Sitting of 24 January 1968

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Bread (Prices)
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the recent devaluation of the £ sterling and the reduction in world grain prices, he will undertake to refer proposed increases in the price of bread to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the percentage increase in bread prices due to devaluation.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Hoy): On 11th January, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs and my right hon. Friend referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes for examination the proposed increases in the price of flour attributable to increased costs due to devaluation. As stated in the terms of this reference, the Government's decision on the proposed increases in bread prices will take account of the Board's recommendations on flour prices. It would not be proper for me to anticipate the Board's findings.
    Mr. Hamilton: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. As, of course, he knows, there is a world abundance of grain, the main ingredient for baking bread. With that in mind, does he not agree that no increase is necessary? Does he not also agree that any such increase would be a further imposition on the lower-paid
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    workers, particularly those with large families?
    Mr. Hoy: I am sure my hon. Friend would not expect me to anticipate what the Board will say. I remind him that the baking industry's costs and prices have been thoroughly examined by the Board. They were examined in 1965 and twice in 1966 and reports issued upon them. He can be assured that all relevant factors will be taken into account.
    Mr. Farr: This is a critical matter. Over two months after devaluation date, the Minister says he is not able to give an answer to my Question relating to an estimate. Surely he should have worked out these matters before devaluation?
    Mr. Hoy: I am sure the hon. Member will agree that we should not anticipate the findings. Having referred the matter to the Board, it would be unfair to anticipate what the findings may be.

    Foot-and-Month Disease
    Mr. Biffenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the foot-and-mouth epidemic.
    Mr. James Davidsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now make a statement on the foot-and-mouth epidemic, with particular regard to the source and origin of the outbreak and its subsequent pattern of spread.
    Sir G. de Freitasasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a further statement about the foot-and-mouth epidemic.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): My right hon. Friend reported progress to the House on 17th January in reply to the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). The number of outbreaks is now 2,308; 204,000 cattle, 98,100 sheep, and 112,800 pigs have been slaughtered. The reduction in the average daily number of outbreaks continues to fall, and averages three for the week ended 23rd January.
    The infected area round Ledbury in Herefordshire has been contracted, and other contractions have been made round Derby as well as in Staffordshire. But

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    because of a fresh outbreak in Laxton, the Nottinghamshire area has had to be extended north and south.
    As regards the origin and spread of the present series of outbreaks, I am unable to add to the Answers given on 18th January to the hon. Members for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and Banbury.
    Mr. Biffen: Could the hon. Gentleman take this occasion to reaffirm that the Government are committed to the principle of compensating for stock losses at replacement value? Could he further confirm that he hopes soon to make a statement following his discussions with the N.F.U. on this point?
    Mr. Mackie: No, Sir. We do not pay compensation at replacement values but at market values. As the hon. Member knows, we are carrying forward the first valuation and we are making a concession there, but we cannot pay at replacement value.
    Mr. Davidson: Can the hon. Gentleman say, as he has given us the number of cattle which have had to be slaughtered, what proportion this represents of breeding cattle, roughly speaking, in the infected area?
    Mr. Mackie: It is about 1·5 per cent, of the total cattle in the country, but I cannot give the percentage in the infected area.
    Sir G. de Freitas: When considering the terms of reference of the new Committee of inquiry on the lines of the Gowers Committee, will the Minister ensure that they take account of the tremendous advances in recent years in preventive medicine in those countries where there is not a slaughter policy and where consequently they have been forced to pay particular attention to this?
    Mr. Mackie: I am sure my right hon. Friend will bear in mind my right hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. Godber: I am sure that the whole House will be glad to hear of a reduction in the virulence of this epidemic. Will the hon Gentleman address his mind to the urgent need for establishing the independent Committee which the Minister has already promised to look into all the aspects of this problem and all that arises from it? On the question asked
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    by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) about replacement value, he will be aware that for these cattle and other beasts slaughtered in the early days of the epidemic farmers did not receive adequate compensation in relation to what has happened since.
    Mr. Mackie: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that the situation is improving. I repeat that there is no room for complacency yet, although we are glad that there has been this big drop in the number of cases. We cannot pay replacement value. We are carefully considering the question of the difference between the compensation paid now and that which was paid at the beginning of the outbreak.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: As to the origin of this terrible disease, has my hon. Friend had any help from the Micro-Biological Institute at Porton, which is apparently engaged upon the study of this matter?
    Mr. Mackie: My hon. Friend can take it for granted that the Pirbright Institute will be seeking help from anywhere it can get it in this very serious epidemic.
    Mr. Godber: Can I come back and press the Parliamentary Secretary on one important point which I made earlier, and which I think he overlooked, about the setting up of the independent inquiry?
    Mr. Mackie: I am sorry that I did not answer this earlier. This matter is in hand and will be done at a very early date.
    Mr. More: In view of the enormous number of problems to which this outbreak has given rise, will die Joint Parliamentary Secretary undertake that, before the terms of reference of the independent committee of inquiry are settled, there will be the fullest consultation with all interested bodies—the National Farmers' Union, the Country Landowners' Association, the National Union of Agricultural Workers, local authorities, the police, and all others involved?
    Mr. Mackie: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will take all that into consideration.
    Mr. Biffenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proposals he has to extend the ban on

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    meat imported from countries with a record of endemic foot-and-mouth disease.
    Mr. James Davidsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now take steps to ban the import of meat from all countries where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic.
    Sir Clive Bossomasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he will announce the extension of the three-months meat import ban, as the present uncertainty about the future is causing concern amongst the farming community.
    Mr. John Mackie: As my right hon. Friend announced on 4th December, the temporary suspension of imports from certain countries will be reviewed after three months if still in operation. We are aware of the importance which farmers, meat traders and others attach to this subject. The long-term question of supplies of meat from countries where foot-and-mouth disease occurs is one for the independent inquiry which will shortly be set up.
    Mr. Biffen: Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that no statement that could come from his Ministry could do more to reassure the morale of farmers in areas affected by foot-and-mouth disease than the assertion that the ban on imports of meats from countries with an endemic record of foot-and-mouth disease will continue at least until the findings of the committee of inquiry are known.
    Mr. Mackie: I reiterate that my right hon. Friend made it quite clear that this was a temporary measure until the emergency was under control. At the end of three months, the decision will be reviewed. The ban will not be continued if the emergency is over at that time.
    Mr. Davidson: I endorse the views which have been expressed from this side of the House. What percentage of Britain's meat imports comes from countries where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic?
    Mr. Mackie: Speaking off the cuff, about 11 per cent.
    Sir Clive Bossom: Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that not only the breed societies but the entire farming community is deeply worried? He has not even assured the House yet that there will be an extension of the ban until after the judicial inquiry is completed and has reported.
    Mr. Mackie: I have made it clear that there will be an extension of the ban only if the emergency is not over. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] This was the promise my right hon. Friend made. Hon. Members opposite proclaim their anxiety that the Government should keep their promises, and this is one that we intend to keep. Should any other situation arise, my right hon. Friend will naturally consider it.
    Mr. Stodart: Is not the object of the ban to ensure in the long run that we do not get foot-and-mouth disease from imported meat again, if that circumstantial evidence is correct? In view of the very strong circumstantial evidence which exists in regard to Ireland and America, is three months the slightest use for this? Ought it not to be three years at least?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Mackie: That was a rhetorical question. My right hon. Friend decided at the time that the ban should be for three months. If it turns out that, because of emergencies, a longer ban is required, the decision will be reviewed. In the years before we took office there were many outbreaks and many opportunities—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am merely answering in the tone in which the hon. Gentleman asked his supplementary question. The Conservative Government did not take action on this matter. It is a difficult question. The Gowers Committee, which was appointed by the Conservative Government, suggested that this course might be followed, but the Conservative Government took no action, because I believe that right hon. and hon. Members opposite realised, when they were in power, the very great difficulties which exist in the matter of our meat supplies from these countries.
    Mr. Grant-Ferris: Does not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary realise that the whole agricultural community, not only the 700 farmers in my constituency who

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    have lost their herds, believe that this ban for three months is utterly futile and that, unless it is imposed for at least three years so that a proper test can be made, it would be almost better if the ban had never been imposed? Can the hon. Gentleman give a reasonable undertaking now that the most sympathetic consideration will be given to the imposition of a ban to last for at least three years?
    Mr. Mackie: No hon. Member opposite needs to tell my right hon. Friend or myself of the feelings of the farming community or about the tragedy of the situation which has existed for the last three months. I assure the House that we will do everything possible to control this disease. Hon. Members opposite must appreciate the very great difficulties that there are in carrying out the policy which they would like to see operated.
    Mr. Godber: We must press the Joint Parliamentary Secretary further, because his answers have been unsatisfactory. There can have been no possible point in imposing the ban if it is not to be retained until the position is clarified. This is the very least that can be done. The hon. Gentleman charged the Government of which I was a member with having taken no action. It is illogical to take action if the action is not to be carried through. The Minister has promised to set up an independent inquiry. Cannot the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that no meat will be allowed in until the committee of inquiry has reported?
    Mr. Mackie: I reiterate that in the interim period I cannot give that undertaking.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Does the Joint Parliamentary Secretary realise the widespread concern which exists about the very high prices of meat, notably beef, in butchers' shops? Will he make it clear that these high prices are in no way related to the estoppel of imports from the Argentine "but are due to Government policy, to their failure to give sufficient encouragement to increasing beef production in Britain?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That does not arise on this Question. Question No. 4.
    Mr. Monro: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory
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    nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Allasonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will reconsider his decision to permit the sale of Argentine chilled beef in the London area, in view of the lack of control over the disposal of bones with consequent dangers of spreading foot-and-mouth disease.
    Mr. John Mackie: All supplies of chilled beef in transit but not yet arrived when the temporary suspension of imports was announced on 4th December have by now been distributed. As regards the disposal of waste material, I would like to take the opportunity to remind all concerned that the Diseases of Animals (Waste Foods) Order, 1957, requires all waste food to be boiled for one hour before animals are allowed access to it.
    Mr. Allason: Does not the mere distribution of this beef ensure that bones will end up on rubbish dumps? Can the Joint Parliamentary Secretary give a categorical assurance that there is no danger of the spread of foot-and-mouth disease as a result of bones coming on to those rubbish heaps? If the hon. Gentleman cannot give such an assurance, has he not been taking grave risks of the spread of foot-and-mouth disease in the Home Counties?
    Mr. Mackie: The hon Gentleman will appreciate the size of the urban conurbation with which we are dealing at the moment. Local authorities are very well aware of the need not to dispose of this waste food in areas where it can be got at by animals. I am sure that most local authorities accept this responsibility and do their best to see that animals cannot get access to this waste food, by bulldozing the loads after they are tipped.
    Mr. Hazell: Is my hon. Friend sure that adequate steps are taken to ensure that the boiling is undertaken within a period of not less than one hour?
    Mr. Mackie: Enforcement of any law is very difficult, of course, but if my hon. Friend has any indication that this is not being carried out and will report such cases to us, we will take action.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps his Department are taking to ensure that mechanical diggers, used to bury animals slaughtered owing to foot-and-mouth disease, do not come on to public roads before their wheels are washed and disinfected.
    Mr. John Mackie: Mechanical diggers used to bury animals slaughtered on account of foot-and-mouth disease are thoroughly cleansed with pressure hoses and then disinfected under supervision before they are allowed to leave the premises. Particular attention is paid to the undercarriage and tyres.
    Mr. Digby: Is the Minister aware that a constituent of mine who visited the infected area in a professional capacity reported to me that this was not being done? Is not that highly dangerous?
    Mr. Mackie: I am very much worried that the hon. Gentleman knows of a case like that. I should like him to report it to us and then we shall certainly take action.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Is the Minister aware that there is some disquiet that people operating the bulldozers and like equipment are not being satisfactorily disinfected, and whilst on the job are going out to local villages, carrying the infection with them? Will he look into that? I have had grave reports from Derbyshire and elsewhere.
    Mr. Mackie: We have had such reports before and I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing them to our attention again. We are looking into this.
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on his current plans for the restoration of agriculture in areas devastated by foot-and-mouth disease.
    Sir A. V. Harveyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what special aid is to be given to dairy farmers who have suffered foot-and-mouth disease in their herds to reestablish their milking herds.
    Mr. Hoosonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the hardship experienced by small farmers, due to lack of income
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    following the slaughter of their animals, due to foot-and-mouth disease, he will consider giving special help in cases of established hardship.
    Mr. John Mackie: My right hon. Friend has recently written to all farmers whose stock has been slaughtered as a result of foot-and-mouth disease enclosing a leaflet describing what we are doing to help them. I am sending copies of this leaflet to the hon. Members.
    We are keeping in close touch with the National Farmers' Union about any further action that may be needed, but I cannot say any more at present.
    Sir G. Sinclair: But are these plans sufficient to get these rich agricultural areas back into full production at a time when the yield of every acre can contribute to import saving?
    Mr. Mackie: We have redeployed the Advisory Service to these areas, given a £10 per acre ploughing grant, encouraged improvement schemes, helped with a few instalments of grant under improvement schemes, been in touch with banks and other credit institutions, cooperated with the N.F.U. on restocking and have other plans ahead. What more would the hon. Gentleman like?
    Mr. Grant-Ferris: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that unless farmers in the foot-and-mouth areas reach a satisfactory arrangement over their valuations and Income Tax with Her Majesty's Government, they just will not have any money at all to do any restocking of their farms?
    Mr. Mackie: We have found that the Treasury and the taxation people have been very co-operative in these cases.

    New Zealand Mutton and Lamb
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what changes have taken place in the wholesale price of New Zealand mutton and lamb since devaluation.
    Mr. Hoy: The wholesale price of New Zealand lamb on Smithfield has risen by about 5d. per lb. since mid-November. This, however, is primarily because the wholesale prices of all meats, whether imported or home-produced, fluctuate with changes in supply and demand.

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    Moreover, this period spans the normal change to seasonally dearer supplies from the first New Zealand spring killings.
    Mr. Gardner: Although it is accepted that as a result of devaluation there will be increases in food prices, will my hon. Friend accept that many people cannot understand why there are increases in the price of supplies coming from countries which have devalued to a greater extent than we devalued? Firm Government action to control prices would receive warm acceptance in the country.
    Mr. Hoy: We do our very best and have many meetings with all concerned. It would be wrong to assume that, because New Zealand devalued by a higher percentage than we did, its lamb automatically becomes cheaper. That is not a price fixed by the exporter but a market-determined price. We do our best to keep prices down.

    Meat (Prices and Supplies)
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the effect on meat prices of the ban on imports from Argentina.
    Mr. Staintonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of the effect of foot-and-mouth disease and the associated curtailment of meat imports on the availability and prices of meat in the shops; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hoy: Total carcase meat supplies, particularly of beef, have been reduced because of import restrictions and difficulties in marketing and transporting stock in this country. But I cannot isolate the effect on supplies and prices of any single factor.
    Retail prices inevitably increased following the rise since November in auction and wholesale prices, but many wholesale prices have fallen in the last fortnight and I expect this to be reflected in the shops.
    Mr. Gardner: While fully agreeing that this ban has had to be imposed during the present emergency, may I ask whether my hon. Friend will accept that its continuance will have severe effects on the poorest section of the community who tend to buy this cheaper meat? Will he
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    give an assurance that whatever other pressures may be put upon him either from hon. Members opposite or from the industry generally, he will finally make up his mind about the continuation of the ban on the evidence and not as a result of pressure or for other reasons?
    Mr. Hoy: My hon. Friend can have this assurance, that we consider every factor concerned. This is one of the matters which have got to be considered. We also have to consider the consumer as well as everybody else. This brings out one of the difficulties with which my hon. Friend dealt in replying to a previous Question.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the failure of the Government to produce a policy which would give real inducements to fanners to raise more beef during the last three years is the real cause today of high prices in the shops—not the estoppel of imports of meat from the Argentine?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. If he will look back at the last Annual Price Review he will see the considerable encouragement that the Government gave to the industry to produce more beef. There is no substance at all in the allegations that he made.

    Food Prices
    Mr. Juddasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on food price increases since devaluation.
    Mr. Staintonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in the light of developments since November, he will make a statement as to the effect on food prices of devaluation and related Government measures.
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the percentage increase in food prices since 18th November, 1967; what proportion of this he attributes to devaluation and to other factors, respectively; and by what criteria he allows prices to rise.
    Mr. Hoy: We estimate that food prices have risen by about 3 per cent, since devaluation. Much of this rise is due to the normal seasonal increases at this time of the year and to the effects of the

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    foot-and-mouth epidemic on the price of meat. There are too many factors affecting the price of food for us to estimate at all accurately the future effects of devaluation and related measures.
    The criteria for price increases are set out in the White Paper on Prices and Incomes Policy after 30th June, 1967.
    Mr. Judd: Will my hon. Friend not agree that in the difficult year ahead the success of the Government's economic policies will depend largely upon a demonstrably effective policy in controlling food price increases?
    Mr. Hoy: Oh, yes, indeed. That is why we have the warning system. I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that we regard this as a very important matter and we do our very best.
    Mr. Peter Mills: Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary agree that many of these increases are directly attributable to Government legislation? Does it not seem very strange that the Prime Minister should make statements on television about the value of the £ knowing only too well the effect of the legislation and actions that he has taken to cause this tremendous rise in prices?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman may not have heard the first part of my Answer. I said that there were many seasonal factors involved in these increases. Of course, there are certain other actions which tend to put prices up—I do not deny this for a moment—but it is our job to see that they are kept as low as possible.
    Mr. Fortescue: Is it part of the Government's post-devaluation policy to allow food prices to rise in order to mop up surplus purchasing power?
    Mr. Hoy: No, I said nothing of the kind. That is not the policy. What I said was that we would attempt to substitute home production for what we are presently importing.

    Protein Feedingstuffs (Flour Waste)
    Dr. David Kerrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will institute a cost/benefit study of the feeding to livestock of protein foodstuffs derived from flour waste
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    by the new method, details of which have been sent to him.
    Mr. John Mackie: This work is being undertaken by an independent company who are carrying out exhaustive tests. Our scientists work closely and continuously with the Agricultural Research Council on the evaluation of all feeding-stuffs. We have arranged for them to discuss developments further with scientists of the company concerned.
    Dr. Kerr: While thanking my hon. Friend for that helpful reply, may I ask him to assure us that the protein shortage is regarded by his Ministry as a problem of world magnitude needing the most urgent prosecution in its solution? Will he also assure the House that he is in touch with his colleague the Minister of Overseas Development, in view of the relevance of this research to overseas territories which are even shorter of protein than we are here?
    Mr. Mackie: I can assure the House on those two points.

    Price Review
    Mr. Monroasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he will publish the 1968 Price Review White Paper.
    Mr. Stodartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the earliest date on which the outcome of the February Price Review has been announced since the 1947 Act was passed.
    Mr. Bakerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what administrative machinery is involved in the publication of the Annual Price Review White Paper; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hawkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will give an assurance that the date of publication of the Annual Price Review White Paper will be the earliest in the year since 1945.
    Mr. Awdryasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the earliest date in the year since 1945 on which the Annual Price Review White Paper has been published.
    Sit Frank Pearsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what special measures he has taken to bring forward the Annual Price Review White Paper at the earliest date.
    Mr. Loveysasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has now completed the technical discussions in advance of the 1968 Price Review.
    Mr. Joplingasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the earliest date on which he will be able to present the Annual Farm Price Review.
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he will announce the results of his 1968 Price Review.
    Mr. John Mackie: The farmers' representatives and my right hon. Friend consider it particularly important this year that full and accurate data should be available for the Review. Technical discussions on the data with the farmers' unions have already been completed and my right hon. Friend will be advancing subsequent stages of the Review aiming to publish the White Paper on 6th March. This will be four days earlier than the previous earliest dates of publication which were in 1955 and 1960. Comprehensive discussions with the farmers' representatives take place before the Government make their decisions. The arrangements for publication are the same as for other White Papers.
    Mr. Monro: Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that if agriculture is to play its part this year in helping to solve our economic crisis, a full statement of the future of agriculture must be made immediately and not in some weeks' time?
    Mr. Mackie: My right hon. Friend has already made several statements, as the hon. Gentleman knows, particularly on meat and cereals, which give farmers the assurance that they require. I noticed some jeers when I mentioned the dates of publication in 1955 and 1960. These were the two previous earliest dates. March 6th is at least 10 days earlier than usual.
    Mr. Stodart: The hon. Gentleman seems pleased at beating the record by
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    four days only. Is this not the most deplorable exhibition of complacency that we have seen for a long time? If there is an urgency for food production, let him get a stir on.
    Mr. Manuel: What a shocker you are!
    Mr. Mackie: I would almost agree with my hon. Friend. I was simply stating a fact. I was not being complacent. I made the point in answer to the long list of Questions, and I stated what we were doing. I said that the representatives of the various N.F.U.s considered it particularly important this year that full and accurate data should be available in the review. The hon. Gentleman knows that this cannot be done in a few weeks.
    Mr. Baker: As the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend has been under pressure about this for a good many months, can he tell the House why the February Price Review cannot be produced in February this year?
    Mr. Mackie: As I have just explained to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart), we have to get all the figures properly worked out and agreed with the N.F.U. beforehand; the N.F.U. insists on this. I can appreciate the row which there would be from hon. Members opposite if we did not do this correctly.
    Mr. Loveys: Although it is vitally necessary to have as early a Price Review as possible, should not this particular one include a longer-term policy statement concerning the part which agriculture could play to help to get the Government out of their difficulties and to give greater and much needed confidence to the industry?
    Mr. Mackie: That is a different question altogether, but I would point out that we have given longer term assurances on beef, cereals and pigs than have ever been given before.
    Mr. Jopling: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this is no ordinary year? The Prime Minister made an announcement in his devaluation broadcast of special new incentives for the agriculture industry. Does not this show that the whole system of the Price Review negotiations, particularly the primary ones, is much too cumbersome and needs

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    very urgent review so that in a case like this it can be brought forward much earlier than is being done this year?
    Mr. Mackie: That is definitely a different question altogether.
    Mr. Dan Jones: With due respect to politicians, can my hon. Friend tell us whether the farmers have requested that this Price Review should be published earlier than February? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Let the Minister answer.
    Mr. Mackie: No.
    Mr. Godber: Again, I must press the hon. Gentleman further on this matter. What he has said is quite deplorable. Is he not aware that I asked for a clear statement from the Minister before Christmas? The statements which we had then gave no clarity and showed no drive at all. Is he not further aware that the Prime Minister talked about import saving, but without definite targets and definite incentives the agricultural community cannot provide the sinews which they undoubtedly could provide, given the necessary drive and incentive. Would the hon. Gentleman look at this matter again? This is a quite deplorable decision.
    Mr. Mackie: When I referred to "farmers", as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the people with whom we deal in our discussions are the representatives of the N.F.U.s in the three countries concerned. There may be many farmers, at the instigation probably of some hon. Members opposite, shouting for something to be done, but the responsible body, the N.F.U., knows perfectly well that this cannot be rushed, and we are not going to rush it because of any political pressures.
    Sir D. Renton: Is not the main trouble the fact that devaluation has undermined the minimum import prices at present running, and is it not essential that those prices should be reviewed so as to make the system of minimum import prices effective once more? Therefore, is there not an urgent need to get the Price Review over and done with?
    Mr. Mackie: There are completely different negotiations on minimum import prices from the negotiations in connection with the Price Review.
    Mr. Manuel: Would my hon. Friend agree that in the 1968 Annual Price Review the general tendency in the country for land-owning interests to increase tenant farmers' rents will be clearly illustrated?
    Mr. Mackie: Increases in rents are one of the costs which are always taken into account in the Review.
    Mr. Monro: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Agricultural Imports
    Mr. Monroasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he will take to introduce import control of agricultural produce.
    Mr. Kitsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now introduce a general policy of restrictions on agricultural imports.
    Mr. Hoy: Many factors need to be taken into account in considering whether it would be in the country's interests to regulate imports of agricultural products. These naturally vary according to the product concerned. If in any particular case action affecting imports seems appropriate, bearing in mind our international obligations and general commercial policy, I would certainly not exclude the possibility.
    Mr. Monro: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that we will never increase our share of the market while we are flooded by imports of foodstuffs from temperate climates which we could well produce ourselves?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman knows that we are under some control because of the agreements which we have entered into with other countries. I remind him that these agreements were entered into by the Government of which he was a member.
    Mr. Kitson: Would the hon. Gentleman explain how there can be increases for our farmers in the home market without levies—or is there to be a substantial increase in our deficiency payments?
    Mr. Hoy: What the Minister said was that there would be an expanding market, and that we would expect our home industry to fulfil the major portion of that expansion. Let me remind the House that we took action on one or two products so that they did not affect the price of the home-produced article.
    Miss Herbison: In whatever decisions are reached, will my hon. Friend ensure chat the position of the low-wage earner and those living on small fixed incomes is protected?
    Mr. Hoy: As my right hon. Friend has said, one has always to take into account the effect of prices on the lower paid sections of the community. Therefore, what we intend to do in reaching these settlements is to be fair to all concerned, producer and consumer alike, but to remember that there is a consumer point of view.
    Mr. J. E. B. Hill: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the statement of the Minister which he quoted was a pre-develauation statement in relation to the National Plan? Surely, after devaluation, if we are to become more self-sufficient, as the Prime Minister has said, he must review his whole policy of import control.
    Mr. Hoy: We are continually looking at the whole problem. As I said, and I hope clearly, we hope that by far the greater proportion of what we need can be supplied from home production.
    Mr. Gardner: While welcoming any measures which the Minister may take to increase home food production and to help farmers generally, may I ask my hon. Friend to be a litle careful about the question of import controls, bearing in mind the dangerous air of protection in the world at the moment, which I am sure he would not want to see increased?
    Mr. Hoy: As I explained to my hon. Friend, this is one of the points one has to consider. This is why it is not always a simple or easy decision. I am sure that all Governments have found this. There are so many factors to be taken into consideration before decisions can be made.

    Fishing Industry
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the review of the fishing industry.
    Mr. Hoy: We are considering the outcome of the review and we will make a statement as soon as possible.
    Mr. Wall: The hon. Gentleman will recall that undertakings were given that this review, which was started three years ago, would be completed by the end of last year. Could he say whether, when it is completed, it will be published as a White Paper or in some other form?
    Mr. Hoy: It is true that there has been some little delay. Devaluation plays a part in it. I cannot anticipate when the statement will be made. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a Departmental inquiry took place. I should not like to say anything about publication. I give him the assurance that the statement will be made as soon as possible.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: In the forthcoming review, will my hon. Friend have regard to the fact that two matters which urgently require attention are, first, difficulties in transporting fish from North-East Scotland to the large consuming centres of the South, and, secondly, protection of the North Sea fishing fleets from foreign marauders?
    Mr. Hoy: Obviously, transport charges are always important in this and every other industry and must be considered. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am grateful for hon. Members' agreement. Secondly, we take action to protect our home-based fishing fleet. My hon. and learned Friend can be assured that action necessary to protect our fishermen is being taken.
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what measures he is taking to assist the fishing industry in its present difficulties.
    Mr. Hoy: We hope to announce shortly the special subsidies payable for the six months commencing on 1st February.
    Mr. Wall: Why has the Minister not used the supplementary grants, which he

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    has under his own hand, to help the fishing industry in the very difficult period it has experienced in recent months?
    Mr. Hoy: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have paid out some, and about £350,000 is still left. It is always a question of how it shall be apportioned; sometimes the industry does not agree how it should be done. But we hope to make a decision very soon.
    Mr. James Johnson: Will my hon. Friend accept that the inshore fishing fleet has had a good year, but that we feel that the deep sea fishing fleet has had a bad year? That goes for vessel owners and men—deck hands—alike. Would he please pay attention to that and look more frequently at the question of the future of the deep sea fishing industry?
    Mr. Hoy: That has been looked at in connection with the review. We are well aware that the deep water fleet has not had a good year, and we take that into account when we consider what share the industry will get of the moneys which are still available.
    Mr. Prior: Is the Minister aware that morale in the industry is very low at present and that an urgent statement of Government policy is what the industry needs?
    Mr. Hoy: I do not think that we should exaggerate. I know that certain portions of the fleet are not in good condition. Certainly the deep water fleet has had a difficult time, but we must consider this against the background of the previous legislation, which ruled that all subsidies would run out by 1972. We must consider the whole problem. Our decision might involve changes, and it must be reached carefully.
    Mr. McNamara: In considering the supplementary subsidy will my hon. Friend look closely at the deep water fleet? In Hull at present 496 deep sea fishermen are unemployed, and even allowing for seasonal factors and over-Christmas cruises that is far too high.
    Mr. Hoy: Yes, indeed. I think so too, and that is exactly what we are looking at. It is sometimes a little troublesome when very large firms are involved, but in particular sectors of the industry in which they operate they can be in
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    trouble, and this is what we are looking at.
    Mr. Baker: Does the Minister agree that his assertion that the inshore fishing fleet had a good year is a relative matter, and is not entirely the case throughout the country? Unless more visible help is given to the inshore industry it will become increasingly difficult to recruit young people into the fishing fleet.
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman is mistaken. I did not say that the inshore fleet had a good year. It was my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) who said that. But on the whole the inshore fleet has had a fairly good year. [Interruption.] I do not mind saying it. All I said was that it was asserted that I had said it earlier, when I had not. I realise that there are difficulties in all parts, and I want to look at them.

    Home-Grown Timber
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to promote the use of available home-grown timber, in view of the need to save on imports, which cost about £500 million a year for timber and timber products before devaluation increased the cost in terms of foreign currency.
    Mr. John Mackie: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said on 11th December, devaluation should help to make the prices of homegrown timber more competitive with those of imported timber. I hope that the industry will take full advantage of the opportunities which this presents.
    Mr. Digby: Does the Minister realise that there is immense scope for saving imports here, mostly from countries that have a very unfavourable balance of trade with us? Will he initiate action to try to get positive results in import-saving?
    Mr. Mackie: The Forestry Commission appreciates this point. Less than 10 per cent. of our home-grown timber can be used for this purpose, which is not an immense saving. The state of our forests at present does not lend itself to much quick cutting, but we appreciate the worth of home-grown timber, as

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    shown by the Fort William Mills, the new mill at Workington and so on. We are giving considerable encouragement.
    Mr. Manuel: Will my hon. Friend use his good offices with the Post Office to see that much more home-grown timber is used for its requirements? I understand that a large amount of the timber it uses is imported.
    Mr. Mackie: If home-grown timber can supply the needs of the Post Office I shall take up my hon. Friend's point.
    Mr. Stodart: Is the Minister aware of the great urgency that has developed since the Question was put down as a result of the gale which swept Scotland last week? Will he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland co-operate urgently to beseech the National Coal Board to cut down all its imports and to take blown timber if it meets the necessary specifications?
    Mr. Mackie: I shall do that. If I remember rightly, that was done after the great "blow" of 1953.

    Beef Production (Dairy Herd)
    Mr. Buchanan-Smithasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what contribution to home beef production he expects from the dairy herd in 1968.
    Mr. Hoy: I expect that some 70 per cent. of the beef produced from homebred animals in 1968 will come from the dairy herd.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Would not the best encouragement to dairy farmers to produce more meat be to give them more opportunity at the same time to replace some of the vast quantities of imported dairy produce?
    Mr. Hoy: That is a matter of opinion. I was replying to the hon. Gentleman's question by giving the figure he sought.

    Agricultural Production
    Mr. Buchanan-Smithasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will increase the standard quantity for pigs, in view of the need to expand home food production as a result of devaluation.
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on his consultations with the agricultural industry on their expansionist rôle following devaluation.
    Mr. Joplingasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will increase the targets of his selective expansion programme, in view of the need for greater import saving, consequent on devaluation.
    Mr. Brewisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of the contribution to import saving that can be made by the hill-farming industry.
    Mr. John Mackie: The contribution of the agricultural industry to the national economy in the new situation following devaluation is one of the important questions which we shall be discussing with the Farmers' Unions at the Annual Review, and I cannot say more until we have done so.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: If the Minister is genuinely serious about increasing home food production—and some of the replies this afternoon give rise to many doubts about that—would not it be right to raise or even abolish the standard quantity for pigs, so that the present welcome rise in the pig herd can be maintained in the national interest?
    Mr. Mackie: The hon. Gentleman should look at the figures before asking a question like that. At present farmers must have 1,200,000 pigs before they go off the plateau of the middle band. Let us get that 1,200,000 and then we shall look at the standard quantity.
    Mr. Prior: Is the Minister aware that the one factor which would give more confidence to agriculture than any other on grounds of expansion would be to get rid of the standard quantities?
    Mr. Mackie: No, Sir. I do not think so. I do not want to bore the House with figures, but I ask the two hon. Gentlemen to compare our record on standard quantities and that of their Government in the years before.
    Mr. Jopling: In view of the Prime Minister's devaluation broadcast will the

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    Minister give an assurance that some of the selective expansion programme targets will be increased?
    Mr. Mackie: We are naturally looking at that point very closely with the N.F.U. at present.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Does not the Minister agree that it must be nonsense to fine farmers for over-production of pig products when we are not even meeting our quota under the Anglo-Danish bacon agreement?
    Mr. Mackie: The hon. Gentleman did not listen to my previous reply. Farmers have 1,200,000 pigs to produce before they are, as the hon. Gentleman says, fined by a reduction of the price under the flexible guarantee. As I said to the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends, let us produce those 1,200,000 pigs first and then talk about it.

    Livestock Commission and Central Council for Agricultural and Horticultural Co-operation
    Mr. Stodartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food where the heaquarters of the Meat and Livestock Commission and of the Central Council for Agricultural and Horticultural Co-operation are to be.
    Mr. John Mackie: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. Friend are considering in consultation with the Meat and Livestock Commission, a number of possible locations for their heaquarters. No decision has yet been taken. They and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department have agreed that the headquarters of the Central Council for Agricultural and Horticultural Cooperation should be in London and they moved into their permanent offices at Vincent Square, S.W.1, on 1st January.
    Mr. Stodart: Could the hon. Gentleman at least deny that it is not almost fixed that the Meat Commission is to set up in Buckinghamshire? Will not this be a deplorable decision? As 150 to 250 people are to be employed at the headquarters, would this not be an admirable Government agency for either Perth or Aberdeen, and have great efforts been made to achieve this?
    Mr. Mackie: It is up to the Commission itself. I do not deny what the hon.
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    Gentleman says. At the moment the Commission is operating from the P.I.D.A. headquarters in London and is co-operating with us in looking for headquarters all over the country for running the Meat Commission.
    Mr. MacArthur: Can the hon. Gentle man give an assurance that the headquarters of the Commission will not be in London? Will he make sure that the headquarters is established in a meat-producing area and look very favourably upon Scotland, and in particular Perth, where adequate buildings at present stand?
    Mr. Mackie: I am sorry that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any hard and fast guarantee about where the headquarters will be. The Commission is looking at all areas.

    Food Imports
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his current estimate of the value of all food imports in 1968.
    Mr. Hoy: I regret that this information is not available for publication.
    Sir G. Sinclair: Is not this deplorable at a time when we are trying to save foreign exchange by producing more at home? Is it not time that the Government turned to a system of import levies and encouraged farmers to produce more home-grown products?
    Mr. Hoy: It has never been considered in the public interest to publish detailed forecasts of the United Kingdom balance of payments or of components of it.
    Mr. Godber: Is it not amazing that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary should be unable to give any indication in regard to this question after what the Prime Minister has said about imports substitution? Is it not essential that we should get a clear indication of what the trends are and then real and effective action to stimulate increased home production, which is what is needed to help both British agriculture and the British balance of payments?
    Mr. Hoy: I can only repeat what I said in reply to the first supplementary question. The right hon. Gentleman

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    knows that these figures are never published because it is not in the country's interest.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has not the time come for a package deal for the farmer so that every farmer who increases productivity gets a decrease in rent?
    Mr. Hoy: I think that my hon. Friend had better put that to right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the percentage increase in all our imported food due to devaluation.
    Mr. Hoy: Prices of many imported foods have increased since devaluation. Many factors have contributed to this, for example the repercussions of the foot-and-mouth epidemic, and in view of the unsettled state of the market it is not possible to isolate the effect of devaluation alone.
    Mr. Farr: Is not this another deplorable case where the Minister is obviously quite unaware of what has happened since devaluation? Surely the House will agree that these are figures about which the Government should have known before the devaluation decision was taken?
    Mr. Hoy: What I said was that many factors have contributed and that it was not possible to isolate the devaluation one alone.

    Road Taxation (Food Prices)
    Mr. Peter Millsasked die Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of the percentage increase in food prices due to the increased road taxation proposals.
    Mr. John Mackie: For all goods, the charge would amount to only a fraction of 1 per cent, of the delivered prices. It is not possible to estimate what the effects might be on retail food prices.
    Mr. Mills: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Transport Bill, in spite of what he says, will cause quite unnecessary increases in the price of food? Will he also bear in mind that in my opinion this is the most ridiculous piece of legislation that has ever come
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    before the House, and will he ask the Minister of Transport to withdraw it?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Mackie: I think that the answer to that would just be, "No, Sir".
    Mr. John Wells: In the Answer that the hon. Gentleman gave, was he taking account of the probable increase in the prices of horticultural produce, which will go up very considerably as a result of the measures contaned in the Transport Bill?
    Mr. Mackie: It includes all food prices.

    Home-grown Barley (Feedingstuffs)
    Mr. Kitsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has made to encourage substitution of maize and other imported grain by home-grown barley in feedingstuffs.
    Mr. Hoy: Animal feed manufacturers have promised to use the maximum quantity of home-grown wheat and barley. This should be facilitated by devaluation which has made imported grain relatively more expensive than home-grown grain.
    Mr. Kitson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is not happening? Will he alter the minimum price for maize to encourage merchants to use more home-grown barley?
    Mr. Hoy: The maize price has gone up by £4 per ton since devaluation and barley and wheat prices have gone up by only 30s. to 45s. per ton respectively, which should give them a distinct advantage.

    Standard Quantities
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on future policy regarding standard quantities.
    Mr. John Mackie: We shall be looking at standard quantities at the Annual Review. I cannot anticipate the outcome.
    Mr. Prior: With regard to last week's Government White Paper showing no increase in expenditure on agriculture, how

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    are we to get the expansion that agriculture is entitled to have and that the Prime Minister has promised it without an increase in Government expenditure?
    Mr. Mackie: The figures to which the hon. Gentleman refers are figures which show that there will be no cut.

    Feedingstuffs (Cost)
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what will be the additional cost to manufacturers of animal feedingstuffs due to devaluation; and what steps he is taking to offset these rises to farmers.
    Mr. Hoy: With a few exceptions, the offering price from abroad for imported feedingstuffs has increased by about one-sixth since devaluation, while the price of domestic grain has risen by some 30s. to 45s. per ton. The guaranteed prices for pigs and eggs are automatically adjusted to compensate for changes in feed costs and all other cost changes are taken into account at the Annual Review, together with all other relevant factors.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does not this show how vitally urgent it is to advance the Annual Price Review? The one commodity that is not included in automatic price increases is beef. Therefore, does that not add one more argument in support of the suggestion that the Annual Price Review should be brought forward into February?
    Mr. Hoy: I cannot add to what my hon. Friend said earlier about this. There are certain figures which can become available only at a certain time. Both National Fanners' Unions rightly insist that the figures should be available before discussions take place and decisions are made. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman, who knows a great deal about the Department, would want us to go back on the agreements with the National Farmers' Unions.

    Beef (Delivery Payments)
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will revise the seasonal scale of payment of delivery payments for beef in order to give a substantial rise
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    and thereby encourage beef production in 1969–70.
    Mr. Hoy: I have nothing to add to the statement my right hon. Friend made on 21st December. 1967.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: This is another sector which the Minister has said he wished to encourage and in which the Prime Minister had said that he wished to encourage production. Beef production is vital to this country. Will the hon. Gentleman do what he can to give some form of confidence in the future to beef producers, as soon as possible and not wait until 6th March?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman will agree that similar assistance was given at the Price Review and that certain assurances have been given since. As he knows, the Price Review is now in process. This is obviously a matter of great importance which will be taken into account, but I am certain that both sides will want to arrive at a settlement which is fair to both sides and the community generally.
    Mr. Godber: Does not the Parliamentary Secretary accept that the expansion of been production has been the Government's one long-term plan for agriculture ever since the National Plan came out? Last year's Price Review White Paper showed that it had been completely inadequate up to that time. Since then we have had devaluation, which has made imported beef more expensive, and foot-and-mouth disease, which has increased the shortage. Surely something more positive than was indicated by the Minister's statement of December must be done.
    Mr. Hoy: Certain statements have been made and certain action taken, as the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well. When the last Price Review was agreed, substantial assistance was given in this direction. Neither we nor the right hon. Gentleman could have foreseen the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease and surely he would not seek to blame any Government for that. These things must be taken into account when the Price Review takes place and I have no doubt that the N.F.U.s will not have overlooked it.

FEUDUTIES, MULTURES AND LONG LEASES (SCOTLAND)
3.30 p.m.
Mr. James Davidson: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to invalidate any future feu charters or multures; to enable superiors, vassals, etc., to require the redemption of existing feu duties, etc., and to require local authorities to provide loans in certain circumstances for this purpose; to authorise compensation on termination of long leases; to modify or alter feudal and similar conditions; to enable allocation of feu duty to be required; and for purposes connected therewith.
In asking the leave of the House to bring in the Bill, I remind hon. Members that this is the second occasion within a year that I have sought their leave to do so. Today, I do not intend to go into any great detail about the precise form and purpose of my Bill. With one or two minor modifications, it will be the same as that which was printed on 13th June, 1967. Its purpose is self-evident from its title—the elimination of the feudal system, which is an anomaly in a modern society in the 20th century, and one of the main obstacles to development in Scotland.
As long ago as 1789, in France the National Assembly sought to destroy the feudal régime in its entirety. It was declared that men were born free and equal in rights and remained free and equal in rights and that the State existed to preserve the citizens' enjoyment of his rights. Yet in Scotland in 1968 we still have a feudal system which allows feudal superiority to be bought and sold over the heads of the vassals or proprietors of the land, and along with the purchase of the right to collect feu duties often goes the right to control or obstruct development regardless of any decision which may have been made by the planning authority.
It frequently happens, for example, that feudal rights over the land are sold to English-controlled companies which then have planning authority over land in Scotland. It is common to see newspaper advertisements for feu duties for sale or on behalf of clients wishing to purchase feu duties as a form of investment. Seldom is the vassal or proprietor, the individual who pays the feu duty,
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given the opportunity to redeem the feu before it is sold, and——
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is very difficult to address the House against a background of conversation.
Mr. Davidson: It has sometimes been said that the feu duty system is something peculiar to Scotland and, therefore, a matter for pride. I should like to quote from a letter published in the Scotsman of 10th March, 1967, which said:
"It is good to see Mr. James Davidson, M.P., campaigning against the feudal system. Not only are its evils obvious, but it was never immemorial, natural or universal.
It is a weed which, in the opinion of some historians, grew up in the chaos of the breakup of the Roman Empire.
The old Germans as described by Tacitus had no feudal system. It never took root in Norway, which today cherishes its ancient odel system…under which the owner of odel property had no superior over him, not even the King…
The Norwegians are thus pre-eminently, and have long been, a real property-owning democracy, and we should not allow ourselves to lag behind in that respect.
It is also of interest to note that David I's feudalising drive in Scotland is said to have met with strong though unsuccessful Celtic resistance."
It was on 4th August, 1789, that feudalism was finally abolished in France. Feudal dues and services at that time were made redeemable by purchase. All personal services, as distinct from dues on peasant properties, were abolished without compensation. What is more, no manorial dues had to be redeemed unless the landlord could show an original title to the land. How many of our feudal superiors today could show such a title?
I should like to quote from a modern feu charter presented and recorded as recently as February, 1967:
"…the said piece of ground and others hereby disposed of and under me, the said A, and my heirs and successors…as immediate lawful Superiors of the same, in feu form and heritage, for ever for payment to the Superior by the said B and his foresaids…of the sum of £8 sterling yearly…".
The feu charter goes on to say exactly what kind of house must be erected upon the land and says that the superior must approve the plans, elevations, specifications and materials, how the property should be fenced, how sanitation should be provided and, at the end of a whole

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list of restrictions, to state that the feuar cannot sell or dispose of the piece of ground
"until he shall have first made a written offer to sell the same to the Superior at the like rate or price that may be offered by any other person".
The feuar is finally wrapped up and tied down by the condition that if any restriction is broken, the land reverts to the superior. There is no mention of the superior being obliged to refund to the feuar the price paid for the land. We may well wonder whether the land really has been bought, but in legal terms the purchaser has become the proprietor. In practice, this allows the superior to hold down the value of the property by means of his private planning authority and simultaneously to retain the right to buy it back by his right of pre-emption.
Unfortunately, under the Ten Minute Rule there is no time to quote many of the letters which I have received from all over Scotland, but I should like to quote from a few in the short time at my disposal. The first comes from Glasgow and says:
"The feu duty on our 3 apartment 'Wimpey' semi-detached bungalow is fairly high (£12 per annum) but what goes against the grain is that this is paid to Woranes Investments Ltd., of 31 Hammersmith Grove, London, the local landowners, Keir & Cawder, apparently having sold the land to them."
Another comes from Edinburgh and encloses a cutting from a newspaper. The cutting says:
"Lord Bruce, the 42-year-old heir of the Elgins, is using his right of pre-emption to buy houses, shops and hotels in the Forthside village of Limekilns on his estate.
And families wanting to live in the picturesque village are objecting.
Any offer they make for a house has only to be equalled by Lord Bruce—and he automatically becomes the owner.
He uses his right of pre-emption to out-buy others. Already Lord Bruce owns two hotels, a sub-post office, general store and many houses on his estate of Broomhall.
For generations, the house owners have paid feu duty in kind."
The next letter comes from Sutherland and says:
"This feudal crime not only lingers, it flourishes. Hence all power to your elbow. I am writing as an old age pensioner with half a century of activity in the Labour movement. Alas! The majority of the Labour M.P.s have no intention of abolishing this particular crime or any other."
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Another letter, from Lanarkshire, says:
"I am writing to you regarding long leases. I live alone in a small house left to me by my father. The lease ends in 1969, and I shall be put out of the house unless I pay the current market value of the house. This I will not be able to do."
The next concerns a property in Perthshire. It says:
"The property known as 'Burbank', Strathtary, was willed to me four years ago with eleven years of the lease to run. As far as I can understand, I shall have to get out in 1974, receiving no compensation whatsoever. I have take this matter up with the Laird. His solution was to perpetuate the lease at a cost to me of £2,750 plus legal costs. As far as I can see the ground on which the house is built has no development value."
I have one from my constituency, which says that it is
"with direct reference to a Captain Farquharson of Ballater. Has it occurred to you that this same man is a member of the Deeside and District Licensing Court and should therefore have no financial interest in the granting of licences, which he so obviously has if by granting a licence to an applicant the Licensing Court are also assisting in lining the purse of the Farquharson Estate."
Although most of the letters that I have received support my Bill, not all of them do. Perhaps the most representative of the bodies opposed to the termination of the feudal system is the Scottish Landowners' Federation. I would remind the House that I am a member myself, but, just as when I was an attaché in Moscow I used to read the newspaper Pravda, I like to read the Federation's quarterly journal.
I want to read a paragraph from a letter which I received from the secretary of the Federation last March. He said:
"Obviously there must be some alternative to a straight sale of land by disposition because, generally speaking, the burdens in a disposition are only enforceable against the purchaser and do not transmit against subsequent purchasers. However the feuing system enables conditions to run with the land."
That seems to me to be the whole crux of the matter. Should there be any burdens at all, other than rates? Is not planning permission by the local authority sufficient safeguard against misuse of land or impairment of amenity? Should it be possible for a landowner to sell a bit of land on conditions that can be transmitted to the proprietor in perpetuity? If it is necessary to have an alternative to a straight sale of land by

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disposition, what is wrong with a liberal system of leasehold, provided that it ensures that the tenant receives proper compensation for any improvements when the lease runs out?
If the termination of the feudal system were to have the unfortunate result of deterring landowners from selling land for development, surely existing legislation is sufficient to overcome that difficulty. Rating by site valuation is another means of encouraging liquidity of land for development.
My Bill does not seek to deprive individuals or companies of their investments. It is an attempt to break the stranglehold of the feudal system by giving both parties to a feudal charter the right to redeem the feu, to terminate the archaic system of multures, and to ensure that tenants are entitled to full compensation if a landlord resumes the land at the expiry of a lease.
If the Government refuse to give time for my Bill——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that he is seeking to bring in his Bill under the Ten Minute Rule.
Mr. Davidson: Mr. Speaker, I have timed my speech for 10 minutes, but there were a number of interruptions when I started to speak, as I am sure you will appreciate. I will bring my remarks to a close now.
If the Government refuse to give time for my Bill, and if the life of the present Parliament draws to a close without any move on the part of the Government to terminate the feudal system, the Labour Party in Scotland will stand indicted on yet another count, and thousands of people will be disappointed, not least the shade of Robert Burns, whose birthday falls tomorrow.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. James Davidson, Mr. Russell Johnston, Mr. Alasdair Mackenzie, and Mr. David Steel.

FEUDUTIES, MULTURES AND LONG LEASES (SCOTLAND)
Bill to invalidate any future feu charters or multures; to enable superiors, vassals, etc., to require the redemption of existing fue duties, etc., and to require local authorities to provide loans in certain circumstances for this purpose; to authorise compensation on termination of long leases; to modify or alter feudal and similar conditions; to enable allocation of feu duty to be required; and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday, 26th April and to be printed. [Bill 68.]
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. So that I may have my recollection confirmed, am I not right in thinking that there is no rule of the House saying that a speech introducing a Ten Minute Rule Bill must be confined to 10 minutes? Obviously, it is right that an hon. Member should keep his remarks as short as he can, but it is the privilege of a back bench hon. Member to be able to state his case. I should not like to feel that the decision which is now enshrined in. the record that such a speech can be as long as it ought to be, and not 10 minutes, is not clearly understood.
Mr. Speaker: It has been the practice for quite a long time that hon. Members seeking to bring in Bills under the Ten Minute Rule endeavour to complete their speeches within 10 minutes. It is the duty of Mr. Speaker to call the attention of hon. Members to that practice when they stray beyond 10 minutes. I must protect the interests of the House as well as those of back bench hon. Members.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [7TH ALLOTTED DAY],—considered.
  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Varley.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that, in the economic debate last week, there was a very long list of hon. Members who desired to contribute, and you made an appeal for brevity. Despite that, there were some very long speeches. At least half a dozen hon. Members on either side were left out of the debate, having sat through the two days.
  May I suggest that, so that every hon. Member desiring to speak in this debate shall have an opportunity to do so—and I am not a potential speaker—you should say that those who speak for, say, 25 minutes, whether they be back bench hon. Members or Privy Councillors, in future will get only half the number of occasions to catch your eye as those who speak for 12 minutes, or, alternatively, those who guarantee to speak for only 10 minutes should get some priority in future?
  If you were to say this, I believe that, in the words of Dr. Johnson, it would "wonderfully concentrate the minds of offenders" in this respect.
  Mr. Speaker: I appreciate the problem which the hon. Gentleman has put to me in his point of order. I would remind hon. Members that I spoke to the House about this as late as 18th January, when I said:
  "…all the efforts of the Chair to secure a full and fair expression of varying opinion can be frustrated if hon. Members who are called take up too much of the time of the House to the exclusion of other hon. Members."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th January, 1968; Vol. 756, c. 1955.]
  However, I could not accept the remedy proposed by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke), because I can only accept directions
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  from the House on this matter. I would remind the House that the Select Committee on Procedure, in a Report which it made to the House in August, 1966, recommended that, as an experiment, there should be a limit of 15 minutes for a speech by a back bench hon. Member and that the House should invite Ministers to limit themselves to half an hour.
  But no Resolution to implement the recommendations of the Select Committee has been passed, and all that Mr. Speaker can do is to let the House know from time to time how many Members are anxious to have an opportunity to speak in an important debate and to appeal for reasonably brief speeches from those who are called.
  In accordance with my practice, I would inform the House that already I have more than 65 names for this debate, each hon. Member wishing to make an individual contribution which he regards as important.
  3.47 p.m.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Mr. Speaker, a foreign affairs debate was arranged for earlier, but, as we all know, certain events intervened and it could not take place. It was to have covered the Middle East and, I think, the Far East in particular. But now it is quite clear, after the events of last week, that the main theme of discussion must be the impact on our foreign policy of the defence cuts which were announced by the Prime Minister last week. At any rate, I intend to make that my theme.
  More than two years ago, in a foreign affairs debate of this nature, I said that if the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence allowed a rigid ceiling to be fixed for defence expenditure at 1964 prices Britain would be left without a foreign policy which was recognisable as such or credible to friend or foe. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary must know in his heart how uncomfortably near that forecast was to the facts of today.
  Of the Secretary of State for Defence and his part in all this, I am bound to say that I despair of saying anything of comfort to him or to the House. He seems incapable of recognising the damage that he has done to the reputation

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  of Britain. He does not seem able to appreciate how he is damaging the morale of those for whom he has assumed a special responsibility in the Armed Forces.
  In these circumstances, I think that most people conclude that the right hon. Gentleman is a total liability to the country in the office which he at present holds. But that is not my concern today. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary ought not to allow the foreign policy of this country to be made by any other Minister, because it is their prime responsibility. The policies announced last week must, therefore, be presumed to be I heir policies.
  We propose tomorrow night to vote against the Adjournment of the House on this particular issue, because we believe, having considered the full implications of what was said last week, that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary and the Government as a whole have been careless of British interests and have been negligent, too, of the interests of the free world of which Britain is a part.
  There is an alternative to the actions which the Government are taking. I will try to persuade the right hon. Gentleman, even at this late hour, by reasoned argument and facts, that there is an alternative policy both within Britain's purse and consistent with Britain's honour.
  In Europe, the Government's aims are reasonably defined. They are, of course, inherited policies; they are not their own. They are now driven on to the political defensive. Nevertheless, in Europe the aims of the Government are reasonably clear, but elsewhere overseas they do not seem to conform to any intelligible strategic plan or theme.
  I will give one or two illustrations to the House. The Soviet Union's Navy is in the Mediterranean at the north end of the Suez Canal. If we are to believe what is reported, there is a great possibility of their arrival as a similar presence in Aden. How could a British Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary in those circumstances put the Simonstown Agreement in jeopardy?
  I could use much more forceful language about what I consider to be the crass folly of the refusal to sell arms to South Africa for the defence of what will be Europe's main commercial high-
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  way for the carriage of oil. I will refrain from that stronger language. All I say to the right hon. Gentleman is that it is not foreign policy.
  The Foreign Secretary said last week that he had long been convinced that it was best for Britain, and, indeed, in the interests of all, that Britain should be out of the Persian Gulf. All right, that is an arguable proposition. But why did the right hon. Gentleman, on his own authority, send the Minister of State out only two months before with a positive assurance that Britain meant to stay? The Governments of the Gulf were, naturally, wary. They had heard from their friends in South Arabia about the promises given earlier by the Secretary of State for Defence. But the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs was so sincere that he carried conviction with the Rules in the Gulf. The Foreign Secretary must be aware, if he allows and authorises such vacillating actions, that this saps the influence, authority and usefulness of Britain in international affairs.
  The right hon. Gentleman declares that his purpose in the States of the Gulf and the countries of South-East Asia is that Britain shall enable them to stand on their feet. All right, that is a perfectly arguable policy. But does he consult the Governments of those countries about the kind of time scale within which they are likely to be able to do so? Recalling the Prime Minister's enthusiasm for the Commonwealth when he was in opposition, does he make use of the machinery of consultation available for the four countries of the Commonwealth in the area of South-East Asia? Did he call together Malaya, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand to consult them on any timetable which would assist them as well as enabling Britain to fulfil his objective? Not at all. He names a date for evacuation, in the case of the Gulf and South-East Asia, short enough to ensure a vacuum of power and long enough to cause the maximum political confusion. That is not foreign policy.
  Last week, the Foreign Secretary acquiesced in action—I am hopeful that the Government's timetable will slip; Government timetables are apt to slip—which could so mangle the forces of the Crown that Britain could be unable to support a commitment overseas outside

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  Europe, even though it might be decisively to our economic advantage to do so and even where, our presence is a key to political stability in the free world. That is not foreign policy. To put it quite plainly, it is a dereliction of stewardship, the like of which this country has not seen before in the conduct of foreign policy.
  There is an alternative to this defeatism, and it must be deployed before Britain's influence with friends and allies is damaged beyond repair. The first essential in the framing of foreign policy is a strategic appreciation of the broad political and military trends in the world as they affect British security and Britain as an influence for political stability in the collective alliances or outside.
  For 20 years and more since the war the West has been conducting a holding operation to prevent and to deter militant Communism from taking over the assets of the free world and from overbearing the way of life in which we and so many others believe. By a combination of will and strength that policy has been a success.
  There has been another string to the bow. The diplomacy of reconciliation is equally important and that, too, has paid its dividends. But let us recall—I have had some first-hand experience of this, particularly in the arrangements of the Laos Treaty, which has so far held—that unless Britain has some status to be present in the councils she gains no ear and exercises no authority or influence at all. I ask the House to bear that in mind.
  What, then, does the broad canvas of the political situation in the world show concerning political trends in the context of the balance of power? In Europe, the political issues of Berlin and East Germany are not settled. While they are not settled the allies have decided—Britain among them—that it is only safe if Western Europe continues to mobilise superior power. One of Lenin's most powerful doctrines, which has so far never been challenged in the Soviet Union, is that when faced with superior power the Communists should not directly challenge it, but should make their way round to achieve their objectives. The conclusion of the British
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  Government and her European allies is right and difficult to challenge. General de Gaulle has lately tried to soften the front of the Warsaw Pact with the Soviet Union and he has conspicuously failed.
  I am not opposing the right hon. Gentleman when I say that he and the Government are right. We want to try to achieve the maximum agreement that we can on foreign policy, and the right hon. Gentleman is right to say and insist that European defence determines the priority for Britain, but it ought not to be exclusive. I think that the N.A.T.O. policy and the British policy of a tripwire which trips, of a nuclear deterrent against a frontal assault on the Continent, is right. There may be modifications of deployment. I can think of several reasons why, even now, we might, as allies in agreement, be able to withdraw some forces from Europe. I think that the right hon. Gentleman should seriously suggest to the N.A.T.O. Council that European interests might be better served if Britain were able to use some of her troops in Germany outside Europe, in different rôles elsewhere in the world.
  Outside the European theatre, on the evidence, the Soviet Union is clearly pursuing what I think in polite language is called a forward political and military strategy. This means that she is still creating tension, as we have seen in the case of the Egypt-Israeli war, and as we have seen more recently in her intervention in the Yemen following the Egyptian withdrawal. Naturally, as a Communist country, she creates tension, but she is doing more. She is picking up on the cheap, where they are presented to her on a plate, strategic and tactical positions of significance in the strategic political picture of the balance of power, and placing there a military presence. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite doubt the value of military presences in the world. This doubt is not shared by the Soviet Union.
  In the Mediterranean, in particular, the Soviet penetration has been succesful. They have established a naval presence in Alexandria and Algiers, and if, as is reported, they are likely to have a presence in Aden, they will also be able to operate in the Western part of the Indian Ocean. Over this wide area I think that

