Sitting of 4 May 1967

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS (NO. 2) BILL
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]
  Bill read the Third time and passed.

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) (NO. 2) BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    Service Overseas (Graduate Volunteers)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Overseas Development how many graduate volunteers served overseas in 1966–67; how many are expected so to serve in the current financial year; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Overseas Development (Mr. Arthur Bottomley): Graduate volunteers serve, not for a financial year but for the academic year beginning in September. In the year 1966–67, 1,240 graduated qualified volunteers are serving overseas. For the academic year 1967–68 recruiting is proceeding with a target figure of 1,300.
    Mr. Longden: I thank the Minister for that reply but I think that the number is rather fewer than was expected for this year. Is the shortfall due to lack of funds? If so, how many volunteers are the Government prepared to finance? Or is it due to lack of volunteers, in which case cannot more be done to recruit them?
    Mr. Bottomley: I think that it is a combination of all factors. We welcome as many recruits as we can get, consistent with our ability to pay.

    Educational Aid
    Mr. Molloyasked the Minister of Overseas Development what form educational aid to developing countries takes; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Overseas Development (Mr. Albert E. Oram): Educational aid to developing countries comprises grants under Colonial Development and Welfare schemes and Commonwealth grants, the supply of teachers, the training of overseas personnel in Britain, provision of equipment, the low priced books scheme and schemes of Commonwealth education co-operation. Aid under these heads amounts to about £18 million a year. For more details my hon. Friend should see our recent White Paper, Cmnd. 3180.
    Mr. Molloy: I appreciate my hon. Friend's Answer and realise how important it is, but can he say whether he intends to make any announcement at the next Commonwealth Educational Conference as to what further aid he might be giving in this connection?
    Mr. Oram: The fourth Commonwealth Educational Conference is due to be held in Lagos in November this year, and that will provide an opportunity for consultation on these matters with other Commonwealth countries. We are at the moment discussing within the Ministry what form Britain's future help in this important sphere can take.

    Intermediate Technology
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Overseas Development, in view of the leading part played by British initiative in spreading ideas on the rôle of intermediate technology in the improvement of agriculture and rural living standards in the developing countries, what help he plans to give to the Intermediate Technology Development Group.
    Mr. Bottomley: I agree that the Intermediate Technology Development Group is doing useful work.
    Members of the Ministry of Overseas Development headquarters staff and

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    special units attend its meetings and collaborate in its activities. I hope that it will be able to meet its expenses without recourse to financial assistance from the Government.
    Sir G. Sinclair: Since Britain has achieved a world "first" in intermediate technology, will not the Minister translate his good will and interest into practical assistance by looking again at the application for a grant from this Group?
    Mr. Bottomley: I think that this kind of activity is better carried on by a non-official organisation, unhampered by official restrictions on the use of its money or by Ministerial accountability for its actions
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will initiate a study to see what further contribution Great Britain can make to improving agricultural production and rural standards of living in the developing countries by assisting in the wider application of those ranges of intermediate technology which the United Kingdom has pioneered in many parts of the world.
    Mr. Bottomley: I accept the need to promote the use of these kinds of technology. We are already active in this field. We are closely in touch with the Intermediate Technology Development Group and are always receptive to its ideas.
    Sir G. Sinclair: As the Minister has been very coy about promising any financial assistance, may I ask him to give the House some extra assurance that he intends to give practical help by granting a high priority to the work of this Group, which is of paramount importance in increasing agricultural productivity, the most important form of econmic activity for the developing countries?
    Mr. Bottomley: I share the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm, and can assure him that if the Group itself brings anything to my attention I will gladly see that it is looked into.

    Family Planning
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Overseas Development what sum has now been allocated by Her Majesty's Government to the United Nations and
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    its agencies for the development of family planning.
    Mr. Oram: We are a main contributor to the United Nations and Specialised Agencies, but it is not customary to earmark contributions for a specific purpose. We have for some time beein concerned to encourage the United Nations to play a more active rôle in the development of family planning, and for that reason welcomed the General Assembly's resolution last December approving a comprehensive and expanded U.N. programme in this field.
    Mrs. Short: My hon. Friend has not really answered the Question, has he? Is he aware that according to recent Press reports the princely sum of £50,000 has been allocated by his Department? Is that report right? If it is, does he not think it a disgraceful amount for a developed country like ours to give towards the solution of the world population explosion, which is one of our immediate problems? Will he look at the matter again?
    Mr. Oram: With respect, in quoting the figure of £50,000 my hon. Friend is confusing two matters. Her Question related to an allocation to the United Nations and I replied to that in my original Answer. The £50,000 relates to the grant we are making over the next five years to the International Planned Parenthood Federation, a voluntary body whose work we are anxious to encourage as, I am sure, is my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Brooks: Does my hon. Friend welcome the recent Papal Encyclical which has given great hope and encouragement to all those who regard family planning as a legitimate and necessary method of combating poverty in the underdeveloped world? In the right of this, will the Government have no inhibitions about accelertaing aid in this respect?
    Mr. Oram: In international conferences of one kind and another we have indicated our willingness to give support to family planning measures. If we had inhibitions, I think we are leaving them behind us.

    Gibraltar
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the total aid which will be given to Gibraltar in

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    the year 1967; and how this money will be spent.
    Mr. Bottomley: We expect to disburse about £900,000 during the financial year 1967–68. Of this, about £600,000 has been allocated to housing, school building, tourist development and technical assistance projects; and £100,000 towards additional expenses of administration. The allocation of the balance is still under discussion.
    Mr. Wall: Is the Minister satisfied that the proposed aid is approximately the amount that can be absorbed by Gibraltar and that it will maintain, again approximately, the pre-blockade standard of living of Gibraltarians?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, but if the Gibraltar authorities wanted to come forward with other propositions we would of course give them sympathetic consideration.

    Malta (Employment)
    Sir F. Bennettasked the Minister of Overseas Development what estimate he has made of the level of employment which will be reached in Malta as a result of the aid given to that country in the financial year 1967–68.
    Mr. Bottomley: British aid is allocated to the heads of expenditure in Malta's Development Plan for 1964–69. To select any period in that five years and to forecast the level of employment directly attributable to British aid in that period would be difficult and could be misleading.
    Sir F. Bennett: The Minister will recall that his colleague said in a recent debate that natural wastage would absorb most, if not all, of the 300 cuts in the first year and therefore no increase in unemployment need be expected above the figure of 8 per cent. Can he reaffirm that position as it stands today?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, the figures reflect an improvement. At the end of 1965 the number seeking employment was 7,859 and at the end of 1966 that number had fallen to 6,504.

    India and Pakistan
    Sir F. Bennettasked the Minister of Overseas Development how much aid will be given to India and Pakistan,
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    respectively, in the financial year 1967–68; and in what form and on what terms this aid will be given.
    Mr. Bottomley: Aid to India and Pakistan for 1967–68 is subject to negotiations and consultations with their Governments and in the World Bank Consortium. I cannot at this stage forecast how much we shall pledge or disburse to these countries in total.
    British financial aid to India and Pakistan is currently in the form of interest free loans for 25 years with a seven-year grace period before repayments begin.
    Sir F. Bennett: The Minister will not need reminding that aid is to be cut by at least £20 million. Can he say how much, if any, of that will fall on India and Pakistan, taking into account the near-famine conditions in large areas of the first, and that the second, Pakistan, is in a critical position of pre-take-off to a very much better economic situation than has obtained?
    Mr. Bottomley: There was a recent meeting of the Consortium in Paris, as the hon. Member will know, and there Britain took the lead which has been acknowledged. We cannot say exactly where the cuts will fall because programmes for the future are not yet complete.
    Mr. John Lee: Does not my right hon. Friend realise the urgency of this matter and that, of all the countries in the Commonwealth, India is in the most serious position? It would be awful if the mutual aid which we can give were cut still further.
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, this is recognised. That is why India receives more aid than any other country.

    United Arab Republic
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of Overseas Development what aid has been granted to the United Arab Republic in 1965, 1966 and the first quarter of 1967, respectively, and for what purposes; to what extent this aid was related to Egyptian purchase of British goods; and what further aid the Government intend to provide.
    Mr. Bottomley: Her Majesty's Government have provided no new financial aid

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    to the United Arab Republic in 1965, 1966 and the first quarter of 1967.
    Disbursements of £460,000 in 1965 and £200,000 in 1966 were made in fulfilment of a credit agreement entered into in 1962 under Section 3 of the Export Guarantees Act. This was wholly tied to the purchase of British goods. All disbursements under this agreement have now been made.
    My Ministry has no plans at present to give any further financial aid to the U.A.R.

    Pakistan (United Kingdom Pensioners)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Minister of Overseas Development what steps he is taking to relieve the hardship suffered by United Kingdom citizens in receipt of pensions from the Pakistan Government where these pensions have been substantially reduced as a result of the devaluation of the Indian Rupee.
    Mr. Oram: We are making urgent representations to the Pakistan Government for the reinstatement of these pensions at their former value.
    Mr. Allason: Is not the difficulty arising from the payment by India at their devalued rupee to Pakistan, whereas they pay at the old value if it is a pension coming directly to this country? Therefore, it is a problem rather between India and Pakistan than directly the responsibility of Pakistan. Has not India honourably met the difficulties of revaluation in almost every other case? Would not the Government make urgent representations to India about this and consider making——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions should be reasonably brief.
    Mr. Oram: The hon. Member has described the origin of this difficulty, but no difficulties have persisted in the case of pensions for which the Indian Government are responsible. We believe there is a misunderstanding in respect of the Pakistan difficulty and it is on this that we are making urgent representations and are hopeful for a solution.

    Zambia
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the total of aid to Zambia in the
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    present financial year, excluding defence aid and contingency planning assistance.
    Mr. Bottomley: Total expenditure, with the exceptions mentioned, is expected to amount to about £3,800,000.
    Mr. Digby: Is this expenditure subject to any conditions as to buying in the United Kingdom? Does this mean that our subventions at the moment through Zambia are of the order of £20 million taking all three categories into account?
    Mr. Bottomley: In subventions generally for which my aid Ministry is responsible the major item is about £2,500,000 towards the cost of expatriate staff. On the other point the Commonwealth Office would, I am sure, be prepared to give an answer to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: In considering the matter of aid to Zambia, will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind first the very noticeable tendency of the Zambian authorities to turn elsewhere for their purchases and, secondly, that British subjects are being detained without trial and in very doubtful circumstances indeed?
    Mr. Bottomley: That, again, I suggest is a matter for the Commonwealth Secretary.

    Overseas Aid
    Mr. David Steelasked the Minister of Overseas Development how much of the £100 million saving on overseas defence and aid, announced in the Budget, represents savings in overseas aid.
    Mr. Bottomley: £20 million, Sir.
    Mr. Steel: Could the right hon. Gentleman represent to his right hon. Friend that in future we ought to know what these figures are, because a great many of us differentiate strongly between cuts in defence aid expenditure which are desirable and cuts in overseas aid expenditure which are undesirable?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, but it is worth recognising that the cuts amount to £100 million but the £20 million cut in my Department proportionately is less than the cut in defence expenditure.
    Mr. Maudling: How much use is the right hon. Gentleman making of the concept of aid from surplus capacity which

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    was developed by the previous Administration and which could be peculiarly appropriate at present?
    Mr. Bottomley: If by that the right hon. Gentleman means that to that extent there is a run-down in defence orders and there may be facilities for use in economic and social development, that is a matter which has always been considered.
    Mr. Maudling: My point was aid from surplus capacity which in economic terms is easier to give than other aid.
    Mr. Bottomley: If the right hon. Gentleman means technical assistance, yes, that is given.
    Mr. Dobson: Is it the intention to increase overseas aid as soon as possible?
    Mr. Bottomley: We would hope so consistent with our economic position improving.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Overseas Development what was the amount of overseas aid distributed by Great Britain in each of the calendar years 1964, 1965 and 1966; and what estimate he has made of the amount which will be disbursed in 1967.
    Mr. Bottomley: Gross official aid disbursements in 1964, 1965 and 1966 were £193 million, £196 million and £209 million respectively. A provisional estimate for 1967 is about £205 million.
    Mr. Taylor: Would the Minister agree that many of the nations receiving this aid subject British investments to quite unreasonable taxation? Before agreeing the amounts for future years, would the right hon. Gentleman consider discussing with these nations an acceptable code of commercial conduct?
    Mr. Bottomley: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the aid programme is properly managed and we ensure that all British interests are safeguarded.
    Mr. Maudling: Is not that beside the point? Surely the point is that people who are receiving aid should be made to realise that to welcome incoming capital on proper terms adds to the efficacy of the aid? Will not the Minister discuss this question with the countries concerned?
    Mr. Bottomley: This is a matter of which the Governments concerned are fully aware. It is for them to decide. This Question and Answer will certainly draw attention to the point.

    Nevis and Anguilla
    Dame Joan Vickersasked the Minister of Overseas Development how much of the aid allocated to St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla for the financial year 1967–68 will be spent in the islands of Nevis and Anguilla.
    Mr. Oram: British aid is made available to the State of St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla as a whole. It benefits all parts of the State and it is not possible to quantify the proportions received by each part.
    Dame Joan Vickers: Can the Minister say how much money is being allocated; and, if so, what projects does he expect it will be used on? Is he sure that the money is being fairly distributed between these three islands?
    Mr. Oram: The question of distribution, as my Answer indicated, is a matter for the Government of St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla. We cannot influence that. It is not possible to separate out the amounts allocated to each island. I am sure that the Premier of St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla is fully aware of the development needs of all parts of the three islands.

    Kenya (Resettlement Scheme)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will make a statement on the progress of the 400,000-acre resettlement scheme in Kenya.
    Mr. Oram: As the reply is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Wall: Is the Minister aware that the first valuations under this scheme have now been received and that, broadly speaking, they appear to be a minimum of 15 per cent. below the value expected on previous assessments? As the British taxpayer's money is involved, does the High Commissioner have a watching brief over the valuations arrived at by the Agricultural Development Corporation?
    Mr. Oram: This is a complicated matter, not easily dealt with by Question

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    and Answer. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the High Commission watches over this matter very carefully.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Bearing in mind the concern which used to be constantly expressed by hon. Members in regard to resettlement, does not the Minister agree that it has gone extremely well and that much of the tribute due should be paid to the Kenyan Government for making this possible?
    Mr. Oram: Yes. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that things are proceeding very satisfactorily.
    Following is the reply:
    As the hon. Member knows, this programme, which envisages the transfer of up to 100,000 acres a year for four years, is in three parts, i.e. land purchase by the Kenya Department of Settlement for low-density settlement; assistance to private purchasers through the Kenya Land Bank and the purchase of (or part-investment in) "transitional" farms by the Kenya Agricultural Development Corporation.
    Because of the urgent need to complete the purchase of land for settlement under the Million Acre Scheme, the Kenya Department of Settlement has not yet been able to make a start on the new programme of purchase for low-density settlement. The Land Bank, however, has allocated its share of the funds for the first year and it is expected that these will be fully utilised during the next two months.
    Under the Kenya Agricultural Development Corporation's programme of farm purchase enquiries of 46 potential vendors have produced 40 replies indicating a willingness to sell, subject to valuation. So far valuations have been completed and offers issued in 32 cases. Of these, 15, involving about 36,000 acres, have been accepted; eight have been refused or withdrawn while eight are still under negotiation or consideration by the vendors.

    Eastern Aden Protectorate
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Overseas Development what technical or other assistance is being given to the Eastern Aden protectorate.
    Mr. Bottomley: Technical assistance is given in the form of scholarships and training courses in the United Kingdom, and of the services from time to time of British experts and consultants. Other assistance includes the provision of British advisory staff and services, subsidies to the State Governments for administrative and other purposes, and Colonial Development and Welfare grants
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    which are made available to the High Commissioner for the economic and social development of the area.
    Mr. King: Would the Minister concede that the poverty and isolation of this area make the problem of Aden, which is already complex enough, more complex still? Would he therefore give additional priority and additional aid beyond that which he has already mentioned?
    Mr. Bottomley: No, I cannot say that I will give additional aid. Every sympathy is extended because of the considerations which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

    Rhodesia (Africans)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Overseas Development what steps he is taking in order to improve the feeding standards of the African peoples of Rhodesia.
    Mr. Bottomley: I regret that present circumstances do not permit such action.
    Mr. King: Is it not without precedent to impose hunger on an African population for whom in law we are still responsible and for whom the right hon. Gentleman has accepted responsibility? Have any civil servants threatened to resign on grounds of conscience in carrying out such horrible policies?
    Mr. Bottomley: If the hon. Gentleman will exert such authority as he has in Rhodesia to secure a return to legality, then we can give the help that is necessary.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Bearing in mind the United States sanctions against Rhodesia, is the Minister aware that recently a firm in America held a fashion parade in Salisbury of the latest American clothes? Does not the Minister think that the money involved in doing that would have been better spent on giving economic aid?
    Mr. Bottomley: I am sure that when the Rhodesians see all these delightful goods they will be running short of money in due course and will not be able to buy them.
    Mr. John Lee: Disregarding the sanctimonious undertones of this Question, is there not a point of substance

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    here? Do not we need to set a target date for the overthrow of this régime by sanctions, otherwise the African population will suffer?
    Mr. Bottomley: That, again, is a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs.

    Hong Kong
    Mr. A. Royleasked the Minister of Overseas Development how much financial aid he estimates will be given to Hong Kong during 1967–68; and what financial support, including the defence contribution, is made by the Colony to the United Kingdom Exchequer.
    Mr. Bottomley: It is expected that aid under all headings will amount to about £500,000 in 1967–68. The second part of the Question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs.
    Mr. Royle: Is the Secretary of State aware that the economy of Hong Kong is no burden physically on the United Kingdom Exchequer? As Hong Kong is unable to receive aid from international agencies, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that all the finance that is necessary is made available to the Colony for the airport extension, finance for which cannot be obtained from anywhere else, and which is vital to the future prosperity of the colony?
    Mr. Bottomley: It is for the Hong Kong Administration to say how it would like developments to take place. Within the limited funds available to my Department we give what help is possible.

    United Nations Funds (Contribution)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the latest United Nations estimate of the in come per capita for all its members, and its forecast of population increases; by how much he proposes to increase Great Britain's contribution to the United Nations funds for the aid of under developed countries; whether he is satisfied that this is adequate in view of their poverty and increasing population; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bottomley: The hon. Member will find the statistics which he has requested
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    in the World Bank Atlas of per capita Product and Population 1966, and in the United Nations World Population Prospects as assessed in 1963, copies of which are available in the library. The United Kingdom voluntary contributions for this purpose to the United Nations and its agencies increased from £15·6 million in 1964 to £19·7 million in 1966. These figures do not include the United Kingdom contributions to the budgets of the United Nations and its agencies.
    Sir C. Osborne: Surely there are more recent figures than those for 1963. Will the Minister try to get them for me? As India and Pakistan have a standard of life which is one-twentieth of ours, is not the amount we are giving them pathetically small—like crumbs from a rich man's table?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes; I think that we all share those sentiments. However, if we do not get our own economy right we cannot help ourselves and cannot help others. I obtained the 1963 figures from the United Nations document available. If there is an up-to-date document, perhaps the hon. Member and myself together, as a result of research, can obtain it. If I get it first, I will write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Wall: Is it not the fact that British contributions are second only to those of the United States?
    Sir C. Osborne: Still too small.

    Vietnam
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Minister of Overseas Development what civilian assistance sponsored by his Department will be given to the Government of South Vietnam in 1967–68.
    Mr. Bottomley: Present commitments foreshadow expenditure totalling about £155,000 in the current financial year. A senior member of my staff who was in Saigon 10 days ago returned yesterday and will be reporting to me on his discussions there.
    Mr. Goodhart: Is the Minister aware that the Foreign Secretary said at the recent meeting of the S.E.A.T.O. Foreign Ministers that we would be making a major contribution in civilian aid? How does the Minister equate that statement

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    with the niggardly sum he has announced?
    Mr. Bottomley: We are giving the aid which is required. There is the one hospital there and to the extent that we are able to help we are doing so.
    Mr. Maudling: The Minister said that we are giving the aid which is required. That cannot be true. Can he explain to the House the principles on which he determines how much aid to give?
    Mr. Bottomley: I have already explained that in the case of the hospital aid was required, and in that case we have given it.
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Minister of Overseas Development what plans he has for increasing British assistance to sick and injured children in Vietnam.
    Mr. Bottomley: We propose to consolidate and, if possible, expand our activities at the children's hospital in Saigon where the British team is now doing most useful work. Recurrent annual expenditure of about £130,000 makes this relatively a very costly project.
    We have built, equipped and staffed a pathological laboratory for the hospital and expect to send more equipment and drugs. Next winter, the team will, we hope, have an additional full-time paediatrician and will then consist of five doctors and six nurses.
    Mr. Goodhart: We all appreciate the fine work done by Dr. Evans and his team in Saigon, but does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that very many speeches are made in this country about child casualties in Vietnam, and it is rather shameful that we do not offer more practical assistance?
    Mr. Bottomley: We are offering the practical assistance that is wanted, as I have said already.
    Dr. David Kerr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this hospital, which is doing laudable work, fails to cater for the needs of children in many areas of Vietnam under the control of the National Liberation Front, and, further, is he aware that voluntary funds to the tune of more than £5,000 have been contributed by people in this country, through the Medical Aid Committee for Vietnam, to assist those children?
    Mr. Bottomley: I am sure that everyone would wish to do all possible to assist the children who are suffering.
    Mr. John Hall: Although the right hon. Gentleman may be right in saying that we are giving all we intend to give, is it not complete nonsense to say that we are giving all that is wanted?
    Mr. Bottomley: Of course, this is like everyone else—we all want more and more and more—but the requests that have been made of us, having in mind the present requirements, have been met.
    Mr. Rose: Would not the best assistance to the children of Vietnam be an effort on the part of Her Majesty's Government to stop the use of the terrible weapons which cause such terrible injuries, and does not my right hon. Friend realise that the assistance which we are giving will not go to most of the children who are suffering from napalm?

  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

    Scientific and Technological Manpower
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what action he is taking to improve the information available regionally on the present and potential demand for trained technical and technological staff.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. Peter Shore): Regional boards and councils are being provided with analyses of the 1961 census of population data covering scientific and technological manpower. Similar analyses of the 1966 sample census data will be produced.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: There is hardly any regional information available, not even information as to what firms in the region have posts available. Will my hon. Friend consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology to try to get something done in this matter?
    Mr. Shore: We are aware of deficiencies in the statistics regarding the regions, and we are in close contact with the Ministry of Labour and Ministry of Technology, doing our best to rectify this deficiency as soon as possible.
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether his studies in manpower budgeting include provision for the expansion of opportunities for trained technical and technological staff in development areas such as those in the northern region.
    Mr. Shore: Manpower budgeting studies relate to the likely supply and demand in all types of occupation. They take account of the regional pattern including the implications of the Government's policy of fostering the expansion of all types of employment in development areas.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: That does not fully answer my Question. Is my hon. Friend budgeting for an increase in this type of employment in the northern region? Is he aware that, for example, very few facilities are made available in the region even by new firms, because most of the design and development work is being done outside the region?
    Mr. Shore: Our first concern is to get employment of all kinds into the development areas, and this we are doing with all the instruments available to us under our development area policies. But we are trying, and will continue to try very hard, to get the balance of employment right as between the capital-intensive and labour-intensive industries in these regions.
    Dame Irene Ward: The time for trying has gone. Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is time for action, and it is action we want in the North-East, not constant smooth words which mean very little?
    Mr. Shore: The Government can claim some success in their regional and development area policies. In addition, as the House knows, further measures are being considered and are being discussed generally in the country.

    North Staffordshire (Redevelopment and Expansion)
    Mr. Ashleyasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will approve the West Midlands Economic Planning Council proposal for a sub-regional study of North Staffordshire to facilitate
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    early redevelopment and expansion of the area.
    Mr. Shore: This proposal is one of a number made by the West Midlands Economic Planning Council in its first Report, "Patterns of Growth", which is now under consideration by the Government.
    Mr. Ashley: Will my hon. Friend take it that we would like a definite answer to this proposal? There has been a good deal of prevarication by his Ministry, and, if he continues to disregard the recommendations of the Planning Council, this will cause great consternation in the area. Will he, therefore, try to give an early positive answer to this request?
    Mr. Shore: The Report to which my hon. Friend refers was published about a month ago, and it is part of a general study of the needs and potentialities of the West Midlands region. It covers a large number of proposals, and we are giving serious consideration to them all.
    Mr. Biffen: Will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that any further study of the North Staffordshire sub-regional area will not be used as a pretext for preventing the Ministry of Defence from exploiting the Swinnerton site, which has been hanging in abeyance for very many years?
    Mr. Shore: That is a different question, but I shall see whether I can give the hon. Gentleman an answer.

    Pricing, Reinvestment and Distribution Policies
    Mr. Ian Lloydasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (1) whether he will issue, for the general guidance of those responsible for decisions affecting pricing, reinvestment and distribution policies in the private sector, a precise definiton of the term "reasonable profit" and indicate whether the basis of such a definition is to be capital employed in the business in the economic sense of that term or some other concept;
    (2) whether he will issue, for the general guidance of those responsible for decisions affecting pricing, reinvestment and distribution policies in the private sector, a precise definition of the levels of risk for which particular levels of

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    profitability are to be an appropriate return on capital employed.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Frederick Lee): No, Sir. What may be a reasonable profit for a particular industry or enterprise will depend on the particular circumstances of that industry or enterprise, including the degree of risk involved in its operations.
    Mr. Lloyd: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the constant use of the word "reasonable" in this context imports an ethical criterion which is wholly inappropriate, suggesting ethical or, at least, legislative solutions where only economic ones are possible?
    Mr. Lee: We have to look at each particular case, looking at the question of efficiency and determining in the light of our examination whether it is a proper return or not.
    Dr. David Kerr: Would not the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) be assisted out of his intellectual log if we were to take into community ownership a much larger section of the economy, thus ensuring that profits came to the community instead of to individuals?
    Mr. Lee: There is a good deal of logic in what my hon. Friend says.

    Incomes Policy
    Mr. Biffenasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he is satisfied that, for the purposes of supervising the incomes policy, his knowledge of the movements of incomes of employees who are not trade unionists is as comprehensive as that of incomes of trade unionists; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The arrangements for early warning of proposed increase in incomes apply to all the employees concerned, whether or not they are trade unionists, and these arrangements have worked well.
    Mr. Biffen: As about 60 per cent. of all employees in this country are non-unionised, according to figures supplied by the Government, does the right hon. Gentleman think that his Ministry is being informed as comprehensively about
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    the movement of incomes among those people as among those who are unionised and covered by the voluntary arrangements of the T.U.C.?
    Mr. Lee: There is no evidence whatever that employers are not informing us of the movements of wages and salaries irrespective of whether there is a majority of trade unionists in their employ or not.

    Manchester Airport (Services)
    Mr. Roseasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will make a statement on the current discussions between the North-West Planning Council and airlines with regard to the expansion of Manchester Airport's direct overseas passenger services and transatlantic freight flights as part of the Government's regional policies.
    Mr. Shore: The chairmen of the North-West, Northern and Yorkshire and Humberside Planning Councils are arranging to meet with the airlines to discuss the provision of further services to assist in the economic development of the North. We welcome these discussions, but it is too early to say what will result from them.
    Mr. Rose: Would it not be in accordance with the Minister's regional policies and plans for regional development if air transport were channelled to Manchester, because of the already overburdened airport of London, and will he agree that Manchester, with its industrial hinterland, is particularly suitable for transatlantic freight flights?
    Mr. Shore: The extent to which this is so is a matter which requires detailed study, and I have no doubt that the chairmen of the three councils principally concerned will be bringing together information relevant to that claim.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: When will the extension of the runway at Manchester be completed? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the large conurbation in that area needs more consideration and that Manchester can teach London a good deal in the operation of airports?
    Mr. Shore: With respect, that is a question more appropriately put to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
    Mr. Heffer: When this matter is being discussed, together with the future of freight transport, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there is an extremely good airport at Liverpool which now has a new long runway capable of taking most of the larger aircraft?
    Mr. Shore: This also is a matter which, I am sure, the chairmen of the planning councils concerned will bear in mind, discussing it and other possible airports in the review which is now taking place.

    Northern Ireland
    Mr. Roseasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will enter into discussions with the Northern Ireland Government to seek ways of encouraging economic growth in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Shore: There is already close liaison on economic matters between the Northern Ireland Government and the United Kingdom Government.
    Mr. Rose: Is my hon. Friend aware of the terrible plight of areas like Strabane with an unemployment rate of 30 per cent., and will he ensure that when work opportunities are provided in those areas—I hope that they will be forthcoming—there will be no political or religious discrimination attached to employment?
    Mr. Shore: Northern Ireland employment policy is a matter for the Northern Ireland Government, although we do our best to assist them because Northern Ireland is treated as are Scotland, Wales and the other development areas in relation to general Government policy. I am very aware of the particular sub-regional problem in Northern Ireland to which my hon. Friend has referred. I have discussed it with the Northern Ireland Government and, as far as possible, they are taking action to alleviate it.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: While I welcome every step to encourage economic growth, in which great progress has already been made by the Northern Ireland Government, will the Minister advise his hon. Friend to stop his mischief-making visits?
    Mr. Rose: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to state that another hon. Mem-
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    ber should not have the right to set foot in another part of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman put it in exactly that way. He made adverse comments, but that is not unusual here.
    Dr. Miller: On a point of order. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman include me in his admonishments?
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Gladly.

    Nurses
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if nurses come within his definition of lower-paid workers.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Nurses are salaried staff whose scales of pay cover a very wide range. It is not possible to quote a specific level of remuneration below which staff can be defined as lower paid, and individual cases need to be considered on their merits.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend not recognise that there is no group in the country for whom an increase in wages would meet with more universal consent than the nurses, and will he give an assurance that when the General Nursing Council comes forward with proposals he will regard them in the most generous light possible?
    Mr. Lee: I have much sympathy with the point made by my hon. Friend, but there is a very wide diversion in the actual pay scales, and for the initial stages it is up to the parties concerned to negotiate before the matter ever comes to us.

    Manufactured Goods (Anticipated Cost Increases)
    Mr. Archerasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he is aware that quotations for certain manufactured goods, due for delivery in mid-1968, include additions of about 3 per cent. In respect of anticipated cost increases upon the termination of the period of severe restraint; and whether this is in conformity with the Government's estimate.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I am looking into the case of which my hon. Friend has provided details and will write to him.
    Mr. Archer: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, but does not he agree that those of us who are anxious to see the Government's present policy succeed may have some difficulty in counselling moderation in incomes if the present period of restraint is followed by a spate of price increases?
    Mr. Lee: I am very concerned about the case of which my hon. Friend told me and I shall do everything possible to investigate it.

    Fylde Area
    Mr. Blakerasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will initiate a study of the employment needs of the Fylde area.
    Mr. Shore: The North West Economic Planning Board and Council are already examining the economic problems, including the employment needs, of the North West Region and of each of its subdivisions, including the Fylde.
    Mr. Blaker: While I thank the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that there is at Squire's Gate a building with an area of 1 million sq. ft. which has been unused for some time, while several thousand people are obliged to travel very long distances from their homes to find jobs? Will he ensure that these factors are taken into account in this study?
    Mr. Shore: It is very much Government policy to encourage office employment in this area. The study, to which my right hon. Friend the First Secretary has previously referred, is basically a statistical study of particular unemployment groups in the Fylde area.
    Mr. Clegg: When does the Minister expect the statistical report to be ready?
    Mr. Shore: I cannot give a date at the moment, but I shall look into it and write to let the hon. Gentleman have what information we have.

    Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Paper)
    Mr. Peytonasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when he intends to produce what he describes in his paper to
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    the National Economic Development Council as a realistic projection of the national product broken down into the implications for individual industries; and when he expects to receive the views of the National Economic Development Council and of the regional economic development councils on how far such projections would in practice be of value to individual firms.
    Mr. Shore: I cannot yet give dates. My right hon. Friend expects to receive the views of Economic Development Committees during the summer on all the questions which have been put to them. He will then wish to have further discussions with the National Economic Development Council before deciding on growth assumptions.
    Mr. Peyton: Would the Minister try to persuade either his right hon. Friend the First Secretary or his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to explain to the House one day what is meant in this document, which was the First Secretary's address to "Neddy", because the first observation of it leads one to suppose that it is entirely composed of meaningless piffle and absolute claptrap?
    Mr. Shore: There is no reason to believe that the National Economic Development Council shares the hon. Gentleman's views. On the contrary, it is taking the document very seriously and it is being discussed with individual E.D.C.s.
    Mr. Peyton: On a point of order. I beg to give notice that, in view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Mr. Molloyasked the Prime Minister what changes there have been since 4th April on the proposed method of consultation with Commonwealth Prime Ministers regarding the implications of Great Britain joining the European Economic Community.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made to the House on Tuesday last.—[Vol. 746, c. 310.]
    Mr. Molloy: Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that, whilst many of those people who used fervently to sing the praises of the British Empire do not seem to be so keen on the British Commonwealth of Nations, yet in so far as this is a remarkable comity of nations covering many continents, peoples and races, it could make and has made a great contribution to world understanding? Will he say that there will be in no way a deleterious effect on the British Commonwealth of Nations if we should go into the E.E.C?
    The Prime Minister: I dealt with the economic consequences on the Commonwealth in my statement, and they will probably be very fully debated next week. On the question of political links within the Commonwealth, no difference will be made to our present system of consultations and frequent Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conferences.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: After consulting Commonwealth Prime Ministers, has the Prime Minister any plans to consult the people of this country by the obvious means of a referendum?
    The Prime Minister: The people of this country will be consulted next week by the obvious means of a debate in Parliament.
    Mr. James Johnsonasked the Prime Minister what discussions he has had during the past month with the various member States of the European Economic Community regarding the mobility of labour within the Community, particularly with respect to the immigration of citizens of Commonwealth Dominions; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there can be discrimination against coloured students and workers in West Germany which is equally bad as discrimination that has occurred here in the past? Can he give an assurance that there will be no bar against the immigration of people like West Indians and Pakistanis to the E.E.C, and will he ensure that the terms for their entry are perhaps at least the same as those which apply here?
    The Prime Minister: This is an important, difficult and very complicated question which I think would be better dealt with in the debate next week. Certainly there is considerable doubt about operations within the Common Market countries themselves on the entry into those countries of persons who have come to a Community country from outside. There is, of course, no doubt about those who were born in that country—the descendants of immigrants.
    Mr. Grimond: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this is one of the matters which will be required to be negotiated after we enter the Community, if we get in, because although there may be doubt about the theoretical position, a practice has grown up in the Community of accepting immigrants on certain conditions and making them citizens of the country concerned? As there is free movement within the Community, do Her Majesty's Government accept this practice of the Community or think that this is a matter which will have to be negotiated?
    The Prime Minister: This is a very difficult matter on which a good deal more information is needed than we have at present. The negotiations will be the right time to establish that information. To answer the point made by the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think that there has ever been an authoritative decision by, for example, reference to the court or in any other way about whether immigrants coming from an associated country to one of the existing member countries then has, after a period of years establishing citizenship, the same automatic right to go to other Community countries as those who were born in the member country concerned. We need more information about this, and that information will be given to the House as soon as we get it.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear to everybody concerned, before we enter the Community, if we ever do, that if there is to be free movement of labour for Italians, Germans, Frenchmen, Luxemburgers and the rest to come to this country and vice versa, we will place no restriction whatever on any subject of the Commonwealth?
    The Prime Minister: This is a problem bristling with difficulties and I want the House to be in full possession of the facts when we have them as a result of discussion. One of the problems which might arise for Common Market countries would be their position if there were to be an absolutely free movement by everyone now living in Britain to those countries. There are other complications in this matter and I should like to have all the facts before trying to give any assurances to the House.
    Sir C. Osborne: As the net number of immigrants into this country last year was 50,000 and as there are one million here already, will the Prime Minister make it a condition, and say so now, that we will not go into the Common Market unless those people have complete freedom to go into the Common Market as citizens?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will know that we do not share all his views on the immigration question, nor, indeed, any of them. I am certainly not prepared to say that we shall make it a condition of entry into the European Economic Community that the hon. Gentleman can solve his problems, or the problems to which he keeps drawing attention—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."]—I am answering the question by saying that I shall not give an assurance. The hon. Gentleman asked for an assurance that I am answering by saying that I will not give an assurance that we will, as he said, make it a condition of entry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am answering his question, which was whether I would give an assurance, to which the answer is "No". I will not make it a condition of entry that Commonwealth immigrants into this country have to be free to move, in the numbers the hon. Gentleman has in mind, no doubt, to the Common Market countries. I hope that that is a clear enough answer, even if the hon. Gentleman does not like it.
    Mr. Heffer: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that every year Turkish and Algerian workers and workers from various ex-French colonial countries come into the European Economic Community for work and that there is no bar on those workers coming into the E.E.C.? Is he also aware that this is there-
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    fore a matter which can be discussed and settled by negotiation?
    The Prime Minister: It certainly must be discussed. We need more facts. I hope that it can be settled to the satisfaction of the great majority of hon. Members. It is certainly a fact that despite the provisions of the Treaty of Rome for free movement within the Six, by far the largest number of foreign workers in most of the importing areas of the Six are not from other countries within the Six, but workers who, despite the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, have come from outside, from countries like Spain or Turkey.
    Mr. Longden: Will the right hon. Gentleman have a look at Article 51 of the Treaty of Rome which appears to demand a unanimous vote, that is to say, to allow a veto, in matters concerning migration within the Community?
    The Prime Minister: I am, of course, aware of that Article but, as I have said, there are some very difficult questions, not yet resolved, of fact. I do not know whether they will present particular difficulties for us, but we want to analyse them and to see how serious they are. They will then be a matter for discussion and possible negotiation.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether this is one of the questions which was exhaustively probed in his recent discussions with the Six Governments? Will he give a complete report to the House by next week on what were the discussions which he had on this matter, and can he say whether he can give the House an undertaking, which we are entitled to have, that this whole question of immigration into this country and the Community is one of the matters to be settled before we go in and not after?
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps my hon. Friend did not hear my Answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) when I said that during our visits we had no discussions on this question of the mobility of labour within the Community. It was certainly not raised by them as one of the difficulties. The more we analyse it, the more we can see that some problems have to be solved. These will be discussed before there is any question of

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    entry. If there is a problem for negotiation and settlement before, it will be settled before entry, but I am still not in a position to give full details of what the difficulties are.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Can I have some clarification? Did I understand my right hon. Friend to say that it would be a breaking point in any negotiations if the Community would not accept Commonwealth people of any colour?
    The Prime Minister: I did not mention the question of colour and we shall not approach any of these discussions on the question of colour. Nor, I am sure, will the Common Market countries with whom we shall be in discussion. I did not use the expression "breaking point". I said that we needed to know a lot more facts. It is by no means certain that under present Community practice the movement of immigrants from one country to another, immigrants who have come in from outside, from an associated territory, is allowed. There are many difficult problems to analyse on which the Community countries themselves have not reached finality, but, as the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longdon) made clear, these are matters which, even after entry, require a special method of settlement.

    ADEN
    Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister what Departments of State are involved in dealing with the Aden problem; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: The Foreign Office is primarily responsible, Sir, but of course other Departments such as the Ministries of Defence and Overseas Development have a part to play.
    Mr. Winnick: Could my right hon. Friend tell the House what arrangements are being made for a constitutional review in Aden and will he agree that the whole federal set-up needs to be drastically reviewed, and that this scheme should never have been brought into being in the first place?
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said in the recent debate about Aden. On the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, this
    736
    was a matter for some discussion during that debate. But, as I suggested the other day, the urgent thing now is to face the present and the future rather than to make mutual recriminations about who was to blame.
    Mr. Maudling: Does the Prime Minister recognise that uncertainty about the Government's policy in Aden is causing great damage there and indeed to British interests throughout the Middle East? Will he undertake to consult very frankly about this with King Faisal of Saudi Arabia when he visits this country?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman will recognise the great need for consultations before statements are made, and these have been going on. As I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, Lord Shackleton is now back in this country and is reporting. Certainly when King Faisal is here there will be the fullest exchange on all matters affecting the Middle East and more widely.

    LOWER-PAID WORKERS
    Mr. Croninasked the Prime Minister what further plans he has with regard to instructing the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Social Security to co-ordinate plans for fiscal and social measures to raise the standard of living of families dependent on lower-paid workers following upon his further consideration of the matter.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the speeches of my right hon. Friends during the debate on family poverty on 20th April.—[Vol. 745, c. 823.]
    Mr. Cronin: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that these Government measures will be of a comprehensive and full nature when they occur, bearing in mind that British social security payments are much smaller than comparable payments in the Common Market countries? Would it not assist him in his task of soliciting their good will if he brought those payments up to Common Market standards?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will have reached the conclusion from what was said in the debate to which I referred that we are working on a basis for a comprehensive and full approach to these problems. It is a fact that in certain

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    important respects our social services have for some years lagged behind those of the Common Market countries, which have improved considerably over recent years.
    Mr. Dean: Does the Prime Minister realise that in the recent debate on family poverty many people, both inside and outside the House, saw a lack of co-ordination between the speeches of the Minister of Social Security and the Minister without Portfolio? Will he ensure that Ministers do not speak with a multipilicity of conflicting voices on this vital topic?
    The Prime Minister: Having studied the debate, I cannot find any evidence to support what the hon. Gentleman has said. The Government have made it clear that we are studying a number of alternative ways of dealing with this problem.
    Mr. Whitaker: Will my right hon. Friend take into account the present fiscal system, which, in some respects, conflicts with our social security system in that the highest tax allowances give benefits in respect of, for example, housing and education—benefits which are available to the richest people?
    The Prime Minister: I am well aware of that argument. It was one of the points made by a number of hon. Members in the debate. However, I cannot at this stage prejudge the Government's announcement on this later in the summer.
    Mr. Heath: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, in respect of the measures to be announced this summer, we will not have to wait until next April before they come into effect?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot give any assurances in advance about what the statement will be. [Interruption.] I think that, in asking that question, the right hon. Gentleman probably had in mind the fact that one of the methods which has been suggested involves fiscal changes—which, of course, would relate to the fiscal year beginning in April. Certainly we have not taken a decision which would enable me to answer the right hon. Gentleman's question.

    D NOTICES (COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
    Mr. Peytonasked the Prime Minister when he expects to receive the report of the Radcliffe Committee of Inquiry into D Notices.
    The Prime Minister: Soon, Sir.
    Mr. Peyton: As the right hon. Gentleman is obviously aware that this Report is awaited with a great deal of interest, can he say whether he will himself make a statement when it is published?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, and I think that that is the usual position. The hon. Gentleman will, of course, know that it is the hope of the Government to publish this information in full, in so far as this is possible, but that on these occasions there are discussions with the Leader of the Opposition about any deletions which might be necessary on security grounds.

    PRODUCTIVITY CONFERENCE
    Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister when he will hold his next productivity conference.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 1st March to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton).—[Vol. 742, c. 113.]
    Mr. Marten: If and when the Prime Minister holds another productivity conference, will he take into account, and discuss the principle involved in, the recent railwaymen's pay settlement whereby the railwaymen were given increased pay for increased productivity but whereby the public, be they travellers or taxpayers, got no benefit at all from the increased productivity?
    The Prime Minister: To answer the "if and when" part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary, the next conference is scheduled for 14th June. We are having discussions with both sides of industry, through the National Economic Development Office, about appropriate items for the agenda, but I cannot say at this stage whether there will be discussions on productivity pay agreements,

    739
    a matter which we discussed last time. The general view of the Government, as shown in the White Paper, is that, wherever possible, productivity agreements should provide some dividend for the public as well as for capital and labour.
    Mr. Ashley: As the first productivity conference was highly successful, will my right hon. Friend consider including shop stewards in any future conferences in view of the need to percolate ideas from the top to the shop floor level?
    The Prime Minister: We are discussing with representatives of industry the question of who should attend the conference. I agree with my hon. Friend—and there has been a great deal of follow-up work done in this connection—that one of the main things is to ensure that the findings of the conference are known as widely as possible, and certainly at the shop floor level.
    Mr. Heath: Will the Prime Minister do his honest best to see that the next productivity conference is not followed by a drop of 10 per cent. in investment?
    The Prime Minister: I can certainly tell the right hon. Gentleman that some of the very gloomy pronouncements about investment that were made, understandably by industry at the time, are not now being fulfilled.

    LOCAL AUTHORITY ACCOMMODATION
    Mr. Channonasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Minister to deal specifically with local authority accommodation.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Channon: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that that reply is extremely disappointing, particularly in view of the fact that the recent council elections showed an overwhelming mandate in favour of a policy of selling council houses?
    The Prime Minister: Although I missed the first few words of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I got the concluding phrase, which refers to the Government's policy on the sale of council
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    houses. An additional Minister is not needed to deal with this matter. My right hon. Friend has made it clear that if in any area the demand for rented housing is levelling off, there may be no objection to selling council houses; but the overriding need in very many areas is for houses to let at moderate rents.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the effect, after five years, of selling council houses in an area like Birmingham, where there is a very great shortage of housing, is that that number of houses has been completely lost for ever to the Corporation and, to that extent, has prevented many people who need accommodation of this type from getting it?
    The Prime Minister: Any hon. Member who represents an area where there is and has been for many years an acute housing shortage or an acute slum problem, or both, recognises the need for maintaining a local authority pool of houses to let at reasonable rents and recognises this to be of paramount importance in solving the housing problems of those areas.
    Mr. Heath: Is it not true that the great majority of tenants of local authority houses live for the rest of their lives in those houses and that often their descendants live in the same houses afterwards? This being the case, if these people want to have the right to buy those houses, should not they be allowed to do so? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that the Government will not impose any further restrictions on the purchase of council houses?
    The Prime Minister: I am certainly not giving such an assurance. I have laid down—I have repeated what has been the policy enunciated in this House by my right hon. Friends on this very important question. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, council tenants who can afford to buy their own houses can buy privately, and they will be helped by the option mortgage scheme. And when they do buy, their council houses will become available for reletting to families in need. As I explained in answer to an earlier supplementary question, in areas where need is much less acute, there may be no objection, in (appropriate cases, to selling council houses.
    Mr. Roebuck: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are 152,000 families on council waiting lists in the Greater London Area? Would not he agree that it would be absolutely scandalous if any existing stocks of houses in Greater London were sold? Will he therefore watch this situation very carefully?
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what I have already said about the general principle involved here, it will, of course, be for my right hon. Friend to watch this situation. The original Question I was asked was about the appointment of an additional Minister to deal with local authority accommodation.
    Mr. Heath: In a situation in which so many local authorities have been elected on a firm policy of selling council houses—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—is it not disgraceful if the Government now prevent those local authorities from doing so?
    The Prime Minister: I am not responsible for the promises made by Conservatives who have got themselves elected in recent local elections. I know the basis of the policy which this Government put forward on this matter at the last General Election.

AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT (SOUTHEND AIRPORT)
Mr. Channon Mr. Channon (by Private Notice) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement on the accident at Southend airport yesterday in which two people lost their lives.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu): A Viscount belonging to Channel Airways crashed at Southend Airport yesterday afternoon during take-off on a test flight made in connection with the issue of a British certificate of airworthiness. The aircraft collided with a hut, two of the occupants of which were killed and the third seriously injured. No passengers were being carried in the aircraft and none of the three crew sustained serious injury. The accident is being investigated by the Accidents Investigation Branch of the Board of Trade.
The whole House will, I know, wish to join with me in expressing sympathy with
742
the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives as a result of the accident.
Mr. Channon: May I associate myself with the Minister's expression of sympathy with those injured and with the relatives of those killed in this tragic accident?
Is he aware that this is the first fatal accident at Southend Airport and that until now it has had a wonderful safety record, which reflects great credit on those who work and fly from there? However, does he realise that it is next door to a large residential area, so that any accident of this kind is bound to cause concern to people in the neighbourhood? Will he therefore arrange for the inquiry to report as speedily and as publicly as possible?
Mr. Mallalieu: I am well aware of the safety record of Southend Airport. We will certainly get the inquiry through as quickly as we can and publish a report.

