Sitting of 1 May 1967

Preamble
The House met at Ten o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

TRADE UNIONS DUES BILL
10.5 a.m.
Mr. Anthony Grant: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide that all application forms for membership of a trade union shall specifically refer to the right of the applicant not to pay a political levy to the union; and for purposes connected therewith
This Bill does not seek to stop payment of a political levy although, so far as I am aware, Britain is the only industrial nation in the free world which carries on what I regard as a foolish practice. It does not even seek to compel contracting in as opposed to contracting out. It is merely a modest, small but important reform, designed to ensure that people joining trade unions, usually both compulsorily and in their own interests, clearly understand where the dues that they pay go to.
In the vast majority of cases trade union members are not even aware that they are paying a political levy. As the law stands, union rules concerning a political fund have to be approved by
2
the Registrar. The rules can be obtained by a member if he asks for them, but he will usually find that they run into over a hundred pages of not particularly attractive prose, and in some cases the union rules say that a form of exemption notice
"… shall be published in such a manner, whether in the union's journal or report or otherwise, as notices are usually given by the union or its branches to its members, and the secretary of each branch will take steps to secure that every member of the branch, so far as practicable receives a copy of such notice …"
or some similar wording.
In practice the initiative is always left to the individual who usually experiences considerable difficulty in obtaining copies of the contracting-out form. He is rather like the traveller on the railways who sees on his ticket the words "For conditions see reverse", and on the reverse he finds that it says that the conditions can be obtained from the railway office. If he goes there he finds that the clerk has gone to lunch, and by the time the clerk returns the train has gone.
Relatively few of the unions maintaining political funds make mention of the political levy on their application forms. The forms include details of the dues payable, but in many cases the amount stated as contribution includes the political levy. Practice varies in different cases. The National Union of Mine-workers makes the point perfectly clear. The T.G.W.U., the N.U.G.M.W., the E.T.U. and D.A.T.A. among others make

3
no reference to the political levy and a new applicant, if he thinks about it at all, does not know whether it is included in the contribution. If it were made a statutory obligation upon unions to incorporate the contracting-out form in the application in the first instance and to draw attention to the applicant's rights, he would at least know where he stood.
The modern trend in society is towards protecting people by greater and more accurate disclosure. There is the Hire Purchase Act, 1964, the Misrepresentation Act, and the labelling of food and drink legislation. In addition there is the work of the Consumer Council, and now we have the Companies Bill wending its way through Committee. This is a thoroughly desirable trend, but the question is posed: why should the Labour Party be immune from it? If trade union membership is so inextricably entwined with the Labour Party, and if trade unionists are so consumed with love and affection for the Labour Government, then they will have no need to be afraid to call attention to the right to contract out, because applicants will joyously disregard the warning. If, on the other hand, the Government and the trade unions fear that if this right were known more generally it would be more often exercised, this is a pretty poor reflection on the confidence of the Government in our industrial workers—indeed on the confidence of industrial workers in the Government. The truth is that more and more trade unionists are becoming thoroughly disillusioned with the Labour Government and their economic policy of stagnation. Particularly are they disillusioned with the notorious Prices and Incomes Act, which strikes at the funda-
4
mental trade union principles of free bargaining and the sanctity of contract. More and more would contract out if the right to do so was not so wrapped in a miasma of obscurity.
The only conceivable argument which I believe can be advanced against the Bill is to suggest that it be left until the Royal Commission has reported, whenever that may be. But precedent is against this argument, because the Government did not allow this to worry them when they brought in the notorious Trade Disputes Act, 1965, which made fundamental and direct changes in the law and granted trade unions an entirely fresh privilege over their fellow members.
Frankness and honesty of purpose are qualities much vaunted by hon. Members opposite and by many of us. Therefore, I submit that they should practise what they preach and give support to the proposed Bill, which seeks to throw a little light on one of the rather more murky corners of our industrial and political life.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant, Sir E. Brown, Mr. Iremonger, Mr. David Mitchell, and Mr. John Page.

TRADE UNIONS DUES BILL
  TRADE UNIONS DUES BILL
  Bill to provide that all application forms for membership of a trade union shall specifically refer to the right of the applicant not to pay a political levy to the union; and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed. [Bill 247.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  LIVE HARE COURSING (ABOLITION) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: The debate upon which we are entering cuts across party lines. There are supporters and opponents of the proposed Bill on both sides of the House. I shall endeavour to secure a balanced debate.
  10.13 a.m.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The first thing which I wish to do is to thank the Lord President of the Council for allowing Parliamentary time for the Bill. The Government receive not only my personal thanks and those of the sponsors of the Bill, but the thanks of countless thousands of people from all walks of life and from every part of the country.
  I realise that many Members are somewhat annoyed because the Bill has been given time as against others. I sympathise with them, but hope that it will not colour their attitude to the Bill. I trust that the Bill will be considered on its merits and not opposed by anyone for reasons which have nothing to do with the issue before us.
  A number of attempts have been made to abolish the coursing of live hares. In 1925, a Bill to prohibit the coursing of hares and rabbits got through its Committee stage, but, unfortunately, failed to secure a Third Reading through lack of Parliamentary time. On 25th February, 1949, Mr. Seymour Cocks moved the Second Reading of the Protection of Animals (Hunting and Coursing Prohibition) Bill. A debate took place, but the Bill failed owing to Government opposition, possibly because it was too wide in its scope. Therefore, the fact is that 42 years ago this House almost abolished live hare coursing but failed to do so due to lack of Parliamentary time. I believe that it would be a tragedy if a similar situation were to develop in this Session.
  In his speech introducing the Bill, Mr. Seymour Cocks said—and I believe that this is worth quoting:
  "We in this country are not a cruel race. We always pride ourselves on our love for
  6
  animals. However, this love for animals which characterises our people is of very modern growth. Just over 100 years ago there was very little love for animals in this land. Horrible cruelties were perpetrated on animals in the early part of last century and there was no law to prevent them. Cats were skinned alive for the sake of their fur, bears and badgers were baited, dogs were matched against monkeys and fought each other to the death and bull baiting was a national sport and was defended in the House of Commons …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1949, Vol. 461, c. 2168–9.]
  It is a sign of our democratic strength as a nation that even at this moment, when the country is being asked to consider momentous decisions, time can be found for Parliament to decide whether the coursing of live hares should be abolished.
  The Bill, as I said in the speech when I introduced it, is very simple. The Explanatory Memorandum reads as follows:
  "The purpose of the Bill is to prohibit hare coursing of a particular kind, namely where steps are taken to bring two or more dogs and a hare within sight of each other and the dogs are only then released for pursuit with a view to a comparison being made of the respective coursing abilities of those dogs."
  It has been suggested by friends and foes of the Bill alike that it does not go far enough. Hon. Members who feel that can, if they so desire, put down a number of Amendments to strengthen the Bill even further. But that would not be my view. I think that we have to deal with this one issue at this time. It is right that we should do it in this way. Therefore, in a sense, the Bill is restrictive in nature. It has only two Clauses and therefore is extremely short. It is designed only to do what it says and cannot be interpreted in any other way.
  Let me define what coursing is, as I did on 31st January on First Reading. Again, I quote from the publication issued by the National Coursing Club, "The Truth about Coursing", which says:
  "Coursing is a sport of testing the merits of two greyhounds in their competitive pursuit of a hare."
  The hare, we are told, is in a sense incidental to the sport.
  On page 36 of the Rules of the National Coursing Club, Rule 24 gives the points of the course, and I quote:
  "The points of the course are:—

  (a) speed—which shall be estimated as one, two or three points, according to the degree of superiority shown.

  7

  (b) the Go-Bye—two points, or if gained on the outer circle, three points.

  (c) the Turn—one point.

  (d) the Wrench—half a point.

  (e the Kill—two points, or, in a descending scale, in proportion to the degree of merit displayed in that kill, which may be of no value.

  (f) the Trip—one point."

  Pages 37 and 38 contain a definition of the
  points which I have mentioned. Let me quote them, one on the merit of the kill; and, two, on the trip. I again quote:
  "The merit of the kill must be estimated according to whether a dog by his own superior dash and skill, bears the hare; whether he picks her up through any little accidental circumstances favouring him, or whether she is turned into his mouth, as it were, by the other dog. The trip, or unsuccessful effort to kill, is where the hare is thrown off her legs or where a dog flecks her but cannot hold her."
  I emphasise that those are not my words. They are from the rules of the National Coursing Club. I trust that we shall hear no more from the opponents of the Bill to the effect that the kill is not an essential or inherent part of this brutal and inhuman sport.
  Since I first introduced the Bill thousands of letters urging the abolition of this so-called sport have been received by myself and by other hon. Members. Many hon. Members have suggested giving me their postage bills, which I am sure would immediately have bankrupted me, such is the number of replies they have had to send to people who have written to them. In addition, I and other hon. Members have received many petitions containing thousands of names. The letters and petitions have not been confined to city and town dwellers, as some people have alleged, but come from all parts of the nation, including village and country dwellers.
  I want to quote just a few of these letters. One dated 1st February says this:
  "I was once a beater for the Isle of Thanet hunt and coursing club. I was out of work at the time and this beater's job was offered me (two days) 15s. a day at the Margate Labour Exchange, so of course I went. I was sick with despair at this so-called sport, but I needed that 30s. at the time, but I did not go back to finish the meeting, because it was horrible".
  A farmer's wife says this in a letter:
  "I have never written to an M.P. before, but I feel so strongly on this subject that I
  8
  would like to know if there is any way in which I could help to get this Bill passed. … We farm about 350 acres in Hertfordshire and naturally have many hares on the farm. Admittedly, they do do damage to our sugar beet and other crops, so when there are too many around my husband has to organise a shoot to reduce the number of hares. He does not do this for the joy of killing the hares, and the shooting is done with great care to ensure that no animal is injured but dispatched quickly and as near painlessly as possible."
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Nonsense.
  Mr. Heffer: The lady continues:
  "The hares are not chased for miles in fear of their lives as with coursing. I am sure that most farmers who have to reduce the number of hares on their farms do so as humanely as possible, so the argument put by one of the coursing gentlemen that 50 per cent. of the shot hares go off to die in agony is a gross exaggeration."
  Someone writing from Stafford says this:
  "I have heard that there is hesitation to do anything to stop hare coursing because of its long association as a sport in the Northern Mining areas. I am a Northerner by birth and hare coursing was very much a sport of the wealthy. The mining community and the farmers raced whippets asd hounds by aniseed trailing, which many of us have watched and thoroughly enjoyed. If only this kind of 'coursing' could become more popular here; no one is torn to pieces in great agony. Dogs, owners and spectators all enjoy themselves and it can be most exciting."
  Those are three of the many thousands of letters that have been received by hon. Members and myself. The abolition of this so-called sport will be a most popular act and, as you yourself said, Mr. Speaker, it cuts across party division and is supported by people of all religious denominations and by some who profess no religion at all.
  Many of our great national newspapers have either declared their support for the Bill or have carried articles about live hare coursing. Let me list a few—the People, the Sun, the Daily Mirror, the Sunday Times, the Daily Mail, and the Sketch. There are others, and if I have missed them out I apologise to them.
  The whole question has also received wide television and radio coverage. The Bill is supported by the R.S.P.C.A., by the League Against Cruel Sports, and by many other animal protection and animal lovers societies. A letter dated 12th

  9
  April from the League Against Cruel Sports to the Home Secretary says this:
  "Sir, we have received in the office the below number of signatures, petitioning for government support of Mr. Eric Heffer's Bill for the Abolition of Hare Coursing as a result of a single advertisement in each of the following newspapers—The Liverpool Echo, 5,500; the Yorkshire Post, 3,082; the Daily Mail, 18,579, making a total of 27,161."
  Those petition forms were contained in newspapers. Anyone signing one had to fill in the form, go to a post office to get a stamp, and then send it off. The number of petition forms I have received regarding abortion has been infinitesimal compared to the number of petition forms which has been sent to me on this issue. This shows that there is a real interest and, without question, indicates that the majority of people are for the Bill.
  However, it may be said, and I am sure that it will be said, that 27,000 is only a small number. The League Against Cruel Sports asked the National Opinion Polls to organise a poll. These are the results.
  Two questions were asked. The first was:
  "Do you approve or disapprove of live hare coursing (that is, the blood sport in which two dogs compete against each other by using a live hare as a quarry)?"
  The second was:
  "Parliament is considering a Bill to abolish hare coursing. The Bill is unlikely to be passed unless the Government support it. Do you think the Government should support the Bill or not?".
  I disagree with the phrasing of the second question, but the point is made clear to the person being asked.
  The answers to those questions were as follows. Those who approved of live hare coursing were 17 per cent., those who disapproved were 77 per cent. and the "don't knows" were 11 per cent. As for the second question, those who thought that the Bill should be supported were 75 per cent., those against were 15 per cent. and the "don't knows" were 11 per cent. I believe that the results of the National Opinion Poll, plus the petitions and letters, truly indicate where the people stand in relation to this Bill.
  Why, then, are they supporting the Bill? No doubt there are many hon. Members who will say that it is out of ignorance, that the whole matter has been blown up, that it has got out of
  10
  proportion and is greatly exaggerated. No doubt the same arguments will be used today as were used when the campaign against cock fighting was an issue in the House and in the country.
  Let me again give some of the facts about what I believe to be a horrible business. Since the First Reading of the Bill, the Waterloo Cup meeting has been held at Lydiate, near Ormskirk, and this is the blue riband event of the whole hare-coursing world. I want to give some of the facts about events on the second day, which was 9th February, 1967. The following is an accurate record of events as seen by Mr. Swift, who had a stopwatch, and Mr. J. C. Burns, which was taking notes, and I have before me a document prepared by those gentlemen. This was on the second day:
  "Race No 6 in the Waterloo Cup: Duration of course, 18 seconds. Time for kill, 9 seconds. 'Tug of war': No. Very weak hare, not fully grown. Much abuse from crowd to the slipper about this, presumably because it was a poor contest.
  "Race No. 7: 79 seconds. Time for kill: in ditch; could not time this kill. A very gruelling run. Hare was killed in ditch after attempting to clear it. - Crowd milled round ditch to witness the kill."
  Then we have race No. 7 in the Waterloo Purse:
  "20 seconds. Hound which won 'tug of war' would not let go of hare and finally ran off with hare, the back legs of which were bleeding and still kicking."
  Then we have Waterloo Purse race No. 10—and I cannot read them all because of the pressure of time, but they are extremely gruelling to read.
  "Hare flung into the air as it was caught on the turn."
  Then we have Waterloo Purse race No. 15:
  "A particularly macabre 'tug of war', during which handlers were unable to separate the two hounds. When finally dropped the hare continued to kick and squirm and no attempt to put it out of its misery was made by either handler. About 45 seconds later a beater arrived and stamped on the stricken animal several times."
  So it goes on, and I want now to read some general observations:
  "Many spectators judged the weather as 'perfect for coursing'. There had been some rain on the previous night but the day itself was fine with sunny spells and only one shower. Yet under 'perfect' conditions 23 out of 44 hares were killed … All the investigators remarked that the greyhounds do not kill as a terrier will kill a rat. There is absolutely

  11
  no truth in the 'quick nip behind the head and she is dead' argument. The dog simply grabs the hare."
  At a certain stage of the proceedings, there was an altercation between Mr. Rowley and Lord Kenyon. The altercation arose because Mr. Rowley had been taking photographs, with specially adapted binoculars, and I have those photographs for everyone to see. They were taken during the Waterloo Cup this year—not in the past, not a hundred years ago, but two or three months ago. They are photographs of actual events which occurred at the Waterloo Cup meeting. I am only sorry that every hon. Member has not been able to see the photographs.
  It can be argued that the League Against Cruel Sports is an extremist organisation and that it is, as it were, the left wing of the movement. The most respectable animal organisation in the country is the R.S.P.C.A. I do not know whether members of that body could be called "centre-ists" or "conservatives", but there is no doubt that it is a respectable body. I want now to quote some recent reports from the R.S.P.C.A. These, again, have come up since the Bill was introduced on 31st January.
  The first is from Inspector No. 81, of Bedfordshire:
  "Of the 16 hares killed, 4 of them were still alive 30 seconds after being caught by the hound. Their screams could be heard 200 yards away. One incident which I should like to record was where two hounds had coursed a hare for a full 3 minutes. The hounds were almost at dropping point. The hare also was showing signs of exhaustion but was headed for a thicket and safety, when a stray hound broke into the course and nipped the hare, throwing it over its back. The hare was immediately caught by the other two hounds, and all three were tearing at this poor creature and the screams could be heard for 15 seconds before the body was ripped apart. On talking about this incident to other spectators, it appears that this is quite a common occurrence, which gives the lie to the rule about a reasonable means of escape."
  This is a report by Senior Inspector No. 227, again of Bedfordshire:
  "Three hounds were unable to race in the finals, owing to injuries received when coursing over soil with sharp flints exposed in the ploughed fields. With regard to the kill, four of these were out of sight of the spectators, but on three occasions where the killing was witnessed, the screams of the hares could be heard for seconds after the hounds were tearing at them, and in one case one hound holding the hare in its mouth rolled over on to its
  12
  back owing to the speed at which it was travelling, and the second hound made a grab at the hare, pulling it away from the first hound. The second hound then dropped the hare, which commenced running for a few yards before it was caught and killed."
  Quite often, the hounds themselves are injured, and in that connection I wish to quote reports by R.S.P.C.A. inspectors of two incidents which took place this year and a third which occurred in 1964. R.S.P.C.A. Senior Inspector No. 227 of Bedfordshire, whom I have already quoted, stated:
  "Three hounds were unable to race in the finals owing to injuries received …"
  Inspector No. 81, also of Bedfordshire, stated in March of this year:
  "… two hounds had coursed a hare for a full three minutes and the hounds were almost at dropping point …"
  Senior inspector No. 55 said in February, 1964:
  "There were two casualties during the day. Dog No. 3 collided on a turn and broke his right hind leg in the region of the hock joint. It tried to carry on chasing with the leg dangling until eventually caught Dog No. 52 also collided on the turn and broke his right foreleg under the knee joint."
  In February, 1949, Mr. Carson, the then hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet said:
  "I have been to coursing meetings before the war. I have seen the hare, as it became exhausted, and as the dogs or hounds began to overtake it, screaming in terror. Someone told me the other day that that is a reflex action. I do not believe it. The hare is alive, it is frightened and it is perfectly aware of what is going on. I heard that scream in six courses in one day, and I shall remember it as long as I live. I do not want to hear it again, and I do not intend to do so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1949; Vol. 461, c. 2183.]
  The defenders of this so-called sport argue, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that it is not a cruel sport. Lord Sefton, according to an article in the Liverpool Daily Post of 20th February, 1945—at that time a great argument was raging about whether or not it was a cruel sport—stated:
  "I maintain strongly and with complete conviction that, of the so-called blood sports, coursing is the least cruel."
  I have no doubt that those who oppose the Bill will quote from the Report of the Committee on Cruelty to Live Animals which was presented to Parliament in June, 1951. On page 110 the Report stated:
  "The degree of cruelty involved in coursing is not sufficient to justify its prohibition. For

  13
  the reasons set out in paragraphs 280 and 281. however, we make no specific recommendations as to the continuation of this sport."
  It is interesting to note that the paragraph 281 there referred to stated:
  "Even if coursing is not prohibited, we should point out that, if our general recommendations about cruelty to wild animals are accepted, anyone who takes part in coursing and either causes unnecessary suffering or fails to take reasonable precautions to prevent … unnecessary suffering may be liable to a conviction for causing cruelty to a wild animal."
  The whole issue there turns on the phrase "unnecessary suffering".
  Mr. James Ramsden: In fairness, would the hon. Gentleman quote the beginning of paragraph 280, to which he referred?
  Mr. Heffer: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to quote that paragraph to the House. He must allow me to make my own speech.
  I believe, as do those who support the Bill, that the whole idea of competitive coursing causes unnecessary suffering, not only to the hares but often to the hounds. It also creates among those who participate and watch an attitude of mind which leads to unnecessary cruelty. After all, what do we mean by "cruel" and "unnecessary"? I cannot think of anything worse than two dogs chasing a hare for pleasure. This in itself is unnecessary cruelty and cannot be justified, even by the standards of that Committee.
  Mr. Gilbert Longden: I apologise for arriving late and the hon. Gentleman may have referred to this matter earlier—but may I ask whether his Bill would prohibit beagling? He says that he can think of nothing worse than two dogs chasing a hare. Would not he agree that a pack of hounds chasing a hare is equally cruel, and, if not, why not?
  Mr. Heffer: If the hon. Gentleman had read my Bill he would know that it does not deal with beagling but with competitive live hare coursing. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to introduce a Bill to abolish beagling I will willingly sponsor it with him and assure him of my fullest support.
  In my view, the Scott Henderson Report was wrong in its conclusions about live hare coursing, especially if one reads what the Committee stated about the so-
  14
  called sport. For example, in paragraph 14 of the Appendix to the Report an account was given of the Waterloo Coursing Meeting, the final day of which the representatives of that Committee attended in 1950. They stated in their Report:
  "Sometimes, of course, the hare does not get away and is killed by the dogs. Usually the leading dog catches it and pulls it down, but the other dog is, as a rule, so close behind that it is also on the hare within a second or two. The speed is so great that it is impossible to see what actually happens, but generally the hare is on the ground with both dogs biting at it."
  The Report went on to give the figures of the number of hares killed during three days of one meeting. On the first day there were 48 courses and 20 hares, or 41 per cent., were killed. On the second day, 36 hares were killed in 44 courses, which means that 82 per cent. of the hares were killed. On the third day seven hares were killed in 17 courses, or 41 per cent. of hares. The report also stated in paragraph 17 of the Appendix:
  "Some of the dogs also suffer as a result of the weather. We saw one dog slip while turning a hare and break a leg, and the same thing happened at least once the previous day."
  I believe most strongly that the evidence of the Scott Henderson Committee contradicts its conclusions. I do not know why that should be so, but it must be said that any arguments based on those conclusions are misguided and irrelevant to this issue.
  I have spoken at considerable length today and I could speak at even greater length, so strongly do I feel about this issue. I am sure that I have said enough to have made out an adequate case for the abolition of live hare coursing. Many arguments in favour of coursing will be adduced today. Some will say that coursing controls the level of hares and, therefore, fulfils a useful function. Again, I have evidence from the R.S.P.C.A. which shows that in one part of the country beaters were beating up for a shoot while almost next door beaters were beating up for a course. It is very strange that that should be going on at the same time.
  Control is not the real purpose. If these people were concerned only with controlling the hares they would do as the farmers do—shoot them when necessary and when the occasion arose. The real purpose is the competitiveness, the pleasure, that certain people get—the

  15
  "fun", as a young lady described it on television, that they get out of the kill. That is the real purpose of this so-called competitive sport.
  The second argument will no doubt be that the people in the countryside are against the Bill, and that therefore it is not popular. I have had hundreds of letters from people in the countryside—and the one I quoted was an example—demanding the abolition of this so-called sport.
  The other great argument will be, of course, that the Bill strikes at the liberty of the individual. This is the most disgraceful argument of them all, but it has always been used. It was used against the abolition of child labour in the mines. Against every progressive Measure that has ever been introduced into this House of Commons for the abolition of some form of cruelty, the argument of the liberty of the individual has been raised. It was raised in connection with cock fighting, bull baiting, and all the other so-called sports with which this House has had to deal.
  This so-called sport is a cruel and bestial thing, and a relic of the past. The fact that it is an old sport is in no way evidence that it should continue. I hope that no one will argue about its ancestry from the days of the Pharaohs. Further, the people are in a majority against this coursing, and would welcome its abolition as a humanitarian as well as a civilised step.
  I conclude by quoting from a letter to The Times from Lord Soper on Friday, 14th April which, in my opinion, sums up the whole case against live hare coursing. Lord Soper wrote:
  "Here is a matter upon which there surely ought to be no difficulty for the Christian conscience, indeed for any sort of educated conscience. The coursing of hares is morally detestable. There is nothing of genuine import to be said in its favour, and everything to be said for its abolition."
  Sir Richard Glyn: Before the hon. Member sits down, will he tell us why it is more cruel to course a hare with two dogs than with one?
  Mr. Heffer: I have sat down. I am sorry.
  10.54 a.m.
  Mr. Marcus Kimball: I think that the action we saw before
  16
  the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) introduced his Bill, when the Trade Unions Dues Bill was not opposed, disposes of the argument that has already been used that this Bill was not voted against or spoken against when the hon. Member asked leave to introduce it. We think of this Bill in exactly the same way as we have done of the previous two similar Bills. It was only in 1957 that my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) spoke against a similar Bill, but we did not vote against it.
  It is important to have on the record the fact that when hon. Members know that there is no chance whatever of a Bill becoming law one does not get a truly representative vote. This was the position until 3.30 p.m. on Thursday, 20th April. Until then, the hon. Member's Bill was right down the list of Private Members' Bills, and I think that this point is important when we are assessing the effect of the letter-writing campaign which the hon. Gentleman has already mentioned.
  I must appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, as the protector of minority interests in the House, to remember that members of the sporting community are used to this game. We have been under fire many times before. We know the rules of the game as they used to be. We know that one real danger would be if the Government were ever misguided enough to introduce their own Bill. The other real danger is if an hon. Member draws place No. 1 or No. 6 in the Ballot, when we are faced with Second Reading before Christmas, or early in January. We have never before had a situation in which we have been given only 10 days' warning of the Second Reading of a Bill. I do not want to labour the point, but it is important that we should have it on record.
  It is also important to record that as long ago as last July I went to see the right hon. Lady, the Minister of State, Home Office to inform her that not only the National Coursing Club, but the governing bodies of all the sporting organisations which the British Field Sports Society represents, were ready to co-operate with the Government if they wished to work on the lines of the Scott Henderson Report, and legislate on the

  17
  sections of that Report that have not been implemented.
  The last thing that one should have on record is that the chairman of the National Coursing Club wrote to the Home Office on 27th March—after the Bill was published—and asked to see the Home Secretary. It is rather remiss that she and her colleagues were not asked to go to the Home Office until Friday afternoon, after it had been decided that the Government would give time for the Bill.
  We must accept from the start of this debate that the Government have fallen for a campaign of misrepresentation. This was one of the points made in 1949 and commented on in the Scott Henderson Report, and it is exactly the present position. The hon. Member may make great play of the number of hon. Members who signed the Motion on the Order Paper in support of the Bill, but the Scott Henderson Report found in 1947 that it was easy to understand how Members of Parliament, magistrates and clergymen, if supplied with the kind of literature which was then circulating, were only too ready to sign petitions and other things.
  I want to deal with this misrepresentation, because we are suffering very badly from it in the countryside. The first and worst kind of misrepresentation is to be found, not only in the literature put out by the opponents of the sport but in the frightful pictorial matter published. I, too, have the photographs to which the hon. Member has referred. I would point out that to any one who knows anything about the handling of hares it is quite apparent that the hares in the photographs are all dead. The point is always made of a tug-o'-war between two dogs, but the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that hares killed at coursing meetings are sold to poulterers. If the hares had been damaged by the dogs they would be unlikely to be accepted by those who wanted to sell them.
  It is very important that we should dispose early in this debate of the argument that I have seen in some newspapers that the dogs should course in muzzles, and not kill the hare. Any one who has seen a greyhound kill a hare will understand that if the hare is not dead the greyhound will not get it off the ground, but will pummel it into the ground. That is why I say that photo-
  18
  graphs which show hares off the ground are photographs of dead hares. Greyhounds would worry a handkerchief if they were encouraged, and that is all they are doing in the photographs.
  Another misrepresentation is that so much is made of the screams of the hare. I saw a young golden eagle try to catch a hare on top of a hill, and the only thing that saved the hare was its screams, which prevented the eagle from coming in for the final strike. It is on these occasions that the House would realise that the course of nature is very cruel indeed and that the screaming is one of the normal defensive mechanisms of a hare when it is in trouble.
  I find it extraordinary that none of the hon. Members who support this Bill has come as a guest of the National Coursing Club to a meeting. The hon. Member for Walton, when he asked leave to introduce the Bill, argued that one does not have to see murder or wife beating to know that it is wrong. There is no argument between us about murder or wife beating, but there is a very serious argument between us about the merits of coursing hares with greyhounds. In the countryside many respected people from all walks of life enjoy this sport, as was indicated by the Government inquiry set up by the last Socialist Government to look into cruelty to British wild animals.
  Above all, the members of the National Coursing Club resent the refusal of hon. Members opposite to come to see the sport for themselves. We want to make quite clear that we resent the allegations of the hon. Member about the character and mental attitude of the people who enjoy this sport. I ask him to look at the character and mental attitude of the people who enjoy indoor and sitting-down sport in night clubs, public houses, coffee bars and dance halls. There is enough scope for private Members' legislation there to keep him going for a whole Session of Parliament. This Bill is not about cruelty at all as I understand it. To chase a hare with one long dog is apparently not cruelty according to the hon. Member, but to chase a hare with two long dogs is said to be cruelty.
  Mr. Heffer: I have not said that it is not cruel to chase a hare with one dog. If the hon. Member wishes to introduce a Bill to stop that or wishes to put down an Amendment to this Bill

