Sitting of 3 July 1969

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Licence Fees (Evasion)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the widespread evasion of the payment of car radio licence fees; and what steps he intends to take to reduce such evasion.
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Postmaster-General what consideration is being given by his Department to requiring motorists with car radios to display on their cars a disc indicating that an up-to-date radio licence has been obtained, with a view to enabling the British Broadcasting Corporation to realise its full licence income; and if he will make a statement.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. John Stonehouse): I am aware of the widespread evasion, and I am considering a number of suggestions for dealing with the problem.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is it the case that the licence fee is being evaded and in respect of no few than 1,200,000 out of about 2 million car radios in service, and that the B.B.C. is losing £1 million a year as a consequence? What steps has my right hon. Friend in mind for immediate remedial action to solve the problem?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I cannot confirm the figures my hon. Friend quoted. My estimate shows that there are about 3 million sets in use and that there are about 2 million evaders. The problem is related to the anomaly that the licence fee does not have to be paid for a battery-operated set in a car whereas it must be paid for a radio installed in a car. I am examining the position.
    Mr. Morris: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the B.B.C. could be spared at least some of its present worries over retrenchment if it were enabled to realise its full income, and that it is a matter of urgency, in the interests of the millions of people who pay their licence fees, that we should seriously consider ways of dealing with the problem?
    Mr. Stonehouse: Yes, Sir. It is unfair to the great majority who pay their fees that a minority still get away with it. I am considering ways in which we can deal with this. There is a suggestion that the B.B.C. should receive the full hypothecated income. I think that there are grave objections to this proposal, but I am examining it.
    Mr. Bryan: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the House spent much time debating the Wireless Telegraphy Act, much of which was aimed at reducing licence evasion? Will he give us a situation report on the extent to which the evasion position has improved since the passing of the Act?
    Mr. Stonehouse: We have had a substantial success as regards T.V. sets. The number of fees paid has increased, and the number of evaders has been substantially reduced. I think we can say that that Act has been a great help to us in that job.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Postmaster-General if he will state the reasons for the delays in the provision of the necessary equipment and manpower to eliminate the avoidance of payment of radio and television licence fees.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The new detector cars were slightly held up because of last minute technical problems and some delays in delivery of parts from sub-contractors. There have been problems also in recruiting staff.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be a worthwhile investment to improve wages and conditions, for instance, to attract additional staff, since the B.B.C. estimates that it is losing £7½ million a year as a result of this kind of evasion? Might not it be made clear to magistrates that the maximum fine allowed by the House is £50 for the first offence, while the average

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    paid is £5, which is a gross misuse of their powers?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the last part of his supplementary question. As regards the first, I am considering ways in which the recruitment of staff can be increased, but I am now in a position to tell the House that I have decided to buy an additional 18 detector vans next year, which will help to improve the position.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will the right hon. Gentleman relate that additional provision of equipment and its capital cost to the huge loss of revenue in licence evasion which in an aggregation of television and radio licences now apparently runs to between £11 million and £12 million per annum?
    Mr. Stonehouse: Yes, Sir. It is something that I am examining, because I am concerned to eliminate evasion as far as can be achieved. I am sure that the steps we propose to take will move us a great deal in that direction.
    Mr. Bryan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the time we were considering the Wireless Telegraphy Act I did a tour of about five post offices, and that it was my impression that the collection of licence fees was very much a non-priority job in a post office? It came well down the list of priorities. Does not he consider that this question should be examined to see whether it would not be better to have a staff confined to this one task?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am considering this suggestion among the others that have been made to me, but I can assure the House that there is no question of the collection of this fee being given low priority in the work we do.
    Mr. Huntasked the Postmaster-General what is the current estimated number of television and radio licence evaders.
    Mrs. RenéeShort asked the Postmaster-General how many persons he estimates are now evading payment of the licence fee for television and radio receivers.
    Mr. Henigasked the Postmaster-General what is his latest estimate of the
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    number of persons evading payment of radio and television licences.
    Mr. Stonehouse: I estimate that there are 1·2 million television licence evaders. There are no reliable estimates of the number of sound licence evaders.
    Mr. Hunt: Is not this an alarming total of mean and selfish people in this country? Earlier the right hon. Gentleman said that he was proposing to bring 18 more detector cars into use. What will then be the total number of such cars in operation? Many of us feel that this is still the most effective form of persuasion in the matter.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The number of evaders has been substantially reduced. Without the provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, the loss could have been as much as £18 million, but it has been kept down to £7½ million following the Act. The number of detector vans will be increased by 18 to 38.
    Mrs. Renée Short: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if these people accepted their responsibilities there would be no talk about disbanding B.B.C. orchestras and depriving musicians of their livelihood? Will he consider making it obligatory for all people buying new television sets to produce a valid licence at the time of purchase and also request dealers to notify the Post Office of the people to whom sets have been sold, so that there would be immediately on record the names and addresses of those who have bought sets?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I do not believe that the fact that there is licence evasion obviates the need for the B.B.C. to have some economy in the way it does its job. I believe also that the Act gives us sufficient powers. We obtain the names and addresses of all those buying new sets, and this enables us to root out a lot of evasion.
    Mr. Henig: Parliament in its wisdom has voted to the B.B.C. the revenue from the licences on the assumption that everyone pays. If there is a shortfall of £7½ million, is it not grossly unfair that the B.B.C. should lose this money? Should not the full amount be handed over by the Government to the B.B.C. with the Treasury being made responsible, as is the case with other taxes, for dealing with evasion?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I do not agree with that assumption. I do not think that it is guaranteed to the B.B.C. that it shall have the full income. But it is one of the proposals I am considering.

    Furness Area (Radio One Transmission)
    Mr. Boothasked the Postmaster-General when the transmission of Radio One will be extended to cover the Furness area.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): The extension of its services is primarily a matter for the B.B.C. but I understand that it has no immediate plans for extending the coverage of Radio One in the Furness area.
    Mr. Booth: Will my hon. Friend tell the B.B.C. to take the necessary steps to improve the reception of Radio One in the Furness area?
    Mr. Slater: The B.B.C. informs me that improvements are under consideration and that it has the needs of the area in mind.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Instead of extending Radio One, will the hon. Gentleman consider abolishing it, since it is no part of the public service to provide pop music, a function better undertaken by commercial concerns?
    Mr. Slater: The hon. and learned Gentleman is anticipating a later Question.

    Licence Fees (Deaf Persons)
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Postmaster-General if he will extend to the deaf the television licence fee concession which is now granted to the blind.
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, Sir.
    Mr. Ashley: While I am grateful for that helpful and comprehensive reply, is my right hon. Friend aware that although the blind and the deaf suffer equally from deprivation of sound or vision, he helps the blind but discriminates against the deaf?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware that both groups in the community suffer from a grave disability, but I think that the blind concession, which has been long standing, should not be withdrawn. I do not believe
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    that concessions in kind of this sort should be extended to other sections of the community.

    British Broadcasting Corporation (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Postmaster-General what steps he proposes to take to enable the British Broadcasting Corporation to combine solvency with high standards of public service broadcasting.
    Mr. Kenneth Bakerasked the Postmaster-General what proposals he has now received from the British Broadcasting Corporation about the future of the British Broadcasting Corporation's radio services; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Postmaster-General what discussions he has had with the British Broadcasting Corporation concerning the future financing of the corporation.
    Mr. Bostonasked the Postmaster-General what further consideration he has been giving to methods of financing the British Broadcasting Corporation.
    Mr. Bostonasked the Postmaster-General whether he has now received the British Broadcasting Corporation's proposals on the reorganisation of sound broadcasting.
    Mr. Leadbitterasked the Postmaster-General whether he has now received from the British Broadcasting Corporation its proposals for the reorganisation of sound broadcasting; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Henigasked the Postmaster-General what discussions he has now held with the British Broadcasting Corporation about the future of sound broadcasting.
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Postmaster-General if he has now completed his consideration as to the provision of a 24-hour radio service; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The B.B.C. will publish its proposals for the future of radio services next week. I prefer to await the

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    reactions of the public before making any statement.
    Mr. Ashley: Is my right bon Friend aware that the finances of the B.B.C. are grossly inadequate? Would he consider an annual review, which would ensure that inflation would be met automatically?
    Mr. Stonehouse: This is a helpful suggestion. I cannot give a commitment upon it, but I will consider it very seriously in the reviews now being conducted.
    Mr. Baker: Before the statement next week, would the Postmaster-General be prepared to comment on the rumours circulating that the B.B.C., to maintain its music programme and regional orchestras, is prepared, in order to deal with the financing of local radio, to take local commercial advertisements?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am not prepared to anticipate a statement. I am not proposing to make a statement next week. What I said was that I would make a statement after the B.B.C. had announced its proposals so that I could judge public reaction to them. I would want to give a week or so to get that reaction.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great public dissatisfaction surrounding the secrecy of these talks, which have led to considerable rumour and counter-rumour? Is he aware of the great importance of maintaining B.B.C. standards so that the music programme and others are not sacrificed to enable the B.B.C. to engage in local radio?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware that this subject has attracted a great deal of public interest. The House will be aware that the B.B.C. has a number of advisory councils which it has to consult. It would be wrong for it to have announced, its proposals to the public before these councils were consulted. I am very anxious that the B.B.C. standards, which are second to none in the world, shall be maintained.
    Mr. Boston: Would my right hon. Friend accept that the continuing and widespread concern for the future of B.B.C. Radio Three cannot be over-emphasised, and the proposal which has
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    been widely forecast in the Press, to stop transmitting this service on the medium wave and to confine it solely to v.h.f. would be a thoroughly retrograde step, tantamount to curtailing the service, and a step which would be quite unacceptable to music lovers inside and outside this House? Will he urge the B.B.C. not to take this step?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware of the concern about some of these proposals. I would ask my hon. Friend and the House to await the B.B.C. statement. I am sure that the B.B.C. would not want its music programme to be less effective than it is today.
    Mr. Leadbitter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Director General, Mr. Charles Curran, is to appear on the Third Programme to answer questions on 15th July? Is he aware that this will hardly satisfy a number of people who are discontented about the manner in which the advisory councils were brought before the corporation, on the strictest confidentiality, in this matter? Does he not realise that a meeting of this kind is highly important in the public interest, and that information about the changes that are discussed should be made available?
    Mr. Stonehouse: The information is being made available. The B.B.C. is consulting its advisory councils and all others concerned. It proposes to make a statement about its proposals next week. There would have been many complaints if the B.B.C. had rushed its proposals before the public before such consultations.
    Mr. Henig: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the B.B.C. dropped the public service concept which has guided it for so long there would, unfortunately, be no real case against commercial radio? Would he not agree that if the B.B.C. is over-stretched in relation to its present resources, the better course would be for it to abolish Radio One and for this House to re-legalise chains of islands with pirate pop outside our coasts?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am sure that the B.B.C. is very well aware of its public service responsibility. A week or so ago I had the opportunity to meet the members of the full board, and I was very impressed with their approach to their

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    responsibilities. I am not attracted by the later extravagant idea put forward in the supplementary question.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as has been mentioned frequently in the House, the most dreaded companion of the old, the sick and the feeble in the early hours of the morning is loneliness, and will this view be conveyed to the B.B.C. before it makes an announcement next week?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am sure that the B.B.C. is taking into account the need to satisfy the interests of all sections of the community.
    Mr. Bryan: Will the Postmaster-General undertake to make his statement to the House before he makes a statement to the country on television or by other means? Has he brought to the attention of the B.B.C. Motion 337, which has been signed by more than a hundred Members of Parliament on both sides of the House, and which expresses the concern of the House at any loss in quality or quantity of the music programme?
    Mr. Stonehouse: It would be better if the House were to await the statement of the B.B.C.'s proposals. In reply to the second part of that question, I am aware of the great amount of interest which has been expressed in the retention of the music programme.
    Dr. Winstanley: Is not this subject of too great public significance to be dealt with either privately by the B.B.C. or sporadically in the House by means of the exchange of questions and answers? Will the Postmaster-General approach his right hon. Friend to arrange a full debate on the whole subject to ventilate public anxieties?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I welcome that suggestion. There will be an opportunity for debate in the House when the B.B.C. agreement comes up for discussion, and I have no doubt that an early debate can be arranged. I will consult my right hon. Friend about that.
    Mr. Whitaker: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the cost of concessionary licences should be borne by the welfare authorities and not by the B.B.C.? Is he also aware that many hon. Members on both sides of the House wish
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    such facilities to be extended to the deaf and the severely disabled?
    Mr. Stonehouse: This is a very complex question. Concessionary rebates of this character can be subject to evasion. Although such concessions superficially appear to be attractive, I must warn the House that there are some grave objections to them, and I do not think that we should rush down this road without due consideration.

    Local Government Elections (Broadcasting)
    Mr. Eadieasked the Postmaster-General if he will introduce legislation to enable him to issue directions to the broadcasting authorities about the types of programme to be shown on days when local government elections are held.
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, Sir. The content of programmes is the responsibility of the B.B.C. and of the I.T.A.
    Mr. Eadie: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that sporting associations take steps to see that television bans are imposed because attendances at various functions are falling? Democracy is threatened because the percentage of votes at local elections is dropping. Should not this be examined?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware from my constituency of the effect this can have, but I do not think that my hon. Friend's suggestion is the way we should deal with this.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider inviting the B.B.C. to devote the evening to party political broadcasts, which would make sure that everyone would go to the poll?
    Mr. Stonehouse: That is a very amusing suggestion. I am sure that if the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) were appearing the audience would be almost nil. I think that the B.B.C. will take note of these suggestions.

    Licence Fees (Cheshire Homes)
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Postmaster-General if he will extend the provisions of the Old Persons' Home Broadcast Receiving Licence Regulation to cover Cheshire Homes.
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, Sir.
    Mr. Gilmour: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that nearly all the residents of the Cheshire Homes, as well as others in old people's homes, are in very bad health and nearly all are badly incapacitated? Will he reconsider this totally inhuman and illogical decision?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware of the grave position of this particular group and I wish that we could do something to help them. But, as I said in reply to another Question, concessions of this sort are complex matters and we should not accept them at face value.

    Local Radio
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Postmaster-General if he will now make a statement on the review of the local radio experiment.
    Mr. Leadbitterasked the Postmaster-General what proposals he now has for the future of local radio as a result of his review of the existing experiment.
    Mr. Stonehouse: I will make a statement when this review has been completed.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Could the Postmaster-General clear up one point? Will this statement be made simultaneously with the B.B.C. statement next week, as it obviously will lead to a chaotic situation if the two do not match in the matter of time? Could we also be assured that there will be no bogus financial arrangements within the experiment?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I would ask the House to await the statement. I cannot give an assurance that the local radio statement will be made before the main review.
    Mr. Leadbitter: Will my right hon. Friend in making his statement not only consider the question of a full explanation of the finances involved but make some comment about the wavelengths to be used? Could he give some assurance that the question of regional broadcasting will be reviewed?
    Mr. Stonehouse: Yes, I can give that assurance. All those points will be dealt
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    with since they are all extremely important.
    Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the question of the B.B.C. looking into its own affairs and the question of the wider future of radio are two separate issues? Would it not be better if he were to make his own statement after the B.B.C. statement has been made?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I cannot give an assurance to the House on the timing, but we must take into account both problems before we make any final decision.

  POST OFFICE

    Christmas Postage Stamps
    Mr. Turtonasked the Postmaster-General whether he will include in this year's Christmas issue a 4d. stamp to encourage the sending of Christmas cards.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Yes, Sir. I have decided to alter the make-up of the Christmas, 1969, issue to include a 4d. stamp. The issue will still consist of three stamps, but the values will be 4d., 5d. and Is. 6d. The date of the issue will be Wednesday, 26th November.
    Mr. Turton: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept the fact that this decision will be welcomed, especially by the elderly people who set such store on sending Christmas cards?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that remark. We made this decision because we are anxious to ensure that everyone wishing to send Christmas cards by second-class post will be able to use Christmas commemorative stamps, and we are satisfied that there will be no operational objection to doing this.
    Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Will my right hon. Friend consider a 3d. postage for Christmas cards, on the lines I suggested last year'? As I predicted, the number of cards sent fell last year due to the increased postal charges.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The number of cards did fall, as I informed the House, but a 3d. rate would be uneconomic and I could not entertain it.

    Postal Code Markings
    Mr. Huntasked the Postmaster-General what percentage of letters destined for areas in which postal codes are in operation bear such code markings.
    Mr. Stonehouse: It varies from about 13 per cent. in areas recently coded to around 45 per cent. in areas where postcodes were introduced in the last two years.
    Mr. Hunt: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that fewer and fewer people are using these codes, first, apparently, because they feel that they do nothing to speed up the delivery of letters, and second, because of the chaos and confusion created in people's minds by this crazy mixture of letters and digits which the Post Office has inflicted upon us? Why is Britain, alone of all major countries, unable to produce an all-digit system which would work in a more straightforward and simple manner?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's claim that the number of people using the codes is falling. On the contrary, the use of the codes is going up and has reached a very high proportion in some areas. This is really the familiarisation period before postcodes are brought fully into use. We adopted an alphanumerical system because we considered that this was the best way to make the use of the codes more attractive to the users, and operationally it helps to make them more effective.
    Mr. Henig: If my right hon. Friend forecasts that the whole country will have these postal codes, and if he thinks in terms of directories of the codes in different parts of the country, what does the Post Office expect the total volume of space to be that will be required by the average individual if he is to have all the books on postcodes for the country? Where will he store them?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I do not believe that that will be much of a problem. Furthermore, as most postcodes will be advertised on the addresses of business houses and private correspondents will become fully aware of the postcodes of their addresses, the need for directories will not be as great as suggested.

    Harpenden (Postal Deliveries)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Postmaster-General what steps he is taking to improve postal deliveries in Harpenden.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: I am sorry that a shortage of postmen has caused delay to the first delivery and the cancellation of some second deliveries on occasions. We are doing our best to get more staff. With competition from other employers in the area this is difficult, and I cannot promise any immediate improvement.
    Mr. Allason: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that deliveries at 11 a.m. or noon are quite unsatisfactory for a first delivery? What steps is he taking to obtain more staff from outside? For example, has he approached the local council to allocate council houses for incoming postal staff?
    Mr. Slater: We are doing all we can to overcome the shortage. There is an establishment at Harpenden of 36 postmen and 3 part-timers. There are 14 vacancies. We are taking postmen from other areas to assist in Harpenden.

    Stoulton (Post Office Services)
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether he is aware that 28 pensioners, aged 65 to 83 years, many infirm and without supplementary pensions, are paying up to 5s. weekly, travelling by bus to Worcester and Pershore from their homes, due to the closure many months ago of the Stoulton Sub-Post Office; whether he will furnish mobile facilities to pay weekly at the pensioners' homes; and whether he will make a statement;
    (2) whether he is aware that the rural area of Stoulton, Worcestershire, has been deprived of post office services for many months, that facilities do not exist for purchase of stamps and postal orders since the closure of the sub-post office; whether he will now inaugurate mobile services to replace the sub-post office; and what temporary remedies he proposes to alleviate the inconvenience caused to Post Office customers in Stoulton.
    Mr. Stonehouse: A sub-post office will again be provided at Stoulton when a suitable sub-postmaster can be found. Meanwhile, stamps and postal orders may

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    be bought from the delivery postman and pensions may be collected by relatives or friends.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not easy in a widespread rural area to cause other people to collect pensions? As I have put my finger here on the fundamental case on behalf of a number of old-age pensioners, will he not take the initiative under one of two heads—either pay the pensions from mobile post office vans, such vans being available in the area, or cause local head postmasters to remit the pensions by post against appropriate vouchers?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am aware of the special problems in rural areas, and I will seriously consider the helpful suggestions which the hon. Gentleman has made.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: While it is not for the Opposition to advocate increased public expenditure, would not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful to elderly people in many other areas if mobile facilities could be made available?
    Mr. Stonehouse: Mobile facilities, unless they are temporary, can be extremely expensive. I would not want to give the impression that we can instal mobile post offices on a large scale. I think that the best way to provide the best service is by establishing suitable sub-offices where possible.

    Winchester (Postmark)
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Gilesasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has to abolish the Winchester postmark; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: None, Sir; but when in a year or two letters posted in Winchester are dealt with at our mechanised Southampton office the majority of them will bear a Southampton postmark.
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: So that answer is not "none"? It is intended to abolish the Winchester postmark?
    Mr. Slater: Yes, but there will be no depreciation in the standards of service as a result of the changes we have in mind.

    Franked Envelopes
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Postmaster-General if he will take steps to increase the computerisation of Post Office sorting by providing standard size envelopes already franked for 5d. and 4d. mail at the stamp cost of 5d. and 4d., respectively; and if he will estimate the annual demand for such envelopes and the cost to the Post Office of their introduction, allowing for the fall-off in the use of conventional stamps.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The majority of envelopes posted already conform to "Post Office Preferred" standards.
    The production cost of envelopes is much greater than that of stamps and it would be quite uneconomic not to charge for the stationery.
    Mr. Roberts: Does my right hon. Friend not feel that this cost-benefit equation is a bit over-simplified? Has he made allowance for the increased volume of letters, letters which are not now sent because a stamp is not available? Has he also allowed for the economies which would be achieved by a speeding-up of computerisation?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I agree that demand would be very large if the envelopes were provided free, but I do not think that the Post Office should go into such an uneconomic activity. I am now examining ways in which the sale of stamps can be improved. This is the way to deal with the question.

    Premium Savings Bonds
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the methods now used to inform winners at all levels of Premium Bond wins and to ensure prizes are claimed; what protection is given to £25,000 winners to protect them from undesirable publicity; and if he will take steps to improve the publicity for big prize-winners without identifying individuals, on a similar basis to that used by the pools for their X non-publicity winners.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: We write to all winners. In addition to Press publicity, we exhibit in all the larger post offices the winning numbers and a list of prizes unclaimed for 18 months or longer.

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    We take special precautions to keep secret the identity of all prize-winners. Valuable Press and broadcast publicity is obtained by releasing with the £25,000 winning number the name of the county or large town in which the winner lives. We could not widen this information without risk of identifying the winners.
    Mr. Roberts: Does my hon. Friend not agree that some further follow-up is required to find winners'? Could he tell the House how many winners have not been found and what is the sum of money involved? Does he not feel that some information about the sex, characteristics, and occupation of the winner might help to provide useful publicity and increase the volume of bonds bought?
    Mr. Slater: As to the first part of that question, out of a total of 5,285,858 prizes only 5,157, amounting to £148,075, remain unclaimed, but the work of tracing these goes on. As to partly identifying the winner by sex or trade, in my view this would increase the risk of the winner being fully identified, particularly in thinly-populated counties.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Can the hon. Gentleman say how long these unclaimed prizes are retained to the credit of the winners—indefinitely?
    Mr. Slater: The amount of money I have given to the House as being unclaimed is there and can still be claimed if people produce evidence.

    Pension Payments
    Mr. Liptonasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the inclusion of a £5 note in weekly pension payments is inconvenient to many retirement pensioners; and if he will arrange that adequate supplies of £1 notes are available at post offices for the payment of such pensions.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: Post offices normally have adequate supplies of £1 notes which are available on request to pensioners who prefer them to £5 notes.
    Mr. Lipton: Will my hon. Friend make sure that postmasters are told about this answer? Is he aware that old-age pensioners are subject to serious inconvenience by being given a £5 note when they are collecting their weekly pension?
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    They find it difficult to change the £5 note in the small shops in which they habitually make their small purchases.
    Mr. Slater: I have every sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. It is very rarely that this happens. This trouble should not arise, but if my hon. Friend will tell me of any case where this has happened, I will investigate it.

    Mail (Non-delivery)
    Mr. William Priceasked the Postmaster-General how many items a year cannot be delivered by the Post Office as a result of bad packing and addressing.
    Mr. Stonehouse: We do not keep records but we estimate 0·025 per cent. through poor packing and 0·005 per cent. badly addressed. The number is quite small because sorters go to great trouble to repack parcels and to find the right address for inadequately addressed items.
    Mr. Price: Is it not a sad fact that the Post Office will get the blame for the mail that is not delivered? Will the Postmaster-General continue his efforts to persuade people that if they do not address their mail properly they have "had" it and it is no use their abusing the Post Office?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I should not like to suggest that they had "had" it. We want to reduce the amount of mail which is badly addressed, and we do our best to achieve this by advertising the correct address which should be used.
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: To minimise confusion in addressing mail, will the Postmaster-General refrain from introducing 6-cypher code markings for towns whose names are spelt with three, four, five or six letters?
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, I think that the postcodes are being generally accepted, that they are convenient and that one day they will be operationally helpful to us.
    Mr. William Priceasked the Postmaster-General what percentage of letters get lost in the post.
    Mr. Stonehouse: 0·0008 per cent.
    Mr. Price: I thank the Minister for his most interesting answer. Would not he agree that, if industry and commerce,

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    which spend so much time abusing the Post Office, could match this degree of efficiency, that would really be something to boast about?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I agree entirely. The record of the Post Office is extremely good. There are isolated examples of mail going astray, but when only 94,407 items out of 11,500 million are reported lost in a year, I think the Post Office can claim some success.
    Mr. Bryan: Does not that figure relate only to letters reported lost? How does the Postmaster-General know how many are actually lost?
    Mr. Stonehouse: We are satisfied that this is a reliable account of the position.

    Giro
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Postmaster-General what is the limit of loss which he proposes to allow the Giro to incur.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The loss on Giro now being incurred was anticipated and expected in the launching of this new service.
    Mr. Ridley: Will the Postmaster-General say what it is? Is he aware that he is fooling about with public money? Will he say how much he has wasted and stop the Giro system when it gets too much into the red?
    Mr. Stonehouse: The House knows that the hon. Gentleman is opposed to the Giro. He knows the loss that has been incurred. It is £1·7 million in the last financial year, and a loss of £4 million is expected for the current financial year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] These amounts were anticipated, and are to be anticipated in the launching of a completely new cash transfer system. Certainly other private organisations like Barclaycard would expect to incur such substantial deficits in the first years when such a system is being produced.
    Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most people believe this to be a basically good scheme, but would he not agree that there is a need to look into the matter of allowing a certain amount of credit for overdraft at the end of each month, since this is a genuine problem which prevents many people from using Giro at present?
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, Sir. It is a cash transfer system, and it would be wrong for Giro to enter into overdraft facilities. It would make it an extremely complex system and would be subject to fraud.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: When will the service make a profit?
    Mr. Stonehouse: We are expecting to reach the break-even point in 1972.
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Postmaster-General if he will simplify the mode of opening a Giro account so that this can be swiftly and easily done across any post office counter.
    Mr. Stonehouse: It is very simple to open a Giro account already, but under new arrangements which I am introducing from 7th July a person will be able to send his initial deposit with his application form by post to the Giro centre.
    Mr. Hooley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although I welcome the system, having filled up my original form, I have now received altogether eight pieces of paper, a handbook containing 103 paragraphs of explanations, including one about what will happen if I drop dead, and a demand for 8s. 6d. for an even further batch of stationery?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I am glad my hon. Friend has discovered that the Giro centre sends out full information about Giro accounts. It is important that those who subscribe to it should fully understand the contractual provisions, but we are simplifying the application form to maximise the number of applications. I believe that the new system being introduced will have that effect.

    Second-Class Mail
    Mr. R. C. Mitchellasked the Postmaster-General what percentage of letters bearing a 4d. stamp is now being delivered three or more days after posting.
    Mr. Stonehouse: About 9 per cent.
    Mr. Mitchell: Are there any significant regional variations in those figures?
    Mr. Stonehouse: No, Sir. There are, of course, reasons relating to distance and the fact that some addressees are remote, which means that some second-class mail takes longer, but as between main towns there is no particular variation.
    Mr. Longden: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that our postal service is becoming such that it is no longer a question of when a letter gets there but a question of whether it gets there?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I completely reject that foolish suggestion. All our statistics show that our operational achievement has improved considerably, and we are providing the most reliable postal service in the world.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Winchester Exchange Extensions
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Gilesasked the Postmaster-General when the extensions to the Winchester Telephone Exchange will be completed.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: Provided the contractor maintains expected progress, by the end of 1969. I very much regret the inconvenience this is causing to the people who are waiting for telephones.
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: In February, the Postmaster-General said that the national figure was 86 per cent. of all applicants connected on demand. whereas some of my constituents still have to wait for a year. Can the hon. Gentleman say what steps have been taken since February to expedite matters?
    Mr. Slater: We put in an extra 400 lines in April, and will be putting in more, but the waiting list of subscribers for these extensions will, it is estimated, have risen to 600 by the time the extensions are completed. They should all be connected by the early 1970s. That is the progress so far.

    Cheltenham (Waiting List)
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Postmaster-General what is the capacity currently spare on the Cheltenham Telephone Exchange; in which areas of Cheltenham and Charlton Kings are site conditions delaying the supply of telephone service to prospective subscribers; how many prospective subscribers are currently awaiting service; what is the longest waiting period; and when he expects to make available to all prospective subscribers currently on the Cheltenham waiting list the service enjoyed by others in the district.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: There is spare capacity for 2,350 subscribers. Site conditions are causing delay at Hester's Way, Pittville Mount and Harp Hill. Twenty-one people are on the waiting list, and will have service this year. The longest waiting period is 17 months.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Is the Minister aware that the impression left by the debate last December was that all would be clear by April when the exchange facilities were available, but there are still a number of my constituents who are deprived, some being asked to share lines after having had a line of their own for many years?
    Mr. Slater: I am aware of that in view of the interest shown by the hon. Gentleman in an Adjournment debate and in previous Questions which he has asked. The recent extension of the exchange, together with others which are already planned, should provide adequate capacity to meet future growth, and we do not expect that there will be any waiting list.

    Telephone Apparatus (Sale Direct to Public)
    Mr. Kenneth Bakerasked the Postmaster-General what is the latest position in his discussions with the telecommunications industry on allowing companies to sell telephone apparatus direct to the public.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Discussions are still in progress.
    Mr. Baker: Why is the Postmaster-General taking so long to conclude these discussions? Why should not the British public be allowed to buy their telephones direct from suppliers, an arrangement which would save the Post Office £300 million in the next five years? Why is the Postmaster-General dragging his feet? I hope it is not because of pressures being put on him by certain segments of the unions?
    Mr. Stonehouse: This is a very complex subject. I do not accept that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion would save the Post Office £300 million. That is a ridiculous figure. The equipment that is chosen to be attached to the system must be compatible with the system, and the Post Office must ensure that the system works effectively.
    Mr. Dobson: Is my hon. Friend aware that, while many people would like a cheap telephone, what really matters is a reliable instrument in the home and the necessity to maintain reasonable standards?
    Mr. Stonehouse: That is entirely correct, and this is a consideration which we must bear in mind.

  INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE (FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY)
  Mr. Pavittasked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to the headquarters of the International Labour Office, Geneva, to mark this organisation's 50th anniversary.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): My right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio addressed the 50th anniversary conference on 19th June and conveyed a message of congratulation sent by me on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. Together with my right hon. Friends the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary and the First Secretary of State, I shall be meeting the Director General of the International Labour Office when he visits this country next month, and a national ceremony is being held at Lancaster House on 29th October, the actual anniversary of the first meeting of the International Labour Conference in 1919.
  Mr. Pavitt: While I welcome very much the action taken by my right hon. Friend, in view of the fact that this organisation was founded by the great Socialist, Albert Thomas, and that my right hon. Friend himself is one of the few Socialist Prime Ministers in Europe—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—will he consider making a special effort during the recess to make just a short visit to Geneva to pay on behalf of these benches our tribute to the I.L.O. for its tremendous work?
  The Prime Minister: I am not sure that a visit is necessary. It was the British delegation to the Peace Conference at Versailles 50 years ago which presented the proposals that led to the estabishment of I.L.O. As for the other part of the Question, I shall have the opportunity tomorrow of discussing this
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  matter with the Swedish Prime Minister—a Socialist Prime Minister, who has proved that the first 34 years of Socialist Government are the most difficult.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: Why is the Prime Minister so nervous about visiting Geneva? Is he afraid of meeting the International Red Cross?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs visited Geneva yesterday on a mission to try to ensure that relief routes are available to all areas of Nigeria. If the right hon. Gentleman would use his influence to keep those relief routes open he would not have anything to complain about.

  SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL (STATUE)
  Mr. Tilneyasked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to offer a site in Parliament Square for a statue of the late Sir Winton Churchill thus enabling the formation of a committee to supervise a worldwide appeal to meet the cost of making and erecting a permanent memorial for the public view in the centre of London to this great Parliamentarian.
  Sir J. Rodgersasked the Prime Minister if he will now take the necessary steps to erect a statue, at public expense, of the late Prime Minister, Sir Winston Churchill.
  The Prime Minister: When the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) last raised this on 11th February I said that before going ahead with a proposal for a further statue of the late Sir Winston Churchill we ought to be sure that there was broad support for it, both in the House and among the public generally. Since then the hon. Member has put down an Early Day Motion which has collected 153 signatories, including hon. Members from both sides of the House, but there has so far been very little evidence of broad public support outside the House. If, however, a committee of the kind the hon. Member has in mind is successful in raising funds sufficient to provide for a statue, the Government, for their part, would be happy to make a site available for the statue in Parliament Square.—[Vol. 777, c. 113–6.]
  Mr. Tilney: While I welcome the Prime Minister's limited reply, could he say exactly where in Parliament Square the site would be, whether the Government would be one of the sponsors of the appeal, and whether a Minister would sit on the appropriate committee?
  The Prime Minister: I should like to consider those points. Certainly I should like discussions with the committee which the hon. Gentleman hopes to form for this purpose as to the exact siting. It would be better if the sponsorship were widely representative of this House, and indeed of the country as a whole. I will certainly consider the question of liaison between a Minister and the committee.
  Sir J. Rodgers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has already been a public appeal on behalf of the late Sir Winston Churchill with a view to the foundation of Churchill scholarships? Will he recall that a similar public appeal was made following the death of General Smuts and that subsequently the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor Socialist Prime Minister, the then Mr. Attlee, put up a statue of General Smuts at public expense in Parliament Square? Why should the great services rendered to the country by the late Sir Winston Churchill not get the same treatment as those of General Smuts?
  The Prime Minister: We have a tradition in this House that in the case of a great statesman like the late Sir Winston Churchill we as a House wish to honour his memory within the Palace of Westminster. While I strongly endorse many of the hon. Gentleman's points, if it is thought that there should be a more public statue in the open, we are prepared to go along with it. But the more that it carries with it public confidence and support—I am not in any doubt that it can be found if the committee is energetic—we shall give all the help that we can.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Can my right hon. Friend say why there are four statues to 20th century Prime Ministers in the Members' Lobby but not one Labour Prime Minister?
  The Prime Minister: I think that that is another question. It will be understood that under the 10-year rule which
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  is normally applied the commemoration of Lord Attlee's undoubted—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Ramsay MacDonald?"] He got corrupted by the party opposite. Lord Attlee's undoubted public service will become a matter for due consideration 10 years after his death.
  Mr. Thorpe: Is it not self-evident from the tributes and the reaction of the nation at the time of Sir Winston Churchill's death that the erection of a statue to him would be widely welcomed by the people? Is it not a fact that there is already cast a statue of Sir Winston Churchill, the dimensions of which are such that it is causing problems in the Members' Lobby, and the suggestion has been made that the statue of another distinguished Prime Minister should be moved in consequence? Would it not be better, therefore, for that statue to be put in the Square?
  The Prime Minister: All these matters need to be considered, and the Government will give all the help they can. I believe that a public statue outside, for which there could be great public support, is a matter for the committee which the hon. Member for Wavertree has shown so much energy in organising over a period of months.
  Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend pay not the slightest attention to the Leader of the Liberal Party? The statue to be erected in memory of the late Sir Winston Churchill is now being cast in bronze. I speak on behalf of the committee, and I believe that the Minister of Public Building and Works will support me when I say that we are hoping that it will be unveiled by Lady Churchill before the end of this year.
  Mr. Thorpe rose—
  The Prime Minister: Clearly my right hon. Friend, who is concerned with these matters, speaks with great authority. Obviously this is a matter on which the Government, through my right hon. Friend, will want to keep in the closest touch with the committee.
  Mr. Thorpe: In that case, does the Prime Minister not agree that it is unfortunate that the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) should have written letters to the descendants of that former Prime Minister whose statue

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  already is in the Members' Lobby asking them whether they would mind it being moved?
  The Prime Minister: These questions relate to a tribute to a very distinguished statesman and Member of this House. It is not in the best interests of the House or the memory of the statesman concerned to get into rather disappointing exchanges between the right hon. Gentleman and other right hon. Members. We are trying to do a job in commemoration. The Government will be in the closest touch with the committee. The question relates to a statue in Parliament Square. We shall do what we can to help when the hon. Member for Wavertree has been able, as I am sure he can, to mobilise the necessary support.

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
  Mr. Marksasked the Prime Minister what further representations he has received on the proposals outlined in the White Paper, "In Place of Strife", and what replies he has sent.
  Mr. Ridleyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement upon his further discussions with the Trades Union Congress about the future of anti-strike legislation.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer hon. Members to my statement in the House on 19th June.—[Vol. 785, c. 700–14.]
  Mr. Marks: I realise that my right hon. Friend will be receiving further representations later today, but will there be consultations with such bodies as the Co-operative Movement, which has a good record in this connection, and those unions which are not affiliated to the T.U.C. such as, I am sorry to say, the N.U.T.?
  The Prime Minister: The question of representations is a matter for those who wish to make representations. As far as I can ascertain, I have had no official representations from the Co-operative Movement on the point, but I would like to look into this and see whether I am wrong, in which case I will inform my hon. Friend. Of course, unions and professional organisations which are not members of the T.U.C. are perfectly free
  640
  to make representations to my right hon. Friend on any aspects of this policy.
  Mr. Ridley: Can the Prime Minister say what penalties there are for people who are not members of unions or who belong to unions which are not affiliated to the T.U.C. and who go on strike? Will he confirm that if anyone wants to go on strike he should first resign from his union so that there will not be any unfair consequences?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is making a case, which I do not often hear from the other side of the House, for a closed shop.

  MANAGEMENT EDUCATION (REPORT)
  Mr. Moonmanasked the Prime Minister whether he will accept the recommendations of the first report of the Committee on Management Education, Training and Development; and if he will make a preliminary statement.
  The Prime Minister: At its meeting on 4th June the National Economic Development Council took note of the Committee's Report and endorsed its programme of current and future work. The specific recommendations of the report are being carefully studied by the Government. I have no doubt that they will receive equally close attention from the various other bodies affected, which include research councils, universities, local education authorities, the Central Training Council and industry and commerce.
  Mr. Moonman: While I am grateful for that reply, will my right hon. Friend also bear in mind that two of the recommendations dealing with the expansion of post-graduate places and the need for more management and marketing teachers require Government support and approval? We should be grateful for his comments on that point.
  The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for a letter on the subject which he sent me last summer, and I am always glad to hear from him on his views following discussion of the matter by the N.E.D.C.
  While it is difficult to identify separate Government expenditure on management training since a proportion of it goes into

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  institutions doing other forms of training, the best estimate that can be made is that for the last available year expenditure from public funds on teaching, buildings and equipment for management education in higher education and further education establishments was about £3 million.
  Mr. Heath: It appears from the report that what emerges is that the first priority is to obtain more teachers of management studies to take the increase in those qualified further. Can the Prime Minister say what the Government propose to do about the number of teachers?
  The Prime Minister: This is a matter of those who can be released from industry for the purpose of teaching. This is a problem which we have in other forms of training, as the right hon. Gentleman will know. The more people that there are on industrial training at all levels, the more are taken out of productive industry. This is a matter first for the local education authorities and research councils and for those universities, including the technology universities, which have such a fine record in stimulating management education.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORM (QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS)
  Mr. John Fraserasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about the Ministerial responsibilities for answering Questions on the various recommendations of the Royal Commission on Local Government in England (Command Paper No. 4040).
  The Prime Minister: Questions about the various recommendations in the report will be answered by the appropriate Ministers with statutory responsibilities. As I said in my statement on 11th June, general consultations with the local authority associations and other bodies are being conducted by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and questions about these consultations should be addressed to him.
  Mr. Fraser: Can my right hon. Friend say who will give consideration to the possibility of provincial councils, if created, being directly elected? Second, who will give consideration to the proposition that certain bodies like the Port of
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  London Authority, hospital management committees and regional management committees, which are at present appointed and not elected, should have their functions transferred to unitary or regional councils?
  The Prime Minister: Any matters affecting the Health Service are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, and the Government have announced the intention to make a statement about the future organisation following the Seebohm Report before the House goes up, I hope, later this month. As for provincial councils and all the main structural recommendations in the report, the negotiations with the local authorities in England will be carried out by my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Bessell: Can the Prime Minister assure us that the representations which will be made to his right hon. Friend by the county of Cornwall will be fully considered and accepted? Is he aware that the proposals of the Redcliffe-Maud Commission are rejected and resented by the vast majority of people in that county?
  The Prime Minister: I can give an assurance that they will be fully considered. As to accepting them, it depends on what they are and all the other considerations which will have to be taken into account.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Am I right in recollecting that my right hon. Friend, when he made his announcement about the Commission, said that the Minister without Portfolio would be conducting the discussions with the local authority organisations? If that recollection is right, will my right hon. Friend say why the Minister without Portfolio should not answer Questions in this House on the propositions put forward?
  The Prime Minister: In the interest or allowing the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) to put Question No. 7, I will answer that briefly. That is not what I said, Sir, when I made my announcement about the Commission.

  SWINDON (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  Mr. Martenasked Minister if he will make an to Swindon.
  The Prime Minister: I have no plans to do so at present, Sir.
  Mr. Marten: Can the Prime Minister say how long this section of the electorate, which is quite near my own constituency, will remain unrepresented in the House? Will the Prime Minister possibly consider the proposal that a time limit should be fixed by when a by-election must be held after a seat becomes vacant?
  The Prime Minister: I thought that the hon. Gentleman had this in mind. His Question relates to an official visit to Swindon. I am always pleased to visit that very distinguished part of the country. The hon. Gentleman will understand that in making my plans I shall have to go to Swindon via Ludlow, which was deprived of representation for 28 weeks between the vacancy and the issuance of the writ by the Government of which he was a member.

LONDON TRANSPORT (DISPUTE)
Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the dislocation of passenger transport services in London resulting from the dispute on the Underground.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Richard Marsh): An unofficial strike by London Transport signalmen took place today. I understand from London Transport that during the morning peak about one-third of the normal train service was operated, and that this improved later in the day.
I much regret the situation, and the hardship caused to the travelling public. I understand that agreement was reached yesterday between London Transport and the National Executive of the National Union of Railwaymen on alterations in the basis of payment to signalmen, and that the signalmen's action is against the union's advice.
London Transport is in touch with the N.U.R., and my Department and the Department of Employment and Productivity are keeping a close watch on the situation.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the hardship, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, to millions of people in the London area who will be struggling
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to get home from work this afternoon, will he say what steps he is taking to alleviate the position? In particular, does he propose to exercise his powers under the vehicle licensing system to get more road transport moving or to assist the organisation of the giving of lifts by private citizens by accepting insurance responsibility?
Mr. Marsh: I should make it clear, concerning the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, that the terms of insurance policies at present remain unaltered. It is not customary to invoke these regulations or these changes in relation to a strike of one day's duration and which, at the moment, is not having the catastrophic effects which were suggested.
The Metropolitan Police Force is using additional policemen to keep the traffic moving. There is no evidence at the moment of serious congestion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem determined to be gloomy, but they might recognise the facts. The position at the moment is that a third of the London Transport services are operating—[Interruption.] A third of the London Transport tube services are operating—[Interruption.] I wish that I could be allowed to answer the question, because it is a serious issue to people wanting to hear the answer. The present position is that the traffic is being coped with and there is no evidence of the major breakdown in services which the right hon. Gentleman was suggesting.
Mr. Richard: There have been rumours in the Press this morning that this action is to be repeated every Thursday until a settlement is reached. Can my right hon. Friend say whether these rumours are true? Will he also give an undertaking that the maximum amount of notice will be given to the travelling public in London if there are to be these stoppages?
Mr. Marsh: I sincerely hope that there will not be any further stoppages. Agreement was reached between the union and London Transport fairly late yesterday afternoon. A meeting took place rather later last night at which the men, against the advice of the union, decided to withdraw their labour today, and I believe that it was suggested that they would do so on subsequent Thursdays.

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The National Union of Railwaymen's full-time officials are now hard at work putting over to the men exactly what the position is. The men, through their union, have negotiated an agreement with London Transport. I hope that, whatever else is said in the House now, it will be borne in mind that this is a delicate position—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Gentlemen opposite do not understand industrial relations well enough to recognise that, I really am worried. The union is actively engaged in trying to get the men back to work. The union and the employers are both trying to avoid a recurrence of today's events. If hon. Gentlemen opposite do not recognise it, and need it spelt out, that is a delicate situation.
Mr. Bessell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was total chaos in business and commerce this morning? In view of this, and despite the delicacy of the negotiations to which he has referred, will he ensure that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity intervenes if there is a threat of a further strike next week?
Mr. Marsh: The Department of Employment and Productivity and my own Department are obviously very much concerned and involved with this dispute. At the moment, both the union and the employers are trying to avoid a recurrence of this dispute. I think that it is as well now to leave the union and the employers to see how far they can get in their own way.
Mr. Faulds: Will my right hon. Friend accept that a good number of us on these benches—certainly the progressive few—are becoming increasingly unsympathetic to lightening strikes of this nature whose main purpose seems to be bloody-mindedly to inconvenience as many people as possible with as little warning as possible?
Mr. Marsh: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making it quite clear that he represents, as on most things, a very small minority on this side and that he is, in fact, consistent in this view. This is not an occasion where it is particularly helpful, with respect to my hon. Friend, to make the sort of contribution that he did.
Mr. Faulds: There are things to be said.
Sir D. Renton: Is this an unconstitutional stoppage, covered by the undertaking given by the General Congress of the T.U.C. to the Government?
Mr. Marsh: The undertaking was that the trade union movement would involve itself in seeking to solve problems of this type—[Interruption.] Immediately this dispute took place the National Union of Railwaymen intervened. It is now, and has been throughout the day, working to end the dispute. I think that is a good achievement.
Mr. Shinwell: Has not my right hon. Friend been misinformed about the situation on London Transport this morning? If it is not catastrophic—that may be exaggerated language—it is certainly very embarrassing to those who have to travel on the tube trains. What is more embarrassing is that it might be repeated. It is very important that it should be avoided. Surely the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity should interest herself in a matter of this sort?
It is all very well for the Minister, who has a Government car—I do not object to that—but perhaps he will be kind enough to lend me his car tonight to get home.
Mr. Marsh: The last part of my right hon. Friend's question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works. If he is happy about it, my right hon. Friend can have the car, but he has to square it with him.
Of course, a stoppage of this kind causes enormous inconvenience to large numbers of people. I made this quite clear when I said that I much regret the situation and the hardship caused to the travelling public. This is inevitable, but the reports which we have had from the police today show that, given that there is a stoppage on London Transport. they are coping with it.
The Department of Employment and Productivity is very much involved in this issue, but at the moment the situation is that the union is trying to end this dispute.
Mr. John Page: To minimise the great hardship to Londoners, can the right hon.

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Gentleman say whether London Transport is using the maximum number of its own bus services this evening to help people to get home, and also whether, if necessary, it will draft in buses from outside to reinforce this alternative mode of transport?
Mr. Marsh: I cannot answer the last question without notice. The position at the moment is that the loadings on the central buses were higher than usual, particularly north of the river where there are no alternative British Rail train services. Traffic congestion was slightly increased overall, and was particularly bad at Ilford and Aldgate, where delays built up considerably. Country bus services were only slightly affected. There is not at the moment a demand for a large increase in the number of buses, but London Transport is doing what it can to improve the service.
Mr. Molloy: Will my right hon. Friend accept that sometimes it is particularly easy and popular to criticise the signalmen who have gone on strike, despite the fact that they have been in negotiation for some time? Does not the chaos which they have created for business and industry, apart from the general public, show what really important people they are, and that perhaps they are being underpaid?
Mr. Marsh: People who come out on strike usually believe that they have a valid case. I believe that on this occasion they have not. There has been negotiation with their union. The decision was referred to the national executive of the union, and the union concluded an agreement. The important thing now is to give the union the opportunity of making the case to its men.
Of course these men are important, as is evidenced by the problems we face, but they have reached an agreement with London Transport which gives a sizeable increase in pay.
Mrs. Thatcher: I am concerned with the transport consequences of the strike. As two-thirds of London's Underground is not working, and as there is a possibility of a recurrence next week, will the Minister assure the House that he is making extensive arrangements in case
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of such a recurrence, and take the matter more seriously than he has done today?
Second, will he say whether season tickets are likely to be capable of being used on buses, as they cannot be used on underground transport today?
Mr. Marsh: On the question of taking this seriously, I can only say that I had discussions on this last night, the last discussion taking place at about a quarter past twelve. This is obviously something which is taken very seriously indeed by many people. A lot of contingency plans have been laid for disputes of this type, but it does not help to start waving contingency plans around in the middle of negotiations.
Season tickets cannot be used on buses. People with monthly or longer tickets can apply for the extra day to be allowed when they renew their tickets.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Heath. Business question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: Will the Leader of the House kindly state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 7TH JULY—Supply [26th Allotted Day]:
Debate, until 7 o'clock, on the Planning and Development of the Firth of Clyde, on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Afterwards, a debate on the Introduction of Increased Charges for Dentures and Spectacles, which will arise on an Opposition Motion.
Remaining stages of the Air Corporations Bill.
TUESDAY, 8TH JULY—Progress on the Committee stage of the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (No. 2) Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 9TH JULY—Remaining stages of the Administration of Justice Bill [Lords] and of the Family Law Reform Bill [Lords].

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Subject to completion in Committee, progress on the remaining stages of the Iron and Steel Bill.
THURSDAY, 10TH JULY—Supply [27th Allotted day]:
Debate on the Situation in Nigeria, on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Motion on the Tay Road Bridge (Scheme) Approval Order.
FRIDAY, 11TH JULY—Remaining stages of the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill, and completion of the remaining stages of the Iron and Steel Bill.
Motion on the Northern Pennines Rural Development Board Order.
Consideration of Church of England (National Assembly) Measures.
Remaining stages of the Employers' Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Bill.
MONDAY, 14TH JULY—Completion of the remaining stages of the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (No. 2) Bill.
Mr. Heath: Is the Leader of the House aware that the Opposition decided to take one of its Supply days for a debate on Nigeria because of the immense interest shown by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House in this matter, and to give the House an opportunity of expressing its understandable anxieties to the Government?
Second, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is taking the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Bill quite unreasonably quickly in Committee? He has brought it forward in less than a week from the Second Reading. This is a most unusual situation. Should he not reconsider the business for Tuesday?
Mr. Peart: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his first remarks. I accept that Nigeria is an important matter. Perhaps I should tell the House that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary hopes, before the debate, I think on Monday, to make a statement on Nigeria, which he was pressed to do.
On the second matter, I should have thought that the arrangement was reasonable. After all, the Bill was published on 20th June. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have expressed
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their views. They know the points of opposition to the Government's proposals, and I should have thought that our proposal was reasonable in the circumstances.
Mr. Heath: I understand the right hon. Gentleman's saying that he will not alter the business, but I hope he will not say that it is reasonable.
Mr. Peart: That is all right.
Mr. Frank Allaun: May I ask two questions relating to the debate on Nigeria? First, as, within a week, thousands of people will have died, would it be possible to change the order of business between Monday and Thursday, to allow the debate on Nigeria to take place on Monday?
Second, it was announced, as my right hon. Friend will have seen in the Press today, that there was to be a statement by the Foreign Secretary to the House this afternoon. This statement is not to be made. Clearly, the Press has not imagined this. Could not the Foreign Secretary make the statement this evening? I ask that because I have in my pocket a letter which shows that the starvation is already beginning.
Mr. Peart: I know my hon. Friend's views. I do not accept them, but I have no wish to argue the matter. I respect my hon. Friend's views, but my right hon. Friend did not promise to make a statement today.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: News of it is in the Press.
Mr. Peart: I know that the right hon. Gentleman takes a great interest in this matter, but he must wait patiently. I think that it was reasonable for the Opposition to take a Supply day to debate Nigeria, and I have paid tribute to them for doing so. I think that it will be for the convenience of the House if my right hon. Friend makes a statement on Monday.
Sir G. Nabarro: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that, last Thursday, he gave me a very sympathetic answer to my questions about by-election writs? Does he propose next week to move any or all of the five by-election writs—for Newcastle-under-Lyme, vacant since 19th February, Swindon, vacant since 7th

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March, or the Gorbals, Islington, North or Paddington, North—all Labour seats, presently disfranchised?
Mr. Peart: I am glad that the hon. Member said that I was sympathetic. I think I was. I told him that this was a matter for the Patronage Secretary. Indeed, my right hon. Friend is here.
Mr. Winnick: Do we understand that the Foreign Secretary cannot make a statement on Nigeria before Monday because he is actively concerned with trying to organise relief supplies to Nigeria? If that is not the case, what would prevent a statement today, or at least tomorrow, on the visit made by his colleague to Geneva?
Mr. Peart: My right hon. Friend is anxious to see supplies of food going into Nigeria. Many factors are involved. I know that my hon. Friend has a particular view about this, but my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is anxious to do something. For this reason, he will make a statement on Monday.
Mr. Stratton Mills: On what day is the Postmaster General to make his statement on local radio, which is now imminent? Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to try to arrange that that happens on the same day as the B.B.C. statement about their finances?
Mr. Peart: I cannot say specifically, but the B.B.C.'s report will be with us soon, and as soon as possible a debate will have to be arranged.
Miss Lestor: May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to Motion No. 361, standing in my name and the names of about 60 other hon. Members?
[That this House congratulates Her Majesty's Government on the action so far taken since the referendum in Southern Rhodesia; and calls for an extension of sanctions to include all communications, an embargo on the use of British airports by airlines serving Southern Rhodesia, the establishment of an independent United Nations inspectorate to supervise sanctions, the maximum publicity for sanction-breaking operations wherever they are located, a greater training programme for exiled Rhodesians of all races, and an educational programme in Great Britain and abroad to explain
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why the Africans of Southern Rhodesia, with no opportunity for constitutional advance, will be compelled to seek their legitimate objectives by freedom fighting.]
The Motions calls for further actions against Southern Rhodesia. Will he give a guarantee that time will be found to debate this important issue before we rise for the Recess?
Mr. Peart: I have looked carefully at the Motion. I understand my hon. Friend's views. The Foreign Secretary has explained our position on this. But I cannot find time next week.
Mr. Bryan: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why the Postmaster-General is not to make a statement next week, when the B.B.C. makes its announcement about the radio programme?
Mr. Peart: I think that the Postmaster-General was involved in this earlier. I am anxious to help. There will be a debate.
Mr. Archer: In view of the stimulating ideas expressed yesterday in another place, may this House have an early opportunity of debating international control of the sea bed?
Mr. Peart: This is a very important matter, which was discussed in great detail in another place yesterday. I will carefully examine it, but I cannot be specific.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in a Committee Room upstairs this morning, supporters of the Sunday Entertainments Bill voted that there should be extra sittings on the Bill, and open-ended sittings, at that? Can he assure us that this will not be another Bill for which the Government will find time, and which they will back, although it is a Private Member's Bill?
Mr. Peart: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Bill is going through Committee. I cannot comment on it yet.
Mr. Hugh D. Brown: Would my right hon. Friend take note of Motion No. 369, about Conservative policy on shipbuilding in Scotland?
[That this House rejects the views of the right lion. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, as expressed in his

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speech to the North Lanark Unionist Association on 28th June in which he attacked in particular the widely welcomed moves by the Government to put Upper Clyde Shipbuilders on a sound footing and by implication the whole range of policies presently doing so much to restructure and strengthen the Scottish economy; particularly deplores the distasteful way in which these opinions were put and the wrongheaded and unjustified criticisms of the trade unions whose realistic efforts including personal sacrifices to ensure the future prosperity of this major industry should be praised not condemned; regrets that the right hon. Member's visit to Scotland should have been so prominently sponsored by a Conservative Front Bench spokesman on shipbuilding; and calls on the Leader of the Opposition and his Scottish supporters, having now had time to recognise the thoroughly catastrophic results the right hon. Member's policies would have for everyone in Scotland, to dissociate themselves from this particularly pernicious brand of Conservatism.]
Will it be in order to discuss this on Monday afternoon, because many of us want to reply to the outrageous speeches of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and also to find out whether this is yet another issue on which he is leading the Conservative Party?
Mr. Peart: I have seen the Motion, on the policy of the Opposition on shipbuilding in Scotland. Many of these questions are matters for you, Mr. Speaker, to decide when the debate takes place next week.
Sir D. Renton: Since Tuesday is really too soon for the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (No. 2) Bill, and as there is a desire for a debate on Nigeria sooner than Thursday, would it not be convenient to the House at large to exchange the business for Tuesday and Thursday?
Mr. Peart: I should have thought not.
Mr. Shinwell: My right hon. Friend's announcement did not refer to the introduction of the Merchant Shipping Bill next week. Can he give any assurance that the Bill will be introduced before the Summer Recess?
Mr. Peart: I did not include it in next week's business. I have replied to this question before. It is an important matter. I hope that the Bill will be introduced this Session.
Mr. Thorpe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, however critical some of us may be of the Government's policy, there is no difference in any part of the House as to the intense anxiety which is felt about the position in Nigeria, which is getting graver every moment? Therefore, why can we not have a statement from the Foreign Secretary either tonight or tomorrow, instead of having to wait until next Monday.
Mr. Peart: My right hon. Friend has made several statements on this matter. I thought that it would not be unreasonable to arrange for a statement on Monday. He has to have discussions. There will also be a full day's debate. I pay tribute to the Opposition for arranging that.
Mr. John Lee: May I press my right hon. Friend on Rhodesia? While it may not be convenient to have a debate next week, may we be assured that there will be a debate on this matter before the House rises, particularly in view of the fact that Mr. Smith has compounded his treason by further acts?
Mr. Peart: I cannot give that assurance.
Mr. John Lee: Why not?
Sir Harmar Nicholls: There is a strong feeling in the country that next week is the latest time that the writs could be moved for the five pending by-elections. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only alternative which would be acceptable is an announcement that there will be a General Election in the early autumn, but that, without that, those five seats should have their Members in this House?
Mr. Peart: The hon. Gentleman has made his point. A General Election is for the Prime Minister to decide and not for me.
Mr. E. Rowlands: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Seebohm Committee's Report has been out for a long time, that there has been a debate on

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it in another place but no debate here? Is it not about time that we did debate it, and heard what the Government intend to do about it?
Mr. Peart: Despite sympathy with that point of view, I can only say, not next week.
Mr. Marten: Following on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if the writ for the Swindon by-election is not moved next week it is likely that Swindon will not be represented in the House for more than 28 weeks, a point which was received with so much pleasure on the other side of the House when the Prime Minister mentioned it earlier?
Mr. Peart: I thought that I had made my position clear. This is a matter for the Patronage Secretary. I thought that the Prime Minister dealt very effectively with the hon. Member's point.
Mrs. Renée Short: Is it not a grave misuse of Parliamentary time that the House should be asked on Monday to debate yet again the whole question of the possible cost of teeth and spectacles? Is it not possible to change this, and debate some other aspect of the National Health Service, possibly the care of the mentally sick, in the light of the Ely Hospital Report? Would that not be much more to the point?
Mr. Peart: My hon. Friend must know that this is a Supply day, and that it is the right of the Opposition to choose a subject. I am not responsible for their choice.
Sir C. Taylor: The right hon. Gentleman may or may not be aware, reverting to Nigeria, that I made some unorthodox suggestions to the Prime Minister, in great sincerity, which were considered very sympathetically by him. Before the Foreign Secretary's statement is made on Monday, could these unorthodox suggestions be reconsidered, now that all orthodox methods seem to have failed?
Mr. Peart: I am sure that, if the hon. Gentleman has conveyed his views to the Prime Minister, however unorthodox or orthodox, my right hon. Friend will care-
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fully examine them. I cannot say more than that.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Has my right hon. Friend noticed Motion No. 356?
[That this House supports the application of the Heathrow Campaign Committee for a public tribunal to inquire into the aircraft noise in the vicinity of London Airport.]
As this is a non-controversial matter, would not my right hon. Friend refer it to the Minister of Housing and Local Government, so that the matter can be dealt with without taking, up the time of the House in debate?
Mr. Peart: I will convey my hon. Friend's views, but I am informed—I am only repeating what I said the other week—that there is adequate machinery for representations to be made on this matter.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: May I press my right hon. Friend on the question of Rhodesia? Would he agree, in view of the immense issues that are at stake in Rhodesia, that there could be a breakdown of Parliamentary government if we do not debate the subject before we rise for the Summer Recess?
Mr. Peart: I could not accept that there would be a breakdown of our Parliamentary government if a debate were not to take place before we recess in July. The position of Her Majesty's Government on this has been made perfectly clear.
Mr. Peter M. Jackson: My right hon. Friend will know that the House was to have debated the Report of the Dainton Committee on national libraries a fortnight ago and that that debate was cancelled. Will he give an assurance that time will be found for that report to be debated before the Recess?
Mr. Peart: I could not give that assurance.
Mr. Whitaker: Since the important White Paper on official secrecy was issued without any statement being made, may we have a half-day debate on the subject, albeit not next week?
Mr. Peart: I could not promise a half-day to debate that subject. A lot of important matters, apart from that, are outstanding.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order. Would it be possible, Mr. Speaker, for an hon. Gentleman opposite, other than a member of the Government Front Bench, to move by-election writs, so ensuring that the whole Labour Party may play a part in seeing that all constituencies have representatives in Parliament?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman appears to be making a helpful suggestion to the Government; but that is not a matter for me.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Further to my point of order. I am seeking your guidance, Mr. Speaker. Precisely who is responsible for moving a by-election writ? [Interruption.] Hon. Members other than myself may be interested in the answer to this question. Is it possible, Mr. Speaker, for back benchers opposite to move such a writ, should they so wish, as distinct from members of the Government Front Bench?
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman is asking that question on a point of order, then I will look into the matter and advise him. I am sure that the Government have taken note of his helpful suggestion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Peart.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [25TH ALLOTTED DAY], considered
  SUPPLY

    INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
    Mr. Speaker: I wish to announce that I have selected the Amendment to the Motion which stands in the name of the Prime Minister and the names of his right hon. Friends.
    4.3 p.m.
    Mr. Robert Carr: I beg to move,
    That this House condemns Her Majesty's Government for breaking the promise given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement to implement without delay during the present Session new legislative provisions for industrial relations.
    Once again, I am sure that none of the critics of our parliamentary procedure could criticise us for failing in topicality. As we look around us today, it must be agreed that there could not be a more topical subject for debate. I only hope that the Prime Minister—unlike, as was only too obvious, his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport—has either gone out into the streets himself today, or has had reports from people who have done so, so that he may know a little of what the ordinary people of London are thinking today.
    The Motion censures the Government, and nobody else. We welcome the commitment of the T.U.C. to a more active involvement in solving industrial relations problems. We think that that act of involvement may well do good, particularly to begin with and especially under the leadership of Mr. Victor Feather. We certainly hope that it will. However, we simply cannot believe that, on its own, it is sufficient to match the scale and urgency of the needs of the national situation.
    We censure the Government for runing away from doing what they themselves declared to be necessary in the national interest and from what we believe they still know in their hearts to be necessary. We censure them also for their irresponsible and melodramatic conduct in dealing with a problem of such grave national importance.

