Sitting of 28 November 1968

Preamble
The House met at half past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Northern By-pass, Cardiff
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will instruct his road engineers, in co-operation with appropriate local authorities, to plan variations of the proposed route of the Cardiff Northern By-pass, to avoid the necessity for demolition of houses at Lisvane, including houses erected in recent years; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ifor Davies): We are already doing all we can to avoid houses, but the demolition of some property in Lisvane is unavoidable if the road is to have a satisfactory alignment. I would stress that the present line is provisional and might be varied slightly when the road is designed in detail and further surveys are carried out.
    Mr. Gower: Does the Under-Secretary appreciate that there is a large degree of uncertainty and that many people, some of whom have bought expensive houses in recent years, are apprehensive about this and are unaware whether their properties are affected?
    Mr. Davies: My right hon. Friend will regret it as much as anyone if houses have to be demolished, but this road will carry through-traffic to and from South Wales and a satisfactory alignment is most essential.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: While recognising the difficulty of alignment and the importance of this road, may I ask whether the Under-Secretary is in a position to
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    tell the House how many houses will be demolished and for how long these houses have been built?
    Mr. Davies: The line is provisional at the moment, and full details are not available. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the position is being fully investigated, and the concern expressed by him and his hon. Friend will be taken into account. The actual number of houses affected is not yet available, because the line is provisional.
    Mr. E. Rowlands: Following what has been said, does my hon. Friend appreciate that the uncertainty caused by these matters creates a blight of areas and property much wider than the road itself will affect? Is he aware that it is necessary that local authority or central Government should make clear to individual residents whether they will be buying houses which may be, in a month or a year, acquired for the road?
    Mr. Davies: We are fully aware of this, but when a new road is built some houses are inevitably affected. Consideration is given to all these matters and we will give as much advance information as possible.

    Sewerage Disposal Schemes
    Mr. Hoosonasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many sewerage disposal schemes in rural areas he has refused to approve since he came into office on the grounds of economy.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. George Thomas): Eighteen.
    Mr. Hooson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the tremendous resentment in Wales, because of the feeling that he is curtailing and preventing the implementation of sewerage schemes in rural areas? The implied reasoning behind this seems to be that they are not urgently required for housing and public health reasons in the rural areas as opposed to urban areas.
    Mr. Thomas: In the same period I have agreed to 26 schemes in rural areas. I am not free to agree to every scheme that comes before me, without consideration of the limits on public expenditure.
    Mr. Hoosonasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many villages in

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    the Principality of Wales, including Monmouthshire, are still without any mains sewerage scheme; and what steps he intends to take to remedy the position.
    Mr. George Thomas: I regret that the information covering the first part of the Question is not readily available. On the second part, local authorities themselves have the responsibility to prepare schemes for settlements in their areas where they think it worth while to provide main drainage. I am very ready to consider any scheme submitted to me; but authorities must bear in mind that only the essential schemes can be allowed to proceed at present.
    Mr. Hooson: Does the Secretary of State not appreciate that local authorities feel frustrated because, after years of preparation in consultation with his Office, when the final schemes are prepared, in many cases he turns them down or at least holds them back? Is he aware that they feel that the Government no longer regard the provision of rural sewerage schemes as an important and urgent matter?
    Mr. Thomas: I understand and sympathise with the frustration that the rural local authorities feel. The plain truth is that we cannot be indifferent to the size of public expenditure.

    Prince of Wales (Investiture)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what outside experts and specialists have been commissioned by him to advise on the procedure to be carried out at the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernavon.
    Mr. George Thomas: I have not commissioned any outside experts or specialists to advise on the procedure.
    Mr. Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greatest expert on the Investiture of the Prince of Wales is the unfortunate gentleman who was invested the last time? Will he consult his book on the Investiture, in which he described the Investiture procedure as rather silly, saying that he nearly went on strike and was only persuaded to carry on to please his mother?
    Mr. Thomas: I well recall my hon. Friend telling the House that, like General Eisenhower, he is a Republican,
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    so I understand that he is opposed to any ceremonial associated with royalty.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of the present economic situation and the need for reductions in expenditure, if he will postpone the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernarvon until the end of the financial crisis.
    Mr. George Thomas: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hughes: Why is the Secretary of State determined to be the prodigal son of the Labour Government and to insist on this expensive spending spree at a time when the nation is in such financial difficulties?
    Mr. Thomas: The unprejudiced view of my hon. Friend overlooks the fact that this Investiture happens to be a very good investment for the people of Wales. No fewer than 400 million people are expected to watch it on the television. I am confident that the Investiture will arouse tremendous interest for the tourist trade in Wales.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is lucky that Wales as a whole does not take the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) very seriously? It is the opinion of the Opposition that the vast majority of the people of Wales look forward to the Investiture with great enthusiasm.
    Mr. Thomas: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I share his view that, when the Investiture takes place and the Prince tours Wales, the Welsh people will turn out in their tens of thousands.
    Mr. Hughes: On a point of order. I hope to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    Cardiff-Barry Road
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of the growth of population, the increase of industrial road traffic and of car ownership in the areas of Barry, Rhoose, Wenvoe and Llantwit-Major, and the number of road accidents in recent years along the main Cardiff to Barry road via Wenvoe, he will take steps to change the status of that road to an A road; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: The function of this road has not altered in such a way as to justify giving it the status of a trunk road.
    Mr. Gower: But is not the hon. Gentleman aware that this road has a very serious accident record and that, apart from numerous accidents resulting in injury, there have been a large number of fatal accidents in recent years? Is he further aware that the kind of alterations which are necessary can be ensured only by upgrading the road?
    Mr. Davies: We fully appreciate the importance of this road, but traffic volumes play only a part in determining the status of the road. The bulk of the through-traffic travels along the A48 and duplicating the trunk road facilities could not be justified.

    Rhoscefnhir, Anglesey (Petition)
    Mr. Fortescueasked the Secretary of State for Wales what reply he has sent to the petition from the residents of Rhoscefnhir, Anglesey, against the determination of the Anglesey County Council to destroy certain structures at Caerffynnon, Rhoscefnhir.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: The petition formed part of the evidence considered before the decision letter of 29th February, 1968, was sent.
    Mr. Fortescue: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, which is not very informative, may I ask him whether he accepts that the occasion of this petition was a protest from the residents of this village against the vendetta being carried on by the Anglesey County Council and the local rural district council against my constituent who has a holiday home there? Would he agree that this treatment of a man from Liverpool compares very badly with the treatment which Welsh men and women always receive from the warm-hearted people of my constituency?
    Mr. Davies: I cannot for one moment accept the word "vendetta". The petition concerned a case which goes back a few years. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the appeals in connection with this matter have been fully dealt with. The appeals have been subject to two references to the Parliamentary Commissioner
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    for Administration, who found that there was no maladministration.

    Caravan Sites
    Mr. Fortescueasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his policy regarding the provision of amenities at caravan sites in Wales.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: I would refer the hon. Member to the model standards prescribed under Section 5 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960, and published with Ministry of Housing and Local Government Circular No. 42 of 1960.
    Mr. Fortescue: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that my constituent in the case which I raised in the Question No. 7 has been directed by the Anglesey County Council to destroy two small buildings containing a bathroom, hot and cold water and a flush lavatory so that they can be replaced by a chemical toilet?
    Mr. Davies: I am aware of the position, but I must emphasise that the amenity change to which the hon. Gentleman has referred involved planning permission, and planning permission was refused by the planning authority.

    Llantrisant Radial Road, Cardiff
    Mr. E. Rowlandsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made on the study by consultants appointed by him on the alignment and programming of the Llantrisant radial road, Cardiff; what the specific terms of references for the consultant were; and when they were given.
    Mr. George Thomas: The following terms of reference were agreed and given to the consultants in October, 1968:
    "To examine and report on the construction of a new trunk road between the Gabalfa Intersection and the north/south railway which runs between Rhydlafer Farm and Slanny Woods and in liason with Glamorgan County Council to indicate the westward continuation of the new road to the proposed M4 extension."
    The report is expected in the summer of 1969.
    Mr. Rowlands: Would my right hon. Friend say whether within the terms of reference the consultants are considering the alternative routes for this road, because it was assumed that the road line

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    given in the Buchanan proposals and the road line given in the Buchanan Report was firm? If that is not so, the alignment of the whole of the Cardiff road programme is affected and must be looked at again.
    Mr. Thomas: I fully understand my hon. Friend's anxiety and that of Cardiff people. The consultants are satisfying themselves that the line which they finally recommend is the best obtainable on engineering as well as planning grounds, and any departure from the findings in the Buchanan studies would be made only if there were very strong engineering grounds.

    Mid-Wales Rural Development Board
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether under his new responsibilities for agriculture in Wales, he will abolish the Mid-Wales Rural Development Board.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mrs. Eirene White): My right hon. Friend's new responsibilties will not affect the present statutory position, under which the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and he are jointly responsible for setting up a rural development board in Wales. No board has yet been established. We are now awaiting the report of the public inquiry into the proposals.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: It is a little difficult to understand the dividing line between the responsibilities for agriculture of the hon. Lady's two right hon. Friends. Since in two years' time, under another Government, the Mid-Wales Rural Development Board will be got rid of, can the hon. Lady say why her right hon. Friend continues to waste public money on it?
    Mrs. White: Apparently this is a matter on which the hon. Gentleman cannot be convinced. We believe that the £500,000, or thereabouts, which will be injected into the area if the Board is established will be of very great benefit.

    Agriculture
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will make a statement on Welsh agriculture.
    Mrs. White: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Fred Evans) on 5th November, the Secretary of State will not be assuming his new functions until April of next year.—[Vol. 772, c. 63.]
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: But that does not answer my Question. Would the Secretary of State, when he takes over these new functions, make a statement on Welsh agriculture because the statement made by his right hon. Friend the other day was very inadequate and meant very little to Welsh farmers?
    Mrs. White: On the contrary, I should have thought that the reassurances given about meat and milk would be very satisfactory to farmers, not to mention the sheep. My right hon. Friend will not take over these functions before April next year.
    Mr. Anderson: In view of the recent statement of the Minister of Agriculture about home agriculture's contribution to import substitution, would my hon. Friend think it appropriate to issue a statement on the contribution which Welsh agriculture can make?
    Mrs. White: At the moment, that is still a matter for the Minister of Agriculture.

    Cwmbran New Town
    Mr. Abseasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement concerning the future population target of Cwmbran New Town; and whether he will take steps to restructure the Development Corporation and existing amenity plans to meet the needs caused by an expansion of the new town.
    Mr. Andersonasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to announce his conclusions on the new target population figure and the next steps towards elected local government for Cwmbran New Town.
    Mr. George Thomas: I have decided to ask the Corporation to continue its building activities within the limits of the present designated area. I have decided also that it is desirable that the Corporation should include more members

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    with current experience in local government in the area, and I propose to reconstruct it accordingly within the next few months.
    Mr. Abse: I thank the Secretary of State for having, as his Answer reveals, so sensitively responded to the representations of myself, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Anderson) and the Cwmbran Council. Could he tell us a little more about the amenity plans to meet the needs of any expansion since clearly, if Cwmbran is to expand, it is urgently necessary that within the limits of the present economic position there should be greater amenities for the people of the new town?
    Mr. Thomas: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend, who, with my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, has made strong representations to me on this matter. Amenities are very important. I am now reviewing the matter and there will be further discussions with the authorities concerned, although clearly I know now that I shall not be able to give as much as I should like to give until the economic circumstances are better.
    Mr. Anderson: Will my right hon. Friend, who has responded with his usual sympathy to local feeling on this matter, recognise that local people will see this only as a significant interim step on the way to eventual full local self-government in the Cwmbran area?
    Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend is a fellow Methodist and I remind him of the hymn:
    "One step enough for me".

    Primary Road Programme, Cardiff
    Mr. E. Rowlandsasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will ensure that public opinion in Cardiff has been fully taken into account before he makes any decision upon the Cardiff primary road programme submitted to him for his approval.
    Mr. George Thomas: Yes, Sir. The City Council has not yet submitted proposals to me for approval and before I could approve the construction of the primary distributor roads now commonly referred to as the "hook road", I expect
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    it will be necessary to hold a public inquiry.
    Mr. Rowlands: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in both capital cities, Cardiff and London, there is a growing revolt by citizens against the ravages of these urban motorway schemes? Will he consider sympathetically the view which was put to the Minister of Housing and Local Government on behalf of local residents that the public inquiry should be of the new Stansted type under the 1968 Act—a public inquiry commission—rather than the old form of public inquiry, which has too narrow and restricted terms of reference to deal with the problems involved?
    Mr. Thomas: I well know that this matter has raised tremendous concern among the people in the City of Cardiff. I will look at my hon. Friend's proposal, but, of course, I cannot commit myself.

    Train Services, Newport
    Mr. Andersonasked the Secretary of State for Wales what directions he gave to the Welsh Council to consider the local economic and social implications before the Railways Board submitted its proposal that train services between Newport and Hereford and Newport and Gloucester should be discontinued.
    Mrs. White: The Council was consulted before my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport decided not to give grants in aid of these services and will be consulted again on the proposal to withdraw the local service between Newport and Gloucester. The local service between Newport and Hereford does not involve statutory closures and can be withdrawn by the Railways Board at its discretion.
    Mr. Anderson: Does not my hon. Friend recognise that much of the excellent work of the Welsh Office in Monmouthshire can be put at risk by unwise decisions on railways? Is it not ridiculous that the Monmouthshire County Council and the Severnside Survey were not consulted before these decisions were made? Does not this argue for second thoughts and for the Welsh Office to have a much bigger say in these decisions?
    Mrs. White: As I have already indicated, both the Welsh Council and my

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    right hon. Friend have been consulted, and my hon. Friend has recently put his other points to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Will my hon. Friend appreciate that there is much concern locally about the proposed closure of the Newport to Gloucester line and that a number of hon. Members have made representations to the Minister of Transport about it? Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that her Ministry will now back up those representations which are being made?
    Mrs. White: I much regret that my hon. Friend should use the phrase "closure of the line", because no such thing is proposed. It is proposed to discontinue local services. While we fully appreciate that this may cause inconvenience and, possibly, hardship, this is a matter which will have to be discussed by the transport users' consultative committee and again by the Welsh Council if the Minister of Transport decides so to proceed. At the moment, all that my right hon. Friend has said is that he will not give a grant.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Will the Minister accept, however, that whether it is the closure of a line or of a service, it is much the same thing to those who are getting their livelihood at Newport and, perhaps, living at Hereford? Is the hon. Lady satisfied that her Office is doing enough with the Ministry of Transport to stop it closing these very important services?
    Mrs. White: We have, of course, considered the matter very carefully. As to the Newport—Hereford line, the intercity trains will be stopping trains, but some of the local services which were not well patronised will be withdrawn.

    Local Government (Staff Commission)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of his intention to put forward detailed proposals for legislation based on the organisation outlined in the White Paper, Local Government in Wales, Command Paper No. 3340, if he will also establish a staffing commission at the earliest practicable date.
    Mrs. White: As the White Paper made clear, it is proposed that the legis-
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    lation should provide for a Welsh Staff Commission. The local authority associations and the staff associations will be consulted about the details in the course of the continuing preparatory work.
    Mr. Hughes: I am glad to be reassured on this point by my hon. Friend. Will she also appreciate that to secure the full co-operation of the local Government officers concerned in the reorganisation, it is essential that their security be given the highest possible priority?
    Mrs. White: I am quite certain that my right hon. Friend has this very much in mind, and he will, of course, be consulting the local authority organisations.

    Malpas Road, Newport
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in consultation with Newport Borough Council, he will speed up the road improvements at Malpas Road, Newport, Monmouthshire.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: The programme for improving this road was drawn up with Newport County Borough Council and for various reasons, including the time required for statutory procedures and land acquisition, it cannot be shortened.
    Mr. Hughes: Will my hon. Friend appreciate that these improvements are causing a great deal of inconvenience to the residents in the area? While this improvement is necessary for the trade and commerce of the town, it has, nevertheless, been suggested locally that the Ml was built in a similar period of time.
    Mr. Davies: The statutory procedures must take their course. I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates that it is necessary to allow time for objections to be received and any necessary public inquiries to be held.

    Local Government Reorganisation
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied that the proposed new local government boundaries will establish district councils sufficiently viable to carry out their functions; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. White: Yes, Sir. One of the principal objectives of the reorganisation of Welsh local government is to distinguish, at both county and district level,

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    areas of adequate resources. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that his proposals will achieve this.
    Mr. Jones: Would my hon. Friend agree that rateable value per head of population is a useful yardstick to measure the viability of a local authority? Would she not agree that under the present proposals, the Rhondda Borough Council will be the poorest authority in the whole of Wales?
    Mrs. White: Rateable value is one of many criteria. The quality of the Rhondda in other respects will, I am sure, out-weigh any deficiency in rateable value. I understand that the rateable value of the proposed new district will be greater than that of the present district.

    Pit Closures (Welsh Council's Report)
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will publish the reports of the Welsh Council, especially those making recommendations on specific pit closures.
    Mrs. White: It is open to the Council to publish reports on its work subject to any overriding considerations of confidentiality. But advice by the Council to the Government on the effect of individual colliery closures is given on a confidential basis and it would not be appropriate to publish it.
    Mr. Jones: Would not my hon. Friend agree that a pit closure is a severe blow, not only to the miners involved, but to the whole community and that, if the miners are to have confidence in the pit closure programme, it is essential that they be given more information as to the type of advice tendered by the Welsh Council?
    Mrs. White: The advice of the Welsh Council is only one of the many factors which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power has to take into account. We are fully aware of and sympathetic to the need for the greatest possible co-operation with the National Union of Mineworkers.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The hon. Lady will be aware that we on this side have pressed her right hon. Friend to be more specific about the Reports of the Welsh Council. In this connection, would the hon. Lady perhaps remind her right hon. Friend of
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    the words of the hymn which we in the Church of Wales use very often:
    "Lead, kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom"?
    Mrs. White: Between them, the hon. Member and my right hon. Friend would make a very good choir.
    Mr. G. Elfed Davies: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Chairman of the North-East Planning Council has no such inhibitions and that when there have been tentative pit closures in the area, he has made it clear where his council stands? Would not my hon. Friend agree that it would be far better for good democratic government if the same thing applied in Wales?
    Mrs. White: I am aware that on one occasion such advice was disclosed. Whether that was wise is a matter of opinion.

    R.A.F. Station, Pembrey (Bomb Explosion)
    Mr. Gwynfor Evansasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the bomb explosion at the Royal Air Force station at Pembrey.
    Mr. George Thomas: I have nothing to add to the statement I made to the Press at the time.
    Mr. Evans: Is the Secretary of State aware that a Royal Air Force man from the Midlands of England was interrogated by the police in connection with this crime and that he has since been kept in a psychiatric ward of a Royal Air Force hospital? Why has the Secretary of State always given the impression that it was impossible for anybody but a Welshman to be responsible? Would he not now apologise to the Welsh people for that slur?
    Mr. Thomas: It is monstrous for the hon. Member to pick out an individual and cast a slur on him, as he has done this afternoon. It so happens, according to my advice, that that man was cleared. By common standards of decency, the hon. Member should withdraw the imputation which he has made against one individual from the Royal Air Force.
    As to the rest, after every previous explosion which took place in Wales before Pembrey, the extremists rushed

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    in to claim credit or to give us advice about what we should do subsequently. It was only when someone was injured that they changed their tune.
    Mr. Anderson: Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is more appropriate to show sympathy with the innocent, injured airman, rather than to make this sort of party capital out of the matter?
    Mr. Thomas: I think that I may tell the House that overwhelmingly the people of Wales were horrified at what happened to the young warrant officer, and I believe that it changed the atmosphere in Wales. As I told the young man, out of his misfortune some good has come to Wales: the people have realised that the cult of violence is destructive of the whole nation.

    Economic Development Plan
    Mr. Gwynfor Evansasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will publish an economic development plan for Wales.
    Mrs. White: The economic strategy for Wales has already been set out in "Wales: The Way Ahead".
    Mr. Evans: Is the hon. Lady aware of the speed with which the situation in Wales is deteriorating, with 50,000 fewer men at work in Wales today than there were two years ago? Is she aware that the deflationary package on Friday underlines once again the truth that a Welsh government would find it impossible to make such a mess of the economy of Wales as English Governments do?
    Mrs. White: I do not accept any of the points made by the hon. Gentleman, and I repeat that the broad strategy has already been set out very forcefully and very wisely in "Wales: The Way Ahead."
    Mr. Hooson: Is the hon. Lady aware that what Wales really needs is no more plans but actual economic development?
    Mrs. White: That is exactly what Wales is getting and I should have thought that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) would have been delighted at the innumerable announcements made within the last three months about major economic developments in the Principality.

  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Secondary Reorganisation, Reading
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on the meeting held on 22nd October between officials of his Department and representatives of the County Borough of Reading relating to the reorganisation of secondary education in the borough.
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement concerning his negotiations with the Reading Borough Council in respect of its plans for the reorganisation of secondary education.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Miss Alice Bacon): My officials had a full and useful exchange of views with representatives of the authority, and I am informed that the education committee has now decided to reconstitute its working party on reorganisation to discuss the points raised at the recent meeting.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Can the right hon. Lady confirm, what I think is the case, that this useful exchange of views to which she referred proceeded on the basis that the Secretary of State, under the present law, has no power to enforce upon an authority his reorganisation plans of which the authority disapproves, and that on his own admission the law is unlikely to be changed in the present Parliament?
    Miss Bacon: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the proposals which Reading put to us were referred back for discussion, and when these proposals were referred back on 30th May I offered to arrange for discussions to take place between Reading's representatives and my officials, and a meeting was held recently in response to that offer. I have had no complaints whatsoever from the local authority about this, nor about the way in which the discussions were conducted.
    Mr. Astor: Would the right hon. Lady give an assurance that she will not press for the implementation of any scheme of reorganisation till adequate facilities are available for the children of the whole ability range?
    Miss Bacon: It is the Government's view that we should proceed as quickly as possible towards a full scheme of comprehensive reorganisation and we continue to press local authorities to go ahead with such schemes. I recognise that we must have resources as well, but at Reading it was not the resources which were the trouble but the fact that Reading wanted to retain its two grammar schools.
    Sir E. Boyle: But have not both the right hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend agreed in recent debates that the issue of resources is extremely important here, and have not many authorities, as, for example, Warwickshire only yesterday made it plain that they are perfectly prepared to implement the plan but only when adequate resources become available to do a proper job for the whole ability range?
    Miss Bacon: Yes, we have never pretended that resources are not important, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a few—not a lot, but a few—local authorities have been opposed to comprehensive education even if resources were there. In this case Reading wanted to retain its two grammar schools. The right hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, in spite of the fact that we could not go ahead as quickly as we hoped with the building programme, we have another £7 million in each of two years to spend on comprehensive reorganisation, and it means that the schemes due to come into operation in 1968–69 will come into operation.

    Comprehensive Education (Publication)
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on the publication, "Comprehensive Education in England and Wales", prepared by the National Foundation for Educational Research, a copy of which has been sent to him.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Edward Short): It analyses the results of a fact-finding exercise in 1966 based on 331 comprehensive schools. A more intensive and up-to-date study is already under way.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: While appreciating that this is only an interim report, and that it certainly does not vitiate the
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    increasing educational view that selection at the age of 11 is educationally unwise, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it does not also show that it is necessary for all political parties, before insisting on comprehensive education in all its aspects in every part of the country, to treat it with some considerable caution?
    Mr. Short: Yes, of course, any educational development needs to be treated with caution. I have looked very carefully at the report. I hope the hon. Gentleman will do me the honour of reading a speech I made yesterday to the National Foundation for Educational Research when, among other things, I sought to put into its right perspective a comment which The Times had made on this subject. Perhaps he will read the article and we can discuss it together.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greatest difficulty the N.F.E.R. had in drawing up this report was that it was unable to find sufficient genuinely comprehensive schools and not as many statistics as it hoped there would be, and does it not point to the fact that we need rapidly to eliminate grammar schools in the comprehensive areas so that we can have more genuinely comprehensive schools on which to base any research at all?
    Mr. Short: Yes, that is perfectly true. This report, which because of a number of factors, was rather long delayed, was based on the situation in 1966, so that I think we ought to be very wary about drawing any conclusion from it.

    Awards to Students (Trainee Pilots)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now take steps to enable local authorities to make awards to students who are training to become commercial pilots but who are not sponsored by the airline corporations.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Shirley Williams): Local education authorities already have discretionary powers to do so.
    Mr. Longden: But is the Minister aware that Hertfordshire authority, at any rate, in pursuing a policy which it considers was recommended by her right

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    hon. Friend and making awards to sponsored trainees only, and are not other commercial pilot trainees who are making great financial sacrifices as deserving of university awards as are some university students?
    Mrs. Williams: We have certainly not advised authorities not to make awards to unsponsored students. We have simply indicated what we think are the appropriate rates of grant for sponsored students, and that, in the case of unsponsored students, to have wide variations in practice between local authorities would be undesirable. We cannot do more because of the Act of Parliament of 1962.
    Mr. Longdenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why his Department's circular 4/66 differentiates between the grant paid to pilots in training at Hamble and those training at other approved flying schools; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: At Hamble students pay for their own board and lodging out of their grant. At other flying schools sponsored students have their board and lodging paid for in the composite fee, and so get a smaller personal grant.
    Mr. Longden: But as the courses at all these schools are now the same, does it not seem odd that the students at Hamble get the full university award while students elsewhere get only £156 a year?
    Mrs. Williams: The position in fact is exactly the same. Students who are paid £156 a year, now raised to £163, are in exactly the same position as college of education students whose board and lodging are paid for. Other students are in the same position as university students. The intention of both awards is to give exactly the same maintenance and personal help.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Would the hon. Lady look at the whole situation, because 18 qualified pilots who have just finished their training at Hamble are to be employed as traffic clerks at London Airport, which seems an appalling waste—which will go on unless the nationalised airlines get their figures right?
    Mrs. Williams: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that is basically a question for my colleague. It is a matter for the airlines themselves how many students they will sponsor. It is not a matter for my Department.

    Conference on the Arts (Report)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to receive and to publish the report of the Arts Council on the Conference on the Arts held at Ditchley Park from 14th to 17th July, 1967.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Miss Jennie Lee): The report of the conference was circulated on 20th November to all those who attended. Unfortunately, considerable delay has been caused by the difficulties of bringing together an international editorial committee.
    Mr. Allason: As the conference was concerned with Government sponsorship of the arts, may I ask whether the long delay in publishing the report indicates that there is a certain unwillingness in this direction?
    Miss Lee: On the contrary, I assure the hon. Member that I have a lively vested interest in getting out the report as quickly as possible. I would prefer to tell him privately the source of the delay, but I can assure him it has not come from the Arts Council or from my Department.

    School Buildings, Portsmouth (Representations)
    Mr. Ian Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have been made to him by parents and others about the need for increased grants to improve the general condition of primary and secondary school buildings in the Portsmouth area; what consultations he has had with the authorities concerned; and what steps he proposes to improve the situation.
    Miss Bacon: I have received representations about conditions at Aldermoor Road County Primary School, Purbrook, both from the hon. Member and direct from parents. I am in consultation with the Hampshire authority about the situation and will write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Lloyd: Is the hon. Lady aware that only the slender opportunity presented to her by her next reply to my supplementary question stands between her and the fury of a thousand Portsmouth mothers? Will she use the influence of her Department to see that something is done in this area?
    Miss Bacon: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is one new school in this area included in the 1968–69 programme. I recognise that this is an area of growth were the schools are very full, and I am anxious to help. We are in touch with the local authority, and, of course, we shall have future building programmes.

    Angling Clubs (Assistance)
    Mr. Robert Howarthasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what requests he has received from angling clubs or their associations for assistance to help meet the increasing demand for this pastime; and what reply he has sent.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell): Applications for grants have been received from 28 local angling clubs in England and Wales. Grants totalling £36,136 have been offered to 14 clubs, 9 applications are still under consideration and 5 have been refused.
    Mr. Howarth: I appreciate the scale of assistance which has already been given, but does my hon. Friend accept that this sport is supported by millions of our fellow citizens, and is worthy of even greater support than that already indicated?
    Mr. Howell: I think it is true to say that there are about 3 million anglers in this country, which means that there are more anglers than there are people who participate in all other sports put together. The scheme is there, we constantly draw attention to its provisions, and it is up to those interested to apply if they wish to come within its provisions.
    Mr. Dance: Does the Minister agree that the greatest help would be given to anglers by the pursuit of a policy of doing away with the pollution of rivers?
    Mr. Howell: I believe this to be the case. It is one reason why the Govern-
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    ment sponsored the National Angling Council and hope to assist it in research precisely towards this end.
    Mr. Robert Howarthasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will seek powers to accept applications from angling clubs who are displaced by national or local government developments for compensation and assistance in the search for alternative waters.
    Mr. Denis Howell: No. Sir.
    Mr. Howarth: Will my hon. Friend consider the problems in industrial areas where stretches of canals used by angling clubs increasingly come under the pressure of development? Will he reconsider his Answer in view of those problems?
    Mr. Howell: No. The scheme is designed for the creation of more sports facilities where they do not already exist. We cannot possibly extend it, especially in these days when in most cases there are powers to pay compensation for the removal of existing facilities.
    Mr. Morrison: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied, in view of the great demand, that the potential for angling on reservoirs is being fully exploited?
    Mr. Howell: I hope very much that the regional sports councils, in association with the British Waterworks Association and the local authorities are continuously trying to open up new waters for the large number of people who want these opportunities.

    Ballet Companies (Subsidies)
    Mr. Channonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what is his policy in regard to financial support for the smaller ballet companies;
    (2) if he will take steps to provide more assistance to ballet outside the London area.
    Miss Lee: During 1967–8, ballet companies receiving subsidies from the Arts Council gave nearly 1,300 performances. Over 900 of these were outside the London area.
    To assist them in determining future policy, the Arts Council set up in 1966 a Committee of Inquiry into Opera and Ballet. Its report is likely to be published early next year.
    Mr. Channon: Would the right hon. Lady agree that it is disturbing to learn that grants are being withdrawn from some of the smaller ballet companies which do many performances outside London? Will she look at this matter to make sure that as a result ballet performances outside London do not diminish?
    Miss Lee: I am anxious to see the maximum opportunities outside London, but I would be alarmed if a political Minister were to be the judge in these matters. I am bound to accept the decisions that are made by experts.
    Dr. Gray: Will my right hon. Friend insist that, as a condition of grants, ballet companies should undertake regional tours away from the centres in which they usually perform?
    Miss Lee: I have given the figures, 900 performances out of 1,300, which show that a great deal of this is being done. We are anxious to stimulate still more activity, but we are at the same time concerned to maintain very high standards.

    MONOPOLIES COMMISSION
    Mr. Biffenasked the Prime Minister what proposals he has to transfer responsibility for the Monopolies Commission from the Board of Trade to the Department of Employment and Productivity.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): None, Sir.
    Mr. Biffen: In that case will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to assert that there is not the slightest danger that the National Board for Prices and Incomes will be given any authority over the Monopolies Commission, because the power of Mr. Aubrey Jones has increased, is increasing and ought to he diminished?
    The Prime Minister: I deplore the lack of gallantry on the part of the hon. Gentleman about one of his former Conservative Ministers. I would have thought that, in the period since he became non-political, he has rendered very great service to this country. In reply to the first part of the question, I think
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    it would be generally agreed that the Monopolies Commission properly remains the responsibility of the Board of Trade.
    Mr. Moonman: Putting politics to one side, will not the Prime Minister agree that there is growing anxiety in the trade union movement about the need for a more civilised way to deal with redundancy procedures arising from mergers and takeovers? This would enable a more logical basis to be used for looking at mergers before they take place, and also the redundancies arising from them.
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will know that I answered a Question, I think of his, on that point some months ago, following which something in the nature of a code of conduct has been worked out in relation to redundancy procedures when mergers take place. In the latest big merger, that of English Electric and G.E.C., the new code was invoked and was regarded as generally satisfactory.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Since one problem surrounding the Monopolies Commission is the long delay that affects matters referred to the Commission, will the Prime Minister say when a statement from the Government will be made on the Commission's Report on man-made fibres? Is he aware that this Report has now been in the Minister's hands for nearly nine months and that we still have not had a squeak from him?
    The Prime Minister: I will see that my right hon. Friend takes note of the question of the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that my right hon. Friend has said in the context of delays with regard to the Monopolies Commission Reports that he is urgently studying the matter of possible reforms in Monopolies Commission procedure and will before long make a statement in the House.

    NATIONAL DIVIDEND
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Prime Minister when he will declare the first national dividend.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 5th November, 1968, to a Question by

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    my hon Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser).—[Vol. 772, c. 62.]
    Mr. Ridley: Is the Prime Minister aware that, if there were to be a national dividend, under the policies his Government are pursuing, it would indeed be an economic miracle——
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not interrupt his hon. Friend's supplementary question.
    Mr. Ridley: Will the Prime Minister pay us an interim dividend by promising to be entirely frank in future about the state of the economy, including the value of the £ in our pockets?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman seems to be in a bit of a rut. In reply to the first part of his question, he will know that the reference to the national dividend was in the context of the T.U.C. proposals in their annual report on how much could be afforded on wages. We had one discussion with them last year on the national dividend involved. We shall shortly be having further discussions. With regard to his suggestion of frankness about the state of the economy, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to a significant article in The Times Business News this morning, which, taking apart the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, proved point by point that his statistics were as "phoney" as his arguments.
    Mr. Woodburn: Does it not depend entirely on how one measures the national dividend? If it is in well-being, the people are better off than ever they were. If it is a matter of having committed any fault in this regard, is my right hon. Friend aware that the only one that he and his Government have committed is that they did too much too soon, and people spent the dividend before it was earned?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend has put a serious Question, and I agree with him. As for the definition of the national dividend and the speech from which the phrase was culled by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), it referred to the amount of money which can be afforded for wages, salaries and other income
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    payments out of the increase in productivity. Unfortunately, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have so consistently opposed an incomes policy that they have nothing to contribute to this debate.
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Did not the right hon. Gentleman declare a sort of national dividend on 19th November, 1967, in his memorable broadcast on devaluation, in which he said that the £ here in Britain, or in our pockets or in our purses or in the banks, has not been devalued? It was wonderful.
    The Prime Minister: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will recall that I suggested to his right hon. and hon. Friends the other day that they should read the actual text of that broadcast. I am not sure that that is advice which I could give him.
    Mr. Spriggs: Will my right hon. Friend tell us what was the state of the economy in 1964 when he took over the Administration from the Conservatives?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. We have had ample opportunity for debating that. The significant fact was that the real state of the economy was concealed throughout the election which preceded it.

    MINISTERIAL SPEECHES (CO-ORDINATION)
    Mr. Onslowasked the Prime Minister what machinery he has now established in his administration for coordinating Ministerial speeches in the country.
    The Prime Minister: I dealt with this on Tuesday, Sir, in reply to an almost identical Question from the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell).—[Vol. 774. c. 298.]
    Mr. Onslow: Is the Prime Minister aware that he must be under a misapprehension? Would it not avoid future uncertainty about the duties of the Paymaster-General, as the Cabinet's kennel-maid, if the Prime Minister could arrange for the fine print in her contract to be leaked to the House?
    The Prime Minister: I think that a lot of confusion would be avoided if the hon. Gentleman read the Answers given on 24th October and 12th November.
    Mr. Onslow: I have read them.
    Mr. William Price: Would my right hon. Friend consider extending this advisory service to include Questions tabled by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite? Is he aware that some of us are sick of the same hoary old Questions week after week from half-wits, of whom the hon. Gentleman is a classic example?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Personally, I am not sick of those Questions, despite their repetitious character. What is serious is that hon. Gentlemen opposite who know that a Question has been answered on a number of occasions before are wasting the time of the House and of hon. Members who may have more serious Questions to ask.
    Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that, as he has given the Paymaster-General, in addition to the work of coordinating Ministerial speeches, the responsibility for answering for him as Minister for the Civil Service, we have had the experience in which both sides of the House are dissatisfied because the right hon. Lady finds herself unable to answer for herself? Can he look at this seriously and see whether the position can be adjusted?
    The Prime Minister: That is a fair question, and, when a possible change in the Questions order allows my right hon. Friend to answer for herself, the right hon. Gentleman will find that she will be more than capable of doing it. I agree that yesterday's experience did not work out very well. It was as a result of agreement between the usual channels as to her answering of Questions, and I am sure that the right way would be for the usual channels to get together and consider whether the new Questions order after Christmas should not provide different arrangements so that she can answer Civil Service Questions without derogating from her ability to answer others.

    RHODESIA
    Mr. Juddasked the Prime Minister what representations he has received from Commonwealth Prime Ministers concerning the multilateral nature of the British commitment to Nibmar in Rhodesia; and what replies he has sent.
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will realise that exchanges between Commonwealth Governments must remain confidential.
    Mr. Judd: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that there is a good deal of concern because the Government have had to be facing in two directions at once with their commitment both to Nibmar and the "Fearless" proposals? Will he clarify the issue by withdrawing the "Fearless" proposals?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. We shall not withdraw the proposals, and I explained at great length our reasons for putting forward the "Fearless" proposals and leaving them for acceptance. As for Nibmar, my hon. Friend is well aware of the position as I have explained it, though I know that he does not agree with it. We should need to feel that there had been a substantial change of circumstances to withdraw the Nibmar commitment.
    Sir C. Osborne: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the vast majority of our people hope that he will continue with his patient efforts to get an honourable settlement in Rhodesia and not give way to pressures that may lead to bloodshed in that country?
    The Prime Minister: The pressures which could lead to bloodshed are those which have led, at any rate for the time being, to the rejection of the "Fearless" proposals. This creates an extremely dangerous situation of which the whole House is aware, despite our different views about how we should now go forward. He was right to lay stress on an "honourable" settlement. We shall not be prepared to conclude any agreement which does not thoroughly fulfil the six principles.
    Miss Lestor: Referring to my right hon. Friend's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd), in the event or likelihood of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers rejecting the "Fearless" proposals as not representing those substantial changes regarded by my right hon. Friend as necessary to justify a retreat from Nibmar, would he recommit this House and the country to the Nibmar decision and withdraw the "Fearless" proposals?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend's question is a hypothetical one and does not recognise entirely the nature of Commonwealth conferences, which seek as far as possible to proceed by agreement. We do not take votes. I am aware that there will be strong feeling on Rhodesia and that this may be reflected in our discussions—and will be. I hope that we shall not spend eight days this time on Rhodesia, which is a British responsibility and, at the same time, not have even half an hour to discuss important issues of world affairs covering other parts of Africa and the wider world.

    PUBLIC RECORDS (DISCLOSURE)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether he will relax the rule relating to disclosure of events concerned with Government activities from 30 to 20 years.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Public Records Act, 1967, reduced from 50 to 30 years the period during which public records are, in general, not available for public inspection. No new factor has arisen since the passage of that Act to warrant a further reduction in the closed period.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some eminent political personalities, some deceased and others still alive, have in their publications overcome the restriction by not making direct reference to Cabinet papers but by talking about exposed Cabinet activities? Has not this restriction become a farce? Why should not anyone associated with Cabinet matters 20 years ago expose many of the events that occurred?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend has a point. There have been memoirs, autobiographies and similar works published. There was one last year, I think, which seriously broke all the conventions of collective responsibility and the usual rules and restrictions applied to such publications. I can tell my right hon. Friend that his first Ministerial work is already free from them, because that was in the Government more than 30 years ago. But I had enough difficulty securing agreement on the re-
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    duction to 30 years against the recommendation of the Committee from 50 to 40. He would probably find it difficult to get the all-party agreement which I think is essential and right for a proposal of the kind that he puts forward.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Will the Prime Minister reveal not what has been going on in the last 20 years but what has been happening in the last seven days?
    The Prime Minister: I thought that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his statement in the House on Monday, set out a full account of the Bonn Conference and of the Basle Conference which preceded it.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (CONFERENCE OF PRIME MINISTERS)
    Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister if he will invite the Common Market Prime Ministers to a conference in London.
    The Prime Minister: I have no plans to do so at present.
    Mr. Marten: But as the net cost to the United Kingdom balance of payments of applying the Common Market agricultural arrangements next year is likely to be in the nature of £350 million, can we really afford to go into the Common Market? As economic protectionism is the order of the day now in so many countries, is this not just the moment for the Prime Minister to gather together these people and to suggest a much wider free trade association?
    The Prime Minister: I understand the hon. Gentleman's position on these matters. He has been very consistent in these questions—more than, indeed, have many of us—but the Government and the House have not accepted the force of these arguments. We have always recognised a great difficulty about financing the agricultural programme. There is a growth of agricultural protectionism on the part of the Common Market countries, which is causing concern here as well as elsewhere, and that must be dealt with. But I am not sure that a Common Market Prime Ministers' conference in London would be the right answer.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Since the Foreign Secretary three weeks ago at The Hague was sympathetic to the idea of a very wide conference, will the Prime Minister consider a conference not just of the Six and us, but of the other applicants for entry into the Common Market, and take a wider European view?
    The Prime Minister: Yes. We shall be happy to consider this. Indeed, we put forward this proposal in Vienna as long ago as 1965. W.E.U. provides an excellent forum for discussion between, at any rate, most of the E.F.T.A. countries and the Common Market countries, but up to now the W.E.U. forum has not been treated with the same urgency by the French as by other European countries. We should like to have a discussion of the kind that my right hon. Friend suggests.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Will the Prime Minister ensure that in the event of any such conference, whatever the scope of those attending, room will be found on the agenda for a discussion on common agricultural policy and its financial implications as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten)?
    The Prime Minister: The absence of such a conference has not prevented us from raising the matter in a number of areas and places with Common Market countries. But since I have no plans to set up such a conference, as I said in answer to the original Question, it is obviously a little premature to start answering the right hon. Gentleman's question about what will be on the agenda of such a conference.
    Mr. Jay: If the Prime Minister does not accept the estimate given by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) about the cost to the British balance of payments, may I ask whether he can give us the Government's latest official estimate?
    The Prime Minister: We have not varied the estimate since the one drawn up in the Government of which my right hon. Friend was a Member.
    Several Hon. Members
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that we have two Private Notice Questions, business questions and a statement from the Minister of Defence for
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    Administration before we come to the business of the day. I hope that the House will co-operate with me in getting through these various items fairly speedily.

GIRLINGS LTD. (STRIKE)
Mr. Alan Lee Williams Mr. Alan Lee Williams (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity by Private Notice whether she will make a statement on the continuance of the Girling brake strike.
The Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mrs. Barbara Castle): A stoppage of work involving 22 machine setters and five inspectors who are members of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering and Foundry Workers has been in progress at Girlings Limited, Bromborough, since 11th November.
I understand that the stoppage occurred when machine setters refused to accept an instruction from a charge-hand, who is a member of the Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staffs, to operate an oil valve and the chargehand himself did so.
My Department has been in close touch with the unions and the management since the stoppage began. These discussions culminated in meetings on 20th November, at which it was clear that no immediate settlement of the main issues was possible and, in view of this, I appointed a court of inquiry, under Professor Robertson, to investigate the causes and circumstances of the dispute.
After further discussions the same day on an interim basis for an immediate resumption of work, the A.E.F. agreed to advise its members to resume work immediately. This advice was rejected by the men on strike on 21st November, and they have since confirmed their attitude, despite the fact that the Executive Council of their union has strongly urged them to return to work at once.
Because of the stoppage the company has laid off 500 employees. Since the plant supplies disc brakes for the car industry, production and employment in motor assembly firms are seriously threatened. The Ford Motor Company has announced that 5,000 employees will be laid off from next Monday. I understand that other assembly firms are reviewing the position daily.

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It is tragic that employment, production and exports should be jeopardised by a strike which is being continued against the advice of the union concerned.
The court of inquiry which is holding hearings tomorrow and Saturday will be making a thorough and impartial investigation of the causes and circumstances of the dispute. I therefore strongly urge the men on strike to follow the advice of their union and resume normal working immediately.
Mr. Williams: I thank my right hon. Friend for her reply. I know that she is doing everything possible to settle the dispute. As she rightly states, 5,000 workers, not involved in the dispute, will be laid off on Monday as a result of this stupid inter-union dispute. Could she work out a formula to try to settle the strike and not wait until the result of the inquiry?
Mrs. Castle: We have tried that and we have also tried to find a formula on which work could be resumed pending the outcome of the court of inquiry. We worked out a formula with the management which was acceptable to the A.E.F. Executive, but, unfortunately, it has not been accepted by the men on strike.
I have today spoken to the President of the A.E.F., and I am happy to tell the House that he is at this moment in touch with his local officials with a view to arranging a meeting with the strikers at the earliest possible moment, at which he will urge them to return to work.
Mr. R. Carr: Does not the right hon. Lady feel that this strike is an example which raises an important matter of principle? Does she think that it is right any longer that the legal immunity originally given, and rightly given, to protect unions in disputes with employers should continue to be given to protect unions in disputes with other unions which cause great damage to the country?
Mrs. Castle: We all know the views of the right hon. Gentleman and the party opposite which have been worked out in the document "Fair Deal at Work". I do not believe that the proposals in that document would be of any value in a situation of this kind. Therefore, it is essential to look at these questions completely objectively and constructively.
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That I am doing in the context of the Donovan Report.
Mr. Roy Hughes: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that disputes in factories belonging to this company have been perpetual in the past few months? Will she see that the inquiry focuses attention on the obvious inadequacy of the managements of these factories?
Mrs. Castle: The court of inquiry will be looking into the general complaint about industrial relations in this company, and I am sure that its report will prove of general value.
Mr. Howie: As the widespread ramifications of this strike go far beyond the men immediately involved, can my right hon. Friend say whether the general secretaries or executives of the two unions mainly involved have come together with a view to evolving a common policy towards the strikers and, if not, will she order them to do so?
Mrs. Castle: I do not think that the general secretaries of the two unions have come together. There have been continuous talks in which both unions and the management have been involved. My concern is to get a resumption of work, not to discuss the merits of the dispute. That will be a matter for the court of inquiry.
I am grateful to the President of the A.E.F. for the urgent action that he is taking today. Once again, I appeal to the strikers, through this House, to resume work so that all aspects of this matter can be studied objectively by the court of inquiry.