  19
  abolishing that as well we shall be pleased to accept it.
  Mr. Kimball: I accept that the hon. Member for Walton may not have said it but his supporters take the view that they are supporting a Bill to abolish cruelty and this is not so. Hon. Friends of mine who are better qualified to do so will deal with the legal side of the argument and with the incompetence of the Bill. Has the hon. Member thought of what will happen to the 70 trainers of greyhounds to the staff and the rearers of dogs and all concerned with the industry?
  Mr. Michael Jopling: Is my hon. Friend aware that at a recent sale of greyhounds many dogs were withdrawn because many breeders are suffering considerably as a result of this Bill?
  Mr. Kimball: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Walton realises that at sapling sales breeders nearly all have to withdraw litters as a result of his activities.
  When he was introducing the Second Reading of the Bill I thought that the hon. Member for the wrong reasons, was coming to the right conclusion about how we could handle the matter. He spoke of the 1911 Protection of Animals Act. The Scott Henderson Report made it perfectly clear that that Committee would like to see the Act amended to make it an offence to inflict on a wild animal greater cruelty than is normally suffered in nature. It went on to say that there should be a safeguard that coursing and other field sports were conducted under rules which would provide that there would be no greater cruelty than that which occurs in nature.
  It said that the rules should be deposited with the Home Secretary, or with an advisory committee set up by the Home Secretary on the particular sport concerned. Does the right hon. Lady the Minister of State, Home Office, still support the Scott Henderson Report? Are the Government prepared to give time for a Bill, prepared by the Government, on the lines of the Scott Henderson Report?
  Perhaps hon. Members will look at the table used by the hon. Member for
  20
  Walton in support of his Bill and some of the criticisms made of the Waterloo Cup meeting. The real criticism is that on the rare occasions when greyhounds do not kill the hare outright the trainers are slow to kill the hare. Naturally they want to collect their dogs first. Rules could be deposited with the Home Secretary making it an offence, for which one could be prosecuted, not to kill a hare before finally collecting one's dogs. The hon. Member will find that this solution suggested by the Scott Henderson Committee would cover the problem.
  All of us in the countryside who are connected with field sport regard this Bill as the thin end of the wedge. We regard it as extremely dangerous that the Government should stir up this controversy again and should depart from the tradition as set up by the Scott Henderson inquiry. I ask hon. Members, before they vote on this issue, to find out something about it. Hon. Members will have noted that The Guardian published a leading article which was misinformed and inaccurate in what it said about the sport, but The Guardian then had the courtesy to send a reporter to the Waterloo Cup meeting and to publish an article which ends with the statement:
  "…one's reaction to the sport seen as a television film is one thing; one's feelings about it standing in the crisp air of a spring day with the real sounds and smells of the sport and the countryside around one is quite another."
  I ask the hon. Member to see it thus.
  11.7 a.m.
  Mr. William Price: I offer congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) on bringing before the House a Bill which has widespread support in the country. He has outlined the case well and I do not propose to detain the House for more than a few minutes.
  I should like to add a small tribute to the organisations, newspapers and individuals who have long campaigned for the abolition of coursing, an activity—I have no intention of describing it as a sport—which cannot be justified on moral, economic or practical grounds. There are those on this side of the House who thank the Government for providing time for the Bill.
  Obviously, some hon. Members opposite are bitterly upset. I can understand their feelings. It is not difficult to

  21
  understand why they take this attitude. There can be only one reason. I hope that I shall not be uncharitable thus early in my remarks, but they hoped to kill the Bill in the usual way. It does not take a great deal of courage to set greyhounds on to a defenceless hare. It does not take much courage, either, to sit at the back in this House and to shout "Object" on the Motion for Second Reading of a Bill. We shall have the pleasure and privilege of seeing a little later whether those hon. Members have the courage of their convictions in the Division Lobby.
  Some hon. Members may not be absolutely clear on what coursing is about. Those from constituencies where coursing is practised want to relieve the ignorance. I accept the description in a leaflet issued by the League Against Cruel Sports, an organisation described as Left-wing. This is what it says about coursing:
  "Two greyhounds straining at the leash are released by a person called 'the slipper' giving the hare about 30 yards start. The already tired and terrified hare has then to run for its life. It has no other defence. The hare twists and turns at a speed of about 35 m.p.h. in order to escape the faster and fresh greyhounds.
  The hare is invariably doomed. It will first be caught by one greyhound, then the other will grab it and the hare becomes a living rope in a macabre tug of war. This may last a couple of minutes or so depending on how long it takes the handlers to reach their dogs. The hare at this point is more often than not still alive and screaming piteously. Writhing in agony, it is taken from the jaws of the dogs and killed, usually by having its neck stretched."
  That I believe to be a fair description of what is going on.
  There have been suggestions outside the House—we may get them in the House—that the 92 Members who signed my Motion calling for Government action come from the highly industrialised safe Labour seats where no coursing takes place. I do not propose to go through their credentials, but I can answer for my self. I come from a rural constituency and I have a majority of about one-fifth the size of most hon. Members' postal votes. Therefore, perhaps, I have a great deal to lose, but I do not intend to be deterred by the thought that there may be votes to be lost in the countryside.
  There was a time, many years ago, when I was filled with hatred for the people who took part in blood sports,
  22
  particularly hare coursing. But my attitude changed, as it has changed in many respects as I get older. I feel no hatred at all. My feeling is one of pity. I do not blame those who take part. I believe that society failed to educate them in their responsibilities towards the defenceless, and that Parliament, by refusing to legislate, encouraged them. In many ways, this is a sad debate. It is sad that it should be necessary. It is sad that we should be taking up valuable time, but a tiny minority of people, intent on satisfying their lust, have made it essential if we are to retain our reputation as a nation of animal lovers.
  I should like to deal briefly with two of the arguments which will be put forward. It is often claimed that one in ten of the hares is killed. That argument has been totally discredited time and again. The figure is nearer one in four. It is difficult to imagine more revolting methods of killing any animal. It could be argued that the chances of an hon. Member being murdered during the next 12 months are one in 300,000. Is that any justification? This is a very poor argument indeed.
  Secondly, it is said that coursing keeps down the hare population. I believe this to be a ludicrous argument. There have been allegations, not always answered, perhaps not always substantiated either, that foxes are being cultivated, and there have been occasions on which they have been imported. All I can say is that it strikes me as curious that there is always an abundance of hares when coursing meetings are held.
  Opponents of the Bill have made great play of the fact that none of the 92 Members who signed my Motion, and who support the Bill, accepted the invitation to go to a coursing meeting. I did not accept it, and I am not surprised that my hon. Friends did not accept it. The very thought of coursing is sufficient to turn my stomach over and over, and I suspect that many of my hon. Friends take the same view.
  If the coursing fraternity is so keen to open its doors, why does it ban all forms of photography? Why was there the rumpus to which my hon. Friend the Member for Walton referred? I have never been to a bull fight. I have never seen cock fighting. I am content to rely on the fighting which I see in the House.

  23
  I have never seen dog baiting. However, I know that Parliament was right many years ago to ban all three. Do hon. Members want any of them to be reintroduced? If the answer is "No"—and I do them the credit of assuming that that is the position—will they tell us in what way bull fighting or cock fighting is more evil than trained greyhounds tearing a hare to pieces? I am prepared to give way to anybody who can answer that simple and straightforward question.
  The law should be consistent. I do not believe that there are degrees of cruelty. The hare is entitled to the same protection as, say, the domestic rabbit. They have the same feelings, and they should be given the same rights.
  I welcome the Bill because I am opposed to the brutal massacre of innocent animals in the name of sport. But my objection goes deeper than that. The country is faced with an unprecedented crime wave, much of it based on violence to women, elderly people and animals. I am not suggesting for a moment that any of the people who take part in coursing would condone any of those acts. Indeed, I am sure that they would condemn them just as all hon. Members condemn them. But I suggest that, without even knowing it, they are setting an example which others, perhaps of less intelligence, are following.
  I believe that violence breeds violence, and that coursing supporters do the country a great disservice. Out of a love and respect for animals will develop a lcve and respect for people, and with it, one would hope, a substantial reduction in crimes of violence. Parliament must show the way. We must make it clear that we shall not tolerate cruelty in any form, whether it be hooligans kicking a cat to death or valuable greyhounds ripping a hare to pieces. My hon. Friend the Member for Walton, with whom I am frequently in disagreement, has earned the gratitude of millions of our people. I wish him and his Bill well.
  11.16 a.m.
  Mr. W. F. Deedes: I should like to make one or two observations about this small Bill.
  I thought that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) presented his case, if not with absolute moderation, then certainly with absolute fairness.
  24
  Although I am opposed to the Bill and, in answer to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. William Price), will have the courage to go into the Lobby against it, I have no reproaches to the hon. Member for Walton for introducing it. Any Member is free to introduce any Measure he likes on the subject nearest to his heart. The hon. Member for Walton, who feels strongly on this subject, has bided his moment and seized his opportunity. I see nothing discreditable about that—quite the reverse.
  However, why the Government have involved themselves to the extent of finding time for the Bill is to me a little mysterious. Again, I offer no approaches; I am mystified. It is not immediately clear to me what great matter of principle requires the Home Office to bring up its heavy artillery on a Monday morning. I am sure that the right hon. Lady the Minister of State will not misunderstand that; it is no disrespect to her. Presumably, it is felt that some great matter of principle is involved—perhaps a greater matter of principle than the export of live animals. We shall listen with great interest to what the right hon. Lady has to say.
  Perhaps it was felt by the Leader of the House that there is a need for a bit of sport on Monday mornings. Perhaps he felt that this little Bill, suitably boxed, and released under the noses of right hon. and hon. Members, would improve Monday morning meets. I see his point. I do not share the view of my hon. Friends who think it wrong that this controversial Measure should be introduced on a Monday morning. The problem of the Leader of the House is not to keep controversy out of Monday morning sittings, but to inject anything of the smallest interest into them. May I mention, in passing, that at an appropriate moment I shall seek leave to introduce a Bill to prevent the coursing of the Leader of the House by two or more Members of Parliament.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball), who has great knowledge of these matters, has touched on the Bill's principal weakness. It cannot be gainsaid, no matter how ingeniously the hon. Gentleman puts his case against the Scott Henderson Report. I have been refreshing my memory of that Report, and I thought that perhaps

  25
  the most interesting lines in it, which have not been quoted, were these:
  "The reports of the members of the Committee who went to Altcar caused us to revise our initial views very considerably, and the oral evidence which we later heard from the representatives of the Prohibition of Coursing Committee and other animal welfare organisations did not accord with what the members of the Committee saw."
  A gap arises between those who see these things and those who hear what others have seen. The hon. Member for Rugby, referring to an article, said that he believed that it was a true description of what was going on. I have no doubt that he spoke with absolute sincerity. But he could have improved his knowledge had he proved less unwilling to go and see for himself. Seeing is not always believing, but it is sometimes a help, and it helps to avoid saying some of the foolish things which have been said in support of the Bill which could not have been said by anyone who had witnessed the sport.
  A month or two back I spent a morning—I am not unfamiliar with the sport—with a coursing club, not in my own constituency, but very near it, on Romney Marsh, in Kent. I shall not weary the House with an account of the rather arduous morning I spent in an extremely cold wind, wearing rubber boots and pounding over plough and marsh.
  However, I want to venture to record one or two matters arising from the experience which established themselves in my mind. I saw, I suppose, a dozen hares coursed and three or four killed. I absolutely accept that figures vary, and I do not make over much of them. At least, it is fair to say—the hon. Member for Walton himself made this point—that all concerned are principally interested in the skill of the greyhounds and not in the slaughter of the hare.
  I must say with absolute honesty that I cannot pretend that I was shocked by anything I saw. I am not insensitive to animal welfare. Indeed, in my own household human beings are in some danger of being displaced by a wide variety of animal life. Nevertheless, even coming from that background, I did not see anything which I felt was a disgrace to national life or a disgrace to those who participate.
  Perhaps this club, which is about 100 years old, is rather exceptional. I was
  26
  impressed by the discipline which the field master and the slippers imposed, which seemed to me firm. I accept at once that, if the hon. Member for Walton had been with me, he might well have disagreed with all this. No two people see alike.
  I must go on to tell the House of one or two deeper impressions which were left on my mind. As I moved on that cold morning rather breathlessly over those lonely marshes, with perhaps a score of others, I found myself wondering how this ancient and rather esoteric pastime had come to outrage those who now write to tell me that it is a blot on our national life and must be wiped out.
  On the degree of suffering, there is well room for dispute. In my time I have followed beagles and have been with harriers. It struck me that the degree of suffering for the hare was probably somewhat less than could occur with beagles. I would defend beagling as well. I speak in terms of comparison. I did not think that wild life suffered the indignity or barbarity which is sometimes alleged. But that is arguable.
  At least, there can be no argument about this: no one can call it an intrusive pastime. It keeps itself to itself. The many thousands who have written, I have no doubt most sincerely, to the hon. Member in protest do not have this inflicted upon them. They are not compelled day after day to suffer the indulgences of other cruel and rather selfish people.
  The second reflection which struck me very forcibly was the margin between what I saw and what some current propaganda tells me what I ought to see. There is a discrepancy between those who actually go coursing and those who write and sometimes read the propaganda. I must say one word about this. For the R.S.P.C.A., which the hon. Member for Walton mentioned, I personally have nothing but the highest respect and regard, whatever its views are on the Bill. It does an enormous amount for animal welfare and it deserves our support through thick and thin, even if it supports a Bill like this.
  I cannot see that the same can be said of every other organisation which has been engaged in this small campaign. It

  27
  is not very difficult, with judiciously selected pictures, appropriately captioned, to arouse a deep sense of human outrage, particularly on the most emotive subject of animal welfare. All is fair in love, war and propaganda. I will not describe some of the propaganda as mischievous, but it has certainly been misleading.
  It can become mischievous when it is taken up thoughtlessly by mass media. Coursing is not only good campaign material. Coursing is also what the producers call "good television". We all know what that means. It is not bad for newspaper circulation, either—"This filthy practice must stop. See page 7".
  Mr. William Price: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman so soon after I have spoken. So that an accurate picture could be obtained, does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Waterloo Cup organisers would allow television cameras in?
  Mr. Deedes: No doubt other hon. Members can answer the point more specifically. I am anxious not to speak beyond the range of my own knowledge.
  I understood that the organisers were open handed indeed in the matter of those they invited. However, there is a limit, bearing in mind the intrusiveness of television, to what one can permit. The House of Commons has taken a view about this. At any rate, it is not particularly difficult nowadays to persuade thousands of people who do not know the country very well that this is some form of barbaric custom steeped in cruelty. It is extremely difficult to prove the converse.
  The fact is that in this very heavily urbanised country of ours urban and rural dwellers have points of view which are very, very difficult to reconcile. The countryman is outnumbered today by about 20 to one. The National Opinion Poll figures mentioned by the hon. Member for Walton—75 to 10—are more than accounted for by the fact that the country-man is in a very small minority.
  Those who are speaking against the Bill are not doing so out of a sense of political hostility, but because this tiny minority of countrymen who feel passionately in defence of these sports need a voice or two raised on their behalf.
  Mr. John Wells: My right hon. Friend mentioned the N.O.P. and
  28
  the fact that countrymen are way outnumbered, anyway. Has he any information about the practice of the pollsters in not going near rural areas? I am under the impression that they trot around large towns exclusively.
  Mr. Deedes: I have no such information. I find all the statistical basis for this very confusing. I mention this aspect only because the hon. Member for Walton mentioned figures. It has some relationship to the minorities in the country-side.
  The countryman has his point of view. When campaigns of this sort, sometimes nourished by prejudice and fed on a little ignorance, arise, he has, or he feels that he has, his grievance. I think that the countryman may be forgiven for wondering whether his indulgence in blood sports, of which this is only one, is really more demoralising than the current public taste for violence, for horror, for sado-masochism, in which entertainers indulge so generously.
  The countryman sees television plays of unending violence, beatings up, killings, not of hares, but of human beings, offered for the delectation of old and young, not on remote marshes, but on television screens wide open to millions of people. He is entitled to wonder a little why he should be sought out by the hon. Member for disgrace.
  Again, taking a hare's blood is passionately regarded by some as a sin, but the splashing of blood round the ring in a heavyweight boxing championship is thought to be legitimate public amusement. If we had a Bill to prohibit professional boxing, the hon. Member for Walton might very well be in the same Lobby as me, opposing the Bill. I do not believe that we should go into the Lobby with the noble Lady who feels strongly that boxing should be abolished. It is, in a sense, a matter of comparison.
  More directly, the countryman sees a great deal of unwitting cruelty inflicted on his own animals——
  Mr. Heffer: I was born and lived in a country town until I entered the Royal Air Force, at the age of 19. So I know all about the country; I was brought up in it. I do not want it to be thought that I am introducing the Bill as a "town boy" who has had no experience of country matters.
  Mr. Deedes: I think that the hon. Gentleman was not in his place earlier when I said some kind words about the way in which he introduced the Bill. I am not knocking him in the least. However, there are others who have less advantage than he when it comes to discussing these proposals. I am addressing them, not the hon. Gentleman. I look to him because he is the promoter of the Bill.
  I was saying that the countryman sees a great deal of unwitting cruelty inflicted on his own animals when urban visitors come and spread their bottles, tins and the rest of it, and much worse, in the woods in his area. If he is anywhere near a town, he will find the woods rendered unsafe for man or beast by the practice of young men descending in cars with shotguns and loosing off indiscriminately at all forms of wild life.
  Again, I am not seeking merely to justify a sport by what I say but to give a perspective of the countryman considering the Bill. I wonder if hon. Members know how many animals are wounded and left to die in agony and to rot, because of the promiscuous use of shotguns. Every now and again, alas, human beings are also left like that.
  On top of all this, the countryman is told that this ancient sport—I do not stress its antiquity, which is conducted under strict rules, is a disgrace which must be put down. He may be forgiven for feeling that there is a lot of humbug about this, and that is not the least reason why I oppose the Bill. We have become most censorious about other people's recreations. All of us are apt to criticise those who play bingo, those who watch football on Saturday afternoons and those who play polo.
  Short of any offence against the law as it stands, the countryman is entitled to his recreations, even if they include bloodsports. They may seem to the sophisticate less enlightened than Saturday afternoon punch-ups at football grounds, or bingo, but they have their adherents who do not regard them as inhuman or wicked.
  We shall not reconcile the differences between town and country. In my village we are apt to divide the villagers and the residents. There is a distinction. There are many residents in villages today who,
  30
  unlike the hon. Member for Walton and myself, were not brought up in the countryside. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the letters he had received, and no doubt that accounts for some of the correspondence which bears rural postmarks. The policy to which I lend my hand is co-existence between town and country. If we can continue trying to get the Communist countries and our own to co-exist, as the hon. Gentleman is keen to do, surely we could achieve greater co-existence between the countryside and the town. What does co-existence mean? It means saying, "We object to some of the things you do and you object to some of the things we do. But without sacrificing important principles we shall none the less try to get on together."
  In this small island, as the town begins to cut bigger swathes all the time into the countryside, that is the only sensible solution; it is certainly the only sensible solution for the Government. That is why it is so daft for the Government to appear to be giving the Bill a fair wind. They should be seeking to reduce the bitterness which undoubtedly exists. I have worked in a Ministry where we dealt with the bitterness of the countryside against the demands of cities and towns. The effects of a Bill like this——
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): Although I represent the centre of one of the biggest cities I live in the country, so at least I see both.
  Mr. Deedes: The right hon. Lady and her city sometimes have demands to make on the countryside. I am in favour of reducing the bitterness felt between county councils and municipal councils.
  Bills like this, which crusade against cruelty and make allegations against the countryman, increase the bitterness the countryman feels towards the town and tend to stiffen his back against all demands. That is very short-sighted and rather sad.
  I say to hon. Members, including some of my hon. Friends, if they really feel that they are dealing with a unique, barbaric pastime, which is out of line with all the other country pursuits, they must support the Bill. But I hope that they will not support it simply because, if they do not, their constituents will think badly of them. I am clear where I stand. I

  31
  stand for co-existence of town and country. The Bill is inimical and detrimental to that co-existence, and that is why I shall vote against it.
  11.35 a.m.
  Mr. Victor Yates: On so many occasions when there is a chance to carry out a reform the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) either comes down on the fence or surrounds his arguments with matters which do not seem altogether relevant.
  This is a question of opinion. I recognise that there are differences of opinion. The right hon. Gentleman saw three or four animals killed and says that that does not matter very much; it did not affect him. But to some of us it does matter. There is something to be said for killing pests, but not for doing so in sport. I can think of nothing more unsporting than to match two fresh dogs against a hare that is frightened and is chased to its death.
  The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball), who is the principal opponent of the Bill, was rather disturbed that hon. Members on this side who had put their names to the Bill had not accepted his invitation to attend a coursing meeting. I am one of them. I have always opposed blood sports. I was asked some years ago to see a deer hunt. I was invited by the Devon and Somerset Staghounds.
  I was sure that it would not change my view, but I thought that I would go. They offered to provide me with a horse, and one of my colleagues said, "If ever you ride on a horse, then I shall go on a camel". I am sorry that I could not accept the offer of a horse. The result of my visit was that, instead of being affected, as they might have thought, to be in favour of hunting, I became even more opposed to it.
  Mr. Richard Body: The hon. Member was accompanied by me on that occasion. The only difference was that I had a horse and he did not. Fog descended, and neither he nor I saw anything of the stag hunt that morning. Therefore, it is rather hard for him now to say that he left more firmly convinced that it should be opposed.
  Mr. Yates: I am not so sure. I did not see the kill on that occasion, but even if the hon. Gentleman felt delight in seeing the deer being cut into pieces and distributed to people in the village, it did not appeal to me. I felt a horror about it all.
  I had the opportunity, in Birmingham, of seeing a film of live hare coursing. The hon. Member for Gainsborough said that when one sees the tug of war the hare is killed. But I saw the film of the hare being chased until one dog and then a second had hold of it, and I believe that those pictures are correct. I cannot see any reason for my going to see that all over again; I should only feel more horror. If hon. Members believe that photographs of live hare coursing are not correct, why are the cameras not allowed in? Why is it that the programme of the Waterloo Cup hare coursing, of which I have a copy, says that all rights of photography are strictly reserved?
  Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: I am informed that, on the occasion of the last Waterloo Cup, both the B.B.C. and I.T.A. were present.
  Mr. Yates: The programme clearly states that all rights of photography are reserved. I have been in communication with the Home Office on the matter. A number of policemen on the course have chased people with cameras.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Yates: I am sorry. I must not keep giving way. Other hon. Members wish to speak.
  This programme costs 10s. That is what it costs to see this barbarity. I cannot see why hon. Members should feel, in this day and age, a delight in seeing dogs chase hares and pull them to pieces. This is one of the worst of the blood sports. I feel very strongly about it.
  I believe that the hunting of wild animals for amusement is not reconcilable with a humane way of life. I do not believe that it is reconcilable with a Christian order of life, because one of the Christian attributes is mercy and there is no mercy in hare coursing. Perhaps the idea of a Christian order of society does not appeal to the hon. Member who is laughing, but to me and to

  33
  many other people coursing is absolutely inhuman.
  Mr. John Wells Mr. John Wells rose——
  Mr. Yates: I shall not give way again.
  I want to say why I have seen no necessity to go to one of these coursing meetings. I have seen a film and it was horrifying. Coursing may be thrilling to hon. Members opposite, but it is horrifying to me and apparently horrifying to the majority of the House who are prepared to support the Bill.
  I support my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). If the Bill goes through, as I believe it will, it will be a further step forward in the march for humanity. I do not believe in any hunting. Coursing is probably the worst of the lot. The fact that animals get killed anyway does not affect the issue of the inhumanity of coursing. One hon. Member has said that hares can be sold for food. That may be so, but why do we want to kill animals just for amusement? This is a very important subject. The Bill should have been introduced long ago. I give it my fullest support.
  Mr. David Gibson-Watt: The hon. Gentleman has been making a general attack on field sports. Does this dislike of his also extend to fishing?
  Mr. Yates: I do not consider fishing to be in the same category as this subject, which is the only issue before us this morning.
  I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is a case of seeing two dogs dragging an animal apart. It is degrading and is pursued just for fun. The hare is a live rope in a tug of war. The time is long overdue when coursing, which is the hunting of creatures to utter exhaustion and death, should be outlawed. It has been called "sportive butchering" and that is precisely what it is.
  11.45 a.m.
  Mr. James Ramsden: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Victor Yates) raised the question whether hunting or coursing are reconcilable with civilisation or the Christian way of life. I will deal with that aspect later in my speech.
  On reading the debates which took place in 1949, the last time that this issue
  34
  was raised, I see that Sir Joceyln Lucas was taken to task for not declaring an interest because he kept large numbers of those terriers associated with his name. I, too, had better declare an interest. I do not keep greyhounds, but I do keep foxhounds. I got together a pack in 1962.
  It is illustrative of the wide geographical support for field sports and of the growing support for them generally that, in the same year, two new packs were formed, one by myself in the North of England and one by the miners in South Wales. I have not myself been coursing but like others brought up in the country, I have seen hares caught by dogs and I appreciate what happens. I did try to go to a coursing meeting as soon as I knew that the Bill was likely to come up in the House, but the season had ended and it was not possible. No one originally expected that the Bill would ever come on.
  I find it rather objectionable—and I gave the Leader of the House notice that I would say this—that the Government should have put a Bill of this character on at a morning sitting. The right hon. Gentleman gave a clear undertaking about his intentions for business at morning sittings. He said that we would not discuss anything controversial. He told us that on 14th December.
  Last Thursday, however, he said that because the Bill was allowed an unopposed introduction under the Ten Minute Rule, and because the Motion in support, while signed only by Members on his side of the House, was not opposed by hon. Members on this side of the House, he could not find it in his heart to regard the Bill as controversial. To have used that argument is disingenuous. He will not retain the respect and confidence of the House if he treats it in this way.
  I have never been coursing, but probably there is more excuse for me than for hon. Members who have promoted this Bill. I gather that they were all invited to a coursing meeting, but that no one is aware that any of them accepted. That is a pity. They should have done what the Scott Henderson Committee did and availed themselves of an opportunity to see the Wateroo Cup or, at any rate, some other coursing meeting. If they had they would probably have reached the conclusion, as that Committee did, that