QUESTION TO MINISTER
Sir Lionel Heald: On a point of order. May I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, in relation to Question No. 50, which stands in my name?—
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any notice was given to the Metropolitan Police of an intention to transport a consignment of gold, valued at £750.000, across North London on 1st May; whether he will now take steps to secure that the police will always have a proper opportunity of providing protection in similar circumstances; and whether he will make a statement.
May I, first, ask you to confirm that the Home Secretary has not requested you to allow him to make a statement at the end of Questions about this matter? I seek your guidance on a matter of principle, because this is a very urgent and serious matter of much public interest. I made inquiries and was told that the Home Secretary did not think that it was right to make a statement about it and would give only a Written Answer.
I should like your guidance as to circumstances in which there are matters to which the Home Secretary thinks that he should not refer in a statement. When he says that an oral statement is not desirable, although he is prepared to give

743
a Written Answer, this seems to be a serious matter.
Mr. Speaker: I cannot in any way be responsible for a Minister's conversation, or what he is reported to have conveyed to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. As for whether a Question should be written or oral, I have no power to compel a Minister, at the end of Oral Questions, to answer a Question which has not been reached. I have had no such request.
It would be in order for the Home Secretary to rise at this point and answer the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Question if he so desires, but I have no power to compel him to do so.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 8TH MAY—In the morning—
Completion of the Second Reading of the Fishing Vessel Grants Bill.
Remaining stages of the Dangerous Drugs Bill and of the National Health Service (Family Planning) Bill.
Second Reading of the Air Corporations Bill [Lords], the Development of Inventions Bill [Lords] and of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Bill [Lords], which are all consolidation Measures.
In the afternoon—
Opening of a three-day debate on the Common Market, which will arise on a Government Motion to approve the statement in the White Paper on Membership of the European Communities. (Cmnd. 3269.)
Afterwards, Lords Amendments to the Housing Subsidies Bill and to the Road Safety Bill.
TUESDAY, 9TH MAY—Supply [20th Allotted Day]: Continuation of the Common Market debate.
WEDNESDAY, 10TH MAY—In the morning—
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Motion on the Carriage by Air Acts (Application of Provisions) (Overseas Territories) Order.
Remaining stages of the Air Corporations Bill [Lords], the Development of Inventions Bill [Lords] and of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Bill [Lords].
In the afternoon—
Conclusion of the Debate on the Common Market.
There will be a suspension of the rule until 11 o'clock.
THURSDAY, 11TH MAY—Remaining stages of the Shipbuilding Industry Bill and of the Fishing Vessel Grants Bill.
Motions on the Ploughing Grants Schemes and on the Fertilisers (United Kingdom) Scheme.
As the House knows, it will be proposed that on FRIDAY, 12TH MAY, the House should rise for the Whitsun Adjournment until WEDNESDAY, 31ST MAY.
It may be convenient to the House if I announce now that the business for the first week after the Adjournment will be as follows:
WEDNESDAY, 31ST MAY—In the morning—
Second Reading of the Anchors and Chain Cables Bill.
In the afternoon—
Finance (No. 2) Bill: Committee stage.
THURSDAY, 1ST JUNE—Further progress with the Committee stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill.
FRIDAY, 2ND JUNE—Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Heath: Can the Leader of the House tell us when the White Paper on Agriculture, relating to the Common Market, will be published?
Mr. Crossman: I am glad to say that it is now available in the Vote Office.
Dr. Winstanley: Is the Leader of the House aware that Mental Health Week takes place immediately after the Recess, and that on the first day of that week the Minister of Health is at present placed fifth in the order of Questions? Can nothing be done to elevate him in the batting order, so as to give publicity to

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this important event, which has Government support?
Mr. Crossman: I doubt whether it would be possible to organise our Question Time to coincide with certain events, even with such an important event as that.
Mr. Shinwell: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the fact that in the debate on the Common Market there will be no official Opposition operating, he can give any information as to the number of Government speakers who will address the House from the Front Bench, and whether they will include the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Transport, and any other right hon. Members associated with the Government who have expressed in public and, of course, in private, opposition to British entry into the Common Market?
Mr. Crossman: It is news to me that there will not be an official Opposition functioning during the debate. As for my right hon. Friend's question about who will be speaking from the Front Bench, I do not think that it is normal to give all of the names. I give him this assurance—he will find that a fair proportion of those whose names he mentioned might well be speaking from the Front Bench.
Mr. Thorpe: May I ask a slightly less controversial question on the three-day debate? Is it the intention of the Leader of the House to suggest to the House that certain different topics, related to the Common Market, might be taken on different days—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] May I ask the Leader of the House to reply, and not his supporters?
May we have an indication from the Leader of the House which particular Ministers are likely to reply on which days, so that the House will know the way in which the Government are planning the debate? Do we take it that guidance will be given to hon. Members opposite, or that this will be a matter for a free vote?
Mr. Crossman: I am certainly willing to discuss the division of the debate. A three-day debate is a very long affair. I would have thought that we should leave right hon. and hon. Members free to
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speak when they wish. It will, in due course, be announced which Government spokesmen there are to be. There will be spokesmen from different Departments on certain days, and no doubt Members will notice that they are speaking then, and that a reply on that subject will be vouchsafed.
Mr. Whitaker: In view of the very serious allegations which have been made against certain right hon. Gentlemen concerning not only the operations in Suez, but also collusion with the C.I.A. in Guyana, and in fairness to those right hon. Gentlemen, so that they can have an opportunity to deal fully with these allegations, may we have an assurance that, as soon as possible after the Recess, we will have a full day's debate on each matter?
Mr. Crossman: I would like to have notice about Guyana, which, I would not have thought, we needed to debate at all.
On the subject of Suez, we have all read with interest the articles in The Times, but I still think that it is important that we should wait and see the whole book, when it is published, before we decide how the House should deal with it, if it should.
Sir E. Boyle: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, before Whitsun, we shall have an official statement from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Education and Science about the school-building programme for next year, bearing in mind the concern felt by many local authorities following the shock announcement about the Birmingham programme yesterday, and the fact that each successive slice turns out to be more disappointing than the one before?
Mr. Crossman: I certainly do not accept all the imputations of the question, but I will put to my right hon. Friend the desire of the right hon. Gentleman for further information on this point before the Recess.
Mr. Mendelson: Is it not a fact that apart from the question of entry into the European Economic Community, there are many other burning problems, such as the dangerous situation in Vietnam and South-East Asia, which the House ought to consider? Would my right hon. Friend transpose the Motion for the

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Whitsun Recess to the Thursday afternoon, so that the traditional right of Members to deal with grievances and to point out dangers can be fully unheld and ample time for debate provided?
Mr. Crossman: I think that my hon. Friend may find that my mind has anticipated his on the timing of the debate on the Adjournment for the Whitsun Recess.
Mr. Turton: Can the Leader of the House say when he intends to put the Government Motion on the Common Market on the Order Paper? Can he further say whether, before the debate, there will be a White Paper on the constitutional consequences of entry? May I also ask him whether another statement on the economic consequences of entry, in addition to what is in The Times of last Monday, will be made?
Mr. Crossman: My right hon. Friend made clear what the intentions of the Government are. The Motion has been tabled today, and the first White Paper, which includes simply the text of his statement, is available now. There is also available the first of a series of detailed White Papers, which, as he said, is on agriculture. Others will follow in due course.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: As, in these great economic debates, it is customary for the Secretary of State for Scotland to explain the relative advantages and disadvantages of any policy, will my right hon. Friend be here to explain how Scotland is to gain or lose by going into the Common Market?
Mr. Crossman: I can assure my hon. Friend that I will pass his message of solicitude to his right hon. Friend.
Mr. Neave: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen Motion No. 518, on Sachsenshausen Concentration Camp, which has now been signed by 275 Members of all parties, and I expect that there will be many more? Is he aware that many feel that there has been a tragic miscarriage of justice in this case? Could he provide time for the Foreign Secretary to answer a debate?
[That this House calls upon the Foreign Secretary to appoint an independent person to investigate the treatment of
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former British inmates of Sachsenshausen Concentration Camp, civilian and military, who have been refused compensation under the agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Republic of Germany, signed on the 7th June, 1964, with power to recommend the award of ex-gratia payments in appropriate cases.]
Mr. Crossman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for talking to me before putting his question to me this afternoon. I have looked at the Motion and the substance of it, and I have suggested to the hon. Gentleman that, in the first instance, he might consider that this is a suitable case for the Parliamentary Commissioner to investigate—[HON. MEMBERS: "A debate."] This is a suggestion which one hon. Member could put to another. As for the chances of getting Government time for this, they are small, but there are other opportunities open to hon. Gentlemen, including Opposition time and private Members' time.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Turning to the more intimate and heart-rending Motion of mine, would my right hon. Friend find time to discuss Motion No. 510 about the withdrawal from seamen of facilities to visit their wives and families when they return from the sea?
[That this House is of opinion that for social, family, economic and other reasons the withdrawal by British Railways of the cheap fare railway vouchers hitherto available to seamen and their families is wrong as it frustrates family re-unions, deprives British Railways of fares, diminishes British Railways income and now calls upon Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Transport, by legislation or otherwise, to restore to British seamen and their families the relevant facilities which they have hitherto enjoyed.]
Mr. Crossman: When my hon. and learned Friend put that point to me last week, I told him that the Minister of Transport had answered a Question on it. Since then the President of the Board of Trade has answered a question on it. I should not have thought that there was time before the Recess for a debate.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Referring to Motion No. 518, would the Leader of the House look into the fact that it is quite likely

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that, because of the time which has elapsed since the awards were made to other prisoners of war, the matter would be outside the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Commissioner? In view of the number of Ministers in successive Governments who have handled this matter, would he not agree that, since there are nearly 300 signatures to the Motion, he has a duty to the House to provide time for a debate?
Mr. Crossman: I have considered this case with great seriousness. By the way, it is true that there would have to be a special dispensation for the Parliamentary Commissioner to enable him to look back beyond a certain point in time. That needs to be clarified. I repeat what I have said: I do not think it likely that there will be Government time in the near future to debate the matter, but if hon. Members feel strongly about it, there are other methods of dealing with it, either in private Members' time or in Opposition time.
Mr. Ginsburg: I refer the Leader of the House once again to Motion No. 518, about Sachsenshausen Concentration Camp. Is not he aware of the very strong feelings on this question shared by hon. Members of all parties? Should there not be an early debate? The Leader of the House has made a suggestion concerning the Parliamentary Commissioner. May I make another suggestion to him, namely, that he asks the Foreign Secretary to look at this matter again and to ensure that justice is done to the men concerned?
Mr. Crossman: I will consider all that my hon. Friend has said. I have consulted my right hon. Friend again today. I think that there is no doubt that, whether it is right or wrong, the Foreign Secretary has come to a firm and clear decision on this matter. If hon. Members feel that they want to undo that decision, and to debate or protest against it, let me say again that there are methods open to them in the House either in private Members' time or, if the Opposition wish it, in their own time.
Mr. Bryan: When are we to have the debate on the White Paper on Broadcasting, which was promised some months ago?
Mr. Crossman: We have had at least two debates relating to broadcasting. I
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will bear in mind the need for a debate on the rest of the White Paper, but I cannot promise an early debate.
Mr. Wellbeloved: Will there be time to debate Motion No. 524, dealing with the alleged statement by the Leader of the Opposition insulting the majority of the British people? Would he give consideration to making time available for a Bill for the protection of apes against exploitation for political purposes?
[That this House deplores the reporting in a London newspaper of a statement alleged to have been made by the Leader of the Opposition attributing ape-like qualities to his political opponents, most of whom are happily married to human beings, and commiserates with him on publicity being given to yet another example of his political shortsightedness.]
Mr. Crossman: The question of legislation would have to be postponed to a later time, but, clearly, this is a subject of importance to hon. Members. Of course, the whole question of a debate could be foreshortened if the Leader of the Opposition would tell us whether what he said at the Royal Academy was an aesthetic judgment, a scientific judgment, or just a plain piece of political prejudice.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We are drifting into discussing merits rather than asking business questions.
Mr. Peyton: In his last reply on the Motion concerning Sachsenshausen Concentration Camp, the right hon. Gentleman said that there were means open to Members to raise the matter if they wished. What more effective device can they resort to than 300 of them putting their names to a Motion of this kind? Will the right hon. Gentleman give the matter his attention?
Mr. Crossman: I am sure that I need not advise the hon. Gentleman that when he puts down a Motion there are further actions which he can take to impress his views on the Government. There are many actions one can take to create the occasion for a debate.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Would my right hon. Friend consider favourably giving Government time, either next week or as

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soon after as possible, for the Employment Agencies Bill, which has to complete its passage through the House?
Mr. Crossman: I was distressed at what happened to the Bill last Friday, and the way in which it happened, but I cannot give my hon. Friend very much hope of time being found for it.
Sir T. Beamish: May I ask the Leader of the House what sort of standards he applies in deciding when to provide Government time to discuss important questions in which both sides of the House are interested? Why was a whole morning provided to debating the Live Hare Coursing (Abolition) Bill and no time for a Motion dealing with human beings?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have ruled that we cannot discuss merits at this time. The hon. Gentleman must ask for time to be given to a specific matter in which he is interested.
Sir T. Beamish: I understand that, Mr. Speaker. I was simply pressing the right hon. Gentleman to realise the great importance of this question and the immense interest on both sides of the House and urging him to provide time for a discussion of this matter.
Mr. Crossman: If I am to take that as a definite proposition that the hon. Gentleman would like time to be found in a morning sitting, I will take it into consideration.
Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order. Could you tell me, Mr. Speaker, when back benchers take over from the Executive?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I know that in the minds of some hon. Members that is a consummation devoutly to be wished. I see no sign of it in the foreseeable future.
Mr. Molloy: May I add my contribution to those already made concerning Motion No. 518? Does not my right hon. Friend feel that, since there are so many signatures to the Motion, there should be a debate? May I suggest that some time might be saved by the Leader of the Liberal Party and his colleagues not participating in the Common Market debate, because they would crawl in with no conditions whatsoever, and that time
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to debate Motion No. 518 might be taken from the debate on the European Economic Community?
Mr. Crossman: I am prepared, through the usual channels, to discuss with the Leader of the Liberal Party the possibility of debating Motion No. 518.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: May we hear something more next week from the Government about the plight of British subjects and Commonwealth citizens for whose protection Her Majesty's Government are responsible who are detained in Zambia and elsewhere in Africa?
Further, when will the Motion for the Adjournment for Whitsun be introduced? Some of us might feel disposed to oppose it unless we hear something more satisfactory from the Government on this matter.
Mr. Crossman: I will communicate the hon. Gentleman's anxiety to my right hon. Friends. I indicated some minutes ago that I expected the Motion to be taken on Thursday next. The hon. Gentleman would then have an opportunity of raising the matter.
Mr. Michael Foot: May I revert to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Whitaker) requesting a debate on the allegations of lying in the House made by a former Minister of the Crown in The Times? Would my right hon. Friend consider whether it is sufficient to say that we should postpone consideration of this matter until the book is published? Have not the allegations now been made? Will not my right hon. Friend undertake to discuss this matter immediately through the usual channels to see whether the Opposition propose to set down a debate so that we can clear up the matter? Lying to the House of Commons is a very serious question—lying on a matter of major consequence——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is drifting into the merits of the case. He has made his point.
Mr. Foot: I was distracted, Mr. Speaker, because the Leader of the Opposition did not seem to regard this as a serious matter. Will my right hon. Friend discuss it through the usual channels and report to us next week about time for a debate?
Mr. Crossman: I remind my hon. Friend that an assurance was given by my predecessor that there should be a debate on Suez. I repeated the assurance in my first appearance at the Dispatch Box as Leader of the House. Now we have a new element. The book has not yet been published. I said, not unreasonably, that we might wait until the book is published, or at least until the serial is completed in The Times, before making up our minds about what to do.
Mr. Dean: Reverting to the topic of the Common Market debate, can the Leader of the House give us an assurance that there will be a clear indication from the Government, on the first day, of those subjects which they feel do not need to be negotiated before we enter the Common Market? Is he aware that there are some hon. Members who attach great importance to the Government's views on this matter?
Mr. Crossman: I will certainly communicate that to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who, I think, will be opening the debate on the first day.
Mr. Winnick: Has my right hon. Friend seen Motion No. 507 on the colour bar, which has now been signed by over 150 hon. Members? Can he tell us whether the Government will allow time for a general debate on colour discrimination in the near future?
[That this House, aware of the widespread discrimination against coloured people in this country which has now been confirmed by the Political and Economic Planning Report, calls on the Government to extend the Race Relations Act to cover employment, housing and insurance.]
Mr. Crossman: There is no intention to have it before the Recess, but I will bear in mind the demand of the House for a debate on the subject.
Mr. Lipton: As most of us have forgotten what the last one was about, will my right hon. Friend say when we can have the next Budget statement?
Mr. Crossman: The certain answer is, not before the Whitsun Recess.

GOVERNMENTAL STATISTICAL SERVICES (ESTIMATES COMMITTEE REPORTS)
4.1 p.m.
Mr. William Hamling: I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the Fourth Report from the Estimates Committee and of the Ninth Special Report from the Estimates Committee relating to Government Statistical Services.
The Reports from the Estimates Committee have been the work mainly of the Sub-Committee dealing with economic affairs. When the Sub-Committee was first asked to undertake its inquiry, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) was Chairman, but then he was transferred to a higher sphere, and a more humble hon. Member on the back benches below the Gangway was asked to take on the job of Chairman of the Sub-Committee.
This was a very special and difficult task to undertake. If it had not been for the new practice adopted by the Estimates Committee of appointing a technical expert to the Sub-Committee, I should not have been able to undertake the task, and I am sure that my colleagues on the Sub-Committee would no have been able to conduct their inquiry with such expedition without that assistance.
I pay special tribute to Professor Graham Pyatt, who was the technical expert appointed to the Sub-Committee. It was an experiment, and it was the first time that a technical expert had been appointed. It can be said that the experience on this occasion augurs well for a repetition of the practice in future years.
All members of the Sub-Committee learned a great deal from this exercise, and I hope very much that our Report, which is the subject of this debate, will be accepted eagerly by the House and lead to changes in Government policy, because the purpose of the whole exercise was to see that the Government changed their mind on important matters of administration and policy.
I am glad to note that my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs is to reply to the debate.

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When one considers the Department which he represents, it is an indication that already the Government have made a certain decision of policy. I am sure that we are grateful for that.
I want, first, briefly to deal with some of the recommendations which, though they are hardly minor in character, are much less contentious than some of the others to which I shall refer later.
The Sub-Committee's first recommendation is that the career prospects and the standing of statisticians in Government service should be improved. In the Ninth Special Report, the departmental observation indicates that some improvement has been made, but it appears that the recommendation has been accepted with a certain amount of reservation. It seemed to the Sub-Committee that, if we are to improve Government statistical services and bring statisticians into the realm of policy-making, their standing and career prospects must be improved. Other professional men such as economists and sociologists in Government service already have been given status and standing, and their career prospects are good. Statisticians have not yet achieved that eminence, and we hope that more will.
The Sub-Committee's second recommendation deals with the current discussions on a common register and suggests that they should be expedited, with a public statement on their conclusion. It is no accident that we ask for a public statement, because the public should be kept informed of what is going on. The Department in question has replied that agreement has been reached in principle, but it adds the qualification, "if it is decided to proceed" with a common register.
That is a qualification which, in practice, I hope will not have any effect. It may be that I am a little suspicious of Governments—the present one as well as previous ones—but, whenever I see a qualification, I regard it as a prognostication of future events and an indication that the qualification will have effect. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to resolve my suspicions.
Our third recommendation is that the Central Statistical Office should examine forms used by Departments to achieve
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standardisation. I am sure that that is a recommendation with which no one will quarrel. Standardisation, as you have said, Mr. Speaker, is a consummation devoutly to be wished. It is stated in the Departmental observation that the present procedure of consultation between Departments to avoid duplication will be re-examined. That, also, is a time-honoured form of words which can mean nothing and generally means very little. I hope that in this case ultimately it will mean something.
When forms are sent out, particularly to industrial firms, there is a need for some sort of standardisation. Firms should not be asked the same question twice, and certainly not the same question in the same week, as sometimes happens. Representatives of a business firm in my borough have expressed themselves as being rather fed up with Government Departments which do not seem to know what they want or when they want it.
Our fourth recommendation is that a standing group of persons with specialised knowledge of computers from both inside and outside the Civil Service and under the auspices of the C.S.O. should be appointed to examine existing computer installations, report on the development of computers and their application, and supervise the training of civil servants to deal with computers. That, too, has been accepted in principle. We have been told that the Treasury now exercises the oversight of this matter and that a standing group will be set up, but that the Government consider it appropriate that it should be under the Treasury.
I wonder why the Treasury will never let go of anything? It seem to want to control everything, whatever it is, sealing wax, and all the rest of it. Given a desire to increase the standing of the C.S.O., and given that the main burden of our Report is that the C.S.O. should supervise the Government's statistical services, the Government, or Treasury, suggestion is unacceptable to us.
Our fifth recommendation is that there is a need for a comprehensive public guide to official and semi-official statistics. Those who have been concerned professionally over the years with the use of statistics know how difficult it is to find their way about the tortuous world of

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Government and semi-official statistics. Before the war there was an admirable guide to official statistics. The Government have fobbed us off with the reply that this is unnecessary because the prewar publication was not very good.
This does not strike me as being a very good reason for not having a perfectly good, reliable, and informative guide to official statistics. There does not seem to be much enthusiasm on the part of the Government for this recommendation, but there is a real difficulty in discovering where information is to be obtained. This is especially so with some official statistics. I am advised, for example, that many marketing organisations have useful statistics, and that these are not always available to people who are not exactly in that sphere.
The next two recommendations deal with the co-ordination by the C.S.O. of Government statistical publications, and we recommend that steps should be taken to ensure that published series are supplemented by comprehensive descriptions of the methods used in collecting data. I am sure that these are unexceptionable recommendations, in the sense that nobody will be against them. These are virtues which I am sure everyone is in favour of, as distinct from the sins which we are all supposed to be against.
I turn now to a group of recommendations which may perhaps be of a more contentious character. Recommendations (8), (11), (12) and (13) refer to the collection and publication of industrial statistics. We have recommended that the C.S.O. should examine and advise on the existing arrangements for collecting and publishing these statistics. We recommend that a Standing Committee on Industrial Statistics should be established under the chairmanship of the C S.O., and here we have, in a very central position, the Central Statistical Office.
At the moment, industrialists do not know which Department is concerned. We have been told in the official replies that these statistics are available in the Departments, and that anybody who wants to know rings up the Department concerned, but if the person does not know which Department to ring, obviously he can never find the information. There
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ought to be some kind of central agency to provide information about where the stuff can be obtained, and this, we feel, is the job of the C.S.O.
There are available vast amounts of statistics which are not used because nobody knows where they are to be obtained, and the Government's reply, in simple and short words, is "rather wet". They are seeming to say that everything in the garden is lovely, when everybody knows that it is not. We regard this as a very important group of recommendations, and their acceptance would very firmly signalise the position of the C.S.O.
Recommendation (21) is concerned with the same sort of thing, namely, that Economic Development Councils should be closely involved whenever new statistical inquiries are addressed to industry. This is part and parcel of one of the central ideas in our Report, namely, that E.D.C.s should be closely involved in the collection and use of statistics, and also that the regions should be closely involved. I am glad to say that the Government accepted this. There is clearly a need to make more use of E.D.C.s.
I want now to refer to the vexed question of forecasting, and the place of statistics and statistical services in this respect. This is no doubt the most controversial aspect of our Report. I think it is worth noting that there was no controversy about this on the Sub-Committee or on the Estimates Committee. When one remembers how many political battles have been fought on the question of economic planning, one finds it surprising that there was no real controversy in the Estimates Committee about the use of statistics in forecasting. It may be, as some of my hon. Friends opposite—if I may so refer to them on this occasion—would say, that there has never been any, and this may be why there has not been more controversy about it, but the controversy may arise when we have planning. We shall see.
We recommend that urgent steps should be taken to increase research on forecasting methods, and on the data used in forecasting. This is something new. I am sure that 30 years ago, when some of us were learning classical economics—and, after all, I was brought up on Alfred Marshall at my university—[An HON.

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MEMBER: "He is dead now."] Yes, but he was very much alive in the corridors of academic power when I was an undergraduate.
I was brought up on classical economics. I did not need to know any maths, at all. Very few economists in those days needed to know much maths. One could get a first without them then, but these days one cannot get very far without mathematics in economics, either the old maths., or even the new maths. My daughter is studying economics at school, and she is trying to learn the new maths. I do not understand them at all.
The Government recognise the need for this research, and say that information will be published on methodology, but I want to take the discussion further than the Government have done in their reply. I want to refer to the February issue of Economic Trends and the article therein on "Econometrics research for short-term forecasting", and, secondly, the March issue of the Three Banks Review, in which there is an article entitled "Econometrics: Achievements and Prospects", by Professor Johnston, of the University of Manchester.
This is something new. I learned a great deal more about econometrics while I was a member of this Sub-Committee than I had ever thought possible about six months ago. In fact, I doubt whether I had heard the word very much before I found myself pitched into the position of Chairman of this Sub-Committee, but I would like to detain the House for a few minutes to talk about some of the things said by Professor Johnston, and some of the things said in the February issue of Economic Trends because I think that this is very relevant to this debate. In fact, I think that this is the most important thing discussed in this Report and in the evidence of the various witnesses which is printed in a series of appendices.
Econometrics is concerned not with qualitiative economic analysis, but with quantitative information about economic systems. The econometrician is concerned with discovering the evidence of relationship between economic facts. We have a good deal of evidence about the need for this. The econometrician assembles relevant statistical data and, using some method of statistical estima-
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tion, derives the best possible estimates of the influences of the various factors at work in a given situation. Without reliable statistical data, this is impossible; this is one of the things which we think should be aimed at.
Of course, economic data do not behave exactly as specified by simple or even complicated relations, and forecasts cannot be made with 100 per cent, precision. Some wonder whether they can be made with 10 per cent. precision, but no doubt other hon. Members will comment on that. The important rôle of the econometrician is to assess the likely error in relations of this kind, but, to achieve his task, he must try to evaluate and assess the statistical relations which he has obtained and judge whether he can obtain a model which is sufficiently realistic to be used for economic analysis and forecasting, or whether further research is needed.
Professor Johnston deals with some of the fields in which econometrics is important—studies of consumer behaviour, for example, and the behaviour of firms—and the working out of econometric models which attempt to consider the whole economy, and talks about three distinct forms. The first aggregate models he regards as rather crude:
"The crudest level of aggregation in a macro-model would attempt to describe the functioning of the economy by means of a set of econometric equations explaining only about six basic variables such as consumption expenditure, investment expenditure, exports, imports, the consumer price level, and the wage-rate."
The second form he gives is that of fully disaggregated models, which is an entirely different approach to econometric model building pioneered by Professor Orcutt, who urges that research should fix on the level of the individual decision-making unit—household, firm, bank or local government agency.
This is one of the difficulties in dealing with forecasting, that we are so often trying to deal with the aggregation of a myriad of individual decisions of individual firms, Government Departments, local authorities, regions and groups of industries. We are affected by decisions in foreign countries over which we have no control. This all goes to building up the picture.
The third form the professor talks of is planning models and, in particular, the

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Stone planning model for the United Kingdom, which, he says,
"… is essentially different in character from the short-run models that we have described.… It is first of all concerned with longer-term objectives for Professor Stone has argued rightly that we have been exceptionally preoccupied in this country in recent years with a stream of short-term crises and have had no longer-term objective to guide our short-term actions."
He then deals with one or two very special problems.
It seemed to us that, if we are to improve our forecasting, whether in the short or in the long term, this kind of quantitative economic analysis is needed. We can do this only if we improve our statistical services along the lines suggested in our Report. There is no doubt that, in the last 20 years, there has been wide confusion between short-term and long-term economic planning or at least attempts at such. Many people would argue that we have never really succeeded in planning for the short or the long term. This does not mean that we should not try, however, or that it is wrong to try.
After all, for those of us who are Christians, the fact that we are not very good Christians does not mean that Christianity is invalid. It has been going for 2,000 years, but so far we have been trying to plan for only 20. So perhaps there is some hope for us yet, even for some of the sinners opposite——
Mr. Michael Hordern: In 2,000 years?
Mr. Hamling: One never knows. After all, I am sure that even hon. Members opposite believe in immortality.
One of our difficulties in the last 20 years has been stop-go, which is a product of the short-term mind. Certainly, since last July, we have been back in the "Selwyn Lloyd" mode. I am using that expression, Mr. Speaker, not disrespectfully but in a historic sense, because there is no doubt that it will go down in history to describe the era of stop-go.
This certainly contradicts the Government's long-term aim to expand industrial investment and production. There seems a contradiction between the aims of short-term and those of long-term forecasting here. This may be because
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our forecasting techniques are not accurate enough but so far we have not achieved satisfactory planning because those techniques are insufficiently refined.
The article in Economic Trends deals with statistics for research in short-term forecasting. It is unfortunate that it has not caught up with the idea that we ought to think more of long-term planning, but perhaps we cannot have everything in five minutes. The recommendation that this kind of research should be developed ought to commend itself to the Government.
Our later recommendations deal with manpower and the setting up of a Standing Committee on social statistics. Obviously, we cannot think only in terms of economic statistics. About 20 years ago, economic surveys were presented annually to the House by the post-war Labour Government, and a very important part of them was manpower considerations. Perhaps if those surveys had been continued, and particularly if research had continued into the compilation of manpower statistics initiated in those early post-war years, we might have been saved many of the difficulties which we face today.
Our final recommendation in the Ninth Special Report deals with the place of the C.S.O. in the hierarchy of government. Recommendation (23) says:
"The Treasury should review the position of the C.S.O. in the Government machine with the object of enhancing the co-ordinating role of the C.S.O. and their authority at ministerial level."
From our point of view, the exercise would fail unless this recommendation were accepted or at least treated with the seriousness with which it was presented. The reply of the Government, however, is:
"The position of the C.S.O. in the Government machine has recently been reviewed, and the Government is satisfied that it is best left where it is."
I hope that that is not the verdict of the House. I hope that my hon. Friend, when he replies, will tell us that the Government have thought again about it.
The Government's observation on our recommendation continues:
"The co-ordinating rôle of the C.S.O. is best exercised at a point in the Government machine which is detached from both political and Departmental interest; and the Cabinet Office combines this advantage with the office

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service facilities of an ordinary Government Department."
In our view, the Cabinet Office is too much under the influence of the Treasury. The Treasury, in this context, is a short-run Department and not the long-run Department that the situation demands. We want to get away from the Treasury. We would much prefer to see the C.S.O. where the D.E.A. now is in the Government, because this is concerned with economic planning—and the Treasury is not and never has been. The Treasury is concerned with collecting money and trying to see that no one spends it. It always fails dismally at that as well.
We want to see the C.S.O. given real status in the Government, where statisticians will be involved in policy making, where they will be concerned with the long-term direction of the economy. In the long run, this is the best way in which the statisticians can serve the Government and the nation. I hope that the Report will be received sympathetically by the House and that, in reply, my hon. Friend will give us some good answers on behalf of the Government.
4.33 p.m.
Sir John Rodgers: I hope that the House will not resent my brief intervention. I am aware that I have not given adequate attention, thought and reading to this excellent Report. But even from the cursory study that I have been able to make, I realise that I can congratulate those members of the Estimates Committee who have given so much time and thought to what is obviously a splendid Report. I hope that the Government will regard the recommendations in a sympathetic manner. The Report is a great step forward.
I intervene only because I have had a great deal to do with statistics, both as a businessman and as a Minister at the Board of Trade, where the statistical side came under me. I have the highest regard and respect for the C.S.O. statisticians and those at the Board of Trade and at the various other statistical sections in the Government. Individually, they are first rate and they work hard and intelligently. Nevertheless, I am acutely aware that most of the improvements in the Government's statistical services have not come from suggestions
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within the Government, but as a result of pressures from outside.
I recall stumping the country as a very young man and writing articles on the need for a census of distribution. I was in my 20s and my party was then in office. There was a good deal of opposition. People thought I was being idiotic in thinking that such a thing was the function of government. Nevertheless, we now have a census of distribution and it has been followed by a census of production.
We must not just look to the Civil Service to say what statistics should be gathered or co-ordinated. Indeed, while I do not denigrate the excellence of the Report in any way, I believe that even more than what is suggested in the Report is required. The Report brings out clearly that most business firms regard themselves as suppliers of Government statistics rather than as users. Paragraph 60 of the Report says:
"…. in Your Committee's view it is undesirable, that the government statistical service should regard industry primarily as a source of information rather than as a consumer of information whose wants are to be satisfied and whose appetites should be encouraged and developed. It is Your Committee's view that the development of industrial statistics in all their facets is of such great importance that there is a need for an authority above the level of departmental statistical divisions to coordinate all current and future activities."
I entirely endorse that view and I support the recommendation for a central register, a place where one can see all the statistics currently available and where all the data which Government Departments can supply is made available I hope that the Government will accept the need for such a central co-ordinating body.
In addition, it would be in the interest of all of us, in Government, Opposition and in business as a whole, if there were also a standing liaison committee to coordinate the work in relation to all the statistics that are required and could be made available. Many statistics are collected but they are not made available. They have been collected, but no one sees them and they are not analysed or tabulated sufficiently. A great deal more could be done with the statistics which have already been collected, but which are unanalysed and are therefore unavailable.
The Government should consider the establishment of a body representing such

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people as the C.B.I., various trade associations, the Institute of Statisticians, the Royal Statistical Society, various market research organisations and many others to see what information should be made available to industry and commerce. I am sure that industry would be prepared to pay for this information. At present, one gets a dusty answer from most Government Departments if one asks for statistics to be broken down in an unaccustomed way. There is nothing wrong with the Civil Service attitude but it is simply that no one believes this provision of special statistics to be a function of government.
I believe that these statistics could be supplied and tabulated by the Departments and a charge made. If we go into the Common Market, as I hope and believe we will, many statistics will be needed. For example, motor manufacturers get the trade figures about vehicle imports. These are broken down into commercial or passenger vehicles, but that is not sufficiently helpful. The Customs and Excise has all the details of the imports and it would greatly help the export drive and improve our position in relation to approaching entry into the Common Market if these figures were broken down as to source or country of origin and types or make of vehicle.
All this information is available. The car manufacturers would be happy to pay for it. There are a hundred and one different examples where industries of various kinds know that information is available in Government Departments, but find it extremely hard to extract it. Even where they can get it, they find that it is difficult to get it out in time for their purpose.
Therefore, in addition to the proposed committee to look into the use of computers, I suggest most sincerely, both as a businessman and as someone who at one time had something to do on the Government side, that a body should be set up to liaise with industry. Mention has been made of advertising the availability of the information, but I think that it is much more important to have a running liaison service so that industry may know what statistics are available and suggest to the Government new figures that should be extracted. A charge could be made, as I say, for the tabulation and production of the information that industry needs.
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It would be a service for which I know industry would be quite prepared to pay. Again, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his Committee on the excellence of this document and I hope that the Government will consider my suggestion for a permanent business liaison committee.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. R. F. H. Dobson: I start my remarks with a testimonial to two of my hon. Friends who have been associated with the work of the Sub-Committee on Economic Affairs—the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling), who acted as its chairman in its later stages, and my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray), who was his predecessor before being elevated to his present position in the Government. I can best give them their testimonial by repeating words used by one of my colleagues and friends who works at the University of Bristol after the publication of the Report. He thought that this was one of the best six Reports of the Estimates Committee since the war.
That was not said from any position of particular friendship, or to persuade me to carry on with my association with the Estimates Committee, but expressed a genuine feeling that there was in the Report something of value to the country, and certainly of value to the academics and the statisticians.
It is strange that every few days we hear of Government statistics of various kinds and one constantly meets people who say that there is not enough of them, or that they are collected badly, or that there is not enough co-ordination between Government Departments. Much of the Report always seems to lead back to the sort of recommendations that emerged at the last meeting of the Committee, so it does not seem possible to over-stress the importance of what is said.
I must confess, however, to a little disappointment at the Government's attitude to the recommendations, and I want, in that connection, to put my own statistics before the House. Of the 23 recommendations presented to the Government, it seems that three have been officially anticipated and that 10 have been accepted for action. The

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Government want to give further consideration to seven, and three recommendations have been rejected.
Hon. Members may query my statistics, but the important thing is not so much their accuracy as the fact that in my view it is the most important recommendations that have been rejected. It is the significance of those that are rejected to which I want to draw particular attention.
All of us felt that control of Government statistical information was a crucial adjunct to the additional planning we on this side want. It is true that the Government have agreed to look at the recommendation again. The observation on Recommendation (23) is that
"The position of the C.S.O. in the Government machine has recently been reviewed …"
but adds—and this is why I put this in the rejection class:
"… the Government is satisfied that it is best left where it is."
I believe that very few people take the same view.
The Government have accepted some extremely useful recommendations, and I would draw attention to paragraph 107 of the Report, which my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West has also mentioned. This refers to the C.S.O. as a central organisation. The Committee was very much inclined not to lay down any hard and fast ideas about where the C.S.O. should be situated—we thought that it was not our job to do that. We made some suggestions, but above all else, we did not want it to remain under Treasury control in its present form.
We accepted what Government witnesses said about its remaining independent and above the political battle and not being associated directly with Government Departments, but we wanted it to report directly to a Cabinet Minister. If the Government are serious on this point, as we hope they will be after this debate, it is to be hoped that they will again look at this matter.
The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir J. Rodgers) spoke of publicity in a general and in a particular sense, and Recommendation (5) is very important in that connection. Once again, I was a little disappointed by the reply from the Government. Although I do not put the
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recommendation in the totally rejected class—perhaps one might say that it is in the pending file—and while I accept the observation that a mere catalogue would be of no use, the Government did not seem to treat the recommendation with the urgency one would have wished.
They cannot overlook the evidence of other individuals, other Government Departments and firms which made it clear that there was need for a more comprehensive guide to official and semiofficial statistics. In many cases we were guided by Professor Pyatt, who suggested there was no way of getting the information unless the Government undertook to provide a suitable guide. In connection with both Recommendations (5) and (6), advertising—if that is the right word—of information would be very valuable.
If I have a slight criticism to make of the Report it is that, for various reasons, it does not lay enough stress on regional and sub-regional statistics although we mention this subject several times, and it is commented on in paragraphs 92 and 93. We had a difficult choice to make in this connection because, as is mentioned in paragraph 95, we knew that an inquiry was being conducted into regional planning statistics by Mr. Jackson and so we were slightly inhibited from making a very stringent comment on the matter at that time. Nevertheless, we were fully seized of the feeling that sub-regional and regional statistics are very important.
Although we do not make the point, I repeat that there is a need for statistical information about public corporations, with their differing boundaries in different parts of the country. Without this information we cannot relate region with region or sub-region with the whole region. It is useful and very necessary to have this information in order to know something of the split-up in the country.
The Report itself—I certainly do not want to get technical about it—had some things to say in a futuristic manner. The hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern), in another debate yesterday, complained of the use of economic models. I hope that today he will not follow those remarks from the Opposition Front Bench. I had the impression that he did not think that the way in which we could plan the economy was by the

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use of models. I draw attention to Professor Moser's evidence, on pages 353 and 354. It is true that that evidence was connected with educational matters, but it seemed to me that this was the way in which we could design a model economy which would give us some of the answers.
It is not that they would always be accurate, but they would be trend answers which would always be useful and if we used them we would have the information about the economy much sooner. I do not know whether I have gone too far in suggesting that because Professor Moser was rather cautious in what he said about things outside his field of study, but I think that we can take a lesson from what he said in favour of our use of economic models.
The Report itself has done several things and I want to mention three of them particularly. First, it has opened discussion on the Government's statistical services. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West has already mentioned two distinguished periodicals which have given the matter publicity and have mentioned the Report. The Report was mentioned in the week in which it came out, in the Economist, where it was given a good write-up.
Secondly, probably as a result of its technical detail, the Report has stimulated fresh thought in the field of statistics and econometrics. Thirdly, it would be fair to say that for the statisticians themselves it has thrown a better light on the classes of statisticians and the job they have to do. It was very fitting that when they gave evidence the statisticians appeared to feel very much the Cinderellas of the services when involved in decision-making and not having the opportunity at all times to put forward their point of view. The Committee considered and listened to their pleas for a possible new class of econometricians, but I was not sure that we could go that far.
I hope that the House will agree that this has been a useful job which has been done in the Committee. I hope very much that the Government will reconsider the major points I have tried to bring before them. If many people in the country, and certainly hon. Members on these benches, accept that the basis of planning starts with good statistical information and that here we have
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tried to take a very careful and determined look at this matter, they will see that this Report may be vital to our economic recovery today.
4.54 p.m.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: The excellent Report produced by the sub-committee of the Estimates Committee on the Government statistical services is a testimony to the stoical endurance of the members of that subcommittee in face of an overwhelming avalanche of fact. As Henry Adams once reminded us, practical politics is the art of ignoring facts. That is a charge which cannot be levelled at the members of the sub-committee. The Committee has made a series of very sensible recommendations which could be summarised as serving four primary objectives.
The first is to enhance the quality, standing and resources of the statistical departments and particularly the Central Statistical Office. The second is to enhance the compatibility of different official statistics, and indeed of official and private statistics. The third is to improve the range and structure, and, indeed, the value of official statistics by demonstrating much more effectively the scope, availability and relevance of statistics to those who both provide and use them. The fourth is to encourage the switch to computers.
No one, I think, would find fault with any of these admirable objectives, for we live—this I think is beyond dispute—on the threshold of the numerical age, the age of quantification. Whether we like it or not, whether we understand or fail to understand its great dangers, we shall have to learn to live with it.
Two other objectives deserve to be considered seriously. One I had hoped to find discussed at great length in this Report, but it is barely mentioned. The other stems directly from the likely consequence of a successful application to join Europe. The latter obviously was outside the Sub-Committee's immediate terms of reference, but the second objective of compatibility must now be considered on a much larger scale and a much wider canvas.
Our statistics will have to be compatible with those of the Common Market. They will have to measure the

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same things in the same way and proceed from similar definitions. This presents a very considerable challenge which, in my experience, will not be met in under a very considerable number of years. Unless it is met, however, the estimates of markets and efficiencies—these are things we shall have to investigate on going into Europe—and estimates of incomes and investments will be largely misleading.
The first objective I refer to only briefly as later it will form my main theme. It rests simply on the proposition that unless statisticians shout from the rooftops that their representation of reality is at its best impressionist, they cannot complain if politicians, forever seeking certainty where there is none, misuse the products of their labour and blame them and their figures when the structures which ambitious Governments inevitably seek to build on those representations collapse under their own weight and sink into the sands without reaching a firm bedrock of reality.
It was Bertrand Russell who reminded us that although it may seem a paradox,
"all science is dominated by the idea of approximation".
Throughout this Report there is an assumption that statistical representation can achieve a degree of perfection which I believe to be unattainable. More statisticians, more computers, more compliant and numerically articulate industrialists, and the statistical millenium will be at hand. This is not only an untenable assumption; it is dangerous, and I hope to demonstrate why.
It was Francis Bacon who once said that
"all governments are obscure and invisible".
We have had some further experience of Governments since that was written, and I think the general view today is that they have improved their visibility without reducing their obscurity, and, of course, we do not always like what we see. This Report is a Report on the visibility of the machinery of government, for statistics and information are the lifeblood of Governments, and while a Government may often govern much less effectively than is justified by the quality of its information, few Governments except those fortunately presided
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over by the rare statesman of genius—and we must exempt the present Government from that—ever govern better than the quality of their information permits.
But there is already here a danger which is better faced than ignored. It is a danger which occurs at two levels, as it were. The first is the level to which I have already referred—the belief that an almost perfect, which would imply almost perfectly up-to-date, statistical representation is possible. The second is a natural second tier, for it is very easy for a Government who have increased the range of the State's binoculars, bringing ever wider and more detailed economic landscapes into view, to succumb to a major temptation. In the economic and social field the state cannot pretend to control or be held responsible for what it cannot see or measure.
The moment new planes of economic activity are uncovered and brought into vision, the critics get to work and an extension of centralised control, once this is seen to be possible, becomes for many immediately and overwhelmingly desirable. All the false analogies swim into view—"We must control the levers of power". "We must inject a new dynamism into the economy". "We must take the brakes off" or "put them on". "Give us the facts, and we will finish the job". "Let us plan our way out of this mess". If only we could measure the present, it is implied, we could then forecast the future, and then, having forecast it, ensure that the forecasts are fulfilled.
As the illusion of omnipotence perpetually fades, we are tempted to conclude that better, earlier, or more comprehensive statistics and economic information would guarantee the success which has so far eluded us. This belief has been greatly reinforced by the advent of the computer, and with some solid justification, for the appetite and digestive powers of that machine are so prodigious that statistical performance has, in a sense, broken through the sound barrier.
But I am not so much afraid of statistical prodigality, for that will run up against one scarce resource which computers cannot increase. I refer to the number of human beings with the necessary powers of statistical and analytical

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judgment to put all this material to some constructive use, to improve the quality of decision, for that is all that matters, and that is the end product.
What I am much more concerned about is the danger that the inherent weaknesses of all statistical representations of national economic or social matters will be overlooked and that sheer statistical abundance—the prodigality of the computer; the prodigality of an enhanced and reinforced Government statistical machine, enormously reinforced by the power of the computer—will be allowed to swamp the necessary fundamental caution and scepticism with which all statistical output, however respectable and virtuous its parentage, should be treated.
What I am pleading for is that one simple concession should be made to this situation by all the statistical departments of State and, indeed, by the Central Statistical Office, and by all Ministers who present quanitative information to the House of Commons. I ask that they will always state at the foot of every stable, at the bottom of every chart, at the beginning of every numerical declaration about the balance of trade, the balance of payments, or the growth of the national product, the statistical limits of error in their data.
Professor Stone entitled the very interesting memorandum which he contributed to the Sub-Committee—
"Official statistics: A golden treasury or a working tool?"
I am not quite sure what his own choice was. Even if the best statistics are fine gold in the arsenal of economic management, they are very largely gold which bears no hallmark.
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that, since all the figures which Ministers have to report from time to time are themselves the result of a series of complex statistical data, it would be well-nigh impossible for them to lay down any satisfactory criteria of error for the figures.
Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman makes my case, because, if the foundations are insecure, how much less secure must be the structures which are built upon them. We have to take these structures
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upon trust, knowing full well that they vary, not from 24 to 22 carat gold, but from 24 carat to gold plate. If my impression of much of the economic and statistical output is any guide, there is a great deal more gold plate about the place than there is 24 carat gold.
Over and over again we have heard in the Chamber about whether the gross national product will increase by 2·4 per cent. or 2·4per cent., whether unemployment has gone from 1·8 per cent. to 2·1 per cent., or in the other direction, and whether the distribution of incomes has changed by 0·5 per cent. or 07 per cent. in favour or against some group.
With humble apologies to those on both sides of the House who may feel affronted, this is the most terrifying nonsense. It is terrifying because it is so plausible, so respectable, and apparently so important. But it remains nonsense, none the less. This is an ambitious and, it may well appear to hon. Members on both sides, an arrogant claim, but I hope that hon. Members will allow me to develop the argument before they finalise their conclusion.
Throughout his evidence Professor Stone stressed what he described as
"the operational significance that statistical information acquires in an era of planning."
He suggested that "nobody planned" in the 1930s, a point of view with which I would quarrel, and he suggested two conclusions. The first was that
"much more is going to be demanded of official statistics in the future than has been demanded in the past",
a statement which I would both endorse and qualify. The second was that the remedy for a failure to match economic data with planning ambitions
"lies with Parliament and not with the statisticians".
That may well be so, but the bargain which I hope Parliament will strike with the statisticians is that, if we provide them with the resources to produce more and, as they and we must hope, better statistics, they will hall-mark the output so that we will be able to distinguish the working tools from the impressionist numerical paintings. We are leaving behind, hopefully and rightly, the concept of caveat emptor in trade, and I hope that we may also do so in statistics.
I will illustrate this argument from two fields of statistical output, both of them much discussed. In each case I shall be

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relying heavily on the work done by Professor Morgenstern at Princeton on this subject, and, although much of the data he uses is American, I believe his conclusions to be wholly relevant to our experience. I have seen nowhere any argument to suggest that they are not.
Before turning directly to Professor Morgenstern's analysis, I want to stress what I believe to lie at the heart of this problem. A very large volume of statistics is based on attempts to measure, with varying degrees of precision, physical flows of goods. This can often be done with great accuracy, but generally these measurements do not acquire economic significance unless and until they have been valued. Every inventory of stock involves economic judgments. Every analysis and valuation of debtors involves a probability distribution through time. Every calculation of depreciation—that is, every balance sheet in the country—involves an assessment of economic as well as of physical obsolescence. We start, as it were, with cotton wool and not with marble.
Yet, once the judgments have been made, the raw data is presented by accountants and statisticians in the form of balance sheets, profit and loss accounts, operating accounts and statistical returns, which define these judgments and detail these quantities to the last Is., and indeed, to the last penny.
The point that I seek to make is that no computer, no doubling of statistical staff, nor regional government, no increase in the willingness of firms or trade associations to assemble and provide data, can escape from the basic limitations inherent in the data itself. We may improve the quality, but we cannot possibly eliminate the influence of judgment and measurement on the basic raw material of almost any statistical series of any significance to the State.
This is perhaps the most fundamental reason why the control of complex economic systems always has been, is, and, as I see it, will remain, infuriatingly difficult and unpredictable. The vision of statistical perfection will always recede, like a mirage, into the horizon of uncertainty.
To illustrate my argument, I shall now refer to the work of three men, all of whom seem to have been studiously ignored by the practitioners of national
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economic information—Simon Kuznets and Oskar Morgenstern in America and Harry Burton in the United Kingdom. In his great study of national income statistics in the United States, Kuznets reached the conclusion that the utmost refinement of technique—I stress that phrase—left a margin of error in national income statistics of plus or minus 10 per cent. Sixty per cent. of the 520 cells from which the aggregates were constructed in the National Bureau of Economic Research Paper on the subject had inherent margins of error of over 40 per cent. On these results, Morgenstern comments as follows:
"The almost religious attention paid to Gross National Product would lead one to expect that criticism would be reacted to sharply. This has not been the case".
Even the President's Council of Economic Advisers, Morgenstern says,
"have never investigated their accuracy and as a consequence draw wholly unwarranted conclusions from alleged 1 per cent. changes of these great aggregates".
This charge can be levelled at many others. Some years ago, the reliability ratings awarded to our own national statistics were carefully considered by Harry Burton, who reached almost identical conclusions. As far as one can judge, the principal reaction here in the United Kingdom and in the United States is silence—"Let us not talk about it; it is too embarrassing". I believe that in Germany—I say at once that my sources for this belief are second-hand—the Government have forbidden the agencies responsible for producing national income data to indicate the errors underlying the source data. That is, at least, a positive reaction.
The criticism of national income statistics must, of course, almost, though not necessarily, by definition apply equally to the currently fashionable discourse on growth rates. On this, Morganstern's comments are truly devastating. A growth rate of two significant digits, he argues,
"is impossible to establish. Even the first digit is in grave doubt. Yet the emphasis of public discussion is on the second digit, and usually the first decimal … as if a distinction between 3·2 and 3·3 per cent. were really possible. Such contentions are entirely unwarranted A growth rate simply cannot be computed with the stated or demanded degree of refinement and reliability."
Later, he suggests that,
"Precise uses of 'growth rates' are entirely inadmissible whether for comparing different countries or short periods of the same country."