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    One thing is certain. The commitment of the T.U.C., however valuable it may be, is not equivalent to the legislative measures which the Government said were necessary and which they promised to implement without delay during this Session. If the T.U.C. commitment was genuinely believed by the Government to be sufficient, then the Government should, and undoubtedly could, have obtained such a commitment without this cliff-hanging melodrama, without this damaging conflict and public wrangle and without creating this humiliating spectacle which has done harm to the reputation of Government, to Parliament, to the country at home and even more damage to our reputation abroad.
    If the Government really believed that something like the present T.U.C. commitment was sufficient, then we can only tell them that to have wrung it out of the unions by public threats of unpalatable measures, beyond what the Government sincerely thought to be necessary, was a singularly unedifying way for any Government to behave. It was hardly surprising if, in return, the unions threatened the Government by refusing to do anything until the Government had first unconditionally withdrawn their proposals.
    But, of course, the Government believed their measures were necessary. They believed that they were the minimum needed this summer in the national interest. They have not blackmailed the T.U.C. into getting all that they thought was wanted. What they have done is to run away from doing what they genuinely believed to be essential only a short while ago.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the proposed interim Bill a key point in his Budget statement. His commitment was absolutely unequivocal, and not qualified as the Prime Minister told the House. Answering questions after his statement on 19th June, the Chancellor included no "ifs" and "buts"—there was no small print in his promise—for he said:
    "The Government have, therefore, decided to implement without delay, during the present Session, some of the more important provisions incorporated in the White Paper 'In Place of Strife'.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1969; Vol. 781, c. 1006.]
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    There were no "ifs" and "buts" in that. There was no qualification. It was a simple pledge and a promise. The Government undoubtedly believed that it was necessary then, and they must certainly still believe that it is necessary now. The current disputes in the docks, on the underground and elsewhere cannot be helping to change that fundamental belief in what is necessary.
    The T.U.C.'s commitment is to be welcomed. It is an important gain. However, it cannot be enough on its own and the T.U.C.'s powers are nothing like equal to those minimum powers which the Government said were so urgently needed—so much so as to justify an emergency interim Bill this summer.
    I am sure that the T.U.C. has signed its solemn and binding undertaking in full sincerity and good faith. I am sure that it was equally sincere when it signed the Declaration of Intent for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) over the voluntary incomes policy. But the truth of the matter is that in both cases the Government were seeking to put on to the T.U.C. an obligation which is contrary to its basic nature and purpose as an organisation—an obligation which it cannot uphold, however good its faith, when the crunch comes upon it.
    The only sanction to which the T.U.C. is bindingly committed against a member union which fails to act on an obligation placed upon it by the T.U.C. is to report that union to Congress—a threat, I suspect, hardly likely to make a major union exactly shiver in its shoes. Yet it would be unrealistic, and, I think, also wrong, to expect the T.U.C. to bind itself to more than it has done. How can the T.U.C. effectively sit in judgment on its biggest member unions without breaking itself into pieces?
    There is another question about depending on the T.U.C. as the chief instrument of policy, a question which, paradoxically, becomes more serious in direct proportion to the T.U.C.'s success in increasing its powers. The present power structure of the T.U.C. is based on and heavily weighted in favour of the industrial and occupational pattern of an age long since past. It is rapidly becoming more out-of-date each year and more unrepresentative of modern industrial conditions and employment patterns.

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    Thus, if the T.U.C.'s interventionist influence were to become more powerful, that might lead to fossilisation of the employment structure and its union representation rather than to the change which modern technology and methods urgently require. Quite a number of trade union leaders—including, particularly perhaps, leaders of newer and smaller unions—who are by no means averse in principle to the T.U.C. having more power over constituent members—nevertheless believe that before it takes this extra power the T.U.C. should itself first be reformed.
    There are other and gaping weaknesses in the formula on which we are asked to depend. What about non-affiliated unions? This is no academic question. Take the case of the British Air Line Pilots Association and the airlines. Unfortunately, in the last year or two we have had and have the threat of extremely damaging and disruptive disputes in the airlines. Anybody who is at all in close touch with this industry knows that, alas, further disruption is by no means impossible, although we all hope it will not happen. Under these powers the T.U.C. does not act in this case because B.A.L.P.A. is a non-affiliated union. Here is an enormous gap in the T.U.C. formula which could be of immense trouble and loss to the economy and our way of life.
    Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that B.A.L.P.A. was very pleased to have the services of a distinguished union affiliated to the T.U.C. to help it when it was in trouble?
    Mr. Carr: I can assure the hon. Member that I am aware of that, and perhaps it may come in useful again, but it is completely irrelevant to the point we are discussing. The T.U.C. formula, as such, does not in any way bear on this sort of problem, whereas the interim Bill from which the Government have run away could and would have done. That is the point in relation to this debate.
    Then what about the urgent need, which the Government so stressed, to apply the same pressures of the law to management as they were proposing to apply to trade unions? The First Secretary, in particular, laid great stress in debates in the House on this being one of the main
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    reasons why legislation was urgently needed. We might not have fully agreed with her, but we agreed with the principle that pressure of the law should apply on employers as much as trade unions.
    The right hon. Lady certainly made it a major point in her argument when for example, she was not only defending but actively campaigning for the merits of the conciliation pause. In the proposals she put forward to establish the right of union membership and methods of solving the problems of union recognition, it was also a key point in her arguments. Was it all window-dressing? Did she believe in it, or was she trying to sell this to the other side? Is it all suddenly unnecessary? All these powers, which, a few weeks ago, we were told were so necessary, have been thrown out of the window, not just for this Summer and this Session, but for the whole lifetime of this Government.
    What sort of Bill are the Government to introduce next Session, if any? Look at the proposals in "In Place of Strife". Many of the more important—indeed, I think one could say most of the more important proposals—contained in "In Place of Strife" involve sanctions in the background on unions and managements. For example, registration of unions, right to union membership, solution of union recognition problems, protection of the individual worker against unfair dismissal by his employer or perhaps unfair disciplinary action by his union and the question of ballots—every one of these major proposals which the right hon. Lady and the Prime Minister flaunted in the country as so important depend on sanctions in the background.
    Now, apparently, the Government have made a solemn promise that there will be no legislation containing sanctions in the lifetime of this Parliament. So what sort of Bill can be there be next Session? Just another declaration of intent or are the Government perhaps intending to apply new legal sanctions to employers and managers only?
    Mr. Russell Kerr: Read the report.
    Mr. Carr: The text we are talking about is "In Place of Strife". I remind the hon. Member that it is on the basis of

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    "In Place of Strife" that the Government are promising legislation.
    Whatever the hon. Member may think—and it may not be unusual if he does not agree with the Government—we must consider what the Government are proposing, and that is what they did propose. Failing that, do the Government propose to persuade the C.B.I. to discipline its members or suppose that a threat of suspension from membership of the C.B.I. is as effective against a company and somehow an equivalent sanction to that against a union of being suspended from the T.U.C.? Perhaps that is the idea of the Government's concept of effective legislation. The whole thing is nonsense. The whole thing is running away from reality and from responsibility.
    May we now move from the rôle of the T.U.C. to that of individual unions. The core of our trouble is that in substantial and vital sections of our industry today many workers and local unofficial leaders have developed a deeply ingrained habit of acting without regard to and contrary to their union rules and to the advice of their union executives. What reason is there to suppose that without any additional external pressure or incentive they will suddenly give up this habit?
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Carr: As the House knows, I normally give way, but I do not want to take too much time and Mr. Speaker has reminded us that when we give way to interventions that prolongs speeches.
    Quite apart from the unions' powers to control their members, there is also the question of organisation and resources. As the Donovan Report showed, British unions are notoriously under-staffed compared with unions in other major industrial countries. The T.U.C.'s binding undertaking might have carried more conviction if it had also contained a promise for a major recruitment and training programme and for a necessary increase in union dues to finance such a programme. Look at all the strikes going on at this moment. With all the good faith and sincerity in the world, can the T.U.C. and the unions carry out their self-
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    appointed tasks adequately and quickly enough?
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: I am most interested in the right hon. Gentleman's process of thought and am really quite anxious to know what effective measure the Opposition could propose to deal with a strike such as the one on the Underground this morning. How would a 28-day conciliation period, or suing the union or suing the strikers, possibly affect the strike?
    Mr. Carr: I am glad to resume my speech after the hon. Member has made his. If he had been a little more patient I would have come to that point. It was a typical example of how time can be wasted.
    What happens when a union consciously tries to act on an obligation placed on it by the T.U.C. to take energetic steps to obtain an immediate resumption of work and its members refuse to respond? That was the question put by my right hon. Friend to the Prime Minister after his statement of 19th June. So long as the Government had power in the background to order a concilation pause, as we still have in our proposals, the Prime Minister had a credible answer to give to that question.
    The concilation pause could have been actually used only in a dispute of major importance, and rarely, else it could easily have been brought into disrepute. But even short of its use, the very existence of that power in the background could have been a powerful extra incentive not only to the unions, but, even more, to potential strikers to try to settle their grievance by negotiation rather than by resorting to strike action.
    For the workers themselves it would have given some extra assurance that both their own representatives and their employer would have been under pressure to deal with the grievance quickly instead of, as so often happens at the moment, letting it drag on for so long. But now, with that power cast away, the Prime Minister could only reply that the unions must use their own rule books, including fines, suspensions and expulsion which, as he said, is a very serious punishment in a closed shop industry. It is indeed. It could well mean taking away a man's source of livelihood.

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    If unions really started to use their rule books against individual members without this House first having passed legislation to institute the control of registration over a union's rules, and without having instituted a system of independent appeal against disciplinary action, we could run into a danger of intolerable victimisation against individuals; and is it really any more acceptable for a man to be fined by his union than to be fined after proper process of law?
    But apart from the protection of the individual, is it really right and healthy for unions to be expected to discipline their members to the point where, in the last resort, they are effectively dismissing them from their jobs? Paragraph 96 of the Government's own White Paper emphatically declared that it was not.
    Unions, of course, can and must in future be expected to lead, instruct and even discipline their members according to their rules, but not to the extent of putting the unions in the position of having to dismiss their own members from their work. If, in the last resort, an employee has to be disciplined by suspension, still more by dismissal, then the responsibility must rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the employer.
    That is another powerful reason why we must have new law establishing the right of appeal against unjust dismissal. Neither an employer nor the Government ought to expect a union to discipline its members to that ultimate extent and, in any case, Parliament ought not to allow it.
    In a free society there can never be watertight remedies or absolute assurances that men can be prevented from striking even if they break their rules and refuse to act on their union's instructions. What we believe is that if we have in the background the instrument of the conciliation pause and, still more, the acceptance, as in other industrial countries, that a procedural agreement is legally binding on union and employer alike, the number of such cases, instead of increasing as it has been in recent years, will, first, be brought under control and in the longer run substantially reduced.
    To sum up on the Government's position, we believe the Prime Minister was
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    quite right when he told the May Day Festival of Labour on 4th May:
    "Nothing that has happened in these past five years and more suggests that the trade union movement alone can produce, with the urgency that is required, effective means of dealing with unofficial strikes".
    The T.U.C. and individual unions have a vital part to play, but they cannot do the job on their own nor should we expect them to do so; nor would it be right if they ever successfully assumed to themselves sufficient power to do that job.
    I want to conclude by summarising the real nature of the problem and what is needed. But, first, let me be clear that a disease which has established itself in our industrial body, as it has, over a generation and more, cannot be cured in a month or two or even a year or two. There is no single, sovereign, quick remedy and anyone who pretends that is a false and dishonest prophet. The remedial pressure will have to be applied long and continuously.
    What is our objective? Surely, here there is something on which we can all agree, on all sides of the House, Surely, what we want is a system of industrial relations in which pay, working conditions and consultative and disputes procedures are all determined by independent bargaining, not imposed by the State.
    That has been the ideal of our traditional system, but it has broken down in ways, and for reasons, clearly analysed and brought out in the Report of the Donovan Commission. Its responsible development in recent years has been hampered and damaged by statutory control of incomes, on the one hand, and by lack of a modern framework of industrial relations law, on the other.
    For more than three years now the Opposition have been pressing for two things. First, we opposed and repeatedly called for the repeal of the law to control wages; and we have constantly urged the need for new legislation to regulate industrial relations. But the Government, on the other hand, have wrongly and perversely insisted on the exact opposite of both those things until suddenly, earlier this year, and belatedly, they saw the light of day.
    Thus, on 15th April the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a key section of his

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    Budget speech, promised two inter-linked proposals: first, a retreat from statutory incomes control; secondly, a first, although tentative, advance towards a new industrial relations law. In our view, his promises did not go far enough; but they were an important recognition of a vital principle. They were a first step in the right direction. Now the promise has been broken and we are going backwards again.
    It is true that we criticised the Government's legislative proposals as inadequate, but we made it absolutely clear that we would give them a fair wind in spite of their inadequacy and in spite of the fact that in some respects they were positively wrong. Let me be quite clear that we did not criticise the Government's proposals because they were insufficiently fierce in applying sanctions. We criticised them because they were insufficiently in-comprehensive in establishing a modern set of rules bearing on employers and trade unions alike, but within which they could be given much more freedom to conduct collective bargaining without State intervention.
    Our chief criticism of the Government's proposals was that they put Ministerial intervention and the possibilities of penalties and sanctions, particularly against individuals, in the forefront instead of leaving them right in the background as the measures of least importance and of absolutely last resort. The Government's Bill, if it had ever been introduced, would have shared one intrinsic weakness with that of the much weaker T.U.C. formula. Both of them set out to tackle the problems of industrial relations from the wrong end, namely, trying to do it by strengthening the interventionist power of central machinery rather than creating new pressures and incentives at every level from the plant upwards.
    Central intervention attacks the symptoms, but not the causes. The Royal Commission realised this clearly. It saw the need for improving the quality and status of collective agreements at company and plant level. The main instrument the Commission proposed for achieving that change was the establishment of the Commission on Industrial Relations, coupled with the requirement that collective agreements should be registered with the
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    Department of Employment and Productivity.
    We support that: we believe it to be valuable; but, like Mr. Andrew Shonfield in his note of dissent to the Royal Commission's Report, we believe that on their own these means are inadequate to bring about the vital change which is necessary or at least to do so quickly enough. Somehow we must find pressures and incentives which operate simultaneously over the whole of industry, from the individual plant upwards, and which, in the short run will begin to impose some control on the present disorder and, in the long run, stimulate the changes in outlook and organisation which we require. In a free society, that is the traditional, proper rôle of a system of civil law.
    What is needed is a comprehensive set of interdependent measures. Unions and employers' associations must submit their rules and procedures to registration. They must both have corporate legal status. There must be a legal duty on employers to recognise registered trade unions when this is the wish of the majority, and there must be proper machinery to discover this wish by secret ballot, both on the basic question of union recognition and where a choice must be made between one union and another.
    There must be a proper definition of a "lawful trade dispute". Collective agreements must be made legally binding, except to the extent that both parties make clear that they wish them not to be. There must be adequate guarantees for the rights of individual workers, unionists and non-unionists alike, against unfair pressures, whether from employers or unions. There must be a new system of industrial courts, on which both employers and unions are represented.
    We have set out all these and other additional proposals in detail. The point to be stressed is that they are all needed. No single one of them can bear the whole weight on its own. These measures constitute the basic structural framework. Beyond this there is some additional advantage in having special powers, for example, for a conciliation pause and for calling strike ballots, as long-stops to be used rarely.
    The main emphasis is to create the environment in which industry can responsibly regulate its own affairs with

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    the minimum of State intervention. Sanctions, though necessary in the background to any system of law, are measures of very last resort, and to be effective as deterrents they should bear on corporate bodies, companies and unions, rather than on individual workers.
    In the end, the problems of human relations in industry can and will be solved only by responsible voluntary action, by employers and unions alike. As I have often said before, the chief responsibility for the initiative must inevitably rest with the employers and with management. But in this, as in every other field, the voluntary action must take place within a proper framework of law in tune with the needs of modern conditions. The choice is not between a system with law and a system without it. There is already a great deal of law. The point is that bad law hinders, while good law can help, responsible voluntary action.
    Our present body of law is narrowly directed at the trade unions and not at industrial relations as a whole. Most of it is antiquated and based on conditions of the last century. It has been added to over the years on an ad hoc basis. We have never yet had what other industrial countries have found necessary and helpful long ago, namely, a single comprehensive system of law.
    Voluntary action can be powerfully supported by the conciliatory and persuasive functions of the Department of Employment and Productivity, and now the new C.I.R. It can be powerfully helped by the greater involvement of the T.U.C. But our study of the problems in this country and the experience of other countries convinces us that for voluntary action to have a fair chance of success we need a fresh, clear comprehensive framework of civil law to create a more favourable environment for change, to buttress responsible action and to provide some deterrent to the small, irresponsible minority.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: As in Australia.
    Mr. Carr: Not as in Australia. The hon. Gentleman cannot understand the Australian system or the difference. I know that he should, but clearly he cannot if he makes a remark like that.
    Many trade union leaders have a genuine fear of a new system of law.
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    I know that the fear exists and that it is genuine, but I say to them, as I have said before, "For once, look abroad". The experience of other countries is that, far from being shackled and weakened by them, the trade unions flourish under comprehensive frameworks of law which include a requirement that collective agreements should be legally binding. Under such systems of law trade unions in other countries today, as for the past few years, are powerfully using collective bargaining, free from detailed State intervention and statutory incomes control, to win for their members improvements in pay and conditions which are steadily outstripping the gains being achieved for workers in Britain.
    As I have said, we hold out no magic cure. There is no complete answer to the multitude of various situations which arise in human relations in complex modern industry. In a free society there will always be strikes, even unofficial and unconstitutional strikes. We are not trying to stop strikes. What we are trying to do is to control them, to make them the means of last resort instead of, as they are too often at present, the means of first resort.
    We do not claim that law, by its direct action, will achieve all that is needed. Its chief benefit will be in its indirect and cumulative effect in influencing the way in which employers and unions and individual workers think and act and do their business together.
    We believe with utter conviction that when we have a system of law which lays down clearly the rights and obligations of employers and unions, which provides a proper system of protection for the individual worker in conditions in which he is becoming more and more subject to a working environment dominated from both sides by powerful institutions and pressure groups, and lays down clearly what is lawful and what is not in the conduct of a trade dispute, we shall have created an environment in which there can be more order and efficiency and, therefore, more wealth to be distributed, and more contentment in working life. Until we have such a system, we shall continue to flounder.
    4.40 p.m.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I beg to move, to leave out

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    from 'House' to the end of the Question and add instead thereof:
    'endorses the announcement of the Prime Minister on industrial relations on 19th June, 1969; welcomes the undertaking given by the General Council of the Trades Union Congress in respect of inter-union disputes and unconstitutional stoppages; and rejects the advice of an Opposition who both in office and in opposition failed to produce relevant or workable proposals to bring about a reform in industrial relations'.
    I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition has responded to our invitation to a debate on industrial relations. We are used to his speeches outside the House, mainly to Tory audiences, and I grant him that he is becoming accomplished in the use of those titillating morsels best calculated to excite the Pavlovian salivation of a typical Tory audience, be it immigration, or be it hanging, or, of course, that favourite subject of Tory demonology, the trade unions.
    But the right hon. Gentleman has been hesitant about bringing his views on this question to the test of parliamentary debate. Today, on the third of these questions, industrial relations, the time has come to examine his credentials. When a political party seeks to win support on its assertion that it will deal with a problem which causes public concern, it is relevant to ask precisely what it did when it had the power to act—and the Tory Party had many years in which it could have acted.
    But, even more, when the leader of a political party makes grandiose claims of what he would do in a hypothetical future situation, it is no less relevant to ask what he himself did when he had the Departmental responsibility as Minister of Labour in such a situation. It is relevant to ask not "What do they say?" but "What did they do?". To judge from the speeches of right hon. Gentlemen opposite in the country recently, after leaving office, nothing is more urgent for Britain than this question.
    Sir Tatton Brinton: We fought the election on it.
    The Prime Minister: Not in 1959.
    Last November, the Leader of the Opposition demanded an urgent Bill before Christmas. Why, then, was
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    nothing at all done in the Conservative Party's years of office, including the time when he was Minister of Labour? At Question Time on 17th June the right hon. Gentleman produced two lame and unconvincing excuses for not having acted during those 13 years. "Ah!" he said:
    "… we were discussing with the trade union movement and its responsible leaders putting their own house in order …"
    Discussions that took 13 years?
    The right hon. Gentleman will, I hope, at least be prepared to admit that our negotiations with the unions have produced more in 13 weeks than the Conservative Government's in 13 years.
    The right hon. Gentleman's other explanation on 17th June was:
    "… the whole House over the last 15 years has learned the need for a fundamental review of industrial relations legislation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th June, 1969; Vol. 785, c. 254.]
    It is certainly true that, on this issue, as on so many others, the Opposition's road to Damascus began only when they no longer had the responsibilities of office. It is only when they no longer have had the duty of acting that they have suddenly acquired that clarity of vision, that vicarious courage which were absent from their counsels before 1964. If it is true, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that we all know more about this problem than we did in the early 1960s—and this is his lame excuse—it is because we have had the Donovan Commission's Report and we have had the public discussion which followed it. But why did we not have these before?
    It is not even that no one thought of it. It was repeatedly pressed on Conservative Ministers of Labour and as repeatedly rejected by them. The right hon. Gentleman will be only too well aware of the news items in The Times of 4th January, 1960. He has, not yet at any rate, said that this was a misquotation—but, of course, these are early days. It appeared only nine and a half years ago. But I will remind him of what it said:
    "Mr. Heath, Minister of Labour, has written to a number of Conservative M.P.s rejecting, at least for the time being, a request for the setting-up of a Royal Commission on Trade Unions."
    The report went on to quote from the right hon. Gentleman's letter:
    "I think we must first give the T.U.C. the opportunity to deal with its undisciplined minority."

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    The right hon. Gentleman went on to quote in his letter from a passage in the Conservative Party's General Election manifesto of the previous year—1959—in which it was said that he
    "… intended to invite representatives of employers and trade unions to consider afresh human and industrial problems that the next five years will bring."
    The Times report then went on:
    "The Minister has not as yet issued invitations for such a meeting and his letter gives no indication of when he intends to do so."
    If the right hon. Gentleman had acted, if he had set up the Donovan Commission in January, 1960, we should at any rate have had its report by the time the Conservatives left office.
    In the exchanges of 17th June, when I reminded the right hon. Gentleman of his omission in this respect—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) is going to hear what his party did.
    Mr. Victor Goodhew rose—
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is going to take delight in hearing—I do not think that he was here at the time—about what his party did not do in 13 years.
    Mr. Goodhew: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Prime Minister is saying that I was not here in 1960. I was.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Gentleman must not use a point of order to enter debate.
    The Prime Minister: I apologise to the hon. Member for St. Albans. He may have been here, but he was not noticed in those days. He was probably keeping a lot quieter because he was ashamed at the behaviour of his right hon. Friends.
    In the exchanges in the House on 17th June, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition excused himself for not setting up an inquiry. He told us why he did not do so. The reason he gave was that there were only two signatures on the Motion by his back-bench Members. It might seem to the House that this is a strange reason for taking no action at all. If it was
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    right to set up an inquiry, it surely should not have mattered whether there were two or 200 signatures to the Motion. If he had thought it right to set up an inquiry, he would have done so.
    We are now asked to believe—and this is the implication of what he said on 17th June—in the legend of a vigorous, modernising Minister of Labour, sitting in his office all those long months, scanning the Order Paper morning by morning to see if there were enough signatures on a Motion to give him the courage he was lacking. But, of course, I acquit him of that. He was not doing it, because even two or three signatures were an embarrassment to him.
    One of the signatories of the Motion, which appeared year after year on the Order Paper, has, since he left the House, written a book, and for greater accuracy I have obtained a copy. It says:
    "Year by year, when Parliament opened in the autumn, this was Motion No. 1 on the Order Paper …"
    I will not read out the Motion and embarrass the Opposition.
    The book goes on:
    "Pretty well everyone on the Conservative side agreed with the Motion, but it never collected more than half a dozen other signatures. Presumably, the Whips made it clear that it was embarrassing to the Minister of Labour—indeed before long, it was made directly clear to us that it was embarrassing to the Minister of Labour. This was in 1959 by the newly appointed Minister of Labour, Mr. Edward Heath himself."
    Then follows an account of the signatories being asked
    "… to attend an interview at which it was suggested to us that we might withdraw our Motion. The Minister, a determined man, wrestled mightily in argument with the unlikely trio whom he had assembled. But on this occasion, he wrestled in vain, the Motion continued to appear."
    There we have the picture, deeply moving to me, of the right hon. Gentleman, Samson Agonistes, wrestling with the three back benchers—
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: On a point of order. In view of the very serious nature of this subject, which concerns the country, can we have a serious speech from the Prime Minister?
    The Prime Minister: It is precisely because of the serious nature of the subject

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    that I am drawing attention to the hypocrisy of those who are now demanding action and who spent half their time wrestling with back benchers to get them to take Motions off the Order Paper.
    Mr. Julian Amery rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The right hon. Gentleman must not persist.
    The Prime Minister: I am following the example of the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr).
    The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, having refused to set up an inquiry, having used all the powers available to an ex-Chief Whip to get these unfortunate back benchers to take the Motion off the Order Paper, then continued, throughout his period as Minister of Labour, right through to the day when he was translated to a Foreign Office post. This new apostle of urgency retired from the Ministry of Labour after eight and a half years of Conservative government, not only having done nothing but having blocked any action, even an inquiry. But, of course—we have the right hon. Gentleman's own words, in the House a fortnight ago—the problem continued—[Interruption.] The hon. Member must be patient. I will deal with all the points which he wants answered, but I must remind him of what his own party did when they had the power to do it. The right hon. Gentleman said a fortnight ago that, in all this period, all these years, negotiations with the trade unions went on.
    The next breathtaking development was on 14th February, 1963—
    Mr. Amery rose—
    The Prime Minister: I am sorry: many hon. Members wish to speak. The right hon. Gentleman was a Minister at that time. He should have got up on 14th February, 1963, and asked for action then. That is when he could have spoken—
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Windy.
    The Prime Minister: I have never been windy of that right hon. Gentleman. The hon. and learned Gentleman is confusing
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    me with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath).
    In February, 1963, when the party opposite had chalked up 11 years and four months in office, we got another development. The then Minister of Labour, now in another place, was addressing the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about today's strike?"]—he was addressing the House on that day's strike. I will come to today's strike in a moment. He turned to the question of unofficial strikes.
    The then Minister of Labour, now Lord Blakenham, used powerful and weighty words in a quotation from a speech by Lord Williamson about the gravity of this problem, the loss of production and exports, the effect on thousands of innocent trade unionists being thrown out of work and, having diagnosed the problem, he gave his prescription. This was after 11 years of office
    "The most satisfactory way of dealing with all this is for the unions to put their house in order."
    Lord Blakenham referred to a decision of the T.U.C. the previous year to review the structure and purpose of the trade union movement. If it failed, he said,
    "… the situation will be serious; we must ask ourselves whether we can let things go on as at present. My view is that we cannot."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1963; Vol. 671, c. 1509.]
    He referred to public opinion on this question and then, having looked the problem in the face, passed on to a consideration of Clause 2 of the Bill which the House was discussing, and left the matter once again in the hands of the trade union movement.
    That was in 1963. Another year passed—[An HON. MEMBER: "What have you done?"] The trade union movement had not given any undertaking or taken any action at that time. Another year passed, producing close to 12½ years of Conservative government. The party opposite brought out its mammoth campaign guide for the General Election, which it was clear would have to take place later in the year. On the basis of its 12½ years' experience and study, it rejected a law making unofficial strikes illegal. That was after 12½ years.
    The Tories rejected compulsory secret ballots. That was after 12½ years. They rejected a proposal that, by amending the Trade Disputes Act of 1906, unions

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    should lose their immunity from civil action if they failed to deal with unofficial strikers. The fact that they have now, in the total irresponsibility of their kind of opposition, reversed their policy, demonstrates one thing and one thing only—that their campaign on industrial relations is no more than a political contrivance.
    Mr. Amery: I am very grateful to the Prime Minister for giving way, at length. He has had a lot of fun for a few minutes with this side of the House about what we have done in opposition. Is that any more relevant than if we were to tease him on his statements about the independent deterrent, or the unity of Europe, when he was in opposition?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman shows the evidence of a very long absence from the House. If he wanted to debate TSR2, on which he wasted £700 million, I would be glad to, but not today. I always thought that the right hon. Gentleman should never have been dropped from the Front Bench. He is too good for that bench.
    The Leader of the Opposition—I have heard this, also, during one or two little interventions while I have been speaking—made the charge that, as Leader of the Opposition, I rejected the proposal by the then Minister of Labour in March, 1964, for an inquiry into trade unions. By March, 1964, it is true, we had had the fifth Conservative Minister of Labour since 1951. None of the first four had done anything at all—not even set up an inquiry, not even promised one—and it is true that he was under great pressure from the trade union movement to legislate to deal with the problem created by the Rookes v. Barnard decision.
    Action from a Tory Government after 12½ years was, of course, inconceivable. Reaction by their supporters was, however, predictable. So the right hon. Gentleman—I pay tribute to his courage compared with that ofhisfourpredecessors—with scant courtesy to his predecessory, with total disregard for passages which their candidates were learning by heart from the election campaign guide, published only a month earlier, on this point, proposed an inquiry, but he did so in the context of two High Court decisions—Rookes v. Barnard and Stratford v. Lindley. Fair enough. He made that
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    proposal, but if he decided in March that an inquiry was necessary, since they were in office another seven months after that, why was it not set up before he left office?
    It was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that I rejected such an inquiry. Yes, I rejected it in the context of Rookes v. Barnard. The text is on the record. I am prepared to put it in the Library—[Interruption.] I write my own speeches, unlike the hon. Gentleman's leaders, and I remember that speech. The hon. Gentleman can study what I said in the context of the Rookes v. Barnard case. I said that there was no need for an inquiry—indeed, I used some oft-quoted words to say that it would waste time. In the context of Rookes v. Barnard, where the issue was clear, it would have been a waste of time to have an inquiry, and we legislated in 1965.
    By the 1966 General Election, right hon. Gentlemen opposite decided, against the background of their total policy bankruptcy which I have just outlined, to make the trade union movement the centre of their General Election campaign. For a few days they gave the emotive noose trial at Cowley the full Tory treatment. The River Isis was foaming with much blood, and a lot of good it did them.
    I could go on at much greater length about what they did and did not do. I know that this is very embarrassing to hon. Gentlemen. It is very embarrassing, after all their speeches on this, to be reminded that in 13 years they produced nothing at all, unless it was the abolition of compulsory arbitration under Article 1376, and the refusal, when there were far more signatures on the Order Paper, including many of my hon. Friends, to deal with the scandal of the Foremen and Staff Mutual Benefit Society.
    It is not necessary to take the House further into the record of those 13 years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that we are in agreement. I remind the House of the advice which was once given on another Tory stunt:
    "Why look into the crystal when you can read the book?"
    We legislated on Rookes v. Barnard, and, by doing so, ended a situation which was poisoning industrial relations. Less than six months after coming to office we

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    set up the Donovan Commission, which took more than three years to report. I do not this evening intend to go over all the ground covered by that report. In its analysis it is without doubt the most thorough and most authoritative account of the problems of industrial relations in Britain, of the achievements of trade unions and employers' associations and of the shortcomings of the system.
    It dealt, in particular, with a recent development which we all have to face, and which was implied in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman—the fact that over a wider and wider range of industry, not only working conditions but an increasing proportion of the pay packet are determined by bargains struck at company or plant level rather than by the formal nation-wide negotiation system. On the credit side, we have all that this means positively in terms of the ability to relate earnings to productivity. But, on the debit side, we have the problem of the creation of precedents and preemptive claims, and the dangers of local unofficial action.
    Disputes, whether official or unofficial, are not, of course, confined to the engineering industry. The record of our docks, shipping and transport proves that. But by far the greatest number, particularly of unconstitutional disputes, arise in engineering, and a very high proportion of those in the motor car and components industry. This is partly because of its disorderly and uncontrolled pay structures and piecework systems; it is partly also for a structural reason.
    The motor car industry is mainly an assembly industry. It relies upon the supply of thousands of separate components, many of them made in quite small firms, components of which the assembly firms cannot afford to maintain large stocks. So the industry's structure renders it highly vulnerable to short and costly stoppages, most of them unconstitutional and, indeed, renders them vulnerable to industrial blackmail.
    Donovan set out a large number of positive actions that needed to be taken, most of them not requiring legislation, most of them impossible to touch by legislation, many of them requiring years of constructive action by industry itself if the basic cause of disputes and industrial malaise were to be removed. We accepted the great majority of these
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    recommendations. We established the Commission on Industrial Relations in January, and it is hard at work.
    In all her consultations with trade unions and employers' associations my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State stressed the paramount need to get on with work directed to eliminating the underlying basic causes of disputes, to improving negotiating procedures, to improving machinery for the speedy settlement of disputes, to improving the quality and clarity of industrial agreements. We all agree that all this is necessary; the need for this is accepted by leaders of industry, by employers and by trade unions. It is a long and back-breaking job; there are no easy solutions, no short-cuts.
    Hon. Gentlemen opposite who, a fortnight ago, sneered and jeered at what the T.U.C., by an overwhelming majority, had agreed at its emergency congress—and I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman today welcomed what it had done—
    Mr. R. Carr: The Prime Minister really must not represent that we welcomed it for the first time today. We have welcomed it from the beginning. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition welcomed it in his broadcast, a transcript of which I have in front of me, in these words:
    "The declaration of the T.U.C. is very welcome."
    That is what my right hon. Friend said on television, so will the Prime Minister please stop misleading people?
    The Prime Minister: Since the right hon. Gentleman's Motion is about what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on the Tuesday and does not take any account of what my right hon. Friend said on the Wednesday, I think that I am entitled to point out that the right hon. Gentleman did not say it in the House but waited to say it until he was on television.
    If the right hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said, he would have heard that I praised him for welcoming it in the House. I was referring to his back benchers who, no doubt to his embarrassment, sneered and jeered a fortnight ago at what the T.U.C. had done. I am suggesting that as a suitable penance they might now take time off to study

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    what has been decided and what is being done by the T.U.C.
    Let us leave on one side the new powers taken to deal with inter-union disputes. Let us leave on one side the further undertakings given as a result of the Government's pressure on the unions in the discussions which ended in the agreement of 18th June about unconstitutional disputes. I was referring just now to the key to the improvement in the background which the right hon. Gentleman stressed.
    Study what is said in that document, what is being done on industrial attitudes, on industrial machinery, procedures, agreements. Study the constructive section of "Programme for Action" dealing with industrial education, a very important part of that document, dealing with the responsibilities of shop stewards and how they are to be assisted to discharge those responsibilities. This is the language of modern industry. That is why we welcome it. To judge from the noises of hon. Gentlemen opposite a fortnight ago, it might as well have been written in Swahili for all they understood or cared about it.
    I could only wish that the Confederation of British Industry, in what it has said and written, had shown a similar determination to get to the bottom of these problems. Indeed, I could only wish that the Confederation would express its views in similarly adult and educated language.
    I hope that in the cooler and less partisan atmosphere in which, after today, this problem can be studied, not only in this House but throughout industry, there will be more awareness and more recognition of what is being done by both the T.U.C. and the Government.
    Where the Government parted company from the Donovan recommendations lay in the need for firm and specific action to deal with some of the most urgent problems of industrial relations, and particularly the problems of inter-union disputes and unconstitutional stoppages.
    That was why the White Paper was brought forward in January, with our proposals for legislation; legislation to deal with some of the anomalies and anachronisms which were and are poisoning industrial relations. The right to join a trade union, the right of trade unions in collective bargaining, the out-
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    lawing of various types of anti trade-union manoeuvres such as the notorious Foremen and Staff Mutual Benefit Society which I referred to earlier. Legislation to require a return to the status quo where a dispute is caused or threatened by an arbitrary dismissal—and I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said on this—or by the introduction of new working practices affecting employment and earnings without adequate consultation.
    On these matters our intentions were set out in the White Paper, and in the speeches of my right hon. Friend in the debates of 3rd March and 16th April.
    Being deeply moved by the right hon. Gentleman's retrospective validation and support for what my right hon. Friend said, I could not quite understand why hon. Gentlemen opposite abstained when we debated it, nor could I understand why right hon. Gentlemen opposite briefed the Press to say that, while giving it a fair wind, they would not give it any support in the Parliamentary decisions required to make progress. I have no doubt that when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition speaks this evening he will quote again, as he quoted in his utterances outside the House, for example, on television, what I said at a meeting upstairs about the need for the legislation which we proposed.
    This has been frequently quoted by the right hon. Gentleman on television and in speeches elsewhere. Perhaps when he quotes it again he would like to quote from that same speech the passage he omitted to quote on television. It may well be that it is not in the brief he was given, so I will quote it for him so that he can take it down and repeat it again tonight.
    I said in the same speech:
    "If the T.U.C. is able to come forward with proposals for dealing with unofficial strikes, no less effective, no less urgent in time, than the Government's proposals, we are prepared still to consider them."
    My right hon. Friend had made this clear in the House on 16th April in the Budget debate, which is the subject of this Motion, when she amplified the Chancellor's announcement. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to look it up, it is to be found in HANSARD of 16th April, in c. 1186. He would do well to read it out and then withdraw his Motion.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: What is it?
    The Prime Minister: I can only give the hon. and learned Gentleman the words I used. I cannot give him the intellectual apparatus to appreciate what they mean.
    My right hon. Friend and I put this proposal to the T.U.C. at our meeting on 11th April, and again at our meeting on 16th April, after the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement the previous day. It has been repeated by me in public on at least half a dozen occasions, and in this House and on television. Therefore, I am surprised at the ignorance of the other side in not quoting that when they quote other parts of the same speech.
    The question the Government had to decide was whether "Programme for Action" and its endorsement by the special Congress of the T.U.C. provided an adequate alternative to the legislation we were proposing and which we had announced. That is what this debate is about.
    On inter-union disputes—
    Sir Knox Cunningham rose—
    The Prime Minister: I said inter-union disputes, not inter-Unionist disputes.
    On inter-union disputes, we decided that the Croydon decision met our requirements, but on unconstitutional strikes we decided that it did not meet our requirements. The T.U.C. was so informed before Croydon and again on the Monday after Croydon.
    I will deal with inter-union stoppages. We have often heard in the House speeches about serious stoppages of work because of inter-union squabbles. The whole House will agree that the T.U.C. has taken a tremendous step forward. Every one of us can quote examples of costly and unnecessary who-does-what disputes.
    The T.U.C., not only in its decisions but in its analysis of the problem, set out what most hon. Members would agree is an extremely important distinction between four types of inter-union dispute that have bedevilled industrial relations for so long. For example, disputes about recognition as in the British Steel Corporation, about union membership as at
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    Girling, about demarcation as at Vickers, Barrow, and about policy on wages and conditions as at Pressed Steel Fisher. These are four types of dispute, and it is important that the T.U.C. is prepared for them and has laid down machinery for dealing with those four different types of dispute.
    The T.U.C. has now laid down clearly—and this has been accepted by the vast majority of individual unions—first, that it is its right and duty to intervene; second, the basis of its intervention; and, third, its clear determination to deal effectively under Rule 13 of the T.U.C. with any union failing to accept the General Council's binding award—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite should study the whole history of 30 years' working of the Bridlington agreements. If they did, they would not try to interrupt me.
    Equally, the T.U.C. has taken powers to deal with any union which, having accepted any award, fails to take immediate and effective measures to require a return to work by any members who continue to stay out on strike in defiance of such an award.
    Anyone who knows the history of the T.U.C.—and many hon. Members know it—who knows, for example, its vigour in dealing with breaches or threatened breaches of the Bridlington regulations of 1939, will not under-rate this tremendous step forward. But in the matter of constitutional stoppages, not arising from inter-union disputes, "Programme for Action", in the Government's view—and I include particularly the proposed changes to Rule 11—was nothing like so firm or so likely to be effective as what had been proposed in the same document in inter-union matters.
    The negotiations which followed Croydon were directed—as I told the House during those negotiations—to inducing the T.U.C. to deal as effectively in the Rule 11 as in the Rule 12 case.
    The T.U.C. was clearly warned—and never in stronger terms than on the morning of the last day of the negotiations, Wednesday, 18th June, that if it could not strengthen this part of its proposals to meet our requirements, then the Government would proceed to legislation this Session to deal with it. And as many of my hon. Friends can confirm, my right hon. Friend and I made this clear to a

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    large meeting of my hon. Friends the previous evening.
    On Wednesday, the General Council agreed unanimously to a solemn and binding undertaking, set out in terms which had the effect of tightening the operation of its new machinery for dealing with unconstitutional disputes in a way which we considered likely to be as effective as any alternative, in a way in fact which met the requirement we had laid down in April and in all our discussions with them. The fact that it has exactly the same force—and indeed the same moral authority—as the Bridlington principles and regulations of 30 years ago, will not be underrated by anyone on this side of the House, or indeed by anyone else who knows what he is talking about.
    That category clearly does not include the right hon. Gentlemen opposite who thought they had made their ultimate contribution to industrial relations, when they managed to keep the number of Tory signatories on a Motion to two or three. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition did not rise to the occasion by showing his understanding of this problem anywhere, to judge either by his statement on television or by his speech in the great trade union centre of Wimborne Minster the following day.
    The House may accord greater authority to the views of Lord Stokes, Chairman and Managing Director of British Leyland. Few, if any, industrialists have been more uncompromising in their condemnation of unofficial disputes. Few perhaps have had cause to be. Yet he was reported in The Times last Wednesday as having praised the agreement between the Government and the trade unions for dealing with unofficial strikes as
    "One of the biggest industrial break-throughs in the United Kingdom in years".
    He said that of course time would tell whether the agreement to allow the unions to tackle the problem would be effective. [Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite are rubbing their hands in anticipation, having done nothing in the years when they were in office. But Lord Stokes was right to say, because he has acted in these matters, that this path must be tried.
    To quote one other leader of industry, two days later The Times reported
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    "a plea to give the Trades Union Congress a chance to make good its pledge about unofficial strikes"
    made by Sir Peter Runge, Chairman of the British National Export Council. He said:
    "Let's give the T.U.C. a chance to make good its promise. If it does, then the problem has been solved. If it does not, then objections must be withdrawn about making contracts binding under law. In the meantime, let's all stop bleating and get on with the job."
    That was said by Sir Peter Runge, and I have given the whole quotation, not a selective one.
    As the House knows, it is because of the binding undertaking the T.U.C. have now given and the fact that they have equipped themselves with powers to take firm action, that the Government have decided not to include the so-called "penal" sanctions in the legislation to be introduced next Session or in any legislation to be introduced during the lifetime of the present Parliament.
    No one pretends that what the T.U.C. has undertaken to do will end, still less avert, all unconstitutional stoppages. The right hon. Gentleman made that point clearly this afternoon. The vast majority of those stoppages, over 90 per cent., last not more than two or three days. The effect on exports, on industrial recovery and on employment of most of these is in fact relatively small. But the right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that this will not solve these problems; nor would our legislation and nor would the right hon. Gentleman's in the 90 per cent. of cases that I have mentioned. We must recognise this. In other and graver cases, there will be times when the accumulation of bitterness, the depth and strength of a grievance, real or imagined, make an early settlement difficult—perhaps, in some cases, impossible. There will be these cases. There will be these disappointments. Should this happen, I know that I can appeal to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to refrain from greeting every strike with the same partisan enthusiasm that they accord to a single month's disappointing trade figures.
    For my part, I would warn the House—all hon. Members in all parts of it—against underrating the determination of the 40 members of the General Council who made that binding undertaking at

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    Downing Street a fortnight ago. Many of them are known to and respected by very many right hon. and hon. Members of this House—indeed, in all parts of it. Many of them are distinguished trade union leaders who have been dealt with day by day by successive Conservative Ministers of Labour and other Ministers. They will not underrate either their determination or their ability. Many of the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose interventions a fortnight ago did themselves what I thought was less than justice, when they can look at these questions free of political passion, will not underrate some of the actions taken by the T.U.C. in the past fortnight, or the vehemence and determination shown by such speeches as that of Mr. Hugh Scanlon at the Confederation conference in Scarborough last week.
    It is only a fortnight since the agreement was reached, but that determination is not limited to speeches or the assertion of new powers. The House will not underrate what is going on industry by industry. Certainly no one will underrate the achievement by employers and trade unions in the shipbuilding industry to provide, in the first change in procedure since 1911, detailed machinery for dealing with demarcation problems in that industry.
    I want, finally, to deal with another aspect of this. The House has before it other proposals for dealing with these problems. I have referred so far to the record of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite when they were in power and the fact that they did nothing. They did not even set up an inquiry. I have referred to the reasons why we have accepted the sincerity of the T.U.C. General Council for dealing with these questions.
    Before I sit down, it would be right to refer briefly to the other proposals for dealing with the problems, namely, those of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I could argue—and I have—that their record when in power has disqualified them from any serious hearing. Nevertheless, their speeches contain proposals which have been seriously canvassed outside political party circles. Therefore, I propose to deal with them for a few minutes.
    Let me say right away, in view of the right hon. Gentleman's references to the
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    strikes which are happening today—for example, the strike on the Underground system—that if it is true, as it is, that the T.U.C. could not have dealt today with that situation, since it would have been impossible for it to have done so, if it is true, as I would acknowledge, that our legislation could not have dealt with it, since the time required for a conciliation pause could not have applied today, it is equally true that nothing in the legislation of right hon. Gentlemen opposite could have dealt with the situation. If their proposal is to give powers to the London Transport Executive to sue the union for not disciplining the strikers, they know that that would not have worked today or subsequently. If their proposal is to sue the individual strikers, despite all that the right hon. Gentleman said about ministerial intervention, that would require an initiative from Ministers themselves. Let us be reasonably modest and humble about what all our proposals would achieve. Let none of us take any delight, least of all in a strike which causes great harm, and let none of us make false claims about any particular means of dealing with them.
    I want to deal seriously with the right hon. Gentleman's own proposals for legislation, and I take as my starting point the question which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition put to me following my statement a fortnight ago. Very fairly, he put to me this question:
    "… what will happen when unofficial strikers ignore the advice of their union leaders, and go on striking?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1969; Vol. 785, c. 702.]
    I answered the question then, though he may not have been satisfied with the answer. But the same question can be put about his own proposals.
    As I understand those proposals, they would place an obligation on the unions concerned to get their recalcitrant members back to work. In "Programme for Action", as strengthened by the undertaking of 18th June, the union which fails to take action becomes subject to the penalties prescribed by the T.U.C.—penalties which no union would lightly risk facing.
    The key to the Conservative proposals—I admit that there is a parallel here—is that such a union would run the risk not of disaffiliation from the T.U.C. but

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    of an action for damages if it did not observe and ensure that its members observed the terms of a collective agreement, including the procedures for resolving disputes. How, under the Conservative proposals, would a union do that? It would have to use its rule book. The right hon. Gentleman thought that it was a bit cruel that they should use their rule books not only for fines and suspensions but for withdrawal of membership in a closed shop industry. But if one is to make a reality of forcing a union to discipline its members, one has to face that situation.
    Like the right hon. Gentleman, I agree that there should be a procedure of appeal to prevent individual members being harshly treated by their union. We are all agreed on that, and it was in our White Paper. The right hon. Gentleman will also be aware that, even while he has been making speeches about this, the T.U.C. has prepared a set of model rules to deal with this situation.
    The real argument between us is this. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite doubt the T.U.C.'s determination to invoke its penalties against a union which fails to deal with unofficial strikes. But how far can they be confident that employers would sue under their proposed legislation? Even the C.B.I. has considerable doubts about this.
    A few weeks ago, Mr. John Davies wrote:
    "There are those who argue for the enforcement of all collective bargains making them subject to the processes of the civil courts like any other contracts. But these agreements are not like any other contracts. On the work people's side they are often negotiated by unions who hold no authority to commit their members—let alone their non-members—to contractually binding conditions of work. If they did so, the need to express those agreements in legally effective language (making due provision for all the possible exclusions and reservations) would hopelessly undermine the validity of the agreements themselves. Moreover, the unlikelihood that enforcement would ever be seriously contemplated has already been emphasised in connection with action against individuals."
    He referred to that earlier in his article, and it is just as pertinent as it affects unions themselves.
    It is unrealistic to assume that employers would take action. Even after a long and bitter strike it is most unusual for a reasonably-minded employer to seek
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    to be vindictive. That is one reason why in so many settlements there is the agreement, "no reprisals, no victimisation". My right hon. Friend's experience in some recent major disputes has been that the employers have been, if anything, over-anxious to settle on very generous terms simply to get back into production. Would they be likely to stir up the whole issue once again by litigation, perhaps months after the settlement? I think that the same would apply whether it was a question of suing their own employees or suing the union to which those employees belong.
    Certainly the managements of the Tory newspapers who are demanding legal powers to sue in fact would be the last ever to sue. I pay them this tribute. Their whole record in these matters, once printing resumed, is the Christian principle of gently turning the other cheek.
    I can, of course, imagine one or two reactionary employers in other industries who might express a desire to teach their workers a lesson. But that would not be the best recipe for industrial relations.
    My second point for throwing doubt on the proposals of the party opposite is expressed for me in words better than any that I could choose in the Conservative campaign guide for 1964 which I quoted earlier:
    "It is problematical how far"—[Interruption.]
    The hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) learned this by heart. That is how he got his majority of three.
    "It is problematical how far it is right to hold unions responsible for the action of individuals—often taken in defiance of the union leaders' instructions. Certainly full liability for damages resulting from a strike could easily ruin a union overnight. This would provide an excellent opportunity for the extremists to obtain the power to ruin a trade union under moderate control. It would also do incalculable harm to industrial relations generally."
    My third point is more fundamental. The proposals of the right hon. Gentleman suggest that all agreements will be legally enforceable, unless both parties agreed that they should not be. In our White Paper we suggested that the law should be strengthened to provide that they should be enforceable if both parties agreed that they should be. But clearly the Conservative proposal means, if I

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    understand it aright, that either side—presumably the employers—could veto any suggestion that any agreement reached should not be enforceable.
    In practice this is totally unrealistic. What would happen would be that the union would refuse to make an agreement in such a case and the dispute would continue.
    But this is not all. I understand that the law which the right hon. Gentleman suggests should be introduced applies in the United States. I am told that in very few cases indeed does the employer take advantage of the law to sue a union for breach of agreement. Moreover, in almost all cases where an employer could have had a ground for action, the settlement of a dispute—and this is spelt out in terms when the dispute is settled—includes a commitment signed by both sides that no action will be taken either against the union or against its members.
    Take a dispute like Fords or Leylands, or the settlement of the Liverpool dock strike in October, 1967. It is not realistic to think that when a settlement is finally reached, perhaps after 12 or 18 hours negotiations—I remember that the Liverpool dock strike negotiations went on until nine o'clock in the morning—either side would wish to send for their lawyers to draw up an agreement which would stand the test of court action. One side, if not both, is usually too relieved to get the agreement. Many agreements at the end of the day—or night—as my hon. Friends will know from experience, may be little more than a few terms roughly drafted on the back of an envelope, often merely providing perhaps for an interim settlement combined with a return to work with detailed negotiations to follow. That is the most likely solution. We may all criticise such loosely drafted agreements. Of course it is unsatisfactory to have them on the back of an envelope. That is one of the reasons why we are laying so much emphasis on improving the quality of agreements.
    But there is another question. I was very interested in the television programme ten days ago when my right hon. Friend the First Secretary debated these issues with the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley). My right hon. Friend and the hon. Mem-
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    ber for Cheadle both asked the right hon. Gentleman, as I have asked, quoting the words of the Leader of the Opposition, what would happen under the Conservative proposals if the unofficial strikers ignored the trade union leaders' instructions. They took the point, which I did, of saying that it was a fair question to ask us, so we put the same question back to the Conservative Party. I hope that the House will excuse me if I read from the transcript, even if I am slightly out of order.
    "Castle: And what if their members don't honour the collective agreement—what happens to their individual members?
    Carr: The union is bound to use its best endeavours and we believe that this is the crux of the matter. If you can get a union to use its best endeavours, we believe that a large proportion of these troubles would come to an end…
    Castle: But Mr. Heath's Question to the Prime Minister was implying that the union was using its best endeavours. He said what if the unofficial strikers ignore the trade union leaders, ignore the union leaders who are using their best endeavours, and go on striking. What would you do then?
    Carr: In the last resort, in the very last resort, the same as you would have done in your proposals.
    Castle: Oh, you would.
    Winstanley: Well, there we are, you see."
    There we are indeed. No sign there of the great divide that we have heard so much about in the country; no sign of the great divide that we are supposed to be dividing on tonight.
    Mr. R. Carr: There is just one great divide. The Prime Minister has given up his proposals. We have not given up ours.
    The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman sees a great divide, I am prepared to go to the other side of it with him for this reason. We have now accepted and secured a much more effective way of dealing with something that his legislation could never touch.
    But the right hon. Gentleman made one very fair point in his statement which I have just quoted. I recognise that this was all off the cuff, but he made a good point. He said:
    "If you can get a union to use its best endeavours, we believe that a large proportion of these troubles would come to an end …"
    This is exactly what we want—[Interruption.] Although the right hon.