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  one is bound to conclude, taking all the evidence at one's disposal, that there has been a shift of influence if not yet a decisive shift in the balance of power.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: While in no way defending Soviet military activity anywhere in the world, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is not blinding himself to much greater military intervention by the United States, particularly in Asia, which is likely to involve the whole world in a conflagration?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I know the hon. Gentleman's strong feelings about Vietnam. I respect his feelings, and those of his hon. Friends. They are at least logical, but I am dealing with the right hon. Gentleman's policy, which is not quite the same as that of the hon. Gentleman; and I shall come to the question of Vietnam and the Far East in due course. I am trying not to exaggerate, but, on the evidence available, to give, as far as I am able to assess it, the political position in the world in terms of the balance of power.
  If one turns to the Far East and to China, I think that it is clear that China is seeking expansion, in the sense that she wishes to establish in South-East Asia Governments subservient to Peking. In this, she has not yet been successful. Her methods were too crude for Indonesia, although a take-over was tried. She has been weakened by internal, warring, ideological factions, but the House should know that during the last few weeks she has again begun an intervention in Burma, revealing very clearly that her aims have not changed, although the pace of her advance may be slow.
  There is another calculation which I think it is legitimate to weigh. The threat to the Soviet Union from China may in time mean that the Soviet Union will seek more accommodation with the West. We should, therefore, always keep open the channels of communication, particularly the co-chairmanship with Mr. Gromyko. It is possible, and there are certain signs of this, that those in China who are cautious towards external advance may increasingly get control, but today, and for the foreseeable future, both these countries are vying with each other as the champions of world revolution, and in these circumstances I think that
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  one is bound to conclude that the holding operation of the West is right, at any rate until one sees, in particular, which way the Soviet Communist cat jumps.
  It is against that background that I want to ask how Britain's strength should be deployed, and whether the Government are right in the suggestions they made last week.
  I have only two further observations to make on Europe. Like the Government, I would keep the nuclear arm. I need not go into the reasons now. I think that I have made them plain in the past, but I remind those who object to this policy that, although I believe the United States will always be on the side of the West in the N.A.T.O. Alliance, nevertheless, today we are not fighting in an American war. We might bear that in mind.
  I hope, too, that in the circumstances which I have described the right hon. Gentleman will ask the N.A.T.O. Alliance to give particular attention to the defence of the South Atlantic and the western shores of Africa, where there are facilities enjoyed by Britain because of the Simons-town Agreement. Perhaps I might remind the House that in the event of trouble east of Suez we have the use not only of Simonstown, but of every port in South Africa. I do not know whether this is generally understood, but it is immensely important, and the Simonstown Agreement has now become an essential extension of the European security system in the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
  That means, and let us face it, co-ordination between the navies and the air forces of Portugal, which is a N.A.T.O. ally, and South Africa. I know the strong feelings and prejudices about South Africa, but I prefer the security of Britain to those prejudices.—[Interruption.] I am not using the word "prejudice" in its worst sense. I do not think that the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) heard me. I am in sympathy with the rebels, but where has their logic get them? I notice that this morning a notice was put out which could have been issued by the stewards of the Jockey Club. The poor rebels find themselves in an unhappy position for the time being.
  Perhaps I might get back to my argument. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will reaffirm unmistakably the value that he attaches to Simonstown, and will

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  go to the Cabinet as soon as he can and reverse the decision on the sale of arms to South Africa, because the defence of this route is literally vital from now on to the future security of the Continent of Europe.
  I turn now to the Persian Gulf where, by an accident of history, Britain holds a position of key importance, a position at once of profit and responsibility. The responsibility is political, and by tacit consent the two principals in the area, Iran and South Arabia, allow their claims and counter-claims in the Gulf to lie fallow as long as the British presence is there.
  Nor does Iraq wish to challenge the territory of Kuwait as long as a British presence is there. But it is recognised by all who live in the Gulf that should Britain leave prematurely—that is, on anything like the time scale named by the Foreign Secretary—this area will be torn by strife and trouble, and the Soviet would be only too ready to stir the pot. It is known only too well, except by some hon. Members on the back benches opposite.
  Mr. David Winnick: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what is feared by the Rulers there is local revolts on behalf of democracy, and far greater progress than what has been achieved so far?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: If the hon. Gentleman will study the contracts with this country he will see that our only contract is in respect of external aggression against those countries, and not to take part in civil disturbance.
  This political instability which will follow a British withdrawal is what makes all the Governments of this area—including those of Iran, South Arabia, and the Trucial States—keen that Britain should stay. Therefore, in this situation, and with the certainty that political stability would be destroyed, there is no doubt that the action which the Government have taken is wrong and unacceptable and, for economic reasons, unconvincing.
  I now turn to the question of the balance sheet of capital investment and income in this area. The Opposition cannot possess all the figures, and the right hon. Gentleman will correct me
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  where I am wrong. British investment in the Gulf is calculated at about £900 million. Imports, mostly of oil, are valued at £395 million, and exports to the Gulf at £302 million. The sterling holdings of the Governments in the Middle East amount to £459 million, the percentage of British oil imports to about 46 per cent, and the percentage of British interests in the production of oil to about 30 per cent. The annual foreign exchange income is calculated at £200 million a year.
  If we take the export potential, the House no doubt recognises the fact that Abu Dhabi and Muscat are only just beginning their oil production. The striking figures, which may be quoted and are accurate, are that Abadabu's oil production in 1962 was worth £2 million, in 1967 it was worth £40 million and in 1970 it will be worth £80 million. There is an export potential for this country of enormous value.
  Perhaps the Foreign Secretary will clear up one difficulty. The Secretary of State for Defence, when interviewed on television the other night, said that the
  "foreign exchange cost of stationing troops abroad is offset by all sorts of gains we get in consequence but the objective of the decisions we took last week was not to reduce foreign exchange expenditure."
  The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey)The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey) indicated assent.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman nods his agreement, but we have been told by both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister that one of the main purposes is to reduce the burden of foreign exchange. The Foreign Secretary must clear this up. Who is right and who is not?
  Mr. Healey: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will continue to read out what I said, because if he does he will find that I said precisely what the Prime Minister said last week, namely, that the object of this exercise has been to save Government expenditure and so enable a shift of resources into exports. That has been made clear repeatedly. The object is completely different from the earlier one.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I should like to hear from the Foreign Secretary a full explanation of the way in which this is

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  to be achieved, and that the foreign exchange element has not been the most important element in the question up to date.
  Against the balance sheet that I have given the expected local military expenditure annually in the Gulf area is £12·8 million. We can double that if we want to, and can still only say that on that balance sheet the evacuation in three years which the Government have allowed themselves can have stemmed only from pure panic and nothing else. It may be that there is a basic belief among the Socialists that Britain should not have any presence overseas. That belief is probably held, I am afraid, but it is not something that the Government have said. I should like the Foreign Secretary to deal specifically with the problem of the balance sheet in the Middle East.
  The ultimate objective of the States in the Gulf and in South-East Asia must be to stand on their own feet, but that takes time, and the time should be set against the test whether evacuation will result in turmoil and wrath or in neighbourly co-operation and peace. There is no doubt what will happen if the Government stick to their plan and timetable. I do not accept that Britain can be so poor that she cannot maintain a presence and the means to support one with limited objectives. The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that apart from the balance sheet the defence expenditure of this country has been a falling percentage of the gross national product for years now.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: Is not the right hon. Gentleman assuming too easily that our military presence there can and does protect our investments and interests? We have even greater investments in the United States. Are the Opposition proposing to send a garrison to Washington?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The last part of the hon. Gentleman's observation is not worthy of reply. On the first part, if we compare the stability in the Gulf with the political condition in the rest of the Middle East we can come to only one conclusion, which is that a British presence helps towards that political stability and is an asset to this country.
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  Therefore, at the first opportunity we have we will consult the Governments of the Gulf as to what kind of progress will be helpful and practical, both for them and for Britain. This ought to have been done long ago. It has not been done up to now, but a Conservative Government, if returned, will do it, because we consider it to be to the mutual interest of the countries in the Gulf and ourselves.
  Why reject cost sharing? Do not we have cost sharing with the Germans? Why did the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State find it necessary to be so offensive to the Gulf Governments on television when talking about this question, when cost sharing is a quite legitimate practice to meet Britain's expenses overseas?
  I turn now to the question of South-East Asia. I will not rehearse the economic balance sheet there—it is fresh in the recollection of the House after the visit of the Prime Minister of Singapore—but I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect on this: if his Government had been in power only a few years back, and had been able to put into effect in advance the cuts that they are now proposing, does he realise that today neither Malaysia nor Singapore would be an independent country within the Commonwealth, but would be within a reserve of Indonesia which had temporarily sold themselves to the Chinese Communists? Does he recognise that? Does he recognise that the same danger exists in respect of other countries whose freedom is vital to the interests of the free world?
  What should be our purpose in South-East Asia? It should be something parallel—although we cannot operate on the same scale—to the action of the United States in Thailand, that is, to train the defences of Malaysia and Singapore ultimately to take over their own defence.
  There is something in the White Paper which makes me think that the right hon. Gentleman may conceivably have the same objective—training in intelligence,, in the use of the most modern equipment, particularly in air defence and counterattack. However, that, also, will take time, and everyone in that area knows it, but here we have time, largely because of the Chinese weakness. We can retain a presence and we should maintain a

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  presence and, what is more, we can do so, on any calculation, in safety.
  I have been pressing the Foreign Secretary for some time to be active in the creation of an Asian security force. If we can foresee success in this, I have another suggestion to make to him, which I have also made before and which I believe deserves serious consideration. It is that Britain might consider becoming a member of an ANZAM alliance, with particular reference to not embarking——
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown)The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown) indicated dissent.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman is anticipating that I am suggesting this in a context which he might not like, but I am not—not embarking on incursions into the mainland of Asia, but an ANZAM devoted to keeping open the sea and air approaches to South-East Asia in the Indian Ocean and the Indonesia seas. That seems to me a rôle which Britain, the United States, Australia and New Zealand are peculiarly fitted to fill and, incidentally, that alliance could make civil use of Singapore dock——
  Mr. E. Shinwell (Eastington): Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware—he must be, since he has been Foreign Secretary and Commonwealth Secretary—of the ANZUS pact which was promoted by the United States, Australia and New Zealand, but which deliberately excluded the United Kingdom?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman is historically correct, but I should be very surprised if, were Britain to make an offer to join that alliance today, we were not welcomed with open arms by Australia and New Zealand.
  I am not proposing, and have not done this afternoon, a roving world commission in the traditional sense expected of a great Power. I ask the Foreign Secretary, in respect of Europe, the Gulf and Singapore and Malaysia, to deal specifically with those areas, where we can establish and assess where a British interest lies and where there are British assets and Britain can specifically—no one else can—contribute to political stability, and where we should maintain
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  a presence for these limited and vital purposes.
  I hope that I can never be accused of being uncharitable to political opponents: life is too short for that kind of exercise. But I must say that during the last few weeks the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary and the Government as a whole have failed in their stewardship of this country which is their trust. They ought to regard it so and ought not to put a successor Government in such a position that, where there are British assets which are vital and necessary to this country, and Britain can assist the political stability of the free world, they may be physically unable to do such a thing. That is totally and absolutely wrong.
  So I conclude as I began. I believe that the Government's foreign policy has now become incredible, that it would be better for the country if they left office. When they do, we will do our best to restore both Britain's strength and Britain's honour.
  4.24 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): I am, of course, very grateful to the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) for his charity, although I suspect, from the way that he defined it, that his view of charity and mine are, like our politics, poles apart.
  The right hon. Gentleman's speech, of course, is the one which the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) should have made at the winding-up of last week's debate. I was invited to take part in this debate on the basis that the Opposition and many of my right hon. and hon. Friends wished that we should, for the first time for a long time, have a wide-ranging discussion about foreign policy. I did not know then that the right hon. Gentleman would have been propelled by the meeting which he attended last night to switch the thing and make a continuation of last week's debate.
  I propose, therefore, to make the speech which I had thought would have met the convenience of the House. It will, in some respects, meet some of the questions which the right hon. Gentleman asked. In so far as it does not, my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary hopes to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, tonight, and my right hon. Friend the

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  Secretary of State for Defence tomorrow. It might even, if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite agree, be convenient if I seek to speak again tomorrow night and finally deal with some of the right hon. Gentleman's assertions.
  I am bound to say, too, that, if the right hon. Gentleman had intended to make that sort of a speech, of which I do not complain, it would have beep, since we have been freely bandying across the House such words as "honour", more in keeping with his honour if the Opposition had put down a Motion to support such a speech instead of sliding it in in a Motion for the Adjournment, which they have no intention of doing anything about. In a way, like the right hon. Gentleman I should like to speak primarily about Europe, the Middle East and the Far East and, in doing so, to try to illustrate the general themes which I put to the House last week and which the right hon. Gentleman did not seem wholly to go along with.
  I begin by making one thing clear again. Britain's interests—let me underline the word "interests"—remain worldwide. They are the interests of a great trading and investing nation. They are, of course, particularly so far as the Commonwealth in concerned, interests which spring from sentiment and a shared history. They are interests expressed by helping to create conditions of economic development and—I join with the right hon. Gentleman in repeating this—all that that means for stability through trade and aid for the under-privileged peoples of the world.
  But this is where I part company with the right hon. Gentleman. Our world policing role which, for years, we have shouldered beyond what we could really afford and which, he clearly said today. if the Opposition were ever returned to power they would ensure that we would shoulder again, had to come to an end and must come to an end. There are others who should be playing——
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home Sir Alec Douglas-Home rose——
  Mr. Brown: Let me finish this sentence. I did not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman and I have hardly got started.
  There are others who should be playing a larger part in maintaining peace and
  stability.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, since he did not interrupt me, but this is just what I did not say. I specifically said that we did not want a world rôle in the old traditional sense, but I directed his attention to two areas—the Gulf and Singapore—in which our interests seemed to me to justify it.
  Mr. Brown: I am sorry. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If we could have a little less shouting and a little more listening, we might get on better. I thought, and I still think, that, if the right hon. Gentleman's words meant anything, especially his wonderful peroration about restoring our position and our honour, and especially what he said about the Middle East, unless it were intended to deceive people overseas—and I do not believe that he is the sort of man who would deceive them—they must have meant that the party opposite would resume the world policing role which must come to an end.
  We will, I trust, all read in the OFFICIAL REPORT what the right hon. Gentleman said. I am speaking now, a number of my hon. Friends will be speaking today and tomorrow and presumably a number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will be speaking in the debate. The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire Was very frequent in his demand that I should clear something up. I do not know whether the Leader of the Opposition intends to speak tomorrow, but I wonder whether he would clear up what his right hon. Friend really meant.
  Mr. Edward Heath: I will do it now. My right hon. Friend said quite clearly—and it is within the recollection of the House, and hon. Gentlemen opposite know it; their faces show it—that the Conservative Party does not propose that this country should have what the right hon. Gentleman terms a "world policing rôle". We believe that our interests, which have been clearly and specifically defined, in the Gulf and in Singapore and Malaysia, should be maintained. Those are two clear and specific commitments on which the present Government have ratted.
  Mr. Brown: That sort of vulgar talk—[An HON. MEMBER: "Vulgar?"] The

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  right hon. Gentleman knows a damned sight more about ratting than I shall ever learn.
  I put this point to the Leader of the Opposition. If the party opposite has no intention of continuing a world policing rôle, that must, therefore, mean that hon. Gentlemen opposite believe that it is time that we withdrew our bases from overseas—in which case, what are they arguing with us about? There are countries which should be working together for their own regional security. The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends know this as well as I do. They are putting up a most phoney fight.
  I am confident, and I wish to make this perfectly clear, that this will come about—despite the undoubted risks which our military withdrawals involve—as soon as these other countries understand that we are, in fact, withdrawing. This is where the right hon. Gentleman is conniving at one of the most dangerous things of all. So long as one pretends that one is staying, and yet says that one is not staying, one inhibits other people from taking over the responsibilities which they should take. That is why it is so very important that we should be clear about this and why, as I said last week, I thought that we had.
  Mr. Heath Mr. Heath rose——
  Mr. Brown: Cannot I get going?
  Mr. Heath: If this is the Foreign Secretary's point of view now, why did he send his right hon. Friend the Minister of State round the Gulf in November, telling them exactly the reverse and giving firm commitments to exactly the reverse effect?
  Mr. Brown: I did nothing of the sort.
  Mr. Heath: Who did?
  Mr. Brown: My right hon. Friend did
  nothing of the sort——
  Mr. Heath Mr. Heath rose——
  Mr. Brown: If the right hon Gentleman will only contain himself for a moment he will understand what I am saying. After all, I sat silent during the whole of the speech of his right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Heath Mr. Heath rose——
  Mr. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman must try to contain himself. He must listen to what I have to say. He will have all day tomorrow to answer me. With respect to him, for once he might succeed if he would listen.
  Mr. Heath: Really.
  Mr. Brown: Just try to listen for a change. I repeat that my right hon. Friend did nothing of the sort.
  Mr. Heath: What did he do?
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher):Order.
  Mr. Brown: If the House will be quiet I will deal with this point in my own way, making my own point in my own speech, just as I allowed the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire to handle his speech in his own way.
  Mr. Heath: Get on with it.
  Mr. Brown: It is no use the Leader of the Opposition continually interrupting me and then telling me to get on with it. Let us show a little bit of decency towards each other.
  I do not minimise—and I did not minimise last week—the risks involved in our present announcement. As I said last Thursday, and I repeat now, in my view they are risks which must be taken if we are to get our priorities right for this country. If the right hon. Gentleman's view is that they are risks which should not be taken, then he must tell us how else he would get the priorities right.
  Mr. Heath: I will.
  Mr. Brown: Not now.
  Mr. Heath Mr. Heath rose——
  Mr. Brown: No, no, no, most certainly not.
  Mr. Heath: Let me answer.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If the Foreign Secretary does not give way, the Leader of the Opposition must resume his seat.
  Mr. Heath: On a point of order——
  Mr. James Griffiths: On a point of order——
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am on my feet. There cannot be any points of order when I am standing. If the Foreign Secretary does not give way, the Leader of the Opposition must resume his seat.
  Mr. James Griffiths: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Mr. Heath: I was on a point of order.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. James Griffiths.
  Mr. Heath: Really.
  Mr. James Griffiths: On a point of order. As always, the House listened quietly to the opening speech by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home). Hon. Members gave him a hearing, as they should. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been continually interrupted by the Leader of the Opposition. May I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to consider calling the Leader of the Opposition to order and asking him to behave himself?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I hope that the debate can now continue in an orderly way. The right hon. Gentleman who opened the debate was listened to in comparative silence. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be given the same courtesy.
  Mr. Heath: Further to that point of order——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the House that if any hon. or right hon. Member wishes to interrupt the Foreign Secretary, and ask him a question, then it is entirely within the Foreign Secretary's discretion whether or not he gives way.
  Mr. Heath: Further to the point of order raised by the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths), in connection with why there should be these interruptions. My honour was impugned by the Foreign Secretary when he said that I was not telling the truth when I said that the Minister of State had given firm commitments on his behalf to the Rulers in the Gulf. If the Foreign Secretary accuses me of that, he must justify the fact that the Minister of State did not, in his view, give those undertakings.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Let us get this clear. If any hon. or right hon. Member thinks that his honour has been impugned, he will have an opportunity of taking part in the debate at a later stage. In other words, it does not mean that he has an automatic right to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman who is speaking.
  Mr. Brown: Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have not been slow in impugning our honour. The Leader of the Opposition's thin skin is showing through fairly easily now. I trust that he will now listen to what I am saying.
  I repeat what I said: I do not minimise that, by the announcement which we made last week, great risks are involved. However, I say again that they are risks which must, in our view, be taken to get the priorities right. The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to say that they are risks which we should not take. I got the impression that that was what he was saying. But in that case he and his hon. Friends must tell us in what other way we can get the priorities right.
  I believe, and I have said it repeatedly, that Britain has an important part to play in the world. But it is not necessary to have military bases all over the world, which we cannot afford, in order to play that part; and there are right hon. Gentlemen opposite who themselves know this, and who themselves have said it. There can be a British presence without a military presence. There can be British influence without British armies on the spot. Indeed, I go further, as I did last week, and repeat that the influence and the help which many of our friends in Asia look to us to provide can be more effective without military backing.
  Our aim must be to exert a world influence through the United Nations, through the Atlantic Alliance, and, in the future, with and through a United Europe.
  Mr. Shinwell: That is enough for me.
  Mr. Brown: I deeply regret, even though I have to say it in his absence, seeing my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) in this uneasy and, I think, unholy alliance with the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath).

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  To that unity in Europe we must bring the influence we already have with our friends and allies throughout the world.
  The choice is not between exercising world influence, on the one hand, and playing our part in Europe, on the other. It is between accepting—and this is possibly where we part company—a limited and necessarily declining influence if we try to play it alone, or enjoying the greater power and the greater influence that comes from being a leader of a major grouping of European nations.
  That is one of the main reasons why I told the House on 20th December that, in spite of General de Gaulle's veto on negotiations, the long-term interests of the country and of Europe required that we should become a full member of the European Communities. Our application for membership still stands. We have no intention of withdrawing it. This refusal to abandon our objective—the enlargement of the European Communities—has been widely welcomed in Europe, as the House knows, but most of us here and abroad recognise that because of the position which President de Gaulle has unfortunately adopted, we and Europe cannot achieve this unity in the immediate future.
  The question that faced us on 19th December, when the French veto was finally made quite plain in Brussels, was to decide how and in what direction we should go in the period immediately ahead. We could have sat down and done nothing. We could have been content to work for some interim arrangements with the Community. But, in fact, we chose to do all that was possible from outside the Community to further European unity, not relaxing our determination to secure full membership.
  The variety of possible forms of relationship with the Community which falls short of full membership is almost infinite, but one thing would be common to all: we should have a secondary and, therefore, ineffective position in the institutions of the Community. We should have obligations with no corresponding powers. In our view, no British Government or Parliament could commit themselves to accept and operate—at some date in the future when we become full members—far-reaching economic and even political decisions which we cannot possibly fore-
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  see now, and which we could not have the power to shape at the time when they were made.
  So long as we are applying for full membership on the basis of our readiness to accept the Treaty of Rome and the rules adopted under it, negotiation is a comparatively simple matter, because it must take place on the basis of agreed texts, but as soon as the object of negotiations becomes something less than full membership all sorts of uncertainties about the object and areas of negotiation arise. We should certainly find that the whole process of negotiation would take longer—without there being any certainty that, at the end of our labours, the result would be immune from yet another French veto.
  In other words, we have made our application to join—as full members—the Community as it exists today. We understand the commitments which we would be taking on now, but there is simply no means of knowing what we would be taking on if we had an undertaking to join some years from now.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: My right hon. Friend will be aware that some of us, in the absence of any agreed conditions, do not go along with him in the line he is now taking. Will he not agree that during the last 18 months we have been chasing this hare far too long, weakening our ties with the Commonwealth when we could have been helping our economic position by co-operating with the Commonwealth countries during that period, and possibly avoiding much of the present difficulty?
  Mr. Brown: Not at all—and I hope that my hon. Friend will listen to what I have to say, even though he may disagree.
  Since I last spoke on this subject I have taken every opportunity to carry our plans forward and, since this is a debate on foreign affairs, perhaps I should tell the House something of what I have been doing.
  Last week I saw Herr Brandt. The Federal German Government wish to explore the ground further with the French to see whether an interim arrangement about our relations with the Community might still be agreed. I told

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  my German colleagues that we were sceptical about this, but no one should infer from that exchange that there is a fundamental disagreement between us and the Germans on this. On the contrary, our aim and the German aim is full British membership of the Communities as soon as it can be brought about. Between us, there is complete identity of purpose.
  I have also talked in this time with Signor Fanfani and Mr. Willoch, the Norwegian Minister of Commerce.
  The Benelux Governments last week proposed various measures for cooperation in Europe. We ourselves have been thinking on much the same lines, and we shall shortly be giving them our reactions.
  We are also in close touch with our E.F.T.A. partners. There is still a certain amount of work to be done in E.F.T.A.—for example, in removing non-tariff harriers to trade. But the main task—the removal of industrial tariffs—has to all intents and purposes been completed.
  But we must pursue our policies in a wider field than E.F.T.A. European unity is our aim. We must work out with all these others in Europe, who think as we do, the lines of common action which we can take here and now to carry all of us further along this road. One thing I want to make quite clear: this course of action is not directed against France. Of course, the present Community of the Six must continue—we do not intend to hamper its work. After all, it is the Community which we ourselves will be joining some day. But what we can do outside it, we shall, and that is our purpose now.
  That is our purpose not only because we look forward to becoming members of the Community, but also because we believe in the vital importance of Europe as a whole. It is in Europe that the greatest confrontation of power exists. The differences that divide East and West in Europe go deep and will not easily be solved, but it must always be our object lo work for their solution. We trust that the force reductions that have been made in the West will presently be matched in the East. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is at present discussing fundamental problems which
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  touch on this with the Russian leaders in Moscow.
  We have faith in this continent of ours—Europe. We believe that the divisions between East and West will gradually be eased, but we believe that all the resources and skills our continent has have an important part to play in forwarding the prosperity not only of the developed world, but also of the less fortunate part of mankind.
  Now I turn to the second area I want to speak about, and which the right hon. Gentleman spoke about—the Middle East. The decision to withdraw our forces from the Persian Gulf by the end of 1971 must be seen as part of the process of military withdrawal which has been going on for decades. As I said last Thursday, this is not a decision of principle but essentially one of timing. I say quite categorically that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State did not mislead the Gulf Rulers in November. He made it absolutely clear to them that we should not stay in the Gulf for ever—[Interruption.]—if the Leader of the Opposition could occasionally listen; he cannot listen, laugh and speak at the same time—and that they should waste no time in getting on with the task of preparing for the situation after our departure.
  It does not follow that by withdrawing our military presence in the Middle East we are thereby withdrawing all our influence——
  Mr. Reginald Maudling Mr. Reginald Maudling (Barnet) rose——
  Mr. Brown: I have been going for half an hour and have had hardly five minutes of consecutive uninterrupted speech. I will give way when I have finished the sentence, but I think that I am entitled now to be allowed to make my speech. This is a two-day debate. Other hon. Members will have a chance to pick holes in my argument.
  It does not follow that by withdrawing our military presence in the Middle East we are thereby withdrawing all our influence. There are other ways in which we can contribute to the stability and prosperity in the area.
  Mr. Maudling: I think that the right hon. Gentleman could help the House—

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  me certainly—by saying in what way, then, the message taken by the Minister of State differed from the first statement made two months before.
  Mr. Brown: As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, between the two dates we had decided to speed up—[An HON. MEMBER: "Exactly."]—to change the timing. [Laughter.] The idea that hon. Members should guffaw and laugh, and that that somehow scores a point, just denigrates the Opposition's own hopes.
  There was a change of timing. This we have explained, this I defended last Thursday night, this right hon. Gentlemen opposite are now perfectly entitled to attack, but there is nothing in that which entitles them to this guffawing. My right hon. Friend explained the reasons and there is no evidence whatever that the Rulers in the Gulf take the attitude about this which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are taking——
  Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: Nonsense.
  Mr. Brown: I wanted to make a speech on foreign affairs, but if hon. Members opposite want to make the debate just a political game and a political argument, then, so far as I am concerned, that is all right, but people outside want to hear more about the argument and a little less of the David Frost Show that we are getting from hon. Members opposite. We have many——
  Mr. Heath: The Foreign Secretary invited me to interfere. If he could have been absolutely clear and honest with the House in the first instance he would have told the House that his right hon. Friend the Minister of State told the Rulers in the Gulf that he was going to adhere to the original timetable. That was my point, but the Foreign Secretary has now admitted that he told them that and then has had to go and tell them exactly the reverse a month later.
  Mr. Brown: We did not reverse it. If we say that we have decided to revise the timetable—[Interruption.] Incidentally, since the right hon. Gentleman was touchy about impugning someone's honour, who is impugning what when he now accuses me of being a little dis-
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  honest? [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Let us have a little of the same standards for each other. I have told the House exactly what my right hon. Friend did on both occasions. I repeat, the Rulers in the Gulf and the other organisations in the Gulf do not play politics over this in the same way as the right hon. Gentleman, to his eternal disgrace, is trying to do.
  We have many and deep-seated links with the countries of the Middle East. Our commercial and economic interests, as at least the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) knows, depend powerfully on the countries in this area and their prosperity depends enormously on our development of those commercial and economic interests. There are also close cultural ties. These are the links which bind us and the Middle East together and they do not depend on the presence of our military forces.
  If the House will allow me—and I apologise for being on my feet for so long, although I do not think I have been speaking for all that time—I will give an instance of how this influence does not depend on military forces. Since we last considered the Middle East, in November, the Arab-Israel situation has shown some improvement. This improvement is due in great measure to what Britain was able to achieve at the Security Council. Last November, the discussions at the United Nations appeared to be totally deadlocked. A number of draft resolutions had been canvassed, but all were regarded as totally unacceptable by one side or the other. The House will recall that at that stage no compromise seemed possible.
  Up to then I thought that we should not get involved in the partisan exchanges that were going on, but I then decided that it would be wrong to stand aside and watch the deadlock deepen, with all the tragic consequences involved. So I then decided to formulate our own balanced resolution. Thanks to the efforts of my right hon. Friend Lord Caradon, and the delegation at New York, this resolution was unanimously adopted by the Security Council on 22nd November. Of course, the fact that a resolution was unanimously adopted was a success for the whole Security Council, but we in Britain can rightly take great pride in

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  what happened. Here we exerted our influence as a world Power and our success had absolutely nothing to do with a military presence in the area.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: What has happened in the area?
  Mr. Brown: This resolution by itself, I accept, can do no more than point the way to a solution of the present grave problems. The countries most directly concerned have, with the exception of Syria, accepted the terms of the resolution and Dr. Jarring, the very distinguished Swedish diplomat, has for some weeks been holding confidential discussions with them. There have been some signs of practical improvement in the situation. There has been an exchange of prisoners; there has been progress over the ships trapped in the Suez Canal, but this is not enough. The longer things remain as they are on the ground, the harder it will be to make progress on the major issues.
  I want to state again to everybody who can hear it, inside or outside the House, my firm view that time is not on the side of reasonable and constructive development. I believe that, since the June war, a desire has developed in a number of the countries concerned to break out of the pattern of sterile bitterness, punctuated by violence and war, and to look afresh at the situation in the region, in the interests of peaceful co-existence. If nothing comes of it soon, those who hold these views may be in no position to carry them further.
  I do not want now to discuss the elements of a settlement. It might very well complicate Dr. Jarring's task if I did. I would only like to beg all the leaders concerned to concentrate on the fundamental issues and to be ready to make concessions, or even to take risks, on issues, however important these may seem in the short run.
  Possibly at a later stage we may be able to help. If we can, we will. We can do so only if we are trusted by both sides. This is what guides me in all my dealings on this subject of the Middle East This is why I was glad to have had the opportunity last week of a detailed discussion about it with the Prime Minister of Israel. This is also why I have welcomed, not always with the full support of the entire House, the resump-
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  tion of diplomatic relations with the United Arab Republic and the return of the Lebanese and British Ambassadors to London and Beirut.
  I am glad to be able to tell the House—again, all the House may not like to hear this—that there are signs that others of the Arab countries which broke off diplomatic relations with us would be glad to resume them. I am already in touch with them about this. We are constantly discussing with the United Arab Republic Government the question of the Suez Canal and the release of the blocked ships.
  As I told the House at Question Time on Monday, I am cautiously optimistic that the four British ships will be released in the reasonably near future. In my opinion, the Government of the U.A.R. show every sign of doing their best to help over this matter.
  The opening of the Suez Canal as a whole is a more difficult problem. It would be unrealistic to suppose that it could be opened without the consent of both sides. This consent implies important political decisions, including the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the banks of the Canal and freedom of navigation in the Canal in accordance with the Convention of 1888. This is part of Dr. Jarring's task, and I think that it would be wrong for me to enlarge on the subject until he has reached his conclusions.
  I turn now to the third point raised by the right hon. Gentleman, that of the Far East and South-East Asia. Something which the right hon. Gentleman left out, but which I know that he has had in in his mind, is that one of the most significant features of the second half of this century is the growth and prosperity which have now come to so many of the countries in this region.
  I have just returned from Japan with a very clear impression of the extent of economic expansion going on there, of their industrial efficiency, of the possibilities of the market there, and, much more importantly—I say this to my own trade union colleagues as much as to anybody else—of how hard we in Britain must work to get into that and other markets in the Far East, faced, as we are, with this very efficient competition.

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  It should be remembered that where Japan stands today other Asian nations will stand tomorrow. And, whatever the position is today in China, sooner or later she will emerge as a great industrial nation and potentially a great market.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: I agree with much of what my right hon. Friend says about the development in Japan, but is not one of the key economic factors in relation to Japan that she spends less than 2 per cent, of her G.N.P. on defence, whereas we are still spending 6·5 per cent.?
  Mr. Brown: There is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says. [Laughter.] I wondered whether to add this. I shall now say it, in view of the giggling. I have said that there is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says, but he must ask himself whether he wants to urge Japan to increase her 2 per cent, to 6·5 per cent.
  Mr. Orme: I want it to be the other way round.
  Mr. Brown: It cannot be the other way round, for the reasons that I gave earlier. It is certainly true that, without stability, this new-found prosperity will come to nothing. But I repeat that stability in this area, as in the Middle East, whether it be economic or political, cannot be maintained indefinitely by foreign bases or by foreign arms.
  It is a tribute to our record in dealing with emergent Asian nationalism, particularly during the years immediately after the last war, when a Labour Government were also occupying these benches, that today our participation in the affairs of South-East Asia and of the Far East is not only tolerated but welcomed and encouraged.
  Our participation, particularly in the sphere of trade and economics, with all the benefits that it will bring for both sides, will be welcomed only as long as we are prepared to co-operate and compete in trade with Asian countries on acceptable terms. Here, what counts are the knowledge and expertise which we have built up over the years. Everybody, including the Tory Party, must accept that we cannot rely any longer on any position of privilege left over from our imperial past.
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  However, any consideration of South-East Asia must be inevitably dominated by events in Vietnam. I want to devote the last few minutes of what I want to say to these events. I wish I could confidently prophesy an early end to the war. Hopes have been raised by the North Vietnamese Foreign Minister's most recent statement. I know that the United States is carefully exploring the statement.
  We all hope that Hanoi is genuinely moving to a position where the United States could order its bombing to stop as a first step, confident that this gesture would not result in numbers of their soldiers and those of their allies dying in vain while awaiting a response from the other side; confident, too, that a cessation of the fighting throughout the whole of Vietnam would be the first item for discussion; in short, that the North Vietnamese will show some readiness to move towards the American position, much as I believe that President Johnson took account of North Vietnamese fears and suspicions in the proposals he made at San Antonio.
  There have been numerous commentaries on the statement by Foreign Minister Trinh, but none of them, in my view, can be any substitute for the deep exploration which is now being conducted by the United States.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: I agree with my right hon. Friend about this new step towards negotiation by the North Vietnamese, but will he ask President Johnson not to stipulate any conditions which will make negotiations impossible?
  Mr. Brown: As I said, deep exploration is now going on. I trust that neither side will stipulate conditions which will make negotiation impossible, and I hope very much that Hanoi will indicate that an approach to the table would be prompt and purposeful and that advantage would not be taken of a bombing stop in the meantime. I say this rather carefully. I would rather not elaborate further.
  I know that some people think that negotiations, whatever the conditions, are better than no negotiations at all. As the House has heard me say before, it is easier for those who have no responsibility to say this than for those who have., But, looking beyond the results of such

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  an action, I fear that the results of stopping the bombing, if this went unrequited by meaningful talks, could be a resumption of fighting, more intense and on an even larger scale.
  I therefore repeat what I said to the House on Monday, which one or two of my hon. Friends did not much like. I think that this is a moment to be patient, to await the outcome of the exploration that we know—I am choosing my words carefully—is going on. Meanwhile, I have my own responsibility as one of the two co-chairmen of the Geneva Conference. The time will surely come when international sanction will have to be secured for any settlement, in whatever way negotiations for it may have been started.
  I know that there is constant anxiety that the war might spread further to neighbouring countries. One thing that we could do right away is to expand the work of the International Control Commission to supervise the Cambodian frontiers. I have satisfied myself that the United States is ready to accept. Cambodia, I know, wants it to happen. If we could do this, we would not only detect boundary violations, but the mere fact that we could detect them could be a deterrent to their happening wherever they came from. But the Communist Powers still block this measure. They should not, and we have told them so, and I will be glad if anybody else who can address messages in that direction would say the same thing.
  If I can sum up in a few sentences the theme of what I have said today, it is this. Whether one looks at Europe, the Middle East or the Far East, our interests and, even more, our needs for their development and their prosperity remain. In the Middle East and in Asia, I believe—unlike, I gather, hon. Members opposite, but they will make this clear during the course of the debate—our standing will not in the future depend upon our military presence. Increasingly in other ways, by trade, by aid, by cultural activities, our presence will be felt, and, I believe, felt even more strongly.
  The logical consequence of the defence cuts which we debated last week, and which the right hon. Gentleman raised again today, is certainly not a retreat into a Little Englander rôle. We are not withdrawing into a selfish isolation.
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  Much more, we see that our contribution to the development and prosperity of other continents is geared to what we can afford to do, and that from the base of economic strength which we must create in this country we can then exert an influence for good, world-wide.
  I am grateful to the House for letting me get through my speech. I am sorry that it took so long—it was often my fault—but I say to the House quite firmly that I believe that if hon. Members will seriously consider it they will see that the policy that we are now embarked upon is the only one which will give this country the strength it needs to carry out the kind of foreign policy which our position in the world requires.
  5.14 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: The Foreign Secretary admires Ernest Bevin who was Foreign Secretary when I first had the privilege of coming to this House. I hope the right hon. Gentleman sometime will have time to read a good biography of Ernest Bevin and try to follow him in the way that Ernest Bevin used to speak for Britain. So long as the Foreign Secretary stuck to his brief it was all right, but his forays in the first quarter of an hour were disastrous. To adapt the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) on another occasion, I wish that more often the Foreign Secretary would try to behave like a Foreign Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."] No, it is perfectly true. The right hon. Gentleman accuses us on this side of the House of trying to play a world police rôle in the affairs of the world. Surely that is his approach—an open-ended commitment to the United Nations, to take on anything which they may offer to us, without the facilities or the strength or the bases with which to carry out those tasks.
  I want to put two points to the House as quickly as possible. I support the two specific objectives, limited as they are, as my right hon. Friend has said, in the Gulf and the Far East. The first point is the policy behind the defence of N.A.T.O. outside the N.A.T.O. area, especially in the Mediterranean and in the Middle East. I had the privilege—if I might have the Foreign Secretary's

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  attention for a moment—of being Under-Secretary at the Commonwealth Office when the Simonstown Agreement was signed under my right hon. Friend. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take this suggestion seriously, because I believe our European friends are now anxious that this global strategy affecting southern African trade routes should be taken into account.
  My second point relates to the studied destruction of the availability of facilities to future Governments to honour treaties and to help our allies and the Commonwealth as the need may arise in the future. There has been a remarkable debate going on elsewhere, to which I am not allowed to refer, but I hope that in due course the Foreign Secretary will have his attention drawn to it because I believe that in that other place there are Members who can speak about world strategy with greater authority than many of us in this House can speak. It seems to me that in the debates of yesterday and today they have been speaking in terms which will affect the whole future of this country and its place in the world.
  The first specific point that I want to put to the House concerns the defence of N.A.T.O. outside the N.A.T.O. area. Thanks to the Prime Minister, I have been nominated a member of Western European Union during the last two and a half years. For that period, with other hon. Members, we have tried to get our friends in Western European Union to take more interest, and to play a part, in the defence of Western Europe outside the N.A.T.O. area. We had no response in that respect until the six days' war last June.
  After that there was quite a sharp reaction leading to a document, unnumbered for certain technical reasons but attached to Document No. 431 dated 4th December, 1967, which is available to hon. Members in the Library of the House. It was written by Franz Goedhart, an outstanding Dutch Socialist who is a personal friend of many hon. Members on both sides of the House. It consists only of 28 pages. It is easy to read and I commend it to anybody as a very clear exposition of the situation which our Western European allies regard as the background which we in this country
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  have to face. It was accepted with only three opponents, and those were not Frenchmen.
  I should like to draw attention briefly to some of the points of this document. It welcomes
  "the continued presence of the United States Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean as the main element in the defence of the area".
  As to the recommendations, there are points to please everybody. It recommends
  "that an international body should be established…governing the passage of vessels through the Suez Canal; that the North Atlantic Council should persuade the present Greek Government to restore a freely elected parliamentary system; that Western European countries should work for direct negotiations between Israel and the Arab States; that an international armaments register should be established under the auspices of the United Nations."
  It is also recommended that more encouragement should be given through O.E.C.D. to the great oil companies to have contingency planning against another crisis such at that which arose last summer.
  I should like to take the opportunity of saying how remarkable it was that those organisations together produced results which led to to no shortfall in the supply of oil to any country in the free world. Stocks may have been reduced for a short time, but the flow of oil to the consumer continued. That is something for which all of us should give credit to those concerned—the O.E.C.D. Government and the great international oil companies.
  This is a matter which may not come within the area of responsibility of the Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs. A lot of hard work is put in by Members on both sides of the House with very little recognition in public, but, under the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Robert Edwards), who is Chairman of the Committee on Defence Questions and Armaments, we have achieved for the first time in 10 years a virtually unanimous resolution with recommendations about the defence of the N.A.T.O. countries outside the N.A.T.O. area. I put down a Question to the Foreign Secretary on what he was doing about it, and he said, as usual, that he was just having a look at it. This could be a serious contribution to our foreign policy.
  Mr. Ivor Richard: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is anything whatsoever in that document which ties the continuation of a British presence in the Persian Gulf to the defence of N.A.T.O.'s southern flank outside Europe, which seemed to be one of the points made by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)? As far as I can remember, that point was not made in Mr. Goedhart's document.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: Not yet, but we are looking towards that. It condemned the British in Aden and the French for giving up Mers-el-Kebir and the handing over of those two areas on a plate within a year, maybe, to Russian occupation which no Czar in his wildest dream's could have dreamt would happen. But in the wide field of foreign affairs, this represents a break-through to those of us who believe in European co-operation—that thedefence of Western Europe should not only be carried out in Western Europe but extend to all parts of the world—Southern Africa and the Middle East.
  My second point is that the Government are deliberately destroying the ability of future Governments to honour our treaties—CENTO, S.E.A.T.O. and ANZAM have been mentioned—by withdrawing altogether from the Gulf and the Far Hast, by running down our forces and "hardware" and by abandoning bases and staging posts. It is clear to anybody who has studied this matter that the domestic problems, resulting from three years of Socialism, have led to their being used as a smokescreen to retreat from the undertakings which, in honour, previous Governments have given.
  I do not believe for a moment that this is a question of money. At the moment, the Government are spending, in my opinion rightly, £12 million a year in Aden. If they can do that, why cannot they find £15 million to protect the free flow of oil from the Gulf to the free world? The argument that the Germans, Japanese and others get it without having forces there is quite irrelevant. Last summer, British Forces were there and the Gulf was the only stable part of the area during the six weeks war.
  Mr. Paul B. Rose: Is not the significant point precisely that during that period we did not
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  get oil and that we did have troops there?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: The oil flowed, although it was held up for a short time; but it was stopped for longer when going through places where there were not British troops—the Canal, Syria and Iraq. It is time that hon. Members opposite either found out for themselves by going out there or kept quiet instead of making these misrepresentations.
  For the first time, under this Government, there are sinister influences trying deliberately to destroy the ability of successor Governments to carry out what they regard as their honourable obligations. For instance, the jigs and drawings of the TSR2 were destroyed a few days after the Prime Minister returned from Washington at the end of 1964. Never before, as far as I know, in the aircraft industry have jigs and tools been destroyed; they have been put aside for five to ten years. But this was, in the opinion of those in the aircraft industry, deliberately done to stop any successor Tory Government resurrecting this project.
  Now we are faced with the date of 1st March, 1971. Why that particular day? It is five years after the last General Election. Five years have been given to those concerned to complete the withdrawal with the intention that no successor Government will be able to resurrect the sort of commitments which we, perhaps wrongly, believe we are in honour and good sense entitled to carry out, and are able to only if something is left for us to do it with.
  Having endured the 1930s, like other hon. Members, and survived to see the Socialist Government sitting on the Front Bench opposite from 1945 to 1951, I never personally doubted their patriotism at any time. I sometimes doubted their judgment, but never their patriotism.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr (Rochester and Chatham)rose——
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am sorry; I must get on. I have given way twice.
  However, I am sorry to say that I doubt the patriotism of the Prime Minister and many of those who at present sit on the Government Front Bench. I have sat here and watched it. I am against having television in the House

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  in general, but I wished that we had it last Thursday to show the Prime Minister, sitting there with his colleagues, haggard and defeated men and women and disgraced, in contrast to standards which were maintained during the 1945–51 Government.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose——
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: No.
  Everything which the Government have advocated is in ruins, as we foretold. They spend their lives attacking the free enterprise system, which, despite this Government, has built up exports since 1945 and from many of whose markets—that is, the export markets—the Government now propose to withdraw their protection and influence. If any individuals had gone to the market with the sort of prospectus on which the Socialist Party fought the 1966 election, they would by now have been in prison, in view of what has happened.
  I believe in the cliché that peace is in divisible. The world is in a more dangerous situation than ever before. The Warsaw Pact is certainly more powerful than at any time in the past. I still believe that this country's most effective contribution to Western defence can be made outside the immediate N.A.T.O. area until existing conflicts in these areas can be better resolved and local forces, political and military, can be built up, particularly in the Gulf and in the Far East, as Mr. Lee pointed out in such a clear way last week. I believe, too, that Britain can and must be prepared to spend between 6 and 7 per cent, of its gross national product on defence. We did that with success in the past under a Tory Government when the gross national product was growing steadily. If we can spend £2,500 million on tobacco, drink and gambling we can afford to pay 6 or 7 per cent, on our defence. Such expenditure in helping to maintain stability within the United Nations will help us earn our way in those stable areas——
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Does my hon. Friend recall that in the Civil Estimates which were presented the other night the expenditure for Ministry of Works furniture and heating for new offices was greater than the
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  whole sum required to keep our troops in the Persian Gulf?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: That is the sort of deplorable outcome of last week's events. Everybody in the country—certainly everybody in business—was ready to support the Government. We were ready to do anything we could, but after all the 30 hours in Cabinet they produced the miserable £300 million cuts, and on the second day of the debate we received Supplementary Estimates for £120 million. That makes absolute nonsense of the whole thing.
  In conclusion, I wish to read an extract from the Economist, a paper which is not notorious for support of the Tory cause, of 16th December, before the recent cuts. It says:
  "And further, major defence cuts will not be just another step in the long retreat: they will virtually mean the end of a coherent defence system, other than the protection of the British Isles themselves inside what remains of N.A.T.O. We are getting uncomfortably close to ending up as an Iceland with 55 million people. It is uncomfortable because a relatively rich, populous, educated, and experienced country ought to be doing something more positive in the world. This ought not to be the time for Britain, as well as Europe, to opt out. Britain has shown what can be done; its past actions have been welcomed by other countries, whose letters of thanks lie in the Commonwealth Office; the British presence happens to be, in most parts between Kuwait and western Australia, more acceptable than that of any other power."
  I believe that that is true. I believe that the decision taken by the Government—or non-Government—will have the result described in the article. At least half of the Cabinet should have resigned if they had maintained any of the standards of public life and Ministerial responsibility known until about a couple of months ago. As one of those who did not enjoy the advantages of an education at Eton, I am interested to note that the only old Etonian member of the Cabinet was the only one who, in honour, resigned.
  Not a single one of the other Ministers who have been in office for three years, pulling the country down, had the nerve to do such a thing. Those dreary men have betrayed the post-war ideals of the Commonwealth, of practical international co-operation with which Lord Attlee, Mr. Bevin and others gave us a lead in the years after the war. [An

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  HON. MEMBER: "The hon. Gentleman did not say it then."] Yes, Sir, I did. On many occasions we had a national over seas policy which many of us on both sides of the House supported. But that is not so now, as the Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs well knows. He was not sitting with his head hanging last Thursday, as he might well have been. The Government collapsed last Thursday and have no moral right to continue in office after reversing just about everything on which they fought the 1964 and 1966 elections. They are now a non-government, directing non-events, presided over by a discredited Prime Minister. He is going around in Moscow in ridiculous headgear, with a divided party behind him and with his policies in ruins, and I do not know how he can pretend that he is effecting any thing in Moscow at this time. He does no service to anything that democrats in the House——
  The Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. George Thomas): These vindictive personal attacks on my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister not only fail to add anything to the hon. Gentleman's argument but show that he is consumed with malice and hatred which are unworthy of a Member of the House.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I congratulate the Minister of State on those words. I hope that they are drawn to the attention of the Prime Minister and that he will get the promotion due to him in that way.
  The party which the Prime Minister left behind him in the House is ridden by dissension and mishandled by the Leader of the House and the Patronage Secretary. As we said in another place, the Prime Minister should be here, telling us what his foreign policy is now that he has destroyed that of two months ago and of the last election. If Britain is to earn its way in the world and deserve its place he cannot delay in letting the country choose between Socialism, which has once again shown that it is unfit——
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: On a point of order. Is it not the custom of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that speeches should not be read?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Order. It is a rule of the House that speeches should not be read. I regret to say that in recent years it is a rule that has tended to be regarded much more in the breach than in the observance. Members may refer to notes, but there is a distinct rule that speeches may not be read.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I have come to the end of my speech. I was saying that once again Socialism has shown itself unwilling and unable to govern. It is high time that the Prime Minister and his Ministers gave way to let somebody take over who can govern. The country is prepared to make sacrifices for others overseas who are less fortunate than we are. We as a party are prepared to make sacrifices and try to help those people who, in the past few years have put faith in this country and the honour of the statesmen who led it.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: It is a pity that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) spoiled his speech by impugning the patriotism of other hon. Members. We can all do that, but it would only end in a dogfight and do no good to any of us.
  Apart from the hon. Gentleman's speech, the debate has been partly a continuation of last week's debate on the Government's cuts in public expenditure and partly of the debates last autumn about our application to join the European Economic Community. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told us today that he is unwilling even now to withdraw the application for full membership of the E.E.C. In a speech I made in the debate on the Loyal Address last November, I argued that if my right hon. Friend blindly persisted with the application he would only bang his head against a wall of French resistance, and that the time had come to consider alternative policies which might get us somewhere. He did not listen but walked blindly on, and it seemed to me that everyone in Europe except the British Foreign Secretary knew what would happen. The sad truth is that in recent months, at any rate on this issue., the Foreign Office has not merely been deluding everybody else but has largely succeeded in deluding itself. Look at the

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  harm done to our economy by pressing the operation beyond any reasonable point.
  It seemed to me that there was a perfectly good case for the original probe a year ago to find out how the ground lay in the E.E.C. It might at least have educated some people who had not already grasped the realities. The real mistake was to press blindly on last autumn with an approach that obviously could do nothing but damage at that time. As a result of that policy we have wasted a great deal of time and Governmental effort which should have been devoted throughout last year to strengthening our economy.
  Mr. Peter Mahon: Does my right hon. Friend think that it is fair to blame my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for the intransigence and blind obstinacy of General de Gaulle, which could not, by any standard, have been foreseen?
  Mr. Jay: If my hon. Friend looks at my speech in November last year, he will see that I foresaw it, as did a number of other hon. Members.
  Secondly, the whole episode has still further damaged our Commonwealth trade and our export prospects in various expanding markets such as Australia.
  Thirdly, this long and fruitless argument with the E.E.C. and particularly the Commission's report in September on our economy contributed to devaluation and all that follows.
  But the really remarkable part of the story is this. If it had succeeded and we had joined the E.E.C, we should have loaded on to our already tottering balance of payments a further burden estimated by the Prime Minister in the debate last May as being £500 million a year, and that estimate has, of course, been further increased as a result of devaluation. We should, therefore, if the operation had succeeded, have undone the whole advantage to our economy which we are now supposed to achieve as result of devaluation.
  We were told then that the extra £500 million did not matter very much because all we should have to do was to achieve an internal switch over of resources to exports and import saving of
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  so many millions of pounds. We learnt last week what a shift of resources of that kind means not just in words but in reality.
  But I find something that is even more disturbing and distressing. The Foreign Secretary told us last week, and repeated today, that we have to go back on our agreements with the Commonwealth countries. I speak as one who also repeated those promises in public speeches in Australia only 18 months ago. He said that we had to go back on them, because economically we could not afford to do otherwise.
  The cost of keeping our agreement with Singapore would be about £30 million or £40 million a year for a few years, but the cost of our Army in Germany is nearly £100 million in foreign exchange and there is no offset agreement beyond March. The gross cost is about £200 million. The cost of joining the E.E.C. to our balance of payments after devaluation would be more like £700 million a year. Yet we are told that we cannot do the former although we have promised it, and we frantically grasp at the latter though it would cost us more than ten times as much. I find much cynical nonsense in the argument.
  We are then told that the economic losses of the E.E.C. operation have to be borne for the sake of the great political gains. But look at the political results of the last six months. We have, in effect, been trying to associate with those who do not want to associate with us and refusing to associate with those who do. As a result, our relations with France are worse than they have been for I do not know how many years; we have irritated the Germans by persistently putting pressure on them to bully the French; we have disillusioned some of our best friends in E.F.T.A. by our lack of wisdom and shocked Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Malaysia; and we have seriously disappointed the United States Government.
  Mr. Maurice Edelman: My right hon. Friend spoke about the disillusionment of our friends in E.F.T.A. through our lack of wisdom. Would he tell the House who imposed the surcharge?
  Mr. Jay: My hon. Friend is referring to a totally different event. If he would

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  discuss the policies of the last six months with some of our most friendly partners in E.F.T.A., I am sure he would find that many believe that the last application was signularly ill-timed and ill-fated. I think that in all circumstances this cannot be regarded as an outstandingly successful example of external policy.
  The root cause of the mistakes has, I believe, been to substitute doctrinairism, and in particular dogma about the E.E.C., for realism and common sense. But the trouble is that even at this stage after the French veto, on the evidence of what my right hon. Friend said today, apparently the Foreign Secretary means to proceed with this doctrinaire policy. The Government are still blindly marching on. The Foreign Secretary's policy, in effect, is to do nothing but wait on the doorstep until General de Gaulle disappears from the scene. Yet I believe that, quite apart from everything else, it is most unwise to assume that opposition to British entry in France ends with General de Gaulle. The organised French employers have since devaluation switched over to outright opposition to British entry. The Communist Party, which has the largest single vote in France after the Gaullists, has recently declared its opposition to British entry except on the condition of abandonment of the Atlantic Alliance by this country.
  In these circumstances, this policy—if one can call it that—of waiting disconsolately on the door mat gets us the worst of all worlds. We lose still more Commonwealth trade by advertising to Australia and others that as soon as we can we mean to deprive them of their preferences here. We get nowhere with the Five because the E.E.C.—it is one of its defects—has what is called a common commercial policy, as the Foreign Secretary did not seem to realise when he made his statement on 20th December. The Five cannot engage in any meaningful tariff or trade negotiations at all without the agreement of the French. That is the constitution of the Community.
  Lastly, if we go on with this policy we fail to explore possible other policies open to us. Yet my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister himself said in the debate on 8th May that he did not
  "discount the possibility of—"
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  new economic—
  "groupings for the future if our…application—"
  That is, to the E.E.C—
  'were to fail, or to plough into the sands".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8 th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 1097.]
  Plainly, it has failed, and we all know that it has. There are alternatives open to us both in the short term and in the long term. In the short term General de Gaulle has himself suggested what could be an industrial free trade area agreement between the E.E.C. and E.F.T.A. According to The Times of last Saturday—I should like to know from the Government whether this is correct—the Germans have also now suggested the possibility of such free trade area negotiations between the E.E.C. on the one hand and the United Kingdom, Denmark, Norway and Ireland on the other. I hope we can be told whether that suggestion was made.
  Provided that an arrangement of that kind embraced the whole of E.F.T.A. and we did not let down more of our friends by leaving them outside, I believe that that would be a wholly desirable arrangement. It would no more be associate membership of the E.E.C.—and, therefore, in no way open to the objections which the Foreign Secretary was advancing today to any alternative to membership—than was the Kennedy Round settlement which we successfully negotiated last year with the E.E.C, E.F.T.A. and United States, an operation which succeeded, I think, because it was founded on realism and not on any particular doctrine. I therefore say to the Government, "For heaven's sake let us now follow up the suggestion which has come from the French and, apparently, also now from the Germans ". That is for the short term.
  In the long term we should surely now explore, as the Prime Minister promised in May, the other opportunities open to us, whether in enlarging E.F.T.A., or a much wider free trade area including North America and the Commonwealth and E.F.T.A. and anyone else who will join, or of further bilateral free trade areas, such as that which we have already formed with Ireland and could with some of the Caribbean countries, for instance,

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  if we had the will, or of increased East-West trade in addition. These possibilities are not incompatible with one another and are already positive and should be pursued.
  What the country needs now and wants is a change of course. We have been blown off course often enough. First, we should be more realistic and, secondly, we should aim at getting respected in the world once again. We should refrain from making any more enemies and we should defend the valuable assets which we already possess, such as Commonwealth Preference among others. We should now announce that we are not pursuing this E.E.C. application any further, but that we are perfectly willing to negotiate with the E.E.C. on reasonable terms at any time when they may approach us, but that meawhile we intend in any case to strengthen our close economic relations with the Commonwealth and with the other E.F.T.A. countries.
  Above all, we should stop alienating and offending those who want to be our friends and who have proved to be our friends, not just in theory, but in hard practice.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Kirk: The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) always reminds me of an Irish politician of my acquaintance who could attribute any natural or supernatural disaster to partition. Anything which goes wrong with this country the right hon. Gentleman attributes to our pursuit of membership of the European Economic Community. It does not appear to have occurred to him that some of the disasters which have occurred to this country over the last three years may be due to the incompetence of the Government of which until a short time ago he was a leading member. For the right hon. Gentleman, the man who devised and tried to put through the Stansted affair, to talk about other people as being doctrinaire seemed to be going a little too far.
  I want to talk about Europe, but before I come to some of the specific points which the right hon. Gentleman made I should like to refer to the relationship of our European policy to the world outside Europe. We have heard a lot today
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  from the Foreign Secretary and from my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) about our changed rôle in the world. This changed rôle is no surprise to any of us. It has been coming along for a very long time now, certainly while both Conservative and Labour Governments have been in office.
  The problem—and here I agree with the Foreign Secretary—is and always has been a question of timing. The attack which we are making on the Government today is that their timing is wrong, and this is an attack in principle. The Foreign Secretary seemed to dismiss timing as though it were peripheral to the whole argument once it had been agreed that we were to cease our world policing rôle. We agreed to that virtually in 1947 when we gave up India, but how we do it and the time we take over it and, above all, the arrangements which we make, or try to see that other people make, to carry on the job after we have gone are all just as important as the decision in principle.
  The attack which we are making on the Government is not on the decision in principle, a decision with which most of us on these benches would probably agree—that we cannot go on indefinitely accepting commitments all over the world—but on the fact that the Government have taken this decision in a panic, for reasons which have nothing to do with foreign policy or defence considerations and which are concerned only with economic matters, taking the decision without making any attempt whatever to ensure that a stable situation would exist when they left. This is a very serious charge.
  The two areas outside Europe with which we are most concerned are two of the most volatile and difficult in the world. Only in the last 24 hours we have seen how dangerous is the situation in South-East Asia. I was surprised that the Foreign Secretary made no reference at all to the recent incident between the United States and North Korea which seems to have very grave implications. Goodness knows how many times since the war we have seen how desperate is the situation in the Middle East. If, in the past, we have accepted a rôle there, and both parties have, then it is the duty of both parties, the Labour Party as well