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I hope that I have by now said enough to substantiate the argument that there is an urgent and overriding national statistical requirement. The limits of error of our principle national indices—shall we say the ones regularly and continually used by politicans and economic journalists—must no longer be tucked out of sight in "Sources and methods", a document which seldom sees the light of day. They must be attached to their statistics like the kitemark of the British Standards Institution or the stars attached by the A.A. and the R.A.C. to the names of their listed hotels. [An HON. MEMBER: "Up to five stars?"] Yes, five stars, if they are good enough. It is rather more important that we should be able to grade the quality of our national statistics than that we should be able to grade the quality of our hotels.
I turn now to another subject touched on in the Report. The sub-committee was, rightly, concerned about the statistical relationships between Government and industry. Yet the evidence presented by industry was, as I see it, drawn from a very narrow segment. Apart from the Confederation of British Industry, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders and the Royal Statistical Society—which, I imagine, would not wish to be classed as an industry in any sense—Courtaulds was the only industrial organisation which gave direct evidence to the Committee. This is a pity, for though many witnesses were aware that few industrial and commercial organisations have the statistical resources and competence of a Courtaulds, the experience and attitudes of small and medium-size organisations would have been a useful counterweight.
Professor Stone argued in his memorandum that,
"In order to plan or control a system it is necessary to understand its dynamics",
and be believes that much can be done by securing a sophisticated return of information from a comparatively small number of, as he defines them, "large articulate firms". I would not dispute this, but it is precisely in the other area, the very large number of medium and small statistically inarticulate firms, that a great improvement in the whole quality of numerical analysis can make such a
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vast contribution to their own and national productivity.
Underlying much of the evidence bearing on this point is an assumption that all that needs to be done is to inject larger and larger numbers of statisticians and economists into Government and industry. If I may say so, this indicates a rather naive approach to the problem. Where people of these qualifications are most needed, they are, paradoxically, least likely to be used intelligently, for where they are most needed is precisely in those firms and industries where the old saws about, "Lies, damned lies and statistics" are likely to raise the loudest laughs.
The vast majority of concerns in the United Kingdom undoubtedly make far too little use of the data and techniques which are available and which, for all their imperfections, are valuable. Instead, there is management by instinct, management by private data in little black books. Forecasting the economic weather with computers is derided, and what matters is the wet finger to the wind.
But this produces a curious situation. A great deal of knowledge and data becomes highly personalised, and the arteries of information coincide closely with the arteries' of power. Statisticians and others brought in to improve the information system will be accused of seeking to change the power structure, and to their own advantage—possibly, but not, not invariably, a correct judgment. This is a sociological problem of the greatest importance, because it is not the statisticians who need to be numerically more articulate but the managers and executives, particularly at middle management level. This poses a much larger problem of education and time, and, if there is one thing we are short of in Britain today, it is time.
I could not endorse more wholeheartedly the evidence of those witnesses who stressed the contribution which economic model building could make to our understanding of national and economic problems. I was interested when the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Dobson) referred to Professor Moser's evidence, because Professor Moser said that the model of the education system to which he had referred will rarely be a sophisticated description of the education system and

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its great merit is that it forces one to think "comprehensively". Perhaps his use of the word "comprehensively" is ambivalent in that context, but I was very pleased to see that Professor Moser said of this model that
"It is no better than the statistics one feeds into it"—
referring again to the point which I was making earlier.
Properly and intelligently done, with appropriate allowances for the quality of data, this model building can be immensely fruitful, and undoubtedly, by the end of the century, we shall see in model form on computers representations of reality which are at present almost undreamed of. But, until we have in industry a whole generation of executives who understand just what an economic model is, we shall not get very far. Most of them can understand the need for a mock-up of an airliner's fuselage or the body of a new car, but the model of a company's marketing or cost structure, festooned with mathematical formulae and oozing magnetic tape, sends shivers down the spines of most executives, and I think it lowers the temperature appreciably in this Chamber.
This is the transformation which is really needed, a transformation which will not be brought merely by increasing the number of statisticians in industry. It may be brought about, but then only slowly, by a steady and perceptible rise in the intellectual quality of all the main streams of management recruitment. This is the fundamental issue. Nothing less will suffice, and the other solutions are, in my view, much less than second best. On the whole, they do not work at all.
5.20 p.m.
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: I echo the congratulations that have already been given to the Committee on the work it has done. However, I am very disappointed at the attitude to the Report that the Government seem to be taking.
It is not very often that I refer in a speech here to both a former Liberal Prime Minister and a former Conservative Prime Minister, but I think that it may be apt to do so on this occasion. It is said of the late David Lloyd George, probably quite erroneously, that to avoid worrying about the problems of a par-
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ticular day during the First World War he used to read a newspaper of a year previously. Thus, he would today be reading a newspaper of 4th May, 1966. He used to say, "Look at all the fuss they made about those things and nothing happened. Therefore, there is no need to get excited about things now."
It may be all very well to maintain the calm of a politician, but it is no use for statisticians. To quote from a later Prime Minister, Mr. Harold Macmillan when Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget speech of 17th April, 1956:
"… I am told that some of our statistics are too late to be as useful as they ought to be. We are always, as it were, looking up a train in last year's Bradshaw."
He said later:
"More complete and more up-to-date information will not only help in the proper ordering of the national economy, but it will help industries themselves by enabling them to foresee more accurately the conditions in which they will have to operate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April 1956; Vol. 551, c. 867–9.]
The first thing we must do when we consider a statistical service, whether Government or otherwise, is the functions of one that is efficient. I suggest that there are three essential functions. First, it must correct the relevant, and probably only the relevant, statistics, because too much can be nearly as bad as too little. Secondly, it must be able to present and publish information in such a way that industry and the general public can appreciate it. Thirdly, it must be able to analyse statistical information and produce some relevant conclusions. I shall not follow the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) in his scepticism about some of those conclusions.
Let us consider the Government statistical service in the light of those criteria, first, from the point of view of collecting required information in various spheres. I am afraid that we must come to the conclusion that very few of the essential data are available. I shall not quote every possible example, but we could quote many. When we consider the figures of migration, for example, we find that the annual Command Paper has now been discontinued, with the winding up of the Oversea Migration Board, and there are no later figures available.
Mr. Hamling: Is my hon. Friend aware that the figures of migration published a

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century ago are better than they are now?
Mr. Roberts: That may well be true.
Again, in the sphere of the balance of payments there are no figures of portfolio investment or oil industry investment by country. There is no figure of the stake of overseas countries in Britain, and that is very important, particularly for some of us in areas like South Bedfordshire.
When we consider simple things like housing we find that there is inadequate information on rents. There is no official figure of the average local authority rents in England and Wales, and there is very little about private sector rents or on distribution of tenants according to the ranges of rents paid. There is very little information about house prices apart from those asked for purely new houses.
We could go on and on in this way. For example, the published figures of employment vacancies are really no indication of the true position, for we know the problem of married women who are only paying industrial injury benefit contributions. The problem of car registrations is another that affects my part of the world; there are no figures by make of car. Similarly, no national figures about local government elections are available for parties—hence the marginal disputes between the two sides of the House as to various turnabouts and so on in local politics.
The matter can well be summarised by what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology said on 13th February. He told the House:
"One of the difficulties about discussing this subject"—
he was referring to the brain drain, which is probably one of the most vital national issues—
"is that the facts and statistics that are necessary are not fully available. I do not criticise the party opposite for the decision it took in the past, but this difficulty continues. There were understandable reasons, but, having discontinued the statistics, it is difficult to get accurate figures."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February, 1967; Vol. 741, c. 137–138.]
That is a fair summary of the position. The figures in many directions are simply not available. In addition, there is the genera] delay in obtaining figures. The supreme example of that is the census of population. There was a fairly
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thorough analysis quite promptly in 1951, but we are still waiting for many of the conclusions and findings of the 1961 census, although computer facilities have greatly improved in the intervening period.
A simple thing like the Annual Abstract of Statistics is now running late. We are now getting it towards the end of the year, whereas a short while ago we would get it towards the summer. That sort of thing happens right along the line. There is perpetual delay with the census of production. To quote Mr. Macmillan again, late statistics are very little good. There certainly is a problem with the absence of statistics and delay in their collection.
Mr. Will Griffiths: I am intervening only because of my hon. Friend's mention of Mr. Macmillan. I shall not launch into an illiterate attack upon statisticians, but I hope that unlike the hon. Member for Porthsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd), who is leaving the Chamber, my hon. Friend will pay some attention to ideas. I was in the House when we used to wait every year for the Economic Survey. We had a wealth of statistics but no ideas, and, anyway, the statistics were inaccurate every year. I do not see that there is any difference of one gets them in May instead of November, if they are not accurate.
Mr. Roberts: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am fully aware of the shortage of ideas when the Macmillan Government were in office.
Statistics are certainly not available in many spheres, and there is delay in obtaining them.
I turn now to the presentation and publication of statistics, and for very good reasons I shall confine myself to the Monthly Digest and the Annual Abstract. Perhaps I ought to explain that there is a division within statisticians. There are those who are concerned with industrial problems and there are those who used to be called source statisticians. It has often been a problem for those involved in things like marketing and operational research to find the sources of statistics, official or otherwise. I shall confine myself to the Monthly Digest and the Annual Abstract, because often that is all we have available to us.

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As has been said, there is a great shortage of comprehensive guides to official and unofficial statistics. Probably the most famous contribution in this respect is that made by Professor Kendal—"Sources and Nature of Statistics of the United Kingdom", which is still a classic of its kind. A contribution was also made in 1966 by "National Income Statistics, Sources and Methods". Generally, however, there is still a great shortage of information about statistical sources, which means that many people, including even industrial statisticians, have often been groping in the dark when trying to get pieces of information, and the problem for industrialists as such has been even more acute. They have not know where to find the information which they have sought.
One of the problems associated with the actual statistics when they are found is that there is often no guide at all to the degree of error associated with them.
Mr. Hamling: The statisticians do not know, do they?
Mr. Roberts: It is not quite as simple as that. For example, there has been some contribution about the relevant range of error in the National Income Statistics, but it is true that in the great bulk of the work in the Annual Abstract there is hardly any guide to the range of error.
Mr. Hamling: Would not my hon. Friend agree with me that the degree of error is sometimes mentioned in the introduction which will refer to a figure, say, five years hence, and that five years later it is sometimes discovered that the degree of error should have been twice as much? What use, therefore, are current statistics?
Mr. Roberts: That is a point. However, one should attempt to establish some sort of error margin in data and some attempt has been made to provide it in the National Income Statistics. In general, there is little or no guide and this leads to considerable problems. It has been said that politicians quote what they regard as devastating figures without realising how great is the range of error associated with those figures.
Mr. Hordern: What the hon. Gentleman is saying is most interesting, but
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does he not draw the conclusion that, if statistics themselves are sometimes in doubt and have a variable value content, it is unwise to draw up a National Plan upon such statistics, a plan which may be acted upon by the whole economy and the whole country?
Mr. Roberts: There is an old saying that some information is better than no information at all. Obviously, anyone who plans an industry or a country, or anything else, has to work according to what figures are available.
Mr. Hamling: Will not my hon. Friend note in passing that we now have it from the Opposition Front Bench that it is the considered view of the Opposition that national planning should never be attempted because we might be wrong?
Mr. Roberts: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is far better to depend on some plan, some model, even on the match sticks theory. One has to work to what figures one has. The point which I was making was that the figures generally have a considerable margin of error.
For instance, the figures of the 1961 Census estimated that there were about 1,000,802 homes without water closets. I do not know how, but it has now been found that the figure should have been nearer 1,500,000, a difference of about 492,000. That may not seem to matter very much, but it matters to those 492,000 households without water closets.
There has to be some guide as to the level of error involved in such statistics. There ought to be footnotes explaining the nature of the tables with which one is dealing. There are often changes in the criteria by which certain data are measured. I can give a simple example. Judging from the figures of juvenile delinquency for 1963 and 1964, one might conclude at a glance that juvenile delinquency fell between 1963 and 1964. In fact, that was not the case. What the figures in the Annual Abstract fail to show is that in February, 1964, the age of legal responsibility was altered from 8 to 10. This vital piece of information completely changes the nature of the figures. It is, therefore, important that there should be footnotes to explain the nature of official statistics and as far as possible to provide some criteria of their accuracy.

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There is a great shortage of these official publications. The number in this country is considerably less than that in many other industrialised countries, although the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Economic Affairs are to be congratulated on the number of figures which they are now making available. However, in other directions there is a shortage of statistics. Hon. Members may be surprised to learn that the Annual Abstract is far smaller than that published in most other industrialised countries. It is far smaller than that of the United States, and, what is more surprising, smaller, I believe, than those of Switzerland, Israel or even Luxemburg.
There is a general feeling that there is a shortage of official publications giving relevant statistics. It is overwhelmingly important that there should be a resumption of the public investment white papers. There is also the need for another census of wholesale distribution. I believe that the last one was in 1950. I regret to have to say it, but the nationalised industries seem prone to discontinue their statistical publications. Among the casualties are British Railways statistics and the annual census of transport staff. Some figures seem to have disappeared altogether.
Finally, I come to the analysis of statistical data, but because I turn to it finally does not mean that I think it least important. Indeed, in many ways it is by far the most important. It is certainly the most neglected not only in Government but in private industry. Many industrial firms have statistical departments which consist of a place where weird and wonderful figures are filed and passed on to the Government when asked for. Little use of such data is made in decision taking or forecasting.
We should pay tribute to the work done by the D.S.I.R. and which is now done, partly at any rate, by the Ministry of Technology. The D.S.I.R. tried to educate private industry in operational research techniques, the use of computers, in significant factors affecting industrial production and in economic models and forecasting.
I am particularly concerned with forecasting, perhaps because at one time—I
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am sure many hon. Members will be surprised to know this—I sat at the feet of Professor Johnson, to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West referred. This was many years ago when Professor Johnson was only a humble lecturer. Although Professor Johnson may feel that he has had many men of greater ability at his feet, I have great respect for his ability and his contribution to statistics.
It is essential that we run industry and the country not only on what happened yesterday and what is happening today but also on some estimation of what will happen tomorrow. Some times those of us who, like myself, have had training in statistics ask Minister for estimates on various matters, including an estimate of what will be the position by 1968 or perhaps even 1970. We are horrified to hear time and again the sort of answer, "I am not a crystal gazer. Do not expect me to look into a crystal ball." It is time they started to look somewhere—not into crystal balls but certainly to an efficient Government statistical service which collects the necessary data, provides the public and industry with that data and draws conclusions as to what the future may bring.
5.45 p.m.
Mr. John Biffen: I apologise both to the Joint Under-Secretary of State and to the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) for not being able to stay for the remainder of the debate owing to a previous engagement. I say this because some of my remarks may modestly stray into controversy, and I regret that I will not be able to defend myself from the excellent ripostes to which I shall be subjected.
The Motion asks us to take note of the Fourth Report. That does not put a great strain on our loyalty. I am delighted to take note. The Report adds fascinating reading to the volumes we may have collected upon the development of Government policy and the weapons available to the Government for the execution of that policy, particularly upon the range of information available to the Government whenever they seek to identify those areas of the economy to which they wish to direct their interventionist appetites, appetites which are enjoyed by

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most of their supporters and which excite a certain amount of caution on the part of those of us on these Benches.
Mr. Hamling: All hon. Members opposite?
Mr. Biffen: Many of us. Certainly I have held that view ever since I have been here. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a standard speech."] We all have a standard speech which we make from time to time. I accept that there may be nothing that I say this afternoon which is not reasonably predictable. Be that as it may.
Mr. Dobson: Would the hon. Gentleman care to give the HANSARD reference of his speech. We could then look it up and this would save him the bother of delivering it again.
Mr. Biffen: That would be moving perilously near the American system of reading into the Congressional Record and that I would not wish to support.
I have three points to make. First, the general attitude towards economic statistics; secondly, the relations between Government and industry, which are specially covered from paragraph 49 onwards in the Fourth Report; thirdly, and most important, the incomes policy, which is the subject of paragraphs 87 and 91.
We delude ourselves into thinking that we live in a rather more rational and scientific age than our forebears. I fear that this is not so. I believe that we live in an age of particular mysticism and that the mystical religion today is economics.
The economists are the high priests and the statisticians are their acolytes. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) performed a great service in making out the powerful case that he did about the limits of error that there are in the figures presented to us, and on which we fashion policy. Make no mistake, it is a failing of us all to engage in "growthmanship", to suggest that power should be entrusted to us in this Chamber, because we have the ability so to arrange the affairs of the country that a certain, predetermined rate of growth in the national product, or gross domestic product, at a certain rate of consistency—I know that I will carry the hon. Member for Stoke on
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Trent, Central (Mr. Cant) with me on this—is within our grasp, if only we can have the right tools and the right responses, induced if necessary by the exercise of the right authority on the part of Government.
This is a very dangerous myth which has been with us for a long time, particularly, dare I say it, since Keynes. There is now a widespread belief that Governments, by frequent intervention with fiscal measures, can by light touches on the brake or accelerator, keep the economiy in a fairly steady condition. Even the Chancellor's conversion to the view of Professor Paish, I suspect, is prompted by a belief that at least it provides steadiness, even if it does not provide maximum growth. I am not saying that this may not be true. All that I am saying is that it is an act of faith to believe that it is true. In my view it cannot be scientifically demonstrated.
My second point has to do with the anxiety which seems to have concerned the Committee, that there should be a far freer flow of information between industry and Government concerning the major statistics of manufacturing and distributive enterprises, such as the rate of investment, level of stock and presumably their prices and the general market distribution of their products. It was widely argued that this should be done through the Economic Development Committees. I was not surprised that recommendation No. 21 said that the Economic Development Committee
"should be closely involved whenever new statistical enquiries addressed to industry are being contemplated and should have an opportunity of commenting on the form and context of questions."
This is innocent enough, but all my observations of the Economic Development Committees lead me to believe that the flow of information between the Government and industries grouped into Economic Development Committees will encourage the worst aspects of cartelisation and protection. By sharing information with the Government, industrialists will hope to hook the taxpayer and Government into pulling them out when they run into difficulties. There will be no shortage of business men who want assistance.
I am particularly sceptical when I hear that people of such distinction as Mr. Catherwood, who was schooled in

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that well-known cartel industry, the aluminium industry, saying that he would like to see amendments to the Restrictive Trades Practices legislation, and then to be told that this is what the Government propose. Equally I am sceptical to be told that the machine tool Economic Development Committee is very anxious that more information is made available about the type of machine tools now being imported. This is presumably, so that home manufacturers can be guided and taken along by the hand in an attempt to secure the market when, if they had faith in their own free enterprising ability, they should be out there, identifying what are the type of machine tools being bought by manufacturing enterprises, and deciding whether or not they can enter into this type of manufacture.
The most important part of the Report concerns the incomes policy. The Committee has given us ample evidence, in paragraphs 87–91. It is entitled, "Productivity, Prices and Incomes". The final sentence says:
"Your Committee regard … as of considerable significance in the implementation of the incomes policy and are concerned at the paucity of factual knowledge which is readily available in this field."
This is a useful starting point.
There are no recommendations, alas, arising from this, and therefore no observations, although we might have some from the Joint Under-Secretary. What worries me is that the whole basis of the prices and incomes policy proceeds on the assumption that the Government have the ability to identify and select. Once one undermines that ability, then any justice, any equity which might be claimed for the policy, falls to the ground. Yet the Joint Under-Secretary's colleague, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour comes here, week after week telling us, when we are asked, legally, to freeze some modest income arrangement, that this is a small price to pay because the policy is working and these freeze orders are for a few mavericks who seek to break the line.
However, says the hon. Gentleman, the general policy is working, and all is well. This is nonsense. He cannot stand at that Box and say, "I know that no other movements in incomes have taken place, these are the only ones and these we are freezing." He does not know
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that, it is an act of faith on his part, based upon the aggregate figure available, which covers a myriad of prices and income movements.
It so happens, from an examination of the statistics, that the movement in the aggregate figure in this credit squeeze is not significantly different from the movement of the aggregate figure in the credit squeeze of, say, Mr. Thorneycroft, when there was no thought of a prices and incomes policy. I ask the House to reflect one stage further. The information available on incomes comes, broadly, under two headings for employment purposes. There is information concerning wages and information concerning salaries.
This is an arbitrary division. For most of us, in terms of commonsense, whether a man is paid as a salaried employee or whether he earns his living by being paid a wage at an hourly rate, should not be a matter of material significance. But it is; it is vital to the working-out of this policy by virtue of the Government's statistics. Take the question of wages. The one point which is brought up is wage rates. What does the Committee say on wage rates? It says:
"Information on recognised wage rates is available but not on actual rates paid or on salary rates."
Mr. Hamling: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that there is imprecision on wage drift and on earnings also?
Mr. Biffen: Yes. Do not incite me!
Mr. Hamling: Go on; we are enjoying it.
Mr. Biffen: This is the reality behind a policy of arbitrarily moving in and setting aside the law of contract or of negotiations which have been hitherto freely undertaken between employers and employees.
Therefore, I should like to know on what basis the Government can take this interventionist and, to my mind, offensive action. Wage rates do not bear any relation to the actual level of earnings. We are told the level of earnings monthly, but there is nothing on salaries. The Government antennae are more sensitive to movements in wages than they are to movements in salaries because there is nothing to touch the antennae concerning salaries, apart from an annual index.

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It is therefore hardly surprising that one was sceptical when, on 7th April, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour on being asked about the number of employees thought to have had income increases during the period of severe restraint, said:
"The corresponding information about salary changes is not available."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th April.]
When he was asked about the number of employees whose incomes had been statutorily frozen as a result of action taken under Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act, he said that the numbers were
"29,400, but I have no reliable information about the number of employees indirectly or directly affected who may be classified as salary earners."—[OFFICIAL REPORT.]
My guess is that the 29,000 were predominantly wage employees.
Mr. Dobson: Would the hon. Gentleman give the reference in the Report?
Mr. Biffen: These are replies by the Ministry of Labour to Parliamentary Questions tabled by me.
Mr. Dobson: I thought that they were answers given by the Department in the Report we are discussing.
Mr. Biffen: No. These are examples of the inadequate statistical knowledge available to the Ministry of Labour demonstrated in questions about how the policy was working out during the period of severe restraint.
Mr. Michael Alison: My hon. Friend may recall that he asked a Question in June last year, I think, about the numbers of people employed in the salary-earning and wage-earning categories. The latest figures given were for 1961. That is referred to on page 36 of the Report.
Mr. Biffen: That is true. Another Answer which I received from the Ministry of Labour on 7th April this year was that 41 per cent. of all employees are thought by the Ministry of Labour to be trade unionists. This is a vital matter, because it is the collective bargain which is known to the Ministry of Labour much more than the private negotiation with people who are non-unionised. Therefore, in view of the 60 per cent. who are non-unionised, one is
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entitled to ask whether the Ministry knows as much about the movement of incomes of these people as they do about the movement of incomes of people whose incomes are, at least in part, determined by collective bargaining.
That question was addressed to the Minister of State at the Department of Economic Affairs earlier today. He said that the Government did know as much about the movement—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman was present. I could hardly think of a supplementary question to put. It was not the answer which I expected.
Mr. Hamling: May I suggest a supplementary question: "Is it not true that the Minister knows as little about unionists as he knows about non-unionists?"
Mr. Biffen: Yes. That was the only answer he could give, because he knew nothing.
It is on this basis that we are asked to sanction a highly controversial policy which involves Government intervention to determine individual rates of pay. We have not even started to consider how much the Government know about fringe benefits. We should not think that they are not significant, particularly as they affect salary earners at the upper end of the scale. The Hay-M.S.L. could reveal a good deal to the House about that form of emolument for higher-paid executives.
Mr. Hamling: Golden handshakes.
Mr. Biffen: I do not say that it is a bad thing; I merely say that it is a factor which must be taken into account.
But we have a Government who are congenital Nelsons whenever this question is raised. Every Tuesday evening it is the Battle of Copenhagen for the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour as he firmly fixes his spyglass to his blind eye and says, "I can see none of these difficulties. All that I can see is 20 delivery drivers of the Crown Bedding Co. or the unfortunate employees of the Rothesay Burgh Council." They can be seen; they are visible. Therefore, they incur the wrath, the intervention.
Reading this Report convinces me more than I was convinced before that there are vast areas of the most significance in the movement of incomes about which

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the Government know nothing. We must ask ourselves whether it is consistent with a free society that the Government should be given the power to know all these movements in incomes. I do not believe that it is consistent with a free society. Certainly it is not consistent with an enterprising society, with maximum initiative and opportunity, that the Government should be invited to learn about the amplitude of detail which makes up the movement of incomes. I have talked only about incomes. If I were to talk about prices, this speech would have been twice as long.
6.7 p.m.
Mr. Eric Moonman: I have no doubt that the problems set out in the Report have made it extremely difficult for parts of the prices and incomes policy to work. I agree that some of the sections in the Fourth Report bear this out. Since last July Members have spent probably 100 hours or more in examining the Tightness of the policy. This is a just criticism which can be made.
Paragraph 91 of the Report refers to the fact that the lack of implementation of the incomes policy is due in part to the lack of factual knowledge. There are two very important examples in that paragraph. However, it was a pity that the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) decided to make a political case out of the lack of statistical information, which is at the heart of today's debate. The force of his case and the energy with which he presented his arguments, which some of us on this side of the House would support, was wasted because of his desire to introduce a purely political concept.
Getting the right information is a problem. Getting information which can be properly quantified is a problem. These are the sorts of things which this debate is about. We must not drag the question of prices and incomes through this debate. The hon. Gentleman has misjudged the mood of those who wish to make a contribution to the debate. He said that his speech was predictable. He should not have bothered to make it at all. I cannot be too critical of the hon. Gentleman, because the two previous speakers—I hope that they will not take this amiss—seemed to be developing their speeches
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in such a way as to cut out the time available to other hon. Members.
I want to ask the Minister to give some reference to this important question which is raised in paragraph 91. Quite clearly, it is a major criticism. There is no reference to it in either the observations or the recommendations, and the House has a right to know about it. The fact that it is not mentioned is something which we cannot allow to go before the end of the debate.
In passing, may I say how enthusiastic we were to hear the report of the Chairman of the Sub-Committee, who, I see, is now leaving the Chamber.
I wish to develop the point that the prices and incomes policy is one which has often been misunderstood in certain quarters. The evidence of the lack of information is borne out by a number of reports. I have referred already to the Fourth Report of the Estimates Committee. I want now to add a quote from a statement by the National Board for Prices and Incomes which was made in the form of a Press release on 18th April. It says:
"Wage negotiations are normally conducted on the basis of information about wage rates and limited information about average hours worked and average earnings available from public statistics. Because of the important differences that often exist between basic rates of pay and total earnings due not only to overtime pay but to other supplementary earnings, this information is often inadequate for a proper basis of negotiation under an incomes policy."
It goes on to make the point that that is particularly the case when the industrial classification of published statistics of earnings differs materially from the structure of wage negotiating machinery.
That is a criticism which is borne out not only by the Report of the Prices and Incomes Board, but by the type of information which we receive from the Ministry of Labour. The way of meeting the difficulty is to try and get some degree of co-ordination of the information, rather than criticising the whole concept of Government policy on this. What we want is some unification of material.
If we take the weekly and hourly rates of the wages indices, there is almost a jungle of information. They went haywire in January, they show a sharp rise over December, and the same sort of rise

795
as last year. In reality, the weekly rates of wages did not move up in that way. According to the Ministry of Labour, the wages indices moved this year and last year in such a way as to be very misleading. The reason for it is that the index, automatically or by decision, has been calculated so that it reflects increases in basic or minimum rates and not actual rates. I would suggest that the Ministry makes it quite clear in future that the indices were based on recognised minimum rates of wages because, unfortunately, that is not what the public has generally assumed.
It is interesting also to bear in mind that we can learn from the experiences of other countries. In Holland, just after the war, it was decided to engage in an incomes policy. As a preliminary basis to that work, it was decided to have a full job evaluation of all work. That is essential information before attempting to manipulate the material as it comes.
I want to make two or three observations on the presentation of materials. In my opinion, Recommendation (5) is right, but I am surprised that the observation which follows is extremely cautious when it does not need to be.
On the wider use of statistics and the problems of scarce professional resources, which are dealt with in Recommendations (8) and (12), I would expect the Minister to indicate whether he feels that the rather cautious language contained in the observation is something to which he can add, because, again, this is something which needs close attention.
My third point on the presentation of material is that sometimes in the reports of the Ministry of Labour and of the other Departments covered by this inquiry the language needs some modification. I am sure that we recognise the extraordinary success of Northcote Parkinson and his law, and there is no doubt that it touches on some aspects here.
A fourth point which I will make is about typographical improvements which are necessary in some Government documents. As an ex-printer, I can only feel that the document described as "a list of principal statistical series available" is one which is in urgent need of improvement. It is a most difficult docu-
796
ment to follow, and there is no doubt that it is something which could be improved.
One of the points stressed in both the Report and in the minutes of evidence is the need to make sure that industry is aware of the material and the statistical information available. Any medium-sized or small company would find this booklet a serious challenge, and it should not be. With the exception of the larger organisation, there are few people who will be attracted to searching for information that is needed.
That brings me to the point of industry's responsibility. Clearly, the majority of firms have now co-ordinated an approach to the receipt and analysis of outside statistics, whether they be from Government sources or trade federations. In that connection, the evidence submitted to the Sub-Committee by Courtaulds is unique. Here is a company with a large specialist staff and where personnel are encouraged to understand and use statistical methods. Nevertheless, what we have to get across to companies in the medium and small-sized range is some form of digest which brings together many of the pieces of information which are scattered throughout many documents and require a great deal of effort to discover.
The Government ought to encourage industry to undertake more positive research itself. That is something on which, in terms of statistics which are relevant to the Ministry of Labour, we spend a great deal of time studying "negative" factors. The Ministry encourages industry by its own analyses of absenteeism and labour turnover. We ought to be asssessing the reason why people are coming to work and why they decide to maintain a high average of attendance. It is because of this negative, almost punitive, factor in our research in the personnel management field that so much effort is devoted to the negative side. The Government ought to be prepared to encourage industry to involve itself in other types of research than negative ones.
At best, industry regards statistics as an operational "thing". This is not an academic exercise. I do not think that it JS interested in the political arguments which have been advanced. It wants to see how far the information which it is asked for can be given quickly,

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and speed is of the essence. Industry will always react to duplication and overlapping, and that is a very serious criticism which can be made against Government Departments. This, again, is something contained in the Report, and to a very small extent in the Departmental Observations.
Let us look at some examples of duplication and overlapping. The D.E.A. conducted an inquiry into occupational trends from 1964 to 1970, calling for particulars of expected changes in administrative, technical and scientific staff. This overlaps with the work of the Committee on Scientific Manpower and the Ministry of Labour inquiry on employment in the metal using industries.
To take another example of overlapping, in 1965 the Chemical Industries Association was obtaining for the D.E.A. data for the industry's forecast for the National Plan. Then it was asked by the Manpower Research Unit of the Ministry of Labour to provide long-term data of exactly the same sort for an inquiry which the Unit was conducting on future requirements for skilled and scientifically trained manpower.
If we can look at the problems of overlapping in terms of industries and Departments, the forms will look after themselves. While it is right for hon. Members to raise the difficulties and refinements of particular types of forms which have been distributed, it is the reason why the forms go out in which I am interested. That is something which aggravates industry and which can be easily dealt with, but it has been allowed to continue. What we are talking about is how to use the information we have, and how this can be put into operation quickly.
We do not need to go very far into the problems of servicing organisations. My short check on the House of Commons Library suggests that the statistical section is very small, and this is probably why hon. Gentlemen are less inclined to be here at what I consider to be an important debate. The Library consists of three clerks, one typist, a part-time officer and a clerical officer. This is the centre of power, as it were, in the Library to deal with statistical work.
This is nonsense. It does not mean that they are not attempting to provide Members with what is sometimes a
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unique service, but it is not enough when we consider that there are 630 Members here, and I am suggesting that this is something at which we ought to look, as well as encouraging industry to be more effective.
The whole problem of servicing affects Government and industry, and I would therefore, like to make some proposals to deal with this. First, I think that we must have a more critical function by a central Government Department or agency of all the material distributed. The C.S.O. could be given responsibility for commenting on the relationship between statistical series put out by different Government Departments. Such critical analysis must be taking place already, and I therefore ask my hon. Friend to tell us whether this can be published.
Secondly, a great deal of information is being collected by independent bodies. I am sure that many hon. Members are grateful for the work done by Incomes Data, and no doubt my hon. Friend will comment on this. This organisation produces a very useful record of economic and financial information, but always directed to the operational needs of industry, and as far as I am concerned it is the only place where one can get a complete statement of productivity bargains.
This, again is an omission on the part of the Ministry of Labour and the D.E.A. While it is true that references to agreements are reported in the Press, and in Press releases, there is no one central source for this information. The only place where I have discovered this is in the organisation to which I have referred.
Thirdly, greater care should be given to the qualitative aspect of Government inquiries. In many respects we have only the material. We have to sort out how useful it is, and whether it can be directed to the proper channels.
Fourthly, it would be useful to study the methods of other countries in the many inquiries that were made. There is a great deal of documented evidence, but we do not have any other country's experience. We have the views of individual professors, and references to the work of Departments, but I do not think that we have any useful contributions about how a country operates its statistical services. This would be helpful.

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and it is something into which the Committee could look.
It would be a pity if this debate concluded without a reference to all those who are engaged in Government statistical work. Those who add and tot up through the night do so with little public sympathy, and it would be a pity if it also became a question of failure to understand the work that they were doing because of the political arguments mentioned by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
6.24 p.m.
Mr. Peter Hordern: I join the hon. Member for Billericay (Mr. Moonman) in expressing our admiration for, and appreciation of, the work done by the statistical offices. We are asked in this debate to note both the Fourth Report of the Estimates Committee and the Ninth Special Report relating thereto. It has been said already that we are prepared to welcome the Fourth Report from the Estimates Committee, and all I am prepared to do is to note the Ninth Special Report.
I shall be very surprised if the Report does not receive considerably more attention than it has done up to now. It is a regular mine of information. It has done what Radcliffe did for the private sector—unearthed the methods of calculation, and indeed the very machinery of government, which will prove invaluable to economists, and, I dare say, to political commentators. Certainly, this debate provides an opportunity, of which we have made plentiful use, of making political comments on some of the economic methods employed.
I do not wish to spend much time on the political arguments which have been raised so far, but I must say that among the interesting features of the Report is the number of condemnations on Government policy and of other attitudes and methods of Government Departments. For example, few people could have anticipated such condemnation of the National Plan as appears in the Memorandum by the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs describing how the Plan was drawn up in the first place. To say, as the right hon. Gentleman does, that selecting a terminal year and making a single assumption about the level of output to be achieved in that year
"meant some loss of conviction in the Plan"
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is nothing to the credibility gap that will emerge to anyone reading this Review if another Plan is produced, which I feel sure it will. This was rather confirmed by Sir Eric Roll, who said that in his judgment the Plan was drawn up too hastily.
The hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) attempted to have some fun by saying that there was no difference in the Committee in its attitude to planning. The hon. Gentleman is not making the distinction quite clear between forecasting and planning, and this may be the opportunity to state my views on this question.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite are united on the need for planning, whether compulsory, or, as they call it, voluntary planning. We on this side do not accept planning of any kind. We accept forecasting, and there is a real distinction between these two matters. We rely on some of the evidence that was produced in the Report, and not just on a philosophical objection, but on practical objections, to the absurdity of drawing up a whole complicated National Plan stretching years ahead when one starts on the basis of very weak statistics.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) and the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Gwilym Roberts) about the weight which should be given to statistics and that this weighting should be given publicly.
Paragraph 29 on page 36 of the Report deals with the difficulty of drawing up effective statistics on the balance of payments. It says:
"But for balance of payments purposes imports have to be expressed in expected future values and this requires the taking of a view of the course of world commodity and other prices, an area where it is notoriously difficult to find any reliable predictive tools."
Hon. Gentlemen opposite know this as well as I do. One our our prime difficulties is that of forecasting any effective or reliable figure for the balance of payments, and our practical objections to building a plan on such a weak array of statistics as are available, and the difficulty of trying to consolidate them into a practical plan are confirmed by the experience of other countries.
During the last 18 months I have visited the Dutch Central Planning Bureau, the

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French Commissariat du Plan, Germany, and more recently the Council of Economic Advisers, in Washington. Experience in all these countries shows that where one tries to draw a hard and fast plan, stretching years ahead, it is almost certain that disaster will follow. This has been the French experience. They have had five devaluations since the war, and the production index a few years ago was the same as in 1919. The best advice to the French has to be to buy gold and to put it under their beds, and this is what they have done. The Dutch have been referred to as a nation who believe in planning, but the Dutch play says that figures constitute a forecast and not a plan.
Mr. David Marquand: I understand the hon. Gentleman's distinction between forecasting and planning, but am a little surprised at his vehement objection to planning when it was the Conservative Government who set up the N.E.D.C., which began this country's exercise in indicative planning. Is he saying that this, too, was a mistake?
Mr. Hordern: Not at all. I do not describe that as planning, but as forecasting. I will say later what I mean by forecasting and I think statistics can provide proper assistance for the formulation at least of Government policy if of no one else's.
I was referring to some of the highlights of the Report, some of which are perhaps not so important, but which nevertheless provide some amusing interludes in a very serious work. Professor Stone has been mentioned. As one who does not agree with his views on economic planning, I was amused to see that, after he said,
"We need a little more of the spirit of 'What's good for the nation is good for General Motors' and a little less of 'What's good for General Motors is good for the nation'"
he admitted, in answer to one of the first questions put to him by the Committee, that most of his researches were paid for by the Ford Foundation.
Those of us who do not agree with Professor Stone's views obviously find some comfort in what Sir Eric Roll had to say about his being too theoretically perfectionist in some matters. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology obviously learned something after Professor Cairncross and Sir Alexander
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Johnston had finished with his views on economic models.
I warmly congratulate the Committee on its achievement in eliciting so much of the mechanics of economic decision-making, even if this was not its primary purpose. For the first time, it is possible to make a qualitative judgment about our statistical services. If we have had many criticisms and comments to make, this is only because we can, for the first time, make a valid comparison on what we have learned from the Report. We have come a long way from what the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South referred to, Mr. Harold Macmillan's remark about Bradshaw.
The Treasury referred to a transformation in the range and reliability of statistics. This is evident from any comparison with the previous position in this country but this is not the only comparison which should or could be made. It was impossible not to conclude from my visits to Holland, France, Germany and the United States that the statistics themselves there are far more meaningful as a basis for economic discussion, and, therefore, in their value for business and industry, than the statistics which business and industry have provided in this country. I do not mean that our statistics are not very informative and valuable, but, in the way they are presented, they compare unfavourably with the practices in other countries.
The reasons for this are partly technical and partly political, and I wish to comment on the Committee's recommendations under these two main headings. I deal, first, with what I regard as its most important recommendation, for a common register.
The Department's observation on this recommendation and the C.S.O's evidence in Appendix 4 were discouraging. The Department said that agreement had been reached in principle on the value of a common register, but that
"… final decision must depend on numerous practical points which have to be settled."
The Appendix says:
"It is not always realised that for practical reasons different reporting units have to be used for different statistical series and that the decision on the type of unit to be used in any particular case has to be flexible in order to minimise the demands on the responder."