  35
  the amount of cruelty involved in coursing is considerably exaggerated by the propaganda of those who, like themselves, support this Bill.
  Although I share in the tribute that has been paid to the sincerity of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), I think that the Bill is the child of a great deal of inevitable ignorance, because people do not take the trouble to find out the facts for themselves. I accept, also, that he and his hon. Friends want to stop a practice which they regard as cruel. I will take that as the starting point of my argument and will seek to meet him on that basis.
  If the Bill goes through as it stands it will not prevent the coursing of hares. It will not stop people going out with a greyhound, or a whippet, or a lurcher, and running hares. They will still be able to do that. What the Bill will prevent—and I wonder whether the promoters realise this—is coursing being carried on, as it now is, under the auspices of the National Coursing Club. The effect will, therefore, be to remove an existing safeguard which ensures that coursing is properly conducted.
  Mr. Heffer: The right hon. Gentleman has obviously misread the Bill. It is quite clear that it prevents all coursing whether done under National Coursing Club rules or carried out by a group of individuals. The point is that an organised course will be prevented by the Bill.
  Mr. Ramsden: That is exactly my point. The practice, to which objection is taken on grounds of cruelty, of dogs running hares will not be prevented by the Bill. In fact, I believe that there will be more of it. What the Bill will prevent is the organisation of this sport and, therefore, the safeguards at present existing to ensure that the sport is decently and properly carried on——
  Mr. James Dance: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that for many years cock fighting has been illegal, yet mains do go on, and under conditions we know nothing about?
  Mr. Heffer: Perhaps I may make the position clear. The man who goes out
  36
  on a Sunday morning or Saturday afternoon with a dog which chases a hare is not covered by the Bill. That is perfectly understood. But it would be illegal for a number of people, whether or not they were members of a club, to organise a course. For them to say they were not organised and did not belong to a club, or something like that, would be quite irrelevant.
  The Bill makes it illegal for them to organise a competitive course. The man whose dog is slipped and runs after a hare is not covered. That sort of thing happens in the countryside all the time, as we know, and it is not intended to be covered.
  Mr. Ramsden: That is exactly my point. When this happens, as it will, and I think that there will be more of it, there will be more of what the hon. Gentleman regards as cruelty than there is now. I do not believe that the Bill will do what he wants it to do.
  The safeguard at the moment lies in the rules of the National Coursing Club. Coursing meetings have to be held under those rules. People who break the rules are barred from coursing just as a jockey who punishes a horse too much is barred by the Jockey Club. Other similar organisations watch over the interests of other forms of British sport.
  The sport of coursing, like other sports, has built into it its own code of proper conduct. To instance one or two points that are relevant, that means that weak hares are not coursed, for the good reason that to do so would be unsporting in terms of the hare and would not provide a proper test as between two dogs, which is the intention. Coursing is not done in conditions in which the hares cannot run. Meetings do not take place if there is snow on the ground, or the ground is very muddy. Hares are coursed on their own ground with which they are familiar and know the escape routes, and when they are not, as it were, at a disadvantage as compared with the dogs.
  All these rules are to enforce proper conduct of the sport. If the hare is not killed cleanly by the dogs, and this can happen—and the hon. Gentleman made quite a point of it—it has to be dispatched at once by people who are on the ground for that very purpose. It is the duty of the first person on the scene

  37
  to make sure that the hare is so dispatched. If this Bill becomes law, coursing will certainly go on, but without the present safeguards provided by the National Coursing Club.
  Someone has said that there are about 4,000 greyhounds—I am told that there are more—at present registered. I do not believe that if the Bill becomes law the owners of these greyhounds will knock them on the head and get rid of them. They will want to continue to course them, and there is nothing in the Bill to prevent it. I believe that if this Bill had been law 10 years ago there would now be more coursing going on than there is, and I will tell the hon. Gentleman why I think so.
  At the moment, coursing takes place under the auspices and in accordance with the programme of the National Coursing Club. To begin with, meetings were arranged and programmes were drawn up in accordance, roughly, with the availability of ground on which to course. There are not all that many places where one can course. One cannot use very enclosed country, because coursing is just not possible there.
  But, because of a change in the practice of agriculture there is now very much more ground over which people can course—farmers have pulled out hedges, and there is much more arable farming. I therefore honestly think that if the Bill goes through there will be much more coursing. The country is available, people will take out the dogs, and a great deal more cruelty will be involved because of lack of control over the conduct of coursing. I must ask hon. Members: is mat what they intend?
  The hon. Member prayed in aid the state of public opinion, and quoted a number of letters. If this Measure goes through, it will prevent a form of activity in which a number—admittedly, a minority, but quite a substantial minority—of our countrymen participate and which they enjoy. Hon. Members may have differing views on the merits of this recreation and people's enjoyment of it, but it goes on, and we should ask ourselves what sort of people engage in it and enjoy it.
  It is certainly not the gilded rich. Like the hon. Gentleman, I have had a number of letters on the subject, and if we
  38
  had had a little more warning of the Bill's provenance, I would certainly have had a good many more. I should like to quote from one or two of them. I have a postcard which reads:
  "Please do not let them stop coursing on 1st May. I am an old-age pensioner. I go to Thirsk"—
  That is the seat of the Old Yorkshire Coursing Club—
  "and get 30s. a day for beating. I meet all my old pals, see a lot of sport and have a right good day out. It's all I have to look forward to to pass the winter on. Please do not let them do it".
  Let me quote from another letter written to me.
  "I am writing to ask your help, as there is a Bill coming up in Parliament on May 1st to end greyhound coursing. As I am a coursing enthusiast, and I know you yourself is a great sportsman, please vote against it. The Press have made a great song and dance against it, but most of it is all lies. There are an awful lot of things which are far more cruel than coursing, and far worse. For instance, the filth printed in the Sunday papers and poured out on television."
  The latter point may be what the Leader of the House describes as "an intemperate remark", but the fact is that it conveys truth and expresses a sense of values which, I think, have a great deal to commend them.
  Mr. John Tilney: Would my right hon. Friend also agree that there are many people in the towns involved, as well as in the country? As was pointed out in the Scott Henderson Report, they like a day in the country.
  Mr. Ramsden: Both of these letters were postmarked from my constituency of Harrogate, from people living in the town.
  Two things have emerged from this. The first is that if the Bill is proceeded with, hon. Members opposite will be deliberately oppressing—1 do not think that that is too strong a word for it—a minority of their fellow countrymen, and limiting their freedom to enjoy themselves in their own way.
  Secondly, and this was well put by my right hon. Friend for Ashford (Mr. Deedes), the Bill is encouraging a very regrettable spirit of town versus country-side. It is stirring up the people in the towns to believe that the country people spend all their time in the practice of barbarous sports. It is stirring up the

  39
  country people to think that those in the towns are only concerned with interfering with the country people's recreations. This is happening and it is to be regretted.
  This brings me to say a word about the attitude of the Government and the Home Office. The right hon. Lady knows that the Labour Government of 1945 to 1950 went fully into this subject and appointed the Scott Henderson Committee which reported on this. Hitherto, the present Government have been prepared to stand on the conclusions of mat report. I hope that they will stand on them now and that the right hon. Lady will assure us on this. Having given time to the Bill, we are anxious to know whether the Government have changed their position.
  Miss Bacon: I hope to catch Mr. Speaker's eye in a few moments, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could be a little more specific when he says that he hopes the Government still stand by the Report. Could he point to any announcement by the Government that any Government had accepted the views of the Scott Henderson Report.
  Mr. Ramsden: No, but this morning I looked up an Answer given by the right hon. Lady on fox hunting. In that Answer she used, almost verbatim, an extract from the Scott Henderson Report, expressing its conclusions. I take it that the Government stand by it? Perhaps she can explain the position. We want to hear of the position of the Government and the Home Office.
  When I was Minister at the War Office I used to thank my stars for the Home Office because it seemed that there was at least one Government Department which was more accident prone and more liable to get into trouble than the War Office. The Home Office has, whether it likes it or not, an endless succession of troubles on its plate. The crime wave has been referred to; there is drugs, drink, aliens, strip-tease, gambling, a whole lot of things, all of which are liable to blow up at any moment into a first-class row. In addition, the Home Office is the great Department of State which has the prime responsibility of seeing that people accept happily our system of government and live peaceably under it.
  When there is a minority of people who are prepared to live peaceably and
  40
  enjoy their own recreations, giving no one any trouble and not getting involved in crime, and if the Home Office sets about stirring those people up, sponsoring an interference with their liberties and recreation, then as my right hon. Friend for Ashford said, I think that the position is daft. I hope that this is the view that the Home Office will take.
  I promised that I would face the question of cruelty raised by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Victor Yates). This is fundamental to the whole of the argument. If one can state the problem, one can do so as follows: how far is a man, who is a being in a higher order of creation, justified in doing things to members of a lower order of creation, involving them, perhaps, in suffering in the course of obtaining his own recreation?
  This is the question which has exersised people, and it is one that we ought to face. If I felt that one could answer it by saying that a man is not so justified, then there would be grounds for supporting the Bill and for prohibiting, not only this field sport, but others, including shooting and fishing and for prohibiting other practices, going far wider than field sports, such as the killing of animals for food, and some of the practices of modern husbandry.
  The fact is that one cannot give such a plain and simple answer to this question. During the long time that this problem has been debated, a clear, straightforward answer which would command universal acceptance has never been given. This has always been a matter for conscience and debate. One of the difficulties about reaching a clear-cut answer arises from the amount of cruelty which is to be found in nature. These hares at Altcar and the other coursing grounds, if the Bill goes through, will not have their lot made much more agreeable than it is now. If they increase in number they will be controlled by shooting or some other way. If that does not happen, next year or the year after, there will be a hard winter with snow on the ground, they will not get their proper food, they will weaken and fall a prey to a fox, a stoat, or a cat.
  There is the Blue Mountain hare in Scotland which seems to be expressly created to be the food of the Golden Eagle. A more horrible death than being

  41
  carried off alive in the talons of a Golden Eagle it would be difficult to imagine. Yet this is a bird which Parliament protects. The ordinary course of nature produces some baffling instances when one tries to face these problems. Even if the Bill were better drafted from the promoters' point of view, it would not improve the lot of the hare.
  Mr. Peter Mills: Has my right hon. Friend ever listened to the sound of, or watched, a stoat attacking a rabbit?
  Mr. Ramsden: I have, and what my hon. Friend says reinforces my argument. But from the point of view of those who favour the Bill, this is not the point. However cruel nature is—and she is cruel—is man justified in adding to it by participating, to some extent, in it? This is the question which must be faced.
  The hon. Member for Walton concluded his speech with a quotation from the words of one eminent divine. But the fact is that philosophers and divines have answered this question in opposite senses through the ages, no matter what Church they belonged to or the philosophy to which they subscribed. St. Hubert said one thing, St. Francis said another. Hon. Members have to make up their minds before which saint they light their candle. There is no consensus.
  This is not a question which the House of Commons—I say this with great respect—can decide satisfactorily. Parliament is not at its best when handling such questions. Essentially, it is a question for each person's individual conscience. It is a choice which anyone who decides to take part in field sports and to enjoy them has to make for himself. I do not think that the hon. Member for Walton or i, or any of us, has the right to make it for them. If we attempt to make it for them, we are trespassing on the ground which belongs to individual liberty and individual freedom of choice. I do not think that we should so trespass.
  I hope that the Bill will not pass. It will not achieve its object or the wishes of its promoters. It will oppress the liberties of a minority of our fellow countrymen. It will put in peril a much larger minority. When one of my hon. Friends said that the Bill was the thin
  42
  end of the wedge for those who participate in other field sports, he was applauded by hon. Members opposite. Many people are anxious in case the Bill should go through. It raises a question which, in all humility, I do not believe Parliament is competent to decide. It is a matter for the individual conscience of those who see fit to participate in these sports. I hope that the House will reject the Bill.
  12.14 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): It might be helpful to the House if I were to say a few words about the Government's attitude to the Bill and about my own views.
  As hon. Members will recall, the Leader of the House announced on 20th April that the Government proposed to allocate time to the Bill today to facilitate proceedings. This has been criticised this morning. At any rate, it seems to have achieved one thing. I seem to have had more than my fair share of business on Monday mornings, and I have sat in the House and gazed at empty benches. At least the Bill has brought hon. Members to the House on a Monday morning.
  I never thought that I would hear hon. Members criticising the Government for giving more time to Private Members' Bills. [HON. MEMBERS: "Come off it."] It is no use saying "Come off it". The Government decided recently to give time to two Private Members' Bills. One was a Bill of the hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell), who had taken over the Lord Chief Justice's Bill, which was introduced in the House of Lords. It was only because it managed to be reported and get a Third Reading on a Friday afternoon that it, too, was not given Government time on a Monday morning.
  Mr. Gibson-Watt: Since the right hon. Lady is advancing this argument, can she tell us why the Bill produced by her hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) did not get priority over the Bill we are discussing? The hon. Lady's Bill dealt with the question of children's nurseries, which, in the view of many hon. Members, is of high priority.
  Miss Bacon: I am very interested in that Bill, but as far as I recall—I speak

  43
  without the dates before me—the announcement to give this Bill time on a Monday morning was made before my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough had permission to bring in her Bill.
  The Government's decision does not mean that at this stage the Government are giving, or are committed to giving, full and formal support to the Bill. For reasons which I shall mention later, the Government's attitude at this stage is one of neutrality. There will be a free vote on this side of the House, with no Government Whips on, as is usual with Private Members' Bills. However, there seemed to the Government to be good reasons why discussion of the Bill should not be indefinitely delayed.
  May I deal with what I thought was the rather unfair speech of the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball). Perhaps he did not mean it to be unfair. I was very surprised that he criticised me for not meeting earlier the deputation from the National Coursing Club. He will know that I have met two deputations within months from this club, and I went out of my way at very great personal inconvenience to meet it before this morning. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not realise, although I am sure that nearly every other hon. Member realises, that the Home Office Ministers have been very heavily engaged in the last few weeks in Government business in the House and in Committee. The club could have met an official of the Home Office earlier, but I went out of my way—perhaps a week or two after it requested to see me—to see it before the Second Reading this morning.
  As I say, there has been clear evidence of wide and continuous public interest in this Measure, and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), who presented his case very fairly this morning, received a good deal of support when he asked leave to bring in the Bill.
  The Bill is short. It is simple in construction. It is confined in scope to a particular activity, and it seems to the Government to be soundly drafted for the purpose in view. Above all, the issue for decision is relatively straightforward, as I will try to explain.
  Mr. Richard Sharples: The right hon. Lady announced to the House on 23rd June that a review of field sports was taking place. The House would be interested to know whether the views which she is about to express are as a result of that review.
  Miss Bacon: If the hon. Gentleman allows me to make my speech, I will deal with that. I should prefer to make my speech in my own way.
  The Scott Henderson Committee has been referred to today. It has been mentioned that it examined the case for a number of field sports in its Report on Cruelty to Wild Animals in 1951. On several occasions I have read with great care the Committee's remarks about hares and hare coursing. The Committee dealt, first, with the need for control of hares, and in paragraph 250 of its Report it stated:
  "Hares are regarded as a pest to agriculture only if they become too numerous. When this occurs they cause considerable damage to root crops (especially sugar-beet), brassica and, to a limited extent corn, so that control of them becomes necessary in the interests of agriculture. Hares are always regarded as a pest to forestry because they nip off the tips of newly planted trees, both hardwood and softwood. Consequently control is of greater importance to the Forestry Commission and those engaged in forestry than it is to the Agricultural Departments and farmers".
  Turning to methods of control, the Committee mentioned that the normal methods are shooting, netting, snaring and trapping—shooting being by far the commonest method used. The Committee recommended in paragraph 252—
  "The field sports of hare-hunting and coursing are also regarded by some of their supporters as exercising a degree of control though neither is considered to be very effective."
  The Committee returned to this point in paragraph 280, pointing out that hares were not controlled by the coursing that takes place at, for example, Altcar, where hares are far more numerous than they would be if their numbers were controlled by ordinary methods.
  The balance of the argument about control seems to tilt very heavily against hare-coursing as making any real contribution. I must make it clear to the House that the Agriculture Departments and the Forestry Commission have no objection whatever to the Bill looked at from the point of view of control of

  45
  hares. Therefore, today we can ignore the question of dealing with hares as pests in considering the proposals in the Bill. That leaves the question of cruelty.
  The view of the Scott Henderson Committee was that, where a justifiable activity necessarily involved a degree of suffering, cruelty did not arise unless more suffering was inflicted than was necessary in the pursuit of that activity. When the Committee came to apply this test to field sports, it considered that there would be justification in interfering with a sport in one or other of the following circumstances. The Committee said, first, in cases where the sport contributes to control interference would be justified if the amount of suffering inflicted is greater than would be involved in the use of alternative methods of control. That case is not relevant here, because, as I have explained, the hare coursing with which the Bill is concerned does not contribute to control.
  The other case where the interference with the sport would, in the view of the Scott Henderson Committee be justified, is where a sport does not serve control and gives rise to more than a degree of suffering. The basic issue is, therefore: does coursing involve more than a slight degree of suffering?
  If I have read the Report correctly, it reached the following conclusions. These conclusions have been mentioned this morning. They appear to be in some respects slightly contradictory. The Report said, first, that coursing involves no more suffering than the shooting of hares as ordinarily practised. Secondly, the risk of cruelty would arise where the coursing made no contribution to control. Thirdly, the degree of cruelty was not sufficient to justify prohibition. However, as has been pointed out by one hon. Member, the Committee also recommended that all wild animals should be brought within the provision of the Protection of Animals Act, with special provisions to the effect that hunting, coursing, capture, destruction or attempted destruction of any wild animal should be lawful while conducted under rules approved by a Minister and not accompanied by the infliction of unnecessary suffering
  I see the hon. Member for Gainsborough nodding his head, but he knows as well as I do that this is a very diffi-
  46
  cult task to perform. To try to provide rules, whilst permitting the sport to continue, to ensure that there is not unnecessary cruelty has proved to be almost impossible. That is why up till now this part of the Report of" the Scott Henderson Committee has not been followed by legislation.
  On the other hand, the Committee felt it right to recommend that the National Coursing Club should take steps to ensure the immediate dispatch of a hare if still alive after being seized by the dogs. More obscurely—this is where the Report is slightly contradictory in these two paragraphs—the Committee added that it made no specific recommendations as to the continuation of this sport.
  I want to draw particular attention to the Committee's conclusion that coursing causes no more suffering than shooting. In itself, this does not tell us much about the amount of suffering involved. The important point is that the suffering involved in coursing is unnecessary and that it has no value for control.
  It may be suggested that the Committee's review of the sport is now out of date and there should be a further inquiry. I doubt whether this is necessary, for the Report does ample justice to the arguments on either side.
  I have never seen hare coursing and make no claims whatever to be able to advise the House about the suffering involved. I have read the Report and the literature which no doubt has been sent to other hon. Members. I am well aware that sentimentality—I am not saying that this is in any way wrong; where would the House be without sentiment—often complicates questions of protection of animals. However, I have been impressed by the view of the Scott Henderson Committee that the risk of cruelty is significant if officials are not in a position to intervene once a hare is seized.
  It has seemed to me that in the ordinary circumstances of this sport there is, to say the least, a very small margin indeed for the unknown factor to transform a slight degree of suffering into something much more intense and objectionable. Taking that point, together with the point that coursing is not necessary for the control of hares, I personally

  47
  am in support of the Bill, as is my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  We listened to a rather extraordinary speech, as I thought, by the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) who often makes good speeches. He said that this sport had this to be said for it, that it did not intrude on other people who were not engaged in the sport. Was he, then, saying that cruelty is all right provided that it is done in private and not in public? That is what it seemed that his argument was.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that every night on television we could see the blood of boxers who were taking part in boxing. That is so, but boxers go into the ring voluntarily; they can please themselves whether they go into the ring and are punched about the head and on the jaw so that their blood flows. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman's speech was not up to his usual standards.
  Mr. Ramsden: I did not hear the right hon. Lady perfectly earlier. Was she saying that the Home Secretary was personally in support of the Bill?
  Miss Bacon: Yes, I said that both I and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary were personally in favour of the Bill, without committing the Government in any way.
  Mr. Tilney: Before the right hon. Lady concludes her speech, will she say exactly what is happening about the review of field sports generally?
  Miss Bacon: I am coming to that, if only hon. Members would be a little less anxious. It may be objected—it has been so objected during the debate—that to deal with hare coursing by itself is illogical, that we should deal with all the blood sports. As I have said in the House——
  Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I ask for your guidance. Am I allowed to move that the Question be put this morning?
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Heffer: If not, will you tell me what the position is, Mr. Deputy Speaker?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): I have no power to accept a Motion for Closure. At half-past twelve, if the debate is not concluded, it will be adjourned until another day.
  Miss Bacon: I am afraid, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I have made the mistake of thinking that we had until one o'clock.
  I was coming to the point about the review of field sports which is taking place. It may be argued that to deal with hare coursing by itself is illogical and that many other sports involve suffering to animals. That would be a good argument at any time for doing nothing because we cannot do everything, and we are having this review——
  It being half-past Twelve o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

REGISTRAR OF FRIENDLY SOCIETIES (TRADE UNION FUNDS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Charles R. Morris.]
12.30 p.m.
Mr. John Page: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am hopeful that when hon. Gentlemen hear the important subject of this debate, they will not fly from it with the speed with which they are doing now. I want to discuss the position of the Registrar of Friendly Societies in connection with the collection of contributions for trade union political funds and, in doing so, I want to suggest how the Registrar might be given further powers of inspection and control over the spending of general and political funds for political objectives.
I am not suggesting that the whole system of contracting in should be changed to contracting out, though I believe that opinion in the country, particularly among the large and growing number of trade unionists who do not support the present Government and the Labour Party, will bring overwhelming pressure on the next Conservative Government to make a change from contracting in to contracting out.
It is perhaps relevant at this stage to mention that, in 1926, under the system of contracting out, 77 per cent. of trade

49
unionists supported the political funds of their unions. By 1943, under the system of contracting in, the figure had dropped to 43 per cent. Now, again under contracting out, it has risen to approximately 81 per cent. There is much evidence of dissatisfaction amongst trade unionists who do not support the Labour Party, but find themselves still paying the political levy.
Largely through the activities of national and local committees of Conservative trade unionists in the constituencies and in the factories, 18 or 19 per cent. of trade unionists are now contracted out of the political levy. However, it is generally agreed that at least one in three trade unionists vote Conservative, and so those figures show that about 15 per cent. of those who could be expected to contract out do not do so. I believe that the main reason is apathy. It is partly due to fear of discrimination and intimidation within their unions and, most important of all, because they do not understand their rights of contracting out under the Trade Union Act rules.
Earlier this morning, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) was given unopposed permission to bring in a Bill dealing with this aspect, saying that an application form for union membership should always have attached to it or coming with it an application form for contracting out. Only a small number of unions carry out that practice, and I should like to draw the attention of hon. Members to the form supplied by the Association of Supervisory Staffs, Executives and Technicians.
Accompanying the application form for union membership there is a political fund exemption notice and a covering letter signed by Mr. Clive Jenkins, who knows a lot about this kind of thing, saying:
"Dear Applicant,
Here is your Membership Application. On the back is a form we are most anxious you should not fill in. It is the political fund contracting-out form."
The letter goes on:
"We want a programme in Parliament for supervisors and technicians which supplements our collective bargaining work."
I believe that that letter constitutes prima facie a breach of the political fund rules, and I look forward to hearing of an A.S.S.E.T. applicant testing the
50
validity of this document with the Registrar of Friendly Societies on the ground that undue pressure is imposed at the time of application for union membership.
There are millions of trade unionists who do not know about their rights to contract out and, in that connection, I wish to quote from a few letters which have been received by a Conservative councillor in Yorkshire who wrote a letter to his local paper last November on the subject to contracting out. He had 30 or 40 replies, all of them asking for contracting out forms. One of them, from Middlesbrough, said:
"The contracting out forms: hardly anyone who I came in contact with had ever heard of these forms. They are not advertised by the shop stewards, and nearly all I spoke to welcomed them."
I have another letter signed "Shop Steward—not Labour", with his name. He says:
"I will be most pleased if you will send me one hundred or more contracting out forms for distribution. There are nearly four hundred members in the branch of the Transport and General Workers Union which I also am a member of, and I know that a good percentage of us do not wish to support the Labour Party in any way. Our secretary insists that he has no contracting out forms, and is not bothered about getting any. However, if you send me some, I will see that they go to the proper people."
Another, from Redcar, says:
"The forms required are for myself and friends who are members of the A.E.U. We have been unable to obtain these forms from our secretary for various excuses."
Another, from Croft-on-Tees, says:
"Would you please let me have some forms for distribution? We are most grateful for your information. We did not realise that part of our weekly contribution was used as levy. We are still not aware what percentage is taken."
Yet another from Middlesbrough says:
"Will you please forward me about ten contracting out forms… Seeing as I am a member of the Conservative Party, I see no reason to support the Labour Party by paying a political levy, and a number of my friends think the same."
I have many more letters in that vein which I should like to quote, but there is not time. I believe that this is a response from only a very small number of people in answer to one letter in one local paper.
There is another growing practice which is called the "check-off" system

