Sitting of 22 January 1968

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  U.S.S.R. (MUTUAL PROPERTY CLAIMS)
  Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now make a statement about the negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for the settlement of mutual property claims.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. William Rodgers): The Anglo-Soviet Agreement concerning the settlement of mutual financial and property claims was signed on 5th January.
  Mr. Blaker: Is the Minister aware that an agreement on this difficult subject will be generally welcomed, if it is a satisfactory one? In this connection, will he say why the Government have agreed to pay over to the Soviet Government half a million pounds from assets in this country which otherwise would
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  have been available to meet the claims of British claimants?
  Mr. Rodgers: This was a very difficult issue, but, by common consent, it was desirable to find a settlement in circumstances where many claimants had been waiting as long as 28 years. As I told the House on 17th January, the money was not paid over until the 12th of the month, after the agreement had been signed.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: With regard to the gold entrusted by the Governments of the Baltic States to Britain, since no British Government have recognised de jure the incorporation of the Baltic States in the U.S.S.R., can we have an assurance that, in the event of self-determination, restitution of the amounts will be made to the independent Governments of the Baltic States?
  Mr. Rodgers: I do not think that I could give such an undertaking. This is a practical agreement which recognises the realities, although its terms make no difference to the Government's policy of withholding recognition de jure of the incorporation of the Baltic States in the Soviet Union.

  NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION
  Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give consideration to the question of withdrawing from the North Atlantic

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  Treaty Organisation; and if Her Majesty's Government would give notice of denunciation in April, 1969, under Article 13 of the Treaty so that the United Kingdom could withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation by 1970.
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Frederick Mulley): No, Sir.
  Mr. Roberts: Would the Minister not agree that, now that we have abandoned our dreams of a world military rôle, we should come to terms with ourselves by getting out of N.A.T.O. and out of Germany? Will he not accept that we shall be forced to do it in a few years, and we might as well act now, thus saving some prestige and a great deal of unnecessary sacrifice for the British people?
  Mr. Mulley: I cannot accept that premise. I want to make it clear that we remain firmly committed to the Atlantic Alliance as the basis of our security, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made clear in his speech in the debate last Thursday. We believe that progress in improving relations with the countries of Eastern Europe can best be made in close consultation with our allies, and N.A.T.O. has an important role to play in this.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Is the Minister aware that his Answer is very acceptable to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House? If, in particular, the Foreign Secretary is concentrating British policies more and more on Europe, as seems to be the case, surely he should find ways and means of increasing our help to N.A.T.O. rather than decreasing it.
  Mr. Mulley: I am grateful for the support of the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Rankin: Do not our obligations in N.A.T.O. lead us at times into difficulties with friendly Powers in South East Asia like Cambodia and Laos when the United States violates their neutrality?
  Mr. Mulley: I cannot see the connection between the events of which my hon. Friend speaks and the existence of the N.A.T.O. Alliance, the geographical limits of which are very precisely drawn.
  Mr. Longden: Is the Minister aware that many of his hon. Friends, who do not care tuppence for the future of this country if they can get their prescriptions for nothing, are peculiarly susceptible to Soviet propaganda, which will increase this year, that we should withdraw from N.A.T.O.? May I reinforce what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)? The right hon. Gentleman's reply has been welcomed on these benches.
  Mr. Winnick: Silly little man.
  Mr. Mulley: While the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) may not be susceptible to Soviet propaganda, obviously he is susceptible to propaganda from other quarters. I repudiate his very insulting remarks about hon. Members on this side of the House. In facing up to the economic circumstances in which the country is now, we not only are doing the right thing but have the support of the nation.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: Will the Minister point out to his hon. Friends that the Warsaw Pact is stronger than ever and that, until there is some sign of a reduction of forces in Central Europe, we should maintain the shield of N.A.T.O. as strong as it is now?
  Mr. Mulley: I do not think that there is evidence suggesting that my hon. hon. Friends need any education in this subject. The admirable speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary last Thursday was, I thought, loudly applauded in all quarters.
  Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in view of the Government's policy to plan on the basis that there is no likelihood of a Russian attack in Europe, he will put forward at the forthcoming discussions of the future of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation proposals for a reducation in its armed forces.
  Mr. Mulley: At their meeting in December at Brussels, North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Ministers agreed that one of the future tasks of the Alliance would be to intensify studies of disarmament and practical arms control measures, including the possibility of balanced force reductions.
  Mr. Allaun: If America and France can unilaterally withdraw their troops, why cannot we? Is a reduction of one brigade anywhere near good enough?
  Mr. Mulley: I do not think that unilateral reductions in forces would be appropriate in view of the considerable forces which the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact Powers maintain in Europe. We welcome and do what we can, as do our allies, to seek mutual reductions in forces, and I very much hope that we can go forward in that direction.
  Mr. Goodhew: Would the Minister give a categorical assurance to the House that no plans are being made in the Ministry of Defence to withdraw half our forces from Germany?
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Member asked me about plans in the Ministry of Defence. He must address that question to the Minister in charge of that Department.
  Mr. Mayhew: Is the Minister aware that if limited fighting broke out in Europe there are good reasons for believing that it is more likely to be at sea than on land? When the Royal Navy is withdrawn from Singapore and the Persian Gulf, will he consider making a substantial naval contribution to N.A.T.O., especially in the Mediterranean?
  Mr. Mulley: As a former Minister in the Department my hon. Friend realises that strategic questions of that sort are best addressed to the Minister of Defence.
  Sir T. Beamish: Does the Minister accept the flat statement in the Question that there is no likelihood of a Russian attack in Europe? If not, why did he not dispute it?
  Mr. Mulley: If we took upon ourselves the task of rewriting all the Questions put down as well as giving the Answers, that would be a rather long task. I accept that the danger of Soviet attack is very much less than it was some years ago, but equally I think that the role of N.A.T.O. has not been unimportant in that happy development.

  OVERSEAS INFORMATION SERVICES
  Mr. David Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent overseas information officers are qualified in the commercial field.
  Mr. William Rodgers: Trade promotion is a major element in the work of information officers and a considerable part of their training course is devoted to commercial publicity. This includes discussions with the Board of Trade and the Committees of the British National Export Council.
  Mr. Watkins:I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but is it a fact that information officers are doing an increasing amount of commercial work, and will he give particular attention to appointing commercially qualified personnel in those posts in future?
  Mr. Rodgers: It is indeed the case that our information officers are doing an increasing amount of commercial work, and I think that the House would applaud this as being in line with our overall policies. Certainly we shall bear in mind, for this reason, ensuring that information officers are particularly well-qualified in this sphere.
  Mr. Blaker: Is not the whole trouble the fact that Her Majesty's Government are not qualified in the commercial field?
  Mr. David Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now announce a decision on the future level of overseas information services.
  Mr. William Rodgers: In view of the importance of our overseas information services in supporting export promotion and in sustaining Britain's position abroad, Her Majesty's Government have decided that, despite the need to reduce public expenditure as a whole, our overseas information effort should be maintained at about the prevent level of activity for the next four years.
  Mr. Watkins: Ought we not, however, to increase our information services, especially in those areas where we are reducing our military commitments?
  Mr. Rodgers: There is a great case for doing so if our means allowed. I think that it has been generally recognised on both sides of the House that our information services have a most important role to play in maintaining Britain's influence abroad, but for the moment I am afraid I can hold out no hope for natural expansion.
  Mr. Walters: Will the Minister give some indication as to which of the recommendations made by Sir Harold Bealey have been or are about to be implemented?
  Mr. Rodgers: Our decision on expenditure and the level of activity is broadly in line with the recommendation that Sir Harold Bealey made at the end of his inquiry.

  DISARMAMENT
  Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the results achieved by Ministers of State responsible for disarmament since October, 1964.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): Both of my right hon. Friends have displayed great skill and tenacity in the search for progress in the field of arms control and disarmament. Under their leadership the United Kingdom has played a full and influential role in international negotiations, notably on the non-proliferation issue.
  Mr. Blaker: Does the Foreign Secretary recall that the Labour Party Manifesto of 1964 promised the nation that first and foremost would come the Labour Government's initiative concerning disarmament? Will the Foreign Secretary remind the House what that initiative was?
  Mr. Brown: Yes. Will the hon. Gentleman recall that we seem to be getting very near to the signing of a nonproliferation treaty? Will he recognise this as a very great benefit for mankind, and that the British Government have played a large part in achieving it?

  CYPRUS (U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCE)
  Mr. Moyleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what initiatives he proposes to take in the United Nations
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  with a view to ensuring a more positive role for the United Nations peacekeeping force in Cyprus.
  Mr. William Rodgers: In accordance with the Security Council's unanimous Resolution of 22nd December, 1967, the United Nations Secretary-General is discussing aspects of the Cyprus question with the parties concerned, including the role of the United Nations Force. The Secretary-General has the full support of Her Majesty's Government in the exercise of his good offices.
  Mr. Moyle: I congratulate my hon. Friend on standing by Her Majesty's Government in the United Nations, but will he bear in mind that, as we do not seem to have sufficient to look after our vital interests overseas, there is a limit to what we can spend on looking after other people?
  Mr. Rodgers: Yes, I recognise that. But it still remains the case that we have an interest in preserving peace wherever it may be. I think that most people would agree that we get very good value for money in the light of the contribution that we make to the United Nations force in Cyprus.

  UNITED NATIONS (FOURTH COMMITTEE)
  Mr. Moyleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is satisfied with continued British participation in the affairs of the Fourth Committee of the United Nations; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. William Rodgers: The Fourth Committee is one of the main Committees of the General Assembly and includes all members of the United Nations. We intend to continue to take a full part in its work.
  Mr. Moyle: Whilst being fully sympathetic with the wishes of the Gibraltarians not to be ruled by a Fascist dictatorship, may I ask whether my hon. Friend will bear in mind that this Committee can be a useful channel for directing world opinion against the Government of South Africa on its unfortunate attitude towards the South-West African mandate?
  Mr. Rodgers: It would not be right to be drawn into the particular issues which my hon. Friend has raised; but it is clear that, while the recommendations of the Fourth Committee are not mandatory, we attach great importance to them as representing the majority of the member States. We consider each one on its merit and we consider fully what useful part the Fourth Committee can play.
  Mr. Ridsdale: Why does not the British representative on the Fourth Committee vote against the use of force against Rhodesia? Surely, whatever the British Government may think, they do not believe in the use of force against Rhodesia?
  Mr. Rodgers: I do not think that the individual issue of Rhodesia arises on this Question. As I say, we consider what we shall do on the merits at the time.
  Mr. Ogden: Does my hon. Friend agree that the British representative on this Committee has one of the most difficult tasks at the United Nations, and will he give him our support?
  Mr. Rodgers: Yes. I am glad that my hon. Friend has said that. I want to pay great tribute to the work recently done by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Luard), who has put up a truly magnificent performance in most difficult and sometimes trying conditions.
  Mr. G. Campbell: Will the Government do more to point out to this Committee that its decision on Gibraltar was contradictory to the principle which it usually voices so vocally about self-determination?
  Mr. Rodgers: That was said very clearly. It was said by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and repeated many times in the course of the debates in the Fourth Committee before Christmas.

  NON-PROLIFERATION AGREEMENT
  Mr. Coeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on progress towards a non-proliferation agreement.
  Mr. Bob Brownasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what
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  progress has been made by the Eighteen-National Disarmament Committee in Geneva towards the achievement of a non-proliferation treaty; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Mulley: A new draft of the Treaty, revised to take account of the views expressed during the previous session of the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee and including an agreed Safeguards Article III, was tabled by the co-Chairmen at the opening meeting of the Committee's new session at Geneva on 18th January. The draft text of the Treaty is now therefore complete and is open for general debate in the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee and later in the United Nations. Copies of the amended text will be placed in the Library of the House as soon as possible. Her Majesty's Government greatly welcome this development, in which we have played our part. We hope that it will lead to early and final agreement on the Treaty.
  Mr. Coe: I am sure that the whole House welcomes the news given by my right hon. Friend, but could he be more specific about when he thinks the Treaty might be signed?
  Mr. Mulley: It is too early yet to give a date. My hon. Friend will know that it is intended, by the middle of March, to report from Geneva to the United Nations when further sessions will be held. I hope that it will not be long before a very large number of countries find themselves able to sign and later ratify this Treaty.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will not be a party to anything in this Treaty which would discriminate against or between existing members of the European Community?
  Mr. Money: I am not sure what is meant by "discrimination as between the members of the European Community". Certainly as a country interested in the development of the European Community, we have consistently taken the line that their special circumstances must be borne in mind in the drafting of the Treaty. Whether all the

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  members of the Community become signatories is a matter on which I cannot speculate.

  SOUTH EAST ASIA TREATY ORGANISATION
  Mr. Coeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what proposals he has made for changes in the rôle of the South East Asia Treaty Organisation.
  Mr. George Brown: We shall be amending our force declarations to the South East Asia Treaty Organisation as our forces in the area are run down. But no proposals for changes in the rôle of the Organisation have been put forward by any of our partners in the South East Asia Treaty Organisation, and we see no reason to seek them ourselves.
  Mr. Coe: Will my right hon. Friend agree that, as we run down our forces, our rôle should be more towards helping nations to stand on their own feet economically than from a security point of view?
  Mr. Brown: As I said the other night when winding up the debate, I believe that to be profoundly true, and we will do that. But it does not mean that we need at the same time to seek any change in the rôle of the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: is the Foreign Secretary going to negotiate these reductions or give our allies a flat statement?
  Mr. Brown: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has got the whole thing wrong. The situation in S.E.A.T.O. is that forces are declared, but, unlike N.A.T.O., forces are not necessarily committed.

  VIETNAM
  Mr. Winnickasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what further British action has been taken to seek an end to the Vietnam war.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations were made to the United States Government in relation to the war in Vietnam during the last 12 months.
  Mr. George Brown: We have been, and remain, in close contact with other Governments concerned, including the United States Government, about ways and means of bringing the Vietnam war to an end. The House will understand, however, that I cannot reveal details of these private exchanges.
  Mr. Winnick: Is it not tragic that at a time when the Government of North Vietnam have said that once the bombing stops there will be negotiations, there is no sign of talks beginning? Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us genuinely fear that instead of negotiations, and a stop in the bombing, the Americans will step up the war in the illusion that they can win an outright military victory?
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend may fear that, and I have tried many times to allay his fears without very much success. May I assure him that I am in the closest contact with what is going on. I think that this is a very good moment for all of us who wish to see the hostilities to be allayed to keep quiet and allow the consultations and conversations to go on.
  Mr. Lyon: It is all very well for my right hon. Friend to say that we should keep quiet. Indeed, for most of the period of this Government that is what one has done, but is there any point in going on with public support for a American action in Vietnam if our influence appears to be diminishing to the extent where even Mr. McNamara is sacked because he has reservations about it?
  Mr. Brown: I think that my hon. Friend is miles wide of the mark in the last thing that he said, but I am bound to say that if we want to bring the war to an end, if we want to stop the bombing, and if we want to get the parties to the table, this is the moment to allow the consultations and investigations that are going on to continue, and I simply do not think that my hon. Friends will help by the kind of comments they are making.
  There were parts of Mr. Trinh's speech which were encouraging; there were other parts which were not so encouraging. One has to find out what is the significant part. I really do suggest that this is the moment above all when we would do most good by allowing these investigations to go on.
  Mr. Walters: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that after the announcement made by the Government last week, which caused such shock in the United States, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand, whatever influence we had on policy in the Far East has been quickly diminished?
  Mr. Brown: No, Sir, I do not think so at all. I have good reasons for knowing that this is not so, and I say to hon. Gentlemen opposite what I say to my hon. Friends, that if we are concerned with using our influence to bring the hostilities to a close, to stop the bombing, and to get the talks started, this is, above all, the moment for us to allow such consultations as are going on to continue without being messed up by too much talk from here.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: Has it been made clear to the United States Government that even though Her Majesty's Government have not so far dissociated themselves from American action in Vietnam, if they step up the war there we shall dissociate ourselves from them?
  Mr. Brown: I am most certainly not willing to answer hypothetical questions like that. I trust that nobody will step up the war. I trust that both parties, including Hanoi, will try to de-escalate, and try to get to the table.
  Mr. Ridsdale: Is it not quite clear that the American Government are doing everything they can to seek a political settlement, and is not by far the best place to try to find peace in Vietnam the United Nations, and not by activities from the Left-Wing of the Labour Government?
  Mr. Brown: I do not see much point in that question, but I am certain that the Americans are very willing to go to the table and to talk if the others will, but I repeat that at what could be a critical moment I do not think that we are doing much good in this House by exchanging this kind of polemics.
  Mr. Shinwell: Surely the Americans have been grossly offended by what we have decided to do about withdrawing our Forces from east of Suez, and would they be re-offended if we now took action
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  and asked them to get out of Vietnam, since it is impossible to gain a military victory? Would it not also please de Gaulle and allow us to get into the Common Market?
  Mr. Brown: I think that I disagree with every part of my right hon. Friend's tripartite question. I do not believe that the Americans were deeply offended. I think that they understood. I do not think that there is any question of the second part, of my asking them to get out of Vietnam, and I think that my right hon. Friend, as an ex-Minister of Defence, and, if I may say so, as a very patriotic one, ought to look at the origins of why the Americans are there. As for the third part of the question, I shall deal with the Europeanisation of our policy without the kind of considerations which my right hon. Friend has introduced into the question.
  Sir J. Rodgers: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is likely to raise this matter of the Vietnam war during his visit to Russia, and the possibility of action being taken to bring the two sides to the conference table?
  Mr. Brown: I think that it would be very foolish of me this afternoon to indicate what issues my right hon. Friend will be discussing in Moscow.

  RHODESIA
  Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he has made to the Portuguese and South African Governments concerning the breaking of sanctions against Rhodesia; and what representations he has made to the South African Government about the continuing entry of unauthorised armed South African Government personnel into British territory in Rhodesia.
  Mr. Mulley: We have taken up these matters in each case at the diplomatic level. These exchanges are necessarily confidential.
  Mr. Judd: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the time has come to internationalise the supervision of sanctions and the investigation of sanction breaking, thereby increasing effectively

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  the pressure on South Africa and Portugal? Would he not agree that it is intolerable that foreign troops should be allowed to operate uninvited on British territory?
  Mr. Mulley: I agree very much with my hon. Friend's intention, but he knows that it is for the Security Council to decide whether any member of the United Nations is fulfilling its obligations under a mandatory resolution. The Secretary-General has reported that policies pursued by South Africa and Portugal have strengthened the economic position of the illegal régime and fortified it in its defiance of the international community. We cannot purport to act for the Security Council.
  Mr. Wall: As the British Government have instituted a blockade of Portuguese ports, and recently insulted South Africa over the arms ban, does the right hon. Gentleman think that any such representations would have any effect at all with those two governments?
  Mr. Mulley: I think that the representations which we have made have had some effect, but I understand all the difficulties.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what further representations he has made to the Portuguese Government regarding the officially recorded 350 per cent. increase in Portuguese imports from Rhodesia and the 180 per cent. increase in Portuguese exports to Rhodesia during the first eight months of 1967; and with what results.
  Mr. Mulley: I agree that there have been substantial increases in Portuguese trade with Rhodesia, although not of quite the same order as the hon. Member has quoted. He will know that we are in regular touch with other Governments including the Portuguese Government regarding breaches of mandatory sanctions. The hon. Member will also be aware that the Portuguese Government challenge the validity of the Security Council Mandatory Resolution.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that the Government were facing up to the economic situation of the country after three years of Labour rule? How can we believe that as long
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  as this country, and this country alone, bars trade with this valuable market and surrenders it to our foreign competitors?
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman is nowhere near correct in saying that this is the only country which has restricted its trade with Rhodesia. Carrying out what we deem to be a moral policy involves sacrifice to trade. Surely that was clear from the outset of these sanctions.
  Mr. Ronald Atkins: Is is not time that my hon. Friend reminded Portugal that she is our oldest ally and that unless she is a little more friendly in future we must start considering a revision of that long-out-of-date treaty?
  Mr. Mulley: The Portuguese Government are well aware of our views about sanctions and about the part which they are not playing in enforcing them.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what further representations he has made to the Japanese Government regarding the officially recorded 54 per cent. increase in Japanese exports to Rhodesia in the first seven months of 1967; and with what result.
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we are in regular touch with the Japanese Government as regards breaches of mandatory sanctions. In addition my right hon. Friend, the Foreign Secretary took the opportunity of raising this question when he was recently in Tokyo.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: A fat lot of good that did. Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is about time that we abandoned this farce? If many of his hon. Friends object to a change of policy in this matter, could not he get the Patronage Secretary to exclude them from meetings of the Labour Party at which Rhodesia is discussed?
  Mr. Mulley: The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary was not in his mind when he tabled the Question. The House may be interested to know that the figure which he quotes today, of 54 per cent., is only just above half the same figure which he quoted for Japan last October, so we are moving in the right direction.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Have the Japanese Government protested to Her Majesty's Government about the fact that British ships carrying Rhodesian food, fruit and vegetables and calling at Durban and Cape Town are being stopped?
  Mr. Mulley: I am not aware of that. If the hon. Gentleman will send me details I will see that they are looked at.

  MIDDLE EAST
  Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the Middle East.
  Mr. George Brown: Not today, Sir. I think it would be more convenient for the House if we await the Foreign Affairs debate which is to take place later this week.
  Mr. Judd: Can my right hon. Friend give any up-to-date information on the plight of the 220,000 new refugees on the East Bank of the Jordan during the winter months?
  Mr. Brown: I think that it will be better if we take this into account during the much wider debate which we are to have, starting on Wednesday, rather than do it by question and answer. This does not mean that I do not agree with my hon. Friend that this is a very important question, but it is part of a much wider complex, and, if he agrees, I would rather deal with it when I speak later in the week.
  Mr. Tapsell: Is it true, as stated in The Times and other newspapers today, that certain of our allies in the Gulf have offered to meet the cost of maintaining a British military presence there?
  Mr. Brown: That does not seem to arise out of this Question, and in any case I would not ever be called on to answer for the truth of what I read in the newspapers, including The Times.
  Dr. David Owenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he now envisages to ensure the full implementation of the United Kingdom Resolution on the Middle East carried unanimously in the Security Council.
  Mr. George Brown: It is not for Her Majesty's Government to decide on the
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  manner of its implementation. The Resolution of the United Nations explicitly recognised this in appointing a Special Representative of the Secretary-General to go to the area to begin discussions with the parties concerned. While his mission is in progress I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment further. But as the House knows Her Majesty's Government are keeping in close touch with all concerned.
  Dr. Owen: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his great contribution to getting this Resolution passed, but does not he agree that it is rather disappointing that so far little action seems to have followed the passing of the Resolution!
  Mr. Brown: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for the first part of his supplementary question. I ask him not to be too anxious or gloomy about the second part. I believe that the mission is proceeding very well at the moment, and I have great hopes that we will succeed in getting the beginnings of a settlement there.
  Mr. Wood: Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything about the reactions to this Resolution by Israel and the Arab countries?
  Mr. Brown: The great thing about it was that when we brought through this Resolution—it was the first time for a long period that a British resolution had got unanimous assent—we also got the acquiescence of both the Arab countries and the Israelis to it, and Dr. Jarring is now operating in the area with both. I think that the best thing we can do at the moment is to wish him very well. I am in touch with both the Arab countries and the Israelis, and have great hopes that he will be able to begin the process of solving this very difficult problem.
  Mr. Will Griffiths: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I would like to add my voice to those who wish to congratulate him and the Government in securing this remarkable unanimity in the Security Council last November? But it is now two months since the United Nations Security Council Resolution was passed, and I understand that the Resolution placed no time limit on Dr. Jarring's mission. The Security Council would doubtless wish that it should not be

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  unduly prolonged, because there is real danger of new hostilities breaking out.
  Mr. Brown: I thank my hon. Friend for what he said. I entirely agree with him about the mission. My view is that time is not on the side of a solution, and the longer we take over this the more difficult things will get. On the other hand, remaining as I do in close touch, I think that for the moment patience is probably the right virtue to preserve.
  Mr. Arnold Shawasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in pursuance of their policy of seeking to secure peace in the Middle East, the British Government will seek to bring about direct talks between Israel and her Arab neighbours.
  Mr. Henigasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to support for direct peace talks between Israel and the Arab States.
  Mr. George Brown: While direct talks between Israel and her Arab neighbours are certainly not to be excluded, Her Majesty's Government have always taken the view that it would be unrealistic and therefore unconstructive, to wait upon them before seeking to make progress towards a settlement.
  Mr. Shaw: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the only possibility of a lasting peace is direct talks between the two parties and that, therefore, it would help if Her Majesty's Government made their position clear in this and did their best to get the two parties together?
  Mr. Brown: This, of course, is one of the most difficult questions that we will ever have to cope with. I have discussed it with Arab statesmen and Arab friends. I discussed it with Mr. Eshkol when he was here last week. It remains my view that the best thing we can do at the moment is to encourage Mr. Jarring in his mission and let the question of direct talks emerge from that. I have no doubt that, in the end, this will have to emerge, but I am pretty sure that if we tried to force that at the beginning, we may very well spoil any chances of a settlement.
  Sir B. Janner: May I ask my right hon. Friend to be realistic? Is it not a fact
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  that on practically all occasions previously two contending parties have come together with a view to settling their differences? Does he not think that by some remarks of his he might encourage a settlement in that way—perhaps under the auspices of the United Nations?
  Mr. Brown: I think that I am being realistic. I believe that the Israeli authorities understand that I am and I am sure that some of the Arab authorities understand that I am. I am sure that at this moment the right thing to do is to encourage the United Nations mission to go on with this work. Let us move step by step.

  UNITED KINGDOM EMBASSIES (COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE)
  Mr. W. O. J. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether agreement has now been reached with the various countries involved for compensation for damage to United Kingdom embassies during the Middle East crisis.
  Mr. William Rodgers: The Governments of Tunisia, Libya, Qatar and Bulgaria have either already paid for the cost of repairing British embassies and other official property in their respective countries or have agreed to do so. Notes reserving our rights to compensation have been sent to the Governments of the Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, the United Arab Republic and Syria.
  Mr. Robinson: Since the latter information was given in another place as long ago as 25th July, may we take it that the Government will take active steps to press their claim to compensation against other Governments?
  Mr. Rodgers: Yes, we shall certainly press this claim. It is very unfortunate that embassies are damaged in this way. It interferes with the whole basis of normal international relationships between States.

  UNITED ARAB REPUBLIC
  Dr. David Owenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made towards the normalisation of relations with the

  21
  United Arab Republic since the exchange of ambassadors.
  Mr. George Brown: I am glad to say that normal diplomatic relations have now been resumed. The re-establishment of embassies in the two capitals has enabled us to renew regular contact on both bilateral and multilateral matters not only to our mutual advantage but giving, valuable opportunities for discussing wider issues.
  Dr. Owen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us strongly support the action of opening diplomatic relations? This has already been vindicated by results. Can my right hon. Friend give us any evidence that anything has been achieved over the question of ships in the Suez Canal?
  Mr. Brown: I do not want to offend against the rules, but I believe that there is a later Question on that subject. I should like to say, however, that relations have also been opened with the Somali Republic, and I believe—and have every reason to hope—that they will shortly he opened with a number of other countries who broke off relations with us at an earlier stage.

  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  Mr. G. Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the latest situation arising from Great Britain's application to join the European Economic Community.
  Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action he now proposes to further the application of the United Kingdom to join the European Economic Community.
  Mr. George Brown: I have nothing to add to my statement in the House on 20th December.—[Vol. 756, c. 1267–9.]
  Mr. Campbell: What is the Government's attitude to the recently reported proposals from the German Government, and also the proposals put forward by the Benelux countries?
  Mr. Brown: I have just been to Bonn and have discussed with the German
  22
  Government their thinking and ours. I would prefer not to go into the matter any further today. As for the Benelux proposals, I have only just received them and am now studying them.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention to parliamentary opinion, which is overwhelmingly in favour of closer association between Western Europe and this country, as shown by the Declaration of Paris, representing 90 per cent. of the electorate of Western Europe?
  Mr. Brown: Yes, but one has to decide what one means by "closer association".
  Mr. Jennings: Is the Government investigating any further the question of amalgamation with other nations, in view of the proposed entry into the Common Market failing? Has he considered the question of what is to happen after? Will he tell us whether he is investigating such a position?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member is my political neighbour on whom I have some designs. The question of amalgamation with neighbouring powers occasionally enters my mind, but in the sense in which the hon. Member puts the question, the answer is "No".

  SOUTH YEMEN
  Mr. G. Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on Great Britain's relations with the new People's Republic of South Yemen.
  Mr. George Brown: Her Majesty's Ambassador, Mr. R. W. J. Hooper, arrived in Aden at the beginning of this month and has presented his credentials to the President of the People's Republic of Southern Yemen. Our relations with Southern Yemen are normal and friendly and we naturally hope that they will continue so.
  Mr. Campbell: I should like to wish Mr. Hooper all good fortune in his mission, but have negotiations yet started concerning possible economic aid from Britain after the present six months, and will Parliament be kept closely informed?
  Mr. Brown: Yes, of course Parliament will. The answer to the first part of the supplementary question is "No".
  Mr. Colin Jackson: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House what is the security of British subjects in this territory, and can he further tell the House whether the refinery is continuing to operate satisfactorily?
  Mr. Brown: The answer to the first part of that question is "Yes" and the answer to the second part is also "Yes, quite satisfactorily".
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I could not quite hear what the right hon. Gentleman said. Did he say that the answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question was "No"? If so, does he recognise that a great deal of the first six months under which the promised £12 million in aid to the South Yemen has gone and that it is therefore necessary to get on with the question of deciding how much aid to give in the future? Will he recognise—as he has said—that while we are hard put to it to find any money to protect our own interests £12 million is a very high figure?
  Mr. Brown: I know the right hon. Gentleman's preoccupation with this question. The answer that I gave is factually correct; we have not been asked nor have we ourselves started to think about anything beyond that period.
  Mr. Mayhew: Are there any signs that South Yemen is being swallowed up by President Nasser, in accordance with the predictions of the right hon. Gentleman opposite?
  Mr. Brown: I think that the contrary is the case.
  Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations he is now holding with the People's Republic of South Yemen about the payment of aid to that country in the second half of 1968.
  Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what financial agreement has been reached with the Government of South Arabia.
  Mr. George Brown: None, Sir.
  Mr. Goodhart: As we have had to abandon Commitments to our friends
  24
  because of poverty, would it not be folly to hand over further large sums of money to a Government which climbed to power over British bodies and which threatens subversion in the Persian Gulf?
  Mr. Brown: I certainly do not accept the latter part of that question. If the hon. Member gets rid of his prejudices and looks at what is happening in the area he will see how wise we were to reverse his right hon. Friend's policy. The answer to the Question, as I told the right hon. Gentleman earlier, is that we are not for the moment engaged on such negotiation.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: Are the local authorities of the South Yemen likely to co-operate with British interests once this aid is withdrawn?
  Mr. Brown: I am not quite sure what is meant by the question of aid being withdrawn. We have agreed to carry over for a period, and we are doing that. What is very clear is that we have commercial interests there. They are operating. I very strongly urge right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite who purport to be very concerned about our commercial interests that they should encourage this newly independent Government to co-operate with us and should not make these snide remarks about them.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that the South Yemen Government have made an offer to the Russians that they should have a base in Aden. That is public property. He will recognise that, as I said just now, we are very short of money for our own purposes in the Persian Gulf. Ought he not in the interests of this country to open negotiations, I do not say to cut the £12 million to nothing but at least to reduce it, so that the South Yemen in future can rely more on the help of neighbours than on the help of Great Britain?
  Mr. Brown: I could not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman more and I shall be very happy to debate that with him later this week. When he says that it is public property, he simply means that it has appeared in some newspaper. We have, as he well knows, and as friends of his and mine have recently told him, considerable commercial interests in

  25
  that area. I simply do not think that he is doing them any good by the kind of remarks which he is making.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Does not my right hon. Friend think that the most contemptible basis for a foreign policy is spite and that that is all that we have had from hon. Members opposite in their attitude to this new country?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that he told Parliament that he would review this £12 million in six months? All that I am asking is that he should do so and come before Parliament with a recommendation. I suspect that he would come to Parliament with a recommendation for a reduction.
  Mr. Brown: Let us leave this for debate. All I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do is to recognise that this is a new independent Government in an area where it is in our interests to encourage them. I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman is doing that from the Opposition Front Bench, but I know that he would be doing it if he were sitting on this Bench.

  SPAIN (GIBRALTAR)
  Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what discussions have recently taken place or are planned with Spain over Gibraltar.
  Mr. George Jegerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the talks with Spain about Gibraltar.
  Mr. William Rodgers: On 1st December, 1967, we agreed to a Spanish suggestion that the opening of talks on Anglo-Spanish relations, including the question of Gibraltar, should be postponed until the New Year. The actual date for the opening of the talks has not yet been settled.
  Mr. Wall: Since we have let down Britain's friends in the Middle and Far East recently, what assurance will be given to the Government of Gibraltar that we intend to back her people against Spain? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Gibraltar has been very patient and now wants positive action taken against the Spanish blockade?
  Mr. Rodgers: Without for a moment accepting the hon. Gentleman's assumptions, I would say that we have already made clear exactly where we stand on the question of sovereignty, but I think that the House will agree that the people of Gibraltar are living in difficult circumstances and that it is wise to talk about this issue, among others, with Spain if we can alleviate their condition in any way.
  Mr. Jeger: Has my hon. Friend any guarantee that the talks with Spain will result in any alleviation of Gibraltar's position? Is he not aware that the anti-British and anti-Gibraltar propaganda between the talks taking place gets stiffened by the Spanish Government and that they do not halt it?
  Mr. Rodgers: It is very seldom that one can guarantee before beginning talks that they will be successful, but this is no reason for not engaging in them, particularly when we have made clear the limitations of the discussions.
  Sir J. Rodgers: Would it not be in the interests of the Gibraltarians themselves if talks were initiated again between Spain and ourselves on this Gibraltar question and some compromise solution considered, rather than things being allowed to drift as they are at the moment?
  Mr. Rodgers: I do not think that we should talk at the moment of compromise. However, I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that talking is a sensible and, as we hope it will turn out, a constructive course to follow.
  Mr. Winnick: Why do not we tell all concerned that the people of Gibraltar have made up their minds through the normal democratic machinery—if they understand what that means—and that that is simply the end of the matter?
  Mr. Rodgers: Because most of us on this side, and often on the other, believe that talking and trying to deal reasonably with Governments is always the best policy, whatever the circumstances and whatever the Governments may be.
  Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations were made to the Spanish Government about the Spanish warships which lay off Gibraltar.
  Mr. William Rodgers: None, Sir. The Spanish warships which have been anchored off Gibraltar in recent weeks have not interfered with shipping or infringed local regulations.
  Mr. Digby: As the Government do not react to these things, how can we hope to convince the Spanish authorities that the Government will not falter over Gibraltar as they have faltered in other directions?
  Mr. Rodgers: If Spanish warships did not comply with local regulations then, of course, we should take the necessary action.

  INDONESIA
  Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress he has made in his discussions with the Indonesian Government regarding compensation for British assets seized in Indonesia.
  Mr. William Rodgers: I understand that good progress is being maintained in the negotiations between the individual British companies concerned and the Indonesian Government. Most companies are seeking to negotiate agreements for the return of their properties rather than for the payment of compensation. Her Majesty's Government are helping whenever required.
  Taylor: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the sums involved are considerable—about £200 million—that the negotiations have been marked by intolerable delays and that, in many cases, Her Majesty's Government's letters have not been acknowledged or answered? Does the hon. Gentleman see a satisfactory solution emerging in the near future?
  Mr. Rodgers: I do not think that there have been intolerable delays, although I understand the impatience of companies which must negotiate these difficult and and often complex deals. It is significant that already there have been agreements on the resumption of operations between a number of firms. We are satisfied that progress is being made, but we will certainly push as hard as we can.

  SUEZ CANAL
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in his discussions with other interested States about the means of ending the loss and damage suffered by the economies of this and other countries resulting from the continued unlawful closure of the Suez Canal, he has treated the consent of the United Arab Republic as a necessary precondition to the reopening of this international waterway.
  Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress he has made in his efforts to secure the re-opening of the Suez Canal.
  Mr. George Brown: The Special Representative of the United Nations Secretary-General is engaged on the task laid upon him by the Security Council Resolution of 22nd November. In appointing him U Thant asked Governments to give him their full co-operation; of course he has ours. Until Mr. Jarring has reported to the Secretary-General it would be wrong for me to say anything that might be construed as prejudicing his mission.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: While appreciating the limitations on the right hon. Gentleman, may I ask whether it is not a fact that Egypt's refusal to clear the Canal or allow it to be cleared involves a breach of her international obligations? Would he at least assure the House that action to clear the Canal will be taken before it is irretrievably silted up?
  Mr. Brown: It is for the right hon. Gentleman to take authority and responsibility for his own remarks. On the whole, knowing as I do what is happening, I would rather not be drawn into that debate.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action he now proposes to take to secure the release of the British ships detained in the Bitter Lakes.
  Mr. Will Griffithsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a further statement about the British ships at present immobilised in the Suez Canal; and what proposals have now been made by Her Majesty's Government to the Government of Egypt to secure their release.
  Mr. George Brown: We are in constant touch with the United Arab Republic authorities over this. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Cairo has now been given the programme for survey work in the Canal which has also been handed to General Odd Bull. I hope that this will lead to the release of the in the reasonably near future.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: How long would the work to clear the southern end of the Canal take once it was allowed to start? Will the right hon. Gentleman use all his influence to secure that that work is set on foot at once and the ordeal of these crews and relief crews, for whom we all feel the greatest admiration, brought to an end?
  Mr. Brown: I am not sure about the ordeal of the crews and relief crews. I am in close touch with them. Of course, I am using all the influence I have to get the ships out. Whether they will come out by the southern or the northern end has still to be resolved, but I have great hopes that they will be out in the reasonably near future.

  SEA BED
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieuasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to bring the seabed beyond the continental shelf into the ownership and control of the United Nations.
  Mr. Mulley: After a discussion of these complex issues at the General Assembly last December, the United Nations set up an ad hoc Committee to study the peaceful uses of the seabed. We expect to take an active part in this work.
  Mr. Mallalieu: Have any proposals yet been made to this committee by Her Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Mulley: We welcome the Maltese initiative in raising this, and we cosponsored the resolution which led to the setting up of the committee. However, since this was done only just before Christmas, it is too early yet to expect any progress within the committee.

  SOUTH AFRICA (SUPPLY OF ARMS)
  Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of Suite for Foreign Affairs what representations he has had about modifica
  30
  tions to the arms ban on South Africa; and what reply he has sent.
  Mr. George Brown: I have nothing to add to the statement made to the House by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 18th December—[Vol. 756, c. 926]—and the speech made by my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State on 19th December.—[Vol. 756, c. 1152–8.]
  Mr. Wall: Was any hint given to the South African authorities that the arms ban would be re-examined in 1968? How many jobs have been lost through the revolt of the Left-wing, which prevented this re-examination?
  Mr. Brown: I do not think that the second part of the question arises at all. The South Africans know that they are quite free to buy things here, but we, like everybody else, are bound—if we recognise any moral obligations at all—to observe the resolutions of the United Nations, for which, if I might remind the hon. Gentleman his Government voted.
  Mr. Maclennan: Would my right hon. Friend include in any replies which he may consider sending to the South African Government the strongest representation about the present trial of 25 South-West Africans there and express the repugnance of the whole of this country to this monstrous travesty of justice and denial of human rights?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recollect that our representative at the United Nations was specifically instructed by the last Government to exempt arms for the external defence of the sea routes of South Africa? Was that not a wise precaution and does he not agree that, with this lifeline to Europe now coming around the Cape of Good Hope, we should take precautions to protect it in all circumstances against interference?
  Mr. Brown: My predecessor, the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great admiration, managed on that occasion to face both ways at once, which is something which I cannot do.
  Mr. Orme: What evidence has my right hon. Friend that the Opposition and leading businessmen in this country are reassuring the South Africans that they

  31
  would resume negotiations and arms sales to them? Would he deprecate such action in this matter?
  Mr. Brown: As I see no chance of this Government going out of office, I do not see how the question arises.

  BAHRAIN (UNITED STATES SHIPS)
  Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, and under what treaty, two United States destroyers and a tender are stationed at Bahrain as their home port.
  Mr. William Rodgers: There are no United States destroyers stationed at Bahrain. The only United States naval ship stationed there is a tender, the flagship of the Commander, Middle East Force, United States Navy. By agreement with the Ruler of Bahrain the headquarters of this force has been at Bahrain since 1959.
  Mr. Allaun: Since the ships certainly have been there and since we are spending £12 million this year on military installations alone in Bahrain, are we not entitled to ask the Americans for a substantial financial contribution?
  Mr. Rodgers: We have made clear what our attitude is to our continued presence in the Gulf. It is for the Americans to decide what rôle they wish to perform.

CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL (SECOND READING DEBATES)
Speaker: I wish to make a brief statement, which may be helpful to the House, about the procedure for debates on the Second Reading of Consolidated Fund Bills.
As I promised, I have been giving careful thought to the question of the order of speakers and subjects when we have debates on the Second Reading of Consolidated Fund Bills, which I realise are precious occasions for back benchers. The House will remember that the method of "first come first served" led to some confusion last Session—and, in any case, means queuing up outside my office before whatever time we fix for the receiving of names and topics.
32
I have been consulting hon. Members about this question and I gather that the best and fairest method of determining priorities in these debates would be by ballot. I understand that, by and large, this commends itself to the House.
I would suggest therefore the following: at any time from the announcement, in the Business of the House, of the date of the debate, and up to 10 o'clock in the morning on the day before the debate takes place, hon. Members would hand in to my office their names and the topics that they would wish to raise. The ballot would be for name plus topic, and not just name. Any one hon. Member would hand in only his name and his own topic.
The ballot would take place on the morning of the day before the debate and a list giving the order of names as they came out of the ballot, together with subjects, would be posted, as usual, in the "No" Lobby as early as practicable thereafter. Other hon. Members would be able, as is the present practice, to speak in the debate on the topics which interested them. I think that this would help hon. Members, would avoid ambiguity, and would avoid hon. Members having either to queue at or rush to my office once the date of the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill had been announced.
Perhaps I should take the opportunity of reminding the House that the first Consolidated Fund Bill of the year, which embraces Supplementary Estimates only and not the whole field of administration, is of limited scope and that topics raised in that debate must be within the scope of those Supplementary Estimates.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: On a point of order. While I feel sure that the House will be grateful for the very careful consideration which you have obviously given to the representations which have been made to you, Mr. Speaker, you mentioned that you had consultations with some hon. Members on this matter. That being so, might I ask if you have considered, in making this statement, this point, which I believe to be of great importance: that when we proceed on the basis of a ballot the element of chance is greatly increased, whereas, in the past, when we have submitted to the Speaker of the day a subject which we thought

33
to be important, the final decision has always rested with the wisdom of the Speaker himself, as well as the order in which subjects are taken?
In the light of the statement which you have made today, can you say whether, in fact, it will still be possible for us to rely on Mr. Speaker's wisdom as to the order in which subjects are to be taken?
Mr. Speaker: I must clear up a misconception in the hon. Gentleman's mind. What we are substituting is merely a 'allot in place of the chronological order f acceptance of subjects. The House has never given Mr. Speaker the power of arranging, in order of priority, the subjects which hon. Members wish to raise on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. Indeed, it is a power which Mr. Speaker would not want. I believe that it might derogate from the power of back benchers to raise their own subjects.
What we have to decide is whether we allow the priorities to be fixed by either the method of the order in which the office is notified, which led to confusion the last time, or by pure chance. From what I have gathered as a result of talking to many hon. Members, what I have suggested seems to be the fairest method.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Further to my point of order. While thanking you for clarifying the position, Sir, may I ask you to clarify one further point? Does this mean, then, that it will still be possible for a considerable number of hon. Members to ballot for the same subject; that the new procedure will not in any way prevent those hon. Members—who may be very numerous—who are particularly interested in one subject from having time allotted commensurate with the interest that is being shown?
Mr. Speaker: Nothing in the proposals would prevent any hon. Member from seeking to raise any topic which he wished to raise, and which was in order, on Second Reading, even if other hon. Members wished to raise the same topic.
Mr. William Hamilton: On a point of order. I welcome your statement in principle, Mr. Speaker, but, for clarification—since you said that hon. Members had been consulted—can you give some details about how hon. Members were
34
consulted? I was not consulted. I think that it might have been better for the House to have had a short debate and for there to have been a free vote of the House so that the issue could have been decided one way or the other.
Mr. Speaker: I wish to make it perfectly clear, first of all, that there is nothing in what I have said which would prevent the House, if it so decided, from having a free debate on the suggestion I have made. It would, of course, be manifestly impossible for Mr. Speaker, with the best will in the world, to consult every hon. Member; and I regret that I did not consult the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. William Hamilton: Could you say who was consulted, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: It would be otiose for Mr. Speaker to attempt to do that.
Mr. Shinwell: Lest there might be some misunderstanding, could you make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that no Privy Councillor was consulted? I was not consulted.
Mr. Speaker: I do not intend to enter into a discussion on the vexed subject of Privy Councillors as distinct from other hon. Members.
Mr. Ronald Bell: On a point of order, and for clarification, is your statement on this a comprehensive one, Mr. Speaker, so that it takes up the whole of the time alloted for the debate on Second Reading, or are you proposing only that the first few hours, or whatever the time might be, should be decided by ballot?
Mr. Speaker: The whole of the debate on Second Reading. It is substituting the ballot for priority fixed by the time an hon. Member went to Mr. Speaker's office. Let me be frank about this. Varying points of view have been put to me and what I have put to the House is what I have gathered to be—to use an unfortunately hackneyed phrase—the consensus of opinion among many hon. Members. It is for the House to decide whether or not to accept what Mr. Speaker has suggested; or to follow, for example, the suggestion of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) to debate the issue. That is

35
not a matter for Mr. Speaker. It is a matter for Members who are much more powerful than the occupant of the Chair.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Crossman.]

EDUCATION BILL [Lords]
Referred to a Second Reading Cornmittee.—[Mr. Crossman.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [6TH ALLOTTED DAY],—considered.
CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1967–68
  CLASS IV, VOTE 2

    TRANSPORT BOARDS
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a Revised Supplementary sum, not exceeding £30,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the expenditure of the Ministry of Transport in grant to the British Railways Board, the London Transport Board and the British Waterways Board in respect of deficits on their revenue accounts.—[Mr. John Morris.]
    3.40 p.m.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: During the short time that I have been in the House, Supply days have been used, by and large, to discuss other items. We have taken that opportunity to discuss matters of very real and relevant significance for the country's future. On this occasion, however, we have decided to use the time, as it was originally intended, to discuss Supply. I believe that there is no more important or vital aspect of our present position than the economic crisis, and a Supplementary Estimate of the order of £30 million is quite clearly a matter of great significance.
    The total amount referred to in the Vote is £168 million, which is an increase of £30 million. When in June, 1967, we discussed the British Railways deficit of £153 million which makes up almost all this amount, several hon. Members on this side expressed alarm at what was taking place; at the sheer size of a deficit of £153 million; and, more important, at the fact that the Government appeared to be making no significant changes of policy which could reduce the amount. Sadly, our worst fears have been realised and, once again, we find ourselves with an enormous deficit. The plain fact is

    37
    that the British Railways deficit is now assuming the dimensions of a national disaster.
    We have to consider that recently we hive been discussing a policy to reintroduce prescription charges which involved a great deal of controversy and trouble, and was related to a sum of £25 million. We have to consider the very real alarm and misery which will stem from the Government's decision to reduce expenditure on Scottish housing by £7 million over a period of two years, which is only one-fourteenth of the amount of this year's railway deficit. We have to consider the dangers to our national security and to our substantial assets east of Suez because of a recent Government decision in that regard; and that all our defence capability there could have been continued in the 'eighties, and not the 'seventies, if we were able to take the amount represented by just one year of the deficit.
    Consideration of all those aspects gives some idea of the amount of money of which we are now speaking. The fact is that this year's deficit is equivalent to 5s. per week every week for the average family. In effect, what we are doing is paying an extra insurance stamp of 5s. every week just because of the deficit.
    We on this side are not in any way trying to suggest that the elimination of the deficit is easy: on the other hand, when hon. Members opposite and people outside talk about the social consequences of action on the railways we should also remember the importance in social priority of a sum of over £150 million. It is a very substantial amount. We therefore believe that at a time of economic stringency, at a time when the Government are very carefully scrutinising all items of expenditure, when nothing is sacrosanct and sacred cows no longer exist, we should look very carefully at the deficit relating to this Supplementary Estimate and at all aspects of our policy.
    The importance of the amount is not just a question of money. In our debate on 26th June last, I was very impressed by the speech of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel), who often speaks in our railway debates. On that occasion he made a very sensible and important statement. The hon. Gentleman then said:
    38
    "The railwaymen would be jubilant if they managed a substantial reduction in the deficit. It would give them greater heart and give greater impetus to the success of British Railways than anything else."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th June, 1967; Vol. 749, c. 135.]
    That is absolutely true. The existence of a substantial deficit has a very devastating effect on the morale of railwaymen. The one real asset the railways have are the men who work on them. There could be no greater body of people so committed heart and soul to the future of this great industry.
    We shall have to ask many questions about this Supplementary Estimate, and I hope that the Minister will answer them fully. The first and obvious one must be why there has been such a very substantial error in calculations, and what steps are being taken to prevent this happening in the future. We often have under-estimates—our debates in recent years have seen several examples in which the overspending of money has caused major controversy—but we now have a major overspending of £30 million in one year, and when we have such a major difference without any significant changes of policy taking place in between questions must be asked.
    These are not just my own fears. The Estimates Committee, when considering a memorandum submitted by British Railways only a few weeks ago, pointed out in a Report published in December that it was very alarmed. In page 7 of its Report we read:
    "Your Committee feel bound to point out that Supplementary Estimates for the British Railways Board are becoming a regular occurrence. Apart from the disturbing picture this presents of the failure of the railways to pay their way"—
    that is obvious—
    "there appears to be a continuing inability on the part of those concerned to make accurate estimates. For example, in their Eighth Report for Session 1966–67 the Estimates Committee reported to the House an increased deficit for the British Railways Board, due largely to a loss of freight receipts caused by the economic climate. This is virtually an identical account to that which Your Committee are now reporting. While accepting that the present economic situation was difficult to forecast, Your Committee consider that the British Railways Board should have been able, as a result of their experience last year, to make their estimates for the current year more realistic."
    That is a very carefully worded and very sensible comment. We might not

    39
    think such a major mistake so disastrous if it had not happened before, but, as the Committee points out, we now have exactly the same question arising and exactly the same explanation given, though the same sort of disaster has happened in a previous year.
    Our first question, therefore, is: what steps are the Government taking to make sure that this will not happen again? When the Government are thinking in terms of very tight budgeting and of trying to work out amounts to the nearest £1 million in so many social spheres, we must know what steps they intend to take to make sure that a mistake of £30 million will not occur again. The Government's answer to that question is one in which every hon. Member and every taxpayer will have a very real interest.
    The second question that we on this side are entitled to ask is whether the Government consider that this is a matter that will not arise again, but that there will be an improvement in the financial position of British Railways. When we recall that my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) pointed out in our June debate that we have made a capital investment of £1,200 million in British Railways over the last 10 years, it seems incomprehensible that we should have a deficit which has been growing under this Government and which, looking to the immediate future, appears likely to continue to grow.
    It is worrying if we take into account the reasons given by the British Railways Board in statements to the Estimates Committee. All the reasons given for this Supplementary Estimate and the size of the deficit would appear to be factors which are not improving, but are getting worse. We look at the four essential reasons which British Railways gave in the statement, contained in Appendix 2 of the Report on pages 44 and 45. The first reason was an absence of upturn in the level of economic activity.
    Do hon. Members on either side of the House, having heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers including the Prime Minister speaking in recent debates, consider that this factor will disappear as a result of the Government's economic policies? The slashing of Government expenditure and the
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    further dampening measures on the economy which we all know are to come, but we do not know exactly when they will come, will unquestionably have a serious effect on the level of economic activity.
    I well remember listening to speeches by hon. Members opposite in which they said that it was possible to have a growth rate not of 5 per cent. such as we had in the last two years of Conservative Government, but of 6 per cent. by investment programmes. Then we had the National Plan, which suggested 4 per cent., and later the former Chancellor spoke of 3 per cent. Under the present Government the economy has hardly grown at all. On average, it has been a growth of 1 per cent. and the prospect for the future is that things will get worse. Do the Government estimate an improvement in this factor in the immediate future? I cannot see a remarkable upturn in economic activity. We must discount this factor when we are looking for an improvement.
    The second reason given to the Estimates Committee was that coal traffic has been hit. Hon. Members opposite are constantly reminding us that the future of the coal industry is not so bright as it once was. This is a vital factor for British Railways. As the Minister pointed out on 26th June, one-third of the freight receipts come from coal and about 90 per cent. of the freight total comes from coal and steel. Can we look for an improvement here? In all previous debates on the railways we have had the unknown factor of a White Paper on Fuel Policy, but this is now available. Despite devaluation, it seems that it will be the basis of fuel estimates at least over the next five years.
    The White Paper tells us that the amount of coal required between now and 1970 will fall by about 20 million tons per year. Here is another factor in which the coal industry is heading for a rapid contraction and this unquestionably will have a very considerable effect on British Railways. This was given as a reason for decline. The Supplementary Estimate this year and looking to the immediate future makes it a factor which can only deteriorate. Every estimate made by this Government about the amount of coal which would be required and consumed has, unfortunately,

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    proved over-pessimistic. If we have the suggestion of a 20 million ton reduction over the next few years, it might be more serious. We can see no sign of improvement here. The third reason was that iron and steel has been seriously affected by the recession. I suggest that the recession will not disappear. From the meagre reports by the British Steel Corporation now that the industry is under public ownership, there seems no immediate prospect of a considerable improvement in the iron and steel industry. To that extent the Government cannot look for much progress.
    The fourth factor, a smaller one in total, is the question of industrial stoppages and disputes. It was pointed out to the Committee that £2 million had been taken up by disputes over freight terminals and also the dock strike and the A.S.L.E.F. strike. Although we have been given an assurance that industrial relations would flourish under the present Government, I think that it was right of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester to point out in a recent speech that industrial relations on British Railways are not flourishing and morale is perhaps at an all-time low.
    In all this tale of gloom presented to the Estimates Committee, there was one hopeful factor. It was the statement that freightliner business had been improving and the amount received from it in one particular case had been an underestimate. We on this side of the House have consistently pointed out that the whole freightliner network, planned and financed by the previous Government, offers an enormous potential for British Railways. Is it not a tragedy that tomorrow in Standing Committee we shall be starting proceedings on the Transport Bill which will take away from British Railways total control of the freightliner system, which is the one real growth factor? We can see on the basis of present Government policy no wonderful improvement in the situation; in fact, we see it getting worse.
    When we have a deficit of £150 million, when we see the situation getting worse at a time of economic stringency this is a matter of very real concern for every Minister, for the Cabinet, for every hon. Member and for every taxpayer. When he was speaking of the problem in the debate on 26th June, the Parliamen-
    42
    tary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport pointed out that there were two essential tasks. He said that the first was a question of accountancy and how to look at the figures. The second was a question of remedying the underlying causes. There is no question that on looking at the accountancy the Minister has kept his promise, because in the Committee tomorrow we shall be starting on a remarkable Bill which will change round the accounts of British Railways very considerably.
    The best summary of this new situation was given in the magazine Modern Railways, in the January issue, by Mr. Fiennes, who is known to the Minister. The heading was:
    "They have shuffled the deficit under the rug."
    This is the whole basis of the policy which the Government are bringing forward under the Bill. They are changing the figures round. Instead of a deficit it will be called a loan or a grant.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Morris): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wonder how far we can pursue the matter of legislation in this debate. There will be an opportunity in Committee in the next few weeks. I am concerned about, whether it can be discussed now.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): In this debate hon. Members are entitled to discuss the Supplementary Estimates and anything which reasonably arises from the Estimates.
    Mr. Taylor: I am well aware that these are facts which the Parliamentary Secretary does not want to hear and matters which he does not want to have ventilated in the House. If he cannot see the relevance to the estimates of what I have been saying, the future of British Railways is much more gloomy than we thought.
    This matter is uniquely relevant to the question of the Supplementary Estimates and what the Government intend to do about the problem. Not only do we consider it directly relevant to this debate, but I hope that the Minister will reply to it. If he is to shelter behind a question of order to avoid answering questions, we shall take the strongest exception.

