Sitting of 4 March 1969

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  COVENT GARDEN MARKET BILL
  Lords Amendments Considered and agreed to.
BOURNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
Read the Third time and passed.
DERBY CORPORATION BILL
Read the Third time and passed.
TEESSIDE CORPORATION BILL
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
WALSALL CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
WELLAND AND NENE (EMPINGHAM RESERVOIR) AND MID-NORTHAMPTONSHIRE WATER BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
WEST BROMWICH CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 13th March at Seven o'clock.
YORK CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 13th March at Seven o'clock.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Agricultural Industry (Direct Taxation)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider reducing the level of direct taxation on those engaged in the agricultural industry; and if he will make a statement.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): I can see no justification for such differentiation in the incidence of direct taxation.
    Mr. Hastings: Does the Chief Secretary realise that the present penal level of direct taxation, plus a bad season, is proving disastrous for a large number of small farmers and growers, and that in my constituency a number are going out of business as a result? Will he please take this seriously?
    Mr. Diamond: I take it very seriously. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that if a grower has a disastrous season and makes no profits he pays no tax on the profits he has not made.

    National Recovery Programme (Recommendations)
    Mr. Maurice Macmillanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what study he has made of the National Recovery Programme's recommendations on the balance of payments and invisible earnings, a copy of which has been sent to him; and what action he intends to take on these recommendations.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Harold Lever): I have seen this document, but I do not accept that there is anything in it which would cause us to modify present policies.
    Mr. Macmillan: Would the hon. Gentleman consider at least modifying the policy of overseas investment, since more money goes out in interest, profit and dividends than comes in through new foreign capital invested here each year, while conversely the cost to the balance of payments of new British investment overseas is greatly exceeded by

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    the interest, profits and dividends earned from part investment? Is he aware that over the last 10 years this has produced £4,172 million plus, on capital account, compared with £168 million minus on current account? Will he not realise that his present investment policy is damaging and not helping our balance of payments?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Longer questions mean fewer questions.
    Mr. Lever: The Government do not discourage foreign investment, they merely require that a good deal of it should be undertaken by foreign borrowing in the interests of the reserves.
    Mr. Turfon: Is not the important thing that this document, using official statistics, shows the fallacy in the Government's policy towards overseas investment?
    Mr. Lever: Only if one made a false assumption about what is the Government's policy on overseas investment.
    Mr. Dickens: Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that overseas investment has been a major factor in causing short-term deficits on the balance of payments in recent years? Will he confirm that it remains the Government's intention to retain all the existing restrictions on overseas investment and, perhaps, have a fresh look at the outflow of further capital to Australia?
    Mr. Lever: The Government's intention is to continue their present policy of favouring overseas investment, but in ways which do not constitute an unwarrantable burden on the reserves.

    Currency (Forward Sales)
    Mr. Maurice Macmillanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what authority British importers are not allowed to sell forward the currency of an exporting country to safeguard themselves against losses resulting from a fall in the prices of imported goods due to a devaluation of the exporting country's currency.
    Mr. Harold Lever: The powers are the same as those to which I referred in my Answer to a similar Question from the hon. Member on 21st January.—[Vol. 776. c. 238–9.]
    Mr. Macmillan: Will the hon. Gentleman consider encouraging this practice, since it is the equivalent of buying sterling forward and it is therefore very helpful in protecting the reserves?
    Mr. Lever: We encourage, as far as it is necessary, United Kingdom traders to buy or sell forward currency in respect of their firm obligations in those currencies.

    Post-War Credits
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now raise the rate of interest on post-war credits or take steps to repay them.
    Mr. Harold Lever: I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget Statement.
    Mr. King: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that if a citizen wants to borrow money he has, on the Government's instructions, to pay something like 10 per cent. interest, yet when the Government take what amounts to a forced loan from the citizen all that he gets is about 3 per cent? Would he agree that this is wrong?
    Mr. Lever: The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have come rather belatedly to the wrong conclusion, that post-war credits amount to a forced loan. This is to over-simplify, and no change in the present arrangements will be justified in our economic situation.

    Capital Gains Tax
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much he estimates will accrue to the Treasury by way of capital gains tax on chattels during the current financial year.
    Mr. Diamond: There is not enough information on which to base an estimate.
    Mr. King: Is it not a fact that the number of exemptions from this duty, the amount evaded and the cost of collection make the tax not worth collecting?
    Mr. Diamond: No, I would not agree with that for a second. I have very useful figures to give the Committee in due course.
    Mr. Grant: In view of the relatively small yield from all Capital Gains Tax, does not the right hon. Gentleman think

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    that there is a case for exempting all capital gains under £1,000?
    Mr. Diamond: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is already an exemption on the disposal of private chattels under £1,000, and that is going quite far enough.

    Customs (Import Deposits) Act
    Mr. Blakerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made in reviewing the categories of goods at present outside Schedule I to the Customs (Import Deposits) Act.
    Mr. Harold Lever: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Silvester) on 25th February.—[Vol. 778, c. 1265.]
    Mr. Blaker: Does not the hon. Gentleman recall telling the House on 3rd December that the Government would look at the whole area to see what was (he best package which could be got together for use of the exemption power given by the Act? Is it not a fact that the only exemption so far is that of briarwood blocks? Is this the package which the hon. Gentleman had in mind?
    Mr. Lever: We have kept the whole area of non-exempted articles under review. Up to now, the only one we have felt we could justly exempt was, as the hon. Gentleman has said, briar-wood blocks.

    Short-term International Borrowing
    Mr. Speedasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will resume the practice under which Her Majesty's Government published figures of short-term inter national borrowing in the Bank of England Quarterly Bulletin.
    Mr. Harold Lever: The Bank of England has continued to give some information about short-term international borrowing in its Quarterly Bulletin. I cannot at this stage add to this information; and what is said in each issue of the Bulletin, and in the quarterly articles in Economic Trends on the balance of payments, will continue to be decided at the time.
    Mr. Speed: Can the hon. Gentleman give a promise that, when the economy is strong enough to face the inter-central
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    bank swaps, he will restore the previous practice carried out by both parties when in office up to July, 1966, and publish them in the Bulletin?
    Mr. Lever: A judgment has always been required on the amount of information to be given and the time to give it. This has been the practice of all Governments, and I am afraid it is inevitable.
    Mr. Ian Macleod: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that prior to 1965 this information was given as quickly as possible in the succeeding Bank of England Quarterly Bulletin? Does not he realise that it is not possible to judge the exact extent of our obligations to other countries unless this practice is reviewed, as the Question requests?
    Mr. Lever: In certain instances we have given more information and in other instances less than our predecessors. It depends on a judgment of the particular information at the particular time. But what we have in common with our predecessors in this respect—and I do not wish to weary the House with quotations—is that it has always been recognised that it is not in the public interest at particular times to give the full details of transactions on the stock equalisation account.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck: On a point of order. Would my hon. Friend be a little less confidential in his replies, because some of us on this side of the House cannot hear him?

    Consumers' Expenditure
    Mr. Alisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his estimate of the reduction in consumers' expenditure necessary in 1969–70 to ensure that the percentage increase over the period between 1964–65 and 1969–70 will be the same as the percentage increase in public expenditure over the same period.
    Mr. Diamond: None, Sir.
    Mr. Alison: Do we understand from that Answer that, far from consumer expenditure being out of line, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer keeps saying, it is public expenditure which has been out of line and consumer expenditure has lagged considerably behind it? Will he stop pillorying consumer expenditure in the way that he has done in recent speeches?
    Mr. Diamond: No. The hon. Gentleman would be wrong to understand that. What the Chancellor of the Exchequer said is quite right. He has referred to consumer expenditure being out of line in recent times, and that is precisely the position.
    Mr. Powell: The Chief Secretary says that no reduction would be necessary. What increase would be necessary?
    Mr. Diamond: I am afraid that I have not worked out the figure.

    Private Sector (Funds)
    Mr. Alisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the alternative funds available to the private sector in the light of his recent recommendation that bank advances should be brought within the prescribed March ceiling.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Roy Jenkins): I do not believe that a quantitative estimate is possible. Bur as the ceiling applies to the major finance houses, as well as to the banks, and as other financial institutions are asked to observe a comparable degree of restraint, the extent to which borrowers who are denied bank finance can obtain funds from alternative sources can be exaggerated.
    Mr. Alison: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in compelling small private borrowers to pay back bank overdrafts, as the policy implies, many of them will sell gilt-edged stock or Government non-marketable securities at a considerable loss, no doubt further depressing the price, and that the net effect will be to give them a substantial loss to set against future capital gains?
    Mr. Jenkins: A lot of hypothetical questions are involved in that supplementary question. While I would not say that it is not possible that what the hon. Gentleman has in mind would not occur in certain circumstances, I would certainly not think that it was likely to be the generality of the position.
    Mr. Barnett: Is it not a fact that in most cases the rate of bank interest does not deter a company or individual from borrowing? Are there not serious implications in the fact that the banks are
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    still refusing to meet my right hon. Friend's instructions, or is he not now insisting on the implementation of his instructions? If not, and if the banks do not comply, I ask my right hon. Friend not to be deterred from using other methods to make sure that they do.
    Mr. Jenkins: I am extremely determined—and the banks are in no doubt about this—that the credit squeeze should be made effective. I believe that my request to the banks—and it is a request rather than instruction—will, and should, be carried out.
    Mr. Higgins: Could the right hon. Gentleman say what effect these measures are likely to have on investment, particularly by small firms?
    Mr. Jenkins: It is impossible to isolate one factor. There is at least one other later Question on this point. I believe that the investment prospects are, on the whole, good at the present time.
    Mr. Clegg: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that during the debates on the import deposit scheme the Financial Secretary said that alternative sources were available to those who could not get the import deposit from the bank? How does that square with his Answer today?
    Mr. Jenkins: There is no contradiction, nor is there evidence of great difficulty being experienced in raising the import deposit.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his directions to the banks are not clear to some banks concerning agriculturalists, who are having a difficult time? Would he make it abundantly clear to the banks that farmers and others involved should have special consideration to meet their problems?
    Mr. Jenkins: The position in relation to the priority categories has been made clear, and is clear, to the banks.
    Mr. Dickens: Although I disagree with the Government's policy in this respect, a very important point of principle is involved. Would my right hon. Friend make it clear whether he intends to use the reserve powers of the Bank of England to enforce the Government directive on the joint stock banks if they continue

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    to be reticent about cutting down bank overdrafts and lending to private borrowers?
    Mr. Jenkins: I have made clear to the banks and to the House that I intend that the credit squeeze should be made effective.

    Interest Rates
    Mr. Tom Boardmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the rate of interest required to preserve real capital values and produce a real after-tax return of 3 per cent. per annum, on the basis of the present standard rate of income tax and a continued fall in the internal purchasing power of the £ sterling at the average rate experienced since October, 1964.
    Mr. Harold Lever: As an exercise in arithmetic, I estimate that between October, 1964, and January, 1969, the required rate of interest would be about 12½ per cent. Such calculations have, of course, no implications for the future.
    Mr. Boardman: Does not this rate show the real measure of the cost of Socialist economic failure? Has it not brought acute hardship to small savers? Is that what the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant when he said that 8 per cent. was not a crisis Bank Rate?
    Mr. Lever: Had the hon. Gentleman asked me to engage in a similar arithmetical operation in respect of periods when the Conservative Party was in power, the result would not have been very dissimilar.
    Mr. Henig: As the decline in the value of sterling which has gone on ever since the war is bound to be a disincentive to private saving, would my hon. Friend try-to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer that when he presents the Budget this year there will be a new scheme of saving offering much higher interest rates in order to restore the position?
    Mr. Lever: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, which is not altogether novel. I will ensure that my right hon. Friend is encouraged in the direction that my hon. Friend wishes.
    Mr. Powell: In view of his reply, is the hon. Gentleman surprised that the
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    Government have been so unsuccessful in borrowing from the public?
    Mr. Lever: The Government have not been unsuccessful in borrowing from the public. In fact, if one aggregates the Government borrowing and that of other fixed-interest borrowers whose borrowing is subject to the same difficulty as that implied by the Question—building societies—the rate of lending is higher than ever in our history.

    Public Expenditure
    Mr. Tom Boardmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will place in the Library a copy of the information on public expenditure he presented to the National Economic Development Council on 5th February, 1969.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I refer the hon. Member to my statement on 20th February, 1969—[Vol. 778, c. 779–81.]—and to Chapter 5 of the Economic Assessment to 1972, which was published on 26th February.
    Mr. Boardman: Did not that statement show that the forecast of public expenditure was the same as in the National Plan, and that the growth projected in the National Plan over five years has not been maintained? How, therefore, does the right hon. Gentleman justify this rate of public expenditure?
    Mr. Jenkins: That question was asked about three times when I made my statement to the House two weeks ago, and was also answered three times. It does not bear relationship to the period that is being dealt with here, which is the next year and the year beyond that, where quite different figures are given.

    Private Sector (Bank Lending)
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will allow an adjustment of the present ceiling on bank lending to the private sector to take account of the decline in the internal purchasing power of the £ sterling since November, 1967.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: No, Sir. Price movements were taken into account, along with many other factors, in determining the level of the bank lending target set last November.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Is it not unfair and discriminatory to reduce bank advances in the private sector by 2 per cent. when public expenditure in money terms is liable to rise by 5½ per cent.? Has not the Chancellor got his priorities wrong? He should be reducing public expenditure, not private expenditure.
    Mr. Jenkins: No, Sir, with respect, the hon. Member has got his comparisons wrong. It is not accurate to compare bank lending with public expenditure. What is accurate and reasonable is to compare public expenditure with private expenditure on the one hand and, on the other, to compare lending to the private sector with borrowing by the public sector. As I pointed out, the reduction which is being carried out this year in public sector borrowing and the central Government borrowing requirement from £1,300 million to nil is a far more dramatic reduction than anything for which I am asking the banks.
    Mr. Barnett: What estimate can the Chancellor give of additional profits accruing to banks from the increase in interest rates? In these circumstances, does he not think it proper and right that the banks should now be made to publish their accounts?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am afraid that I could not give an arithmetical figure to my hon. Friend without notice, but I will bear in mind what he says.
    Mr. Higgins: Is it not a fact that the Chancellor himself never makes comparisons between relevant variables on a consistent basis. Does not the limit on bank lending in percentage terms mean that it is being calculated on a money basis, whereas he says to the House that he has restricted Government borrowing in real terms. May we in future have figures which compare like with like, either both in money terms or both in real terms?
    Mr. Jenkins: In so far as I give answers which the hon. Gentleman does not regard as valid comparisons, it is because I am asked questions which are to a large extent on a false basis. It is quite impossible to express the money flow, which is what bank lending inevitably is, in real terms.

    Clearing Banks (Lending Policy)
    Mr. Silvesterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on how many occasions since October, 1964, there have been changes in Bank of England instructions to the clearing banks about their lending policy; and how many of these occasions have been within the past 12 months.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: The number of requests have been eight and two respectively.
    Mr. Silvester: Is it not the case that frequent changes of this kind are not conducive to good banking practice or to forward planning in industry, and will the Chancellor try to unstrip them in future?
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, Sir. I certainly had no desire to make changes except when I thought they were absolutely necessary.
    Mr. W. Baxter: What attitude does my right hon. Friend take to close companies that have been compelled to dispose of their profits and, by virtue of doing so, are now compelled to apply to the banks for overdrafts which they have never before needed to ask for? How will they be affected by the new practice?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think the question of close companies, which I certainly have regard to and regard as important, arises out of this question.

    Net Borrowing Requirement
    Mr. Silvesterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much of the net borrowing requirement of £1,331 million in the financial year 1967–68 was financed from abroad.
    Mr. Harold Lever: The financing of the central Government borrowing requirement is analysed in some detail in Table 16 of Financial Statistics, which gives the information for which the hon. Member is asking.
    Mr. Silvester: Is it not true that the net borrowing of the central Government from overseas was £1,400 million or thereabouts in this period, and does not that mean that the Government are borrowing from overseas to help support public expenditure at home?
    Mr. Lever: No, Sir. This is a specious and superficial argument. The Government borrows in foreign currency to support the reserves, and borrows in sterling to finance Government expenditure, and the fact that inevitably by reflex action a deficit produces some counterpart funds surplus of opposite consequence does not entitle the hon. Member to make this entirely meaningless conjunction.

    Foreign Loans (Capital and Interest Payments)
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the new total amount of capital and interest, respectively, due to be paid in 1969 on outstanding foreign loans to the United Kingdom Government, including drawings from the International Monetary Fund; and how he plans to finance these payments.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins rose—
    Sir A. V. Harvey: On a point of order. Question No. 66 is almost identical to this Question. Would there not be a saving of time to the House if the Chancellor answered them both together?
    Mr. Speaker: That is a matter for the Minister, not for the Chair.
    Mr. Jenkins: The answer to the Question is: the amounts of capital and interest still to be paid this year on outstanding foreign loans to Her Majesty's Government, including drawings from the I.M.F., are £421 million and £78·5 million respectively. As to the second part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave the hon. Member on 10th December, 1968.—[Vol. 775, c. 84.]
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Is it the Chancellor's intention, as recent inspired leaks have led us to understand, to seek further central bank swap arrangements to enable him to roll over these repayments into the period of the Conservative Government in 1971, and will he tell the House how much this operation will cost in terms of additional interest charges?
    Mr. Jenkins: There have been no inspired leaks, and when I have a statement to make I will make it.
    Mr. Barnett: In a country as wealthy as Britain, would not it be preferable and possible to negotiate a funding for
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    debts which would permit us to forget our neurosis about the balance of payments and permit a higher rate of growth than hitherto?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think that any rearrangement of our debts would obviate the need to get a balance of payments surplus at the earliest possible date.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: As the figures which the Chancellor has given to the House of just under £500 million are clearly in excess of any likely balance of payments surplus this year, will he answer the last part of my hon. Friend's question: how does he plan to finance these payments?
    Mr. Jenkins: No, Sir. I agree that there is a considerable problem of debt management during this year—of course there is—and this makes it necessary to devote the greatest possible attention to building up the surplus as quickly as possible. When I have a statement to make on the detailed point I will do so.

    Balance of Payments
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he still expects to achieve a balance of payments surplus at an annual rate of £500 million by the second half of 1969.
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what improvements in balance of payments occurred in the last quarter of 1968.
    Mr. Joplingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the balance of payments deficit in 1968; and what is now his forecast for 1969.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I have nothing to add to the Answers I gave to similar Questions on 28th January.—[Vol. 776, c. 1090.]
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: How does the Chancellor reconcile that Answer and those Answers with the statement he made last month that a swing of £1,000 million was required from the rate of deficit prevailing in the first half of 1968? As this was an annual rate of £1,000 million, did not that statement mean that he was not expecting a surplus at all this year?
    Mr. Jenkins: No. I think the hon. Member is trying elaborately and strenuously to construct upon a rather narrow basis a structure which the basis will not bear.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer now pretending to the House of Commons that the statement he made on 28th January has any relevance today, when last week he raised the Bank Rate to 8 per cent., thus profoundly affecting the level of costs for all capital goods for export?
    Mr. Jenkins: I think it has at least as much relevance as that question from the hon. Member.
    Mr. Jopling: Will the Chancellor make sure in 1969 that no Treasury considerations stop our balance of payments being helped as much as possible by the agricultural industry in achieving the targets of "Little Neddy?"
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not quite understand what the hon. Member means by a "Treasury consideration". I can only assume that he means by this that I should take a completely indifferent attitude from the point of view of public expenditure, which means that his question is a, striking example of what we see so often, a desire for economy in public expenditure in general accompanied by a desire for extravagance in particular.
    Mr. Henig: As the balance of payments figures have shown a marked improvement over the last six months, does not my right hon. Friend find it surprising that hon. Gentlemen opposite should deliberately cast doubt on these figures in order to give a misleading impression abroad?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not find that surprising.

    Visible Trade Balance (United States Military Aircraft)
    Mr. Martenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now include the payments for military aircraft from the United States of America in the regular balance of visible trade and payments figures.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Minister of State Board of Trade on 12th
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    February to the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery).—[Vol. 777, c. 25.]
    Mr. Marten: As military aircraft are shipments just as much as anything else, can the Chancellor say what is the reason for excluding them from the visible trade balance?
    Mr. Jenkins: Apart from anything else, the progress payments on these aircraft have been included in the balance of payments figures since 1964, which was substantially before the aircraft started to be delivered. Having done this, if we were now to include them in the normal way in visible imports, we would be publishing them twice.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is it not a fact that under Tory Governments such figures were concealed?
    Mr. Jenkins: I think that I would prefer not to pronounce on that.

    Defence Expenditure
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of the gross national product goes on the current official defence estimate; what is the proportion when other defence expenditure is included; and how the latter figure compares with that of four years ago.
    Mr. Diamond: The Defence budget was equivalent to 6·5 per cent. of the gross national product in 1965–66 and it is expected that in 1969–70 it will be under 6 per cent. Total defence expenditure, including "other military defence", was equivalent to 6·7 per cent. of the gross national product in 1965–66 and it is expected that in 1969–70 it will be under 6¼ per cent.
    Mr. Allaun: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Britain's proportion exceeds that of every other country in Western Europe, barring Portugal? If we came down to the average level, would there not be a vast sum available annually for housing, health and other purposes?
    Mr. Diamond: I must look up the figures.
    Mr. David Howell: When the Defence Estimate next year is deducted from the total public expenditure growth forecast of 1 per cent., what percentage growth in the Civil Estimates remains?
    Mr. Diamond: I should not like to chance that offhand, but it must be a tiny difference from 1 per cent.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Speaking as a Treasury Minister, would my right hon. Friend like to see defence expenditure cut further?
    Mr. Diamond: I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.
    Mr. Powell: What rate of growth in the gross national product next year compared with this year does the right hon. Gentleman's figures assume?
    Mr. Diamond: I have made a rough calculation, because I am unable to make a precise one. That is why I have given the figures approximately.

    National Savings
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now make a statement on the new methods of stimulating national savings.
    Mr. Grantasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made by the working party on contractual savings schemes set up in 1968.
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will initiate discussions with the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry on the possibilities of introducing a contractual savings scheme for the small saver based on cost of living bonds, interest being paid annually and a cost of living bonus to revalue the bond in line with changes in the index of retail prices being paid at the end of the contractual period.
    Mr. Harold Lever: My right hon. Friend has no statement to make on savings at present.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Having regard to the debilitated condition of national savings throughout this year, which continued to fall, thus demonstrating lack of confidence in the Government, and the increase in the Bank Rate to 8 per cent., is the Chancellor aware that any new National Savings Certificate now issued will have to rise from 20s. to 30s. in five years to be competitive with alternative forms of saving?
    Mr. Lever: I take it that the hon. Gentleman will not be offended if I say that the information which he has conveyed in the hearing of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor would come to him without the shock of novelty.
    Mr. Grant: Is the Financial Secretary aware that the C.B.I. and the Wider Share Ownership Council, at the request of the Chancellor, have done a great deal of work on contractual savings schemes and are disappointed not to have had an earlier response from him? Does he think that any scheme should be broadly based upon investment generally or confined solely to national savings?
    Mr. Lever: We are grateful for the support, the work and the encouragement of the C.B.I., Wider Share Ownership and other bodies. This work is proceeding, and my right hon. Friend has no statement to make.
    Mr. Grant: What about the second part of my question?
    Mr. Lever: To answer the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question would be to anticipate my right hon. Friend's action upon this matter.
    Mr. Alan Lee Williams: Although the National Savings Movement has done and is doing a good job, would my hon. Friend consider setting up a Departmental inquiry into the future organisation of the movement?
    Mr. Lever: That does not immediately strike me as being a useful inquiry, since we keep all these efforts under continuous and close review.
    Mr. Richard Wainwright: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in present and foreseeable national circumstances, genuine savings invested in British industry are as much in the public interest as savings lent to the Exchequer?
    Mr. Lever: We welcome all thrift.

    Private Motorists
    Mr. Brooksasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what number of private motorists have their motoring costs borne by the companies for which they work, as disclosed by the tax returns made to

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    the Inland Revenue; and what is the total amount of payment made annually by public authorities to employees in the form of car allowances.
    Mr. Diamond: I regret that the information requested is not available.
    Mr. Brooks: Does not my right hon. Friend consider, in the first place, that information of this sort should be available to expose the extent of the hidden "perks" available to some employees? Would he not agree that many private motorists feel resentment at the uniform imposition of taxes across the board, and is there not a case for some form of differential tax for those who have to meet the whole burden out of their own pockets?
    Mr. Diamond: As my hon. Friend knows, the attempt of the Revenue is to see that the taxation burden falls equitably.

    Overseas Expenditure
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the average amount of net Government expenditure overseas over the last five years; and what was the amount of net Government expenditure overseas for 1968.
    Mr. Diamond: Most imports and exports on Government account are not separately distinguished from private sector transactions. Apart from these the average annual net overseas expenditure by the Government during the five years 1963–67 was £692 million. For 1968 the full figures will not be available until next September's Pink Book but most will be published next week.
    Mr. Ridsdale: How much of this was for economic grants-in-aid, and would it not be better to finance these from loans from the World Bank as a direct charge to the balance of payments?
    Mr. Diamond: I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Mr. John Lee: How much of this goes to countries which can afford to finance themselves?
    Mr. Diamond: I have not those figures available.

    Capital and Interest (Average Net Flow)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the average net flow of capital and interest to the United Kingdom over the last five years; and what was the amount for 1968.
    Sir G. Nabarro: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order to adjourn the House while the Chancellor of the Exchequer collects his wits?
    Mr. Speaker: That would not be in order. He must collect them.
    Mr. Sheldon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It would seem from the figures given in answer to No. 25 that that should have been the answer to No. 26. It may be that we have not received the answer to No. 25.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer be good enough to occupy the interval by answering a Question which is of considerable public interest and importance and which seems unlikely to be reached orally, namely, No. 67, which asks the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what authority——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The number will do for this point of order.
    Mr. Harold Lever: I must apologise to the House for the delay, which is due to some confusion on my part.
    The information asked for will be found in the appropriate Government publications.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Assuming that that Answer is to my Question, do not the figures show that there has been a large net increase of capital investment in this country and that, far from restricting private investment abroad, the Government should look to restricting their own overseas expenditure?
    Mr. Lever: It is not that we restrict investment abroad. We merely, at different times and in different areas of the world, seek to encourage that investment to take place in a manner most helpful to our reserves.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: To which appropriate Government publication is the Financial Secretary referring?
    Mr. Lever: I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find the most informative are the Bank of England Bulletin and Economic Trends.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: On a point of order. Referring to my previous point of order, would it be opportune now for Question No. 66 to be answered?
    Mr. Speaker: That question was asked in another form earlier.
    Mr. Biffen: On a point of order. I think that the hon. Gentleman will find, upon studying HANSARD tomorrow, that he did in fact answer Question No. 6 on the basis that it was a net flow of capital interest from the United Kingdom, not to the United Kingdom. Ought he not to have a chance to——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.

    Corporation Tax (Retirement Pensioners' Halls)
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will seek to exclude retirement pensioners' halls from corporation tax, in view of the fact that it restricts pensioners' activities; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Harold Lever: Much as I sympathise with my hon. Friend's object, I cannot accept his suggestion where the purposes of the relevant body are not wholly charitable.
    Mr. Dempsey: But is it not rather mean that pensioners who own premises and make limited profits from such ownership, such as the Sunnyside Pensioners in Coatbridge, should be paying tax? Would not the money paid to the Exchequer be better spent on outings, entertainment and promoting the care of the aged members belonging to that association?
    Mr. Lever: Where clubs qualify for exemption as charities those advantages follow. Where they do not, they cannot follow.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Peter Mills to ask Question No. 28.
    Mr. Peter Mills: No. 28—if they can find it, Mr. Speaker.

    Selective Employment Tax and Purchase Tax
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will undertake to replace the selective employment tax and purchase tax by some form of general sales tax in his forthcoming Budget.
    Mr. Diamond rose—
    Mr. Harold Lever: Estimates for the——
    Mr. Diamond: I am answering Question No. 28, Mr. Speaker.
    The hon. Member will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget Statement.
    Mr. Mills: Will the Minister bear in mind the very unfair Selective Employment Tax which discriminates against one of our biggest currency earners—the tourist industry?
    Mr. Diamond: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the great steps which have been taken by the Government to help the tourist industry.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, would you instruct Treasury Ministers at 3.30 to answer some of the Questions that, owing to their incompetence, have been passed over in the last few minutes?
    Mr. Speaker: It is a good point, but I have no power to instruct Ministers.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Further to that point of order. Is it not a gross contempt of the House for a Minister to appear so ill-prepared?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Sir Brandon Rhys Williams to ask Question No. 29.
    Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order. Would it not be better if the Chancellor of the Exchequer gracefully asked the permission of the House to continue answering the Questions which he has missed?
    Mr. Speaker: No doubt the Chancellor heard what the hon. Lady said.
    Mr. Alison: On a point of order.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Points of order cut out hon. Members' Questions.
    Mr. Alison: Mr. Speaker, will you ask the Chief Secretary to check whether he gave the right answer to Question No. 28? I believe that it should have come from the Financial Secretary.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Sir Brandon Rhys Williams to ask Question No. 29.

    United States Investments
    Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what benefit he estimates will accrue to the balance of payments in 1969 through the purchase of British assets by United States investors; and what provision he will make for payment of interest and royalties on new and extant United States investments.
    Mr. Harold Lever: It is not the practice to publish forecasts of overseas investment and earnings.
    Sir B. Rhys Williams: We understand that a great deal of American investment is taking place this year. Would it not be better to stop selling Britain to the Americans and to put the proceeds straight into the current account?
    Mr. Lever: That is an altogether different matter from the Question asked.

  MEMBERS (OUTSIDE INTERESTS)
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing number of hon. Members being remunerated by outside bodies, he will re-examine the desirability of legislation to establish a public register of such interests.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): The Government are continuing to watch the position, but I think that, in the future as in the past, it would be right to rely on hon. Members to make their position clear in any case which affected their responsibilities to the House and to party colleagues.
  Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend recollect that on 15th October last year he answered a similar Question to the effect that the Government were urgently inquiring into this matter but
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  were not yet in a position to make a statement? Meanwhile, we have had disclosures by Mr. Cecil King and others which show the great urgency of taking special steps to inform the public of the private business of Members?
  The Prime Minister: I remember the Answer I gave last October. We inquired into the particular case before us. I was not satisfied that that led to a case for the kind of proposals that my hon. Friend has put forward.
  Sir D. Walker-Smith: While not dissenting from the generality of the Prime Minister's Answer, may I ask whether he agrees that there is a great disparity between the position of hon. Members of this House, as explained in Erskine May, and the position of elected members of local authorities where the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1933, despite modification by the 1964 Act, still place very precise and rigid inhibitions on the pecuniary interests of those elected members? Would it not be well, therefore, for the House, in a dispassionate and objective way, to review its own position with a view to clarification?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that there was some improvement in the position of local authority members in that respect in, I think, the 1966 Act.
  Sir D. Walker-Smith: The 1964 Act.
  The Prime Minister: It may well be 1964.
  Concerning the question of disparities, I have always felt that there is a disparity between the treatment of hon. Members who are directors or substantial shareholders, who invariably declare their interests, and those who may have some public relations commission on behalf of a firm. I think the right thing here, as has been said by hon. Members in all parts of the House, is that no Member should approach another Member or Minister without making his position clear so that that position can be suitably discounted. If there is a feeling that more should be done by the House—it is not a matter for the Government—certainly there could be discussions about it through the usual channels.

  RHODESIA
  Mr. Wallasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement on Rhodesia.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what I said in reply to Questions on 18th February.—[Vol. 778, c. 203–6.]
  Mr. Wall: Has the Prime Minister received any new proposals from Salisbury? While recognising that it takes two to reach a compromise, may I ask whether this is still the right hon. Gentleman's aim or does he intend to let matters drift until a compromise is no longer possible?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that by agreement it was understood that for the time being there would be no public statement on any exchange of messages. All that I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that I have not seen anything which remotely represents an acceptance of the "Fearless" terms, which hon. Members on both sides felt went far enough in this respect.
  There is no question of letting things drift. The "Fearless" terms have been on the Salisbury table now for three or four months.
  Mr. Hooley: Has my right hon. Friend any intention of having a further meeting with Mr. Smith?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The position is clear and it is known to the House. The "Fearless" terms are there. Any suggestion that they would be picked up and made the subject of an agreement we would act on.
  Mr. Heath: We had an exchange across the Floor of the House nearly three weeks ago about the second guarantee for the first principle, in which the Prime Minister made it clear that he was prepared to accept two guarantees which were purely internal, and he referred me to the statement of the present Minister without Portfolio.
  But the Prime Minister's second proposal included a reference to the Privy Council, and the Judicial Committee had to decide whether this was a suitable matter for a referendum. As the Prime Minister will accept two internal guarantees, will he now consider with his right
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  hon. Friend how to devise this without any external reference?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is correct in his account of what my right hon. Friend said. I should have added that when my right hon. Friend discussed this matter with Mr. Smith in Salisbury in the autumn, having put forward two proposals for internal guarantees activated by the Privy Council, he also said that he was willing to discuss with Mr. Smith an internal guarantee activated from within Rhodesia. No interest was shown in that proposition.
  Mr. Heath: Would such a proposal exclude any reference to the Privy Council, even though activated inside Rhodesia?
  The Prime Minister: The mechanism described to the House by my right hon. Friend involved Privy Council motivation. What I have just said—and I thought it right to say this in view of the right hon. Gentleman's question—is that we made it clear to Mr. Smith that we were prepared to consider a second guarantee, separate from the legislature itself, a non-Parliamentary guarantee, activated and operated wholly within Rhodesia.

  CONCORDE AIRCRAFT
  Mr. Brooksasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite President de Gaulle to Great Britain to discuss the future of the Concorde project.
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite President de Gaulle to London to discuss the future of the Concorde.
  The Prime Minister: I have no plans to do so, Sir.
  Mr. Brooks: That is another pleasure forgone. Will my right hon. Friend agree that despite the justified pride and pleasure which the British and French people feel in the maiden flight of the Concorde last Sunday, it is necessary to recall that the costs of the venture left the ground long ago, at an even higher rate of climb? Is it not therefore important that in judging the commercial success of this venture we should know what proportion of the research and

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  development costs it is intended to recover by a levy on sales?
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that the House will join my hon. Friend in the pleasure and satisfaction of the success of the first flight. There are many more developments to be overcome in the purely technical and proving stage, but my hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology has given a series of answers over the last few months on the question of what is being done to evaluate the economic prospects of the aircraft. The development costs have escalated, and naturally both Governments wish to be satisfied about the economic viability of the aircraft as a production job.
  Mr. Dalyell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us who, until 1967, were less enthusiastic about Concorde, now feel that it ought to go into production, provided that the technical and proving aspects are all right?
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be aware that, as my right hon. Friend said, the test must be whether it looks like being a commercial success. There has been a strong lack of enthusiasm about the escalation of the costs, and at the same time a great deal of pleasure at the technical success of the plane up to this point. We have to be satisfied about its commercial viability before either Government would want to go forward.
  Mr. Fortescue: Would not the Prime Minister agree that 1969 should be declared a close season for Concorde knocking?

  MEMBERS' CONSTITUENCIES (MINISTERIAL COMMUNICATIONS)
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Prime Minister if it remains the practice of his Administration that Ministers do not communicate directly and personally on offical matters relating to their departments with individual constituents of hon. Members without reference to the hon. Member concerned.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to my reply to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman on 8th November, 1966.—[Vol. 735, c. 1144.]
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the Prime Minister aware—I think he is—that his right hon. Friend the Minister for Public Building and Works a short time ago was communicating on a matter relating to his Department, the future of Richmond Park, with the Chairman of Kingston Labour Party without informing the hon. Member concerned? Is not this a breach of the normal standard of good manners for Ministers?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to let me know the case he had in mind. It was not dissimilar from the case he raised in 1966, when I said that I could not think of any general rule that could be laid down. In this case I think the Minister asked for views from the public, and it was right that he should reply to those members of the public who gave their views, including the gentleman in question. I think the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that it would be very tedious, not only for Ministers, but for Members, if every letter from every Minister to every member of the public was sent to the constituency Member.
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: Does the Prime Minister acknowledge the convention that when Ministers make premeditated public speaking engagements in another Member's constituency they should give some warning to the Member concerned? If the Prime Minister agrees with that, will he remind his Cabinet colleagues about it?
  The Prime Minister: I agree about this. I recognise that under successive Governments it has not always been 100 per cent. honoured. Successive Prime Ministers have tried to see that it was. If the hon. Gentleman, or any other hon. Member, knows of particular cases, and they let me know, I shall do my best to see that these things are honoured in future.

  PRESIDENT DE GAULLE
  Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister if he will invite President de Gaulle to make an official visit to London.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a Ques
  stion by my hon. Friend the Member for

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  Lancaster (Mr. Henig) on 27th February.—[Vol. 778, c. 346.]
  Mr. Marten: As this is, I think, the first opportunity that the Prime Minister has had at the Dispatch Box to explain his talks with the German Chancellor about General de Gaulle's proposals, does not the right hon. Gentleman welcome this opportunity to explain, which I am afraid the Foreign Secretary entirely failed to do, why it was that these proposals were disclosed to Dr. Kiesinger before clearance with the French?
  The Prime Minister: This was very carefully explained by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in a statement which led to about 40 to 45 minutes of questions thereafter, and was then fully debated by the House. The House reached a pretty definite conclusion about it.
  Mr. Heffer: Reverting to the original Question, would not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be a sensible proposition to invite the General to this country? Is it not agreed that it is important to heal the breach between France and Britain? Should not we discuss the General's ideas in depth, and not lightly brush them aside?
  The Prime Minister: Even before the issue blew up with, as my right hon. Friend said, the disclosures in Figaro and France Soir, the French Government had been told of our great willingness to enter into talks with the President following the discussion with Her Majesty's Ambassador, and this has been repeated since.
  Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Prime Minister whether he will meet the President of France to discuss the recent misunderstanding between France and the United Kingdom.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. and learned Member to my reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) earlier today.
  Sir Knox Cunningham: As it was the Prime Minister who talked to Dr. Kiesinger, would it not be better if he used his personal diplomacy with President de Gaulle to put the matter right?
  The Prime Minister: As I said earlier, my right hon. Friend explained all the
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  facts to the House. The matter was fully debated, and was the subject of a great deal of questioning, more than can be done at Question Time, and the House reached a conclusion on it. I cannot remember how the hon. and learned Gentleman voted.
  Mr. Winnick: Will my right hon. Friend consider discussing with the President of France, and perhaps the Russians as well, the question of arms supplies to both sides in the Nigerian civil war? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is mounting public anxiety over reports of the bombing of civilians in Biafra?
  The Prime Minister: I answered that last Thursday in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). We would be very happy at any time to have discussions with the French Government, and in the particular case with the Soviet Government, or any other Government, on this and the other questions raised by hon. Members.
  Mr. Turton: Will the right hon. Gentleman try to put the position right by sending an apology to the French President for leaking information to the Germans?
  The Prime Minister: There is nothing to apologise about in this matter. As was explained by my right hon. Friend, and as the House accepted by a very large majority last week, the position is that if, meeting the Head of the German Government on that occasion, I had withheld this information which concerned our common purpose, and the common purpose of all concerned is the unity of Europe, it would have been extremely discreditable.
  Mr. Heath: One of the differences between the two countries is the question of the future meetings of the Western European Union. Do the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister hold the view, which seems to be widely shared, that the Council can meet without all members being present, but cannot reach decisions without all members being present? If that is so, surely the approval of the budget requires all the members of the Council to be present? Until this matter is sorted out with France, how can the

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  W.E.U. get its budget? What does the Prime Minister intend to do about this?
  The Prime Minister: I agree that there is some difference between the freedom to meet, which we have always asserted, and the question of decisions, but I do not accept in full, nor does by right hon. Friend, the interpretation which the right hon. Gentleman has put upon the W.E.U. Treaty. It has been the desire of both parties in this House to make a reality of W.E.U. We all regret that this is being frustrated at present. I hope that, as a result of discussions with others in Europe, as well as ourselves, we can resume the normal working of W.E.U.
  Mr. Henig: Is it true that, when my right hon. Friend discussed this matter with Dr. Kiesinger, the latter advised him to talk to President de Gaulle? If my right hon. Friend is not prepared to meet President de Gaulle, what proposals have the Government for improving Anglo-French relations?
  The Prime Minister: The first part of that question, the statement attributed to Herr Kiesinger, is not correct. The second part is, similarly, based on a misapprehension because my hon. Friend heard me say a moment or two ago that, before the leak in Figaro and France Soir and again since, Her Majesty's Government have made clear their very warm willingness to have talks with the French Government at any level.
  Mr. Heath: May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little further on this, because it is very important? Is he saying specifically that his view is that the Western European Union budget can be approved without the French Government being present?
  The Prime Minister: I would want notice of the question about the budget, which is at the moment a hypothetical question, since there is no reason to think that the French Government are going to frustrate the working of W.E.U. by not helping in the budget. But, on all the interpretations in relation to W.E.U. which have been the subject of controversy, the line taken by my right hon. Friend is that which we are legally advised is the right interpretation, and it has been fully supported by five of the six members in Europe.
  Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: In the event of President de Gaulle visiting this country to iron out these difficulties, will the Prime Minister give us a solemn undertaking—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."]—wait for this one—that he will not "upstage" the President and hog the centre of the television cameras, as he did on the arrival of President Nixon?
  The Prime Minister: I will do my best in this matter. I will certainly undertake that I will not take either the President of France or the President of the United States in an open car in a tour of the London marginal seats a month before the General Election, nor will I have a party political broadcast with such a President, as was done in 1959, exactly a month before the election.
  Sir Knox Cunningham: On a point of Order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I will raise the matter again.
  Mr. Bagier: On a point of order. I have noticed that, in the last few months, the hon. and learned Member for Antrim, South (Sir Knox Cunningham) has given notice many times about his intention to raise matters on the Adjournment. Are you, Mr. Speaker, unfairly discriminating against him in his demands? I want passionately to hear from him.
  Mr. Speaker: It is not unknown for hon. Members who declare their intention of seeking to raise a matter on the Adjournment to fail to seek to do so. This declaration has become one of the means of protesting against the nature of an Answer which hon. Members do not like.
  Sir Knox Cunningham: Further to that point of order. It will not have escaped your notice, Mr. Speaker, that I did not say that I would raise the matter on the Adjournment, I will certainly raise the matter again.
  Mr. Speaker: If the hon. and learned Gentleman said that, then he was out of order.

  CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (SPEECH)
  Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech on economic policy by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Birmingham

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  Chamber of Commerce on 8th January, 1969, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: Does the Prime Minister realise that I have had as much difficulty in trying to obtain a copy of this speech as my hon. Friends had earlier in obtaining answers to their Questions, because apparently it was written on the back of an envelope? Will the Prime Minister discourage his Ministers from this sort of doodling, since it resulted, in the case of the Chancellor, in an error of £500 million?
  The Prime Minister: I am not sure that if the hon. Gentleman had had the full text he would have been able to make much more of it than he has. There is no rule in our public life that all speeches should be fully scripted. I can remember a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, later Prime Minister, who, in what he called a pipe dream, talked of cutting, virtually promising to cut, defence expenditure to £700 million a year within three or four years.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: On a point of order. I wonder whether you can give us some guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a situation which arose during Question Time this afternoon. It will be within your recollection that we lost perhaps five minutes of the Chancellor's Question Time. In view of the fact that the Chancellor answers Questions, effectively, only once every six weeks, might it not be possible for this situation to be put right by the Chancellor staying at the head of the list again for next week, so that he can have a fresh bash then?
  Mr. Speaker: I have no power to change the rota of Ministers for Question Time. It is an ingenious suggestion which the hon. Member makes, but I cannot take note of it.

NORTHERN IRELAND (PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR ADMINISTRATION)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement.
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Hon. Members will recall that, following the disturbances in Londonderry last October, I had discussions with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in London on 4th November. When I reported on this meeting to the House the following day, I mentioned that one of the main subjects covered in the talks was the appointment of a Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration in Northern Ireland.
On 22nd November, the Northern Ireland Government announced their intention to make such an appointment, and, in the Queen's Speech opening the Northern Ireland Parliament on 17th December, it was stated that legislation for this purpose would be introduced in the New Year.
Subsequently, the Northern Ireland Government raised with Her Majesty's Government the idea that the first holder of the office of Northern Ireland Parliamentary Commissioner should be Sir Edmund Compton, who would undertake this work in addition to holding the office of Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration for the United Kingdom.
Her Majesty's Government took the view that, provided this did not prevent Sir Edmund from fully discharging the duties which this House has laid upon him, such an appointment would give great confidence both in Northern Ireland and here. Accordingly, after soundings through the usual channels, and after members of our Select Committee on the Parliamentary Commissioner had been informally advised, I informed the Northern Ireland Government that there was no objection from the side of the United Kingdom Government to this appointment.
Accordingly, the Northern Ireland Prime Minister has today informed the new Parliament at Stormont that, subject to the passage into law of a Bill which is to be introduced next week, the Northern Ireland Government will advise the Governor to appoint Sir Edmund Compton as the first holder of the office of Parliamentary Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The House will realise that, in this capacity, he would act on complaints referred to him by members of the Northern Ireland Parliament in relation to actions of the Northern Ireland Departments. He would

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not investigate such actions on behalf of members of this House.
I understand that Sir Edmund Compton would be willing to accept the Northern. Ireland appointment subject to the terms of the Bill as passed into law and to appropriate provision of staff and other administrative arrangements by the Northern Ireland Government. His intention would be so to organise the work as to ensure that he can continue the full discharge of his duties on behalf of Members of this House under the United Kingdom Act.
Mr. Heath: On this side of the House, we welcome the fact that the Northern Ireland Government should have invited so distinguished a person as Sir Edmund to assume this office and that the Government take the view that, provided he feels able to do it, they should agree. Presumably, if he found that the burden of work put upon him from this House became too great to allow him to occupy both offices, he would then be able to raise it again.
Would the Prime Minister make one thing clear? He has informally discussed this with the Select Committee. Would he make it clear that the Select Committee will be occupied only with Sir Edmund's work in regard to this House and not that in regard to Stormont?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, that is the position. The Select Committee will carry out the duties which this House has given to it in relation to Departments for which the United Kingdom Government is responsible.
I thought it right to make this statement because Sir Edmund is an Officer of this House who is being released, even if only part-time, for this work. I am sure that the House will welcome this. Certainly, if he felt that the burden of work in Belfast led to his being unable to discharge his duties here, anyone who knows him knows that he would report back and take appropriate action.
Sir Edmund is already acting in Northern Ireland on fairly frequent visits for the purpose of examining complaints which have been made about the effects on individuals in Northern Ireland of actions of United Kingdom Departments on the initiative of hon. Members of this House.
Mr. William Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend say whether this means an increase in staff in this country for the Parliamentary Commissioner? Further, can he say whether, if the terms of reference of the Parliamentary Commissioner are extended, as I hope they will be, to local government in this country, that will apply equally in Northern Ireland?
The Prime Minister: I do not think that there is any need for additional staff or expenditure here. As I have said, Sir Edmund already has to travel in Northern Ireland a great deal, but if this turned out to be wrong the point envisaged by the Leader of the Opposition would probably take effect.
The question of the possible extension of functions of our own Parliamentary Commissioner to fields so far not covered in the Bill—my hon. Friend mentioned, for example, local government—would be an act of the United Kingdom Parliament and would affect only conditions here. It would be a separate matter for Stormont, but I am happy to say that, on my understanding, the Bill which is being introduced there will faithfully reflect in the Northern Ireland setting everything that we have done ourselves in our own Measure establishing our own Parliamentary Commissioner.
Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Select Committee for the Parliamentary Commissioner is grateful to the Government for have made known to them this proposal, that it has considered the proposal and is satisfied that the acceptance of this additional appointment by the Parliamentary Commissioner would not interfere in any way, so far as the members of the Committee can see, with his duties to this House?
The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Member.
Mr. Whitaker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side of the House warmly welcome the extension of the Omsbudsman to Northern Ireland, which we have advocated for a period of time? Will he consider extending the Omsbudsman's remit to local government in both parts as soon as possible? Failing that, will he alternatively consider extending the anti-discriminatory provisions of the

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Race Relations Act to religion to cover Ulster so as to remove a cause of bitterness which could easily be remedied?
The Prime Minister: We are continually considering the possibility of proposing legislation to extend the functions of the Parliamentary Commissioner in the work he does for this House in the United Kingdom setting.
The point raised about the Race Relations Act goes very wide of the question of secondment part-time of Sir Edmund Compton to fulfil the duties which will be laid upon the Northern Ireland Omsbudsman under the Bill shortly to be introduced in the Stormont Parliament.
Mr. Thorpe: Is the Prime Minister aware that there are great advantages in having the same distinguished person attached to both countries, thereby ensuring a similar approach and similar standards, but, since we are being asked to share the services of someone who works for this House, may we have the Prime Minister's assurance that Sir Edmund will be equally uninhibited in investigating Ministerial complaints and not be precluded from considering Ministerial acts in Northern Ireland which arise out of interpretation of the Special Powers Act?
The Prime Minister: I agree very much and welcome what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the desirability, at any rate in the earlier stages of this experiment, of having the same Officer in both countries. At a suitable time, no doubt, Northern Ireland will find its own indigenous Ombudsman for the purpose. He will not be inhibited in any way in fulfilling his duties there except by the limitations of the Act under which he will be operating. It is, therefore, a question of waiting to see the text of the Bill, but on all the information available to me the Bill which subsequently will become an Act will follow that passed by this House.
Captain Orr: Is the Prime Minister aware that I can confirm what he has said, in so far as I am able, that it is the intention that the Bill will be on precisely similar lines to the Act which governs the work of the Parliamentary Commissioner here and that we warmly
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welcome, as practically everyone in this House of Commons does, the establishment of an Ombudsman for Northern Ireland?
The Prime Minister: The hon. and gallant Member has confirmed what I said about the intentions of the Bill. No one can say what Act will finally emerge, but Sir Edmund Compton has said that he is willing to accept the Northern Ireland appointment subject to the terms of the Bill as passed into law.
Mr. John Lee: Can we be assured that this appointment, welcome as it may be, is in no way regarded as a soft alternative to the implementation of Section 75 of the Government of Ireland Act if Captain O'Neill is brought down by his primitive tribesmen?
The Prime Minister: That raises a different question, but this statement raises something to which the whole House has attached importance, one of the six points which I discussed with Captain O'Neill last November, namely, the appointment of an Ombudsman for Northern Ireland legislation. It does not raise any of the questions that my hon. Friend has in mind.
Mr. John Hall: Will the Prime Minister agree that under the Act the powers of the Parliamentary Commissioner are so circumscribed, and his ability to intervene in matters of real importance so restricted, that the Ombudsman should be able to take in his stride his duties in Northern Ireland? Would the right hon. Gentleman therefore not consider extending the powers of the Parliamentary Commissioner, so as to give him some real power?
The Prime Minister: As I said, some of these matters are being studied. The hon. Member will recall that many of these things were debated when the Bill was going through the House, and Amendments were moved, but it was felt that with this radical new experiment it was right to start in a fairly modest way. Some of my hon. Friends, when we were the Opposition, pressed for years to get this innovation made, but the then Government refused to have an Ombudsman at all. I should like to see the Ombudsman's powers progressively widened, as I believe the hon. Member would, after we have had a little more experience.

BILLS PRESENTED
  PARLIAMENT (NO. 4)
  Bill to require the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the elected Members of Parliament for the enactment of any measure seeking to change the Constitution in respect of the composition of either House of Parliament, presented by the Earl of Dalkeith; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 103.]
  PARLIAMENT (NO. 5)
  Bill to remove the powers of the House of Lords to delay Bills after the end of the third year of any Parliament and to delay or otherwise affect the course of any subordinate legislation, presented by Mr. Robert Sheldon; supported by Mr. Eric S. Heffer, Mr. Richard Crawshaw, Mr. Joel Barnett, Dr. John Dunwoody, Mr. David Marquand, Mr. Paul B. Rose, Mr. Michael Barnes, Mr. Brian Walden, Mr. Sydney Bidwell, Mr. Edward Rowlands and Mr. John P. Mackintosh; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 108]

PROTECTION FROM DOGS
3.47 p.m.
Mr. Peter Doig: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to compel dog owners to display a warning notice on their outside gate; and for connected purposes.
I seek, in my Bill, to achieve three things. First, that the warning be given on the outside gate, "Beware of the dog," or a similar notice. Secondly, that a letterbox should be provided on the outside gate by dog owners. Thirdly, to establish beyond all doubt the legal right of people to use an approved dog repellant in self-defence. Shortly after introducing a similar Bill some time ago I received a number of letters and I will quote from three of them. One person wrote:
"I am writing to express my support for your Bill. The attitude of the rest of the House of Commons was the usual one of merriment. I can only say that they were displaying an appalling ignorance of the real problem".
Another wrote:
"As a postman, I feel that this dog menace is getting out of hand. The number of dog bites will not decrease until postmen are issued with a repellant."
The third wrote:
"My sister has been savaged in the road by a couple of dogs"—[Laughter.]
I do not understand why hon. Members find that amusing. The people who have written to me complaining of the merriment shown by the House will feel even more disturbed by the attitude of hon. Members now. If those who laugh at this sort of tragedy had to watch their relatives being savaged by dogs, they would take a different attitude.
I also received a letter or two against the Bill. I will quote from only one to show the type of person who is against a Measure of this sort. He wrote:
"I saw one postman terrifying three little corgis who were playfully snapping at his heels. One postman who kicks a dog makes it bad for all postmen who meet that dog."
I have with me a newspaper cutting headed:
"Dog attacks the Queen's horse".
It tells of how a dog attacked the Queen's horse while she was in Chile, Fortunately,
"… a burly policeman nearby gave it a heavy kick and the dog scampered into the crowd, whimpering in pain."

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If that had not happened, the Queen might have been in serious trouble.
This problem can easily be solved because there is an effective dog repellant available. It has been developed by a firm in Georgia, America. Its trade name is "Halt" and I have sent details of the product to the Postmaster-General and the Home Secretary. The repellant was developed more than six years ago by two university lecturers and a veterinary surgeon. It does no permanent damage to dogs, but simply destroys their aggressive tendencies for about 15 minutes.
This repellant was tested by the United States Post Office in Miami, Baltimore, Los Angeles and Detroit. The results showed a reduction of 85 per cent. in the number of postmen bitten by dogs in each of those places—a remarkable achievement. Because of the successful results of these tests this repellant is now standard issue to all postmen who request it in the United States, Canada and Switzerland. It is also in use by nearly all the major public utility companies in America. After six years of use, it is said that no difficulties have arisen either with dog owners or the public generally.
Having written to the Postmaster-General on the subject, I received from his private secretary what I can only describe as a most unsatisfactory reply which appeared to minimise the problem. The letter said
"Although it is true that some countries, particularly those where there is more likely to be a problem with rabies, equip their postmen with chemical spray animal repellants, we have not adopted similar measures in this country for a variety of reasons. For example, we could encounter difficulties under the Protection of Animals Act, 1911 and the Firearms Act, 1937, and no doubt we would receive spirited opposition from the animal-loving public. It is not true that dog bites pose one of the most serious safety problems in the Post Office. There are over 2½ million dogs licensed in this country and about 20 million delivery points. From a total staff of 101,000 postmen, only about 300 a year suffer relatively severe dog bites".
That minimised the problem, because if 300 postmen a year suffer relatively severe dog bites it means that many of them probably had to go to hospital for treatment, apart from the question of the many who were almost frightened to death.
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But even if "only" 300 are severely injured, the Post Office must take the problem seriously. The phrase in the letter
"…we could encounter difficulties under the Protection of Animals Act, 1911 and the Firearms Act, 1937…"
set me wondering, because I read a similar phrase in a letter from the British agents of the American firm to which I referred. That letter stated:
"For your information, when we received details of this product the writer made contact with the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Universities Federation for Animal Welfare and the Safety Services Branch of the General Post Office and also discussed the possible use of this product with the Metropolitan Police (Forensic Science Laboratory). All these contacts were not enthusiastic over the possible introduction of this product because of the risk of misuse."
There seems to be another reason why the Post Office is not using this effective repellant, and I suspect that police objections may be behind it. I wonder why that should be? If dogs worry sheep—and sometimes they kill them—farmers often shoot and kill the dogs. If dogs kill foxes, which are themselves vicious killers, there is a league against what are called cruel sports, which receives much public support. Thus, while action is taken against dogs which worry sheep and foxes, if they worry human beings that is of no consequence. This would appear to be the attitude adopted in Britain and I find it a strange sense of priorities.
Only last week I read of a young girl who was taking her poodle on a lead for a walk when it was attacked by an alsatian. The girl tried to kick the alsatian away and at that point it turned on her. A man who was passing also tried to kick the alsatian away, but the man and girl had to stand helplessly by while the alsatian killed the poodle. This brings me——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that he is seeking leave to introduce a Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule.
Mr. Doig: I will end my speech as quickly as possible, Mr. Speaker.
My aim is simply to enable people, and particularly postmen, to have the use of an effective repellant; and I have drawn attention to one which is effective and

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which does no permanent damage to dogs.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Peter Doig, Mr. Adam Hunter, Mr. Tom MacMillan, and Mrs. Alice Cullen.

PROTECTION FROM DOGS
Bill to compel dog owners to display a warning notice on their outside gate; and for connected purposes, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday 14th March and to be printed. [Bill 105.]

DEFENCE
Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Secretary of State to move the Motion, may I announce that, of the two Amendments on the Order Paper, the one in the names of the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. Friends—in line 1, leave out from 'House' to end and add:
'regrets that Government policies are reducing the strength of the armed forces to a level inadequate to maintain the security of this country and its overseas interests'—
and the one in the names of the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) and his hon. Friends, in line 1, leave out from 'House' to end and add:
'whilst welcoming the decision to end British military bases east of Suez and the envisaged saving in military expenditure, regrets that this has not yet achieved a substantial reduction in spending in 1969–70; notes with alarm the adoption of a military strategy based upon the early use of nuclear weapons; and proposes that Great Britain's share of the gross national product devoted to defence be reduced to the average of other Western European countries, thereby making possible the expansion of housing, health, education, pensions, industrial re-equipment and overseas aid programmes to which Labour is committed'—
I have selected the Amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
4.0 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): I beg to move,
That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1969, contained in Command Paper No. 3927.
This year's Defence White Paper sets the seal on a historic transformation of Britain's defence policy. It brings our defence posture into line with the priorities set by our foreign policy and the constraints imposed by our economic position. In doing so, it gives our Armed Forces a rôle in whose stability they can have confidence, because it is one of vital importance to the security and survival of the British people and carries a cost which the nation can afford.
For the first time for over a decade the Defence Estimates for 1969–70 are actually lower than those of the preceding year. At the same price level they are £111 million lower than last year and are nearly £700 million lower than the estimate of this year's expenditure made by the Conservative Government in 1964. In fact, they bring the total saving on the Conservative programme in Labour's first five years to over £2,000 million.

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If anybody is disposed to dispute these figures, they will find in an Answer to a Question by an hon. Member last Friday full details of the Conservative costings as prepared by the Ministry of Defence under Mr. Thorneycroft, as he then was, and approved by the Treasury under the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). If the right hon. Gentleman disagrees with that, he can say why tomorrow.
This year we shall be spending under 6 per cent. of our gross national product on defence, compared with the 7 per cent. planned by the Conservative Government in 1964. But this is not the end of the story.
By 1972–73 our defence expenditure will be about 5 per cent. of our gross national product, the same as the European average in 1968. So we shall have achieved the objective set for us in the Amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun). For this reason, I confidently expect him and his co-signatories to support the Government's Motion in the Lobby on Wednesday.
I must warn my hon. Friend, however—and I shall deal with this point later in my speech—that to change N.A.T.O.'s existing strategy in the way he seems to suggest in another part of his Amendment would not only require the introduction of conscription in Britain, but would also make it quite impossible to limit our defence expenditure to the level he suggests.
Mr. James Dickens: My right hon. Friend said that our defence expenditure in 1972–73 would be 5 per cent. of the gross national product, the same as the European average. Is he including East European countries in that average, because the figures for the E.E.C. countries and for the West European members of N.A.T.O. are about 4 per cent., as my right hon. Friend is well aware?
Mr. Healey: Full details were given in reply to a Question asked by an hon. Member last week. The average in Western Europe is 5 per cent. and in Eastern Europe it is 8 per cent.
Economic circumstances would, in my opinion, have compelled any British Government to cut the programme planned by the right hon. Gentleman opposite
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in 1964. But there is another constraint which is almost as limiting as the economic one—I refer to manpower. Quite apart from social changes which, other things being equal, are liable to increase the attractions of civilian compared with Service life over the next decade, over the next five years, owing to a fall in the birth rate about 15 years ago, there will be a serious fall in the number of fit young men available to volunteer.
Indeed, the catchment area, if I may call it that, is falling faster than the requirement for new recruits to our diminishing forces. When the run-down of our forces is complete, we shall need to recruit male other ranks steadily at the rate of at least 35,000 a year, compared with the 44,000 a year in 1964.
But even if we succeeded in recruiting the same proportion of fit young men who had completed their education as we were able to recruit on average during the years 1965 and 1966, when recruiting was going well, we could expect to recruit only about 29,500 in 1974–75 because of the decrease forecast in the size of the total field.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for Administration will be dealing in detail with this problem, and how we hope to solve it, in his speech to morrow, if he catches your eye Mr. Speaker. I mention it now not only because it is one of the most difficult problems any Government would have to face, but also because I believe, as I told the House two years ago, that demographic problems would have forced some reduction in Britain's capability and commitments even if the economic constraints had not existed.
When the Government's decisions have been fully carried out in a few years' time, the number of British troops stationed outside the United Kingdom will be down by a half. It has already been cut by a quarter. The money previously planned to be spent on defence will be down by a third. It has already been cut by a quarter. Defence manpower will have been cut by one-fifth.
We are able to reduce expenditure very much more than we are reducing the size of the forces because we are getting better value for money on defence equipment; and, because we are reducing our

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commitments even more than we are reducing expenditure, we can hope not only to relieve the over-stretch from which our forces were suffering five years ago, but also to make a more effective contribution to that rôle which is vital to our survival as a nation—the prevention of war in Europe through N.A.T.O.
Apart from better value for money on equipment, the savings we are making in money and manpower result exclusively from cutting commitments and capabilities outside Europe and from winding up our military bases in the Gulf and South-East Asia. The House has debated these decisions on many occasions and I have no doubt that right hon. Gentlemen opposite will concentrate much of their attack on them again. I would only say that, thanks to the way in which we have phased our withdrawals and the vigorous diplomacy with which they have been accompanied, there is no sign of the appalling consequences that the party opposite predicted.
More progress has been made towards solving the local problems of the Persian Gulf during the past 12 months than during the previous 20 years, and as hon. Members may have gathered from an interesting supplement in The Times yesterday. As for British economic interests in the Gulf, which hon. Members opposite seem to regard as justifying a permanent British military presence there—HON. MEMBERS: "Continuing."] All right, a continuing presence there—I was interested to see from the Financial Times on 20th February, 1969, that Mr. David Barran, Chairman of Shell Transport and Trading, representing by far the most important British economic interest in the Gulf, took an optimistic view of the oil industry's future in the Middle East.
Mr. Barran said this:
"Despite the situation created by the withdrawal of British forces from the Middle East after 1971, despite the Russian enigma, despite the economic and political pressures from the producing countries, I think the system will remain broadly in balance and that the oil will continue to flow."
He added that progress in the Gulf in this past year had been faster than he had expected.
In South-East Asia, too, progress in meeting the situation resulting from our withdrawal has been smooth and continuous.
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Co-operation between Malaysia and Singapore, the indispensable condition for stability in the area, has grown steadily closer. I know that the House will welcome the fact that Australia and New Zealand have now announced what forces they will keep in the area after our withdrawal is complete. This should enable us to make substantial progress on some of the remaining problems when we meet in Canberra in June.
The Government will do their best within the framework of their general policy to assist the other four Commonwealth countries to cope with any practical problems which may rise in the transition.
The concentration of our forces in Europe and the seas around it mean that we can make a more effective contribution to the prevention of war in the area where war would put our own survival as a people directly at stake. As soon as confrontation ended in the autumn of 1966, we began to improve the manning of units in B.A.O.R. which had been seriously over-stretched by the demands of our forces in the Far East and South Arabia. The total strength of B.A.O.R., including 6 Brigade, is now about 53,000, compared with under 50,000 in 1964. We hope that we shall be able to add about another 1,000 men during the next 12 months.
The House is already aware that we have committed to N.A.T.O. 3rd Division along with 16 Parachute Brigade and the S.A.S. Regiment and the integral transport and combat aircraft of 38 Group—constituting a mobile task force of about 20,000 men capable of rapid deployment to any part of N.A.T.O.'s front from the Arctic to Eastern Turkey. One brigade of 3rd Division is now exercising with Danish and German troops in Schleswig-Holstein.
The increase in our air and naval forces in the Mediterranean, which we announced in November, adds another 6,500 men to our immediate N.A.T.O. contribution. With the reorganisation of our reserve forces, we can, in a crisis, increase our contribution to N.A.T.O. by another 65,000 men, reinforcements far better trained and equipped than ever in the past. Indeed, 10,000 of them train every year in Germany with the units to which they will be attached.