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  as my party, to see that if we give it up we do so in a way which will ensure, so far as we can, that stability follows when we leave.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Will the hon. Gentleman give his interpretation of "stability"? That is something which should be mentioned in the debate.
  Mr. Kirk: That is a very fair question.
  To me, stability means that if change takes place, and change will be necessary in all these areas and one expects it, it will take place so far as possible peacefully and in an orderly fashion. After all, we have ensured in vast areas of the world for which we have been responsible in the past that when change has taken place, it has occurred with the minimum loss of life and the minimum amount of strife and the minimum loss of economic potential and so on. It is essential that when we go, we should try 1o ensure that that situation continues, as we did with India, although, after all, when we left nearly one million people in India lost their lives, and as we did in Africa where the effects were a little longer delayed.
  The complaint made by the Prime Minister of Singapore and by the Gulf Sheikhs—and I do not accept the Foreign Secretary's statement that they are all absolutely happy with the situation and only too happy to see us go; that is a lot of nonsense—is not that we are going. Their complaint is of the manner of our departure, and it is about that that we are censuring the Government, and quite rightly.
  In passing, I should like to refer to the statement of the Defence Secretary about the Gulf States the other night. When a friend of this country makes a genuine offer to help us out of an economic difficulty, to say that he is trying to turn us into mercenaries and that we are not going to help slavers is to lack not only courtesy, but foresight. In our present economic situation we may need the support of the people in this area and, however desperate Ministers may be in the present situation, they should weigh their words more carefully when addressing them to people outside the House.
  What is the relationship of all this to Europe? I am told that the Government
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  have invented a new defence and foreign policy, that they are now all great Europeans, that everything will be concentrated on Europe and that we can forget about the rest. It is perfectly true—and my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) referred to this—that in the past other European countries have been reluctant to see that their interests lay outside Europe just as much as ours did. I think that they are coming to realise now that over the last 10 or 15 years we have carried a considerable burden for them which if the alliance is to make any sense at all in future, they will now have to share with us and with the Americans.
  I do not claim any great gift of prophecy, but I remember referring, in a foreign affairs debate at the end of 1965, to the need for some kind of not British but European presence outside the European area, and I still believe that to be true. Even if we do not have it, the great gap in the Foreign Secretary's speech this afternoon in his reference to Europe—and here I return to the speech of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North, who will be surprised to hear that to some extent I agree with him—was that he had nothing new to offer. All he said was that the application still stood.
  The application can stand and will have to stand for five, six, seven, or eight years and possibly longer before anything is done about our membership of the E.E.C. As one who has supported British membership of the E.E.C. since long before it became popular jargon between the two sides of the House, I regret this, but one has to recognise the fact. But this does not alter the fact that if we are seriously pursuing a European policy in both foreign affairs and defence, there are whole aspects of policy which we should be trying to pursue, and we do not seem to be doing so. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North mentioned some of them. I think that great difficulties are involved in most of the suggestions that he made.
  As regards E.F.T.A., well and good. Let us try to develop it. However, we have to face the fact that, the minute we try to develop E.F.T.A., we shall come up against the agricultural problem. I do not regret that, because it would be a good thing if we did, if only because it

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  would stimulate a review of our own obligations in agricultural matters. But if anyone imagines that the Danes, for example, will develop E.F.T.A. purely industrially and not have some kind of wider access to our agricultural markets, he is deluding himself. The development of E.F.T.A. brings in a whole new complex, but I would like to know whether the Government have considered that.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the suggestions made, apparently, as an aside by General de Gaulle at his Press conference and now taken up by Gaullist speakers at Strasbourg and, according to rumour, by the German Government, about a possible industrial free trade area between E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C. I would be surprised if this one was a runner, if only because we have tried it before. It was what the Maudling Committee was all about in 1958 and 1959, and it did not get very far. I cannot believe that General de Gaulle has done a 180 degree turn on that one and is now prepared to allow us all the advantages of an industrial free trade area which are to our benefit, without the disadvantages of an agricultural free trade area, which are entirely to his.
  Mr. Jay: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that General de Gaulle, on the evidence of his own statements, might be willing to make a trade agreement of this kind if thereby he could avoid a lot of new members entering the ruling bodies of E.E.C? There might be features in such a bargain which were of benefit to both of us.
  Mr. Kirk: If he could avoid both options, he would do so, but I cannot see why he should be anxious to make a trade agreement entirely to the disadvantage of France, which will also find itself disadvantaged by the Customs Union coming into effect on 1st July. By all means, let us pursue that, but let us not pursue it in the hope that anything will come of it, because I do not think that it will.
  Then we have the suggestion of a North Atlantic free trade area, which is a very popular idea these days. Has the right hon. Gentleman or anyone else any evidence that the United States has the slightest interest in such an arrangement? For my sins, I have spent some time in
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  the United States during the last few months, and I have asked everyone about it. I have been told that Congress, so far from being prepared to sanction any such arrangement, is becoming more protectionist by the hour and that, if we are not careful, all the beneficial effects of the Kennedy Round will be undone by domestic legislation in the United States. I cannot believe that there is any point in pursuing any arrangement, especially in an election year in the United States, which will harden its line on arrangements which we have already made and make it impossible to make any future ones.
  I know the right hon. Gentleman's views on the Common Market. We have debated it before in this House and outside, and we shall never agree. But that is not the only reason why we are in this present mess, and there are ways and means whereby we can get some sort of sensible European policy. I regret that the Foreign Secretary did not refer to them today.
  What are the alternatives? At Guildhall, on 13th November, the Prime Minister put forward a set of proposals for a technological community. I do not know whether it is within the Commonwealth Secretary's brief, but I hope that someone will tell us more about this during the course of the debate, because it is important that we should be told what is happening about the proposal. Do the Government intend to pursue it by a detailed application to the Six member States and the States of E.F.T.A., or has the Prime Minister made the offer in these vague terms in his Guildhall speech, leaving it up to the other Governments to decide whether they want to discuss it? I believe that the idea has a great deal of merit, but I can see certain disadvantages and obstacles to it which may be crucial.
  I cannot believe that the concomitant to it, Signor Fanfani's idea of technological Marshall aid will appeal very much to the Americans. I doubt whether they could do much about it, anyway, because it depends so much upon what American private industry is prepared to do. A stronger objection is that so much will depend upon the harmonisation of patent and taxation laws of the countries within the Community, and the Six themselves are so advanced along these lines

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  that it might be difficult to get in without being a member of the Community as well. It may be impossible to create a technological community without our entry into E.E.C.
  Another suggestion which is worth following up and bears rather more on the main theme of this debate is whether, if we are now seriously to become a European defence Power, which appears to be the purport of the Foreign Secretary's speech, we should not be reconsidering our defence and political arrangements with Europe. We have taken for granted for far too long that, provided we maintain a substantial body of troops in Germany doing nothing, we are making our contribution to the alliance. But that is not true. It is very weakening to the economy, and it is not contributing anything in real terms to the defence of this country, though it contributes something in terms of foreign policy in our relations with the Federal Republic.
  As one of two Governments forced by their freely entered into obligations to maintain troops in Europe, we ought to be approaching the other Governments of the alliance to see whether the strategic plan for Europe is right and whether we need these troops stationed in Europe. Would it not be better for us in N.A.T.O. to ask if we have got the strategy right, and might we not do better with smaller numbers of more mobile troops on the Continent for firefighting operations, so to speak, and with bigger reserves at home, though the Government have abolished reserves in this country, and, above all, a proper defence plan for what is now the soft area of Europe, the Mediterranean?
  Again, I hoped to hear more from the Foreign Secretary about what our plans are for the Mediterranean area. Are we to put back troops in Malta and a fleet in the Mediterranean, and are we to react to the presence of the Soviet fleet in the Mediterranean, or will we leave it to the Americans, as we have in other areas? That is what I wanted to hear from the Foreign Secretary but, alas, we did not hear it.
  I am driven to the conclusion that the Government have no foreign policy. They are reacting to events, domestically and outside, with a series of improvisations
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  which has proved disastrous and left us with no defence outside Europe and precious little in it, and no influence anywhere.
  It may be that hon. Members below the Gangway opposite will want to talk about Vietnam in this debate. They must realise, if they do, that whatever view one takes of it—and possibly I take a different one from them, at any rate about the American presence there—there is nothing that we can do to influence the United States about Vietnam, whether we want to or not. At the moment, we cannot influence anyone, even in Europe.
  If we are serious about a change of emphasis in our defence and foreign policies, we need some concrete proposals about how it is to be worked out. We have had nothing today, and, because we have had nothing, I shall join with my right hon. and hon. Friends in voting against the Government tomorrow night.
  6.9 p.m.
  Mr. David Winnick: I hope that the House will excuse me if I confine myself to one single topic of foreign affairs today, namely, the situation in Vietnam. The hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk) asked whether any useful purpose could be served by having a debate on this subject. I believe that there are three main reasons why it should be raised by hon. Members tonight.
  First, we have some responsibility as one of the co-chairmen of the Geneva Conference. Secondly, the Vietnam war, apart from the possibility of further escalation, is without doubt causing an obstruction to the various possibilities of agreement in areas well away from South-East Asia. Thirdly, even if the first two reasons did not exist, I believe that the sheer horror, brutality and loss of life in Vietnam to be a sufficient reason why the House should not be indifferent to the war taking place there.
  I do not accept the common assumption shared by some hon. Members—mainly on the other side—that the war in Vietnam was caused by Communist aggression from the north and that, if this aggression had not taken place in 1959 or 1960, there would have been no

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  need for the Americans to have intervened. Without doubt, much of the responsibility for the loss of lives in Vietnam rests with the French. Had the French at the end of the Second World War shown a willingness to negotiate and shown some awareness of the immediate post-war situation, it is possible that in 1945 or 1946 the French Government of the time could have come to an agreement with the Ho Chi Minh Communists and Nationalists.
  The French refused to negotiate. They were determined to win back this part of Indo China and occupy it in the same way as they did before the beginning of the Second World War. So, for seven long bloody years, the French waged war against the Viet Minh. I would ask this question of those who today condemn the Vietcong and say that they are the people who are fighting a wrong cause and not representative of the Vietnamese people in the south: were the Viet Minh wrong in fighting the French from 1947 to 1954 for the liberation of their country?
  I believe that the historians are already coming to the conclusion that the Viet Minh waged a legitimate battle against the French, and that it is possible in the years ahead, when this war has come to an end, that it will be agreed that the Vietcong were as much in the right as the Viet Minh were in fighting against the French.
  Mr. Frank Hooley (Sheffield, Heeley): I think that my hon. Friend is inaccurate in one respect. The French did make an agreement and they subsequently broke it. The same thing happened again in 1954.
  Mr. Winnick: With respect to my hon. Friend, it shows the point I was trying to make. The French were not willing to come to a proper agreement and observe it at the time with the Ho Chi Minh Communists and Nationalist supporters. After 1954 when the French were defeated and after the Geneva Conference, when Vietnam was divided into two parts, the Americans repeated all the mistakes of the French. If the Americans had been willing to learn from the mistakes of the French and had been willing to see genuine reforms carried out in the south, I believe that this civil war would never have taken place.
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  If there was a Communist plot—and I do not believe that there was—being organised by the Government of North Vietnam, the manner in which the Americans and their puppet régime carried on after 1954 played right into the hands of such plotters.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: I think that my hon. Friend would agree that, in fact, the Americans were backing up the French before Dien Bien Phu and in 1954 had sent in 1 billion dollars worth of military aid to support the French colonialists.
  Mr. Winnick: I do not necessarily disagree with my hon. Friend.
  After 1954, the Dien régime was as corrupt régime which showed no interest in genuine reform or changes. We all remember the characters connected with it: the various relatives of the president and his notorious sister-in-law, Madame Nu. We know what happened. Most of the family were assasinated by anti-Communists.
  It is remarkable that there should be right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in Britain who are determined to defend the American line of policy in Vietnam. Last Saturday, Republican Senator George Aitken was reported in the Senate as saying that he accused the American Government of having unwarrantedly designated the war as one against world Communism. He went on to say that to picture the Vietcong and North Vietnamese as integral parts of a unified and monolithic world Communism was "simply a self-destructive fantasy". He said that the enemy in Vietnam were, first of all, Nationalists; that some call themselves Communists is important, but not vital.
  General Shoup, a former commander of the American Marine Corps—not, to the best of my knowledge, a Communist front organization—went so far as to describe the President's contention that the Vietnam war was vital to U.S. security interests as "pure unadulterated poppycock". He insisted that the conflict posed no threat to the United States and was civil war between "those crooks in Saigon" and Vietnamese Nationalists seeking a better life.
  With permission of the House, I should like to quote what appeared in a report in The Guardian on 8th August, 1967, a

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  report which had been carried by the New York Times by that newspaper's own correspondent in Vietnam. Their correspondent writes as follows:
  'What it needed is someone who can seriously make the same claim on the loyalty of the people as Ho Chi Minh does in the North. Without that there can be nothing. The Americans will never understand, but it is obvious that the problem is not military but political, not American but Vietnamese."
  He went on to say, in his report in the New York Times:
  "We have more of everything military—more bombing, more troops, more money—yet the situation does not change. This can be explained only in terms of the population's indifference. or even hostility, to Saigon."
  So much for the myth that what the Americans are doing in South Vietnam is waging a war in that country for peace and democracy. It is not true. It is a myth.
  I turn to the question of the bombing of the North. The bombing started nearly three years ago. I said in the House—and I know that some hon. Members at the time disagreed with my remarks—that when President Johnson stated that the bombing of the North was only concerned with bombing military targets and installations, that that was a lie. I repeat it today. I believe that the American Government and the American President lied when they said that they were concerned only with bombing military installations and military targets in the North.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Mr. Deputy Speaker, is it in accordance with the customs of the House of Commons that one accuses the Head of State of a friendly allied Government of lying?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The tradition of the House is that right hon. and hon. Members are responsible for such statements as they make to the House. This is not a matter for the Chair.
  Mr. Winnick: I only wish that those who are concerned about my words referring to the American President could show die same concern for the victims of American bombing. I believe that many of the targets of American bombing have been the civilian population. The total number of bombs dropped by the Americans exceeds that employed by them during the whole of the Second
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  World War. By March of last year 77,000 tons of bombs had been dropped on the North. Hon. Gentlemen opposite were somewhat bothered about my remark a few moments ago——
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: That will not worry the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Winnick: I do not make these remarks lightly. I believe that we should be as much concerned with the bombing of North Vietnam as hon. Members were before the Second World War when the Germans were doing their bombing of Spain.
  In a report in the Sun of 18th November, 1967—and this has not been challenged or denied by any American official—their correspondent, a Swedish journalist, said:
  "Missiles and bombs from American planes took their toll today in a heavily populated district of Hanoi. I saw eight bodies in a shack shortly after the raid. In the very heart of North Vietnam's capital, one missile hit the headquarters of the International Control Commission. One Indian was killed, another wounded."
  He then went on to speak about anti personnel bombs being used by the Americans. This is a very interesting report.
  On 2nd November, 1967, The Guardian carried a report headed, "Pellet bombs cause mounting hatred for U.S. in Hanoi," and said:
  "One hundred and twenty-five people were wounded by the latest American raids on Hanoi. It does not seem many, but when you later meet a couple of dozen of them lying in hospital beds the figure takes on new proportions. Most were victims of pellet bombs.
  Today I toured two hospitals here in Hanoi. The less severe cases had already been transferred elsewhere. I saw seven men in a row of beds who had all had stomach operations for abdominal wounds and for the removal of pellets. In some cases the pellets had to be left inside, but all seven were doing well.
  I also saw a 14-year old boy who was not doing so well—he had been in a coma for four days. And I saw a woman of 29 who had been caught by a pellet bomb in one of the one-man concrete cube shelters with her 2-year old daughter on her lap. The bomb rolled down on them and the child caught the brunt of the pellets and was killed. The mother survived—with her legs, back, and shoulders one mass of little wounds."
  Is it difficult to understand why there is mounting hatred in North Vietnam for what the Americans are doing? If that

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  is a lie, if it has been put across by Communist propaganda from Hanoi, why is it that no one from the United States Administration or United States Embassy has challenged it? I mean it when I say that I do not like saying that the truth of the matter is that not only has there been severe bombing in the last three years, but that the Americans have deliberately used a form of anti-personnel bomb to cause the maximum amount of suffering and death to the civilian population.
  I have a great love and affection for the United States as a country. I have relatives there who are dear to me. It gives me no pleasure to denounce United States policy in Vietnam in these terms. Despite what hon. Gentlemen opposite may say, I am not anti-American and never will be.
  As a critic of United States policy in Vietnam, what gives me so much satisfaction is that in the United States there is a growing volume of protest against their own Government's policies. It takes more courage than it does in Britain for people in America to go on to the streets and say that their country is in the wrong. I know that this has been done in Britain. We, too, have honourable traditions. One has read about the campaign waged by David Lloyd George and others against this country's policy at the time of the Boer War. In the United States today there is a growing body of opinion, perhaps a minority, which is ashamed and humiliated at what the Americans are doing in Vietnam.
  It has been said before, and I think rightly, that a nation which conducts a colonial war brutalises itself. We saw examples of this in France after the Second World War, during the Indo-China War and the Algerian War. A great deal of French public and private life became corrupt. It was due largely to the sort of colonial wars which they were waging. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that much of American society has been brutalised by the sort of colonial war which is now being waged in South-East Asia.
  Sir George Sinclair: Will the hon. Gentleman analyse the effect on the Soviet Union of its intervention in Hungary?
  Mr. Winnick: I do not know what Hungary has to do with this debate. If the hon. Gentleman is asking whether I was in favour of Russian intervention in Hungary, the obvious answer is "No". I believe that people have a right to self-determination. I would be the last to justify what the Russians did in Hungary. What is the hon. Gentleman trying to prove? Can America's action in Vietnam be excused by what the Russians did in Hungary?
  I do not wish to deviate from the debate, but I remember demonstrating against the Suez aggression, and those who demonstrated had a slogan "Hands off Suez. Hands of Budapest." I do not need to be lectured about Soviet intervention in Hungary.
  I have tried to set out, no doubt inadequately, my view of the reason for the war in Vietnam. The essential thing is to end the war by negotiation. I do not believe that the Americans can win. No matter how long they are involved there, be it for another two years, five years, or eight years, I do not believe that they can win, any more than the French could win before them, but I must say, and perhaps some of my hon. Friends will disagree with me, that I do not believe the other side can win either. The Communists can fight on, and will fight on, but they will never surrender, but they cannot, in my view, win the same kind of military victory against the Americans as the Viet Minh won against the French.
  After nearly 30 years of war against the Japanese, the French, and the Americans, there is a tremendous need for peace to come to that unhappy country. Some of my hon. Friends and I have said that if the Americans stop bombing North Vietnam there will be an opportunity for negotiations to take place. We have had the statement from the Foreign Secretary of the Government of North Vietnam. They have said that if the bombing stops there will be negotiations. If the Americans are keen to have negotiations, if there is this tremendous desire on their part to sit round the table and negotiate an end to the war, there should be some enthusiasm on their part to stop bombing and start negotiating, but the moment the Government of North Vietnam made their statement there seemed to be considerable hesitation on the American side. We were reminded of

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  the time that it took for negotiations to end the Korean War. Was it not better to negotiate than continue the war?
  Mr. Richard: My hon. Friend is putting forward a strong argument against the Americans. He should be accurate in his statements. The Korean War is apposite at the moment because the point made by the United States Government is that while negotiations were going on in Korea the war continued. That is die whole point. That is what they want to avoid.
  Mr. Winnick: Be that as it may, negotiations took place in Korea, and the war was brought to an end. I hope that if negotiations start in Vietnam—I admit that the matter is complex—they will not take so long to conclude.
  The point I am trying to make is that there is little enthusiasm on the part of the Americans to start the negotiations, despite the remarks made over the years, end certainly during die last few months, by President Johnson that if there was any sign from Hanoi that they wanted talks he would be willing to go anywhere, at any time, to start them. The reason for this is that the view is still held in Washington—I do not know whether it is held by the American President—that they can win an outright military victory, and if they continue for long enough, if they send in enough troops, and escalate the war still further, they will win. The Communists will never surrender, even if they have to keep fighting for another five, 10, or 15 years.
  I ask Her Majesty's Government to put every possible pressure on the United States to get them to stop the bombing so that negotiations can start. I do not want to go over the disagreement between a number of us and die Government over their policy with regard to Vietnam. It is no secret. I have long felt—and this view was shared by die Labour Party conference last year—that Britain should dissociate herself from American policy in Vietnam, but the most immediate need for the people of that country is for the war to stop.
  The Foreign Secretary said today that the Americans were exploring die possibility of negotiations taking place. If it appears that die Americans will refuse
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  to negotiate, if they refuse to stop the bombing, will Her Majesty's Government speak out publicly and condemn the refusal of the Americans to stop bombing, so that talks can begin? The people of Vietnam have a right to live in peace. They do not want to be occupied by foreign troops.
  We may have many disagreements with die kind of regime that exists in North Vietnam. I have never been a defender of dictatorships, and I never will be, but this is basically a nationalistic fight. I hope that the Americans will see sense. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will push the Americans into seeing sense, so that the bombing can stop, and at long last talks can begin to endthis horrifying and bloody war.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Gilmour: The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) never faced the point that even if everything he said were correct he would still be supporting a Government which had made it very much more difficult for this country to have any influence in the direction he was indicating. The Foreign Secretary said that we would be stronger as a result of the withdrawal of our troops, and that the British Council would move in, together with information services, and so on. This will not help the hon. Member with the problems that he referred to in Vietnam.
  The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) produced figures showing the economic fantasy of the Government's troop movements, and the expense of our troops in Europe. It is possible to agree with the right hon. Gentleman about our troops in Europe without sharing his views on the Common Market. Although our main interests lie in Europe it does not follow that our troops should be placed there. That is a sort of Maginot Line complex, and we all know what happened to the Maginot Line. Indeed, it is rather worse than the Maginot Line complex, because at least that was erected against the right enemy, even if it was in the wrong place.
  To have all our troops in Europe is not only to have them in the wrong place, but to have them ranged against the wrong enemy. It does not seem to me that the cold war is going on in the way

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  it was, or that there is any prospect of a war with Russia at present. It is conceded by my hon. Friends that a withdrawal at the right time would be defensible, but one carried out in the present circumstances seems to us to be totally wrong and very dangerous.
  The other day Mr. Harold Macmillan reminded us how, during the 1940s, Sir Winston Churchill talked about Cromwell as being so obsessed with the danger and the power of Spain that he completely neglected the rise in the power of France and the danger she presented. The parallel today is our being so obsessed with the danger of Russia that we fail to notice the distinctly dangerous tendencies of American policy both in the Middle East and the Far East.
  With the breaking up of the old certainties of the 1940s it is time Britain started following her own interests and not always worrying too much about the interests of the West. Our interests in the Middle East are quite plainly the opening of the Suez Canal and the maintenance of our oil investments and our trading relationships in the area. America is certainly following her interests in the Middle East, and her policy there does not seem to bear any relation to Western interests. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the balance has tilted towards Russia in the Middle East fairly recently, and this will be increased by our withdrawal, but the main reason is that the West, and America in particular, has contrived to get lined up with Israel, which necessarily pushes the Arabs into the hands of the Communists.
  This is obviously quite contrary to Western interests. If it continues we will get back to what happened in the 1940s, when a previous American Defence Sectary pointed out that American policy was guided far too much by electoral considerations. By wholeheartedly backing Israel at the moment President Johnson receives a double electoral boost. He gets a boost from the Jewish vote in New York over the Middle East. It also helps to moderate opposition to Vietnam, because a large part of the most enlightened intelligent and articulate section of the Democratic Party in America is Jewish, and is worried about Vietnam.
  It is dangerous that America should seem to be rather washing her hands of
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  the area, except electorally, and that it should be more or less agreed by nearly all Americans that nothing can be done in the Middle East until after the election. President Johnson seems to regard the Middle East rather as he regards the Middle West—as an area in which votes are to be sought and gathered.
  The re-election of President Johnson is not a British interest. Our interest lies in the opening of the Suez Canal, and I congratulate the Government and Lord Caradon on their resolution in the United Nations although I was surprised by the optimism shown by the right hon. Gentleman about that resolution. Unless the American attitude changes there does not seem to be any serious prospect of much happening to it. Israel is the only country whose interest lies in keeping the Canal closed, and America goes along with her either because she wants to stop Russia sending supplies to Vietnam through the Canal or because of electoral considerations. She does not seem to show very great interest in getting the Canal opened.
  Sir Barnett Janner: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that Israel is not prepared to open the Canal if international obligations are fulfilled and Israel is allowed—as other nations are allowed—to go through the Canal? Does not he agree that she should be allowed to go through the Canal?
  Mr. Gilmour: I have not heard that the only condition for an Israeli withdrawal from the places that she now occupies is that she should be allowed through the Canal.
  Sir B. Janner: Nonsense.
  Mr. Gilmour: In the autumn the Arab States went very far in the direction of a peaceful and honourable settlement.
  Sir B. Janner: Who closed it?
  Mr. Gilmour: They accepted the resolution which the Indians and the Latin-American States were pressing in the United Nations, which eventually foundered on American indifference. It would have been based on the very reasonable compromise of free passage through the Gulf of Aqaba and Suez, the end of

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  belligerence and a recognition and guarantee of frontiers—which are entirely legitimate Israeli demands—in return for an Israeli withdrawal and a resettlement of refugees—which are entirely legitimate Arab demands.
  It will be an extraordinary frivolity on the part of the Americans if this chance of a settlement—which was there and may still be there—is thrown away simply because the Americans cannot bring themselves to persuade the Israelis to accept it. From the American point of view, that settlement is as much as they could want.
  Israel, apparently, would like more territory. The colonisation that is going on in Jordan is appalling, as is the razing of villages to the ground. It is high time that the Americans realised that they cannot elsewhere support self-determination and the freedom of people to choose their own destiny and then see it denied to the Arabs merely because it is the Israelis who are denying it.
  Sir B. Janner: Nonsense.
  Mr. Gilmour: If the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) thinks that annexation of Jerusalem, which is 100 per cent. Arab—and every person in Jerusalem would be against its being annexed—is not an outrageous and flagrant denial of the principle of self-determination, I do not know what he thinks is.
  Sir B. Janner: Would the hon. Gentleman say who first annexed any part of Jerusalem?—[Laughter.] I mean in recent years.
  Mr. Gilmour: If the hon. Gentleman thinks back, he will remember that, after the war, the Israelis annexed what had been Moslem land for about 1,300 years.
  I find the rights and wrongs of Vietnam difficult to sort out and I am not reassured about American motives there by the way in which they treat the Middle East. But it is no good their fighting in South Vietnam in defence, apparently, of the South Vietnamese right to rule themselves and decide their own future it", at the same time, they are allowing their protegés, the Israelis, to deny those fundamental and elemental rights of self- determination to the Arab States——
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Would the hon. Gentleman——
  Dr. M. S. Miller (Glasgow, Kelvin-grove): On a point of order. Would you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, ask the hon. Gentleman to speak up, since we cannot hear him?
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: I can. Would the hon. Gentleman——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. Did the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) hear the point of order, that an hon. Member in another part of the House could not hear what he was saying?
  Mr. Gilmour: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was giving way to the hon. Lady the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mrs. Anne Kerr).
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the Americans have completely changed their argument about why they are in Vietnam at all? They were saying that they were there to provide for the freedom of the South Vietnamese and have now completely changed their tune and are saying that in this way they can better contain Communism.
  Mr. Gilmour: I am sorry, but I did not hear what the hon. Lady said.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the Americans have changed their argument, in that they were saying that the reason for their being in Vietnam at all and taking part in the aggression against certain Vietnamese was because they were there to defend the freedoms of the Southern Vietnamese? They have now completely altered their line of attack and now say that they are there to contain Communism in South-East Asia and admit quite other reasons for their presence in the region. Yes or no?
  Mr. Gilmour: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but I was not aware that they had changed their argument in that way, although they may have added another one to it.
  I think that my argument is still true. If the hon. Member for Leicester, Northwest, who is a respected spokesman for Zionism, objects to what I am saying, and will repudiate any idea of the further denial of self-determination and say that it is contrary to the wishes of the ideas of the Zionist movement of Great

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  Britain, he would make a significant step towards peace——
  Mr. R. T. Paget: In all conscience, if 60 million people deliberately set out to exterminate 2 million and get a hiding, and the 2 million get better frontiers, what has determination got to do with it? The people within those frontiers can go somewhere else if they do not like the Government which they now have.
  Mr. Gilmour: If the hon. and learned Member thinks back, he will remember that the 2 million attacked for the second time in 11 years, which is quite frequent. The hon. and learned Gentleman, we know, is constant in that he has certain ideas about Rhodesia which are not shared by other hon. Members on that side.
  The general idea is that subject peoples should not be treated in certain ways, but an exception is made in the case of the Arabs. If the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West will say, when he speaks, exactly how far he thinks this principle of self-determination should be extended to the Arabs, that would be a significant step forward——
  Sir B. Janner Sir B. Janner rose——
  Mr. Gilmour: I think that I have given way enough.
  The West cannot seriously resist the charge of arrant hypocrisy unless it applies the same standards to Palestine and the surrounding countries in the Middle East as it does to the Far East and Africa. It is high time that the double standards which are general in the Press and many parts of the House were abolished and all people treated the same.
  In any event, unfortunately, because of the Government's policies, it is unlikely that we shall have much influence in the Middle East or in the Far East. My hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk) said that the Government had decided their policy in panic and had merely reacted to events. It is perhaps a compliment to them, since the events to which they reacted were non-events, inside their own party. However, as my hon. Friend said, the Government have no foreign policy at the
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  moment, and that is why we will vote against them tomorrow.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Richard: I am glad that the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) is still present, because I want to take up one point which seemed to be central to the first part of his argument. He was attacking the Government for their decision to withdraw from the Gulf on the basis that our Gulf commitments were essential now not merely to stability in the Middle East, but to the defence of Europe.
  One interesting fact which I would have thought tended to militate against this point is that no other European nation seems to agree with him. I do not believe that we have a monopoly of self-preservation. If it is an impelling emotion for us making us more perceptive of the Russian threat, then it would make other European nations just as perceptive of the same danger, but I have read nothing recently to show that European statesmen regard our withdrawal from the Middle East as in some way deterimental to European security.
  I listened with interest, as I always do, to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick), who spoke with his accustomed force. Although I always enjoy listening to him because of the vigor and tenancity with which he puts his point, surely it is an incredible waste of time, in the middle of a foreign affairs debate at this time for this country, to devote no less than 25 minutes to attacking the policy of the United States in Vietnam. Surely the one thing on which almost everyone in the House is agreed is that our influence over what is going on in Vietnam is quite extraordinarily diminutive.
  I should, therefore, like to turn to what seems to be the main theme of the debate, for it is, after all, a continuation of the series of debates which we had last week. We should be discussing tonight what Britain's position in the world will be not merely for the next few years, but perhaps until the end of the century. As we move into the final quarter of the 20th century, what we must all consider is what sort of a world we will move into, what dangers

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  there will be for us and other nations, and how best we can fit into that world.
  When I was deciding whether to speak in this debate, I pondered for a moment on the position in October, 1964. If, on 5th October, 1964, an intelligent Martian had descended in his space ship, been shown a map of the world and told that here was a series of geographically small islands, 22 miles off the coast of Europe, called the islands of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that, in the interests of that comparatively small group of islands, it was necessary for them to have troops stationed (moving from right to left across this hypothetical map of the world) in Hong Kong, Borneo, Singapore, Malaya, Thailand, Australasia, the Pacific, the Indian Ocean, Nepal, Aden, South Arabia, the Gulf, Libya, Cyprus, Malta, Gibralta, Western Germany, the South Atlantic, the Caribbean, the Arctic and, I believe, Antarctica, our intelligent Martian could have been forgiven for asking "Why?".
  If he had then been told that none of our major industrial competitors, with whom we were competing bitterly in the hope of increasing our share of world markets, found it necessary to do the same, and that our national interests had lo be safeguarded by our maintaining a defence budget higher, in relative terms, than any of our major industrial competitors of comparable size, he would have asked, "Why, oh why?" He would have wondered, for example, why it was necessary for Britain to be a member of the three great global defensive alliances, N.A.T.O., CENTO and S.E.A.T.O, while Western Germany, our major industrial competitor, found it necessary to be a member of only one, and that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
  He would have wanted the answers to these questions because they are the fundamental queries raised by this debate. During the last three years the Government have been trying to answer them in a coherent and meaningful way. If the Martian had asked those questions before October, 1964 the answers he would have got would have been incredibly unclear. Thus, the exercise which the Government have been engaged in carrying out over the last three years has been a difficult one, but an inevitable and right one for
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  them to be performing. It has been the exercise of trying to relate our military expenditure to a deliberately chosen set of policy objectives, and, at the same time, to keep it within the limits which the nation can afford. Those are the principles on which the topic should be approached.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: That Martian might have asked what a small country like Great Britain got out of the Persian Gulf and what its industrial competitors got out of it. When he got the answer—that its competitors got nothing while we got a lot—he would probably have considered that to be a reasonable explanation.
  Mr. Richard: The hon. Gentleman has answered the question to his own satisfaction. Perhaps he will forgive me if I now try to answer it to the satisfaction of the Martian.
  If one applies the principle which I just put—namely, that one should try to relate one's military expenditure to one's foreign policy objectives within the limits of what the nation can afford—one can see how it works out. Take, for example, Aden. We have been bitterly attacked in the last year or so for the deliberate decision of the Government to withdraw from the base in Aden. I believe that the decision was absolutely right, and I can think of no national interest which Britain was serving by maintaining its garison in the Port of Aden—the main purpose of which was to defend itself from no less than two nationalist organisations, both of which were shooting at it and at each other at the same time.
  If the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) is wondering what national interests we have, I suggest that there are three main ones. The first is the survival of Britain as a nation State. To maintain Britain, and its survival, as a nation State, I do not believe that the economic argument plays a large part. I suggest that there would be little argument against the proposition that, to survive, one first does what is needed for survival, and then one adds up the cost and pays the bill, whatever it might be.
  The second—this is not so critical and vital a national interest—is that one

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  wants to look after one's economic well-being; for example, to protect one's investments. The third national interest to try to maintain is the ability to influence patterns of world events in other parts of the globe.
  Those, therefore, are the interests which any nation must consider. Weighed against those three—survival, economic interests and the power to influence world events—it seems that the decisions which the Government have taken during the last three years have been absolutely right and sensible. I say that for three reasons. The first is because we were spending more than we could afford in pursuit of our foreign policy objectives. The second is because in October, 1964, our foreign policy objectives were too diffuse and unclear. The third is because the decisions that have been taken, in foreign policy terms, have, by and large, been sensible in that we have cut out a number of inessentials and are trying to relate our interests to what we can afford.
  The hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk) said that the timing of decisions was important. I agree with this. Timing is extremely important when considering this problem of how one withdraws from certain parts of the globe. I admit that the latest set of decisions, particularly over Singapore, appear to be hurried. I accept the argument which is being put by some hon. Gentlemen opposite and certain people outside that the timing of the withdrawal from Singapore has been over-hasty. This is an area where we were known, where we were wanted and where we had helped in the recent past. It is an area where we could help again.
  I do not see what is the overriding national interest for Britain—and this is the test—which demands that we should leave Singapore by 1971 rather than by 1975. The additional expenditure on those three or four years would be comparatively small, yet the return on that investment might be great. That is why I regard this as a somewhat precipitate decision and one which I do not particularly favour, because the presence that we have in South-East Asia does give us an influence which we would not otherwise have.
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  It is all very well for some of my hon. Friends to complain about American policy in Vietnam. They have strong views and I have heard them expressed on numerous occasions, both inside and outside the House. However, one way in which we will never be able to influence what goes on in South-East Asia is if we withdraw totally from that area. One way in which we will never be able to say to the United States, "We disagree with what you are doing. Change your policy", and have at least some sanction for it, is if we totally withdraw from the area of the world most concerned.
  Mr. Rose: Does not what my hon. Friend is saying conflict with what one of my hon. Friends said earlier, that we have no influence in this area although we have troops there?
  Mr. Richard: I do not want to give away what little we have. I want to make my hon. Friends face up to the reality of the situation, which is that, by withdrawing from South-East Asia, we will not be in a stronger position to influence the policy of the United States, with which they disagree, but we will be weaker.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose——
  Mr. Richard: My hon. Friend has been interrupting well all afternoon. She will forgive me, I hope, if I complete my speech without any assistance from her.
  South-East Asia is an area which is potentially extremely dangerous to our economic interests and. possibly, to our survival. I do not believe, for example, that if there was a Sino-American confrontation in Asia which turned nuclear. Europe would be able to remain neutral. For I do not believe that if bombs were to be used in the Far East, Europe could wash its hands of the whole affair and say, "We are not interested or concerned."
  I regret, that we seem to have given the impression of wanting to get out of the area precipitously. At present, we have a reasonable chance of influencing the pattern of events in this part of Asia, at least in Singapore and Malaysia. That will not be the case after our withdrawal.
  To sum up then, the Opposition are not facing up to the realities of Britain in

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  the final quarter of the 20th century. We are a comparatively small nation in size, but a gifted and a rich one. In international terms, we are not large and, therefore, the aspect which we must face is that of applying such power as we have in the right place, at the right time and in the right quantity. I therefore support the deliberations which the Government have been carrying out during the last three years, an exercise which is designed precisely to bring that state of affairs about.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. Dennis Walters: I agreed with many of the remarks of the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard), although I did not agree with his peroration, since the whole point at issue is that, given that we should maintain our influence in the world, how best should we maintain that influence? My right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) so effectively indicated that Singapore and the Persian Gulf are two such areas.
  I was very surprised by what the Foreign Secretary said about the visit made to the Persian Gulf by the Minister of State. Anyone who knows anything about that area knows perfectly well that the assurances given by the Minister of State on his visit in November were taken very seriously by the Governments there, just as the somersualt that he had to perform on his second visit to the Gulf caused a considerable amount of shock and deep surprise.
  I was astonished that the Secretary of State for Defence should have referred to the Gulf Rulers as he did on television the other night. As my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk) has already said, there is no question of our being mercenaries. Are we mercenaries in Germany? If the Rulers wish to share in the cost of maintaining troops there, I think that this would be of great advantage to the area and to Great Britain. It was an extremely foolish and irresponsible thing to be said by the Secretary of State—a man who, after all, if he had conformed to the normal decencies of public life, should have been announcing his resignation. The cost involved in the area is negligible compared with our economic interests there. This was not an economic decision but a
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  political decision taken for highly questionable motives.
  I turn now to the unresolved conflict between Israel and the Arab States. In our one-day debate in November I pointed out that for Israel the most lasting and positive outcome of the June war was that she could finally achieve recognition by most of the Arab countries; that, although the Arab countries had been decisively defeated, they are preponderant in numbers and, in the long run, in resources, so that this recognition was essential.
  Recognition and security had been the two most important stated Israeli objectives. At last, it seemed that both were in sight of being obtained—recognition by the Arab countries, together with a great Power guarantee of the pre-June war frontiers, with the presence of a United Nations force guaranteed by the great Powers—about which my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire had spoken when he opened the November debate.
  I said that if this could be achieved it would be a gain of fundamental and permanent value; one which would not only give Israel long term security but give a promise of peace and stability to the area. It could even open up between Israel and her Arab neighbours an era of economic co-operation of great mutual benefit. Compared with this, the acquisition of more Arab land, although it might give an unjustified feeling of strategic security, could be of only ephemeral advantage.
  It was the Israeli pre-emptive air strike which decided the war in June; it could easily be a pre-emptive air strike from the other side at a later date that could decide another war. Should events occur in that way, a few extra miles of territory acquired would count for nothing.
  I believe that these facts remain profoundly true today, but, regrettably, I cannot see any indication whatever in the couple of months since that debate that Israel has been conducting her policy in order to achieve such an objective.
  Sir B..Tanner: Does the hon. Member suggest that the kind of heavy artillery and other armament that was used on the Golan Heights should again be put there against the small kibbutzen in the valley? Is he suggesting that the orders that were given to destroy every man, woman and

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  child in the various kibbutzen should again be made possible of accomplishment by Israel releasing to her enemies places of such strategic importance?
  Mr. Walters: I am suggesting that if there were an opportunity at this stage to reach a compromise solution, and if the Arab countries had given recognition to Israel, which is what she was seeking, plus a Great Power guarantee of the pre-June frontiers, the dangers adumbrated—although I do not accept all the implications behind the remarks of the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner)—would no longer exist.
  An agreement was possible, because the fact that both President Nasser and King Hussein had indicated a willingness to compromise and negotiate presented Israel with the best chance of reaching a settlement that she has ever had—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] A great many statements have been made by King Hussein over here and at the United Nations, and also by Egypt, but Israel has rigidly adhered to a position which, although theoretically perfectly tenable—that is, that there should be no discussions or concessions of any kind unless full peace negotiations are initiated round the table with the Arab leaders—a position which she knows perfectly well has made it as difficult as possible for the Arab countries to accede to.
  Moreover, the Israeli Government have laid down in advance that the status of Jerusalem is not negotiable; has been obstructive over the Suez Canal ships; utterly intractable on the question of repatriation of the refugees from the east bank and has continued with the colonisation of the west bank. Why should Jerusalem not be negotiable—
  Sir B. Janner: To whom?
  Mr. Walters: Jerusalem is immensely important to both sides. It is immensely important to the Jews but, one should recognise that it is immensely important to the Arabs, too. It has been argued that no Israeli Government could survive a major concession over Jerusalem, but it could be argued with equal validity that no Arab Government could survive a major concession over Jerusalem. Perhaps it is as well to remember that the person who has expressed himself in the most adamant terms over Jerusalem is
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  King Feisal of Saudi Arabia, in his capacity as Guardian of the Holy Places. An international status for Jerusalem, on the basis of the United Nations recommendation of 1947, is perhaps the only solution that could be found and that could still be negotiated.
  Any suggestion that has been made—and suggestions have been made recently by the Egyptians of their willingness to allow the ships to leave the Suez Canal—have been sabotaged by the Israelis, who have stated that they, too, should be involved in all the pre-negotiations, thereby making it as difficult and as humiliating as possible to reach an agreement.
  Of the more than 250,000 new refugees who were forced to leave their homes and take refuge on the east bank as a result of the June war only a few thousand have been allowed back, in spite of repeated assurances to the contrary, and the many public relations exercises aimed at indicating that refugees in substantial numbers would be allowed to return if they applied to do so. The grim plight of the refugees on the east bank became dramatic as some hon. Members who have visited them from both sides of the House had warned with the coming of winter. We saw in the Press some of the terrible pictures of the Souf Camp, when it was hit by floods.
  A study made by the Department of Sociology of the American University in Beirut clearly showed that an overwhelming majority of the refugees wished to return if they could get permission. The study found that out of 100 refugee families questioned over a month in a typical camp 75 per cent, indicated that they would return if only they could be allowed to do so.
  In the meantime, the colonisation of the west bank has continued. Not only have there been new Zionist settlements, but several more Arab villages have been razed to the ground. On 30th November The Times reported that Jiftliq had been completely destroyed. I shall quote two or three passages from the report. It says:
  "During the past two weeks, bulldozers have levelled the 800 abode brick and concrete buildings of the village of Jiftliq leaving a pile of dust and rubble that stretches for more than a mile…Its prewar inhabitants were Arab peasants, mostly refugees from the 1948 war, who tilled the fertile farmland in the

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  valley…unoccupied houses in the neighbourhood, according to Mr. Jeffery Cassels, the west bank director of U.N.R.W.A.
  'I was unable to protest against the demolition of the village because it is not an U.N.R.W.A. project', he said.' Some of the people who lived in the village received food from us but they had built the houses themselves. Had the village been one of our camps, I would have done everything possible to stop the destruction."
  From the west bank there have been some savage attacks launched on the east bank. The Economist on 9th December described the shelling of Karameh as follows:
  "This is a refugee camp of 1948 vintage that hitched itself to the landscape and became quite a flourishing Jordan valley town. It was here on the afternoon of November 20th that children, coming out of school, were caught in the splinter fire of Israeli mortars. These were aimed with deadly precision, right clown the main street, hitting the police post, the ration centre, the girls' school, came heavyweight high-fragmentation anti-personnel bombs. Western military attaches attest to this and to the scientific accuracy of the attack. The death roll of children and adults was higher than at Samu, the Jordanian west bank village that took the rap last year of Syrian-inspired attacks on Israel—out of whose bitterness escalated the full Arab-Israel war."
  It is quite obvious from all this that the situation on the west bank is deplorable just as the conditions of the refugees on the east bank are an intolerable outcome of the June war. In contrast to the awful reality of the conditions of the refugees and of life on the west bank, with houses being demolished, villages bulldozed and Arabs arrested and deported, the following advertisement appeared in the Observer on Sunday. It was for Israeli Airlines and says:
  "You can add your little bit to the gaiety of nations by joining in a folk sing-up."
  It then goes on:
  "You can bring to life biblical place names, Jericho, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron and Nazareth."
  It ends by saying:
  "You can get to Israel in 4 hours."
  What possible right, except the right of blatant force, does Israel have to claim Jericho, Bethlehem, Hebron and, indeed, Jerusalem as parts of Israel? If this is an indication of the callous attitude of the Israeli authorities to the sufferings of the Arabs of Palestine I despair of a settlement being reached,
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  but I believe that there is still a chance if both sides are prepared to compromise. If the Israeli moderates will only assert themselves while the Arab leaders are pursuing a moderate and realistic policy there is still hope, but I believe that time is running out for the chance of achieving a settlement and a lasting peace.
  Of course, Israel lived many years of claustrophic encirclement; of course, she received many and violent verbal pro vocations before the June war and——
  Mr. Rose: The hon. Member refers to "verbal provocations". Is he aware that between 1948 and 1956 1,500 Israeli citizens were killed when they were going about their peaceful business and that this culminated in an attack on a school with hand-grenades?
  Mr. Walters: If the hon. Member had allowed me to conclude, I was about to say that there were many verbal provocations and also non-verbal provocations by Syria. He will not forget the punitive expeditions carried out by the Israelis in Jordan. Of course, the Arab attitude to Israel, although historically understandable, has often been foolish and unrealistic, but if Israel genuinely wishes to achieve a lasting settlement and not just short-term success the time has come for her to review her policy drastically and to stop behaving in the way she has behaved since her victory in June.
  It is certainly not in the interests of Britain or in the interests of the West that there should be a polarisation of forces in the Middle East, with Israel apparently totally associated with the West and the Arab countries increasingly and inevitably associated with the Soviet Union. To prevent this happening it is time that pressure was put on both sides to bring about a settlement which is acceptable and as just as circumstances will allow.
  Obsessed with Vietnam, President Johnson has seemed to neglect altogether this other crucial sphere of influence for the West. As the Western super-Power the United States has responsibilities which it just cannot shrug off—a degree of vision which seems to be woefully lacking is called for. Britain should never fail to remind the United States of this fact and also provide some vision of our own.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mrs. Margaret McKay: As the Middle East problem is still unresolved and critical, I propose to confine my remarks also to that issue. First, I congratulate the Government on the resumption of diplomatic relations with Egypt, and, further, on the unanimous adoption of the British sponsored resolution—unanimous including both sides—at the United Nations Security Council, designed to make possible a Middle East settlement.
  I think the House and the country will welcome these successes as indications of our improving relations with the Arab world, a trend we ought to follow for economic as well as for political reasons. It should be on record that in this problem of a Middle East conflict which affects our interests so vitally credit is due to the Arab States who, since the June war, have worked in a sober, constructive and realistic fashion for a political solution. They have welcomed and cooperated with the United Nations mediator to find a settlement which is just and honourable and which is on the principles of the United Nations Charter.
  As the Security Council resolution is British-inspired, it becomes our duty and it is very much to our interests to see that it is fully implemented to prevent the situation deteriorating. The recent war solved no problems. It only intensified the Arab sense of wrong. It intensified hatred and brought a new generation into the conflicts of their fathers. It greatly diminished the hopes of the Jewish immigrants in Palestine of ever living there in security and stability on normal relations with their neighbours.
  As sponsors of the Security Council resolution, the British Government are committed to its provisions. Therefore, we in particular must face this major question, what it is that Israel really wants. Is it normal relations with her neighbours in the Middle East that Israel wants?
  Sir B. Janner: Peace.
  Mrs. McKay: If she wants normal relations——
  Sir B. Janner: Will my hon. Friend allow me?
  Mrs. McKay: No. As a mild form of protest against all the sometimes hysterical interruptions which have been made whenever anyone has put the Arab case in the House, I propose not to give way to anyone, except to Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I can assure the hon. Lady that I shall not seek to intervene.
  Mrs. McKay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker—and it will be a waste of time if anyone else does. I repeat that as sponsors of the Security Council resolution our Government are committed to realising its provisions, and therefore we must face up to what it is that Israel really wants.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: A peace treaty.
  Mrs. McKay: Is it normal relations that Israel wants with the Middle East, or does she want to play the conqueror's rôle?
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: No.
  Mrs. McKay: If Israel wants the former, then it should not be difficult for Britain and the United Nations to convince her of the wisdom of accepting, and rapidly applying, the Security Council resolution, of withdrawing from the territories which she has occupied, including Jerusalem, and of settling the refugee problem in accordance with the very many United Nations resolutions down the last 20 years. But Israel's insistence on direct negotiations with the Arabs, while Arab lands are still occupied, must arouse our suspicions. We must be clear whether this demand is not in fact a smokescreen to cover Israel's intention of securing a military solution and of obliterating the scores of United Nations resolutions which down the years have called on Israel to permit the refugees to return to their own homes and their own lands.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: May I——
  Mrs. McKay: No. If Israel's intention is not a military solution, with dictated peace terms, then the United Nations Charter provides her with ample methods of coming to terms with the Arabs. Article 33 of the United Nations Charter provides as follows:
  "The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance

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  of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice."
  The Arabs have made their choice. They have made their choice through United Nations mediation. There seems no reason at all why Israel should not (Jo the same and why she should demand direct confrontation if her intentions are not aggressive. It may be recalled that he last world war, for example, ended without peace negotiations, treaties or recognitions, yet there is peace in Europe. I think that this can be a lesson that Israel should also consider.
  However, if Israel insists on a solution through military conquest, which is what some of us are convinced of—in fact it s what half the world is convinced of—she writes off any hope of a political and permanent solution, especially since, though Israel won the recent skirmish, she has not won a full-scale war and the Arab world is only marginally occupied and is very far indeed from being prostrate.
  Perhaps Israel does not really appreciate this, but I think that we have got to get it clear to her that the only alternative to implementing the Security Council resolution is, sooner or later, war. In fact, that war underground has already broken out, to a far greater extent than the West is aware of. Underground fighting will not win the war, but it will at least keep the issues before the world until the Arabs are ready to fight back. But none of us wants this solution.
  Therefore, let us look at the position of Israel in this situation. Israel is already an armed camp. She is an alien, self-created ghetto surrounded by 100 million of indigenous people whom she has taught to hate her. Israel must know that she can never hope to subdue them all and become military overlord of the Middle East. Time, as the Foreign Secretary has said, is not on anyone's side in the Middle East, but, if it is on anyone's side, then it is on the Arab's side and not on the side of Israel.
  The Arab States at the moment in relation to Israel are technically and militarily backward, but their natural potential is far vaster. Arab populations are teeming and multiplying rapidly.
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  Their major sources of wealth are flourishing and untouched by the war. The Arabs appreciate fully the urgency of accelerated industrial development, of enhanced educational standards, and their need to master the techniques of modern warfare. The Arabs have the means and they have the will to acquire these.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: Yes—Russian means.
  Mrs. McKay: Furthermore, the Arabs are now aroused by a new and blazing political consciousness which we on this side of the House in particular ought to appreciate, sympathise with, and support.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: That consciousness is a desire to annihilate Israel.
  Mrs. McKay: They are inspired by the vision of their self-determination, and they are learning by practice to act in unison to achieve their ends. Israel, on the other hand, although at present she enjoys a military advantage, has not solved her two main and fatal problems. One is, as has been pointed out, how to be accepted by her neighbours—and without that she cannot live forever.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: May I ask my hon. Friend one small question?
  Mrs. McKay: The second is how to resolve the severe social contradictions and economic instabilities of her form of regime. These are her internal problems, but, since they have a direct bearing on the peace of the world, on the stability of the Middle East, and on drawing us all into a world war, we should look briefly at Israel's position.
  Immediately before the June war, Israel was in the grip of a crisis of social contradictions and economic recession, the latter arising from the basically faulty artificial nature of her economy, dependent for survival largely upon foreign donations. This economic weakness, complicated by lack of long-term planning, last spring brought about an economic collapse and heavy unemployment, especially among the socially degraded Oriental Jewish immigrants. It caused workless demonstrations, window smashing, in the streets of Tel Aviv, and more immigrants were leaving Israel than immigrants were entering Israel.
  Mr. Raphael Tack: I shall cross the Floor if this goes on. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a place where we listen to opinions which we do not agree with.
  Mrs. McKay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am perfectly capable of writing my own speeches and I intend to give them as well.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: And of reading them.
  Mrs. McKay: I have a reason for reading this one—because of the interruptions to which every hon. Member who has put the Arab case has been subjected. I am adopting this attitude as a measure of self-defence, and I ask Mr. Speaker to bear with me. As I said, Israel, in the crisis of social contradictions and her economic collapse, required a diversion. We all know the answer to that one. The inflammatory oratory of certain Arab agitators, and the unfortunate brinksmanship of President Nasser, provided Israel with her grand excuse, her prepared-for excuse. And Israel struck.
  Today President Nasser is a sadder and wiser man. But Israel, despite her victory, has not solved but has intensified her own basic problems. Despite the £100 million donated to Israel from abroad, the weakness of her economy persists. Israel's economic position persists. Her heavy unemployment persists. In addition, she has something like £40 million to find to pay for the cost of the war, and if there is no peace she will have to maintain a battle order far larger than, in excess of and out of proportion to her natural resources. Also she will have the cost of the political domination and of holding down the people in the areas which she has occupied and responsibility for their maintenance. She will also have to expand her arms production at the cost of her living standards.
  In this situation, in the long-term interests of the Jewish people in general—and may I say that I think I am being a better friend to the Jewish people in what I am now saying than are some others, judging from the remarks made in this House—and in the interests of world peace, I hope it will be possible for our Government and the United
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  Nations to encourage Israel to see the wisdom of adopting, accepting and implementing the United Nations resolution.
  I wish to say briefly a few words about the refugees. A very moving statement has been made to the House about the conditions of the refugees. I have just left those camps—it was not my first visit—and it was tragic to see the people living there under nylon tents in this weather, the mothers bearing their children on the earth, suffering all kinds of diseases and having to dig slit-trenches round those flimsy tents to shelter themselves and their children from shelling from the Israeli side.
  I will not go further into this except to say that in the name of justice and humanity we should demand that the refugees are returned to their own homes in their own ancient lands. Meantime, as the United Nations and its components are the original authors of this problem, I think a little do-it-yourself help from the United Nations and individual countries would begin the flow of people into and out of Israel.
  We know that many Jewish displaced persons went to Israel as the second best choice because the countries of the West closed their doors to those unfortunate people at the end of the last world war. Those countries—America, Australia, Canada, the N.A.T.O. countries, New Zealand and others—should now, as a gesture to a solution of this problem, open their doors and allow every Jewish immigrant in Israel who wants to leave and go to those countries to do so. It should be a two-way traffic. The Jews who want to leave—there were more leaving before the June war than were entering—should be allowed free entry, and at the same time the Arab refugees should be allowed to return to their own homes. The Israeli authorities and the Zionist organisations should not discourage them from doing so if they want to leave.
  Meantime, as to those Arabs for whom it is not feasible that they should return after this long time, Israel must pay reparations in the same way that Germany paid reparations to Israel in almost similar circumstances. Where these reparations are insufficient, the United Nations and its agencies must assist financially in resettling the Arabs, but

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  first of all by getting them back home. As a democratic people who in the last world war fought alone at one period, risking our country and our lives against the creed of blood and race superiority, we cannot tolerate the argument that the return of the refugees to their own homes will impair the blood, race and religious purity of the Jewish immigrants. The tide of history is flowing against these closed, exclusive societies and towards the brotherhood of multi-racial communities.
  In this country we have not only fought for this principle. We have preached it and practised it. It is in the spirit of multi-racial brotherhood that the peace of the Middle East can be restored and stability achieved. We must not depart from this principle. We must see that the refugees are able to return to their own homes. We must encourage them to live together with the Jewish immigrants, not as subordinate citizens but with every right.
  Meantime we must bear in mind that unless the Arab world quickly obtains justice, she will turn from the West and seek friends elsewhere. China, for example, which is uninhibited by fears of world war, has no global commitments and has never recognised Israel, has been exploiting the Israeli-Arab conflict to her own advantage. The Soviet Union has her long-term sights on the area, and any ideas that she may have of encircling Europe and of pushing into Africa depend upon her close friendly relations with the Arab world. This policy she has been successfully pursuing.
  We must awake to the fact that it is particularly to our economic as well as our political interest to ensure that the Arabs at last receive their human, legal and just rights. Our interests and those of the Arab world are not contradictory. They are complementary. We can better assure our own economic advancement as well as stability in the world by ensuring that Israel in her own and everyone's interest concedes justice to the Arabs by implementing the British-sponsored resolution at the Security Council.
  7 38 p.m.
  Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe (Windsor): I hope that the hon. Member for Clapham (Mrs. McKay) will forgive me if I do not follow her very far in the speech which she
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  told us she wrote and which we heard her read. Like her, I am not entirely new to the problems of the Middle East. Like her, I have a very considerable sympathy for the Arab problems. But if the Arabs start a war on the battle-cry that Israel must be completely eliminated, and they lose the war, it is unreasonable to expect that they should get the same terms as they would have got if they had not started the war but had embarked upon ordinary negotiations.
  The Israelis for their part, as the hon. Member knows very well, have had every kind of paper guarantee—if I may put it like that—up till last June, and afterwards, from the United Nations, the United States, the British Government, and so on. But when they were attacked, the guarantee was, to put it mildly, defective.
  Until more guarantees are provided which give them a better degree of security, we can hardly blame the Israelis for wishing to retain the territory which they conquered by force of arms. I hope that negotiations will continue and that a satisfactory solution will result, but it is no good, with great respect to the hon. Lady, putting the Arab case 100 per cent, as she has done and completely ignore the appalling position in which the Israelis were placed by President Nasser and the rest of the U.A.R., who still hold the view that the ultimate goal is the elimination of Israel.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) rightly said that this two-day debate was a continuation of the debate which we had last week on the cuts. I have never wished to be in the shoes of the Foreign Secretary or his colleagues and I do not feel any envy for them now. They seem to have taken a series of most deplorable decisions with almost incredible irresponsibility which are quite unjustified on economic terms and, I think, on moral terms.
  They will very shortly have the worst of both worlds—which is not unusual for a Socialist Government—because the cuts as they effect the withdrawal from the Far East do not begin until two years' time. They have destroyed the credibility of the British Government; they have destroyed its credit. If Ministers destroy their own credibility and with it their own

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  credit, they inevitably destroy the confidence in the currency of their country, and that currency happens to be sterling.
  One cannot go back on commitments entered into, in some cases, six months ago and, in other cases, at little as 10 weeks ago and expect to be believed again. I have not much sympathy for the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, He did very well when he went to the Persian Gulf for the first time, but if I had been asked by the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary to go out again within six weeks and say to the Rulers there, "I am sorry, I did not mean it", I should, I hope, have said, "I am sorry, I am not going to do it. Send somebody else."
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Goronwy Roberts): I am
  sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to do me a disservice by oversimplifying this very difficult situation. May I assure him that when I went out in November, not only did I say that we would not stay for ever, but I very strongly warned and advised all the Rulers I met that they should immediately get together and prepare for a possibly early date for our withdrawal. When I went back in January, they received what I had to say on behalf of Her Majesty's Government with great understanding, which was remarkable in the circumstances.
  I will not for a moment disguise that they were in a state of dismay and some alarm, but the fact that I had put the position to them in November very fully and frankly was a great aid to very helpful discussions when I went there a few weeks ago. It is not true or fair to say that we went to the Gulf in November to say that we would stay for ever and then returned in January to say that we would withdraw overnight.
  Sir C. Mott-Raddyffe: The Minister will forgive me, but I never suggested, because I am not quite so ignorant as that, that he went in November to say that we should stay for ever. No Government ever suggested that. What I suspect he said in November was that we should stay for quite a long time. I accept what he says. But if he made it so clear in November, and if his warnings were so well understood, I wonder why, in the first place, he did not tell
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  the House at the time and, secondly, why the result of his second visit was received with such dismay, which is the word which he used himself. That I find very difficult to understand.
  Worse still, the Government have ignored the wishes of the Commonwealth—and the Labour Party is alleged to be the party which is so keen on Commonwealth interests. They have ignored, as I shall hope to prove, the basic elements of strategy. This is not a question of withdrawing troops because the Governments in question do not want them to stay: it is the absolute converse. When the sheikhs in the Gulf make an offer to pay for the retention of a British military presence, however small, after 1971, I find it very difficult and distasteful to understand why the Secretary of State for Defence should have been so peculiarly offensive on the television the other night.
  There was nothing offensive about the sheikhs' offer to pay in part for our military presence. One could add that what they were saying was, "We will take out a mortgage on the reimposition of the prescription charges for you". The prescription charges could have been paid for four times over had the Government had the courage and economic nous to accept the arms order of £240 million from South Africa.
  I should like to say a few words about Singapore. I find the Government's argument very difficult to understand on economic grounds. I agree with the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard). We are abandoning real estate worth about £1,000 million plus an enormous investment sum—I forget what it is, but it is staggering. Is the Foreign Secretary so certain that greedy eyes will not be cast at Singapore and Malaysia from Indonesia? Is he absolutely certain that the vacuum left by our withdrawal will be refilled by the United States? Is he certain that the trade which we shall lose by the vacuum so created will not be picked up by Japan and other competitors? Is he certain that the enormous unemployment which will be created, causing immense ill will and distress, will provide exactly the same atmosphere as before in our trading and commercial transactions?
  Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues do not mind about very

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  heavy unemployment in Singapore and Malaysia. They may feel in some curious way that we should get emotional only about the Africans and not about the Asians. Perhaps they believe that if a person's skin is black he is entitled to the utmost sympathy, whereas if it is yellow he is not. It is a very curious argument. Time and again we have speeches from right hon. Gentlemen opposite about the need not to cut aid to developing countries, particularly Commonwealth countries. We have tears of emotion. But by far the best and cheapest way to give aid is to provide stability. It is far more expensive to provide aid after stability has gone than pay the comparatively small sum involved in maintaining stability.
  I am sorry that the Secretary of State for Defence is not present; I know that he is to speak tomorrow. I find paragraph 13 of Command 3515 almost unbelievable. It states that
  "…we have assured "
  Malaysia and Singapore
  'and our other Commonwealth partners…that we shall retain a general capability based in Europe (including the United Kingdom) which can be deployed overseas as, in our judgment, circumstances demand…".
  If any student at the staff college wrote that kind of sentence, he would be sacked, and rightly. How are we to retain a general capability in Europe and deploy it overseas if we have not any bases left? It could be done by air only. It could not be done by sea in any crisis which I can foresee because the Russians are now at both ends of the Suez Canal. They are down in Aden taking over the bases we are going to give them, and they are in the Mediterranean at Alexandria. Therefore, it does not matter whether the Suez Canal is open or not. if we are involved in a crisis to which the Soviet Union objects, we cannot use the Suez Canal if we cannot get through the Red Sea. To appease their Left wing, the Government have now done their best to jeopardise the Simonstown base so that we cannot get anywhere by sea.
  Can we get anywhere by air? Can we really lift the largeish quantities of troops which may be required in an emergency, together with all the stores, ammunition and the rest of the build-up, by air only, without being certain about
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  overflying rights, or even being certain that the airfield at the other end will be all right to land on when we arrive? This is plain hooey, and the Secretary of State for Defence knows it. If the Singapore base is to be wound up, how shall we supply 10,000 troops in Hong Kong? Where will they be supplied from, and how?
  Paragraph 14 of the White Paper is really splendid. It says:
  "We shall make an early reduction in the number of aircraft based in Cyprus while maintaining our membership of CENTO."
  That is like saying that we should like to retain membership of a club because the notepaper looks rather good, but shall not pay the subscription. It makes no sense.
  I should now like to say something about the Gulf. Our oil interests and those of Western Europe there are immense, and the sterling balances are immense. I believe that the sterling balances of Kuwait now exceed those of Australia. But it is not, and never has been, a stable area, and it is rendered much less stable by the follies the Government committed over Aden.
  I do not accept the facile argument that oil flows, anyway. It is said that the Arabs cannot sell it anywhere else, so that it will be all right on the night. I do not think that that is true. Oil flows only if the territory in question is stable. It is about the easiest thing to sabotage, whether at the oil well or the pipeline. It does not flow if there is anarchy in the country or the country is under threat of invasion. There is plenty of inflammable material in the Gulf, with the claims by Iran on Bahrain, Iraq on Kuwait and Saudi Arabia on Abu Dhabi.
  It is a curious form of economy to remove a force costing between £12 and £15 million only a year, which has maintained stability in the area for a very long time. As far as I know the Trucial Oman Scouts have maintained stability in their area without firing a shot, but a great many shots would have been fired if they had not been there. The attempted threat to Kuwait by Iraq was foiled by the presence of British troops and a few more flown out from England. They could not be flown out now because there is no base from which to supply them. The idea of flying everything from Tid-worth makes no sense.