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    The hon. Gentleman said that, first, we had to get accounting right; he is doing that by shuffling the deficit under the rug. What about the second thing he would do to remedy underlying causes of the British Railways' deficit? This is something we have not seen happening. All that has happened has been talk about new grants, loans and subsidies. There has been nothing about the fundamental weaknesses and causes of this trouble. Instead of taking no action, which would have been preferable in present circumstances, the Government have been taking actions which we believe to be entirely wrong.
    How are we to get rid of Supplementary Estimates such as this and of the British Railways' deficit? One way which the Minister suggested was by getting at underlying causes. There is another way; that is, to ruin those in competition and to try to make life so difficult for them to compete with British Railways that the deficit may be reduced by forcing traffic on to the railways. I look at the history of previous Budgets tax pressures, the £350 million annual extra tax put on road users and present plans for further taxes of £40 million on road users. It might seem to those looking at the Supplementary Estimates that this is what the Government have in mind—that they are trying to solve the problems of the railways by making life impossible and uneconomic for those who compete with them. This is the wrong course of action and one that we shall bitterly oppose.
    The National Plan, the most unique contribution by the Government to the wastepaper drive, surprisingly enough had some useful things to say about British Railways, the deficit and the Supplementary Estimates that we are considering. It suggested that the railways working investment might be eliminated by 1970 if certain things were done—if there was substantial progress in implementing the closure proposals, if a start was made on the process of concentrating on selected trunk routes and if there was co-operation with the unions in increasing productivity and on the question of train manning. We believed that it was a sensible policy and could have been achieved.
    But there was a fourth factor at the foot of the page, one which the people who drew up the National Plan con
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    sidered uniquely relevant, the question of investment. They said that they believed that investment should be £135 million annually looking over the next few years, and that this would not be an enormous increase against the vast sums which were spent on investment in the railways by a previous Government.
    I put a third question to the Minister on the question of these Supplementary Estimates. Does he see any hope of Estimates like these not being brought before the House without a substantial programme of real investment in British Railways? The fact is that although the Government apparently have millions of pounds to spend on all kinds of nationalisation in the field of transport, when it comes to investment I believe that they have been starving the railways of much-needed investment which could lead to the kind of policies and service which could eliminate deficits and prevent this kind of Supplementary Estimate coming before us.
    I remember the Minister of Transport speaking about this crucial factor of modernisation which is vital for providing morale. At the conference of N.U.R. branch secretaries in June last year she said:
    "The railways have been the cinderellas of transport for a long time now. I cannot wave a magic wand and produce a glass coach or a golden crown for railwaymen."
    In the Second Reading debate I pointed out that the Minister had selected the framework of a glass coach, but, unfortunately, through weakness and obsession with ideology, had succeeded, where Prince Charming failed, in transforming the embryo glass coach into a pumpkin. We can see this happening no more relevantly than in the field of investment.
    The National Plan said on page 129 that £135 million of investment was considered in real terms to be the basis of the future. What has happened?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman was right in saying that he is entitled, in considering the Supplementary Estimates, to deal, if he thinks it proper, with any matters that may involve legislation, but it does not seem to me that in dealing with the Supplementary Estimates one can deal with the question of investment.
    Mr. Taylor: I can appreciate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that at this point it might appear that I was going away from the subject.
    I was trying to point out that one of the reasons, I believe, for our having this Supplementary Estimate is a reduction which the Government made in the investment programme, and I am anxious that they should take steps to stop future Supplementary Estimates of this kind. We have recently had word of a further reduction in investment. It was that sole point that I was hoping to make, and also to give figures.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: We cannot deal with hypothetical questions about possible future Supplementary Estimates. We can deal only with the Supplementary Estimate before us.
    Mr. John Peyton: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I ask for your guidance. The House of Commons is faced with a disaster, that it should be asked to provide another £30 million on top of the already very large estimated deficit. The House would surely, I submit, be grossly negligent in its duty if it did not ask for assurances from Ministers that this will not happen again. We are not here just to put a rubber stamp on a disgraceful state of affairs. We are here also to ask for remedies.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: There are obviously some limits to what the House can discuss in debating the Winter Supplementary Estimates. As I understand the position, the House is entitled to discuss whether this Supplementary Estimate for £30 million is justified or not and whether the House should approve it or not. In considering that, it is possible to discuss whether any legislation is desirable or not. However, I do not think that we can discuss hypothetical questions as to whether future Supplementary Estimates may or may not be put forward as a result of the Government's present policy. We must confine this debate to whether the House should approve or disapprove the recommendation by the Government for a Supplementary Estimate of £30 million.
    Mr. Peyton: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am very
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    sorry to have to pursue the matter. [Interruption.] Perhaps it would be better if the Joint Parliamentary Secretary were in the Chair. My point—it comes very much out of what you have just said, Mr. Deputy Speaker—is that we are dealing with this present Supplementary Estimate and the House has to decide whether to support it or vote against it.
    For my part—I do not know about my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench—I would willingly vote against the Supplementary Estimate unless the Government are able to adduce arguments to show that this disgraceful state of affairs will not be repeated. It is very much upon that that I seek your guidance.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Obviously, the Chair has to be reasonable in allowing limits of debate on Supplementary Estimates, and I will do my best in that regard. I think that we have to be careful not to go very much wider than the question whether this particular Supplementary Estimate is desirable or not. Within certain limits it is permissible, in my view, for the hon. Member to ask what the consequences of this Supplementary Estimate might be, but not to any great length.
    Mr. Taylor: I am extremely grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This has been due to my inexperience in the House and on the Opposition Front Bench. It is such a wide subject, on which we feel so strongly, that we are inclined to go outside the limit. However, I will keep strictly to what you have suggested.
    I believe that one of the reasons for the Supplementary Estimate was the cutting of the British Railways' capital investment during the year that we are considering, which I believe has reduced the competitiveness of the railways. When we consider that the 1967 Estimate was £104 million and that in July, 1966, the capital expenditure was reduced by £14 million, I suggest that this was directly relevant.
    What attitude should we take? We might be prepared to say that a mistake was made, but we would forget about it and approve the Vote were it not for the feeling that we have that exactly the same thing is being done again. Written Answers were given on 20th December last, particularly in column 414, showing

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    that the electrification of the Crewe to Glasgow line is being indefinitely postponed by the Minister. We on this side believe that one of the basic factors accounting for the Supplementary Estimate was the postponement of modernisation schemes. Looking to the future, we are given no confidence when we see exactly the same thing being done again.
    Mr. Archie Manuel: The hon. Gentleman talks about "the Estimate", but these Estimates are from three Boards. He talked scathingly about the Railways Board. Has he studied the position of the Waterways Board?
    Mr. Taylor: I have studied the position of the Waterways Board in some detail. Having taken half an hour to deal with one aspect of this matter, I am inclined not to go greatly into the details of the position of the Waterways Board. We have, however, looked into the matter in some detail, and I hope that some of my hon. Friends with special, interests in British Waterways will put forward our arguments.
    I understand that, as a result of actions which have been taken, investment in the current year will be about £100 million, which, unfortunately, is a substantial decline on what we have had recently. This is not the kind of policy which we should be adopting. It is not the kind of plan we need to modernise British Railways and give them a real future. I am afraid that many of the amounts contained in the Supplementary Estimates are due to the varied activities of British Railways, some of which are not really relevant to the running of a railway, and have diverted necessary management technique and interest away from the basic and essential job of running trains.
    We see in the Report to the Estimates Committee that the surplus on British Railways' hotels was only £700,000, compared with a budgeted £1 million. This is very unfortunate when we consider that the amount of profit made on the British Railways' catering services shows a return of less than 1 per cent. on capital investment invested. This was given as one of the side reasons for these Supplementary Estimates. This raises the question: is it sensible or reasonable in a major industry like this for the
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    Government to divert so much of the activities of management into so many areas which could probably be more effectively operated by people outwith the railway industry?
    There is scope for diversification of management and ownership in this direction. If the Government were to come forward with sensible policies which would create capital by disposing of certain of these assets, or allowing private participation of capital in these ventures, we might have far more hope for the future, and the kind of difficulties we have had might not reappear. Can the Government tell us if they have any plans for the disposal of property by British Railways and what relationship such policies have to the production of these Supplementary Estimates? We see from the Report to the Estimates Committee a considerable excess on the sales of surplus property. There is far more scope in this direction and we hope that there is a great future here.
    There is no question but that morale has a very real influence on the profitability of any industry. I would be interested to hear from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary the extent to which he felt that morale, particularly among management, was connected with the production of such substantial Supplementary Estimates. My hon. Friend and right hon. Friends have consistently pointed out the great importance of management morale to the whole success of British Railways.
    When we look back over the last year the tragedy is that the Government's policy on management, particularly top management, is shown to be almost scandalous. We now have a Chairman of British Railways in whom all hon. Members have very real confidence, a man who has made an enormous contribution to the industry. What is disastrous is that his whole authority within the railways should have been adversely affected by the scandalous series of events leading up to his appointment. It was a situation in which the job appears to have been hawked round the City of London and we finally ended up by refusing to pay this man the rate for the job.
    We certainly cannot hope to overcome management problems and attract forward-looking and progressive people into

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    the industry so long as this is the Government's policy. No one cares more about management in British Railways than the former Chairman, Sir Stanley Raymond, who made a major contribution to British Railways. I was interested to read one of his recent speeches, made on 6th December, 1967, when he was talking on leadership in a changing world. He referred to the fact that if he had made any lasting contribution to the transport industry it was the British Transport Staff College at Woking, which has already had about 600 potential managers through its 13-week intensive course.
    Those of us who know of this college have the highest confidence in it. It would be interesting to know what the Government's future policy on management will be and, what is more important, what has happened to the 600 men who have been going through this intensive course? The morale of top management in British Railways has been seriously affected by the sad story of the appointment the Chairman and I hope that the Government will ensure that such a situation never happens again.
    Another factor which may be directly relevant to the Supplementary Estimates is the fall in railway receipts, particularly freight rates. I wonder whether the Government would be prepared to institute a real investigation into the relationship of this fall to the service provided by British Railways. Those of us on this side of the House who have the interests of the railways at heart, who believe that this great industry has a dynamic future, are extremely reluctant to make specific references to cases of bad service, cases in which we feel British Railways has failed the other industries of the country. We are very reluctant to do so, but some of these failures are so bad that they should be referred to.
    When we are considering the question of the speed, reliability and efficiency of competing transport services, then the speed, reliability and efficiency of British Railways is very relevant. I have many examples, but one which I want to refer to was brought to my attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair). He told me of a letter that he received on 11th January from one of
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    the firms in his constituency, Kine Engineering Ltd., of Redhill, Surrey, concerned with making wood-cutting machinery. This is a firm with a wonderful export record which had gone to considerable lengths to try to expand its exports. My hon. Friend had been asked by the Board of Trade to congratulate the firm on its wonderful efforts. After six years of endeavouring to build up an export market in Holland it pulled out every possible stop to dispatch some machines to an exhibition in Holland.
    Normally, its overseas delivery was five to six weeks, but it did this within a matter of days. It then put the matter into the hands of British Railways. Sad to say, the machines were smashed before they arrived in Holland, and the result is that the firm believes that the export orders which they might have had have now disappeared. The firm also points to another example in which it suffered from British Railways. It said that to meet a special delivery in September the firm, with its own transport, made delivery to Reading so as to save time. The goods arrived by passenger train at the customer's destination four weeks later.
    There is not one hon. Member who does not have on his files a similar case, when British Railways have let someone down. There are many examples like this, directly affecting the amount of freight tonnage given to the railways, and these may result in further deficits. It is only fair to say that we also have many examples of splendid service on the part of British Railways, when they have gone to almost absurd lengths to ensure fair and good treatment to passengers. However, there are far too many cases such as those I have mentioned. I wonder whether any estimate has been made of the extent to which this kind of situation affected the production of these Supplementary Estimates.
    One important factor is the connection of safety with revenue. There has been a substantial reduction in revenue. We have been told that one of the main factors encouraging traffic and passengers is the railways' unique safety record. There is no other organisation which has such a good safety record as the railways. However, there have been certain distributing developments of late, which make us want to review the whole situation. There was a Parliamentary Answer

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    to one of my hon. Friends on 17th January, column 576, in which the Minister pointed out that the number of derailments in 1966 was over 300.
    Mr. Manuel Mr. Manuel rose—
    Mr. Taylor: I assure the hon. Gentleman that this is directly relevant, and that he ought to listen.
    The total was over 300, and, in fact, it was the highest figure for 10 years. When we are considering a Supplementary Estimate which relates to a considerable reduction in revenue and in freight tonnage, these are just the kind of factors at which we should look most carefully.
    I have given one example. There have already been some disastrous major accidents. In the Railway Review for 29th December, we read that the engineering staff of the Western Region is becoming more and more concerned about what it believes to be a deterioration in maintenance standards and practice. Taking all these matters together, with some of the alarming statements made at the recent Hither Green inquiry, there is a case for the Government instituting an inquiry into all aspects of safety in this great industry. It has had such a wonderful record that it would be a tragedy if an Estimate of the kind now before us were to be followed by others relating to the whole question of safety.
    I have referred to various factors arising on this Supplementary Estimate. The factor of morale is of great importance. The Government must look carefully at the state of morale on British Railways and its relation to this Supplementary Estimate. I apologise again for having spoken for a long time, and I realise that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire thinks that I should spend more time talking about London Transport and British Waterways, but the deficit on British Railways makes up such a considerable part of the whole deficit that I feel entitled to spend further time on British Railways.
    One of the principal factors affecting morale is the way that reorganisation schemes have been introduced and conducted. How many times have the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and others concerned with the railways heard from railway men that the one thing they are
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    fed up about is that, every two years, there is a reorganisation or a change round, with the result that management and men have to spend a great deal of time acclimatising themselves to a reorganisation or rearrangement which they may not regard as directly relevant to the future prosperity of British Railways? I have enormous sympathy with that feeling. There may be times when reorganisation must take place, but it is tragic that we have had so many.
    In these circumstances, when considering the figure of £30 million with which we are here concerned, how can we have any confidence in the Government's explanation? The most significant reorganisation is the establishment of a National Freight Authority, a factor of far greater relevance in reorganisation than any of the other internal changes we have had in the past. The Government ought to make an assessment of the effect on morale of what is covered by this sum of £30 million and the relationship of morale to the reorganisations which we have had. If they would allow the scarce management resources of British Railways to be concentrated on running the railways, without going in for some of the other strange, ideological exercises in nationalisation or the extension of public ownership, it would be far better for the future of our railways, and Supplementary Estimates of this kind would be far less likely to come before us.
    Mr. Manuel: I wish that the hon. Gentleman would not go on so when he talks about morale, making sweeping assertions and charges and references to the new legislation which is coming forward. Does he not realise that morale will be improved if drivers of road vehicles do not have to drive for such long hours? Does not he realise that this will make for more road safety? I am sure that he and everyone will agree with the part of the new legislation which deals with that matter. There must be a logical day's work for a man to perform in the conditions which we have on our roads today.
    Mr. Taylor: I was referring to the National Freight Authority. Does the Railways Board want the Authority? Does the National Union of Railwaymen want the Authority? Does

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    the hon. Gentleman know anyone who wants the Authority? The whole world does not want it. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's friends on the railways do not want it.
    However, what disturbed me in the hon. Gentleman's intervention just then was his suggestion that I was making assertions and charges. If he feels that I have been doing that, he has misunderstood my speech or I have failed to make the matter clear. The one point I am trying to get across is that this is not the time for assertions and charges. This is the time for the Government to look into these figures, realise their appalling size, and try to find a way to reduce them and ensure that Supplementary Estimates of this kind are not brought forward. It was on that basis that we initiated this debate, not to try to extract some mean party advantage but to find real solutions to the problems which confront transport and to elicit adequate answers to our questions.
    One of the directly relevant reasons for this Supplementary Estimate is the inflexibility of the Government's transport policy and their obsession with ideology. At about the beginning of the year covered by this Estimate, the Government decided that there would be a route mileage for British Railways of 11,000 miles. When we take that in conjunction with the various exercises in nationalisation undertaken by the Government since then, it is clear that Ministerial inflexibility is a directly relevant factor in this discussion.
    I am sorry to go on for a long time, but I have been repeatedly interrupted from the other side, though, admittedly, in a helpful way. One question which must be answered by the Government was raised with them last June. They have had notice of it ever since. In June last, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester made a most constructive speech in the railways debate and he put forward five points which he regarded as of direct relevance to the reduction of the deficit and the prevention of further Supplementary Estimates. I shall not mention all, five, but the one I raise with particular force now is the question of manpower policy.
    Many of us on this side have from time to time paid tribute to the way in
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    which the number of men employed on the railways has been consistently reduced in a fairly short time with, generally speaking, the co-operation of the trade unions. The fact that manpower has been reduced from 500,000 to about 360,000 in three years, with very little industrial unrest, is something of which the railways can be proud and, more important, something of which the unions involved can be proud. Nevertheless, bearing in mind the various estimates which have been made and the studies conducted by people outside the railways, I wonder whether, even at the present figure, there is a great deal of waste of manpower on British Railways.
    A good part of the £30 million we are here considering relates to surplus capacity and surplus manpower on British Railways. On the question of surplus manpower, I appeal to the Minister not to think just of the vehicle repair shops and of the men who drive the trains. I want him to consider the administration as well. In London, we have the headquarters of British Railways and three regional headquarters. This part of British Railways does not seem to contract with the same intensity as does the footplate part. The time has come to review the whole manpower situation within British Railways, the administrative offices as well as the man on the footplate.
    When the time comes for my right hon. and hon. Friends to take responsibility for this great industry, one of the matters to which we shall give careful attention will be the whole question of manpower in administration as well as on the operational side of the railways.
    There is a great deal more which I should like to say, but, having already taken too much time, I make my final point. There is a great danger of it being said that this is just another Supplementary Estimate, the money has been spent, and there is nothing we can do about it. In fact, we can do a great deal about it. We can ask why. Why has it come about? Let us identify the various parts of it and see how we can prevent this sort of thing happening again.
    On many occasions, we on this side of the House are, quite wrongly, accused of being against the railways. We are sometimes said to have a prejudice which leads

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    us to be regarded as enemies or opponents of British Railways. Nothing could be further from the truth. We do not approach these questions from the standpoint of being against the railways. We are very much for our railways. We are on the side of the railways, wishing all the time to offer them a really dynamic future.
    We saw the beginning of that policy when we had Lord Beeching and former Conservative Transport Ministers who recognised that years of decline and despondency could be removed only if the modern railways were to face the reality of living with the car age. The task set by previous Ministers and Lord Beeching was not to destroy the railways, but to create a new system which was modern, efficient and dynamic.
    Enormous progress was made under our previous Governments which led to a substantial reduction of the railways' deficit and made a major change in the morale of those who worked on the railways. That was done by a policy of substantial investment in new equipment, in electric trains and in freight liners. Now, however, we see the situation being reversed. The deficits are growing, items of capital expenditure are being slashed and the Government are obsessed ideologically in introducing a Bill entailing £71 million to nationalise the bus companies and to take over Glasgow's transport.
    The policies put forward by the Conservative Government offered the railways a dynamic future with real progress and growth. It is because, we believe, those policies are being ignored and because the Government arc going in the wrong direction that we have this figure before us today and we can look forward only to mounting deficits. The time has indeed come for a change, and I fear that what we are about to hear from the Government will confirm that that time has come.
    4.31 p.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Morris): We have had a long and interesting speech from the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor). He was at times passionate, and I thought that he might explode, but
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    I seemed to sense that some of his passion was slightly phoney in parts. We have had a long almost Cook's tour of the railways dealing with safety, legislation, investment, morale, as well as the things which caused plate cracks, and the ancient hobbyhorse of the need to examine manpower in administration.
    On one occasion, the hon. Member suggested that I might be sheltering under the rules of order in trying to evade a debate on legislation. I have no objection to having a full debate on legislation. Indeed, over the next few weeks—possibly, the next few months—we shall be discussing transport legislation at length. I imagined, however, that the hon. Member was straying somewhat in that he wanted to have a rehash of the Transport Bill Second Reading debate of a few weeks ago. It was only on 26th June last year that we had a full and wide-ranging debate over the whole of the railway deficit.
    The hon. Member suggested that the Government were not looking carefully into the problem of the deficit. On 26th June, I spelt out—obviously, this information has not sunk in—some of the things which we were then doing. The Minister and the then Chairman set up a Joint Steering Group under my chairmanship, comprising distinguished independent members, members of the Railways Board, a representative of the Treasury and other independent members, to look into these very matters and conduct a thorough inquiry into the whole of the finances of British Railways.
    Perhaps the hon. Member has forgotten the terms of reference of that inquiry. All I would say is that since the wide and full-ranging debate of 26th June, the Report of the group was published in a Cmnd. White Paper and his hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) was kind enough to congratulate the members of the group on the work which had been done.
    The matters which were looked at included a suggestion that there was need for differentiation between the social services and the commercial services and the suggestion that there should be a specific grant tied to the working of the individual socially necessary lines. We have never heard from hon. Members opposite whether they are for or against that kind of proposal. There was an incentive for

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    the reduction of the tracks of British Railways by a track rationalisation grant. Then we dealt with the need to ensure that the railways carried only the right kind of financial responsibilities for bridges, roads, museums, police and all the other things which historically they now carry; lastly, the inherited capital structure of the 1962 Act.
    When the hon. Member for Cathcart talks about the need for sensible and forward-looking policies, he must realise that whatever the difficulties and problems—and there are many—Brtish Railways are still operating under an Act of Parliament introduced by his right hon. Friends. I know that the hon. Member was not here in those days and, therefore, does not carry responsibility for it, but the deficit, large as it is, was £159 million even in 1962.
    What is obviously needed above all else is to ensure that the industry has the right amount of capital which it can properly carry and, at the same time, in respect of Ministerial responsibility, the right kind of board structure to ensure that it has the necessary financial control over this great industry and that those things which the industry has to carry and for which it should not be responsible should be laid at the door of the community as a whole.
    Those are the sensible proposals that we have put forward as against: first, the social services; secondly, the anoma1 lies of the past; thirdly, the capital structure; and, fourthly, the right kind of board with its emphasis on corporate planning and financial control. All these matters are gone into at some length in the Report which has been published. This, perhaps, is the attack on the under-lying problem to which I referred in the debate of 26th June and which is so necessary. Indeed, when one looks at the analysis made in the Report by a large number of independent commentators, the general view is that we have not been entirely wrong in our approach to this important matter.
    An interesting point made by the hon. Member was that the Government were starving the industry of investment. Looking at the situation objectively, over the years since 1962 there has been a very large amount of investment in this great industry. In looking at the national order of priorities, whether on this side
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    of the House or on the other, perhaps one of the problems is to ensure that investment is channelled to the right purposes. Whatever be the actual amounts of investment, it is a new one on me that the industry has been starved of investment.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: The point which I was making—I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept it—is that the amount of investment in 1968 will be below the average for the last 12 years. Bearing in mind that we spent £1,200 million over the last 10 years, will he confirm that the figure for 1968 will be only £100 million?
    Mr. Morris: Perhaps my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will be able to deal with the actual amount when he replies to the debate. If my memory serves me aright, however, the figure is £100 million. Looking at the whole of the investment of this great industry and its financial position today, however, no one could at any time say that the industry has been starved of investment. What is important is that investment should be channelled to the right purposes and that there should be the right kind of control over that investment. That is the point which we have made in our Report.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already ruled that on this Supplementary Estimate we cannot engage in a prolonged debate on investment policy.
    Mr. Morris: I agree entirely, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was merely replying to a point which had been made by the hon. Member for Cathcart, who was given some latitude in regard to both legislation and investment.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: The rules of order should be clearly understood. It is perfectly in order on a Supplementary Estimate to discuss, so far as may be relevant, what legislation may be involved. It is not in order, as I have already ruled, to discuss the question of investment policy.
    Mr. Morris: I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will not pursue the point. I think that I have dealt by way of my reply with the point which the hon. Member was allowed to make.

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    There is one other point I should like to make since the hon. Member asked me a specific question about it, and that is sale of property and other assets. I am not sure how far the hon. Member was suggesting it, but there seemed to be a suggestion that this was not being carried out as expeditiously as it might be. I am not sure that the hon. Member was making that point, but in fairness I will give the figures, which are that, in 1963, there were £12 million worth of sales of property and other assets; in 1964, £14½ million; in 1965, £22½ million; in 1966, £33½ million: and we have only an estimate so far for 1967, and that is over £20 million. Perhaps that information will be of some help to the hon. Member.
    Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if I were to go very quickly into the background of the method of these Estimates. As is made clear in the covering memorandum dated 16th January 1968, the additional provision being sought in respect of the Transport Boards' revenue deficits is related to the outturn for the whole of the Exchequer financial year.
    In the past, it has been the practice to submit a Supplementary Estimate during the winter for only 75 per cent. of any additional provision necessary to cover the year as a whole, but on this occasion it has been necessary, for technical reasons which are nothing to do with the financial results of the Boards, to seek 100 per cent. provision during the winter, instead of leaving a further amount to be sought by way of spring Supplementary Estimates.
    This has come about because of the urgent additional requirements for funds, largely as a result of acceleration of the payment of investment grants and compensation for foot and mouth disease, which are pressing hard on the Civil Contingencies Fund, which is statutorily limited to a maximum of £75 million. The total supplementary provision required for the year is in excess of that figure, and it is, therefore, necessary to accelerate the customary Parliamentary timetable in respect of some of the Estimates so as to secure provision earlier than would have been possible if the customary procedure had been followed, leaving the balance of the provision to
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    be granted through a March Consolidated Fund Bill.
    I want to emphasise this point since it is the sole reason for the increase of £6·8 million in the provision sought for payments of revenue deficit grant to the British Railways Board in the Revised Supplementary Estimate compared to the original Supplementary Estimate which was examined by the Estimates Committee and on which the Committee submitted a Report on 19th December last year. The additional money required is, therefore, not on account of any deterioration in the finances of British Railways compared to what was expected when the original Estimate was submitted. It is entirely due to the need for the Treasury to secure approval to additional provision in respect of the whole of the expected shortfall at this point of time instead of merely 75 per cent. of the shortfall.
    The House will have noted that the Revised Estimate also includes provision for payments of revenue deficit grant to the London Transport Board which were not provided for in the original Estimate which was examined by the Estimates Committee. Again, this does not mean that the provision now being sought relates to a sudden deterioration of the finances of the London Transport Board which was not foreseen at the time when the original Supplementary Estimate was submitted.
    The original Estimate concentrated on the provision necessary in respect of the deficit grant to the British Railways Board because this was by far the bigger sum and because, in accordance with normal practice, it was sufficient to seek 75 per cent. of this larger sum only and not to attempt to seek 75 per cent. of the additional provision necessary in respect of the much smaller deficit of the London Board. But now that the Revised Estimate seeks to secure 100 per cent. of the additional provision necessary in respect of the year as a whole, it is appropriate to include the additional money which is necessary to meet the shortfall incurred by the London Transport Board.
    The remaining item in the Revised Supplementary Estimate, relating to the deficit of the British Waterways Board, is, in fact, a saving on the original provisions obtained for the year 1967–68. It

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    amounts to £100,000, and is a useful little offset to the additional provision now being sought for British Railways and London Transport deficits. The House might like to know that the saving is attributable both to increased revenues accruing to British Waterways and to cost reductions. I am sure that the House will wish me to congratulate the British Waterways Board on its achievement, in a particularly difficult field, in a particularly difficult year.
    I thought I would set out the background to all those complicated matters.
    I now turn to the main constituent element in the Revised Estimate; that is the Supplementary provision of £28·8 million being sought for increased grants to the British Railways Board in respect of its revenue deficit for 1967–68. The House will be aware that the existing provision for these grants was £127 million, which it is now proposed should be increased to no less than £155·8 million. By far the greatest part of this prospective overspending arises in relation to the Board's deficit for 1967, which the Revised Estimate assumes will be £153 million as compared with the original estimate of £128 million, an increase of £25 million in the deficit estimated for the calendar year. The Board's accounts for 1967 have not yet, of course, been finalised, and the actual result will not be known for some time. However, I am informed that any variation from the present estimate will almost certainly be downwards rather than upwards, and this is good news on a front which worries us all.
    The main element in the Board's deficit crises on account of railway working, and the Estimate assumed that this will amount to £91 million in 1967, an increase of £24 million on the provision made in the original Estimate. I can tell the House that the deterioration can be attributed almost entirely to a shortfall in gross receipts. Working expenses are almost exactly on target, being only £0·2 million out of a budgeted £535 million; that is a variation of only 0·04 per cent. And within the figure of gross receipts, passenger earnings are only £0·4 million cut of a budgeted £180 million; that is a variation of only 0·2 per cent.
    The House might be interested to keep these remarkably close estimates in mind when considering the discrepancy in
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    freight receipts compared to freight estimates. Moreover, the House should know that the Board has not only absorbed increased costs of £17 million in 1967, but expects that its total working expenses will come out at a figure £6 million below that for 1966, implying a saving in constant price terms of £23 million. Thus, although the overall financial result is very disappointing, it is at least satisfactory that the Board has continued to release productive resources, particularly manpower, on a substantial scale. I dealt with this matter in the debate on 26th June.
    I now turn to the shortfall in total gross receipts, which the Revised Estimate assumes will be about £24½ million less in 1967 than was forecast in the original Estimate. This shortfall consists largely of the following main items.
    In the first place, there is the difference in passenger receipts to which I have already referred of almost £½ million. This is a particularly good result in a difficult year. Incidentally, hon. Members will, no doubt, have seen the Railways Board's statement that passenger journeys rose by 68 per cent. and receipts by 43 per cent. in the first year of operation on the London-Midland electric main line. This shows the remarkably buoyant future of main line inter-city services given the right sort of development.
    Next, there is a shortfall on coal and coke revenue of about £6 million. This category of freight traffic is particularly susceptible to the general level of industrial production, and the Board attributes the shortfall to the continued low level of industrial production compared to what it had estimated in its forward Estimates, which were, of course, made some considerable time ago when it seemed likely that there could be some upturn in the level of economic activity before the end of 1967. The House is well aware of the reasons why this has not come about—[Interruption.] I am dealing with each point in turn as objectively as the House would wish in considering the Estimates.
    Other factors influencing the level of coal receipts include the comparative severity of our winters, which cannot, of course, be forecast and where the Board suffered through a blessing to the rest of the economy of mild weather last year.

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    Iron and steel is another sector which has been seriously affected by the continuation of the industrial recession, both as regards finished products and iron ore. British Railways' carryings of the latter have also been affected by a trend during 1967 towards the use of imported ores. One bright feature in steel carryings, however, has been the success of some of the freightliner services, particular on the Wales to London route. All in all, the Board attributes £2½ million of the shortfall to iron and steel traffic.
    On the issue of freightliners, perhaps the House would like to know some of the details of the development of this important system. There are now 15 terminals in service, which is the whole of the first stage. London has three, and Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Aberdeen, Cardiff, Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Stockton, Newcastle, Hull and Edinburgh have one each. The Minister has also approved a freightliner terminal at Southampton, which is the first in the second stage, and proposals on the rest of the second stage have not yet been put to the Minister by the Board.
    There is a whole variety of traffic carried on the system. It includes meat, porridge oats, machinery, paper, books, gas cookers and sperm whale-oil. The first one from Edinburgh to London, on 8th January, 1968, included containers of whisky bound for Paris. Steel is carried from Cardiff to Willesden at the rate of 600 tons per week, and now dirty collars are sent to Scotland for laundering on a regular overnight service. The 100,000th container from London to Manchester on 8th October, 1967, was a load of Guinness.
    Perhaps the whole variety of freight being carried is a very great encouragement to the attractiveness of this important system to consumers as a whole.
    Mr. Peter Walker: This information about the alcoholic content of the freightliner traffic is very interesting. However, could the hon. Gentleman give us some figures about the revenue and the expenditure of the freightliner train service?
    Mr. Morris: It is not possible to give such figures. The system is still in its early stages and, of course, the gross receipts, when looked at in totality, are
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    comparatively small. I think that one should keep a sense of proportion about the importance of this growing trade.
    I think that I have dealt sufficiently with that important facet, and perhaps I might now move on to deal with the most serious—
    Mr. James Scott-Hopkins: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that he cannot give any figures of capital expenditure for the setting up of the freightliner service?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Member for Worcester was on a different point. He wanted to know about the profitability of the service. I have not the figures of the capital expenditure involved, but I am sure that I can get them for the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Scott-Hopkins), because the Minister's consent would have been involved. However, I do not carry the figures in my head. I will look into the matter.
    The most serious shortfall of all has been incurred in the category of traffic known as "other wagon load", which broadly represents miscellaneous traffics which often require much marshalling and sorting. The shortfall here was £6½ million while on the somewhat similar type of traffic known as sundries, there was a shortfall of £2 million. In both cases, the Board says that the economic situation was the principal reason for its estimates being so badly out, though exceptional factors were the direct interruption of services as a result of the guards' strikes in September and October and the London Rail Freight Depot strike earlier in the year, together with the loss of confidence in rail services which such strikes created.
    This also had something to do with the shortfall on revenue expected from parcels carried by passenger train, amounting to £3m. For the future, the reorganisation which the Board now has well in hand of its sundries traffic is expected to be of great value, beginning with 1968 and showing further reductions of the losses in the early years of the National Freight Corporation, who will take over responsibility for this particular traffic under the provisions of a Measure now before the House. The shortfalls that I have just mentioned amount, in all, to about £20½ million. On top of this, the original Vote Estimate estimated that

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    further gross receipts would be received of almost £4 million. This sum was not broken down into the various categories that I have just mentioned and should, therefore, be added to the aggregate of £20½ million to give a total shortfall of £24½ million.
    Turning to the other activities of the Board—that is, other than railway working—the position is that it achieved a net working surplus of about £8 million as compared with a budgeted figure of £8½ million. This, of course, is a considerable improvement on last year's result—£.6·4 million—when the shipping activities were badly affected by the seamen's strike. Hotels results have been rather disappointing, merely maintaining their net surplus at about last year's level and falling somewhat short on Forward Estimates. On the other hand, the letting of non-operational property produced almost £1 million more than the Board had forecast.
    If I can summarise, the overall position is that, while railway working expenses were held to budgeted levels, despite increased costs, railway gross revenue was about £24 million down on the figure underlying the Vote Estimate. There was a shortfall of £½ million on other activities which was offset by a corresponding saving in interest. The overall deterioration was increased to £25 million by the expenditure of almost £1 million on redundancy payments to staff who took advantage of resettlement arrangements, compared to the estimate made in the Board's budget.
    Although this expenditure increases the deficit in the short term, the Board, of course, gains in the long term and it is to be congratulated on its success in decreasing its long term costs by running its business with less staff than it had thought would be needed at the beginning of the year. It had forecast a total reduction of about 15,000, and, in the event, it was able to manage a reduction of 20,000, which, I am sure the House will agree, was a notable achievement for a labour intensive business.
    So far, I have dealt with the deficit on a calendar year basis, but, of course, the overall provision necessarily has to be related to the Exchequer financial year, and this brings in the first eight weeks of 1968, when grant payments have to be made in respect of the deficit which the Board incurs during those weeks. The
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    original Estimate made a provision of £14 million to meet such payments, but it now seems prudent, in the light of the shortfall in 1967, to assume that the first two months of 1968 will show a comparable worsening over the forecast made a year ago, and provision is accordingly sought for about £3½ million on this account.
    I have already taken up a good deal of time in dealing with the main element in the Supplementary Estimate, and perhaps the House would be content if my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary were to explain the make-up of the supplementary provision which is necessary on account of grants to the London Board in the reply to the debate which he will be making later.
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. John Peyton: I think that the House would wish to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the skill with which he kept his head down and avoided trouble in answering the very able speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor).
    The hon. Gentleman's modesty is a good example to some of his more arrogant colleageaues who habitually disregard their failures and never apologise. It is nice to have a Minister getting up and saying that the general view has been that they have not been entirely wrong. This is the sort of modest claim which, while I would not endorse it, as least I do not feel obliged to rebut with the vigour I would normally contribute to Ministerial assertions.
    The hon. Gentleman should be thanked for one of his contributions to the House—a charming piece of phraseology—when he referred to the useful little offset of the British Waterways Board. I would be highly ungenerous if I did not, with enthusiasm, endorse the little message of congratulation which he sent to the British Waterways Board. It is a wonderful thing to have this useful little offset of £100,000. If only other bigger creatures could follow that noble example!
    We were then given the assurance that any revision of these present lamentable Estimates would be downwards, not upwards. It is very nice, but I am not sure how one reconciles it with the last part of the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks when he told us that the first two months of this year had shown the trend of losses

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    continuing, if not getting worse. I hope, therefore, that the Parliamentary Secretary will not have to eat even those limited words which he uttered just now.
    A horrid suspicion came into my mind at one stage in his speech. It was that he had not composed every word of that speech himself. I would not ask him to confirm or deny this, but the words which particularly called this suspicion into my mind were when he referred to the upturn in the level of economic activity which has not taken place for reasons of which the House will be aware. I do not believe that any Member of Parliament could possibly have composed that sentence, because it was bound to be greeted in a fairly ribald way, as indeed it was. We are all abysmally aware of the reasons why the level of economic activity has now risen.
    It seems to me that the House of Commons is at its weakest and does itself the least service when we come to discuss Estimates such as these. We do not seem willing to see such matters in the general context of our economic affairs, even after the background of last week. My hon. Friend was absolutely right to call attention to this £30 million Supplementary Estimate we are now called upon to pass in contrast to what happened last week. If the House of Commons was doing its job properly, if it was really making a bid to earn public respect, it would be paying a great deal more attention to matters of that kind.
    It seems a very odd thing that when we come to discuss these issues—which are, by the way, Motions in the name of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—that the Treasury, which is not really the most modest of beings, should be so shy as not to put a Minister forward to explain the details in such circumstances. The Treasury is responsible for the control of the finances of the country and it seems a very odd custom that no Treasury Minister ever appears even to hold a watching brief on behalf of his Department. Anyone who has been a member of the Public Accounts Committee has listened to the Treasury constantly saying that often a particular Department or particular nationalised industry is very closely examined on its figures. I never have much regard for that sort of argument—in fact none at
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    all—but it would be nice if the Treasury were to show a little more interest in the affairs of these industries and Departments by having a Minister on the Government Bench in case Members of Parliament should be so impetuous as to wish to ask questions of the bankers.
    An alternative course of action which the House of Commons would do well to adopt from time to time would be, when we get an Estimate like this, to throw it back at the Government and say, "We will not pass it. We have not been told enough. We have not been given nearly enough evidence about the causes for this mistake in forecasting". The Government say that they trusted the National Plan, but that is a grossly overworked alibi. They should not be allowed to get away with constantly saying that they rely upon such monumental pieces of nonsense.
    This is a tremendously powerful argument against nationalisation. Had the railways never been nationalised, I have no doubt that by this time they would have slimmed down into an efficient and useful service. Once an industry is nationalised, one of the great tenets of Treasury policy since the war—or even before that, but more visibly so since the war—has been to reinforce failure and penalise success. It is one of the things for which this country owes the Treasury a debt of no gratitude.
    I find that these repeated requests, which everybody knows from start to finish will be rubber-stamped and proved, are excellent examples of the pitfalls and the thorns and the wretched miseries of the road of public ownership
    I endorse what my hon. Friend said about the management of the railways, particularly the appalling way in which the onerous and responsible post of the chairman was disposed of and handled. I should like to offer a word of good wishes—one would hardly say congratulations, but I do mean good wishes—to Mr. Johnson on assuming that post. My goodness, he is getting a job! As my hon.. Friend also said, one of his jobs will be to fight his so-called friends in the Government that set up the nationalised railways in the first place, because there is constant interference from the Government in nationalised industries, and particularly the railways. I am not here

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    making a party point. Since the railways were first established in this country—I do not know why; perhaps the overwhelming desire of successive Governments to get down and play trains—no Government in the past, except one which was overburdened with the affairs of running a large war or something of that kind, has been able to resist the temptation to approach the railways like an amateur gardener approaches a garden bed, digs the whole blooming lot up, has a look at the roots, and then puts some of the weeds back and takes none of the proper action. It is this constant tampering and lack of modesty which one finds as the major characteristic in the Establishment in approaching the complex affairs of an industry about which individually they know practically nothing.
    I have not got a note of the exact words used by Mr. Gerard Fiennes, the ate General Manager of the Western Region, when he wrote that article for which he was guillotined, but it was something to the effect that only in the days of the great and good doctor had anybody got down to the business of how to make this industry into a national asset instead of letting it be a national millstone.
    That is the real point. One of the first things the Government did when they took office was to sack Beeching. I am not suggesting that they sacked Lord Beeching because they did not like his face, or he did not agree with them politically, or anything like that. They sacked him because the consequences of his policy were too embarrassing. The Government do not like facts. It was very difficult for the Tory Government during the period running up to the 1964 General Election, but at least they stuck to the plans. Exceptions were made here and there, but, generally, they pressed on with the policy laid down by Beeching, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) who had the guts and courage to go on with what he said he was going to do. He found a first-class man, and gave him a chance to get on with his job, and in that sentence one sets out how a Government should behave. This Government has behaved in precisely the opposite way, and the consequences were, are, and will be, disastrous. They fired
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    Dr. Beeching because they could not face reality.
    I do not think that I need deal with the level of economic activity, because it has been referred to by my hon. Friend, but I would like to say something about coal traffic. I see no chance of reversing the trends. The largest market for coal is by a long way the electricity industry, and save where power stations are situated at the coalfields, the prospects of the coal industry supplying large quantities of its product are meagre indeed.
    The iron and steel industry has already been referred to as one reason for the disappointing freight record. I do not want to say much about a particular case, but I have written to the general manager concerned and received a courteous and helpful reply, and no doubt he will deal with the matter. This case illustrates a real sickness in the industry. A constituent of mine, a steel stockist at Andover, is building a works. Some months ago—I think that it was in September or October—he started discussing the matter with the railways. The traffic going through, both in and out, was between 75,000 and 100,000 tons a year of coil steel and plates, the sort of cargo which one would expect a steel stockist to handle. Not until now, when I have written to the general manager, was there any assurance that the railways were going to jump at this traffic, which is made for them. It is repetitive traffic. It is easy to handle. It is tailor-made for them, and yet they are dragging their feet, rather than saying, "Here is a customer whom we will pursue and encourage for all we are worth, because this is just the kind of traffic that we must get on to the railways if they are to be made to pay".
    My hon. Friend referred to morale in the industry. I do not want to speak for those who have not given me the authority to do so, but railwaymen in my constituency have expressed great concern about the sort of hazy plans now being indulged in, and I have the impression, though I would not, for a moment, like anyone to think that general managers are anything but loyal, or allow themselves to be tempted to say things which are hostile to the Government, that they have been driven to their wits' ends by this constant intervention by the Government, and in particular by the

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    sudden production of this colossal great "heffalump", the National Freight Authority. I cannot see the justification for this.
    The liner trains are a splendid project. They show signs of success. I accept that the pay packet is the most important thing for those engaged in industry, but everyone likes a sniff of success now and again, and Ministers ought to be aware of this. The railways have produced a service which can compete with, and offer better services than, those available by road, and at a reasonable price. This is a first-class piece of successful planning, but it is being whisked away from them, and they are being left with their own operations. It must be terribly disappointing for anybody who looks at this problem from the point of view of a railwayman.
    I conclude by reverting to some of the remarks that I made at the beginning. I find it a crushing disappointment that more concern is not expressed about the expenditure of such vast sums of money as this. Having been worked into a state of frenzy last week by the charade in early January, both inside and outside Downing Street, the House should now be more willing to follow its proper path of duty, which is to supervise, examine, and stimulate into some sort of action, the Treasury, which is meant to be the banker. These are demands upon limited and over-pressed national resources. I cannot help thinking that if this is the best that this House of Commons can do in the present context of our affairs, in the performance of its duty of supervising national finances, the best thing that can happen is for it to be dissolved without delay.
    5.18 p.m.
    Mr. Charles Mapp: I regret that I have come into the Chamber rather late in the debate—this is due to sudden enforced circumstances—but I think that I have picked up the drift of the argument so far. I confess that in following the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) I do not propose to go into his mixture of narrow political argument, with some impishness about it.
    I regret that year after year since 1953 there has been a deficit in railway
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    receipts. This year's deficit of about £138 million is to be increased to nearly £170 million, by just over £30 million. I think that we must analyse this figure without too much party spirit, because I believe that on many occasions both sides of the House have not been helpful to the railway industry. This may be partly because of the narrow approach that is sometimes made and partly the question of cost deficits. I was a railwayman. I came here with the help of a railway union, but I am now completely free in that respect, although my associations on both sides are very friendly and intimate.
    I want to be frank and analytical. In my view, this is not a political issue; we ought to assess the changes that the internal combustion engine, with its great mobility, has thrust upon the railways, with their considerable rigidity. I have always felt that since the Act of 1947 one of the greatest disasters was that in the first few years we had eminent civil servants or ex-civil servants at the head of the British Transport Commission. Eminent though these people were, they had not been used to the railway environment and to taking decisive action. They had not been used to the environment of business—of making their minds up. Nor had they been used to the need to animate legislation. They were always more used to being influenced by one or other Government Department.
    It has always been my view that if the House sets out conditions under which a nationalised industry should operate, those in charge of the industry should regard as their bible the relevant legislation, and should retain vigorous and independent minds, running their undertaking without politics but setting out the hard economic facts and proclaiming them to whoever will listen.
    For the first few years—indeed, until the mid-1950s—there was a marked lack of interest in the public mind and in the minds of hon. Members on both sides of the House about the economic problems besetting the railways—not least the economic problems of built-in costs in competing forms of transport. During the first few days of 1968, after many years of Tory Government and about three years of Labour Government, we are still awaiting the essential prerequisite to any study of internal transport,

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    namely, the basic costings. I am not happy about being asked to consider a major Bill, the principles of which are long overdue in their application, without any knowledge of what I call the major costings.
    Throughout my life—and the process is continuing now, in air transport—we have constantly paid subsidies in one way or another to various forms of transport. Then, in a few hectic moments, we have tried to compare the tariffs of the different forms of transport, or their respective performance, and then we have drawn narrow and limited conclusions, from false premises.
    The future of the railways is totally different from what it was in the past. I recognise that the rigidity of the track, except in respect of peak traffic, is bound to limit the degree to which railways can compete with the internal combustion engine. It is also my view that in the struggle of the railways to find their right Place in the future transport pattern they have been unfairly treated in terms of costings. Only in 1962 did we relieve railways of their common carrier liabilities. Only in the last few years have we begun to consider their real problem.
    I want to make a passing reference to the tragedy that occurred a few days ago in Staffordshire, and the inquiry that has been instituted concerning certain types of crossing. At Question Time the other day I had hoped to express the view that there should be a wider inquiry. From the supplementary questions and answers it would appear that the inquiry will be concerned only with examining existing forms of safety on both road and rail, where they run across each other. In my view, such an inquiry should be wide enough to consider the new forms of loading that both the roads and railways have to deal with, in the new circumstances, and to see whether existing arrangements should be modified to the new set of conditions.
    A few years ago we would not have expected. to see on the roads transformers of the weight which we see now, one of which was involved in the recent accident. There is also the question of greater weight and speed, as in the case of the train on which I travelled from Manchester this afternoon. These are
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    all new elements, and I hope that the inquiry will be wide enough to examine them in order that recommendations may be made about them.
    The Minister should drop altogether what I regard as being a sheer waste of time in trying to identify the social costs of the railways. Before I came here I had some administrative responsibility on the railways. I know many middle-level management officers who are generally unconcerned with politics. If I dismiss from my mind any political view, as I want to do in this matter, and ask any of those officers, who have serious responsibilities to the public, if he is able to identify, in his day-to-day operations, that part of the costs he is incurring in providing a service which is attributable to social costings, he will throw up his hands in despair.
    I remember having discussions round a table in Manchester with regional railway officers. I was their guest and they asked if I would talk to them. Because of old personal relationships we were not talking about politics, but when I asked whether any of my colleagues—engineers, signal engineers, operating men and estate engineers—could, in his heart of hearts, begin to draw out from his costings those items which he could, with his hand on his heart, say were his social costings, nobody was able to do so.
    Excluding the present general manager of the new railways and a few others who are practical railwaymen, the people in charge, with their academic and economic knowledge, are less likely to be able to identify the social costings than are those who are on the job day by day. I have read with the greatest care the ministerial reports of the many meetings of committees and sub-committees involving railway officers, and I am totally unconvinced that the figures that will ultimately evolve will persuade me or anyone else who knows anything about the subject that the figures could form criteria that will last.
    Let us look at the costings between any two major cities—between Plymouth or Exeter and London, or between Manchester and London, or between Glasgow and London. The services have been costed on the basis of a certain volume of passenger transport and of freight transport. This is the acceptable method. If

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    I were in charge of operations, I would be concerned not with costings but with moving trains from Manchester to London, or from Exeter to London, on their way North. I would not be concerned with the route, but with my manpower and the use or over-use of the tracks. I should use for freight the most serviceable route, which can and, occasionally, does change every three or four months. It changes between summer and winter and if there is a rugby football match at Twickenham.
    Bearing in mind that 60 per cent. of track costs go to freight traffic, where do costings get us? I would summarise to the Minister the arguments which I used in Committee in 1962. They are very simple. It is patently true that every railway officer can present a factual yearly statement of his track and policing costs. They are not estimates but pragmatic figures and the work can be set against the cost. By design or otherwise, year by year, the track and such ancillary costs of railways generally—the case of London Transport is different—equate the kind of subsidies which we have had to face.
    Let us be realistic. In many continental countries this problem is not the subject of exercises by a Minister and his staff. Until two or three years ago—I do not know the present position—the Minister had on his staff fewer than 20 people who knew the railways from having worked on them. In comparison, there are over 1,000 backroom boys dealing with road transport. If I were Minister and had such a paucity of firsthand knowledge of the railways, I wonder whether I would be satisfied with internal advice like that. I would constantly look askance at the railways information; this is what the Ministry has to do.
    The Ministry has always been satisfied to have only this slender advice—I would have grave reservations about that position of responsibility. I would be in the hands of either a set of railway officers who might consider matters in two different ways or of a very slender advice staff which, although academically and economically well informed was unable to set one set of operating conditions against another—
    Miss J. M. Quennell: The hon. Member's point is very important.
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    Is he suggesting that the Minister should have a railway equivalent of the Road Research Laboratory, so that she could test and cost innovations and experiments?
    Mr. Mapp: I am glad that I gave way.
    This is the fertile consequence of what I am saying. The basic study of new passenger trains now going on at Derby, of trains of 100 tons moving at speeds of 150 m.p.h., which some of us saw a few months ago, will come to the House and the Minister with all the boffin work done by railway headquarters. And the Ministry will have only this limited personnel. Apart from the safety officer, I doubt whether any of them has the day-to-day knowledge of balancing the claims of passenger and freight traffic and of how to get the most use out of a given set of men, locomotives and track.
    I am not asking for an increase in the number of civil servants, but an intake of 20 or 30 knowledgeable operating officers might be a first-class investment for the Ministry, bearing in mind that it has the right to approve or disapprove of major capital investments.
    When I worked on the railways I might have asked for a few thousand pounds when I was trying to fill wagons and trains and, in those days, make £1 million at my station into something more. Those of us who were near these problems did not see them in the same way as they are seen in the Minister's long minutes and social costings. Instead of wasting time on these academic exercises, the Minister might say frankly—I would hope with the approval of both sides of the House—that Parliament would be prepared to authorise the track, signalling and policing costs of railways each year and then say, "We are now putting you on a parity with the highways".
    What might follow? With some knowledge of operating, I would say that if, with track costings and policing being paid by an outside body, I were unable to get adequate passenger and freight traffic to ensure a continuing surplus after two or three years, I would have to decide, as a practical person, "This line is not being patronised by the public. They do not want it and there is a case for closing it." That would be a far better criterion than that written into the old Act, which will be extended in the new one, with

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    its curious consultative committees and those inquiries which I have always attended in the knowledge that I and perhaps two or three others in the room were the only ones who could ask the real. awkward questions, because we had the experience to enable us to look behind the figures.
    Is it right, these days, that only one of our major industries should have to try to prove such things as the worth of a fine? This does not happen in coal, electricity or other industries. I am all for consultation within reason, but if we are to try to keep lines open, we must be practical. It is very popular to argue for one's constituents that a particular "tiddly wink" station should stay open for the benefit of a few people two or three times a day. This is a good constituency point, but it is not our whole responsibility as Members of Parliament. If we paid the railway people for their track and policing and put them on a parity with the roads, and if the people of the area do not patronise that form of transport then, in terms of national investment, we ought to withdraw it.
    Let us consider the consequences of doing so. First, we should avoid all the silly controversy which heats up in villages and towns which are struggling to maintain a service from the Victorian age which economically cannot be maintained. secondly, we should have automatic criteria. If we paid for the track, then it would become the property of the State and the Minister could use the vacant track, through the local authorities, for development, in many cases as additional roads. He could make use of the property through local government or in any other way that was suitable. That would be a considerable gain.
    In the Bill which is shortly entering Standing Committee, the Minister is pursuing a course which will show us, in a few years' time, that all the present exercises have been completely unavailing. It will be found to have been a waste of time to reach an equation of x when no one will know the meaning of x. I ask the Minister to reconsider the whole matter. She may take as much advice as she likes, but I have summarised today the argument which I used upstairs, and it is still valid. The system I suggest operates in a modified
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    form in France and in another form in Holland—I have seen them both—as well as in other parts of the world. If we adopted it, it would save a lot of time.
    I do not mind being political on some issues. The hon. Member for Yeovil said in the latter part of his speech that nationalisation is always a disease and never brings success. From 1951 onwards the Conservative Government interfered with some parts of nationalised transport, but if they shared his views, why did they not examine the possibility of handing the railways system back to private enterprise?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Member is going a little beyond the Supplementary Estimate in speaking of what happened and what did not happen in 1951.
    Mr. Mapp: I hope to keep in order, Mr. Irving. I was trying to make the point that we have had these deficits since 1953, 1954–55. If the hon. Member took the view that those deficits might have been avoided by some other course of action, then I remind him that his Government had all the opportunities to avoid them. In fact, they caused the deficits, which rose higher and higher.
    Mr. Peyton: I entirely agree with much that the hon. Member said. I have never tried to whitewash either the actions or inactions of successive Tory Governments. What I said at the end of my speech was that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) very wisely appointed Lord Beeching and had the courage and wisdom to let Lord Beeching run the railways. In so doing he set a magnificent example for his successor in the Ministry of Transport, which unfortunately the right hon. Lady has not followed. She ran away from the consequences of Beeching.
    Mr. Mapp: I accept some part of the hon. Member's comment and I will give him a little succour in his analysis by telling him that I always looked upon Lord Beeching's contribution as very valuable and hoped that his services would continue. But I regarded him mainly as a catalyst. There were many problems which many railway officers had tried to hide under the carpet. He was a catalyst, and in a sense his service in bringing to light ugly, awkward facts was remarkable.