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I believe that this increase in our contribution to N.A.T.O. is broadly welcome to right hon. and hon. Members opposite, but I am bound to remind them that it is possible only because of decisions concerning our rôle outside Europe which they have steadfastly opposed, and still oppose.
Incidentally, I saw a weird story in a newspaper today suggesting that we have assigned virtually all our forces in this country to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, for the defence of the Continent, without giving him any responsibility for the defence of this country, and that he is, therefore, free to strip us of these forces if he sees fit, leaving us completely defenceless. This, of course, is totally untrue—indeed, almost the reverse of the truth, like so many stories from the same source. It is remarkable, when ignorance combines with malice, what extraordinary fantasies can be produced.
Allied Command, Europe, is the area of SACEUR's authority in peace; the area of his responsibility in war is wider. The present arrangement is not new; it is as old as the N.A.T.O. Alliance itself, and it was designed to take account of our very considerable responsibilities outside N.A.T.O., some of which will continue in the future. But although the United Kingdom is not within SACEUR's area of command, all three major N.A.T.O. commanders—S A C E U R, SACLANT and CINCHAN—have a vital responsibility for the security of this country. Both SACLANT and CINCHAN have headquarters and substantial maritime forces based in the United Kingdom; Fighter Command is assigned to SACEUR, but the United Kingdom is regarded as one of the air defence regions of N.A.T.O., and forms part of the integrated N.A.T.O. air defence system covering Europe as a whole.
Thus, SACEUR has the responsibility for the air defence of this country, as for all other N.A.T.O. regions. This country would be protected in war, like every other member of N.A.T.O. How this would be done is a matter of contingency planning—in which, of course, we play a full part, as did the previous Conservative Government
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I now turn to the problem which I know is worrying many hon. Members. Why are we now making these increases in our contribution to N.A.T.O. and what strategy are they intended to serve? The answer to the first question is simple, even if not all my hon. Friends will agree with it. We are making these increases because we believe, particularly in the light of the Czech crisis and continuing Soviet pressure on Berlin, that they are a necessary contribution by Britain towards maintaining the strength and solidarity of N.A.T.O.; and we believe that, unless the strength and solidarity of N.A.T.O. are maintained, the danger of a third world war would be immeasurably increased.
I do not claim, of course, that the maintenance of N.A.T.O. is by itself an adequate aim for British foreign policy. But I do claim that it is a pre-condition of achieving our wider aims. The purpose of N.A.T.O. is not to produce heaven on earth. It is to prevent hell on earth. When I say hell on earth, I am thinking not only of the tragic fate of the Czech people at this moment—although I believe that, without N.A.T.O., the peoples of Western and Southern Europe could not expect immunity from such a fate.
When I say hell on earth, I am thinking about a third world war; for I believe that a general war between East and West in Europe could scarcely fail to end in the thermonuclear holocaust. If N.A.T.O. can help to prevent this it is justifying all we spend on it, even if it is not capable by itself of dealing with all the other problems to which mankind is heir.
That is my opinion and the opinion of the Government, and I believe that it is the view of the overwhelming majority of the British people and of the other peoples who owe the security they have enjoyed over the past 20 years to the existence of N.A.T.O.
I now turn to the more complicated problem of N.A.T.O.'s strategic needs in the European theatre. We must here draw a clear distinction between the problem in the Mediterranean and the problem on the European mainland.
Although there has been a substantial increase in Soviet naval activity in the Mediterranean during the last 18 months,

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the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean, as I have said to the House before, is still vastly outnumbered by the N.A.T.O. fleets and is operating without any fighter cover in an inland sea surrounded by allied aircraft. In war, the Soviet ships in the Mediterranean would be as vulnerable as would a N.A.T.O. squadron operating in war in the Gulf of Finland, and for just the same reasons.
But, as I have repeatedly made clear, I do not believe that the Soviet fleet in the Mediterranean is intended to pose a serious military threat to N.A.T.O. Its function is essentially political—by its visible presence to demonstrate Soviet interest in the area—to reassure friends and to frighten enemies.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he thinks the purpose of the Russian fleet in other parts of the world is also political?
Mr. Healey: I think that the purpose in the Atlantic area is a serious purpose in the case of war. In the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean, the purpose is political, although the scale of the presence is very much lower than the scale of the presence in the Mediterranean.
The increases which Britain has made in her Mediterranean forces are directly related to this problem. First, we have provided reconnaissance aircraft so that N.A.T.O. can be continuously aware of the precise position of Soviet ships at all times; and, secondly, we have provided a naval presence of our own as a counter to the political rôle of the Soviet units.
I believe that there is still much scope for closer co-operation among the N.A.T.O. maritime forces in the Mediterranean, although the House will be well aware of some of the political difficulties, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean. But I believe that the decision in principle to establish an "on call" N.A.T.O. naval force in the Mediterranean which the Defence Planning Committee of N.A.T.O. took in January is at least a good first step, and, as the House knows, we are planning to contribute to it.
On the mainland of Europe the military balance is very different from that in the Mediterranean. The Warsaw Pact forces here have a substantial preponderance in fighting power, particularly in tanks—a
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preponderance which is well illustrated in the annual publication of the Institute for Strategic Studies entitled "The Military Balance". Given this preponderance, N.A.T.O. has always recognised that its ability to prevent war would depend on having the right mixture of conventional and nuclear forces, deployed to operate according to a realistic strategic concept.
I will now describe that strategic concept as clearly and fully as I can; I make no apology for repeating things I have said on many occasions before in the House, since some people seem to think that what I wrote on N.A.T.O.s nuclear strategy in a paper for a recent conference in Munich were purely personal views which had never been expressed before in public.
On the contrary, they were the views of this Government, of all previous British Governments since N.A.T.O. was set up, and are the views of the present British Opposition—as according to the German Press, the Conservative representatives at the Munich conference, including the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), who is the defence spokesman of the Opposition, made clear at the time, and I give them credit for it. The strategy I described is the strategy of N.A.T.O. as a whole, and is supported with particular force by the European members of N.A.T.O., who are in the front line.
I know that public discussion of these dreadful issues is alarming and even repulsive for many people. But nuclear weapons, like diseases, exist whether we like it or not. We can hope to prevent their use, as we can hope to prevent disease, only if we are prepared to face the problem they present without allowing our emotions to rule our heads.
On the other hand, we must avoid surrendering to the opposite temptation, to which so many academic strategists sometimes fall victim, and isolating the military problem from the political context in which it is presented in real life. We must not assume that we are dealing at all times with an enemy who has an absolute will to destroy us and an infinte capacity for calculating the military means to that end. The real world, thank God, is not a Manichean struggle between good and evil; our political

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adversaries are usually ordinary men subject to ordinary temptations, and often facing predicaments from which they may be as anxious to escape as we are.
What are the facts? N.A.T.O. has never had the ability to defeat an all-out conventional attack by the Warsaw Powers with conventional means alone. For this reason it has always aimed to deter such an attack by presenting a potential aggressor with unacceptable risks of escalation, if need be to the strategic nuclear exchange. This policy was first laid down in terms by a British Government in the Defence White Paper presented by a Conservative Government in 1954, 15 years ago. It has remained the view of every British Government since then. It has been repeatedly stated in this House and, I admit, no less repeatedly criticised by a minority of Members on both sides of the House—by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and Lord Wigg, under this Administration, and by Lord Head and Lord Wigg under the last, and the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) has played his part.
Lord Head, Lord Wigg and the hon. Gentleman, however, have shown more candour than some of those who share their views. They frankly admit that any rational alternative to the existing N.A.T.O. strategy would require Britain to reintroduce conscription and to spend a great deal more on defence. This is what my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East will not admit—and, of course, it means that his Amendment is a contradiction in terms.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it was that on 16th April, 1957 the Opposition of the day moved an Amendment which included the words:
"… further regrets the undue dependence on the ultimate deterrent on which the policy set out in the White Paper appears to be based;"?
The right hon. Gentleman voted for the Amendment, although N.A.T.O. and B.A.O.R. were then stronger in manpower than they are now.
Mr. Healey: I can see that it is a mistake for me to give way too much, for I intended to deal with that in detail
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in a moment. In fact, I shall deal with it right away.
There is also an important difference between the present Labour Government and their Conservative predecessors. Previous Conservative Governments essentially supported the concept of an automatic nuclear response—what the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) described approvingly last year in this House as "the trip wire that trips".
We on our side have always been concerned to keep the threshold of nuclear response above the level at which N.A.T.O. would have to use nuclear weapons automatically in a situation in which Soviet intentions were ambiguous, in which they might not really be bent on aggression against the West at all. I believe that our anxiety on this score is even more cogent in a period when the Russian empire in Eastern Europe is crumbling and we may expect further explosions like those we have already seen in the past in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Berlin.
In fact Conservative Governments reduced the flexibility of N.A.T.O.'s response to possible aggression where the present Labour Government have increased it. In 1954, the Conservative Government accepted a treaty obligation to maintain British forces on the Continent at the strength of four divisions—till the end of the century. The ink was scarcely dry on the Paris Treaty before they decided to get out of the commitment. They renegotiated Britain's obligation from the equivalent of 77,000 men in B.A.O.R. down to 55,000 men. But once they ended conscription they never reached even this reduced target. At the same time, they tied British policy to the concept of massive retaliation with strategic nuclear weapons.
The 1958 Defence White Paper said—and I quote it:
"It must be well understood that, if Russia were to launch a major attack on them"
—the Western Powers—
"even with conventional forces only they would have to hit back with strategic nuclear weapons."
By 1964, Mr. Thorneycroft had qualified this as follows:
"The truth is that there has been no commander of the N.A.T.O forces that I have known who has not realised that at a fairly

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early stage, if there was a major conventional assault upon Europe, some tactical nuclear weapons would be used, and that there was a real and great possibility of that kind of exchange escalating into major thermo-nuclear war. This is one of the reasons why large-scale conventional war in Europe—or anywhere else—is, on the whole, unlikely."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February 1964; Vol. 690, c. 444.]
The Labour Government have consistently tried to achieve greater flexibility in N.A.T.O. strategy by increasing the conventional capability of the alliance. Besides the substantial increase in Britain's own conventional contribution to N.A.T.O. which I have already described, we have argued successfully for a change in N.A.T.O. strategy which will maximise the conventional capability of the forces which Governments are prepared to make available—for example, by releasing for use in the conventional phase of operations aircraft hitherto withheld for nuclear interdiction. We have thus enabled the alliance to adopt a more flexible strategy.
As a result, N.A.T.O. now aims to deal with limited conflicts which may arise through accident or miscalculation and to ensure that there is time to identify major aggression and then to decide on the use of nuclear weapons if necessary. But there is all the difference in the world between this and the idea of trying to build forces which could defeat a large-scale, deliberate conventional attack by conventional means only. None of our European allies would accept this as an objective even if we in Britain were prepared to.
The peoples of Western Europe want to prevent a war, not to fight or to win one, and anyone who saw Coventry, Hamburg or Rotterdam after the last conventional war will know why. Thus, if confidence in N.A.T.O.'s collective nuclear strategy for deterring major aggression were to decline, the result would not be the build-up of larger conventional forces on the Continent, but pressure for national nuclear deterrent forces. The French example proves this. If ever those pressures were to grow in Germany they might produce the one situation in which Moscow might be tempted into pre-emptive war.
In the second place, there is no reason to believe that a major conventional build-up in Western Europe would not be
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met by a parallel build-up in the conventional forces of the Warsaw Powers, so the attempt to provide a conventional alternative to N.A.T.O. strategy would have had no effect except to intensify the arms race.
These are hard facts which my hon. Friends who opposed N.A.T.O.'s current strategy must face. To take their advice would produce exactly the opposite of the result they intend. There is another possibility. The Soviet leaders have always made it clear that they expect a major war in Europe to be nuclear from the start. If they ever felt that America was prepared to sacrifice Europe rather than risk the survival of the United States, and if, as a result, they decided to attack Western Europe, they would even be less inhibited in using nuclear weapons themselves, since in so doing they would not, according to this theory, be making American nuclear strategic retaliation more likely.
The fact is that the only strategy which is compatible with the views and interests of the European N.A.T.O. members involves a mixture of conventional and nuclear capability along the lines which N.A.T.O. is now following. I believe that in terms of numbers of major units the present level of N.A.T.O.'s conventional forces is a reasonable one, though there is still scope for improving their capability through better training and equipment, and, above all, I believe, through closer defence collaboration among the European members of N.A.T.O.—a major objective of British policy. I believe that the current level is entirely adequate to deter—or suppress—without the use of nuclear weapons anything short of a deliberate major attack.
N.A.T.O. must, however, accept that any reduction in its conventional capability below the present level would involve heavier dependence on the nuclear component of its deterrent strategy, and thereby reduce the flexibility of N.A.T.O.'s reaction to the unforeseen. I hope that my hon. Friends will bear this in mind.
By maintaining the strength and solidarity of N.A.T.O. along existing lines I believe that we can prevent a third world war; and this must be our permanent objective. But Defence Ministers must

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also consider what should be done if the deterrent fails and we face a large-scale conventional invasion which our own conventional forces cannot for long resist.
Some argue, like the Conservative Government in 1958, that in such a case N.A.T.O. should have immediate recourse to strategic nuclear weapons. Others say that N.A.T.O. should aim to fight and win the ground battle in Europe by the use of tactical nuclear weapons as a sort of superior artillery. I do not believe that either of these alternatives is acceptable.
When the use of strategic nuclear weapons is likely to involve the deaths of hundreds of millions of human beings, N.A.T.O. must aim to bring the conflict to a close before either side is tempted or compelled to initiate an all-out nuclear exchange. This means that N.A.T.O.'s conventional forces—many of which possess nuclear weapons suitable for tactical use—must be able, once the scale of the attack and the nature of the aggressor's intentions have been identified, to do two things: first, to demonstrate that we are determined to resist—and to use nuclear weapons if necessary; secondly, to win sufficient time to enable diplomatic action to bring the aggressor to his senses or, failing that, to enable the awesome decision to cross the nuclear threshold to be taken in full knowledge of the facts.
But I do not believe that N.A.T.O. could reasonably plan on the unrestricted use of so-called tactical nuclear weapons as its initial response in such a case. Apart from the fact that the unrestricted use of tactical weapons would devastate the European Continent as completely as a strategic thermonuclear exchange, they would not in themselves compensate for shortage of manpower in the long run; and all the exercises and war games that we and others have played suggest that this is the case.
The Nuclear Planning Group of N.A.T.O. is now studying the way out of this situation and the German Minister of Defence and I will shortly be putting proposals to it for new guidelines. I believe that there is an answer to the problem and that we are now on the way to finding it.
I realise that many of my hon. Friends will feel that even to consider such contingencies is immoral in itself. I disagree.
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It is only by thinking these appalling problems through in advance that one can hope to ensure that they never arise in practice. I ask my hon. Friends to appreciate that such a contingency would, in effect, never arise in practice unless the Warsaw Powers launched a large-scale deliberate invasion or aggression against Western Europe. I hope that in such a case a strategy which gives more hope of avoiding the automatic destruction of humanity is something which they would welcome rather than reject. This is the kind of strategy which we are now working out in N.A.T.O. largely as a result of British initiatives.
I wonder whether I could ask the Leader of the Opposition if he would answer a couple of questions here. He has often said he favours a pooling of British and French nuclear forces. Could he tell us now or perhaps in his speech tomorrow—as he failed to tell us when I asked him a year ago—does he believe that the pooling of British and French nuclear forces should take place inside or outside N.A.T.O.? And, secondly, what sort of strategy should this pooling of nuclear resources serve? I hope that tomorrow at least, with one year's notice, the right hon. Gentleman may be able to answer the first and most fundamental of those questions.
No one whose professional duty it is thus to think about the unthinkable can fail to recognise the overwhelming arguments for trying to solve the problem of security in the atomic age by cooperation rather than conflict between the Powers—arguments which should be moving the Soviet Government at this moment towards serious negotiation with the United States. For I am sure that we can all agree at least on this: that the only certain security which any of us can hope to enjoy in the long run must spring from co-operation between the Powers in the limitation and control of armaments rather than from the unlimited pursuit of superiority in an unending arms race.
We must aim to use the stability which N.A.T.O. has brought about to try to obtain a permanent improvement in relations between East and West. This means parity of action by both sides. It cannot be one-sided. Successful deterrence offers this best foundation for détente.

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Last summer, N.A.T.O. hoped to start a dialogue with the Soviet Union on the mutual limitation and reduction of forces in Europe. At Reykjavik, the N.A.T.O. Council put a formal proposal to the Soviet Union for such talks. The Russian response was the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I will not disguise from the House that this was a serious setback to our hopes of solving the problem in this way.
Now the United States proposes tackling the problem at the other end. The whole House will be united in hoping that President Nixon is soon able to open the era of negotiation of which he talked so eloquently during his recent visit to Europe, by starting a meaningful dialogue with the Soviet leaders on the limitation of offensive and defensive strategic missile systems. The degree of flexibility that he can enjoy in such negotiations will depend critically, as he himself made clear, on the confidence of America's European allies that they will be fully and continuously consulted on any issues affecting the security of Europe which may arise.
I am glad to say that these assurances were given by the President to all the Governments he visited and to the N.A.T.O. Council, because the maintenance of adequate strength and solidarity in N.A.T.O. is, indeed, not only a condition of our common security in the world as we have known it over the last 20 years. It will be no less necessary a condition of our security if, as we all hope and pray, the long conflict between Russia and the West can now be replaced by co-operation at least in these areas where continued conflict spells disaster for us all. I believe that the contribution which Britain is able to make to N.A.T.O., in this field may prove crucial to the fulfilment of our hopes.
May I say a word on the Amendments before the House. The issues we will be debating during the next two days are the most serious which can ever be presented to the House. They involve not only the security of the British people. They involve the survival of the human race.
There is scope for honest argument on many aspects of these issues—though I hope that where we agree with one another we shall not be ashamed to say
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so. All I ask of those who disagree is that they should face honestly the full political and economic implications of their views, as well as the military implications.
Some of those who have signed the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East are pacifists; they oppose the very concept of defence and, I suppose, would like no defence expenditure at all—and no defence strategy. Others take a more optimistic view of Soviet behaviour than most of us are able to in the light of Czechoslovakia and Berlin. But many, I suspect, share the general opinion that there would be grave risk to peace if N.A.T.O. were dismantled.
I ask them to consider what I have said and decide whether they can honestly reconcile the demand for further cuts in defence with the demand for less reliance on nuclear weapons. I believe that they will be forced to the conclusion that the Government's policy represents the best reconciliation which can be devised between the demands of our economic and social priorities and the needs of our security.
To those who support the Opposition Amendment I have this to say. If they think that our planned forces are inadequate for our security, let them tell us what size and shape of forces they consider adequate—they must have some idea of this if they consider the present size and shape inadequate—and how they would pay for them out of the lower taxes they have promised. For five years they have opposed every single decision we have taken—decisions which have already saved the nation £2,000 million. Would they seek to restore these cuts or not? If they answer this question, and only if they do, will the British people at last know the cost of their defence policy and be able to decide whether it is worth the money.
To all who plan to speak in the debate I address one final word. They will have an attentive audience outside this Chamber—among the people of Britain, among the people of countries which are allied with us, and of countries which consider themselves our enemies. But the most attentive audience will be the men and women of our own Armed Services.
Their morale is high—as the re-engagement figures show. Their equipment is

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the most modern in Europe and they know how to use it. They have standards of professional skill second to none in our society. Their dedication to their job is unparalleled among our people.
I hope that those who speak will bear them in mind before they allow the heat of debate to carry them from an attack on the policy of the Government, to which I do not object, to a general denigration of the military capability of the Services themselves.
Whatever may be said of the Government's policy over the last five years—and a lot will be said during the debate in the next two days—at the end of this long and painful process of revising our whole position in the world, we have, and will maintain, a Navy, Army and Air Force which, both in professional skill and in modern equipment, possess a capability certainly unsurpassed, and I believe unparalleled, among our European allies. They are doing a job which is vital to the security of the British people. They provide the necessary foundation for every other undertaking in our national life.
Let us see that they, at least, have the credit they deserve.
4.24 p.m.
Mr. Geoffrey Rippon: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
' regrets that Government policies are reducing the strength of the armed forces to a level inadequate to maintain the security of this country and its overseas interests'.
I am bound to say at the outset that nothing in the Secretary of State's apologia this afternoon has done anything to diminish our anxieties. I agree with him that the issues which we will be facing in these two days of debate are as serious as any this House could discuss. We on this side of the House are prepared to face those issues and to accept the consequences of our policies more squarely and fairly than the Secretary of State has done.
After seven defence White Papers in four and a half years, and given the situation in which we find ourselves, it seems that only the combination of complacency and arrogance which has characterised this Administration could
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produce the opening sentences of the statement on defence and the declaration that:
"The re-orientation of our defence policy is now completed, and the Armed Forces can look forward to a period of stability and progress."
We have heard that one before, in at least six out of the seven White Papers. Unfortunately, all that we can look forward to under present policies, is a steady run-down of personnel and equipment in all three Services, and in the Reserves, to what we on this side of the House can only regard as a dangerously low level. The Secretary of State has been at great pains to say, once again, that the Government regard cuts in defence expenditure as one of the most important items in the Estimates. Surely that cannot be regarded as an end in itself? Either we are adequately defended or we are not? That is the issue which the Secretary of State has told us we ought to be debating. Of course, we can spend a good deal of time analysing the statistical claims made about cuts achieved in terms of constant prices, whatever they may be, or percentages of the gross national product.
In our view the exercise is unrewarding and the conclusions completely bogus if no regard is paid at all to the differing circumstances of each year, and to such factors as the ending of confrontation with Indonesia, or the rising level of military defence expenditure other than on the Defence Budget, on such items as progress payments for imported military aircraft. Even the boast that the Defence Budget for 1969–70 is £5 million lower at current prices than for the current year does not really bear close scrutiny. It excludes the cost of pay increases which, quite unreasonably and unwarrantably, have been held up to await the Report of the Prices and Incomes Board. I presume we will have to deal later with this by way of Supplementary Estimates.
Certainly the claims of defence must be considered in conjunction with the need to maintain, indeed now to rebuild, the country's financial and economic strength. That does not mean that we can start with an arbitrary sum and then squeeze defence costs into a fixed budget, quite regardless of the basic requirements of foreign and defence policy.

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What I hope the House will do in the next two days is what the Secretary of State in effect invited us to do—when he had finished his party political polemic—namely, to consider our defence needs in the context of the current international situation, in terms of current costs and current capabilities, and in the light of future requirements as far as we can judge them.
For my part, I will try to do what he suggested and seek to define the common ground between the Government and the Opposition as well as to indicate the areas of division and doubt. By the same token, I hope that the Secretary of State will use his "second strike capability" rather more responsibility than he has in the past. In particular, I hope that he will not go on producing, as he did at the end of the last debate, this completely spurious assertion that Conservative policy would involve an additional annual expenditure of £600 million a year—he now says £700 million. He adds £100 million just out of the air. He makes this claim for the next five years, based on 1964 costings, which he has brought forward indefinitely and which would inevitably have been subjected to the ordinary annual Budgetary scrutiny, in the light of changing circumstances such as the end of confrontation.
Mr. Michael Foot: If the figure is not £700 million, as my right hon. Friend has said, would the right hon. and learned Member say what the figure is?
Mr. Rippon: It is quite impossible to base any figure on the basis of 1964 long-term costings projected into the 1970s. It is a completely unreal figure. What we are asking the Secretary of State to do is to consider these matters in relation to current costs and current circumstances. He might tell us what the current costs are of stationing forces in the Far East, in a way that he has always resolutely refused to do.
We do not pretend to think that we can provide adequate defence on the cheap. We are prepared to pay the price to secure our interests and fulfil our commitments. What that price will be must depend on the situation we find when we get into office. What we will say, and this is fair, is that we will indicate those areas in which we think more needs to
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be done, and those options which we think the Government should keep open. In return, we are entitled to ask that the Secretary of State should base such costings as he is able to give on current circumstances, and to recognise that much of what we are talking about relates to joint action within our alliances to which our precise contribution must be a matter of negotiation.
We on this side of the House cannot undertake to undo all the mistakes which have been made, but we give a pledge to our friends and allies throughout the world that it is not our practice to break treaties or to abandon commitments unilaterally. It will be our purpose to restore our national honour wherever it has been betrayed and to repair weaknesses in our defences wherever we find them. We shall debate the Government's policy against that background.
Mr. E. Shinwell: I wish to be helpful to the right hon. Gentleman. I ask him not to trouble about costing, but will he furnish some information on the Opposition's views about the manning of our forces, the equipment required, and what aircraft carriers and missile ships are required? Then we may be able to estimate the cost.
Mr. Rippon: That is what I have offered to do. If the right hon. Gentleman will listen, he will get the information for which he asks.
On N.A.T.O. and the Western Alliance, we agree that our major contribution must be to the Western Alliance, to N.A.T.O. and Europe, but we do not agree that it should be concentrated there to the extent that the Government propose. On Europe, we cannot act in isolation; we must plan and act in concert with our allies. Our part is to produce the forces, and the reserves, which we have promised and to make our contribution in formulating the joint strategy of the Alliance.
Today, as the Secretary of State said, that strategy is based on the assumption that nuclear escalation will be the only alternative to surrender in Europe in the event of a major Soviet attack. The Government now accept—not all right hon. Members of the Government used to accept it—that Britain makes a significant and cost-effective contribution to the nuclear deterrent. The Polaris submarine

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force alone will possess a strike power equivalent to 30,000 Hiroshimas. Considering that four submarines possess this awesome power, that it has been provided at a capital cost of about £350 million spread over nine to ten years, and requires less than 2 per cent. of the defence budget to maintain, it is perhaps surprising that the Government refuse even to consider purchasing, as we intended, the fifth submarine. That can be costed. The Secretary of State said that in normal circumstances we would expect to have two submarines on patrol for the great majority of the time. With five, we could be certain of having two on the station.
This British nuclear deterrent, which, although committed to the alliance in the last resort, remains under our own control, can only, to use the Prime Minister's old phrase, be described as
"like a dried pea on top of a mountain"
in the context of ex-President Johnson's assertion that the United States today has a nuclear fire power equivalent to 30,000 tons of T.N.T. for every human being alive. The Soviet Union's is somewhat smaller. But I do not think that anyone will challenge Mr. Johnson's view that, to the average human being, the difference between 30,000 and 15,000 tons would be minimal.
Weighing the implications of destructive power on this scale, we are bound to continue questioning ourselves about the credibility of a deterrent whose use is almost but, unfortunately—and here we agree with the Secretary of State—not quite unthinkable. It cannot be. But there are certainly grave dangers in thinking that it is a cheap way of avoiding the cost of conventional defence. If right hon. and hon. Members opposite argue in defence of their view that we should place less reliance on the nuclear deterrent, then they must, as the Secretary of State said, face the consequences of increasing conventional armaments.
At the same time, we must beware of resting complacently on the Secretary of State's assertion at Munich that a large-scale conventional war of movement would involve destruction for the people living in the area of the battlefield no more tolerable a prospect than that imposed by a strategic nuclear exchange.
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Nor can we accept the idea that a tactical nuclear weapon is simply an advanced form of artillery. I welcome the Secretary of State's recognition of that today.
That is not to say that modern conventional warfare is not a bloody business. But I am sure that we must agree as a matter of strategy that it was right for N.A.T.O. to abandon the former tripwire doctrine of immediate massive nuclear retaliation in favour of the concept of a flexible response based on a stronger conventional capability in Europe. This doctrine of flexible response recognises that the political decision on the use of nuclear weapons, tactical as well as strategic, will be difficult whatever may be achieved by the work of N.A.T.O.'s Nuclear Planning Group in contingency planning and co-ordinating consultation.
It may be just an academic play on words to talk of a change of strategy if at the end of the day the Secretary of State is still saying, as he did recently in Munich, that it is doubtful if N.A.T.O. could put up a successful conventional defence for more than a few days. It is no good making a great thing of having changed the strategy from the trip-wire that trips to the flexible response that lasts for only a few days. It is no good having a concept of flexible response based on forces which are ill-equipped, inadequately manned or in some undefined state of mobilisation. In General Lemnitzer's words,
"It sometimes seems this concern over internal domestic policies and complacency about the threat may lead to a situation where we will actually invite aggression by our failure to maintain the needed strength and readiness. To be credible, N.A.T.O. deterrence must be based on a real military capability."
In the present situation, at the very least, the Government have a clear duty to halt the run-down of our forces and reserves.
I agree with the Secretary of State to the extent that N.A.T.O. cannot forgo reliance on nuclear escalation in case of large-scale attack without an increase in European military budgets which, in present circumstances, we must accept is beyond the bounds of practical possibility. Moreover, the Warsaw Pact countries have one great advantage. At Munich, the Secretary of State talked of two main advantages—tanks and surprise. But it is the element of surprise

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which is the one advantage that not even parity of conventional forces could overcome. One lesson to be learnt from Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia is that, whatever the period of military or political warning, it is possible under the cover of manoeuvres to achieve a freedom of action and swift movement of forces across frontiers that is frightening. This could apply equally to Soviet manoeuvres off the coast of Norway, or the present Soviet-East German manoeuvres round Berlin, or to an attack on Yugoslavia or Greece.
At the same time, in view of what the Defence Statement says about the continuing growth over the whole field of Soviet military power, it is unrealistic to talk of N.A.T.O. simply maintaining conventional forces at roughly existing levels, much less to take pride in cutting down our own conventional forces. It may be politically convenient, but it is gambling with our national security.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: To what precise extent would the right hon. Gentleman increase the number of N.A.T.O. forces?
Mr. Rippon: The hon. Gentleman will get the answer if he is patient. I am trying to deploy an argument to show the extent to which we agree on the strategy and the extent to which we think more needs to be done and where.
The nations of Western European Union alone have a population and gross national product considerably greater than that of the Soviet Union. We in Europe must accept that we may be fatally mistaken if we imagine that we can indefinitely enjoy a higher standard of living than the Soviet Union and its allies without creating what Mr. Macnamara once described as
"temptations for Soviet probings and adventures which nothing in Soviet history suggests it is prepared to withstand".
In this situation, some of the Secretary of State's colleagues should be arguing, not that Britain's share of her gross national product devoted to defence should be reduced to the average of other Western European countries, but that theirs should be increased up to the level of ours.
Of course we all want peace and disarmament, but we would do well to
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remember that the Atlantic Alliance can only be an effective instrument of détente as long as it remains an effective instrument of defence. I think the Secretary of State, if I heard him aright, this afternoon used a rather shorter and crisper phrase. He said that successful deterrence offers the best prospect of détente, and he must be right.
The defence of Europe is primarily a European problem, and I do not dissent from the Secretary of State's advocacy of the establishment of what he called a European identity within the Atlantic Alliance to improve our co-operation and collective defence. In so far as this implies a real willingness on the part of European nations to bear a greater share of the common defence burden, I am sure that it would strengthen rather than weaken the United States nuclear and conventional commitment to N.A.T.O.
We must certainly make our proper contribution to European defence, which is a part and parcel of our own. Meanwhile, we are entitled to say that we are doing more than most of our allies. The Secretary of State has had more than one occasion to suggest that that is not always fully appreciated.
Apart from our contribution to the strategic nuclear deterrent and to B.A.O.R., the R.A.F. represents a large part of the strike power of N.A.T.O., and we also provide the strongest of the European navies. We have our garrison in Berlin, and we alone among the European members of N.A.T.O. are involved in responsibilities for military action on every one of N.A.T.O.'s geographical fronts. Indeed, that is why I think we have a right to argue that we are already over-committed in some ways to N.A.T.O. We are certainly right to argue that if there is to be an increase in conventional forces in Europe, which may and ought to be a possibility, our contribution must be weighed in the balance with those contributions made by other people.
We cannot safely concentrate our efforts in Europe at the expense of all other interests and commitments. After all, it was not so long ago that the Government were themselves saying that a major nuclear war was unlikely, and that a deliberate act of aggression in Europe

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was also unlikely. That is part of the argument of the Secretary of State today. They argued that, on the contrary, it was outside Europe that instability might increase. The most serious nuclear threat came when it was certainly not expected, in Cuba. It may well be that the greatest potential danger area today is the Middle East, about which the Secretary of State said nothing, where Soviet power and influence are increasing all the time in the wake of massive arms shipments and the deployment of thousands of technicians and advisers.
Mr. Healey: If the right hon. Gentleman has left his contribution to N.A.T.O., he has left it in a state of some confusion. He argued earlier that Britain should increase her contribution to N.A.T.O., but he has just now been arguing that we should persuade everyone else to increase their contributions but we should not increase ours. A few moments ago he promised to tell us precisely what additional forces he would provide for various elements in our responsibility. I ask him now, before he leaves this question, if he will tell us what additions he proposes that we should make to the strength of N.A.T.O. in Europe.
Mr. Rippon: I think the right hon. Gentleman is not as confused as he pretends to be. I made our position perfectly clear. I did not speak of increasing Britain's contribution to N.A.T.O.; I spoke of the need to strike a proper balance between nuclear and conventional forces and the need to make flexible response a reality and not just a form of words, and I should have thought that the Secretary of State would not dissent from this. I also said, and I do not think he will dissent from this, that, in increasing the joint European contribution which we advocate, we are entitled to have weighed in the balance sheet the extent to which we contribute today. We are in a sense already over-committed to N.A.T.O., and I have said that we cannot safely concentrate our efforts at the expense of all other interests and commitments.
As I have explained, it is not so long ago that the Government were saying that the situation might well be more difficult in other parts of the world, and I cited the Middle East. Time and again conflict has broken out in an area in a
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way which has been unexpected, and with a few more fire-watchers we might not have to send the fire brigade so often and so hurriedly.
Should we not question the basic assumption of the Defence Statement that any major attack must come in central Europe? It is because of that assumption that virtually all our forces and such reserves as we possess are committed to N.A.T.O. and S.A.C.E.U.R. Why is it inevitable that a conventional war should begin on land and not at sea? We are committed to Europe's defence, but what about our own? What would happen if there were a simultaneous attack by the Soviet Union on central Europe and, as would be most probable, against the United Kingdom by sea and by air? I thought that the Secretary of State dismissed the story of Mr. Chapman Pincher in much too cavalier a fashion. It seemed to me that not all the ignorance and malice were on one side.
Mr. Healey: If the right hon. Gentleman will consult his right hon. Friend on his right or the Leader of the Opposition on his left, he will find out that the state of affairs which Mr. Pincher purported to describe was one which obtained under the Conservative Government for 13 years. If he thinks that it does not dserve dismissal in the way I put it, will he say what he is worried about and why he did not do something about it when he was a Minister in the last Government?
Mr. Rippon: I have said—and it seems to have upset the Secretary of State very much—that he dismissed it in too cavalier a fashion. I am not suggesting that there are no arrangements whatever in practice, but whatever the informal arrangements may be for defence under the contingency planning for Britain, it is right that we on this side of the House should address ourselves at least to the probability that, in the event of an assault on central Europe, our ports, our airfields and our communications would be under heavy attack by bombers and even by paratroopers. I do not suppose that the Secretary of State dissents from that part of Mr. Chapman Pincher's assertion.
Mr. Healey: Of course I do not dissent from that. The point that Mr. Pincher was making was that N.A.T.O. has no responsibility for dealing with that

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situation, and that statement is totally untrue.
Mr. Rippon: No formal responsibility, but perhaps the Secretary of State could confirm the alleged statement of a Ministry of Defence spokesman that the United Kingdom is not formally part of the Allied Command Europe, so that the Supreme Allied Commander is not responsible for its defence. Britain remains responsible for its own defence. That is the formal situation. Of course there are contingency arrangements, but surely we are entitled to be given some information by the Secretary of State for Defence as to what would happen in circumstances which he now admits are probable. He has to deal with the present situation, not as we did in the 13 years of Conservative Government with much larger reserves and a much larger element of home defence. Whatever the formal position, the fact of the matter is that it is the basic weakness of our conventional forces, the lack of reserves, the disbandment of the Territorials in their old form, indeed the abandonment of virtually any form of home defence, that forces the Government back on the early use of nuclear weapons as virtually our sole answer to any major attack.
Let the House have a look at Chapter XI of the Defence White Paper, which is devoted to home defence. I will read the whole chapter, it will not take more than a few seconds. In its seven lines it says this:
"In the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1968 (Cmnd. 3540), it was stated that the Government had decided that civil defence should be put on a care and maintenance basis. This has now been done. Training and planning is to continue at the minimum level that will permit more active preparations to be resumed if this should prove necessary. Total annual public expenditure on home defence was reduced to about £10 million in 1968–69 and is expected to fall in subsequent years to between £7 million and £8 million."
What an appalling admission that is for a Government to have to make. We, alone of all the countries of Western Europe, have virually no home defence of any kind. If that does not wake the people of this country to the peril into which they have been placed by the policy of Her Majesty's Government, then nothing will.
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It is when we look at the Defence Statement in the light of our own national security and overseas interests that the most fundamental weaknesses are revealed. Our overseas interests are necessarily and inevitably world-wide. I know that the Secretary of State will agree that we cannot draw any arbitrary dividing line between west and east of Suez. The Defence Statement acknowledges that we are still responsible for the security of our dependent territories, including Hong Kong and Fiji. We have commitments to C.E.N.T.O., quite apart from other interests in he Middle East, the Gulf and the Far East, and even the general capability which is all that the Government wish to remain of our military power east of Suez will require staging posts at such places as Mazirah and Gan.
Surely for us, more than any other country in the world, the keeping open of our trade routes is vital to our survival. Every day, something like 2,000 British ships are on the high seas in the South Atlantic, the Indian Ocean and in Far East waters. Surely we have our part to play in defending them. Yet the Defence Statement, no doubt for political reasons, does not even mention Simonstown or its importance to us.
When we on this side of the House reaffirm our determination to maintain a presence east of Suez, we are not saying that we can take a major responsibility independently of our allies for policing the oceans or defending South-East Asia. The Secretary of State has said that the mere presence of Soviet ships enables her to exert a political influence on the neutrals and on her client States in the Middle East and the Indian Ocean. The Statement on Defence takes some pride in the fact that, when H.M.S. "Leopard" went to Bermuda last April, the riots there immediately died down. In the same way, our experience since the war has shown that our presence in the Gulf and the Far East has helped maintain stability.
We cannot undo the Government's abandonment of the policies which they defended so vigorously until last year. But we have pledged ourselves to honour the obligations that have been broken, so far as that is possible and in the light of what our friends and allies require when the time comes. Accordingly, we

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will consult with Governments in the Gulf as to the action which would be most helpful and practical to them and to Britain.
In regard to Singapore and Malaysia, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has proposed that Britain should make a contribution in men and equipment to a new joint Commonwealth force drawn from Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Malaysia, as well as ourselves. That force would be present on the spot to do what a general capability cannot do; that is, avert trouble before it becomes serious.
Obviously these can only be matters for negotiation between Governments in due course, but the decision of Australia and New Zealand, to which the Secretary of State referred, to keep forces in Malaysia and Singapore after British withdrawal is an encouraging indication and will be of great value to the area. As the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Gorton, said in announcing it:
"It is much easier for a country which is to be assisted to believe that it will be assisted if forces from the country which may provide such help are there and are visible."
We think that we should be there and visible, too, side by side with our Commonwealth friends and allies. Our presence would have value not only in helping to build up the local defence capability but in sustaining morale during the process.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: Would the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Rippon: No, I do not think that I should give way any more.
The trouble in considering all these matters is that we have to accept the rundown of our forces and the inadequacy of our reserves is making it increasingly difficult for us to maintain our own national security, much less to help provide for anyone else's. I have referred already to home defence, and I will not repeat at length the arguments and facts which we put forward in the debate last December on the general state of our reserves, Regular and volunteer.
The Defence Statement states that during 1969–70 the cost of the reserve forces is expected to be £22 million, or about 1 per cent. of the total defence budget. That is a pitifully inadequate
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sum, and it is a matter of concern that our trained reservists are well below those of our major N.A.T.O. allies. The proposed retention of the Army General Reserve for a further and final period of five years is an inadequate stop-gap. It is obviously a mere paper reserve to a large extent in terms of trained, fit men of the right age for the job.
As for the Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve, I will only reiterate that the Conservative Party has given positive and unequivocal pledges to recreate a citizens' volunteer reserve on the lines of the Territorial Army for home defence and duties in aid of the civil power, and to serve as a framework for expansion in the event of war.
Of course, that does not mean that the core of our defence must not be a highly trained professional regular force. Here again, the Defence Statement shows a steady reduction in the strength of the three Services and a total decline from 1st January, 1968, to 1st January, 1969, from 410,000 to 389,000, and we know that this is to continue apace until, by 1973, it will be down to about 340,000.
Even so, the Defence Statement has to admit:
"The trained or effective strengths of all three Services included in these totals are below requirements owing to shortfalls in recruiting. This is particularly marked in the Army".
The Army alone will be 9,000 short this year, and the main explanation from the Government and the Secretary of State today for this sorry state of affairs is that there are fewer young men available because of the fall in the birthrate in the middle 1950s. He used the word "demography", which I suppose only half of us understand, and I am not in the right half.
That may be one factor, but clearly it pales into insignificance by comparison with the effect of the eventual ending of prospects of overseas service outside Europe, the uncertainty created by frequent cuts in the size of the forces, and the quite unwarranted abandonment of the Grigg formula on pay.
In spite of these deterimental factors, I am sure that we will all want to emphasise that our armed Services, which could hardly be cut any further, offer a rewarding life and good prospects. But it is up to the Government to create the necessary confidence that it will continue to be so,

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and that is where they have failed so lamentably up to date.
Mr. Dalyell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Rippon: No. Even allowing for the fact that, increasingly in the future——
Mr. Dalyell rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) must resume his seat.
Mr. Rippon: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman before——
Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since when has it been accepted that some Front Bench speakers can have the utter discourtsey even to ignore an hon. Member who tries to intervene? When speaking from the Front Bench, the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) should mind his manners.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order. If the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) does not give way, the hon. Member for West Lothian must resume his seat.
Mr. Rippon: When the Secretary of State winds up a debate, he is notoriously reluctant to give way to anyone, even once——
Mr. Dalyell rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
Mr. Rippon: It is only fair to hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate that I should not take up too much of the time of the House——
Mr. Dalyell rose—
Hon. Members: Name him.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already asked the hon. Member for West Lothian three times to resume his seat——
Mr. Dalyell: Mr. Deputy Speaker——
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. When I am speaking, I expect the House to respect my words. I have asked the hon. Gentleman on three occasions to resume his seat if the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham does not give way.
Mr. Rippon: Even allowing for the fact that, increasingly in the future, the strength of our Armed Forces will depend much more on quality than on simple numbers of personnel, clearly we have reduced our manpower below the safety level.
As for the need to equip our forces with the most modern and efficient weapons, that will be a matter for detailed scrutiny when we come to the Service Estimates. I will content myself, therefore, with a few general observations, and I think that the indications which I will give go in some way to answer the question which the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) has been trying to raise so persistently.
I am sure that the Secretary of State will confirm that, in the case of the Navy, there is a steady reduction in the number of ships in service and in reserve. That may be accounted for partly by the provision of more modern vessels with greater strike power, but it is by no means the whole story. We find it disturbing that we should still have so few Hunter-killer submarines, and that the programme has been slowed down as part of Government policy.
We on this side of the House are also concerned about other matters, including the Government's announcement about the concentration of the nuclear submarine programme at only one port. A good case will have to be made out for that apparent monopoly.
Incidentally, I hope that a Government spokesman will take the opportunity to deny, if he can, the report that we are not to go ahead with the planned building of another nuclear submarine depot ship. If that is true, I think that we must be told how it can be done without undermining the worldwide effectiveness of our Polaris and nuclear submarine fleet.
On the brighter side, we welcome the fact that the Government appear to be

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having second thoughts about carriers—once described by the Secretary of State as "the virility symbol of the Navy"—and that they are now likely to remain in service for a longer period.
Equally encouraging are indications that the development of the super-Harrier is leading the Government to appreciate more than they did before the importance of Naval aviation and the possibilities of operating these aircraft from smaller ships.
The R.A.F., unfortunately, is bound to suffer for some time to come from the Government's precipitate cancellation of the TSR2, the P1154, the HS681 and other projects. While on the subject of the cost of various policies, we should bear in mind that these cancellations have not only cost £225 million in abortive expenditure, but they have left us without any of the aircraft at the end of the day.
I think that this is one day when we may be grateful that the Government were thwarted—for reasons beyond their control, thank God—in their desire and determination to cancel the Concorde as well. But that makes it all the more important that we should press on with the development of the multi-rôle combat aircraft and wish success to the negotiations now going on.
As the Defence Statement fairly recognises, there are real difficulties in international co-operation in reaching agreement both on operational requirements and on time scales. It may well be that in many cases co-ordinated national specialisation, with shared production, is a better proposition than attempts to share design responsibilities.
Having said that, I am sure that it must be right to make every effort to secure European collaboration in the fullest and widest sense over the whole range of equipment procurement, provided—and this is an important proviso—we retain our independent capacity to go ahead on our own in default of international agreement.
We may fairly claim that the Army, as indeed is the case with all three Services, is maintained at the highest professional standards and generally equipped with the most modern weapons. As the Secretary of State has told us, we can all take some credit for this, because
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it is largely based on the equipment programme launched by the Conservative Government. There are, however, some gaps—perhaps there will always be gaps—such as the dubious decision not to provide the planned heavy helicopter. But the real danger here, as with the other Services, is the lack of spare capacity of reserves of men and of equipment.
Those sections of the Defence Statement which take pride in the elimination of support facilities and in the reduction of war and contingency stocks we find gravely disquieting. This, indeed, is the gravamen of our charge against the Government. No matter where we look, they have cut our Forces and their support to the very bone. Yet, as the Defence Statement contends,
'.. without the security which comes from the strength to deter aggression, we put at risk the achievement of all our other national purposes."
It is our judgment that the cuts which the Government have imposed—and those which are still to be made—are reducing our defences below the safety level and placing our national security and interests in peril.
5.25 p.m.
Mr. Frank Allaun: The main issue in the debate is simple. There are three conflicting views. The Government propose to spend, in all, £2,437 million in the coming year on arms. The Opposition Amendment states that this is far too little. The 96 Labour Members who have now signed the second Amendment say that this is far too much. It will be noted that these Members come from Left, Right and Centre of the Labour Party.
The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), and the Conservative Amendment, say that the level of armed forces is "inadequate". Even if we trebled our present expenditure on arms, there are many hon. and gallant Members opposite who would still say that our arms expenditure was inadequate. And they would be quite right, though not in the sense that they mean. Even if we trebled our arms expenditure, we could not prevent a ballistic missile landing in Britain. All we could do is what we can already do—retaliate with a similar missile. That missile would be a suicide weapon, because if we used it we would get another

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back. Both sides would decimate each other. So we can threaten suicide either expensively or cheaply. That is what it boils down to.
My main point is that it is nonsense to think that Britain, with its economic problems, can afford arms spending on this scale. We are behaving like a low-paid worker with a large family who comes home to his wife and says, "I have brought you home a Saladin armoured car, dear." She will reply, "Well, what the hell do we want with an armoured car? We want a decent house." He replies, "Never mind, I have saved you £5"—or in this case £5 million—"by buying it without the windscreen wiper." If he said that, she would soon give him the rounds of the kitchen.
Military expenditure, according to a recent reply, is costing every man, woman and child in the country in taxation, direct or indirect, on average 15s. 10d. per week. So that, for a family of four, the taxation burden is £3 3s. 4d. per week.
Why should we be spending so much higher a proportion of our wealth than the rest of Western Europe? Based on the Institute of Strategic Studies' figures, and on the Government's figures, some of my hon. Friends and I have worked out that if we reduced our share of the gross national product to that of the other Western European countries, we would save the little sum of £650 million a year. It would probably be even greater. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), by very skilful questioning, has elicited, there is £169 million of military spending outside the official figure. Indeed, last year it was even higher at £198 million. The Chancellor gave an Answer earlier this afternoon which will confirm this if anyone wishes to do some mathematics.
What could not Britain and the British Government do with £650 million a year? The development——
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I have been listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman. Has he thought of putting similar considerations to some of the Warsaw Pact Powers who are spending twice as much?
Mr. Allaun: Yes, indeed. My hon. Friends and I believe in the policy adopted by the N.A.T.O. Council 15 months
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ago, that there should be joint proposals for mutual balanced arms reduction. We very much regret that no such proposals have been forthcoming from the N.A.T.O. Council, although it decided on them 15 months ago.
With £650 million a year the development of housing, pensions, education, health, industrial re-equipment and overseas aid to which the Government are committed could go ahead. At the moment we are failing to achieve our programme. I shall not depart from today's topic, but I must say that our housing completions this year will go down with a bang because of the credit squeeze. The squeeze is due to our deficit in our overseas balance of payments, which in turn is due largely to our heavy military expenditure abroad. Indeed, our arms programme is one of the main factors in the so-called over-heating of the economy.
There is nothing Utopian, nothing visionary, about the view that we are presenting. We are the highest proportionate spenders on arms in Western Europe, with the exception of Portugal. Italy spends 2·9 per cent. of her g.n.p. on arms. If we were to spend at the Italian level, we would save not just £650 million a year, but £940 million a year, which the Government would have at their disposal.
My right hon. Friend was very courteous in his remarks, and he may feel that we are being churlish in not thanking him for the £5 million saving this year in spite of the rise in military costs. The fact is that we are disappointed that by April, 1970, more than two years after the decision of January, 1968, to end our rôle east of Suez, that is to be the total saving.
In the autumn I went to Bahrein and Sharjah. I should have thought that the number of troops there would have been reduced. On the contrary, I saw men who had fought in Aden, and who, instead of being brought home as they wanted to be, were sent to the Gulf. They do not like it because it is an unaccompanied station, and they want to be with their families. Incidentally, I saw at Sharjah a newly-built base which cost the little sum of £8 million. These men should be brought home, and brought home quickly.
The Minister is entitled to ask where we would make economies to reduce

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military spending. There are several items due for the axe. First, consider military research and development, on which we spend £234 million a year. This is one-third of the total national effort in research and development. In certain industries the proportion devoted to research and development is far higher.
Perhaps I might quote some figures which I do not believe have been given to the House before. In shipbuilding, between 90 per cent. and 95 per cent. of all R. & D. is for military purposes. In aircraft and missiles the figure is 80 per cent. to 90 per cent. In electronics it is 60 per cent. to 70 per cent. In vehicles it is 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. In the nuclear field it is 10 per cent. to 20 per cent. In all industry 35 per cent. to 40 per cent. of research and development is for military purposes. The source of those estimates is an Institute of Strategic Studies publication entitled, "The European Armaments Base—A Survey", by C. J. E. Harlow. The figures appear on page 7 of Part II. It is little wonder that we are losing shipbuilding orders to Japan, and computer orders to America, if such a high proportion of our research is devoted to military purposes.
Now for another item. It is proposed to build jointly with several other countries a new multi-rôle combat plane. When I questioned the Minister a few days ago about the cost of this, mentioning the sum of £2,000 million for development and the planes themselves, my right hon. Friend replied that there had been varying estimates. Whatever they are they are certainly not chicken-feed.
Next, we are to spend £400 million on buying United States war planes. Then, there is to be the development of more sophisticated nuclear warheads for the Polaris submarine missiles. No one knows how much this will cost, or at least it has not yet been announced.
Again, it appears from a recent Parliamentary reply—and the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) mentioned this a few moments ago—that the two aircraft carriers which it was intended to scrap are to be retained in service.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Allaun: If hon. Gentlemen opposite want to spend money on all those things, they will not be within £2,000 million, or even £3,000 million.
Lastly, consider the £210 million a year that we spend on the B.A.O.R. This is the direct cost. If we add the "hardware"—the weapons—and indirect, overhead, expenses, the figure comes to at least double, to £420 million a year, and much of this is in precious Deutschemarks. We are told that a lot of this expenditure across the exchanges is covered by West German imports from Britain, but I think it is fairly well known to hon. Members that a great part of the goods imported from Britain are those which would have been purchased in any case.
This vast expenditure on arms accounts for 5s. in the £ of all British taxation. Some time ago a Gallup Poll put this question to the public: "Do you think the Government are spending too much or too little on arms?" The answer was that 5 per cent. thought too little, and 58 per cent. thought too much. I agree that we should not govern by gallup poll, and that the Government should do what is right, not necessarily what they think is popular—and I am not thinking of other debates held not long ago—but, in this case, if the Government did what we are proposing, we believe that it would be both right and popular. The figures which I have given are overwhelming. There is not just a maginal difference.
Defence cuts could be made without causing mass unemployment. Proof of this was provided in 1939, when 9 million people were transferred rapidly into the Armed Forces and war factories, and in 1945—and this is the supreme example—when they were transferred back again to civilian industry. That was done under a Labour Government, and there was no mass unemployment. What we are proposing here is tiny by comparison. We are asking, not for a transfer from a war economy to a peace economy, but from a large arms programme to a small one. If a major transfer was carried out so successfully in 1939, there is no doubt that this far smaller switch could be carried out now.
Mr. Robert Howarth: I may be anticipating my hon. Friend, but

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will he tell the House what he is proposing with regard to N.A.T.O., for instance, in the reductions about which he is talking? Does he envisage winding up N.A.T.O.? Is that what he wants?
Mr. Allaun: Our first step should be to bring our spending down to the level of that of other countries in Western Europe. Secondly, there should be a mutual reduction of forces in the N.A.T.O. and Warsaw Pact countries, leading to an all-European conference to set up an East-West security system to provide peace in Europe without this fantastic waste of arms expenditure on both sides.
Finally, I turn to my right hon. Friend's three speeches and articles at the beginning of last month. They have gained him the reputation of being a hawk and I cannot avoid the suspicion that my right hon. Friend is not entirely unhappy about that reputation. This is what worries me. I say this despite what he said a few minutes ago. It is all very well for the Minister to show himself as a tough guy. Unfortunately, he is threatening toughness at the expense of our families and other people's families in this country and in others—HON. MEMBERS: "Not at all."]—My right hon. Friend is quite capable of replying to that if it is untrue.
The hawks in one country encourage those in another and that is how the arms race gains momentum. Even if we quadrupled our military expenditure, we could not compete as a great power with either America or Russia. I weep no tears for that. Our rôle should be that of bringing the two together for peace. Sabre rattling or, far worse, nuclear weapons rattling will not help, but hinder, us in that rôle.
I do not want to be unfair to the Secretary of State. I have his three long statements here. May I quote but one sentence from his "Perspectives of Soviet Military Policy", Munich, 1st February this year? It says:
"The German and British Governments are now working together on the development of a NATO doctrine for the initial use of nuclear weapons in a number of typical situations."
Mr. Emrys Hughes: How can that be reconciled with the Prime Minister's statement that we would never drop an atom bomb first?
Mr. Allaun: That was precisely the question that I was about to ask. I thank my hon. Friend. The word "initial" can only mean the first use of nuclear weapons. This is surely a departure, and a terribly dangerous one, from the long-held Labour doctrine that we would not be the first to use nuclear weapons. To think that we are working out this new doctrine with the West German generals, nearly every one of whom was an officer in Hitler's forces——
Mr. Healey: I made it clear—I hope that my hon. Friend listened to what I said—that this has been the policy of all British Governments since 1949. Indeed, since before 1949, it was always the policy of all Western Governments to meet a large-scale Soviet attack with nuclear weapons if we were incapable of meeting it with conventional means alone. This is what has kept the peace for 20 years. I tried to demonstrate in my speech—my hon. Friend disagrees with me—that his policy makes a third world war far more likely—HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If my hon. Friend would try to explain how he reconciles a lower defence budget with a change in N.A.T.O. policy, he will do some of his co-signatories a service as well as the rest of the House.
Mr. Allaun: I would prefer to rely on what my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) gave, accurately, as an account of what the Prime Minister has said in times gone by, although I have not the quotation with me.
Mr. Rippon: But surely the hon. Gentleman does not place any reliance upon a promise given by the Prime Minister.
Mr. Allaun: I am unhappy about this collaboration with West German generals in the use of nuclear weapons. We have heard another statement by the Prime Minister, that we should never allow a West German "finger on the nuclear trigger". This seems to me extremely close to that situation. The Secretary of State said today that he was thinking of small tactical weapons. Does he seriously suggest——
Mr. Richard Crawshaw: My hon. Friend mentioned the German finger on the nuclear trigger.