EDUCATION (SCHOOL HOURS)
Sir Edward Boyle Sir Edward Boyle (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in view of yesterday's tragic accident at Houghtonle-Spring, he will make a statement on the decision by the Durham local authority not to accede to a request that school should start later during the dark mornings.
The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Edward Short): I understand that the Durham local education authority, in agreement with its

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Teachers' Consultative Committee decided recently to reaffirm an earlier decision not to make any change in school hours during the trial period of British Standard Time.
In Circular 23/68 I asked all authorities who had not already done so to consider whether such changes would be desirable during the winter months, but this is a matter for local decision taking account of local circumstances.
May I, Mr. Speaker, say how sorry I am about this little boy? I should like to express to his parents the sympathy of myself, my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) and of the whole House.
Sir E. Boyle: I am sure that the whole House will wish to be associated with the last words of the right hon. Gentleman about this accident, and that it realises the difficulties in which many local authorities are genuinely placed in this matter, but in view of the widespread public concern, especially, I believe, in the North of England, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that the Government will fully evaluate the results of this experiment with British Summer Time all the year round in all its aspects before reaching an absolutely final decision for the future?
Mr. Short: I can certainly give that assurance. As for the accident, it occurred between seven and twelve minutes after the end of lighting-up time. The local authority is obtaining a report from the police, but until they have gone into the accident and analysed it, it is impossible to say whether the degree of darkness was a factor in the accident.
Mr. Leadbitter: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the House is always grieved when accidents to young children occur in this way? I should like to associate myself with my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin). Can my right hon. Friend give me an assurance—because there may be many other factors attributable to this accident—that all aspects of road safety will be discussed with local authorities and the appropriate accident prevention councils?
Mr. Short: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is using all the
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legal means available to him to make known to parents the many ways in which they can ensure the safety of their children going to and returning from school.
Mr. Ronald Bell: Since we are still at the beginning of the dark months, during which this experiment will have its effect on school children and others, will the right hon. Gentleman bring all the influence he can to bear upon his colleagues in the Government to introduce legislation to curtail this disastrous experiment immediately?
Mr. Short: This experiment was a decision of Parliament.
Mr. Dempsey: In view of the fact that children going to school in the mornings in the North now have to wear white armbands to identify themselves to potential scroundrels, will not my right hon. Friend represent to the Home Secretary that the introduction of British Standard Time should be reviewed at the end of one year, rather than our having to wait for three years?
Mr. Short: All these factors were gone into. I would point out that this experiment does not reduce the hours of daylight during the day.
Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the only cogent reason advanced for British Standard Time by the Government was that it was likely to reduce accidents on the roads in the mornings? Since this is proving to be untrue, will he beg his colleagues to reconsider this matter as soon as possible?
Mr. Short: The hon. Member is drawing a conclusion from this very tragic accident which at this stage he has no right whatever to draw.
Mr. Marks: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some cases the danger is being added to by the fact that some local authorities switch off a proportion of their street lighting at midnight and do not switch it on again in the morning? Is he also aware that some motorists leaving home in the half light in the morning do not bother to switch on their lights? Will he and his colleagues urge motoring organisations and local authorities to do something about this?
Mr. Short: My right hon. Friends are doing just this. I hope that both local

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authorities and motorists will listen to my hon. Friend's words and do what they can to ensure that children going to and returning from school do not suffer this kind of accident.
Dame Irene Ward: In view of this tragic accident, can the right hon. Gentleman find out from the Board of Trade or some other source whether there is a shortage of fluorescent material of which, under the circumstances, local authorities and education committees could take advantage? It seems to be the opinion that there is a shortage of this material. If we could do something about it, that, at least, would help parents and education authorities in their efforts to do something to deal with this unfortunate repercussion of the introduction of British Standard Time.
Mr. Short: I have not heard of a shortage of this material. I know that many local authorties and individual schools are providing it for their children.
Mr. Murray: In view of the wide range of opinion and the various views on this matter, is it not possible for my right hon. Friend to call a conference of local education authorities to arrive at a common policy, and also to have a conference of teachers' organisations?
Mr. Short: A common policy on this matter is one thing that we cannot possibly get. I set out in the circular my views on this point, but I realise that it is a matter for decision in view of local circumstances, and one which we must leave to local authorities.
Sir R. Cary: Is it not now beginning to emerge that the House made a mistake in turning to British Standard Time, and that there is a case for a reconsideration of its earlier decision?
Mr. Short: I do not think that there is any evidence that the House has made a mistake.
Mr. English: Will my right hon. Friend represent to the Home Secretary that the only argument orginally adduced for this experiment was trade? Will he represent to his right hon. Friend that that is a quite fallacious argument, since the two biggest trading blocs—the United States
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and the U.S.S.R.—have several time zones apiece?
Mr. Short: All these factors were taken into account both by the Government, in bringing this before the House, and by the House itself.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: Will the Leader of the House kindly state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 2ND DECEMBER—Until 7 p.m., Private Members' Motions.
Afterwards, Second Reading of the Local Government Grants (Social Need) Bill.
Motion on the Import Duties (General) (No. 11) Order.
Resumed debate on the Motion relating to the Highway Code.
TUESDAY, 3RD DECEMBER—Progress on the remaining stages of the Customs (Import Deposits) Bill, which it is hoped to conclude on Wednesday, 4th December.
THURSDAY, 5TH DECEMBER—Supply [4th Allotted Day]:
Motion to take note of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reports from the Committee of Public Accounts in Session 1967–68, and the related Special Report.
Resumed debate on the Prayer Book (Further Provisions) Measure.
FRIDAY, 6TH DECEMBER—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY, 9TH DECEMBER—Supply [5th Allotted Day]:
Debate on a subject to be announced.
Mr. Heath: I am sure that the Leader of the House is aware that there is immense anxiety in the House and in the country about the position of Mr. Anthony Grey, Reuter's correspondent in Peking, and a mounting anger at the revelation of the conditions in which he is being held. Will the Leader of the House therefore ask a Foreign Office Minister—as the Foreign Secretary is still

731
away—to make a statement next week, on an early day if possible, to say what further action the Government are taking to secure Mr. Grey's release?
Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that early next week a statement will also be made about Lord Chalfont's visit to the Falkland Islands, which seems to have raised rather more doubts than it has put at rest?
Mr. Pearl: I note what the right hon. Gentleman says. I agree that the treatment of Mr. Anthony Grey has been deplorable, and I think it right that the House should be informed about this matter. I shall certainly convey the right hon. Gentleman's views to my right hon. Friend.
On the question of the Falkland Islands, again, I will convey the views of the right hon. Gentleman to my right hon. Friend and his desire for a statement next week. I understand that the policy is still as was declared on a previous occasion.
Mr. Milne: Can my right hon. Friend tell me when we can expect a statement from the President of the Board of Trade on the E.F.T.A. Ministerial Council meeting in Vienna and, arising from that, can he arrange for an early debate on the future of Europe in view of the wide anxiety about E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C. groupings?
Mr. Pearl: This matter has been raised since my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade returned. It was the subject of a discussion, and questions have been put to my right hon. Friend on the matter. I should like to consider the question of a wider debate.
Mr. Monro: In view of the undoubted hardship that is being caused in Scotland and the North of England by the imposition of British Standard Time, may we have a debate on it next week?
Mr. Peart: We have noted the comments made by hon. Members. There is a difference of opinion on the matter among Members on both sides of the House. But there can be no debate next week.
Mr. Manuel: With reference to the query of the Leader of the Opposition
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about Mr. Grey being held in China, would by right hon. Friend recognise that there are other prisoners, and that I am particularly interested in the detention over a long period of Captain Will, who lived in my constituency? We can get no information from the Foreign Office as to where he is or how he is being treated. Will my right hon. Friend associate that case and other cases of prisoners with his representations to the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Pearl: My hon. Friend certainly has a valid point which I will convey to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Sandys: May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to Motion No. 54, entitled "The Pound in the Pocket," which is supported by over 100 hon. Members?
[That this House notes that in the economic debate on 25th November, the Leader of the Opposition alleged that the Prime Minister had said that, The £ in the pocket will not be devalued; that the Prime Minister intervened to accuse the Leader of the Opposition of falsification and said: He knows that I did not use those words; and that the text of the Prime Minister's broadcast of 19th November 1967, placed by him in the Library of the House, contains the following passage:
From now on the pound abroad is worth 14 per cent. or so less in terms of other currencies. That doesn't mean of course that the pound here in Britain—in your pocket or purse or in your bank—has been devalued;
and that accordingly this House calls upon the Prime Minister to retract his denial of the use of the words quoted by the Leader of the Opposition.]
Since the Prime Minister's reputation for truthfulness is involved, will the Leader of the House, in accordance with tradition, provide time for a debate?
Mr. Pearl: I have noted that Motion and also the other one, No. 55.
[That this House deplores the fact that the Leader of the Opposition on two occasions within the month of November, 1968, namely, on 1st November and in this House on 25th November, has deliberately, and using quotation marks, has tendentiously attributed phrases to the Prime Minister which he did not use,

733
and, by carefully omitting to refer to the Prime Minister's warning of 19th November, 1967, that 'imports will cost more and that this means higher prices' is trying to perpetuate a false legend; and this House further calls on the right hon. Gentleman to desist from such practices, which are contrary to the established conventions for political interchanges in this country, and to withdraw the false and misleading statements he has made.]
I know that views have been expressed on the Order Paper. This is natural, but I do not think, in view of the fact that we had an economic debate recently, that I could make arrangements for a debate next week.
Mr. Shinwell: If my right hon. Friend should find time next week, or a little later for a debate on the Motion in the name of the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), will be simultaneously provide time for my Motion, No. 55, which is, in effect, an Amendment to that Motion, and which refers to the atrocious, mischievous and dis-graceful behaviour of the Leader of the Opposition?
Mr. Peart: I am aware of the Motion which stands in my right hon. Friend's name. Views have been conveyed to the House through the normal procedure. I note this, but there would not be time for a debate next week.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: Was not the right hon. Gentleman's reply to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about the Falkland Islands somewhat vague? In view of the reports, does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that we are entitled to a statement and possibly a debate next week before the Government's integrity is further impugned and the confidence of the Falkland Islanders further undermined?
Mr. Peart: I assure the hon. Member that I was not being vague. I said that I would convey, rightly and properly, the views of the Leader of the Opposition to my right hon. Friend, and I will do so. I said that, so far as I understand it, the Government's views on the Falkland Islands are as were stated previously. There has been no change. I know that there have been rumours and reports. I will convey the feeling of the House on the matter.
Mr. Coe: Would my right hon. Friend consider arranging an early debate on services in the House, including the provision of the new Parliamentary building?
Mr. Peart: I am aware that this is a very important matter, particularly the Parliamentary building. I will do my best to find time at the earliest possible opportunity.
Mr. Burden: Will the Government afford time in the near future for a debate on the Littlewood Committee's Report, which was made three and a half years ago? There have been various promises at various times which have never been honoured. Would the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that time will be found for a debate in the near future?
Mr. Peart: I should like to consider the point. This is the first time that it has been put to me directly across the Floor of the House.
Mr. C. Pannell: Reverting to the inquiry of my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Mr. Coe), is my right hon. Friend aware that it is over three years since a statement was made of the Government's intentions over the Whitehall development plan, the Martin-Buchanan plan, which, of course, includes provision for that Parliamentary building? Since there is a Question down for the Minister of Public Building and Works next Tuesday, may we have a declaration of Government policy then?
Mr. Peart: I am aware of my right hon. Friend's interest in this very important matter, since it is a Whitehall plan which affects this building. I thought that my reply to my hon. Friend was sympathetic. I will note what my right hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Clark Hutchison: Apart from arranging for a statement on the Falkland Islands next week, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange also for copies of any agreement or understanding between this country and the Argentine concerning the Falklands to be made available to hon. Members?
Mr. Peart: I am aware of the points of view expressed earlier and I will convey them to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Children (Performances) Regulations, which legalise cruelty to children, will soon come into effect and that the House has not had an opportunity to consider them? Would my right hon. Friend therefore consult the Deputy Leader of the House with a view to giving the House an opportunity to consider the Regulations and pronounce on them, and to ask itself whether a grievous mistake has not been made, before they come into effect.
Mr. Peart Mr. Peart I will note carefully what my hon. Friend says and will look into the point. Perhaps he will have a word with me afterwards.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Before deciding to reject the request of my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) for time for a debate on Motion No. 54, did the right hon. Gentleman consult the Prime Minister? Is the House to infer that the Prime Minister is not eager to seize the earliest possible opportunity to defend his reputation in the House——
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is approaching argument rather than a business question.
Mr. Peart: I thought that my reply on that was very precise.
Mr. Bidwell: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that there are now 142 signatures to Motion No. 39, entitled "Racialism"?
[That this House condemns the speech made by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, at Eastbourne on 16th November, and welcomes its immediate repudiation by the Leader of the Opposition; and further calls upon the leaders of the three major parties of state to emphasise yet again in clear and unmistakable terms their commitments to the cause of racial tolerance.]
Will he arrange for an early debate, so that the right hon Member for Wolverhampton, South West (Mr. Powell) can subject his racialist fairy stories to the critical examination—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member may ask for time, but he cannot make the speech which he would wish to make if he got time.
Mr. Peart: I am aware of the very strong feelings of many of my hon. Friends on this matter, but I cannot find time next week.
Mr. R. Carr: In view of the decision of the Prices and Incomes Board, announced this afternoon, in the case of the building and construction industry pay claim, will the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend the First Secretary to make a statement on this matter early next week, in view of the obvious danger to industrial peace involved in forcing workers to accept a reduction in wage rates which they are already receiving?
Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman puts an understandable point of view which I will convey to my right hon. Friend—that, if possible, as soon as possible, she should make a statement to the House. But, of course, there must be talks on this before a statement can be made.
Mr. Rose: Is my right hon. Friend aware that next week will be the fourth anniversary of the last debate in this House on sports and leisure facilities? Would he undertake to provide some time for a full debate on this subject, preferably within the next four years?
Mr. Peart: I am aware that sports and leisure are very important, but I am dealing with next week's business. However, I note what my hon. Friend has said.
Mrs. Ewing: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there will be a debate on the composition of the Commission on the Constitution before the appointments to that Commission are made?
Mr. Peart: No, I cannot give that assurance.
Mr. Judd: When may we expect a statement on the negotiations due to be completed next week on the future of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement?
Mr. Peart: I cannot promise a statement next week, but I know that this is an important matter—I was involved in it myself once—and I will note what my hon. Friend has said.
Sir R. Russell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he must have misunderstood the question of my hon. Friend the

737
Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison), which was, would he make available any agreement or understanding reached between this country and the Argentine over the Falkland Islands?
Mr. Peart: I said that I would convey to my right hon. Friends the feelings of hon. Members on this matter.
Mr. Arthur Davidson: Would my right hon. Friend find time shortly for a debate on monopolies and mergers? Many of us had looked forward to the debate which was due to be held in Opposition time last Monday although we appreciate why they wished to replace it with a slightly more controversial debate.
Mr. Peart: I know that this is a very important matter. I accept what my hon. Friend has said. I have given the business for his week, but I will bear his point in mind.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman find time for a debate on Motion 53?
[That this House, taking note of recent disturbances in the world monetary system which may threaten the growth of world trade, urges Her Majesty's Government to explore with other Governments tie practical possibilities of monetary reform and of the development of an open-ended free trade association of countries with easy access for the products of developing nations.]
This is signed by many hon. Members from both sides of the House and deals with the urgent need for a proper debate and review of the Government's policy on monetary reform and their general trading policy, which quite clearly is misdirected.
Mr. Peart: I am aware of the Motion. I think that it is very important, but I cannot find time next week.
Mr. Orme: Has my right hon. Friend seen my Motion No. 45—
[That this House deplores the fact that the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity is proposing to refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes the first freely negotiated pay agreement reached by the Joint Negotiating Council for the Banking industry despite the consequences to the critical staffing situation which is threatening with
738
collapse this vital service of national un-importance.]—
which deals with the bank employees' pay agreement? If his right hon. Friend is to make a statement on the building workers' claim next week, can she also make a statement on this reference to the Board?
Mr. Peart: As my hon. Friend knows, there is a Question down to my right hon. Friend about this. We had better wait for the reply. I have made a note of what he says.
Mr. Gordon Campbell: In making arrangements for proper time for the Paymaster-General to answer Questions in future, will the Leader of the House ensure that her role as Paymaster-General is not subordinated to her position as Minister for the Civil Service? Is he aware that yesterday a Question which had been No. 1 on the Order Paper for three weeks, on the day on which she was due to answer, materialised as Question No. 51, and was not reached?
Mr. Peart: I am aware of the feeling of many hon. Members on this matter. I think that we had better go on with talks through the usual channels. We will do what is possible.
Mr. Michael Shaw: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he has considered the difficulty in which we shall be placed next week, on Tuesday and Wednesday's business, in collecting Amendments from various branches of industry? Is he aware that at best it looks as though the Amendments will be available only in a starred form for the two-day debate?
Mr. Peart: I am well aware that there are some difficulties here, but this is an urgent Measure.
Mr. Maudling: What are the Government's intentions about introducing legislation relating to the House of Lords?
Mr. Peart: It will not be next week.
Mr. McMaster: If there is to he a statement or a debate next week on the position of Mr. Anthony Grey, will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that it is wide enough to consider the case of George Watt and 12 other British subjects, victimised, and held in prison by

739
the Chinese, without even the benefit of a visit from a member of the British Mission?
Mr. Peart: I am well aware of this, not only as it relates to prisoners in China, as I told my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel). This is a very important matter. I will convey the views of the House to my right hon. Friend.

TERRITORIAL ARMY
Mr. Speaker: Statement. Mr. Reynolds.
Sir T. Beamish: On a point of order. The statement which is about to be made is, as everyone knows, very important and significant. I feel that the House is entitled to know why the Secretary of State for Defence is not making it, instead of a junior Minister.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): Trivial and offensive.
Mr. C. Pannell: Further to that point of order. Are not the words "junior Minister" being used as a derogatory term and in the wrong context here? In the present set-up in the Ministry of Defence, surely this is a senior Minister?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I never thought that the word "junior" was derogatory or unparliamentary.
The Minister of Defence for Administration (Mr. G. W. Reynolds): With permission, as the Minister responsible for personnel matters under the Secretary of State for Defence, I would like to make a statement on the personnel of the Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve.
The Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy of last July explained that we were reviewing the Army reserves. The review has been virtually completed, and I can now inform the House of our main conclusion.
There will be a relatively small increase of some 2,000 in the establishment of TAVR II, mainly for logistic support in our increased N.A.T.O. contribution.
We have decided to cease recruiting "Ever-readies"—the Special Army
740
Volunteer Reserve. The "Ever-readies" were not well recruited and, in any case, we consider that the tasks for which they were designed can now be better carred out by Regulars.
I shall at a later date be making a statement about the future of the Army General Reserve. This is a pool of about 170,000 national Service men, of whom about 15,000 are currently required on mobilisation. We plan to meet this requirement from other sources as soon as we possibly can.
The Regular Reserve will be growing in size over the next few years and this will help, but we shall also have to place greater reliance on the volunteer reserve. To this end we are increasing the establishment of individual volunteers in TAVR II by a further 3,000.
The disbandment of TAVR III—the Territorials—was announced on 16th January this year as part of the process of putting Civil Defence on to a care and maintenance basis. One of the objects of our review was to employ the assets of TAVR III to make good the manning shortfall in TAVR II. We intend to give every encouragement to Territorials to join the TAVR II, and we hope that many of them will do so.
But the influx of Territorials we hope for will be a one-time bonus. We have decided that two permanent changes are necessary.
First, we intend to draw on the recruiting potential of a much wider area by transferring about 100 of the training centres of the Territorials to TAVR II.
Secondly, experience has shown that the amount of full-time training currently required of members of TAVR II with its extensive demands on the spare time of the volunteer has a discouraging effect on the retention of trained men. We have decided to allow a limited number of trained men to undertake, with the agreement of their commanding officers, a rather less onerous training obligation. By thus improving the state of manning, we aim to improve the overall efficiency of volunteer units.
Finally, we intend to establish up to 100 cadres, each of about eight officers, N.C.O.s and men, and each attached to a unit of TAVR II.
These cadres will take some of the peace-time administrative work off the

741
shoulders of the officers and N.C.O.s of the TAVR II units, who will thereby be enabled to concentrate more on their military training.
Mr. Webster: On a point of order. I am trying to keep up with the speed at which the Territorial Army is being reduced. Can the Minister do it more slowly?
Mr. Reynolds: The complaint in the House over the last 10 months is that I have been taking too long. I will, however, proceed a little more slowly for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman who, apparently, cannot keep up with me.
The cadres to which I have referred will take some of the peace-time administrative work off the shoulders of the officers and N.C.O.s of the TAVR II units, who will thereby be enabled to concentrate more on their military training.
They will act as rear parties for those units on mobilisation. In addition, they will provide nuclei around which units could be formed when minor changes are made in the TAVR II order of battle; or, if circumstances were to necessitate, a sudden expansion of reserves; or, if circumstances after mobilisation were to necessitate the formation into units, to tweet a military requirement, of Regular reservists not needed for the Regular Army.
We expect that most if not all of the gintental titles of the former TAVR III units will be preserved by conferring these on the cadres.
We are thus bringing the order of battle of the volunteer reserves up to date on a simplified organisational structure; we are taking steps to make the best use of the assets of TAVR III, and to bring about improvement in the recruiting of TAVR II.
My last word is to the Territorials. I would like to thank them for the service they have given in TAVR III. I would like to express our appreciation of their patience during the past year of uncertainty and to say how much we hope that they will seek to transfer to the volunteers.
Mr. Rippon: Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House deplore his statement, and that we will take an early opportunity to debate it?
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In the light of the belated acceptance in the statement, that there may be a need for a sudden expansion of reserves, how can the Government justify persisting in action which is bound to weaken the whole structure of our reserves and the Territorial Army? Do not the Government yet understand the grave anxiety there is throughout the country about the state of our reserves and this dismemberment of the Territorial Army?
May I put some questions. First, will he explain why we alone of all the N.A.T.O. countries have made the assumption that we need no home defence, and is that still the basis of the Government's policy? Secondly, will he say how far the recent N.A.T.O. discussions and the communique issued in Brussels have changed the Government's plans for the run-down of the forces, particularly in relation to the reserves?
Finally, will he and his colleagues take note that we on this side of the House are firmly pledged to restore the importance of the Territorial Army and of a genuine citizens' volunteer service, for both military and civil purposes?
Mr. Reynolds: As I tried to explain, this reorganisation has been primarily directed to provide for the assets of TAVR III which is being disbanded to be added to the strength of our forces concerned with reinforcing our N.A.T.O. role in Europe. I believe that we shall achieve this. I am not particularly worried—as some are shouting—by suggestions of the destruction of the T.A. or anything else, because I believe that what we are doing really matters and that in the drill halls of the country my statement will be welcomed.
As regards the N.A.T.O. communiqué, there is not a direct connection with my statement, although in the N.A.T.O. Committee we are all concerned with all aspects of defence policy. But we are taking action, and have taken action during the past six months, to anounce the assignment of the Third Division of Parachutists and other military units to SACEUR. What we are now trying to do is to ensure that our reserve forces are built up by the extra numbers required to back the extra number of Regulars we have now committed to SACEUR.
Mr. Shinwell: Was it necessary to bring this action forward at this time?

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We are expecting a debate on defence probably in February next year. Could we not have waited before any actual decision was taken, even if the House had just been informed of these matters but no decision taken until the House debated what kind of reserves are necessary?
If we are to have land forces at all—there are some of my hon. Friends who think that land forces are unnecessary, but that is not my view—those forces must be ample and capable of adopting a role associated with land forces in the international situation. In the circumstances, does not my right hon. Friend think it undesirable to proceed with this action until we have a full debate?
Mr. Reynolds: I agree with my right hon. Friend on the necessity for land forces. The reason for making this statement now is that it arises from the statement on 16th January this year by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister about putting civil defence and home defence on a care and maintenance basis. It took us quite a time—some hon. Members say that it has taken too long—to work out the exact implications of how we were to make sure we had an improvement in respect of our reserve forces actually committed to SACEUR. In fact, we reached these decisions only a day or two ago. and, as we have 10,000 men in drill halls throughout the country at present in units to be disbanded in the near future who were waiting to know what their future is to be, it was only right to give an answer as soon as possible.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, far from local drill halls welcoming his statement, they will greet it with alarm and great disappointment? That will certainly be so in Northampton and in many other counties as well. Surely, if his present statement is based also on his right hon. Friend's statement of 25th July, when he said:
"We can comfort ourselves that the situation between East and West"——
Mr. Speaker: Order. There must be no quotations in supplementary questions.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account that
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this statement appears to be based upon the thinking of the Department when it said that the situation was stable? Since then we have had the events in Czechoslovakia. In the circumstances, ought he not to withdraw the statement that he has made today?
Mr. Reynolds: I have tried to explain, but apparently I must do so again, that a considerable part of the reorganisation of our reserves is directly connected with increased contributions of Regular forces which we have made to N.A.T.O. over the past few months. We are trying to make sure that the TAVR II, the volunteers, are brought up to the necessary strength to be able fully to back B.A.O.R. in any situation which arises in Europe. It is not affected particularly by the events of the past few weeks within N.A.T.O.
Mr. James Davidson: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, although his statement gives welcome evidence that the TAVR II is to be increased by 3,000 —or is it 2,000?; I am not quite sure from the statement, and I should like it to be clarified—it is poor consolation none the less that the Government intend Ito continue the general run-down of reserves?
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us a little more about the intended composition of the cadres? Also, will he say whether the whole idea of the emergency force was considered during the course of the review, in the light of the views expressed by many hon. Members on the need for a force to fulfil ancillary functions and to apply themselves in cases of national, regional and local disaster?
Mr. Reynolds: On the question of numbers, I thought that the statement was clear. If it is not, I apologise. I referred, first, to establishments being increased by 2,000. That is in formed units. I referred later to 3,000 individuals. They are two separate figures. The first is individuals in units, and the second is individuals recruited as individuals for particular jobs.
At this stage, I cannot add to what I said about the cadres, but they are for military purposes connected with our TAVR II units who are, in the main, available for support to our Regular forces in Germany. Their purpose is not

745
connected with the matter of various emergencies raised in the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. Those are matters for others of my right hon. Friends.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that there is an important debate ahead.
Mr. Newens: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, whatever is said by hon. Members opposite about alarm in the drill halls, the vast majority of people will welcome any attempt made by the Government to cut down on expenditure on the Territorial Army or on military matters in general?
Mr. Reynolds: I should not wish to agree or disagree with may hon. Friend on the views of people in the country over this particular matter.
What I must point out, however, is that there is a place in the TAVR II, in the volunteers, for every member of the Territorials, so-called, who is within the appropriate age limit and can pass the necessary medical examinations, and there is a place for several thousand more in order to bring those volunteers up to the strength at which we should like to see them.
Sir Richard Glyn: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that the precise reason why the members of TAVR III are not in TAVR II is that they do not like the way in which TAVR II is administered and they wish to fight, if they are allowed to fight, in the units to which they feel they belong? Further, is he aware that he is utterly destroying the volunteer spirit which has helped Britain to win two world wars?
Mr. Reynolds: By coincidence, I have today seen a letter from the Supreme Commander Allied Forces Europe congratulating a number of volunteer units which took part in recent N.A.T.O. exercises. I cannot, therefore, accept that the spirit of our volunteer military forces has been destroyed. I realise that a lot of men like to serve in their local drill hall, preferably with the local unit which has been there some time, but we have to make sure that we have men in the right type of jobs. It is no use recruiting Yeomanry if we want Ordnance Corps personnel.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there will be a saving and, if there is to be a saving, is not this something which the Opposition have been clamouring for over months past, calling upon the Government to cut their expenditure? Is not that what my right hon. Friend is doing?
Mr. Reynolds: This has really been done in several stages. Originally, there was a saving of nearly £18 million a year; that was from 1st April, 1967. In respect of these particular proposals, there is a saving of about £3 million caused by the disbandment of TAVR III, and there will be an extra expenditure in a full years, if all these proposals are successful, of about 10 million on the TAVR II.
Mr. Ramsden: Now that the Government have belatedly admitted the need for a reserve for expansion, is it not clear that the role for the volunteer forces has now come right back, with the minor exception of the civil defence role, to the original role of the Territorial Army and AVR? Would it not have been much better not to have destroyed those two forces in the first place?
Mr. Reynolds: I must make clear that the original Territorial Army was an army in its own right. What we require today is certain types of units composed of volunteers to fill holes in the order of battle in B.A.O.R. These holes were there when the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for filling them, and the reserves he had were incapable of filling them. We are now reaching a much better position in this respect.
Sir T. Beamish: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that when he says that the disbandment of the Territorial Army will be warmly welcomed in drill halls throughout the country—that was the effect of it—he demonstrates how pathetically out of touch he is with public opinion? Further, is he aware that the only people who will warmly welcome his statement are the Left wing of his own party and the men in the Kremlin?
Mr. Reynolds: I think that it will be warmly welcomed in the vast majority of drill halls because, for the past 10 months, home defence units in 150 drill halls have not known whether their particular drill hall would be closed or

747
whether it would be possible for them to continue serving in a formed military unit in that drill hall. The proposals I have announced will mean the spreading of existing TAVR II units to a larger number of drill halls. There will be TAVR II units of some sort in 120 of those 150 drill halls, and I think that they will all be quite happy.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: In view of the paucity of our reserves, the age of our reserves, their poor recruiting and the need for quick and mobile reserves, will the right hon. Gentleman now stop selling any more drill halls anywhere in the country, as these may be needed to expand the reserves for which he now acknowledges the need?
Mr. Reynolds: Since 1st April, 1967 I have been in process of disposing of about 850 drill halls in various parts of the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] The disposal of those drill halls will continue. Of the 150 I referred to, about 120 will be used, and I am making arrangements to hold about 30 of them in reserve.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the undermining of the nation's voluntary defence reserves which will flow from the Minister's announcement."
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the undermining of the nation's voluntary defence reserves which will flow from the Minister's announcement."
The House will remember that under the revised Standing Order No. 9, agreed to on 14th November, 1967, Mr. Speaker is directed to take into account the several factors set out in the Order but to give no reasons for his decision.
In the light of the new conditions, I have to rule that the hon. Member's submission does not fall within the provisions of the revised Standing Order and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CUSTOMS (IMPORT DEPOSITS) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: May I announce that I have selected the Amendment standing in the names of the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. and hon. Friends:
  That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which requires importers to make interest free loans to Her Majesty's Government at a time when the amount of our resources taken by public expenditure is not being reduced.
  This will not limit the debate in any way.
  4.22 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Harold Lever): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I hope, Mr. Speaker, that it will be for the convenience of the House if we merge the two debates which are due to follow the one after the other, one on the Bill and the other on the Motion for the Order bringing into effect the regulator:
  That the Surcharge on Revenue Duties Order, 1968 (S.I., 1968, No. 1845). dated 22nd November, 1968. a copy of which was laid before this House on that date, be approved.
  I think that this arrangement would meet the general convenience of the House, although, of course, separate Divisions could, presumably, be taken on the Bill and on the regulator, and also, since you have selected it, Mr. Speaker, on the Opposition Amendment.
  Mr. Speaker: I understand the hon. Gentleman's suggestion to be that we take the Bill and the Order together. If the Opposition have no objection, I am agreeable.
  Mr. William Whitelaw Mr. William Whitelaw (Penrith and The Border) indicated assent.
  Mr. Speaker: So be it.
  Mr. Lever: The Bill embodies the import deposits scheme announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 22nd November. The scheme applies, generally speaking, to imports of all goods other than basic food, feeding stuffs, fuel and raw
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  materials, and certain other categories of goods imported mainly from developing countries. Just over one-third of our total imports are covered by the scheme—that is to say, goods valued at just under £3,000 million.
  The effect of the scheme is to compel an importer, before obtaining release of his goods, to provide a deposit in cash of 50 per cent. of the cost of the goods. I will deal briefly with some of the Clauses of the Bill before coming to the general argument upon it.
  Clause 1 is the main provision setting out the framework of the scheme with various ancillary technicalities which are needed to ensure that the deposit fits correctly into the existing system of Customs charges upon imported goods.
  Clause 2 deals with exemptions and reliefs. We relieve consignments of £50 or less and there is relief for personal effects of travellers entering this country, which, I think, will be welcomed by most people as a convenient exemption.
  The two Schedules contain other proposed exemptions and reliefs. Schedule 1 contains a list of goods exempted by reason of their description and Schedule 2 outlines a system of reliefs which will apply to goods of any description if they are imported in the circumstances set out in various paragraphs of the Schedule. Schedule 1 fulfils the Chancellor's undertaking that the deposits will not apply to basic foods, feedingstuffs, fuel or raw materials, or to certain categories of goods that we import mainly from developing countries.
  I shall leave the details of the Bill for more consideration as the debate develops and, no doubt, my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State, who will be replying to the debate, will go into those details if they are matters of concern at this stage to hon. Members.
  Hon. Members will bear in mind that there is no possibility of reducing the exemptions by reason of the Ways and Means Order that we discussed the other day. It will, however, be open to hon. Members to table Amendments which would extend exemptions. That, however. I suggest, is a matter more for Committee than for Second Reading.
  The Bill is intended to bring a selective pressure on liquidity affecting importers

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  and to produce an immediate if marginal effect upon the total of our imports, at a time when the measures which we have taken are being worked through the economy, that will result in an overall balance of payments surplus. They are temporary in impact and in intention, the idea being to make a sharp immediate assistance to our export-import ratio, to give time for the major strategy, which is to bring our exports and imports into balance—and, indeed, into surplus—to take effect. It in no way derogates from that strategy. It is in no way a substitute for that strategy. It is a measure timed to ensure that imports do not get out of hand and tend to come down while that strategy is working.
  It will, of course, be said that people can borrow to cover the deposits that are required and that they may borrow at home and abroad. This was perfectly well taken into account and foreseen by the Government. If people borrow at home, they will be mopping up liquidity which would otherwise be available to finance other consumption or other expenditures. Therefore, the position at home is that we have a credit ceiling which largely impacts upon the banks themselves, although indirectly it may affect the general use of liquidity.
  What is lacking is some means of bringing under even broader control other sources of liquidity than the banks. One of the virtues of the scheme is that in so far as the imports remain at a high level, there will be an automatic pressure upon the general extra bank liquidity that will tend to take the heat off other expenditures to make room for the expenditure that is in certain circumstances necessary for imports.
  To the extent that it reduces imports, there will be a corresponding reduction in the pressure on the extra bank liquidity resulting from the deposits that will be required. It is not, therefore, a defect of the scheme that it will be possible to finance to some extent at home or abroad, with which I will deal presently, the deposits that are required.
  The whole point of the scheme is to have a marginal effect. It is not an embargo on the imports covered by the scheme. It is a scheme intended to apply a selective liquidity pressure, to some
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  extent self-regulating and operating particularly on the non-bank sources of liquidity.
  Mr. Peter Emery: Will the hon. Gentleman answer this question? This applies with greatest hardship to the most efficient. The inefficient firm which has spare liquidity and is not using its money to the best advantage as the Government are encouraging it to, will be able to meet these deposits, but the efficient firm without liquidity and using its money to the full will be hardest hit.
  Mr. Lever: I do not accept the hon. Member's assumption that there is a direct and inevitable correlation between liquidity of companies or individuals and the efficiency of those companies or individuals. I think that there is often a proposition in the reverse argument and I do not think that much weight need be attached to that.
  Sir Cyril Osborne: These duties will bite on £3,000 million worth of imports. To help the House to decide, will the hon. Gentleman say roughly how many imports will be excluded by the operation? What is about the size of this operation? How many imports will be cut out?
  Mr. Lever: I would imagine something approaching £6,000 million will be excluded—[Interruption.] The hon. Member is asking me, as he so often shrewdly does, to commit myself to charlatan predictions about the unknowable. I am bound to tell the hon. Member that the very interesting reading material with which those replies would have provided him, had I been foolish enough to answer those questions, must be denied to him on this occasion.
  I do not know exactly, or even within a wide range, what the effect will be, but I do know that the less effect on reducing imports the more is the effect on reducing extra bank liquidity and the corresponding reduction in other forms of consumption. I am hoping that there will be a significant and marginal effect in terms of imports themselves. I shall be very surprised if there is not such a marginal effect, but the exact amount of it obviously no one can know.
  So far as borrowing abroad is concerned, I can tell hon. Members that,

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  of course, some people may borrow abroad in one form or another. This, again, depends to some extent upon the extent to which this facility is used. Although a number of possible sources of finance have been put forward, it is by no means clear that the volume of funds available from overseas for this purpose will in practice be very large.
  Exchange control is, of course, required for borrowing from non-sterling sources and it has been directed that applications for borrowing from non-sterling sources to finance import deposits mist be submitted to the Bank of England. This will enable us not only to ensure that each application is considered on its merits, but also to know how much business of this kind is done. To the extent that borrowing from abroad does occur, there will be a marginal advantage to the reserves, which is not a bad thing, but to some extent the cash payment which is very normally made in the present circumstances and the withholding of credit which tends to occur, not because of the unreliability of the customer but because of the currency uncertainties of this period—which is not a bad thing—means that some marginal corrective of that tendency is also one of the likely consequences of this scheme.
  Mr. Edward Heath: As far as borrowing abroad is concerned, presumably if a supplier overseas is prepared to grant a British importer a 50 per cent. credit for six months, that automatically does not need reference to the Bank of England. or anything like that?
  Mr. Lever: That is entirely right, and to the extent to which they are prepared to do so over and above existing facilities two things will happen. One is that the scheme will not bite on that particular import and reserves will benefit correspondingly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Temporarily."] Yes, the whole scheme is intended to have a temporary effect and to cover the period until the strategy which has been so clearly and often outlined to the House enables us to come into surplus. That strategy is working. That strategy has reduced the visible deficit between May and the last figures in October—taking a three-monthly average as the Chancellor pointed out—from £88 million to £42 million.
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  If we take invisible exports from it, we have a more startling improvement. If we take £30 million a month for invisible exports, there was a reduction between May and October from £58 million actual deficit on current account to a mere £12 million deficit on current account. That is done by taking three-month averages rather than looking at the one-monthly oscillating figures. So it is working. What we are sure of is that something with an immediate bite will make a marginal improvement in the inflow of imports which will be useful at this stage.
  I want to say a word about the E.F.T.A. and G.A.T.T. situation. I am entirely wedded to the belief that the move to free world trade from restrictions initiated in the G.A.T.T., E.F.T.A. and other efforts we have been making, such as the Kennedy Round, is vital for the prosperity of the world, and to no country is it more vital than our own which is so dependent upon world trade. I should like to take the opportunity of refuting, from whichever side these arguments have come, the notion that there is something unholy in imports and that other people's exports are bad, whereas our exports to other countries are wholesome, desirable, delightful and to be admired in every way. That one-sided attitude leads straight to restrictionism which would threaten the long-term future of world prosperity and threaten more vitally our own country than any other of the major trading countries.
  We have not, by bringing in this scheme, in the slightest degree moved away from our adherence to the principle of liberalising world trade and to our treaty obligations under the G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A. It has been asked: is this scheme legal under E.F.T.A.? I think that there is some confusion of thought on this. Whether or not this scheme is legal under E.F.T.A. is a matter for the E.F.T.A. Ministers to decide. That has not yet been fully considered by them. I should not have thought it appropriate to have discussion in this House on this matter when the tribunal appropriate to decide it has not yet pronounced upon it.
  Mr. John Pardoe: If we pass the Bill today and in Committee and then, a week or two later, E.F.T.A. decides that it is against the

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  E.F.T.A. agreement, what happens to all our decisions?
  Mr. Lever: I suggest that we cross that bridge if and when we come to it. At the moment, as the House has heard, the President of the Board of Trade has informed the E.F.T.A. Ministers and they have so far received this proposal with a great deal of sympathy and understanding, so I do not have the apprehensions which the hon. Member has entertained. On the other hand, I do not want to let any words fall which appear to prejudge the completely free discussion and decision of this matter by the E.F.T.A. Ministers themselves.
  Sir Gerald Nabarro: Will not the hon. Gentleman admit the fact that on the day that this unique scheme was announced at least one responsible E.F.T.A. Minister referred to it as a second breach of faith on the part of the United Kingdom Government the first being the import surcharge scheme of 1964? "Second breach of faith". Are not those very strong words?
  Mr. Lever: Strong as they may be, they have not yet reached my ears. I am aware that the hon. Member has said this and that he believes, as is rather unusual, that there is some authority to corroborate his view, but the point is that I have not heard this and I would want proof of it before I could make a useful comment on it.
  I now turn to the Opposition Amendment, which reads:
  "That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which requires importers to make interest free loans to Her Majesty's Government at a time when the amount of our resources taken by public expenditure is not being reduced."
  I pause when I read that Amendment to reflect that not one single penny piece will be added to or taken away from public expenditure by reason of these import deposits. I assume that anyone in the House who is not financially and economically illiterate will know that that is a cold statement of fact. One must ask why the Opposition think fit to drag in by the hair, as it were, public expenditure. It has nothing whatever to do with the Bill, which happens to be, rightly
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  or wrongly, a Measure intended to help to bring our balance of payments into balance in the short term while the long-term strategy is working.
  Why is the House troubled with this irrelevance? We all know that many right hon. and hon. Members opposite have urged that this scheme be considered. They have urged it in the newspapers and on television. When the Ways and Means Resolution came before the House, there were hon. Members opposite who wanted the scheme extended and there were those who wanted it reduced.
  I can see the difficulties of the party opposite in this schizophrenic mood. We have the commitment of their leaders, through every channel of communication. They have incited newspapers to demand such a scheme, and they have hon. Members on their side who like it so much that they want more of it. They have others, like the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), who are doughty champions of the cause of no restriction of any kind such as the Bill proposes. How to reconcile the tangled threads of contrary opinion in the Conservative Party? The answer was clearly to drag in public expenditure. Whatever other differences hon. Members opposite have, when it comes to civilised public expenditure and vague and generalised attacks on it, there is a uniting point for the Conservative Party.
  Sir G. Nabarro Sir G. Nabarro rose——
  Mr. Peter Blaker Mr. Peter Blaker (Blackpool, South) rose——
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we are discussing the Purchase Tax measure at the same time? The Government are to take £250 million, and we know that when the Supplementary Estimates are introduced, in two months' time, the £250 million will be used for public expenditure.
  Mr. Lever: With my characteristic indiscretion, I shall tell the hon. Gentleman that I advised my right hon. Friend the Government Chief Whip not to take the two together, because of the transparent manoeuvre that would be involved. I said that the idiocy of the Amendment

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  could be glossed over by what would be relevant, the regulator, only if the two measures were taken together. I advised against taking them together so that the Amendment could stand up. stark and naked in its idiocy, to be examined by the House.
  Unhappily, the Chief Whip, who is more concerned with seeing public business proceed, agreed to allow the Opposion a fig leaf. I cannot repudiate what my right hon. Friend has done, and 1 concede that some sort of tattered fig leaf is available to the Opposition by reason of the regulator. But I was dealing with the Amendment to the Bill, and had not even begun to talk about the regulator——
  Mr. Blaker Mr. Blaker rose——
  Sir G. Nabarro: Will the hon. Gentleman——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. I understood that the hen. Gentleman was giving way to the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker)
  Sir G. Nabarro: I cannot see behind me.
  Mt. Blaker: If the Financial Secretary has not noticed all reports in the newspapers, has he at least noticed that General de Gaulle seems to think that public expenditure and its level have something to do with his troubles?
  Mr. Lever: For those who want the General as an example in all domestic and international matters, that remark will have considerable weight. But we shall not carry the debate very far by extending it along those lines.
  We have this extraordinary Amendment before us——
  Mr. Heath: Is it not characteristic of the hon. Gentleman's economic idiocy that he believes, and is now arguing, that imports and exports can be treated quite separately from any other aspects of the economy, including indirect taxation, Purchase Tax and Government expenditure? That stands out as being ridicule us.
  Mr. Lever: I follow the argument. It is a remarkably thin one. What I want from the party opposite is a pronouncement on whether, in the actual circumstances
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  of our country—not the blithe, happy circumstances which we are led to suppose we should have enjoyed under a Conservative Administration, they find this a useful, serious and desirable Measure. It is precisely this question that they find themselves very reluctant to answer, because of their leaders are committed to approving it and have suggested it. Many of their supporters would like to extend it. On the other hand, quite a number of their party would like to oppose it. But all their party are united in wanting, if possible. the drag in public expenditure as the excuse for not passing the Measure.
  Mr. Maurice Macmillan: The Financial Secretary said that the only point of the Measure was to allow the long-term strategy to work. Is he implying that the reduction of public expenditure is not part of his long-term strategy?
  Mr. Lever: I cannot see the relevance of that question. The Bill will deal with the 12 months ahead of us. The public expenditure of the 12 months ahead of us is fixed now, and will not be changed in any circumstances. It could not be changed conveniently and substantially. Therefore, we are dealing with the immediate months ahead. It is dishonest to pretend that the import problems of the months ahead can be dealt with by some extraordinary acrobatics on public expenditure, the kind of absurd extemporisation of the Leader of the Opposition to which we were treated the other day.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: We appreciate that Government expenditure has already been set for a year ahead. But that also applies to the imports of many of those who will suffer as a result of the Measure, and they are contractually bound.
  Mr. Lever: A brute implacability from which the Opposition cannot escape is that this is a Measure to deal with imports as they are now and in the months ahead. Any sensible, rational public expenditure Measure, up or down, will be dealing with a period of at least 12 months ahead. Therefore, the total irrelevance of the Opposition argument, except for the reasons I have given, is obvious to the House.