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    Gentleman spoke off the cuff, he could not have worded it better. In view of the interruption I will repeat what he said:
    "If you can get a union to use its best endeavours we believe that a large proportion of these troubles would come to an end …"
    This is exactly what we were concerned to ensure in these discussions with the T.U.C. And I put it to the House whether a union is more likely to use its best endeavours if required to do so as a result of a T.U.C. undertaking or if made subject to the unenforceable legislation which the party opposite has in mind.
    My view is clearly that what we are seeking, and what the right hon. Gentleman said that he was seeking, is far more likely to be achieved, and industrial relations improved, as a result of the T.U.C. undertaking.
    There are more things in the heaven and earth of industrial relations than are dreamt of in the philosophy of the Inns of Court Conservative Association whose symmetrically tidy proposals to the Donovan Committee no doubt inspired the Conservative proposals. Legislation has its rôle to play, but not that kind of legislation.
    Tonight, the House must decide. We have the Motion on the Order Paper. It does not say very much. It is an escapist and negative draft. It is like the right hon. Gentleman's reaction two weeks ago, ignoring the whole issue of industrial relations, when he went, via the Letter of Intent, which does not deal with industrial relations, to the Chancellor's Budget speech. We have that Motion which has been moved and we have the Government's Amendment. I have given my reasons why right hon. Gentlemen opposite, having failed to act when they had the power to do so, have no qualifications now to attack a Government which has acted and which, even more important, has ensured that the T.U.C. intends to act.
    I have given my reasons why the House should accept the determination of the T.U.C. to make a reality of its undertaking.
    I have given my reasons why the proposals of the Conservative Party break down totally when their tidy-minded lawyers run into the real facts of industrial relations in a democratic country.
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    For these reasons, I ask the House decisively to reject equally those parts of the Opposition attack which rest on advocating their own policies and those parts of their attack which seek to censure the Government for accepting the T.U.C. undertaking of 18th June, and to reject them not only for their defeatism, but for their malice.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irvine): Mr. Ray Mawby.
    Mr. Roy Roebuck: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I draw your attention to a considerable difficulty in which the House finds itself with regard to the documents relating to this debate. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to a book which set out the Opposition's position in 1964. This book, which is called "Cassandra at Westminster", is in extremely short supply. I have been round the bookshops trying to get a copy, but apparently all the copies have been bought by the Conservative Central Office. Is there any way in which the House can obtain a copy of this book? I managed to obtain one of the last copies from Foyle's, and I offer it to any hon. Gentleman opposite who wants to use it for the purpose of this debate.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for his help.
    5.40 p.m.
    Mr. Ray Mawby: The Prime Minister, as usual, made an amusing speech and raised laughs on both sides of the Chamber, but I am bound to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman should treat this occasion, or this subject, as a matter for hilarity. This matter ought to be taken much more seriously than the right hon. Gentleman took it, and I believe that the main reason why the Prime Minister took the line that he did was that he was trying to get out of an extremely difficult position.
    A few days ago I said in a supplementary question that the Prime Minister was to be congratulated on
    "the biggest confidence trick of the century."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1969; Vol. 785, c. 707.]
    I now have an opportunity to give a few more reasons why I made that allegation. Whatever the Prime Minister

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    may say—and he had some fun at the expense of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition—the important thing is that in addressing the T.U.C. in 1964, just before taking office, he himself put on one side the need for a Royal Commission. I need hardly repeat his comment that Royal Commissions take minutes and waste hours. The Prime Minister therefore goes down in history as another of those who decided that there was no reason at all for having a Royal Commission.
    It is significant that on taking office the Prime Minister then set up a Royal Commission. It is important to remember that there are two basic reasons for a Royal Commission. One is to obtain information which is not at one's disposal, and the other is to put off doing something which one firmly believes ought to be done. I believe that that is why the right hon. Gentleman set up the Donovan Commission, but it only put off the evil day, and there came a time when something had to be done.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer then took rather an extraordinary step when he made the need for legislation on industrial relations one of the key points of his Budget speech, and we must ask ourselves why this step was taken. I believe that it was taken because so many Ministers had committed the Government to ensuring that no further Prices and Incomes Bills would be brought before the House, and it was therefore important that something should be done instead.
    It is no coincidence that at the same time the Chancellor of the Exchequer was seeking to obtain another loan from the International Monetary Fund, and I believe that he had to show the Fund that he intended taking steps equivalent to, or better than, the prices and incomes policy. That being so, what better than to announce, as was done in the White Paper, that legislation would be introduced to grasp the nettle of the industrial relations problem?
    Since then there have been a number of statements by various Ministers, including the statement by the Prime Minister at the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting, about which a great deal has been said, when he made it clear that it was essential for this sort of
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    legislation to be enacted for the Government to remain in office.
    The Prime Minister this afternoon asked us to remember particularly what he said after that statement, and it is important to pay him the compliment of considering what he said, because he went on to say:
    "But of course if the T.U.C. can show us some method which is equivalent to, or better than, the proposals we intend to bring forward, then obviously we will consider them and take them into account in deciding what we will do in the future."
    The outcome was the conference at Croydon, but, as the Price Minister said this afternoon, the decisions taken at Croydon by the Congress of the T.U.C. did not satisfy either him or his right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State, and therefore further action had to be taken. What we have to realise is that any decision taken by the General Council following the Croydon conference can become binding on members of the T.U.C. only after it has been ratified by Congress in the autumn, and therefore none of these proposals has any backing except by voluntary agreement between the various members of the T.U.C.
    I should be the last person to suggest that the average union affiliated to the T.U.C. wants to play ducks and drakes with agreements, and particularly with agreements which have been solemnly made at No. 10, Downing Street. Of course it does not. In the main, there will be a desire on the part of most trade union leaders and their members to fall into line with the promises which have been made, but it needs only the maverick to throw the whole thing out of gear. Once the maverick says, "To hell with you, you have no power to do anything about it", the whole thing is thrown out of gear, and other people begin to take the same line, as happened during the discussions on the Prices and Incomes Bills.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: If the General Council of the T.U.C. has power to expel a union, it cannot be described as having no power.
    Mr. Mawby: The hon. Gentleman is helping me, because that is the only power which the T.U.C. will have when these proposals are ratified at the autumn Congress.

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    Let us recall one of the last occasions on which the T.U.C. threatened a union with disaffiliation. It threatened to disaffiliate my union, and it really frightened it to death!
    Hon. Members: It did.
    Mr. Mawby: When did it do that? This is important, because we are now studying history. They said that there were allegations that the general president had been elected on a false ballot and that the union would be disaffiliated if something were not done. The present secretary wrote back to the T.U.C. and said, in effect, "You go bowl your hoop, we are looking after our own affairs." Two members of the union took the case to the High Court, which finally decided, after costs of £75,000 had been rung up, that it was not a valid election. Then, the T.U.C. disaffiliated the union. In other words, the threat to disaffiliate had no effect on my union, and if those two members had not taken the case to court, it is possible that that man would still be president of the E.T.U.
    We are talking about practical questions. If the T.U.C. went to an association like the Glass Stoppers Union or some small organisation, the fact that it might be disaffiliated could put the fear of God into it. But for them to threaten the Transport and General Workers' Union with disaffiliation is rather like the C.B.I. threatening I.C.I. with being thrown out of that organisation.
    Mr. James Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union is a member of the General Council and was one who prepared the document which has been agreed by the T.U.C.
    Mr. Mawby: Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that that same man was a Minister when the first Prices and Incomes Bill was presented, and he ended by opposing the Bill. So that argument does not carry much weight.
    Mr. James Hamilton: To follow this a stage further, did not the T.U.C. itself oppose the Prices and Incomes Bill?
    Mr. Mawby: Yes, of course it did. I am only saying that this man was one of those concerned in producing the Bill. It may have been done in his absence,
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    but he was one of the group who at that time had Cabinet responsibility. He may have changed his mind. I have a great deal of respect for the man concerned, because he has a mind of his own and will not be pushed about. It is not a good suggestion that, because all these people were party to the agreement, their unions can always be guaranteed to carry it out. There are elections, and the leader of a union at that time may not be the leader when this matter is tested.
    There is this great difficulty. First of all, no action can be taken against any dissentients until Congress has passed it in the autumn, so the Government are risking a lot in relying on voluntary persuasion until then. Second, the threat of disaffiliation, even after the autumn Congress. will not have the sort of effect which many people think.
    I agree with the Prime Minister on this at least, that the T.U.C. General Council has gone a long way. The steps which it is taking are in the interests of everyone in the country, particularly those concerned with industrial relations. But the Prime Minister and the First Secretary have said all along that, if the T.U.C. proposes equivalent terms or terms better than the Government's, they would welcome them. But these do not come anywhere near an equivalent, because they contain no sanctions. Even if the majority of trade unionists abide voluntarily by the new T.U.C. arrangements, those who are not prepared to have any-think to do with them face no effective sanction, and we are back at the start.
    But the main reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced this item in his Budget was for external consumption rather than for consumption in this country. It was for export only. It was to convince the I.M.F. that we could still handle the additional 1,000 million dollars standby credit. It is no coincidence that we now have that standby credit. What is the point of running after a bus after you have caught it? The Prime Minister is in the same position as a man driving his wife and her mother when he turns around in exasperation and says, "Who is driving this car—me or your mother?" The Prime Minister has cynically presented to us another massive non-event. If this is all that he can do, I suggest that he make room for someone who can do it right.
    5.57 p.m.
    Mr. Douglas Houghton: All that the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) has done is pour scorn on the settlement reached with the Trades Union Congress, and doubt its effectiveness in practice. I do not think that his is very safe testimony to the sincerity and power of the T.U.C. Nevertheless, when he entered the House, he was a member of the E.T.U. and he may still be a member, so anything he says about the ballot rigging scandals of that union some years ago is obviously heard with interest.
    But I was on the General Council at the time. I regretted as much as anyone its limited powers to intervene in a union's internal affairs on matters like this. I deeply deplored what happened and I would advocate giving power to the Registrar of Friendly Societies to scrutinise the method of holding ballots and other matters of administration in trade union affairs so as to check malpractices. It surprises me that hon. Gentlemen opposite should be so keen on enforcing secret ballots before strikes without considering the weakness of the whole system of holding ballots in a number of unions, the practical difficulties of administration, the time they take to complete and the great difficulties of maintaining the secrecy and the integrity of the ballot. However, I will leave the hon. Gentleman and come to the Opposition's Motion.
    All that the Motion refers to is the Government's failure to fulfil their promise to introduce legislation on industrial relations this Session. This is all that the Motion is about. There is no word about the settlement reached between the Government and the T.U.C. The right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) had to be got to his feet by the Prime Minister before he would welcome that settlement. But this is an important part of the debate and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister left the Opposition with no credibility to be the movers of a Motion of censure on this matter.
    Mr. John Page rose—
    Mr. Houghton: I will not give way. I have only just begun.
    Mr. Ian Percival: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does
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    not want to be unfair. I recall my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) welcoming the settlement at the outset of his speech.
    Hon. Members: Where is he?
    Mr. Roebuck: Is he on strike?
    Mr. Houghton: If the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) is correct, it seems strange that his right hon. Friend had to repeat it. But I do not want to make a lot of that.
    It was never the Government's intention originally to introduce comprehensive legislation on industrial relations this Session. The White Paper of January was for discussion in the House, in the trade union movement and in the country generally with a view to introducing legislation next Session. The interim Bill was designed to deal with the narrower issues of ways of curbing inter-union disputes and unconstitutional strikes.
    I do not believe that the matter was put in the Chancellor's Budget speech to impress our overseas creditors, the bankers or anybody else. It was a convenient method of announcing to the House the Government's intentions on industrial relations legislation as well as the future of the prices and incomes policy.
    What the Government doubted at that time was whether they could get the T.U.C. to go far enough to remove the need for action by the Government. The settlement of 19th June produced assurances, to which I attach great importance, from the T.U.C. which enabled the Government to drop the interim Bill.
    The Motion, by inference, condemns the settlement. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is a Motion of censure on the Government for failing to keep their promise to introduce legislation. Thus, by inference, it condemns the alternative which the Government have found possible to adopt. If the Opposition condemn the Government for not keeping their promise to introduce legislation, they must, at the same time, be condemning the settlement. The great bulk of my hon. Friends feel that the Government were fully justified in regarding this settlement as a preferable alternative to legislation on the lines proposed in the White Paper.
    The right hon. Member for Mitcham said that we were going back and his

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    hon. Friend the Member for Totnes said that we were back to where we started. That shows how unable are hon. Gentlemen opposite to comprehend the significance of the advance that has been made by the T.U.C. We are going forward, to greater authority and power in the hands of the T.U.C., which is where it really belongs and where it should have been all along. All encouragement should be given to the T.U.C. to have it, and that encouragement should be supported by the House.
    The Leader of the Opposition considers that the Government have run away. The right hon. Member for Mitcham thinks that we are running away from reality and responsibility. The Leader of the Opposition considers that this has been some kind of battle in which casualties and chaos are of small account in the will to win. Both the Government and the T.U.C. wanted to curb unconstitutional strikes and do away with inter-union disputes. The differences between the Government and the T.U.C., serious though they were, were about methods. The Government wanted the T.U.C. to acquire a "do-it-yourself" kit and, failing that, the Government said, "We must see what we can do to help you by legislation".
    I confess that that approach went against the deeper understanding of the Donovan Commission. However, while the Government's judgment, on the merits and likely effectiveness of their proposals, was, in my view, wrong, their tactics proved to be right; and in reaching this settlement the Government did not run away or climb down. They got their way by climbing up, and they succeeded in putting the responsibility for unofficial strikes on the T.U.C.
    I believe that the T.U.C. should have been trying to seize more vigorously the assumption of these responsibilities. Donovan gave it the opportunity to do so, and there are grounds for criticising the delay and reluctance of the T.U.C. in moving forward to a position of greater authority and power. My right hon. Friend, in his brilliant castigation of the Opposition, tore the credibility of hon. Gentlemen opposite to shreds as he quoted enough in approval of the settlement to make it acceptable to the House.
    It has become the fashion, during the course of this long discussion about the
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    T.U.C. and the trade union movement, to disparage the T.U.C. We recall Low's cartoons which depicted the T.U.C. as an old carthorse. But we would be unwise to underrate the T.U.C. We would be wrong to claim that the courts, committal orders and bailiffs could do better. The country was glad of Ernest Bevin during and after the war. The country has been rewarded handsomely for putting its trust in the patriotism, wisdom and steadfastness of the trade union leaders during the last 30 years.
    We in Britain are fortunate in having only one trade union centre. Most countries have two and even three; and when there is more than one they are usually bitter rivals. They are divisive, competing for members and overbidding in demands. We have no religious or Communist unions and we have no unions divided by political dogma. Let us, therefore, be fair to the T.U.C.
    I was on the T.U.C. General Council for 10 years, the only Member at present who served on the council. I speak feelingly of my experience there and of my admiration for the responsibility and wisdom of the people with whom I worked. The T.U.C. has not been inactive for the last 40 years. The Bridlington principles, which were recently rediscovered and brought into service in the recent agreement, were introduced 30 years ago. How many strikes have arisen from inter-union rivalry, poaching and competing for membership? Can any hon. Member name one?
    Mr. Mawby: Yes.
    Mr. Houghton: This I must hear.
    Mr. Mawby: There was Torquay; the hotels dispute last year involving the Transport and General Workers' Union and the General and Municipal.
    Mr. Houghton: I am sure that that is a classic example. I asked for one and I got one. Torquay is obviously somewhat different from the general run of cases.
    Much more recently the Trades Union Congress amended the now well-known Rule 11 to enable the General Council to intervene in any dispute in which other bodies of workpeople might be involved or their employment imperilled. That was a very big step at that time. We have to remember that the Trade Union Congress is a federal body. Power must be

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    yielded from the unions to the centre and cannot be assumed at the centre without the consent of the unions.
    This is not only a matter of getting a majority vote; the General Council must have the support and co-operation of the unions mostly concerned with serious disputes and threatened stoppages. For that purpose I suppose that the consenting vote of the Inland Revenue Staff Federation would be useful, but scarcely conclusive. If the tax men went on strike, constitutionally or otherwise, the public might encourage them to stay out as long as possible, or longer if they could.
    The real significance of the vote at Croydon did not lie solely in the overwhelming numerical majority—the vote was almost unanimous. It lay in the fact that the two big unions mostly involved with this problem of unconstitutional strikes, the A.E.F. and the Transport and General Workers' Union were on the side of the General Council. The General Council could have got quite an impressive-looking vote, but, had those two unions been in the minority it would have been a meaningless vote. It is in the field of membership of those two unions that most unconstitutional strikes occur.
    I offer my assessment of the causes of a large number of these strikes. I believe that one of the chief troubles in the engineering and allied industries is parity of pay. When I looked at television the other night I saw the picture of a wall outside Leyland's on which was chalked, "Parity with the Midlands". We find that the two main grievances are parity and fair comparability. In my long experience, although only in a white-collar and Civil Service union, I found that when the absolute grievance of underpayment and hardship had been remedied, the comparative grievance came even more bitterly to the fore.
    The Prime Minister referred in his speech to the particular problems in parts of the engineering industry where components are manufactured over a very wide variety and area of firms, to be assembled centrally. There are considerable differences in pay and conditions between workers in one area and workers in another employed on almost identical work. This arouses deep dissatisfaction.
    Fair comparability is another feature of present-day conditions giving rise to a
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    great deal of dissatisfaction, and so are relativities. These are the grievances in modern trends towards mass production, mergers and other features of large-scale enterprise It is surprising to find what deep emotions these grievances can sometimes engender.
    I saw in The Times the other day, in Maurice Corina's article, a reference to what Mr. Ellis said. He is the managing director of British Leyland's bus and trucks division. He said that in the recent dispute at Leyland's the company had
    "not fully appreciated the emotional tenor behind the strike".
    That is very important in a strike of the dimensions and gravity of that at Leyland's.
    We should also bear in mind that the new General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress has been in office for only a few months and has not yet been finally confirmed in his appointment. Yet he is given this great responsibility and strain during the waiting period. There is a new General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union and the President of the A.E.F. came into office a relatively short time ago. These three men can change the scene on unofficial strikes if they are given the time and opportunity and if they use them. I venture the view that if the parity question could be given early attention that would go a long way towards reducing unconstitutional strikes in their area.
    Mr. Peter Mahon: Does my right hon. Friend concede that it was nothing but flagrant injustice that impelled men to take the action they have taken, and not emotion?
    Mr. Houghton: I am not denying the sense of injustice which led them to take the action they took. Indeed, I say that the sense of injustice did that and they felt deeply emotional about it.
    Prices and incomes policy should positively encourage a review of parities as a damper on explosive material. I say, give these men a chance. I think that the statement of 19th June enables them to take it. In industrial relations we are dealing with men and women at work where they spend most of their lives and where they want to get a great deal of personal satisfaction. New methods of production, the repetitive process, the

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    machine, the conveyor belt, the noise, all set up new forms of stress and strain. We also have entirely new problems of size and numbers. In numbers we have the emotions of the mass, of the crowd. A grievance can spread like a fire in a factory where there are thousands of workers.
    I thought that the Prime Minister dealt completely with the suggestion that a legally enforceable contract would be the answer to this potentially dangerous state of affairs. I wonder whether we know yet what the highly industrialised State with heavy concentrations of workers and population is doing to us. Shall we all become neurotic, unstable and ungovernable? Will congestion at work, at home, at play, on holiday, everywhere "send us round the bend"? These are all factors which we have to take into account.
    Disappointment with the Donovan Report sprang largely from a widespread expectation that human behaviour was easier to deal with and to control than it is. Management is the management of human nature and trade unions have to cope with that, too. Talk of discipline, getting men back to work and ordering men back to work—these are the problems of human nature and human behaviour. There are also one or two considerations of social and political philosophy.
    The right hon. Member for Mitcham referred to other countries. "Look abroad," he said. Comparisons between this country and some others, particularly the United States and Western Germany, are based upon a mistaken assumption that there is a common attitude towards monopoly capitalism and private enterprise. That is not so.
    Workers' attitudes in this country are deeply influenced by our industrial history. British trade unions have never really come to terms with private enterprise. They chafe at profits and dividends and other elements of the system which make capitalism work. We may think that they are wrong and that in a mixed economy they should drop all that and go along, but many trade unionists are not prepared to do so. They have social, economic and political aims which motivate them in their work as well as during their private time.
    Britain is going through a transitional period. We know all about economic
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    growth and even more about exports. We never cease to hear about exports. But in human terms there is a price for these things which workers are not prepared to pay. They are not prepared to be pushed around by the State or ordered back to work by bureaucratic trade union leaders. We are living in a free society and we must preserve democracy at all costs.
    The Tories have nothing to teach us about this. The only General Strike in this country took place under the Tories. The only punitive legislation against the trade unions was their Trades Disputes Act of 1927. This exiled me from the T.U.C. for 20 years; and they subjected my members to the discipline and threat that unless they joined a union which had a certificate of respectability they would lose their jobs. That was the Trades Disputes Act of 1927; and the greatest moment in Ernie Bevin's life, he confessed, was the day he was able to announce the repeal of that 1927 Act, lock, stock and barrel.
    May I suggest in a friendly way that that might have given pause to Her Majesty's Government. I believe that legislation now will be unnecessary in that particular respect. The more comprehensive Bill that we await will be one of the great reforming measures for trade unions since the Liberal Trade Union Acts of 1906 to 1913 and what I ask, in conclusion, is: who are the Tories to complain of that?
    6.20 p.m.
    Mr. John H. Osborn: We have had an interesting debate. My contribution at this stage will be a short one and will not deal necessarily with the recent history of trade union reform, but rather with the problems we have to face in this House of Commons and the problems connected with future legislation to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) has just referred.
    We are today debating a Motion, which I will support, condemning the Government for breaking the promise given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech to implement without delay during the present Session new legislative provision for industrial relations. We are debating a change of mind, a climb-down. I decline to follow the Prime Minister in analysing what has happened in the past, because the

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    past, to a large extent, is dead. The nation, and particularly Londoners tonight, are concerned with today and the future. I would suggest that some reference to today and the future is more important than what has gone before.
    I wish to make my position clear. In view of the work of the Select Committee on Members' interests I do not think that it is necessary for me to declare my interest as a one-time executive, a Conservative politician and subsequently as a Member of this House. I have been concerned with two aspects of industry. One is modernisation in the technological sense, the other is very much in terms of industrial relations and what goes on in the factory.
    I confess I have learned much since I first spoke on this subject in 1947—the occasion of my first political speech was on the Conservative Industrial Charter. We must recognise the fact that much has changed since then. I hope that in this debate we may accept this fact, because my concern has been on industrial relations and relations affecting men working together, living in a community, as well as within the factory.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) will know—and this point has already come out in the debate today—that about 10 years ago I supported my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), at that time Minister of Labour and other Ministers of Labour, in that I was opposed to legislation in this field. I make no excuse for that, because this was the view held by many people in industry at that time. I found that my views were conditioned not only by senior management at the time, but by personnel and on line management in industry and trade union leaders at the time whom I had occasion to meet. It was a remarkable fact that their views coincided with the views of hon. Members opposite at that time. The Prime Minister has referred to the fact that the Conservative Party had done nothing during 13 years but if the Conservative Party had attempted to introduce legislation at the time I entered this House they would have had to face the opposition of the Labour Party, the then Opposition, with-
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    out any doubt, and would have had no support at all for such action.
    The failure of the T.U.C. to put its own house in order in the early 1960s caused me and many hon. Members on this side of the House to have a change of mind. It was perhaps my own M.P. at the time, the then Member for West Derbyshire, Mr. Aidan Crawley, who crystallised the change of mind that took place in my own mind and within the Conservative Party. It convinced me that my approach was not sufficiently positive and for the last five years I have fully supported the hard work, first, of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and more recently of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham which has resulted in the preparation of the document "Fair Deal at Work".
    The whole question of legislation in this field today, for a variety of reasons, has now become a highly emotional subject. I would suggest that too few hon. Members on both sides of the House, let alone people outside it, know what is involved. But just as marriage laws and, for that matter, divorce reform have led not so much to happier marriages, but to a greater knowledge of what is involved, so too, I believe, legislation will rationalise relationships in our industrial society in years to come.
    But today I wish to join the criticism of my hon. Friends on this side of the House at the way in which, in the last six months, the Government have handled, or I would say mishandled, the situation—to use the words of the Minister of Transport earlier, a delicate situation.
    It could well be that in the action he has taken the Prime Minister may have had no intention of introducing legislation at the present time. It could be that he has led the right hon. Lady the First Secretary of State down the garden path. History alone will tell what has happened. I suspect that his public relations advisers have told him of the results of the Gallup Poll, and that action in this field would be essential if he was to be able to have terms of reference which would justify an appeal to the electorate at some future election.
    But today the misfortunes of those who work and live in London have provided testimony—and this concerns all of us in one way or another, but in this case those affected by the signalmen in

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    London Transport—of the way in which a few people can hold industry and people in the nation's factories to ransom.
    I was suspicious when the Chancellor of the Exchequer chose a Budget speech to refer to this legislation. Because I wish to be brief I will not refer to the many quotations and contradictions from Government Front Bench spokesmen. But that part of the Prime Minister's speech which I heard—and I had to leave the debate to attend the Standing Committee on the Iron and Steel Bill for half-anhour—reminded me of the typical speech one would normally expect at the hustings. It was worthy of the music hall, but unworthy of a Prime Minister.
    So much for my opinion. But I wonder what the country will think of the Prime Minister's speech when it is read tomorrow.
    I was sickened by the attack of the Government on the Conservative Front Bench about doing nothing during those 13 years. I was sickened by the endeavours of the Prime Minister to create political strife at this time, rather than to eliminate it. I am sickened because the Prime Minister's speech was irrelevant to the issues which face the nation today. Many of my hon. Friends share this view.
    The perpetual conflict that takes place within the trade union movement is not unlike the perpetual conflict that has taken place within the Labour Party. I am aware of this, not with the intention of being destructive but because many of us understand the differing motives to which the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) referred, the similar factors which motivate Members of the Labour Party and those in the trade union movement; but if I elaborated on this I would be on my feet for much too long.
    Where do we go from here? What is now to be done to improve industrial relations? Let us look ahead. It has been my experience over many years both within the group of companies, with which I have been connected, and outside, that the man on the shop floor in the factory is concerned not so much with his relationship with his employer, as with his trade union. Anything to rationalise this situation, whether or not it is by legislation, will appeal to many in our industries today. There are those who work in the car industry, the steel industry and other industries who are tired of the
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    fact that it is possible for men in key positions to prevent them going on working. There are men whose families are sick of having to scrap holidays and who would welcome a higher degree of stability. Any action that will produce greater stability will be welcomed by many workers on the shop floor, let alone their families.
    The fact is that the Government have made a solemn and binding agreement with the T.U.C. that the T.U.C. will put its house in order. I have managed to obtain a photostat copy of "Programme for Action", and I share the view that much progress has been made within the trade union movement. I have known Victor Feather for many years—not personally, but in the sense of not only having listened to him, but of having from time to time met and spoken to him—and I have great respect for his determination and judgment. I know that he will endeavour to carry out the agreement to the best of his ability, and many others who know him respect his ability to tackle the situation.
    But there are reservations. He has warned us not to expect results too quickly, and there are questions whether or not the T.U.C. is in a position to bring about the order within the trade union movement that it wishes to achieve. If it succeeds, the nation and all of us in the House will be grateful. The problem is not one of disparaging the responsibility of the T.U.C. at present. The right hon. Member for Sowerby spoke about a breakthrough. Time alone will show whether the T.U.C. can succeed now that it has been given and accepted new terms of reference.
    Therefore, the debate is about serious problems. I want to deal with the serious problem of improving industrial relations, irrespective of the type of legislation introduced in the next Session, and assuming that that legislation will be good. The man on the shop floor has always been regarded as primarily a member of a trade union. But it is equally true that far too many employers and industrialists in senior and middle management talk about the men in their organisation not as being part of that organisation but refer to their employees, the men on the shop floor, as trade unionists, when primarily they are members of a production team, an industrial team. We are wrong to talk about men—
    Mr. Simon Mahon: The hon. Gentleman is wrong to talk about men being economic machines and units of production. When a man goes to work he is the husband of the wife and the father of the children, and he is a good member of a trade union because he has learned that the trade union movement has maintained the dignity of himself and his family over 50 or 60 years. That is why he is a good trade unionist.
    Mr. Osborn: I am not arguing that any individual should not be a good trade unionist. There is nothing wrong about the man on the shop floor being in a trade union. This is right, but he is also a member of a production team. Too many men on the shop floor regard it as natural that their primary loyalty is to their trade union, and too many of their employers treat them as trade unionists when they have a loyalty as members of a production team. This is surely a new attitude to work which must be built into industry, and I would have thought that hon. Members opposite would agree with this.
    Much has gone wrong over the years. Too many people in professional management have accepted the practice that they hire their labour through the trade union. This might be one of the problems in the printing trade. In too many instances the trade union determines whether or not a man should gain employment [Interruption.] If hon. Members disagree with this fact, they should say so in their speeches.
    In addition, too many managers make the mistake of communicating with their shop floor through the convenor or senior shop steward. This is perhaps where management is failing. It is not the job of a convenor or shop steward to convey to the shop floor the wishes of management. It is surely the job of management to do this; practice has caused management to fall down in this responsibility over the years. In many cases the convenor is not the best qualified, because he can pass on only what he wants to pass on.
    The Prime Minister referred to education as part of the "Programme for Action". I welcome this, but we must also remember that if top management communicates to the shop floor through the convenor or shop steward it cuts out the line of communication through
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    the foreman. When I ran a shop. 15 years ago. I had that direct link with the shop floor. As a unit becomes larger, the link between top management and the shop floor through the foreman and supervisors is most important. But they must have the right qualifications for this aspect of the job.
    These are the issues that must be tackled. If too many in management are not articulate, then there is a need to provide training so that middle management is able to convey ideas and policy to the shop floor, to enter into arguments where necessary. Too often this task is delegated to the shop steward. Would this change be a welcome feature in industrial relations to the trade unions and hon. Members opposite? I raise this question because today's debate has been about legislation, penal clauses and attachment of earnings.
    I have spoken on the need for good communications and good management, but good management and good industrial relations are complementary to good industrial legislation. Surely the trade unions would agree that the man on the shop floor—even if he is primarily a trade unionist, to concede the point made by the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon)—is part of a production team? If there is good communication, the legislation we propose will but provide the background to good industrial relations.
    Much has been done to improve the situation and attitudes with the Industrial Training Act and the Contracts of Employment Act, for example. There are new moves for agreements between employer and employee.
    What should go now into the productivity bargains? Pay and remuneration, yes, but also, surely, opportunities, in working time if necessary, for foremen and middle management to talk to men on the shop floor? Today, there are the problems of amalgamations and mergers, which inevitably cause turbulence on the shop floor. There are the threats of redundancy and insecurity which cause this uncertainty. Is it not the business of top management to brief middle management, and middle management to brief the shop floor? When there is a problem, does the foreman tell the man on the shop floor what is going on? Has management itself communicated to the shop floor adequately, is it

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    allowed to? Today this is of paramount importance.
    Good law does not bring about good industrial relations, but it is complementary to those good relations. There is argument about what constitutes good law. I believe that resort to special courts is preferable to arbitrary powers in the hands of a Minister. That is why I support many of the proposals of "Fair Deal at Work". But ultimately, whether we are dealing with the proposals of the White Paper, "In Place of Strife", or the Conservative document "Fair Deal at Work", discipline is dependent on a code supported by legislation. Primarily, this code concerns both management and the trade unions, but ultimately, in the last resort, it concerns the individual and his relations with both.
    Today, there is the question of unofficial strikes in the docks, London Transport and British Leyland. If, in the ultimate, the legislation we are proposing means that this type of conflict goes to the special industrial courts for investigation, it will be right that the management should be asked whether its communications have been adequate and good. It will be right that the shop stewards and the trade unions should be asked whether they have done their utmost. If the management has failed, it should be fined. If the union has failed, it, too, should be fined. But if both have carried out a recognised procedure, there must be the ultimate sanction on the individual if he acts unconstitutionally. That, however, must be put in the background as the last feature of any penal clauses allowed to come forward.
    This is what we have to decide when discussing future legislation. It faces us in Parliament. The Prime Minister referred to the Commission on Industrial Relations. Mr. George Woodcock has been appointed its Chairman and I hope that the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity will outline in greater detail what he is now doing. There should now be talks going on between the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. on how to improve industrial relations. What progress is being made?
    I have not spoken in detail about the current political conflict and I am not interested in past history. The nation wants to know what we in Parliament will do next. I hope that hon. Members
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    will address their minds to this feature, but the Government have been inconsistent and have changed their mind.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Many hon. Members wish to speak, so I hope that we shall have some short speeches to follow.
    6.42 p.m.
    Mr. George Darling: I shall follow your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker—it can hardly be called an instruction, although I have proposed in the past that the Chair be in a position to instruct hon. Members to sit down if they go on too long.
    The main object of my speech is to prove, if proof be needed, that penal sanctions in the kind of legislation that has been proposed will not work, will poison industrial relations, will lead to endless litigation, will serve no useful purpose and will be generally disastrous. There is no need to go into detail. I think that it is generally understood and the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) has given me my case.
    I have spoken to many industrialists in Sheffield and I am sure that the hon. Member will agree that I am not a stranger to them. Whenever I have had the opportunity to do so, I have asked them what they thought, first, about the Government's proposals, and then about the Opposition's proposals to enforce, as it were, industrial peace by the use of penal sanctions, by the introduction of a criminal law. In every case, they were in favour of such proposals, provided that they applied to the dockers, the transport workers, and, in one case, to the people who build exhibitions, but never inside their own factories.
    The hon. Member for Hallam is the only industrialist from Sheffield I have come across who seems to be in favour of using penal sanctions for keeping industrial peace in his own factory. He knows that, given the situation in Sheffield, where we have some very good and sensible employers and very good and responsible trade union leaders, there is little chance of getting unofficial strikes in his or any other company. But if an industrial dispute did occur—I leave his firm alone for the moment—in a certain company and penal sanctions were used against the unofficial strikers, I can tell the hon. Gentleman precisely

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    what would happen in Sheffield if the strikers were hauled into court.
    If they were found guilty of breaking an agreement, and if fines were imposed on them, and those fines were attached to their wages, every industrial works in Sheffield would stop at once. There would be sympathy strikes all over the place and the situation would get completely out of hand.
    I will throw my notes away about why I believe—having had considerable experience of reporting, explaining and commenting on industrial disputes; I used to get paid for it—that penal sanctions will not work. I make only two observations about it. If we are to have penal sanctions, we must provide defences. We cannot have a criminal law which, in effect, says that, if the prosecution can prove that workmen have broken an agreement, they are automatically guilty of the offence without any defence whatever. To have such a law would assume that all our industrial agreements are prefectly reasonable, that there is nothing wrong with them, that the men who have broken them have never been provoked by unreasonable agreements into breaking them. The employers will not break agreements.
    It is nonsensical to suggest that a penal law such as proposed would apply equally both to workers and employers. Employers will not break agreements. The agreements will be broken when the workpeople are provoked by something into breaking them. They may be right or wrong, but what they have to have in a law of this kind is a defence. They have to be able to get up in court and say that the agreement was such that it was unreasonable in the circumstance. They have to be able to defend themselves if, in the circumstances, they have somehow been provoked into action.
    As soon as that defence is written into the law, as it must be—for we cannot have a criminal law which provides no defence—not a single case will be settled. Perhaps that is an exaggerated claim, for some people will want to settle. Most employers will. Unless the employers drop the case, litigation will go on and on and on. It must be remembered that, in these circumstances, the T.U.C. and the unions would not be co-operating. They would not co-operate if penal sanc-
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    tions were in the background. If Parliament has decided not to trust the unions and the T.U.C. to carry out agreements, there will then be no co-operation from them and, therefore, the courts will have to decide in many cases of unofficial strikes. There will then be appeals and litigation will go on. It will be a lawyer's paradise and solve nothing.
    Mr. J. H. Osborn: I emphasised the importance of good industrial relations. Penal sanctions I put as one of the last items on the list of industrial legislation, there being many other items to put in before then. But we must not run away from that issue.
    Mr. Darling: I shall come to that, but when the hon. Gentleman talked about the "ultimate sanction", I thought that he had in mind the prospect of shooting them.
    I want to follow up the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). Many hon. Members opposite and, I think, the Leader of the Opposition, have said that the Government gave way not only to the T.U.C. and the unions, but to Left-wing pressure. I want to make it clear that the views I hold against penal sanctions I held long before the Donovan Commission was set up and that I still hold those views even after the speech of the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr). I do not believe that sanctions, the kind of law he was talking about, would work.
    But the idea that my right hon. Friends were persuaded to drop the interim Bill by the pressure of my Left-wing friends is nonsense. Those of us who hold the views which I hold go right across the Labour Party. The fact that we did not speak very much in public while this controversy was going on should not lead hon. Members opposite to believe that we had no influence on the decisions.
    Mr. Peter Crowder (Ruislip-Northwood): I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman's views on penal sanctions. In any event, no jury would convict anyone on that basis. There was, of course, a case when Lord Goddard sat and the Lord Chancellor prosecuted, and three people on the jury said that, if they were to carry out the law, they would find the men guilty, but they could not do so. Would the right hon. Gentleman give us the benefit of his knowledge and

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    experience about a breach of civil contract, on the basis of damages? I should like to hear him on that.
    Mr. Darling: I undertook to be brief. I have views on this as well. I understand that civil damages can be claimed now if any employer wishes to sue the trade union concerned. The simple answer is that, because the law exists already, it can be invoked by employers, but I am sure that it would exacerbate industrial disputes. I certainly cannot think of any cases where it has been used in recent years.
    In any case, we should bear in mind that if damages were given not against a union but against unofficial strikers, they would not pay a penny. If legislation of this kind had been used, funds to pay the damages would be set up in every works, every factory, every coal mine, every dockyard and shipyard in the country, and by such means as running football pools the money would not be difficult to find. So do not let us have any talk about civil damages. The fact that it is not used is evidence that the employers do not want it.
    I want to follow up references by hon. Members opposite to the fact that the trade unions have now given undertakings which are not good enough, and that something better should be done. The hon. Member for Hallam is the only one so far who has tried to spell out the responsibilities of management. The trade union agreement could be criticised. The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) said yesterday that the Prime Minister had knuckled under to the unions. He and every one of us could criticise this agreement and cast judgment on it, because it was arrived at openly. The discussions have gone on ever since the publication of the White Paper, in public. There have been no secret discussions, the public have been brought into them all. The Trades Union Congress was on television. The Press have been sleeping in Downing Street, so far as I can see, throughout these discussions. Nothing has been withheld from them. I am sure that every hon. Member will agree that serious political and public issues of this kind should be discussed in public.
    Now let us have some response from hon. Members opposite. What discussions have their Front Bench been having
    718
    with the C.B.I.? What have they been cooking up? I intended to elaborate this, but I have such a respect for the right hon. Member for Mitcham that I will not hold him responsible for what goes on among his right hon. Friends. Is it not about time that the C.B.I. called a public conference of employers' organisations who are members of the Confederation? Let us have a public discussion on the terms of a code of practice which the employers should now adopt to match what the T.U.C. has done. This is the one way of carrying out the proposals from the hon. Member for Hallam.
    One of the most regrettable features of this public debate is the instant criticisms of what the Government have been doing by the director of the C.B.I. He has made utterly irresponsible statements which have done a good deal of harm to the prospects of getting industrial peace. I regret that I have to say this, because Mr. John Davies is a friend of mine. When I was at the Board of Trade I had dealings with him over a whole range of industrial legislation, in which found him constructive and helpful in every way.
    The reason that he behaves irresponsibly in this business, in my opinion, is that he has not a great deal of experience of handling labour relations in industry. We must help him: he deserves to be helped. Therefore, I want to make a number of suggestions about what an open conference of employers' organisations should be called together to discuss.
    It should discuss a code of practice, which should be laid down as a condition of membership of the member firms of the C.B.I. Why not? if they believe in getting management to take responsibility, let us see them take responsibility. Let them carry out the proposals of the hon. Member for Hallam. One thing which they should do is insist that, in every member firm, labour relations are in the hands of a senior director, not a personnel officer with no contact with the board of management. Such a man should have the authority to take decisions on behalf of the board.
    The hon. Member said that many of these disputes arise because there is no proper communications from management to the shop floor—and the same is true the other way round. Every company, surely, should have an established

    719
    procedure, which will work, for the quick examination of grievances. There should be a joint committee, called a grievances committee, perhaps, of shop stewards and management, with authority to take decisions to get rid of grievances, many of which start by being small but which, if allowed to fester, create industrial disputes.
    I am sure that every firm must make arrangements to inform employees and union representatives of management policies and arrange for prior consultations on projected policies which, when they are carried out, will affect the jobs and terms of employment of the men. We should ask them to adhere to these and many other undertakings as a condition of being involved in the general discussions on industrial relations. I hope that the C.B.I. will respond to my suggestions. I hope, also, that the Opposition will use their influence to help us to get open discussions about managerial responsibilities, as we have had open discussions about the part that the trade unions can play in all this work.
    7.0 p.m.
    Captain Henry Kerby: I hope that the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) will forgive me if I do not follow him in detail. It is not that I wish to be discourteous to him, but rather because I wish to deal with one or two remarks made earlier by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
    The Prime Minister in the opening passages of his long speech referred to a Motion put on the Order Paper of this House in 1959. I was the Member who put down that Motion, and I did so on 27th October. Since it has been mentioned, the House might like to hear the terms of the Motion:
    "Activities of trades unions:
    That this House, having regard to the original conception of trades unions as bodies with the proper purpose of providing negotiating machinery between employers and employees, but recognising that their organisation is now used by irresponsible persons to paralyse any section of industry, however vital to the national economy, urges Her Majesty's Government to set up a Royal Commission forthwith to inquire into the law relating to the activities of trades unions, with a view to preventing these being abused by unofficial strikes, demarcation disputes, picketing and
    720
    other customs leading to intimidation and to victimisation of workers, and the holding of the community as a whole to ransom."
    On that first occasion my Motion attracted a mere five signatures besides my own. I put down that same Motion in four subsequent years and it never collected more than a fist full of signatures from what were then the back benchers of a Conservative Government.
    I put down that Motion because it seemed to me that a Royal Commission appointed to look into the affairs of trade unions was an essential prerequisite to any reform in the intractable field of trade union relations. Nevertheless, I can claim, with some pride, that my Motion was not altogether ignored, in that, ironically enough, it was the present Prime Minister who set up the Donovan Royal Commission.
    The Donovan Report was followed by the White Paper "In Place of Strife" of the right hon. Lady the First Secretary. She got her strife all right, leading to her total surrender to the trades unions!
    Everyone knows that trade union reform and trade union legislation are needed now. The overwhelming mass of the British people know this. The majority of honest trade unionists and their wives know it, although perhaps they dare not say so openly. The international moneylenders know it, and they have said so quite openly. The bosses of the Common Market, the Herr Professors and the political bosses in Europe know it. Yet the T.U.C., which took 50 years to produce "Programme for Action", say "Leave it all to us."
    What faith can the ordinary man in the street have in these promises? Apart from being a Member of this honourable House I am an ordinary man in the street; I am neither a trade unionist nor an industrialist. How can anybody believe these promises? I am not saying that the trade union leaders will not try. Of course they will try. I am sure that they will try their best, but I am afraid that they will fail, because the T.U.C. has not and never has had the strength to reform the trade union movement from within.
    Mr. Feather is reported as saying this on 17th May:
    "Laws don't make cars and Acts of Parliament don't build ships. Laws make work for lawyers …"

    721
    He has a point there!
    …"They don't contribute much to exports."
    There, in my judgment, we have it. Within the philosophy of the trade unions Parliament is irrelevant. The laws which we pass here are equally irrelevant. The unions regard themselves as above the law of the land. They intend to remain above the law of the land, and would have been quite prepared to remove any Government that tried to interfere with their personal privileges. That seems to be the view of the trade unions.
    There is another view which I am convinced is shared by millions of people throughout Britain, ordinary, hard-working, honest, patriotic people, many of whom will be walking home tonight. These people very properly ask: What of these vicious, never-ending, interminable, wildcat strikes, these go-slows, the childish demarcation disputes, working to rule, the closed shop; what of the intimidation of honest workers and what, above all else, of the holding of the community to ransom by the militants of the trade union movement? What do all these actions do to help British exports? The House and the country know the answer as well as I do. The unending pattern of post-war industrial-economic disruption has led more than any other single factor to devaluation and to the present grim mess that the nation is in today.
    The Prime Minister has pointed out, not today but on another occasion, that 95 per cent. of our strikes are unofficial and that the vast majority of these are also unconstitutional. I have no doubt that he had his figures right. One should note in this connection the words of Professor Ben Roberts, Professor of Industrial Relations at the London School of Economics. Writing in the Sunday Times of 1st June, he said this:
    "In practice very few unofficial strikes are called in defiance of the union. A great many, certainly most of the important ones, are either instigated, connived at or acquiesced in by the union officials concerned. The unions have in fact tacitly institutionalised unofficial strikes."
    To me that passage has the ring of truth because, unlike some, but not all, trade union leaders, Professor Roberts has no axe to grind.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that, over many
    722
    years, more than 50 per cent. of official strikes have started life as unofficial strikes?
    Captain Kerby: No, I was not aware of that and it does not alter my argument, because what I am coming to now occurred almost exactly 10 years ago. Ten years ago my right hon. Friend the present Leader of the Opposition, who was at that time Minister of Labour, did not perhaps altogether approve of my humble Motion. That is putting it with my usual tact. Today, however, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition—like Atalanta, the swift-footed huntress—has outpaced us all with his new and far-reaching proposals for reforming and policing the jungle of British industrial relations, from shop floor to board room, by making industrial contracts legally binding, and by bringing unions at long last under the rule of law.
    I believe that when my right hon. Friend's proposals find their way on to the Statute Book they will be a foundation upon which future governments, and not least the next Conservative Government, will be able to build and above all to strengthen.
    Accordingly, tonight I shall vote for the Opposition's censure Motion.
    7.12 p.m.
    Mr. James Hamilton: It is most unfortunate that the House should have listened to a speech such as that just made by the hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby). At a time when industrial disputes are reaching the headlines in the national Press, it is unbecoming of the Opposition to add fuel to the fire and to give the Press a very false impression of industrial disputes.
    It is a well known fact that I and many of my hon. Friends voted against the White Paper, "In Place of Strife". We did so because we were firmly convinced that it was unnecessary to operate penal sanctions, or even a conciliation pause or the balloting of members. As one who carried out many of the negotiations with the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity, I can assure the House that I found them to be very tough negotiators indeed.

    723
    It is also a well-known fact that the Prime Minister, on every occasion, without exception, made it abundantly clear that even if at the eleventh hour the trade union movement was prepared to measure up to its responsibilities then, and only then, would the Government depart from the penal sanctions. It is quite true that all our discussions were in public. The trade union group in the House always issues a Press report after every meeting, and the meetings of the Parliamentary Labour Party receive a great deal of attention in the Press and are widely reported.
    The T.U.C., for the very first time, held a special conference, only the second of its kind in 100 years. The conference was convened simply because the Government had made it perfectly clear that they were dissatisfied with the absence of T.U.C. authority at central level. If the Government have done anything, they have certainly made the trade unions move in the right direction, and now for the first time the trade union movement has that power at central level.
    I was talking only this morning to Victor Feather. He should be attending a meeting of the World Federation of Free Trade Unions in Brussels, but because of the industrial disputes that are now taking place in this country he is not attending the conference, but is staying here to play an important rôle in attempting to achieve the solutions that we all desire.
    Before the agreement was reached, the T.U.C. had no power at all to intervene in a dispute. What used to happen was that the trade union involved could, if it so desired, seek the guidance or advice of the T.U.C. But, once that advice was given the representatives from the T.U.C. had to step out of the arena. The situation has now dramatically changed. The T.U.C. now has the power to move in at a moment's notice.
    Having been on trade union business on Monday and Tuesday of this week, I know that a circular letter has been sent out by Congress House telling trade unions, not asking them, to get their rule books to conform to the agreement reached between the T.U.C. and the Government. In accordance with that circular, many trade unions are operating that particular rule. Those trade unions
    724
    which do not have it laid down in their rule books will be required to include it.
    The Opposition have made a great deal of play about this matter. When they were in power the trade unions, of their own volition, within their constitutions, could expel, fine, or suspend members. All this went on when the Conservatives were in power. There is nothing new in it.
    Another important aspect is the fact that there is a departure away from national agreements. Whenever do we hear of a dispute about the violation of a national agreement? We have not had any serious stoppage for a very long time because of any difference of opinion between the trade unions and employers at national level. Where differences do arise is at plant or factory level. As the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) has said, the lines of communication, in many cases, are not what they should be. It is not good enough for an employer to put up on a notice board that such and such a thing will happen tomorrow at 0.800 hours and expect human beings to react without putting forward a contrary point of view.
    In the matter of exports, which are of great concern to us all, four of the very good employers in my constituency have been given the Queen's Award for exports. In every case I know that they have very good communications with their workers. They have weekly meetings without an agenda, and then every month they have a meeting with an agenda. Before anything new is put into operation, it is discussed in a reasonable fashion. Once the shop stewards and officials are convinced, there is no difficulty in convincing the rest of the workers. From long experience in industry over many years I firmly believe that, if negotiations carried out by shop stewards and management are channelled through to the full-time officials who are accredited officials of their unions and registered with the national executive of the union, there will be no difficulty at all. Some agreements are actually signed by trade union stewards quite outside the constitution of their own union. This cannot be tolerated.
    Reference has been made to the Girling dispute, which nobody with any sense of responsibility would condone. At the same time, there is one important aspect

    725
    about which we have not heard. Because of the part played by the manager in the Girling dispute or because of his inefficiency or incompetence, he was demoted to deputy manager. He would not accept the demotion and he was "fired". That means, in essence, that there were weaknesses on the side of Girling's management.
    In his circular letter to the affiliated bodies within the Confederation of British Industry, John Davies added fuel to the fire and did a disservice to the country. He has made it crystal clear that before he subscribes to any legislation, and before there is any possible chance of peace in industry, we must have the return of a Conservative Government. Thai is totally irresponsible.
    We had a terrible job getting our Government to move from the penal clauses and the conciliation pause period. After listening to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister today, I am convinced that for the first time since I came to this House he has paid some attention to my right hon. and hon. Friends. We feel that we can put forward a tangible point of view about industry.
    The problem is this. Every paper without exception carries the banner, "Irresponsible Trade Unions". However, Vic Feather told me this morning that since the T.U.C. took its decision at Croydon, six disputes have been settled before getting off the ground. He is also optimistic about the dispute in the docks because of the attitude of Jack Jones and the union at national level. It is hoped that, for once, we will get some semblance of discipline in the docks.
    I do not purport to be able to put forward a point of view about the docks. However, my information is that the conditions of work in the docks are unbelievable in this year, 1969. No human being with any semblance of respectability could tolerate them and, until such time as we get the necessary ingredients in the industry, there will not be the peace to which we all look forward.
    I do not want to hammer the Opposition. In this sort of debate we have to try to go some way towards solving our industrial problems. The Donovan Commission was set up by the present Government. Its report was discussed in the House because the Opposition
    726
    were so intent on getting the Government to introduce legislation that they used one of their Supply days so that it could be debated. Following that, we had put before us "In Place of Strife". When we debated that, the Opposition abdicated responsibility in not voting. They sat on the fence and, having done that, they stated at different periods that many aspects of the short-term measure proposed by my right hon. Friend the First Secretary were incapable of solving the problem. Nevertheless, because it was good political material, they attempted to push the Government along the road of introducing legislation. We had all our discussions in public, and they knew full well that there was a distinct possibility of a rupture in this movement of ours.
    I am happy to say that, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling), I have met many employers and discussed the situation with them. Only two weeks before the Government announced that they had reached agreement with the T.U.C., a number of employers told me that the proposed legislation of the Prime Minister and the Government was, to say the least, a nonsense.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham spoke about the article by Professor Roberts, of the London School of Economics. I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to a book published by Professor Turner, of Cambridge University. It is clear from the book that, of all the countries enumerated, we are third on the list of those with the best records in terms of unofficial stoppages. We are inclined to lose sight of that when the Opposition are so intent in getting after us and attempt to make political capital out of strike statistics.
    Mr. R. Carr: The hon. Gentleman cannot say that it is the Opposition who are doing that. The Donovan Report analyses the strike position and makes it clear. It is not really an Opposition line.
    Mr. Hamilton: That is true but, at the same time, the Donovan Report came out against penal sanctions, against any conciliation pause period and against the balloting of members.
    I would agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the Donovan Report is one of the finest reports yet produced.

    727
    From it has emerged the C.I.R. Many unions and employers are strengthening their procedural agreements as a result of it. Where there are bad procedural agreements, obviously the industries concerned are heading for trouble. One which comes readily to mind is the York memorandum, which is undergoing a long overdue, drastic overhaul. Failing that overhaul, there will never be peace in the engineering industry.
    Under the memorandum, it is possible to arrange within seven days what is known as a local conference. At present, such a local conference cannot be convened at any shorter notice than three or four weeks, simply because employers do not have the trained personnel to deal with a given situation. The position arises frequently that men who have negotiated are then prepared to go to the next stage of the procedure. Suddenly, they discover that the next stage is held up for a period of three or four weeks. In such a situation, some improvement must be made, and this is where the C.I.R. can play a very important part.
    I am surprised at the Opposition's Motion. If the Press is fair in reporting this debate, particularly if it reports in full the speech of the Prime Minister, people who are fair minded will quickly come to the conclusion that the Opposition have not made any progress at all since we came into office in 1964. It will also prove that they are not fit to govern, far less to tell the T.U.C. how to run its affairs.
    7.29 p.m.
    Dr. M. P. Winstanley: The hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) has made an interesting speech and given effective expression to one of the many schools of thought on this subject, if the word "thought" can be applied to all the different schools in the House.
    The hon. Member will forgive me if I do not follow him in detail, since there are so many different policies to comment upon. There is the policy of the Conservative Party which has been advanced in a clear, cogent, temperate and civilised speech by the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr). There is then what I call the "unpolicy" of the Government, who are in a transitional
    728
    stage, having shed some of their clothes, but not having quite got used to the new ones.
    Beyond that there is the more orthodox Labour Party point of view expressed by the hon. Member for Bothwell. There are other more extreme points of view, one of which we heard from the hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby). There is then our point of view, and there may be others.
    We must try to reconcile these opinions and decide how to express our view on the issue as a whole. This is a situation which can cause a minority party certain difficulties. We make no complaint. Sometimes there are advantages in being a member of a minority party, but also there are difficulties—for example, when one has to choose between two courses of action whereas one would perhaps prefer a third or even a fourth choice.
    My right hon. and hon. Friends and I have a choice virtually between two Motions. There is not a third Lobby into which we can go. We cannot say that we do not agree with either and we cannot say that we agree with both or that we reject both and want some other course. We must take the one or the other. We are not offered an easy choice.
    First, the Prime Minister's Amendment. It amounts almost, as I say, to an "unpolicy". It asks us to applaud something which is wholly negative. It endorses the Prime Minister's announcement on industrial relations on 19th June, 1969. That announcement, in effect, was a decision not to do something which we never thought that they should do in the first place.
    The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) shakes his head. Does he say that that was not the announcement and that the Government did intend to continue with the abandoned clauses?
    After much thought and many consultations the Government decided to abandon the penal clauses in the Industrial Relations Bill. We are asked to endorse that decision. I think that they were right. I took the view, and so did my hon. Friends, that if the penal clauses had been adopted and any attempt had been made to enforce them, we would not have improved industrial relations,

    729
    but might have worsened them considerably and brought industry to a grinding halt.
    We even took the view that any vigorous attempt to enforce the penal clauses might have precipitated us into a degree of social and industrial unrest which this country has not seen for many years. So we applaud the abandonment of those two proposals which we regarded as unhelpful.
    But we want something constructive. The fact that the Prime Minister has decided not to do something does not mean that he is doing something positive and constructive in its place. Before we can say, "Jolly good, we support it", we want to know what we are supporting.
    We welcome the agreement made with the T.U.C. We do not deceive ourselves that this agreement will do more than it is possible for it to do. But we welcome the sign that the trade union movement is willing to take on this responsibility and to make this attempt. We applaud and support that, but we do not accept it in place of a Government policy. We do not accept that the abandonment of a policy is a policy in itself. We want to look, therefore, for something more positive before we can give support to it.
    The Conservative Opposition asks us to support a Motion of censure which talks about the need
    "to implement without delay during the present Session new legislative provisions for industrial relations."
    I do not quarrel with the Conservative Opposition on that. I think that we do need new legislative provisions. But the new legislative provisions which I and my hon. Friends would like to see are very different from what the Conservatives would like to see. Therefore, we are in a dilemma, because it is difficult for us to support them on that Motion—[Interruption.]
    I see that hon. Members opposite realise that in the end we shall arrive at the logical conclusion that we cannot support either, nor can we vote against them—[Interruption.] Therefore, on this occasion, in as positive a way as we can, we shall abstain. Having decided to abstain, I hope that the House will accept that on this occasion—
    Mr. Edward Milne: The hon. Gentleman is obviously in a dilemma.
    730
    Could he not consult his absent colleagues, who might be able to help if they were here?
    Dr. Winstanley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which I am sure was intended to be helpful. I assure him that I have consulted my colleagues. Our consultations are not always conducted in the blaze of limelight in which the consultations that he and his hon. Friends had with their Front Bench took place not long ago.
    We cannot support either of the propositions, nor are we wholly against them, for the reasons which I have made clear. Therefore, we must do something rather different. We must explain what we would do instead, and, since we cannot give formal recognition to it in the Lobby, we will abstain and hope that our action will be understood.
    Earlier, the Prime Minister referred to the television discussion in which I took part with the right hon. Member for Mitcham and the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity. He quoted my remark at the end of an exchange,
    "Well, there we are, you see."
    Indeed, there we are. But he did not relate my remark to what it applied to, namely, an observation I had made earlier in which I said that this was not a three-party discussion. All the parties were not represented. The Conservative Party was represented, the Liberal Party was represented, the Government were represented, but the Labour Party, in a sense, was not. I realise that the Government were in a transitional stage, having just made a change to which they had not become used. But there was a point of view which was not effectively represented at that time.
    As it has become fashionable to quote from the transcribed recording of that programme, I should like to quote something else. Following on remarks which I made about the dropping of the penal clauses—and I welcome that—the right hon. Lady said:
    "But, of course, sanctions are only a minor part of the whole job of improving our industrial relations."
    I agree with that.
    "They were a minor part in the Government's White Paper. They were a minor part in its legislation."