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How can he reconcile this fear with his constant expression of a desire to get Britain out of N.A.T.O.?
Mr. Allaun: Because it seems to me that we are helping West Germany to get that finger on the trigger. To read the Minister's words again:
"The German and British Governments are now working together on the development of a N.A.T.O. doctrine…"
It seems to me, and surely to my hon. Friend, that we are helping the West Germans. Indeed, ever since about 1948, we have been putting arms into their hands and now it seems that we are putting nuclear arms into their hands. It is true that there are electronic locks, but those, like all other locks, can be picked. I would not put much reliance on certain military gentlemen that I have met in West Germany.
The Secretary of State said today that he was thinking of the small tactical weapons. Does he seriously suggest that, if atom bombs—the nice little ones which only wipe out a few scores of thousands of people—were used, the Soviet leaders would set up a Commission—I will not say a Royal Commission—to inquire into their size and then reply with bombs of exactly the same size?
The first atom bomb which is dropped in Europe on Soviet territory, everyone knows, would bring an instant response, which would be to wipe out every man, woman and child in this country. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I have a family. I do not want this to happen and it is not necessary because I do not believe that either East or West wants it. By engaging in an arms race, and especially in a nuclear arms race, we are making the possibility much greater. That is what we are out to avoid and I appeal to my right hon. Friend to listen carefully to our pleas on this occasion.
5.47 p.m.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), but it is not for us on this side to answer his arguments in detail. If he had been of maturer age in the 1930s, he would have learned that wishful thinking does not solve any of the defence problems of our country. He would have realised that many millions of people in Europe would
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not have laid down their lives if Western European defence and ours had been co-ordinated, as we are in N.A.T.O., and had been robust enough to launch a defence programme as effective as successive Governments have launched since the end of the Second World War.
When he says that we on this side are advocating a more expensive and extensive defence programme, I would remind him that, during our 13 years, we succeeded in making a worth-while contribution to N.A.T.O., and in honouring our promise to defend the Middle East, in clearing Malaysia of Communism and in solving the confrontation which later took place in Indonesia.
Since the invasion of Czechoslovakia, he must wake up to reality. Perhaps he could try to convert some of his other 93 hon. Friends who have signed what I think is a deplorably blind and wish ful-thinking Motion. I am sure that many hon. Members would give him leave of absence to go and try to convert the Russians to our way of thinking, so that they will not send a quarter of a million armed men into a neutral country like Czechoslovakia overnight——
Mr. Stanley Orme: On this issue, my hon. Friend, and his hon. Friends on this side, deplore and oppose the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. We are opposed to it publicly and will insist and continue to insist on the withdrawal of those troops, but this was done by a Warsaw Pact country to another Warsaw Pact country. N.A.T.O. played no part and was powerless to play any part in it. In consequence, we advocate a policy which would remove this situation and allow nations, large and small, in Europe to be guaranteed security.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman's case, but he seems to be in favour of both nuclear and conventional disarmament. Until we can convert the Soviet bloc into a more peaceable approach to life, that is not only a pipe dream but a dangerous one.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Had we had twice the conventional forces and four times the nuclear forces, would that have made any difference to the invasion of Czechoslovakia?
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: That incident shows the readiness of the U.S.S.R. to invade even a friendly Socialist country in Communist bloc. If they are prepared to do that, after manoeuvring on that friendly country's frontiers, how much more prepared might they be to start a similar adventure against a country which is not Socialist in that sense or which is not within what they regard as their bloc? This is why we must keep our guard up. If we do not, we may fall victim of the wishful thinking in which so many people indulge in this country in the 'thirties.
I was glad to note that the Secretary of State has been converted by our arguments 0:1 two scores—although possibly his conversion has also resulted from an acceptance of the reality of the situation—first, that we must depend on the nuclear deterrent and have a graduated response, and, secondly, that we need a presence in the Mediterranean to shadow—he used the word "mark"—the Russian Fleet. Both of these points have been constantly urged on him by my hon. Friends and last year we urged him not to evacuate Malta in view of what happened in the Mediterranean. We are delighted that the Government have adopted our policy in this connection.
I criticise this ninth White Paper on three scores: first on the ground of lack of stability; secondly because it deceives the country and our N.A.T.O. allies about the numbers available; and thirdly because it falsifies the expenditure put before the House and the nation.
On the question of the lack of stability, I despair that while a Labour Government are in power we shall ever get stability. I am sure that they mean what they say, but with each White Paper we are told "We will have stability" but it never comes. We were told in 1966, just after the defence reappraisal:
"The major decisions are now taken …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th March, 1966; Vol. 725, c. 1797.]
In February 1967 we were told in the White Paper, Cmnd. 3203:
"The Government is concerned to settle the size and shape of the forces for the next decade in a way that will provide the maximum possible stability for the men and women who are making their career in the Services…"
That was two years ago. In the July, 1967, White Paper we were told:
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"This Statement announces new decisions where these can or must be fairly taken—not least to provide a period of stability in which the Services can plan manpower and careers…"
In January, 1968, six months later, the Secretary of State wrote:
"The biggest problem in the last few years is that economic circumstances have compelled the Government to reconsider the rôle of the services four times in the last two years and we have had no stability."
On the first page of the latest White Paper we learn that there is now to be a period of stability. I urge the Government to remember what is happening to the morale of the defence forces as a result of these changes, counter-changes, cuts and further cuts. I fear that as long as hon. Gentlemen opposite are managing the economy so inefficiently and ineffectively they will always be changing their defence plans; and it is always defence which bears the brunt of any cuts perpetuated by them.
The Secretary of State said that the morale of the Forces was high. I would not wish it to go out from any part of the House that there is not a worth-while career in the Services. There is, and there always will be a worth-while job in the Forces for young men of ambition and who desire adventure.
However, as my hon. Friends and I go around making defence visits, we do not find that such a high degree of morale exists, particularly among our young officers and young and ambitious men. We are constantly being asked, "How long is this going on? What is our future? Am I secure?" Before this trend goes too far we must have, and stick to, as stable a defence policy as is conceivable, with no further efforts to appease the Left wing. As the right hon. Gentleman said, those who comprise the Left wing are like sea lions; they swallow every herring thrown to them yet open their mouths and bark for more. They will never be satisfied, as we note from the Amendment standing in their names. We must have a defence policy on which the two Front Benches are united, with the support of the vast majority of hon. Members, with the exception of the 94.
Mr. Robert Howarth: If the morale of the Forces is not high, how does the hon. Gentleman explain the increasing re-engagement rate? Apparently those

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already in the Services consider that they have such a worth-while career that it is worth continuing with it.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: It is true that some of those who join the Services find, after a time, that they are doing such a worthwhile job that they sign on again. I am delighted at that, because the nation has invested a great deal in training them. However, those outside the Services are so uncertain of the future—as the White Paper points out, 38,000 recruits are needed for the three Services; in the current year ending in March there were 10,000 short—that they are not signing on in adequate numbers. One reason is the uncertainty and the way in which their parents are advising them. "I should not go into the Forces just now", youngsters are being told. We must, therefore, convert not only the young men we want but their friends and families into believing and knowing that there is a worthwhile future in the Forces.
I hope that the Secretary of State will take seriously the plea made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) to get back to the Grigg formula. There was no excuse for giving pay rises to, for example, civil servants, G.P.O. overseas telephone operators and, more particularly, those who were able to put real pressure on the nation but not giving the pay rises to which they were entitled to the members of our Armed Forces who have a much more disruptive life, who are asked to go to all sorts of places at very short notice and who deserve to be well rewarded for what they are doing for the safety and defence of the nation. I hope that the Government will speed up the deliberations of the Prices and Incomes Board on this matter and quickly produce something realistic which will put the Forces pari passu with their opposite numbers in industry.
In considering the question of numbers, the right hon. Gentleman has been less than frank in the White Paper. We recognise that the main task of our defence is our contribution to N.A.T.O. and B.A.O.R. I have been rereading the 1957 White Paper—that document has been much discussed in the newspapers recently—in which we were informed that we had 77,000 people serving in B.A.O.R.
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That number was run down under the policy of that White Paper—admittedly, that occurred during the time of National Service—and we have progressively run it down to the 50,000 mark.
However, the right hon. Gentleman was at pains to say, both today and in other speeches, particularly in Munich, that the figure had now reached 53,000. This is not being honest because 6,000 of those are in the Brigade Group which is now in this country. Thus, the real figure of those serving in Germany now is 47,000. This is known to our allies. It should be known to us. If there was a period of strain it would not lessen the tension for us to decide to send those 6,000 to their bases and pick up the necessary equipment in Germany.
The right hon. Gentleman also spoke, as he did in his Munich speech, about our ability to send an extra 20,000 troops overseas within 10 days. We have learnt, as a result of the Czechoslovakia affair and similar pressures, that it is the number of efficient and trained men on the ground which is the really important number from the point of view of deterrence to aggression in the N.A.T.O. area. In paragraph 33 of his Munich speech he was a little less frank. He said:
"Another contribution which we believe will be especially valuable on the flanks"—
referring to N.A.T.O.—
"is the amphibious force which we also earmarked last year. This consists of two helicopter carriers"—
presumably "Bulwark" and "Albion"—
"both with an embarked commando unit, and two assault ships"—
presumably "Fearless" and "Intrepid"—
"a total of about 6,500 men in all."
I think the decimal point has got into the wrong place for I cannot see how so many men could be in these ships. He said:
"They can arrive at a trouble-spot in a matter of days"
but I think that at least one of each type would be east of Suez for some time. How are they to get to the Mediterranean? They would have to go round the Cape. Here again, both in the numbers he is so-called earmarking and promising to N.A.T.O. and in the reinforcements he is not realistic.
The right hon. Gentleman also said that we have a very strong tactical Air

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Force in support of B.A.O.R. I cannot think that is so. The Canberras are getting very long in the tooth and are progressively phasing and wearing out. The Phantoms were designed for sore-thumb targets—that is to say, maritime targets. I do not know whether they will be fully equipped to pick up tactical targets in the bad weather we so often experience in Western Europe. The Jaguar prototype flew only recently and I cannot believe that it will be in operational service for another two years. I am not clear where this great strength of tactical aircraft will come from to support our troops in the next two or three years.
The right hon. Gentleman must have a slightly guilty conscience because at Munich he said that one extra squadron of Harriers would be immediately allotted to N.A.T.O. The White Paper says that this will arrive after 1971. That appeared to be a rather specious promise. It looks like dressing the shop window with specious arguments. The fact is that by 1975 the Royal Air Force will have fewer than 500 front-line aircraft. Is this all that the nation, with our technological and scientific background, can afford? Sweden, a nation with one-third our strength and industrial capacity, will have 650, and West Germany will have 600 by that date. Is this not an unambitious target for this nation with its tremendous aerospace abilities?
The 1964 manifesto of the Labour Party, which I imagine has been compulsorily burned in most Labour households—there is still a copy in the Library—says:
"Our stress will be on the strengthening of our conventional forces, Regular forces, so that we can contribute our share to N.A.T.O. defence and also fulfil our peace-keeping commitments to the Commonwealth and the United Nations."
Mr. James Tinn: The hon. Member made a point about the size of the Swedish Air Force, but has he taken fully into account the fact that Sweden is nearer to Russia, and is not its participation in N.A.T.O. dependent on its own resources? Is this an argument for us to make a greater contribution?
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Both Sweden and Switzerland have always had a high degree of armed neutrality, which stood them in good stead in the last war. We are standing on the ground along the
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Iron Curtain with our N.A.T.O. allies, and if we cannot give defence to our own forces there we shall inevitably be beaten, and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, we should have to resort "in a matter of days", to use his words, to nuclear weapons. This is why I want our ground forces to be backed up by adequate modern aircraft.
After all the pleas which I am sure right hon. Gentlemen opposite believed when they wrote them in Opposition, we have a White Paper showing that our Regular Forces have been cut since 1964 by 30,000. The Government have failed to recruit 10,000 men we badly need for the future. They are aiming to run down the total of Regular Forces from what they inherited in 1964 by 100,000 in the three Services by the middle of the seventies. I wonder whether this is a realistic approach that this nation can afford in its contribution to the peace and security of the country and our alliances?
I turn to what I call deception on expenditure. After the right hon. Gentleman had unveiled his White Paper this year to the Press conference, almost every newspaper had the banner headline "£5 million saved on defence." That was repeated on television and in radio programmes on the same night. It just is not true. Tucked away last year under other Votes, as revealed in an Answer to a Written Question on 31st January, 1968, was no less than £198 million spent on other military defence and not appearing in the Defence Votes. We learned from the hon. Member for Salford, East that this year that sum will be £167 million.
In a desire to appease the Left wing, the Secretary of State is trying to say that he is saving money on defence, but he is spending it on United States military aircraft and under other Votes and in loans for married quarters. There is defence aid of £50 million to Malaysia and £25 million to Singapore which will fall to be paid in the next five years, largely during the period of office of the next Government. This is an unrealistic approach. Why not face what is being spent on defence and give up any effort to appease the Left wing?
It is a little unrealistic when the Armed Forces are waiting for their pay increase, which is likely to cost £40 million to £50 million, to leave out any calculation or reference to this from the White Paper. Presumably a supplementary Estimate

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will be put before the House within a few weeks so that the promise which should have been honoured a year ago may be fulfilled and the proper rewards given to our Service men.
I despair that under this Government there will be ever be a cohesive, stable defence policy, but I want those outside to know that the Opposition and many hon. Members in all parts of the House—and not least those in another place—believe deeply that there is a sure, venturesome and tremendously worth while future for those who desire to make their career in the Armed Forces in which they can contribute to our peace and security.
6.9 p.m.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Those who understand the matter tell us that 13 per cent.—one in eight—of the senior executives in British industry retire before their time. Overwhelmed by the tensions and anxieties of their tasks, they retire early—and retire into mental homes. I wonder what the percentage is for Ministers of Defence. I have a nasty feeling that it is 0 per cent. There are scores of them around the world.
Since 1945 they have had to make decisions which may mean the life or death of their nation, and even of mankind. Yet in every country they seem to guide their action by the principles that their general staffs impress upon them, principles which went out of date long decades ago. In a world where multilateral disarmament under international control is the only practical, the only rational, policy of national defence, they have sponsored the most massive and most hazardous arms race there has ever been. To defend it, they go on producing the dreary, question-begging shibboleths of paragraph 1 of the White Paper which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State commended to us today.
Let me say at once, in answer to the Opposition, that, within the scope of what my right hon. Friend has tried to do, I think he has had a great measure of success. He has achieved a saving of £2,000 million on the military proposals of his predecessors in office; he has closed the bases which were a legacy from a militarist imperialism which is dead.
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It is what my right hon. Friend has not tried to do which causes me alarm. It is his failure to confront the major problems that the holder of his office must face, his readiness to accept in essence the status quo, to drift along with the perilous policies which he has inherited from the past. As my right hon. Friend said this afternoon—I am grateful to him for coming; I know the claims upon his time—no question in the world compares in importance with the brain-shattering, heart-freezing issue of nuclear peace or war.
As I read the White Paper on Defence, I wondered what had happened to the great Labour movement in which I have worked for 50 years. I recall the words last year of Dr. David Inglis of the United States. He has spent 30 years in making nuclear bombs. He is still a member of the Argonne National Laboratory. He said:
"The world situation that we have been lucky enough to live through during these last five years is an awfully unsafe one, in which no sane race of beings would choose to live if it could help it. Our having been lucky does not mean that we are safe, even though most of us have permitted ourselves to become unaware of the nuclear threat under which we live."
I stress the words—
"in which no sane race of beings would choose to live if it could help it".
A month ago in Munich my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State seemed to me—he will correct me if I am wrong—to be expressing satisfaction that the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia had given N.A.T.O. a shot in the arm, that it had "stopped the rot" in the alliance—those are my right hon. Friend's words—that we could now look forward to another 20 years like the last, another 20 in which we can rely on nuclear escalation to keep the peace, and perhaps another 20 after that.
Not everyone will share the Secretary of State's enthusiasm for another 20 years like the last. They have seen the development of weapons of mass destruction; they have seen the cost of world armaments, £36,000 million in 1959, £75,000 million in 1969, more than doubled in ten years. They have seen Suez, Hungary, Cuba, Vietnam, Santo Domingo, Nigeria, the Israel-Arab wars, the seizure of Czechoslovakia; and the almost total failure to deal with world

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hunger, illiteracy and disease—a failure due to lack of Government money, and to that alone.
I ask the House to look more closely at what the Secretary of State has said. He told us in his White Paper last year that the Nuclear Planning Group of N.A.T.O. had agreed that the strategic forces "available to the alliance" were "sufficient in number"—I should rather hope so; they are enough to over-kill every man and woman in the world by 20 times—and that the Planning Group had decided that
"suitable arrangements exist for employing them to meet possible threats."
If the strategic nuclear forces are employed, that will imperil—I use the words my right hon. Friend used this afternoon—"the survival of the human race as a whole." In 1965 my right hon. Friend told us that it would mean that life in these islands would be extinct within three days. In view of that, I asked my right hon. Friend last year whether he would tell us more about the "suitable arrangements for employing the strategic weapons" on which N.A.T.O. had agreed. My right hon. Friend answered with a point-blank refusal. Life in these islands might become extinct, but neither the House nor anyone in Britain might know by whom, or how, or on what conditions, the decision for national suicide would be made.
I recall that when Dr. Edward Teller produced the H-bomb he said that there would be no time to ask the President if it could be used. I never expected to hear a Labour Secretary of State explain that our country might be wiped out by a secret decision made by faceless men by a process of which the House and the nation had been told nothing.
Mr. Healey: My right hon. Friend was Secretary of State for Air in the Labour Government when that Government decided to produce atomic weapons in Britain in 1947. My right hon. Friend must be aware that if this country is ever wiped out by H-bombs they will be H-bombs dropped by the Soviet Union, and we could never expect to know by what process that Government took that decision. What we can know is that so long as we maintain an invulnerable power to retaliate the likelihood of that decision being taken is almost nil.
Mr. Noel-Baker: That is exactly the point at which I differ from my right hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend bases his whole case on the proposition that the possession of strategic nuclear weapons will prevent the outbreak of a war. He is challenging the opinion of a great many experts in the matter. I will return to this question later.
I am no happier about what the Secretary of State said about the use of so-called tactical nuclear weapons on a European battlefront. I have always thought since 1954, when the general staffs invented the phrase "tactical", that to call any nuclear weapon "tactical" was a deceptive and dangerous misuse of words. I am fortified in this belief by the writings of Sir Solly Zuckerman, whose authority no one will dispute. I welcome warmly some of the phrases which the Secretary of State used this afternoon about tactical nuclear war, and I will examine them with great care in HANSARD tomorrow. However, unless I misunderstood my right hon. Friend, they do not change what he told us a year ago and what he said again in Munich a month ago. He told us—I quote his words—that,
"if there is an all-out Soviet attack on Western Europe then N.A.T.O. exists to ensure that nuclear weapons would be used …and tactical nuclear weapons have a rôle in this respect."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 4th March, 1968; Vol. 760, c. 62.]
The Secretary of State would do well to consult the report which was made by a United Nations Commission of experts in 1967.
My right hon. Friend told us that N.A.T.O. had accepted the doctrine that tactical nuclear weapons are a cheaper option, that to confront the Russians with conventional weapons would cost too much, that on the central front N.A.T.O. is outnumbered by the Warsaw Pact in infantry by two to one, in aircraft by nearly two to one, and in armour by more than three to one. So it was clear, he said in Munich, that tactical nuclears would be required.
I recommend to my right hon. Friend an examination of that view made in 1967 by this Commission of experts, of which Sir Solly Zuckermann was the British Member, Mr. Emelyanov the Russian, Mr. Mukaido the Japanese, and Mr. Randers the Norwegian. They all

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have world-wide reputations, and their collective authority was unchallengeably high. The Commission said:
"In certain quarters, it is still military doctrine that any disparity in the conventional strength of opposing forces could be redressed by using nuclear weapons in the zone of battle."
That is precisely the doctrine my right hon. Friend has put to us today.
Mr. Healey: With respect, that is precisely the doctrine I said was not true, as my right hon. Friend will see if he reads my speech. It does not correct the disparity. Sir Solly Zuckermann, when he participated in that report, was my chief scientific adviser, and I might be expected to be aware of his views.
Mr. Noel-Baker: If the Secretary of State has changed his views, I am delighted. He said the other day that N.A.T.O. existed to ensure that nuclear weapons would be used. The Commission analysed an extensive series of war games or manoeuvres, which Sir Solly, as chief scientist to my right hon. Friend, had seen from the inside. It reached the conclusion from this large volume of experience, which it could interpret in the light of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that:
"It can be firmly stated that, were nuclear weapons to be used they could lead to the devastation of the whole battle zone. Almost everything would be destroyed; forests would be razed to the ground; fires would be raging everywhere; no military operations could go on within the zones of devastation."
If only 400 weapons of an average tactical size—from five to 50 kilotons—were used, the physical damage would be six times that caused by all the bombing in the Second World War; and it would be caused in a few hours or days, and not over six years. The Commission says that the resulting chaos "would be beyond imagination". It argues that the weapons used, if the holocaust once started, would number far more than 400. It seems certain that that is right, when we remember that N.A.T.O. has 7,000 weapons deployed in Europe and that the Soviet Union has at the very least, 1,000.
This led the Commission to the conclusion that:
"It is clear enough that the destruction and disruption that would result from so-called 'tactical' nuclear war would hardly differ from the effects of strategic war in the area concerned."
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That is the best military appreciation that the Secretary of State is likely to get.
Mr. Healey: It is exactly what I said this afternoon.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am very glad that my right hon. Friend is moving from his position of a year ago. If I am misinterpreting him, I hope that he will explain to me in private, or perhaps tomorrow night. I hope that the House will grasp what he is saying now and what the Commission said in 1967, that if the tactical nuclear weapons are used the whole battle area will be destroyed. And if tactical nuclear war should happen, it is almost certain that nuclear attack on interdiction targets would follow, and that an attack on interdiction targets would lead to the general strategic nuclear exchange.
In the light of that, and what my right hon. Friend tells us he said this afternoon, it seems to me grotesque—he will forgive the word—to say that tactical nuclears are the best option for the German people. It seems grotesque to say that his discussions with the German Government about how they should be used are "a landmark in the military history of N.A.T.O." The Secretary of State asked in Munich what he called the unanswerable question:
"Why change a strategy which has worked and shows every sign of continuing to work very well?"
in other words, relying on the threat of nuclear escalation for another 20 years, and perhaps many more after that.
The stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world has risen from 10,000 megatons in 1959 to a million megatons in 1969; in ten years it has been multiplied 100 times. Dr. David Inglis said that 10,000 megatons, the stock in 1958, was "almost unimaginably destructive." So it was, for it was equivalent to half a million Hiroshimas. Now the stock is the equivalent of 50 million Hiroshimas. But, if I understand the Secretary of State, he is ready for that terrible process to go on. He says that if the prospect of nuclear war is disastrous enough there will be no war. Many people said exactly that before 1914, and again before 1939.
Can we really be certain that the nuclear stockpile will not be used? Have we forgotten what President Kennedy said about madness, accident and miscalculation? Have hon. Members read Robert

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Kennedy's account of the Cuba missile crisis in 1962? He described how for 13 days the President's advisers were asked to make
"…recommendations which, if they were wrong and were accepted, could mean the destruction of the human race."
He said:
"That kind of pressure does strange things to a human being…. Even brilliant, self-confident, mature, experienced men found the pressure too overwhelming."
They virtually broke down.
Mr. Crawshaw: Before my right hon. Friend continues on the Cuba crisis, will he tell us what brought pressure to bear on Russia at that time? Was not it the possession of nuclear weapons?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I think that it was the fact that neither Khrushchev nor President Kennedy wanted nuclear war, and both were determined to avoid it. President Kennedy resisted the advice of all his military advisers, who day after day urged him to take action that might have led to nuclear war.
After a few days of these discussions, the President ordered the B.52s into the air, "fully loaded with atomic weapons". As one aircraft finished its patrol and came in to land, "another immediately took its place in the air". I ask the House to consider what might have happened if a pilot with a nuclear bomb load had broken down, as the mature, experienced men in the Cabinet Room broke down. Madness, accident, and miscalculation are real risks. With millions of megatons of weapons in the world and scores of thousands of men trained to use them, with nuclear weapons distributed, I believe, to platoon level in peace time, and with the warheads built into the delivery vessels, the risks are perilously high.
Of course increasing conventional forces is not the answer. It would only give a new impetus to the arms race and increase the risk of nuclear war. There is only one way to eliminate that risk—multilateral world disarmament, including total nuclear disarmament, under international control. It is the policy to which the Labour Party has been committed for 50 years; it is the policy which Arthur Henderson and Robert Cecil brought to the verge of full success in 1932.
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It is the policy upon which this Government was elected to power, and it is the policy which, in his Guildhall speech in November, 1964, the Prime Minister said could not be "shunted into a siding". It must remain, he said, "in the very forefront of international affairs". That policy makes nonsense of paragraph 1 of the White Paper.
I have admired the Secretary of State immensely since I first met him in 1945. I want to appeal to him to consider what I have said. I know that my right hon. Friend has to deal with the day-to-day and the year-to-year problems as he finds them; but if he is thinking within the framework of an arms race that goes on with unrestricted military research for another 20 years, then I say, with all the force at my command, that he is not defending Britain.
My right hon. Friend will start to do so when he gives his mind and his great intellectual and forensic gifts to the task of bringing the arms race to an end, of abolishing the weapons that now threaten to wipe our nation off the map. That is the only real defence policy, as Sir Solly's United Nations Commission proved once more. That is the Secretary of State's overwhelmingly important task, and, more than all his colleagues, he has the duty, and the power, to carry it through.
6.32 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) has reminded the House of his services to the Labour movement over the last 30 years—whatever good that may have done the rest of the country, our interests abroad and stability everywhere in the world. I salute his views although I do not share them. What has always astonished me is that, as the Secretary of State reminded us, he was a senior Minister in the Labour Government for a number of years after the war when, among other things, Lord Attlee spent, I understand, £100 million on developing the atom bomb. If the right hon. Gentleman held these views then I should have thought that he might have found it better to have withdrawn from what the then Government were doing in what they thought was for the defence of the country.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: As almost the first action upon forming a Government in 1945 Lord Attlee proposed to President Truman and Mr. Stalin that the United Nations should adopt a resolution for the total abolition of nuclear weapons. That remained the policy of that Government throughout.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am delighted to hear that. I have a great regard for what Lord Attlee did, particularly in the world government movement, through which I tried to help at that time. He also realised that until there was some practical result it was not right to reduce the defence of this country in the way that the right hon. Gentleman has been suggesting.
There are three points which I want to raise with the Secretary of State. I listened with great interest to what he said on the use of tactical nuclear weapons. For the past three years I have had the privilege to be on the Defence Committee of W.E.U. under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Robert Edwards), who has done an excellent job of work. I also served with the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. Brown), who became a very considerable expert on technology and tactical weapons but who, to the regret of the committee, is no longer a member of it.
The information we got was unclassified, although from time to time we could read between the lines. There was a report, which I was fortunate enough to have the honour to present to the Assembly only last November, No. 440, on the state of European security. There were two paragraphs in that in which it was the unanimous wish of the Committee:
"That guidelines should be formulated by the Nuclear Planning Group concerning the ways in which nuclear weapons, including atomic demolition munitions, could be used in a tactical rôle in the event of aggression."
The right hon. Gentleman answered some of these points in his speech this afternoon.
He said that, particularly after Czechoslovakia, it was realised that conventional forces were inadequate. There must be greater reliance not on tactical nuclear weapons but on the tactical use of nuclear weapons. As the right hon. Gentleman was implying, there is really no difference between the use of the weapons
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tactically and strategically. The Secretary of State was charged by the North Atlantic Council, together with the German Minister of Defence, who was good enough to answer our debate in Paris last November, with the task of contingency planning. I have raised before in the House this matter, because as a result of what is happening in Central Europe, particularly since Czechoslovakia last August, we are waiting rather a long time for the Ministers' report. When the right hon. Gentleman comes to report I hope that some indication will be given not only to the Council but to this House about the sort of lines on which he is thinking.
Mr. Healey: Contingency plans do exist and have existed ever since tactical weapons were deployed in Europe for use in case of war. What Dr. Schroeder and I are charged with doing for the Nuclear Planning Group is the development of political principles for new guidelines which would help the military commanders to revise those plans so as to make them, as I would think, more rational. How much information I shall be able to give the House as this work proceeds will be governed partly by the natural demand of security, but I will do what I can.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: I fully understand. I do not know what stage the discussions between the Government and Opposition have reached over the establishment of a Defence Committee of this House, but it would be useful that both sides should be able to meet and to discuss, without using classified information, in much greater detail than we can in these annual defence debates, the sort of points which the Secretary of State has mentioned. Perhaps when he is considering the replies that he and Herr Schroeder are to make, he will see whether he can inform not only the Defence Committee of W.E.U. but this House.
My second point has to do with our security in the Mediterranean and the Middle East. Here I would call in aid Document No. 462 of W.E.U. These documents are all in the Library. They are some of the best documents produced on current defence and political affairs in Europe and abroad. They are not final reports but rather situation reports carrying on a certain theme which informs

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members of all our Parliaments of what is going on.
I was interested when some time ago the Secretary of State announced that he was developing a European identity within N.A.T.O. I understand that President Nixon on his visit here—and I only know what I read in the newspapers—said that we in Europe have to co-operate more on what we want, and that America would support us, rather than that the United States should try to push some policies on us.
It is vitally important that we in Europe should get on with our own closer association in defence, and in other ways. The United States will then pay more attenion to its relations with the U.S.S.R. and matters such as non-proliferation and ballistic missile systems, defensive and offensive. If we in Europe want any say in the future we have to see what we as Europeans can organise on this side of the Atlantic. I want to give an example, which I have tried to put in Question and Answer to the Secretary of State. That is not a very satisfactory way of doing it, however. In 1965 when I first attended W.E.U. there was not very much support for acton by any State other than Britain in the Mediterranean. If the Secretary of State or his advisers will look at the documents, they will realise that there has been a very great advance in the last two or three years in the understanding in Western Europe of its responsibilities in the Mediterranean as one of the most important flanks of N.A.T.O. M. Franz Goedhart, a friend of many hon. Members, has done a valuable job in following this up with a series of reports.
Another important aspect is that these reports are virtually unanimous, representing some 90 per cent. of the electorate of Western Europe. I told Herr Schroeder in Paris last November that possibly some day some Minister will realise that he has in the Western European Union Assembly representatives of the electorate of Western Europe who are very often ahead of Governments in what they feel should be done about uniting for defence. The specific point which I put to the Secretary of State in this respect is whether we could not develop in the Mediterranean a Western European Union task force, with the addition of Greece and Turkey.
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We say in paragraph 3 of Report No. 462 that there are other N.A.T.O. countries which should be helped to acquire modern patrol craft, both sea and air. Both Greece and Turkey are looking for further equipment. I do not know whether the Secretary of State when he comes to reply can tell us what advance has been made in supplying both air and sea equipment to Greece and Turkey so that they can combine with other countries of Western Europe in forming a task force in the Mediterranean, within N.A.T.O. There is the Sixth Fleet, which I understand is in some respects independent because of certain technical equipment which it has; I believe that, as the Secretary of State himself has said, the presence of the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean, the Gulf and the Indian Ocean is political. From our point of view the political value of a European task force in the Mediterranean could be very considerable.
The political value could take the form of naval visits to non-aligned and allied countries in Europe: this would give them the feeling that we Europeans are making a joint effort—one which, in the circumstances, will not introduce into their areas the nuclear capability which they believe is held both by the Sixth Fleet and by the Russian naval forces. I believe, therefore, that the political aspect of visits by such a European task force would be of very considerable political value in the immediate period ahead. Probably, increased support in Europe for action in the Eastern Mediterranean has been because of the need to keep a balance in Arab-Israeli relations until, as we all pray, Herr Jarring, by his Mission, produces some relaxation there. But I believe that in the immediate future that is one area in which we in Europe can show our North American allies that we can put forward constructive ideas in which we in Britain can take a lead.
I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) has pointed out that Malta is to be used more in the future. Possibly, again, the Secretary of State when he comes to reply will tell us what is the present position over the defence treaty with Malta and how far we have both recognised each other's rights under this. I believe we should go further and try

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to bring Malta into the comity of Western Europe or N.A.T.O. in certain technical ways which I need not now go into.
My third and last point is on east of Suez. I am delighted that the Leader of the Opposition should have said that in Canberra and that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) should today have repeated—and here I quote what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition—that
"we as a party, after consultation with our Commonwealth partners and allies, shall want to maintain a presence in the area east of Suez."
I have no fear of being called reactionary, imperialist or any of those things. Any of us who has worked on this in the past years and listened to individuals like our Malaysian friends will realise that it is a question not of imperialism but of joint defence of their interests and ours.
I for one do not believe that we can run out of all our responsibilities and obligations throughout the world. I believe we have not just economic but moral responsibilities to many of the countries which look towards us. I regard this as being not a policeman, but sensible, as honouring our treaties—and there are a number in that area. There is also the unwritten association with Commonwealth countries such as this country honoured in India in 1962. Nor do I believe that it will, or need, cost a great deal of money—certainly nothing like the Secretary of State has implied in his various speeches. I believe it can be done fairly reasonably and that on much the same basis as the Russians maintain a presence in the Mediterranean, we can do the same in the Gulf and in other parts of the Indian Ocean. It means, of course, that we must have bases somewhere where we can maintain our ships. I am not thinking here of large land forces. Indeed, it is possible for there to be no land forces at all. Clearly, we must have sea and air forces to support our friends and allies in the area east of Suez.
Mr. Dalyell: The hon. Gentleman always makes well-informed speeches, but can he put no figure to the cost of his proposal? I should have thought a
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fairly modest estimate would be £200 million.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: I should have thought a quarter or less—but never having been a Defence Minister I am not in a position to make even a guess. Certainly it is nothing like the cost of the forces, before being run down, after the successful confrontation in Malaysia, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman in particular will reckon to have been well worth while.
Mr. Shinwell: Why does the hon. Gentleman say he believes this will not cost money?
Mr. Dodds-Parker: I did not.
Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Gentleman started off in that way. Has he made no assessment of the cost? He speaks of bases being required and sea and air equipment being necessary. This will cost a lot of money, and we should have some idea how much.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: As a former Minister of Defence, the right hon. Gentleman will know that these things cannot be done without some money, but I believe the sea and air commitment would be nothing like the figure which the Secretary of State has been trying to pin on this party in circumstances when we cannot estimate what it might cost.
That brings me to my final point. We have to be prepared to make some sacrifice for freedom. I was one of those brought up in the 1930s under disarmament and the collective security of the sheep against the wolf; and, however much one may want to go on spending more and more money on social development here in this country, I believe—and I believe the right hon. Gentleman also believes with others—that we must make some sacrifice for freedom not just for ourselves but for our friends in Europe, the Mediterranean and east of Suez.
6.48 p.m.
Mr. Roland Moyle: I hope the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken will forgive me if I do not follow him directly, because I wish to start by drawing attention to an aspect of military life which has not been referred to in this debate but which I have referred to on similar previous occasions, namely, that group of military activities going by the

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technical name of "Opmacc"—operation military aid to the civil community. I particularly want to make this contribution because, as the result of heavy flooding in my constituency on 14th and 15th September last, when torrential rain fell in the London area, I had the misfortune to have experience of an "Opmacc" situation.
As a result of the heavy rain on the night of the 14th and on 15th September last water was six feet deep in the London Borough of Lewisham by the morning of the 15th; and by mid-day of the 17th September we had numbers of military and R.A.F. units assisting the local authority in its rescue and welfare work, following that particular cataclysm. The London Borough of Lewisham and its residents and myself are very grateful for the prompt and cheerful assistance which the members of the Armed Services extended to my constituents and the hard work which they did. Their efforts were very much appreciated.
I attended the Deptford Town Hall, which is one of the buildings still owned by the London Borough of Lewisham, on the morning of the 16th and had a word with the welfare committee, which was looking after the relief operations. It was then borne in on me that the London Borough of Lewisham, although it wished to call in the military, had very little idea about how to go about it. One of our dynamic young clergymen vouchsafed the information that he had a friend at the Royal Naval College at Greenwich. He was able to contact his friend, who promised him that there were a couple of boats at Chatham which could be brought to Lewisham if they were needed for relief purposes.
There is also no doubt that the gap between the fall of the rain on the nights of 14th and 15th September and the arrival of the military units at midday on the 17th was a little longer than I would have wished.
Mr. Philip Goodhart: Might the gap have been a little narrower if the civil defence organisation had still existed?
Mr. Moyle: I doubt it very much. The point was made to me at the time that the standards of operation of the civil defence were not of the sort which
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would encourage me to believe that they would have been in action before the Armed Forces.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some units mobilised themselves and went out without any instructions from headquarters?
Mr. Moyle: That is very encouraging But that situation did not appertain in Lewisham. There was a gap which could have been closed and this resulted from lack of knowledge of the machinery by which the military might be called to the assistance of the civilian population.
Although my borough council is controlled by my political opponents, I am not unduly partisan and I decided to assume for the purposes of the exercise that possibly on this rare occasion Lewisham was correct and that the fault lay elsewhere.
I therefore wrote to my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Defence and the Minister of Housing and Local Government and made a number of suggestions about how I thought that "Opmacc" might be improved and I asked who was responsible for calling up the Armed Forces in these situations and how it was to be done. I had a fairly prompt reply from the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who was eager to collect information from local authorities about their experience in the flood. But clearly his reply implied that he thought that calling out the troops was the responsibility of the Secretary of State.
In due course, I received a reply from the Secretary of State's Department. It answered a number of points which I had made, but finished by clearly indicating that the responsibility for calling out troops in an emergency probably lay with the Home Secretary. At this juncture, I came to the conclusion that this was probably a matter for the Prime Minister to look into. Therefore, on 28th November last, I tabled a Question to the Prime Minister, which unfortunately was not reached during Question Time, and asked him which Minister was responsible for ensuring that the Armed Forces reacted to the pleas of local authorities on these occasions. The written reply was:
"Ministerial authority is not required. Units of the Armed Services have been instructed to provide assistance immediately on request by local and other authorities when there

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is danger to life or for any other urgent reason."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1968; Vol. 774, c. 181.]
I was, therefore, back with the poor old London Borough of Lewisham, which clearly did not know what to do.
I was girding my loins for further battle when I was happy to receive in January this year this blue-covered military pamphlet entitled "Military Aid to the Civil Community", which answers all the questions brought to my mind as a result of the flooding disaster in Lewisham. It is clear from this pamphlet that military aid to the civil community is to fall into three groups. The first is aid in times of disaster; the second is routine assistance or bridge-building and civil engineering work of that sort; and, thirdly, full-time attachment of Service personnel to welfare and other sorts of organisations.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We are discussing the White Paper, not the pamphlet. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not pursue this matter in too much detail.
Mr. Moyle: I think that there is reference in the White Paper to military aid to the civil community. I expect that the second and third categories will go off without difficulty, but there may be some marginal friction from time to time. This always occurs between organisations when they try to work together, but generally those two sides of the operation will go smoothly and will redound to the advantage of local authorities and the image of the Armed Forces.
The first category, assistance in times of emergency, will be a much more tricky business altogether. The key point in these operations is not that help arrives when a disaster overtakes an area, but the amount of time which elapses between the disaster and the arrival of the Armed Forces. With every hour which elapses from the disaster to the arrival of the Armed Forces, the question "Where are they?" is asked with growing insistence. The key to the operation by the Armed Forces will be speed of reaction.
I do not think that, given that the Armed Forces will be concentrated in and around this country to a much greater extent in the years to come, they could very well have avoided undertaking this commitment. For them not to do so would have led to a deterioration in their
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image which would not have boded well for them. On the other hand, if they expect the public to rise up in a euphoria of gratitude as a result of their undertaking this commitment, they may be in for a sad and sorry surprise.
I hope that the eminent military gentlemen whose appointments and telephone numbers are listed in the pamphlet will undertake a considerable amount of forethought and pre-planning as a result of the responsibilities which they have been given. They should first try to work out what military units would be available in a few hours within their areas of responsibility if a disaster overtook them, how rapidly they could deploy them, and what aid they could provide to local authorities. This covers the Navy and the R.A.F., because the Army has been given the responsibility of coordinating all three Services in this type of operation. This will have to be continuing work of the staff officers concerned.
Secondly, they should organise conferences with their local authorities in order to educate local authority officers about the assistance they can give and the time gap within which they can give it. In my youth in the Army there was an exercise called a "T.E.W.T.", or "Tactical Exercise without Troops". A few such "T.E.W.T.s" might be a good idea in connection with "Opmacc" so that teams of Service officers and local authorities could get together in an exercise to work out solutions involving typical military aid to the civil community and how soon the Services could provide assistance.
Once the public get used to the idea of the Services arriving on the scene at the time of disaster, three questions will be asked. The first will be, "We pay them, don't we?" The second will be "It is one of their jobs, isn't it?" The third will be, "Where are they, then?" These questions will be perfectly logical from the point of view of the average member of the public faced with disaster. My fear is that in undertaking these operations the Armed Forces may end up as a sort of public football, rather like the poor old Southern Region in my part of the country. The Minister of State will have a very clear idea of what I mean by that comment.

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I should like to turn to the broader aspects of the White Paper and congratulate my right hon. Friend on the clarity and lucidity of the exposition which he contains in it and the wealth of information and detail which he has given us. This follows the tradition which he has adopted in past White Papers and I am glad to see it going forward. It begins with a clear statement of the orientation of our defence policy towards Europe. In a colourful phrase at a recent Press conference, my right hon. Friend described the reason for this orientation as saying that one could withdraw British forces from east of Suez but could not tow the British Isles away from Europe. That is a good way of putting it in a nutshell. But, in past centuries, a number of our statesmen and military leaders were men of remarkable incompetence, yet this fact, upon which he bases his defence policy, had probably been discovered by all of them.
In those past centuries, our interest in the defence of Western Europe was not one for ourselves alone, but was shared by a great number of our allies. We have always found someone prepared to undertake the burden of defence in Western Europe, who probably had to undertake it even to a greater extent than we did. We developed a sort of division of labour, whereby these people looked after the defence of Western Europe, while we deployed a global mobility to the great advantage of any alliance of which we were members and also to the great advantage, in particular, of the British people.
In carrying out this approach, we have had some pretty ropey allies. We have relied on outnumbered Dutch burghers, unsympathetic Prussian militarists, effete Austrian imperialists, the military helots of the Czar, fugitive French aristocrats, disorganised Spanish guerrillas and many others. What is striking in our present defence posture is that we now have an ally who is capable of defending Western Europe militarily from any outside threat and whose philosophy of government is not inimical to our own—namely, the United States of America—and, at this juncture in our history, we have decided to concentrate our major defence effort on Western Europe.
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The policy of my right hon. Friend is clear. He wants to ensure that the Americans will take an interest in the defence of Western Europe by concentrating our forces on Western Europe and by indicating thereby to the Americans that they are helping those who help themselves. He wants to maintain the strength of N.A.T.O. in that way, as I do, because he believes that a strong N.A.T.O. is a way of encouraging the United States to show an interest in the defence of Western Europe.
But he is working against a background of American public opinion, which wants to get out of Western Europe. There is no doubt about this. They say—I found this a general reaction when I was over there in the autumn—"If these European nations are rich enough to read us the Riot Act on our balance of payments, they are rich enough to look after their own defence, and we expect them to do so". I agree with my right hon. Friend to this extent, that, if we do not maintain a strong defence of Western Europe, the Americans will become disillusioned with Western Europe sooner rather than later, and will start pulling their troops out. We wish to avoid this.
The point which we must remember also is this—supposing that we succeeded, not only in our own contribution but in encouraging contributions from our allies, in building up a viable European contribution to the defence of Western Europe, what will be the position then? There is a very grave risk that the Americans will say, "Good boys; now you can look after yourselves and we can all go home". We may still be under the nuclear umbrella of the Americans, but no European would believe that the Americans would use nuclear weapons to defend Western Europe if they did not see American troops in direct danger from the Soviet Union from the day that war broke out.
To that extent, therefore, we must do all that we can to encourage the American troops to stay in Western Europe. Yet our defence policy seems to me to be in grave danger of moving down this blind alley, that, whether we increase our forces to Western Europe or decrease them, the Americans are likely to want to go home, and another reading of the balance of payments Riot Act by the

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Western European bankers to the United States could well tip the balance, no matter what individual American leaders may say.
This is not a fear which I alone have. I came across a very interesting address by Professor Hans Speier at Munich not long ago. Referring to the meeting of the N.A.T.O. Ministers on 14th November, held after the Czechoslovakian invasion, he said:
"… Washington made it clear that it expected the European allies to reverse budget-cutting trends with regard to defence. As Ambassador Harlan Cleveland has pointed out, 'the new pledges of men, material and money, announced at the November 14 Ministerial meeting of N.A.T.O. were a big step in this direction. And, for the first time in Alliance history, the lion's share—80 to 90 per cent. of the new effort—was contributed by the Europeans'."
My right hon. Friend's policy is working.
But here we come to the other point. Professor Speier continued:
"… for a while at least the divisive issues troubling the alliance seemed to have receded. The question is, for how long? On January 18"—
after these massive new commitments by the Europeans, Mr. Clark Clifford,
"in commenting on the defense budget, said that the adverse balance of payments was forcing planners in the Pentagon to contemplate cut-backs of American expenditures in Western Europe and in Japan and Okinawa."
This is the danger that I see for the future.
Mr. Healey: I have followed everything that my hon. Friend has said so far. He suggested that these dangers were created by our defence policy. The fact is that these are dangers to which our defence policy is well adapted, which ever way the thing goes. I am sure that he would agree that, if we can encourage a greater American commitment for longer, so much the better. If we fail, the fact that we have more ourselves will guarantee our security.
Mr. Moyle: My right hon. Friend has to some extent anticipated me. I would say to my hon. Friends—I notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) has left the Chamber—that they are calling in this context for a reduction in our military expenditure of £650 million in one year. In the present context, what they are asking
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for is an eventual cut in the complex of forces, air, land and sea, and logistic support which we refer to by the shorthand name of the British Army of the Rhine.
They will realise that I am no particular friend of B.A.O.R., as I have said many times in previous defence debates, but, if they are calling for cuts of that magnitude, although some will come from the automatic concentration of our defence forces on Europe, some will have to come from the British Army of the Rhine. The point which they should remember is that if we cut back on B.A.O.R. this will almost inevitably lead to a cut-back by the Americans in Europe. If this happens we shall eventually be handing over the balance of military power in West Central Europe to the German army, and it may be a German army which is nuclear-armed by that time. That is the danger which we must face.
Therefore, much as I regret our present situation, there is no need for the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) to make pleas to my right hon. Friend to avoid further cuts in the arms budget. I believe that the law of this situation is preventing us from making further cuts, because I am sure that my hon. Friends will not want to see the German army the sole or major military factor in Central Europe. I certainly do not and, what is more important, the Russians will not. So we are moving down to a situation in which our main military expenditure is stuck on the north European plane, which is historically the land of the bloody and casualty-rich confrontation. It is the land of the annual wrangle over support costs. It is the land of the fiction that what the Germans buy from us they buy because they want to support the Rhine Army, whereas I strongly suspect they would buy that sort of equipment anyway. It is the land where not even the army has sufficient room to train. Here we are, stuck on this hook.
I can see a possible solution to our problems; that we would have to reach agreement with our Allies that the Americans would stay in Europe in their present strength, that our allies would allow us to have a say in the formulation of policy in Europe, at the same time as allowing us to reduce substantially our

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commitment of forces to Europe, provided that we undertook to find a part of the world where the alliance's interests were important, where there were no European or American troops already and where we would be welcome and possibly they would not be. It may be that many of my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite can think of such an area, and that would be the East of Suez area from which we have withdrawn.
It is for this reason that I welcome the fact that we still have general capability. I am quite aware that the time for an agreement of that sort is not at present propitious. The Americans want to get out of Asia in the same way as they want to get out of Europe, but I do not believe that the world's strongest military and economic power will be able to keep clear of a power vacuum for more than a short period of time. I do not want to elaborate on this, but my view is that they will at some stage be drawn back into the Asiatic area unless there is someone there to help them bear the burden. I think that grounds exist for a possible agreement in the future, and for this reason I welcome the general capability, which seems to have been somewhat upgraded since the last White Paper.
We have in the White Paper a description of the general capability which goes a little further than last year's White Paper. Paragraph 26 says:
"… we must ensure that we still have forces that can operate effectively outside Europe as required …and to make whatever contributions we judge to be necessary and practicable towards keeping the peace in other parts of the world."
Last year we got the impression that the general capability existed only in so far as the Armed Forces would be capable of moving outside Europe to some extent.
These forces consist of a brigade group, a substantial number of ships, several squadrons of combat aircraft of all types and an amphibious force. According to the White Paper the jungle training facilities in South East Asia are to be retained. We also see from the newspapers of the last day or two that Australia and New Zealand will be keeping troops in Malaysia.
We must hang on to this skeleton arrangement in the hope that one day we may be able to clothe it with the flesh
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of an agreement which will get us off the military hook on which we are hanging at present by putting all our eggs in the Western European basket. In maintaining this skeleton we run the risk that if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite form a Government they will use that skeleton to make sure that we return to our pre-1968 position of being strong in Europe and strong in South-East Asia, and they will tie a cannon ball round the ankle of the British people in the commercial race in which they are engaged with Germany, Japan and other countries. But we have to take that risk.
I shall support my right hon. Friend in the Division Lobby tomorrow night, because he has performed one great function and that is, after years of an opposite trend, he has got British defence expenditure moving towards a general level which is compatible with our competitive position with our European colleagues and allies in the commercial world. It is a very great achievement to reverse the upward and continuing trend which he inherited from the party opposite. He should be given full credit for this, and therefore I shall be prepared to support him.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that many hon. Gentlemen wish to speak. Reasonably brief speeches will help.
7.15 p.m.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I have listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle). I am to a certain extent in agreement with him, although not with the conclusions at which he finally arrived.
I was particularly interested by what the hon. Member said about the American attitude towards the defence of Europe. He showed us as being in danger of disaster whatever we did. He said that there was a danger, if the European allies did too much to help themselves, that the Americans would decide that they could safely leave us to carry on on our own; equally, if we did not do enough, the Americans would give us up and themselves pull out. The second danger is by far the greater one, the danger that the American Government may be tempted to yield to the popular pressure

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which exists and say, "If the Europeans are not going to help themselves, we are not going to help them either."
That being the danger, I am not persuaded that the Government's defence policy as set out in the White Paper and in the utterances of the Secretary of State is calculated to convince our American allies that we and our other friends in Europe mean business and are not simply sheltering under the American nuclear umbrella. The hon. Gentleman mentioned a T.E.W.T. I sometimes feel that the Government are trying to carry the concept of the T.E.W.T. to its logical conclusion by having a defence policy without troops.
This year the Secretary of State has taken the unusual step of prefacing his White Paper by two public pronouncements, both made in Germany and both a good deal more interesting than the White Paper, as indeed was his speech today. The right hon. Gentleman is always self-confident but, as I hope to show, he is never more so than when he is contradicting himself, and I think probably never with better reason.
It is to the running commentary by the Secretary of State on his White Paper that I want to address myself, in particular to what he said in the House and outside it about what used to be called the nuclear threshold. It now seems to have fallen into oblivion.
We all know that the Secretary of State's Munich lecture at the beginning of February caused quite a stir. It caused the Russians to denounce the right hon. Gentleman as a threat to peace. It caused the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) to call him either a hawk or a whore; I could not quite work out which it was, but I do not think either term of abuse was justified. Finally, it caused Lord Wigg to give vent to a notable turnover article in The Times.
The reason why it caused such a stir was that the Secretary of State in his lecture made what many people thought were some very wild and alarming statements. What worries me is that on closer inspection the most alarming of all the statements seems all too likely to be true—namely, that nuclear escalation would be the only alternative to surrender in case of a major Soviet attack. He
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went on to say that conventional defence would not be possible in Europe for more than a few days. That in itself is disturbing enough. What disturbs me even more is the bland air of satisfaction with which he trots it out, without any suggestion that anything more need be done about it; and I do not think that we have got much further forward having listened to him this afternoon, either.
All this gives me what the French call a sense of the déjà vu, the already seen. This is where I came in or, rather, where I went out. It was on the issue of adequate conventional weapons versus streamlined nuclear forces that some of us parted company with Mr. Macmillan way back in January, 1957. After all these discussions on the theme in the intervening time, after all that has been said on both sides of the House and on both sides of the Atlantic, and after all that the Secretary of State and his right hon. Friends have said, especially in their 1964 Election Manifesto, it is rather disheartening to find the right hon. Gentleman coming up with ideas which correspond so closely to those set forth in the famous Defence White Paper of 1957, about which he himself was so contemptuous, right to the old doctrine of streamlined nuclear forces and a bigger bang for a buck, the main difference being that, whereas in 1957 we still had substantial conventional forces, we now have greatly reduced ones.
In 1965, commenting on that year's Defence White Paper, which was the right hon. Gentleman's first one, The Times wrote of the Government's "imperceptible slide into nuclear strategy". Since then it has become a regular Gadarene rush, as our conventional strength becomes less and less impressive and we have to depend more and more on nuclear weapons or nothing at all.
But the Secretary of State seems blissfully oblivious to all the warnings, even to those that he used to issue himself. It is as though he grasped none of the horrifying implications of what he is now saying, as though he were perfectly satisfied with the prospect of suicide or surrender. Because, as Lord Wigg has pointed out so forcefully, that is what his policy amounts to. As everyone with a grain of sense has been saying for years, it is not realistic to try to distinguish

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between tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, and I am glad that the Secretary of State went some way at any rate to recognising that today.
To imagine that it is possible to use one without the other in a sort of part-conventional part-nuclear war neatly regulated by Queensberry rules is ridiculous. Who will stand by and watch his troops and equipment methodically wiped out and himself defeated by so-called tactical nuclear weapons when he has up his sleeve the means of putting paid to the whole shooting match, if that is the right expression? Anyhow, what constitutes a legitimate target for a tactical nuclear weapon? Would it be Wellington Barracks, or Westminster Bridge? If so, one or two other things might go too.
The first tactical nuclear weapon let off by either side is bound to be followed within hours, if not minutes, by an exchange of strategic nuclear weapons, and that, to all intents and purposes, will be the end of us.
Mr. Dalyell: The House always listens to the hon. Gentleman with care. Using the Head/Wigg argument, to what extent would the hon. Gentleman increase the conventional forces? Using that argument, up to what level is it necessary to bring conventional forces?
Sir F. Maclean: If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, he will hear what I have to say on that a little later in my speech.
I was talking of the rapidity with which we should pass from tactical nuclear warfare to strategic nuclear warfare, and I am sure that I do not need to recall to hon. Members that it is from that that we get the term "escalation". Nowadays, it is used indiscriminately with reference to everything from Welsh Nationalism to mini-skirts, but its original application was to the process by which when one Power let off a tactical "nuke", its adversary retaliated with a strategic one. That is why, if we feel able to discount, as I think we can up to a point, the intervention of a Dr. Strange-love, nuclear weapons are not very likely to be used. That in turn is why the right hon. Gentleman's famous dictum which I quoted just now emerges not so much as the stern warning which it seemed to be at first sight, but rather as an invitation to our adversaries to go ahead and do as they like, to pursue a
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policy of salami tactics when and where they choose, on the assumption, whether justified or not, that when it comes to the point no one will face obliteration for a corner of someone else's territory.
As we see from what is happening round Berlin now and, for that matter, on the Soviet-Chinese frontier, these salami tactics and limited probes and excursions are far more likely than the major Soviet attack about which the right hon. Gentleman keeps talking. What is probable is a periodic nibbling away of territory and of freedom until, one day, we are faced with the prospect of suicide or surrender. It is for that reason that the right hon. Gentleman's declaration like that other Munich declaration of 30 years ago, is so terribly dangerous. It leaves too much room for misunderstanding, too much scope for doubt and uncertainty, and too many opportunities for a terrifying game of what might be called Russian roulette
Surely, the doctrine of a bigger bang for a buck as the be-all and end-all of defence policy was discarded years ago. Surely we no longer believe in the words of the 1958 White Paper that we are poised between total war and total peace. We know better than that by now. We have all come to accept the late President Kennedy's view that we must have what he once called a wider choice than humiliation or all-out nuclear action. That is the reason why there has been so much talk over the years about the need for a higher nuclear threshold, for a flexible response, and the need to give time for hot-line diplomacy. Surely that was not all verbiage and empty semantics
The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) mentioned Cuba. Was it not clearly demonstrated at the time of Cuba that at a moment of crisis it is the Power with superior conventional forces on the spot that has the upper hand and that can, if it plays its cards right, impose the solution which it desires? In that case, it so happens that the solution desired was a peaceful one. But not only does the Secretary of State announce now that there is no nuclear threshold at all, that it has, as it were, gone through the floor. He says it with every sign of satisfaction and no hint of a suggestion that anything needs to be done about sit.

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Then, in the same breath, the Secretary of State announces another blinding truth, that he and his allies—but mostly his allies—can blow the Soviet Mediterranean fleet out of the water "in minutes". Of course they can. But they will not do it, because the situation will not arise. I should be disturbed if the Russians withdrew their fleet from its exposed position in the Mediterranean. That would mean that they really meant business. The Soviet fleet, as the Secretary of State said, is in the Mediterranean not for military but for political purposes. It is engaging in large-scale gunboat diplomacy. It is its presence, the fact that it is there, that counts.
To take one example, a landing of the kind that the Americans carried out so successfully in the Lebanon ten years ago would not be nearly such an easy proposition today.
What it comes to is that a conventional deterrent is very nearly as important as a nuclear deterrent, and a conventional deterrent is just what the Secretary of State has told us we do not have.
If we are to do this, I can only imagine, after all that he and his right hon. Friends have been saying over the years, that his judgment must have been warped by his realisation—he has been at it a long time—of the appalling inadequacy of our conventional defences, of the terrifyingly poor recruiting figures in all three Services, of the lack of adequate reserves or of adequate home defence, of the irreparable harm done by successive defence cuts, and by the realisation, perhaps, that some of our European allies are not in very much better shape. I can only imagine that all these considerations, taken together, have driven him to fall back on the counsel of despair summed up in the phrase "Suicide or surrender".
Mr. Dalyell rose—
Sir F. Maclean: No. I have given way once already.
Mr. Dalyell: What is a conventional deterrent?
Sir F. Maclean: If the hon. Member has not made out what a conventional deterrent is, he should not come to the debate.
Mr. Dalyell: In terms of number.
Sir F. Maclean: Frankly, I am not making a party political speech, but I believe that if the present recruiting trends continue, someone before long will have to take a tough decision. We shall have either to give up trying altogether or to reintroduce some form of conscription. Some of the measures taken by the Government recently concerning reserves might be interpreted as pointers in that direction. What is more, our allies will have to take equally difficult decisions of one kind or another.
The Government—and I am the first to admit that there is a certain logic in what they have done—have followed the advice of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and drastically reduced our commitments. But still we do not have enough men to fulfil the commitments that remain. That is the disturbing thing. Everywhere, despite the disbandments and the amalgamations, units are under strength and overstretched. And we all know how bad that is for morale and for recruiting. We are in a vicious circle. Our reserves are totally inadequate, our home defences are non-existent. That—and the corresponding shortcomings and shortages of our allies—has been made abundantly clear by the Secretary of State, and it is likely to become clearer still as time goes on.
The Secretary of State may be unduly pessimistic. He may be over estimating the strength of the Warsaw Pact Powers. Personally, I doubt it. But in any case, I beg him, before it is too late, to have another think and to consult with our allies to see whether it would be possible for us and for them, by one means or another, to do better. We must remember that what is at stake is peace or war. We are spending proportionately half as much as the Warsaw Pact Powers on our defences, and as a result we are twice as weak. We must see whether we really cannot increase, at any rate to some extent, our respective conventional contributions to N.A.T.O. I am all for getting our allies to come up to our level rather than, as one hon. Member suggested, our coming down to theirs. We must try to raise the nuclear threshold to hold in check the Soviet tendency to salami tactics. I am not just talking about this country; I am talking about the alliance as a whole. We must try to

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win time—and this is the most important thing—in an emergency for hot-line diplomacy—for "jaw-jaw", as Sir Winston Churchill called it, rather than "war-war"—and in this way perhaps lessen the likelihood of a nuclear holocaust.
7.35 p.m.
Mr. Desmond Donnelly: I agree wholeheartedly with almost every word of the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean). He said, in effect, that we needed more men and that eventually we may need more money and that this was probably the best insurance policy this country could have in face of the danger of nuclear war. I hope to develop each of these points in some detail in the brief period I venture to detain the House.
Last year's debate took place very much in the aftermath of the trauma of the British withdrawal from east of Suez. This year's debate takes place in a different situation: much more on an assessment of the new objectives of this country and an assessment on how these objectives are being carried out. I will say a few words in turn about the various aspects of the United Kingdom's defence arrangements, which go wider than the defence policy itself.
On home defence, we have two central objectives. The first priority of the Government of any country in the world—it need not necessarily be the overriding priority, but it is the first—is the maintenance of internal security, which is the maintenance of the Government. Secondly, there must be defence of the home base. This is what the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) speaks about so often, and which has been too readily adopted on the benches on this side of the House.
First, internal security. What have we got? It is true, as the Secretary of State said, that while our Forces in this country are under N.A.T.O. command they can, in certain circumstances, under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation arrangements be used for internal purposes. But if they were not available in every crisis of emergency, we would be in a very vulnerable position. All we would have would be the internal police force, unarmed on the whole. We could find ourselves, in any kind of overall
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European emergency, in a very serious internal situation. The point is that the defending forces have very little opportunity for any regular exercises of their defence, whereas subversion forces undertake their exercises virtually every weekend in this country.
Secondly, the military defence of the United Kingdom. I do not think that anyone would venture to say that the United Kingdom could be defended alone within these islands—except perhaps the rather exaggerated argument of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. But I do not think that even he sees it purely in terms of the United Kingdom. He is prepared to go a good deal wider into Europe. But is Europe sufficient? Is it not necessary for us to look still wider? I will come back to that point later.
What about the European arrangements? The Secretary of State spoke this afternoon about the objectives of N.A.T.O. This is common ground between hon. Members, but, as the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire said, the nuclear threshold is non-existent. The reason for that is that the European countries are not spending enough money, and are not providing enough effort, to maintain a high enough threshold. It is a challenge which faces not only this country, but every European country. To some extent they are more culpable than we are, but there is still, nevertheless, a problem, and there is no way of getting round it.
What about possible potential threats in Europe? They may be coming from wider areas than Europe itself, but I was astonished earlier today to hear the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) speaking about possible mutual security arrangements, and diminution of forces, and all this in the immediate aftermath of the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Some people never seem to realise the kind of climate in which we are living. There is no substitute for a straight, frank look in the mirror at the situation as it is today. I wish it were different. We all wish it were different, but that invasion of Czechoslovakia was a grim event in European history.
To depart for a moment or two from the argument of a non-nuclear threshold, perhaps I might introduce another

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thought. I wonder how many hon. Members would be so certain that the Russians would have invaded Czechoslovakia if the Czechs had had a nuclear deterrent of some kind. It is questionable whether they would have. The credibility of a deterrent is largely a matter of judgment, but I think that it would have caused gentlemen in the Kremlin to have pondered.
I come back to the general argument of a non-nuclear threshold, because this is really what the central argument today is about. In Europe it is not there, and it is not going to be there under the present set of policies that are being pursued. We therefore have to have more men. Unless we can attract more men, we shall have to conscript more men. Whether they are on a selective basis or not, there is no alternative to this, and of the N.A.T.O. and Warsaw Pact countries, how few are able to dispense with some form of national service? How few are able to dispense with national service altogether? The answer is, very few indeed, and surely this lesson has relevance to the kind of argument that we have to have today?
When one looks wider than Europe, one has to appreciate that the defence of our country and of our national interest is not necessarily geared entirely to Europe, because lines of communications for the supplies which make life possible in these islands are extremely long. The Secretary of State, in his famous Munich speech—and I must say that very little good ever comes out of Munich these days—spoke about sinking the Russian fleet in a matter of a few minutes. It is not the fleet on the surface that counts. It is the fleet below the water that matters, and we face the most formidable under-water fleet ever known in the history of the world.
When we recognise that the Germans, at the height of the Battle of the Atlantic, which they nearly won, had a maximum of 27 submarines at sea at any given time, and when we realise that the Russians have more than 380 submarines, of which 55 are nuclear-powered and have been undertaking exercises in almost every sea in the world, and have a worldwide capability, we can appreciate the extent of the potential threat.
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It is not necessary for the Russians to declare war direct on the British Isles, or on any European country. It is not necessary to move one soldier across a single frontier. The Russians can bring the whole of the means of life in these Islands to a halt in a matter of a few weeks without doing any of those things, simply by the use of this new flexibility of sea-power which they have suddenly discovered. The discovery of sea power by the Soviet Union is an event of profound importance in the history of the world. It is shifting balances very considerably.
There is another aspect of this, which was referred to in an admirable speech by the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle), and later by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire, namely, the changed mood in the United States of America. We are in a vulnerable position whichever way we go. If we do not do enough, they may say, "We have had enough of the Europeans" and pack up and go home. If we do too much, they may say, "They can look after themselves. Why should not we go home?" These possibilities are there, but the central problem is the internal situation in the United States. The growth of a new modern form of isolationism stems to some extent from the isolated position in which the United States found itself in the Vietnam war. We would be unwise not to look five or ten years ahead and not think that there will be a substantial shift in internal thinking in the United States. It is not a question of Governments. The Government are very often in advance of public opinion. It is that solid American middle-Western thinking which is beginning to reassert itself, and this is the problem.
We have on the one hand the growth of Soviet influence as the development of sea power proceeds. We have on the other a pulling back of American effort in different parts of the world. It is starting in Vietnam, but it is having an effect, and it will have an increasing effect in the next few years in other parts of the world, and simultaneous to this comes the British withdrawal from the Middle East and Singapore. This is what makes our actions so dangerous.
The Middle Eastern situation could explode at any moment. Somebody paid tribute to the way in which we had useful

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ideas to contribute in the Middle East to preserve peace, but I wonder, after our record over the last few years. The Gulf area is of vital interest to us. We have a huge investment of about £2,000 million, revenues of about £500 million a year, and returns to the British Treasury of about £250 million a year. If these were all suddenly stopped, and they may still wither quite rapidly in the mid-1970s as British influence is withdrawn, we may find ourselves in a situation in which the standard of life in this country will have been prejudiced by a lack of courage, and by the defence decisions taken in the lifetime of this Parliament.
The hon. Member for Lewisham, North spoke about the need to maintain some sort of embryonic foothold in South-East Asia. I agree with the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Ronald Atkins: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that many countries, Japan in particular, which spends 0·9 per cent. of its g.n.p. on arms. Germany, and many others which are not well armed, are increasing their influence by trading in those areas?
Mr. Donnelly: That is an old argu ment, and it was answered very effectively by that sound thinker Sir Robert Thompson who, in a broadcast about a year ago, said that where Japanese or German businessmen see a British tommy walking down the street of an Asian city, on the basis of a "Wotcher, cock?" relationship with the locals, they know that it is safe to invest £1 million in that area.
These areas are invaluable to us economically. A sum of £500 million a year on our balance of payments is not to be sneezed at. Investment worth £2,000 million is not to be sneezed at. Investment of £600 million in Malaysia is not to be forgotten, but it would not be there now had it not been for the British forces being present at the time of confrontation with Indonesia. This is the central point. These things exist only if people have the will to maintain them. The problem is a lack of will, and this is really what I come back to in the central theme of my speech.
The problem is a lack of will in our defence arrangements. What the hon.
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Member for Bute and North Ayrshire said is right. The charge against the Government is that it promised adequate arrangements and the maintenance of forces east of Suez, and it then broke its promise. It made new promises about dates. It re-broke those promises. It promised that it would have an adequate naval replacement programme. It has broken that promise. It undertook a commitment on the TSR2. It broke up that aircraft wantonly at a cost of hundreds of millions of £s and undertook to buy American planes. It cancelled these and had to pay compensation for them.
Mr. Robert Howarth: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I seek your guidance? As I understand it, it is customary to alternate speakers between the two sides of the House. As the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) does not now accept the Government Whip, is he now to be followed by an hon. Member on the Government side?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): The hon. Gentleman must leave it to the Chair to ensure that a proper, balance is kept in debate.
Mr. Donnelly: It does no harm to remind the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Robert Howarth) of promises he entered into and which he has broken. This speech of mine might well have been made from the Opposition benches when the present Government were in opposition. What about the Prime Minister's commitment to east of Suez? He laid his hand on his heart and promised us.
Mr. Robert Howarth: It would be illuminating to read the election address of the hon. Member for Pembroke.
Mr. Donnelly: I have always been in favour of maintaining forces east of Suez. My constituency has suffered grievously from these cuts east of Suez. We have 11 per cent. unemployment and it will go up to about 15 per cent. as a result of the cuts. But I am not basing my argument purely on a constituency level. I am basing it on the case that the cuts are wrong in the national interest, and that is all that really matters. These decisions are very serious indeed and will have a long-term effect on life in this country.