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  The Conservative leaders and many of their back-bench followers have argued in support of this sort of proposal. But when we introduce it they are not prepared to support it or to deal honestly with its merits. They remind me of a very old story of the time of the food shortages after the war. There were 1,000 cases of tinned salmon being passed from hand to hand among the merchants, starting at £1 a case and moving up to £5, with satisfactory profits in between, until a West End restaurateur bought a consignment. He rang up his supplier and said, "Every single case of salmon is bad." "What?" said the shocked merchant. "You opened them? They were not for eating. They were for buying and selling."
  It is the same with the Conservative Party's proposals when they are in opposition. They are not for eating, they are for political horse trading, for buying and selling. When they are opened, the best thing hon. Members opposite can say is, "What we have been offering is stinking fish." They say that it is not for them to warn the buyer, but for the buyer to use his nose.
  This proposal seems to me to be one of the few put forward by the Opposition to have some reason of merit behind it.
  Mr. Joseph Hiley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Lever: No. I must make progress, because I have to come to interesting aspects of the debate.
  I invite my hon. Friends to reject the Amendment on the simple ground that it is an irrelevant attempt to harness disparate grievances. The Opposition want to fan the indignation of those who will be inconvenienced by the Measure and whose money will lie with the Government, interest-free, for six months. But that is essential for the scheme. I say to those importers that I deeply regret that the necessities of our situation temporarily require us to place some such impediment in the way of their free dealing. I hope that it will not be long before that impediment is removed. It does not do a great public service to fan the flames of ill-feeling that must result from any form of restricting imports, whichever we take. We have taken the lightest possible measure.
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  As the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) has explicitly said, of all the import restriction measures, this is the lightest, the one least likely to provoke retaliation, and the one that can be most readily brought to an end. It is one which fits in most with the specific need we have for a temporary intervention by the Government in this situation of over-liquidity, which it is undoubtedly necessary to reduce in the centres outside the banks while, at the same time, offering the possibility of reductions in the import bill.
  Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries): The hon. Gentleman is treating this matter lightheartedly, yet it will affect small businesses very seriously. What happens to the small businessman who has a large amount of machinery coming from abroad and to whom the bank will not provide an overdraft for the import deposits?
  Mr. Lever: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I do take the matter most seriously. My lightheartedness only arose when I turned to the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman cannot expect that to be treated with seriousness. Of course, there are grave issues, as I have said. I have every sympathy with those importers who are affected, but we must do something in the overall national need to make a marginal restraint upon our liquidity.
  But the hon. Gentleman will find that there will be no one who cannot find the money. We live in a country with the most developed financial mechanism in the world. The man does not pay his deposit in a form which means that it is lost for ever or postponed for an indefinite period. He has a gilt-edged security with a six months' date on it. The most that will happen here, and what is intended to happen, is that a man who really must have the import will go to the inconvenience and modest expense required to obtain finance.
  There will be a marginal advantage, however, in that unnecessary imports and the tendency to over-buy or advance buy will be mitigated or moderated, since such importers will also have to go through the procedures to obtain the necessary finance. Thus, the hon. Gentleman's fears are, by the nature of the scheme, not justified.
  I turn now to the regulator. It is a device which, in present circumstances,

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  will increase revenue by about £250 million in a full year. I want to say why I believe it to be justified. The resources of our country have to be disposed broadly in three ways. We can have domestic private consumption; we can have domestic public consumption; and we can have the seed corn investment necessary to ensure future productivity—that is, capital investment.
  The public investment for this year has been settled. What remains is the competing claims of capital investment and private consumption. Private consumption, in the nature of things, is only regulatable by some such method. The Conservative Government acknowledged that. They did not bring in the regulator as a means of getting money when they suddenly went short of cash. They did not treat it as a method by which they could lay their hands on cash. They wanted the power to bring in tax changes between Budgets in order to have an economic effect; and I make no apology for using the regulator for its only sensible purpose, which is economic to regulate private consumption.
  Public expenditure over the year ahead is now fixed. The question now remains whether we are to allow private consumption to pre-empt the resources required for capital investment. If we do, shall have two effects. One will prejudice our future because our capital investment will not be adequate, and the second will be a tendency also to bring in excessive imports and disturb our prospects of a balance of payments surplus.
  There is no escaping these elementary facts. One cannot try to escape, as the Opposition try to do, by saying, "You need not cut private consumption because, in a generalised and always unspecified way, you can cut public consumption." I notice, however, that the Leader of the Opposition did elaborate a remarkable and bizarre scheme for dealing with agricultural support in a hurry.
  What the Opposition are saying is that we can avoid the self-discipline involved in curbing private domestic consumption without prejudice to our capital investment if only we will make some unspecified cuts in public expenditure. Some of my hon. Friends, too, have the feeling
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  that we can avoid the always disagreeable necessity of curbing private consumption. But they, I am glad to say, do not carry this to the point of wanting to cut desirable public expenditure, and if they did they would at least specify, I am sure, which items they were thinking of.
  But I must tell my hon. Friends, as well as the Opposition, that there is no avoiding the self-discipline. If one wills a particular level of public expenditure, one must accept that, in a particular period, private consumption must not run at a level which prejudices capital investment, for otherwise one merely runs into balance of payments deficits.
  Mr. Michael Foot: I am glad that my hon. Friend admits that we on this side specify what we want to cut. We specified, for example, a cut in the burden of the British Army of the Rhine and got a pledge from the Government that a cut would take place. It has not taken place and the Germans are exploiting the situation. We will continue to specify these matters in trying to persuade the Government to follow up their pledges in the matter.
  Mr. Lever: I will not try to turn this into a defence debate, but I cannot accept the detailed accuracy of what my hon. Friend has said, although I do accept his general purport. We are taking steps to tailor defence expenditure to our resources, and my hon. Friend and the Government know that that cannot be effective for a considerable period. We are dealing now with the immediate present and the next 12 months. The regulator is for a period of only months. This is what we all have to face. There is no escaping the self-discipline. Unless one wants to prejudice the balance of payments, one must accept it.
  Since I have stated this view on the level of public expenditure, I do not want anyone to suppose that, because I am relying on the fact that public expenditure has now been determined for this year and cannot be changed, I regret this level. It would be shameful if, in a country such as ours, with our antiquated hospitals, inadequate schools and inadequate research institutions, and with the need to enlarge educational opportunity, improve health standards and all the host of things done in our social

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  services, we did not prefer to do these things to the miscellany of non-essentials which will be affected by the Bill.
  I make it plain that I do not apologise for this view of public expenditure. But, in addition to the social services expenditure, many other aspects of public expenditure are vital for the satisfactory infrastructure of industry—roads, Government activity in helping exports, and the like. The attitude of the Opposition towards this matter seems to me a great sadness, because I do not really think that compassion or good sense in relation to the country's infrastructure are the monopoly of one party.
  Mr. James Dickens: Those of us on this side who are critical want to see the national productive resources mobilised to the fullest extent to protect the country against short-term balance of payments crises by going for rapid economic expansion and full employment.
  Mr. Lever: These are all generalisations. I am concerned with their accomplishment. What is immediately necessary for their accomplishment is that excessive domestic consumption must be, to a mild extent, moderated so as to allow precisely the development of production in vital areas of exports and the capital investment that are necessary.
  There will be no help from selling portfolios, or substituting in terms of offsetting capital investment abroad, or any of those matters. None of these fantasies can lead us away from the essential need to apply self-discipline. I can only say to my hon. Friends, as they know in the friendliest manner, that it may be true that he who pays the piper calls the tune, but he who calls the tune should be ready to pay the piper. I like the tune which was called, as I have said, with unavowed firmness, but I do not altogether welcome the fact that there is sometimes a reluctance to pay the piper and a tendency to retreat into fantasies of alternative and painless solutions, whereas what is required is the self-discipline which is embodied in the regulator.
  Mr. John Mendelson: My hon. Friend will be aware that it is not
  764
  only some of his hon. Friends who are now putting forward these proposals, but the T.U.C., which has just decided on a statement, with whom his senior colleagues will have to deal in the next fortnight. When he tells us, as other members of the Government have told us, that the expeniture on B.A.O.R. could not have an immediate effect, that is the same intellectual sleight of hand which we have had before. We demanded a reduction two or three years ago, and if the Government had followed that policy then it would be bearing fruit today.
  Mr. Lever: That may be an entirely legitimate criticism of the past, but, alas, I am standing in the present and I have to produce success for our country and the economy by maintaining our public expenditure, which I applaud and defend, by protecting the future of our people by capital investment and by honourably paying our way in the world. That is what I am concerned with now.
  The Government may or may not have adequately reacted to the satisfaction of my hon. Friends in time, but the fact is that they have reacted and, to the extent that they have reacted, assistance will accrue and beyond that, certainly within the limited period ahead, which is what the regulator deals with, it will not accrue.
  I am content to appeal to the people in their more reflective mood, in their more compassionate mood, in their more understanding mood. I can regret it if the Conservative Party seeks to harness the unthinking of the malcontent, or those who cannot see through this problem facing the people. [HON. MEMBERS: "There are a lot of them."] I said that hon. Members opposite may get their support in their unreflective mood and may win many Gallup polls, but it remains to be seen whether they will win an election when people will be in their reflective mood.
  Sir C. Osborne: Have an election!
  Mr. Lever: I cannot deal with indefensible interjections which invite Governments to submit themselves to an election at any moment of time convenient to the Opposition. Not even the hon. Gentleman, with all his influence and cogency, can change the quinquennial act by the stroke of an intervention from the

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  back benches. Our political and constitutional system is well established and well understood by our people.
  We are quite content to stand by what we have done in public expenditure, but we cannot stand by it unless we are equally prepared to take harsh and unpopular measures if necessary, although this is not especially harsh, to ensure that private consumption is adequately sacrificed to allow both public expenditure and capital investment to play their part in achieving first a balance of payments surplus and, secondly, a satisfactory and permanent prosperity for the people.
  5.4 p.m.
  Sir Keith Joseph: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof
  "this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which requires importers to make interest free loans to Her Majesty's Government at a time when the amount of our resources taken by public expenditure is not being reduced."
  Although this afternoon I shall be criticising Government policies and some mistakes for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer must now be bitterly blaming himself—-[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—he was here for a long time and I do not think that he can be criticised for discourtesy—I am not for a moment suggesting that any Chancellor of the Exchequer of this country has an easy job.
  It is now common ground to both sides of the House that devaluation was a defeat for the country, but, being a defeat, it also gave the Government an opportunity to make a fresh start. There was a psychological moment when much could have been done and the theme which we embody in our Amendment and which many of us will enlarge in our speeches is that the Government have missed an opportunity to cut public expenditure and cut it effectively.
  It is said that public expenditure cannot be efficiently cut quickly, and that we know. We know that if an efficient cut is to be made it takes two or three years to be brought into effect. But the Government do not hesitate in an emergency to impose brutal and sudden cuts on private enterprise, as they may well do through the Bill. Why must businesses in the normal commerce of the market
  766
  be forced, as many are, quickly to cut their costs if they are to remain in operation and Governments and Government activities be exempt?
  Surely it is common ground—and the Financial Secretary and his colleagues must acknowledge this—that one of the main components of the problems facing the country is that both parties have allowed many people who could afford to pay reasonable charges for basic necessities to be subsidised The Government's own policy in allowing rents to rise, although perhaps in some cases not as much as would have been sensible. recognises this basic truth. Because we have over-subsidised people who do not need subsidies, we are stifling by heavy taxes the initiative of many who could create wealth at all levels of income.
  The Financial Secretary asked us to recognise reality, but in our turn we ask him to recognise verbally what the Government bit by bit and laboriously have come to recognise, but only inadequately, in their own policies. Is it impossible to cut public expenditure? Are we to be told that by a Government which, perhaps painfully, have cut £1,000 million of public expenditure in the last three years? It is true that the same Government has added back £1,100 million, but that is not the point. They gave way to pressures to increase public expenditure, but they have cut it and shown that it can be done. We therefore reject entirely the argument that it is not possible to cut public expenditure.
  Mr. John Fraser (Norwood): This is a very important matter. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that it is an instrument of Conservative economic policy that some of the country's economic difficulties will be cured by increasing rents?
  Sir K. Joseph: We have said time and again that we think that many people in this country need more help than they are getting and that many people need less help than they are getting. If the Government do not recognise this basic psychological fact, they will continue to stifle enterprise and growth.
  Mr. Roy Roebuck: That may well be so, but will the right hon. Gentleman move from psychology to economics? As I understand it, he

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  is saying that some people in need of help are not getting it and that some who do not need it are getting too much, so his party proposes to transfer one to the other. Will he explain how that will cut public expenditure?
  Sir K. Joseph: It will cut taxation and the need to levy taxation at the margin of earnings which is the crucial point if people are to work better.
  My second point about public expenditure is the excuse of the Chief Secretary and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that all is well because we are "on target". In the words of a highly respected financial journalist, may I "take Mr. Diamond gently by the hand" and remind him that the target of which he is so proud is a target of public expenditure which was proclaimed at the time of the National Plan, a target which may have made sense in the context of a 25 per cent. expected growth in the gross national product over the years 1964 to 1970, but which makes utter nonsense in the present stagnant economy which the Government have created. Surely the Government must recognise that if they allow public expenditure to rise at the originally planned rate of 4¼ per cent. a year at a time when the gross national product is rising on average 2 per cent. a year, then the growth of public expenditure eats into the balance of payments, private investment and consumption. That is why we are blaming them so severely in our Amendment.
  Does the Financial Secretary, in his ingenious or, may I say, disingenuous defence of public expenditure, not recognise that public expenditure is just as productive of imports and consumption as any other sort of expenditure? Why should public expenditure not make its contribution to the balance of payments? It does not do so at the moment under the Government's proposals, and that is why we condemn them in this Amendment.
  Mr. Austen Alban: Is not a good deal of public expenditure in support of industry in the form of relief of taxation? Is not the true increase of public expenditure very much lower than the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, in fact about 1 per cent. a year?
  Sir K. Joseph: I did not take the entire point. [Interruption.] I just did not hear. I see no difference, when it comes to public expenditure, whether it is relief of tax by way of investment allowance, the payment out of money by investment grants or R.E.P., for instance, which is being poured out of the taxpayers' pockets to firms of substance, like Fords and Vauxhall on Merseyside, who certainly do not need help from the taxpayer.
  Mr. Joel Barnett (Heywood and Roy-ton): Is the right hon. Gentleman really arguing that, economically, which is presumably what he is talking about, there is a considerable difference in economic terms between the old investment allowance and the investment grants?
  Sir K. Joseph: Yes, I would say that the investment allowance was infinitely more sensible, since it backed a viable enterprise. Surely the Government benches will recognise that the growth of public expenditure is at twice the rate of the growth of the national economy. That is why we criticise them. They have cut public expenditure—admittedly they have reimposed all that they cut—but they could do it again. They failed to do it adequately and the Bill and the regulator are the results.
  Are the Government achieving the purposes of devaluation? Are they getting within sight of a surplus? The National Institute report today gives the impression that if nothing had been done last Friday there would have been no surplus in 1969, or its calculations. Admittedly its calculations have fluctuated wildly, but now it says that last Friday's proposals will make all the difference and put the country into surplus next year.
  I would only ask my hon. Friends to beware of the pseudo-scientific jargon of the three-monthly moving average which the Chancellor has used. Unless the November deficit or surplus is better than the August deficit on visible trade of £28 million, the next three-monthly moving average will not show us as improving, as the Chancellor proclaimed, but as deteriorating. The country's position, alas, has not responded as quickly or as sharply to devaluation as we wished. Foreign exchange earnings from exports are only just back to where we were before devaluation, and imports have soared

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  in volume and thus in the cost of foreign exchange.
  What is our attitude to this package of the Bill and the regulator? First, we say none of this punishment is deserved by the British people but that it is the fault of the Government. Secondly, we say, and this may seem a blinding glimpse of the obvious, that we are not the Government and if we were, with all our faults, the country would not be in the trans into which this Government have landed us. We are against these measures. Above all we are against the general philosophy and approach of the Government. These measures treat the symptoms and not the disease.
  What is the disease? The disease is wild spending, balanced by wild taxation, much of it violently regressive. The disease is nationalisation, interference, bureaucracy, a fetish for giant firms and indifference to competition. Under this Government, prices policy undermines wages policy, nationalised industry finance undermines the Budget, and the confidence factor undermines everything. I venture to suggest to my hon. and right hon. Friends that within the present strategy there may be no individual change that this Government can produce which will rescue the country. The only solution is to adopt a different approach, to encourage efficiency and enterprise by tax reform, by competition, by trade union law reform, by shrinking the public sector and by better control of public expenditure.
  Because, if all this were being done, while the measures were working, there might be a case for some restraint on importers' credit, I ask my hon. Friends to support the reasoned Amendment on the Customs (Import Deposits) Bill while voting solidly against the Government's general policies resulting in the use of the regulator.
  I come now to the regulator. The Government have been forced to use this because they have not cut public expenditure effectively and sufficiently. They have been forced to use it because they have not increased savings. The Financial Secretary has given me my first point. In his attack on the reasoned Amendment, he conceded that public expenditure was highly relevant to the use of the regulator. But I wish to join issue
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  with the argument employed on public expenditure by the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary. They argued that it was sacrosanct because it served individuals such as pensioners. That was the peroration of the Chief Secretary on Monday evening.
  Of course pensioners have had increases, and we welcome that, but who pays for them? Our argument is that the pensioners themselves are paying for part of those increases, through indirect taxes. The stagnation brought about by the Government has done more harm to the low wage earners and their families than to anyone else, because the low wage earners, indeed all wage earners, have had to meet—the word "regressive" was always used by lion. Gentlemen on this—higher indirect taxes, higher National Insurance contributions, the effect of S.E.T. and now this regulator. We cannot be told that public sector expenditure is sacrosanct because it is effectively compassionate. It ignores, it has allowed many of the people, particularly low wage earners, to suffer badly——
  Mr. John Mendelson Mr. John Mendelson (Penistone) rose——
  Sir K. Joseph: I have given way a great deal.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way the hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
  Sir K. Joseph: Savings——
  Mr. Mendelson Mr. Mendelson rose——
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman is afraid.
  Sir K. Joseph: I am not afraid of the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already asked the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat.
  Sir K. Joseph: The Government have failed to foster savings. Does the House recognise that savings were 8·4 per cent. of personal disposal incomes in 1964 but have fallen now to just over 7 per cent. in the latest quarter, a drop of over £200 million a year, equivalent, or very nearly so, to the yield from the

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  regulator? If the Government had acted on savings earlier, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) has urged time and again, that would have been another way of avoiding the use of this regulator.
  I hope that when the Minister of State comes to reply he will assure us that there is to be no double talk about prices in connection with the use of the regulator. I hope that the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity will accept that the purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in imposing the regulator is to increase prices and that no firm will be criticised if it does that.
  I come to the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Michael Shaw) said during business questions, it has been in the hands of hon. Members for under 48 hours, and I hope that the Chair will accept that starred Amendments will be necessary if we are to represent our constituents in Committee.
  I was going to argue that this is a straightforward protectionist Bill which will hurt the small businessman savagely. But after hearing the Financial Secretary say that the credit system is so perfect that no small businessman need be without the deposit, I accept that, in the Government's view, the Bill will have an absolutely marginal effect on imports. That is what the Financial Secretary suggested. He nods his head. The Government have allowed the newspapers—and, of course, they do not control the newspapers—to present the case for this Bill as if it is the turning point in the balance of payments campaign, as if it will solve all the balance of payments problems. But I am glad that the Financial Secretary recognises that its main purpose evidently is selective liquidity pressure on importers with, it is expected by the Government, only a marginal impact on imports.
  It is important that I should distinguish between this Bill and the Italian scheme, which has no forced loan to the Government in it. All that the Italians did was to say that importers should pay their suppliers within 30 or 90 days of receiving the goods. There is no question of a forced loan interest free to the Government. When my right hon. Friends the
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  Members for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) and Enfield, West commended some form of discouragement of credit for importers, and no more, for the Government's consideration, clearly they had in mind the Italian scheme. The Government, perfectly within their rights, then pointed out in another place that the Italian scheme would make the current balance of payments position marginally worse by accelerating payments across the monetary borders. That was an answer to my right hon. Friends. Now the Government bring in a completely different scheme and therefore cannot rest themselves on the commendation of the quite different scheme used in Italy.
  What is the purpose of this Bill? Small businessmen will find it very difficult indeed to raise the credit which they need to pay the deposits. Small businessmen are sophisticated in many things but not necessarily in the network of finance. The Bill may bring many small businessmen to bankruptcy. The Financial Secretary says that all this is in aid of a marginal benefit to the balance of payments. Are we to believe that the Government will brutally extinguish a large number of small businesses for virtually no benefit to the balance of payments?
  Mr. Harold Lever: The right hon. Gentleman should not quote me partially. I said that it will have a marginal effect, but equally I repudiated the possibility of its bringing many businesses, small, medium or large, to bankruptcy. That is why the consequences will be marginal.
  Sir K. Joseph: One thing which is pretty certain is that the sophisticated large and medium businesses will be able to raise the money either from their suppliers or from the credit network of this country. The people who will be in grave danger are the small businessmen who contribute least to the imports bill. The hon. Gentleman is trying to have it both ways.
  Mr. Hiley Mr. Hiley rose——
  Sir K. Joseph: I have refused to give way to hon. Members opposite. I hate disappointing my hon. Friend, but I stood firm in face of the battering ram from Penistone.
  If the purpose of the Bill is to discourage imports, as the Government clearly

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  intend, it is a tragedy for this country to be reducing competition. It is a tragedy for this country, of all countries, to be contributing to a cut in world trade.
  I cannot accept that the Bill has any part in the strategy which the Financial Secretary declared. The strategy of devaluation is to make exports marginally more profitable than the home trade, but inasmuch as this protection makes the home trade marginally more profitable for some businesses, it cuts sheer across the devaluation strategy. We therefore feel obliged to oppose it.
  A few industries, such as the textile, paper and domestic appliance industries, have, for their own understandable reasons, given the Bill a qualified welcome. But in general there has been a chorus of dismay from large and small firms. The telegrams, letters and telephone calls are pouring in to hon. Members and we shall have to try to ventilate them in Committee.
  Will the Bill achieve its object? We see in the newspapers stories of suppliers' credit being extended. We read about Ireland officially making £25 million available though its banks. We read of Hong Kong doing the same. The ingenuity and energy of businessmen, which should be devoted to the pursuit of the service of the public for profit, is to be diverted and distracted to the sterile pursuit of credit for deposits—all, says the Financial Secretary, for a marginal benefit to the balance of payments. Therefore, it will be primarily a restriction on credit.
  But is it sensible for this country to indulge in temporary artificial relief? If the Bill defers marginally some imports because of the difficulty of finding deposits, if it defers imports till the Bill, we hope, is dropped, the benefit to the balance of payments will be like the artificial short-lived benefit given by cosmetics. This is a cosmetic Bill at best. It does not touch the real problem. The Financial Secretary said time and again that it is temporary and modest. The general result of the Bill may well be that any marginal benefit will have to come to an end just at a time when world trade is turning down, when imports are ready to flood in and when our exports may be doing less well because of world trade.
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  The general thesis of the Opposition on the Bill is that import deposits may be simultaneously damaging to the national interest and ineffective—damaging to the national interest because the big and medium firms, faced with the need to find deposits in a credit squeeze, will almost certainly raid funds which they have earmarked for investment; damaging to the public interest because it will featherbed home producers and bankrupt small businessmen through no fault of their own; damaging to the national interest because it will inflate costs. After all that damage, it may be ineffective because deposit money will be found in one way or another for all but a few of the imports concerned. [Interruption.] That is what the Financial Secretary said. I proposed to denounce the Bill as featherbedding our own producers and therefore damaging in the short and middle term to exporters, but I have had to alter my notes to take account of the claim that it will scarcely cut imports at all.
  The purpose is to decrease liquidity. One would have thought that there were less brutal and more subtle ways of making it possible. The Bill will make the businessmen of this country despair. But for the vigilance of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) and my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) and, be it said to his credit, the quick response of the Financial Secretary, the Government yesterday would have imposed a tax without authority.
  There are several immediate issues which I can deal with very quickly. In Committee we shall demand that serious attention is given to the problem of businesses whose goods are in transit. After all, for them this is retrospective legislation. We shall ask that attention is given to the exemption list, which needs amending to give proper treatment to, for example, chemical intermediates, plywood and to export components. We shall look into the bureaucratic implications of the export relief provisions.
  Everything that this Government touch seems to turn not into gold but into civil servants. We want to know how many civil servants will be employed or transferred to handle the relief provisions and administration of the Bill. We also

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  want to make sure that the Government co-operate with industry in this to make the whole thing as simple as possible. We want to be told clearly about the position in regard to E.F.T.A. and what legal advice the Government have had about the legality or otherwise of what they have done.
  We want to know what effect the Government expect this will have on the balance of payments prospects for 1969—the effect of the whole package announced on Friday and immediately after Bassetlaw, when the hire-purchase restrictions were imposed. In other words, what is the new forecast for 1969 in the light of all this?
  My hon. Friends find the two measures in the light of the failure of the Government to cut the growth of public expenditure at least back to the rate of growth of the economy, repugnant and, probably, self-defeating. The Bill provides a temporary, partial devaluation which the Government say they will reverse soon. We hope that they will. We fear, however, that they are only buying time which Ministers continue to waste without tackling the real problems of the economy.
  Businessmen and people throughout Britain are punch drunk from the battering they have had from the Government. I urge my hon. Friends to vote against the Government tonight.
  5.32 p.m.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: While one would not expect statesmanship from the Opposition at this time, one would have expected a little less cynicism and dishonesty. [Interruption.] The article by Peter Jay in The Times this morning exposed the absurdity of the Opposition case absolutely clearly.
  When the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) talks about public expenditure, he should at least be honest and say that the sort of real and effective cuts he has in mind—indeed intends—are cuts in private consumption. If not, they would not be effective. He should, therefore, let the country be aware that when the Opposition talk about cutting public expenditure by increasing rents, food prices and so on——
  Sir K. Joseph Sir K. Joseph indicated dissent.
  Mr. Barnett: That is the sort of expenditure they would cut. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. lain Macleod) was honest enough to say—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about wages?"]—wages do not come into this—that the sort of cuts hon. Gentlemen opposite have in mind are those I have mentioned. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East should make it clear that he wants to cut private consumption and, even worse, that he wants to cut the private consumption of the worst-off sections of the community.
  Sir C. Osborne Sir C. Osborne rose——
  Mr. Barnett: I trust that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to get into my stride before intervening.
  When I use the word "dishonesty" I intend to spell it out in that sense. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East showed equal dishonesty when replying to an earlier intervention in which he was asked about investment grants as opposed to investment allowances. He knows only too well that, economically, they are effectively the same thing.
  Sir K. Joseph: I entirely agree. I did not understand the question.
  Mr. Barnett: As long as the right hon. Gentleman now agrees that these sort of transfer payments are not increases in public expenditure, then he should revise the attacks he has made in this direction. In that sense he has been dishonest, but as he has conceded the point I am grateful to him.
  Sir C. Osborne: When the hon. Gentleman accuses the Opposition of not facing the fact that cuts in public expenditure mean cuts in personal consumption, is he aware that that is precisely what the Prime Minister said in his famous broadcast, in which he said that prices must go up? That is Government policy today, and that is precisely what the hon. Gentleman is accusing us of supporting.
  Mr. Barnett: It is rather confusing to know in which direction the hon. Gentleman's mind is working. I agree that the effect of Government policy is to increase prices. I have never denied that. Nor have the Government. However, what the Opposition have claimed is that they

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  would out public expenditure instead, when the two are really the same—when real cuts in public expenditure mean cuts in private consumption. I am glad that hon. Gentlemen opposite now accept this, because it is time that the public were aware of it.
  It may be true that continued cuts in private expenditure, private consumption, in the way we have seen them will prove ineffective. It may be true, as the Leader of the Opposition said on Monday, that there is a sort of consumers' revolt going on because people are not prepared to cut their standard of living if they can help it.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite are really saying that because we cannot persuade people to cut their private consumption by this method we should cut it for them by cutting public expenditure, which would directly affect the poorest the most and have a disastrous effect in the longterm on the state of the economy.
  Sir K. Joseph: How can the hon. Gentleman say that when what we are proposing in connection with, for example, rents is that the better-off should pay what they can afford so that there will be more to help those who cannot afford a decent rent?
  Mr. Barnett: The right hon. Gentleman is obviously disturbed about the position.
  Sir K. Joseph: Answer my question.
  Mr. Barnett: The right hon. Gentleman is really saying that he wishes to help the very lowest-paid whose rents he would otherwise increase. I am not clear how he would distinguish between those who are at present receiving Social Security benefits and the others—or would he give this help across the board, remembering that many millions of council house tenants would be affected by his proposals but given no relief whatever? I hope that it is clear to the country just what the Opposition are after.
  In coming to the question of the import deposit scheme, perhaps I should declare my interest as one who professionally advises a number of companies which import a variety of goods. I detest any artificial restriction on trade, but I was delighted once again to hear my right hon. Friend give a transparently
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  honest and realistic assessment of what the scheme is likely to do.
  It seems to me that its greatest effect will be deflationary, but I wonder whether the maximum disturbance and anomalies involved will necessarily be sufficient a reason to go ahead with a scheme of this kind? Hon. Gentlemen opposite need not exaggerate the position of the small businessman. I sometimes think that, in common with the C.B.I., they have little knowledge of how small companies really work.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: That is not fair.
  Mr. Barnett: It is fair because one can only judge from the statements that are made by the people concerned. I was speaking to the director of a small company yesterday. This is a really small firm whose imports are about £100,000 a year. I trust that that is small enough an example for hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Sir K. Joseph Sir K. Joseph indicated dissent.
  Mr. Barnett: At first sight of this scheme, he told me he thought that it was terrible. But then he began to think of the many ways in which money could be raised. I suggest to hon. Gentlemen opposite that if a small businessman inserted an advertisement in the Financial Times saying, "Importer seeks loan. Security, money temporarily on loan to Her Majesty's Customs and Excise" it would be surprising indeed if, with that degree of risk, he was not able to raise as much as he needed. I am not suggesting that small importers should do that, but it is an interesting thought.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: That is no doubt true, but what rate of interest would have to be paid 12 per cent.?
  Mr. Barnett: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated the point to which I was coming, although I am grateful to him for accepting my argument. As I explained, I believe that the result will be deflationary and will not have much effect on imports because most importers will be able to raise the necessary cash.
  That is the point I was making, and when hon. Gentlemen opposite shake their heads they really should understand that when one goes to borrow money a lot depends on whether the money is

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  available, admittedly—[Laughter]—but then much more depends on security—and if one goes, for example, to someone who has funds available, then in purely commercial terms he will prefer to lend to a company on the security of money which will be repaid with certainty in six months than on any other kind of security. Of course, interest enters into this and I shall come to that in a moment, too, but this is one way in which small, medium, large-sized companies will be able to raise funds even under the import deposits scheme. Of course, in the short-term period there will be problems and difficulties and anomalies which will arise along the lines we heard about in the debate the other day, but those will be temporary, and the effect eventually on imports will, in my view, be very small.
  It is already becoming clear that foreign banks will also be prepared to help, as we have heard, by making funds available to their exporters in their countries. So funds will be available in that way. There will be some marginal, short-term effects on the balance of payments in so far as foreign funds go to the Customs.
  Then again, importers will be able to get some assistance by receiving money quicker from customers wanting goods, and by getting extended credit from suppliers.
  Mr. Kenneth Baker: if foreign banks put up the money for companies in their own countries selling to this country it is probable there will be a short-term advantage to the balance of payments, but after six months all that money will go back, together with very high interest rates which importers in this country will have to pay, and so, in effect, the balance of payments on the invisible account will be worse off.
  Mr. Barnett: The hon. Member is anticipating my speech. I was coming to that.
  I have been speaking in the last day or two to some companies, and my impression is that not only will they not be made bankrupt by this scheme but will be increasing their profits. My hon. Friend may be surprised to hear that this is so.
  Sir C. Osborne: So am I.
  Mr. Barnett: The hon. Member opposite may be surprised, too, to hear this, but, in fact, they have been allowed to pass on some of the interest charges already to customers who have agreed to pay them, and they have got allowances from their suppliers against interest they are going to have to pay. This is not an impossible thing. I am surprised to hear hon. Members opposite expressing astonishment.
  Mr. Harold Lever: This is a very interesting possibility. Could we apply the same principle to the regulator to show its interest and attractions for people—that a wholesaler may get an allowance from his importer on the one hand, because of the higher prices at which he will ultimately have to sell goods—[Interruption.] I was asking whether we could apply the same principle to the regulator and in other interesting fields, because people talk about the Government putting on a burden involving an increase in prices. Is it not possible, according to this argument, that the burden, far from adding to the business burden, if we are to apply this logic, will actually encourage business, because it will not only recoup the burden but get a total aggregate of advantage for its profits? Is that what my hon. Friend is saying?
  Mr. Barnett: I would never accuse my hon. Friend of being naïve. That is the last thing in the world I would have thought of accusing him of, but one must understand that the regulator will not be affecting the wholesaler, for it is the retailer who pays the charge to Purchase Tax. If my hon. Friend is assuming that retailers subject to Purchase Tax have not for one single moment thought of adding a little bit of profit even to the additional tax, I am very surprised. In my experience, it has happened.
  The point I wanted to make was that I am not at all sure, because of the ease by which, I think, money will be made available, that the impact will be as selective as has been suggested, because importers will find it easier to borrow money because they are borrowing against money.
  It will have the deflationary effect my hon. Friend referred to because it will be squeezing the money supply by restricting the amount of money available from banks, and thereby it will have a

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  much greater deflationary effect, but not necessarily selectively, on imports. This is the point I was making, and my hon. Friend was implying that it would be far more selective than I think it will be.
  As to a reflationary effect, there would be, it is argued, import substitution. It would increase employment in certain sectors against an increase in unemployment by virtue of the deflationary effects, but it seems to me that that will be slight, too, because import substitution will be very slight. When one is having a scheme of this sort for 12 months it would be surprising indeed if exporters would he prepared to lose their markets for 12 months when all they have to do is to borrow money and the cost is a very small one. So it seems to me that import substitution will be very small.
  Textile mill owners in my area are delighted with the scheme because they believe it will reduce the amount of imported textiles. I shall be surprised if it really reduces the amount of imports of textiles. I know some of the people who import textiles and I shall he very surprised if they are prepared to forgo the margin of profit they get on their imports. Indeed, I have already heard that there have been price increases on imported yarns which will more than compensate them for interest they will have to pay on money they will have to borrow.
  The clothing manufacturer knows that if he seeks replacement of imported yarn or imported designed cloth he will never be able to get it because either the design is not available or the delivery date is much too late.
  There are some serious problems, for example, in the case of clothing manufacturers who have ordered cloth and who have committed themselves to take imported cloth, but they will find the money and will do so. Equally, there is the case of large items of plant which have been ordered, some many months or a year in advance. I can think of one company which has ordered from abroad large items of plant for delivery in the middle or towards the end of 1969, not because they are not patriotic, but simply because they could not get the type of machinery they wanted, and it will find the money to pay for the
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  machine which it needs. It is not a case of the company saying, "We will not buy British", nor is it likely to happen that such a company will, by this method, say, "We will not now buy that foreign machine, we will buy British".
  These are reasons why any reflationary impact of the scheme will be very slight.
  As to the effect on the balance of payments, the National Institute this morning gave us a figure, an estimate "guesstimate" would be a better description—of between £50 million and £125 million. The original import surcharge was 15 per cent., reducing to 10 per cent., and it was reckoned it had reduced imports by perhaps £200 million, but little is known of the accuracy of this, and by the very nature of things one cannot say, but I am not at all sure that it will be anything even remotely like that figure, and the trouble is that whatever the figure it is a distortion of the underlying economic and import situation. That is the trouble with this sort of thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has argued for some time that what he needs is a steady, constant balance of payments surplus of about £500 million a year. I have never gone along with that, and I do not think we need anything remotely like it; nevertheless, this has been his target. He is now trying to achieve a bigger surplus in 1969, which will inevitably reduce in 1970 because of the distortion. The extended foreign credit and the bank loans will inevitably have to be repaid in 1970. The reduction in stocks which might help the 1969 balance of payments situation will be reversed in 1970; equally, the delays in delivery will be reversed in 1970; so there is a distorted effect on the balance of payments.
  I can see the benefit of trying to get into surplus as quickly as possible, and I accept that this might help the balance of payments quickly in the next six months. For that reason I am prepared to go along with him as long as it is recognised just how little is the real benefit. The trouble is that we have gone on for too long imagining that all the people abroad who are looking at our economy will be satisfied with a simple, short-term answer that solves something for a few months and then after that it will be all right.
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: All that the hon. Gentleman is saying, which is so good, implies that he believes that this imposition is for only a year. Has not the hon. Gentleman had some experience from this Government of measures that have been imposed for only a year?
  Mr. Barnett: I do not know how the hon. Gentleman assumes that I believe that; it would be far from stating my feeling on this matter. My view is that it should have been for a longer period, and that it is likely to be. The hon. Gentleman looks surprised, but I'm sure he will not mind if I express an opinion.
  I feel that this has a distorting effect; and import quotas, which have been suggested recently by many of my hon. Friends, and by me back in October, 1964, might have been all right then but would not be all right today for similar reasons. Equally, import quotas can have only short-term effects; they can be imposed only for 12 to 18 months; so that the surplus is boosted artificially and the underlying malaise is not cured.
  World trade at the present time is in a state of flux. With the in-coming American President and new Finance and Economic Ministers, one does not know how the state of world trade will go. At such a stage, even if it is only a marginal risk, the risk of import quotas restricting trade is too great to take. It is certainly too big a risk to take in order to boost the balance of payments surplus for just one year. So I am not in favour either of the alternative of import quotas.
  If I may turn to the details of the Bill, there are some points that need answers, if possible, today. There are anomalies and difficulties which face importers, and they need an answer as quickly as possible. It is easy to make fun of the list of exemptions, as was done on Monday night, but it is most serious to the people involved.
  For example, there is a reference in Clause 1(1) to 50 per cent. of the value. Is the value intended to be net of cash discount, or is it the gross figure? In other words, if an exporter abroad gives a cash discount, does the importer pay 50 per cent. of the cost after deducting the cash discount? On the other hand, if, for example, an importer has an agreement with his customers that he will pass
  784
  on to them, say, 2½ per cent. surcharge, which will account for the interest that they would be paying in order to obtain the goods, will that be allowed after Purchase Tax has been charged on the goods, or will Purchase Tax be charged also on the surcharge?
  I understood my hon. Friend to say the other day that he would be concerned to give relief for people who import goods which will then be made up and re-exported. I would like to know how it is proposed to do that. I know of one man who is within the next few days expecting a delivery of cloth, part of which is for a large export order and part of which is for a home trade order. I would be interested to know how that man can obtain the relief which was spoken of.
  Mr. Burden: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He raises an important point to which the Minister should apply himself. If a customer receives a large quantity of goods, some for export, and he has to impose on those goods for export part of the cost of the extra financing, in many instances he might be put out of the markets. thus reducing our export returns.
  Mr. Barnett: I hope to hear this evening from my hon. Friend an answer to that and the points I have raised.
  Where a foreign hank pays the deposit on behalf of an importer and receives a repayment from H.M. Customs and Excise six months later, I take it that the importer will be allowed to pay in foreign exchange the interest accruing to the foreign bank? In other words, I assume that it will not have to be done in a roundabout way by the foreign bank charging the exporter, who will then add it to the price. I shall be interested to hear from my hon. Friend the answer to that and the other questions I have raised.
  It will be clear that my support for the Bill is somewhat half-hearted. I think that it will have some immediate effect, and for that reason I am prepared to go along with it, although I am not sure that it is worth the trouble of the distortion, administrative problems and anomalies that it creates. On the other hand, I am not too happy about it because I believe that it does not solve anything. It may be, as I said earlier,

  785
  that deflation, cutting private consumption, is not the answer to our economic problem. We have had with successive Governments, not just this Government but the previous Government, for many years, one piece of deflation after another. It would be surprising if somebody were not to ask one day: as it has not worked for so many years, maybe there is another way in which we could run the economy? Or must we have these constant successive deflations indefinitely, each of them having a lesser and lesser effect?
  I would go along with the right hon. Gentleman that it may be that the only way in which consumption can be cut is by cutting public expenditure, but what he and the Opposition are advocating is not cutting public expenditure but cutting private consumption. Let the hon. Gentleman be quite clear; I want to cut public expenditure, but not in the way he suggests. I think we need to take a much closer look, yet again, at defence expenditure. Had we taken decisions to cut defence expenditure back in October, 1964, we might not today be in this position. I know it will be said by some hon. Gentlemen that this will weaken our security, but I sometimes wonder what sort of security it is when it depends on the sort of economy that we have had in recent years. I do not accept this argument.
  If the cuts in public expenditure along the lines suggested by the Opposition are the only way out—cuts that will affect the people we on this side represent, cuts that will affect the whole breadth of the economy, not just in this year but for years ahead, in social services, education and so on—I wonder what sort of security it is that we are defending. I am much concerned that the way in which we have been dealing with constant deflation is not the answer.
  Mr. Peter Mahon: The hon. Gentleman wonders what sort of security it is that we as a country are seeking. Is it not the sort of security that Czechoslovakia would be glad to have?
  Mr. Barnett: I do not dispute that. I am not saying that we should not have any security. That is a complete distortion of what I said. However, if we are to defend our security, what sort
  786
  of price are we prepared to pay? We must ask ourselves that question if we are likely to finish up with an economy and society which is not much better than the Czechoslovakian one.
  For those reasons, I am far from happy about the way in which the Government have handled the economy, with one deflationary measure after another over recent years. I would like to think that, having got this Bill and dealt in the very short term and on the margin with the balance of payments, they will begin at the very least to question whether these constant measures of deflation are the best way of dealing with our economic problems.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: If I understood the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Bartlett), rightly, I think in truth that he is opposed to this Measure. However, he appeared to sit on several fences at the same time and, as he is an accountant, I was somewhat surprised at a number of the questions which he asked the Minister. Then again, he kept referring to this as a deflationary measure, whereas I would have thought that it was inflationary in its effect.
  Like other hon. Members, I ought to declare my interest in the matter, because my businesses will be affected considerably.
  I am strongly against the Bill for the following reasons. I deplore the present trend of the Government, with S.E.T. and now with this Bill, of demanding from business houses and, to some extent, individuals, compulsory lending to the Government free of interest. Here is yet another case of substantial sums of money having to be found to give to the Government for six months with no interest. Although Ministers have been at pains to say that they have no wish to interfere with business generally, by the Bill they are doing so drastically.
  Irrespective of the references which have been made today to the ease of finding money, I would contradict that and say that money is difficult to find, especially for some borrowers, and a 50 per cent. deposit for as long as six months is a fantastic burden to put on anyone's shoulders. The interest costs have to be covered, which, in turn, must

  787
  mean higher prices. While, somehow or other, larger businesses will find ways of raising money, it will hit small businessmen very hard.
  Ever since this Government have been in power they have been delivering virtual knockout blows to some businesses, and the time is coming when they can no longer be absorbed. With this kind of legislation, and the ever-increasing mergers which concern so many these days, tragically the general view is that the days of small businesses are coming to an end. This is a tremendous set back, not only to those involved in such businesses but to the country itself which, in the past, was very proud to claim that its commercial activities were both competitive and progressive.
  What we have been doing lately is putting power in the hands of a few. especially the Government, through nationalisation and their other business ventures, thereby creating, regrettably, dictatorial conditions which are bad for all and not least for the consumer, who is the last person to be considered these days.
  Business houses give enough money to the Government in various ways, most of all through the exorbitant and very complicated taxation systems. But why should they now be expected to give this amount of money to the Government, in whom in the main they have not the slightest confidence, even to look after their money? It is beyond understanding. Furthermore, it will be interesting to know what will be the value of the money when it is returned to them six months later. We all know that it will be worth much less.
  What do the Government intend to do with the money when they get it? Why should business houses take additional knocks of devalued money, as well as meeting the losses arising from having to pay interest on the deposits?
  The effect of this Bill must be to disrupt trade, including exports. As was obvious earlier this week, there has been no careful thought about every detail of the Bill. Exports will be frustrated, because many of the goods which will suffer under this penalty are themselves, in one form or another, reexported subsequently. To have to stand
  788
  the interest costs and find the considerable deposits resulting from this Bill will represent an added burden.
  With the Bill and their other Measures, the Government make it ever more difficult for commerce to continue. Small concerns are going to the wall, and business people find that their enterprises are so interfered with on all counts that many of them, regrettably, turn to seek other interests abroad. The country cannot stand this interference, and this Bill is yet another deplorable case of it. That is why I am so strongly opposed to it. While the Government continue to bring forward measures which affect individual people and the commercial houses, they are doing nothing to cut down their own fantastic expenditure or reduce the Civil Service, which again will be increased substantially from business personnel who will be taken out of production to carry out the work created by the Bill. More civil servants are bound to have to be employed. Can we be told if any estimate has been made of how many are expected to be required?
  In the time that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have been in office, we have had eight Budgets. Now we have this Bill. With these and other moves, the Government are almost doing a yo-yo in economics. There is no stability nowadays, and that makes it impossible for businesses to plan ahead. We get constant serious interruptions, of which this Bill is a typical example. Why cannot the Government get down to some kind of stable planning and leave the business world in peace, at least for a little time ahead?
  Following this last crisis, we have been told by the Government that they expect bank overdrafts to be cut. With the references today to banks loaning the money for the proposed deposits, I would remind the House that the original announcement asked that banks should not be called upon to come to the rescue. The clear effect of the Bill will be to cause overdrafts to rise. How else can the problem be tackled? How else can the demands be met, unless the Government want commercial concerns to go out of business, or unless they want much needed finance intended for other ventures or tied up in exports to be diverted to this purpose?

  789
  As with all rushed legislation, as we have witnessed so often in the last few years, again we have a very muddled Bill. Parliament is churning out legislation which has not been thought out properly. Dealing with the repayment of the deposits, the Bill says that the repayment must go back to the person who makes the payment.
  In businesses like this there are many agents at the ports of entry acting for business houses. They make the payments, being financed by the companies for whom they act. If the money is to go back to those agents and anybody goes bankruptcy en route, business houses will lose their money.
  The Bill is full of anomalies. In its effect on some trades it will be unworkable and, therefore, bad law. The confusion which has been created for all concerned is unbelievable. The banks were not consulted before this move was made. Therefore, they did not know how they were to act. They certainly had the impression that they were not supposed to help in the first place.
  The Customs and Excise people did not know what they were doing. Goods were not being released unless cash was provided. We were told the other day that cash would not be required at the outset, but the Customs and Excise would not release goods unless cash was forthcoming. I spoke to the Customs and Excise on this point yesterday. It was admitted that cash was flowing in very fast and goods were not released except for cash.
  Business people have been given an almost impossible task to resolve with the confusion and lack of knowledge, which is lamentable, but sadly typical of the present Government.
  6.12 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: The hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Frederic Harris) has illustrated a fact which was evident in the debate before: that the Amendment put down by the Opposition has made this debate as wide as the oceans. We could have had a debate on import control—whether it would be effective and whether we wanted it—along the lines that the hon. Gentleman has outlined, but the Opposition, far their own reasons, have put
  790
  down an Amendment which introduces the whole gamut of economic policy.
  I understand that I might be out of order if I tried to discuss population statistics in outer Mongolia, or Tottenham's prospects in the Cup. Apart from that, I think that everything else is in order. As a result of the Opposition Amendment, we are able to have a renewed debate on the whole economic policy of the Government and the country.
  We are in a most extraordinary situation about import control. Many of us have argued for years that there ought to be some sort of import control. Now that we have extracted this modest measure from the 20th-century Richard Cobden who presides over the Board of Trade, we are faced with the Conservative Party, which has been the advocate of protection in one form or another through the centuries, denouncing the Government almost as if it proposed to reintroduce the corn laws.
  A topsy-turvey caricature of the situation has been created. But some people, including many experts outside, believe that import control should have been considered and applied long ago. Looking at the problem which the country has had to face, not merely over the last two or three years but over the last decade or more, the question of how we are to control the massive quantities of imports becomes greater and greater. When I or my hon. Friends say that, it does not mean that we are in favour of establishing an autarchy or fierce forms of protection.
  We want a fair deal for this country. We are the biggest importer in the world. Even if we were to impose some restrictions—particularly these rather marginal restrictions proposed in the Bill—we will still remain proportionately the biggest importer in the world. With the possible exception of Belgium and one or two other countries, we import per head of population probably more than any other major industrial country. Therefore, when we seek to take measures to keep these imports under some form of planned control, it does not lie in the mouths of many of the countries which make their industry and maintain their livelihood by exporting to us on such a scale to complain. We have a right

  791
  to control imports. Therefore, I hope that no one will say, when some of us urge that there should be stricter control over imports, that we are insular and autarchic in proposing action which could be injurious to world trade.
  I agree that it is in our interests to expand the total of world trade, but it is not in our interests to allow great waves of imports to come in a way which destroys our capacity to deal with our balance of payments. That has been the position over many years. That is why many of us regarded it as one of the most fatal steps taken since the war when the Conservative Administration, in 1956 and 1957, lifted exchange controls, removed controls over imports, and opened up the path towards the situation that we now face.
  Eminent economists, headed by Sir Roy Harrod, have long argued that the central feature wrong with our economic position is that we have allowed imports to get out of proportion and that, therefore, we have not been able to deal with one major aspect in our balance of payments. We have thereby imposed on ourselves too heavy a burden in the demand for increased exports.
  Our export record since the end of the war is remarkable. The expansion of exports is bigger than many could have foretold in 1946 when, looking to the future, we were wondering how to deal with our economic problems. But no one who looks at our economy over the past 20 years could deny that the way to deal with the flood of imports was, of course, not to stop it altogether, but to get it in manageable proportions. That is a major issue. I hope that the Government are forced to the position of acknowledging this fact, even in this diffident modest Bill we have before us.
  As I listened to the debate it became ever more modest. First, my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary made his speech with his customary wit and customary wisdom. The first part of that sentence is meant as a compliment, but I am not sure about the second part. At any rate, he made it gracefully and with as full a command of the English language as we always expect from him. He did not take long to persuade us that the Bill was a marginal Bill.
  792
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) had to tear up his speech because he discovered that the Bill was so modest. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) came along and made it more diminutive still. The only Member who thinks that it is a devastating Bill is the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West. However, we do not know whether he is an authority to be accorded the same weight as others who have spoken.
  This is a minor attempt to deal with the major problem of how we are to plan the country's import bill. I should have thought that the Official Opposition would have been prepared to deal with that matter in a way which took some account of our general economic position. They have not done so. They have tried to sabotage the debate by the introduction of this ridiculous Amendment. We all know why they have had to do it. Many hon. Gentlemen opposite, headed by the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), know that the measure is sensible. They have indeed argued for such a measure. Therefore, they were in the dilemma whether they should honestly say that they approved of it. They found that difficult, so they patched their difficulties by trying to transform the debate into one about public expenditure.
  Mr. Blaker: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a fundamental difference between the Italian scheme, about which my right hon. Friend was talking, and the scheme proposed by the Government? Has the hon. Gentleman studied the fundamental difference between the two?
  Mr. Foot: I cannot claim to be an expert on the Italian scheme, but it is still a credit restriction scheme of one form or another. The fact that hon. Gentlemen felt that they wanted some form of scheme, but did not like this one, is not a reason for putting down a reasoned Amendment on another subject against the Bill. That is all the more reason for discussing how this country should control its imports and whether this particular Bill will do the job.
  The Opposition, instead of discharging that duty, for their own reasons, have gone ahead with the Amendment. I am sorry for the right hon. Member for Barnet. He has had a rather distressing

  793
  week. We all feel much sympathy for him. If he is to sustain his position in the higher reaches of the Conservative Party he must overcome his habit of blurting out the truth. He must really have some regard for the susceptibilities of his colleagues. He might take some lessons from the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), or some other hon. Members opposite in how he should restrain himself.
  Confusion has existed on the Opposition Front Bench ever since 1964 on this subject. When the Government first introduced the surcharge the right hon. Member for Barnet said that the Government was quite right to do so. He said that they had to take measures directly affecting the balance of payments. He blurted that out. But within a day or so he had been repudiated by the present Leader of the Opposition who, at that time, was not in the high place that he now occupies. At that time they were all under the benign and insensible leadership of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), with competition going on between the others as to who should succeed as the leader of the Conservative Party.
  At that time the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) was not the man in possession; he was the ardent suitor. He repudiated the whole conception of the right hon. Member for Barnet. The same confusion exists between them four years later.
  Sir C. Osborne: This debate deals with our economic position. If we are to talk about leaders quarrelling, the hon. Gentleman should remember how Mr. Gaitskell and the present Prime Minister quarrelled in Scarborough over defence.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) must not tempt the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) to get out of order.
  Mr. Foot: If the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) is suggesting that there have been quarrels in other parties, I fully acknowledge that fact. Perhaps there will be a further quarrel on this side of the House a little later in my speech, if the hon. Member cares to stay to hear it—if I may offer him that incitement.
  794
  I shall deal with the exact wording of the Amendment and with why there was such confusion among hon. Members opposite about it. There is confusion, because from 1964 until today the right hon. Member for Barnet has taken the view that it is right for the Government to take certain measures to deal with imports directly, whereas the Leader of the Opposition takes an alternative view; indeed, he takes the extraordinary view about this Measure that instead of the Government's introducing it they should have gone to all the E.F.T.A. countries and asked whether they agreed.
  I do not suppose that the E.F.T.A. Ministers would have favoured the Government's taking that course. If the Government had said to the E.F.T.A. Ministers, "Would you mind a Measure like this being introduced, or would you object?" the E.F.T.A. Ministers would say, "We do not like it. We do object." Then if the Government still went ahead and brought in the Measure the E.F.T.A. Ministers, reporting back to their own countries, would be in a much greater difficulty. They would be asked. "To what extent did you object? Did you lay down the law and say, 'You cannot do it?'"
  The idea of the right hon. Member for Bexley that these matters should have been proceeded with only after the agreement of the E.F.T.A. countries had been obtained would have meant that no agreement would have been reached, and that would have caused far greater objection among our allies. The fact that an ex-President of the Board of Trade should advocate such a course indicates that he is not taking the matter seriously.
  Sir Douglas Glover: When we have a treaty with certain nations which involves free trade, have not those nations the right to be consulted before we increase our protective measures?
  Mr. Foot: As I understand, the treaty does not say that. It does not lay it down that there has to be prior agreement to any such proposal.
  The same charge was made against the Government at the time of the imposition of the surcharge. The hon. Member should have listened to the first part of my argument, when I pointed out that this country has a right to a fair