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But what could minimise those demands more than one common register by which all the classification could be kept with a different form of coding? This is surely obvious. All the evidence suggests that a common register is essential, as also is the need, as far as possible, to evolve a common form of inquiries for different industries.
To say, as the Department does, that some questions are deliberately repeated in Government Departments for purposes of control or comparison merely shows an alarming ignorance of the technical capacity of an advanced computer system. I therefore welcome the Committee's recommendation that a standing group with specialised knowledge of computers drawn from within and without the Civil Service should be appointed under the auspices of the C.S.O.
But I did not like the Department's reaction, that the chairmanship of such a Committee should fall to the Treasury Management Group. This is like asking Scrooge to promote luxury cruises to the Bahamas. On its own evidence, the Treasury should not have this responsibility. I believe that a separate Department of State should be set up to introduce new technical thinking and techniques into the Civil Service. The Treasury recently published a number of occasional papers, one of which I have here, called The Design of Information Processing Systems in Government, but even this was published without the Treasury's responsibility and its description of computer techniques is pretty elementary.
According to the Statistical Office, 13 Departments were using their own computers for statistical purposes at the end of 1965, another three were installing them and six Departments sent out work for processing elsewhere. In the United States, there are about 3,000 computers in Government service, which is rather more than all the computers installed in this country.
I am sure that the Treasury's Organisation and Methods Department makes frequent visits to the United States and the Continent to study computer developments in Government. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can give us details of the number of visits. However, I cannot
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believe that they are made at a high level, since so little has been done in Government Departments in this respect. I appreciate, of course, that the number of computers which I gave in the Government service covers only the statistical services and that there are other computers for other purposes, but even so they lag so far behind the practice in other countries that I cannot believe that the figure is acceptable——
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Although there may be a shortage of computers in Government service in this country as compared with the United States, would the hon. Gentleman not agree that there is a similar or even greater shortage in private industry here as compared with the United States? Would he therefore conclude that the Committee which he considers setting up to look after scientific management or organisation should also include in its sphere the education of private industry in these modern techniques?
Mr. Hordern: I do not. I spoke on this last night in the debate on establishing a Post Office computer grid. I am all for establishing more computers in Government service, but if private industry does not install enough it has a painful way of learning that it should. I am against intervention and certainly do not favour Government intervention in the supply of computer power to industry.
I ask this question of the Under-Secretary because, when I was in Washington a few weeks ago, one of the Congressmen on the Joint Economic Council complained to me that they had only two computers to check the Administration's own calculations. I have talked about the enormous number of computers in the Government service there. To draw a comparison, if hon. Members in this place complained that we had only two computers to check what the Government purported to be their forecasts for the current year, we should be in a good position. I thought that that comparison was useful.
Difficulty may arise because the quality of our middle and junior grade civil servants is so high, compared with other countries, that the incentive to install computers on the part of the Administration is not so great. There is also the possible fact that the extra flood of work

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imposed on these civil servants has not been as high in Britain as elsewhere.
The readiness to adopt new methods and techniques cannot come merely by looking at them or by attending courses to study them. This is what the Report recommends. It can come only by a constant interchange of top management—between civil servants, representatives of industry and the universities—a practice which is widely followed in the United States.
The status and career prospects of statisticians should be improved, although one of the recommendations of the Committee, about pensions, should be specially considered and may be dangerous in this context in the sense that if pension arrangements are made especially attractive people may have less desire to move either into university or industrial life. It is this interchange of top personnel between these three strands of national life which is an important factor in the United States and which could be profitably followed here.
I notice that in discussing the nature of the task of statisticians, some hon. Members feel that their job should not be only to study and evaluate statistics. This is a good point, since industry is more and more demanding a common form of service. It might be that somebody has expertise in economics, statistics or accounting, but more and more, as computers are used in large companies, there is a requirement for people with strands of expertise to have knowledge of all these professions. Statisticians should be able to get experience not just in computer techniques, from the point of view of the administrative part of the statistical services, but, also, that they should be encouraged to gain proper economic experience in business and industrial life.
I turn to some of the political points arising from the Report. First, I make a special plea to make what statistics we have as realistic and credible as they can be. I refer particularly to the gold and dollar reserve figures, which come out each month and which everyone in the world knows are totally unreliable, sometimes blatantly misleading. Either they should be accurate or not published at all.
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Secondly, the production index. It takes, on average, 50 days before the figures are announced here, whereas in the United States it takes only 15 days. The Department's explanation for this is that it takes almost all this time to gather the returns from industrial firms. Why should these firms be so reluctant to pass on this information? The principal reason must be because they are not sufficiently interested in the statistics which the Government provide. This is borne out by the fact that, as the Report says, out of 347 companies asked, 30 said that they never noticed Government statistics, 104 that they never used them and 166 that they sometimes found them useful.
The problem cannot be solved by investing more in advertising. If anybody now wants statistics, he must know where to begin to look for them. If he does not know where to start looking, it can be a discouraging process. A great deal of time and effort is spent by many people in extracting consistent economic figures. There should be a library to which they can go and ask for the fullest figures on any subject, rather than turning to the Journal, which may contain the figures, but about which one must know something in the first place.
What does the Department do with the statistics it has? Does the Board of Trade use them as, for example, a basis for examining new policies and for improving efficiency in industry? What sort of analysis is made of the statistics? The fault in all the discussions and reports is that, in the first place, statistics are not sufficiently reliable, are difficult to readily obtain, that not sufficient analysis is made of them, and that no informed descriptive work is done on the meaning of the analysis that is done. Does the Board of Trade make an assessment of the statistics to enable a number of predictions, or even one, to be made about the probable course of events if present policies are pursued? This is what I mean by a forecast on the lines of the forecasting done by the Dutch.
The nub of the political case about this Report concerns the forecasts the Departments make to their Ministers and whether these forecasts should be made public. There seem to be three main reasons why the Government are reluctant to publish Departmental forecasts. The

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first is because the forecasts themselves may be shown to be technically deficient in the way in which the statistics have been gathered or interpreted. The second is because the predictions may be politically embarrassing—for example, forecasts in respect of wages or unemployment. The third is because the forecasts may prove to be wrong and, therefore, bring the Government's capacity to manage the economy into disrepute.
The Committee stated, in paragraph 80, that if forecasting procedures were to be improved it would be shortsighted to restrict the flow of information. My hon. Friends and I are convinced that the supply of meaningful forecasts from the Treasury is woefully inadequate. We need a full survey into the current position rather on the lines of the Annual Report of the Council of Economic Advisers in the United States. This is a bulky document, a copy of which I have with me, but it is a readily readable interpretation of current statistics and the way in which the administration of the economy will develop. It is widely read throughout business and industry in the United States.
All that we get from the Chancellor is the admission that he feels like a mixture of Old Moore and Captain Coe. He will be treated like a mixture of those two unless and until he produces an intelligible commentary supported by the fullest statistics and calculations. In that respect, one cannot help but mention the failure of the National Plan, which did not produce nearly enough statistics or a meaningful analysis or commentary of how the figures which were projected had been arrived at in the first place.
One of the principal reasons for the decline in manufacturing investment is that industry does not have a realistic idea of the Government's short-term thinking about the economy. In fact, international organisations like O.E.C.D. have a much better idea of our balance of payments official forecasts—whether or not they learn about them unofficially—than anybody here. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must realise that his statements and forecasts, although wrong, would be treated with much more respect if we could see how they had been arrived at.
I therefore welcome this Report. I am sure that it will gain wider coverage
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as time goes by and, in so far as it succeeds in pushing the Government into disclosing more information, into establishing a more important rôle for the Central Statistical Office and improving the techniques of economic forecasting, it will perform a valuable service.
6.49 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. Peter Shore): I join the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) and other hon. Members who have taken part in the debate in paying tribute to the Select Committee on Estimates, in particular, that Committee's Sub-Committee, for producing an outstanding Report. I am sure that hon. Members will join with me in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) for initiating this debate and for his part in Chairing the latter stages of the Committee's work. We are equally grateful to his predecessor in that position, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray), who is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology. They can look with great satisfaction on their achievement in publishing this Report. It is not too much to describe it as a landmark. As we heard at the beginning of the debate, one most unusual feature of the Report has been the use—for the first time, I think—of specialist assistance from outside. I have no doubt at all that the Report has been greatly improved by the help of Professor Pyatt, and I add my tribute to him.
Another unusual feature of the Report is the high ratio of written to oral evidence. That high ratio in turn reflects both the very searching questions that were put to Government Departments and the very full responses which the Departments gave. Another point about the Report is that this is the first time the Estimates Committee has looked at the statistical services, but, more than that, it is the first really major occasion since 1947, when we had the Statistics of Trade Act, that the whole of the Government's statistical services have been examined.
I have the duty of commenting on the very large number of separate points that have been made this afternoon. I know that I shall not succeed on commenting on them all. I hope to deal with a number of them now, but others I may

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have to take up later in discussion or correspondence with hon. Members.
I begin by commenting on what was said by my hon. Friends the Members for Woolwich, West and Bristol, North-East (Mr. Dobson) about the departmental response to the recommendations. I am afraid that I cannot accept the suggested classification of the replies into acceptances, rejections and others. This, perhaps, reveals that one of the problems of statistics is that one has to agree a classification before one can start tabulating and putting particular things in particular brackets.
Another point is that the Government's attitude to the recommendations is in many ways very correct. We are expecting additional information to be fed into the Government—and I shall have something further to say on that later—in particular, in relation to the Jackson Report about which hon. Members will know. In addition, we shall be taking account of the many points that have been put of us in this debate.
I would seek to reassure my hon. Friends by saying that no doors have been closed. If my hon. Friends have found a certain wariness in the written responses it is because the great pressure on human resources in the statistical service, of which we are very conscious at present. This makes us very cautious, until we have completed our own studies, about accepting, at the same time, as it were, all the many recommendations and suggestions for change that are put to us. We have here a real problem of priorities.
We have had from the Opposition a somewhat ambiguous attitude towards Government statistics. Some hon. Members opposite went out of their way to point to inadequacies. I have very much in mind in this respect the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen)—I am sorry that he has had to leave us, while appreciating, of course, the reason—who spoke on the inadequacy of our material on earnings. A point that will not have escaped any hon. Member is that the hon. Member for Oswestry would have been appalled if we had had the material he was so anxious to point out we lacked. No one would have been more disturbed than he had we had all that information available——
Mr. Hordern: I do not think that my hon. Friend would have been at all appalled if the Government had had those statistics. What he objects to is that the Government should act on the statistics against private industry, as they have under the prices and incomes legislation. That is what my hon. Friend objected to.
Mr. Shore: I do not think so. I listened with great care to the hon. Gentleman on this subject, and I have no doubt at all that his basic complaint is that anyone should dare to interfere with the free market in wages, prices, dividends, profits—anything. That is one attitude. But I put it to the House that if this is the emotional attitude underlying the Opposition's approach to Government statistics—or the attitude of a significant number of hon. Members opposite—they can hardly complain when we now find ourselves in a situation in which our services are overloaded and we are short of very many services which we need in order to carry out effective modern planning. This is the whole point. Our statistical services are today under great pressure because it was not until about 1962 that hon. Members opposite decided that it was worth while to gather information to help them in economic decision making.
The hon. Member for Horsham made a distinction between forecasting and planning. I find that a very fine distinction and, frankly, he did not explain it to my satisfaction. But the point he must take is that whether we are forecasting or planning we still need the same input of information, and it is the failure in years gone by to secure this kind of information in a systematic way that allows the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends to make much of the criticism that we have heard from them today——
Mr. Hamling: Can my hon. Friend distinguish between the anarchism of the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and that of the Opposition Front Bench?
Mr. Shore: I should like to have been able to distinguish between the two, but I heard the hon. Member for Horsham make a very categorical statement to the effect that he was against planning in any form whatever.
Mr. Hordern: I am against compulsory planning and I am against what the

811
Government refer to as voluntary planning. May I make that quite clear?
Mr. Shore: The hon. Member has not helped.
Mr. Hamling: Conservative planning.
Mr. Shore: Whatever the hon. Member's conception of planning and forecasting may be, the point is that we need a great deal more information and more systematic work than we have now. Virtually all of us, with the exception of the hon. Member for Oswestry, will be interested in getting statistical information. There are three things we want. First, if we collect information we should be able to identify problems and, better still, if possible we can anticipate problems. This debate has focused largely on economic problems and on related statistics, but the collection of statistics goes very much wider than industrial or financial statistics. I am thinking particularly at the moment of the very important contribution made by the collection of demographic information which goes right back, I am told, to the year 1801.
This kind of information is of great importance for revealing problems. If a Government are sensitive to the information and interpret the information they receive they will, with that information alone, put in train a whole series of policies. I think, for example, of the importance that we now attach, and rightly attach, to the increase in population of this country and all the implications that has for pressure on the social services generally, education in particular, and of course on housing needs and so on.
The important thing here is to identify problems and to anticipate them. That is the first need. The second very important contribution which good statistics can make is to enable us to monitor our own policies. I think it was Professor Titmus who once pointed out the great importance of the unintended consequences of Government decisions. He was talking of Governments generally when he made that remark. It is true that Governments aim their policies, whether they are economic or fiscal, to achieve certain things, but unless there is a follow-through, unless there is actual survey work done, unless there is the
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collection of material and systematic work, we do not know whether we have achieved what we set out to achieve with a particular measure or have missed the target altogether.
The third reason why we want statistical information, why it has become so important, is that in spite of what hon. Members opposite have been saying all parties know that they have to plan nationally and have to plan ahead in a systematic way. I think back now to the N.E.D.C. report and the 4 per cent. growth rate put forward then, and the famous White Paper at the end of 1963, which was an attempt to forecast ahead the totality and particular categories of Government expenditure over a four-year period. It was this which led to the famour phrase about careful costing which we heard so much about during 1964. They were able to forecast Government expenditure over a four-year period on the basis of the N.E.D.C. growth rate at that time, and came up with some most remarkable figures about what could be afforded by the nation under the various categories of Government expenditure.
I do not complain of that now, it is all behind us, but I am absolutely certain that hon. Members opposite should they ever—I hope not—be again on the Treasury Bench would find themselves in great need of just this kind of information for national planning about which they are being so critical and indeed so ambiguous in their general attitudes.
Mr. Marquand: Niggling.
Mr. Shore: Yes. I should like to go on from here to comment on some of the improvements which are needed in our statistics. A number of very critical points have been made but I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the very high professional quality of the astonishingly small number of people who do the statistical work for this country. Not the least of the surprises to me in reading through the evidence of the Select Committee was the discovery that only about 160 professional statisticians are responsible for processing this fantastic flow of information which Governments now collect. Although there are criticisms they do not take away from our recognition of the very high quality of professional skill we have serving us.

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There has, of course, been an enormous increase in the demand for different kinds of statistics. There is here a very great pressure indeed. I shall comment later on one or two priorities and groups of statistics which are of great concern to us, but running through all of the criticisms which are made I think there are three themes. One, of course, is the desire for greater accuracy, which everyone wants. Secondly there is the desire that figures should be published and information should be made available far more quickly. Thirdly there is the demand for greater detail and greater coverage of statistical material.
At present there is something of a conflict between these objectives. We can get greater speed in certain statistical series, but I have no doubt that we would pay a greater price in accuracy if we accelerated them. The same point applies if we are to get greater detail and wider coverage of the field. Unless we can get a greater build-up of resources we shall lose out on speed.
Another point, which may be relevant in the light of some of the criticisms which have been made, is that there is of course a great opportunity through the use of computers, ultimately to speed up processing information. I am thinking now of the use of computers in a very modest way. It will not have escaped the notice of hon. Members who read the Report that the first experience of using computers was not a happy one. This is very frankly stated as being among the main difficulties and reasons for the delays in publishing the full results of the 1961 census of population and also of the 1963 census of production. One hopes—indeed, I am sure—that the experience gained in using computers to process the material from these two censuses will not be wasted and that the further censuses which are in hand will benefit enormously by the work which has already been done although the price had to be paid for the changeover to new methods.
I turn to what seemed to be the five or so main questions that were raised in my mind, and I think in the minds of other hon. Members, by the Report and I shall try to answer them, at least to some extent.
Mr. Hordern: When talking about computers I particularly asked the hon. Gentleman to deal with the number of
814
visits which the O. & M. Department of the Treasury makes to countries which use computer services.
Mr. Shore: I cannot tell the hon. Member about the number of visits made to other countries, but I shall try to obtain the information for him.
I turn to the main problems and questions which arise from the Report. The first concerns staffing and the shortages of professional statisticians with which we are faced. Information on this is available already to the House in the Select Committee Report, but the most important figures which I should quote are these. There were 169 posts at the end of 1964 and there are now 251 posts. That was the April, 967 figure. Those are established posts, but they are not all filled. In April, 1967 there were 52 unfilled posts. The problem of adequate trained manpower lies at the heart of most of the reforms, changes and improvements we ant to make in the statistical service.
In an effort to overcome this deficiency, there is a considerable range of schemes to encourage recruitment. There is a cadet statistician scheme, the idea being to give a year's postgraduate training at a university to suitably qualified people. There is a bursary scheme under which people with the right kind of ability are sent to university for a completely professional course. There are determined efforts to raid the universities for students or graduates who have had statistical training. A considerable advertising campaign is shortly to be launched to attract statisticians into the Government service.
No one would contend that this is enough. We must obviously try to attract more people and train them for the Government service. Our efforts will be assisted if we can succeed in making Government statistics more attractive as a career. This brings me to the important point of the opportunities available for professional statisticians in the higher grades of the Civil Service. At the end of 1964 there were only 32 posts of Assistant Secretary level and only four above that level for professional statisticians. These are astonishing figures. There are now 44 Assistant Secretary posts and 15 above Assistant Secretary level. I do not believe that

815
this process has by any means finished. The Treasury is carefully examining the question of particular posts with responsibilities attached to them.
Our recruitment would be greatly helped if more of the actual nature of the work done by Government statisticians was generally known. Government statisticians are not just playing with figures and collating them. The job is much more exciting. It reaches out into econometric studies, input and output studies, various applications of forecasting techniques, cost benefit studies, computer costing, problems of sample survey design, etc. The work is in the econometric field and opens up a wide range of interests.
The second important question raised by the Select Committee was what we could do to improve the collection of key statistics. Hon. Members have been right to emphasise the importance of achieving a common register. At present the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour are both responsible for collecting an enormous amount of information from industry in their respective fields. Unfortunately, although there is a considerable overlap in the classifications they use, there is not an agreed classification. It is very difficult to relate the information collected by the Board of Trade with that collected by the Ministry of Labour.
This situation must end. The reply may be a little cautious, but this is only because of the immense amount of work involved in reconciling the two classifications. There are no fewer than 100,000 entries to harmonise so as to achieve a common register. When these two Departments have achieved a common register, other Departments which collect information will be able to join them, thus achieving the wider register envisaged by the authors of the Report. This is a key objective in the improvement of Government statistics.
The Family Expenditure Survey is also extremely important. It was, incidentally, through the use of this survey that the Allen Committee was able to identify so clearly the problem of the burden of rates on low-income families. The information provided by this survey enabled us to introduce the rate rebate
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Measure, which was designed to assist precisely the groups whom the survey had revealed as being most in need.
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: The work in this field is particularly important. Would the Government consider producing a more complex retail price index than the present very general one, with the association of specific retail price indices to certain expenditure groups? Expenditure patterns vary considerably according to the income classification.
Mr. Shore: One of the recommendations in the Report relates to whether we could get a cost of living index related, not only to different regions, but also to the expenditure of particular social groups. We have asked the Cost of Living Advisory Committee to consider and report upon this question.
The Family Expenditure Survey has many other uses than that which I have quoted. We are greatly enlarging the numbers brought into the scope of the survey. The previous figure was 5,000. This year we hope to survey 10,000 homes to get a much broader basis for information.
I was asked particularly about earnings figures. We are aware of the inadequacies, but much is being done. For manufacturing industry, twice-yearly earnings figures have been published for many years. We are now trying to get earnings figures for retail distribution to complement those we have for manufacturing industry. We are also trying to bring together earnings figures for wages and salaries—this will be on a twice-yearly basis, I hope—rather than having a separate annual salary survey. We are also concerned, not merely to have regional earnings figures, but to have sub-regional earnings figures also. This will greatly improve our statistics in this field.
Considerable advances are being planned on many other fronts, but I shall not go further into illustrations now. Instead, I turn to the third question arising out of the Select Committee's Report. Several hon. Members rightly emphasised the importance of relationships with industry. We have the Statistics of Trade Act, 1947, and there is legislative authority to require people to provide statistical information, but the truth is that the system depends to a great extent

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upon voluntary co-operation. It is right that it should. There are great difficulties for the Government and, I suspect, for industry, too, in getting the flow of information quickly enough to be of use to both sides. But I would take a slightly more optimistic view than some do because I think that industry itself has come to realise that it is not just a producer of statistics but it can be, and will increasingly be, a consumer. Furthermore, the attitude of industry, unlike that of hon. Members opposite, towards planning and forecasting has changed significantly in recent years. Industrialists are rather anxious to co-operate in getting a much better picture, since they will benefit certainly as much as the Government if our statistical services and sources are greatly improved.
Particular problems here can be ironed out with the help of the E.D.C.s, several of which have statistical working parties. This is of great assistance. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir J. Rodgers) raised the question of people being able to use Government statistics on a payment basis. There is a great deal to be said for this, but, here again, the question of priorities and timing comes in. I tell the House frankly that the service at present could not be asked to undertake more than it does, or, at least, it would have to be extremely careful in giving industry more help in the immediate future, because of the great difficulties of overloading and the shortage of professional manpower to which I have already referred.
The fourth main point arising out of the Report, on which hon. Members have commented, is the possible use of computers. I have already assured the hon. Member for Horsham that I shall look into what the Government statisticians are doing about keeping in touch with what goes on in other countries in the use of computers in helping to provide Government statistics. The main recommendation here was that a standing group should be set up to look at the uses which the Government make of computers and to advise on possible improvements. We accept this recommendation, and I hope that we shall shortly be able to appoint the standing group recommended.
The last point I take up is one which many people regard as the key to several of the questions on which I have already
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touched, namely, the organisation of Government statistics and, in particular, the rôle of the Central Statistical Office, together with the rôle of the other Departments which are collectors and processors of statistics. I feel that one should have some sense of history in approaching this question. I pointed out earlier that the first census of population was taken in 1801, so that that part of our statistical service has a very long history. I am told that the first census of production took place in 1908. The Central Statistical Office was set up in 1941, during the war.
The point I am making here is that statistics have grown up Departmentally in response to particular needs over a long period of years. The case for coordination and central management has, as it were, come late. Indeed, it seems to be a corollary of the general aim of effective national planning. The House will have noted that this is one of the central themes, that the C.S.O. should come to play a much stronger co-ordinating and central management rôle within the statistical service. I should say that it has always played a central rôle, but it was the view of the Estimates Committee that this should be pushed much further.
Several functions are involved, of which, it is necessary for me to refer now, perhaps, to only the most important. On the one hand, there is the standardisation of forms and so on, there being several recommendations touching upon Recommendation No. 3. There is the coordinating and general channelling of industrial inquiries, which lies behind several of the later recommendations. This rôle of the C.S.O. is important; it will be developed in the near future and will become more vital as we move over to a more computerised system of industrial statistics, and still more so as we move over to central data banks. Next, there is the function of setting technical standards for statistical work generally and of advising on methods.
All that is part of the work of the C.S.O., but, above all, there is the rôle of determining priorities within the statistical system and initiating as well as co-ordinating statistical inquiries, taking major responsibility for starts and balance of work in the service as a whole to fit in with priorities. I hope that the Committee will read my words now against the background of what I said

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earlier about the great shortage of professional statisticians in relation to the ever-increasing load of work being put upon them.
The Report of the Select Committee, the official comment upon it, and today's debate, are by no means the end of the story, but, rather, they mark the beginning of a further sustained drive to improve our statistical services for both Government and industry, to get information of a kind and in a form, and with a speed and accuracy, never before possible. The statistical service itself has been enormously encouraged by the great and renewed interest in its work and is acting with vigour to meet the demands put upon it.
As the House knows, we are fortunate at this critical stage in the development of the service to have as our new Director of Statistics a man who contributed to the work of the Select Committee and who is, of course, of outstanding ability and of great experience in the world of statistics. I can now tell the House that we have received the substance and the main conclusions of the Jackson Report, which was commissioned just over a year ago. I assure the House that it will be studied with keen interest by all those concerned.
I should like to leave the House with the understanding that we feel that a vigorous start has been made, but that we are still looking to a gathering momentum of change and improvement in this very important sphere.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. John Pardoe: I welcome the Report, partly because, being a passionate advocate of Select Committees, I welcome any Report that shows that they do their job and do it very well. This Report has shown that Select Committees work, and work well.
I am also glad to be able to intervene in the debate because it has been of great interest to many hon. Members for the insight it has given us into what can only be called the "new Conservatism". We have heard very interesting things about it today from two hon. Members on this side of the House. We heard that the Conservative Party is against planning, and we even heard from the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) that he is against the gathering
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of statistics. We also heard some scathing remarks about Government intervention of any sort.
The matter is not as easy as that. It is only necessary to close a railway line in the constituency of a Conservative Member to realise just how far Conservative Members will go in wanting the Government to keep out. In fact, they will be begging the Government to intervene. Let the Irish export a little meat to this country and then listen to those M.P.s howl for Government intervention. The fact is that we are all planners now—Conservative, Liberal and Labour alike. We must be planners, because as long as we put on the Government the burden of responsibility for full employment, a stable exchange rate, the balance of payments, and so on, surely we must accept that they must intervene in order to take those responsibilities on their shoulders?
Some of the remarks about the National Plan from this side of the House seem to indicate that it was a total disaster. But what was wrong with it was not the statistics on which it was based; what was wrong, and the disaster about it, was the lack of willpower in putting it into operation.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member is getting a little wide of the subject of the debate.
Mr. Pardoe: I am sorry. Mr. Speaker. The subjects were dealt with in speeches, particularly from the Front Bench on this side, and I therefore wished to make those remarks.
Of course, one wants to warn against the misuse of statistics. Obviously, not all policy can be made by just gathering more and more statistics and hoping that the right answer will come out of the bag. That is rather to approach policymaking with the degree of assiduity with which William Manchester approaches the writing of history, feeling that if one gathers together more and more facts in one book one will have something at the end approximating to history. But if one gathers more and more facts on the Common Market, for instance, it does not mean that one will become a convinced Marketeer, or even be able to make up one's mind. That point has been made more than once here.

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I probably had very good training in my early days of business for taking a sceptical look at statistics. I worked for a company whose job it was to measure television audiences. One tried desperately to forecast accurately the future by building up more and more averages. Five-day running averages, five-week running averages and all the rest of the statistical paraphernalia was used, and then some idiot moved "Emergency Ward Ten" half an hour earlier and threw the whole thing out.
That illustrates that one should not base the whole of one's decision-making on a set of statistics. But it is inevitable that policy will be based on statistics to a very large extent, and, therefore, if one is to base policy on statistics one must see that they are right and inspire confidence. They must be up-to-date, and must be properly comparable, particularly between the areas to which they apply. All those points have been made fairly effectively in the Report.
An example of a way in which bad decisions were made as a result of bad statistics was possibly the decision to devalue the £ in 1949. One could argue that if the actual situation of the reserves at that time had been known, instead of the wrong figures being available, a different decision might have been made. I hasten to add that I happen to be one of those who believe that devaluation did something good for the economy at that time, but I think that that shows that one can make wrong decisions possibly because of the wrong statistics. For instance, we are now suffering a shortage of doctors largely because of inadequate statistical information on which to base the supply of medical school places.
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that he is really pointing out, not the absence of statistics, but the absence of adequate factor-finding? If one can determine the relevant significance of various factors—and one must have the statistics in order to do that—the decision should be made in the right way.
Mr. Pardoe: It is true that even if one has the right statistics available one can make the wrong decisions, or can merely ignore the statistics, and it is
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very important to have the right kind of machinery to quantify the statistics available. An obvious example was rearmament in the 1930s, when the statistics were available but most people ignored them.
As a somewhat frustrated back bencher trying to obtain statistical information from the Government I have a particular point, because I think that a bang up-to-date Governmental decision to be founded on totally inadequate statistics—the Channel Tunnel decision. I asked the Minister of Transport on 15th March to give me some idea of what proportion of the gross revenue from the Tunnel would come from the traffic going to and coming from the South, the Midlands and the North-East of England. I received the Written Answer that the regional make-up of cross-Channel traffic was not available. I believe that if it is not available one cannot decide where one wants to build a tunnel, or even whether one wants to build it.
I asked further questions about the Channel Tunnel, including that of how far the cost of moving the Tunnel further down the coast had been balanced against the additional social and economic costs of congestion in the South-East. I was given the same sort of answer: the information was not available. But those two points are absolutely basic to a right decision on whether or where to build a Channel tunnel.
It is primarily in the regional sense that I find a great lack of Government statistics. The Government are committed to regional planning, and I welcome that, apparently unlike some other hon. Members on this side of the House, but we have no adequate tools with which to do the job. The first criticism of any type of statistical information available about the regions is that it is not directly comparable in a geographical sense. We have the planning regions, the hospital regions—even the British Iron and Steel Federation districts—and a whole host of others superimposed and coming up in an ad hoc fashion. Therefore, one cannot take one of the figures available and compare it with another, because the two do not apply to the same area.
I realise that it is very difficult in the hotch-potch of rural district councils, employment exchange areas, county council boundaries and all the other feudal

823
rigmarole with which we are loaded to decide what areas Government statistics should be based on. It is not even really meaningful to say that they should be based on counties. I frequently ask for figures about Cornwall and this is because I have no better area to talk about in relation to statistical analysis. It might be better to scrap the idea of these old boundaries and apply some sort of grid system because one would then know what one was talking about.
There is a strong case in the computer age for going over to a grid system of statistical analysis. One would get down to very small, pinpointed areas. One need not go down to the smallest grid, but certainly to the small, specific areas. It would be easier to analyse them and cross-reference them and compare them if they were all based on this system. I hope and I am sure that this will be considered.
When dealing with the regions, we are not only faced with the problem of an absence of any general geographical reference. There is the sheer absence of regional statistics. The Abstract of Regional Statistics was published in the last two or three years and many of us dealing with regional problems hoped that it would be a mine of information. It is not. All it does on every page is to excite one's curiosity and wish for more. It does not provide more.
In many ways, one finds Government statistics relating to the regions absent. For instance, the President of the Board of Trade was asked on 2nd May:
"… what is the total value of investment for which investment grants have been applied for to date in the North-East of England"?
This is important, because the Government have devised a policy of differential grants in development areas. The President of the Board of Trade's answer was:
"The total value of applications received at the Billingham Investment Grants Office … was £40 million".
This is a considerable sum of public money. He went on:
"in addition to the Northern Development Area, this office covers Yorkshire and part of Lincolnshire. More detailed geographical analysis of this figure is not available."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 57.]
It would be impossible to say what part of this £ 40 million of public money related to a development area at a higher
824
rate and what part to another area at a lower. But surely this fundmental piece of information should be available to a Government Department handling out money on this scale.
On 22nd March, I asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to state the net revenue from the petrol tax in Cornwall, together with the Purchase Tax on cars and other vehicles. Of course, this related to Cornwall and there may be no specific reason why the Government should have the figure available. It was not available and the hon. and learned Gentleman offered no real alternative. He did not give a figure for Devon and Cornwall or a grid system or any other alternative. Surely, in planning road investment, it would be a good idea to relate it to expenditure on cars in an area. Obviously, all of us want more accurate regional statistics, because otherwise we cannot effectively plan in the regions. Hon. Members, particularly those representing development areas, cannot do their job effectively unless the figures are available.
All Government statistics must be capable of serious and sophisticated questioning on the Floor of the House or at any rate in Committee. That means more Select Committees with far better research facilities. It is wrong for the Government to be the sole source of this kind of statistical information so that, if one queries a Minister on a point, he can shoot back statistics which come from a Government Department and there is no real chance to challenge them because we have not the facilities with which to question their validity or margin of error. It is very important that Government statistics should be capable of serious and sophisticated questioning in the House.
I urge the Government to take this Report to heart. I appreciate that the statistical service may well be overloaded, but I hope that what the Joint Under-Secretary of State has said means that there is an inclination or determination by the Government to expand the service to the point where they can give us the tools of our trade.
7.46 p.m.
Mr. David Marquand: I am in warm agreement with the first point made by the hon. Member for Cornwall,

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North (Mr. Pardoe) in pointing to the significance of the Report to people concerned with Parliamentary reform. I was a member of this Sub-Committee. It was a valuable and rewarding experience. But I think my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) and my other colleagues on the Sub-Committee would agree that we could not conceivably have produced this Report had it not been for the fact that we had a special adviser in Professor Pyatt.
Thus, the first point which concerns my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State, but which I hope will also be taken note of by the Leader of the House, is that if there are to be further experiments with Select Committees it is essential that the precedent of this Sub-Committee should be followed and specialist advice provided.
Secondly, there is a good deal of controversy as to whether we need departmental or subject committees of the House. On the whole, the view seems to be held by most people concerned with Parliamentary reform that we should go for departmental committees, shadowing particular Ministries. The experience of this Sub-Committee suggests a contrary view. We were not a departmental but a subject committee. Because of this, we were able to examine a topic which runs across departmental boundaries.
The reason for the neglect of this topic in the past was precisely that it does run across departmental boundaries. It is the responsibility of everyone and therefore the responsibility of no one. But it is that kind of subject that is most susceptible to being inquired into by a Parliamentary Committee.
Mr. Hamling: Does not my hon. Friend agree that, if it had not been for this attitude, the Board of Trade would never have been set up?
Mr. Marquand: I am not sure that I follow what my hon. Friend means and which attitude he is referring to. The Board of Trade has been in existence since some time towards the end of the seventeenth century, so I am not sure whether he is saying that the attitude we now have is as antediluvian as the Board of Trade or whether the Board of Trade is an antediluvian as the attitude or what he is saying. But I am sure that he is right.
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I turn now to the meat of the Report and its relevance to the major issues of economic and, above all, social planning with which we are faced. Many of the hon. Members opposite who have spoken in the debate seem opposed to the very idea of economic planning. The hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) was even opposed to Keynesian economics and wanted to get right back to the early nineteenth century.
It is not as a result of doctrinaire ideological frenzy that Governments have started to embark on a path of economic planning. This was started by a Conservative Government and continued by a Labour Government. Should there ever be a Liberal Government, I am certain that it would follow the same path. If, which God forbid, the party opposite should once again occupy the Treasury Bench, it will be forced into the same path, no matter how frenzied the oratory of the hon. Member for Oswestry in opposition. All Governments are forced into this path, because it has now become quite clear that it is only if one is willing to engage in medium-term economic planning, only if one is willing to engage in detailed particularist intervention in the details of the economy, that one can provide the economic growth and the standard of living on which people in a democracy will insist.
What has emerged from the Report of the Sub-Committee and the evidence submitted to it is that new demands have been placed on the Government's statistical machine which, not surprisingly, was not adapted to deal with them. That is no reflection on the statistical machine, or on the Government, Inevitably, if new demands spring up they place strains on a machine not designed originally to meet them. Some hon. Members opposite have seemed to suggest that, because there are difficulty in the early stages of economic planning, we should turn our backs on the whole idea. That is an extraordinarily pessimistic view and the right conclusion is exactly the opposite—that because it is difficult, we need to perfect the machinery. That is what the Report is all about.
I want to mention one or two topics which fall under this general heading. First, it is clear from the Report that one of the major problems facing any Government wishing to carry out economic

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planning is the relationship between their short-term policies and medium and long-term policies. It is extremely difficult and extremely important to ensure that the short-term should not conflict with the long-term policies, and we have not reached the point where we have ensured that. I should like the Government to take very seriously the recommendations made and the considerations mentioned in the Report about the publication of the Government's short-term forecasts, so that much more work could be done, not only within the Government, but among interested bodies outside, on the refining of the techniques of short-term forecasting.
If that applies to short-term forecasting, it clearly applies even more to medium-term forecasting. This point is not made in the Report, but it is nevertheless very important. At the moment, we are given only the most hazy idea of the assumptions and procedures behind the medium-term forecasts on which the Government base their medium-term policies. I strongly suspect that what goes on inside the Government is still very unscientific and that people engaged in medium-term forecasting guess, or make hunches, or read into their own conjectures their own political assumptions, values and prejudices. But none of us can know, because none of us knows what are the assumptions and procedures used by the Government when they engage in medium-term forecasting. It is very important to a democracy and from the point of view of governmental efficiency that they should tear away the veil a little and reveal exactly what kind of thinking goes on when they produce their medium-term forecasts.
The second point under this general heading relates to regional policy. As several hon. Members have already mentioned it, I do not want to say much about it. I merely echo what was said by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North about its importance. I was a little disappointed that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary did not dwell at rather greater length on the importance of regional statistics. He said that Professor Jackson's report dealing with regional statistics was now in. I hope that the Government will be prepared to publish it, or at any rate to tell the
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public roughly what it contains, because it is of crucial importance.
I want also to concentrate on an aspect which to all of us who served on the Committee emerged as having tremendous potential importance, a matter which has been very much neglected up to now. This is the aspect of social statistics and social planning. In verbal evidence to the Committee, Professor Moser and witnesses from the Department of Education and Science were particularly vivid on this subject. It is clearly nonsensical to talk about economic planning divorced from social planning. It is nonsensical to imagine that a decision can be taken about the siting of a new university while ignoring the economic implications.
I go further than that. A university senate deciding whether to expand the production of physicists or of social phychologists, the kind of decision taken by universities all the time, should have to decide on what criteria the decision should be taken. At the moment, there are no criteria. It is purely guesswork, or preference, or log-rolling within the university, when clearly the decision has considerable economic and social implications. This is the kind of practical problem which the further development of social statistics would make easier. I urge my right hon. Friend to do all that he can to ensure that the Committee on Social Statistics which, according to the Treasury reply to the Report of the Estimates Committee, is at work, looks at this very important matter in the widest context.
I want finally to refer to the implications of the Report for the structure of government. One of the very strong impressions which I gathered from the hearings was that at the moment the co-ordinating of the C.S.O. is not adequate. The Parliamentary Secretary was very interesting when he discussed the way in which the statistical service had grown up. He pointed out that it had begun in all the Departments and that it was only much later that a central body had been set up. That clearly makes it even more important to ensure that that central body has the authority and power to insist that the Departments which collect the statistics collect them in terms of the overall interest of the whole Government economic planning machine and not simply their own Departmental interest.

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Clearly this is a subject of the very greatest importance, particularly to the hon. Gentleman's own Department of Economic Affairs. The Select Committee made two recommendations in this area. We recommended that consideration should be given to upgrading the position of the ear of the C.S.O., and we also recommended that the position of the C.S.O. in the Government machine should be re-examined. I am glad to see that the Department's reply to the Report accepts the first of these recommendations, but I am very disappointed by what seems to be the rather asinine observations of the Department to recommendation 23. The Treasury said:
"The position of the C.S.O. and the Government machine has recently been reviewed and the Government is satisfied that it is best left where it is."
The Treasury does not say why it is satisfied. It produces no evidence to prove that it ought to be satisfied, it simply tells us that it is satisfied. This seems to beg a very important question. The arguments which the defenders of the status quo put forward are that it is only if one locates the C.S.O. in a Cabinet office that it is free from departmental prejudice. This alone, it was said, could give it an impartial status, so that all the separate Departments would accept what it said without arguing. There is a very powerful argument on the other side if we are serious about economic planning. If we really want effective economic planning, we must have a planning Ministry in overall control of economic policy.
At the moment we do not have such a Ministry. We have a division between the D.E.A. and the Treasury. There is no doubt that with the existence of this division, the competing jurisdiction of these two Departments was one of the factors leading to the unfortunate events of last summer. If we believe in economic planning, we have somehow or other to face this issue. Either the Treasury must be the supreme economic co-ordinator and take over the economic planning function from D.E.A., or the D.E.A. must be the supreme economic co-ordinator and strip the Treasury of its economic functions, leaving it as a purely tax collecting Department. One of these two courses must be taken. I am convinced of this. Whichever Department is finally set up as a supreme economic planning Ministry, it
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is surely the right Department to have control of the statistical apparatus, which is the pre-requisite of effective economic planning.
8.3 p.m.
Mr. Michael Alison: I count it as a very great privilege to have been a member of the Sub-Committee of the Select Committee, and to have sat under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling), and also to take part in this debate. Not the least delightful and charming aspect of it has been the transformation of the hon. Member for Woolwich, West from the angel of light that he was as Chairman of the Sub-Committee into the voracious beast of a planner that we see in him now.
I detect a note of complacency and patronage on the part of those who have extolled the virtues of planning on the basis of this Report. I suspect that there is much less in it to support the advocates and champions of planning, whatever that may mean. It is a rather over-used word.
As a very general comment on what the hon. Member for Woolwich, West said in trying to draw his parallel between the evolution of Government statistics and the Christian religion, I would point out to him that one of the shrewdest things about the Christian religion was the advice given by the Apostle James in his Epistle, when he warned people who make plans about the future always to put at the end of their plans what has latterly come to be known as D.V. This is something which is overlooked. There are a whole lot of contingencies which are unplannable.
This is peculiarly so in the realm of government, if only because two of the most dynamic sectors in economic expansion, two of the most important components in total final demand, namely exports and investment, are almost entirely unplannable. Exports are certainly in this category. The factors governing the level of exports in the world are almost entirely unplannable by British governments.
Mr. Hamling: I would suggest that the hon. Gentleman reads the article in the Three Banks Review on this point.
Mr. Alison: I shall do that, but let us bear in mind that investment, the other big generative influence in economic

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activity, is very unpredictable and is certainly not, in the main, plannable by Government. A whole lot of other factors, confidence, expectations, hunches and adjustments, determine investment; and the more devolved investment decisions are, the less centrally planned, in contradiction to what the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) said, the more likely we are to avoid the sort of lurches to which we have had reference, the stop-go and the freeze, to which we have become accustomed.
We have not sufficiently appreciated, in considering the statistics that we have been examining, the extent to which the whole of the Government's statistical effort, the whole Government instrument of planning in the D.E.A. or the Treasury, is focused upon demand in the economy and the way in which the level of demand might be influenced by investment, consumption, stock building and the rest.
Having determined in advance that it is the level of demand which is the crucial factor in affecting the expansion or contraction of the economy, one has recourse to one's fiscal weapons. Perhaps it would not be out of place if I quote briefly from a comment made by Mr. Dow in his book, "The Management of the British Economy" which may well have come out with Government subsidy. The National Institute has some support from Government funds, so one could almost say that this is a semi-official production.
For those who put a lot of emphasis on planning, and the operation upon the level of demand through Government fiscal policies, and so on, it is worth reading something that Mr. Dow recorded about the operation of Government fiscal policy in the post-war years. He writes, on page 211:
"It suggests that the major variations of fiscal policy were in fact not stabilising, but rather themselves one of the main causes of instability; and that demand would have remained much more nearly in balance with supply if fiscal policy had, throughout the whole period, been less actively interventionist."
Here is a delicious phrase for the planners:
"It is indeed a question whether we have not been too clever by half; whether the economy cannot get on quite well without a hand on the steering wheel; whether even a good driver is an improvement on no driver at all. These are fundamental questions …"
Mr. R. B. Cant: I quoted that passage last week. Has the hon. Member read the quotation by Professor Paish in Lloyds Bank Review for December, 1965, in which he contradicts this conclusion?
Mr. Alison: I said that these are "fundamental questions.…" It is too easily and glibly assumed that all that we have to do is operate on the level of demand through fiscal policy and all our problems will be solved.
Mr. Hamling: There are many other things.
Mr. Alison: One of the reasons why members of the Labour Party place a lot of confidence in improving statistics—I agree that they should be improved—is to prevent the lurches—the stop-go. This is close to the heart of the hon. Member for Woolwich, West. But I hope he agrees that there has been staggering improvement in the lurches compared with pre-war times. There is no doubt that the settling down of pre-war trade cycles, with their mass unemployment, into the calmer waters of stop-go since the war has been a major boon to mankind.
Mr. Hamling: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that stop-go is a halfway house and that the lurches have been intensified? This is one of the gravest dangers that we face.
Mr. Alison: I am not sure that I go the whole way with the hon. Gentleman.
Again, I turn to this prophet of a semi-governmental body. Mr. Dow talks precisely about the relationship between expansion and stop-go. On page 397, he writes:
"It is often argued also that the 'stops and starts' of official policy have constantly interrupted business plans, and made firms less willing to plan for expansion. This is probably true to some extent. Yet it may be doubted whether a relatively passive policy of keeping the pressure of demand as steady as possible would alone be enough to make a radical difference to the rate of economic growth".
The premise that a better statistical service and surer operation on the level of demand would much influence the lurches and, secondly, that the lurches should self-evidently be influenced to get the rapid expansion which we want is false. We over-play the idea of fiscal

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operations, helped by better statistics as a means of getting steady expansion if we do not take other factors into account. There are many imponderables, uncertainties, psychological influences and confidence factors which are crucial.
I make no apology for being doubtful about planning if it is meant to subsume a whole lot of assumptions which are by no means demonstrable and clear. We should be much more pragmatic and open minded about it. We should put "D.V." after all our plans——
Mr. Hamling: Hear, hear.
Mr. Alison:—particularly because the crucial growth sectors are in exports, and in home investment which is very dependent on psychological factors. The more the risk is spread, the less the decisions are taken by a great central body, and the more diverse the appreciations of the way in which world trade and consumer preference will move, the better and more likely we are to steer an even course.
Therefore, do not let us have too much emphasis on central planning, which, from a Socialist point of view, means increasingly getting into the hands of Government those sectors in which one can dictate the investment plans and levels, like the nationalised industries. This is a very dangerous development, and it can lead to much worse lurches.
I wish to touch on one or two aspects of statistics in the Report which have struck me as being of interest. One of the things which comes through clearly—this is not a party point; the Parliamentary Secretary made it very fairly and reasonably in his brief historical reference to the evolution of statistics—is how comparatively recent are some of the basic statistics which are used in governing the level of demand. It struck me as remarkable that it was only in 1955 that we began to get quarterly figures for stock building. There was a variation as between 1963 and 1964 of over £400 million in stock building. Yet it was only in 1955, I understand—this was reported in the August, 1964, issue of Economic Trends—that we began to get quarterly figures. The instrument which we have in statistics is still blunt. It is rather like mediaeval surgery in its present stage of development.
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I do not feel that the quarterly figures for stock building are a serious blemish on the record of the Conservative Party. The Labour Party was in power for seven years from 1945, and it was only three years after we regained power that we began to get quarterly figures. Again it is remarkable that the Central Statistical Office nearly did not gather the information for input/output analysis for the 1958 census. It was only by a whisker that it decided to include it. When one looks at the information in the input/ output tables given in 1963 for managing the economy, one realises how very recent are some of the instruments for affecting demand and assessing the direction of the economy.
To me, one of the most fascinating figures in the 1963 input/output tables is the variation in the quantity of imports per £100 of manufactured production which is needed. We need exactly half the quantity of imports for Government current expenditure on goods and services which we need for consumer expenditure on goods and services. When the Government start reflating and switching away from Government expenditure on goods and services towards consumer expenditure they will give a sharp stimulus to imports. One of the things which the Government must be worrying about is that imports, with a swing to Government expenditure in current goods and services, have not dropped more rapidly. They will rise more dramatically when the switch comes.
Another thing which strikes me in looking over the evidence which we gathered and the Report which we made is how unrealiable, in many ways, even the Government's own steady and regular statistical figures are. In the definitive article on short term forecasting in the issue of Economic Trends for August, 1964, it is boldly stated that
"that forecasting processes rely rather extensively on programme or survey material—for example, public authorities' consumption and fixed investment"—
in other words, the sectors directly within the Government's purview. The main weight of statistical forecasting is based here for the short-term planning in which we are interested. Yet we find that in local authority expenditure, which must be one of the sectors on which the Government rely heavily, they have information about only three-quarters of local

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authority expenditure on goods and services. Since, in the current year, this is running at about £2,500 million, there is £600 or £700 million in the public sector, if Economic Trends for August, 1964, is to be believed, about which the Government have no information.
Mr. Hamling: Would the hon. Gentleman look at the article in the February, 1967, issue of Economic Trends on this subject
Mr. Alison: I read Economic Trends like the Scriptures. I shall read all the other books which the hon. Gentleman quoted.
Even within the sectors over which the Government have direct control—for example, local authority expenditure—they are, apparently, deficient in information to the extent of over £600 million worth of expenditure. This is staggering.
To come back to the key items in generating or retarding growth, namely, exports and investment, not only is the information sketchy, thin and poor, in the nature of things, but inevitably there is no prospect of improving the forecast of investment intentions other than by scooping the whole lot into the public sector and controlling it, which is a danger even worse than that which we face today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) got very close to part of one of the important deficiencies when he talked about the gold and foreign currency reserves and the uncertainties connected with them. One of the deficiencies from which we suffer in not having a common register is the collection of statistics by different Government bodies connected with their own operations.
A charming illustration which we have seen, which would be amusing if it had not such a critical effect on the fortunes of this country, is that the Department of Customs and Excise is responsible for the monthly trade figures. From an analysis which the National Institute carried out recently, it seems that the very sharp increase in exports registered in the last quarter of 1966, which must have had some effect upon confidence, gave a general indication of the pattern of the economy and made some people more optimistic than they should have been,
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was probably due to the fact that the Customs and Excise people found, after the end of the shipping strike in June, that there was a sudden rush of shipments.
However, they were all going on holiday, so they said, "We will defer all the paper work connected with the sudden upsurge in exports until the last quarter, when we come back from our holidays." The result was that there was a huge figure of exports in the last quarter of 1966, which was probably quite different from reality. But that is the way Government statistical services work.
I wonder whether the Committee's second Recommendation, dealing with the common register, about which the Parliamentary Secretary has spoken kindly and helpfully, will not to some extent overcome this sort of hazard, which is fortuitous and unnecessary whether or not one is a planner.
I want to refer with particular emphasis to the extraordinarily small number of statisticians. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us the figure of about 150. Here I speak not as a pro-planner or as an anti-planner but simply as a member of a community in which statistics are valuable for private industry as well as for public authorities. It is fantastic that the people capable of assessing and digesting this mass of statistics, especially from a non-common register, should be so few in number. Here I share the view of Dr. Balogh that there should be more of them in the higher echelons with a closer ear to the Minister. I am glad that the Committee has adopted something along these lines as its first Recommendation.
The methods of interpreting such statistics as we have at present are pretty blunt. It would be better if we had more statisticians and they had a closer ear to the Minister. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham, I believe that statistics are there to serve and not to dominate, and it is industry as much as anyone else that they should serve, rather than the Government. I detect a horrible trend in the way that the Government are operating. They want to get people into bigger units, partly because it simplifies, for example, the collection of statistics. It must be tempting in the Government machine to say, "If only we did not have to try to take the pulse of every little business firm in the country, it would be much easier."

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The trend is to get bigger units to simplify administration and the collection of statistics. The more that things are made into big units, the more clumsy and inflexible the economy becomes; and we shall never have control over the world market in which we work. Let us use statistics for the benefit of business and not to simplify the task of the Government. Let us bear in mind, particularly, that all Government planning is Deo volente.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. R. B. Cant: I am very glad to have this opportunity to read my essay to this select seminar—
Mr. Hamling: Gamma minus!
Mr. Cant: Most of the ground has been covered, but I want to make a few references to what is referred to as "short-term forecasting", almost entirely with reference to the national income, and to support the Committee's Recommendation 15.
I am a little worried about this nomenclature, because I thought that we were all planners now. I gather that some people are not planners at all. Some are short-term forecasters, others are long-term planners, and so on.
I was particularly interested when the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) said that he was neither a voluntary planner nor a compulsory planner. That took me back to 1934, when Mr. Macmillan published his seminal work on "The Middle Way". That reminds me that I share the disadvantage of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) in having learned my economics not only from Marshall. There must be a slight chronological discrepancy between us, but certainly I learned partly from Marshall and partly from Keynes——
Mr. Hamling: My hon. Friend might be interested to know that my teacher has just opened Keynes.
Mr. Cant: It was some time before my hon. Friend got round to it. As a result, I do not. share the enthusiasm of my hon. Friends for long-term planning or forecasting.
To some extent, we on this side of the House have been trying to run before we could walk as competently as would be desirable. I know that we have had
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our National Plan, and we keep reading about successors to it. We are told that the National Economic Development Council will be getting out a national economic strategy. Whatever it is called, if it is to be a long-term plan, we should be a little dubious about the conclusions which it reaches.
The Americans have just completed a long-term forecast of the United Kingdom economy which is summarised in the Management Journal for this month. It produces some exciting material. It is nice to know that, between now and 1975, the annual increase in the consumption of wine in this country will be at the rate of 4·679 per cent. compound interest. I hope that I live long enough to check that statistic. I think that we would do well to realise that even in the home of long-term planning, Moscow, they have not yet published the Five-year Plan which is supposed to extend from 1966 to 1971. Once we get into a society as sophisticated as ours, once we get away from millions of tons of steel and millions of yards of cheap textile material, in terms of production objective, long-term planning is a very sophisticated exercise.
How far are the statistics in relation to short-term planning adequate? In paragraph 77 we are told that the statistics are, on the whole, adequate to get the right answers, although it is conceded that there are considerable delays. This may be a question of resources, but when one goes to America and sees the Business Cycle Developments, a monthly publication giving up-to-date experience, one wonders whether even in Britain, which we know is a bit old-fashioned, we could not get more up-to-date information to help our forecasters.
Paragraph 79 says:
"Although witnesses as a whole were confident that the range of statistics available for forecasting exercises was generally adquate, fewer were satisfied with the extent to which they were analysed. The interpretation of data and the derivation from them of quantitative relationships is an integral part of the forecasting process, yet it is at this point that evidence taken by the Sub-Committee reveals the greatest shortcomings."
Perhaps to illustrate that I might use what may be a dangerous example in the light of what has been said by hon. Gentlemen opposite, the problem of controlling the level of aggregate demand in the economy.