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I urge hon. Members on this side, having themselves raised the matter, to study the Political Quarterly article by Mr. Donald Watt, of the London School of Economics, on the decision to withdraw from the Gulf. The article is dated July, 1968, and says:
"The opinion is that the decision to withdraw from the Persian Gulf was essentially taken for reasons which having nothing to do with real gain or loss to Britain's financial position. It was a sop to those whose main interests lay in resisting cuts to domstic social expenditure. … In the long run, the withdrawal from the Gulf may yet prove to be the most expensive decision any British Government has taken and one taken furthermore for totally irrelevant and extraneous reasons."
That sums it up pretty well.
I return to the promises. The Government promised all these things. Where are we today? We have a situation where we are without adequate defences, conventional or nuclear. We are without adequate forces of any kind.
Mr. Frank Judd: What a lot of nonsense this is.
Mr. Donnelly: It is true. Current recruiting figures are a disaster for the country, and this is because of the lack of confidence created by the Government.
Mr. Judd: The hon. Member is repeating the somewhat illogical line we have already heard in the debate. Re-engagement figures are increasing all the time. If people are re-engaging in ever-larger numbers, how can he say what he is saying of the morale of the Forces?
Mr. Donnelly: The hon. Member should ask the men of the Fleet Air Arm in my constituency about recruitment. Here we have a situation in which our defences have been considerbly run down in a short period of time. In the view of many people here and outside, the defences have been run down to danger point. That is putting it extremely conservatively. But this situation has happened in the history of great countries in the past when the central will has been lost. It happened when the Roman legions were called home 1,500 years ago. The problem then was the enemy outside the gate. The problem now is the enemy inside the gate. It is lack of will in Downing Street; it is lack of will on these benches; it is lack of will in certain editorial chairs and in broadcasting and
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television authorities which are propagators of mass media. Our defences will not be adequate until there is a new sense of will and a Government with a will.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. James Davidson: I followed the speech of the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) with great interest but found it difficult to follow his logic. I shall come to many of the points he made in my own speech, but I could not understand his views in particular about the Middle East and our withdrawal from the Persian Gulf. I spent two years in that area and know it well.
A point that is constantly overlooked by advocates of remaining in that area is that recently, during the outbreak of war between the U.A.R. and Israel, Britain had forces in the Aden area, and in the Persian Gulf, but the presence of those forces did not prevent oil supplies from being cut off. Nor did it prevent the war from breaking out. Nor did it prevent the closure of the Suez Canal. I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this point. How do those who argue that our forces should be maintained in that area believe that this will keep the oil flowing, prevent war from breaking out and keep the Suez Canal open? It has not done so in the past.
Mr. Goodhart: British forces are based as Colchester and London and, at the moment, a strike is taking place at Ford. But a strike is no reason for withdrawing British forces from England. The British forces in the Persian Gulf are there to maintain the social structure of the area and prevent revolution from breaking out. That they have done very satisfactorily indeed.
Mr. Davidson: I hope the hon. Member finds his argument satisfying, because I do not.
Mr. Donnelly: I do not wish to prolong discussion; the purpose of intervention is to elicit information. The Arab-Israeli war was a different set-up. The problem we are confronted with is that of a situation where there are internal conflicts in the Persian Gulf. If we had not been able to fly troops to Kuwait in 1961, it is more than certain that Iraqis would have grabbed the country. Withdrawal from British possessions in the Persian Gulf leaves a power

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vacuum that someone is likely to fill. Either there will be internecine struggles, which will have far-reaching effects on investments, or some other power, probably the Soviet Union, which is already thinking about it, will move in. This is the danger.
Mr. Davidson: The situation in Kuwait has altered massively over the last 10 or 20 years. Then it was a tiny State which had only just discovered oil. Now, per head of population it is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. It should be in a position to organise and pay for its own defence force. We have offered, as is mentioned in the defence statement, to help train its forces. The point has been reached, as it must always one day have been reached, when that is the answer to the argument put by the hon. Member for Pembroke.
I may be out of tune with recent speeches but I give a general welcome, with certain reservations, to the statement. The general theme bears a remarkable resemblance to the policy on defence which the Liberal Party has been putting forward for a number of years and which is contained in a booklet called, A Defence for Britain, produced not actually by the Liberal Party but by the "Unservile State Group" and written by Mr. Anthony Paice, one of the officers of the Liberal Party Research Department. It is a very readable booklet—I commend it to hon. Members—and I have a suspicion that before writing this year's Statement the Government had a glance at it.
The booklet contains the essence of the defence policy which the Liberal Party has been putting forward for a number of years and which largely coincides with the general theme of this year's Statement by the Government, but with three notable exceptions which I will make clear.
Firstly, we do not agree with the apparent philosophical acceptance of the place of nuclear weapons in a defence system. Secondly, we believe that there is still an inadequacy of conventional forces. Many hon. Members have dwelt on this point. Some support the retention of forces in the Far East, while others are opposed to it. Some put great emphasis on Europe, while others place the emphasis elsewhere. However, nearly
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all hon. Members agree that there is a lack of adequate conventional forces, and the Liberal Party adheres to this view. Thirdly, we are not satisfied with the proposed treatment of the reserves. If we support the Government in the Lobby tomorrow night, I wish to have it on record that my Liberal colleagues and I do so with these three distinct reservations.
Mr. Dalyell: The hon. Gentleman has always been frank in his views about defence. What, in his estimate, are adequate conventional forces? Time and again reference has been made to our conventional forces being inadequate. I will listen to anybody who refers to conscription and gives a figure, because that is at least an honourable point of view, whether or not I accept it. It is insufferable, however, for people to refer constantly to inadequate conventional forces without giving the figure they have in mind.
Mr. Davidson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, £370 million has already been spent on Polaris submarines, which the Liberal Party has opposed all along. In the White Paper the cost of nuclear weapons has been listed as £60 million per annum. These sums might have given B.A.O.R. more adequate armoured support. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in that area we are outnumbered three-to-one in terms of armour. The Chieftain tank is, I believe, too sophisticated. We might have been better off with a larger number of less sophisticated tanks. In the event of an armoured push, the Russians could concentrate their forces in such overwhelming power at any one point along the 450-mile front to which we must pay attention in Europe that they could break through with little difficulty. This is what I mean by inadequate forces.
It was a Conservative Government who first accepted the concept of an independent nuclear strategy for Britain, because at the time they reckoned that it permitted a scaling down of costly conventional forces. However, with the failure of Skybolt in the late 'fifties and the rundown of the V-bombers, the independent deterrent policy totally collapsed.
It was the Liberal Party which first recognised the lack of credibility of this

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so-called independent British nuclear deterrent and the fact that it had caused a major deterioration in our conventional forces resulting from over-dependence on nuclear weapons. The Secretary of State's 1966 Defence Review showed that the Labour Government had also recognised the danger of overstretch, but it was a pity that the vital decisions which were forced on the Government at that time were taken not as the result of logical thought but because of economic embarrassment.
It was clear, for example in 1967 that the Government had no intention of withdrawing from the Far East at that time, or they would not have decided to establish a network of island bases in the Indian Ocean. It was only the economic disasters of 1967 which caused them to revise their views on the Far East. As a result of that revision, they tended to let down our allies without sufficient consultation and with over-great rapidity.
This was brought home forcibly to me when I visited Singapore in an all-party delegation in 1966. There was great fear of a sudden withdrawal on our part. At that time no warning had been given of such a step being taken, but one year later the announcement was made. There was a sense of insecurity in the Forces as a result, and for a time the taxpayer had to fork out money for an abortive defence policy.
Today the picture has changed. Now, with the imperial commitments and peace-keeping pretensions having been swept away and the Government having recognised that the danger of a conflict in Europe is by no means beyond possibility, the Government have come round to the right policy of concentrating on a European rôle. This is the right policy for a country of our resources and size in the 'sixties. I am not suggesting that it would have been right for us 10, 20 or 40 years ago. But time has passed and we must cut our coat to suit the cloth.
However, we are left with nuclear forces which, in my view, are by no means credible. At any one time we might be able to deploy two nuclear submarines; presumably one will be on training duties and the other will be refitting. Between them they could
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launch 32 missiles. If we compare that with the 41 ships which the United States can deploy, with their 650 missiles, it seems hardly worth while for Britain to have any at all. In our view, we should be better off without them.
At the same time, our conventional forces appear to be inadequate.
Mr. Humphrey Atkins: Does Liberal Party policy still favour a third nuclear force based on a European alliance?
Mr. Davidson: That has never been Liberal policy, certainly not since I have been the party's spokesman on these matters. We have proposed a non-nuclear European defence community, working eventually towards a situation in which we would have a joint guarantee of European security by the two super-Powers, the United States and the Soviet Union. I believe that this is in the back of Mr. Nixon's mind in his current series of visits to Europe, culminating in a visit to the Soviet Union, as it no doubt will.
As I was saying, the Government have recognised that a European rôle is paramount and that that, if for no other reason, is why Britain must deploy its full commitment in this area to counterbalance the 325,000 West German troops in N.A.T.O. I do not know where it is the intention of the Government to make use of the 20 modern naval vessels and the R.A.F. squadrons which will be returning from the Far East. If they are to be used, I hope that the Secretary of State will consider their deployment on the Mediterranean flank of the European defence commitment because this would be a suitable use for them. These forces should be well integrated into the N.A.T.O. or CENTO forces, to avoid any possibility of their becoming involved in an outbreak of hostilities between the U.A.R. and Israel. Such an involvement would be a disaster not only in itself but if British forces became directly involved in it.
The holding operation that has taken place in the 1968 statement on defence has now been superseded by this 1969 statement which reorientates and summarises our new defence policy. With the exceptions I have mentioned, it appears to us to be a realistic assessment of what this country requires in the way of defence forces and a realisation that

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Britain's defence forces can be valuable only as a component in a collective security military alliance. If after the next General Election it should happen that the Conservatives come to power and if they persist with their announced policy of returning to deploying forces in the Far East and the Persian Gulf—[An HON. MEMBERS: "They do not mean it."]—perhaps they do not, but there is no harm in rubbing this in—it would mean an increase of at least £500 million according to the assessment by our research department. [Laughter.] I do not know why there is laughter, for the department is very good indeed.
Mr. Eric Lubbock: Have the Tories ever given figures? Do they not decline to give any figures whatever?
Mr. Davidson: My hon. Friend is quite right; they have consistently refused to give figures. They were pressed to do so, and their spokesman from the Front Bench promised to give figures, but not a single figure emanated from the Front Bench. It would mean a return to 7 or 7½ per cent. expediture from the gross national product going for defence. If that is what the Official Opposition want, and if they hope to persuade the country to accept that, they should let us know.
When I deployed one or two arguments with an Australian Member of Parliament he was very upset about the fact that we were withdrawing from the Far East. He emphasised that in two world wars Australian forces had come to our assistance. I did not deny that for a moment, for, of course, it is true and I said that I had relatives fighting with the Australian forces in the First World War, but I pointed out that that did not involve Australia in maintaining bases and arms in the North African or European theatres between the wars, nor the Australian taxpayer in putting up with a much higher level of taxation than there is in Britain to support a higher standard of living here than in Australia, but the reverse would be true today.
Although it is right that we should keep a highly mobile strategic force available for lending any assistance needed by our American-Australian led defence community in the South-East Asia area it is totally wrong that in our present circumstances we should be expected to maintain
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in that area permanent bases and forces.
What remains for the Government to do is to try to rectify this imbalance between N.A.T.O. nuclear and conventional forces. I ask the Secretary of State a couple of questions. I refer to Chapter IV and paragraphs 2 and 3 of the statement. It is said:
"As the Vulcans are released from their strategic nuclear rôle they will be transferred to the tactical rôle. They will remain committed to N.A.T.O. except for those which are to replace the Canberras in the strike rôle in support of C.E.N.T.O."
Does that mean to a tactical nuclear rôle or merely to a tactical conventional rôle? This point should be clarified. In the succeeding paragraph it is said:
"The build-up of the Polaris force is proceeding as planned."
One might ask, as planned by whom? Are we now to accept that the Labour Government and the Secretary of State for Defence have finally and irrevocably accepted the need for deployment of strategic nuclear weapons in their defence plans?
Mr. Healey: I will answer the hon. Member. On the first question the V-bomber force will be transferred to tactical rôle in support of N.A.T.O., with a dual capability. Unlike the existing Canberras, which have a primarily nuclear capability, we would plan to use them in the first instance in a conventional rôle, and only if and when a conflict became nuclear would we use them in the other rôle. This is part of the maximisation of N.A.T.O.'s conventional capability of which I spoke. On the second question, we certainly intend to maintain the Polaris force—that is to say the four-boat Polaris force.
Mr. Davidson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for those replies, which were quite direct and unequivocal. Perhaps tomorrow he might care to say whether it is the plan of the Government to continue into the next generation of nuclear weapons or whether they will allow them to die with the Polaris.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Before the hon. Member gets too enthusiastic about the Polaris programme going to plan, does he know that the missile depot at Coulport already exceeds the original £3 million estimate?
Mr. Davidson: That seems to be the pattern of most estimates, whether for a farm building or a missile base; the original estimate seems always to escalate.
I repeat a point which I made in reply to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell). The obvious long-term answer I believe to be a non-nuclear European defence community with a U.S.A.-Soviet guarantee of nuclear integrity. I do not believe that it is beyond the bounds of possibility particularly when one reads what is going on at present in escalation on the borders of the Soviet Union and China. The Russians must be looking for some kind of settlement in Europe so that they can concentrate their efforts and their attention more on the Far East and the mid-Asian area.
I ask whether the Front Bench spokesman for the Opposition would care to answer one or two points arising out of the speech made by the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon). He said that we were over-committed in N.A.T.O. and that making a flexible response a reality was necessary. I have been thinking about this. I cannot tie those two statements together. They seem to be completely in conflict. The right hon. and learned Gentleman also said that our overseas responsibilities are necessarily and inevitably worldwide. That again I cannot follow. In the light of what I said about the arguments by the Australian Member of Parliament, perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman would care to take up this point.
There was one point with which I entirely agreed. That was his advocacy of a citizens home defence force, which is something we have put forward from the Liberal bench. I entirely agree with the attitude he took on that matter. There is a real opening and a real need for a citizens defence force to deal with civil emergencies, to take over the rôle of the Territorials and to deal with a number of additional functions such as those previously dealt with by the auxiliary Fire Service, Civil Defence, the Observer Corps and so on. I do not know whether the Government are still considering the possibility of this. I should like to hear about it when the Secretary of State for Defence replies to the debate.
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We accept that in their policy for the reserves the Government's intention is to go for quality not quantity. In this they are absolutely right, but there is still a need to deal with home emergencies for which they seem to have made no provision. In this connection it is worthwhile mentioning that many young people feel the need for an outlet for voluntary service. I am opposed to conscription, but it would be a good thing for youngsters to be given an opportunity of a year's voluntary service, a wide variety of service, and this is one field in which some of them would like to give their service before going on to earn their living.
In conclusion, may I say now in the presence of the Secretary of State, as he was absent earlier when I made this remark, that, although we expect to support the Government in the Lobbies tomorrow night, we will do so with the three very distinct reservations that I have made.
8.20 p.m.
Mr. Robert Howarth: I compliment the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) on a generally very moderate and constructive speech, rather in contrast with the two speeches which preceded his, one of which unfortunately came from this side of the House—from someone who does not accept the Government Whip, anyway. I am pleased to hear that the Liberals will be supporting the Motion tomorrow night. I trust that all my hon. Friends also will appreciate the issues involved and will resist the blandishments of the Opposition.
I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) is not now with us, because I have some comments to make on his speech. This is the first major defence debate in which he has spoken, Those of us who remember the right hon. and learned Gentleman from his efforts in housing and local government know that he is very strong on destructive criticism but very weak on constructive alternatives. He did not let us down today. We might ascribe this, I suppose, to his lack of knowledge in depth of a subject to which he has only recently come, Even so, he might have done his homework a little better and tried to answer some of the many questions which have been put sincerely by hon. Members on both sides

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as to what is the Conservative Party's policy on defence. After all, if the Conservatives are claiming to be an alternative Government, people have the right to know what they would do as a Government, given the opportunity.
I noted, as did the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West, the rather strange statement, twice repeated, that we were possibly over-committed to Europe. I trust that the right hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) will, after talking to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, explain exactly what that means. What interpretation could there be but that we are over-committed in conventional forces to Europe, which is in contrast to the very strong criticism made by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean).
The other most noticeable point made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was the spurious guarantee, which we have had in the past and which will no doubt delude the Conservative Party faithfuls, that if returned to power the Conservatives would try to recover the broken promises of the Labour Government to our friends east of Suez. We shall read very carefully in HANSARD exactly what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, but I believe that it was hedged around with so many qualifications as to be meaningless. I trust that all the faithful Conservatives who go thumping the tubs at weekends will take the trouble to read the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech and be very careful in what they say, as they may be hostages to fate in the future if ever they have to deliver the goods in line with what they think their spokesman is saying at present.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: The hon. Gentleman must know that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said unequivocally in Canberra last summer that a Conservative Government will maintain a presence east of Suez. Just what the size of that presence is and what the cost of it will be will depend on how big a shambles is left behind by right hon. Members opposite.
Mr. Howarth: This is just the point I am trying to make. What do they mean by maintaining a presence? Do they mean that a frigate will be based out there? We have naval forces, anyway,
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east of Suez and presumably are likely occasionally to have naval forces cruising in that area on exercises, as we will have next year in the big Commonwealth exercise. What does that assurance mean? I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, in particular, will be careful about what he tells his old naval friends about what he thinks Conservative policy is.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: Is this the Government's policy after 1971?
Mr. Howarth: Conservative Members would do well to read very carefully the qualifications that their spokesmen make.
Since the debate 12 months ago international events have been both momentous and disturbing. One event which was hopeful was the beginning of the talks in Paris aimed at ending the war in Vietnam. Unfortunately, those talks are bogged down: there is not much sign of movement at the moment. We hope that there will be movement in time.
The events which concern us directly have been mentioned by a number of speakers. I want to comment upon the events which led up to the Russo-German invasion of Czechoslovakia in August of last year. The interesting point which some of my hon. and myopic friends seem to overlook is that German troops have been used—once—since 1945 in Europe. East German troops were used to invade Czechoslovakia.
I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) is not here. He spoke about ex-Nazi generals or ex-Nazis in positions of authority in Western Germany. I wonder whether he is seriously suggesting that all those living in Eastern Germany were in some way anti-Nazis and that all those living in Western Germany were the Nazis or pro-Nazis. It is a remarkable, tragic and ironic fact that the only use of German troops since 1945 has been by Communist East Germany to assist in the invasion of Czechoslovakia.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: If my hon. Friend had been in Czechoslovakia would he have advised military resistance to the Russian forces?
Mr. Howarth: The Czechoslovaks were so overwhelmed by superior forces that they probably would have been unwise to have attempted it. As an earlier

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speaker said, what if the Chech armed forces had had even tactical nuclear weapons targeted, say, on Moscow and other major centres in the Soviet Union? I wonder if the action that the Russians and the East Germans took would have taken the form that it did in August of last year. I have grave doubts as to whether they would have risked their cities even to, as they call it, maintain the Socialist commonwealth in Eastern Europe.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does my hon. Friend advocate that Czechoslovakia should have tactical nuclear weapons, remembering that Czechoslovakia does not want anything to do with N.A.T.O.?
Mr. Howarth: No, I am not suggesting that. I am aware of the very strong nuclear weapons that the Warsaw Pact countries have. These are a factor which we must take into account. It is regrettable, but it is a fact of life, and things are not as we might wish they were; they are as we see them at present. I hope that my hon. Friends will take that into account when deciding how to vote tomorrow night.
Continuing to deal with the Czechoslovakian situation and the lessons we should draw from it, I believe that quite clearly we cannot place much credence on the protestations of the major military Power in Europe, the Soviet Union, when, even to those whom she regards as her friends, in one week in August she professes the strongest affection for the Czech Government and their people, and the following week she invades, with other Warsaw Pact countries. This is chosen by certain of my hon. Friends as a time to suggest that we might have another attempt to talk with the present ruling group in the Kremlin, but it is a particularly ill-chosen time. That is not to say that we should not look once again to the re-establishment of confidence between the countries in Europe. But six months after what happened last August is by no means the time to start relaxing our care.
I wish to turn from the Czechoslovakian situation to talk briefly about the nature and extent of the potential military threat to Western Europe. I believe that to do so is to make an effective challenge
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to the Amendment tabled by some of my hon. Friends in a most misguided attempt to play upon the natural desire of the British people to see an improvement in all those things that the Government are trying to do in housing, education, health and the like. These, along with defence, must obviously be decided in order of priorities, and which I believe the Government have chosen wisely in the order they have decided upon.
We must remember that not only was Czechoslovakia physically invaded but serious threats were made against both Yugoslavia and Rumania. Whilst Yugoslavia threatened to resist very strongly any attempt to take away her independence, one assumes that Rumanian resistance could not really have amounted to much more than that which Czechoslovakia was able to offer. But all that happened clearly indicates the extent of the military strength of the Soviet Union in particular and certain of the East European countries, and we need to take this into account.
We must also consider the activities of the Soviet Union in the Middle East, which have led to the re-establishment of strong forces in the Arab countries, armed forces which were partially or substantially destroyed in the war in June 1967. We are presented with a situation which we would be very derelict in our duty if we ignored.
I have taken the trouble—and I hope that my hon. Friends do the same—to study the document prepared by the Institute of Strategic Studies, which gives an estimate of the present military strength of most of the countries of the world. Its estimate of Russian supplies to the Arab countries runs to about 1,500 to 2,000 tanks to three Arab countries alone—the United Arab Republic, Syria and Iraq. They include T34s, T54s and T55s. In addition, there are thousands of self-propelled guns, rocket launchers and armoured personnel carriers.
I believe that all these supplies have contributed to the instability of the area. There is no doubt that the increasing dangers we see in the Middle East are in no small way due to the supply of those tremendous amounts of equipment, which are not only for the ground and naval forces, Many hundreds of advanced combat aircraft have been supplied to the

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same Arab countries. The result is that the countries concerned, instead of being encouraged along the path of conciliation and negotiation with Israel, have been encouraged to stick to a most rigid line, which makes the possibility of a negotiated settlement between Israel and the Arab countries that much more difficult.
Mr. Allbert Booth: In view of the theory that I understand my hon. Friend to be advancing that the supply of arms to those countries increases the likelihood of war or conflict in that area, would my hon. Friend advocate that the Government put a restriction on the activities of their arms salesman so as to prevent the sale of British arms in the area?
Mr. Howarth: Yes, I would, if we could get the same understanding and agreement from the Soviet Union. This would be very nice, if we thought that the arms had been supplied. The figures are fantastic—well over 1,000 if not nearly 2,000 tanks to those three Arab countries alone and hundreds of combat aircraft, and this excludes Algeria and other Arab countries which have also received a tremendous amount of military equipment.
One might have hoped for a major agreement among Russia, America, ourselves and France to cut off supplies of arms to that unsettled area, but the attempts which have been made through the United Nations have not proceeded far. Unfortunately, the heavy supply of this equipment has compounded the problems of the Middle East. One is filled with foreboding about the outcome.
All these events mean that we should look to our own defence effort and try to assess whether it is adequate or not. This is obviously difficult. Earlier speakers—the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire in particular—have argued that we should, as our conventional forces in Western Europe were only about half of those available to the Warsaw Pact countries, try to match this. The implication was that we should double our defence effort in a European context, which is a rather startling claim.
Some of my hon. Friends have thought up a figure out of the blue and have tabled one of those Amendments which reads like, "How nice to stop beating your wife." Who can resist the blandishments of an appeal about what we
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could do with £600 million, the figure mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun). Why stop there? Why not ask, "What could you do with £2,000 million?" On this basis, why have a defence effort at all? We would put our trust in the brotherly Socialist affections of the Soviet Union, like their Czech brothers did, and hope that all will be well.
Studying the history of Europe since 1945, one sees that the events in Hungary, Germany and Czechoslovakia clearly suggest that we cannot do this and must look to our own effort, along with our allies in Western Europe, so as to be free to decide our own future in a democratic way. This is what the Government have been successfully pursuing. I admit that there have been changes of policy. Having sat through all the defence debates since 1964, I know this as well as anyone. Nevertheless, I welcome the concentration of our effort in Europe and the Mediterranean.
One hopes that the situation does not become more critical in the Middle East, as it must have a bearing upon Europe's situation, but at the same time it would be remiss of hon. Members on this side not to draw attention to the fact that, this year, a historical event takes place, when the British will spend more on education than on defence. This, apparently, does not have the approval of many hon. Gentlemen opposite, but it is a step forward, especially when spending on the whole range of social security is already 50 per cent. greater than defence spending.
These are tremendous achievements, of which the Government, and my right hon. Friend in particular, can be proud. This and the genuine efforts to improve the arrangements within N.A.T.O. for strategic purposes and the efforts to reach an arrangement to build jointly an advanced combat aircraft are to be commended. I hope that they are successful in the next few months. We see the announcement of the start of this particular project which will be a vitally required aircraft in the 1970s.
On this basis I have no hesitation in urging my hon. and right hon. Friends to give their support to the Motion on the Order Paper, and to reject the usual destructive and political Amendment that

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the Conservatives have put down. I hope we have 100 per cent. support for the Government tomorrow evening.
8.40 p.m.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: I hope the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Robert Howarth) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his argument, because I want to speak about an altogether different subject and one which has not so far been sufficiently discussed in this debate, the subject of recruiting. The recruiting figures are the country's verdict upon the defence policy of the Secretary of State. Unfortunately, the recruiting record of this Government is dreadful and is apparently getting worse. I doubt whether the country realises quite how bad it is. I want to concentrate on this aspect because I believe it is by far the most important problem facing us, for surely it is men who are the most vital factor in any defence policy.
I do not want anything I say to add to the problems of recruiting today. I have often been on record as saying there are still good careers in the Forces for young men of enterprise; and I still say that. Perhaps the Secretary of State will remember complimenting me in a previous debate on doing that very thing. Neverthless, in the White Paper there is a sad tale of recruiting shortage and, unfortunately, no concrete suggestion as to what should be done about it. I wish to suggest a few of the reasons which I believe account for the recruiting difficulties and to offer some suggestions as to what can be done about them.
No doubt there is a general lack of understanding among many sections of the public as to the need for the Services at all and for defence expenditure of any kind. A point about lack of will was made pungently by the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). I believe that for this the Secretary of State must bear a large portion of the blame, for he has talked of nothing but cuts; of cutting expenditure; of withdrawals; reductions; disbandments. So one hardly wonders why the young men are reluctant to join up.
On the wider issue of the strategy of the free world, the Government have completely ignored the problem recently
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described by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) as "creeping expansion round the flanks of the free world". What do our allies think about this? What do the Americans think? I have here a report of the Committee on the Armed Services of Congress, in Washington. A paragraph in it says:
"Behind the new Soviet sea power is an awareness that Communist domination of the globe can only be achieved by supremacy at all major points in the spectrum of conflict. The leadership of the U.S.S.R. is determined to obtain superiority over the U.S. and its allies under all combat conditions."
What do our friends and partners east of Suez think of the Labour Government's unilateral decision to withdraw? We can hear from Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, Tunku Abdul Rahman and the Gulf Rulers. I would like to pay tribute on this subject to the wisdom and statesmanship of the Governments of Australia and New Zealand.
Mr. John Gorton, the Australian Prime Minister, said recently—and this was a dig at the Secretary of State:
"We"—
that is the Australians—
"could not turn our backs on our neighbours, refuse to provide forces for their security, and wash our hands of the possible consequences to them and to ourselves."
I only wish that this Government were as robust as the Governments of Australia and New Zealand on this point.
How does this affect recruiting? The Service man understands all these things. It is the destruction of the sense of purpose brought about by twists and changes and vicissitudes of the Government's defence policy which is, more than anything else, at the root of our recruiting difficulties.
Of course a great deal has been done recently to improve the lot of the Serviceman. Both his pay and conditions of service are much better than sometimes they have been in the past. I see right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite nodding. I am not saying that pay is the principal reason for bad recruiting. Nevertheless—and I hope that the Front Bench will nod again here—recruiting could be improved by better pay. In the last resort, the Services, like all other employers, have to pay for the men they get.

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Pay outside the Services, in civilian life, has gone up so rapidly and conditions of employment have improved so much that Servicemen feel that they are underpaid. It is up to the commanding officers of units to explain the advantages of Service life, and the fact that the re-engagement figures, I am glad to say, are so much better than the recruiting figures shows that they have had a measure of success in this respect. I want to make two comparisons between Service life and civilian life. The figures in these comparisons are obtained from the Defence Estimates. I am not an expert Paymaster, and if the figures are not right or are substantially wrong I hope that the Government tonight will say what are the correct figures so that the House can judge the value of these comparisons.
Let us take the case of a captain of a B.O.A.C. V.C.10 aircraft. He is on a salary scale of something like £4,500 to £5,800 for first-class senior captains, plus allowances. Even these captains consider that they are not highly paid by international standards. A squadron leader in the R.A.F. doing exactly the same duties, flying the same aircraft on the same route to and from Singapore has total pay and allowances, according to my calculations, of £3,000. If these figures are right, then it is no wonder that the young pilots in the R.A.F., on their guest nights, sing a little ditty called, "Qantas Wantus."
Now consider an able seaman serving in a minesweeper on home seas service. He gets basically £12 a week. If he is married with two children and not living in married quarters it may go up to about £18 a week. Of course this able seaman has an interesting and exhilarating life, which he no doubt enjoys. But he must compare his weekly earnings with those of the average home trade seaman in merchant ships around the United Kingdom. His average earnings are from £23 to £25 a week, according to the latest figures.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is that not because merchant seaman are organised into a trade union? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman advocating that the Navy men should be organised into a trade union?
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: That is the very last thing I am advocating, as the hon. Gentleman well knows.
Perhaps the worst complaint about pay and allowances is the departure from the Grigg system, which at least was regular. I assure the Minister, having served under the Grigg system, that one knew that pay and allowances would be looked at regularly, which month it would be and when an announcement would be made. Reference to the Prices and Incomes Board, with reporting at irregular intervals and no clear-cut comparison, is not satisfactory for the Serviceman. Under the Grigg system, comparison with industrial averages even running in arrear, was clear-cut. Now the Services do not know where they stand. They are accustomed to a fair deal and clear-cut orders from the people with whom they work.
The third point has been mentioned only in passing, namely, over-stretch. Having been subjected to over-stretch myself in relatively recent years, I understand this matter very clearly. The figures for over-stretch were given in the Defence Review of 1966. Recently I asked that they should be brought up to date. I received a letter from the Secretary of State—I am sorry that he is not in the Chamber; perhaps he knew that I would refer to this—in which he said:
"I can assure you there are sound security reasons for withholding this information"
He went on to say that it would
"enable our potential enemies to obtain an idea of the size and availability of our fleet".
That is the most spurious argument I have ever heard, because for half a guinea members of the Soviet Embassy can buy a copy of the White Paper in which every detail of the availability of ships is spelt out in an Appendix. A list of the ships even by name, is given.
The Secretary of State ended his letter by saying that he did not refuse to answer my questions for political reasons. I beg leave to wonder. If the figures for over-stretch had improved, if they were better than the figures up to 1966, the right hon. Gentleman would have given them. If he could give favourable figures, that would help recruiting by that much. But if too few units, ships, aircraft and men are available, they are too busy and then we get the vicious circle, and men in operations like the Beira patrol, which is anathema to the men who take part in

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it, are pushed from pillar to post, to use a polite expression, and consequently their brothers and friends do not join the Services.
Fourthly, I come to some operational considerations. Despite the Secretary of State's remarks about the ability to strike the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean within minutes, which may well be true, all Service men know that his comments are not applicable concerning submarines, as the hon. Member for Pembroke vividly pointed out.
The Soviet build-up is worldwide. If aircraft are a clue to neutralising the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean, how are Russian ships elsewhere to be dealt with when, in the absence of the aircraft carriers, we do not have any fixed-wing aircraft to use? Or are the aircraft carriers to be retained? If the Minister who is to wind up could say something about the future of the aircraft carriers—and it is rumoured that the Government have had new thoughts about them—it would be extremely good news for the House, the country and particularly for young men who may be considering joining the forces.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: How are our merchant ships to be protected from attack unless we have these carriers, either in conditions of war or harassment below the level of declared war? How are we to offset the Soviet surface-to-surface missiles if the Fleet Air Arm has gone? The answer which has been given by the Minister for the Royal Navy is helicopters with small guided missiles. Perhaps the Minister who is to wind up the debate would say whether he would like to be the pilot of one of these helicopters in action. I would like him to think that out and to tell the House what he thinks he would feel like if he went up in one of these little helicopters against a ship equipped with guided missiles.
Another matter which I hope the Minister will deal with is one which I have brought up in the House before and to which I have not had even the courtesy of a satisfactory reply. This concerns the problems which arise from an incident such as the Pueblo incident. If we are to retain what the Secretary of State calls a general capability there is
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always a risk that some of our men may occasionally fall into Communist hands, and this is particular true of air crew.
A few weeks ago I wrote to The Times suggesting that the idea should be considered once again of a declaration being made by the Western Powers that when our men fell into Communist hands they should not give only their name, rank and number in future but they should be allowed to confess anything, sign anything and broadcast. This arose at the time of the Korean War over germ warfare, and many Americans were forced to sign confessions about this. Suppose they had been able to say, "Germ warfare? Certainly, buckets of it every morning before breakfast", associated with a previous announcement by the Western Powers that these confessions under duress would be utterly truthless and nonsense from the start, it might take the wind out of the Communist sails and render their propaganda exercise useless from the start.
This is a controversial matter, and I do not say that is necessarily the answer, but it is something to which the Government ought to give a proper reply. I recently asked the Minister of Defence for Administration about this. He is not a scornful chap in private, but he is apt to be when standing at the Box. He said, "It is not as easy as the hon. Gentleman thinks; we cannot bother about this." Will he please for the benefit of the House as a whole give the Government's views on this, if not now, at the earliest opportunity he is able to do so. This is the sort of thing that matters to Servicemen, particularly to air crew.
Young men nowadays look very carefully before they join the Services. Much excellent effort is put into indoctrinating them, by the cadet forces and so on, and I pay tribute to those who work with our young men on this. But boys also tend to go to their fathers and uncles and ask them what it is like to be in the Services. What advice can old Servicemen be expected to give to their sons and nephews if they, the old men, feel a grievance about the way in which they have been treated over their pensions? Perhaps a better investment than putting another £1 million into direct advertising for Services recruitment would be to bring up out-of-date pensions, so that

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those in a position to give advice to young men would be able to say—"It is all right, go on in, boy, you will have a good future."
I end as I began, by saying that there is an exciting career for any young man who is good enough, tough enough and enterprising enough to joint the ranks. Peace-keeping is perhaps the most worth while thing to do in the world today.
But our young men will not start to join the Forces again until the Government produce a defence policy which the Services believe in, and this they have not yet done.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. R.C. Mitchell: I shall be brief. Much of what I wanted to say has been said already in the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Robert Howarth).
I, too, had hoped that we should hear from the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), the latest in the long succession of Conservative Front Bench spokesmen on defence, something about the Conservatives' alternative policy. That was not to be, unfortunately. We heard nothing positive. As a result, I hope that I shall be forgiven if I do not speak to the official Opposition Amendment, because nothing that I have heard in the debate has told me what it means.
I congratulate the Government on their achievement in reducing defence expenditure while at the same time maintaining an adequate defence system for the country. There are those who want to go further and make even bigger cuts, and I shall refer in a moment to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun). It is very easy to go round the country making speeches to the effect that everything will be all right if only we cut our defence expenditure. It is a pity that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) has left the Chamber, because among those chiefly responsible for that kind of speech are the local spokesmen of the Liberal Party. It is easy to do, and, having done it, it be comes necessary to answer those who say that it is possible to make substantial reductions in our defence expenditure.
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I listened with great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East. One of his major points was that we should bring home our troops from Germany. However, he did not go on to say what exactly we should do with them having brought them home. It is fairly clear that there are two alternatives. The first is to demobilise them completely. I will not go into the economics of this and its likely effect on the labour market, but to bring home all our troops from Germany and demobilise them within a short period would mean reducing our forces to an unacceptably low level.
I hope that we have learned the lesson of the 'thirties. I have no praise for the defence policy of either political party at that time. If we reduce our defences below an acceptable level, we know the sort of thing that happened in the 'thirties, culminating in the Second World War.
The alternative to demobilising all our troops at present in Germany is to bring them home and keep them here. That might save a little in terms of exchange costs, but the effect of doing that would be to increase defence expenditure since new barracks and other facilities would have to be provided in this country.
However, my chief worry in connection with any proposal to bring our forces in Europe back to this country is that it would create a vacuum there, and something would have to fill it. I am afraid that it would be filled by West German forces. I may be accused of basing my remarks on sentiment rather than on reason, but I have bitter memories of the last World War and the history of the world which preceded it.
The very last thing that I want to see created is too strong a Germany, whether or not it has its hand on the nuclear trigger. My fears may be irrational, but they exist, and they are shared by many others in the country. There is always the danger of an extreme Right-wing take-over in Germany. The N.P.D. has had its electoral successes. If matters ever reach the stage where the new Right wing took power in Germany, my fear is that it would do a deal with the Russians and we should have August, 1939, all over again.
I can see the possibility of such a Government doing a deal with the Russians for the reunification of Germany and

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even some of the lost territory in Poland, in return for which the weapons in West Germany would face westwards rather than eastwards. With the creation of a too-strong Germany, I fear that this could happen.
Others want to economise by disbanding N.A.T.O. altogether. I agree with some of the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker). One thing that N.A.T.O. has brought us over the last 20 years is peace in Europe. The only two occasions of armed action in Europe during the last 20 years have been Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968. I believe that this is largely due to the existence of N.A.T.O.
Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Mitchell: I cannot give way. I must sit down by 10 minutes past nine.
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East on one thing. I want safety for my family and for all our families. Where I differ from my hon. Friend is that I believe that by maintaining N.A.T.O. and a strong Western defence structure we are more likely to achieve it than by his alternative of drastically reducing our forces.
I do not pretend to be an expert, but I hope that, whatever the N.A.T.O. strategy, there will be potential for going to the assistance of Yugoslavia, in particular, should she be attacked by the Soviet Union. I do not argue that it should necessarily be by sending in major forces or nuclear weapons. The Yugoslavs are expert at guerrilla warfare. I suspect that if they were attacked by the Russians, the Russians would have more on their hands than they expected. But I hope that N.A.T.O. would have a potential at least to give assistance to the Yugoslav guerrillas in such a case to enable them to carry on.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Yugoslavia does not want N.A.T.O.
Mr. Mitchell: She does not want the Russians either. We all accept that the decision by the Government to withdraw from east of Suez involved a calculated risk. I was not happy with that decision at the time, but it has been made.
I should like to comment on the argument put forward from the benches opposite that should the Conservative Party
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be returned to power our forces will go back east of Suez. I do not know what the Leader of the Opposition said in Canberra, but when I was in New Zealand recently I spoke to many people about this matter. Not one person to whom I spoke believes that if the Conservatives were returned to power British forces would go back east of Suez. The right hon. Gentleman has not convinced them. I was not in Australia, but this is true of New Zealand. People there accept that, whichever party is in power, there will be no return of British forces east of Suez.
I am worried about the situation in the Middle East. I asked a supplementary question the other day which was not entirely facetious. I asked who our friends and allies in the Middle East were. I think that this is a genuine question. I am somewhat worried about the possibility of Britain individually, or N.A.T.O. collectively, being able to take action in the Middle East in the event of a conflict escalating. I hope that either Britain individually or N.A.T.O. collectively will be in a position to take some action to stop a major escalation in the Middle East.
I strongly believe that it is the duty of whatever party is in power to provide an adequate defence system for this country. I hope that the Government will continue to view defence expenditure in cost effectiveness terms. It is important that it should not be allowed to get out of hand. I hope, in future, to see a gradual marginal reduction in defence expenditure. I believe that in present conditions we are unlikely to see a major reduction in defence expenditure. In my view, that would seriously jeopardise the defence of this country, which I am not prepared to support.
9.10 p.m.
Mr. James Ramsden: In intervening for the Opposition at this stage of our two-day debate I shall make some remarks under four main heads. I shall begin by saying something under the general heading of defence costs, and in so doing I hope to answer some of the points made by the Secretary of State in the earlier part of his speech, and later by the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Robert Howarth) and by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson), who has since left the Chamber.

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Secondly, I shall say something about recruiting, which is possibly the most serious problem confronting the Government in relation to our Defence Services, and about which the Secretary of State said only very little. Thirdly, I shall refer to the Far East which has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members, in particular by the hon. Member for Lewisharn, North (Mr. Moyle). Finally, I shall have something to say about the implications of our strategy in Europe, to which the Secretary of State devoted the greater part of his speech.
One of the effects of the recurrent Amendment which comes from hon. Gentlemen sitting on the right of the Secretary of State, pressing him for yet greater reductions in defence expenditure, is that it tempts him, in defending himself against his hon. Friends, to exaggerate very much the situation which he makes out he inherited from the out-going Conservatives on the change of Government.
The right hon. Gentleman is apt to paint a picture—and he did it again this afternoon—of a situation in which defence expenditure had got out of control, and to describe how he proceeded to redress the position. The right hon. Gentleman should not do this, because the figures do not bear out his statements. In 1962–63 the defence proportion of the g.n.p.—and I include in this the extra defence budget expenditure to which reference was made earlier—was 7·23 per cent. In 1963–64 it was 6·96 per cent. In 1964–65, the last year of the Conservative Government, it was 6·82 per cent. The figures for the first two years of the right hon. Gentleman's Administration are 6·7 per cent., and 6·82 per cent. Last year the figure was 6·97 per cent. so the House will see that under the right hon. Gentleman defence expenditure rose. In 1966–67 it was the same as in the last year of the Conservative Government, and higher than in 1967–68 that is, talking in terms of a percentage of the g.n.p.
Mr. Healey: I think that the right hon. Gentleman has been misled into quoting figures which are purely notional of what is called military defence by Treasury convention, which includes a lot of money, as was explained in an Answer recently, which is not spent in the year, nor has it anything to do with defence. If the right hon. Gentleman sticks to defence and the defence budget,
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he will see that there has been a steady decrease, and if the right hon. Gentleman reads the statement of his chief in 1964 he will see that Mr. Thorneycroft predicted a steady expenditure,
"as it is this year, not much in excess of 7 per cent. of the gross national product."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1964; Vol. 690, c. 448.]
Mr. Ramsden: I do not accept what the right hon. Gentleman said. He can check the figures, and he will have an opportunity of replying tomorrow. The figures are taken from Written Answers on 3rd December, 1965, and on 27th and 31st January, 1969. They show a declining curve in the last years of the Conservative Government, and an in crease, which admittedly is a trend which will be reversed shortly, in the first two years of the right hon. Gentleman's Administration. So he is not entitled to take the attitude which he did. Some thing else which he said, not only today but——
Mr. Hugh Fraser: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reply tomorrow on this very interesting G.N.P. point. The question of American military aircraft cancellations should surely also be brought into the calculation.
Mr. Ramsden: We shall see what the right hon. Gentleman says.
He has said in previous debates, and said again today, that he had inherited an enormously expensive defence programme from Lord Thorneycroft and succeeded in saving an amount, which used to be £1,600 million and which today was £2,000 million, of it during the five years of his administration. The right hon. Gentleman should not say that, because he is deliberately misrepresenting the process by which decisions on the level of public expenditure are taken under our system of defence administration, and he knows that as well as I do.
He knows that there are two main stages in the preparation of a defence budget. The first is the long-term costings, as the public expenditure surveys are familiarly called, which appear in the middle of the summer and which amount to an estimate of the probable future costs of all defence programmes

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then on the stocks by a particular Government—they are produced in the summer. The second stage is the effective consideration of the Estimates for the coming year. That is the stage at which decision on those programmes are taken by Ministers.
When the right hon. Gentleman refers to the long-term costings of the last year of the Conservative Government and says that they were approved, all that he can possibly mean is that they were approved as being a factually correct estimate of the content of all the possible programmes which that Administration might have undertaken had it been re turned to power—no more than that and no less. It is no help whatever to the public, who in common with the Select Committee are evidencing more and more interest in the processes of the control of public expenditure, to confuse the issue as he has done, to insist on making comparisons between what in reality are two quite unlike orders of expenditure——
Mr. Healey: What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is that the best estimate which the Conservative Government could make of the likely cost of the programmes to which they had already committed themselves—he must understand that I have seen these programmes; I inherited them when I came to office—involved an expenditure over the first five years £2,000 million in excess of what we have spent. If he is arguing that he would have cut this programme as heavily as we have done, I am entitled to ask him which of the cuts he agrees with, since he has opposed every single cut that we have made.
Mr. Ramsden: The dilemma upon which the right hon. Gentleman is seeking to impale me is totally unreal. There are many possibilities open to a Government in this situation. There is the possibility of rephasing and delaying programmes, there is the possibility of cutting—and the right hon. Gentleman has certainly done some cutting. There will be a considerable difference between his estimates this year and the long-term costings, relating to this next year's estimates, of four years ago. He has certainly done some cutting. Finally, there is the possibility, to put it no higher, that a Conservative Administration would
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have succeeded in promoting the effective growth of the G.N.P. as we did during our years of power would have been able to sustain a rate of defence expenditure higher than that planned by the right hon. Gentleman.
So the Secretary of State should not seek to confuse the issue by talking as he has done. He has made a great deal, both in the White Paper and today, of his claim to have kept next year's Estimades down to £5 million below the Estimates of the previous year. That point was dealt with effectively by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) in an extremely able speech.
The right hon. Gentleman has been unwise to give so much prominence to this figure of £5 million. Hon. Members who have studied these matters are aware that the item of pay and allowances is one of the factors which bulks largest in defence budgets. It amounts to about one-quarter of the total expenditure on defence in any year.
If one relates this sum of £5 million to pay and to what the right hon. Gentleman said about recruiting, it becomes apparent that if he had managed to get the extra 10,000 recruits—it has been admitted that the Services are that number short—in the last year, his figure of £5 million would have been £5 million in the opposite direction.
Mr. Healey Mr. Healey indicated dissent.
Mr. Ramsden: The right hon. Gentleman may disagree, but this fact emerges clearly from the Estimates. It is clear that recruits represent an expenditure of about £1,000 per year per head. It is not complicated to calculate that if the right hon. Gentleman had obtained the recruits he wanted he would not have been able to claim a shortfall of £5 million. Thus, to attach so much importance to a factor which, at best, can be fortuitous is not wise.
Mr. Healey: No doubt unwittingly, the right hon. Gentleman is misleading the House. The fact is that £1,000 per year per head is roughly the cost of a man in the Services. The cost of a recruit, who has a take-home pay of about £5 a week, must therefore be less. The right hon. Gentleman must see that.
Mr. Ramsden: I do not accept that, although I will not go into the matter now because I wish to turn to the subject of recruiting because it has not had the prominence it deserves.
It is common ground between the two sides of the House that there are, broadly speaking, two factors which induce young men to join the Services. The first is the aspect of travel, adventure, excitement and the possibility of active service. These are attractions to people who do not want to be tied to the office stool or factory bench. The second—this was adopted in principle in the determination to recruit: all-Regular Forces—is the fundamental proposition that the pay and conditions offered to Regular Servicemen must be at least as good as those offered in civilian employment. That is fundamental, and it was recognised as such by the appointment of the Grigg Committee when conscription came to an end and by the acceptance of the Grigg Report and the institution of the biennial pay review.
Despite that, what has happened of late? Last April the right hon. Gentleman threw over the Grigg system and the Government substituted for it a standing reference to the Prices and Incomes Board. As a result, the Services were awarded a 7 per cent. increase in pay last April when comparable civilian rates had already by then moved up by about 10 per cent. According to the figures I have been able to obtain, since last April the Index of Industrial Earnings has gone up by a further 4·3 per cent. The position at present, therefore, is that the Services, which are still awaiting a further report of the P.I.B., are lagging behind comparable civilian rates to the tune of about 7 per cent.
I do not believe that in that situation the right hon. Gentleman can expect to get the recruits he wants. He cannot have it both ways. He has told us that we are mistaken in maintaining that the traditions and distinction of famous regiments are a factor which attracts recruits. He has told us that men who want to join the Services do not mind to what unit they go. That cannot be the case while at the same time the right hon. Gentleman fails to study the bread-and-butter factor of recruiting and to ensure that the remuneration of the
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men he wants to attract is the same as it would be in civilian life.
The Government are greatly to blame for not having implemented their undertaking to the Services under the Grigg system. One of the big question marks which hang over the whole future of our defence policy is whether the system of Regular recruitment can recover from the blow which this breach of the Grigg principle has dealt it through the handling of right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman, in a passing reference, dismissed the Far East rather too lightly. Last week there was an important announcement of policy by Mr. Gorton, the Prime Minister of Australia. Although right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not now intend to maintain a presence in the Far East after 1971, until a short time ago they showed a deep sense of concern for the problems of that area and of its importance in the whole scheme of defence in the Western world. It seems inconsistent that they should be prepared now to dismiss the problems of that area as of no importance.
We should like to hear more tomorrow from whoever speaks for the Government about the recent statement by the Prime Minister of Australia on the intentions of Australia and New Zealand in Malaysia and Singapore. Mr. Gorton's statement was immensely helpful and constructive. It recognised that the peaceful development of that regional is an Australian interest. I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would still be prepared to recognise that it is also a British interest. The statement also recognised that:
"Just as ultimate stability depends on progress and rising standards of living, so does the possibility of progress depend on maintaining immediate stability. And provision for defence is necessary to help provide that immediate stability."
That is a statement with which I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would quarrel. It led the Prime Minister of Australia to the conclusion that they should not withdraw within the confines of their own continent but should maintain a presence in Malaysia and Singapore.
One of the difficulties about this situation in recent months has been that we have not known what the intentions of

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Australia and New Zealand were. Now we do know it would be sensible if the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friends reappraised their intentions about the Far East in the light of the Australian assessment, and especially in the light of the scale of assistance and presence which Australia and New Zealand plan to provide. I think the hon. Member for Lewisham, North was with me to this extent. They are producing some aircraft, a battalion each, and a naval unit each. I should not have thought it too difficult nor too expensive for the Government to match that contribution in an appropriate way. Indeed, I would hardly think that we could offer to do less than match it in an appropriate way in view of the obligations of honour which exist between us and Australia and New Zealand.
I agree with the Secretary of State that an unlimited commitment in this area is probably beyond our means for the future and certainly beyond the means of Australia and New Zealand and any other Power in that area without American assistance. I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the way in which the Australian commitment is limited under the statement of Mr. Gorton. Any responsibility for the maintenance of law and order in Singapore is expressly disclaimed. This is very important, because, as the Minister of Defence for Administration knows, that commitment is immensely expensive in terms of infantry battalions. What is also expressly disclaimed is any proposition that it would be possible to undertake a major campaign of the kind of size presented by the recent confrontation without the assistance of allies.
What is contemplated is assistance to the local powers against infiltration and subversion, which, as Mr. Gorton says, are the two most likely risks in the opinion of the Australian military advisers. To join those two Governments in a somewhat similar exercise and intention would be only common sense and, as I have said, not too expensive and complementary to the intention already expressed by the Secretary of State to keep touch with the Jungle Warfare School and to provide certain limited facilities for defence infrastructure for Malaysia and Singapore. I hope that the Government will give some indication that they have reappraised the situation in the
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light of what has been said, and if not, say why not and give us some clearer indication of their thinking.
I want to end by a few points on the Secretary of State's assessment of the situation in Europe. The right hon. Gentleman has described his European strategy fairly fully to us recently in his Munich speech, in an interview with Der Spiegel, and again today. His views can be summarised by saying that it is a strategy of deterrence by the threat of escalation. This is nothing new. I did not think that the Secretary of State carried great conviction when he tried to make out that there was a difference between the interpretation of this strategy under the Conservatives and what prevails now.
The salient facts are the same. The warheads for tactical nuclear weapons in Europe are in American control and custody, and they are likely to remain so. I imagine that, whatever the Secretary of State has done on the Nuclear Planning Group, the decision whether or not to use them is an American decision and will remain so.
What worries the House—not only the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker), whose speech impressed us—is the stark fact that the ability to defeat a serious Russian attack depends on somebody taking a decision to use those weapons. The full implications of this fact are not only very difficult to grasp but, speaking personally as one who was associated with a similar policy, very difficult to believe in when it comes to the point.
It must be admitted that in the light of this strategy the army we now maintain on the continent of Europe, which is the only army we have, is in a distinctly exposed situation, particularly when one reflects on what the Secretary of State said today, which I think was new. He went rather further than he has ever gone before, and made a point of telling us that nuclears could not be regarded as a kind of supercharged artillery; their use would be preceded by a period of intense fighting whilst time was given for diplomacy to be called into play, and so on. What more can we say? The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to argue that his policy of deterrence by the threat of escalation has worked. Broadly speaking, it was our policy as well. It may have worked for reasons quite independent of the nuclear balance and its attendant

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risks, but it has worked. What implications should we draw? Do we leave the matter at that? Do we run down our defence expenditure to the 5 per cent. projected by some hon. Members opposite and hope that all will be well, or do we—as we on this side of the House think we should do—make further provision for the strengthening of the conventional forces, which the right hon. Gentleman has admitted still have a rôle?
Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentleman should clear this up. His right hon. and learned Friend said that in the view of the party opposite the Government had over-committed Britain to N.A.T.O. Now the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we increase the commitment still further. Let him make clear what the policy is.
Mr. Ramsden: The right hon. Gentleman is deliberately misunderstanding my argument He has admitted more than once that conventional forces still have a rôle to play. The question I wish to put to him is whether it is in the best interests of this country and our allies, and the further efforts we wish to call upon them to make, that we should continue the rundown in our expenditure and in our forces, or whether we should make greater efforts to build them up.
I hope that whoever speaks for the Government tomorrow will not confine himself to the possible land campaign in Europe but will deal with the position at sea. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, having been very specific about our ability to dispose of the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean, will give us the same chapter and verse about the balance of forces between the West and the Soviet bloc in the Atlantic and the other areas of vital importance to our shipping. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) asked about this in a recent debate. It is time we had answers from the Government to this and the other points, that I have raised.
9.38 p.m.
The Minister of Defence for Equipment (Mr. John Morris): I have listened to most of the defence debates of the past 10 years, and I am sure that I am right in saying that so far we have had a very good debate, in which most of the views held in the House have found expression. We have had a very
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balanced and thoughtful debate, though I found difficulty at times in following the views and thoughts of the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon). However, I shall try to deal with the equipment points he raised, and my right hon. Friends tomorrow will deal with the issues of pay and recruitment.
Despite the temptation to me as Minister for Equipment, I am sure that the House will forgive me if I do not use up all of the few minutes left to me in detailing every possible equipment that the three Services have, or have somewhere in the pipeline. This temptation, to the relief of hon. Members, I will resist.
Instead, I shall seek to tell the House something of the backcloth against which our plans are concerted, some of the highlights in weapon development in each of the Services, and, lastly, a little of our techniques to further the effectiveness of our plans to provide.
The backcloth of the future is the withdrawal from east of Suez. If I emphasise the word "future", it is because my responsibilities are primarily for future provisioning.
Against the background of our concentration on our European rôle, it has been imperative for us to examine the whole range of Service equipment to see how much of it was essential. In fact, we have rarely designed a piece of equipment with a solely east of Suez rôle in mind—and our rôle in N.A.T.O., extending from the Arctic to the subtropical, has always called for a wide range of advanced equipment.
The conclusion we have come to is that, qualitatively, our new European posture will make relatively little difference to the content of our equipment programme. However, quantitatively, so far as different kinds of equipment are concerned, there will be a significant effect in the future, and it is from this reduction in quantities that we look to secure the major economies in the equipment field. I come now to some of the highlights in equipment development in each of the Services.
First, the Army. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, West (Mr. James Davidson) raised the issue of armour and the Chieftain tank. In our European rôle, one of our major requirements is to deal

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with the armoured threat that confronts us. One of the best answers to this threat is our own armour, and in our own Chieftain we have a tank second to none; all the armoured regiments in Germany will have it by next year. It has the ability to out-gun any other tank at present in North-West Europe on either side, and will be even better when, during the next few years, it is equipped with the new laser range finder, which will allow it to use the full range of its gun with even greater accuracy. The Chieftain is undoubtedly our principal antitank weapon. In addition, we have our existing ground weapons.
A significant step forward will be taken by the starting of delivery in June of this year of the new Swingfire guided weapon. Mounted on highly mobile armoured vehicles, this long-range antitank guided weapon will have a very important rôle.
Given the preponderance of Warsaw Pact armour and the advantage enjoyed by the thrust of an attacking force, mobility and flexibility of response of those defending is essential. We need air-to-surface weapons to give us the ability to react quickly to an enemy tank break-through. The R.A.F., with its ground attack aircraft, already has an effective anti-tank capability. We now plan to add to this by equipping Army helicopters with anti-tank guided weapons which can be directed to the target from the air.
Turning to the Army's own defences against air attack, we hope in the early 'seventies to have two important new weapons. In Rapier, and Blowpipe to complement it, we have what promise to be weapons of the best of their kind in the world.
There are many other pieces of equipment which the Army has just had or is on the point of receiving. The hon. and learned Gentleman took credit for the present state of equipment of the Army, and the Opposition are rightly entitled to a share of it. They made a great deal of plans and we have had to pay for them. Without sounding unduly complacent to anyone who understands the slow cycle of conception, development and production of weaponry, I think I am right in claiming both that the Army
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is at a high point in that cycle and that our future plans are geared to maintaining and improving our capabilities.
Turning now to the Royal Air Force this year we are really beginning to see the fruits of the Government's policies for the R.A.F. in the form of the introduction of several new types of combat aircraft. These policies have throughout been designed, as hon. Members will re call, to give the R.A.F. the best aircraft for the rôles which it has to fulfil, at the time they are needed, in a way which the country can afford.
The hon. Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) raised the question of the tactical Air Force and the Phantom, Harrier and Jaguar and their rôles. Large numbers of Phantoms have already been delivered, both to the Royal Air Force and to the Royal Navy. Operational training is well under way, and the crews are enthusiastic about the performance and capabilities of the aircraft.
The Phantom will be used initially in the R.A.F. as a close support aircraft to replace the Hunter, and in that connection is has a particularly good reconnaissance capability. It will be used by both the Navy and the Air Force in the maritime air defence task. Later, when the Jaguar comes in as a close support aircraft, the R.A.F. will be using the Phantom entirely as a fighter. With its ad vanced radar missile system, the Phantom will certainly be effective in that rôle. The first operational squadron will form in both the Royal Navy and the R.A.F. during the next few months. We shall be getting the first deliveries of Harriers next month, and, after training, the first operational squadron will form towards the end of the year. The Harrier will be used in the close support rôle. It will be the only V/STOL fixed wing aircraft in service in the world. Its special characteristics will enable it to be employed very much closer to our ground forces than has hitherto been possible, and will greatly increase the speed and precision of support that can be offered to them.
Such is our confidence in this aircraft that we have recently, as hon. Members know, ordered additional Harriers so that we shall be able to form a further squadron in N.A.T.O. We also have a development programme in hand which,

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in two or three years' time, will enable further improvements to be made in the performance of the Harrier, so as to increase both its range and payload. We believe that, especially in its improved form, the Harrier will have a very considerable sales potential.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the thrust of the engine is being improved, from 21,000 lbs. up to 24,000 lbs.? Is that going ahead, because obviously it will have a very much more effective payload?
Mr. Morris: As the hon. Member knows, we do not give details of specifications, ranges or capabilities. I cannot add further to what I have said. We have this development programme in hand, and we believe that the result will give us a very effective aircraft indeed.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: Although the hon. Gentleman cannot give specific details, can he say whether in principle it will be available for use at sea?
Mr. Morris: I am coming to that.
Deliveries of the Nimrod will also be beginning this year, and the first squadron will be formed early next year. It is an extremely successful and cost-effective adaptation of our civil Comet. Its speed will enable it to get to its operational area very much more quickly than present aircraft, and, once there, its very advanced, computer-based navigational and tactical system will give it an effectiveness of a quite new order.
In the strike rôle, the R.A.F. will be receiving its first Buccaneers towards the end of this year. These will come from among aircraft originally ordered for the Royal Navy, but will later be supplemented by the additional purchase which we announced last year. They will form the backbone of the R.A.F. strike reconnaissance forces, both here and in Germany, for the next few years.
All this relates to the present year. Further ahead, there is, of course, yet another equipment project which will come to fruition and make a further real contribution to the capabilities of the R.A.F. This is the Jaguar, which we are building in collaboration with the French. It has been possible, such is the versatility of the Jaguar design, to
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develop a number of variants, of which the Royal Air Force will be getting two. One will be an advanced trainer—the first such in Europe capable of supersonic speed—and in this form the Jaguar will begin to replace the Gnat in about 1973 in the R.A.F.'s flying training organisation.
The other will be a close support version, introduced at about the same date, to take over from the Phantoms, when the latter will replace the Lightnings in the air defence rôle. The development is going well, and the first flight was made last autumn. Those who have flown the aircraft, and this includes R.A.F. pilots, have been greatly impressed by its handling characteristics.
I turn now to the Navy. The major re-equipment plans for the Navy in the coming years concern the three new classes of surface ship announced in July, 1967—namely, frigates, destroyers and cruisers. The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham queried the fact that the number of ships was going down. He will be the first to agree that this is not the only factor to be considered. The age of the equipment, and the vessels and their sophistication is very much more important than sheer numbers. The frigates and destroyers are still in the planning stage, but it was a matter of some pride to me when I was able to place the first order for the Type 42 Sea Dart destroyer last November.
The significance of this new ship lies in its propulsion and weaponry. It is the first custom-built gas turbine ship ordered for the Royal Navy. Its main armament will be the Sea Dart guided missile, which has a very effective surface-to-air performance against both aircraft and ship or air-launched guided missiles. It also has a surface-to-surface capability. The order for the first Type 42 Sea Dart destroyer marks the beginning of an important new class of ships embodying all the latest weapons and equipment for the new Navy of the 1970s.
I have been asked about the submarine construction programme. Of the four Polaris submarines, three are now in service and the fourth, H.M.S. "Revenge", will be accepted towards the end of the year. Three nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarines are with the fleet, and they will be joined by a fourth, H.M.S. "Churchill", in 1970. Three

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further hunter-killers are under construction, and we hope to order an eighth submarine shortly.
The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham raised the question of our decision to concentrate future building of nuclear submarines at Vickers. This decision is an inevitable consequence of the earlier decision, announced by the Prime Minister, to reduce the rate of building of fleet submarines. It does not reflect adversely on Cammell Laird, which satisfactorily built us one of the four Polaris submarines and is currently engaged on building H.M.S. "Revenge" as well as one Fleet Submarine. The simple fact is that our future nuclear submarine building programme can provide work for only one yard, and Vickers was chosen because of its clear lead in design capability and experience.
I turn to the issue of maritime air cover raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles). As he knows, all operational aircraft of the R.A.F. are available for the support of the Fleet, but after the carriers phase out, the main types concerned will be the Buccaneers, Phantoms and Nimrods. A sizeable part of the R.A.F.'s front-line strength of Buccaneers and Phantoms will be primarily earmarked for this maritime task. Both types of aircraft can be refuelled in flight to gain extra range and endurance.
It must be borne in mind, of course, that in any future conflict involving N.A.T.O. we shall be operating as part of an alliance and that the Fleet will be able to call upon the air forces of our Allies, as well as of the R.A.F.
To complement the Buccaneers in the strike rôle, a light strike capability, directed primarily at the missile-firing F.P.B. threat, will be widely fitted in surface ships. Originally we thought in terms of a small ship-launched surface-to-surface guided weapon to counter this threat. But study showed that a more flexible and economical means of delivery would be to arm the helicopters which ships will carry for anti-submarine work with an air-to-surface missile with sufficient stand-off capability to protect the helicopter from the anti-aircraft defence of the F.P.B. Anti-submarine helicopters carried in ships will, therefore, be
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armed with the AS.12 missile, which outranges the present anti-aircraft armament of the Soviet F.P.B.s.
The question has been asked from time to time and today whether we plan to equip the Navy with V/STOL aircraft, and, if so, whether these aircraft will be operating from new "flat tops" or from the existing aircraft carriers, "Eagle" "Ark Royal" and "Hermes", when their present fixed-wing flying task is completed.
The Navy has, of course, had large numbers of its own V/TOL aircraft, the helicopter. Although we are continuing to enlarge the fleet's rotary wing capabilities, we are by no means neglecting the possibility that the future of V/STOL at sea may belong not only to the helicopters but also to the Harrier and its successors. When the Harrier was first coming into service, it did not make sense to think in terms of flying it off ships, quite simply because its performance did not give it an adequate range and pay-load. However, as hon. Members will have noticed from the Statement on Defence Estimates, we have now decided to up-rate the Pegasus engine. This will mean a great increase in its range and payload and makes it sensible to look at the option of the R.A.F. flying the V/STOL aircraft from ships as well as from land bases.
We intend, therefore, to evaluate each new development within the V/STOL concept as it occurs, and design studies for the new ships will, as a matter of course, take account of developments which may occur in aircraft as in other weapons systems during the life of the ships. But before deciding whether or not it would be worth while deploying V/STOL aircraft at sea, we would, of course, have to consider the cost and the operational effectiveness of aircraft operating at sea in this mode and take full account of the defence, strike and reconnaissance support which shore-based aircraft will provide.
As regards aircraft carriers, all I would wish to say is that the option of deploying V/STOL aircraft at sea will in no way alter the decision that has already been taken to phase out the aircraft carriers from their present fixed-wing flying task as soon as the military withdrawals from the Far East and the

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Persian Gulf has been completed in 1971. No decision has been taken about the future of these ships after that date.
As regards our management techniques, to ensure that we are able to produce the kind of equipment we want, we have, first, strengthened the procedure for examining and reviewing requirements. Secondly, proposals for development come under the most stringent examination by the Weapons Development Committee. At the same time, with industry, we are doing all we can to achieve better management of projects once they are under way. In suitable cases we appoint project officers, and we aim for incentive contracts, and in this way try to limit our liabilities.
As regards the production facilities which we run ourselves, the Government have recently set up a committee under Sir John Mallabar to see whether, and if so how, the efficiency of our large-scale establishments, including R.O.F.s and Naval Dockyards, can be increased. The emphasis throughout is on better information, better management and greater efficiency to give better value for money.
On the issue of collaboration which has been raised, one effect of cutting down research is increased dependence on others. This may in some cases make sense. One cannot in a field of enormous and increasing costs go it alone on everything. It is sensible sometimes to buy off the shelf, but it requires a nice judgment when to do this, bearing in mind that it results in the expenditure of foreign exchange and the loss of the technological benefits of the research involved.
The other alternative is collaboration. It would be a mistake to think that collaboration is always an easy way to cut costs. Many conflicting interests have to be reconciled before a joint project can get under way. The Jaguar, of course, has been very successful.
Hon. Members will know that we have for some considerable time been engaged in discussions with Germany, Holland and Italy, designed to lead to a collaborative project for an advanced combat aircraft capable of filling several rôles. Such
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a project, with four countries participating, would be something very much bigger than any collaborative venture that we have so far tackled. Its industrial and technological implications are very considerable, as indeed would be its political importance as a practical demonstration of European co-operation. I will not pretend that it has been easy to agree on operational requirements. There are a number of very good reasons why this should be so. But, in the course of these discussions, the prospect has begun to emerge of a basic design which, while maintaining a high degree of commonality, could be varied to meeting the requirements of all the partners.
It has been necessary to test this concept by more detailed feasibility studies, and this is what a joint industrial company, drawn from the four countries, has been doing in the last few months. The studies are not yet fully complete in all respects, and the final results are still to be evaluated by the four countries. All this work takes time, and it will be some weeks yet before we and the other countries are able to reach firm conclusions and decide whether to go on to the next stage. We very much hope that the final stages in the present discussions will set the seal on the considerable progress which has been made in past months.
My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) was very concerned on costs. The kind of bracket he mentioned refers to the cost that may be incurred by all the partners and not just our own share, which probably will not come to more than one-third of the totality of the amount involved over a period of ten years.
I have sought briefly to cover a very wide area. What has struck me in the time I have been in this office, is the commonality of the problems of producing equipment for our Forces. I commend the White Paper which my hon. Friend has introduced to the House.
It being Ten o'clock the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the Proceedings on the Motions relating to Town and Country Planning and Tribunals and Inquiries may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour during a period of one and a half hours after Ten o'clock, though opposed.—[Mr. Charles Grey.]