51
by which an employer collects trade union dues and political levy contributions at source. Those who have contracted out have to pay at the time and reclaim later, except in the Civil Service unions, where the amount of the levy is repaid in advance. This seems to be a practice——
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I must remind him and the House that in these Adjournment debates only matters for which there is some Ministerial responsibility may be raised. It is out of order to refer to matters which involve changes in legislation.
Mr. Page: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pointing out the position of the Registrar of Friendly Societies and suggesting that steps should be taken to give the Registrar greater powers——
Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. It is out of order in an Adjournment debate to make proposals which involve legislation. Adjournment debates are confined to matters of administration. The hon. Gentleman can argue that the Registrar of Friendly Societies is not carrying out his duties properly under existing law, but he cannot make proposals for changes in the law.
Mr. Page: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and will merely add that the Registrar of Friendly Societies is not sufficiently making known his powers to members of trade unions, to whom he is the appellant if they feel that there is something wrong in the handling or collection of the political levy. I suggest, therefore, that the Registrar be given power to advertise in factories and elsewhere where trade unionists work so that their attention is drawn to their ability to appeal against what might be considered the insufficient production of contracting out forms.
Attention should also be drawn to the Registrar's existing powers under the 1913 Act. The Minister should discover whether the Registrar is in a position to intervene in the check-off system, whereby a member of a trade union may be asked to pay the political levy and reclaim it later.
I turn from the system of collection to the spending of these funds. It appears
52
that the only objectives on which political funds may be spent are in connection with the election and support of Parliamentary candidates. If that is correct, it follows that a large, though unspecified, amount of the general funds of trade unions may be paid to a political party, be it the Labour Party or Conservative Party. Does the Registrar of Friendly Societies consider that further information should be given, in the accounts of trade unions, about these political funds and the objectives on which they are spent? It seems ludicrous that a payment to Labour Party funds should be considered a "non-political donation" and that that position should continue without being sufficiently appreciated by many trade unionists.
Mr. E. S. Bishop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that industry and commerce make vast donations to the Conservative Party without consulting shareholders, employees, or anybody else about them?
Mr. Page: Under the Companies Bill, which is now going through Parliament, it will be necessary for companies to explain in detail the size of any donation made to charities and political funds.
I urge the Minister to ask the Registrar of Friendly Societies whether he would find it more convenient for trade union accounts to contain exact details of payments to political parties and other amounts used for political purposes. At present, this money is given for "charities and other donations" and appears as a global figure in the accounts. I should have thought that the Registrar would wish to have fuller information, at least parallel with that envisaged under the Companies Bill.
I am not raising this matter in an anti-trade union frame of mind, but merely campaigning against the support of political parties by those who do not believe in the objectives of those parties. I fear that many trade unionists have insufficient knowledge of their powers of appeal to the Registrar of Friendly Societies in connection with the collection of funds for political purposes. We need modern, forward-looking, production-minded trade unionists. I urge them to make a final gesture of contracting out; that is, their affiliation to the Labour Party.
12.46 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): The hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) said that he was not campaigning against trade unions, but I must leave hon. Members to form their own opinion about that. He prefaced his remarks by informing us that he was in favour of the contracting in, rather than the contracting out, system and hoped that the next Conservative Government would change the law accordingly. The Conservatives had 13 years in office but decided not to change the law. The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) introduced a ten-minute-rule Bill directed to this point in December last, but his proposal was decisively rejected by the House, by 281 to 131 votes.
The hon. Member for Harrow, West referred to a notice which, he said, had been given by A.S.S.E.T. to joining members when being supplied with a copy of the contracting out form. That, in fact, goes further than the legal requirement, as I shall show, on the part of that union. I therefore cannot see how there can be anything wrong or contrary to the rules in A.S.S.E.T. taking that step or in A.S.S.E.T. telling joining members that the union strongly supports the Labour Party and hopes that they will not contract out.
I come to the question of the obligations of unions, particularly in relation to the supplying of these forms. The Registrar of Friendly Societies has no power to require information or to lay down rules otherwise than empowered by the trade union Acts, particularly the Trade Union Act, 1913, Section 5(1) of which states:
"A member of a trade union may at any time give notice … that he objects to contribute to the political fund of the union, and …notice shall be given to the members of the union acquainting them that each member has a right to be exempt from contributing to the political fund of the union, and that a form of exemption notice can be obtained by or on behalf of a member either by application at or by post from the head office or any branch office of the union or the office of the Registrar of Friendly Societies."
That provision is embodied in the model rules provided by the Registrar and they are followed by unions, only with such alterations as the Registrar approves.
54
The model rules require that a copy of the rules shall be supplied forthwith to every new member of a union and also that a copy shall be supplied to any member at his request. Thus, every person joining a union, and every member of a union on request, has a copy of these rules. They tell him of his right to contract out and how he can get a copy of the form from the union or—if he does not wish to get involved or if there is any argument with the union—direct from the Registrar of Friendly Societies. These rules also tell him that if he is aggrieved in any way and thinks that there has been any breach of the rules, he may complain to the Registrar of Friendly Societies, who may make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks fit. If need be, that order can be enforced in the county court.
I cannot see that there is any requirement or need for these provisions to be further advertised. As a result of the rules, they are and must be brought to the attention of every joining member. I do not think that the Registrar would want power to advertise these matters in factories. After all, he is in judicial position in relation to these rules and has to receive and hear complaints as they may be made.
The hon. Gentleman asked for fuller disclosure of how the moneys were spent. The power of the Registrar to make rules in these matters is contained in Section 16 of the 1871 Act which requires a registered union to send to the Registrar a general statement—and those are the words—of the
"receipts, funds, effects, and expenditure …and shall show separately the expenditure in respect of the several objects of the trade union, and shall be prepared and made out up to such date, in such form, and shall comprise such particulars, as the registrar may from time to time require."
Mr. John Page: Would it be possible for the Registrar under the law as it stands to ask for the particulars to be expanded? Could he ask for wider details of expenditure, and could those details be published?
Mr. MacDermot: The hon. Gentleman has already asked me that question and I am about to seek to answer it. The annual return form calls for expenditure on political objects to be specified, and this is done under general headings to the

55
satisfaction of the Registrar. If he wanted more detailed particulars, he could ask for them. In fact, most unions publish in their accounts, which are distributed to their members, information in much greater detail than is called for or required in the annual returns.
Information about grants to charities and so on from the general fund are included in the returns, along with fees to Congress and trades councils. There is not, that I am aware of, any pressure or requirement, or general body of feeling, that more detailed information ought to be given. Certainly the Registrar has not thought it necessary to call for more detailed returns.
I imagine that any member of a trade union who wants particulars of the charities and other bodies which have been supported is able to get them. The suggestion that members of trade unions either can or do out of the general fund make contributions to political parties is wholly misconceived. That would be quite wrong and is not done.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: The hon. and learned Gentleman will find evidence in the discussions on the Companies Bill to show trade union support for political objectives out of general funds.
Mr. MacDermot: The hon. Gentleman is a little wide in his phraseology. His hon. Friend's suggestion was that contributions could be made directly to the Labour Party or the Conservative Party. That is erroneous, as I am saying. There are other bodies, which no doubt both companies and trade union support, which some might think to have a political content in their work, but that is quite a different matter. What is being suggested is that in some way statutory requirements about political funds either can or are being—I am not quite sure what the suggestion is—sidestepped by the making of contributions direct from the general fund. All I am making clear is that that cannot be done.
I wonder why the hon. Gentleman is making these suggestions not only about the specific point, but about the whole subject. What complaints has he received? He has read letters from members saying that they were not aware
56
of their rights. I have pointed out that they must have been told their rights when joining the union. They may not have bothered to read the rules which were given to them, but that is a different matter and it is open to those who share the hon. Gentleman's view to take such action as they think right to try to publicise it further I do not see how the machinery of the law could do more than put in people's hands a clear printed statement of the rules setting out all their rights.
There are more than 1,500,000 trade unionists who have contracted out, and the evidence given by the Registrar to the Royal Commission on Trade Unions was that some 20 to 30 letters of complaints a year were received. Of those, he said, some were obviously misconceived while the majority of the rest were satisfactorily settled after correspondence with the union. Complaints necessitating a formal hearing, he said, did not average more than one or two in a year.
That is the sum total of the complaints. What is the mischief which the hon. Gentleman is trying to remedy? What is his evidence that any such mischief exists? I suggest that the only conclusion to be drawn is that it is the hon. Gentleman who is trying to create mischief where none exists.
12.58 p.m.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) was perfectly justified and should be fully supported in his complaints. It is of the utmost importance that the rules relating to the political levy should be administered scrupulously fairly and fearlessly, and there is a body of opinion in the country which thinks that that does not happen.
My hon. Friend brought forward letters from trade unionists who said that they did not know that they could contract out of the political levy. From time to time, hon. Members must receive letters of that type in their postbag, as I do. I try to explain to my constituents what their legal rights are. There is no doubt that among the 10 million people employed in factories, there are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, who do not know their rights, who have never

57
had the opportunity of having their rights explained to them.
Mr. MacDermot: How can the hon. Gentleman say that they have never had an opportunity of having their rights explained to them when they must have been given a copy of the rules setting out, in very simple and clear English, what their rights are?
Mr. Gresham Cooke: The hon. and learned Gentleman is a lawyer and has great opportunity to study the small print throughout the rules, but he cannot say that every person who works in a factory will study the small print on the back of the rule book.
58
This matter has to be highlighted because it has been highlighted in the debates on the Companies Bill the other way round. Companies are to have to make an exact disclosure of contributions which they make not only to political parties, but to all sorts of what might be called fringe political organisations, and the amounts will have to appear in every company's accounts, and at least a total given to the shareholders. If there is any doubt among the public that this provision is not being fairly applied throughout industry and on both sides of industry——
It being One o'clock, DEPUTY SPEAKER suspended the sitting till half-past Two o'clock, pursuant to Order.
Sitting resumed at 2.30 p.m.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOCIAL SECURITY

    Rights and Entitlements
    Mr. Molloyasked the Minister of Social Security what arrangements exist between her Department and local authorities to acquaint people of their rights and entitlements in the sphere of social security.
    The Minister of Social Security (Miss Margaret Herbison): Local authorities help to publicise the cash benefits administered by my Department. In turn, we give assistance to local authorities who wish to give publicity to the health and welfare services which they offer. In addition, my local officers keep in touch with the local authorities' officers responsible for health and welfare services.
    Mr. Molloy: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Many people are aware of the good relations which exist between my right hon. Friend's Department and the authorities. What other facilities has she in mind to assist local authorities in the work of her Department?
    Miss Herbison: Where a local authority wishes to draw attention to local health and welfare services, my Department is very ready to arrange to include a suitable notice with the award notice. A hundred local authorities have accepted this, of which the Ealing authority is one. I shall be delighted if more take advantage of this offer.

    Sickness Benefit (Personal Case)
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Social Security, as she has disallowed the claim for sickness benefit from Mr. S. H. Langford, of 32 Abbey Foregate, relating to his contribution record for the year ended 5th June, 1966, and as the appropriate contribution card, signed by Mr. Langford, who has been an insured person for 40 years, was deposited in the receiving box on the gate of her office in Shrewsbury by Mrs. Langford, what form of acknowledgment is sent on receipt of completed cards.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Social Security (Mr. Norman Pentland): When a stamped card is sent in for exchange, a new card issued at the time of the exchange is accepted as sufficient evidence of the surrender of the expired card, but an official receipt is issued if requested. I have written to the hon. Member about the individual case.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Will the hon. Gentleman accept my thanks for having reached a sensible decision on this case?
    Mr. Pentland: Thank you very much.

    Supplementary Pensions
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Social Security whether she will amend her Regulations so that persons over 21 years of age who are entitled to supplementary pensions do not lose this right if they rent accommodation from their own family and pay a contribution to their parents who have no legal obligations to support them.
    Mr. Pentland: There is no need for such an amendment. Living with his parents does not prevent a claimant from receiving benefit.

    Lorry Drivers (Unemployment Benefit)
    Mr. Parkasked the Minister of Social Security if she will amend the
    National Insurance Regulations, so that lorry drivers, deprived of their licences for traffic offences committed in a private capacity whilst driving their own cars, will no longer be liable to lose unemployment benefit.
    Miss Herbison: No, Sir. Whether a traffic offence which leads to a person's dismissal from his employment constitutes misconduct for the purpose of disqualification for unemployment benefit is properly a question for determination on the facts of the individual case by the independent adjudicating authorities who decide all claims for unemployment benefit.
    Mr. Park: I thank my right hon. Friend for her Answer. Does she not appreciate the injustice of a situation in which for an offence committed in his own time and totally unrelated to his employment a lorry driver may lose his claim to unemployment benefit for a

    61
    period of up to six weeks? Will she look at the Regulations and, if possible, amend them so that in future unemployment benefit shall be withheld only for offences directly connected with a person's occupation?
    Miss Herbison: I assure my hon. Friend that I have looked very closely at this because one of the trade unions concerned met me to discuss the matter. It is always very difficult to define misconduct. Of course, this applies not only to this kind of case but to other cases. That is why we have the appeal machinery. I can only say to my hon. Friend, as I said to the trade union concerned, that the man should always exercise his rights of appeal right up to Commissioner level.

    Earnings and Contributions
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Social Security whether, in order to relate unemployment and sickness benefits to earnings, she intends also to relate contributions to earnings.
    Miss Herbison: Earnings-related supplements to unemployment and sickness benefits are already financed from earnings-related contributions. The National Insurance contribution arrangements as a whole are being studied as part of the Government's comprehensive review of the social security scheme.
    Mr. Longden: I thank the Minister for that reply. It is now as long ago as 22nd November, 1965, when she said that she hoped it would not be very long before she could tell us what the new scheme is. Will she see that contributions are related to benefits, because otherwise the insurance principle will become weaker than it now is?
    Miss Herbison: I can give the assurance to the hon. Member that when we finally consider what the contributions should be we shall give very serious thought to making them earnings-related.

    Working Wives (Benefits)
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Minister of Social Security if she will take action to give working wives, with husbands receiving pensions or other social security payments, the full single person's benefit in unemployment or sickness.
    Miss Herbison: This is only one aspect of the special position of married women in the National Insurance scheme, which is being examined in our general review.
    Mr. Roberts: While I am thankful that this is under review, would not my right hon. Friend agree that this is yet another example of discrimination between women? How many women are in this position? Can she give any logical reason why when a woman is the major bread-winner she should be treated differently from a male?
    Miss Herbison: Where the woman is the breadwinner and the husband is benefiting under her contributions, she is treated in exactly the same way as a man. On the question of married women generally, they have the right that no man or single woman has of opting out of the insurance scheme altogether. We find that of 4½ million married women at work only about 1·1 million pay the full insurance contribution.

    Rate Rebates (Supplementary Benefits)
    Mr. Hamlingasked the Minister of Social Security what representations have been made to her about the impact of supplementary benefits on the receipt of rate rebates; and what reply she has sent.
    Mr. Pentland: A number of suggestions have been made that people receiving supplementary benefit ought to be given rate rebates. The replies have explained that this would mean double provision, since the full rates are allowed for in assessing the amount of supplementary benefit.
    Mr. Hamling: Is my hon. Friend aware mat in a recent case the manager of the Social Security office in Woolwich was most helpful, as he normally is, but will my hon. Friend take note that a lot of members of the public are not aware of their rights under the heading of rate rebates?
    Mr. Pentland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said, but whenever a person receiving supplementary benefit would be better off with a rate rebate instead of supplementary benefit he is always advised of this by our officials.
    Mr. Winnick: Is my hon. Friend aware that I recently wrote to the Minister about some cases in Croydon and that there is still a certain amount of dissatisfaction because council tenants in a few cases are receiving less than they originally could? Will this matter in Croydon be looked into?
    Mr. Pentland: Yes, certainly I will look into that.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Has the hon. Gentleman had representations from ex-Service men's bodies about taking account of war pensions in full for the purposes of disqualifying applicants for rate rebates?
    Mr. Pentland: I must say no without committing myself too far, but I should like to check on that.

    Single Women
    Mr. Hamlingasked the Minister of Social Security what representations have been made to her since the beginning of March about the payment of a special social security benefit to single women with adult dependants; and what reply she has sent.
    Miss Herbison: Apart from the deputation which my hon. Friend brought to see me on 9th March, I have received four letters on this subject. In reply I have drawn attention to the social security benefits already available to women in these circumstances who need them and also to their dependants.
    Mr. Hamling: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was helpful in his Budget on this subject and we hope that very soon she will emulate his progressive attitude?
    Miss Herbison: I think the concession which has been made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be helpful in many cases, but my hon. Friend will know that at present there are 11,000 women who are benefiting under our supplementary benefits scheme.
    Mr. Dean: Will the right hon. Lady bear in mind the great sacrifices which many of these women make, particularly when their dependants are disabled?
    Miss Herbison: Yes, it was because this Government realised that that the Chancellor made his announcement in his Budget statement.

    Lower Paid Workers
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Minister of Social Security if she will now take steps to assist the redistribution of income by increasing social security payments and by enabling lower-paid workers to obtain social security benefit.
    Miss Herbison: I would refer my hon. Friend to what I said in the House on these matters in the debate on 20th April.—[Vol. 745, c. 852.]
    Mr. Roberts: Does not the Minister agree that the extension of social security benefits to lower-paid workers is a vital part of an effective incomes policy? Does she not agree that there should be a national minimum wage below which earnings should not be allowed to fall?
    Miss Herbison: This Question does not deal with a national minimum wage. I am not responsible for that side of the problem. What I am responsible for as a Minister in the Government is to find a method whereby we shall help those families when the father is in work or out of work. I said in the debate that we shall make our announcement in the summer.
    Mr. Dean: Does the right hon. Lady realise that in the debate to which she has referred there was contradictory emphasis in what she said and what the Minister without Portfolio said? Can she see that this confusion, which is widely shared outside, is cleared up?
    Miss Herbison: I add no more to saying that we shall announce in the summer our plans for dealing with this very important matter.

    Wage Stop (Incapacitated Persons)
    Mr. Moyleasked the Minister of Social Security whether she will alter the rule concerning the wage stop for incapacitated people so that it relates to the wage they were earning before incapacitation rather than what they could earn subsequent to incapacitation.
    Miss Herbison: No, Sir. As I explained to the House on 24th April, the right way to help the man with low earning capacity, whether he is unemployed or working, is by some form of family endowment.
    Mr. Moyle: I do not wish to disagree with my right hon. Friend in the last part of her reply, but would not she consider relaxing the rule in respect of some severely handicapped people, such as the blind, who are likely to want to work in order to maintain their mental equilibrium in any case?
    Miss Herbison: Those who are blind and are in receipt of supplementary benefit receive special concessions which others do not receive. If an attempt were made to find suitable criteria for saying when a man was disabled or not disabled, we should come up against the difficulty of the man who was in full-time work but who, because of his mental capacity or otherwise, was unable to make more than a man would get on supplementary benefit. The only way of dealing with this is by a form of family endowment for all of them.
    Mr. Tinn: Will my right hon. Friend consider, in the case of a man against whom the wage stop has operated and who obtains work at that lower rate, making some payment to bring him up to a more reasonable living wage? This would encourage such people to find work and not penalise them as at present.
    Miss Herbison: The Question has highlighted the very great difficulties inherent in this. The only way of overcoming them is by ensuring that the family does not suffer when the man is in or out of work.

    Late Claims
    Mr. Berryasked the Minister of Social Security whether in the case of retirement pensioners' benefits, she will enlarge the period in which late claims for benefits can be made.
    19. Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Social Security whether she will now alter the rule which prevents a person who claims late from getting more than six months' arrears of benefit.
    Miss Herbison: I have today referred this and related National Insurance time limits to the National Insurance Advisory Committee for consideration and report. For the convenience of hon. Members, I will, with permission, circulate the terms of reference to the Committee in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Berry: Does the right hon. Lady realise that in the case of retired pensioners there is quite a difference from the sickness claims? Would she bear in mind that there are many people, despite all the publicity which she rightly gives to their entitlement to make claims, who do not realise this? Will she deal sympathetically with this problem?
    Miss Herbison: The number of retirement pensioners affected is very small. But it does not matter how small it is: it can cause hardship to individuals. The whole question must be examined by my Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Murray: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this news will be widely welcomed. How long will the Advisory Committee take to report?
    Miss Herbison: The Advisory Committee will be advertising and people who have any views on the matter will have three months in which to make their representations. I always find that the Advisory Committee works as speedily as possible.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Does not the hon. Lady agree that the best practical answer for these retirement pensioners is to increase pensions generally? Will she be able to tell the House soon when she intends to do this?
    Miss Herbison: That is a completely different question. If the hon. Gentleman would understand what Questions are being asked me, he would realise that what he suggests would not help the man who fails to make his application.
    Following are the terms of reference:
    To review those provisions of the National Insurance Act 1965 and regulations made under it which, subject to certain limited exceptions, prevent benefit being paid retrospectively for more than six months, and extinguish the right to benefit if payment is not obtained within six months: and to report.

    Selective Employment Tax
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Social Security how many registered disabled were in receipt of unemployment benefit at the latest date for which figures are available; and how many were in receipt of unemployment benefit immediately before the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax.
    Mr. Pentland: No records are kept of the numbers of registered disabled persons drawing unemployment benefit. However, I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that between August, 1966, and March, 1967, the numbers of such men and women registered as unemployed, whether entitled to benefit or not, increased proportionately much less than did the total numbers registered as unemployed.
    Sir G. Sinclair: Should not the Parliamentary Secretary have accurate figures of this group of people if the Ministry is adequately to help them? They are some of the people most needing help as a result of S.E.T.
    Mr. Pentland: We have no figures in answer to the direct Question. The Ministry of Labour has no evidence that the introduction of S.E.T. has caused any discrimination by employers against disabled persons.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: Does not the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that part of the difficulty we have in dealing with these matters arises because of the shortage of information? Will he take steps to liaise with the Ministry of Labour and co-ordinate better the knowledge and information which we need? Will he reconsider the question of setting up a research unit, as suggested from these benches many months ago?
    Mr. Pentland: There is liaison between my Department and the Ministry of Labour. In regard to this aspect of the question, it was ever thus under both Conservative and Labour Administrations.
    Mr. Molloy: On the general question of the problems that afflict the already afflicted disabled, has my hon. Friend taken full cognisance of some of the proposals put to him by the Disablement Income Group?
    Mr. Pentland: Yes. All of these proposals are being considered.
    Mr. Deanasked the Minister of Social Security how many people over retirement age were in receipt of National Insurance benefits owing to being unable to find employment, at the latest date for which figures are available, and immediately before the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax, respectively.
    Mr. Pentland: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Dean: Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that this is very unsatisfactory? Does he not recognise that a tax on the employment of the old and, indeed, of the disabled is a bad tax? Does not he require more information so that he can make effective representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
    Mr. Pentland: The question of a tax is for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Intravenous Fluids (Supplies)
    Mr. Gurdenasked the Minister of Health what representations he has received about the supply of essential intravenous fluids; and what action he has taken.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Kenneth Robinson): My attention has been drawn to difficulties in some areas, including Birmingham, and steps have been taken to ensure the fair distribution of supplies.
    Mr. Gurden: The Minister has acknowledged the grave shortage of pharmacists, certainly in the Midlands. What can he tell us about the closing-down of the Cuxson Gerrard Manufactory? What is he doing about the whole problem? As I think you once said, Mr. Speaker, "The question is: what is the answer?"
    Mr. Robinson: According to my information, supplies from existing commercial sources are gradually increasing. Although the general situation is still difficult, according to my information it is not critical. On the question of the shortage of pharmacists, I refer the hon. Gentleman to my hon. Friend's reply to his Question on 13th February and also to the reply given to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) on 24th April.

    Health Check Weeks
    Mrs. Joyce Butlerasked the Minister of Health if he will send a circular to medical officers of health asking them to examine the possibility of undertaking

    69
    periodic public health screening campaigns on the lines of the recent experiment in Rotherham.
    Mr. K. Robinson: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 14th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick).—[Vol. 744, c. 275.]
    Mrs. Butler: In view of the very keen public response and the enthusiasm of the medical officers and their staff in areas where these services have been carried out, and the significant results obtained, will not my right hon. Friend look at this matter again and regard these as very valuable pilot schemes towards a preventive health service which should be encouraged in every possible way?
    Mr. Robinson: My department, in collaboration with the Medical Research Council, has for many years taken the initiative in arranging research to establish the value of screening for various diseases. We are financing a number of studies. I and my advisers are in close touch with the Medical Officer of Health over his health weeks in Rotherham and we await a report of the findings of the most recent week.
    Mr. Winnick: Does not there seem to be a great deal of hesitation and reluctance on the part of the Ministry to encourage such schemes? Were not a number of illnesses found during this health week which otherwise would probably not have been discovered for some time?
    Mr. Robinson: I have told my hon. Friend already that my Standing Advisory Medical Committee tells me that screening of the general public should be undertaken only for conditions which can clearly and accurately be diagnosed and for which effective treatment is available. It is within that framework that we are studying what extensions would be desirable in the preventive field.
    Mr. Braine: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, but is he satisfied that there are enough public health medical and other staff to ensure effective screening programmes where these are thought to be desirable and to
    70
    ensure the follow-up which must be done if there is to be effective treatment?
    Mr. Robinson: There are several considerations to be taken into account. There is the burden on the existing hospital service which may result, and the question whether screening is most appropriately undertaken within the framework of the general medical service or the community health service. I assure the hon. Gentleman that all these matters are being studied.
    Sir G. Sinclair: In view of the public response to screening in this limited problem, what plans has the Minister for expanding the training of the technicians who must support the medical practitioners in carrying out any such screening?
    Mr. Robinson: I take it that the hon. Gentleman is referring to screening for cervical cancer, though the Question was put in a wider context. I assure him that training is going on satisfactorily, and the number of trained technicians is increasing rapidly week by week.
    Mrs. Butler: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Domiciliary Physiotherapy Service
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists has now proposed the establishment of an effective domiciliary physiotherapy service for relieving the pressure on ambulance services, hospital physiotherapy departments and assisting more people to return to a useful and independent life; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Snow: The Society has made no such proposal to my right hon. Friend.
    Dame Irene Ward: As the professional organisation, on whose council I sit, supports the mobile physiotherapy unit, may I ask the hon. Gentleman, following on Question No. 24, whether the Minister will receive a deputation, as is usual when a Member of Parliament requests it, so that all this important issue can be properly and adequately considered? This is an answer which I was asked to get.
    Mr. Snow: The hon. Lady knows that any Member of Parliament will be readily received by my right hon. Friend, but, when it comes to other deputations from outside, there are other considerations to be taken into account. Furthermore, the hon. Lady will, no doubt, be aware that, subject to Mr. Speaker's guidance, there may be an opportunity to discuss this matter later this week.
    Dame Irene Ward: Jolly good, too.

    Pharmaceutical Industry (Exports)
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Health if he will state the contribution to British export earnings made by the pharmaceutical industry during the past year, as compared with five years and 10 years ago, respectively.
    Mr. K. Robinson: The value of exports of "Medicinal and Pharmaceutical Products" during 1966 was £66·78 million. The comparable figures for 1961 and 1956 were £48·76 million and £35·94 million.
    Mr. Fisher: Is it not very much to the credit of the industry that, according to my information, its export earnings rose in four years by £20 million, from £55 million in 1962 to over £75 million last year? Will the right hon. Gentleman take this into account when studying the recommendations of the Sainsbury Committee?
    Mr. Robinson: I shall take all relevant considerations into account when I receive that report. This is a good record. I think that the hon. Gentleman's figures and mine differ slightly. As a percentage of total exports, in ten years, the exports of pharmaceuticals have risen from 1·11 per cent. to 1·32 per cent. To complete the picture, I should remind the hon. Gentleman that there are offset payments which bring the net contribution to the balance of payments down in 1963 to about £35·5 million.
    Mr. Braine: I am sure that the Minister will bear in mind the creditable achievements of this growth industry. Can he say when the Sainsbury Report will become available, and when the House will have an opportunity to discuss it?
    Mr. Robinson: The Report will become available this summer, and I
    72
    should like to await its receipt before I answer the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

    Public Health Medical Officers
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to remedy the shortage of public health medical officers.
    Mr. K. Robinson: There is a shortage of doctors generally, but it appears that local health authorities are recruiting a reasonable proportion of the doctors available. Steps are being taken to increase the intake of medical schools.
    Mr. Braine: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Mallaby Committee considered that not only was there a shortage in the public health medical service but that it was made worse because doctors in it are at a disadvantage over remuneration compared with general practitioners and hospital doctors? It there not a strong case for setting up an independent inquiry into the remuneration and terms of service of those doctors?
    Mr. Robinson: No, Sir. I am consulting the local authority associations about the recommendations in the Mallaby Report, but I would not think that the figures bear out what the hon. Gentleman said. Between May, 1962, and 1966, local authorities recruited about 12 per cent. of those doctors becoming available, although they employ only about 4 per cent. of the total active medical population. Therefore, they have been getting more than their share.
    Mr. Braine: Is not the Minister making light of this? Is he not aware of the very deep resentment felt among public medical officers that their remuneration and terms of service are not being regarded with any degree of urgency? These doctors are essential to the National Health Service, so why cannot they be treated in the same way as other doctors?
    Mr. Robinson: The hon. Gentleman knows as well as any hon. Member that it has been maintained successfully on several occasions before the Industrial Court that the salaries of medical officers of health are related to the salaries of other chief officers of local authorities. A report on those salaries is

    73
    expected from the National Board for Prices and Incomes in the summer, and I am satisfied that it is right for the management side of the Whitley Council to await it before making an offer.