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    I should have liked Lord Beeching to continue and possibly to have with him two colleagues who might perhaps have been able to marry with that catalyst mind a dynamic forward-looking policy and a belief that corporate collective action can work as well as, if not better than, the individual, private profit motive. We did not have the opportunity.
    I have said that other leaders were of the civil servant type—men too careful and too cautious. We needed an individual with the courage to face the Government, of whichever party, and to say, "My remit is laid down in the Act of Parliament." It has been done in the electricity industry. Apart from Lord Beeching, I believe that practically all railways Chairmen since 1947, while they were men of great character, were without the drive and the energy to tell those in Government what their responsibility was and what they would accept.
    May I turn to two services in which the railways have initiated developments which are worth while. Hon. Members opposite may feel that I am not as warm-blooded about liner trains as they are. That is probably because I know a little more about them than they do, because I worked with them long before it was popular to talk about them. The railways have had a working knowledge of liner trains for many years. For years a major power station in Liverpool has been so served by coal from the Yorkshire coalfields. There are, or were, four trains a day—liner trains is the modern term for them: 18-ton vehicles carrying 64-ton loads from outside Buxton to Northwich, carrying the basic elements for I.C.I. factories in Northwich.
    These are sound operating trains. The principle is not new. It is not necessary to tell railwaymen about them, for they can see these trains running from point to point and earning revenue. But, sooner or later, hon. Members of both sides of the House will understand that the volume of traffic passing between smaller towns is not necessarily large enough for liner trains. The amount of traffic between the smaller towns is such that it cannot possibly be suitable for the liner train system. In this conception of liner trains we are talking about the major centres of industry.
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    I regret that the proposal for the liner train is not quite as I wished to see it. It has been encouraged by the Ministry in terms of investment and, with some reservations about terminal costings, by me. I agree that these trains have made an impact and are very profitable. But I regret that we are to have the clumsy and wholly impracticable arrangement by which the railway cartage fleet—and I do not know whether it applies to the containers, to—will be handed over, in a sense, to some other authority. At any rate, they will do all the terminal work. They will sell these container loads and will collect and deliver them. They will have the key voice in telling those railway people who are trying to operate trains night and day how much the fare will be.
    As one who is interested and who at one time had a railway fleet under my charge, I should like to know how people operating a fleet in the conditions in which they will operate liner fleets will be able to tell me and others who are railway operating officers what my freight costings must be. This is implied in the whole arrangement and I regret what is happening to this service—for reasons which I suspect but will not detail now. Suffice to say that I believe the reasons to be based on expediency rather than on practical working. I therefore regret that the Minister has felt it necessary to take this step.
    The same could be said of hovercraft, although I am not as well informed on this issue as I might be. What I know about the subject leads me to believe that the same arguments apply. A great deal of "know-how" and money have been invested. Railwaymen want to know that they are working in an industry which has a future. It is not encouraging for railway officers and others who have been in the industry for many years always to be told that they are in a bankrupt service. They want to provide a service which will be viable in the future and they do not want these opportunities to be taken from them. I do not see how railway charges of this kind can be determined by people who will be more concerned with collection and delivery than actually with haulage and freight.
    When one considers the loss aspect of the railways, one must admit that commuters are primarily responsible for a

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    large share and that the same applies on the buses. However diligent one might be, I cannot see how, when operating a fleet of., say, 1,000 buses, one can carry every available commuter at the peak hours in the mornings and evenings and not lose money when most of those buses are otherwise virtually idle, eating into one's costs, for the rest of the day. Unless commuter fares are very heavily increased. money will continue to be lost.
    A greater realisation of the commuter problem should exist and this whole problem should be looked at more realistically. I agree that the problem bears more heavily on London than some parts of the provinces, but I regret the precedent which has been established of Looking at the problem in London without considering it in as much detail elsewhere. Regardless of whether I represent Oldham or London, this precedent should not be continued. While the problem of commuter fares in London may be greater in volume, it is similar to that in Birmingham, Newcastle and other major cities. These various problems should be looked at on their merits.
    I am not averse to an equiation or cross-subsidiation to solve this problem, although I accept that hon. Gentlemen opposite consider this with a good deal of reservation. I believe that cross subsidisation is inevitable. It exists in the postal services and in many other spheres. Indeed, if it did not exist in the Post Office, we in Oldham would pay about one-third of the present postal charges which we must meet. This happens to be the case because of the terrific volume of outward mail-order traffic. It is the cream of the business, but I accept that cross-subsidisation must exist.
    The principle that some other authorities should have an effective voice in deciding commuter fares in and out of London and should have some precept on their local authorities about the loss that exists in the fares structure for buses causes me to have great doubts in my mind. This is because there will be considerable doubt generally that local democracy will not be effective and—I say this having been a councillor—because I do not believe that the average councillor, whichever party he represents, is able to work out the sort of sums involved in this exercise. There will, of
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    course, also be the claims of pressure groups.
    If my right hon. Friend wishes to avoid the kind of supplementary figures which are at present presented, she should be straightforward to John Bull and say, "I am putting the railways on precisely the same financial footing as the roads. I will pay their maintenance costs and the costs policing, either through taxes or rates". If, then, the railways powers that be cannot contrive a method of movement, wagons and trains, that works, and if they cannot encourage people to fill them, the British public might then have to face the closure sort of solution.
    Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: The hon. Gentleman is saying that the country should take over the railways and that the railways should be free in the way that the roads are free. Is he aware that the roads are not free, that people use the roads in cars and lorries but must pay a tax for doing so? Will he explain how a similar state of affairs could exist on the railways?
    Mr. Mapp: I am not sure to what extent that is relevant in terms of taxes. Being a driver, I accept that I pay a fee which permits me to be a driver. Purchase Tax must be paid when a car is purchased initially, and that is part of the national taxation system. I would agree with the hon. Gentleman to the extent that an argument could be adduced about the duty on petrol. I would also agree that, if parity existed between rail and road, the other taxation, which has been imposed over the years by Governments of both parties, should be given further consideration.
    My main argument is that the principle involved should be given first priority, and then our problems might be more easily solved. Railway officers and men would then be able to look forward without having constantly to face the charge that the railways are milking the nation, are a losing proposition and are never doing anything profitably. We must be realistic and accept that, faced with the commuter problems that exist, it is unlikely that the railways can become viable unless we tackle the problem realistically. If people engaged in industry believe intrinsically that there is a fair chance to sell their articles, utilities

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    or services—and in this case a service—then that belief is half-way to achieving our objective.
    5.59 p.m.
    Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: I listened with interest to the thoughtful and helpful speech of the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp), although I did not entirely agree with his remarks about the taxation of the roads compared with the railways.
    This Supplementary Estimate represents an increase of £30 million in one year, the money to be produced by the taxpayer. This is where the roads and the railways differ. The roads produce money, while the railways use it up. This money must be produced by the taxpayer at a time when, according to the Prime Minister, Government expenditure should be cut.
    If Government expenditure has to be cut, why is it not cut in this Supplementary Estimate? We are told that the extra payment to the railways is necessary because of a reduction in freight receipts. If freight receipts have been reduced, why not reduce the service until it meets the requirement of the freight, instead of imposing on the public this fantastic increase of 33 per cent. for a service that the public clearly does not want to use? What is the purpose of doing this?
    How long do the Government intend continuing to maintain at public expense a system that is far too big for the requirements of today's transport clientele? The Government ought to accept the fact that the needs of transport users change—they are not the same from one generation to another—and instead of pouring this money into a system that has been proved not to be wanted, the Government ought to trim the size of the railways so that it approximates to the demand for the service.
    There is nothing sacrosanct about the figure of 11,000 track miles selected by the Minister as being the right size for the railways. The Minister just pulled that figure out of the air, as it were. The hon. Gentleman must know that that is what happened in the Ministry. Those concerned did not even use matchsticks for their calculations, far less slide rules
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    —they just pulled the figure out of the air without having any scientific basis.
    If, instead of sticking to 11,000 track miles, the Government were to make economies, the money could be used where it is needed most—in the improvement of our road system. But it is expenditure on the roads, which are wanted, that is to be cut as a result of the Prime Minister's statement last Tuesday, while public money is lavished on the railways where there is no public demand. It is impossible to imagine a more topsy-turvy set of priorities.
    The commonsense, businesslike way of doing things would be to allow the railways to reduce in size as, in the past, the canals were allowed to reduce in size because there was no more demand for them at their former size. Unfortunately, that is not the way in which the Government have proceeded.
    The Minister hopes, without conceding anything to the changed requirements of transport, to get these figures—which must be a great embarrassment to the Government—to look a little better next year by two very dubious financial expedients which will merely conceal the burden on the public without removing or lightening it in any way. First of all, the Government intend to step up the cost of road traffics to such an extent that some of them may come back on to the rail, and this switch, let it be marked, will be achieved by penalising the roads, not by making rail more efficient. This switch will mean an extra cost to industry, not just of a financial nature but administratively and in reliability.
    The extra cost shown in this Supplementary Estimate makes utter nonsense of the Government's call for an export drive in the Dunkirk, back-to-the-wall spirit. It is quite impossible to respond to that kind of call from the Government when one sees the Government wasting money like this.
    The second way in which the Government hope to make the figures look a little better next year is to conceal them; and sweep them under the carpet by getting local authorities to pay some of the costs, but the bill will in any case be just as big—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Gentleman is

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    getting beyond the Supplementary Estimate. He is now talking of next year's Estimates and, indeed, of matters in regard to legislation now before the House. Neither is permissible in a debate on Supplementary Estimates.
    Mr. Galbraith: With the very greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, your predecessor in the Chair allowed a few remarks on these subjects. I am not really going very wide, and my speech is quite short. I was only indicating why I am opposed to this Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have read my predecessor's remarks to the House on these matters. Incidental references I would allow, but certainly nothing beyond that.
    Mr. Galbraith: Naturally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will follow your Ruling, but we on this side want to know why there should be this great subsidy of £136 million, which is what the Supplementary Estimates amount to, for the users of transport. That is what the Government have to justify, and it will be very, difficult for them to do so.
    Just last week we were told that in Scotland only 7 per cent. of the population were using rail and that 59 per cent. were using buses, and I take it that the figures for England are very much the same. I do not know the exact cost to the country of maintaining this service for 7 per cent. of the population—perhaps the Minister can tell us—but it must be a very large percentage of the £166 million. Perhaps £50 million or £60 million is used to maintain railways that are not wanted—
    Mr. John Morris: I should like to be perfectly aware of where the hon. Gentleman stands. I seem to sense a difference in emphasis between himself and his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor). Is he for or against investment in British Railways? Does he want to close a large number of railway lines in Scotland?
    Mr. Galbraith: What I want—and if the Minister will wait a moment I shall come to my point—is to get rid of this waste of money. I consider a Supplementary Estimate of £166 million a gross waste of money, and the Minister, in-
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    stead of looking so pleased with himself, should be hanging his head in shame.
    Mr. John Morris: The hon. Gentleman complained about the very large amount of railway lines in Scotland for the number of passengers using them. Does he want to get rid of a large number of railway lines in Scotland?
    Mr. Galbraith: If the Parliamentary Secretary will just keep himself in control for one minute he will get an answer to that question when I come to that portion of my speech. This is an utterly ridiculous and unjustifiable extravagance. This indiscriminate subsidy policy of the Government is at the root of a good deal of the country's present economic troubles.
    There has been a lot of talk recently, and to a certain extent in this debate, on social benefits, but as the hon. Member for Oldham, East will be aware—and the Minister, too—the Geddes Committee, which went into the matter carefully, reported that
    "methods of calculating social costs are in their infancy."
    It seems to me that, like most of the concepts of economists, the concept of social benefit can be used to prove almost anything one likes, and I am not any more convinced than the hon. Member for Oldham, East is that this is a good reason for keeping lines open.
    Even more alarming than the rail figures are the figures for London Transport because they indicate the sort of burden which the Minister is preparing for other regions. A subsidy amounting to the colossal figure of £11 million is required to run in London what is very little different from one of the Minister's new P.T.A.s. With this costly example before us, why should the Minister think that the P.T.A.s will be a success? All experience in the past indicates that these will be an expensive failure, and that the public ownership which now exists in London is quite irrelevant to the solution of problems of transport. With these startling figures before us, Parliament should take a stand against the pretensions of the Executive and say that we will just not go on paying these indiscriminate subsidies.
    "Travellers as a class are not particularly needy people any more than people who buy clothes, or kitchen utensils."

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    Here I am quoting—
    "On what ground should they, as a class, be subsidised? The fundamental principle must be accepted that transport is itself not a social service; it is a consumer good. To ensure that the produce is available in the right quantities with no shortages and no waste, it is essential to charge a price which, as nearly as possible, represents the true cost of production."
    That piece of advice, curiously enough—and the Minister will be interested to know this—comes from Socialist Commentary. I wish that the Government would study it and take it very much to heart. If people want services they must be prepared to pay for them. This applies particularly to London Transport. To succour London Transport to the extent of £11 million per annum makes nonsense of any distribution of population policy, which I always understood some sections of the Government believe in.
    It is not so much transport that needs co-ordinating and integrating as the Government, because one arm of the Government does something entirely contrary to what another arm is trying to do. It is this sort of sentimental unbusinesslike approach to London which causes the growth of nationalistic feelings in other parts of the United Kingdom which is causing the party opposite so much trouble and harm. It is in their own party interest that they should look at this. The Minister will be well aware of it, because he comes from Wales, as I am and I come from Scotland.
    The country cannot go on paying a subsidy for railways amounting to over 6d. on the Income Tax, particularly when neither freight nor passengers require this colossal infrastructure any longer. This extravagance in transport represented by this £166 million extra has gone on for far too long. Until we get a great deal closer to a position where we can get what we pay for, I am very much afraid that this country will continue its unsuccessful struggle to get out of the financial quagmire which excessive Government expenditure such as this has landed it in. If I could get my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) and other hon. Friends to stand by me, I would feel inclined to divide the House against the Government.
    6.12 p.m.
    Mr. Julian Ridsdale: When listening to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary I found it very difficult to see the wood for the trees. He emitted so much smoke that I almost thought the railways were back in the steam age.
    I would be far happier if I knew that the admirable Dr. Beeching was still at the head of British Railways, because then I would be certain that we could be sure of getting value for money for this deficit of £153 million, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) who so excellently opened the debate, is a national disaster. Coming so shortly after the cuts in Government expenditure, and not being able to find further cuts, it is the bounden duty of each of us to inquire in great detail into the Supplementary Estimates and to get a far better explanation than we have heard from the Parliamentary Secretary.
    One of the things which worries me, representing as I do Harwich which has a considerable railway population, is the low morale in British Railways. It goes right through from the top to the lowest-paid worker. How much more confidence would the lowest-paid worker have if he knew that there was at the head of British Railways someone like Dr. Beeching who had a knowledge of how a large business could operate. Much as I appreciate and know the present Chairman of British Railways with all the experience he has, I wonder if it is the kind of experience we need to administer a great industry, such as this man has to do, excellent man though he be in many respects.
    I am sure that the reason we have not the right man at the head of British Railways today is that the Government have not had the courage to pay the economic price for him. In the same way we see that there have been vast reductions in manpower on the railways and yet the wage bill is approximately the same. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if this Supplementary Estimate of £30 million is in any way connected with across the industry wage rises? I hope that it is not. We have had another explanation which I shall deal with in detail later.

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    I agree very much with my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) that it is vital to support success and not failure. In my constituency there is one of the best railway ports. I welcome the investment which has been made in the port of Parkstone by British Railways, but what disturbs me is that we have not been ever able to get a detailed account of how the operating costs of that port works. I should like the men at Parkstone to be paid more because they are making a profit and not to be subsidising some other part of the country in making a loss. This is the way to success, pay for skill and hard work and for the men to see the result of that work in their own port.
    No wonder the private enterprise port at Harwich navy yard and Felixstowe port go ahead while the British Railways port at Parkstone goes down and as a consequence we have to face a deficit of £22 million in the Supplementary Estimate and £153 million on the railways as a whole. This is because, alas, we are too subsidy-minded and we are frightened to look at economic costs. We are frightened by the real price in the market place. We have to face competition in the world in order to pay our way and we have to look at the facts of reality in the face. Until we do so we shall have deficits such as the one we are discussing. Looking at the hard facts of reality I have considered the long-term trend of prices to see what was happening in the long term to British Railways. I see that the receipts from freight in 1957 were £353 million. Receipts from freight in 1966 amounted to £275 million. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what they were in 1967 or for the latest available date. The amount of tonnage taken by British Railways in 1957 was 275 million tons and in 1966 it was 213 million tons.
    British Railways has increased fares for commuters. These receipts are double what they were in 1957. Dare the railways charge a higher price for some of the traffic coming to them? If not, does this not show that the railways are not using the best economic way of carrying the load? I am rather in favour of what w as said by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) about looking at facts in the market place. We cannot any longer be a country which subsidises this and that.
    Mr. A. H. Macdonald: As the hon. Member is concerned with facing these realities, would he care to face the reality of the situation of the costs of the commuter services in London? If, as he suggested, fares were to be put up further what would be the effect on wages and salaries'?
    Mr. Ridsdale: I am saying that we have to improve the efficiency of the service. I am sure that if we could do that we should get things right. This is a small part of the revenue. The revenue from the commuter service increased from £16 million in 1957 to £32 million in 1966, but the revenue with which we are involved here was £353 million in 1957 and £275 million in 1966. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary is right; it is the freight problem that is important and the crux is how we deal with it. It is because of failure to face the economic realities that we have to discuss this huge deficit.
    I am conscious that other hon. Gentlemen wish to speak and that we shall be discussing other very important Supplementary Estimates, for the Army and the Navy, and I am sure that in those cases also more reality is needed than we hear from Ministers at the moment. I am convinced that the Government must support success and not failure. As I did at the beginning, I stress the importance of morale in the railways and the importance of ensuring that correct leadership is there and that proper reward is given to management and lower-paid workers. When that is done we shall get an efficient industry, but not until it is done.
    6.21 p.m.
    Miss J. M. Quennell: I am almost heartbroken that the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp) has at last left the Chamber. It appears that hon. Members opposite are not keen to take part in the debate. Indeed, there do not seem to be many of them present. One can perhaps assume that they are all in the Library writing letters to their Chief Whip, and that will probably explain his absence, too.
    The hon. Member for Oldham, East produced some very interesting ideas which I thought were of some importance and worthy of consideration. His remark that the heads of the B.T.Cs. after

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    the 1947 Act were over-influenced by the Governments of the day was, I thought, true, and I think that that over-influence tends still to have its sway today.
    The Minister referred to the difference between the passenger receipts and the Estimate as being only marginal. This may be true; but a marginal difference on Estimates amounting to hundreds of millions of £s is nevertheless a large sum of money. I suggest that in this aspect of the railway service there are certain losses that could be made good. Passengers do not now travel by train as readily or willingly or as eagerly as they should do. The reasons are very clear. Certainly in the South of England passengers very often find that conditions on passenger trains are, to say the least, unattractive. The facilities are very often unpleasant. The sanitary arrangements on the trains are nauseous. The accommodation for refreshment is inadequate. One has to stand in a swaying coach trying to eat a potted meat pie of some description, holding it in one hand while clutching a gin and tonic in the other, and that at 60 m.p.h. is not good for one's digestion and cannot be described as comfortable.
    The British Railways Board spends a considerable amount of money on advertising. I believe that it would get better results if it cut the advertising and concentrated on making the passenger comfortable once he is in the train. I also believe that it would get far better results if it could get its trains to run to the advertised timetables. In recent months a new timetable has been introduced in the Southern Region, and it has produced some chaotic results.
    It is not to be marvelled at that the passengers have no confidence in the ability of the management to run its trains to time and that the staff have, very unfairly I think, had to take the brunt of the passengers' legitimate grievances, taking the kicks and not getting many halfpence out of it. There appears to be no real prospect of the passenger trains running to time. I think that the Minister will find that if the Board makes the trains reasonably clean and comfortable internally the receipts will begin to rise. One of the first steps in improving the deficit position should be to increase receipts where it can be done, and I
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    suggest that the Minister should try this as a beginning.
    Mr. John Morris: I am very interested in what the hon. Lady is saying and very conscious of its importance. None of us on either side would differ from her in what she is saying. But, after all, at the end of the day there is certain responsibility on the Minister and certain responsibility on the Board. I am sure that due weight will be given to what she has said, but I must point out that it is not the Minister's responsibility to interfere with management on this scale.
    Miss Quennell: That is an interesting point. I will give the hon. Gentleman an example. Between the end of July and the beginning of December 177 trains that were scheduled to arrive in Alton Town from Waterloo got lost on the way and did not get there. The hon. Gentleman says that this is nothing to do with him. Is it not? Is not dislocation of service of this magnitude anything to do with him? I wonder.
    Mr. John Morris: I will tell the hon. Lady where the Minister's responsibility lies. The railways operate under the doctrine of the 1962 Act which charges the railway management with certain responsibilities and the Minister with certain responsibilities. I would be the first to concede, as we discussed at Question Time the other day, that there is an avenue through which passengers can make complaints, to the T.U.C.C., from which recommendations can be made to the Minister. Apart from these very narrow limits laid down in the Act passed by hon. Members opposite, all these matters are the responsibility of the Railways Board.
    Miss Quennell: The hon. Gentleman rightly says that the T.U.C.Cs are an avenue for passenger complaints. But the T.U.C.Cs., I am sure he will agree, are inclined to examine the arguments for the closing of lines and the quality of service. I also think that he will agree that the T.U.C.C. in my area has a part-time unremunerated chairman who is an insurance broker by profession, and that he has 22 colleagues who are all unremunerated, and that they have all been swamped by the complaints that have been poured in upon them in the last six

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    months, and that the problem has suddenly overwhelmed them.
    When the Minister says that the actual management of trains is a matter for the railway management, what he is really saying is that if 177 trains do not reach their destination he is still not involved with the actual management of the railways. But he also said that under the 1962 Act certain responsibility was laid upon the railway management and certain responsibility upon the Minister. Does he not agree that there comes a time when the Minister must look at her responsibilities under the 1962 Act?
    Mr. John Morris: I should have though that that is exactly what we are to do in the Transport Bill which begins Its pas: age through Standing Committee tomorrow.
    Miss Quennell: I have a nasty feeling that if we were to pursue this debate for much longer you would rule us out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary is now guilty of a real red herring, not a false trail. The point is that we have, as a nation, got a railway service in which it would appear that no one can influence either Board or Minister should the quality of the service fall below that which the passengers expect and have a right to look for. This is what the hon. Gentleman has implied. It is a constitutional matter of great importance, but I think that you would be leaping to your feet if we were to pursue it.
    I will not take up more time except to comment on the phrase used by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale), who called it the hard face of reality. The hard face is simply this. If the Minister will make the service attractive to the passenger she will find that the marginal deficit which she has on passenger receipts over estimates will evaporate very quickly. Give the people what they want and they will repay handsomely.
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Philip Goodhart: I am indebted to the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) for at least bringing one success story into this debate. Hitherto the debate has been unrelieved by any story of success by British Railways, apart from the charm-
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    ing intervention of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, when he revealed that, thanks to the freightliners, the Government were now able to send their dirty laundry to Scotland to be washed.
    I am reminded of the charming intervention made by the hon. and learned Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) in last week's debate on the Government cuts, when he said that the Government had had so much bad luck that he was almost inclined to believe that God must be a Conservative. If we pursue this line of reasoning it must follow that God does not travel very often on the Southern Region of British Railways. Certainly by any standard Southern Region has had appalling luck in the last 12 months.
    As the management has said, the commuting public has had to put up with unprecedented burdens. In the last 12 months there has been a guards strike, there have been go-slows, there has been a new timetable which does not work, and there has been a work-to-rule. As the Joint Parliamentary Secretary told us this afternoon, we were fortunate enough to have a mild winter last year, while this winter we have been unfortunate enough to have snow. So, one can see that British Railways' cup is filled to overflowing.
    Is it really all due to bad luck'? I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of the senior executives of Southern Region. They are men of charm and no doubt of great ability, but after one looks at the size of the deficit, and at the quality of the service provided, one wonders whether there is any reason at all why they should do better in the future than they have done in the immediate past.
    If private enterprise had been concerned with a fiasco of this proportion there would have been a major shake-up and heads would have rolled. But has anyone been dismissed because of the recent failures in Southern Region? Has anyone been demoted, or have their salaries been reduced in any way? The answer is most certainly, "No". The only way in which senior management in the Railway Boards can now be removed is by disagreement with the Minister, over questions of individual initiative and competence.
    It would appear that there is in this region, as regrettably there is throughout

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    so much of nationalised industry, a lack of personal responsibility. This is reflected in the size of the deficits and the quality of the service.
    Mr. Mapp: In a sense of fairness—the hon. Member has said that he had seen, presumably with others, officials of Southern Region. In dismissing what they might have said, he is now, broadly speaking, censuring them. I wonder whether he would do a service to the House and be good enough to let us know what explanation the officials have given for this bad service to which he has referred?
    Mr. Goodhart: The principal reason that is put forward, in public and in private, by the Southern Region officials, is that they are trying to carry more commuters in a more restricted region than in any other area in the world. They have tried to squeeze more trains into the proverbial pint pot.
    If this had worked it would have been a great feather in the caps of those officials responsible and all credit to them. But it has not worked; it has been a failure. In private enterprise one can reward those who succeed, and at the same time one can deal with failure. In the Southern Region there would not have been very much reward if this timetable reorganisation had worked. No doubt there would have been a good mark on the report sheets of these officials but there would not have been any substantial reward. At the same time one sees no penalty. It would seem that everyone goes on in exactly the same way as before.
    After the events of the last 12 months I do not believe that the Southern Region can give to the harried commuters of London a better service under the present system, under the present chiefs. What is needed is a new lead, new management at the top and, after all this, we desperately need more investment to try to unclog the crowded trains that for years to come will make daily travelling into London an obstacle race rather than a smooth passage.
    6.40 p.m.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I sympathise with hon. Members who have been discussing the problems of Southern
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    Region, but I assure them that the Southern Region is now, like the Southern Railway before it, rather different from the other railway regions. The problems are quite different, Southern Region being the only region which depends on passenger fares for its revenue. The deficit which we are discussing now, however, arises not on passenger fares but on goods traffic. In my region, the Western Region, we have no complaints either as to unpunctuality of trains or as to their being dirty. Western Region's trains are clean and punctual, and they are running at greater speed than they did before the war.
    It is most regrettable that we have to debate these Estimates at all this week, after our debates of last week. We are asked to provide another£30 million in respect of British Railways and London Transport, a very large sum, and the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that a good part of it is due to a deficit on British Railways. These deficits are partly responsible for our need to have the debates last week, of course, because it has been excess Government expenditure which has largely contributed to the country's financial trouble.
    It could be said that any debates on Supplementary Estimates are debates about water which has already gone under the bridge. But the point we make from this side is that it should not have gone under the bridge. It should have been diverted into a more profitable irrigation channel. We object to these Estimates and criticise them on that ground. There is very little excuse for the railway deficit being as large as it is. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested several reasons why the deficit had arisen. Others were referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor), who reminded the House of five different reasons which had been stated in the First Report of the Estimates Committee. But there is another reason which has hardly been touched on and not explicitly mentioned at all, namely, that the Beeching Plan was abandoned before it was fully implemented.
    I was interested to note that the Parliamentary Secretary chose the year 1962 and observed that the railway deficit then was£159 million. That was the year before the Conservative Act of 1962 came

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    into force and before the Beeching Plan had come into operation. The Beeching Plan resulted in the deficit being reduced to£133 million in 1963 and to£120 million in 1964. Had it gone on, the deficit would, no doubt, have been reduced further. In other words, the Beeching Plan was working in reducing the deficit, and it is only since a change of Government and since Beeching went that the deficit has started to rise again, now reaching£155,800,000.
    Today, and in previous debates recently—the Parliamentary Secretary did it today—the Opposition have been challenged about subsidising uneconomic railway lines for social reasons. In fact, contrary to popular belief, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) appointed Dr. Beeching and asked him to produce a plan, he did not ask him for a plan to make the railways pay. The remit set out at the beginning of the Beeching Report shows that what Dr. Beeching was asked to do was to review the needs of the country's transport as it then was and to recommend what pattern of railway lines would be viable.
    Dr. Beeching did that in his Report, but he also made clear—this appears more than once in the Report—that he admitted that there would be cases where an uneconomic line might have to be preserved for social reasons, for instance, that it would be less expensive to maintain an uneconomic commuter service than to build a new urban motorway, or, in a rural area where there were very few roads, it might be cheaper to keep a rural line going than build the necessary roads, or, as a matter of strategic requirement, it might be advisable from a military point of view to keep certain lines open to supply certain depots, and so on. All these matters were mentioned in the Beeching Report, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey never dissented from them. It was always recognised that certain uneconomic lines might have to be kept open. But neither my right hon. Friend nor Dr. Beeching ever envisaged that any large number of lines or any substantial part of the railways would have to be kept as a subsidised service.
    We on this side have never accepted that the railways should be a social service. One accepts old-age pensions
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    as a social service because everybody becomes old. We accept that the National Health Service may be a social service and be applied universally in the country because everyone may need it and it is necessary even in remote areas. But we do not accept that railways are a social service. There never was a time, and it is not such a time now, when everyone could have a railway service, and it is unfair to provide one for some people at the general expense of many people who have not got a railway service, never had one and do not want it. Yet this Supplementary Estimate does just that. It is to provide a subsidy for some people to have a service which is not otherwise paying.
    Transport is never an end in itself. It is always a means to an end. One cannot say that there is a need for a railway from London to Manchester or between any other two points. It may be a convenience. It may cost less to go by rail than by some other means, but there are many other means by which one can travel from one point to another. In that sense, one cannot say that it is a necessity. By and large, those who find it cheaper or more convenient to go by rail should be expected to pay for it. However, because this principle is not accepted, Supplementary Estimates such as these arise, and, under existing Government policy, they will continue to arise.
    Several hon. Members have observed that the Transport Bill which is to begin its Committee stage tomorrow conceals a lot of the costs which will arise out of railway services. But the costs will still be there, and, unless the railways pay their way or come nearer to doing so, it will be the taxpayer in the long run who has to find the money.
    Last Tuesday, the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) chided me for making a speech which, he said, he had heard before in 1950. He passed that comment because I was referring to certain historical events and experiences regarding the Great Western Railway. Of course he had heard it before. The trouble with right hon. and hon. Members opposite is that, although they know the facts and have heard them all before, they take no notice of them. Their trouble is not that they are stupid or

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    ignorant but that they are inveterate deductive thinkers, judging what to do next not by their experience of what has gone before but deducing their policy from some slogan or other and trying to make the slogan fit the facts.
    In the case of transport, the slogan is usually either integration or nationalisation. Instead of seeing that the Beeching Plan was working and reducing the deficit, they abandoned it and then the deficits began to rise. They did not learn from that either. If they had appreciated the true state of affairs, they would have gone back to the Beeching Plan, and we would not have had these Estimates before us. We ought not to be called upon to find money to meet a deficit which has arisen out of a mistaken policy.
    The new Bill which is to go to Committee tomorrow contains all sorts of provisions which, as I say, will conceal the costs of running the railways. It is possible that we may not be faced with a deficit of this sort again and be asked to vote a Supplementary Estimate. But the deficit will still be there. Unless we get a better explanation than we have had so far, it is questionable whether we should support the Supplementary Estimate. At least, we have reason to criticise it thoroughly.
    6.50 p.m.
    Mr. Frederick Silvester: If I may speak briefly about an impression which has struck me from the debate, which is the first time that I have heard a debate on Supplementary Estimates on the railways, it has become clear as various hon. Members have spoken that the basic factor behind this new Supplementary Estimate has been the intervention of the Government in the management of British Railways. One of the dangers of intervention is not merely the deficit of£30 million, but the effect of the deficit on the operation of the railways.
    The deficit is bad as a deficit because of two effects which it has on management. It debilitates the management, and in part it arises from Government interference with management. The 1962 Act placed upon the Railways Board the objective of trying to be financially viable by 1970. It may well be that there are occasions on which a Government may
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    decide, for one reason or another, to subsidise lines in certain parts of the country. They may describe it in their new Bill as being a subsidy for socal reasons. Even in their existing reports, however, British Railways make it clear that they are being forced to bear these costs for social reasons. The Bill, therefore, does not really make much change in that direction.
    What is happening now, however, is that we are taking away from the railways the objective of financial stringency and asking them to co-operate in devising a scheme whereby they may from the very beginning be loaded with social costs. The Supplementary Estimates fall into that pattern.
    Secondly, the deficit arises from Government interference with management. At some point in the debate, we heard about the 11,000 route miles. In my constituency, there is a line which the original plan threatened, would be a freight-only line and would cease to carry passengers. If that proposal goes through, I and hon. Members opposite who share the same line will make a fuss, kick up a lot of noise and hope to save the passenger side of the line. It is our job to do that. We will deploy the arguments with all the strength we can. It is not the job of British Railways to do that. It is their job to look at it as a commercial proposition and try to make sure that they are not called upon to bear costs which it is no longer possible for them to bear.
    The danger of the present approach is that British Railways are being asked to co-operate in a system which from the outset includes in their thinking the permanent carrying of lines which will no longer be commercially viable.
    One last example of the way in which the deficit and Government interference go together in British Railways, and the bad effect which there is likely to be on management, is the example, which has been quoted several times this afternoon, of the freightliner. It is clear that there are certain aspects of British Railways management which are the fruits of their imagination and are likely to be the growth points of the industry for the future. In the debate in June, also on the deficit, the Minister said that the freightliner formed a major part of the

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    plan to divert resources from the traditional traffics which were declining to the new and expanding traffics which represented the future of the railways. Those are to be taken away.
    It seems to me, therefore, that not only are the Government imposing on management in British Railways burdens which it is not fair for them to bear, but they are also taking away from the railways the opportunities in which their future lies. Both of these arise because of the continuing deficit which Parliament is asked continuously to support and because Governments and Parliament still continuously interfere.
    One thing which has emerged today, perhaps most forcibly from the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp), is that this debate goes on in generalities, whereas the future of British Railways depends upon detail and the detailed application or imaginative policies which are practicable to attract traffic, both passenger and freight, to the railways. Debates of this kind will not solve that.
    The solution lies in choosing the right men in the railways and allowing them to do the job with the minimum of Government interference. We are talking not simply about the£30 million of the Supplementary Estimate, but the effect of continuing to come to the House of Commons for authority to finance the deficit and the effect which this has on interference by the Government in the management of British Railways.
    6.56 p.m.
    Mr. Peter Walker: The few hours that the House has spent on this Supplementary Estimate have been of considerable importance. It was impressive to witness speech after speech from the benches opposite, crowded and seething with indignation that all this money had been spent and that if it had been saved it would have obviated the introduction of prescription charges. It has been impressive to hear the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) and all his colleagues, one after another, pointing out that the railway deficit this year is equivalent to about six years of prescription charges.
    Likewise, it has been impressive to w to the deep interest of Treasury Ministers as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and several other Treasury Min-
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    isters have been in constant attendance taking note of all the points which have been made and obviously expressing their concern and worry at£155 million of the taxpayers' money being spent on the railway deficit.
    Then there was the speech of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. It was the best attempt to turn defeat into triumph since the Prime Minister's television broadcast on devaluation. As the hon. Gentleman went through his speech, he told us that it was extremely good that only another£30 million was needed and that it could have been very much worse. It is true, he said, that the Government have let the railways down badly but that the degree to which they have let the railways down is of such enormous proportion that it is remarkable that the railways have lost only£30 million more than they had budgeted for.
    Mr. John Morris: For the sake of the record, the hon. Member will, I am sure, be the first to concede that his last paragraph is a measure of all the other paragraphs that he has uttered so far in his speech.
    Mr. Walker: I must have misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. I thought I heard him say that the reason for this enormous increase in the deficit was that industrial production last year did not rise to the degree that the Government expected. Have the Government by any chance decided that besides having no responsibility for British Railways, they have no responsibility for the economy as well? I only wish that they did not have any responsibility for the economy, but, alas, they do and the nation and the railways have suffered accordingly.
    The hon. Gentleman showed his one great skill in the principle of selectivity. I am tired of hearing him and all his Ministerial colleagues mention only the one deficit figure for 1962. It is interesting that they never mention 1963 or 1964. As the Joint Parliamentary Secretary well knows, in 1963 the railway deficit went down by more than£20 million. In 1964 it went down by another£14 million. Then came the Labour Government and the trend was vigorously reversed, and now it is rising steeply.
    What is frightening when we have Estimates like this is the appalling lack of reliance that one can ever place on

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    Government estimates. The Report of the Estimates Committee particularly points out the number of occasions the railways have been wrong in their estimates and have come for more money, but the Government first of all in September, 1965, made in their National Plan a forecast for the railways.
    We were told off, chastised, by Ministers for not having the faith and belief in the National Plan which they thought we should have had. After all, it was to provide us with extra television sets and refrigerators! As for the railways, we were told that by 1970 we should get rid of their working deficit, and the Government listed the ways in which they would do it. That was September, 1965. In 1966 the railways' deficit rose. Therefore, the trend indicated in the National Plan looked, to say the least, suspect, but we thought, "Well, 1967 will be a better year. We have this rebust Minister at the Ministry of Transport, and all sorts of wonderful things are being said about the railways, and their freightliner trains, and so on, and about a new spirit on the railways."
    So we could have anticipated that 1967 would, perhaps, be a better year and that the trend would improve as it had done in the last two years of the Conservative Government. We were disappointed, therefore, when in 1967 the Minister said in the House of Commons that the railways' deficit was not going to improve during 1967 and that things were going to be about the same. I remember how disappointed we were when she told us there would be no improvement in 1967. If we had been told not only that there was to be no improvement but a considerable deterioration in the railways' deficit, that would indeed have made nonsense of all the boasts being made about improvements taking place in British Railways.
    What we are concerned about is that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's speech and the speeches of the Minister herself show no indication that the problem of this increasing deficit and of this enormous Supplementary Estimate is going to be tackled. Therefore I ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for his comments on a few major points.
    Firstly, on the labour force, which has been reduced over a period of years.
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    There was recently the Government inquiry that took place and Cooper Brothers, the firm of City accountants, have reported on the financing of the railways and have made comments, I gather, in their report as to the labour force. Moreover, Mr. Fiennes has written an article and has indicated that the labour force could be reduced by 100,000 men. I want the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to say what he considers will happen to the labour force of British Railways in the future, because this overmanning must be one of the great problems about the deficit.
    Secondly, will he take note of the remarks of his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp) and of everybody else connected with the railways and consider that, in the morale of the railways a salient point is taking away from them the freightliner trains. and will he consider keeping them with them?
    Thirdly, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary gave some figures about the sale of property assets, and, if I remember them rightly, they showed a quite big decline last year compared with the previous year. Will the hon. Gentleman say, when are the railways going to be able fully to exploit their enormous assets? I cite as one example of these the major termini in London, where we have London Bridge, Victoria, Euston, Paddington, St. Pancras and Kings Cross, at all of which there could be developed offices and hotels and arrangements whereby passengers could come straight into the stations without further congesting the streets of London. When will the railways be given much greater freedom to develop these enormous property assets?
    Finally—and this very much affects the Estimates for 1967—there is the question of top management. As for that, the Minister announced that she was not going to appoint the person she had as her first choice as Chairman of British Railways, because he wanted a higher salary than that which was available. Mr. Johnson is a very distinguished railwayman, and I want to wish him every possible success. Indeed, he made a very fine job of the work of electrification on the Midland Region. What I want to know is, having decided that Mr. Johnson should be Chairman of British Railways,

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    are the Government going substantially to increase his salary, so that he can recruit underneath him men of high calibre with appropriately high salaries for managing this enormous industrial task? Or is it now the firm policy of the Government for the foreseeable future to peg the salary of the chairmanship of British Railways at this figure?
    The tragedy of the last year in which this enormous Supplementary Estimate is being asked for is the effect all this has had on British Railways. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale), my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor)—in his very able, held opening speech today—have all mentioned the adverse effects which have taken place in the last year on British Railways. They are of course deeply depressed at the thought that the British public are again being asked for another£30 million to meet these deficits, and that now for some months the railwaymen hive suffered the humiliation of watching the bickering over their Chairman's salary; and they have been able to read in the newspapers of the appalling manner in which the previous Chairman was treated by the Government, and the way in which he was taken out of a union meeting and told he was no longer to be kept in the job.
    Therefore, we have the picture at the end of 1967 and the beginning of 1968 of the railways having a steep rise in their deficit with no sign in the Minister's statement of a turndown of this, with labour relations strained and at their worst ebb, with a great deal of confidence lost. I appeal to the Government really to set about allowing the railways to develop their assets, to retain their freightliner trains, to attract the best in management for this great industry. I appeal to the Government really to tackle these problems—not in a doctrinaire fashion, but by good, sound, practical administration.
    7.7 p.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Neil Carmichael): I think everyone will agree that we have had a very full discussion of these Supplementary Estimates for transport, and I think that perhaps every-
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    one will also agree that this discussion has taken rather more of the day than had been expected, and that there are some hon. Members who have been waiting very patiently to debate other important Estimates and that, therefore, I ought now to answer as quickly as possible.
    I will deal with as many of the points which have been raised as I can. I think it is important to realise that, although debates such as this have a great deal of value, it may be that in the future the House will find another way of looking at Supplementary Estimates, a way which, perhaps, will be more exacting and more streamlined than this. I am not by any means criticising anybody, but I have heard some hon. Members in the Corridor saying, "There must be a better way."
    The hon. Member for Petersfield (Miss Quennell) discussed the question of the rights of the Minister regarding the Board. I am not quite sure whether she wished almost to duplicate the Railways Board, a duplication to be created at St. Christopher's House to look after the questions which are raised and to reinforce the Minister in her decisions on railways—but, perhaps, if I continue much longer with the duet which the hon. Member had with my hon. Friend I shall be ruled out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
    Miss Quennell: I hope the hon. Member has not got me wrong. What I was trying to persuade his hon. Friend of was that if he improved conditions for passengers he would improve receipts.
    Mr. Carmichael: I got the point, but, as I said, it developed into a duet between my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady, and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I saw you edging towards the edge of your Chair to bring it to a close.
    The hon. Member for Glasgow, Hill-head (Mr. Galbraith) spoke about services being reduced and said that, to some extent, there were falls in demands. But falls in services cannot all happen at once. Allowance has to be made for the estimated long-term demands. In the case of coal, for instance, there has been considerable co-operation between the Railways Board and the coal industry. From the point of view of railway receipts, no one can be happy about the

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    fall in the amount of coal sent by rail and the new forecasts. From now on, the Government having established a target for coal, the Railways Board will be closely associated with all the developments to help it to estimate future demand. The Board is planning for a reduction in coal traffic in accordance with the declining forecasts in the coal industry.
    As the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) said, there is no doubt that the shortfall in freight is the key to the Supplementary Estimate which we are putting forward. Passenger receipts are remarkably accurate, being only 0·2 per cent. out, but it is important to realise that the railways cannot be divorced from the rest of the economy. The carriage of freight is very dependent upon the activities of the rest of the community.
    The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Geoffrey Wilson) and another hon. Member spoke at length about the Beeching closures, as they are now known. Perhaps it would be valuable to give hon. Members the figure. The closures accounted for something like£17 million per annum. If the Beeching closures had still been going on, it is estimated that the shortfall would have been something like£17 million less. That, considering the upheaval which was caused, is not something which we should consider worth while in terms of the deficit which we have.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the deficit in 1967 was£27 million. Is he saying, in other words, that, of that£27 million,£17 million was as a result of not carrying out the Beeching proposals?
    Mr. Carmichael: The point is that the effect of the Beeching closures was that the saving achieved from them was at the rate of£17 million per annum.
    Mr. Galbraith: That figure of£17 million is a very interesting one. I assume that it is£17 million multiplied by three; in other words,£51 million.
    Mr. Carmichael: It would be£17 million now. The cumulative effect today would have been£17 million a year.
    Turning to the very interesting speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp), I will not deal
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    with his question about track costs, which I have heard before and which my right hon. Friend the Minister has answered on a number of occasions. However, I will refer in passing to the very important inquiry which is to be held into the recent accident. Mr. Gibben's terms of reference are not only to investigate the accident, but also to look into the general safety of automatic half-barriers at level crossings. As for my hon. Friend's suggestions about the very big increase in speeds which is likely to affect questions of safety, without presuming to prejudge the reactions of the tribunal, I am sure that such matters will be taken into account in its deliberations.
    The other important point raised in the course of the debate concerned the labour force. There have been savings, and they will continue. The estimate for last year was that there would be a reduction of 15,000 in the labour force. In fact, the reduction was 20,000. In the course of the debate on the deficit of British Railways on 26th June, 1967, my hon. Friend gave some figures and said:
    "The industry has seen a massive contraction in its labour force, from 503.000 to 361,000 in four years, and further reductions are inevitable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th June, 1967; Vol. 749, c. 161.]
    As many hon. Members have said, the industry has gone through a very difficult time in the changing circumstances of the modern world, with the introduction of so many other ways of travel. In going through those difficulties, it has been quite remarkable that the morale of railwaymen has been so good. I do not believe that it is quite as appalling as many hon. Members opposite would suggest. For the first time there is a feeling of hope in the industry, and railwaymen to whom I have spoken feel that at least they will be considered as an integrated part of a modern transport industry and not always be the little brothers of the business. They feel that they are able to do a job which will be of benefit to the entire community.
    I am sorry that in the course of the debate no hon. Member referred to London Transport, although it forms part of the Supplementary Estimate—
    Mr. Galbraith: I did.
    Mr. Carmichael: I was out of the Chamber for a few minutes and did not

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    hear the hon. Gentleman. I will make a point of reading what he said and discussing it with him.
    It is part of the Supplementary Estimate, and an interesting point about it is that some of the increased deficit has come about due to an improvement in services given to the public. In the first place, there was a considerable easing of the chronic recruitment figures which the Board experienced during the year. That led to the tilling of vacancies at Underground stations and, more significantly, to a higher percentage of bus schedules being operated, particularly in the Central area, than was thought probable at the time that the budget was prepared. The increased services have had the effect of arresting the long-term decline in the number of bus passengers, and the Board estimates that it will finish the year having carried roughly the same volume of traffic as it did in 1966.
    I felt that some reference should be made to London Transport. The waterways have been mentioned by a number of hon. Members, and the Railways have been dealt with very fully in the course of the debate. I am sure that everyone has benefited from the discussion.
    Finally, I want to stress the importance of keeping the Beeching savings in their proper perspective, important though they are. One of the threads going through speeches on both sides of the House has been that, if we had kept Beeching, all would have been well.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson Mr. Geoffrey Wilson rose—
    Mr. Carmichael: The closures are only a small proportion of the great problems of the industry, and they should be kept in perspective.
    I am confident that the remit under the new Transport Bill will be of benefit to railwaymen and to the rest of the nation as a whole. Sometimes, in these debates, we speak in too partisan a way or both sides of the House and denigrate an industry in an attempt to denigrate the party opposite. In today's debate, we have all learned something. In order to allow others to go forward with the subjects for which they have been waiting so patiently, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  CLASS IV, VOTE 17, SUBHEAD J

    ASSISTANCE TO THE COAL INDUSTRY
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding£3,750,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1968, for the expenditure of the Ministry of Power for assistance to the coal industry.—[Mr. Marsh.]
    7.20 p.m.
    Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am not quite sure what the procedure is. As one of my hon. Friends said earlier, it is such an unusual occurrence to probe the winter Supplementary Estimates closely, and we are not sure about the exact procedure to be followed.
    In the Estimate now under discussion we are concerned with a Supplementary Estimate for assistance to the coal industry. The background to this particular Estimate stems from the Coal Industry Bill, which we were discussing shortly before Christmas, which depended upon the Fuel White Paper which was allegedly undergoing further examination with regard to revised figures following upon devaluation and the worsening balance of payments position.
    Therefore, it will be necessary to ask the Minister how his revisions of that White Paper are faring and what new conclusions he has reached, because it directly affects the Estimates which are before the House. I should be grateful if he could tell us what has happened to the White Paper and whether any of the figures in it have been altered. After all, if the Treasury could have a close examination of public expenditure figures and produce its calculations, I imagine that the Ministry of Power will also have had time to produce some conclusions as it was not badly affected by the cuts. That is one of the first questions arising out of the Supplementary Estimates I should like to ask him.
    The second question, to which I will refer briefly, concerns prices. The present Government have constantly talked about the need to keep prices down, but in one of these Estimates we are talking

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    about electricity where the price is artificially higher than it need be because of Government action. One has there a commodity which is supplied to the public at a higher price because of action which the Government have taken. Therefore, they are not wishing to keep down electricity prices. On the contrary, they are raising them. I refer not merely to the recent rise, but to the policy behind the supply of coal to the Central Electricity Generating Board and the Scottish Boards. We pay on the present Estimate in taxpayer's money as well.
    The third background matter is that we have had an allegedly very searching review of public expenditure. If I may put it this way, the mining industry seems to be a sacred cow, because the greatly increased expenditure on the Coal Industry Bill of£133 million does not seem to have been touched; it has come through that public expenditure review virtually unscathed. Some of the expenditure which we approved in that Bill, and which is now the subject of Supplementary Estimates, is exactly the same as it was before the economic crisis.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Marsh): I apologise for interrupting the hon. Lady so early in the proceedings, but she and her colleagues approved the figures in the Supplementary Estimates, which in fact were the figures in the Coal Industry Bill after devaluation. What has happened since then that has changed the position?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Minister will remember that we raised the Fuel White Paper matter during the debate. We were constantly asking him what had happened to his revised Estimates, and he was not in a position to give us a reply. He has now had a number of weeks more to find out what he thinks about it. I hope that he has now come to some conclusions and will tell us during the course of the debate. However, he will be the first to agree that he did not then know the answers about the revisions in the White Paper. Also, if he looks carefully at these Estimates, he will see that they do not give very much detail about the money which is to be spent. I will go into that in a little more detail in discussing each one of them.
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    I put my remarks primarily on the Estimates under two heads. The first concerns pit closures, which is one of the subjects of this particular Supplementary Estimate. The first part of the Supplementary Estimate says:
    "Grants under the Coal Industry Act, 1965, as amended"—
    by the 1967 Act, of course—
    "to National Coal Board in connection with pit closures."
    We are today voting an extra£3,750,000 to the National Coal Board in connection with pit closures. That is virtually all that it says, except that in a later subhead it refers to supplementary payments for certain redundant workers in the coal industry which will also be connected with pit closures.
    The Minister will remember that we did not quarrel in any way with payments to redundant workers in connection with pit closures; but we would like to know a bit more by having some kind of report from the Minister about the direction in which this money is going. He will remember that, in so far as it relates to Section 3 of the Coal Industry Act, 1965, money could be spent under a number of different heads. It could be used where a person from one pit which had closed down was going to work in another; it could be used for travel allowances; it could be used for housing; and it could be used by way of payment to superannuation funds, because a person having to retire early would not have had time to get the maximum number of contributions to qualify for his full pension.
    We are asking—and it is our duty to probe these Estimates—how much has gone on each and how is the whole scheme going? The Supplementary Estimate merely says, "Please we want£3,750,000." How did the Minister arrive at that figure? I hope that he knows or that he has someone in the Box who knows.
    The second head under pit closures concerns payments to certain redundant workers in the coal industry. The Minister will remember that when we had the debate on the Bill the redundant workers' scheme for coal miners had not then been published. He was consulting with the National Union of Mineworkers about its exact shape. It may now have been published, in which case I have not seen it,

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    but I assume again that it is very nearly ready, because there is a token amount for it in this Supplementary Estimate. But does the Minister yet know the shape of hat scheme for which we are today voting a token amount, and presumably in the future will be voting rather larger amounts? We are voting blind. Surely the scheme has been fashioned. Ultimately I suppose it will come before the House, but we should have more news about it. The Minister should be kept up to scratch by keeping the House informed about matters which concern this important industry.
    The third matter under the head of pit closures—and perhaps the Minister will be able to tell me—is how much of this Supplementary Estimate is due to the 16 pits being reprieved. Does any of it came under this one?
    Mr. Marsh: No.
    Mrs. Thatcher: None of it does. Some of it must indirectly, because some of the pits that were reprieved will now be closed, and some of the pits now closed will have had redundant workers who will come under other heads anyway. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can give us some idea of the indirect amount from the 16 pits which have been reprieved which comes in either the first or third heads of this Supplementary Estimate.
    So much for pit closures. I hope that the Minister will be able to give some of the details for which I have asked about the£3,750,000 extra that he is demanding. I do not want it in general terms. This is a kind of accounting to the House and I hope we shall have the details. We cannot be asked to vote large sums like this without having the right to ask for details. We are agreed in principle, as he says, but we now want to know exactly, not in general terms, some of the answers which the Minister could not give us at the time of the debate.
    The other broad head under this Estimate concerns coal for electricity and gas, generation. The Minister will be the first to remember that the Bill consequent on the White Paper provided that the C.E.G.B. and the gas boards should be asked to burn up to an extra 6 million tons of coal per year. I suggest to the
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    Minister that the statements with regard to the use of coal for electricity and gas generation are in a contradictory state. The fuel White Paper which I have mentioned based the 6 million tons of coal on the broad general background that without this artificial boost the demand for coal by 1970 would be only 146 million tons in that year, plus a possible 3 million tons for export, bringing the demand to 149 million tons. As against that, production was expected to be 155 million tons, and therefore it was said that the difference of 6 million tons should be used by paying the electricity and gas boards to burn an extra 6 million tons of coal which they really would not choose to burn for commercial reasons.
    That is the broad background, and what we are concerned with is not only the amount, but the price, because this is important. Certainly there was a total sum, 6 million tons, and there was a global amount in the Bill for which the House voted, and of which this Supplementary Estimate takes a part, but the White Paper said that how much was taken of the 6 million tons would depend on the trends in supply and demand for coal.
    We are more than half way through the financial year, and we should like to know the present trends in the demand and supply of coal. From some newspaper reports it looks as though they have been falling as a result of devaluation, and in so far as one can gather the Coal Board seems to have been successful in exporting more coal. May we be told what contracts have been fulfilled, and how much extra has been bought in that way? I ask that because this also has an effect on the 6 million tons which the C.E.G.B. is being asked to take.
    We would also like some information about the price of this coal to the C.E.G.B. It is here that we seem to be in rather a contradictory state about what prices are offered, and what prices can or could be offered to various different concerns, of which one is the C.E.G.B., and another the Scottish boards.
    The Annual Report of the C.E.G.B. for 1966–67, the latest one available, says in paragraph 39:
    "The Board continued to assist the coal industry by holding coal in stock in excess of normal requirements; by burning higher cost coals where lower cost coals would have been preferred; by accepting price differentials on

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    carbonisation coals between the Board and other users; by reducing their burn of fuel oil at a cost of between£2 million and£3 million a year …"
    Here is one of the sources of what I said, that the prices of electricity are deliberately being kept up because the board are deliberately being asked to burn higher cost coal while other people take the lower cost coal.
    The National Coal Board's Report for the same year says in paragraph 22:
    "Thus the Board have stressed that coal can continue to be made available in quantity at a price which is fully competitive with other fuels…"
    On the face of it, that seems to be rather against what the C.E.G.B. was saying, or at any rate it does not get any coal which is produced at a competitive price.
    One then goes to the Report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology and reads the evidence of Lord Robens, which is extremely interesting, and is very much tied up with this question of the price at which these 6 million tons are to be supplied to the C.E.G.B., and the price at which other coals are supplied to this Board and the Scottish Boards.
    In paragraph 1311 of that Report Lord Robens says:
    "We have 120 million tons of coal produced at 4d. but we cannot sell it at that price because there is too much coal produced at higher prices and the reason why you cannot get rid of pits is because the social consequences are too great."
    There it seems that the Board has 120 million tons produced at 4d. a therm, but in the fuel White Paper one sees that the average price of coal supplied to the C.E.G.B. is 5d. a therm.
    We have recently had even more quotations, and I refer to one from the Prime Minister on 14th November, 1967, at col. 213 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, when the right hon. Gentleman invited the National Coal Board to see if it could produce fuel at comparable prices with what would be possible from a nuclear-powered station to enable a coal-fired aluminium smelter to be built.
    There we have a number of contradictions. It has always been the policy of the National Coal Board to have what is known colloquially as postalisation of
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    prices. Lord Robens said in his evidence:
    "We cannot quote for cheap coal because it has to be averaged out with more expensive coal."
    The Prime Minister said that the Board might quote for cheap coal for a particular project, but taxpayers' money is to pay for the extra 6 million tons used by the C.E.G.B. Can the C.E.G.B. have the benefit of coal supplied as cheaply as is at present apparently being quoted for other projects in the United Kingdom, or are the C.E.G.B. and the taxpayers to have to pay expensive prices for coal so that other consumers can have subsidised prices for coal? We are voting money for an extra 6 million tons of coal. Why cannot the National Coal Board have a commercial contract with the C.E.G.B. at a specific price which will compare favourably with the prices now being quoted for other contracts? What will be the position if there is an emergent deficit in the National Coal Board as a result of these contracts? I think that it is right to mention a possible deficit, because, if we are voting taxpayers' money, we want to know the price.
    There is, of course, another factor. Normally by this time of the year the interim report of the National Coal Board has been published. These are usually the worst six months for the Board, because it has the winter to come, and the year is roughly the same as the financial year. I have not been able to get the interim accounts. I understand that they have not been published, and we therefore have to fall back and rely on an estimate of this year's deficit of the Coal Board, given during the debate in Committee on the Coal Industry Bill.
    The Parliamentary Secretary rather shattered us by saying that the expected deficit was£10 million this year. He was cross-examined, because we were surprised, and he confirmed that that was the expected deficit. From reports in the Press it seems that coal sales have been going rather better than expected, possibly as a result of devaluation. We have also had two cold spells, and I notice that stocks are down. What is the position about this? If the position is good, we shall not need to have this 6 million tons extra burn, but this is being paid for, in part, by taxpayers' money.