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  I do not understand the economic argument. The Foreign Secretary told us this afternoon, unless I misunderstood him, that it is not economies he is after but redeployment. That is a new argument. How shall we redeploy the troops which will be brought back from Malaysia and the Far East? Will they be demobilised and put into the Civil Service? If they are brought home and not demobilised, there is no barrack accommodation for them. I do not know what this redeployment means. It has no sense in terms of military strategy, economics or anything else. It is simply a sop to the Government's Left wing to agree to certain cuts to try to prevent further devaluation of the £.
  I find it very hard to take what has happened about the Gulf Treaties. We have certain treaty obligations with the various Gulf States. Any Government has the right at any time to renegotiate a treaty, but I use the word "negotiate" deliberately. Renegotiating a treaty means sitting down with the other party or parties and saying, "I am sorry, but I want to alter it", and then doing it by agreement. So far as I can discover, what we have done in the Persian Gulf was not renegotiation in that sense.
  In Bedouin law and custom a man's word is regarded as absolute. There were days, which are perhaps now called the bad old days, when the Englishman's word was his bond. It is certainly not true any more that a Minister's word is his bond, and I rather regret the passing of those days.
  I think that the Aden story is terrible. It was not decolonisation. We did not hand over in the usual way to a Government based on some form of popular support who could take over the reins of administration and function after a fashion. We handed over in panic to whichever group of terrorists happened to have the best method of eliminating any rival group. By refusing to allow British troops to get on top of the terrorist movement, we destroyed any chance the Federal Army had of exercising a stable influence. By negotiating with the terrorists—with both sides almost simultaneously—we destroyed any chance of the Federal Government taking over. We negotiated and got out in such a panic and hurry that there was no time to make pro-
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  vision for the pension rights and salaries of former Colonial Government employees and former employees of the Federal Government. I believe that that has never been done before.
  The Minister of State gave me a Written Answer on the subject on 11th December, stating:
  "In view of the shortage of time it was not possible to deal with the question of the public service during the negotiations in Geneva. It was however agreed then that discussions on this subject should take place between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the People's Republic of Southern Yemen at an early date after independence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th December, 1967; Vol. 756, c. 20.]
  Have any discussions taken place, and, if so, what is the result? Has any progress been made? Has the subject been raised at all or just conveniently dropped? If so, what is happening to the pension rights and salaries of those who have opted to stay on?
  The Federal Government collapsed last September, but none of the employees was given notice until November. Why not? Was the panic among Ministers such that they just forgot about that? In answer to another Question of mine on 27th November the Minister of State said that compensation and terminal benefits payable would include pay for at least six months' leave and so on to the officers. But British officers serving with the Federal forces do not get any terminal benefits. This is all illusion.
  We have handed over, I suppose in the name of economy, buildings, bases, equipment and so on worth £25 million, £30 million or £40 million in Aden. I do not know. We are paying the Government there another £10 million to get on with their job. The new Government of the Southern Yemen Republic is about to hand over the whole base installation and facilities to the Soviet Union, if Press reports are true. Therefore, in six months the Government will have achieved something which successive Governments of this country of various parties have prevented for 200 years, namely, the Russians having a presence in the Mediterranean and in the Red Sea. We did not require an official of the capacity of Sir Humphrey Trevelyan to do all that. Almost any one of the present Ministers could have done it without sending him out.

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  What about Bahrain, and the great build-up there of installations costing £7 million moved from Aden? What about Sharjah, where new houses with air conditioning and new accommodation for the troops are being built? All that will be taken away, I suppose. It is not economics at all.
  The Left wing of the Labour Party is very pleased at all these withdrawals from the Far East and elsewhere. Those hon. Members never wanted commitments outside Britain. As has been pointed out previously, while in one breath they shout "Hurrah", in the next breath they are asking the Prime Minister to use his influence with President Johnson to call off the bombing in Vietnam. One cannot have it both ways. If one opts out of one's commitments one does not exercise influence with anybody because nobody consults one. So that request makes no sense. Of course, we have no influence with President Johnson or the Soviet Union. If one opts out of all one's commitments one ceases to be a world Power.
  I am not so sure that the world is all that safe—I wish I could think it was—if the strategic balance gets upset. All the time I have been in the House I have been terrified by one thing, that the strategy of the country might devolve upon "nuclear or nothing", because if it is nuclear one presses the button and there are no victors or vanquished, and if it is nothing one has to accept the coup. As I say, I have always been terrified of this. The Government are right back on it now; all the cuts they are making are in the conventional forces and not the nuclear.
  I believe it to be the duty of any Government to protect the security of their own country first. The present Government are running very close to the wind in this respect. The whole strategy and thinking of N.AT.O. is now turned upside down with a presence of the Soviet Union in the Mediterranean and in the Red Sea, because the under-belly of NATO, is turned. CENTO makes little sense, and I suppose we shall opt out of S.E.A.T.O. These are serious things.
  I remember the mid-1930s, but I was not, of course, in the House then. I remember, nevertheless, the nauseating hypocrisy of the Labour Party of those days and the subsequent books about
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  "guilty men", and so on, written by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). When the crisis came in 1939 our defences were such that we were almost naked. Are the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues certain that if now or within two years' time there was any kind of crisis our defences are not such that our nakedness would be almost obscene? If so. it is time they went.
  8.3 p.m.
  Sir Barnett Tanner(Leicester, Northwest): I did not intend to participate in the debate unless, as has unfortunately happened, we had an exhibition of stirring up hatred like we have heard from two hon. Members opposite and the shocking exhibition of my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mrs. McKay), who was fearsome of any interruption knowing that she was talking absolute nonsense and was stirring up the very antagonisms that no one wants to stir up.
  I think it is necessary in the circum stances to put one or two indisputable matters on record. The hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) put into much better words than I can use what the position was and is with regard to Israel. What nonsense it is for anybody to imply that Israel was an aggressor. I have in my hand a map showing how Israel in June was surrounded by vast forces from every one of the neighbouring countries. They had even brought forces from Iraq and elsewhere to assist them, and they were determined to squeeze the very life out of not only Israel but every man, woman and child in that country. I speak knowing very well the responsibility of speaking in this
  way. Let me give an illustration——
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: Is my hon. Friend aware that Cairo radio officially announced on 25th May that the Arab people were firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map?
  Sir B. Janner: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I think that hon. Members know the kind of propaganda that was coming forth through the Arab Press, radio and television—also to the Arabs in Israel, incidentally. There is no television network in Israel except for a few educational programmes. But the Arabs in Israel were being incited in similar terms by television coming from Cairo.

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  But there is very much more tangible evidence than that. The fact is that when Israel was surrounded in that way and managed effectively to overcome her enemies she discovered orders which were issued by the nations surrounding her. I will quote one which shows very clearly that the Arabs intended to kill as many of the Israel population as they could. The document has been described as the Jordanian operation orders for the destruction of Israeli settlements and killing all persons in them. It states:
  "The task: The brigade reserve battalion will raid Motza Colony…".
  That is a type of colony that exists in various parts of Israel, consisting of people who have torn life from the desert, having planted in the desert after removing rocks with their hands.
  The House surely knows what happened there. Since Jewish colonists had first gone to Palestine they removed rocks with their hands and made of what was waste, and would have continued to be waste for ever if they had not arrived there, something which every civilised human being commends. It illustrates what every civilised human being believes to be the way civilised human beings should fight against the ravages of nature. That is what Israel stands for.
  Yet my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham has the impertinence to attack people of that quality in this House where we believe in civilisation. A woman who pretends that she believes in the equal rights of women and the liberation and democratisation of all human beings, so she says, comes here and has the audacity to attack the women of Israel who are part of a population who, together with their menfolk, have created a democracy which is an example to the world.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: My hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mrs. McKay) has never been to Israel. She told me so.
  Sir B. Janner: Not only has the hon. Lady not been to Israel, but I defy her to prove the allegations that she makes in respect of the refugees, which she has repeated in this House on several occasions, and which are a grave exaggeration. I am sorry that she is not here. She ought to have had the sense to know that someone would answer her. Apparently she has not even that amount of sense.
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  I continue with the words of the operation order:
  "The task: The Brigade Reserve Battalion will raid Motza Colony, will destroy it and will kill all persons in it upon receiving the code word 'Hadhad' from brigade H.Q.
  A. One company plus one platoon—for breaching and destroying:
  1, The task: The destruction of the colony and killing all its inhabitants.
  2. Attached: A.A.O. (Advanced artillery observer), one platoon field engineers.
  B. Own forces:
  1. The intention of H.Q. Western Front is to carry out a raid on Motza Colony, to destroy it and to kill all its inhabitants.
  2. This task was allocated to the Brigadier of the Imam Aly Ben Abi Taleb Brigade who will further it to the Brigade Reserve Battalion."
  That is one of the orders.
  I ask the House to judge whether it was or was not the intention of a large portion of the Arab world to wait until it was sufficiently strong to eliminate, to destroy and to annihilate. How can anybody, in the House or outside, in a respectable and decent assembly such as this, allow to pass an imputation that Israel was attacking? I remember the kind of argument used by Hitler against the Jews in his clutches. There are hon. Members who remember that Hitler complained that the Jews were attacking the Germans. Thank God the Israelis were not in the position of the Jews in Germany who, because of the circumstances, were not able to defend themselves, although many of them attempted to do so valiantly as in the Warsaw ghetto where they fought to the last man and the last child.
  Israel if attacked must, and will, fight to the last man unless she repulses the attack. Why do not the hon. Lady and the two hon. Members who have supported her realise that Israel must fight to the last man, woman and child to preserve itself? There has been cruelty by individuals to goad the Arabs, or other enemies of Israel, into continuing that kind of action. They say that the Arabs would attack again. The hon. Lady herself said that the Arabs have threatened this. She has warned that unless Israel does what she thinks it ought to do, in other words, destroy itself, others will destroy it. These are words which ought not to be heard in an assembly like ours.

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  It is time that it was realised that the Balfour Declaration was a definite undertaking. To whom was it given? The Balfour Declaration was given to the Zionists. It is no good anybody saying that Balfour did not know what Zionism was, or that Lloyd George did not know, or that the House did not know. Of course they knew. The Balfour Declaration categorically states that it was to be handed to the Zionist Federation. I have the honour of being the President of the Zionist Federation, following Chaim Weitzmann, a much more distinguished person than myself. It is sheer nonsense to say that the Balfour Declaration was not what it was intended to be, which was a declaration that a Jewish National Home should be founded.
  Israel has stated what it wants now. Israel cannot go on living in a state of fear and anxiety as it has for the last 20 years, and nobody would expect it to do so. No one with any sense would want her to do so. How can Israel stand the kind of guerrilla warfare which h now going on and which the hon. Lady apparently ignores? Israel's enemies say—"Go in and kill, it does not matter; drop bombs in cinemas; kill children, kill whomever you can, because if you do not do that, your wishes will never be fulfilled". Israel has published its intentions and there can be no question about them. She is prepared to sit at a table with her negotiators. It is a very strange tiling that in all other matters we urge the parties to discuss the matter together. Whatever the views of hon. Members may be and whatever their approach, they urge the parties involved in any dispute to get to the table and negotiate. But that does not happen when Israel is involved, and then some hon. Members say that it must be settled for Israel by others.
  What was the result of the arrangement before? I have a high regard for the United Nations, but let us remember that its troops walked out and left Israel to her fate. We did not do anything and other countries did not do anything to help. Russia is now giving the Arabs tremendous supplies of arms and yet we practically tell Israel, "You will be able to fight this with you hands; you fellows are strong chaps. "At one time it used to be said that the Jewish people were not strong, that they were cowards and so on,
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  but today they are supposed to be so courageous and brave that with their bare hands and with a shortage of weapons they can fight the sophisticated weapons provided to their enemies by others. The fact is that Jewish people are exactly the same as non-Jewish people, they are just human being with virtues and vices, abilities and disabilities just like everybody else.
  But in Israel they have one outstanding feature—a determination to live. They want to live in peace. They do not want to expand and they do not want to damage any of the Arabs in Israel or elsewhere. On the contrary, the Arabs in Israel get on very well. It is true that the Israeli authorities had to take certain security measures, but it is natural to take security measures when there is such vicious propaganda from abroad inciting the Arabs to attack.
  Does anyone in the House honestly believe that any Jewish person anywhere in the world does not have sympathy with the refugees, with the Arabs, the Armenians, or those who were disturbed in the last war? No people have more cause to have such sympathy. Why is there this attack about the kind of treatment meted out to refugees? Who dares to suggest that the people of Israel could wish fellow human being to suffer. Anyone who suggests that is crazy. The Jewish people are doing everything in their power to ease the suffering of those who were disturbed as a consequence of the attack on Israel. For example, the western bank of the Jordan is trading with the east and goods are being sent over, and the Arabs in Jordan know it very well.
  What do those people want who have never raised a voice against Egypt and the rest of the Arab world for the cruel manner in which they have treated refugees for 20 years? Who during that time spoke in the House against that as some are now speaking against Israel?
  For 20 years, human beings were used as pawns. The most inhuman and vicious act ever was committed by the Arabs by indoctrinating their people for 20 years not to welcome refugees or take them into their lands, let alone their homes. In refusing them the opportunity of living a useful life, they committed a cruel, vicious and inhuman act against their kith and kin.

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  Do we hear anyone saying in this House that 500,000 to 600,000 Jewish refugees were hunted and hounded out of their homes by some Arab nations, including 100,000 odd from Iraq, the vast majority with every penny taken from them and their lands confiscated without anything given them by way of compensations? Why do not those who are so full of human pity, who claim to have such great hearts and who are so honest in their views stand up and condemn Iraq and other Arab countries who hounded out their Jews and deprived them of their possessions? Because the Israelis were human enough to try to rehabilitate the sufferers is that to be used against them? Where is the perspective of people who approach these problems without seeing both sides?
  Israel is prepared to do her best for the Arabs. She is prepared to train refugees. She is prepared to work with her neighbours and give them the benefit of her splendid "know-how" as it is being given to many African nations, other undeveloped countries, and even Brazil. People are sent to Israel to learn how to rehabilitate their fellow countrymen. Why are not Arabs? Israel has offered to help, and she is prepared to do so. Let the rest of the world join with Israel in solving the refugee question. Her economic difficulties are great, but she is prepared to do her share, because she is a humane civilised nation wanting to do all that she can to alleviate distress.
  Can any hon. Member deny what I am saying? These are the facts. Israel cannot be expected, having been attacked in the way she was, to say that she will give up this or that. Let the parties come to the table and negotiate. Israel cannot be expected to give up her right to use the Suez Canal. She wants to help Britain, of course, and she will assist ships to leave, but surely every hon. Member will accept that she cannot possibly assist in opening the Canal unless her own ships are allowed through. International law has been violated in this respect for years. With the exception of an odd voice now and again, who strenuously protested in this House that Egypt was violating her undertakings, Security Council obligations and international law by not allowing Israeli ships through the Canal?
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  I hope that hon. Members who are not present in the Chamber will read in HANSARD what I have had to say and realise that the speeches and actions of certain people act as inducements to destroy a part of civilisation which is perhaps the best example of what civilisation should be in this day and age.
  My fervent hope is that we should try to encourage these two parties to come together. Let them sit down at a table and iron out their difficulties. Jew and Arab can live together. I have seen it, and I have known many Arabs. I knew some before the whole dispute started. If their leaders, and those outside who support them, do not irritate and exacerbate the position, much can be done by attempting to bring the parties together than by the kind of speeches we have heard which are bound to separate them.
  This is a very serious matter. Britain is still a big moral force in the world, in spite of all that is said to the contrary. We have a moral duty to see to it that, in the Middle East, this great shining example to the world which is Israel should be given an opportunity not only to live but to extend its ideas throughout the world and so help to prevent the prevailing conditions in some parts from deteriorating further.
  As I have said, I hope that hon. Members who are not present will read what in a very imperfect way, I have had to say. If they understood the true position, those who speak in the way that the three hon. Members from both sides did would not dream of doing so again.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Gwynfor Evans: I hope that the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) will forgive me if I do not follow him in the matter on which he has addressed us so well. I have the fullest sympathy with the points he has put forward.
  I want to say a word about the situation in South-East Asia. For some weeks we have been in a state of anxiety lest the war in Vietnam should engulf at least one of the neighbouring countries—Cambodia in particular. That country has succeeded in maintaining a state of positive neutrality up to now mainly because of the brilliant leadership of its Chief of State, Prince Norodom Sihanouk. He, more than anyone else,

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  has been responsible for preventing war sweeping into his country. Had Cam-bodies failed in this, it would have been a tragedy not only for the people of Cambodia, but for the whole world.
  Cambodia is an island of peace and stability in a very disturbed part of the world. I returned from a visit there last week. I found the people of Cambodia very happy and contented, obviously conditioned by their ancient civilisation. One is terrified by the thought that an arrogant and aggressive Western culture can threaten them with the fate that their neighbours in Vietnam have suffered. This threat is only too real.
  I am sure that many in the present Government here feared that Cambodia would be invaded perhaps early this year—invaded not so much for the good of (he people of Cambodia, invaded not so much to protect them or to procure their safety, but invaded, as Vietnam has been invaded, by a succession of imperialist Powers to further the anti-Communist strategy of certain Western Powers who seem to think that these small countries are expendable in the pursuit of their grand strategy.
  They justify themselves by their anti-Communist ideology, but I feel that, given the present power structure of the world, it is probable that they would be following exactly the same strategy even if the U.S.S.R. and all the Asian countries were as capitalist in organisation as the United States of America.
  There is a strong case for maintaining that it is the shortsightedness and the insensitivity of Western countries—particularly the United States—which has ensured for Communism a success it would otherwise never have had.
  I think that in South-East Asia we are witnessing a classic example of the clash of imperialisms that has so long bedevilled human history. Ho Chi Minh, Sihanouk and the leaders of the invaded or imperilled States—and this is clear from my own talks with some of these people, including Prince Sihanouk—are, in the first place, dedicated nationalists whose dominating aim is to secure freedom for their own nations from all imperialism, whether it be capitalist or Communist. But it eases the path of American imperialism, in particular, to attach the name "Communist" to all the Vietnamese
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  killed or injured by American power. They are not human persons, they are not men, women and children, each with his own life to live; they are only Communists—and Asian Communists at that. "Come home with that coon skin on the wall", was the adjuration of the President of the United States of America to his warriors at Camranh Bay.
  The nature of this Communism, even in the North, which is said to be an orthodox Communist State, deserves to be carefully studied. One finds, even in the North, that its basis is a strong belief in the value of private property. The main activity of this Communist State has been to distribute the land among the people and its main economic activity follows co-operative lines. It is a strange kind of Communism, and anyone who can equate the policy of the National Liberation Front with Communism deserves to have his head read. But this policy, which seems to be a radical policy, has received next to no publicity in the Western Press. One wonders why there has been suppression, as there has been, of evidence which is so material and. so relevant to a balanced judgment of the situation.
  There would obviously be great military advantage to the U.S. in a Cambodian invasion—that is, if it met with no Cambodian resistance. It would enable the U.S. forces to attack the N.L.F. in Vietnam from the rear, and it would give them a more stable and secure base in Cambodia than they now have in South Vietnam. But such a step would have to be justified in the eyes of the world. For this reason a tremendous campaign of vilification of Cambodia has been mounted in the U.S., and it has been going on for some months. The impression given is that that country' is swarming with Vietcong who stream over the border from Vietnam hard-pressed by the American forces. The result of this campaign is that most people in the U.S., and even in Britain, seem to believe that Cambodia is being extensively used by the Vietcong, as they are called here.
  I was told at the British Embassy at Phnom Penh that everybody knew the Vietcong were abroad in Cambodia, but when I pressed for firm evidence of this there was none available. It was denied

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  by members of the Cambodian Government. I spoke to the Prime Minister, and more than once to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. They denied it strenuously, as did Prince Sihanouk. They were very much concerned with the activities of the Khmer Sarai, who are said to be financed by American money, and whose rôle could be compared with that of the Cuban renegades at Miami in the Caribbean situation. They are a great cause of anxiety to the Cambodian Government.
  Neutral and disinterested sources of knowledge and information about the situation are, naturally, the officers of International Control Commission which was set up by the Geneva Conference in 1954, with India as chairman, and Canada and Poland as members. I visited the Indian and Canadian offices and spoke to the officers with a view to discovering what they thought to be the truth about the situation, and particularly about the most serious of the specific allegations which were being made in the American Press.
  It was alleged, for instance, that the Port of Sihanouksville was being used as an entrepot from which arms were being supplied to the N.L.F. forces. This was carefully examined by the I.C.C. officers who discovered no evidence to support such an allegation. Their report is due to be published soon.
  Another allegation which received tremendous publicity was that at a place called Mimot American jurnalists had discovered a large, well-equipped military encampment which housed a battalion of Vietcong soldiers. This was the most famous of the alleged sanctuaries, but when the I.C.C. officers examined the place they found a small cluster of bamboo huts, only one of which had a roof—it was a thatched roof—which could house perhaps 15 to 20 people. They thought that it might have been used by harvesters or hunters during the dry season. They published their report, but although the original allegations had received such powerful publicity, the report clearing Cambodia of the charge seems to have received none at all. They have been ignored, even to the point of suppression, and one wonders why.
  All this gives one an insight into a terrifying situation. The United States
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  might have invaded—and may yet invade—Cambodia. If they do, the pretext will be that these allegations that Cambodia is being used to supply arms to the N.L.F., and as a sanctuary for the Vietcong, are true, yet it turns out on examination that these allegations are complete fabrications. What a revelation this is of the way in which the affairs of the most powerful State in the world are conducted.
  When I find that these allegations are baseless fabrications—and these are the most serious of them—what am I to believe about other statements put out by the United States about the Vietnamese war? And even if these allegations were true, even if Cambodia is being used to this extent by the Vietcong, it would have no effect on the course of the war, not even marginally.
  If the Americans do enter Cambodia, they can be relied upon to discover any amount of Vietcong, as they do in Vietnam. I would like to draw the attention of the House to an article in the last issue but one of New Society, which reviews Frank Harvey's "Air War: Vietnam". The author was asked by the Public Affairs Office of the Air Force in Saigon to do a definitive study of the air war. This was an objective study, and was no part of the propaganda of the United States. He said:
  "If an F.A.C."—
  that is, a forward air controller—
  or the commander of a 'Huey Hoey' helicopter finds anything overtly suspicious, he is entitled to stir up some action by dropping smoke grenades in places where he suspects something might be going on. If people run from the smoke and explosion, the pilot is then entitled to assume he has flushed Charlie (the Vietcong) and to call in any means of destruction at his disposal. As one F.A.C. explained to Harvey, why would they run if they didn't have guilty consciences?
  The second approved tactic is more vicious. It is called 'recon by fire'. Under this policy, an F.A.C, failing to find a positive sign of suspicious activity, is authorised to call in a fighter bomber to cruise down on a hooch line or canal and, at a moment the F.A.C. deems right, to drop a canister of C.B.U."
  These are two terrible paralysing missiles which explode a million or more pellets in a small area.
  "Since the bombs, exploding one after another, move towards the potential victims at the speed of a jet, the effect is called 'rolling thunder', and is said to be terrifying. Once again, if the people on the ground

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  take evasive action the F.A.C. is entitled to assume he has caught out Vietcong. Different evasions call for different measures. If people rush into the houses, the most effective tactical measure is to 'barbecue' them with a bath of napalm. If they go out into the paddies, the most effective action is to 'hose' them with fire from mini-guns mounted on Huey Long helicopters. The mini-gun is a rotating, multi-barrelled machine gun capable of firing 6,000 rounds of 7·62 mm (30 calibre) ammunition in one minute."
  Mr. Anthony Royle: What the hon. Gentleman is saying would carry more weight if he also told us of some of the tortures and cruelties inflicted by the Vietcong. I travelled widely in Cambodia last year. I was interested in what the hon. Gentleman was saying about his visit and the possibilities of the Vietcong using Cambodian territory, but did he go to the area in Cambodia which borders South Vietnam with Laos, where the Vietcong are infiltrating down the Ho Chi Minh trail, and where it is impossible, unless one is on the ground, to discover how many Vietcong are buried in the jungle?
  Mr. Evans: The hon. Member speaks of an untrue hypothesis. Even the existence of the Ho Chi Minh trail is hypothetical. There is no proof of its existence, and no proof of the presence of the Vietcong in Cambodia. These things have been examined as far as possible by people on the spot. I was not able to go, but I spoke to officers who had been at the places where it was alleged that the Vietcong had been using these encampments, but there was no evidence of their presence.
  As for atrocities, there is no doubt that the N.L.F. is also guilty of atrocities. It is true of both sides. As was the case in Ireland, with the Black and Tans, so it is in this war. But the people of Vietnam are defending their own country against aggressors.
  What we see now is an extension of this kind of bombing into North Vietnam. The reason I could not get into Hanoi was, apparently, that American bombing has been redoubled since the declaration by the Foreign Secretary of the North Vietnam Government that they would be willing to talk if the Americans sopped bombing unconditionally. The American reaction seems to have been to
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  say "Bombing is paying its way. Fine, let us get on with the job in a more efficient manner," and they have redoubled the bombing.
  This is a tragedy not only for Vietnam, but for America and the world, and we have a duty to do what we can to ensure that at least pressure is brought from this House and from this country upon the American Government to see that they cease this bombing. I find it very distressing that we are associated so closely with this aspect of American policy. The most effective thing we can do to secure peace in Vietnam is to dissociate ourselves from it.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Lee Williams: The hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Gwynfor Evans) will forgive me, I hope, if I do not follow him on the subject of Vietnam, except to say that for three weeks I was in South Vietnam and saw plenty of evidence of infliltration down the allegedly mythical Ho Chi Minh trail. When speaking on this matter, one should try to keep a sense of balance. I did not come back from the South with fulsome praise, nor did I necessarily accept everything that I was told by the South Vietnamese Government or the Americans, and I would recommend the hon. Gentleman to be equally sceptical.
  I was hoping that a new realism would have emerged from this debate, following the cuts in defence announced in the package deal last week. The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), as usual, was unconvincing. There seems to be a great deal to be done to get the Opposition's own line straight. There was a great deal of difference between the Leader of the Opposition, who said that they had given up a global strategy, and the right hon. Gentleman, who spoke from the same bench. We have not yet had from the Opposition a convincing explanation of their own foreign policy assumptions.
  I would like to ask them this one question. What particular commitment would they like to give up, having admitted that they cannot continue a global strategy? One thing is certain: we cannot carry all the commitments which we have inherited, some going back to 19th century assumptions and some to 1948 cold

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  war assumptions. I have sometimes argued from these benches, and not been very popular as a result, that we must maintain strong defences, but I have always believed that we cannot keep the present level of commitments. Therefore, the Defence White Paper introduced a sense of realism.
  I quarrel with the White Paper more on aspects of foreign policy than on those of defence, because I believe that, if we get our foreign policy assumptions right, our commitments will match them. Further, I believe that defence should meet threats and not necessarily inherited commitments. In this respect, I very much criticise my right hon. Friends. Their assessment of where the threats lie is, I believe, in error. A European strategy is not correct at a time when the danger in South-East Asia is disputed by no one who knows anything about it.
  Therefore, it is possible to slim down our commitments and concentrate where we are needed and can play a positive rôle. I do not share the view that we can continue our commitments in the Gulf sheikdoms. Something has to go and that seems to be the area where it can usefully go. It is also possible to make savings in and troop withdrawals from Europe, but I do not share the view that it is safe, at this time, to assume that, by 1971, we could withdraw from Malaysia and Singapore without leaving those two areas direly threatened. The Prime Minister of Singapore made this convincingly clear to me when he was over here.
  It is a great shame that, at this time, we should be so consumed with the idea of being good Europeans, at the expense of our other commitments outside Europe. I was one who voted for the application to join the Common Market, and I can therefore speak with some strength on this. I did not assume at that time that it would mean that we would be abdicating some of the responsibilities for peace keeping which we had had, remembering that—and a great deal has been said about the Middle East—the United Nations is not yet in a position to keep the peace. I firmly took the view that had Britain not been involved in confrontation between Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia, the whole map of Asia would have been different
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  today. There would not have been stability and prices would have been affected; one cannot argue that the prices of rubber, copper and tin would not have been unaffected by instability. Thus, our costs would have gone up, rather than down.
  In the long run, we may find that these so-called cuts are economically costly. They may have certain effects; for example, they may persuade the United States to decide to concentrate completely on Asia. I would be far from nappy if that were to happen; if Asia found itself left to the vagaries of American policies—and we cannot overlook the strong isolationist view now being held in that country.
  If the Americans decided to make considerable troop withdrawals from Europe—it is on the cards that they might; there have been a number of withdrawals in the past, but that has not upset the balance of power—the balance of power could be upset, resulting in the central balance of power being upset. That could endanger the detente between East and West, without one iota of stability being given to Asia.
  These strategic implications do not appear to have been thought through by Her Majesty's Government. I hope to hear a more convincing explanation about this policy from my right hon. Friends. The great danger at present seems to be that we are embarked on a so-called European policy which looks suspiciously like the little Englander policy. We are not yet inside the E.E.C. and our prospects for getting in are not particularly good. I fear that this concept will do great damage to this country and to our interests overseas.
  We have always been a world Power and, from the financial point of view, we must always remain a world Power. If we streamlined our defence to meet actual threats rather than commitments inherited from the past, we could play an important rôle in peace-keeping, through the United Nations and other European commitments. I therefore appeal to the Government, in spite of the decisions they have taken, which are irretrievable, nevertheless to agree that, when 1971 is reached, we will still have a capability to help in South-East Asia. I hope that 1971 will not mean that, completely for all time in

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  the future, we will have no ability to go to the aid of those, like Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia, who have been good friends of ours.
  I find the assumptions on which the defence cuts were based to have arisen from a lack of clear foreign policy perspective. We inherited the foreign policy formulated by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that was hardly well-thought-out. I hope that, now that we have got away from mere platitudes about the United Nations and away from speeches about eyeball to eyeball, we will at long last get down to working out a comprehensive foreign policy that makes sense.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds): I find myself in agreement with almost everything just said by the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Alan Lee Williams). This happens very often. I sometimes wonder why, on foreign policy matters, the hon. Gentleman insists on sitting on what is quite clearly the wrong side of the House.
  I wish to start with one or two general observations and then to focus on a particular area—the Gulf. On the general points, I speak with some emotions, and they are emotions of shame and anxiety. I am ashamed, as an Englishman, because British Ministers have thrown overboard solemn undertakings and have gone back on their word to our allies. It used to be said that an Englishman's word was his bond, but I am afraid that that is no longer true of Her Majesty's present advisers.
  Mr. Lee Kuan Yew put it very well in a remark which at the time I believe to be confidential, but which now has appeared in the Press. He said:
  "I have always been a Labour man, but now I know what it must have felt like to be a Communist after Budapest."
  That was said by the Prime Minister of a British Commonwealth country.
  As well as shame, I feel a deep sense of anxiety for the future of the country. Hon. Members opposite may make light of this, but the security of Britain has been sustained, at least since the war, by our unique membership in three overlapping circles. We alone are partners in the Commonwealth, in the Anglo-American relationship and in the
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  alliances of Western Europe. Today, I fear that our links with all these three are starting to fall away.
  The old Commonwealth ties with Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore are fraying, and have snapped altogether in Southern Africa. Today, the Americans feel that we are letting them down, and they no longer count on us any more than they do on Federal Germany or on that rising Power, Japan. And, let it be marked well, we are not yet in Europe. For a country that must import four-fifths of its raw materials and about two-fifths of its food, this is deadly serious. I believe that we are in danger of a situation in which Britain is left without the Commonwealth, without the Americans, and outwith Europe, too.
  As the Minister knows, I am strongly in favour of our joining the Common Market, and I was very glad this afternoon to hear the Foreign Secretary say that our application was still in. But, like the hon. Gentleman opposite, I have never thought of Europe as a crude alternative to the Commonwealth or to America. I have always felt that, far from signalling the end of our responsibility, our main purpose in joining Europe must be to act as a hinge—a hinge on which the narrow Europe of the Treaty of Rome can be swung to a wider conception leaning towards the Atlantic and accepting its wider responsibilities for the security and the well-being of the under-developed world. In short, I believe that the task of Britain in Europe, in the fullness of time, must be to reengage the old world to go to the help of the new, just as the new world came to the rescue of the old in two world wars.
  I am sure that the Foreign Secretary feels the same way as I do, yet the policy he is now pursuing makes it all but impossible. At a time when the threat to peace has moved from Europe to the Far East, we are contracting out of the Far East and coming home to Europe. At a time when the under-developed world urgently needs stability, we are pulling out the props from under Malaysia, Singapore and the Gulf. At a time when Soviet naval power is starting to dominate the waters of the Middle East, British naval power is being withdrawn from the Indian Ocean and the Arab Seas. Above all, at a time when America,

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  for the first time since the war, may be tempted to reduce her aid and limit her commitments to free world security it is the British who are showing the way towards isolationism.
  I lived in America for a very long time, and I should like to warn the Foreign Secretary, with all the sincerity at my command, that he is running grave risks with the American Alliance. We are told that President Johnson received the Foreign Secretary warmly. I am sure that he did, but let not the right hon. Gentleman confuse the warmth of the President's clap on the back for a mark of confidence in the present Government's foreign policies. I tell him plainly that large numbers of Americans have been deeply shaken by the evidence of the Labour Government's resignation from the world stage. Among the few thousand men who make up the American "Establishment"—in the Congress, in the great Departments of State and in the board rooms of American industry—the feeling now runs deep and sad that Britain is "passing the buck" and leaving it all to "Uncle Sam".
  I will got go into detail about American reactions, but I summarise them in the words of a senior American statesman who, after the Foreign Secretary's recent appearance in Washington, said that British policy now seems to be inspired by the title of the musical
  "Stop the World, I want to get off."
  I finish these general remarks with three observations which I hope the Foreign Secretary will note. First, British influence in Washington has now taken a nose-dive and no amount of braggadocio will alter that fact. This is bad for Britain and bad for America, too. Secondly, Britain's abdication from the world stage will lead the United States to place more of its confidence in the short run in Germany and Japan and, in the long run, in her relations directly with the Soviet Union. It could be that the Foreign Secretary's policies have brought nearer the day when the two super Powers may make their deal over Europe at Europe's and Britain's expense.
  Thirdly, there is parallel danger that America may now be encouraged to retreat into isolationism. Militarily she could protect herself behind the anti-
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  ballistic screen and her second-strike missile sites. Economically, she is strong enough to live within the Western Hemisphere, but politically, if America were left so alone, she could retreat into self-sufficiency and a new form of isolationism which would be a disaster for world peace and security. I hope that it will not happen, but, coming on top of the years of struggle in Vietnam the sight of Britain contracting out is having a big effect on the United States. The right hon. Gentleman should weigh carefully the responsibility he and his colleagues would bear if America were to do what Britain is trying to do.
  Mr. Richard: This will not do. The essential difference between the two nations is that we are in the position of where we have the residue of Empire which we are trying to wind up and the United States is in the position of being able to pick and choose its responsibilities arid commitments. The hon. Member must face that.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: There is no distinction between America and British interests in world stability and security. We have a part to play there.
  I turn to a specific area—the Gulf. I can summarise what I want to say in terms of the name it is given. To the Persians, it is the Persian Gulf and to the Arabs who live on the other side it is the Arabian Gulf. In recent history for all practical purposes it has been the British Gulf, but today the prospect is that the successors to the British will be neither Arabs nor Persians, but conceivably the Soviet Union. I am not one who reacts to each and every sign of Soviet penetration as a threat to peace. The Soviet Union is a world Power. We cannot corral her in Europe or Asia. We must expect a Soviet presence in any part of the world, including the Middle East. But it is conspicuous that over the last few years the Soviet has built up a powerful long-distance Navy. Until recently I was puzzled why the Soviet Union was doing this, I asked myself what the Soviet Union wanted it for.
  Part of the answer, I am sure, lies in Cuba and in Vietnam. I am now convinced that it is oil which is the key to the question. The Soviet Union is, or is about to become, an oil deficiency country. She is entering the motor car

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  age, and before long she will have to import large supplies of oil from abroad. I believe that this is why the Soviet Union is now building large oil tankers and moving her ships into the Middle East. It is from the Gulf that she can most conveniently draw her supplies, and that is what she seeks.
  I would not regard it as in any way a disaster if the Russians were to buy their oil from the Gulf, as we do. A car-driving Russia, dependent for her petrol on peaceful international trade, is a very much safer proposition than the old Stalinist State. But will the Russians be content to buy their oil on a commercial basis? Will they stick to the rules of international commerce, or will they start to chuck their weight about and seek to grab for the oil, either by military force or, which is much more likely, by subversion?
  I recently had the good fortune to visit the Gulf going to Kuwait, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. My visit there coincided with that of the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs. I think it right to tell the House that everywhere I went I was told that the assurances he had given had made a deep impression on Rulers and on British officials alike. That was during his November visit. I could, but I will not, enter into the argument about the differences between November and December, except to say that the hon. Gentleman, who is an honourable gentleman, knows what he said in November and he knows that I know, too. He knows as well that what he said in December was different.
  Mr. Goronwy Roberts: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to be unfair. Of course, I gave assurances when I went to the Gulf in November, but I also very strongly warned every Ruler I met of the necessity to start at once to build up a successor system. Simply to say that I gave assurances, without adding that I laid very strong emphasis on the other part of what I had to say, is not the complete story.
  Secondly, when I went in January the fact that I had spoken frankly on both points assisted me to have constructive talks with Rulers of both large and small States. I hope that nothing is said in this debate to nullify or minimise the
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  good basis for the constructive building up of an alternative system in the Gulf.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I am sorry that the Minister of State felt it right to intervene, because I was seeking to move very quickly across this matter, letting it rest with the remark that I made that I know what the hon. Gentleman said and he knows that I know.
  I accept what he has just said, but I am bound to remind him, as he interrupted me, which I did not wish him to do, that among the phrases he used, speaking on behalf of the Cabinet, as he put it, was that there was no question in November of setting a date. He said that to British officials and to Rulers in the Gulf. Perhaps it would be wise, all things considered, if I left it at that.
  I want to conclude my remarks about the Gulf with two or three observations.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs (St. Helens): As the hon. Gentleman has raised the Russian bogy and her motive for being in the Middle East, will he tell us his authority for claiming that the Russians want Middle East oil?
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Yes, I think that I could do so. I am not prepared to do it across the Floor of the House, but I should be glad to tell the hon. Gentleman afterwards. I can assure him—I think that the Minister will agree with me here—that the information about the Soviets' need to import oil in the near future comes from an extremely reliable and good source.
  Mr. Spriggs: The hon. Gentleman has made a statement. He should clear it up in the House.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I shall be glad to give the names to the hon. Gentleman at some other time. I give him my assurance now that the information arises from those who are in a position to know and who are accepted by the Minister as being knowledgeable on this matter. I will speak to him afterwards.
  I conclude with these points. First, there is no doubt that the British presence in the Gulf is generally welcomed by its people. At minimal cost our very small garrisons at Bahrein and Sharjah are providing two indispensable conditions for the peace and the oil trade of the area.

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  They offer, first, a deterrent against outside attacks, not by the Soviet Union or by any of the great Powers, but by the larger Gulf states against the smaller. Secondly, they provide a large measure of political stability.
  By this, I do not mean that they are propping up old-fashioned feudal regimes. Many of these régimes are by no means as old-fashioned and feudal as hon. Gentlemen think. What they are doing is to prevent petty feuds over water and grazing rights and over the many ill-defined frontiers of the area, from blowing up into war. Incidentally, they also provide an essential backing up for the Trucial Oman Scouts, who are doing an important and amirable job in keeping the peace and policing the borders.
  The question which now arises is: how are peace and stability to be maintained when the British go? I am not optimistic. The fact that we have broken clear-cut understandings with the Gulf Rulers has shaken their confidence. It has weakened—I hope that it has not destroyed—the credibility of Her Majesty's Government's undertakings. I fear that as a result, many of the old frontier squabbles will revive, that Iraq might be tempted to have another go at Kuwait, that tribal disputes could lead to a revival of Saudi pressure against Abu Dhabi, that the Persians may seize some of the smaller islands in the Gulf and revive their claims to Bahrein, and that tribal war could start again in the Muscat with help from the new state of South Yemen.
  If any of these things happened, there could again be a free-for-all in the Gulf. The Egyptians, and later the Russians, would be the main gainers from that. Europe and America would be the principal losers, and Britain would lose most of all. I think that at this stage one must seek a policy that goes for stability and security. I believe that stability in the Gulf requires a very much closer integration of the smaller Trucial States. I put it to the Minister that the Government should now be encouraging the Trucial Council. It should be developing common services, in particular health and education, in post and telecommunications, and above all in a common currency. Also, I think that stability
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  requires that we give more support to the Trucial Oman Scouts.
  I think that defence against local aggression can best be achieved by way of a new Gulf security pact based on the tripod of Persia, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I believe that there is some hope in these measures. But, while they are being worked out, a British presence remains essential, and I hope that when hon. Members opposite come to the end of their term of office they will not leave the successor Government with a cupboard that is entirely bare.
  9.13 p.m.
  Mr. William Molloy: I suppose it is inevitable that such a long-ranging debate should produce a number of specialist pleadings for quite a variety of causes. I intend to do a bit of specialist pleading for a cause to make a contribution to achieve not merely European peace and stability but, indeed, world peace.
  I have listened all day to the debate and I have found it extremely interesting. But I am also perturbed at the specialist knowledge resulting in concentration on little parts of world. We are having a foreign affairs debate in a week when a military aeroplane crashed and when, if the fuses in its bombs had been alive, it might have caused such a world disaster that we would not be here to have this debate. Yet we have not heard a single word about the possibility of the outbreak of a hydrogen war. Ordinary people are correct when they criticise us in this House and those legislators in other legislative chambers for concentrating on small areas of the globe while the massive shadow of world destruction seems to escape us.
  We are living in a world in which, on the one hand, there is appalling poverty and starvation in the poorer parts and, on the other hand, the rich industrial countries which have made their contribution in producing the possibility of total world destruction. We have a legion of ignorance living cheek by jowl with scintillating scientific discoveries, particularly in the nuclear bomb field. It is argued that the areas of poverty could be the fuse which would ignite the horrendous devices produced by the geniuses of the rich areas.

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  It is sometimes argued that the clashes in Asia or Africa could result in the global war which ultimately ends in nuclear war. There is something very powerful to be said for that argument. But I do not believe that this threat, terrible though it is, is the supreme threat. The supreme threat to world peace is still in Europe. I believe that, just as the most fearful wars in mankind's history originated with European quarrels, so it is possible that the third war, which will be the last war, will originate on this continent. To put it in another way, if there had been equivalents of Korea or Vietnam on the continent of Europe, then the ultimate holocaust would already have taken place. There are possibilities of this happening.
  We have had a great deal of talk about the Middle East, Korea and Vietnam, but the most awful wars in mankind's history have originated in Europe. I am very much afraid that we might be ignoring this important point. Many of these wars, certainly the last two, were creations based on the mistrust of one nation for another. I wish to see erased the mistrust which already exists on the Continent of Europe—and I mean Europe in its proper sense, and not the Europe sometimes referred to by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary who, when he talks about the E.E.C., really means three countries and a couple of smaller countries, or the Europe of which people who favour Britain's entry into the Common Market talk in grandiose terms and say that we should "go into Europe" when they do not mean it. The idea of "our joining the Soviet Union, which is also part of Europe, would be anathema to them, although I believe that it is something which we should consider, in the general theme of European peace and stability.
  I have not a great deal of time in which to make my case, so I will come quickly to the point I have in mind. I have made it in the House before, and it is worth examining. Britain can and should contribute to the idea which exists for the construction of a European Peace and Security Council. This proposal has been made from a variety of sources. It distresses me that proposals emanating from Scandinavian countries and the Soviet Union for European unity and peace should be a source of amusement
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  to some hon. Members. I find that very alarming because these are the real facts of life about which we are talking. Mr. Brezhnev of the Soviet Union made a proposal on 29th March, 1966, to have an international conference to see if we could work out which is involved in trying to create a European Peace and Security Council. Later the Danes took up the argument in the N.A.T.O. Council and developed it, but they received very little support from Great Britain. Norway supported the Danes and later the Roumanians have been talking about the idea, which culminated in the Bucharest Declaration.
  This is not a one-sided proposition and we should not hold up our hands in horror because it has come from the other side of the Iron Curtain. It has also come from this side of the Iron Curtain. I am a little distressed that the idea has not been picked up, particularly by a Socialist Foreign Secretary of this country, to see if it is worth examining. We have ignored it, I hope not at our peril. The idea should be examined. Sanity demands it.
  Some people will say that the idea of a European Peace and Security Council is somewhat bizarre and unrealistic. But what is not bizarre and unrealistic is a possibility that by ignoring the chance of creating such a council we could end up with a nuclear war. The heart and gravamen of my argument is that if the dangers in the Far East were here in Europe they might result in something far more serious than the horrid things we hear about in Vietnam.
  To those who plead that the idea of such a council is bizarre and unrealistic I say that if it fails and the alternative occurs, which is a war in Europe, there will be no more cenotaphs to mark magnificent sacrifices. We cannot contemplate that the next war will be one to end all wars. It will be the complete and last war.
  There are problems such as the German problem and that of the Oder-Neisse line. But I believe that the establishment of a Permanent Council for Peace and Security in Europe, to which I hope the Government will give consideration, and which is supported by the Russians and Scandinavians, and, I believe, by the ordinary people of those countries as well

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  as the politicians, could reduce tension, enhance commercial intercourse, promote real understanding and make its contribution to averting the real possibility of the ultimate holocaust. Europe, which has been the cause of so much horror and terror in the past, could well lead the way to sanity and decent behaviour for the rest of the world to follow.
  9.24 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Grieve: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak for a few minutes at this stage of the debate.
  When the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) spoke of our concentration on this side of the House on what he termed little parts of the world, in which we are now leaving a power vacuum and dishonouring our obligations, he spoke in terms far too symptomatic of a great many of his hon. Friends. Hitherto, when I have spoken in a foreign affairs debate it has usually been on Europe. I intervene now because I wish to refer to the position in which, as a result of the decision to fix a time limit for leaving South-East Asia, we are likely to leave that part of the world.
  Many hon. Members opposite have spoken against that decision and I was in almost complete agreement with several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) in that regard. He emphasised that we are leaving our interests and the harm we were doing to our interests in that part of the world. I wish to concentrate on the harm we are doing to our honour, and the dishonour we are doing in our obligations to a State which we set up.
  Anyone who has visited Malaysia will have been impressed by the extraordinary differences between East and West Malaysia. West Malaysia is well developed and has beautiful roads and a remarkably sound economy. East Malaysia, on the other hand—it is no fault of West Malaysia—is at least 50 years behind in development. However, East Malaysia is now being developed dramatically through the energies of the people. Nevertheless, there exists there material for considerable difficulties and differences between the two halves of the Federation, which we must concede we artificially created. It is our
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  creation; there is no doubt that we have a continuing obligation to ensure that as far as possible it remains a viable State.
  That obligation we honoured. When I was in Malaysia in 1966 it was at the end of confrontation with Indonesia, and there was gratitude for what the British Government and our troops had done in helping the people of East Malaysia to defend themselves against Communist aggression from Indonesia. But even now there are large pockets of Communism in East Malaysia. There are also considerable tribal difficulties there. Although there are Malays on both sides of the sea, in East Malaysia and in West Malaysia, there are considerable tribal difficulties. There are many other peoples in East Malaysia who, naturally, have their differences with West Malaysia.
  If we leave a power vacuum here, it is ground in which it would be all too easy for an aggressor to pounce, thus destroying this creation of ours, a State which represents one of the greatest hopes for peace in that part of the world. This is an obligation on which the Government are turning their back for a saving which could have been accounted for by the abandonment of a few Socialist projects.
  Mr. Eric Heffer (Liverpool, Walton): What projects? Full employment?
  Mr. Grieve: We are turning our backs with a time limit. We have seen the effect of a time limit in Aden. Do not right hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that if one fixes a time limit for a departure like this one invites trouble? If, in the course of the next year or so, Indonesia has internal troubles, as is all too likely, will not the rulers there seek an outlet for the energies and discontents of their people in the time-honoured way of tyrants since time began, by aggression against their neighbours? How can the State of Malaysia, that creation which we very largely made for the sake of peace in that part of the world, conceivably stand together in those circumstances?
  So much for our obligations of honour, but our interests are bound up there as well. The Foreign Secretary today, hot from Japan, referred to the expansion of Japan in the Far East. One has only to

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  visit those parts of the world to see how Japan is expanding at the expense of Britain in exports to Malaysia. The great timber industries of Borneo are being developed by the Japanese. The Japanese are buying shares in Malaysian companies, formed by British capital, which Britons are having to sell as a result of Socialist measures at home. Do not the Government realise that these interests—the hon. Member for Barons Court realises it—are worthy of protection as well? We are leaving a vacuum in South-East Asia which we shall ever regret.
  I said I would confine myself to a short speech and I loyally honour my obligation. I hope that even now the Government will think again about a measure which dishonours and harms Britain.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. George Thomson):
  The hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve), like the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), concentrated on the implications for our overseas policies of the cuts in commitments and in defence which the Government have announced. I should like to concentrate mainly on what has been said about the effect of these cuts on the Commonwealth. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will deal tomorrow with the other wider foreign policy and defence policy issues.
  I begin by taking up one point from the interesting speech of the hon. and learned Member for Solihull. He complained that we were taking the wrong kind of action in Malaysia and in Singapore because we were frightened to make a few economies in our social expenditure at home. I remind him that in another place yesterday a former Chancellor of the Exchequer said that we were showing the courage to take decisions in domestic expenditure which his Government had singularly failed to show.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not in order to refer to speeches in another place unless they are speeches of Ministers explaining official policy.
  Mr. Thomson: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker.
  I should also like to remind the hon. and learned Member that when he talks about apparently footling sums he is talking of economies in our defence budget in the 'seventies of about £150 million a year.
  Mr. Grieve: If the Government dismantled the Land Commission and did not go through with the Transport Bill, they would make bigger economies.
  Mr. Thomson: I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman carries his right hon. Friends with him in proposals for economies on that scale. Certainly, it does not lie in the mouths of right hon. Gentlemen opposite to criticise these economies, unless they are honestly prepared to face up to saying where they will make substitute economies, especially as they are the party which is promising the electorate that it is prepared to cut taxation.
  I wish to concentrate on the Commonwealth aspect of these cuts. Four of our allies east of Suez affected by these cuts are members of the Commonwealth. Two of them, Australia and New Zealand, are members of the old Commonwealth, and two, Malaysia and Singapore, members of the new Commonwealth which successive British Governments have been proud and happy to help in establishing independence.
  I noticed that The Times was today asking what was left of Britain's usefulness to the Commonwealth, a question echoed by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) today. I believe that the Commonwealth still has a great potential usefulness in the world, and I shall try to show why. It is worth saying right at the start that defence is only one aspect of our total Commonwealth relationships and is a considerably smaller one than is generally believed. In fact, we have formal bilateral defence agreements with only two Commonwealth countries out of 25 and only four other Commonwealth countries are members with us of the N.A.T.O. and S.E.A.T.O. Alliances. For the other 19 Commonwealth countries aid, which is affected only slightly by the present economy cuts, is of much more importance than defence.