  HOSPITALS

    General Practitioner Maternity Unit (Leicester)
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that an application has been made to the Sheffield Regional Hospital Board for the establishment of a Cardiff type general practitioner maternity unit in Leicester;and if, in view of the support which this has received from the medical profession in Leicester and the success of the Cardiff unit, he will see that the unit is speedily installed.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Julian Snow): We are aware of this proposal, which the Sheffield Regional Hospital Board is considering.
    Sir B. Janner: Being aware of the proposal, is my hon. Friend not aware that this is a very inexpensive way of dealing with a very important matter and that the Cardiff unit has turned out to be extremely useful to everybody's satisfaction? Will he urge the Sheffield people to do something about this in Leicester?
    Mr. Snow: I have no reason to suppose that the Sheffield Board is not examining the matter urgently. The Cardiff unit is an interesting experiment full of promise, but there has had to be reconsideration of the economics of staff in the light of experience

    Bromsgrove General Hospital
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the waiting time for urgent cases to be admitted to Bromsgrove General Hospital is on average three months; and what steps he is taking to prevent such delays.
    Mr. Snow: For urgent acute cases there is no such delay; for geriatric and chronic sick patients there is difficulty in finding accommodation, but on 24th April only four such patients on the waiting list were classified as "urgent" none having been
    74
    so classified for more than 18 days; one of them has since been admitted.
    Mr. Dance: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an elderly constituent of mine died in tragic circumstances while awaiting admission to this hospital? Further, is he aware that, with the growth of the new town of Redditch, this problem will escalate? When are we to have an announcement of when the new hospital is to be started and, more important, when it is to be completed?
    Mr. Snow: I have read the correspondence between the hon. Gentleman and the regional hospital board about his elderly constituent, and I say at once that it was a very sad case. A number of beds have been taken out of commission because of the upgrading of another hospital in order to make it available as a district general hospital. The Dudley and Stourbridge Hospital Management Committee is considering what help it can give by making some more accommodation available to the mid-Worcestershire area.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is it not time that the whole question of admission to hospital was looked into? If a person can pay, he can get priority in admission. Is it not time that our National Health Service put an end to this sort of thing?
    Mr. Snow: The question of queue jumping, if one may so describe it, is being urgently considered at present by my right hon. Friend.

    New Hospital, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Health if he has considered the representations by the medical profession against the building of a new general hospital at Newcastle-upon-Tyne instead of expanding the present hospitals; whether he is aware that the regional hospital board has refused to receive a deputation; and if he will instruct the regional hospital board to receive a deputation to discuss the matter.
    Mr. K. Robinson: These representations have been fully considered both by the regional hospital board and my Department. With regard to the second part of the Question, I understand that no such request has been made to the regional board.
    Dame Irene Ward: Without taking sides on one side or the other, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that there seems to be a tendency in his Department to accept rather dictatorial powers, which are adversely commented on by the Press, and will he in future see that, when deputations are requested, from whatever source—provided that they are from suitable people—they Will be accepted?
    Mr. Robinson: I could not give the blanket undertaking for which the hon. Lady asks, and neither could I accept her accusation of dictatorial behaviour on the part of my Department. I can tell her, however, that, in this matter, if the consultant staff request a meeting with the regional hospital board, I have every reason to believe that their request will be granted. I should add that hospital consultant staff have been continuously involved in the formulation of the plan for Newcastle since planning first began in 1955.
    Mr. Bob Brown: Will my right hon. Friend accept that neither his Department nor the regional hospital board has come very well out of the unseemly Press "run-up" which there has been on this issue? Would it not be a good thing to advise regional hospital boards to concentrate on better public relations work?
    Mr. Robinson: It is true that, in the present discussion or argument in Newcastle, the strong case of the regional hospital board has been insufficiently publicised. I hope that it is now in process of putting this right.

    Hospital Patients (Length of Stay)
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Health how long the average patient remains in hospital in Great Britain; whether he has any plans to reduce this period; and how it compares with the average length of hospitalisation in comparable countries about which he has information.
    Mr. K. Robinson: In the acute specialties the average length of stay in England and Wales has already been reduced from 16·8 days in 1957 to 12·3 days in 1966. The hospital service is working to reduce the period still more, to the extent com-
    76
    patible with the highest standards of medical care. Valid comparisons with other countries are difficult, but comparative studies are in progress.
    Mr. Fisher: Is there not still a considerable discrepancy between different regions, and, if the hospitalisation time in the worst areas were reduced to that in the best, would not this release many beds and clear the waiting lists in many areas?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, Sir, I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman says; but he will know that length of stay in hospital reflects, to a considerable extent, the pattern of medical practice and is largely decided on the basis of clinical judgment. My Department's guidance to hospitals is aimed at the more economical use of hospital beds, and the trend is one of decreasing length of stay.
    Mr. Pavitt: Has there not been a tremendous increase in the number of cases which we have been able to deal with in our hospitals over the past ten years, and is this not due in no small measure to the fact that, since the inception of the Service, we have doubled the number of nurses employed in it?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, Sir; both points which my hon. Friend makes are broadly correct.
    Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan: But has not the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) great validity? One accepts the need for total clinical freedom, but, in the Minister's view, are enough steps taken to draw the attention of the different regions and different specialties to improvements effected in other areas?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, Sir; this is done periodically. It has been done in the past, but perhaps the time has come to do it again.

    Nurses (Charges)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that a nurse has to pay a fee of six guineas to get on to the State Register, and that she has to pay a similar sum to sit her final examinations; and what steps he intends to take to reduce or eliminate these charges.
    Mr. Snow: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend approved these fees last year and before doing so satisfied himself that they were necessary to enable the General Nursing Council to meet its rising costs.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my hon. Friend tell us what these sums are used for? Does he not agree that they are completely out of proportion to the miserable salaries these girls are paid? If the Minister can sanction and approve them, presumably he can equally reduce or eliminate them and, if he can, will he not do so?
    Mr. Snow: The registration fees are scaled to take account of the overall cost of administration of the Council. If it is of any comfort to my hon. Friend, I can tell him that comparable professions employing ladies like these charge somewhat higher registration fees. In any case, these fees are known three years in advance of the actual demand.
    Earl of Dalkeith: What is the overall sum of money involved in the average year? Would the Minister agree that it would be worth while removing any form of disincentive to getting nurses into this essential profession?
    Mr. Snow: I could not give that figure without notice, but I should not have thought that these fees are a disincentive, although I agree that it is a matter which should be watched.
    Mr. Pavitt: As hospital boards, management committees and boards of governors have a right to meet certain costs, what would be my hon. Friend's advice to them on whether they should meet these charges for their own nurses?
    Mr. Snow: We shall look into that question.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Is the Minister aware that a B.O.A.C. senior captain earning nearly £6,000 a year pays less to obtain his licence than do the nurses for their registration, and will he look at the matter again?
    Mr. Snow: The subsidy for a commercial enterprise such as B.O.A.C. is not a matter for comparison with an organisation such as the General Nursing Council.
    Mr. Hamilton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatis-
    78
    factory nature of those replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Nurse Tutors
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Health what representations he has received from the Royal College of Nursing on the Salmon Committee's proposals for improving the status of nurse tutors; and what action he is taking in the light of these representations.
    Mr. K. Robinson: The Royal College, in commenting on the proposals, accepted that in recognising the needs, as students, of nurses in training, the Salmon recommendations were a step in the right direction and would to some extent improve the status of nurse tutors. They did not agree that the grading proposed for tutors was right. This is a question which I hope that experience gained in the pilot schemes will help to resolve.
    Mr. Braine: Does that reply mean that the dissenting views of the Royal College of Nursing on this score were not taken into account before the Minister wrote to hospital boards as he promised to do last March?
    Mr. Robinson: Certainly they have been taken into account, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we are embarking on certain pilot schemes. I am prepared to reconsider the matter in the light of the experience of those pilot schemes.

    Domestic Duties
    Mr. Hollandasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to ensure that nurses in National Health Service hospitals do not have to spend time on such domestic duties as sorting linen and washing up after patients' meals.
    Mr. Snow: A sub-committee of my right hon. Friend's Standing Nursing Advisory Committee has been studying this question and is expected to report shortly.
    Mr. Holland: But would not the Minister agree that, in addition to being a misuse of skill, this practice is a deterrent to nursing recruitment and also a contributory factor to wastage? Does he not feel that the situation justifies a nationwide campaign to recruit more domestic

    79
    staff for hospitals, without waiting for the Report?
    Mr. Snow: If the hon. Gentleman has a case in mind, perhaps he would let us know about it. In 1963 hospital authorities were advised that the counting of soiled linen in hospital wards should cease. My right hon. Friend has recommended hospital authorities to provide central washing-up departments in all new hospitals, and in others where practicable.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Will the Minister take note of what has been said in the House today, and that there is such a considerable shortage of nurses that the whole situation of the nurses—their work, pay and everything else—should be taken fully into account? Will he show some interest in the matter?
    Mr. Snow: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman could have heard my original Answer to his hon. Friend. In any event, the recruiting of nurses is encouraging.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the report to which my hon. Friend alluded in his original Answer be made available to the House and the public?
    Mr. Snow: I think that that would be possible. I should like to consider the matter first, but there seems to be no objection.

    Ancillary Staff (Report)
    Mr. Deanasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the recent report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes criticising the efficiency of certain aspects of the National Health Service; what action he proposes to take to remedy the situation; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. K. Robinson: I have noted the Board's comments on management and organisation of ancillary staff in the hospital service. It is my constant concern to secure improvement in these fields, in a wider context than that with which the Board were concerned.
    Mr. Dean: Bearing in mind that the National Health Service is one of the biggest employers in the country and that the National Board for Prices and Incomes drew attention to deficiencies in organisation and the use of modern labour-management techniques, would the Minister consider the possibility of
    80
    a much wider use of management consultants?
    Mr. Robinson: I think the Board recognised that some of its comments on the organisation and management of the Service are outside its terms of reference and that it could not take account of all the relevant factors. Nevertheless, I accept that there is always room for improvement, and I am considering the implications of the Board's report. If we are to implement its suggestions, a considerable expansion of work study staff will certainly be required.
    Mr. Pavitt: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it will be impossible to get efficiency while the pay of supervisory grades is so appallingly low? The basic rate of a person in charge of 74 porters is only £15 7s. a week. Is he also aware that contracting out work causes more expense than if we were to increase pay?
    Mr. Robinson: These matters of pay are for the appropriate Whitley Council, which will no doubt take full account of what my hon. Friend said.
    Mr. Braine: Do not those last two questions and answers reveal that there is a real need to investigate the use of manpower or womanpower in the National Health Service? Things are going hopelessly wrong, and is there not a case for an independent review of the Service?
    Mr. Robinson: No, Sir. Things are not going hopelessly wrong. The National Board for Prices and Incomes was concerned solely with ancillary staff in the National Health Service.
    Mr. Ogden: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this is one of the dangers of delegating authority to regional boards? Has he any power to intervene and tell such authorities how they are to conduct their affairs?
    Mr. Robinson: I have plenty of ways of making my wishes known to regional boards.

  MINISTRY OF LABOUR

    Disabled Persons, Cheltenham
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Minister of Labour what action he is taking to find employment for the number of disabled men out of work in Cheltenham.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Roy Hattersley): Through the special employment services, which are provided by my Department for the disabled, my officers in Cheltenham take every opportunity to submit those disabled people who are unemployed for suitable vacancies which are notified. They also make special approaches to employers for possible openings.
    Mr. Dodos-Parker: Do not these figures bear out the warnings so frequently given from this side of the House that there would be an increase of unemployment among the disabled because of the Selective Employment Tax? Will the hon. Gentleman approach the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do something to ameliorate the effect of this ridiculous tax on the disabled?
    Mr. Hattersley: All the inquiries by my Department suggest that the tax has led to no significant increase in the number of unemployed among the disabled.

    Pension and Superannuation Schemes
    Mr. Spriggsasked the Minister of Labour if he will give details of those pension and superannuation schemes which are now transferable with his approval and whether transfer is retrospective.
    Mr. Hattersley: A committee of the National Joint Advisory Council reported last year that the rules of pension schemes covering about three-quarters of existing members provided for some degree of preservation on withdrawal. Fuller details are given in the committee's published report. No approval from my right hon. Friend is required for transferability.
    Mr. Spriggs: How far back can a person transfer the funds from one superannuation scheme to another?
    Mr. Hattersley: I take it that my hon. Friend means what period should elapse between leaving one job and taking the next and then transferability being made possible. This subject is still under review but my right hon. Friend, of course, realises the importance of making that period as long as possible.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that many of the
    82
    nationalised industries are somewhat backward in allowing transferability of pension rights, particularly when the employee goes to the private sector? Will he look into the matter?
    Mr. Hattersley: I understand that difficulty, and the hon. and learned Gentleman has my assurance that all these matters are receiving attention.

    Asbestos Products
    47. Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce legislation to compel manufacturers of any boards or other materials containing asbestos to stamp clearly on each board the percentage of asbestos they contain.
    Mr. Hattersley: My right hon. Friend is considering whether, when the Factories Act is next amended, he should seek powers to require manufacturers to take precautions for the benefit of workers not employed by them, but whose work involves dealing with their products.
    Mr. Allaun: Will my hon. Friend implement these proposals fairly quickly? Does he accept the recent medical advice that asbestos can cause cancer? Will he also respect the strong feelings of the Wood Cutting Machinists Association that health should come before profits?
    Mr. Hattersley: While I agree with both my hon. Friend's contentions, I hope he will understand that to make provisions of the kind he suggests would require revision of the Factories Act and I cannot promise that in the immediate future.
    Mrs. Butler: As we are discovering fresh health hazards from asbestos every day, and since some workers adversely affected have been working only a short time with asbestos, will my hon. Friend ensure that this point is covered also?
    Mr. Hattersley: I am open to correction but I understand that these hazards come from working with asbestos directly and not with products, which are the subject of the Question on the Order Paper.

  ROLLS RAZOR LTD.
  Mr. Maddanasked the Attorney-General when he expects the Director of Public Prosecutions to complete his

  83
  inquiries into the affairs of Rolls Razor Limited.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Elwyn Jones): Police inquiries into this highly complex matter, involving several companies and individuals, are still in progress. It is hoped that they may be completed in a few months' time The Director of Public Prosecutions is unable to take any decision in the matter until the results of the police investigation are available.
  Mr. Maddan: Is the Attorney-General aware that the inquiries by the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police have been going on for 17 months and that they were preceded by a 17-months-long inquiry by the Board of Trade? Is it true that there are 14 tons of paper evidence and that only seven tons have so far been examined by the two officers concerned? Why does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman press the Government to strengthen the Fraud Squad and to drop the ridiculous restriction about a man having to be more than 5 feet 8 inches before being able to join the police?
  The Attorney-General: I cannot confirm the accuracy of the figures relating to the tonnage of paper quoted by the hon. Gentleman, but this is a highly complex matter involving investigation into the affairs of several companies over a term of several years. The delay is regrettable; but the problem is not so much one of manpower but of the complexity and wide range of the facts to be investigated.

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE
  Mr. Whitakerasked the Attorney-General whether he will take steps to provide that magistrates appointed prior to 1964 have some compulsory training.
  The Attorney-General: No, Sir. There are probably some 12,000 justices of the peace now sitting who were appointed before 1964, and it would be quite impracticable to require them now to undertake training and provide the necessary facilities. In any event, it would not be possible to impose now upon these magistrates an additional obligation which they were not asked to accept at the time when they were appointed.
  Mr. Whitaker: Is it not the fallacy of the present voluntary system that, whereas most progressive magistrates are anxious to undergo these courses, it is just those magistrates most in need of exposure to modern ideas who do not attend any training courses?
  The Attorney-General: It is, however, the case that the further training of all justices which has been recommended is being carried out satisfactorily and that part of the work is continuing.
  Mr. Carlisle: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that there is feeling among magistrates that the clerk of the court in which they sit is not the best person to give the preliminary training to new magistrates, as this tends to make them too dependent upon him later?
  The Attorney-General: I have no reason to believe that the compulsory training of justices, which has been in operation since 1st January, 1966, is not proceeding satisfactorily, but I will look into the point mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

  ILLEGAL RADIO STATION
  Mr. Fauldsasked the Attorney General whether he will instruct the Director of Public Prosecutions to make inquiries, with a view to prosecution for demanding with menaces, into the action of a director of an illegal radio station, whose name has been sent to him, in uttering threats against the hon. Member for Smethwick.
  The Attorney-General: I have asked the Director of Public Prosecutions to consider whether there is any evidence that a criminal offence has been committed in relation to this matter.
  Mr. Faulds: While I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he will confirm that such action will not prejudice any investigation that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade may wish to instigate?
  The Attorney-General: I do not know what action will yet be taken, if any, but certainly if such action were taken

  85
  it would not prejudice any action by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade in the wider field.

  LEGAL AID (MENTAL HEALTH REVIEW TRIBUNALS)
  Mr. Whitakerasked the Attorney General what would be the estimated cost of making legal aid available to applicants to mental health review tribunals.
  The Attorney-General: No estimate has been made. Economic circumstances do not permit extension of the Legal Aid Scheme at the present time and there is little call for it to be extended to these tribunals.
  Mr. Whitaker: Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is patients who have been immured in mental hospitals for a considerable time who could most benefit from professional advice? Would not the Tribunals themselves also appreciate the succinct presentation of the facts before them?
  The Attorney-General: I have had no representations that there is any sense of injustice arising from the present arrangements, but if my hon. Friend has any case in mind that he would care to refer to me I would be very willing to look into it.

  MAJOR CARR
  Mr. Websterasked the Attorney-General what papers have been referred in the case of Major Carr to the Director of Public Prosecutions; and what action has been taken.
  The Attorney-General: A number of circulars and letters relating to this matter have been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the police are now conducting a further investigation.
  Mr. Webster: In view of the wide publicity which has affected my constituent, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman either take action in the matter or have the matter closed in order that my constituent's name can be cleared?
  The Attorney-General: As I have said, police inquiries are continuing. Whether they will result ultimately in the happy
  86
  conclusion to which the hon. Gentleman has referred we shall have to wait and see.

  MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO

    Homeless Single Persons
    Mr. Parkasked the Minister without Portfolio what action he intends to take to deal with the report of the survey on homeless single persons carried out by the National Assistance Board in co-operation with Government Departments; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister Without Portfolio (Mr. Patrick Gordon Walker): I am considering the report in conjunction with the Ministers concerned.
    Mr. Park: Will my hon. Friend inform the House what authorities or individuals he is consulting about this matter?
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I have, of course, consulted with the various Ministers concerned and in particular with Mr. Richard Hayward, Chairman of the Supplementary Benefits Commission. This is the agency primarily concerned. I was particularly interested in his ideas of arranging for longer stays for these people in the various hostels and centres. An experiment is now going on in three such places where there can be prolonged stays. Of course, an experiment of this kind needs time before we can judge whether it will help in the situation.

  E.F.T.A. (MINISTERIAL MEETING)
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he will make a statement on the outcome of the European Free Trade Association Ministerial meeting in London on 28th April.
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Frederick Mulley): The meeting was designed to fulfil the undertaking that we made at Stockholm to consult further with our European Free Trade Association partners after we had had an opportunity of reviewing my right hon. Friends' the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary's discussions in the capitals of

  87
  the Community, but before any conclusions had been drawn from them as regards Her Majesty's Government's future policy.
  With permission, I will circulate a copy of the communiquée in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the communiqué's reference to transitional periods to enable existing members of E.F.T.A. to complete negotiations? Was there or was there not any undertaking given regarding the imposition of tariffs between existing members of E.F.T.A.?
  Mr. Mulley: No undertakings were given beyond those set out in the communiquée itself, of which, I am sure, the hon. Gentleman has seen a copy. The point with which E.F.T.A. members were concerned was that we should endeavour—the phrase is clearly in that sense—to see that all E.F.T.A. members seeking membership of or association with the Community should contrive to do so in a way which would prevent for a transitional time the erection of tariff barriers only for them to be removed when they were all, as one hoped, members of the Community.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the terms of the 1961 London Agreement will be fully adhered to?
  Mr. Mulley: I can give no such assurance, because no such assurance was asked for. There is a general view in E.F.T.A. that those terms no longer apply and my hon. Friend will see from paragraph 5 of the communiquée what is the wish of E.F.T.A. Governments in present circumstances, if—and I must stress "if"—Her Majesty's Government decide to make such an application.
  E.F.T.A. PRESS COMMUNIQUé
  The E.F.T.A. Council met at Ministerial level in London on 28th April, 1967, under the chairmanship of Mr. Gunnar Lange, Minister of Commerce of Sweden. Finland was also represented by Mr. Ahti Karjalainen, Foreign Minister, who was present in a personal capacity. The only item on their agenda was European integration.
  2. The meeting, held in accordance with an agreement reached at the E.F.T.A. Ministerial conference in Stockholm in March of this year, gave the opportunity for a general
  88
  discussion among Ministers of the prospects of European integration as they appear now that the United Kingdom Government have been able to review their own recent discussions in the six capitals of the European Economic Community, and before any final conclusions have been drawn from them.
  3. The E.F.T.A. Governments, desirous of bringing about a single European market in accordance with the purpose of the Stockholm Convention, recognised that, if the British Government were to decide to seek a closer relationship with the E.E.C., that decision would open up new prospects for a solution of the question of European economic integration, in which they all intended to participate.
  4. In affirming their intention to work towards the goal of European economic integration, all the E.F.T.A. Governments reiterated their strong interest in safe-guarding, as an important part of an enlarged European community, the free market already established in E.F.T.A. by the successful dismantling of trade barriers within the Association.
  5. The change from the present division of Europe to a single market should be as smooth as possible. Were the United Kingdom or any other member of E.F.T.A. to apply for participation in the E.E.C., the process of negotiation and of ratifying any ensuing agreement could hardly be short. In addition, it would be the purpose of E.F.T.A. Governments that, should it be necessary in order to give a reasonable opportunity to their partners in the Free Trade Area to conclude negotiations, sufficient transitional periods should be provided for, with a view to avoiding disruption in European trade patterns.
  6. Ministers agreed that their Governments should maintain close and continuous consultation on all the aspects of the future of European structure.

  PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS

    St. James's Palace (Clock)
    Sir W. Teelingasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many times the main clock at St. James's Palace has broken down in the last 12 months; what has been the cost of repairing it; and what estimate he has made of the cost of replacing it, compared with the cost of future repairs.
    The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. Reg Prentice): The clock has stopped three times. Repairs and a recent major overhaul cost £557. Complete replacement of the clock is not considered necessary but the installation of a modern mechanism would cost about £2,500. In comparison, the cost of any future repairs should be negligible.
    Sir W. Teeling: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about a week after

    89
    it had been repaired, it stopped again? Is he aware that it is in a beautiful position, with sentries underneath, and is probably one of the most photographed clocks in London, especially by foreigners, and that these faults cannot give foreigners a very good impression of our clock makers?
    Mr. Prentice: I realise that, and it was because the clock had been repaired three times in 12 months that there was a major overhaul between February and April, this year. The overhaul was the first for 20 years and in the circumstances I think that the cost was reasonable. I hope that, as a result, there will be no further trouble.

  TRANSPORT

    Motor Vehicles (Exhaust Fumes)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Transport what action the Government are now taking to prevent the discharge of excessive exhaust fumes from motor vehicles, especially those with diesel engines.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler): I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to him and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd) on 8th March and also that given to the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) on 11th November.—[Vol. 742, c. 282.] [Vol. 735, c. 384.]
    Mr. Longden: How has the research into this matter conducted by the Economic Council for Europe been getting on? Although there is some dispute about the effects of these fumes on cancer, our air would obviously be better without them. Cannot the hon. Gentleman do something to get rid of them?
    Mr. Swingler: A considerable amount of research is being done here under national and under private auspices, and also in other countries. We are taking account of all this. As my right hon. Friend has said, if the result of this research shows a need for new regulations, she will not hesitate to make them.
    Mr. Webster: Is the hon. Gentleman content that the weight-power ratio as now laid down in the regulations is satisfactory?
    Mr. Swingler: As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are discussing this matter with the manufacturers and we aim to get a satisfactory ratio.

  ROADS

    South Orbital Road Link (B2032)
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Transport if she will reconsider the recent decision not to accept as a principal road B2032, the Pebble Hill link between the A25 and the South Orbital road.
    Mr. Swingler: No, Sir, not so far as the existing B2032 is concerned. But the status of a possible Pebble Coombe Hill diversion will be considered in the light of the scheme to be made for the South Orbital Road between Godstone and Leatherhead.
    Sir G. Sinclair: Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that if there is to be no Government help for a classified road between Pebble Hill and the A.25, there may be a burden of £1·2 million expenditure on Surrey County Council?
    Mr. Swingler: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the draft scheme for this part of the South Orbital is about to be published, and, in the light of that, we shall have to consider the connecting roads very seriously. It is most likely that that will alter the situation and I think that the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied with the result.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Far East
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about his recent visit to the Far East regarding British commitments and forces there.
    The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): I visited Singapore and Malaysia for the primary purpose of discussing with the Commander-in-Chief and with the two Governments concerned how best we might achieve further reductions in the theatre as a whole by April, 1968, on the lines I had indicated in the defence debate. I also met the trade union leaders in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur.