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING
10.1 p.m.
Mr. Graham Page: I beg to move,
That the Town and Country Planning Act 1968 (Commencement No 1) Order 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1908), dated 29th November 1968, be withdrawn.
Mr. Speaker: Unless I hear any objection, I think that it would be convenient for both sides of the House if, with this Motion, we discussed the other eight Motions—
That the Town and Country Planning Act 1968 (Commencement No. 2) Order 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1909), dated 29th November 1968, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning Act 1968 (Commencement No. 3) Order 1969 (S.I., 1969, No. 16), dated 7th January 1969, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning (Listed Buildings) Regulations 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1910), dated 29th November 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning (Planning Inquiry Commissions) Regulations 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1911), dated 29th November 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on 9th December, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning (Inquiries Procedure) (Amendment) Rules 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1953), dated 9th December 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on 16th December, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning Appeals (Determination by Appointed Persons) (Inquiries Procedure) Rules 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1952), dated 9th December 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on 16th December, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning (Determination of appeals by appointed persons) (Prescribed Classes) Regulations 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1972), dated 12th December 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on 17th December, be withdrawn.
That the Town and Country Planning (Tree Preservation Order) Regulations 1969 (S.I., 1969, No. 17), dated 7th January 1969, a copy of which was laid before this House on 15th January, be withdrawn.
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The alternative will be to have a rather tight debate on the first one, followed by rather narrow debates.
Mr. Page: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful for your proposal that we should discuss these nine Orders together. They are Orders made under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1968, a new Act which is not fully in operation and is coming into operation over a period of time.
The nine Orders consist of three bringing into operation parts of the Act at different dates. One Order relates to buildings of architectural and historic interest. It may be that I am old-fashioned, but I like to call them that and not the coined phrase of the Statute "listed buildings", which is a most inelegant phrase. We are discussing buildings of architectural or historic interest. There is one Order on planning inquiries, and then there is a miscellaneous one relating to inquiries generally. Two Orders relate to town planning appeals to persons appointed by the Minister to hear and decide appeals in the place of the Minister. Finally, there is an Order relating to tree preservation.
Together, the Orders would form a substantial Act of Parliament if they were embodied in a Bill. They deal with important matters. They contain details which affect the individual, in many cases quite substantially, in the ownership of and dealing with property. The Orders relating to appeals to an appointed person provide an essential part of the 1968 Act. Without these Orders, that important part of the Act could not operate. Then again, the Order relating to tree preservation rewrites a part of the 1962 Act.
Dealing first with the Commencement No. 1 Order, which is one bringing into operation certain Sections of the 1968 Act, it is in accordance with Section 105 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1968, that the Act should be brought into operation piecemeal in this way.
It is an extremely difficult type of Order to understand when one has to study carefully the Sections and even parts of Sections which are brought into operation, in some cases only in certain respects. More important than the form of the Order was the way in which the

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Order reached not only this House but the public as well.
Although the Town and Country Planning Bill, 1968, received Royal Assent on 25th October last year and became the law of the land on that date, prints of the Act were not available to the public until 21st November, 1968—a month after it became law. It is true that no part of the Act had come into operation at that time, but it is inconsiderate for those who have to study an Act of this kind that it is not printed until nearly a month after it receives Royal Assent.
We might have got over that difficulty, but then, came Statutory Instrument, 1968, No 1908, which was made on 29th November, 1968, bringing into operation 25 sections, two schedules and parts of three other schedules of the Act on 6th December, 1968. I stress that date. The Order was made on 29th November bringing this large part of the Act, in rather a complicated way, into operation a week later on 6th December. I should think that one week for studying this is all right, but that Order was not available to the public until the afternoon of 6th December, the day on which it brought that part of the Act into operation. This is not treating the public properly. It is a difficult Order to study and discover its effect. I make the strongest protest at both the House and the public being treated in this way.
By this Order offences are created. It brings into operation, for example, Section 102 which deals with offences. By this Order transactions in property are affected. It might be that by the operation of Section 39, which is brought into operation by this Order, a purchase from a local authority completed on the Friday morning, when no member of the public had read the Order, might have been in breach of Section 39. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will give not only some explanation of the delay in printing, but an undertaking that this kind of thing would not happen again.
We come now to Statutory Instrument, 1968, No. 1909, where there was the same delay, but not so serious in this case because it was bringing parts of the Act into operation on 1st January, 1969, not 6th December, 1968. But, here again, we have another complicated Order to study—not the kind of thing perhaps to
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study during the Christmas vacation—because it brings into operation part of Schedule 9, paragraph 45(b) in relation to the references to Sections 30 and 31 of the principal Act, paragraph 45(c) so far as it relates to enforcement notices under Section 44 of the Act and paragraph 45(d). As I say, this had to be studied over the Christmas vacation. I cannot see any reason why the Ministry could not have had these Orders ready at the time the Bill obtained Royal Assent.
Statutory Instrument, 1969, No. 16, deals with tree preservation orders. This was made on 7th January and brings the provisions of the Act relating to tree preservations orders into operation on 10th February, 1969—a month between when the Order was made and the time that it brings this part of the Act into operation. But the tree preservation Order, without which this part of the Act could not operate, did not appear until 17th January, three weeks before any local authority or member of the public had to operate it. Again I protest against the delay in laying these documents before Parliament and in publishing them to the public.
Now I come to the Orders which deal with the merits of the Act, and first the Order which relates to listed buildings, the buildings of architectural and historical value. As the House knows, if one wishes to demolish or to alter one of these buildings it is necessary to obtain a special form of consent. This was provided for under the 1962 Town and Country Planning Act, but it was considerably amended by the Town and Country Planning Act, 1968. In Section 40 and subsequent Sections of the 1968 Act provisions were laid down concerning listed buildings—the consent that one had to obtain before demolishing or altering them, the certificates which had to accompany applications, the forms of appeal, compensation, purchase notices, and such like matters which arose from the necessity to obtain consent.
The 1968 Act left a number of gaps to be filled by Regulation, and now we have those Regulations in Statutory Instrument No. 1910, but here again there are a number of points which I hope the Minister will be able to explain to the House. Regulation 3 provides that the

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owner of a listed building shall make his application for consent on a form
"issued by the local planning authority … and shall include the particulars required by that form to be supplied … "
The form is not described in the Order, and this is unusual in applications of this sort. Each local authority is left to decide what particulars it will demand from the applicant for consent. I should have thought that the normal thing was for the Minister to prescribe the form in this Order so that there was conformity throughout the country. Perhaps there is some good reason for leaving it to local authorities to decide what information they will demand, but I should have thought that guidance from the Minister to keep the practice uniform throughout the country would have been best.
At the end of Regulation 4, which deals with advertisements of applications for consent relating to listed buildings, there is this paragraph:
"The preceding paragraphs of this regulation shall not apply to any application for consent to carry out works affecting only the interior of a Grade II building, namely a building which when first notified to the authority by the Minister as a building of architectural or historic interest was classified as a building of Grade II and not of Grade II*."
This must be a printing error. It even has a star after the end of the second "Grade II", but no correction slip was issued to me when I obtained this copy from the Vote Office. Assuming that this is a misprint and that it was classified as a building "of Grade II and not of Grade I", which evidently is what was meant, what are these grades? They do not appear as statutory descriptions anywhere. They appear in the Order, as if everyone knows exactly what they are. One should remember that it is now a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment up to 12 months and an unlimited fine to execute works for the demolition, alteration or extension of a listed building. Therefore, one should be clear and definite in legislation and Orders like this about what is a listed building.
We have here Grade I and Grade II, and apparently, in Grade I, one must not alter the interior of the building without consent, but in Grade II one may alter it without consent. But that does not appear in the Act. This was apparently
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thought up by the Minister when making the Order.
A case has come to my notice of a person who read the Order and the Act and recollected that his own house appeared on the local land charges search made when he purchased it as being on the "supplemental list" of buildings of special architectural or historic interest. He was not certain what was meant by the supplemental list, and whether it was an official list or not. He very wisely looked up not only the Town and Country Planning Act but the Civic Amenities Act, 1967, which in Section 11 says that the Minister must keep all lists approved available for public inspection at reasonable hours and at a convenient place.
So this gentleman telephoned the Ministry to discover whether the Ministry was a convenient place and where the list was housed in the Ministry. After half an hour of his call being passed from one Department to another, no one at the Ministry knew. He recollected that, in the Encyclopaedia of Planning Law and Practice, there was mention of lists being kept at Fielden House, Little College Street, London, S.W.I, so he rang that number. After some time, he managed to get Inquiries and was told that they knew nothing about lists but would transfer him to the department which dealt with that, Special Buildings.
Someone in that department told him that there were lists and that they were at Fielden House. "Very well," said my friend, "can I see them?" "No, these are confidential lists on which we are now working so as to produce the full list." So he asked what was meant by the supplemental list: "Oh, that is Grade III". "Is Grade III an official list? Is mine a listed building? May I alter my building without consent?" "No, a Grade III building is a listed building." But later, not being satisfied with that answer, he phoned the Ministry again and eventually was told that the Grade III list was not an official list and that he would not be a criminal if he made alterations to his house.
It is not good enough that offences should be brought in depending entirely on what is included in a list. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will explain exactly what is meant by a Grade I list, a Grade II list and a Grade III list,

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where each of these lists can be discovered, and how anyone can discover whether his house is in one of those grades and is listed under the Act or this Order. Apart from those provisions in Statutory Instrument No. 1910, the Instrument seems to cover the majority of points which the Act requires to be covered but apparently there is no Instrument as yet concerning the procedure for the enforcement of notices in respect of listed buildings. Can we expect a further Instrument about that in due course?
Statutory Instrument No. 1911 relates to planning inquiry commissions which can be appointed for substantial inquiries, such as that which went into the Stansted question. The Act provides that when an inquiry commission is established, notices or advertisements about it are served. That part of the 1968 Act, which deals with planning inquiry commissions, was brought into operation on 6th December, but there was no prescribed procedure at that time for notifying the public that a planning inquiry commission had been set up.
This Instrument was made on 29th November, was laid on 9th December and came into operation on 11th December, five days after the Act had come into operation, leaving a blank from the point of view of the procedure for advertising inquiries. It is strange that the Instrument was made on 29th November, the same date as the commencement provisions for this part of the Act, yet was not laid before 9th December and did not come into operation until some days after that part of the Act had come into operation. Why was it not published when it was made? Why did we have to wait until that part of the Act came into operation before the necessary procedure was provided?
Statutory Instrument No. 1953 is a rather unintelligible hotchpotch of amendments to the 1968 Rules applying to inquiry procedure. It would have been better to have rewritten the Rules than to ask anybody who must appear at inquiries to find the cross references between this Instrument and the 1965 Rules. It makes it extremely difficult for a layman to understand the procedure and conduct his own case—and we are always encouraging laymen to appear at
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inquiries which are intended to be of an informal nature—when we produce provisions of this sort.
One must have a comprehensive range of Butterworth's Statutory Instruments on one's shelves fully to comprehend what it is all about; and Butterworth's run along a good many shelves these days. It is impossible to understand these procedures because they require so much cross-referencing. I hope that these Rules will be consolidated at the earliest possible moment.
Statutory Instrument No. 1952 deals with the inquiry procedure under which the Minister may appoint a person to undertake an appeal; and the decision of that person is the decision of the Minister. Unlike the Order I have been speaking about, this is very intelligible and pleasantly readable. It has been made after consultation with the Council on Tribunals. I draw attention to Rule 5 in paragraph 2, which deals with the information to be given to the public and to the neighbours when an inquiry is to be held in connection with an appeal before an appointed person. It provides:
"Without prejudice to the foregoing provisions of this rule, the Minister may require the local planning authority to take one or more of the following steps, namely—

(a) to publish in one or more newspapers circulating in the locality in which the land is such notices of the inquiry as he may direct;

(b) to serve notice of the inquiry in such form, and on such persons or classes of persons as he may specify;

(c) to post such notices of the inquiry as he may direct in a conspicuous place or places near to the land;".

Town planning is not, of course, a method of preserving rights which the law does not recognise, such as for example, the right to a view. To that extent one should not invite the neighbours and general public to come and protest, but nevertheless there is undoubtedly very strong feeling when an inquiry is proceeding relating to town planning that the neighbours should be informed and that they should have a chance to make representations.
The provision that the Minister may direct the service of notice of the inquiry on anyone whom he may choose is perhaps a little doubtful of the Minister's power to make himself sub-delegated powers. I do not complain about it for

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that reason, but I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to say what the Minister has in mind as the people who will be notified under that Rule because it follows up Rule 9, which deals with appeals at the inquiry, that those who have been so notified have the right to appear at the inquiry. This is the sort of thing we wanted when we discussed the Bill in Committee. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can fill in the background a little more.
Order No. 1972, relating to the prescribed classes of appeal which can be determined by a person appointed by the Minister instead of by the Minister himself, is again an Order which is not very easy to understand. It sets out in Schedule 1 those types of appeal which can be heard by the appointed person. Generally the most important I suppose is an appeal in relation to the alteration of a building or buildings for use as for not more than ten dwelling houses. We have the sort of ten dwelling house limit there for the appointed person. I do not know how that figure was chosen, nor why the appointed person was given only a small field of that sort in appeals. Generally we all approve the idea of having an appointed person to hear appeals. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will explain how these limits were reached.
There should be considerable publicity about this Schedule. It is not easy to read as it stands. It will need to be put into better language for publicity purposes, but the public deserve to be told the type of case which will be dealt with in this way.
I come to the Tree Preservation Order, No. 17 of 1969. Here we have a most extraordinary form of legislation. The 1962 Act provided that in making a tree preservation Order the Minister can rewrite certain sections of the Act, but he re-writes them by putting them in a Schedule to the Tree Preservation Order. We have before us the Regulations which set out the form of the Tree Preservation Order. In that form of the Order the 1962 Act is re-written so far as concerns Sections 21, 22, 23 and 27.
The Act empowers the Minister to do that, but it empowers him only to modify and not to re-write the Act. In modifying
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Section 27 the Minister has added another subsection. I question whether this is modifying. Subsection (5) does not appear in the Act. I am aware that the Ministry holds the view that modifying a Statute includes adding to it. This is stretching the point. I hear the Parliamentary Secretary saying that there is authority for this. I do not think it goes all the way in authorising the addition of a subsection. I hesitate to be very forceful about this, because it is a very useful subsection. However, it is a peculiar form of legislation which the House should watch and ask to be explained whenever it occurs. That is why I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to put on record the reasons for modifying the Statute to this extent.
I apologise to the House for the length of my speech on these Orders. I have not dealt with all the matters which they cover. They are as much as an Act of Parliament in themselves. I hope that the fact that we are debating them will assist the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to some extent in making the public aware of the contents of these Orders, because they are Orders with which in so many cases the layman and not necessarily the professional man has to deal. The more publicity we can give them the better it will be for the operation of these parts of the Act, on which both sides of the House agree.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. A. H. Macdonald: The House is indebted to the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) for the rather exhaustive survey—I say that in a complimentary way—he has given us of these Orders, because it enables us to comment on them. Schedule 1 of Statutory Instrument No. 1972 contains some arbitrary figures. I am interested to know what magic 2 acres have as opposed to 3 or 1½ acres and why 10 dwellinghouses as opposed to 18 or 8 are taken as the figure. In setting out categories like this, we are bound to draw arbitrary and perhaps rather indefensible lines. Did the Minister consider something slightly different when setting out the classes that the appointed person may determine?
The 1968 Act, as well as providing for the kind of Order before us, gave power permissively to local authorities to delegate decisions to their officers. I

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wonder whether it might not have been more rational to try to create some kind of linking between the two sets of delegations. If not, as in the case we are dealing with, I can see a faintly absurd situation arising. We could have a class of town planning application which the local authority deemed to be important, and therefore reserved to itself for decision, but which might well be one of the categories set out here, which the Minister presumably considers to be slightly less important and delegates to the appointed person. Such a proceeding might be undemocratic. Or we could have the situation the other way round, with the local authority delegating something because it considers it unimportant, while it is not delegated by the Minister if there should be an appeal from the decision.
After all, the local authority is on the spot. An application involving fewer than 10 dwellinghouses might seem insignificant at first sight, but it might be a test case, as sometimes happens. Developers of plots of land round about might be anxiously waiting to see whether the developer concerned succeeded in getting 10 rather than the eight that the local authority had stipulated. Therefore, something that is apparently quite trivial might turn out to be more significant. Was any thought given by the Minister to the basis of determining the classes to which I have referred?
Regulation 4(2) of the Tree Preservation Order says:
"The order shall define the position of the trees … and for that purpose shall include a map."
I see possible difficulties here. Could my hon. Friend explain how he feels that they can be acceptably resolved? I am told that when a local authority contemplates a tree preservation order it does not normally notify the owners and occupiers of the land, because there is a danger that if the owners or occupiers knew they might rush to fell the trees quickly and present the local authority with a fait accompli. The local authorities' practice seems reasonable, but if a local authority is required to draw up a map it might be necessary for its employees to enter upon the land in question, because it might not be conveniently visible from the nearest public highway. If they are to enter upon the land to
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prepare a map or plan, but are not to reveal to the owners or occupiers that a tree preservation order is contemplated, I wonder how this can be acceptably done. I cannot believe that the employees of the local authority will be encouraged to trespass on the land, but if they are not to trespass they might have to adopt a device or pretext.
Indeed, a case has been brought to my attention in which the local authority had a T.P.O. in contemplation and its employees entered upon the land. The owner's wife knew that they were there and it was with her consent that they were there. But she was not aware that they had come for the purpose of drawing a map for a T.P.O. She was allowed to be under the impression that they had come for a different purpose. Will my hon. Friend explain how this dilemma that seems apparent can be acceptably resolved?
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Arthur Skeffington): My Hon. Friend has raised a serious matter. It is suggested that the local authority's employees misled the occupier or his wife. Will my hon. Friend send me particulars of the case? I think he did send me an outline of the case in general, but I do not remember this allegation being made. This is something which the local authorities should watch very carefully.
Mr. Macdonald: I shall be glad to give my hon. Friend particulars of the case. But this was just one instance. Looking at T.P.Os., it is not clear to me how this can be resolved in future cases. No doubt there is an explanation, and I shall be glad to know what it is.
10.42 p.m.
Mr. James Allason: My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) referred to Statutory Instrument No. 1910, dealing with listed buildings, and to the confusion which has arisen over what is and what is not a listed building. In particular, referring to paragraph 4(3), he drew attention to the fact that the Minister has waived the requirement of listed building consent in cases of interiors of Grade II buildings.
This I welcome because I was chided in Committee during the proceedings on the Town and Country Planning Act for

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expressing fears that the owner of a Grade II building might be prevented from, say, installing central heating or doing some other useful work to the interior. No hint was given in Committee that there was any question of reducing what is said in the Act. The Act clearly says, in Section 40, that a listed building consent is required for any change within such a building, and defines a listed building as one that comes within the definition of Section 32 of the 1962 Act, which, in turn, states that the Minister must maintain lists of buildings. This, I understand, is in relation to Grades I and II and that Grade III consists only of provisional listings of matters of interest and not of official historical interest and, therefore, does not come within the terms of Section 40 of the 1968 Act.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will direct me to the power the Minister has to make regulations to exclude these buildings. I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to do so but I find it surprising that he is entitled to exclude a substantial part of the whole business of listed building consent. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will also tell us what is the Grade II which my hon. Friend has mentioned. I had read the Grade II as being a variety of Grade II, but he suggests that it is Grade I.
In paragraph 10 there is a useful provision intended to safeguard the position of a listed building which is in the ownership of a local planning authority. Here the intention is that listed building consents shall be given by the Minister. This is very wise, because clearly a local planning authority which has a listed building that it would like to demolish will look peculiar if it gives itself listed building consent. It is better that the Minister should intervene in this matter.
I am sure that that is the intention of paragraph 10, but there seems to be a flaw in it. It refers only to where the local planning authority has made the application. It is not only the owner of a building who can make an application for listed building consent. Paragraphs 3 and 5 make it clear that the applicant must, if he is not the owner, serve notice that he has informed the owner that he is making such an application. If a local planning authority was very anxious
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to demolishh a building in its ownership, what is to stop it granting planning consent to some other applicant, perhaps an intending developer? It would be entitled to give the consent in relation to its own building without going to the Minister. It seems that paragraph 10 is not water tight.
10.45 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Arthur Skeffington): The Hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) very rightly said that all these Orders and Regulations, if taken together, would form a substantial Act of Parliament. I agree, and I hope the House will realise that whoever has to reply to such a considerable batch of regulations has a somewhat difficult task. The hon. Gentleman made a formidable speech, dealing only with the points which interested him, and other hon. Gentlemen have done likewise. I have to deal with all of them. I hope that I shall be forgiven if I miss any. I will study the OFFICIAL REPORT and pick up any points missed and write to the hon. Members.
I begin by paying a sincere tribute to the hon. Member, not only for what he said tonight about these Orders and Regulations—and, coming from him, it was almost complimentary—but for the work in general which he does on Statutory Instruments and Regulations. I suppose that the hon. Gentleman and I could not be farther apart doctrinally—and I have no doubt that he is glad that I have put that on the record—but the degree of devotion and expert technical knowledge that he brings to the study of these matters, and the conscientious way in which he and the Committee on Statutory Instruments discharge their duties, render a very great service to the House and the public.
The hon. Member had something to say about the Commencement Orders and the fact that the first two came into effect only upon the day they were available to hon. Members and the public—6th December. I must say how sorry I am that this happened. I can assure him that it was not intended; indeed the reverse was the case on the part of the Minister and the Department.
The hon. Gentleman will recall that this legislation going through the House

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got very much behind the time schedule, simply because we were continually extending the Bill to meet important suggestions made on all sides of the House and, indeed, in another place. We tried to deal with the position of statutory undertakers in relation to bringing them into the planning procedure and by limiting compensation in certain cases, and many other matters so that, instead of the Bill being finished before the Summer Recess, it did not come back until October and, consequently, all subsequent operations were put back. The hon. Gentleman suggested that perhaps the regulations could have been drafted before the Bill received the Royal Assent, but it is difficult to do so until the Bill has gone through all its stages, and the hon. Gentleman will recall that there was one formidable stage on Report and at a very late stage when we dealt with matters coming from another place.
The result was that in the progress of the Bill, in the drafting of the regulations and in the further consultations which are customary and necessary, the time ran badly against the Department. We had hoped that the Commencement Orders would have been published on 1st December That became impossible, and we were then up against serious printing difficulties I am not blaming the Stationery Office, which was dealing with a considerable volume of legislation—the Transport Act, and the Medicine Act, which had 130 Clauses, and other measures—and there was considerable overloading. I accept the rebuke of the hon. Gentleman, and I will do all I can to ensure that this does not happen again. There was no malice behind what happened; it was a sheer combination of factors, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that.
I do not want to make excuses for what happened, but less harm may have been done than has been suggested. Most of the provisions in S.I. No. 1908 affect primarily public authorities and not individuals. Secondly, it brought into effect many relaxations which were in the interests of local authorities. For example, local planning authorities ceased to be liable, from the time the Commencement Order was made, for the payment of special compensation to statutory undertakers for adverse planning
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decisions. Treasury agreements ceased to be required in some land transactions between local authorities and Crown authorities, and Ministerial consent in certain matters was no longer required; and there were other procedures of that kind. So it may be that the disadvantages are not so great as the hon. Gentleman thought. In the main, public bodies were being freed from certain duties.
The hon. Gentleman referred to new offences. In fact, no new offences are created by the Order. Some old offences in previous legislation are dealt with, and the provision in Section 102 for dealing with offences by corporate bodies was extended. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will feel that the damage was not so great as he feared. We shall do our best to ensure that it does not happen again, but I have tried to give a full explanation which I hope he will accept.
The hon. Gentleman then dealt with the regulation concerning listed buildings. The general purpose of the new Part V of the Act has been welcomed by those who have studied the legislation here and outside. It gives much greater protection to historic buildings than before, and we hope that some incidents which resulted in notorious cases of people flagrantly disregarding the legislation because there were not sufficient penalties or supervision will no longer occur. It is the hope of all that we shall be able to preserve those buildings, of which we have such a marvellous heritage, more effectively and realistically than has been possible in the past.
The hon. Gentleman said that he does not like the expression "listed buildings". Perhaps he would prefer to call them "A. & H."—architectural and historic—but I am not sure that would be any better. This is an unromantic title, but I think the purpose is clear. On the whole, I am sure that the regulations will confer considerable benefits to the nation in terms of preservation.
Perhaps I might say a word or two about the grading. Grade I is applied only to buildings which are very exceptional. Grade II* has a special character, rather like an honours degree, second class, upper division, for buildings which are outstanding but not quite of Grade I

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quality. Then Grade II covers all other buildings which form part of the official list.
Mr. Graham Page: I am grateful for that explanation. I thought that Grade II* was a kind of brandy. In that connection, is it wrong for a Grade III building to be registered as a land charge? I have come across this in local authority registers, and I presume that such a building has been wrongly inserted in the register.
Mr. Skeffington: The hon. Gentleman can always be relied upon to bowl a few googlies or Chinamen. I am not quite sure of the answer to that one. As the hon. Gentleman knew, the Registrar has some discretion about what is registered. But Grade III is not an official listing and is outside our legislation. I think it is wrong to list it. But I should like to take further advice on the point before giving a definite answer.
The listing of buildings, which has been going on for many years with a very small and devoted staff, is virtually completed now, though it is necessary to keep these matters under review. It may be that buildings on the unofficial list, with the passage of time or perhaps the discovery of a new aspect, become listed. The lists as completed are sent by the Department to the local authorities, and owners of listed buildings are informed that their buildings are on the list.
The listing of those official classes is registered as a local land charge and, therefore, an owner should know about it, and a new owner can find out from the register. I realise that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) did not know about his porch at one time, but we were able in Committee to impart this valuable information to him. The fact that buildings are registered means that owners are aware, or certainly can be aware.
The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead asked me a point about Regulation 10 of the Listed Buildings Regulations. The answer is that before a local planning authority can grant consent it must first notify the Minister of its intention, and the Minister may call it in for his decision.
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This would include the case where the local authority can get someone else to make application for the buildings. I am glad to confirm that. The Minister has this right to call in—it is important that he should have it—in difficult or significant cases.
About Regulation 4(3): it waives the publicity requirements but it does not dispense with the need for listed building consent. This was generally agreed in the consultations that we had and seems to be satisfactory.
Incidentally, I have now received a note from my advisers saying that Grade III buildings should not be on the register of land charges. That is what I speculated. I have no doubt that by accident or by discretion or for some other reason, the Registrar has allowed it, but the buildings do not come within the category dealt with by our legislation and certainly not by the 1968 Act.
Hon. Gentlemen made interesting points about the Planning Inquiry Commission Regulations. I do not wish to argue that it is a good practice but on the whole I do not think any harm was done by the fact that the regulations came into effect a day or two after the commencement of the Planning Inquiry Commission section of the Act. The regulations apply only to actions of Ministers in referring cases to a Commission. The way Ministers do this is important and it should be laid down by statute, as should the fact that there should be proper advertisement, notice and so on. But the regulations do not, I think, disadvantage any individual. It is, of course, open to any groups or persons at any time to suggest to the Minister that particular cases should go to the P.I.C. The cases to be referred are carefully laid down by the Act, but this need not inhibit or prohibit the Minister if he wishes to appoint, outside the Planning Inquiry Commission, committees of rather wider composition than is customary. He may have an inspector sitting with an assessor, or more than one assessor, or joint inquiries. All these variations are used in cases which seem appropriate to the Minister.
While I am dealing with these No. 1911 Regulations, perhaps I might refer to the fact that some criticism has been levelled at the fact that they are not sufficiently comprehensive in that they do not cover,

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as I think the hon. Member criticised, individual bodies in this kind of case. But I remind him of the authority in Section 63 of the Act whereby the Commission is required to make direct service of the notice on the local planning authority and on the applicant, which may include an appellant, or any other person who has made representations which the local planning authority, which it would be bound to take into account if taking the decision itself. So there is direct service in this case. The Planning Inquiry Commission itself will be in direct touch also with the applicant under Section 62(6).
I think the regulations are clear. The hon. Member for Crosby felt that he fully understood them, and I share his certainty. They should prevent the kind of apprehension that he had in mind because of the strict requirements in the Act about service of notices.
There was some interesting discussion about the categories of case to be transferred to inspectors, but first I should like to make one point about publicity. The Ministry has issued a booklet about planning appeals entitled A Guide to Procedure, 1969. All appellants should get copies, and the local authorities have copies available. I do not know whether hon. Members have seen it, but it is a very good guide. In fact, a number of the points which have been raised tonight are perhaps better answered in this booklet than I shall answer them. I commend it to hon. Members who have not seen it. It is a very helpful publication.
I was asked what were the criteria on which these cases which are to be transferred to inspectors were selected. We had a fairly long discussion on this in Committee. The first basic criterion was from an analysis the Ministry made of appeal cases to find out the nature of the majority of them. Complete lists were not kept throughout the country until, I think, 1962. I remember asking a question about this when we were in Opposition. From 1962 comprehensive compilations of appeals have been kept. From a close study of these it was clear that the overwhelming number of cases were the simple ones which we have listed in the regulations and discussed in Committee. They relate to outline application cases not exceeding two acres, operations
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relating to existing housing use or proposed housing use—conversions and that kind of thing; changes of use of not more than ten houses or changes of use in other respects to not more than 10 houses. It was clear not only that these simple issues constituted the overwhelming number of appeals, but that in a very large proportion of the cases which went to appeal they were decided by the Minister precisely as the Inspector recommended. Therefore, these seem to be cases which could be taken in this final stage by an appointed person, provided he has suitable qualifications, which the Ministry ensures.
There are a number of exceptions for more difficult cases which at this stage we do not intend to transfer. However, it is thought and hoped that this procedure will permit an enormous increase in the speed with which appeals are dealt with, yet they will still be dealt with fairly, and will provide an opportunity for those who are dissatisfied with the decision at the lower level to have their say a second time and have the matter adjudicated upon by an independent person.
I should put on record some interesting figures which I hope will be of interest to hon. Members and read outside. The time taken at present to determine an appeal in these types of case now transferred, if it goes to a public inquiry, is, on average 35 weeks—a long period indeed. If it is dealt with by written representations only it still takes, on average, 29 weeks. I hesitate to say what the time will be under the new scheme. We have not yet got any information to enable us to estimate. However, from consultations that we have had with those who do this kind of work, we are sure that there will be a considerable reduction in time. It is thought that the inspector may be able to give his decision within two or three weeks of holding the inquiry, and, because of the handling of the matter locally, the inquiry should be held much earlier.
I cannot say what will be the total saving in time. It could be anything up to a couple of months. I do not want to be held to this figure, but we are optimistic, and I think everyone will agree that if we can achieve some substantial saving in time on this scale this will be in everybody's interests.

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The House may be interested to know that since 1st January notice has been given of 153 appeals to which the 1968 Act applies, and that they divide themselves so far in this way: not in the prescribed classes—that is, not to be adjudicated upon by this procedure—77; recovered by the Minister either by regulation or by specific direction—4; transferred to inspectors—72. This works out at about 47 per cent. of the cases that we have had up to 26th February. None of these transferred cases has yet been settled, but the first inquiries will take place in May. Nevertheless, this is the breakdown so far, and I am sure the House hopes that this experiment will be a success.
The Minister will transfer other cases as experience shows that they can be handled competently. We shall do this again on the basis of the analysis that we have made. I ought to have added earlier that we have had consultations not only with the inspectorate, but with local authorities and other people about the sort of cases they feel could be handled competently.
I think I am right in saying—I remember referring to this in Committee—that there has been some kind of working group within the local councils which has considered this matter.
Mr. Graham Page: The Minister gave us some interesting figures. May we get the position quite clear? As I understand it, 153 appeals have come in since 1st January. These are all kinds of appeals, and of this number as many as 72 have been found to be within this Schedule 1 description of the prescribed classes. Does that mean that there are some more of the 153 which may be transferred, or is it the case that about 50 per cent. of the appeals that come in can be transferred to an inspector?
Mr. Skeffington: It is not quite 50 per cent., according to my figures. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had spotted a mistake in my arithmetic. The 72 transferred work out at about 47 per cent., or nearly half. I think that this is encouraging.
I was asked about the regulations dealing with trees. I know that the Statutory Instruments Committee raised the
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point which the hon. Gentleman first made about whether the provision in paragraph 27(5) of the Tree Preservation Order Regulations was legally valid, because the Committee took the view that this was an extension of powers and not a modification of them. I have a copy of the Memorandum sent by the Department to the hon. Gentleman, in which the view is taken that it was within the Minister's power. The authority for that is the old case of Stevens v. The General Steam Navigation Company Limited, where the Court of Appeal ruled that although "harbour" did not appear in the Act out of which the action arose, nevertheless, by Section 38 of the Interpretation Act, 1889, where an Act passed after other Acts repeals and re-enacts with or without modification any provision of a former Act it shall be construed as references to provisions so re-enacted. So "harbour" was included. In section 27(5), extension is also covered, and the new power to suspend a planning permission is included. At any rate, I hope the Committee was satisfied that this is the interpretation which has been given in many of these cases.
It is very necessary in these regulations, to have this power in respect of trees when a revocation order is in issue. There must be a period to stop felling. If there is no power to suspend the planning permission which has been given, there is no point in the Minister having the power to intervene, because the trees would be topped or cut down. It is therefore, necessary to have this power. I do not think the hon. Gentleman objected to the power. He merely wanted to know whether it was legal. We hope that it is.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald) raised the question of maps and surveys about T.P.O.s. There are various ways in which local authorities can proceed. The large-scale Ordnance Survey maps have substantial trees already marked. Most urban authorities make a tree survey for the whole or part of their cities. The City of Liverpool is doing this for the whole city to see where it is appropriate to make tree preservation orders. In the initial stages these surveys can sometimes be carried out by amenity societies. This has been done in my village, and, I believe, in Chelmsford. It is with this

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information that, when an application comes before it, a local authority can proceed.
I have seen many of the orders, which are now running at about 1,000 a year. Some orders may comprise a large number of trees, and they must contain a map, especially when there is an appeal. Apart from the incident described by my hon Friend, I have known of no difficulty. The information must be accurate, especially in the case of Part II of the Civic Amenities Act, where one is faced with tree preservation orders which may last not only for the life of the existing tree but beyond that, after the tree is dead and has been replaced. I shall be glad to look into any further points my hon. Friend has in this matter.
The only other point is that the Act and the regulations now make it possible for local authorities to issue the T.P.O. at once where there is no objection to an order within the period. This will save a considerable time in labour, which is very much to be welcomed.
I am grateful to all those hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. If they have any points which I have not dealt with in what has been a long speech, I shall be able to write to the hon. Members concerned.
11.19 p.m.
Mr. Graham Page: I am extremely grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for the all-too-kind words he used about me at the beginning of his speech. The House is very grateful to him for the explanations he has given of these Regulations, and some interesting facts have been brought out. I accept his apologies for the delay in the publication of the statutory instruments and I hope that, having made these rather strong comments about them on this occasion, I shall have ensured that they will be taken notice of by other Departments as well as the hon. Gentleman's.
On the question of listed buildings, I hope that the Minister will issue a pamphlet of some kind explaining to the public what is meant by the different grades—Grade I, Grade II, Grade II*, and Grade III, and point out that these are dealing with listed buildings and not other commodities. I am still somewhat in the dark why there should be these different grades, and what rules apply to
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each of them. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make it clear, too.
I was sorry to hear the Parliamentary Secretary reduce the Planning Inquiry Commission to initials. We have had the Planning Inquiry Appeal—the P.I.A.; the Prices and Incomes Board—the P.I.B.; and now we have the P.I.C. I warn the hon. Gentleman not to go too far through the alphabet.
I was interested in the hon. Gentleman's figures of the planning appeals already transferred to an appointed person. We should like to watch the first batch of 72 which have been tranesferred to see how long they take to go through the mill. I hope that I shall remember to put down a Question on how the timing is going. After all, the purpose of the Act and the regulations was to speed up and streamline the procedure. We shall also like to know how progress is going on the Tree Preservation Orders, to see how efficiently they are being operated.
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's explanations. Our Motion had to be for the withdrawal of the regulations so as to get explanations and publicity, but, in those circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

LONDON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRAS (TOURS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]
11.21 p.m.
Dr. Hugh Gray: On 23rd January one of the Daily Telegraph music critics wrote in the course of a notice:
"The concert given by the Jacques Orchestra at the Queen Elizabeth Hall last night was supported by the London Orchestral Concert Board but would have been more deserving of subsidy had it been given somewhere with a less abundant musical life.
In, say, a Norfolk market town where a concert of any kind was a rarity, it could have been accepted as a meritorious and worthwhile effort, but it was not of a standard suitable for a principal London concert hall."
That is a deplorable attitude. The members of the Great Yarmouth Music Club brings as sophisticated minds to concerts as members of London

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audiences, and perhaps many of them know more.
On the other hand, I was depressed to learn that in conversation with an official of this Club a spokesman for the London Philharmonic Orchestra said that the L.P.O.
"… do not like, as a matter of policy, touring more than two or three hours out of London. The orchestra finds that, as they move further out of London, more and more principal players get deputies, so, by the time they arrive at a place like Great Yarmouth, the only part of the concert that is the London Philharmonic is the name, and if the concert is poor then the name suffers."
At least he did not share the attitude of that music critic.
I should like to bring to my right hon. Friend's notice this deplorable custom of substitution. We know that it dates from the time when musicians found it difficult to make a living, but that is no longer true. What does she think would be the reaction, for example, of a football crowd suddenly confronted with a team such as the Spurs with none of the famous players appearing but only deputies and people brought in to substitute? This is surely particularly deplorable in the case of these London-based orchestras which receive public money derived from taxpayers not only in London but throughout the country.
A rather different situation applies in the case of the B.B.C. Symphony Orchestra, in which a large number of players are under contract and must give 38 hours a week. Thus, if people hear the B.B.C. Symphony Orchestra, they hear the "first league team" and not a team of large numbers of substitutes. Something should be done about this.
I ask my right hon. Friend to look closely at the record of provincial touring by these London-based orchestras. One should not include in the figures appearances at the Edinburgh Festival or at Cheltenham or elsewhere. One should consider not the darts which they make out of London for two or three hours, as the L.P.O. spokesman said they like to do, so as to return quickly for recording sessions and other engagements the next day, but only genuine provincial touring. I also ask her to ensure that on the rare occasions when these orchestras go on such tours they do not perform the same programmes in, for example,
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Norwich and Great Yarmouth, because people in Norfolk who are starved of music naturally want to hear two concerts, not one.
In dealing with these two points of which I complain I ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that, when in the future public money is applied for, the orchestra concerned should say either to the Arts Council or to herself how much provincial touring it proposes to do in the forthcoming year. I feel that each such orchestra should do at least three weeks' genuine touring in the year. The orchestras should also deposit with the Arts Council or herself a list of the players whom they have under contract, and at least 70 per cent. of these—this is surely not a large percentage—should appear and play, so that the provinces hear these orchestras at their best, and not second or third-rate editions of them.
I do not want my right hon. Friend to think that I am in any way criticising the work done, for example, by the Eastern Authorities Orchestral Association, which works in close collaboration with the Great Yarmouth Music Club. For example, next Saturday the Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra will be playing in Yarmouth, and it will send its No. 1 team. This orchestra is used not only to foreign touring but to provincial touring, as are all orchestras which come from Iron Curtain countries.
I ask my right hon. Friend not to think that I am criticising ballet or drama companies. My comments and criticisms are reserved for London-based symphony orchestras. I know that the symphony orchestra based in Bournemouth does a great deal of touring in the area, and perhaps eventually this is a solution towards which we shall have to move—regional-based symphony orchestras throughout the country. But we have not yet arrived at that point.
I also ask my right hon. Friend to ensure in the future that when these orchestras receive public money they give value for it not only in the Metropolis but in the provincial towns, to which, if they do not choose to go, they must be forced to go, and with their best players.
I thank my right hon. Friend for what she has done for all the arts, including music, and I thank the Arts Council, too. I should also like to thank the Great

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Yarmouth Music Club, with its honorary Secretary, Mr. Aleyn R. Jordan, which does such magnificent work and shows that if one is prepared to work hard on a voluntary basis and approach orchestras, musicians and singers oneself, it is possible to provide, even in a part of the country which is called a cultural desert, entertainment that is really worth while.
11.27 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Miss Jennie Lee): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Dr. Gray) for raising this matter. It would be a complete failure on the part of the Government policy if we did not try to ensure that not only the capital city but the smaller places as well were given not only quantitative support but what my hon. Friend has stressed—qualitative support—in their love of the arts.
I am sure that everything that my hon. Friend has said will be carefully noted by the Arts Council and by our great London-based orchestras. They do a considerable amount of touring. In the current year they have given more than 100 concerts outside London; I am talking of numbers now. There were 113 concerts this year, and in the previous year the number was 109. In the year before that the number was 107. I was trying to do a quick bit of mental arithmetic when my hon. Friend said that these orchestras ought to do about three weeks' touring each year.
Dr. Gray: Each year and each orchestra.
Miss Lee: If one works it out, one sees that they are doing that, and perhaps a little more.
In addition to the four great London-based orchestras, we have five great orchestras based outside London: the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, the City of Birmingham Orchestra, the Hallé Orchestra, the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra and the Northern Sinfonia Orchestra. They, too, do their share of touring, and it is right that they should. It might interest hon. Members to know that they receive more money collectively from the Arts Council than the London-based orchestras. Of a total cash subsidy of more than £500,000 they
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receive £351,000, while the four London-based orchestras receive £212,500. Every penny of that money is well spent.
Our great orchestras must have time to make gramophone records and do broadcasting. Many people living in small communities and remote areas might never hear great music without records and radio programmes. However, we wish to do all we can to provide people with the opportunity to hear our great orchestras in person and tuned to their best. I wish to make no comment on the question of substitution, which was the major point in my hon. Friend's remarks, because I am not personally competent to say anything about the matter. However, I assure him that his words will be noted.
My hon. Friend also raised the question of diversity. Hon Members might be interested to know that there is considerable feeling about the need to be fair to our orchestras. After all, they must have time to rehearse and take part in great occasions in London as well as elsewhere. In January this year a conference of local and regional authorities met at the Arts Council to consider a report by the Regional Orchestras Advisory Committee, which had been established earlier, on the future financing of regional orchestras. The conference accepted a recommendation of the committee that a national inquiry should be put in hand into the best use and development of the country's orchestral resources. The terms of reference are under discussion, but it is likely that the inquiry will cover the future pattern of public concert-giving by all orchestras, including the four London orchestras, especially outside London. I do not wish to say anything more definite at this stage. The Arts Council does not dictate to our great orchestras, and it would be wrong if it did.
We are all concerned that the experience of very great music shall be enjoyed by as many people as possible at firsthand. For this reason we are indebted to my hon. Friend for raising this subject and for taking proper pride in the Great Yarmouth Music Club. He has every right to have such pride, particularly because of Yarmouth's great love of music and the welcome it gives to visiting orchestras. I understand that it had two visits last year. In view of the

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excellent hall that is available and the enthusiasm with which visiting orchestras are received, I hope that there will be a greater number of visits this year. That is precisely what we want to encourage. I am sure that the time my
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hon. Friend has spent in raising this matter tonight will have been well spent.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Bristol.

AGRICULTURAL SUBSIDIES AND THE COMMON MARKET
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the policy of continuing subsidies to the farming community as outlined in the Minister of Agriculture's speech on January 31 is Government policy; and, if so, whether they have informed the E.E.C. that they are not prepared to modify their policy towards the European system of import levies.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food accurately represented Government policy on agriculture support arrangements, but expressly emphasised the need to keep an open mind. The Government have made clear on numerous occasions their attitude to the adoption by the United King-
2
dom of the E.E.C. system. The second part of the Question does not therefore arise.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that in the first part of his speech the Minister of Agriculture said:
"In order that farmers get these decisions, right, it is my view that they must be told of the broad objectives of Government policy at any rate for the next four or five years."
How does he reconcile that with the question of Ministers' keeping an open mind?
LORD BESWICK: I should have thought, my Lords, that they were easily reconcilable. By adopting the kind of policy which Her Majesty's Government have adopted over the past year and dealing with each commodity as the problems arise we are keeping the farming community aware of our policy.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, would the Minister not agree with me that if the farmer must know for four or five years in advance what is going to happen to him, it is no good keeping an open mind on other possibilities?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I will give the noble Baroness the full text of the speech—
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: I have it.
LORD BESWICK:—and she will find that there is absolutely nothing in my right honourable friend's speech which is not fair to the farmer and properly

3
critical of the policy which is now being advocated by the Opposition.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, as the Government have already stated their adoption of the principle of import control for the future of eggs, would it help them to be more consistent in their actions if they stated that they were already proceeding by commodities to adopt the policy which is adopted by the E.E.C.?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord asks for consistency. I think that that is an admirable virtue, but rigidity or dogmatism are not qualities which Her Majesty's Government would like to see adopted.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGS-BRIDGE: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that a policy which is applicable to over-production can be entirely irrelevant to a commodity of which a country imports some third or half from other countries?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, my noble friend is right. I really cannot understand the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, in taking up the attitude that because something has been done in respect of eggs it must necessarily be applied over the whole field of agricultural policy. What stands out in my right honourable friend's speech is his statement that if the policy of minimum import prices were applied over the whole field of agriculture it would send up retail food prices by something between 4 per cent. and 7 per cent.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has misunderstood my question. My question was directed to trying to help the noble Lord to be consistent with the Government's policy of entering the E.E.C., so that they could claim that they have at least made a beginning in agricultural policy with eggs.
LORD BESWICK: Yes, my Lords, I accept the noble Lord's desire to be helpful. He normally is helpful. Of course, he could have gone further. Not only have we had a certain policy with regard to eggs, which has aroused the opposition of the National Farmers' Union, but we have also controls of
4
butter; we have some controls of bacon; and we dealt with these different policies in a realistic and fair way.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, would the Minister agree that it is very important that the farmers in this country and the E.E.C. in Europe should understand exactly what Her Majesty's Government's policy is, so that it does not appear to be contradictory in different speeches?
LORD HENLEY: Just let the noble Lady have the last word.

TELEVISION BROADCAST OF SOLDIERS
2.40 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the Prime Minister's recent statement in the House of Commons, they will used their influence with the Independent Television Authority to prevent the broadcasting of the play Soldiers by Rolf Hochhuth.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, the responsibility for the content of programmes rests with the Chairman and members of the Independent Television Authority; and it is not the Government's practice to intervene.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Would he not agree that the allegations made in this play are bound to cause great pain to the immediate relatives of those depicted in the play? Secondly, would he not also agree that the broadcasting of this play, as distinct from producing it in the West End, is bound to bring these allegations to the notice of a far wider public, who might not have the necessary judgment to reconcile the artistic merit and the historical inaccuracies found in the play?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I do not quite see what the noble Lord's question is to do with me. This is not a matter for the Government to rule on whether the play should be broadcast or not.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, whatever the merits of this play, will the Government please resist any suggestions that they should step into this or any other controversy of this sort which is properly within the province of the Independent Television Authority?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. They are suggestions which I am in fact trying to resist.

RHODESIA: TRIAL OF MR. SITHOLE
2.42 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will disavow the prosecution of the Rev. Ndabaninzi Sithole in Rhodesia by an illegal Government at an illegal trial and the illegal sentence passed on him of six years' hard labour.]
THE: MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government had of course no part at all in the decision to place Mr. Sithole on trial. We have no information about the facts of the case beyond what was produced in evidence. I think that it would be a mistake for me to comment on the conduct of the trial, or on the sentence passed on Mr. Sithole.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend another question? If this prosecution has been brought by an illegal Government, are not all the subsequent proceedings illegal? Further, while making no comment upon the charges against Mr. Sithole—and those of us who know him cannot believe that they are true—is it not the duty of Her Majesty's Government, before reaching any settlement with Southern Rhodesia, to insist that the leaders of the African people shall be released?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think we must face the fact, as my right honourable friend the Minister without Portfolio said in another place on October 22 last, that:
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"Britain has responsibility for Rhodesia without power inside Rhodesia."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 22/10/68, col. 1097.]
Our policy is directed towards the restitution of constitutional rule.
With regard to the first supplementary question put by my noble friend, the legislation under which Mr. Sithole has been sentenced was passed and Judge Lewis, the judge in charge of the trial, was appointed before the illegal declaration of independence. Therefore, whatever may have been the Government in Rhodesia arid its responsibilities for this charge, the trial was conducted under legislation that was passed before U.D.I.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is the Ministed saying that this was a legal trial? How is it possible to have a legal trial under the auspices of an illegal Government?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I sought to reply to my noble friend as to the source of the legislation under which Mr. Sithole was charged, and also in regard to the judge concerned. We recognise that there is an illegal régime in Rhodesia and naturally we are seeking to return Rhodesia to constitutional rule. But the question before us is really more of a legal character than of a political character, although I am bound to accept that they are both intertwined.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is not the Minister aware that the fact that the Government are not condemning this trial will have an unfortunate effect all over the world?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, before Her Majesty's Government could be called upon to condemn—and I certainly do not condone—we must have more knowledge of the background of this trial than is available at the moment. The only knowledge we have is the evidence that has been published.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is it not the fact this this illegal Government has illegally detained and imprisoned this man for many years? How cart a trial be regarded as a legal matter when it is brought by an illegal Government?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I speak subject to correction by my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, but we have not disputed the position and the standing of the courts in Rhodesia.

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This trial has been conducted under the rules of the courts of Rhodesia and we have no information other than what has been published as to the manner in which the trial was conducted.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, is there any reason to suppose that the result of this trial would not have been precisely the same if there had been a legal régime in Rhodesia?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, as I am sure the noble and learned Viscount will agree, one would be wrong to make assumptions as to what another court might decide, because in the end only the court that hears the evidence can fairly judge the case.

BRITISH RAIL AND GIRO
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will endeavour to persuade British Railways to open an account with the national Giro.]
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, the British Railways Board are continuing discussions with Giro as to what use the Board might make of Giro's services, but it is essentially a matter for the Board's own judgment what banking system they use and what arrangements they make to receive payments from their customers. I will see, however, that the attention of the Board is brought to the noble Lord's interest in this matter.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I am much obliged for that Answer.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, could the Minister say what use such an account with the Giro bank would be, in that it does not lend money and British Rail are always having to borrow?
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I think that is rather a different matter.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALD: My Lords, may I put it this way? Is it not the fact that Giro does not operate for a customer who is permanently "in the
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red"? Is not that the answer to the Question?
LORD BOWLES: No, my Lords, it is not the answer. That is why Giro is asking the British Railways Board to open an account.

NORTHERN IRELAND PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, at a convenient moment after half-past three my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on the Northern Ireland Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration.
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

STREET OFFENCES BILL [H.L.]
2.50 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I think it would be proper to start by reminding your Lordships that this is a much revised version of a Bill which came before your Lordships for Second Reading about a year ago and which was not found acceptable. It would probably be wrong to assume that your Lordships all have in mind the details of the Bill which I then brought forward. On the other hand, I think it would be equally wrong to assume that your Lordships' minds were, so to speak, a blank on this subject; and therefore I do not propose to go over too much in detail the ground which I traversed last year. In that way I hope to save a certain amount of time. On the other hand, it will be necessary to retraverse some of the ground.
Briefly, the object of the Bill is partly to remove an injustice which exists in the law as laid down in the 1959 Act

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and partly to fill in some gaps in the law which that Bill did not make any effort to tackle. It can be summarised, I think, by saying that the object of the Bill is to remove a number of discriminations which exist in the law as it stands at present—the discrimination between men and women, the discrimination between the prostitute and her customer, and the discrimination between heterosexual and homosexual conduct in relation to street offences. As it is against women that most of this discrimination exists, it is not unnatural to find that the societies which represent the interests of women in one way and another have been campaigning for a long time to get a redress of the law on this subject of street offences. In the forefront, as last year, has been the Josephine Butler Society, which has given me great assistance in connection with this Bill. But I think most, if not all, the women's organisations are very much behind the Josephine Butler Society in this matter, and in particular the Mothers' Union, which has written me a number of letters in support of this Bill.
I would mention that when the Bill was before your Lordships a year ago it gave rise in this quarter to a great deal of interest and a great deal of optimism, which, of course, was not justified in the event. That attempt last year was evidently in the minds of an important conference for the advancement of women's rights which was held last year in London in connection with Human Rights Year, which, as your Lordships will remember, was very much in the air at that time. At that conference a resolution was passed demanding equality between men and women in relation to street offences. I think these points are worth noticing as showing the great public interest which has been raised over this matter, particularly among the women's societies.
Undoubtedly, in my attempt last year to reform the law I drew the Bill too wide. The 1959 Act, may I remind your Lordships, makes it an offence for a common prostitute to loiter or solicit in a street or public place for the purpose of prostitution. That is to say, the Act applies only to common prostitutes. For practical purposes, to get a conviction it is sufficient to prove that a woman is a common prostitute and that she was
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loitering in the streets, because it will pretty well follow, as night follows day, that if this is proved and she says, "I was not looking for a customer; I was looking in a shop window", no one is going to believe her. It undoubtedly is an infraction of the general principle of British justice. A class of society should not be singled out for treatment in this way, and that is one of the discriminations that this Bill is aimed to remove.
In my earlier Bill, in order to get rid of discrimination I substituted the words "any person" for the words "common prostitute". And in order to bring the kerb crawler and other people guilty of offensive conduct of a similar type within the sanction of the law we substituted the words "immoral purposes" for "purposes of prostitution". Those proposed alternatives were very much criticised in the debate, and in retrospect I admit that they were very properly criticised, as being too wide and as subjecting perfectly respectable people who were perhaps engaged in looking into shop windows to suspicion and quite possibly to arrest by the police, thereby putting too much power into the hands of the police and constituting indeed an infraction of civil liberties.
The noble Earl, Lord Arran, who was the first to advance these criticisms, in a powerful speech, which I enjoyed, although in a way it was aimed at myself, in effect moved that the Second Reading of the Bill should be rejected by the well-known method of proposing that it should be moved again in six months' time. In the debate which followed I took the view, perhaps naturally, that those defects could be put right at the next stage—"hammered out in Committee" was the phrase I think I used—and quite a number of your Lordships took the view that that was the better course to adopt. Others, however, and indeed the majority of those who took part in the discussion, evidently thought that the defects were too serious to be got over in that way and that the better thing to do eras to hand my Bill back, so to speak, to see whether I could make it a better one. And after spending quite a bit of tine on this effort I come back to-day with what I am quite sure is a very much better Bill.
Before I leave this point I should like to say that Lord Arran himself almost

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came over to the view that the Bill could be put right in Committee, and he said that if he had not been convinced by the Minister of State, my noble friend Lord Stonham, that the Government themselves were going to introduce a Bill to deal with this problem, and to introduce it soon, he would have advised your Lordships that we should go into Committee on it. I should like to quote the actual words which I have taken from the OFFICIAL REPORT, where he said:
"I would suggest that the House should persevere with this Bill; but the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has made it unequivocally clear that something is going to be done—and soon …"—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 8/2/68, col. 1338.]
I ask your Lordships to pay attention to that, because now, more than twelve months later, nothing has been done, or, if it has, it has been so imperceptible that it has hardly caused a ripple on the surface. That is another reason why I am back to-day with the improved Bill: because I think it is time this matter was dealt with. Indeed, in view of last year's support in principle which almost every one of your Lordships who took part in the debate gave, I think I may take it that my job to-day is to persuade you that the present Bill is well enough drafted to be acceptable, at any rate for Second Reading—acceptable enough to be sent to Committee and worked on there.
I should like to say at this stage that while of course I take responsibility for the terms of the Bill, the work which has been done upon it has been that of a number of friends and colleagues and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking them for their unremitting help. I do not want to mention any names except to say that, because I think it is a good example of the sort of way in which our English system so often works, one of the outstanding critics last year were the National Council of Civil Liberties who, in effect, said that this was a Police Bill and ought to be thrown out root and stock. I challenged them to adopt a constructive attitude and help me to put a better Bill before Parliament. They responded to that challenge and they were represented on my drafting committee throughout the year by one of their members who gave us very great help, and I am very grateful for what he
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did. I mention this as being typical of a great deal that goes on in this country, where criticism becomes of a very constructive character. Nevertheless, none of us is an expert Parliamentary draftsman. That is a highly technical profession, and I have very little doubt that there are still a number of defects in the present Bill; and I expect my noble friend Lord Stonham will be pointing some of them out to me during the course of his speech.
At an early stage I sent a copy of the draft to the Home Office, and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking them for a number of suggestions in respect of the drafting. They were very acceptable and they have enabled me to improve this Bill a good deal. If there are faults, I am quite sure that the faults and defects are of a kind which can be put right in Committee, and I am hoping this afternoon to get a Second Reading so that I can have the assistance of your Lordships in putting the Bill into a fit state to go on to the Statute Book.
There is not a great deal more I want to say by way of general introduction except to make one point. One of my main objectives on the last occasion was to make kerb crawling an offence. That is still one of my main objectives to-day. I referred in some detail to this matter on the last occasion, and I pointed out that the Wolfenden Report had described kerb crawling as a nuisance. My noble friend Lord Stonham supported me in my views and said they were not in any way exaggerated; and the Home Office evidence showed that at any rate in certain cities this offence was really a menace. I then drew attention to the important case of Crook v. Edmondson, where a magistrate's court had convicted a man of an offence under Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956—he was a kerb crawler—but on a case stated the High Court decided that this section was not applicable to kerb crawling. The result was to leave kerb crawling "unhit at" as it were, by the English criminal law, and one of my main objects, as I said a moment ago, is to try to get this matter put right.
Having mentioned the Wolfenden Report and having been reinforced by the Home Office views, and having, as I thought, dotted the i's and crossed the

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t's by quoting from the address by a Liverpool magistrate and from a letter of a young woman who had written to me from London, and also mentioning that I had a good deal more evidence, I thought I had done enough. But in the debate a number of influential speakers took the view that the case in respect of kerb crawling had not been made out, and that it was not sufficiently proved that it was a serious nuisance. I must say that I was rather surprised at this, and reading over the debate during the week-end I still felt surprised and wondered whether possibly I ought to have produced more evidence.
I could go on about this matter for a long time. It is difficult to know exactly how far you should go in order to try to persuade your audience that this really is a serious business. I have had more letters from Liverpool; Manchester is obviously very bad, and it is worse in the conurbations. I have had letters from all round Manchester, from towns in Yorkshire, from Birmingham, and from Nottingham, where the Chief Constable himself has recently gone on record that it is not safe for a woman to be unescorted in the streets of that city after dark. Of course, I have also had letters from London. It is interesting that very recently a woman Member of another place was complaining that a kerb crawler has accosted her in South London. I understand that that matter has in fact been raised in the other place on several occasions and strong views have been there expressed, but so far no Government activitity has followed.
I hope that what I have said is sufficient to make it quite clear that this is quite a serious nuisance; that everybody this afternoon will agree that the nuisance is accepted as a fact, and that the problem is really to deal with it in an effective sort of way. I was reading the discussion during the week-end, and I must say that I was particularly interested in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell. I am not sure whether she is here to-day, but her speech evidently attracted a good deal of attention, because I have have received an interesting letter inviting me to bring my noble friend Lady Gaitskell up to Whalley Range, near Manchester, for an afternoon, after which, my informant said,
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"She will come back quite convinced as a result of what she will see in Whalley Range". As I say, I hope that I have said enough to satisfy your Lordships that kerb crawling is, in fact, a nuisance.
Turning to the terms of the Bill itself, the important clause, of course, is Clause 1, which it is proposed should take the place of Section l(1) of the 1959 Act. To a large extent this is based on the Report of the Macmillan Committee on Street Offences in 1928, a very valuable Report which unfortunately was not followed up in Parliament. This proposed clause is divided into two subsections, the first of which is aimed at what one might call the normal type of street prostitution. As on the last occasion, it substitutes the words "any person" far the words "common prostitute". We want to get rid of the peculiar and special position of the common prostitute. Obviously everybody who behaves in this way ought to be responsible for their activities. The activities aimed at are, as in the case of the 1959 Act, activities in a street or public place; that is to say, we are concerned with street nuisances in this Bill, just as the 1959 Act is, but nuisances of a limited type, nuisances which might be described as "prostitution nuisances". The important change is one which I think I have mentioned already, that we are substituting for the word "loitering" the words "persistently to accost". "Loitering" will disappear, and the words "persistently to accost" will take its place. We have introduced the need for persistence because it was suggested on the last occasion that to penalise what one might call a casual "pick-up" was altogether going too far, and I think there is a good deal in that argument.
I admit that the need to prove persistence throws an additional burden upon the prosecution, a greater burden than exists under the 1959 Act under which the burden of proof is as light as it can be. Under the Act the prosecution has only to prove loitering by a common prostitute and they are home. The Wolfenden Committee considered the matter in some detail and felt that what they described as "habitualness" was an aspect which was difficult to prove. They came down in favour of the easier and, as I regard it, unjust method of penalising the common prostitute.