    731
    I cannot say that this was an accurate representation of what I understood had been going on during previous weeks. The arguments earlier suggested that these penal clauses were a major part. I accept that they are a minor part now, because they have been dropped. But, had they been introduced and a vigorous attempt made to apply them, they would not have been a minor part they would have been a crucial part, and the argument now is about what kind of steps can we take instead.
    Coming back to the observations that the Prime Minister made with regard to this television discussion, reference was made to the Question put to the Prime Minister by the Leader of the Opposition. That question, again repeated by the Prime Minister, was
    "What will now happen if unofficial strikers refuse to accept the advice of their trade union leaders and remain on strike?"
    When this question was put to the Prime Minister by the Leader of the Opposition, he could not answer it. The right hon. Gentleman took a long time saying what might happen and this, that and the other. He evaded the question, he could not answer it, and the Leader of the Opposition put it again and again.
    In due course, I put the same quesiton to the right hon. Member for Mitcham. He, again, could not answer it. The right hon. Lady entered the discussion and accused the right hon. Gentleman of dodging the question. Then, in the end, we had the exchange quoted by the Prime Minister where the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "In the last resort, in the very last resort, the same as you would have done in your proposals."
    CASTLE: Oh, you would.
    WINSTANLEY: Well, there we arc, you see."
    But I know the answer to the question: what will happen if unofficial strikers refuse to accept the advice of their trade union leaders and remain on strike? There will be a strike. The sooner we recognise this and stop trying to delude people into thinking we have a policy which will stop unofficial strikes, the better.
    I think that the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that. He said quite clearly that it was not possible to prevent strikes in those circumstances. Indeed, he im-
    732
    plied that it was not always desirable to prevent strikes in a highly rigid way, and I am sure that he is right about that. But at least he acknowledges now that we have to accept that we cannot devise legislation which of itself can stop strikes, and the sooner we stop discussing the matter on this basis the better. This is what we have been doing for weeks. We have been arguing about who has the answer when no one has the answer.
    Originally, we had from the Government a method for stopping strikes. They thought that by introducing penal clauses against the individual they would stop strikes. They thought that they would stop strikes by the accumulation of a civil debt which was to be recovered either by the attachment of wages, or by the normal process of recovering a civil debt. During the debate on the White Paper doubt was cast, quite rightly, on the possibility of the attachment of wages, and at the end of his speech the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) said that he took the view that both sides would have to reconsider the advisability of the attachment of wages. I think that they have reconsidered it, and that both sides now realise that it is not feasible. But for a time the Government went on with their idea of recovery by the process of the accumulation of a civil debt.
    The Conservative Party's idea is rather different. It is not recovery by any kind of penal action against the individual striker, but recovery by action against the trade union. But this, too, cannot work. The one result of making a collective agreement with a trade union legally enforcible in that kind of way is that the trade union does not enter into the agreement, for the simple reason that it does not have that kind of authority over its members. It does not particularly want to have that kind of authority, and indeed it would be undesirable for it to have it.
    If, in the fullness of time, a union can acquire that kind of authority in the ordinary democratic way, that will be a good thing. I should like to see a situation in which union members respond to the advice of their union leaders. I should like to see a situation in which union leaders really represent the views of their trade unions in every way, but to suggest that a trade union itself can

    733
    have powers of that kind over individual members is really to belie the realities of the situation.
    Mr. David Mitchell: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a marked difference between the situation he is envisaging, and the situation in which a union undertakes to use its best endeavours to secure compliance with an agreement which has been entered into?
    Dr. Winstanley: It is not totally different, but I accept the hon. Gentleman's point. If, however, a union uses its best endeavours, and does not succeed, what do we do then? I shall come to that in a moment. Let us stick to the question whether a union can be made to deliver the goods.
    If we had in this country the situation which exists in the United States, where money is deposited and the union responsible for the negotiation can be made to forfeit that money, there would be a tendency to avoid making a formal agreement which could be regarded as contractual, and to proceed with an ad hoc arrangement. An arrangement cannot be made legally enforceable, although an agreement can.
    One cannot automatically bring to bear in Britain the American system of industrial relations. This was one of the lessons learned close to my constituency by Roberts Arundel, who failed to realise that it was impossible to apply the American management system to British wage packets. It is different if one is dealing with American wage packets. It is not always possible to apply the system in one country to the situation in another. I welcome any prospect of making properly negotiated agreements enforceable, but one can make them enforceable only to the extent that they are enforceable. If a union cannot do it, it is no good saying that it must, because it cannot.
    Let us consider some of the damaging strikes which have occurred. Let us consider the Liverpool dock strike, not the present one, but the past one which was so damaging to the economy. This was, in a sense, a strike against the T.G.W.U. At least in part the feeling among the strikers was one of acute resentment against that union. I am not discussing whether they were right or wrong, but
    734
    there was a feeling that their point of view was not being expressed adequately, and that their action was the only way in which they could draw attention to their grievances.
    There are many strikes of this kind against unions, and the kind of arrangement envisaged by the right hon. Member for Mitcham cannot in any way provide for this. This is where there has been a division. There has been fierce prolonged argument between the Government who want penal sanctions against the individual workers, which could not possibly work, and the Conservative Opposition who want penal sanctions against the trade union, which also could not work.
    Let us now get down to the reality of the situation.
    Mr. R. Carr: The hon. Gentleman must not keep on saying that my party's policy is to apply penal sanctions to anybody. It is not. If everything is so impossible, why is it impossible only in Britain, when it is possible and it works elsewhere?
    Dr. Winstanley: The right hon. Gentleman knows that it does not work elsewhere. It is a delusion that industrial relations in this country are a veritable Jungle, whereas everything works smoothly elsewhere.
    We have the evidence of the book by Professor Turner, "Is Britain Really Strike-Prone?", which makes very good reading for us all. We also have the evidence of a very wise and interesting speech by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), who dealt with this matter in percentage terms, and said that the impact of strikes on our economy and production is quantitatively extremely small.
    The right hon. Gentleman is right about that, and he is equally right in drawing attention to the fact that other countries have not obliterated strikes by penal sanctions of one kind and another.
    Many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate. There are many things that I should like to say, but I hope that the House will accept that the Liberal Party has positive proposals to put forward. Others have positive proposals which they would like to put forward. Let us concentrate on things which can really work. We are faced

    735
    with another strike at the moment, the container dispute at Liverpool. This arises fundamentally from a sense of insecurity amongst the people there.
    This is what we have to attack, and this is where one finds the great divide on the whole question of industrial relations. There are those on this side of the House who believe that it is possible to make people do things they do not want to do, by threats, by sanctions, or by some kind of pressure. There are also those who believe that it is possible to make people do things by brandishing the big stick of insecurity. It is this fear of insecurity which at present bedevils industrial relations. It is this feeling of insecurity which has tended to make the trade union movement rather slow in moving forward.
    I do not side with those who think that if there is more insecurity, more unemployment, and more threats, we shall do away with strikes. I side with those—and I am conscious that they are on both sides of the House, and I believe that the right hon. Member for Mitcham shares my view—who want to take constructive steps to improve industrial relations and to get rid of the causes of industrial strife.
    7.50 p.m.
    Mr. Jack Ashley: After so many comments from both sides of the House on this subject I will have to cut my speech. Some of the questions raised in the debate will not be answered until we have the opportunity to implement the Government's proposals. It is unfortunate that there has been so much debate about what is obviously, on the part of the Opposition, a political gimmick. They are blandly ignoring the fact that significant changes have taken place since the Chancellor made his announcement.
    Both the Motion and the speeches from the Opposition today show their obsessive concern with trade unions and the law. Their propaganda has created the myth that trade unions are somehow in an extraordinarily strong position and above the law. This is quite untrue, because the common law ensures that trade unions are at a disadvantage, because collective action by individual workers in restraint of trade has always been illegal, and we needed the special pro-
    736
    visions of 1871 and 1906 to redress this gross imbalance.
    These provisions were attacked by anti-trade union people many years ago, as they are now being attacked by hon. Members opposite. The Opposition ought now to be looking more at the attitude of people in industry rather than trying to shackle the trade union movement. The proposal that collective bargaining agreements should be legally enforced simply cannot be taken seriously. The Opposition ought to ask themselves two questions, which are constantly put from this side of the House. The first is: if employers already have the powers to take legal action against trade union members and do not do so, why should further powers be necessary? The second question is: how is it possible to enforce legally any agreement? These questions are posed by Donovan and by hon. Members and they have not been answered.
    The Motion has a political rather than an industrial motive. Hon. Members opposite say that the agreements shall be binding by law unless the parties decide otherwise. We all know that according to the record the parties will decide otherwise. Their case for legal enforcement is as watertight as a colander. As a form of corporal punishment on the trade unions it may commend itself, as it has an emotional appeal to the Conservative Party, but as a curative measure it simply creates suspicion among the trade unions, which is damaging the voluntary character of our collective bargaining machinery. This Motion, and this idea of legal sanctions on collective agreements, is a prescription for widespread industrial conflict.
    I suggest that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite should try to understand the attitudes of the trade unionists instead of trying to impose the law upon them. If they did so they would find that strikes are not simply the result of the actions of a selfish and tiny majority. There is such a tiny minority in both sections of industry, but strikes are usually caused by the action or inaction of management. The myth created that wildcat strikes are the result of this irresponsibility is wide of the mark.
    Many years ago, when I was 22 years old, I was a shop steward convenor and

    737
    participated in wildcat strikes. I was the chairman of strike committees in two industrial disputes. It was interesting to compare the way in which I and my trade union colleagues saw the disputes with the way in which the public saw the disputes. It was very different. What the public saw were hundreds of men being thrown out of work and it was very indignant. What we saw was an arrogant management which refused to recognise our union and negotiate with us. They imposed changes on our wages structure which we greatly resented.
    They refused to listen to the reasonable and rational representations of our full-time trade union officials. So we went on unconstitutional strike. We worked in the non-ferrous metal industry, in a smelting factory, and the result was that the molten metal in the furnaces was allowed to run on the floor, and solidify in some of the furnaces. We then found that the employer became amenable. Those two strikes taught me my first major lesson in industrial relations which was that if there are rough tough bosses then inevitably there are rough tough trade unionists. It is an inevitable concomitant.
    There is no point in the Opposition saying that the way to deal with the problem is legally to shackle the trade unions. I do not believe it. We have to change our attitude to shop stewards, because it is they who have a vital rôle to play in industry. It has always been a vital rôle, becoming even more important now, with the development of new techniques and with the growth of productivity bargaining. There is no point in national trade union officials in London or York solemnly discussing a productivity agreement because they really do not understand what goes on on the shop floor, and they cannot. It is the shop stewards who need the understanding and it is upon them that the Opposition should be focussing a degree of understanding which they have so far failed to show.
    That is why I believe that the panaceas produced by the Opposition are quite unworkable. Individual trade unionists, in addition to shop stewards, have a responsibility now that the T.U.C. has made its move to surrendering some of their autonomy, so that the T.U.C. can become a really effective executive instrument, which it is not at present. In that way there is an opportunity for these
    738
    measures undertaken by the T.U.C. to work.
    The danger of this debate is that we are tending to concentrate too much on the unions. The employers have a responsibility and it is regrettable that it is neglected. A recent survey carried out by my union, the General and Municipal Workers', disclosed these staggering figures. Less than 40 per cent. of employers were prepared to co-operate with the unions, 20 per cent. were indifferent and nearly 40 per cent. were actually hostile.
    This is a sad comment upon the employers. I know that some firms have splendid relations, but unfortunately this attitude of hostility and indifference is far too prevalent, and the recent statements of the C.B.I. are encouraging rather than discouraging this attitude.
    The statements made by Mr. Davies on behalf of the C.B.I. may win applause in a few board rooms, may win some congratulatory notes from those who will "stand for no nonsense from these agitators" and may win the accolade of a few letters in The Times, but I wonder how responsible management has reacted to his pugnacious remarks? I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will not follow the irresponsible example which has been set by the leader of the C.B.I.
    The Opposition have caricatured the T.U.C.'s promise of change as a surrender by the Government. However, there is a real danger that in the debate that will occur in the coming 12 months some of our industrial relations could be damaged by the Opposition in the same way that racial relations have been damaged by one of our number in this House. Parliament has a responsibility to the trade unions and employers to offer a constructive contribution rather than simply demand legal sanctions.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) for being brief. I know that he had prepared a longer speech. I hope that other hon. Members will be equally helpful. Mr. Mitchell.
    8.1 p.m.
    Mr. David Mitchell: This has been an informed and constructive debate, apart from the contribution

    739
    of the Prime Minister who, for sheer gall, takes the biscuit. He reminded me of the barrister who was handed a brief which merely said, "No case; abuse opponent." For the greater part of his speech, that is what the right hon. Gentleman did.
    The Prime Minister made two interesting points, however, which need considering. The first was when he said that the Government wanted the unions to use their rule books to discipline their members, that the Conservatives also wanted the unions to secure the adherence to agreements and that, therefore, the Government should not be criticised for arriving at a position in which the unions will be exercising pressure on their members.
    There is a straight answer to that statement. It is that the Conservative proposals envisage a complete package. Part of it is the registration of the rules of individual trade unions, with a right of appeal for members who are brought before disciplinary committees.
    The second interesting point which the right hon. Gentleman made occurred when he drew attention to the fact that in the United States strikes are ended with, as he put it, an agreement not to sue. The right hon. Gentleman must be misinformed, for that was an extraordinary statement for him to make. He appears ignorant of the fact that 88 per cent. of the time lost through strikes in the U.S. occurs at the end of the contract, so that there cannot be any breach of contract or anything on which to sue. The remaining 12 per cent. of time lost occurs during the term of contract, though often it is not in breach of any contract, which again means that there are no grounds on which to sue. The result is that in the U.S. a minute number of strikes occur in breach of contract, largely because of the liability for an action for damages. This is precisely what my hon. Friends are recommending for this country.
    Because little time remains for the debate, I will be brief. There are constitutional implications which this House should not overlook in that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in his Budget statement legislation on this issue. The Prime Minister pointed out how essential it was for there to be legislation in this
    740
    sphere during this Session of Parliament. The Government then publicly and humiliatingly had to withdraw from that position.
    The implication is that the Government have given way to pressure from the T.U.C., a body formed of honourable men, but men who are not answerable to either the electorate generally or to this House. Perhaps next year, when making up his Budget, the Chancellor will feel it more circumspect to accept the advice of the T.U.C. rather than make a statement in his Budget and then, humiliatingly, have to climb down a couple of months later.
    There are two points I wish to consider. The first is the agreement made with the T.U.C., and the second concerns future legislation. On the first—the T.U.C.'s binding agreement with the Government—one wonders why, if the T.U.C. will be able to deliver the goods in this way, as we hope it will, it has not done so before. In the first five months of 1967, 870,000 working days were lost through strikes and in the first five months of 1969, over 2 million days were lost.
    If the T.U.C.—a patriotic institution; that is my view of it—has had these powers all along, why has it not used them? What about the ban on the container terminal at Tilbury, where £3½ million worth of assets have been lying idle for 18 months, as a result of which valuable shipments have been using Holland instead of our ports? Throughout this time, it appears, the T.U.C. has had the ability to do something effective, but has not done so.
    The second point concerns the talk about sanctions. As an ex-trade unionist, I have understood the feeling that has existed among the unions about penal sanctions—a phrase that has grown up—and the suggestion is abroad that no sanctions now exist. The Prime Minister has made it clear, however, that there will be fines, expulsions and even dismissals. This, in respect of a closed shop dismissal, means a man losing his right to exercise his skill and craft; in other words, his ability to earn a living. This is, therefore, a capital offence, as it were, involving the employment of workers.
    These powerful disciplines of fines, expulsions and dismissals are to be exercised in private and not in the public courts where justice can be seen to be

    741
    done. I urge the T.U.C. to consider carefully the crying need that exists for an appeals procedure which is seen by all to be fair.
    There are more than 50 trade unions in this country whose rule books provide appeal against suspension or expulsion to the same body that imposed the penalty. Not many hon. Members would support that position. Many trade unions have more enlightened rules in this respect, but there are fears that the present set-up will lead to private disciplinary courts and even kangaroo courts.
    The second matter with which I wish to deal is the possibility of legislation being introduced in the coming years, whichever party is in power. I wish to approach the subject in a constructive way, because it is in the national interest to do so and because there should be co-operation between both sides of industry, whatever Government introduce that legislation.
    We must raise the standard of employer and trade union activities to the level of the best today. That is not to seek change for change's sake but to bring in the also-rans and raise their standards. The best employers already have speedy grievance procedures. For the best trade unions their word is their bond. Ernie Bevin was general secretary of the trade union of which I was a member for six years. He was the toughest negotiator in the country, but once he had made an agreement he stuck to it and his union stuck to it. He was immensely respected for that reason and he was able to get much higher awards for the members of his union because the employers knew that once he had made a deal it would be stuck to. Good employers today recognise unions. The best trade unions try to stop unconstitutional strikes. On these things we should try to get the also-rans to do likewise.
    It is important that we should provide a civilised alternative to strikes as a means of settling disputes. So many times the only way in which men on the shop floor feel that they can get their grievances settled is by having a strike. On the question of unfair dismissal, why should we not, like most countries, have an appeal to an industrial court where the question can be settled? Why should
    742
    we not have cases of dispute over union recognition referred to the ballot? Why should we not go further than the Government have suggested and have cases of dispute between two unions as to which should be recognised solved by the ballot?
    Why not go even further to say that when there are demarcation disputes there shall be a ballot taken of the men of the factory floor? They should say which union they want to represent them. Why should an employer decide which union should represent his men? Why should a Minister do that? The basis of industrial democracy is the ballot box and people on the factory floor. In one country where this is done 89 per cent. of those entitled to use their votes do so in taking a decision. That is a degree of participation which we do not often find in this country.
    On the question of grievances I take a dim view of the present engineering employers' procedure. It is too slow and rather slanted. I am glad that in 1967 proposals for a revision were submitted and others were again submitted in April this year. I hope that the trade union will pick up those proposals and bring forward more speedy procedures than there are at present.
    I am certain that if we have binding agreements we shall have a catalyst to bring about the changes we want, because then we shall have a situation in which both sides, before they put their signatures to an agreement, will know that the procedures are swift and agreeable to them. We shall have communications on both sides of industry speeded up and improved enormously. In every other major industrial country they have binding agreements and they do not have massive numbers of unconstitutional strikes. It is the trade unions in those countries that insist that an agreement shall be binding so that they shall have the right to go to the court and secure justice on behalf of their members.
    The White Paper indicated the Government's attitude and their thinking. I hope that there will be a change in that attitude and that thinking before next year. If we have a situation in which a Minister has arbitrary power without going to a court to decide which strike shall be subject to a conciliation pause and which

    743
    shall not be so subject, then all the backstairs pressures exerted in prices and incomes policy will be repeated; if the Minister is to decide which union should represent men on a workshop floor, we shall be denying the essentials of industrial democracy.
    Worst of all, we shall have a situation in which the Minister can say to a union, "You shall withdraw your demand for negotiating rights." Never in the history of this country has any Minister sought to arrogate to himself or herself the power to say that. I hope that there will be a total change in the Government's attitude towards Ministerial Dower. This was summed up better than I could do it by Hugh Scanlon, who said:
    "We are faced with the prospect of further legislation which has as its object the subservience of the trade unions to the dictates of Government authority".
    This is not only unacceptable to Mr. Scanlon's union, but to the majority of the people in the country.
    8.17 p.m.
    Mr. John Mendelson: The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) closed on a very strong note of criticism of the First Secretary, but he spent little time criticising the proposals which his right hon. Friend put forward this afternoon, which are designed to create a legal framework and a straitjacket around the British trade union movement.
    For a considerable time the Opposition have urged the Government to introduce penal legislation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There is no question about that. But this is not the time, at this late hour, to quibble about words. Legal enforcement has no meaning unless it includes penal sanctions. Hon. Members opposite cannot ride off this, for it is clearly on record. No hon. Member opposite is in any position whatever to offer any criticism of the kind of provisions the First Secretary thought of including in the proposed interim industrial relations Bill. Those who can criticise those proposals sit on this side of the House, and they have a right to criticise them.
    For some time the Opposition has harassed the Government with these demands. Hon. Members opposite have argued that the prices and incomes legislation is not doing the job, but what
    744
    job did they have in mind? The purpose of the Opposition is to emasculate the trade union movement so that on the shop floor and in national bargaining the working people should be weakened so that wage levels can be kept down. That is the meaning of the link which the Opposition has sought to establish between prices and incomes legislation and legislation which they now demand. The link is quite clear. If they cannot effectively keep down wage levels by prices and incomes legislation they wish to attempt another method, a legal straitjacket around the trade union movement. All the fine words about establishing fair justice, the law and the rest will not do away with that strategic aim of the Conservative Party.
    Mr. R. Carr: If our proposals are, as the hon. Member says, principally designed to hold down wages, can he explain why unions in other countries under these sort of systems of law are winning bigger increases in wages for their members than the British trade unions win for theirs?
    Mr. Mendelson: For the moment I am describing a strategic aim of the Opposition and I will not be interrupted in doing so because I have another point to make now; but later I will return to the right hon. Gentleman's intervention.
    The second purpose of the Opposition's policy is a major transfer of the burden of direct taxation to indirect taxation. This is a second way by which the Opposition wish to see that the standard of life of the working people is not allowed to rise as it otherwise would. This was summed up by David Watt in the Financial Times at the height of the controversy over the interim Industrial Relations Bill in a classic phrase which I hope my hon. Friends and I will be repeating from now on, right up to the General Election to drive the message home. Mr. David Watt argued that when you examine the taxation proposals of the Conservative Party and their industrial relations proposals you will find that these are the proposals of a class party. That is exactly what they are.
    I turn from there to the recent controversy because there an interesting change has occurred as far as the Opposition is concerned. The Opposition are now split on their original urging of the

    745
    Government to go ahead with the interim Industrial Relations Bill. Many intelligent Tories in the country, for example, the editor-in-chief of the Sunday Telegraph and its deputy editor, Mr. Peregrine Worsthorne, who, along with the rest of Conservative journalists, had started off, some time ago, urging the Government to go straight ahead regardless, changed their tune five weeks ago.
    I want to quote to the House what they said. Suddenly one morning, at the height of the debate, with the argument going on in the trade union movement and in the Labour movement in the country, some readers were startled by a headline over the signature of Mr. Worsthorne: "Both hands to grasp this nettle." He demanded a national Government, a coalition. He said that a coalition should be formed there and then, containing my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and, if possible, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party; but certainly the two leaders of the main parties because, he argued, the penal sanctions in the interim Industrial Relations Bill had met with so much opposition from the trade union movement in the country and in Parliament that they could not possibly be carried through successfully by a Government formed by one party and that, therefore, we needed a national Government.
    Side by side with that article was a leading article, written by the editor-in-chief of the Sunday Telegraph, making the same demand. One of the most interesting points which Mr. Worsthorne put to drive home the message as to why we needed a national Government was that in spite of the fact that he did not think that either my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition were inclined to accept such a proposal, nevertheless, it was important to have a national Government for this job because if there were to be a change of Government at the next election, and the Conservative Party were to be in office, it could not possibly carry any really harsh, or, as he put it, strong trade union legislation. I believe that he as absolutely right. Mr. Worsthorne added that a Conservative Government could not carry it because they would be faced with the united opposition of a united Labour movement
    746
    in the country and in Parliament; and so they would.
    There is, therefore, now an interesting split in the view of the Opposition on this subject and it is at this point that I wish to examine the proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend, the First Secretary, some time ago. The greatest difficulty in all the negotiations that have taken place was the difficulty trade union leaders faced when they looked at the penal sanctions in the Bill proposed by my right hon. Friend, because they knew that those proposals would be wholly ineffective. In fact, there has not been a single industrial dispute in the country recently, including current difficult ones, that would have been in the least affected by the proposals in the Industrial Relations Bill which has now been abandoned. The difficulty from the point of view of the trade union leaders was that they knew they were negotiating against something which would not be in any way effective.
    The real conclusion and lesson to be drawn from this important national debate, in the country and in Parliament, is that the only way in which we can have improved industrial relations is by creating a climate of opinion in which the trade unions can reform themselves and can do the job. That is the decisive lesson which was driven home neither by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister nor by the Leader of the Opposition. That must be put on record; otherwise, the debate would be very incomplete and misleading. This is the final lesson to be drawn from these weeks of debate.
    The Leader of the Opposition in the country, and many hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side, have repeated that the Government have surrendered to an outside body. They have said that again and again. People as intelligent as the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) know full well that this is a load of nonsense. They are putting it up as a political charade.
    What has happened over the many months of debate is that proposals were put forward by members of the Government and then the great debate started. In a democracy that is right and proper. The Government can tell the trade union movement, "We as a Government are going to have a certain point of view on foreign policy. You, as

    747
    the T.U.C., can pass resolutions expressing a different view, but we are going to say that we are at least as good judges as you are of what Britain's foreign policy ought to be and we will carry on with our policy.
    But where the day-to-day relations between workpeople and employers are concerned, the Government cannot say that and succeed. There can only be a successful policy of industrial relations which is implemented day by day by members of trade unions themselves; and clearly, when trade unions started saying these penal clauses were unacceptable they were doomed to failure. At the same time, it is equally important to put on record a clear refutation of the charge made by the Leader of the Opposition and others in this House and outside.
    Of course, debate was also going on in Parliament and, of course, there were cross-currents of opinion between people, between hon. Members in Parliament and workpeople whom they represent in their constituencies. This is a natural process of democracy. Gradually, there was building up a majority opinion among hon. Members on this side against the penal proposals contained in the original draft of the Industrial Relations Bill. Therefore, it is quite untrue to say that there has been anything like a surrender to an outside body. That is a load of nonsense.
    There are many hon. Members who keep deploring the fact that Members of Parliament have no independence, that they have become ciphers and that the House of Commons is meaningless; that all that happens is that somebody suddenly cracks a whip and every M.P. jumps. Some people have been saying that hon. Members are too concerned with their own seats. The unworthy charge has been made that they will not make up their own mind if that might involve political risks. Recent weeks have given the lie to those accusations. M.P.s have stood up for their own opinions and have told the Government what their opinion is. They made it clear that they were not prepared to accept the penal clauses in the proposed legislation.
    In the normal constitutional process—and this, again, is something which has
    748
    not been put on record in this debate and must be—because the Cabinet and Government have antennae which make them very sensitive to what goes on in the minds of those on the back benches, that opinion has trickled into the heads of the Government and the Cabinet. These matters were seriously discussed and they must be in a constitutional Parliamentary democracy. The Opposition make a great mistake if they think that they will get away with this false and shoddy accusation. They will be given the lie direct.
    What has happened during the past five months has been a profound process of debate which has been a good example of democracy at work. When the people in Czechoslovakia last year made their reform proposals which ended tragically for the time being, among their three principal demands were a free independent trade union movement, not controlled by the Government, and a real Parliament instead of the sham National Assembly which they are forced by the Russian occupation army to continue today.
    In the debate over the past five months both those purposes have been demonstrated and both institutions have been shown in action—a free trade union movement has expressed its own views and has not been an appendix of the Government, and here in the House the democratic process was at work, and we have been and are a real Parliament.
    Mr, Michael McGuire: Surely my hon. Friend is not trying to make out that if the Government's proposals in the White Paper had been carried out we would have changed from having a free trade union movement to a controlled trade union movement?
    Mr. Mendelson: I would make no such charge. I was only speaking in shorthand, because I want to sit down in two minutes.
    The attitude of a free trade union movement expresses itself in being able to make up its own mind as to what should happen in industrial relations and effectively to present its point of view to the Government, instead of receiving opinions from the Government and saying "Yes", to them. That has nothing to do with any wild accusations that people might make that the right to strike was in danger, or any such thing.

    749
    I have argued from the beginning that there were good things in the White Paper, and I hope that they will be implemented in legislation in the coming Session. The freedom of trade unions can be demonstrated by their not only receiving opinions from the Government but offering their own opinions and suggestions and fighting for them.
    The Opposition are kidding themselves if they think that they will sail to victory on a programme of putting a legal straitjacket on the trade union movement. They are kidding themselves if they believe that by putting up the right hon. Member for Mitcham to make a particularly careful speech they will camouflage their real intentions. Every time one scratches a Tory who wants to see my right hon. Friend's original proposals implemented, and discusses the matter with him, he turns out not to be just against unofficial strikes but to be an enemy of the trade union movement. We had a good example in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby), who does not very often grace our proceedings. I am grateful that he came out of retirement and spoke this afternoon, because he gave the game away.
    It is because their real hostility is against trade unionists and trade unions, in spite of all the camouflage, that we as a united movement—the trade union movement and the Labour Party in Parliament and the country—will be able to expose the Opposition's real policies and show them up to the inspection of the working people, to reject them and defeat them at the next General Election, as they have been defeated many times before.
    8.34 p.m.
    Sir Edward Brown: If I do not follow the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) down the left lane, it is because I shall be travelling in the opposite direction, down the right one. I cannot conceive that any hon. Member on this side of the House, or any among the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends, could ever be kidded by such a speech as his, in which he said that the party opposite is responsible and united, that there was no division, and that we had seen Parliamentary democracy at work.
    750
    Those of us who have had a lifelong experience of industrial relations, as have hon. Gentlemen opposite, know full well that the law relating to the trade unions is out-moded and out-dated, and full of Victorian cobwebs. That is why we said that we would not oppose the Government when they said that they would do a little dusting where we would have done some spring cleaning.
    "In Place of Strife" has now been shelved by the Prime Minister and his friends in exchange for a scrap of paper described as "a solemn and binding undertaking". Today's news shows how solemn and how binding it was. The workers on the tubes, the dockers and others now involved in unofficial action prove beyond shadow of doubt that the Government's White Paper, albeit weak, was vitally necessary.
    The operational words of the solemn and binding undertaking were:
    "…to do all in our power …."
    and power is something which the T.U.C. does not at present possess. Since its inception in 1867 it has been only advisory in function, and, therefore, its signatures on that "solemn and binding undertaking" still need the ratification of Congress, which does not meet until September. Even if it receives ratification and is empowered to act, what will happen to a union that is disaffiliated for an offence? It will still be a union; it will still operate, despite the T.U.C.
    Every hon. Member knows that industrial relations is a complex matter, dealing with the hopes and aspirations of millions of people, with the relationships not only of employer to employee but of employee with employee, the employee and his union, union with union, union with Government, union with employer, and employer with the Government. It is also here that ordinary men and women seek to obtain a fair reward for their services, and they are concerned to use that reward in the greatest of pursuits—happiness. That is what industrial relations is all about. They do not want to be puppets in the political arena. However much hon. Members opposite may protest, they are not all blindly Socialist either.
    We on this side of the House have been accused of being the enemies of the workers, yet it is the legislation put on

    751
    the Statute Book by Tories and Liberals that the party opposite is still trying desperately to cling on to, and do not want to see reformed. All that we have been trying to say to them for many weeks is that what was good for grandfather needs modernising for his grandson. "In Place of Strife", though a dreadfully weak document, at least gave us the impression that the party opposite had at long last recognised the need for reform.
    We could be forgiven if we thought that our own document, "Fair Deal at Work" had perhaps sired some of the ideas in the White Paper. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has spoken both in the House and the country about the urgent need for reform of the unions, and he is not unmindful that the task that will face us has been too difficult for the party opposite. "Fair Deal at Work" will be at the forefront of the Tory manifesto at the coming General Election Given the mandate by the nation, we shall not shirk our duty to enact it.
    The Prime Minister gave a dreadful exhibition today about the years of Tory Government. I am not ashamed of those 13 years—not one scrap. I am proud that, taking over from a bankrupt Socialist Government in 1951, we built the affluent society, that we relieved people of taxation, that we brought motor cars and good schools and good hospitals to the country. We were so busy doing that that industrial relations were growing better.
    The Motion condemns the Government for abject surrender to pressures not only from the T.U.C. and affiliated unions but from the Left-wing in this House, and to that condemnation I add my own. My charge against the Government is that in nearly five years of rule, they have reduced industrial relations to a very low ebb, with resultant effects upon the economy. The allies of the unions who sit smugly on the benches opposite have inflicted more punishment on the workers than was ever complained of by the Tolpuddle Martyrs. I will read the indictment.
    There was the Prices and Incomes Act, with its actions against workers in industrial relations; there is selective employment tax, throwing thousands of men out of work; there was devaluation, which cut the wages in the workers' poc-
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    kets, despite the Prime Minister's claim that "the £ in your pocket is still worth a £"; income tax is up; unemployment is up; postal charges are up; house prices and the cost of mortgages are up—despite the 3 per cent. mortgages of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown); purchase tax is up; bus and rail fares are up; local rates are up; petrol tax is up; laundry and hairdressing charges are up; the insurance stamp costs more; the brain drain is up; our overseas debts are up by £3,000 million.
    That is the charge against the Government. Those are the crimes they have committed against the working masses. The Government have much to answer for. They have surrendered to the T.U.C. their responsibilities in industrial relations, and they will not be forgiven by the nation. The words of the 1966 Labour manifesto have come home to roost. The victory was a real one but so was the price that the nation paid.
    8.44 p.m.
    Mr. Eric S. Heffer:
    The speech of the hon. Member for Bath (Sir E. Brown) typified what I feared might happen in the debate—that we should get some speeches purely of a propaganda nature which would not deal with the issue of industrial relations at all. He suggested that, under the Government, the number of strikes has risen to a higher level than ever before. He said that this was the fault of the trade union movement. I want to give the House some very important figures about industrial disputes because we have argued ourselves into a situation in which we are giving the impression abroad that Britain is involved in industrial anarchy. I believe that this has had a bad effect on our exports and on our industrial relations and—worst crime of all—that it is a slur on the British working man, who is as hard-working and as industrious and has as good a record of fine work as any other working man throughout the world.
    The number of strikes in 1968 was 2,350, an average of nine every working day. There are approximately 213,000 work places under the Factories Acts. There are 376 coal mines, 3,725 railway stations and railway yards, and 100,000 farms employing labour. That makes a total of 317,000 establishments employing labour. So, on the basis of nine strikes per working day, looking at the

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    figures the other way round, it means that there were 316,991 establishments where they do not take place. That fact should be borne in mind when we talk about strikes.
    There are 500,000 lost-time accidents in a year. These are individual accidents, and imagine how that piles up the amount of lost time in industry.
    Have strikes increased over the years? The answer is clearly, "No". On television, the Leader of the Opposition, in a speech which was a typical example of half-fact and untruth, gave the impression that the strike situation had grown far worse under the Labour Government than under the Conservative Government. He said that in the last 10 years the position had been terrible, but under the Conservatives, well, it was not so bad. The right hon. Member did not give the facts on television, he just made a statement and left it at that, for the whole world to hear. The facts are these. The average number of days lost in the last five years were lower than the average number during the previous five years.
    From 1959 to 1963 the average was 2,426 strikes with 3,779,000 days lost. From 1964 to 1968, under the Labour Government, there were 2,256 strikes with 3,016,000 days lost. This shows that there has been a lower level—not very much—than under the Conservatives. A very important point is that in 1944, when the war was on and strikes were illegal, the number of days lost was 3,710,000—higher than the average during the last 10 years. This was when strikes were illegal. If that is not a lesson for this House, I do not know what is.
    We have all been through a traumatic experience in the last few months. I feel as if I have been through the wringer about 10 times. I am now very pleased that sanity has descended upon us and we now have the T.U.C. document, which is a first-class one, which I am sure the T.U.C. will do its best to operate in the most sensible way. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to be affected with an even greater madness than one or two of my hon. Friends, because they want to pursue this matter all over again, on an even greater scale.
    I want to warn them right now that, if they believe that the trade union movement will stand by and allow legislation
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    of the type they have in mind to be brought in without a struggle, then they are living in an entirely different world from me. The opposition of the trade union movement to the penal clauses proposed by the Labour Government has been clearly demonstrated. They will be much harsher towards the proposals which hon. Gentlemen have placed before the House. I know that the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) clothed the proposals in a very mild speech. He played the whole thing down and tried to give the impression of sweet reasonableness, and personally he is sweetly reasonable.
    There are 10,000 workers on strike in Liverpool. The hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) put his finger on the trouble when he spoke of insecurity. We know that with docks modernisation and mechanisation there will be redudancy. The people who are now leaving will not be replaced. When a containerisation depot develops near to the docks the dock workers say that they want the work and they want the conditions of employment that go with the dock labour scheme. It is fear of redundancy and unemployment, and insecurity, that lead the dockers to take that line.
    The Transport and General Workers' Union honestly and openly signed an agreement through the commercial section for containerisation depots throughout the country, but two depots are close to the docks and the others are not; they are in Leeds and Birmingham, and in other parts of the country where there are no docks. If that agreement were legally binding no move in this situation could be made. The dockers, by taking the action which they have taken, would be going outside the procedure unconstitutionally and would be subject to action under the legally binding agreement which hon. Gentlemen wish to operate.
    After the first docker was fined, no docker in this country would go back to work until the matter was settled once and for all. It has happened before. Do not forget Defence Regulation 1305 and what happened to the miners at the Betteshanger pit; do not forget the history of the movement. The working-class people will not have it, and the Conservative Party had better understand that, as my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench understand it. We will not have it either now or in the future.

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    Mention has been made of the workers on the London tube trains. Hon. Members seem to rush into the House without knowing the full facts. On the very day that the Trades Union Congress met at Croydon, the workers in London had decided to begin weekly one-day strikes, and to have a 28-day cooling off period to get the matter settled. Unfortunately it was not settled in the way in which the workers wanted it settled.
    The trade union movement has its problems. We need to do more to democratise our organisation, but it cannot be done by legislation. It cannot be done from outside the movement; it can be done only from inside. I believe that before any agreement is signed it should be referred back to the membership for its views. We want more democracy, not less, in the trade union movement.
    The phrase "responsible trade unions" runs through the pamphlet issued by the party opposite. What they have in mind is a responsible trade unionist who is a tame kitten. Responsible trade unionism means that the workers must be involved in the decision-making of their organisation.
    I endorse the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) in a brilliant, first-class speech. It summed up the mood, the feelings and the desires of the Labour Party and the trade union movement.
    I see the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in his place, and I say to him that we will not have the proposals put forward by the other side.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Who is "we"?
    Mr. Heffer: "We" are the trade union movement and the British working class. The quicker that is understood the better and the sooner we shall arrive at real, genuine, industrial relations in this country. Let us keep out the law. Let us keep in conciliation. That is what we need, not legislation with penal clauses of the type suggested by the other side.
    8.57 p.m.
    Mr. David Crouch: I will leave it to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to follow some of the observations of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). All I want to do is to touch upon some
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    of the comments made by many hon. Members on this debate, all of which really come down to the same point. It relates to our responsibility for improving management and our attitude to the human factors in industry. Following the debates which have occurred in the country, as well as those which have taken place in this House, we must now develop in industry a new attitude.
    There is much to be done, much ground to be made up, and much to be achieved in the way of education and informed understanding and better interpretation of management. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) rightly touched upon this matter, and it was echoed by the hon. Member for Sheffield. Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn).
    If we are to avoid the problems which are taken so seriously by the trade union members in this House, a manager must be a real man. A real manager must be a man who is close to the people over whom he is boss. He must be on close terms, and I am not joking when I talk about his being on Christian name terms with his workers. They must have respect one for the other and have an identity of purpose.
    These are the issues which are at the bedrock in achieving a new society and a new rôle in that society. The be all and end all is not the legislation produced by one or other party. I believe that legislation when it comes will not be a straitjacket. That is the wrong word to use. It must be a scaffolding around which we can build the new society. There must be a new responsibility, with a new sense of pride in collective achievement, in keeping agreements and in making progress.
    I see this House as having a responsibility of leadership. Surely we in this Chamber cannot go on being mere observers of what is happening outside. We must be much more. We must again become leaders.
    I welcome the fact that the right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity took her place on the Government Front Bench on the second day of the Budget debate. I said that she would be entering difficult waters as she approached the task. Some of us see those waters as very rough. I do not see them as unnavigable.

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    I see this House demanding the right leadership. I see the country sensing the need again for a victory in peace, and seeking a new general to find that victory.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. Edward Heath: This debate on industrial relations, taken on an Opposition Supply day, has turned out very much to be a debate on Opposition policies on industrial relations, together with a searching examination by the Prime Minister of the Opposition's record. I must say that I find it rather complimentary that the Prime Minister and, no doubt, the right hon. Lady who is to follow me and their right hon. and hon. Friends, should spend a whole day discussing the policies which have been put forward by Her Majesty's Opposition. It is perhaps valuable as well, and not only a compliment. Never before has my all-too-short 10 months at the Ministry of Labour attracted quite so much attention as it has this afternoon. That, too, I find far from uncomplimentary.
    Our proposals, after all, are four years old, so the Prime Minister was certainly taking in most of the span of this Government, and it is now 10 years since I was at the Ministry of Labour. To listen to the Prime Minister today, one would have thought that history had stood still throughout the whole of those 10 years, let alone the four years. Indeed, one felt rather like tempting him by saying, "Why not go back to Mr. Attlee's Government and chastise them for apparently doing nothing about industrial relations during their period of office?".
    Some might have deduced that the Prime Minister had become rather obsessive about these matters, and that he was exchanging his recently obsession with the Press for one with Opposition policies. But we do not mind that—
    Mr. Albert Murray: He is lucky to find one.
    Mr. Heath: The Press might even be pleased.
    I know that the House will agree that, for years, we have not seen the Prime Minister enjoy himself as much as he did this afternoon, freed of all responsibility, having handed over the task of government to others outside this House, going back to the good old days in
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    opposition, attacking us as the Government for our record, and attacking us as an ex-Government for our policies. There is nothing that he enjoys as much as that. No one is better than he is on an occasion like this at stringing together a lot of half-truths, quarter-truths and no-truths, and no one can take longer to do it than he does.
    The gist of the Prime Minister's remarks was that, when I was Minister of Labour, I should have set up a Royal Commission. He constantly tried to make out that I was under great pressure to do so. That is why I drew his attention a few days ago to the facts about the Motion on the Order Paper. It started with two signatures and was on the Order Paper throughout the whole Session. By the end of the Session, it had accumulated seven signatures.
    So the Prime Minister, having been dished of his argument, then had to quote Dr. Johnson—the recent Dr. Johnson—saying that the Whips had stopped it. I can assure the Prime Minister from my own experience that, when right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House want to support a Motion, they do so despite the Whips. Perhaps it happens even on the other side of the House. In any case, it is better than the Prime Minister sending his Chief Whip round to get the signatures of his party against selling arms to South Africa in order to "do in" his own Foreign Secretary and Minister of Defence, especially when both were serving their country abroad.
    If there was real pressure for a Royal Commission while I was Minister of Labour, where would we look for it? Surely to the Labour Opposition of the day—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because it is supposed to have been a dynamic Opposition in which the right hon. Gentleman was the Shadow Chancellor. He was deeply concerned with the economic situation at the time. He was in modernising mood. Even then he was just beginning to glow with the white heat of the technological revolution.
    But was he worried about unconstitutional or unofficial strikes? Surely we would have found him pressing the Minister of Labour of the day for a Royal Commission to inquire into all this. We would have found him questioning the Minister of Labour at Question Time week after week. We would have found

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    the Opposition putting down, on Supply day after Supply day, a demand for a Royal Commission to deal with this situation. We would have found Motions of censure.
    What did we find? Not a squeak. Just that magnificent document "Signpost for the Sixties", of which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues were so proud, which was reprinted ten times between 1961 and 1963. Was there a mention in that of unconstitutional or unofficial strikes or a demand for a Royal Commission? There was not a mention in the whole document.
    But let me be fair to the right hon. Gentleman. Having pursued his speeches thoughout this time I find one mention of the trade unions. With his infallible memory, the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt recall that it was on 28th October, 1959, during his speech on the Address. What did he say about the trade unions? He praised them for pushing up wages far faster than prices. There is not much sign there of being worried about unofficial or unconstitutional strikes.
    The real pressure came from elsewhere, and it was a quite different pressure. There was an Amendment to this famous Motion on the Order Paper. That Amendment strongly opposed the setting up of a Royal Commission. It called on Her Majesty's Government to allow these voluntary associations of working people to arrange their own affairs in conformity with their rights within the law. That Amendment was signed by a then very prominent member of the Labour Party—none other than the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown). That was from where the pressure came. Of course, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite agreed. They did not think that it was right to have a Royal Commission. Neither did the right hon. Gentleman, nor his colleagues. Therefore, who is he to criticise us at that time for not having set up a Royal Commission? Today, in the same way, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite think it right that their Government should not have legislated. We all know that. So let the right hon. Gentleman be honest and sincere about it.
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    Some of us were worried at that time about unofficial or unconstitutional strikes. In fact, we got some action through the T.U.C. The Prime Minister would not acknowledge that this afternoon. But we got action and we have learned the lessons from it. That is the important thing. However, that is what the Government have not learned. We have found from experience that, however hard the T.U.C. tries, it has not been able successively to deal with these problems.
    In November, 1959, Mr. Trevor Evans, as he then was, a much-respected industrial correspondent whom the Prime Minister has often praised, wrote:
    "Sir Thomas Williamson, pale-faced and tense, declared passionately last night, 'We are really going to deal with this question'. He was talking about the wildcat strikes and all sorts of unofficial actions which are giving the trade unions a bad name."
    He went on to say that it was the result of my going to the Ministry of Labour and discussing it with the T.U.C. that it took that action. To my regret, although it got information and tried to be effective, it did not succeed.
    But the other interesting point is that it had the power to deal with unconstitutional strikes under Rule 11, as it then was. The power was there. It did not require the Croydon amendment to enable it to deal in this way with unofficial strikes.
    In July, we had the employers and the T.U.C. jointly agreeing to do a complete review of industrial relations. They undertook that after discussions with me at the Ministry of Labour, and it was a comprehensive review in the same way as a Royal Commission would have been. Were we wrong to get this action out of the T.U.C.? Ought we to have refused to do that, and just have set up a Royal Commission? Nobody on that side of the House will say that we were wrong.
    My successor, in the autumn of 1962, arranged with the T.U.C. for it to carry out its review on the structure and purpose of the trade union movement. The T.U.C. was given another chance, and welcomed and encouraged it. There have been minor improvements, but nobody can say that there has been a radical transformation of the T.U.C. as a result of that review of its structure, and it would be the first to agree with that. It

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    was another step forward. Were we wrong to do that? Was my successor wrong to do that? Nobody on that side of the House can challenge that.
    When my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) announced that the Government would set up an inquiry, preferably by joint agreement between the two sides, we got no agreement from the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends to do that. Indeed, he said to his party conference, "We will do it by direct consultation, and without an inquiry". When he came to office he did not do it by direct consultation. He changed back the law as far as Rookes v. Barnard was concerned, and then, six to nine months later, he set up a Royal Commission. "Blocked action" was what the Prime Minister said this afternoon. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    What we did was to give the T.U.C. a number of opportunities to make changes in its own organisation, which is what the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) has been asking for. It made progressive steps, and it made some improvements, but it was not able to deal with the problem as it was, and since then the problem has become worse.
    It is undeniable that there are three times as many unconstitutional strikes now as there were in 1958, excluding the coal industry, which is rapidly declining, and in which the number of unofficial strikes has greatly reduced. We have learned the lesson, and it is that giving opportunities and allowing the T.U.C. to take new steps and to make progress is not enough compared with the scale and requirements of today's needs.
    Mr. Heffer rose—
    Mr. Heath: I shall not give way. I listened in silence to the hon. Gentleman, and I shall refer later to another of his remarks.
    I should like to put forward three broad propositions, on some of which I hope we can secure agreement. First, the impact of bad industrial relations in this country and on its markets abroad today is very considerable indeed. This cannot be denied. As a former Minister of Labour, I know the number of hours lost through sickness, and so on. An employer organises his plant, or his factory, or his firm, to take this into
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    account regularly, and he follows his graphs of sickness. What he cannot compete with, and what wears down management and gives this country a name for unreliability in delivery dates, is the unofficial strike to such a large degree.
    Going abroad, one knows full well that there is no complaint today about British prices. There is very little complaint about British design. There is complaint about unreliability of delivery dates; and the industries which are so much affected are, of course, the motor industry and the dock industry.—[Interruption.] There is no point in accusing me of giving things away. This is known outside the country by the people who are waiting for deliveries.
    The second broad proposition on which I hope we can have agreement is the importance of trade unions in the modern industrial State.—[An HON. MEMBER: "Is the right hon. Gentleman sure?"] I am sure. I do not think that anybody can deny that. They are important to industry, to the individual, and to the nation itself. They are, therefore, a great source of power, sometimes regulated, and sometimes unregulated, and I believe that they are in the same position as other sources of power. They cannot be outside the law of the country. This is in no way a condemnation of trade unionism. This is a recognition of its achievements over the past century and a half, and the importance of its position today in a modern State.
    I cannot understand how anyone, least of all a party which prides itself upon its democracy, or upon the need for democracy in the modern State, can object to any source of power being within the general content of the law. This means that it is subject to Parliament, that it observes the rules laid down by Parliament, in the interests of its members and of the community, as all other great corporations must, and have been brought to do throughout history.
    The third broad proposition is that this means that there has to be an up-to-date legal framework for trade unionism in exactly the same way as there is for any other corporate body, whether it is a nationalised industry subject to Parliament, a company or corporation, subject to the Board of Trade and to

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    10-yearly reviews of its legislation. It was fashionable to say, certainly when I was in the Ministry of Labour, that industrial relations are human relations, and, with that, to dismiss legislation, as the hon. Member for Walton has just done. Industrial relations are indeed human relations, but they are not only human relations.
    Moreover, human relations have to be considered in the context of the law. If the law is changed, human behaviour changes as well. The last person to deny this is the right hon. Lady the First Secretary. In another context, that of reform of traffic law, she, by one very simple measure, changed the whole of social behaviour in this country. Whether or not one agreed with it, and personally I did, the fact that she introduced the regulations which brought in the breathalyser meant that people have consistently behaved differently ever since, and will go on doing so.
    This is the point about changing the legal context of trade unionism. There are some hon. Gentlemen who argue as if trade unions lived in a vacuum. This is not the case. They exist on the basis of the law and there is nothing sacrosanct about the law. It has existed almost in its entirety for 60 years and the time has come when, like every other great corporation and every other branch of law, it needs to be brought up to date. The question is about the way in which this should be done.
    Again, I put forward three broad propositions. The areas in which this should be done are in the registration of unions and in matters concerning their rules, members' rights, rights of appeal against unfair dismissal, and so on. This is a broad area affecting the organisation of the unions and their members, to be done, we suggest, through a new registrar, under Parliament. I also believe that if there were to be completely fresh registration many of the measures at present urged by leading trade unionists would automatically come about, including the reduction in the number of unions. Real registration would mean that the unions would consider that their interests were best served in a modern state by coming together in different and larger units. There is not the momentum there at the moment for it to come about otherwise.
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    The second broad area of legislation is in the enforcement of agreements. like all other contracts. The point was made by the Prime Minister this afternoon that our proposal is that they should be enforceable unless both sides agree to contract out, and he said that it was unworkable. The fact is that it works in the other industrial countries of the Western world. On television the other night the right hon. Lady said that this means that an employer will be imposing it on a union.
    It means nothing of the sort; it means that it is part of the negotiation. The importance of it is surely that what an employer wants from a contract is security for the period of the contract, and this is something for which, it is shown in other Western countries, he is prepared to pay. That is why it is part of the negotiations. If it is enforceable then he knows that in the great majority of cases it will be adhered to by the trade unions and their members. That is why there is very tough bargaining when contracts are formed and why, afterwards, it is adhered to in the majority of cases for its period of tenure, usually up to three years.
    Why should not this be so? There are advantages to the member in higher wages, to the employer in security and to the nation in reliability of production and deliveries. This cannot be argued against by hon. Gentlemen opposite. What I sometimes suspect is that inherently they want to have it both ways; to be able to hold an employer to his bond and at the same time be free themselves to break it whenever they like. This cannot be a satisfactory basis for healthy industrial relations.
    The third aspect with which we must deal in considering legislation regarding strikes is the cooling-off period put forward by the Government and the strike ballot. I do not understand why this method cannot be used in a modern industrial society. If there is a dispute, what is wrong with having an order that work should be resumed while, in the full spotlight of publicity and a court order, the dispute is resolved? This would be of advantage to the trade unions, employers and the nation.
    We then come to the question of enforcement and, first, the question of honouring agreements which have been

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    negotiated and to which both sides say they will adhere. I believe, again, what Western industrial experience proves that the great majority of trade unions will honour those agreements once they are made.
    It is said that they will need legal advice in making them. I am strongly in favour of this. I believe that, when made, an agreement should be clearly understood without any possible measure of doubt. I know that when a trade union asks its legal advisers whether or not it will be breaking an agreement, it gets clear advice and may be told that it will be breaking it. This, again, is another strong pressure for orderly industrial life and this, I believe, is advantagous to freely negotiated enforcible agreements.
    If a union breaks an agreement, it knows that its funds will be at stake. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah".] I do not know why hon. Gentlemen opposite exclaim "Ah" at that. In the rest of society one knows that if one breaks an agreement, an opportunity for redress will be given to those with whom one has made the contract. Why should industrial relations be the one sphere in society which is exempt from this provision?
    But, of course, the Prime Minister and the right hon. Lady have been asking: what is to happen when individuals break agreements? The right hon. Lady was proposing that the courts should be able to intervene and enforce a penalty. The Government went wrong in allowing all this argument to come down to fines for individuals, whereas the pressure should be on the unions themselves [Interruption.] Do I gather that the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) is saying that a trade union should sign a solemn agreement and then be allowed to break it with impunity?
    Mr. John Mendelson rose—
    Hon. Members: Sit down.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order.
    Mr. Mendelson rose—
    Mr. Heath: As I was saying—
    Mr. Mendelson: On a point of order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] Is it not the established custom that when a right hon. Gentleman asks an hon. Mem-
    766
    ber a question, he should be allowed to answer it?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the House will allow me to hear the point of order. Mr. Mendelson.
    Mr. Heath rose—
    Mr. Mendelson rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is for the right hon. Gentleman to decide whether he is giving way. Mr. Heath.
    Mr. Heath: The Prime Minister spoke for an hour and two minutes this afternoon. If the hon. Member for Penistone continues his interruption he will be taking time off the speech of his right hon. Friend.
    If there is to be any sort of order in industrial relations the trade unions themselves must be prepared to back up contracts freely made. That is the basis for any healthy industrial life. I disagree with the Prime Minister and the C.B.I. about employers enforcing contracts. I say so quite bluntly. I believe that the difference between the Government and ourselves and the C.B.I. is not a question of having enforceability of contracts but how they should be enforced. If a union wants to see a contract enforced it should allow the employer to dismiss a man who breaks it and back up the employer in doing so. [Interruption.] Is the Prime Minister saying that when an individual breaks a contract the union should not support the employer? If he is saying that it completely undermines his present position.
    The cooling-off period, we believe, should be done through a court. There was a great deal of objection, again from below the Gangway, because of the question of penalties. I draw the attention of the House to something which I think has been greatly overlooked. That is the representation which the T.U.C. made to the right hon. Lady last Sunday. This is on the question of unfair dismissal, which our proposals also cover. It says that the employer could be taken to court, and we agree, if there is suspected unfair dismissal. It says that there ought to be compensation for a man if he is unfairly dismissed, or the court should order the employer to take him back. It says that rather than have the board which the Government are proposing a

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    preferable arrangement would be for an appropriate existing court to impose a continuing financial penalty on an employer for each day for which an order for reinstatement is defied. This means that though an employer is ordered by a court to take a man back and he should be fined, and fined so much a day if he defies the order, if a court orders a man to return to work the T.U.C. says that in no circumstances will it stand for it. How can there be a basis of healthy industrial relationships with a one-sided arrangement like that?
    I return to my question to the Prime Minister. I asked what happens if the unions fail in that their people do not take any notice of them? He said that some unions can expel them. Are we to accept that in a closed shop for one offence a man should lose his livelihood? Some unions have out-of-date rules. The Prime Minister has strongly condemned the rules of the A.E.F., and understandably so. Is he to insist that men should be treated like this rather than by a court of law, which he himself proposed, or a board? Of course not. Many unions have no power in their rule books. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] "Hear, hear", says the Prime Minister.
    The right hon. Gentleman is left with nothing. Originally, he had a proposal. It was that the court would then intervene and the court would make an order which would apply the penalties, or, in his case, the board would make an order and apply the penalties. This is why I asked the question when the Prime Minister made his statement, because it reveals what he had in his original proposals and has not got from the T.U.C.
    This is the difference between what he was able to get in his solemn declaration and what he wanted in his original proposals which, apart from the means of implementing them, I believe was absolutely right. So he has abandoned this with nothing to replace it and that is why all his posturing since he made that retreat and the whole of his speech today is nothing but a disgraceful sham.
    The right hon. Gentleman himself said the announcement at Croydon, what they gave him in a change of rules, was not enough. At the famous last meeting he told them that they must tighten and strengthen them, but they did neither.
    768
    They repeated that they would amend the rules they had at Croydon which they undertook to use then. What changed the Prime Minister's position was the insistence of the T.U.C., and it was the message from his right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). That was what changed him; that was what brought about the retreat of the Government, in spite of their fair and fine words.
    Today, there has been a debate on industrial relations, but underneath this question, which in itself is big enough, there has been an even bigger one, and it is this: who, in fact, is to govern this country? The final words of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Walton to this side of the House were, "We will not have your proposals put into effect." Now let me ask the Prime Minister this question: when a party goes to the country with proposals in its electoral mandate, and the country returns that party to power, has the right hon. Gentleman's movement got the right to frustrate the democratic will?
    That is the question that the Prime Minister has got to face. That is the question to which I want an answer from the right hon. Gentleman and from the right hon. Lady, because in my view it is clear that what we have to return to is democratic rule in this country by the elected Government. The Prime Minister has abandoned it. He has retreated. He himself ended his speech by saying tonight that the House must decide. This is true. But shortly the country will decide and it will decide that the democratic will in Parliament will prevail.
    9.33 p.m.
    The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mrs. Barbara Castle): I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition for his tribute to me for my legislation as Minister of Transport, even though he took five minutes from my time in giving it. But to hear him talk about the value of legislation in changing attitudes one would never have thought that the Conservative Party fought the Leicester, South-West by-election against the breathalyser.
    Mr. Tom Boardman rose—
    Hon. Members: Give way.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. Mrs. Castle.
    Mr. Boardman rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Boardman: On a point of order. Is it in order—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not persist. The right hon. Lady is not giving way.
    Mr. Boardman rose—
    Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The debate is much too important to be marred by noisy interruptions. I hope that the House will allow me to hear the right hon. Lady.
    Mr. Boardman: On a point of order. The right hon. Lady has made a quite incorrect remark. Is it in order for her—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not enter into a debate by using a point of order.
    Mrs. Castle rose—
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The House has given a fair hearing to all the speakers so far. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I hope that hon. Members will also afford that treatment to the right hon. Lady.
    Mrs. Castle rose—
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.
    Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman spoiled his speech—
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the House will allow me to hear what the right hon. Lady has to say.
    Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman spoiled his speech by distorting the truth about the Government. He was given a democratic hearing, and I should have thought that, having ended his speech on a great high note about the rights of democracy, he would at least have given the person winding up the debate a democratic hearing. As always, we have to test hon. Members opposite not by their words but by their deeds. They have
    770
    only one interest in the argument tonight, and that is to suppress the other side.
    The right hon. Gentleman again reiterated tonight one of his favourite themes that he has been producing throughout the country on this matter—that there has been an abdication of government. There is only one of his purple passages that he forgot to include, the one with which he regaled the Tory faithful at their rally in Dorset a few days ago, when he declared that we had surrendered—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The tradition of the House is that it gives a hearing to a speech, even when it does not like it.
    Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman told the Tory faithful at their rally in Dorset that we had surrendered to the Labour Party's paymasters in the trade unions. It is a little dangerous these days for the Tory Party to use that argument, because this Government have passed the Companies Act and at last directors have to disclose what they were quietly slipping into the pockets of the Conservative Party, and if we are talking about paymasters let us get the picture accurate
    Since the Companies Act was passed in 1967, a total of 198 firms have given over £750,000 to Tory Party and allied organisation funds. In 1967, the last year for which published figures are available, the Labour Party received £250.000 from the trade unions in affiliation fees. So let us not have this talk about paymasters and when we are discussing the industrial relations policy of the Conservative Party never let us forget who are their paymasters.
    We are delighted that we have at last managed to entice the Leader of the Opposition out of his corner to debate industrial relations on the Floor of the House. In doing so, we have put the Opposition in a considerable dilemma as to the grounds on which they should conduct the debate. Of course it had to be a Motion of censure, because they think that they are hot on the scent of a political dividend from which they intend to wring every scrap of party profit before they let it go. So the Motion had to be purely an attack on the Government. But attack us for what?
    One must sympathise with the Opposition in their dilemma here. On the one hand, their whole case against the Government falls to the ground if they have

    771
    to admit that the T.U.C. and its constituent unions were in earnest in giving us that solemn and binding undertaking. On the other hand, they are just beginning to wake up to the fact that, by denouncing the agreement as worthless, as they rushed to do when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced it on 19th June, they have, in one Freudian lapse, undone the patient work of years building up their disguise as the trade unionists' friends, and they have demonstrated to every trade unionist in the country the contempt in which the Tory Party holds the trade union movement—a contempt voiced by none other than the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) their tame Tory trade unionist who, on 19th June, denounced the agreement with the T.U.C. as the greatest confidence trick of the century.
    I know that, in today's debate, the hon. Gentleman has been trying to backtrack on that, to correct his Freudian slip, by explaining that he meant a confidence trick by the Government on the I.M.F. That will not wash either. The Leader of the Opposition tried that one out on 19th June, when he solemnly warned the Prime Minister that the House would have an ample opportunity to discuss the Government's conduct in this matter in the debate on the Letter of Intent—and in the event, the Opposition Front Bench spokesmen barely alluded to it because the Letter of Intent makes no reference to legislation on industrial relations.
    Many hon. Members opposite must have been regretting that orgy of spite against the trade unions which they let loose in their fanatical hatred of the Prime Minister. Wiser counsels have prevailed since then, and so they have taken very great care this time in drafting their Motion. As the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) said in his opening speech, "this Motion censures the Government and no one else". But to concoct such a Motion they had to rely on a technicality, the promise they say the Chancellor made in his Budget speech that we would legislate this Session. Well, let us get the technicality out of the way so that we can get down to the realities that lie behind their spurious Motion.
    772
    Of course they have tried to build this up into a great issue. The right hon. Member for Mitcham said that the Chancellor had made his announcement a key part of his Budget speech. Did he? I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman turns up HANSARD of 15th April and he will find the Chancellor's reference to an Industrial Relations Bill tucked away in a very small corner of a very long speech. Out of the 2,844 lines of the Chancellor's speech, 24 were devoted to industrial relations.
    Hon. Members: Read it.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Hon. Members do the reputation of this House no good by refusing to hear the right hon. Lady's speech.
    Mrs. Castle: The House perfectly well knows that the Chancellor made a passing reference—
    Hon. Members: Read it.
    Mrs. Castle:—adding that—
    Hon. Members: Read it.
    Mrs. Castle: If this is hon. Gentlemen's version of democracy they can have it.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck: On a point of order. Owing to the braying on the other side of the House we cannot hear what is said on this side.
    Mrs. Castle: The Chancellor added that I would be dealing fully with it the following day. And so I did. Having outlined my proposals I told the House that the Prime Minister and I were meeting representatives of the T.U.C. to describe these proposals to them, and I added these words:
    "We shall repeat what my right hon. Friend told them last Friday, that in the weeks that lie ahead, before the Bill is presented, and while it is being discussed in Parliament, the Government will still be prepared to consider any alternative proposals from the T.U.C. for achieving its purposes equally effectively and equally urgently."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1969; Vol. 781, c. 1186–7.]
    So much for the promise we are supposed to have broken. On the contrary, we kept our promise to the House and the T.U.C. The fact is that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) said in his most telling speech, in censuring the Government for dropping the legislation, the Opposition are censuring our agreement with the

    773
    T.U.C., censuring us for taking the T.U.C. at its word. Recognising this fact and its implications for their attitude towards the trade union movement, hon. Gentlemen opposite have been back-tracking furiously, joining belatedly in the tributes that have been paid to the historic importance of this change in trade union attitudes—tributes paid by Lord Stokes, Sir Peter Runge, even by the C.B.I., which has been back-tracking too, I am glad to say, since Mr. John Davies' unfortunate Freudian slip about lavatories. Even the C.B.I., in its letter of 25th June to its own membership said:
    "There can be little doubt that in undertaking a totally new rôle the T.U.C. has taken a major step forward in seeking to establish its authority."
    "Ah but" say the right hon. Member for Mitcham and the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), "the T.U.C. undertaking, welcome as it is, is not enough". This is what we have been told during the debate today. Enough for what? The right hon. Member for Mitcham said, "This debate is topical, look at today's strikes, the signalmen's one-day strike and the Merseyside dock strike". Let us look at them. What characterises them? Of course they are in breach of procedure; of course we deplore them for that; of course they cause inconvenience to the general public and damage to the economy, and are a threat to the livelihood of the strikers themselves. That is what we have been driving home and must go on driving home if we are to deal with the problem of strikes.
    But the important thing about the strikes for the purpose of this argument on the censure Motion is that they are being prosecuted against the advice of the union, yet not only are the local officials in there batting hard to bring them to an end, but the national officials are in there batting, too. I have no doubt that it will be a disappointment to hon. Gentlemen opposite when I tell them of the news that has just come through. I will read what has come from the tape:
    "Agreement reached at a meeting in London today between employers and unions on the employment of registered dock workers at the container base at Aintree, near Liverpool."
    What could have been a protracted and damaging strike has, I am glad to say, now been brought to this conclusion. The unions have been in there as officials, using their best endeavours. What more does the right hon. Gentleman ask?
    774
    If these agreements had been in the form of legally binding contracts, how would it have helped? The union has not been breaking the contracts. As for the individual strikers, how would the right hon. Gentleman deal with them? The question he asked of my right hon. Friend was spelt out in "Fair Deal at Work". The Tories know that this question lies at their door far more than it ever did at ours. They ask in "Fair Deal at Work" what will be the position if large numbers of employees strike in breach of agreement and reject the most vigorous efforts of their union to get a return to work. They point out—and the right hon. Gentleman has repeated it tonight—that it is the employer who should take action, not the Government. He said that it should lie with the employer to sue, but "Fair Deal at Work" points out that employers can already sue their employees for breach of contract and do not do so. This is how "Fair Deal at Work" answers this great question
    "Our main answer to the question, however, is not that our proposals provide a watertight remedy, but that, for the reasons given above, their total effect would be to make the occurrence of such situations much less likely than at present."
    Imagine the jeers of the right hon. Gentleman if the Prime Minister had given that answer to the Leader of the Opposition on 19th June!
    I agree with the right hon. Member for Mitcham. We need to change attitudes of mind and, as he said, create the environment. That was the purpose of our White Paper and of the proposals in the interim Bill—not merely a change of attitude on the part of trade unions, but first and foremost a change of attitude by management.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) is right. In this controversy there has been far too much concentration on the responsibilities of trade unions and not enough on the responsibilities of management. In all their lofty rhetoric about strikes, hon. Gentlemen opposite never talk about the responsibilities of management. "Fair Deal at Work" uses the old Victorian language about the "fundamental prerogatives of management ". But it is an arid, legalistic, negative document spawned by lawyers to make a lawyers paradise. It is such a masterpiece of

    775
    double talk, that nobody has yet got clear just exactly how the Tory policy will operate. One minute it is "both", the next it is "either", which ever word they think of using. Nobody knows what is in their minds.
    But we, for our part, have already produced a change of attitude. It was our willigness to face up to this problem, to throw down a challenge to the trade union movement—[Interruption.]—that has concentrated the trade union mind wonderfully. What has changed the attitude of the trade union movement has been our constant reiteration—reiteration by the Prime Minister and myself—in all these talks that, "We must legislate if you do not legislate". Even my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby admits it. He said, "I might not agree with your objective, but your tactics have worked."
    We have been witnessing a revolution in attitudes. I remember the Press reports after the Croydon Trades Union Conference, the Press coverage of which has been rivalled only by a certain recent investiture. There was The Guardian saying that the Government would be made to miss this opportunity:
    "If the penal clauses are dropped the Conservatives will probably raise the cry that the Government are putting the party before country. The Prime Minister should ignore this danger. The Conservatives' own industrial proposals will do the country and its industry more harm than good."
    The Financial Times put the matter slightly more moderately. After having paid tribute to the great progress made by the T.U.C., and having said that this was not merely done to ward off legislation—[Interruption.]—it concluded as follows:
    "What the Government must have, before it allows the T.U.C. a last chance to put its own house in order, is an assurance that the new powers it has taken will be used, and used effectively".
    That is the assurance which the Prime Minister and I spent days in getting. My hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) was quite right—we were tough negotiators. Everything that has happened since has shown how seriously the T.U.C. or the trade union leaders have been taking that solemn undertaking.
    We have seen the leadership given by Vic Feather, the activity of Jack Jones in the recent strikes, the courageous feat of Hughie Scanlon at the Confederation annual conference, the letters which have been pouring out from the General Council to the membership calling for the setting up of firefighting organisations for the strengthening of resources and the overhauling of rules [Interruption.] Of course hon Gentlemen opposite sneer. We now face a situation in which hon. Members opposite will have a vested interest in an increase in the number of strikes. Day after day they will raise in this House every unofficial strike—[Interruption.]—strikes about which they did nothing. They will hope and pray the T.U.C. will pay—
    Mr. William Whitelaw (Penrith and The Borders) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put:—
    Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
    Question put accordingly, That the Amendment be made:—
    The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 242.