    91
    As a result of the visit, and subject to discussion of the details in London, I believe that it will be possible to reduce by April next year the total number of men and women working in or for the Services by about 20,000 compared with the total at the end of "confrontation". In addition, I had some preliminary discussions about the scope for further reductions during the next two or three years; and I obtained a great deal of information which will form a basis for further examination and discussion both at home and abroad during the next few weeks and months.
    The Governments of Singapore and Malaysia both understand our position and I believe that the possibilities we have under consideration for the next few years will enable changes to be made in an orderly way without unacceptable consequences, provided that we keep in close contact with one another.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the men be brought home, or are they to be sent to other bases abroad? Secondly, will my right hon. Friend resist American pressure to maintain our other very large forces which would still remain in the Far East?
    Mr. Healey: I cannot guarantee that every British soldier, sailor or airman will come home, but there will be a net reduction in our forces serving overseas by the number withdrawn from Singapore and Malaysia.
    In all these matters we shall, of course, take account of the views of our allies, but the reduction by 20,000 is a firm decision, subject, of course, to clearing the details in discussion with my colleagues and military advisers in London.
    Mr. Powell: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the specific reductions which he was discussing were those envisaged and forecast in the defence debates earlier this year? Will he agree that when any further reductions are envisaged, it would be right for a statement to be made to the House at an early stage and that the change in policy which is involved should be properly debated? Finally, will he bear in mind, in the light of the lessons of Aden, the inadvisability of making long-range dated forecasts of withdrawals without knowledge of the circumstances?
    Mr. Healey: I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman is retreating from the position which he took up at his party's Brighton Conference not so long ago. On the serious part of his question, the reduction by a total of 20,000 is, of course, as I forecast in my speech to the House in the defence debate. Any further reductions on which we may decide in the following few years will, of course, be indicated and explained to the House at the proper time.
    Mr. Mayhew: What relation does this bear to our continuing defence commitments in Asia? Does the Prime Minister's statement of last June on continuing defence commitments in Asia throughout the 1970s still represent Government policy?
    Mr. Healey: My hon. Friend may be aware that, contrary to his expectations a year ago, confrontation came to an end in August, last year, and that has greatly reduced the military task of our forces.
    Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman's answer to his hon. Friend is hardly complete. Under the S.E.A.T.O. Treaty we have an obligation. It is for us to decide what help we give our allies, but the obligation is there in respect of Thailand.
    Mr. Healey: As so often, the right hon. Gentleman has put the matter precisely right. We have an obligation under the S.E.A.T.O. Treaty, but it is for us, in consultation with our allies, to decide precisely how we meet that obligation in terms of military forces.
    Mr. Maxwell: In his discussion with the Prime Minister of Singapore, what commitment did my right hon. Friend make in respect of maintaining employment in Singapore, having regard to the planned withdrawal? What does he propose to do to assure Australia that we do not intend to leave them in the hands of the United States alone in connection with their defence requirements?
    Mr. Healey: Of course, we are in consultation with the Australian Government the whole time. On the first part of the question, I made it clear to the House in the defence debate that reduction in base facilities will mean redundancy in locally employed or enlisted personnel. I discussed this aspect of the

    93
    problem with the Prime Minister of Singapore and other Singapore Ministers, and also, as it affects Malaysia, with the Malaysian Government. I am glad to be able to tell the House that we are all confident that we could meet this side of the problem providing that we keep in close contact on the phasing of such a programme. I was in a position to tell the two Governments that Her Majesty's Government are prepared to provide significant aid, if required, to meet the consequences of the run-down.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: Would the right hon. Gentleman go a little further about the assurances to our S.E.A.T.O. allies? I think that his statement could be misinterpreted, especially in respect of the New Zealanders and Australians who have troops fighting on the mainland of Asia. Would he go a little further?
    Mr. Healey: We have always made it clear that although it is, of course, for the Australian and New Zealand Governments to decide whether it is right for them to fight in Vietnam, this is not a decision that we would wish to take as far as the British Government are concerned.
    Mr. Bellenger: What will happen to the military personnel who are being brought home from the Far East and, as I also understand, from B.A.O.R.? Will they have any effect on our recruiting targets for the Regular Forces?
    Mr. Healey: I made it clear a year ago in the debate on the Defence White Paper that the final achievement of the Defence Review targets will require some reduction in the ceilings of recruitment in all three Services.
    Mr. Sandys: Am I right in assuming from the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that the Government are not, at present at any rate, contemplating any further reductions beyond those which he has announced?
    Mr. Healey: No, Sir. Exactly the contrary. I thought that I had made it clear that we were contemplating further reductions beyond those which I have announced over the next 12 months.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Did the trade unionists whom my right hon. Friend
    94
    consulted express any opposition to the base being used in a war against China?
    Mr. Healey: No, Sir. The trade unionists to whom I spoke were concerned exclusively, and I think very naturally, with the employment and conditions of their members.

BRITISH FORCES (CONTINENT)
Mr. Powell Mr. Powell (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has any statement to make on an agreement reached regarding British forces on the Continent.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): No, Sir. The final round of tripartite talks was held in London on Thursday and Friday of last week and the principals have transmitted their proposals to their Governments.
A statement will be made to the House at the earliest opportunity and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to await it.
Mr. Powell: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that any reduction of forces on the Continent will be decided upon, if at all, only in agreement with the whole of our allies in N.A.T.O. and not merely in the framework of the tripartite discussions?
Mr. Healey: Yes, Sir. We have repeatedly made it clear that any reduction on which we decide will be carried out after going through the same procedures as those which the Conservative Party went through when it reduced its commitments on the Continent by 25,000.
Mr. Michael Foot: Is it not the case that Her Majesty's Government have already made it clear in statements made to the House, for example, on 20th July last year, that there were certain financial consequences of these discussions on which Her Majesty's Government must insist? Will he confirm that Her Majesty's Government are still insisting precisely upon those consequences?
Mr. Healey: I must ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which will be made later in the week.
Mr. Sandys: Following on what he said, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that as part of the procedure which he will go through he will ensure that

95
the views of the Supreme Allied Commander will be presented to the Committee of Ministers of W.E.U. in accordance with the Treaty?
Mr. Healey: Yes, Sir, of course. Perhaps as a titbit to the right hon. Gentleman, which I am sure he will be delighted to hear, may I say that there is a general movement of opinion inside the alliance towards the views which I have expressed in the House on a number of occasions regarding the conditions which should govern N.A.T.O. strategy.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Does my right hon. Friend remember that the Government said that they would require the covering of these costs in full? Secondly, if the figure of 6,000, or 11 per cent. of our troops there, is the figure in mind, is he aware that many of us feel that it is not good enough?
Mr. Healey: I think that my memory is good as that of my hon. Friend. On the second part of his question, I have no doubt about the feelings of many of my hon. colleagues.

OFFICIAL REPORT (CORRECTION)
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On a point of order. In c. 1927 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for last Thursday there appears a point of order, if I may say so singularly well reasoned and garnished with a scholarly reference to Petronius, which is attributed to me. That attribution was fortified by a similar attribution of it to me by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson).
As I was not in the Chamber at the time, may I ask that a correction be made? By reason of my absence, I do not know to whom it should be attributed, but, from internal evidence, I suggest a search in the neighbourhood of St. Marylebone.
Mr. Speaker: I will see that the correction is made. I can assure the hon. Member that the Official Reporters are capable of doing the necessary political and physical research into finding out which right hon. Gentleman made the intervention.
I am sure that the House wishes me to comment on the fact that it is
96
exceedingly rarely that the reporters make any mistakes. A correction will be made.

BRITISH TRAWLER (ARREST)
Mr. Paget: On a point of order. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the seizure on the high seas of a British trawler by an Icelandic ship of war".
The facts as reported by the B.B.C. are as follows: the British trawler was arrested in Icelandic coastal waters. She said that she had drifted there while trying to extract what she believed to be a mine from her nets. That is as it may be. But she was brought into harbour and from there she later at night made her escape. She escaped successfully outside the territorial limits before her absence was discovered and a pursuit was commenced. She was not reached until she had travelled 80 miles upon the high seas.
At that point, in my submission, any arrest became quite illegal and an infringement——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. and learned Member is arguing the merits of the issue which he is raising.
Mr. Paget: With respect, Mr. Speaker, to found my application I have to establish the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government. To do that I seek to show that this was a British ship, under the British flag, on the high seas, and entitled to the protection of the British Fleet.
If I may quote some words from Lauterpacht on this subject, they are:
"Further than this, ships whilst flying the British flag are considered as though they were floating portions of the flag State"—
that is, Britain.
So this action is, in fact, an invasion of British territory for which Her Majesty's Government are responsible.
So far as the possible raising of the doctrine of hot pursuit is concerned, that applies only where the pursued——
Mr. Speaker: Order. With respect, the hon. and learned Gentleman is arguing the merits of the issue that he will

97
raise if he is fortunate enough to have his application granted under Standing Order No. 9. He must address himself to the particular issues always raised when an hon. Gentleman seeks to mov' a Motion under Standing Order No. 9.
Mr. Paget: In that case Mr. Speaker, I will not take it further than to say that in this case, on international law, this was a British ship upon the high seas, clear of national waters, and not subject to hot pursuit since the pursuit did not start until it was clear of national waters.
There can be no question that this is definite, there can be no question that it is urgent and there can be no question that it is of public importance and that it is a matter for which Her Majesty's Government are responsible. Indeed, when we provide Her Majesty with funds for the Navy we do so expressly for the better preservation of our trade and protection of our vessels upon the high seas.
I urgently say that if Standing Order No. 9 has any meaning at all, both upon the precedents and upon its own words, it must cover this case. This is a case of a private right subject to a public infringement in a matter in which the individual is entitled to public protection. I submit that it is exactly the kind of case for which Standing Order No. 9 is devised. If the Standing Order has any meaning at all it must cover this case.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the seizure on the high seas of a British trawler by an Icelandic ship of war."
I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving me some measure of prior notice of his intention, as this has enabled me to refresh my memory on the precedents.
I find that this is not the first occasion on which the arrest of a trawler by a foreign Government has been raised in the House. I find that on 9th April, 1923, the Speaker of the day declined to accept such a Motion on the ground that
"some new action on the part of a foreign Government."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1923; Vol. 163, c. 877.]
98
which involved matters of territorial waters and fishing rights was a continuing matter and that the arrest of the fishing trawler did not justify the application under Standing Order No. 9.
I do not think, therefore, that I can today hold this incident to fall within the category of what my distinguished predecessor, Mr. Speaker Peel, called, in words which have often been quoted, "an occurrence of some sudden emergency either in home or foreign affairs."
In consequence, I do not consider that the House ought to allow the Motion.
Mr. Paget: Further to the point of order——
Mr. Speaker: I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will accept the fact that the Speaker has given consideration to this matter.
Mr. Paget: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the 1923 case, the issue then was whether the territorial waters claimed extended for three or six miles, which was a continuing dispute. This is an entirely different case, because the incident was outside territorial waters, and there is no dispute——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman is doing what I hope the House would deprecate. This is a difficult decision that the Chair has to make from time to time. I hope that the House will accept it.

BILL PRESENTED
  EROSION PREVENTION
  Bill to enable river and other authorities to build erosion prevention works on river banks, presented by Mr. Anthony Kershaw; supported by Mr. David Webster, Mr. Corfield and Sir Gerald Nabarro: read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed.[Bill 248.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Ordered,
  That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before half-past Nine o'clock.—[Mr. Crossman.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [18TH ALLOTTED DAY] [2nd Series]
  SUPPLY

    F111K AIRCRAFT CONTRACT
    Mr. Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest (Mr. Powell) to move the Motion, perhaps I might say that I have not selected the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) and his colleagues.
    3.46 p.m.
    Mr. Enoch Powell:I beg to move,
    That this House deplores the contradictory statements made by Her Majesty's Government about the purchase of the United States F111K aircraft, and calls for a realistic statement of its prospective cost and potentialities.
    The story of the F111K purchase already goes back a considerable period of time, almost to the beginning of the period of office of the Labour Party, for it was within six months of taking office that it announced to Parliament its decision to cancel the TSR2 aircraft.
    That decision immediately opened two major questions to which the Government purported, at any rate, to address themselves in the following months. The first of those questions was whether the capability of the cancelled TSR2 aircraft was needed at all. The second was: supposing that the capabilty was needed, by what aircraft, or combination of aircraft, should it be provided?
    It was almost a year later, in the framework of the Defence White Paper of 1966, that the Government came forward with their answers to those two questions. Their answer to the first question was in the affirmative; they believed that there was, and for many years to come would be, a requirement for the capability which the TSR2 aircraft would have fulfilled. Their answer to the second and consequential question was, however, a much more complicated one. It was that the upper end, so to speak, of that capability would be met by the purchase of the American F111 aircraft modified in certain respects to meet special British requirements.
    However, they intended to purchase only 50 of these aircraft, and in order to
    100
    explain and justify that decision they introduced, like a deus ex machina, the assumption of an Anglo-French aircraft which has since become known normally by its initials—the AFVG. This aircraft, should it come into production as intended, would after the mid-'seventies take over some, but apparently not all, of the functions thitherto discharged by the 50111 aircraft. Such was the second and substantive answer which the Government gave the House and the country to the question which they had posed in the first place by their decision to cancel the TSR2 aircraft.
    On the A.F.V.G., which we are not debating this afternoon, but on which much of the future prospects of the F111 purchase must turn, I would say only this: all the key decisions are evidently yet to be taken; the aircraft—its character, its practicability, its cost, and everything else about it—remains, I can hardly say in the air, but at any rate, in the realms of assumption. Meanwhile, the story of the F111 has taken some strange turnings.
    The picture originally presented to the House when the decision to purchase these 50 aircraft was announced was that Britain was getting, by this decision, all the advantages of buying an aircraft off the peg; that within a massive American production for American purposes, a relatively small number of aircraft, under specially favourable and definite conditions, were to be obtained for the purposes of the United Kingdom.
    Since then, almost every statement about the F111K originally made, almost every one of the advantages claimed for it, has become to a greater or lesser degree, doubtful. Right at the outset there was the strange episode, with which I do not propose to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman further by reminding him in detail, of the suppression, in connection with the American off-set of the dollar costs of the F111, of the fact which presently transpired, that most of that offset related not to direct United States purchases, but to purchases of British defence equipment by third parties.
    All the salient characteristics of this aircraft, cost, performance and delivery, are now in a state of such doubt and obscurity that it has become urgently necessary that they should be cleared up

    101
    for the House and the country, by the Government.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: If the right hon. Gentleman is so critical of the F111, will he tell the House and the country whether his party is for or against this purchase? Why is he not honest, like the Liberals? Many of us were against it, and said so. Will the right hon. Gentleman say, "Yes" or "No", whether he is in favour of this purchase?
    Mr. Powell: Until some of the questions which I am to ask in the course of this debate have been ventilated and answered, no one can form a reasonable view about what is implicit in the purchase of these aircraft.
    I come initially to the cost of the aircraft and, first, to the basic cost, without the additions or the modifications being made for British purposes. Two years ago, when the option was first entered into with the United States, the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Home Secretary describing the option arrangements, said:
    "We have a fixed maximum. We might pay less, but we could not pay more."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April 1965; Vol. 693, c. 1287.]
    That statement, that this ceiling price for the basic aircraft represents an absolute maximum, the outer limit of what we might at any time be required to pay, has been repeated consistently ever since then, until the very recent past.
    For example, in the 196c Defence White Paper we were told:
    "The ceiling price for the basic aircraft—5·95 million United States dollars or about £2·1 million—covering production costs and a contribution to the United States research and development costs, will apply to the total purchase.…"
    So these expressions, these asseverations, were used repeatedly, month in and month out. Whatever doubt might attach to other elements of this purchase, one thing was certain: we had a fixed ceiling price for the basic aircraft.
    Then, on 11th April, in answer to a Written Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing), the right hon. Gentleman introduced a new phrase into the hitherto stereotyped description. He said:
    "The unit cost of the 50 F111 Ks we have ordered remains, as hitherto, about £2½ million. This figure"—
    102
    and here come the novel words—
    "which excludes U.S. money inflation …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April 1967; Vol. 744, c. 165.]
    and then he continued with his description of it. Nothing else was changed, but the insertion of those words. The following day he used the same expression, "excluding United States money inflation", in an Oral Answer to a Question put to him by myself and other hon. Members.
    What was the reason for this sudden paroxysm of precision by the right hon. Gentleman? Why were the time-honoured formulae which had done duty for so many months suddenly altered by the insertion of an expression, which, naturally, caught attention and led to questions? I can satisfy the curiosity of the House on that score. In the preceding week, on 6th April, the noble Lord the Minister without Portfolio, answering a Question in another place, had for the first time used that phrase. He was referring in that context to the matter of the supplementary ceiling for the modifications to which I shall come presently. Once the fatal words were said, they had to be used in this House, too. I think that we may be grateful to another place for having introduced an increased degree of candour into the description of the terms of the purchase of the basic aircraft.
    The question now arises: what is involved in this qualification to the ceiling price, the maximum price that we have been hearing about for two years? The right hon. Gentleman tried to laugh it off in his usual fashion. He said "Why,every-one knows that; everyone knows that all these contracts are subject to escalation for United States inflation." He had not happened to mention it, nor had any of his colleagues happened to mention it until a week or two ago, when it happened to be mentioned, by chance, in another place.
    But, said the Minister, the costs of the Polaris submarine were similarly subject to escalation of the American dollar costs. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell the House, later on, what has been the degree of escalation in the dollar costs of the Polaris submarine? He referred to the Phantom purchase. I shall come in a moment to a statement which

    103
    the Minister of State, Ministry of Technology, made on that subject, but the price of the Phantom aircraft was not declared by the then Government to the public or to the House. Still less was it, or the price of the Polaris submarine, made, as the fixed ceiling price of the basic F111 aircraft has been made, part of the Government's own case for purchasing that aircraft, and constantly urged in debate after debate upon those who had argued against the decision to cancel the TSR2 aircraft. It is, therefore, no use the right hon. Gentleman pretending that in this case the small print did not even need to be printed.
    The right hon. Gentleman said that to date he had added "something over £100,000 per aircraft" to cover this little item. He said:
    "The ceiling price of £2·1 million for the basic aircraft is, however, subject to adjustment in the light of increases in the cost of labour and materials since April 1965 and to allow for this to date I am adding something over £100,000 per aircraft for purposes of costing forward defence plans at current price levels."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1967; Vol. 744, c. 188.]
    We have had some information from the Ministry of Technology on the escalation of the cost of the Phantom aircraft. We have been told that the agreements for the purchase of Spey Phantom aircraft for the Royal Navy
    "are based on cost estimates provided by the United States Government. These include a factor of 3 per cent. per annum for inflation in the United States of America"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th April, 1967; Vol. 744, c. 338.]
    If that is the figure which is to apply to the F111K, then by the time 1970 is reached there will have been an addition of between £250,000 and £300,000 to the cost of each aircraft. But perhaps this is not the basis in the case of the F111K. If so, may we be told by the Government on what basis the addition for the escalation of United States costs is to be made?
    The Secretary of State has referred to increases in the costs of labour and materials. Is the value of those increases to be judged by some general index of United States inflation, as it is called; or is it to be related to some specific index of the materials and labour which enter into this aircraft; or is it to be related to the actual experience of the application of labour and materials to the manufac-
    104
    ture of this aircraft? Obviously, we must know which, and we must be told realistically and candidly what this will add to the cost of the basic aircraft. Incidentally, we shall want to know over how many years it is calculated. We know that it runs from the date of the first option, April, 1965. Will it run in the case of each aircraft to the date of the delivery of that aircraft?
    Before I leave that point, I would draw the Secretary of State's attention to one fallacy—and it is a rather dangerous fallacy—into which he seems to be falling. In the reply of 12th April which I have quoted, he said:
    "… the unit cost of the F111K, in real terms, continues to be about £2½ million, as we have hitherto assumed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1967; Vol. 744, c. 187–8.]
    The right hon. Gentleman is falling into a fallacy. Of course, when there is internal inflation, provided that that inflation proceeds uniformly and the money value of everything is lifted, the cost of any article in real terms remains constant.
    But that does not apply when we are subject to the escalation in costs of an article which we are purchasing from abroad. Unless the international rate of exchange is altered, the consequence of any increase in the price of what we buy in dollars from the United States, whatever be the reason for that increase—whether it be United States inflation or any other cause—is to increase the real cost to this country and the amount of work which will have to be done by citizens of this country, which they might be applying to other purposes, in order to purchase these aircraft. Let us hear no more of the escalation of United States prices making no difference to the real costs in this country.
    The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): Surely the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the extent to which there is any difference between the cost inflationary effects of American rises and the effects over here depends entirely on the extent to which inflation in the two countries is parallel. If we have to pay more in Britain and the British £ is worth less in real terms, there is no difference at all.
    Mr. Powell: The right hon. Gentleman has half seen the point. If the international rate of exchange is adjusted

    105
    to allow for the relative progress of inflation in the two countries, then the real cost will be the same. But as long as 2·80 dollars is the exchange rate of the American dollar, the more dollars we have to pay, the more we shall have to export in order to pay for those articles.
    Mr. Stanley Orme:Nonsense.
    Mr. Eric Lubbock: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene? [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Too much mathematical conversation is being conducted.
    Mr. Powell: Perhaps right hon. and hon. Members opposite will give themselves the time and opportunity to reflect quietly on the point.
    I come to the modifications of the basic F111 aircraft which convert it into the F111K, as we know it—the aircraft required for the purposes of this country. Originally, the idea was that modification would consist only in a difference of avionics. That was what the then Minister of Aviation said two years ago, when the option was entered into.
    In July, 1966, however, it became known that the modifications went considerably beyond that and included a strengthened undercarriage. Certain information on that subject was disclosed in July last year. This, in turn, meant that the modifications to the basic aircraft for the F111K might be quite substantial. The right hon. Gentleman described them in November last as changes in configuration. The pressing reasons for these changes—I am talking, not about the avionics, but about the other modifications—have never satisfactorily been explained to the House. But from an early stage we were told—for example, in the Defence White Paper of 1966—that a ceiling price for these modifications was to be agreed with the United States Government. For example, the White Paper stated:
    "A ceiling price for the changes in the basic aircraft required by the Royal Air Force is to be agreed as soon as practicable."
    That was February, 1966.
    In March this year, I asked the right hon. Gentleman, who was then within a month of the final date for taking up the option to purchase the remaining 40 aircraft, whether he would obtain that
    106
    agreement before he closed with the option. He gave me a firm undertaking on 1st March, when he said:
    "… we shall not place a contract until we have the ceiling price agreed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1967; Vol. 742, c. 476–7.]
    By the end of March we had placed the contract and a ceiling price had not been agreed.
    Mr. Healey indicated dissent.
    Mr. Powell: There must be some marked reason why the right hon. Gentleman gave so firm, clear and explicit an understanding with a few weeks of the termination of the option and then found that he was unable to fulfil it. If it was so easy a matter to negotiate a fixed ceiling price for the modifications with the United States Government, it is difficult to account for the fact that, I am certain in good faith, the right hon. Gentleman gave me that reply on 1st March but failed to get the agreement before he closed with the option.
    It is true that the right hon. Gentleman told us on 12th April that there had been "cost information from the United States Government which have a satisfactory assurance" that the total unit cost would be as assumed. That, however, is a very different matter. The right hon. Gentleman is no longer saying that he has any assurance from the United States Government, or that he has any agreement with them. All he is saying is that they have given him information on which he feels assured. The Government have felt assurance on many subjects on which subsequently that assurance has proved to be less than well founded.
    There are good reasons for our anxieties in the way in which these modifications and their cost are regarded on the other side of the Atlantic. The right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, have seen what was said by Mr. Henry Kuss and was reported in Aviation Week and Space Technology last month.
    "Some of the modifications required"
    said Mr. Kuss—
    "are very developmental. Calculation of the British share will be made after total developmental costs have been determined, a process which will take several years. The British will also pay full developmental costs of any non-common components"—
    that is, not common to the United States and ourselves—
    "which they want incorporated".

    107
    If that is how it looks on the other side of the Atlantic, it is no wonder that the right hon. Gentleman was unable to agree a ceiling price for the modifications by 1st April this year.
    I have touched on the price of basic aircraft, which, we now know, is subject to a major escalation, and on the price of the modifications, which has not yet been quantified except by the assumptions of the Government themselves. We have learned of other items. There was, for example, the discovery that £600 per bomb would have to be spent on the modification of our existing stock of bombs for use in the F111. It would be wise, therefore, that the Government should now state categorically whether there are any other still undisclosed consequential costs, loopholes, or escalations which have to be taken into account in measuring the cost to this country of the F111A aircraft.
    So far, of course, one has been talking only about the original aircraft by themselves. We are not even talking about the initial spares, because the initial spares and much that is necessary for this aircraft to fly at all when it arrives is not included in the figures or in the agreements and understandings, such as they are, about which I have been speaking.
    There is a rough, normal, general sort of ratio of something like one to one between the basic cost of an aircraft and the spares, initially and over a period of operation. Here, however, we have no guarantee whatever of what the cost of being able to operate these aircraft initially and in subsequent years will be. We are told that we shall obtain spares on the same terms as those on which they will be available to the United States forces; but on what terms and at what cost they are likely to be available, if at all, to the United States forces we have no knowledge whatever.
    So much for cost. I come now to performance. Here there has been the opposite of an escalation. There has here been a progressive diminuendo in confidence about the performance of this aircraft.
    Mr. John Rankin: After that dissertation on probably costs, would the right hon. Gentleman help us by giving the House an estimated figure of what the cost of the aircraft will be?
    Mr. Powell: I will not say that that is a function which can be safely left to the Government, but it is a function which is the duty of the Government. I hope that in response to the invitation of the Opposition, they will at last perform that function in the course of this debate.
    Mr. Rankin: Surely——
    Mr. Powell: I hope that the hon. Member will not take up the time of the House by suggesting that any useful purpose could be served, against the background of the uncertainties which I have displayed, by a necessarily uninformed guess being made as to the total cost of this aircraft. The purpose of this debate is to obtain that information from the Government.
    Now, performance. Way back in December, 1965, the right hon. Gentleman said that
    "in many respects the F111A is superior to the TSR2".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1965; Vol. 722, c. 915.]
    Then he modified it a little and in November, 1966, he said:
    "In all respects the performance of the F111K is superior to the requirement for the TSR2".
    Finally, however, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the happy existence of
    "a substantial buffer in case of any drop in the performance of the American aircraft".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1966; Vol. 736, c. 423.]
    A still more ominous note has been sounded, and, once again, in another place, for it has not escaped attention that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, on 6th April, said simply this:
    "we have had definite assurances that the aircraft will meet the R.A.F.'s minimum requirements".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 6th April, 1967; Vol. 281, c. 1072.]
    I wonder how much further it will come down the scale before, if at all, we actually get this aircraft.
    At least on delivery, what is sometimes rather unpleasingly described as 'slippage' is already a fact. The White Paper of 1966 said that full delivery of the 50 aircraft was guaranteed not later than January, 1970. In reply to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) on 16th November last year, we were told that the first aircraft was scheduled for delivery at the end of 1968 and the rest

    109
    of the first 10 in the immediately following months.
    When, however, the Ministry of Defence announced at the end of March that it had finally closed with the option and ordered the remaining 40 aircraft, we were told only that deliveries were planned to begin "in 1969". That is a rather ominous alteration of the tone when we were previously told six months earlier that deliveries would begin in 1968. How much further, then, will the delivery and the programme of these aircraft slip?
    There is a growing sense of mystery and doubt surrounding the provision of these aircraft for other purchasers. I asked the Secretary of State a few days ago whether he expected that the F111K aircraft ordered for Great Britain would be the first production F111 aircraft to be manufactured. "No" was his answer. Evidently, therefore, he is aware that there are other production aircraft in the pipeline ahead of ours.
    It would, I am sure, be reassuring if we could be told how many and for whom are those production aircraft in the pipeline ahead of ours so that, presumably, some of the earlier faults and weaknesses may be modified or ironed out before our own production run obtains. It would certainly go far towards reassuring those who still expect to see this aircraft performing what has been held out for it if we were told what is our place in the production line now that we have put in the order.
    There is more than a little ground already for the fear that the Fill purchase could prove a fiasco which was costly not only in money. The point has surely been reached when the House and the country are entitled to have an unsparing and realistic appraisal of the facts and the prospects in full, leaving out nothing and extenuating nothing. That will certainly be a novel experience in the story of this purchase.
    I have no doubt that, if he decides to face it out and bluff his way through, the right hon. Gentleman will be able to get round a few more corners yet, but the time will come when the facts about the wisdom or unwisdom of the Government's decision will out. He will serve the House and the nation much better by being absolutely frank and candid now, and that is what we ask of him.
    4.21 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) makes two types of contribution to our discussions on defence. On the big issues, he confines himself to an oracular ambiguity which enables him to pose as a profound thinker without ever saying what precisely his policy is. On the small issues, all we get from him is a pedantic nitpicking. He builds up elaborate structures of argument to a dizzy height—but always on false or inadequate foundations and always of staggering irrelevance to the issues which the House should be discussing.
    What we had this afternoon was an example of his second style. I shall deal with the points that he made as I go along, but my main purpose—and I am grateful to him for giving me the opportunity to do it—is to explain yet again, and as fully as I can within the limits of national security, what we want this aircraft for, the sort of specification required to meet its rôle, how the F111K measures up to the operational requirement, what it costs, how the dollar cost is being covered, and, finally, though my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Technology will speak at greater length on this, the part played by the F111K in an overall programme of aircraft procurement which is calculated to preserve the British aircraft industry as a technological leader in Europe and the world—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite obviously think that that is a matter at which to snigger, but we on this side of the House believe that the aircraft industry has a future in this country, though only on the basis of the sort of programme which we have given to it. In the course of my speech, I will deal with the points which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen may want to make later.
    First, I want to explain what the aircraft is for, its rôle in the Royal Air Force, and indeed in the Government's defence policy as a whole. I want to make it clear to hon. Members on the Liberal benches and others who are under a misapprehension here that the F111K is not being bought to replace the V-bombers as a strategic nuclear delivery system. Britain's contribution to the strategic deterrent will pass from the V-bombers in a few years' time