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Their argument would suggest that they considered the matter chiefly in connection with loitering rather than in relation to soliciting. I agree that it is more difficult to prove habitualness in the case of loitering than it is in the case of soliciting. However, it is nothing like as difficult as the Committee made out. A police officer should have no particular difficulty in a proper case in satisfying a court that a case has been made out. When I was a young barrister I often attended magistrates' courts and frequently heard police evidence in this sort of case brought under the then law. The police officer described how he had watched the defendant accosting one man after another during a period of, say, twenty minutes, and the magistrate had no difficulty whatever in finding "habitualness", to quote the word used by the Wolfenden Committee.
A further point to be considered is that solicitation may be by the prostitute or by the customer. I underline this point, which is brought out by the words in the clause "with a view to offering or obtaining" since it brings about an important change in the present law. The present law penalises only the prostitute. That illustrates the glaring inequality of the Act as it stands. This inequality is one of my principal objections to the present Act and I wish to dispose of it by means of the present Bill. The 1959 Act is concerned with sexual nuisance, and we do not propose to go beyond it. We have used the expression "sexual services" rather than "sexual intercourse". The expression "sexual intercourse" is a much narrower phrase and in connection with homosexual activities might well not be a satisfactory phrase. I do not like the expression "sexual services" and I should be happy to have a better one if one can be suggested. The phrase "sexual gratification" has been suggested, but possibly it goes too wide.
I should like to deal with the question of payment or reward, which phrase appears in subsection (1A) to show that the provision is concerned with ordinary prostitution. Subsection (1B) relates to what one might describe as aggressive sexual conduct in the streets, of which kerb crawling is a good example. Some types of that activity would come within the first part of the clause. Nowadays a number of prostitutes use their cars to
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stalk their prey. Even among the male kerb crawlers are many who seek the ordinary prostitute and who are prepared to pay. The woman M.P. whom I mentioned described how the man who attempted to obtain her services thrust two crumpled pound notes into her hand, which clearly brought him within the first part of the provision. But many of these persons are not so inclined and are after a, so to speak, free evening with some woman whom they can persuade to go with them. In order to achieve that goal they are prepared to go along the street, mile after mile, accosting and upsetting all the women they can intercept.
We have tried to exclude the casual picker-up by requiring that the conduct must amount to a nuisance. No prosecution is to lie unless the person importuned, or some other person such as a resident in the street or user of the street, has found the conduct in question so much of a nuisance that he or she is prepared to give evidence about it. This is an ample safeguard, and indeed some people may think that it is more than ample. It is further tightened up by the definition of "importuning" which comes within the next clause.
The Wolfenden Committee, having decided that kerb crawling is a nuisance, then went on to say that the problem of proof was a difficult one and that they did not propose to make any recommendations about making it an offence. Again, that was rather too timorous an outlook on their part. I have no doubt that if many of the women who have written to me about this problem were to give evidence about what they have seen a court would have no hesitation in finding that an offence had been committed. It is significant that in the only case that ever came before the court, Crook v. Edmondson, the bench were of opinion on the facts that the case would be made out, if Section 32 were apposite. They had no doubt that the man in question had been guilty of going along in his car trying to get hold of a woman for sexual services. Therefore I feel that there is no difficulty about proving the matter.
Subsection (5) of Section 1 of the existing Act repealed certain sections of earlier Statutes which the Act replaced, except to take into account convictions which had been entered under them for purposes of assessing punishment. The Macmillan

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Committee of 1928 suggested that a number of local Acts of Parliament were in existence on the subject. The 1959 Act did not repeal all the local Acts relating to this matter and it seems high time, as was suggested by the Macmillan Committee, that the law should be uniform over the whole country. Therefore, we have taken the opportunity of having a general repeal clause. It may be objected that all the different local Acts ought to be set out and repealed seriatim, and I agree that that would be much the better way of doing it, but I just do not have the research facilities for finding them and it seemed to us that it could be done in this general way. If my noble friend Lord Stonham should tell me that it cannot be done in this way, then I suppose we could drop this clause, but it would be a pity.
There is one further point on this clause about which I ought to say something, although the matter is a little technical and will take a few minutes. This repeal clause is not intended to have the effect—and I do not think it has—of repealing Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956. That is the Crook v. Edmondson section, if I may call it that. Perhaps I should read it. It says:
"It is an offence persistently to solicit or importune … for immoral purposes."
I should like your Lordships to notice that this is a section in an existing Act of Parliament which is used a good deal, and there the word "persistently" is used, which the Wolfenden Committee did not think was a good word; also the words "immoral purposes" are used, which are words in my Bill to which strong objection was raised. So both those terms are in an existing Act of Parliament. It is certainly not my intention to repeal that section. I should be grateful for the Minister's opinion as to whether my repeal clause has that effect, because I hope it has not.
Perhaps I ought to say something more about Section 32, because last year there was a good deal of argument about it. On that occasion my noble friend Lord Stonham queried whether it was not an inconsistency on my part not to seek to repeal that section, because up to a point it creates a discriminating position as between men and women, if only because—as it has now been held that it applies only to men—it establishes punishment of up to two years, whereas the Street
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Offences Act 1959 provides a maximum sentence of three months' imprisonment. It is used to a certain extent against male prostitutes, although I expect your Lordships know that it was really enacted in 1898—I think this was pointed out last year—against the activities of the ordinary prostitute's bully, and I believe it is still occasionally used in that sort of way. As we have seen, the Crook v. Edmondson case decided that the section is not applicable to male importuners of women. I should have thought one could put up quite an argument that it was not applicable to male importuners of males, because the same argument could, at any rate, be advanced; but, so far as I am aware, the point has never been taken in the court.
However that may be, I see no reason why the section should be repealed, and there is at least one reason, which seems to me to be a good one, why it should not; that is, that although the prostitute's bully has rather left the centre of the stage, he is still a very real person and there are from time to time cases where he has to be dealt with. This is the section of the Sexual Offences Act under which he can be dealt with, and it ought to be kept in existence for that reason. But, apart from that, there is quite an argument for keeping it in existence for the purpose of dealing with the male prostitute. Cases of this sort vary a great deal in gravity. This we know is so over the whole range of the criminal law. For example, there can be an ordinary common assault, dealt with summarily by magistrates, and for which the punishment is light. But an assault may be quite a serious one. In that case it will be made the subject matter of an indictment and tried by a jury, and imprisonment can then be up to two years. I think it is right that the prosecuting authority should have these various possibilities open to it.
The ordinary case of homosexuality is dealt with as gross indecency to a male person. It is a summary offence and is dealt with by magistrates, and it seems to me absurd that importuning for that can be dealt with only as an indictable offence under Section 32 of the 1956 Act. Would it not be better to have a summary offence, as this Bill provides, so that when the case is an ordinary, rather trivial one it can be brought before a magistrate and dealt with there and then

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and the whole matter cleared up? I hope my noble friend Lord Stonham will tell me that my repeal clause does not have any effect on Section 32 of the 1956 Act.
Finally, by Clause 4 we repeal Section 2 of the 1959 Act. This is the section which enables a woman who has been cautioned by a police constable about her conduct to apply to a magistrate to have the caution expunged from the official records, if an official record of it has been made; or, if it has not been made, to make an order that it shall not in fact be entered on the records. With the disappearance of the old law the need for this provision, which was put in for the purpose of protecting the innocent woman who had been cautioned and wanted to have the caution removed, will disappear. In any case, it is a unique element of English criminal law which was a good deal criticised at the time, and, as I understand it, it has been practically a dead letter, so there does not seem any reason why it should be continued. However, the Home Office will have much more information about this subject than I have, and I shall be happy to act on what ever advice my noble friend Lord Stonham gives me about it.
I have attempted to go over these clauses in the Bill, and I hope I have been able to explain them to the House with reasonable lucidity. I hope that your Lordships will now feel that you can give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Chorley.)
3.27 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, many of your Lordships—perhaps most of you—will approve of the objects of this Bill, which are, first of all, as the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, said, to make the law for street offences, in so far as sexual importuning and so on is concerned, the same for women as for men. The second object of the Bill—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, would call it the primary object—is to try to do away with the practice of kerb crawling. This practice does exist and I am told it is worse in some places than in others. It must be a practice which is extremely
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frightening to most women and, if possible, it should he curbed.
I hope the noble Lord will not object if I say that although I agree with him that this is a better Bill than the last one which he introduced, it is all the same very doubtful whether it ought to have a Second Reading. I say that for two reasons. First, I believe part of it to be quite unenforceable and no prosecution would succeed; and, secondly, it is in part too widely drawn. As the noble Lord said, the whole meat of the Bill is in Clause 1, which contains two subsections with which I shall deal separately. To start with, let us see exactly what subsection (1A) says. It says:
"It shall be an offence for any person in a street or public place persistently to accost any person or persons with a view to offering or obtaining sexual services for payment or reward."
It is the words "for payment or reward" which I believe will make this part of the Bill unenforceable. I quite see why the words are in the Bill, since without them it would be drawn far too widely. There I agree. But what happens in practice? How are we going to get a conviction under this Bill? Somebody is accosted or importuned. If the person who is importuned is willing or interested, nothing further is likely to happen in so far as a prosecution is concerned. We are really dealing here with cases where the person importuned is neither willing nor interested.
My Lords, let us see what happens in practice. There are really four cases to consider. The first case is that of the female prostitute who accosts, and where she having said, "What about coming home with me, dearie?", the man is unwilling and says, "No, thank you; I am going home", or words to that effect. She then becomes persistent and says, "Be a sport", or, again, words to that effect, and he then becomes a bit more abrupt in his refusal. In practice, that is the end of it. So far no offence has been committed under this subsection because nobody has mentioned payment.
We then come to the second case—that of the male prostitute. My Lords, I am afraid I have no personal experience of being importuned by a male prostitute in this country, but any of your Lordships who have lived in the East for any length of time, as I have, will have

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had experience of it, for it is much more common there. But the same sort of language is used—the same sort of language, not the same words—and as a rule there is still at this stage no mention of payment, except that sometimes small boys offer to introduce their sisters, which happens very commonly in the Middle East. But in this country the same sort of thing as regards language, and so on, would happen with a male prostitute as would happen with a female prostitute.
We then come to the third case, which is that of the man who tries to pick up a girl and is rather pestering about it, the girl being perhaps perfectly respectable. In practice, what happens is that he stops to talk to her, and she, perhaps not knowing quite what he is saying, also stops. What does he then say? He says, "Come and have a drink", or, "Let me take you out", or something of that kind. So far, no offence has been committed under this subsection. Then we come to the fourth case, which really comes under the second subsection—the question of kerb crawling. I have no personal experience of this, I may tell your Lordships, but what I am told happens is that a man drives down a road after a girl who is walking and makes a suggestion either verbally or by sign. But he is unlikely to drive along holding a £5 note out of the window. So, normally, again, so far under this subsection there is no offence. offence.
My Lords, when does the question of "payment or reward" come in? It comes in after the person who is being importuned shows that he is interested. It is then that they start to talk about money. But that is not caught under this subsection. I suppose an offence is being committed, but it is not going to be possible to get the evidence if the man or woman, as the case may be, is willing and interested. So in my view this subsection will be quite unenforceable because of these words, "for payment or reward"; and I should not have thought they were worth trying to put on the Statute Book in this form.
We then come to the second subsection, subsection (1B), which really creates two new offences. What is said is this:
"It shall be an offence for a person in a street or public place to importune any other person so as to cause annoyance to that person …"
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That is the first part of the subsection. I may say that the definition of "importuning" in the Bill is:
"persistently for sexual purposes to molest by words, by behaviour, by any obstruction or by pestering or following, whether in a vehicle or on foot."
But this subsection refers to pestering
"any … person so as to cause annoyance in a public place".
That must be too wide. Take the case of a young man and woman who have known each other for years, or at least for some time, and who go bathing together on the seashore. During the course of the afternoon the young man makes certain propositions to the young woman, and she says, "No; shut up!". But he goes on—this is not unknown, I dare say—and she eventually gets very cross. It is possible that she may get so cross that she goes off and complains that she has been pestered. But that is not really how life works. She gets up and walks away. All the same, according to the Bill the young man will have committed an offence. However the male Members of your Lordships' House may think you have behaved in your lives, there surely must be in your recollection some moment when you have pestered a girl whom you have known quite well. My Lords, does this make sense? I suppose this is enforceable, but it is far too wide.
The second part of the subsection says:
"It shall be an offence for a person in a street or public place to importune any other person so as to cause … a nuisance to any other person who resides in or uses the street or public place."
My Lords, I am not a lawyer, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, will deal with this matter when he comes to reply, but in so far as I have been able to find out, except when it is dealt with by Statute, a nuisance is always a civil offence and not a criminal offence. If I am right, then, for the first time, by means of a Private Member's Bill a Statute is being drawn so as to make a nuisance a criminal offence. I cannot believe that that is right. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, is a very knowledgeable lawyer, and if I am wrong he will tell me I am wrong.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords I can tell the noble Lord at once. There is a criminal offence of common nuisance.
LORD DERWENT: A public nuisance, I think, is—
LORD CHORLEY: Or a public nuisance.
LORD DERWENT: That is not mentioned here. This is a plain nuisance; and I still think I may well be right. Perhaps some other noble Lord will clear up that point. My Lords, for those two reasons—that I believe the first part of Clause 1 is in fact unenforceable and that the second part of Clause 1 is far too wide and would lead to absurdities—I suggest to your Lordships that you should consider not giving the Bill a Second Reading.
3.38 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, my noble friend Lord Chorley has introduced this Bill with a balanced and persuasive speech, and the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has made a speech which by no means attacks the Bill but in which he has given reasons why he thinks it is unenforceable. I hope it will be of assistance if I intervene thus early in the debate to indicate the Government's attitude to the Bill. As I understand it, the Bill's objectives are to remove discrimination between men and women, between prostitutes and their clients, and between heterosexual and homosexual behaviour in relation to street offences. Another of the proposed effects of the Bill is to make the conduct known as "kerb crawling" an offence.
Since those proposals involve important considerations of justice and equity I should be surprised if they did not have a strong appeal, not only to women's societies but to many noble Lords. The issues involved touch on matters of social conscience about which strong opinions are held, and I should like to make clear at the outset that the Government adopt a neutral attitude to the principles of the Bill and believe it is right that your Lordships should be free to vote on the Bill, if there is a vote, as you will. I propose to comment on the proposals in turn and hope I shall not be thought unsympathetic if during that consideration I insist that we have the clear duty also to consider the practical implications involved.
The Street Offences Act 1959 was aimed at a specific problem: the presence of large numbers of prostitutes on the streets of London and other cities. There were
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those—and I was among them; and possibly in this House foremost among them—who in 1959 had grave doubts whether the Act was the right way to achieve that aim. I particularly had doubts about the use of the term "common prostitute" in Section 1 of the Act; and I still have grave doubts. Now we have to look at the position as it is today when the Street Offences Act has been in force for nearly ten years. No one could deny that in that time it has been largely successful in its aim of keeping prostitutes off the streets. Indeed, it has been more successful than many of us envisaged in 1959. I do not mean that the numbers employed in the "oldest profession" have been reduced; I do not think they have; and when we were considering the 1959 Bill no one thought that they would. But the prostitutes are plying their trade in ways which are less blatantly obvious.
Admittedly, there are still some areas where street prostitution is a problem, but we have been keeping the position under review and the general picture is that the number of prostitutes in the streets has substantially dropped since the Act came into force, and in many areas where prostitutes used to congregate in the streets they have almost totally disappeared. Nor is there any evidence that the Act, in driving prostitutes from the streets, has given rise to even more serious problems. It is true that many prostitutes have adopted other methods. There is an increased use of cars. I believe there was a sudden and remarkable increase in the demand for cars with left-hand drive soon after the 1959 Bill became an Act. There has been an increase in the use of advertisements to bring their services to the notice of clients; but it was recognised by the Wolfenden Committee that this was likely to happen, and the general feeling then was that these practices—some of which, such as advertisements, I remember referring to in a debate at that time—existed before the 1959 Act and it was thought that they would be less injurious than the presence of large numbers of prostitutes in the streets. There is no evidence that the Act has led to any large-scale underground organisation of prostitution or to an increase in the number of ponces or to other consequences so undesirable as to outweigh its advantages.

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There have, I know, been some suggestions recently that prostitutes are returning to the streets in increasing numbers and that the rate of convictions under the Act is rising. It is true that in the last year or so there have been some slight increases in the number of convictions, but these figures must be seen in the light of the situation before 1959 and against the general picture since then. There were 2,422 convictions for street offences by prostitutes in 1967—the last full year for which we have figures—but this must be set beside the figure of 19,536 for 1958 and the figure of over 10,000 convictions annually for some years previously. Since the passing of the 1959 Act there have been fluctuations in the number of convictions, as was only to be expected, but the annual average over the eight years 1960 to 1968 has been around 2,000; in other words, little more than one-tenth of what it was before. None of us would wish to see a return to the position as it was before 1959; and in considering the proposals that my noble friend has put before us, we must ask if they would be as effective as the present law in combating the nuisance at which it was aimed.
Under Section 1(1) of the Street Offences Act 1959, it is at present an offence for a common prostitute to loiter or solicit in a street or public place for the purpose of prostitution. This offence, which many of us still find the most offensive and most unjust in its terms, would disappear under the present proposals, and instead there would be two new offences, the first of which would penalise anyone, man or woman who, in a street or public place, persistently accosts any person or persons with a view to offering or obtaining sexual services for payment or reward. I am glad, incidentally, that my noble friend decided not to use the term "gratification"; because that would have been even more difficult to prove. This is a provision which, if this Bill becomes law, would normally have to be used to deal with street activities by prostitutes. I recognise that it aims to do more than this, since it is aimed at the customer as well, but the point I am making is that it is the provision on which we should have to rely to deal with the street activities of prostitutes.
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My Lords, would it be as effective as the present law? The reference to loitering in the 1959 Act is removed, find the first ingredient of the new offence is "persistently to accost". It is likely that it would be extremely difficult to prove persistence—the Wolfenden Committee thought that a formula requiring persistence to be proved would make the law unworkable against the activities of prostitutes. If the Wolfenden Committee were right, one of the main strengths of the 1959 Act would be gone. But, as Lord Derwent pointed out, this Bill would require not only persistence to be proved but also that the conduct in question was
"with a view to offering or obtaining sexual services for payment or reward".
I must agree with the noble Lard that the possibility of proving both these elements seems remote, and I have to advise the House that it is the view of the Government that if this provision were enacted it might weaken the law against street activities by prostitutes.
The second new offence created by the Bill applies to any person who, in a street or public place, importunes any other person so as to cause annoyance to that person, or a nuisance to any other person who resides in or uses the street or public place. But it is proposed that no one shall be convicted of this offence unless evidence is heard from a person importuned, or a person to whom nuisance has been caused. The term "importune" is defined in Clause 2 as meaning
"persistently for sexual purposes to molest by words, by behaviour, by any obstruction or by pestering or following, whether in a vehicle or on foot".
I do not want to delay the House this afternoon—this has never been my practice—by dealing with purely drafting points, but I think that I ought to mention that it seems to us that the drafting of the Bill is ambiguous in a number of respects. To mention just a couple of examples, first, it is not clear what is meant by "uses" the street; find although the proviso requires evidence to be given by the person importuned or caused annoyance, it does not say what the evidence is to relate to. It appeals from the Explanatory Memorandum that the intention is to require evidence of annoyance or nuisance, but the Bill itself does

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not say so and in our view it ought to be clear on this point.
It is my noble friend's intention that the second of the new offences proposed in his Bill should cover the activities of kerb crawlers, and I agree with him right away that the Bill's definition of importuning is wide enough to extend to this type of conduct. I agree with him also, and I think with all noble Lords, that we should like to put an end to this most objectionable behaviour towards decent women about which there have been a number of complaints—a comparatively small number but, unhappily, a growing number. Respectable women and girls walking along the street may find, and do find, themselves accosted by cruising motorists who are in all probability in search of prostitutes. As has been said, they may not be; and this must be a most unpleasant, indeed unnerving, experience for a woman or girl to be subjected to.
Furthermore, my Lords, there is a certain difficulty as the law stands at present—this I readily acknowledge—in catching these kerb-crawling pests. Until a few years ago we thought that they could be charged under Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 with importuning for immoral purposes, but, as my noble friend Lord Chorley pointed out, in 1966, in the case of Crook v. Edmondson the High Court decided that the words "immoral purposes" in Section 32 have a restrictive meaning and do not include soliciting by a man of a woman for purposes of having sexual intercourse with her. The result is that kerb crawlers at present cannot now be dealt with under this section, although the police are not altogether powerless in the matter. For example, in London there is an offence under Section 54(13) of the Metropolitan Police Act 1839 of using threatening, abusive or insulting words of behaviour whereby a breach of the peace may be caused. There are similar provisions in a number of local Acts in different parts of the country, and in many areas there are by-laws which cover offensive behaviour in the streets. My information is that since Crook v. Edmondson the police in some areas have found it more difficult to deal with kerb crawling, but that the problem is not altogether unmanageable.
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My Lords, the problem often lies not so much in the lack of an offence with which to charge the kerb crawler as in the difficulty of obtaining sufficient evidence to identify the men concerned. Nevertheless, accepting that there may be—indeed there are; let us be frank—deficiencies in the existing law to deal with kerb crawling, the question arises whether the proposals now before us would provide the answer. To bring a successful prosecution under the second offence proposed in my noble friend's Bill it would be necessary to prove that there was importuning; that is to say, molestation by words, behaviour, gestures, as the noble Lord said, and so on, for sexual purposes—something which, I suggest, would often be impossible to prove against a kerb crawling motorist. I am bound to say that when I was listening to my noble friend and to all the possibilities, it made me feel that in future I shall be afraid to get out of my car to ask the way. Nearly every time I get out of my car to ask my way, when I am in an area that I do not know, the first answer I get is, "I am a stranger round here." I can never seem to find anyone who knows where we are.
My Lords, it would be necessary for the person importuned or caused annoyance to give evidence against the offender, and we know, for reasons of which we are fully aware and with which we fully understand and sympathise, that persons accosted are usually unwilling to give evidence: they are not all lady Members of Parliament. It seems most unlikely, therefore, that this provision in the Bill will be of any real help in dealing with cases of kerb crawling.
Another aim of the Bill is to remove discrimination between homosexual and heterosexual behaviour in relation to street offences, and I should like briefly to examine what the Bill appears to do in this matter. Clause 2 provides that
"… sexual services shall be deemed to include heterosexual and homosexual services,"
and it would appear that accosting for homosexual purposes could be caught under the first of the new offences created at Clause 1(1A). It is not entirely clear whether homosexual conduct would be caught under the new offence at Clause 1(1B) because the definition of "importuning" in Clause 2(4B) refers to molestation for sexual purposes; and it is not clear whether this term, like the term

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"sexual services" used in Clause 1(1A) would apply to homosexual conduct. I do not know whether noble Lords followed that particular point.
My noble friend asked me whether he was right in thinking that his Bill does not repeal Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 which is the provision which at present applies to soliciting by men for homosexual purposes. My noble friend is quite right. His repeal clause does not repeal that section. Indeed my noble friend has made clear that it is not his intention to repeal it. Thus, the provision of the present Bill relating to homosexual importuning and carrying a maximum penalty for a third offence of three months' imprisonment would not be in place of, but in addition to, the existing Section 32 offence which carries the higher maximum penalty of two years' imprisonment. My noble friend obviously thinks that there would be an advantage in having an additional and less punishable offence—applicable summarily, as he said, so as to deal with the offence quickly—to deal with this type of conduct.
My Lords, does the Bill really achieve this? I have already referred to the difficulties which might be faced in proving the offences under this Bill in relation to heterosexual conduct. These difficulties would apply equally to proving offences of homosexual conduct. If homosexual importuning were to be dealt with under the new offence at Clause 1(1A) it would be necessary to prove not only that the persistent accosting was for homosexual purposes, which is all that needs to be proved under Section 32 of the 1956 Act, but also that it was for payment or reward. It is difficult to see the advantage or the logic in creating an additional, less heavily punishable, offence for which there is no real need; and since it would be more difficult to prove than the existing provision, it would be unlikely to be used by the police. Its effect would merely be to complicate the law unnecessarily. I would remind your Lordships that the present penality of two years is the maximum. There is nothing now to prevent a court from imposing a lesser penalty if it thinks that it would meet the circumstances of the case.
May I draw your Lordships' attention to another consequence of the Bill? You
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will notice that Section 1(3) of the 1959 Act, relating to powers of arrest, is left untouched. Thus a constable could arrest without a warrant anyone he found in a street or public place and suspected, with reasonable cause, to be committing either of the proposed new offences. At present the 1959 Act powers of arrest apply only to prostitutes, because only prostitutes can commit the offence. Thus the effect of my noble friend's Bill would be to make the powers of arrest in some respects narrower than they are at present and in some respects wider. They would be narrower because there would no longer be a power to arrest a prostitute for loitering for the purposes of prostitution, since that offence would be abolished. Nor would there be power to arrest a prostitute simply for soliciting. There would have to be reasonable cause to suspect persistent soliciting and that the act of soliciting implied the offering of sexual services for payment or reward. On the other hand, the powers would be much wider—your Lordships may think, dangerously wider—in that they would apply to "any person" who appeared to be committing an offence under the Bill.
In considering my noble friend's proposals, therefore, we must consider very carefully their impact on the powers of arrest. On the one hand, we ought to be satisfied that the proposals do not seriously weaken the powers of the police to control the more objectionable forms of street soliciting; on the other hand, we ought to be satisfied that the powers of summary arrest are not extended beyond what is necessary and so catch innocent people. Any legislation which impinges on moral questions is bound to give rise to controversy, and the problem of prostitution raises particularly difficult issues. The law ought to be adequate to deal with overt social nuisances to which prostitution gives rise, but we must always bear in mild that it is generally accepted that private morality is not the concern of the criminal law. It is not always easy to balance these two considerations—morality and the law. I should be the first to agree that the law relating to street prostitution offences is far from perfect. It has not been a duty I have looked forward to, to point out what we regard as the difficulties of this present Bill. I assure your Lordships that it is a job I would sooner not have had to do.

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The present law has its anomalies and its injustices. But what we have to decide to-day is whether piecemeal amendment of the kind proposed by my noble friend is the answer.
Last Session we debated a Bill with similar aims introduced by my noble friend. He gave an account of that this afternoon and said that he had striven very hard to improve on that Bill. I think he has succeeded in doing so. But the question is whether he has yet got it right. During our last debate I referred to the statement made by my right honourable friend's predecessor, that he proposed to ask the Criminal Law Revision Committee to review the law on sexual offences. I said then that it was hoped that the review would begin during the year—that is, in 1968. My Lords, I now have to tell you that this has not proved possible. The Criminal Law Revision Committee have a heavy programme of other commitments and I cannot at present commit the Government or the Committee on the question when the review of sexual offences is likely to start, but I can reaffirm that it remains the intention to refer the subject to the Committee when their other commitments permit.
My noble friend Lord Chorley quoted from the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Arran, in the last debate, to the effect that I had convinced the noble Earl that something was to be done soon. I repeat now what I said last year—namely, that it was hoped to start a review of sexual offences during the year. I do not think that anyone could reasonably have interpreted that as meaning a Government Bill this Session.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I think that the words used in regard to this were, "very shortly". I do not know what that "very shortly" meant, but one had hoped.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am quoting now what my noble friend behind me said, and he said "Soon." The noble Earl has said "Very shortly". I do not think there is much between them. I would say that both mean "in the reasonably near future". What I said was perfectly honest; but at present the Criminal Law Revision Committee are heavily engaged on their current reviews
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of the law of criminal evidence and of Common Law misdemeanours, which are both major topics. The Committee themselves decided to circulate a Paper setting out their provisional proposals on some of the more controversial aspects of their review, with a view to getting the reactions of lawyers and other interested persons and organisations before they reached their final conclusions. Anyone who sat through the Theft Bill debates will know that there was a wide variety of reactions from learned counsel. But this is a delay which the Committee have calculated on, one which is unavoidable and which I think in the long run would not only be a saving of time but also eventually bring a better Bill. That is what one is up against when standing at this Box and seeking to give an assurance. We have not gone back on anything. We really want to do this job. But I wish to make it clear now that we shall not have the answer in the near future or soon or in any other time expressed in any comparable form of words. But we will certainly press on with it.
Meanwhile, we believe that it is unsatisfactory to attempt to make changes in the law relating to street soliciting in advance of the general review of the law of sexual offences as a whole. The points which my noble friend seeks to deal with in his Bill are aspects of that whole and would suffer from being dealt with in isolation. Although it has not been possible to undertake the review of sexual offences as soon as had been hoped, we still believe that there would be considerable advantage in awaiting the review before seeking to amend any part of the law on the subject.
I have tried to show how sympathetic most of us are to the principles which my noble friend wishes to bring into practice, and I have tried to show some of the difficulties which surround the Bill. There are, perhaps, three main practical considerations. First, the Bill may reduce the effectiveness of the present law in dealing with the street activities of prostitutes. Secondly, there must be doubt whether it would effectively deal with the problem of kerb crawling. Thirdly, there would be the disadvantages of acting in advance of a general review of the subject. These are fundamental difficulties, which it might not be possible to overcome by Amendments to the Bill

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now before us. I know that your Lordships will consider these points carefully in reaching your decision. That decision remains entirely one for you.

NORTHERN IRELAND PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER
4.8 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place on the subject of the appointment of a Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration in Northern Ireland.
The Statement is as follows:
"Hon. Members will recall that, following the disturbances in Londonderry last October, I had discussions with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in London on November 4. When I reported on this meeting to the House the following day, I mentioned that one of the main subjects covered in the talks was the appointment of a Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration in Northern Ireland.
"On November 22 the Northern Ireland Government announced their intention to make such an appointment, and in The Queen's Speech opening the Northern Ireland Parliament on December 17, it was stated that legislation for this purpose would be introduced in the New Year.
"Subsequently the Northern Ireland Government raised with Her Majesty's Government the idea that the first holder of the office of Northern Ireland Parliamentary Commissioner should be Sir Edmund Compton, who would undertake this work in addition to holding the office of Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration for the United Kingdom.
"Her Majesty's Government took the view that provided this did not prevent Sir Edmund from fully discharging the duties which this House has laid upon him, such an appointment would give great confidence both in Northern Ireland and here. Accordingly, after soundings through the usual channels, and after members of our Select Committee on the Parliamentary Commissioner had been informally
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advised, I informed the Northern Ireland Government that there was no objection from the side of the United Kingdom Government to this appointment.
"Accordingly, the Northern Ireland Prime Minister has to-day informed the new Parliament at Stormont that, subject to the passage into law of a Bill which is to be introduced next week, the Northern Ireland Government will advise the Governor to appoint Sir Edmund Compton as the first holder to the office of Parliamentary Commissiner for Northern Ireland. The House will realise that, in this capacity, he would act on complaints referred to him by members of the Northern Ireland Parliament in relation to actions of the Northern Ireland departments. He would not investigate such actions on behalf of Members of this House.
"I understand that Sir Edmund Compton would be willing to accept the Northern Ireland appointment subject to the terms of the Bill as passed into law and to appropriate provision of staff and other administrative arrangements by the Northern Ireland Government. His intention would be so to organise the work as to ensure that he can continue the full discharge of his duties on behalf of Members of this House under the United Kingdom Act."
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships are grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating this Statement. I have only one question that I wish to ask. Before asking the question, however, I should like to state my belief that Sir Edmund Compton will be admirably qualified to discharge the extra responsibilities which he is being asked to take on, and also to remind your Lordships that it was the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland (for whom, I think, without departing from the bounds of neutrality, it would be right for me to say there is considerable admiration on all sides of your Lordships' House) who originally asked for this appointment to be made. That brings me to my question. Can the noble Lord tell us what extra staff, in the view of the two Governments, will be required for the Parliamentary Commissioner, how they will be provided, and who will pay for them?
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I, too, should like to welcome the Statement. We all have a great deal of confidence in Sir Edmund Compton, but I should like to ask the Minister whether it might not give greater confidence to Northern Ireland if there were also a Deputy Parliamentary Commissioner resident in Northern Ireland. May I also ask the noble Lord what happens if a Northern Ireland Member of Parliament refuses to send on a complaint to the Parliamentary Commissioner? In view of the political atmosphere in Northern Ireland at the present time, this could be a very important point. Thirdly, may I ask the noble Lord whether anything is likely to be done about complaints arising in relation to local government matters, because it is in the maladministration of local government that so many complaints arise?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I echo the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, in the first part of his observations. First of all, as regards staffing and the appointment of staff, this must be a matter for the Northern Ireland Government, and I am not sure that it would be right for me to comment on it. The person who will need to satisfy himself that it is satisfactory is Sir Edmund Compton. As I pointed out, his acceptance is conditional on his being satisfied with the staffing arrangements. I think we must leave it to him to see whether it is necessary for a deputy to be appointed. Very much the essence of the appointment is the Parliamentary Commissioner himself, and he ultimately will presumably take responsibility for views that he may form.
On the question of what happens if a Northern Ireland Member of Parliament refuses to send on a complaint, the position is exactly the same as it is in this country. As I understand it, a United Kingdom Member of Parliament has discretion as to what he sends to the Parliamentary Commissioner. When we debated this subject in your Lordships' House, I think most of us felt that this was a sensible sort of sieve. Indeed, when a Member of Parliament is dissatisfied with answers that he may get from a Department, he may decide to call in aid the Parliamentary Commissioner: according to his judgment he can go to him first. I am speaking, I may say, from
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the analogy of the United Kingdom, but I do not know—
LORD BYERS: It is quite remarkable.
LORD SHACKLETON: I do not know what will be in the legislation. But there are quite a number of Members of Parliament in the Northern Ireland Government; and, if my recollection is right, one is not bound in the United Kingdom to confine oneself to one's own Member of Parliament. It is possible to go to other Members of Parliament, and, if I understand it aright, there is quite a variety among the kinds of Members of Parliament in the Northern Ireland Parliament. Perhaps I should not be drawn any further, because this is a matter for them.
I fear that I cannot comment on the position with regard to local government. I am well aware, as clearly are other noble Lords, of the point which the noble Lord, Lord Byers, has in mind. I can only say that this will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Government; and in the light of the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, we may all hope that happy solutions will emerge.
LORD REA: My Lords, for the sake of the record, may I ask whether it is not true that when the noble Lord uses the words "Members of Parliament" he really means "Member of the House of Commons"?—because in this country it is rather less than half the Members of Parliament who are entitled to use this privilege.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am not sure whether the noble Lord is making a House of Lords' point. If so, he is entirely welcome to it.

STREET OFFENCES BILL [H.L.]
4.17 p.m.
Debate on Second Reading resumed.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: My Lords, I am sorry to drag your Lordships away from these fascinating Constitutional topics to the rather more sordid business with which the Street Offences Bill is concerned. The Bill, as it seems to me, has two main objects—it has other objects, but I propose to deal with only two of them, and that quite briefly.

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Its first object is to remove discrimination between prostitutes and their clients. The objective, of course, is entirely confined within the limits of prostitution. The second main purpose of the Bill is to provide the police with increased powers to prevent people from annoying other people by making immoral suggestions to them in a public place, and particularly to prevent people from doing this while driving a motor car.
To achieve the first of these purposes, the Bill proposes to amend Section 1 of the Street Offences Act 1959. It is, I am sure, immensely important always to bear in mind what the 1959 Act was intended to do. As the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has reminded your Lordships, the object of that Act was to abate a public nuisance caused by the presence in great numbers of prostitutes on the streets and in the public places of many of our cities. To that end, the Act was very carefully drafted, as a result of long debates in your Lordships' House and in another place. The Act has succeeded in its object; of that there can be no doubt. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has given your Lordships many figures. I can only add to them that in the London area in 1958 there were 11,000 arrests for prostitution, whereas in the year 1967 there were only 600. The nuisance has been abated; the prostitutes have taken their business elsewhere. Whether it was right to abate the nuisance in that way, or whether it would have been better to have left things as they were, or whether some other manner of abating the nuisance could have been discovered, or whether, indeed, there was a nuisance at all, are all quite different matters.
The limited purpose of the 1959 Street Offences Act has been achieved. Now this Bill wants to improve that Act, as the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, thinks it would improve it, by penalising the prostitute's customer equally with the prostitute. But I must ask the question: to penalise the customer precisely for what? The prostitute is penalised not for being a prostitute but for being a nuisance. Is the prostitute's customer, or are the prostitutes' customers, a nuisance? Were they ever a nuisance? If they were, it would be right to penalise them for the nuisance, just as the prostitutes themselves are penalised. But if they are not a nuisance, then why, I wonder, is it that
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the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, wants to penalise them equally with the prostitute although there is no suggestion so far made that the prostitute herself should be penalised for being a prostitute.
Is there perhaps a hidden motive here in the mind of the noble Lord and in the minds of many other noble Lords—possibly, even probably, in my own—a hidden motive to give further and legal expression to the social disapproval of prostitution? Is it that, while fornication is more or less tolerated now in our permissive society, prostitution— that is, the committing of acts of sexual intercourse or of lewdness for payment—is increasingly disapprobated? But if that is so, would it not be more straightforward to make prostitution itself a criminal offence?
Certainly it is time that we reconsider the whole of our legislation on sexual offences. I am very glad to have the assurance of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that this overall review is not being overlooked but that it will in fact take place. In the light of that review it will perhaps be possible to decide again what is the area of sexual offences by law to permit and what by law to prohibit. It might be decided that it was right to prohibit prostitution. Whether that would be a wise thing or a foolish thing to do, I should not at this moment like to say. Indeed, I think a decision could rightly be taken only after very long and careful debate and anxious consideration of all the possible and probable consequences and implications of such an action.
This Bill, in seeking to remove discrimination between the prostitute and her client, would in effect repeal the 1959 Act and bring the prostitute back on to the streets. I do not think there can be any real doubt about that—and for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. But I am sure that that is not what the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, himself wants. I am satisfied that if he were really to be convinced that the effect of his Bill would be to bring prostitutes back on the streets he would himself withdraw the Bill.
One ought not entirely to overlook one feature of the 1959 Act; namely, that that Act is a protection for a respectable woman who might be loitering

39
for perfectly innocent reasons or might stop a man to ask him the way. Yet there is an element of sex discrimination in the 1959 Act which certainly ought to be removed, and it is this. The 1959 Act protects women against the risk of an unjust prosecution; men are not so protected. Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 enables a man of hitherto exemplary character to be prosecuted if the police observe him in a situation which arouses their suspicion that he is importuning for immoral purposes. This can and does happen, and with grievous consequences. I understand that the reason why there is this discrimination between the treatment of female prostitutes and the treatment of male prostitutes, so that ordinary men are in this way left unprotected, is that the law knows only female prostitutes under the term "common prostitute" and for that reason the 1959 Act cannot be held to apply to a male but is confined entirely to females. I should not have thought that it was beyond the ability of the Law Commission, or indeed of almost anybody else, to bring in a very simple Bill which would amend the Common Law definition of the term "common prostitute". But I am told that this term goes back well into the early stages of the Common Law and that the repercussions of its redefinition might be extremely complicated and complex. But, not being a lawyer, I am not able to speak with any certainty about that.
I move now to the other purpose of the Bill: to deal with the man who tiresomely solicits a woman or the woman who tiresomely solicits a man, but not for the purposes of gain, and in particular the nuisance of the kerb-crawler. I am now convinced, as I was not a year ago, that in certain parts of England the kerb-crawler is undoubtedly a nuisance. So far as I can discover from my inquiries, it is not a nuisance, I am glad to say, which we suffer from in the South-West. It appears to be a nuisance which is apt to confine itself to the Metropolitan Area and the large cities of the West Midlands and the North-West. Why this should be so, I do not wish to speculate. But I am quite sure that the nuisance exists and that it is a cause of annoyance and of alarm to women.
I am not clear how this Bill would affect that nuisance; that is to say, I am
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not clear what further powers the police actually need, or whether this Bill would provide them. I am inclined indeed to think that this particular problem is not soluble, chiefly because ordinary people are not willing to become involved in court proceedings. It is so much easier to go home and to forget about the annoyance and the alarm. If reliance is to be placed on the evidence, not of the person solicited but of other persons who use or reside in the street, then I ask myself: who are these other persons, in what way are they annoyed, and what is the nuisance that has been caused to them?
So, my Lords, I sum up like this. I agree with the second purpose of this Bill, and I should like some way of abating this nuisance to be found, but I do not think that this Bill has found it. With the second purpose of penalising the prostitute's customer equally with the prostitute, I do not agree. I do not agree so long as the ostensible reason for any penalisation of either is the causing of a public nuisance. I might think differently if, after a review of the whole law of sexual offences, prostitution itself were made a criminal offence. Finally, I think the term "common prostitute" should be redefined as quickly as possible to include male as well as female prostitutes.
4.31 p.m.
LORD FOOT: My Lords, on the occasion when the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, introduced his earlier Bill about this time last year, I made my maiden Speech and I rather timorously urged the House to give that Bill a Second Reading although I thought there were considerable objections to the wording. At that time, as to-day, most noble Lords speaking upon the matter gave general approval to the objects which the noble Lord had in mind in the Bill and then went on to make specific criticisms of the detail of the matter. I did the same, but on that occasion I thought that if the Bill had faults they were faults which were curable, and I sought to urge the House to give it a Second Reading in order that those matters of detail might be considered in Committee. Unfortunately our persuasions were of no avail and the Bill was rejected.
In the interim period of these last twelve months the noble Lord, Lord Charley, and the people who have been

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working with him have had the opportunity of reconsidering their Bill, and they have made substantial improvements. Many of the misgivings which were expressed on the previous occasion by me and by others have in fact been met. Your Lordships may remember that the chief misgivings twelve months ago were about two particular problems. The first was the use of the words "for immoral purposes", which were generally felt to be far too uncertain and wide and indefinite, and were words, indeed, which in the case of Crook v. Edmondson one of the judges said were words which, so far as he knew, had never been judicially defined.
That was one of the main objections on the last occasion, and the other was the objection expressed by my noble friend Lord Arran and others that this was exposing innocent people to the possibility of being arrested without any justification, and we did not want to see that risk extended in any way. I think this new Bill has gone a long way to meet those two objections. I do not want to expatiate upon that, because the way in which this Bill is an improvement on the last has already been dealt with in considerable detail and most comprehensively by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley.
What I wish to do for a few minutes is to attempt to make some answer to some of the criticisms that have been made by noble Lords in this debate, and I should like to begin with what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said towards the end of his speech when, as I understood it, he urged that the Bill should be rejected, although he said at the beginning that the Government would be neutral on the matter. As I understood it, he said that this Bill should not go forward but that the consideration of the matters involved in this Bill—these street nuisances and street offences—should await the general review and reform of the law affecting sexual offences.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me to say so, at no time did I advise the House to reject the Bill, or say anything which was explicit in that respect. I said that we were neutral, and my last words were than the decision was entirely a matter for the House. All I have done is to point out where we think the Bill is in
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some respects defective and in some respects would not achieve its objects.
LORD FOOT: My Lords, the last thing I want to do is to misinterpret anything the noble Lord said, but I understood that towards the end of his speech he suggested that it would be better if the matter of street offences and street nuisances could await the general review of the law on sexual offences. That was the only point I was trying to make.
May I now suggest why I think that is not a proper view? This matter of importuning and soliciting in the street is, I suggest, not really concerned with sexual offences; it is primarily a question of public order and seemliness in the streets and in public places, and I do not personally see why it is necessary that the reform of the 1959 Act—if indeed the reform of the Act is called for and is justified—should await the general review of the whole law affecting sexual offences.
May I now turn for a moment to the criticisms that were made by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent? His charges against the Bill were fairly wide. With regard to subsection (1A) his claim, as I understood it, was that the clause as it is drawn would be unenforceable; but when he came to subsection (1B) his criticism was that it was drawl too widely and would catch too many people within its scope. With regard to the first criticism, as I understood the point he made it was that because we have inserted in subsection (1A) the words that a person commits an offence if he persistently accosts
"any person or persons with a view t offering or obtaining sexual services for payment or reward"
it would not in practice be possible to bring successful convictions against the prostitute who accosts the man or against the man who accosts the prostitute, because in most cases, as I understood him to argue, it would not be possible to prove an ingredient in the offence, namely, that the approach was made
"with a view to offering or obtaining sexual services for payment or reward".
I wonder whether that is really true? What is the ordinary case of the person who commits this nuisance of importuning in order to offer or obtain sexual

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services? The ordinary case is, first of all, that a prostitute goes from one man to another and makes some invitation to each: and, if I understand the meaning of the word "persistently" rightly, there would be no difficulty if one had police evidence that a woman had gone up to a series of men. That would be proving the element in the offence that there had been persistent accosting; and if that was proved to the satisfaction of the court, why should the court not infer from all the circumstances of the case that those approaches were made for the purpose of offering sexual services for payment or reward?
The courts do not live wholly out of this world; they know what goes on, and to-day, under the present law, if the courts were not to draw inferences, if they were to regard everything as having to be strictly and absolutely proved, one would probably never be able to get a conviction of a prostitute under the law as it stands. If, under the present law, a woman is charged with this offence under Section 1 of the 1959 Act the prosecution have to prove several ingredients: first, that she loitered or solicited somebody in a public place and that she did it—I forget the exact words—for the purposes of prostitution. First of all, you call evidence that she is a common prostitute, and then you call evidence that she was found loitering in the street or soliciting somebody. If the courts were to say, "There is a third element in this and the prosecution must satisfy us that this was done for the purpose of prostitution," and were to insist upon proof of it, in almost all cases proof would not be forthcoming. What the courts do is to infer from all the circumstances that that is what she was doing.
I see no difficulty myself, in the ordinary case of a woman approaching a series of men, in the courts inferring from that that she is doing it for the purpose of offering sexual services for reward. Equally, when a man goes from one woman to another in the street, making his approaches to her, and is seen by a policeman, I do not see where the difficulty is in the court's inferring that he is doing it in order to obtain sexual services for payment or reward.
With regard to the noble Lord's criticism of subsection (1B), he posed the
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case of the young man out with his girl friend on a beach, a public place, who is pestering her; and the noble Lord says that this clause as it is drawn here would catch a case of that kind and it is far too dangerous to have a law which would embrace a case of that sort. It is always very easy to demolish a section of a law by trying to invent extravagant examples. In the case the noble Lord posed, is it conceivable that anybody is going to prosecute? First of all, you must have the young lady complaining of the pestering. Under the proviso, she would have to be willing to go into court and say that she had been pestered and importuned by her boy friend. Is it conceivable, even if she was prepared to do so, that the police would institute a prosecution? It is not really a serious criticism of this Bill to say that you can think up fantastic situations under which it might theoretically be applicable.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, if I may remind the noble Lord, of course this is what the Bill says.
LORD FOOT: My Lords, I agree it is what the Bill says. The difficulty in drafting legislation is always to try to be so precise in your language that you include the cases you want to include, and exclude the ones you do not want to include. In this imperfect world it is very difficult to draw legislation in such a way that it catches all the cases you want to catch, and leaves go all the ones you want to let go. I dare say the noble Lord would agree that that is the case. It is a Committee point, is it not? If these words are too wide, then let them be restricted at the Committee stage. It is not a criticism that goes to the substance of the Bill.
Then the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, referring particularly to subsection (1A), said that in his view—and I accept this—because of the differences between subsection (1A) and Section 1 of the 1959 Act, because we have left out the word "loiter", because we have introduced the words "persistently to accost" and have introduced the element of persistence, the law which keeps the prostitutes off the streets would be weakened. I am prepared to accept that that may be so. I am prepared to accept that it might be that we could have some return to some numbers of prostitutes on the streets. But if the

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law as it stands to-day is unjust to the prostitute, if it is in fact a great injustice to select a particular class of people and say, "You will be committing an offence against the criminal law if you do what it is perfectly lawful for anyone else to do, because you are a common prostitute. You are not permitted to loiter in the street, to window shop, without a risk of being arrested for having committed this criminal offence", if the law is as ugly as that—and I suggest it is very ugly indeed—is it any argument for maintaining the law in its present state, unreformed, to say that if you do reform it it might mean some of these women coming back on to the streets? That is a price that I am perfectly prepared to pay.
The consideration of this Bill, and the decision as to whether it is going to be given a Second Reading by this House, will be determined by the importance which noble Lords attach to the faults in the existing law: how far they regard it as an ugly law, how far they regard reference to a common prostitute in a Statute as being a defacement of a Statute, how far they regard as evil a special law applicable to one section of the community. I regard it as a very great evil, and I urge upon this House that it is important for our own dignity, it is important for the dignity of the law of this land, that this ugly Act of Parliament, which was passed in semi-panic in 1959, should now be amended so as to do a belated act of reparation to these people, the prostitutes of this country, who have been singled out in this way in a fashion for which I cannot think of any precedent in our criminal law.
I believe that when the 1959 Act was going through its stages in this House the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, spoke most valiantly against it. I think it is clear that he retains the view that that is a most unsatisfactory Act of Parliament. I urge that it would be quite wrong for us to reject this Bill on Second Reading, and not to give this House an opportunity of amending the law, unjust as it is, simply because there may be some faults in the drafting or in the detail.
4.50 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, explained to me that he was detained at a Select Committee, and that is why
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I appear to be taking his place. I was glad to hear the words of the noble Lord, Lord Foot, who I think slightly turned the tide of thought in the discussion upon Lord Chorley's Bill. Up to then most noble Lords had said that they agreed with the purposes of the Bill; they gave him a cheer, so to speak, as he set out on his Sir Galahad-like charge to rescue the damsels, but when it came to the point they were not willing to support him. I am willing to support him. I do so with diffidence after the weighty speech of my right reverend Brother the Bishop of Exeter, but I think it not altogether a bad thing that occasionally your Lordships should realise that the Bishops do not all speak with one voice nor, indeed, with one language. Whether or not this Bill obtains its Second Reading, I believe that the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, will not have been in vain, and that in the end the evils which he is trying to remedy will be remedied either in this way or in another. That there are great evils to be remedied I have no personal doubt.
First of all, I should like to agree wholeheartedly with all that the noble Lord, Lord Foot, has said about the inappropriateness of the phrase "common prostitute" in a Statute of this country. We know very well what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, really thinks about this, because he revealed his mind so very plainly when the present Act was going through its stages in legislation. He said:
"It is a really bad Bill, and I shall do the utmost I can to oppose it at every stage."
So we do not have to apologise in any way to Her Majesty's Government for looking at this present Bill with a fairly critical eye. The more one thinks about it, the more unsuitable is this antiquated phrase "common prostitute". I wonder what your Lordships would think if it were proposed now to introduce legislation bringing the "common fornicator" into some particular position of exposure to the law. Everybody would agree that such a thing was entirely impossible. How about bringing in some legislation specially applicable to the "common thief", apart from the particular act for which he is to be arrested or charged? The whole idea of taking a class of person and saying, "This particular person is subject to the law, but other people are not" is to my mind very repellent.

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I think the Bill does something to redress the gross inequality that has existed for centuries between men and women in all these matters. This dual standard is so deeply engrained in the whole history of mankind that it is almost impossible to realise how frequently it is at work. If one goes right back into the ancient law of the Israelite people one finds all the time that the charges against women in these matters are brought because they are regarded as the goods and chattels of men, either their fathers or their husbands, or their affianced sweethearts; and this goes on even to-day.
I am sure that it has been a great revelation to many of us to learn, as we have heard repeatedly in this debate, that Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 cannot be used in connection with any offences committed by men. I think that is the plainest proof that this inequality between the sexes still remains. If men are to be dealt with they have to be dealt with under the Public Order Act, in which they have to be charged with conduct likely to bring about a breach of the peace.
Coming to the question of kerb-crawling, I think there has been almost unanimity of feeling in the House that this is a bad thing. At least we can go as far as that. How bad it is seems to be still a matter of opinion, and whether anything can be done about it is also a matter of opinion. I think it was the right reverend Prelate who said that he thought it was something that could not be dealt with in the present situation in the country. Personally, I think it is just another case where the car has proved a very great adjunct to crime, and where so far the police and society in general have not yet adjusted themselves to the new situation brought about by the existence of the car in very great numbers.
I believe that there is sufficient evidence already before the House as to the existence of this nuisance. The right reverend Prelate said that it did not exist in the South-West. I do not understand why that should be, particularly as it is hilly country. Otherwise I should have said perhaps he dwelt in the "cities of the plain", and so the womenfolk in his diocese were not exposed to this particular danger. I have a letter here—which I know others have received—from those
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who deal with questions of moral welfare in the city of Liverpool. It says:
"No one is safe from the persistent attentions of the kerb-crawler. The campaign has been undertaken to collect evidence, and this has shown beyond all doubt that legislation is required urgently to give to the police a law under which they can act to clear up this unhappy situation."
I do not believe we can exaggerate the unhappiness that is caused by this particular custom. I have tried to imagine some of the different types of women and girls who might find themselves subjected to this treatment. There is, of course, the woman who is pleased to be invited into the car. She may be on the pavement, too, for that very purpose. Well, I do not think much can be done, or need be done, to help her so far as the law is concerned. There is the woman who is shocked at being asked; the woman who is frightened at being asked, and there is the woman—do not let us forget it—who may be too frightened to refuse, and may fear that if she refuses she will be subjected to real danger. There are places where this could easily happen even in London, in Regent's Park and Hyde Park. Who can tell in how many cases physical force is actually used to pull these women and girls into the car? There are all these ranges of different reactions. The more lonely the situation, of course, the less certain is arraignment of the offender, but if society makes it clear that this is something which it means to eradicate, the general opposition to it will certainly prevent many particular cases in which it is indulged in.
When we come to the exact provisions of the Bill, I think it necessary to comment on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent. He has had one answer, the answer from the noble Lord, Lord Foot, to the effect that the case he thought up is outlandish and one could not imagine it happening. My answer is that the clause could be amended to remove from its operation the kind of situation which the noble Lord had in mind. It is dangerous to risk a form of words, and I know that there is no likelihood of its being incorporated in any provision, but the kind of words which could be inserted are that something "must not be done in a public place other than a place to which the two persons concerned had voluntarily and by

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mutual consent resorted". That would avoid the case of the man and the girl who are spending the afternoon on the beach when the man gets rather too fresh.
I hope that the Bill will receive a Second Reading. I am not entirely happy with some of its provisions, particularly if there is to be any loss of control over loitering, which is a difficult matter. The noble Lord, Lord Foot, said that we should accept the loitering in order to obtain the other advantages provided by the Bill. I would rather find a way in which loitering could still in some way be an offence. We then come back to the difficulty which we faced in dealing with the 1959 Act, that unless there is some limitation of its operation the Bill will go too wide. We were led into the unhappy appellation of the common prostitute as the only person concerned.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, if the right reverend Prelate will allow me, if a person is loitering he does not commit an offence unless he is loitering for the purpose of committing an offence. Then one goes on to define the offence. That is the problem one faces.
THE: LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: I am sure that the matter is most complicated and I do not think I can add anything useful on the point.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter drew a sharp distinction between prostitution, which he rightly said was not a crime, and the nuisance of parading for the purpose of prostitution, which, of course, is a crime. But there is something a little exaggerated in that distinction, since it would not be a nuisance if what they were loitering for was not unpleasant in the eyes of a considerable section of the community. If somebody was just selling violets, nobody would say that it was a nuisance. I mention this point lest it should be thought that, in drawing this distinction, it was sought to undermine the reasons behind the Bill.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: My Lords, I asked whether it was not the case that this Bill and the Act of 1959 conceal a hidden motive in a desire to express more vigorously the social disapprobation of this sort of conduct.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: But surely, my Lords, that applies to the Act as well as to the proposed Bill.
5.5 p.m
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, those of us who support the Bill and the principle embodied in it are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, for so persistently pressing on with the first Bill and then with this modified second Bill. I earnestly hope that the whole House, although it may be critical of certain provisions, will give the Bill a Second Reading so that the many points which have been raised to-day can be discussed in detail in Committee. I apologise that I was not in the Chamber to listen to the earlier part of the debate, but I had an engagement which was fixed some time ago.
My reason for supporting the Bill is that it is an advance towards the fuller recognition of the principle of equality between man and woman. I recognise the great physiological and psychological differences between man and woman. I do not think they are identical at all, but are very different. There should be equality between the two, otherwise segregation of the two sexes will lead ultimately to conflicts because of a basic lack of contact. The right reverend Prelate referred to the early days of the development of mankind, when woman was regarded as a chattel. I would remind him that remnants of this attitude still remain to-day. I believe that in one version of the marriage service which is conducted in the right reverend Prelate's own Church the woman has to be given away by someone to the husband, as if she were a piece of cheese or a pound of potatoes. Indeed, one has some implications in the Decalogue itself.
THE LORD BISHOP or LEICESTER: My Lords, with great respect, the Prayer Book does not actually say "given away"; it says only "gives".
LORD SORENSEN: I cannot see any material difference, because one is "given" to the other and there is nobody to give the man away. It suggests a one-sided arrangement. In the Decalogue one finds an interesting piece of anthropological evidence. Even in those days when the two tablets were supposed to have been delivered to Moses on Sinai by the Almighty himself there was an

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assumption that there should be a permanent inferiority on the part of one sex. One remembers the Commandment which says:
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife … nor his ox, nor his ass",
as if they are all in the same category. The inference in those days, and even to-day among many people, is that they are to be treated in the same category. There is no indication that the wife should not covet her neighbour's husband. I hasten to say that one must not go too far in that direction, but the inference one draws is that it is all one-sided, that the wife is a chattel, along with the ox and the ass and the man-servant and the maid-servant and other objects which the man owns and can punish and do with as he pleases. There are still remnants of that attitude to-day, and that is why I referred, not too seriously, to the process of giving away the bride from one person to another. As I pointed out, it does not take place the other way round; one does not find anybody giving away the man. He would be insulted if it were suggested that he should be given away. This Bill is a step in the right direction.
I am glad that some effort is now being made to recognise that to retain the category historically called "the common prostitute" is most unfair. One does not hear of the common pimp. In the days when one talked glibly about a man sowing his wild oats it was as though it was to be expected, but never as regards a woman. One never heard of a category of "common wild oat sowers". It was assumed that it was right for a man to sow his wild oats and it was a heinous and outrageous thing if a woman attempted to do the same thing. That bias has gone on through history. One understands how it arose and how it was protected and integrated through the years. One rejoices that in recent years, after great struggles, it has come to be realised that the only true relationship between the two very different sexes is one of mutual dignity and humanity. I earnestly hope that we shall do something once and for all to remove from our language of classification the derogatory term "common prostitute." Of course, the institution of prostitution is very ancient. I do not pretend that legislation can abolish it; in fact, I do not
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believe it ever could, even if it tried. But it is one thing to say that; it is quite another to allow to persist at the same time as prostitution so many of these gross inequalities, an attempt to deal with which is taking place in this Bill.
Reference is made in the Bill to the process of kerb crawling. I recognise that this is a very difficult thing to determine. I can see how easily it can lead to blackmail. Allegations can be made, and no doubt sometimes have been made, by some girl or woman with malign intent, or quite innocently, that she has been grossly offended and importuned, and this may lead to blackmail. On the other hand, we must take risks, and in Committee we can surely look at this matter again more closely to see what words can be adopted to avoid so far as we can blackmail and similar dangers.
As to the offence itself, there is no doubt it occurs. I speak from experience, not as one who has himself been kerb crawling but from the experience of my family. As your Lordships know, I live in the district of Waltham Forest. I live at Whipps Cross, and there is a stretch of about a mile from my house to Leytonstone station. One side of that Whipps Cross Road is forest land and on the other side there are houses and a large hospital. Two or three times in the past 38 years during which I have been living at that house either my daughter or friends or my wife have come home to say that they were accosted by kerb crawlers, sometimes very offensively and sometimes dangerously. I have known young ladies, girls, come rushing home almost in tears, because men have brought their car slowly to the kerb, have wound down the window and have said some words, insulting or otherwise; and, of course, the natural nervous reaction for the girl is most distressing.
My wife has herself had a kerb crawler come along and stop her, elderly lady as she is now, although this occurred a few years ago. Apparently, he did not quite see what she was like. But she was not really distressed, and she tried her best to explain to the man that he should have better things to do. These illustrations can be repeated many times over. This particular road lends itself to this practice, especially at night, for there is the darkness of the forest on the

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one side and the houses on the other. I hope most earnestly that this example will bring the attention of all Members of this House to this aspect, and I trust that, either by preserving the existing words in the Bill or by using modified words, we shall enable this nuisance to be brought to an end.
I do not propose to say much more, except that I welcome the Bill most heartily. I am glad there has been so much support. I appreciate the difficulties and dangers, but I hope that the House will give the Bill a unanimous Second Reading, so that we may then endorse the intention behind it. Many of the objections which were raised when we last discussed a Bill of this character have now been overcome and the objectors have, to some extent, been met. In those circumstances it is surely not worth dividing the House, and we can get down to the details in Committee. I hope that something will have emerged out of our debate which will help to establish more surely than heretofore the equality of men and women regarding sex and which will do something to abolish some of the dangers and nuisances that are in our midst. I also hope that we shall be able to do something to provide a clearer and fresher atmosphere in which the people of this country, particularly the young people, can live and love.
5.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, as the introducer of the Amendment to the previous Bill, which in fact wrecked it, I feel I should say a few words to-day. May I begin by saying at once that I find the new Bill a vast improvement upon the old one? Gone, in particular, is the clause to which I took particular exception and which gave powers to arrest without a warrant any person suspected of loitering for immoral purposes. This, as I pointed out, meant that no man waiting for his girl, and no girl waiting for her boy friend, could feel safe and this would have led to an intolerable state of affairs. So much for the dangerous aspect of the original Bill which has now been removed.
As I pointed out last year, the original Bill contained some excellent provisions. The new Bill also does this. Perhaps I may mention them again and add them all up together. First, I naturally and
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wholeheartedly—as does the whole House—approve of this attempt to get rid of what is known as the kerb crawler. Next, I applaud the proposal that, in the matter of importuning, men and women should be treated pari passu—a principle accepted by a majority of your Lordships' House when we debated the sexual Offences Act. Thirdly, I am particularly pleased that in the matter of soliciting both buyer and seller should be regarded as equally culpable. I have always held this to be right. After all, it is the demand which creates the supply, not the supply which creates the demand. Finally, I am delighted with the last part of subsection (1B), which provides that no conviction shall be obtained without evidence from the person importuned, or to whom a nuisance has been caused.
Only two solemn questions remain. The first is whether, despite the redrafting, the Bill entirely safeguards the rights of the individual to go about his or her lawful business without fear of interrogation or arrest. I am not altogether happy about this, and it may be that other Members of the House feel the same. The second question is whether the Bill is necessary at all. Could we not, in fact, be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut? Are the problems involved such as call for special legislation? I am in some doubt. Most of all, I am shaken by the words of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, who said that it would mean the reintroduction of prostitutes on to the streets of London—something which I am very firmly against. At any rate, it seems to me that some redrafting is essential in the light of what has been said and in the light of the dangers which have been pointed to. We simply cannot take risks with the freedom of the individual to walk around the streets without fear of questioning, even of arrest, by the police.
Personally, I would rather see the whole Bill, excellent as it is, destroyed, unless we can be happy in our minds that no such danger exists. Also, I would ,gladly see the Bill go down if it meant that our streets would be filled again with professional ladies. After thinking this over I believe, on balance, that the House should give the Bill a Second Reading, in the hope that during the Committee stage any of the many provisos which are held to

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be necessary will be introduced. If the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, presses us to a Division this afternoon I shall vote for him, though, I freely confess, with some doubt in my heart.
5.20 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I know that during the last year my noble friend Lord Chorley has felt that I was rather lukewarm about the cause of women as expressed in this Bill. Indeed, I think he wondered why I did not make a contribution last year. But I felt that last year's Bill was so faulty in many respects that it was really unfitted to go on the Statute Book. Now we have another Bill before us to-day, and I want to say to my noble friend that to-day my respect for him, for his integrity and for his perseverance is in conflict with my common sense. But I shall be inconsistent, in that I am going to follow him into the Lobby if there is a Division, it the hope that on the Committee stage there will be some amendments to this Bill.
I recall that my noble friend said last year:
"… if one nuisance, that of women, could be remedied by the Street Offences Act, 1959, so can the other nuisance be remedied by another Statute in 1968 …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT,8/2/68, col. 1281.]
Can we equate the protection of our booted young women of to-day from the attentions of men, with or without a car, with the protection from a prostitute of a young man who is "up for the Cup"? As the sexual urge of the man is more insistent, and, consequently, he is more vulnerable and calculated to succumb to the advances of a prostitute, he needs protection, and we gave him protection in 1959. But we cannot possibly plead for sex equality in this context, because, without appearing rather priggish, the fact is that women have a higher moral standard than men and their way of life is dissimilar. One cannot equate the various aspects of the sexual life of men and women, any more than one can equate the obstetrical experiences of the male and the female. They are entirely dissimilar. In fact, in the male, of course, they do not exist at all.
Let me give an illustration of this. It is recommended that boys should be allowed to marry at 18 without parental
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consent. At 17 a boy can obtain a driving licence, so I think we can assume that, the male being the pursuer, he will respond to his biological urge and ask strange young women to have a ride in his car. Or, at 16 he can get a licence to ride a motor-bike, and can ask strange young women to ride on the pillion. And. my goodness me! I remember getting on a pillion when I was 17, a long time ago, though I agree it was not with a strange young man. But this is the law. This is youth expressing itself. It is for cases of this kind that I am concerned as to how subsection (1B) of Clause 1 will be interpreted. It has not been mentioned before, but the age of criminal responsibility is 10, and I understand that any boy over that age could be guilty of an offence under this Bill. A boy could be filled with romantic dreams, but the attraction of the sexes is inborn. Indeed, without it the human race could not exist. Can legislation of this kind control the young roving male, in the springtime of life, who, to quote subsection (4B) of Clause 2—and I am relating life to the Bill—obstructs, pesters or follows, whether in a vehicle or not?
Of course, the lecherous kerb crawler is a different kettle of fish. The experienced kerb crawler, the older man, is of course looking for a companion of his own kind—birds of this kind of feather always flock together—and in that case, of course, he would be equally culpable. But should the activities of the unsophisticated boy—15, 16, 17 or 18 years old—and the libertine be subject to the same punishment? They are put together in this Bill. I ask your Lordships whether the Bill does not put such a tight rein on the natural desires of innocent youth that it will be unenforceable—and, as a Parliamentarian. I know full well that if a measure which is unenforceable is put on the Statute Book it then becomes discredited.
Many men have referred to the helpless little woman, or have at least implied that the woman is helpless in these matters. While we have statistics of violent assaults by men on women, we have no statistics of the number of women who have been annoyed in one way or another by a pest. And when I say, "one way or another", one does not think only of a pest who rides along in a car and makes eyes at a woman on the pavement. Every woman knows that