    Division No. 306.]

    AYES

    [10.0 p.m.

    Albu, Austen

    Binns, John

    Buchan, Norman

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Bishop, E. S.

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Alldritt, Walter

    Blackburn, F.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Anderson, Donald

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Archer, Peter

    Boardman, H. (Leigh)

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Ashley, Jack

    Booth, Albert

    Cant, R. B.

    Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

    Boston, Terence

    Carmichael, Neil

    Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

    Boyd en, James

    Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Bradley, Tom

    Chapman, Donald

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Coe, Denis

    Barnes, Michael

    Brooks, Edwin

    Concannon, J. D.

    Barnett, Joel

    Broughton, Sir Alfred

    Conlan, Bernard

    Baxter, William

    Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Beaney, Alan

    Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Bence, Cyril

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

    Cronin, John

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Orme, Stanley

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Oswald, Thomas

    Dalyell, Tam

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

    Darling, Rt. Hn. George

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

    Padley, Walter

    Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Paget, R. T.

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)

    Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

    Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

    Delargy, Hugh

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Park, Trevor

    Dell, Edmund

    Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Dempsey, James

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

    Dewar, Donald

    Judd, Frank

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Kelley, Richard

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Dickens, James

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

    Dobson, Ray

    Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

    Pentland, Norman

    Doig, Peter

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

    Driberg, Tom

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Dunn, James A.

    Lawson, George

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R, E.

    Dunnett, Jack

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Ledger, Ron

    Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Eadie, Alex

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Edelman, Maurice

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Rankin, John

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Rees, Merlyn

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Ellis, John

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Richard, Ivor

    English, Michael

    Lipton, Marcus

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Ennals, David

    Lomas, Kenneth

    Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

    Ensor, David

    Loughlin, Charles

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Luard, Evan

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth(St. P 'c' as)

    Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Rodgers, William (Stockton)

    Faulds, Andrew

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Roebuck, Roy

    Fernyhough, E.

    McCann, John

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Finch, Harold

    MacColl, James

    Ross, Rt. Hn. William

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Rowlands, E,

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Ryan, John

    Foley, Maurice

    McGuire, Michael

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

    Ford, Ben

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

    Forrester, John

    Mackie, John

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Fowler, Gerry

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    Maclennan, Robert

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Freeson, Reginald

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

    Gardner, Tony

    McM llan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Silverman, Julius

    Garrett, W. E.

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Ginsburg, David

    Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

    Slater, Joseph

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    Small, William

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Snow, Julian

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    Manuel, Archie

    Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

    Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

    Mapp, Charles

    Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

    Marks, Kenneth

    Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

    Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

    Marquand, David

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

    Swain, Thomas

    Hamling, William

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Taverne, Dick

    Hannan, William

    Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

    Harper, Joseph

    Mendelson, John

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Thornton, Ernest

    Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

    Millan, Bruce

    Tinn, James

    Haseldine, Norman

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Tomney, Frank

    Hattersley, Roy

    Milne, Edward (Blyth)

    Tuck, Raphael

    Hazell, Bert

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

    Urwin, T. W.

    Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

    Molloy, William

    Varley, Eric G.

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Moonman, Eric

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Henig, Stanley

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Hilton, W. S.

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Wallace, George

    Hooley, Frank

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    Watkins, David (Consett)

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Moyle, Roland

    Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Weitzman, David

    Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

    Murray, Albert

    Wellbeloved, James

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Neal, Harold

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Howie, W.

    Newens, Stan

    Whitaker, Ben

    Hoy, Rt. Hn. James

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Norwood, Christopher

    Whitlock, William

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Oakes, Gordon

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Ogden, Eric

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Hunter, Adam

    O'Malley, Brian

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

    Oram, Albert E.

    Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Willis, Rt. Hn. George

    Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

    Woof, Robert

    Mr. Alan Fitch and

    Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

    Wyatt, Woodrow

    Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

    Winnick, David

    NOES

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

    Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

    Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

    Astor, John

    Goodhart, Philip

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

    Goodhew, Victor

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Awdry, Daniel

    Grant, Anthony

    Monro, Hector

    Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

    Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Balniel, Lord

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

    Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Grieve, Percy

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Batsford, Brian

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Gurden, Harold

    Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Bell, Ronald

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Murton, Oscar

    Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

    Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

    Neave, Airey

    Biffen, John

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Nott, John

    Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Onslow, Cranley

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Blaker, Peter

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

    Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Body, Richard

    Hawkins, Paul

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Hay, John

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

    Braine, Bernard

    Heseltine, Michael

    Peel, John

    Brewis, John

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Percival, Ian

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Hiley, Joseph

    Peyton, John

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Hill, J. E. B.

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pink, R. Bonner

    Bruce-Gardyne, J.

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Pounder, Rafton

    Bryan, Paul

    Holland, Philip

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Buck, Antony (Colchester)

    Hordern, Peter

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Hornby, Richard

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Burden, F. A.

    Howell, David (Guildford)

    Pym, Francis

    Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

    Hunt, John

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Carlisle, Mark

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hn, Sir Peter

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

    Chataway, Christopher

    Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead)

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Clark, Henry

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Clegg, Walter

    Jopling, Michael

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Cooke, Robert

    Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

    Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

    Corfield, F. V.

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Robson Brown, Sir William

    Costain, A. P.

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Crouch, David

    Kimball, Marcus

    Royle, Anthony

    Crowder, F. P.

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Kirk, Peter

    St. John-Stevas, Norman

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Kitson, Timothy

    Scott, Nicholas

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Dance, James

    Lambton, Viscount

    Sharples, Richard

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Dean, Paul

    Lane, David

    Silvester, Frederick

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

    Dodds-Parker, Douglas

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Smith, John (London & W'minster)

    Doughty, Charles

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut' nC' dfield)

    Speed, Keith

    Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Stainton, Keith

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Stodart, Anthony

    du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Longden, Gilbert

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

    Eden, Sir John

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Mac Arthur, Ian

    Tapsell, Peter

    Emery, Peter

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

    Eyre, Reginald

    McMaster, Stanley

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Farr, John

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Fisher, Nigel

    McNair-Wilson, Michael

    Tilney, John

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Fortescue, Tim

    Maddan, Martin

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Foster, Sir John

    Maginnis, John E.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

    Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

    Vickers, Dame Joan

    Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

    Marten, Neil

    Waddington, David

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Maude, Angus

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    Mawby, Ray

    Walters, Dennis

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Wylie, N. R.

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Younger, Hn. George

    Weatherill, Bernard

    Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Woodnutt, Mark

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Worsley, Marcus

    Mr. R. W. Elliott and

    Wiggin, A. W.

    Wright, Esmond

    Mr. Jasper More.

    William, Donald (Dudley)

    Main question, as amended, put:—
    The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 242.

    Division No. 307.]

    AYES

    [10.12 p.m.

    Albu, Austen

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

    Alldritt, Walter

    Eadie, Alex

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Anderson, Donald

    Edelman, Maurice

    Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)

    Archer, Peter

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Ashley, Jack

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    Judd, Frank

    Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

    Ellis, John

    Kelley, Richard

    Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

    English, Michael

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

    Ennals, David

    Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Ensor, David

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Barnes, Michael

    Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

    Lawson, George

    Barnett, Joel

    Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Baxter, William

    Faulds, Andrew

    Ledger, Ron

    Beaney, Alan

    Fernyhough, E.

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

    Bence, Cyril

    Finch, Harold

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Binns, John

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Bishop, E. S.

    Foley, Maurice

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Blackburn, F.

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Ford, Ben

    Lipton, Marcus

    Boardman, H. (Leigh)

    Forrester, John

    Lomas, Kenneth

    Booth, Albort

    Fowler, Gerry

    Loughlin, Charles

    Boston, Terence

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    Luard, Evan

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Freeson, Reginald

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Boyden, James

    Gardner, Tony

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Bradley, Tom

    Garrett, W. E.

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Ginsburg, David

    McCann, John

    Brooks, Edwin

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

    MacColl, James

    Broughton, Sir Alfred

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    McGuire, Michael

    Brown, Bob(N'c'tlc-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury

    Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Buchan, Norman

    Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

    Mackie, John

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Maclennan, Robert

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Hamling, William

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Hannan, William

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Cant, R. B.

    Harper, Joseph

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Carmichael, Neil

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    Castle, Rt. Hn Barbara

    Haseldine, Norman

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Chapman, Donald

    Hattersley, Roy

    Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.)

    Coe, Denis

    Hazell, Bert

    Manuel, Archie

    Concannon, J. D.

    Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

    Mapp, Charles

    Conlan, Bernard

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Marks, Kenneth

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Henig, Stanley

    Marquand, David

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Hilton, W. S.

    Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

    Cronin, John

    Hooley, Frank

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Mendelson, John

    Dalyell, Tarn

    Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

    Darling, Rt. Hn. George

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

    Howie, W.

    Millan, Bruce

    Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

    Hoy, Rt. Hn. James

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Milne, Edward (Blyth)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

    Dell, Edmund

    Molloy, William

    Dempsey, James

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Moonman, Eric

    Dewar, Donald

    Hunter, Adam

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hid)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Dickens, James

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Dobson, Ray

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    Doig, Peter

    Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Moyle, Roland

    Driberg, Tom

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Dunn, James A.

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Murray, Albert

    Dunnett, Jack

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

    Neal, Harold

    Newens, Stan

    Richard, Ivor

    Tomney, Frank

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Tuck, Raphael

    Norwood, Christopher

    Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

    Urwin, T. W.

    Oakes, Gordon

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Varley, Eric G.

    Ogden, Eric

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    O'Malley, Brian

    Rodgers, William (Stockton)

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Oram, Albert E.

    Roebuck, Roy

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Wallace, George

    Orme, Stanley

    Ross, Rt. Hn. William

    Watkins, David (Consett)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Rowlands, E.

    Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

    Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

    Ryan, John

    Weitzman, David

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Wellbeloved, James

    Padley, Walter

    Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Paget, R. T.

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Whitaker, Ben

    Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

    Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Park, Trevor

    Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

    Whitlock, William

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Silverman, Julius

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Slater, Joseph

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Small, William

    Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

    Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

    Snow, Julian

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Pentland, Norman

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Willis, Rt. Hn. George

    Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

    Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

    Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

    Winnick, David

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

    Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

    Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

    Woof, Robert

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Taverne, Dick

    Wyatt, Woodrow

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

    Rankin, John

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Rees, Merlyn

    Thornton, Ernest

    Mr. Alan Fitch and

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Tinn, James

    Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

    NOES

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Hawkins, Paul

    Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hay, John

    Astor, John

    Dance, James

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

    d'Avigrior-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Awdry, Daniel

    Dean, Paul

    Heseltine, Michael

    Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Balniel, Lord

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Hiley, Joseph

    Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Dodds-Parker, Douglas

    Hill, J. E. B.

    Batsford, Brian

    Doughty, Charles

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Bell, Ronald

    Drayson, G. B.

    Holland, Philip

    Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

    du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Hordern, Peter

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

    Eden, Sir John

    Hornby, Richard

    Biffen, John

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Howell, David (Guildford)

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Emery, Peter

    Hunt, John

    Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Eyre, Reginald

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Blaker, Peter

    Farr, John

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Body, Richard

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Johnson Smith, G, (E. Grinstead)

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Fortescue, Tim

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Foster, Sir John

    Jopling, Michael

    Boyle, Rt. Hn Sir Edward

    Fraser,Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

    Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

    Braine, Bernard

    Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

    Kaberry, Sir Dona'd

    Brewis, John

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col, Sir Walter

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Bruce-Gardyne, J.

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Bryan, Paul

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Kirk, Peter

    Buck, Antony (Colchester)

    Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

    Kitson, Timothy

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Goodhart, Philip

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Burden, F. A.

    Goodhew, Victor

    Lambton, Viscount

    Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

    Grant, Anthony

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert

    Lane, David

    Carlisle, Mark

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Grieve, Percy

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Chataway, Christopher

    Gurden, Harold

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut' nC' dfield)

    Clark, Henry

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Clegg, Walter

    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Cooke, Robert

    Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Corfield, F. V.

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Costain, A. P.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    MacArthur, Ian

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

    Crouch, David

    Harrison, Brian (Malden)

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Crowder, F, P.

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    McMaster, Stanley

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Percival, Ian

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

    McNair-Wilson, Michael

    Peyton, John

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Tapsell, Peter

    Maddan, Martin

    Pink, R. Bonner

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Maginnis, John E.

    Pounder, Rafton

    Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

    Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Marten, Neil

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Maude, Angus

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Tilney, John

    Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

    Pym, Francis

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Mawby, Ray

    Quennall, Miss J. M.

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Maxwell-Hystop, R. J.

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Vaughan-Morgan. Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

    Vickers, Damo Joan

    Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Waddington, David

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

    walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Monro, Hector

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Walters, Dennis

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

    Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

    Weatherill, Bernard

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Robson Brown, Sir William

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Rodgers. Sir John (Sevenoaks)

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Wiggin, A. W.

    Murton, Oscar

    Royle, Anthony

    Williams, Donald (Dudley)

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Neave, Airey

    St. John-Stevas. Norman

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Scott, Nicholas

    Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Nott, John

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Onslow, Cranley

    Sharples, Richard

    Worsley, Marcus

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Shaw. Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Wright, Esmond

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

    Silvester, Frederick

    Wylie, N. R.

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Younger, Hn. George

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Smith, John (London & W'minster)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    speed, Keith

    Mr. R. W. Elliott and

    Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

    Stainton, Keith

    Mr. Jasper Moore.

    Peel, John

    Stodart, Anthony

    Resolved, That this House endorses the announcement of the Prime Minister on industrial relations on 19th June 1969; welcomes the undertaking given by the General Council of the Trades Union Congress in respect of

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Ordered,
    That the Proceedings on Consideration of the Lords Amendment to the Employer's Liability (Defective Equipment) Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[The Prime Minister.]
    inter-union disputes and unconstitutional stoppages; and rejects the advice of an Opposition who both in office and in opposition failed to produce relevant or workable proposals to bring about a reform in industrial relations.

  SOCIAL SECURITY (SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT)
  10.25 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Mr. David Ennals): I beg to move:
  That the Supplementary Benefit (Determination of Requirements) Regulations 1969, a draft of which was laid before this House on 17th June, be approved.
  The draft Regulations provide for increases to be made in the amounts for basic requirements laid down in paragraphs 9 and 10 of Schedule 2 to the Ministry of Social Security Act. As hon. Members know, to these amounts are added an allowance for rent and, where appropriate, a long-term addition of 10s. plus additions for any special needs to give the total of a person's requirements. It is to this level that a claimant's other resources—less any sums that are disregarded—are made up by the supplementary benefits scheme.
  The increases proposed in the draft Regulations are, in effect, complementary to the changes in national insurance benefits provided for in the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill and, subject to the approval of both Houses, they will take effect from the same week, commencing 3rd November next.
  Before I come to some of the more detailed aspects it may be helpful to the House to look at the proposals in general terms, using, as examples, the two leading scale rates, those for single householders and married couples. I propose to take first the value of the scale rates under the Regulations and secondly the effect of the proposals on people who also have national insurance benefits.
  First the value of the scale rates. The draft Regulations are intended, as from next November, to provide people receiving supplementary benefit with rates equal in value to those introduced in October 1967. The House will recall that last October supplementary benefit rates were increased in accordance with a pledge given by the Prime Minister that the most vulnerable members of the community would receive special protection from the effect of devaluation on living costs. The 1968 increase restored the 1967 real value of the scale rates up to October, 1968; the proposals now before
  788
  the House carry this forward up to November, 1969. Taken together the two increases do for supplementary benefits what the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill aims to do for national insurance benefits by restoring the 1967 values. Increases in rent, which we allow for separately, will of course have been taken into account as they arise.
  The fact that the proposals do not go beyond restoration of the 1967 position has to be seen against the wider background of what has already been achieved in the past few years. In March 1965, just five months after taking office. the Government increased the rates of benefit under the then national assistance scheme by no less than 17 per cent. in real terms—by far the largest increase ever made since 1948. This provided at one go a large increase in living standards for many of the poorest members of the community. This was followed up in 1966 by the new supplementary benefit scheme. This not only raised the scale rates of benefit but introduced the longterm addition (originally 9s., but increased in October last to 10s.). We also introduced up to date and simplified rules about capital and other resources and, above all, the concept of a firm entitlement to benefit. This was an extremely important part of that provision. As a result of these changes large numbers of people were for the first time brought within the scheme to receive the extra help they needed. As a result of all these changes, and other factors, including the widespread publicity campaign which launched the new scheme, the number of people receiving supplementary pension has increased from 1,460,000 in 1966 to 1,890,000 today—a very great achievement indeed.
  1965 and 1966 in their different ways brought about a great advance in the standard and status of means-tested benefits. In 1967 this was enhanced by a further increase in scale rates, which brought the leading rates to a level 23 per cent. above the value of national assistance rates in October, 1964, even excluding the long-term addition, and nearly 20 per cent. above these rates when they were first introduced in May, 1963 by the previous Administration. It is this major advance in our first three years in office which has been consolidated by the 1968 increases and those now proposed.

  789
  The increases in the two main rates (of 5s. for the single householder and 8s. for the married couple) taken with the previous increase of the same amount given in October 1968, when there was no general uprating of national insurance benefits, mean that the main increases in supplementary benefit equal the corresponding increases of 10s. and 16s. proposed under the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill for single and married persons receiving the standard rate of retirement or other national insurance benefit.
  When my right hon. Friend made his statement on the proposed increases in benefits on 10th June, some members on both sides of the House expressed concern at the so-called "leap-frogging" effect which the more frequent supplementary benefit upratings introduced for those who are in receipt both of supplementary benefit and of a retirement pension or other national insurance benefit. As hon. Members know, this effect takes two forms: on the one hand, those with supplementary benefit receive more frequent increases and therefore, tend on each occasion to receive a smaller amount, which may cause some disappointment when a supplementary benefit increase and a general increase of national insurance benefits coincide; on the other hand, when, as-at the present time supplementary benefits go up by the smaller amount and at the same time national insurance benefits go up by the larger amount simultaneously, people receiving both benefits see their supplementary benefit payments reduced, although they get an increase of total income by virtue of their increased national insurance benefit.
  About three-quarters of all supplementary benefit claimants are also entitled to some national insurance benefit, and I assure hon. Members that the Government do not take lightly the perplexity which these changes may cause to come about. In the first place, I should like hon. Members to know that we intend, as at the 1967 combined uprating and in the light of experience gained then, to give the fullest possible explanation of those changes to those affected by them. Leaflets will be published and made available to all those who are in receipt of supplementary benefit.
  Second, I should make clear that by improvements in the procedures of payment we have been able greatly to reduce
  790
  the number of supplementary benefit recipients who will actually receive next November an order book for a smaller amount than before. This is because the great majority of supplementary pensioners are now paid by a single order book on which retirement pension and supplementary benefit are combined in a single payment. This makes it very much easier for people to understand, because they do not get a larger sum on one book and a smaller one on another.
  I ought at this point to refer briefly to the suggestion made by several of my hon. Friends on 10th June that on this occasion supplementary beneficiaries should receive the full amount of the national insurance increase. Such an increase, which would have had to be at the expense of other improvements, would, taken with the 1968 increase, have thrown out of balance the relationship between supplementary benefit rates and national insurance rates, which chiefly benefit people who are above, even if only slightly above, the supplementary benefit level. The White Paper issued last January gave detailed figures on this and also dealt with the related issue of ensuring that, for the future the need for supplementary benefit was gradually reduced by improved benefits earned from contributions. It is our aim in the new scheme, as time goes on, eventually, to raise the level of pensions so that it will be unnecessary for such people to receive supplementary benefit.
  I now turn to some of the more detailed items in the draft Regulations. After setting out the leading rates, namely, the level of requirements for married couples and single householders, the draft Regulations set out the proposed new rate for
  "any other person aged not less than 21 years".
  That is for the single non-householder. Every adult non-householder is entitled to 11 s. standard addition for rent, increased from 10s. last October. The proposed increase of 3s. in the non-householder rate, taken together with the 3s. increase in the scale rate and the Is. increase in the rent addition, both given in 1968, makes a total increase of 7s. since October, 1967, as compared with 10s. to the single householder. The difference between the two increases—like the difference between the rates themselves—is intended to reflect the considerable saving

  791
  to a claimant which results from his being a member of someone else's household. As from November next, the proposed non-householder rate will be £4 8s. inclusive of the standard rent addition, as compared with the scale rate of £4 16s., exclusive of rent, for the single householder.
  The increases of 3s. each, for non-householders aged 16 to 17 and 18 to 20, give a total since October, 1967, of 7s. to the older age group and 6s. to the younger.
  I should like to draw hon. Members' attention to the increase of 3s., to £2 4s., in the scale rate for children aged 13 to 15. When these are taken together with last October's increase, this age group will have received an additional 7s. in all since October 1967 compared with 4s. for the 11-to 12-year-olds with whom they were previously bracketed in a single 11 to 15 age band. This age band was first split into a higher and a lower band last October, following a recommendation of the Supplementary Benefits Commission, by giving a proportionately higher increase to the older group. The argument for this was that there was a greater need for an increase for the higher age range, because of the expenses involved in bringing up adolescent children and the earlier onset of puberty.
  For the two youngest age groups, those aged under five and five to 10, we are proposing an additional Is. to £18s. and £1 13s. respectively. Because the children's rates are smaller in amount than the main rates, it is not always possible to make increases which produce exactly the same proportionate increase as between one uprating and another. Thus, last October we provided a 2s. increase for each of those groups which we are "topping up" this year with only a further Is. The 3s. total increase maintains, to the nearest shilling, the 1967 real value of both rates, and is the same as the increase proposed to be made in the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill to the standard National Insurance addition for a dependent child.
  Members will have noticed that the proposed increases for married and single blind persons are, at 8s. 6d. and 5s. 6d. respectively, 6d. more than those for the corresponding categories of sighted per-
  792
  sons. The main intention of this extra 6d. is to bring the special scale rates for the blind up to an amount in whole shillings in preparation for the changeover to decimal currency in February 1971. The immediate effect will be that about half the blind claimants will receive the same increase as a sighted person, since their existing benefit is rounded up, and about half will receive a shilling more, since their existing benefit is rounded down.
  Apart from the sixpence for decimalisation purposes, we are not proposing any increase in the margin between the scale rates for blind and for sighted persons. It is clear that the margin for the blind is, in the vast majority of cases, sufficient to cover special needs. Where there are exceptional needs, as there are fromt time to time, the Commission has discretionary powers to make up the sums needed in full, and a very sympathetic approach is always taken in such cases. In the light of this the Government consider that it would not be appropriate to increase the amount of the margin which the blind, taken as a group, have over others.
  I come now to cost. The proposals which I have outlined would, in themselves, cost an additional £42 million in the first full year, 1970–71, but because of the higher increases in national insurance benefits which will be received by some three-quarters of all supplementary benefit claimants, there will be a net saving of about £23 million in a full year. This saving has to be seen against a background of steadily rising expenditure on supplementary benefits in the past few years: from £246 million in 1965–66, the last full year of National Assistance, to £386 million in 1967–68, the first full year of the new supplementary benefit scheme, and an estimated near-£470 million in the current year, an increase of 90 per cent. on 1965–66. In part this increase is a reflection of the increased numbers receiving benefits, including the old people who had not previously claimed national assistance, and partly it is due to higher levels of benefit, on which I have touched earlier.
  The draft Regulations will involve the review of over 2½ million assessments for benefit—a task which has to be completed before 3rd November by the staff working

  793
  on supplementary benefits in the Department's local social security offices. This will impose upon them a very heavy burden, and since I am referring to the task which lies before the staff of the Commission, it would be appropriate to express our thanks to them on behalf of the Government and the House for the work they do throughout the country. We are asking the House to approve the draft Regulations at this time because of the size of this task and our wish to ensure that the increases proposed can be brought into effect before the winter. I confidently ask the House to approve the draft Regulations.
  10.42 p.m.
  Mr. John Page: I strongly support the increased scales of supplementary benefit shown in the Regulations. It should be a matter of pride to a civilised country like our own that those who cannot, through no fault of their own, support themselves by their own efforts should be given the best possible standard of living that the country as a community can afford. This should be a basic necessity in our thinking.
  Would the hon. Gentleman elaborate on the position of the families of those who are closely involved in strikes? This is an "industrial relations day" in the House, so perhaps he will explain the position regarding strikers' families. On a rough calculation, it seems to me that while a striker is not entitled to draw supplementary benefit for himself he draws it in respect of his wife and any of his family.
  Am I correct in saying—because I would like the disregards to be checked on here—that one can assume that a wife alone would be drawing something like the £3 17s. Od. and the children at the scales shown? This, if I am right, would mean that the man with a wife and two children would probably be receiving in supplementary benefit while on strike a payment of about £8 per week, to which would be added his rent or mortgage repayments allowance and the payment of health charges.
  Will he also confirm that the Commission take into consideration in reducing the sum payable to him only part of any tax rebated during the first few weeks when a man may be on strike? This has not been made clear, and it would be
  794
  interesting to know if there has been any change. It seems to me an anomaly that part only of the rebated tax is taken into consideration—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. With respect, we are not discussing the parent Act. We are discussing certain increases. The hon. Gentleman may argue that certain groups of people should not have increases under the Regulations. We are talking about increases.
  Mr. Page: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for so courteously bringing me back into line. Speaking directly about the increases, I would propose that the increases payable to those on strike who are eligible for supplementary benefit should be made repayable to the Commission at a later stage.
  Let us suppose that the increase payable above the present rate would be £1 a week, raising the benefit from £7 to £8, to take an example. It is unfair that this man should draw supplementary benefit for his family on account of an action which he himself has taken, and after a period the money should be rebated to the other taxpayers—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that he cannot amend the Regulations. He may oppose the Regulations because he thinks that some people who will get increases under the Regulations should not have them.
  Mr. Page: I was trying to amend the method by which the increases might afterwards be drawn back, but if in discussing that I am out of order, I will leave the question where it is, having posed it, and await an occasion when the whole matter may be more fully discussed.
  10.53 p.m.
  Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: There are two points on which I would be very much obliged if the Minister would be so kind as to clarify my understanding of his statement. He mentioned the question of entitlement in connection with special supplements. I know how dear to his heart the question of entitlement is, and I would like to be sure that I have precisely followed his arguments.
  The figures contained in the Regulations do not give the whole story about two elements in the administration of

  795
  the grant of special supplements, the disregards and the discretionary element in regard to rent. Entitlement is not established by contributions or by citizenship. Entitlement to the increases is established by need. Yet that is not quite the whole story, as there is a differentiation between one person and another, and it is on this that I hope the Minister will precisely explain his thinking.
  In the administration of the disregards, in deciding what people are entitled to receive and whether they are entitled to any increases, if the Ministry officers find that the claimant has personal capital of £2,000, they must deem that person's income to be £7 a week, whether or not that is in fact his or her income. In these days £2,000 might be invested to produce £3 a week, so there is a difference of £4 a week which is taken off the entitlement of people who happen to be in the fortunate position of owning £2,000. In other words, their entitlement is less than that of someone else with the same income but not with the same assets.
  I realise that this is a difficult point, but if the Minister is to hang these increases on entitlement, it is important that he should explain how he sees his way through this maze. But more important, and what we are concerned about, are the unhappy people without enough to live on. Could he say whether the State will permanently administer these disregards to force people to eat up their savings? That is what the table of disregards would appear to mean.
  Could we also be told what is the long term policy of the Minister about rent? At the present time in at least 90 per cent. of cases whatever rent is claimed is given, unless it is a fantastic and unsuitable figure or patently untrue. This could be an ad hoc policy and could be decided while long term decisions about National Insurance benefits are in the pipeline.
  The year 1972 is a long way off, and particularly far away for old people. What is the Government's policy in regard to rent—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman also must seek some other opportunity of discussing the question he seeks to pursue. Under the parent Act there
  796
  are certain disregards. Those disregards are being increased by these Regulations. The hon. Gentleman can oppose or support the increases mentioned in the Regulations but we cannot discuss the parent Act.
  Sir B. Rhys Williams: My error, Mr. Speaker, is probably due to a faulty understanding of the Regulations. The right thing for me to do now is to ask the Minister to clarify my understanding. I have brought my remarks to a conclusion and that is where I had better rest.
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. Michael McGuire: I shall speak for only a few minutes, but I cannot help thinking that this discussion is in some way a repetition of our discussions in Committee on the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill. When I look around. apart from the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page), I see those same faces.
  I wish to clarify the matter of publicity. Do I gather that there be widespread publicity about these new supplementary increases? Although the problem is not always realised by the public, the Government will appear not to be giving to the person receiving supplementary benefit the full amount of the promised increase in National Insurance benefits. This is because people on supplementary benefit were given an interim increase last October because of their need. This creates a big problem for Members of Parliament. We will now be besieged by constituents writing to tell us that they have not received the full amount of benefit which they thought they were entitled to receive. I hope the publicity will get across to the people concerned and that it will be sustained. Perhaps not everybody will understand it but it will certainly help Members of Parliament.
  The other point on which I would like clarification concerns the rent allowance. I know of one or two cases where, when the people administering the supplementary benefit come to calculate the allowance for rent, they appear to discriminate against a man who is a tenant of the Coal Board. Only the other day, I advised such a man to pursue this point. He was told, "We know that you are a tenant of the National Coal Board and that its representative is not coming round

  797
  for the rent." As he is still on the Coal Board's books, the rent is deducted from his wage packet. In other words, it is assumed that when he goes back to work, the Coal Board will deduct the arrears of rent. If he does not receive the same consideration as the private tenant or the tenant of a corporation house, he will be that much worse off—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. With respect, we cannot discuss whether a rent allowance should be included or not included for tenants of the Coal Board. We are increasing, inside a pattern which we cannot discuss on this Order, certain allowances. The hon. Gentleman must address himself to the increases.
  Mr. McGuire: I appreciate that. I am trying to understand the existing law. I am not asking for any Amendment, with respect. I am saying that a person's rent is taken into consideration in what is paid by way of a rent allowance. It seems that the allowance is administered differently in the case of a person who is a Coal Board tenant. I do not think that that is what the Act lays down, and I want it on record that I think that my opinion of how it should be worked is correct. Whether a person is a Coal Board tenant, a tenant of a private landlord or a corporation tenant, a rent allowance should be made on the same basis for all.
  Whatever our lamentations about the inadequacies of the supplementary benefit, in a civilised society we want to pay to less well-off members of it a sum which will enable them to enjoy some of the benefits of our good society. I will end on this note, Mr. Speaker. As you well know, I am noted for my short, sharp, succinct speeches, to which you yourself in the past have paid tribute. We often hear "posh" French and Latin sayings in this House, most of which are above me. Just for a change, I do not see why we should not have a Lancashire miner's saying:
  "Solomon was wise and Samson was strong, but neither of 'em cud pay beawt brass."
  I hope that we shall get the brass soon, and that we can pay the increased benefits and later on the much better benefits which we all desire to see.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. Tim Fortescue: First, I should like to thank the
  798
  Minister, on behalf of this side of the House, for his careful and painstaking explanation of these Regulations. I am delighted to hear that a full explanation will be given to all claimants for supplementary benefits. If they are as confused about the Regulations as many hon. Members of this House, I fear that they will not understand them at all. I hope that the pamphlets to be sent out will be carefully drafted, because this is now a most complicated situation, as I shall endeavour to explain.
  I should also like to echo the thanks and appreciation which the Minister extended to the staff of his Ministry throughout the country. I have some first-hand experience of the way that these men and women work, and I have always been happy to pay tribute to them, not only for their efficiency, which to me is remarkable, but also for the extremely compassionate approach which they take to many difficult problems which come before them.
  We do not intend to oppose these Regulations, which simply demonstrate once more the annual necessity of increasing the normal requirement for subsistence living.
  In 1967 and 1968—the only two complete years since the passing of the Ministry of Social Security Act, 1966—there were similar increases, though the Minister has managed to tell us that last year the increase was in fulfilment of the Prime Minister's pledge after devaluation that the most vulnerable members of the community would be protected. In the light of that, it is a strange coincidence that the amount of increase is the same in 1967 as in 1968 and as it will be in 1969. Therefore, I feel that this dragging in of the Prime Minister's pledge was a little extravagant. It seems that, devaluation or no devaluation, the rate of increase for the normal requirement for a single household is 5s. per week per year, the only difference, since the passing of the Act, being the Is. increase in the long term addition which happened last year.
  I do not want to make a party political point. I use these figures simply to point up the problem that any Government face of ensuring that pensioners and others on low incomes keep up their standards of living in the face of rising prices. Suffice to say, the increases in statutory normal requirements under the Government since

  799
  1966 have been barely enough to enable the pensioners to hold their own.
  A recent investigation, as the Minister will know, has shown that the cost of living for pensioners increases faster than the cost of living for non-pensioners. I have a cutting from The Times of 26th June which shows that against the Index of Retail Prices of 128·1 for ordinary households, those with one pensioner were 129·4 and those with two pensioners were 129·6 when January 1962 figures represent 100. So pensioners need special attention from this House, and I am glad to pay tribute to the Government that in these Regulations they are getting it.
  The Regulations introduce a flat-rate increase into the normal requirement against which the means tested, Exchequer financed, non-contributory, non-earnings-related supplementary pensions and allowances are calculated. This inflation-proofing increase is almost entirely non-controversial, though some hon. Members opposite argued on a previous occasion that it should have been 10s. rather than 5s., because there will be a 10s. a week increase in the retirement pension. The Minister has already argued that, because the normal requirement was increased by 5s. last year, it need only be increased by another 5s. this year to keep in line with the 10s. increase in the retirement pension. But both these arguments are entirely irrelevant, because they ignore the fact that it is the normal requirement under these Regulations which controls the incomes of those most in need, and the amount of the retirement pension is, by a long chalk, less important.
  Let me briefly illustrate what I mean. If these Regulations are passed this evening in this House—as I hope they will be—and also in the other place, and if, by some mischance, the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill, now in Committee, were not passed, the only pensioners who would be worse off than if both were passed would be those with a private income over and above their State pension big enough to pay their rent and rates in full and still exceed by about 6s. a week the total of the long term addition of 10s. a week and of the disregards of Possibly £3 a week. What matters to the worse off people is these Regulations; not what we are doing in Committee. For those with no income
  800
  other than their retirement pension, these Regulations will mean an extra 5s. a week, and the subsequent passage of the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill will make no difference whatsoever. Any objection to the proposals in these Regulations should not be in relation to the retirement pension at all, but should be on their adequacy as such.
  These proposals are, or in my opinion they should be, non-controversial, and yet the supplementary pensions which they seek to increase are based on all the principles which the Secretary of State rejects with such scorn in his other proposals. They are means-tested, non-contributory, non-earnings-related, and wholly Exchequer-financed.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House can be forgiven if they find themselves in a state of confusion about the Secretary of State's intentions. After a very long gestation period, the right hon. Gentleman was delivered last January of a White Paper which purported to chart the course of national superannuation until 1972 at least, but, because he has not yet been able to convince the life offices that he is on the right lines, we shall see no legislation on it in this Session. Nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman makes it clear in the White Paper that for the long-term he favours earnings-related contributions and benefits with pensions—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must link his remarks to the Regulations. We are not discussing the whole of social insurance.
  Mr. Fortescue: If you will bear with me, Mr. Sneaker, I shall link these Regulations directly to the whole theme of my speech. The right hon. Gentleman wants earnings-related contributions and benefits at an adequate rather than a subsistence level. Last month the right hon. Gentleman introduced the Bill which is in Committee upstairs and which he hopes to have through all its stages this Session. This seeks to balance the books on the basis of earnings-related contributions and a flat rate of benefits, with suggestions in the accompanying White Paper, which has no legislative force, that the additional graduated contributions will "of course" earn extra benefits.
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Fortescue: Finally, we have these Regulations—simple, acceptable, straightforward, non-controversial, debatable in terms the House can understand, with none of the present jargon of the Committee upstairs, no talk of dynamising bricks, or of abatement, or of contracting in or contracting out, of inflation-proofing, of Boyd, or even of Carpenter. We debate these last, and they will be approved first. My perplexity is why consideration cannot be given to the possibility of some of the eminently sensible principles on which these Regulations are based being extended to all pensions.
  I am entirely convinced that the absolute certainty of all Governments since Beveridge that the people of this country are enthusiastically in favour of a contributory pension scheme needs to be challenged. Its only basis is the statement in the Beveridge Report—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It may be true. I know that I am speaking among enthusiasts for social insurance, but if it is challenged it will not be tonight on these Regulations.
  Mr. Fortescue: I accept that entirely, Mr. Speaker, but since 1946 it has been accepted as a fact, and no attempt has been made to verify it. It would be possible to verify it, but the Government have not done so, and I shall pursue the matter no further.
  Our confusion about the Secretary of State's thinking can also be traced to the Government's inability to tell us what they intend the relationship to be between the amount of the retirement pension and that of the normal requirement under these Regulations for supplementary pension purposes. In the four years 1966 to 1969 inclusive, the latter, excluding the long-term addition, has been 1s. above, 4s. above, 1s. above, and this year 4s. below the former respectively. When the long-term addition is included, the normal requirement has been 10s., 5s., 11s., and now 6s. respectively above the retirement pension.
  Is this deliberate policy? Why is this so? Would it not be a much more comprehensible policy to the pensioners themselves if the two figures were kept at the same level, so that pensioners could understand that their retirement pension was intended to cover their normal requirement, less rates and rent? I
  802
  am sure that the Minister and other hon. Members have tried to explain to pensioners why these two figures differ, and if they have had the same experience as I have had, they have failed.
  We must remember that the normal requirement, which until 1966 was fixed by the National Assistance Board, which is non-political, is now fixed by the Ministry of Social Security Act, 1966, under which these Regulations are made, and which is operated by the Minister—and his worst enemies could not accuse him of being a non-political animal. It would be reassuring if we could know on what basis it is fixed and what policy the Government are following about the relationship between retirement pension and the normal requirement.
  Similarly, it would be most enlightening if we could know—and this information has been asked for many times, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Mr. Worsley)—how the relationship between the normal requirement for the single householder and that for the married householder is calculated. My mathematics tell me that the latter is always 1⅔ times the former. Does this mean that the Government believe that two can live 1⅔ times as cheaply as one, due allowance being made for the fact that a married couple receives only one long-term allowance, and including rent and rates? If so, why? Or does it mean, which is far more probable, that the Ministry has over the years automatically increased the normal requirement for husband and wife by 8s. a week every time they have increased the requirement for the single householder by 5s.?
  It is almost incredible that the relationship between these two needs has remained stable over all these years. I would like to know when this relationship was last examined. Has any consideration been given to the possibility of varying the normal requirement as between the various regions of the country? I appreciate that the administrative problems would be great, and I further understand that the present flat rate means that pensioners may be encouraged to move out of the cities into the country, where their supplementary pension will go further, and this would be desirable. Nevertheless, some pensioners prefer to stay in their own homes and the flat rate must mean, even though it excludes rent and rates, that the pensioner

  803
  living in London is considerably worse off than his contemporary living in the country. A brief statement from the Minister would be appreciated.
  A word now about the long-term support of 10s. a week for which all pensioners are eligible. Its purpose is to pay for small extras so that these pensioners will not have to apply individually for items, such as window-cleaning, heavy laundry, additional coal in the winter and so on. I applaud the humanity of this concept, but I would point out one aspect of it which leaves pensioners with a sense of injustice. Let us imagine two pensioners living next door to each other with identical incomes, both fit and well. One day one of them falls ill and she is told that she must have a special diet for a long time, costing her an extra 5s. a week. She receives no additional allowance for this because it falls within the long term addition. Thus she finds herself less well off and less well off than her neighbour, with whom up to that time she had been in a state of absolute parity.
  It is impossible to explain to such a lady what is the logic and justice behind the Regulations. I submit that there is a strong case for paying a long-term addition, exclusive of any expenses deemed essential on medical advice.
  How much will this increase cost? How many more children will now, officially, be below the poverty level once this level is raised? What about special requirement figures for other kinds of disabled people, the tubercular who used to have a special advantage, handicapped housewives, chronic sick and over 80s? How long will the wage stop be with us? My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow. West (Mr. John Page) was hinting that there should perhaps be a wage stop for wives when their husbands are on strike. and this is a very complicated suggestion, on which the Minister might like to comment.
  What progress is being made in the review of cases of the disabled affected by the wage stop? The Minister will remember that on 19th May he said that this review was taking much longer than he had hoped. He said:
  "I very much regret this has meant it has not been possible to begin the review of disabled persons affected by the wage stop… Instructions to local offices to begin examining individual cases are going out next week."—
  804
  [OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th May, 1969; Vol. 784, c. 7.]
  That was May of this year. and this matter was first raised in 1967. What progress is being made in the eradication of abuses in the claiming of supplementary benefits by the temporary unemployed? That is a subject very dear to my heart. What about a constant attendance allowance for those on supplementary benefit now, and not in 1972, which is when we are promised it? My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington. South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) spoke of the disregards and the fact that when the capital sum which is disregarded for this purpose is calculated for interest purposes it is at an arbitrary rate of interest and does not take into account the actual income from that capital sum which is received. What does the Minister think about that?
  We shall not oppose these Regulations because they are necessary in the long term. I commend to the Minister the suggestion made on 24th July, 1967, Column 65, of his hon. Friend, that "stalwart Tory". the Member for Fife. West (Mr. William Hamilton). He thought it was a pity that important social problems should be dealt with piecemeal and asked whether the then Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Gordon Walker) would
  "consider setting up a new Beveridge-type committee to look at the whole problem comprehensively."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 24th July. 1967; Vol. 751, c. 65.]
  This suggestion has since twice been repeated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), who has wide experience of these matters. Can the Minister give one good reason why these suggestions made by both sides of the House should not be accepted? Surely the social changes since the Beveridge Report warrant a new, non-political objective examination of our entire social security system?
  11.18 p.m.
  Mr. Ennals: With the leave of the House, perhaps I may reply to at least some of the many questions put forward. I would like to thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Fortescue). He does take a close interest in this matter, not only in the House but in the work of the local offices. I thank him

  805
  and commend his good example to other hon. Gentlemen. There is no doubt that the supplementary benefit offices as well as the national insurance offices greatly appreciate an interest taken in their work by hon. Members, and anything done in that way will be much appreciated.
  The hon. Member seeks to direct every debate in which he speaks to the White Paper which foreshadows legislation in the autumn. It is clear that the White Paper has stimulated tremendous interest. I know that the hon. Member is absolutely dying to get to the legislation in the autumn.
  It is for that reason that I answer the last question. If we were now to accept the recommendation that we should establish something like a Royal Commission, it would postpone for perhaps three years legislation which we are to introduce shortly after the summer.
  We have done a great deal of work on this. One of the main intentions in the legislation is to raise the level of pensions so that we will not have such a large number of people dependent upon means-tested supplementary benefit.
  I was glad, Mr. Speaker, that you pulled up the hon. Gentlemen when he started to preach his heresy against the contributory principle. I know that his two hon. Friends sitting on his Front Bench were equally relieved, because they strongly disagree with the philosophy he was about to preach.
  The hon. Member for Garston asked by what principles we determine what should be the scale rate of supplementary benefit in relation to National Insurance. It is an assessment of need, and we make our reassessment as to what should be the increase in the scale rate according to changing need. It would be difficult to have a different scale rate that applied in different parts of the country although the hon. Member will recognise that one of the factors that perhaps changes more than anything else is the level of rents, so since we are not tied to a particular level of rents, this can be dealt with. A high rent in London will be paid just as a lower rent in the provinces is.
  This will enable me to refer to a question by the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire) about rents. The Act lays down that the rent is added to the assess-
  806
  ment provided it is reasonable. This also answers the question of the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams). About 99 per cent. of rents are accepted as being reasonable and are allowed in full.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ince referred to an allegation of discrimination against Coal Board tenants. The reasonableness of a rent is not judged according to who is the landlord but according to whether or not the rent seems to us to be reasonable. If my hon. Friend will give me any details he may have, I will ask the Supplementary Benefit Commission to look into them.
  I was asked when we would be introducing, for example, the constant attendance allowance. The answer is that it will be contained in the legislation that will be coming forward in the autumn.
  The hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) questioned me about the position of strikers. Section 10 of the Ministry of Social Security Act, 1966, disqualifies a person involved in a trade dispute from receiving supplementary benefit for his own requirements. However, this disqualification does not, of course, extend to his dependants, and rightly so. It would be intolerable if, because a man was on strike and was not himself entitled to receive supplementary benefit, his wife and children, who were in no way involved in the dispute, were put in peril.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is not part of the Instrument. The question tonight is only whether the striker or his wife should be entitled to the increase in these Regulations.
  Mr. Ennals: I am obliged for your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I was merely seeking to assist the House by answering a question that had been put to me.
  The question of disregards was raised, and this Instrument does not make any change in that connection. To do so would require an Act of Parliament. In any event, the policy is to change the disregards less frequently than we change the scale rates. It is fair to recognise that people with substantial capital are, naturally, expected to spend some of it, although I agree that it would be difficult to reach a conclusion as to how much of it they should be expected to spend.

  807
  Hon. Members must appreciate that this is a means-tested scheme and that it would be unfair to pay full benefit to a person with substantial capital. But we also accept that it would be wrong not to have a disregard of a certain degree of capital, since people would find themselves in a difficult position if they were expected to exhaust all their capital before being able to come on to supplementary benefit.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ince then asked about publicity. He will be interested to know that there will be an explanatory leaflet available in the various offices of the Department as soon as the Regulations are made. A detailed explanation will be made available to supplementary benefit recipients when the new levels are introduced.
  Mr. Fortescue: Why does the normal level fluctuate in relation to the retirement pension level, sometimes being slightly above and sometimes being slightly below?
  Mr. Ennals: I answered that when I said that the supplementary benefit level is calculated on the basis of need. I am not saying that this consideration does not come into the assessment of the National Insurance level, but from the point of view of supplementary benefits we are concerned with the basic need and, therefore, the movement of prices is inevitably a governing factor in determining the supplementary benefit level.
  As several hon. Members have quoted statistics, they may like some figures to show where we stand. At present about 2,700,000 claimants are receiving supplementary benefit, and the benefits in payment cover the needs of some 4 million people, including more than 700,000 children. Most of these 2,700.000 recipients are over pension age; supplementary pensioners. This leaves about 800,000 people with supplementary allowances, among them 327,000 who are sick or disabled, 66,000 women with widow's benefits, 168,000 women with dependent children and 223,000 unemployed.
  There are other smaller groups, notably about 14,000 looking after sick or aged relatives. This is a very substantial number of people receiving benefit from the Supplementary Benefit Commission.
  808
  I am glad that the hon. Member welcomed the Regulations. As he said, they are non-contentious. They will bring relief to a very large number and I am glad that the House is not to divide on this Motion.
  Lord Balniel: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, may I repeat the question asked by my hon. Friend? This is of great importance in assessing the implications of the Regulations in the present financial situation. What is likely to be the cost each year?
  Mr. Ennals: The cost of the increases outlined in the Regulations would he an additional £42 million in the first full year, 1970–71.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved.
  That the Supplementary Benefit (Determinaction of Requirements) Regulations 1969. a draft of which was laid before this House on 17th June, be approved.

  EMPLOYER'S LIABILITY (DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT) BILL
  Lords Amendment considered.
Clause 1

  EXTENSION OF EMPLOYER'S LIABILITY FOR DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT
  Lords Amendment: In page 2, line 5, at end insert—
  "' equipment' includes any plant and machinery, vehicle, aircraft and clothing; "
  11.28 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh D. Brown: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
  I thank Lord Morris for his work on this Bill in another place. It was extremely helpful. The absence of many hon. Members from this debate is not remarkable for I should have been surprised if more had been present at this time on a Thursday night? This applies to supporters and kindly critics of the Bill alike. I make special reference to the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland), who I should perhaps not say is leading for the Opposition on a Private Member's Bill—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Member please come to the Amendment.
  Mr. Brown: This Amendment was not specifically discussed in Committee, but the general question about equipment was, and on Report an Amendment in almost similar terms was moved by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) on behalf of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot). It was opposed by me as sponsor and by the Solicitor-General, but it was agreed that this is a difficult matter. It was a question of fine balance whether the Bill should be left as it was or that the Amendment should be accepted. I made clear that we were prepared to look at the matter again to see if we could find a suitable compromise.
  That assurance was repeated in another place on Second Reading and, as a result of consultations, the Amendment we are discussing was moved and accepted in another place. I was in the hands of the Philistines, or rather the learned fraternity in this House and outside. I do not think this is a major matter of principle, but I was guided on whether the word "equipment" should be defined to include the words in the Amendment, and on balance I think it wise to accept the Amendment. It adds to the definition and does not affect the principle.
  Although the Bill has had a stormy passage that has not been because of the issues in the Bill itself but because of those concerning other Bills before the House. Now we have reached agreement on the definition of equipment, and on an alteration along the lines suggested, we should proceed to accept the Amendment and give this useful Bill a place on the Statute Book.
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: I am glad that the sponsors have seen fit to accept this Amendment. In the absence of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot), I moved an Amendment on similar lines on Report. I argued the case then at some length and I do not intend to do so tonight.
  The objection was that if the Amendment were made it would be restrictive. I did not accept that. I am glad to note that the promise that it might be considered was carried out. If the word
  810
  "equipment" was not defined difficulties might arise, and, as I said on Report, there might be ingenuous arguments by lawyers which might cause some difficulties. In these circumstances, I am glad that the Amendment has been accepted and I think it will help to make the Bill effective.
  Mr. Niall MacDermot: I seek to discharge a multiple debt of gratitude as the person who was the instigator of this Amendment. I should like to thank my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) who moved the Amendment on Report as I could not be here. He moved it in such cogent and persuasive terms that we now see the Amendment, in a revised form being accepted.
  I should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown), whose Bill this is, for having paid such careful attention to the arguments and eventually supporting them. I congratulate him on having brought this Bill to a successful conclusion. I also thank my noble Friends in another place who pressed the matter. Last but not least, I express my thanks to the Solicitor-General and the Government for having carried out their pledge to look into the matter carefully and finally adopting the proposal, with the assistance of those over-worked and over-abused gentlemen, the Parliamentary draftsmen, who reproduced this Amendment in a very much better form than it was originally.
  As to the substance of the Amendment this is a remarkable Bill in that it places an absolute liability upon the employer who is deemed to be negligent in circumstances where in fact he may not be negligent at all. And that being the character of the Bill, it struck me that the courts, when interpreting it, might be likely to place a restrictive interpretation upon it. It was for that reason it seemed to me we should make our intention perfectly plain and ensure a definition of the word "equipment" which would extend to matters which I think we should all like to see it extended to but which, without the definition, might be excluded by judicial decision.
  This Bill may establish a useful precedent. I know that the Department is

  811
  considering a general review of the Factories Acts and it seems that the precedent we are establishing in this Bill, and which we are reinforcing by this Amendment, is one that could usefully be borne in mind when we consider the wider legislation.
  I do not believe we are ever going to see satisfactorily designed safe machinery unless statutory duties are placed upon the manufacturer as well as upon employers and occupiers of factories.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Arthur Irvine): I think it right that I should say a word, since, as has been said, at an earlier stage of our consideration of the point my inclination was to advise against acceptance of the proposal incorporated in the Amendment now before us. The Government are satisfied now that the better course is to accent the Amendment in these terms.
  It has been realised that if the word "equipment" were left undefined, the precise relationship between this Bill and the Occupier's Liability Act, 1957, would not be made fully clear. It is essential for the Bill to cover vehicles. These now form such a significant proportion of the equipment which is issued to industrial workers that it would be wrong for them not to be covered. If equipment is not expressly defined as including vehicles, it would be possible, perhaps, to argue that, as vehicles are expressly covered by the 1957 Act, they are not intended to be covered by the Bill. The right course, therefore, I am satisfied, is to define equipment as including vehicles.
  If those arguments are accepted. it becomes necessary, I readily acknowledge, to consider the question of vessels and aircraft. If they were not defined as being included in equipment, they would probably be held to be excluded from the Bill.
  The other main reason why it has been decided that "equipment" should be defined is that the sponsors and the Government alike have been impressed by the weight of opinion that a definition is necessary and by the representations made in this connection by my hon. and learned Friends the Members for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) and for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot).
  812
  Perhaps, in a sentence, I may be permitted to stretch the bounds of order by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown) upon what is shortly to become the successful fruition of a valuable legislative enterprise on his part.
  Question put and agreed to.