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If one looks at the British situation in terms of monetary and fiscal policy, one sees that we have a policy mix which, if one asks why we use the techniques in this way, the answer is rather vague. For one reason or another, between 1945 and 1951 Labour Governments had cheap money, and a pretty astringent fiscal policy. The Conservatives were then returned. They insisted on placing much greater emphasis on monetary policy, only to find that this did not quite work as they expected it to, and so they began to lean on fiscal policy as well. Then, when the Radcliffe Committee Report was published in 1958, there was a feeling abroad that monetary policy was finished, and that the emphasis must be placed increasingly on fiscal policy, because the Radcliffe Committee persuaded us that there were all these terrible little things which had cropped up, like financial intermediaries, which, through their operation, frustrated monetary policy, and so on. What we have now as a policy mix really is nothing scientific at all, and when someone talks about hunches, and so on, one realises that this may have a great deal to do with it.
I think that I support the need for more statisticians. I do so not out of a dogmatic belief in the virtues of short-or long-term forecasting, but because I think that we should know, not so much what is going to happen in the future as a result of gazing in a crystal ball, but what will be the consequences of our actions. We do not know what the consequences of our current policies will be.
The hon. Gentleman quoted Dow. This is a massive piece of research, but now that an equally eminent, if not more eminent, economist, Professor Paish, says that his argument is not proven, surely this is a remarkable situation? If we look, in the context of the same sort of policy, at the controversy in Oxford Economic Papers, we get some economists arguing that fiscal policy is wrong because every time the Chancellor budgets to do something, for example, to have a large surplus above the line, he gets a small one. In other words, there is a negative correlation, and other people accept this, but they say that it does not mater.
I want more statisticians simply to have the consequences of our policies resolved and explained. This will be more import-
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ant in the future, because it is obvious that hon. Gentlemen opposite are becoming more and more convinced intellectually by the philosophy emanating from Hobart House, which is coming across the Atlantic, and which is really doing something to try to redress the balance.
Mr. Martin Maddan: Is not Hobart House the headquarters of the National Coal Board? Does not the hon. Gentleman mean Hobart Place?
Mr. Cant: I am sorry. I am not familiar with the headquarters of these reactionary institutions. The hon. Gentleman may well be right.
The situation in America is a good illustration. We have converted the Americans to Keynesianism only to find that they are now reconverted to a belief in the old-style monetary theory. It is obvious that we have progressed from the quantity theory to Keynesianism and that there is a powerful reaction both here and particularly in America—among the Congressional Joint Economic Committee—to reassert the power of the banks and the importance of monetary philosophy.
There is an excellent illustration in the monthly Economic Letter of the First National City Bank, which says that the President of the United States has been told quite clearly by his Congressional Joint Economic Committee that his advisers belonging to the Administration who have been telling him that what is needed to control the economy is fine tuning through fiscal policy are quite wrong, and that monetary policy is the important thing. As one member said:
"We now see it as the task of monetary policy to set the growth path for the domestic economy, and it is the task of fiscal policy to achieve the money and capital market conditions that will validate this course."
A Mr. Mills is more poetic:
"We must not let ourselves be put into the position of raising or lowering the hemlines of taxation from season to season merely to make the merchandise more salable."
We do not know enough about the impact of our monetary and fiscal policies upon the general development of demand in the economy. I would support an addition to the statistical staff on this ground alone.
The hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) was right to say that mere

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statisticians are not enough. We need not only a policy mix but also a professional mix, of statisticians, economists, accountants, and socialogists, for satisfactory short-term forecasting. Resources must be increased, but how? Professor Cairncross revealed in his evidence that there are effectively only two full-time statisticians—not 150—doing what he calls "fundamental research" into these problems. How are we to increase this number?
We must certainly increase the staff of the Treasury or the D.E.A. I am worried about the Government comment in the Report that the universities will be asked to do a little in addition. In the official document beloved of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West Economic Trends, February, 1967, what is said about economists in universities I dare not even put on record.
It is obvious that there is a certain disillusionment about the contribution that members of universities can make in this context. I would wholeheartedly support additional funds and resources being made available to the National Institute of Social and Economic Research. There is great virtue, if not in independence then at least in quasi independence, and these people do a remarkable job and should have their resources increased.
One cannot talk about countervailing power when talking about a few people engaged on work at the National Institute and two doing fundamental research in the Treasury. This work is obviously of a practical nature and must be supported. That is why I support the Report's suggestion rather than the Government's comeback on it, so to speak.
8.41 p.m.
Mr. Edwin Brooks: My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Cant) likened the debate to a learned seminar. If I accepted that definition I might not feel disposed to take part in it, not having been a member of the Committee which presented the Report nor having had time to read in full the admirable document which it presented. However, feeling that this is more like a teach-in, I will make a brief contribution, remembering that Parkinson might appreciate the need for talk to fill the time available.
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I regret that the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) has left the Chamber, for reasons which he explained. I wondered whether he had fled into the night because he was aghast at the enormities of our statistical, or mystical statistical, civilisation. I felt that he was speaking for no more than his own peculiar brand—that brand of perverse genius; the true-blue Enoch-hite—and it is really unnecessary for me to do more than comment on a few of the remarks he made.
It may seem odd—certainly, some of my constituents may think it so—that his sentiments should have been echoed by the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) from the Opposition Front Bench. He said, "We"—I take it that he meant it in the collective and not in the royal sense—"do not accept planning of any sort. We accept forecasting." There was no qualification of any sort to that argument. When he was pressed to qualify it, and the forms of planning he had in mind, it was obvious that his definition was so comprehensive as to exclude little or nothing.
The hon. Member made an extraordinary distinction and, to put it kindly, he indulged in a form of intellectual mumbo-jumbo in attempting to argue that one can distinguish between planning and forecasting in that way. There is, of course, a distinction to be drawn between forecasting and what one might do on the basis of demographic data. Indeed, this is being done all the time. If one assumes that the population of Britain will be at a certain level in 10, 20, or 30 years from now, one is indulging in a form of forecasting, but the consequences of making those assumptions require immediate attention to the planning of schools, houses, roads, and so on. One cannot have a totally passive view of society; just sitting back, waiting for things to turn up. This approach to society seems to be the prevailing ethos of the party opposite. It is a pity that hon. Gentleman opposite should have chosen this debate to express such extraordinary and antediluvian sentiments.
Mr. Hamling: Would my hon. Friend explain how it is possible to forecast what will happen if one does not do anything?
Mr. Brooks: That is an excellent question, on which we might have a debate one day.

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It would be unkind to argue that we have been listening to neanderthal or even caveman sentiments being expressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite because even cavemen used to paint animals on the walls of their caves—not because they were exceptionally skilled artists, but because, in their magical and ritual way, they thought that by painting arrows into the hearts of beasts they were planning their own environment. That was probably the earliest form of planning. Perhaps we are vulnerable to the same sort of symbolism today.
It is one thing to argue that the statistics we have are inadequate—I suppose that they could never be completely adequate—but it is another to argue that, because they are inadequate, we are not right in endeavouring to have a hand in the workings of our society.
It would be just as acceptable and just as honest to argue that because our statistics are inadequate, by not intervening it would follow that the circumstances would be that much worse. It would simply be unprovable. I should have thought it far more important to discuss ways in which to make our statistics more accurate and more fitted to do the job they are supposed to be doing, than to cast these various stones at those who for many years have been trying to improve the quality of our statistical information.
The delays that accompanied the publication of the 1961 census have been mentioned in passing several times in this debate. I do not think that we should pass this over lightly because, without question, those delays have had some of the most serious consequences on our understanding of many basic aspects of our society during the last five or six years. These delays are described in some detail in the Report in that section submitted by the General Register Office.
It is pointed out, very frankly, that mistakes were made in the
"… time required to write programmes and get them into working order …"
It is stated that the amount of computer running time was under-estimated, and it was. The original estimate was 350 hours for the whole census, and the memorandum says that that time has
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been multiplied by two or three to allow for extensions to the tabulation programme.
But even that figure falls remarkably short of the total of over 15,000 hours which, in the event, were found necessary. This is an escalation of forty-three times and I think that it would—though only just—make some of our aircraft escalation costs look comparatively slight. It may be true that mistakes such as this and others are described as worthy of explanation, but there was another aspect of this that I should like to touch on.
The memorandum also states:
"Another variable factor in census costing is the method of processing the data. A computer was used for the first time in 1961, but the installation belonged to the Defence Ministry (Army Department) …"
The census had no computer of its own to call on and, inevitably, as the escalation in running time was found to be necessary so it became more and more difficult to fit the census schedules into those made available by the Defence Ministry. The obvious answer is that the census must be given a priority if it is as important as many of us believe it to be. If it is the great Domesday survey we carry out every 10 years—indeed, every five years, on a sample basis—we cannot give it this sort of subordinate status.
Here, the General Register Office has been far too coy in asking for what is necessary. It says:
"For a full Census with early publication of the result"—
and surely this is vital—
"the costs of the appropriate machine installation could easily be as high as £500,000."
I suppose that at the moment we are all astonished that so much could be asked of us as £500,000. During the last few days it has been announced in the House that the research and development costs of the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft have been increased by £50 million on the estimate we had roughly a month earlier; and roughly a month ago we had an estimate involving an increase of £50 million added to that which we had been given a month before that.
Fifty million pounds is a hundred times the cost of this expenditure for

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which the census is asking. If this is the language of priorities to which the Government are wedded, we are in need of a course of speech training. A Government who can take planning seriously—and I hope we take it seriously—must fashion the tools they need, not some sort of flint axes which no doubt hon. Members opposite would like to see.
I have touched on the question of the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft as this illustrates one aspect of the problem we face today in terms of our deficiencies in statistics to which Professor Stone was right to draw attention in his contribution. He discussed the profitability criteria and said:
"A second example can be taken from a subject that is beginning to be studied about the size and effect of which all too little is known: research and development. This is important in industry but it is also important from outside it. Industrially speaking, we undertake the research and development we think we can afford and charge it off to current expense, although it is as much directed to the future as any expenditure on fixed assets. We do not inquire into its pay-off, depreciation rate or obsolescence. We have, therefore, no means of assessing how far the scarce resources applied to research and development are applied profitably."
This is an extremely important point. Several of us in the House, in recent months, have been curious about the technological fall-out which might accrue from the Anglo-French Concord project and the figures released about the cost are £500 million. It is true to say that virtually no hon. Member has any detailed breakdown figure beyond the very crudest assessments. That figure of £500 million may not be anything like enough. Only yesterday there was a report in the Daily Express under a headline saying that the cost might soar to £650 million. We are so punch-drunk with these escalating costs that to give figures like these means nothing more than a yawn of resignation. It is extremely important that we should have adequate statistical information, simply information, on which we as Members of the House of Commons may know precisely how and why our money is being spent in these enormous quantities.
Mr. Shore: It would be interesting to note that the triennial surveys of R and D expenditure which have been the pattern up to date, and of which I think the
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last one was in 1964–65, are now to be made up on an annual series which we are hoping to introduce for 1966–67.
Mr. Brooks: I am delighted to have that information. I am sure that it is a step in the right direction. I hope that my hon. Friend will persist in this improvement despite the agony which no doubt it will cause among some hon. Members opposite.
The census was delayed and we all hope that this will not happen again. Professor Stone made an important point about this. It is not enough simply to accept that there were delays. It is not enough simply to know in broad terms why those delays occur. We need a more sophisticated and refined approach which is lacking in so many sectors. Professor Stone also said:
"I wonder how much is known about the limiting factors in statistical work. For example, has anyone made a critical path analysis of a census of production or population from the moment work was started on the design of the questionnaires to the moment when the final publication of the results appeared? Such a study might be highly illuminating because delays and expense can be due to so many factors."
I will not continue with this quotation. It is one of the many valuable points which Professor Stone made.
I want to touch upon the problem of flexibility and, married to it, the problem of the availability of statistics. One of the disturbing things about the debate—indeed, at times I should think that we were already on the Adjournment if I did not know that our modernised procedure makes this impossible on a Thursday—is that so few Members; I think roughly 1 per cent. of our total strength—turn up for this sort of debate.
This is the real problem at all levels of our society. It is simply that we have become constipated with statistics and words; that so much is now available, so much that we could go to if only we had the time. But, unfortunately, we never have the time. The problem of making the results of statistical analysis available, and the form in which it is made available for ready consumption, is worth stressing.
We need to reconsider seriously the very form of presentation of things like censuses. Perhaps we still have a Domesday mentality about this. This

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great Juggernaut of an enterprise trundles into action every 10 years, and it takes about 10 years to have its results made available. There is here some merit in a point made by the General Register Office. Discussing the problem of flexibility the General Register Office first discusses the use of enumeration district figures as basic building blocks. It then says:
"We have received, and largely met, a considerable demand for figures for non-administrative areas. Figures are counted for enumeration districts (the area allotted to one enumerator) and provided on request."
This is done for many universities.
"The enumeration district figures can then be used as building blocks for aggregations to the areas required by the particular user."
Parliamentary constituencies are to be analysed in this form. No doubt many of us will hasten to study at least those statistics. This point can be widened, because we need to be able to make ad hoc tabulations from basic records at all levels.
A little further on the General Register Office makes the point that today outside the Government
"the big demand is for more sophisticated statistics at local level.… Generally people probably do not expect much more than they get but a greater ability to make ad hoc tabulations from the basic records for individual inquirers would be valuable.'
At the moment, it may be argued that those great beds of census data are there waiting to be mined and quarried for information. I doubt very much if there is much noise of pick-axes at work at this moment throughout the counties. I suspect that we are still, with a sort of magpie Victorian mentality, producing mountains of paper which we can look at and admire but never use. Statistics are there to be used. They are not there to be stored.
An important point made by the General Register Office—the implementation depends very much upon the availability of computer techniques—is this:
"It is possible to see that the emphasis may move away from volumes of published tables towards the establishment of a store of data which can be processed to meet requirements of individual Government Departments, local authorities, and private and commercial organisations."
There are various ways in which one can supplement the general information
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made available by the census. There is the possibility of sample surveys. Time forbids me from discussing this in any detail. I will mention in particular the enormous gap in our information in general which arises because of our failure to analyse migration. Migration is surely one of the most important factors in a society like ours and will become increasingly so, because the mobility of the population will inexorably increase.
Again, I consider that we should be trying to co-ordinate the work which is being done. For example, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government runs a series of research techniques and studies, which it is pursuing at this moment, but which, as far as one can see, do not seem to be generally available. It is work of that kind which should be coordinated with the work done in the census, by universities and other bodies.
Because, for some years, I tried to teach students geography, I wish to emphasise one aspect of statistics which is not touched on in detail in this major and valuable Report. I refer to the rôle of the map. In a sense, the map is a form of statistical representation. One notes the information down by the use of two co-ordinates, latitude and longitude, and the map is a veritable storehouse of information. On a map, a gigantic amount of information can be summarised' in tabular form which most people can easily comprehend.
We have been very slow to use maps, in which I include graphical techniques generally, as a means of general education. In the 1930s, a major land use survey was carried out in this country which, I understand, was of great value during the Second World War, but it was carried out to a large extent by schoolchildren and students who went out on a locally organised basis, though the work was effectively co-ordinated, of course, and some excellent maps were produced. This was done outside the Government's activities in general. In more recent years, a second major land use survey has been embarked upon in, roughly, a similar way.
The Ministry of Agriculture has a vast amount of information available to it. It is not too much to ask that this information be used as the basis upon which we could have regular and up-to-date publication of land use and other specialised maps showing agricultural and other data.

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Again, on the subject of maps, one should not forget that by the skilful blending together of statistical information in map form by using techniques of correlation analysis, one can very often point to significant relationships which might otherwise be lost. Some of the most important work—certainly some of the most interesting—in the whole field of social medicine has come about in the last ten years as a result of simple mapping. I say "simple", but it was a complex job, mapping the data related to mortality rates from different diseases in different parts of the country. For the first time, one was able to see significant regional variations which, if they do not answer the questions, at least do a lot to provoke the asking of the right questions.
As a non-member of the Committee, I warmly congratulate all those who participated in producing what will, I know, be a valuable contribution to our knowledge of the Government's statistical services.
9.4 p.m.
Mr. Martin Maddan: I apologise for being a latecomer to the debate. I had to attend a Standing Committee which, we were led to believe, would rise at about 6.30, but which did not rise until about three-quarters of an hour ago.
I begin by congratulating the hon. Gentleman the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) and his Committee on the excellent Report which they have produced on a most important topic. I shall direct my remarks to Recommendation (8), which urges wider use of official statistics in industry and commerce, Recommendation (12), which urges that the C.S.O. should become a more powerful body in this respect, and Recommendation (13), which suggests the establishment of a standing committee on industrial statistics.
I speak here in my capacity as Chairman of the Market Research Society's Government Liaison Committee. We have for three years now been trying to see how the Government can be encouraged to make available, and make available in more usable form, data which we know they have and which is of great value to industry and commerce. One of the things that daunts anybody tackling this task, whether it is our little Committee, the National Economic Development
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Organisation, the Select Committee or, indeed, the Government, is that the very amount of data which they have makes them back away from reaching an organisational solution which will have to be a radical change from what we have now. The very magnitude of the value of the data makes them back away from making it widely available, and without radical changes in organisation we shall not get progress.
The Committee to which I have referred had the honour to have with us at one unofficial gathering the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and a senior official member of the Department of Economic Affairs. Arising from that gathering, I was asked to obtain from members of the Market Research Society details of information which we knew must be available in Government Departments but which was not being made available outside. Those details have been summarised and I have here 30 items. The list has been sent to the hon. Gentleman and I see that the Under-Secretary of State is aware of this. If we can help with further details we shall be glad to supply them.
We have summarised the present list as much as we can, with a lot of appendices. In each case, where relevant, we have put down whether the question of payment for the data had been raised from either side. I want to impress on the Under-Secretary of State that industry and commerce generally are willing to pay a great deal for the data. The data are very valuable and the Government need not say, "We must have more officials. It is an overhead charge." The hon. Gentleman could very well run the service at a profit.
I say that with great certainty, because I am in business in market research. Much of our work consists of finding comparatively inefficiently, by expensive sampling methods, data already in the archives referred to by the hon. Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks).
Probably nobody has read the opening paragraph of the Departmental Observations on the Estimates Committee's Ninth Special Report, but it filled me with dismay. It say:
"Your Committee, having received the following Observations of the Treasury, the Department of Economic Affairs, the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour, the Central

851
Statistical Office and the Registrars General of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland …"
I am very surprised that in a Report of this sort there were no observations from the Ministries of Technology, Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and Transport. It cannot be maintained that the central drive towards improving statistics in the Government machine is adequate. If it were, there would certainly have been observations from many more quarters than are listed there.
I want to turn to one of the Ministries that is not listed there, the Ministry of Transport, where there seem to be many fundamental misapprehensions and misconceptions about one very important set of statistics based on vehicle licences. To make the argument shorter and simpler, I shall confine myself to new vehicles. When members of the public buy a new motor car they register it with a local authority. What happens to those data? Among other things, by arrangements with the Ministry of Transport, they go to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, which analyses them and makes them available only to British vehicle manufacturers.
It is maintained that this restriction on the data is in the public interest. I find it hard to know why that should be so. I have a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, dated 13th October, in which he said:
"My Department's stand on not releasing this information has not been taken on legal grounds, but on the general practice of Government Departments in this country, not to publish figures whether collected voluntarily or compulsorily, or obtained as the by-product of regulation, which would reveal the business of individual firms, except with their express permission … I do not think that we can usefully add anything to what was then said either here or in a get-together as you suggest."
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman wanted a get-together because he would have been unable to maintain his position.
This data is not provided by the vehicle manufacturers but by the public. If the Ministry arranges for it to be made available to anyone, it must be made available on equal terms to everyone. This misconception that vehicle licence statistics are somehow the property of the vehicle manufacturers is perpetrated
852
again in the observation on recommendation No. 11 which says:
"Some basic statistics (for example, of profits, revenue car registrations) arise from administrative requirements and firms devise record systems to provide them."
No firm devises any system to provide vehicle licence data. It comes from the public.
I do not suggest that Ministers should suppress these statistics. I only ask that they should release them generally. I think that their position is indefensible. I am shortly to talk to the Chairman of the Working Party of the S.S.M.T. on the services the Society provides to see whether I can persuade him that this information should be made available more widely by the Society. Of course, that would still only be making them available on the present basis and would not be getting acceptance of the principle that these statistics are not the property of the vehicle manufacturers or the S.S.M.T. and should not be confined to them.
In The Times of 19th April, we read that there is to be a central office for motor vehicle registrations and licences which will not be fully in operation until 1972, and that the transfer of statistics from the licensing authorities will take place in that way. When that happens, if not before, I hope that the sort of statistics I have been talking about and the use and availability of them can be confined not only to new vehicles as at present, but to all vehicles, because this is important.
Mr. Hamling: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a great many statistics about vehicles which are available to and are made available by the industry in the United States are not available here?
Mr. Maddan: I have a list of 77 countries showing that they all make more data available than we do. Every other Western motor manufacturing country makes available this data. Their industries do not seem to suffer, but benefit. It is not only the motor manufacturers themselves who want to know but the component suppliers and the distributive trade.
The Motor Traders' Association has installed a computer to help its members organise their stock levels, but it has not

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the basic data. It is no good motor manufacturers saying that it is only their business. It is not. It is everyone's business. This is such a huge sector of the economy that we have to seek a change.
I shall not go on at length about this one example. Recommendation 12 of the Select Committee says:
"The C.S.O. should become the agency for encouraging enquiries for statistical information from industry …".
This should be given a warmer welcome by the Government than it has been in their observation.
What daunts and dismays people trying to use data is knowing where to get it. The Under-Secretary may indeed know, but it is extremely difficult to know, if one wants data about some engineering component, whether to go to the Ministry of Technology, or, if the component is imported, to the Board of Trade, or to both, or to somewhere else. The very biggest firms may be able to have enough experts to know, but only the very biggest, and the medium and small firms never approach it. I beg the Under-Secretary to put my Committee out of a job and out of its misery by encouraging the Central Statistical Office to take on this task.
One of the functions which a strengthened Central Statistical Office would have would be chivvying the general attitude of Government Departments towards making data available for industry. I am told by sales managers of firms in the grocery business, for example, that the Statistical Department of the Board of Trade is very reluctant to pass on data to individual companies, although
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those companies are willing to pay the cost. It seems to be a long process and although that Department does not refuse, apparently such requests are neither welcomed nor dealt with swiftly.
Another example is that of the rubber manufacturing industry. The monthly figures prepared by the Board of Trade are often months behind. The people who told me about this found out that one reason was that one of the divisions of their own company was causing the delay. No one in the Board of Trade had complained or pushed or kicked to ask why that division was not getting on with providing the figures. The whole thing is too lackadaisical. I could give other examples, but, in view of the hour and the Under-Secretary's forthcoming attitude, I do not intend to do so.
I hope that, as a result of the work of the Select Committee, great attention will be given to making it easier for industry and commerce to use official statistics and that the Government will gear themselves to meet that need.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the Fourth Report from the Estimates Committee and of the Ninth Special Report from the Estimates Committee relating to Government Statistical Services.

GOVERNMENTAL STATISTICAL SERVICES (ESTIMATES COMMITTEE REPORTS)

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gourlay.]
  Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes past Nine o'clock.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Gibraltar
  Gibraltar
  Developing Countries (Official Resources)
  Developing Countries (Official Resources)
  Ghana (Aid)
  Ghana (Aid)
  Departmental Expenditure (Research)
  Departmental Expenditure (Research)
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Interest-Free Loans
  Interest-Free Loans
  Aid Programme
  Aid Programme
  India (Aid)
  India (Aid)
  Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland and Mauritius
  Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland and Mauritius
  Voluntary Societies (British Council)
  Voluntary Societies (British Council)
  Commonwealth University Students (Fees)
  Commonwealth University Students (Fees)
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Fire Service (Pay Awards)
  Fire Service (Pay Awards)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  University Management (Student Participation)
  University Management (Student Participation)
  Overseas Students (Fees)
  Overseas Students (Fees)
  Conference of European Ministers, Athens (Minister's Visit)
  Conference of European Ministers, Athens (Minister's Visit)
  School Building Programmes (Priorities)
  School Building Programmes (Priorities)
  British Bio-Physical Society
  British Bio-Physical Society
  Angling (Grants)
  Angling (Grants)
  Research and Development (Expenditure)
  Research and Development (Expenditure)
  Colleges of Education (Grants)
  Colleges of Education (Grants)
  Proton Accelerator (British Support)
  Proton Accelerator (British Support)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Juvenile Courts (Names)
  Juvenile Courts (Names)
  Commonwealth Immigrants (London Airport)
  Commonwealth Immigrants (London Airport)
  Gold Consignment (Notice to Police)
  Gold Consignment (Notice to Police)
  Tattooing (Legislation)
  Tattooing (Legislation)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (BACK BENCHERS)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (BACK BENCHERS)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Agricultural Machinery (Investment Grants)
  Agricultural Machinery (Investment Grants)
  Butter
  Butter
  Dairy Products
  Dairy Products
  Eggs
  Eggs
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Scotch Whisky (Clearances from Bond)
  Scotch Whisky (Clearances from Bond)
  Travel Allowance (Canada)
  Travel Allowance (Canada)
  Betting Duty (Receipts)
  Betting Duty (Receipts)
  Income Tax (Dividends and Interest)
  Income Tax (Dividends and Interest)
TECHNOLOGY
  Anglo-French Variable Geometry Aircraft
  Anglo-French Variable Geometry Aircraft
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
  North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
  F111K Aircraft
  F111K Aircraft
  Far East
  Far East
  REGIONAL GOVERNMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  REGIONAL GOVERNMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  CENTRAL ADVISORY COUNCIL FOR SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
  CENTRAL ADVISORY COUNCIL FOR SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
  INNS OF COURT (STUDENTS' FEES)
  INNS OF COURT (STUDENTS' FEES)
  PERSONAL INJURY (ASSESSMENT OF DAMAGES)
  PERSONAL INJURY (ASSESSMENT OF DAMAGES)
COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Gibraltar Airport
  Gibraltar Airport
  Swaziland (Civil Servants)
  Swaziland (Civil Servants)
  Indian Ocean (Military Bases)
  Indian Ocean (Military Bases)
  Commonwealth Day (Celebration)
  Commonwealth Day (Celebration)
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Exhibition Industry (Wage Increases)
  Exhibition Industry (Wage Increases)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Connections (Scotland)
  Connections (Scotland)
  Waiting List (Birmingham)
  Waiting List (Birmingham)
POST OFFICE
  Telecommunications Plant (Scotland)
  Telecommunications Plant (Scotland)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  House of Commons (Upper Committee Corridor)
  House of Commons (Upper Committee Corridor)
  Building Construction (Housing)
  Building Construction (Housing)
BOARD OF TRADE
  British Exports (New Zealand)
  British Exports (New Zealand)
AVIATION
  Supersonic Aircraft (Restrictions)
  Supersonic Aircraft (Restrictions)
  Civil Aircraft (Noise)
  Civil Aircraft (Noise)
  London Airport (Night Flights)
  London Airport (Night Flights)
  Third London Airport (Stansted)
  Third London Airport (Stansted)
SCOTLAND
  Prisons
  Prisons
  Juvenile Delinquents
  Juvenile Delinquents

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln.

NUCLEAR POWER DEVELOPMENT AND COST
3.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement concerning the allegations of Mr. Duncan Burn in his book, The Political Economy of Nuclear Energy, that Britain no longer leads the world in the development of civil nuclear power.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, in comparing the costs of different reactor systems it is essential to establish exact comparability, in relation both to the financial and operating conditions and to the physical environment of the station. Mr. Burn's comparisons of unit generating costs are vitiated by the failure to ensure strict comparability.
Although by 1970 the U.S.A. will become the largest producer of nuclear power, if their present plans are operated according to timetable, the fact is that at the moment Britain has generated three times as much nuclear power as the United States and considerably more than the whole of the rest of the world put together. The background of reliability in operation of our reactors underlying this experience, taken with our development of the advanced gas-cooled reactor, the steam generating heavy water reactor, and the fast reactor, and our participation with our Continental friends in the Dragon high temperature gas-cooled reactor, casts some doubt on Mr. Burn's allegation that the British reactor programme is unduly restricted. It is generally accepted that Britain has
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an appreciable lead over any other country, except possibly the Soviet Union, in fast reactor development.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer, which is most reassuring. It is exactly what I wanted to hear from him. There are one or two additional questions. I wonder whether the noble Lord would amplify the point about the difference in the computation of costs. It is extremely important. Could he also give the Government's view on Mr. Burn's suggestions regarding the avoidance of monopoly, the undesirability of creating a single design organisation and that companies should become responsible for the development of different reactors—in short, that the A.E.A. should be more like the A.E.C.? Could the noble Lord comment on these suggestions?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, as I am sure the noble Earl knows, the assumptions on which the costing of output is based in this country are a life of the generating station of 20 years and a load factor of 75 per cent., whereas in the United States they assume a life of 30 years and a load factor of 85 per cent. If we accepted their assumptions for the purpose of costing we should find that even the last four of the stations built under the Magnox programme would be producing cheaper electricity than their coal-fired contemporaries.
As for the second part of the noble Earl's question about the structure of the industry in this country, I think I can say that both my right honourable friends the Minister of Technology and the Minister of Power are very concerned to get the most efficient possible structure. That does not mean to say that we accept that for the circumstances in this country the set-up in the United States would be appropriate. Nevertheless, my two right honourable friends are discussing this whole question with the A.E.A., the Central Electricity Generating Board and the three consortia, to see what changes, if any, may be effected.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, would not the Minister agree that his answer shows how advisable it would be to adopt the

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assumptions which I have always advocated—namely, 85 per cent. availability and a 30-year life for atomic-power generation, which is the same as that adopted in the United States? Is he further aware that the scientific correspondent of the Financial Times has already replied to this allegation very effectively, and that our commercial competitors abroad always take advantage of this national habit of denigration, to our detriment?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, in reply to the first part of the noble Lord's question, I think he would probably agree that so far as our national resources are concerned it makes very little difference whether we accept a 20-year or 30-year assumption. I agree that from the point of view of publicity, however, it might have been more effective had we been a little less cautious and conservative than we have been. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord on his second point. There are too many people very ready to allow their prejudices to overcome their assessment of technical facts in order to run down their own country.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, is the noble Lord not able to say that the fast breeder reactor, the prototype of which is being erected at Dounreay, is in advance of any other system?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think that if the noble Lord looks at the last part of my first Answer he will see that I said precisely that.

YEMENI TERRITORIAL WATERS CLAIM
3.11 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, although they do not recognise the republican Government of the Yemen, they will make it clear that they will not under any circumstances recognise the purported extension of the off-shore territorial limits of the Yemen to twelve miles, and that they will take all necessary action to avoid any interference by the republican Yemeni authorities with the British territories of Kamaran and Perim.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, since Her Majesty's Government are not in relations with the Yemeni republican authorities the question of recognising any extension of Yemeni territorial waters does not arise. I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government will take any action necessary to prevent interference by the Yemeni authorities with the islands of Kamaran and Perim.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the remark made, evidently in an unguarded moment, in New York recently by Mr. Makkawi, the FLOSY leader, to the effect that it is their intention, once the British leave, to set up a Socialist Republic in South Arabia, and use their strategic position to interfere with so-called imperialist Anglo-American shipping and also with Israeli shipping? May I ask him whether there is any indication that the proposed extension of Yemeni territorial waters to 12 miles forms part of these designs against Israel?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, first of all, what Mr. Makkawi may have said about what he intends to do would, I should have thought, be going beyond the Question on the Order Paper. It is more a matter of wishful thinking on Mr. Makkawi's part. However, I will not comment further on that. As to the second part of the noble Lord's question, the fact is that the extension of any territorial waters, or the declared extension of any territorial waters, cannot affect the status of islands which belong to or are dependencies of another country and which are within the additional area of sea now claimed. So far as access to the Red Sea is concerned, this is guaranteed by international convention, and we should seek to ensure that that convention is observed.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, would my noble friend rule out the advisability of a naval patrol of the Straits of Perim, similar to that of the Straits of Mozambique, in order to protect the integrity of these offshore islands?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I rather imagine that my noble friend is exaggerating the potentiality of the Yemeni authorities.

GREEK GOVERNMENT AND CIVIL LIBERTIES
3.14 p.m.
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they have taken to express their strong disapproval of the nature and actions of the present Government in Greece.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the situation in Greece is still developing and it might be harmful at this stage to pass judgment, but I am confident that the Greek Government and people are in no doubt about the strong feelings which are held in this country, and in many other countries, on civil liberties and democratic rights.
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, I find it very unsatisfactory. Will the Government declare their intention not to recognise the self-appointed Government of Greece, against the will of the Greek people, and urge on their Minister in Athens to impress the authorities that the General Election projected for May 28 should proceed, with all parties participating?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am bound to say that I deeply appreciate the noble Lord's interest in democratic rights. So far as the question of recognition is concerned, this was dealt with by a Question earlier this week. I should have thought that all of us in this country would hope that Greece will return to constitutional government as early as possible. But I do not think it would necessarily bring that about if we appeared to be preaching to them now.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind when considering any future action in regard to this deplorable business, which we hope will soon be resolved, that there is in Greece a widespread and understandable fear of Communist excesses, of which they had all too great experience during the later war years and the years immediately after the war?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I really have nothing to add to what I have already said.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he does not think that in foreign affairs it is often a good thing to "mind your own business"?
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, is the Minister aware that we who were in Greece at the time of these calamitous events were besieged by our many friends in various walks of life—artists, architects, writers, university professors and so on—of all political Parties, to do what we could in Britain to urge our Government and the British people to help them to get rid of this ignominious military dictatorship, and help to restore the Constitution and hold a General Election?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am aware of the noble Lord's interest. I am aware, too, of the fact that one of the more notable Members of your Lordships' House died in Greece fighting for the independence of that country, I think 143 years ago this month. I should hope that it would still be possible for Greece to come through these struggles to a Parliamentary and constitutional form of government.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, is it not a curious thing that people who are most anxious to reduce our position as a world Power should also be most anxious to dictate to foreign Governments how they should behave?
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, while I appreciate that Her Majesty's Government have not had time to evaluate what is happening in Greece, may I ask my noble friend whether he can assure the House that, if and in so far as the actions of the Greek Government violate the principles of the NATO Charter, Her Majesty's Government will make protests through the appropriate organ of NATO?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, at the moment, our principal concern is to protect the rights of the British people there. I will again say that it is one thing to hold views about the virtues or otherwise of a foreign Government, but that we do not necessarily further our views simply by publicly preaching to that Government.
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, in view of the fact that the Greek monarchy exists to-day largely due to British policy after the Second World War, and in view of the reports in the Press to the effect that King Constantine was reluctant to endorse the actions of Fascist officers, and did so only under coercion, would the Government consider making a statement to indicate that the democratic people of this country would be with him if he restored the Constitution and held the elections that he promised?
LORD BESWICK: No, my Lords. I think it is agreed that the King of Greece behaved with very commendable and considerable courage and that his influence has been used in order to moderate any extremist action. I think, in the light of the courage and wisdom shown, there is all the more reason why we should not attempt to tell him what to do.

POLICE (SCOTLAND) (NO. 2) BILL [H.L.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LORD HUGHES): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to police forces in Scotland and to the execution of warrants in the border counties of England and Scotland. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Longford, I beg to move the Motion that stands in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That leave be given to the Lord Balfour of Inchrye to advance his Motion on civil aircraft from Wednesday next to Tuesday next.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. In doing so, I should like to thank your Lordships for the strong support and kind encouragement you have already given me with this Bill. It has the full support of both sides of the shipping industry, and the Board of Trade, and has had a quite smooth and unimpeded passage. The purpose of the Bill, as your Lordships know, is to extend the requirement to carry officers holding British certificates to all British foreign-going ships registered in the United Kingdom wherever and whenever they put to sea. It will help considerably to maintain the very high standard of ships flying the British Flag. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Popplewell.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (LOAD LINES) BILL
Read 3a, (according to Order), and passed.

COMMONWEALTH SETTLEMENT BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed; Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

CIVIC AMENITIES BILL
3.24 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the purpose of this Bill, as stated in its Title, is exactly stated, as is everything else in it. It is designed as a vehicle for the improvement of the physical environment of these Islands. As its sponsor, Mr. Duncan Sandys, has said, its aim is to preserve beauty, to create beauty, and to remove ugliness. I have said that the father of the Bill was Mr. Sandys. I should like to suggest that he has

1079
probably done as much as any other English politician of his day, with the possible exception of Lord Silkin, to improve the visual quality of our country. This Bill is undoubtedly the offspring of his rugged loins, and I am delighted to acknowledge its paternity.
But this Private Member's Bill has been lucky in possessing benevolent and generous godparents: the co-sponsors, from all Parties, in another place, and the Government, who have given it their blessing. May I say, incidentally, how glad I am that the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, has the Bill, as it were, in his Portfolio and will be replying to this Second Reading debate. We all know his positive and informed interest in matters of preservation. Also, I cannot let this moment pass without acknowledging the part which the Civic Trust—Mr. Sandys's own creation—and Members of another place have played in bringing the Bill to its present advanced and balanced state of health. We sometimes pat ourselves on the back in this House about our interest in amenity matters. Having noted the concentrated attention which Members of another place gave this Bill, I think perhaps we should be looking to our laurels.
Living as we do in these tight little Islands, we may at times feel that our choices are sometimes circumscribed in this era of super-powers and great impersonal forces. But one of the many things we can decide, and do, by ourselves is to preserve and enhance the beauty of our physical surroundings. We have inherited perhaps the loveliest manmade landscape in the world. Our cities and our towns, and perhaps above all our villages, have great quality and great variety. But this heritage is desperately fragile and vulnerable. It needs support and it needs reinforcement. I recognise, of course, that there is a limit to the reinforcement which a Private Member's Bill can bring. A great responsibility rests on Government and local authorities; and we await with interest the "eggs"—the Countryside Bill, for example—which the noble Lord and his other broody colleagues are, I understand, hatching. Meanwhile, I would modestly claim that this modest measure brings, in the three fields to which it is specifically addressed, substantial reinforcement to all those who are keen to do what they
1080
can to make our country a nicer place to look at and live in.
Apart from this, I would suggest that this Bill has three special merits. First, it is almost intelligible to even the most unintelligent of your Lordships. For my part, there is only one word in the whole Bill which I do not understand, that is, "excambion", which is the first word in line 12, page 5. Second—and this is perhaps the explanation—the Bill applies to Scotland, a very notable feat in itself. Third, it comes to your Lordships, I think I can claim, with the very wide agreement of the interests most affected by it.
Part I of the Bill deals with areas and buildings of historic or architectural interest—a matter of very great concern to my noble friend Lord Hailes, the Chairman of the Historic Buildings Council, who I am delighted to see will be speaking in this debate. I think he would agree that there are two big holes in our present system of preservation. The present arrangements are basically negative and defensive. The authorities are usually alerted only when someone is keen to pull down or "muck up" an historic building; and sometimes they are alerted too late. Moreover, the present system is designed only to protect individual buildings of historic or architectural merit. The composite value of groups of buildings, of areas, is neither safeguarded nor recognised.
We are, I think, behind some of our neighbours across the Channel in this respect. The Portuguese have done a great deal in this area. The Dutch brought in a Bill dealing with it in 1962 or 1963. In France, under the so-called Malraux Law of 1962, there are now special provisions for the preservation of particularly valuable areas—the so-called secteurs sativegardés of certain towns, areas which may indeed comprise the whole of an old town. I think I am right in saying that a thousand such areas may possibly be designated in France in due course. Some 50 already have been designated and there are about 15 pilot projects in hand in places like the Marais quarter of old Paris.
Meanwhile we have witnessed a steady erosion of some of our finest groups of buildings. Many of the London Squares went some time ago and have, of course, gone for good. More recently we have

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seen the cathedral setting of Worcester ravaged. We have seen, in a humbler setting, the destruction of almost all the charm of old Gosport—I mention these only as examples—and we have seen the destruction of the splendid warehouses along the river front at Boston. Much of this has been a failure, in part through lack of legislative backing, to recognise not only the value of individual buildings, but also the value of their general setting.
Clause 1 of the Bill is a start—rather more than a start, I would suggest—in this this direction. Under it local authorities will be required to designate conservation areas for those localities which are of special architecural or historic interest. Where such an area is designated it is a requirement not only for them to have regard to the preservation, but also to the enhancing of such an area; and this duty is laid fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the local authority. There is no vast and complicated panoply of procedures. The ministerial power of direction in subsection (2) of this clause is only designated, as I understand it, for cases in which local authorities conspicuously fail to act, or if they act without knowledge or sensitivity.
These areas could be big or they could be small; they could be part of a particular street, a terrace, or a series of squares. They could be a major area like Whitehall, or indeed a whole town. They could be a tiny cluster of country cottages; they could be a particularly lovely village green or its surrounds; they could be the area round a village church or, perhaps, an historic site like the Bloody Meadow, the site of the Battle of Tewkesbury. The important thing is to remember that it is the group value of the area that counts, and the point is that these special areas should receive very special treatment. The design of the new in such areas might well require especially tactful architectural treatment to lie down with the old. Particularly careful attention might be needed for such things as traffic signs, street lighting, bus stops and the like, and again such areas might well require special traffic arrangements.
So much for Clause Clauses 2 to 11 are important, but perhaps less so. Some increase the defensive protection for listed buildings. Thus under Clause
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2 the period of advance notice of an intention to demolish or alter a building on the statutory list is increased from the present inadequate period of two months to a period of six months, and the penalties for transgressing a building preservation order are drastically increased. A further defence is that under Clause 10 a local authority can bring a building preservation order into immediate effect without prior and time-consuming reference to Whitehall. Thus "crash" action can be taken when required to preserve an old and historic building.
Finally, under Clause 9 the residences of clergyman are brought within the purlieu of the planning Acts—and here I should like to reassure your Lordships. The Bill and its sponsors are not "gunning for" the Established Church: the Bill bites on all ecclesiastical residences of any denomination. It merely restores the position to what it was thought to be before 1964, when Church, in the person of the Rector of Bloomsbury, and Judiciary, in the person of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, put the cat amidst these ecclesiastical pigeons. This particular clause, I may say, has the agreement of the Church's Main Committee.
So much for the negative defences. The positive side of preservation is buttressed by Clauses 4 to 8. Under Clause 4 the noble Lord, Lord Hanes, will be able to turn his money over and to make loans as well as grants. Clause 5 relates to Scotland and is, at least for me, a little shrouded in Scots mist and excambion. I confess that. Clause 6 makes it possible for a local authority to step in and give essential first aid to an historic building in distress, and under Clause 7 the power of a local authority compulsorily to acquire historic buildings which are not being properly maintained by their owners is extended from the 1,000 or so buildings subject to building preservation orders, to the 102,000 that are on the statutory list. One final word on Part I. I am quite certain that if we in this country are going to make a real success of this sort of preservation we need, one way or another, to obtain a far higher degree of public involvement and far closer links between public and local authorities, and indeed White

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hall. This approach is, I think, reflected in Part I of the Bill.
Few living things—save, perhaps, some members of the other and fairer sex—can do more to enhance our physical surroundings than beautiful trees. Our ancestors, who knew quite a thing about trees—and also about girls—knew this very well. We need to guard that heritage of lovely woodland which they have handed down to us. We need, therefore, in the coming decades to plant many millions of new trees. That being so, I hope that the House will welcome Part II of this Bill.
Under Clause 12 a positive duty—I underline the word "duty"—will be laid on local planning authorities to see that, whenever this is desirable, adequate provision for the preservation of old trees and the planting of new trees is written into the planning permissions which they grant. Of course they must discharge this duty and exercise their discretion sensibly. Fine trees can humanise what might otherwise be a rather arid new estate. But in well-wooded areas more trees might well be an embarras de richesses. This is the positive heart of Part II of the Bill. If local authorities discharge their duty under it, as I am sure they will, Clause 12 may well make a major contribution in the future of our whole island scene. But Part II also strengthens the negative defences, in this case for trees, as Part I does for buildings. I do not propose to take your Lordships hand in hand through its various clauses. I should merely like to single out three of the more important trees in this particular wood.
Clause 13(1) is important. It means that, with certain exceptions, trees protected by a tree preservation order must be replaced if they are lost. Clause 16 provides for the same sort of "snap" protection for trees by the local authority as we are now hoping to provide for historic buildings. And Clause 15, with its significant increase in the level of fines, means that in future no-one should be able to defy a tree preservation order and reap a profit from his defiance.
Finally, my Lords, Part III—the provisions for the disposal of the waste products of our modern, mechanised society. The Litter Act 1958 dealt with the smaller
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droppings of that society: the tins and the toffee papers. Part III of this Bill goes after the bigger game: the mattresses, the prams, the bikes, the cookers, the fridges, the T.V. sets. Above all it goes for the bulkiest and most intractable droppings of all—the motor cars which are strewn around these islands having run their course.
There is a real and an urgent national problem here. In 1960 the estimated mortality among our car population was perhaps something over half a million. Automobile demography seems to be a rather inexact science at present. By 1970 the mortality rate may be as much as one and a half million a year. Unless we now take drastic corrective measures an awful lot of these one and a half million cars a year will not be properly dismantled and disposed of. They will just lie around our streets and highways and countryside as eyesores, as obstructions and, not least, as tempting and dangerous provocations to the curiosity of our youth. Clearly it is time we did something about this; and something pretty drastic.
Some local authorities have already taken useful initiatives—for example, Coventry and Portsmouth. The Greater London Council, I understand, are now hatching a big scheme. Whether it is the scrap metal market, the economies of scale, and indeed modern technology, all seem to point in one direction, and that is that the most sensible way for us to dispose of most of our dead cars in the future is not to abandon them in someone else's back garden, or to "flog" them to the gypsies, or to let someone break them up in his backyard on a small scale, but rather to organise the proper siting, and with it the screening, of collection points which would serve a number of strategically placed big disposal plants.
There are all sorts of such plants these days. There are crushers and pounders, shearers and smelters and pulverisers. One of the latest is a Japanese plant called "the barbecue fractional smelter." Another, a pulveriser, has such an omnivorous appetite for dead cars that it will eat 100,000 or so a year and serve them up for Lord Melchett and his steel-makers as fist-sized lumps of high quality steel. But to get all this going properly, to do away with the derelict cars which

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increasingly disfigure our island scene to-day, demands close and sensible cooperation between local authorities and between local authorities and industry. It also needs a proper framework of legislation.
This Part III of the Bill is designed to provide. The present permissive powers, mainly under the various Public Health Acts, are quite insufficient. The Bill offers a three-pronged solution. The first prong, Clause 18, imposes a duty on local authorities to provide public refuse dumps. The second prong, Clause 19, outlaws promiscuous dumping of motor cars—or anything else, for that matter. It also provides for heavy penalties. The third prong, Clauses 20, 21 and 22, requires local authorities to remove abandoned cars and to make arrangements for their disposal. Taken together, I believe these clauses should do the legislative trick, but doubtless your Lordships will wish to look closely at them. But to get this working, a strong lead from central Government and energetic and co-operative action on the part of local authorities is very necessary indeed.
As this Bill was leaving another place, one of its many well-wishers expressed the hope that your "civilised Lordships"—that was the phrase he used—would look on it with nothing but favour. In asking your Lordships to give this Bill, which is, I believe, a good Bill, a Second Reading, I should like to express the same hope. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
3.44 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I should like, first of all, to express my appreciation, and I am sure the appreciation of everyone else, to the initiator of this Bill in another place, Mr. Duncan Sandys and his Civic Trust. As the noble Earl has said, he has for many years past been immensely interested in this question of amenity and has done as much as anybody in this country to achieve it. I would also express my congratulations to the noble Earl on having the privilege of introducing this Bill in this House, and on the way in which he has done it. He said that the Bill was a simple Bill. Well, I think it is on the whole—not quite so simple as he made out; nevertheless
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it is a simple Bill. But his explanations have certainly made it much easier to understand than would otherwise be the case. I welcome the Bill immensely. It is a big step forward. The conception of the conservation area is a new one. It is an extension of an existing conception, and it is all to the good. There is little that one would need to say about the Bill. Most of the matters which one would like to comment on are really Committee points, and I hope it will get a very thorough Committee stage.
I should like to say one or two things about the Bill which strike me straight away. The first is that this is one more type of area of this country which we are proposing to designate. We are doing a great deal already in the way of designation of areas: we have designated areas as National Parks—a very substantial part of this country is already designated as National Parks. Very large areas are designated as green belt. We have areas of outstanding natural beauty. We have new areas of great scenic beauty. We have areas that are free from advertisement. And this is a new type of designation. While I have no criticism of this new conception, I think we ought to be clear as to where we are going; otherwise we may find the whole country designated in one way or another.
The noble Earl stressed the fact that this was a simple Bill, and I fully agree with him; but there is one provision, and it is a rather key provision, which I find far from clear. That is in Clause 1, which deals with the point of designating areas as conservation areas, and it says that the Minister may give such directions as he thinks necessary with respect to the exercise of the functions of local authorities under this provision. What kind of directions is certainly not clear, and what local authorities will be required to do about them is not mentioned at all in the Bill. Is the Minister to have complete discretion as to the kind of directions he is to give? I know the noble Earl set out a number of matters which local authorities would wish to have in mind in treating such conservation areas. They are not in the Bill, and one would like to be quite sure that local authorities would not be going outside their powers in dealing with a conservation area as they would like. It would be helpful if we could have a