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  Having said that, I do not wish to under-estimate the significance or the seriousness of the decisions which we have taken for our future rôle in world affairs, including our relationships with the overseas countries of the Commonwealth, but I wished to begin by putting the question in a fair perspective. The acceleration of our withdrawal is, of course, of great importance to the four Far Eastern Commonwealth countries as it is to our principal ally, the United States of America. Two weeks ago I visited Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore and explained to them our new conclusions about our future defence policy.
  The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire said that these consultations had been very much hurried and not of the character that consultations of that kind ought to take. I regret very much that the need for a full statement when the House resumed last Tuesday limited the time available to me. Nevertheless, though far more hurried than I would have wished, they were consultations. They were not the presentation of a fait accompli. An extremely useful exchange of views took place.
  I do not pretend that our Commonwealth partners liked the news which I had to tell them, nor will I pretend that I took any great joy in telling them. But they certainly understood the reasons which compelled us to accelerate our withdrawal, even though they regretted the decision.
  As I promised the four Commonwealth Prime Ministers concerned, I conveyed to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my colleagues in the Cabinet the strong views which they expressed to me, in particular in regard to the date for our final withdrawal from Malaysia and Singapore. Following my return, that of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary from Washington, and that of my hon. Friend the Minister of State from his trip to the Persian Gulf, which has been much commented on in the debate, the date for withdrawal was extended from 31st March, 1971, the end of the financial year, to 31st December, 1971.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Is this for all the countries to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, including the Gulf?
  Mr. Thomson: This applies to all countries. A period of nine months may not seem a great deal, but it is an extension of a quarter on the earlier idea that we had, and that is of great importance to both Malaysia and Singapore. We were also able to make significant offers of help to the Governments of the two countries in establishing jointly an air defence system for the countries once we have left.
  There has been a great deal of criticism in a number of speeches in the debate about the new decisions changing what was decided only six months ago. The hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk) made mention of that in his speech.
  The first point which ought to be made is that the decisions represent no change of principle but a change of timing, important though I recognise that to be.
  The principle of withdrawal from our land bases in Asia was established last summer and accepted at that time. A date between 1973 and 1977 was then proposed, so that the new date represents an advancement of a little over a year from the lower end of the previous bracket. Fortunately, the new date for withdrawal, with all the difficulties that it causes, comes at a time when relations between Malaysia and Singapore and their neighbours are very much better than they have been for some time in the past.
  There is something to be said for a clear date for our withdrawal. Already there is considerable evidence both in the Gulf and in the Far East that the announcement of a firm date is concentrating the minds of all concerned so that they can now measure the task which they face and work to it openly.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Can we have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that the Government will not change the date and advance it, as was done in the case of Aden?
  Mr. Thomson: Yes, Sir. The date was decided after very careful and agonising consideration. What I wanted to say about the date is that there are still very nearly four years ahead of us all but a few days.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: Let us be quite specific. Will my right hon. Friend give a firm assurance that the date will not be advanced again?
  Mr. Thomson: I stand by the words that I used, and I think that they ought to satisfy any reasonable hon. Member. The date is four years ahead of us. My hon. Friend the Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) wished it were longer. I would not like to say that I did not wish that it were longer, too, but I remind the House that four years is quite a long time in our uncertain and fast-changing world, and much longer notice than successive British Governments have given of withdrawal from our responsibilities in various parts of the world since the end of the Second World War.
  We have every intention of ensuring that good use is made of the intervening years. We have expressed our readiness to take part in a conference with the other four Commonwealth Governments concerned, if that is their wish, so that we can work out together the best defence arrangements that can be devised in the light of our new decision.
  As I have said, we have also promised to help the establishment of a joint air defence system. We stand ready to help in other ways, for example, through the provision of expert personnel and the release of our defence facilities in step with the defence plan of those who will be taking over from us in that part of the world.
  We have also promised to take into account the new date for our withdrawal n determining the amount of economic aid we can offer to Malaysia and Singapore to help them adjust and adapt their economies to the loss of military employment. Discussions will take place on this, and I can assure hon. Members that we are not thinking of aid in terms of token figures.
  Criticism has been made during the debate that we are renouncing our obligations under the Anglo-Malaysian Defence Agreement. I emphatically repudiate this. The House will recall that the Agreement dates from 1957 and that at the time of its negotiation an essential purpose was to enable us to retain the military facilities we ourselves acquired to fulfil a far wider rôle than the defence of the Malaysian Peninsula. Since then much has changed both in the area and in the nature of our own responsibilities.
  The Agreement contains provision for review at the request of either side; and to propose this now four years ahead is
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  quite different from unilateral abrogation. We have offered to reach an understanding with the Malaysian Government to make the agreement fit the new conditions and so enable it to continue. In any event, the agreement stands as it is until the end of 1971.
  I would remind the House that we have reaffirmed our intention to maintain the Hong Kong garrison. We shall remain fully capable of discharging our responsibilities to all our remaining dependent territories in the area, including Fiji. The hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) raised this question. He expressed anxiety about our ability to do this in the new circumstances. I can tell him that we shall maintain the capability for reinforcement from the United Kingdom using one of the number of route options that will be available to us in the circumstances of that time.
  We shall also be discussing the implications of our new decisions fully with the Australian and New Zealand Governments. It is true that these Governments are disappointed that we no longer plan to keep any special capability for use in the Far East after our withdrawal; but we shall still have a general capability, and, though it will be based in Europe and on the territory of the United Kingdom, it will be useable overseas should circumstances, in our judgment, demand it. That is the answer I give to the question posed to me on the issue by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Alan Lee Williams).
  Dame Joan Vickers (Plymouth, Devon-port): Does this mean the closing of the Commonwealth Camp at Serendah, near Malacca, which is a joint camp?
  Mr. Thomson: These are questions which still have to be discussed between us. This is essentially the kind of question which would be dealt with at the five-Power conference that I said we were ready to undertake.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I would press the right hon. Gentleman a little more on this. It is no good us vaguely saying that we will supply the garrison at Hong Kong. The Singapore base will not be available and we cannot fly supplies halfway round the world. What are these route options which are open and and how do they go?
  Mr. Thomson: One can fly supplies halfway round the world and back again nowadays. There are a number of route options, as the hon. Member, who is an expert on these matters, knows. The west-about route to Hong Kong is very little longer than the present normal east-about route to Hong Kong.
  We have made clear our continued interest in the maintenance of security in the South East Asia areas. It is our intention to continue to play such part in this as we can. We have also emphasised our continuing support of peace keeping under United Nations auspices.
  I ask the House not to write down our future strength. We shall retain highly professional and mobile forces who will, as in the past, acquit themselves honourably in the unforeseen tasks to come. Naturally and inevitably, these tasks will include our coming to the assistance of Australia and New Zealand if they were ever the victims of aggression. For our part, we shall honour the bonds which have linked us so inseparably in the past, and brought them to our side in two world wars. It does not need the stationing of British forces in Australia to make this pledge credible any more than, as Mr. Holyoake himself pointed out at our joint Press conference, it was necessary in the past to have New Zealand forces stationed in Europe to demonstrate her readiness to come to our aid in time of war.
  The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, and others, complained that we had gone back on our plans to maintain a military capability for use in the Far East if required. The plain fact is that when it became inevitable in the national interest to change our position about devaluation, it turned out to be an equally inevitable consequence that we had to change our position about other spending commitments. The defence undertakings were given last summer in an honest attempt to help to meet our Commonwealth partners' viewpoint.
  It might, with hindsight, have been better for the British Government to have behaved more ruthlessly last July and to have resisted the pressures which were rightly put on us by our allies to stay for a longer period, rather than give assurances which in the end were quickly overtaken by events. That we did not do so may be a reflection on our failure
  540
  sufficiently quickly to put our own economic interests first, but it is not a reflection on our good faith.
  The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire sought to put an interesting middle course to the House in the light of our decisions. He conceded that Britain should abandon her world police rôle, but he thought that we should still concentrate on maintaining commitments in the Gulf and in Singapore. I do not think that this is a valid or tenable half-way house. The long-term economies in our defence budget would simply not be obtainable on that basis. Our present world rôle is our presence in Singapore and the Gulf, and it is impracticable to separate them in any meaningful way which will produce economies in our defence budget. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be seeking to establish a distinction which will result in little of the economy that is the real aim of these changes.
  Our action in proposing these changes is not irresponsible. It is our plain duty, and that of any British Government, to ensure that our responsibilities do not outstrip our resources. I believe that these decisions will be judged to be an act of realism which will prove to be in the long-term interests of our allies, including our Commonwealth partners, as well as of ourselves.
  In view of what has been said, perhaps I might be excused for stating my own basic approach to this matter. I believe that Britain has, and will continue to have, an important rôle to play in the world, both in terms of direct military power, and in terms of influence. Both our power and our influencer—which are by no means identicalr—have this in common. They have no credibility unless they have that consistency which springs from our efforts being firmly within our own resources, and not subject to the pressure of recurring economic crises.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour), and by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Alan Lee Williams), why, if we have decided that we cannot afford a major presence both in Europe and in Asia, we feel bound to put Europe first, even though Asia continues to be one of the areas of instability in world affairs. In answer to both hon. Members I say that we are bound to do so,

  541
  first, because this is where our own national security immediately lies, and this must be the first priority for the British Government. Secondly, because the fulcrum of the balance of peace in the world still rests in Europe. It is, as I think has been recognised, the balance between the forces of the N.A.T.O. Alliance and the forces of the Warsaw Pact.
  Peace remains a global problem. It is for this reason that we are bound to be ready to use the considerable military power which we will still have at our disposal outside of Europe if we judge it right to do so. Having said that, I do not wish, as the British Commonwealth Secretary, to understate in any way to the rest of the Commonwealth the historic significance of the change which will take place over the next four years. Those New Zealanders were absolutely right who said that they recognised that we were approaching the end of an era. It is a final coming to terms by Britain with her changing rôle in a changing world. It springs from a recognition of the fact that Britain can only have an effective defence and overseas policy on two conditions.
  The first is that the British economy must be strong and free from international indebtedness. The second is that our long-term defence budget must be brought within the resources generated by that economy. We are the only Western country, apart from the United States, that has sought to sustain both a world-wide military rôle and a world-wide monetary rôle. We have borne the cost of contributing to stability in areas where our allies and commercial competitors have shared the benefit without sharing in any way the burdens.
  The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds asks whether we do not have the same interests in world security and world peace as the United States. Of course we do, and so do our European neighbours, but our ability to contribute to world peace is bound to be related to our resources, especially if we expect to make an effective contribution.
  Mr. Maudling: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain to opinion overseas why we cannot make an effective contribution of £20 million for the security of the Persian Gulf, but we can make a contribution of £70 million towards the nationalisation of transport?
  Mr. Thomson: I do not accept that as a fair comparison. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the continuation of our commitments in the Gulf do not depend simply on the amount of money it costs each year, but on the linking with the total defence capability, which, again, is related to what we decide is the defence budget which we should be able to afford. We are determined to give overriding priority now to putting the economy right, and we are confident that we can succeed in doing so. This is bound to cause difficulties for our allies and is bound to demand hardships and sacrifices for the British people.
  It is an error to assume that British military power and influence necessarily march hand in hand. There have been a number of casesr—though, fortunately, Singapore has not been one of them—where British military power has been at its maximum and British influence has been at its minimum. I think of the recent action in South Arabia. It is a Chinese Communist maxim, not a maxim of British democratic philosophy, that power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
  British influence in the world depends upon many things as well as defence. It depends upon the power of the English language. It depends upon the Commonwealth links between doctors and engineers and teachers and students that have grown up over generations. Britain's influence, above all, depends upon the stability and self-reliance of the British economy.
  Our aid programme is the most important form of help that we give to the developing countries of the Commonwealth and a vital factor in our relations with them. As announced by the Minister for Overseas Development on 18th January, it is the intention of the Government to keep the basic aid programme at its present level of £205 million in 1968 –69. The total budgetary cost of aid which we shall be providing has not been reduced as part of the cuts announced, but the aid programme has contributed to these economies by absorbing the additional foreign exchange costs resulting from devaluation which are expected to amount to a reduction, in real terms, of approximately £10 million.
  In fact, however, because of the aid that we shall be giving to Singapore and

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  Malaysia, and because of our increased replenishment of the I.D.A. and Kennedy Round food aid, all of which will be out side the basic aid programme, our total aid to the developing countries is expected to be higher in 1968 –69 than it was
  in 1967 –68. This shows our determination to give as much aid as we can within our means and this is one measure of our maintenance of influence in world affairs, and particularly in that part represented by the developing countries in the
  Commonwealth——
  Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles (Winchester) rose——
  Mr. Thomson: I am sorry, but I cannot give way. The hon. and gallant Gentleman was not present during the earlier part of the debate.
  While the debate has revealed deep and sincerely held divisions of opinion, there is a common denominator of concern in all parties for Britain's position in the world. It is important to see these issues in their historical perspective. The essential fact is that successive Governments in Britain have, since the war, had to face the problem of adjusting to new political circumstances and new circumstances of power in a rapidly changing world.
  The transformation of Empire into Commonwealth has also been reflected in great and corresponding changes in our defence posture. At the end of the last war we remained responsible for the complete defence of all British territories overseas. When India became independent her large defence forces, on which the system of imperial defence east of Suez had so greatly depended, were no longer available. Since then successive British Governments have had to adjust what we could do in the field of defence with what we could afford. I remember the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), when Minister of Defence, saying in his White Paper how essential it was to keep defence expenditure within the real economic resources generated by the economy.
  There is a historical inevitability about this process which is now coming to a climax, just as there was about the process of de-colonisation. Indeed, in the eyes of future historians, the remark-
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  able thing may be not that our forces were withdrawn from the Far East bases at the end of 1971, but that they remained there for so long after the honourable fulfilment of Britain's colonial rôle in the area. The decisions which we have taken are no less painful or difficult either for ourselves, or for our Commonwealth partners and allies, because they accord with the inexorable pattern of history and the inescapable necessity to match our military commitments to our economic resources.
  As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, these decisions are not taken without risk, and those of us in the Government with overseas responsibilities are very much aware of that, but the overwhelming risk to our allies, to our Commonwealth partners, and to ourselves, is the risk of a Britain rendered impotent by an unwillingness to face up to the realities of our position in the present-day world. This is not a time, when, confronted by these realities, we should take refuge in a nostalgia and regret for the past. It is a time to look to the future and the part that Britain, consolidated economically, and consolidated on her European base in terms of defence, ultimately will have to play in the world.
  Her Majesty's Government are convinced that Britain's place is in the world, not turned in on herself, and that, in the final quarter of this century, as our direct military influence on a world-wide scale reduces, we shall continue to exert influence in other ways. We shall increase that influence as our economy is strengthened. I remember eloquent speeches by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire when he was Foreign Secretary in which he stated, as Ernest Bevin had before him, that the essential foundation for an effective foreign policy for Britain is a strong economic base.
  That is the foundation of what we are now seeking to do. We are a trading nation, living by trade all over the world. How on earth could Britain, in that case, turn her back on the world? We have an immense amount to give Europe, both Eastern and Western Europe, and we have an immense amount, with Europe, to give the rest of the world. I believe that we can help to create a more outward looking Europe and that we can change over

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  from the world police rôle which we have played in the past, I believe with great success, to a new rôle in terms of the realities and opportunities of these years at the end of the 20th century.
  In the fields that really matter and that are really relevant today, we have an unrivalled contribution of excellence to make. We have unchallengeable skill and experience in education and administration. We are in the van of technological achievement and we have a unique contribution to make to the developing countries of the world. The British soldier has been a good ambassador for this country over many generations and the British soldier will still play a notable part in preserving the balance of peace, but the ambassadors of Britain tomorrow outside Europe will not normally be soldiers but technicians, school teachers, university lecturers, agricultural specialists, experts in management and finance
  the creators of wealth in a developing world.
  These are the true foundations on which Britain's future place in the world will depend. It is a future which can only be built on the foundations of a sound economy. It is a future worth the sacrificesr—and risksr—necessary to achieve it. It is a future in which the Commonwealth will remain a vital vehicle of Britain's influence in the world.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths Mr. Eldon Griffiths rose——s
  Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker rose——
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I was seeking to
  put a question before the right hon. Gentleman sat down, Mr. Speaker, but you rose before I did. I wanted to put this to
  him. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the general capability in Europe and suggested that that will be able to be deployed to meet our Commonwealth obligations in many places. He will
  recall that, in Kuwait——
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: My question is this. How will we get over the problem of acclimatising the troops who will be sent out from Europe to very difficult places?
  Mr. Thomson: We will still have our responsibility for our remaining dependencies, and that will give us a worldwide rôle in itself. A part of that will
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  be the necessary adjustment and acclimatising of our Service men.
  Mr. Ernest Armstrong: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  TYNESIDE
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.r—[Mr. Armstrong.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Dame Irene Ward: Having tried unsuccessfully for many weeks to draw a place in the Ballot, I have had the good fortune to acquire this place tonight. I am extremely glad, therefore, to have this opportunity of directing the attention of the House to the problems of Tyneside.
  Whenever I have spoken in the House on matters affecting the Northern area I have tried, for many years, to deploy the case for the area as a whole and to discuss the strengthening of the economy of the area and the solving of the problems which have arisen in this part of the country. I have decided tonight to concentrate particularly on Tyneside because in recent months I have watched, with great regret, the decline on the Tyne and the over-emphasisr—although I put it this way I hope that I will not arouse controversyr—on the development of Tees-side.
  Last year I asked, in a Parliamentary Question, what proposals the Minister of Transport had for the development of the Port of the Tyne. I had notice that a great deal of money and organisation was going into the development of ports throughout the country, while nothing seemed to be going to developing the Tyne. The right hon. Lady replied, in her usual way, that no proposals had been forthcoming from Tyneside for her consideration.
  Since then, many of us in the North of England have been waitingr—and, at the same time, trying to stimulate the Government into action in this matterr—for the right hon. Lady to tell us what the Government intended to do about Tyneside, because there are some outstanding problems which must be resolved before

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  we can go forward with the future development of the Tyne. The right hon. Lady's Answer on that occasion was off-putting because she must have known full wellr—as the Chancellor of the Duchy must also knowr—that certain decisions must be taken if we are to go forward to protect the interests of Tyneside.
  This is not a party matter and I regret that this debate is of such short duration that many hon. Members will be unable to take part in it. I wish to deal, first, with the future of the iron ore industry on the Tyne. The Government must come to a decision on this urgent problem facing Tyneside. Many Questions have been put to the Government on this issue, many arguments have been adduced and many letters have been written.
  It has been clearly pointed out that we have been unable to get a clear decision about the future of the Consett Iron Company. It is imperative that such a decision is made. We are losing so much trade on the Tyne that we cannot afford, under any circumstances, to be deprived of the valuable services of the iron ore industry on the Tyne.
  I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is aware that in this next year we shall be deprived of petrôum and oil shipments because the Shell Refinery is to be developed on Tees-side. One of our difficulties on the Tyne is that we are very short of land. If more land had been available we might have got the Shell Refinery, just as we might have got an aluminium smelter. It is therefore all the more important that we should know where we stand.
  The iron ore shipments go from the Tyne to Consett. During the last year, after a very successful and co-operative conference with the Tyne Improvement Commission, the Commission carried out investigations of the sea bed and the tidal reactions. The result has been very satisfactory, and shows that we could provide the facilities for the shipment of iron ore not only to the Consett ironworks, but also, if a proper railway system was provided, to the South Wales steel industry.
  What is causing the greatest anxiety is what is said in the Benson Report. I know that the right hon. Gentleman
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  wants to do the best he can for the North, because he knows that we have the highest rate of unemployment in England, Scotland and Wales. It is very nearly double the national average. Dealing with the big integrated steel works, the Benson Report says:
  "These works will require easy access to large ore unloading ports with deep water; and for this reason…the most suitable 'growth centres' will be North Lincolnshire, Tees-side and South Wales."
  No mention at all is made of Durham or of the Tyne. We have quite failed to get any assurance from the Government about our iron ore shipments.
  At one time, the Tyne exported enormous quantities of coal all over the world, but we can no longer expect that trade to build up and provide employment. That being so, any threat to our iron ore position would be absolutely disastrous. It is therefore time that the Government made up their mind to ensure that our future is satisfactorily safeguarded in this respect.
  As I have said, I do not want to raise controversy between Tees-side and Tyneside, but I regard it as my duty as a Tyneside Member to do all I can, with all my Parliamentary colleagues of all parties from that area, to protect the interests of those who look to the Tyne for their livelihood. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that not only is our iron ore position very uncertain but the railway centre, so to speak, has been moved from Newcastle to York. That centre arose from the amalgamation of the old London and North-Eastern Railway with the Great Eastern Railway, and the move has caused a great deal of difficulty and anxiety.
  This begins to isolate Tyneside and Northumberland. The movement is towards Tees-side and further south rather than, as has always been regarded Government policy and as it was under the former Government, that we should expand our area in Northumberland, on Tyneside and Tees-side and in the whole region. The situation is full of anxiety for all of us who feel that we must protect our interests on Tyneside.
  I want to say a word or two about Parsons transformer section. I took this matter up firmly with the Minister of State, Board of Trade, because there was a suggestion that the transformer section

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  of Parsons would move from the Tyne to an area which was not a development area. That seemed an extraordinary situation. I have had a reasonably satisfactory letter from the Minister, in which he tried to ride two horses at once. I have a feeling that perhaps the Government will win in this matter.
  When I was discussing it in the North of England last week, I was told by my friends to whose views I always try to pay attention that if we advocated the retention of the transformer section of Parsons on the Tyne and made more and more speeches in favour of it, we might annoy those who are responsible for running the Parsons works. I do not for a moment believe that.
  We are all in this together. Although I have a hunch that perhaps the Government have been able to deal with this matter because we are a development area, whatever is going on behind the scenes in Government or industrial circles at managerial level, those who work on Tyneside, and have done a marvellous job for many years in Parsons works, deserve to be told what their future will be. We cannot have workers in industry left in a vacuum. It is tremendously important that they should be told whether their future is secure, or whether what appeared to be a decision of Parsons to transfer the transformer section to another part of the world is to be carried out.
  I take my courage in my hands on this. Although I was advised that it was perhaps not a good thing to raise the matter again, I raise it because the workers on Tyneside deserve to have their anxieties put at rest. When the right hon. Gentleman was appointed as a sort of overlord Minister to try to help us, one of the reasons given for his appointment was that he would be able to get action when there was any unnecessary hold up and when it was vital that action should be taken. I ask him if he can give a clear assurance that without any further delay he will deal with this vital situation on the Tyne.
  I ask the right hon. Gentleman to realise that, proud as we all are of the development of Tees-side, he should not just state in his reply the number of jobs in the pipeline, because jobs in the pipeline may be anywhere in the region and l hey may not be on Tyneside.
  550
  We want decisions on these specific points. I hope that the Chancellor of the Duchy will be able to assure us that we shall know what our position is, that we shall be permitted to develop, and that we shall have something which will enable the people of Tyneside to make up for the loss of their home shipments and also for the fact that we do not seem to be getting such favourable treatment as is being accorded to Teesside.
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: I support what has been said about the Tyne. This very closely affects my constituency. We are very eager to develop the deep berths which we could easily provide for the larger ore shipments which are needed to ensure the continuity of trade at the Consett Iron Company.
  10.16 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Frederick Lee): I thank the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) for the constructive way in which she presented her case. I assure her that the Government are not deliberately trying to load what we do in favour of the Tees as against the Tyne. I know that the Report to which the hon. Lady referred mentions treating the Tees as a growth centre. Throughout the whole of the Northern Region there is a need for much more industrial development than we now have. I assure the hon. Lady that the Government as a whole look upon the problems of the Tyne as a great challenge. I will do everything in my power to assist in solving this problem. I repeat that the Government are not deliberately loading the dice against the Tyne in favour of any other part of the Northern Region.
  The hon. Lady said that unemployment in the region was twice the national average. Nothing that I say should be taken as indicating that we are complacent. The levels of unemployment are completely unacceptable. We are faced with a huge task in reducing the figures. I suppose that the comparable period when a squeeze had to be exerted was in 1962 –63. The figures that I shall give are not seasonally adjusted. In January, 1963, the unemployment level was 6·4 per cent.; in February, 1963, it was 7 per cent., as against the latest January return of 5 per cent. The increase in unemployment this year has

  551
  been considerably less than it was last year—650 fewer. It was about one-third of the increase which occurred in the same period in 1962 –63, the relevant figures being 2,723 as against 7,539. Although the total number unemployed is higher than it was last year, the trend is much more encouraging now than it was then. The rate of increase is levelling off. The increases which are to be expected at this period of the year are much less than they have been in previous years.
  Mr. R. W. Elliott(Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the North-East Development Council has accurately stressed that only in 1964–65 did we get into the area of 15,000 new jobs which we need each year.We have not done it since.
  Mr. Lee: I quite agree. That is a point to which I shall come in a moment.
  If I may summarise what I have been saying, the unemployment level at Tyneside gave cause for great concern but, taking the region as a whole—which I have to do because there is not a breakdown in the figures for the sub-regions as yet—the rise in the number of wholly unemployed, if we exclude school leavers, over the past four months, has been 25 per cent. less than the normal seasonal increase.
  I am now coming to the point raised by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Mr. R. W. Elliott). There is a far more encouraging side to this. Since October, 1964, the I.D.C.s approved for Tyneside alone cover 4·14 million sq. ft. The firms concerned estimate that these projects would provide 12,000 jobs, 70 per cent, of them for males. There are 7,760 jobs in prospect on Tyneside, 60 per cent, of which are for males, from the manufacturing industries in the next four years. In addition, we have 4,800 jobs in prospect in Cramlington New Town, which is to the north of Tyneside. According to the shipbuilding employers, employment levels in shipbuilding will start to improve after next March. They anticipate an increase of about 1,000 by next May, which is a pretty reasonable expansion.
  Recent successes in obtaining orders hold out a very real promise that the
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  shipbuilding industry will improve its competitiveness and take advantage of the opportunities which devaluation presents in world shipping markets. For our part, we are doing everything we can to promote the success of the rationalisation of the industry by a large measure of practical help. For instance, there is the guarantee that we have given of 80 per cent, of the bank loan required for the construction of three large tankers. The Swan Hunter and Tyne Shipbuilders Ltd. group, the formation of which has the blessing of the Shipbuilding Industry Board and of the Ministry of Technology, is eligible for assistance under the Shipbuilding Industry Act, 1967, and the Shipbuilding Industry Board is awaiting the group's main proposals for assistance in reorganising. The Board has already announced its agreement in principle to help the group in providing facilities for building the very large tankers ordered by Esso and Texaco.
  The Government have decided to locate a substantial new printing press employing eventually about 400 staff at Team Valley, Gateshead. This is required by Her Majesty's Stationery Office to meet the increasing demands on its services, including the expanding work of telephone directories for the Post Office. The news of this new Government printing works at Gateshead will be very welcome throughout the region. It provides a significant long-term increase in jobs in Gateshead, including a considerable number of jobs for skilled men, and it is an example of the Government's intention to exercise a forceful policy of development in places where the level of economic activity is lower than it should be.
  As the Minister with special responsibilities for the Northern Region, I am glad to show in this difficult time that the Government are pressing ahead with the location and deployment of Government establishments in development areas. We have already located the Land Commission headquarters in Newcastle, the Board of Trade Investment Grants office at Billingham, and we have announced plans to move a sizeable part of the Department of Education and Science to Darlington. All these add to the substantial amount of Government work already being carried out in the Northern Region.

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  I badly want to come to one or two specific points which the hon. Lady mentioned—for instance, the point which she made concerning deep water berths. At the moment there is no proposal for port development before any Ministry. It: is for the port authority or for other port operators to put forward any such proposal. We do not at this moment expect any such proposal for handling ore to come forward before decisions are taken on Consett's future. But assurances have been given by the Minister of Power that before any decisions on the future of the Consett Iron Works are reached full account will be taken of their social and economic implications, including their effect on associated industries, such as the shipping trade. But, in fact, the British Steel Corporation is still in the relatively early stages of considering its rationalisation and future investment programme, and it is too soon to draw any conclusions on its likely plans for industry.
  Dame Irene Ward: May I impress on the right hon. Gentleman that no proposals for deep water berths for the shipment of ore can be put forward until we know the future of the Consett Iron and Steel Company? This is the main point on which I want an answer.
  Mr. Lee: As this moment the Steel Corporation is doing its assessment of where capacity shall be. Until it has completed that assessment, none of us will know the future of the Consett Iron Works. I am not saying that we should have deep water plans before us. The people who want to put these plans to us cannot possibly do so until they know the decision on Consett. But the moment that it is possible for the Steel Corporation to make its proposals we will——
  Dame Irene Ward: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman act?
  Mr. Lee: How can one act?
  Dame Irene Ward: The right hon. Gentleman is a Minister.
  Mr. Lee: I am trying to answer the hon. Lady's point that we are not putting as much weight on Tyneside as on Tees-side. I have given the hon. Lady a list of very important projects planned for Tyneside and I have stated the prospects for the shipbuilding industry.
  Government assistance to the development areas is now on a quite unprecedented level and is unaffected by the recent cuts on public spending. The regional employment premium and the exemption of development areas from the withdrawal of the Selective Employment Tax premium should do a great deal to make Tyneside more attractive as a location for new industry and to strengthen the industry already there. At Cramlington New Town, which falls within one of the new special development areas, the Government are to establish a major industrial estate. Although the primary purpose of this estate is to provide jobs for ex-miners from the colliery districts further north, it and other industrial developments at Cramlington should provide employment opportunities for a great number of Tynesiders.
  Road improvements are already completedr—I am thinking of the £13 million project for the Tyneside tunnel and the Durham motorway which is going on. These are playing a very considerable part in helping Tyneside with one of its major problemsr—the lack of communications between Tyneside and its markets in the Midlands and the South. Already on Tyneside we have allocated r£1·7 million for major improvements to roads this winter out of the Northern Region's £7 million share of the mini-works programme.
  I hope that the hon. Lady will agree that within the time scale we have in mind we are doing everything humanly possible to get this awful problem of high unemployment solved as rapidly as we can.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Cereals (Forward Contracts)
  Cereals (Forward Contracts)
  Farmers (Costs)
  Farmers (Costs)
  Agricultural Industry (Production)
  Agricultural Industry (Production)
  Wise Report
  Wise Report
  Beef (Imports from Rhodesia)
  Beef (Imports from Rhodesia)
  Field Beans (Acreage Yield)
  Field Beans (Acreage Yield)
  Foot-and-mouth Disease
  Foot-and-mouth Disease
  Agricultural, Fishing and Forestry Industries (Government Expenditure)
  Agricultural, Fishing and Forestry Industries (Government Expenditure)
  Meat and Livestock Commission (Representations)
  Meat and Livestock Commission (Representations)
  Egg Marketing Board
  Egg Marketing Board
  Moles (Strychnine)
  Moles (Strychnine)
  Agricultural Industry (Transport Bill)
  Agricultural Industry (Transport Bill)
  Food (Consumers' Expenditure)
  Food (Consumers' Expenditure)
  Agricultural Investment Grants (Administrative Staff)
  Agricultural Investment Grants (Administrative Staff)
  Brucellosis (Accredited Herds) Scheme
  Brucellosis (Accredited Herds) Scheme
  New Zealand Butter and Cheese (Wholesale Prices)
  New Zealand Butter and Cheese (Wholesale Prices)
  Food Labelling
  Food Labelling
  Fishing Industry
  Fishing Industry
  Pigs (Slaughterings)
  Pigs (Slaughterings)
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Import Costs)
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Import Costs)
  Food (Increased Cost)
  Food (Increased Cost)
  Food Production
  Food Production
  Milk Distributors (Remuneration)
  Milk Distributors (Remuneration)
  Calves (Slaughterings)
  Calves (Slaughterings)
SCOTLAND
  Housing
  Housing
  Hospitals
  Hospitals
  Old Folks Home, Airdrie
  Old Folks Home, Airdrie
  Life Prisoners (Release)
  Life Prisoners (Release)
  East Kilbride Road (Speed Limit)
  East Kilbride Road (Speed Limit)
  Refuse (Collection and Disposal)
  Refuse (Collection and Disposal)
  Secondary School, Glasgow
  Secondary School, Glasgow
BOARD OF TRADE
  Import Controls
  Import Controls
  Export Rebates and Selective Employment Tax Premiums
  Export Rebates and Selective Employment Tax Premiums
  Newspaper Industry (Imported Materials)
  Newspaper Industry (Imported Materials)
  Monopolies Commission (Report)
  Monopolies Commission (Report)
  Patent Law (Departmental Committee Meetings)
  Patent Law (Departmental Committee Meetings)
  Investment Grants (Foreign Shipping Companies)
  Investment Grants (Foreign Shipping Companies)
  Northern Region
  Northern Region
  Industrial Productivity (Exports)
  Industrial Productivity (Exports)
  E.C.G.D. (Philippine Project)
  E.C.G.D. (Philippine Project)
  Free Gifts
  Free Gifts
  Board of Trade Advisory Committee (Applications)
  Board of Trade Advisory Committee (Applications)
  Jewellery (Sales Increase)
  Jewellery (Sales Increase)
  Patent Office (Rehousing)
  Patent Office (Rehousing)
AVIATION
  Aircraft Noise
  Aircraft Noise
  London Airport (Night Flights)
  London Airport (Night Flights)
  Independent Airlines (North Atlantic Service)
  Independent Airlines (North Atlantic Service)
  Heathrow Airport (Snow Clearance)
  Heathrow Airport (Snow Clearance)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Africa (Port and Airfield Facilities)
  Africa (Port and Airfield Facilities)
  Simonstown Naval Base
  Simonstown Naval Base
  Army Boots (Sales)
  Army Boots (Sales)
  Royal Air Force (Accidents)
  Royal Air Force (Accidents)
  Polaris Submarines
  Polaris Submarines
  Land Holdings
  Land Holdings
  Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve, Category III
  Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve, Category III
  Far East (Ammunition and Stores)
  Far East (Ammunition and Stores)
  Arms Programme (Expenditure)
  Arms Programme (Expenditure)
  Naval Construction
  Naval Construction
  Service Departments (Staff)
  Service Departments (Staff)
  H.M. Ships (Refit, Reconditioning and Repair)
  H.M. Ships (Refit, Reconditioning and Repair)
  Brooke Marine Ltd., Lowestoft
  Brooke Marine Ltd., Lowestoft
  Royal Naval Dockyards (Civil Contracts)
  Royal Naval Dockyards (Civil Contracts)
TRANSPORT
  Breath Tests (Alcokill)
  Breath Tests (Alcokill)
  Thomas Cook and Son Ltd.
  Thomas Cook and Son Ltd.
  Freight Movements (Wales)
  Freight Movements (Wales)
  Breath Tests (Advertising Campaign Cost)
  Breath Tests (Advertising Campaign Cost)
  Road Accidents (Dangerous Loads)
  Road Accidents (Dangerous Loads)
  Disabled Drivers, Norwich (Car Badge Scheme)
  Disabled Drivers, Norwich (Car Badge Scheme)
ROADS
  Traffic Signals (N.W.10)
  Traffic Signals (N.W.10)
  Construction and Improvements (Expenditure)
  Construction and Improvements (Expenditure)
  Lowestoft Swing Bridge
  Lowestoft Swing Bridge
RAILWAYS
  Station Closures (Information)
  Station Closures (Information)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Exporters (Government Sponsored Loans)
  Exporters (Government Sponsored Loans)
  Housing (Finance and Subsidies)
  Housing (Finance and Subsidies)
  Finance Act, 1960
  Finance Act, 1960
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Civil Servants (Numbers)
  Civil Servants (Numbers)
  Sterling (Overseas Holders)
  Sterling (Overseas Holders)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Whitehall Plan
  Whitehall Plan
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Strikes and Absenteeism
  Strikes and Absenteeism
  Employment (Whitehaven and Cleator Moor)
  Employment (Whitehaven and Cleator Moor)
HOUSING
  Leasehold Reform
  Leasehold Reform
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Town and Country Planning Act, 1962 (Penalties)
  Town and Country Planning Act, 1962 (Penalties)
  Rates (Empty Properties)
  Rates (Empty Properties)
  Cement Factories (Blobbing)
  Cement Factories (Blobbing)
  PAYNE COMMITTEE (REPORT)
  PAYNE COMMITTEE (REPORT)
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE
COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Hong Kong (Overtime Working)
  Hong Kong (Overtime Working)
  South-East Asia (Defence Conference)
  South-East Asia (Defence Conference)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Direct Grant Schools
  Direct Grant Schools
  School Projects (Milford)
  School Projects (Milford)
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  East Anglian Economic Council (Membership)
  East Anglian Economic Council (Membership)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Unfit Meat (Disposal)
  Unfit Meat (Disposal)
  Prescriptions
  Prescriptions
  West Riding Police Authorities (Bradford)
  West Riding Police Authorities (Bradford)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Departmental Staff
  Departmental Staff
  Breath Tests
  Breath Tests
  Road Casualties and Driving Offences (Lambeth)
  Road Casualties and Driving Offences (Lambeth)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Malawi (Ministerial Talks)
  Malawi (Ministerial Talks)
POST OFFICE
  Departmental Staff
  Departmental Staff
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Waiting Time (Bedford)
  Waiting Time (Bedford)
COAL
  Opencast Stocks
  Opencast Stocks
TECHNOLOGY
  Departmental Expenditure
  Departmental Expenditure
  Concorde Aircraft
  Concorde Aircraft

Preamble
The House met at two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.
The Earl Attlee—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

DEFENCE OF BRUNEI
2.5 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Selkirk, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their recent statements of policy will alter the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government to defend the Sultanate of Brunei.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD SHEPHERD): Her Majesty's Government's responsibility for the defence of Brunei stems from the 1959 Anglo-Brunei Agreement. As my right honourable friend the Commonwealth Secretary said in another place on October 24 last, no proposals have been made for changes in that Agreement; but as has also been made clear in another place on August 3, 1966, it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government that Brunei should progressively assume full responsibility in all fields of government, which will inevitably lead to a review of the Agreement at the appropriate time.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that it does not answer the question of whether our obligations would be affected by the redisposals in the Far East?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I should have thought that my Answer was directly to the Question on the Order Paper. The Agreement to which the Question clearly refers stands on its own
306
and, as I have said, there have been no proposals for changes in that Agreement.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, if we are going to vacate Singapore and move out of Malaysia, where will the forces necessary to defend the Sultanate of Brunei come from?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, with his very long experience of the Far East, will recognise that the military forces, the police forces, of Brunei are increasing both in size and in efficiency. I must say that from my own experience of that part of the world, it is very difficult to see what sort of threat to Brunei exists to-day; but, clearly, while the Agreement is in being this is a commitment that we shall continue to meet until such time as that Agreement should be changed in any way.

BRITISH HONDURAS AND GUATEMALA
2.8 p.m.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can give an assurance that at no time have they considered handing over British Honduras to Guatemala, and that they will never do so.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the answer is "Yes". I will repeat the assurance given by my noble friend Lord Beswick on June 28, 1966, when he said that Her Majesty's Government would not enter into any agreement with Guatemala affecting the future of British Honduras without the agreement of the Government of British Honduras.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask whether, in view of the recent scuttlings from other pans of the world, from our friends, allies and relations, at the drop of a "Left foot," the noble Lord would confirm or deny the Press reports that the Government of the United States of America has brought

307
pressure to bear on Her Majesty's Government in this matter as a kind of quid pro quo for the Guatemalan Government's action in allowing anti-Castro forces to train on its territory?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, there are many, many ignorant and malicious reports that appear in the Press and in other media of communication—and not only in the case of Guatemala and British Honduras. The assurance I have given stands, and I have nothing further to add to it.

RESALE OF BRITISH ARMS EXPORTS
2.10 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what restrictions are placed on the resale of British arms exports abroad.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, licences are normally granted only for the export of defence equipment to Governments or their accredited agents after we have satisfied ourselves that there is a genuine military requirement. In these circumstances, we do not place a restriction on their subsequent resale.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer may I ask him two questions? First, is it not the case that the United States Government retains control of the destination of every piece of American equipment, even when only American licences are used? Secondly, because we failed to exert these controls would it not be possible for our embargo on arms to South Africa to be circumvented, by, for example, France selling the Nord Transall military transport, despite the fact that it has a Rolls Royce engine, and by the Italians selling the Macchi trainer, despite its British Viper engine?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I know that my noble friend will not expect me to answer for the policies of the United States Government on these matters. So far as his question about British Gov
308
ernment policy is concerned, of course we cannot be certain that transfer of equipment of the kind he mentions will not take place; but we permit the sale of defence equipment to friendly Governments only after we have satisfied ourselves that there is a genuine military requirement. I can assure my noble friend that no re-exports of which we would not approve have come to our notice.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE AND MEAT IMPORTS
2.12 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what considerations were taken into account in arriving at their decision not to extend the ban on the import of meat from countries where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic until after the proposed Committee of Inquiry has reported, and, if the Committee recommends such a ban, whether it will be reimposed.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the suspension of imports applies to all countries except those few where foot-and-mouth is unknown or which have a long history of freedom from the disease. Its purpose is to reduce to the minimum the risk of any new primary outbreak while the present emergency is being brought under control. I cannot anticipate what the Government might do as a result of recommendations the proposed Committee of Inquiry might make.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we incurred a certain amount of odium when we put on this ban, and we shall probably get little gratitude when it is lifted, as one seldom gets gratitude for lifting a ban, and if it has to be reimposed as a result of the report of the Committee of Inquiry we shall incur more odium with countries such as the Argentine where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic? Is the noble Lord further aware that I can say from personal knowledge that the farmers in Scotland are extremely worried by the period between the lifting of the present ban and the reporting of the Committee

309
which his right honourable friend is going to set up as soon as this outbreak has been got under control?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Duke is quite right, of course. There was odium when the ban was imposed, and there will be odium when the ban is lifted. There is a balance of odium here, and the Government have to take the right decision. But it would be wrong of me to say what will be done as a result of the findings of this Committee.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, with regard to the Committee mentioned in my noble friend's Question, can the noble Lord yet say what sort of Committee or Commission his right honourable friend has in mind to set up? Secondly, would he consider suggesting to his right honourable friend that it would be a good idea to set up the secretariat of the proposed Commission at once, to build up a case history of what has happened over the last few months while memories are still fresh?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I cannot say precisely what the constitution of the Committee will be, except that it is unlikely to be a Royal Commission. I hope that the Committee will be established rather earlier than was at one time thought likely—that is to say, that it will be set up before the present period of outbreaks is completely over. As for the very useful suggestion made by the noble Lord about setting up a secretariat, he will realise that a good deal of work is now being done to collect the necessary data.
LORD SANDYS: My Lords, are the Government aware that the ban on the import of meat should also carry with it a ban on the import of bone, because the virus is able to exist for a longer period in frozen bone? Would he comment on that?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I cannot add to what I have already said in this House in reply to a similar question put by the noble Lord. At the moment the ban is complete: it includes both bone and meat. For the time being that is the position.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, in view of the urgency of this matter and the fact that a great deal of information is to
310
hand, why not set up the Committee straight away?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, one reason why the Committee has not been set up is fairly obvious. Most of the energy of the experts available is directed to bringing the disease under control.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, will the noble Lord answer the first part of my Question in rather more detail? He has not told us what were the considerations in arriving at the decision lift the ban, or the decision that the ban should last only for the duration of the present outbreak, and not until after the Committee had reported.
LORD BESWICK: I feel that the House knows what the balance of considerations is. On the one hand, there are the opinions of those who are concerned with the production of meat in this country. Their feelings are understandable, and noble Lords have expressed them in this House. I share the feelings which the noble Duke has. On the other hand, there are also the interests concerned with the consumer side. It is essential to maintain our relations with these producing countries overseas, and it is very difficult to pin the blame publicly on any one country outside, when there is no real evidence that such blame can be attached.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords: there may not be absolute conclusive evidence but surely there is a certain amount of evidence, in that the United State and Ireland, which have operated these bans for many years, have not had any outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease, I believe, since the 1920s.
LORD BESWICK: Yes, my Lords, I would accept that that proves conclusively that the infection does not come from those countries. It does not prove, however, that the infection may not come from other countries.
LORD CRAWSHAW: My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord says about not upsetting those countries where there is this disease, would he agree that one approach might be to leave the ban on for the moment and to say to these countries that it is not their meat, as such, to which we object, but the virus that comes with it, and that when they eradicate foot-and-mouth disease from their

311
livestock we shall be happy to have their meat again?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord is suggesting that the control of imported meat might be improved, and I believe that this is a matter which would merit some further consideration. Indeed, I think I can say that such consideration is being given.

THE ECONOMIC SITUATION AND PUBLIC EXPENDITURE
2.19 p.m.
Debate resumed on the Amendment moved yesterday by the Earl Jellicoe to Lord Shackleton's Motion, "That this House approves the policies announced by the Prime Minister in his Statement made to the House of Commons on 16th January"; namely, to leave out all words after the first House "and insert:" while having no confidence in Her Majesty's Government whose mismanagement of the economy has led to the present situation, recognises that there is a need to curtail public expenditure, regrets that the Statement is purely negative in character, and deplores cuts in defence which involve breaking faith with friends and allies and will severely undermine our national security".
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, there are still 23 of your Lordships who are likely to speak and, since none of us wants to divide at an inconveniently late hour to-night, I will try to be short. This Motion, moved yesterday by the noble Lord the Leader of the House asks us to approve measures announced last week which are intended to shift £500 million from home consumption to export, so as to correct our adverse balance of payments. I hope that none of your Lordships is under the illusion which sometimes seems to be entertained by some international bankers that every good and virtuous trading country should always try to achieve a trading surplus, exports plus invisibles always exceeding imports. For if all countries were to pursue this mathematical impossibility resolutely and simultaneously, international trade would cease entirely.
For about twenty years or so the United States of America has had a
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huge and continuous adverse trade balance, to the enormous benefit of a whole world, including themselves, and I believe that the same is true of Japan. The Americans have been able to do this not because of their unnecessarily high (as I think) gold reserves, but because their economy has grown so abundantly that no one has ever doubted their ability to fulfil their obligations; and I shall not mention in this debate the steps which the American Government are now thought to be considering with the object of changing this position and creating a trading surplus which, if it were done, might possibly have rather serious effects on the Free World.
A country can be damaged by an adverse balance only if at the same time it is spending more than it earns, which is a very different thing, and if its economy is not growing, so that people think it will not be able to pay its debts and maintain its currency. Our own economy in Britain since the war has grown very fast, though not very constantly. It would have grown much faster and much less inconstantly if we had had as few restrictive practices in industry as the United States have had, and if it had not been for the prevalent post-war belief that the British people have some divine right, to be paid more money every year. In his admirable maiden speech yesterday, my noble friend Lord Thorneycroft referred to the assumption that if production should increase this year everybody may have a 3½ per cent. increase in wages which, I think he rightly implied, might not be a good thing for the future of our economic strength.
We have built on this British economy a heavy structure of social services, including an ambitious design for the advance of secondary and higher education, which unhappily has had to be deferred. Whether it is deferred for only two years or longer will probably depend on our success or otherwise in increasing our economic strength. At the same time, we have contributed more than our share to the defence of the free world.
We have all had some difficulties, including some litle local difficulties, as my noble friend Lord Thorneycroft will remember, and we have all had some setbacks, but until two months ago we had not been unsuccessful on the whole.

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Our social services have expanded and our Armed Forces have carried out efficiently—indeed, brilliantly—the tasks which they have been given to do in Malaya, Korea, Indonesia, Africa and elsewhere, often preventing a little war from growing into a big war, to the great benefit of peace and of world prosperity.
In my view, there would never have been any need for the humiliating events of the last two months, the anger and dismay of our allies and those whom we still have a duty to protect, the reversal of so many solemn undertakings so soon after they were given, the devaluation not only of our currency but also of our credibility for the future, if Her Majesty's Government had been capable of good economic planning and of reasonable foresight. Our difficulty in criticising the Government is not to find some promise which they have broken or some crisis which they have failed to foresee. Our difficulty is to find any undertaking which they have not had to change, or any event of which they have become aware in time to do something about it. The Government's record makes me think of the famous letter written by W. S. Gilbert to the managing director of the Southern Railway:
"Dear Sir: Saturday morning, which occurs fairly frequently and at easily foreseen intervals, always seems to take your railway by surprise."
I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, on becoming the Leader of this House. This we all warmly welcome. His speech yesterday, I thought, was characteristically moderate and fair—but I will not say all the nice things which I really think about him in case it gets him banned for six months from Labour Party meetings. In his speech the noble Lord went back to the 1964 trade deficit. He said that he did not want to make a Party point of it, and neither do I. But I think that it is relevant to say that, whatever one may think about the nature of that trade deficit, no one can claim that it was not fully foreseen and fully provided against. Anyone who takes the trouble to read Mr. Maudling's Budget speech will see that he fully explained that he expected a very large adverse trade balance in the coming year, partly because he thought there would be large investments in foreign oil which he thought would be very remunerative, and which did happen, and
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partly because he thought that there would be exceptionally heavy industrial stocking, which in fact took place, in preparation for a big new rise in industrial expansion. He also explained the ample credit guarantees which he had obtained in anticipation of this deficit from the International Monetary Fund, from the American Government and from Europe.
The first blow to my own belief in the Labour Government's ability to judge public affairs was their pretence—because I think it must have been a pretence—that they had not been properly informed about that trade deficit and that it had greatly surprised and upset them. In my view, they created an entirely artificial financial crises in the autumn of 1964, and they have been "bellyaching" about it ever since. The next blow to my belief in their capacity to govern was probably a perfectly genuine difference between my own economic views and theirs. I do not think that the bulk of the Labour Party or the majority of the Labour Government really believe or understand that the heavy increases of taxation, which they had said it would not be necessary for them to impose but which they did impose immediately after they came into office, were likely to have the effect—and in my view have had the effect—of retarding economic growth; and I do not think that they understand this now. There was £500 million of extra tax immediately after the Government took office, which arose to £1,000 million extra last year. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his speech yesterday, explaining the Government's policy said:
"Productivity was tackled through the tax structure, by corporation tax, by selective employment tax."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23/1/68; col. 134.]
For reasons of time, I do not want to go into the economic pros and cons of that statement, but I think it is due to your Lordships to mention the fact that these two taxes happen to be two of the reasons why I am supporting the Amendment to the Government's Motion.
The thing that finally convinced me of the Government's inability to plan intelligently was the so-called National Plan, which purported to be a comprehensive guide to the course of the British economy for the six years 1964 to 1970.

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It was published in 1965, a year after it was supposed to have begun; it was abandoned in 1966, four years before it was supposed to finish. I do not think it contained one single estimate which has not been falsified or one single proposal which has been carried into effect. It is now almost forgotten and completely unhonoured, not to mention unwept and unsung.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said yesterday—and I am sure it is true—that in the early months of 1967 the Government and their advisers had every reason to believe that their economic policy was working well. I am sure that they had reasons for thinking so, but I do not know anybody else who had. The early months of 1967 were anything from six to nine months after the financial crisis of July, 1966, which was totally unforeseen by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and which took the Government completely by surprise. I am bound to say—and I think it has always appeared to most people—that while it was difficult enough to hit our economic targets under the Tory record of "Stop-Go", it has been quite impossible to do it under the Labour record of "Stop-Stop".
In 1964 our index of industrial production went up by 9 points. That, I think, was a record figure, and if you could keep that up you could carry a pretty considerable trade deficit for a considerable time. In 1965 the index of industrial production went up by only 31 points, which is still not too bad. In 1966 it went up by 11 points. In 1967, the year in which the Government thought that everything was going well, I am sorry to say that it had slipped back by 1½ points, and it is now back where it was in 1965. The really terrifying thing, in my opinion, about this Government is that their achievements always seem to be in inverse ratio to their efforts: everything that they try to do is not done, and everything that they try not to do is done. Since the end of 1965 the British economy, which the Government have tried hard to foster and improve, has actually enjoyed less growth and less progress than the Rhodesian economy, which this Government have tried to destroy, or at least tried to injure. The Government's home policy has, unintentionally, inflicted more
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damage on our economy than sanctions have intentionally inflicted on Rhodesia.
Even if the Government did not think up to the very last moment that devaluation would be forced upon them, would it not still have been prudent for a Government of planners to make at least some provisional plan against a contingency which they must have known to be possible, even if they did not think it was likely? Was it really necessary to tell us, first, that this was a release from the straitjacket, and then that it was an economic defeat? And was it right that we and our friends abroad should have to endure the spectacle of a squabbling Cabinet for two months, unable to agree either on how many recent promises should be broken to appease the Left-Wing "crackpots", or on how little should be done towards restoring the economic strength of the country?
Once upon a time there was a Prime Minister. His name was Lord Melbourne. He was not a very good Prime Minister, and he made a good many mistakes. But one day he said to his Cabinet: "Gentlemen, it does not matter what we say as long as we all say the same thing". Newspaper reporters in the 1830's were just as anxious as they have always been to find out what Cabinet Ministers were thinking, but they did not always guess the answer with such astonishing accuracy as they seem able to do now.
My noble friend Lord Jellicoe ended his speech yesterday with the suggestion that the Government should resign. I do not know whether or not they will accept this advice, but just in case they do not, may I be allowed to offer them a little more advice? I have often tried to do this before, and they have never accepted any of it; but I should like to go on trying. First of all, I would say to them: If you really think it right to take £500 million out of domestic consumption, for goodness' sake! use the regulator now and do not wait until March. Of course, there is no economic device that can stop all the unnecessary expenditure which you want to stop, and encourage all the productive expenditure which you want to encourage, but the regulator is the nearest thing that we have to it.
Next I would implore the Government to drop the Transport Bill, which is going to add £70 million to our industrial costs.

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That extra cost will make a pretty big reduction in the benefits of devaluation. And may I repeat the warning which I gave in the Scottish debate last December; namely, that this increase in transport costs is going to hit a development area like Scotland very much harder, because long hauls there are more common I would ask the Government to abolish than in the English conurbations? Next the selective employment tax, which I would describe as the stupidest imposition which the misguided ingenuity of theoretical economists has ever inflicted on a bewildered people.
Then I would suggest that the Government should adjust their direct taxation with the deliberate purpose of encouraging savings and increasing incentives to industrial and commercial success: because we shall never have a satisfactory growth in the economy again until we get better incentives than we have now and a less stifling burden of direct taxation which penalises success.
My Lords, finally the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, spoke about the incomes policy. As your Lordships will remember, when the Labour Party were in Opposition they would not support our incomes policy, on the pretext that the N.I.C. Statutory Instrument and White Paper did not refer to the control of profits; which was not true—it did. Nevertheless, I think most of us on this side wish to support the Government's prices and incomes policy. Certainly I would wish to do so. I have put it to the Government before, and I would end up by saying again, that the success of an incomes policy is bound to depend to a very large extent on the removal of restrictive practices. And I would put it to the Government that they should have the courage to tackle the problem of trade union reform now and remove restrictive practices, because I do not think that the country can afford to wait for the Report of the Royal Commission. My Lords, I think that if the Government could do all these things, they could still save a great deal from the economic wreck which they have created.
2.41 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, said in his quietly reasoned if somewhat despondent speech in the early hours of this morning that this has been an unusual
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debate: unusual in its immediate causes; unusual in the number of speakers taking part; unusual in the number of maiden speakers. And, of course, we have had a moving contribution from the former Leader of the House, who had found it necessary to emphasise his words by resigning from his high office. To my noble friends Lady Llewelyn-Davies and Lord Carron, and to the noble Lords, Lord Franks and Lord Thorneycroft, I offer my congratulations. I believe that none of them stayed to hear all the tributes which were paid to them last night, but they were couched in very warm phrases indeed. I content myself by agreeing with the consensus that never before have four maiden speeches of such rare quality been heard in one day. Possibly I may also be permitted, as one who has worked under my noble friend Lord Longford in two Government Departments, as well as in my association with him as Chief Whip, to say how much I admire the dignified manner of his resignation, and to acknowledge publicly my gratitude to him for all his unique kindness.
References were made yesterday to the current fashion of criticising political life in Britain. But yesterday we heard from one public figure on this side that he, the only old Etonian in the Cabinet, had resigned office because others less fortunate than he were being deprived of educational opportunities; and from the other side another public figure, with probably more personal experience than anyone in the Opposition of the administration of our national finances, that he largely agrees with the policies of his political opponents. With these two examples before us, my Lords, surely it cannot be said that by the tests of integrity this country falls short of any other.
One advantage in having this debate: in your Lordships' House some days after that in another place is that it gave an opportunity for a more objective and balanced view of the measures announced in the Prime Minister's Statement. A more objective appraisal was certainly called for. As the Sunday Times said last weekend, there had been "too much hysteria". The noble Lord, Lord Cones-ford, rightly said that there is a duty to tell the truth. But there is a difference between telling the truth as an individual sees it and talking ourselves into trouble.