  MULTI-ROLE COMBAT AIRCRAFT (COST)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ernest G. Perry.]
  11.38 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: The title of this debate is, "The multi-rôle combat aircraft and its cost", but it might equally well have been, "That's where the money goes". I shall dwell on the money side of it tonight.
  We recently witnessed in Parliament a scene which aroused little comment yet which struck me as highly incongruous. On 14th May, the Chancellor had spoken of the country's serious financial position. Minutes later, he was followed by the Secretary of State for Defence, who announced the signing of an agreement with West Germany and Italy to cooperate in proceeding with the building of 1,000 multi-rôle combat aircraft. Of these, he said, about one-third would be bought by the British Government. No mention was made in the Chamber of the cost, but, apparently, at a briefing outside—I shall say something about that—the Minister said that we would purchase 350 of these aircraft, at an estimated cost of £1½ million each, and in addition we would pay £150 million as the British share of the cost of developing the aircraft before it went into production. That brings the bill to the little sum of £675 million.
  That figure has been described by one expert observer as "incredibly low". Since most recent estimates in this field have been exceeded several times over, the suggestion in the Economist that the eventual cost will be about £1,500 million for Britain alone for this one aircraft may not be wildly out. Indeed, the escalation of cost for certain 'planes and missiles has been so alarming that several of them have quite rightly had to be cancelled, involving heavy cancellation

  813
  charges, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) has reminded me.
  This suggests that there should be extreme caution before the Government take on this new commitment.
  Two of the six Governments originally intending to collaborate have already dropped out, and a third may do so shortly. I suggest that our own Government should follow suit, and, as production will not start for six years, they can still take such a decision before it is too late.
  There were cheers in the Commons when the announcement was made—though certainly not from all quarters as one hon. Gentleman opposite maintained. I think that it is lunacy. Even odder is the fact that it was those who have been demanding cuts in Government spending who were most enthusiastic for this huge new financial commitment. The extra cost of teeth and spectacles would be more than covered by going without a couple of these new 'planes. If we made the great so-called "sacrifice" of forgoing all of them, most of our housing, pensions, education, and health service difficulties would be greatly eased. Gallup polls, the Labour Party conference decision, and, not least, common sense, all indicate which sphere of Government spending should be given priority.
  I wish to keep my remarks to 10 minutes at the most in the hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks) a member of the Public Accounts Committee, who has applied his mind closely to this matter, will catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. He would show that Britain will have to pay an unfairly high proportion of the research and development cost.
  But there is one serious aspect of the matter to which I wish to draw attention. When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made his statement on the M.R.C.A. on 14th May in the Chamber he made no mention of the cost. Yet on 15th May there were detailed reports, certainly in The Times, the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph, and perhaps other papers, quoting the Minister as follows. Under the headline,
  "Britain in a new £150m. swing wing project"
  814
  Arthur Reed wrote in The Times,
  "Britain is to spend £150m. to produce a new military aircraft in conjunction with West Germany, Italy and possibly the Netherlands, Mr. Healey, Secretary of State for Defence, announced yesterday. The cost of each machine is put at £1.5m."
  In the Daily Telegraph, Air Commodore E. M. Donaldson, Air Correspondent, wrote:
  "By sharing the cost with other nations and jointly producing the 'plane, Mr. Healey said, it guaranteed Britain a 'home' market of more than 1,000 'planes as a start at less than £1,500,000 each because of the numbers involved.…Research and development will amount to about £400 million, of which Britain will pay about £150 million."
  The Guardian stated:
  "…at a price of perhaps £1.5 million each."
  Now these reputable defence correspondents did not think up a figure out of the air. They were clearly given it in a briefing by the Secretary of State himself. They said so. They quoted him. So, on 25th June, I put down a Question to my right hon. Friend asking him to estimate the approximate cost. My hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for Equipment replied:
  "…It is not the normal practice to give cost estimates of this nature."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June, 1969; Vol. 785, c. 1479.]
  The same answer has been given to similar Questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington and my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell).
  In other words, we have the Secretary of State deliberately concealing from the House, where it would have been questioned, the vast cost of the project. Then he gives it in a briefing session outside the Chamber to the defence correspondents. Lastly, when asked in Parliament to give an estimate, he refuses to do so I suggest that this is a very serious abuse of Parliamentary practice and democracy. My right hon. Friend is going behind the backs of Members of Parliament when he refuses to tell them the estimate but tells it to others. The House has been deceived. He is guilty of constitutional impropriety which deserves heavy censure.
  11.46 p.m.
  Mr. Edwin Brooks: My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) is to be congratulated on having raised this most important

  815
  and highly expensive matter. Although the hour is late, I should like to add some of my own concern and reservations about the project. I do not normally wish to rely heavily on quotations but if my case is to be made effectively I should consecutively read a few short extracts from journals and newspapers which have appeared recently in connection with the project.
  In Interavia at the end of 1968 it was stated:
  "The unofficial estimate of the number of aircraft required by each country, as agreed at the Bonn meeting on July 17, is as follows: Federal Germany 500, U.K. about 250, Italy 175 to 200 and Holland up to 100."
  On 15th May, the well informed air correspondent of the Daily Telegraph wrote, on the basis of what clearly seems to have been a briefing from those in authority in the Ministry:
  "More than 1,000 planes will be built—about 400 for the R.A.F., 800 for the German Air Force and about 150 for Italy and Holland, if she joins. Many more will be built for export."
  It was on the basis of these interesting figures that I asked my right hon. Friend on 14th May:
  " As the Germans will require roughly twice as many of these planes as we will, how will this affect the allocation of research and developments costs?"
  He replied:
  "The German requirement is about 50 per cent. greater than ours, not twice as great."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1969: Vol 783, c. 1416.]
  Presumably, therefore, the figures in the Daily Telegraph of 800 and 400 respectively were wildly inaccurate.
  I wrote to my right hon. Friend and received a reply on 29th May in which he sought to allay my anxieties, but he went on in the letter:
  "…of course, no country is committing itself at this stage to the precise number of aircraft which it will eventually take from the programme. There is no point therefore in trying to reconcile the figures I gave the House and the speculations of aviation journalists, however well informed."
  That is a fair point but, on the following day, a number of well-informed aviation correspondents came back from the Paris Air Show with figures wildly different not only from those I have quoted but from each other, and these appeared in the Press on 31st May. There is, therefore,
  816
  some cause for alarm, because the public clearly are not being given anything like a precise picture of what is entailed. For example, in the Daily Mail of 31st May it was reported:
  "Germany is said to be prepared to take 400 of the 'planes, the R.A.F. 385, Italy 200, and Holland, if it joins in, 100."
  The Daily Sketch on the same day, quoting Mr. Alan Greenwood of B.A.C., who is Panavia's chairman, said that he revealed at the Paris Air Show:
  "…that Britain will buy 380 two-seater M.R.C.A.s, Germany 600 single-seaters, Italy 200 and Holland 100."
  It is alarming that aviation correspondents who have been to a responsible, reputable air show, the Paris Air Show, should supply figures like this. If the figures are out of thin air, the correspondent is acting irresponsibly. If the figures came from a briefing, the correspondent was either deaf or different figures were given.
  The Guardian of 31st May said this:
  "The total development bill is expected to be something like £380 million, of which Britain will contribute £150 million and Germany a little less than £200 million."
  That is not much more than the total British figure on research and development. The Guardian article continues:
  "The financial shares are in keeping with the numbers of aircraft needed by the respective air forces: Germany about 500. Britain perhaps 300, Italy 200, and Holland 100."
  I think that the "perhaps" is well advised. Wildly different figures have been given, certainly of the ratio of 'planes needed by Britain to those needed by Germany.
  My purpose is not just to quote a series of newspaper figures, but to show that a real problem faces the House in deciding what is the fair proportion of research and development costs which this country should incur in this project in relation to our European partners. If it is true, as the Guardian says, that Germany is allocating little more than we are intending to allocate, there is something wildly wrong about this deal.
  We have little or no knowledge of what levy on sales is to be imposed for exports to third parties, from which there might be recoupment of some of the expense of the initial investment. We have no idea how the levy is to be broken down among the countries.

  817
  Although this project is in the early stages of development, it has already reached a stage of reasonable technological specification. We have not had anything like adequate financial clarification, and, if the House is asked to support a project in which Germany will have less incentive to financial economy because of her interest in building up an aviation industry than would normally be the case, it is extremely important that my hon. Friend, tonight if possible, should give us figures far more precise and authoritative than those which have been circulating in recent months.
  11.54 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence for Equipment (Mr. John Morris): My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) has used very strong words about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. If the note I took is correct, he accused him of deliberately concealing from the House information which the House should have. I am sure that my hon. Friend knows my right hon. Friend well enough—my hon. Friend has been in the House longer than I have—to know that if anyone has opened up the question of defence and provided as much information for the House as is possible and practicable on every occasion for many a long year, it is my right hon. Friend.
  I am familiar with the opposition of my hon. Friend to defence expenditure. His is the pacifist case; he is opposed to all defence expenditure, and in that sense I can see why he is objecting to this most important aircraft which we are planning. If this is the object of putting down this subject for debate—and I take no exception, I welcome it—I can assure him that I too am much concerned to see that we get value for money from this project in our defence equipment programme.
  First, I think it would be helpful if I were to give a short resume of the background to the development of this project up to the present time. As was explained to the House by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, on 14th May, feasibility studies carried out by four European countries—West Germany, Italy, Holland and the United Kingdom—over the past year showed that their national requirements for a military aircraft for service in the later
  818
  1970's could be harmonised and met in a multi-rôle aircraft built to a substantially common design. It was as a result of those feasibility studies that representatives of West Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom signed, on 14th May, the Memoranda of Understanding, under which they have embarked on the project definition phase of the project.
  I regret that the Dutch Government, who participated in the feasibility studies, have confirmed that they do not wish to sign the Memoranda. They have, however, put forward alternative proposals on the basis of which they hope to remain in the consortium. These proposals are now being considered by ourselves and the other participating countries.
  The essence of the M.R.C.A. project is that it is a collaborative venture which meets the N.A.T.O. requirements of all the participating countries. So far as the Royal Air Force is concerned, the British variant of the aircraft emerging from the feasibility studies should be suitable to equip R.A.F. squadrons at first in the strike-reconnaissance rôle, and later in the fighter rôle. As the House will know, we already have the Jaguar and the Harrier as close support aircraft for the 'seventies, and we also have the Phantom as a fighter. What we are now looking for is an aircraft capable of reaching targets beyond the immediate battle area in all weathers—the job now done by the Canberra and over the next few years by the Buccaneer. This is the task for which we are looking to the M.R.C.A.
  So far as numbers are concerned, which was a matter referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks), the present requirements of the participating countries are likely to amount to something over 1,000 aircraft, of which the R.A.F. plans to take about one-third. No country is, of course, ordering aircraft at this stage. All that has been done is that, for the purposes of deciding how work is to be shared, the countries concerned have made an estimate of the number of aircraft they expect to need when the M.R.C.A. goes into service in seven or eight years' time. I cannot be responsible for all the conflicting reports referred to by my hon. Friend, but I assure him that it is on this basis, at this very early stage, that we have approached the problem.

  819
  I should now like to say a little about the way in which this project is to be controlled and the phases it is planned to go through. This relates to the anxieties about costs which concerned my hon. Friend.
  As my hon. Friend knows, the Panavia Company has been formed by the aircraft industries of the participating countries to develop and produce the aircraft. An international management organisation has also been set up to manage, direct and keep under review all aspects of the project, with special emphasis on financial matters. This organisation consists of a small policy group, a board of directors and an international management office. The policy group, comprised of one senior official from each participating country, is responsible for major decisions of policy and advising on the commitment at the end of each phase of the programme. The board of directors, again comprised of representatives from each country, is responsible for the management of the programme and direction of the international management office permanently established for the executive management of the project.
  This programme itself has been split into four main phases. The conceptual phase has been concluded; the project definition phase is now in progress; then will come the main development phase, which will be divided in turn into three sub-phases; and finally a production phase, which will, to a certain extent, overlap development.
  The importance of this organisation and phasing is that the project will be approached and evaluated stage by stage; progress will be carefully reviewed at each stage before further financial commitment is made to the next stage.
  This now leads me to the point about which my hon. Friend has expressed particular concern—that of the costs of this project. My hon. Friend is quite right when he says that a project of this size will cost a substantial sum. But this is hardly surprising when what is involved is the re-equipment of some two-thirds of the R.A.F.'s combat front line; and we need to remember that all the expenditure, including that on research and development, will be spread over a period
  820
  of about 14 years. However, as I explained in answering a Question from my hon. Friend on 25th June, it is not normal practice to give cost estimates of this nature. In any case, it would be wholly misleading to quote detailed figures at this stage of the project when we are only at the beginning of the project definition phase. One of the purposes of this phase is, of course, to produce firmer cost data as a result of which the financial and budgetary implications of the whole project can be fully assessed. We have, of course, made our own provisional estimates of the total costs of the project. These lead us to believe that the M.R.C.A. should provide much better value for money than any possible alternative.
  I think that I can help my hon. Friend to this extent by assuring him that there is no basis for the suggestion that, after my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made his statement in the House on 14th May, an estimate was given by the Ministry of Defence on the following day of £675 million as the British share of the cost of the project.
  I would deal finally with the anxieties which my hon. Friend has expressed about the dangers of the costs of this project getting out of control. I can assure my hon. Friend that I am as concerned as anyone to ensure that strict control is exercised; but I would be the last person to attempt to minimise the difficulties in achieving that control. It is because we are fully seized of these difficulties that, as I have already explained this evening, the project is divided into a number of phases, with a searching review of the whole programme at the end of each phase. Our present financial commitment is only to the current phase, that of project definition, in which our share is some £4 million. We have learned a great deal from past experience in the control of elaborate military projects and, in the kind of project with which we are dealing this evening, a vast amount of expertise and judgment has been built up both at B.A.C. and in the Ministry of Technology. It is true to say that no other aircraft project has been so carefully appraised at such an early stage.
  I conclude by assuring my hon. Friend that we and our consortium partners are very conscious that this venture presents

  821
  a unique opportunity for Europe to collaborate on a project of major military and technological significance. This will be of great value to N.A.T.O. and can also help to establish a European aircraft industry on a truly competitive scale. We are all determined to ensure that this project will be a success, and I am confident that all concerned will be getting extremely good value for money.
  Mr. Frank Allaun rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon Gentleman has exhausted his right to speak, but he can intervene before the Minister sits down.
  Mr. Allaun: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before my hon. Friend sits down—he has denied that the Minister gave these figures to the Press next day. But three reputable papers quoted the right hon. Gentleman as saying so. I cannot understand his explanation.
  Mr. Morris: In the course of his comments on this matter, my hon. Friend has given a number of figures. The figure that he gave when he asked me a Question on the last occasion on which I was replying was £675 million. That is the figure of which he had given me notice.
  822
  I can find no basis for it in the Ministry of Defence. As I said earlier, from my inquiries it appears that this figure of £675 million was not given by us.
  Mr. F. V. Corfield: Is the Minister yet in a position to give the House any information about the choice of engine? I understand that negotiations have reached a fairly critical stage in the last few days, and the House would be interested if he could give us any fresh information.
  Mr. Morris rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman can speak again only with the leave of the House, which I suspect may be granted.
  Mr. Morris: With the leave of the House, I anticipated that this Question would be asked. I regret that I am not in a position to answer it. It may take a little time. It may be two or three months before we can give an answer to this very important question.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at five minutes past Twelve o'clock.

POST OFFICE
  Insured Packages (Sealing Requirements)
  Insured Packages (Sealing Requirements)
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  Post Office Savings and Giro Accounts(Transfers)
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  Post Office Pensions Section (Transfer)
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  Post Office Staff Handbook(Rule K6)
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WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
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TELEPHONE SERVICE
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EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTIVITY
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Drama Students
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  China (Captain Peter M. Will)
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  Skylark and Black Arrow Projects (Evaluation)
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SOCIAL SERVICES
  National Insurance Contributions (Arrears)
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MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
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  Nuclear N.A.T.O. Contribution (V-Bomber Force)
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BOARD OF TRADE
  French Visitors (Purchases)
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  Roads (Expenditure)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Blackburn.

STUDENT MISBEHAVIOUR AND GRANTS WITHDRAWAL
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their policy regarding grants withdrawn by local authorities from students in higher education on grounds of misbehaviour in their college or university.]
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, where the academic authorities exclude a student from a course, either temporarily or permanently, local education authorities must suspend or terminate the award as appropriate. In all other cases the local education authorities must consult the academic authorities before taking any action.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reassuring reply, may I ask whether she is aware that at least one authority requires those who receive grants to sign an undertaking to repay those grants, if required to do so, on,
"any failure to comply with the rules of the college or university"
There is no reference to the college or university having taken any steps.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I am aware of that. I will pass that information on to my right honourable friend, although I am not quite sure that it deals precisely with the point at issue. This is surely an undertaking given before students go to the university, whereas this rule refers to the student who has in fact been disciplined.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, is it not a bad thing that people should have to undertake to repay these grants merely if they break a rule,
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even if the university or the college has not taken any action?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, as the noble Lord will appreciate, any comment I make personally would be quite useless. This must be a comment made on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, which I am not empowered to make.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a tremendous amount of sympathy abroad in the country for the local education authorities to stop these grants where students grossly misbehave? It is not just a question of breaking a rule, or anything of that description. In view of the scenes that have been taking place, is not my noble friend aware that there is a strong feeling about that matter in the country? Probably it would be right for the education authorities to stop the grants of some of these people until they behave as reasonable citizens.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I am of course aware of the feeling in this connection. I would again say that it is not quite on the same point as that raised in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that under the Universities and Other Awards Regulations of 1965, the academic authorities are the sole arbiters of the academic misbehaviour or good behaviour of students, and that the local authorities are under an obligation under these Regulations to disallow any grants that are made to a student during the time of his or her suspension?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, as I understand it from the Regulations, that is so.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, is not the contrary also so: that if the academic authorities are the sole arbiters, the local education authorities should not take action unless requested to do so by a university authority?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, if I may refer the noble Lord to the last part of the reply to the original Question, I said:
"In all other cases the local education authorities must consult the academic authorities before taking any action".

POST OFFICES AND CLASSIFIED DIRECTORIES
3.10 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why directory inquiries and main post offices are not invariably equipped with the classified directory outside their immediate area.]
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, directory inquiries for particular numbers can normally be answered without reference to the classified directories for other areas. Provided space is available, the directories most frequently in demand are held at main post offices.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Is he aware that the Post Office have increased their contract by 300 per cent. in the past three years, and that they now spend £1 million in advertising classified directories? Is it not possible for people to find out the numbers outside their own area?
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, yes, it is quite possible. The majority of the inquiries for numbers can be found from directory inquiries, and that is the correct procedure. Not all post offices yet possess these classified directories, but they will have them by the end of the year.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is quite possible and plausible for people to want numbers outside their own area? As the Post Office is spending this enormous amount of money, is it not better to make the classified directory system as effective and efficient as possible?
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I have already answered that question twice. If you telephone directory inquiries and give the name and roughly the part of the country where the person is living, you can be given almost any number.

ARMS SUPPLIES TO ISRAEL
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will now permit the sale of Chieftain tanks to the State of Israel.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, I would draw the noble Lord's attention to the speech of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in another place on June 17. He explained there the principles on which our arms policy is based and why it is not possible to give details about arms supplies which we may or may not make to other countries. My right honourable friend also made it clear that it is not our policy to apply an embargo to any country; nor is it our intention to see any country in the Middle East at such a disadvantage as to tempt an aggressor.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, arising out of that Answer, may I ask the noble Lord, first, when a decision on this question of tanks—which is urgent—is likely to be reached by Her Majesty's Government; and secondly, how the supply of arms to Libya and Nigeria, and the refusal to supply arms to Israel and South Africa, square up with the principles laid down recently in another place by the Secretary of State for the guidance of Parliament?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, as I say, I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord any detailed information about a decision on this subject, as it is not the practice of Her Majesty's Government to give details of arms supplies that they may or may not make to other countries. So far as the second part of his question is concerned, I would point out that these are all individual cases. He mentioned Libya, Nigeria, South Africa and Greece. All these are different cases. In the case of Greece, for example, there have been no substantial supplies of arms since the present régime came into power. They are all different cases, and as my right honourable friend said, we examine all these cases on their merits. We make

659
decisions in individual cases having regard to the circumstances at the time and our overall policy. It simply is not possible to lump all these together.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, may I ask one more question? In making those decisions, will Her Majesty's Government have some regard to the principles already laid down by the Secretary of State?
LORD CHALFONT: Of course, my Lords. We shall have very close regard to the principles which he laid down.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, is the Minister able to give some indication of the formula, for guidance? Because in the case of South Africa it was indicated clearly by the Government that there was dictation by the United Nations in disregard of our civilian trade. Did I misunderstand the noble Lord when I thought I heard him say that the Government had no embargo on arms in any direction? Is there not an embargo on arms of some classes to South Africa?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, there is a United Nations' resolution on the subject of South Africa to which Her Majesty's Government accede. As we voted for the resolution, we naturally take account of its provisions. The questions of South Africa and Greece are entirely separate matters. The question of arms to Israel, which I may remind your Lordships' House was the subject of the original Question, is far removed from either of them.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether advantage could not be taken of the meeting of representatives of the four Powers on the Middle East to impose an absolute embargo by those Powers on arms to either side in the confrontation in the Middle East?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I may have misunderstood or not properly heard the first part of my noble friend's question, but I am not aware that the four Powers have made any recommendations that are yet public; but certainly we should be very happy to see a multilateral agreement concerned with the supply of arms to this area. I merely make the point that this is not a matter in which we can act unilaterally, or in which we should act unilaterally.

NATIONAL SERVICE
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in their view the time has not come to set up a working party to formulate, before stern need arises, a better National Service scheme than that which, in 1957, was abandoned because it provided too short a period of training and lacked a corps of instructors appropriate to the requirements of this mechanical and scientific age.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, R.A.F. (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, in the view of the Government, the reintroduction of National Service in any form would give rise to problems which rule it out as a method of meeting either our strategic commitments or our manpower requirements. In this the position is no different from that obtaining in 1957, when the Government's predecessors were led to abandon it.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether he will not agree that there is an opportunity now, as things are in the world, calmly to redress the mistakes of the 1957 Act which caused dissatisfaction, as we know, and also concerned something which was erected under the stress of war? Is there not now a real opportunity to get the matter in the pigeonhole, as one might say, so that it may be taken out of the pigeon-hole when need arises?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this is one aspect of defence on which both the major Parties are in agreement. One of the facts of life is that the cost of training a modern soldier, airman or sailor is so expensive that we simply cannot afford to tie up our limited skilled manpower in training men from whom we can get only a limited amount of service. We are all hopeful that the new pay structure which is about to be introduced will produce a sufficient flow of volunteers to staff and

661
man our military forces to the necessary degree.
VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEY: My Lords, in the event of the failure of recruiting, does that mean that there is still no plan of any sort for a selective form of National Service?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as the noble Viscount knows perhaps better than most, there are quite substantial forces in this country at the moment; and when the previous Administration reached this decision alternative plans must of course have been considered. But the hard fact is that we are hopeful that the new pay structure will enable us to bring in sufficient volunteers to man our all-Regular Armed Forces.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while welcoming my noble friend's very definite statement against the reintroduction of any compulsory National Service, may I ask whether he is aware that the younger generation who would form these recruits are now increasingly rejecting the method of war altogether and that this is illustrated by the 60,000 who in America have refused to serve in Vietnam? If the Government—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Speech!
LORD BROCKWAY: Should not the Government adjust their defence policies to meet the new climate of opinion among the new generation in this country?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I see no evidence that the younger generation is less prepared to defend the liberties of this country than previously.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that there is another side, apart from warfare, to national training, and that is the training of character of the young and the learning of discipline? Would he not also agree, in view of what he said about the expense, that that expense would be no greater than the expense of supporting a number of young vandals who destroy trains, and so on.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, that is quite another question.

FUTURE BUSINESS: DIVORCE REFORM BILL
3.19 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I should like to raise a point concerning the business of the House, particularly with relation to the Divorce Law Reform Bill. Last Monday a number of your Lordships voted against the Bill and a number voted for the Bill, but I believe that far the greater number of those who voted for the Second Reading of the Bill did so in the hope and expectation that your Lordships' House would be given a full opportunity to discuss this vitally important Bill extremely thoroughly.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor laid considerable emphasis on the preparation that the Bill had had and on the very thorough treatment it received in the House of Commons. I would ask whether we are to treat it less thoroughly. I feel that although the first day which has been set down for the discussion of the Bill at the Committee stage is entirely appropriate, it would not be thought right by all of us to have such an important Bill, albeit a Private Member's Bill, discussed on a Friday when, generally speaking, it is not convenient for most Members of your Lordships' House to be present.
I should have thought that, of all the Private Members' Bills that we have dealt with in recent years, this is, par excellence, one on which all the voting should be as fully representative as it is possible for it to be. At the moment, I have an open mind about the contents of this Bill and how I shall vote. But I am quite convinced that if we reach the Third Reading of the Bill with any feeling that it has been botched or hurried or rushed, I shall certainly vote against it.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, has said? I appreciate his feelings in this matter and I take note of what he said; but I am sure he will realise that I had to take note of what a good many other people have said. One of the difficulties in this and other matters is that the opinion of your Lordships, when it comes to selecting a particular day for a particular Bill, is not unanimous. It is most difficult to find a day which satisfies all noble Lords in all

663
parts of the House. I recognise the importance of this measure and I certainly share his hope that full consideration will be given to it.
It has been found that we shall have time on Thursday of next week, although I must say to the noble Lord that it has been represented to me that Thursday is not the best day, because noble Lords wish to be going off on Thursday evening; Friday is not the best day, and Monday was represented to me most strongly as being quite unsuitable. I really find it difficult in looking for a day which will command universal approval. But, having heard what the noble Lord said, I take his point, and I assure him that in consultation we will find the most useful time for a discussion of this important Bill.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, would the noble Lord perhaps take it a little more seriously than that? He has said that every day is unsuitable, and what my noble friend was saying is that Friday is unsuitable. This is a part-time House and an unpaid House, and as a general rule it does not sit on Fridays. There are large numbers of noble Lords who do other jobs and who make their plans well ahead and do not get to the House on Fridays. I realise quite well that this is technically a Private Member's Bill, but it is a Private Member's Bill of the gravest importance. It is something which affects a very large number of people in this country and upon which there are large numbers of your Lordships who wish to express an opinion. So I appeal to the noble Lord the Leader of the House to see this point about Fridays. It is not a day on which we normally sit, and this is a Bill which is far more important than the average Private Member's Bill.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, I am afraid I rather take exception to the noble Lord's remark made about my noble friend not taking this matter seriously. I know the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is a little inclined to make these remarks quickly, but he is a fair-minded person and I am sure he will agree, and the whole House will agree, that my noble friend does his utmost to try to suit the convenience of the House. I think the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, may
664
have found on occasion in the past that it is absolutely impossible to suit every Member in a House which prefers, for understandable and good reasons, to preserve complete flexibility and not have any time rules at all.
On the one hand, criticism could be made if we gave up Tuesdays or Thursdays, which are normally Government business days, on the ground that one would then be favouring this Bill. Fridays happen to be more suitable for the Law Lords, because they are not usually sitting then; and certainly it has been my experience, particularly under the previous Government, that important Private Members' Bills—and there have been a number, including the previous Matrimonial Causes Bill, with similar provisions, the Bill dealing with homosexual law reform and others of this kind—have been taken on Fridays. It is extremely difficult, and I ask your Lordships to accept that we do our best. It is unfortunate that these Bills are apt to arrive late with us, but certainly my noble friend will do his utmost to suit everyone. Indeed, this Bill has been put down for the Thursday. But I hope the noble Lord will not consider that my noble friend—or I, for that matter—does not treat this matter with the utmost seriousness. It is a matter of real difficulty.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am very glad to hear what the noble Lord has said, but may I ask him this question? He will remember that when the Bill was taken in another place and was discussed on a Friday there was a great deal of criticism, in the Press and outside it, about the fact that another place was dealing with this very important Bill on a day when not many people in another place turned up. How much more true will that be in this place! I hope that the noble Lord will reconsider this point because I think it is important.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I will only say that there is frequent criticism of Parliament: sometimes it is fair and sometimes it is unfair, and I believe that it was unfair on another place. The Members of another place are free, if they wish, to come and take part on a Friday, as indeed are the Members of this House, and I remember perfectly

665
well a Division in this House on a Friday which was a very large Division. I do appeal to the noble Lord that, even if he does not wish to make a complete withdrawal, he might say that he does not intend the remark he made to my noble friend about taking this matter seriously, because it sounded rather sharper than I think he intended it to be.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I put this point in supporting what my noble Leader has said? It has been said, as is technically correct, that this is a Private Member's Bill. But surely it is quite different from any ordinary Private Member's Bill to which we are accustomed, which comes forward and in which no particular interest is taken. Although it is technically a Private Member's Bill, it is a Bill which the Government have facilitated and pressed on in order that it might be taken and fully considered in all its stages in another place. I appeal to the noble Lord the Leader of the House to treat it in that way and to accept that Friday is far and away the most inconvenient day that he could possibly select.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, after all, the Opposition have the majority in this House. We have to conduct our business here in a general spirit of agreement, and on the whole I think we manage rather well. Perhaps they would be willing to take Government business on Fridays—and in fact I made such a suggestion; but I think there would be equal objection to that. I must say my own impression in my time in this House is that Friday is an appropriate day for Bills of this kind, I know that this is a House which is not paid for its services, but I am not sure whether a Friday is a particularly more important day to be absent from this House than a Tuesday or a Wednesday. Our area of choice is very small, and I would appeal to the House to accept that we are doing our best. And I would again remind the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that my noble friend does take this seriously.
LORD REID: My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the convenience of Lords of Appeal. May I ask him whether he is aware that ever since the Appellate Committee was set up 21 years ago it has been a rule, well understood, that
666
any noble Lord who sits on the Appellate Committee is entitled to have that Committee adjourned at any time in order to attend to business in this House. Accordingly it is no excuse at all for causing inconvenience to other Members to say that inconvenience would be caused to Lords of Appeal; because it would not.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I would just say to the noble and learned Lord that it was not an excuse; it was an attempt to be helpful, because one must have regard to those people who are concerned with the Appellate Committee. This is not a matter on which I think I should be further drawn; I will leave it to the noble and learned Lord to discuss it with my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack. But the point is taken. I hope we shall not press it. What was said was meant seriously and helpfully. I understood that Fridays were to that extent more convenient, but if the noble Lord says it makes no difference, I accept it.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, far be it from me to suggest that the Government are not taking the matter seriously; of course they arc. But surely there is considerable argument—and I believe the majority of noble Lords think this—that it would be very desirable to take this particular measure at a time when there is a maximum number of people here. Is it, therefore, beyond the wit of man to arrange something else on the Friday, even if it is public business?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, may I add a word? This is, of course, a Private Member's Bill, but the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor explained very clearly—and I did not criticise it at all—the reasons why such an important Bill as this had to be treated as a Private Member's Bill. Government time has been provided in another place, and I should have thought that for a measure of this importance it would be wise if Government time could be made available. May I put this other point? With a Bill of this sort, surely it is unusual to take the Committee stage on two successive days, Thursday and Friday. Is it not possible, when one looks at the Order Paper, that the remains of the Committee stage could be fitted in after the Sharing

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of Church Buildings Bill or the Transport (London) Bill Committee on recommittal, on the following Monday? Or is it not possible for us to depart from the usual rule and perhaps have the end of this Committee stage on July 16, when, according to the Order Paper, the last question we have to deal with on that day relates to monsters in Loch Ness?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I wonder whether it would not be better if the business of the House were considered in rather more detail through the usual channels. For our part, we are very happy to allocate a day in the week, but there are other points of view and they have to be meshed in. It is very difficult on the Floor of the House to gear and integrate the various considerations raised. If the usual channels agree that other important Bills, Government Bills, of which there are several, can be taken on a Friday, then no doubt other days can be found for the Divorce Bill. It is a matter for discussion.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I have the last word, as somebody who is very interested in this Bill? May I make an appeal to the House and to my noble friends, and remind them that this surely must be the most important social measure that is going through Parliament his Session. One cannot compare it with the homosexual Bill or the Abortion Bill. Both those Bills relate to certain comparatively small sections of the community. This Bill is related to the welfare of every family in the country, and for that reason I appeal to my noble friends—I know I have bothered them and they have heard my voice before on this subject to-day—to give it reconsideration.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, obviously the House does not wish to prolong this discussion. Again, I say to the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, that my noble friend and I do take this subject seriously, and we will do our best. But I think it will also be apparent to the House from the way the discussion has gone that it is not the easiest matter to arrange things to suit your Lordships' House. I remember a terrible scene in the last Session over the Seals Bill. I accept what my noble
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friend has said, that this is an immensely important matter, and we will do our best and will discuss it through the usual channels.

WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL
3.35 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, after the excitement of the last few minutes, I hope you will forgive me if, very briefly, I raise a small point on this particular Bill. I wish to talk about Clause 90, which relates to self-operated launderettes. The wording of the clause is identical to one in the Dudley Corporation Bill, and I hope your Lordships will forgive me if my remarks are somewhat repetitious. However, it is hard to make any new points. I wish to raise this as a matter of principle, because I think it would be unfortunate if it slipped through and became a precedent.
The Bill requires that launderettes provide lavatories. That sounds somewhat a small point. However, the reasons why I feel we should consider it are as follows. First, lavatories in unattended launderettes may be a danger. They provide a haven for a host of undesirables, such as tramps, drug addicts, vandals and perverts. Any unattended place, and particularly a launderette, can attract these people if parts of the premises are not in full view of the street and well lit at the same time. Secondly, the compulsory provision of lavatories would cause a problem, since these premises are already very crowded with equipment, and if lavatories had to be provided it would mean that there would be very much less space for machines. If lavatories were insisted upon there would presumably have to be two, as in most places; and if this were so the reduction in the number of machines at the launderette would, I feel, make its operation somewhat marginal. Moreover, it would be less convenient for the public—and necessitated only by these unwanted public conveniences.

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Thirdly, staff would have to be provided to look after the lavatories, which would add to the cost. Then all supplies and fuel services would be increased, and the additional costs involved, of course, would have to be passed on to the public. Finally, no proof has been shown that these provisions are necessary. The provisions have appeared for the first time in these two Private Bills. If such a need were shown, surely it would be proper for it to appear in general legislation. Consequently, I should be most grateful if the Select Committee considering this Bill (because it is an opposed Bill), will give careful consideration to this point, and one would hope that they will delete Clause 90.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, it is not out of vindictiveness to Wolverhampton or the Corporation that I am on my feet to support the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. It certainly seems to me somewhat unfair to make self-service laundry owners use up their limited, and therefore valuable, space for public lavatories and washbasins and so on when other businesses do not have to do so. From the point of view of the general public—and I have no other interest that I should declare in coin-operated launderettes—the mixture of washing clothes and cleansing bodies not only sounds unattractive but may well be unhygienic. The burden of keeping these lavatories clean will fall on the unfortunate proprietor. One wonders why people going to these launderettes cannot go to public conveniences while the machines are actually washing their clothes: they do not have to attend the machines while they are in operation. I think Clause 90, to which the noble Lord referred, puts on the wrong shoulders the responsibility for providing public conveniences.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD KENNET): My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if I were to give some indication of the Government's attitude to the question of whether or not lavatories should be compulsory in launderettes in Wolverhampton. The Government have no attitude. This is a Private Bill, and I simply hope, on behalf of the Government, that this Bill will go into Committee. I am sure that Lord Redesdale will have observed the
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custom of the House whereby noble Lords should consider whether or not they have an interest that should be declared.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, I did say that I declared in my speech on the Dudley Bill that there was an interest, but not in Wolverhampton.
LORD KENNET: I beg the noble Lord's pardon for having missed his reference back to an earlier declaration. The clause which exercises the noble Lord is one in respect of which there are Petitions against the Bill and this of course automatically ensures, what would no doubt be the case anyway, that the Committee will give their careful consideration to this matter.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, has just said, this is an opposed Bill. One of the Petitions that has been deposited against the Bill raises exactly the point that has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, about the provision of sanitary conveniences in launderettes, and the noble Lord can rest assured therefore that this matter will be most carefully considered by the Select Committee to which this Bill will be referred. I am quite sure that the Committee will also take note of the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and by the other noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

DEVELOPMENT OF TOURISM BILL
3.42 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This is the first time that this House has been asked by any Government to consider a measure dealing solely with tourism. Other countries have tourism Acts on their statute books. Indeed, other parts of the British Isles, such as Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands, have had such legislation since 1948.
Traditionally I think we regard ourselves in this country as travellers—as intrepid adventurers into distant lands. We do not see ourselves in the role of hosts

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to other travellers. Perhaps this is why people here have been slow to accept the idea that tourism has become one of our most important industries. It would come as a surprise to many to know that since the war the United Kingdom's earnings from tourism have increased faster than our invisible earnings as a whole, or than our export earnings.
This is not to say that the Government have not realised the importance of publicity and promotion overseas to bring in more visitors to this country. In 1950 the Government provided £600,000 to the then British Holiday and Travel Association for this work. Successive Governments have continued to provide increasing funds. By 1963 the grant-in-aid was £1½, million. To-day we provide a grant of £3 million. I said when we were discussing this during a debate last December that I thought we were doing very well by the British Travel Association. And I stick to this.
Certainly, our inward traffic is increasing at a very satisfactory rate. The latest figures we have show that last year the number of visits to this country by people living overseas went up by 14 per cent. as compared with the previous year. Earnings in sterling rose by 20 per cent. to the figure of £282 million—and this is not counting international payments for air and sea travel to and from the United Kingdom. The figures for the first four months of this year are even more encouraging. They show a 20 per cent. increase over the number of visits made during the same period of last year. Of course, the rate of growth fluctuates from year to year, but all the evidence suggests that this industry has exceptional growth prospects.
Earnings from overseas visitors are only part of the story. Our tourist industry also provides holidays for some 26 million of our own people every year. Some take more than one holiday, so this adds up to about 30 million holidays a year. Now I am not suggesting that all these holidays would be taken abroad if people could not have a good holiday in this country, but some would. There is, therefore, an import saving element to be taken into account when assessing the contribution of the industry to the balance of payments. This is something which it is difficult to quantify. But last
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year about 7 million visits abroad were made by residents of this country, and they spent £270 million in other countries. A large increase in the numbers going abroad for their holidays would, therefore, have a significant effect on the debit side of the balance of payments. In saying this, I am not trying to discourage people from going abroad for their holidays, though we have to maintain temporary restrictions on the amount of money each person can spend.
But despite the fact that our tourist industry can look to a steady home market and to an expanding export trade, the growth of facilities for tourists has not kept pace with the growth of traffic. While the number of visitors to this country has been growing, investment in hotels has been falling; and I hope I can inhibit the comment that that is due to S.E.T. because ail the indications are that investment in hotels was on the decline before selective employment tax was thought of.
If the momentum of growth in our tourist traffic is to be kept up, we must make sure that our visitors can find somewhere to stay. We must be sure that there are good reception facilities, and that there are adequate facilities for them to enjoy their holidays. We want them to come back again. I want to stress particularly the importance of encouraging people to come back for second and third visits to this country. I suppose most of us when visiting a country for the first time think of visiting its capital and the places we have heard of most frequently. It is when we go back for a subsequent visit that we become more adventurous and start to explore the smaller towns and villages, the countryside and the highways and byways. At present three-quarters of all overseas visitors spend at least one night in London and more than half visit no other part of the country. There is, therefore, a tremendous concentration of overseas visitors on London and when they do go further a field this tends to be to a limited number of places, principally to Oxford and Stratford-on-Avon.
It is of the utmost importance, if we are to be able to accommodate all the people who wish to visit this country and if we are to make the best use of our resources, that our overseas visitors should travel widely throughout the country. We want far more overseas visitors

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to go to Scotland; we want far more to go to Wales; we want them to visit the South-West, to explore Norfolk and the splendid country to be found in the North of England. We are more likely to get this spread of tourist traffic if a higher proportion of those coming here are people who are coming for a second or third visit.
In what I have just said I have purposely laid stress on the importance of tourism in the context of our balance of payments. This lies at the heart of the Government's determination to take positive measures to encourage the expansion of the industry, and this is the purpose of the Bill which we are now considering. But I do not put this Bill forward simply as a foreign currency-earning measure, important though this is. The Bill also provides a framework within which fresh developments and new opportunities for employment may arise in parts of the country unsuited to industry. It provides also an opportunity for the development of machinery for combining Government action with opportunities for participation by a wide range of public and private interests.
I should now like to say something about the Bill itself. It is in three Parts. Part I sets up a new statutory tourist organisation. The decision to set up a statutory body was made after a very careful examination of the part which the Government should play in developing our tourist industry. The industry can be developed only by a partnership between public and private enterprise. If we consider for a moment what is happening now I think this will be obvious. I suppose we do not often realise the important part which the work of the Ministry of Public Building and Works plays in our tourist industry; and yet if we think about it it is obvious, because so many people come here to see our historical buildings and monuments of our past history.
Private enterprise, on the other hand, provides the greater part of the accommodation in which the visitors stay. So already we have a joint effort. This, I think, must continue. But I think that the important role which Government must assume in future is the role of stimulating investment by other people in the sort of facilities that will be needed if we are to have the right en-
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vironment to encourage people to take and enjoy their holidays here. This involves so many people and so many interests that it could never be done by any one organisation. Local authorities are involved: the retail trade, transport undertakings, people concerned with facilities for sport and recreation, public bodies who are concerned with the countryside and with our waterways—the list is almost endless.
It is quite unrealistic to think that there could be any effective central control, for example, under a Minister of Tourism. What is needed is a co-ordinating force, a body which will ensure that people whose activities affect tourism know what are the needs of tourists. Perhaps I might describe it as a body whose job will be to give technical advice and assistance to others. For example, I would not expect a tourist body to tell an Oxford college that in the interests of tourism it should be open to the public during June. Oxford colleges are not maintained primarily for the benefit of tourists, although they are of enormous interest to them. But I would expect a Tourist Board to be able to forecast the rate at which visitors to Oxford will grow, so that those who are planning car parking facilities, for example, can know what they will have to face.
I would expect the tourist body to be an expert body carrying out research not only into the needs of the market but also into the ways in which special facilities should be constructed. The British Travel Association itself has suggested that changes were needed and that the body responsible for tourism should have statutory powers. In the light of the Association's views, and our own consideration of the problem, we have come to the conclusion that the right sort of organisation to carry out this kind of work, to maintain liaison with other public bodies, to give financial assistance where needed to encourage the development of facilities, and to continue the work of publicity and promotion, would be a statutory organisation.
We propose in Part 1 of the Bill to set up four statutory tourist boards.. The British Tourist Authority will be responsible for overseas promotion and for matters affecting tourism in the country as a whole. Perhaps I might say that in future I should like to refer to this

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body as the "Authority" as it saves saying such a mouthful each time. Separate statutory Boards are proposed for England, Scotland and Wales. The last two will be responsible to the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales respectively.
Clause 1 and Schedule 1 contain the basic provisions necessary for the establishment of the Authority, and the English, Scottish and Welsh Tourist Boards, and for the appointment of members and staff. Clause 2 describes their general functions and powers. It places on the Authority responsibility for overseas promotion work outside the United Kingdom but the English, Scottish and Wales Boards—the "country Boards" as we may call them—take part in determining overseas promotion policy through their Chairmen, who will be members of the Authority. Each Board will be able to carry out promotional work on a co-operative basis and to attract commercial revenue from publications and advertisements. Indeed, the amount of promotional work, particularly within the United Kingdom, will be affected by the extent to which co-operative contributions and comercial revenue be responsible for encouraging the pro-are forthcoming. Each Board will also vision of more and better tourist amenities and facilities in their areas.
At this point I should like to apologise for a clerical error in the Explanatory Memorandum preceding the Bill. The seventh line dealing with Clause 2 should be deleted. It was a hangover from the previous edition of the Bill and it has been changed since then. The line we wish to delete is:
"The Authority is also to have this function as respects England."
I have already referred to the wide range of interests involved in providing facilities for tourists and holidaymakers. The new Tourist Boards will be able to achieve results only by working very closely with local authorities, with other public bodies and with trade interests. There are already in some parts of the country voluntary associations which bring these interests together at regional or area level. These associations will have an increasingly important part to play in securing real progress in improving local facilities. They will also con-
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tinue to be intimately concerned in publicising their areas and in providing information for their visitors. It is right, therefore, that our Bill should recognise that membership associations set up to develop the tourist industry in a particular area are an important feature in the overall organisation for tourism. Consequently Clause 2 of the Bill draws the attention of the new organisation to the desirability of fostering, and co-operating with, such bodies. Indeed the Tourist Boards will be expected to make cooperative action the keynote of their way of working. And because of the importance of this, Clause 2 draws attention particularly to the importance of consultation with a wide range of other interests. We must leave it to the Tourist Boards to devise their own machinery, but I have no doubt that they will do this in such a way as to mobilise the help and good will of the tourist trade and of the bodies both public and private who are in effect, part of the "tourist industry".
Clause 3 will enable the British Tourist Authority to propose a general scheme of financial assistance for a class of tourist project. Such a scheme would need the approval of each House of Parliament. The Government do not at present envisage any scheme being introduced while significant payments are still being made under the Hotel Development Incentives Scheme for which Part 11 of the Bill provides.
Clause 4 provides powers to give financial assistance to particular tourist projects by way of grant, loan or investment and would also enable a Tourist Board to undertake a project itself. We see this essentially as an ability to carry out a pump priming operation. The ability to give financial assistance is not intended as an automatic alternative to projects being financed on a normal commercial basis or by public bodies, such as local authorities, through their existing powers and resources. The Tourist Boards will obviously need to assess priorities, benefits and the need for assistance in relation to any project in which their financial participation or assistance is proposed. Safeguards have been written in in the form of a requirement that Ministerial and Treasury approval must be obtained for assistance given under this clause.

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Before we leave Part I of the Bill, there is one other feature which I should like to mention. This is the relationship between the organisation we are now setting up under the Bill and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, which is already in existence and was set up under Northern Ireland legislation. Tourism is one of the subjects which is within the responsibilities of the Northern Ireland Government to whom the Northern Ireland Tourist Board is responsible. That Tourist Board has wide enough powers to carry out not only the domestic development of tourism but also overseas promotion. It would in those circumstances be wrong for this Bill to give to the Authority any duty in relation to the promotion of Northern Ireland. However, we all recognise, not least the Northern Ireland Government and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, that there are enormous advantages in carrying out overseas promotion in terms of the United Kingdom as a whole. The present British Travel Association maintains 20 offices in overseas countries. There is simply no sense in trying to duplicate work on this scale. For this reason with the concurrence of the Northern Ireland Government, we have given the new British Tourist Authority powers under Clause 5 of the Bill to carry out overseas promotion for Northern Ireland at the request of the Northern Ireland Tourist Board. We have also provided a power to carry out overseas promotion to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man if their Tourist Boards so wish.
I now turn to Part II of the Bill. I have already referred to the shortage of hotel accommodation. The House will be aware that the Government put forward proposals last year for a scheme of assistance to hotels in a White Paper entitled, Hotel Development Incentives. Part II of the Bill, together with Schedules 2, 3 and 4, provides for the implementation of this scheme. As the scheme has already been described in considerable detail in the White Paper, I will not attempt to-day to deal with its provisions in detail. There is, however, one point that I should like to make. The scheme has limited objectives. It is not a scheme designed simply to put more money into the pockets of every hotelier. It is intended to encourage the building of more hotels of the sort needed by overseas visitors and to do it quickly. The scheme
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is for a limited period only. It has been described as a "shot in the arm". I have no quarrel with this description. The scheme is not designed to give help to all kinds of holiday accommodation but only to "serviced" hotel accommodation. Of course, other types of holiday accommodation are needed by tourists and holidaymakers. But there is no evidence that the supply of such accommodation is falling short of demand, or that it is not sufficiently profitable. There is evidence that investment in the sort of hotels which we are seeking to assist under this scheme is not sufficiently profitable to call forward the volume of investment needed to meet demand.
We now come to Part III. Here there are two provisions which I should like to mention to-day. The first is the enabling power, in Clause 17, which would permit, through an Order in Council, the registration, clasification or grading of tourist accommodation. Let me say straightaway that the Government have no predetermined scheme in mind, and one of the tasks of the Authority will be to advise the Government on this subject. To do so it will need to act in consultation with the English, Scottish and Wales Tourist Boards, and also to have wide consultations with organisations representative of trade and consumer interests. In proposing this provision we have had in mind that, although there are a number of accommodation guides of one sort or another, comprehensive information is not easily and generally available on all hotels, and on other principal forms of tourist accommodation. Whatever scheme might be introduced in the future, there would still be a place for selective guides catering for special needs or for particular tourist centres. There would be no question of giving the tourist organisation a monopoly in this field.
I am well aware that some think that registration should be done on a voluntary basis: and the present British Travel Association are of this view. But the fact remains that there has never been anything to prevent this from being done and we still have no register of hotels in this country, in fact, we do not know how many there are. Estimates suggest that the figure may be between 12,000 and 17,000, if we consider only those with ten or more letting bedrooms. The total might be some 30,000. Yet a visitor to

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this country who waded through every guide that is published would know of only 8,000 hotels in all. I am satisfied, therefore, that we are right to seek enabling powers for a compulsory system.
The second feature of Part III, which I will mention briefly, is the enabling power in Clause 18 under which hotels could be required to display their room prices. This is a late addition to the Bill. During discussion of the measure in another place a considerable body of opinion was found to be in favour of including a provision in the Bill on the lines of this clause. It has been hailed by all shades of opinion as a considerable measure of consumer protection. I have no doubt that an order made under this clause would make a real contribution towards providing a better service, both for our visitors from overseas, and for our own people travelling on business or pleasure.
I hope that we shall have a very full discussion of the provisions of this Bill. This House is particularly rich in talent and experience in the field of tourism. It includes, among its numbers, an expert on selling our tourist attractions overseas several who are experts in the actual work of providing attractions for visitors both from home and overseas. In particular, it includes Lord Geddes, who has been Chairman of the British Travel Association for the last five years. Under his vigorous and inspired guidance the Association has performed a great service to the tourist industry and to the country as a whole. We are all deeply grateful to the Association and to its Chairman.
The Bill provides a framework for the future development of our tourist industry. It is important both that the frame should he the right shape, and that those who will fill in the picture should benefit from the advice and experience which so many in this House have accumulated over the years. Before I finish, may I say that the noble Lord. Lord Shackleton, will shortly move a Motion that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee of the kind which we found so useful on the Gaming Pill last Session. Our experiment with that Bill was afterwards considered by the Select Committee on Procedure. They reported that the experiment had been successful, and recommended that we should use it again when we had a suitable Public Bill. I think it would
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be a good idea to use it again for the Development of Tourism Bill, because this Bill has already aroused a great deal of interest, and, as your Lordships will remember, that kind of Committee procedure gives us much more freedom and informality in discussion, which I think will be especially helpful in this case. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Brown.)
4.5 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, first of all, may I thank the noble Lord for taking us so succinctly through this Bill, and, in particular, for having outlined to your Lordships the reasons why the Government have come to the conclusions that are set out in Part I of the Bill? Before I deal with anything else, and since this Bill is to go to a Committee "upstairs", may I ask the noble Lord to confirm what I think is the case, that, although the numbers on that Committee will he extremely small it will be open to any Member of your Lordships' House to attend that Committee, to move Amendments and speak to them—to do everything except vote in the Committee? After the noble Lord referred to the wealth of experience in this House, it came a little oddly when he said that this was to be referred to a small Select Committee. If I am right, that experience can be deployed in the Committee, even although the people with the wealth of experience are not all Members of it. I believe this to be the case, but I thought it as well to make it clear from the start.
I cannot help feeling that although the noble Lord said that this question of an Authority and statutory Boards has been under consideration for some time, what has really brought the Government to the conclusion to have them is that they decided to provide in this Bill for the taxpayers' money to be paid out for two purposes: first, to encourage the building of new hotels and extensions, and the modernisation of fixed equipment; and, secondly, to enable financial assistance to be given for the provision or improvement of tourist amenities and facilities. I was rather disappointed to hear from the noble Lord, if I understood him correctly, that that second purpose is not to be brought into operation until after the first purpose has been fulfilled.