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Schedule, or something of that kind, setting out the kind of matters on which the Minister could give directions and which local authorities would be required to have in mind. That is all I want to say on Part I, because, as I have said, it will be examined in Committee, and there are small points which I need not trouble the House about at this stage.
I should like to refer to the planting of trees. In another place there was some conception that we ought to be very rigid about the type of trees that should be permitted. I see that local authorities are to have regard to a number of factors, not necessarily the expense. After all, they are putting the owners to expense in requiring the planting of new trees. I think that expense ought to be a factor. Apart from that, the great beauty of this country is the immense variety of trees. I do not think there should be any pressure upon persons planting trees as to exactly the kind of trees which should be planted. There is an idea that they have to harmonise with existing trees. I do not take that view. I think that every tree is beautiful, and that every beautiful thing harmonises with every other beautiful thing, and there is no need for them to be of the same shape, size or colour, or anything else. Indeed, the beauty of our countryside lies in its variety. At the present time, you have only to look out to see the different shades of green and the different types of trees. I therefore hope that there will be great elasticity, and that local authorities will not be hidebound in telling owners as to what kinds of trees they are to plant.
There is one thing I want to say about Part III of the Bill. I fully agree that we must do something about abandoned cars. I have seen the dangers of leaving abandoned cars in the streets. In a thoroughfare in Battersea I noticed that for some days children were playing around with an abandoned car. Incidentally, I doubt whether at the end of the day there will be much of value left of the car. They were stripping it piece by piece, and eventually they set fire to the whole thing. Had it been possible to take earlier action, that would have been avoided. Fortunately, the fire was noticed in good time and nobody was injured, but it might have had disastrous consequences.
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I should like this Part of the Bill to be strengthened so that a local authority could act immediately they find that a car is abandoned, or when they have reason to think it is abandoned. I think the noble Earl was a little optimistic about the financial side of the matter. It will be an expense to local authorities. Do not let us run away with the idea that our mutual noble friend Lord Melchett is going to help them cut in this business. It is not going to be profitable to try to sell whatever is left of a car as scrap metal, and local authorities will be required to provide facilities for storing. That is going to be costly, especially in the cities where storage space is expensive. If we are to implement this provision seriously, local authorities must be under no delusion that they will get away with this cheaply. It will be an expense, but I think it will be worth it, and will add much to the amenity and beauty of the countryside.
I should like to discuss this point again in Committee, but I feel that perhaps an opportunity has been lost of carrying it much further. If one is considering what is really damaging the countryside over large areas it is the pit heaps and slag heaps, and all the rubbish that has been left for generations to lie by the roadside with nobody having any responsibility for dealing with it. I wish it were possible to deal with this problem at this stage and under this Bill. That would have a far greater effect even than dealing with abandoned motor cars, important as that may be. Whether it will be possible to deal with slag heaps and pit heaps in this Bill, I do not know. I wish it were. But, as I say. I hope that we shall consider it.
That is all I feel it necessary to say at this stage, except once more to say how delighted I am that this Bill has been introduced. I am sure that it will receive the unanimous support of this House, and I hope that, if possible, it will even be improved as we proceed.
3.55 p.m.
LORD HOLFORD: My Lords, I wish to support as warmly as possible this useful and timely Bill, and to add my congratulations to those of the noble Lord to Mr. Duncan Sandys, who produced it. I wish to do this quite briefly and, like the third man in the batting list, my

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innings is not going to be a long one. It deals mainly with Part I, with one comment on Part II. I do so not just as a Member of your Lordships' House but as one who has been consulted by successive Ministers under Section 32 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1962. That section requires the Minister, before he approves or amends the list of buildings of historic and architectural interest, to
"consult with such persons or bodies of persons as appear to him appropriate as having special knowledge of, or interest in."
buildings of this kind. I am one of those who have appeared to the Minister to be "appropriate", and I have been called into consultation over the past 22 years. I feel sure that my epitaph will be "Here lies an ad hoc body." I say this only to make it clear that my support of the Bill is grounded on a little experience as well as on conviction, and that the next step forward in this matter of linking preservation with new growth is, in my view, not only due, but overdue.
The link dates from the time when the idea of listing historic buildings was introduced, I believe I am right in saying, in a war-time Act in 1944, when the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, was Parliamentary Secretary to the new Ministry of Town and Country Planning. It was further developed in the Town and Country Planning Act 1947, when the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who has just spoken, was Minister of Town and Country Planning. It was he, I think, who appointed the first Advisory Committee on the listing of buildings, under the chairmanship of the late Sir Eric Maclagan. In my view, Part I of the Bill is the next step in the process which was started then. It is a process of identification, of protection, and now of creative action to preserve the character of towns. It moves from the individual building, the monument, the garden ornament, to an area of a town, a group of buildings, a place that has identity and feeling and character. I do not really think that that is a large step forward. I hope that Mr. Sandys would accept that. But I think it is a significant step forward.
Part I of the Bill requires the local planning authorities to identify the areas for conservation in their towns and villages. This is a process which might be described as compulsory recognition.
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Many local authorities are well ahead in this matter—they are almost as far ahead as public opinion. But many local authorities are not. They either are not aware of it, or have taken the view that it is no part of their responsibility to look after their past and future environments as being parts of the very same process of historical development. So it seems to me—and I speak now as somebody looking at the process over a long period of time—that identification is necessary and that Clause I does this.
Although the Bill recognises that this is fundamentally a local authority responsibility, it makes just sufficent provision for encouragement and advice from the centre to launch it, as in fact it should be launched, as a national responsibility, as something which we owe to those who come after us—in fact, in specific terms, to the 70 million or so people who will be inhabiting these small Islands by the end of the century. The point which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is valid in this respect, and I hope it will be taken in Committee: that is to say, the point as to what kind of directions should come from the Minister. I have no doubt at all that in the initial stages some instructions must be given from the centre, particularly to those authorities which are not aware of the richness of the heritage which has come down to them.
To put it in brief terms, the pictures and the furniture in a house are the owner's affair; but the picture of the house in its setting, particularly when it has subsisted for a very long time, is now the country's affair. Therefore, it is essential that there should be some kind of national standard of preservation if this country is to remain in the forefront of civilised action in this matter. It is also necessary that we should not just have a kaleidoscope of interesting, individual buildings dotted about. In the work upon which we have been advising in relation to the listing and preservation of buildings since 1945, it has become more and more apparent that buildings depend to an enormous extent on their setting. It is not only the setting of a country house; it is the setting of the ' extremely interesting building which is in a terrace of houses in a town, in a street, or in a public place. It is not only the forecourt, the trees and the approach to

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the building which are of primary importance; it is also what other new buildings are built right next to it.
The Bill goes on to require local authorities to have regard to the desirability of preserving or enhancing the character and appearance of these areas, and draws their attention to the powers contained in the Local Authorities (Historic Buildings) Act and in the Planning Acts. Mild and permissive though these duties are, as at present drafted, they bring preservation clearly into the mainstream of town planning and development. In other words, it is taking it from the sphere of an academic or antiquarian exercise into perspective with what is there now and with what is going to be built there, planned there and planted there for the future.
When one brings preservation into the planning field, one surrounds it with a great number of difficulties, and the greatest of these is economic. It is always more expensive per square foot to restore old buildings than to build new ones. That is to say, the actual craftsmanship, the work to be done, the survey of the buildings themselves, and all the operations connected with the preservation of buildings is not a cheap matter; it cannot be mass-produced. It should deal with every case on its merits and is therefore costly and will become more costly as building becomes industrialised. Therefore it seems to me that in relation to buildings as well as to trees and to other things—even to the disposal of old cars to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has referred—it is not going to be a cheap affair.
It is very important that local authorities should take their responsibilities under the 1962 Act very seriously and should be encouraged by the Minister to identify, and then to preserve, the character of these special areas. This is a big problem. One hopes that any instructions from the Minister will be mingled with a certain amount of more direct encouragement, either by way of grant or by increasing the grant which is operated by the Minister of Public Building and Works on the advice of the Historic Buildings Council, or even by way of certain relaxations in the requirements for new buildings in the area of old ones which, if one sticks to the letter of the
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law, will sometimes be out of scale and not in harmony with the old buildings with which they form part of the setting.
I will not talk about the penalties in the Bill, except to make one observation which was drawn to my attention before I came to the House to-day. The penalty on summary conviction in regard to historic buildings is £100, but in the case of a tree it is £250. I realise that only God can make a tree, but there seems to be some disparity in these figures. I think that probably the answer is that there is no limit—and this is a very interesting provision in the Bill—to the fine that can be imposed in a court upon the man who makes £50,000 out of a development deal and who cheerfully pays at the moment a fine of £100, which is simply written off as being part of the cost of redevelopment. Therefore, to make the punishment fit the crime in this case seems to me to be an extremely ingenious and worthwhile provision.
The last point I wish to make is perhaps an architectural one. It is that in our new environment of modern buildings the importance of trees is even greater than it was. We are often accused of putting up faceless slabs, but when one comes to examine the function of a modern building, whether it be a block of flats, an office building, or the headquarters of a local authority, a public building, one finds that between 60 and 70 per cent. of the value and interest of that building is internal. All sorts of comforts and conveniences and other things are included of which builders of our historic monuments knew nothing. Where those builders were able to provide flying buttresses, indentations and external sculpture, and many other features which produce the light, shade and composition of buildings such as abbeys, the modern architect contains his within a package. That package has to be as clean, as sheer and as smooth as he can possibly make it.
While a number of modern buildings, particularly the very high ones, provide the space in which trees can he planted, they also provide, by reason of the good deal of glass which is normally associated with them, the reflective background which doubles the value of a tree planted reasonably close to it. Taking any layout in a city, if it does not ensure that every

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habitable room has a view of a tree or of some piece of green—which is an essential quality for those who do not possess it—and if it does not allow any views of Nature of any description, the layout should be so amended as to provide it. Therefore, I should like as an architect to say how very much I welcome the importance which is laid in Part II of the Bill on the planting of trees, and on the substitution of new trees for old when they reach the end of their useful life.
To sum up my feeling on this Bill, it is that up till now the balance has been a little too much in favour of demolition and a cleared area. It is always nice (as an architect I know this) to have a cleared area on which you can start from scratch and do more or less what you want. But most schemes which are prepared on a tabula rasa are less interesting than those which take into account, in composing the new layout or design, the sense of the place, the existence of historic buildings near it, and even the physical remains of some of them. I am reinforced in this view by the fact that most modern architects who have progressive ideas about buildings are the very people most sympathetic to the preservation of the really interesting examples of old buildings.
Therefore it is time—and this Bill helps to do this—to redress the balance a little in favour of retaining what is interesting among the old. I am not one of those who are interested only in preservation and fear that we can never replace an old building with anything equally interesting. If I were, I would stop being an architect to-morrow. Nevertheless, I feel that there is often a lesson to be learned, there is often a sense of scale, and there is often an opportunity, in retaining the historic buildings in the centre of an old town, to make anything which we add of our own century doubly valuable. I hope that your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
4.13 p.m.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I so agree with the noble Lord, Lord Holford, about having a pleasant view of green out of your window. I feel it so strongly that I feel that I should like to move an Amendment on Committee stage to the effect that whereas there is a £100 fine
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for knocking down a building, and a £200 fine for cutting down a tree, there should be a £500 fine for pollarding trees in front of windows, which makes them look peculiarly revolting.
We on these Benches heartily welcome this Bill. I think that very nearly everything which can he said about it has already been said. We have had three very interesting speeches this afternoon, and the Bill had a great going-over in another place, so I do not think I have much more to say. I welcome it particularly as a portent of the sort of things which are to come. It is a portent of the fact that we are moving into the field of Government action those activities which in the past have always been undertaken by private societies or individuals. We are now coming round more and more towards the view that the Government must take action along this line, and in this repect it is interesting that this Bill is a Private Member's Bill.
I think it is a very good Bill so far as it goes. This is not a complaint, because it goes just about as far as a Bill of this sort ought to go. This is not a suggestion that the Bill is going too far, because it is of just the degree at which Bills of this sort should aim, and I hope very much that the Government will bring in more Bills of this character. We are waiting for a Countryside Bill, which will no doubt be a very comprehensive measure, embracing all sorts of different aspects—the sort of things about which we are talking to-day. But so far as matters of this sort are concerned, what have come to be called "quality of life issues"—I rather dislike that expression, but it describes what I mean—we do not necessarily have to wait for a comprehensive Bill. There is no reason why certain specific issues should not be dealt with from time to time as they arise—piecemeal, if you like—by the Government's introducing small Bills of the same nature as this Bill. I do not mean that the issues are small; I mean only that they are perhaps narrow. This is what the Government should aim at in introducing legislation to cover matters of this sort. Later on one can bring together all the various small Bills and put them into consolidating legislation.
This Bill deals with three issues—buildings, trees and the abandoning of it is right that there should be in the last

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these matters are now touched by the law at some point or other, but either the law is ineffective, possibly because of the complexity of the subject, or there is so much breaking of it that it is too expensive and too difficult to cope with the problem. There are whole areas of our lives which are also touched by the law, and whole areas of quality of life issues, but to some extent ineffectively, where we must do something more, and I welcome this Bill as a beginning in this direction.
The Bill does not touch, nor is it meant to touch, problems like pollution, noise or the proliferation of advertisements. All of these are aspects of the quality of life which, as I say, are touched by the law but which somehow or other we have not got round to dealing with effectively. In the past it was always felt that the law could not touch a great many of these things effectively, and that therefore they were best left outside legislation. I do not accept this view. The more I look at life—and in a way this is coming away from the old Liberal doctrines—the more it seems that we live in an age, not when we have too much legislation, but when we do not have enough. Certainly I feel this so far as the amenity side of our life is concerned.
It is no good leaving it to education, to better feeling and to good will to find a solution. We have to deal with things of this sort by legislation, and only by legislation. I admit that when one has legislation in regard to civic amenity aspects, one relies on bodies like local planning authorities to implement it. Many local planning authorities—and, after all they are manned by people like us—are very feeble. They are not as good as they should be. They often rely on advice from experts and professionals which is not as good as it should be. Nevertheless, in the last resort it is we who administer the law which we feel is necessary to preserve our amenities.
There is one small part of the Bill on which I want to comment and to which I would draw attention. That is the question of the cost of the quality of life issue. There is a cost to be met. I sometimes think that we assess it wrongly. It is entirely a matter of opinion, but I felt that we assessed it wrongly in the case of
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the Tees Valley Authority; and I suspect that we may have assessed it wrongly in the case of Ullswater. Here, there was an amenity to be saved; there was a quality of life which it would have cost the community a certain amount of money to maintain. I think the community, in the last resort—again, this was through the advice we gave them—felt that the cost of preserving these amenities was too high. I do not take that view. I think we could have maintained those amenities at a cost, on the end product, which was not unduly high. Nevertheless, we did not take that view.
There is a slight danger with regard to some of the ideas this Bill puts forward, in that the community is suggesting that no small part of the cost of preserving these amenities should be borne, not by the community but by the individual. In the case of the great territorial magnate this is so small an issue that it does not very much matter; he has probably been doing this all along; but where the small owner-occupier is concerned this is far from the case. There are certain difficulties; and I do not minimise these. I know that there are cases where men deliberately pull down buildings to make their land worth more for development, and such cases can be dealt with. But there are a thousand and one smaller ones. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, mentioned battle sites. Here is another. If a farmer may not destroy a battle site—and I entirely agree that he should not be allowed to do so—then somehow or other we must see that the cost of preserving that is borne by us and not by the individual.
The same applies, to a lesser extent, in the case of trees. It certainly applies in the case of buildings, and it applies in other directions as well. We have the National Parks where the farmer on one side has to use rather expensive materials for roofing his buildings, whereas one on the other side can put up any old stuff. I entirely agree that he should not be allowed to put up any old stuff anyway; but if, for the benefit of the community, he must spend a good deal more than he would otherwise have done to preserve those amenities, we must see to it that the extra cost is made good.
I put this forward only as a caveat; one must not make too much of it. Indeed, a few moments ago the noble Lord,

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Lord Kennet, reminded me of the fact that it sometimes works very much to the disadvantage of the community that we see cases of local authorities—rather ridiculous cases, really—who, when they acquire a building which might otherwise have been developed, have to pay compensation for their refusal to allow the development. I agree that there is an element of internal payments here; that it is one Government Department paying for what another Government Department is doing. Nevertheless, this is a point on which I am quite sure the noble Lord, when he comes to wind up, will air his own views. What is bad about it is not so much one quasi-Government Department, as it were, paying into another Government Department: it is that it discourages local authorities from doing what they ought to be doing, and one feels that on the whole local authorities need encouragement to do more, rather than discouragement.
Again on this point I would make certain reservations. I sometimes think that we schedule rather too many buildings. In the North of England, where every other building is a castle or a peel-tower, virtually every one is scheduled. This is reducing the situation to a farce. It seems to me that in this respect we might with advantage look at the French experience, and schedule perhaps rather fewer items—but making quite sure we maintain those that we do schedule. These are details, my Lords, and they are outside the Bill.
I welcome the Bill chiefly as a measure of the way we are thinking on these matters; as an indication that we are becoming more aware of the needs and of what can be done. I also welcome it because I think there is implicit in the Bill—though it is not actually expressed—a feeling that there is no conflict between preservation and proper development. There is the feeling that when it refers to preservation it refers to it in such a way that it means what we understand by conservation; that is to say, the best use of all these things, whether old or whether the best modern development we can devise. So, my Lords, I welcome the Bill, not only for itself but for what it foreshadows
4.26 p.m.
LORD HAILES: My Lords, I should like to add my congratulations to all those responsible for this excellent Bill, which is the result of the close cooperation of Mr. Sandys, who deserves special congratulations, the Civic Trust and the Government. I wish to speak only very briefly, as several noble Lords who know more about these matters than I do wish to speak, and others have already spoken. But I felt I must say a few words, principally from my experience, such as it is, with the Historic Buildings Council for England, of which I have the honour to be Chairman, for the Bill touches upon the work of that Council at so many points.
We in this country have been very slow in waking up to our responsibilities in the matters with which this Bill is concerned. Extraordinary though it may seem, I think I am right in saying that, although for many years voluntary societies—the National Trust, and so on—have done much in forming public opinion and in other ways, apart from that concerning ancient monuments there was no legislation until after the last war, when we had the Town and Country Planning Acts, to which the noble Lord, Lord Holford, has referred, and which provide, among other things, for the making of preservation orders and listing of buildings.
Then in 1953 there was passed the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, which made it possible for the first time for grants of public money to be made to owners of buildings of outstanding architectural or historical value. This is not the occasion to speak of this legislation at any length, except to say that but for it, owing to the decay, the neglect and often near-despair of the post-war years, the face of Britain as regards its architectural historical heritage would have now been a very different and very tragic one. Had that been the case, there would have been less material for this Bill to deal with.
However, there is still much that is piecemeal and incomplete in this whole field. I am sure that this Bill, which I hope will be law very soon, will do a great deal to pull things together and give new form and meaning to the whole concept. I am glad to say, incidentally, that one bit of piecemeal by which the listing of buildings was under one Minister,

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and the wherewithal, such as it is, of preservation was under another, have recently been combined under one Minister—the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
This Bill is far from being primarily a Bill of pains and penalties, but it is the fact that in former annual reports the Historic Buildings Council for England drew attention to abuses, to which the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has referred, such as the demolition of worthy buildings in anticipation of a preservation order or the occasional—I am thankful to say only occasional—calculated destruction of a listed building in defiance of the law and in face of a wholly inadequate penalty, and so on. I think that in this Bill the new safeguards, the new powers, and the much more alarming penalties—which I understand under Clause 2(3)(2) can be swingeing—should prove much more effective; and if they do not, I presume there could always be an amending Bill by which the penalties could be made greater.
I suppose that the most important provision of the Bill is in Clause 1 for which, for the first time, statutory provision is made for the preservation of whole areas—"conservation areas"—of architectural or historic interest, as distinct from the preservation of individual buildings of special architectural and historic importance. It is to be the duty of the local planning authority to designate these areas and to have always in mind their duty to preserve and enhance them. Although the Historic Buildings Council was essentially designed to care for individual buildings, as time has gone on—and the noble Lord, Lord Holford, referred to this—we have become more and more conscious of their surroundings. While we could recommend help for a fine house we could do nothing to avert the danger of unworthy neighbours. When in 1960 the Historic Buildings Council extended its activities to what we call O.G.V., "outstanding group value", that is to say, giving grants to groups of houses that individually did not come up to the mark, we had no power to prevent unsightly development near them, often cheek by jowl, thus spoiling the whole.
I take it that when this Bill becomes an Act the responsibilities of the Historic
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Buildings Council will become involved in some way in the system of conservation areas. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, if he is ready to do so, will say something about that when he speaks. Possibly it will work in with a further extension of the present work of the Historic Buildings Councils in their towns schemes which could become absorbed in the wider conception of this Bill. But if it is to be a case of "wider still and wider" for the Historic Buildings Councils—and we should certainly welcome that—it will have to be financed. I am tempted to pursue this and to quote figures; but I do not think it would be the appropriate occasion and I do not think it would be fair to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, who is so devoted to and active in the cause we are talking about to-day; and I know he fully appreciates the problem. But if one sees what is spent annually on the Arts in general, the amount that comes to the Historic Buildings Council—although one must not look a gift horse in the mouth—is almost derisory.
Perhaps however the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, could say something about Clause 4, which deals with the making of loans as well as giving grants to houses. I am not quite sure how finance will come in there; although I have a shrewd suspicion. But we welcome this proposal in principle, because it will give the Historic Buildings Council more room for manœuvre. However, I think the general theme of the Bill, which is the most important thing of all, is that although, as I understand it, the Minister will have certain responsibilities and reserve powers, the obligations and duties contained in all three Parts of the Bill are placed fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the local authorities. I am sure that is the right way to do it. Any attempt at coercion might engender resistance and the objects of the Bill would be defeated.
Everyone knows that local authorities have much important work to do apart from that in the field of conservation and preservation. I hope I shall not give offence when I say that in this particular field their record has been unequal: some have made full use of the Local Authorities (Historic Buildings) Act 1962—also, I think, the result of a Private Member's initiative—and some have not.

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But this Bill, which—and here I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe—I do not suppose for a moment will be the last Bill of its kind, has such far-reaching powers to preserve our national heritage of architecture, history and beauty which is second to none, to any country that in due course I trust there will be, perhaps with the willing help of local civic and amenity societies, a real drive by local authorities to get the very best out of the opportunities which this Bill provides.
4.36 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I like this Bill. I think the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has rendered a valuable public service in bringing it before this House. I must confess that I was rather fascinated at one stage of his speech when he started to embark upon a comparison between beautiful trees and beautiful girls. Unfortunately, he did not carry it through to the conclusion; nor shall I. In fact, in view of my age I am probably not qualified to do so. But I love beautiful trees. That is one of the particular reasons why I welcome this Bill. Probably I love trees because my grandfather was a village blacksmith with a real spreading chestnut tree outside the smithy door. Sixty years ago, I spent many hours watching the sparks fly.
I move very much in local government circles and everywhere I find a warm welcome for this Bill. I have been for over twenty years a county alderman, a chairman of a county council, and so on. That may make me something of a civic amenity in myself. If so, I hope I shall be preserved. This Bill, unlike so many other Bills affecting local government that come before this House, is not going to arouse any fiery political controversy. It has no great revolutionary changes; it merely does a few useful jobs. Because of that I think it will be welcomed by all public-spirited citizens as a whole.
I do not think there is any easy way of singling out one particular part of the Bill as being more important than the others. There is no obvious point at which to start the examination, so I will return to the old-fashioned system of starting at the beginning. Clause 1 improves the law with regard to the preservation of historic and architecturally beautiful buildings. That in itself is a very worthy object. But, as other noble Lords have said,
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Clause 1 goes much beyond that. It enables us to designate what are called conservation areas so we shall not merely preserve historic buildings, but preserve them in their own historic frame.
In the past preservation orders have too often been made on historic buildings, only for those buildings to be damaged by excessive traffic, which is growing in volume every year, or to have the whole picture of the scene ruined by some modern shop or housing development that has been allowed alongside or in the near vicinity. In Essex we have tried to use our normal planning powers to prevent that happening. We have not necessarily preserved beauty spots and beautiful buildings as isolated museums, but have tried to ensure that they were preserved in a proper setting. We have made some fifty orders in recent years, mainly in beautiful little towns like Thaxted, Saffron Walden, Coggeshall and Witham. In the course of our ordinary planning procedure we are trying to create conditions favourable to the preservation of these old houses of quality. This Bill will be a real encouragement to those local authorities which have souls as well as public bodies.
My Lords, it can be done, and the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, mentioned towns in France and in some other countries. I have often been impressed, when travelling around Germany, by the way one is sometimes able to turn off from a main arterial street in a city into some little backwater where a little mediæval square of buildings has been preserved. There are many of our towns in which we could do the same thing, and the provision in Part I of the Bill will make it easier for us to do so than has been the case in the past; although, as I say, there are some local authorities who have made use of their ordinary planning permissions in order to bring about that state of affairs.
These preservation orders are usually well worth making. I remember a mansion in my county, part Tudor, which was bought by two men who were determined to demolish it. We, as a county council, bought it and made a preservation order. We did not keep it idle as a medieval museum, but sold it to a charitable organisation which I think concerns itself with the care of what are called distressed gentlefolk. This organisation carried out

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essential repairs and they are now able to rent homes to a number of families who live in very gracious surroundings. It would have been a shame to demolish that mansion, which stood in the midst of a beautiful park. It was owned, back in the days of Henry VIII, by Lord Rich, one of his Chancellors. The first Queen Elizabeth slept there; of course she slept in a good many places, because she used to get around. It was also the seat of the Court of one of the dethroned monarchs of Europe who found refuge in this country, and I think that we did well in saving this building from the hammer of the demolition workers.
My Lords, Part II of the Bill will give extra powers to local authorities to ensure that their districts are not denuded of beautiful trees. In Essex we have been very ferocious in the action that we have taken against people who threaten to indulge in that kind of activity. We have been able to do so because many years ago we promoted a Private Act of Parliament which, among other things, gave us power to act in this way. We have also carried out a lot of tree planting. There is a yearly item in the county budget for tree planting, and now that the transplanting of mature trees has reached a stage which I think I can say is of technical perfection, I hope that we shall be able to do still more in the future than we have in the past. This Bill will give encouragement to those councils which need it. We have one body in my county which hardly needs any encouragement, the Basildon New Town Development Corporation, which has planted nearly half a million trees since it was established about fifteen years ago.
I hope that in those parts of the Bill dealing with trees we shall not have the legislation drawn so tightly as to make the owners of old elm trees and trees of that kind afraid to have them lopped or topped in the interests of safety. I remember that at the old rectory where I lived for twenty years we had a majestic ring of elm trees round one side of the house. It was not until I called in an expert that I discovered the state of permanent danger in which we were living, so I hope that no owner of elm trees will find himself prosecuted or persecuted under this legislation if he
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takes the steps which he thinks are in the interests of public safety.
Now to Part III, my Lords, where we move from the ancient to the modern. This Part of the Bill gives local authorities powers and also calls upon them to perform certain duties with regard to cars abandoned on the roadside. This legislation is certainly overdue. The other day I saw twenty abandoned cars along twenty miles of an arterial road. But I hope that there will be some safeguard provided here as well. There are motorists (and I speak particularly as one who for forty years worked on newspapers and used to drive home in the early hours of the morning) who experience occasions when they have to abandon their cars by the roadside because of foggy conditions, or because of the icy state of the road—and we all know of the legendary case of the young man driving a girl home who suddenly runs out of petrol along an isolated stretch of road. I think there must be safeguards for motorists who are genuinely compelled to jettison their cars for a night or two.
I am not particularly happy about the clause which calls on local authorities to create dumps where householders may throw their refuse. I think that public health considerations have here to be borne in mind, especially if people are to be encouraged, or permitted, to dump verminous old mattresses or perishable food, or tins which have contained food. We do not want this Bill ultimately to become an Act for the Encouragement of Bugs and Rats in Public Places, but that is what may easily happen.
I know as well as anybody the enormous amount of illicit dumping that goes on. My present house stands on the verge of Epping Forest, and every Sunday morning when I go for a walk I see enough old petrol cans, lavatory bowls, mattresses, old chairs and baked bean tins to enable me to set up half-a-dozen stalls in the Caledonian Market. I am not convinced that official council dumps for this kind of refuse would be the right way to tackle the problem. I would rather see the authorities permitted to make a charge for moving refuse of this kind from people's back yards.

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My noble friend Lord Silkin expressed some slight apprehension about the extent to which, in one case after another, we were designating certain areas of land, and he feared that the day might come when the whole of our countryside might be so designated. Well, my Lords, under our town development maps and town and country planning maps the land is virtually all designated now, and so I should not allow that to frighten me. All these are matters of detail which I think may be usefully considered in Committee.
There is, finally, the question of money which I had intended to raise earlier in my remarks, but which has been dealt with by a number of noble Lords. This legislation will put an extra financial burden on local councils, and therefore upon their ratepayers. Noble Lords will understand the psychology of local councillors. Council elections come round each year, and they do not like having to go to the electors to apologise for having to put up the rates; and everything that tends to put up the rates, even though in itself it may be a relatively small item, is something which councillors will not be too keen on doing. So I sincerely hope that there will be some form of assistance from the national Exchequer to enable local authorities to interpret this legislation really enthusiastically without the fear of repercussions for financial reasons which might follow any action they take. The Bill as a whole aims at making Britain a prettier place. Anything that is pretty should be welcomed, and it usually is. So I enthusiastically support the Bill, and I hope that it will have a fast passage to the Statute Book.
4.48 p.m.
LORD STRANG: My Lords, I wish to give a warm welcome to this Bill. As the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, explained in his admirable exposition, it does three things in three separate spheres, all of which badly needed doing. In all these ways, and as the noble Earl has said they are positive ways, the Bill should do something to improve the aspect of our towns and countryside to help to save them in some measure from the desecration which never ceases to menace them. As the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe said, perhaps over-modestly, it is a modest Bill;
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but it is an extremely useful one. The initiation of the Bill owes much to the vision and energy of the Civic Trust, and it is fitting that it should have been sponsored in another place by the founder of the Civic Trust, Mr. Duncan Sandys.
There are three preliminary points about the Bill which are perhaps worth making. First, it has been wholeheartedly commended by the Government. Secondly, in the course of the proceedings in another place the Bill was largely redrafted, with the help of Parliamentary draftsmen. The result is that it comes to your Lordships' House in extremely good shape and should not require very lengthy consideration. Thirdly, during the debate in another place the Bill was equally warmly welcomed on both sides of the House. In many places the Bill lays duties on local authorities; in other places it confers powers on local authorities, and in, I think, two places it gives the Minister power to give directions to local authorities or to make orders in default of action by local authorities.
The proper relationship between Whitehall and local authorities in regard to action by the latter in the kind of field covered by the Bill will always be a matter of debate. The conception which seems to be implicit in the present Bill is that it is best to rely to the largest possible extent upon the willing co-operation of local authorities and not to provide, beyond necessary, measure for direction or order from Whitehall. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hailes. I have sympathy for this view, but the fact remains that local authorities vary widely in their efficiency and in their willingness to act. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, has just blown the trumpet for Essex, and probably rightly so. It is fair to say that financial considerations will have a bearing on this in the eyes of some local authorities, and the noble Lord. Lord Leatherland, rightly drew attention to this.
From this point of view, Clause 1 of the Bill now before us is of some interest. In subsection (1) a specific duty is laid upon local planning authorities—namely, the duty of determining and designating areas of special architectural or historic interest. In this particular case, this provision is backed up by subsection (2), by which the Minister is given the power to give local planning authorities, after

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consultation with them, such direction as he thinks necessary with respect to their fulfilment of the duty thus laid upon them. This, I think, is the only place in the Bill where such a power of direction is provided, and in this place I think it is rightly provided.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked, "What kind of direction?", and I think that at some stage in our proceedings we should like to know a little more about what is intended by these words. Once an area has been designated under this clause, what then has the local planning authority to do about it? The answer will be found in subsection (5). One would think that the duty of local planning authorities here is somewhat too vaguely expressed. What the local planning authority has to do, if I may quote the words of the clause, is to have regard to the
"… desirability of preserving or enhancing the character or appearance of the designated area …"
in the exercise of its powers under the Historic Buildings or Planning Acts. "To have regard to the desirability" are vague words which place no specific duty upon the local authority, and one may wonder whether this goes far enough and whether it might not be possible to place upon the local authority a definite responsibility to preserve and enhance. But perhaps as a matter of practical politics the existing text is as far as one can go.
In one other place in the Bill there is provision for a default power in the Minister. That is to be found in Part III, which deals with the removal and disposal of abandoned vehicles and other refuse. In this part of the Bill the various duties laid upon the local authorities are defined in specific terms, and they are very extensive. They include the provision of refuse dumps and the removal of abandoned vehicles. Here the local authorities are not left entirely to themselves. If they fail to carry out their duties in this respect their failure may be inquired into by the Minister, and if he is satisfied, after holding a local inquiry, that there has been such failure, then he may, by order, require the authority to carry out the duty in such manner as he may prescribe. It seems to me to be right that where duties are so specific in a practical sense as they are in this part
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of the Bill, and where they may be tiresome and somewhat difficult to perform, it is right that there should be in the last resort this default power in the hands of the Minister.
With these few words, I repeat the hope that the House will give this Bill a Second Reading.
4.55 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN: My Lords, I wish to say how much I welcome the new provisions in Part I of the Bill. It is now twenty years since the passing of the Town and Country Planning Act 1947, and I think it will probably be agreed that the area where it has been least effective is in the preservation of the centres of our towns and cities. A survey made by the Civic Trust at the beginning of this year gives the illustration of one town of 70,000 people where there were 130 houses listed as being of architectural or historic interest. There are now only 25, or perhaps 30, of them left. That is the measure of the erosion which has gone on, even with the operation of the Town and Country Planning Acts. Therefore the need for such a measure as this seems to me to be without possibility of contradiction.
The moving of the emphasis from the individual building which must have either historic or architectural interest to the area is of immense significance. I think that if we are going to persuade the local authorities—and it has already been said how they vary in their quality and sensitiveness on this matter—to act in this matter, we must be able to give good reasons to the property owner or developer why we regard it as important that in any particular area certain groups of buildings should be preserved and individual property rights should be limited or overruled.
I believe that the social and organic life of a community is a living thing. A community is not just a collection of individuals. It has an organic life. This is something which is not artificial and cannot be taken for granted. As we know from building our new towns, it is something which is laboriously built up generation after generation. This organic life needs to have co-ordinated planning. Every great civilisation bears witness to this fact. But there is a further point. I believe that in the old-established

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communities we must preserve visual reminders of the long continuity of community life in that place, reminders of the cultural and spiritual traditions out of which the community has come and by which unconsciously so often community actions are modified. To destroy wantonly, without any deliberate plan for replacement, the old centres of our towns and villages often destroys this sense of continuity and tradition, which at the present time the community desperately needs as a kind of spring-board for its outward-looking action.
At one time, before I went to America, I was very critical of the movement of works of art and buildings from Europe to America. Having been to America, I am entirely converted. I believe it to be absolutely right that the American people should have visible signs—they are almost sacraments—of the great cultural European tradition out of which they come. Although, for example, a thing like the Cloisters in New York may sound absurd, if you go there and see it you recognise that it is a creative achievement to which millions of Americans go, and I believe something in them is stirred as to their heritage and tradition. This is something that I think has to continue and has to be safeguarded.
In almost every town and village of this land there is a nucleus of old buildings, usually associated with the parish church, and this nucleus of buildings is the visible expression of the experience of community life over the centuries. Certain buildings in the group can be safeguarded. I think it is not unfair to say that in this respect the members of the Church of England, with many well-wishers, have preserved this astonishing heritage of the parish churches of this country at the most enormous cost. In the county of Lincolnshire there are no fewer than 700 buildings, many of them with tiny communities around them. Nevertheless, these buildings have been preserved. And there may be the odd building of architectural interest. But at present there is nothing to prevent what happens again and again. First of all, an old building, not of great architectural merit but part of the group, falls into decay. Often in a village it reaches a stage when it is just cleared, and all that remains is tumbledown brick
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work and nettles, and the thing becomes a sort of scar, a sore in the heart of the village.
Secondly (and this has happened as a result of the Town and Country Planning Act), because of the difficulty of getting planning permission for a new house, very often a house—again of no great architectural merit, apart from the group—will be sold; it will have to be pulled down, and in place of it a new house will be built. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But what so often happens is that the building is built without any sensitivity to the environment. The owner has seen some particular model at some building exhibition, and thinks how pretty it will look. I do not think we want just prettiness in our villages; we want something better than that. Thirdly, there is the building which is bought by a developer. Here, again, much depends on the planning authority, but so often the building which is put up is designed, possibly here in London, without any sensitivity to the neighbourhood and in no way relates to it.
I want to make it clear that I am not a preservationist, as such. I should hate the idea of kind of "olde worlde" ghettoes surviving in the heart. This would be terrible. I think there is a proper place for development, even in the centre as a living thing. But what I believe to be important is that there ought to be a burden on the developer to prove to the local authority that what he is going to do is sensitive to the neighbourhood in which he is developing, and not something which is imposed upon it irresponsibly.
Again, this does not mean the preservation of particular styles. There is a very good illustration in Coventry. If you go to the North-West corner of Coventry Cathedral you will find a 17th century half-timbered building; immediately adjoining that you find an 18th century building, and near to that there is this modern building. There is perfect harmony; they all seem to be sensitive to each other. Or there is the example of King's College, Cambridge, with the Chapel and Gibb's Building side by side. It is more subtle than just trying to build in old style. I am reminded of the words of the new President of the Royal Academy, Mr. Monnington, who said:
"All the best work is traditional."

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But he added:
"It is often not until the next generation that you see how the tradition has been continued."
I do not think we want to discount the possibility of continuing a tradition within this central area, but it has to be something which goes beyond the immediate interests of the individual or the particular developer.
I want to say here that we owe an enormous amount—and it is part of our English way of doing things—to the whole idea of the Civic Trust, the body of people concerned and interested, who quite spontaneously come together and exercise a particular interest for a neighbourhood. We have many illustrations of the way in which this has effectively safeguarded and salved particular places. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, has spoken of the work in Essex, and the development of the Thaxted Society, with the co-operation of the county council, of the survey which has fairly recently been done by David Insell and associates. I think this a glorious illustration of how voluntary association and interest, co-operating with the local authority, can have a tremendous effect on these very things.
This we must encourage, because the Act itself, if it is to be implemented effectively, still requires people of sensitivity, understanding—it is difficult to describe the exact qualities which are needed. It is unlikely, humanly speaking, that one can be sure of finding these, even in the county planning office. One would hope to find groups of people who will sometimes have to act as a gadfly. This is a good thing for the Civic Trust to be. Many horrors would have been perpetrated but for the gadfly playing that particular part, determined to see that the legal planning authority exercises all the expertise that is possible and that of opportunism and insensitivity are challenged. I believe we can hope that as a result of this Bill many areas, without being restricted to being some kind of museum piece, will be preserved. And the reason for this is that we may have these visible signs of continuity of the great heritage and tradition out of which we come.
5.09 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I, too, should like to convey my thanks to
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the noble Earl for introducing this Bill to-day. When he told me about it the other day I said I hoped that I should be able to get here before the debate finished—at that time he seemed to think that there would be only two or three speakers—and that I should not have to leave before I had been able to help him. I mention this last point because I have an engagement later which may require me to leave before the end of the discussion, and if that should happen I hope your Lordships will forgive me.
I agree with, I think, almost every speaker this afternoon that this Bill, so far as it goes, is a good Bill. In some respects it does not go as far as many of us would like, and as Lord Strang particularly emphasised, it is very vague in some particularly important parts. I hope it will be possible to tighten it up a little in the Committee stage, and that the noble Earl will not say that that is very dangerous because it may mean that we shall lose it if we attempt to do so.
I would also pay my tribute to Mr. Duncan Sandys and the Civic Trust, which he has played such an important part in building up and which has done a tremendous amount for urban civilisation in this country over the last few years. As a very keen worker in the National Trust, and the C.P.R.E. perhaps more particularly, I have always felt that when he was Minister in charge of the planning arrangements he did much to give local authorities the push which they often require, as Lord Strang pointed out, and we were all very grateful to him; and here is another reason for gratitude this afternoon.
I felt very much in agreement with the speech of the right reverend Prelate who has just resumed his seat. Indeed, I think I agreed with everything he said. I should like to comment on many of his remarks, but there is not sufficient time and I do not want to spend what time I have in commenting on individual speeches, except that I should like to follow up what the noble Lord, Lord Hailes, said, speaking from such an intimate knowledge of the work of the Historic Buildings Council. He and his colleagues have really done wonderful work there. I do not think that small sums of money have ever been expended more profitably in this country. I had the opportunity of

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seeing this from the angle of the National Trust, who have benefited a great deal from their help. There can be no doubt that the historic buildings of this country owe an enormous amount to this; and that this miserable pittance was provided only just in time to save very many of them. When we look back from the next century, I think we shall feel that this money, which does not come to the amount which is spent on a bomber from first to last, has been very much more valuably spent than most of the money we spend on bombers. I should like to say that, because I feel this very strongly.
This Bill really consists of an innovatory part, the first clause, and a number of very useful proposals for minor amendments of the law. I should like to say a word or two about some of these, though I shall deal with them very shortly, and particularly in relation to Part II, which deals with trees. I find myself in very strong agreement with several noble Lords who have spoken about the subject this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Henley, made a very good point indeed about the way that trees in cities, in urban areas, are maltreated all the time by pollarding. The men who are put in charge of the pruning arrangements are usually people with no sensitivity whatever, and it almost makes one cry to go through the streets of some of our great cities after this terrible operation has taken place. I hope that in this Bill, or in some way, the appropriate Minister will take powers to deal with this business, because it is one of the worst eyesores in very many of our cities.
The planting of trees, as the noble Lord, Lord Holford, particularly emphasised, is of very great importance. The aspect of this which appeals to me very much is the stepping up of penalties for the deliberate disregard of tree preservation orders and the cutting down of trees without the necessary licences from the appropriate Department. We in the National Trust have suffered very severely on more than one occasion, for a valuable stand of trees can bring in enough to pay all the fines which magistrates can impose, even if they impose them all at the top level, and yet leave a very substantial profit for the miserable men who deliberately break the law
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in this way; and they usually succeed in getting away with it—at any rate that is our experience in the National Trust—before we hear about it and are able to get an injunction.
I hope that these higher penalties will be effective, but I myself would be prepared to put a man like that into prison. Many of the unfortunate men who I, as a chairman of quarter sessions, have to sentence to prison are much less guilty in the eyes of the community than the people who behave in this way. These trees are part of the culture of the country, and deliberately to destroy them in this way seems to me to be in just the same sort of line of conduct as defacing a picture or some other great work of art. I should like to see the provisions of this Bill tightened up even more, and to see the courts given power in proper cases to send a man to prison for this kind of behaviour, as a lesson to others and to deter them from this kind of conduct.
The business about dumping rubbish is, again, a very serious one. I live on the edge of a common on the North side of London, where people bring not only their old motor cars but their old bedsteads and all sorts of other rubbish just to get rid of them. And this is happening all over the country, as the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, emphasised. It is at this point that the urban dweller goes out into the country very often, and the country dweller suffers from his activities of this kind. It is very important, I think, that the authorities should be given powers to handle this particularly noisome problem.
It is interesting to reflect that the Englishman, in a way, is much more a countryman than a town dweller. These crusades (I do not know whether one should call them that) tend to start in the country. The National Trust starts in the country. It is followed by town and country planning, the country planning being much more highly developed—or the control certainly is in many areas—and much more tightly applied in the country than in the towns. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Henley, who referred to advertising. Advertising is really not a problem in the country any longer. The Scapa Society was so successful in its efforts to get the law tightened up in relation to advertising in

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the country that it had no more work to do and had to wind itself up. It is true, of course, that in the urban areas there is still a problem in connection with advertising. But I think that one of the things on which we can legitimately congratulate ourselves in this country is that we have been much more successful in preventing unsightly advertising in the country, and controlling it in the towns, than any other country it has been my fortune to visit. This has frequently been commented on by sensitive visitors from foreign countries after spending a holiday here.
I should like to say just a few words about the first clause and the first Part of the Bill, which is to a large extent innovatory and makes a very important beginning. Your Lordships had a most interesting debate, in which I was not able to take part, about the Arts only a week or two ago. I have not had time to study it very thoroughly in Hansard; but so far as The Times went, it did not seem that there was very much emphasis on architecture, the outside part of culture; and that, I thought, was a pity. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Holford, said. After all, architecture is that part of our art which is visible to everybody.
We cannot go about the streets without bumping up against it. To see pictures one has to go to a picture gallery; or to hear music one has to go to a concert hall. But architecture is, par excellence, that part of our cultural heritage which every citizen bumps up against, and I think that to a large extent, if unconsciously, it forms the taste of large numbers of people. Some of them are beyond hope—they could not have any taste formed—but I think large numbers of people develop a quite reasonable standard of taste through walking about the streets, even in London, and more so in some other cities—particularly Edinburgh, perhaps—and many continental cities. In parenthesis, I should like to say how much I found myself in agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Holford—a distinguished architect—said about work on a tabula rasa being not always so good as the work which the architect has to fit into an already developed area. Whenever I go to the National Trust Office, which is just out-
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side St. James' Park Underground Station, I spend a minute or two looking at that remarkable building which the late Sir Charles Holden built. He was not one of our greatest architects, but he was a very good one, and I think St. James' Park Station is very much his finest piece of work. He had to put it in a very difficult place, and I am quite sure that it was the struggle to put a good building into that place which produced that piece of architecture. When, in Bloomsbury, he was given a tabula rasa and he built the Senate House, I am afraid it was not as good as those of us who worked in the university hoped it would be.
Throughout Western Europe from the seventeenth century, and particularly during the eighteenth century, an urban architecture of great importance and loveliness, often reflecting the cultural traditions and sensitivities of different European nations, was built up. In this country, as John Somerson has shown in his admirable book on Georgian Architecture, particularly in London squares and streets, buildings of real beauty were built during that time and into the nineteenth century. When I first came to London Bloomsbury, to which he devotes a good deal of attention, was still intact. There is not very much of it left. It is a tragedy. I was walking through there only the other evening and found that several streets which had been there last autumn had now been razed to the ground. There are parts of Kensington which are still very fine, but there again the demolition gangs are moving in and the speculative builders are buying up the properties.
I hope that this Bill will be on the Statute Book in time to save some of this cultural heritage which has formed the artistic outlook of many thousands of Londoners. Therefore, I have the greatest pleasure in welcoming this Bill, and I hope that it will shortly be on the Statute Book.
5.25 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, I rise to congratulate both my noble friend Earl Jellicoe and my right honourable friend the member for Streatham, Mr. Duncan Sandys, for having initiated this most important Bill. It has been suggested that the Bill has not gone far enough. With