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We cannot expect confidence abroad if it is undermined at home. After all, one fact which emerges from the debate here and elsewhere is that, whilst no one has been enthusiastic about everything in this Statement, everyone has agreed with something. From the far Left to the far Right parts of the package have been hailed as sensible, practical, courageous and even long overdue and historically important. The noble Earl, Lord Longford, felt it necessary to resign from the Cabinet, but even he made it clear that his disagreement has been over one item, an important item as he says, but still only one item in what otherwise he was ready to support.
It is said—and Lord Grimston of Westbury seemed to be saying it again last night—that the defence cuts have been put into the package only to appease critics of the Left, who otherwise would not tolerate prescription charges. But that is as unfair as it is untrue. It is unfair because it smears an honest attempt to get all sections and interests to make some contribution. The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, characterised this as an excess in expediency. Well, it depends upon one's definition of expedient, but I thought he was confusing expedience with a proper political attempt to be fair as between one section of the community and another. And the charge is untrue because so many have welcomed this re-phasing of our run-down who by no stretch of the imagination can be called extreme Left-Wingers. Neither the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, nor Lord Boothby, nor indeed Lord Thorneycroft or Lord Longford would fit into the category of Leftists. And it is at least relevant to note that the official spokesman for the Conservative Opposition in the Commons has said that for Britain in 1967 to take
"a leading role in reinvigorating the military alliance in South-East Asia … seems to me not to be an act of imagination but … a symptom of hallucination".
This re-phasing of our military rundown we hold to be reasonable and supported by responsible people. I will return later to political implications of this military cut-back, but now I want to support the claim that the cuts in civil expenditure are equally reasonable and can, with varying degrees of reluctance, be supported by all fairminded men and
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women. Take first this contribution to economies made by education. The raising of the school-leaving age to 16 is to be postponed from 1970–71 to 1972–73. But it is quite wrong to assume that all educational advance has been halted. The school building programme as a whole will still continue at a record level. The expansion of the teaching force will not be affected. There will be a continual improvement in staffing standards, in both primary and secondary schools, into the early 1970s.
The Schools Council will press ahead with plans for curriculum development associated with the raising of the school leaving age. The postponement will give more time for this and for the retraining of teachers. There is, I agree, an educational loss to those who leave before 16, but none will leave compulsorily, and an anticipated 30 per cent. will stay on voluntarily. Though the quantity of education is not to be increased, it is intended that the quality will be improved, and among other indications is the estimated reduction in the average number of pupils per teacher, which in January, 1972, would have been 22·5 on the original plans, but with the two-year deferment should now be 21·7.
Then there is this cut in house building, which at first sight seemed such a serious blow to our original aspirations. In England and Wales there will be a reduction of 15,000 houses in each of the years 1968 and 1969, but the new house completions will still be a record. In each of the three years since taking office the Government have set a new record in house building for the United Kingdom. From 174,000 in 1965, completion of public authority houses has gone up until last year it was 211,000; and in 1970, with the cuts, the figure should be 220,000. The total for public and private building in 1967 is 425,500, a record figure, and the Government's support to owner-occupation, by the mortgage option scheme, and by 100 per cent. mortgage guarantee schemes, should ensure that this combined total is exceeded in the years ahead.
The re-imposition of prescription charges I confess seems to me the least justifiable of all the cuts. In this I can only agree with my noble friend Lord Brockway. On grounds of administrative economy, a straightforward insurance

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payment must surely be preferable but, nevertheless, here again it is fair to consider the context. In answer to the straight question which my noble friend posed about £25 million, the fact is that the estimated saving does take into account estimated expenditure on the extra administration. The cost of prescriptions in 1949 was some £30 million. The estimated figure for last year was £146 million. If one makes special provision, as we propose to do, for the young, the old, the chronic sick and expectant and nursing mothers, surely this cut is the least damaging to Britain's health services? In answer to my noble friend Lord Brockway about the Medicine Bill which, as he said, should mean some reduction in our drug bill, a Bill should be introduced into the other place, if not next week, then probably the week after.
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, yesterday regretted the cutting of the major roads programme. It will be cut by £40 million in the years 1968–69 and 1969–70. He accepted that the most weight of the cuts should fall on secondary roads, but he might have mentioned that the main objective of the motorway programme, 1,000 miles by 1970, is unchanged. He could have expressed some satisfaction that there are no substantial changes in the trunk road programme of 350 miles in Great Britain before 1970, but the noble Earl picked upon major roads. This game of agreeing with the economic cuts in general, but criticising them in particular, is surely something we carry too far. If we are to make economies, something has to go. The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, and again the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, criticised the £70 million which they claimed would be expended on bus undertakings under the provisions of the Transport Bill. Of course, this does not represent any new expediture; this is not a question of a new charge on our national resources. This is only a matter of transferring a claim upon our national resources from one undertaking to another. I was greatly interested in what the noble Lord said about American techniques of securing cost effectiveness in Government Departments. I have not had the opportunity since midnight of checking what he said, but I give him an undertaking that I will find out what has been done on the documents which
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he said he made available and I will write to him as soon as possible, and give him the reactions of the Treasury.
So it is possible to go through each of the items in the list of civil economies and show that each is reasonable and can be fitted into a socially responsible attitude. Indeed, I can well see some noble Lords—and I can well see the thought passing through the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington—anxious to criticise the Government, saying that we are being too reasonable and that these cuts will not add up to a sufficient reduction of public expenditure. To that charge I draw attention to two factors. One is the inescapable increase in the section of our community which make special claims upon public expenditure, the young, up to school-leaving age, and the older, after retirement. In 1955, 18·3 million of our people came within these two broad categories. By 1965, 20·5 million came into these categories. By 1975, the trend will have increased to an estimated 23·5 million, and so the same cost of public expenditure must rise.
In debates in both Houses, both Opposition and Government speakers have continually demanded improvements in social services, in education, and in the health services. Time and again we have had demands for more and better roads, and it is just not good enough to demand proper improvements and then complain when the bill is presented. The other fact of life which some of those who now demand further cuts in public expenditure appear to ignore is that, despite popular belief, we even now spend less on public account and more by way of personal consumption than almost any other industrial country.
The recently published O.E.C.D. statistics are especially interesting. They show that up to 1965 the proportion of our gross national product privately consumed in the United Kingdom was 64 per cent. The comparative figure for France was 63·8 per cent.; for Germany, 56·8 per cent.; for Italy, 62·3 per cent.; and for Switzerland 58·4 per cent. Even the United States—which is held to be a country where everyone can choose how he or she spends money—are below ourselves with 62·6 per cent. Only Belgium in the Western World appears to have had a greater proportion of private consumption. The Chancellor, nevertheless,

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has made it quite clear that in order to reduce home demand, and to free an additional portion of our national output for the export market, he will, as necessary, reduce private consumption by increased taxation.
The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, posed the question as to why these proposals are not announced at the same time as the cuts? Of course, it is always easier to be dogmatic about these things if one has not the responsibility for executing them. The Chancellor's reasoning is understandable. In the first place, all this talk about a "spending spree" is unsupported by basic information. The relative facts will not be known for some weeks. It would have been quite wrong to impose restrictive measures on motor cars such a short time after the previous measure, before the latest sales figures were known. Moreover, at this time the economy can afford a surge in demand: there is slack to be taken up; we still have too many unemployed. Many of the consumer durables bought over Christmas and before are actually produced in the development areas. I understand that some 75 per cent. of all the washing machines on sale in this country come from the development areas. The increasing export effort has not yet made its impact on goods in the pipeline or in the retail shops. Soon we should see—and we shall be happy to see it—increasing competition between export and home demand for available resources. By that time, additional measures will need to bite. Meanwhile, the Chancellor has announced that he is bringing forward the date of his Budget.
Many noble Lords, and the noble Earl, again, referred to the importance of the prices and incomes policy. Some spoke of this as if it were something that did not affect human beings. I am bound to say on this that I attach more value to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Carron. He at any rate knows from hard experience just what human problems are involved in bringing down this abstract theory of an incomes policy to the practical operation of restricting the money which a man takes home to his wife in his pay packet.
We should not underestimate what has been done so far in a democratic society to operate an effective prices and incomes
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policy. Between the first and second halves of 1967 the total wage and salary bill, seasonally adjusted, rose by 2 per cent.—well below the 3·6 per cent. increase in 1965 and the 4 per cent. increase in 1964. In the first half of 1967 the prices charged by the manufacturing industry and the home market were virtually unchanged. Between the fourth quarter of 1966 and the fourth quarter of 1967 the index of retail prices rose by 2·1 per cent., considerably less than the average rate of increase over the years 1960 to 1966. Therefore no one should underestimate the efforts that have been made. But I accept, and the Government accept, that probably the greatest single difference between success and failure in the post-devaluation export effort will be the result of the renewed efforts now being made to get agreement, one way or the other, to prevent wages chasing prices. As the Chancellor has said, he could take out of the economy the total amount put into it by increased wage demands, but not, of course, before higher wages had put up prices for the export markets.
I add only this. The efforts of the Government are not made more easy by speeches like those made yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson of Drumochter, or by remarks like those, in an otherwise interesting speech, made by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, who seem to regard all increases of income to the better off as incentives, and all improvements in wages of the lower paid as inflationary.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord for a moment, I should like to say that in fact I did not say anything of the sort in my speech last night.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we are at some disadvantage, of course, in not having the copy of Hansard before us. I can only rely upon my notes, and if they prove to be inaccurate I apologise, but the formula which I understand the noble Lord was putting to this House was that on the one hand we had to have additional incentives for the executives, and on the other hand if there was industrial unrest among the operatives we needed legal powers to deal with it. That kind of attitude and approach does

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not make the task upon which the Government are at present engaged, in trying to get an agreed incomes policy, easier.
My noble friend, Lord Chalfont, last night dealt thoroughly and authoritatively with the whole practice and philosophy of overseas military operations in the modern world, by a country in our position. It was a powerful speech—I think that is commonly agreed. In a sense, as an answer to the arguments advanced in support of the Opposition Amendment, it was a case of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
There was, in fact, little left of the main Opposition case on this point, after the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft. If any were disposed, as the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, appears to be disposed, to believe that our economic troubles started with Mr. Wilson, I hope they will read again what Lord Thorneycroft said about playing on the edge of bankruptcy in the days of Mr. Macmillan. There were few of the noble Lord's listeners who did not take, and one sensed it, a deeper breath when the noble Lord said that if his warnings in those days had been heeded, his Party may well have lost an Election but the country would have been spared its present humiliation. But I would say to the noble Lord, in fairness to Mr. Macmillan, that I do not believe our real trouble even started under his Administration.
I have been looking at the figures provided to me for overseas military expenditure for each of the years since 1952. No doubt they are familiar to some; they are worth pondering again by all. In 1952 our gross military expenditure overseas was £158 million, but it was reduced by payments of one kind or another, mostly in that year from the United States of America, to nothing more than £12 million. Steadily that £12 million has risen: £17 million the following year; £60 million in 1954; up to £129 million in 1959; £267 million in 1964 and £272 million in 1966. Can anyone really say that it is incompetent to resolve to cut that figure by 1971?
Apart from the consequences to our balance of payments position, can we be certain that military expenditure on this scale has kept the peace in, say, the Middle East; that it has kept the Suez Canal open; or kept the oil flowing?
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It was an official Defence spokesman for the Opposition in the Commons who actually said:
"It was just because we were physically present in the area that our oil and our reserves were in danger when other people's were not."
As to South-East Asia, an area of increasing importance and one of the most richly endowed parts of the world's earth surface, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, had some reservations about a total withdrawal. We were all impressed by what they said, and it will be considered. But as my noble friend the Leader of the House told us, constructive discussions are going on about the establishment of a joint air defence system for Singapore and Malaysia. It is good to see this collaboration of Singapore and Malaysia—just as it is to see signs of similar collaboration in the Middle East. That kind of collective security, by the countries immediately concerned, may well prove far more effective in maintaining political stability than military intervention by an outside foreign Power. After all, it has not exactly been proved conclusively that military intervention in Vietnam will guarantee political stability in the area.
The cry that went up in two world wars that "Australia will be there" is at once one of the most simple and the most moving slogans that I have ever heard, and I am sure that it would be said in reverse if ever Australia or New Zealand was in peril. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said it would be inconceivable that we should not go to the aid of those two countries if they were attacked. Of course he is right. There is an emotional involvement there, but the determination is none the less real for that. My noble friend Lord Chalfont dealt with the military implications of that determination, and I cannot add more to what he so well said.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? As I understand it, and I have been following his argument very closely, he is saying that our troops overseas in the last few years have not added to the stability of the areas in which they have been based and it would have been better if they had not been there. This is an argument which the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, has advanced for three years.

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I think it is a perfectly tenable argument. I do not happen to agree with it. What I do not understand is why the Government have been saying precisely the opposite until now.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, it is perfectly possible to make that point. I think this is a matter in which the arguments have been going backwards and forwards. I think now the truth is beginning to emerge much more clearly, and what has been said by Mr. Powell, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, is, I think, beginning to gain ground. That I think is one of the interesting factors of the present debate that is going on. The noble Lord may think he scored a debating point, but these are serious issues. These are matters in which we have to establish the truth, and I believe the truth is as I have just explained.
I would refer again, if I may, to the words of my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies, when she said that in many areas of the world to-day, where once we relied upon military power for our influence, new factors are of growing importance. Economic aid and technical assistance are now more helpful in the securing of social stability, and are much more likely to lead to political influence.
My Lords, I would only add this about Australia and New Zealand. Now that some of the dust of the Common Market controversy has settled, I should like to see a great new effort to rebuild the proportions of trade which once we did with each other. I agree absolutely with what the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said in a recent newspaper article about the value to both sides of renewing British investment in that part of the world—once we can afford it.
I believe there began to emerge from the debate yesterday a clearer picture of the position that Britain can hold in the world of the future. Our concentration of military capability may well prove as decisive to our political and economic advance as did the French withdrawal from Indo-China and Algeria. The Britain of the future will have commitments which she really can fulfil. Slowly, and indeed painfully, our in
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dustry is reshaping itself to fit modern technical facts. The industrial troubles in coal, transport and the docks are themselves only indicative of the process of change that is going on. The mergers in shipbuilding, in the motorcar industry, in the electrical industry, Government assisted if not inspired, are part of the process of modernisation. Devaluation, a defeat, as my noble friend Lord Shackleton said, for the policies which we had previously pursued, makes one vital difference to this package of economic cuts. This time, as against the other stops in the "Stop-Go" cycle, we have the opportunity to divert spare capacity to the export trade.
I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Longford that there is a need, a crying need, to identify and brighten our moral principles. I should like to think that if Britain accepts, as so many in industry to-day appear ready to do, the present economic challenges, we shall not only be ready to proclaim our principles, but we shall have the material basis on which we can apply them.
3.14 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, in this wide-ranging debate I propose to confine myself to one single subject, namely, to press the Government, with all the force at my command and all the reasoning which I hope to give to the House, to reverse their fatal decision of refusing to send ships and aircraft to South Africa. In doing so I am responding to an appeal made to me by my noble friend, Lord Jellicoe, in what, if I may say so without impertinence, I thought an absolutely model speech in every way. He said that on this subject I could speak with a unique authority. Well, I do not know about authority, but I certainly can speak with a knowledge that I suppose nobody else in this House can have, because the agreement known as the Simonstown Agreement was negotiated and made by the noble and gallant Field Marshal Lord Alexander of Tunis as Defence Minister and myself as Secretary of State for the Commonwealth, assisted, of course, by all the Chiefs of Staff, and we were negotiating with Dr. Erasmus, who was the Minister of Defence in the Union of South Africa.
The Simonstown Agreement was a very comprehensive agreement in every way. First of all, strategically it covered the

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whole range of command from Gibraltar right round to Mombasa in the Indian Ocean. In the second place, it gave to the United Kingdom and her allies in any war the full use of the South African ports. Some people have talked as though that just meant Simonstown. It does not, of course. Simonstown is relatively unimportant from that point of view. The vital ports on such an occasion, as to-day, are Durban and Cape Town. When I was the Resident Minister in Africa in the latter part of the war it was my duty to make constant visits to South Africa, when I was always the guest of General Smuts. I was able to see in those years, when the Mediterranean was closed, how invaluable those ports were. I think I am right in saying that in those two years of the war before the Mediterranean was open again upwards of 1 million tons of Allied shipping used the ports of Durban and Cape Town. That is just as important to-day. It was referred to very effectively by my noble friend Lord Milverton, whose speech I read—I was unable to hear it—and who worked so closely with me in those days.
But the supply side was equally important, perhaps even more important. South Africa agreed to place in the United Kingdom all orders for ships and aircraft which they would require for their defence programme under the Agreement, and those were estimated at the start at not less than £18 or £19 million and were certain as time went on greatly to increase. Observe, my Lords, that there was nothing in this agreement for the supply of ships, the supply of aircraft, which could conceivably in any respect affect apartheid.
The Agreement was not signed in August, 1954, because Mr. Erasmus, with whom negotiations were extremely cordial all through, not unnaturally was anxious to be quite sure. He had been unable to be in touch with his Government the whole time on some matters. I remember, for instance, that one occasion was a Saturday afternoon. It is not always easy to get in touch with Governments on Saturday afternoons. He wanted to be quite sure that, though he himself was in the fullest agreement, he had not exceeded his authority. In fact, when the Agreement was referred to the Union Government the Union Government fully approved the whole Agreement
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which was accepted and endorsed in every single detail.
What has appeared odd to some people, not unnaturally, is that when the Agreement came to be published and formalised it was put into the name of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and not into the name of the Commonwealth Secretary or the Defence Minister. I understand that the reason for that was that, being in the nature of a Treaty, the documents had to stand in the name of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. But the Agreement as set out in those documents in that Treaty (if that is the right way to express it) was in every single particular the Agreement which Lord Alexander of Tunis and I had negotiated with Mr. Erasmus. The British Government and the South African Government gave full effect to that Agreement from then onwards, and it certainly operated greatly to our mutual advantage.
Now I want to tell the House something else, which will be complete news to noble Lords, because it will not be found in any Treaty. At the time, in March, 1961, when South Africa was forced to leave the Commonwealth, much against the wishes, as I know, of Mr. Macmillan, the British Prime Minister at the time, I found myself, at a dinner given by my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, sitting next to Dr. Verwoerd, the Prime Minister of South Africa. He said to me: "Whatever happens, I mean to continuo in full force the Agreement that Alexander and you made with our Government."
I think your Lordships will agree that that was a most generous gesture to be made by South Africa, at a time when, one can imagine, they were feeling pretty sore under the collar. Those are the facts, and this is the Agreement, so invaluable to us in every way, which the Government insist on breaking—at a time when we need exports most and, as was said over and over again yesterday, at a time when the use of the ports is more valuable to us than ever. Does it not seem strange that although we export and sell readily—I do not dissent from this—to Russia, whose treatment of her nationals shocks us just as apartheid shocks us, but who acts also against us in a great many places in the world, by subversive activities and in other ways, we refuse to sell ships and

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aircraft to South Africa who seeks only to remain our ally and our friend?
I have told the House the full story of the Simonstown Agreement and its sequel. No one can deny those facts. I therefore beg the Government, in this critical time, to reverse their foolish decision. Can folly go further than to persist in this embargo? I hope that noble Lords will bear those facts in mind in the vote which they give to-night. I do not know what answer we shall have from the Government; but whatever they say, I hope that they will not seek to deny those facts.
My Lords, I said that I would deal with only one subject. That was my intention. But as so much has been said with which I most cordially agree, about the importance of wage restraint and an incomes policy it may not be wholly irrelevent, and I hope not impertinent to the Government, to remind them of what happened in the National Government of 1931. I agree that it was then not a question of increases coming forward, but of a number of cuts being made. The highest cuts in the different salaries and so on rose to 12½, per cent. What the National Government at that time did was to say, "If those cuts are to be implemented, surely we ought to set an example", and the Government themselves made a cut of 20 per cent. in their own salaries. That may perhaps not be wholly irrelevant, and I hope not unhelpful as a suggestion to-day.
3.28 p.m.
LORD MORRIS OF GRASMERE: My Lords, I appreciate that it is the wise custom of this House that those who rise to speak to your Lordships for the first time should cast their remarks in a non-controversial form; and I shall try to say what I wish to say in accordance with that good custom. Like the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, I wish to speak about one point only, but it is a matter on which I have strong feelings and strong convictions, and I confess I should have found it easier to say what I wish to say in rather fiercer language.
I am most alarmed—I repeat, alarmed—about the school-leaving age decision. I stand firmly behind the Government in their courageous approach to the problem of cutting public expenditure where necessary. I am well aware that all those
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who have the great national services at heart will have one service or one point in one service about which personally they feel particularly strongly. But I want to argue—and I hope to convince some of your Lordships—that this particular decision about postponing the raising of the school-leaving age is in some ways in a special position. The cutting of established and accepted expenditure is one thing. The postponement of a planned and long-determined and accepted advance in education is another.
It seems to me that something has gone wrong with the priorities. It would appear that even this Government have not appreciated what risks they take and what in general is the significance of such a postponement The Government have shown, admirably, in my view, that there are some things which can be saved. The old and the chronic sick are protected from the prescription charges, and there is to be no cut—quite rightly in my view—in the number of teachers. Therefore, some things can be saved. But the cause of the school-leaving age has for the time being been lost. I have said that not even the Government, despite the persuasive advocacy of the noble Earl, Lord Longford, can realise the risks they are taking and the significance of this decision. I take note that the saving is a pretty small one in such a very large issue.
I am told by statisticians, whose knowledge and calculations I greatly trust, that the savings will be considerably less than those mentioned by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister's calculations they tell me—and evidently a good deal is known about these figures—make sense only on the assumption that the capital expenditures which are to be cut are on minor buildings account. In that event, that would quite soon begin to affect the coming in of the bills and would therefore have an effect on expenditure. But if, as applies in a great many cases, the expenditure which is tied to the raising of the school-leaving age in 1971 is inextricably bound up with major buildings, then any cuts which are made, if they can be made, will not begin to affect the bills in the years under consideration, except very much more slowly.
In these circumstances the Prime Minister's estimates are probably likely

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to be in excess of what can be done; indeed, what can be done will not be more than two-thirds of what the Prime Minister said. So, in relation to what would be a great advance, if one accepts it as a great advance, the savings are small. They will not be quick; they will not come in in the years which are important, before the military cuts begin to take effect; and in general it is difficult not to conclude that the economic arguments alone, in the eyes of those who know the facts, cannot have been sufficient to cause a decision of this magnitude and importance.
I think of those of us in my generation who have fought for the great educational advances of our time. When I say "my generation", I mean the generation who were young soldiers in the First War, and the generations immediately following. We think of the causes which have been fought for and won; the universal introduction of secondary education; three-year training for teachers, the expansion of the universities; and now the revolutionary transformation—not before it was duc—in further education and in the rest of the field of higher education. Those of us who have fought for these great advances in education know that they are not easily attained. They are not great, popular measures which command enormous numbers of enthusiastic votes where politicians are driven before the fury of the masses. We all know that any decision about raising the school-leaving age is a matter of judgment, a difficult matter, and a matter in which it takes some time for opinion to settle down and come to the correct decision.
The parents who wish their children to remain at school after the present school-leaving age can keep them there; and no doubt they will do so. The real argument is about those children who, given the economic forces involved, will want to go out into the market to earn money and join the happy teenage plutocracy. It is an advance that will come, not by being forced by public opinion, but only by statesmanship. All these great educational advances—of which there have been several, many of them very difficult to decide—have come about when the leaders of the nation, the statesmen, have at long last, usually pretty late in the day, come to the view that it is time they ought to occur. Yet
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now the opportunity has been taken, when faced with not very strong economic arguments, to allow a great setback to take place.
Your Lordships may think that I am exaggerating, but those of us who have been in the university business in these days of expansion and have done what we can to promote it and to see it through, know that with these advances it is necessary to keep up the momentum, and that when momentum is lost a great many more things will almost certainly be lost than those one thinks are in fact being put at risk or postponed. Momentum in such matters is almost everything. Many people in the universities, to their great credit, have fought hard through the years. They have kept their eye on the ball; they have watched what has been happening, and in advance have tried to keep their teeth in the reform of the expansion of the universities. If they had lost the momentum of advance, then the history of these years would have been very different. The universities were caught napping—perhaps your Lordships will think to their shame—over the question of fees for overseas students. They heard nothing about the proposal to increase fees until about 24 hours before it was announced. They said nothing very vigorous for a few days, and then the Government were so committed in the matter that they could not possibly consider any arguments from anybody. This illustrates the point that if you are caught napping about one of these reforms of the kind which requires momentum and the maintenance of momentum, you are lost.
We have to recognise that this question of raising the school-leaving age will be a very difficult one in 1973. The year 1971 was carefully chosen. The year 1969 was looked at; 1970 was looked at; and 1971 was chosen.
As your Lordships know, the great Act of 1944 committed itself to the raising of the school-leaving age to 16 at the right time. As you also know, the Crowther Report came out in two chapters, arguing with very great cogency that this reform was overdue, both in the interests of the nation and in the interests of the individual young. This advance has been being built up for a long time and has been accepted—at least, so we thought—and the year 1971 was

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chosen. The arrangements were put in hand, and since planning—though, perhaps, so soon in the history of planning, it is not as good as we should all like—counts for a very great deal, putting back the processes of planning is a very serious matter.
After 1971 the relevant age groups go up in numbers. When we come to look at 1973, the numbers to be provided for will look somewhat larger, and rising as compared with the numbers of 1971. The whole educational climate of the argument in 1973, as those of us who have to argue for educational causes in Whitehall and Westminster well know, is hardly likely to be easier than it has been. Let me therefore speak and face the future. We have been fighting for twenty years for this cause. It is a cause requiring judgment, statesmanship, planning, determination, getting your teeth into it and sticking to it. Here we are, with a very grave setback. After fighting for twenty years, I am sure we must reconcile ourselves to two more years of hard arguing and hard persuading, or we shall find ourselves in a worse position on this issue in 1973 than we are in now. In other words, unless we fight hard, and begin as from to-day, we may well find that we have lost this great reform after all these years of argument and difficult deliberations, not for two years but for ever, or at least for another long period of time.
3.43 p.m.
THE DUKE OF NORFOLK: My Lords, it is my privilege this afternoon, on behalf of your Lordships' House, to offer congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Grasmere, on his maiden speech in this House. The noble Lord has made a great contribution with his speech this afternoon and, if I may say so without being impertinent, it is a joy to listen to someone who is so well-educated that he does not have to be burdened, as I have to be, with notes. I believe I am right in saying, if my education is sufficiently wide for me to be correct, that the noble Lord was Vice-Chancellor of Leeds University and he is either pro-Chancellor of, or has had a great deal to do with, Bradford University. I am sure your Lordships will welcome him back again, if he makes another contribution such as he has made this afternoon.
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I also come now to one subject, as the last speakers have done, and that subject in my case is, of course, the Territorial Army; and I make no apology for taking your Lordships' time on this vital question as we face it to-day. I should like to make it quite clear that I intervene in this debate in my position as Chairman of the Territorial Army Council, which I have had the honour to serve for some years. Before I go any further I want to tell your Lordships that my Council and I, and the various chairmen and even commanding officers, are perfectly aware of the very serious situation in which this country finds itself to-day. We are not asking any of you to listen to us; we are not asking for favours; we are not asking for sympathy. We are asking for common sense.
I believe it is two years ago this very week that we had what I thought was the end of the match, and only last week I realised that a second innings was to be played. I would let your Lordships know that that second innings will be played. It may not be as exciting as an innings that is being played elsewhere in the world this afternoon. It might have been quite fun, were it not for the terrible situation and the vital questions which have to be answered. I should like to take this opportunity of recording my deep appreciation of, and thanks for, the enormous number of telegrams and letters that are pouring in. How many of your Lordships have been favoured, as I have in the past week, sitting at my breakfast table and opening one after the other of these messages? It is very moving and very touching; but it makes me realise even more the great responsibilities that I bear to my Council and the Territorials this afternoon.
I do not propose to weary your Lordships with a lot of details of the past, but I would remind you that in 1965, in the spring and in the summer, the reorganisation of the T.A., as we knew it then, was under consideration by the Government. It was at the end of July that, without any consultation at all, I was informed about the changes which were to take place, but those changes did not at that moment include the T. and A.V.R.III Force. We of the Council played our part in the Ministry of Defence, and the Opposition quite rightly played its part. Then we came to the

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autumn of 1965. In December there was the debate in another place where the majority came down for the Government, though I think it was of only one or two. Through fear at that moment, we opened negotiations again; and eventually, two years ago this week, the T. and A.V.R. was founded.
When the reorganisation took place the regiments, the yeomanries, the artilleries and the battalions were to lose all our names, all our titles and everything that meant. But by the advent of the T. and A.V.R.III those were retained to the tune of 87 units, and those who could possibly have retained some in other ways gave them up and were willing to join this Force in order to preserve their identity.
Now the members of this Force were armed with only a uniform and a rifle, and they had a few land-rovers. They were put on the Home Office Vote—nine-tenths of it was paid by the Home Office and one-tenth of it by the Ministry of Defence—but they were administered by the Ministry of Defence. And though they were so lightly equipped, they were, my Lords, soldiers of the Queen. This Force, we were told by the Home Office, would be allowed a maximum of £3 million per year. As our budget stands, by April 1 of this year, at the end of the first full year of this Force, we shall have made great strides, and we shall in fact have existed on £2½ million. This, my Lords, is what the Government propose at this moment to abolish. This afternoon I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, standing at the Government Box here, talking of £70 million, £50 million and other such sums. In comparison, this is a pittance. I know it is important—that every pound may be. But here we have this Force of young enthusiasts who wish to give some voluntary help to their country being told, after having been formed nine months, "You are not wanted. Go home".
I have had a letter from the Colonel of the 9th Battalion Territorials, the Queen's Regiment, Royal Sussex, of which I have the privilege to be Honorary Colonel. He wrote to me on Saturday:
"I have explained to all the troops what all this means, but they just will NOT go home".
That is the spirit, my Lords, that this Government wish to destroy.
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I was never a very great soldier, but it is forty years ago next April that I first became a Territorial. I should have thought that when the Regular Army was going to be cut down one thing was essential, and that was to maintain your Reserve; and you should, I believe, technically increase its power. If this Force is to be abolished there will be areas where for quite a few miles there will be no troops at all, and the whole of the strength of the country will be so limited that I tremble to think of the responsibilities that will lie at the feet of those who take this step. Have your Lordships forgotten that in 1938 the Territorial Army was doubled overnight because of the crisis at that time? Must I remind you that all those battalions were virtually up to strength by August, 1939, and within twenty-four hours of the call-up they were virtually 100 per cent. on parade? These, my Lords, are the people that you want to throw away. You have never understood them. Why do you not ask some people—I could name them—to come and tell you a little about the Territorials and what they stand for in this country?
The idea of this Force was to help the civil police. These men were used at the "Torrey Canyon" oil disaster, and they have been helping with the foot-and-mouth epidemic through this winter. Conversations were going on with the police authorities to see how much use they might be to them, and the police, I know, were looking forward to having them. I must make it clear now that I summoned my Executive to meet me last Monday, and at the end of the meeting there was unanimous agreement. It was not a case of looking for it: I felt it. I said, "Are we agreed that if this takes place and we are abolished, never again can we possibly raise the Territorials?" That, my Lords, is the sad fact.
On Monday of last week, at 10.30 o'clock in the morning, I received a message that the Secretary of State for Defence, Mr. Healey, would like to see me at 12 o'clock on the Tuesday. An inquiry was made to discover if there were any alternative hours, and I was informed, "No; it will be 12 o'clock on Tuesday." I went, and I was given the news in much the same way as I received it some two-and-a-half years ago. There was no consultation there was no decision. In fact, there is no plan, because

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I said to Mr. Healey, "You mentioned care and maintenance. What does this entail?". His answer to me was roughly this: "We have not had time to consider the future, and of course we cannot get on without the help of your Council." How long, my Lords, have I to stand and listen to all this? How long do you expect me to be treated like this? I look after the Territorials to the best of my ability because of this country, and I put my personal pride to one side; but there may well be a limit to what can be expected.
This morning I had a talk with Mr. Reynolds, the Minister of Defence for Administration. I asked him point blank: "What happens if I come here and say that I want the Force, the T. and A.V.R.III, to continue exactly as it is, and you must withdraw?". He said, "It would be absolutely useless, and the discussions which I have suggested we might have for the care and maintenance would never get off the floor. They would be dead." Then I asked him whether he felt that the situation was such that we might possibly have some useful discussions; and we probed in one or two places and I came to the conclusion that if we were going to be killed without discussion, that was not the part I would play. I told Mr. Reynolds this morning that I would discuss with my Working Party, which I had already set up, and that we will meet people at various levels of the Ministry of Defence to see what we can work out with whatever money they can give us.
But as I have been informed that it is worthwhile to have these discussions on the care and maintenance (and if you are going to care and maintain against the day when you may be able to expand, so as to bring us back to where we are or to an even greater strength) may I ask the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, who, I believe, is to reply for the Government to-night, whether that means what I believe it to mean: that the abolition of the T. & A.V.R. III will not take place?—because there will be no point in having these discussions if there is nothing upon which to build when that moment may come. I want to send out a message to the Territorials of this country that something will be saved and that the word "abolition" itself is abolished from that statement.
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The question of redundancy creeps in again, and I asked the Minister this morning to make it quite clear that no steps will be taken before we have had a chance to examine our proposals and to discuss them; and I understand that this will be undertaken. Eighteen months ago, in July, 1966, I informed my Council that I did not propose to continue after July of this year. During the last week I have given great thought to whether this was not the moment when I should retire. But I have come to my own conclusion that my place is beside the Territorials at this hour. They have been good enough to show their confidence in me. I will bat on in this second innings, in the hope that we shall obtain something which I shall be able to hand over to my successor next July. If we meet with final defeat I shall apologise to the Territorials of this country for my failure. I shall never surrender.
4.5 p.m.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I am exceedingly grateful for the kindly tradition that enables your Lordships to regard with sympathy those who speak in this House for the first time. This tradition is a great comfort to me and I will do my best not to abuse your Lordships' benevolence.
I regard it as extremely opportune that I speak after the noble Duke because I support a great deal of what he has said. I should regard it as detrimental to the national interest to handle the A.V.R. problem in a way that would result in the total abolition of the Territorial Army tradition. However, I would ask your Lordships to think for just a moment of how this problem came to arise. It came because the problem of the reserve forces in general, and the Territorial Army in particular, was left to "go bad" in a substantial way. The present Administration, when it tackled the problem of the Territorial Army, found—and this was only a very small aspect—that at least 40 Artillery regiments were armed with 25-pounder guns of the last war which, if they were to go into action, would require their ammunition to be specially reconstructed.
When one is faced with problems of this kind—and with burdens of cost weighing heavily overall—it is not surprising (and it has happened before,

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under all Administrations) that Gresham's Law applies: the bad drives out the good. I believe that the A.V.R.III is a military necessity but I would not put it in military terms. I would say that it has been one of the major factors in the stability of our political life. This has been so largely because, from the 17th century onwards, a dialogue has been carried on in a civilised way between the Army and the rest of the nation. It is part of the Army's glory—and I speak here as a Regular soldier—but the occasions upon which Regular soldiers, while serving, have sought to interfere in politics are extremely rare. We have to search our memories very hard to discover even isolated instances.
The fact that the dialogue has continued—and is carried out—in a civilised way is due, in my judgment, to the existence of the Territorial Army. It is a fact that we live in times of great instability—instability in the international field, instability at home. The new generations are coming along and I look at these young people and I wonder (and this is a sure sign that I am getting very old) whether they will face up to responsibility quite as I would wish them to do. But the fact that a body of men exists who are prepared to give up their leisure time in the service of their country is a major stabilising factor. Their numbers are not very great; the original figure for A.V.R.III was 22,000; and I suppose that by now they have recruited up to 15,000 or so. But if, on the budget which the noble Duke mentioned, they have done that, then I think the present Administration, of which I was recently a member, would be very wise to look again at this problem.
Your Lordships who have held administrative positions of much greater responsibility than I, will know what can happen when an unwanted item or a recently-acquired item gets on to the budget of a Department which is suddenly faced with an economy call. This item, which you have not had for very long, which you do not particularly want and which you do not know very much about—out it goes! The A.V.R. III is the victim of the fact of its transfer to the budget of the Home Office. I would suggest to your Lordships that one of the things the Government should do is bring it back from the Home Office to where
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it belongs, in the Ministry of Defence; and they should keep it on something more than a care-and-maintenance basis, because if it is left on such a basis for a number of years, then the tradition upon which is is founded will die, or at least tend to wither away.
I would congratulate the Government and the noble Duke on the fact that there are to be talks, and that in the talks there will be a careful look at the care-and-maintenance basis. An examination should be made with great care to see whether A.V.R. 111 can be preserved, not in terms of its current military value but in terms of its value as an area which fosters an understanding of the Armed Forces and which may also provide a recruiting ground (the noble Duke did not mention this), and a very valuable recruiting ground, for A.V.R. II and the Regular Army. It is for these reasons that I support the noble Duke's plea this afternoon.
I would say, however, to the noble Duke—and this point is made in no sense as a rebuke—that he was a little hard when he suggested that those who happen to hold the views that I share, or at least shared until I sat on the Cross-Benches, do not understand the Territorial Army. I joined as a volunteer when I was a youngster about the age of 16, and what I always regarded as for my sins I served in a Territorial battalion until I became a Regular. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, also served in a Territorial unit. I understand the anxiety of the noble Duke, but I hope he will not think that, because there are those who do not go the whole way with him, we do not understand and sympathise with the cause he has espoused.
My Lords, I must be very mindful of the pressure of time, but I wish to trespass on your Lordships' kindness this afternoon as there are one or two things that I think should be said. I shall go into the Division Lobby to-night in support of the Government, but I have doubts; not about the package deal, but what I would call some of the reasons on which it is based. I would remind your Lordships that in Defence matters policies take a long time to come to fruition. The period of gestation is, what?—ten years, twelve years? The wrath of the gods which is visited upon

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us now does not stem primarily from the acts of the present Administration. In my judgment it originated in the 1957–58 Defence White Paper.
What was there done by that White Paper? We abolished conscription under political pressure, and prematurely in my judgment, without regard to the consequences. What was the consequence? A bill which, at the present time, contains about the same percentage for pay, and what I would call allowances and non-effective charges, including the pay of civilians, now as then. But now ten years later we have 300,000 fewer men serving in the Armed Forces and over 100,000 fewer civilians. The result has been—because of the steps that were taken in 1957—a constant pressure on the Defence expenditure ceiling, with the result that, first, we cannot afford the equipment and, secondly, if the package deals mean anything we now cannot afford the men. I do not cast any blame. Both Parties have their share.
But there was another factor. If one reads the 1957 White Paper, one does not have to go very far before one finds it was actuated by precisely the same principles and forces which forced the Government to take the action they have taken in the present situation; precisely the same. The then Government put all their money on an independent British nuclear weapon, Blue Streak. We carried on for four years. This was succeeded by other weapons which cost a lot and achieved nothing and then in due course we progressed through Skybolt to Polaris and then F.111. But, my Lords, one of the things that astonishes me about the present White Paper (and, may I say, about that very highly intelligent band of gentlemen the defence critics) is that not one word, so far as I can discover, has been said about the continuance of Polaris.
My Lords, if you are going to withdraw from the Far East, and if in actual fact you have long since given up, as I hope we have, any belief in a British independent nuclear deterrent, what now is the purpose of the Polaris submarines? There are to be four. The first one, "Resolution", will become operational shortly. Where is it to operate? In the Atlantic, armed with A.3, at a time when the Americans have dozens of
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missiles with even greater hitting force than Polaris, and when it adds nothing to our strength? Or it is to go to the Far East? Are we going to deploy it there at the very time when we are withdrawing from the Far East? Are we going to send this expensive complex into the Far East and, if so, at what cost? What we do know is that the bill, even now, over the next decade, will run into hundreds of millions of pounds—and here we are, saving a few millions on postponing the raising of the school leaving age or saving £2½ million to get rid of A.V.R. III.
My Lords, I am always happy to place my services at the disposal of your Lordships, and I would put forward a constructive proposal. It is that the Government should offer to re-sell Polaris back to the Americans. If we could re-sell it back to them they could afford to reconstruct it. They could arm it with Poseidon. Western hitting power would thereby be increased and we should accumulate at once—because they could afford to pay us over the exchanges—some hundreds of millions of pounds which would be of practical value in the situation in which we now are.
My Lords, I turn to another factor, the position of the British Army of the Rhine. We are told in paragraph 11 of the Government White Paper—here I must try to get my quotation reasonably right—that
"our security lies fundamentally in Europe."
This is a doctrine which has been taken abroad, in my submission, for no military reason. Oh, yes!—politically, very important. This is our second obsession. It is an addition to the independent nuclear deterrent. If it is based on the intention to go into the Common Market regardless, then yes; you have to pay lip service to it. But, my Lords, how did this European commitment come about? Sir Anthony Eden, as he then was—the Earl of Avon—went in October, 1954, to a Conference in Paris—there is a very readable account about what took place in Lord Moran's book Churchill. The story is told of how Lord Moran came next morning, full of joy and great triumph, and talked to the then Prime Minister of how M. Mendes France and M. Spaak had congratulated Sir Anthony Eden on his great triumph. He recalls that General Eisenhower had said that this was

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of fundamental importance, and that Britain had taken a most tremendous step in undertaking to keep four divisions in Europe and the 2nd Tactical Air Force. Mr. Churchill said, "That? That is of no importance. We can break that at any time." And so before the ink was dry on the Paris agreement the four divisions became 77,000 the 77,000 was run down to 64,000 and then to 55,000. My Lords, if noble Lords on the Opposition Benches want to talk about broken pledges they should look at the number of occasions on which the most categorical assurances were given to our European allies and members of NATO that that 55,000 would be available. But we have never reached that figure at any time in the past ten years.
There is something even more than that. It depends for its fighting capacity on what? On atomic tactical weapons. The two we possess, the Honest John and the 8 inch Howitzer are American and they are obsolescent. That is not all the story. At the present time inside the Northern Army Group we have fewer troops than the Germans. They have 65,000 and they provide Army nuclear support weapons—the "Sergeant" and the "Pershing" without which B.A.O.R. could not fight for five minutes. If our military position in the world depends upon NATO and our position in Europe, then it is our clear duty to ensure that our forces in Europe are up to strength, that they are militarily viable and that they are armed with the weapons which are necessary for the discharge of their function.
The picture is even more ludicrous than that. In order to save offset costs, what is done is to maintain in Europe battalions which are under strength, because it makes a smaller claim on our foreign exchange if the numbers are fewer. So we have the picture of battalions at home up to establishment, and when they go to the Rhine Army they are reduced in strength. That is all right so far as display in the shop window is concerned, but in military terms it deceives nobody but ourselves. On this occasion I will not trespass further on your Lordships' kindness beyond making two suggestions, couched in military terms, both of which will help enormously our economy and our prestige. Get rid of Polaris, and either bring back the Rhine Army or equip it and man it
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to the point where it is militarily viable. If you cannot do this, bring it back.
That leaves me one final point. It is the practice, commonplace now, to denigrate the Prime Minister's integrity. Anything that can throw doubt upon his word is an accepted form. I am one of those people who judge men not by what they say but by what they do. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, when he said that this country can do much better than it is already doing, bat it can do so only if we recognise facts. The Prime Minister, when Leader of the Opposition, with great courage did something that no other leader of a political Party since the end of the war has had the courage to do. While leading a Party which contains an element of men who do not regard the use of force as morally justifiable in any circumstances, the Prime Minister offered talks in order to elevate defence beyond the Party struggle. He did that in Opposition and he has done it three times again since he became Prime Minister, with the specific intention of trying to get this problem right. Because on this a great deal depends, not only in terms of power but also in terms of prestige and of the economy. He made no progress. Would it not be fitting if your Lordships' House took the lead in this matter and on defence questions tried on all occasions to clear our minds on the facts before we argued on matters of opinion? Thus by establishing the facts we can make our contribution to building an informed public opinion, without which in a democracy little will avail.
4.24 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, there falls to me the privilege of congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, on his maiden speech. Your Lordships are always pleased when we get new Members who know what they are talking about and that applies to the noble Lord, to whom we were so delighted to listen this afternoon. We hope that on future occasions he will be able to inform us about his work in his new job, in the same way as he has informed us to-day about matters of defence. We shall look forward to hearing him on a great many other occasions.
In the short time at my disposal, I want to deal with our domestic problems rather than with our problems overseas.

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First I want to say a word about housing. I think it is lamentable if we do not try to build the largest number of houses we possibly can. All those who have worked in any form of social service realise that good housing is essential, and that if people are properly housed it lessens the demand for other services. I have for a long time been particularly interested in the elderly, and one of the great problems is connected with the houses in which they are forced, through economic and other circumstances, to live. A large number of my colleagues in the medical profession would agree that the amount of sickness which is either caused by bad housing or accentuated by bad housing is substantial. If we have first-class housing, we shall cut down the bills in all sorts of other directions. That is why I am sorry that the housing programme may be affected. I am sure that that is wrong. Turning to fields about which I do not know so much, I feel that a good deal of juvenile delinquency and broken families is caused by bad housing. To have too many people living together in cramped conditions breeds reactions and emotions which may lead finally to some kind of explosion.
I regard the roads as being part of the country's capital assets. We do not have the road system in this country that we need to have. It works all right, but we are behind some countries in Europe. I should like to think that no suggestion will be made that road programmes might be reduced, because they are of enormous practical value to this country. In parenthesis, I would add that it seems to me a curious thing that local authorities maintain secondary roads to the same standard as first-class roads. That is a practical habit if you have all the money in the world to do it with. In foreign countries secondary roads are reasonably kept up, but not to the same level as here. I wonder whether it would be worth while looking at this point—I do not go into questions of danger and accidents—because it seems to me something that might be considered.
I should now like to turn to one or two matters affecting health. I have no particular view about the issue of milk in secondary schools, but I would sug
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gest that there are some children who will not benefit from it. A good many boys and girls do not get it. I know that when I was young milk was a drink I could not stand. I took every opportunity I could of pouring it out of the window when my parents gave it to me. So I am not madly keen to give milk to boys and girls of higher ages. But I think that it should be available to children who need it, those who do not get a good breakfast before they come to school. Would it not be possible to make some kind of scheme which would allow such children to get milk without at the same time giving it to all the older schoolchildren?
I regret—although here again it may lead to other things which are good—the increase in the dental charges from £1 to 30s. I regret it not because I mind people having to pay it but because we have not a very good standard of dental hygiene in this country. In fact, a large number of people who have something wrong with their teeth go to the dentist and say, "Pull out my teeth", and do not try to conserve them. It is a bad thing to have one's teeth out, and the more one can keep one's own teeth in, the better. It is rather expensive, but that is what the dental service is for. I am wondering, now that prices for the operations are going up, whether the newly-formed Council for Education could do something to teach people to value the conserving of their teeth, even though it may cost a little more money.
Then we come to the vexed question of the prescription charges. I do not really like them, and I am not sure that, with the innumerable exceptions there are going to be, they will bring in as much money as is expected. Will they really save the doctors any time? I doubt whether they will save much time, because the people who want a prescription can often be dealt with in one or two minutes if they go and see their doctor, and for that they have to pay, whereas patients can go and see their doctor on some personal matter which they wish to discuss—matrimonial difficulties, or whatever it may be—and that may take quite a long time, for which no money changes hands at all. Yet the value to the patient can be just as great as if he is given a prescription for a drug. That, I think, is what one found when prescription

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charges were in before. There is also a danger of doctors' over-prescribing for people. They tend to give their patients more than they require so that they do not have to go back and pay an extra sum. That can take up quite a lot of the money and drugs which one would expect to save on prescription charges. The same thing applies to what I think have been called "blunderbuss" prescriptions, with people trying to get several different things put on the same prescription because they think it may be something the patient may want, though they are not sure. That again, I think, is one of the troubles that will happen if we get prescription charges.
Then there are the people who are possibly rather mean, economical, or maybe have not much money. They will not take their prescriptions to the chemist because they do not wish to spend the money. That may be a deplorable thing. I am not going into a moral judgment of it, but it may mean that somebody who needs medicine quite urgently does not get it simply because of that little difficulty put in his way in going to get it.
Another thing which I find very distressing over the prescription charges is that we have gone back to the dreadful old phrase, the "chronic sick." It is a hangover from the bad side of the Poor Law. What it means, and how it can be defined, I do not know. On one or two occasions I have put down Questions, both Starred and Unstarred, to try to find out who the Government think the chronic sick are, but I have never yet succeded in getting a satisfactory reply. Does this mean that the unfortunate doctors will have to decide who are the chronic sick? Does it mean that the Ministry will lay down certain categories? As I say, who the "chronic sick" are, I do not know, and it is a bad old phrase to have brought back.
Finally, I am pleased to see that there is to be no cut in the hospital building programme. But I wonder whether we could make some saving in the programme by cashing in on what I might call local patriotism and local interest. In the old days, before the National Health Service came in, the money was raised voluntarily for hospital rebuilding, hospital departments, and that sort of thing. When the Health Service came in in 1948 that was not allowed. But it is coming back a
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little now, with money subscribed by the friends of the various hospitals. One wonders if one could not make a real saving of money, a contribution, if you like, by encouraging local patriotism to collect money for new buildings or remodelling old buildings. One is told that any surplus money there may be is mopped up in taxation. I do not think for one moment that this is true, because one sees what large sums certain lucky voluntary agencies get regularly every year from the general public, and one sees legacies left to certain voluntary organisations. I think there is not so much money as there was, but there is a good deal of money floating around now which I believe could be tapped and which would go some way towards increasing the amount of money available for hospitals, and so go some way towards reducing the cost to the State. I have put these few points quite briefly before your Lordships because there are a number of other noble Lords to speak, and I do not want to take up too much time.
4.38 p.m.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I do not normally inflict my views upon your Lordships, and indeed I should not have ventured to do so to-day were it not for the great anxiety which I feel about the Government's policy on the Persian Gulf. This is an area with which I have a certain acquaintance, and where I should declare a business interest: indeed, I have visited the area since the devaluation crisis.
Before I come to this particular topic, I should like quite briefly to say a word or two about the economic crisis in general. I think the matter was admirably summed up for us yesterday in the brilliant speech which was made by tie noble Lord, Lord Franks. He pointed out that we had really come to what was a turning point in the affairs of this nation. He pointed out that steadily over the years our position had worsened; that rather than make economies in the past we had borrowed money abroad until eventually our credit was exhausted, and that then, in default of anything else, we had had to devalue. The noble Lord pointed out that this was, in effect., really the last chance to restore our affairs, and that if we failed now we faced nothing but further devaluation and a steady dc-cline in the prosperity of this country and

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the standard of life of our people. I believe that, by and large, this is true.
In a situation of this gravity, frankly I do not believe that this is the moment to throw political brickbats. As the noble Lord, Lord Franks, said, what we need is leadership from the Government and a national effort by the people of this country. I, for one, am convinced that if we can get the first the second will follow. But if we say this, I do not think it means that we should not face up to the causes of our present position. Indeed, in my view, if we are to survive it is absolutely essential that we should do so. On this matter I agree with a great deal of what was said by my noble friend Lord Jellicoe yesterday, and also by the noble Lord, Lord Franks.
In addition to this, I should like to pray in aid the views of Dr. Erhard, and I do this for two reasons: first of all, because as the architect of the German economic miracle I think Dr. Erhard is somebody to whom we must all listen with respect; and, secondly, because I feel sometimes that views of a friendly outsider, such a person, can see our problems more clearly than we perhaps can see them ourselves. Also, after all, Dr. Erhard has always been a very good friend of this country. I should therefore like to quote to your Lordships a passage from an article he wrote in the Sunday Telegraph of the 14th of this month entitled, "Why not a British economic miracle?" In that article he attempted to analyse the causes of our difficulties and wrote this, which I think is something to which we might pay attention:
"The root of the evil, as I have already indicated, lies partly in wrong decisions of principle as to which social and economic policies were best suited to overcome the baleful after-effects of the war. Britain decided to move towards the Welfare State. But an attempt to maintain and even expand such a Welfare State without the necessary economic strength, discipline and order can, in the long run, only end in economic collapse.
"Of course, a State cannot be blamed for wanting to give its citizens social security and protection from want. But it can be blamed for that ideological obstinacy which turns this aim into a so-called sacred cow—into a doctrine of absolute value that must be proclaimed and practised even where there is no real need for it and where large sections of the population have never accepted it.
"We Germans should be especially wide-awake and watchful in this respect, for among
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us also there are signs of a disturbing tendency to make welfare a form of compulsion. If the phenomenon of the complete Welfare State has become known as 'the English sickness' then it is not the social welfare system long practised in Scandinavia that is meant so much as this deliberate refusal to keep everything within the limits of what is materially possible. The dangers from continuing this trend, which reaches far beyond Britain, threaten the social structure of the entire free world. For if the bill being run up cannot be covered by rising productivity, the result can only be inflation. To follow such a course is no longer a pious illusion; it is deliberate self-deception."
Those words are, I think, something that we should all think about, and we might ask ourselves whether there might not be a good deal of truth in what Dr. Erhard has said. So much for the causes of the crisis.
I now should like to turn to the crisis itself. Obviously, in this situation, major cuts in Government expenditure were inevitable. But I am quite sure your Lordships would agree that it is essential that we should make the right cuts, and that we should not, in an endeavour to spare ourselves sacrifices which must be painful to all of us, cut expenditure which is calculated to improve our productive capacity and competitive efficiency, or take measures which will have an adverse effect upon our foreign trade. Whether we like it or not (as I think was said yesterday by a noble Lord), we have to face the fact that we cannot insulate ourselves from the world. We are fundamentally an international trading nation, and it is in this context that I should like to end by briefly saying a few words about the Persian Gulf.
As your Lordships will be aware, the Arab States in the Persian Gulf nearly all are under British protection, and we have therefore made promises to these people which I do not myself feel we can dishonour without previous agreement with them. I believe that if we do so, not only do we break our word, but probably worse, from the point of view of our reputation in the world, particularly as traders, we do great damage to our reputation in the world at large. I think that until recently the people in this part of the world trusted us and believed that our word was our bond. This trust, I am sorry to say, has already been fairly rudely shattered by devaluation since, believing in the Government's pledges, they left their money in sterling and suffered severe losses.

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When I was out there just after devaluation, there is no doubt that there was a feeling of considerable bitterness about this.
But, my Lords, the withdrawal of our forces from this area at this moment will, in my view, be the final blow to such little confidence as still exists in our good faith. And, quite apart from this, quite apart from any moral obligation which there may be in this part of the world, I believe there are vastly important issues at stake. As your Lordships are well aware, most of these Gulf States are rich in oil, and although it may be that their political systems are still mostly mediæval, in the sense that the Ruler still has absolute power, they have been well advised, and the wealth which they derive from oil is being expended for the benefit of their people as a whole. One has only to go there to see the schools, hospitals, housing, roads and sanitation which is steadily being improved; and one can see a steadily rising standard of life. Therefore, I say to your Lordships that these people have a vested interest in stability, because they know that in stability there will be prosperity for them. Here in a troubled world is an area of peace and prosperity, and the fact that this is so is in no small measure due to our presence in that part of the world.
But we should not delude ourselves that there are not dangers; of course there are dangers. The very wealth of these Gulf States makes them an object of envy to people like Colonel Nasser and to the N.L.F., all of whom will be only too ready to start subversion in this area; and, of course, on top of that, there is the danger of disputes between the Arab States themselves. There are many outstanding territorial claims. Iraq claims part of Kuwait; Persia claims Bahrein; Saudi Arabia claims a large part of Abu Dhabi. And the fact that these dangers are at present contained by our presence in the area does not mean that, if we were to depart, there would not be a very serious risk. I am not trying to argue, by saying this, that we have to be there. What I say is that, before we go, we must ensure that there is some stable system of security and defence and of agreement between these Arab States, which will enable us to go with a clear conscience,
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feeling that this vitally important part of the world can continue to enjoy stability.
Last night the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, talked about an orderly withdrawal. What is now proposed is not in my view an orderly withdrawal. It is, e n the contrary, a hurried, I would almost say a panic-stricken withdrawal, and we shall leave behind us a vacuum which nobody at the moment is able to fill. Therefore, I believe it is absolutely essential that we should work for a closer integration of all these States, and particularly of the great States of Saudi Arabia and Persia. I am quite sure that until something on these lines has been arranged it would be not only dishonourable but a terrible mistake for us to get out.
Finally, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to our own interests, and I mention these last because I thought this was the proper order in which to put them. Nevertheless, I think it is estimated that British firms and interests have assets of a capital value of something like £1,000 million in the Persian Gulf. We have an annual revenue in foreign exchange, mainly in dollars because oil is dealt with in dollars, of some £200 million per annum. As against this, my Lords, the total cost of our defence in the area is something between £12 million and £20 million at the outside; I should not like to put an exact figure on it. When one considers that in any case the cuts envisaged are not going to help our economy for, at any rate, two years; when it is considered, as the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, pointed out earlier this afternoon, that the Government without batting an eyelid turned down an arms contract of £200 million from South Africa; when it is considered, only as an insurance, that for £12 million to £15 million we could protect interests worth £200 million a year in foreign exchange, I must confess I cannot see the sense of this precipitate withdrawal. Unfortunately I was not present yesterday, but I read the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. If he was present he would say that I was, as I think he said, "a nonsensical blimp", and what I am saying shows complete ignorance of the elementary facts of life. He may be right. All I can say in return is that from a business point of view this seems to be midsummer madness.

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My Lords, I end as I started. I have said that I believe we are at the crossroads. I do not believe this is a moment when we can afford to make mistakes, let alone mistakes of the magnitude of this one. The mere announcement of our intended withdrawal has done immense harm in the whole of the Persian Gulf. I still do not believe it is too late to have second thoughts and, therefore, I earnestly implore the Government to give further consideration to this matter.
4.52 p.m.
LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE: My Lords, it is customary to ask for the indulgence of your Lordships' House on the occasion of a maiden speech. There have been several very remarkable speeches in the debate which has ranged over the past two days. I should like to add my tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Longford, for his moving speech on his resignation, and also to his successor for his clear defence of Government policy in his first speech after his appointment as Leader of the House. I would join with those who wish him well in that very important office. It is also very encouraging to follow the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, as perhaps it gives one better odds in favour of finishing the course.
I understand it is the custom of your Lordships' House that a maiden speech should not be controversial. But in a two-day debate of this character on the Motion which is on the Order Paper, that is a little difficult. However, I will do my best, but I am not very hopeful. The Government Motion asks for approval of the policy announced by the Prime Minister in his speech on January 16. The Opposition Amendment rather pinpoints defence, and has done so in most of their speeches of criticism. Of course, it has not been mentioned much in the past two days, but for many years we hoped for disarmament. Let us hope the Prime Minister puts his right hat on and may make some headway on this subject and Vietnam in his talks in Moscow. I think we should remember—as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, does—that the cheapest defence, to say the least, is real and effective disarmament.
The noble Earl the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said in his speech yester
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day that it is the first duty of a Government to defend its people. It is also the duty of a Government to avoid spending more than it can afford. He was answered by the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, in that remarkable speech of his, who said that all Governments have been spending more than they could afford for years. I am sure all of us who listened to Lord Thorneycroft yesterday could not have heard a more remarkable speech. In my humble view, it almost had the effect of altering the whole tone, if not the whole course, of the debate. One had to rub one's eyes a little to realise from which side of the House his speech was being made. That was a bonus for the Government. Maybe the Government's luck has changed and the imponderables are beginning to break the right way for them. In fact, so telling was the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, that one wonders whether a nostalgia for a presence East of Suez will press the Opposition to vote in their full strength to-night.
The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, made an equally strong speech to those of us who heard it last night. He spoke about the responsibilities of a Government for defence, and so on, and said that they also had the responsibility for the economic security and wellbeing of the people, without which there could be no real security in any great nation. But I think the Government, and your Lordships' House, have to face up to these realities concerning the modern cost of defence. Perhaps—as has been said in so many speeches—the East of Suez and the Gulf decision may itself be historical. Unfortunately I did not see the television broadcast by the Prime Minister of Australia, but as the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said in his speech to-day, this country would, of course, unhesitatingly go to the aid of any of its friends in the Antipodes.
If we are going to face up to realities, I think we have to remember that Australia and Canada have for some years relied on America for their main weapons and defence. The United States of America, and a great Power like Russia, have vast production lines from which they can supply the hardware of aircraft and weapons to their allies. For years we have not been in that lead. So the Government have been forced to

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cancel the order for the F.111. The cost of these new planes, the hardware, the delivery, the spares, has really become fantastic. Maybe this decision with regard to the F.111 will give our own aircraft industry a new start with its technical potential, which, as your Lordships know, is second to none in the world.
Reference has been made to the strain upon Ministers in modern-day Government—the tremendous strain of taking day-to-day decisions in constantly changing circumstances and under very great international pressures. In this modern form of government it is no longer the responsibility of Ministers merely to consider the annual review of these great problems; and the pressure on senior Ministers, individually and collectively, of world events has become enormous. I happen to believe that the present Minister is a good Minister of Defence. I think he has done his job well in most difficult circumstances. I think he has been subject to a campaign in the Press and on television which amounts almost to political character assassination. How can a Minister responsible for the defence of this country, and all that this entails in negotiations with other Powers, function in that kind of atmosphere? In any event, he has shown great courage and he is carrying on and doing an extremely difficult job well. I personally hope that the Press and television headliners are satisfied that they are doing a good job in a free society in this campaign. There are countries in the world where this sort of licence by a free democracy, a free society, without full responsibility has perhaps led in the end to government by a Committee of Colonels.
If I may refer again to the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, he said yesterday, "Well, we have been hare before; we have had it all before". Of course we have. I believe that one of the great changes which has taken place in the technique of modern government in parliamentary democracy is that in fact we are in an era of constant or instant government by economic regulators. We have the autumn Budgets, the Estimates; but, as the noble Lord said, they are introduced by all Governments. In a sense the Cabinet are rather like a board of directors who are in constant session. Of course they have to change
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their minds. When a board of directors such as the present-day Cabinet are faced with vast and immense responsibilities they cannot go on treating those problems as though they are selling a bottle of patent medicine.
Of course they have to exercise sound and good judgment in the decisions which they take. It is not only what the Government here desire: their decisions are affected by the decisions of other countries with whom we are trading and dealing all over the world, and by what Sir Winston Churchill once called "our old friends the imponderables and the march of world events". In the old days Governments introduced the Queen's Speech; they had their Budgets, and, at worst, they might have an autumn Budget. But that situation has now gone, and the economic and financial statements, and the economic regulators which are made by the Govment, of whatever Party, from time to time have largely taken their place. In fact it has created what amounts to a new ministerial practice. As I have said, a Minister to-day changes his mind and his decisions, and is forced to change his policy on current affairs; but anyone who thinks that he should therefore have to suffer, as some people have said, what amounts to political character assassination is, in my view, living in a bygone age, to say the least. Those who think this way ought to have 24 hours on the day-to-day running of the centre of the sterling area, for which this country is responsible, and all that that means, and upon which we depend for our lives.
In the package which has been produced, and the cuts, following on devaluation, as has been said by so many noble Lords, if we are not to lose the value of devaluation we have to increase our productivity in the export trade. A great number of speeches have been made upon this subject and there have been television appearances, broadcasts, and the like. But has it got through to the factory floor? If we are really going to do something, apart from listening to speeches about it, I think these things depend upon the managing director putting forward his productivity and incentive schemes to the men and to the unions and getting their agreement. And I believe that it can be done.