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As to the second purpose, I take it that the Government have in mind tourist centres, such as Aviemore. I have no criticism to make of that, especially as the financial assistance is to be provided only in accordance with carefully thought out schemes prepared by the British Tourist Authority, which will be a reconstituted British Travel Association, and also after approval by both Houses. But the first purpose, like any scheme for handing out the taxpayers' money, whether by way of grant or loan, needs much more careful scrutiny and justification.
We have to ask a number of questions about this purpose. We have to ask whether it is the only way, or the best way, to achieve the objective of more hotel accommodation. Is it necessary? Is it in the public interest? If so, should it be, and need it be, indiscriminate? Is encouragement needed in all cases and in all areas? Are the conditions under which the money is to be handed out fair and equitable to the industry as a whole? Will they achieve what hotel users, both British and foreign, really want? Also, and not least important, what happens when the scheme comes to an end, so far as investment in hotels is concerned? I find it difficult to believe that it is necessary, solely in order to administer these two schemes, to alter radically the present system which has worked so well.
I know the noble Lord has said that there are other purposes here; but that the present system has worked well so far as attracting foreign visitors is concerned can hardly be disputed. Indeed, the noble Lord pronounced a kind of valedictory encomium on the British Travel Association in its present form, with which I am sure we should all agree. Great credit is due to the tourist industry in general, and to the British Travel Association in particular, for this great success. From the point of view of our balance of trade, the British Travel Association's marketing policies have been amazingly successful. The total number of overseas visitors, excluding 750,000 from the Irish Republic, passed the 4 million mark last year. Of these, according to the British Travel Association's estimates, just over 3 million were foreigners, compared with some 800,000 only 14 years ago.
Over the last five years, the number of visitors to this country from the United States has increased twice as fast
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as the number of visitors from the United States to the 15 other main West-European countries. This is undoubtedly due in large measure to the policy not only of selling Britain as a whole but of selling Britain as the gateway to Europe. In other words, it would be a mistake to try to sell Britain in isolation, and a still greater mistake to try to sell England or Scotland or Wales in isolation. The British Travel Association has been particularly successful in spreading visits from overseas more evenly over the whole year. I understand that the rate of increase in winter visits to Britain is higher than the rate of increase in other European countries, despite their natural advantages in winter sporting facilities.
But the British Travel Association, as the noble Lord said, advised the Government that unless the rate of investment in hotel accommodation was increased the rate of growth in the number of visitors from overseas would be inhibited; and, of course, we cannot afford to ignore any possible increase in our overseas earnings, although we cannot be sure that the number of overseas visitors will continue to rise indefinitely. The £50 limit on travel overseas does not help, for it tends to encourage other countries to put limits on their nationals. For example, I understand that both the United States and France have put limits on their nationals, and the limits which the United States of America placed on their people cost this country last year 100,000 visitors from the United States of America.
The Government have decided to stimulate the rate of investment by a temporary scheme for assistance in the provision of hotel bedrooms and the installation of fixed equipment. To qualify for assistance (and the noble Lord did not mention this) work must have begun on or after April 1 of last year—which, incidentally, is even before the White Paper, Hotel Development Incentives, was published—and before March 31, 1971, and must be completed not later than March 31, 1973; in other words, less than two years will remain after the passage of this Bill for the starting of this work, and less than four years for completion. To administer the grants and loans, the Government propose to set up three national Boards, for England, Scotland and Wales. They

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also propose to set up the statutory British Tourist Authority to carry on the work of the British Travel Association in marketing Britain as a tourist attraction abroad, and also to prepare schemes for the Boards to assist projects for providing or improving tourist amenities and facilities.
One cannot help doubting the wisdom of replacing the British Travel Association, which has done such outstanding work, and of setting up this permanent structure of statutory Boards for the purpose, it seems to me (at least, this was the original purpose), of giving a temporary injection of capital into the tourist industry. It was this, in my belief, that led the Government to come to these conclusions. Whenever the Government are faced with a problem, their natural inclination seems to be to set up one or more statutory boards with powers to take the place of voluntary co-operation. The step to regimentation is a short one, and the regimentation contemplated in Part III seems to follow.
My Lords, can it really be said that the Boards are essential? The Board of Trade has for years administered the grants and loans to industry in development areas. It has also been saddled by the present Government with the invidious task of making investment grants—another example of handing out public money instead of allowing people to keep as much as possible of what they earn. The Ministry of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture in Scotland have for many years administered the farm improvement schemes. If grants and loans can be made by Departments to individual farms and individual factories, surely they can be made by Departments to individual hotels.
But why are the grants and loans needed at all? The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum says:
"… it is possible that annual expenditure could rise to about £8 million"—
presumably per annum—
"during the operation of Part II of the Bill".
But, my Lords, how much a year are the Government taking out of the industry at present? How much are they taking out in S.E.T.? The figure of £28 million a year has been mentioned. Is that correct? It does not look a very good bargain: £28 million taken from
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all; £8 million to be handed out to some. The Government have blandly said that the hotel industry is not suitable for investment grants. Yet they are proposing to give grants for installing fixed equipment. We on this side do not like the system of investment grants. We believe that a system of investment allowances, with free depreciation in development areas, is more economical and more conductive to efficiency. But why have these grants to be administered by statutory Boards when the Board of Trade could do it along with their other duties? Or have the Government at last come to the conclusion that the burden they have been placing on the Board of Trade is altogether excessive?
Are these grants necessary? Are they needed in every case? There may be perfectly good answers to these questions that I am posing. The President of the Board of Trade said in the House of Commons on June 23 (col. 1095):
"All the evidence is that we are having a higher rate of investment in new hotel accommodation than we have had for many years, on the part of both considerable British companies and a number of international companies … The reason for this is the highly prosperous state of travel and tourism".
That hardly makes the case for Government grants, or even loans, at least to "considerable hotels", at the expense of taxpayers, including those hotels which cannot afford the high minimum amount of investment in new bedrooms which is needed to qualify for loan assistance under the Bill—£20,000 in the case of a new hotel and £10,000 in the case of an extension or alteration. Incidentally, the maximum loan to a "considerable hotel" is no less than £500,000, which would take quite a lot of that £8 million.
Does what the President of the Board of Trade said apply universally throughout the country? If there are parts of the country in which this is not true, then ought not the available finance to be concentrated on them, in the same way as industrial assistance is concentrated on development areas? Can the noble Lord give figures to show just where all this investment is taking place? Unless he has such figures I do not see how we can reach rational decisions as to the type of hotel building which needs encouragement or the areas in which more bedrooms are needed but will not be supplied without assistance. Where is the shortage of

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hotel accommodation for overseas tourists most acute; and what sort of accommodation is most needed? If the noble Lord cannot answer these questions we shall be forced to the conclusion that this scheme is not just a shot in the arm but a shot in the dark.
We shall have to look very carefully in Committee at the conditions on which grants may be made; and I trust that we shall have an assurance from the noble Lord that the Government will keep an open mind on this matter and will not treat it as a matter of House of Commons Privilege. Why is it necessary to require that at least 10 letting bedrooms should be provided in new hotels, or five additional letting bedrooms in existing hotels, as a condition for getting the grant? is it right to insist on the provision of dinners as a condition for getting assistance? Is it right to insist on the provision of five additional bedrooms as a condition of grant for extensions—without, I may say, any increase in bathrooms? I have in mind the inns and small hotels in rural areas where even two or three extra bedrooms would be a useful addition to the national store of hotel bedrooms, but where bathroom accommodation may already be inadequate. Is there really to be no quality test at all? What is meant by an "extension" of an hotel? Is it sufficient to provide an annex, or must the bedrooms be literally an extension of the hotel?
What is to be the position of motels, consisting of separate permanent buildings? There are many questions I should like to ask. No doubt they are Committee points, but I mention them to illustrate how difficult, it is to lay down conditions which are both fair to the industry as a whole and flexible enough to meet different circumstances and the needs of different areas. Are unsatisfactory hotels to get the benefit of these grants even if they merely provide additional bedrooms and do nothing to improve the general standards?
My Lords, I return to my main theme. Although there has been pressure for some time in some quarters to establish statutory Boards for Scotland and Wales, it is obviously as a consequence of the scheme for the grants and loans that these four new statutory Boards were conceived. The British Travel Association have achieved their results by volun-
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tary co-operation. They are tremendous results. They are now to be replaced by a statutory authority. In passing, let me say that nothing is said in the Bill about the employees of the B.T.A. Will they be given the opportunity of employment in the Authority? Will those for whom there is no place in the Authority or on one of the Boards be compensated for loss of their jobs; or have they to rely solely on the Redundancy Payments Act? I hope that the noble Lord will be able to tell us.
I hope also that the Authority will be allowed normal commercial freedom in choosing grades and fixing salaries of their staff. One cannot expect highly-skilled marketing executives to be content with grading on Civil Service grades. Do not let us be fobbed off with the argument that the Authority is just a spending department. All marketing departments are spending departments. They must have latitude to determine the job to be done and the rate for the job.
And what about the relations between the Authority and the Boards? At the present time, there are 23 members of the B.T.A. if I am correct, including the Chairman, my noble friend Lord Geddes, and the Deputy Chairman. They are drawn from every part of Britain and virtually every branch of the tourist industry. The new Authority is to consist of a Chairman and eight members, three of whom are the Chairmen of the English, Scottish and Welsh Boards. The noble Lord was good enough to mention Northern Ireland. If these Boards are to be represented on the Authority, should not the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Tourist Board also sit on the Board, with, of course, the agreement of the Northern Ireland Government? At least it is clearly essential that Northern Ireland should continue Ito enjoy the same facilities and relations with the Authority as it now has with the B.T.A. in regard to overseas promotion.
So far as the constitution of the Authority is concerned, it seems a curious arrangement. The Chairmen of the Boards are to be responsible respectively to the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Wales. Their loyalty to the Authority, of which they are members, is likely to be sorely tested. I would say only this. This may work; but it will

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need the greatest determination on the part of all concerned to make it work. It could be disastrous. Secondly, what is to replace the very wide representation of the B.T.A. and all the intimate and informal links that this representation gives? There is a great deal to be said for advisory committees to assist the Authority and each of the Boards. I am not a lover of statutory boards; but if we must have them in an industry as diverse as this, should there not be a statutory advisory committee to help each of them?
Also, there is a great deal of difference between contacts with different organisations, however informal and friendly, and the advice of trusted advisers who know the ins and outs of the business from their daily work. I believe that a duty should he laid on each Board to appoint committees, possibly in consultation with the Ministry which appoints the Board. Is each Board to be allowed to go its own sweet way without reference to the Authority on matters which are within each Board's own sphere? It is generally recognised that there are functions which the Authority could best and most economically perform for the whole of Britain. Let me quote one or two of them.
First, since only the Authority is to carry on activities outside the United Kingdom for the purpose of encouraging people to visit Great Britain or any part of it, it would be sensible to develop a central system for the reservation of accommodation for overseas visitors for the whole of Great Britain. Secondly, since marketing means determining what people want and are likely to buy if it is provided—and not just providing something and getting someone to sell it—the Authority must surely have a say in what is to be provided in the way of tourist facilities and attractions and hotel accommodation in these three countries. It is essential, therefore, that the three Boards should consult the Authority as to what is to be provided in their areas. Such consultations should be required in the Bill and not just left to chance or to the discretion of the Boards.
Thirdly, there are functions like the training of guides and the signposting of historic houses, which should be uniform throughout Great Britain. Fourthly, there
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must be close co-operation between the Boards; and this, too, can best be arranged by the Authority. Co-ordination there must certainly be. Who is there to arrange it but the Authority? Fifthly, we must not forget that it is the British tourists who use the hotels most of all—a surprising figure. I think: although according to the B.T.A. estimate only one-seventh of the main holidays are taken in licensed hotels as compared with one-quarter in boarding houses and unlicensed hotels. In the present state of the nation's finances we should certainly be encouraging our people to take their holidays at home. In that I agree with the noble Lord. The trouble is that since taxes are being heaped on to the hotels and costs are rising so much, it is sometimes cheaper for a Londoner to take a package tour abroad than to go to the North or the West.
Two years ago the B.T.A. were given £300,000, I believe, to spend on a campaign in this country for holidays in Britain. Last year that was reduced to £100,000. Is it to be left to the three Boards to spend whatever the Government allocate for this campaign in the future? If it is, there is certainly room for co-operation with the Authority if the best results for the money are to be obtained.
This brings me to the last point I wish to make. The gross income of the B.T.A. in the year ending March, 1968—the last B.T.A. report is not yet available—amounted to over £3,500,000. Government grants in that year totalled £2.8 million or a little more. Contributions were £205,000. Receipts from advertisements in B.T.A. publications and other services amounted to over £500,000. Of the British Travel Association's £3,500,000 revenue, £340,000 was spent on travel promotion within Great Britain. It seems unlikely, I am bound to say in passing, that those who contributed to the funds of the voluntary B.T.A. will wish to contribute to a statutory Authority. They may well switch their contributions to the Boards, statutory though they be, or to the regional tourist organisations. That is more probable. I would hope that these contributions will not be lost to the promotion of tourism as a whole. That indicates that in all probability it is going to be necessary for the Government to replace that £200.000 in one way or another.

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From what was said in another place, it appears that the Government do not intend to increase by very much their total grants to the Authority and Boards combined. I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us what the Budget is likely to be. What is of the greatest importance for our balance of payments is that the number of overseas visitors should continue to increase. That is unlikely to happen if the money available for overseas marketing operations is reduced. I would ask the noble Lord to give an assurance to-night that there is no question of the amount needed to maintain the overseas offices (he mentioned 20, I thought there were 23) and to keep up the volume of publicity being reduced. Any reduction would indeed be paradoxical; it would almost be a perverse result of this reorganisation.
I shall leave Part III of the Bill to other speakers. It deals with registration and notification of prices to be charged for accommodation. All I would ask is that the provisions in Clauses 17 and 18 shall not be brought into operation except on the recommendation of the British Tourist Authority. To sum up, my Lords, this Bill may now be necessary because hotel accommodation is short, although there are conflicting statements about that. At any rate, it is short in some areas. But I am hound to say that I cannot regard the Bill with any enthusiasm. Most of its provisions would not have been necessary if the Government had been able to inspire the necessary confidence in the industry as to its future. But the Government have not been able to inspire that confidence, certainly not under Socialist rule. However, my Lords, I would not recommend my noble friends to oppose the Bill, but we shall certainly try to improve it during its passage through your Lordships' House.
4.31 p.m.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, as a director of a shipping company which benefits from tourism I must declare an interest. But, apart from that, having had the honour to be Chairman of the British Travel Association for the last 5½ years and Deputy Chairman for three years before that, it would seem appropriate that I should inform your Lordships as to my views about this Bill. So far as I am concerned, the first thoughts
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which led up to this Bill date back to the slimmer of 1967. Although there had been earlier efforts to promote tourism to Britain, the present campaign has been continuous since 1951. It has been a campaign to promote and market tourism to this country. When it started the total visitor figure was about half a million per annum, but by 1967 this had grown to 3½ million and, as your Lordships have heard, it is now past the 4 million mark. The latest figures I have indicate something like a 20 per cent. increase this year over last year.
In the field of promotion and marketing there is little doubt that the British Travel Association had achieved world supremacy, but it was becoming clear that it would soon be necessary to improve the goods that we were selling if we were to avoid finding ourselves oversold: that is to say, something would have to be done to improve and increase our tourist amenities if we were to receive and to give satisfaction to the increasing flood of visitors. In my travels abroad too often I heard about the need to telephone as many as 14 London hotels before one could obtain a bed in London in midsummer. From the report in to-day's Times, this year appears to be no exception. One tour operator in New York told me that he had eliminated Scotland completely from any of his operations because of the difficulty of finding overnight accommodation. Other countries had accepted the necessity for the expenditure of public funds for the provision of tourist amenities, and the British Travel Association presented the case to Her Majesty's Government that the time had come when something similar would have to be done in this country. Broadly, this submission was accepted and is reflected in Parts I and II of the Bill.
In this connection, may I particularly draw to the attention of your Lordships Clause 3(1), where it is provided that the Authority may prepare schemes
"being projects which … will provide or improve tourist amenities and facilities in Great Britain."
"Projects" I understand to mean anything from the great scale of Aviemore at the one end to helping with canal boats or tennis courts at the other. That my Lords, is the nucleus of this Bill in my opinion, but it carries with it an implication that funds will be needed

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to carry out such schemes; and in some cases public money may have to be made available to prime the pump. So far so good; but there are weaknesses explicit in the Bill to which I feel it is my duty to draw your Lordships' attention. One weakness is implicit in the discussions which have taken place thus far.
The promotion of tourism is one of those fields of human activity in which everyone thinks he is an expert, and nearly everyone bases his opinion on his own experience. Nothing could be further from the truth. The promotion of tourism is a highly competitive commercial operation in which it is essential to employ many different skills. The concept of this Bill is that the new Authority and Boards will be responsible for such promotion, but explicitly it is provided that as to pay and staff policies they will have to conform to detailed control by Her Majesty's Government. From my experience I know that this means comparison, grade by grade, with the Civil Service. I believe that this is absolutely wrong. In my view, the Chairmen of the Boards should be carefully selected, but, once appointed, they should be entrusted to carry out their responsibilities uninhibited by detailed control by people whose experience is far removed from the problems with which the Authority is dealing.
My Lords, I reached that conclusion only after bitter experience. In the autumn of 1967 it became clear to me that certain staff adjustments were necessary and additionally that some new senior appointments were required in order to develop the tourist regionalisation of England; to guide and instruct the embryonic regional tourist association. The staff adjustments which, in any business, would have been decided on without delay took no less than a year to grind their way through the meshes of bureaucracy. As regards the new appointments, after a year of uncertainty we were told that they could not be made. It can be argued that by its very success the British Travel Association has shown that it could live and operate within the present controls. But, my Lords, no one knows better than I do how often we have failed merely because
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of a restricted budget and the heavy hand of bureaucracy on our staffing policy.
The second weakness lies in the fact that the Bill, which creates four separate statutory bodies, fails adequately to ensure cohesion between those bodies—apart from the requirement that the Chairmen of the England, Wales and Scotland Boards should be members of the Authority. Apart from political and emotional considerations, there are practical reasons why the country Boards should be made responsible for much of the development of tourist amenities within their boundaries. But there are other areas where cohesion between these Boards is of paramount importance. Not only is such cohesion necessary in fields such as research, but the new organisation will work only if the Authority, being responsible for overseas promotion, is equally made responsible for guiding the country Boards in the needs of their potential customers. It would, for example, be silly for each of the country Boards to develop independently in such matters as hotel standards, guide training and road signs.
Clause 2 of the Bill makes the Authority responsible for encouraging the improvement of tourist amenities in Great Britain, but then goes on to impose similar responsibilities on the country Boards, as though they were different from Great Britain as a whole. Furthermore, the country Boards, and in due course the regional bodies, will require trained staff. This staff can be effective only with experience of overseas operations. Contrariwise, the overseas representatives can be effective only if they understand the home administration. I firmly believe that the training and the provision of effective staff for home and overseas is a single function and should be vested in the Authority.
For these reasons I believe that the Bill should at least make provision for discussions between the country Boards and the Authority, and in some cases it should impose on the Authority responsibility to co-ordinate. As at present worded, Clause 2 gives the Authority responsibility for encouraging the provision and improvement of tourist amenities and facilities in Great Britain, and the three country Boards like responsibilities for their respective countries. Yet Great Britatin is not different from England, Scotland and Wales; we are

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talking about one whole country in which many national bodies, both commercial and non-commercial, State-owned and privately run, have as their field for their enterprise one area, not three separate territories. The only means of coordination of activity provided for in the Bill is the tenuous link, to which I have referred, through the presence of the Chairmen of the four independent bodies on the Board of the British Tourist Authority. But that is not adequate for the magnitude of the task, which is basically a commercial, not a political, activity.
I said just now that there was also an implicit weakness which had appeared in the discussions about this Bill. It has been suggested that the new structure of national tourist Boards should be brought into being and that the new Authority should continue the present overseas promotion, all within a sum of money only fractionally more than that granted in the current year to the British Travel Association. Without a shadow of doubt, the new national Boards will need funds. Indeed, a responsible Minister is reported to have said that the new Scottish Tourist Board would have available in its first year of operation £250,000 to spend on general promotion. On the other side of the account, a considerable part of the £200,000 a year which members have contributed to the British Travel Association will disappear. Can Her Majesty's Government give an assurance now that the money available for overseas promotion will be at least sufficient to allow the present overseas promotion effort to be maintained? Let there be no mistake, experience has shown that it takes many years to recover the damage which would be done by even a temporary reduction in overseas promotion.
I am loath to burden your Lordships with statistics, but perhaps you will bear with me if I give a few figures. Between 1966 and the current year, the visitor revenue, excluding the fares paid to British carriers, has increased by approximately £60 million. Between those two years, the Government grant-in-aid increased by less than £1 million. I believe that we are under-investing in tourism and I am convinced that a comparatively small increase in the grant, year by year, could make a major difference to the country's earnings from tourism. Not only that, but there is a
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counter flow which is almost equally important. Each year about 5½ million people from this country go abroad, excluding those who go to Ireland. I think this figure disagrees slightly with that given by the noble Lord, Lord Brown, but it is approximately that. They do so for many reasons, but one of the reasons is that foreign resorts are so much better promoted in this country than our own.
When Her Majesty's Government introduced this miserable £50 travel allowance, later reduced by devaluation to £43, I urged that it would be more effective to promote home holidays than to try to restrict foreign travel. The argument was accepted; and at the beginning of 1968 we commenced a Home Holidays Campaign, which was to cost £1 million spread over three years. At the end of the first year Her Majesty's Government saw fit to cut the funds available for this campaign. In a time of financial stringency it seemed to me to be the height of folly to withhold £300,000 which could have reversed the outward tide to the tune of millions.
Instead of positive action to encourage and help British residents to travel in Britain and to make Britain's tourist areas competitive with foreign tourist areas, we are left with the negative course of imposing the currency restrictions, ostensibly as a temporary measure, which has proved ineffective in operation and dangerous in encouraging reciprocal restrictions on our own tourist trade from other countries. In the past year, following our short-lived efforts, there has, for a number of reasons, been a temporary halt in British travel abroad, but the outward tide has started to flow once again.
I come now to Part III of the Bill, which deals with the registration of tourist accommodation. This was no part of the recommendation put forward by the British Travel Association. To understand this problem it is necessary to identify registration, classification and grading of accommodation. Registration is simply a Domesday Book. It would be an enormous task in the first instance, and by itself would be valueless so far as the tourist trade is concerned. Classification is a second stage, being based on physical amenities such as lifts, number of bathrooms, night porters, garages and

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so forth in each registered hotel. Unfortunately, here again the result is of little value to the traveller, because a dirty, badly run hotel may have lots of lifts, while a charming, clean and hospitable inn, but with the bathroom down the corridor, may lack the amenities necessary to qualify for the higher grades.
Therefore, one comes to the question of grading, which indicates quality, and consequently, when related to price, indicates value; and this demands considerable skill. In an ideal community, it would be very nice to have a concise price list of all hotel accommodation, but before embarking on such an undertaking it is necessary to consider both the cost and the need which may exist. A full grading scheme would need to be progressively introduced and in the first year might cost about £250,000. Logically, such a scheme would have to be expanded until finally it included all forms of accommodation. It would have to be kept up to date and a considerable staff of high-grade and scruplously honest inspectors would be needed for this purpose. To maintain such a scheme would be exceedingly expensive, and if all accommodation, including caravans and camping sites, were to be included—and it is logical that they should be—the annual cost might be as high as £2 million.
As regards the need, your Lordships may individually like to carry a guide book which will indicate the quality and value of the hotels and even restaurants along the route, but here again we come to the problem of individual experience, which can be so misleading. The mass of travel to-day is planned and sold by experts and the traveller himself or herself increasingly prefers to be given detailed itineraries and not to be bothered with the planning. There is therefore considerable doubt whether the cost of a grading scheme would be justified by the benefits to be obtained from it. Already specialised guide books exist in considerable quantity, covering the whole of Great Britain, each aimed at its particular user, including the agent who plans the tours. My own view is that all these adequately meet the case.
Thus far I have called your Lordships' attention to the operational and organisational problems related to the develop-
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ment of tourism in terms of this Bill. There is, however, a field of equal importance in respect of the people who have done such an outstanding job, in some cases over very many years. First, there are the members of the Board and of its committees, who have given unstintingly of their time and wisdom and their experience to guide the Association, and this without payment. Some, but I hope not all, of them may now leave the stage.
Perhaps more important still, there is the staff. The Association employs rather more than 280 people in Britain and about 150 to man its 24 overseas offices. Some of these have given a lifetime of service to the nation in this work, others are in mid-career with all the responsibilities that that involves and yet others are newly emerging trainees. It is to be hoped and expected that the new Authority will see fit to take advantage of their knowledge and experience and continue their employment, but there is always the possibility that some will be declared redundant. Can I ask Her Majesty's Government for an assurance that any such will be dealt with fairly and indeed generously, bearing in mind the service which they have given? Can the payments be at least as good as would apply in a nationalised industry? Finally, the enactment of this Bill will lead to the dissolution of the British Travel Association, which now has some 4,000 members. I am sure that I shall be echoing the wishes of your Lordships in expressing most sincere thanks to all of those people who have built up and supported this trade.
To sum up, my Lords, I believe that the principles behind this Bill are right. The machinery proposed, however, appears to admit political considerations in the handling of a commercial problem. The four independent Boards will have to work in close harmony. This seems to be the Government's intention, but in its present form the Bill lacks the provision of adequate means to ensure that this will be the case. I am convinced that the Hotel Development Incentives Scheme is essential if we are to have sufficient accommodation throughout the country to house our visitors, and I strongly applaud the indication in the Bill that financial support for further tourist amenities may be

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forthcoming. I have doubts about the value of a national scheme for the registration, classification and grading of hotels hut, above all, I believe, first, that this Bill is wrong in placing the tight hand of the Civil Service around the throats of those who are trying, with no mean success, to increase the flow of visitors to this country; and secondly, that whatever money is required to support the objectives of the Bill, none should be withdrawn from the cost of at least maintaining the existing overseas effort. Finally, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Brown, most sincerely on behalf of my staff and the Association for the kind remarks that he made about them, and for the particular reference to myself.
4.52 p.m.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE: My Lords. may I begin by apologising for missing my noble friend's opening speech because I became entangled in a local railway strike. I did not miss the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and I heard with great interest the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Geddes. I should like to make a comment or two on those two speeches. There was very little in Lord Drumalbyn's searching series of questions with which I should differ. There are many questions to be answered in detail as to how things will be worked out. I do not think the noble Lord asked any questions that my noble friend will find it difficult to answer.
On the question of staff, I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, that I have twice in my lifetime been connected with a body which was wound up—of one I was the chairman, and of the other a member. In each case we were extremely worried about our staff, but in each case in the end they did extremely well. I think everybody in this House will hope that this will be so in this instance.
We are all agreed as to the importance of the tourist business, both for keeping people here and for bringing visitors in. This makes it an easy task for me to welcome the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Geddes, pointed out that most people think they know all about the tourist business. Actually, I do not think I
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know a great deal about it. There is one particular aspect in which I have some interest, which I shall come to in a minute. In general, I think the main provisions of Parts I and II have been well covered by the two previous speakers, and I shall say little about them, except that it is perfectly clear to me that the Government's intention is that the Tourist Authority, with its national junior partner, should work with full cohesion. If the Bill does not make this clear, I feel that there is a lot to be made of this issue in Committee. Nobody could wish to see them going different ways. It is clear that there must be a measure of cohesion, and the question is whether it should be made statutory or he left to the good sense of the people who are appointed. But that is something we can argue later.
The introduction of grants for new investment and selected financial assistance for certain projects is surely something very important. In the discussions in the other place, its importance seemed to me to be very much underplayed, as the arguments were used as an excuse for attacking S.E.T. Whatever our views about S.E.T. may be, this does not seem to be the moment to discuss them. If the people who claim that the hotel industry has had a mortal blow are right, then they must all the more welcome the giving hack with the other hand what seems to me is potentially very generous assistance. I think this is a matter of great importance; and one of the main things is that it will give the British Tourist Authority the surest way to influence people to make friends—the ability to hand out cash. Though it will be done, presumably, by the Government, I think it will be done on the authority and sponsoring of the Tourist Authority.
Part III of the Bill is the Part that I chiefly want to talk about, and here I am disappointed to find that I differ somewhat from the noble Lord, Lord Geddes. I will not attempt to conceal from your Lordships that in giving my unqualified approval to this scheme I am supported by my colleagues on the Consumer Council. It would, in fact, be idle for me to conceal this from your Lordships, because in his opening speech on the Second Reading of the Bill in the other place the President of the Board of Trade made reference to it. I hope the fact that my own personal view is

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reinforced by this knowledgeable and expert body, with which I happen to be connected, will not get me into trouble with my colleagues for speaking in this respect as a paid advocate, or with the Opposition for on this occasion giving my support to the Government.
On this Part of the Bill, it is important that any register should be factual and up-to-date. As the noble Lord said, this involves some kind of inspection, for which the Bill makes provision, though whether it need be as costly as was suggested, personally I doubt. Clearly it must be the British Tourist Authority that lays down the criteria on which any classification is based, but I think there is general agreement now among most people that this should not be of a kind which evaluates comfort or cuisine. I would as soon myself have my dinner chosen by the President of the Board of Trade as by anybody in the country, but I do not think one wants to incorporate this in any way into a statutory document; and I think it is undesirable that an official register should be in any form an arbiter of the case. We have the Egon Ronny Guide and the Good Food Guide, and probably others which exist already, and the existence of a classified register would make their work very much easier and more comprehensive. People who want gustatory advice can go to commercial and independent bodies of this kind, which I think on the whole is the right thing.
The necessity for a single register on which reliance can be placed is shown by the confusion of information available to-day. There are a number of guides which can be consulted, and one particular guide says that a special hotel has 74 rooms, including 26 private bathrooms. Another gives the same details, but adds the fact that there are also 13 public bathrooms. Another has the same details about public and private bathrooms, but splits the number of rooms into 20 single and 54 double. Another says that the hotel has 26 bathrooms, and puts the number of bedrooms at 75. There are a number of variations on the same theme. As to the prices charged by hotels, three guides give the full price range for bed and breakfast, but the fourth lists only the minimum rate. One gives the full price range of
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daily tariff; another gives the price of daily tariff for one single room only, while another has nothing on this point at all. I think this shows that if anybody wants a guide, it does not at the moment exist in a satisfactory state. I believe that people do want guides, and I think the presence of an effective guide would increase the demand for them.
It has been argued, chiefly by the trade I think, that registration and classification should be on a voluntary basis; and this would have a good deal of support. My own view is that a voluntary system could hardly be made comprehensive, and that it would keep going this kind of unsatisfactory divergence of information which I have just quoted. I do not believe a voluntary system would work, and if we are to have registration I think it will have to be compulsory. It would give the hotel users the certified, factual information that they want to choose a hotel to suit their needs, and, at the same time, would encourage competition and efficient marketing in the trade, which is what we all want.
Other criticisms have been voiced against an official classification; namely, that the resulting guide will be too bulky. That is rather like the argument against the Post Office directory. The answer to it is not the same as in the case of the Post Office one; it is, in fact, that if it happened to be very large we believe that it would be quite unnecessary to have it widely distributed. It will be available to travel agents and people of that kind, and could be used in an extract form for local variations and regional variations. I do not think that the fact that it is very big will mean necessarily that it is going to be wielded by everybody. I think at can be used selectively.
As to cost, my estimates are rather lower than the noble Lord's, but I think that if you cut out the grading side of the business, which I believe you should, £200,000 would be nearer the mark. I know that is only £50,000 difference, but it is still a little better. With the new clause which the Government brought in at the Report stage in another place, giving power to require hotels to display the prices they charge, which is probably the most important thing of all, these two clauses will make a great deal of difference to the customer. There is

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a good deal of discussion about the clause to instruct hotels to show the prices, and that may be discussed further in Committee. It is the custom for hotels to do so abroad, and I think it is entirely desirable.
One more point, with regard to the constitution of the Tourist Boards. I am afraid I am always getting up in your Lordships' House and making this point in one sphere after another, but I feel very strongly that Boards of this kind should contain somebody who has no vested interest but is specifically asked to watch the interests of the customer. My right honourable friend, in his speech moving the Bill's Second Reading, said:
"We will draw their membership from people of experience and ability in tourism, industry, commerce, economics and administration."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 27/2/69; col. 1951.]
My Lords, that is perfectly all right; but I want one of these men to be unconnected with the hotel trade, to be unconnected with the local authorities, and to be specifically asked on his appointment to look after the customer's interest.
Anybody of reasonable intelligence and education can do this. It is always suggested that it is extremely hard to find consumer representation. I do not insist on your going to a consumer body—although you could do worse—but I do think that as individuals on each Board they should be given these specific terms of reference to watch the interests of the customer and nobody else. This is a Bill which in its major part I have hardly touched upon. It is of great importance to the industry. In its third Part, about which I have been mainly speaking. I think it will produce a machinery which will aid tourism very much. Its difficulties and its expense are a little forbidding, but I believe they are worth overcoming, and I commend the Bill to your Lordships for Second Reading.
5.4 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, before offering two restrained cheers by way of welcome to this undistinguished little Bill I, like my noble friend Lord Geddes, have to declare an interest in that I am a director of a shipping company and, therefore, concerned in the carrying of tourists. I naturally welcome the acknowledgement which the Government make in this Bill of tourism's importance to our whole economy. After all, a swing in
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three years of over f100 million in the travel account and in our favour i no mean achievement. But, apart from that, I am afraid that this is a muddled and messy little Bill. This is due, of course, to its devious political history, about which the less said the better.
I am also concerned in the demise of the E.T.A., because I am still a member of the Board, and have had the honour of serving for some years under the chairmanship of Lord Geddes. Lord Geddes and I are like the Roman gladiators of old entering the Coliseum: Morituri te salutant: "Those who are about to die salute you". It would be immodest to speak of ourselves, but the noble Lords who have preceded me have all spoken well of Lord Geddes; and rightly so. I should like to add my words of tribute to the magnificent work he has done over the years as our Chairman. He will be a difficult man to replace.
Your Lordships have to bring thought to the choice of the Chairman of the new Authority. I hope that whoever is appointed will be a man of stature, and not just the victim of a disaster at some particularly poignant by-election. We shall watch both this appointment and the appointments of his colleagues on the various Boards, all of whom are to be paid for what we have all been happy to do "for free". We want to know what sort of people are being taken for this important task. I do not think that they need all be experts. The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, has just read out the terms of reference, and I would not quarrel with them. I myself am not particularly worried if I find that I do not know everything about something, but I do get worried if I find that somebody else is paid for knowing it. These people are going to be paid considerable sums out of a relatively small budget; we hope that they will pull their full weight.
I should like also to add my words of commendation to those of my noble friend Lord Geddes, concerning the work of the B.T.A. staff. They are immensely important, because it is principally abroad that the work is done. I hope that they will not be dragged into the maw of the Civil Service. I hope. too that they will undertake the task of explaining to the travel trade of the world what this Bill is all about, because I

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fear some confusion in the travel trade which is responsible for bringing tourists to this country.
My Lords, I pass from those words of general comment to some of particular anxiety. I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to the confusion which now exists concerning the future of the London Tourist Board, of which I have had the honour to be President since its inception. We want to know—and so do others—what is the future of the London Tourist Board under this Bill. There is also confusion about the future of some of the other regional tourist boards brought about by the introduction at a late stage of the English Tourist Board. There are about a score of these local boards, and the number is increasing.
I do not want to say anything that might sound patronising towards them, particularly as several noble Lords connected with other boards are also to speak, but I suggest, with humility, that the London Tourist Board is in a special position. The other boards have also done excellent work, but London has a special case to put forward. The Board's identity. its method of operation in the future—and indeed its whole existence—now seem to be in jeopardy. There is a danger of the London Tourist Board and its work falling between two stools, between the new Authority and the English Tourist Board. If that is so, I would suggest that this would do an irreparable injury to the whole of our tourist set-up, and I should like to take two or three minutes to explain why. I should like to explain why London should he treated as a special case.
In the first place, the figures speak for themselves. Eighty-five per cent. of all visitors who come to this country spend all or part of their time in London. Compare that—and I know that at this particular moment it is almost high treason to say anything derogatory about Wales—with the 4 per cent. who go to Wales. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brown, that there is perhaps an imbalance here, and we should naturally encourage many people who come to London to go on to other parts of the country. The facts and figures must, however, be faced: that 85 per cent. come to London, and they will continue to come to what they regard as
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the principal magnet of tourism in this country—a city which is gradually becoming the Number one tourist attraction of the world.
Your Lordships may be interested in some of the reasons why this has come about. I would refer to one or two of the less familiar commendations that we receive through our postbag. I am not referring to the obvious tourist attractions of London—Buckingham Palace, the Tower of London, Westminster Abbey, Marks and Spencer and so on. The less obvious one, and one that appears with gratifying frequency, is the friendliness of the people of this city, and of the country as well, in contradistinction to the attitude in some other countries which call themselves tourist countries. Visitors to this country comment on the way in which the people are prepared to put themselves out to be friendly. So the man in the street, who may not know very much about the I.M.F., or the Letter of Intent or the Gnomes of Zurich, is in a position to make his contribution to the nation's economy merely by being polite—as he clearly is—to strangers.
The next point that is made, particularly about London as a tourist centre, is the fact that one can receive better value for money here than in almost any other capital in the world. Few people try to "diddle" visitors in this country. I remember a short while ago travelling off the beaten track in Normandy and being shocked when in a small roadside restaurant I was charged 5 new francs for an an egg. I said, "Five new francs for an egg? Are eggs scarce in this part of Normandy? Surely not." And the reply was, "No, sir. Eggs are not scarce here, but tourists are."
The third point I would mention is the need for increased hotel capacity. There has of course been a sharp uprise in that capacity—an uprise which is increasing; this has been noted with pleasure by potential visitors to London—and foreigners occupy 50 per cent. of the accommodation in London hotels. But the new hotels must have what are euphemistically described as "private facilities" without which it is impossible to "sell" a hotel to a tourist now. I remember seeing in a travel brochure a little while

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ago this ominous remark about a hotel in Kensington:
"The hotel, though old-fashioned, is very comfortable, and all the rooms have hot and cold running water, English style."
My Lords, we must make certain that we have now universal "style", otherwise the people will not come here—and this applies particularly to Americans. They are coming here in increasing numbers and spending £75 a head in London. Their numbers are increasing rapidly, such is the energy and enthusiasm of Americans for travel. In one of the American papers in your Lordships' Library two days ago I picked up this advertisement:
"Enjoy a career packed with action and adventure in strange lands. Join the American Information Service as a combat librarian."
Nothing will stop the Americans from travelling, and even though the noble Lord, Lord Brown, regrets that so many of them come to London, this is a fact. It is the reason why I am drawing attention to the importance of the London Tourist Board. It carries the expertise of the Greater London Council, who have been extremely good to us; of British Railways; British European Airways; the travel trade; the theatre; the River and shops. It has three special functions, and these functions, I think your Lordships will agree, must be maintained. We run three information bureaux—at Victoria, at B.O.A.C. and at the West London Air Terminal. This is a service that is appreciated, and I wish we had the money to increase it; I wish we had the money for three or four new information bureaux, particularly one at Piccadilly Circus. Nevertheless, over 200,000 tourist inquiries were answered in 1968. If your Lordships would only step into Victoria and test the service we give I should be grateful.
Then we run an information and accommodation service for those who have no prior bookings for hotels in London. We dealt with nearly 200,000 guest-nights last year. We also have a service for those who have been stranded owing to the late arrival of aircraft or trains or ships—not, of course, that ships are ever late! We run also the London Convention Bureau, which in five years has produced conventions business to London worth £25 million. This we do on a budget for the Convention Bureau of £11,000 a year. This is a vastly growing
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market. The Bureau has all the necessary contacts and expertise. We have nearly 250 meetings on the files due to be held between now and 1975. That Convention Bureau cannot function without the London Tourist Board, of which it is part. Nor, under the Bill, if I understand it aright, can the London Tourist Board go out and look for business; it cannot promote abroad. But Brighton can. That is written into the Brighton Act 1956. I have nothing against Brighton—it is a splendid place—but if Brighton can go out and get business, why on earth cannot London? We are jointly sponsored, as I say, by the G.L.C., and by the now dying B.T.A. We have an income of about £100,000 a year—£100,000 a year for tourism of London: exactly the same income as has the City of Innsbruck. We need more; but I am not here begging to-day; I am merely drawing your Lordships' attention to what would happen if the London Tourist Board were to be allowed to die.
What in fact is going to happen? It looks to me as if we shall get very much less. Who is going to do all the work now? Who is going to find the money? I hope that the G.L.C. will still help us. Can we look to the English Tourist Board? But that Board will have no responsibility for the development of overseas traffic. That is the B.T.A.'s job now. The new Authority will have no job of inspecting hotels and maintaining standards, as has the B.T.A. now. The new Authority will not be entitled to operate a membership scheme, nor to support us, as the B.T.A. does now.
I ask the noble Lord, Lord Brown, to tell us whether we shall be in a position to introduce a membership scheme of our own and raise revenue through subscriptions. But if the E.T.B.—the English Tourist Board—is empowered to operate a membership scheme (and I am not clear about this) then of course our position in London will be seriously undermined. What commercial interest, London Transport, for instance, or the theatres organisation, or shops, is going to subscribe to two bodies? We shall again fall between two stools.
My Lords, I hope that I have said enough, if not too much, to convince your Lordships that there is a need for a London Tourist Board, or something very like it. At the moment I am only

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asking for the present situation to be clarified. I see a prospect of real confusion here. I do not ask the noble Lord, Lord Brown, to give me an answer to these rather detailed questions at this stage of the Bill, but I would ask him to be good enough to look at what I have said (and if I can be of any help to him I am at his service) and to see whether the position can be clarified at a later stage in the Bill so that there is no confusion.
I am afraid that I have been critical of one or two features of this Bill, and I am critical of certain other features which other noble Lords will wish to develop. Nevertheless, we must support the Bill, obviously, on its general principle.
The noble Lord, Lord Geddes, in the course of his interesting speech, spoke about earlier efforts. He went back to 1951. But I can go back earlier still in the history of our attempts to develop tourism in this country. I remember—just—the "Come to Britain" campaign which was launched as long ago as 1925 by the then President of the Board of Trade, Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister, whom we are very happy to see in his place to-day as Lord Swinton; and grateful we are to him for the campaign that he launched, nearly forty-five years ago, when it was unheard of to think of tourism as part of our economy. He must be proud to see what a lusty scheme he launched. Reading through the debate of that time I came across one remark made by his second in command at the Board of Trade, the then Minister for Overseas Trade and Lord Brown's opposite number in those days. Winding up the debate on this same subject, forty-five years ago, the Minister for Overseas Trade of the day concluded with these words:
"Our tourist industry, skilfully managed and intelligently developed, would make a significant contribution to our economic strength and our intellectual heritage."
My Lords, I should have endorsed those words strongly, even if the Minister who used them had not been my own father.
5.19 p.m.
LORD ARWYN: My Lords, unlike some noble Lords who have spoken earlier, I am not a tycoon in the tourist industry, but I have seen the effect of
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gross inefficiency. The Bill, as I read it, is an attempt to organise the industry. I would regard it as a first step. Much more might have been contained in this Bill if greater emphasis had been laid on the fact that it is an industry, an important foreign currency-earning industry, the success of which depends as much as in any other industry on "shop floor" efficiency. Unfortunately the words "holiday industry" do not seem to gel. My wife and I have enjoyed holiday visits to Morocco more than any other country we have visited, and the reason why we enjoyed them so much was because of our very lucky meeting with a travel courier who had all the qualities required to make one welcome in a foreign country. In comparison with his counterpart in other countries and our own he could be described as the "doyen of the corps of couriers", if such an international corps existed.
In this Bill the Government provide certain "tools" which will facilitate growth by various loans and grants to the industry. The success of the industry will still depend upon individual efficiency on the "shop floor", the hotel staff, local authorities, couriers and bus drivers.
My Lords, I do not intend to make a long speech, but I want to emphasise one facet of tourism which cannot very well be covered in a Bill. I refer to the organised tours to see our historic sites. The Bill deals mainly with accommodation. Having satisfied the need to improve accommodation, and at prices which are comparable with the best provincial hotels on the Continent, we are faced with another test of efficiency—the guided tours. Most people are not able to afford or to choose a personal guide for their family, or a small group of friends. The majority are entirely dependent upon the travel agent who organises the tour, his courier and his driver. I am told that the British Travel Association has a course for those who wish to be employed as couriers, and afterwards they are issued with a badge, which seems very commendable. In ciountries behind the Iron Curtain, and some on this side, badged couriers have a greater official status and authority but they are often suspect. They have a captive audience and they are expected to put over official propaganda. I have

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spoken to foreign tourists who have been conducted around here by a badged official courier, and one experienced traveller told me that all the time they were expecting a dose of official propaganda and therefore were not able to relax and concentrate enough on what was being said. This is an unexpected reaction, but it is worth studying.
I referred earlier to the efficiency of a unique Arab courier. He was a well educated man, and until an accident prevented the use of his right hand he was a qualified dental surgeon. He spoke seven languages and his fluency in English was remarkable. He had great charm and a wide knowledge of his country, its history and its basic philosophy, and so was able to interpret to us the full colour of the life of his people. His observations were objective and dispassionate, and the result was that he awoke in us a deep interest in Morocco and the Moroccan way of life, both in the past and in the present. I quote this personal experience as an illustration of the effect on us, and the pleasant memories such an experience can generate and which can last for many years. As a result, we have recommended many friends and acquaintances to visit Morocco. None of them has been disappointed. It is one of our Government's objectives that visitors to this country should have a similar experience.
How can this experience of ours be repeated in this country, and how many couriers have been properly trained and have the natural ability to create impressions which last on our foreign visitors and make them want to come back and bring their friends with them? I do not know. One can put up with some little discomfort, or even indifferently cooked meals, but tourists seldom come here mainly to eat and to sleep in luxury. They can do that at home. Visitors come here to see our way of life, to be told about our historic buildings, to see the pageants that this country can produce and also the beauty of the countryside. Those who bring their own cars and travel independently can make or mar their holiday according to the way they plan and read their reference books. I am concentrating on parties who travel by coach here in London and all over the country, and who are in the care of a courier supplied by a travel agency.
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So much depends on the courier. This is one department of the "shop floor" to which I referred earlier, and to which the proposed three Tourist Boards must give their special attention. The Arab courier who became a friend of ours is again an example of the ideal courier. He was well paid and carried firm authority, and he could deal with the officious minor official in a devastating way. One could not expect quite the same ferocity of "brush off" here, but there is a need for a new attitude among some of the wardens and custodians of our historic buildings.
On one occasion a minor official in one of our historic buildings was too officious and I happened to overhear him. The courier of the party was very embarrassed and I saw the effect on the faces of his party. I was very angry and I asked the courier what had happened. He told me, and I introduced myself to him and to the warden. The scales were tipped to the other side, to the gratification of the courier, whose prestige was restored, and to his party of foreign visitors. Such examples of bad manners are very damaging. The ugly story is recounted scores of times when the tourists get home. This was one of the occasions when a Welsh temper could be justified.
My Lords, apart from the provisions of this Bill, which I support, I should like to know that it is the intention of the new Tourist Boards to make every effort to ensure that everything is made as easy as possible for our visitors, their guides and bus drivers when they are touring. From what I hear, we have guides who speak English and no foreign language, and others who speak foreign languages but very little English. This also needs re-examination.
There is no reason why all Government Departments concerned cannot issue informative instructions to all minor officials in contact with foreign visitors. The pattern of courtesy which is established in the Palace of Westminster is a good one, and one of which we are proud, but there are too many irritations outside. For instance, I hear that buses are now forbidden to pick up visitors at Old Sanctuary after a visit to the Abbey—visitors are expected to find their way to the Victoria Tower. They are also told to wait outside either of the gates at Hampton Court—the Lion or

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the Trophy Gate. They are not allowed to slow down so that they can photograph the Long Walk at Windsor as they drive across. Easing traffic is a problem, we know, but it is our problem and the way it is tackled should not be at the expense of adding to the discomfort of our foreign visitors.
Again, is it not unfair to our tourists not to be told what monuments are open and on what days? The new Tourist Boards could do this on an international scale. For instance, parties arriving at Easter should be told what is shut and what is open. One instance is Windsor Castle. It does not seem fair for a visitor, having booked a ticket to visit the place, to be told that it is closed because the Royal Family are in residence. An examination of brochures is very necessary and the new Tourist Boards should require all recognised agencies to post up prominently the opening and closing times of the more obvious tourist attractions.
It is necessary to keep in the forefront of the mind of everyone connected with the tourist industry that our need is to earn the maximum foreign currency. We can do two things. The first is to give such satisfaction to every tourist who visits us that he enthuses his friends and relatives when he gets home. The other is to get rid of our stupid insular attitudes towards foreigners. I am not challenging the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, here, but I have seen some rather disgraceful conduct on the part of some of our own people. Others, I agree, are extremely polite and I have not seen much impoliteness in my own country of Wales. If we can get rid of this attitude we can achieve quite a lot. It affects our thinking. One boorish official can wreck much of a holiday; his attitude is never forgotten.
My Lords, my time is running out. I have dealt with just one facet of the problem and one which is very important; otherwise the provisions of this Bill will not ensure the success we need. A clean sweep of the "shop floor" is necessary as well as the reorganisation of "top management". I might be forgiven as a Welshman for not mentioning anything about Wales, especially this week, but I see the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, is down to speak and he knows much more about the whole range of problems which
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will have to be tackled by the new Welsh Tourist Board than I do. I have also resisted the temptation to recall my experiences at Heathrow which coincide with those which Lord Lambton reports in to-day's Evening Standard. My noble friend Lord Brown emphasised the need for repeat visits, so the need to sweep the "shop floor" is obvious—and in many places.
5.33 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I too must declare my interest in this subject. I am President of the English Lakes Counties Travel Association. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, is not in his place, because I should like to pay tribute to the great help we have always received from everyone in his organisation and, not least, help with the translation and distribution of our literature abroad, a service which I hope his successors will continue. I must also declare my financial interest in a hotel in the Lake District. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, is not in his place, because at Question Time the other day he laid great stress on the importance of our declaring our interest in detail. I was going to tell him that this hotel is within 10 miles of where he recently bought a house and I hoped that he might find it useful.
The record of the tourist industry over recent years is really very remarkable and it is right that we should see how it can be helped to do even better. But I am sorry that in my view the Government have come to some very odd conclusions as to how this help should be given. They have fallen back, it seems to me, on the old trick of a package deal where the political part of the deal is accepted by many who are not very much enamoured of it because it includes some "jam" for the smaller man. It is the old trick. We have all seen it played by successive Governments time after time. This time the political part is combined with the possibility of enormous grants for the big operators while the small man, and possibly in some areas more than half those engaged in the industry, will be left out. This seems strange.
The noble Lord has said that this Bill has three Parts, and various noble Lords who have spoken have said that they prefer one Part to another. I had better make it clear that I object to all three.

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So far as Part I is concerned, I feel that it is unfair and unwelcome to sack British Travel so brusquely, and all those who have served the industry so well and for so long: a very British institution which enjoyed the support of the whole industry, working voluntarily and with a small staff. I can never understand why Her Majesty's present Government prefer statutory bodies to voluntary work: we have seen the transfer time and time again. I fear here that we shall see the costs and number of staff going up without any comparable benefit to the industry. It has been put to me that a body of this sort is necessary if any grant and loan scheme is to be efficiently operated, but I do not regard that as convincing, particularly since we hear that the grant and loan scheme is only for the short term.
When we came to Part II of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Brown, skated over it very quickly, as if he was ashamed of it. I have never heard a Minister skate so quickly over a Part of a Bill in which large sums of public money were concerned. And this Part II is extremely important to the Lake District, where to a large extent the industry is in the hands of those who run small businesses. The industry, over some years (and here the previous Government share blame with the present one), has never been allowed a fair tax assessment, the same treatment as other industries, which could have been done and still can be done, by a simple extension of the industrial building allowances. I submit that no grant and loan scheme, with the selection that is inherent in such a scheme, can be a fair substitute, particularly when the majority in the industry will be excluded from sharing in any benefit.
It really is astonishing to read the details of this scheme. First, I feel that it is not a very sound idea that the number of bedrooms alone should be the test in deciding whether or not any particular hotel extension shall attract a grant. It may mean that bedrooms are added to a hotel which already has too few bathrooms. We all know of such cases. I have recently seen two with something like 30 bedrooms and three bathrooms, which is far below the standard any of us would accept; but if five bedrooms were added to one of those hotels, no doubt the proprietor would he able to draw some grant. He
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may be extending the size of the hotel but he is also lowering its standards, which is something I think we should study and look at closely.
But, even more important, smaller businesses, which are the backbone of the hotel industry in this country, will be largely excluded from any benefit under this scheme for grant-aided extensions. An extension must be on a fairly large scale for it to be eligible to attract grant. The addition of five bedrooms, and the other improvements going with those five bedrooms, can be costly. The cost could be £20,000 or £25,000, and we can all think of many small hotels where to find £20,000 is something quite beyond their means. To-day, too. we have a difficult credit situation—and it is not made any easier by the Letter of Intent from Mr. Jenkins to Mr. Schweitzer. We have come a long way from the days when we used to be told that the Socialist Party stood for cheap money and fair shares. They have created a situation to-day where interest rates are little short of usury, and the fair shares they are offering here are large shares for the few big operators and nothing for the small. The smaller men will have to pay their S.E.T. and will have to watch their richer neighbours sharing in this handout, which could even include grams for building extensions or for extending bars. I should have thought it was impossible to lose money on bars and that there could be no conceivable justification for the spending of any public money in this way.
But let us look further. Who is going to qualify in the main under this Bill which Parliament is now being asked to approve? The bigger hotel companies—I will not dispute that. But there are other big financial interests of all kinds, not just big hotel companies, such as oil companies, that will qualify. I must be careful what I say about shipping companies. There will be insurance companies with spare resources, and others, too, who may try to jump on this bandwagon—because the tourist industry is now, in the eyes of some, a bandwagon. People who jump on to bandwagons are never, in the end, of any great service to an industry, because they are just as ready to jump off as they are to move in. Yet, with their greater resources, and with an easier access to credit, they will, so far as I

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can see, be among those who will be drawing the greater part of the sums of money we are making available, the amount of which the noble Lord, Lord Brown, did not in fact venture to estimate. So far as I can see, there is no limit to the size of any one grant, even though the Government have written into the Bill a prudent half a million as the upper limit for any single loan.
There appears a failure to understand, too, that foreigners rate the smaller English hotels of real standard and character far above the big monotonous boxes which are now going up all over Europe. Imagine the cry from noble Lords opposite if we were sitting on that side of the House and they were on this side and we brought forward a proposal that some millions of public money was to be spent in an industry where the few and the larger operators only were to benefit, and the great majority, certainly more than half everywhere, and up to 90 per cent. in some areas will be excluded. That is what Her Majesty's Government are asking us to approve in this Bill; and I hope that during the Committee stage we may see those provisions modified.
What I fear most of all is that as a result of this generous handout the real estate speculators will come back from the Caribbean because they find that they can do better on this side of the water. It is a poor excuse that, as I have heard said, it is impossible at this stage to bring the standard to qualify much lower because it will complicate administration. A few years ago I was one of those who shared responsibility in the Ministry of Agriculture for the Farm Improvements Scheme. There was an organisation there which dealt admirably and easily with a large number of grant-aided schemes and where we took particular pains to ensure that the smaller man not only had his share but often had a little more than his share.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, just to avoid confusion later, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that the hotel with six bedrooms to which it is proposed to add five more would fall within the limits of the hotel grant scheme? Because he is talking as though the grant would go only to the very large hotels.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I am entirely aware of that, and I am also
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aware of the statistics for the Lake District, where the noble Lord will find, if he looks closely enough, that there are a very large number of hotels which are not going to be in a position to take advantage of these schemes. I will go into this in greater detail on the Committee stage. I do not want to take up your Lordships' time now, but I am convinced that what I have said is fully justified. But if the noble Lord foresees difficulty in administering a more generous scheme, I would beg him to seek advice from the Ministry of Agriculture, who have for many years been working such a scheme without difficulty.
I think Part III is unnecessary, because the work is in fact being done at this very time. In my hand I have a provisional register of accommodation over about 2½ counties in England. This is its first edition, produced this year. It has been greatly welcomed. There are, admittedly, some gaps, but by next year I hope that those gaps will be filled. Hence I would say it is quite unecessary to embark on an expensive operation to record a lot of detailed information which voluntary and regional bodies are prepared to do on their own.
My Lords, we have all agreed that there is need for some help for this industry at this time, and I think we are agreed too that it is wrong to oppose the Second Reading, because this Bill, for all its unfairness and it shortcomings, is capable of amendment during the Committee stage. I hope I am right in thinking that there is to be a supplementary Committee stage as it were, on the Floor of the House as well as before the Select Committee to which reference was made earlier. I hope that the Government will be receptive to practical Amendments, because I fear that, if not, many of us who have helped to give this Bill a Second Reading to-day will oppose it when it comes to its Third Reading.
5.45 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, we are becoming so conscientious in declaring our interest that perhaps I should begin by saying that I am a director of Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, in Fleet Street, where we are happy to entertain a number of tourists. But I do not think I am promoting my interests in what I wish to say to your Lordships this afternoon, because I wish to talk particularly

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about the problems of tourism in Wales. I think it particularly appropriate to do so at this moment, when the Prince of Wales is making a triumphant tour of his own Principality, and, I hope, encouraging many others to follow in his Royal footsteps.
My noble friend Lord Geddes said that Great Britain is not different from England, Scotland and Wales. I entirely agree. But I would respectfully say that England, Scotland and Wales are different from Great Britain. Wales has very special characteristics, and its problems differ from those of other constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Naturally in some respects its problems are similar to those of Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the similarity goes only so far; and I need only point out to your Lordships the fact that Wales has its own living language, which is a factor that cannot be ignored in tourism.
In my opinion, the Wales Tourist Board in its relatively brief existence has done an absolutely first-class job, despite the fact that it has worked on short funds. Among its significant achievements is the research study published earlier this year, on Tourism in Wales. This is a most comprehensive and interesting document which analyses the present situation and sets guide lines for the future, and I would like to convey warm congratulations to the Chairman and the members of the Board on its production. I would urge any of your Lordships who are interested in this matter to have a look at it. It would he foolish of me to try to sum up such a comprehensive Report in a few minutes, but I should like just to try and indicate the main conclusions that it reaches.
The first point I would make is the vital importance of tourism to Wales. In the South, in the industrial areas, obviously the objective is to introduce more, and yet more, varied industry in place of the old iron and steel and coal industries. But in other large parts of Wales, which are not altogether suitable for industry, tourism is the main hope of money earning in future. I should like to tell my noble friend Lord Mancroft, that in 1968 Wales earned over £85 million from tourism; and in Europe only Switzerland and Austria earned more than that per head of the popula-
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tion. Yet the average spending by visitors in Wales is, unfortunately, one of the lowest in Europe. The reason is not far to find—it is made quite clear in the Report: that over one-half of the tourist beds in Wales are in caravans, and many of the others are in cheap holiday accommodation. The result is that the typical holidaymaker in Wales spends £16 and stays 10 days. Moreover, he probably comes from the Midlands or the North-West of England, so that, out of the £85 million spent on tourism in Wales, only some £5 million comes from overseas visitors. Yet, unfortunately, it appears likely that the British domestic market will remain static, if indeed it does not contract. This is obviously what one would expect. with the number of holidays that are taken abroad; and the prospect, if no more, that the £50 limit may be raised at some point will obviously aggravate this problem. The conclusion reached by the Report is that Wales must get into exports; she must develop more overseas traffic. Here lies the importance of this Bill to Wales.
Before I actually consider the Bill itself in its relation to Wales, I should like to make quite clear that we cannot rely entirely on the Bill: we must set our own house in order and raise our standards. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, will agree with me here, as we had a mutual experience earlier this week. The Investiture was a very fine tourist attraction, but the state of the lavatories at Caernarvon station came as a rude shock to departing diplomats. The noble Baroness and I had to travel down on a public train, the 10.35 from Euston to Holyhead—a five-hour journey in the middle of the day—and evidently a popular train, on which there was one buffet car manned by one attendant, who had to cut every slice of bread and butter and put ham on it. And the queues had to be seen to be believed. This sort of thing cannot possibly be an inducement or encouragement to tourism.
So far as the Bill is concerned, I have no doubt that the statutory Board will have an easier task than the present Wales Tourist Board. It will have a guaranteed budget, and that will make forward planning easier. I should like again to pay a tribute—I have already done so once—to the present Board

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because their task was made more difficult by the fact that the Chairman and the General Manager had to spend a great deal of their time on raising funds. But no doubt the effectiveness of the envisaged statutory Board will ultimately depend on its financial resources. One advantage that is foreseen and hoped for is that it will be possible to establish regional offices to give full rein to regional initiative. The kind of plan in mind is to establish offices where the staff salaries and the expenses of the office would be paid by the Board, and they would then be free to raise funds locally for local tourism promotion.
The grants and loans under Part II of the Bill are also welcome in Wales, and no one would wish to look a gift horse in the mouth. Certainly they will encourage the provision of new hotels and the improvement of existing hotels, which is badly needed in Wales if we are to encourage more tourists from overseas. In saying that, I would certainly agree with what my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn said, and I personally should prefer to see the inducement the other way round. I should prefer the Government to remove the penal taxation, restore tax allowances, and allow private enterprise to do the job. But within the scope of the Bill, these grants are welcome.
I have one real worry—it is the same as that of my noble friend Lord Mancroft—arising out of the very restrictive wording of Clause 2(2), which lays down that:
"… only the British Tourist Authority shall have power … to carry on any activities outside the United Kingdom for the purpose of encouraging people to visit Great Britain or any part of it, …"
Nobody wants a free-for-all. It would be quite ridiculous if each Board carried on its own activities overseas. There must be co-ordination of normal holiday promotion overseas, and the British Tourist Authority will have an advantage in advertising a package deal to four different countries. All this is right and proper. But what we object to is the very restrictive wording of this clause which excludes completely any form of promotion by the Wales Board of special visits to Wales, on special Welsh occasions, by Welsh people from overseas.
I mentioned earlier the importance of the Welsh language. There are many
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Welsh societies overseas, members of which are anxious to revisit Wales but who have no interest in general tourism, and the present Welsh Tourist Board enjoys a close relationship with these Welsh societies overseas, particularly in North America and Commonwealth countries. It advertises in Welsh language publications overseas, and this support is often vital to those publications, as well as engendering a constant flow of visitors. I might mention, as an example, that this year the Board brought to Cardiff over 700 members of American and Canadian Welsh Societies for an historic gymanfa ganu (the noble Lord, Lord Arwyn, will perhaps correct my pronunciation if it is not as good as it should be)—but it was a singing society which met in Cardiff and went on to Caernarvon. This kind of visit, similar to a visit that could be arranged to the National Eisteddfod, or simply private visits, goes on, year in. year out, in considerable numbers, and these relationships will be wrecked if the Wales Tourist Board is not allowed to undertake any kind of promotion overseas. I am sure that the British Tourist Authority does not want to start corresponding in Welsh with the citizens of Patagonia; nor do the citizens of Patagonia wish to correspond with the British Tourist Authority.
What is to happen to the professional side of Welsh tourist promotion? This year the Board produced an admirable Guide for the Travel Trade available in time for the trade workshops in America, and giving every possible detail of professional interest to travel agents. Will this be absorbed into a much larger and less easier to handle volume covering the whole of the United Kingdom? I hope not.
This year the Secretary of State for Wales was given responsibility for tourism, but he does not seem to me to have very much power if he has no funds. What we would ask is that he should have the right to allocate money to the Wales Tourist Board for overseas publicity and promotion specifically in the interests of Wales alone if, in his opinion, such action is needed to supplement the work of the British Tourist Authority. If I understood the noble Lord, Lord Brown aright, we ask only that, on overseas promotion, Wales should be in the same relationship to the British

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Tourist Authority as are Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or, as my noble friend Lord Mancroft said, Brighton. I repeat, we have no quarrel with the general principle of co-ordination of overseas activity, but the present clause is much too restrictive, and I hope that it will be amended in Committee.
5.59 p.m.
LORD GISBOROUGH: My Lords, I was very sorry to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, was in trouble with his egg, because I have just come back from driving 2,000 miles in France and I must say I had no troubles at all like that. One inevitably had good food and wine and so on. But when one came back to this country and drove up North one had no doubt that there is probably nowhere in the world where there is so much variety of scenery, and where so many living examples of history can be found in such a small area, or where there are such good roads. As a tourist "sell" there is no question but that England is a first rate product. The British Travel Association have had great success in selling our product, and, as an example, the increase in United States' spending in the United Kingdom from 1963 to 1968 was exactly double the increase in United States' spending in Western Europe. The British Travel Association have perfected very highly-sophisticated techniques, but they have inevitably been stretched by lack of finance, where something should be done.
Many of the objects of this Bill are admirable, but it does not go about achieving those objects in the right way. Three million pounds is now paid by the Government to one authority, the British Travel Association, whereas, so far as I can make out, there will be £3,500,000 paid to four bodies which will have paid members. Most of the £3 million which is spent at the moment can be used on promotion, but if the £3,500,000 is to go to four bodies there will be much less money available for that, since more money will be required for overheads, salaries and so on.
Furthermore, I believe that these four bodies will come under different Ministers, and I do not believe that the co-ordinating machinery between them
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will be adequate. It could result in different grading systems or plans for England, Scotland and Wales, which would be most unfortunate. It would be much better to keep the existing organisations and to strengthen them with more money and powers, with the Board of Trade as the authority for dealing with grants for hotels. In addition, I should like to know whether the small tourist areas, such as Tees-side and the North-East, will he adequately represented on the large English Board.
Undoubtedly, a lot of money is needed for improvements to hotels, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, said, this Bill will help the large hotels and not the mass of small, up-graded inns, which are so attractive to stay in. Very often, they have only one or two rooms and are probably much more suitable for the broad mass of students and others from the Continent who do not have a lot of money to spend and cannot afford to stay in the large, expensive hotels. However, there is no doubt that more roams are needed. I was interested in the fact that the Travel Association were not able to sell the Investiture to the world as a tourist attraction because there are only four rooms with private baths available in hotels in Caernarvon.
If there has been any inadequacy on the part of the Travel Association it has been due to lack of money, and I do not think it is necessary to scrap an association of that kind. One might ask whether the money which it has had has paid good dividends. In 1967 there were 4·3 million visitors and they spent £235 million, at a cost of running the B.T.A. of £3 million, which works out at about 15s. a visitor, with each visitor spending on average about £50. Could it be said that those visitors would have come here regardless of the promotion? I do not think it can, because in 1967-68 money was diverted from promoting in other countries and was concentrated on Germany. The result of that concentration was an immediate upsurge of visitors from Germany of 21 per cent. So promotion is obviously fully justified, and the £3 million should not be looked upon as a grant to the Travel Association but as an investment—and, for what it is worth, an investment yielding 7,833 per cent. per annum, which really is not bad.