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that I agree, but one has to remember that this is a Private Member's Bill, and those of us who have had experience of moving Private Member's Bills, as I have, will know that if one tries to "push one's luck" too far, so to speak, one may lose the Bill. In any case, the Government have promised an elaborate countryside Bill, which we await with great interest, because it is bound to have a profund significance so far as the present Bill is concerned.
I think the real value of this Bill will be seen by future generations. There is a tendency—and I think there will be general agreement here—for city centres and town centres to be pulled down or altered somewhat indiscriminately. Sometimes it is the price of progress which has to be paid. Sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes I submit it is not so necessary. But these are probably points which may be pursued in Committee, although obviously a long Committee stage is something we should like to avoid, because with a Bill of this kind its progress would be inevitably jeopardised.
I should like to say a few words about Clause 13, and the question of trees. Being a lover of trees, I deplore as much as anyone the need for having to cut them down. I live in the county of Surrey, where we have many lovely areas of tree land, particularly around the hills, where there is some of the most beautiful country in the whole of Southern England, and also the Sussex Downs, which I know very well and where I have spent many happy hours, particularly in areas such as Friston Forest. When it comes to replacing trees—and I think this part of the Bill is most necessary—we must take great care about the trees which are to replace those cut down. I submit that conifers and most deciduous trees are particularly desirable, whereas elm trees, of course, are highly susceptible to weather conditions. I hope that when the Bill becomes law attention will be paid to this matter. Of course there is a financial problem here. I am a little uncertain as to who is to pay for the replacement of these trees. If it is to be done by private people, obviously they will not want to be put to enormous expense.
I live almost on the edge of a common in Surrey. I know there has been recent legislation on common land, but I hope
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that this Bill at least touches on provisions regarding common land. Quite apart from the dumping of cars and other objects, to which I shall refer in a moment, there is the danger of fire. In a dry summer, particularly on the common near where I live, it is no unusual sight to see a fire engine—or perhaps more than one—combating fires, some of which may have been caused by sheer vandalism and others by carelessness, such as leaving broken bottles which catch the rays of the sun, at such time as the sun decides to shine. These fires can do untold damage, not only to wild life but to shrubs and trees, and those of your Lordships who are authorities on common land will know how long it takes to replace flora and fauna when it is destroyed in this manner.
My Lords, I turn now to Part III and the question of refuse, abandoned cars and suchlike. My noble friend Lord Cromartie, who is unable to be here to-day, has particularly asked me to raise this matter in relation to Scotland, and particularly Northern Scotland where he comes from. Knowing that area myself, I should like to ask the Government what plans they have, particularly for the rural areas, where there is not the necessary personnel to make the collections of these vehicles. Also, who is to pay for this work? Not all county councils, particularly in the North of Scotland, are particularly wealthy, and, alas, places such as the shores of the Gairloch and other areas have tended to become dumping grounds, not only through the actions of people passing to picnics and for other purposes, but because people tend to dump old prams, bicycles, cars, refrigerators on some of the loveliest countryside. I hope that particular attention will be given to requiring a proper method of payment for the collection of these vehicles. I note from the Bill that there is virtually free collection of these objects. This work is desirable, but what is it going to cost?
Not far from where I live there is a dump which is primarily for council house tenants. I am not for one moment going to suggest that council house tenants are necessarily any more untidy than other people, but the collection of these objects is not done very regularly. It is absolutely vital, if this Bill is going to work, that a really regular collection

1119
takes place. All your Lordships will have seen litter bins full of orange peel, papers and other rubbish, and they are full primarily because there is not a regular collection. I hope that in this Bill a real duty will be laid on the local authorities to undertake regular collections. It is all very well having a Litter Act—and I am entirely behind the Litter Act: in fact I think the penalties are, if anything, too low—but there must be a duty to collect the litter regularly so that people do not go by a litter bin or dump and say "It is much too full; I will just throw it on the ground". I think this is a very important point to keep in mind.
There is one omission from the Bill which I hope will be rectified, if not in this Bill then in the forthcoming Countryside Bill. This concerns fire. All too few places of natural beauty have proper fire precautions, and this is particularly true of common land, as I said a few moments ago. Whether it is possible to do it in this Bill I do not know, but it is something to be considered for the future.
Finally, as has been mentioned, there is the question of safety. As a Vice President of ROSPA I am very anxious to see that these old cars, many of them rusty, and it may be with petrol tanks half full, are removed as soon as possible to prevent the kind of accident—sometimes fatal—which happens to a number of children every year. With those words, I commend this Bill to the House.
5.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I take it that one of our main duties in connection with this admirable Bill, which I join with other speakers in welcoming very heartily, will be to ensure, so far as possible, that its provisions are not evaded. I rise to call attention to the possibility which seems to me to exist of the evasion of Clause 19. I have given notice of the point which I am about to raise to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, though I am afraid that it was rather short notice. It may be that in his reply the noble Lord will be able to set my fears at rest.
A month or two ago I was walking down an unrestricted road in London, and I saw a somewhat aged minicar with
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an advertisement on the windscreen. The advertisement indicated that the car was for sale for the sum of £75 and gave the telephone number of the vendor. I do not know whether this way of disposing of an old car is legal under the present law, but I do not think that it would become illegal under the provisions of the Bill we are discussing. I do not believe that a court would hold that a car is abandoned if it is being offered for sale; yet an old car offered for sale, even though it may seem barely saleable, is just as unæsthetic as an old car dumped.
5.37 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships very long. I should like to say first of all how glad I am to see this Bill before your Lordships, and how deeply all of us are indebted to the right honourable gentleman who was responsible for its initiation and its progress through another place, and also to the noble Earl who is looking after it in this House. I agree with everything that has been said this afternoon, and your Lordships may well suppose that in that case there is very little else for me to say. That is true, but I have one or two points I should like to make on each Part of the Bill. They are all of them rather similar. They are basically founded on certain anxieties, if I may put it that way.
I am delighted by the provision that local authorities shall be called upon to schedule certain areas in their jurisdiction. I suppose it is inevitable that this task should be put upon the local authorities, but some of us who have had a certain amount of local authority experience cannot feel entirely happy about that attribution of power. It may be—and it has been said here this afternoon—that there are local authorities which are good, and some which are not so good. Within the last few days your Lordships will have heard or read a great deal about the gasometer in Abingdon. I dare say some of your Lordships even went to look at this proposed horror. If you did, I wonder whether you looked at the far more horrible horror, the destruction of the market place in Abingdon, committed, quite happily presumably, with the approval of the planning officer, if of course there is a planning officer. Unfortunately, it is only too true that there are not planning officers in all the local

1121
authorities. But even planning officers are not guaranteed to be right because, unfortunately, they still have to consult their City Fathers—and I expect all your Lordships at one time or another have come across an alderman or a councillor who is quite certain that he, who has lived there all his life, knows best what is needed to improve the outlook and the development of his town. I suspect something of the sort happened in Abingdon.
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him for a moment, to remind him that one of the major difficulties in the Abingdon case was that the planning authority had no power to prevent the erection of this gasometer?
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I am aware of that. It was, of course, the county council. But clearly the county council have a responsibility for the towns in their neighbourhood; and I should have thought that if a strenuous opposition had been put up by the people of Abingdon—who, incidentally, let me say at once, in other connections are an extremely lively and reliable municipality—then I think that the county planning officer would have advised against this destruction and, what is worse, the replacement.
I should like to say one or two words about trees. I am delighted by the proposal that trees, like houses, are to be protected. I am not quite clear how they will be protected because, as your Lordships are aware, a tree which has been damaged by the cutting of its roots, for example, does not die immediately. How long after the erection of the new building or the construction of the new street, or whatever it is, will the builder or contractor be held responsible for the death of a local tree?
I should like to differ slightly from my noble friend Lord Silkin in one respect. I agree with him entirely in regard to a variety of trees, but I am not sure that the Japanese flowering cherry is the answer to every architect's dream. I should have said that though there is a place for such trees (and beautiful they are when properly placed), among buildings something more substantial and something like a forest tree is much more effective and much more to be desired.
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I am as pleased as anybody in this House by the proposal to eliminate, if possible, the accretion of refuse. But I do not believe that this will be achieved by refuse dumps. These dumps are a nightmare, a "hideousity", an abomination. They stink, and their appearance is unspeakable. Surely the disposal of refuse has to be considered in the light of modern possibilities. There are instruments which will crush this refuse and render it much more easily disposable. These tools are extremely expensive, costing, I believe, as much as £1 million.
It seems to me perfectly clear that no single local authority can possibly undertake the installation of such an apparatus. It is therefore inevitable that they should be supplied by the central Government, with perhaps one in every area large enough to keep it occupied. I am convinced that this is absolutely essential if this major blight upon the face of our countryside is to be removed and prevented from recurring. I hope that I have not sounded too critical, but that my criticism may be useful. I commend this Bill to your Lordships.
5.45 p.m.
LORD WEDGWOOD: My Lords, I should like to add my thanks and congratulations to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, for introducing this admirable Bill, which I am sure will go far to meet the needs of the country in dealing with these difficult problems of preservation and the efficient disposal of wasted assets which now so increasingly litter our countryside. I speak as a countryman who believes that this greatest asset we possess is at all times in need of protection, not only for the benefit of those of us who live in it, and therefore have the greater responsibility to protect it, but for the swelling urban population as a whole who seek relaxation and restoration of spiritual values in returning to the natural beauty and tranquility of our British countryside.
We have all experienced in our travels those many happy stops by the roadside, perhaps for a picnic or a short walk to look at the view, and in our ramblings have come across that unsightly junk heap in a corner of a field, or in some hidden quarry or some disused pit; or, in picking our way through the woodland admiring the bluebells or perhaps listening to the bird life, have stumbled over

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some rusty old horror, and discovered that the undergrowth is littered as far as the eye can see with all these remnants of earlier mechanical masterpieces. It is not only our own reactions which show disgust and repulsion at this blighting of the landscape; our many visitors from overseas are also repelled by this ever-accumulating evidence of some national lack of civic pride and, until now, by our apparent inability to deal effectively with it.
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, referred in his opening speech to the desperately fragile situation on preservation; and the words of the noble Lord, Lord Strang, whom we heard earlier to-day, during a previous debate (on February 23 this year) referred to a "losing battle in defence of the countryside", and the necessity of calling a halt to the "continuing, irreparable spoliation of the dwindling countryside" will be as fresh in your Lordships' minds as they are indeed true of the position to-day. There are also some who may remember an article in a weekend supplement, almost a year ago, which specifically covered many aspects of this spoliation, and showed pictorially the hideousness of these dumps which have been mentioned by so many of your Lordships this afternoon, and stated there the urgency of the situation. So it is indeed most heartening to read the provisions of this Bill before us, and to realise that when they become law they will go such a long way to redress that balance from the losing side nearer to the winning one.
In welcoming this Bill and speaking in its support, I should like to mention one factor—it arises under Part III—which seems to me to be not entirely provided for. That concerns the provisions for the removal from private land which is generally adjacent to public roads of old cars and other mechanical débris for which the landowner cannot really be held responsible. As I understand it, the relevant clauses—Clauses 19, 20, 22 and 23—read to the effect that if a motor vehicle or any other thing is abandoned:
"on any land in the open air or on any other land forming art of a highway"
it is the duty of the authority to remove the vehicle. Or, under Clause 23, they:
"may if they think fit … remove the thing".
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This seems to deal effectively with the future as regards the highways, but it does not deal completely with past abandonments on land which may be privately or publicly owned but on which, by reason of its situation, the owner has not been able to prevent refuse dumping. I am not certain, but it may be that there is a gap in the Bill on which it may be difficult to legislate in a suitable manner.
Perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has examined this point. I believe that if we are to go forward in what I hope is going to be a national purpose with the passage of this Bill, to preserve and enhance what is very much worth preserving in our countryside and also to clean up the detritus of past years, some greater direction, and possibly financial support, may have to be given to local authorities if they are to tackle dumping grounds where neither the owner of the land can be held responsible for the cost of clearance nor can the last owners of the junk be traced. Perhaps there is a case for the availability of a once-for-all grant to enable local authorities to clear up the squalor of the countryside and for a general direction that this should be done with all possible speed. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, referred earlier to this aspect when he mentioned the increased expenses which local authorities might well have to consider, and undoubtedly it might affect their view as to whether they should clear a particular dump or not. Where charges can reasonably be levied, so much the better; but where they cannot be suitably attached then the local authorities should be enabled financially to exercise their powers and "see fit" to remove "the thing". The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said that not a word in this Bill could be unintelligible to your Lordships. Perhaps the "thing", although all-embracing, is a little unintelligible.
Certainly I, as one British taxpayer, feel that the expenditure of extra money for clearance is something upon which I should prefer my money to be spent rather than in some other directions, and I suspect that many of your Lordships feel the same. I think there is a problem in who will pay for the clearance of dumps and in the effect that this may have on local government views as to whether they "shall think fit" or not. I hope that this matter can be gone into during

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the passage of this wholly admirable Bill, and perhaps the noble Earl will be able to think of a possible solution if he considers, as I hope he does, that these points are worthy of further examination.
5.55 p.m.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, in general what this Bill sets out to achieve is excellent, and it is a very great credit to its sponsors who have worked so hard to try to make everybody appreciate our countryscape and townscape and to help make it, and keep it, an agreeable and clean place in which to live. I have some criticisms and suggestions to offer upon the Bill, and some questions to ask, upon which I hope my noble friend will be able to help me when he comes to reply. However good the principles behind Part I of the Bill which seeks to preserve the character of certain areas, I have some reservations.
I feel very cautious about encouraging parts of Britain to be turned into museums. One can go too far. The kind of thing of which I am thinking has already occurred in National Parks. Those who live in them have to abide by some curious rules in regard to, say, the colour and texture that they must make, and keep, their roofs. Some people are charmed by stone-tiled and clay-tiled roofs. My experience of them is that they are awkward, leaky and expensive to maintain; and most slate roofs, are, in my opinion, ugly, leaky and expensive to maintain. The simplest and cheapest form of building material yet invented is concrete asbestos sheet. Yet some people throw a fit if one uses it on a barn, let alone on a house. In one area which I know quite well—not a National Park—farmers have solemnly had to paint their barn roofs with cow dung to hide the offensive whiteness. They are encouraged to have white walls, but not white roofs. To me, there is little æsthetic difference between a white roof, a red roof, and a grey roof.
The trouble is that asbestos cement is a new material, and is associated in people's minds with factories. It is likely that stone tiles were at one time looked upon by some with disfavour when they replaced thatch, which certainly has no virtue in itself, unless it be a certain quaintness. There is no reason why asbestos cement could not be moulded
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to look like tiles, though that would really be a little absurd. This is the sort of rule which can—and it is likely will—be made in designated areas, and I hope that the protests of the inhabitants will be listened to and respected by those who seek to impose regulations about something as arbitrary, whimsical, subjective, impracticable and expensive as æsthetic tastes and opinions can be. That our countryside looks like it does is very largely accidental. One must appreciate that it is, and always has been, changing, and we must mind what we are about if we try to freeze it in any one position.
Historic buildings are a different matter, for there are rarely doubts about what one is trying to preserve, and there are grants for upkeep and replacements. Here I think that we should make it as certain as we can that an historic building, once listed, is maintained as well as it reasonably can be maintained. It appears to me that amendment to the Bill might profitably be made to help towards this end. The first is in regard to Clause 2 where, perhaps rightly, an offence is committed where it is proved that the person charged did not know, and could not reasonably be expected to have known, that the building preservation order in question had been made. I do not know the procedure at the moment as to how a new owner is informed that his purchase is designated or listed. It would be much less easy to plead ignorance if the designation were entered in the conveyance, and perhaps on the deeds. The same could and should apply to tree preservation orders under Part II. In both cases entering the designation order on the deeds would have the additional virtue of fairness, for a prospective owner would be almost certain to be informed or warned thereby.
The next amendment which I should like to make is one to cover the case of somebody who buys a property which is listed as being of historic interest or as an ancient monument, and who just lets it fall to pieces by neglect. Clause 3 of the Bill refers to:
"any person who, but for this section, would be entitled to do so, does or permits the doing of any act which causes or is likely to result in damage to the building"
and so on. So what the clause says is that if he does something, he can be prosecuted; it does not say that if he

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does nothing, he can be prosecuted. Neglect and injudicious treatment are mentioned in Clause 10 of the 1953 Act, but in that case the Minister has to be told by the Ancient Monuments Board that the building is being neglected, when he can serve an interim preservation notice on the owner.
What can happen though, and I suspect it is happening at the moment in a case of which I know, is that someone can purchase a house and grounds, perhaps in a strategic place on the edge of a town or in the middle of a town. He purchases it at a reduced price because it is listed as being of historic interest. He can let it fall down because nobody from the Ancient Monuments Board happens to come round, and can then claim an absurdly high grant to put the place in order. When that is refused because the place is not worth it, he may successfully apply to pull it down and put houses there instead. I do not know how one could word a suitable Amendment which applied to houses but did not necessarily apply to ruins, but some way should be found to do it, and it should be an owner's duty, so far as is reasonable, to see that his ancient monument does not fall into decay.
Before I leave the matter of buildings, I wonder whether my noble friend could enlighten me on this point. Under the Leasehold Reform Bill estates which have so far been managed by responsible landlords will be split up. Crescents and terraces and squares may have been painted uniformly by the landlords, but on enfranchisement each tenant will be free to paint his house any colour he likes. Even one freeholder can absolutely ruin such a terrace by painting his house a different colour. I want to know whether Part I can be made to cover this matter.
I have some questions about Part III, To relieve the towns and countryside of old vehicles and other ironmongery would be splendid, but it may not be easy or cheap, because, however quickly motor cars appear to disintegrate in normal use, they need professional attention and large and costly machinery to destroy them entirely at the end of their lives. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has mentioned the various machines for scrapping and baling. I should like to know
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how local authorities will be expected to cope with and dispose of old cars and scrap which they will be collecting, and how they will be encouraged to form a syndicate to buy the huge balers which will otherwise be beyond their means. Perhaps I have asked too many questions, and the remainder are really Committee points.
Finally, I should like to say that I wish the public would learn to be more tidy-minded. By that I do not mean that the whole country should be clinically cleaned, with everything trimmed and regimented neatly in rows. I should not like to see it like that, because that sort of tidiness is only for cemeteries. I am talking of the public being tidier about litter. On the day I first read this Bill I was sitting in my car at the traffic lights where Beauchamp Place joins Brompton Road, and a woman came out of a shop with a small, empty jar in her hand. It might have contained boot polish or face cream. Quite deliberately, she bent down and put it into the gutter and then she dusted her hands and walked back into the shop. I was flabbergasted but I was too pushed for time to do anything about it. But that woman, after all these years, still thought that the gutter was the natural repository for rubbish. Others think that over the hedge is the best place. I wish that somehow we could succeed in educating people into thinking otherwise.
6.5 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I owe the House an apology for not having heard the whole of this debate, and I rise only to put a point very shortly. I told my noble friend the substance of it, but I confess that I find it very difficult indeed to work out, because this legislation and other legislation to which I propose to refer in a moment follow on a number of amending Acts and the like, and one really does not know where one is in the whole matter.
If I am right, the Minister of Works is still the guardian of a number of ancient monuments, and there are arrangements as to their preservation and the like in the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act 1953. Though there have been some changes made, that, in substance, is still the position. If I read the Act rightly, I do not think

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it includes buildings occupied as dwellings by anybody other than the caretaker, but it does include a great many buildings which, had they been occupied, would possibly have been a subject for the Bill which we are now considering.
I should like very much to know—not now, because this is not a question which one can expect any Minister to answer without notice—what is the position about ancient monuments and ancient buildings in this country. What are the respective jurisdictions and functions of the Ministry of Housing and the Ministry of Works? I notice in one part of this Bill, in a clause which deals with loans in lieu of grants in certain cases, a reference to "any Minister", and I think the legislation says that "any Minister" may include the Minister of Works. I rise to mention this, because when I was in another place I had to do with some of this legislation in Committee, and I remember that at that time there was double jurisdiction, which no doubt had a historical foundation but which seemed to have little administrative sense about it. I am rather disappointed to see that there is no attempt to deal with that question—if, as I suspect, it still exists—in a very useful Bill for which time has been found. That is really all I want to ask.
I should like to add that this does not apply to Scotland, because Scotland has a Secretary of State who is, as it were, a Prime Minister without a Cabinet, and the whole thing is co-ordinated in the Scottish Office—at least, I hope it is. I am not quite certain about Wales. Certain functions have been transferred to Wales lately, and there may or may not be a similar difficulty there. But it is a very real point. It has gone on like this for very many years indeed, simply because nobody has ever faced up to the question of trying to see what was the most economical and sensible way of dealing with the preservation of ancient monuments and buildings as a whole in the country.
6.9 p.m.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships that at this late hour I should intervene in this debate without notice, but I can assure you that it will be for only a very few minutes. I am wholeheartedly in support of this Bill and I would, if I may, respectfully
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add my congratulations to my noble friend Earl Jellicoe and to my right honourable friend Mr. Sandys; and, indeed, not only congratulations but warm thanks, too, for tackling this problem at last. I am, if I may say so, especially attracted by the concept in Part I of the conservation and preservation of areas as opposed to single, particular houses. I am sure that this is a very big step forward in what we are trying to do.
Mention is made a good deal in this Bill about local authorities. I wonder whether I might ask the noble Lord, Lord Kennet: what is the real position of the area of Whitehall? In introducing the Second Reading of this Bill this afternoon, my noble friend mentioned this, I think, on one occasion. If I remember rightly, it is not a matter in which a local authority has any jurisdiction at all, but is a matter for the Government of the day. The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, probably knows what I have at the back of my mind in asking that question. I remember that some years ago, in another place, there was a great deal of discussion and some controversy regarding the future of the Foreign Office, and at Question Time I asked the then Minister of Works, Mr. Geoffrey Rippon, when it was their intention to pull down the Horse Guards. That was not quite as silly as it sounds, because if you are thinking about the preservation of buildings, and if a building like the Foreign Office is sacrificed, then long after the reaper has caught up with all of us here, in perhaps fifty years' time, someone is going to come along and say, "The Horse Guards does not fit this area, in these particular surroundings; therefore, that must come down too." I believe that a decision in principle may have been taken about the future of the Foreign Office, but I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, that he should not regard this pass as completely sold, and that if we are thinking about preservation and conservation this should be high on the list.
I do not know how in a field like this I dare even comment on anything which may have been said by the noble Lord, Lord Holford, to whom the country owes so much for all his work, thought and ideas, but he said something during his speech to-day which worried me a little, if I understood him correctly. He was talking in the context, I think, of

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public buildings, and I understood him to say that these old, beautiful buildings, with wonderful sculpture, flying buttresses and so on, which were built in the past, were models of discomfort and inconvenience inside, whereas the new buildings which were going up had all the amenities and comforts inside that they very rightly should have. This worried me a little, because I cannot see why one cannot have both the convenience and the amenity inside and the beauty outside as well; for I have the fear that posterity is not readily going to forgive this generation for some of the things which we have perpetrated in our time.
May I say one word about Part II? The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred to the beauty of trees—and how right he is! He spoke of the need for elasticity (I think that was the word he used) in the approach to this problem of replanting and so on, and I am sure he is right about that. I also agree absolutely with what the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, said a few minutes ago, when he remarked that the flowering cherry is not the answer to everything, and when he also remarked upon the desirability of planting forest trees.
It is conceivable, when you are considering replanting, that there may be some commercial considerations as well. I would therefore express the hope—and perhaps my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, may think this worthy of consideration—that the Forestry Commission should be brought in to advise on the species most suitable for replanting in any given area. They have the experience and the knowledge, and I cannot think of a better body to advise on what would be a very important decision over replanting, and one which will affect for many years to come the area in which the planting is to take place. I therefore hope that this suggestion may be thought worth while considering. Having said that, I would once again say how very strongly I support this Bill.
6.15 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, perhaps I may start by taking up some of the stray points, as it were, and work backwards through them. The noble Lord, Lord Oakshott, asked about the position of Whitehall. The position is that it
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is a street in the area of the Greater London Council and in the City of Westminster, and most of it is Government property. There is the Whitehall Plan, which was inherited from the Conservative Government, and reaffirmed by this Government; and part of that Plan, which was laid down for the consultants before they were hired, was the demolition of the Foreign Office. I believe that the demolition of the Foreign Office and new building on that site is not among the first things which are to be done under this Plan. The general situation of Government property, as the House well knows, is that, although Crown property is exempt from the planning law, there is a procedure whereby consultations are held between the owning Department and the local authorities concerned, so that in effect very much the same thing happens as would happen if planning law were applied in its full public rigour.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord on that particular point? Am I right in thinking that, with the qualification he has made about the particular ownership of the public buildings in Whitehall, there would be nothing against the London borough council concerned and the G.L.C. together designating Whitehall, if they so wished, as a conservation area?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I can think of nothing against it on the spur of the moment, and the observations of the Greater London Council on the Whitehall Plan are, as the House knows, already in the hands of the Government.
My noble friend Lord Mitchison asked me about the relationship between the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in this field. I will, if he wishes, give him a full and proper answer later on, when I have had time to prepare it. Generally speaking, there are in the country ancient monuments, which stem from legislation beginning in 1913, and there are buildings listed as of architectural and historical interest, which stem from legislation dated 1944. Normally, the ancient monument is uninhabited. It may be a ruined abbey—that kind of thing. But not all are uninhabited: some are inhabited. I could find out later the precise proportions. Always, I think, the

1133
listed building is inhabited. Until last year the control of listed buildings was in the hands of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, but the funds for their maintenance were in the hands of the Minister of Works, and the control of ancient monuments was in the hands of the Minister of Works. What has happened recently is that the funds for the maintenance of listed buildings have been transferred from the Minister of Works to the Minister of Housing and Local Government. There is a faintly tricky boundary line here, but I must say that in practice it does not give us too much trouble. We work closely together and the two sets of powers are handled together.
The noble Lord, Lord Raglan, asked about the effect of leasehold enfranchisement upon estates which are largely leasehold and which all look nice because they are painted the same colour. We can go into this question in greater detail when the Leasehold Bill comes before us, as it shortly will, but this point has been thought of, I am glad to say, and when a leasehold estate is broken up, or partially broken up, by enfranchisement what will happen is this. We all have in mind great estates, especially in London, where this will apply. The freeholder will apply to the Minister of Housing and Local Government for a declaration that his estate has been a well-managed estate. If he obtains this declaration, which should not be too difficult to obtain, he will then arrive at a scheme of management which will be adhered to by both himself, as residual freeholder in houses which have not been enfranchised, and by the new freeholders in houses which have been so enfranchised. This will be a unified scheme of management; and this will then have to be approved by the court. I think we need have no fear that Belgravia or the Cadogan Estates are going to burst out in a rash of pink and green paint. This provision in the Leasehold Bill is designed, at any rate, to ensure this.
My Lords, as many speakers have recognised, Part I of this Bill carries us beyond the concept of the "single gem" towards the concept of the whole area, or zone, in a town or village. Not that the Bill has nothing to say about single gems: it was only last year that the owner of a
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14th century manor house near Solihull, in the Midlands, illegally knocked it down and was duly fined £100. I am not precisely informed of how much the deal was worth to him; but I believe it was considerably more than 100 times as much as the fine he paid. Under this Bill, he could be fined a sum equal to or—there is no ceiling—above whatever profit he got out of the new development on the site of that 14th century manor house.
This is Part I and it sets the tone of the Bill. It introduces an altogether more determined era in the planning of these matters. The noble Lord, Lord Raglan, asked me two very interesting questions. He asked whether the fact that a building was listed ought not to appear on the title deeds of that building and so be immediately apparent to any future purchaser. It does, of course, appear on the Land Register, or, in Scotland, on the Register of Sasines; so, if the would-be purchaser makes an ordinary search, he will find out. It may be that he does not make the ordinary search and will never know. As a "snap" reaction, my view is that it is probably enough as it stands, but I will look at it again.
The noble Lord's other interesting suggestion was about wilful neglect and decay. The Bill copes with the owner of a listed building who deliberately removes a tile. He can now be ordered to put it back, and can be prosecuted if he does not. But what about the owner who deliberately sits back and twiddles his thumbs, hoping that the tiles will fall off themselves—as of course they always do. And when that happens the building decays and is lost. I think this is a most interesting suggestion. I am not sure what the right answer would be. If the noble Lord feels like putting down an Amendment on this point, with exploratory intent, I should welcome it.
The noble Lord, Lord Hailes, inquired about the effect of the provision that the Historic Buildings Council will be able to give loans as well as grants in future. I do not know whether he had in mind the possibility that this was the thin end of a wedge tending towards a reduction. of the total sum of money available for the Minister to expend on the advice of the noble Lord's Council. That is not the idea at all. It is to give the Minister increased flexibility in his operations. There are many cases where a loan would do the trick and where a grant would

1135
not be necessary. The provision is there only in order to allow that to happen. I should like to say at this point how grateful my right honourable friend is, as were his predecessors, for the work done for a long time by the noble Lord, Lord Hailes, as Chairman of the Historic Buildings Council, and the noble Lord, Lord Holford as chairman of what is now a sub-committee of it, on the actual technical criteria to be adopted when buildings are listed.
A provision in the Bill which has not been noticed—it is a small one, but it makes a beneficial change—is that a local authority can now acquire buildings compulsorily for the purpose of preservation whether or not they have a building preservation order on them. This means that all the 102,000 buildings on the statutory lists can now be compulsorily acquired by the local authorities for that purpose. I do not suppose they will acquire many. Unfortunately they will not have the funds. But this introduces yet another area of flexibility. The bringing of parsonages within the ambit of the planning laws is another clear advance. As a matter of fact, I think everybody in the Ministries concerned believed that they were within it. "An ecclesiastical building in ecclesiastical use", which is the term used in the Planning Act, sounds like a church. But, lo and behold! a court one day decided that it also covered a parsonage; that this was an "ecclesiastical use". We were surprised; everybody was surprised. The anomaly is now rectified.
But, my Lords, the great point of this Bill is the establishment of the conservation area. The Bill for the first time gives statutory effect to this idea of group value. We have all pointed it out. This is the biggest advance of all. The noble Lord, Lord Strang, took exception to the weakness of the words which bind the local authorities, having designated an area, simply to "have regard to the desirability of maintaining and enhancing" and so on. He said that it would have been better to bind them to "maintain and enhance". This is an interesting proposal. I should like to consider it between now and the Committee stage. One can see pitfalls in it; but I agree that to "have regard to the desirability
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of" is not as strong language as it might be.
Many noble Lords have asked the question that arises after an authority has designated its area: What is it supposed to do about it? What does the Minister propose to do about it? What are the powers of direction he has? Basically, it is to be up to the local authority to decide what to do about it; and I think everybody conversant with this field realises that the great problem is how much money they have with which to do it—money for paying out grants and, let us face it, for hiring skilled staff to decide what is the best thing to do. I hope that the local authorities will designate rather a lot of land, large areas; that they will be rather liberal. The fact that the area is designated is not in itself going to provide the money to do the necessary jobs; but we hope that in the future the money will come along. Then the area will be there and the thought and the planning will be ready to match with the money when it does come along.
I hope the local authorities will designate not simply the High Street, the little mediæval yards, the obvious bits. I hope they will designate whole quarters of towns and, in some cases, whole towns within the walls. I hope that they will designate Victorian quarters, good Victorian development, with fine streets which are still untouched and which should remain untouched. I hope that they will designate villages. I hope that they will have some liberality of designation in this field.
They are not going to be without advice. My right honourable friend will be publishing later this year a book called Preservation and Change—a title familiar to many noble Lords who work in this field. It has been in preparation for a long time. It contains the background doctrine about how to reconcile what is old and good with the need to develop new and good things. It is not technical; it is in no sense mandatory. It is simply background information, and it contains a mass of pictures of things well done and things badly done. The Minister, soon after the Bill passes, will also send out to local authorities a circular which will contain much more concrete advice on how to proceed. Between now and then I shall be in touch—I hope in continuous touch—with the

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Civic Trust and the Historic Buildings Council on what ought to go in the circular.
Lastly, my Lords, on the question of direction. My noble friend Lord Silkin asked whether there could not be a Schedule to the Bill saying what the Minister could give directions about. I should be rather against that. I think it would be better to leave it open, as far as the Bill is concerned. The circular is going to contain hints of circumstances which might give rise to ministerial direction. The obvious circumstances is the case where one local authority do nothing for "x" months. It may then he necessary for the Minister to prod them. One can imagine (although if the circular is widely drafted it should not arise) an awkward disparity of standards between one local authority and another. If there is not a corporate body of wisdom developed in time, one local authority might put down dozens or hundreds of small conservation areas and others might put down one or two simply enormous ones. This situation ought to be avoided and we shall help the authorities to avoid it.
Despite all the good advice that Lord Hailes and Lord Holford have given successive Ministers, and despite the existing powers—which are insufficient; and this Bill goes some way to rectify them—we are at present legally losing listed buildings at the rate of rather more than one each day, including Sundays—that is, about 400 a year. I do not know how long it takes, on average, to knock down an old building, but if we say that it takes a week, we must imagine that somewhere in this country there are seven listed buildings being legally knocked down.
We can improve the powers—we are improving them; this Bill is doing it. Everybody hopes that in due course we shall be able to increase what is known in the trade as the H.B.C. slice. At present it is running at £450,000. The noble Lord, Lord Hailes, compared that with the amount of money available for the live arts and museums, which is considerably more, and the contrast strikes one in the face. In time it will be increased, but I do not know when. I think that even when it is increased to any considerable amount there will still
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be a gap between the cost of building and letting or selling new building, and the cost of restoring, repairing and maintaining and letting or selling an historic building.
We must develop planning procedures—and this we are working on hard with the local authorities at the moment—to direct the right amount of wealth into the historic quarters of our towns; not too much, otherwise you "bust" them up and the pressure for skyscrapers becomes irresistible; not too little, otherwise the buildings decay, people simply go elsewhere, and the buildings fall down. I am not without hope that we may, in time, develop planning procedures with wisdom and experience and hit it just about right in most of our historic towns. I hope we shall get the right amount of wealth by normal planning Bills, by channelling the wealth here, there and elsewhere; with industrial development in one place, transport in another, and so on, so that we can make a living concern of these historic centres without knocking them down.
Various things will have to be done beyond the Civic Amenities Bill. We should look ahead to future legislation. The Minister has under consideration at the moment various provisions which could go in a later Bill, in particular the matter of the compensation payable to a householder who is denied permission to knock down his old house and build something more profitable. At present a local authority acquiring a listed building for the purposes of preservation has to pay not only compensation for the value of the building being acquired, which is normal, but also compensation for the value resident in the very development it is preventing. It says to the vendor, "The development you propose is anti-social, but still we will compensate you for not being allowed to do it". This matter is under consideration.
My Lords, I turn now to Parts II and III of the Bill where there is a reference to trees. I do not want to take the House in detail through the Bill because the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, did that. The noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, inquired how long after new development a developer might be held to be liable to replace a tree if it had died, after some delay, because the roots had been cut.

1139
The answer is that there is no limitation on the period. If a tree dies, the local authority may decide that it was due to the developer having been careless about the roots, and take appropriate steps. If the developer argued, the matter would have to be settled by the courts. There is no limitation.
I turn now to the question of rubbish. The noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, inquired about the most interesting case of a car bearing a "For Sale" sign which had been placed in a street. Many factors would have to be taken into consideration. Quite likely the car would not be licensed, and if that were so it would he an offence to leave it about. The "For Sale" notice might be bogus. Under the provisions in this Bill a local authority might take the trouble to follow up the offer for sale and if the notice was bogus the car might be held to be abandoned. It would then be caught under the Bill.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, would it not be difficult to prove to a court that the sale notice was a bogus one?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I think it an obvious conclusion that it would be difficult indeed, but the short answer to the question is that to put a "For Sale" notice on a car which is in the street, whether the vehicle is stationary or moving, is not in itself an offence; nor is it in itself—nor will it be in itself—proof that a car has not been abandoned. in the terms of the provisions of this Bill.
Several noble Lords expressed fears about stinking rubbish dumps and asked whether large new rubbish dumps would appear because of the provisions in the Bill. Of course, nothing in the Bill changes the existing public health provisions about rubbish dumps, and nothing, in the Bill—I profoundly hope and confidently believe—will change the standards which local authorities observe about rubbish dumps. All it is intended to do is stimulate local authorities to provide rubbish dumps, especially for the enormous things. and especially for cars and "things", by the way, is intended to be interpreted very largely as parts of cars, It is intended to stimulate local authorities to provide places where these may
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be taken and left. I hope and suppose that the fears about an increased incidence of bad dumps in the country because of this Bill will not prove justified.
The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, inquired about what would happen in Scotland, especially in the case of the poorer local authorities. I should perhaps say that everything in the Bill applies to Scotland and there are poor local authorities in England as well. The provisions in the Bill have the welcome and blessing of the Scottish local authorities' associations. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Hughes will look at the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and if necessary will make a further statement, or observations, about them when we come to deal with the relevant clause in Committee.
Lastly, my Lords, I would join with virtually every other speaker in congratulating and thanking the "father" of the Bill, Mr. Sandys, and, shall we say, its "uncle" the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, who brought it before your Lordships' House. For me it has been a great pleasure to work with Mr. Sandys and with the Civic Trust in the drafting of the Bill, and I look forward with equal confidence to its being a pleasure in the future to work with the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, during the Committee stage. My Lords, the Government give this Bill 100 per cent. support. We are confident that it is an excellent measure and that it will mark a turning point in the history of attempts by Private Members in another place and Members of your Lordships' House, and Governments, to make this country an even nicer place to live in than it is at present.
6.36 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I shall detain your Lordships for only a moment. I should like to thank all those noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. They have brought a very wide experience and much particular expertise to our discussions. I would particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, for his informative and constructive remarks. I shall certainly undertake to consider very carefully—and those are not light words—between now and the Committee stage the specific suggestions which have been made. It is obvious that I may count on the continued advice of the noble

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Lord, Lord Kennet, and the ingenuity of the Parliamentary draftsmen. In conclusion, I should like to thank your Lordships for the reception which you have accorded to this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD SAFETY BILL
6.38 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Road Safety Bill, has consented to place Her interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a. —(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
Clause 2:
Breath tests
2.—(1) A constable in uniform may require any person driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place to provide a specimen of breath for a breath test there or nearby, if the constable has reasonable cause—

(a) to suspect him of having alcohol in his body; or

(b) to suspect him of having committed a traffic offence while the vehicle was in motion.

LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that no requirement may be made by virtue of paragraph (b) of this subsection unless it is made as soon as reasonably practicable after the commission of the traffic offence".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will remember that both in Committee and on Report the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, raised a doubt regarding Clause 2(1)(b), which provides for a driver to be required to provide a specimen of his breath for a
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breath test if a constable has reasonable cause to suspect him of having committed a traffic offence while his vehicle was in motion.
The noble Lord, Lord Conesford, said during the Committee stage, that although everyone assumed that this referred to a recent traffic offence, after careful examination of the words it was possible to construe them as a reference to an offence committed some weeks, and perhaps some years, previously. I expressed an objection to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, that we should include the word "recent", because I took the view that it might increase our difficulties, in that we could be directing the attention of the police to the fact that it could be a recent offence in the sense that it could have been committed some weeks before. It is clearly the intention of the Government that there should be some direct relation between the moving traffic offence and the amount of alcohol in the body. I was pressed by noble Lords at the end of the Committee stage to undertake to see what could be done. This Amendment is the result.
It is not a perfect formula, because I do not believe that a perfect formula is possible. We could lay down a rigid time limit, but this would be arbitrary and would inevitably lead to anomalies. On the other hand, a more general indication of what Parliament have in mind could be open to different interpretations and hence make the task of the courts more difficult. If this Amendment is accepted, it could still be argued that there could be difficulties in exceptional cases where it is not reasonably practical for the police to take the required test for several hours, or even for several days, because they had failed to catch the driver at the time of the offence or soon after. The police will still have the advice of the Home Secretary to guide them.
The Amendment will make it clear that there is no question of the police having an unlimited power to apply a breath test to any driver who has committed a moving traffic offence. It therefore reduces the possibility of a perverse employment or interpretation of the subsection. My advisers and I have worked hard to see whether we could meet noble Lords. I will be frank and say that this is not so good as I should like it to be,

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but in all the circumstances it is the best that we can do. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 33, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Shepherd.)
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord and his advisers for the work they have done to meet the arguments put forward by my noble friend and myself on this matter. It is not an easy problem. I think that the Amendment which the noble Lord has moved is better than he made it appear to the House, and I support it. The real value of the Amendment is that it gives an indication to the courts as to the way in which this clause should be interpreted. I think it will be useful to have this guidance to the police as to how they should operate these powers, but that is no substitute for a Statute providing what it is intended to provide. Without this Amendment, there is really no guidance to the courts who are to adjudicate on this matter, guidance which would enable them to say that paragraph (b) would not apply, even though it might be that the offence had taken place six months or a year before. With this Amendment, it is clear that there must be a close relationship between the commission of an offence while the vehicle was in motion and the driver being stopped by the police for a breath test to be taken. As the noble Lord knows, I should be against any specific limitation of time, and I think this Amendment is just about right. I conclude as I began, by thanking the noble Lord for the time and trouble he has taken to meet this point.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, may I give a passing sigh over the fact that when a master of the English language like my noble friend Lord Conesford thinks that there is something to be achieved by inserting the word "recent", it takes three lines in practice to achieve this result? May I make one brief suggestion? The Amendment is a proviso to a subsection which enables a police constable to act on suspicion, but the proviso itself appears to abandon the concept of suspicion, because it says that the police constable has to act reasonably quickly "after the commission of the traffic offence", making it appear as
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though the constable does not act lawfully unless an offence has actually been committed, which I think is not the intention. I think it would have been better to have inserted the word "suspected" in the proviso, so as to make it read:
"after the suspected commission of the traffic offence",
making it clear that the proviso, as well as the subsection to which it applies, still deals with a case of reasonable suspicion. But it is rather late in the day to be putting forward a suggestion of this kind.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have been conscious for some time that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, wished to share the cloak of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, as a protector of the English language, particularly so far as legislation is concerned. I assure him that the words I have suggested in this Amendment, which the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, has so warmly supported, are not to be classed with the original suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford. We have moved a good distance away from "recent". I am grateful to the noble Lord for having drawn my attention to his point about inspection before we commenced proceedings, and I have been in touch with the Parliamentary draftsmen. I would explain that although the words on the Marshalled List give the appearance of being a separate power, they follow immediately after the word "motion", so that the subsection would read:
"…if the constable has reasonable cause … (b) to suspect him of having committed a traffic offence while the vehicle was in motion, provided that no requirement be made …"
I am advised that the word "suspect" at the beginning of that sentence is sufficient, and that there is no need for a second "suspect". I hope that explanation will satisfy the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9 [Determination of plated weights and other particulars, and goods vehicle tests.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend. This Amendment is the product of the continuous

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process of consultation that is going on. Clause 9(8) provides a penalty for the driver who fails to comply with the requirement of subsection (6)(c)(ii), the driver who fails to be present when required during the examination of his vehicle, or fails to drive it when directed to do so, or fails to operate the controls if directed by the examiner.
This is a case where the interests of the owner and the driver may be different. The driver may have little interest in his job or vehicle and therefore may refuse to collaborate with the examiner. The flow of work along the testing lines will be delayed, and therefore this cannot be allowed. On the other hand, it is conceivable that a driver may wish to absent himself from his vehicle without being able to ask permission of the examiner, who himself may be absent. One can see this sort of situation arising if there was an epidemic of gastric 'flu and both had to be absent from their places. The Amendment leaves sufficient flexibility in the regulations so that in such circumstances the driver does not automatically render himself liable to a penalty under subsection (8). This is the aim of the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 45, after ("thereof") insert ("being a contravention which is declared by the regulations to be an offence").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13 [Supplementary provisions]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM LORD WINTERBOTTOM moved, after subsection (1), to insert as a new subsection:
"(2) Without prejudice to any regulations made by virtue of section 9(6)(c) of this Act, as applied by this section, the Minister may give directions with respect to the manner in which examinations to which such regulations apply are to be carried out".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a simple drafting Amendment. It is designed to achieve uniformity between the provisions of Clause 9, which deals with plating and testing examinations for pre-type approval vehicles and non-type approval vehicles, and the provision of Clause 13, which covers, among other things, examinations for replating a type approved vehicle on which a notified alteration affecting a plated weight has been made. In regulations for the purpose of
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such examinations under Clause 13 examination procedures laid down in Clause 9 may be imported, but no provision exists at present in the Bill for the Minister to give examiners directions, as he can give under Clause 9(7), as to the manner in which examination is to be carried out. If the power is given to the Minister for examination in Clause 9, the same power ought logically to be given to him where under Clause 13 he applies Clause 9 procedure to an examination. This is an Amendment to achieve consistency between Clauses 9 and 13. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 45, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18 [Operators' duty to inspect, and keep records of inspections of, goods vehicles]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this is a simple drafting Amendment designed to make it clear that not more than one person is essential for the purpose of inspections under Clause 18. We are not foreseeing groups of people examining vehicles; one will be sufficient. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 41 leave out ("suitably qualified persons") and insert ("a suitably qualified person").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19 [Licensing of drivers of heavy goods vehicles]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I move Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 together. These are pure drafting Amendments. The subsections, as drafted, refer to "area" when meaning "traffic area". Since the full term "traffic area" is used elsewhere in the Bill, and defined in Clause 29, these Amendments are moved for the sake of consistency. I beg to move Amendment No. 5.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 35, after second ("the") insert ("traffic").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 6.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 28, after second ("the") insert ("traffic").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29 [Supplemental]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Raglan has achieved a right and left here without knowing it. At the Report stage of the Bill, his Amendment leaving out the word "again" was accepted. If this is correct, the word "again" in Clause 29(3)(b) is equally unnecessary and could be confusing. It is therefore proposed to leave it out. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 1, leave out ("again").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I think this proves that, when it comes to the English language, all the purists are not on this side of the House.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33 [Short title, citation, commencement and extent]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this Amendment is merely simplification. Clause 33(4) at present provides that:
"This Act, except so much of section 6 as relates to persons subject to service discipline within the meaning of that section, does not extend to Northern Ireland."
With the Amendment I am now moving the Bill will read:
"This Act, except as provided by section 6, does not extend to Northern Ireland."
I am certain that this is an improvement. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 21, leave out from ("except") to end of line 22 and insert ("as provided by section 6").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to take Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 together. This again is an attempt to bring order into the Bill. Parliamentary draftsmen like sections to run in numerical order. This brings sections 185,
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193 and 195 in the right order in the Bill when it is printed. It is apparently desirable. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 11, at end insert—
("3. In section 185(1), for the reference to section 184 there shall be substituted a reference to section 16 of this Act").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I beg to move No. 10.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 14, leave out paragraph 4.—(Lord Winterbottom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. This is an important Bill, shortly to become an Act, and I should like to say a few words before we part with it. First of all, I wish to express my great appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, and his noble friends who took part in the processes of the Bill, either in debate or in Divisions. I should like to express appreciation also to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, for his persistent examination of the drafting of the Bill. I could not help thinking, when I saw some of the Amendments, that the Parliamentary draftsman, apart from being a very good Parliamentary draftsman, also had a sense of humour, and was able to spot some of his own defects, which were defects that had escaped the notice of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, and put them right. I am grateful, too, to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, for having moved an Amendment in Committee, which we were later able to accept on Report and which empowers constables to arrest without a warrant any person driving while disqualified.
It is interesting that, although we may have had some disputes on one or two parts of the Bill, at no stage has there been any question of the need for this legislation. Part II of the Bill certainly will bring about a major improvement in our goods vehicles. I believe it will lead to far better designs, and this may well contribute to our export trade. But Part I, dealing with drink and driving, which will affect all our social habits, has