  795
  deal on imports and to fair consideration from countries which are the greatest importers into this country. I do not think that we are getting that fair deal at the moment. It is interesting to see how eager the Opposition are to support the protests of all the other countries. They are friends of every country but their own. A leak from Bonn, a squeak from Copenhagen, or a casual word from Lisbon, or Cape Town—and they are up in arms, saying, "We must hurl that at the Government."
  The Opposition should study the facts. This country is the greatest importer in the world. Even if we apply the import restrictions provided for in the Bill we shall remain the greatest importer, and even if we applied the much more stringent controls which some of us believe to be necessary we would still be the best market for many E.F.T.A. countries. It would come better from some hon. Members opposite if they could screw up their nerve occasionally to say a good word for the rights of this country in these matters instead of adopting their present attitude to the Bill, which can hardly fail to do harm to our economic position.
  The more hon. Members opposite say that it is improper for the Government to introduce a Measure of this kind the more difficult they make it for the Government to get the support of the E.F.T.A. countries to carry through these proposals. That is the matter they should have sorted out in the Shadow Cabinet. The right hon. Member for Barnet should have laid down the law in the Shadow Cabinet. Perhaps he did. Perhaps that is why he has not attended this debate. Perhaps he feels ashamed of the fact that when we are discussing this matter at a critical moment in our economic history his advice has been rejected, and that instead of assisting the Government to carry through a Measure which the majority of hon. Members—not only on this side but on the benches opposite—believe to be necessary to deal with our economic situation they have tried to turn the whole matter into an attack upon the Government—an attack fortified, according to their arguments, by complaints of illegality and impropriety raked up from those who are criticising this country. The Opposition cannot be proud of their conduct in this debate.
  Mr. Harold Lever: It is perhaps worth noting that hon. Members opposite are making complaints of illegality in the House long before anybody in the E.F.T.A. countries has made any such suggestion.
  Mr. David Crouch: The House listens with fascination to the hon. Member's destructive criticism at all times, but will he help the House and the Government Front Bench by being constructive and telling us how he thinks the Government should manage the imports situation?
  Mr. Foot: I can assure the hon. Member that I would not dream of making a purely destructive speech. It is not in my nature to do anything of the sort. I will give to all who may be concerned to hear them my constructive proposals for dealing with the situation, even if I have to speak for longer than I intended.
  I suggest that the Treasury should consult the Ministry of Transport. That Ministry could put into operation much more direct import controls than the country has imposed so far. All goods come into this country through the ports. We have no land frontiers, which means that we can exercise full control. Many other countries do so. We could thus ensure a swifter direct control over selected imports. We could draw up a list and ensure that there was a much more dramatic and swift effect upon the balance of payments if we took direct physical discriminating controls.
  I believe that we should have done it at the beginning in 1964, like many other things which we should have done then and are doing much later. I believe that the Government will be forced around to it, because it is not possible for a great country like ours, for the next 20 or 30 years, to control our balance of payments situation while leaving imports absolutely unplanned. So, on this matter, as on east of Suez, the defence cuts and devaluation, the Government will, in the end, have to accept many of the arguments which have come from this quarter of the House and from no other——
  Mr. Emery Mr. Emery rose——
  Mr. Foot: If I give way too many times, I will exclude other hon. Members.
  Mr. Emery: An accusation was made, both by the hon. Member and by the Financial Secretary, that certain things are being said from these benches before they have been said overseas. Therefore, does the hon. Gentleman agree that Herr Otto Mitterer, the Austrian Minister of Commerce and chairman of the meeting, himself said at the conclusion that the legal state of this matter would have to be looked at——
  Mr. Foot Mr. Foot rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Interventions must be brief.
  Mr. Emery:—by the whole E.F.T.A. Council?
  Mr. Foot: If the hon. Member had been present at the beginning of the debate, he would have heard my hon. Friend deal with that matter——
  Mr. Emery: I was here.
  Mr. Foot: Then the hon. Member could not have heard as accurately as I did what my hon. Friend said. The Financial Secretary is normally most explicit and on this matter was as explicit as usual——
  Mr. Emery: But it was incorrect.
  Mr. Foot: I now turn to the other aspect of the debate, which should not in submerged. In one sense, it has a bigger effect on the economy. That is the operation of the regulator, on which some of us take a very different view from that which we take about import control. On the latter, we would like a real control instead of the marginal control, but on the operation of the regulator, then indeed, as the Financial Secretary explained, he is using a Tory instrument. I do not say that the instrument should never be used and I agree that there are different circumstances in which it should be used, but he was resorting to the usual deflationary method for dealing with the situation and some of us are rootedly opposed to trying to deal with the economic situation in this way for a whole series of reasons. I do not propose to elaborate them in detail, but I will indicate some of them.
  One, of course, is that the operation of the regulator in these circumstances will increase unemployment. The Government do not deny it, although they do not tell us their calculation of the figure.
  798
  and this when unemployment is already shockingly high. I know that, as the Prime Minister has argued, it has come down in the last few months, and we welcome that, but it has not come clown anything like fast enough. We think that the figure is far too high and when we were hoping to see it fall further, the Government seek to take £250 million out of the economy by the regulator. One of the purposes of doing that, and for this deflationary effect, is to increase unemployment.
  That is one reason why I am not prepared to vote for the regulator tonight, and I hope that as many of my hon. Friends as possible will not vote for the Government on the regulator. I should like to see the Government defeated on that question. They have no case for proceeding with it in these circumstances, particularly since there are other measures which can be tried and have not been applied.
  There are measures about public expenditure. Of course, questions of public expenditure are associated with the operation of the regulator. If one could cut other forms of public expenditure, one might not have to use the regulator as much. That part of the argument is accepted. I agree with what my hon. Friend said. We fully support the items of public expenditure that he listed and which the Tories wanted to cut. On that matter, we are at one and it is one of the major gulfs between the political parties.
  But there are many items of highly inflationary public expenditure which a number of us on this side have been arguing for years can be cut more seriously than the Government have yet tried to do. One of the major ones, which I mentioned in an intervention and which is very relevant to this discussion, is the size of the British Army of the Rhine We had a pledge from the previous Chancellor that there would be no more payment across the exchanges for the Rhine Army. This was more than a year and a half ago, at that Dispatch Box, when the present Home Secretary was Chancellor. It has not been translated into effect. We have given way to the Germans on the matter.
  We have argued for a long time that we will have to cut the amount which we are now prepared to spend in Germany. If anyone raises his hands and says that

  799
  this is too outlandish a proposal, we can only refer him to the similar arguments put forward about east of Suez, which were also derided but eventually accepted by the Government.
  There are other measures, also, which can be taken immediately to affect the balance of payments directly, instead of having to operate the regulator. One example is the export of capital, at present on a vast scale and——
  Mr. Harold Lever Mr. Harold Lever indicated dissent.
  Mr. Foot: My hon. Friend shakes his head, but the export of capital from this country is still on an enormous scale, to highly developed countries like Australia and South Africa, because the rate of profit is so high there. The money is still pouring out. The Government say that they cannot take any more direct measures to deal with it, and why? Because, of course, our international creditors lay down as one of their conditions that we should be careful about reimposing any exchange controls——
  Mr. Lever Mr. Lever indicated dissent.
  Mr. Foot: My hon. Friend shakes his head again. He should look at Article 13 of the Letter of Intent sent by the previous Chancellor to the international bankers. It is written out plainly there.
  So there is a series of other measures which could be taken. We say, also, that we could mobilise some of this country's portfolio investments—not to spend them now, but to meet some of the debts so that we should not have to accept the conditions laid down by our international creditors.
  Here then, is a third policy, entirely different from what is proposed on that side and entirely different from what has been indicated by the Government during their four years of office. This policy now commands the support of the Trades Union Congress. The Government received the outline of that policy over a year ago, and this morning or yesterday, according to the newspapers, they have received an up-to-date elaboration of the T.U.C. policy on this matter, which contrasts sharply with the policies pursued by successive Governments in dealing with these problems.
  Our complaint against the Government on this major issue of deflation and the
  800
  use of the regulator and all these other instruments is that they are so terrifyingly orthodox. They use the same methods which have failed before. The right hon. Member for Bexley made a speech at the weekend, in his constituency, I think, in which he said that what we were suffering from at the moment was the results of four years of Socialism. But who can believe that? We have had a continuation of policy. What this country is suffering from is not four years of Socialism, but 17 years of Conservative misrule—yes, 17 years.
  We have had a continuation of the policy of deflation, continued resort to these methods of deflating the economy to deal with the import problem and to deal with the balance of payments. We have had a continuation, in all essentials, of the policies pursued by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. Indeed, it is evident from the Amendment and the controversies on Monday about public expenditure that if, by any grave misfortune for the country, they were ever to be returned to power, they would be operating the same kind of Treasury and Bank of England policies on the major economic fronts as the Government have pursued.
  It is not only the Government whose policies have failed during the last few weeks, but those of the Governor of the Bank of England as well. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite speak about the miscast prophecies of the Government. What about the prophecies of the Governor of the Bank of England? He was saying, only a fortnight ago, that, despite the Government's original mistakes—this in his usual patronising manner—they now had got things on the right lines, and he was going off for another meeting with bankers which would be the quietest he had ever attended. That was only just over a fortnight ago, and that is gentleman whose advice the Government have been taking. I have been urging them for years not to do so; it is exactly the same kind of advice which he gives to the party opposite. What we need is a new policy.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Interventions prolong speeches and many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate.
  Mr. Foot: I want to see the Government operating a Socialist economic

  801
  policy. They have adopted some of our ideas eventually, but they have not been doing it resolutely enough or speedily enough. They must also consider the advice of their supporters and when, for example, the T.U.C. produces an alternative economic policy to the one that has been so determinedly pursued by both sides, they should not treat the matter so lightly.
  One might gather from the eagerness of hon. Gentlemen opposite and some of my hon. Friends to pursue the present policy that it had been a wonderful success; that everything in the garden had turned out splendidly. In fact, it has not. If we continue to think that a major settlement of our affairs can be left to the operation of laissez-faire policy, we will get nowhere. We must not go on thinking that we can carry the huge military burdens of the past, and of sterling, and, at the same time, operate in al entirely free trade world. Our affairs must be seriously planned. If we continue to follow the wrong policies the country, under either Conservative or Labour administration—under Tweedledum or Tweedledee—will never tackle our essential problems.
  That is why some of us plead with the Government again to change their course. That is why some of us make up our minds about how we will vote in the House. On Monday, we voted to repel the attack of the party opposite. We were right to do so. Certainly, the attack of hon. Gentlemen opposite on public expenditure has revealed to the country what would be the nature of their policy. It would be a bitter and vindictive class attack on the great mass of working people. That would be their policy, and it has been spelled out. We therefore rightly voted to repel that onslaught.
  I would willingly vote for this modest measure of import control, although I do not believe that it will achieve much. It is, however, a beginning, and I hope that the Government are at last changing their mind on this and other matters. As for the regulator, however, I urge as many of my hon. Friends as possible to refuse to vote for it, but, instead, to make the Government think again about resorting once more to the old deflationary weapons which, so far from offering a cure, are largely responsible for the difficulties in which we find ourselves.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: It is always interesting to listen to the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) who, on this occasion, made some particularly interesting remarks about the extent of our imports. He might have added that we are in a very different position from a great many countries in that we are a great processing nation and that many of our imports are necessary to maintain a high export level and so earn our living. They are necessary to create the exports on which we live. As we import so much of the food we eat, the Government might now do more to encourage British farmers to produce more food.
  The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale castigated and chided the Opposition for daring to oppose the Government on the import imposition. He spoke as though the Government were a pet poodle and he the loving owner. A little later in his speech he lost his temper, gave it a good kick in the behind and said that under no circumstances would he vote for the use of the regulator. The hon. Gentleman adopts a curious philosophy when he implies that it is utterly wrong for the Opposition to oppose the Government on some measures, but perfectly right for him to flay them whenever it suits him.
  The 50 per cent. import deposit will probably keep out some imports, but, as the Financial Secretary said, on only a temporary basis. However, I fear that it will damage our long-term export prospects much more than the Government envisaged. The very manner in which it was imposed has created bitter resentment among certain countries with which Britain does a substantial amount of export business. It will cause many people abroad to discriminate against us. It will encourage other countries—because they will look upon it as a further indication of the unstable prices of British merchandise; they are bound to rise—to switch their purchases to, for example, Germany, where there is price stability.
  Whatever the Financial Secretary may say about the apparent acceptance of the position by the E.F.T.A. countries, I believe that a chill wind is about to blow

  803
  extremely harshly around the Government over these impositions. One need only consider the way in which they were introduced. Not only were there no consultations, but I understand that the first indication given to the world, including the E.F.T.A. countries, was when the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood at the Dispatch Box and announced that they were to be introduced.
  Do the Government really believe that the E.F.T.A. countries will accept all this without resentment? If they are not showing it openly at present, they are bound to be wondering what might be the next step Her Majesty's Government will take. This is bound to affect our close association with the E.F.T.A. countries and the sense of reliability and confidence which at present exists among them.
  The credibility of Her Majesty's Government at home has long past gone. As a result of what is happening now, in addition to what has happened—particularly since only a few weeks ago Government spokesmen clearly said, "There will be no new freeze"—the credibility of the Government will be equally derelict abroad.
  Although the Chancellor went on television and honestly admitted that these measures were in hand before he went to Bonn, an extraordinary effort is being made by some hon. Gentlemen opposite to imply that what has happened in the last week—the new squeeze—has been due entirely to the international situation that has developed in the last two weeks. If so, it is extraordinary that no country with the exception of France has found it necessary to impose restrictions of this sort.
  The inclusion of the deposit requirement is not only on consumer goods, but will cover a vast range of industrial equipment, much of it of very high cost. Much of it is necessary to enable firms in this country to equip their factories with modern machinery in order to compete with foreigners in export markets. Much of this equipment has been on order for a long time. Much of it is now about to come into the docks and much of it is on the high seas. Very little of it can be cancelled. These firms will now find themselves in a position in
  804
  which they will not have to pay only the full cost of the article to the manufacturer but will have to find another 50 per cent. of value on these high cost capital goods.
  Many small firms which might have a very high export potential and might be doing big export business with low liquidity will find this difficult, if not impossible. How are they to find this extra money? What difficulties will it cause to them?
  Mr. Hiley: It will put prices up.
  Mr. Burden: It will certainly put many prices up to a considerable degree.
  We are told that we must have increased exports of a wide range of goods. The import deposit will make much of the home market much softer for many manufacturers. It will certainly put up the price of imports by at least 4 per cent. Is there any certainty that manufacturers in this country will not turn their eyes to the home market which is much more easily served and in which they can increase their prices? This they will be able to do because there will be less competition from abroad.
  It suits the Chancellor for prices to rise. This is the whole strategy of the Government. It is complete and absolute nonsense for hon. Members opposite to say that it is not. In the debate on the Address on 5th November, the Chancellor, when speaking of the economic situation, said:
  "Some things have gone better than we expected, some worse. Exports are better. Imports are worse. Prices are better, at least lower than was expected and consumption partly as a result is higher which in a sense means worse."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1968 Vol. 772, c. 717.]
  If this means anything at all, it means that the prices and incomes policy of the Government has been an utter deception. The Government, on the one hand, have said they will keep prices down, but in keeping prices down, of course, we must have wage restraint and wages must be kept down. Because prices have been subjected to scrutiny by the Prices and Incomes Board, the Government have claimed that they have kept them down. They then say that they have not risen as much as the Government wanted them to do, and, therefore, have introduced the

  805
  hire-purchase restrictions and these new measures to mop up consumption power. This makes it perfectly clear that the whole prices and incomes policy of the Government has been the biggest confidence trick perpetrated on the public for years. It is now coming home to roost and many hon. Members opposite know it
  Many smaller firms, including general importers of which there are hundreds, will find it quite impossible to provide the extra deposit that is required. I am convinced that many of them will be forced out of business. It would be an interesting exercise if the present Government published monthly or gave in answer to Questions which we could put the number of bankruptcies.
  Mr. Alex Eadie: They are available in the Press.
  Mr. Burden: During the month ahead, as a result of Government measures, there will be a considerable extension of the numbers of bankruptcies. Is this what they want? Many importers in the United Kingdom have firm contracts with overseas suppliers for machinery and merchandise to be delivered in the months ahead. What will happen if those importers cannot find the money necessary for the deposit? They are firm contracts entered into in a proper commercial manner. Surely the overseas suppliers will have the right to take action for damages against the firms in this country if they do not honour their contracts as a result of what the Government are doing.
  What about firms which cannot import goods for which they are committed to supply retailers and others in this country? They might find themselves in a situation in which they could be put into the courts by suppliers abroad and have action taken against them also by firms in this country because of failure to honour contracts. Does the Government propose to give them any protection against the legal hazards they face, as a result of Government action? The deposit will automatically increase the cost of imports by 4 per cent. It will have an effect over the whole range of the economy because of the way in which it will restrict the import of essential machinery required for replacement and re-equipment
  806
  of factories for the purpose of making them more competitive in world markets.
  The use of the regulator will start to impact itself in the weeks ahead and this will mean raging inflation in prices. [Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but I assure them that if they go into a market place and compare prices and talk to women in the shops they will find that this is no laughing matter three months from now. They will find that there is raging inflation. This is one of the reasons why the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale is resisting the imposition of the regulator tonight. He recognises that it will very considerably increase the cost of living. If hon. Members opposite do not accept this, and laugh about it, they are living in a fool's paradise, or the completely ignorant of the economic facts of life.
  The Measure will lead to further wage claims to catch up with increased prices. The Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity will be hard put to it to resist the inevitable wage demands, and if they are met we shall immediately face another round of Government action to mop up the extra purchasing power that has thus been released on to the market and prices will rise again.
  We must try not to restrict trade more. If we are to remain a great exporting nation and retain our position in the world, we must encourage the liberalisation of trade. I do not use the word "liberal" in quite the way that the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) perhaps thinks that I should use it. It is necessary to liberalise trade. This country's prosperity relies not on cutting imports, but on expanding its exports. So far as I can see, the measures before the House will do little, even in the long term, to improve the standard of living of our people and enable them to enjoy a fair measure of imports. The merchandise we produce in our factories must compete with any in the world and expand our export trade and these proposals will not help in that.
  It is a sad day today, when we find that, two years after the Labour Party promised that the standard of living of the people would be increased by 25 per cent. over the next five years, everybody admits that the steps now being taken will reduce the standard still further.
  7.3 p.m.
  Mr. Austen Albu: I have taken part in economic debates for about 20 years, but I do not think that I have ever taken part in a debate in which I have felt that the economic situation was as serious as it is today. I cannot say that the level of the debate so far has recognised that fact. By and large, over the past 20 years the arguments that have taken place, mainly between the two Front Benches and their supporters, about economic judgment and economic measures have not had a great deal of political content.
  I am not a great believer in a Socialist economic policy. The main criticisms of the Government's policy have come from my hon. Friends below the Gangway, particularly today in the very forceful speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). I do not consider his proposals to be in any way Socialist. They were useful contributions to debate, but to claim that in some way they are Socialist or more in keeping with Socialist policy is a misuse of words.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) made a completely misleading attack on Government expenditure. There are genuine differences of political view about the extent to which consumption should be public and the extent to which it should be private. Like all my colleagues, I am in favour of a high level of public expenditure. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East completely misled the House. I do not think that he even understood the case. That was clear when I and my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) intervened. The case against him is that the true rise of Government expenditure for the coming year will be 1 per cent.—very much below the rise of 4 per cent. in production this year—and not the figure which the right hon. Gentleman gave as being higher than the rise in production. This is because we have substituted the selective employment premium and the investment grants for what were previously taxation reliefs. These have exactly the same effect and cannot be considered as Government expenditure.
  The reason for the introduction of Government expenditure into the debate has been made perfectly clear, by nobody
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  more clearly than by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale.
  I want to turn, first, to the question of the regulator and to some of the arguments used, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton. The regulator is not a wicked instrument. It is a means of trying to control the economy in the short term. It would be used wickedly if it were used in a violently deflationary sense to create unemployment, but it is not wickedly used if it is being used to try to keep the economy at a reasonable level.
  What my hon. Friends the Members for Heywood and Royton and Ebbw Vale completely overlooked is the radical change that has been made in the situation by devaluation. It is true, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East and other hon. Members have said, that we have not had any great gain to exports from devaluation, but they were never expected in the short term anyway. We have been getting advantage from the high level of world trade. Every informed commentator agrees that we are now about to get the advantages from devaluation, which inevitably take some time to work their way through the economy.
  Although, I do not entirely like all the things that are being done, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is making absolutely certain that when we get the advantage of devaluation in, first, the expansion of exports, and, second, as has been prophesised by the C.B.I. and the Board of Trade reports, the expansion of investment, there will not be an over-inflationary situation.
  The statement of my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton that we have had nothing but deflationary policies since the end of the war is completely untrue. The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) created a raging inflation by inflationary policies in 1963–64, and left us with a desperate balance of payments deficit when we came to office. We tried to carry on the same policy for the first year or so, unsuccessfully. It was shown, to my mind conclusively, that the policy of breaking through by violent inflation does not work in this country, or cannot work without certain other measures. What we get is a very serious balance of payments deficit. The management of the

  809
  economy is still an art and not a science, and it is a very tricky and delicate matter.
  I do not think that we have had any serious attack on current Government policy from the Opposition. We can, therefore, neglect their arguments.
  I should like to turn to the arguments used by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale and many of my hon. Friends below the Gangway. These are serious arguments and proposals, which must be considered. But they are not Socialist arguments. Many businessmen would love lots of import controls. The less efficient they are, naturally the more they want it. It reduces their competition and increases their profits.
  The Government, I am sorry to say, have had to introduce a measure of import control. Nobody seems to know what its effect will be. I am not surprised. I am always a little reluctant, from experience, to accept the theoretical proposals of economists. In this case, however, there has been previous experience in Italy. Although I am not a great expert on this, I cannot see that in practice and in economic terms there will be all that difference between what the Italians did and what we propose to do. I therefore have some hope that it will have an effect, but I do not know. I am, however, opposed to import controls in general.
  We are facing an extremely serious international situation because of the inadequacies of the arrangements for changing the exchange rate. I am not referring to liquidity, of which too much has been made. I am referring to the larger and much more important problem of adjustment of exchange rates. We cannot continue with a situation in which these rates are kept continuously rigid. We must never again go through the sort of trauma of the last year, particularly the last few weeks, in international financial arrangements and world trade.
  We must get an arrangement by which it is possible to adjust relationships between exchange rates without such crises. But what is now happening is that slowly at first, but acceleratingly, imports are being controlled by countries to save their balance of payments. This will
  810
  reduce the general level of world trade, which can have no other than harmful effects for us. I am not dogmatic about the solution and perhaps we shall have to introduce further measures of import control. But the effect of that in general would be to render us less competitive, postpone the period of recovery and balance and raise the cost of living disastrously. It would generally be harmful to our economy.
  The second proposal is to sell part of our overseas portfolio. One can imagine the great panic overseas, where it would be taken as a further demonstration of crisis. In any case, I am sure that the whole of what we would get would be lost in a short time unless the more fundamental changes we need were brought about. If we simply went on in the same old way, no matter how much we got by selling our overseas portfolio it would all quickly go. Of course, according to the "bursting-through" theory, one would be able to reflate at a substantial rate, which would lead to a great increase in productivity, exports and investment. I can see the case but I do not believe it.
  Mr. Michael Foot: The whole purpose of the operation would be to enable us to go ahead for a number of years with a 6 per cent. increase in production, as outlined in the T.U.C. document.
  Mr. Albu: It is a theory but I do not believe in it. We have had experience with that policy and it proved disastrous.
  The third proposal is the political argument that we should reduce our Armed Forces in Europe. I am totally opposed to this, as I believe are the majority of my hon. and right hon. Friends. I believe that the country would be opposed to it. I could not support a Government who reduced our forces in Europe at the present time. I was very much in favour of reducing our forces east of Suez. We have done so—too late, just as we devalued too late, which is one of the reasons for our present situation, but I am opposed to reducing the defences of Europe, which are also the defences of this country. Our people would not accept a situation in which we went further than we have already done.

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  My hon. Friends below the Gangway and the T.U.C. refuse to recognise the facts. For some reason, both political parties have been guilty in that few Members are willing to tell the people the truth, that the British people's standard of living has risen over the last 20 years at a faster rate than they have earned. That is the reason for the mess we are in, and it is why the Government have had to try and restrain consumption, whether public or private. The Government have restricted public consumption to a real rise of 1 per cent. a year, but earnings are going up by perhaps 8 per cent. a year. We all know that this consumer boom is still going on. I was told today that in my constituency half the stock of a toy shop has already been sold for Christmas.
  When some hon. Members and some trade union officials try to pretend that a terrible deflationary attack on the standards of the working class is going on, they know that they are talking nonsense and are deceiving their own members. Some of my hon. Friends below the Gangway really must get themselves out of the fantasy world in which they live and tell their people the truth.
  Those who heard Mr. Hugh Scanlon, the president of my own union, last night, were deeply shocked by the complete inability he displayed to understand the storm swirling around his head. He betrayed an extraordinary lack of understanding and a completely 19th century attitude towards our problems.
  Unless all hon. Members and leaders of trade unions are willing to tell the people the facts of the situation, we shall never get out of it, whatever colour the Government might be. I may add that what I am saying applies to many industrialists as well. Many of them are not pulling their weight. Many trade unionists are not pulling their weight, although very often it is not true that the trade unions themselves are involved. As we heard today, there are often individual groups of workers who strike for no real reason and against the advice and without the support of their unions.
  If this sort of thing goes on, we shall not get out of our present situation especially if, at the same time, people demand increases which they are not earning.
  812
  There is a serious danger that the country is becoming economically ungovernable. We must face it—if that does occur and there is a further decline in our economic position and in people's belief in the value of money, which, at last, is beginning to lead to a serious inflationary situation of a kind we have never had before, we shall get serious, nasty and irrational political movements in this country, as I warned the House earlier this year. I say to some of my hon. Friends below the Gangway that such irrational movements are not of the Left, but of the Right—xenophobic, racialist and very horrid indeed.
  I have no great economic panacea for the Government, but I say to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides that we must tell the people the truth. As long as we go on kidding them that they can have a standard of living that they have not earned for themselves, we shall remain in this situation.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. John Pardoe: I am with the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) in believing that we are in the midst of an extremely serious and dangerous world economic crisis, particularly in the West. All of those who have seen the figures published in the National Institute's Economic Review must realise just how serious it is. It is becoming increasingly clear that the Government's economic strategy has, up to now at any rate, failed.
  But it would not be anything like so serious for this country, and, indeed, for the West, if the policies being put forward by the likely alternative Government were serious or credible. One sees this from the article by Mr. Peter Jay in The Times today. But I prefer to go back to a few days ago, to a leader in the Evening Standard, which used the same word about Conservative policy, "naked", as the Financial Secretary used about it today. The leader said:
  "The endless harping on public expenditure, rising prices and the evils of incomes control will just not do from a party which can only offer in return a change in farming and housing subsidies entailing higher rents, food prices and social security payments. … Indeed, on the vital question of monetary reform the Government sounded far more open-minded than the Opposition."
  That was the comment of a newspaper not normally associated with the policies

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  of the Government or of the Liberal Party. it is a newspaper which, broadly speaking, is friendly to the Conservative Party.
  Although I am not myself in a position sufficiently to judge exactly who is telling the truth about public expenditure, as a member of the public I am gravely affronted when I read in The Times of today that the Leader of the Oppositional debate in the House has falsified the figures of public expenditure. I should very much like to be told the truth about the public expenditure figures. The right hon. Gentleman said in Monday's debate on the economic situation that between 1963–64 and 1968–69 public expenditure had risen by 60 per cent. This morning we were told that those figures were entirely untrue and that the real figure was about 48 per cent., which compared with an increase of 47 per cent. in the last few years of the Conservative Government. This kind of debating which the Leader of the Conservative Party adopts does nothing to raise the standards of debate in he House or the standards of political honesty.
  It is not insignificant that the Conservatives have only very recently decided whether to oppose the Bill, and even now they have moved an Amendment rather than oppose the Bill root and branch. In the debate on the Ways and Means Resolution earlier this week, there was no mention of the fact that Her Majesty's Opposition intended to oppose the Bill. I wonder what has made them change their minds. It may be that the C.B.I. has exerted some pressure and it may have been that the unequivocal opposition of the Liberal Party to the Bill has made them realise that they could not be left out on a limb. The Amendment is not outright opposition, but my opposition to the Bill is outright. I do not need to be told about public expenditure and interest-free loans, and if I am to be told about public expenditure I want to be told which kinds of public expenditure the Conservatives wish to cut.
  I oppose the Bill because it will restrict world trade; because it will reduce competition and the competitiveness of British industry; because it will do long-term damage to the whole British economy if it works, while if it does not work, it is not
  814
  worth introducing, because it will bring no long-term advantages, while even the short-term advantages are extremely doubtful; because it will adversely affect the gap between the rich and poor nations by restricting their trade with us; and because it will inevitably throw some small business men out of business.
  What will be its effect on the balance of payments? What this country has most to fear is the vicious circle of world protectionism and I fear that we are already in that vicious circle, that it is not something which we are looking at in the future. We are virtually on the edge, if not over the edge already. Squeezing the economy, squeezing liquidity, is not something at which more than one or two can play. If one squeezes one's own economy and one is alone in doing so, it is possible that one can divert a certain part of one's production to the export markets. But we are not alone and many other major industrial countries are squeezing their home economies which will make our exports much harder. I do not believe that this latest squeeze will work any more than previous squeezes under the Labour and Conservative Governments and one reason why I oppose the regulator is that it takes us back to square one all over again, to the same old medicine which has not worked before, with no reason why it should work now.
  Whether actions of this sort break the E.F.T.A. Agreement has often been asked. That has still not been decided, but whether it breaks the letter of the E.F.T.A. Agreement, it certainly breaks the spirit. I re-emphasise the view to which Liberals have always held fast—that there cannot be an effective free trade area, or an effective economic community, unless there is the underlying political unity to go with it, because only with political and constitutional unity behind it can a free trade area have enough sanctions to enforce the rules.
  I have a query in this connection. Yesterday, I received a telephone call from a business man who imports dressed rabbit skins to make into ladies' fur coats for re-export. He buys these skins from Europe and exports them primarily to E.F.T.A. countries. He has been told by the Board of Trade and the Customs and Excise that if he re-exports these fur coats to E.F.T.A. countries he will have to pay the deposit, but that if

  815
  he re-exports them to non-E.F.T.A. countries he will not have to pay the deposit. My immediate reaction to this was that we were living with Alice in Wonderland, or that he must have misinterpreted the message, or that the Board of Trade and the Customs and Excise had gone stark staring bonkers. Having checked up on this matter with the Customs and Excise this morning, I have discovered that what he said was correct, and I should like to know from the Minister of State whether he will undertake to look into this matter—I can give him further details and figures—to make sure that the Government have some method of solving this problem.
  Another problem is the effect of the regulator on prices. I have no doubt that if the import deposit scheme works, it will enable British manufacturers to exploit their monopoly situation and increase prices. What do the Government intend to do to stop prices from being increased for this reason? I should like more assurance than we had about the Selective Employment Tax when we were told that its cost would not be added to our restaurant and hotel bills and so on.
  The effect on small firms will be rather greater than some Labour Members have suggested. In the City Press this week there are some remarks of small City importers, small in the sense that they are not massive firms, not the sort of firms which can stand this raid on their liquidity. The consensus is undoubtedly that many of them will have to go out of business. The reason is that many of these firms have a vast turnover on extremely small capital resources and these are the people who will be very hard hit.
  I should like the Minister of State to say what the deposits will total at most and how that figure compares with present total advances to industry. My calculation is that it will be a substantial chunk of total bank advances to industry, which would tend to show that firms will not be able to raise this kind of cash from that source. I do not believe that importers will be able to get credit from abroad certainly that is the opinion of those whom I have asked, and it is the opinion of the banks. One of the reasons why they will not be able to get credit from overseas suppliers is that there is
  816
  still a fear abroad, incredible though it may seem to us, that sterling is not all it is cracked up to be. While foreign suppliers may well give credit for three months, many of them will jib at giving credit for longer than that, in the fear that at the end of the time the £ will be devalued by 10 or 15 per cent., or whatever it may be. I do not believe such a devaluation is likely to become necessary, but we have failed to convince foreign bankers and foreign merchants of this and they are obstinate in their beliefs.
  If we could guarantee foreign merchants against that by adopting the policy which I outlined in the earlier debate this week, that of the crawling peg, we would guarantee to a certain extent that no immediate and substantial devaluation would take place. I hope that the Government are now convinced that it at any time devaluation were to become necessary—not that they think it will—they will devalue only by the crawling peg method to which I shall refer in a moment.
  I want now to deal with what I regard as the only possible alternative economic strategy for this country. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) dealt in his somewhat protectionist speech with what he called a Socialist alternative economic strategy. I do not believe that that would work, and I should like to outline what I would call the Liberal economic strategy. First, we have to be rededicated to the task of a 4 per cent. growth rate. How? The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, believed that one could grow through the balance of payments crisis, and there was some evidence of this at the time. He believed that by expanding demand we would automatically increase capacity. To a certain extent this is true, because there is no doubt that by expanding demand one increases the tendency of businessmen to invest. Their feeling of security is enhanced. It is only a limited connection, and by expanding demand by say, 4 per cent., although it may be possible to expand the rates of growth of capacity from 3 per cent. to 3·2 per cent. that is still not enough and it only postpones the balance of payments crisis which will inevitably come at some time.
  Is the only alternative to this doctrine of growing through the crisis, which did not work last time and which I suppose

  817
  is unlikely to work again, to accept what has become known as Paishism? This doctrine says that it is impossible to expand demand more rapidly than capacity and therefore we should not try. There is some truth in both these arguments. I want to create a situation in which the helpful effects of expanding demand, the assurance for instance of continuous prosperity, creates security for investment, innovation, for new techniques and the sweeping away of restrictive practices. The only way we can get this is to accept a willingness for a certain level of unemployment, say, 1·75 per cent., certainly never more than 2 per cent.
  I do not honestly regard this as a total disaster provided that within this figure of 1¾ per cent. we are continually in a state of flux, that is that no one is permanently unemployed, but that these people are moving from one industry to another. I do not think that this is socially disastrous. In a modern technological society I believe it to be inevitable and even desirable. It will also be necessary under this strategy to act directly on the balance of payments. I have already made it clear that I totally discard the way in which the Government have chosen to act upon the balance of payments.
  The only feasible way to act immediately on the balance of payments is to accept the need to adjust exchange rates gradually, without the sort of crisis which one got with the French devaluation, the sort of experiences which the Germans had and which we have had. If all currencies are in equilibrium it is quite possible to go to the floating exchange rate. In the present situation of gross dis-equilibrium, the floating exchange rate would inevitably mean a very sharp re-adjustment. The mark would go up very substantially, presumably the pound, the franc, the dollar and lira, and all other points west would sink pretty abysmally. What is needed now is a scheme to bring about this equilibrium gradually.
  There is nothing magical about existing rates of exchange. It is quite obvious that devaluation may have to come for any currency, or revaluation for that matter. The scheme that I am outlining, the scheme of the crawling peg, applies equally to devaluation as to revaluation. It is undesirable that any future changes
  818
  needed to correct the fundamental disequilibrium are carried out suddenly and immediately. It is highly desirable that they should be carried out gradually, and we have suggested, with Professor Meade, to whom I give credit for this originally, by not more than 1/26th of one per cent. per week.
  If this had been done in 1967 we should have escaped the trauma of our own sudden devaluation, France would have found devaluation very much easier to accept and even Germany might have been able to revalue without the severe political embarrassment which the German Government fear. I hope that I have made it clear that what I believe in is a fundamentally different strategy for the economy.
  It is based on the acceptance that international exchange rates are not holy, sacred, something which we should stick to for all time. I do not wish to amend this Bill. I have made it clear, on the Ways and Means Resolution, that it is wrong-headed through and through. It will do more harm than good. Britain is extremely vulnerable in world trade and we live by trade. Yet we have surrounded ourselves over the years with gross protective tariffs and that is why we are uncompetitive today, that is why imports are selling so well here, because for years British industry has been feather-bedded. We need the icy winds of competition and we have kept them out for far too long. We cannot live by keeping them out. We have to buy and sell in the world market in order to live. I am in favour of import-saving, but it cannot be done by legislation of this kind. It can only be done by making our products more competitive in world markets and in our own home market. No Bill was ever passed that has enabled us to create wealth.
  Government intervention in the economy, and this again will probably separate me from the Conservative and Labour parties, should be confined to creating conditions in which private enterprise can do the job. I believe that private enterprise can only work in conditions of competition. Unfortunately, the free enterprise system does tend towards monopoly and the elimination of competition. That is no reason for scrapping it. It is a reason for ensuring that the Government role is to continually

  819
  increase competition, to continually ensure that the monopolistically inclined elements of the free enterprise system are kept swimming outwards rather than inwards.
  The Government must continually work against the monopolising elements, against monopolies, against mergers, restrictive practices, and above all, the most restrictive practice of all, against tariffs. This is a tragic and mistaken Bill. It will add to the gathering pace of world protection. We have nothing to gain from it and everything to lose.
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. Alex Eadie: The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) is under an illusion when he imagines that there is a difference between his party and the Official Opposition. If he had only looked at the Front Bench opposite he would have noticed that when he talked about the pool of unemployment hon. Members sitting on the Front Bench opposite nodded their heads heartily in approval. Equally, when he mentioned the icy winds of competition there were hearty nods of approval. He must not deceive himself that he is independent on this policy. I will read his speech with a good deal of interest, and there will be people in Scotland who will read it with a good deal of interest. It will not spell very much good for the Liberal Party in Scotland.
  During the debate we have heard about the credibility of the Government. Surely we are entitled also to talk about the credibility of the Opposition in economic policies. During the last two or three weeks, when the country has been involved in argument and discussion about economic policies, one of the important factors has been the credibility of the Opposition. It has succeeded in managing to unite this side of the House. We have had speeches from the Opposition about the regional policy, about housing policy, and about the agricultural policy, which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition raised in the debate on economic affairs. That brought forth one of the most devastating editorials ever written about a Leader of the Opposition.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite should be very worried indeed. Last night I had a
  820
  meeting with a lifelong Conservative. He told me that he could not see his way to vote for the Conservative again because of their irresponsible attitude during the economic crisis. It is not very nice to find that the Official Opposition seem to be more concerned about what the Germans think than what the country or the British Government think. This will not do them any good. They may think that they will get some political capital out of it, but people are concerned that certain members of the Opposition are most anxious about what the Germans think than what they think.
  Comment has been made about our troops in Germany. Both sides of the House had better face up to this issue. Many people in this country are asking why we should subsidise troops in Germany and why we should have an Army of the Rhine. Some people may say that it is necessary that we should have troops in Germany in the interests of defence, but we should be very foolish if we were to ignore the fact that people in this country are questioning this expenditure.
  Some hon. Members talked about vested interests. Some were involved in the export business and others were economists. I am not an economist. My reason for intervening in this debate is, to some extent, to obtain clarification from the Government for the people of Scotland. I am concerned about the development areas and about Scotland. I want to know what effect these measures will have on them. There is already evidence in Scotland that unemployment is starting to recede. We hear hon. Members opposite talking about regional policies. It is ironic historically that it was about the time when we had another crisis of the Deutschmark that they introduced deflationary policies. They can be proud of what they did: at one time, we had 136,000 unemployed in Scotland as a consequence of their policies.
  Unemployment in Scotland is now decreasing fairly substantially. Industry is beginning to go with a real swing. We are beginning to get the advantages of electronic and engineering industries. We have a rather Gilbertian situation in Scotland: we are advertising for miners. My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) said that this debate was very wide. I do not want to start shovelling coal in this debate, but the

  821
  reason why I say that advertising for coal miners is Gilbertian is that it will be a very expensive policy in the long run largely because of the Government's fuel and power policy. We shall have to try to buy miners into the industry towards the end of 1969 or the beginning of 1970.
  We have heard many contradictory statements about what the Bill means and its effects on business and the economy. There have been many contradictory statements in the Press about the effects of the surcharge. The Financial Times of 26th November tried objectively to give a survey of what it thought the impact of the surcharge would be. It dealt with the car, engineering and paper industries, textiles and chemicals. Its objective analysis in relation to the engineering industry was that the Bill could have some effect, it would not be helpful and it was concerned about it. It adopted the same sort of line on the engineering industry. The textile industry may be in a different situation. I refer to what the Financial Times said about the textile industry because of the pessimistic attitude adopted by one of my hon. Friends:
  "'We look like being net gainers overall', was the fairly chirpy comment of one major textile group spokesman yesterday—and he could well have been speaking for the manufacturing side of the industry as a whole."
  I have a vested interest in this matter because I have some textile interests in my constituency. Some people in my constituency are dependent on the textile industry outwith it for their livelihood. What comments has my hon. Friend to make about this? Does he feel that the surcharge will have any impact on the textile industry?
  The survey in the Financial Times dealt also with the paper industry. Its comments were interesting. It said:
  "The British paper makers have been campaigning for some time for firm measures to discourage steadily climbing imports. Their spokesmen are thus expressing considerable satisfaction at the Government's import deposit move, claiming that it will give many of the manufacturers a welcome opportunity to use up surplus capacity".
  I have a vested interest here. Indeed, Scotland has a vested interest. We have extensive paper making interests in Scotland. I am a little concerned because there was substantial contraction in the paper industry in my constituency.
  I know that the people engaged in textiles, carpet making and paper making
  822
  will be very concerned and anxious about my hon. Friend's reply tonight. It is vital that he should comment on these matters. The Financial Times went on to say about the paper industry:
  "The Chancellor's deposit move, however, could mean a price advantage of around 30s. a ton to the British manufacturer—about £75 a ton being the estimated average price paid for imported paper. 'Broadly speaking', the B.P.B.M.A. said yesterday, 'you could say this is very pleasing'".
  I hope that my hon. Friend will answer some of these questions. I finish as I started. My vested interest is not that I am engaged in importing or that I am an economist, but my concern about the employment prospects of my constituents and the prospects of the Scottish economy.
  7.49 p.m.
  Mr. Joseph Hiley: It rarely happens that an hon. Member is able to bring before the House a complaint from a constituent firm before the Second Reading of a Bill. I shall not take up time discussing the relative theories of the economic proposals of one party or another or the distinctive policies between them. In my view, we have had too much of that and that is probably why we are in the mess we are in today. I am one who is used to trying to get on with the job.
  I wish to put to the Minister a case which occurred only today. On Tuesday or early yesterday morning a boat arrived at Felixstowe with a cargo of goods for a firm in my constituency. The Customs man at the port demanded £750 to comply with the Bill when it is passed. I appreciate that in measures of this kind a line has to be drawn somewhere, but I suggest to the Minister that it is grossly unfair and unreasonable that any firm, never mind a small one, should be faced with an imposition of that kind when it has not had any opportunity either to provide the money, to make arrangements for its provision, or to divert the goods which it has ordered.
  Instances of the case in question will probably have been multiplied in many ports today and yesterday. Clearly, the importation of the goods in this and in similar cases has not been done by firms in an attempt to evade the impact of the Bill. Therefore, the Minister should try to find a means by which firms which have genuinely ordered the goods and

  823
  which have taken only a short time to arrive should be given an opportunity to find the money for them.
  My constituent is particularly concerned as to the distinction between an import deposit and duty. I have not attempted to advise him on his, but I understand that the Customs officer is quoting what is contained in Clause 1(8), which refers to the 1952 Act and which clearly relates to import duty. Is the import duty the same as an import deposit?
  Whatever the answer, suppose that the Customs officer insists upon payment of the money and suppose that this House, in its wisdom, decides to reject the Bill. What would be the position of my constituent's £750 if the Customs succeed in getting the money out of him?
  Mr. Harold Lever: He will get his money back right away. If the House defeats the Bill, there will be no authority for retaining the deposit. I would like to point out also that as a result of the joint counsels on both sides of the House in the interval between the Ways and Means Resolution and the passing of all stages of the Bill, provided that the importer puts up a satisfactory deposit—not cash—he will get his goods released.
  Mr. Hiley: I thank the Minister for that assurance. Nevertheless, it involves a lot of work by a lot of people.
  That brings me to my final point, of which the Minister and the Government should take note. Everything which they do is involving a lot of people in a lot of unnecessary work, and nobody is any better off in the end. That is one of the principal reasons why we are in our present difficulty.
  7.54 p.m.
  Mr. A. H. Macdonald: It is rather gratifying to hear the remarks to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley), because they illustrate a practical instance of what is likely to happen if the Bill becomes law. I only wish that the hon. Member might have told the House exactly how his constituent firm raised the money. I assume that it managed to do so. It would have been interesting and useful to have first-hand information on the steps that were taken.
  Mr. Hiley: My constituent has not yet paid the money. I think that he has sufficient confidence in my ability to persuade the Minister of the injustice of the whole thing and that a message will be able to go out from the House tonight that a few more days will be allowed to enable people to make proper arrangements.
  Mr. Macdonald: I am obliged to the hon. Member. I take it that the answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will satisfy him.
  Having listened to the debate on the Bill, it has appeared to me that its importance has somehow become less and less following many of the speeches which have been made. I listened with great interest to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary in opening the debate, when he explained, so it seemed to me, that the effect of the Bill was likely to be moderate. I was glad to hear him say that, because in thinking about the matter before I heard my hon. Friend's remarks I had been a wee bit apprehensive. I felt that the Bill would be worse if it had great effects than if it had small effects. I am rather glad to think that its effects will be quite small.
  My hon. Friend suggested that the effect of the Bill might be a marginal reduction in imports or that a certain mopping up of liquidity was more likely. I wonder whether that mopping up of liquidity is likely to take place. I wonder whether it is possible that we may see, in effect, what I might call the creation of new liquidity, which will then be mopped up, rather than the mopping up of existing liquidity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) suggested that the effect of the Bill would probably be deflationary. With respect to his skill and knowledge on this subject, I should have thought that there was a danger that it might have an inflationary effect. Is it possible that as are sult of the Bill we may see the creation of additional credit? One way of finding the funds required, in addition to the methods mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton, is simply not to pay one's creditors and to allow them to wait a little longer. There is, naturally, a certain limit to that process, but I wonder whether I am wrong in suggesting that a study

  825
  of balance sheets nowadays indicates that there has been an increase in the volume of creditors and, naturally, in the volume of debtors rather greater than might have been expected from an examination of any increase in turnover. There is, therefore, a danger that we may see the creation of credit so that it may be mopped up by the measures advanced by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary.
  Even if that be only partly true, it still remains the case, as many hon. Members have said, that there are many ways in which funds can be found. It is possible, therefore, that among the small marginal effects of the Bill will be additional competition for these funds and therefore, possibly, a small increase in interest rates. I doubt whether it would be great. I think, therefore, that the effects of the Bill are likely to be quite small and marginal. I hope that I am right in that view, because it is my opinion that if the effects of the Bill were substantial, they would in large measure be deleterious.
  I have already referred to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton—and how right he was in suggesting that if this Measure has any significance, it is purely temporary and is a temporary measure of protection. Indeed, one might say that it is a temporary case of devaluation. When the time comes, as I trust it will, when we lift off the effects of this Measure, I cannot see but that we shall simply be back to ignore one, although, possibly, slightly worse off in meeting international competition than we were at the start.
  I accept the need for the measures under the regulator, but I have always looked with some distress and I have always argued against proposals to impose any kind of import control or import restraint. I have regarded those measures simply as dodging the issue, and I am glad to think that the effects of this measure are likely to be small, although I fear that, even though they are small, we are by this Bill setting a precedent for other possible methods of import control which might be substantially effective and, therefore, would be very deleterious.
  I listened with some astonishment—and I shall mention him although he is not here—to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael
  826
  Foot) when he said, as I understood him, that he is really a believer in free trade but that the measures which this country adopts to restrict imports in some way or another do not count, and that other nations can be expected to accept them without any difficulty. I wonder what kind of fantasy world my hon. Friend is living in when he says that our trade competitors will graciously let us do exactly as we like and not indulge in unreasonable retaliatory measures against us. With all respect to my hon. Friend's eloquence, to which I listened with great fascination, I cannot believe that his was a true description of the real world in which we find ourselves.
  My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, opening the debate, set out—and I agree with him—the fact that there are three ways of expanding our resources: by private expenditure, public expenditure, and investment. As I say, I accept this classification, and when he said he supported public expenditure and welcomed it I was most happy to agree with him. I also agree with him when he referred to investment—the seed corn, as he described it. These things being so, it seems to me to follow necessarily that there must be some moderate restraint on private expenditure. It is unrealistic, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) suggested, to pretend otherwise.
  I do not feel it is realistic to canvass the proposal that we should "flog off" our overseas assets if we think of the danger of selling our capital to maintain our current standard of living; we should find ourselves simply in the position that selling our overseas assets to pay our existing debts would be doing nothing to modify the policy which has led us to incur those debts. I therefore do not see merit in the proposal canvassed by some of my hon. Friends that we should adopt that kind of policy.
  The issue is put before us by the Amendment advanced by the Opposition. If there is to be some measure of restraint somewhere in our economy, then surely the choice, to put it crudely, is whether we are in favour of education, or whether we are in favour of beer. It was a most remarkable thing to hear the Leader of the Opposition uttering instant comments following the Chancellor's statement the

  827
  other day and suggesting, once again, that this was clobbering the consumer, and that we should yet again cut back on our public expenditure. I am glad to think that we are expending considerable sums on education and hospitals, and I trust that on this side of the House we shall never apologise for this. Therefore, we really should not shrink from saying that in the interests of maintaining that level of public expenditure, there must be a very modest degree of restraint in private consumption.
  There are possibly some cases where we might see a little reduction in public expenditure. I have some sympathy with those who think our defence expenditure might very well be reduced, particularly on things like Polaris, but I do not want to press the point particularly, because I feel that many people who canvass this are really dodging the issue. We must face the allocation of our resources according to the total available, and it will no longer do to pretend that we can, in some way, by going on having public expenditure and more and more private consumption, by adopting one device and another, put off the evil day.
  For these reasons I shall most certainly be voting in favour of the regulator Order and I suppose that I shall find myself voting for the Bill, although, for the reasons I have outlined, I think that its effects are likely to be marginal, and that we have to some extent been wasting our time, arguing at this length of time about it.
  8.5 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Blaker: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald) has made a characteristically thoughtful speech. I believed, until towards the end, that I would be able to congratulate him with some warmth, but then, in effect, he repeated the line taken by everyone on his side of the House except one Member, that they do not see any connection between the level of public expenditure and the necessity which the Government find to introduce the Bill.
  This was supported by the Financial Secretary, in his opening speech, when he said he did not see the connection. I thought at the time——
  Mr. Harold Lever: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I really am obliged to interrupt anybody who asserts that I so said, to remind him that I said nothing of the kind. I said, if it helps the hon. Member, that the level of public expenditure in the months ahead is now established and fixed and, therefore, has no relevance to the question of dealing with imports in the next few months.
  Mr. Blaker: I am very relieved to hear the statement of the Financial Secretary that he did not say what I believed he had said. Of course, I accept his correction, and I shall read with interest what HANSARD reports him as saying.
  The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), in his brilliant but blinkered fashion, demonstrated that he did not really know what the Bill is about. Clearly, he identified the scheme in the Bill with the Italian import credit restriction scheme, and when that was pointed out to him he replied, in effect, "Do not confuse me with facts".
  The hon. Member went on to charge that we on this side of the House were taking an unpatriotic line by supporting other countries against the Government. I should like to take up this point. The line which we on this side of the House lake is that we believe there is some merit from both the moral and the practical points of view in keeping agreements which we have signed with other countries. Moral and practical, I said; because if we get a reputation for breaking our agreements that will rebound on us in a practical way.
  The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale went on to take a line which, if it were taken by an American Congressman, he would denounce as great Power chauvinism. He said, in effect, that we do not need to worry whether our actions are in breach of E.F.T.A. or not because we are a big buyer and everybody will go on having an interest in our business.
  I am sorry to say—I hope that I am giving a fair rendering of what, in this case, the Financial Secretary said—that I thought that the hon. Gentleman displayed a similar, though less serious, attitude in this respect when he said, "Why are the Opposition taking up this question about the legality of our action? Why do not we just leave it