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    I should also be glad if the Minister would make clear the position with regard to the postalisation of coal prices. Is the National Coal Board free to negotiate fixed price contracts over a long period of years, as it would appear it is going to do in future in connection with the aluminium smelter project? I think that we are entitled to know before we vote this amount.
    In the Supplementary Estimate on the extra burn-up of coal we have a curious estimate, and I think that the Minister must give us some figures. The Supplementary Estimate says that the amount will be certified by the auditors, and so on. The last Estimate mentioned the figure of 3ë million tons—a nice round figure. It was almost a suspiciously round figure. But the one we are dealing with for the burn-up of extra coal is a particularly suspicious figure—£1,449,990. what happened to the extra£10 which would have made the £1½figure million? We have this very particular figure. Why? We should have some interesting arithmetical exercises about it. I understand that it is not known how much will be needed, so a specific fraction has been used based on the daily amount of the total voted.
    One of my jobs is to see that the Minister knows his job and has all the answers ready before we vote this money. I am looking forward to his reply, and shall have paper and pencil out when I listen to him. I hope that he will go into some of the fundamental questions which lie behind the Coal Industry Bill, a id this Estimate which arises from it.
    7 42 p.m.
    Mr. James Griffiths (Llanelly): The hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) has asked many questions, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will do his best to provide her with the answers. She began by asking whether the coal industry was a sacred cow. That term is very familiar to us now. She will recognise that for generations it has been a very precious cow to this country. In these days we all argue about our balance of payments. There w is a time when coal provided our balance of payments. We would be a very happy country if that situation existed today.
    This Supplementary Estimate makes provision for the run-down of the
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    industry. This is a test for the Government, for the House and for the country. We must see how we can manage this rundown with due regard to the human and social consequences.
    The hon. Lady referred to the provision under which, in cases where other industries take coal at more than its market value, the Government will make up the loss. I remind her that in the long period when the party opposite was in power and provided the Minister of Fuel and Power, and then the Minister of Power, it held down the price of coal below its market value. So it, too, has used the instrument of changing prices in the national interest, as it thought at the time. It was provided that the price of coal could not be increased without the consent of the Minister. It is on record that applications by the Coal Board for price increases were refused by the Conservative Minister of Power.
    Had the Coal Board in the late 1940s and 1950s been allowed to charge market prices it could have built up a big surplus to help it through this transition period. No new principle is involved in what the Minister is now doing, as outlined in his fuel policy. For a period the nationalised industries will take a certain amount of coal, and where they can prove that it has been purchased at more than market costs they will be reimbursed by the Government. In some small way this will help the mining industry through its difficult position and help to do one of the things that it is imperative to do, namely, to run down the industry in a civilised way and not one which brings calamitous consequences for men and communities.
    I want now to turn to the question of the provision for pit closures. I shall not argue the question of the figures in the White Paper. I understood that the White Paper was being re-examined in the light of the existing circumstances, taking into account devaluation. Has the Board any prospects of finding new export markets, particularly in Europe, as a result of devaluation? If it is possible to do this it will be a very desirable thing, not only for the Board and the industry but for the whole country.
    In those circumstances I should like to know what steps the Board is taking to promote and expand the export trade.

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    I come from South Wales which at one time, at the peak of the industry, exported 36 million tons of coal. I wish that we could do that today. Our problems would be easily solved. We are geographically suited for this, and if it is possible for us to develop an export trade it will ease the situation in South Wales and in the industry, and this will help the nation.
    A certain sum is provided to meet specific costs connected with pit closures. I presume that part of this money is provided so that the cost of transferring miners from one pit to another can be met, as can the cost of rehousing, and similar problems. These problems will become aggravated as more and more pits are closed, with the consequence that when miners are rendered redundant in a certain mine, with fewer and fewer mines available for them to be transferred to they will have to travel further and further to their place of work.
    Miners are not compelled to take work in another colliery, and we must bear in mind the need for a viable coal industry for a generation or more. If the industry collapsed it would be calamitous. It is essential for us to handle these problems in such a way as to be able to persuade men to take work in another coal mine when they are offered it.
    I am an old coal miner, as are some of my hon. Friends. Transport can be difficult even when a pit is only two, three or four miles from a man's home, but when the distance is 10, 15 or 20 miles it means that men are spending a great amount of time each day first in getting from their homes to the pithead and then from the pithead to the places where they work. This problem must be looked at. I should like to know whether the present arrangements for the transport of men from their homes to the pits are the best possible.
    When consideration is being given to the improvement in road communications we must bear in mind the desirability of improving transport facilities in areas where men have to travel from their homes to their pits. I should like to know on what estimate of closures the present figures are based.
    The secretary of my union, the National Union of Mineworkers, Mr. William
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    Paynter, said on Saturday at a conference in the Swansea valley, where a pit is under threat of closure, that the union had already been told closing dates for 30 collieries and that an additional 40 were in danger. What is the Minister's estimate of the number of closures and the number of men who can be given work at collieries within a reasonable distance and of the extent to which it is possible to slow this down?
    My right hon. Friend knows my view. I think that we have reached the point, with these closures and 5,000 redundancies a year, at which it is beyond our ability to provide alternative work. I hope, therefore, that he will carefully consider that, unless this rundown is accomplished reasonably satisfactorily, with the full cooperation of the Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers, we may in the end not have the basic mining industry which will be essential anyway.
    My hon. Friends tell me that, in every coalfield, it is becoming more and more difficult to get men to go in and to get those who are in to accept another transfer. The men's attitude is understandable. If I were 35 or 40 and learned that my pit was to be closed and I was offered a job in another 15 or 20 miles away, only to be faced in five years with another redundancy, I would consider, if I could get any kind of security in outside industry that it was better to start a new career.
    When we come to vote sums of this kind, unless we handle this problem in a civilised way and care for these men, even if it costs us subsidies, we shall be in a serious position as a country, lacking even the basic tonnage laid down in the White Paper, which many of my hon. Friends think should be higher. But what if we cannot achieve even that? The country will be starved of essential fuel. I hope that the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley and her party will understand that, unless it is done in this way, it will be serious for the country—
    Mrs. Thatcher: I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman on human grounds. I was only probing the expenditure. I want the details and I think that he would want them too.
    Mr. Griffiths: I agree. I am probing also, but I want hon. Members opposite to realise that, if they complain about

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    this, they may have to pay much more, especially if they allow the industry to run down too fast or in the wrong way, with consequences stretching far beyond the industry itself. I heard a reference o this last week.
    The White Paper, I think, said that there would he further consideration, in the light of the existing and developing situation, of the subject of opencast mining. Is there not a strong case now for refusing my more licences for opencast mining and keeping it in reserve? It was put to me at a meeting outside South Wales last week that something which affects the morale in the pits is the fact that the men think that they are closing to provide a market for the opencast mining. Some of my hon. Friends heard this with me last week.
    The Minister appreciates what the men in the coal mines and their communities think about this, if pits are closed and, shortly afterwards, the earth is torn up by enormous machines for opencast mining. My right hon. Friend should seriously consider whether we should not for the moment leave the coal where it is and keep it as a reserve. Once a pit is closed, it is very difficult to reopen it. We have heard about the cost of doing so. The coal in these open casts has been there for ages and it could be left there. That would be a very good reserve for the generations which will succeed us.
    A token—it could not be anything else—of£10 is included in the Estimates to provide for the payments, under the Act which we passed recently, for redundant miners. Under these Estimates an Order will be laid and we can discuss it then. When I went over this matter earlier, I made a suggestion which I will not develop further now since I would be out of order. The provision for miners of 55 and over who are made redundant by pit closures is financially very generous, but the more I think about it, against the background of my experience, the more I consider that this is not the right way to approach the problem.
    The proposal would provide men of this age with certain payments for three wars, at the end of which, under our present insurance system, they would not be entitled to unemployment benefit. Their earnings will certainly go down
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    from what they are. Let us assume that they get £15 a week for three years. That is on the assumption that they will not get a job, and the chances of their doing so are not very rosy. At the end of that time, when such a man would be 58, he would have exhausted his unemployment benefit, and all that would be left to him would be National Assistance. He will have many years to go before being entitled to the National Insurance pension at 65.
    We are creating a very serious position for ourselves in three or four years. I have put forward this suggestion and I do so again. I do not know whether anyone supports me in this. I do not speak officially for my union but for myself. The right way is to use this money, plus whatever is required in addition, to retire the men at 60. I beg my right hon. Friend, the Government, the National Coal Board and my own union to think seriously about this. I am not without some experience in these matters and, looking ahead, I can see great dangers.
    We may argue and have great differences. I am sure that my hon. Friends will explain what the target output should be and the future basic for the coal-mining industry. But we all recognise that there will be a rundown. We shall argue about how much and how fast, but one thing is certain: it must be controlled, as otherwise it will create human and social problems far beyond our capacity to solve in the time. The least which these men, who have given great service to the country, can ask of us it that we handle their industry's rundown so as to do least harm to them and their communities, and also that, while my right hon. Friend presides over the industry, his colleagues in the Government will rapidly speed up the provision of alternative employment for the men and the communities who have rendered good service to the country in the past.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Nicholas Ridley: The right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths) made, as always, a most attractive speech, but it contained two rather curious points. First, he suggested that as the coal industry did not exact the maximum prices which it could have exacted in the years of a sellers' market, it was now entitled

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    to the largesse of the taxpayer. I ask him whether that applies to all industries. For instance, as publicans have not exacted the maximum prices from the sale of alcoholic liquors over the years, should they be entitled to redundancy schemes and help now that they have fallen on hard times as a result of the breathaliser? Would he apply the same criterion to the oil industry? All industries, which go up and down in their prosperity, must take the rough with the smooth. The right hon. Gentleman slightly exaggerated his claims for the coal industry.
    The second point was his suggestion that all opencast coal mining should be stopped. I ask him to reflect upon this, because it is well known that opencast coal is cheaper to mine than deep-mined coal. Does it make sense to prohibit the cheapest way of producing a commodity in order to encourage an expansion of the most expensive way of producing it? That may make good sense to him, but it would not make good sense to those whom we are asking to lend us money and those who are our international creditors. It is this sort of woolly economic thinking which has resulted in the evaporation of confidence—
    Mr. Alex Eadie: The hon. Member made an important point. Would he say that an opencast site on good agricultural land was a feasible economic proposition?
    Mr. Ridley: Yes. I have some personal experience of land which has been worked where I lived. Present techniques—it was not originally so—are such that they can even improve land. Provided that the work is done properly, as nowadays it is, there is little ground for complaint except during the time when the work is being done. The subsequent result is not too bad.
    I should like to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) in her comments about the extra coal burned in power stations. We have had the report that the National Coal Board has offered to supply coal at 3¼d. a therm to the new power station at Hartlepools, that is Seaton Carew. We have heard of the offer by the Coal Board,
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    which has been accepted, for a large supply of coal on a 25-year basis for the new aluminium smelter in Invergordon. The price per therm in this case has not as yet been made public, but to be competitive with oil and nuclear energy it must have been between 3d. and 3½d. a therm. At first sight one welcomes this and agrees that it is a tremendous achievement by the coal industry. One welcomes the jobs which it may save in the North-East. But can it be true that the Coal Board has lowered the average cost of production to 3d., 3¼d. or 3½d. a therm? We know that the Coal Board is currently producing coal at about 5d. a therm on average and that the C.E.G.B. is buying coal on average at that price. It is surprising if there has been such an improvement in productivity that the average price of coal has fallen to 3¼d. or 3½d. a therm. It would be surprising, too, if this improvement could be maintained for the next 25 years so that the contracts for which the Board has tendered will he economic and viable.
    Mr. J. D. Concannon: Is the hon. Member aware that 20 million tons of coal is supplied to the C.E.G.B. at roughly the price which he is quoting? Does he know that that price has not been increased to the C.E.G.B. for over seven years, which means that in real terms there has been a reduction?
    Mr.Ridley: I am coming to that. The Coal Board's Report for the coming year states that the Board is producing 62 million tons of coal at 4d. a therm, 11 million tons of it at 3d. a therm, which means that about 100 million tons is being produced at much more than 4d. a therm. If the Board is to sell a large amount of coal at 3d.–3½d. a therm, it will have to sell coal at 7d.–7½d. a therm to balance the loss. The Coal Board is charged by the House with the duty of balancing its accounts taking one year with another and with not making a loss. But if the Board maintain an expensive capacity, that is bound to result in a loss to the taxpaper as a result of these cheap tenders.
    Nobody could complain if the Board were somehow capturing markets in which it could sell dear coal at dear price in order to compensate for the

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    cheap coal which it is offering on tender. But I have not heard it said that that is happening. To me it is clear that what the Board is doing is picking out selected power stations in order to make an extremely cheap tender when it has no chance whatever of covering the cost of the dearer coal which is being sold at a loss. In the future there may be increases in the price of coal. Anything may happen in 25 years. I very much doubt whether a price of 3d.–3½d. a therm will be economic for the 25 years Of the tender.
    In the sub-head J(2) there appears the phrase,
    "when the appropriate certificates of relevant expenditure have been given by the Board's auditors…".
    I understand that this increased burning of coal will be certified by the auditors as having taken place. Presumably money will then be paid to the electricity or gas board which has burned coal instead of burning another fuel which might have been cheaper. If it is the policy of the House—as it is in the Coal Industry Act, 1967—to subsidise the burning of coal in power stations, then the money should be paid not to the Coal Board but to the electricity or gas board which burns the coal. It is not for the Coal Board to put in a tender which is known to be below cost, because if it does that, then it will be the Coal Board which needs to recoup the money and not the electricity or gas board. I may be wrong, and I shall be grateful if the Minister will tell me whether I am right in stating that the money will go to the electricity board. The phrase reads,
    "Payments will be made from time to time in respect of additional expenditure by the electricity and gas boards".
    If it is those boards which are to recoup the money, then the Coal Board has no right to put in cheap tenders at prices below the cost of production.
    Mr. Marsh: I am trying to follow the hon. Member's argument. The Coal Board concludes contracts at many different prices with many different customers. The purpose of this provision is not to affect the finances of the Coal Board but to get additional coal burned. I cannot follow the hon. Member's argument.
    Mr. Ridley: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman understood the point. If the additional sum in this Estimate—nearly£1½ million—is to be paid to increase the amount of coal burned, then it is presumably to be paid to an electricity or a gas board, probably an electricity board, which agrees to take coal when coal is not the cheapest fuel available. That is something which we accepted in the recent Act.
    However, the Coal Board is tendering below its average cost of production. Thus, in addition to whatever the Electricity Board might receive by way of public funds, the Coal Board will be able to say, "We have made a deficit"—and then this House will be asked to make up that deficit in the years to come, simply because it cannot be possible for the Coal Board to secure high-priced contracts for coal at, say, 6d., 7d. or 8d. a therm when it is making offers in the region of 3d. a therm.
    The principle is quite wrong and the scale of the loss—I have done my best to work out the figures—against the average cost of production for the tender to Alcan could be as much as£25 million over the 25 years, or £1 million a year. It cannot be right for the Coal Board to make a loss of this nature.
    What is there to stop the Coal Board from making tenders to supply 10 million tons of coal here or there at ld. or 2d. a therm? There is no ultimate discipline to force the Coal Board to tender economically. After all, one way of keeping the Coal Board afloat—and perhaps of returning to 200 million tons of annual production again—would be to allow the Board to put in cheap tenders all over the world, making a loss in the process, and at the end of the day merely asking for enormous sums to clear up its annual deficits.
    I hope that this policy will not be pursued because to do so should be a political decision of this House. Perhaps we want to sell cheap coal to power stations here and all over the world, but if that is so, it is for the Government to suggest that as a policy and not for the Coal Board to do it. There should be an investigation into the Coal Board at the end of each year—I would apply this to all nationalised industries—to ensure that

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    this sort of thing is not being done. Otherwise this House has no control over the money it can be asked to fork out.
    Mr. James Griffiths: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Coal Board should not enter into contracts which commit it for the future without seeking the consent of the Minister, who must in turn seek the consent of Parliament? Is he therefore suggesting that the Coal Boards should be debarred from entering into contracts of any sort without the Minister's consent.
    Mr. Ridley: I am merely suggesting that we take note of the fact that the Coal Board is enjoined by Statute not to make a loss. The Board should be held to that and, if it makes a loss as a result of reckless tendering, its membership should be changed. It should not be a good enough excuse for the Board merely to say to Parliament in two or three years' time, "We have made a loss because we are not making a profit on the tenders at Seaton Carew, Alcan and so on". Parliament must discover some sort of discipline to ensure that the Board will not, in a fit of enthusiasm, incur deficits over which we will have no control.
    We have just written off£415 million to the Coal Board. A further£133 million has been provided under the Coal Industry Measure. I support the expenditure of both sums because they are devoted towards reshaping the coal industry, towards helping it to become efficient and competitive and towards helping the miners to adjust to the painful and difficult change that is taking place in the industry. That is the right way to proceed. The wrong way to proceed is to have reckless tendering, with large losses being incurred for the tax payer to make good, remembering that those losses will not escape the notice of our international creditors.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Thomas Swain: I have been interested in the debate so far. Looking at the Order Paper, I thought that this would be a rather narrow discussion. Instead, we have had an excellent Second Reading speech, delivered from the heart, from my right hon. Friend the Member for
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    Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths), an exercise in elementary questioning by the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), and from the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) we have just received a detailed speech on an annual report of the National Coal Board which is not yet in existence.
    I come to the Estimate which is before us and my first remarks must be about the decided increase which is shown for oil storage. Does this increase arise because of my right hon. Friend's policy for the rundown of the coal industry, inevitably meaning further increases in the import of oil? If so, I contend that it is the economy of the madhouse. Why does not my right hon. Friend discuss with the oil industry—and, if necessary, if that industry is hard up, provide it with a Supplementary Estimate—the conducting of further scientific research into the breakdown of crude oil? I am told that the Americans are cracking down crude oil and are getting almost 100 per cent. of the refined product. However, the average yield of fuel oil from crude oil is only 15 per cent., compared with our 40 per cent.
    Mr. Marsh: I think that my hon. Friend will find that the subject to which he is now referring comes under a different heading than that on assistance to the coal industry.
    Mr. Swain: I thought that I would follow the pattern of the debate so far. I have heard very little about the actual Estimate before us, so I thought that I would open my remarks by getting on the record something which we in the miners' group have been discussing for a considerable time.
    Certain figures have been presented by the Minister—he quoted them in Committee and on Second Reading—which I would like broken down. An important one concerns the benefits to be paid to redundant miners. How is the total sum arrived at, what are the benefits—I want them broken down in detail—to be paid to each miner who becomes redundant, how will the nine-tenths be compiled and what is the original figure before the nine-tenths figure is broken down? The estimates in this matter are vague. Do they contain any element of the allowances to be paid to redundant miners over the

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    age of 55? Miners over that age who become redundant and who are compelled to seek further employment or go on the dole receive no further benefits under concessionary coal schemes.
    I am pleased to say that in parts of the country we have county court schemes under which able young miners may forfeit three to four cwt. per load of concessionary coal to provide coal for old-age pensioners who retire at 65. However, I have been unable to find any comments of the Minister, either inside or outside the House, to the effect that concessionary coal is a benefit that will be continued to men who are made redundant if they are aged 55. Concessionary coal is an important issue to the miners a ad I hope that my right hon. Friend v ill give an indication of whether his Department has seriously considered this vital point and what answers have been arrived at.
    Section 5 of the Coal Industry Act provides a certain amount of money for pit closures. If my memory serves me aright, 22 pits of considerable size, employing roughly 11,000 men, are to close by the end of February, and notice has been given for 69 pits to be closed by 31st December. In the meantime, anything can happen in the demand for coal or in the form of geological disturbances underground at any given moment in any given pit which can result in its going from the black to considerably in the red. The long-term, and even the short-termp prospects of that pit would be seriously affected.
    We know of 69 pits, but the number that could suffer in the circumstances I have outlined is unknown. In the whole history of the industry we now have the greatest number of pits ever given notice to close in one year. That being so, does the Minister consider the Supplementary Estimate is sufficient?
    My right hon. Friend will no doubt remember that in Committee we asked for the date of April, 1971, to be taken out of the Bill because we feared—I think, rightly—that Clause 3 would not provide sufficient money to pay the very welcome benefits to individuals or Clause 5 help the Coal Board's closure programme. Because of the terrific closure programme envisaged in the next year, neither Section of the Act appears to
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    provide a great deal of money. I am afraid that before very long, perhaps even before the year is out, there will not be sufficient to provide the benefits necessary to make the men happy and to relieve the Board of the danger of falling into deficit. I believe that the Minister will have to come back for more in the not too distant future.
    One very important function of the Board is to see that after a pit has been closed, after the last ton of coal has been mined from it, the safety regulations are obeyed to the letter. Those regulations must be obeyed until the very last salvage worker is taken from the pit, however long that may be after closure. That means a considerable expense to the Board, because all those on the surface, the deputies and everyone concerned with observance of the regulations must be employed full-time.
    In addition, a considerable number of men must be employed on salvage work. Although the Board receives some benefit from salvage, it incurs a considerable loss on the salvage work that has to be carried out. Will compensation be paid to the Board for the very great amount of money required for salvage work and the maintenance of safety regulations at the 69 pits scheduled for closure in 1968?
    The Minister, in his statement on 18th July last, on Second Reading, and in Committee said, "Give us the Bill. We want to make the payments by Christmas." I do not know whether the Minister yet knows what payments will be made to the individual. If he does, I apologise to him for my doubts, and I look forward to his answer. Hon. Members on both sides co-operated on the understanding that benefits would start being paid by about Christmas, but many of these people were made redundant soon after 18th July. I hope that my right hon. Friend will expedite the system by which they are to be paid, and let us know the amounts and the categories. If that is done, I am convinced that the lot of those of us in the mining areas will be a good deal easier.
    8.25 p.m.
    Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries): It is an interesting coincidence that this is the fourth occasion on which I have followed the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) in our coal debates. On

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    each occasion I have agreed with his sentiments on the problems of the rundown of the industry, and particularly on the care and consideration we must give to the men who may lose their jobs.
    In part, the money about which we are talking is required to offset the hardships involved in the running down of the pits before other jobs are available. It is economic commonsense to say that, balanced against the payment of unemployment benefit, supplementary benefit or redundancy pay—not to mention the effects on local authority housing or other developments where pits are being closed—there is a strong case for postponement so that, in the meantime, industry can be attracted to the area.
    Like my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), I am concerned about the administration of the money we are voting, particularly in relation to pit closures. I, too, would like to know where the money is to go. There seem to be far too many irons in the fire in making the decisions, as I know because I have been intimately involved in this matter recently. The Ministry of Power, the Treasury, the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour, the Department of Economic Affairs—if it is in Scotland, the Scottish Office—the appropriate planning council—and a sub-committee of the planning council in Scotland—the divisional chairmen of the Coal Board, possibly the Chairman of the Board himself and, very properly the N.U.M., are all people involved, and we are taking an incredible time to get the answer from them.
    If at all possible, a decision on the future of a pit should be arrived at by the time we come to the jeopardy meeting, and not have the problem considered afterwards. At this stage the National Coal Board has a very clear idea of their intentions. So have the N.U.M. and the Board of Trade. They know the possibilities of industry coming to a district. but there seems to be a very misty area in which no Minister is quite clear about what advice should be tendered to arrive at a final conclusion for a closure date.
    While agreeing to this money for which the Minister is asking, I ask what steps are being taken before the final decision is arrived at and what is the time-scale in relation to the normal
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    procedure for closing a pit. I want this money to be paid out in appropriate cases, but my experience referring to the pit in which I am particularly interested, Fauldhead, does not encourage me to believe that the Ministers and the Departments are in a position to give the right advice at the right moment. We have discussed the closure of this pit for three years, and with mounting concern over the last 12 months. It was due to close on 3rd February but, as the miners have not been given a month's notice, that is not a possibility.
    I have paid visits to Ministers, I have had phone calls and letters and there have been meetings of the planning council, of the N.C.B. and the N.U.M. in the last few weeks, but it is impossible to find what the position is. This uncertainty—Fauldhead is not alone in this respect—is intolerable for the miners whose livelihood is concerned. At the beginning of this month the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power wrote to me saying that the pit was being closed for economic reasons. Yet in the last few months it has been running at a substantial profit. There seems to be a great degree of misguided thinking somewhere in the Ministry. I appreciate that there may not be development there, but it appears that the pit could run for some months. There is a strong case for postponing under Clause 5, which is covered by the money we are talking about tonight, because the men will be put out of work.
    Mr. Marsh: I think the hon. Member will find on reflection that we are not in fact discussing Clause 5 under these Estimates.
    Mr. Monro: That may be a matter of opinion. I have taken advice which was otherwise.
    Mr. Marsh: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member again, but there are three issues here. The first deals with Clause 2 of the Bill, the second with Clause 6 and the third with Clause 3, but Clause 5 is not dealt with in these Estimates.
    Mr. Monro: We hope that the Minister will answer the debate and will cover some of the points which have been made by hon. Members. Wherever the money comes from, there is a case for postponement of this pit closure.

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    Our attitude in Scotland to the money we are talking about is affected to some extent by the most interesting developments over the weekend in relation to the Alcan project and Invergordon. There is no doubt that this has received a most warm welcome in Scotland. The whole country is behind the efforts being made by Alcan to bring development in an area which desperately needs it. To everyone's surprise it was decided that it should be a coal-fired electricity generating station to provide the electricity for smelting. It requires 500,000 tons of coal in the early days and 1 million tons a year later. This must have an effect on the money we are talking about. If the coal can be provided by Scottish pits he closures should be postponed. It might he economic to reopen the Michael Pit in Fife. The Government have already earmarked Longannet, so there must be coal for this station.
    We noted over the weekend at a planning inquiry in Renfrewshire talk of three more electricity generating stations required in Scotland. This suggests that there is a chance of more coal being required. Therefore there should be postponement of the further closures which we in Scotland are worried about at the moment. I support my hon. Friends on the question of differentials. The differential is a big handicap in Scotland. We hope that it may be reduced following the developments of the weekend.
    I ask the Minister to be certain that under Clause 6 it is made clear to the House and the public that when coal is subsidised to electricity and gas boards it will be audited and shown that the public are paying the right price. There is concern that some inaccuracies and discrepancies could occur in the global figure and that in the end the public would be paying more through taxation than it should.
    I hope that the Minister, at a time when pit closures are giving such grave concern to many areas, will try tonight to set out some of the answers for which we are calling and indicate that not only is 3rd February an impossible date but also that 31st March is not a sacrosanct date, and that the 16 pits that are presently under sentence of death may have a postponement to the summer. I believe that this would be justified in view of the
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    present high rate of unemployment in the country, and so I ask the Minister to say something about it.
    8.36 p.m.
    Mr. Alex Eadie: It is with great pleasure that I follow the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro). I wish that the sentiments that he uttered had been echoed a little more among hon. Members opposite. The hon. Gentleman spoke about the problem with knowledge and some compassion and understanding.
    It is very important, as the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) said, that we should be very careful how we vote taxpayers' money and should be very searching in our examination. All of us in the House have a certain responsibility when looking at Estimates, but I do not think that we must all the time have the philosophy of the accountant. We should, indeed, take note of some of the expressions of opinion made during the debate. But we are not just discussing the question of approving a certain amount of money. We are deciding to some extent the lives of men, women and children in the localities where pit closures occur.
    This is why I could not understand at one stage during the debate—it has now been cleared up—that there appeared to be a lack of enthusiasm for the announcement at the weekend that there would be an aluminium smelter plant in Invergordon fired by coal. We ought not to be too sensitive about money for subsidy. It should be remembered that Governments of both complexions sold coal below the cost of production as deliberate policy. We may have a different philosophy now. We want to see profitability to some extent dictate our approach now to the fuel and energy market, but we ought not to be mealymouthed about it and suggest that the propositions which may be involved in relation to the losses of the National Coal Board, if there be any losses, mean that we are putting into being an entirely new policy. That would be hypocritical on both sides of the House.
    Therefore, the Invergordon project, however much it may be related to the Estimate, can only be welcome. Deputation after deputation has gone to the Ministry in relation to the closure of

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    the Michael Colliery. I plead a vested interest. Some of my family are signing on for the dole as a consequence of that closure. The fact that the aluminium smelter plant is going to Invergordon is welcome because we have a railway and a sea port which can be used to run the coal to Invergordon.
    I hope that my right hon. Friend will make some comment about this matter if it is relevant to our present discussion. I am perturbed when I look at the Estimates. Reports are coming to me that in certain parts of the United Kingdom men over 55 have been refused employment by the Coal Board as a consequence of pit closures. When this House debated the issue, it was told that very careful consideration would be given to providing sustenance to men over 55 who, as a result of pit closures, had no other alternative employment prospects. It was never envisaged that there should be a deliberate act of policy whereby men over 55 should not be employed.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths) referred to this. I said that it was a very depressing policy to write off men over 55. We accepted this as part of a difficult situation, when there was no industry in the area, and hardship would be caused. This was in some way to help and assist the situation. I hope that my right hon. Friend will have something to say on this. Is it a deliberate act of policy to refuse fit and able men over the age of 55 work in a particular area? He should tell the House this. If this is happening, then the House was misled to some extent when we debated this aspect last.
    Questions have been asked about the effect of devaluation on the economic prospects of the mining industry. The hon. Member for Finchley said that she had a shrewd suspicion that things were perhaps going better for the industry now than when we previously debated it. I think that her argument was that if this was so we ought to examine the use to which the money we are voting tonight would be put. My right hon. Friend has a responsibility to tell the House if this is so. I know it is irresponsible to some extent, but I am not so much concerned about the money as about my right hon.
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    Friend making a statement about the effect on the prospects of the coalmining industry. Morale in the industry at present is very low and if the industry's fortunes have improved to some extent this will help to improve morale.
    As I said, we are concerned about the employment prospects of men, women and children. Would he care to comment about this? Have the fortunes of the coalmining industry improved to such an extent as I have read? The New Scientist said in November that experiments were taking place at coal-fired power stations to do with the extraction of sulphur. If hon. Members have been watching they will know that the costs of sulphur coming into the country have increased astronomically. It is important that if the fortunes of the mining industry have improved as a result of devaluation and we are able to get more from coal and its by-products, we should know. If it is true, the whole question of profitability in using coal must be looked at afresh.
    I shall not say more now. I intended to make a rather shorter speech, but I wanted to put those points to my right hon. Friend. I hope that he will answer some of the questions which I put and allay the anxieties which I have expressed.
    8.45 p.m.
    Mr. David Lane: I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate, and I wish now to make only a short intervention, putting one or two questions in support of what my hon. Friends have said. These questions relate to the special assistance under Section 6 of the 1967 Act to the electricity board and also, perhaps, to the gas boards. First, I should make clear that I entirely support the principle enshrined in Section 6 that assistance of this kind should be given under a general subsidy from the taxpayer and should not be a burden on the users of electricity or gas, provided always that the assistance is subject to the closest scrutiny by the House.
    My first question is about the volume of extra coal-burn which the Minister envisages for next year. I was interested to read his Written Answer the other day, when, in reply to his hon. Friend the

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    Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. Leadbitter), he said:
    "I have asked the C.E.G.B. to use as much extra coal as practicable in the current financial year, and I am discussing with them how much extra they will use next year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th January, 1968; Vol. 756, c. 624.]
    I hope that the Minister will tell us tonight rather more about how he envisages the application of practicability in this context. Although we accept the principle regarding this type of subsidy, as I have said, it is important to minimise the extra cost involved for the taxpayer. Further, within the total, can the Minister say any more than his officials were able to tell the Estimates Sub-Committee about the likelihood of extra coal-burn by the gas industry as well as the electricity industry?
    My other questions come under the heading of the average cost of this assistance. The figure for a full year was estimated by his officials last months as about£10 million. Is the right hon. Gentleman able to give a more precise figure than that? Second, have the negotiations with the Central Electricity Generating Board about which we were told last month yet been finalised? To what extent does the Minister see any possible rise in the long-term cost of oil affecting the annual total of estimates in respect of assistance under this Section? If the negotiations have not yet been concluded, what relevance does the right hon. Gentleman see for them in the announcement at the weekend about a possible long-term contract for the supply of coal to the Invergordon smelter, if it goes ahead?
    My last point is a rather wider one relating to the total cost of energy to industry. Since devaluation, we have heard about the extra burdens which will be laid upon industry, particularly the exporting industries, as a result of the removal of the export rebate and, alas, in a few months, the extra costs which will result from the passage of the Transport Bill. Depending on the Minister's estimates of the long-term trend in oil costs, there may be an opportunity here to offer some hope of compensation to exporting industries in an eventual lowering of their average cost of energy through a review of the present fuel oil tax. I know what he has said about it in the White Paper, but can he say
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    anything more encouraging to industry now about lowering the fuel oil tax as soon as possible, if not removing it?
    8.50 p.m.
    Mr. Eric Ogden: I will endeavour to follow the example of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) in trying to keep to the points under discussion. This is difficult, however, after listening to the speech on the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher). There is a theory that all hon. Members are equal. Each time that the hon. Lady comes to the Dispatch Box, she demolishes what is left of the theory. I wish that for equality of debate the hon. Lady would move back to social security, foreign affairs or some such subject. It is an unequal contest.
    The question of coal consumption comes within Parts I and II of the Supplementary Estimate. Time and time again, my right hon. Friend the Minister, either in the House or at private meetings, has asked us to tell him where he could burn more coal. During the Recess, I visited my old Bradford Colliery, in Manchester, and found a place close by where my right hon. Friend could burn a little extra coal.
    I refer to Stewart Street power station, where 18 months ago the consumption of coal was approximately 1,500 tons a week. The power station is now on part time and is used only at peak periods. The Central Electricity Generating Board may have good reason for this, but the result has been that the coal consumed from Bradford Colliery, Manchester—brought up from below the ground and over the conveyors to Stewart Street power station—has been halved during the past six or 12 months. This is one place where, I am certain, my right hon. Friend will make inquiries to see whether we could burn a little extra coal.
    Mr. Marsh: I remember the meeting in question and I am grateful for any additional holes which my hon. Friend has found for another 1,000 tons or so. He will recall that I was asking for another 5 million tons.
    Mr. Ogden: I once said,
    "Mony a mickle maks a muckle."
    Everywhere I went at home, I got that phrase. Every little helps. Whether it

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    is 1,000 tons or 700 tons, it is not to be sneezed at.
    I make a point in support of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths) when he drew attention to the doubts which some of us had about the wisdom of carrying on with an expanded opencast production at this time. The comment is made in the Fuel White Paper at paragraph 65 that
    "The case for continued opencast working, taken by itself, is quite strong, but it has to be related to the circumstances of the industry as a whole. At a time of coal surplus, account has to be taken of the effects on total production and on the level of employment in deep mines."
    Mr. Concannon: While we are on opencast mining, is my hon. Friend aware that of a total opencast production of 7 million tons, over half is already on the floor?
    Mr. Ogden: I was not directly aware of that, but I am now and I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comment.
    I accept that often the price of opencast coal production is less than the average price, but we should add to it the capital cost which may be incurred by the closure of a pit near where opencast coal is being worked. In the past week we have had an example from Warwickshire, where there is a distinct threat of closure to two collieries on economic grounds—not geological grounds, reasons of danger or because of loss of manpower—and where, within a mile or two proposals are being actively canvassed that 12 million tons of coal should be taken by opencast working over the next three, four or five years. When my right hon. Friend the Minister considers whether to grant permission for the extraction of 12 million tons from that area at this time, part of the sum involved in such a calculation which should be added to the bill is the cost of the inevitable closure of collieries in the area, which would follow.
    A token provision is made in the Estimate for redundancy. It is not often considered that a great deal of hidden redundancy is involved in the operations of the National Coal Board. It is not possible, as it is in many private industries, for a pit simply to be closed down. When a pit closes, it is regarded as being one of a large organisation and people
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    are transferred from one part of that organisation to another. If a cotton mill or factory ceases to operate, however, the redundancy is clean-cut.
    Often there is hidden redundancy because the Coal Board, rightly, tries to offer employment elsewhere. Travelling becomes too difficult and the distances are too great, with the result that a job which is offered at a new pit is in many ways not satisfactory and a man therefore has to give up the job; he cannot work in the new pit. He is not then redundant. He goes voluntarily, and there is hidden redundancy.
    I thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for the interest he took conecerning a point which I raised about redundancy on Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill, when I asked him to use his good offices to ensure that no one class or grade of staff of the Coal Board should be treated less generously than any other class or grade. I was referring particularly to non-industrial clerical workers, and officials of the Coal Board. I understand that negotiations have been taking place, and that the point of view which was expressed in this House has been taken note of by the Coal Board, and I am grateful for the help given in this by my right hon. Friend.
    8.55 p.m.
    Mr. Peter Emery (Honiton): The new procedure, which the Opposition have taken, for examining the winter Supplementary Estimates is obviously proving a considerable success in that it has allowed us to have a debate this afternoon and evening on some specific extra expenditure. I think perhaps we have been able to have a debate which has gone somewhat wide of the items in the Estimate, but some of those wider matters have been quickly related back to these items as soon as possible. Therefore, I think that any criticism which has been made of my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) is really quite unfair, because there can be no doubt that she stayed in order much more nearly than any other person who has spoken. Moreover, I would suggest that in her probing of some of the Estimates and by the questions she has asked she has made a very real and definite contribution to trying to get some information on how this money is being spent. After all, that is not a matter of dispute between the

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    two sides of the House; we all want to know how the money is being spent, and we want to make sure it is being spent wisely.
    I believe a different situation has arisen since the passage of the borrowing powers under the Coal Industry Bill, which is now an Act, because we have how had, in only the last seven days, a major review of Government spending, and, therefore, on this Estimate certain questions arise in a somewhat different light from that in which they might have arisen a matter of only months ago, and in considering them I want to ask one n- two questions about whether there were not some savings which might have been made which could have been offset against the total Supplementary Estimate.
    My first major, direct question really sums up many of the points which have been made on this side of the House. Will the Minister say whether there has been any change of policy at all on closing inefficient pits since the review of Government expenditure? After all, it could be argued—I am not saying that I shall do so now—that the economic situation should demand that pit closures should be increased and that we ought not to afford some of this money. I want to ensure that the Minister will state quite plainly whether there has been any alteration. I will take up a point of the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) and I should like to know whether the figure which he gave to the House, of 69 pit closures scheduled for the next year, is the number of those which the Minister will be considering approving in conjunction with the decision of the National Coal Board. May I then ask him, if that is not the figure, whether he can announce the figure, because it is all tied up with this Vote? Will he also give me au assurance that, if this matter has be en decided as a matter of management between the Coal Board and himself, he will try to stop the Prime Minister from interfering in certain of these decisions, as he has done in the past?
    Let me return for a moment to something which has obviously created great interest and concern, and that is the announcement about the possibility of an aluminium smelter. coal-fired, being placed at Invergordon. I can understand why my hon. Friend the Member
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    for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) and others have welcomed this, but it has considerable relevance because of the possibility of stopping pit closures.
    There are three questions which I want to put to the Minister. So much of this at the moment is supposition, although there have been a number of thorough reports in the Scottish Press recently. First, I want to ask him about the suggestion made by Sir Sidney Ford and the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) that it would immediately allow for consideration of the reopening of the Michael Colliery. It has aroused considerable interest in Scotland and has been the source of Press comment. At one time, it was implied that somewhere in the Coal Board a study of it was to be initiated immediately. Perhaps the Minister could comment.
    The second matter which is causing great concern is the thermal price of coal. It has been said by one of the Sunday newspapers in a fairly thorough article to be approximately 3¼d. per therm, and it is suggested that that is about£1 per ton below the average price quoted by the National Coal Board. If that is the case, I can understand why so many hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies are particularly incensed and wondering about the future of the Scottish coalfields, when it is suggested that the coal is coming not from Scotland but from the North-East. This is an important factor in terms of pit closures.
    Another point about it which is of interest to a businessman is that that price per therm appears to have been a contant one. If that is true about a 25-year contract, it is an amazing financial bargain for anyone to strike. In defending the rights of the coal industry, whatever the bargain is, I hope that there is some sort of price review carried on in such a contract.
    I want to draw to the Minister's notice a comment by Sir Stanley Brown, the Chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board, which appeared in yesterday's Sunday Times:
    "I find it difficult to understand how the situation can be economic if in fact the coal offered is the same price as that offered to us, still more so as the smelter is to be in the North of Scotland."
    It is obvious from that statement that the Chairman of the Generating Board is concerned about the possibility that the

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    National Coal Board is making a direct contract at a price which the Central Electricity Generating Board would itself like to pay. This is the point made so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley in stressing that a strange situation exists when we are voting public money to pay for an extra coal-burn by the electricity industry, yet the industry would be happy not to receive that subsidy if it could contract to buy coal at the price rumoured in the deal between the National Coal Board and the Alcan Company. Perhaps the Minister will comment on whether such contracts will be openly available to other industries than smelting. I can think of one or two instances where the availability of such cheap power might well give the right hon. Gentleman some of the coal-burn that he wants.
    I turn now to one aspect in the speech of the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths). We are always pleased to listen to him. However, there was one point where I had some slight disagreement with him. He suggested that stopping price rises in the past or having a policy of keeping prices artificially high at the moment was really the same principle, because Governments had interfered with the pricing mechanism. Whilst that might be true in one sense if carried to a conclusion, there are two major differences. The first was attempting to hold to a cheap fuel policy and ensuring a high level of consumption, whilst keeping prices artificially high does not hold to a cheap fuel policy by definition. Secondly, in the long run, it has the effect of ensuring that the high level of consumption is not maintained.
    Mr. James Griffiths: If I understood correctly the speech of the hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), she was querying, as is the hon. Gentleman, the fact that money is provided to enable the Government to help the electricity industry and others who are now buying an extra amount of coal up to 1970, or whatever it is, at more than they would pay for other fuels and, therefore, that the Coal Board is being subsidised. What I said was that in principle the position was the reverse in the 1950s, because other coal consuming industries were getting coal at less than the market price
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    and coal was subsidising, for example, steel.
    Mr. Emery: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for again stating his position. We are not in disagreement about it. This seems to reinforce the point I made that keeping an artificially high price for coal, whatever it may do in the short run, does not ensure a cheap fuel policy and a high level of demand or consumption in the long run.
    I will try to bring together all the points on subhead II by asking just three direct questions.
    How much of this extra Estimate is being applied to the gas industry and how much to the electricity industry? Surely we ought to be allowed to have that figure. How much of the proposed 6 million tons per year will be consumed in the full year? The Estimate is for 75 per cent. of the year. How much of the 6 million tons will be consumed in the full year. Is the Minister able to say in this Vote how many pits have been or are being kept open because of this expenditure?
    I turn now to one other point which has not been raised. When considering the closing of pits, one must be concerned with the total overall expenditure. I am concerned, particularly in the economic position which exists today, at the immense level of stockpiling which we have. Can the Minister say whether there has been or is to be any re-examination of this high level of stock piling? It has gone down in the last few weeks to below 27 million tons. I see the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East referring to the statistics. I have done my homework. The last figure I have shows that it is down to 26·9 million tons. If one works that out on a capital cost basis at ordinary Bank Rate, one sees that servicing the capital tied up there accounts for £2·152 million. This is larger than one of these Supplementary Estimates will be in a full year. I suggest that this is a factor which the Minister will have to reconsider. This sort of money can be saved if there is a change in stockpiling policy. If the Minister is able to say anything about this, I think that it will be of assistance to the House.
    I conclude by agreeing with what the hon. Member for Midlothian said, that

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    if during this debate we can do something to raise the morale of the men in the coal industry it will be a worthwhile proper thing to do. There is one way in which I think this can be done. I hope that the Minister will comment on the estimate put forward by his hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary during the Committee stage of the Coal Industry Bill, when he talked of a possible deficit for the N.C.B. last year of £10 million. We have not had the interim figures. There has been some play about whether this is important, and although the figures have not been published, I am sure that the Minister must be au fait with them, and he may be able to announce some goods news for the coal industry. He may be able to tell us t that the deficit suggested by his hon. Friend will not be anything like that figure. If he were able to give that sort of information to the coal industry I think it would help the morale of coal miners throughout the country. I am sure that they will be glad to hear that the industry is not running into a large-scale deficit.
    9 12 p.m.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Marsh): Far be it for me to speak at any great length and hold up the next and final instalment in this evening's saga of Supplementary Estimates, but a number of important points have been raised, and, as the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) said, large sums of money are involved.
    The House should not lose sight of the fact that these large sums of money were approved by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Oh.
    Mr. Marsh: The hon. Lady cannot get away with saying "Oh" about that. There is not much point in approving things in principle if one does not have a fairly clear idea of the extent of the legislation being agreed to. I am not criticising the Opposition for agreeing to the legislation. It is one of the few things which they have done with which I wholeheartedly agree. The 1967 Coal Act was agreed to in this House only a few weeks ago, and under this procedure we have Supplementary Estimates which flow wholly, solely, and directly from
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    the three sections of that Measure which call for additional expenditure.
    I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I deal a little disjointedly with the debate, but a number of points have been raised from both sides of the House at various times.
    The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) asked some specific questions, which I shall answer, and raised a number of points which had been raised by other speakers. He asked whether there was any change of policy in the closing of uneconomic pits as a result of our present economic difficulties. Though this is a highly emotive subject, he said quite fairly that an argument could be advanced that, faced with economic difficulties, it would be logical and justifiable to speed up the rate of closures because this would make available resources which otherwise would be denied to the nation. There is no change of policy here. I believe that the present closure programme and the policy outlined in the White Paper are designed to produce a rate of rundown which involves enormous social and human problems. but which I genuinely believe is the maximum that can be imposed in these circumstances. That is why these figures occur in the winter Supplementary Estimates—to enable us to pay for the cost not of running down the industry, as is occasionally said, but of preventing its running down as rapidly as it otherwise would. Without these large sums of money the industry would run down much faster. I do not believe that any civilised society could tolerate that, in terms of the human difficulties it would cause, or that it would be in the national interest, since there is a long future for the coal industry through the existence of many coal-fired power stations.
    The hon. Member also raised the question of the effect of the extra coal burned, as juxtaposed with Alcan, and we have had all sorts of other expressions of interest—I will not say doubts—about the Coal Board's accounting as shown in some of the figures quoted for the sale of coal. It must be made absolutely clear that in this Section of the Act the revenue of the C.E.G.B. is irrelevant to this protection. What we are trying to do is to get the C.E.G.B. to burn coal at the national expense. This is why

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    It will not have any effect on electricity consumers.
    It is only 6 million tons a year, but It is designed to be 6 million tons above the trend in 1970. We are spending this to get that additional amount burned, and the extent to which we can obtain additional orders—I shall deal with the question of devaluation and increased export potential as a result—reduces the load upon the Exchequer.
    The hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Honiton also raised the question of the interim statement. I have statutory responsibility for the form in which the Board's accounts are presented and I am still in the process of discussing the interim statement. I hope that it will be available in the very near future.
    Mr. Ridley: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how he proposes to assess payments under subhead J(2) for burning extra coal? Will the payments be made to the C.E.G.B. or the Coal Board? It is the mechanics of the thing about which the House is in doubt.
    Mr. Marsh: Perhaps the hon. Member will forgive me on that point. The hon. Lady began her remarks by referring to the degree to which the general policy is affected by devaluation. This is fundamental, because it is a big thing. The 1967 Coal Act was passed in the full light of devaluation. I have always said that I did not believe that devaluation would have a fundamental effect upon the figures in the White Paper; indeed, had one believed that the figures would be radically changed after devaluation it would have been nonsense to go through with the 1967 Act.
    Mr. Swain: If the White Paper on Fuel Policy represents the policy of the Government, will my right hon. Friend tell us when it was ratified by the House? He seems to be making great play about the White Paper. When did the House ratify it?
    Mr. Marsh: I am trying not to be controversial, if only because it spoils my digestion and prolongs the debate; I want to come on to that point. I am not making great play of the White Paper, but these figures come from three Sections of the 1967 Act and they are justified only
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    by those Sections. That Act cannot be justified except in so far as it is to provide for the slowing down of the rundown and the social provision which arises out of the policies in the White Paper. I assure my hon. Friend that I do not want to bring the White Paper into every debate; I should like to get through one in which it did not arise. But the hon. Lady raised it and I am under some obligation to reply to her and others.
    She asked how it was affected by these factors and how it came about that these nationalised industries appeared to have come unscathed through the icy blasts which had blown through the Treasury in the last few weeks—
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am well aware that the nationalised industries had some of their capital expenditure reduced, but I said, if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive the expression, that mining was becoming a sacred cow.
    Mr. Marsh: It is a sacred cow which has provided a pretty good yield for this nation over a long period. Without becoming too emotional, I must say that the figures involved are basically concerned with miners. Under straight economics, we would not have the over-55s scheme and would not be spending money on increased coal-burn or the social benefits under Section 2. All this money is concerned basically with miners. Before the hon. Lady led me astray, I was about to say that the National Coal Board has contributed its cuts, as have all the others, of£4 million.
    I have been asked about the effect of devaluation upon the White Paper. We have looked at this carefully. Clearly, it changes the relative prices of some fuels but it never seemed to me likely to make big changes, which is why I thought it unwise to give the impression that it would. The figures are as follows. The scheduled price of fuel oil—the big problem is the relationship between fuel oil and coal—has increased by about 0·75d. per gallon. This has to be compared, of course, with the Schedule to the White Paper in which we took as an example the doubling of the fuel oil tax of 2d. The effect of that, I think—speaking from memory—was to increase non-power station coal-burn by about 4 million tons, at a cost to industry of£90 million.