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perhaps been more in our minds than Part II.
I should like to give your Lordships some recent statistics, because they have a bearing on the reason why this Bill is thought to be necessary, and why the public should regard this Bill, when it becomes an Act, as something that must be abided by. The Government have asked for laboratory tests to be carried out on drivers or riders killed in road accidents to discover their blood alcohol concentration. More recently this arrangement has been extended to cover all road users. Results for December, 1966, are complete, and we have a large proportion of those relating to the first quarter of this year.
In December, 1966, nearly half of the drivers and riders killed had been drinking. Over the whole period, December to March, 2 in 5 of those for whom we have reports had been drinking. Significantly, two-thirds of those who had been drinking had blood alcohol levels above the prescribed limit of 80 mg., and nearly half in excess of 150 mg. It is too soon to draw firm conclusions from this exercise, except perhaps that these latest figures suggest no improvement over previous results obtained by the Road Research Laboratory. Nor do they give us any grounds to suppose that British drivers behave differently after they have been drinking than do those drivers who have been subject to detailed studies in other countries.
Until recently it had not been possible to estimate the proportion of accidents which would not have happened if none of the drivers involved had been drinking, but as a result of studies carried out in Canada, in Czechoslovakia and recently at Grand Rapids in Michigan, accurate estimates can be made. If no one ever drove after drinking, then at least 20,000 casualties could be saved each year. And since we know that 80 per cent. of accidents due to drink are caused by drivers whose blood alcohol level is above the prescribed limit, we can also say that if no one ever broke the new law at least 18,000 casualties could be saved. We recognise that it is perhaps too much to expect that this law will never be broken, but a very similar law introduced in Austria resulted in a reduction by one-third in the number of accidents due to drink. If we apply this
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saving of one-third to the estimated savings in casualties which I have already mentioned, we think that, at the very least, we could save in a year 150 lives, 2,000 serious casualties and 4,000 other casualties. My Lords, this is the minimum. Surely, to avoid at least this toll of lives needlessly lost or shattered it is well worth making the changes in our social habits which this Bill calls for.
I recognise that in the early stages of the operation of the Bill there will be hardship, there will be a sense of anger, and certainly the Minister responsible is not going to add to her popularity because of it. But I would ask the House, and the country, to weigh up this factor. We can all enjoy ourselves at parties and in public houses and the like; we can all take a drink. But we are not forced to take a car to the party, to the public house or to the place of entertainment.
A new sense, a new discipline, is required. It will be an inconvenience, but I hope that the country and those people who will complain will weigh up that moment of inconvenience to them compared to the saving in the first instance of 150 lives, and, perhaps just as important, the saving of those 2,000 seriously injured. We have only to go to our casualty wards to see the shattered bodies that are brought to them. I hope that those people who may complain because their convenience is in some way affected—their pleasures are not; their convenience is—will weigh that up, and I hope the country will co-operate with the authorities in the enforcement and the administration of this Bill. I hope that we who have taken part in the proceedings on this Bill will be able to say that we have taken part in a step that will have a major effect in reducing this terrible toll upon our roads.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Shepherd.)
7.5 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, the figures which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has just given us are most impressive, and confirm as nothing else could the confidence we in this House place on this Bill as a contribution to reducing the incidence of accidents on our roads. As he mentioned, the Bill is all the better for going through this House,

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particularly in terms of Clause 30, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, referred. Now we must wait and see the effectiveness of Part I, and must overcome the difficulties, legal and medical, and the technical difficulties, which are certain to arise from the application of the Bill and the prosecutions thereunder. But the debates at all stages have revealed how as yet the statistics, the basic facts from which we make our deductions, are still imperfect, as therefore the deductions must be.
Although it is clear from what Lord Shepherd said that great advance has been made in the whole approach to the subject within a very short period of time, the vital necessity of thorough research has again been brought to the forefront. I have been tempted to speak, very briefly, at this stage by the announcement in yesterday's papers that the Ministry of Technology has made a grant of £24,000 towards the Motor Industries Research Association. May I express the hope that this will not mean that the Ministry of Transport's support of the Road Research Laboratory will be restricted by the Treasury by a like amount? Rather may it be a spur to the Treasury and to the Ministry to see that the budget for the Road Research Laboratory is entirely adequate to enable it to make full use, absolutely full use, of the skilled manpower and superior facilities at Crowthorne which are shortly coming into operation. I repeat the importance of co-ordinating the research of all the research bodies concerned, whichever they may be—a principle which your Lordships have already recognised.
7.8 p.m.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, may I join with my noble friend Lord Ferrier in asking the Government to step up yet further the resources they put at the disposal of the Road Research Laboratory? More research, more information, will all help the cause which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is advocating of trying to get this message over, and indeed in getting over the whole message of road safety, to the public as a whole. May I begin my few words by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, for his patient and lucid explanation of the range of technical points in the Amendments on the Order
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Paper. In saying farewell to Part II of the Bill, may I send my good wishes with it. It is a useful start in making tighter regulations for goods vehicles, a very difficult field in which to legislate, and I am sure the Government have been wise to proceed by regulation with the utmost flexibility. As the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has said, not only will this give us greater road safety here, but it will probably improve our prospects of exports as well. So I certainly wish the Government well in their development of regulations in this field.
I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for his kind reference to my noble friends and myself for the part we have played in the debates here on this very important Bill—and it is a very important Bill. He rightly claimed that there is nothing between us on the main principle of the Bill. Experience in this country, and indeed in all other countries which have tried to tackle the extremely difficult problem of drink and driving, has led to the conclusion that it is a practical necessity, if drink and driving is to be checked, that there should be a statutory definition of the level of alcohol which amounts to impairment.
We all support the noble Lord and his noble and right honourable friends in the Government in putting this Bill on the Statute Book. I should like to thank the noble Lord for the new statistics which he has given us: they are both impressive and horrifying. We are all aware that these singularly unpleasant fatalities and serious accidents occur because people drink and then drive, and he rightly claims that his target of perhaps a third of the accidents being prevented, if the Austrian experience is repeated here, is a very worthwhile target. I entirely endorse his words. It is certainly a target which is well worth trying for.
During the debates we have had on certain aspects of this innovation there have been some differences of opinion, but I hope the noble Lord is in no doubt that he has my support, and indeed the support of all my noble friends, in putting this Bill into action. In the debates my concern has been only to impress on the Government the drastic nature of the change in the drinking habits of the nation which they are setting out to make,

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and to plead for humanity in administering the new law. I hope that it will not embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, if I say that I believe that the success of the Bill in practice will depend more on the kind of human understanding which he brings to governmental problems than to the missionary zeal which his right honourable friend the Minister of Transport sometimes brings. The police will indeed have a difficult job to do in endeavouring to make this law effective. I have great confidence in the common sense of the police. They are exceedingly experienced, both in the administration of the law and in the frailties of mankind, and can be relied upon to proceed with fairness and with wisdom. Both qualities will certainly be needed to make this legislation effective.
The noble Lord spoke of the possibility of hardship and anger in the case of some of those who may be prosecuted and convicted. But I would remind him that at the end of the day the co-operation of the public must be won, and that the Minister of Transport, while she is absolutely right to stand firm and to put this Bill on the Statute Book, must at the same time win the co-operation of the public if we are ourselves, as a community, to win the greater safety on the roads for which we are all striving.
Finally, while this is an important section of road safety I would point out that it is only a small section of the whole field. We are talking about 6 per cent. of the accidents; the other 94 per cent. have still to be tackled, and at the end of the day we depend on the self-discipline of the average driver. In giving the Government my full support in putting over this extremely important legislation I ask them to redouble their efforts in the rest of the field, because there are many other factors still to be tackled.
7.14 p.m.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, it was not my intention to speak, but I thought the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, might have mentioned something which is very near his heart. I am sure it was an oversight that he did not mention it, and so I propose to do so. This important measure which we all so greatly welcome will interfere with our social habits in this country to a very considerable extent. Therefore I sin-
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cerely hope that there will be an intensive propaganda campaign—or, shall we say, an information campaign?—drawing attention to the changes which are now taking place, in order that we may win and keep that co-operation for which the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford has so rightly asked. For myself I wholeheartedly welcome the Bill. I am pleased with its passage through your Lordships' House.
7.15 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will respond to this debate with only a few words. I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, has said in regard to research and the great importance of the Road Research Laboratory. It is perfectly true that a large number of accidents in which drink is not a factor could be prevented if we knew more about vehicle designing, road construction, and the question of the lighting of our streets and of our vehicles.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, may I add tyres to that list?
LORD SHEPHERD: I agree. There are many aspects about which we need to know a great deal more. I have no figures available, and without notice I have no way of giving a specific assurance to the noble Lord. But I will say this: that in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, said about my right honourable friend, and from what I know of that lady, of her intention and her tenacity of will, I have not the slightest doubt that she will fight to get what she believes is necessary to reduce the accidents on our roads.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, and with my noble friend Lord Popplewell about co-operation and the need for an information campaign. This is one field in which I can say again that I know of the tenacity of my right honourable friend. I think I can say that she is trying to wring the last halfpenny out of the Treasury so that we may have a campaign of such a size and quality that no one will be able to complain that he did not know this Bill had come into force and did not know the implications of it. We shall do what we can, but in the end, as the noble Lord has said, it is what we as motorists, and we as the people, will do. If only we could get people to weigh up

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what is their convenience and what is the cost I have not the slightest shadow of doubt which they would choose.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

SUPERANNUATION (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
7.19 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, it is customary, in asking that a Bill be given its Second Reading, to give some account of its general intention and of the way in which its various parts fit together to achieve its purpose. The purpose of the present Bill is simply to make good a number of deficiencies in the substantial and complex body of legislation which governs the pensions of those in the public services, and, in respect of certain provisions, to give statutory cover for a small number of payments for which no statutory authority exists other than that conveyed by the Appropriation Acts. Those noble Lords who have studied the Bill closely in an endeavour to discern in its provisions some general principle, and have failed to find one, may take comfort from the fact that there is no grand design to be discovered; the aim is a modest one of removing unintended anomalies, and filling certain gaps in the complex structure of public service pensions. It is concerned, that is to say, with what one might term "running repairs".
Unassuming though it is, however, I believe that the Bill is a useful one. If some of its provisions seem of very minor significance in comparison with many of the issues which come before us, noble Lords will need no reminding that to those concerned they may be of real importance. It will be seen from what I have already said that it is not an easy matter to make the usual kind of Second Reading speech on a Bill of this kind. I hope, therefore, that it will not be taken amiss if I speak quite briefly on this occasion and give only a general account of what are in the main a series of detailed and somewhat technical provisions.
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First, as I have already indicated, Clauses 1 and 5 of the Bill give statutory authority for the continuance of payments which have hitherto been made extra-statutorily. There is a longstanding undertaking on the part of the Treasury that they will pay pensions only in accordance with the provisions of the Superannuation Acts. It sometimes happens, however, that circumstances arise in which payments do not fall strictly within the provisions of the Statutes, but in which the withholding of the payments would lead to manifest inequality. In these cases—and they are comparatively rare—it is the practice to make awards which seem fully justified, relying for statutory authority upon the Appropriation Acts. Such cases are, however, regarded as extra-statutory in order to draw attention to them, and if there are sufficient cases of any one kind suitable opportunity is taken to secure statutory authority for the payments.
The Bill also extends the field within which superannuation and related benefits may be paid to public servants. For example, Clause 9 provides for the payment of pensions to full-time presidents or chairmen of industrial tribunals, whilst Clause 14 empowers the Secretary of State for Scotland to grant superannuation benefits in respect of service as a full-time medical commissioner of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.
Gaps of a somewhat different kind are made good by Clause 7, which provides for the application of the terms of the National Health Service Superannuation scheme to people who are in employment concerned with the health services, but who are at present outside the scope of the relevant regulations; by Clause 10, which permits the payment of life pensions to children of deceased contributors to the House of Commons Members Contributory Fund who are incapable of earning a living, because of permanent physical or mental disability; and by Clause 13, which enables the Secretary of State to apply police pension regulations, suitably modified, to police cadets. None of these extensions involve any new point of principle or innovation in practice. The aim is to bring under superannuation cover certain groups of people who in one way or another are at present inadequately provided for and who ought not to be left as the victims

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of gaps in the network of pension arrangements.
The Bill's third main purpose is to plug gaps in the existing legislation dealing with those who serve in two or more appointments in the public sector. Clause 3 and 4 are concerned with certain public service pensioners (former judges and Governors) who are re-employed in the public sector, so that the question arises of the abatement either of the public service pension or of the remuneration of the second appointment.
Other deficiencies in the present arrangements covering staff transferring from one employment to another in the public sector are dealt with in Clause 11. The main changes are to make possible transfer arrangements between the separate superannuation schemes for teachers in England and Wales and in Scotland, to improve the arrangements for transfers to or from police service, and to open the way for greater freedom in the payment of transfer values when there has been a substantial interval between periods of pensionable employment in the public sector by making provision for the payment of interest by the person transferred when he repays any sum received on account of his pension rights in his first employment. The remaining clauses are so miscellaneous in their purpose that they defy any form of classification, and I will not weary noble Lords by referring to each of them in detail.
I hope, however, that what I have said will assist noble Lords to find their way about what I fear is a rather complex and technical Bill. None of its clauses introduces any radical new developments in superannuation practice. This is not the right time to undertake fundamental changes in this field. Nevertheless, I commend the Bill as a valuable contribution to the smooth running of the superannuation arrangements over the public services as a whole. However carefully we try to foresee the just needs of all our public servants, the field is so diverse that it is scarcely surprising that over the years gaps, uncertainties and anomalies are brought to light which, if they are not put right, will gradually undermine confidence in the essential fairness of the various pension schemes concerned. This Bill undertakes some timely repairs and maintenance to keep our house in good
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order. Its provisions have been the subject of consultations with the various staff interests concerned, and I think that I may safely say that they are entirely non-controversial. It will be observed from the Explanatory Memorandum that, apart from Clause 16 (which opens the way for the introduction of new arrangements for the crediting of interest to the teachers' superannuation accounts, and which might cost something of the order of £2½ million to £5 million a year) the net cost of all the provisions in the Bill is unlikely to exceed £60,000 a year.
A Bill of this nature covers a wide and complex field, and I hesitate to claim an intimate grasp of all its detailed technicalities. But if there are points on which noble Lords would welcome further elucidation I shall be glad, with permission, to try to deal with them later in the debate. In the meantime, I hope that I have said sufficient to persuade noble Lords that the Bill is a useful one, and worthy of support. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Bowles.)
7.27 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sure we are all very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, for his very rapid and lucid explanation of what is indeed a very complicated and difficult Bill. I have heard it referred to as a "hotch-potch", a "rag-bag" and even a "dog's dinner", but whatever its description it is certainly an extremely useful measure in that it makes amendments in the light of experience in legislation affecting various superannuation schemes in the public service. In fact I would say that it is a pity that we do not have machinery for the review and amendment of some of our legislation in particular fields more often. So often worthwhile small alterations in the law that arise either through changed circumstances or because Parliament in its wisdom has not foreseen all the possible circumstances, and which may be very desirable changes, are never put into effect because of the lack of time in the legislative programme. I wonder whether those who are interested in Parliamentary reform could not perhaps at some stage produce some sort of machinery, something like the Committee on Consolidation Bills, which could look at legislation some years after it was

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passed, pick out small minor administrative changes that would be desirable, and then incorporate them in some omnibus Bill of this sort. However, in the field of superannuation there have emerged enough difficulties and anomalies to warrant this Bill, and I certainly welcome it.
It is impossible, as the noble Lord has said, to make anything in the way of a Second Reading speech about the Bill, because it consists of a number of different clauses quite independent of each other. I only wish to mention two clauses. The first is Clause 1, which is very welcome. Clearly, there are a number of civil servants serving in overseas territories, often loyally doing their duty in difficult and dangerous circumstances, and it is only right to be quite sure that there is no anomaly about their superannuation provisions. I know that the Statutes have been liberally interpreted, and that there has been no quibble as to whether a particular civil servant was technically on or off duty; but now there can be no doubt about it, and the superannuation provisions are quite clear.
I would refer to Clause 11, which allows a teacher to move from England and Wales to Scotland, or vice versa, without loss of pension rights. This is a very satisfactory clause, and the only thing to which I would draw attention is this. As I understand it, there was an Amendment inserted in another place which enlarged the clause to cover part-time teachers. I hope this means that the Government are getting near the stage of producing a superannuation scheme for part-time teachers, which has been promised a long time. This is essential if we are to get more and more part-time teachers in the schools, and I hope that such a scheme is shortly to be announced. With those few words, I am delighted to support the Second Reading of this Bill.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for what he has said. Although it is difficult to compare consolidation with what he had in mind, I know what he means. Of course, consolidation must never change the law as it exists. I am sure the noble Lord knows that.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TURNHOUSE AIRPORT SECOND RUNWAY
7.31 p.m.
LORD FERRIER LORD FERRIER rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement as to the prospects of having the second runway at Turnhouse Airport completed by 1970. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. This Question has been in the No Day Named list since January 18, but I did not seek an earlier day because, on December 13 last, I had asked a Starred Question about Turn-house Airport buildings and received the following reply:
"A final decision on the site"—
that is, the site of the buildings—
"must await the result of the runway survey which is now being carried out."
I said:
"I assume from that that the final alignment of the runway has not been settled. Is that the case?"
I received a reply:
" My Lords, it has not yet been settled. The result of the survey will be published in February of next year."— [OFFICIAL.REPORT, 13/12/65, col. 1546]
Well, February has come and gone, March has come and gone, April has come and gone—delay, delay, delay.
But delay is no new feature in this matter of the Turnhouse runway. It goes back a decade at least. It is nearly six years since the Toothill Report also pointed attention to the inadequacies of the City's airport. The subject has been mentioned in debate after debate, and Question after Question, not only in your Lordships' House but in another place. I am not blaming this Government alone; I blame their predecessor as well. I think less than nothing of the theme song, "The Thirteen Wasted Years", considering that more than half of that time was spent in tidying up. But I do say that for years policy and forward thinking over Scotland's airports, and precision and energy in planning, have fallen far short of the desideratum.
The main obstacle to efficiency has been the dichotomy of Whitehall and the Secretary of State, and perhaps readiness down here to pooh-pooh Scotland's problems. I say this deliberately and with

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some knowledge, in that I was a member of the Prestwick Airport Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry in 1959, presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Kilmany, when he was in the House of Commons. I was struck during the proceedings of that Commission by the muddle and ineffectiveness of the whole fabric of the system. Overlapping between the Ministry and the Secretary of State had led to mistakes, duplication and delays almost beyond belief. I only hope that over Turnhouse this Government may do a little better.
On March 22 the noble Earl, Lord Perth, in answer to a Question, was informed that four and a half years was the calculated time for the completion of the second runway. I am glad to say that at least one advantage has stemmed from the late hour of this debate—that it has enabled the noble Earl to reach the House after returning from abroad. On April 26 in another place exchanges took place in which the Minister admitted to some surprise at the length of time, four and a half years, indicated for the proposed work. He also said that he was going up to Edinburgh this month—that is, in May—to meet the Corporation. Let us hope that he has better luck than the Lord Provost of Edinburgh when he tried to fly to London with his officials in March to see the Minister on this particular subject. He had to come by train, because of cross-winds on the airfield, and he missed a whole day.
It is, of course, essential that Edinburgh should be consulted. I only wish that I had more confidence in Edinburgh's grasp of her own traffic developments; and I suspect that much of the blame for the Turnhouse situation can be laid at the door of the Edinburgh Corporation. But this airport problem is no longer exclusively Edinburgh's concern. Years ago, before the Forth and Tay bridges were constructed, perhaps it was; but to-day it concerns the entire Eastern half of the central industrial belt. Perth and Dundee are now little further from Turnhouse than Lanark or Peebles. To-morrow, in 1970, it will concern not only Scotland in general, or indeed the whole United Kingdom, but the Commonwealth. I refer, of course, to the Commonwealth Games. Indeed, it is the prospect of the Commonwealth Games in 1970, and all that they imply in terms of
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traffic and prestige, which highlights the urgency of the matter—and the matter is urgent.
In April a Written Answer to the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, produced the recent figures of diversions because of cross-winds. The noble Earl would have been here to speak to-day but for an important engagement in Scotland. I do not propose to go into the delays and dangers of the diversions due to crosswinds, to which other speakers will doubtless refer. I only remind your Lordships that thousands of passengers, and people and transport which go to meet and convey them, are inconvenienced and put to great expense by these diversions.
It must also be remembered that outward flights have to be cancelled and delayed or transferred to Glasgow; and further—I think this was a point which was made on another occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn—there are times when planes can only take off with restricted loads, with the inconvenience which flows from such an occurrence. All this means cancelled bookings and the non-availability of seats. And besides, some people have simply given up the thought of using the air service to and from Edinburgh because of its unreliability. Business people cannot afford to take a risk of cancelled appointments or frustrated meetings, such, shall we say, as the Lord Provost of Edin-burgh suffered the other day.
This problem of the cost to the Scottish economy of the inferior air service is well set out in the Toothill Report. But, quite apart from losses to the airlines and the cost to Scottish business, it is no wonder that the airlines themselves complain of the poor load factor. How can a modern service pay in these conditions? No wonder they seek higher fares. What is more, current traffic and financial results are simply not relevant as a basis for estimating the potentialities of a route such as this one, as they would be if Scotland's capital had a capital airport.
It is right to say that the Edinburgh airport in its present form, and with its absence of proper radar equipment, is so tricky that the airline captains have to be "cleared for Edinburgh", as they call it, before they can be allowed to bring

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a machine in there. After all, the alignment of the present runway has the steep end of the Pentland Hills in line with one end of the runway, and the two Forth Bridges in line with the other. I had it in mind to refer also to the airport buildings in their relation to the railway, but I do not propose to do so in view of the lateness of the hour. But if the noble Lord would care to discuss the matter with me afterwards, I think I have some information which may be of service to him.
I have made no reference to what is undoubtedly the most important factor of all; namely, the airfield requirements of the civil aircraft of tomorrow. I do so deliberately only because I know that this will be the burden of the contribution of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye to this debate. His long experience and extreme competence on the subject is well known to your Lordships. As for the cost of the runway, it has been hinted in this House that the money might be better spent elsewhere or in other ways. But is it realised that the present situation is enormously costly to the community as a whole at this very moment of time, as I hope I have shown in what I have already said? The airlines find the service a loser, but the public would use it if it were efficient. The traffic would be there if the service were efficient. The diversions cost incalculable sums. But for the skill and confidence of the pilots there would be many more diversions. Indeed, but for their skill the risk of some costly catastrophe would be a real one. It is ridiculous that a technically exacting and rapidly expanding industry like the air transport industry should be hamstrung on this important route as it is at present.
This serious matter requires prompt action. The broad decision to get on with another runway is an easy one. So far as I know (in the absence of any statement such as we were promised) there is only one possible alignment for the new runway. But of course it would be foolish to say that the implementing of such a decision is going to be easy. Far from it. The complexities—ranging from public inquiry and land acquisition through the realignment of the A9 main road to the diversion of the Gogar Burn—are formidable, and anybody with any
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knowledge of these things cannot do otherwise than sympathise with the Minister, especially—and I emphasise this—when superimposed upon it all must come some sort of settlement with Edinburgh Corporation. But to say that it must take four and a half years is nonsense. It could easily take more if the present "non-momentum" is maintained. But with firm purpose—which includes a settlement, once and for all, with Edinburgh Corporation—with energy and precision, it could take less. It could be done in time for the Commonwealth Games in 1970. It is quite wrong to say that there is no urgency, as this debate I believe will show. I should like to thank noble Lords who intend to speak (as I shall have no other opportunity, this being an Unstarred Question) and I look forward to the Minister's reply. I only wish that the promised statement could have been made, if only to have saved me from taking up your Lordships' time.
7.45 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, payload and regularity are the key words for the success of operating any civil airline, and payload and regularity are also the key words applicable to Edinburgh Airport, if it is to play its part in the British civil aviation system. Edinburgh Airport has the worst diversion record of any airport in the United Kingdom. The cross-wind situation is going to get worse in future. As noble Lords probably know, certain regulations are laid down as to when an aircraft may land with a cross-wind of a certain strength—what is technically called the cross-wind component. The cross-wind component is calculated according to the length of runway, in that an aircraft must be able to land within the cross-wind component allowing for a 12-knot tail-wind. That is all right for Viscounts and Vanguards, but now the Comet is coming into service in Edinburgh, and the runway is only just big enough to take the Comet; and the Trident will be going into Edinburgh in due course, and the same applies in regard to that aircraft. Therefore, those aircraft must have the cross-wind component reduced because the runway is not long enough to allow them to land with a 12-knot tail-wind. It is appalling—and I use the word advisedly—that we should contemplate putting splendid new

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types of British civil aircraft on to our main domestic routes, such as Edinburgh and Glasgow, and know that we shall have to operate them with a financial load penalty because the runway is not sufficiently big to take the full capacity at which they are capable of operating.
On the matter of cost, last year about half a million passengers who flew to Edinburgh faced the possibility of a diversion and a dislocation of their journey because of the high incidence of diversion from several causes. Based on the annual capital charge of what is needed to put Edinburgh Airport right, I think it works out at about 9s. per passenger; and with the gloomy time scale which the Government have given us of approximately 5 years to make this new runway, and allowing for an increase of traffic, this 9s. per passenger might well be halved. That, surely, is not an unreasonable amount to pay to get rid of the risk, about which the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, spoke, to all passengers flying to and from Edinburgh, and from such incidents as that from which the Lord Provost suffered quite recently. If it is a fact that four-and-a-half years are going to be required from the time of decision to go ahead, I would say: give the decision now. I know of the negotiations between Her Majesty's Government and the Edinburgh authorities, but somebody is going to pay at some time or other, so why not get on with the job now and let the settlement come within the ambit of the negotiations?
I have one more point before I sit down in relation to a matter which is tied up with the runway, and that is radar. I believe it is the view of the Department that radar is not necessary. If that is so, I would take issue with the Department. Any airport handling half a million passengers should have radar assistance. It is interesting to note that Turnhouse has more aircraft movements than Glasgow because of the large number of private and small aircraft operating in and out of the airport. Therefore, there is a big problem in the traffic pattern in regard to the mixing of large civil scheduled airliners and these other civil aircraft. Turnhouse is responsible for the safety of half a million persons, and I believe that, coupled with the project for the new runway, there must be radar installation. My final word is this. Of
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course, new terminal buildings are nice things to have; but before you go about getting new terminal buildings you should attempt to make the airport suitable for taking modern types of aircraft in order to achieve the maximum safety obtainable.
7.49 p.m.
LORD KILMANY: My Lords, very few people are more qualified to speak in such a debate as this than my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye, with his knowledge as a pilot in the First World War, his knowledge as an Air Minister in the Second World War, and, finally, as an ex-director of British European Airways. He is therefore well briefed in all his facts. I do not think that anybody who has listened to my noble friend's speech, and to the opening speech of my noble friend Lord Ferrier, can be in any doubt that it is a fact, and a sorry fact, that Edinburgh, the Capital City of Scotland, does not have a first-class aerodrome. It seems to me that that is a state of affairs which no one on either side of your Lordships' House who comes from Scotland should be prepared to tolerate. It is bad for the status of Scotland, bad for the trade of Scotland, bad for our tourism, bad for our self-respect; and, in truth, it is bad for our tempers, too.
It is intolerable that we should have to put up with diversions again and again; and as my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye said, we at Turnhouse have the worst diversion record of any airport in the United Kingdom. To me it is amazing that Governments have been prepared to tolerate so little progress being made, and to show so little urgency in this matter. As my noble friend Lord Ferrier said, on December 13 the Minister replying for the Government said that there was to be a survey as to the siting of the second runway, and that the result would be published in February this year. We are now in May. What has been happening during those months between December and now?
We have had figures of flights cancelled at Turnhouse Aerodrome. In March, 62 flights were cancelled; in February there were 54, and in January, 12. One would have thought that such figures as this would have been a spur to action, and that we should have been

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given the survey sooner rather than later. But, no. The survey is not yet at hand, though it may be that the noble Lord who is to reply this evening will be able to give us welcome news about it. I hope that may be so.
Let me not waste time at this hour of the night. It must be agreed that the facts in favour both of a longer runway and of a second runway are overwhelming. I should like to make clear that I am not basing my case purely on what one reads in papers, but on the experience which almost all of us who use this service have had. It was not just in the couple of months when the crosswinds were particularly prevalent that we found ourselves diverted. Just before that time I, like many others, found myself diverted from Turnhouse away to Abbotsinch. And when we got to Abbotsinch was there another aircraft waiting to take us on? Oh, no! There was not. On the contrary, we had to sit and wait until an aircraft was collected and manned, although one would have thought that a call on the telephone, with up to two hours to get the other aircraft prepared, would have been an obvious step.
The other experience I had—and I mention only the two—was a fortnight ago, going North from London to Turn-house. We were due in at about 6 o'clock and were doing rather well. We were within ten minutes of landing when the captain spoke on the loudspeaker: "This is the captain speaking. We are having slight difficulty with one of our flaps, and I have decided that Turn-house runway is not entirely suitable for landing in these conditions. So I propose to change course and land in Manchester instead"—which he did. As a result, we eventually arrived at Turn-house fully three hours late. I do not for a moment blame the captain, and I am sure that he was very wise. But I do blame the Government for tolerating an aerodrome which cannot accept even small emergencies. On that occasion nobody minded very much. It is incredible to me how tolerant passengers are. Their fortitude is commendable, and they accept inconvenience without a murmur. One almost thinks it would be better if we became more indignant
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and made our indignation felt.
The only time that I can recall anyone getting excited in an aeroplane was on that simplest of all flights from London to Edinburgh after we had boarded the plane. We were all snuggling into our seats looking forward to something to eat, and reading the Evening Standard, when the air hostess said to us in dulcet tones, "We welcome you aboard our Vanguard aircraft and should be leaving for Glasgow in a few minutes' time." That had a very disconcerting effect on all of us, because our tickets were to Edinburgh and our plans were to go to Edinburgh. One turned to the other and said, "Look here. You are going to Edinburgh, aren't you?" The other replied, "Yes, I am going to Edinburgh, but the girl said Glasgow." There was much concern. Happily it was found that she had made a mistake in the names of those two important towns. But, seriously, this is a scandal and it requires urgent action.
I believe that the only person who can take that action is the Secretary of State for Scotland. I know the dichotomy of responsibility and I know that Edinburgh Corporation come into it. But, after all, we have had an example of a vigorous Secretary of State dealing with a more or less comparable need for Scotland, when we required a Road Bridge over the Forth. My noble friend Lord Stuart of Findhorn, who was then James Stuart, listened to all of us in the East of Scotland and all of us in the Edinburgh area. He had us behind him and he knew it; and he went to the Cabinet and declined to take "No" for an answer. Cannot the present Secretary of State follow that example. I believe that if he does he will have not only the East of Scotland, but all of Scotland behind him in urging for action at Turnhouse aerodrome. Let him show us that he, too, can lead.
7.58 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I shall not give your Lordships any of my harrowing experiences, because I am not so graphic in description as the noble Lord, Lord Kilmany. But I assure you that he has not overstated his case in any way whatsoever; and the incidents he related can be multiplied a hundredfold. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, emphasised the importance of regularity on an air service, and when the alternative

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train service takes only six hours the importance of regularity becomes even greater. If you have to plan to be down in London for a meeting and have to allow three hours for the not unusual (I was going to say normal) delay, you may as well make your journey by train. Until that situation is overcome, and a more regular service is running, there will not be a full capacity of passengers on the flight to Edinburgh. There is no doubt that once there is regularity the number of passengers will greatly increase.
The noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, to whom we are very grateful for putting down this Question, spoke of the pilots on the Edinburgh route being specially picked. They have to be selected and they have to be experienced on the Edinburgh runway. I believe that the reason why so many diversions of Comets have been made in recent months is that the pilots are still gaining experience of the runway. Once they have more experience there will be fewer diversions of Comets. We hope that there will be a sufficiency of pilots trained to service these Comets coming into Edinburgh.
The noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, talked about the Commonwealth Games in 1970. Will the pilots of these Commonwealth planes have to be trained on the Edinburgh runway? Why should those flights be exposed to the dangers of this particular runway? Or is this perhaps just a device to ensure that everybody coming to the Commonwealth Games has to pass through London and be flown on from London in a plane piloted by a pilot who has experience of the Edinburgh runway?
With our climate on the East Coast of Scotland, and with those haars coming up from the sea, we must have provision for blind landings. A blind landing can never be made on the present runway—that is quite impossible. Looking forward to the future (and I say this in deference to the judgment of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, not being an airman myself), if we can expect that all major airports will be equipped to take blind landings, then the sooner the Edinburgh runway is put into a state to take blind landings the better.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilmany, has taken out of my mouth the words about the tribulations of getting the Forth Road Bridge under way. The number of excuses and evasions that were given in
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the initial stages of pressing for the Forth Road Bridge are very like the number of evasions and excuses that have been given over recent years about the impossibility almost of getting a proper runway established. A decent, safe runway is certainly going to be installed at Turnhouse. Why not get on with the job now?
8.3 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I rise for only one moment to plead with the Government not only to listen to the case which has been put forward so powerfully, and with such a wealth of convincing evidence, by my noble friends, but also to act upon it. I do not suppose there is any Member of your Lordships' House who has so much experience as the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, of what I would call the Whitehall "bureau-monster". That is a term which I am borrowing from the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin of Bewdley—and a very good term it is, I think. The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, spent many years fighting against this monster in order to get the Tay Road Bridge built a little more quickly—or, indeed, built at all, because they did not think it should be built. He was eventually successful. There is no one who understands better than he does the nature and habits of the monster, which are chiefly imperception, imperviousness to argument and automatic repetition of old, traditional, out-of-date answers. Its chief talent, I think, is the presentation of what Sir Winston Churchill described as "the padded cells of indubitable fact and the solid masonry of unanswerable objection," which one is always brought up against when one makes any useful proposal to this blinkered bureau-monster.
Now that Government activity is permeating so much into nearly every compartment of our lives, I think this is a very serious thing, because in so far as the monster has any mind at all it is a metropolitan mind. It cannot understand the needs of Scotland or of Wales, or even of the more distant English Provinces. That is probably the main reason—it is certainly one reason—for the big increase in the Nationalist vote in Scotland and elsewhere which we have recently witnessed, both in Parliamentary and in local elections. Some people may think that a good thing; but it is not a

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good thing that the growth of nationalism should be so much stimulated, as it is, by the neglect and the delay of things which ought to be done. It is holding up our development area policy, upon which we are all agreed, and also our policy on dispersal, upon which we are all agreed.
In towns like Edinburgh businessmen and professional men are in their offices working at 9 o'clock in the morning, and they do a full day's work. In London it is almost impossible for either managers or staff to get there until 10 o'clock, and then they have to leave an hour early in order that they may get to bed in time to get up early enough to get them in at a reasonable time, and not in the middle of the morning. What a tremendous waste of industrial potential and efficiency this is! In order to correct these things we must get better, more efficient, transport in this island, and it really is indefensible, I think, that while we are discussing whether we should have a third or a fourth airport for the Capital of England the Capital of Scotland has not even one that can be called a decent airport.
My Lords, last week, when a Question was asked on this subject in another place, the Minister first replied that it was out of the question to get this second runway in time for the Commonwealth Games in 1970, but later there seemed to be a gleam of hope, because he expressed surprise at the estimate of his own officials. He promised to look into American methods of construction which had been brought to his notice, and said that he was going to Edinburgh next month. I appeal to the Edinburgh Corporation not to put any obstacles in the way of getting this thing done quickly (because it is so much to the interests of their city as well as to Scotland that this should be done) and also to the Government to look very critically indeed at the official estimates which they are being given. Because, my Lords, this thing can be done if the Government will take the political decision to give it the necessary priority. Priority is what is required. The thing can be done long before 1970. I would appeal to the Government now to look at the evidence, to decide to give the work the necessary priority and to carry out the required action within the necessary time.
8.9 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am going to speak very briefly. We have all heard one Government after another plead that this is not an economic thing to do, and that the traffic is not there. But we have heard again tonight that this argument is one that does not bear examination. We do not know that the traffic is not there, because anybody who wants to go to Edinburgh and who has to be certain of getting there by a specified time does not go by plane but by train. We just do not know what the traffic would be if there were the certainty of getting there at the time desired.
My Lords, if the argument to be used is that it is not an economic thing to do at the present time, I suspect (and listening particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, I feel confirmed in this) that in five years time a Government will be able to say this with even greater justification. Because in five years time the better planes that we have heard about will not be able to go in on any economic basis at all. While the British services will do something, the hope of getting the Continental services to risk going into Edinburgh with some of the better planes they have will be remote. They just will not do it. The Government will then be able to say: "It is not economic to do it now"; and so it will go on. This really is a disgraceful situation for Edinburgh, the Capital of Scotland.
My Lords, the other thing which struck me, and struck me very hard, as I listened to the debate is the real risk associated with this flight, as other noble Lords have pointed out, and the fact that pilots must be specially trained for it. I pray that it will not happen, but I have an awful feeling in my mind that one of these days there may be a great disaster on the airport—and then some action will be taken. I appeal to the Government to avoid such a risk; I appeal to them to move now, having heard all that has been said.
Let us look at what normally happens in London. London is the Capital of England. The other day it was proposed that £65 million should be spent on building a short underground railway extension—and it is not as if it will be economic. We all know the subsidy that London Transport receives from the

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Government. Yet they are planning more building, and no doubt the Government will give way. Why? I suppose they think that vote-wise—and I am not blaming this Government more than any other—it may have a great appeal to a great number of people. This is not a good argument. We have seen the rise of the Scottish feelings on this matter—I join with all other noble Lords in begging the Government to move and to move now.
8.13 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I must say that I rise with a great deal of trepidation, faced as I am by the cohorts of noble Lords from Scotland; although I am helped in this by the support of my noble friend from Scotland beside me. I cannot help feeling that he might have dealt far more effectively than I with some of the points raised. But let me first of all try to answer the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, concerning the survey which last December my noble friend Lord Rhodes said would be published in February.
I think there may be some slight misunderstanding over the exact term "published". What in fact my noble friend meant at that time was that the Report would be ready and available to those concerned. It is a very long and voluminous technical Report which could not be published as a White Paper in the normal way. In fact, the final draft of the Report was ready, as my noble friend said, in February, and the content of it was communicated to Edinburgh Corporation. It was received by the Government in its final form on April 24. So I think I can say that my noble friend is vindicated, in that February was the time when the guts of the Report were made available to those most concerned, the Edinburgh Corporation.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, the fact is that the word "published" was used. I cannot be blamed, and neither can others, if we awaited its appearance with bated breath. The word "published" was used.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I do not blame the noble Lord at all for thinking that "published" meant the more
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normal use of the word; that it would be available in the Printed Paper Office.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, my point is that had I understood it so I would have put down this Question earlier.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, a good many points have been raised by various noble Lords and all of them, I say quite frankly, are accurate. There has been, so far as I know, no mis-statement of fact at all in what was said. But I believe there has been a great deal of misapprehension, and people who listened to these statements may have got the wrong impression of what is the actual position. For instance, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, spoke of the real risks which are run by passengers who land at Turnhouse. I am sure that he does not really mean to suggest that passengers flying in from London to Turnhouse run any greater risk than those flying into London from Manchester, or into London from Glasgow, or into London from Paris, or into London from Washington. I think it would be unfortunate if the impression arose that Turnhouse was a dangerous airport at which to land. Its safety record—
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, may I ask why the pilots have to be specially trained?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I was just coming to that point. The safety record of Turnhouse is as good as that of any airport in the United Kingdom. I want to make that very clear. It is true, of course, that pilots have to be specially trained or, at least, have to have special landing practice at Turnhouse Airport. But that is the normal practice of all good airlines, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, will agree. One does not take a pilot who has never before landed in Brussels, in Cairo or in Istanbul, and send him off with a plane load of passengers and tell him to land there. He has practice landings in unloaded aircraft in order to get used to local conditions. That happens at Turnhouse.
Although the statements made were correct, the impressions given were most unfortunate. I hope that they will be corrected in the minds of noble Lords,

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and in the minds of those who have listened to this debate and who will read it. I do not for a moment deny that, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, the key words for success at Turnhouse are "regularity and payload". It is a fact that the airport needs improvement. Improvement is costly, but it will be carried out; there is no doubt about that. The only questions are: when will it be carried out? When will it be economic for it to be carried out? When will it be practicable for it to be carried out?
I have great sympathy, as an air traveller myself, with any passengers, be they noble Lords or not, who board an aeroplane and find themselves landing at some place other than their expected destination, or who go to an airport hoping to take off at a scheduled time and find that they have to wait a couple of hours. I am not unsympathetic to that, and I do not deny that it happens. The question is not whether the improvements shall take place, but when they shall take place.
The only way I can answer this question properly is to describe, as best I can, the situation at Turnhouse Airport at the present time. The main runway, which is 6,000 feet in length, unfortunately is sited—and the original reason for this I do not know—at an angle of 70 degrees to the prevailing wind. Therefore, for a great deal of the time it cannot safely be used. Instead, the subsidiary runway, virtually facing into the wind—that is, in the correct direction—has to be used. But that is only 3,400 feet in length.
Let me, at this stage, correct another factually correct statement but one which is somewhat misleading. I do not deny (I do not know the figure exactly, but I accept it from the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye) that Turnhouse has a greater rate of diversion that any other airport in the United Kingdom; but it is most misleading to suggest that the rate of diversion is due to cross-winds.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I did not suggest that.
LORD WALSTON: No, my Lords, the noble Lord did not suggest that; but the impression, I think, might have been gathered by some people who listened to him (I am sure he did not mean to give
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that impression) that the majority of these diversions, at least, were due to crosswinds. In fact only about one-sixth of the total diversions are due to cross-winds. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, is shaking his head, but those are the statistical figures over the last two years, and one must not take simply one month or two months, or a particular week, when looking at this from an economic point of view and a sound point of view. One must see what is the figure over a general period of time.
That being so the fact that only 0·7 per cent. of flights are diverted because of cross-winds means that even were the runway to be lengthened or altered, as noble Lords are advocating, there would still be a great majority of diversions. Lengthening the runway into the prevailing wind would put an end to only a small proportion—one-sixth—of the total number of diversions.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is quoting up-to-date figures, or are those figures only to the end of last year? We have had a very bad experience in the last two months.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I know that the last two months have been bad. My figures are for the years 1964 to 1966, over a long period, and during that time there have been bad periods and good periods. I know, and the noble Earl knows perfectly well, because he asked a Question which I answered, that during February, I think it was, the number of diversions was extremely high, and many of them were due to cross-winds.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that if there are so many diversions, it is vitally important that we should be able to take in blind landings?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, that is another point I was just about to come to, and perhaps I should deal with it now if it is the wish of noble Lords. Radar control is undoubtedly needed. I am not sufficient of an expert to know how much the proposed radar control, and the radar control which is being asked for, would cope with that type of blind landing. I suspect that it would cope with only a few such landings. Its main object would be, as I understand

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it, to cope with the density of traffic above the airfield, and not to bring aircraft in to land in times of extremely poor visibility.
It was also, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, who told us that Turnhouse had more air movement than Glasgow; and that is perfectly true. The figures are, for Turnhouse approximately 50,000 last year, and Glasgow 37,000. But once again these figures are to some extent misleading, because they include all forms of flying, a very large amount of which relates to light aircraft from flying clubs, and so on. If you take the airliner movements, or air transport movements—and these are the ones which arc most important from the flight control aspect of safety control—you will find that Turnhouse has 10,000 compared with 31,000 for Glasgow.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I think that the Minister may not have got that quite right. Radar is required in order that you can sort out the pattern as to what aircraft are where. Whether they are little aircraft, privately owned or airliners does not really matter. In fact, because there are more movements at Turnhouse I think the demand for radar is just as strong there as at Glasgow.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, with the greatest respect I would disagree with the noble Lord in that matter. Of course it is necessary to sort out all the aircraft: that is perfectly true. But the important difficulty in the control of aircraft coming in to land is not caused by the small flying club aircraft, which is under radio control from the control tower and takes off when it is considered safe to do so, does a circuit and lands again. The scheduled airliner comes in, maybe, from above the clouds and may arrive at varying times. Therefore it is a much more difficult problem for the control tower to look after that kind of aircraft. Again I am not arguing that this is not necessary: it is necessary; and I hope that this is a matter where the Government can act perhaps more quickly than in other matters.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, can the Minister look into those figures again? It is not that the aircraft are not scheduled aircraft, but private aircraft from flying
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clubs. The Ferranti undertaking in Edinburgh have one, if not two, of their own planes, and I have never been to Edinburgh Airport when I have not seen a Dove, or some other type of aircraft, often from overseas. A great many of the aircraft on non-scheduled flights are business aircraft.
LORD WALSTON: I do not for a moment say that these aircraft are only from flying clubs. A very large proportion of them are not. I am afraid that I cannot tell the noble Lord what is the proportion between those and the other sort. I will see if the figures can be found, because they would certainly be of interest and value in this discussion.
My Lords, if I may come back to the main problem of the two runways, there is the one main runway, which is 6,000 feet long and is at the wrong angle—70 degrees off. Then we have the 3,400 foot runway, which is correctly angled. That one, I think we all agree, cannot be extended. The only way to build a new runway at the correct angle with the prevailing wind would be by an entirely new layout, which would necessitate cutting the A9 road. That can he cut only when a new motorway or some alternative route is completed. That is the limiting factor in building this entirely new runway. The present schedule leads one to expect that it will be possible to cut the A9 in 1973.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me for interrupting, but surely it does not cost a fortune to build an underpass.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, it would not cost a fortune, but it would add very considerably to the cost. And when, in any case, the road is going to be abolished within a matter of years, I think that most noble Lords, with their minds on the need to reduce public expenditure, and on economy and on value for money and all the rest of it, would say that that would not be a worthwhile expenditure. Therefore I do maintain, without prejudicing the decision, that prima facie there is a case for saying that until that part of the A9 has been superseded by a motorway, and therefore could be cut, the main runway of an appropriate length cannot be built, except at an exorbitant cost.

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That leaves us, my Lords, with the existing runway of 3,400 feet, which we all agree cannot be used during crosswinds, and the other runway, the main runway of the airport, of 6,000 feet, which could be lengthened—there is no question about that. It could easily be extended by 950 feet towards the south-east. It would then be adequate for the Trident III, and the BAC 111–500, but not always under a full load, because that would give only just under 7,000 feet—to be precise, 6,950 feet. The further 1,000 feet which could be put on to that runway, and which would make it adequate for the Tridents, and so on, under more or less normal flying conditions, again would have to cross the A9. So once more we are held up by the existence of the A9.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but do I understand him to say that there is no question of anything being done, except a small lengthening. until the A9 has disappeared; and that since work on that will not start until 1973 it will be ten years, on the basis of the other four and a half years for the construction, before we can expect a decent runway in Edinburgh? Is that what I am to understand?
LORD WALSTON: No, my Lords, that is not what the noble Earl is to understand. I must say that every question I have been asked so far has asked something to which I was just about to come, if I had not been interrupted. I am happy to stay here as long as your Lordships like and give way, but your Lordships will get satisfaction to the full limit of my knowledge by allowing me to continue with the minimum of interruptions.
I did not say that we should have to wait until 1973 before we could start doing anything. The present plan, still under discussion, is that the new runway and all the preliminaries of planning and the acquisition of land should be geared to the final finishing date of 1973, so that when the A.9 is eventually superseded by the motorway and can then be cut, we shall have the runway completed except for a small piece which can be done in a very short time. So if this
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plan is adhered to, there will be a complete runway in the right direction in 1973. It is always possible to extend the existing main runway, not only by 950 ft. to the south-east, but by a further 1,000 ft. across the A.9, if an alternative road is produced either by an underpass, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Somers, or by means of enlarging an existing small road going through a village. These are expensive matters and my honourable friend the Minister of State, Board of Trade, is going to Edinburgh within the next week to discuss this with the Edinburgh Corporation.
The small extension to the main runway which can be carried out will never be able to counteract the effect of crosswinds, but it will allow modern aircraft to land a good deal of the time, though it will not give a 100 per cent. service. These apparent delays, due to the "bureau monster", have in my view been not unreasonable. I know that the noble Earl, Lord Perth, said that until there are good runways good aircraft will not be using Turnhouse. The B.E.A. is the main commercial user, and until their plans for their new aircraft are finalised—they are getting close to that but are not there yet, and I am not blaming B.E.A. for not getting their finalisation forward—we shall not know definitely what types of aircraft are going to fly to Turnhouse.
I hope that when the time comes for us to discuss Government expenditure and we are being pressed to reduce it, noble Lords who have urged us to increase Government expenditure on this matter will come to the House and convince some of their noble friends that there are occasions, as has been so eloquently said, when Government expenditure may be in the interests, if not of the people in the South of England, then in the interests of the people in the North of Great Britain.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the existing runway at Turnhouse is not of sufficient width to take the aircraft contemplated in future, or even aircraft coming in under radar control? So the extension of the existing runway is hardly even a palliative.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, it may be that in addition to extending the runway there has to be a widening; but compared with the other things we have been talking about, that is a relatively simple matter.

SAINT MARY-LE-PARK, BATTERSEA BILL
Reported, without amendment.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before nine o'clock.