  829
  till the E.F.T.A. meeting and let us sort it out there?". I think that the thought at the back of his head was that we are big boys in E.F.T.A. ——
  Mr. Harold Lever: Absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Blaker: This may have been an unworthy thought, but it seemed to me to be the only reason why the Financial Secretary should suggest that we could leave that question till the E.F.T.A. meeting. It is the duty of this——
  Mr. Lever: The hon. Member must not impute to me attitudes of which I have given not the slightest evidence. The reason that I suggested this matter should be left for E.F.T.A. Ministers was, that they, unlike most hon. Members of the House, are deeply immersed in the details of the question whether or not this scheme is within the E.F.T.A. agreement. They are the authorities on the subject, not hon. Members.
  Mr. Blaker: I will come to the E.F.T.A. Convention in a moment. I hope that the Government, if they believe that this is consistent with the E.F.T.A. Convention, will tell us why; they have so far notably failed to do so.
  We have the advantage that the Mini-stet of State, who is to reply, is a distinguished lawyer. I hope that he will tell the House not simply that the advice which the Government have is that their action is consistent with the E.F.T.A. Convention, but why, and will spell out the chapter and verse, so that the House can understand. I believe, and I am sure that my hon. Friends agree, that it is the duty of the Opposition to examine whether or not the Government's action is legal. This is one of our primary duties, and it is not good enough for the Financial Secretary, whatever he may be recorded as saying in tomorrow's HANSARD, to give the impression that it is not the business of the House to examine this matter, but that it is the responsibility of the E.F.T.A. Council alone.
  The Chief Secretary has said:
  "We have taken the best advice available to us, and, on the basis of that advice, our view is that, since there is no specific prohibition in the Convention, we were entitled to take this action and that no question of illegality arises."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1968; Vol. 774, c. 153.]
  830
  I would like the Minister of State to say when this advice was taken. In the economic debate on Monday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the impression to the House that he did not know what the answer was, and when the Financial Secretary was asked about it, he replied, in effect, that this arrangement is only temporary. That led me again to suspect either that he did not know the answer, or that he would rather not discuss it.
  The Chief Secretary, in the passage I have just quoted, went on to say that he assumed that the view he had just expressed, that is to say, that there was no question of illegality, was the view of both right hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House when they put forward the scheme, as he described it, earlier. As I have pointed out, this is not the scheme which my right hon. Friends had proposed. The Italian scheme to which they referred in their earlier remarks this year and last year is a different matter altogether. It involves, as I understand it, simply the accelerated payment of the purchase price of goods. The Government's scheme involves something totally different. It involves the payment of different money, a charge of 50 per cent., and this is relevant to whether the arrangement is consistent with the E.F.T.A. Convention.
  Article 3, paragraph 1, of the E.F.T.A. Convention states:
  "Member States shall reduce and ultimately eliminate … customs duties and any other charges with equivalent effect."
  Article 6, paragraph 1, states:
  "Member States shall not … apply directly or indirectly to imported goods any fiscal charges in excess of those applied directly or indirectly to like domestic goods, nor otherwise apply such charges so as to afford effective protection to like domestic goods,"
  I would like to know in what way the Government take the view that the import deposit proposed in the Bill is outside those Articles.
  Mr. Donald Chapman: The answer is fairly easy. The articles deal with measures intended to protect particular goods, but this is a broad matter which is covered by what the Chancellor told the House; that the E.F.T.A. Ministers recognised that some action by Britain was needed, and this

  831
  across-the-board action for a temporary period was the best action that Britain could take. The hon. Gentleman is dealing with individual measures of protection.
  Mr. Blaker: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am dealing with the question of the legality of the Bill, and on this I would like to have an answer from the Government. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think that he has answered my point.
  The communiqué of the E.F.T.A. Ministers said nothing about being satisfied. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will read the communiqué; it did not suggest even that the members of the E.F.T.A. Council thanked the British spokesman for his statement. I see nothing to show that the E.F.T.A. Council so far has accepted that this action is legal.
  The Bill describes the impost as a duty of Customs. The Financial Secretary on 26th November described the impost as a Customs charge. The Government cannot have it both ways. If it is a duty of Customs or a Customs charge it is squarely within the prohibition of the E.F.T.A. Convention. I hope that the Minister of State will explain exactly the Government's reasons for claiming that this is exempt.
  On the evidence before me I believe that this is not only a breach of E.F.T.A., but also a bad proposal on its merits. It puts in an impossible position an importer who has already ordered goods for which an irrevocable letter of credit has been issued. I hope that the Government will exempt altogether from the effect of the Bill importers in that situation. Such exemption would be justice and it would not encourage any further imports than those which are already on their way.
  The Bill fails to allow the exemption of goods which are essential. I have here a telegram from the Timber Trade Federation which gives an example. The telegram points out that the price of new houses, schools, factories and other buildings and of many exports will rise, and that the United Kingdom plywood manufacturing industry is capable of supplying only 4 per cent. of the country's requirements. I hope that the Government when the time comes will be willing to extend
  832
  the list of exemptions. Those are some of the immediate practical difficulties, but the longer-term effects of the Bill will be bad.
  The hon. Member for Chislehurst and the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) have made some good points, particularly about the bunching effect when this arrangement ends. There are other and even bigger disadvantages. First, I think this is simply a crutch which will delay this country's convalescence. But the biggest practical disadvantage is that the Bill will encourage retaliation. We have discussed whether it will be permanent or temporary. I think that it is likely to encourage retaliation even if it is temporary, and, if so, it has also the bad effects which hon. Gentlemen have described. It is permanent. or semi-permanent, it is certain that it will encourage retaliation.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House have described the restrictionist, protectionist tendencies which are already developing in the world. The Government, in spite of protestations that they are in favour of freer trade, in spite of repeatedly pointing out that Britain is more dependent on international trade than any other country, when they are faced with an emergency, as they so often are, show that their reflex action, as opposed to their mature action, is protectionist. We have the 15 per cent. surcharge, the £50 travel limit, and other examples.
  These examples have been followed. We now have travel restrictions imposed by the United States Government, and at one time they suggested more severe restrictions than those eventually adopted by Congress. We have travel and currency limits imposed by the French. In another direction, we have the French altering the incidence of their value-added tax to give a significant advantage to their exporters and a corresponding disadvantage to importers. When such cases occur in the future, Her Majesty's Government will be disqualified from protesting. If the French find it necessary to devalue, which one hopes that they will not, and continue the emergency measures which they have adopted recently, we shall not be able to complain.
  In the United States, we see a potentially dangerous development of protectionist feeling. What is to happen when

  833
  this matter comes up in the United States Congress and it has to decide whether or not to proceed with further cuts under the Kennedy Round? There will be a lot of ammunition for those protectionist Congressmen who want the Kennedy Round to be stopped in its tracks, let alone these who want to stop the abolition of the American selling price for chemicals.
  World trade this year has gone up by 10 per cent., which has helped the Government immensely. We should have done better with exports than we have. By how much will it go up next year? How much will it go up in the future if we develop a general protectionist atmosphere? If it develops, we shall lose more than we can hope to gain with this ill-considered Bill.
  The Chancellor gave the impression that there was no better alternative. There is, and an obvious one would be for the Government to resign. That would remove at once the biggest obstacle to the recovery of confidence in Britain at home and abroad. It would also help our reserves. If, surprisingly, they are not prepared to resign, they could at least show that they are prepared to tackle the root causes of the surplus of exports. They could start by learning about the connection between excessive public expenditure and the Bill. They could show that they mean to encourage saving. They could show that they are learning how to manage the money supply. They could make a start by reforming industrial relations and our tax laws.
  I understand that their proposed scheme resembles those which enjoy popularity in certain Latin-American countries. That shows the economic league in which we are currently performing. The Prime Minister used to be very fond of league tables. He is less fond of them now. However, there are two leagues in which his Administration bid fair to be near the top. The first is that of breaking faith with other countries. The second is that of countries which may endanger the future growth of world trade.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. R. B. Cant: When I came into the Chamber, I had no intention of speaking in the de
  834
  bate. I have spoken already this week on the subject, and only my great interest in the topic has made me sit here all these hours, if one discounts the wit of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, to whom I always enjoy listening.
  I intervene because I have become increasingly worried by the fact that, in respect of import deposits, the Bill is becoming more and more a mouse which everyone applauds because it will not create any special offence and will pass through in the night unnoticed by anyone.
  I want to go to the other extreme and put in a plea for it as a meaningful piece of legislation. I do not want to give offence to my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald), who is an ideological colleague and—[An HON. MEMBER: "A bank manager."] He is not my bank manager. If we are not careful, we in this country risk our reputation in the sense that we are such British gentlemen, good fellows and decent chaps that we would not like to do anything to offend anyone at all. The main gravamen of my contribution follows my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), who said that we face a serious situation which cannot be resolved by trying to be decent to everyone and not taking matters too seriously.
  In all this talk about demand management, whether we are discussing taxes, or the matter which bemuses right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, the money supply, or prior deposits, the topic is being exalted far to much in our vocabularies. For some reason, the financial management of the economy is something which is very respectable and to which the best brains in the country are devoting their attention. So important is it that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues have an importance which, for example, a Minister of Technology has not. Yet, in the last resort, we shall succeed or fail in the degree to which we advance our technology, our efficiency and our competitiveness vis-a-vis the other nations of the world. Compound interest is terrifying when it is applied to the technological gap occurring between this country and many others in the world, because it decides in the last resort whether the nation can be viable economically.

  835
  However efficient we are, we still have to manage the economy, and there is no denying that we have an import problem. It is no good any hon. Member suggesting that the problem of imports is not one of growing seriousness for the country. We resort to the Brookings Institute, which tells us in comforting language that we are no worse off than anyone else and indicates that Britain's import performance in the 'sixties was in no sense unusual. A much more critical analysis in the current issue of Business Ratios, by a member of the National Economic Development Office, who says that he is not speaking officially, puts it very clearly. He says that our situation is declining, particularly in the sphere of sophisticated manufactured goods.
  My opinion, like that of some of my colleagues and the Financial Secretary, is that if we could manage without controls, so much the better. Without doubt our balance of payments deficit is becoming more aggravated as time goes on. If this is happening, and for this year the National Institute attributes nearly all the deterioration in our situation to imports, with very little given to bad economic management, price levels and so on, we simply cannot introduce a Bill about which we argue, "It will not work, so do not take much notice of it." My plea is that the Treasury should add this, even on a relatively permanent basis, to its weapons of economic management. Why not?
  Mr. Blaker: Retaliation.
  Mr. Cant: Retaliation. Other countries please themselves. They impose devaluation, direct or indirect, and they adjust their border taxes whether we want them to or not.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) was right in saying that we are the largest importers per head of population in the world. This should endow us with a certain amount of monopoly power. We ought not to be disregarded by people who want to sell to us.
  Mr. Blaker: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that we should behave like this regardless of our international obligations?
  Mr. Cant: I regard this as undue sensitiveness. If we want to get ourselves
  836
  into these situations it may make life a little more difficult. But we must, as a nation, economically survive. My point is that the Treasury, looking at our import situation, had two alternatives: import quotas or this very modified, ever-diminishing, prior deposit scheme. Other countries operate such schemes. The Japanese operate one. The Italians have operated one. Ironically, although theirs is internally slightly different, it is also externally slightly different, because one important aspect of operation Carli was to forbid Italian importers from borrowing abroad to provide themselves with finance for this purpose.
  There are undoubted weaknesses in the scheme. When I spoke before I suggested that we did not know what the Government would do about the deflationary impact of this Measure. Nothing is clear about that. Will they offset this deflationary impact with the injection of some increase in liquidity if the banks adopt a particular attitude in selling their gilt-edged securities? Will they allow our importers so to rely on external finance that we shall have a position where our reserves are increasing in a fascinating manner but our imports are increasing at the same time? We do not know. This is yet another example of a piece of legislation which was thought up in a hurry and has been presented in a somewhat—I always like to be charitable—ill-digested form to the House of Commons. This is a great pity, because for many years we shall be in a situation where our imports are rising more rapidly than exports—certainly until the efficiency of British industry is greater than it is.
  I should like to think that, in presenting this Measure to us, the arguments had been weighed much more carefully and the administrative arrangements evolved in a more satisfactory manner.
  My main point is simply that we should not apologise too much for this Measure. We should not lay it on the table as though we, as a Government and nation, had committed some sort of heinous sin of which we were terribly ashamed, and that if we could push it under the table we would do so as quickly as possible. This is a quite reasonable and legitimate Measure, by which a Government and country with a massive import bill, with all sorts of complications attached, are seeking to remedy their position.

  837
  We have evolved all sorts of techniques of economic management, and have tried to make them very sophisticated. We have probably fallen for what the Americans call the doctrine of the fine tuning of the economy. But in most advanced industrial economies fine tuning rarely works. If we had an undeveloped economy, in which the financial institutions were not very elaborate, these controls might be fairly effective, but in our sort of economy—when we are a financial centre for the world, which means that there are some extremely complex ramifications—we may have to follow the Japanese overall approach to the problem of economic management.
  It might not be any more possible for this country than for America, France or Germany to change the direction of the economy by what the Americans call "a slap on the wrist." We may from time to time have to slam on the brakes, rather than doing a little here, a little there, a little now and a little later. if some component in the economy is running ahead too quickly, or imports are rising too rapidly, we may have to accept a policy of action which is decisive, ubrupt and quantitatively significant.
  Do not let us apologise for this Measure; it is a respectable weapon of economic management. Do not let us permit so many exceptions to the general rules that the Measure becomes completely ineffective in practice, maximising people's irritation and producing no results.
  8.39 p.m.
  Sir Cyril Osborne: It is lucky for the reputation of Parliament that this is not being televised tonight. A few moments ago there were 15 hon. Members in the Chamber. We are supposed to be discussing emergency measures to deal with an economic crisis that brought home the Chancellor from Bonn only last Friday flying the S.O.S. flag. It is incredible that the benches on both sides of the House should be nearly empty—there are more Members on the benches opposite than on this side of the House—when we are discussing a matter that affects us all.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) said that the Financial Secretary had argued that there was no alternative to these proposals.
  838
  He suggested rather abruptly that there was one, that the Government could resign, to which the Financial Secretary said that that would not produce imports in the next six months. I asked the Financial Secretary by how much this miserable, friendless little Bill would reduce imports and he said that he did not know. And this is a Government of planners—[AN HON. MEMBER: "But it is a free country."—but we are planning to reduce imports. That is what we are discussing. Yet the Financial Secretary with all his charm and honesty, which we all admire, could not answer the question which really matters—how far will the Bill bite, by how much will it reduce imports? He had not the vaguest idea and had the honesty to say so.
  The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), in his impassioned speech, made one point with which I completely agree. He said that some import control was inevitable and that this country had a perfect right, as a sovereign Power, to control its imports. I agree, but if that is carried to its logical conclusion it means that we have to control consumer expenditure. We cannot have a policy of real, savage and serious import controls without facing the ultimate of consumer control, the ration book—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"—this is the logical outcome.
  The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) followed the Financial Secretary by saying that this miserable little Bill will have very little influence on imports. If so, why go on with it? [Interruption.] Because we would like to destroy it. If this pettifogging, miserable little Bill will do so little to help exports—the Financial Secretary said that it was only temporary and would have only a marginal effect—then what is all the fuss about? Why did the Chancellor come home in such a bother and so worried? Is not this a miserable effort to get us out of our troubles?
  Let me remind the Financial Secretary of what the Chancellor said on Friday. He said that the aim was to bring the balance of payments deficit to an end. It is a fraud to pretend that this miserable little Bill——
  Mr. Harold Lever: The hon. Member should not beat himself into frenzy of passion on the wrong grounds. What

  839
  the Chancellor said was that the effect of the totality of his current and past measures would bring the balance of payments into surplus. This is only one of a great number of measures, including the regulator, the credit squeeze and the others which have been taken.
  Sir C. Osborne: I will give the hon. Gentleman the reference in a moment from HANSARD. At best, this is only a short-term stop-gap, and in the long run I believe that it could make our position much worse. The real problem is not the excess of imports. The real problem and the root of our economic evil is that we as a nation, privately and publicly, are spending roughly 6d. in the £ more than we are earning. if we could bridge that gap, if we could earn 6d. more or spend 6d. less in the £, the problem would disappear.
  But the Bill and the other measures which the Government are putting before us will not cause anybody to earn a farthing more or spend a farthing less. They will not touch the problem. This all represents a miserable make-believe. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said last Friday:
  "… we have found it essential to take this temporary Measure in order to protect our vital interests…."
  He went on:
  "The Bill will continue in force for a year, but with provision for this period to be reduced, but not increased, by Statutory Instrument."
  It could, therefore, be smaller and smaller.
  The right hon. Gentleman then said:
  "The Bill will also provide for the rate of deposit to be reduced, but not increased, by Order."
  This is whittling it down until there is a shadow of nothing behind it. Finally on this point, he said:
  "The scheme is not one which can or should be kept in being for more than a limited period."
  As we have high regard for the honesty of the Financial Secretary, I ask him if he thinks that 12 months will be enough to do what the Government believe is required to reduce our imports. I doubt it. When the Chancellor said that our vital interests must be protected, can they be protected in such a short time?
  840
  This is supposed to be a temporary Measure. I remember buildings being erected during the 1914–18 war that were said to be temporary. They are being used today. I am afraid that this temporary Measure will continue in the same way. Would the Chancellor give a promise that, whatever happens in the next 12 months, at the end of that time he would rather resign than continue the Bill?
  Will not these restrictions create more resentment or reprisals abroad? By how much—I have asked this question before—will these cuts reduce imports into Britain? How soon do the Government expect them to be effective, for how long and from which countries will imports in the main be coming here that he is proposing to cut? The Chancellor said in his statement:
  "Imports will be reduced directly because of the difficulty and cost of obtaining credit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, November. 1968; Vol. 773, c. 1795.]
  I do not believe that. If businessmen want their imports they will find means of financing them. They always have done and always will do.
  It should be remembered that the imports we receive are other countries' exports. We are lauding our manufacturers for increasing our exports. Why should it be wicked for other people to want to export their goods to us when we want to export more to them?
  Has the Chancellor consulted British trade commissioners abroad about the reprisals that are likely to result from these measures? If so, what advice did they give him? If the reprisals are going to be greater in their effect than the benefit that is likely to accrue from these restrictions, is this all worthwhile?
  Mr. William Baxter: Is the hon. Member diametrically opposed to any import control? As I understood the Leader of the Opposition, he was very much in favour of certain import controls.
  Sir C. Osborne: The hon. Member for West Sterlingshire (Mr. Baxter) should have been present when I started my speech.
  Mr. Baxter: I was here.
  Sir C. Osborne: Then the hon. Member could not have listened carefully, for

  841
  I told the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale that I entirely agreed with him that we are entitled to protect ourselves from unwanted imports. I said that quite clearly.
  These restrictions are to be for one year at the outside. If they were for less than a year, would this mean that the imports would be dammed up in countries which wanted to send them to us and therefore we should take away the restrictions? Shall we not have a bigger flood then, and will not the position be worse than it is today? Has this been considered? Are we to say at the end of 12 months that more restrictions are to he put on and that these are not temporary?
  Mr. Emery: Like the "temporary" surcharge.
  Sir C. Osborne: I hope the Financial Secretary will get someone to answer my following questions.
  Mr. Chapman: We shall be here all night.
  Sir C. Osborne: This is exempted business. Hon. Members are complaining, yet they are demanding more pay. Does not the Financial Secretary think that the Chancellor has painted too rosy a picture of our present position as a background to this Bill? I remind the House of what the Chancellor said last Friday:
  "… the events of the past week have demonstrated dramatically the urgency of our achieving and maintaining a surplus in the balance of payments of the United Kingdom."
  Then this important sentence:
  "We have made considerable progress."
  If in recent months we have made considerable progress and the position is infinitely better, the Chancellor must have inherited an awful mess from the present Home Secretary when he took over, a much worse mess than the country realises.
  It has been estimated by responsible people that the deficit this year will be £656 million. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Chancellor promised some months ago that during this year the economy would be just in balance and next year we should have a considerable surplus. [Interruption.] Oh, please, the
  842
  hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) does not know.
  Mr. Chapman: I do know.
  Sir C. Osborne: This is being confirmed by the Financial Secretary.
  Mr. Harold Lever: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I certainly cannot confirm the accuracy of the first part of what he said, although I accept the accuracy of the second part. That is to say, I do not at all agree with his comment about what the Chancellor is supposed to have said about 1968, but I do agree that by 1969 it is the Chancellor's prediction and mine that we shall be running in substantial surplus.
  Sir C. Osborne: I will look up the reference for the hon. Gentleman. He shall have it; then perhaps he will send me the appropriate note.
  Mr. Lever: I will indeed.
  Sir C. Osborne: The Chancellor went on to say, and this is where I accuse the Government of misleading their followers and the country:
  "On the basis of a three-monthly moving average, the trade figures, including those for October, have shown an improvement in every month since May."
  This is what I call the statistician's jargon to bemuse and confuse the people. He said:
  "The policies we have followed since devaluation are showing their results, especially in the excellent performance of our exports."
  If the position has improved and is improving to that extent, why are this Bill and these restrictions necessary? What is all the fuss about?
  I should like to give the House what I consider to be the real facts that support the statement of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Cant) that our position is much more serious than the country realises. Official figures for the difference between the recorded values of imports and exports for the current year show this. I agree that one item is f.o.b. and the other is c.i.f. The monthly deficits were as follows: January, £191 million; February, £110 million; March, £136 million; April, £137 million; May, £194 million; June, £60 million; July, £150 million; August, £143 million; September, £100 million; and October, £180 million. That means that the deficit is

  843
  running at nearly £1,700 million a year. These are official figures taken from Government papers. The Financial Secretary may consider that they are ridiculous figures, or that the argument based on them is ridiculous, but every argument which does not suit the Government Front Bench must be ridiculous to Ministers, because they cannot accept it. I understand that kind of party claptrap.
  Suppose we take the hon. Gentleman's special figures, seasonally adjusted, although I should like him to tell the House what is meant by "seasonally adjusted" and how he seasonally adjusts the figures. I have found no Minister who can tell me that. No one knows what "seasonally adjusted" means. I have asked three Ministers, and each said that he did not know and asked me to see an official.
  Mr. Chapman: Name them.
  Sir C. Osborne: It would not be fait to them, but I will tell the hon. Gentleman the names afterwards. On seasonally adjusted figures, the deficit for the first 10 months of this year has amounted to £645 million. That is at the rate of £774 million a year. [Interruption.] If hon. Members think that that is something to giggle about, I do not. We are in a far more serious position than the Chancellor has allowed the nation to believe, or the Bill suggests. The Bill is not nearly tough enough for the problem. It does not tackle it in the right way and it will not produce the results we require. [Interruption.] This is exempted business, so we can go through the night.
  The Chancellor said on Friday:
  "but the scheme",—
  which is what we are discussing now—
  "with all its possible imperfections, is preferable to any alternative way open to me of bringing the deficit in the balance of payments to an end without prejudice to the longer-term improvements which I believe are in train."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd November, 1968; Vol. 773. c. 1794–6.]
  I do not believe that, and I want to suggest three ways which would be better than the Government's present approach.
  First, in 1965 the Government allowed wages to increase by £1,300 million, although they knew that production had increased by only about £600 million.
  844
  That was the way to inflation. If the Government want to cure our economic problems, they should stop the folly of paying out a great deal more in wages, salaries, rents, dividends and other incomes than we are earning. That is one alternative that I offer to the Chancellor.
  I was asked whether I agreed with the restriction of imports. It should not be broad-based and applied to every country, but should apply to those that persistently sell us far more than they buy from us. Since the war, the United States has sold our country £3,929 million-worth of goods more than she has bought from us. We should say to the Americans, "If you do not buy our goods, we are sorry, we shall not be able to buy yours." Every year, except for one, the Americans have had a substantial balance in their favour.
  The situation is worse in our trade with Canada. Since the war the Canadians have sold to us £4,094 million worth of goods more than they have bought from us. This year so far our American dollar adverse balance is 130 million and with Canada 227 million. We are entitled to say to North America, "During not just one year but 25 years, you have persistently sold more to us than you have bought from us and you have even imposed tariffs against our goods of up to 40 per cent. If you do not play ball with us we shall put up big tariffs." That is an alternative way we should follow.
  If the Government were to take action in a big way against selected countries which are guilty in this respect year after year against us, I am certain that it would do a great deal more for us than this miserable little Bill which, until the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central spoke, did not have one friend in this House. Everyone had criticised it as a miserable little Bill, and I shall willingly vote against it.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Chapman: Having listened to the debate all day, I would comment that, although all of us are in danger of exaggerating in the House when seized of a particular aspect of a particular case, in its exaggerations the Opposition have excelled themselves today. But the exaggeration has been most extraordinary. There has been exaggeration of two entirely divided conceptions about the Bill.

  845
  On the one hand, the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Frederic Harris) and the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) labelled the Bill as a terrible economic disaster. I was weeping real tears about the hundreds of men being driven into Carey Street, about the vast disruption of our import trade and about the poor businessmen who are now faced with bankruptcy on a scale never dreamed of before. That was one case in a vast torrent of words from one half of the Opposition. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) and others, said, "No, that is not what the Bill will do. It will have no effect. There will be no bankruptcies. This poor little mouse of a Bill, without support, will have no effect."
  This fantastic division on the Opposition benches has been made the more derisory and ridiculous by the extreme exaggeration of two entirely opposite points of view, neither of which faces the facts. I will tell the House what I believe the Bill will do and why we should support it. What is it that we are trying to do? The Chancellor made the figures clear. We are gradually reducing the monthly deficit on the balance of payments. We have got it down to a figure, at the moment, of between £20 million and £30 million a month.
  Sir C. Osborne: Seasonally adjusted?
  Mr. Chapman: I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman in his arguments.
  By the time we take invisibles into account, we have the figure down to £20 million to £30 million a month. What we are trying to do is to make a quick action to get it turned round the corner as soon as possible into surplus, and for the very good reasons which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on Monday. He said:
  "I would not have used measures which I believed wrong in themselves, but I was prepared to take unpleasant measures which otherwise might not have been necessary and certainly not at this stage. We had to accelerate the move into surplus and show the world we were doing it."
  The effect of the crisis in Europe last week, which sent Finance Ministers scurrying to Bonn and back, was that Britain, like every other country, had to show extra willing at this stage to tell the world that, although we had been in deficit for some years, we now intended
  846
  to take action as quickly as possible, although the process has not been quite fast enough, once-and-for-all action for 12 months, to prevent another run on our currency, as there might have been in if more panic started in the world, even though some of it was not of our own making.
  The Chancellor repeated his statement, saying:
  "It needed no crisis to focus my mind on over-riding need to correct our balance of payments. But the crisis made it still more necessary to increase our insurance premium to get things right quickly, no matter how high the cost."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1968; Vol. 774, c. 50–51.]
  That is why the Bill has appeared. We want this spur at this stage after the panic in world markets and because of the way in which many countries are looked at askance if they persist a little too long with a balance of payments deficit.
  I believe that the Bill will work, and here I part company from the half of the Opposition who think that it is just a mouse, the half which was joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett). I believe that it will work because we are going for only a limited objective, which is to try to get a quick turn round of about a couple of hundred million pounds. That is the kind of thing at which the Bill is precisely aimed.
  I believe that the Bill will work better than the import surcharge did, because this is being backed by other measures to make it work. It is being backed by a little arm twisting at home. The use of the regulator to take £250 million from the national income of £30,000 million is not very much, but there are also the credit restrictions plus the orders to the hank, and the whole package will make the Bill work in a way in which the import surcharge could not work because it was not so vigorously backed by other measures. I believe that the Bill will save us £100 million, or £150 million, or £200 million, on our balance of payments quickly, producing results within the next six months or nine months.
  I do not believe that businessmen will go out of business, as the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West suggested. If a business cannot stand a year's reduction in its trade, it must be already in a "dicky" state. Businessmen will decide to lay off some importing until the year

  847
  is over, saying that if there is then a turn round in our balance of payments and things look better, these restrictions will be relaxed and they will be able to begin importing again with the old speed and vigour.
  When all the wild charges are being thrown around about the figures involved and the desperate mess we are in and the fantastic cuts—I am using words to repeat what has been said by hon. Members opposite—when all these exaggerations have been made, what are we discussing? We are talking about trying to get a change at the margin. In £6,000 million we want to cut out or delay £200 million.
  Sir C. Osborne: Where do those figures come from?
  Mr. Chapman: We are trying to get a 3 per cent. adjustment at the margin of our imports. This is no fantastic cut in importing. This is no great disruption of trade. The E.F.T.A. countries will not go sky high and start screaming at us. When their interest in British trade is going up steadily year by year, they will take the rough with the smooth. They will accept that for one year Britain has to draw in her belt a bit before the whole process can continue to go steadily up and up.
  Those of us who meet E.F.T.A. Parliamentarians in other assemblies do not find them screaming at Britain. In circumstances like this they say, "So long as, over the years, our exports to Britain are going up, we are happy. We will take the rough with the smooth. You have to keep yourselves in balance, we know that". There will be no undue alarm and panic in the E.F.T.A. countries. We are trying to make this small adjustment at the margin. The same would apply if we look at the internal cuts used by the regulator. If we look at what has gone wrong and caused these extravagant, wild accusations from the other side, it is that we are 1 per cent. out in our estimate as to how national consumption would move this year.
  I reminded the hon. Member for Louth when, during this speech he said that we could not always tell what the result of our actions would be, in exact numbers of millions of pounds, that this
  848
  is a free country. We are free to import and to spend. All that a Government can do in a free country—and I am glad to have that freedom and to pay the price of it—is to exert pressures and sometimes to wait to see how they work, making the best judgment available.
  The only alternative is undemocratic totalitarian planning, which neither he nor I want. This was to be taken as part of the country's democratic life. If one is trying to be as accurate as 1 per cent., 2 per cent., 3 per cent. at the margin of either imports or national consumption, one will make mistakes and will have to use the regulator and to use little Bills like this. I congratulate the Government. This is a very sensible Bill. It is a very sensible package of measures which ought to have just the kind of effect that the Government want, to swing us into surplus a little more quickly so that there is no danger of any further attack on our currency.
  9.13 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Shaw: This debate has ranged widely, and nearly every point has been ventilated. I will try to condense what I have to say. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) made an interesting speech, because it was the first almost unqualified speech in support of Government policy. He claimed that there had been a wide spectrum of views from this side of the House. Had he listened closely to the expressions of view from his own side he would realise that they were much less varied than those from this side and were nearly all of a doubtful quality.
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Cant) seemed to come out firmly for the benefits of a "stop-go" policy. I would go some way with him, because I believe that one can be too clever when dealing with the economy and that too much tinkering can cause more harm than good. At the end of the day our attitude to this Bill and the regulator comes down to what is our confidence in the behaviour of the economy during the next 12 months.
  The Purchase Tax regulator is aimed at checking consumer spending. Such spending will only be checked if confidence in the future is restored. If it is not, and I do not believe that it has

  849
  been so restored, then people will continue to spend not only everything they earn but everything they have saved. The whole record of these last four years has been crisis coming after promises, coming after crisis. At every stage the man who has bought straight away instead of waiting has always found it best to do so.
  The crux of the matter is: is this the last crisis that we shall suffer under this Government? If the answer in the public mind is "Yes" and we are now on the right road, there is a good chance of these measures being effective. But I do not believe that the public is convinced of this in the slightest. When we had devaluation, there was a chance to draw a line and start again. But measures have dribbled out month after month in the last year, each time increasing prices arid making people say, "Why did I not buy that last week because now the price has increased". There is no incentive to save or to hold on to savings. There is only an incentive to spend in the conviction that prices will be higher later. The Government must set their own house in order and set a ceiling and put a brake on their own spending.
  Whatever the merits of the import deposits scheme in the Bill, it has been admitted by the Government that it is a temporary Measure—that is, a Measure which gives time for other things to work. The essence of the scheme is that it should be seen that when it ceases to work the economy will be in balance and beginning to move forward and once again we shall be able to pay our way in the world and to discharge some of our debts. But is this the position? Is there any hon. Member, apart from the hon. Member for Northfield, who believes that in 12 months we shall not still be here discussing another crisis?
  The Evening Standard has been much quoted. I want to follow the fashion. What was David Montague's view of the future when talking to Jonathan Aitken? He said:
  "The outlook for Britain remains very little changed as a result of the events of last week. We are likely to feel a backlash from the success achieved by de Gaulle and the refusal of the Germans to devalue. Sterling must continue weak as long as the credibility gap widens between what the Government says and does".
  850
  In saying that, he spoke for the vast majority of the people of this country.
  A time-bomb is built into this Measure. If, as I believe in many instances, the import deposit will be paid for either by cash from abroad or by the extension of credit by foreign importers to this country, when this Measure ceases to have effect in 1970 the payments will be made to those foreign importers. Therefore, just when we should be getting on our feet, a further drain on sterling is likely to take place. That is a curious timing for those interested in general elections.
  I do not believe that in general the big companies will have difficulty in getting the money to pay these deposits. On balance, prices will go up as a result of their having to find the money. The people about whom I am worried, as I have been so often in the last four years, are the close companies, the small family companies. Not only will they have difficulty in finding money for the deposits, but the whole aim of the Bill is to make credit tighter, and the people who are always most affected in times of tight credit are the small family companies, and particularly those in the middle of rapid expansion. These are the very people we need to encourage rather than hold back if we are to make a success of the future. But they do not have the resources or the avenues of the big companies for gaining cash and they cannot twist the arms of the banks in the way that the big companies can to force them to lend them the money. There is a real danger and a hardship for those companies. I would like to see an Amendment in due course whereby companies below a certain size can claim a rebate from the deposit if they show that they are of that size.
  If the Government could assure us that in the next 12 months we would have no further crises and that the Bill would give us the time that is necessary for an equilibrium in our balance of payments to be truly achieved, I would believe that there was ground for supporting it, but I and, I believe, most people do not have that confidence and believe that this latest crisis is one of a continuing series of crises that will continue until the Government go out of office.
  9.21 p.m.
  Mr. Ted Leadbitter: I propose to take no longer than seven or eight minutes to accommodate the House, in spite of the fact that I have been sitting here since about half-past two. I have done so because I am very much concerned at the implications of the kinds of measures that the Government have introduced during the past few days, in addition to other measures in a serious attempt to try to solve the country's problems. Basically, I am not satisfied that either the extent of this Measure, the nature of it or, indeed, the use of the regulator is necessarily the kind of formula which will deal with the basic malaise of the country.
  I noticed in the Financial Times this morning this comment when it referred to the review of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research:
  "There is no doubt the reason for the difference"—
  that is the difference in the estimates of the balance of payments—
  "lies in the behaviour of imports relative to the level of domestic demand. It is chiefly in respect of import forecasts—price and volume—that successive revisions have taken place. Thus the Institute's call for import controls earlier this year was amply justified."
  That is the basic problem which requires repetition and attack.
  Since 1960, the increase in exports has, unfortunately, not kept pace with the increase in imports. The Bill is geared to do two things: to mop up some consumer demand, on the one hand, and marginally to reduce imports, on the other. If the principle of controlling imports by this Measure is acceptable, why do we get fixed with the notion of physical quantitative controls?
  If the principle is right in this instance—and the Government have said that it is—why is the means of attacking through the principle of quantitative restrictions on imports which can be selective, which can be placed in the right directions and which can take the economy into consideration, not applied?
  The answer, apparently, is that our E.F.T.A. partners would be upset, that we would upset the principles and concepts of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, or that we would upset the
  852
  principles laid down in the conditions of the International Monetary Fund.
  I repeat that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) said, if we are consuming more than we are earning, if we are taking from the rest of the world more than we are paying for, if, over a number of years, we cannot export to a level to meet our import consumption, we must do something about the imports. There is no point in tinkering with the problem. There is no point in introducing in a Bill of this kind another danger, because it does not follow that the level of import reductions which the Bill may achieve will be of the kind which will be in the best interests of the country. We shall gain only marginally, and even the Financial Secretary would not say what that margin would be, in terms of import reduction. We cannot pinpoint the extent of the margin of reduction. We cannot even select more than the general areas of the reduction.
  Therefore, I place before the House my first objection to the nature of the Bill. It is marginal, it does not pinpoint the right type of import reduction, and it does not solve the basic problem of imports. Therefore, it encourages very little support.
  There is another side to the Bill, in so far as it affects the development areas. Although I said on Tuesday that one cannot, in a debate of this kind, ask for discriminatory concessions, nevertheless the consequences of this kind of Measure are felt, possibly, far more quickly in development areas than they are elsewhere. Many small companies have gone to the development areas; they may not have the capacity to lay down the deposits required, particularly those companies which have not had time to settle, and certainly some which placed orders for imports before 27th November. Therefore, I hope that Ministers will look at this question, and try to introduce into the Bill in Committee an Amendment which will take into account the need to deal with this problem of imports in transition before 27th November, and the corollary, the small firms which order imports but cannot have delivery within the first six months. Such firms should have some special consideration on grounds of hardship.

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  There is an important part of the problem which may not be felt by a larger firm. It would seem to me a pity that the Bill should be implemented as it stands, across the board. If an importer cannot meet his deposit, or falls short in his business, that may be to the advantage of the larger importer dealing with the same kind of product. In other words, the Bill might create business for the large businessman to the detriment of the smaller businessman. It is proper we should ask the Chancellor to look with special care at the question of the small and medium firms.
  The problem of the balance of trade, as distinct from the balance of payments, has been with us for many years. The Conservative Party had over a decade in which to solve it; it failed to do so. Indeed, during its term of office it created something which, I hope, will never be seen again, and that is the division of the country into two nations. We had in the Northern Region unemployment of the worst possible kind, and in Wales, Merseyside and Scotland. We are concerned about the solutions which our Government produce. We feel free to criticise the party opposite; not only has it lost the opportunity, but, so far as I am concerned, it has nearly lost the right.
  9.31 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I hope that those hon. Members who have not spoken, some of whom have sat throughout the day, will forgive me if I say that it is time we drew the debate to a close. I listened to this debate, and to the debate on Tuesday, on the Ways and Means Resolution, with some nostalgia, which may seem strange for one who entered the House only in October, 1964. Many of the speeches which we have heard in these two debates are echoes of the speeches which were made in the debates on the temporary charge on imports, which was a feature of the first Finance Bill in which I had the pleasure to take part.
  We have had arguments about the same products and the same machinery, and also the same arguments about legality under G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A. I hope that the Minister of State will give a clear answer to the question which was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). I am
  854
  tempted to say that this is where I came in; it is not a mere figure of speech, since we are back again to square one.
  The public reaction to the measures which the Chancellor announced last Friday has been one of utter dejection, summed up best perhaps in a headline last Saturday, "Weary resignation greets clampdown". What a contrast it would have been had it said, "Government's resignation greets clampdown." However total the Government's failure, however disastrous the management of our affairs, they will not resign; they will stagger on, desperately hoping for something to turn up.
  In the meantime, we are again debating the forty-first instalment since October, 1964 which the Government have tried to force on to the economy. We are playing our parts in a serial story which for grim interminability makes the everlasting tale of "Peyton Place" look like a rollicking French farce. The harsh truth is that these two measures which the House is asked to approve tonight have been necessitated by the failure of the Government's post-devaluation policies. The spending spree has taken its toll not so much by sucking in a vast quantity of consumer goods that would be to misrepresent the figures —but, by causing a domestic boom at home, it has caused an upsurge of imports of raw materials, fuel and semi-processed manufactures.
  If we compare the figures for the first six months of 1968 with the second and third quarters of 1967, 70 per cent. of the increased import costs is attributable to higher prices and to the increased volume of food, raw materials, fuel and semifinished manufactures, and only 18 per cent. (less than one-fifth) is due to the import of finished consumer products. More significant, of those finished products, the analysis shows that the prices rose by the full 17 per cent. margin of devaluation and the volume rose only by 4 per cent. Thus, all the talk of soaring imports of Japanese transistors, Italian fashions, and, as a letter in The Times had it the other day, of 300-guinea pigskin lined alligator skin briefcases is somewhat wide of the mark. Consumer imports have risen in volume, but only by four per cent. What emerges is that these substantially higher prices

  855
  in the shops do not seem to have deterred buyers.
  Turning to exports, at the time of devaluation we needed a 17 per cent. increase in earnings merely to stand still. As a result of the increases in imports, that figure has risen to 22 per cent. In fact, we have had a volume increase in exports of only 10 per cent. comparing the first half of 1968 with the second and third quarters of 1967. That compares with 12 per cent. in the export boom of 1959–60 and 11 per cent. in 1963–64, when we did not have the price advantage of devaluation. Export prices this last year have risen on average by about 6 per cent., so we have achieved a 16 per cent. improvement in export earnings compared with the 22 per cent. that we needed.
  That is why the trade gap has widened since devaluation, and it demonstrates as nothing else could the sheer magnitude of the task with which we are faced as a result of devaluation. In passing, I am astonished that anyone could ever nave attempted to represent devaluation as presenting great new opportunities for the country.
  Since June, imports have continued to rise faster than exports, but the gap has narrowed somewhat. However, still we are not back to the pre-devaluation situation, and we are a very long way from the £500 million surplus that the Chancellor is aiming to get as a rate for next year. I know that the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) hoped that we were just about to reap the advantages of devaluation. I hope very much that he is right. But he would be a rash man who claimed to be able to forecast it with certainty.
  I have gone into this in some detail because it is necessary to put into context the two measures that we are discussing. If it is true that the import boom has been primarily food, raw materials and semi-processed goods and that the increase in the volume of consumer manufactures has contributed to the increase only to a small extent, where is the case for the import deposit scheme? Further, if imported consumer products have swallowed a 17 per cent. price rise already, what will be the effect of a 2 or may be a 3 per cent. price rise
  856
  due to the cost of the 50 per cent. deposit?
  Assuming that the credit is available —and all the evidence today has been that it will be—it is probable that the further price increases as a result of the deposit scheme will not deter any significant volume of consumer product imports. But, with food, fuel and raw materials exempt, we are left with the major slice of imports—semimanufactures, industrial components and machinery—and it is significant that those are the products about which there has been all the argument. They are the products which were described in the letter which the Chancellor received today from the C.B.I.
  The question is: will the Bill curb exports in this sector? The Financial Secretary was honest enough to say that he simply does not know what the effect will be——
  Mr. Harold Lever: No. I said that I simply would not predict the extent of the effect.
  Mr. Jenkin: Very well; I accept his words. He simply does not know the extent of the effect. He is able to split hairs, and presumably he knows what the difference is.
  In my view, the effect will be little, if at all, and, even then, only in the very short term. To take an example with which I am familiar, that of chemicals, a United Kingdom buyer will import only if he cannot get what he wants from the home market. The 2 per cent. price differential likely to operate will affect only a tiny quantity at the margin. There may be some postponements. Stocks may be run down, and in that way there may be some delay in imports.
  Take the example of machine tools. There may be a marginal shift, but all the evidence shows that imported machine tools are specialist items which are not available in this country, and nor will they be as a result of the Bill. We shall find in both cases that the sum needed to be found by the importer will deplete his cash resources, and that is bound to postpone productive investment in other directions. In either event, this will do far more harm in hammering investment in new productive capacity than it will do good either by cutting imports or by diverting demand to the home trade.