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The best incentive, of course, is the pay packet, or the take-home salary, or the final dividend with which one is left. But incentive schemes, if they are tackled by the managing director, who puts them over to his people in the workshops, can be linked to increased productivity and to the export trade. I hope very much that we are going to make a fresh attempt to get down to the factory floor level on this vital problem, without the solution to which all the cuts and all the things that have been done hitherto will have been done in vain.
I think this applies also to those industries which have to take the place of some of the imports at the present time. Of course I can talk about this subject; there can be television appearances, and somebody else can make a speech about it. But is any action being taken considering the vast amount of stuff that is being imported into this country—stuff that could be made here by our own designers and producers and by our own workpeople? Also I hope that the Government will not lose sight of the tremendous importance of increasing our own agricultural productivity and output.
I listened with great interest last night to the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, and I agree with much of what he said. We must have a changed mentality on many of these problems. If I may say so to the noble Lord, we, as a nation, must worship efficiency as never before. If we are to survive, and if we are ever going to become a great industrial power-house, to get our balance of payments right as a self-respecting people, this question of efficiency must be tackled right through the nation, through industry, nationalised or national industry, Government Departments, public services—the lot. In every walk of life, if we are not going to be efficient let us throw in the hat, because we have not a chance. Other countries with which we are competing are efficient and are working hard—and I know that their people are taking home a good pay packet. But until we can tackle this problem nationally, in every way that I have suggested, I do not think we shall be able to solve it. And this certainly applies to the enormous burden that Whitehall, whether it is efficient or not,
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is carrying at the present time, and illustrates the vital necessity to transfer some of its responsibilities to the regions.
I could not help remembering, when the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, was speaking, the price that we have had to pay for the "never had it so good" mentality. If ever there was a fundamental error in political psychology, that was it. I think the public have at last been told the truth by the Prime Minister, and the answer now is to face realities: it is up to them. Coming into this House what impresses me about your Lordships' House is the absence of rancour or the sharp knife of Party warfare. As so many noble Lords have said in their speeches, we have in this House a great and objective part to play in helping to promote the right image, the modern image, in a progressive democracy, and to show that we in this country can still make it work.
5.12 p.m.
LORD KAHN: My Lords, it is a great privilege to be the first Member of your Lordships' House to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Granville of Eye, on his maiden speech. It was a speech of sincerity, a quality which is very much appreciated in your Lordships' House. Indeed, perhaps I might venture to say that this debate has been outstanding for this quality of sincerity. To-day, like yesterday, has been notable for maiden speeches, and I should like in a general way to pay my own tribute to the other maiden speakers as well.
At the end of his speech this afternoon the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said that he supported an incomes policy, and the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, ended his speech on much the same theme. My difficulty is that if the context is that of the present Government's present incomes policy I agree very much with the words used yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Franks, in yet another maiden speech, "a certain haziness and fuzziness of outlook".
Your Lordships are no doubt familiar with the paragraph in the Prime Minister's Statement that deals with the subject of incomes policy, paragraph 59, and I will not spend time reading it. But I should like to read a passage from a speech made by the Prime Minister in

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another place in the debate last Thursday on the same subject. He said:
"We have agreed with the T.U.C. that we are as concerned as it is to see that the voluntary system does not break down, but equally, while its figure, given the greatest degree of industrial statesmanship by the T.U.C. and the member-unions and cooperation by the C.B.I., could be realisable, we cannot afford more, and this we have told the T.U.C.
"We have made clear that if this ceiling figure were to become a minimum, or to be substantially exceeded, then not only will it be necessary, as my right honourable friend [the Chancellor of the Exchequer] has made clear, for any excess beyond this figure to be taken back at a national level by increased taxation, but, also, that the voluntary system in which the Government, this House, unions and management generally have placed their trust, would have to be substantially strengthened, if need be by new powers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 18/1/68, col. 1987.]
I simply pause to comment that I do not quite understand how a voluntary system can, if it is to remain voluntary, be strengthened by new powers.
I should like first to deal with the reference made in that passage by the Prime Minister to the question of taxation. If wages go up too fast you take out the difference in additional taxes, an idea which is I think attributable to the new Chancellor of the Exchequer. It sounds first of all rather like keeping the whole form in because one boy has behaved badly. But, of-course, there is more in it than that. I think it is based on the idea that, at any rate for a time, if wages go up too fast the cost of living will fail to keep pace with them, and there will be an increase in the level of real wages above what the economy can stand, and that is the reason for compensatory action by adding to the burden of taxes. Even granted the argument—which is, I think, a rather short-run argument—of course these extra taxes do nothing to remedy the basic harm that is done by unduly rapidly rising wages. The effect on money costs of production and on the competitive position of the country, of the extra taxes will if anything only exacerbate the problem.
Devaluation—this has very often been said—puts this country into a wonderful position. It would be tragic if the benefit were lost in the course of only a few years. I imagine that if money earnings were to rise by no more than 5 per cent. a year the country would retain in a com
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petitive sense the position in which devaluation places it. But suppose that money earnings, instead of rising at 5 per cent. a year, were to rise at 8 per cent. a year assisted by the drift, which is quite easily possible, then the benefit of devaluation for exports would last three and a half years. The noble Lord, Lord Franks, spoke yesterday of "a year or two at most", but I think that in that passage the noble Lord was perhaps being unduly pessimistic.
Another point in the passage which I have read from the speech in another place by the Prime Minister relates to co-operation with the C.B.I. When the Government pretty well renounced responsibility for taking a leading role in a tripartite policy with the T.U.C.and C.B.I. in operating a prices and incomes policy, they relied on co-operation of a fruitful kind between the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. I will read from the Economic Review, 1968, published a few days ago, what the T.U.C. have to say on this subject, phrased perhaps in somewhat restrained language:
"Relations with the C.B.I. It cannot be said that the T.U.C.-C.B.I. Committee has as yet achieved any remarkable breakthroughs. It has tended to discuss general issues in general terms, and on none of them have the exchange of views so far resulted in a noticeable change of attitude on either side."
Then they go on in this document to try to be a little more hopeful about the future. But it is too late to go on being hopeful about the future. We must deal with the present, and seize our opportunity or it will be gone for ever.
I do not think it is too uncharitable to say that the Government's view about the T.U.C's incomes policy is, first of all, that the Government do not really agree with that policy; secondly, the Government do not think that the T.U.C. are capable of carrying out even their own policy; bat thirdly, that the T.U.C. must be given an opportunity to demonstrate that failure. I would suggest to the Government that they are making a serious psychological mistake in announcing their methods in a series of penny packets. As the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, put it yesterday:
"Once again the economy is being exposed to the erosion of Government by driblets."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23/1/68, col. 148.]

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This method of operation prevents the generation of a sense of crisis calling for sacrifice and undermines confidence in the Government.
The Prices and Incomes Act 1967, which is the Act which puts some teeth into the Prices and Incomes Act 1966, is a temporary Act which lapses in the coming August. Would it not be much better if the Government were to announce at once that the reserve powers are to be prolonged, and indicate that these reserve powers are intended for use only on somewhat rare occasions, and intended as a backing to the T.U.C. in the carrying out by the T.U.C. of their policy, and not as an attack on the Trade Union Movement?
Yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Carron, in another notable maiden speech, said that it would be a massive disappointment if voluntary restraint failed, thereby compelling the intervention by the Government, which in the circumstances would in his opinion be inevitable. I agree with the noble Lord. It would be a massive disappointment. The country is not in a mood for many more disappointments. Far better, I suggest, to face the issue now. I would not myself despair of convincing the T.U.C. that the announcement by the Government of the intention to retain compulsory reserve powers was to be a help to the T.U.C. in carrying out their policy.
Now a word about the T.U.C.'s policy on wages. In the document from which I have quoted they deal with the period from the middle of 1968 to the middle of 1969. They make what I think the Government and others believe to be the somewhat optimistic forecast, that productivity—output per head—will rise in that twelve months period by 5 per cent. From that they argue that it would be all right if wage-earnings were to rise on the average during that period by the same figure of 5 per cent.
Quite properly, in this document the T.U.C. make an allowance for local bargaining of 1½1 per cent. in the twelve months. That leaves 3½ per cent., or, as the T.U.C. prefer to put it, 3½ to 4 per cent., in that twelve months period for rises in wages brought about by national settlements. If that was the achievement by June, 1969, I think it would be a
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most remarkable one. But I am afraid that I cannot pretend that I think that, if left to the T.U.C., it is likely to be attained.
One has to remember that all these figures are averages. If some national negotiations result in national wages going up by more than 3½ per cent. in the twelve months period, it requires that other national negotiations shall either not take place at all or shall result in a smaller rise in wages during that twelve months period. If some local bargains affecting some sectors of the labour force bring about more than a 1½ per cent. addition to the rise brought about by national settlements in that twelve months period, then others must bring about none at all or very little.
I repeat my plea, the same plea as that put forward yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Franks. Devaluation, irrespective of the character of its causation, presents the country with a wonderful opportunity. If that opportunity is frittered away it would be a national tragedy.
5.26 p.m.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, I want to take your Lordships back again to the problem of the defence cuts. As so much has been said already, I do not intend to keep your Lordships long; but I think there are still one or two points that should be made from this Dispatch Box.
I want, first of all, to say a word about the Far East and the question of the base there. We recognise the enormous cost of such a base as Singapore. When I was acting as colonel of my regiment a few years ago I went out to Singapore, and I was horrified at the enormous administrative overheads that have to exist there. The trouble about our forces is that they are very much married and they have large families. In the distant parts of the world this involves expensive flats, schools, staff for schools, buses to take the children to school, buses to take the families shopping; and the bill becomes simply enormous before anything whatsoever to do with defence emerges. It is clear that nowadays, particularly after devaluation, we cannot keep this going, even if we want to.
I was most impressed with the wonderful maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Thorneycroft yesterday. I believe

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that we should start cutting down that base now. But if the Government must make a plan to cut down, let them make it a planning date and consult with the people on the spot and with the heads of States before announcing what is to be done. I do not understand why it should be necessary to say that we are going to take everything away. The word "base" has become a dirty word. I believe that in certain parts of the world where we are still really welcome and where we are asked to stay, a few troops are all that is required to give confidence. They can look after equipment which it is perhaps difficult to transport by air and which it takes a long time to move by sea. I am sure that if we are asked to remain in any part of the world we should get round the table with the heads of the countries who are interested and see what we can do to help. Before the war we did not need a big base everywhere. We had a couple of companies of about 200 men in Cyprus to keep order. There were some nasty riots, but this force was quite adequate to handle the situation. Somehow we seem now to require such a very large hammer, very often to crack a very small nut.
So that my advice to the Government would be to look at these problems, in conjunction with those who are most anxious that we should not abdicate all our responsibilities, as quickly as possible, to see what we should do to help. But that by no means is saying that we should stay if we are not wanted. After all, we have done a lot, and are doing a good deal now, in different parts of the world with very small training teams, just a handful of seconded officers. The whole of the Malayan Army, when it was re-formed, was run by British officers gradually handing over to Malayan officers, until at present it is an entirely Malayan force. Yet they still like to see a few of us around the place, and this does not cost very much money. This ultimatum by the Government has wounded all our friends and it makes everything very much more difficult.
I should like now to say something about capability. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his most interesting opening speech said:
"We shall, however, still possess a general capability which will be available, if necessary, for deployment overseas at short notice, so that we can not only fulfil our obligations
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to our remaining dependent territories but also, if necessary, go to the help of our friends and allies."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23/1/68, col. 140.]
We on this side of the House entirely agree with that. But to affirm that we should retain this sort of capability, iii the light of the cuts which are being made and our position in the world, is a very sweeping statement. I will not deal with this subject now, but we shall pursue it vigorously in a defence debate, because we want to know exactly how this capability can be retained. The Government must realise that, if they are serious about this, it is very difficult in peace time to go anywhere and be effective without even a skeleton organisation on or near the spot. And no one has mentioned that if we ever had to put this capability into effect, somebody would do everything possible to stop our doing it.
Then, in addition to the question o" being able to send troops to tar distant places with difficult climates, there is the question of acclimatisation. Again many of your Lordships will be bored by my rubbing it in; but we have thrown away one place where we can do this—the Island of Malta, where we are very welcome indeed and where there is an excellent climate for acclimatisation to hot countries. I do not think that we now have anywhere else; or we shall not have when we leave Singapore and Malaysia.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, in the interests of brevity in my speech yesterday I cut out a passage on overseas training. We have certainly not ruled this out, and indeed we hope that our forces, as they do now, will do overseas training in different parts of the world, if they are welcome there. This does not fully meet the noble Lord's point on acclimatisation, but it goes some way towards it.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. We have had in the past very friendly discussions on this subject. The great difficulty, of course, is the enormous expense of sending troops. One would like to send battalions, as they have been sent, to Australia and to Canada, but I feel that that is now going to be more difficult than ever. However, I am delighted that this matter is being borne in mind by the Government.

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Whenever I have spoken in defence debates I have reminded your Lordships that we must consider the distant future, not only to-morrow, but the day after tomorrow, a future which no one can possibly predict; the future world of your Lordships' grandchildren and great-grandchildren. And we must never allow our forces to be so emasculated that they cannot be increased in time of national emergency.
The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, mentioned this when he referred to a threat to the integrity of Australia and New Zealand, and said that in such a case we should almost certainly be "involved in a situation of mobilisation." God forbid that such a thing should ever happen, but I am glad to see that the noble Lord has obviously not lost sight of it. Yet it is difficult to see how under the present organisation proposed by the Government we could ever meet such a serious situation. Therefore in any course which the Government are considering—and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred to further disbandments and amalgamations—I hope that this will be remembered. After all, the Government tell us that in a year or two's time we shall be prosperous again. But they do not say that when we reach that happy position they will repair our defences. I hope that when the noble and learned Lord replies he will be able to give us an assurance on this matter.
I want finally to say a word about the reserve forces. I shall keep my remarks very short because I am sure, like all your Lordships, that after having heard the impressive speech of the noble Duke there is very little left to say from this side of the House since we agree entirely with everything he said. What the noble Duke said is the policy of our Party, and it is only necessary for me to underline his words so that there is no doubt that the Conservative Party are behind him. It is monstrous that A.V.R.III is being abolished almost as soon as it is created. Our Territorial Army has always been known as the cheapest military force in the world, and for many years it has been the envy of every Continental country, who consider us quite mad to do away with a force which is inspired with such a terrific voluntary spirit and costs the country so little. The A.V.R.III, even
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though ill-equipped and given little encouragement by the Government, has already risen to the challenge of the splendid spirit of voluntary service which was shown by the Territorial Army in two world wars. If the sum to be saved were large, one might be prepared to bow to the inevitable; but A.V.R.III costs such an absurdly small proportion of our national income that I ask the Government to think again. I would remind the Government (this was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, in his most interesting and admirable maiden speech) that A.V.R.II, which is the reserve for the Regular Army, is greatly supported by A.V.R.III, and will be very adversely affected if this force is to be disbanded. It may even make it completely worthless and we shall have to think again haw to produce reserves.
I have referred to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, which I found most impressive. For many years as a soldier, and indeed since retiring, I have been most interested in everything the noble Lord has said. He has always spoken up for the Army. I have not always agreed with him, but I have always admired the tremendous research which he undertakes—and this was certainly the case when he was in Opposition—to back his views as to any improvements which are necessary. I am very glad indeed that he has joined your Lordships' House. We have a number of us in all parts of the House who are very interested in defence, and he and the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, are two very welcome recruits who will, I hope, speak up often on these matters.
The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, was going to speak but, to show the friendliness of the "Defence Club" on all sides of the House, he has entrusted me with saying a few words on his behalf. But in case I forget it and am corrected by him, I should say that he is definitely going to vote for the Government in this debate. However, at the same time he agrees entirely with us, and would have echoed our plea that this cheap little force, A.V.R. III, which is growing in efficiency should be retained.
He and I are equally certain that, if it is kept, it ought to be returned to the Ministry of Defence and taken away from the Home Office. It should never have been given to the Home Office, and I

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hope that the noble Duke will succeed in his efforts to get it retained and put under the Ministry of Defence.
In another place, my right honourable friend Mr. Enoch Powell has emphatically stated, and I repeat it here, that we shall do our best to restore a Territorial Army that is a genuine citizen volunteer force, and I know that we shall have the backing of the whole country in our efforts when we do it.
5.42 p.m.
BARONESS STOCKS: My Lords, I must apologise for concentrating on a very small item in the Government's "package", compared with the enormously important worldwide issues which have been under discussion in the course of this debate. But I should like to speak a word or two of comfort to those noble Lords on this side of the House who have been occasioned some real distress by the reimposition of prescription charges. I am a devoted and very active adherent of the National Health Service. I think it is the finest, the most imaginative, the most comprehensive of all our welfare services in this country, and perhaps in every other country, and I believe it has paid a wonderful dividend in terms of public health. I should, indeed, be prepared to fight in the last ditch against any attempt to impose charges upon patients for medical advice or medical treatment. But I think that the prescription charges raise a slightly different question.
When the charges were abolished by the present Government, I feared that that would bring into the already overcrowded, overworked surgeries of general practitioners a number of people who normally would go to the local chemist and pay, quite gladly, without hardship, for their aspirins, their laxatives, their cough mixtures and the sort of things that people normally buy and use without going to the doctor. I feared that many of those people would appear in doctors' surgeries demanding attention. It seems to have happened, because we have had a very great increase—I think it was something over 16 per cent.—in the number of items prescribed since the relaxation of the charges.
Certainly, some of my colleagues on this side of the House would say that that 16 per cent. represents hard-pressed people who, for the first time, are able
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to acquire medicaments of various sorts which are necessary for their health. I would question that, and I think quite a number of the extra applicants and extra items are simply the result of rather frivolous and not very necessary demands for free medicines. I am basing that assumption on conversations I have had with very many general practitioners working under the National Health Service. As a member of the Inner London Executive Council, I have been closely in touch with them in connection with the private practitioner side of the Service.
The Government's proposal involves certain exceptions—the under-15s, which will, I think, alleviate any hardship that might be caused to low-wage families with a number of children; the over-65s and the chronic sick. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, expressed some doubt as to whether it was possible to define the "chronic sick", and as he spoke I was reminded of a remark made by a legal luminary in a discussion connected with a recent prosecution over an obscene book. He said, "I cannot define 'pornography', but I know it when I see it." Probably a general practitioner may not be able to define "chronic sickness", but he knows it when he sees it.
It has been suggested, and I think this morning's issue of The Times indicated, that such discrimination would inflict an unnecessary burden on general practitioners, and that is possibly so. But the burden of discrimination which general practitioners already bear is so enormous that I cannot believe that the extra accession of discriminatory burden can make very much difference. They are responsible for giving certificates or withholding certificates. They are responsible for giving or not giving, at their discretion, letters for hospital treatment or for in-patient treatment. They are responsible for calling in or for not calling in the services of specialists and consultants. Their whole life in a modern surgery is compounded of responsibility, and I think that the free list would be quite easy to operate fairly, leaving a great deal of responsibility in the hands of the general practitioner.
It would be quite easy to furnish a separate prescription pad. I think that the existing pad with the prescription forms is numbered E.C.10. The doctor

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could have a separate pad of forms numbered E.C.10a, or whatever it may be. It has been suggested that the free prescription form might be printed in a different colour. I should deprecate that, because I think that people are apt to walk in and out of surgeries and go through waiting rooms with their prescription forms in their hands, and a different colour might emphasise that discrimination. But I feel perfectly convinced, from my knowledge of general practitioners and of the work they do and the patients they serve, that they would welcome, and do welcome, the return of prescription charges; and that it will mean a much greater relief to them than any extra burden of discrimination that is placed upon them.
Of course, in principle, it is an adulteration of the pure milk of the free medical service, and I think it could be argued that, with rather freely-given exceptions, it would involve an inconsiderable amount of public money—inconsiderable when compared with what we are prepared, I presume, to spend on manufacturing and subsidising those odious, unwanted, prestige symbols, the supersonic Concordes. I base my plea for prescription charges not on the saving of public money, but on the saving of general practitioner time. It may be that noble Lords on the other side of the House will agree with what I say for the wrong reasons. It may seem to them to represent the beginning of the imposition of medical charges generally. I cannot help that. I do not mind them agreeing for the wrong reasons if I can persuade some noble Lords on this side of the House to agree for the right reasons.
5.50 p.m.
LORD ANNAN: My Lords, so many admirable speeches have been made on technical issues during this debate, notably from our maiden speakers, that I hesitate to try to recall the House to some of the broad issues which are before us. I think it is essential to keep these broad issues in our minds because, at any rate for myself, having them in my mind, I want to try to explain why, from these Benches, I shall go into the Lobby tonight to vote for the Government and against the Amendment. The broad issues which are before us, which really have been the aims of this country for the past 15 to
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20 years, are three. The first is maintaining a peacekeeping role, not only in Europe but at one time in the Middle East, and to-day even in the Far East; the second is maintaining sterling as a reserve currency, and maintaining the sterling area; and the third is increasing the standard of living and the welfare of the people of this country, and increasing the efficiency of our productive capacity.
My Lords, those three aims have failed. They have failed because they are incapable of all being realised with the resources of this country. It has been beyond the power of any Government to do this. It has been beyond the power of both Conservative and Labour Governments to do this; and they have failed because we have been stretched beyond our resources. That is why we have had the reappraisal and the cuts which we are debating now. The Government are blamed for these cuts, but this reappraisal is long overdue. But for the results of the 1964 Election, this reappraisal would have had to be done by the Conservative Party, because the Conservative Party, as a Government, ran into difficulties during the 1960s. With the 1960s came an end to that long, happy period in the 1950s when there was a shortage of consumer goods all over the world and we were able to have a ready export market. But in the 1960s we faced increasing competition, and we all know the difficulties of those years.
These difficulties coincided with a period of vast public expenditure by the Conservative Government on education, transport and welfare, and also, of course, there was enormous expenditure on defence. All these new kinds of expenditure were put into the pipeline in the 1960s, but we did not get the growth during the 1960s to pay for them. To take the one Report which I know well, almost by heart, the Robbins Report, its recommendations were based on a calculation that we should have a 3½ per cent. growth rate. We have not had that growth rate. That, of course, is why we ran into difficulties regarding expenditure on higher education, and indeed on the educational system as a whole. That is why, when the Labour Government took office in 1964, they faced a financial crisis which was not of their making.
That crisis, of course, was the one which Mr. Maudling was responsible for

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as Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not wish to blame Mr. Maudling. I think that Mr. Maudling, according to his own lights, was trying to do what the country as a whole believed in as a policy. He was trying to increase growth by expansion. Although I think he went dangerously far in that as the General Election drew near and did not use the regulator as it should have been used at that time (for fear, of course, of its effect on the result of the Election), it was nevertheless a reasonable aim; and if the present Government are to be blamed for the failure of their policies in not achieving growth, I think we should also realise that other, previous Governments, should also be blamed.
Now when Labour came to power it had a terribly difficult problem to face. In the very first weeks there was this problem of whether to devalue or not. I do not regard "devaluation" as a dirty word. I think it is one of the many means by which the economy can be manipulated. The decision was taken not to devalue. I do not want to go at all into the reasons why that decision was taken; there was obviously very much pressure from our American allies. But, leaving that aside, the Labour policy was to try, again through growth, to obtain the margin necessary to carry the three commitments which I mentioned at the beginning of my speech. This attempt again failed in July. 1966. We could not get the growth; and, of course, the reason for that was partly due to the great increase in public expenditure which at the very time when the Labour Government took power began to come through the pipeline in terms of commitments, with some of which, of course, they agreed but with others of which they did not agree. But they were commitments which inescapably they had to accept.
My Lords, there is no villain in this piece. There is certainly no single villain. We all know how complex are the difficulties of maintaining the balance of payments. We all know the problems which we as a country face in reorganising our productive capacity and in making every institution more productive. We should all recognise that among our difficulties in recent years has been the escalation of the Vietnam war, with the weakness of American currency as a result and, therefore, the decrease
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in international liquidity. That has greatly endangered our own position. But among our Government Departments there is one which I do not think is usually associated in people's minds with great public expenditure, and yet, in a sense, it is the Department which creates a demand for immense public expenditure. That Department is the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office, by its foreign policy, creates commitments overseas which the Ministry of Defence has to meet.
Now our foreign policy, it seems to me, has for long been overdue for reappraisal; and here I should like to draw a distinction between the foreign policy of this country in recent years and that of France. In this country, President de Gaulle is not perhaps the most popular Head of State at the moment, but one thing that President de Gaulle does understand is power. One of his most notable achievements in France was to reduce the defence and overseas commitments of that country. He did so, let us be quite clear, by breaking every pledge he had ever made; so that when we talk about the breaking of pledges (to which I shall return in a moment) I think we should bear in mind that you cannot have a reappraisal of a major question of foreign policy, or of any home policy, without in fact the so-called breaking of pledges.
THE EARL OF WOOLTON: My Lords, if the noble Lord would forgive my interrupting him, may I ask whether he is advocating that we should have our foreign policy based on that of the General?
LORD ANNAN: No, my Lords. What I was trying to do was to draw an analogy with General de Gaulle's power in France, he having changed its foreign policy from one with great overseas commitments. Of course, in the case of Indo-China, he was not in power at the time France withdrew from that country; but there were commitments, particularly in Algeria, and commitments also in the French Imperial possessions. This is, of course, an analogy with what is happening by way of cuts in the Far East at the moment.
If I may go back a little further, perhaps General de Gaulle also remembered, as he is a man who has always, the

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history of his country in his mind, the situation in France in the eighteenth century—the situation, in fact, which led to the French Revolution—when France was grossly over-extended, keeping an enormous land army in Europe to fight European wars, and trying at the same time to maintain and perhaps extend its Empire abroad. On the other hand, in the eighteenth century this country certainly took on commitments overseas and fought wars overseas, but it paid allies on the Continent, from German States and Austria, to do its fighting for it in Europe.
The British policy in the eighteenth century was the wise one and the French policy was the disastrous one. Again going back into history, you will find the same analogy with Spain in the seventeenth century. And these comparisons are not irrelevant, because, of course, this is a problem which faces every country which has been a major power and which has had a great role in the world and then from the point of view of foreign policy has had to make a reappraisal. The Labour Party is not alone in believing that we should cut our commitments overseas. This has been urged in the City of London by the merchant bankers time and time again. If you talk to the merchant bankers you will find that they said that any attempt by Britain to have an independent foreign policy, when it cannot sustain it because it is economically unable to do so, is an illusion. It is not, as I say, simply a piece of doctrinaire Left-Wing thought.
Of course, this policy of trying to maintain vast commitments overseas has led us into the defence difficulties which have been so often in our minds: for example, the TSR.2 and Skybolt. And these projects, of course, came from Conservative Ministers whose patriotism does not come into question. Mr. Julian Amery comes to my mind as I speak. Mr. Julian Amery is particularly well known for his passionate feeling that this country ought to play an independent role in the world. But it is patriotism of a misguided kind; and he led this country, it seems to me, into massive expenditure which has never seen any return of any kind.
My Lords, the only thing I have found at all to question, therefore, in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, which
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I greatly admired and which I thought courageous, was when he tried to reassure noble Lords on the Benches opposite that we still would remain top of the league in defence in Europe. I shall be frank. I wish we were equal at the top of the league with other Powers. I think this is another adjustment which will have to come. People talk about broken pledges but there are pledges which have to be broken when you try to make a reappraisal of your policy. If I may remind your Lordships, certain pledges were undoubtedly broken by the first Labour Government after the war. They were the pledges to the Indian princes when we quit India. Does anybody doubt that it was right for us to quit India? Does anybody now doubt that if we had not done so it would not have been massacres, terrible and appalling as they were, which took place between the Hindu and the Moslem populations; it would have been massacres of British soldiers? This is relevant to the point mentioned a moment ago: why cannot we keep small garrisons overseas? That seems to me to invite disaster. Cyprus was mentioned. That is a case in point. If you keep a small garrison overseas it invites escalation of a conflict which you cannot sustain. In fact, it seems to me that in the 1950s and the 1960s, time and time again we have been pressed out, often in humiliating circumstances, from places which we never should have been defending.
But I should like to refer to one point that the noble Lord the Leader of the House made in his opening speech, when he pleaded that those who oppose these cuts should say what alternatives they would wish to put in their place. Not one word have we heard from the other side of the House on this point. I have had to look up the debate in another place I have found that Members of the Opposition in the other place said on this point that they would put two kinds of cuts in place of these vast defence cuts. One was to reduce the number of civil servants; the other was to cut school meals.
Let us be clear about a reduction it; the Civil Service. The Civil Service is the organisation by which, and through which, vast kinds of welfare and other services are given to the public. I am the last to say that the Civil Service could not be cut; I think it could. I think

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for example—at least, I am so informed; for I am not competent to give this as an opinion—that the Land Commission could disappear overnight and be replaced simply by a piece of legislation which would do the work that the civil servants in the Land Commission try to do. But on that I should not really express an opinion. Nevertheless it is an illusion to think that you can cut the Civil Service without cutting the welfare and social services and services in all directions. The second thing we are asked to do is to cut school meals. This, I think, gives a clue to what the Opposition must have in mind, if they say they dislike so passionately these defence cuts. To cut school meals is to do that which affects the poorest classes in our community. Is it really the intention that these are the classes that should suffer if we have to make a reappraisal of this kind?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord at this point? I think he must either not have been in the House of Commons or has not read properly the Hansard of another place. What was suggested by my right honourable friend Mr. Macleod was that, however unpopular it might be, it might in the national interests be better to cut school meals than to postpone the raising of the school-leaving age. It was nothing whatever to do with defence.
LORD ANNAN: My Lords, I am sorry not to be able to agree with the noble Lord. I do not think this is the point. I think you have here two kinds of cuts. You must face the question that if you do not cut defence, what are you to put in its place? The answer must be cutting those things which we hope are going to increase our productivity in the country or cutting social welfare. I believe the Government took the right choice. That is why I shall go into the Lobby to vote for the Government, because I do not believe that the old imperialist role which the defence costs were meant to sustain can any longer be sustained by this country. I believe in the arguments and actions of the Government in defending the social services and, above all, in trying in their way to improve productivity in this country. These are the important things.
6.7 p.m.
LORD BOURNE: My Lords, a great deal has been said already in this debate,
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and I will try not to repeat what has already been covered. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Annan, on one particular point; but I will come to that in a moment. I should like to return to the question of defence cuts, because there are one or two angles on it which have not been touched upon. The first is the arithmetic. Here I should like to ask the Government a question. When the present Administration came into power, the rate of expenditure was 6·8 per cent. of our gross national product Through various cuts over three year; they have reduced it to 6·5 per cent Now they tell us, in the latest package, that they will reduce the amounts to a total of £1,600 million instead of the £2,200 million that they inherited. I should like to know what percentage that is of the gross national product—because the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, last night read out a list of expenditures by the European Powers, France, Germany and Italy, to show that in fact we spend more Whether we spend more or not I am not quite sure, because it depends on the answer to that question.
But let me speak in terms of manpower—and that is only one way of measuring the figure. Incidentally I am quoting from the same document as did the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for we happen to belong to the same society. The manpower of the forces maintained by Italy is 416,000; by France, 520,000 and by Germany 460,000. According to the latest package, I calculate that the United Kingdom forces will by 1972 be 340,000. Although mechanically we may be the top Power in Europe, so far as manpower is concerned it will not be so. I do not quarrel with that, necessarily, because I agree that we have to face very heavy cuts at the present time. I am not challenging the width and depth of those cuts at the present time, although I must observe, as has been said, that the cuts in the defence forces are much higher than those in the social services.
Another arithmetical effect of these cuts which has not yet been mentioned is the question of keeping up in the modern technique of weapons. If we do not have the best equipment we shall suffer if we ever have to fight, as any naval officer will quote from the experience of the "Hood" and the "Bismarck". I think the "Hood" was

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sunk in two minutes, or something dreadful like that. The same thing occurred when the British Army, fighting with its latest tanks, came up against the German "Tiger" tank. The British tanks were out-gunned, out-ranged and out-armoured. It took several British tanks to defeat one "Tiger" tank.
Similarly, although I know the question of roles comes into it, with the Royal Air Force. That, above all, is a Service that needs the most modern weapons. To try to cover up the loss of the F.111, which would have been the most modern swing-wing and the fastest aircraft with long range in any Service; to say that the others will do, would, of course, be found not to be true if you happened to be driving the thing in the air and you met—
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to intervene? I do not know whom he is accusing of covering up, but he certainly should not accuse me of covering up on the loss of the F.111, if he heard me yesterday.
LORD BOURNE: My Lords, I am not accusing the noble Lord, the Leader of the House. I should not do that unless he actually said it, and he did not. It has been said in another place and it has been said on television. Whoever said it, the fact will be, I am afraid, that the Royal Air Force will be equipped with second line aircraft.
The next thing I should like to come to is the strategic policy, and I shall finish with a plan at the end. I am sure that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will be pleased to hear that there is a plan coming, especially in view of the remarks of the last speaker who said that no one had yet offered one. I should like to offer a plan for the defence cuts. When it comes to the strategic policy, I agree entirely with what was said last night by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, that we must be very careful (I am paraphrasing the noble Lord) to make sure that we keep up with the new climate of weapons and the technology of new weapons, especially nuclear weapons. One effect of the nuclear weapons, and the terrific superiority of the two super Powers, has been that there have been no general
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wars; but there has been a great number of very serious limited wars. I will not go through the list of them. We have to face the fact, as has been said in the White Paper, that we live in a world where the United Nations is not yet able to control the situation and where we have to be prepared to fight.
I will not go into the question of broken pledges to our friends and allies overseas, because that has already been covered, except to point to one or two little details. I was in Singapore and Malaya only about two months ago, and I did not hear a single word from any local man to the effect that they wanted us to leave. On the contrary, they implored us to stay. I believe that was the situation until only a few days ago. Similarly in the Persian Gulf, there is no question of anybody asking us to leave; they want us to stay. If you visit the Sultan of Muscat, as I did, you will find that he puts it in much more tactical terms. He said that if the British leave Aden the hostile forces, or the unfriendly forces at least, will be 130 miles from his frontier and 120 miles from his palace. Although the Sultan has his own defence force it is not a particularly modern one. So there are two areas where we are being asked by the local people to stay—in South-East Asia and the Persian Gulf, not to mention our two old Commonwealth partners, Australia and New Zealand.
I would emphasise a point that was made by the New Zealand Prime Minister; it is the difference between totally withdrawing and leaving a small garrison, because to withdraw totally is a complete act. The whole of this question of withdrawal from the East is one not of principle but of timing. I do not think anyone would argue that we should stay there for ever. It has been established in debates in your Lordships' House and in another place that we cannot stay for ever and that one day we shall go.
I would observe, in passing, that the chief troubles in South East Asia have been the legacy of Imperial Powers, through the French and the Dutch withdrawing without due planning. I must agree that we are not doing that, but I believe that instead of announcing dates for withdrawal, which is a habit now, we ought to withdraw by plan. The plan

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ought to be contingent on events. I suggest that there ought to be in these areas withdrawal by two stages, governed by two stages of events. The first is when local Governments are unable to compete with local threats or perhaps even with internal affairs, although we should be careful not to take part in internal affairs; and the second is when we have practically withdrawn and have only small forces left, when we are in a position as the Government describe, where we could go back at any time with strong forces; although exactly how and by what route seems to be a little uncertain. I suggest that that should be the formula.
I agree entirely with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, about the validity of small garrisons. I do not agree with what has been said about the risk of their presence leading to an escalation into very serious warfare. On the contrary, as I have said in previous debates, very often a situation has been quietened and calmed down without a shot having been fired. I recall one instance when there were very serious threats of riots in Bahrein during the Suez crisis, where one rather weak infantry company quelled incipient riots without firing a shot. That has happened many times in other places, but such events are not always publicised.
I will not go into the validity of a small garrison except to say, as I have said before, that a company to-day is worth a battalion next week and a brigade in a fortnight's time. But it is extremely difficult to fly in a brigade without the tanks and the ammunition on the ground and without a fairly large place to receive it, whereas we could defend our friends and help them very often by the presence of a small, inoffensive force.
I now come to the choice. If we accept that there are to be heavy cuts—and I am one of those who do accept this, reluctantly—where I quarrel with the present package plan is not in the size or the ultimate effect so much as the direction of it. We are, in fact, forced to choose between Europe and the East, and the question of timing comes in. It has been said many times before that Europe is quiet at present and not only is the threat absent but it does not look like recurring. The noble and gallant Viscount, Field Marshal Montgomery, said
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only two years ago in this House that B.A.O.R. was doing nothing. That might be a slight exaggeration. I think that what he meant was that it was not firing shots in anger—whereas the British defence forces have been firing shots in anger for well over twenty years in the East, and he would be a bold man who would say that that is not going to continue if we stay there. The enormous headquarters in the Far East have been referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Thorneycroft and Lord Thurlow. I entirely agree with them. One has only to see the schools in Singapore to realise the size of the base there: it is colossal. We have four bases, and I think we ought to reduce to one; and I would recommend small forces.
One other feature I should have dealt with is that these defence cuts planned do not save many dollars. So far as I can see, the only dollars saved are in paying the full price for the F.111, though we have to pay a fairly heavy penalty. I understand that we save £400 million over ten years.
Two years ago in this House I recommended that B.A.O.R., with the supporting R.A.F. forces, should be cut by half. The noble and gallant Field Marshal did not disagree with that. His opinion was that the Rhine Army could well be reduced to a division. To my mind it is not a good allocation of British military effort to line up division after division on the European central front with other nations who are capable of providing ground manpower. I believe that the proper way to support NATO is on the sea and in the air, and recently the Secretary for Defence admitted publicly that this was an arguable case. There is a great deal to be said for strengthening these arms in the Atlantic.
I must agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, said about the strength of Rhine Army. When we send a unit, it is reduced to small proportions. There are companies of thirty and forty men. I would reduce Rhine Army by a half—and I mean a half; I do not mean just three brigades, but a reduction in group headquarters, in spare Army and Corp headquarters and in quite a lot of Air Force Administration. I think we should find that that would save £50 million a year in marks, which is a hard currency. Under my plan this amount would have

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been saved over two years. One speaker has said that merchant bankers were questioning the validity of our defences overseas. Of course one can always quote case against case. But when I rang up a businessman in the City who had been in Hong Kong for many years, he said, "I am absolutely sick. Have we forgotten our friends?" But that is by the way. My Lords, I have stated my plan. My formula would be to save marks by bringing the Rhine Army home from Europe and to save dollars by not ordering American aircraft in future.
6.24 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I find the noble Lord's speech interesting, but what we are discussing to-day is an Amendment of censure of the Government. The Amendment is in the same terms as that which was discussed in another place for two days and defeated, and I regret that the Opposition thought fit to put down this Amendment in this House. It seems to me that they are not doing themselves justice. If one looks at the terms of the Amendment, and the occasion of it, it is, to say the least of it, unfortunate.
A few days ago, on January l4, Mr. Harold Macmillan, whose services to the Tory Party I am sure noble Lords opposite fully recognise (after all, he "saved their bacon" after Suez), described this House as a "mausoleum". I would not venture to use language of that kind. But when an ex-Tory Prime Minister uses it, I begin to think a little. What are we invited to do? We are invited to pass an Amendment of censure in precisely the terms which were debated and rejected by another place and to pass it in a "mausoleum". I doubt whether it does justice to whatever our role may be, but I think that it is not altogether an unfair description of the present procedure.
To turn to the Amendment, what it says is this. After the usual words of abuse, it ascribes the present situation to the Government's "mismanagement of the economy". I have rarely heard a more preposterous suggestion. Is it really suggested that the particular thing we are dealing with at the moment, the balance of trade, is due to the Government's mismanagement of the economy? I would remind your Lordships that when
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the Tory Government went out in 1964, they left a combined figure of capital and current debts amounting to £776 million. This had to be met. These were debts due to the world at large incurred by them, and it was this total which shocked the then Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer in November of that year.
What has happened to this debt? In 1965, it had been reduced to £342 million in 1966, to £175 million; and from the figures for the first three quarters of last year, which are all that have yet been published, it looks as if the figure has been further reduced. What has happened is perfectly clear. We tried to reduce the unconscionable burden of debt left over by the Tory Administration. We have been successful in doing it. We had a good hope that we might be able to do it without devaluation, but in that we have not been successful. Nobody likes this painful result. The Labour Party do not like it.
I am not certain that the Party opposite have chosen the right part to attack. They go on to say in their Amendment that
"the Statement is purely negative in character".
It is not purely negative in character, if you look at it; but it would not be very surprising if it were when its object is to cut public expenditure—of course, it is negative in that sense.
Then the Amendment comes to the real "meat" of the matter: it
"deplores cuts in defence which involve breaking faith with friends and allies and will severely undermine our national security."
This bit of humbug comes from the Party which was responsible for Suez. Suez was the end of "gunboat diplomacy" in the world and it was promoted by the Tory Party opposite. I am not going into the subsequent disclosure of the doubtful proceedings about Suez, but will merely say that it was undertaken in breach of our obvious obligations under the United Nations Charter. Apparently it does not shock the Party opposite to break the United Nations Charter, but it shocks them profoundly, as my noble friend Lord Annan, with whose speech I found myself in complete agreement, pointed out, if there has been alleged breach of faith as regards time—not the fact of our departure from the Gulf and

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the other places which have been mentioned.
How can one really tell? I was not under the table when Mr. George Thomson went out and talked with these people, and I do not know what was said. It is perfectly obvious that a great deal depends on what was said, and on the impression that was formed not only by Mr. Thomson, but by those with whom he was talking. It seems to me to be completely unfounded to say that there has been any breach of faith of a reprehensible character here such as there was over Suez. That is as I see it. I have listened to these attacks time after time. I do not feel bound to go quite so far as the noble Lord, Lord Annan, did and say that they are absolutely inevitable, because I do not know what they were; and I do not see how one can know what they were. The result has been a lot of rather violent abuse of the Government, but not a word to back it up or to make it clear that there was anything of a serious national character.
At the end of the day, I say this—and it has been said before from these Benches. If the Government of the day find that they cannot discharge their duties at home as the Government of this country and at the same time maintain fully certain obligations abroad, then it stands to common sense that one or other has to go. I note with some amazement that noble Lords opposite think that the right things to do, in those circumstances, is to preserve the obligations abroad at all costs and to break faith with the people of this country. I cannot concur in that.
I want to call the attention of your Lordships to one more thing, and that is the functions of this House in a matter of this kind. I had hoped that we were not going to have the usual Party wrangle. I say at once that we have not had it from everybody, and a notable instance was the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, who made a maiden speech that was as impartial in its form as it was honest in its substance. It struck me as an absolutely honest speech, and in the circumstances I think that was rather fine. I am prepared to accept what he said: that Mr. Harold Macmillan rather liked being on the verge of bankruptcy. But there are other things than that.
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I think one has to realise that the background of this is not merely Suez: it is even older than that. At the turn of the century we in this country had a third share of the world's exports. By 1950 we had one quarter. When the Tory Government came in for the period from 1951 to 1964 the proportion continued to fall steadily, from 22 per cent. to 14 per cent. and there has been another rather smaller fall in the last year or two. In fact what it comes to is this: that during the whole of the 20th century we have been losing our share of the world's trade, and particularly of exports. That, of course, is the long-standing reason for the difficulties that we are in now.
I should have thought that a Chamber like this, which, after all, contains a wealth of experience and quite a lot of judgment, would be competent to face up to that sort of problem and, instead of making a Party wrangle of it, would consider the position of the country and suggest what in their opinion should be done. This is not the sort of contribution that I heard from the noble Lord who preceded me.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, may I intervene? Am I to understand that the noble Lord thinks that any criticism of the Government, or any suggestion that they are in any way to blame for our present situation, is indulging in Party politics? If so, would he say that they are entirely free from blame in hanging on East of Suez for three years? Has that nothing to do with their getting into their present mess?
LORD MITCHISON: I am afraid dial I do not follow this supposed argument. The point I am making is that by moving a Vote of Censure on the Government in terms which an elected Chamber has already rejected, after full discussion, the Party Opposite are making not only a tactical mistake, but a sad misjudgment of what this Chamber can do. I do not see what that has to do with what I understood the noble Lord to be suggesting. But perhaps, if he wishes, he will tell me some time later.
LORD GLADWYN: I asked the noble Lord if he thought the Government were absolutely free from blame in any way.
LORD MITCHISON: I am afraid I did not catch what the noble Lord said.

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It is going to be rather difficult. Is this a serious objection or not; or is it an attempt to score a tactical point? I think the Liberals did very well over this. They succeeded in disagreeing with everybody. They disagreed with the Conservatives on the Amendment, and they disagreed with the Labour Party on the original Motion. I hope that they will be content with this. It was a very fine effort.
If I may go on for a moment or two more—and I shall not be more than a moment or two over this—I should have liked us to face up to the question that the gradual fall in British trade indicates something which itself can be paralleled by other figures of the same kind. The fact is that we are slipping back in the world, and have been for some time past. We are still a wealthy country: we are still a very fine country: and in some fields, as my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe so clearly pointed out in her maiden speech yesterday, we lead the world. It was in looking at the very matter that she was mentioning, the immunological discoveries in medicine lately and the trend of scientific venture, that I thought we had a lead that we might keep in mind when considering the broad political problem that I should have liked to see considered to-day.
There was an article in the New Scientist of January 18, on page 121—and though I happen to know the author, it is not for that reason that I quote it. He was criticising a statement that had appeared in the Press about the operation by way of transplanting hearts, and he said:
"Fundamental research is never going to finish. To write that displays a total misconception of the nature of scientific progress."
I think it also betrays a total misconception of the nature of political progress. I think it is essential that we should realise that the kind of task we have to deal with in a changing world is one which does not end, but continues. Then, later in the same article, the author wrote:
"This state of affairs suggests another popular notion, also in my opinion totally mistaken; that is, that things are getting so complicated that soon nobody will be able to understand any branch of science properly and we shall have to depend on computers."
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There is much the same conception nowadays about politics. I like the conclusion in the article, which was:
"The beauty of science is that the more we learn the, more we understand."
That is the main thing that I think it is our duty to try to get over from here, as well as from the other Chamber. It is the duty of Parliament as a whole to try to make people understand that politics is not an impossible thing to understand; that we have to govern ourselves if we do not want other people to come and do so, and in order to do it we must try to dig deep and think as simply as we may.
I have listened to-day to a great deal of technical comment, rather off a Vote of Censure I should have thought, but aptly made. I believe that we could adapt the functions and procedure of this House to have that sort of comment made and considered calmly, without noble Lords opposite feeling bound to curse the Government up hill and down dale for things for which they themselves and their Party are just as much, if not more, responsible, and could treat the whole matter which has now become a national responsibility as something to be faced and understood by the nation, and not to be the subject of the kind of thing that appeared on the Order Paper in the name of the Conservative Party.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I help him over the 1967 trade figures? I think he said that he did not know the trade figures for last year. I can tell him the figures. Our imports exceeded our exports by £1,161 million. The trade deficit with the world, taking into consideration the earnings from invisible exports like insurance, was £565 million. I thought perhaps I would give the noble Lord that information, as I understood him to say that he did not know the figures.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, that is very interesting, but they are the wrong figures. The figures I was giving were the figures of the balance of capital and currency at the end of the year, and it would be very surprising if those figures were made fully available yet. Only the first three-quarters are available. May I reciprocate? The noble Lord has made one of the few constructive suggestions

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in the course of this debate. He at any rate suggested an alternative to the troubles we have to face. He said that the verges of the roads in this country ought to be mown more rarely, about half as frequently as they often are. May I suggest to him that, though notionally he disagrees with it, he might find a tethered municipal cow very useful, or on trunk roads a similar tethered national cow—one of "Barbara's beasties", in fact.
6.43 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, considers that a political wrangle is simpler to hold than a scientific wrangle, but he very nearly had a trade wrangle at the same time with my noble friend. But I do know that when the noble Lord made his speech he knew that he would have a wrangle. He has already had one with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. But I beg to have only a very small wrangle with him now. He mentioned the wording of my noble friend's Amendment. If the measures which the Government have taken since they have been in power, and the ones which they are about to take—for instance, the measures under the Road Transport Bill, the selective employment tax, steel nationalisation, the Land Commission, the present capital gains tax position—are not mismanagement of our economy, I do not know what is. Again, every one of the measures which are the subject of our debate, as I understand it, is a cut. If that is not a negative measure, I do not know what is, and I see nothing that is positive in these suggestions. Great statesmen—
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, will the noble Earl allow me to intervene. The removal of the selective employment tax cannot possibly assist in this matter. If the noble Earl will consider that this is public expenditure, and that there is a similar question awaiting us later about private expenditure, he will see that the removal of the selective employment tax, whatever its merits on other grounds, certainly could not help over this.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I do not know whether it would assist or not. All I know is that we have to pay. It means very little taxation income to the country, and, as I see it, as do the experts
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who know these things, I would classify it as gross mismanagement.
Great statesmen and administratons, with retired noble and gallant Service Chiefs and businessmen, have spoken in your Lordships' House in this debate. Very nearly all, I think, have been honoured to come to your Lordship' House in recognition of duties that they themselves have carried out in the service of the country. I speak before your Lordships solely as an hereditary Peer, and I have had the honour of serving as a very junior Minister in your Lordships' House. My family have served the Crown since the times of the Civil Wars, with their lives and with their limbs. In 1771 my ancestor, the second Earl, was the Lord Chancellor sitting upon the Woolsack. The third Earl Bathurst was Secretary of State for War and the Colonies from 1812 to 1827, and was a partner with the illustrious ancestor of the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, in the victories against the international enemy of the day, Napoleon's France, from Portugal to the very end at Waterloo. Together, the third Earl and that noble Duke laid the foundations of the modern British Commonwealth, as it was.
I have noted that there are 17 townships and places throughout the world which bear my name. I also noted that there are 39 places which bear the name of the noble and gallant Duke, the Duke of Wellington. There are 18 named after the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, who made that magnificent speech to us this afternoon. And, if your Lordships are interested, I also noted that there are 42 places called Wilson—most of them are "Wilson Bills" in the United States. Which Wilson the 43rd will be named after I leave to your Lordships' conjecture. But these places that bear my name were founded for strategy and the maintenance of our trade routes at the time. One hundred and fifty years later, to-day, they still exist and are in the Free World. Men and women from those places assisted this country with their blood in maintaining that freedom And yet to-day I believe firmly there is still an international enemy, and that enemy must be recognised wherever it may be, as international Communism My noble friend Lord Swinton has mentioned the factors of security. They are

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every bit as vital to this country and the Free World to-day as they were 150 years ago.
Three times, my Lords, a Socialist Government have been elected by this country. Three times Socialist policy, Socialist ineptitude and Socialist ill-judgment, have brought about financial chaos in the land. There are noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, as there are right honourable Members in another place, who believe that we are near to ruin. I do not know. The people of this country did not vote to have that chaos. The only solution which the Socialist Government apparently have to solve this problem, entirely of their own making, is the economy measures which are the subject of this debate. My noble friend Lord Jellicoe says they are negative; the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, apparently thinks they are positive.
My Lords, I am ready to "back Britain"; millions of men and women throughout the country will back Britain. But I can see no help forthcoming from the pressures which the noble Lords opposite are putting forward with their Socialist Government. I seen only frustrations to our everyday life. I see one result only: that is, that for the sake of a doubtful £700 million economy at some time in the future—is it two years?—this country will cease to be reckoned as a great World Power by our friends and foes alike.
It is too late to argue with the noble Lord, Lord Annan: I prefer to take the views of my noble and gallant friend Lord Thurlow, and I have no doubt that there are many ways and means in which this defence problem can be worked out. The facts will be these. By the time these cuts have come into operation there will be no supersonic air force. The great regiments, many referred to by the noble Duke, will have been cut to the hone, and even disbanded, as many have been already. The naval bases will be shut up and indefensible, and we shall have no reserves. In passing, may I on this remind your Lordships' House of the ardent and faithful service which has been carried on throughout this country ever since 1939 by the Civil Defence Corps, the Auxiliary Fire Service and all the other auxiliary services? They would
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be needed not only in the case of a thermo-nuclear attack, but also in the event of a train disaster, or such other disasters as can happen. I would merely throw out to your Lordships my belief that one day we should debate whether or not we can cash in on this great voluntary spirit and produce out of the morgue that has happened as a result of these cuts, some great emergency service, available alike in war and peace. That is not the purpose of my speech to your Lordships this evening, but I wanted to give credit to those people in the Civil Defence.
Shorn of our power, what help can we be to our friends if they need us? These cuts cannot stand up to the principles of good government. How do they help the maintenance of our institutions? I do not think even Lord Mitchison could agree that they do. They cannot help to defend our country and our friends to the best of our ability, and they cannot possibly raise the standard of living of the people. I now think of those people in those Bathursts throughout the world: Gambia, with 20,000 people in the capital of that newly independent State: South Africa; Australia; Canada. All these are in the dangerous places of the world. Mauritius needs our help to-day. The Socialist Prime Minister from Singapore says that he needs our help to-day. Who can tell who is going to need our help to-morrow? My Lords, it may not be for long that hereditary Peers will have the honour of taking part in your Lordships' great debates. I can only say, thinking of those people in the Bathursts scattered throughout the world, thinking of those principles of good government which I have mentioned and quoted, that I think they are particularly apt, in view of my noble friend's Amendment. I beg to support the Amendment, and I intend to vote with my noble friend.
6.55 p.m.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, if I had to start raking up some of my progenitors, I should have to draw attention to one or two queer folk, and one of them a very well known figure in the Chartist world some 140 years ago. I suppose that is why I sit on this side of the House, and why the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, sits on the other. We admire sincerity, whoever brings it to the front. While, as a Yorkshireman, I ground my teeth when the Duke of Norfolk was sent with the

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cricket team to Australia, this afternoon I have doffed my cap to him metaphorically dozens of times. I rarely have heard a more sincere exposition of a man's mind in simple terms than from the Duke of Norfolk. We are with him on it, because we cannot afford in any circumstances to kick in the teeth sincere, voluntary effort, wherever it is.
The sincere thing I want to say this evening—and I am going to be brief because I have a wager with Lord Beswick that I am down in less than ten minutes—is this. During the strike a mill near my place had materials consigned to it which lay for four weeks outside the bar at Liverpool. There were 350 employees in jeopardy of their employment, and it was through no fault of their own. What happened? A boat was sent in the slight hope that the raw materials might be unloaded on a good tide at Londonderry. It missed it and went to Brest, where it had to be unloaded on the quayside, and it was put on the railway to Le Havre. A little boat brought it from Le Havre to Runcorn. As the commodities were being unloaded at Runcorn a cable was received from the sellers saying that it had not to be unloaded unless 10 per cent. of the original purchase price was paid. Anybody is as dull as ditchwater if he cannot relate that kind of incident to his own particular way of living or his livelihood. What I am saying is this, by inference, saving time: we cannot afford a repetition of what we had in the docks before devaluation, because if we have a repetition of that we shall have a second "dose" and it will be the last. That is what the Government must be thinking about. It is no use letting these things grow up and surprise them. Somebody made a very amusing quotation this afternoon with regard to that.
My second point is that we have heard over the years now, until we are sick and weary of the nostrums and the arguments, about balance of payments. Do your Lordships know that if you analyse those arguments, apart from the academics—some good, some poor—a lot of economists have to say what they do because the tune is called by those who employ them, which means argument about the criteria? I say that the criteria for the balance of payments have never been accurately stated or diagnosed. Let
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noble Lords cast their memories back just a week or two. A reference was made in this House to the Report on Invisible Earnings. Do noble Lords remember it? Magnificient! Did that not catch everybody by surprise? Of course it did. Was not everybody amazed when they saw the figures in terms of the shift of importance of aid and overseas investment? Was it not an amazing thing to see that if we had no more overseas commitments than we had in 1938 we should not be in debt at all? That would be extremely valuable.
Why do the political Parties not get together on this matter and decide to commission a similar study, or perhaps a more comprehensive one, to that given to Sir Thomas Brand's Committee when they set about the invisible earnings study? If the young man, William Clark, was employed in the same position as director, I am perfectly certain that out of such an examination of the balance-of-payments criteria, good would come.
We are definitely committed to certain rules in the prosperity club, of which we are members throughout the world. We can no longer venture or stray into extravagance, either internally or externally, without being called to book at some point. During this past week the O.E.C.D. has even been studying the question of calling the Americans to book. It does not matter who strays outside the rules of this prosperity club, they will have their knuckles rapped. It will not be much more than five years—ten at most—before the Russians are members of the prosperity club, because the possibility of membership begins when the per capita income is round about £300 equivalent in sterling. I am not saying whether that figure was before devaluation or after. The profit motive that the Russians have gone on to in the last four years is a result of the fact that they are just about getting to the point of being members of the prosperity club.
I should like to go on and develop the question of aid, but I shall lose my wager if I do not shut up. I hope my suggestion will be given consideration and that a study will be made. It need not take long, but there is no question about it—it could be lifted out of politics, except to the extent where extravagance

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took place or where a principle was introduced on which the country could debate it. I want to say to the Government that they have been honest and straightforward on our Front Bench about the situation we are in. They have sat on the penitence stool and they have accepted responsibility. May I express the hope that they will carry on with this and really get down to some hard work, showing the country what they can really do in this matter, because they are capable of it?
There has been a lot of—ill-deserved—denigration of Harold Wilson during this last week or two, and I ask the Government not to stay too long on the stool of penitence but really to get on with the job and make a success of it, because I believe they can if they are not afraid of doing the unpopular thing, which they are not.
7.5 p.m.
LORD WADE: My Lords, we are nearing the end of a very long debate during which we have had seven excellent maiden speeches, from the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, the noble Lord, Lord Carron, my noble friend Lord Franks, the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn Davies, the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Grasmere, the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, and the noble Lord, Lord Granville of Eye. In the time that I have allotted myself I cannot possibly pay to those maiden speeches the adequate tribute which they certainly deserve. I can only say that they helped to make a memorable debate, and one which has been carried on at a high level. I calculate that by the end of the debate there will have been 50 speakers, and I sympathise with the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in having to reply to such a wide-ranging debate.
Before offering one or two comments I hope I shall be forgiven if I make one digression. This debate is taking place a week after the debate in the Commons and after the vital vote in the Commons has been taken. I hope the debate here will not be regarded as coming too late for the Government to reconsider any of their decisions. For example, I hope careful attention will be paid to the speech of the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk. It was a most impressive speech. I hope that
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the advice and warning of many of your Lordships during this debate will percolate through to the Government, but I think this debate has indicated the need for some reform of our Parliamentary procedures.
In addition to these marathon debates, I should like to see some way of drawing upon the undoubted talent that exists in this House. Perhaps once the composition and powers have been reformed there may be closer collaboration between this House and another place. I should like to see specialist Committees set up on such things as defence, foreign affairs and economic affairs, and served by Members of both Houses. I think we might well follow the procedure of the Select Committee on Estimates, in order that there might be a real study in depth—for example, into the role of defence for Britain in the nuclear age, or how best to curb consumer spending at a time such as the present, or how best to apply the principle of selectivity in the social services with the minimum of embarrassment to those who have to undergo a means test.
To take one more example, we might study the distinction between productive and unproductive public expenditure—and there certainly is an important distinction. I should regard the subsidising of the rents of those who can afford to pay the full economic rent as unproductive public expenditure. On the other hand, I regard the expenditure on education as productive—it certainly should be—and I believe that cuts in education are cuts we can ill afford to make.
Many of your Lordships have referred to the moving speech made by the noble Earl, Lord Longford, and I would certainly echo what has been said. My own brief comment on this subject of the raising of the school-leaving age is this. If the Government had said, "We are desperately short of teachers; we have not enough buildings; we must have a little more time to tackle the problem and to prevent overcrowding in teacher training colleges", at any rate it would have been a debatable point. That is not what they have said, and what I fear is that after this delay of two years we shall still be short of buildings and we shall still be short of teachers. But, of course, this is just one more example of going back upon a firm assurance, and I think that has been

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one of the themes of this debate. I think we have to face the fact that this going back on assurances tends to undermine respect not only for the Government but for our Parliamentary system. In opening the debate yesterday, the Leader of the House referred to excessive despondency. I would prefer to call it bewilderment. I think it is due in part to the sudden reversals of policy and going back upon assurances.
But, of course, this is not new. When the Conservatives were in office from 1951 to 1964—and I was in another place during the whole of that period—I sometimes used to gasp with astonishment at the political somersaults, and I used to be amazed sometimes to hear Ministers pursuing policies which a few years before they had denounced. My Conservative friends, in private but not in public, used to say, "This is just an example of the advantages of the pragmatic approach to politics". I was not entirely convinced. When the change of Government took place and the present Prime Minister appeared on television, he referred to the advantages of pragmatism, and I thought that was a little ominous.
The trouble with the pragmatic or empirical approach is that so often it can become a euphemism for having no clear guiding principle but living from day to day without a definite goal. And so it has appeared to many people in the country. It has appeared not so much a ship being temporarily blown off course; it has rather looked like the course itself being determined by the winds rather than the master of the ship. In other words, policy has seemed to be determined by events, events which very often the Government seem quite unable to control. That, I think, is the main burden of the criticism in this debate. And I think it is this that has contributed to the disillusionment, and this disillusionment will make it infinitely more difficult to restore the confidence abroad and at home which is vitally necessary if we are to get over our present financial troubles.
If I may refer again to the Leader of the House, he called for constructive criticism, and I think it is fair to say that nearly every speaker has offered at least one constructive point during this debate. I will try to make one point myself on the rather more dark and dull
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subject of home economics. It would be foolish in winding up for my Liberal colleagues to attempt to cover all the ground. My noble friend Lord Gladwyn has dealt adequately with our views on defence. I would repeat one question which was not answered by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. My noble friend asked: Why not organise communications the other way round the world; namely, westabout? I do not think that point was answered, but possibly the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack may reply to it.
My noble friend Lord Amulree has dealt with housing and health. I should like to take up one point made by my noble friend Lord Franks in an extremely interesting maiden speech. He said that the crux of the whole affair is the switch from personal consumption to exports. Of course, that is true. There is no doubt that there has been a spending spree since devaluation. That should have been anticipated and, I think, provided for. There is a very simple reason for this; that is, that many people expect prices to rise and have taken the opportunity of baying before that happens. It has not, I believe, come wholly out of spare income. Some part has come out of savings, and we now have the reverse of that process. Here, I think, a distinction should be made between personal earnings and personal spending, because it is the spending that is the serious matter at the present time.
I think it is clear that there will be, and will have to be, a Budget surplus. In fact, we have been warned about a probable increase in taxation. But I do not myself think that the only solution lies in compulsory saving by massive taxation. There are other possibilities, and this is what I call my practical suggestion. I suggest, if unfortunately there has to be compulsion, that all wage and salary increases not fully justified by productivity bargains should be set aside and invested, preferably in a wide range of unit trusts to spread the risks. Withdrawals would not be permitted for, say, a couple of years, and tax would not be payable on the increased earnings until the money was withdrawn and spent. This scheme has been worked out in some detail. I myself took part in writing a little booklet about it.