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    Clearly, therefore, if this 2d. a gallon extra, which was postulated as a statistical exercise, does not affect it very much, then the 0·75d. per gallon is within those margins of error.
    But then there is the position in the export market. Undoubtedly, the Coal Board is in a better position here than previously. I said this in our previous debate. The nationalised industries generally get more brickbats than bouquets, and I think that the Board is to be congratulated in this instance on the speed with which it moved in to maximise its export opportunities. This is not easy, because the Continental industries have long-term contracts in many cases, and, of course, the Continent has much larger coal stocks than we have.
    However, the N.C.B. estimate is that it will he able, as a result of devaluation. to increase its exports by about 2 or 3 million tons per annum. There are therefore changes here. The potential change by 1975 is estimated, so far as this is possible, to be about five million tons of coal-burn—deep-mined coal—for inland demand.
    As I have explained many times, the figures in the White Paper are not production targets. The kind of figures which we are discussing are well within the margin of error of forecasts as far ahead as that. The effect of devaluation. therefore, is to improve the outlook for the coal industry, but the extent to which it does so is within the limits of the additional coalburn about which we are talking, and to that extent it is rather more, perhaps, of a net gain to the Exchequer.
    Mr. Concannon: This is an important point. My right hon. Friend appears to say that the 3 million tons of extra coal which the N.C.B. is exporting will be taken off the 6 million tons of extra coalburn. If that is so, it is unfortunate, because by the pricing of the coal system, we have the point in the industry about the 9s. a ton taken off the price of coal fetching it down to East Midlands prices. This 3 million tons is East Midlands and South Yorkshire coal. If that is taken off, it will have the unfortunate effect of speeding up the closures in other areas.
    Mr. Marsh: I appreciate that it is an important point, but it is not one into which I can go into great detail on these winter Estimates. I am seeking to
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    justify these figures which are being challenged. The White Paper is Government policy, and if it is argued that the White Paper is not valid, then these figures do not stand up. As for the future of the industry, a production of 155 million tons of coal represents a very big coal mining industry indeed. The extent to which the industry is able to be more viable makes it so much less open to pressures from outside. But from the point of view of this exercise, the figures confirm the basic policy of the White Paper. The coal mining industry is made to look a little more attractive than it was before.
    The hon. Lady the Member for Finchley asked how we had arrived at the figure of£1,499,990 in item (2). I was tempted to say that it was because I had seen the original estimate and had pointed out that it was arithmetically wrong. In fact, it is merely that we have a token provision in relation to benefits for miners, and we have taken£10 for that. as is the normal practice, and assumed that no one would notice it. Indeed, no one but the hon. Lady would have noticed it.
    The main point made by the hon. Lady concerned the grants under the Coal Industry Act as amended by the 1967 Act. This is a simple arithmetical projection of the change from the previous basis of provision by which the Exchequer contribution under Section 3 of the 1965 Act would have been£3 million of the then gross expenditure estimate of£10 million the formula being 50 per cent. of the expenditure over the first£3·8 million. In the 1967A,ct we changed that to a straight two-thirds of the expenditure incurred. That is estimated at£9 million, two-thirds of which would be the Exchequer contribution of£6 million. Allowing for the delay in the submission of the final audited claims within the year, the provision has been made for an interim grant of£5·25 million.
    The hon. Lady wondered to what extent one could give precise figures about how this money could be spent in the course of colliery closures and so on. It is impossible to be so precise, because many unknown factors enter into this. These expenditures are dependent on, for example, the number of men who transfer to other collieries, the number of

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    men over 60 and the number of men who will resign voluntarily. They are also dependent on the number of exhaustions in considering the number of pit closures. In other words, this must be based on a projection of the previous Estimates, with the changed formula which has been applied.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. James Griffiths) pointed out that the rundown had to be controlled because of the size of this enormous problem. I entirely agree with him. However, he will accept that this has been the basic problem which we have discussed time and again in the last six months. It is desperately important that this industry should reach a plateau of stability, with men being able to work in the knowledge that they have a future. Until such time as we can get the industry in a viable condition, we shall stagger from Estimate to Estimate, with each year the men finding that the figures have been changed again. That is why it is justifiable for us to ask the House to deal with the rate of contraction in this way.
    If we were to keep in being many of the pits which are uneconomic, some of them grossly uneconomic, the effect would be to make the coal industry less economic and force it to face a crisis in the '70s, at the very period when its productivity should be at its peak. I have no doubt whatever that in the '70s this industry will have a level of productivity which will enable it to compete and remain viable. However, to reach that position it must shed some of its uneconomic sections—sections which it has been forced to carry for so long. For this reason we are trying to make this sort of contraction reasonable, if not completely acceptable. After all, measures which may be necessary may not always be completely acceptable. Nevertheless, we will have a better chance of meeting these problems if we take these measures.
    There were 16 postponed colliery closures last year and 14 more closures have been notified to the unions for this quarter. This is subject to deferment under the procedures which have now been embarked on, in addition to closures through exhaustion, although we cannot
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    forecast this with precision. These things can happen quickly.
    The hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) asked whether there were not a great many people involved in the question of colliery closures. The answer is that there are and that it is right that that should be the case. It is vital, when considering this matter, to get some sort of co-ordination in the provision of the necessary social services, such as alternative industries and Board of Trade measures. There must be co-ordination between the overall planning of economic activities and the N.C.B's programme.
    We have devised a system whereby the Coal Board presents its closure programme to the miners and unions—that is important because they are greatly involved; they have representations and provisions to make—and, at the same time, presents its views to the regional economic councils. The idea is not that these councils will act as pressure groups to stop all colliery closures. In a particular valley it may be perfectly logical for a council to say, "We accept both of these two closures, but we think it wrong that the first closure should take place before the second. The second should be closed before the first." It might be best to proceed in that way. Often a closure can be delayed while an alternative closure takes place, perhaps enabling another industry to come into the area. Matters of this sort can make a big difference to the area concerned.
    The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) started with a comparison between miners and brewers which, on reflection, he will probably regret. He will read it in the morning and find it hung round his neck for many years. There are quite significant differences between them, not least the wage packets.
    The hon. Member also referred to Alcan. I read the newspapers—there might be a lot less trouble in Parliament, perhaps, if people stopped doing that. The Board of Trade wrote to the companies in December saying that the Government would be glad to consider any proposals for a smelter linked to coal—a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Alcan has made it clear that it is very interested in a coal-based smelter. No details are available, and no contract has

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    been signed. It is a question of straight, commercial negotiations between the two parties, and it would be quite wrong for me to disclose details of commercial negotiations.
    Nevertheless, the price is very competitive—it reflects the Board's judgment of future production costs, and the need for additional outlets in this part of the ountry—but I must make it quite clear that the Board is expected to pay its way in the '70s, when the smelter will be available. In these prices, whatever they may be, one has to take into account the very high level of stocks in Scotland and, to a less extent, in the North of England. In December, N.C.B. undistributed stocks in Scotland amounted to 2·7 million tons as compared with 0·9 million tons, and in the North of England, 2·5 million tons compared with 0·7 million tons at the same time last year. In those circumstances, it is obviously sensible and right for the Board to get what business it can, provided it stands up to close and constant examination.
    Some hon. Members opposite referred to the Michael Colliery. The choice of supplying collieries for the smelter, as for any other consumers, is a matter for the Board, but I do not think that the Invergordon smelter, whatever other arguments there may be, has any direct elect on the future of the Michael Colliery, given the size of the stocks a available generally. I do not say that there may not be other factors.
    A statutory duty of the N.C.B. is the
    "…making supplies of coal vailable…at such prices, as may seem to them"—
    I did not write the Statute:
    "best calculated to further the public interest in all respects, including the avoidance of any undue or unreasonable preference or ad vantage."
    As the C.E.G.B. takes some 60 million tons of coal a year, over one-third of the of output, it seems that the price of coal for any individual industrial contract clearly can have virtually no effect on the prices charged to other consumers for 150 million tons of coal, or even
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    on the average price for electricity coals. In that respect, this is a perfectly legitimate matter for the Board, and it is to be commended for having tried to take an initiative.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) moved us a little further into the winter Estimates on the question of oil storage. He asked whether the amount involved was due to a rundown of the coal industry. I can tell him that there is no connection between the two. The increase in the provision for oil storage is explained by the fact that essential renewals of pipelines were greater than were expected, and by the increased use of the facilities. The increase in expenditure on oil storage is largely balanced by the increased receipts from the increased use of those facilities.
    The hon. Member for Honiton asked what could be done about stock-piling. In my view, there is nothing we can do about it at the moment if we start from the basic proposition that we cannot run down the industry faster than is at present envisaged. This means that we have to carry coal stocks at the moment. I hope that with increased export opportunities and with increased commercial possibilities we shall get rid of some of these. There is some deterioration, but it will last for a long time.
    I have been under a great deal of attack for running down the coal mining industry too fast. I do not think hon. Members always realise the size of the argument which hon. Members opposite have raised in terms of stocks and these additional prices. These are very big sums. We are holding very big stocks of coal and they are costing the nation a great deal of money. It is a price which we are entitled to expect the nation to pay for people who have done a great deal in the service of the nation and who now find themselves in difficulties through no fault of their own.
    Mr. Charles Morris (Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty's Household): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    DEFENCE (ARMY) SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1967–68
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding£18,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Army Services for the year.—[Mr. Charles Morris.]
    9.42 p.m.
    Mr. James Ramsden: I shall do my best not to talk this Motion out. Neither I nor any of my hon. Friends has the least wish to prevent the Services getting the money represented by this Supplementary Estimate. We think that in the present climate of opinion they had better get anything they can for they have been cut short enough by recent Government decisions. But this is the second year running that the Government have asked for a supplement to the Army Votes of about£18 million and this in itself is something which ought to be debated.
    Before coming to one or two specific points in the Estimates, there are some general comments I wish to make about this state of affairs. It must look very odd to the country, and in particular to informed opinion, that the Government cannot get their estimates of the Army Votes right to within £18 million, to within 3 per cent. It certainly looks odd to a number of people, as hon. Members can judge from their postbags and as the House can judge from the letter which appeared in this morning's Times from no less an authority than Lieutenant-General Sir George Cole, recently Director of Staff Duties, and more recently Commander-in-Chief, Eastern Command.
    On the one hand, we have the Government unable to frame Army Estimates to within 3 per cent. of the total Army Vote yet on the other they quite happily take for budgetary reasons major decisions affecting the future constitution of our forces and in particular our Reserve forces where the order of magnitude of the sum involved is only about a half of 1 per cent. of the total Army budget or, in terms of the whole defence budget, as little as one-five-hundredth. I refer to the decision to scrap the T. and
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    A.V.R.III and to do away with what remains of the Territorial Army. It is difficult for people observing these two contradictory factors in the Government policy not to have the feeling that there is a great deal of irresponsibility about the way in which these affairs are at present being conducted.
    My second general point concerns the extent to which the need for Supplementary Estimates of this size in two successive years appears to illustrate the strains that are being imposed on the Army Department by the Government's policies. It is fairly clear what has happened in order to produce this year the need for a Supplementary Estimate of this size. The Army Department was faced with the stringent cuts imposed by Ministers on next year's Estimates—those for 1968–69—which were announced last November. Faced with the need for very considerable extra expenditure in the short term on the Vote 10 items in these Estimates and up to a point on the Vote 7 items, what has it had to do? It has had to rush forward the expenditure into the present year.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. James Boyden)The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. James Boyden) indicated dissent—
    Mr. Ramsden: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. He will have an opportunity to answer.
    It then had to come to the House for a Supplementary Estimate. All this, or so it appears, was so that the total of next year's Estimates should wear at any rate a moderately respectable appearance and that the increase in next year's figures should not appear to verge too much on the absurd.
    I make these general points not because my hon. Friends are in any mood to complain when the Services are going to get some money, but to illustrate the essential dishonesty of the Government's financial case in relation to the economies which are being proposed and which the Government have been trying to make, largely for the benefit of their colleagues below the Gangway.
    I think it fair to point out that the effects of asking for Supplementary Estimates of this size in two successive years on public administration are to be deplored, and one hopes that when the

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    public Accounts Committee considers this, as no doubt it will, it will put the blame where it belongs, on Ministers and not on accounting officers, because all this stems directly from the policy in regard to the Army Department adopted by He Majesty's Government in the context of the recent cuts.
    I want to devote most of what I have to say to Vote 10, the initial expenditure on the Services emergency housing programme, but I should like to make a I related point in connection with Vote 7, Subhead C, where we see an increase of nearly£5 million in expenditure on vehicles. I presume that this is mostly attributable to the items which were referred to on 27th November by the secretary of State—the increased numbers of A.P.Cs, Chieftain tanks and so on, coming forward. If this is so—
    Mr. Boyden Mr. Boyden indicated assent.
    Mr. Ramsden: —and the Under-Secretary indicates that it is—it is related to the consequences, financial and otherwise, of withdrawing large numbers of men from Germany—and also elsewhere, but I specifically mention Germany—and redeploying them in this country. We were given on 5th July a list of the various units that are being redeployed back into this country from Germany. I will not go through them now, but all of them, it seems to me, w ill have to be provided with a duplicate set of vehicles. The vehicles in Germany will have to be kept there in case the troops have to go back. They will have to be maintained there, presumably by civilians. Some provision for barrack accommodation in case of emergency will have to be retained in Germany, and that also will need maintenance, which will be expensive. Although the Minister of Defence for Administration, in the debate to which I have referred, made no reference to the armour, I presume that the necessary tanks for the armoured forces which are 'being withdrawn will have to be kept in Germany on a care and maintenance basis.
    I presume also that there will be, as a result of this policy, a great deal of duplication, and consequently a good deal of extra expense. In this context the House ought to take a pretty close look at the im-
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    plications of this policy of redeployment. I hope that the Minister, in the eight minutes or so which I have left him, will do his best to help us understand the implications fully. To put the point as shortly as I can, there are two aspects to this question of the redeployment of our forces from Europe or elsewhere to this country.
    There is the foreign exchange aspect, the objective of saving foreign exchange, and there is the budgetary aspect, the question of the total cost of the new stance adopted. The foreign exchange aspect is one thing, its importance may be less now that substantial savings in foreign exchange in other parts of the world have been announced. It looks from the size of this Estimate and the scale of expenditure which the Government have had to go into—not only on vehicles, but more particularly in connection with the re-provision of married quarters and other accommodation—as though the budgetary cost as a result of this redeployment may be very considerably increased. In other words, it will cost, absolutely, more money to keep the same number of forces here than it would cost to have them in Germany.
    In the light of the last White Paper, Cmnd. 3515, and what is said in paragraph 26, about the main future stance of our forces being in Europe, I regard the implications of this as being extremely serious and I hope that the Under-Secretary will go as far as he can in setting out for the benefit of the House what this sum really amounts to in total and justifying, if he can, this redeployment in the light of the full budgetary cost as opposed merely to the foreign exchange saving.
    I have tried to put as shortly as I could what it is that bothers us in the main about these Supplementary Estimates. I should have liked to have asked the Under-Secretary at greater length how the re-provision of accommodation is proceeding, how far it has gone, what is the state of accompaniment for these units that have been brought home. compared with that which they enjoyed before their withdrawal. I should also like to know what effect this new stance looks like having upon recruiting. We shall wish to return to these matters, insofar as I have not been able to cover them, and insofar as the hon. Gentleman will not have time to give us a full reply, on

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    the Army Estimates, if not before. I think that I have said enough to indicate our anxieties and for the moment I will leave it there.
    9.55 p.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. James Boyden): The party opposite become curiouser and curiouser. The Government of the right hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) took Supplementary Estimates in the spring of 1960–61, the spring of 1961–62, the summer of 1962–63, the spring of 1962–63, and the spring of 196–364. Then he talks in the way that he has done. This Supplementary Estimate is in Vote 4, Civilians at Outstations; Vote 7, Stores and Equipment; and Vote 10, Defence Lands. We need£5 million more for outstation civilians, largely because of increased costs due to pay awards. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would applaud that. His party have prayed against all the Prices and Incomes Orders, and I should have thought that they would have favoured pay awards for industrial civil servants.
    Next,£2¼ million more is needed for stores and equipment, for ammunition and armoured vehicles—I shall deal with the misleading point which the right hon. Member made about anticipating cuts—and£10¾ million is needed for defence lands and buildings because of the housing programme, which I should have expected every right hon. and hon. Member opposite to applaud.
    Mr. Simon Wingfield Digby Mr. Simon Wingfield Digby (Dorset, West) rose—
    Mr. Boyden: I can put the matter in this way. The first general cause for the increase in cost was rises in pay and prices, mainly pay, accounting for£4·3 million out of the total of£18 million. This includes a very good pay award to industrial civil servants, good in the sense that it provided better incentives. There has been a complete reorganisation of industrial pay structure, and I should have thought that everyone would applaud it.
    The second general cause was a forecast loss of receipts of£3·65 million. This was a net figure.£4·4 million was due to delays in the sale of property, but it was partly offset by an increase on the
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    sale of stores of£750,000. The main delay in the sale of property was on the sale of the R.A.F. aerodrome at Hendon, which is valued at about£5 million. The reason for this is quite easy to see. It is a large scheme which needs to be dealt with thoroughly and carefully, and the reasons for the delay are certainly not within the control of the Ministry of Defence.
    Mr. Wingfield Digby Mr. Wingfield Digby rose—
    Mr. Boyden: No, I have only about three minutes.
    The third cause for the increase was the emergency housing programme. The original Estimate for 1967–68 was based on a requirement of 3,700 houses. The programme did not proceed as rapidly in 1966–67 as we had hoped, and to that extent the provision in 1967–68 was too low. On top of this, however, there was the accelerated withdrawal from overseas, so that it became necessary to increase the number of houses to 8,600. This is the main reason for the increase.
    I pay tribute here to the imagination shown by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works who, when chairman of the committee looking into this, drove through the scheme with great ingenuity and initiative so that, as it is running now, 80 to 85 per cent. of families coming home are together and move into a quarter almost at once. I pay tribute also to the Defence Lands staff who have really got to grips with the problem of buying houses; they are buying houses very well and most imaginatively.
    I should mention here—I hope the hon. Members opposite are not playing this one up—that in some areas there has been an outcry against the housing of soldiers. This is a most selfish attitude and quite unwarranted. I am pleased to say that in one case where an organisation was set up to resist Service housing, the people concerned saw the folly of their ways, turned round, and welcomed the troops in a suitable way.
    The right hon. Gentleman made a most misleading point about the increased cost in respect of tanks and ammunition. He knows very well that these things are planned a long way ahead, and the production period for a tank can last up to about 18 months. The record of the party opposite in the

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    development of the Chieftain tank was not all that hot as regards production. Production line tooling began in 1960. First deliveries of Chieftain were expected in 1963 but were delayed. Production was, in fact, started in 1964. There was a whole background of pessimism about what money should be provided for Chieftain tanks. This has been shown over the years.
    However, we have now an estimated annual production rate of about 180, which is very creditable to the people concerned, especially to the Barnbow factory. In 1965–66, the Estimate was for 116 Chieftains, but only 29 were completed. In 1966–67, the Estimate was for 150, and only 124 were completed. 1 his year it will be about 180.
    Mr. James Scott-Hopkins: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it right that the Under-Secretary of State should talk these important Estimates out or take them right up to 10 o'clock, when there are many hon. Members on this side who wish to make a contribution? The
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    hon. Gentleman is not answering the debate completely, and there are many matters involving a great deal of public money covered by the Estimates. Is it not up to the Government to provide time, if they wish to allow us to debate the matter further? The Estimates have been selected for debate by agreement between both sides. Is it not up to the Government to provide proper time?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Gentleman has made his point, though it is not a point of order. However, I believe that there will be other opportunities.
    It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

    CONSOLIDATION, &c., BILLS
    Mr. Ronald Bell discharged from the Select Committee appointed to join with a Select Committee appointed by the Lords on Consolidation, &c., Bills; Mr. Ian Percival added.—[Mr. Charles Morris.]

    NURSES RULES
    10.1 p.m.
    Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee: I beg to move.
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Nurses (Amendment) Rules, Approval Instrument 1967 (S.I., 1967, No. 1704), dated 17th November, 1967, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24th November, be annulled.
    I always think that it is as well on these occasions, for the benefit of those outside this House who are not as well acquainted with our procedures as we are, to make it clear at the outset that when in cases of this kind the Opposition want to draw attention to a Statutory Instrument, the proper procedural way of doing so is to pray against it. While I appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary understands that that does not mean that we are hostile to the contents of the Statutory Instrument—indeed, there is no intention of seeking to turn it down—the only procedural device open to us is this one. That is the object of tonight's discussion.
    It is valuable for there sometimes to be opportunities in this House for discussion of what at first blush may appear to be detailed matters of this kind, and there is certainly great benefit in a close scrutiny of all Statutory Instruments. I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary would not resent the close, watchful care with which, at least, the present Opposition watches all Statutory Instruments which emanate from his Department.
    It may be helpful if I first, however briefly, seek to explain what I understand, in heading only, to be the objects of this otherwise seemingly detailed Instrument. I understand that it has four objectives. The first is to extend the date a little, or to define it more accurately, by which an examinee for the final examination must have attained the age of 21 before he or she may sit. This is Rule 13, and I will return to it presently.
    The second objective is to remove the restriction at present applying on fever nurses which prevents their name being entered on the Register before they attain the age of 21. This is covered by Rule 16.
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    The third objective is to shift the emphasis, as I shall seek to show, significantly where a nurse applies to have his or her name restored to the Register—that is Rule 38—and, fourthly, Rule 67 extends the category of those who may be qualified as nurse tutors.
    Since I am certain that this will be an agreeable and friendly discussion, I shall start by rapping the Parliamentary Secretary sharply on his Parliamentary knuckles. To thread one's way through the various matters which we are discussing, it is necessary to have before one no fewer than six Acts of Parliament or Statutory Instruments. One has to start with the Nurses Act, 1957; one has to go on to the Nurses Rules, 1961, which were made under that Act; one has to go on to the amendment of those Rules of 1965; one has to go on to the amendment of those in 1966; one has to go on to the Teachers of Nursing Act, 1967; and now here we are with the further amending Rules of 1967.
    I should like to say to the Parliamentary Secretary that this is not just simply a debating point. Let me illustrate factually what I mean. There could hardly be a more detailed provision than that which, in this Statutory Instrument, further amends Rule 13, the very small point of the date by reference to which the age of 21 is calculated. One normally goes straight to the parent Regulation of 1961, but one does not and it there because Rule 13, which governs it, was amended in 1965; so one has to go to the amending Regulation of 1965, which one then finds has been further amended in 1966 and 1967.
    I really must say to him firmly that while he of course takes personal responsibility, and wishes to, as is normal procedure, I must ask his help in the ceaseless war which I wage, not merely with his Department but with others, to ensure that in intensely human matters like this we should have these things set out clearly and see that they do not get out of control, for this is a very good example of legislation, some of it at secondhand, which has got quite out of control. I hope, incidentally, that he will be able to tell us that he and the General Nursing Council will be issuing some simple explanation of the changes which are now being made in the Instrument before us.

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    The first objective of this Statutory Instrument we need spend very little time over. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, if he will be so good, to make clear, what I think must be the case, that this is simply a matter of tightening up by definition; it is a simple and convenient method; there is greater precision of drafting in the Statutory Instrument now before us, so that the appropriate paragraph of the Nurses Rules makes it just that bit much clearer than it was before. I assume that the General Nursing Council has taken the opportunity to submit to him this matter to deal with anyway. This is a comparatively small and detailed matter with which I will not deal except to ask for that confirmation.
    The second is an equally small, detailed point. When I say that, of course it is important to those concerned. A fever nurse can take her finals before she is 21. As things are at present, there is exemption for her; but she cannot apply to go on the register before she is 21. That is the very small change which the Parliamentary Secretary is seeking to put More us as the second provision in this Statutory Instrument; it is the deletion of the proviso to Rule 16(1).
    The third is a more substantial point. This House is always very watchful and careful, and need not make any apology for that, when it is dealing with the rights of individuals. With the third object of this Statutory Instrument, that is to say, the amendment of Rule 38 of the Nurses Rules, 1961, we are dealing with the restoration of a nurse's name to the register. Clearly, this is a matter of the greatest importance to the nurse concerned. It is also a matter of importance to the great profession of which she is a number, and it is obviously right that there should be stringent requirements before her name can be restored. The House can understand that.
    It might be helpful to have a little explanation of the changes which the Parliamentary Secretary now puts before us. The nurse applying to have her name restored to the register will have to find two referees
    "with knowledge of the facts found against her".
    I do not quarrel with that, but the Parliamentary Secretary will understand that it places on such a nurse an additional
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    burden. It may be perfectly right. It is done upon the advice of the Nursing Council, and that is very powerful advice, but I should like to feel that the Parliamentary Secretary and his Minister have applied their minds to this request as well.
    It is clearly nothing like so easy for a nurse in this position to find two or more persons who have to be within the class specified in the Order and, in addition, have knowledge of the facts found against her, particularly if they are facts found against her some appreciable time previously. I repeat that I do not necessarily quarrel with it, but I make no apology for looking closely at matters concerning the personal rights of individuals, as does the House.
    The second change is in her favour. Whereas before her referees had to be able to give a reference as to her character and the nature of her employment before the date of her removal from the register as well as after, it is now loosened slightly in her favour, but this is only where practicable, and this seems to be an eminently wise requirement.
    Third, the Parliamentary Secretary is removing a slight doubt which might apply in the rule as it is at present, where it is provided that, if necessary, the investigating committee may call for
    "such other evidence as the investigating committee may reasonably require."
    Quite obviously, a nurse seeking to have her name restored to the register might be in doubt as to what evidence the investigating committee might reasonably require. As I understand it, the Parliamentary Secretary is now doing away with that proviso, which is a change within the interests of the nurse.
    I am not generally hostile to this, but in matters of such delicacy I should like to be clear that thought has been given, with particular reference to my first point. Perhaps I might leave it with a gentle and friendly dig at the Parliamentary Secretary. If he studies the Amendment carefully, he will find that whereas ministers of religion appear in small print in the Rule, the words have initial capital letters in his Amendment. I am obliged to him for his gentle bow to ministers of churches and his further blow to humanists in this House.
    I continue with my fourth point on this set of Regulations. It is perhaps the most important. It extends the

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    categories of those who may be qualified as nurse tutors. The Amendments to Rule 67 which are now before us add three new categories to those who may be qualified as nurse tutors. The first is a teacher with three years' nursing experience. That is generalising the careful provisions which are set out in front of us. The first thing that we should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary, repeating again that we on this side are not hostile to this Amendment, is whether he can assist the House by telling us how many people, according to his information, will be affected by the Amendment; that is to say, those who will henceforward, if the House so agrees, be eligible as nurse tutors under this provision. Can he tell us how many teachers there are with three years' nursing experience? With, as I understand, a chronic shortage of nurse tutors, this seems a wise provision and one which certainly does not dilute the standards otherwise set out in Rule 67 of those who can qualify for this very important teaching and lecturing position. It would be helpful to have some idea of approximately how many, at the moment at any rate, are likely to be affected. The layman would suppose that however valuable—and they are immensely valuable in themselves—the numbers are likely to be comparatively small.
    Also, I should be grateful for an explanation about one of the requirements of these teachers who have had three years' nursing experience—I am using that phrase loosely—namely, that they shall have spent not less than a year in the teaching of nursing at an approved training institution under qualified supervision. I should like to know whether there is an appreciable number of persons teaching under supervision at an approved training institution and, if so, what their qualifications are. At first blush it seems a little unusual that they should be in this position. If the Parliamentary Secretary could assist further about this group of people the House would be much obliged.
    The second category of those added are the health visitors—again I am using shorthand—with two years' nursing experience. The House would be grateful for the briefest of indications about how many this is likely to cover.
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    The third group is very wide; that is to say, those shown in paragraph 7(e),
    "in any particular case she appears to the Council and the Minister to be qualified for the teaching of nursing otherwise than as mentioned…"
    in any of the provisions of Rule 67 as it will become amended. In other words, with this very important reservation that the Council and the Minister, as I understand it, must individually approve each case, he is taking unto himself blanket powers. The House is always watchful about this, quite rightly. Admittedly, in this case the safeguard lies in the immense standing of the Nursing Council which, if it does not agree, has the veto. The Minister would act only upon its recommendation. However, at first blush this is a fairly major step in a profession of great repute, the nursing profession. It might be helpful if the Minister would briefly outline the kind of person he has in mind and how frequently he would envisage having to use this power, or whether it is a reserve power so that he shall not frequently have to return to the House for Amendment of a detailed nature of the kind that we now have in front of us.
    One of the most significant parts of this Statutory Instrument is that which deals with those who may be brought in as nursing tutors and who have teaching experience. I must not explore this in any width, but does this presage a change in the Ministry's policy, and does the hon. Gentleman envisage that some of the future training of nurses, and in this case nurse tutors, is likely to be co-ordinated with the training of teachers?
    The Minister is taking power to allow teachers to become nurse tutors in certain specified circumstances. There have been some interesting developments here. We cannot explore them in any depth, but there have been some interesting suggestions for the combining of the training of certain people, including nurses, whose work among young people tends to have certain features in common. The hon. Gentlemant will be aware that in certain colleges of education there are proposals for bringing in nurses for this purpose, for parallel training and drawing on experience between both professions. It will be helpful to know whether the new powers in paragraph 7 herald a

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    change, or whether they stand on their own.
    I make no apology, and I feel sure hat the hon. Gentleman would not expect me to, for having detained the House on a comparatively detailed matter. The House takes the deepest interest in, and has the greatest concern for, the nursing profession as a whole, and therefore the training of its members, or certain aspects of it, which is what we are discussing tonight, is an extremely important matter. I sometimes think that one of our difficulties is that we are so overborne and overburdened with great weighty national matters that we cannot always give sufficient time to exceedingly human and, some would say, detailed matters of this kind. I hope that it will go out from both sides of the House that we are never too busy to take trouble over and pause to do our duty in considering comparatively detailed instructions which deeply affect the lives of the members of a highly honourable profession.
    10.23 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Julian Snow): The House could not possibly object in arty sense of the term to the way in which the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) introduced this important matter.
    Last Session the Teachers of Nursing Bill was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Tom McMillan). It was warmly welcomed by both sides of the House as a useful Measure to increase the supply of qualified nurse tutors. It was duly enacted, and it received the Royal Assent on 22nd March last year.
    I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I deal with the provisions of this Statutory Instrument in the reverse order to that which he adopted. To give effect to that Act a revision of Rule 67 of the Nurses Rules was necessary. The principal object of this Statutory Instrument is to make this Amendment, and the three minor Amendments mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, to which I shall refer later.
    Until the passing of the Teachers of Nursing Act the General Nursing Council could grant certificates only to those teachers of nurses who had undergone prescribed training in institutions
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    approved by the Council. The powers did not permit the granting of a certificate to a person who had not undergone training in an institution approved for the purpose, even though the Council regarded the person as qualified to teach nursing.
    The aim of the Act was to enable the Council to recruit as qualified tutors nurses who needed no further training and could therefore be immediately available. It also removed an injustice from those nurses who had teaching qualifications which could not be recognised and who, if they nevertheless took posts as nurse tutors, could only be paid and graded as unqualified tutors.
    The Act achieved this by giving the Council powers to make rules prescribing qualifications which should be held before a certificate could be granted, and also permitting the granting of certificates to persons who do not possess the prescribed qualifications, but who, nevertheless, appear to both the Council and the Ministry of Health to be qualified to teach nursing. This latter provision should, we hope, permit flexibility in dealing with unusual cases or new qualifications.
    The House will probably accept the general proposition that with the development of the National Health Service, with new techniques and new uses of nurses, it has been probably a rather more necessary step to amend the rules in a shorter space of time than has been the case in the earlier history of the nursing profession. This does not denote any reduction in standards it just means that it has been necessary to make amendments rather more frequently than before.
    The amendment to Rule 67 is made under the new powers and adds to those who may be certified as teachers of nurses, nurses who have specified nursing experience and who either are recognised by the Department of Education and Science as qualified teachers or are on the roll of teachers of the Council for the training of health visitors.
    It may be argued that there are other qualifications which might equally well have been recognised and included in the revised rule, but the General Nursing Council takes the view at present that it has taken the steps as far as they can be

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    approved. But it is always open to any nurse possessing any other qualification which she considers equips her for a teaching post to apply to the Council for recognition. It could be that as a result of considering individual applications the Council will decide that some other particular qualification is generally acceptable, and this can be added when the Rules are next revised.
    What I wish to say now in part answers one question put to me by the hon. Member, although on a matter of detail I shall have to look at the question again later. The effect of the changes should be to enable about 30 additional nurses to be given certificates as teachers of nursing and perhaps at the rate of a further 10 per year thereafter. This does not quite answer the hon. Member's question but it is interesting information. This will be a welcome addition to the numbers of qualified tutors.
    The numbers of qualified tutors in posts has varied very little over the past few years. In March, 1967, there were 1,110 whole-time and 46 part-time qualified tutors in post, compared with 1,097 whole-time and 41 part-time in March, 1964. During the same period there was a marked increase in the numbers of unqualified tutors, there being 738 whole-time and 99 part-time unqualified tutors in post in March, 1967, compared with 567 whole-time and 116 part-time in March, 1964.
    I fully recognise the great work and contribution made by unqualified tutors, but it is not satisfactory that they should form so high a proportion of the whole, and any addition to the number of qualified tutors is to be welcomed. There is no generally accepted figure for the number of tutors needed, nor general agreement on the optimum ratio of tutors to students. To meet this situation officers of my Department will be joining representatives of the General Nursing Council and Royal College of Nursing in a working party to look into the numbers and pattern of teaching staff to meet current and foreseeable needs for the training of student nurses.
    At present, there is a shortage of tutors, which is aggravated by maldistribution, but the position will be much clearer when the working party has done its work and it will then be pos-
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    sible for both the Council and my Department to make a coherent plan for meeting the requirements of the service for teaching nurses.
    I am well aware of a feeling among many nurse tutors that their role and their problems in the training of nurses are not fully appreciated. To help overcome this, my Department has held two meetings with the representatives of the tutors at which their problems have been discussed, and I hope that there will be other such meetings. It is sometimes argued that the best way to improve the number of nurse tutors is to improve their pay. I would remind the House that the pay of nurses, including nurse tutors, is at present being considered by the National Board for Prices and Incomes, and we hope to have its report in the next few weeks. It would not be profitable, therefore, to discuss their pay until we do receive the report.
    It is also sometimes suggested that the posts of nurse tutors are undergraded and, in particular, that the Salmon Committee did not do them justice in this respect. But that Committee had a predominantly professional membership and four of the five nursing members were certificated teachers of nursing who had previous experience as nurse tutors. It considered the senior nursing staff structure very thoroughly and while its recommendations preserved approximately the present position of the basic grade of nurse tutors, they provided higher posts in nurse teaching than heretofore, with much better prospects of promotion, incidentally. The Minister accepted the Salmon recommendations, and these are now being tested in a number of pilot schemes. If these should reveal any anomalies in the grading of tutors compared with other nursing staff, remedial action can, of course, be considered.
    It is sometimes also argued that the teachers of nurses should be related for pay and grading to teachers in colleges of further education rather than to the generality of nursing posts—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not go too wide of his own Order. It does not relate to the pay of nursing teachers.
    Mr. Snow: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to paint a rather broad canvas because, as the hon. Gentleman pointed

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    out, the conscience of the House is concerned about the nursing profession and I did not want to leave any uncertainty. But I take your point, with great respect.
    I was saying that it seems to me that the current trend on basic nursing training is towards closer integration of theory and practice which, if it continues, seems likely to involve the teaching staff more closely and to enhance their links with the nursing administrative hierarchy. Many who serve for a time as nurse tutors subsequently move on to other nursing posts and may become matrons.
    I was very happy the other evening, incidentally, to accept an invitation from the Royal College of Nursing to meet a very large body of matrons. It was quite a formidable evening and I learned a great deal from them. I believe that we are now over the hump as far as the public attitude to matrons is concerned. They are very fine women, and, contrary to some of the old stories, they definitely march with the times: we owe them a great debt.
    There will be less difficulty in this kind of movement if the salaries of the various nursing posts are related to one another: that is why the idea of going outside the immediate nursing profession is probably not a good one.
    I now turn to the other three Rules which are to be amended—
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves Rule 67, would he deal with my point about whether this is a pointer towards a change in the training of nurse tutors? I ask for only the briefest of indications.
    Mr. Snow: No. It does not indicate a major or significant change. It is to give more flexibility. I give that assurance.
    I turn to the other three Rules which are being amended. I take the hon. Member's point about the way in which the Statutory Instrument is drafted in respect of Rule 13. I will not conceal from the House that it took me a long time to understand it. It does not seem very good sense to have to go through six previous documents to achieve understanding. The Select Committee on Statutory Instruments queried this proposal. They wondered why it had not
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    been possible to reprint the whole of the draft, possibly with the amending words in italics.
    We provided an explanation. It was not merely a question of an Amendment to the original 1961 provision, for there were the subsequent amendments of 1965 and 1966, and it was considered in this case not desirable to reproduce the whole Rule because that would have necessitated three forms of special lettering in the amendment. It is a nice point, and I feel that my Ministry is wise in accepting that, generally speaking, it will be desirable to reintroduce the whole Rule with the amending words, perhaps, in special type. No one has suffered more than I have in trying to find out where the truth lies in amendments over the years.
    The need for amending Rule 13 arises from a change in the General Nursing Council's timetable for examinations. These were usually held in February. June and October, but in future it will sometimes happen that the written examination will be held on the last day of the preceding month—for example, on 31st January for the February examination. This arose from the fact that the examining authorities needed a little more time to bring together the necessary examining staff. Since Rule 13 required a student nurse to have reached the age of 21 years and to have completed a specified period of training by the last day of the month in which the examination is held, bringing the date of the written examination forward a couple of days could have involved a student nurse in three or four months delay before she was eligible to take it.
    The best way to work that out is to get a calendar and to work it backwards. By relating the requirement instead to the month in which the examination was completed, this is avoided. Similarly, nurses taking an 18-month course of training to obtain a second qualification would also have been held back by the change in timetable, and their position is likewise safeguarded.
    The Amendment to Rule 16 arises from the closure of the Fever Register as from 31st December, 1967. Under the old Rule 16 a student fever nurse could take the final examination at the age of 20 but could not be registered until she was 21. The Amendment was designed

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    to enable any who had passed the examination but who had not reached their 21st birthday before 31st December nevertheless to be registered.
    The Amendment to Rule 38, on which the hon. Member spent some time, is designed simply to correct a fault in the drafting of the original Rule. As it was previously worded, Rule 38(2) required applicants for restoration to the Register, where practicable, to submit two character references. This was never the intention. The Council's intention was that an applicant must submit two references and that the referees should, if possible, have knowledge of the applicant before her name was removed from the Register. It is this latter requirement which is not always practicable, and with the Amendment the Rule correctly states the Council's requirements.
    I hope that I have made that point clear because restoration to the Register produces understandable anxieties in the public's mind. Nevertheless, it seems to us that a change which is fully approved by the General Nursing Council should receive the approval of the House.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: It is important that we are clear on this point. I thought I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that the Rule, as it will be if this Order is approved, will say that a nurse who applies must find two referees with knowledge of the facts found against her, if that is possible.
    Mr. Snow: Yes.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I suggest, however, that the words "if possible" are not to be found in the Rule.
    Mr. Snow: Nevertheless, that is certainly the intention of the redrafted Rule. If it is capable of the doubt which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, we will have a look at it again, although I am advised that that is not the case. The real intention is that two witnesses must be provided in the circumstances I have suggested and that, where practicable, the nature of the employment before removal should be known to those witnesses. I
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    take the hon. Gentleman's point that reasonable doubt may exist and I assure him that we will look into the matter.
    The hon. Gentleman went on to refer to teaching experience and he asked whether colleges of education could provide the sort of facilities for at least part of the training which these people should undergo. I am advised that no such proposal has yet been made, but we will be happy to look at the matter in conjunction with the General Nursing Council.
    Provided a scheme fitted in with the general interlocking of these provisions with associated professions, we would certainly be sympathetic to these ideas; provided, of course, that the proposals were approved in principle by the General Nursing Council. I am advised that, while there is no intention of integrating courses with teacher training courses, there is a course running now at the Technical Teachers' College at Burton, which we are watching carefully.
    I hope that I have been able to allay some of the hon. Gentleman's doubts and have answered the points he raised. Accordingly, I ask the House not to approve the Motion.
    10.43 p.m.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The whole House is obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for his careful explanations and for the interesting statistics which he gave, which, if nothing else, undoubtedly justifies the Amendments before us. I hope he will feel that, apart from the important nature of these matters, my intervention—in which I pointed out that the phrase "where practicable" refers exclusively to the employment before the date of removal of the nurse's name—justifies our going into the subject carefully.
    If it is the Minister's intention that the Rule, as amended, shall do what he said it should do, he will, with respect, have to return to the matter again. But, in view of his undertaking, and of what I sought to say at the outset, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    EDUCATION, STRENSALL (PRIMARY SCHOOL)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Grey.]
    10.44 p.m.
    Mr. R. H. Turton: I wish to raise the urgent question of the need for a new primary school at Strensall. I do so for two reasons: first, because of the denial of adequate facilities for education for primary children in my constituency—an inadequacy which will grow much worse in the next few years—and, secondly, because this case illustrates the lack of co-ordination of information within the Ministry, a lack which makes the Department disregard local know-lodge of educational needs in different parts of the country.
    Strensall is a village of about 1,000 inhabitants, just six miles north of York. There is a large military camp near the village and the children there would, if conditions were adequate, like to attend the local primary school.
    The primary school building is over 100 years old. It was designed to accommodate 100 children, but there are at present in that school about 170 children. The building cannot take that number. Therefore, at some period of the day, 140 of them are crammed into the school—and I use the word "crammed" because, to do this, the teachers have to use a passage room to take one class. That means that the teaching there is constantly interrupted by people going to and fro on their normal business.
    For the remainder of the children, for the last six years one class has been taken in the village hall. It happens that the playgrounds here are inadequate. They are divided into three small sections where the children cannot possibly be properly supervised. They are also dangerous. So the P.T. class is taken in the village hall, thereby upsetting the provision of the pre-school training. The nursery school ought to be going into the village hall, but that is interrupted by the school having to be there.
    As there is no dining hall at the school, the children have their dinner in a dining
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    hall which is about a quarter of a mile away in the opposite direction. There is, therefore, the position in which the village hall is a quarter of a mile from the school in one direction and the dining hall is about the same distance in the other direction. Again, as the conditions are so inadequate, the dining hall has to be used for a class directly the dinners have been cleared.
    That is the present inadequacy of the school. The teachers have to cope with the problem of a primary school dispersed over three separate places, the very point which paragraph 1083 of the Plowden Report brought out as being such a great drawback.
    This is a growing problem. The development of Strensall has been delayed because there have been no adequate sewerage facilities. None the less, in the last two years 65 new houses have been built there, and at the moment planning permission has been granted for another 61 houses, making 126 in all. The sewerage scheme will be completed early next year, and plans are being made for the expansion of a village of 1,000 inhabitants to one of, on various estimates, 8,000 to 12,000: it will be expanded by, perhaps, nine or ten times.
    In view of these facts, the North Riding County Council, the education authority, in its 1968–69 programme, put Strensall down for a new primary school. Unfortunately, it was struck out by the Minister. North Riding County Council estimated that if the school was in the 1968–69 programme it would be built in time for the new expansion. Not deterred, the county council put the school in its 1969–70 programme. To its consternation it was again struck out by the Minister. The President of the Board of Trade, when Secretary of State for Education and Science, wrote to me on 8th August last explaining this decision. He said:
    "I am told that the new sewerage scheme is not likely to bring more people to Strensall until 1970–71."
    As the new sewerage scheme is being completed in 1969 and as, already, plans have been made for a large housing estate in the area something appears to have gone wrong with the Minister's information. Even on his own figures, if he admits that there is to be an expansion of this village in 1970–71, he should

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    have allowed North Riding County Council to put the scheme in its 1969–70 programme because a school takes at least a year or 18 months to build.
    North Riding County Council, meeting this difficulty, has decided to place, as a temporary measure, a mobile classroom next to the dining hall. This proposal is viewed with a certain amount of suspicion by my constituents. Although they welcome it as an alleviation of the present inadequacy, they fear that it will be used as an excuse for ministerial inaction. One mobile classroom will not meet the problem of the expansion of the village after 1970.
    My requests tonight are two. The first is that the right hon. Lady will look into this matter and give us, tonight if possible, a clear assurance that this school will be put into the 1970–71 building programme, and if possible that she will allow the start of the school to be put in hand earlier so that it can be built in time for the expansion. I believe that this school is at the top of the North Riding County Council requirements for the 1970–71 building programme. Secondly, I ask her to look into this problem of the co-ordination of information and her Department's use of local knowledge.
    This is the second case I have had in recent years in this area around York where the local education authority has been pressing for the building of a new school because of inadequacy of conditions. The last was at Oswaldkirk, where conditions were very similar. I brought this to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle), then Minister of Education, and I got him to look into it. He immediately authorised the Oswaldkirk new school to be built. I ask the right hon. Lady to follow his example.
    10.55 p.m.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Miss Alice Bacon): I am aware of the poor conditions at the school, which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has brought to our notice on a number of occasions. I sympathise both with the local parents and with the teachers who are working
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    under such adverse conditions. I agree that it would be to the benefit of everybody if this mid-Victorian school could be replaced on a new site. Our problem, as the right hon. Gentleman will realise, is that resources are limited and that priority has to be given to the projects which are most urgent.
    As the right hon. Gentleman knows, authorities are invited to submit to my Department proposals for major buildings, and these are considered in the light of the national as well as the local priorities. First and foremost, it is necessary to meet essential basic needs arising out of the rising and shifting population; in other words, providing school places for children who would otherwise have no school to attend. Projects over£20,000 are allocated specifically by my Department. We all know that there are many old buildings which ought to be replaced, legacies from the 19th century, and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, this school was built in the middle of the 19th century.
    Since the war, the House will recognise, there have been great movements of population and increases of population. New housing estates have arisen. Even new towns have been built; and as the homes have gone up so we have had to provide schools. Otherwise, there would have been many children without any school at all. So all Governments since the war have had to give priority to these new areas and provide schools for the new populations rather than the replacement of unsatisfactory schools. I wish it had been possible for all Governments to do more in the second direction as well as the first, but I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will realise that the priority has had to be to provide schools where there were no schools for children to attend.
    The right hon. Gentleman raised with me on one occasion the provision of hot water at the school, and it was provided about a year ago. But with regard to schemes of this kind every local authority gets a block allocation annually from which it is free to select its own projects that cost less than£20,000. So the right hon. Gentleman will see that a project of this kind, the provision of hot water in a school, is entirely one for the local authority to deal with out of its minor works programme.

    181
    As I said, we have to provide for these new areas, and it is only after the overriding needs of the new areas and the areas with increased populations have been met that improvement projects can be considered. Unfortunately, there are a great many old schools throughout the country which are working under conditions which in their various ways are as had as, and a number even worse than, those at Strensall.
    Since we cannot do everything at once, priority in major building programmes has to be given to the most urgent cases.
    These include some where adverse conditions in old schools have also been aggravated by rapidly increasing numbers, and some where the children are also suffering from educational handicaps arising out of bad housing, overcrowded urban conditions and other forms of social deprivation.
    We thought it right to give some priority in the 1969–70 major building programme to the replacement of very bad old buildings in what are called educational priority areas; that is where the children suffer the double disadvantage of attending very poor schools and of coming from rather unsatisfactory housing conditions. I am afraid that Strensall does not qualify for special consideration under either of those headings.
    I am sure that no one who knows the area, least of all its inhabitants, could claim that children are labouring under additional handicaps of the sort encountered by children in some of the most socially deprived areas in our large cities and conurbations. Neither, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, is there as yet evidence of substantially increasing pressure of numbers.
    The number of children on roll this January, 163, is only one more than the number on roll a year ago, and considerably less than the average number on roll for January in the previous four years. It is true that numbers are expected to rise slightly over the next few years, from small housing developments already approved, but no really significant increase is expected unless further housing developments take place. The right hon. Gentleman said that there is a lack of communication and knowledge. We are dependent on the local education
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    authority for our information in these matters.
    I understand from the local education authority that these further housing developments are dependent upon the new sewer, which is again dependent upon the decisions on the ultimate size of the village, about which no firm conclusions have yet been formulated. On existing estimates of housing, the local authority has informed me that it thinks that the numbers will rise to about 190 in the summer term of 1971, and drop again to about 180 in the summer term of 1972.
    It is true that this school was first submitted by the North Riding local education authority for the 1968–69 programme and was resubmitted for the 1969–70 programme. I make no point about that because I know that every local authority has to have its own priorities within an area just as my Department has to look at the priorities of one local authority against those of another. In the bids that the North Riding County Council made for its 1968–69 programme and 1969–70 programme, this particular school was not high on the projects submitted to my Department.
    Although it recognises that this school was particularly bad the authority considered that further projects were more urgent. I make no point on that except to say that I am sure that within the authority's area there were some of these areas that I have described, where children had to have roofs over their heads because there just was no school at all. As the right hon. Gentleman says, the council has given a high priority to this school in the coming year's programme.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked me to say that I would immediately say that we could put this school in the next year's programme. As he realises, my Department is now sifting through the various bids which have been made by local authorities throughout the country, and we shall be looking at every one, trying to sort out some priority as between one local education authority and another. I cannot go any further than that tonight, except to say that I have noted everything that he has said. The local authority has now given the school a higher priority and we shall

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    be looking at it with all the other very urgent cases that we have to take into account.
    Mr. Turton: Would the right hon. Lady consider coming from Leeds to Strensall to check on whether I am right or the local authority is right about the expansion?
    Miss Bacon: I cannot promise to do that, much as I frequently enjoy going into the area. This is something that we should sort out with the local authority. This is my information and the right hon. Gentleman will realise that we have to take account of what the local authority tells us.
    In the meantime, the authority is doing what it can to ameliorate conditions at the school. As the right hon. Gentleman said, it is providing a mobile classroom which will be sited, I understand, next to the dining room. I know that there has been some apprehension among the people in the village lest the
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    provision of a mobile classroom should in any way militate against the provision of the new school at a later date. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that that will not be so.
    I cannot at present give any indication of when we shall be able to approve the replacement of the Strensall school, because we have to look at all the projects, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are aware of the problems there and I shall be very pleased when we can agree to this project, which will be, as I said, when circumstances permit. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way he has brought the matter to our notice. I know he will understand that we have a great legacy from the past, and I should be only too happy if we could get rid not only of the Strensall school, but of all schools of this kind in the country.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at six minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, having been called together by the LORD CHANCELLOR, pursuant to the Resolution of October 31 last:
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.
The Lord Penrhyn—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Lord Lucas of Chilworth—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
LORD COBBOLD: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships a Message from Her Majesty the Queen, signed by her own hand. The Message is as follows:
"I have received your Address praying that the Summer Time (No. 2) Order 1967 be made in the form of the draft laid before your House.
"I will comply with your request."

TRIBUTES TO THE EARL OF LONGFORD
2.36 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, it is with very mixed feelings that the first occasion on
2
which I address your Lordships as Leader of your Lordships' House is to make some remarks about the noble Earl, Lord Longford, on the occasion of his resignation, and to thank him on behalf of us all for—I never quite know the right word—guiding, presiding, being with us and generally acting as Leader of this House over the last three years.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the last occasion on which the Leader of the House resigned was when the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury (who I am sorry to say is still not very well and is not able to be with us to-day), was succeeded by the noble Earl, Lord Home; and there was an earlier occasion when the Duke of Devonshire resigned in 1904. It is always questionable whether we are in order in having this sort of discussion, but one of the charms, and indeed one of the virtues, of your Lordships' House is that we can more or less do anything we like, provided that your Lordships' agree, because it rests with your Lordships as to how we conduct our affairs.
The noble Earl has graced our councils with charm, learning, wit—a wit that touched but never wounded very deeply—and we shall miss him sorely from the Front Benches, where he has occupied a place, either on this side of the House or on the other side, for some twenty years. He is a friend of us all, and I would venture to say that there are few among us who command so much affection or indeed respect. There is always a danger on this sort of occasion

3
that remarks of this kind sound rather like an epitaph. The noble Earl is anything but dead. In his letter of resignation to the Prime Minister he said that he intended to take his place with zest on the Back Benches, and I do not doubt that it will be zest which is entirely typical of the noble Earl. I am sure we look forward to those zestful contributions. We shall indeed have one tomorrow afternoon.
We respect his reasons for leaving the Government. We are sorry that he has gone, but I am sure I speak for all of your Lordships when I say that we shall welcome him here in any capacity whenever he can come, and we know that we shall benefit from his counsel. He epitomises, above all, a man of principle, a man in whom all the Christian virtues shine forth, and none of us could have had a better friend or counsellor than the noble Earl.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should very much like, in the unavoidable absence of my noble Leader, to associate myself and my colleagues on these Benches with the tribute which the noble Lord the Leader of the House has so justly and so appropriately paid to the noble Earl, Lord Longford. I assume, since I am following the steps of our new Leader, that I am in order in so doing. I did not know your Lordships' House, or hardly at all, before the war. However, at least so far as the two post-war decades are concerned, I think I can truly say that as a House we have been most fortunate in our Leaders. We have certainly been so in the case of the noble Earl. Every Leader, of course, has his own distinctive style, especially if, as is most certainly the case with the noble Earl, he is himself very much an individualist. Therefore, to his task the noble Earl has brought his own distinctive qualities.
In the first place, there is his gift for personal friendship. There must be very few Members of your Lordships' House who do not count Frank Longford as a personal friend. The noble Earl holds his convictions—some might say, in certain instances, his prejudices—strongly and sincerely, yet he has always been prepared to look at the other side of the question, an invaluable quality in a Leader of the House. He has also an especially
4
generous nature. I have seen this, as I think we all have, on many occasions, but never more so than in his encouragement in a very personal way to the newer Members of your Lordships' House. Above all, the noble Earl has always shown himself prepared to stand up for the rights of this House. However much we may have disagreed with him on this or that, we all know that he has always held the interests of your Lordships' House, its institution and its Members very much and very steadily at heart.
My Lords, I should like to add that I feel that his resignation, the reasons for which I, too, respect, comes at a particularly unfortunate moment. We know how ardently he has espoused the cause of House of Lords reform, and it is I think unfortunate that at this precise moment we should find ourselves deprived of what I might term his inner counsel. There are consolations, of course, for his resignation. We have lost a good Leader, but I am quite certain that we are gaining an excellent Back-Bencher. We know, too, that the noble Earl is above all a many-sided man. He may now find himself freer to make his contribution also outside your Lordships' House in those special fields which are his own particular interest.
Finally, my Lords, we have the consolation of knowing that although we are losing Lord Longford as our Leader we are gaining, in his successor, someone of very real stature. We may regret—we do regret—that the noble Earl is passing on the baton of Leadership, but we know from personal experience that he could not be passing it into safer or surer hands than those of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. Not only is Lord Shackleton a personal friend of all of us, but he has, over the years—and I am sure that all your Lordships will agree with me—shown a very special feeling for the particular requirements and sensibilities of your Lordships' House. May I therefore, in most sincerely regretting the demise as Leader of the noble Earl, Lord Longford, welcome the advent of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lord Byers I should like to associate myself with what has been said about the noble Earl, Lord Longford. When I first began to take an interest in your

5
Lordships' House in 1945, the noble Earl was, I think, on the Government Front Bench, and since then he has been on the Front Bench, on one side or the other, all the time that I have been a Member of your Lordships' House. In fact, I shall not quite know what to do now that I see him not in his accustomed place but sitting on the Back Benches. All noble Lords will respect the reasons he has given for his resignation, which I am sure we all regret; but I am very pleased to have the opportunity of saying this now, while he is still here, because so frequently we cannot pay tributes to our friends in this House until they have died. I am extremely pleased that we are able to say these things about the noble Earl while he is still very much alive—as I am sure he will continue to be for a long time to come. He has been an excellent Leader, and very friendly to all of us.
Having said that, I should like also to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, as his successor. We have all got to know him very well, and he could not be kinder or more sympathetic, both to new Members and to old Members of the House. Speaking for noble Lords on these Benches, I can assure him that we shall do the best we can to make the running of this House as easy and as smooth as possible.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, perhaps I may just add that from the day that I became a very ignorant Back-Bencher, and subsequently in the Office which I now hold, I have had nothing but help and support from the noble Earl. He has led the House with a mixture of wisdom, tact and good humour, and with a considerable degree of panache. He remains in the House, I know I can say, a friend of us all.
2.48 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I am afraid the noble Earl must be feeling as though he were reading a number of obituaries from papers of various hues. I am sorry that he has to endure just a word or two from these Benches, but he has always been so extraordinarily kind and generous to those of us who sit here that I think it would be ungracious if we remained entirely silent.
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I have recently been reading a book about the life of Bishop Bell in which a tribute was paid by Lord Longford to the late Bishop. That gave the noble Earl an opportunity to appreciate qualities so near to his own heart, including care for those who are oppressed or in need of help and succour. We shall think of the former Leader of the House not only as a man of great learning and ability, of intelligence and of courtesy, able to deliver a word of exhortation and to speak the truth with love, but also as a great friend of all those in need. For that reason, I am sure that all my fellow Bishops would particularly wish to be associated with this tribute, and also to express a very warm welcome to our new Leader, to whom we shall look with complete confidence for understanding and help in every way.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I am very glad to have the opportunity (if the House still recognises me after so long an absence) of joining in the tribute to my very old friend—and I am perhaps his oldest friend in this House—the noble Earl, Lord Longford. We have all come to know him very well, and we have all deeply respected his sincerity. We have all appreciated the way in which, as Leader of the House, he has always treated all of us, irrespective of Party, with equal courtesy and, I think I may say, sympathy; and we always understood him. Although many of us must have disagreed on almost every occasion with nearly everything he said, we have appreciated deeply the sincerity which lay behind it.
I have said that my friendship goes back a long time, perhaps longer than that of anybody here; because, oddly enough, my noble friend—I was going to say "Frank Pakenham"—started life as leader or head, I believe, of the Conservative Research Department. He was a frightfully good head of that Department but it was in that environment that he contracted the virus of a foot and mouth disease which possibly may have accounted for something that happened afterwards.
But to our very old friend we extend our sincere understanding, our deep sympathy and—here may I say I thank I speak for all of us—our most sincere affection. If we have to lose him—and

7
to my noble friend I say, "We don't want to lose you; we don't think you ought to go"—and if we have to have a successor, I am quite sure there could not be a better successor (and I do not say this in any formal way) than the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. He has all the qualities which are needed as a Leader of this House—and they are not few. It is not an easy job. But the noble Lord knows the House; he has always shown the House courtesy and frankness and—this goes without saying—integrity. I think I may say that he loves this House as well as respects it, and I am perfectly certain that the future of the House will be quite safe in his hands.
LORD STRANG: My Lords, I should like to endorse, if I may, without repeating them, the many tributes which have been justly paid to the noble Earl, Lord Longford. There will be sadness at his departure and warm sympathy for the decision he has had to take. There is one further point that I should like to make. Although I cannot speak in a formal way for those who sit on these Cross-Benches, I am sure that all my colleagues here would like me to say that they have very much valued the sympathetic regard for their interests which the noble Earl always showed during his period of office as Leader of this House. For those of us who sit on these Benches our independence is something we cherish and which we believe makes a notable contribution to the status and functioning of this House. It has therefore been most welcome to us that the noble Earl has been at pains to see that our interests have not been overlooked in the developing life of this House. In a personal way, too, I have enjoyed many acts of kind consideration from the noble Earl which I shall always gratefully remember. As has already been said, he has been and is the friend of us all.
My Lords, a Leader who retires must have a successor; so it is fitting to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, to his new office. We already know him well; we admire the vigour and application which he has devoted to everything he has touched; we admire the broad humanity of his approach, his grasp, his tolerance, his wisdom and his humour. We wish him well; and we wish him well
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particularly at this moment when the reform of your Lordships' House is in immediate prospect.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, there is one thing that I think has been left out. I was present at what I always call the "obituary" of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, when the Members got up from all sides and tried to say everything about him, and they left out the most notable thing about the noble Marquess when he led this House. That was that in the long history of this House he is, I think, the only noble Lord who has led the House in the presence of his father who had also led the House. That was, I think, the unique thing about the leadership of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury.
There is also something that has been left out in noble Lords' tributes to the noble Earl, Lord Longford. He will know, as well as I do, that he and I have been at odds on very many occasions, and he will probably recollect that there have been occasions when he has suggested to me that I have spoken to him with too much warmth; and we have continued our argument outside the House. But however warm those arguments, I have never been able to detect that any dart I threw was barbed; it never seemed to have left a sting. He always met me on the next occasion with all the charm and courtesy that he inherits from both sides of his family. For that I am personally very grateful and I should like to express that gratitude to your Lordships, as I have done now.
2.57 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am deeply touched, more touched than I can say, by the very kind words that have been said, in the first place by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, the Leader of the House, and then by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, and other speakers. I am delighted to think that everyone here knows that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, will make a first-class Leader; that there is no doubt about that in anybody's mind. And least of all is there doubt in mine. He has proved himself a valiant servant of this country in peace and in war—and last year in Aden in conditions which I suppose were halfway between. No-one has worked harder for the reform of the

9
House. He is a highly sensitive friend. When he first came here it was pointed out to me by the late Lord Attlee that he was an exceptional Parliamentarian; and there is no doubt, I repeat, about the great success he will have as Leader of this House. I must not refer to other speakers because I would detain the House too long; but I could perhaps lust mention the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, who I know has been far from well but who seemed to me at least as vigorous as I feel. I was overjoyed to hear what he had to say this afternoon. As a matter of fact, I was never head of the Conservative Research Department; I was the "bottle-washer" for the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor. But otherwise the noble Earl's recollection is accurate. I am very pleased that he said what he did say.
I need only draw some consolation from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. Speaking as a doctor, he seemed to doubt at first whether I would, in fact, be here for very long; he seemed to imply that he was lucky to get in a word before I was carried off. But when he took a second look, I thought he was a little more optimistic. At any rate I should like to thank everybody here. I have said something already in public about my own Party; but I should like to thank everybody, irrespective of Party, whether they be Independent or belong to any particular group, whether they sit on the Bishops' Benches or wherever they may sit. I will end simply by using two sentences which fell many years ago from an infinitely greater man than myself on a much sadder occasion. He said:
"I have served you, mistakenly perhaps, but to the best of my ability. My prayers are yours to the uttermost and to the last."
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I feel the noble Earl will realise how sincere were the remarks that have been made to him. I should only like to express my thanks. The difference between the noble Earl and myself is that he has earned the encomiums; I have yet to prove them. In many respects I cannot hope to equal the noble Earl. I shall never be able to say on any abstruse subject, "My Lords, as a matter of fact I have written a small book about that." But one thing I can say: I cer-
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tainly hope that I equal the noble Earl in my affection for your Lordships' House.

E.E.C. AND TRADE AGREEMENTS
3.0 p.m.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will explain in what respects the trade agreements, which the Foreign Secretary proposed on December 20 last should be negotiated with individual member Governments of the E.E.C., are preferable to the comprehensive agreement which the Prime Minister declined when the French President offered to propose it to the Council of Ministers of the E.E.C.; whether such individual agreements would not be subject under GATT to the most favoured nation rule; and how such agreements would affect our obligations in EFTA.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, I fear that the noble Lord must be under some misapprehension. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made no such proposal. In the Statement he made in another place on December 20 he said, referring to the content of consultations with the Five: "We for our part want to see the links between us forged as strongly as possible". We have never suggested that these links should take the form of trade agreements.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, is it not true that for many years the Party which the noble Lord supports stated that it was willing to co-operate commercially in a wider European market, which was what, in their opinion, the Treaty of Rome was about, but that it was not willing to involve Britain in curtailing its political freedom? Why, when they are now offered what they originally asked for, should Ministers feel so aggrieved? Would not a trade agreement removing frontier formalities and tariffs not only benefit Great Britain but resolve the difficulties of Denmark, Austria and Switzerland in particular?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, there is much more to the Treaty of Rome, of course, than a simple trade agreement, as I am sure the noble Lord will be aware. So far as his comments about other countries in Europe are concerned, I cannot speak for them or for their Governments. Speaking for Her Majesty's Government I can only say that the only form of association or trade agreement that has been offered to us so far, even in the vaguest terms, is quite unacceptable to us, in that it would involve us in an open-ended commitment of a kind to which I am quite sure we should not commit the people of this country. We have said over and over again that our interest is in full membership of the Communities under the provisions of the Treaty of Rome and that nothing else will do. Trade agreements of a sort might have been relevant in the past but they are, to our mind, no longer relevant on their own, and for that reason—although, as I say, I cannot speak for other Governments—our position remains that we want full membership of the European Communities, and our application for that full membership remains now in front of the Council of Ministers.