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  We are forced to conclude—indeed, the Financial Secretary was frank enough to say this—that the primary effect of the Bill is not to restrict imports, but to restrict credit. The Chancellor, on 22nd November, when the Bill was introduced, said that it was "peculiarly appropriate." This is the point of the Amendment. But I concede that the purpose of the Bill is to put selective pressure on the liquidity of importers. When the Bill is viewed in this light—as another means of cutting the overall level of demand on the economy—we can appreciate the senseless folly of making the private sector bear the whole of this latest squeeze.
  It is bad enough to raise consumer taxes yet again it is worse to impose a savage credit squeeze on productive industry, which is the principal wealth creating sector in our economy. But it is utterly monstrous to do both these things, yet to leave inviolate the vast programmes of public spending which today take so much higher a proportion of the gross national product than four years ago. That is the case that we make in our Amendment and why we will press it to a Division tonight.
  The effect of the Government's spending programmes, at a time when the gross national product has been rising very slowly, is that out of every £ of extra output since October, 1964 the public sector has taken 15s., leaving only 5s. to be shared among consumer expenditure, private saving and private investment. Is it surprising that in these circumstances private investment, as a percentage of the gross national product, has fallen every year, or that savings, as a percentage of the gross national product, have fallen?
  No one, except perhaps for the wild and woolly economists below the Gangway, could possibly doubt that the economy needs more saving and higher investment. We have not got this. The Government do nothing to help savings and continue to carp about the profits which are the life-blood of investment. I believe that many of the difficulties facing us stem from a basic schizophrenia which recognises that they are managing a mixed economy, yet denies the essential profit element which makes a private economy work.
  858
  Before leaving the Bill, I should like to ask the Minister of State some questions. First, the vexed question of a bond. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will confirm that, until the Bill becomes law, a bond is all that the Customs can ask. Will the 180 days run from the date at which the bond was given, or from the date at which the cash can be demanded when the Bill becomes law?
  Secondly, the Bill makes it clear that the reliefs and remissions that are available for goods intended for export will be available under this scheme. We must recognise that this will cover a vast range of goods which are not subject to duty and for which, therefore, no claim for relief from import duty has had to be made. Does the Minister of State, and particularly the President of the Board of Trade, recognise that there will be an enormous mass of applications for deposit exemptions in respect of goods for which no duty exemption has been required so far.
  Thirdly, bank credit. The evidence is that some banks are already refusing credit to pay the deposits, even for goods which have come in since the Chancellor made his announcement on Friday. The Chancellor stated that some credit would be allowed in the early months. Will the Minister clarify what the position on bank loans to pay the deposits will be? My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Frederic Harris) raised this point and it is one of great importance to those who are faced with this immediate problem.
  I want, finally, to put one small question, but one of great importance, about manpower implications. When the Prime Minister spoke in the debate on the Civil Service, he stated that in future:
  "… Bills should include forecasts of any changes, or postponment of changes, in the non-industrial and industrial staff in Government Departments which are expected to result from a Bill".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st November, 1968; Vol. 773, c. 1546–7.]
  Here is one of the first Government Bills to come before the House after that, and there is no such statement.
  In an Answer to a Question, my hon. Friend the Member for Working (Mr. Onslow) elicited that 250 extra civil servants are likely to be engaged in administering the Bill. I am bound to warn the Chancellor that I think the figure will be

  859
  very much higher than that, because he has not taken account of the flood of applications for relief which will be necessary to take advantage of Section 7 of the Import Duties Act, 1958 and Section 1 of the Finance Act, 1966.
  I turn now to the regulator. Here we have another turn of the screw which is bound to send prices in the shops higher. On Monday, the Chancellor was at pains to exonerate his right hon. Friend the First Secretary of any responsibility for the need to introduce the regulator, but I am bound to say that what he said rang very unconvincing. What did he mean—and my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) asked this—when he said in the debate on 5th November:
  "Prices are better, at least lower than as expected, and consumption, partly as a result, is higher, which, in a sense, means worse"?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1968; Vol. 772, c. 717.]
  That was an extraordinarily convoluted sentence.
  What it boils down to is that the right hon. Lady's use of her statutory powers to delay prices increases resulted in rising demand satisfying itself in higher consumption instead of higher prices as the Chancellor had originally intended. We always said when the right hon. Lady declared war, as she said, on rising prices, that she would set about defeating the Chancellor's strategy, and that is exactly what has happened. That is why he had to tell the House last Friday that he was to use the regulator to put up prices by raising taxes.
  I suppose that we may admire the right hon. Gentleman's chivalrous attitude, but it puts a new twist to the meaning of "a Treasury knight". But he fools no one, except, perhaps, the right hon. Lady, who has never understood his policy. But I suppose that he may take comfort in that he is not the first or the last knight to fall flat on his face after tripping over a lady's skirts. The unpalatable fact remains that her failure has resulted in taxes being raised by £250 million.
  Some of the increases will hit industry very hard. I cannot believe that the Chancellor would have put 4s. extra on a bottle of whisky if he had had power to discriminate when he knows that the industry has not yet recovered from the effect of the 2s. 6d. increase in April.
  860
  The hydrocarbon oil tax was put up in April. In Committee on the Finance Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) said that more than half the increase in petrol duty went on commercial users, and that statement was not challenged by the Financial Secretary. It is often represented that the petrol tax is in some way a luxury tax on motoring, but, in fact, it adds severely to the costs of distribution which have already been raised by the 50 per cent. increase in Selective Employment Tax in September. This tax puts a new twist to the costs spiral.
  Similarly, fuel oil for industry is hit, and that must increase energy costs at a time when at last we were coming to realise that lower energy costs are essential to the success of our industry.
  These two measures, coupled with the hire-purchase curbs and the new un-precedentedly harsh squeeze on bank credit, represent yet one more attempt by the Government to regain mastery over our economic fortunes. Four weeks ago, one of our more widely read weeklies published an article which said:
  "After four years of virtually non-stop squeeze, another turn of the screw—tighter bank credit or H.P. restrictions, or perhaps an increase in indirect tax rates—is rumoured. If it happens, it will be the last confession of bankrupt management."
  The writer was Mr. Roger Opie, an erstwhile Government economic adviser, and the paper was the New Statesman. I cannot improve on his language, but I cannot say the same for his forecasting, for a little later he said:
  "This is not a plea for active reflation, which, of course, would mean import controls."
  Here we have both—an intensification of the squeeze and import controls. This is the forty-first package since this Administration first assumed responsibility for our affairs. What I find so utterly depressing is that in spite of failure after failure after failure Ministers seem totally unable to recognise that they have forfeited any claims to the confidence of the people.
  Do not they realise that the people are sick and tired of them—of their evasions, their deceit, their sheer incompetence? These measures, by forcing industry into what will be the tightest economic straitjacket that we have ever had to endure in peace time, may help

  861
  to retrieve the slither of the last 12 months: time will tell. What is absolutely certain is that they should never have been necessary. Here we have the Government, entering on their fifth year of office, not one yard nearer the goal of solvency. It is because, while they continue in office, we see neither prospects nor even hope of any end to the nation's woes, that we condemn them tonight and we shall express our condemnation in the Division Lobby.
  9.52 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Dick Taverne): I turn first to the Amendment. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) made a brave attempt to link the Amendment to the Motion to give a Second Reading to a Bill, which is essentially concerned with an immediate problem, but his attempt was completely destroyed in an able and remarkable speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), who pointed out that the savings for which the right hon. Gentle-roan was asking were alternative cuts in private consumption. We are discussing an immediate impact on the balance of payments position, and the suggestion that comes from the right hon. Gentleman is that this problem is to be solved by a different method of paying council house rents. It is a totally illogical proposition.
  At least on this occasion the right hon. Gentleman did not put forward the argument advanced by his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who seemed to suggest that these problems would be solved by a new system of agricultural import levies. With such a system there is no question that any immediate impact on the balance of payments could be obtained, whatever the other objections, because a change in the system would De contrary to our international obligations.It would need elaborate international negotiations, and it is inconceivable that it would have a short-term impact on our balance of payments position.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East conceded that there were difficulties in cutting public expenditure. Everyone knows that. As was pointed cut as long ago as in the Plowden Report, short-term economy campaigns are
  862
  damaging to the real control of public expenditure. It is totally inconsistent with rational management if plans are drastically changed from time to time in the way that the right hon Gentleman now wants to change them.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that it may be unpleasant and it may be difficult, but, if necessary, it has to be done. He said that public expenditure was just as productive of imports as private expenditure. He must know that this is totally untrue. He must know that the import content of public sector spending is many times less than the import content of private sector spending.
  There is only one field in which there is a direct relationship between public spending and our balance of payments, and that is defence. What is the policy of the party opposite on defence? Cuts east of Suez, which would have a direct impact on our balance of payments, are opposed by hon. Members opposite. Cuts east of Suez are to be disregarded as methods of solving our balance of payments, but a system of higher rents for council tenants will apparently solve the problem.
  Indeed, the inconsistency of the Opposition's approach could not have been better illustrated than by the business which immediately preceded this debate. Then the announcement was made about the reorganisation of the Territorial Army. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite cried "Shame" then and they still cry "Shame". They were opposed to another Measure which would not only reorganise the Territorial Army but save £20 million of public expenditure.
  Sir K. Joseph: My criticism was that the Chancellor and the Government did not use the psychological opportunity of devaluation to set in train a proper and efficient reduction in public expenditure which is absorbing more and more as a proportion of our national resources.
  Mr. Taverne: I will come to that. In any event, the right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. He knows that there is no connection whatever between the Amendment and the Bill. Why was the Amendment moved? As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary pointed out, it was designed to hide the differences

  863
  which exist inside the Conservative Party. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. A number of hon. Members who have not heard the debate seem to want to join in unofficially.
  Mr. Taverne: Perhaps I might point out, for the benefit of hon. Members who were not present in large numbers during the debate, that today has been the day of the free traders. if they read the OFFICIAL REPORT Of our proceedings they will see that that has been so and that Monday and Tuesday were the days of the protectionists.
  The public expenditure argument is relevant to the Order for the Regulator, and I will therefore comment on this issue. We of course accept the need for strict control on public expenditure—[Interruption.]—and in order to divert resources into exports far-reaching cuts in public expenditure were made in January of last year, when £300 million was cut from public expenditure planned for the present year and £440 million for the year 1969–70. As the Chancellor said in Monday's debate, public expenditure this year is exactly in line with the January forecast and the January White Paper. [Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite must accept this as a fact. It is exactly in line with the January White Paper. We intend, as set out in the White Paper, to keep the increase in public expenditure in the next year at 1 per cent.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite are asking that we should cut back next year—it clearly could not be done this year—and they are therefore asking us to cut back on the increase of 1 per cent. in next year's public expenditure. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East is totally wrong in saying that public expenditure is increasing faster than the gross national product. As the January White Paper pointed out—it is clear that the right hon. Gentleman has not read it—public expenditure is going ahead according to plan. The growth in public expenditure in the next few years will be well within the projected growth of the G.N.P.
  Mr. John Smith: We have often heard that
  864
  Government expenditure is in line with the estimate. Would the Minister's bank manager accept it as an excuse for his overdraft if he said that his expenditure was in line with his estimate?
  Mr. Taverne: The hon. Gentleman would have a valid point if our problems were caused by public expenditure increasing by more than we had anticipated. However, as the Chancellor pointed out in Monday's debate, what has gone wrong with the forecast has not been public expenditure but private consumption. It is at private consumption that these measures are directed.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) attacked the use of the regulator. He said it would increase unemployment because, he said, this was part of the standard deflationary measures he associated with the party opposite. I must remind him that these measures are being imposed at a time when the trend of production is upward, when the unemployment trend is downward, when the trend in vacancies is upward and exports are rising strongly. That is the background against which these measures have been imposed.
  It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Business of the House (Customs (Import Deposits) Bill) may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Roy Jenkins.]

CUSTOMS (IMPORT DEPOSITS) BILL
Question again proposed.
Mr. Michael Foot: I am aware of the trend in the unemployment figures to which my hon. and learned Friend referred, and I welcomed it in my speech. What I asked was how much he thinks that trend will be reversed by these present measures.
Mr. Taverne: The trend for industrial production is upward and for employment it is upward. While there may be a marginal slowing-down, the trend for industrial production is upward.

865
The main issue before the House tonight is the Customs (Import Deposits) Bill. In dealing with the Bill, I want, first, to dispose of a number of preliminary points which have been made in the debate and to answer some of the questions before coming to the main principles involved in the scheme. My lion. Friend the Member for Heywood and Barnet—[Laughter.] Sometimes my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton and the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) speak the same language, but on this occasion I refer only to my hon. Friend. He gave this Bill somewhat reluctant support. Of course he is not alone in this. (HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The Government have introduced this Bill with a certain amount of reluctance.
It was made absolutely clear that the Government view this as a temporary Measure, as a Measure which is necessary in present circumstances to have an immediate impact on balance of payments, but our long-term concern is not with import controls, and certainly not with import quotas. We accept that there will be inconvenience and that there will be anomalies. It is with reluctance that one introduces a Measure of this kind, but its aim is to have an immediate effect on balance of payments which the events of last week made even more necessary than before. It is still necessary to introduce a Bill for the purposes which I shall mention.
Another point I want to dispose of is fie suggestion in the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East that the previous noises favourable to this kind of scheme, made for example by the right hon. Member for Barnet, were concerned with a very different kind of scheme. The hon. Member tried to suggest that feeling in favour of this kind of scheme could not possibly apply. Of course the hon. Member cannot say that hon. Members opposite favour the Italian scheme but would not look at a scheme like this, because his right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) said only a few days ago, and I should have thought the hon. Member would have remembered:
"I have said that I believe that if there is to be a move in this field, then this is the test of various schemes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 25th November, 1968; Vol 774, c. 1451
866
The right hon. Gentleman cannot hide behind the fact that the Italian scheme in some respects is different. To meet this situation the Italian scheme would be less favourable than this scheme. It would accelerate payments abroad whereas this scheme, also a scheme of credit control would, if anything, have the opposite effect. So there is no question about this scheme being in any way inconsistent with the kind of scheme which the right hon. Member for Barnet has in the past advocated.
I come next to some of the detailed questions. I was asked how many civil servants will be needed to administer this scheme. I am informed by the Customs that something like 250 will be needed altogether, but only something like 170 at the outset, and these will be mainly civil servants diverted from other work in the other departments in the Customs themselves. It will mean squeezing other work, and there will he considerable strain on a number of Customs officials, but the ending of the export rebate has made available a number of officials who were not available before.
I was asked about the legal effect——
Mr. Cranley Onslow Mr. Cranley Onslow (Woking) rose——
Mr. Taverne: I cannot give way on all these points.
I was asked about the legal effect under the E.F.T.A. Treaty. The decision as to whether or not the measure is contrary to the E.F.T.A. Treaty is not a matter for an international court. It is taken up within the E.F.T.A. Council, where it is decided in the normal way, and we have every confidence that we shall reach an understanding with our partners.
I think that it was the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) who asked me about the drawback in the case of our exports to E.F.T.A. I shall look into the matter, but again I understand that it is one that must be decided within the E.F.T.A. framework. Not only shall we discuss it in the future, but discussions on this kind of problem have already started.
My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton asked whether the 50 per cent. deposit would be 50 per cent. net of cash discount or gross. It will

867
be 50 per cent. of the value of the goods, and for this purpose value is as defined in the Customs and Excise Act, which is the value of the goods on a sale in the open market, and not necessarily the price paid by the importer for them.
I was also asked about the Purchase Tax effect. Purchase Tax will be levied on the wholesale value, which is the price the retailer pays to the wholesaler.
The question of help for re-exports is dealt with in paragraph 3 of Schedule 2. But there are some respects in which we are not entirely happy with the paragraph as it stands and propose to amend it in Committee, when the matter can be discussed further.
I was asked whether there would be obstacles of any kind to interest paid abroad for loans for the deposits made by foreign banks. The short answer is that there will be no obstacles to this. The interest will be payable.
It is realised that there will be difficulties about goods in transit. This happened before in the case of the temporary import surcharge, but we cannot exempt goods in transit, first, because if we did so there would be a very substantial inroad into the scheme as a whole, and, second, because infinitely complex problems of definition would arise as to whether goods were in transit, whether they had already been contracted to be paid for, and whether the property had passed. This is no doubt a matter that will be further considered in Committee.
I was asked about the present position and whether the undertakings given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary are being complied with. The answer is, "Yes". We are not aware of any difficulties at the docks. We are not aware of any difficulties with the Customs. It is absolutely clear that they are acting in accordance with the undertaking.
The hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) asked me about the period from which the 180 days will run. It will be 180 days from the date of the receipt of the cash deposits.
I come to the principles of the scheme——
Sir C. Osborne: Could the Minister tell us by how much the Government expect imports to be cut by the Bill?
Mr. Taverne: I am coming to the principles, the main aims, of the scheme, and the kind of effect it is envisaged that it might have. I shall deal with the hon. Gentleman's question in its proper place.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East asked, what is the aim of the Bill? It is clear. It is a stop-gap Measure, a temporary measure, to accelerate the improvement in our balance of payments, and it is therefore no answer to say, in opposition to the Bill, that it will have only a temporary effect. It is intended to be of only temporary effect. It is intended to be an intermediate Measure.
It is basically a system of credit restriction whose effect is diffused into the economy as a whole through acting on importers, and it will work in two ways. First, there is every reason to suppose that it will have a direct effect on the volume of imports. Hon. Members opposite have tried to have it in different ways. Some have said that it will not have any effect on imports because everyone will be able to obtain credit. Others have said that it will ruin small importers. They cannot have it both ways. [Interruption.] But the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East tried to have it both ways in his own speech. Other hon. Members have contradicted each other. He was the only one who contradicted himself. Of course both these things cannot happen. [Interruption.] If this is——
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is difficult for anyone to address the House against a background of a multitude of debates.
Mr. Taverne: If this is going to be a major obstacle for people to overcome, it will have an effect on the volume of imports. If finance will be easily available, there will not be the ruination of many small businesses. I agree with my hon. Friend who said that the direct effect on imports is likely to be marginal. I agree with others of my hon. Friends who have said that, in most cases, obtaining of the necessary credit will not prove impossible. But a marginal effect is not necessarily a negligible effect because a marginal effect on several thousand million pounds worth of imports can make a very substantial and immediate contribution to our balance of payments.

869
I appreciate the difficulties of small companies, although not many small companies are direct importers. In any event, it is not the size of the company but the proportion which imports bear to the total trade of the company which is the crucial issue. To some extent, some will be able to look to the banks.
The hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford asked me about the position of the banks. It will be for the banks to decide. We have said that they must stay within their ceilings. If it should turn out to be impossible to get the necessary finance from the banks, what about the highly developed capital market the Opposition are so often telling us about —the infinitely flexible, versatile capital market? Of course, there will be other sources from which certain firms will be able to obtain finance. It may be that they will have to look for it from sources different from those they have been used to—perhaps to finance houses or through credit from their customers. In certain circumstances, it may be that they will obtain credit from abroad. If they do, this will mean an immediate and welcome benefit to the sterling reserves.
Sir John Rodgers: What would be the position, therefore, if the German National Bank or other national banks were to offer credit for a six months period? Would that be welcome to the Bank of England?
Mr. Taverne: If the supplier gives credit, it means that payment will be made later. If a foreign bank supplies the equivalent of the deposit and gives a loan, this will have the immediate effect of an increase in our reserves.
The reason why there seems every reason to suppose that this will have an effect on volume is, first, that it will undoubtedly affect prices through the interest which will have to be paid on deposits, which in itself should produce an effect on volume. Second, while the difficulties of obtaining credit may not be insuperable for everyone, they will undoubtedly be some deterrent and will encourage some importers to look for alternative sources at home, or at least to postpone and reduce their demands for supplies from abroad. But even if it does not have a direct effect on the volume of imports, there will still be an indirect
870
effect because so far as deposits are raised at home, they will withdraw from the amount of liquidity available and this in turn should affect the amount available for consumption and reduce the liquidity of the economy and the general pressures on the economy.
This Measure is far less harmful than any of the alternatives, as hon. Gentlemen have said many times. Its impact will be immediate and temporary and it will do a great deal to enable the underlying trend to establish itself. It complies in all respects with the principles after which the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) hankered when he wrote his article in The Banker. In these circumstances, I strongly recommend the Bill to the House.
10.17 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Some of us get tired of hearing these theoretical speeches from the Dispatch Box. People talk on the theory, but have no understanding of the practical difficulties and it is time that the House sent a practical message to the country instead of all this academic, theoretical nonsense.
The only reason that I have risen is that the hon. and learned Gentleman said, from his theoretical posture, that it was not possible at one and the same time for this not to affect our imports and for the small people to go bankrupt. From a practical point of view, both of these things are possible and, I suggest, likely. We know that the big boys in importing may find the money to pay the deposits and will be able to get the foreign banks to give them the credit to get over this obstacle. We know that the big boys will absorb much of the business which the bankrupt small men will have to hand over because they cannot find anyone to give them the credit.
In this case, the objective of restricting imports cannot be achieved, while, at the same time, an unfair and horrible burden will be put on many people who have played a big part in maintaining the economy.
10.19 p.m.
Mr. Roe Roebuck Mr. Roe Roebuck (Harrow, East) rose——
Hon. Members: Oh, no.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must protect the rights of any hon. Member who wishes to take part in the debate, even if he has changed his mind twice about doing so during the debate.
Mr. Roebuck: I am incited to speak by the speech of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). I want to accuse the Opposition of outrageous humbug in putting down this Amendment. I am fortified in doing that by the speech of the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne). The hon. Member for Louth, with that forthrightness and straightforwardness for which he is noted in the House, and which has endeared him to the whole nation, said earlier that there was a lack of hon. Members on the Opposition side. This is very true and I wonder why that should be so, because previously we had heard that the Opposition were to mount a massive attack upon my right hon. Friends. It seems extraordinary that they did not do so. There may be two reasons for that. One might be that——
Mr. James Hamilton: On a point of order. Many of us sat here all day with the intention of participating in this debate. We were assured that there was an agreement by both Front Benches—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The House wants to hear what this mysterious agreement was.
Mr. Roebuck Mr. Roebuck rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am being addressed on a point of order.
Mr. Hamilton: We were informed that this debate would finish at 10.20 to allow hon. Members from the North to get home to their constituencies and we thus concurred with the wishes of the Whips on both sides. Now we have the situation where hon. Members who are domiciled in London are prepared to keep the debate going and not allow their colleagues to get home to their constituents.
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is not a point of order. It is a point of Scotland. Does the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) wish to continue?
Mr. Roebuck: There are occasions when I take no notice of the Whips, par-
872
ticularly when I am incited by the Opposition.
The point I was making about what the hon. Member for Louth said was that there could be two reasons for the lack of attendance by hon. Members opposite. One could be that they were negligent in their duties, and I would not suggest that for one moment. The other could be that their hearts were not in the task which their masters had set them. That is the real reason. The Opposition today are led as incompetently as if they were led by Lord Raglan. What we have had today has been a sham show, a sham fight. I suggest that this Amendment——
Sir Knox Cunningham: On a point of order—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Sir Knox Cunningham Sir Knox Cunningham rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman, who wants to raise a point of order, might observe order himself. The Speaker is on his feet.
Sir Knox Cunningham: I want to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, Mr. Speaker. Can there be silence?
Mr. Speaker: I share the hon. and learned Gentleman's passionate desire to hear the hon. Member.
Mr. Roebuck: I shall condense my observations and will not give the quotations that I could.
The point I want to make is that for months, indeed years, the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) has advocated a system of restriction on import credits. I gave him notice that I would raise this if I were fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. As long ago as July, 1966, in this House, the right hon. Member advocated a system of controls on import credit. As my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State has said, he repeated this view as recently as June of this year, in The Banker.
The Opposition have tacked on to their Amendment the point about public expenditure. I want to point out that in July, 1966, the rate of public expenditure was far higher than it is today. That is why this Amendment—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have a feeling that the House wants to come to a decision. I must protect the hon. Gentleman's right to speak, but I hope that he will take note of the obvious desire of the House.
Mr. Roebuck: I shall finish in one sentence, Mr. Speaker.
This Amendment demonstrates again to the country that the Opposition are unfit not only to govern, but to oppose.
Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 243, Noes 304.

Division No. 15.]

AYES

[10.26 p.m.

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Fortescue, Tim

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Foster, Sir John

McMaster Stanley

Astor, John

Fraser, Rt.Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

Maddan, Martin

Awdry, Dariel

Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

Maginnis, John E.

Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Marten, Neil

Balniel, Lord

Glover, Sir Douglas

Maude, Angus

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Glyn, Sir Richard

Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

Batsford, Brian

Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

Mawby, Ray

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Goodhart, Philip

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Bell, Ronald

Goodhew, Victor

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

Gower, Raymond

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Grant, Anthony

Miscampbell, Norman

Biffen, John

Gresham-Cooke, R.

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Biggs-Davison, John

Grieve, Percy

Monro, Hector

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Montgomery, Fergus

Black, Sir Cyril

Gurden, Harold

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Blaker, Peter

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Boardman, Tom (Leicester S.W.)

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Body, Richard

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Bossom, Sir Clive

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Murton, Oscar

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Brewis, John

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

Neave, Airey

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Hastings, Stephen

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Hawkins, Paul

Nott, John

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hay, John

Onslow, Cranley

Bryan, Paul

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

Heseltine, Michael

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Higgins, Terence L.

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Bullus, Sir Eric

Hiley, Joseph

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Burden, F. A.

Hill, J. E. B.

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

Hirst, Geoffrey

Pardoe, John

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Hogg Rt. Hn. Quintin

Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Hordern, Peter

Peel, John

Cary, Sir Robert

Hornby, Richard

Percival, Ian

Channon, H. P. G.

Howell, David (Guildford)

Peyton, John

Chichester-Clark, R.

Hunt John

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Clark, Henry

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Pink, R. Bonner

Clegg, Walter

Iremonger, T. L.

Pounder, Rafton

Cooke, Robert

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Cordle, John

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Corfield, F. V.

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Prior, J. M. L.

Costain, A. P.

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Pym, Francis

Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

Jopling, Michael

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Crouch, David

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Crowder, F. P.

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Kerby Capt. Henry

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Currie, G. B. H.

Kershaw, Anthony

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kimball, Marcus

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Dance, James

Kirk, Peter

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Kitson, Timothy

Ridsdale, Julian

Dean, Paul

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

Deeds, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

Lambton, Viscount

Robson Brown, Sir William

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Lancaster Col. C. G.

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Donnelly, Desmond

Lane, David

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Doughty, Charles

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Royle, Anthony

Drayson, G. B.

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Russell, Sir Ronald

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Eden, Sir John

Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

Sandys Rt. Hn. D.

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

Scott, Nicholas

Emery, Peter

Longden, Gilbert

Scott-Hopkins, James

Errington, Sir Eric

Loveys, W. H.

Sharples, Richard

Eyre, Reginald

Lubbock, Eric

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Farr, John

McNair-Wilson, Patrick

Silvester Frederick

Fisher, Nigel

MacArthur, Ian

Sinclair, Sir George

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

Smith, John (London & W'minster)

Tilney, John

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Speed Keith

Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

Williams, Donald (Dudley)

Stainton, Keith

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Steel, David (Roxburgh)

Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Stodart, Anthony

Vickers, Dame Joan

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Waddington David

Woodnutt, Mark

Tapsell, Peter

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Worsley, Marcus

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Wall, Patrick

Wright, Esmond

Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

Walters, Dennis

Wylie, N. R.

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Ward, Dame Irene

Teeling, Sir William

Weatherill, Bernard

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Temple John M.

Webster, David

Mr. R. W. Elliott and

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Mr. Jasper More.

NOES

Abse, Leo

Dewar, Donald

Hynd, John

Albu, Austen

Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Dickens, James

Jackson Colin (B'h'se & Spenh'gh)

Alldritt, Walter

Dobson, Ray

Janner, Sir Barnett

Allen, Scholefield

Doig, Peter

Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Anderson, Donald

Dunn, James, A.

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

Archer, Peter

Dunnett, Jack

Jenkins Hugh (Putney)

Ashley, Jack

Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

Ashton, J. W.

Eadle, Alex

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

Edelman, Maurice

Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Ellis, John

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda West)

Bagier Gordon A. T.

English, Michael

Judd, Frank

Barnes, Michael

Ennals, David

Kelley, Richard

Barnett, Joel

Ensor, David

Kenyon, Clifford

Baxter, William

Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

Beaney, Alan

Faulds, Andrew

Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Fernyhough, E.

Lawson, George

Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

Finch, Harold

Leadbitter, Ted

Bidwell, Sydney

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

Binns, John

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

Bishop, E. S.

Foley, Maurice

Lee John (Reading)

Blackburn, F.

Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

Lestor, Miss Joan

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Booth, Albert

Ford, Ben

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Boston, Terence

Forrester, John

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

Fowler, Gerry

Lewis Ron (Carlisle)

Boyden, James

Fraser, John (Norwood)

Lomas, Kenneth

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Freeson, Reginald

Loughlin Charles

Bradley, Tom

Gardner, Tony

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Bray, Dr. Jeremy

Garrett, W. E.

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Ginsburg, David

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

McBride, Neil

Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

McCann, John

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

MacColl, James

Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

Gregory, Arnold

Macdonald, A. H.

Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Grey, Charles (Durham)

McKay Mrs. Margaret

Buchan, Norman

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

Mackie, John

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

Maclennan, Robert

Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

Cant, R. B.

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Carmichael, Neil

Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

MacPherson, Malcolm

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Hamling, William

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Hannan, William

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Chapman, Donald

Harper, Joseph

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Coe, Denis

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Coleman, Donald

Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

Manuel, Archie

Concannon, J. D.

Haseldine, Norman

Mapp, Charles

Conlan, Bernard

Hattersley, Roy

Marks, Kenneth

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Hazell, Bert

Marquand, David

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

Crawshaw, Richard

Henig, Stanley

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Cronin, John

Herbison Rt. Hn. Margaret

Mayhew, Christopher

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Hilton, W. S.

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Hobden, Dennis

Mendelson, John

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Hooley, Frank

Mikardo, Ian

Dalyell, Tam

Horner, John

Darling, Rt. Hn. George

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Millan, Bruce

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Howarth Harry (Wellingborough)

Miller, Dr. M. S.

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Milne, Edward (Blyth)

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

Howie, W.

Molloy, William

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Huckfield, Leslie

Moonman, Eric

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Hughes Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Delargy, Hugh

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Dell, Edmund

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Morris, John (Aberavon)

Dempsey, James

Hunter, Adam

Moyle, Roland

876

877

Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Rankin, John

Taverne, Dick

Murray, Albert

Rees, Merlyn

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

Neal, Harold

Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W.

Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

Newens, Stan

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Thornton, Ernest

Noel-Baker, Rt.Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Richard, Ivor

Tinn, James

Oakes, Gordon

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Tomney Frank

Ogden, Eric

Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

Urwin, T. W.

O'Malley, Brian

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Varley, Eric G.

Oram, Albert E.

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Walden, Brian (All Saints)

Orbach, Maurice

Robinson, Rt.Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Orme, Stanley

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Wallace George

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

Roebuck, Roy

Watkins, David (Consett)

Owen, Will (Morpeth)

Rogers George (Kensington, N.)

Weitzman, David

Padley, Walter

Rose, Paul

Wellbeloved James

Paget, R. T.

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Palmer, Arthur

Rowlands, E.

Whitaker, Ben

Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

Ryan, John

White, Mrs. Eirene

Park, Trevor

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Whitlock, William

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Sheldon, Robert

Wilkins, W. A.

Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Short, Rt.Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Pavitt, Laurence

Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)

Williams, Alan Lee (Hornehurck)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Williams W. T. (Warrington)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Silverman, Julius

Willis, Rt. Hn. George

Pentland, Norman

Skeffington, Arthur

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

Slater, Joseph

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

Small, William

Winnick, David

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Snow, Julian

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Spriggs, Leslie

Woof, Robert

Prim, Thomas (Westhoughton)

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Wyatt Woodrow

Price, William (Rugby)

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

Probert, Arthur

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Swain, Thomas

Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

Randall, Harry

Swingler, Stephen

Mr. Ioan L. Evans.

Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 39 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading) and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Harper.]
Committee Tomorrow.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE AND PURCHASE TAX
Motion made, and Question put:—
That the Surcharge on Revenue Duties Order, 1968 1968. No. 1845), dated 22nd November, 1968, a copy of which was laid before this House on that date, be approved. —[Mr. Taverne]
The House divided: Ayes 282. Noes 242.

Division No. 16.]

AYES

[10.40 p.m.

Abse, Leo

Buchan, Norman

Dempsey, James

Albu, Austen

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Dewar, Donald

Alldritt, Walter

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

Allen, Scholefield

Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

Dobson, Ray

Anderson, Donald

Cant, R. B.

Doig, Peter

Archer, Peter

Carmichael, Neil

Dunn, James A.

Ashley, Jack

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Dunnett, Jack

Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

Ashton, J. W.

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Eadie, Alex

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Chapman, Donald

Edelman, Maurice

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Coe, Denis

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

Barnes, Michael

Coleman, Donald

Ellis, John

Barnett, Joel

Concannon, J. D.

English, Michael

Baxter, William

Conlan, Bernard

Ennals, David

Bence, Cyril

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Ensor, David

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

Crawshaw, Richard

Faulds, Andrew

Bishop, E. S.

Cronin, John

Fernyhough, E.

Blackburn, F.

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Finch, Harold

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Boston, Terence

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

Dalyell, Tam

Foley, Maurice

Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

Boyden, James

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Ford, Ben

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Forrester, John

Bradley, Tom

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Fowler, Gerry

Bray, Dr. Jeremy

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

Fraser, John (Norwood)

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Freeson, Reginald

Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Gardner, Tony

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Garrett, W. E.

Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

Delargy, Hugh

Ginsburg, David

Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Dell, Edmund

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Rees, Merlyn

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

McBride, Neil

Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W.

Gregory, Arnold

McCann, John

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Grey, Charles (Durham)

MacColl, James

Richard, Ivor

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Macdonald, A. H.

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

McKay, Mrs. Margaret

Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Mackie, John

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

Maclennan, Robert

Robinson, Rt.Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)

Hamling, William

McNamara, J. Kevin

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Hannan, William

MacPherson, Malcolm

Roebuck, Roy

Harper, Joseph

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Rose, Paul

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Rowlands, E.

Haseldine, Norman

Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Hattersley, Roy

Manuel, Archie

Sheldon, Robert

Hazell, Bert

Mapp, Charles

Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

Marks, Kenneth

Short, Rt.Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Henig, Stanley

Marquand, David

Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N. E.)

Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Hilton, W. S.

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Silverman, Julius

Hobden, Dennis

Mayhew, Christopher

Skeffington, Arthur

Hooley, Frank

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Slater, Joseph

Horner, John

Mendelson, John

Small, William

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Millan, Bruce

Snow, Julian

Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

Miller, Dr. M. S.

Spriggs, Leslie

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Milne, Edward (Blyth)

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

Howie, W.

Molloy, William

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Huckfield, Leslie

Moonman, Eric

Swingler, Stephen

Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Taverne, Dick

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

Hunter, Adam

Morris, John (Aberavon)

Thornton, Ernest

Hynd, John

Moyle, Roland

Tine, James

Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Tourney, Frank

Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

Murray, Albert

Urwin, T. W.

Janner, Sir Barnett

Neal, Harold

Varley, Eric G.

Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Noel-Baker, Rt.Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Walden, Brian (All Saints)

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

Oakes, Gordon

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Ogden, Eric

Wallace, George

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

O'Malley, Brian

Watkins, David (Consett)

Oram, Albert E.

Weitzman, David

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Orbach, Maurice

Wellbeloved, James

Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Owen, Will (Morpeth)

Whitaker, Ben

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

Padley, Walter

White, Mrs. Eirene

Judd, Frank

Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

Whitlock, William

Kelley, Richard

Palmer, Arthur

Wilkins, W. A.

Kenyon, Clifford

Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Kerr, Russel (Feltham)

Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

Lawson, George

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Leadbitter, Ted

Pavitt, Laurence

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Willis, Rt. Hn. George

Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Lestor, Miss Joan

Pentland, Norman

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

Winnick, David

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Woof, Robert

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

Wyatt, Woodrow

Lomas, Kenneth

Price, William (Rugby)

Loughlin, Charles

Probert, Arthur

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Rankin, John

Mr. Ioan L. Evans.

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Black, Sir Cyril

Bullus, Sir Eric

Astor, John

Blaker, Peter

Burden, F. A.

Atkins, Humphrey (M't' & M'd'n)

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

Awdry, Daniel

Body, Richard

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

Bossom, Sir Clive

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

Cary, Sir Robert

Balniel, Lord

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Channon, H. P. C.

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Braine, Bernard

Chichester-Clark, R.

Batsford, Brian

Brewis, John

Clark, Henry

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Clegg, Walter

Bell, Ronald

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Cooke, Robert

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Corfield, F. V.

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Costain, A. P.

Biffen, John

Bryan, Paul

Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

Biggs-Davison, John

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

Crouch, David

880

881

Crowder, F. P.

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Currie, G. B. H.

Jopling, Michael

Prior, J. M. L.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Pym, Fancis

Dance, James

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Quennell, Miss J. M.

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Dean, Paul

Kershaw, Anthony

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

Kimball, Marcus

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Kirk, Peter

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Dannelly, Desmond

Kitson, Timothy

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Doughty, Charles

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Drayson, G. B.

Lambton, Viscount

Ridsdale, Julian

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

Eden, Sir John

Lane, David

Robson Brown, Sir William

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Emery, Peter

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Errington, Sir Eric

Lloyd, Rt.Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

Royle, Anthony

Eyre, Reginald

Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

Russell, Sir Ronald

Farr, John

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Fisher, Nigel

Longden, Gilbert

Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Loveys, W. H.

Scott, Nicholas

Fortescue, Tim

Lubbock, Eric

Scott-Hopkins, James

Foster, Sir John

MacArthur, Ian

Sharples, Richard

Fraser, Rt.Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty)

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Silvester, Frederick

Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

McMaster, Stanley

Sinclair, Sir George

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

McNair-Wilson, Patrick

Smith, John (London & W'minster)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Maddan, Martin

Speed, Keith

Glyn, Sir Richard

Maginnis, John E.

Stainton, Keith

Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

Steel, David (Roxburgh)

Gcodhart, Philip

Marten, Neil

Stodart, Anthony

Goodhew, Victor

Maude, Angus

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Gower, Raymond

Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

Tapsell, Peter

Grant, Anthony

Mawby, Ray

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Gresham Cooke, R.

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

Grieve, Percy

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Teeling, Sir William

Gurden, Harold

Miscampbell, Norman

Temple, John M.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Monro, Hector

Tilney, John

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Montgomery, Fergus

Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Vickers, Dame Joan

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Waddington, David

Hervie Anderson, Miss

Murton, Oscar

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Hastings, Stephen

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Wall, Patrick

Hawkins, Paul

Heave, Airey

Walters, Dennis

Hay, John

Nicholls, Sir Harmer

Ward, Dame Irene

Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Weatherill, Bernard

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Nott, John

Webster, David

Heseltine, Michael

Onslow, Cranley

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Higgins, Terence L.

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Hiley, Josepn

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Williams, Donald (Dudley)

Hill, J. E. B.

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Hirst, Geoffrey

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Holland, Philip

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Hordern, Peter

Pardoe, John

Woodnutt, Mark

Hornby, Richard

Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

Worsley, Marcus

Howell, David (Guildford)

Peel, John

Wright, Esmond

Hunt, John

Percival, Ian

Wylie, N. R.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Peyton, John

Iremonger, T. L.

Pike, Miss Mervyn

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Pink, R. Bonner

Mr. R. W. Elliott and

Jerkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Pounder, Rafton

Mr. Jasper More.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (CUSTOMS (IMPORT DEPOSITS) BILL)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, notwithstanding the practice of the House relating to the interval between the various stages of a Bill brought in on a Ways and Means Resolution, more than one stage of the Customs (Import Deposits) Bill may be proceeded with at any Sitting of the House.—[Mr. Harper.]
10.50 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I merely want to make one point. Clearly, there will be Amendments for the Report stage of the Bill. If the Report stage is taken immediately following the Committee stage, it may be necessary for manuscript Amendments to be put in

883
Mr. Speaker, although it is entirely a is a matter for you, I should be grateful if the Government could say that they would have no objection to this being done.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): I can only echo
884
what the hon. Gentleman has said. It is a matter for the Chair. Whatever the Chair decides we happily and joyfully subscribe to.
Mr. Speaker: The Chair has no comment at this stage.
Question put and agreed to.

DISABLED PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT)
Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]
10.53 p.m.
Mr. Jack Ashley: Mr. Speaker, I greatly appreciate this opportunity of raising the question of the disabled unemployed. I must say frankly to my right hon. Friend, and to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary who is to reply to the debate, that I am not raising this issue on the Adjournment simply to provide an opportunity for the reiteration of the unsatisfactory Answers already given at Question Time. I am raising it to challenge the Answers, to criticise the policy, and to invite the Government to change it.
The House will be conscious of the high standards set by my hon. Friend and of his deep personal concern for the unemployed and disabled. The same applies to my right hon. Friend, though she is unable to be present tonight. But, though their hearts are in the right place, their policies are all wrong. As a result of their policies the unemployment rate for the registered disabled is over four times the national average and now stands at the disgraceful figure of 10.1 per cent.
I make it perfectly clear that I am not speaking of people who are bedridden and I am not asking for jobs for people who are unable to do them. But every single person on the register has been classified by my hon. Friend's Department as capable of work. A proportion of these can work only in sheltered employment, and there are 9,000 of these unemployed seeking sheltered employment. But of the 655,000 registered disabled, 633,000 were classified—again by my right hon. Friend's Department—as capable of working in open competitive industry. So we are not talking about bedridden cripples; we are discussing men and women who are disabled but willing arid able to do a job of work but who are denied the opportunity. They cannot get jobs, despite the elaborate machinery which has been painstakingly built by this House over many years and which is designed to ensure that all em-
886
ployers with over 20 employees should employ a quota of 3 per cent. disabled.
What has gone wrong with the machinery? The House has elaborately built it but 10 per cent. of the disabled are unemployed. In the first place, I suggest that my right hon. Friend is committing a serious error of judgment in allowing too many firms to evade their quota of 3 per cent. disabled. No less than 53 per cent. of firms employing over 20 workers are failing to employ their quota. The figures are bad but the trend is even worse. In 1964 the proportion of employers not fulfilling their quota was 45.2 per cent.; in 1965 the figure had risen to 46 per cent.; in 1966 it was 48 per cent.; in 1967 it was 52 per cent., and in 1968 it was 53.7 per cent.
With all the good will in the world towards my right hon. Friend, I am bound to say that this trend is an indictment of her policies and a clear indication of her failure to ensure that employers employ their quota of disabled. I can understand that some employers are unable to find the necessary skills from among the disabled unemployed, but I cannot accept, and I do not believe that the House will agree, that 53 per cent. of employers—34,000 firms in all—are unable to take even one of the 55,000 disabled unemployed.
I therefore suggest that my hon. Friend should conduct an inquiry into the reasons why an increasing proportion of firms are not fulfilling their quota. I know that some firms have an enlightened attitude towards the disabled and that many go out of their way to accommodate them, and I pay my tribute to those firms. I have already acknowledged the fact that some firms require special skills which are not easily available from among the disabled unemployed. The Act has provided that some firms may employ less than their quota of 3 per cent., but only by a special permit from the Ministry.
But again I must criticise my hon. Friend's Department. It has been throwing permits around like confetti. In the year up to last June it issued permits to 21,000 firms at a time when there were 55,000 unemployed disabled. Could none of these firms employ any of the disabled? Is that the Secretary of State's case? If it is I would sooner she argued

887
it than I. If it is not, why has she allowed the permits to be issued? I hope that she would not seriously suggest that none of the 21,000 firms could fit in any of the disabled unemployed.
But a further 13,000 firms need special investigation. They are not employing their quota of disabled. They are not seeking permits from the Ministry. They are not, surely, all working with a static labour force, so if they are taking on undisabled people they are committing an offence and my right hon. Friend's Department is allowing them to get away with it. Perhaps my hon. Friend who will be replying to the debate could tell the House what the Department intends to do about it. Now the facts are known, I suggest that action should be taken.
Finding the facts about the disabled is a difficult business. Apart from a few dedicated organisations and individuals like Professor Townsend, Megan du Boisson and Mary Greaves, whose recent report I commend to my hon. Friend, there is a general indifference to the plight of the disabled unemployed.
Many employers are negligent but the trade unions cannot avoid their share of the responsibility. They are champions of the under-privileged and some officers try to help, but the general trade union attitude to the disabled is not characterised by marked enthusiasm.
Employers and unions have a responsibility, but tonight I ask my right hon. Friend to give a lead. Her main responsibility lies in implementing the Acts and ensuring that employers fulfil their obligations, but she can make a further contribution by improving the number of disablement resettlement officers and giving them a career structure of their own. Theirs is the crucial job of fitting the disabled into suitable employment. If their work is successful, the disabled unemployed can be integrated into suitable jobs where their disability is irrelevant, but, with an under-staffed service and a high rate of turnover, they work under enormous difficulties.
In a previous answer, my hon. Friend rejected my suggestion that there should be an experimental scheme in one region to increase the numbers of disablement resettlement officers, to ensure that they are full-time and to reduce their high
888
rate of turnover. In the light of the serious situation I have revealed I invite my hon. Friend to reconsider his answer and to adopt this suggestion. I am not asking for the moon, nor for charity, but simply for a change in the attitude of Government and industry to the disabled unemployed.
I am also asking for a change of Government policy on the lines I have outlined tonight. If there is to be a long hard struggle ahead to improve the prospects of the disabled unemployed, it will not be evaded, but I am looking forward to my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend displaying their usual understanding and warmth towards the unemployed and the disabled and I hope they will implement these changes so that the disabled are spared the additional scourge of unemployment.
11.5 p.m.
Mr. Gordon Campbell: I hope that the Under-Secretary will carefully consider what his hon. Friend has said, since the latter has made a very special study of the problems of the disabled and makes a point of bringing these matters to the attention of the House, for which the House is grateful.
Safety is, of course, of immense importance. But the differences in disability mean that some disabled, who can do some jobs perfectly safely, cannot do others. We should not exclude all disabled from all such jobs. With care, it is possible to fit certain jobs to certain types of disablement and they can be done efficiently.
I trust that the Government will encourage and help industry to find the right sort of jobs for particular categories of disabled.
11.6 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mr. E. Fernyhough): My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) has impressed the House with the forcible way in which he has stated his case and the vigour with which he has attacked my Ministry. Nevertheless, I am grateful to him for having raised this subject.
Next year is the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act—the legislative foundation of

889
my Department's services for the disabled—and it is fitting that at this time we should be looking, as my hon. Friend has, critically at the continuing relevance of the Act's provisions and at the effectiveness of our resettlement services. Against this background we must ask—as, indeed, my hon. Friend has asked to light—are the disabled getting their fair share of employment opportunities; and is the Department of Employment and Productivity doing all it can to facilitate this?
All our efforts at present are directed towards greater productivity; the tempo of work is greater, organisation more streamlined and industrial processes are continually susceptible to technological change. In this situation, we must ask ourselves. is the handicapped man or woman finding it increasingly difficult to fit in?
My hon. Friend is deeply concerned about their situation and he has failed to find reassurance in the available statistics which show that 10 per cent. of those registered as disabled are at present unemployed; and that more than half of those employers who have a statutory obligation to include 3 per cent. registered disabled persons among their total staffs are failing to meet that obligation. As my hon. Friend indicated, unemployment among the registered disabled has risen in the last two years, as indeed has unemployment among the general working population, and we all deplore that situation. However, the rate of increase in the numbers of disabled unemployed over the last year has happily lost its momentum. Nevertheles, the current figures must still cause us concern as they do my hon. Friend, and I do not want to minimise their significance.
It is interesting to compare the present situation with 1964, which was a time of high employment. The overall percentage of unemployed in 1964 was 1.5; for the disabled, it was 7.6. In 1968, unemployment was running at 2.4 per cent. For the disabled it was 10.1 per cent. That the proportional increase should have been lower among the registered disabled indicates that the quota system and the goodwill of employers have had some effect in ensuring that the disabled are not discriminated against in a period of economic difficulty.
890
Indeed, our special consideration of the effects of the Selective Employment Tax on the employment of the disabled has supported this view. But the fact remains, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that there are 66,249 registered disabled persons unemployed. In this situation why are so many employers failing to meet their quota obligation?
In placing on employers with 20 or more employees an obligation to employ a percentage of registered disabled persons among their total staffs, the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act recognised that employers must accept some responsibility for the disabled. When the Committee, under the chairmanship of Lord Piercy, reviewed the Act in 1956, it considered that the main value of the quota scheme was in providing a sound basis for publicising among employers and workers the industrial value of disabled persons. I cannot emphasise too strongly that there is goodwill among most employers towards the disabled and, by and large, they have learned the lesson that disabled workers can be good workers. The experience of our officers working in the field continually reaffirms this fact. Why, then, are so many short of the numbers they should employ?
Regulations made under the Act have fixed the standard percentage at 3, but the Act does not lay down that all employers within the scope of the scheme must employ that proportion. It is a standard which employers must try to achieve. In fact, the Act makes special provision for those who cannot reach their quota. It recognises what some who have discussed this question appear not to recognise sufficiently—that available people and vacant jobs do not necessarily match. This is clearly demonstrated in the general employment sphere, where large numbers of unfilled vacancies exist side by side with high unemployment registers. The Act accordingly provides for a system under which employers with less than their quota may recruit other than registered disabled persons provided they have a permit from my Department to do so. A condition of the issue of this permit is that no suitable disabled person is available for the job on offer.
Under the standard system, we have provided for estimated vacancies to be

891
covered by a standard permit current for a period up to six months. But, again, a condition in these circumstances is that vacancies as they arise must be notified to the employment exchange. By this means our officers are continually able to test the validity of the situation. In determining the suitability of disabled persons for particular jobs, our officers are enjoined to discuss with employers where necessary possible minor modifications to processes or procedures which will facilitate the disabled person's ability to do the work on offer. In so doing they can and do enlist the help of the Department's technical officers.
If we take all the facts, including the number of registered disabled persons unemployed, we know that an overall level of compliance of 3 per cent. is not obtainable. Some may argue from this that we have set our sights too high. Although 3 per cent. is a standard which many employers can and do achieve, its real significance is that it represents a threshold beyond which specific controls about the employment of the disabled begin to operate—for instance, the permit procedure which I have already described and the provisions of the Act about the discharge of a disabled person without reasonable cause.
It is perhaps worth noting that the overall level of compliance in the private sector of industry is at present 2.4 per cent. The Disabled Persons Register, which at present includes some 650,000 persons, represents approximately 2.6 per cent. of the insured population. As my hon. Friend has said, there is no absolute guarantee that those firms who are below quota and who have not been issued with a permit have not in fact taken on someone other than a disabled worker. To do so is an offence under the Act. We do what we can to ensure that such a situation does not arise. Our disablement resettlement officers visit firms below quota to check on the situation; we maintain a closer watch over firms known not to be co-operative; we scrutinise vacancies notified to the employment exchange to see whether they arise with under-quota firms; we make a sample check on the jobs which fit workers registered for employment at the exchange find for themselves to see
892
whether the firms involved are in fact under quota.
Registration as a disabled person is voluntary, and potentially suitable persons elect not to register for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the desire not to be categorised—an independence of spirit which I am sure my hon. Friend and all other hon. Members must respect. I am sure no one will want to change the voluntary system, but it does sometimes result in employers who are successfully employing substantially handicapped persons not fulfilling their obligations under the Act because only registered disabled persons count towards quota. The more secure the employment—and this is something the Act seeks to promote—the less some people are inclined to register. This fact is, of course, not without its effect on the calculated rate of disabled unemployment, since, although not all potentially eligible disabled persons in employment in fact register, the majority do so when they become unemployed. I mention this not because I refuse to accept that there is no room for improvement in the situation—I know that there is—but to demonstrate that many factors have to be taken into account in assessing it.
The quota provisions and the administrative procedures through which they are enforced, are regularly reviewed by the National Advisory Council on the Employment of the Disabled, which advises the Secretary of State on resettlement questions. The Council has never recommended a departure from the quota system nor from the concept of voluntary registration.
I should now like to say a word about disablement resettlement officers, whom my hon. Friend mentioned. I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly that these officers should be carefully selected and trained, that they should be kept on the job as long as possible, and that they should all be full-time officers. In answer I say, we do select them carefully; we give them special training; we try to keep them on the job for five years, but to keep staff in the job for too long is not in my view necessarily advantageous since the work requires initiative and imagination, and in their exacting task disablement resettlement officers can run out of steam.

893
I accept that the full-time officer operating on an area basis is likely to be the most effective way of organising the service. We hope to achieve this when staffing resources permit this to be done; at present they do not, so we support those officers who spend only part of their time on resettlement duties with group disablement resettlement officers who have had considerable experience in dealing with the disabled.
My hon. Friend repeated tonight a request he made in a Parliamentary Question last week, that we should establish an experimental scheme in one of our regions to assess the improvement in the services of disablement resettlement officers which might be obtained by increasing their numbers, by ensuring that they are full-time officers, by reconsidering their methods of selection and grading, and by reducing their high rate of turnover. We have, I might say, been actively considering these matters for some time, but my inclination was at first that an experiment at this time was not opportune. I will, however, have another look at this matter.
I think it is sometimes forgotten how many disabled persons we do in fact place in ordinary employment. Since the passing of the Act, well over 2 million jobs have been found through the agency of m0y Department; in the last 12 months alone 71,000 jobs have been found. But it would be foolish to suggest that satis-
894
factory resettlement of the disabled is an easy matter. The pattern of industry changes. While mechanisation lightens the physical task or work, the introduction of continuous process and assembly lines can well speed up the work process and make adherence to time schedules of greater significance. This can react against some of the disabled and the elderly.
We have therefore to be on the alert for new developments in industry, and our officers working in the field are always looking for possible openings for the disabled. We have it in mind to mount a special exercise on this theme in one region.
It only remains in the minute I have left to say to my hon. Friend once again how grateful I am to him for raising this subject. I appreciate how deeply he feels about it. I hope he will believe me when I say that I share his concern, because no family has been more the victims of this problem than my immediate family. I hope that he will continue to peg away. He will not find me resistant, but in criticising the Ministry because he feels that we have still a long way to go I hope he will not forget that already we have come a very long way in the post-war years.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chester.