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there are all kinds of ways whereby a man who is intent upon annoying a woman can do this without the public being aware of it. Why do we not have such statistics? It is because the average woman knows how to handle the situation. Some of these attractive young things handle such a situation every day of their lives, and they prefer to do it rather than be surrounded by publicity.
I am certain that no enactment could fully protect an attractive woman from undesirable attentions. Surely, it has been going on since time immemorial in every country in the world. In Italy, it is so common that the Government had to tell the youth of Italy last year that they should not say nice things to women in the streets, because that was not the custom in their own countries. I must confess that that warning by the Italian Government has made no difference at all to the tourist industry between our country and Italy, particularly with regard to pretty young women. I see that the noble Earl, Lord Arran, has gone, but he said that he was a little afraid that this Bill is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am inclined to think that those who framed this Bill were a little out of touch with the modern woman. In order to bring an action of any kind, the woman must give evidence, and I think very few women would be prepared to give evidence in cases of this kind.
It could be argued that the kerb crawler is looking for a near prostitute. He is therefore encouraging the business of prostitution, and, consequently, should be doubly guilty of an offence. Clause 1 provides that,
"… no one shall be convicted … without evidence having been heard from a person thus importuned or a person to whom such a nuisance has been caused."
What potential prostitute would give evidence against the nasty kerb crawler? I divide my kerb crawlers into two. First, there is the boy with his new car, who is flipping along looking at a gorgeous mini-skirted creature on the pavement; and then there is the man who has done it for years and knows every trick of the game. He is looking for the near-prostitute. Those women are not going to give evidence against him. There is a freemasonry in these circles. Besides, the woman will be reluctant to focus the
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attention of the law on her own activities. She also has something to hide.
So I regard this Bill as one which will punish the occasional, nasty prowler, if he can be caught—and, generally, the experienced ones are not caught. The ones who will be caught are these rather simple boys with their new cars. I do not regard this as a Bill which can possibly protect girls from undesirable advances from men; they will always go on. It is the woman, the girl herself, who knows how to handle the situation. On the other hand, I see in the Bill a danger to the young, inexperienced men who momentarily respond to the attraction of a pretty face, without counting the cost in terms of an offence under the Street Offences Act.
5.31 p.m.
LORD SOPER: My Lords, I have sat through this debate with what fortitude I could command, taking up and putting down points which have been made by others which I should have liked to initiate myself. I think my noble friend, Lord Chorley, must be gratified at the amplitude of the debate as it has taken its course; and rather than proceed with the kind of speech which I intended to make perhaps it will be not inconvenient if I try to draw together some of the threads of the arguments which hitherto have been deployed. There is no doubt at all—and your Lordships will be in no doubt about this—that there is a need, if it could be met, to deal with a public nuisance which is generally described as a street offence. Listening to the noble Baroness who has just sat down, we should probably equally agree that if we cannot make people good by Act of Parliament, that is no reason why we should not seek to make it rather more difficult for them to be bad. There seems to be a reasonable hope that the street offences which now clutter up and contaminate our thoroughfares can in some measure be dealt with and it ought to be the intelligent business of government so to seek to redress those evils and to abate those abuses.
The second point to which I believe general assent has already been given is the inadequacy and, indeed, injustice of the 1959 Act. I entirely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Foot, in his strictures about the common prostitute. It is unjust to select this particular kind of person

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for special treatment and therefore to take her outside the general ambit of the law. It is also quite incorrect to talk about the common prostitute, because most common prostitutes are uncommon prostitutes. To assume that the situation is as Guy de Maupassant and others have delineated it is a complete misdirection of attention and is completely false. It is a gross injustice to put upon a group of people who have to be arbitrarily defined a penalty or a possible penalty which does not afflict others; and it would seem to me a not incongruous flippancy to say that the only safety from the law that the common prostitute enjoys is when she keeps her life at the pace of a continuous canter. It is impossible to justify the present law, the 1959 law, as it stands, and therefore it ought to be altered.
I think that there is overwhelming evidence in this House this afternoon that the inclusion of others besides those delineated hitherto as the "common prostitute" is both necessary on grounds of expediency and still more as we consider the development of the whole issue of soliciting, importuning and accosting—partly because, owing to the immense publicity that it has received in the Press, on the cinema and the television screen and in plays in the theatre, there is a greatly-added interest in homosexual practices; and, as your Lordships probably will know, there is a great deal more soliciting by men and there is a great deal of variety in the kind of soliciting and importuning. This is a sordid subject and I do not intend to go into any detail; but whereas in past days the pattern was, as the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said, "Hallo, dearie, would you like to come home with me?", there is now a revival of that particular invitation but there is added to it a vastly improved liturgy of the prostitute whereby all kinds of other and contributory and even more perverse habits are invited. This is a fact, and although it has not been mentioned hitherto, it deserves prominence in your Lordships' debate on this matter. Therefore, in principle what is good or bad for those who are women and prostitutes to boot is equally good or bad for those who solicit and importune as male prostitutes or as those requiring satisfaction for even more perverse and egregious practices.
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I would take issue with the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter, in his assumption that there is therefore something wrong in a Bill which equates the customer with the prostitute. This would be true only if the customer accosted the prostitute; whereas many a customer, in fact, accosts and importunes innocent bystanders of both sexes. I do not subscribe to the view, adumbrated by the noble Baroness, that our young people of the female persuasion are almost entirely free of fear, are splendid young creatures; mostly handsome, if not beautiful. This is true of some but, unfortunately, not true of many others; and certainly not an argument which goes down very well if any of your Lordships have daughters of impressionable and adolescent age—as I have; and a daughter who is in Exeter University and who could, I think, give to my right reverend Prelate from Exeter some information which has hitherto eluded him.
This Bill also provides what seems to be a very good and entirely justifiable step forward in regard to the evil of kerb-crawling. I wonder whether your Lordships will permit me to say, not arrogantly, that there is a liability to talk a lot of nonsense about kerb-crawlers. I have taken the trouble to find out the nearest to first-hand evidence from the hostel in which we care for girls in need of care and protection, and from a most experienced warden of the hostel who is neither sentimental nor stupid. She assures me that it is impossible to allow the girls of that hostel to travel a quarter of a mile in North London from the hostel itself to one of the local thoroughfares without the absolute certainty of their being accosted at least once and probably more times by the kerb-crawling motorist—who is not just a young gallant with a great deal of sexual impulse and a generally good attitude to life. These men are very often unscrupulous, and the curse of their attitude is that it leaves on many young and impressionable girls impressions and consequences which a great deal of time is needed to eradicate. I happen to know that to be true and to have some experience in looking after those who have been first of all "kerb-crawled" and finally seduced. I take a very serious view of kerb-crawling and I believe that this particular measure, though it needs

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a good deal of treatment in Committee, is in substance right.
I should like to deal with some of those arguments which have been produced as contrary to the success of the Bill and requiring that we should throw it out; because I do not think those arguments are as sound as they may seem to be. With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, what he said of the four categories of those who could not be immediately stigmatised as requiring payment would as cogently apply to anybody who accosted, or was accosted by, a common prostitute, unless in fact it were known to any onlooker that that person were a common prostitute. And though it is true that most common prostitutes are not particularly gracious to look at, that is by no means as true as it was in days not so very long ago.
Secondly, I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that it would be quite easy to deal in Committee with his problem of the bathing issue. I agree with him that as the Bill stands it raises a problem which is not met even by the most cogent argument of the noble Lord, Lord Foot. To introduce the word "accost" in Clause 1(1B) instead of the word "importune" would, I think, meet his case, because you could not say it was a case of accosting in a situation where two people had been sitting on a lido for half an hour or even for three or four hours.
The argument that it would be a return to the streets land the noble Earl, Lord Arran, put his finger on a very real problem here) I think is not proven, even with the ecclesiastical authority of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. I think that there is little evidence to support it and I would set before your Lordships, if I may, a bit of evidence which would seem to me to confound it. Your Lordships have heard a little to-day about the prostitute's bully or pimp. It is the fact that within recent years a great deal of prostitution has been organised in the city and area of London by those who have been prostitutes' managers. With the passing of this Bill it would be impossible for a manager to operate. Therefore it is highly likely that what might be a return to the streets from the Underground and from other public places to which prostitutes now resort would not in fact be such an exodus from
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underground places into public thoroughfares. In any case I heartily agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foot, that if the issue of the common prostitute is morally objectionable—and it is completely morally objectionable—then we have, for the time being, in order to put it right, to be prepared to face even a temporary increase of prostitution upon the streets.
For these reasons, my Lords, I support the principle of the Bill. I believe that it ought to receive a Second Reading. I think it needs magistral amendment in Committee. Many points, which have been so persuasively raised by your Lordships, would guarantee that if this Bill went through unamended it would, in many cases, probably do more harm than good. But I do not believe that any of those arguments invalidate the general intention of the Bill; and therefore I cordially hope that your Lordships will offer to it a Second Reading.
5.43 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I am tempted to say a word or two, partly because I took part in the debate in 1959 on the Amendment which has been referred to, in particular, by the noble Earl, Lord Arran, but also because of something which has just been said by the noble Lord, Lord Soper. I do not think that any speaker has made clear that in the debate in 1959, all of which I re-read last weekend, one of the points was that the term, "common prostitute" had to be left in the clause, because if it was not it would read
"It shall be an offence for any person to loiter …"
I think all of us agreed it was a pity that the expression had to be left in, but that is why it was left in. I felt I should make that point, and one or two others.
With due respect to what the noble Lord, Lord Soper, has said, I feel, with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, that Clause 1(1A) will enable the prostitute to return to our streets. It was the shocking condition of our streets in 1959 which brought about the legislation, and the unattractive but workable, and working, section to which so many have objected. I feel that Clause 1(1B) cannot be administered because of the proviso, a proviso which was expressly advised against by the Wolfenden

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Committee at paragraph 255 of their Report.
If the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, did not advise the rejection of the Bill, he certainly refrained from giving it even faint praise; at least that was my impression. He considered that the matter should be left in the hands of the Government to proceed with as ,soon as may be, and it is clear from what has been said—your Lordships will appreciate this from what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said—that the big problem is kerb crawling. This is a very difficult matter to tackle, and I believe that this Bill applies to kerb crawling in such an oblique way that it will not he as effective as many of us would like.
The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, described how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to administer the provisions of the Bill as they stand. After speaking as I have done, I should like to say as firmly as I can that there is no suggestion in my mind that in opposing this Bill I should want to treat women as chattels, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, suggested was the thought of opponents of the Bill. Indeed, I want to see the male prostitute become liable to any rigours of the law which may apply to the female prostitute. As the Bill does not apply to Scotland, and as my three attractive daughters, whose worries were the cause of my intervention in 1959, are now married and live outwith England, I do not propose to vote either way; but, if I did, I would oppose the Bill. I thought I would just make those points as they impressed me in the course of the debate, and as my thoughts went back to 1959.
5.46 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to start by thanking all those of your Lordships who have taken part in this discussion, and who have contributed to what has, for me, been an exceedingly interesting debate, which I am quite sure it has been to everybody else present. Naturally, I should also like to thank all those who have supported me, not only for their support for the Bill, but also for the nice things that some of them, at any rate, said about me. The only parts of the speech of my noble friend Lady Summerskill
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which I really enjoyed were her nice personal remarks. After that I was reminded of fearing the Greeks when they bring presents. Her "present" was quite a valuable one, because she has informed your Lordships that she intends to go into the Division Lobby with me; and a vote is a vote, even if accompanied by a certain amount of acidity.
It is difficult to reply to a debate like this. One finds oneself making notes of the speeches of one's opponents. I should have liked to thank, one by one, all those who have supported me. But if I make an exception in not doing so, it is in respect of the noble Earl, Lord Arran, because, of course, he defeated me last time. Although his conversion was not quite as stunning as that of St. Paul on the way to Damascus, at any rate it represented a very considerable movement on the part of the noble Earl and, naturally, it has given me a good deal of gratification. Obviously, the noble Earl was very much worried by the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, and in a moment I should like to say a word or two in reply to that.
But in the order of my notes (if I once lose that order I shall never get back to it) I should start with the noble Lord, Lord Derwent. I thought that his speech was completely answered by the noble Lord, Lord Foot. It was a case of the practical lawyer, who knows what happens in courts, talking to the man who shows that he really does not understand at all what happens in courts. I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, is a magistrate, but, if so, he cannot have been doing his job much as a magistrate on the Bench, because the law does not work in the way he suggested. But the noble Lord, Lord Foot, knows how it works.
If the law worked in the way the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, imagines, we should have chaos in this country. Take, my Lords, what he said about having to prove that, in effect, money passed. It is not so. The courts judge from their conduct what people are undertaking to do, what promises they make. Literally hundreds of cases have been decided by courts on the evidence of what people did in the sort of circumstances that happen in our streets. The noble Lord, Lord Foot, pointed out that in 99 cases

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out of 100 there cannot be any question at all about there being a bargain. It may not be written out in full and in detail, but there is a bargain between the parties. It is understood that money is to pass and, if the court, having heard the evidence, is satisfied that it was so, then it has the evidence on which to found a conviction. The remainder of the noble Lord's speech was on just the same unrealistic lines and was, I thought, very effectively answered by the noble Lord, Lord Foot.
I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Stonham. Almost all that he said was in effect Committee stage comment, and if and when I get my Committee stage I am sure that we shall be able to deal with most of it. The important thing my noble friend made clear was that there was no prospect within any reasonable foreseeable time of getting this part of the law altered through the Criminal Law Revision Committee. That stands out a mile. If we really want to get the present position redressed—and most noble Lords this afternoon showed that they do—then we have to do it in advance of the Criminal Law Revision Committee.
That brings me to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. I should like to say to him that I do not want to make men and women equal for the purpose of this part of the law so that men can he penalised, because I have some sort of puritan side to me which wants to see a lot of men who behave in this way brought before the courts and fined. That is not the point at all. As my noble friend Lord Sorensen said, we want to see justice. We do not want to see the continuation of a position which goes right back to Mosaic times. I could say a great deal about this, but I will not take it further. I hope that the right reverend Prelate will realise the position. The real damage he did was that to some extent he persuaded the noble Earl, Lord Arran, and the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, that if this Bill were passed we should return to the position of 1958. We should not. As a matter of law, the law would he completely different under this Bill from what it was in 1958. There may be some recrudescence of prostitution in the streets but there is no reason at all to suppose that we should go back to the 1958 position, because we should have
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a new system of law, and to suggest that we are just going back to the old law is not only wrong but nonsense.
My Bill is to a large extent founded on the Report of the Committee which sat in 1928—an eminent Committee, which was just as good a Committee as the Wolfenden Committee, presided over by Lord Macmillan, who was not only a great lawyer but also a great statesman and a man of the world.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I did not say that we would go back to the position we were in in 1958. I said that subsection (1A) would produce a situation which would result in prostitutes returning to our streets.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, that is the noble Lord's opinion. It cannot be founded on the position in 1958, because we do not go back to the law as it then was, but to a law which met with the approval of a good committee, presided over by a great lawyer and statesman, Lord Macmillan, and I should like your Lordships to realise that. It seems to me that that is a complete answer to this attempt on the part of the right reverend Prelate to make our flesh creep. He went on to say—and I was glad to hear this—that he was converted to the view that kerb crawling is a real public mis-chief and nuisance. Then he said that he did not think that this Bill would succeed in stopping it and he seemed to be doubtful, as was my noble friend Lady Summerskill, whether it was possible to stop it at all. This is the sort of non possumus attitude which really makes me wild. Are we to do nothing?
If my noble friend Lady Summerskill had been speaking to the Victorian Parliaments which introduced all the Statutes for the protection of women, she would have said, "Men are men" in the same sort of way. We should have none of these Statutes on the Book under which people are convicted day after day in our courts for sexual assaults of greater or less severity. This Bill is in line with that. Surely we should try this. Surely we should do something about kerb crawling and not just say that it requires evidence which is too difficult to get and that we really cannot deal with it. That is not the way statesmen ought to face up to these problems.

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So far as my recollection goes, there is no one who has spoken this afternoon who has not taken the view that we are confronted with a really deplorable situation. Everybody has said that my motives are good and it is a pity that they cannot be put into force. They cannot be, if noble Lords take up this sort of attitude. They can be, if noble Lords give my Bill a Second Reading, take it into Committee and make it a good viable Bill. I said at the beginning that I did not claim that this was a perfect Bill but that it was a much better Bill than the Bill of a year ago. I am asking, for your Lordships' assistance to
Resolved in the affirmative: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
put the Bill into Committee, so that we can improve it. Unless your Lordships give it a Second Reading, then that will be the end of it, and no doubt the kerb crawlers will stand each other another drink in the public houses and go out in their cars and get on with the job. For goodness sake, let us have a go at bringing this to an end. I will not take it any further. I ask your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading.
5.56 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Bill shall be now read 2a?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 61; Not-contents, 48.

CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Garnsworthy, L.

Phillips, Bs.

Ailwyn, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Plummer, Bs.

Airedale, L.

Hacking, L.

Poltimore, L.

Amulree, L.

Hankey, L.

Royle, L.

Arran. E. [Teller.]

Hawke, L.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Atholl, D.

Headfort, M.

St. Davids, V.

Barrington, V.

Hertford, M.

Segal, L.

Beswick, L.

Hill of Wivenhoe, L.

Serota, Bs.

Bourne, L.

Hilton of Upton, L.

Soper, L.

Bowles, L.

Inchyra, L.

Sorensen, L. [Teller.]

Bristol, L. Bp.

Kennet, L.

Stocks, Bs.

Brockway, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Brown, L.

Kirkwood, L.

Swansea, L.

Carron, L.

Leatherland, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Chalfont, L.

Leicester, L. Bp.

Teviot, L.

Chorley, L.

Lindgren, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Clwyd, L.

Listowel, E.

Willis, L.

Delacourt-Smith, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Wise, L.

Faringdon, L.

Molson, L.

Wright of Ashton under Lyne, L.

Foot, L.

Moyle, L.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Nunburnholme, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Exeter, L. Bp.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Albemarle, E.

Falmouth, V.

Newton, L.

Allerton, L.

Fortescue, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Alport, L.

Grenfell, L. [Teller.]

Rankeillour, L.

Arwyn, L.

Gridley, L.

Rusholme, L.

Auckland, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L. [Teller.]

St. Aldwyn, E.

Blyton, L.

St. Helens, L.

Burden, L.

Hall, V.

Sandys, L.

Champion, L.

Helsby, L.

Shackleton, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Conesford, L.

Horsbrugh, Bs.

Shannon, E.

Daventry, V.

Iddesleigh, E.

Somers, L.

Denham, L.

Ilford, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Derwent, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Strabolgi, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Jessel, L.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Maelor, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Dundee, E.

Merrivale, L.

Vivian, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

NATIONAL THEATRE BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act 1911; read 1a, and to be printed.

REDUNDANCY REBATES BILL
6.6 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD JESSEL in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Reduction of rebates]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 10, leave out ("three quarters of").
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, with your Lordships' permission I should like to discuss Amendment No. 2 at the same time. It might be for the convenience of the Committee if I go into a little of the background of this matter, because all that the Bill is really concerned with is rebates. The Redundancy Payments Act provides that where employees are made redundant payments are made related to weekly basic wages up to £40 a week, calculated on the basis of half a week for every year of service under 22 years of age, one week for every year of service under 41 years of age, and 1½ weeks for every year of service over 41 up to 64. In all cases the maximum period of service counting for redundancy payment is 20 years, and payments are made by the employer, who receives rebates out of the Redundancy Payments Fund.
This Fund is financed by weekly payments levied from all employers at a rate of 1s. 3d. for men and 7d. for women: it was originally, in 1965, 5d. for men and 2d. for women. But despite the increase in the levy, the fund is in deficit. The Minister has power under the Act to make advances up to a limit of £20 million, and that limit will be reached very soon. That is the background of the matter. The Government decided to put a stop to this drawing on advances.
LORD BROWN: For the sake of the record, may I point out that the noble Lord has quoted the wrong contribution
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rates: they are now 1s. 3d. for a man and 7d. for a woman.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I think the noble Lord must have misheard me. That is what I said. I said that they were originally 5d. and 2d., but they are now at the rate of 1s. 3d. for a man and 7d. for a woman. Four courses were open to deal with this situation. One was to increase the limit of the advances and allow more to be drawn; the second was to increase the levy; the third was to reduce the redundancy payments; and the fourth was to reduce the rebates, thereby increasing the proportion of payments falling on employers where employees are paid off as redundant. The Government decided on this last course. It is not open to your Lordships, even if you were so minded, to make any Amendment to vary that, so as to increase the levy or to reduce the redundancy payments.
The rebates are reduced under the Bill from two-thirds to one-half in the case of service under the age of 41; and from severs-ninths to one-half in the case of service over 41. The effect of this is that, whereas at present employers make the same net payment in respect of service under or over 41 and the Fund pays the difference, in future the Fund will pay the same rebate irrespective of the age—whether it is over 41 or under 41—at which the service is given and the employer will pay the difference. By this change, which is estimated to increase the burden on employers by £17 million a year, the Government hope to be able to pay back the advances received from the Exchequer, as I understand it, at the rate of about £8½ million per year; and, at the same time, to accumulate enough to cover anticipated rises in the cost of redundancy payments due to increases that are expected in weekly wages on which the redundancy payments are based.
Again, if I understood the noble Lord correctly, this is essentially an interim scheme, since the Government expect to change the basis of the levy from a fixed weekly payment per employee to one based on a proportion of the total payroll, under the White Paper which they have already laid before the House, and this would be a proportion of the total payment. It may be thought that

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this would have been better in the first place, because in that case it would have enabled the Fund to rise along with wages, whereas at present, as it is a kind of poll tax per employee, it does not do so unless and until the levy is increased.
What this Amendment proposes is a compromise between the present level of rebates and the level proposed in the Bill. The Amendment leaves unchanged the reduction in rebate in respect of service under 41—the change that is proposed in the Bill is left unchanged; as I said, the Bill proposes that it should be reduced from two-thirds to one-half—but it reduces the rebate on service over 41 from seven-ninths to two-thirds, instead of from seven-ninths to one-half as proposed in the Bill. The only reason the Government have given for what is, after all, a savage increase in the burden on employers who for one reason or another have to reduce their work force, is that the proportion of older men made redundant has risen from 60 per cent. in 1963 to 70 per cent. in 1968, which they say is due largely to more older men volunteering to be made redundant when redundancy schemes are being made between employers and employees. This increase in veteran volunteers is no doubt due in part to the introduction of wage-related unemployment benefit, and in part to the higher level of redundancy payment in respect of service over 41.
The Government seem to think that the best way to discourage such volunteering is not to reduce the incentive to volunteer, but to make the employers pay a higher proportion of the redundancy payment made to old men. This may be good policy but it is curious logic. The Bill is so drawn that we are concerned only with rebates and not with the payments themselves. What we are entitled to consider is how much higher a proportion of the redundancy payments ought to be paid in the circumstances; and that is what this Amendment seeks to achieve.
I hope that the broad effect of the Amendment would be that the reduction of the rebates would suffice to meet the rising level of payments without running the Fund into further deficit. But it would, of course, slow down the repayment of advances already made by the
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Exchequer. But as this is only an interim scheme, that does not seem important, especially as the level of employer contributions, on the basis of a proportion of payroll which is envisaged in future, seems likely to provide a surplus and, at any rate, could be adjusted to do so. So it is only a question of time as to when the advances should be recovered. In the meantime, it is a question of the burden laid upon the employer.
I must give your Lordships some indication of the Amendment's effect on employers, in comparison with the proposal in the Bill. Broadly speaking, under the Amendment the rebate is reduced proportionately by the same fraction of a week's pay, whether in respect of service under 41 or over 41—it is reduced by one-sixth of a week's pay—whereas under the Bill as drafted the rebate is reduced by no less than five-twelfths of the week's pay in the case of service over 41. Let me illustrate this by one example. Let us take two men, one 41 and the other 61, each with 20 years or more of service and each earning a basic wage of £24 a week. The redundancy payment would be £480 in the case of the man of 41, and £720 in the case of the man of 61. That is unchanged, of course, under the Bill. At present the employer pays £160 in the case of each; under the Bill the employer would pay £240 for A and £360 for B. Under the Amendment the employer would pay £240 for each. So while the Bill would increase the employer's share of payment to A by £80, and the payment to the man over 41 by no less than £200, the Amendment would increase the payment by £80 in both cases.
I would remind your Lordships that when the Government first introduced redundancy payments to Parliament they proposed that rebates should be half of payments, but then wiser counsels prevailed. Now they are going back to their original suggestion. I think we all agree that the redundancy payments scheme has two purposes. The first is a social purpose: to provide employees with some compensation for being made redundant which is related to their years of service up to 20, and at the same time to recognise that it is a greater hardship for men in their fifties to be paid off, because it is more difficult for them to find other

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work and to adjust themselves to change. Then there is an economic purpose: to reduce the natural reluctance of employees to accept schemes designed to improve efficiency and productivity where they involve some redundancy.
I do not think it can be denied that the Bill as drafted will render such schemes considerably more expensive for the employer to introduce. Therefore, it is idle to pretend that it will have no adverse effect whatsoever on modernisation. But of course it is not only in such schemes that redundancy payments are involved. During the passage of the 1965 Act in another place, one of the main arguments that persuaded the Government to agree to increase the rebates to their present level was the effect that redundancy payments would have on businesses, particularly small businesses, which were forced by economic circumstances of one kind or another to reduce or disband their labour force. The redundancy payments scheme, as it is now, is admirably adapted to serve the economic purpose I have mentioned. Its advantage is that it helps progressive employers to improve productivity by reducing resistance to change by employees, and its disadvantage is that it places a heavy financial burden on employers who are already in difficulties, at a time when they are least able to bear it. But this Bill is greatly increasing the disadvantage as compared with the advantage. The burden is increased under the Bill by 50 per cent. in respect of service under the age of 41, and by no less than 125 per cent. over the age of 41. My Amendment restricts the additional burden to 50 per cent. in both cases.
Lastly, in the case of any terminal or redundancy payments related to years of service there seems to be no logical reason why an employer should pay more in respect of service over the age of 41 than in respect of service under the age of 41. Take the case of two men who have each served five years, one aged 40 and the other aged 50, both of whom are laid off. It seems to me almost inconceivable that any employer would think of making a higher payment to the man aged 50 simply because all his service was given when he was over 41. But if Parliament thinks fit to make a distinction between the payments to these two men, then in my view Parliament should so
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arrange the financing of the payments that the employer pays the same and the difference is borne by the poll tax (or whatever one likes to call it) levied on the employer in respect of each employee and paid into the redundancy payments fund. I think that is the logical thing to do: to do what the employer would do in any case and for the State to step in and arrange for the rest to be paid through the redundancy payments fund, financed by all employers. That in fact is what Parliament wisely did in 1965 when it passed the Redundancy Payments Act, and that is what my Amendment proposes to continue to do, though inevitably, because of the state of the fund, at a higher cost to the employer than at present. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: I like compromises and it would have been nice to accept the midway stage between the Government's proposal for an Amendment to the Act and that put forward by the noble Lord, but I am afraid I cannot do so. The noble Lord has put forward a quite convincing case by reciting the arguments in support of his Amendment—and no blame to him for that—but I shall have to recite other arguments against doing this. The noble Lord has been perfectly logical in reciting the arguments in support. I do not dissent from much of what he said but I think it is worth reminding the Committee that a survey in 1963 showed that less than 60 per cent. of redundant workers with over two years' service were more than 40 years old, whereas a survey on the same basis in 1968 showed about 70 per cent. to be over the age of 40. There is inferential evidence that one of the influences of the 1965 Act has been to influence employers to accept the voluntary offers of older workers to be made redundant.
In this connection I ought to say that it is the view of the Government that in these days of rising employment and, in some parts of the country, of shortage of employees—although I wish it was so in some other quarters—to displace the older worker, with the probability that he will find great difficulty in getting alternative occupation and in learning new skills, is not in the economic interests of the country. I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that in recent years the average expectation of unemployment for a man

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coming on to the unemployment register has been seven to eight weeks; for a man under 25 years of age it has been only four weeks, whereas for those between 55 and 65 it has been over 23 weeks. This is just an additional factor of the situation. I freely admit that it is a question of judgment as to what is the best point at which to pitch the amount of the payment which is recovered collectively rather than paid by the individual employer, and in this connection I would dissent from the noble Lord's description of the effect of the Bill as being a savage increase of the burden on employers collectively. It represents no change in the burden collectively. Individually it will involve some employers in greater expense, but it will relieve employers collectively of some of the amount they would have to draw from the fund.
The other parts of the argument against the Amendment are these. On the best estimates that we can make—and the noble Lord knows how difficult it is to make estimates in this connection—it would reduce the size of the increase of the revenue to the fund from £17 million to £10½ million. That is to say, it would reduce the repayments to the fund to replace the deficit which has been created recently, by £6½ million per annum. I agree that the Government have the intention of moving towards a different type of recovery of sums from employers to recoup the fund. It is arguable when this will come about, but I do not think it would be far off pushing the fund into further deficit. It is difficult to say in advance just what the rate of call on this fund will be. It might be that we should push it further into deficit, and we are nearly at the limit of the borrowing powers. I hope that at some time in the near future the Government will change the basis of assessment in regard to this fund. I regard it as dangerous to reduce the income to the fund by this large figure of £6½ million per year.
Finally, I am grateful to the noble Lord for doing his sums and pointing out the difference there would be on the call on the fund if his Amendment were passed and the amount that would be required from the fund if the Bill remained as it is at present. This gives me the oportunity to point out that it is
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the intention of the Government to introduce a deterrent to the employer from accepting the offer by older men to be made redundant when redundancy becomes inevitable. That is part of the Government's intention in introducing this Bill. We feel that it is a by-product of the Bill and if this Amendment were to be accepted this important by-product would not arise. It is on these grounds that the Government feel that their judgment in this matter is probably correct, and with great respect to the noble Lord I would ask him, if he sees fit, to withdraw his Amendment on the grounds I have given.
LORD DRUMALBYN: It is with some reluctance that I do so, because I do not think there is really a very strong argument for the case put forward by the Government as against the case that I have put forward to-day. Take, for example, the deterrent to the employers and let us look at it for one moment. It means that the employer will be almost compelled to reduce the number of younger men. In many cases this will mean that he will have to retrain the older men. Can we have any assurance that the trade unions will allow the older men to be retrained? If not, the logic is that the employer should make the older men redundant. All these things fit together, and I am not at all certain that this is the right or reasonable course in circumstances of this kind. It is all very well to say that the younger men get snapped up quickly, but that is simply because they can be easily retrained. If the redundancy scheme is based on a wide restructuring of the industry which involves a high proportion of retraining, this may be pretty difficult. That is the kind of consideration one should have in mind. As I showed before, if you want to prevent the older man from volunteering, then the right way is inevitably and undeniably to reduce the incentive to volunteer. The Government say that for social reasons they do not want to do that. But the alternative is either not to have any volunteering at all or to say to the older man, "You cannot volunteer because it is too expensive".
What view are the unions going to take of this? I think it is quite likely to give rise to a lot of trouble. I simply do not like these arrangements. I think the judgment Parliament made in 1965

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as to how the payments should be split between the Fund and the employer who has a redundancy scheme where redundancy takes place was about the right one. And then the noble Lord did not mention at all the effect on employers who have no option but to have redundancy schemes, no question of choosing to have a redundancy scheme in order to get greater efficiency, having no option because they have to reduce staff or disband it altogether. This will come at the very moment when they are least able to bear it; and this is an increase of 125 per cent. in the amount they have to pay.
I do not think the noble Lord has answered these questions. Obviously, we cannot take this matter to a Division, but I hope the Government will consider it further. If they think there should be a slightly higher proportion in respect of service over 41 it would be fine, but this difference of 125 per cent. really sticks in my throat. I do not think it can be right. I hope that the Government will look at it again.
LORD BROWN: If I may reply on one point, the noble Lord suggested that if more of the older employees are retained in a redundancy he hopes the Government will help in the retraining of those older men. But the nature of the normal redundancy is not to produce a situation where those remaining have to change jobs; the nature of a normal redundancy is that some leave their occupation, and those who are left do not normally have to change their occupation. It is those who leave who have to be retrained and it is right that the younger man, more adaptable for training, should leave rather than the older man. The noble Lord suggested that one should reduce the incentive to volunteer. One could, of course, do that by reducing the payments to the older man. We do not want to enter into this argument, but it is the Government's view that the one and a half weeks per year is the proper recompense for men in the latter part of their service. They should have this amount, and I believe that most good employers would acknowledge that the rate of pay
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ment for old servants should be higher than for younger men who have more opportunity to gain employment elsewhere. One always has this consideration in mind as an employer.
The noble Lord made a point about the effect on the employer who has to introduce redundancy and is in a bad way. I do not deny that perhaps many employers who have redundancy on their hands are in a position of financial strain at the time. But it is equally true that many employers are having redundancies in order to improve the efficiency with which they are operating. There are other employers of a smaller soft who decide to retire from business and who may sell their business or disband it. There are employers who find themselves in a fortunate position as well as those who find themselves in an unfortunate position. What we are really doing is swapping the alternate sides of this argument. This is a matter of judgment, and it is one for the Government to decide where they want to place the balance of judgment. They have so decided, I think rightly. Again I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment in the light of the arguments I have put.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment but not in the light of the arguments. I should like the Government to think about this subject further. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without Amendment; Report received.

SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY BILL
House in Committee: Clauses agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL
6.40 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Shackleton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ST. HELENS in the Chair.] Clause I agreed to.
Clause 2 [Extension and amendment of previous Pensions (Increase) Acts]:
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall be agreed to?
LORD GRIDLEY: My Lords, I do not intend to detain your Lordships for very long on this matter, but my noble friend Lord Selkirk has asked me to say, in his absence, a few words regarding certain officers under these regulations. I am referring to former officers of Achimota College, the Nigerian Coal Corporation and the Lagos Town Council. In the 1962 Act a supplement to or a topping-up of pensions was granted to former members of Her Majesty's Over-sea Civil Service. At the time this was given to meet the existing cost of living, and the consequent devaluation of the purchasing power of the pensions. In spite of many representations, the supplement granted under the 1962 Act to overseas civil servants and pensioners has so far been denied to officers of Achimota College, though it is hard to believe that, at the time of their recruitment, these men were in any different category from those being recruited normally for other overseas service.
I have always understood that the qualification for pensionable status was that the officer concerned was recruited originally by the Crown Agents for the Colonies, on the instruction of the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, and that the service offered was employment on pensionable terms. In the case of Achimota College, there was a Statutory Ordinance in 1930, and it has been argued that under its terms officers were
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recruited for university service and not engaged for a direct Government Department. If one examines the main principles of that Statute, it seems that the then Secretary of State was delegating his powers to the Governor in Council, and that if there was a difference it was of little substance.
Under that Statute, the Principal of the College was appointed by the Governor, but with the approval of the Secretary of State. Pensionable staff were appointed by the Governor, with the approval of the Government. Appointments could not be terminated except with the approval of the Governor, officers were subject to the disciplinary procedures of the Government, and the Governor in Council was to declare the pensionable posts which were to be in existence. The Government's pensionable ordinance and the widows' and orphans' pensionable ordinance were to apply to all officers. This was a condition binding on all officers of the Colonial Service, and as it applied to the officers of Achimota College it is difficult to believe that their term of employment was in any way different from that which was in force for all such officers recruited at that time. In view of this, I cannot believe that any officer recruited to the Achimota College post-1930 would have considered his pensionable status inferior to that of any other officer recruited for service overseas anywhere else at that period.
As I said, they have been denied the supplement, because it is argued that the College became subject to the Statutory Ordinance of 1930 which I have mentioned. But these men were in every sense servants of the Crown. They are, and were, loyal Government servants, and they can turn nowhere for help, in the plight in which they find themselves, except to the British Government.
To come to another aspect of Government service, I now want to refer to the former Nigerian Coal Corporation. In this case, members of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service were given the option either to remain in that service, or to transfer to the Coal Corporation. When the offer was made, each civil servant received a letter in clear, explanatory terms signed by the Chairman of the Coal Corporation. In addition, to

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give it greater force, that letter had the approval of the Government of Nigeria and the then Secretary of State. Specific assurances were given on the following most important points. Each officer was told that service with the Corporation would be no less attractive than in his present form of employment; that is to say, in the Civil Service. He would suffer no loss of the rights or benefits which would normally accrue to him. Pensionable status, which officers would have enjoyed had they remained in Government service, would in no way be diminished. Those were the terms of the letter. But this has not occurred. These guarantees have not been carried out, and no supplement has been paid to any of those officers.
The last case is that of the Lagos Town Council. To go into the history of that, one finds that between 1916 and 1938 staff for the Council were recruited by the Crown Agents, and the posts were declared to be pensionable by the Governor-in-Council with the sanction of the Secretary of State. These men, too, have received no supplement, though officers of the Town Council contributed to the Government's Widows' and Orphans' Pension Scheme as was required of every officer who joined the Colonial Service, who was under the instructions of the Secretary of State and the Crown Agents for the Colonies.
In view of what was said in Standing Committee on February 4 in another place, I hope that the Government are prepared to look into these cases with sympathy and consideration. Of course, it is only too easy, as an after-thought, to plead the existence of anomalies. But what I think is not denied on all sides is that there has been hardship and inequity in these cases. These men are loyal former servants of the Crown, whom Parliament surely has a duty to protect, and I was gratified in the Second Reading debate to hear the great tributes which the noble Lord the Leader of the House paid to all former civil servants of the Crown. I know that in this respect we have his sympathies. If the noble Lord could give me some assurance that the cases I have mentioned will receive the sympathetic consideration of Her Majesty's Government, then I and the officers concerned would be most grateful.
6.48 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: This is one of those difficult areas, where anyone concerned with administering pensions schemes, or similar arrangements of that kind, is desperately seeking for principle and consistency in the administration of the various provisions. There is, of course, a certain continuing measure of consistency all the way through in regard to overseas pensioners, except that in the last two Acts, and in this Act, further concessions have been made. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, will acknowledge that there is now a concession with regard to overseas pensioners who are living in any country in the world, whereas in the past it was more restricted, and this adds to the cost.
Before I come to the position of Achimota College, perhaps I may explain the general position with regard to the overseas pensioner who has transferred from Crown service into some other form of service. Of course, he receives the full British supplement appropriate to his overseas pension in respect of his central Government service, in the same way and subject to the same conditions as other Crown service pensioners. But the pensioner does not qualify for a British supplement in respect of the pension arising from his service after he left Crown service, and I know the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, understands this very well. As a general rule, the pensioners concerned were not compulsorily transferred from central Government service to the new statutory body, but were seconded to its service. During the period of the secondment, they were then offered a choice, either of transferring to the new body or of reverting to the service of the Crown.
I admit that there is a certain element of "Hobson's Choice" in this, and I do not wish to take too strong a stand upon it. Although it is recognised that they were encouraged to transfer, they were free to revert and were then, if possible, found suitable employment. If none was available, they were retired on enhanced pension terms. If they agreed to transfer to the new statutory body, they were normally guaranteed and enjoyed no less favourable terms than they had when in Crown service. But the guarantee could not and did not extend to the British pensions supplements, which are not part of an officer's service overseas. Although

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the overseas pensioners concerned are not so well off as Her Majesty's Civil Service pensioners, they are no worse off than they would have been if they had retired at the date of transfer from Crown service. They have not been discriminated against by their overseas employers, since they receive from them the full pensions to which they were entitled by their service plus the same pensions increases as the overseas employers pay to their indigenous pensioners. It is difficult to make any distinction.
I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, said about Achimota College, and I should like to study the matter more closely. My information suggests that, notwithstanding the powerful presentation that these employees were in no different position from those who were not in the Civil Service, they were recruited by Crown Agents. This is not a criterion, since they recruit for a variety of overseas bodies. The terms of service provided by Statute said clearly that the hiring and firing of the staff rested with the Council of the College, and not with the Secretary of State. Those who were employed before 1930, and who were compulsorily transferred to the newly based College, were given unique conditions and guarantees and have been given greater pension supplements. The position is the same with regard to Lagos Town Council.
I do not feel that what I have to say will bring much comfort to the noble Lord, but knowing that the matter was going to be raised (I thought by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, although the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, with his great knowledge of these matters, has put the case well), and having studied again the principles which have been applied, I do not see how Her Majesty's Government could depart from those principles without driving an enormous hole into the whole system governing pensions for Crown service. I certainly undertake to look at this matter again, but it would be misleading to hold out any hope to the noble Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, passed me a note about Indian Civil Servants. I understand that they are provided for under slightly different provisions in Schedule 2.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Pensions Qualifying for Increase under Section 1; Table of Percentage Increases]:
6.55 p.m.
LORD BOURNE LORD BOURNE moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 12, leave out line 5 and insert—
(" Not later than 1st July 1945 … 25 per cent. After 1st July 1945 but not
later than 1st July 1955 … IS per cent.")
The noble Lord said: I put down this Amendment since I felt that it was generally agreed on all sides of the House that the pre-war pensioners of the Civil Service, especially the pre-war pensioners and their widows under the 1919 Code in the Armed Forces—that is to say, those from 1919 up to 1945—deserve better treatment than they receive in the Bill. During the debate on Second Reading I pointed to the effect of these Pensions (Increase) Bills, with their escalating scales of percentage increases, on the smaller pensioners. It is nobody's fault, but the result is that the pre-war pensioners will get further behind every time there is a Pensions (Increase) Bill.
When I suggested one or two ways of remedying this situation the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, said that he thought there were better ways of doing it, namely, by increasing the percentages at the top end of the scale. That is what my Amendment proposes. I propose 25 per cent. instead of 18 per cent. for the pre-1945 men and women. I will not go over all that was said during the Second Reading, except to say that although we accept the intended generosity in the Bill, there are in it very real snags to people in that category. I mentioned that they were getting further behind and that the numbers involved are fairly considerable. There are in fact 99.000 of them. The actual figures are 7,000 officers, 42,000 other ranks, 5,000 widows and 45.000 civil servants, all of whom are affected by my Amendment.
On Second Reading I drew attention to the two elements which the Government have agreed should be catered for in pensions increase legislation. First of all, these increases are to deal with the cost of living and price rises, and, secondly, they are to give a share in the increasing standard of living or prosperity. I can do no better than quote what was said by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury three years ago during

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the proceedings on an earlier pensions increase provision. He put it very well indeed by saying:
"We are responsible for the management of the public services and are, therefore, concerned to see that public service pensioners do not, as a result of inflation, suffer hardship—whether in absolute terms, if their pensions will no longer buy the necessities of life, or relative hardship, if their pensions will no longer give them the standard of living which they had earned through their years of service and to which they had reasonably looked forward when they retired."— [OFFICAL REPORT, Commons, 18/11/65; col. 1352.]
Those are the points which are sought to be covered in my Amendment.
I should like to take the examples of a captain and a major-general, examples which I mentioned during the Second Reading debate. The pre-war captain, before the Bill, was drawing £560. Under the Bill as it stands he will draw £661. Under the amendment with the 25 per cent. he would get £700, an increase of £140 instead of £101. He, your Lordships will remember, is already 50 per cent. behind on his standard of living, and senior officers are even further behind. In case anyone thinks that this is being a shade generous, I may say that to-day's captain draws £895, which is considerably more than £700. To quote the major-general similarly: before this Bill he was drawing £1,618; under the Bill he will draw £1,910; and under the 25 per cent. Amendment proposed he would draw £2,023, which is an increase of £405 instead of £292—rather better. But he is nowhere near the present-day major-general, who would be drawing £2,720. I maintain that my proposal is no more than the justice, the common reward, which we have all agreed we should pay these people.
My remarks apply even more strongly to the widows, many of whom draw not maximum widows' pensions but minimum widows' pensions—very small sums indeed. I quoted the case of a widow of a lieutenant-colonel who died very shortly after World War I and who had to draw supplementary benefit.
LORD SHACKLETON: May I interrupt the noble Lord? Is he talking about the widow of a lieutenant-colonel who died? Because on the last occasion he talked about the widow of a lieutenant-colonel who was killed; and, of
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course, war-widows' pensions do provide parity, and. this rather confused me.
LORD BOURNE: I apologise for confusing your Lordships and the noble Lord the Leader of the House. I should have said "died" instead of "was killed". It is much the same thing when you actually do it.
To sum up, I should like to move this Amendment in order to enable this very hard-hit section of the community, both retired Armed Forces people and civil servants, to catch up slightly on the figures which I gave, before they are totally forgotten under the earnings-related scheme which is coming upon us pretty soon, and also before the review takes place on April 1, 1971, as was promised in another place. I reckon that we ought to do the catching up before this takes place. If I am told that this would involve giving some other ranks and some civil servants of a lower grade rather more than people retiring to-day, then I suggest it is a very small price to pay. The cost of my Amendment would be less than half-a-million pounds. I beg to move.
LORD THURLOW: I will not take up a moment, but I should like to support my noble and gallant friend in his Amendment. I have addressed your Lordships on two occasions before on this subject, when my own Party was in power, but I regret that nothing was done for these old .and rapidly-aging pensioners. I hope that the Government will have a look at this and will try to do something on the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, because I feel that this category has been very harshly treated in these days when the cost of living has risen so much higher in a very short period. If something could be done now to bring their pensions up to a more reasonable level then future examinations of the whole pensions problem would be much easier and a great deal of happiness would be generated all round.
There is one point which is very important, and that is that, whoever is in power, we are always trying to get the best type of officers and men into the Armed Forces; and those of us who have served in the Armed Forces are constantly being asked by our friends whether the career is still worth going

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into. One of the reasons put forward against it by so many people is the way that pensions have dropped so far behind the cost of living. I ask the Government to consider this and to try to give a favourable answer to my noble and gallant friend Lord Bourne.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: All my sympathies are with my noble and gallant friend's Amendment. I spoke in similar terms on the Second Reading of the Bill, and the only reason why I did not seek to table an Amendment of a similar kind on the Committee stage was because I frankly felt that there would be no chance of an Amendment making any substantial difference to the finance of the Bill being accepted in another place. I have to confess that I have not the familiarity with the 1919 Code for Service pensions which is enjoyed by my noble and gallant friend. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that there is widespread public sympathy for those people who retired many years ago and who are now having to live on pensions which, judged by modern standards, everybody would consider inadequate.
I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will help us by explaining what the practical effect of this Amendment would be in different cases. My belief is that in the case of Service pensions and in the case of the pensions of the higher civil servants it would be wholly reasonable and fully to be supported. I suspect—I do not know for sure, but I am familiar with the ease with which one can create anomalies through pensions increase proposals—that, as my noble and gallant friend said, it might raise the pensions of some of the less well paid but long-retired civil servants above the pensions that would be enjoyed by men and women of the same rank who retired considerably later. May I suggest that we should try to find a way through this? It is unreasonable that we should stop short of doing justice to certain categories of people because if we applied an overall percentage increase it would bring the pensions of certain other people out of line. I quite realise that the noble Lord the Leader of the House has to apply himself to the Amendment on the paper and not to some hypothetical Amendment
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such as I am adumbrating, but I strongly suspect that this will not be the last Pensions (Increase) Bill.
From personal experience, I have the highest admiration for those in the Civil Service who have to specialise in this subject. They need wonderfully clear minds and they need the most comprehensive knowledge—and, of course, they are restricted, as we all realise, by Chancellors of the Exchequer, who can make only limited amounts of money available. From time to time there have been new initiatives in Pensions (Increase) Bills, not all of which have been as successful as others; but what I am submitting is that we should now seek a new initiative, a new departure, by which we could find an expedient, a device, to do justice to those people who have retired long since and whose pensions are, as I have said, unworthy in present public estimation, without creating the anomalies that a flat percentage increase would induce for certain other ranks. That is the best contribution that I can make to this debate, but I feel quite sure that your Lordships ought not to let go of this subject until we have found some means of meeting the very powerful case that my noble and gallant friend has made.
LORD SHACKLETON: First of all, may I say that I am grateful to all the noble Lords who have spoken, and I am grateful in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. As I have said before, no one has fought more strongly on this subject than he has, and I very much appreciate, despite the strength of his feeling, the moderation with which he puts his case, which does not suffer in effect as a result. Let me preface my remarks by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, that he rather gave the impression that we were doing nothing for these older pensioners. When he reads his remarks, he will find that he said that we must do something. This Bill does something; it increases their pensions by 18 per cent. I will go on to analyse the consequences of this particular Amendment and I will seek to meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, because, fairly, he put his finger on some of the difficulties that are involved. May I say that I appreciate his remarks with regard to those who have to work this out. It is a fact that it is to-day the Civil Service Department and not the

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Treasury who are responsible—although the Treasury is always with us.
My Lords, there is one very important thing that I wish to make clear. We are not talking about war pensions; we are not talking about war widows' pensions. It is really important to get this across—although I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, was speaking in a particular context when he talked about the widow of the colonel who was killed in action as opposed to the widow of the colonel who died. There is a very different position here. Although the noble Lord said that it is all the same to the individual, I am quite sure that he would not advocate that we should assimilate the position of those with disability pensions or war widows' pensions with the generality. This is something which the nation has decided is a case for special provision; and parity is provided in these circumstances. Therefore, although this is related primarily to the Services, we are talking about people who have died not as a result of action; people whose death is in no way attributable to their service. In this respect their position is the same whether they be civil servants, serving airmen or serving soldiers or officers.
The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, argued his case in a most persuasive way. He was saying that we ought to be doing more for the pensioner of longer standing who retired 24 or more years ago. Although words are not enough, I stress that he is far from being alone in his anxious concern for these people. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, that I have no doubt that if there were any satisfactory way, within reasonable limits of cost, of bringing more assistance to those who have fared so ill in the past there is none of us who would hesitate for a moment to back it. But the situation is infinitely more complicated than has been suggested. I am not suggesting that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, has in any way sought to be unfair; he has always accepted the fact that there are complications. But, my Lords, there can be complications so great as to cause one so say: "We cannot proceed along these lines; we must find another way." The difficulty is in trying to find another way.
May I first deal with the question of cost? Successive Governments, the previous Government and this one, have brought in ever more costly measures
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over the years to improve the position of public service pensioners; but however far they have found it possible to go the standard emotion expressed in debate is always one of regret that they have not been able to carry the matter a step further. This is a reaction that we all understand and about which none of us would complain. If I may say so, I think it is right to recognise tint the new commitment in this field of £34 million (at a time of severe economic stringency) represents quite a considerable burden; but it is one that we recognise as right. The increases proposed by the Bill have been planned to distribute these resources in as equitable a way as possible with particular attention to the needs of the older pensioners.
The noble Lord's Amendment would add a sum getting on for about £2 million to this cost. It is always easy to say, "What is £2 million against a sum of the magnitude of £34 million?" But the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, knows that one cannot conduct the control of public expenditure on this basis. And, my Lords, it is not only the cost of the noble Lord's Amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, recognised last week (and again to-day) this is a subject of great complexity. Indeed, the more I have gone into this subject the more I am hound to say that there is very little about it that is straightforward. It is simply not the case that one can identify all the pre-July, 1945, pensioners as a group that has done particularly badly and that one can justify an increase for them substantially larger than that for any other group.
My Lords, I think I owe an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. He moved me enough the other day for me to say that whereas I did not like a flat rate increase, I should look—if I were to look at anything—at the escalator. I suspect that I may have encouraged him in a way which, from the Front Bench, perhaps was wrong. It was certainly with no intention of fobbing him off. We have examined this and we have looked closely at the proposal. There are, I freely recognise, those among our older pensioners for whom we should all like to think more could be done. I am not wanting merely to bandy figures with the noble Lord. hut this Amendment would

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create some quite intolerable anomalies and would intensify others.
It is, I think, well recognised that of those who retired under the 1919 Code, the other rank pensioners are more favourably placed than officers. We already have the rather astonishing anomaly —I say this particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, who spoke of the other ranks—that the 1919 private is ahead of the current rate. The effect of the Amendment would be to put him still further ahead. But this is by no means all. The Amendment would create a completely new set of anomalies. The 1919 serjeant, when these new increases take effect will be only 3s, behind the current Code pensioner— that is, the person due to retire now would be put 3s. ahead. For retired officers on the 1919 Code, the Amendment would put a major's pension £30 ahead of a 1945 Code pension. Even at that level, therefore, the Amendment would carry the oldest pensioners ahead of the 1945 parity. Similar anomalies would occur on a wide scale in the public services. I give a single example. A clerical officer who retired at the end of 1939 would by the Amendment have his pension brought ahead of any subsequent pension for similar service up to and including one awarded at the end of 1967.
My Lords, some anomalies are inevitable, but I think we must agree that they have to be contained within reasonable limits. Even if it were feasible to devote a further £2 million or so to this purpose I cannot think it would be right to distribute it in a way which would have such arbitrary consequences. I say to the noble Lord that I am not insensitive to what has been urged. We are very well aware of his concern which I think the whole Committee shares. I should like to emphasise that with the 1965 Act following on earlier Acts, and again under this Bill, those affected by the Amendment receive increases which, at least so far as this period is concerned, more than fully compensate them for the rise in the cost of living since the previous measure took effect. So at least they are, if anything, slightly better off relatively than they were under the previous pension arrangements. Taking the two measures together, they will have received an improvement in the purchas-
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ing power of their pensions of getting on for 10 per cent. Some of them have still a long way to go, and this we do not dispute, but I would draw attention to this figure because it underlines the point that at least we have reversed the trend of earlier years and got these pensions moving in the right direction. So at least the anomalies are not getting worse.
The great difficulty confronting any Government is that the moment they want to start looking fundamentally at proposals for pensions, they realise that they are about to embark on a very major study. I have already informed your Lordships that as soon as we have brought this Bill into effect we intend to get down to a detailed study of the whole problem with the genuine intention of trying to find some better way forward for the future. In the course of this study we shall examine carefully how best to do full justice to all our pensioners, but especially to those who have suffered longest the erosion of their pensions, without at the same time providing unjustifiably large increases for some groups or placing unreasonably heavy burdens on the taxpayer in circumstances where, as this Amendment would propose, the case is not made out as compared with current pensioners. It will, of course, be the taxpayers and ratepayers who have to pay for this, and the problems are not easy, but I want to stress that we intend, and I know that my officials intend, to tackle them with resolution.
I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, will say, "Well, it will be too late for some people", and that is a powerful and heart-moving argument. I can only say that we have done the best we believe to be possible. I stress again that we are not talking about those with war pensions; we are talking of those who are retired and in many respects comparable to people in civilian life. One has to remember that, again before the war, the widow of an other rank got no pension at all. I accept that there is here a powerful argument with regard to the way the burden has fallen on the pensioners in the higher ranks, but I can only say that they will benefit quite considerably from this Bill and that we certainly intend to try to work—though it will not be a short process—for what I hope will be a more equitable basis.
LORD BOURNE: We have heard the noble Lord the Leader of the House say why the Government are unable to accept this Amendment. I very well understand the reasons. There is a slight discrepancy in the figures, because, in answer to a Parliamentary Question in another place, the actual cost for the Armed Forces of the 25 per cent.—or levelling up to 1945 which is pretty nearly the same thing—was given as £300,000. So I find it difficult to believe that the civil servants cost the difference between that and £2 million. At the same time, I have to admit that figures are very difficult to establish in this flatter and I think we should leave them out.
We have all said that we want to help this section of the community because it is a deserving section, but sometimes I wonder whether we remember the things that are said by the Government and by us all about keeping pace with the cost of living and sharing in the rising prosperity. We say these things, but there are examples which I quoted to show that although there is an increase, and even an increase in the increase, as the noble Leader has told us, over the successive Pension (Increase) Acts, the fact remains that these people are getting further behind. I still think that we ought to remember them. I should very much like to introduce the captain whom I mentioned to the postman to whom the noble Lord the Leader of the House referred as keeping up with the cost of living. My captain is 50 per cent. behind, and has been suffering for quite a long time. He is a "pre-war model".
It is agreed that any time you try to help these people, whether by a levelling up process or a flat-rate increase as was suggested the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, or by an increase in the percentages on the escalator as I have suggested this afternoon, unfortunately you create more anomalies. My point was, let us put up with the anomalies. We have not a very long period before the big earnings-related scheme comes along, and the people I am talking about, the pre-war pensioners, are too old to draw National Insurance or to be affected by the earnings-related scheme. They may be forgotten. I sincerely hope, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, that we shall have another Pensions (Increase) Act
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following on the review promised us in 1971, and that even more attention will then be paid to this matter than the Government have paid this time. I beg leave to withdraw—
LORD SHACKLETON: Before the noble Lord asks leave to withdraw his Amendment, may I say that we have listened to what he said, but I must stress again that the Government have not forgotten these pensioners. The trend has been reversed. Something is being done, though it is not as much as many of us would like to do. But I do not think that it should be allowed to he said that nothing has been done and that steps have not been taken at least to halt the erosion and claw a little back.
LORD BOURNE: I should like to thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that assurance and to say that hope we shall be able to have discussions with him and the Minister of Defence about how to help this section of the community on whose behalf I put down the Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without Amendment; Report received.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE INQUIRY AND PRESS REPORTS
7.30 p.m.
LORD ROYLE LORD ROYLE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will seek information from the Chairman of the Northumberland Committee of Inquiry into foot-and-mouth disease as to whether the Committee sat on February 15, 1969, and also how the publication, Farmer and Stockbreeder, was in a position to publish on February 4 the fact that the meeting was taking place on February 15 and were able to anticipate the Report of that Committee. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to ask the Unstarred Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. May I say at the beginning that I am very conscious of the fact that a very important Question in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, is to follow my Question. Because of that, I shall try to make my case

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on the Question as short as I can. I will start by assuming that noble Lords have read the Question and that I do not need to repeat it.
May I say straight away that I have no desire to enter into any discussion of the causes of foot-and-mouth disease or the possibility of avoiding the terrible outbreak we had a short time ago. That is not my purpose. That duty falls on the committee of inquiry into foot-and-mouth disease, which was set up by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and is presided over by the noble Duke, the Duke of Northumberland. It was set up as an independent body to hear evidence and present its Report. And if it has maintained that independence and ultimately bases its Report on that evidence, I for one shall be happy to see the Report implemented. But—and it is a very big "but"—at this moment I have some doubts about whether these conditions apply.
My doubts arise from a leading article in the Farmer and Stockbreeder of February 4. If I may, I will quote the relevant parts of that article.
"The draft report on foot-and-mouth disease of the Northumberland Committee recommends that on animal health grounds imports into the United Kingdom of carcass meat from countries where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic should be prohibited after a year's grace, which would give those countries time to switch over to the production of boned chilled meat."
Later on the article says:
"The Northumberland Committee will be meeting "—
remember this was on February 4—
"on Saturday, 15th February, a year to the clay since the Minister announced its establishment, to finalise the report. If the draft recommendations are agreed it will be a victory for Mr. Henry Plumb, the National Farmers' Union's deputy president, and the only practical farmer on the Committee, who has fought throughout the year to convince his colleagues that prohibition of imports of carcass meat from endemic countries was the right policy. At one time it looked as if Mr. Plumb would have to produce a one-man minority report expressing this view. Now, with the Duke of Northumberland himself as the first convert, the majority of the Committee has swung behind the proposal."
From these quotations, I would suggest that some serious questions arise. I am going to ask these questions and not elaborate at all. First, how was that journal in the position to say categorically
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that the draft report recommends something before it reaches the Minister? Secondly, how did the journal know that the Committee was meeting on February 15 to finalise its Report? Thirdly, was the information—and I stress the word "information", because it was not given as conjecture—given by Mr. Henry Plumb as a Committee member and deputy president of the N.F.U.? Fourthly, if the article is correct, has Mr. Plumb acted as an independent member of that Committee or as an advocate of the N.F.U. point of view? Fifthly, I wonder whether the noble Duke is prepared to concede that he has been converted, not by the evidence and its examination, but by the fighting prowess of Mr. Henry Plumb? And are the other distinguished members of the Committee also prepared to concede their conversion to him? If they are not, why has no denial or repudiation appeared in the columns of the subsequent issues of the Farmer and Stockbreeder?
I took the trouble of looking up this morning's issue—and this is the fourth issue since February 5—and at no point has it ever been repudiated or has the Chairman of that Committee written to the Farmer and Stockbreeder to put things right. That same gentleman, Mr. Henry Plumb, in April, 1968, made the public statement:
"To protect British housewives we must make sure that meat is prevented from coming from the Argentine".
I suggest that this gentleman has gone a little bit too far. This gentleman is not behaving in the right fashion, as a responsible member of an independent Committee of this kind.
In conclusion, I suggest that the article, so far not repudiated, shakes confidence in the fairness and independence of this Committee. It suggests that among its number there is a man who approached his task with a biased mind and who, I suggest, was not suitable to be a member of such an independent committee of inquiry. In my view, and I hope your Lordships will agree with me, it is a complete contradiction of what Parliament regards as a committee of inquiry, and unless there is an unequivocal repudiation of that article to my mind the Report will be useless and will have no weight.
It may be that when my noble friend Lord Beswick replies he will be tempted to say that this has nothing whatever to do with the Government; that once a committee of inquiry has been established, its behaviour and way of working is entirely its business. I hope that he will not rely on that argument, because I believe that it is the Minister's responsibility to ensure that this is an independent Report, based on evidence and the consideration of evidence rather than on a particular member's advocacy of one particular point of view. I should have liked to elaborate on these questions but I know that other things have to be discussed this evening.
7.38 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, my noble friend has a great interest in these matters, which I appreciate, and he has put his reasons and his apprehensions forcefully and clearly. May I thank him for being good enough to realise that he puts me, in some respects, in a difficult position in replying. Although he said that he had no wish to open up a discussion about this wretched foot-and-mouth disease he is in fact asking me to comment upon the contents of a Report which has not yet been published. I do not know what is in the Report, nor does the Minister, and certainly Mr. Murray, the author of this speculative article in the Farmer and Stockbreeder, does not know what is in this Report. No one can object to any active and enthusiastic journalist putting down his own opinions and prophecies and frankly I cannot see why I should be expected to comment one way or the other about the alleged contents of the forthcoming Report of this Committee.
My noble friend asked for a denial and repudiation, but why should any member of the Government have to deny or repudiate a statement simply because a journalist makes it in an article? My noble friend is saying that he never said that, but he will see when he reads Hansard to-morrow that he did indeed say that because there was no denial or repudiation, he was entitled to believe that there is substance in the article to which he refers. I say this to my noble friend, because I know that on many of these matters his opinion will be the same as mine. To put one in a position where
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one has to repudiate everything said in a journal or newspaper, is really encouraging some form of trial by journalism.
I will, however, deal with three of the specific points which my noble friend raised. He asked particularly about the meeting on February 15, and how it was that Mr. Murray knew that a meeting was to take place on that date. My understanding is that there was no secret about when this Committee met; it was generally known. And, indeed, it was not unusual for interested journalists to be around the meeting place to pick up some unconsidered trifle when those meetings took place.
Similarly., my noble friend made reference to the import of boned chilled meat, and he seemed to think that there was some great insight or secret information which led Mr. Murray to deal with the situation in that way. But here, again, there is no mystery about the matter. For eighteen months now there has been talk about the possibility of some control of the import of meat in this way, and it does not require a highly-skilled journalist to draw the conclusion that this subject is a likely candidate for inclusion in the Report. I must say to my noble friend that I was rather surprised at the conclusions which he seemed prepared to draw from the article about the position of Mr. Henry Plumb. Although he said that his conclusions were being couched in an interrogatory form he put them in such a way as to make them seem to most hearers to be positive assertions.
LORD ROYLE: I hesitate to interrupt my noble friend, but, quite quickly, may I point out to him that he is being rather unfair to me. I quoted:
"The draft Report on foot-and-mouth disease of the Northumberland Committee recommends…"
It is not, "we hear that it recommends", but, "it recommends". Where does the information come from?
LORD BESWICK: Why should I be placed in the position of having to say where the information comes front, if a journalist chooses to put that in a journal? I am surprised at my noble friend, if he is suggesting that he can quote anything from any journal and expect that there should be some denial or confirmation by a member of the Government. As 11 was saying, my noble friend

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appears to be saying that Mr. Plumb has swayed not only the noble Duke, the Chairman of the Committee, but the whole of the rest of the members of the Committee to a particular conclusion, presumably against their better judgment.
LORD ROYLE: The article said that.
LORD BESWICK: I am not saying anything at all about what the article says. I am referring to what my noble friend has said. He was asking for a repudiation of this. Why should one repudiate such an absurd suggestion, that one member of a Committee of eight, a very high-powered Committee, could dominate that Committee in this way? I really do not feel that, on reflection, my noble friend will think that this is what has happened in the case of this Committee, of which the noble Duke, the Duke of Northumberland, is the Chairman. Moreover, I say this to my noble friend. There is absolutely no reason to believe, or for anyone to say, that Mr. Plumb is anything other than one effective loyal and conscientious member among a Committee of eight.
I make just one other comment about this article. It purports to know that at one time Mr. Plumb was proposing to produce a Minority Report. There is only one man who knows what was in the mind of Mr. Plumb, and that is Mr. Plumb himself. He has asked me to say that at no time has he discussed with the author of this article what he proposed or did not propose to recommend, and there is no justification for any journalist setting down in this way what Mr. Plumb's intentions were.
Like my noble friend, we all look forward to the eventual publication of this important Report. I hope that, on reflection, my noble friend will agree with the rest of us that the recommendations that this independent Committee will eventually put before the Minister will command the highest possible respect.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I should like to regret that I have not the right to reply.