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But there is a great deal more that could be done, provided that money is available, not only to attract tourists to the United Kingdom but to cater for them when they get here. One could not help noticing that in every town in France there is a tourist office. The office is very well signposted, from whichever direction one comes, and it has a part-time staff and someone who speaks English. If money is provided that is something which should be available in England to help encourage foreigners. We have at least one booklet giving caravan and camping sites and farmhouse accommodation, but, owing to lack of funds, it is available only in English.
There is an inadequate private accommodation list. It would be nice if, for example, a doctor from France knew that he could get in touch with another doctor in, say, Westmorland, to spend his holidays there. That is something which could be followed up. There are hundreds of excellent guides in English, but there is no comprehensive Michelin guide. I believe that through S.E.T. relief many more hotels could be encouraged to have multi-lingual receptionists, since their number at the moment is comparatively few in this country.
We probably produce the best booklets obtainable anywhere, and there is an extremely good one covering Tees-side and Cleveland, but they are in English only, because it is uneconomic locally to have them translated. I think that local authorities should be much more foreign-tourist conscious, and should be made more responsible for the comfort and welcome of foreigners in their areas. In America there are boards at the entrances to their National Parks, giving the history of the Parks and a description of the wild life. This could be followed up in all languages for all visitors. There are many more ideas. I think there should be cheaper petrol for foreigners, to encourage them to come here, and we should even try to find for them the many shops which offer discounts.
All these ideas require money, and at the moment there is not enough. But I believe that the new Bill will reduce the amount of money available for promotion of tourism, since more money will have to be spent on the organisation of the four new bodies. I should like to
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see the British Travel Association kept on, with all its voluntary membership, together with the regional boards, because they cover manageable areas. I think that the English Tourist Board covers too big an area, and the regional boards should be strengthened with more cash to help them cater for the needs of the ever-increasing number of tourists.
I should like to see the hotels being helped not by grants but by a reduction of S.E.T., which is prohibitive. If nothing else, I think that the S.E.T. which they pay should be channelled into the promotion of tourism, and that the tax rebates allowed should be improved. To my mind, this Bill represents the creation of more dreary and expensive statutory Boards. It diverts money from promotion to overheads and offices, and rather on the lines of what the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, said, to some extent it is a millionaires' charter for the improvement of hotels.
6.9 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I did not expect to speak on this Bill at all, but coming up in the train I had nothing better to do, and as I happened to have this Bill in my briefcase I decided to read it. I was very surprised—I might almost say horrified—because I thought "Well, here we go again." I know that we have a Socialist Government, and that we must therefore expect Socialist legislation. But it is most dispiriting that Her Majesty's Government, a Socialist Government, never seem to learn by their past mistakes. We now have this Development of Tourism Bill, which is really the most blatant piece of Socialist legislation. How often have we seen this before? This Socialist Government—Her Majesty's Government—tax an industry. They tax it as hard as they can, and then they say, "You now need help", and they proceed to offer grants. To my way of thinking this is a way to backdoor nationalisation, although I quite agree that it would be rather farfetched to say that in the case of this Bill because it lays down that this is a temporary expendient.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, if the noble Viscount will forgive me for interrupting, may I ask whether he would apply this to agriculture?
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, agriculture is an entirely different matter. I can speak to the noble Lord for hours on agriculture; but, of course, in agriculture we have not appointed three Boards and an Authority. Subsidies to agriculture come through the Minister of Agriculture. And agriculture requires those subsidies, because the Government (I am afraid this must be very boring for noble Lords on this side of the House) say to the farmer, "You have to compete with grain coming in from the Argentine, where they pay their workers 10s. a week; you must pay your workers £1,000 a year, and you have to produce the cheapest food in Europe". Therefore, there must be subsidies—but I must not be side-tracked on to that topic.
My Lords, we are now to have this Authority and these three Boards. I do not want to deprive the hotel industry of any help—for goodness sake, no!—but the tourist industry is an expanding industry, and to my way of thinking apart from agriculture one should give subsidies only to declining industries. Of course, you have to pick your declining industry very carefully. You certainly would not give a subsidy to an industry building sailing ships. You should give subsidies only to a declining industry with a future, so I view with certain misgivings this Government Bill to subsidise an expanding industry, the tourist industry. Though I have no real knowledge of the hotel industry (I suppose I should not be speaking at all, really) I belong to that most excellent body the British Travel Association, and I am really very distressed that, under this Bill, it appears that that body is to be no more, because under the excellent chairmanship of Lord Geddes it has done the most sterling work for tourism. The only interest I have in tourism is that for three days a week in the summer I have my gardens and grounds open for tourists. So I have a slight interest, but I have nothing to do with hotels at all.
It rather amused me when the noble Lord, Lord Brown, said—I hope I do not misquote him—that the hotel industry, the tourist industry, needs stimulating. His means of stimulating it is to put it under the dead hand of bureaucracy. Really, I deplore that. I
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thought my noble friend Lord Aberdare made a very good point on subsection (2) of Clause 2, when he referred to the fact that the British Tourist Authority is to be the only body allowed to promote the activities of tourism outside this country, to attract tourists to this country. Is it really necessary for them to have that monopoly?
I should like to point out, as I think some other noble Lords already have, that if only the Government would take S.E.T. off hotels and restore the investment allowances, then from my calculations the hotel industry would have £30 million from S.E.T.—I think my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn said £28 million, but I make it more like £30 million—and an extra £20 million if they had their investment allowances restored. That is about £50 million in all. There appears to be some difficulty as to the amount of capital that the Government, the proposed Authority, are going to put back into the hotel industry. One noble Lord said £3 million and other noble Lords have mentioned other figures. I thought it was to be about £8 million. Suppose it is £8 million. If one compares that with the £30 million a year from S.E.T. and the investment allowances, it is really very small cheese. But, my Lords, what I am frightened of is this. It is true that this is supposed to be a temporary expedient, but one's experience of Government Boards and financial aid is that the amount of aid increases and increases. In a few years' time we may well see that it is £20 million, and then it may be £30 million. It is rather like a snowball, it increases and increases once you get Government aid; and the poor taxpayer has to pay. It goes on ad infinitum.
I should like briefly to mention the case of Scotland. In Scotland we have the Highlands Development Board The Highlands Development Board are enabled to give capital (and in fact have done so) for hotels. In fact, they have just given over £300,000 for the construction of an hotel in the West of Scotland. Surely there is some overlapping here. If we have the Highlands Development Board, do we really need this other Board for Scotland? It would appear to be rather superfluous. Another thing is that now we are to have these three Boards and the Authority. I do not want to be rude, but, of course, this means what is

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vulgarly called "more jobs for the boys". It is the poor taxpayer who has to provide the money, and all your Lordships are taxpayers.
My Lords, I have prepared no speech, but I should like to refer to Part III, which provides for the registration of tourist accommodation, and grading. Is this really necessary? We heard the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, say that he certainly did not think that registration of tourist accommodation was necessary, and I think the noble Lord also said that grading was unnecessary. We have these excellent published guides. Why do Her Majesty's Government want to compile this register? Have they some sinister motive? It seems completely unnecessary. I cannot see the point of it at all. I should like the Minister to answer that point, because it seems superfluous.
The other point that I should like to make—and it has been brought out before—is that if the hotel industry is to have these subsidies it will be, as one noble Lord said, a case of "jam for the big man". That is quite true. In many of the rural areas (and I am particularly thinking of the Western Highlands) there are a great number of inns and very small hotels which will get no benefit at all from this Bill. So far as I can see, this Bill is going to help only the multi-millionaire hotel owner. Perhaps I have the figure wrong, but I was rather surprised to hear one noble Lord say that only one-seventh of the number of holidays were spent in hotels. But of course the Bill is not confined to dealing with hotels. It also refers to help to be given to promote tourist amenities, such projects as the ski resort at Aviemore. I think there is probably something to be said for helping such projects.
My Lords, one of the reasons why I do not like this Bill is that it is socialistic legislation; the taxpayer is going to have to pay. If we are to have legislation to help the hotel industry, I should prefer to have a Bill that really helped the small man. I am surprised that the hoteliers, especially in the London area, really need financial help. I should have thought that they could have obtained ample finance to-day; although it is true that, owing to a Labour Government, this nation has had, over the longest period, the highest Bank rate in its history. But, even dis-
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counting that, I am rather surprised that I it is the big man who is to be helped. Another reason why I do not like the Bill is that it creates a proliferation of boards. I should have thought that in Scotland, with the Highlands and Islands Board, this was unnecessary. I hope that in the Committee stage some Amendments will be put down to enable us to help the really small man.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that a hotel with 10 letting bedrooms is quite a small one?
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, that is true; but there are lots of hotels smaller than that. There are a large number of inns in the wild, rural areas which I think might be helped; because I am quite sure that some tourists would prefer to go to a small inn, where they get the atmosphere of the country, rather than to go to the Hilton Hotel, where they might as well be back in New York.
6.24 p.m.
LORD CROWTHER: My Lords, the noble Viscount resisted in part the temptation to be diverted into the problems of agriculture, and I hope that he will forgive me if I, in turn, resist the almost irresistible temptation to follow him into some of his economic doctrines, particularly this rather startling one that only the declining industries should be subsidised—a doctrine which, if carried out to its logical conclusion, would mean that we should finish up with only declining industries. Sometimes one thinks that per-Imps that is what two generations of Government intervention have resulted in.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I said that the declining industries had to be carefully chosen. For instance, it is perfectly right to subsidise our shipbuilding industry, which is a great industry in this country and has had hard times; but, as I said, it would be madness to subsidise an industry to build sailing ships.
LORD CROWTHER: My Lords, I shall carry out my original intention of resisting the temptation to follow the noble Viscount in these matters.
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, prefaced his remarks by saying that we were

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being meticulous to-day in declaring our interests. I am not being meticulous at all. I have a very large and direct interest in this Bill; I am the chairman of a company which has already in the last ten years invested many millions of pounds in providing modern hotel accommodation for tourists and others in this country. We have clone it in England, in Scotland, in Wales and in Northern Ireland. Moreover, what is more to the point, we have every intention of applying for very substantial sums of grant under Part II of the Bill. Your Lordships may therefore perhaps not find it surprising if I say that I speak in favour of giving this Bill a Second Reading. But I do so for one reason, and one reason only; and that is the one mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brown, in moving the Second Reading. This is the first time that any Government have proposed to do anything of any significance at all to assist the tourist trade and hotel industry. That deserves some support.
Having said that, I fear that I have almost exhausted my praise for this Bill; because it is this same Government who have another distinction in relation to the tourist trade and hotel industry; it is this same Government who have also in the course of their life done very much more to damage that industry than any other Government in the history of this country. Here again I must resist the temptation to expand on the details; but when, some months ago, we had a debate in this House on invisible exports and sonic of us ventured to catalogue some of the ways in which this Government have rained blows upon this particular exporter, the answer we received from the noble Lord, Lord Brown, was that he had been interested to observe in the course of the debate that some people did not like paying taxes.
To those of us who are engaged in the hotel industry that remark qualifies as almost the most unfeeling remark since Marie Antoinette advised the starving ladies of Paris to eat cake. Indeed, it confirmed a suspicion that I have had for some time, that the Government still do not know what they have done to this industry; that they have never paused to add up the cumulative effect of all the measures they have taken. I am therefore going to ask permission to quote a few figures from my own company's
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experience. Perhaps I ought to apologise for that. Certainly I do not put them forward as being a special case. I have no reason to believe that our experience is anything other than typical of that of the industry. I quote them for the obvious reason that they come most readily to my hand.
I had an estimate made of all the taxes and compulsory charges that my company has to pay. I do not mean only the corporation tax or the profits tax and income tax as it used to be—the figures on the annual balance sheet of taxation; I mean all the taxes and compulsory charges levied upon us. I found that in 1965 all those taxes amounted to 46·9 per cent. of the trading profits out of which they had to be paid; whereas in 1968 the figure was 76·1 per cent. Indeed, had it not been for one or two quite technical and temporary provisions arising out of overpayment of tax in earlier years—if it had been in those respects a normal year—the figure would have been 81·6 per cent. In other words, the burden of taxation on this industry has been raised in three years from 47 per cent. to 82 per cent. Moreover, that is on rising pre-tax profits; that is not merely the impact of a stable tax charge on falling profits; the actual sum of money paid over has multiplied three times in three years.
That is not the end, my Lords, because since those figures were calculated we have had another bout of S.E.T. We have had increases in purchase tax, which we, alone of the industries in this country, have to pay upon the tools of our trade; and we are threatened with another increase in the rate of National Insurance contributions which seems to grow every time the Secretary of State directs his mind to the subject. To turn my figures round, the increase in taxation from 47 per cent. to 81 per cent. is another way of saying that the balance of funds available for remunerating the capital and for reinvesting in new hotels has fallen from 53 per cent. of the total to 18 per cent. I suggest, quite seriously, that when that sort of thing is done to any industry, it is not legitimate economic policy; it borders on tyranny. Indeed, when it is done to an industry which is one of the country's largest earners of foreign currency, it does not border on, it crosses the line into, lunacy. Perhaps I

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have said enough to explain why in relation to this Bill I cannot even summon up those two qualified cheers that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, thought fit to accord it. One cheer, and that a very muted and pallid cheer, is, I am afraid, all that I can manage.
For those of us who are in the industry this Bill has so many aspects that were I to say everything I want about it I should detain your Lordships far into the night. I shall therefore try to confine myself to two or three points arising out of direct experience in the industry which have not, I think, had the attention they deserve in the discussions on this Bill, either in another place or in your Lordships' House to-day. Let me take, first, Part I, the Part of the Bill that dismisses the British Travel Association and erects in its place four statutory Boards. I do not intend to rehearse all of what I might call the general arguments against that procedure which have been heard at some length. I want to give a very special and direct reason why I deplore this. I deplore it, my Lords, because it seems to me that it is an abdication by the Board of Trade of their proper responsibilities. The object of the Bill is to secure a rapid increase in the number of hotel rooms available for foreign tourists. The grant given under Part II of the Bill will certainly help in that respect, but there is something else that would help very much more, that would produce many more rooms much more quickly; and that I shall attempt to explain.
If your Lordships were to ask why the investment in hotels in this country has not been progressing as rapidly as the arrival of foreign tourists to occupy those hotels, the answer would be that the major reason is not lack of money or lack of profitability; the major reason is the monstrous thicket of controls of all kinds which it takes enormous energy, perseverance, and a very large admixture of good fortune, to penetrate. Let me particularise, because I find that nobody who has not actually tried to build a new hotel in this country has any idea of how difficult it is. First of all, the land has to be found. The criteria for the site of a successful hotel are very exacting. It is not true that every piece of land will do. It must be a piece of land that meets very technical and varied
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requirements. There is a saying in the hotel trade in America that three things are necessary for the success of a hotel project: the first is location; the second is location and the third is location. The point is that you must first of all find the perfect location.
Moreover, you must find it at a limited price. We are always told, and quite rightly (my company, and I think other companies in the industry are doing their best to accomplish this), that the need is for modern accommodation at moderate tariffs; and so it is. But if you are to provide that, you cannot pay too much for your land. As a very rough rule-of-thumb calculation the figure should be about £400 per room, and that does not add up to very much in terms of price per acre; so you must find your perfect site at a price that you can pay. If there is any noble Lord left who believes that betterment levy and capital gains lax have not put up the price of land, he had better come out with me and my professional colleagues the next time we are trying to find a site.
After you have got your site you must go for planning consent, and here again I doubt whether any noble Lord has any idea just how difficult that is. The Government may think that it is in the public interest that there should he a great increase in the number of hotel rooms, but planning officers up and down the country do not; or at least they do not believe it is right to provide them in the places which those who will be responsible for making money out of the hotel rooms know to be the right places. Almost every planner will encourage the provision of an hotel to adorn some grandiloquent town centre plan that he has, but that is not where hotels ought to be. The natural, the inevitable, place for a hotel in this motor age is overlooking, or close to, one of the intersections of a motorway. That is as inevitable to-day as it was to build outside a railway station a hundred years ago. But the intersections of motorways are almost invariably in Green Belt areas, so you almost always start with a refusal of planning consent about which you then have to appeal to the Minister. I must say here and now that when we do appeal to the Minister, we receive very fair and reasonable treatment.
After you have got your outline consent you tackle the transport people.

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Beyond any question they are the worst enemies of hotel development in this country. Their job is to keep the traffic moving and anybody who wishes to turn off the road to go to an hotel is a nuisance to them. They are not concerned with why traffic is moving, or with what the people in the moving vehicles want to do or where they want to get to; they are concerned only to keep the traffic moving, and therefore they will refuse you access to your hotel if you put it exactly where it ought to be, which is where the people can see it and get to it. The traffic people have a great belief that nothing should he allowed anywhere near our great new motorways that could in any way distract a driver. There was an occasion when we were compelled to take away an illuminated Christmas tree which was outside one of our hotels at Christmas-time because, it was said, it would distract the drivers of vehicles.
Then, my Lords, you have to deal with the health people. We had a case in connection with one of our projects where the health officer insisted that the boiler flue must he at least 60 feet high, while the planning officer said that he would not approve one which was more than 40 feet high. Both of these officers were acting entirely within their rights, and there was no appeal from either of them. What do you do? You sit down and wait while they sort it out. Then you have the historic buildings people. We have actually had a case where development was refused on the ground that a building was historic when we could produce the architect who built it.
My Lords, if your project is in London, all these officials are doubled up, because you have the borough to deal with and the Greater London Council. In respect of one project on which we are labouring at the moment we counted up and found that there are no fewer than 17 public officials whose consent is required. Moreover, these 17 are not like a Select Committee of your Lordships' House: we cannot get them all into one room and proceed by majority vote. It is much more like the historic Polish Diet, where one negative vote is; fatal. Any one of these 17 can frustrate a project completely, and in attempting to meet the requirements of one, more likely than not you are going to get into trouble with every one of the others. Your troubles
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are not over even when the hotel is built. Then you find another set of controls and public officials regulating the signs you want to put out. The Government say that we need beds for tourists, but in another voice they say that they will not allow the tourists to know where the beds are that have been provided for them. We have had cases where we have not even been allowed to say that the building we have erected is an hotel.
It is this impenetrable array of negative forces, much more than lack of money, that is holding back the development of the hotel industry in this country. What is needed is a positive countervailing force—a body with force and authority that can say that it is in the public interest that a project should proceed because, in order to earn foreign currency, we need to be able to house tourists. The Board of Trade, if it would, could provide this. I have a great respect. I would almost say affection, for the Board of Trade. It is one of our great Departments of State. Those who ever have opportunity to observe it at work, as I am having an opportunity of doing at the moment, cannot fail to be impressed by the knowledge and devotion to the public interest that it displays. But, above all, it has the authority, and if there were a department of the Board of Trade that was prepared to go to the planning officers, the health officers, the transport officers, the historic buildings people, the sign controllers and all the rest of them and say that there is a public interest in this matter and this project should proceed, it would be worth more than any scheme of grants or financial aid.
I greatly fear that the Tourist Authority will have no authority at all. Indeed, the description of its functions given by the noble Lord, in moving the Second Reading, suggested that it was going to be a very anodyne and routine body, and anyone who knows the workings of the public service knows that a body of that sort simply will not be listened to, whereas a representative of the President of the Board of Trade always has at his back the authority. He can say to anyone who disagrees with his interpretation of the public interest, "My Minister will be speaking to your Minister". I am not developing what I might call the anti-Socialist case against these new Boards. On the contrary, I am calling for more

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and more active intervention by the Government. I deplore Part I because it is an abdication by the Board of Trade of its proper functions.
I move now to Part II of the Bill, which deals with grants alone. I resist the temptation to go into the general argument. The industry would infinitely prefer to be treated as any other industry is in such matters as depreciation allowances and investment grants, and not to have any special grant system at all. However, since the Government have decided, in their wisdom, that there is to be a special grant system, there is one particular point I want to make about it. In order to qualify, actual work on a project has to start by March 31, 1971. The justification for that is that the White Paper was published in May, 1968, and assurances were given at that time—I thought that they were public assurances but I confess I have not been able to trace them; there were certainly private assurances by the Board of Trade to the industry—that one could rely on the provisions of the White Paper and go ahead.
All the difficulties I have briefly sketched to your Lordships that lie in the way of a successful hotel project require a great deal of time. At the very start, the appeal to the Minister against a primary refusal of planning consent can easily take a full year, and the many other stages also take a long time. I venture to say that of those projects that eventually qualify for grant under this Bill, the great majority were in existence in one stage or another when the White Paper was produced, and it is only the minority that have come into existence since and because of it.
But we now discover from the text of the Bill that the Board can make conditions for the giving of grant. They can make "such conditions as it thinks fit". We shall not know for a long time yet what those conditions will be. This Bill has first to pass into law, and from some of the remarks that were made in your Lordships' House to-day it may seem that the Committee stage will be somewhat extended. But let us suppose that that is within a few weeks from now. Then the Boards, four of them, have to be appointed. The Minister denied in another place the other day that he had thought up any appointments yet.
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Apparently he stands at the start of the business of appointment, and anybody who has had experience of that knows that it takes time, particularly in the holiday months. A Board has to be properly balanced. Philip Guedalla once said that the ideal board consisted of four just men and a statutory woman. But these Boards are supposed to reflect any number of different, balanced considerations. Appointment will take quite a time.
Then, when appointed, the Boards have to be staffed, organised, acquire premises and print their stationery. The Minister in another place has promised that the Boards would consult together on the conditions they are to make. How long will this process take? I do not think that I am being cynical but being strictly realistic in saying that if we know the conditions this day twelve months, we shall be very lucky. But when that time comes there will be less than a year before any project which qualifies has to get started. And if any project is going to be soundly conceived, it will by that time be long past the point of no return, when it is impossible to alter it in order to take account of any conditions that may be imposed. Nobody would argue, and I certainly do not, that public money can ever be handed out unconditionally, but I do say that those who went ahead in good faith in reliance on the White Paper ought not to have unexpected conditions imposed on them too late for them to do anything about it.
I know it will be said that no unreasonable conditions will be imposed, but I do not believe it. It depends so much on your definition of what is a reasonable condition, and some people, particularly in the hotel industry, have the most remarkable ideas about what is reasonable. Let me give one small example. Not long ago my company built an hotel in the Midlands which I think would meet every reasonable qualification of being modern and adapted to the tourist trade. In its designing we made a real effort to reduce the costs in order that the tariff could be equally low; and the tariff is low. Even the per diem allowance made to Members of your Lordships' House would enable noble Lords to stay in this hotel, and there can hardly be a more severe test than that.

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In the course of getting the costs down, we examined every item of expenditure and attempted to distinguish between the necessary and the unnecessary. One thing we decided was that we need not put in that very expensive item, the conventional chest of drawers, but instead, for a hotel designed almost entirely for one-night stays for motorists, we would provide open shelves within the wardrobes in which people store their clothes—clothes which most people never take out of their suitcases anyway. For this reason alone the motoring organisations proposed initially not to list this hotel in their directories. I am glad to say that we talked them out of it. But the point I am trying to put to your Lordships is that people can have the most extraordinary ideas as to what is a necessary condition for a hotel.
I would not necessarily object even that the miscellaneous collection of people the Minister is going to appoint to these Boards will have their own ideas of the conditions, provided we have time, after they have set down their conditions, to accommodate ourselves to them. But we are not going to have it. I greatly fear that, far too late to do anything about it, we are going to have conditions imposed upon us and we shall therefore lose the grant. I earnestly request the Minister to look into this point. The Bill gives him power to give directions to the Boards on the conditions that they shall impose in making grants. I would ask the noble Lord whether he cannot give us a positive assurance that no conditions will be imposed that could not reasonably have been foreseen when the White Paper was issued; or, alternatively, whether he will go a shade further and allow an appeal to himself against any refusal of grant on the score that conditions are not met. Even those, I think, would be poor comfort. Here again, we should infinitely prefer the Minister to do the job himself, because then he could keep his own promise.
I pass now to Part III, on which I do not propose to say more than two or three sentences—not because I like it any better than other noble Lords who have spoken. It seems to be evidence of a passion for bureaucracy, a passion for doing things badly at the public expense that could be done much better and more cheaply by private organisations. It is
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unnecessary, it is cumbrous, and it will be expensive. It will do very little good, and that little will have to be paid for very dearly. However, these are not original views; they have been expounded at some length both in the other place and in your Lordships' House, and will not dwell on them any longer at this late hour.
I began by saying that by a narrow margin I favoured giving this Bill a Second Reading. I have almost been persuaded by my own eloquence to the opposite view. I think Part I is positively bad; I think Part III is, at best, unnecessary. That leaves Part IL dealing with grants. Well, there is an old saying that nobody ever votes against Santa Claus, and I suppose that that covers my attitude to this Part of the Bill. Even now, if the Minister could hold out any hope that our industry could be treated like any other industry, or even if he would give me an assurance in accents that I found sufficiently encouraging that the Board of Trade really were going to use their powers to push a way through this thicket of control, so that those who have the skill and the means, the experience and the knowledge, to build thousands of hotel rooms could get on with the job—if even now he would offer me either of those things, then I would say that I would far rather have them than any grant of public money, and that would enable me to vote with a whole heart against the Bill.
6.53 p.m.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, we have had a very good debate, with contributions from a limited number of people who know a great deal about the subject. This, I think, always helps, rather than to have the much longer debates with which we are sometimes faced. This is a Bill to set up a new organisation, to run an incentive scheme and to enable certain things to be done as statutory Boards see fit. It is as simple as that. I have noticed throughout the debate that those who criticise—and they are perfectly justified in doing so—are rather projecting into the new organisation, or into the details of the hotel scheme, or into the enabling acts in Part III, their anxieties and fears. I think we can clear up the anxieties (as I hope we shall), and deal with the fears, only when we come to the detailed discussion on the

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Committee stage. That, as I understand it, is what a Committee stage is for. So I shall not attempt to answer in any detail the large number of questions that have been put to me across the Floor of the House this afternoon. I do not think your Lordships would wish that, and, as I say, the points are better dealt with in Committee.
On the whole, I have been reasonably satisfied to get a responsive reaction to the Boards without too much damning criticism, except from one or two quarters—and I will come to that in a moment. Let me first deal with the major matter concerned with the whole question of what has been referred to as "overlord-ship". The noble Lord, Lord Geddes, was particularly interested in this. He, I think, would like to see the Authority in a much stronger position in relation to the national Boards than the Bill sets out to put it in. Others, including the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, would like the reverse situation to be brought about. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, fears that the Wales Tourist Board will be unable to do some of the things which they have done in the past and which he wants them to go on doing.
The Government are faced here with a great difficulty. In recent years there has been a growing accent on the need for decentralisation of government, and there has been plenty of fervour exhibited in support of this demand. The whole of the talk about organisation is on decentralisation rather than on further centralisation. One has to take into account views such as were expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and which have been expressed by my own countrymen in Scotland, and no doubt in various areas of England. I think the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, was getting fairly near to a strong local attitude when he talked about his interests in the Lake District and elsewhere in the North.
I think that the Bill as it stands gives a proper division of responsibility. To put it in over-simplified form the Authority is to be responsible for the marketing end of our tourist activity—one which it has done almost too successfully up to now—and the Boards are to be responsible for what one might in industrial terms refer to as the productivity end, producing the goods—which, with great respect, has been the least successful part
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of our tourist industry. I think that we now have a situation where there are more customers than we have facilities with which to satisfy them. This is a dangerous situation as the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, I know, will agree.
This rough division does not in any way inhibit a relationship—not necessarily of a statutory kind, but nevertheless a strong relationship—which can lead to the co-ordination by the Authority, in an informal way, of the activities of the national Boards; and it leaves the Authority with the responsibility of advising the Government and producing for the Government those future schemes of a general kind that cover Great Britain as a whole on which help might be given to the tourist industry in years to come. So it is a balance of judgment. I think it is possible to argue the case put by the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, or the case for more delegation to the national Boards. with conviction in either direction, and I believe that the best compromise has been reached.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords. if I may interrupt the noble Lord, all we want to see is the same relationship as exists at the moment, with the national Board doing all the promotion of Great Britain as a whole, but allowing the constituent parts still to obtain a special relationship where their interests are most concerned—in the case of Wales, with Welsh-speaking Welshmen overseas.
LORD BROWN: I noted the noble Lord's point. I take it that it is not impossible that the Authority could cooperate with the Welsh Board, and still send out literature in the Welsh language in accordance with what has been done in the past. But that is a matter that will have to be discussed, and it is not one that we can go into in detail now. One of the main reasons for making the national Boards into statutory authorities is because we do want statutory bodies to administer the hotel grants and loans scheme. It is very difficult to see bodies as composed now at national level administering such schemes without statutory situations.
I am not going to make any response to the many detailed comments which were made about hotel schemes, because these can be more appropriately made at the Committee stage. In a general

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way I would say that this scheme is not aimed at the general stimulation of all forms of tourist accommodation right across the board, but aimed to produce rapidly an increase of investment in certain types of accommodation which are definitely in short supply. There is no question that other types are in short supply and that it would be a sound thing to stimulate many other forms of tourist accommodation or attraction. The need is for speed. If we do not get speed then we are going to run into a difficult situation. The article in The Times this morning was a shock to me, and coming rather fresh to the subject it seemed to me that we may have already run into such a situation.
It is essential that we do something speedily to meet the serious part of the present shortage. which is in medium-priced hotels. We do not get this by giving grants to people who have a hotel with two bedrooms and undertake to increase it to three or four bedrooms. It may be justifiable to do that from the point of view of the attractiveness of those hotels, but we get more benefit by getting hotels which have ten or 15 bedrooms, and are going to add five, 10, 15 or 20 rooms to those. That is the quickest way of getting extra accommodation. That is the object of the scheme, and it is selective in that sense.
May I turn now to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Crowther. Listening to him was rather like the treatment reputed to be given out by some Eastern European countries to their political prisoners, when they subject them, as I understand it, to "hot and cold" treatment. I did not know from minute to minute whether he was my friend or my vitriolic critic. All I can say is that he combines the eloquence of a long association with the Economist with his current experience as a hotelier, and the results are devastating and formidable. Knowing his great business capacity I can reassure him: his shareholders will not start selling their shares to-morrow, they will not fail to "cough up" more investment in his companies when they are asked to do so, because they know very well that despite the despair, the victimisation which he feels he is suffering from at the hands of the Government and the virulence of the taxation system—
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despite all these obstacles they know he will make money for them and will contribute to the tourist trade of the country.
More seriously, I do not think his anxieties about the range of conditions that could be imposed by the Boards on the hotel grants is going to be anything like as serious as he thinks. It seems to me that the main need is to give the Boards this power to enable them to ensure that the grants are used for the purpose designed. That means that they are used to produce hotel bedrooms which are available to tourists, and that persons who have designs on these grants of a nefarious type, who might filter them away for purposes other than for providing rooms for tourists, will be prevented from doing so by the oversight of these Boards. Quite honestly. if he has in mind the example he quoted which resulted in the failure originally to classify some of his hotels, I think it is quite out of the compass of the conditions the Government have in mind in giving the national Boards the powers to which he has referred. I hope those remarks will reassure him to some extent.
The noble Lords, Lord Drumalbyn, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, and Lord Geddes all raised the staff issue. There will be four new tourist Boards in which there will be openings for members of the staff of the British Travel Association who are willing and suitable to be transferred. We all recognise that. Tourist Boards can be expected to be anxious to make use of people with knowledge and experience in the field of tourism. If there are people who cannot be fitted into the new organisation, the provisions of the Redundancy Payment Act would apply, and the Association also has its own pension scheme which provides certain benefits for retirement on the grounds of redundancy. If, however, there are cases of particular hardship which are brought to our attention, we will look at them as sympathetically as we can and will see whether anything else can be done. I can say no more than that.
The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, to whom I am very grateful for his support of the provisions of this Bill, which he presented as coming from the consumer side—and it was

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good to have somebody speaking strongly from that side—has asked whether there is to be consumer representation on the national Boards. The answer is, very shortly, "No". There will be people on these Boards who reflect the consumers. There will be no representatives as such on the Boards; nobody will be represented there by people whose job it is to state their views. The consumer interest will be reflected. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, is quite unduly concerned about the position of the London Tourist Board. It is a company limited by guarantee, and as such if it wants to advertise overseas it will be able to do so. That is its own business. It can do virtually what it likes—compete with Brighton, or wherever it wants to compete. There is no question of the English Tourist Board imposing its will on such a private entity.
I should like to draw attention to the fact that London, by the nature of things, is already very strongly favoured by the previous and existing work of the British Travel Association, and will continue to be so favoured by the work of the Authority in the future. Whatever propaganda one does overseas for tourism, the end result is to attract a very high proportion of those tourists to London. With respect, in the light of this it would seem to me that it is up to the London Tourist Board to attract the maximum amount of revenue from the tourist industry in London, the London hoteliers and the rest, who make a great deal of money out of it, because it is one of the more profitable parts of the tourist industry in this country. So I would reassure him on the anxieties he expressed so eloquently. I do not think there is the least need to be anxious about most of them, and I hope that during the Committee stage he will realise more fully where the London Tourist Board will stand.
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, raised the question of the national Boards being bodies which would attract membership, possibly take membership from the area bodies, the London body, and so on. That is not so. The national Boards are not membership Boards. Their existence as non-membership Boards might make it easier than the current situation for some of the regional and other bodies to attract members. Noble Lords have raised the
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question of whether the amount of overseas promotion will be kept to the same figure, increased or reduced. Financial matters of this kind, where commitments are being sought, are very difficult. It would be wrong for the Government to give the assurance asked for about the level of funds to be made available for overseas promotion.
The Tourist Authority must be free to consider its priorities. After all, 5 million satisfied customers overseas make their own contribution to overseas promotion, and the work so far of the British Travel Association has set up a very large number of satisfied customers overseas. It is conceivable that the Tourist Authority might wish to spend less on overseas promotion and more on assisting the development of, for example, better hotel booking facilities. The money available for overseas promotion will depend partly on what co-operative revenue the new Authority can obtain. Overseas promotion benefits the balance of payments; it also puts money into the pockets of the holiday trade, into the pockets of car-hire firms and other sections of the tourist trade, and benefits areas of some local authorities. It is therefore right that these bodies should make a contribution, and it will be impossible to give, in advance, finite assurances about how much money there is going to be or about the division between various functions, and I hope the House will accept that——
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, could the noble Lord give us some idea, in very round figures, of the sum of money we are concerned with?
LORD BROWN: From Government sources, in round figures, possibly £31 million plus a maximum of £8 million on the hotel grants and loans schemes.
LORD INGLEWOOD: In total—not per annum?
LORD BROWN: If you add those together the sum is £11½ million. I have to be very careful here. I must not speak from memory. The amount per annum would probably be of the order of £3 million. The total on the hotel scheme is expected to be of the order of £8 million.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would

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forgive me for intervening. Is it not a very odd proposition, and almost an unprecedented proposition, that a statutory board should get contributions from other statutory boards—because this is what it amounts to to a large extent—local authorities and various organisations in this way? After all, if they are statutory, most of them paddle their own canoes and are responsible for any profits they make, or anything like that, to the Exchequer. So it all comes to the same thing in the end. Surely, the statutory board should be dependent for its finance entirely on the Government, and whatever finance is available in the way of contributions should go to those parts of the tourist industry that are dependent on contributions. I do not think that the noble Lord can expect that much will come to a statutory board from other organisations, however closely they may work together. This cuts both ways.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, I do not entirely accept the logic of the noble Lord's statement. After all, here is a statutory body which is carrying out, in the case of the Authority, a function for a great industry in this country, which is profit-making, and it is doing it, and has done it so far, largely with Government funds. I see no reason at all why the industry itself should not move in and support a lot of activity which is very much in support of its own profit. I am not sufficiently familiar with the flow of legislation through this House to be able to say that this is something that has happened before, and I bow to the noble Lord's greater experience in this matter; but if it has never happened before I should think it would be a good thing that it should happen now with regard to this matter. However, this is a matter which we can no doubt explore at greater depth——
LORD CROWTHER: My Lords, would the noble Lord forgive me for intervening—and this, I assure him, is the warm treatment I am trying to he helpful. I am quoting from the Financial Memorandum, when it is referring to the grants part of the Bill. It says:
"It is possible that annual expenditure could rise to about £8 million during the operation of Part II of the Bill."
So is it not the fact that the annual rate of expenditure will be £11½ million, but probably for only one year?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. Now I am puzzled. Maybe we can leave this now and I will sort it out.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, may I ask for elucidation, or perhaps a little added puzzlement, in this matter? I think: the noble Lord said just now that in overseas promotion it would be the intention of the Authority to look to the interested industries within the country to assist with the funds available. Did I understand that correctly? Car hire people, and so forth, do of course profit by overseas trade, and I think the noble Lord suggested that they would be expected to contribute towards the funds available for overseas promotion. Is that right? Because that would throw up immediately the pattern that we are just demolishing. That would create a membership type of structure where you looked to the hotels, the car hire and bus concerns and everybody else, to contribute towards the fund, from which, as the noble Lord knows, we have been obtaining something like £200,000 a year by this means. But that is disappearing, as I had understood it. Perhaps I misunderstood what the noble Lord just said.
LORD BROWN: No, my Lords, that is quite correct. But the noble Lord used the words, "expected to contribute". Let us use the words, "It is hoped that they will contribute". We cannot in a Bill lay a duty upon people to contribute, but let us hope this will be so. I hope that the Authority and the national Boards will do their very best to raise the maximum amount of revenue from the industry. And why not? I can see nothing against this. There may be precedents against it; I do not know.
May I return to the matter of this annual amount per year. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crowther. He is quite right. The sum is, in round terms, £11½, million per year: £3½ million plus £8 million. I am sorry that I misled the House on that point. I was uncertain whether £8 million was over the duration of the whole hotel scheme, or per year. It is per year.
I have dealt with this question of the expenditure, so I move on now to perhaps a minor point that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, asked me about Northern Ireland. He asked whether the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Tourist

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Board would sit as a member on the Authority. The Northern Ireland Tourist Board is not subject to the statutory authority of this Bill, or of the Authority. It is therefore inappropriate for the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Tourist Board to sit as a member on the Authority. But this matter has been fully cleared with the Northern Ireland Government and will in no way prevent full co-operation with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board.
On the question of registration, I think the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, gave very much the answer that I would have given to the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, when he objected to the future possibility of this. I think this is a move which would be of infinite benefit to consumers, but of course it would possibly constitute a great deal of work and possibly some anxiety to the hoteliers themselves. I suggest that the figure of 2 million which Lord Geddes suggested is somewhat unrealistic. It is not supported by some of the other authorities—consultants who have looked at this scheme of registration—and it may be that when Lord Geddes suggested a figure of that size he was thinking of a rather different coverage from that which was in the mind of the Government when they drafted this clause in terms of the section of the industry which would be covered. However, we can leave that. I should like——
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I should like to put one other point on that matter because there really is strong feeling against it. With the present rate of inflation, any registration scheme such as the noble Lord has been suggesting to us would be out of date before it was complete, and all the prices would be wrong.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, no doubt that is a reference to prices alone, but registration covers not only prices; it covers details of things of all kinds pertaining to the hotel. I do not see why one should necessarily declare that that is an obstacle, in view of the fact that other countries have these registrations of their hotel facilities, and they are extremely useful to travellers and the consumer. So we must leave that. There are certainly two points of view there, and I would take the view that the con-
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sumer will benefit from registration, despite some of the drawbacks, one of which is the question of the inflationary effect on price.
I should like to assure the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, that there is no sinister intention whatsoever in this matter. The point is that it is an enabling series of clauses. The decision to introduce registration has not been taken. It will be taken only on the advice of the Authority, and no doubt the advice of the Boards, and it seemed sound to put us in a position to introduce a register without having to go back for further legislation at a later date.
My Lords, I think I have covered most of the points that I wish to take up at this stag. I would close on this note. The main reason lying behind the whole activity of the Government in introducing this Bill has been the extraordinarily successful activities of the British Travel Association in attracting visitors. That is the genesis of this Bill. I am not saying this to compliment the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, and his associates—he has had sufficient acknowledgment paid already—but to explain the genesis of the Bill. Now we have a sales department which has oversold our capacity, if one may be slightly critical, and we have a production department at home which has to be activated and stirred up to produce more accommodation, more facilities and more attractions for tourists. This Bill starts the process, in specific terms, of producing more hotel accommodation. It puts us in a position to move further, through the Boards and through further schemes which might be generated by the different organisations, and it may be the start of creating a situation where the British tourist industry can continue the advance it has made in the last four or five years. On those grounds I commend the Bill to your Lordships.
On Question, Bill read 2a.

CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL
7.22 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ROYLE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Care proceedings in juvenile courts]:
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS moved Amendment No. 1Z:
Page 1, line 13, at end insert ("For the purpose of determining this, any constable to whom it is reported that a child or young person has committed an offence may detain him to determine his name.")
The noble Viscount said: This is a simple little Amendment and, what is more, it actually says what it means. I am sure I shall be told that it is wrongly drafted, that it is in the wrong place and is unnecessary, but I have a point which I think should be brought out. Both in Clause 1 and at the beginning of Clause 2 it is somebody's business to find out whether there are grounds for making an order under the Bill. The first thing one has to do is to find out who the offender is—that seems to be a good start, anyway. The difficulty is that in the case of many minor offences—and possibly, after this Bill becomes law, in other offences—there will be no right inherent in the police to ask an offender's name. This is already so on quite a number of minor offences.
Perhaps I may give a small example which occurred to me a day or two ago. A boy hit me on the head with a stone which he threw from a bridge as I was going along in my boat on the canal. I got hold of the youth and dragged him along to a telephone and telephoned to the police. The police came along and asked me whether I was hurt. I said "No, I am not; I have a good tough head and it is not hurt". "In that case", he said, "will you come aside for a moment?" He then said, "It is very difficult, sir, but we have no right to ask this boy for his name. The only way we can find out his name is to bluff him into giving it". As a matter of fact, while I was talking to the policeman his colleague quietly got the boy's name. But I am quite sure that once this Bill becomes law the young lads of the neighbourhood, who are pretty good lawyers one way or another, will discover that if they go be-
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yond a certain point they will be what they call "put away", and they will discover that their main defence is not to give their names.
I think it must be made absolutely clear in this Bill that the policeman, for the purpose of discovering whether such a child is a young offender in respect of whom care proceedings ought to be brought, must have a right to ask the child's name. If necessary, if the policeman disbelieves the name the child gives—and quite frequently the child at least begins by giving the wrong name—he will take him to the police station and, if necessary, hold him; or he will take the child home and find out whether it is his right name. In my view the right to do this must be put into the Bill; otherwise, to begin with, I do not see how the constable can ever reasonably come to believe that there are grounds for making an order.
Clause 2 starts with the words:
"If a local authority receive information suggesting that there are grounds …"
But whom does it receive the information from? Information "suggesting that there are grounds" is, presumably, information that a youngster is misbehaving. Surely even if it is not a ease of an offence which would be an indictable offence as things stand, if the policeman is to give information that the youngster is misbehaving he must know the youngster's name. It is for this simple purpose that I move this Amendment. It may well be, as I have said, that I shall be told this is not a good Amendment for its purpose, but if I am told so I should like to know just how the offender's name is to be discovered and who informs the local authority. I beg to move.
LORD STONHAM: My noble friend said when he began that he was sure he would be told that his Amendment was wrongly drafted, that it was in the wrong place and that it was unnecessary. I can tell him immediately that he was right once out of three—which is not quite up to his usual average. I am not going to tell him it is wrongly drafted, and I am not going to tell him it is in the wrong place; but I hope to convince him that his Amendment is unnecessary.
I think that my noble friend may be under a misapprehension that the Bill raises the age of criminal responsibility,

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which, as your Lordships know, is fixed, by section 50 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, at ten. The Bill does not amend that section. What it does is to provide that a child under fourteen may not be charged with any offence except homicide. A child remains capable of committing an offence, and may be found to have committed an offence, in care proceedings, and powers of arrest without warrant therefore would not be affected. In this sense the Bill leaves the age of criminal responsibility unchanged, but it raises to fourteen the age at which two of the normal consequences of criminal responsibility—liability to prosecution and to punishment—take effect.
My noble friend quoted the example of a boy dropping a stone on his head, and he said that he had a good tough head and was not hurt. Unfortunately, quite recently a boy dropped a stone from a bridge over a railway on to a man's head, or at least near the man, and the unfortunate man was killed. So this is not something that I regard as a light matter by any means. But the point is that dropping the stone on my noble friend's head without causing bodily harm would not be an arrestable offence. My noble friend used the term "indictable offence" but I have no doubt he will be aware that we now have the term "arrestable offence", and no doubt the policeman thought that it was not an arrestable offence, and it now seems that he was right.
A child over the age of ten remains capable of committing an offence, and he can be arrested without warrant for an arrestable offence. In my noble friend's case, if the constable had seen blood trickling down his face or thought he was hurt, he could most certainly have arrested the boy. Subsection (4) of Clause 26, which I shall later ask your Lordships to agree to amend by Amendments Nos. 32 to 34, deals with what happens on the arrest of a child. No doubt between now and Monday my noble friend will look up that subsection. The position under the Bill will be that the police are required to release the child, unless of course the offence is homicide or they consider that he ought to be detained in his own interests or because of the nature of the alleged offence. If a child refused to give his
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name, so that it was impossible to get in touch with his parents, it would almost certainly be considered in his own interest to detain him until it was found out who he was. In the Bill there are analogous provisions in subsection (4) of Clause 27 about the arrest of a young person.
In short, the answer to my noble friend is this. So far as arrestable offences are concerned, the Amendment is unnecessary; the boy would be detained anyway. So far as non-arrestable offences are concerned, we think it would be wrong, as my noble friend's Amendment proposes, to give the police greater powers over children and young persons—those under 17—than the powers they have in the case of the population at large; that is to say, adults. In other words, if it had not been a boy who dropped the stone without injury, but an adult, the policeman would have been in no different position, whereas what my noble friend is suggesting by his Amendment is that in a non-arrestable offence, if the alleged offender was somebody under 17, the police should have power to detain him. The Government think that would not be right, since there are no such powers in similar circumstances in the case of an adult. I feel sure that, with that explanation, my noble friend will feel able not to press this Amendment.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: I thank my noble friend for that reply, which is in many ways a better reply than I thought I should receive—I seem to have done my homework rather better than I expected. While I am proposing to withdraw this Amendment, I might point out to my noble friend that he is rejecting treatment for children because an adult does not receive it, yet the whole purpose of the Bill, surely, is to give different treatment to children from that which an adult receives. It was for that reason that I thought that a clause which provided for different treatment for children would very properly find a place in this Bill. I should like my noble friend to consider possibly an Amendment of this nature at a later stage in the Bill on that basis, especially when he considers Clause 2, where the grounds for bringing care proceedings are not necessarily grounds connected with arrestable offences. Grounds for bringing care proceedings may be something like the

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child's failure to attend school, or for other reasons, none of which is an arrest-able offence. Surely, if all this sort of thing is to be brought to the attention of the local authority, somebody must find out the name of the boy who is doing it. If a policeman finds a boy who is skulking about somewhere day after day, in school hours, is he not allowed to ask the boy his name? Might it not be a matter which ought to be brought to somebody's attention? That is why I suggested this Amendment.
I am not worried about the arrestable offence; I quite agree that that is covered. But it is the non-arrestable offence which ought to be covered, because the sooner you find out that the youngster is in need of care, the better. If he is in need of care, you do not want the situation to run on and on, and get worse and worse; the sooner it is put right the better, and the sooner you get the machinery turning, the better for the lad. This is for the protection of the lad. I quite understand my noble friend's point about this being something that would not be allowed in the case of an adult. But children are not adults, and this whole Bill has been introduced specifically for that very reason. So I would ask my noble friend to look at that particular point again, if he will.
LORD STONHAM: Perhaps I may say a word before my noble friend withdraws his Amendment. He mentioned that this Bill is about different treatment for children compared with adults; and I agree. But in the main the differences are in a beneficial and protective sense, which I know my noble friend heartily supports. But I would ask him to look again, as I am sure he has looked several times, at paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (2). If he does so, I think he will agree that in most of those cases (1 do not say the single throwing of a stone, but he mentioned the boy persistently absent from school) there is power under the Bill, justification under the Bill, for the constable to act in accordance with the first few lines of Clause 1, and take action designed to implement his belief that the child is in need of care. With regard to the educational point failure to attend school is of course dealt with in Clause 26(1). You can see the position in regard to the boy there.
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So far as the present position is concerned, my noble friend is probably aware with regard to the non-arrestable offences—and he has already conceded the point about arrestable offences—they are at present dealt with by summons. We have not heard from the police of any difficulties in summoning children. In order to do that they have to try to get their correct names and their correct addresses. I am not saying that they do not fail at times, but they do have this power. I know how much my noble friend's thoughts about this Bill are in accord with the Bill and with my own thoughts, and I will certainly look at the point that he made in his second speech. But he will understand that that is without any commitment that I shall be able to meet him.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: I thank my noble friend, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.42 p.m.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 20, after ("is") insert ("falling into bad associations or is").
The noble Baroness said: To me, this is a small but important point. Under the present law as laid down in 1963, one of the tests is that a child or young person is "falling into bad associations" and is exposed to moral danger. The corresponding test in this Bill makes no mention of falling into bad associations, and I want to ask why. I know there are juvenile court magistrates who have found it valuable in a boy's interests to be able to commit him to care because he has been falling into bad associations, even though it may not be possible to say that he is in moral danger. Apparently, this power is now to be taken away. Do the Government really think that falling into bad associations does not matter? If not, would it not be eminently sensible to accept this Amendment? I move.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I have a good deal of sympathy with the Amendment of the noble Baroness. I cannot see why "bad associations", a. phrase which is in the 1963 Act, should suddenly have been dropped out of this Bill. I think I should have even more sympathy if the Amendment had gone a

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little further, and added to "bad associations" some such phrase as "or bad habits". I have in mind that this phrase might make it easier for the Government to accept an Amendment which I shall be moving later, about omitting the proviso that finding him guilty of an offence is one of the grounds on which a care order can be made. I should have thought that the important thing in this clause was that one should be fairly flexible; that we should have opportunity to deal with children who are in any kind of trouble or giving trouble, and that there should not be rigid provisions; that so far as possible there should be no rigid finding based on particular incidents but that the general way of life of the child should be the ground for the making of the care order. Therefore I have a good deal of sympathy for the noble Baroness's Amendment, and I greatly hope that the Government will give it serious consideration.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: Although I do not know a great deal about children in care, I sympathise with the Amendment because I think that there are a great many things that happen to a child and he or she gets into bad associations without being in any moral danger. To have only "moral danger" seems to me to exclude far too much bad behaviour.
7.45 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I always think that one Barbara is something to be reckoned with, two Barbaras are impressive, but when they are supported by a Dora as well, it is truly formidable. I was asked whether the Government were not concerned about children falling into bad associations. A lot of this Bill is about children falling into bad associations. But perhaps I can explain why we have dropped those words out of the Bill. "Falling into bad associations", as my noble friend Baroness Wootton reminded us, is in the existing law, in Section 2 of the 1963 Act. It first appeared in this form of words in the Children and Young Persons Act 1932, and it then replaced some conditions in the Children Act 1908. The words in that Act were not "falling into bad associations" but "frequents the company of any reputed thief, or of any common or reputed prostitute." In those days the law attempted to define the cases
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in which a child could be brought before a court by setting out a long list of specific circumstances. In this way we are moving away from criminal prosecutions of children, and we are moving away, therefore, from this form of words. The condition proposed in the Amendment—that is, the insertion of the words "falling into bad associations"—is extremely wide, and we have omitted it from Clause 1 of the Bill because it is difficult, if not impossible (and I find it impossible) to envisage the situations which it would cover and in which it would be desirable for a court to make an order: that is, situations which are not already covered by the other paragraphs of Clause 1(2) of this Bill.
I would ask the noble Baronesses to consider this point. The Amendment asks us to assume that there are cases where the child has not committed an offence, is attending school, is not beyond the control of his parents, is not exposed to moral danger, where his proper development is not being avoidably prevented or neglected, and yet he is in need of care or control because he is falling into bad associations. I have tried to envisage a situation and I really cannot think of one, and the noble Baroness did not give one. If this Amendment were accepted, it would be possible for four children to be brought before the court in care proceedings, and if the court found that three of them had committed an offence but the fourth had not, it would be possible for the court nevertheless to make an order in the case of the fourth child because he had associated with the other three children.
In short, what is being asked for, and what the noble Baroness has asked us to agree with, is that in the case of children guilt by association shall he enough to justify the use of compulsory powers. That is a proposition that the Government just cannot accept, because we do not believe that this ought to be the law. In our view, the conditions in Clause 1(2) are wide enough to cover the situations where a court order is justified. But the words which the Amendment proposes to insert are a relic of the earlier law. I know that we do not like to discard cherished relics, but these are a relic of the earlier law which did not contain any general criteria of the kind which are now included in subsection (2). These words might well have

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been necessary in former legislation, but they are certainly not necessary now when, with this Bill, we shall have criteria which, so far as I can see, cover all the likely and I think possible situations.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I must, I think, protest at the noble Lord's vehement assertion that if these words were inserted we should then be making children subject to guilt by association which is a thing that we would never contemplate in adults. I am very surprised that my noble friend is interpreting the whole of this clause as though it has to do with guilt; it has nothing to do with guilt, it has to do with children's need of care. Most of the subsections in this clause do not have to do with guilt; they have to do with whether the child is beyond his parents' control and whether he is in moral danger. This is not a clause designed to distinguish guilty children from non-guilty children. One of the things which may be a danger to children is bad associations, but this is not to say that they have all been held to be guilty by association.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: Would my noble friend not agree that the only example anyone could think of where a person was not guilty of any of these other things but was guilty of falling into bad associations is Jesus Christ?
LORD STONHAM: I am grateful to my noble friend; I had not been able to think of one. In answer to the point raised by my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger, of course she is quite right in saying that this Bill and this clause have nothing to do with guilt. I did not say that this clause had: I referred to the effect of accepting the Amendment; and I gave an example, which has not been controverted. If there were four children, three of whom were adjudged to have committed an offence (and this is permitted under paragraph (e)) and the fourth one not, this Amendment (because he was associating with the other three and it could be said therefore that he had fallen into bad association) would make it possible for the court, if it so wished, to make a care order in respect of that child. I do not think I have overstated the case by saying that, in so doing, if they did so, under the power which would
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be granted by this Amendment, they would be assuming guilt by association with the other three.
LORD KILBRACKEN: Would not that be possible already, because the boy in question would be exposed to moral danger through his association with the other three?
LORD STONHAM: That is already covered by the Bill. I have already recited the points, but if my noble friend wishes I will recite them again. I said the Amendment assumes that there are cases where the child has not committed an offence (I am reading down the Bill: he is attending school, is not beyond the control of his parents, is not exposed to moral danger, and that his proper development is not being avoidably prevented or neglected) yet is in need of care and control because he is falling into bad associations. What I am saying to the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, is that this is covered, that these words are unnecessary, and, I think, indeed harmful—or could be harmful.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: The noble Lord has replied with much vehemence to the Amendment which I was seeking to move. It is quite clear that there is concern about this not only from myself and on this side of the House but from those who are much more experienced, as was seen in the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger. I am not at this late hour going to continue to press this. I shall beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, but I hope very much that the Minister will consider it and think it over, and we may discuss this again art Report stage.
LORD STONHAM: I am always ready to consider anything, and if I spoke vehemently it is because I feel very strongly about this point, as I feel very strongly about many parts of the Bill, and I may speak vehemently again. However, I would ask the noble Baroness to read these arguments, and if anyone can come up with an example of where they are not covered, then I would be prepared to consider it again. I will read what has been said, but I cannot hold out any hope that I can come back with a different answer than the present.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STONHAM: The next Amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Wootton, and the following one in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, are both Amendments which raise matters of fundamental importance which require close and possibly lengthy consideration, and I would suggest that it might best meet the convenience of the Committee if we adjourned our proceedings in Committee now and resumed in full strength on Monday.
EARL JELLICOE: I should like to associate myself with what the noble Lord has just said. I am sure this would be better.
House resumed.

NORTH EAST LINCOLNSHIRE WATER BILL
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  U.K. POPULATION FORECAST FOR A.D. 2000
  U.K. POPULATION FORECAST FOR A.D. 2000
  UNITED KINGDOM IMMIGRATION AND EMIGRATION
  UNITED KINGDOM IMMIGRATION AND EMIGRATION