    111
    to the Polaris submarines. The F111K, like the TSR2 which it replaces in our programme, is planned as a tactical strike and reconnaissance aircraft delivering conventional weapons in the strike rôle. Of course, it has the capability for carrying nuclear weapons: so has a balloon; but that is not why we are buying it. If we wanted it for dropping nuclear bombs, we would not buy the highly sophisticated electronic equipment which it will carry to permit accurate delivery of conventional weapons on point targets. One does not need that sort of thing with a nuclear bomber. The V-bombers themselves, when they hand over their nuclear rôle to the Polaris submarine force, will supplement the F111K for tactical strike with conventional weapons against targets whose defences can be penetrated by aircraft less sophisticated than the F111K.
    The Liberal Party seems to believe that the R.A.F. will not need an aircraft for reconnaissance and tactical strike at all in the 1970s, or at least not one so sophisticated as the F111K. Do let us remember—and I wish that newspapers in the country would remember it—that this is an aircraft which comes into squadron service in two years' time, in 1969; and I will deal with the delivery points which the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West made in a moment. Therefore, the important question is to decide whether we are likely to need this type of capability in the 10 years following 1969, and not whether we are likely to need it or whether it would be relevant in the 1980s or 1990s.
    Hon. Members on the Liberal benches and some other hon. Members believe that such an aircraft is unnecessary in Europe and that Britain will have no military responsibilities whatever outside Europe in 1969 requiring it. If that is what they believe, they are wrong on both points.
    As we said in this year's Defence White Paper, the aim of our diplomacy is to produce a situation outside Europe in which the local peoples can live at peace with one another without the continuing presence of external forces. But as I indicated earlier this afternoon, it is not possible, at this moment, to say when this can be achieved, and the right hon. Gentleman particularly asked me not to try to suggest a date for it. I do not know anyone who thinks that it would be
    112
    possible to produce such a situation and to withdraw all our forces from outside Europe within two years from now. To the extent that we can make progress in reducing our forces outside Europe—we have done much already in this respect and we hope to do more, as again I said earlier—our Commonwealth partners overseas are likely to want us most of all to retain a capability for helping them in case of need with the sophisticated air and naval forces which they themselves cannot now afford. That is a point which was put strongly to me by the two Commonwealth Governments with whom I discussed this type of problem last week in South-East Asia.
    This might still be the case even after circumstances had permitted us to leave our bases in the area altogether. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) believes that we should maintain a commitment to help Australia in her defence, even though he believes we should leave Singapore and Malaysia in the immediate future. It is difficult to think of any contribution which we could make to Australia's defence which would not require us to have this type of capability in our armoury.
    In my view, that is looking further ahead than we can clearly see at present. But, even in that situation—and still more while we have forces based outside Europe—we shall have to have aircraft with the capability to provide tactical strike and reconnaissance wherever our troops may be. Tactical strike and reconnaissance is the military umbrella which we must have to protect our forces —land, sea, or air—from attack. It would be militarily and morally indefensible to keep forces where they were subject to attack, or to send forces somewhere where they were likely to be subject to attack, unless we could provide them with the protection which they would then need. This protection applies to all stages of a crisis—before as well as after fighting has broken out.
    First, and critically important, is the reconnaissance capability of the aircraft. Unless we know what is going on, we cannot make the necessary military dispositions or take the necessary diplomatic action which may, by themselves, nip potential trouble in the bud and prevent fighting from breaking out. In 1964, reconnaissance aircraft provided us with

    113
    the first information of a developing crisis over Cyprus, without which we might have been unable to prevent general war in the Eastern Mediterranean and perhaps in Europe as a whole. Without reconnaissance aircraft, the Americans could not have obtained the information of Soviet missile sites in Cuba which may have enabled them to prevent a global thermo-nuclear holocaust.
    Mr. Lubbock: As the right hon. Gentleman has correctly said, there is a difference between thinking that one does not need a tactical strike and reconnaissance aircraft at all and thinking that one does not need an aircraft of this complexity and sophistication. However, does the right hon. Gentleman think that it would have been of any advantage to this country to have had an aircraft of this type in service at the time of the Cyprus crisis?
    Mr. Healey: The hon. Gentleman must understand that the Minister of Defence, like the Air Staff, must calculate what sort of weapons we may be up against in five, 10 or even 15 years' time. We are now talking about a weapon which does not even come into service until 1969, but which must remain an effective weapon for at least 10 years after it has come into service. I recall that the hon. Gentleman suggested the other day that we could do this reconnaissance work with missiles.
    Mr. Lubbock: No. I said that it could be done with satellites.
    Mr. Healey: But we do not ourselves have any satellites of this nature. In any case, satellites take days to provide the relevant information. They provide long-term reconnaissance information, but they would be of no value when dealing with, for example, the sort of situation in Cyprus.
    Mr. Christopher Mayhew Mr. Christopher Mayhew (Woolwich, East) rose——
    Mr. Healey: I cannot keep giving way. I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to get on with my speech without having to bob up and down mid-sentence. I must put to the House what is inevitably a long and complex argument, and I must get on.
    A reconnaissance capability is necessary to prevent a crisis from developing
    114
    to the point of war. The capability for tactical strike is equally important for this purpose. Indeed, in this modern age, more and more of our weapons are best fulfilling their primary function if they are never called upon to display their capabilities in action.
    Take our experience during confrontation, one of the most successful military campaigns in the history of the Commonwealth. Precisely because the fighting was always kept at the level of guerrilla fighting, we were not required, in three years' jungle fighting in Borneo, to use a combat aircraft once to fire a rocket or to drop a bomb. But if we were not known to have the capability for doing so, our opponents could have shot down the helicopters on which our forces depended for their supply; and, indeed, could have bombed our bases in Singapore and Malaysia.
    I believe that our military rôle outside Europe may increasingly be police action conducted at a low level of military conflict. But if we are to keep such actions at that level, all our military and political experience shows that such operations should be embarked upon only if supported by strike forces as a deterrent against escalation by the other side.
    This dual capability to deter attack by reconnaissance and the known capacity for strike is as necessary at sea as on land and our possession of the F111K will be particularly important when, with the phasing out of the carrier force in the middle 1970s, the Royal Navy loses its own capacity for strike.
    I come to the question asked in the Liberal Amendment: do we really need an advanced aircraft of this type and, if so, how many of them do we need for this particular purpose? This aircraft is as necessary in Europe as outside. Indeed, when the party opposite first defined the specification for the TSR2 it had the European theatre primarily in mind—and it is in the European theatre that we are liable to be up against very sophisticated weapons indeed. If Britain did not have such a capability, then the whole of Western Europe would depend on France and the United States alone for this critical element in its defence, and I cannot believe that that is really what the Liberal Party wants.

    115
    The main rôle of the FIIIK is, then, for tactical reconnaissance and strike with conventional weapons. I now turn to its specification—to why we need an advanced aircraft with the particular performance characteristics of the F111K.
    Mr. Powell: I think that the right hon. Gentleman inadvertently said that he was describing its main rôle. However, if he said that intentionally, would he indicate what are its other rôles?
    Mr. Healey: It has a small interception capability and, as I mentioned earlier, a capability to carry nuclear weapons, though that is not why we are buying it.
    Mr. Powell: Not now.
    Mr. Healey: Not at all. When I was in Canberra last year I discovered that, when the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West was teaching Greek at the university there, he had the nickname "textual pervert", the reason being that he was liable to base extraordinarily fantastic conclusions on some very simple use of words.
    The main rôle of the F111K is for tactical reconnaissance and strike with conventional weapons and, as I was saying, I turn to the question of its specification. I do not believe that there can be any argument between me and the Opposition at least about this, since the operational requirement for which the Government are buying the F111K is, in almost all respects, the same as that laid down by the former Conservative Administration for the TSR2.
    The basic point is that the performance of this aircraft must be such that a potential enemy knows that it can successfully carry out its tasks. Unless agreement can be reached among the great powers to stop the spread of sophisticated conventional weapons—and there is, unfortunately, no sign of this at present—it is likely that a number of comparatively small and poor countries will still be obtaining, in the 1970s as in the 1960s, highly sophisticated advanced weapons at cut prices from the Soviet Union, and, perhaps, from China. If our tactical strike and reconnaissance aircraft is to have its necessary deterrent power against countries so equipped, it must have maximum tactical flexibility, high
    116
    speed advanced performance, both at high altitude and at very low level, and an accurate means of navigating and aiming its weapons.
    Mr. F. A. Burden: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if this aircraft is to carry out its tactical performance and general requirement properly, it might well have to be equipped with tactical nuclear weapons? If so, why is the right hon. Gentleman apparently attempting to dodge the fact that tactical nuclear weapons might have to be carried, although Polaris might have the job of delivering the strategic missiles?
    Mr. Healey: I do not believe that it is likely, necessary or desirable, and to this extent I agree, in part, with the point often made by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West on this issue. Certainly outside Europe I cannot conceive of a requirement for the dropping of tactical nuclear weapons. In Europe it is another matter, but we can debate that on another occasion.
    Mr. R. T. Paget Mr. R. T. Paget (Northampton) rose——
    Mr. Healey: I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will allow me to continue for a little longer. I will give way every five or 10 minutes, but I cannot conduct a running conversation with every hon. Member in the Chamber.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser Mr. Hugh Fraser (Stafford and Stone) rose——
    Mr. Healey: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman later. I know that he helped to lay down the performance characteristics and will not quarrel with me about the need for an aircraft like the F111K.
    There is no doubt that variable geometry—a characteristic which the TSR2 did not have—has greatly eased the designer's task of combining all these characteristics in a single aircraft. In addition to the characteristics I have mentioned, we need a substantial range or radius of action, not only in relation to possible operational missions, but because good ferry range greatly adds to the ease and speed with which we can deploy our aircraft anywhere in the world. The mobility of our air forces

    117
    —and this is critically important—is increasingly important, not only to our strategic flexibility, but also to reduce our need for the base facilities which would otherwise be necessary.
    It was this combination of requirements which led the party opposite, when in power, to develop the operational requirement for the TSR2. I have considered whether I could give the House some details of the operational requirement for the TSR2, but I have regretfully come to the conclusion that it would be a mistake to do so, for its own sake and because it might create a precedent which neither the present nor any future Government would wish to follow.
    I can give some details of the performance of the Fl11K as it is now developing and I shall do so in a moment. What I want (to say now is that I think that the Opposition were right in requiring the special requirements they laid down for the TSR2, and it is still this requirement against which we must judge the F111K. In fact, on the whole, I think I am right in saying that the official Opposition, as distinct from the Liberal opposition, have contended, not that the requirement is not there, but that we need more than 50 F111Ks to fulfil it effectively.
    It is the fact that they themselves planned to buy 158 TSR2s. The Conservative Government had to envisage buying a very large number of TSR2s for industrial reasons and, in the absence of any collaborative programme, they were unable to spread the production economically over a number of years. To have bought only 50 TSR2s would have meant a unit cost of something like £9 million per aircraft. It was only by buying more than they needed that, in fact, they could hope to justify the enormous expenditure on research and development. required.
    We take a different view. On the best judgment we can make of the development of the military capability of potential enemies, we believe that the V-bombers will be adequate as tactical strike aircraft during the early years of the 1970s, provided that we have the minimum force of advanced aircraft with the type of specification I have been discussing. But, by the mid-1970s, we shall have to replace the V-bombers in this rôle by an aircraft with comparable perform-
    118
    ance to the F111, and that is the rôle of the AFVG.
    I do not deny that the F111K is an expensive programme—though, as I shall show, it is many hundreds of millions of £s cheaper than the programme we inherited—but I cannot accept the argument that these aircraft are so expensive that we would not be prepared or could not afford to use them. It is a mistake to get carried away here by unit costs. The fact is that the cost of these aircraft, though high, is not nearly so high as that of many other items the loss of which we must be prepared to contemplate—submarines, frigates, army units. Indeed, even allowing for R. and D. expenditure on the AFVG, and including the F111K credit-phased capital repayment, the whole programe will be at most about 4 per cent. of the annual defence budget in the 1970s. This is a premium we must be prepared to pay if we are to have this essential capability in the requisite numbers.
    What is far more relevant is that we have satisfied ourselves, as a result of series of detailed scientifically-based studies, that this force, with aircraft of this specification, will be adequate to carry out the tasks which we envisage as potentially realistic for it in the 1970s. We must have equipment of an adequate standard at the right time when the lives of men are at stake. This is the basis of our whole policy.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to intervene in his very interesting argument to correct him on two points. He said that the former Conservative Government wanted to build 158 TSR2s, but that the Government agreed to build 110. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman must remember that there was a need, and is one, for a replacement for the Canberra in Europe, using the smaller type of atomic bomb in the tactical rôle, and that is vital to the argument.
    Mr. Healey: With respect, the programme which I inherited in my Ministry included 158 TSR2s. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to develop his other point if he catches Mr. Speaker's eye.
    All I would say in this phase, and I say it as much to my hon. Friends as to the Opposition, is that defence in the present age is appallingly expensive, and

    119
    it is getting more expensive every year. That is why we in the present Government give such high priority to disarmament—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite do their party discredit by sniggering every time disarmament is mentioned. I would remind them that the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) himself made disarmament the core of his own White Paper in 1957. We think that he was right to do so, even if he was wrong in regard to other aspects of defence policy.
    The fact is that, until we can achieve some control of armaments, we must try to restrict our commitments and get maximum value for money in the weapons we need for the commitments which remain. But there is in every field a minimum level of performance which can only be fixed by the most thorough analysis of the potential threat below which a weapon is worse than useless. To provide our forces with equipment which is not sufficient for their tasks is not only to waste all the money thus expended, but also to waste human life; and I do not believe that any responsible Government would ever knowingly condemn its soldiers, sailors or airmen to death by acting in such a way.
    I know that the House is interested to know about the current state of the project, how it is progressing, and to what extent it will be likely to meet our requirement. I will try to make my remarks brief. We have already given a great deal of information to the House, and the project has been under the continuous glare of publicity some of it inaccurate and malicious. On the other hand, to hon. Members who are interested in reading a good layman's summary, I would commend the article in "Flight International" of 30th March.
    My staff and the Ministry of Technology have kept in constant close touch with the American Department of Defense and the main U.S. contractors—General Dynamics and Pratt and Whitney during the last two years. We have our own project team in the United States alongside the U.S.A.F. Systems Command and the contractor. Royal Air Force aircrew have flown the aircraft. Sir John Grandy, the newlyappointed Chief of the Air Staff, has flown the aircraft, and I hope that he
    120
    will not mind my breaching the normal rules in this respect by quoting him as saying that flying this aircraft was to him a quantum jump like flying his very first jet, and that variable geometry gives a new capability to the aircraft which is a new dimension in flying. Royal Air Force technical personnel are currently working out detailed servicing arrangements and procedures.
    All this may seem obvious, but I make these points because so many people seem to think that the Royal Air Force will be buying a pig in a poke about which it knows nothing. The fact is that we completed a very thorough review before the implementing sales order was signed last month. We satisfied ourselves that the aircraft could be expected to give the range, speed and weapon carrying capacity we require.
    On range, even after allowing for the drag problem—on which the United States Air Force is confident it will recover the deficiencies—it will be at least 500 miles above the TSR2 requirement, and extra range is, of course, a great bonus and can always be exchanged for extra pay load. On speed and extra manoeuvrability, although I do not want to play down the problems arising from intake matching, we are confident that it will meet our requirements. I should explain that the problem is more serious in the context of the use of the aircraft as an interceptor; but, even so, American confidence can be seen from the scale of the programme on which they are embarking.
    Mr. Victor Goodhew: The Secretary of State said just now that the range of the aircraft was 500 miles greater than the TSR2 requirement. How does it compare with the TSR2 performance?
    Mr. Healey: We never had a fully-developed TSR2, so it is difficult to say. I can say that the ferry range of this aircraft is substantially in excess of that planned even for the TSR2, and 500 miles in excess of the requirement laid down for the TSR2, which is another matter.
    But we tend, when concentrating on these two aspects, to overlook the other parts of the whole aircraft system which are equally essential to the effectiveness

    121
    and survivability of the aircraft, and which are of great importance to us when our numbers are comparatively few. I refer here to terrain following capability, on which the R. and D programme has been highly successful; the navigation-attack system where already on the Mark I avionics, greater accuracies than expected have been achieved, which gives great encouragement for the Mark II system; the ease of servicing and maintainability which is so important to the use of the aircraft from overseas bases, and where it will be vastly superior to the TSR2.
    As regards bomb load, comparative capabilities are interesting. With its wings swept back, the F111K can carry a maximum load three times that of the Canberra and only slightly less than that of the Vulcan. With its wings unswept the F11l load is over five times that of the Canberra and more than one-and-half times that of the Vulcan. That, as the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) knows, is a very formidable difference indeed.
    We have good reason to be confident that the R.A.F. will get an aircraft which will meet its requirements. Moreover, by 1968—next year—it will be already in service in the United States Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force. So there is a good chance that its initial teething troubles will be overcome by the time we take it. We currently plan to start delivery at the end of 1968, but we may ask to be allowed to take the aircraft a little later so as to be able to phase it with the introduction of some British systems which it is essential to have operating by the time when we aim to start operating the aircraft themselves. My hon. Friend will say something about one of the systems concerned when he winds up the debate. The delivery of the last aircraft will be as planned in the original schedule.
    Mr. Powell: Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say, or to imply, that this aircraft would be in squadron service with other countries before it is with us?
    Mr. Healey: Yes, certainly. It will be in service with the United States Air Force next year. I do not know what the Australian plans are for squadron service.
    Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: If the engineer manufacturers are unable to get rid of the handling troubles which they do not know how to cure at the moment, will we postpone delivery until after the fix, or will we take it without satisfactory handling?
    Mr. Healey: I have indicated that we shall not take the aircraft unless it meets our specifications.
    Now I turn to the question of costs and the implications for the defence budget of our decision to cancel the TSR2 and to purchase a small number of F111s. Let me make clear what sort of costs we are talking about. I have seen some very misleading comparisons in the Press. The Daily Telegraph today, for example, draws some very weird and wonderful conclusions by comparing the figure for research development and production alone for the TSR2, a figure which was substantially lower than when we cancelled the aircraft, with a 10-year programme cost for the F111, which is nearly three times as high as the R.D. and P. costs. It is essential to compare like with like, although I do not blame any hon. Member for getting confused as this is very difficult. I hope, therefore, that the House will allow me to present as a whole this part of my speech. It is inevitably rather complex. Let me dispose of the point about bombs.
    Our bomb stock will have to be modified for any supersonic aircraft. It would have to have been modified for the Royal Navy Phantoms which the previous Government were buying and the TSR2 and the AFVG or almost any combat bomber in the 1970s. Therefore, there is nothing peculiar about the F111 in this respect. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone will inform the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest more closely if he wishes.
    As I have done in the past, I shall talk mainly of programme costs since it is not sufficient merely to concentrate on initial capital costs. By programme costs I mean the costs of research and development and production of the aircraft itself and its support equipment, the cost of initial spares and loan interest, together with the recurring costs of spares—petrol, oil and lubricants and squadron personnel—over a period of time. Necessarily at the outset of the programme

    123
    there must be an element of estimating as regards some at least of the component parts of these programme costs; but this applies to both programmes, though, as I shall mention later, the budgetary risks in the TSR2 programme were considerably greater. Moreover, for reasons of defence budgeting, it may be desirable to vary from time to time the way in which payments are made under the American Credit Agreement.
    As I said, we must relate costs to time-scale. I propose to compare the F111 and the TSR2 in three different ways with a different timescale in each. In the first I take the 15 year period from March, 1965—when we cancelled TSR2—to March, 1980. This is a long period but it allows me to take fully into account the changes we made in the forward plans for the tactical strike reconnaissance force—i.e. a small purchase of F111s, the retention of the V-bombers, and our complete planned buy of the Anglo-French VG in the strike rôle to replace the V-bombers and later the Buccaneers. On the TSR2 side of the equation it allows for 158 TSR2s as planned by the Conservative Government, and for the replacement of the RN Buccaneers; however, that might have been done in the TSR2 era. It also means that all the costs pre-1965 on the TSR2 can be excluded from each side, and on the F111 side I allow for all subsequent cancellation charges. Hon. Members will agree that this is a fair comparison, however we take it. I have done my calculations at current price levels and have, therefore, adjusted the early 1965 TSR2 figures by 10 per cent. This is a very moderate figure, in my view, as I shall make clear in the next stage of my speech.
    What emerges is that over the 15 years from April, 1965, to March, 1980, the TSR2 programme as planned by the previous Administration and adjusted, as I have explained, would have cost over £700 million more than the cost of the programme we have adopted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am giving the figures now. Of course, it is not possible to achieve perfect accuracy when looking at costs, but these are the best cost figures we have been able to work out; and the gross figures here are £1,700 million for the TSR2 programme—the programme costs over the whole period
    124
    —as against £1,000 million of the F111K and the Anglo-French VG programme. This is a very sizeable figure indeed, going far beyond any area of doubt about estimating assumption. Readers of the Sunday Express may be interested to know that it represents 140 hospitals.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing Sir Ian Orr-Ewing (Hendon, North) rose——
    Mr. Healey: If I may complete this part of my speceh I will give way to the hon. Member later.
    My second comparison is simpler. It is over 10 years; and in this I compare the programme costs of 50 F111s and 50 TSR2s to March, 1976, although for many reasons, as I have already said, 50 TSR2s would have been a very unrealistic programme involving a unit cost of some £9 million an aircraft. But I make the comparison nevertheless, because it allows me to establish in absolute terms comparative costs of our alternative solutions. Here over this 10-year period we come out with a saving of just under £300 million or 60 hospitals. Under these parameters the cost of 50 TSR2s comes out at £610 million as against £336 million for 50 F111s.
    The figure I have given for programme costs of the 50 Fills is somewhat higher than that I gave a year ago for a number of reasons. First, we now plan to make certain payments within the 10-year period which previously fell outside it. Secondly, the figures include an element for contingencies, and for wage/ material inflation. Thirdly, the estimated cost of support items has increased mainly owing to the closer definition of British support equipment such as simulators and reconnaissance pods; and finally further interest will arise on the credit elements of all these changes. Further, only £10 million of the increase is in dollar expenditure, and the running cost element within this total has come down compared with our estimates a year ago, because we are now able to quantify the advantages of large-scale American production in the price we shall pay for spares. Finally, the new estimate for F111 costs includes a figure for cancellation charges on the TSR2.
    My third comparison brings the time scale even closer to the present. Almost

    125
    £200 million of this £300 million difference over the next 10 years arises in the two-year period from 1968 to 1970, at a time when the R.A.F. programme in other fields—ground attack, transport, maritime—is also very heavily committed and would have been very much more heavily committed still if we had gone on with the P1 154 and the HS681.
    In short, however we look at it, whatever period we take, and whatever comparison we take, the solution we have adopted has very significant defence budget advantages.
    Now a word about the two items of critical importance to the comparisons—the TSR2 R, D and production costs, and the comparable arrangements for the F111. This is where the guesses made by the right hon. Gentleman go wildly astray. I am puzzled by the emphasis some hon. Members opposite have placed on the wage/material cost inflation in the F111 programme. I am even more puzzled by the suggestion that in some sense this has been a deadly secret, a suggestion made in a melodramatic article by Mr. Chapman Pincher in the Daily Express on 22nd April. This type of provision is normal in contract procedures, and it was referred to in the Daily Express itself as long ago as 19th August last year, in an article from its Washington correspondent, Mr. Ross Mark. I can only assume that Mr. Pincher spends so much time reading other people's writings that he does not have very much time to read his own newspaper. The Tory Government accepted such provision in the case of their own purchase of Phantoms from the United States, although they said nothing to the House about it, and I do not complain about that. It is quite a normal thing.
    Now let us see, however, what the Tory Government did on the TSR2. Here I would refer the House to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Ministry of Aviation account for 1964–65.The Report reads:
    "The contractor submitted prices based on target costs which, if the targets had been achieved, would have reduced the price for development and production to £650 million but provided no upper limit to the Exchequer's liability."
    In fact, as I told the House two years ago, the manufacturers were totally unable to offer a fixed price delivery. Any
    126
    further substantial cost increase, not only for inflation reasons, but also because of developmental difficulties, would have fallen on the British Government alone. I think I am being very generous to the TSR2 programme in accepting the March 1965 estimate of cost for purposes of my comparison, for in 1965 the project had already escalated by £400 million, or 150 per cent., in the previous four years and had at least three more years to go before delivery started. In fact, the original estimate for R and D for the TSR2 made by the Tory Government was £48 million. It had risen to £280 million by the time the project was cancelled, with three years still to go, in March, 1965.
    Let us set this total of unlimited liability on the TSR2 programme against the arrangements we have made for the F111. We have a ceiling price of £2·1 million on the basic aircraft, subject to the adjustment for escalation in wage and material costs from April, 1965. The point I was trying to make to the right hon. Gentleman was that if our wage and material costs escalate similarly, as they have broadly ever since the war, then in fact the cost to us in terms of real resources will not change, because we shall be paying with money which buys less in British goods. Although we are paying a higher amount, the two things will balance out. If the right hon. Gentleman tries to think about it for a few moments, he will see that I am right on that.
    For the cost of the special British features we obtained up-to-date information in March before proceeding——
    Mr. Stephen Hastings Mr. Stephen Hastings (Mid-Bedfordshire) rose——
    Mr. Healey: I ask the hon. Gentleman to let me finish the cost part. Then I will give way to the two hon. Members opposite who have sought to interrupt me.
    We obtained up-to-date information before proceeding with the order for the balance of 40 aircraft and will soon have agreed a fixed ceiling. When I say "soon", I am not talking about years hence, as the right hon. Gentleman attempted to suggest in a quotation from Aviation Week. I am talking about the next month or so.
    The information we obtained in March confirmed our earlier view that, ignoring