N.A.T.O., FRANCE AND THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
7.45 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN LORD GLADWYN rose to ask Her Majesty's Government, whether in the light of recent Anglo-French exchanges and the apparent desire of the French Government to liquidate NATO and to replace the E.E.C. by an association of entirely independent States, they will now promote the gradual establishment within the Atlantic Alliance of more forward-looking and democratic European Institutions.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put down this Question in order, if possible, to permit a short debate on the situation arising in Europe as a result of what is known, I think rather unfairly, as the "Soames affair". In spite of the lateness of the hour, I persist in asking it because I believe that the inflexibility of our arrangements is such that it is impossible to get any discussion of this, after all, important matter in your Lordships' House at a reasonable hour—that is to say, before 7 or 8 o'clock in the evening —for about another month.
I do not want to go into the details of this remarkable incident, except to say that in my view—though, frankly, I do not know whether I speak for my colleagues—the Government were right to communicate to our Allies the gist of what President de Gaulle said to the Ambassador. Criticism of how and why they did this may or may not be justified, but the decision which produced the explosion in the Elysée and, consequently, the new situation, was the decision to pass the information on. I seek to explain, as I see it, why the Government were right to risk such an explosion. I am sure that they did it with their eyes open.
Why did it create a new situation? It was not because there was anything very new in what the General actually said. As I describe in my forthcoming book on this subject—
LORD ST. OSWALD: Price? Publisher?
LORD GLADWYN: May I ask your Lordships to read it? We have known for many years, both from his public

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and private utterances, that the General thinks there should preferably be what he calls a European "Confederation"; that is to say, a simple association of entirely sovereign States, totally independent of America, from the territory of which Confederation the Americans would be requested to remove their armed forces.
If all this were accomplished, it would naturally involve a general repudiation of the Treaties of Rome and the break-up of the European Economic Community, in its existing form at any rate, and the liquidation of NATO, without which the North Atlantic Alliance would be an empty shell, since the Treaty itself contains nothing which obliges any member to go to war in support of any other nation. We also knew that the General had scant regard for smaller countries, and, therefore, it was not at all out of character that he should propose what I think is no longer referred to as a "Directorate", but probably as an "Inner Council" of the four larger Powers, which, so we must understand, would take the place of the Western European Union, even if the obligations of the Germans under this organisation were somehow maintained. No doubt the Western European Assembly, to which we know the General has a certain aversion, would also disappear.
Finally, the idea that the European Economic Community should be converted into what he calls a free trade area is something which, again for years and years, we have heard the General say was "inevitable" if Britain and the other applicants were admitted. Now he suggests—and here, my Lords, is the new situation—that it might even be a good thing if it were so converted now or soon. Owing to his persistent and partly successful efforts over the last ten years to emasculate the existing Community, this, we may think, is not altogether surprising. But at this point we should perhaps consider certain possibilities before, with shouts of joy, we join the British Gaullists in applauding, irrespective of all the other stumbling blocks, this one suggestion for positive negotiations with the Government of France.
In the first place, it is most unlikely that if we ever had such negotiations and
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got down to hard bargaining the General would he able to arrange for the European Economic Community to negotiate with the European Free Trade Area and thus, as it were, commit a sort of elegant hara-kiri, after which something like the present European Free Trade Association would spread over most of Western Europe. It is much more likely that, having got preliminary agreement that no duties or restrictions should be imposed on imports into the United Kingdom of French and indeed other Europear agricultural products, he would suggest, as he suggests now, in defiance of GATT (the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) some abatement of Community duties on certain British industrial exports, with the resultant agreement constituting—I am sure that this is what he is really aiming at—a sort of British association with the Common Market which had by that time been reduced to a kind of embryonic Customs Union.
Thus we should, as I see it, be in the position of having to cut down our food imports from New Zealand and Australia, and possibly also from Canada, with certainly no net advantage to our industrial exports; while the political advantage would be infinitely less than it would be if we actually joined the European Economic Community, since membership of the famous Four-Power Inner Council or Directorate (or whatever it is called), in which the veto, I need hardly say, would apply, would not result, economically weakened as we should be, in our having any particular influence on the course of events. These events would be, I am afraid, much more likely to be determined by an effective French leadership, largely exercised through some enduring Anglo-French-German alliance. L' A iifgeterre, I can assure your Lordships, would he a very poor relation indeed.
Some noble Lords may not agree, but I myself do not see, therefore, how any British Government, of whatever complexion, could for a moment contemplate accepting any one of the conditions proposed by de Gaulle as the basis for some new deal Europe. Quite apart from the catastrophic effect on our most sure and trusted European allies if we even listened to such suggestions, it must he obvious that acceptance of them would cut us off from America, liquidate what remains of the Commonwealth and reduce us to a state of penury and impotence,

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and we might even in the long run risk becoming, along with other European States, a kind of satellite of the Soviet Union.
But before considering what we might do next and what our general European policy should now be, let us just for a moment discern a little ray of hope that might even brighten up the whole landscape in the not too far distant future. Why indeed did the General feel impelled—because, in spite of the apparent approach of the Ambassador to the Elysée there is little doubt that he did feel impelled—to try to come to some kind of arrangement with the British? No one, no one on the Continent at any rate, doubts that this was chiefly because the "events", as they are called, of last May and their monetary sequel last September, together with the occupation of Czechoslovakia by the Russians in August, have made it impossible to pursue his previous, dreadful, policy of gradually achieving a European construction without us and thus, presumably, under French leadership, the object of which was to produce, as we all know, a détente based essentially on Franco-Soviet co-operation.
But if this concept—and an illusory one in any case, as we may think —has vanished, then all Frenchmen must scent danger. If they are really left alone with Germany, how are they to continue to be the tail which up till now has wagged this large and rather formidable dog? Nobody blames the Germans for becoming strong economically. They certainly deserve their success. Nobody thinks that the Bonn Government is anything but profoundly democratic. But, however innocent their intentions, it seems likely that in relation to France the Western Germans will get stronger and stronger.
Incidentally—or, rather, more than incidentally, because it is an important point—the date for the re-negotiation of the agricultural arrangements among the Six approaches. Thus, it will probably become clear that the Germans are simply not prepared to go on producing the really colossal sums which they now have to pay into the agricultural fund for the principal benefit of France. More and more they are thus likely to dominate the present European Econo
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mic Community, always supposing that it continues to exist, and it would of course require a great effort to disentangle it. So in their bones a great many French are coining round to think that, paradoxically perhaps, Europe would be a much less chilly place with L'Angléterre. Even if they realise that, given their Chief's attitude, there is no chance, at the moment, of resuming negotiations for Britain's entry into the Community, they might be prepared to put pressure on the General to consider some rather more acceptable approach to political unity.
"If the French Government"—
said Mr. Stewart on February 24 in another place—
"were proposing some very considerable changes in the whole nature of the European Communities, whatever one might think about them they were clearly ideas which should be discussed by all those who were concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, C. 1094.]
Well said! We might indeed have one day what has been called a new Messina conference, perhaps with French participation.
Therefore, if this first feeler is rejected, as it had to be for the reasons I have given, it is by no means the end of the affair. Efforts to till the breach between our two countries must and will continue, but it must be made quite clear that this breach can be filled only in the context of a greater whole. How can this best be done? As I see it, by concentrating on projects which may not for the moment be acceptable to the General, but which more and more would seem good and reasonable to the other countries concerned, including our own—I am thinking of this country as a whole—and indeed to wide sections of opinion in France itself.
In other words, it is we, after ten years, who now, if we care to use it, have the power of initiative. The Parisian newspaper L'Express came out recently with the headline, "L'Angleterre dit, 'Non' á de Gaulle". The effect, indeed, on the other side of the Channel, where I was at the time—I do not myself of course think that the analogy is correct; I am speaking only of the effect produced on the French mind—was almost as if a rabbit had bitten a stoat! Even the ordinary Frenchman can now perceive that something has changed and that his President

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can no longer simply order people about. This new assessment of L'Angleterre will probably have very considerable repercussions.
It used to be said that the only way to achieve political unity in Europe was to get economic unity going first. However true this dictum, it has been vitiated, as we all know, by de Gaulle's double veto on our entry into the Community in pursuit of political objectives that have now been shown to be unobtainable. Owing to this delay efforts to join up the Six and the Seven economically will undoubtedly take much longer than we had previously hoped, though I have no doubt, as I say, that once the political climate improves negotiations to that end will be promptly resumed.
How then do we improve the political climate? Here, as it seems to me, is where Her Majesty's Government, if they would, could really make some running. Why should General de Gaulle have a monopoly of great thoughts about the future political organisation of Europe? There is no reason why we should not have great, and perhaps rather more practicable, schemes as well. And, strangely enough, it might well be less difficult to get going on political and defence projects, rather than on economic ones. To borrow the classic phrase of the General, "L'intendance suivra"—the services will come along.
It has been said so often that it can profitably be said again. In all the vast spheres not covered by the Treaty of Rome—that is to say, broadly speaking, foreign policy, defence and technical developments in such matters as space, electronics and so on—rapid progress towards greater unity can be made only if certain simple principles are accepted, and they need not frighten anybody. All you have to do is to get all concerned to agree that, in certain limited and specified spheres to start off with, some Authority shall be established which, in the last resort, and when all established procedures have been utilised, shall take decisions by some form of "weighted" majority voting.
Did not Mr. Stewart himself say, in answer to questions on the "Soames affair" on February 24 in another place, that,
"none of us can accept a position in which France tries to put a veto on all progress in
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Europe"?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 24/2/69, col. 1089.]
If this statement is to be taken at its face value—and we must assume that it must be—then, logically, we can only favour a system in which no State, in the last resort, has a right of veto. Why single out France? And if this is indeed our belief, why not come out with some scheme or schemes embodying, in some of the fields outside the Treaty of Rome, the essential feature of weighted, or "qualified", voting?
Nor should that be all. Detailed plans for the operation of independent political and defence commissions— no doubt with advisory powers only to start with, but with the right to be consulted by Ministers and with the duty of considering all problems from the point of view of the group as a whole—could at least be circulated for discussion with any Governments interested. This is not a starry-eyed proposal, I assure your Lordships. It has already been worked out in considerable detail and is supported not only by the Western European Assembly which comprises hard-headed politicians, and the European movement, but also by a number of French deputies. Even some Gaullists, I think I am right in saying, would see some merit in the idea.
Finally, in any proposals which we might canvass there must be an important role for such a body. Personally, I do not think that Her Majesty's Government, any more than any of the other Governments concerned, would be likely to favour direct elections to such a Parliament. at any rate for a considerable time. But we could certainly indicate how a European Parliament, even if nominated, could exercise real powers of supervision in any new European Community that might now be discussed.
All I am really saying is this. Europe is moving. It is essential for us as a nation to make up our minds in which direction we want her to move. If, consciously or unconsciously, we favour the nationalist or Gaullist line, there is no hope at all for European unity and. as I think, small prospect of improving the political and economic position of these Islands. If, on the other hand, we favour the "no veto" or "Community" approach—no doubt in fields outside the Treaty of Rome, to start off—then we should formulate our ideas and canvass

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them with all friendly Governments, including—and why not?—the French. Failure to do so will inevitably give rise to the suspicion that what we secretly favour is, after all, some kind of nationalistic solution, and if there were the slightest truth in this—I do not think there is—what are we quarrelling about with the General? His thesis is, after all, quite logical, given his disastrous premise.
So, greatly daring, I suggest that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary should, first of all, clear the main lines of a new and constructive plan with their colleagues, and then invite the excellent French Ambassador to a meal, for the purpose of explaining at length to M. de Courcel the many attractions of the scheme, together with a request for comments. There is no need for any misunderstanding: the essentials of the plan would be handed to the Ambassador in the form of an aide memoire in accordance with normal diplomatic custom; no need to worry about leakages, since a copy would also be sent for comments to all our other allies. Why not? The whole idea would be not to isolate France or to force our way into the Common Market over her dead body, but rather to contemplate new and democratic methods of coming together in fields outside the Treaty of Rome, by methods which would gradually eliminate that veto which Mr. Stewart has so properly condemned.
If it were found that the plan represented a large consensus of opinion—and it would, of course, be some time before this were forthcoming—then a conference to consider the proposals could be held. It need not be summoned by us. Perhaps by agreement, some smaller Power could take this initiative. France would be invited and might well attend, and, if she did not, it would simply be a case of the absent being always in the wrong. If a conference without the French was successful, then a determined effort would be made to sell the resulting scheme to the French, and perhaps a second negotiation might then follow. If all these efforts failed and the French Government had nothing whatever to do with the scheme, it would have to be decided whether to put it into operation without them. This would be a grave decision which would have to be carefully con
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sidered in the light of all developments, including the highly regrettable possibility of the French withdrawal from the European Economic Community.
Whatever happens, and whether or not progress in this direction is immediately possible, those who had produced and subscribed to the scheme should never falter in their insistence on the no-veto principle. That is the key. If we lose it we are lost. If we hold on to it we shall not for much longer be knocking at Europe's door, because we shall be able to open it. In any case, if we get bored with Europe and try to knock on America's door, we shall certainly be knocking for much longer, if not indefinitely; and where, my Lords, would be the key?
So while congratulating the Government on what they have done so far, I urge them once again to have the courage of what I have gradually come to believe are their sincere convictions, and shortly to come out with some plan—some fundamental thoughts— about how best to organise a really democratic Europe.
8.9 p.m.
EARL, JELLICOE: My Lords, on general grounds I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, persisted with his Unstarred Question this evening. I hope it means that his forthcoming book, which we await with impatience and which we shall all read with pleasure, will go to the "top of the pops" very quickly indeed. But, more seriously, it was clearly desirable that your Lordships should have an opportunity of debating our national stance towards Europe, in the light of the depression which has recently settled over Anglo-French relations. I have said that on general grounds I am glad that the noble Lord persisted with his Unstarred Question. But on personal grounds I must confess that I am a little less glad, because before his Unstarred Question went down on the Order Paper I took on a commitment which I judge to be inescapable. That means that I shall be breaking a rule which I have never before broken in your Lordships' House, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, will acquit me of any discourtesy if I am not here to listen to his winding-up speech. It is a commitment I cannot escape. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, did not hold an inquest on the immediate past, and in that I am sure that he is right, since the

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future of Anglo-French relations and the future of Britain's relationship with Europe is far more important than the sorry events of the last few weeks. However, since he has been inclined to condone, unlike his late leader in another place, Mr. Grimond, the Government's handling of this difficult problem, and since I take a very different view from the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, about that aspect of the matter, I feel that I must dwell, if only briefly, on those sorry events. The French have christened this incident "l'affaire Soames" and we seem to be following their example. I believe, with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that this is a complete misnomer. It does an injustice to our able, articulate and pretty formidable Ambassador in Paris. More properly it should be called "l'affaire Quai d'Orsay—Foreign Office", and perhaps in the footnotes of history it may eventually go down as "l'affaire Wilson".
I am not one of those who automatically believes that if something goes wrong in our relationships the British Government of the day, of whatever political complexion, is necessarily to blame; and in this case I am more than willing to accept a very substantial part of the Government's account of what transpired. I am sure that the Foreign Office received a faithful account from Mr. Soames of his fateful conversation with the General early in February. I am sure that the Government's cautious reaction to the General's proposition was warranted. I also sympathise with their desire to communicate at least the gist of what the General said to our close partners in Western Europe and indeed the United States of America. Likewise, I do not question their assertion that the version communicated was in fact substantially that received from our Ambassador in Paris.
At that stage I find one aspect of the Government's conduct in this affair hard to understand and indeed impossible to defend. It was quite clear that the French Head of State was talking in confidence to our Ambassador, and that being so I hold that the decision to communicate the gist of these talks to the other five Governments and to the American Government without the French Government being informed beforehand, let alone approving, incomprehensible
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and indefensible. Despite the Foreign Secretary's determined stonewalling in the other place the other day, I find this hard to understand, because Sir Alec Douglas-Home pointed out in another place last week that we had a perfectly simple alternative open to us; the springs of diplomacy had not run dry. General de Gaulle was, in my view at least, saying something that was not altogether novel; he had made statements of this sort to many people beforehand, and I cannot myself see why days were lost while this was shuffled round the corridors of Whitehall.
I cannot myself see why it was not possible for the Foreign Office to have gone straight back to Paris, presumably in a communication from Prime Minister to Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary to Foreign Secretary, making it clear that we had noted with interest the President's statement, but of course, as he would be well aware, there was a considerable gulf between his position and our known position; that we shared his desire to try to find some more common ground as between neighbours, and that we should be delighted to continue the dialogue. At the same time, we could have made it perfectly plain that before embarking on further talks with the French Government we felt that our partners in Europe must be made generally aware of the gist of what had transpired, and before taking the dialogue further we would obviously need to agree with the French Government on ways and means by which those partners could be brought into the discussions, should they prove fruitful, the right moment. I believe that in some such way it could have been made perfectly clear in a perfectly friendly way that these were our prior conditions to the renewal of this particular dialogue.
As I understand it, we feared a leak or a trap. Perhaps, who knows, we were right to do so. But if the wily General was in fact setting a trap for us, the course of action I have suggested would have de-fused its consequences and we should have been entirely in the clear. I still find it very hard to comprehend why the Government did not take some such course of action and I still find their failure to do so, despite the explanations of the Foreign Secretary in another place, quite indefensible. I find it indefensible because not only has the course of action

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adopted by the Government put a full stop to an Anglo-French dialogue which just conceivably—I would not put it higher—might have been useful; more important, it has weakened the diplomatic credibility of the British Government of the day.
I find this a serious matter and I find the doctrine apparently enunciated by the Government in explanation of their handling of this affair bizarre. I find bizarre the doctrine that the judge of the confidentiality of a diplomatic confidence is the recipient of that confidence. I find that doctrine bizarre in the extreme. But enough of that. I shall read with interest the explanation of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. I doubt whether he can persuade me to alter my view of the Government's clumsy handling—I put it no higher—of this particular incident. But even if he cannot persuade me, I of course recognise that this incident, sad and sorry though I hold it to be, is more a symptom, albeit a very tragic one, rather than a root cause of the collapse of confidence between the British and French Governments to-day.
I think it would be idle to suppose that anything very spectacular can be done to lower the temperature of Anglo-French relations at the present time. But what we can do to improve those relations I hope that we will do. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that this situation has to be looked at in the wider context. But in the narrow context of Anglo-French relations I hope that we shall continue to remind ourselves that both countries have a very great deal at stake over a whole range of joint projects, and I hope that we shall put our hacks behind those projects. Dealing with the biggest of them, the Concorde, I have often been rather dismayed at the readiness of the British Press, and indeed the public, to crab this great project whenever they could. The French take a much more robust attitude to this particular matter, and I have felt at times that the Government's attitude towards it has been a bit ambivalent. I hope that this and other joint projects will receive our full support unless and until both partners are convinced and decide not to proceed with the particular one. I feel that this is something which is incumbent upon
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us and can help the future of Anglo-French relations over at least some area of the ground.
So much for the narrow question. What of the wider approach to Western Europe? Many of us on this side of the House, myself included, are quite sympathetic to the general approach which the Government have, so far as I can make out, been pursuing for the last year or so. We agree, too, that it is right to keep our application to join the European Economic Community on the table, up to date, and fresh before the European public.
In some respects, of course, I hold that our policy should go further. I personally believe that we should be wise, wherever it is possible and practicable, to adapt our own institutions so as to make eventual membership of the Community easier when the time comes, as I think it will come, for our application to be successful. I am thinking particulary of agricultural and taxation policies. Again, I do not dissent from the view that, if we are temporarily blocked by the French veto from membership of the Community, we should pursue the search for greater European unity in those areas which lie outside the Treaty of Rome; the areas which I think the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, mentioned—defence, technology and, indeed, political consultation.
Here—and this is really of crucial importance, if we are to convince our friends in Europe of our seriousness and stability of purpose—it is really important that we should practise, and be seen to practice, what we are preaching. I am not certain that we always do. I cite only two examples. In the field of defence, the maintenance of the Atlantic Alliance and of NATO must clearly remain the foundations of our policy. Nevertheless, I entirely agree with the Government, that it is right and sensible for the European partners in NATO to take a greater share of the defence burden, and to seek within the Atlantic Alliance some closer identity in defence matters.
But it is rather difficult to convince our partners that we are really serious about these matters when we allow our reserves to be depleted, when we make no provision whatsoever for home defence, and when our armed forces are faced, as they are now, with emaciation through manpower starvation. By the

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same token, I believe that the Government have been perfectly right to emphasise to our partners in Europe the absolute need for Europe to remain in the van of technological progress.
We shall be debating these matters in eight days' time on a Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Bessborough. Therefore, I should like to say this evening only that I believe the Government are serious about this question of European co-operation in science and technology, but that sometimes their actions, whether in relation to ELDO or whether in relation to the airbus—and I will not go into more instances—belie their words.
Finally, there is political consultation. I believe—and I think I part company with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn here —that we need to tread rather warily; perhaps rather more warily than Her Majesty's Government have done of late. As an old W.E.U. boy, a former member of the W.E.U. Assembly, I do not underestimate the importance of that body, and on one condition I am all in favour of its greater use. It is, after all, the only political structure in which we regularly meet, and in which we are able to consult not only the French but also their five partners in the European Economic Community.
However, just because it is of this special significance, I hold it all the more important that we should not place too great a strain on this institution—more strain than it may he capable of bearing. I think that in recent weeks we have gone close to the limits of what is possible. I am restraining myself from saying more, but I really feel we should be cautious here. In the last resort, if we place too great a strain upon this not very powerful structure, we are facing the Germans with an impossible choice; that is, a choice between the British or the French connection. I hope that some way out of the present W.E.U. imbroglio will be found.
I understand that the next Ministerial meeting is to be held at The Hague in May, and it is certainly my understanding that all seven W.E.U. Members agreed at Luxembourg that it was desirable to work out better procedures for consultation. This matter is likely to arise before the May meeting, and I should be very glad if the noble Lord, in his reply, was able to say something about the Government's
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expectations for that meeting of the Ministerial Council of W.E.U. in May.
In conclusion, I should only like to say this. Although I believe we should tread warily on this question of political consultation, especially in regard to the strain we place upon the W.E.U. structure, I do not think that this absolves us from thinking out our own ideas towards Europe; and in that I am in complete agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. But although there is no time to go into them this evening, I think I would dissent from some of his particular recipes. While the Government have shown great tactical initiative in the European field, what has rather worried me in recent months is that they have shown rather less initiative in the development of their own thinking towards Europe. We have backed the Harmel Plan and the Nenni Plan, but we have yet to produce a Stewart Plan or a Wilson Plan.
Here I very much go along with what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said. I believe that sooner or later—sooner, I hope—we are going to be faced with clear, if difficult, choices in Europe and it behoves us, in this period of attente, to think out our policies through the European thicket. Perhaps it would be wise for us, in certain circumstances, to opt for rather more radical and more daring solutions—and this is a criticism I would make of Governments of both Parties—than we have been prepared to advocate in the past.
8.27 p.m.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Lord. Lord Gladwyn, has both introduced his Unstarred Question and explained it, and for me he has produced some very new and interesting ideas. I speak not as a Common Market crusader, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. But I find myself in greater sympathy with the ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, than with those of the noble Earl. Many people in this country are interested in a healthy, united Europe, though I have not found that they are frantic about the economic machinery of the E.E.C. It is obvious that Britain, as a great trading country, is interested in a large free trade area and a large market. It is now six years

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since my husband died, and to-day I cannot help savouring the irony of the growing disillusion among members of the E.E.C. the realisation that the present institutions are not sacroscanct.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, will the noble Baroness not agree that it is not the institutions of the European Economic Community which are to blame, or which are at fault; it is the failure to apply them.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, I cannot say that I entirely agree with that, but I am prepared to examine it. I am, of course, appalled by General de Gaulle's cynicism and his proposal actually to jilt the E.E.C. After refusing to admit us into the Common Market for so long, he now comes up with a new and, according to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, very unsatisfactory set of ideas. Certainly the British Government were absolutely right to say, "No", loud and clear. To those people who kept wringing their hands—and here I include the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe—because for once we had rebuffed the General, I can only say that hitherto every time we turned the other cheek it has resulted in two slaps in the face.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I wonder whether I could just intervene for a moment. I am not necessarily opposed to rebuffing the General. What I am opposed to is a breach of confidence.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: I thank the noble Earl. I might have something to say about it later.
We should not exaggerate this business of bad Anglo-French relations, and I think that the noble Earl has exaggerated them. I do not intend to "chew the cud" of all the diplomatic tittle-tattle that has been churned out in the Press. It is, of course, in our interests that Europe should be stable and healthy. The future of Europe, whether as the E.E.C. or some other association which may be evolved, depends on the economic and social health of all the European countries, especially France, Germany and Britain. There is, of course, some danger that the Big Three will go on playing each other off, one against the other, while their internal situations deteriorate.
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I must stress that the fuss about the Franco-British quarrelling and General de Gaulle's posturing hides a certain danger. It is that this distracts attention from France's real economic and social problems. Everything I read and hear about the French situation to-day makes me think that the General is doing very little to strengthen the franc, or towards creating strong, democratic political institutions which will survive his death. Is it really so important to discover which Foreign Minister put his cards on the table and exactly on which day, when it is on the cards that the franc might be devalued at some future date?
General de Gaulle is quite shameless about changing his mind, and this is not always a bad thing to do. I suggest that at this moment the General would do better to try to be loyal to his true allies, even those he so strongly resented during the last World War. France has formidable domestic problems, and we, too, have our problems. The display of bad temper with the British has nothing to do with the realities of power. In fact, the French could take note of the rightness of our policies and what we are trying to do by concentrating on a healthy economy, a strong pound and a strong balance of payments, for these are the pre-conditions for an effective role overseas.
The General's actual proposals are quite frightening, theoretical as they are. We are asked to substitute the Atlantic Alliance—for what? We know that if we forgo the American nuclear umbrella now and put a European deterrent in its place, it would have to include a German nuclear bomb. I doubt if even the Germans are really enthusiastic about such a prospect. Of course one hopes that a Europe divided into East and West blocs will not persist for ever. One hopes that political changes will take place, working towards a real unity among all the European countries. Finally, returning to the recent Anglo-French exchanges, I think that the Government acted with courage and honesty, though in the field of diplomacy these two qualities do not always result in good public relations.
8.34 p.m.
LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGE: My Lords, I find myself in some difficulty in expressing an opinion on the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn,

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in part because I am not quite so certain what is meant by certain words in the Question. However, I feel an urge to make a few remarks in the light of recent Anglo-French exchanges. If, in other respects, I stray a little beyond the limits set by the noble Lord's Question, I hope that I shall receive the generosity of the House.
L' affaire Soames"—what a strange business it has been! Everyone is now very busy trying to play it down, to sweep it under the carpet, to suggest that it should be forgotten as quickly as possible. That is not surprising, because in my simple mind nobody has come out of this business with very much credit. However, the fact is that it has happened; it will not be forgotten. It will long be remembered as a milestone, if not a millstone, in the course of Anglo-French relations. As for the part played by the various participants in this strange business, there is no need for me to dwell too much on the part played by the General. He, we are told, offered us a great opportunity which we were foolish enough to ignore; we were told this again only yesterday by the French Foreign Minister in the Chamber. It is true that he appeared to offer the possibility of a dialogue between England and France. He went on to give his ideas as to the general lines which that dialogue should take and did so in terms which it will have been quite clear to him would be completely unacceptable to this country.
It is of more importance to examine the part played by our own representatives, by our Ambassador in Paris and our Government here in London. It is an important part of any Ambassador's job to work for the improvement of relations between his country and the country to which he is accredited, and it is clear that Mr. Soames has been doing precisely that. I said a short while ago that nobody comes out of this business with much credit, but the one man who must be excused from any serious criticism is the man who has been quite wrongly attached to this strange affair. He was invited to a private lunch, he went and he listened carefully to what was said to him, He wrote a report on it, and before sending that report to London he sent a copy to the Quai. As to whether or not the report was correct, we are entitled to
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assume, knowing what we do of the officials of the Quai, that if there had been anything seriously wrong with it they would have been on to our Ambassador within the hour. In fact, they were given eight days, so it is reasonable to assume that that report was generally a correct one.
What of the part played in London by the Secretary of State and the Government? One can well imagine the reaction in the Foreign Office when that telegram arrived from Paris. Anybody who knows the Foreign Office—and we have many distinguished representatives of it among our own numbers—knows that the Foreign Office does not at all like to be surprised by new ideas which it has not been expecting. Moreover, our Foreign Office has been subjected for years to the ruderies which they have had from Paris, and it is natural that they should find this proposal, if that is what it should be called, very objectionable and should treat it with discredit and suspicion. That is very natural. But in diplomatic affairs one must never allow one's feelings to influence one's decisions. One may make one's decisions logically and by the sheer exercise of such brains as one has, but one must not allow the feelings of the heart to enter into the matter at all.
In speaking of the Foreign Service and the Foreign Office, I should like to say that I have the highest respect for our diplomatic service. I do not know what advice they gave their Minister or Mr. Soames. I have an uncomfortable feeling that in this particular case they allowed their feelings to carry them rather too far. As to the part played by the Secretary of State, I read with great interest the account of the debate in another place on Tuesday of last week. I thought that the Secretary of State seemed to be rather too sensitive about some of the remarks that were made. He said that it appeared that
"honourable Members were desperately looking for something for which they could blame the Government".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 25/2/69, col. 1339.]
In the very unlikely event of the right honourable gentleman reading what I am saying to-night, I hope he will at least not make that accusation in his mind of me, for I am not in the least interested or looking for things for which I can blame the Government, but I in fact

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think that the handling of this affair has not been very happy. I largely agree with the criticisms made by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. There was apparently an opportunity to reopen the dialogue between England and France, and I feel that the opportunity should have been taken in some way. Of course, the proper precautions must be taken, and on no account should we commit ourselves to the sort of proposals of detail which the General was offering us.
Having said that, I should like to end by expressing one or two of my own feelings about the broader question raised by the final words in Lord Gladwyn's Question. He says that our objective in Europe should be
"the gradual establishment within the Atlantic alliance of more forward-looking and democratic European Institutions."
Those are very long words for me, and I do not know that I quite follow what he means by them; but one thing is very clear to me, and I feel no hesitation about saying it. It is that any European institution which is worth anything must include this country, Germany and France—and all without any reservations. Of that I am perfectly certain; and it should surely be the policy of this country to get the co-operation of Germany and of France towards that end. There should not be great difficulty about Germany, because Germany is still largely influenced by the doctrines preached by the late Konrad Adenauer, and, whatever criticisms may be made of Konrad Adenauer, it cannot be said that he was not a good European. If we want that co-operation, however, we must go about it in the right way, and it is no good going on talking about, "If they will not pay more for our troops we will take our troops away", and it is no good lecturing them about up-valuing the mark. That kind of thing will certainly not gain the co-operation of the Germans. We are not the only people who are apt to talk to the Germans as if they were second-class European citizens: I think they have heard something of the same sort from Paris, too.
As to our attitude towards France, my Lords, it is undoubtedly extremely irritating to be treated by the General as if we were an inferior nation. In the
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light of history it is extremely irritating, but we should not allow ourselves to be irritated. That is not the way to deal with foreign affairs. In our own difficulties we should not turn to France. We should not seek or expect any help from them. We are not likely to get it, anyway. We should solve our own difficulties, and that is what will make it easier to talk to the General. We all have friends in France. I was over there at the same time as Lord Gladwyn, when news of l' affaire Soames first broke; and I am going there on Thursday. We have many friends over there, all of us, and we rest content that our reputation with the Frenchmen who really mean anything is not going to be shaken by the antics of the General. We can look forward with content to retaining their respect and seeking their co-operation in the effort which we shall certainly make.
8.45 p.m.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, I fear that I shall be accused of starting on a rather sour note when I remark that there could be no better example of the painful inadequacy of the management of business in your Lordships' House than the circumstances of this debate. Since the debate on the Address, we have had no occasion on which we have had a chance to consider foreign affairs. This is at a time when the relations between this country and France are seriously strained; when there is an ominous crisis in Berlin; when the whole of the Eastern bloc has recently passed through a traumatic experience with the suppression of Dubcek's Czechoslovakia; when there is near war in the Middle East capable of setting alight half a continent; and when there is a new President in the United States, with new policies and new prospects for that super Power and our closest ally.
Yet, my Lords, we with difficulty appear to tear ourselves away from such engaging topics as female prostitution, the provision of contraceptives for dogs, the diseases of salmon, and homosexuality; from an Order Paper which is full of legislation of limited significance; and, after a debate about some alleged irregularity of procedure on the part of an obscure individual on an obscure committee dealing with an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease, to spend a few minutes on foreign affairs. No wonder,

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my Lords, that Parliament is an object of cynicism and contempt!
I am reminded of a passage in one of Disraeli's novels in which he makes one of his characters say:
"He is a man. He is thinking in real politics; foreign affairs; maintaining our power in Europe".
Nowadays your Lordships' House, with all its experience and intellectual ability, is cluttered up with the trivialities of administration and legislation unless some Member like Lord Gladwyn comes to our rescue with a Motion of importance, framed as a Question according to our curious custom, on a subject which should be the concern, and indeed is the concern, of every person who thinks about politics at the present time. It is therefore, my Lords, in no spirit of formality that I offer my thanks to Lord Gladwyn for introducing this debate on this subject at this time.
Let me begin by saying that so far as I personally am concerned I believe that there is every justification for the manner in which His Excellency the British Ambassador in Paris and the British Government handled the initiative which the French President attempted to take to detach Britain from the United States and from its friends in NATO and the W.E.U. It was clearly a clumsy and (if I may repeat the word used by the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell) cynical piece of diplomacy—if I may say so, well in character with the practice of the Fifth Republic. As seems to be the invariable rule with General de Gaulle's diplomacy, his initiative in fact produced exactly the opposite effect to that which he intended. For this we may be grateful, since it has helped, perhaps, in some degree, to condition British thinking about the future of Europe to accept some of the basic facts that have emerged as a result of our experience there during the last ten years and more.
These are, in my view, first, that owing to French policy the E.E.C. in its present form is not the institution upon which European unity can be securely based in the future; and, secondly, that unity must be developed through political and not economic co-operation alone. Thirdly, that the basis of that unity to-day should be a solid understanding between Britain and Germany and access between London and Bonn. There has, I submit,
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never been any reality in the Gaullist idea that the balance of power in Western Europe lay between Germany and France. However large may be France's gold resources or complicated her diplomacy, France to-day is the France of 1872, of 1917, of 1940. She is in the same position as she was on those previous occasions, an unstable element in Western Europe.
The extent of her weaknes3 was brutally illuminated by the collapse of last summer when the existing r6girne was nearly destroyed by a student uprising. The result of that weakness within France to-day is the exaggerated nationalism to which she is prone, a pathological assertiveness of which General de Gaulle is the contemporary expression. European unity cannot be created while a principal element in it—that is, France—is in an aggressively nationalist mood. There is no reason to suppose that if the General disappeared from the political scene to-morrow, Gaullism, or rather the psychology of the defeat of 1940 of which Gaullism is the expression, would disappear from France or that France would suddenly become internationally minded.
The policy of "Waiting for Godot" is just as fruitless for the British as for the French. Even if Mr. Heath became Prime Minister to-morrow, he would not be able to carry Britain into association with the E.E.C. on terms which the French would accept and demand. It may be that Mr. Heath and Mr. Rippon believe that the way to Europe lies through Paris. If they do, they wilt find, I think, that a diminishing number of Conservatives agree with them. Political and economic association linked to the North Atlantic system cannot be based on the existing E.E.C. and secured through a Franco-German alliance. Quite apart from the incompatibility of Gaullism, such a system, if it is to work, must contain its own balance-of-power mechanism. France is too weak to balance Germany. Only Britain in Western Europe is capable of doing that. This is true when for the first time since Germany became a unified country in Europe, the interests of both Britain and Germany are almost identical.
My Lords, it is not a matter of detaching Germany from France; the closer that Germany can keep to France the

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better. It means that parallel to, but separate from, the E.E.C. we should be seeking to construct in Western Europe a political system based upon close cooperation with Germany in the fields of political institutions, defence and technology, and to create a European attitude to regional problems outside Europe. The attempt to discuss the problems of the Middle East in W.E.U. was, I consider, a step in the right direction.
Our aim should not be to get into the E.E.C. through the back door of Western European Union, but to create with our friends a political association, with or without France, to which the E.E.C. might one day be linked. The key to achieving this, I submit, is an association with Germany. Old fears and hatreds (which I have shared all my life) must not be allowed to stand in the way of such an understanding. I believe that the time during which it will be possible to achieve this is limited. It may be that the emergence of exaggerated nationalism within France will infect Germany, or that Germany in five years' time will be so powerful that a political association with the rest of Europe, and with Great Britain in particular, will cease to have attractions to her public opinion. It may be that a new Government in Bonn after the next elections will be able to act more independently, more confidently, more imaginatively, than the present regime has been able to do.
For our part, I hope that we shall not be tempted simply to pick over the car-case of a dead policy, but to realise that for us the era of the E.E.C. has passed. I hope that whoever is Prime Minister in these next four or five years will lead Britain towards the Europe of the 'seventies, and not back towards the Europe of the 'fifties, the Europe of Adenauer, Schuman and de Gaspari. In the meantime, I hope that the Government will continue to seek a place for Britain in Europe which represents a better vision of the future than simply a stubborn determination to join the present E.E.C. at any cost.
8.57 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I should like to repeat what others of your Lordships have said in appreciation of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for ini-
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tiating our debate to-night. I should like also to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Alport, has said in very severe criticism of the arrangements of this House which require a debate of this importance to take place in answer to a second Unstarred Question at this time of night. I do not think that the noble Lord toe Leader of the House or our Chief Whip and its offices are entirely responsible for this state of affairs. I think it is partly ourselves. We have become accustomed in this House to ending our debates in the fairly early hours of the evening and because of that when we have an important debate of this kind there is a small House. I should like to make, if I may, to the noble Lord the Leader of the House, two suggestions; first, that it should be made clear to the House that our duties are now so wide that Members should expect to remain in this House to debate these matters for longer hours than we have done in the past; and second, that it should be considered whether we ought not to meet on Mondays as well as from Tuesdays to Thursdays.
My Lords, I endorse all that the noble Lord, Lord Alport, has said about the issues which have come before this House in recent weeks. I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, be cause in a similar way, through an Unstarred Question, I had to raise in this House the important issue of the war between Nigeria and Biafra. I hope that my words may lead those responsible to make such arrangements in this House as are necessary to its dignity and honour in treating such important issues.
My Lords, as my noble friend, Lord Chalfont, would expect, I shall to-night be putting forward a different, an independent, view from that of others who have taken part in this debate. But I know him well enough, his breadth of mind, his forward-looking attitude to our problems and his willingness to accept new ideas, to be perfectly sure that he will pay some consideration to the different approaches which I shall express. I want to begin by saying that I have no doubt whatsoever that the Government were absolutely correct in conveying to their allies the substance of what was said in the conversations between General de Gaulle and our Ambassador in Paris. It was our duty to those who were acting

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with us and who were concerned in those discussions. If Her Majesty's Government had not done so, there would have been the leakages which already had begun, and there would have been a sense among the Government's allies that some conspiracy was being carried on. The total effect on the disruption of the political mind of Europe would have been far deeper than it has been. Nevertheless, my Lords, I would say to Her Majesty's Government that I think the one mistake which they made in that connection was to inform France that they were going to convey to their allies what had happened only simultaneously with the visit of the Prime Minister to Berlin. In my view, they should have given France longer notice of that fact.
When I turn to the issues to be discussed to-night I wish to regret the stern and stiff line that has been taken with General de Gaulle and France in this debate. I do so because I do not believe that Her Majesty's Government are indestructably right and I do not believe that the French Government are indestructably wrong, take the view that the problems of Europe are far more complex than the attitudes of the two sides; and if I were asked to provide evidence of that I would refer to the speeches delivered in this debate, all denouncing France and General de Gaulle.
Note the difference between the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Alport. Lord Gladwyn laid down a definite pattern and plan for the solution of all these problems as if they were rigid and inflexible. Lord Alport suggested that the solution of the European problem was for Britain to get nearer to Western Germany and Bonn. My Lords, both those proposals should be discussed when we are engaged in the dialogue on the future of Europe. But these problems are so complex, not only between Britain and France; not only between France and Germany; not only between America and the Soviet Union, Italy and Scandinavia—all these problems are such that we should be entering a dialogue about them with open minds as to their ultimate solution, and recognising that each point of view has a contribution to make to the final decision.
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My Lords, in one sense the tone of our debate to-night has been obsolete. It has been made obsolete by the visit of President Nixon to Europe. I was depressed when President Nixon was elected to his high post. I did not think that I should have words of praise to say of him. But his inaugural speech as President, a magnificent declaration for peace in the world, and the atmosphere which he has created in Europe by his visits to the different European countries has changed the whole climate and has created an atmosphere in which we can begin to discuss these matters, not by anti-de Gaullism, not by anti-the Bonn Government; not by the self-righteousness Of thinking that British policy is absolutely correct, but in a dialogue of thinking out these problems anew and the best way in which they may be solved.
My Lords, may I take two suggestions which came from General de Gaulle in his recent discussions? In case there is any idea that I am a "fan" of General de Gaulle, let me say at once that had I been a citizen of France I should have voted against him. I am absolutely opposed to his authoritarian attitude in France, and I regret the extension of that authoritarianism to the relations between European nations.
But when one has said that, if we intend to approach these problems in a realistic way, trying to understand the attitudes of others, let us look at two of the actual proposals made by General de Gaulle. The first was that the association of European nations should be on the basis of confederation. I am not going to accept that as a final proposal, but what I do say is that the E.E.C., so far as it has operated, has failed to create in Europe either the institution or the spirit which can realise a European Community. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said that this was not a matter of its principles, but of their application or lack of application. He was right. But if we are to solve political problems between nations we must accept the mental attitudes and psychologies of the peoples who are involved in the solution which we are seeking. Much as I desire the ending of national sovereignties and the beginning of much wider associations, we have to face the fact that the peoples are not emotionally prepared. Look at

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Europe and ask whether the people of this country and the peoples of France, of West Germany and of Italy, are yet ready to sacrifice their national loyalties and aspirations to become a part of a complete European community? We must recognise that they are not.
This is not only a problem of Europe; it is one of the biggest political problems in the world today: how to associate national aspirations with wider combinations. It is the problem of Nigeria and Biafra, of Quebec and Canada, of Nagaland and India, of Anguilla and St. Kitt's. And this problem is not going to be solved by just laying down a pattern; it has to evolve, and, in the case of Europe, it has to evolve in dialogue between the different European countries.
The other thing I want to say is on the proposal which General de Gaulle has made for the ending of NATO. I would say that the conclusion of the conflict between West and East, between the United States of America and the Soviet Union, is probably the most important issue in the world to-day. We hope that, despite Czechoslovakia and Berlin, a detente is beginning which will enable the antagonism and ferocity which have divided West and East to be reduced. We hope that not merely President Nixon's visit to Europe but his visit to the Soviet Union will contribute towards that goal. I think it very likely indeed that we are moving to a situation where we can take bolder steps to end that division than we have in mind at this moment.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the dissolution of NATO before we have arrived at anything like a German settlement would be more likely to precipitate a Third World War than anything else?
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I do not accept that; but what I am going on to say will meet the point the noble Lord made. NATO is to be reviewed this year at the end of its 20-year period. The Communist Governments who are in the Warsaw Pact have publicly indicated at two Congresses that they are prepared to end the Warsaw Military Pact and they have suggested that in place of the division of Europe between NATO and the Warsaw Pact there should be a Euro-
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pean security pact, which would be an umbrella for all the nations in both West and East. It may be true that if a unilateral decision were reached for the ending of NATO, what the noble Lord has indicated may occur. That is not the proposal I am making.
LORD GLADWYN: No, my Lords; hut it is the proposal that General de Gaulle is making.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I am quite sure that it would not be the proposal which General de Gaulle would make if there were conversations in a practical way. The noble Lord has the right to disagree, but he also has the right to listen. What I am suggesting to my noble friends is this. General de Gaulle makes the proposal for the ending of NATO and we turn it down rigidly. I am suggesting that the correct response to that proposal should have been to go into dialogue and discussion with him about the problems of Europe and of East and West and to contribute our suggestion, if Her Majesty's Government would accept it, that mutually the NATO and Warsaw Pacts should be ended and that we should have in substitution a European security pact.
I conclude by saying this. The thing with which I was most impressed during the visit of President Nixon to Europe was what the Pope said to him in Rome. I am a humanist; I am not a member of any religious organisation; but I pay my tribute to the Head of the Catholic Church for what he said. These were his words:
"This is the mission which your great nation, Mr. President, along with other members of the international community, is called upon to fulfil: a mission of peace, a mission of noble-hearted collaboration with all peoples, and particularly with the developing peoples, in mutual esteem, with respect for fundamental freedoms of men and of nations, and in the promotion of genuine human values. All peoples are closely bound together, now more than ever before, in a common destiny, the great world-wide effort to build on solid foundations the earthly city in which each individual lives and works."
I believe that if we began to approach the problems of Europe and the problems of the world with those motives and in that kind of spirit we could solve our problems without the conflicts which are now taking place between the nations.
9.16 p.m.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords I should like to support very much what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said at the beginning of this debate, and also what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Alport, later on. Personally, I am glad that Her Majesty's Government are maintaining their demand for drawing closer to Europe, and also for entering the Common Market. I have no doubt that this is the best policy for us to pursue, although it is obviously going to be a long haul. I cannot imagine, looking back at the history of the last century and at the steady decline of Europe's influence and potentialities since the war, that we can afford to continue the sort of particularism, if I may use that phrase, of separate, egotistical, nationalist States in Europe, which has led us all into the present morass.
It follows, logically and in plain common sense, that we ought to favour some pulling together, some derogation of sovereignty, some common political and administrative institutions such as those of the Common Market. I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that we ought to seek to start a new dialogue which will throw into question what has already been achieved in the Treaty of Rome and in the other collective institutions which have been formed. I believe that to start a new dialogue which throws into doubt what has already been achieved plays into the hands of those who, whether they admit it or not, really want to destroy those institutions. I feel, on the contrary, that while a dialogue may be desirable, it should be based on how existing institutions can be improved and extended. In the world in which we live, and in the light of events in Czechoslovakia, NATO also seems to be absolutely essential for our survival as free nations and as free men.
Coming to General de Gaulle's propositions of February 4, I still cannot really understand why he wants to disrupt both the Common Market and NATO, and still less, indeed, why he should want us to propose such a thing. I really feel that his motives and methods are extremely suspect. Say we had done what General de Gaulle wanted and entered into secret talks with France about all this, what
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would have happened? Obviously, there would have been a leak in Paris: there always is—and there was one, anyway. Where should we have been then? We should have been in a pretty kettle of fish, and stinking fish at that. Our NATO Allies would have been horrified; our friends in EFTA and among the Six would have been deeply shocked at us.
Our Ambassador in Paris, who most wisely got the record of his conversation with General de Gaulle approved on February 8, seems to me to have handled this question quite admirably. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, said in this connection.
But what was our Prime Minister to say to Dr. Kiesinger in Bonn, when he went there on February 10? Mr. 'Wilson was no longer in any doubt as to what had been said to Mr. Soames. He knew the French had a Treaty with Germany, concluded in 1963, about the time when our Common Market negotiations broke down, by which each side promised to act in very close consultation with the other. If General de Gaulle kept his own treaties, then he should have told the Germans what he had said to Mr. Soames. Indeed, he ought to have told the Germans in advance. What would Dr. Kiesinger have thought of Mr. Wilson if he had not been frank and had suppressed all mention of such a vital French initiative on one of the very subjects that were to be under discussion? Would that have led to the establishment of a better Anglo-German understanding, such as we must have if we are one day to enter Europe successfully?
What a shocking pitfall Mr. Wilson and our Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs succeeded in avoiding—a pitfall for themselves and for the United Kingdom; a pitfall for NATO, which is due to be reviewed this year and where a reasonably good common understanding will be very necessary; a pitfall for the Common Market, for EFTA and for all forms of Atlantic and European co-operation. Of course, it could be said, and it has been said in this debate, noticeably by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that we ought to have informed the French before we informed the Germans. But I should like to point out that, if we had done that, the French might have objected and then we should have found ourselves in an even worse

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situation than we are in now. Therefore, I think that on balance the Government acted very wisely in acting as they did.
I prefer to believe that on the whole this was a major gaffe> on the French side, rather than a deliberate trap. But I am bound to say that French diplomacy very seldom drops bricks of such immense magnitude. Do not let us be put off now by a hit of defensive bluster on their side. One day, in my opinion, we shall enter Europe successfully, because in the years we live in nothing else makes political and economic sense. I hope we can meanwhile carry co-operation forward into wider spheres, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn.
I have twice said, "enter Europe successfully". By that I mean that we cannot enter Europe safely unless we put our economic house in order, and, in particular, unless we restore a state of law and order in our labour relations. I cannot, to my very deep regret, be here when your Lordships' House discusses this question on March 18, and as it is so germane to our relations with the new Europe I shall now say a word about it, even if for brevity I have to do it rather superficially.
The Government's White Paper, In Place of Strife, is much too weak, but it is in many respects a considerable improvement on the Donovan Report. The Government have kept this question under the carpet for much too long, and are now proposing to do much too little.
NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD HANKEY: But the vote in another place shows what courage Mrs. Castle must have needed to do what she has done. I earnestly hope that the Government will not be put off by that vote from doing what is plainly necessary. This country cannot afford to go on—
NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think the voices that were raised were querying what the noble Lord was saying about a subject which is not really before the House.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, has recognised in her speech, we cannot have a valid foreign policy or a valid defence
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policy, which was referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, unless our balance of payments and our economic policy are put in order. I urge that this question is germane to what we are discussing.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, with all respect to the House, I do not think we can really, on the basis of my Unstarred Question, go into the balance of payments or the social policies of this country.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I still wish to repeat that unless we put our economic house in order we cannot expect to have a valid European policy. Therefore I urge that this question is still germane. However, I will cut short my remarks on this subject because clearly it is getting late at night and we want to conclude this debate. If we go down the list of economic Powers in Europe, as will be clear from the latest O.E.C.D. statistics which your Lordships will find in the Printed Paper Office to-night, it is evident that we shall find it hard to enter Europe successfully, and I do not think we can safely enter Europe at all unless we put our affairs in much better order. To conclude my remarks, I earnestly hope that the Government will persist in their application to enter Europe, as well as with their incipient and tentative policy on industrial relations, without which other policies really cannot be successful.
9.26 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for giving us the opportunity to have this brief debate in your Lordships' House about our European policy. I agree that it is a late hour and a "thin" House, but nevertheless I think the debate has been worth while. I listened with some interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Alport, said about the fact that we are having this debate so late at night and in answer to a second Unstarred Question. I cannot go all the way with him in his strictures on the management of affairs here. I recognise his disenchantment and his deep feeling about this, but after all, as he said, foreign affairs are about our influence in the world and I think it should be said that

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some of the legislation which is necessarily discussed in your Lordships' House is about precisely the sort of influence that we shall wield in the world. Although I agree witth a very great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Alport said, we must concern ourselves here not only with the questions of the power we wield in the world but with the kind of people we are and the kind of society in which we live.
To return to Lord Gladwyn's Question, I was particularly interested to note the form in which he cast it. It seemed to suggest a concern with what happens in the future rather than with raking over what has happened in the past. This indeed turned out to be the theme of the noble Lord's speech, and although I cannot agree with everything that he has said about the way ahead, I am most grateful to him both for concentrating in his speech on the problems of the future and for his endorsement of the Government's action in our recent controversial dealings with France and our other European partners.
I have been pleased to find that the speeches in your Lordships' House reflect what I have found to be the general consensus among thinking people on this subject; namely, that the action of Her Majesty's Government in consulting our friends in Western European Union about proposals involving their interests and security, was right and proper. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, said that in diplomacy we should be careful not to pay too much attention to the feelings of the heart, but I know he will agree with me when I say that whatever may be the truth of that, it is essential in diplomacy always to take account of feelings of morality and of principle. Whatever our foreign policy may be and whatever tactics we may have to follow from time to time, there must in any civilised foreign policy be a thread of principle, and I believe we should have been guilty of deviousness, if not something worse, had we done anything else in this affair.
Therefore I propose—and I hope I shall not detain your Lordships too long—to follow the pattern that has been set in this debate. I shall deal briefly with some of the comments that have been made on the Government's part in what has been called, with trivial and pre-
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dictable irrelevance, "the Soames affair". Here I might take the opportunity to echo the remarks made by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in another place. Whatever criticisms may have been levelled at our Ambassador in Paris in certain sections of the foreign Press, I want to make it perfectly clear that Her Majesty's Government are in no way disposed to support those criticisms. The Government are fully satisfied with the way in which Mr. Soarnes handled this matter.
I should like to deal very briefly with the criticisms that were made, particularly by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. I am sorry he is not here to hear what I have to say in reply to him, but he explained to me as well as to your Lordships, and I know he has an engagement that I, for one, would not have wanted him to miss. But I must put on record my answers to the criticisms he made. One of the things he said was that it was a bizarre doctrine that the recipient should be the best judge of the confidentiality of any proposition or piece of information. I do not know whether I would entirely disagree with that, but I think what would be bizarre in the extreme would be the doctrine that it was open to any Government to go to another with proposals to talk to them on matters which might gravely affect the welfare of other countries and to bind them in advance not to tell the other countries about it. This would seem to me a very bizarre doctrine indeed.
It has been suggested in this debate and elsewhere that there was nothing new in what the General had to say, and indeed the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, wondered why such old proposals had been shuffled for so long around the corridors of Whitehall. But at the same time it was suggested that it was somehow a breach of confidence to discuss them. These seem to me to be two mutually incompatible propositions. Either these matters were new, in which case it was our duty to talk to our friends and allies about them, or they were not, and I fail to see how one can suggest at one and the same time both that the proposals were not new and that it was a breach of confidence to discuss them.
He went on to discuss the question whether we should have asked the French

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first to consent to discussion of this with our other friends in Western Europe, or that we should at least have told them we were going to do this. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said in another place, it is quite simply the fact that we handled the matter in this way because we do not believe it would have been right to put ourselves in a position where we were apparently asking the French for permission to inform our friends of something they had a perfect right to know. And I noted with interest and approval what the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, had to say about that.
The noble Earl also suggested, I think with a little more vigour than he meant, that these events had in some way put a stop to our talks with the French. This, of course, if it is so, is not the fault of Her Majesty's Government. We are ready at any time to talk to the French Government provided only that they understand exactly where we stand on the essentials of security and European unity. But none of us can accept the position in which France tries to put a veto on all progress in Europe, and none of us certainly can accept that issues of this magnitude which affect the future of our allies can possibly be settled without them.
I come now to a brief reference to the proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, in the latter part of his speech. He talked about the possibility of federal types of solution to European political problems. He talked of a European Parliament and weighted and qualified voting. All these are interesting propositions. But I must reiterate that our aim at the moment is full membership of the three European Communities. This remains our aim, and our application to become members remains in.
LORD GLADWYN: Would the noble Lord agree that that is not the only aim of Her Majesty's Government?
LORD CHALFONT: Yes, indeed, I would agree with that. Her Majesty's Government have many other aims, but in so far as the Common Market is concerned—and I will come on in a moment to look more closely at some of his propositions—we have always made it clear that we regard the enlarged Community
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as the best basis for European integration, going far beyond the economic field. We have always said that the Community is a dynamic thing which has already evolved and which will continue to evolve.
So far as the emergence of Europe as a community is concerned, we believe that Europe can emerge as an entity which can express its own point of view and, as a result, its influence in world affairs, and we have said right from the beginning that we shall play our full part in this process. As a member of the Community, when we become a member, we shall accept whatever responsibilities the Community may decide to assume, and we shall join as eagerly as any other member in creating new opportunities for the expression of European unity. But we cannot—and I agree with all that has been said about this—wait idly by until the French veto is lifted on our attempt to enter the Common Market.
I listened with interest to the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. His schemes were more ambitious, perhaps, than those he has heard put forward by others. However, I do ask him to believe that their implementation would depend for support on Governments on the Continent as well as on Her Majesty's Government. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, made a somewhat significant remark when he said, "All you have to do is to get everybody to agree". Yes, indeed.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, in the long run, of course. What I said was we might take an initiative—put forward at least some ideas of our own.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we have ideas of our own. They may not always agree entirely with his ideas, but we have examined this problem, and I agree with him when he says that the objective of all of us is a Europe speaking with a single voice and capable of having a proper influence on world affairs. But, as I say, although I cannot go all the way with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, in his proposals for a British initiative, I think it might be right to end my remarks this evening by very briefly outlining to your Lordships exactly how the Government believe we should go forward with our European policy. I hope

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the noble Lord will acquit us of the charge of not having any ideas, although, as I say, he may find they are not entirely the ideas that he himself has put forward.
First, we very much regret the damage that has been done to relations between ourselves and France in this recent episode. However, I think it is right to say that these relations have not been as cordial as they might be, and indeed as they should be, since the French Government applied its veto to our negotiations in November, 1967. It is important to realise that the relations between our two countries are not just a function of the day-to-day tactics of diplomacy and foreign policy; they spring from what is quite clearly a fundamental difference of opinion between ourselves and General de Gaulle about the future prosperity and security of Europe. It is also significant to say that so far as the other members of the Western European Union are concerned—and this also means by definition the other members of the Common Market—they seem to agree with us. So there is, in effect, a fundamental difference between General de Gaulle and the rest of Western Europe about the way we should go forward and the place we should make for ourselves in the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, hinted at the beginning of his speech that he might say things that a member of the Government would find difficult to accept. Let me say at once that I do not think his views and mine are as far apart as he may have feared. I agree with him entirely that in examining the future of Europe we must absorb, and examine with respect, new ideas. We must not let ourselves become fossilised by obsolete ideas of national sovereignty. I ask him to believe that although Europe is split, as it is at the moment, by ideological, political and economic differences, I share his fervent hope that that split will not last long. I ask him to believe that as long as it lasts we in this country, if we have any intelligent responsibility for the security of our people, must regard the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the Western Alliance as the cornerstone of our policy. We must, as the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has said, seek for a European identity in defence matters and in political matters, but it must be an
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identity four-square within the Atlantic Alliance.
That is why we rejected what I believe is the Gaullist thesis on the Atlantic Alliance and on NATO. Then we rejected also, but we have a different view of, the future development of the Communities and of the political framework of Europe. I have said that full membership remains our aim. Negotiations are blocked, but we must continue; and I believe that the way to go forward is to make progress towards integration where we can in fields outside the Community Treaties of Rome and Paris.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, does the noble Lord think that we can make substantial progress in those directions without the introduction of techniques, such as weighted majority voting?
LORD CHALFONT: Yes, my Lords, I believe that progress can be made, and I believe that it is already being made. It is being made through the steps which we have taken in the Western European Union. It has been achieved first of all through discussion. It first came to a head in the discussion in February of this year on the Harmel proposal, the idea that you should have consultation on political and other matters inside the framework of the W.E.U. As soon as that idea was put forward by the Belgian Foreign Minister and set out later in an Italian paper which covered these proposals, there was unanimous agreement on the need to improve these political consultations. Six delegations at the Luxembourg meeting agreed that before taking decisions on important foreign policy issues, they would undertake an obligation to consult so that they could harmonise their national positions. I believe that this is already a decisive step forward and the noble Lord, Lord Alport, was good enough to recognise it.
The first thing that happened was that we had a meeting of the W.E.U. Council on February 14 to discuss the Middle East in advance of the Four Power consultations. France was invited, and to our regret did not find it possible to attend. There was a useful discussion, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, not to close his mind on this matter, for there is progress to be made in this field as well as in the field of techniques and institutions which he mentioned. The

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Prime Minister's visit to Bonn was another step in the process of consultation. He had a thorough discussion of all the European issues with the Chancellor of the Federal Republic. After the meeting there was a joint declaration which confirmed the identity of views between us and the Federal Republic on European unity. The next steps are as follows—and there are a number of things which can be done and which are being done. There is the meeting of the Action Committee of the noted and distinguished European, Jean Monnet, which is to take place in London in a few clays' time. In April the President of the Italian Republic will pay a State visit to London. We shall continue, and indeed intensify, the consultations inside W.E.U. This will include, as one noble Lord suggested, the meeting of Ministers of the W.E.U. in The Hague in May.
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, spoke about putting a strain on the W.E.U. because it is a forum in which we speak to the French and to our other Allies. There can be not the slightest doubt that a Europe without France is as unthinkable as a Europe without Britain. It has been said before, and it will bear saying again, that so long as Britain and France are at odds the future of Europe will always be uncertain. This is a fact that has been proved over and over again in the past and will certainly be proved again in the future. But if anyone believes that the British Government—I think this was hinted at in at least one speech this evening—are trying to isolate France in our attempt to build a united Europe, then they will believe anything. So far, it is the French Government which has always chosen the solitary path. They
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have chosen it in NATO, they have chosen it in the European Economic Communities, and they have chosen it in the Western European Union. If France is isolated, it is because France has chosen to isolate herself.
I do not believe that these policies are in the interests of France or of Europe. Nor do I believe that they will persist for long. I think I can end in no better way than by assuring your Lordships' House that if at any time any move should come from France that seems to us designed to further the interests, the prosperity and the security of Europe as a whole, we shall be ready to discuss them with France in consultation with our friends and our allies. But we shall not, my Lords, I hope, ever make the fatal error of believing that we can buy worthwhile new friendships by betraying old ones.

PHOENIX ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.] WITHAM NAVIGATION COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Examiners' Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable have been complied with: Ordered to lie on the Table. Bills committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

BOURNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL DERBY CORPORATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at a quarter before ten o'clock.