E.E.C. UNITY AND BRITAIN'S APPLICATION
3.3 p.m.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will abandon their outmoded concept of a balance of power in Europe, shown by their soliciting support from one member against another, which is incompatible with the idea upon which the E.E.C. was established.]
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am sorry to say again that the noble Lord's Question is based on a misunderstanding of Her Majesty's Government's policy. We are not acting as he suggests. Our aim is not to create new divisions in Europe but to make progress towards a united, integrated Europe.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, did not the noble Lord himself hear the
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German Foreign Minister, when pressed to say that he would support Britain's application in the E.E.C. Council of Ministers, publicly reply that if this meant risking the breaking up of the Community the answer was, "No"? Does not the noble Lord consider that it is rather undignified to continue to press and to put pressure on the German Government?
LORD CHALFONT: No, my Lords. If any German statesman said he would not support the British application if it meant breaking up the Common Market I could only agree with him wholeheartedly. We have no interest in breaking up the Common Market. We have an interest in joining the Common Market and helping to extend it into a rich and powerful Europe. Certainly there seems to me to be no indignity in continuing with a policy and an operation of that kind. As I say, we shall go on with this. We feel that we may have suffered a tactical setback on the way, but the strategic aim remains the same.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are many who think that the present attitude a the Government is to isolate France by making separate agreements with the other Five and that this is a dangerous policy, because we may find that if we cannot find an economic outlet, we may lose the friends that we have? Now that we have been thrown out of the Common Market cannot our Ministers stop going to the capitals of Europe with a begging bowl trying to get into the Common Market?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am, of course, aware of my noble friend's reservations about our European policy, but I must say that to suggest that we are "ganging up" against France is to stand the truth on its head. We are not the people who outraged the principle and the letter of the Treaty of Rome by refusing to negotiate on our entry: this was done by the Government of France. What we have now said is that we are prepared to consult on a wide range of things, which do not conflict with their responsibilities under the Treaty of Rome, with any of our friends in Europe who are ready to consult with

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us. We are not operating against France, we are operating for Europe.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, the French Embassy has sent me a copy of de Gaulle's speech on November 27 after devaluation in which he says that there is no hope for us for years to come. Will my noble friend say whether we are still going to beg to get into the Common Market and not be dignified and try to seek our living elsewhere?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, there is no question of begging or carrying the begging bowl round Europe in this respect. It appears quite clear now, from the Press conference that the President of the French Republic held quite recently, that the possibility of opening negotiations for our entry into the Common Market is not one we can look forward to in the near future. However, we remain clear that our eventual aim is to begin those negotiations and carry them through to a successful end. I say again that the obstacles to our entry are not in this country but on the Continent, and we believe that they will, in the long run, be removed.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, in the meantime will the Minister explore the possibilities of a trade agreement which would be of benefit to this country and to some of our partners in EFTA?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I can only repeat that in our view the future of our European policy lies not solely in trading agreements. Of course these are part of the Common Market concept—free trade, customs union and political integration. In our view the future of this country lies in a much fuller integration in Europe than would be represented simply by trade agreements. Full membership of the Common Market is our aim and we are not disposed to look at anything less.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, if we cannot get into the Common Market—and we know that we cannot—can my noble friend say whether we are to mark time for four or five years and not
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seek trade elsewhere, hoping beyond hope that some day we may arrive at the millennium?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, as my noble friend will know, there is possibly no one in your Lordships' House who is more aware than I am of the danger of answering hypothetical questions. This is a hypothetical question. My noble friend says we are not to get into the Common Market for—I think it was—four years. There is nothing to show when we are going to get into the Common Market. We shall keep our application in and we shall press it as soon as the opportunity arises.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, may I suggest to the new Leader of the House that he should take steps to prevent the Starred Question system from being used for the purpose of carrying on debates?

EXPORT GUARANTEES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate the Export Guarantees Acts 1949 to 1967, as amended by the National Loans Act 1968. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move that leave be given to take the adjourned Committee (on Re-commitment) on the Consumer Protection Bill this day instead of to-morrow.
Moved, That leave be given to take the adjourned Committee (on Recommitment) on the Consumer Protection Bill this day instead of to-morrow.—(Lord Beswick.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSUMER PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
3.10 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee (on Recommitment) on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committtee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 11:
False or misleading indications as to price of goods
11.—(1) If any person offering to supply goods of any description gives, by whatever means, any false indication to the effect that the price at which the goods are offered is equal to or less than—

(a) a recommended price; or

(b) the price at which the goods or goods of the same description were previously offered by him or are being offered by others;

or is less than such a price by a specified amount, he shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence.
(2) If any person offering to supply any goods gives, by whatever means, any indication likely to be taken as an indication that the goods are being offered at a price less than that at which they are in fact being offered he shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence.
(3) For the purposes of this section—

(a) an indication that goods were previously offered at a higher price or at a particular price shall be taken, unless the contrary is expressed, as an indication that they were so offered for a substantial period within the preceding six months;

(b) anything likely to be taken as an indication as to a recommended price or as to the price at which goods are being or were previously offered shall be treated as such an indication; and

(c) a person advertising goods as available for supply shall be taken as offering to supply them.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Before we begin, may I ask a question? I should like to ask the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees whether it is the Government's intention to make a statement about this clause. It is a most important clause, and if we are to have only the Government replies to the vari-
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ous Amendments, we who are concerned about the clause will not know the actual thinking of the Minister on it.
LORD BROWN: I propose to make such a statement on the next Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYNmoved in subsection (1)(b) to leave out "or are being offered by others". The noble Lord said: When your Lordships last discussed this clause on December 4, the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, said that the Government would try to recast it in the light of the discussion which then took place. I would not in any way underrate the difficulty, and if I am disappointed I am certainly not surprised that the recasting has not yet been forwarded. Since then, the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has been good enough to invite me to discuss the clause with him and we have all had five weeks to reflect on it. Perhaps in considering this clause it would be well to refer first of all to what the Molony Committee recommended as to price, not because that Committee had in any way a monopoly of wisdom but because it was composed of learned and experienced people who had two years to reflect on the matter and reach their recommendations.
The Committee recommended that trade descriptions should be
"…re-defined to mean any description, statement or other indication, direct or indirect, …"
as to twelve attributes or accidents of goods (if I may use the word accidents in its logical, classical sense). One of the accidents was
"as to the former or usual price of any goods".
This is dealt with in paragraph 636 (viii), on page 210, which says:
"This would not restrain claims that the goods were 'worth' more than the stated price; merely false comparative price claims meant to convey that goods have been genuinely marked down in the particular retail establishment. We foresee difficulty in the phrasing of the prohibition and in its enforcement. The practice is sufficiently widespread and deceptive to call for repression".
In other words, the Report recommended that only false comparisons between the price at which goods are offered and the price at which goods of the same description were previously offered by the same person should be made illegal. For the sake of brevity,

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perhaps I could borrow the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Brown, and describe that as the internal price.
As to pricing methods, on page 266 (paragraph 813), the Molony Report says this:
"Our reaction to the complaints about deceptive methods of indicating the price of goods on display is that consumers must be expected to go shopping with their eyes open and their wits reasonably alert. If it should happen to their cost that they fail to notice that the price on the barrow is quoted per ½ lb. and not per lb., or that they have to pay £5 5s. 0d. instead of £5 0s. 0d. for a coat, they will have had a valuable lesson which might later help them more than anything we could recommend."
They go on to say:
"(The first example, we observe, may amount to the offence of applying a false trade description as to the quantity)."
When we last debated this clause I referred to the difficulty that would arise in establishing the facts in a court of law when comparisons are made by a person offering goods between his price and the price at which goods of the same description are being offered by others. That is what the noble Lord would like to call external price. What exactly is meant in line 33 of page 6 of the Bill by "by others"? It would seem that if a person could show that goods of the same description were being offered by one or more persons at the competitive price in question, he would not be caught by this clause, even though that price was well above the average price level. Is it really worth making such a narrow provision as that?
In the case of comparison between the price at which goods are being offered and were previously being offered by the same person, there is no great difficulty in establishing the facts. The person's books may show it or it may be possible to get evidence from customers or competitors. But when the comparison is between the price at which the same goods are offered elsewhere, it is very difficult, especially in these days of price competition when in some cases prices vary from day to day in the same shop or in different shops, to make a meaningful comparison with what prices were at the same time elsewhere. It is very difficult to pinpoint that.
Consumers are constantly being advised to "shop around" and compare
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prices for themselves. At the beginning of the day suppliers may make in all good faith comparisons which are falsified without their knowledge later in the day by counteraction on the part of competitors. Then, when a comparison is made with prices elsewhere, it is not always with goods of the same description, but often with good that are similar or of comparable quality. Such a comparison is not caught by the clause as drafted, though, as the Molony Committee implied, it may well be caught by Clauses 1 to 5 of the Bill as a false trade description being impliedly applied in saying that the goods are comparable or similar. There are some who think that the best course would be to prohibit all such comparisons and provide that the only permissible comparison should be between the internal price—the price at which the same person is selling and was previously selling the same goods or goods of the same description—but this would surely be going much too far. Why should honest traders be prevented from drawing attention to real bargains because some traders are guilty of abuse? If we were to ban all such comparisons we should be taking away this facility, which is much to the advantage of the consumer as well as to the trader.
In all the circumstances I have come to the conclusion that it is better to follow the Molony Report and restrict the provisions in this clause to what I believe is enforceable. Therefore I am moving to leave out the words "or are being offered by others". With this Amendment goes the next, No. 20B. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 32, leave out from ("him") to end of line 33.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Before my noble friend replies, I should like to comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said and to raise a matter related to this, in the hope that my noble friend Lord Brown may tell us the opinion of the Board of Trade on it. In our discussions before Christmas I think we all realised the great difficulty of Clause 11. Obviously, the Board of Trade recognised this as well, and they said that they would re-write or re-draft the clause, or have another look at it, before it came before us again. I take

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the view that Clause 11 is probably about the most important clause in the Bill. While I realise that such statements might be made on the Question, That the clause stand part of the Bill, I want to ask my noble friend what he feels, in particular, about the matter of a recommended price.
With regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said on the matter, I hope that the Government will not accept the Amendment that he has moved. I think any weakening in the protection of the consumer on the matter of comparative prices is to be deprecated; and I do not take the view, in spite of the difficulty, that this is something which could not be coped with. What I really want to ask my noble friend about (and he may already have it in his remarks) is the question of a recommended price—which links on to what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has been saying—and also sub-paragraph (viii) on page 210 of the Molony Report. I have not put down an Amendment, because I was waiting to see what the Government would do, and was hoping that their amended Clause 11 might be on the Marshalled List for us to-day.
On the matter of a recommended price and the protection of consumers in so far as comparative pricing is concerned, I wonder whether in his reply my noble friend could include some comments about recommended price. I am quite sure that I am not saying anything which the noble Lord or the Committee do not know when I say that with the eroding or abolition of resale price maintenance we have now reached the stage where recommended prices are used by dishonest traders to mislead shoppers. Furthermore, I do not believe that, however much a shopper shops around, or however intelligent he or she may be, it is apparent from looking at these recommended prices whether they are fictitious or correct. I do not believe that any comparison linked to a recommended price has any value to-day. I would ask my noble friend to look at subsection (a) to see whether or not the Board of Trade could delete it.
I have here a rather garish advertisement, which I will pass down to my noble friend; and I do not propose to name the firm at this stage. The advertisement
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speaks of a double-bed size quilt, and it says: "Retail price 7 guineas." When this was sent to me, by someone whose opinion I value, who told me the retail value was 50s. I said: "That is all very well. This says 'Retail price 7 guineas'. But is this a recommended price or a stated price?" He said: "This is a recommended price. The supplier" (this brings me back to page 210 of Molony)" sends this out with the quilts as a recommended price. One goes with each quilt." I said: "What is this really worth?", and he said: "The retail value of these goods is 50s." I said: "That is all very well, but before I raise this in the House I want a little more information, because I do not mind people disagreeing with me, but I would hate to be found in error."
What I have now is a statement of a special two-day sale which was to be held in Scarborough on August 2 and 3, last. Included in this sale is this same quilt, and we get in this package deal:
"Our special bargain bedding sale, comprising one floral quilt, satin-finished, double-size. Seven guineas."
As I say, it is the same quilt. It then says:
"One pair of blankets, all colours, double size, £5 10s. One pair of flannelette sheets, double size, £4 10s. Two large foam filled pillows, Foamaprene, £2 12s.".
That is a total of £19 19s. 0d., which I take to be the recommended price. But such is the generosity of the person conducting this two-day sale that, instead of paying 19 guineas for these articles, you can buy the lot for £5. Obviously, he will soon be out of business if he is as generous as that.
I would bring to the attention of my noble friend that if this sort of thing is to go out to the public, whether it is on goods that go from suppliers to shops or on two-day sales, and we see "value 19 guineas" or "value 7 guineas", which bear no relationship to the real value, or even to what it is being sold at, then I think it is a great mistake for any Bill to tie any comparison to such a recommended price.
The other example that I should like to give is this. I do not know whether my noble friend saw in the Sunday Times on Sunday an advertisement for an amazing new bargain; that is to say, a genuine English executive framed briefcase, made to sell at 4½ guineas. It said

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in very small type elsewhere, "Only 39/11d.". I do not know whether 4½ guineas is the recommended price, and this person is absolutely giving it away for 39s. 11d.; and I do not know whether a person looking at this takes that to be the recommended price. But how is anybody to tie any legislation or any comparison to that? The advertisement does not mention that the case is plastic or anything like that—and, indeed, there may be prosecutions pending on both these examples.
I am serious about this, and I raise this matter now because I am hoping that, even if my noble friend cannot agree to-day, he will look at this matter of the deletion of "a recommended price" from this Bill at a later stage. I should have great pleasure in putting down an Amendment to that effect, because I believe that such practices bring the Bill into disrepute.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: Before the noble Lord replies, may I say on behalf of the Consumer Council how sorry I am that we have not had the redraft of Clause 11 which was promised to us before Christmas. In the discussions which took place on this clause the noble Lord said that he was planning a redraft and that we might have it the next time the matter came before us. I support the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, on this matter, and do not support the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has moved, for this reason: that it restricts the clause to price comparisons made by individual retailers only. I think this is limiting. There will be no control of comparisons of prices between shops. This, I think, is important.
The noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, has given us some remarkable examples which she has searched out. I am afraid I have no examples to give to the Committee, but this type of double pricing is well known to the public, and, of course, the public complain about it all the time. I therefore think it is important that we should not restrict the effect of this Bill, but that it should apply to comparisons of prices between shops. We want to try to cut down the double pricing, and we want the public to have as square a deal as they can in these matters. I think it would be a great pity if we were to pass this Amendment, or
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if the Board of Trade were to agree in their redraft to a limitation of this; kind.
I know the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said that it is difficult to make comparisons externally, but it can be done. Difficult things are often the right things to do. I think it would be a great pity—and I know my Council feel the same way—if we were to restrict this in the way which is suggested by the Amendment. I hope that the Board of Trade in their redraft, which we have not yet got, but which I hope we soon shall have, will put these matters straight.
3.30 p.m.
LORD BROWN: As I said a few minutes ago, I propose to take the opportunity on the noble Lord's Amendment to impart to your Lordships all our reconsideration on Clause 11. I must apologise for the fact that the redraft of the clause is not in front of your Lordships to-day, but the fact of the matter is that, although many wish the ends in sight, few have been able to propose legally enforceable means to get there. In fact, since the House last discussed the Bill we have had very extensive consultations with a number of interested bodies, for whose advice we are most grateful. They were a great help in defining the area which we could usefully explore. Many drafts and ideas have been under discussion, but I am afraid that we have not come to the end of the road. However, I hope to end my statement on this clause with some suggestions which I hope will appeal to your Lordships.
There was general agreement that, in principle, it was right that the Bill should deal with the three kinds of claim set out in Clause 11(1); that is to say, claims that a price is less than the retailer's previous price; that it is less than a recommended price; and that it is less than the price currently being charged by other traders. The differences of opinion were concerned with how far we should go in dealing with these practices, and with some others as well. Moreover, there was general agreement that as the clause stood it could be expected to be reasonably enforceable so far as comparisons with a trader's own previous price or with a recommended price were concerned.
Perhaps I ought here to see whether I can make some attempt to answer the

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point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. I do not think that what I shall say in this statement will fully satisfy her on this question of recommended prices. What we have to remember is, first, that there are two types of misdemeanour to be looked at quite separately in reference to recommended price. The first is false comparisons with proper recommended prices; the second is comparisons with "phoney" recommended prices. The second point I would make with regard to recommended prices is this. Although there are undoubtedly a great many "phoney" recommended prices, there are also a large number of perfectly proper established or recommended prices, and if we were to abolish the whole lot because some are bad we should put some traders, who genuinely wanted to offer the public cheaper prices, in a position of not being able to make it clear that they were doing so. I have only to quote motor cars to make the point. So this is a pretty difficult area to deal with. Nevertheless, I do not think it is entirely fruitless for us to pursue it further, and present something else at a later stage, because the practice of stating "phoney" recommended prices, if done in some forms, may be made a misdemeanour, something able to be challenged, if we get the clause framed properly.
The real problem is, clearly, how to deal with claims that a person's price is less than that being charged by other people. Such a provision is all very well in principle, but when the local weights and measures inspectors came to enforce it the question would inevitably arise: which other people? This kind of comparison is made, as a general rule, without giving any clear and precise indication of the other people whose prices are implied. We could no doubt say that, in those circumstances, the comparison should be deemed to be with the prices charged by a reasonable number of the competitors from whom customers might otherwise be expected to buy. All very sound in principle—but what on earth would it mean in practice to the courts? What would the prosecution have to set out to prove? What is a "reasonable number" of competitors for the grocer in a small village or the grocer
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in Lambeth? And who are the competitors, if our grocer merely displays the claim in his shop, advertises it in his local paper circulating over a five mile radius, or advertises it in a national newspaper?
The answer is, of course, that there is no single answer to what the comparison should be taken to be. There are hundreds of different answers, depending on the nature of the goods, the terms in which the comparison is made, the place where it is made, and the way in which it is publicised. We cannot specify them, and if they are not laid down the enforcing authority will have no idea what evidence it needs to collect to prove a case, or what evidence will suffice to refute the charge; and the courts will not know what evidence they are supposed to require to justify convicting. In short, in all but a small minority of cases the provision would be unenforceable.
It could be argued—and indeed has been—that it would be useful to have a provision which would at least catch those cases; and that such a provision would be a deterrent. But we believe that to leave it as it is would hinder the success of voluntary action in this field. A person who was not prosecuted could argue that he complied with the law and could not be expected to do more than the law demanded. And, of course, there is a much more serious objection in principle. I am sure that your Lordships would join me in thinking it objectionable to declare an act criminal in the cynical knowledge that the ban will rarely be enforced.
There is a third objection, and it is this. If in fact we made the law not apply to a comparison with external prices, then it would probably very seriously weaken the enforceability of the law with regard to what I have termed internal prices, because it would be too easy for someone who was to be prosecuted to shift his ground and claim, when he was challenged about the validity of his internal price comparison, that it was in fact really a comparison with an external price.
The question, therefore, was what else could be done to deal with this kind of comparison? One approach would be to ban altogether the making of certain kinds of comparisons, whether true or

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false. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said, no one has been willing to contemplate a total ban of this sort. Indeed, I am sure that there is no possible justification for a general prohibition on all indication that a distributor is selling at cheaper prices than are usual. And although a ban limited to claims that a person's prices are less than other people's by a specified amount was seen to have more justification—since such precise claims may in many cases be incapable of precise substantiation—there was little support for such a Draconic approach. We have considered this possibility, but we have concluded that it would not be right in principle to forbid traders from advertising that their goods were cheaper than their competitors'.
The possibility of preserving the present provision subject to modifications and refinements that would make it more enforceable has been exhaustively discussed. But the upshot is that no acceptable, practical way of making this provision enforceable has been found. It is regrettable, but I think it must be accepted that the Bill cannot be made to work in this way, and consequently that we cannot leave the Bill as it stands so far as comparisons with other people's prices are concerned. We are therefore led to the conclusion that it would be best to accept the noble Lord's Amendment, which would exclude such comparisons from the scope of Clause 11, and to look for an answer of some kind, even if a less satisfactory one, in some other direction.
Before I refer to other possible approaches, I must mention another sort of claim which it was suggested we should try to deal with; namely, claims that the value or worth of goods is greater than the selling price. We agree that such claims can often be misleading, but we do not think that it would be practicable to legislate against them. The difficulty is that these claims take a wide variety of forms, and there is no way of dealing with them that is not either unenforceable or else unjust. If we merely forbid false claims as to the worth or value of goods, we shall be giving the courts the task of deciding what some article is actually worth or what its value is, and that task will, far more often than not, prove impossible. If we go further and define what the worth or
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value of goods must be taken to mean—for instance, that the goods must actually have been sold at the stated price—then not only are we faced with enormous enforcement problems, but we define out of existence some perfectly legitimate sorts of claim, such as the claim that a cut-price brand of goods is worth what one would pay for a different and more expensive brand. In short, the "value" or "worth" claim is, if anything, more difficult to handle than comparisons with other people's prices.
This is a most uphappy situation. But, given that we can see no statutory cure for the mischief of false comparisons with others' prices that would not be likely to prove worse than the disease, we are obliged to face it. In that situation we should, I suggest, consider how far it may be possible to see that consumers are informed about what the Bill will and will not do in the field of comparative pricing, so that they may know, on the one hand, that they can in genera I rely on the truth of claimed reductions from the seller's previous price or from a recommended price—because these are covered and will be adequately policed under the Bill; and, on the other hand, that they should be sensibly sceptical of all other classes of comparative claims, whether related to other traders' prices or merely value or worth, because these will not be subject to any statutory control and may have been beyond the power of control of the voluntary codes. It would, I think, be important to ensure that consumers should be able to distinguish clearly between the different classes of claims by avoiding the use of ambiguous expressions, and that they should e s far as possible be acquainted with the different status of the different classes of claim.
There may be various ways of seeking to achieve this objective, and if I offer a few tentative first thoughts at this time I trust that your Lordships will not take them as being finally considered proposals. One approach might be to ensure that what I may call the "respectable" types of claims—comparisons with a recommended price (subject to the comment I have already made) or with the seller's previous price—are always presented in a form which would be readily recognised. For example, one might think of attaching a distinctive symbol to such claims, perhaps a standard abbreviation such as

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"r.p." indicating "recommended price," and "p.p." indicating "previous price." This would give a situation where, if a trader decided that he was going to reduce the price of goods that he had previously sold at £1 to 15s., and he was doing something absolutely genuine, he would be prepared to put against the £1 the symbol "p.p." Of course, if he was not doing something genuine he would render himself—if we get the Bill right—liable to prosecution, which would mean that he would not be likely to do it. If, in indicating the £1, he was making a comparison with somebody else's price, the symbol "p.p." would not appear and every purchaser would know that this might well be a "phoney" comparison.
In the same way we would use the symbol "r.p.", although that does not seem to be quite as satisfactory. On the other hand, provision might be made to require other kinds of claims to be presented in forms which would be readily recognisable as not belonging to the respectable classes, so that we inform the shopper. If the symbols became recognised as indications of genuineness in the price comparisons made, then we might be able to forget the others, which I hope shoppers would learn to regard with a proper degree of suspicion.
In pursuing this general objective, it might be helpful to arm ourselves with power to make regulations to define, prescribe or prohibit the use of certain forms of price indications, and the question would arise how best all this could be brought home to shoppers. The subject is a very complicated one and any possible remedies will clearly need much further thought. I am sure your Lordships will not expect me to be able to put forward detailed conclusions at this stage, because the thinking which I have just put to your Lordships has arisen only during the last eight days, and I hope the Committee will agree that the right course is to take more time to consider how the broad objective of minimising deception of the consumer in this field might best be achieved. In the meantime one thing is clear. Whatever else we may find it worth while to add to this clause at a later stage, we shall not want to retain its present provisions about comparisons with other traders' prices. I am therefore clear that this
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Amendment should be accepted, and in recommending its acceptance to your Lordships I would add the thought that in my view it would be unsatisfactory simply to accept it without having the prospect of further adding to the clause, as I have indicated, at a later stage.
LORD AIREDALE: I should like to ask the Minister whether he can give the Committee his assurance that the Government's redrafting of Clause 11 will, without fail, be placed before the House before the next stage of the Bill is reached; or, to put it the other way round, that the Report stage of this Bill not be fixed until the Government have redrafted Clause 11. It is surely a valid constitutional point that a piece of Government legislation must be as complete as the Government can make it in time for the measure to be properly scrutinised by the first House of Parliament before which the Bill is presented.
LORD BROWN: I confess I am not good on the question of the Constitution of this House, but what I am asking for—and I am glad the noble Lord has given me the opportunity to ask for it explicitly—is that the Committee should be prepared to accept that the ideas which I have put before it should, if possible, be put into legal form as an addition to the Bill, for presentation in another place.
We are in difficulty here. If we proceed with the ideas which I have presented to the Committee there is no doubt in my mind that there will have to be extensive discussions with interested bodies, and those discussions will take a considerable time. If we delay the passage of this Bill until those discussions have been completed we shall take up a large amount of time. I do not know whether it is right to say this, but what I am afraid of is that this is the type of Bill which attracts the interested attention of large numbers of your Lordships and no doubt of Members of another place, too, and the Committee debates elsewhere may also be protracted. I wish to avoid a situation similar to that which arose on the Companies Bill last year, which came back here with a vast number of Amendments towards the end of July. I think there really is a danger of delaying this Bill, and I hope your Lordships will agree that the Bill should be passed without the drafting of the

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ideas I have put forward, but leaving those ideas to be dealt with in another place.
3.48 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am sorry, but I definitely do not agree. I want to support most strongly what the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has said. This Bill has come before your Lordships' House as the first House of Parliament to look at it, and its having done so I cannot see any reason why it should leave us without the main clause being redrafted for us to consider. In my view it is utterly wrong, and I hope noble Lords will protest strongly.
LORD BROWN: Will the noble Baroness allow me to interrupt her? It is really all very well for people to say that it is the duty of the Government to provide enforceable, effective legislation which will meet the ends which we desire. It is not always possible to do so, and if indeed there has been delay it is not something for which I apologise; it is something which arises out of the total difficulty of the situation with which we are faced. I make no apology and I do not accept that it is a "crying shame" or whatever words the noble Baroness used—
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Those were not my words.
LORD BROWN: —that the matter is not necessarily dealt with in this House. We must face the facts of the situation.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am sorry the noble Lord interrupted me; I still do not agree. I think it is quite wrong that we should be expected to endorse a major clause in a Bill without seeing it. I think it is quite preposterous. There is no need for the noble Lord to get hoity-toity and say that he does not apologise. I do not ask him to, but I do differ.
The other point I wish to deal with, as distinct from that, is this. I am sorry the noble Lord intimated that he is going to accept Lord Drumalbyn's Amendment, and I hope that the noble Lord will be speaking on this. I think it is a retrograde step and it weakens the clause. At the beginning, when my noble friend Lord Brown began—I will not say my hopes soared but my heart lightened a little
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when he said that we might be able to deal with "phoney" recommended prices if Clause 11 were properly framed. I thought perhaps when we saw Clause 11 we might see this had happened. Then he went on to speak about "worth" or "value", and said it was a very unhappy situation that it was not possible to do anything about it. I think it is most unhappy. I think that on some matters, the Molony Report took a most defeatist view, and I regard this also as a defeatist view, because I think something should be done on these matters.
I am wondering whether my noble friend could help me on this point He went on to speak about the possible phrases or regulations that might be in the Bill and I am wondering about the specific example I mentioned about worth or value, in which, as I said, a case was advertised as "made to sell at 4½ guineas". Do the Government feel, without in any way committing themselves, that we shall have to go on looking at advertisements which say, "Made to sell at 4½ guineas" when the article offered is worth 39s. 11d.? I should not have thought it was impossible to deal with matters like that. Can my noble friend tell me whether I have got it right?
LORD STRABOLGI: I have great sympathy with what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, have said. I think it is undesirable in principle that this House should be asked to pass a Bill which is not complete. On the other hand, I think we must welcome the statement of my noble friend Lord Brown, that the Board of Trade are consulting with the interests concerned. Time and again throughout the passage of this Bill we have had occasion, I think with some justification, to criticise Government Departments on drafting clauses of a Bill without proper consultation with the interests concerned. Here is a case where the Board of Trade are offering to consult to get the clause right, and I think that that probably justifies the fact that the House is being asked in this case to pass a Bill that is not complete. On the other hand, I hope that when the other place has had a chance to consider this clause in its final form, and pass it, this House will have a chance to have a fresh look at it and, if the House does not agree with it,

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to amend it or reject it as it thinks fit. I hope that it will not be considered as a clause cut-and-dried and passed by the other place on which this House has no authority or jurisdiction at all. I think we must have a chance to look at it and do what we like.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: When the noble Lord, Lord Brown, and his Department are considering what the noble Baroness has said, I hope that they will remember that, at any rate in my humble way, I would certainly support the suppression of any material that might otherwise go in the Bill which will not be suitable for criminal courts to deal with. There can be nothing more plain than that the question of the worth of an article or goods is something which it is very difficult to deal with at petty sessions, and moreover, I would have thought, something which would have raised the eyebrows of most chairmen and deputy chairmen of quarter sessions. If there is any question about whether or not these things can be done, I thank most of us who have to deal with the law in practice would certainly support the noble Lord's stand. We do not wish to create an offence which can neither he proved, nor, in the other instance, which he has agreed to take out, in fact be enforced. I would certainly support him on both those points.
LORD AIREDALE: May I say one word in the friendliest possible way? I sincerely believe it to be the wish of this Committee that the Government should at least have a shot at redrafting Clause 11 before the Report stage of the Bill in this House. If the clause has to be further amended in another place, very well; and noble Lords I am sure would have no complaint about that. But I believe noble Lords would have a complaint if the redraft of this important clause were not done in time for this House to scrutinise it closely, and debate it, before the Bill leaves this House for the first time.
LORD DRUMALBYN: First of all, may I thank the noble Lord for accepting the Amendment, although of course he is accepting it in the framework of a clause that he proposes to redraft. Perhaps I could be allowed to say a word on that also, because it seems to me that we could carry rather too far the idea that everything that goes out from this House
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should be perfect and not need to be amended in another place. It is well known that Bills come from another place and are amended here by the Government in line with discussions that have taken place in another place. I cannot for the life of me see why the same process should not apply in reverse.
Quite apart from that, I do not think there is any doubt, now that the noble Lord has agreed to accept this Amendment, that this clause as it is could stand. The only question is: can it be improved? It is now enforceable and workable, so that it would not be the end of the world if the Government were in the end to say, "We have discussed this and examined it with all the various bodies concerned, but we do not think we can do better than we have done with this clause." I do not think it would matter if that were done. I do not take the view, with great respect to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, that it is absolutely essential that we should see any redraft the Government may be able to devise. I do say, with great respect, that I think they are going to have very great difficulty in redrafting along the lines they envisage. I do not think we need take it at all tragically if the Government are unable to produce a redraft before this Bill leaves this House. Of course, we have to bear in mind this Bill has taken rather longer in this House than was originally expected. I do not suppose the Government will wish us to have it before this House very much longer.
On recommended prices I agree with the noble Baroness; indeed, I tried to deal with this point at an earlier stage. I think that if we are going to have recommened prices in the Bill some reference must be made to the fact that they are both genuine and current, because there is deception in both ways. Some recommended prices are not intended to be genuine and, as the noble Baroness said, are mere "gimmicks", and there are also cases where recommended prices have been superseded, when manufacturers have reduced their prices, and the old price is quoted as the recommended price. On all these points I think the Bill could be tightened up. I entirely agree with the noble Lord about the difficulty in defining what normal prices of other goods are, and that was the main reason why I moved my Amendment.

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There is one suggestion that I would make to the noble Lord. I referred in my opening remarks to what are attributes and what are accidents of the goods. If he will look at subsection (1) of Clause 2 he will find that some of the items there are attributes and others are accidents, such as where the goods were manufactured, the history of the goods and so forth. I would merely draw to his attention again the fact that the Molony Committee suggested that the price should be included in the trade description clause. I rather think that if the noble Lord were to include it in the trade description clause he would get over a great many of the difficulties, because then what is said about price, if it was misleading, would be caught by the other provisions in the Bill. I would commend that suggestion to him. It would also get over, for example, the difficulty to which the noble Baroness very rightly drew attention, the use of the phrase "made to sell at" such-and-such a price. An article may well have been "made to sell at", but the evidence is that in most cases that may not be true. Here again, as with recommended prices, one wants to be able to differentiate between the genuine and the false.
This is different from an actual comparison of price, and I hope that, because of the great complications involved in the quality, the history and so forth of the goods, the Government will not try to catch this by legal means; that it should not be a criminal offence to describe goods in that way. On the other hand, the voluntary system will undoubtedly attempt to deal with this, and has had a quite reasonable success in doing so. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that if we go too far and try to specify too rigidly and inflexibly what the law is to be, then a voluntary system cannot work at all because those who want to "chisel" on the law will say "If you think this is illegal, prosecute me; otherwise let me alone". This would mean that a voluntary system could not work at all. I agree with the noble Lord that it is better to leave to the voluntary system the kind of comparisons which this Amendment seeks to leave out.
4.2 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I shall be brief, but I should like to
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make one more plea to my noble friend on Clause 11. As I see it, this is really a matter of principle. I know that one can be quite tedious once a point of principle is reached. Granted that this Bill has been before the House for a long time, but with respect that is not the fault of the House. Had it no, been necessary for the Bill to be recommitted we should not have been nearly so long with it as we have, and I do not think it is unreasonable—here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Airedale—to ask that at the next stage of our deliberations Clause 11 shall be before us so that we can look at it. I think it is quite unreasonable to ask us to pass this Bill without looking at Clause 11, and however inadequate the Government may feel their suggestion in regard to it should be, I think we ought to have it.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I have listened to the discussion with considerable interest. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, that this clause is or e of enormous importance to the Bill, and I also agree with Lord Airedale and the noble Baroness that we should be able to discuss it on that ground. All that has happened this afternoon is that we have been discussing the clause at considerable length, and that it has been quite considerably weakened from the point of view of consumer protection by the acceptance of this Amendment. I f the Board of Trade and the Minister cannot find words to describe what they have in mind to do in Clause 11, it seers to me that it will get weaker still because they are going to try to find the lowest common denominator. This will make the clause much weaker than it was probably intended to be. I think it is a great mistake, and I am sorry about it. I wish we could have had the clause. Under the present arrangement, whereby it goes to another place, it means that there will be tremendous discussion and many of the things we have discussed here may well be altered. As the Bill started here, and as this is a key clause, I think it is regrettable that we cannot have proper wording, and that such wording as we have now has been considerably weakened.
LORD BROWN: I shall not detain your Lordships over this clause for too long, but I must reply to some of the points

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that have been made. First, I note the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, about dealing with the whole question in another way. We certainly shall think about this. But I think the fundamental difficulty of the whole matter of this clause is that you cannot get at the truth about external prices; the truth about external prices is simply not available. That is the reason for the idea which arose so recently, that we should alter our whole perspective and approach to this clause in order to tell the consumer what were the price comparisons which he can trust and leave him to come to his own judgment about other types of comparisons, which we would not attempt to treat as instances of criminal conduct. That is the fundamental difficulty.
In reply to my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, on the question of an advertisement saying, "Made to sell at 4½ guineas", we do not see the possibility of defining this as an offence, or indeed of upholding the law if we did so. But it could come within the ambit of the different approach that I suggest we should make, because once the consumer recognises that price comparisons, bearing certain symbols such as the "p.p." and "r.p." which I suggested as one manifestation of the idea, really mean something, then he may be led to understand that the other types of price comparison or value comparison were of but little value to him and that he had better watch out. We shall at least have done something to protect the consumer. But the possibility of enforcing the law in such a way to cover these types of comparisons to which the noble Baroness objects is very remote indeed. There is little hope of that.
On the last point, I am indeed sorry that a workable, full-blown clause along the lines I have indicated is not before your Lordships' House this afternoon. I shall be quite frank and say that I do not think that a possibility exists of getting it before your Lordships' House in time. I should have liked to be able to accept the vehement suggestions that we should be able to deal with this, but I believe that if we attempted to do so we should hold up this Bill intolerably and we may get the most unfortunate result of losing the Bill because of not
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being able to get it through this Session. Therefore, I want to be quite frank about this before your Lordships decide what you want to do in regard to this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I beg to move Amendment No. 23B.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 3, leave out ("are being or").(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.8 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I move this Amendment purely in order to ask the noble Lord what the words are intended to mean, and what paragraph (c) is intended to mean. If he is going to recast the whole clause, it may be that these words would not be needed anyway. I rather suspect that they would be. So I would ask the noble Lord what is the purpose of the words, and to give an explanation to the Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 5, leave out ("as available for supply").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was good enough to inform me beforehand of his reasons for putting down this Amendment. I hope he will feel that his courtesy in doing so has enabled me to do justice to his questions. The Amendment raises two questions: First, why have Clause 11(3)(c) at all? Secondly, if we must have it, why not apply it simply to a person advertising goods and not to a person advertising goods as available for supply?
I do not think there can be much argument about the first question. We must catch false price comparisons made in advertisements—for example, by a mail order firm as well as those made in a shop. The shopkeeper is clearly caught by Clause 11(1): he puts price tickets on goods which he is exposing for supply and, therefore, for the purposes of the Bill he gives an indication about goods which he is offering for supply. But at Common Law—and this is one of the most important points—a person who advertises goods does not normally offer to supply them; at most he invites offers,

37
saying, "I have these goods if you want them". This is a legal precedent. In order to cover this case, therefore, we must bring the meaning of "supply" in this Bill nearer to what I would call its common-sense meaning. To my mind, a mail order firm which advertises goods, offers to supply them; and in effect that is what Clause 11(3)(c) says.
The real difficulty arises over the second question. We are out to catch only the man who can be regarded as offering to supply goods in the commonsense meaning of the word "offering". As I have already said, this is the man who says, "If you want these goods, I have them." It is unnecessary to go further than that and catch advertisements that do not constitute present invitations either to make an offer or at least to visit a shop and see the goods. I submit that it is always dangerous in Acts of Parliament to go further than is necessary. So the retention of these words in the Bill limits the strength of this clause, and if we were to accept the Amendment we should be opening the clause to apply to more people than otherwise would be the case. I am quite sure that the noble Lord does not want that to happen. That is why I suggest that he might see fit to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My concern about the words "available for supply" is that goods may be advertised as available for supply but so many people may want them that there are not enough available to supply everybody. Taken in that sense this may put the person offering the goods as available for supply in a very difficult position. I wonder whether the noble Lord would consider the matter from that point of view. I quite see that this is not what the words are intended to convey. From what the noble Lord has said, I gather that what they are intended to do is to bring the person who is selling by mail order within the ambit of the law, in fact within subsection (1) (b). If he applies a false description he is supplying or offering to supply goods to which a false description is applied. That is the real purpose of these words, as I gather from what he said. If the words are intended to indicate that because a person offers goods as available for supply he must therefore supply them at the price, then
38
I think it is going too far; but the words could be taken in that sense.
LORD BROWN: I have had the opportunity of going into this matter very deeply indeed, and I was surprised to learn the meaning put upon these phrases by the law to-day. "Available for supply" is the opening gambit, so to speak, leading later to a specific offer, which is the first part of a contract. "Offering to supply" virtually is making a firm quotation which commits the person offering it if somebody takes it up. Therefore, contrary to what the noble Lord believes, "available for supply" is nothing like as binding as "offering to supply". If the words "available for supply" were in fact taken out, then the clause would be much more menacing than it would be if those words were left in, which is the contrary view to that which the noble Lord has taken. I feel that in moving this Amendment he is defeating the ends which he is trying to achieve.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.15 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 11, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD HAWKE: I am glad to see that a wind of common sense is blowing through the Board of Trade, and I was heartened by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Brown, who has at last seen that this clause presents enormous difficulties. So far as I am concerned, he can take all the time in the world over this matter and I hope that he will not succeed in producing a revised clause. The whole Bill is an example of grandmotherly legislation which has proliferated from both political Parties in the past and has led to our ever-growing burden of a gigantic Civil Service. Clause 11 is one of the most difficult clauses in the Bill to police. It will either be completely ignored or else the people responsible for policing it—I suppose the weights and measures authorities—will want many more staff if they are to carry out the task. Even then, as the noble Lord himself has pointed out, the business of trying to compare prices and

39
values offered by different people at different times is so difficult—in fact it might prove to be impossible—that it will be extremely expensive to the taxpayer to carry out. I do not think it is worth while.
I have already spoken about one or two drawbacks of this clause, but I will briefly recapitulate some of them. This clause is designed as a handicap to the type of sales which tend to take place nowadays; it virtually might put a stop to them as they are at present conducted. People get a great "kick" out of the sales in trying to spot the bargains from the non-bargains, and I feel that they will be morally much worse off if they do not get an opportunity to go to such sales. Some of the protagonists of the Bill might have had their spiritual home in Port Sudan before the war. One then went to the bazaars during a few hours ashore and perhaps bargained for the leather work and silver work, and one found in every shop a list of prices, signed by the District Commissioner, which the shopkeepers were not allowed to exceed or minimise. That is the sort of place which some people would like to turn England into.
Then there is the question of the mills to be considered. Sales provide a valuable outlet to the mills which want work in the slack times. If there are no sales, there will be none of this particular type of work filling in orders. Moreover, it appears to me that Clause 11, as at present drafted, is extremely simple to evade. The traveller goes to the store and says, "I have a good line in pullovers for your next sale. I can do them at a pound; you will be able to sell them at 27s. 6d." The storekeeper says, "All right, I will take 100 dozen. Send me along five dozen this week and the other 95 dozen can come in three months' time." The five dozen go to the shop and they are marked at £2. They may sell or they may not. They probably will not sell because they very dear at the price. In due course the rest arrive for the July sales, the £2 is crossed out, and "27s. 6d." is written in. Everybody is satisfied. The mill gets its orders, and the shop gets its sale goods and its normal margin of profit. The customer gets an article worth 27s. 6d. and is very pleased because he thinks it is worth
40
£2. In that way everybody is satisfied and no offence has been committed.
I do not know how one is going to stop that sort of thing in any clause one drafts. I personally do not believe in passing legislation which cannot be enforced without minute inspection and which can be easily evaded. The Bill will be less bad if Clause 11 is removed. After all, we shall still have Clause 1, and if the advice of my noble friend, Lord Drumalbyn, is accepted and the provision regarding price is put in there, that might cover what is intended in Clause 11. There is also the Misrepresentation Act, which I feel renders the necessity for the Bill completely nugatory. I am not going to divide the Committee against the clause, but should like my remarks to be on the record in order that the wind of common sense may take some note of them when we are having our next discussion on this matter.
LORD BROWN: I do not want to detain the House longer, because the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, will agree that we have had extensive discussions on this subject. But I must, also for the record, point out that it is all very well for the noble Lord to talk of shopping as a rather exciting, pleasant, simple sort of sport. It can be, I admit, but it is not that sort of sport to the low wage-earner's wife doing her daily shopping on a low budget, with the full force of modern marketing techniques available to some unscrupulous firms who are intent on deceiving her into spending her scarce resources very unwisely indeed. This is the justification—
LORD HAWKE: May I just say that, after all, the noble Lord has postponed the raising of the school-leaving age to 16 by which people might have gained more common sense.
LORD BROWN: I shall ignore that irrelevancy and complete what I was saying. They want to deceive her into wasting her scarce resources, and I do not think it is fitting that this should be overlooked by the noble Lord in drawing attention to the recognised difficulties of the clause. We must attempt to do something. I should very much dislike it if this clause were not accepted by the House.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): Perhaps I should remind the Committee that Clauses 12 to 17 were agreed to by the Committee before the Christmas Recess.
Clause 18 [Time limit for prosecutions]:
4.22 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved to add to the clause:
"(4) Subsections (2) and (3) of this section do not apply where either—

(a) the offence was committed by the making of an oral statement; or

(b) the offence was one of supplying goods to which a false trade description is applied, and the trade description was applied by an oral statement; or

(c) the offence was one where a false trade description is deemed to have been applied to goods by virtue of section 4(3) of this Act and the goods were supplied in pursuance of an oral request."

The noble Lord said: When Lord Drumalbyn put down a somewhat similar Amendment on the previous occasion my noble friend Lord Winterbottom expressed the Government's sympathy with the purpose of the Amendment and undertook to put down a Government Amendment if, after considering all the implications of the proposed change, this proved to be practicable. I hope the noble Lord will agree that the present Amendment achieves his purpose. Its effect will be that, in summary proceedings for an offence committed by making an oral statement, the period of limitation will be the standard period of six months, and not the period of twelve months prescribed by this clause. This shorter period will apply in respect of all oral statements, whether about goods or other matters. It will apply in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It will also cover the special case of application by conduct dealt with in Clause 4(3), where goods are supplied in pursuance of a request in which a trade description is used; in this case, the shorter period will apply if the request is made orally. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 29, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Brown.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: I do not think I need detain the Committee on this mat-
42
ter. I should just like to thank the noble Lord for meeting this point.
LORD CAWLEY: I should also like to support this Amendment, but I want to say something about passing-off actions when a trap order is laid; that is to say, when a person goes into a shop and tries to trap the assistant into giving him something under a wrong trade description. In such cases the court takes very little notice of any such complaint, unless the intended defendant is informed within a very short period of time of what has happened. I feel that this Amendment may not go quite far enough. In the case of oral statements, the intended defendant ought to be informed as soon as possible of intended prosecution. Otherwise, I support this Amendment so far as it goes.
LORD AIREDALE: May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that Sir Ernest Gowers defines the word, "either" as meaning one or other of two, and does he observe that "either" in this Amendment means one of three? Will he look sympathetically upon an Amendment from me at the next stage to leave out the word "either"?
LORD BROWN: Yes; I will try to look sympathetically, subject to advice from my legal advisers who do not always agree with the noble Lord's ideas on grammar. I am neutral on this matter.
LORD DRUMALBYN: On the matter of information, to which my noble friend Lord Cawley referred, may I remind the noble Lord that at an earlier stale I moved an Amendment to ensure that any person against whom a charge could have been made would be informed at the earliest possible moment; namely, apt the time when the enforcement authority gave notice to the Board of Trade? Perhaps he could have a look at that again in this connection. It is, of course, not without precedent that such notice should be given, and I quoted on the previous occasion the example of the motoring offences.
LORD BROWN: I will certainly consider the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20 [Accessories to offences committed abroad]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved to leave out subsection (1) and to insert instead:
"(1) Any person who, in the United Kingdom, assists in or induces the commission in any other country of an act in respect of goods which, if the act were committed in the United Kingdom, would be an offence under section 1 of this Act shall be guilty of an offence, except as provided by subsection (2) of this section, but only if either—

(a) the false trade description concerned is an indication (or anything likely to be taken as an indication) that the goods or any part thereof were manufactured, produced, processed or reconditioned in the United Kingdom; or

(b) the false trade description concerned—

(i) consists of or comprises an expression (or anything likely to be taken as an expression) to which a meaning is assigned by an order made by virtue of section 7(b) of this Act, and

(ii) where that meaning is so assigned only in circumstances specified in the order, the trade description is used in those circumstances.

(2) A person shall not be guilty of an offence under subsection (1) of this section if, by virtue of section 31 of this Act, the act, though committed in the United Kingdom, would not be an offence under section 1 of this Act had the goods been intended for despatch to the other country."
The noble Lord said: When your Lordships discussed this clause on a previous occasion there was general agreement with its purpose, but it was made clear to me that subsection (1) was very difficult to follow. I promised to see whether we could do something better. I shall not weary your Lordships with a detailed exposition of the differences between the new provisions and the old, but I will try to give a brief indication of the changes we have made.
First, we have altered the general shape of the provision. The new subsection (1) lays down the general rule, and subsection (2) explains that there is to be an exception if an order has been made under Clause 31, which your Lordships will remember deals with exports and sundry matters of that sort. Perhaps I can best explain the need for this exception by means of an example. Suppose the laws of Ruritania require an article—say a watch—which we should regard as made in Switzerland, to be marked "Made in England" because of some final process carried out on it here in this country. This would put the British exporter in an awkward predica-
44
ment. If he marks the watches in this country so as to comply with the laws of Ruritania, he will commit an offence against our laws. If he does not, his goods may be seized when they reach Ruritania. Clause 31 therefore enables the Board of Trade to make an order saying to the exporter, "When you are marking watches for despatch to Ruritania you may ignore paragraph (h) of Clause 2(1), which makes origin one of the matters constituting a trade description".
If it is reasonable to make this exception for goods marked in this country, it would be unreasonable not to carry the exception into Clause 20, which we are now considering. That, in fact, was the object of the words formerly appearing, "and the goods were intended for despatch to that country". I apologise now for not making this clear to your Lordships at the time. Perhaps I did not altogether understand it myself. Many of your Lordships found those words in the original subsection very mysterious.
The second change is one of substance. The effect of the words,
"being an indication which could not on any reasonable view be regarded as true "
was to introduce a more lenient standard of truth and falsity for goods marked abroad than applied to goods marked in this country. We now think that there is no need to make this distinction, and I hope your Lordships will agree that by omitting it we have produced a better and clearer provision. Finally, may I express my appreciation of the helpful and constructive criticisms of this clause which I have received from the noble Lord, Lord Cawley. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 1, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Brown.)
LORD CAWLEY: I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for this Amendment. I think it has been a sterling example of co-operation to try to get something right. On Second Reading, and subsequently, I criticised this subsection extremely destructively; and I think the noble Lord will admit that it made no sense at all in the context in which I was looking at it. He then very kindly told me, by letter, what the draftsman was intending, and I saw that

45
the draftsman was viewing this subsection in an entirely different context in which it made complete sense. So it became obvious that the two contexts had to be put together, and the subsection had to make good sense in both contexts. I congratulate the draftsman on having produced this subsection, which I think deals completely with this problem. I am fully aware that it is an extremely difficult problem, but the result of the draftsman's efforts is highly satisfactory to me.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I agree with my noble friend Lord Cawley that the Government and the draftsman have done a very good job in redrafting this clause, and I, too—and I believe that I speak on behalf of all my noble friends on these Benches—am very grateful to the noble Lord. It is certainly not true that I had spotted that a nonexistent present order under Clause 31, applying paragraph (h) of subsection (1) of Clause 2 to Ruritania, was the sort of thing that was being talked about. It is now much easier to see that that is what is intended, and that is a great improvement. So far as the substantive change is concerned, again I should have thought that this was probably an improvement, because even now a certain amount of imagination is needed in bringing a prosecution under this clause, and if at least the test which will normally be applied throughout the rest of the Bill is again to be used here, rather than a wholly different one (which I think will be a rare case in any event, and will therefore be a specialised matter and difficult to get a uniform interpretation for), it represents an improvement. I think this is a great addition to the Bill, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord for having put it forward.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 21 [Restrictions on institution of proceedings and admission of evidence]:
4.32 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved to insert at the beginning of the clause:
"() No prosecution for an offence under this Act committed in any advertisement broadcast on television or radio or published in any newspaper or journal of national or large provincial circulation shall be instituted except by the Board of Trade."
The noble Lord said: I make no apology for referring once again to Molony because, after all, it is the Molony Report on which this Bill is based. In paragraph 685, having recommended that the enforcement authorities should be the local weights and measures authorities, the Report goes on to say:
"… the Board of Trade should assume an overriding interest in the manner in which the law is applied".
Later on it says:
"In one type of case we recommend that one or other of the Departments"—
that is the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food—
"should regard itself as an appropriate prosecutor, namely that of offending advertisements in newspapers or journals of national or large provincial circulation or on television".
I should say that Molony made no specific recommendations to as what the means of implementing that should be.
The Report goes on to say:
"We make no specific recommendations as to the means by which our conception of the relationship between these Departments and local authorities should be brought into being. We emphasise, however, the importance of the law being enforced in a uniform and sensible manner which might not be secured without some form of central co-ordination. Section 109(3) of the Food and Drugs Act 1955 provides one example of the manner in which the desired relationship might be created".
In fact, of course, that section is the one which has been copied, more or less, in Clause 29, which makes provision for notice of intended prosecution to be given to the Board of Trade.
We discussed at an earlier stage whether, in order to avoid multiple prosecutions, the Board of Trade should have the right to require local weights and measures authorities not to institute proceedings, and the noble Lord, Lord Brown, explained (it appears in column 615 of Hansard) that it would be wrong to confer on these authorities a right to prosecute and simultaneously to give the Board of Trade the right to veto their decision to do so. But the point we are discussing now is a rather different question. It amounts to this: that if the Board of Trade are going to accept the advice of the Molony Committee in this respect, so far as "newspapers or journals of national or large provincial circulation or … television" are concerned, this is really precisely what they will be

47
doing. They will have conferred power to deal with this, and then, later, in order to implement Molony, they will have to veto their exercise of that power. If I may say so, I think that in such cases,
"namely, that of offending advertisements in newspapers or journals of national or large provincial circulation or on television"—
the Molony Committee were right to recommend that this should be the field in which one or other of the Departments "should regard itself as an appropriate prosecutor".
I should like to ask as my first question, therefore: Do the Board of Trade agree with Molony in principle on this? Do they agree with that statement of Molony? The second question I should like to ask is this. If they do agree, how do the Board of Trade envisage implementing the principle? It is of course true that the Board could rely on the notice procedure and take over these cases if they could, as it were, use the local weights and measures authorities as their eyes and ears to watch and listen to advertising in national or large provincial circulation newspapers or on television; and of course they will also receive complaints direct from the public and from trade organisations. They do so now. But would this really be satisfactory?
That leads me to my third question. Do the Board of Trade themselves intend to watch such advertising; and, if so, how? What machinery do they propose to set up? If this is their intention, there is not much point in asking the local enforcement authorities to do so as well. Under Clause 25 each local weights and measures authority is charged with enforcing the law within its own area, and only within its own area. It may be that the duty to prosecute in such cases should be laid both on the Board of Trade and on the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Under the Food and Drugs Act the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have powers to prosecute only under summary procedure, I believe. It can be argued that since this Bill allows prosecutions on indictment there is a good deal to be said for laying the responsibility for enforcement in the area of national advertising on only one Government Department, and that that Depart-
48
ment should be the one charged with dealing with the advertising industry as such—namely, the Board of Trade.
Finally, if the Government accept the principle of this Amendment I feel that they may wish to define more closely what is meant by "large provincial circulation". I have used the exact words of the Molony Committee, but it would of course be possible to define them more closely. It has been done, for example, in the case of mergers of newspapers, for the purposes of the Monopolies and Mergers Act 1965, and therefore it can hardly be said that it is impossible to define what is meant by "newspapers or journals of national or large provincial circulation". Perhaps this is a matter which can be left to the interpretation clause. I should perhaps add that if and when local radio stations start to carry advertising it will clearly be undesirable that the duty of enforcement concerning such advertising should rest with local authorities, which have an interest in those local radio stations.
These are the considerations which have led me to put down this Amendment, and I hope that the noble Lord will at least be able to answer the specific questions I have put. They are: Do the Board of Trade accept the Molony recommendation that I have quoted? If so, how do they propose to implement it? Do the Board intend to watch this kind of advertising; and, if so, with what machinery? And is it desirable that only one Government Department should be responsible in this sphere, or should the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food be added to the Amendment? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 23, at beginning insert the said subsection.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: I think one thing is becoming clear in the discussions about this clause. It is that there is a difference of principle between the noble Lord and myself on this issue. The Government have set out to use the local authorities' weights and measures inspectors; and they believe that this will work. I think the noble Lord is not so sure of this and wants to follow a somewhat different principle and to get certain of the measures that we should wish to be taken by the local authorities confined to