BAN ON ARMS TO SOUTH AFRICA
3.6 p.m.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what their intentions are with regard to the maintenance of the ban on the export of arms to South Africa having regard—

(1) to the importance to Britain of the defence of the Cape shipping route;

(2) to the vital necessity of doing everything possible to help the export drive.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, when Her Majesty's Government considered their policy on the supply of arms to South Africa they took into account all the economic, defence and political issues involved, and the two points detailed in the Question formed part of those considerations.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord, may I take it from the Answer that it is not the intention of the Government to give any consideration to the lifting of the ban on the export of arms for the external defence of the Cape shipping route? Is that the position?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware—and I hope he will refresh his memory on the Question and Answer in February—the Government have imposed this embargo following the resolution of the United
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Nations. Their position is to-day what it was in February.
THE EARL, OF SELKIRK: My Lords, does the noble Lord not find it useful in maintaining the Beira patrol to use Simonstown?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, Simonstown is a very important naval facility which we very much appreciate—and so too, I believe, does South Africa.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, may I ask whether it is Government policy to refute or refuse all responsibility now for the defence of the Cape route, so far as the Royal Navy is concerned?
LORD SHEPHERD: No, my Lords, we have a responsibility, and certainly the Cape route is of prime importance to us. But our policy in regard to South Africa remains as has been stated in the past.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, reverting to the United Nations resolution, may I ask whether the noble Lord remembers that when that resolution was passed through the United Nations it was made quite clear by Her Majesty's Government that it would not be interpreted as applying to the exports of arms for the external defence of South Africa? Therefore that resolution is no excuse for maintaining this disastrous ban.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lord, the noble Lord has put his point very cleverly in the form of a question. If the noble Lord will look at the United Nations resolution he will see that it calls for an embargo on a whole series of weapons and ammunition; and with this we comply.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, apropos this unrequited benefit from the Cape of Good Hope route, will the noble Lord take note of a lesson to be learned from a couplet in an old soldiers' song which I shall quote? The song is about naughty daughter and the lines are:
"But her poor misguided parents in the village where they live,
Though they drink the wine she sends them, yet they never will forgive."
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord might later give me the reference to that poem. I am sure

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that there may be other words that I might usefully quote.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: I will sing it to the noble Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, may we hope that this decision about the coastal defence of South Africa is not a permanent one? There are two quite different problems here, as I know the noble Lord realises. One is whether the arms could be used within the borders of South Africa and the other is the coastal defence. I appreciate that the United Nations' resolution applied to both; but for all of us here they are two different problems, and I hope they are so for Her Majesty's Government also. Could we have an assurance that the door is not utterly closed over coastal defence?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Marquess has been long enough in politics, and I perhaps sufficiently long, to know that the door is never closed.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, may I ask whether the Government are aware of the feelings of disquiet felt by masters of ships trading to the Far East and the Cape at the future lack of protection in these waters?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I well understand the views of ship masters, particularly in the lightly of comments made by political leaders in this country; but the risks that shipping is likely to face would not, I believe, be eased in any way by a change of our policy.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, can the noble Lords tell me how a guided missile or a frigate can be used to put down a hypothetical African riot?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I hope that the noble Viscount will look at the answers that I have given this afternoon and also at the answers that my noble friend Lord Chalfont gave last February. What we are seeking to do is to implement the United Nations' resolution which many other countries have complied with.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I ask to what extent the French Government have gained from the point of view
1300
of prestige and influence, and economically, in view of the supply of technicians and advisory personnel in Simonstown and the supply of military equipment? What have they gained arising out of the Government's policy?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will be quite honest. I sought to prepare myself for this House's normally wide-ranging supplementary questions but I am afraid that I have not got those facts. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Question I will seek to answer it.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the noble Lord said just now that a great many other countries had complied with the United Nations resolution. Would he not care to add that all those who have complied with it had been those who did not want to send arms to South Africa, anyway; whereas those who did have cut us out?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I refresh the noble Earl's memory? The United States complies with the resolution.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, having made the Simonstown Agreement with Field Marshal Lord Alexander, may I ask the noble Lord what is the total amount that we have lost in orders by carrying out this so-called resolution?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, here again it is difficult to give an assessment. Clearly, the question of arms supplies is one of the most competitive fields of industry and commerce. It must depend very much on what the South Africans wish to be supplied with, those countries who are willing to tender and, in the end, what South Africa herself decides to buy.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the defence of shipping forced to use the Cape route in the event of war?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, here again we have a hypothetical question. Where is there going to be a war around the South African coast that would threaten our shipping? If it were a war on a much larger scale, then it would not be the British or even the South Africans standing alone—at least I hope not—but some security organisation with the United States.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he thinks that the United Nations could provide the necessary protection for this?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, may I suggest, as we have another Question following this which is likely to give rise to at least as many supplementary questions, that we might move on to that one? I do not like to come between two ex-Leaders of this House, but we have really had our quota; we have had eight minutes on this Question.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, it is all very well to ride roughshod over us like that, but may I put this supplementary question? Is it not a fact that the South African Government put on record and delivered a list of exactly what were the arms and equipment which they desired to buy from us?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I understand that there was no specific shopping list. There was a rough indication some many months ago, but since then, and in view of our attitude, we have had no approaches by the South African Government.

NIGERIA: TRANSPORT OF RELIEF SUPPLIES
3.15 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the forthcoming cessation of supplies to Nigeria and Biafra by the Red Cross, due to transport difficulties, they will now make available a suitable number of R.A.F. Andover aircraft to fill the gap.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Churches Committee have been sending supplies into Biafra from Fernando Po and Sao Tome respectively at a rate of 2,000 tons or more a month each. The International Red Cross has not asked us for additional aircraft for the airlift into Biafra. In general I understand that the International Committee
1302
have enough supplies: their need is for funds to finance the heavy cost of transport and distribution, and this was one reason why we wished to see the opening of land corridors of mercy, which would be a more efficient and a cheaper way of getting supplies into the rebel area. But, my Lords, as you know, Colonel Ojukwu has consistently refused this method of relief supplies.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Would not one method of financing the transport of the supplies, which is apparently presenting a difficulty to the mercy organisations, be the supply by Her Majesty's Government of the aircraft mentioned in the Question?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, even if you use Service aircraft there is still a cost account in it and this clearly has to be borne in mind.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I accept that point, but may I ask whether it is not the case that the cost to Her Majesty's Government of supplying Andover aircraft is largely made up of fixed costs which the Government have to meet anyway? Can they not therefore merely contribute the variable costs, or ask for a contribution to the variable costs only from these mercy organisations?
LORD SHEPHERD: No, my Lords; I would not accept that. Clearly, Service aircraft have a standing cost, but there are also the running charges if the aircraft are being used. The essence of this problem in Biafra is opening these land corridors so that vehicles can be used efficiently and cheaply. I think it must be a matter of concern to all those who are most willingly giving contributions to the relief organisation that so much is being spent in the cost of operation by air and perhaps relatively so little in terms of food.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me what is going to happen in two or three weeks' time when the relief organisations tell us that they can no longer afford any more transport?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, as my noble friend knows—or at least I hope she knows—a big campaign has been launched by the National Disasters Emergency Committee in this country and

1303
other organisations throughout the world, to raise money to help the International Committee, and the British Government, with other Governments, are being approached by that body. We shall be giving very careful and very sympathetic attention to that appeal when it arrives.
BARONESS HYLTON-FOSTER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in other countries it is often the usual practice for the Government to help the Red Cross in this way by providing transport?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I was answering a question on grounds of cost. I have not said that the British Government would not supply Service aircraft if both sides agreed to it and the circumstances were acceptable to us. This always has been our policy. It is not a rejection of the use of Service aircraft; it is the circumstances which now exist, and these we have to take into account.

FUTURE BUSINESS: ECONOMIC DEBATE
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Winterbottom will be repeating a Statement on the Territoral Army Volunteer Reserve.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, the Captain of the Gentlemen at Arms, whether he is in a position to make a statement to the House about contemplated arrangements for an economic debate in the near future?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. As he and the House will know, there is a Bill now before the other place, the Customs (Imports Deposits) Bill, which will come before your Lordships' House. On the assumption that we receive this Bill by next Thursday, December 5, I hope, with arrangements through the usual channels, that it will be possible to take the Bill, a Supply Bill, through all stages on that day. In that case I hope that it will be for the convenience of your Lordships' House if we have a full economic debate on the Second Reading of this Bill.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his answer. Those arrangements will be readily accepted by this side of the House.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
3.20 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LORD HUGHES): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Preparation of structure plans]:
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: I wonder whether I may raise some points on this clause, which is one of the major clauses of the Bill. The general idea of a structure plan was outlined in the White Paper on Town and Country Planning which was presented in June, 1967. The passage on development plans begins, in paragraph 15, with these words:
"The present development plans are failing to meet current needs. Part of the trouble is that the areas they cover are too small; the plan-making process is based upon local government boundaries which divide areas with competing and complementary needs and resources and, indeed, create planning problems by artificially separating town from country at the point where pressure for change is greatest."
Under the Bill, the planning authorities remain the counties and large burghs, and this gives rise to several questions. First of all, it makes it difficult for us to discuss this clause without reference to what is likely to happen in the future, because obviously the clause is drafted with a view to the presentation of structure plans in the future. The clause begins:
"The local planning authority shall, within such period from the commencement of this section within their district as the Secretary of State may direct, prepare and send the Secretary of State a report of their survey under section 1 …"
That implies that the Secretary of State may prescribe different times for different

1305
districts. It would be useful to know what the noble Lord thinks will be the time schedule in regard to the preparation of structure plans under the new dispensation.
Secondly, it seems fairly clear that the clause looks forward to new arrangements which are likely to be proposed by the Royal Commission. I think that one can safely deduce from the White Paper that the local planning authorities in future are likely to be larger than they have been in the past and also that the distinction between landward areas and large burghs might to a considerable extent be removed. I do not think that one can read Clause 2 in any other way. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to confirm that this is what we are likely to have.
Even if in certain cases the Royal Commission were not to recommend larger areas, it would be possible for the Secretary of State—and it is his intention—to bring together local planning authorities into groups. If that is so, we can turn to the discussion of what is meant by regions. Subsection (3) of the clause says:

The structure plan for any district shall be a written statement—

(a) formulating the local planning authority's policy and general proposals in respect of the development and other use of land in that district …

(b) stating the relationship of those proposals to general proposals for the development and other use of land in neighbouring districts which may be expected to affect that district; and

And, in the following subsection, it is stated that the plan
"…shall have regard—
(a) to current policies with respect to the economic planning and development of the region as a whole; …"
I do not think that there has been any legal definition of the word "region", and so far as I can see there is no definition of the word in this Bill. Of course, we have had the Scottish White Paper and regional studies of various kinds, of the North-East, the Borders, Tayside, the Lothians and the Moray Firth, some of which have already been published, but it is still difficult to see exactly what is meant by
"… current policies with respect to the economic planning and development of the region as a whole."
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What is to be the status of these regional surveys? Have the structure plans to conform to these surveys? Are they to be approved in any particular form by the Secretary of State? Are there to be any opportunities of making observations on them and appealing against certain provisions in them? Are they to be fully debated in Parliament? We want to see exactly what the local planning authorities are being asked to have regard to here and how they are to prepare their structure plans.
Then, with regard to co-ordinating with other regions, I think we get into a rather curious situation. I wonder what is meant by "general proposals". If they are the proposals in the structure plan, where do we start? If region A has to have regard to the general proposals in the structure plan of region B, then plainly region B's plan must come out first; but region B in turn has to have regard to the general proposals in region A's plan. I hope that this point has been fully thought out. I am sure that it has, and I hope that the noble Lord will be able to tell us about it. It is important that we should know exactly what are the general proposals in question, who formulated them, where they emanate from, how they were discussed and arrived at anti what degree of consultation and co-operation is to be expected between local planning authorities in arriving at their structure plans. Is it intended, for example, that there should be regional consultations presided over by the Secretary of State for Scotland? How are we going to start on all this? I hope the noble Lord will be able to give us some idea.
One would like to know whether general proposals are going to be in fact general—for example, such proposals as the transportation studies which have been done for Greater Edinburgh and Greater Glasgow, the population study for Grangemouth and Falkirk or the planning that is going on towards (as they always say) West Central Scotland urban development. One fully understands that all these things are going on, but it is difficult to see how they are going to be crystallised or how they can provide adequate guidance to the local planning authorities in the preparation of their structure plans. I thought it right to raise this matter because unless we

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can get in mind the way in which plans are to be formed and worked out, and the point at which they should start, I do not think the idea of the structure plan will be of much use, and it will not be much of an improvement on what we have already.
3.30 p.m.
LORD HUGHES: As the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said, it is generally admitted that the existing districts of local authorities which are within the boundaries of counties of cities and large burghs are in many cases inappropriate for the purposes of good planning. But we have already, to a certain extent, got over some of the worst of these difficulties, because the local planning authorities themselves recognise the defects of the system under which they have had to work. They have therefore sought to eliminate some of these difficulties by getting together of their own free will. We have recently had examples of the growing extent to which this is taking place, for instance, in West Central Scotland. The counties of Ayr, Lanark, Renfrew and Dunbarton have all got together with the burghs within the county boundary to work out common arrangements, not all on the same purpose but on things where they have a common planning interest or where their interests impinge on each other's. That is working very well. No-one can compel them to do this, and no-one has had to compel them. Forces of circumstance made them realise that they all had something to gain from doing this sort of thing.
We are now approaching the point where there is a possibility of such a working party from two counties. I do not wish to be pressed to name them, because while we are hopeful that it will be set up, perhaps the one way of ensuring that it will not is if it is thought that pressure is being put upon them to do it. The new planning machinery can help to make this co-operation more effective and make it more likely that more authorities will see right away the advantages to themselves of this voluntary co-operation. I should at this point emphasise the fact that the regional plans which would emerge from this co-operation are non-statutory. The only statutory plan is the structure plan. In the
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same way, the use of the word "region", to which the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, referred, has no legal definition in the Bill. I do not want to predict whether "region will have any statutory definition in the future as a result of anything that may come out of the Wheatley Commission, but at the moment "a region" means merely the territory of a number of authorities. The new system will be brought into force gradually area by area—and again "area" has not any specific meaning—and will not be applied in advance of local government reorganisation in any areas where the Secretary of State does not regard the circumstances as ripe for it. But the provisions of the Bill will be applicable and appropriate to the reorganised forms of local government, whatever shape they may take in detail. There is no reason to foresee any need for major new planning legislation when local government reorganisation takes place.
The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, spoke also about the general plans of local planning authorities, and foresaw the difficulty that, with planning authority A looking to its structure plan, and planning authority B looking to its structure plan, one appeared to be in vicious circle, as each of them had to start first in order for the other to get anywhere, and that made it impossible for the one who started to get anywhere. It will not work in that way. What is envisaged is that authorities will have an idea of what they want to do, but it must be obvious to them, before setting it down in detail, that it cannot be worked satisfactorily in isolation from their neighbours. Having a general idea of where they are going, they should first of all have discussions in general terms with their neighbours so that it is more likely that the structure plan which each will in due course evolve is likely to fit in to the maximum extent with those which their neighbours will bring forward, with the result that we shall have good overall planning over the whole area. Therefore we use the word "general" simply from the point of view that the sooner people get together to start discussing in detail what they are going to do, the more likely it is that they will not waste time on details which will be a source of argument, rather than a source of agreement, among themselves.

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I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who, with his usual courtesy, gave me notice that he intended to put these questions to me. I say that partly in case your Lordships may think I have rather unusually got all the details of this subject at my fingertips. I have them to the extent to which I had notice from the noble Lord, and I may say that his having done this has enabled me to put my reply in a more concise form than I should have done if I had had to waffle about a bit.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, for what he has said. For my part, I would say that the conception of this kind of prestructure co-operation between local authorities is highly desirable. I take it that this can work across the boundaries of any regions that may exist. It will be a question not only of getting local plannning authorities together within a region, but it can cross the boundaries, as well. This is all to the good.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Publicity in connection with preparation of structure plan]:
3.37 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE THE EARL OF DUNDEE moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 4, line 17, leave out ("in their opinion").
The noble Earl said: Clause 3 deals with publicity in connection with the preparation of structure plans. Subsection (1) says that a local authority are required to take such steps as will in their opinion secure adequate publicity. My Amendment proposes to leave out the words "in their opinion". The noble Lord may reply that the local authority are not likely to take such steps as will, in their opinion, not secure adequate publicity, or as will, contrary to their opinion, secure adequate publicity, but I think it goes a little further than that. Suppose that other people think the local authority are mistaken—they are not infallible, and they can only do what they think in their opinion is right—and want to appeal to a tribunal or to the Secretary of State against the steps which the local authority are taking, then as the clause stands the tribunal may be obliged to rule that since the local authority had
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taken steps which in their opinion were right, therefore, they had fulfilled their function; whereas if the words "in their opinion" are left out and the objector can prove that the local authority are mistaken, the tribunal will be in a position to give a contrary decision. That is really the whole point of this Amendment. I hope that the noble Lord will consider it favourably.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I should like to support this Amendment because too frequently we read in Acts similar words to "in their opinion"; for example, "with reasonableness". All such phrases and words tend to allow the Executive—in this case, the local authority—a very convenient route of escape if they make a mistake. I submit that we have far too much of this language in our modern law now. The phrase "in their opinion" is a very wide term. It is an absolute Godsend, of course, to barristers, to people such as my noble friend in front of me, who practise the law. I support most strongly this Amendment to leave out the words "in their opinion".
LORD HUGHES: I dislike to disillusion the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, in thinking that the Government are on the side of the barristers and that he is against them, but, in fact, if we accepted the Amendment it would indeed be a Godsend, not to barristers but perhaps to advocates, because it would mean that right up to the very last minute decisions of a local authority might be open to challenge in the courts simply because the omission of these words would leave the question open to be determined on the opinion of anybody. Only the courts could then decide whether or not the matter had been acted upon properly.
The next Amendment, to Clause 7, is of course inherently in the same category. Both of these clauses impose obligations on the local planning authority with respect to publicity and participation in the preparatory stages in the formulation of structure and local plans respectively. Those obligations require the authority to take steps which will in their opinion secure the obligations set out in the clauses. The effect of the Amendment would be to delete the words "in their opinion" and leave an unqualified obligation to undertake the

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required general action, which would inevitably be different in different areas and which could be tested only in the courts. That would be undesirable. The limits within which the local authority can act are subject to what the Secretary of State may lay down in regulations. But, subject to broad considerations (such as the period during which any notices must be displayed and the opportunity of inspecting documents), the local planning authority are the most competent judges of what publicity will produce adequate results.
Moreover, under Clause 3(3) and Clause 7(3) the actions of the local planning authority have to be reported to the Secretary of State, who has the power to withhold consideration of the structure plan and return it to the planning authority with directions to take further steps, or to direct the authority not to take any further steps for the adoption of a local plan, without taking further specified action. It is highly undesirable that plans should be at the risk of invalidation at the last moment as a result of challenge in the courts on the ground that publicity given to things proposed to be put in the plan was not adequate. If there are inadequacies in publicity they should be corrected at a much earlier stage—at any rate before the formal public inquiry is held.
The essential point here is that, as the Bill stands, the local planning authority will not be the final arbiter as to what steps are adequate. The words "in their opinion" do not in any way prevent the Secretary of State from imposing firm obligations by way of regulations under Clause 13(1)(b); and in addition general advice, based on the Report of the Skeffington Committee on Public Participation in Planning. The combination of regulations, general guidance and the Secretary of State's powers under Clauses 3(4) and 7(4) should ensure that full effect is given to the intention that there shall be adequate publicity and participation.
I hope that, by drawing attention to these other parts of the Bill, I have assured the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, that the Government fully accept the point which he makes, that the local authority will not just ride roughshod over what is reasonable and that there
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are sufficient safeguards to make it quite certain that what he seeks to do by eliminating these words will be carried out in a way which does not run the risk that the matter might be left in the melting pot with the possibility of court action right up to the last possible moment. For these reasons, I cannot accept the Amendment, but I hope that I have satisfied the noble Earl that I am in agreement with him in principle.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful for that explanation. I am glad to hear the noble Lord say that the local authority would not be the final arbiter. Could he tell us this? He said that if there are inadequacies in the steps which are taken they should be dealt with at a much earlier stage. What would be this earlier stage? Who would be consulted and who would be likely to protest against the steps which were being taken?
LORD HUGHES: Objections might arise either locally, from people who are interested, or from the Scottish Development Department, who, through being aware of what was being done, might advise the local authority," We do not think you are doing enough in this direction. You should do this, that, or the next thing".
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for the trouble he has taken to meet the points which I have raised. I think that in the circumstances your Lordships will wish me to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
3.47 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask the noble Lord a question of which I have given him previous notice? The same point arises also on Clause 7. Clause 3(2) provides:
"the local planning authority shall make copies of the plan … available for inspection at their office and at such other places as may be prescribed; and each copy shall be accompanied by a statement of the time within which objections to the plan may be made to the Secretary of State".
I seem to remember that it has generally been the practice in legislating about main plans to lay a duty upon the local authority to publish the fact that the plans are available. They are required

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to give notice and to "publish in one or more journals circulating within the area" (I think those are the words usually used) the fact that the plans are available, and saying where they can be inspected. I am well aware that local authorities generally may be expected to do this without being told to do so, but it is curious that a practice which seems to have gone on for quite a long time is being dropped. I should have thought it was a desirable thing for the public, especially if there is to be a time limit within which objections may be made, that as soon as the copies are made available this should be made known publicly and published in the papers. I quite understand that there is likely to be comment upon the plan in local papers, and they at any rate will be notified right away. But the time element may be important here, so the sooner the public know that the plans are available for inspection, the better. I wonder whether the noble Lord can enlighten me on this point.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said that he has already given notice that he wanted to raise this point. This is a very reasonable thing to do because the matter is being raised, not for the purpose of embarrassing Her Majesty's Government or myself, but in order to obtain information. As a result of his giving notice, I hope I shall be able to give the noble Lord all the information he seeks.
It is correct that the requirements as to publicity for planning proposals under the new Bill will be much greater in scope than the present requirements, which already include an obligation to advertise the availability of plans for inspection. The reason for not expressing this requirement in Statute is that it is only a part—and under what we hope will take place not necessarily by any means the most important part—of the whole scheme of arrangements for fostering and facilitating public participation in the planning process at its formative stages which the Government intend to make in the light of, among other things, the recommendations of the Skeffington Committee. To set down in the Bill one particular obligation of this kind would be to give a disproportionate prominence to it, perhaps at the expense of other arrangements. The
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noble Lord will appreciate that this is being put in slightly more lay terms than the usual ones of "without prejudice to the generality', and so on.
The Bill sets out the general requirements which can and will in due course be filled out, partly no doubt by regulations and partly in the form of administrative guidance. Clauses 3 and 7, for example, require the planning authority among other things to publicise their planning survey, to secure that persons who may desire to make representations know that they are entitled to do so and are given an adequate opportunity to do so; to make copies of their plans available for inspection and, above all, to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have performed the foregoing duties satisfactorily. If the Secretary of State is not so satisfied he can return a structure plan or direct that no further steps should be taken with a local plan, adding specific instructions on what more they have to do in the way of publicity. This in itself would practically ensure that the deposit of plans for inspection would have to be publicised. In addition, however, the Secretary of State has power under Clause 13(1) to make regulations providing for publicity or notice to be given about a wide variety of matters, including proposals to include matters in plans and procedural steps. These powers would extend to requiring notice to be given of the availability of plans for inspection.
An assurance can therefore be given—and I readily give it—that there is ample provision in the Bill for ensuring that the public are made aware of their right to inspect plans at appropriate stages in the planning process, as well as their rights in other respects to participate actively in the formation of plans. It may well be that in the early stages of the new procedure the Secretary of State may have to send back structure plans, or he may have to say, "Do not proceed any further with a local plan", because the local authorities are not in fact publicising it as widely as he would want. I would not expect that any local authority accustomed to having to advertise in two or more papers would suddenly stop doing it, but it may well be that some of them do not give much thought beyond that, and we would not want that. But I am quite satisfied that

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after a fairly short period of time all planning authorities will know the extent to which they have to go beyond what they have done hitherto in order to accomplish the wide degree of local knowledge and participation which we are now seeking to bring into planning procedures.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that explanation, but I would again lay stress on the fact that the time factor may be important because of the time within which objections to the plan have to be laid down. It is important that everybody should know at the earliest possible moment when the plan is laid, and it is from the date when publicity is given to the laying of the plan that the time for making objections should run. I hope the noble Lord will look at this point again. I quite understand what he has said, but the mere fact that there has been previous consultation and that people know much more about what is likely to be in the plans does not obviate the necessity to let people know when the plan is laid so as to give them the longest possible period of time in which to make objections.
LORD HUGHES: I shall certainly be happy to look at this particular aspect of the time factor and perhaps it would be appropriate for me to send a note on the subject to the noble Lord.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Publicity for preparation of local plans]:
3.56 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 8, line 30, after ("time") insert ("(being not less than two months)")
The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to ensure that the time within which objections to a local plan may be made should not be less than two months from the time when copies of the local plan are first made available for inspection. It is obvious that adequate time has to be given for individuals to consult their legal advisers,
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for local groups to consult together and for objections to be lodged. In the case of a local authority's plan for a substantial part of a district I do not think two months is excessive and I hope that the Government will accept at least the principle of the Amendment.
There is a difficulty which I readily recognise, which is that Clause 10 applies the same procedure to alterations to a local plan as to the plan itself where such alterations are made on the initiative of the local planning authority or at the instance of the Secretary of State. Where the alterations involve the replacement of the entire plan, much the same time for objections will be required, I should have thought, as for objections to the plan when it was first made. I am not sure whether two months would be necessary in the case of comparatively minor alterations, although one has to remember that they can upset the lives and interests of people very much indeed—particular people, admittedly, but nevertheless people—and on the whole I feel that two months should be the minimum, unless the noble Lord can convince me to the contrary.
Even if the noble Lord can so convince me, I suggest that in the case of minor amendments the right course would be not to leave the time for objections entirely to the discretion of the local planning authority, as seems to be the case at present, but to provide in the Bill for the Secretary of State to allow a shorter period than two months in appropriate cases of alterations to a plan.
I hope that the noble Lord will agree that it is wise to lay down a minimum time for objections, if only because the shorter the time which is allowed for objections the more objections there are likely to be. If the time is too short persons affected by the plan are likely to object first and to think later, and I suggest that it is desirable to lay down a minimum time in order to enable them to consider whether their interests are affected. In that way I believe there will be fewer objections. I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: I am in agreement with much of what the noble Lord has said. My only objection to the Amendment is that it would impose a rigidity which the noble Lord himself was fair enough to recognise could be undesirable

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in some circumstances. Local plans will be of many different kinds. Some indeed may well approximate to the full scale of an existing development plan; for example, setting out proposals for land use throughout the whole of the district of the local planning authority in complete detail. Some will cover only part of the district, and some will concern themselves only with perhaps a single aspect of the planning. There are circumstances where obviously two months would not be too long a period for the more elaborate case, though I would point out at the present time the period is six weeks in all cases and this has not given rise to any complaint other than the fact that things take too long.
One of the difficulties about these procedures is that when we attempt to fix a period it must inevitably be fixed at the longest time so that no one is open to injustice. The result is that you have a dreadful waste of time in many cases. I have been looking time and time again at the procedures in connection with getting new road works under operation, and one of the annoying things is that the statutory procedures take longer than it takes the contractor to do the actual job. In some cases this arises because of the need to protect people's rights by prescribing periods and then these arc multiplied perhaps two or three times in the course of the Bill concerned. Sometimes every minute is necessary if the thing is hotly contested, but there are other cases where it is nothing other than a sheer waste of time and people are sitting doing nothing just waiting for the expiry of the period laid down.
In this case we do not think that it is necessary to have rigidity of this kind because we have the safeguards elsewhere in the Bill. The object first of all must be to give objectors or people wishing to make representations—not necessarily the same thing as objections—a sufficient opportunity for making those representations. Clause 7(1)(b) already requires the local planning authorities to take steps to secure that
"persons who may be expected to desire an opportunity of making representations"
are made aware that they are entitled to an opportunity of doing so and are given adequate time in which to do it. But Clause 7(4) empowers the Secretary of State to direct the planning authority
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not to take any further steps for the adoption of the plan if he is not satisfied that the appropriate steps have been taken under Clause 7(1).
I want to make it quite clear that in the exercise of his powers under Clause 7(4) one of the things which the Secretary of State will look at is the time which has been allowed for objections to be made in the particular case. If the local authority have in fact allowed two weeks and the Secretary of State thinks that this is merely going to make more trouble than would be the case if a more reasonable period of, say, six weeks were allowed, then he will so tell the local authority. We therefore hope that as a result of Clause 7(1) and 7(4) we shall have four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, or in some exceptional cases even longer if this should prove to he desirable.
We hope, therefore, by means of this flexibility to safeguard the rights of any individual, and I can assure the noble Lord that if we are going to err in the Scottish Development Department in this direction we will always err on the side of giving too much time rather than too little. But we are able to safeguard the position. We must not waste time by specifying a standard lengthy period when it is obviously net necessary. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will accept that Clause 7(4) combined with Clause 7(1) gives the Secretary of State an opportunity of arriving at the same conclusion its he would wish, to give full time lo people to pursue their interests without necessarily applying it in all cases where, as he himself so generously said in his remarks, it is unnecessary. I therefore invite him to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply, but what worries me a little is that he seems to be confusing subsections (1) and (2). Subsection (I) talks about what a local planning authority are to do when they propose to prepare a local plan and the publicity they have to give at that stage. Of course, it is a very good idea that they should have this publicity given to their intentions and that opportunities should be giver for representations to be made at that stage. But my Amendment has nothing to do with that at all. My Amendment deals with the stage when the local authority have prepared the local plan under subsection (2). This is related to the time

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within which objections may be made to the authority and, if necessary, an appeal to the Secretary of State. This is the important period, as I understand it.
I think it might be desirable for the noble Lord to look at this matter again to see whether, especially in regard to larger plans and the more important plans, a longer period may be desirable. But, of course, the period within which an appeal has to be made cannot easily he prejudged by the local authority themselves because they cannot know the individual circumstances of the people. The plan may be published just at the moment when somebody is going on a business trip for a couple of months to promote exports or something of that kind. A fairly generous latitude of time is required, simply because the local authority cannot know what the individual needs of the public are. It seems to me that the practice that has been adopted in the past of specifying the period within which this has to be done is preferable to leaving it entirely open to the discretion of the local authority, subject, as the noble Lord says, to what the Secretary of State has to say. It scams to me that a period of time within which objections to the local plan should he made should be well known, otherwise mistakes will be made in different cases. I think that uniformity in this matter is a good thing, otherwise you will have trip-ups. I commend this to the noble Lord and hope that he will look at it.
LORD HUGHES: While the noble Lord was speaking I have read Clause 7(1) and (2) and I remain satisfied that the wording of subsection (4) will give adequate protection to a person who wishes to make representations or wishes to object. It would be wrong for me to refuse to look at the matter again, although I am quite convinced that if I deal with this matter again, either in correspondence or at a further stage, the point of view I express will be exactly the same. The powers in Clause 7(4) have been designed to make certain that we can give the maximum publicity and yet enable the Secretary of State to intervene, certainly in the earlier stages, simply because the local authorities are not going as far as the Secretary of State
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would like in making it possible for people to participate—and "participate" must of course include adequate time for them to object if they think their interests are being adversely affected. If we go back to this business of setting statutory limits, we shall not in fact be getting the maximum benefit for everybody concerned from this more flexible concept of planning legislation that we are seeking to bring about. It is obviously right that everybody should have adequate time in which to protect his own interests, and I submit that this provision makes it possible for anybody to be given that adequate time without tying it in every case to the maximum, which would be desirable only in some of the cases.
In these circumstances, I ask the noble Lord not to press this Amendment. Certainly I will look at it. I will read carefully in the Report of to-day's proceedings what the noble Lord has said, and if there is anything further that I can say to assure him or convince him, then again I will do so by letter so that if he remains unconvinced he can come back with the matter at a subsequent stage.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I certainly do not intend to ask my noble friends to join me in pressing this Amendment today. But I think that when the noble Lord comes to look at it again he will find that he is a little off the mark, and that subsection (4) relates entirely to subsection (1), the preparation of the plan to be submitted to the Secretary of State, and has nothing whatsoever to do with subsection (2), which is the publication of the plan to the public at large, as well as sending a copy to the Secretary of State, who then has to see whether sufficient publicity has been given before the plan has been prepared. It is nothing to do with the time elapsing afterwards. However, if the noble Lord will have another look at this point perhaps we can return to it later. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 7 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I have not given notice to the noble Lord the Minister that I intended to raise a particular point here. The reason for that is

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that I felt the answer would be so simple, so far as he was concerned, that there was no need to do so. But I would ask the noble Lord why the provisions in respect of the publicity for preparation of local plans, inquiries with respect to local plans, the adaption and approval of local plans and the alteration of local plans should be different from those which are laid down and to apply to structure plans, as is set forth in Clauses 3, 4 and 5. It seems to me that to the individual citizen the local plan may be of more importance than the structure plan, and therefore the measures to protect the rights of the individual should be no less stringent than those which apply to the structure plan.
I do not know that they are less stringent. From my reading of Clauses 7, 8, 9 and 10 they appear to have equal effect, though arrived at by a somewhat different route. But if I am correct, I would ask again, why should not the same procedures apply to each of these two types of plan? Why should not Clause 7 merely state that the provisions of Clauses 3, 4 and 5 in respect of publicity, approval and alterations of the structure plan apply equally to local plans? Certainly it would make for a greater amount of simplicity, and it would have prevented my spending a considerable amount of time in reading these clauses.
But my chief anxiety is that in both cases there should be a right of appeal to the Secretary of State, and that in fact he should be the final arbiter. That seems to me to he provided for without doubt with regard to the structure plans. I believe it also applies to the local plans, but I would ask the noble Lord whether he can definitely assure me that that is the case. I have doubts cast upon it merely by the wording of Clause 9(4)(b). It may be irrelevant, but it seems to me to have some relevance to the question I am asking.
LORD HUGHES: I believe the House is awaiting a Statement. If we could now resume the House that would give me a little time to look at Clause 9(4)(b).
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): I think I must put the Question because I have put it once already and I should collect the voices.
Clause 7 agreed to.
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: In order that we may hear the Statement by my noble friend Lord Winterbottom I beg to move that this House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, House resumed.

ARMY RESERVES
4.15 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, with permission of the House, I will now repeat a Statement which has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence for Administration. It is as follows:
"The Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy of last July explained that we were reviewing the Army Reserves. The review has been virtually completed and I can now inform the House of our main conclusion.
"There will be a relatively small increase of some 2,000 in the establishment of TAVR II, mainly for logistic support in our increased NATO contribution.
"We have decided to cease recruiting 'Ever-Readies'—the Special Army Volunteer Reserve. The 'Ever-Readies' were not well recruited and in any case we consider that the tasks for which they were designed can now be better carried out by Regulars.
"I shall at a later date be making a Statement about the future of the Army General Reserve. This is a pool of about 170,000 National Servicemen, of whom some 15,000 are currently required on mobilisation. We plan to meet this requirement from other sources as soon as we possibly can. The Regular Reserve will be growing in size over the next few years and this will help, but we shall also have to place greater reliance on the Volunteer Reserve. To this end we are increasing the establishment of individual volunteers in TAVR II by a further 3,000.
"The disbandment of TAVR III (the Territorials) was announced on January 16 this year as part of the process of putting Civil Defence on to

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a care and maintenance basis. One of the objects of our review was to employ the assets of TAVR III to make good the manning shortfall in TAVR II. We intend to give every encouragement to Territorials to join the TAVR II, and we hope that many of them will do so.
"But the influx of Territorials we hope for will be a one-time bonus. We have decided that two permanent changes are necessary.
"First, we intend to draw on the recruiting potential of a much wider area by transferring about 100 of the training centres of the Territorials to TAVR II.
"Secondly, experience has shown that the amount of full-time training currently required of members of TAVR II with its extensive demands on the spare time of the volunteer has a discouraging effect on the retention of trained men. We have decided to allow a limited number of trained men to undertake, with the agreement of their commanding officers, a rather less onerous training obligation. By thus improving the state of manning, we aim to improve the overall efficiency of Volunteer units.
"Finally, we intend to establish up to 100 cadres, each of about 8 officers. N.C.O.s and men, and each attached to a unit of TAVR II.
"These cadres will take some of the peace-time administrative work off the shoulders of the Officers and N.C.O.s of the TAVR II units, who will thereby be enabled to concentrate more on their military training. They will act as rear parties for those units on mobilisation. In addition, they will provide nuclei around which units could be formed when minor changes are made in the TAVR II order of battle; or if circumstances were to necessitate a sudden expansion of Reserves; or if circumstances after mobilisation were to necessitate the formation into units, to meet a military requirement, of Regular Reservists not needed for the Regular Army.
"We expect that most, if not all, of the regimental titles of the former
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TAVR III units will be preserved by conferring these on the cadres.
"We are thus bringing the order of battle of the Volunteer Reserves up to date on a simplified organisational structure; we are taking steps to make the best use of the assets of TAVR III, and to bring about improvement in the recruiting of TAVR II.
"My last word is to the Territorials. I would like to thank them for the service they have given in TAVR III. I would like to express our appreciation of their patience during the past year of uncertainty. Finally, I would like to say how much we hope that they will seek to transfer to the Volunteers."
My Lords, that is the end of my right honourable friend's Statement.
4.21 p.m.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving us this Statement. Noble Lords on all sides of the House are aware that we on these Benches have given the pledge to recreate some form of Territorial Army because we felt, and we still feel, that home defence is of the utmost importance. With the great reduction in Regular forces a well-trained Reserve capable of expansion is essential, and anything that is proposed to improve the present position is welcomed. The announcement in January to disband the TAVR III shocked us, and I should like to pay a great tribute to the personnel of TAVR III who are now going to disappear as such. I was most impressed, and many of us were, at their devotion during the summer in going to camp without pay or allowance or transport, but going at their own expense. We alone among the NATO countries appear to consider that home defence is of no importance, and if this Statement and the plans of the Government go against this dangerous attitude of the past we shall welcome it.
We note from the Statement that there is to be only a relatively small increase in TAVR II at the expense of the "Ever-Readies", and again I should like to pay a tribute to the "Ever-Readies" who are now to disappear. We shall look at the details of this proposal. We support the Government in giving all encouragement to personnel to join

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TAVR II. They have done a spendid job, at the expense of great demands on their time and sacrificing holidays with their families, and really their first year has been most successful. The Statement does not forecast any more units, but only a few more individuals. I do not know whether your Lordships noticed that the final communiqué at the Ministerial session of the NATO Council on November 15 said that the quality of reserve forces will also be improved and their ability to mobilise rapidly will be increased. There is not much in this Statement that encourages us to think that this has been taken to heart, and I would ask the Minister whether this plan is intended in any way to meet the sentiments expressed in this NATO communiqué. We certainly hope that it does.
As regards the less onerous training for some of the personnel in TAVR II, we agree with that. It is impossible for many of our excellent and highly-trained men to give up all the time required, and it is quite possible, I am sure, to carry in units a certain number who do not undertake such big commitments. We think that the proposals for the 100 cadres is certainly a step in the right direction and we welcome it, but we must look into it to see whether 100 cadres of a few men is really going to be capable of forming units quickly in time of mobilisation. This is doubtful, and we should like to hear more about it in due course. I should like to ask the Minister if he can tell me whether the personnel in these 100 cadres—I think it was six to eight officers, N.C.O.s and men—are to be Regulars or Territorials? We shall want to know the full details of this plan which, I understand, are still being worked out. Indeed, I have a message from my noble friend the Duke of Norfolk regretting that he could not be in his place to hear the Statement to-day because he is in the Ministry of Defence discussing these matters.
We shall give full support if these proposals will bring about a proper home defence force and a well-trained Reserve capable of expansion. At first sight we are not sure that this Statement will go far enough, particularly in the light of recent events in Czechoslovakia and in the Mediterranean. We shall ask to have, after the Christmas Recess—because time is short now—a full debate to consider
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the whole problem of recruiting and reservists in all three Services. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Statement.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I should like to endorse the expression of thanks to the Territorials for the services which they have rendered to the nation, and particularly for the patience which they have displayed in recent months. We propose to withhold comment on the merits of the detailed proposals until we have had more time to consider them, particularly in relation to the needs of the Army General Reserve as a whole. I would only ask the Minister at this moment when he thinks we shall get the Statement on the Army General Reserve which is promised in the Statement which he has just repeated, and for which I thank him.
4.27 p.m.
LORD BOURNE: My Lords, I should like to offer one or two observations on the Statement which has been made by my noble friend Lord Winterbottom, and to ask him three questions. Admittedly the Statement and the further detailed working out will require a lot of study. So far it appears to me to be an ingenious shuffle and a funeral service of the Territorials.
The three questions I should like to ask are these. First, was any consideration given by the Government to the role of the Reserve Army, including the Volunteers and Territorials, or is the role still quite undefined? At one time it was moved over from the Ministry of Defence to the Home Office, under the Civil Defence role. That was more or less eliminated, and I made a plea at the time that the Territorial Army should resume its former role, its primary role, of home defence. I received no a answer, so I ask the question again: have the Territorial Army or the Volunteers a role in home defence?
The second question is this. A great emphasis is now being placed by the Government on the Volunteers, TAVR II; and TAVR III, the Territorials, are more or less being eliminated. Am I right in saying that the units and the individuals in TAVR II are merely to fill or to plug holes in the Regular Army, the Regular forces, and that there is no disposable Reserve? Every Commander who goes into battle, every war leader who goes into war,

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requires a Reserve, and he may well require that Reserve right at the beginning. Is there any disposable Reserve force other than these units to plug holes in the Regular forces? My third question is this: has consideration been given to the damage to the volunteer spirit on which this country has been built up and on which it now relies to a very large extent? The Territorials for many of us epitomise the best form of the volunteer spirit—the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, has just referred to many units who went to camp at their own expense this year. You could not have a finer body of men. Has consideration been given to the great damage to the volunteer movement, the volunteer spirit, in this country?
4.30 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in saying that this alteration does not go very far. I also agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, that this is an ingenious shuffle. It comes down to virtually one form of Reserve force: what is at present called TAVR II. Surely in these circumstances the Government should consider reverting to the old name of the Reserve forces—that is to say, "the Territorials" simpliciter—either Territorial Army or Territorial Force, as it was when formed by the Administration in 1906, when Lord Haldane was Secretary of State for War. It was the greatest pity that when the changes took place two or three years ago this extraordinary mix-up over names was made to apply to the Reserve forces of the Crown. One simple word could have been used, and I therefore beseech the Government to take this opportunity of returning to the single word "Territorials", dropping altogether the "Volunteer".
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, can the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, confirm that this plan which he has deployed has the full support of the Chiefs of Staff, without any reservations?
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that this is a disastrous and dangerous policy for this country, especially in face of the troubled situation in the world to-day and the necessity to strengthen our forces having regard to our Continental commitments?
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In view of these factors, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government will ensure that the Territorial drill halls are preserved, so that some future and wiser Government will be able to restore the Territorial Army to its old form?
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I make a brief comment, within the general framework of what I have said on many occasions in your Lordships' House? I very much regretted the wholesale reductions in the size of the Territorial Army which the Government found to be necessary a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, at first glance—and of course one can only form a snap opinion at the moment—it looks to me as if TAVR II will become a much more efficient organisation than it has been up to now, that its numbers will be increased, and that it will be a more effective form of Army Reserve than perhaps has been the case so far. For this reason, coupled with the fact that there has been a general improvement in the efficient organisation of the Army Reserve generally, I welcome this particular move.
I should like to ask my noble friend whether it is the intention of the Government, later on, when the economic condition of the country has improved, to build upon this newly reorganised TAVR II and to expand it because of the very important avenue for public service which it opens to many young men who might be keen to participate. I am delighted to hear that 100 cadres as well as the traditional titles of many proud regiments, are being preserved.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, the countryside from which I come is the recruiting area for the Cameronians, now disbanded. Therefore, I welcome the proposal about the cadres and, like the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, I look forward to hearing more about it. Would the Government in relation to a regiment which has been disbanded (and I speak with some knowledge of the local wish that there should be some nucleus which will embody the military spirit of the area) consider allotting to it some sort of cadre to cover the area from which men used to be drawn?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, for his very helpful response to the Statement. I expect that the

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whole House will wish to have a debate on the general policy of the Reserves of the Armed Forces, and an appropriate moment must come fairly soon after a full Statement has been made about the future of the Army General Reserve in particular. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, and indeed to other noble Lords, for the tributes paid to the Territorials and for their agreement with the hope that as many as possible will transfer to the Volunteers.
May I now try to answer the various points that have been put to me? The whole basis of this strengthening of TAVR II is to improve our reserve support to NATO. As I said in my Statement, the purpose of the increased size of TAVR II is mainly for logistic support in our increased NATO contribution. It is a support to our front-line forces and not, as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, has said, a creation of a Reserve Army for home defence. That is the role of the strengthened TAVR 11.
The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, asked me if the cadres would be made up of Regulars or Territorials. They will in fact be Volunteers, probably drawn from TAVR III units. I have noted what the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, said on the question of the creation of cadres, and I will write to him on the valid and important point which he has made.
In regard to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, about the retention of drill halls, I thought that I had made the matter clear in the interesting debate which took place on this subject in the middle of October. One hundred and fifty drill halls, which were the nuclei around which TAVR III operated, are being retained in one form or another. I indicated in my speech that 100 were required; a further 20 are required for additional Volunteer units, and the remaining 30 are by some means or other being retained for future use by the Volunteers if they should be required. I cannot say what are the exact mechanics, but it is intended to retain the full 150.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that somewhat reassuring reply, but does he mean that drill halls are being retained by the Ministry of Defence, although they may be used by someone else? I understood
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from his noble friend Lord Shackleton, who spoke to me about this matter some time ago, that a number of these drill halls were being offered for sale for other purposes altogether, and were not, in fact, being retained.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I cannot speak for my noble friend but, speaking for myself, I can say that since the debate in October the situation has changed towards retention rather than disposal.
The noble Lord, Lord Balerno, suggested reverting to the old title of Territorials. This has been considered, but we believe that it does not sufficiently indicate the new role of the Volunteers—which of course is not only territorial but has a front-line Reserve significance. We believe that the name "Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve" indicates more properly the role of the new force, or rather the strengthened force, and should not be altered.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, asked me an impossible question. The basis of advice given by the Chiefs of Staff to the Secretary of State is a matter for them alone, but what I have stated to-day is certainly the policy of Her Majesty's Government. That is the significant point of importance rather than any interchange of advice given to the Secretary of State.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord would give me an answer in those terms. But since, during our discussions and debates every six months, Government spokesmen have not had one single wholehearted supporter in this House, I hoped he would tell us that at least the Chiefs of Staff are on their side.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: Lastly, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, asked what would be the function of this new, enlarged Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve. He asked whether it was to plug holes in the Regular forces. That is, perhaps, a rather forceful way of expressing the real facts of the case: its function is to supply reserves for existing Regular units and to replace casualties in them. May I thank the House once again for its very constructive approach on this matter?