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This idea now has the support of a very distinguished person; namely, Mr. Aubrey Jones, and I should like to quote very briefly from an article by him in the Sunday Times of Sunday, January 21. I will not take up time quoting more than a few sentences, but in an article headed, "What next for the consumer?" he said:
"If both the wage-earner and the dividend recipient are asked to forgo increases, the wage-earner forgoes his permanently, whereas the dividend recipient, while forgoing an increase in dividends, can at the end of the day enjoy an increase in the capital value of his investment because of ploughed-back profits. Should we not endeavour to put the wage-earner and dividend recipient on a par?"
Then he goes on to explain in detail, and he says:
"The savings could be invested in categories of investment laid down by law and in ways which ensured that they could grow roughly with the growth in the gross national investment."
The paragraph concludes with this sentence:
"In this way the discrepancy between wage-earner and dividend recipient could be in part removed."
I know that this is a new departure. Let me say it is very different from the rather discredited post-war credits, which was a form of compulsory loan to the Government. I am aware that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack cannot anticipate the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget, but I hope at any rate we may hear that serious consideration will be given to ideas of this sort. I am absolutely certain that we must be prepared to think of new ideas in the situation to-day.
Finally, I come to the question of the vote. I do not regard a vote in this House as quite so important as a vote in the Commons, partly because we know that in any case the Conservatives can carry the day if they so wish. But I will explain our own views on the Liberal Benches. We are in entire agreement with our colleagues in another place where there was a similar Amendment, I understand, tabled by the Official Opposition. We could not possibly vote for the Conservative Amendment, which gives the impression that their only real concern is maintaining expenditure on defence East of Suez. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, has already agreed that there
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is a fundamental difference of view between the Liberals and those on the Conservative Benches on this matter. Therefore, there is only one possible course: we shall vote against the Conservative Amendment. I hope that from my remarks it will be abundantly clear that that does not imply a vote of confidence in the Government. To return to my opening words, although this debate is taking place a week after that in the Commons, I hope what has been said will be heeded by the Government. Having studied the cuts, I am quite certain that there are more battles ahead.
7.20 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I only hope that, when the time comes, the Liberals will remember what to do. As I was unavoidably prevented from being in the House on Monday I did not have the opportunity of welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his new position as Leader of the House. In spite of the fact that he spent a number of years in another place, there will be no one in the House who does not feel that the noble Lord is truly a "House of Lords man"; and I know that he will lead your Lordships' House with distinction and will be careful of the rights and privileges of all Peers, of whatever Party. So far as I am concerned, I certainly give him the undertaking that we will cooperate with him, as we have done with his predecessor, in the smooth running of the House.
Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say one word about the noble Earl, Lord Longford, who for three years has been Leader of this House. As a matter of fact, he and I came to the House at almost exactly the same time. The only difference was that he came by merit and I came by accident. All of us will greatly miss his presence on the Front Bench opposite, and not least the wit and the humanity with which he conducted the affairs of the Government. I think, too, that the Government will miss his integrity and his compassion for the underdog.
Happily, the noble Earl has removed himself only a few feet from where he used to sit, and we shall look forward to hearing him in the future as in the past, though it may be that we shall expect his speeches to contain rather less of the blandishments which he so cunningly used

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to distract our attention from the matter in hand. As Leader of the Opposition I always found it a pleasure to do business with the noble Earl, because I counted him, and count him, as a firm friend, and one from whom I have had so many personal kindnesses.
My Lords, we are at the end of a two-day debate in which there have been a number of outstanding speeches. Those of us who remember our children's books will remember that there were seven maids with seven mops, and that there were Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. In these last two days we had had seven "maidens", and all I can say is that they have acquitted themselves as well as did the seven wise virgins. I do not wish to single out any particular speeches that have been made over these last two days—there have been so many good ones—but perhaps your Lordships will just allow me to mention two of them, one by my noble friend Lord Belstead, which I greatly regret so few of your Lordships were able to hear last night, and the other by the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, whose speech reflected the lifetime of service he has given to the Territorial Army.
It falls to me now to wind up on behalf of the Opposition. My noble friend Lord Jellicoe, in his speech yesterday, made it perfectly plain why we found it necessary to move the Amendment, and so many of your Lordships have discussed the cuts in expenditure, and the Government's economic policy, that it is unnecessary for me to make a long speech or to cover the whole range of economic policy. Nevertheless, there are a number of things that I want to say. My noble friend Lord Jellicoe said yesterday that "we are all in this mess together". Well, so we are; and, regardless of Party, we want to get out of it. All of us, wherever we sit in the House, are primarily interested in Britain and the British people, and not in Party advantage. But this does not release us from our duty to say what we think.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his speech yesterday (I paraphrase it: I hope not unfairly), said, "I am sorry; the Government have made a terrible mess. We admit it. But do not let us talk about that. What we are going to do now is what matters." My Lords, it is not really quite so easy as that. In my
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view, it is not "playing Party politics" to criticise the Government for what they have done and are proposing to do: this is what the Opposition is for. By our criticism we seek to do two things. The first, in the national interest, is to convince the Government of the error of their ways. Sometimes we succeed:—for example, we have convinced them, apparently, that there is something to be said for selectivity in the social services. But we also criticise, not, I hope, unfairly, or by bringing in personalities, in order to convince our fellow countrymen and women that we on this side have the clearer vision and are more capable of forming a successful Administration than those opposite.
I do not expect that noble Lords opposite will share that view. But it is one that I happen to hold most strongly, and it means that I do not want to be, and cannot be, as detached as some of your Lordships on the Cross-Benches feel they are able to be, or as, indeed, one of my ex-colleagues felt that he was able to be. That is not my inclination, and it is not my job, for I believe that we as a Party can do better, and we should be given the chance. Therefore, what I say will not be particularly welcome to noble Lords opposite.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene—I appreciate the noble Lord's giving way. He said that he paraphrased my speech. I did make it clear, and said, that of course the Opposition Parties have a duty to criticise the Government. I went on—and I hope I put it in fair perspective—to make a request for alternative suggestions, of which we have had some.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, knows that I do not in the least want to misrepresent what he said, and I have no doubt that, as a result of what he said, he will agree 100 per cent. with what I have just said. So there is nothing between us.
There is, first of all, the question of timing: the timing of the Statement we are discussing, and the timing of the Budget and the budgetary measures which the Chancellor tells us are to follow. It has become increasingly clear—though I think all of us must have long realised it—that devaluation was not a carefully

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prepared act undertaken by the Government, with all their plans laid and with the necessary follow-up action ready to be taken. We have been told (and I am sure this is right) that if devaluation is to be successful we have only a comparatively short time in which to make it so. It is also true that, coupled with the actual economic significance of devaluation, there is the factor of confidence in the pound and confidence in this country, which is in itself, and in its own way, quite as important, if not more so.
It would therefore seem desirable, for both these reasons, economic and practical, together with the question of confidence, that after devaluation was announced measures to make it successful and to restore that confidence should have been announced at once. But this did not happen. Nothing happened after the announcement of devaluation, except what amounted almost to a public debate, illustrating the tensions and disputes and disagreements within the Cabinet. Day by day we read in our papers the latest instalment of who was not, or who was, going to resign; what the effect was likely to be on the Left Wing of the Labour Party, or on the Right Wing, if such-and-such a cut was made; how this would be received all over the world, and the impossibility of doing more or less in the way of cuts.
Certainly, the impression given to me was that of a Government who were unable to make up their mind, incapable, because of the dissension among their own followers, of giving a lead, and far removed from what the Prime Minister used to refer to as "the smack of firm government." I cannot believe that the public exposure of the frailties of the Labour Party and the Labour Cabinet can have added to the confidence—or perhaps one should say, the lack of confidence—with which this country and this Government are, alas! regarded abroad.
However, we now have an announcement of the Government's measures to curtail public expenditure. I shall have more to say on this in a moment. At the same time as these decisions were announced, and in the certain knowledge of all of us that private spending, as well as public spending, would have to be cut in some measure, we were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he
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was going to do nothing until his Budget in the middle of March, because he wanted to see the way in which things were going. I must say that I regard that statement almost as an incitement to the public to spend while they may, to stock up before there is a clampdown. I was astonished to hear the noble Lord, Lord Beswick in his speech this afternoon tell us that this was precisely the object of the Government; that they wanted a "spending spree." I. hope that I have not misunderstood him, but he seemed to tell us that this was precisely what was intended by the Government.
LORD BESWICK: Then the noble Lord should read in to-morrow's Hansard what I said. I said nothing of the kind. I said that a "spending spree", if such there be—and the noble Lord has no figures on which to base that—will not affect the problem at present because there is spare capacity.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, we shall see what the noble Lord said. I do not wish at ail to misrepresent him, but he went very nearly as far as I went. As I say, we shall see to-morrow. But certainly I cannot believe that, whatever difficulties may have faced the Chancellor—and I do not for one moment underrate them—I do not think he was wise not to combine in one Statement on one day the measures he believes it right to take in both the public and the private sector. I think that there is a real danger of a "spending spree" which will make the Chancellor's task more difficult and may, alas!, make our punishment more severe.
I think that there was equally a psychological mistake. In the speeches which I have made to your Lordships on the economic situation in the past three years. I have said on a number of occasions that no Government had yet managed to bring home to the people of this country the gravity of our economic situation, since, although we seem perpetually to have headlines about "Crisis", the standard of living, in spite of these difficulties, rose continuously. Most people no longer believed that talks of "Crisis" were any more connected with themselves than landing a man on the moon. But I think that now, for the first time, at any rate for the first time for a great many years, the people of this country really are aware of the seriousness of

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our situation. They have been shocked into awareness by devaluation and by an awareness of the consequences which they all know are going to follow. I think that the five secretaries in Surbiton are good evidence of this. I believe that there is a feeling in this country that things are bad and that we must all get down to putting them right—a feeling which at the moment is unfocused. People are not sure how, and in what way, they can help.
The build-up to the Statement last week was such that almost everybody in the country expected grave measures to be announced which would affect them personally—not only cuts in Government expenditure, but also changes in taxation which would affect them very deeply. And they were prepared to accept these necessary sacrifices, provided that they were given a clear and definite lead; a lead from the Government as to why it was necessary, what they must do to ensure that we overcome these present difficulties and make it unnecessary for this ever to happen again. No such statement has come from the Government, and inevitably there is a feeling of anti-climax. This does not seem to me to be a sensible or an imaginative way of dealing with human beings who are longing for a lead and anxious to help. Here I agree very much with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Franks, yesterday about the need for the Government to have a clear and coherent theme and policy which will be backed and supported by the people of this country. I fear that the Government have missed a great opportunity and have at the same time made their economic task that much more difficult.
I do not intend to talk in any detail about the cuts at home. Some of them I accept; others fill me with doubt—for example, the postponement of the raising of the school-leaving age, and the investment grants which, as my noble friend Lord Jellicoe said, seem to me to be absolutely bogus. The defence cuts, so far from helping our position in the next year, make it worse but there are certain good things to be said about them as a whole, and I think these things should be said. In the first place, the cuts are a recognition by the Government of a need to cut public expenditure. And that, coming from a Labour Government,
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is of the greatest importance—it is realistic. Secondly, they show that the Government, in the interests of the country, are prepared to sacrifice a number of things which they hold very dear. And this in itself is something to be commended. The fact that we on this side have been arguing for more selectivity in the social services—and I hope that the Government will go further than they have done so far—and for the reimposition of the charge on prescriptions does not make it any the more easy for the Labour Party to accept them. I acknowledge this, and I do not in any way wish to underestimate the lengths to which the Government have gone in the face of great difficulties.
I do not know whether the cuts in public expenditure are adequate. It is difficult to know by what yardstick they should be measured. I confess that on this point I have the most serious doubts. I think that my noble friend Lord Jellicoe was right when he said that the true saving will be under £200 million. If we look at estimates for the next few years it would appear that the cuts are relatively insignificant. Certainly the trends are disturbing. To a certain extent we shall have to suspend judgment until we know what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to do in the Budget, but no doubt a good many of us will watch very carefully to see whether or not the Government have decided that personal expenditure and personal incomes should be cut more drastically than Government expenditure.
My Lords, it is the cuts in defence which create the most misgivings among those of us who sit on this side of the House. They do so for three reasons. First, because of the effect they will have on the Armed Forces and their capability for intervention in the future; secondly, because of the effects which our withdrawal from East of Suez will have on the stability of the area and on our friends and our allies; and, thirdly, because of the effects which the abandonment of undertakings freely entered into will have on Britain's good name and her influence in the world.
I take first the effect on the Forces themselves. This is not the right moment to go into any detail, and I feel sure that we ought to have a debate on defence fairly soon in order to discuss these things

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in more detail. Nevertheless, I think that I should say something now. Have the Government, for example, made an assessment of the effect that these cuts will have on the recruiting and morale of the Services? I cannot think that, after so many changes of plan in the three years of this Government's life, it will be easy to persuade men of the type needed that any of the three Services will offer them a reasonable career so long as we have a Labour Government. It was already beginning to be apparent after the cuts of July that recruiting, particularly of officers, was on the down-turn. This trend will be accelerated and gives grave concern to all of us.
In regard to equipment, I am at a loss to understand how the Royal Air Force is to remain a force capable of competing on equal terms with other first-class air forces of the world. Time and again Mr. Healey has told us that the whole basis of Royal Air Force re-equipment was the Anglo-French swing-wing aircraft and the stop-gap F.111s. Both these have disappeared, and the Royal Air Force is left with no modern equipment in sight, other than the Jaguar. We shall have to press very hard to find out what are the plans for the re-equipment of the Royal Air Force, so that it may continue to play its role in those areas of the world in which the Government are still prepared to contribute to the cause of freedom.
As for the Royal Navy, I have never disguised my conviction of the folly of abandoning the Fleet Air Arm. I do not intend to repeat the arguments again, but as a result of this last decision the Royal Navy will now have no means of reconnaissance, no strike capability, and will very likely be incapable of playing a role outside Europe, without bases, without aircraft and without surface-to-surface missiles. We are also told that, in addition to the withdrawal from East of Suez, cuts will probably be made in the British Army of the Rhine, and that there is to be a slowing down of the naval building programme. We are instead to have a final Review, which comes only six months after the last "final Review", and the results of which will probably emerge just before the next "final Review" is announced. I have grave fears about the viability of the Forces and
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their capability of defending this country and its interests.
There are, of course, those who have always maintained, or maintained for a long time past, such as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that Britain should not have a military presence East of Suez. I do not happen to agree with this, but it is a perfectly legitimate argument. I do not agree with it for a number of reasons. The British forces in the Gulf and in Singapore and in Malaysia add stability, and in some cases create stability, in an area which is basically unstable. We have large British interests in those areas and there can be no doubt that the presence of British forces is a security for those British interests. We have friends and allies in that part of the world with whom we have freely entered into pacts and treaties. There is no question that both in the Persian Gulf and in South-East Asia we are still needed and wanted.
They believe—the people of that area—that our presence is a safeguard and a stabilising factor. The reaction of the Sheikhs is evidence of this, and I hope very much that the proposal that there should be some contribution to our expenditure in the Gulf by the Sheiks will not be dismissed quite so cavalierly as the Minister of Defence dismissed it. There is the mission of Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, who came to plead with the Labour Government not to leave Singapore undefended. There were the reactions of the Australians and the New Zealanders. This is plentiful evidence that nobody wants us to go. There are many arguments for withdrawing from a country in which we are not wanted, though sometimes even then it may be our duty to stay. But there can be few military reasons for withdrawing and letting down your friends in circumstances in which they wish you to stay.
It is very noticeable how much advice Labour Members of Parliament are prepared to give about Vietnam, about East-West relations, about Africa, about the United Nations and all the rest of it. But I say this to them: if you wish your advice to be heeded, then you must be prepared to contribute something to the stability of the world in the common front against aggression. Nobody is going to pay much attention to a country

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which has abdicated its responsibilities and is not willing to honour its commitments. From now on we have to expect that the Mr. Wilson who flies to Moscow and then on to Washington is a very different-sized figure on the world stage from the Mr. Wilson of three years ago. World politics is about power, and if you do not have the power it is no good pretending that you still count as much as you did or that you have as much influence. And with influence comes trade, and we should not minimise the effect on our visible and invisible trade of retrenchment on the scale envisaged.
For these reasons, and I put them very briefly, I believe that we should maintain our forces East of Suez—not, of course, for ever; I quite agree (and it is almost the only thing I did agree with in the noble Lord's speech) that all this is changing; the politics of power is changing. Sooner or later we may find that we are not needed or that we are not wanted, and we shall wish and find it desirable to withdraw, having made arrangements with our friends and allies. But not it seems now; not when the Vietnam war is still raging and when the whole stability of South-East Asia is in question.
Ironically enough, all these reasons that I have been giving have at one time or another—all of them—been advanced by the principal Ministers of the Government. We can all quote from the Prime Minister, from Mr. Brown and from Mr. Healey speeches in which they echo the arguments and sentiments which I have just expressed. I do not intend to quote them. They are sadly and pathetically within the recollection of all of us. It is perfectly legitimate to argue that a British presence East of Suez is not in Britain's interest, and, as I say, there are those who have done so. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Annan, has been quite consistent and has done it for years. But it is distasteful, to say the least of it, to find Ministers saying exactly the opposite of what they were saying a few short months ago, and trying to clothe what has been forced on them with the cloak of respectability of a strategic and Defence argument. I should feel much happier about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, if he had not, by remaining in the Government after the Defence White Paper of 1966, by his
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presence made it perfectly obvious that he agreed with what was then said.
But this does not really fool us. We all know that the real reason for most of these defence decisions is to make the "package" of Government cuts acceptable to the rank-and-file of the Labour Party. The cuts do not save any money next year; indeed, defence expenditure will rise as a result of the cancellation charges, though this is skilfully disguised in the White Paper. I do not know whit those cancellation charges will be, but I am sure they will make a large reduction in the already rather "phoney" figure of £300 million. In any event, they will be far too late to have any effect on the success or otherwise of devaluation. They are a poor and scarcely camouflaged sop to the Left Wing of the Labour Party. This became only too clear when I went to listen to the Prime Minister in another place, and the only time that he got a cheer—and it was a loud one—was when he announced these drastic defence cuts and the abandonment of our commitments and the breaking of our promises. I do not find it agreeable to listen to people cheering at Britain breaking her promises.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, what is the alternative saving? I think the noble Lord may have forgotten to tell us.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to go on. Well, I will deal with that if he likes. I hoped to finish this speech without that sort of interruption, but if the noble Lord wishes me to deal with it, it is this. If the devaluation is successful, as one hopes it will be, we shall hope that our gross national product will go up. That is the first thing. These cuts do not take effect for eighteen months or more. The second thing, as my noble friend said earlier on in this debate, is that there are a number of Labour Party proposals which we would abandon, such as the Industrial Aid Bill and the Land Commission and all the rest of it, and we feel it would be perfectly possible to save money in order to continue. I think there are some defence cuts which should be made. I think there should be a run-down in some of our bases. But what I do not think is that this country, with its great tradition, should "rat" on

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its promises merely for the sake of a few pounds.
I have misgivings about the future of our forces. I view with alarm the effect of our withdrawal on the stability of the Persian Gulf and of South-East Asia and its effect upon our allies, and I feel ashamed that my country should have broken its word and abandoned its promises and commitments. I confess I find it difficult to understand how some Ministers can continue in office. I should not mind so much if this were just a personal thing. It is, after all, for them to decide where their duty lies and then they have to live with it. But it goes deeper than that. In making the speeches and in making the promises they have not only committed themselves, but they have committed Britain and her good name. They speak not only for themselves but for all of us, and I do not understand how a Government, elected on a programme which they have now completely reversed in almost every particular, can continue or should continue in office.
I do not as a general rule believe that much purpose is served by your Lordships' dividing on issues of this kind. We can make our views felt by weight of argument rather than by numbers. But on this occasion the Government have gone out of their way to put down what, in effect, amounts to a vote of confidence in themselves. None of us on this side could, with an easy conscience, allow that Motion to go unchallenged, for we have no confidence in this Government and we pray that the time will not be far removed when we shall have done with them.
7.50 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, this is the end of a long debate, and I hope that none of your Lordships will mind if I do not mention every speaker who has taken part in the debate and do not attempt to answer every question. If I did, we should be here until a very late hour indeed. I want simply to summarise the Government's position. But I must say, first, that we have listened to seven remarkable maiden speeches. The most remarkable, perhaps, was that by the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, to which I shall be returning. We then had a
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speech from the noble Lord, Lord Franks; and, if I may, I want to comment on that at a later stage. Then there was the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Carron, with all his trade union experience.
As to the next, your Lordships will, I think, feel that in my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies we have a new Member of experience, intelligence and charm. Then we have been interested to hear the views of the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Grasmere, about the school-leaving age. I know personally the devotion which the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has for the Services, and we have all listened with the greatest interest to his speech on that subject. We have heard, too, from the noble Lord, Lord Granville of Eye, on the importance of the incomes policy. I am quite sure that we shall all wish to hear from those noble Lords again.
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Shackleton, in opening this debate on the first day, said that it was a continuation of the debate in another place. I do not think I agree with that; I think it has been a repetition. During the last weeks the very important questions under discussion have very properly been discussed, up hill and down dale, in every newspaper in the country, in a great many television programmes and in broadcasts, and a two-day debate has taken place in the elected Chamber. It is very proper no doubt that the hereditary Chamber should also consider them; but I think it would be right to say that while no doubt most of us would feel that everything had been very much better put in this House than anywhere else, really no new arguments have been raised. It has been the same argument.
What does it come to? There is here, of course, at the basis of all this, a question of economics. In my first year in office I regretted very much that I had never had any training in economics. In my second and third years I have been more doubtful, because I find that at almost every point the expert economists are completely divided; so I wonder whether it would have done any good if I had studied economics. Even if you take a simple question like, "Do we at this point put up the bank rate 1 per cent.?", you will find half the economists saying, "Yes, that is obviously the right

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step in present circumstances and it will create confidence abroad because it will show that you are taking the right steps", and the other half saying, "This will be fatal from the point of view of confidence; they will all take it as a sign of panic". As your Lordships will by now have gathered, I have no great faith in the advice of economists.
Ever since the war we have had one economic crisis after another; and I want to make it quite clear that in what I am about to say I. am not in any way making a Party point. What happens—and it does not matter which Party is in power—is that the Government of the day have to take a number of unpleasant steps which no doubt make them unpopular, and when they become unpopular the Opposition say: "Yah! You are a discredited lot. Why don't you resign? It is obvious the country want us as the Government and not you". This happens whichever Party is in power.
There is a passage which I should like to read, if I may, from the resignation speech of the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, but it would be fair to read first the concluding sentences of the preceding speech, which was a speech by Mr. Gaitskell. This was on January 23, 1958. He said:
"One thing which is quite certain is that the Government and the Party opposite are divided on this issue—some Members opposite are quite honest enough to realise that. They are discredited in the country. They are, without doubt, moving to electoral defeat. They have lost the confidence of the country. While they stay in office, not only our economic policy but our foreign policy is paralysed. We lose chance after chance of seizing the initiative in world affairs and at home their economic policy is, at best, uncertain, shifting and weak and, at worst, calculated to stifle our energies and divide the nation.
"I say to the Government frankly that it is time they went. It is wrong for the country that they should stay. They are tired, troubled men. Let them cling to office no longer. Let them take their rest and let the people choose a new Government "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 23/1/58, col. 1294.]
And I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, as we all know we then had the night of the long knives, and the Government won the next General Election—verb sap!
In the course of that debate the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, said:
"The point I want to put is the quite simple one that for twelve years"—
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this was 1958—
"we have been attempting to do more than our resources could manage, and in the process we have been gravely weakening ourselves. We have, in a sense, been trying to do two things at the same time. First, we have sought to be a nuclear power, matching missile with missile and anti-missile with anti-missile, and with large—and I am not suggesting that economies have not been made—conventional forces in the Far East, the Middle East and the Atlantic at the same time. That is one branch of endeavour which we have attempted. At the same time, we have sought to maintain a Welfare State at as high a level as—sometimes at an even higher level than—that of the United States of America.
"We have been trying to do those things against the background of having to repay debt abroad during the next eight years of a total equal to the whole of our existing reserves; against the background of having to meet maturing debt in this country next year at a higher level even than the very high level of business; against the background of seeking to conduct a great international banking business and against a background of sustaining our position of one of the world's major overseas investors. In those circumstances, it is small wonder that we find some difficulties" [Col. 1295.]
Later, my Lords, he said this, after referring to our aims:
"Those are not unworthy aims, but let no politician, of any party, be under any illusions as to what all this has meant. It has meant that over twelve years we have slithered from one crisis to another. Sometimes it has been a balance of payments crisis and sometimes has been an exchange crisis, but always is has been a crisis. It has meant a £ sterling which has sunk from 20s. to 12s. That is not a picture of the nation we would wish to see. It is a picture of a nation in full retreat from its responsibilities. That is not the path to greatness. It is the road to ruin." [Col. 1296.]
Further years have passed since then. We had the crisis of 1960. Of course, I am not personally a very great enthusiast of the capitalist system, merely because it does not seem to me to work very well. What country would put up with an internal economic system under which no man could make a profit at the end of the year unless some other man made an equivalent loss? Yet, as the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, pointed out, all countries cannot export more than they import. There is also, at the back of it, a lack of international liquidity, which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, did his best, as we know, to liberalise. There is only one European country, I think—but it is an unfair example—which seems to have mastered these difficulties. It is the

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one with, I think, the highest living standard in Europe—Sweden. I say it is an unfair example because they have had what I think is the rather unfair advantage of having had a Socialist Government for 35 years.
My Lords, in 1963 we had a deficit. I think no-one would doubt what again the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, said in this respect. Our experience since the war has been that each time the crisis gets worse and each time it gets more difficult to put right. Here is a point on which I am not sure that I am altogether in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Annan. It seemed to me at the time that just as it would have been in the country's interests if the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, had been taken and there had been a General Election then—whether they won the Election or not—so, having regard to the difficulties once you run into deficit, it would have been to the advantage of the country (whatever Government had been elected) if we had had a General Election in 1963 so that the crisis we were coming into could have been firmly tackled. It is unfortunate that, owing to the difficulties of leadership in the Conservative Party at that time, they put the Election off until the last possible moment, so that there was no Election until October, 1964, by which time, as we know, the deficit was £776 million. If this shows anything at all, it shows how important it is, regardless of Party politics, that if ever anything of this kind happens again it should be tackled urgently and at an early stage, whether there is an approaching General Election or not.
My Lords, we thought, and still think, that we have the answer to this recurring set of crises. Primarily, it was a question of having lagged behind the Common Market for a long time in relation to exports; it was, I think, common ground that our industries had not modernised themselves to anything like the same extent that our rivals had. And, accordingly, we took what steps we could to help industry to modernise. There is the policy on incomes, prices and productivity. It is the first time, I think, that any Government have managed to achieve an incomes policy at all; and on the whole, although it is capable of
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improvement, considering the industrial and other difficulties, it has in the result done pretty well.
We had the National Plan which was compiled after consultation with every industry as to what each industry thought it could do within a particular period looking ahead. It turned out, undoubtedly, to be too optimistic. Then there were the N.E.D.C.s, the "little Neddies", corporation tax, investment grants, the setting up of the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation, restraint on investments overseas and the regional employment premium. And I believe that this Government have done every single thing that any Government could do to help development in the development areas, the North East, Wales and Scotland.
But, of course, all these things take time before they produce results. What we said we were seeking to do was to cut the deficit in half the first year and finish it off the second year, and that then we hoped go into surplus. At first, things seemed to me to be going well. We did in fact cut the deficit to half in the first year—in fact, rather more than half. Then, very suddenly, in July, 1966, with the shipping strike, we ran into a run on the pound and had to take unpleasant steps which, naturally, we should have wished to avoid. It may be—I do not know—that we were trying to do too much. It would not be surprising, I think, if that had been so: a new Government coming into power for the first time for 13 years; with not a motorway, with hardly a hospital built since the war, with the position in the schools, the grave shortage of universities, and the problems of the old age pensioners. So far as strikes are concerned, I will return later to that subject.
It may be—again I do not know—that we should have devalued in July, 1966. I suppose the economic historians will one day tell us. We thought, rightly or wrongly, that a country ought not to devalue unless it had to; and that view was shared strongly by the Opposition. Then, finally, in November last, there was the Middle East war and the dock strike and we had to devalue. I think the noble Lord, Lord Franks, referring to devaluation, said it was a device that we had employed. Let us be plain about

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this. We were not "employing" anything: we devalued because we had to; it was a failure.
Referring for a moment to the Middle East and to the dock strike, I suppose that if I were asked what two things had surprised me most, coming into politics in my old age, I should say, first of all, that as a lawyer I was always brought up to believe that Parliament could do anything, which in law is right; and therefore a Government with a majority could do anything. The first thing that surprises me is to find out how limited are the powers of a Government. First, because of the time scale. You are very much bound by what your predecessors have done; and you find yourself in all sorts of positions in which there is nothing to do except to carry on something which your predecessors started. It is perhaps worth bearing in mind that with a modern sophisticated aircraft, military or civil, it takes about seven years from the time you order it off the drawing board until you get it.
Secondly, you cannot be responsible for external events—or even, sometimes, for internal events such as foot-and-mouth, which has cost £70 million; storms in Glasgow, some millions of pounds of damage, mainly to roofs; the Middle East war, when suddenly all goods have to be paid for coming round Africa instead of through the Suez Canal. And no way has yet been found, as we must admit, to end strikes. I will say more about that later.
Devaluation presented us with two very grave disadvantages which are obvious: namely, first that we have to pay more for our imports; and, second, that we do not get so much from our exports. While on devaluation, may I say that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carron, first in regard to avoiding a floating rate, and, second, when he said that the technicalities were carried out with great skill. I noticed a great difference between the British Press and the foreign Press about this. I keep an eye on the foreign Press because they are at least objective, whereas—and this is no complaint: it is the fact—the British Press are almost entirely Conservative and one does not always get a balanced view.
What was important, of course, was the rate to which we devalued. It would be no good if we did not devalue enough.
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On the other hand, if we devalued too much, everybody else that mattered would have come down with us, and then we should have been no better off. There is no doubt that the point to which we did devalue was the maximum point to which we could have devalued without countries that mattered following us down. There is no real doubt, I think, that while devaluation has these two grave disadvantages for us, it also brings with it a great opportunity because of the lower prices at which we can now export. Of course, price is not everything: quality matters, too; and so do deliveries. And much may still depend on whether we are going to have, in particular, transport strikes.
I share the general view in the House that something ought to be done about strikes. But it is very easy to say this. I am as disappointed as anybody that the Royal Commission on trade union law has not yet reported. I hope that it will do so in two or three months time. There has been passionate advocacy in one quarter for everything which Australia does: the cooling-off periods, industrial courts, enforcement of agreements and so on. That is true. But it is also true that in Australia they have more strikes, and more days lost a year, in relation to population, through strikes, than we have. I think we must now rely on the Royal Commission.
What we have to do to take advantage of this opportunity is again, I think, not seriously challenged. We have limited resources, and therefore we must see to it that the appropriate resources are not all used up for home consumption but are available for export. This means that home consumption has to be pared. It is the fact, I think, as my noble friend Lord Beswick pointed out, that as between public consumption and private consumption we spend more on private consumption and less on public consumption than most countries do. In 1965 the United States proportion of G.N.P. spent on public consumption was 18·1 per cent., and ours was only 16·7. Private consumption in the United Kingdom was 64 per cent., and in the United States 62·6. The average for the Common Market was 60·5 per cent. So it might have been reasonable to say that the curb should be placed primarily, if not wholly, on private consumption. But we thought that public

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consumption must bear its share and it was up to the Government to give a lead.
It has been said, and it is a fair point, "Why did you not do both these things together?" I think that my noble friend Lord Shackleton and my noble friend Lord Beswick have already answered that. Partly it was a question of practicability. Every Government has always found it difficult to cut down expenditure. There are numerous forms of expenditure where it would simply be throwing money away if something was stopped in the middle. Therefore our task was to conduct a complete survey of the whole of public expenditure to decide what the total degree of curbing public expediture should be and in what fields. This, as noble Lords can imagine, has been a vast task for officials, and subsequently for Ministers and then for the Cabinet. It would, I believe, have been literally impossible for the officials and the Ministers to tackle at the same time what in effect is a Budget, particularly if that Budget was to take into account (as it may well and should do, I am sure) new ideas such as those put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Wade.
Perhaps I ought to add this. The Government had already taken very substantial action to cut back home demand at the time of devaluation. Everybody seems to have forgotten that. And now, with the public expenditure cuts announced by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, before deciding the scale of further action to cut private spending the Chancellor prefers to wait for the detailed short-term economic forecast that the Treasury will be making in the month ahead. There is no undue pressure on resources at the moment. Unemployment is well over 2 per cent. and very high by post-war standards, and it is by no means clear that the recent signs of a consumers' spree represent the beginning of a new trend rather than simply being a temporary phenomenon associated with fears of high and direct taxation. The Chancellor recognises, however, that it would be wrong to prolong the interval between necessary action to curb public expenditure, which the Government have now taken, and action to curb private spending. For this reason he has brought forward the date of the Budget substantially.
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My Lords, if that is so, people may well ask, What ought we to do? Is there anything that we can be getting on with?". Well there are two things, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Kahn, and the noble Lord, Lord Granville of Eye, pointed out, it is no less important now than it has ever been to maintain the policy of incomes, prices and productivity. Everybody in industry, particularly those who are able to export, can go straight ahead. It goes further than that, because every man in industry and every trade union, every man on the shop floor or every man who goes to a union branch meeting, will be doing his part for his country if, first, he avoids any unnecessary strike, and secondly, if he curbs demands for increases in pay.
The other thing which people can do is to save. Clearly, voluntary savings have a vital part to play in assisting the necessary switch of national resources. Many forms of national savings, in particular, offer a very convenient way of contributing to the country's recovery and to investment. Not everyone may be able to work an extra half-hour a day, but many could put a half-hour's earnings into a savings bank or into National Savings Certificates or Premium Bonds. This could be done very easily at any post office. National Savings provide an opportunity for everyone to "Back Britain".
In the measures to be taken I do not detect any real criticism of the extent to which it is proposed to curb Government expenditure. The same, I think, is true of the foreign Press. They seem to think that it is about the right amount. Nobody considers it is too large, I think, and few think it is too small. I may be wrong, but I remember only one speaker in your Lordships' House, I think it was the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, who said he thought it was too small. Otherwise I do not remember any criticism of the total amount. If that is so, I should have thought that if anybody suggests that something which is in the programme should be omitted, he is bound to suggest what he thinks ought to take its place.
None of us likes almost any item in the total package. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Amulree; housing has always been my number one priority. I followed

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what the noble Lord said about prescriptions and I would say to him that the increase in dental charges from £1 to 30s. is a case in which the 30s. is the exact equivalent of what the pound was when the amount was fixed, so it is not, in a sense, a real increase. As to prescription charges, I have great sympathy with what was said yesterday by my noble friend Lord Brockway.
I must say that there was a time when I regarded this as a question of principle. I remember when Mr. Bevan and Mr. Wilson resigned because of charges being imposed for dental treatment and so on, and for spectacles in the Health Service. I thought that that was absolutely wrong. It seemed to me that there were two Socialist things which the Labour Government had then done. One was leaving India and the other was the establishing of the National Health Service, a truly Socialist thing.
"From each according to his means, to each according to his needs."
I felt that if Mr. Gaitskell did not understand that, he could not be a Socialist, and I contemplated resigning from the Party. I said that it was a vital question of principle, and if one once started charging for the National Health Service how could the principle endure?
Well, my Lords, I think now that I was wrong. It may be that I am soft in the head now and was right then, but I now think that I was wrong. I do not think it is a question of principle. I think Mr. Bevan was right when he said that politics is the art of choosing priorities. Any Government at any time has only a certain amount of money, and one has to take principles and practices into account in order to make the right decision as to how the money should be spent. I should add, for the benefit of my noble friend Lord Brockway, if I may, that the number of prescriptions since the charges were taken off has gone up from 208 million per year to 268 million per year.
With regard to the school-leaving age, we all respect the integrity of my noble friend Lord Longford, and we know what strong personal views he has on a number of subjects. If I had to choose which item in the package I disliked most, I should say it was postponing raising the school-leaving age. At the same time
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I do not think that this is really a question of principle either. If a year or two ago there had arisen a controversy as to whether the raising of the school-leaving age should be brought forward a year or even two years, I do not think anybody would have thought of that as a question of principle. Of course, it could be said, "If you do not bring it forward 400,000 children are going to be affected for the rest of their lives"; but the year in which you do it, I should have thought, was relative and not really a question of principle.
I know that in the National Union of Teachers a majority are against postponing the raising of the school leaving age, but the Scottish teaching profession is of a different opinion. They have approved the Government's decision. They have always taken this line, on the ground that the shortage of teachers in Scotland is so great that they cannot cope with the greater number of pupils at present. All their organisations have taken this view—the Educational Institute of Scotland, the Scottish Teachers' Union, the Scottish Schoolmasters' Association and the General Teaching Council, which is the statutory body set up to advise the Secretary of State On matters affecting the teaching profession in Scotland. There is no English equivalent to that body. The English National Association of Schoolmasters takes the same view as the Scottish teachers.
While I regret this cut more than any other, I should not have thought that it was a question of principle if one is going to say that the totality of what the Government propose to do is both right and essential but that one objects to this particular item. I should think that there was some onus on those who express that view to say what alternative they suggest. Nothing has been more remarkable in this debate, especially among noble Lords who have spoken on defence, as the failure to say how much the cut should be and what other cuts ought to have been made that have not been made.
Cutting the Civil Service still more is always very popular. We have placed already a standstill order. This will inconvenience the public—I do not want there to be any misunderstanding about that. The reason why the Civil Service increases is very simple. The population

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increases, people have motor cars and there must be more driving licences and taxation licences. If the Civil Service remains the same, then the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, who suggested this, must not cry out if he is unable to drive for a week or two because his driving licence has not arrived. Whether people queue at the post offices I do not know, but we must realise that in an expanding community with a growing population there is bound to be some increase in the Civil Service in some fields.
It is right and inevitable that this means that there must be reductions in other fields. To give an example, ever since I took office we have had a crash programme to extend the compulsory registration of titles to land to all the built-up areas in the country. This is one way of achieving the simplification of the transfer of land. That is not to be stopped, but it is to be very much slowed down so as not to employ more officials as county by county we extend the compulsory registration of land.
Tolls on major roads have been suggested. We have considered that, but anybody who has seen this in operation, as I dare say the noble Viscount has seen it in New York, where there are five to six lines of traffic going one way and the other, and at rush hours a high maximum density, will realise that we found in relation to English roads and density that it is doubtful whether the tolls collected would pay for the cost of collecting them. At least, they would not bring in a sufficient amount.
The noble Viscount also said that there was a lot of waste on local authority minor roads and on local staff. We entirely agree, but the noble Viscount had not done his homework as well as usual, because in paragraph 45 of the White Paper dealing with local authorities it says:
Local authorities are being asked to find £75 million over two years out of their expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of their roads."
And paragraph 60 mentions the 46 per cent. increase in local authority staffs. The noble Viscount will find the subject matter of the actions we are taking in paragraph 50.
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The noble Viscount also suggested raising the price of school meals. It would require at least 2s. extra—that is to say, 3s. 6d. per meal, which would be a good deal more than the cost of the meal—to provide an amount which would enable us to avoid deferring the raising of the school leaving age. And obviously a charge of that kind per child per meal would cancel the effect of family allowances.
The only other alternative, which I am afraid would not raise the £75 million, is a reduction in ministerial salaries. This would be a very proper thing to consider when we are considering the private sector. The House will remember that the Lawrence Committee reported on what they thought Members of Parliament and Ministers ought to have. The Government implemented that Report so far as Members of Parliament are concerned. Ministers took only half and have ever since taken only half, though nobody has the slightest idea of this and nobody gives them any credit for it. One is always on delicate ground in this field. People will either say, "Yes, you ought to do that", or say, "That is simply a gimmick". There have been no really sensible suggestions of any alternative cuts which it would be profitable to make.
I should like to say something on Defence, but I do not want to say too much because my noble friends Lord Shackleton and Lord Chalfont have already spoken on this so fully. In reply to the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, I would say that it would have been very nice if, before making what to them are serious cuts, we could have consulted universities, schools and teachers' organisations, the medical profession and the building societies. But on the timescale it was not possible to do that.
With regard to the meaning of "care and maintenance basis", may I be allowed to say that we must get the thing into proportion. We are not abolishing the voluntary system. T. & A.V.R.I and II are to be 37,000 and T. & A.V.R.III approximately half that, 14,500, and only these will be affected. But I confirm the undertaking given by the Minister of Defence for Administration that no steps to disband Category III will be taken before

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the T.A. Council has discussed the proposals and made its recommendations. Further discussions are in fact being held on the question of the care and maintenance organisation.
I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, that there is modern equipment in the Rhine Army. I have listened with sympathy to what he has said about Category III. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, that we ought to have an early Defence debate, when the matters can be gone into in more detail. The answer to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is, assuming an average increase around 3 per cent. in G.N.P., the defence percentage in 1972–73 will be about 5.
Defence has been so covered that I really wish to add little to what has been said. It has seemed to me, and I think to many, for a long time that this country had still to decide what its place was in the modern post-war world, and it had seemed to many of us that it was impossible any longer to pretend that we were really a world Power. I think myself it is a welcome end to what I regard as a folie de grandeur. We can never, I think, afford again to occupy that position. The world Powers to-day are the United States and Russia, and there are obviously large potentials about China. But ahead of everybody else we have been spending a larger proportion of our G.N.P. than any other Western Power. Our future lies in Europe, to whose defence we should, and will, continue to contribute.
I suppose that one of the difficulties has been the extraordinary expense of modern sophisticated equipment. I think I am right in saying that during the war there was a public appeal to wealthy people to find £5,000 for a Spitfire. That, I believe, was slightly underestimated, but it was the nearest round figure: it was the figure given by the Government. One hundred Spitfires, I suppose, would cost £500,000. One hundred F.111s would cost about £430 million—a saving of £400 million, even after paying cancellation charges. This shows the astonishing extent to which sophisticated modern weapons have risen in cost.
So far as Singapore is concerned, the decision in relation to the Far East is really not this decision. The decision was
426
made when we decided to withdraw in the middle 1970s, which we took as being 1973–77. That is when the decision was taken. What we have now had to do, owing to devaluation and the additional expense—everything has to be paid across the exchanges—is to leave two years earlier, but nevertheless in four years' time. In four years those countries, which are not impoverished in the sense that many underdeveloped countries unfortunately are, should be able, within a time, to provide, with our assistance, perhaps partly in sophisticated equipment and partly in training units, a defence system of their own. After all, Singapore is booming, partly with merchants opening a branch there from Hong Kong. Singapore's reserves are, I think, £200 million for a population of 2 million. I wish that our reserves were anything like that in proportion.
So far as concerns the Gulf, of which several noble Lords have spoken, for about 16 years I acted for one of the Western oil companies active in the Middle East, and I am familiar with the set-up. I have read all the Treaties and letters of engagement. Most of them date from the last century. There is not a single one which puts upon us any obligation to have any troops in the Gulf at all. It was not until well after the last war that we had anything except a naval force in the neighbourhood. Until about five years ago, I think it would be right to say that the oil companies in the Middle East wanted all the oil they could get. Then about five years ago it became apparent that there was a surplus of oil in the world, and I have thought ever since, rightly or wrongly, that the need of the Arab oil-producing companies to sell their oil to us is greater than our need to buy it from them. I think that became apparent during the Middle East war, Your Lordships may remember that for political reasons, believing—of course, quite falsely—that we had taken part they turned all the taps off. Then pretty soon they were fairly anxious to turn them on again, because they wanted the money. When they turned the taps off, the fact that we had troops there did not stop them turning them off; they could not shoot them in the back. They did not turn them on again because we had troops there. Our interest is really commercial.

427
There is, as we have seen from Aden—I say no more than this—some danger in agreements for local forces made with Arabian sheikhs. We were in the end fortunate in regard to Aden, first because of the quality of the Governor; secondly, because of the quality and conduct of our Armed Forces there; and, thirdly, and not least, because of the activities of my noble friend Lord Shackleton, particularly in the last week. I suggest it does not matter which way round you go if you have to go to the Far East. There are two airfields in Canada and four in the United States, and one can go one way or the other.
My Lords, if I once start on South Africa, about which I confess I feel strongly, I am afraid that we shall be here for a very long time, and I hope that noble Lords, and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, will not mind if I do not deal with that subject today. Tomorrow we have a debate on the United Nations, when the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, will be here, and after that debate, as I understand it, there is an Unstarred Question in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alport, on Rhodesia. So this seems to me to be very much within the field of tomorrow's debate.
Finally, may I say this. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester said that we had had a sensational Press. The noble Lord, Lord Franks, was sorry that we built everything up so much, because when the package was announced he thought it was an anti-climax. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, raised rather the same point. May I make it quite clear that we did not build anything up at all? One of the things that you discover in politics is that you have been at Cabinet meetings which have never been held; or that there has been a violent row on a subject which has never been discussed. We certainly have not done anything to build it up. I do not know whether the noble Lord will ever live to see the day, or whether I shall live to see the day, when a political correspondent says in the papers: "I have tried my best to find out what happened in the Cabinet this morning. I have tackled every single member of the Cabinet, and I have asked the Secretary of the Cabinet. None of them will tell
428
me, so I am afraid that I do not know". There must always be rows, and very often fights going on: there is constant speculation by intelligent correspondents. But it is speculation. If they make a speculation, it is 50–50 whether they get it right. I remember one case in which one political correspondent—certainly there was a division of opinion in the Cabinet—named everybody, who was on which side, and got it 100 per cent. wrong. That must be, I think, very unusual.
Coming to the end, I must, I think, say this to your Lordships. I began by indicating that I was not strongly in favour of economic crises which are used as a "football" between political Parties. Reverting to something that my noble friend Lord Longford said, I feel that there has recently been in the papers a vicious vilification and denigration of the Prime Minister which has really passed all the bounds of public decency. One can understand it in a way, because it was clear that, whether the Government were popular or not, the people had great confidence in the Prime Minister, and one can well understand how a Conservative Press, felt that they were not going to do arty good unless they could break that confidence. But there comes a point, I think, where personal denigration affects politicians of all Parties. Sitting on the Woolsack, I could not help noticing, two things about this debate. First, I do not think for any debate I have ever seen the House more crowded, or the Visitors' Gallery more empty. It has filled up a little for the Vote, but for most of the time it has been practically empty. I think that people generally are sick and tired of Party politics. They think, I believe, on the whole—and it is our duty to explain it to them—that the steps which the Government propose to take are the right steps, the right size; and it is equally true, I believe, that there is no real alternative. I think they want us to get on with it, and they want to help if they can.
This matter has been argued out at good length in the Press and on television, and for two days in the elected Chamber. I notice that in reports from our Ambassadors the foreign Press paid a good deal of attention to the result of the Vote in the elected Chamber, because the Conservative Opposition did not

429
oppose, and the Vote in support of the Government was 304 to 9. This has been taken in other countries as showing that, in these very difficult and unpopular steps, the Government have the country as a whole behind them.
I would ask noble Lords in the hereditary Chamber who are thinking of carrying a Vote of Censure against the Government to consider what they are doing, and I would particularly ask Cross-Benchers, whatever Party they belong to, or if they belong to no Party, to consider whether it is really in the interests
of our country that those abroad, who may not understand the complications of the hereditary system or the built-in Conservative majority, should wake up to find the Government defeated. For this reason which I venture to give, I would ask such noble Lords to vote against the Amendment, or, alternatively, to abstain.
8.43 p.m.
Their Lordships divided: Contents 148; Not-Contents 107.

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Dundee, E.

Molson, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Dundonald, E.

Monckton of Brenchley, V.

Ailwyn, L.

Eccles, V.

Morrison, L.

Albemarle, E.

Effingham, E.

Mottistone, L.

Aldington, L.

Egremont, L.

Mountevans, L.

Allerton, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Alport, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Nairne, Bs.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Newton, L.

Ampthill, L.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Norfolk, D. (E. Marshal.)

Ashbourne, L.

Essex, E.

Oakshott, L.

Atholl, D.

Ferrers, E.

Pender, L.

Auckland, L.

Ferrier, L.

Penrhyn, L.

Audley, Bs.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Piercy, L.

Balerno, L.

Gage, V.

Rathcavan, L.

Bathurst, E.

Glasgow, E.

Reading, M.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Glendevon, L.

Redesdale, L.

Belstead, L.

Glendyne, L.

Redmayne, L.

Bessborough, E.

Grantchester, L.

Rochdale, V.

Boston, L.

Gray, L.

Rockley, L.

Bourne, L.

Greenway, L.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Brentford, V.

Hacking, L.

St. Helens, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hastings, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Hawke, L.

Salter, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Hayter, L.

Sandford, L.

Buckton, L.

Hives, L.

Sandys, L.

Burnham, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Savile, L.

Caccia, L.

Hylton-Foster, Bs.

Selkirk, E.

Carrington, L.

Ilford, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Inchyra, L.

Shannon, E.

Clitheroe, L.

Inglewood, L.

Sherfield, L.

Coleraine, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Sinclair of Cleeve, L.

Colgrain, L.

Jessel, L.

Strange, L.

Conesford, L.

Killearn, L.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kinnoull, E.

Strathcarron, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Lambert, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Craigavon, V.

Leigh, L.

Swansea, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Swinton, E.

Cranbrook, E.

Lloyd, L.

Teynham, L.

Crathorne, L.

Long, V.

Thurlow, L.

Crawshaw, L.

Lonsdale, E.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Croft, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Vivian, L.

Cromartie, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Daventry, V.

Malmesbury, E.

Ward of Witley, V.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Wedgwood, L.

Derwent, L.

May, L.

Willingdon, M.

Digby, L.

Mersey, V.

Wolverton, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Mills, V.

Woolton, E.

Drumalbyn, L.

Milverton, L.

Younger of Leckie, V.

Dudley, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Moyle, L.

Airedale, L.

Garnsworthy, L.

Nunburnholme, L.

Amulree, L.

Geddes of Epsom, L.

Pargiter, L.

Annan, L.

Gifford, L.

Peddie, L.

Arwyn, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Phillips, Bs.

Asquith of Yarnbury, Bs.

Goodman, L.

Platt, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Popplewell, L.

Beswick, L. [Teller.]

Granville-West, L.

Raglan, L.

Birk, Bs.

Hall, V.

Rathcreedan, L.

Blyton, L.

Henderson, L.

Rhodes, L.

Bowden, L.

Henley, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Bowles, L. [Teller.]

Heycock, L.

Royle, L.

Brockway, L.

Hill of Wivenhoe, L.

St. Davids, V.

Brown, L.

Hilton of Upton, L.

Serota, Bs.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Hirshfield, L.

Shackleton, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Burden, L.

Hughes, L.

Shepherd, L.

Burton of Coventry, Bs.

Hunt, L.

Silkin, L.

Caradon, L.

Hurcomb, L.

Snow, L.

Carnock, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Soper, L.

Carron, L.

Kahn, L.

Sorensen, L.

Chalfont, L.

Kennet, L.

Stocks, Bs.

Champion, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Stonham, L.

Chorley, L.

Kirkwood, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Citrine, L.

Latham, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Collison, L.

Leatherland, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Lindgren, L.

Swanborough, Bs.

Crook, L.

Llewelyn-Davies, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Darwen, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, Bs.

Tayside, L.

Delacourt-Smith, L.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Wade, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Longford, E.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Douglass of Cleveland, L.

McLeavy, L.

Wigg, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Maelor, L.

Williamson, L.

Faringdon, L.

Mais, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Fiske, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Woolley, L.

Fleck, L.

Mitchison, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Gaitskell, Bs.

Morris of Kenwood, L.

On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.

  ADOPTION OF CHILDREN CONVENTION
  ADOPTION OF CHILDREN CONVENTION