49
central sources. That is the difference in principle. I know that the Molony Committee recommended in respect of
"offending advertisements in newspapers or journals of national or large provincial circulation or on television"
that the Board of Trade—or the Ministry of Agriculture, when their interests are concerned—should regard themselves as "an appropriate prosecutor". That is Molony, paragraph 685.
But the Committee did not suggest that these Departments should have the sole right to prosecute in such cases, or even that local authorities should be required to obtain their approval before themselves bringing proceedings. The recommendation was made in the context of the Committee's broader suggestion that the Board of Trade should undertake a co-ordinating function over the application of legislation by, among other things, taking over the prosecution of cases of wide importance. The Committee pointed to Section 109(3) of the Food and Drugs Act (which provides for notification to the Ministry of intended prosecutions by food and drug authorities) as a possible means of achieving appropriate co-ordination at the centre. That is the procedure which we have proposed in the present Bill. It should, in our view, enable us to encourage a uniform and serviceable enforcement policy as desired by the Molony Committee.
I do not want to start a great debate about the meaning of Molony—I am ready to concede that there may be other ways of interpreting Molony—because I do not think it useful to have such a debate. The noble Lord and myself are after different principles; we both seek support from Molony, but even if we both interpreted Molony in the same way I do not think it would help us very much. We must acknowledge that local weights and measures authorities are responsible bodies, experienced in enforcement of similar legislation, who are not likely to bring unnecessary prosecutions and who will be prepared to co-operate with each other and with the Board of Trade in those cases where larger than local interests appear to be involved..
I recognise that the noble Lord does not share that belief. I reiterate that the Board of Trade are ready to consider undertaking central prosecution in cases of national interest. I can, however,
50
see no advantage in obliging them always to do so, and many disadvantages—not least the additional organisation that would be needed if they were made responsible for policing the Bill in relation to all advertisements published in the larger provincial papers and broadcasting systems. It would be impossible for the Board of Trade to undertake such a function in Scotland or Northern Ireland.
Before finishing, I must endeavour to answer the other questions which were asked by the noble Lord. First the matter of implementing Molony. He can now see that whereas he does not think we have implemented Molony, we think we have virtually done so. That is the answer to that question. In one sense, the question of watching advertisement: does not arise if we proceed on our way; but I think it is a question which is administrative in context. If I might hazard a guess, I would say that it is unlikely that the Board of Trade will set up a central organisation to do so. They will rely on the authorities who have the duty to report intending prosecutions to them, and get nation-wide information that way. I have forgotten the other question. Perhaps the noble Lord would like to repeat the fourth question. Or perhaps I have already answered it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: We do not need an answer to the fourth question. It was really consequent upon his acceptance of the Amendment. I am obliged to the noble Lord; but I must say that I think he will find in practice that he will have to follow Molony in this matter. It is a question of whether the Board of Trade accepts the Molony recommendation that the Ministries should be the appropriate prosecuting authorities in this case. If I may say so, I think the noble Lord has hedged on this. He says that there are cases in which the Board of Trade would prosecute. I agree; but the question we are here considering is simply: are we to envisage that there will be 300 or so local enforcement authorities, local weights and measures authorities, all looking at national advertising—because national newspapers circulate throughout the areas of all the local enforcement authorities—or is it more sensible that this task should be undertaken centrally? I have no doubt that it is more sensible that it should be undertaken centrally. It is much more

51
economical, much more effective, much more efficient.
I hope that the noble Lord will continue to consider this question, because I think it is important from the point of view of the shape of enforcement that we are going to have. I would say that between now and the summer there is time to do a good deal of thinking about this matter. At some time or another it is necessary that the weights and measures authorities should be informed of what is to be expected of them, since the Board of Trade have the role of supervising the execution of their duties. I hope that the Board will be issuing a circular on this subject and that in that circular they will be able to accept the Molony recommendation. Nobody can say there is any doubt about it: Molony has recommended clearly that the Ministries should regard themselves as the appropriate prosecuting authorities in these cases.
As the noble Lord continues to consider the pattern of this administration I hope that he will come to see that this is the right form. My purpose has been served by putting down the Amendment. I do not think it essential that this should be down in black and white in the Bill; but I do think it essential that the Board of Trade should make up their minds and that the other enforcement authorities should know where they stand. I think it desirable that the Board of Trade—and possibly the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food—should regard themselves as appropriate prosecuting authorities in these cases. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.49 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved to add to the clause:
"() In England and Wales, proceedings for any offence, where either—

(a) the offence was committed by the making of an oral statement; or

(b) the offence was one of supplying goods to which a false trade description is applied, and either the trade description was applied by an oral statement or, if the trade description is deemed to have been applied by virtue of section 4(3) of this Act, the goods were supplied in pursuance of an oral request,

52
shall not be instituted except by or on behalf of a local weights and measures authority or by a government department."
The noble Lord said: In offences arising out of oral misrepresentation, this Amendment seeks to limit the right to prosecute to the local weights and measures authorities and to Government Departments. Under the Weights and Measures Act, the right to prosecute in England and Wales is confined to local weights and measures authorities and the police. In Scotland, all prosecutions are instituted by procurators-fiscal. Under the Food and Drugs Act, the right to prosecute in England and Wales is restricted to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in some cases; to the food and drugs authorities in other cases; and to the county councils and county borough councils in others. That, I believe, is all in the Sixth Schedule to the Act. There is no right to private prosecution. I should prefer to see the right to prosecute under this measure similarly restricted, were it not for the fact that the Retail Trading Standards Association has performed such a useful service in bringing dishonest traders before the courts in England and Wales. I should be very glad if some means could be found of limiting prosecutions under this measure so as to exclude any person with a personal interest in the result, whether it be an individual or a trade competitor.
Had I seen a way to do so, I would have drafted an Amendment to permit bodies such as the R.T.S.A. and reputable trade associations, as well as local weights and measures authorities and Government Departments, to institute proceedings, and no one else. But in the case of oral statements it seeems to me of particular importance to exclude private prosecutions by individual trade competitors or consumers, even if it means denying the R.T.S.A. and reputable trade associations the right to prosecute in such cases. The reasons which led the Molony Committee to recommend that the law should not be extended to cover oral misdescriptions are particularly cogent against allowing private prosecutions. In paragraph 659 on page 218 of the Report they state:
"… there must be recognised the danger that the shopkeeper might be taken to court out of spite; or threatened with prosecution if he failed to submit to some extortionate demand in relation to the goods. To make oral misdescription an offence would be to put a very

53
powerful weapon in the hands of a disappointed shopper."
The danger of vindictive prosecutions is very real, but if the person has first to lay his case before the local enforcement authority the danger of such a prosecution is much less. It is also easy to envisage self-appointed busybodies setting themselves up locally to encourage or to conduct such prosecutions. The possibility of a degree of blackmail, as indicated by the Molony Committee, also cannot be excluded.
Consumers do make bad buys, and it is only human nature for them to put responsibility on others, in particular the salesmen in the shop, even where they have only themselves to blame. Admittedly, the blame may lie either way, but if they genuinely believe that they have been misled or swindled, surely their proper course, if they cannot get satisfaction from the supplier, is to report the matter to the enforcement authorities, as they would in the case of other criminal offences, rather than to take proceedings themselves in cases of oral misrepresentation.
I think I should add that even the most completely honest retailers view the extension of the law to cover oral statements with misgiving and even resentment. They believe that the possibility of a private prosecution may well undermine the confidence which ought to exist between trader and customer. I think that gross or persistent wilful deception by way of oral statement ought to be punished by the criminal law, but I believe it should be punished only at the instance of the enforcement authority. In my view, the acceptance of this Amendment would not reduce the protection that this measure affords to consumer or trader, for they would be able, under another measure which has recently been laid before this House, the Civil Evidence Bill, to cite criminal conviction under this measure in any subsequent civil proceedings. I hope that that is so, and if the Government accept the principle of the Amendment to Clause 33 in the name of my noble friend Baroness Elliot of Harwood they will be in a still stronger position. But it seems all the more important, in view of the criminal evidence, that private persons ought not to be able to bring criminal proceedings as a means to an end, for their own individual advantage,
54
for the obtaining of civil redress. I think that ought not to be the way that criminal proceedings are treated. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 23, at beginning insert the said words.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, mention the effect the acceptance of this Amendment would have on the actions of the Retail Trading Standards Association. I was even more glad to hear him regret that effect. Obviously I do not know what reply my noble friend Lord Brown will make to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, but I should like to say to my noble friend, in view of the very great part the Retail Trading Standards Association has played in consumer work, that I feel it would be most unfortunate if it were prevented from bringing an action which it felt to be justified.
For those of us who have been interested in consumer work for a long time it is no news that in the 1950s, when the Government and the Board of Trade were dragging their feet and would not bring prosecutions, the brunt was borne by the Retail Trading Standards Association. I think it would be most unfortunate if it were to be limited here I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and I agree with him, that it would be unfortunate if private prosecutions were brought in this matter. But if my noble friend is contemplating the acceptance of this Amendment I hope that he will not accept it if he can see no alternative to depriving the Retail Trading Standards Association and other reputable trading associations of the right to bring these prosecutions.
4.56 p.m.
LORD BROWN: There are many clauses in the Bill which cause me much soul-searching, and this is certainly one of them. I came to the Committee today fully intending to resist this Amendment. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and I was affected, as one is supposed to be, by the debate, and the idea that, in spite, people could take effective criminal action in this case. If it were civil action, it would not be so bad. I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, and I think it would be a tragedy if such a body as

55
the Retail Trading Standards Association was debarred from bringing prosecutions.
One has to reflect that for the ordinary citizen, who does not bring prosecutions from spite but on the very good basis of having been wilfully cheated on perhaps a number of occasions, to be deprived of the right of recourse to the law under this measure would be very sad indeed. The argument in favour of retaining the clause as it stands is that the danger of private spite prosecutions being brought, or prosecutions of a trivial or frivolous nature, is that these prosecutions are very expensive. In itself that would be a substantial deterrent, and there is a further deterrent in that, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, pointed out earlier, if someone is found to have brought a prosecution without justification, the court has power to award costs against him, including the costs of the defendant. So there is a great deal of argument one way and another, and in the light of the debate we have had I should like to look at this point again.
As I said earlier, I came to the Committee not liking the Amendment. I have been affected by listening to the debate, and I should like time to have a look at it. If the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will withdraw the Amendment, we may be prepared to introduce another Amendment at a later stage, although I give no guarantee; because, having looked at it more closely, the balance of argument might still go against the sort of Amendment which the noble Lord has proposed. So I am not committing myself to anything except to have another look at it.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think it is at this point that the noble Lord might also, perhaps with advantage, bear in mind the point made by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn about giving notice to a person who is liable to be prosecuted. Would it not usually be the case that if you have a private prosecution it will be a conflict mostly of evidence, the word of one person against that of another? The person who brings a private prosecution—whether he does it in spite or not does not make any difference for this purpose—will remember the incident clearly, but the shopkeeper will remem-
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ber it, if he remembers it at all, as one of a large series of transactions he carried out on the day in question. He may have no recollection of it whatever. It may have been attended to by one of his assistants who never asked about it at the time. If there is to be an unlimited right of private prosecution, of which I am in favour, there certainly ought to be something done about the question of giving notice. These may be small transactions in some cases, and difficult to remember, and what was said quickly slips from the mind.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble Lord will be familiar with the fact that in certain traffic offences notice of intended prosecution has to be given within a specified time. May I commend that provision to him, because in the absence of such a provision, under Clause 18(1) prosecutions can be instituted within three years. That is a longer period of time than usual and it seems to me that there is no proper safeguard for the defendant. May I support what my noble friend has said by hoping that the noble Lord will not find it necessary to put any restriction on the right to institute private prosecutions?
LORD DRUMALBYN: In view of this discussion and of the noble Lord's undertaking to look at this matter again, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved to add to the clause:
"() No proceedings under this Act in respect of an oral misdescription of goods shall be brought if the oral statement conflicts with any statement marked on or accompanying the goods and that information is not false, unless the purchaser had no opportunity of reading the statement on or before purchase."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is similar to one I put down on the earlier Committee stage and I have attempted to alter the difficulty in the last line but one to which attention was then drawn. I am not certain that I have got it right yet, but I do not think that there is any doubt about which statement is referred to, because obviously an oral statement cannot be read unless one is deaf and has to lip-read. I think that this is an improvement on the previous Amendment. The noble Lord undertook

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to look at it and I should be grateful if he could tell us now the result of his consideration. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 21, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: As the noble Lord has said, we discussed this Amendment in a slightly different form on another occasion and I do not think that the arguments against it are any weaker now. We are dealing with the situation where goods are correctly labelled by the manufacturer, where both the shop assistant and the customer have had an opportunity of reading the label, and where the shop assistant tells the customer something which conflicts with the label. It might be difficult to decide in some cases whether a customer has had an opportunity of reading the label: for instance, where a label on a shirt is tucked away out of sight inside the shirt and the shirt is neatly wrapped up in cellophane. I am not sure whether the customer is expected to know that the label is there and ask for an opportunity of taking the shirt out of the wrapping and to read the label. But apart from that, there are many cases where even though an article is labelled by the manufacturer the customer should be entitled to rely upon what he is told by the shop assistant. The assistant has had just as much opportunity of reading the label, if not more opportunity, and if he considers himself justified in saying something different he should surely accept liability under this Bill for what he says and the customer should surely be entitled to rely on him.
If, for instance, a gramophone needle has a label saying that it will play for 72 hours and the shop assistant falsely tells the customer that this is an underestimate and that in actual fact the needle will play for nearer 200 hours, I think that the assistant should be responsible for what he says. Or if he says untruly that he knows from personal experience that a label warning against the use of a dry-cleaning fluid in a closed space is an unnecessary and over-cautious piece of advice by the manufacturer, he should be covered by the Bill. But if the Amendment were accepted, there would be nothing to prevent a shopkeeper or salesman from deceiving customers by deliberately contradicting true information given
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in a label. This would defeat the purpose of the Bill, which is to make sure that where information is given it should be correct. On these grounds I must ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord. He has quite convinced me, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 [Offences due to fault of other person]:
5.7 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved to leave out Clause 22 and insert the following new clause:
Defences, etc.
"22.—(1) In any proceedings for an offence under this Act it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove—

(a) that the commission of the offence was due to a mistake or to reliance on information supplied to him or to the act or default of another person, an accident or some other cause beyond his control; and

(b) that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of such an offence by himself or any person under his control.

(2) In any proceedings for an offence under this Act of supplying or offering to supply goods to which a false trade description is applied it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that he did not know, and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained, that the goods did not conform to the description or that the description had been applied to the goods.
(3) If in any case the defence provided by subsection (1) of this section involves the allegation that the commission of the offence was due to the act or default of some other person, the person charged shall not be entitled to rely on that defence unless within fourteen days of the service on him of the summons or indictment he has given notice in writing to the prosecutor of his intention so to do specifying the name and address of that person.
(4) Where the proceedings are brought before a court of summary jurisdiction and the person charged gives notice in accordance with the last foregoing subsection, he shall send a like notice to that other person and that person shall be entitled to appear at the hearing and give evidence.
(5) Where the commission by any person of an offence under this Act is due to the act or default of some other person that other person shall be guilty of the offence, and the

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person may be charged with and convicted of the offence by virtue of this subsection whether or not proceedings are taken against the first-mentioned person."
The noble Viscount said: I confess that mine was the tortuous hand which drafted this Amendment, so perhaps I had better explain, on behalf of my noble friend, Lord Drumalbyn, what it is about. The Committee may recollect that, rather unfairly perhaps, I asked on the Question that the clause stand part, on the previous Committee stage, about the third party procedure which is found in the Food and Drugs Act and also in the last Bill on this subject when it came before your Lordships' House some years ago. The noble Lord, Lord Brown, then produced a learned and most informative disquisition upon why it would not be possible to have third party procedure if the trial should be by way of indictment. I accept that. Nevertheless, it seemed to me that there was a way round this, and I have attempted to introduce the third party procedure for summary cases. The result appears in this Amendment. It simply requires notice of the intention to rely upon somebody else's act or default by way of defence in all cases, this having the advantage, it seems to me, that even if the matter were tried by way of indictment, provided it was done soon enough, the prosecution would be able to act under what is at the moment Clause 22 of the Bill or subsection (5) of my Amendment and bring in the other person, either as well as or instead of the person who was originally prosecuted. Therefore, they would get the true offender and know in time who it was said to be, make their own investigations and act accordingly.
I have stolen from the noble Lord's Amendment No. 30B the slight alteration in Clause 23 as it now stands, but apart from this the third party procedure which I have put down is exactly as it stood in the previous Bill. I do not know whether the noble Lord has had time to think about this matter again. I am afraid that the notice I gave was fairly short, but if he could now explain whether or not this procedure is suitable, quite apart from the drafting—I appreciate that I may have made mistakes and that no doubt this Amendment is not suitable for Scotland, because I had no books
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with me when I drafted it, and even if I had I can never find what is suitable for Scotland—or at any rate if he could deal with the principle of the matter, it would be of help to the Committee, particularly as this appeared in the last Bill and I have attempted to follow as closely as possible the drafting of that measure. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 22 and insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD BROWN: As the noble Viscount has said, the proposed new clause is in fact an amalgamation of Clauses 22 and 23, plus the Government's proposed Amendment to Clause 23(1), plus the provisions in subsections (3) and (4) for notice and the third party procedure. I think it is clear, both from what the noble Viscount has said about this Amendment and from the advance warning he was kind enough to give me of his purpose in putting it down, that all I need discuss is the provisions of subsections (3) and (4). The former relates to the notice to be given by a person intending to plead the third party defence; the latter would introduce the third party procedure but only for summary proceedings. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, made this suggestion when Clause 22 was first debated in Committee, and I promised to consider it.
I should like to say something, as briefly as I can, about the technical and procedural aspects of subsections (3) and (4) before discussing their general merits. I am advised that there seems to be no objection to subsection (3) (the obligation to give the name of the alleged real offender), either in proceedings on indictment or in summary proceedings. But there are other cases to which I will come. Similarly the introduction of the third party procedure as proposed in subsection (4) would not, of course, be open to the objections I mentioned when this topic was last debated by your Lordships. But, again, there are other objections.
There are two reasons why we think these provisions could not be accepted as they stand, even if they were acceptable in principle. The first is that we do not think fourteen days after service is a

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satisfactory time limit. I know that it appears in the Food and Drugs Act and in the Weights and Measures Act, but the motor trade, in particular, is concerned, and I think reasonably, about the shortness of the time. There might be difficulties for other traders, as well. However, I do not want to hang the whole of the argument on that. The second reason is that I am advised that the procedure proposed in subsection (4) cannot be fitted into the Scots system of criminal procedure, and an Amendment would therefore be needed for Scotland. The noble Viscount was quite right in his anxiety on that point.
The more serious objection to subsection (4), however, arises from the fact that the offences created by this Bill do not fall into two mutually exclusive classes of offences, those triable summarily and those triable on indictment: with one unimportant exception all the offences created by this Bill are what are called "hybrid" offences. This means that they can be tried summarily or on indictment, and, what is more, that proceedings can be directed to be tried summarily or on indictment. It therefore follows that, when proceedings are instituted, the parties will not know for certain how they are going to be tried. To introduce this procedure for one sort of proceedings and not the other is, therefore, very likely to lead to uncertainty and confusion.
So much for the technical or procedural aspects of the Amendment. May I now turn to the general merits? I have every sympathy with the purposes of both the noble Lords, Lord Drumalbyn and Lord Colville of Culross. I share the wish of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, to save the retailer from being prosecuted for an offence which is really the manufacturer's fault. I should also like, if possible, to avoid what the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, described as the "messy" position that arises if you find that when A has been tried it was really B's fault all along, so that you have to prosecute B to see that the right man is convicted.
I cannot see, however, how subsection (3) or (4) helps the retailer in a case like this. He is always free to try to persuade the prosecution that the real offender is someone else (we hope that he will do so before he is brought to court); and if he succeeds, the prosecution can go straight for the alleged real offender under the by-
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passing procedure which the Bill provides. If we introduce the third party procedure, so far from helping the defendant, we actually impose an extra burden upon him: we say, "You may not plead the third party defence unless you comply with this procedure."
I realise, however, that this does not deal with the case put forward by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. His point, as I understand it, was that it is more economical, in terms of the time and effort of the magistrates and the prosecuting authorities, to try to make sure that the real culprit can be identified and convicted in one set of proceedings. I am not sure that the Amendment would produce that result. All subsection (4) says is that the third party is to be entitled to appear and give evidence. There is nothing about his being convicted. If he cannot be convicted, a second proceeding will be required. I do not wish to labour this point unduly; no doubt the noble Viscount could amend the subsection.
Be that as it may, I think our main concern should be for the interests of the innocent defendant, and after careful and sympathetic consideration of the matter I cannot recommend your Lordships to accept this Amendment. It involves one awkward procedural complication; but more important, in my view, it does nothing to help the innocent technical offender. Indeed, if anything it hinders his conduct of his defence. If he omits to give fourteen days' notice, or has difficulty in establishing the true offender in time to give the fourteen days' notice, or twenty-eight days, or whatever it is—I think there will always be difficulty—then he cannot plead the third party defence at all. I submit that that is not in his interests. If we are considering the matter from the point of view of the retailers, as will generally be the case, it seems to me that the Bill as it stands is better for him than it would be under the Amendment, which seeks to achieve an improved position but does not, I think, actually do so.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord has said, and I must confess that I am rather disappointed by his reply. There are many Bills which create what he calls "hybrid" offences—offences

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which can be tried summarily or on indictment. It is true that when the case first starts the accused will not know whether it is going to be tried on indictment, because his first appearance will be in the magistrates' court. I can see no injustice to a proposed defendant when served with a summons being told: "If you are saying that someone else is responsible for this you must disclose, if you know it, his identity or give such information as you can about who is the person responsible, even if you cannot name him." I should have thought that that would have great advantages for the administration of justice.
In the first place, it would put the prosecution on their guard. They could go into the matter then, and if they thought it was true they would drop the proceedings against the man who had the summons served upon him and would start proceeding, against the other person. It cannot, to my mind, prejudice the accused man that this obligation of giving notice should be put upon him, any more than it really prejudices a person who wants to put forward an alibi defence to have to give notice that he is going to rely on that defence. I think that, from the point of view of the administration of justice, where you want to get the right man convicted, there is a lot to be said for it.
Supposing the case is sent for trial, it is true that you will not be able to try on that one indictment the other party. There is some force in that. But bear in mind that if the notice has to be given after the service of the summons (fourteen days may be too short, and it may require a longer period; I do not know), and if the notice has to be given within a certain time of the institution of proceedings, that will cover the later proceedings which follow the indictment. I cannot believe it is likely that in these cases the prosecution will proceed by way of a voluntary bill; that is to say, without going before the magistrates at all. I would ask the noble Lord to think about this again.
I agree that it may not be possible to have the ordinary complete third party procedure like that under the Food and Drugs Act, but if, after notice is given within a certain time saying that X is the man responsible, the prosecution still
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go on, it may indeed assist the defence, when the trial comes on, to say: "When I was first charged with this I let the prosecution know. Now they intend to go on against me, and they are wrong." If, on the other hand, the prosecution are satisfied, they then drop those proceedings and can go against the right man. I should have thought there was a lot to be said for that, although it does not bring in, as it were, a complete Food and Drugs Act third party procedure. I hope that the noble Lord will have another look at this.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: So do I. Having heard what my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne has said, I should like to try again to see whether I can deal with some of these technical problems. The difficulty about the hybrid offence has already been touched upon by my noble and learned friend, but it seems to me that if I transferred the notice being sent to the other person from subsecion (4) to subsection (3), so that at the stage when one gets to the magistrates' court the prosecution knew and the other person knew, we should at least have achieved something. Whether one is going to give the magistrates power to convict is certainly a matter to be thought about. I think that one should. It can be done under the Food and Drugs Act. And it may be necessary to consider how you ensure that the other person is there, notice having been served upon him.
I think there are procedural difficulties to be thought out, and I certainly should like to consider them. But the noble Lord's main point was not that these procedural difficulties are wholly insuperable: I think he said that it was not really in the retailer's interest to have this procedure at all. But Parliament did not take this view when this other legislation was passed. The Food and Drugs Act third party procedure does work. My noble friend Lord Cawley said so on the last stage of the Bill, and I also happen to know that it works. I do not think it would be used by the shopkeepers who are prosecuted under that legislation unless they thought it was a protection for them. There is no necessity for them to use it if they do not want to do so: it is purely voluntary. Yet they do, and they use it in order to avoid being convicted of an offence which

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certainly brings them into disrepute in their trade.
No person who sells bread wishes to be known as the person who sells bread with a bit of brick in it. No person who sells anything is going to want to be convicted under this Bill, because it is bound to damage his reputation. I think he should have the opportunity on the one and only occasion when the matter comes up before the local magistrates, and the local Press is there to hear it, of perfectly properly shifting the blame on to the person who is really responsible. I think he may consider it a protection for him which he would like to make use of. If he does not, he does not serve notice on the prosecution, and does not use the defence, in which case his views can be equally well respected. But, at any rate, under my system the prosecution will know where they are about this kind of defence. If another person is going to be involved they will have notice of it.
I am not asking the noble Lord to say "Yes" or "No" now. I should like to study the procedural and technical difficulties that have been mentioned and try to put them right. But I think that perhaps he and the Department might be prepared to have another think about this, in case we can produce something which is not only right but a real improvement. I hope the noble Lord will at any rate not harden his heart completely against it at this stage. I would beg leave to withdraw the Amendment to-day, and perhaps we could revert to it on another occasion.
LORD BROWN: Although I am in the presence of noble and learned Lords, I must confess that I have not been convinced by their arguments. I admit that this may be because I do not know enough about all these procedural matters concerning the court. In the light of the weight of the arguments, I will certainly have another look. I will see what my legal advisers have to say, because I am between two opposed sets of legal advisers at the moment.
What convinced me that the Bill as it has been drafted was right lay in matters like this. I think that a large number of prosecutions that will be brought around this matter of false trade desciptions, and so on, will be related to
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manufacturers or advertisers, and so on, and not to the retailer; this is the point where they are picked up. I should have expected it would be much easier for a retailer to say, "Yes. Fair enough. The label is wrong, but I accepted it in good faith." A large number of these cases will go back, as has been indicated in discussion on many clauses of this Bill. It would be much easier for him to be in the position to get smartly off to demonstrate to the local authority that he was not the party involved, and under this Bill we should go for the person who is at fault. We should not put him in the position of going to court—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Lord has never understood that this new clause provides for exactly that to be done. The third party defence is only in as an alternative. If the noble Lord looks at subsection (5) of this clause he will see that I have put in Clause 22 as it now stands verbatim, so that all the person who is charged has to do is to go off to the local authority and try this persuasion. There is nothing to stop him under this procedure which I am suggesting. All I am saying is that if he fails, then he still has a defence and a method of bringing the other person, whom he says is to blame, into court at the same time.
LORD BROWN: I accept what the noble Viscount says. We are pari passu on that count. But if the person charged ends up in court because he has not made himself clear, and has not had legal advice, under the Bill as it is he can plead third party defence; but under the Amendment, unless he has by that time given 14 or 28 days' notice of the person he thinks is the third party, he cannot use that defence. I do not want to go on with this matter. We will have a look at it—I must do so in view of the arguments that have been made—and we will see what happens on another stage. But, frankly, I remain unconvinced, although this may be due to my ignorance rather than to lack of advocacy on the other Benches.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I hope the noble Lord will bear in mind that the prosecution can take place only after 28 days' notice to the Board of Trade. So if my previous Amendment were

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accepted, and the person who is likely to be charged, or whom the local enforcement officer intends to charge, was notified at the same time as the Board of Trade was notified that there was a a possibility of his being charged, this would help him to lay the blame elsewhere and to trace who was really responsible if it is thought the 14 days is not enough. He would then have probably a minimum of an extra 14 days, and possibly an extra month.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Defence of mistake, accident, etc.
23.—(1) In any proceedings for an offence under this Act it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove—
(a) that the commission of the offence was due to a mistake, or to an accident or some other cause beyond his control; and
5.27 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved in subsection (1) to leave out paragraph (a) and insert:
"(a) that the commission of the offence was due to a mistake or to reliance on information supplied to him or to the act or default of another person, an accident or some other cause beyond his control; and".
The noble Lord said: This Amendment would make two changes to Clause 23(1). First, it would provide expressly for the third party defence; secondly, it would provide expressly that a person who committed an offence by reliance on information supplied to him should have a defence if he had acted reasonably. As to third party defence, it has always been our intention and understanding that it should and would be available by virtue of Clause 23(1). We cannot think of any case in which Clause 23(1) as now drafted would not cover it. But doubts have been expressed, and it is a field in which we cannot risk any uncertainty. The Government therefore think the sensible course is to make express provision for it by adding the act or default of a third party to the causes listed in Clause 23(1)(a).
If the Amendment is accepted, it should be clear beyond argument that the third party defence is available under this Bill
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as the Molony Committee recommended that it should be. As to reliance on information supplied to the defendant, the reason for proposing that this should be added to the causes listed in Clause 23(1)(a) is, quite shortly, that we have studied very carefully what the noble Lords, Lord Drumalbyn and Lord Auckland, said on a previous occasion and have come to the conclusion that they were right in saying that a defence of this sort was needed and that it was not provided by Clause 23(2) as now drafted, and probably not by Clause 23(1). I am not saying that I accept all the noble Lord's strictures on Clause 23(2), but I need not go into that now. Clause 23(2) is available only to persons charged with the offence of supplying. We are concerned here with a retailer or advertising agent who applies a false trade description.
Your Lordships will see that we are now proposing to be a little more generous than the Molony Committee. They proposed that only the very limited defence of Clause 23(1) as now drafted should be available for appliers of false trade descriptions. We now think this is too harsh. Not all "appliers" are in the same position. This Amendment makes it possible to do justice to them all—from the manufacturer who initiates the trade description to the small retailer who passes it on by putting a show card by his goods. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 31, leave out paragraph (a) and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Brown.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn may like to say something rather more general about this Amendment, but I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Brown, can help me with one problem to which I have never been able to see the answer in this Bill. May we take as an example the noble Lord's gramophone record that is said to last 72 hours.
LORD BROWN: Gramophone needle.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Yes; I am sorry. I must not put the noble Lord into the wrong trade. Suppose that a man has a shop which sells gramophone needles, and he knows that on the box containing a particular sort of needle is a statement that it plays for only 72 hours; and suppose he has told all the

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shop assistants they are to stick to the wording on the box of anything that they sell, so that they do not get into trouble under this Bill. But suppose that the shop assistant does not do that; he does what the noble Lord has suggested may happen, and tells a customer "Don't pay any attention to what it says on the box; this needle plays for 200 hours". I think the shopkeeper has committed an offence under Clause 1, in that he has supplied goods to which a false trade description has been applied by the words of the assistant, and therefore he is guilty of an offence.
As the matter stands with the noble Lord's Amendment, the shopkeeper certainly could not bring a defence under subsection (2) of Clause 23. He would have to do it, I think, under subsection (1), and he would say, "The other person who was at fault was my own assistant". Then he runs into difficulty under paragraph (b). In the case of his own assistant, has he complied with that paragraph by merely telling the assistant always to stick to the words on the label on the box; or is there going to be a situation where the one person that he cannot blame is his own assistant, who has either disregarded instructions or has said something to which the general instructions given to him by the shopkeeper do not relate? I think there may be a difficulty here. Again I do not suppose this is a matter on which the noble Lord can answer to-day, but I should be glad to know about this because if there is a lacuna here and the real person who ought to have been prosecuted is the shop assistant, but the shopkeeper has not really got a defence under the Bill at all, I think he ought to have. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would turn this over in his mind.
LORD BROWN: The matter has been considered. I have asked a question in preparation for this matter coming up, and I think it might be best if I were to read my note on it, because it exactly fits the case raised by the noble Viscount. Where a shop assistant, in the course of his employment but in disobedience of plain instructions, applies a false trade description to goods, this is a case beyond the employer's control. This illustrates the fact that "cause beyond his control" overlaps the act or default of a
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third person. In this case the defendant must have taken all reasonable care and exercised due diligence to avoid the corn-mission of an offence. The standard of care and diligence will obviously vary with the circumstances. The instructions to the assistant are to go by the instructions on the container, and so on. If the shopkeeper can demonstrate that lie has given such an instruction, he has a defence. I am so advised and I do not think there is any doubt about it.
LORD AIREDALE: I am not sure that there is not a further complication. Supposing the shop was owned by a limited company, subsection (1) of Clause 19 would apply, and it says that directors and managers of limited companies are guilty of offences if the offences are committed by shop assistants, and so oil, employed by the company. Quite where this takes us I do not know, but it is an added complication.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Brown, for having met the point on my Amendment No. 31. I have always been in some doubt about this, but he has correctly interpreted the purpose I had in mind. My doubt has been the same as that expressed: what degree of precaution has to be taken in any particular case? However, I realise that is a matter for the courts. For example, in the case of the advertising agent I do not think he could be expected to verify all the statements that are made to him by the advertiser for whom he is preparing the advertisements; and, of course, in the case of the retailer it may be impossible for him to verify statements without actually causing damage to the goods he is offering for sale. I think these are matters for the courts to decide, and I feel certain they will take a reasonable view in these matters. I was not able personally to draft wording, but I should have liked to see something like "reliance on information supplied to him by persons on whose information he is accustomed to rely". It is a somewhat circuitous expression and I could not think of suitable words.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I want to ask what is probably a very ignorant question, but there is something I do not understand. I want to say to my noble friend that I am

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strongly in support of his Amendment No. 30B, but I have made a note, "provided that Amendment No. 31 is not accepted by the Government". I know that we have not yet reached that Amendment, but my ignorant query is this: do I understand from what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said that Amendment No. 30B, which is put forward by my noble friend Lord Brown, covers his Amendment No. 31, and is therefore acceptable? If it does, I should like to make one comment. If my noble friend can enlighten me I shall be glad.
LORD BROWN: As I understand the situation, if No. 30B is passed, then I rest in the hope that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will not move Amendment No. 31.
LORD DRUMALBYN: That is so.
LORD BROWN: In that case the question does not arise.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Then I shall have a chance to speak on the next Amendment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think the noble Baroness is under a misapprehension. As I understand the situation Amendment No. 30B in fact includes the point raised in Amendment No. 31, and I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Brown, having moved it, my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn will not move Amendment No. 31. So if the noble Baroness has a point she wishes to raise, I think perhaps the Committee would be agreeable to her doing so now.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Everybody is very kind. The point I wanted to make, if we were taking Amendment No. 31, was that I could not understand why we should delete the point that the person took all reasonable precautions. I see my legal friends (if I may call them that) on the other side of the Committee shaking their heads at me, so obviously this is due to my ignorance; but that is the point which was worrying me.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Perhaps I may say what I intended. I was leaving out "and (b)" and then (b) comes in again, but it is not the whole paragraph (b) that was to be left out; it was only the letter ("b").
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am much obliged.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
5.40 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, after Clause 23, to insert the following new clause:
Misleading descriptions etc., which are unintentional
".—(1) Where for the purposes of any proceedings for an offence under this Act it is proved that—

(i) a trade description is misleading, or

(ii) anything, not being a trade description, which is likely to be taken as an indication of any of the matters specified in Section 2 of this Act would, as such an indication, be false to a material degree, or

(iii) anything (whether or not a statement as to any of the matters specified in subsection (1) of Section 13 of this Act) is likely to be taken for such a statement as to any of those matters as would be false,

it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove, in relation to that statement or indication, as the case may be, that he did not intend to mislead and that he exercised all reasonable care to avoid doing so, but if that person establishes that defence the court may nevertheless direct that he cease making the statement or giving the indication, as the case may be.
(2) Where in accordance with Section 5 of this Act it is proved that a person to whom goods are supplied would be likely to think of the goods as belonging to the class in relation to which the trade description is used to an advertisement, it shall be a defence for any person charged with an offence under this Act in that he published or displayed the advertisement to prove that he did not intend the goods to be so thought of and took reasonable steps to avoid misunderstanding.
(3) Notwithstanding the provisions of Clause (Innocent persons not liable for costs), where any person is acquitted of an offence under this section, the court may make such order as it thinks fit as regards the cost of the proceedings."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to secure, first, that if the court decides that a trade description or an indication or statement made about goods or services is misleading in circumstances where an offence would be committed under this measure and, secondly, the court is of opinion that the person responsible for applying the trade description or giving the indication or making the statement has proved that he had no intention of misleading and exercised all reasonable care to avoid doing

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so, then that person shall not be convicted of an offence. There are, of course, precedents in the criminal law for requiring the citizen to exercise due care in a particular respect and for punishing him if he does not do so. But generally speaking I think I am right in saying that it is repugnant to our sense of justice to convict a person of a crime when he had no criminal intent whatsoever, especially if he exercised due care.
I recognise that under Clause 23 it is a defence that the commission of the offence was due to a mistake. But we are not here dealing with mistakes in the ordinary sense. To take an example, under this Bill a person who publishes an advertisement which is misleading in the sense of Clause 3(3) or Clause 13(2) (a) has to take care to consider the contents of the advertisement from the point of view of the reader or viewer. But it is common experience that the things we say are often interpreted in ways very different from what we meant, and in fact quite contrary to the way in which we meant them. How often, for example, do we give offence unintentionally and yet the mistake is on the part of the person who takes offence, not the person who unintentionally gives it.
Perhaps I can best make the point by citing a complaint that came to the Advertising Standards Authority when a particular offer contained in an advertisement of a well known and reputable company was misleading. I think your Lordships will be interested to hear this. In reply, the company recognised that they had not foreseen the possibility of interpreting the words in this way. They said:
"While this lady is clearly literal minded she certainly has a point, and it is a point which slipped through our net. We have a pretty rigorous internal procedure for clearance of copy. Apart from the originator any special pack copy is agreed by four different departments or groups and sometimes by as many as six. On this occasion no one picked up the possibility of ambiguity. However, we shall watch our copy even more closely for this kind of thing in future and should we expand this particular offer, which is incidentally a test, we shall amend the wording to make it completely unambiguous."
On this point, I would draw attention to the fact that the Government are about to be invited to curtail expenditure, and local authorities are also to be invited to curtail expenditure. I think it is very
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necessary that additional obligations should not be laid unnecessarily on the enforcement authorities. I would say this also. In the ordinary way, I have envisaged all along that the methods, which I so much admire, of local enforcement authorities, that is, of the weights aid measures officials, will be continued under this Bill; that is to say, they go along and find out whether an offence was intentional or not, and generally speaking they do not prosecute if it was not intentional. I am sure they never prosecute if the offence was not intentional unless severe damage is going to be suffered by somebody. I hope that the same kind of procedure would be followed. I should have thought that it was desirable to put a defence into the Bill in order that the authorities may be encouraged to work in this way and still further minimise the possibility of prosecutions being brought where there was no intention to deceive.
What I am submitting is that in cases like the one I have quoted the company ought not to be branded as criminal, although at the same time I certainly consider the offending statement ought not to continue to be made. The procedure I have mentioned would really be similar to that which applies in America, where consent orders are made for the discontinuance of such trading methods or advertising methods as the case may be. In other words, the person approached by the enforcement authorities enters into an agreement, gives his consent, to cease and desist from the practice.
In this case, what I am providing in the Amendment, in the last three lines of subsection (1), is that the court, while acquitting the defendant
"may nevertheless direct that he cease making the statement or giving the indication, as the case may be".
I recognise—I think this came up at an earlier stage—that injunction is a civil and not a criminal procedure and that there may be technical difficulties about such a provision, though you have to start somewhere. If that is the only objection, I should be willing to accept an Amendment to delete the last sentence of subsection (1). Indeed, my noble friend Lord Cawley tells me that it is really unnecessary, since if the person concerned continued to make the statement or made it again, he certainly would not be in a position to plead the second time that he did not intend to

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make it. He would, of course, have to be given reasonable time, if a statement was made, for example, on a package nationally distributed, to withdraw packages on which the offending statement was made. In the case of the United States he is given 60 days which is none too much to organise withdrawal of nationally distributed goods.
This is a matter of common sense, where I suggest notice of intending prosecution to the Board of Trade would be particularly valuable, because if a local enforcement authority in a different area were to give notice of intention to bring a prosecution on the same point a short time afterwards, the Board of Trade could say: "It is too early to bring this prosecution because the firm will not have had time to withdraw the packages". I trust that the Government will accept the principle that if a defendant can discharge the onus of proving that he did not intend to mislead and exercised reasonable care to avoid doing so, he will not be convicted of an offence. I may take a rather extreme view in this, but I think we ought not to make criminals of law-abiding citizens by faulty legislation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 23, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: To judge by what was said earlier on, if Clause 20 of the Bill had been an advertisement, the noble Lord, Lord Brown, might have got himself into a difficulty where he would need this defence. As I understand it, the whole essence of some of the offences under this Bill is that, although you did not mean something to have a certain meaning, the courts, looking at it objectively upon the complaint of the prosecution, came to the view that it could have and did have that meaning and that people were misled by it. I think that is the essence of the offences under the earlier clauses and Clause 13, that it is likely to have this meaning. I suppose it is an objective test as to what people would think those words meant or thought they meant, quite regardless of what the person who uttered them or printed them or issued them thought they meant. I understand this to be involved in some of the offences under this Bill. If that is so, the ques-
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tion is whether you rely upon mitigation and the court deciding, in the case where counsel for the accused sets out to them the accused's reasoning, the fact that he never thought of it like that, that he genuinely did let it get through the net, and nobody in his organsation understood the meaning as bearing the one which has now been established as being likely to be understood by the public. Do you allow the whole thing to be dealt with in that way, or do you seek to provide a defence?
When one is considering this I think it is worth while remembering how the matters are dealt with in mitigation. It is true that you can call evidence in mitigation and that it can be cross-examined to in certain circumstances; but more usually mitigation is the job of the solicitor or counsel appearing for the person concerned and it would be upon his word and what he is instructed to say that the court would decide.
I should think that there would be occasions when the court would like to hear and test not only the procedure by which this came about, but also what the accused really did intend, what was in his mind. Far the best way to do that is to provide him with a statutory defence in the course of proving which he has to bring exactly this information before the court. I think the court would know more about it if it were done in that way. I do not think it is conclusive one way or the other, but if you get these type of cases which, as I say, involve an interpretation by a court of something that has been said by somebody else, in a way which he genuinely did not mean it to be interpreted, I think there may be something to be said for putting in a statutory defence rather than relying merely on mitigation. If the court comes to this conclusion, they are bound to convict even if they give an absolute discharge. Again, that is something which people do not like. An absolute discharge is a good way out, but I am sure that if they had a choice many people, perhaps everybody, would still prefer to be acquitted of an offence like this. So I hope that the noble Lord will think seriously about this, for the reasons which I have suggested to him.
LORD BROWN: I must confess to a good deal of sympathy with what has been said. I agree it is rather hard that

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a conscientious businessman, who honestly makes a statement which somebody later on holds to be misleading, should be liable to be prosecuted or even to be punished. But there are various things to be said in defence of the clause as it stands, and I wonder whether I may start by making a comment on American experience to which the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has drawn attention.
What the Molony Report said with reference to the American system is that it is a system whereby an administrative authority makes law "as it goes along". But as compared with the noble Lord's scheme, it has the merit of entrusting the task of law-making to a body other than a court. I think that this difference means, in effect, that they are not really comparing like with like. I am making that comment to show that I am taking note of what the noble Lord said on a previous occasion also in regard to American experience. The second thing I would draw your Lordships' attention to, which I think is most important—
LORD DRUMALBYN: I do not think we ought to argue about American experience. I think I should say that I do not think Molony's view on this would be accepted. I do not think it is really a fair statement of what the Federal Trade Commission does, because, of course, anything that the Federal Trade Commission does can be appealed to the Federal courts, and it is the Federal courts which make the law, exactly as they do here.
LORD BROWN: As I understand it, there is a body continuously considering this matter and, so to speak, formulating case law on it, and it makes the situation rather different from that in this country. However, perhaps we can leave that point. The second, and probably the most valuable piece of argument that I want to put up in defence of the clause as it stands is that we have local authority weights and measures inspectors responsible for bringing these prosecutions, and so far as the Board of Trade are concerned it is very much their desire that there should be some training, which will be necessary in future, so that if on approach they find that there has been the sort of infringement committed in regard to this clause of which examples have been given by
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noble Lords in the debate—that is to say, honest statements which somebody else later on holds to be misleading—they would be given a warning and would be told, "You are outside the law if you do that. It is wrong. Take care in future. But we shall not prosecute you this time." Public prosecuting authorities and the police in this country are famous for that method of dealing with initial offences committed because people have not understood the implications of what they are doing. I think this is something on which we ought to depend in this Bill in a large measure.
There are various other difficulties about accepting this Amendment. I do not want to elaborate them in detail. I am afraid that it would weaken the effect of the Bill to introduce this defence. We think that the noble Lord may be taking too gloomy a view of what the courts may regard as misleading. We are advised that the discretion proposed to be vested in the court would raise awkward questions of the area of application of the order if it were exercisable by courts of summary jurisdiction. This is the advice we have received in the matter. Noble Lords have already drawn attention to the power of the courts to grant an absolute or conditional discharge. It is most valuable that they should be able to do this. Because they have got somebody into court as a result of an over-zealous inspector, at Least they need not convict him of anything; they can discharge him completely.
In the light of those arguments I think it would be safer not to open up what might in fact be a large loophole in this important Bill to the person who is trying to cheat and hopes to get away with this defence, merely in order to save what I submit will be the possibility of a quite small number of injustices brought about by occasional over-zeal on the part of an inspector in bringing such a case in the first place to the courts. Of course, if there is a second offence we all agree upon what should happen. Therefore, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw this Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I might have agreed with the noble Lord had the onus of proving intention been on the prosecution. But, of course, I most carefully drafted this Amendment so as to lay the

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onus of proof of intention on the defence. It is a most difficult onus to discharge—just as difficult as that of proving intention on the part of the prosecution. I know there is a long back history to this, and I know that one of the reasons why the 1887 Act was introduced was because, before that time, there had been an onus on the prosecution as to intention which it was impossible to discharge. But that is a long time ago, and I should have thought that this would be in keeping with the idea of justice in this country. I would doubt whether it would weaken the Bill in any respect at all, because the onus is laid upon the defence.
Although the noble Lord is not convinced at present of the need for this provision, I would hope that he would continue to give it some consideration. I am sure that the clause is not drafted in the way that it ought to be even to achieve its objective; but I remain firmly convinced that the objective it seeks to achieve is a good one. Although I am prepared to withdraw this Amendment now and am not going to ask the noble Lord for an assurance that he will consider it, I know that he will go on considering it, and therefore I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 24 to 26 agreed to.
Clause 27 [Power to enter premises and inspect and seize goods and documents]:
6.0 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved to leave out subsection (1), and to insert instead:
"(1) A duly authorised officer of a local weights and measures authority or of a Government department may, at all reasonable hours and on production, if required, of his credentials, exercise the following powers, that is to say,—

(a) he may, for the purpose of ascertaining whether any offence under this Act has been committed, inspect any goods and enter any premises other than premises used only as a dwelling;

(b) if he has reasonable cause to suspect that an offence under this Act has been committed, he may, for the purpose of ascertaining whether it has been committed, require any person carrying on a trade or business or employed in connection with a trade or business to produce any books or documents relating to the trade or business and may take copies of, or of any entry in, any such book or document:

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(c) if he has reasonable cause to believe that an offence under this Act has been committed, he may seize and detain any goods for the purpose of ascertaining, by testing or otherwise, whether the offence has been committed;

(d) he may seize and detain any goods or documents which he has reason to believe may be required as evidence in proceedings for an offence under this Act;

(e) he may, for the purpose of exercising his powers under this subsection to seize goods, but only if and to the extent that it is reasonably necessary in order to secure that the provisions of this Act and of any order made thereunder are duly observed, require any person having authority to do so to break open any container or open any vending machine and, if that person does not comply with the requirement, do so himself."

The noble Lord said: Since this clause was last considered by the Committee, we have given very careful thought to the arguments which were then put forward for modifying the powers that would be conferred by subsection (1) on authorised officers of enforcement authorities. My Amendment proposes to replace these provisions by a revised subsection, which would meet a number of the points raised in the earlier debate by those of your Lordships who felt that the powers of enforcement officers should be narrowed to a greater or lesser degree.
The most important change of substance is in the new paragraph (b). This would restrict the powers of enforcement officers to require the production of books and documents relating to any trade or business to cases where the officer had reasonable cause to suspect that an offence under the Bill had been committed. I emphasise the word "suspect" because I do not mean "believe". A good deal will hang on the difference between the two words. There would thus no longer be a right to inspect books on a routine visit of inspection or spot check. The condition that the officer should have reasonable cause for suspicion is less restrictive than the condition attached in both the existing and the new subsection to the power to seize goods and documents; namely, that he should have reasonable cause to believe that an offence has been committed. This is as it should be. If the Bill is to be adequately enforced, officers must have power to investigate when their suspicions have been aroused—for instance, by a complaint from a member of the public—and it would often be necessary to

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examine books and documents in order to confirm or disprove the suspicion. When it comes to seizure, however, this would only be necessary when investigations had turned reasonable suspicion into reasonable belief.
The other substantial change is in the new paragraph (c) and follows the Amendment to Clause 17 which removed the power of a court to order forfeiture of goods when an offence has been proved. In the absence of the power of forfeiture, it would no longer be reasonable to allow seizure of any quantity of goods in respect of which an offence appeared to have been committed, as permitted by the existing provision. The power to seize such goods under the new paragraph (c) would therefore be confined to those required to determine whether the apparent offence had in fact been committed. This power would have to be used when it was necessary to subject goods to a laboratory test or some other examination which could not be conducted on the spot, and when the goods could not practicably be obtained by purchase as contemplated by Clause 26. For instance, the owner of the goods might refuse to sell them to the officer. Or, if all that was needed was an examination which would not injure the goods, there might be no justification for requiring the officer to buy them—particularly in the case of an expensive article like a motor car. The new paragraph (d) would retain the further power included in the present provision to seize goods or documents which the officer reasonably believes may be required in evidence. Taken together, paragraphs (c) and (d) would produce the effect envisaged in the Amendment moved at an earlier stage by the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, which would have restricted the power to seize goods to goods reasonably required for the pur-purposes of testing or prosecution.
There are a number of other, less important, changes which this new subsection would effect. The powers would, like the similar powers in the Food and Drugs Act 1955, be exercisable only "at all reasonable hours". The existing provisions contain no such limitation and some of your Lordships thought this objectionable. We do not believe that enforcement officers would seek to exercise their powers at unreasonable hours, but since the point has caused some concern, we are content to accept the express limitation. The power to take
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copies of books or documents or of parts of them has been reworded in the new paragraph (b) to eliminate the reference to extracts"which the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, feared might be misunderstood. The rewording also makes clear that the officer cannot require the person producing the books or documents to provide him with copies, but must make his own.
Finally, the new paragraph (e), dealing with the officer's right to require the opening of containers or vending machines in certain circumstances, now provides expressly that if the person in authority refuses to comply with the requirement, the officer may open the container or vending machine himself. The new wording would carry out the intention of an Amendment moved on a previous occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, which my noble friend, Lord Winterbottom, undertook to implement. I should add, with reference to a question raised in the same debate by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, that this provision would not entitle the officer to force the vending machine open. He would not be entitled to open it unless he could do so without causing damage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 10, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Brown.)
LORD AIREDALE LORD AIREDALE moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, in paragraph (a) of the proposed new subsection at the beginning to insert:
"if he has reasonable cause to believe that an offence under this Act has been committed".
The noble Lord said: We are all very grateful to the Minister for having met a number of the points which were made on the last occasion when we discussed Clause 27, but I am somewhat disappointed that the subject of this Amendment has not yet been agreed to by the Minister. This is an Amendment to secure that under paragraph (a) of the new subsection the official's power to enter premises and inspect goods shall not be permissible at random but shall be only when he is acting on suspicion, as is the case under other paragraphs. We had one of the most spirited debates on this particular subject when we were

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originally discussing this clause in Committee. It was an interesting debate for the reason that it took the Minister and me quite a long time to get on to the same wavelength in discussing this matter. It was probably my fault. I used the expressions "spot checks" and "random checks", and the Minister then called to his aid all kinds of quite harmless random checks, such as the policeman going round at night to check that shop doors were properly locked, and so on—things to which nobody could possibly object. But of course those were not the kinds of random check which I was considering. The expression I ought to have used was "random interference with the liberty of the innocent trader", for that was the point I was trying to put over.
I was surprised at the Minister's short summary of his argument, which appears in Hansard of December 4, 1967, at column 489, where the Minister said:
"Either you continuously enforce the law by watching every act; or you spot check; or you do not watch anybody"—
to which I would add a fourth "or": "or you act on suspicion". I should hope that Scotland Yard would say "Hear, hear!" to that, since I imagine that Scotland Yard spends practically the whole of its time acting on suspicion.
I should like the Committee to agree that under paragraph (a), giving power to inspectors to enter premises and inspect goods, they shall do so only on suspicion. Nobody objects to an inspector spot-checking shop windows, or indeed going into shops and looking round and spot-checking in that way, because then he is indistinguishable from any shopping member of the public. What I am concerned about is the point at which the inspector says to the shopkeeper, "Open this case here"; "Open that crate"; "Take me into your warehouse", telling the shopkeeper to open this and open that. If the shopkeeper asks, "Why?", the inspector has to say, "For no reason at all. I am just making a random check to see whether by any chance you are selling goods bearing a trade misdescription."
LORD BROWN: The noble Lord referred to the case of an inspector who goes in and says, "Open that; open this". If the inspector is going to pro-
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ceed to that sort of activity, he must have reasonable cause to suspect, and we are making an Amendment to paragraph (a)—
LORD AIREDALE: I am sorry but I do not follow this. Under paragraph (a), as I read it, the inspector has power, without having any suspicion at all, to demand that the shopkeeper shall drop what he is doing, start opening the crates and take him into the warehouse, and so on. If my reading is wrong I shall certainly take back what I am saying, but that is how I read the paragraph.
What I should like to know is this. What evidence is there of such widespread mischief in the field of trade misdescription on the part of traders as to justify the giving of this sweeping power to make random checks, interfering with the liberty of traders? I ask your Lordships to bear in mind the hatred that is going to be stirred up among honest traders against any official who acts in that way. No trader minds an official arriving on the spot out of the blue to inspect the scales, because the honest trader's scales may be out of adjustment against his interests just as much as the other way. But if the inspector then says, having checked the scales, "Now take me into your warehouse and start opening the crates so that I can inspect your goods, although I have no suspicion against you at all", it is going to stir up hatred, and I do not believe that this interference with what I call the liberty of honest traders is at all justified.
Finally, let me just mention again, as I think I must, the consequences of your Lordships' accepting paragraph (a) without these words about suspicion being incorporated. It will mean that a magistrate will be able to empower an inspector to enter premises by force, for the purpose of making a completely random check to see whether some trader has goods in his warehouse, shall we say, bearing a false trade description. One may say that no magistrate would be likely to do this, but I am not so sure. If a strong and domineering official goes before a weak magistrate and says, "All I am asking you to do is to give me a warrant to do what I am entitled to do under this Act of Parliament", the magistrate may find it very difficult to refuse.
If that officer, acting under that warrant, breaks by force into some trader's shop

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and finds nothing wrong at all—as he probably will find nothing, because he has not been acting on any suspicion at all—it will lead to a public outcry. People are going to say,"What a disgraceful performance! What has happened to the liberty of the subject in England? "Perhaps I am putting this rather too strongly, but I feel strongly about it. I think we must protect innocent traders by inserting at the beginning of the new paragraph (a), which gives this power of inspection, the words which I propose:
"if he has reasonable cause to believe that an offence under this Act has been committed "
I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Line 5, at beginning insert the said words.—(Lord Airedale.)
6.15 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: This Amendment raises the whole question of how the enforcement authorities are to go about their duties. On the one hand, they can, as the noble Lord puts it, act on suspicion. On the other hand, they can act as a matter of routine as they do at the present time. For example, I think they reckon each year to send inspectors into every shop where there are weights and measures. They regard it as their own duty, if they are going to carry out their enforcement duties properly, to pay a visit once a year.
This Bill greatly widens the range of premises which will be covered. All the premises which give services will also be brought in. One has to ask, therefore: is it expected that there will be a routine inspection of them? If so, will the additional staff be made available in the circumstances? If it is quite understood that there is to be a routine inspection, and this is what the Government want, then I presume it would not be unreasonable to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. But if there k not to be a routine inspection, surely the inspectors will be entering only if they have grounds to suspect.
It may be that it will be necessary to make a distinction—and I drafted an Amendment on these lines, although I did not put it down—between those premises where the enforcement authorities already have a right of entry, and those where they do not yet have a right but will have under this Bill. It might be that in the
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second class of cases it would be desirable to say that they may enter only when they have reasonable—I do not mind whether it is "cause to believe" or "cause to suspect", but in view of what the noble Lord has said I think that "cause to suspect" may be the right phrase.
Would the noble Lord consider making this division between the two sorts of cases: those where the enforcement officers, who are the weights and measures inspectors, already go into premises as a matter of routine inspection, and those where services are carried out which are now to be covered by the Bill and where the officers do not yet go? I presume—and I am sure this is right—that the noble Lord will not expect them just to push the door open, take their hats off and set about an inspection to see whether any offence has been committed. Obviously, they will go in only if there is reasonable cause to suspect; and this must surely be right. In that case it is obviously right to make a distinction between the two kinds of cases. That is what I want to say, but I think it is important, at a time when economies are expected, that we should not lay on enforcement officers an extra duty, which is probably quite unnecessary, of making a regular inspection of premises which are being brought in for the first time under this Bill.
LORD HAWKE: I have heard my noble friend's speech with a certain amount of horror. I am not quite sure that he has properly visualised the scope of this Bill. A weights and measures inspector goes into a shop and inspects the weights and measures. If it is now visualised that he is to act as a policeman, and visit all the shops in the neighbourhood, then the army of people required will be absolutely vast, because not only will the inspectors have this routine task of checking up the weights and measures but they will have to look at other goods in the shop to see if there is a misdescription of them.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Would my noble friend forgive me for interrupting him? I really am not suggesting that at all. The only question is whether a person is able to enter a shop as a matter of routine, as he does as a weights and measures inspector, or whether he can go in as a matter of suspicion. After all,

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once he is in, he is there. He does not have to break in. He does not have to get the permission of a justice of the peace to go in. He is there already, on his routine inspection.
LORD HAWKE: I think I appreciate my noble friend's point, but he and I are somewhat at cross-purposes. My object is to try to see that the army of inspectors is kept as small as possible, and if the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, is accepted I think it will contribute towards that end, because it means that nobody is going to enter in unless he has a very good idea that an offence has been committed. Once we get the contrary, I think the scope for inspection and the vast army of people required will be quite beyond the capacity of the taxpayer to bear.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for moving his Amendment, which I think is a great improvement on the rather harsh wording in the Bill before. I myself had an Amendment down on a previous stage which I withdrew on my noble friend's undertaking to reconsider it. I am very glad that he has reconsidered it. I am also glad that the words, "at all reasonable hours", which I suggested in my Amendment, have been included, but I am not clear why the other words I suggested, "subject to the production of his credentials", have not been included.
The original wording in the Bill was, "may … on production, if required, of his credentials", and that wording has been retained. The wording in my Amendment was, "subject to the production of his credentials". In other words, I was suggesting that before he enters he must produce his credentials and show that he is a bona fide inspection officer, just as a police officer in plain clothes has to produce his credentials before he is allowed to exercise any powers. I am surprised that the Government have not included this wording, which I should have thought appropriate in these days, when there is so much crime and when it is necessary for people to identify themselves before they enter premises, and I should be grateful if my noble friend the Minister would explain why they have not done so.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Before the noble Lord deals with that point, may I say that I am still not certain of the factual situation upon which the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, was based. I confess that I looked at the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Brown, and thought I was satisfied with it. I thought it was a great improvement on what had been in the Bill before. I had not appreciated every subtlety of the difference between "suspicion" and "belief", and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, would not have gone beyond "suspicion", rather than "belief", in his Amendment had he also appreciated the distinction.
LORD AIREDALE: Hear, hear!
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: But the point is this. As I understand it, now that it is a matter of reasonable hours, the weights and measures inspector will broadly speaking be able to go into the shop either as an officer of the local authority or as a member of the public. There is no reason why a weights and measures officer should not go into a travel agency as an ordinary member of the public; and, if that is all he is going to do, and then have a look round, it seems to me there is no necessity for him to have even the requirement of suspicion to do so.
But then the noble Lord says, "He goes on into the warehouse and he starts breaking open containers, or requiring containers to be broken open, so that he can look inside". I do not believe he can, because if the Committee will look at paragraph (e) of the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Brown, it will be seen that there is a specific reference to powers to break open containers and it is given to an inspector in certain circumstances only; that is to say, to deal with the seizure of goods. If the Bill says that, I do not believe that he will be empowered, under the word "inspect" in paragraph (a), to go and break open containers, or require them to be broken open, for that purpose at all. I feel sure that the courts will say, when interpreting it, that if Parliament had intended that it would have said so, and it has not. So I do not believe that the noble Lord is right about that.