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
4.40 p.m.
House again in Committee.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Adoption and approval of local plans]:
On Question, Whether Clause 9 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: May I ask—
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has given notice that he wishes to speak. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, will be able to speak later.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I was merely going to ask the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, whether it would be convenient for him to answer the questions which I put to him.
LORD HUGHES: When we were discussing Clause 7 before the House resumed, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, expressed doubts as to a difference in the wording of Clause 3 relating to structure plans, and the wording of Clause 7 relating to local plans. He said that the terms of Clause 9(4)(b) reinforced the doubts in his mind. I have taken advantage of the interval to read over the wording of Clauses 3 and 7, and quite frankly I cannot understand why the noble Lord has any doubts at all on the matter, because the clauses are identical except for such differences as are necessary since one deals with structure plans and the other deals with local plans.
For instance, in its preamble, Clause 3(1) has different wording because it refers to structure plans. But when it goes on in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) to deal with what is necessary, those paragraphs are almost identical with paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of Clause 7(1). The only difference is in the reference to the actual type of plan, but the action taken is identical. The same applies to subsections (2), (3) and (4) of both clauses. Subsection (5) of Clause 7 comprises in
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itself the action which falls under subsections (5) and (6) of Clause 3, and subsection (7) of Clause 3 does not appear in Clause 7 because it relates only to action on structure plans.
With regard to Clause 9(4)(b), to which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, referred, I would point out to him that subsection (4) refers only to cases covered in subsection (3). Where the Secretary of State has directed that the plan should not have effect unless approved by him, then these other conditions in subsection (4), to one of which the noble Lord referred, will have effect. But it is only in those cases where the Secretary of State has not approved a local plan that the effects of subsection (4) come into operation. The case to which the noble Lord directed attention—that is, paragraph (b) of subsection (4)—merely lays down that if, after the Secretary of State has sent the plan back to the local authority for consideration, they have undertaken various courses of action, then the Secretary of State is not going to do the same thing all over again.
I hope I have satisfied the noble Lord that all that we have done—because we are dealing with two different plans—is to take the easy way of having two clauses dealing separately with each plan, instead of using the complicated way of trying to cover both plans in one clause and getting so hopelessly mixed up that neither he, I nor anybody else would understand it either at the first, second or third time of reading.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for the long explanation which he has given me. But because the similarity is so great, it makes me wonder all the more whether the one procedure should not apply to both sets of plans. I simply do not understand why it should not. The differences are so slight that they might well be brought together.
LORD HUGHES: Perhaps some time, when the noble Lord and I have an hour to spare in the Library, we can sit down and compare the two plans. He will then find that by what he is now suggesting he is asking me to undertake an impossible task, and if I were to undertake it he would be able to comment on it only in the sort of naval language

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which he never uses in your Lordships' Chamber.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 [Determination of planning and similar appeals by persons appointed by the Secretary of State]:
On Question, Whether Clause 21 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: On Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, was good enough to explain that at the present time it was not proposed to appoint persons in accordance with this and subsequent clauses, because the number of appeals were running at a fairly low level and a high proportion of them were withdrawn each year. I dare say the noble Lord will not yet have had time to consider this matter, but if the Secretary of State were to appoint persons to hear appeals of this kind—that is, appeals against planning permission, appeals in respect of certificates of established use, and so on—what sort of persons would he appoint?
Of course, it has often been the custom in the past to appoint advocates to hear appeals of this kind. On the other hand, in England and Wales the procedure has been quite different because, as I understand it, the people who hear such appeals are inspectors from within the Departments with special experience of planning matters. It will be interesting to hear whether the noble Lord can forecast what kind of person will be appointed.
The last point which I should like to mention here is that the Explanatory Memorandum at the beginning of the Bill refers to the gentleman,
"(for convenience referred to in this memorandum as a 'Reporter')".
We had a long discussion about reporters when we were dealing with social work departments, and we were not very clear then whether the word "reporter" was an apt description. It would be even more inept, I think, in this case, because a reporter is someone who reports his findings to somebody else, and in this case the reporter will be the person who actually decides the case. So although it may have been a convenience to refer to these gentlemen as "reporters" in
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the Explanatory Memorandum, I hope they will never in fact be referred to as "reporters" if the Secretary of State ultimately decides to appoint them to hear appeals.
I notice from page 82 of the Scottish Development Department's Report for 1967 that the number of appeals received during the year was 341, which is about the average of the previous two years, and that of these 157 were withdrawn. This, I take it, means that the capacity of the Department to deal with appeals at this level is adequate, and I assume that it is only if the number of appeal; coming up exceeds the capacity of the Department to deal with them that they will then appoint persons of this character to hear the appeals.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has recollected what I said on Second Reading. The Government decided that this was a piece of machinery in the English measure which it was reasonable for us to put into the Scottish Bill, although we thought it was most unlikely, having regard to the volume of appeals, to which the noble Lord has referred, that we should have occasion to use this delegation in the foreseeable future. Simply because of the fact that we do not expect to be using this machinery unless things change very radically in the next few years, I would be reluctant to predict the sort of individual who will be appointed to take decisions on these matters, but obviously he must have one or other of possible qualifications. He must be either someone who is qualified as a planner or someone with legal qualifications. If there is any person who has both qualifications, then obviously he is tailormade for the job. I do not know whether there is such an animal, but it really is much too early to make any prediction at all.
The noble Lord referred to the use of the word "reporters". That term is used in the Explanatory Memorandum because that is the name of the people who are employed at the moment and, as the noble Lord said, it is a proper description for them. Incidentally, I do not accept the implication in the noble Lord's Comment that the use of the word "reporter" in the Social Work (Scotland) Act was inept. That is by the way, but the noble Lord said that its use here is

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even more inept, so if I let it go I would in fact be concurring with him, which I do not. It does not follow that if we ever come to appoint somebody to do this particular task, which will in fact be taking decisions and not reporting so that someone else may take a decision, this is the word which will be used; but because is so far in the future, I hope, I should not wish to suggest what term would be applied. In conversation the other day the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, suggested that the word "commissioner" might be more apt. I must say that at first glance this is the sort of thing which commends itself to me as being more appropriate than the use of the word "reporter". However, I am quite certain that it will be sufficiently far in the future, if it ever arises, as to 'be most unlikely to be a matter of other than academic interest either to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, or myself, so I do not wish to be involved.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clauses 22 to 27 agreed to.
Clause 28 [Compulsory acquisition of land in connection with development and for other planning purposes]:
4.54 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE THE EARL OF DUNDEE moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 28, line 43, at end insert—
("Provided that the purpose for which the Secretary of State may authorise the land to be acquired by such other local authority shall be the same purpose for which he has power to authorise the acquisition of the land by such first mentioned local authority.")
The noble Earl said: Under subsection (2) of Clause 28 the Secretary of State is taking power to authorise a local authority to whom this clause applies to acquire land compulsorily and then to authorise that the land so acquired be taken over by another local authority. My Amendment proposes that this power of the Secretary of State should be restricted so that transfers from one local authority to another would be allowed only for the same purpose as that for which the land was originally acquired. I hope that your Lordships and the Government will agree that that is a reasonable proposal. I do not think it would be fair on anybody, particularly on the people from
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whom land has been compulsorily acquired, that one local authority should acquire it for the purposes of, let us say, a recreation ground and that the Secretar of State should then authorise its transfer to another local authority for the purpose of a housing scheme or an industrial estate. I think that it would not be any restriction on the progress of development if it were required that, before there was such a transfer, the matter should go back and be considered again from the beginning. I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: Subsection (2) gives the Secretary of State power, in a case where he has authorised a local authority to whom Clause 28 applies (that is to say, a county council, a large burgh or a small burgh), to authorise the land to be acquired instead by another authority, being a local authority within the meaning of the 1947 Act; that is, the same range of authorities plus a district council, a joint board or committee of local authorities and certain others. This is a power which in fact is seldom used, but it is potentially of value and may be of value in this particular concept, where we envisage local planning authorities working together as we discussed on an earlier clause. For example, there may be cases where land lying across the boundaries of two or more local authorities should be developed in close association with the redevelopment of land within one authority, and it is really only common sense in these circumstances that the acquisition should be carried out in a single operation by one of the authorities concerned. There may also be added need for this power in advance of the reorganisation of local government to enable co-operating authorities to work together for the acquisition of land within a regional context.
The effect of making the Amendment would be to ensure that where a different authority was authorised to acquire the land the purpose for which the original acquisition was authorised could not be changed. I presume that the main object of this is to prevent the authorisation of compulsory purchase for a purpose such as an open space, where the value would not be high, followed by its use by another authority for another purpose which, if it had been the original purpose, would I have brought about a higher purchase

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price to the person from whom it was compulsorily acquired
This, of course, is neither a new provision nor an extension of the powers of compulsory purchase. It has existed in Section 35(3) of the Scottish 1947 Act, and it has stood the test of time. This has been in operation for 21 years. Like many of the provisions in Part IV of the bill this subsection is designed not to create a new power but to reconstruct an existing power in a way that takes account of the abolition of the requirement that land to be compulsorily acquired must be so designated in the development plan. Section 35(3) of the 1947 Act depends on designation. It is therefore repealed in Schedule 10 because of the abolition of that requirement, and Clause 28(2) does no more than take its place; The general import of Clause 28(2) of the Bill is the same as the general import of Section 35(3) of the 1947 Act.
To come to the merits of the Amendment, we do not think there is any need for a safeguard of the kind proposed. Since both the initial compulsory purchase order and the decision to authorise another local authority to acquire the land lie with the Secretary of State; and since both are linked to the proposals of the development plan, there is no need to fear that land which could be acquired for one purpose can be acquired and used for another purpose.
In these circumstances the question of compensation does not arise to any greater extent than on any other case of compulsory acquisition. The theoretical possibility of a change of purpose after acquisition has been authorised is neither greater nor less whether the original acquiring authority or another authority carries out the actual transaction. The existing safeguards, both statutory (as in the case of the certificate of alternative development procedure) and administrative (as in the arrangements for offering agricultural land back to its former owner), apply equally to both cases.
Perhaps I might say a word about the certificate of alternative development procedure. A local authority may seek to acquire land from someone for a particular purpose. That purpose might be, say, for open space, and in that case the amount of compensation payable
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would probably be the lowest of any that could be paid. The owner of the land may say to the local authority that his land could be better used for this, that or another purpose. If he does, then the local authority must go into this matter. If they agree with the owner that, although they propose to acquire the land for an open space, it could reasonably be used for, say, housing development, they give him a certificate to that effect and the compensation to which he is is assessed on the basis that the land is being used for this alternative purpose rather than for the use to which the local authority are putting it. If, on the other hand, the local authority do not agree with the owner that the land could be better used for another purpose and refuse to give him a certificate, this is a matter on which he has a right of appeal. In these circumstances, there is no question of a local authority deliberately see king to acquire land for, say, open space, if they really intend to use it for another purpose and designating it as open space only in order to acquire it at the lowest price, because the individual by this procedure is safeguarded against that.
I do not think I need to go into the matter of offering agricultural land because I think all noble Lords are familiar with that procedure. We are carrying forward in the Bill the procedure in the same terms as it has existed for 21 years. It is only because of the fact that the matter no longer rests on the designation in the development plan (which was a feaure of the 1947 Act) that it is necessary to re-enact it in the form in which it now stands; in Clause 28. I therefore invite the noble Earl not to press this Amendment.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I agree with what the noble Lord has said about the convenience of enabling land to he transferred from one local authority to another. This Amendment is concerned purely with the cases in which there is a change of purpose. The noble Lord, if I understood him aright, has assured the Committee that this clause makes no change in the previous law in that respect compared with the 1947 Act. I do not want to ask him to look for examples now; but is it the case that this is what has happened under the 1947 Act until now?

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Is it the case that when there has been a change of purpose the owner has been offered the land back for, for example, agricultural purposes? Is the onus of showing that the land is now being used for some purpose other than that for which it has been designated laid on the owner or the former owner? Or is the position that the owner must exercise foresight and must claim (and have his claim either accepted or turned down) that the land should should not be used for a certain purpose; so that he may be in a position later, if there is a change of purpose, to claim that it should be given back to him or that additional compensation should be paid?
LORD HUGHES: The position is as stated in the noble Earl's final remarks, and has been so during this decade. If an owner feels that his land is not being put to the best possible use, and therefore is not going to give him the best possible compensation, he has a right to ask for a certificate of alternative development. If he gets it he is immediately covered in the compensation. But if he does not get it, or does not apply for it, and merely accepts that the local authority take over the land for the purpose suggested, then in neither of these cases, if there is a change of purpose, has he any further rights in the matter. That is the position at the present time.
There may be cases where an authority acquire land for some purpose and. because of a change of circumstances, use it for something else—not necessarily something which would have placed a higher value on it. Sometimes it is the other way round. Sometimes a local authority may acquire land for, say, housing, and then, because of something which was not apparent in the beginning, do not put it to this valuable use, but use it for open space. In such circumstances the local authority have no right to go to the individual and say, "We compensated you on the basis that the land would be used for housing. We have therefore paid you too much and we want to reopen the matter so that compensation may be fixed on the basis of the use to which the land is to be put." The position is that in these circumstances both parties are stuck with the original bargain. That is how it has worked during
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these 20-odd years; and by and large it has been satisfactory. I would confirm the noble Earl's first point that we are in fact re-enacting the law in the form at which it presently rests.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I think the noble Lord's explanation is a reasonable one. I would ask the Committee's leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 [Power of authorities possessing compulsory purchase powers to make general vesting, declarations]:
5.9 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 30 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My purpose in speaking to this clause is to enable the Committee to get an explanation of a point that I should like to raise. This proposal in Clause 30, to introduce vesting procedure for compulsory acquisition in relation to acquisitions under the Town and Country Planning legislation, has caused me a little concern, because the Land Commission already have such powers, and it seems to me unnecessary for those powers to be given also to the local planning authorities. If a local authority cannot acquire the land they need, they can invoke the aid of the Land Commission. I would therefore suggest to the Government that this clause is introducing an unnecessary duplication and that it is not desirable that such powers should be given to local planning authorities in addition to the Land Commission.
LORD HUGHES: The brief which I have been given starts off with words which I should have been reluctant to use in any event, because I was quite certain that they did not cover the intention of the noble Earl. The words are, "This is a wrecking Amendment". It is, of course, almost a declaration of war to use words of that kind, but in fact that would be the effect of the Amendment. What I suspected was that the noble Earl, in moving to leave out the clause, was seeking information about why it is necessary. I think I can make even better use of the occasion by seeking

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to remove some of the doubts and misapprehensions which people have about a general vesting declaration, which has a somewhat ominous ring about it.
I wish that it had been possible to cover this purpose in perhaps more innocuous terms, because what is done by a general vesting declaration is something which is helpful to the acquiring authority and to the person from whom the land is being acquired. May I remind your Lordships that the White Paper on the Land Commission, published in September, 1965, stated the Government's intention of making available to other public authorities in subsequent legislation the power then being conferred on the Land Commission of making vesting declarations to effect speedy vesting in themselves of land which they were authorised to acquire compulsorily.
What does a vesting declaration do? In the first place, it gives a quick good title to land which is to be disposed of for development, the delays of normal conveyancing being avoided. Secondly, settlement of compensation can proceed independently of vesting, and in most cases quicker payment is possible without full investigation. The effect of this clause is, therefore, as was predicted in 1965, to make available to local authorities a power, once a compulsory purchase order has been confirmed (this is important because all the procedures in relation to compulsory purchase up to confirmation have to be gone through; therefore the land is going to go to the acquiring authority) to obtain a good title to land by a simple and speedy process which will transform all the rights of the existing owner in the land to rights to compensation.
The first of the advantages which I have described is not so relevant to local authorities as to the Land Commission since the former are mainly concerned with acquiring and holding land rather than disposing of it. But the economies of professionally trained manpower and of time which the vesting procedure can provide in land transactions are very material. The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said that the Land Commission already have these powers, and he asked why,
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therefore, was it necessary to duplicate them by giving them to local authorities? It was never the intention that the Land Commission should supplant other public authorities possessing compulsory purchase powers, and we went out of our way when the Land Commission was being set up to make perfectly clear that it was not going to override the powers of local authorities. Apart altogether from the merits of preserving the rights of local authorities, if it had been the intention to act in that way it would have meant that the Land Commission could have undertaken the obligation then laid on them only by an enormous expansion of their activities and staff, without any guarantee that there would be any corresponding reduction in the staffs of local authorities. This would have been seeking an expansion of staffs which at the present time are in comparatively short supply, and so we should have been multiplying the demand for staff in a market where they did not exist, and to serve no useful purpose.
For these reasons, we came to the conclusion that it would be unacceptable equally to the Government and to local authorities that the Land Commission should take over in all these cases, and, by the same token, I should have thought it would have been equally unacceptable to the Opposition that it should work in that way. May I conclude by giving to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, a clear assurance that so far as compulsory acquisition itself and the rights to compensation are concerned, the procedures, including the rights and safeguards, are precisely the same, irrespective of the use or the existence of the vesting declaration procedure. If anybody has an objection to the use of the vesting procedure (he is no longer here, but it may be gratifying to the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, to know it), I may say that the people who stand to lose are the lawyers.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his explanation.
On Question, Clause 30 agreed to.
Clauses 31 to 34 agreed to.
Clause 35 [Extension of grounds of objection to blight notice]:
5.17 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 34, line 24, leave out ("do not propose") and insert ("undertake not").
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to substitute the words "undertake not" for the words "do not propose" in page 34, line 24. The clause we are talking about extends the grounds on which objection may be made to a blight notice contained in a counter-notice served by an appropriate authority—it all sounds frightfully technical. As I understand subsection (1), it deals with land falling within Section 38(1)(c) of the 1959 Act; that is, land indicated in a plan of land on which a road is proposed to be constructed, or land to be included in a road which it is proposed to alter or improve, other than land falling under paragraph (b) of subsection (1).
I am bound to say that I find it very difficult to see what modification paragraph (b) makes to Section 38(1)(c) because it also seems to relate to roads and what is excluded from 38(1)(c). The other kind of land, apparently, is land indicated in a structure plan either as land acquired for the purposes of the appropriate authority or as land which may be included in an action area as defined in Clause 2(5). The subsection says that in the case of such land the grounds on which an objection may be made include
"the grounds that the appropriate authority … do not propose to acquire … any part of the hereditament or … any part of the affected area during the period of fifteen years, …"
or more.
It does not seem that the appropriate authority is in any way bound by such an assertion. I recognise that Clause 39(2)(b) of the 1959 Act uses exactly the same words—"do not propose to"; but that is simply a statement that they have no present intention of ever acquiring the land. That, surely, is quite different in character from an assertion that they do not propose to acquire it within a given period. Obviously, a local authority, or any appropriate authority, cannot give an undertaking never in any circumstances to acquire the land in the
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fullness of time in the future. It cannot do that, and clearly in a case like that the words "do not propose" are appropriate; but nothing less than an undertaking has any value in relation to a given number of years. If they violate that undertaking, they should certainly have to indemnify the person serving notice in respect of any loss he might have incurred or may incur as a result of the violation. Therefore, it seems to me that an undertaking ought to be given in cases of this kind if the local planning authorities are going to rely on that to sustain a counter notice to a blight notice.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord has referred to Section 39 of the 1959 Planning Act where these words are used, although it is his contention that something which is to apply in perpetuity is different from something which is to apply for a limited period of time. I cannot accept as logical what he puts forward. I think it is an ingenious way of getting out of the position in which he might have to admit that this Government were following the excellent example of an Act passed by their predecessors. I am not certain whether my colleagues would not view it the other way round and think that I ought to be explaining why we are using these words and not trying to find different ones.
The noble Lord's Amendment would change one of the circumstances in which a local planning authority can serve a counter notice to a blight notice. The Bill provides that the planning authority can do so if they do not propose to acquire any of the affected land for a period of 15 years. The effect of the Amendment would be to require them to undertake not to do that. In the Government's view this would be an undesirable change. Fifteen years is a long way to look ahead, and I think the best that a responsible public body can be asked to do is to state what they believe the position would be and that they cannot see a likelihood of their having to acquire this land for 15 years. If they gave a binding undertaking, it might be the wrong thing to do. It would be contrary to our idea of flexibility in planning, and therefore it would be unreasonable to require the local authority to give such a firm undertaking when considering their attitude towards a blight notice.

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Having said that, I appreciate that the noble Lord's object is not to put difficulties in the way of local authorities but to make it more difficult for a local authority to serve a counter notice in an irresponsible way. After all, it is easier to say that they do not propose to acquire the land in the next 15 years than to say that they will undertake not to acquire the land for the next 15 years.
I would point out to the noble Lord that a counter notice is open to reference to arbitration by the party who has served the blight notice and the arbiter could reject the counter notice if he is not satisfied that the local authority's proposals were firm enough to be founded upon. I have been given some additional words in brackets. I do not know what the legal position is and whether the words are relevant, but they say that it would also seem open to doubt whether any undertaking of this kind, however described, would in practice be more definite than what is meant by a development plan proposal and whether it could be enforced. The planning committee of 1968 cannot bind the planning committee of 1981. This is in fact the principle on which Parliament acts: no Parliament can bind its successor. If local authorities are going to be as successful as we want them to be, we ought not to require them to act in such a way as to tie the hands of their successors. Therefore, I would ask the noble Lord, if he can, to withdraw this Amendment.
LORD BALERNO: May I ask the noble Lord whether this blight notice could affect agricultural land which is part of a farm? If so, it might affect a vital part of an economic unit. If you take away a bit of a farm the whole economy of that farm might fall to the ground. Therefore, I should think that the matter having been under dispute, and if it had been settled in favour of the land remaining on the farm, it would be only right that an undertaking should be given. I am very much inclined to support my noble friend's Amendment.
LORD HUGHES: I must admit that I am a little out of my depth in agricultural matters these days, but I suspect that when considering the effect of blight on agricultural land, one piece of land would not be considered without its effect on the balance of the farm being taken into
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account. Presumably one must consider the effect of blight on the owner or the occupier using the land. I should like to confirm that, and if the noble Lord is content to leave it on that basis I will let him know in due course. I hope I do not have to tell him that I am sorry I was wrong.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I thank the noble Lord for the explanation he has given. No doubt referring the matter to arbitration is a considerable safeguard. Where there is a position of virtual unmarketability of land, which is what blight means (the affecting of the land in such a way that it becomes much less advantageous to dispose of it) if the local authority are not prepared to acquire it on the ground that the blight is not likely to rest—in other words, that the action which is feared by the applicant is not likely to take place, but that action nevertheless takes place and the individual suffers thereby, whatever may have been the anticipation of the arbiter, then it seems to me that the person concerned should be indemnified.
I see that there is a safeguard here. But if you say that you propose not to acquire the land, or you propose not to do such-and-such, and later you do it, and the result is adverse to the owner or occupier of the land, it seems to me that he should be indemnified in respect of the reason why the action which he wanted to take before has been made impossible. It is a difficult problem to resolve fairly. I think the noble Lord has given a reasonable explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clauses 36 to 38 agreed to.
Clause 39 [New provisions restricting demolition, etc., of listed buildings]:
On Question, Whether Clause 39 shall stand part of the Bill?
5.32 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I want to ask a question about the provisions relating to buildings of architectural and historic interest. A good many of these buildings are in local authority ownership. I should

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like the noble Lord to explain what protection there is under these provisions for the rights of the public in this respect. Where the buildings belong to a private person, then that person has to get permission to carry out any works. Permission is obtained from the local planning authority, and the local planning authority has to refer the matter to the Secretary of State. But what happens when the building is actually in the hands of the local authority which happens to be the local planning authority or another local authority? Does the matter then have to be referred to the Secretary of State, or can the local authority go ahead on a listed building and carry out any work they like—demolish the building, or whatever it may be? I have been unable to detect in the Bill what happens in those circumstances.
LORD HUGHES: The answer is quite a simple one. In the case where the building is in the ownership of the local authority the local planning authority still have to report to the Secretary of State. So the same position obtains as in the case of a private individual.
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 46 agreed to.
Clause 47 [Building preservation notice in respect of building not listed]:
LORD HUGHES: Amendment No. 6 is a drafting Amendment. The word "district" is the term customarily used in Scottish legislation to describe an area for which a local planning authority is responsible. The Amendment merely takes account of this. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 33, leave out ("area") and insert ("district").—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clause 49 [Compulsory acquisition of listed building in need of repair]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 46, line 39, leave out from ("may") to ("acquire") in line 40, and insert ("subject to the provisions of this section").
The noble Lord said: This is a small point. I am aware that the words that I propose to alter are in the English Act, but they read oddly to me. Subsection (2) of Clause 49 reads:
"Where it appears to the Secretary of State, in the case of a building to which this section applies, that reasonable steps are not being taken for properly preserving it, he may be authorised under this section to acquire compulsorily the building and any land comprising or contiguous or adjacent to it",
and so on. One would like to know who is going to authorise him and in what circumstances. It is peculiar wording. I should have thought that the more normal wording would have been that
"the Secretary of State may, subject to the provisions of this section, acquire compulsorily".
This is a straightforward drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: I am full of admiration for the way the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, can light on these things which he finds difficult to understand. I must confess that there are many more things which appear in the Bill that I find difficult to understand beyond those which the noble Lord picks on. But once again he has right on his side, although it will not surprise him in the least when I say that the Government think that he has found the wrong solution. Due to his difficulty in understanding this reference to "authorising", he has proposed to put in this signpost. This is wrong, because if we accept this way of dealing with the matter, we cannot be content with putting up one signpost but shall have to erect similar signposts in various other parts of the Bill.
I must say that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn is right in drawing attention to the queerness of the use of the words, "he may be authorised under this section to acquire", in line 39 and 40, and I accept that this is not wholly appropriate, because there is no authorisation which appears to be in question. What I will therefore undertake to do is to have the subsection re-examined, from the point of view of putting forward a possible Government Amendment at the next stage, which one would hope would put the terms of the clause in a form that will pass the subsequent re-scrutiny of

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the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, without the necessity of erecting a series of signposts at various points throughout the Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will find this a satisfactory assurance, and will be able to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I thank the noble Lord and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 49 agreed to.
Clauses 50 to 54 agreed to.
Clause 55 [Directions by Secretary of State to local planning authorities with respect to development affecting Conservation Areas]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 51, line 28, leave out ("the") and insert ("that person or").
The noble Lord said: This is again a minor drafting Amendment. This point is raised just for curiosity. Subsection (2) says:
"Different directions may under this section be given to different local planning authorities; and any such directions may require an authority …
(b) to supply to any person or body, whom they are required by the directions to consult, specified documents or information enabling the body to form an opinion on which to base their advice."
What about the poor "person"? I should have thought that here the appropriate words were:
"… enabling that person or body to form an opinion on which to base their advice".
I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: Once again the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has picked up something which is not satisfactory. On this occasion I do not even have the satisfaction of saying that I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment. I will put it in another form. He has even hit on a perfectly satisfactory way of correcting the matter because, after all, all he is doing is proposing to insert the word which ought to have been there in the first place and was left out by error. I therefore have pleasure in accepting the, Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am obliged to the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 56 to 62 agreed to.
Clause 63 [Delegation of planning functions to officers of local authorities]
5.43 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 58, line 23, leave out from ("incurred") to end of line 26 and insert ("if in all the circumstances it appears to them to he just and reasonable so to do.")
The noble Lord said: I think there is rather more substance in this Amendment, although the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, may not be quite so ready to agree with it. I should nevertheless like to put the point of it to him. This, clause deals with the delegation of planning functions to officers of local authorities, and subsection (1) lists the matters which may be delegated for decision to officers of local authorities. Subsection (5) deals with actions brought against officers of a local authority to whom local authority has delegated one of the functions.
If an action is brought in respect of an act done by an officer in tae discharge, or purported discharge, of his functions, and damages are awarded against him, as I understand it the subsection gives the authority power to indemnify him in whole or in Fart on certain conditions if the circum stances are such that he is not legally entitled to require the local authority to indemnify him. The conditions are that the authority are satisfied that he honestly believed that the act complained of was done in the discharge of those functions and that his duty required or entitled him to do it. It seems to me that the effect of these conditions is that if the authority does not indemnify the officer, and if the officer is not able to pay the award, the person who has been wronged will not get the damages awarded to him, or will not get them in full; he will receive damages only to the extent that the officer is able to pay them. Surely, this is most unfair. It is the authority who are responsible for delegating the task to the officer.

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They do not have to do it; they do it on their own discretion. Therefore, the authority should ensure that nobody is worse off as a result of their delegation.
The words suggested in the Amendment do not go so far as to place an absolute obligation on the local authority in respect of the actions of their servants, because of course it may be right in some circumstances to require the officer to pay as much as he can. The words proposed in the Amendment are:
"if in all the circumstances it appears to them"—
that is, to the authority—
"to be just and reasonable so to do".
What these words do is to leave it completely to the discretion of the authority, without being inhibited by having to be satisfied that the officer honestly believed the action complained of was done in the discharge of his functions. I believe that the words proposed in the Amendment are well precedented. I have not been able to find them, but I am sure that I have seen something of this kind several times. It seems to me that the test ought not to be the honesty or dishonesty of the officer, but the need to ensure that justice is done and that the award of the court is carried out. Here is a case where the authority have full liberty to delegate or not to delegate. If they delegate, then it seems to me that they must accept the consequences and back up the person to whom they delegate. I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: The brief which I have been given has misconceived the purpose which lies behind the noble Lord's Amendment. But, fortunately, that does not in any way affect the reasoning in the brief. In looking at this Amendment we assumed that what the noble Lord was seeking to do was to give the strongest possible security to the officer, and we have not in fact looked beyond the officer to the person who was seeking to he recompensed for the damage which had been done to him by the officer. But, fortunately, if we are increasing the security of the officer in regard to indemnity, we are in fact meeting the point.
We are not disposed to accept the Amendment because we believe that, contrary to what the noble Lord has
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argued, this will in fact have the result of narrowing the field in which indemnity may be offered. The circumstances in which an officer may be indemnified against a claim for damages or expenses are those which the noble Lord has stated. I should like to put it in these words. The local authority may indemnify if they are satisfied that the officer concerned honestly believed two things: first of all, that he was discharging his functions, and, secondly, that his duty required or entitled him to do the act that has led to the claim for damages or expenses. Generalising the conditions in the way which the Amendment suggests might well have the effect of creating uncertainty both in the minds of the local authority and, what is even more important, in law about whether or not the authority could or should indemnify in a particular case.
As the Bill stands, there is no doubt at all that they can indemnify provided that they are satisfied on these two definite factors; or, to put it another way, the officer can lose his protection only if he knowingly exceeded his duties. But under the Amendment the local authority would have to make a more subjective and imponderable judgment. For example, without the guidance of the specific words in Clause 63(5), an authority might well decide in a case in which the officer had acted stupidly that it would not be reasonable to indemnify him, even if he honestly believed that he was discharging his functions, and even if he honestly believed that he was doing his duty. They might infer, rightly, that they would in fact be exceeding their powers if they proceeded to indemnify an officer for an act of stupidity. But, as the clause stands, the local authority would be right to indemnify an officer, although he acted stupidly, if he honestly believed that he was doing the job he had to do and that he was under a duty to act as he did.
This is a case where the rights of an individual claiming damages or expenses lie exactly in the same direction as the rights of the officer. The greater the extent to which the officer is indemnified against these claims, the greater the likelihood that the individual will be able to collect the damages to which he is entitled. There may be cases where an officer is not indemnified and he may be in a financial position to pay what is so

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awarded. In those cases the noble Lord would not be worried. He is concerned about the cases where substantial damages might be awarded which were beyond the financial capabilities of the officer. If the local authority did not indemnify that officer this would be a wrong against the individual who had successfully rased an action and then was unable to get it implemented, either in full or in part.
I have gone fully into this matter and I am convinced of the rightness of the wording in the Bill: that what it does will be a greater safeguard, both to the claimant and to the individual, than the more general wording implied in the Amendment. In fact it will be difficult for the local authority not to indemnify in terms of the wording of the Bill. Therefore I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: But surely in all cases the local authority is responsible for the actions of its servants. I thought this was a maxim of law that stood in all cases.
LORD HUGHES: No, my Lords, the local authority is responsible for the actions of its servants properly undertaken.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: Am I living in a complete fool's paradise? I thought this was the reason one took out a fidelity insurance guarantee policy, to cover the actions—stupid or otherwise—of the servants of a local authority. Is this not so?
LORD HUGHES: Possibly it is, but I am pointing out that the terms of the Bill would make, it proper for the authority to indemnify even where the official was stupid, whereas the Amendment might make it improper for the local authority to do so if they said, "This man was not undertaking his duty properly, therefore we will not so indemnify".
Let us be clear about this. The use of the words "an officer acts stupidly" might be interpreted as a slur on local government officers. It is not so intended. In a number of cases where an officer does something which results in damage to an individual because the officer has acted wrongly in some way, the local authority itself may have acted equally wrongly, and therefore it is right that the authority
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itself should be responsible for paying the compensation and the damages. We are seeking to ensure that this is done on the widest possible basis, so that there is neither injury to the claimant nor to the official, but that the local authority should carry the responsibility in every case where it is reasonable for it to do so.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: But am I not right in thinking that it is possible for a local authority with this responsibility to comply with it by "laying it off" by means of insurance?
LORD HUGHES: Yes; and I should think in many cases this would be done. But the noble Viscount will know from his own experience of local authority matters that there are many fields in which the local authority acts as its own insurer because its financial resources are sufficient to enable it to cover everything but the most major catastrophes.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I recognise the force of the noble Lord's argument, and I hope that he will equally recognise the force of mine. I think the right course may lie somewhere between the two. Apparently I took the noble Lord unawares because of the angle Iron which I approached this Amendment. But surely this is the right attitude from which to start: that if an award is made by the courts against an officer, then in such a case that award should be met. It does not matter whether the act leading to the claim was done by the officer acting ultra vires or dishonestly. That has nothing to do with the case. The award should be met, and that is our objective. As to how far the officer is indemnified, that is another matter. I would ask the noble Lord to look at this again, to make certain that in all cases, and not just in most of them, an award of this kind will be met by the local authority which has appointed the officer and is therefore responsible.
LORD HUGHES: I should be quite happy to do this—and in fact I feel that it would be wrong to do otherwise—but the noble Lord is now asking me to go even beyond the terms of his Amendment. His Amendment does not envisage that indemnity would be given in all cases. He enters this caveat:
if in all the circumstances it appears to them to be just and reasonable so to do".

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In the first place this contemplates the possibility that there are circumstances in which indemnity will not be given. Looking at it from a lay point of view, one would say "appears just and reasonable" to whom? Just to the ratepayers? Reasonable to the ratepayers? Just to the individual claimant? Reasonable to the individual claimant? Just to the officer? Reasonable to the officer? Just or reasonable to some impartial person outside? It brings in a whole host of imponderables. However, I am willing to look at it again, because there is nothing between the noble Lord and the Government in what we are seeking to do, which is to ensure that indemnity covers the widest possible field.
It would be wrong for me to undertake that in all circumstances the local authority must be required to indemnify, because unless the noble Lord has completely changed his mind on this, his Amendment does not go so far. I am prepared to go with him along the road that the number of cases where there should not be indemnity should be kept to the unavoidable minimum. We should go as far towards a complete indemnification as is reasonable, but we should try to get it in some specific form of wording so that in trying to widen the security we do not—as my advisers tell me this Amendment does—narrow the security which is given to both sets of individuals.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I tried to make it clear that I thought that the right solution lay between my position and his. I was not arguing in favour of my Amendment. Obviously, if an officer has been culpably dishonest then he should pay as much as he can; but when he cannot pay the lot the authority should make up the difference. The point is that the award should be met. That is why I do not think it would be right to say that the officer should be indemnified in full. I see the force of the noble Lord's argument and I see that authorities might not interpret the words I have put down in the way I should like them to and think they ought to. May we leave it at that, and perhaps the noble Lord would be good enough to have a further look at it. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 63 agreed to.
Clauses 64 to 90 agreed to.
Clause 91 [Powers for local planning authorities analogous to s. 46 of Act of 1947]:
6.2 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 82, line 29, after ("order") insert ("being a person who will benefit directly from the development").
The noble Lord said: We are here dealing with powers of planning authorities with regard to stopping up or diversion of any footpath or bridleway, and this subsection says:
"An order under this section may, if the local planning authority are satisfied that it should do so, provide—
(d) for requiring any person named in the order …"
and then these words would be inserted, "being a person who will benefit directly from the development"—
"to pay, or make contributions in respect of, the cost of carrying out any such works."
It seemed to me that it was quite possible that persons might be named in the order who were not likely to benefit directly from the development. Equally, if they were not likely to benefit from the development, then in the case of a stopping up order of a footpath or bridleway there seemed no reason why they should be required to make a contribution to the cost of the works. I think this is a simple Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord said this is a simple Amendment. The subsection which it is proposed to amend enables a local authority when making an order authorising the stopping up or diversion of a footpath or bridleway to order a named person to pay, or make contributions to, the cost of the works. The effect of the Amendment would be to qualify this power by providing that the person named must be one who will benefit directly from the development which is enabled by the stopping up or diversion. We do not think this qualification would be appropriate. The main purpose of the power is to make it possible for a developer to be required to defray the cost of a stopping-up or diversion which is being carried out in his

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interest, but there could be a case in which a diversion could take two forms, one of which would incidentally or indirectly benefit other parties than the developer whose development set the process in train. It would be wrong for this more useful solution to be ruled out for want of any means of ensuring that those who benefited indirectly would pay their appropriate share of the cost.
There is no fear of unfairness or unreasonableness in the exercise of this power. An order under Clause 91 if it is opposed car not take effect until it is confirmed by the Secretary of State, and before confirming the order the Secretary of State must give the usual opportunity for representations, a local inquiry, a report by a person appointed and so on. There is ample protection, therefore, against any misuse of the power and there is no need to qualify it in the Act. Even if we thought that it was necessary to remove the theoretical possibility that a person unaffected by the stopping-up or diversion could be named, it is very difficult. The words "directly or indirectly", for instance, are so wide as to be almost without effect, and any more detailed definition seems likely to be too involved.
However, in considering this Amendment we have noticed a possible defect in the provisions of Schedule 6 which may be helpful to the noble Lord, because that Schedule sets out the procedure for orders under Clause 93. Paragraph 1(2) of the Schedule requires notice of an order to be served on various parties—owners, occupiers, lessees, public authorities and statutory undertakers—but there is no requirement for service on a person named in the order under Clause 91(2)(d). To some extent this may be taken as confirmation of the fact that it is not expected that parties not directly affected would be named. However, we propose to examine the possible need for a requirement of service of the notice on any person so named, and I think that if we come to the conclusion that he should be included in those to be named under the Schedule this may go some way towards meeting the noble Lord's point. I expect to be putting down an Amendment to Schedule 6 at the next stage. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will find it possible not to press this Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 91 agreed to.
Clauses 92 to 106 agreed to.
Schedules 1 to 3 agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Control of works for demolition, alteration or extension of listed buildings]:
6.9 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 103, line 24, leave out from ("period") to ("shall") and insert ("and the Secretary of State shall notify the owner or lessee and the authority on whom the notice was served of the date on which the notice is deemed to have been confirmed and thereupon the authority").
The noble Lord said: This is a rather more complicated matter and I approach it with some diffidence. This Part of the Schedule is headed "Proceedings on Listed Building Purchase Notice", and deals with a requirement when a listed building consent is refused—if that is the right expression—that the local authority shall purchase in circumstances where the use of the land cannot be made beneficial either as a result of the refusal of the application or the attachment of Conditions. It says:
"If, before the end of the relevant period"—
which is a period described in subsection (3), that of nine months beginning with the date of the purchase notice, or of six months beginning with the date on which a copy of the purchase notice was transmitted to the Secretary of State, whichever first expires—
"the Secretary of State has neither confirmed the purchase notice nor taken any such action in respect thereof as is mentioned in subparagraphs (3) to (6) of paragraph 13 above"—
which are the various things that he may do instead of confirming—
"and has not notified the owner or lessee by whom the notice was served that he lees not propose to confirm the notice, the notice shall be deemed to be confirmed at the end of that period"—
and then come the words that it is proposed to leave out:
"and the authority on whom the notice was served shall be deemed to have been authorised

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to acquire the relevant interest compulsorily in accordance with the provisions of Section 49 of this Act …"
I should be grateful if, to start with, the noble Lord can explain this rather curious procedure. It seems to me that if the Secretary of State either does not like to be bothered to deal with this matter or loses the papers, or something like that, then at the end of a certain period the notice shall be deemed to be confirmed. I have never before heard of a procedure of this kind so far as the Secretary of State is concerned. The idea that he should do nothing and then, through his doing nothing, the notice should be deemed to be confirmed, to say the least of it, seems most unusual.
What the Amendment seeks to do is to say that this notice shall be deemed to be confirmed at the end of the period, and then there should appear the words:
"and the Secretary of State shall notify the owner or lessee and the authority on whom the notice was served of the date upon which the notice is deemed to have been confirmed and thereupon the authority shall be deemed to have been authorised to acquire the relevant interest compulsorily …"
This, at least, would make clear that the Secretary of State is not acting by inadvertence in this matter, or that the confirmation is going through because the Secretary of State has not bothered to deal with the matter. I find this a rather curious precedent to establish. I do not know whether there are any precedents of this kind, but at any rate the Amendment would require the Secretary of State to take some action, in the words of the famous story, "even if it is only to say 'Goodbye'". I beg to move.
6.14 p.m.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord's recollections in this matter are not so good as they usually are. He has said that he has never heard of this procedure. It is the procedure which exists under the 1947 Act and which was so acceptable that it was confirmed in the 1959 Act; so at least he was a party to it on one occasion—on the second occasion by commission and on the first occasion, perhaps, by omission. But, quite frankly, I cannot understand the Amendment. I know that this was one of the conditions suggested by the Scottish Landowners' Federation, because I, too, received the document. They do not make secrets in
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these matters. We just do not know why they want this Amendment. They seem to be seeking to act against their own interests in this matter.
Let us examine the position. If there is a purchase notice the Secretary of State can confirm it or reject it. The Landowners' Federation are not seeking to do anything to encourage the Secretary of State to reject a purchase notice; it is in the interests of their members that a purchase notice should take effect. It does not seem to me to matter in the slightest whether the purchase notice takes effect because the Secretary of State does nothing, or whether it takes effect because he confirms it. I could have, understood the Amendment if they had said, "Why should we have to wait nine months or six months?; let us have it for six months and three months", or "three weeks and two weeks." But they are not asking for it to be expedited, but in fact to say that at the end of the period of nine months or six months, whichever is the earlier, the Secretary of State will say that the notice is deemed to have been confirmed; not that the Secretary of State will say it has been confirmed, but that it has been deemed to be confirmed. In other words, all that they are asking is that the Secretary of State will say at the end of the period, "I'm sorry, boys, I have forgotten about it; but you will have exactly the same result as if I had acted upon it and confirmed it."
There may be a whole variety of reasons why the Secretary of State may not have acted during this period, even including the one that, for some extraordinary reason which I cannot foresee, it has not even reached him. In those circumstances, it is much in the interests of a landowner that at the end of a specified period or periods of time he has the protection that, if no decision has been taken for or against him during that period, the right to act against him automatically lapses and the purchase notice takes effect. I can think of nothing more favourable to the person having the benefit of a purchase notice than the putting in of this provision that at the end of a given period he is automatically deemed to have his purchase notice confirmed.
I am quite certain that the Scottish landowners are a fair body of people, but I am equally certain that the reason why

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they put forward this Amendment was not because they were worried about the reputation of the Secretary of State. They were not worried about the possibility that people would say "Goodness! this is because the Secretary of State has forgotten all about it and it is taking effect now just because he has done nothing. "They must think there is some advantage to them in this procedure and, if there is any advantage which can be given to them by doing what they want and which we have been unable to find, I am quite prepared to have a look at it. But there is the possibility that they might in some cases lose, whereas, so far as I can see, in no case can they lose at all by what is in the Bill.
I would therefore suggest to the noble Lord that he should withdraw the Amendment and endeavour to find out exactly what the Scottish Landowners' Federation are after. At least he can justify going back to them on the basis that the Government are as ignorant as he is as to what they are getting at. If there is a useful purpose then by all means he can bring it back. I may say, in this connection, that the provision in the Bill has much in common with the Planning Act purchase notice procedure on both sides of the Border. This is in Section 17 of the 1947 Act. At the moment we are reconsidering certain aspects, and it may well be that when we are looking at the wider context we shall also be looking at this particular point.
For the life of me, however, I cannot see that any reconsideration of this point would be other than against the interests of the landowners. It may be that we are being obtuse and that there is some obvious point that they are after which we have quite failed to see. If there is a useful purpose I would invite the noble Lord to have another go at it after he has elicited what is behind it.
6.20 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I shall willingly accept the noble Lord's invitation. It may be that the Scottish Landowners' Federation, to whom, as he quite correctly thought, I am indebted for this Amendment—if that is the right expression—
LORD HUGHES: I would not have used the word "indebted" in the circumstances.
LORD DRUMALBYN: —were in the same error as I myself in thinking that this was something quite normal However, I will certainly find out what is behind it, and if there is any substance behind it I can refer to it at the next stage. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 4 [Control of works for demolition, alteration or extension of listed buildings]:
On Question, Whether Schedule 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask a question about Schedule 4? This question of listed building consents can give rise to quite a lot of trouble. There is one point I would raise on this, that is, that under paragraph 3 if the Secretary of State calls in an application, then there is no appeal. He himself considers it, and his decision under paragraph 3(5) is final. It is very important to make certain—and one knows from one's own experience in the Scottish Office long ago how important this is—that the right people are consulted at the right time. I should like to ask what it is that will govern the Secretary of State's consent to call in applications for consent in such cases. Is it purely a matter of public interest or of the importance of the building? I should like to know on what this would be based.
I should also like to ask a question about paragraph 7, which says:
"Where an application is made to the local planning authority for listed building consent, then, unless within the prescribed period from the date of the receipt of the application, or within such extended period as may at any time be agreed upon in writing between the applicant and the authority, the authority either—

(a) give notice to the applicant of their decision on the applications; or,

(b) give notice to him that the application has been referred to the Secretary of State in accordance with directions given under paragraph 3 of this Schedule,

the provisions of paragraph 6 of this schedule shall apply in relation to the application as if listed building consent had been refused by the authority …"
There are so many periods that are to be prescribed in the course of this Bill that I should think it is going to be very difficult to keep track of them all. But

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this one, I should have thought, was fairly important, and I wonder whether the noble Lord can give me some indication of what sort of period is likely to be prescribed in a case like this. Here the presumption, of course, is that the consent has been refused by the authorities. It is the opposite presumption from the one we were considering earlier. I wonder whether the noble Lord could explain that.
Those are the main points that I wanted to raise on this Schedule. It is a complicated and important Schedule. Of course one knows how very much public interest there is in the preservation of what are now to be called by the unpleasant phrase "listed buildings" (it makes one think a little of the Leaning Tower of Pisa), and I think it is very important that this should be very carefully studied.
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord was not so kind on this point. He did not give me notice of his intention to raise it, and I must admit that I was well pleased about this section of the Bill, in relation to these buildings. I thought it was going so far to meet the requirements and the wishes of those interested in preserving buildings that all we should get for this would be commendations rather than questions.
It is difficult to be precise about what would govern the Secretary of State's decision to call in a particular case, but in general terms it would be affected by the importance of the building and its environment, perhaps the likelihood of controversy—in short, as the noble Lord himself put it, that delightful phrase which covers so many things, "the public interest". Obviously, sometimes controversy is likely to arise. There can be circumstances in which locally the local authority are pulled two ways. There may be the desire to protect the building, the protection of which may be very much in the national interest as distinct from the local interest. On the other hand, there may be a contrary pull on the local authority which would be very much in the local interest, but which would be of no particular appeal from a national point of view.
In these circumstances, the Secretary of State might decide that the national
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interest might not be given the weight it fully deserved, and that in these circumstances he, with his responsibilities, both local and national, was in a better position to arrive at an impartial and right decision than could be arrived at locally. That is one particular set of circumstances, but I must come back in the end to the words which the noble Lord himself suspected I might use, "in the public interest".
As to the time limit, we have not yet decided what these limits should be, and I hope the noble Lord will not press me to make a forecast, because if I did it would not be a forecast at all, but merely a guess; and if we are going to enter into guessing games he is just as able to guess himself as to ask me to do it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord, but he has not answered my last point as to why the result of inaction, so to speak, in the case of paragraph 7 on the part of the local authority with regard to the application, is the opposite of the result of inaction on the part of the Secretary of State in paragraph 14 of Part III of the Bill.
LORD HUGHES: I should like to look at this. Sometimes the right thing to do is to act on positive factors, and sometimes it appears to be more correct to act on negative factors. Quite frankly I cannot, offhand, say why in the one case it is a positive which appears the right way, and in the other one it is the negative, but I will inform the noble Lord as speedily as possible, so that if he thinks there is any value in consistency in this matter he can seek to introduce it. I ought to know the answer to this question but it really has slipped my mind. I think this is a case where consistency would produce the wrong result, but I cannot guarantee that.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord and I must apologise to him for not giving notice of this particular point. He probably can diagnose the reason why—that I did not think I was going to have to deal with this particular Schedule.
Schedule 4 agreed to.
Schedules 5 to 7 agreed to.
Schedule 8 [Adaptation and Interpretation of Enactments, etc.]
LORD HUGHES: This is purely a drafting Amendment to correct a printing error. I beg to move Amendment No. 13.
Page 114, line 3, leave out ("22(1)") and insert ("22(2)").
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HUGHES LORD HUGHES moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 117, line 36, after ("requirement") insert ("or on requirement as to operations to be carried out").
The noble Lord said: The brief which I have been given on this Amendment says "The purpose of this Amendment is to assist the reader by describing with greater accuracy the content of section 17(2) of the Building (Scotland) Act 1959 which deals with alteration and extension as well as with demolition of property. The Amendment in no way alters the effect of paragraph 36 of Schedule 8 to the Bill. "This proves conclusively that those who draw up these Bills do not always set out with the purpose of seeking to confuse people. They generally intend to make a Bill as intelligible as possible. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HUGHES: Amendment No. 15 is a drafting Amendment to correct a printing error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 119, line 36, leave out first ("of") and insert ("to").—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 8, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 9 agreed to.
Schedule 10 [Enactments repealed]:
LORD HUGHES LORD HUGHES moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 125, line 31, after ("24(7)") insert ("subject to the exception in section 69(3) of this Act").
The noble Lord said: The effect of this Amendment is to qualify the repeal of Section 24(7) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1945 which appears in Schedule 10 to the Bill. Section 24(7) of the 1945 Act provides that where an order under subsection (4) or (5) of Section 24 extinguishing a right of way or rights of statutory undertakers in
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respect of apparatus under certain land is duly made and not withdrawn before the making of the order, the order shall be provisional only and shall be of no effect until confirmed by Parliament. Clause 69(3) of the Bill provides that certain provisions (including Section 24(7) of the Act of 1945) shall cease to have effect. As a result of this provision an order under Section 24(4) or (5) shall no longer be subject to Special Parliamentary Procedure. The sole exception is in respect of an order made before the commencement of Clause 69 of the Bill. The Amendment takes account of this exception in favour of orders which have been made before. It was not intended that they should lose the benefit which they have at present, and this Amendment puts the matter right. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with the Amendments.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUSTRIAL INJURIES) (COLLIERY WORKERS SUPPLEMENTARY SCHEME) AMENDMENT (No. 2) ORDER 1968
6.34 p.m.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Kennet I beg to move that the National In Durance (Industrial Injuries) (Colliery Workers Supplementary Scheme) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1968, the draft of which was laid before this House on November 12, he approved. In view of the fact that the Special Orders Committee has examined this Order and advised the House that it can be passed, I will not at this hour delay your Lordships with a speech. However, if there are any questions, I shall do my best to answer them. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) (Colliery Workers Supplementary Scheme) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1968, laid before the House on November 12 last, be approved.—(Baroness Serota.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before seven o'clock.