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So really what one is arguing about is this. It is all right for the inspector to go into the shop or the travel agency, because there is the provision about reasonable hours and he could go there anyway as a member of the public. But is he or is he not, without suspicion, to be allowed to go into non-dwelling-house parts of the premises where he would not be able to go as a member of the public? So it really boils down to the warehouse. Is he or is he not to be able to go into the warehouse without suspicion of the commission of an offence? I should have thought that, when he can go into the shop, there is really little danger in also allowing him to go into the warehouse.
I turn to the question of what the warrant from the justice of the peace allows him to do. I also do not find this very difficult, because, again, it is only a matter whereby the justice of the peace allows him to do what he otherwise has powers to do. The justice of the peace, as I understand it, cannot give him a warrant to go in by force except at reasonable hours. If they are reasonable hours, the fact that the shopkeeper is shut up and will not let people in as members of the public seems to me to be very curious, and it might be a good reason for a warrant from the justice. On the other hand, all the other matters now require the justice of the peace to be satisfied, before he grants a warrant, that there is either suspicion or belief of an offence having been committed or being about to be committed. In those circumstances I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Brown, had in fact struck the right balance in this matter, and that, at any rate if my interpretation about breaking open containers is right, there really is not very much for the honest trader to fear.
6.27 p.m.
LORD BROWN: I once had a very lazy friend who used to say to me, "If you leave undone for long enough some of the jobs which you ought to be doing, somebody will do them for you". I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, because he has done a large part of my job for me. I profoundly agree with the remarks that he has made, and I would draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, to them. I tried to interrupt the noble Lord to point out that I thought he was
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proceeding to build an argument on a wrong basis, but I did not manage to make myself clear. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, has, I think, pointed that out. Under paragraph (a) the inspector may not insist that things are opened, or break them open himself, or do any of the things that the none Lord was afraid he would be able to do. He can look at things. That is really what it means. The word is, "inspect". To inspect does not really mean to open; it means to look. I do not think there is any need for this Amendment on those grounds.
As to the other matters which have been raised, by the same token I art grateful for the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, the rather frightening things the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, suggested might happen if we had a weak justice of the peace and some officers of rather evil intention. But those are exceptional circumstances, and if we hypothesise enough weakness or evil men then no part of society will work adequately. I shudder to think what would happen with regard to all the police provisions if one thought about what they were doing on the same hypothesis as the noble Lord suggested might apply in the case of this Bill.
My noble friend Lord Strabolgi raised the question of credentials. The intention is that the duly authorised officer should, in the course of carrying out his business, be able to look at goods in shops or other places; and to require him, every time he is in a shop and feels he would like to look at something in there, to produce his credentials and show them to the shopkeeper, is I think quite an unnecessary and alarming procedure, bearing in mind that it might be done in front of customers. I am sure the shopkeeper would very much rather that he did not behave like that. If he has a look round and gets suspicious, then, of course, he can show his credentials. He will then be in quite a different position from one of merely inspecting. I do not think I should want him to show his credentials every time he walked into a place where he wanted to look at something.
The noble Lord, Lord Hawke is very much afraid of the dangers of increasing i the number of civil servants. So

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am I. But this is not a question of setting up a routine—if, by "routine", the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, means an insistence that every premises where goods are offered shall be visited at least once every so often. I do not think that that is going to be administratively possible or even desirable. These local authority inspectors have routes that take them round to retailers and other establishments. In my submission the additional number of establishments which will fall outside the ambit of those they will visit for one reason or another will not be excessive. By some extension of their tours and visits they will be able, coupled with complaints from the public, to keep sufficient check reasonably to enforce the provisions of this Bill. With that, and in the light of the assurances given about the powers under paragraph (a) of the subsection, may I suggest that this Amendment be withdrawn?
LORD AIREDALE: I apologise for having introduced the question of opening containers and perhaps thereby unwittingly confusing the Committee. It is a matter which is specifically covered by paragraph (e). But I do not think this affects my argument. What I am complaining about is the situation where an honest trader is beset by an inspector who wants to go into his shop inspecting goods, into the storehouse behind the shop, rooting about among the goods and into the warehouse and doing likewise—and probably rooting about behind mountains of merchandise, because persumably if there is anything "fishy" in the warehouse it will not be in the front row. The honest trader is going to have either to accompany the inspector himself or depute somebody else to do so. His liberty and the running of his business are going to be interfered with. The question is whether it is right to allow this to happen when the inspector is acting purely at random and without any suspicion against this trader at all.
When it comes to the magistrate's warrant the situation is this. If the magistrate chooses to do so he can give a warrant to the inspector to break into the trader's warehouse. This could happen, especially during the Chistmas rush when a trader (who is perfectly honest) says to the inspector, "I am not going to let
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you into my warehouse. It is locked and I am very busy". The inspector, having no suspicion whatever against that trader or any suspicions that there are any wrongly-described goods in that warehouse, can then go to the magistrate and can get a warrant to enter the warehouse by force. Is that right? Is there enough evidence of mischief under the matters which this Bill is designed to prevent? Is that enough evidence for this sweeping power to enter by force if necessary?
LORD BROWN: Would the noble Lord look at the first line of subsection (3) of this clause. It reads:
"If a Justice of the Peace, on sworn information in writing—"
His comments are not in line with the implication of that line of subsection (3). He has offered the idea that it can be done quite irresponsibly, in the case of a man busy with his Christmas trade. This is a very serious procedure, directed, with a due sense of responsibility, in necessary circumstances.
LORD AIREDALE: What I am going to say now is near to what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, on the last occasion when the noble Lord made this point. I am now reading from the same subsection:
"If a justice of the peace, on sworn information in writing … is satisfied that there is reasonable ground to believe that any goods … are on any premises "—
and then I leave out words which do not apply—
"… the justice may by warrant under his hand … authorise an officer … to enter the premises, if need be by force."
All the magistrate has to be satisfied about is that there are some goods in the warehouse. Notwithstanding that there is no suspicion about those goods in the warehouse, the magistrate has the power, under this Bill, to authorise the officer to enter the warehouse "if need be by force." I do not think that is right. But there is no good in going on. I will therefore withdraw this Amendment at this stage and reconsider what noble Lords have said on the other side of the topic.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD AIREDALE: This is a drafting Amendment to the new subsection (1)

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moved by Lord Brown, and would bring the wording of paragraph (c) into line with that of paragraph (b). Paragraph (b), having referred to an offence under this Act, when it refers to the offence again refers to it as "it". This Amendment would have the same effect on paragraph (c). Having referred to an offence under this Act, on the second occasion it would refer to it as "it". I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Paragraph (c), line 4, leave out ("the offence") and insert ("it").
LORD BROWN: I have sympathy with any Amendment designed to shorten the Bill, but only if it does so without any loss of clarity. The noble Lord has said that his Amendment makes for consistency between paragraphs (b) and (c) of my Amendment, No. 32, but I would point out that in paragraph (b) only 14 words separate "an offence" in the first line and "it" in the third, whereas in paragraph (c) 23 words separate "an offence" in the first line and "the offence" in the fourth. I think that if the pronoun "it" is substituted for "the offence" in "he fourth line the reader may well lose the thread when he reaches the pronoun. I suggest that if the noble Lord had himself set out to draft paragraph (c) he too would have repeated the word "offence" when he came to the fourth line, and I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD AIREDALE: It would not be the first time that somebody has "lost the thread" on reaching a pronoun in an Act of Parliament. But I will not pursue the matter further. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment to the Amendment.
Amendment to Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.38 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE LORD AIREDALE moved, as an Amendment to paragraph (c) of the proposed new subsection (1), to leave out "break". The noble Lord said: The substantive Amendment uses the expression
"A duly authorised officer … may … require any person … to break open any container".
I do not want to make a long speech about this Amendment, but in my submission the question of whether a person
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is to "break open" the container ought to be a matter for the person required to open it. All the inspector is interested in is that the container shall be opened. Whether the trader chooses to break it open with a jemmy or to open it in some way which does not involve breaking it is surely a matter of choice for the person to whom the official is speaking. I see no reason why an Act of Parliament should authorise an inspector to command somebody to break open something if that person wishes to open it by some gentler means.
When the Minister was moving his substantive Amendment, No. 32, I thought I understood him to say that if the trader refused to open the container, the inspector would have power only to open it and would not have power to break it open. I did not understand this, because it did not seem to follow from the wording of the substantive Amendment. I should have thought the wording was such that if the trader refused to break open the container, the inspector had power to break it open himself; and again I do not see why inspectors should have power to break open containers, particularly containers which could, with a little care and trouble, be opened without breaking. I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Paragraph (e), line 6, leave out ("break").—(Lord Airedale.)
LORD BROWN: Since the noble Lord has quoted me, may I requote the words, because I did read them? I said that, finally, new paragraph (e), dealing with the officer's right to require the opening of containers or vending machines in certain circumstances now provides expressly that if a person in authority refuses to comply with the requirement, the officer may open the container or vending machine himself. I did not use the word "break" at all there. The word "break", which the noble Lord would like to omit, is used in a precisely similar context in the Weights and Measures Act 1963. I suggest that there is a significant difference in the context of paragraph (e) of Amendment No. 32 between the power to break open and the power to open, and that it is essential that an enforcement officer should have the power to break open a container if he is to be able to carry out his duty adequately.

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If the word "break" were omitted from paragraph (e) and the inspector suspected that, let us say, a box of chocolates was wrongly marked, and he wanted to inspect the contents, the shopkeeper might say, "You cannot open that box without breaking open the cellophane and you have no power to break open the container." There are many cases like the one I have quoted, where breaking open is the only means of getting at the goods inside the container, and I think that the power to break open a container is one which an enforcing officer must have. It is possibly a misunderstanding of the word "break" which has lead the noble Lord to put down his Amendment, because the word "break" is used in the sense that there are many types of containers to-day which can be opened only by breaking. It must be remembered that an inspector can use the power
"… only if and to the extent that it is reasonably necessary in order to secure that the provisions of this Act and of any order"
made under it are complied with. Therefore, if the officer was challenged he would have to prove, by reference to objective criteria, rather than simply to his own views, that it was necessary to break open the container. The power is not one that he would use lightly. I hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Is the noble Lord right about this? He was talking about boxes of chocolates, but as I understand this, the officer could break, or require any person to break, open a container only for the purpose of seizing goods. The power is qualified by the words, "only if and to the extent", and so on. So I do not think that the question of inspecting to see whether the chocolates are bad, or have been marked in the wrong way, arises under paragraph (e). It is only for seizing goods and therefore that must have been a had point. If that is so, is not the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, perhaps right? If it is a question of seizing, the sort of containers that we are after are the crates. You do not seize a tin of peaches by taking the peaches out of the tin, you take the whole lot along, do you not? I should have thought you could do without the word "break".
LORD BROWN: I think the noble Viscount is quite right, and he has got me on a bad example. But he has not destroyed the validity of my case that there are many types of containers the contents of which might have to be secured under paragraph (e), which have to be broken open. Other persons might use the word "open", but if the person who is suspected can say, "You are not going to break that because the law does not say you can", it will be putting a barrier of a very serious sort in the way of an enforcing officer.
LORD AIREDALE: I think the example of the box of chocolates is an extraordinarily bad one for quite another reason. Imagine that the word "break" is left out, and that the only power left is the power to open. Is anyone going to say that because a box of chocolates has a bit of cellophane round it an inspector cannot open it, or break the cellophane, just because the law does not say that he may break it open? I think that is fantastic. The only question is whether the Minister is going to accept the Amendment now, or whether I shall withdraw it until we think about it for the next stage.
LORD BROWN: We have had a good deal of discussion about this. I do not want to sound obstinate, but even if I did think about this a good deal more, I am quite certain that I should not be brought to the stage of wanting to accept it. That is the most tactful way I can say, "No, I do not like the Amendment: in the last analysis, we must have the power to break open".
LORD AIREDALE: I do not like it, but I will withdraw the Amendment on this occasion, and we will return to it at the next stage. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD AIREDALE: This is an Amendment to the last line of paragraph (e) of the proposed new subsection (1). We were told a short time ago about the number of words which separated the operative words in an earlier paragraph. I have not counted the number of words which separate the words "he may" at the beginning of paragraph (e) and the words, "do so himself", at the very end of paragraph (e), but there are about nine

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or ten lines of them. I should have thought the Minister's argument a short time ago made it abundantly clear that it was necessary to repeat the words "he may" in the last line of paragraph (e) so as to make it read "he may do so himself" without referring back to the words "he may" about ten lines further up the page. I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Paragraph (e), line 8, after ("requirement") insert ("he may ").—(Lord Airedale.)
LORD BROWN: I accept.
On Question, Amendment to Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Amendment No. 32, as amended, shall be agreed to?
LORD DRUMALBYN: I do not wish to detain the Committee, but all the noble Lords who have already spoken except myself have expressed appreciation of the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Brown, and his advisers, have met to a very large degree, if not altogether, the points made the last time we discussed this matter. I should like to say we appreciate that.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
6.48 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved to insert after subsection (4):
"() Where under this section any goods have been seized and detained and in the course of detention they have deteriorated or been in any way damaged, then if—

(a) no proceedings are brought against any person in relation to the goods, or

(b) the person from whom the goods were seized is not convicted of any offence in relation to the goods

the weights and measures authority or the government department on whose behalf the officer seized the goods shall restore the goods to the state in which they were when seized or, if they cannot be so restored, shall purchase the goods at the price at which they were being offered for supply".
The noble Lord said: This is a comparatively simple point. It relates to cases where goods have been seized and detained, and where no proceedings are brought against any person in reference to them, and the person from whom the goods were seized is not convicted of any offence in relation to the goods; and where, during the period of being detained or tested the goods are spoilt. Where will the loss lie? Will it lie on
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the individual who owns the goods, or is it to be spread over the community which the authority represents? I think that one has only to pose the question to see what ought to be the answer, and I commend the Amendment to the Committee.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 30, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: I have a good deal of sympathy with this Amendment. I should not expect that the enforcement authorities would often have to exercise their powers to seize goods under this clause. In the majority of cases they will no doubt buy the goods required for testing or examination, as content-plated by Clause 26. But when they do find it necessary to seize, it seems to me that if they decide after further investigation that proceedings are not justified, or in any proceedings there is no finding of guilt against the owner of the goods, it is fair that the owner should be entitled to the return of his goods in the same condition as they were when seized.
I am advised that there is little precise authority on the position at Common Law, and it is by no means clear what the owner's rights are. I accept therefore that there is a case for including an express provision in this Bill to deal with the matter. I do not think, however, that the noble Lord's Amendment would produce the right result. He proposes that if the enforcing authority are unable to restore the goods in their original condition, they should be obliged to buy them at the price at which they were being offered for supply. This would not always he an appropriate measure of compensation, or even a feasible one. The goods might have been taken from newly delivered stock on which a price had not yet been put. Or they might have been goods which never would be priced for sale—for example, goods to be let on hire of supplied in exchange for trading stamps. And where the goods had been on offer at a particular price the quoted figure would not necessarily represent the amount that the seller expected to get for them. One has only to think of the prices marked up on the windscreens of second-hand cars offered for sale.

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Accordingly, while I do not dissent in principle from the proposition that the owner of seized goods should be compensated if they are lost or damaged by the enforcing authority, I am sure that the method of providing for this needs further thought. It is by no means a straightforward question. If the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment, we will undertake to consider whether an acceptable means of achieving its purpose can be found. If it can, we should be ready to introduce a suitable Amendment in another place.
LORD MITCHISON: Before the Amendment is withdrawn, may I suggest two points worth looking at here? The first is to make sure of the identity of the person from whom the goods are seized in order to get the right person. There may be questions of persons in employment. The second point is that it would be better to put in a reasonable price and so avoid this question of the price which may or may not be attached to the goods on offer for sale.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I much appreciate what the noble Lord has said, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29 [Notice of test and intended prosecution]:
6.53 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: As the Bill now stands, it is not only the local weights and measures authorities who will be prosecuting. There will also be private prosecutions. If the Board of Trade are to carry out their supervisory function, it would not seem unreasonable that everybody should have to give notice to them; otherwise it is plain that it would not be possible for the Board to stop multiple prosecutions, a subject we have already discussed. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to accept this Amendment.
I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 31, leave out from beginning to ("to") in line 33 and insert—
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("Proceedings for an offence under this Act shall not be brought except by a government department unless not less than twenty-eight days' notice has been given ")—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said, and I am not sure what he has in mind in moving this Amendment. I wonder whether his Amendment is designed to prevent the possibility of double prosecutions. I have discussed this with the director of the Retail Trading Standards Association. I asked him whether, in his long experience in these matters, he had found double prosecutions occurring. I also asked him what his association felt about the noble Lord's suggestion.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I said "multiple prosecutions"—that is even more than double.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: The director of the R.T.S.A. told me that over some 17 or 20 years he remembered only one case of double prosecutions, by the Weights and Measures Department at Leeds and the R.T.S.A. at Stoke-on-Trent, which took place in April of last year. The fine at Leeds was £75 and at Stoke-on-Trent one of £240. On the question of giving notice, Mr. Diplock said that they could certainly give notice of their intention, but that in some cases actual prosecutions might not be brought. Notice could be given to the Board, but it might well be that when investigations were made it would be found that a case would not stand up to a prosecution. I do not feel strongly about this, but I should be glad if my noble friend would consider this in his reply.
LORD BROWN: I find it difficult to see that the giving of notice of private prosecutions to the Board of Trade, which is what the Amendment in effect proposes, would serve any useful purpose. As your Lordships know, the purpose of Clause 29(2) as it is drafted is to enable the Board of Trade to play a part in co-ordinating enforcement by local weights and measures authorities and in advising them on the courses which other authorities are pursuing. It would, for instance, be very useful where there was a danger of multiple prosecutions being brought by different authorities for the same offence.

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In putting forward these provisions, we have—for reasons which I have fully explained on earlier occasions—framed them so that the Board will have no right of veto. We believe that we can safely rely on the common sense of the local weights and measures authorities, and on the interest which they will share with us in the consistent and sensible enforcement of the Bill, to ensure that the co-ordinating process works. But, I see no room for a similar co-ordinating process, and little likelihood that it would be effective, as regards private prosecutions. Let us think for a moment of the circumstances in which such a prosecution might be brought. It will, I think, be rarely, if ever, brought by an individual; it is not easy or cheap to mount this kind of case. It is more likely to be launched by an association of retailers or of manufacturers, perhaps even by an individual manufacturer. The motive will be the repression of what they regard as a competitor's unfair practice. And they are not likely to spend their own money on the prosecution unless and until they have established that a local weights and measures authority—now, as your Lordships will recall, to be charged with die duty of enforcing this legislation—is unwilling to take it on.
If in such circumstances a private body decides to go ahead with a prosecution, the question of avoiding multiple prosecutions is unlikely to arise; and I cannot believe that the body could be—or ought to be—dissuaded by the Board of Trade's views on the propriety of the prosecution or the likelihood of success. That is why I say that I see no useful purpose in the Amendment. Its side effect would be to delay the bringing of private prosecutions by 28 days. I cannot see that there would be any justification for this, and I hope that your Lordships will not accept the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am not certain that I agree with the noble Lord. I can only say that time alone will tell. His guess is as good as mine on this. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 agreed to.
7.0 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, after Clause 30, to insert the following new clause:
Innocent persons not liable for costs
". Where in any proceedings a person charged with an offence or with offences under this Act is acquitted of that offence or those offences, as the case may be, and is not convicted in the same proceedings of an offence under any other Act, he shall not be liable to pay costs."
The noble Lord said: It may be thought that this Amendment is unnecessary; that this is a matter which should be left to the discretion of the courts. The reason I put it down was because the Molony Committee in paragraph 630 of their Report made a special point of this. They dealt there with improvements that they would like to see made to Section 6 of the 1887 Act, and among them is one which they expressed in these terms:
"We do not accept that an innocent person should be liable to pay costs."
If that is their view, then the best thing seems to be to make it impossible for them to pay costs in those circumstances. The purpose of the Amendment is that if they are innocent they ought not to have to pay costs. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 30, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: I think this is one of the cases where we do not go along with Molony. Of course one has sympathy with the purpose of the Amendment. Art innocent man is prosecuted, and the prosecution fails. Why should he be ordered to pay costs? The courts already have a wide discretion in this matter, and they can, if they think fit, order the prosecution to pay the costs of the acquitted defendant. For this system to work sensibly it is essential that the discretion of the court should be unfettered. The fact that a defendant has been acquitted does not always mean, as I am sure the noble Lord realises, that he should not be ordered to pay the costs of the prosecution. Let me give an example. Suppose that X succeeds by invoking the defence that what he did was due to the act or default of another person. Until the trial he has refused to co-operate with the enforcing authority. If he had put the facts before them the by-passing procedure would have enabled the prosecution to go straight for the real offender.

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By his obstructiveness the defendant has wasted everybody's time and money. Why should he not be made to pay for it? I think it is best that the court should be left with this degree of discretion rather than to forbid the court to make him pay anything.
LORD CAWLEY: Is it suggested that the court can make an order for an innocent defendant to pay the prosecution's costs? I looked at the Costs of Criminal Cases Act, and it did not seem to me that that was a possibility.
LORD BROWN: I am so advised. A defendant may be acquitted, but he can be forced to pay costs. That is the way my advice runs. If there is doubt about it—and I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, is a learned man in the profession—I will have another look at it.
LORD CAWLEY: The term "pay costs" is somewhat ambiguous. To pay his own costs, certainly; but I should have thought that he could not be made to pay the prosecution's costs. There was a power under the Merchandise Marks Act, which was taken away in about 1911, for an order to be made as to costs which appeared just to the court. That certainly has now disappeared.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am sorry to hear that not only do the Government not agree with Molony, but they feel that what he said was ambiguous. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment by leave withdrawn.
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clause 32:
Trade marks containing trade descriptions.
32. The fact that a trade description is a trade mark, or part of a trade mark, within the meaning of the Trade Marks Act 1938 does not prevent it from being a false trade description when applied to any goods, except where the following conditions are satisfied, that is to say—

(a) that it could have been lawfully applied to the goods if this Act had not been passed; and

(b) that on the day this Act is passed the trade mark either is registered under the Trade Marks Act 1938 or is in use to indicate a connection in the course of trade
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between such goods and the proprietor of the trade mark; and

(c) that the trade mark as applied is used to indicate such a connection between the goods and the proprietor of the trade mark or a person registered under section 25 of the Trade Marks Act 1938 as a registered user of the trade mark; and

(d) that the person who is the proprietor of the trade mark is the same person as, or a successor in title of, the proprietor on the day this Act is passed.

7.4 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYmoved to leave out all words after "when applied to any goods". The noble Baroness said: The purpose of this Amendment is to gain some information from the Government. On looking at this Bill it seemed to me that the date of register of a trade mark should be quite irrelevant to the Bill. As I understand it, the clause as it stands gives blanket protection to the application of trade marks which were registered before the passing of the Bill. I think in its present form it means that only trade marks registered after the day the Bill is passed could be termed false trade descriptions if falsely or misleadingly applied. This situation exists obviously because the clause follows the form of exemption provided already under the existing Merchandise Marks Act 1953.
I do not know what my noble friend will say, but I believe that in the past the official view has justified this exemption so far as the consumer is concerned. I believe, furthermore, that their argument in the past has always followed the lines that, as the consumer is familiar with trade marks which have been in existence for many years, the consumer is unlikely to be misled by any false applications, even though these may technically offend against the Bill.
I do not like the Title of this Bill, the Consumer Protection Bill. But we have it, and it seems to me that it would be much more within the spirit of the Bill, in so far as trade marks are concerned, to remove this exemption altogether. I should have thought that nobody could dispute that the existence of this part of Clause 32 diminishes the extent to which the consumer is protected. If the Government felt able to accept the deletion as I suggest, from line 4 on page 18 down to line 20, we should be left with the position that all trade descriptions which are trade

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marks falsely or misleadingly applied would become liable to the provisions of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 4, leave out from ("goods") to end of line 20.—(Baroness Burton of Coventry.)
LORD BROWN: This clause, as the noble Baroness fully realises, has a good many historical factors. Perhaps I might begin by saying that marks which have a direct reference to the character or quality of the goods are not normally registrable, and Section (11) of the Trade Marks Act has prohibited the registration of marks which are likely to prove defective or confusing in use. This means that the marks which have been registered in recent years are unlikely to be of great danger to the consumer.
When the Merchandise Marks Act 1953 was prepared it was realised that many existing trade marks which were perfectly lawful under the 1887 Act might run into trouble. The sort of thing that people had in mind were trade marks consisting of invented words like "Kilkoff" or "Kilpain". Although these were only fanciful names, generally indicative of the purpose of the product and unlikely to be interpreted by most people as meaning anything more than that, it was just possible that a court might interpret them in the strict and literal sense. If, for instance, the cough mixture did not always kill the cough, a conviction might have resulted, which might have seriously damaged the trade mark. The contingency was remote, but there were some very valuable trade marks of this kind and it was considered that the slight risk that some few consumers might draw an unwarranted conclusion from the marks did not outweigh the marks' claim to protection. Hence the provisions of Section 1(4) of the 1953 Act, which would be continued by the present Clause 32.
The present Bill extends still further the definition of "trade description", and we cannot ignore the possibility that a trade mark whose use is perfectly lawful under the 1887 Act and under the stricter provisions of the 1953 Act might yet be held to be a false trade description within the meaning of the new Bill. We therefore consider that it is only reasonable to protect existing marks which are lawful under the existing law. But new marks
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—that is to say, marks which come into use or are registered after the passing of the Bill—should not, and will not, be given any special protection. I hope that in the light of what I have said, and the fact that the real danger of some of these trade marks proving misleading is very slight indeed, my noble friend will see fit to withdraw her Amendment.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I thank my noble friend for that information. I should like to study it. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 32 agreed to.
Clause 33 [Saving for civil rights:]
7.11 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved to add to the clause:
"() On the sale or in the contract for the sale of any goods to which a trade mark, or mark, or trade description has been applied, the vendor shall be deemed to warrant that the mark is a genuine trade mark and not forged or falsely applied, or that the trade description is not a false trade description within the meaning of this Act, unless the contrary is expressed in some writing signed by or on behalf of the vendor and delivered at the time of the sale or contract to and accepted by the vendee."
The noble Baroness said: I rise to move this Amendment. We have already had a discussion on this subject, before Christmas, when discussing the Bill on its first Committee stage. I am moving the Amendment because I want to record my Council's wish to retain a civil remedy in this Bill on the lines of Section 17 of the Merchandise Marks Act 1887. Towards the end of the previous Committee stage, your Lordships will remember, I had a rather inconclusive exchange with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, who I see has very kindly come here this evening to discuss the matter again. It was inconclusive because I had not given notice of the many legal and technical points involved. I apologise for that, and also because, not being a lawyer, the information I have here, which I gave at an earlier stage, is information which I received from the legal department of my Council. I therefore give it not so much from my own knowledge as from that of my advisers in the Council.
I believe, my Council believe, that it would be wrong to cut out of the Bill the existing civil remedies without retaining an equivalent remedy. The advantages of having this remedy spelt out may be largely procedural, in the sense that people will know where to find, and use, the clearly established course of action. I think this would be the great merit of retaining this clause, which came up from the original Merchandise Marks Act and which is of some importance.
This is the Consumer Protection Bill, which is to become an Act, and the ordinary consumer who has a grievance will expect to be able to get a remedy in a civil court. I hope very much that other lawyers in the Committee will support me in this matter, so that we may carry this discussion a little further and see whether or not it will be possible to have this clause in this new Bill, since it has been of value in previous Acts and has proved its value to the protection of consumers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 23, at end insert the said subsection.—(Baroness Elliot of Harwood.)
LORD CAWLEY: Before the noble and learned Lord replies, I shall be interested to know whether he considers that this new subsection is of any value at all. Has it any effect? Because I should have thought that this remedy was available at Common Law to a shopkeeper who had been sold these defective goods. I should be interested to hear whether that is so.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes. I cannot advise the Committee to accept this Amendment. It is fallacious to say that this is only continuing the existing law. The words are the same, but of course the subject matter is different. When we are now talking about misdescription this is something very much wider, because we have included, for example, forms of description. We have immensely extended that, and we have immensely extended the meaning of the words "applying a trade description", so the ambit which would be covered by this subsection would be entirely different from the ambit which the clause had previously covered.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, that this Amendment does not
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really carry the existing law, or at least ought not to carry the existing law, any further than it now applies. I can well understand a layman's thinking that a crime is the worst thing of all, and therefore if something is a crime there must be a claim for damages by anybody who has been injured by the crime. But it is not so, because the latter is a question of the civil law; and the object of a criminal Bill, as this is, because nothing else in the Bill deals with civil law at all, is entirely different from the object of our civil law. The object of our civil law is to do justice between two citizens where one, by some wrongful act, has injured the other; it provides that he has to pay damages to the other. The object of the criminal law is entirely different. It is to stop people from doing that; to act as a deterrent. In many fields of law the proposition that anybody who is injured by a crime must have a claim simply is not so. It depends what the civil law is. Of course, if by dangerous driving I kill somebody, obviously that is a criminal offence. If he leaves a wife and children who were dependent on him, they have a claim on me—an action for damages. But if there is a distant relative who is entirely dependent on him, he has no claim, because this is our civil law.
We have a civil law of libel and a criminal law of libel, but the two fields are different. The object of a civil law of libel is to enable a citizen who has had untrue imputations made against him to protect his reputation by recovering damages. The object of the criminal law of libel is to stop breaches of the peace. In any action of civil libel it is a complete answer always to say, "What I said was true and I will prove it". If you prove it that is a complete answer, because if the man concerned had a better reputation than he ought to have had that is his fault. But in criminal libel it is not enough to prove that what you said was true. You also have to prove it was in the public interest to say it. So in the wider field the proposition that if something is a crime, and someone is damaged by it, he is bound to have a cause of action is not so.
One of the difficulties about this subsection, apart altogether from contracting out, is that it is quite divorced from

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the rest of the Bill. It does not say that if you commit a criminal offence there has to be implied a warranty. There are clauses, which I imagine your Lordships have been discussing in Committee this afternoon, providing in effect that if a man who misdescribed goods was not to blame, it was not his fault, he was misled by somebody else, he will not be guilty. But this subsection as drafted contains no such provisions at all. It is implying a promise where no promise has been made. It does not allow of any exception, whether it was the trader's fault or not his fault.
The difficulty of confusing civil and criminal law is, I think, this. At the moment, if there is a contract—and warranty is only a form of contractual promise—if there is a contractual obligation which has been assumed, then, of course, the Sale of Goods Act applies. If, on the other hand, there is no contractual promise, then the Misrepresentation Act says that even though the representation did not form part of the contract you may still be liable in damages for making a representation, even if it is not made fraudulently, unless you prove that you had reasonable ground to believe, and did believe up to the time the contract was made, that the facts represented were true. So we added something to our civil law by saying that, even if what was said never became part of the contract and was not a contractual promise, you may still be liable for damages if it was a representation which you ought not to have made; but if you prove you believed it on reasonable grounds to be true, then you will not be liable.
Under this subsection there has to be deemed a misdescription or false trade description; that is to say, one has to pretend there was one, even though no promise was intended or made, and even if the misdescription was not the fault of the man who made it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, that it does not really add anything to the existing law, or if it does then I should say it ought not to, because the effect of it is to impute a warranty which nobody ever intended and which was not relied on in the circumstances, and a liability which, under our present law, would not exist.
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I think it right to say that the Misrepresentation Act is largely central to the argument. Either the warranty goes beyond the Sale of Goods Act or it does not. If it does not, then there is no need for it; if it does, then the liability it imposes can and must be comparable with that imposed by the law on misrepresentation as amended by the Misrepresentation Act. It is because we believe that it is inconsistent with that Act in imposing non-contractual liability on a blameless seller that we object to it, and it is on those grounds that I ask the Committee not to accept the Amendment.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for taking this matter himself and giving the Committee his advice. I bow entirely to his view that if it does nothing additional to protect the consumer then clearly it is not worth pursuing. I had thought that it would give some extra protection under civil law. The difference between the civil and the criminal law as explained by the Lord Chancellor is very clear. With these remarks, and thanking him for giving that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 33 agreed to.
Clauses 34 to 36 agreed to.
Clause 37:
Interpretation
37. The following provisions shall have effect, in addition to sections 2 to 6 of this Act, with respect to expressions used in this Act, that is to say,—
"advertisement" includes a catalogue, a circular and a price list: and
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in the definition of "advertisement", to leave out "and a price list" and to insert instead:
"a price list and any other form of literature which is circulated in the course of trade or business and amounts to an invitation to make an offer."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to clear up an ambiguity in the interpretation of the word "advertisement". In particular the purpose is to deal with the word "circular". As it stands, the clause

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appears to mean that any catalogue, circular or price list is to be treated as an advertisement. No doubt the object is to ensure that catalogues, circulars and price lists are covered by Clause 5, since it seems doubtful whether, in terms of Clause 4, a trade description applied in a catalogue, circular or price list would otherwise be caught as the Bill is drafted.
The difficulty is that while catalogues issued in the course of a trade or business are advertisements, circulars are not necessarily so. The word "circular" is used in two senses: it may either be a printed or duplicated paper distributed at large, or it may be a letter addressed to a number of individuals in identical terms. The first is an advertisement and, like all advertisements, as the noble Lord said earlier, it does not constitute an offer though it may be an invitation to make an offer. The second may be either, but commonly it is an offer: it is a letter addressed to an individual, even though it is in identical terms. As to price lists, no one thinks that they are advertisements, so no particular harm is done if they are arbitrarily included in the catalogue of advertisements for the purposes of this Bill when it becomes an Act, provided it is made clear that it is only for the purposes of the Act. But since circulars may or may not be advertisements, confusion could result if they were all included.
The important word in the Amendment, therefore, is the word "offer". In other words, an advertisement will include only catalogues, circulars or price lists which are not offers but merely invitations to make an offer. It may be that much the same object would be achieved by inserting the words "for the purposes of this Act". The trouble is that to treat all circulars as advertisements is a bad precedent, even if it is made clear that it is only for the purposes of this Act. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 34, leave out ("and a price list") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BROWN: It is late, and if the noble Lord will accept it I will give him a very short comment on this Amendment. He has expressed fears that the
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definition of "advertisement" in Clause 37 would apply not only for the purposes of the Bill but for all purposes. I can assure the noble Lord that it is not our intention that the definition should apply for purposes other than those of the Bill; nor, on my understanding of the clause as drafted, does it do so. However, in view of the doubts expressed I am prepared to put down an Amendment at a later stage which will put the matter beyond doubt.
LORD AIREDALE: I hope the Government Amendment which follows this one will not use the word "literature". I receive a good deal of informative matter circulated in the course of trade or business. It is hardly ever what I would describe as "literature". I should have thought one might use the expression "descriptive matter" instead of "literature".
LORD DRUMALBYN: Merely because the noble Lord used the word "literature" I do not think it will necessarily appear in whatever is produced by the Department. But I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brown, for saying that he will put down an Amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.26 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI moved, in the definition of "advertisement", after "list" to insert:
"but does not include any Press editorial content".
The noble Lord said: When we discussed Clause 9 I raised the question of editorial comment in newspapers and magazines. As the Committee are aware, such comment now fulfils a wide service and deals with a great range of consumer goods. It goes into them in considerable detail, often giving the name of the stockist, the price and so on. I asked my noble friend the Minister for an assurance that when the Board of Trade, under Clause 9, seek to require certain information to be given in advertisements this would not include the editorial comment, and my noble friend was good enough to say:
"We have no intention whatever of imposing these orders on newspapers' editorial comment".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18/12/67, col. 1346.]
We are legislating for a great many years and we are all mortal. No doubt

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in several years' time those of us who have discussed the Bill, and people in the Department, will have passed on, and if there is any question in the future of what powers the Board of Trade can or cannot take, people will refer to the Bill. Obviously they will not refer to the bound copies of Hansard relating to the very long discussions we have had, and the very long discussions which no doubt the other place will have, and the very long discussions we shall no doubt have again when the Bill is returned to us. Therefore I submit that the place where this information should be put is in the Bill. That is the reason why I venture to put forward this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 35, after ("list") insert ("but does not include any Press editorial content").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I have not a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the date mentioned by the noble Lord, but if the noble Lord, Lord Brown, said that there was no intention to make an order under Clause 9 in relation to editorial comment in the Press then the presumption must be that editorial comment is an advertisement, because under Clause 9 the Board of Trade has power to make an order only in relation to an advertisement.
I know that this question of whether editorial comment is an "advertisement" or not is a sore subject. We had it on the Bill in connection with "pirate" radios, and it caused an everlasting amount of trouble there and took quite a bit of amendment before it was eventually established on the narrow basis intended. I hope that it may be possible in this Bill to do it again, because I know that there are legitimate fears among the Press, particularly on this subject, which is dealt with in great detail in newspapers on some occasions, that their power to say what they want within the proper limits of reporting and journalism shall not be fettered by having their comments turned into advertisements. Everybody knows that the Government do not intend to do it, but when we have these restrictions put into Bills I think that, if it is possible, the term "advertisement" ought to be defined on each occasion in the way which is apt for the subject matter with which the Bill deals. It
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has been done before, and I think it can be done again, if there is any danger of Clause 9 turning out to relate to these matters, whether or not the Board of Trade will take power to use Clause 9 in relation to that sort of comment.
LORD BROWN: Let us get the situation clear. Bona fide editorial comment in a newspaper or periodical is not an "advertisement". This, I suggest, is perfectly clear as the Bill is at present drafted, and there is no need to say so expressly. However, an advertisement may be dressed up as editorial comment. For example, where a large store takes a page in a national newspaper and publishes what at first sight appears to be a factual article about the shop and its wares, or where a manufacturing company regularly publishes a magazine which includes articles describing the merits of its products. These are advertisements and should, I suggest, be treated in the Bill as such.
The question of the extent to which the provisions of the Bill may apply to descriptions used in editorial matter was debated at some length in relation to Clause 1 on an earlier occasion. I said then that there might be cases in which the journalist who made it his business to describe goods could be liable to prosecution under the Bill and that I saw no reason to protect such a person from such prosecution. There may be some among your Lordships who wonder that, notwithstanding those remarks. I stand before you safe and sound to-day. The gentlemen of the Press have been very forbearing: they have not torn me limb from limb. They have not so much as gently rebuked me.
None the less, we have been giving further thought to this matter in the light of our debate on December 18, and on reflection I have come to the conclusion that the balance of advantage lies in expressly excluding bona fide editorial comment from the scope of the Bill, rather than preserving the somewhat uncertain position in which, in a limited range of circumstances, a newspaper proprietor or journalist might be held to have applied trade descriptions to goods in the course of a descriptive article. This is not, of course, to say that we are encouraging newspapers to print sloppy and inaccurate descriptions of goods. On the contrary. We have quite enough of that

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in relation to reporting what people have said, without widening the scope. But it is on the grounds I have indicated that we are giving journalists some extra licence. Emotionally, I am against it though logically one has to accept the fact that it is a good thing to remove these journalists from the "hot seat" so to speak.
On second thoughts, I can see that this Bill is not the right vehicle for dealing with this sort of thing. This is a Bill to deal with misleading practices by traders and those who work with them in the promotion of their wares, and it would be quite wrong to start extending it in a vain attempt to make all men truthful and honest. I wish that we could make all the Press truthful and honest. So far as any question of journalistic malpractice arises, I think we should do better to leave its restraint to the industry's own machinery.
In these circumstances, we propose to put forward an Amendment at a later stage which would have the effect of taking bona fide editorial matter—that is, matter which does not amount to an advertisement—right outside the Bill. A provision to this effect may not be simple to devise, and I should not like to promise that it will be possible to have it ready by Report stage. But we will do our best. An Amendment on these lines would put it beyond all doubt that disinterested editorial comment could not be regarded as an "advertisement" under the Bill, but it would not affect advertisements disguised as editorial matter, which I do not think anyone would suggest ought to be exempted. In the light of this proposal, I hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I say, in view of the discussion we had on the last occasion, that I am extremely glad the noble Lord has said what he has just said. I am sure this is the right line. If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, I think his Amendment goes too far by taking out "any" Press editorial content. Such comment can, in fact, be disguised advertising, and the adoption of the word "any" would cover disguised advertising that was Press editorial content. This is the problem which the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has
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to solve in drafting the Amendment he has promised, but I am very glad that he has promised it.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Brown for what he has said. This is a very complicated subject, but I am most grateful to the Government for considering this matter and for promising an Amendment at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.37 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved after "list" to insert:
"but does not include any label printed on or affixed to goods or printed on or affixed to any wrapper on container, in so far as indications and statements set out in any such label relate to the goods."
The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment which I put down on the last occasion and it was found to be defective. I hope that this Amendment meets with the approval of the Government. On the last occasion the noble Lord pointed out that labels might be advertisements if they carried advertisements for goods other than the goods which they surrounded. This Amendment is intended to avoid that pitfall, and I hope it will be acceptable to the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 35, after ("list") insert the said word.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I very much hope that the Government will not accept this Amendment. I wondered why the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, had put it down, because in thinking about it it seemed to me at first sight that I could recall actual prosecutions where labels of the type mentioned in the Amendment had been very material points of evidence. I apologise to the Committee for referring once again to the Retail Trading Standards Association, but I have worked with them for some 17 years, and I have been in both Houses, and I have the greatest respect for their care for reputable trading and for the consumers. I asked about this particular Amendment, and the Association told me that, even without thinking, they could recall immediately some six cases where a very material part of the evidence had been labels such as those mentioned in the Amendment. I need only

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add that the R.T.S.A. won every one of the six cases to which I am referring. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Brown, will either reject this Amendment or, if he is disposed to accept it, will perhaps think again before the next stage, because I believe it could weaken many strong cases which actually come before the courts.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: With great respect, the noble Baroness is, I think, talking about something quite different. There is no suggestion that the label should not be shown to be a part of any false trade description or be relevant to the application of it. All this Amendment says is that the label is not an advertisement unless it is advertising something other than what is inside the packet or bottle on which the label is. Nobody is taking away the label as part of the evidence for the existence of a false trade description. The Amendment is saying that it is not an advertisement, and I should not have thought the noble Baroness would object to that.
LORD BROWN: On the face of it there is nothing unfortunate about this Amendment but it is really unnecessary. It is clear that if the label confines its comments to the goods it is not an advertisement. It is equally clear that if it does not do so but refers to something else it is an advertisement. If one accepts this Amendment in all its lack of necessity, there is the danger at some point that somebody is going to wonder just why it was introduced and try to make something of it in another context altogether. It is one of those arguments that sounds specious, I know, but in point of fact it is always a pity to include a matter unnecessarily, because people wonder why it was not included in some way elsewhere. We have no objection really to the contents of the Amendment, as distinct from the fact that it is unnecessary and I think would be seen to be unnecessary at a later stage when the Act was being interpreted in the courts.
LORD DRUMALBYN: If the noble Lord has received that legal advice, I, for my part, am quite happy with it. As he said earlier, we certainly do not want to add words unnecessarily, and in view of his complete assurance on this
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matter I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.41 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 37 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD BROWN: I wonder whether I may just add a word here, because I have assured the House on previous occasions that we would make every endeavour to draft an Amendment concerning market research for presentation to the House before the Third Reading of the Bill. I repeat that assurance. I can tell your Lordships that we are making progress in this matter, We have had some very helpful advice from experts in this field, as a result of which we are now clear what sort of things and in what circum stances an exemption should appropriately cover. If, as I hope, we encounter no difficulty in translating these principles into statutory language I shall be able to table an Amendment in the near future.
Clause 37 agreed to.
Clauses 38 and 39 agreed to.
Clause 40 [Continuation for three years, of Orders in Council requiring indication of origin]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved, in subsection (1)(a), to leave out from "1926"to"to" and insert:
"or the prohibition on the importation of any goods required by such an Order".
The noble Lord said: When we last discussed this clause, the noble Lady, Baroness Plummer, moved an Amendment to delete the provision in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) which would cancel any requirement contained in Orders in Council made under the Merchandise Marks Act 1926 that goods should bear an indication of origin at the time of importation. Her purpose was to ensure that all these Orders should be maintained in their present form for the rest of their limited life.
I accepted at the time that there was a good deal in the arguments put forward by the noble Lady, and I undertook to prepare an Amendment which would achieve her purpose and would deal with consequential points concerning enforcement. The present Amendment covers both these matters. First of all it would

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do what the noble Lady proposed last time; that is to say, it would eliminate the exception at the end of subsection (1)(a), so that for three years the repeals made by the Bill would not affect in any way any Order in Council made under the 1926 Act. Secondly, it would provide that for three years the repeals would not affect the prohibition on the importation of any goods required by such an Order to bear an indication of origin at the time of importation. This provision has to be included for technical reasons: its effect is to enable the Customs to enforce any prohibition on the importation of goods which fail to comply with an Order.
I hope that your Lordships will agree that there are good reasons for accepting this Amendment. The main point is, I feel, that there might not in all cases be enough time before the Bill comes into force to work out new arrangements to replace the present ones which are geared to a requirement that the goods concerned should be marked at the time when they are imported. For this reason, we have accepted, on reflection, that it would be wise to allow all the requirements of the old Orders in Council to continue during the transitional period. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 18, leave out from ("1926") to ("to") in line 19 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Brown.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: Do I understand that in the intervening period there will be consultations with the various bodies concerned as to whether these Orders that will now remain in force will continue to remain in force later?
LORD BROWN: That is so. There is power in this Bill for the Board of Trade to withdraw these Orders if that seems expedient in the light of the practices in the industry.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 41 [Short title and commencement:]
7.42 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE LORD AIREDALE moved to leave out "Consumer Protection" and insert
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"Trade Descriptions". The noble Lord said: I think I can take this Amendment quite shortly, because I appreciate that there was a debate on it on the earlier occasion when, unfortunately, I was not able to be present. But there was one point which I should have liked to put, which of course I was not able to put, but which I should like to put quite shortly now. I think that all of us who object to the title "Consumer Protection" do so because it is so wide. It does not describe what the Bill is about, and the purpose of a Short Title surely is to describe what a Bill is about.
I can foresee the possibility that one day all the consumer protection legislation will be consolidated into perhaps a single Act of Parliament: that is to say, the Weights and Measures Acts, the Food and Drugs Acts, this Act, and so on. For that consolidated measure, "Consumer Protection" might be a good Short Title. But let us, in the meantime, proceed upon the lines that we have proceeded on up till now. Nobody has to think twice what the Weights and Measures Acts are about. Nobody has to think twice what the Food and Drugs Acts are about. If we call this the "Trade Descriptions Act", nobody will have to think twice what this Bill is about. But if it is called the "Consumer Protection Act", then an ordinary person coming upon it will have to read it in order to discover what it is about, and I do not think we want that.
It has been murmured to me that this title "Consumer Protection" is perhaps a vote-catching title. I really do not think I can believe this. I do not believe that the noble Lord would stand for such a thing. It would be a sad day if the Short Titles of Acts of Parliament were brought into Party politics and a competition were started between the rival Parties to see who could produce a mass vote-catching Short Title to a Statute. So I do not believe that. But, for the reasons that I have just advanced, which I should like to add to the admirable reasons that were advanced on the former occasion, I beg to move that the Short Title be changed from "Consumer Protection" to "Trade Descriptions". I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 23, leave out ("Consumer Protection") and insert ("Trade Descriptions").—(Lord Airedale.)
BARONESS GAITSKELL: May I say how much I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, about this? When you call this Bill the "Trade Descriptions Bill" it conveys absolutely nothing to the ordinary person; indeed, it conveys absolutely nothing to me, either. But if you say that it is the "Consumer Protection Bill", then to the person who is buying things it really conveys what it means. After all, that is the object of the Bill, and it seems to me quite a good thing to have the object of the Bill as the name of the Bill.
LORD DRUMALBYN: It can be said, on the other hand, that since this Bill is mainly about trade descriptions it would be rather a good idea if those who are to be protected should know what it is all about; and the best way of getting the consumers and others who are protected, including retailers and others, to know what the Bill is about is to give it the name of what it is all about—that is, trade descriptions. Not all of it is about trade descriptions, but Clauses 1 to 6 are, and a great deal of the application of it will fall into trade descriptions.
I think that this is a narrowly balanced argument. But I take a rather different attitude towards it. I think that the success of this Bill will depend upon its being seen as a Bill that is fair to all sides. If it were to be regarded as a biased Bill in one particular direction, either of the trade on the one hand, or of the consumer on the other, then I think it would be bound to run into unnecessary difficulties. I confess that this is why I do not particularly like the term "consumer protection", which is not really apt because the Bill protects others besides consumers. It protects traders as well as consumers, and it is as much in the interests of honest traders that there should be fair trading as it is in the interests of the consumers. So for my part I do not particularly like this Title. I think that "Trade Descriptions Bill" is a better Title, but I honestly doubt whether the Committee will be wise to reach a decision on this particular point at this time of night. However, I shall be interested to hear what the noble Lord is going to say about it. Perhaps he is going to accept the Amendment.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Before my noble friend replies, I too would not necessarily wish to
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change the Title tonight, but I have strong reservations about it. In the Bill which lapsed before this one we had one Title, and when the present Bill came before us it was possible to change the Title to what is at present suggested. I remember that on the Second Reading of this Bill I asked my noble friend why the Title had been changed, but he had a great deal to reply to and I did not get an answer to my question.
The reason why I do not like the title Consumer Protection Bill is that it is quite out of date. I think we left the era—at least I hoped we had—of consumer protection a long time ago. I think that there has been education on both sides. To develop what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said, I feel that in the past one of the difficulties in consumer work has been that the shopper has sat on one side of the fence and industry has sat on the other. I think that was necessary, but it is in the past. I do not know that I am ready for the title "Trade Descriptions", but I definitely do not like "Consumer Protection". I should be most happy if my noble friend Lord Brown said that he would look at this matter again, if he is able to say such a thing at this juncture, because I do not think that in the year 1968 we should be talking about consumer protection.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I see nothing wrong with this being called the "Consumer Protection Bill". I understand the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. I realise that we do not want to protect only consumers, because some consumers can be very difficult and tiresome, and that we sometimes want to protect the trade. But I do not think that it is a "Trade Descriptions" Bill as such. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, that if it were called the "Trade Descriptions Bill" the ordinary public would not know what was meant. They would not associate themselves with "trade descriptions". They would associate "trade descriptions" with the trade and the way the goods are described in the trade. They would not think about the way in which they themselves were affected by the goods so described. I hope that the Title "Consumer Protection Bill" will be left as it is. I do not mind if something is added to it.

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though I cannot at the moment think of anything. I think that the present Title is simple and straightforward. We know what we are talking about, as do the British public, and I feel that it would be a pity to change the Title now. I do not agree with Lord Airedale's Amendment, and if this matter is pressed to a Division I shall vote against the Amendment.
LORD STRABOLGI: Before my noble friend replies—
LORD BROWN: I am sure noble Lords will excuse me, but I feel that we could go on for a very long time on this matter of description. I find myself in a position of some embarrassment. I have already expressed my support for the Title which has been proposed in the Amendment, and I will stick to that. But the Government are not prepared to accept the Amendment to alter the Title. We are faced with the position that we shall either have to divide, which would be a pity at this late hour, or else allow the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment in the knowledge that no doubt this point will be debated in another place. I must leave it to your Lordships to decide which way you want to go about this. I have no objection to a Division, but it may be that noble Lords will not wish to have one at this late hour. I am very sorry, but I cannot be accommodating on this matter. I do not want to go into all the reasons, but I am unable to take my colleagues with me and must remain inelastic on this matter.
LORD STRABOLGI: Before my noble friend sits down, may I say what I was going to say before, which is that I agree very much with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, by my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, and also by the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood. This has been a very amicable Committee, and a constructive one, and I would point out that we have not had a single Division on this Bill, unlike the previous Bill. I do not know whether we could effect a compromise and whether the Government would agree to consider tabling an Amendment of their own at a later stage whereby everybody would be satisfied, keeping the words "Consumer Protection", but
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also including the words "Trade Descriptions". In that way we would arrive at the Consumer Protection (Trade Descriptions) Bill, which is rather like the Title of the previous Bill, except that it is shorter by one word. I suggest that my noble friend might consider something like that perhaps for a later stage of the Bill so that we might arrive at some sort of compromise.
LORD AIREDALE: Far be it from me to break the record which we have so far achieved, of having got through the whole of this Committee Stage without having had a single Division. I would not wish to precipitate one on this last Amendment, but I cannot prevent members of the Committee from forcing it upon me, because when I seek to withdraw the Amendment I may not be allowed to do so. I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, that, if she will not support the Title "Trade Descriptions Bill", would she perhaps support "Fair Trading Bill"? I said that I would certainly settle for that when it was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. I thought that the title "Fair Trading Bill" was an excellent alternative, since it had a nice sound about it. I throw that suggestion back into the arena. I do not know why the Minister thought there might be a Division in the House of Commons about this. I should have thought that we might have a Division on the Report stage in this House, though we might be able to preserve our record throughout the present Bill without any Divisions at all. For the time being I will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported, with Amendments.

MAURITIUS INDEPENDENCE BILL
Brought from Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned at eight o'clock.