    127
    the inflation adjustment to the basic ceiling, we could be quite satisfied that the unit cost of the F111K with the British equipment continued to be about £2½ million, as we had always said.
    The key difference between this position and that which faced us in the TSR2 case lies in the degree of financial risk that lay before us. I cannot believe that anybody who has any experience of cost escalation in real terms in a new aircraft programme—some hon. Members obviously have a lot of experience of this; I have just quoted one example—can deny that our arrangement on the F111 severely restricts our liability and confines the degree of financial risk to the very limited extent of money inflation.
    Compare this with the steep increases in the TSR2 programme over the years, which cannot be explained away by changes in either the operational requirement, which stayed very stable, or in money values. Moreover, as I have indicated, there would have been no upper limit to the Exchequer's liability in the face of the likelihood of further development difficulties in such a complex programme. It baffles the imagination to assume, as I have generously assumed in presenting this argument, that over the following two years of the TSR2 programme there would have been none of the sorts of difficulties we had in the first four years. On the other hand, whatever work has to be done to overcome the present F111 difficulties will not affect the ceiling price. I submit that, for such a major project, this represents as good a control over our ultimate liability as we could ever hope to get.
    It is no good hon. Members opposite taking refuge in the fact that there is no ceiling price for spares. Here again, our liability is limited, although in a different way, in that we shall be able, as with the other American aircraft we are buying, to take advantage of the American co-operative logistics system under which we pay the same price as the United States Air Force. This provides us with a sound safeguard as regards price and is the straight answer to any critics who, on the one hand, accept that our arrangement on the aircraft is a good one but, on the other, carp at it by suggesting that we are wide open on the spares front.
    128
    The fact is that we shall buy at the same price as the American Air Force, with the advantage of lower individual prices because of mass production to meet its requirements. We shall save on stock holding costs, too, because we shall be buying from American Air Force stocks, but we shall not be compelled to accept American Air Force scales for spares: we shall fix our own.
    Besides the normal provision for wage/material cost inflation, there is only one other way in which the cost of this aircraft might conceivably increase. The special modifications we require for the Royal Air Force are exceptions to the basic ceiling price. As I have explained, they will be covered in the supplemental ceiling in a few weeks' time, and we are satisfied that they will bring the total figure up to that of £2½ million which was our original target.
    It is not unlikely that either the American Air Force or ourselves might decide at some stage in the aircraft's operation or development to introduce some further modification. This would obviously be an extra item for which we should pay if we thought it worthwhile. If the American Air Force made a proposal which we did not think would be of value to us, we could reject it, though for production reasons the aircraft we received might have it installed, even though we were not paying for it.
    The 10-year programme cost figures which I have quoted include a contingency to cover this possibility, but there is no evidence available at present to suggest that this contingency is likely to arise. The really important point—I stress this to the House—is that the cost of overcoming the present development difficulties in the United States will not—I repeat, not—affect the basic ceiling price which we have agreed.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing Sir Ian Orr-Ewing rose——
    Mr. Hastings Mr. Hastings rose——
    Mr. Healey: I now give way.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate to which hon. Gentleman he gives way?
    Mr. Healey: I give way to the first of the two hon. Gentlemen who interrupted me.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: These figures are interesting, but it is impossible to make comparisons, because the right hon. Gentleman does not break down the items within each category. In comparing these two sets of figures, how much has the right hon. Gentleman allowed for R and D on the AFVG during this time scale? He told us that he had allowed for this. How much has been allowed?
    Mr. Healey: In broad terms, I allowed up to £150 million falling on Britain for research and development on the AFVG, but, as I said—I do not want to mislead the House here—the first com parison, the one which I made on the 15-year cost period, inevitably involves greater degrees of tolerance in cost estimating than the one over the next 10 years when we are dealing much more with quantities of which we have experience and about which we know. The point I make on the 15-year comparison, which is the only one into which the AFVG can sensibly be brought as part of the equation, is that the cost difference there is so enormous that no minor adjustment of the estimating conventions could enable hon. Members opposite to claim that there was not an enormous saving, of many hundreds of millions of £s, on our programme as against the one which we inherited.
    Mr. Tam Dalyell: A factual point: does my right hon. Friend assume £150 million for research and development on the part of the French? We are going 50–50 now, are we not?
    Mr. Healey: For heaven's sake—with respect, I do not include in the British programme costs, costs which the French Government or any other Government will carry.
    Mr. Dalyell: They carry £150 million, too, do they?
    Mr. Healey: I am assuming that there is an equal share——
    Mr. Dalyell: Three hundred million?
    Mr. Healey: Yes, but I do not believe that it is likely to be anything near as high as that. The figures to which I have given support in the House are something like £100 million to £125 million as the estimated programme costs. I am not prepared to assert this at the moment, but I think that those figures are more in the
    130
    range of tolerance. However, as I say, looking this far ahead, one inevitably runs into uncertainties on either side of the programme, which can throw the figures out to some extent, though only marginally.
    Mr. Hastings: The right hon. Gentleman made quite a point of escalation in research and development costs for the TSR2 and, of course, they did escalate, but, to put the matter in proportion, will he not agree—this is certainly my impression—that the Armed Services Committee of the Congress believed that the escalation for the F111, on a comparable basis, was of the order of 50 per cent.?
    Mr. Healey: I do not know what they think, but, if we take 50 per cent. for the estimated difference, we do not contribute towards that because we have a ceiling price on the basic aircraft, and that compares with an escalation of over 500 per cent. on the TSR2. With respect, the hon. Gentleman, who has made such a point of championing the TSR2, can take no comfort from that comparison. I only wish that the TSR2 programme had been subject to the same sort of cost control as the F111 in the United States.
    I shall leave my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Ministry of Technology, to deal with questions on the offset, which, I think, the right hon. Gentleman did not raise but on which questions may be raised later in the debate. He will deal also with questions which may arise on the impact of the programme on the aircraft industry. I now summarise what I have said so far by saying that we have been guided by three main considerations: first, to provide the Royal Air Force with the aircraft it needs to deter aggression and to keep the peace; second, to maintain the necessary level of technological expertise in the aircraft industry—my hon. Friend will deal with that when he winds up; third, and critically important, to keep the taxpayer's insurance premium to a minimum.
    The present aircraft programme meets all these three requirements. The TSR2 would have been a fine aircraft. We have never denied that cost was the problem there. But the F111 is its equal: militarily there was little to choose between them. The TSR2 priced itself out of existence. This is not surprising. It is a fact of economic life which we have to face that no country of the size of ours

    131
    can build aircraft of this complexity unless assured of a large market. The review of the place of the aircraft industry in the economy, which we undertook when we came into office, was long overdue. The Plowden Report has now confirmed that future requirements for large and complex weapons systems should be developed collaboratively, built under licence, or bought from the United States. Our country simply cannot afford a purely domestic venture like the TSR2.
    This is a difficult fact to face, but face it we must. This Government at least has had the courage to face it when there was still time to save the taxpayer hundreds of millions of £s which otherwise might have gone down the drain. Since we had to replace the Canberra by 1970, there would be no time then to collaborate with anyone. It was fortunate for us that the Americans had under development the F111 designed to a requirement almost identical with that for the Canberra replacement. The purchase of the aircraft met the short-term aim of replacing the Canberras by 1970, at considerable saving to the taxpayer. I believe that the balance of all the military, industrial and financial arguments is firmly on the side of the programme which we have laid down.
    I make this point to some hon. Members opposite. I know, personally, that the Royal Air Force, at the highest levels, has every confidence in the F111. They know it well. They have flown it. It is indisputably the finest strike aircraft in the world. Its quality will be seen when it enters R.A.F. service. Meanwhile, let me make one more point, and that strongly.
    Ill-informed criticism of this aircraft, criticism which often originates in the vested interest of people with commercial considerations at heart, serves no one's interests but our enemies'. Worse, it erodes the confidence and morale of the young airmen who will be called upon to fly it. They will be operating a revolutionary machine performing on the frontiers of aerodynamic knowledge. They will be entrusted with very expensive apparatus, shouldering great responsibilities. Their morale is at stake.
    We, too, have responsibilities, to see that the aircrew are backed by our own confidence and by our best efforts for their
    132
    safety and success. To attempt to score political points by inaccurate or malicious comments on a fine aircraft harms more than the reputation of the hon. Member who attempts it; it is a blow against the Royal Air Force, our defence interests, and ourselves.
    I have covered most of the points of substance raised by the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend will deal with the rest in winding up. In so far as it is possible to distinguish the shape of the wood among all the trees, the right hon. Gentleman's main argument against the Government seemed to be that we were not providing enough information on the costs and performance of the aircraft, and, second, that in buying the aircraft we were imposing an unjustified financial load on the taxpayer.
    Both points are without substance, as I have tried to show. I have given a great mass of detailed information on the cost and specification of the F111K, as I have sought to do on all major items of equipment for all three Services since I have been in my present office. Evidently, the appetite grows on what it feeds on, and hon. Members would like more. Whenever I feel I can give more information without damaging our security, I shall do so, but I confess to a feeling of disappointment that, so often, the availability of much more information on these matters encourages some hon. Members to concentrate far too much on minor questions of detail at the expense of the major issues of defence and foreign policy on which I believe it is the duty of the House to comment.
    But for a front bench Member of the party opposite to criticise me for not giving more information requires a truly staggering effrontery. Let us take their own behaviour on the TSR2 and compare it with what the Comptroller and Auditor General was able to unearth in his Report on the Civil Appropriation Accounts for 1964–65. Here are some examples.
    The 1960 Statement on Defence states that,
    "considerable progress has been made with the detailed design of the TSR2 aircraft for the strike and reconnaissance rôle."
    That is all. It does not say that the estimated development cost was £80 million to £90 million covering work up

    133
    to full release in all rôles in 1966. I am not surprised that some hon. Members feel it healthier to leave the Chamber at this point. Neither does it say that the Ministry of Aviation had warned the Treasury that it would be prudent to assume that the estimated cost would rise when more detailed estimates became available. We had to wait five years for this information, and it was produced not by the party opposite, but by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
    The 1961 Defence White Paper was silent on the subject. The 1962 Report on Defence said:
    "the TSR2, which is planned to come into service in the mid-sixties, will make an important contribution in this rôle."
    —that is, strike and recce. One notices that, this time, there is uncertainty about the date compared with the earlier reference to 1966, and that was just as well since, within a month or so of publication, the cost of development was up to £137 million, and full release had gone back to the latter part of 1967. We did not learn that from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. We learnt it three years later from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
    The 1963 White Paper said nothing about the TSR2 or anything else—it was only 18 lines in all. But paragraph 12 of the R.A.F. memorandum has brave words about the potentialities and the importance of the aircraft. Let us compare these with the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. By now the Finance and Contracts Monitoring Committee
    "… appeared to have been unable to anticipate or give warning of any of the successive major increases in the contractor's estimated costs."
    Yet in January, 1963 the estimate of development costs was up to £175-£200 million, with full release at the end of 1968. But we still had to wait two years to get that information from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
    The 1964 White Paper, the last the party opposite produced, again had some brave words. It said in paragraph 165:
    "The most notable example of such progress"—
    in technology—
    "is the TSR2—which will make its first flight shortly. This aircraft promises to be one of
    134
    the most potent and flexible instruments of military power yet devised …".
    A month before this the development cost had gone up to £240–£260 million, the higher figure allowing for a further possible 12 to 18 months' delay on the completion of the programme. The year 1966 had become virtually 1970 but there was not a word of that to the House or country from the party opposite when in power.
    For the representatives of a party with the TSR2 in its record to accuse the present Government of inadequate care for the taxpayers' money and for the rights of Parliament takes some nerve. When I look at the right hon. Gentleman's record of consistent miscalculation in hospital programmes when he was Minister of Health, I wonder that he has the gall to face the House as he did this afternoon. Of course, the cost of the F111K is high, but, as I have shown, over the next 15 years our programme for tactical strike and reconnaissance will cost £700 million less than that of the party opposite. This is only one example of our concern with cost compared with the profligate extravagance of the party opposite.
    As I showed in the defence debate, in our first three years of office we have cut £750 million off the firm programme of the previous Administration, a programme which was costed in detail by Mr. Thorneycroft, and whose costs were checked and accepted by the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. But if we were to follow the advice of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West—he is, after all, the official defence spokesman of the Opposition—even the extravagance of the previous Administration would pale into insignificance by comparison. On top of opposing every single cut we have made in his party's defence programme, he has told us we must have an Army in being equal in armament, training and philosophy to any other in Europe, and capable of fighting a prolonged conventional war on the continent. Even assuming the other allies played their part—and there is no reason for assuming that—this would mean Britain having to produce well over the four divisions of some 77,000 men promised to N.A.T.O. by the Conservative Government in 1954.

    135
    It would mean a return to conscription and an increase in the defence budget of at least £30 million a year.
    I see that the right hon. Gentleman has now come out in the Sunday Times in favour of pitting ourselves against the whole of the Soviet fleet in a new Battle of the Atlantic. If we took seriously the views he expressed in the Sunday Times only a week ago, we should have to build perhaps another 30 nuclear attack submarines at a cost of close on £1,000 million, not to speak of expanding enormously our fleet of surface submarine hunters to meet the vast Russian fleet of conventional submarines.
    If there is any consistent thinking behind these statements, the only possible criticism of the F111K purchase which hon. Members opposite could make, is that we should be buying three or four times as many. This would complete their picture of the future Britain: a nation in arms—bust to the wide. I ask the House to reject their Motion.
    5.24 p.m.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I do not want to delay the House long, but I should like just to remark on a few points made by the Secretary of State for Defence in the more reasonable part of his speech, before it turned into an acid and vituperative attack on right hon. Members on this side of the House.
    It is unfortunate that, having spent so much good time converting those behind him to the need for a tactical strike reconnaissance rôle and heavy expenditure on aircraft, he should have turned on my right hon. Friends in the last moments of his speech. If the Government are determined to buy the F111 now, everyone on both sides of the House wishes to see that aircraft a success. That is not in question. What is in question is some of the things the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon in the general policy which he laid out.
    Everyone who has studied these matters is agreed on the need for a strike reconnaissance aircraft. But there are enormous weaknesses in the right hon. Gentleman's programme between now and 1970–80 which are for the consideration of the House. He said that instead of the TSR2 programme, whether it be of 110 or 158 aircraft, we should now have
    136
    50 F111s, plus the vulcan force—what remains of it—plus the AFVG, and that this would give us a tactical strike reconnaissance force suitable to deal with all the Government's various commitments overseas.
    I have only two points to make immediately, and I hope that they will be answered by the hon. Gentleman when he replies to the debate. First, there was no mention in the right hon. Gentleman's speech of the Canberra replacement in Europe, which is essential to the support of B.A.O.R., with a tactical nuclear weapon. He talked about the certainty of the AFVG, but over the past few years I have constantly intervened in defence or aircraft debates on that subject and it is clear that the British and French Air Staffs are diametrically opposed. The French want a fighter-interceptor and we want a strike reconnaissance plane continuation of the TSR2 rôle—I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to me for a moment. He must know his right hon. Friend's views very well.
    It is absolutely essential to state that difference, for otherwise the figures of £700 million between the two programmes are based on non-existent "facts" and aircraft which at the moment are unlikely to fly. That is the main confusion, and the Minister knows it full well. The AFVG is a paper aeroplane.
    My other point concerns the costs, whether one takes those for 1965–80, 1965–75, 1968–78. The Minister suggested that the late Government were entered on a commitment beyond reason and absolutely without limit. I believe that that is wrong and a false presentation of the case. I think that the figures which he inherited were for 110 TSR2s, which had been supported by the Cabinet. As the last Secretary of State for Air, I supported a rather higher figure. If he looks at the costs worked out, whether those before the Public Accounts Committee or inside his own Department, he will see that the claims he has made that this Government would save about £1,200 million in aircraft procurement for this country are false and need to be most carefully studied.
    The other and much more important point is for this House and the country to review what advantage will be given by the sort of programme the right hon.

    137
    Gentleman is pursuing. I find myself in accord with him on the question of the aircraft carrier. I believe that he has taken a bold and right decision. I know that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends do not agree with me on this. I fought that battle in my own way in my own day. But that decision having been taken, it surely stands to reason that the country must have the right type of aircraft and in sufficient numbers, and the trouble we find today is that the commitments we have overseas—they have in no way diminished—must stand more and more upon the ability of the R.A.F. to support them.
    Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may have done in saving money—and many of these figures are questionable—what we are left with is an Air Force with insufficient numbers in strike and reconnaissance aircraft, with paper aircraft which we are not clear will ever fly, a Phantom aircraft which will only take off from very long runways and in close support is not as good as it should be, and a vertical take off aircraft which, remarkable though it may be, will not have sufficient armament to fly on its own.
    This is the heritage that the right hon. Gentleman has given to the defence of Britain. He has done many good things. He is a bold man. But to suggest to the country that 50 F111Ks plus the Vulcan bombers, which are going out anyway, plus an aircraft not yet agreed to by the Chiefs of Staff here or in France, are enough is not justified by our defence needs.
    5.32 p.m.
    Mr. E. S. Bishop: It is a pleasure to address the House again after an enforced silence on the Front Bench. One of the reasons that I returned to the back benches was that I would be able to answer some of the things that I had to tolerate in silence from the Opposition. I suspect that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) was more anxious to condemn our decision to get rid of the TSR2 than he was to get elucidation of the F111K situation. We are grateful to him at least for initiating the debate because it has enabled my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary to give an explanation of many conflicting statements made by the Opposition and the Press.
    138
    We would all pay tribute to my right hon. Friend on two scores. The first is the way in which he has tried to relate our commitments and defence policy to the economic situation. The second is the detailed way in which he has answered questions today. I last addressed the House in a major debate on 13th December, 1965. It was on the subject of the F111K and I asked a number of questions. The first was whether the Government needed an aircraft to replace the TSR2.
    When one discusses defence projects and rôles, strategy and needs, one has to have some idea of what the commitments are in various parts of the world and one is conscious of the fact that the Opposition were responsible in Government for piling up the commitments and liabilities which the present Government are desperately trying to curtail. In the light of the defence needs of the time and of the period ahead—possibly eight to ten years—my right hon. Friend has shouldered a very great task.
    As I have said, I asked in that debate whether it was necessary to replace the TSR2 at all. I asked whether it was not possible to offset some of the rôles and responsibilities for which it was intended and whether the operational requirements were not excessive for the needs of the time. I asked whether the F111K was not too sophisticated and whether the Buccaneer or the Spey/ Mirage would not be able to fulfil the job.
    Like many of my hon. Friends, I deplored the situation in which the Government felt obliged to buy American aircraft. I regretted having to spend dollars on them. I thought that we should do our utmost to offset the dollar cost by insisting that the United States purchased some of our products in order to bring about a balance of cost. The Government, then and now, have been faced with the position in which there are many pressing requirements at home in a difficult economic situation. We need to curtail our liabilities and relate them to our economic ability to pay for the things we need. All these points were relevant in 1965 and are relevant today.
    Most of us deplored the need to buy American aircraft because this was also an advertisement for American goods as against our own and could have done

    139
    great harm, even with the substantial offsets which have been brought about. But, having said that, I must say that it is gross impertinence of the Opposition to deplore our decision to buy American aircraft—which is what they are really doing—when it was they who, when in office, committed us to this great liability. Furthermore, one must compare their ordering of the Phantom, the CI30 and other aircraft, which started us on the slippery slope.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: How does the hon. Gentleman allege that we ordered the C130? That was one of the earlier follies of the present Government.
    Mr. Bishop: The Conservative Government, either by ordering American aircraft direct or by leaving behind deficiencies in the British aircraft programme, made it essential for the Government who were to succeed—I use that word in the two ways—to order American aircraft. The fact is that the Conservative Government, in office for 13 years, should have reviewed the position long before. I remind the Opposition that their stewardship led Sir Roy Dobson, Chairman of Hawker Siddleley, to say:
    "the Conservatives just wouldn't make up their minds about anything; they just waffled."
    That is still the situation with the party opposite. They can present no genuine alternative to the Government's policy. It is inconsistent for any party responsible for the cancellation of at least 26 aircraft projects while they were in power, at a cost of at least £300 million, to attempt a minor censure of the present Government's policy. We know the immense problems before my right hon. Friend. He has to estimate our defence rôle and decide the strategy. He must decide on what is needed to fulfil that rôle and anticipate our needs eight or ten years ahead. He must decide on the specifications—whether short range, long range or medium range, high level or low level, subsonic or supersonic—and all these other technical aspects so as to ensure, that, when the time should come, the aircraft are ready for their rôle. The weapons we need and the strategy we employ are of great importance to our country. We shall need advanced aircraft.
    140
    When the decision had to be taken on the TSR2, the Government knew very well that the aircraft would have been ready too late and at too great a cost. For good or ill the choice had to fall on the FIIIK on the ground that it would be ready much more quickly and at a considerably lower cost. The figures given by my right hon. Friend today fully confirm that point of view and the forecast made at the time.
    At the time, some of my hon. Friends and I suggested that the Government should give serious consideration to the alternatives of the Buccaneer and the Spey/Mirage. It was suggested that the Spey engine could be put into the Mirage. All these matters of "know-how" and experience are important if we are to make the right decision in the long run. We realised, of course, that we could not just take an engine from the Mirage and hope to produce what we wanted in a very short time. It is very important to bear in mind when discussing and assessing aircraft needs that an aircraft designed for one rôle cannot be adapted to fulfil the needs of another rôle in a short time and at no great cost. With the Spey/Mirage, engines would have had to be fitted and the centre of gravity would have been affected as would the centre sections, the nacelles and the aerodynamic features and much else. In the circumstances, deplorable though it was, we were forced to buy American aircraft, and the Government did the only thing possible to guarantee that the operational requirements would be met in the early 1970s.
    In deciding on the replacement for the Canberra, the Government had to consider three major factors. There was, first, the Royal Air Force, and I am sure that we all agree that the R.A.F. ought to have the best possible aircraft and weapons at the lowest possible cost to carry out its rôle. Secondly, it is important in future as in the past for the Government at all times to consider the effect of their policies on the British aircraft industry. Those are two basic considerations in matters of this sort. Thirdly, at the same time as we were condemned by the Opposition for cancelling one or two other British projects, we all know that had those projects continued, the sought-after Anglo-French collaboration which is

    141
    now a reality would not have been possible. The curtailment of the TSR2 programme has resulted, as my right hon. Friend has said, in substantial savings and in ensuring that we get the specification needed and that it is available at the right time.
    My right hon. Friend made one or two points which are most important to total costs. The defence correspondent of The Times recently made a useful comment when he said on operating costs that, given the figures for the F111 and the AFVG, the cost of the basic aircraft was about half the cost of keeping it operational for ten years. I am pleased to note that the Government are at last doing something which was not done by their predecessors and which is to pay increasing attention to the reliability and maintenance of the aircraft which they order.
    One of the examples is that to change (he engines of the TSR2 would have taken twelve times as long as to change the engines of the F111.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is it not one of the most depressing features of the F111 that the engines will need to be changed consistently? Is it not a thoroughly unreliable engine which has not yet been put into a condition which makes the aircraft safe to fly?
    Mr. Bishop: The fact that it can be changed much more easily is an added attraction. The hon. Member is falling for the view—if that is so, and I do not suggest that it is—that by the time we get this aircraft, some of the development and research snags will not have been ironed out. Basically, the F1 aircraft will be much more easily kept operational than would have been the TSR2, and that is most important.
    The Motion, which appears to be concerned about the Government's alleged inconsistency, is an impertinence. What is more inconsistent than that, having been in power for 13 years, the Conservative Party should have ordered no fewer than 26 aircraft which were later cancelled? What about the inconsistency of the Conservatives in committing us to great expenditure, with commitments running to hundreds of millions of £s a year, at a time when they realised that, because of the economic consequences, the country could not afford to pay for all that? The
    142
    only consistency of the Opposition in this matter has been their own inconsistency.
    5.44 p.m.
    Mr. Victor Goodhew: I was interested to hear the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Bishop) discussing the possibility of the TSR2 being too late as well as too expensive when the Prime Minister made it clear that this was not so. The Prime Minister said:
    "… the situation which we inherited last October was that the supersonic bomber which they finally put into the programme—the TSR2—could, at the earliest, not be in service until 1968".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1965; Vol. 707, c. 1557.]
    If that was the Prime Minister's estimate, it was no doubt intended to be pessimistic, but that would still be a year earlier than we can possibly have the F111. The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong.
    The Secretary of State's cynicism knows no bounds in that he has lectured us about upholding the morale of young airmen when he is the man who has put the future of the whole R.A.F. in jeopardy, when it was he who cancelled the TSR2 and then the HS681 and then the P1154, and then left long gaps before making any decision about their replacement. It is hard to imagine anything more cynical than that. During the course of his speech he made some remarks about the purchase of the F111 preserving and strengthening the British aircraft industry. How the right hon. Gentleman can cancel the TSR2 and the other two projects which I have mentioned and then talk of strengthening the aircraft industry by buying American equipment is beyond my comprehension.
    The purchase of the F111 was first mooted in a most unorthodox manner. It was mooted first in the course of a Budget statement and not in a defence debate. This surely should have been a warning to all concerned with the defence of the country's security and interests. The purchase of the F111 did not stem from a decision by the Chief of Air Staff, or by the Secretary of State for Defence, or by the Minister of Aviation of the time, but from a decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to persuade the Cabinet to cancel and destroy the TSR2 for purely political reasons. This is where it all started. The Chancellor wanted to show what was alleged to be a saving in defence expenditure, an

    143
    immediate saving, and he did it without thought to the final cost of any replacement and without thought of the devastating implications for the effectiveness of the Royal Air Force. If the Secretary of State had listened to his Service advisers of that time and if he had had the moral courage, he would have resigned in the face of such an irresponsible and catastrophic decision.
    The TSR2 was designed to meet the R.A.F.'s requirements. It had been proved in the course of development and it had not merely come up to, but had exceeded expectations. It was flying and it had cleared all the major hurdles in its development programme with unprecedented ease. The R.A.F. was convinced of its supremacy as an advanced tactical/strike and reconnaissance aircraft. A major part of the research and development expenditure had been met and there was no reason to suppose that the aircraft would not be in squadron service on time.
    The Secretary of State, the man whose prime duty is to see that the Services are equipped with weapons which will enable them to carry out the various tasks allotted to them, stood idly by while the TSR2 was not just cancelled but destroyed, and himself announced the option for the purchase of the F111 A. What a miserable and disgraceful history! It is no wonder that the right hon. Gentleman now finds it necessary to go travelling round the world trying in vain to convince the Services and our Allies that they should have confidence in him.
    I was interested to read an article in the Daily Telegraph today by Air Commodore Donaldson in which he said:
    "To most of the officers I have spoken to recently it seems that although there is great talk of a mammoth re-equipment programme the R.A.F's strength is in fact being whittled down month by month by the Labour Government without regard to the country's global commitments, or the part the R.A.F. is expected to play in safeguarding British interests abroad".
    I do not suppose that any hon. Member who has visited R.A.F. stations at home or abroad would dissent from that point of view. This is the experience of hon. Members on this side of the House and I have no doubt that the same things
    144
    would be said to hon. Members opposite if they called on the R.A.F.
    Mr. Lubbock: It has not been said to me.
    Mr. Goodhew: The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) dissents. He thinks that the R.A.F. are very happy with everything. I shall be very glad to learn from him in due course what they are so happy about.
    Even in his announcement about the F111A option—made, incidentally, in a Budget debate on 6th April, 1965—the Minister of Defence used language which was calculated to mislead the House and the country. As reported in column 331, he said,
    "The nature of the option on the F-111A is such that Her Majesty's Government have until the end of this year to decide whether to take it up. Any initial order would be a very small number for training purposes. It would not be necessary for Her Majesty's Government to place a follow-up order until as late as April, 1967."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 6th April, 1965; Vol. 710, c. 331.]
    Hon. Members should note that phrase—only a very small number required for training purposes initially. Should the House consider this so small, ten aircraft at £25 million? Having purchased those ten aircraft for at least £25 million, would it then have been possible not to place a follow-up order? Would there have been any point in buying ten aircraft for training purposes if we did not intend later to order more? All this is the type of verbiage used by the Secretary of State for Defence over and over again carefully calculated to mislead the House and to conceal the size of the likely commitment.
    This cunning concealment of the extent of the commitment has continued ever since the first announcement in April, 1965. Statements were made to the effect that the maximum price had been agreed when in fact it had not been agreed. We now know that in fact this is not a ceiling price because it has to take account of American escalation. We had a categorical statement that the order for the 40 F-111K's would not be placed until the supplemental maximum price had been agreed. We now know not only that this would not have been a true maximum supplemental price but also that the aircraft have been ordered without any such agreement.

    145
    Furthermore, the Minister has constantly compared the cost of the F-111 programme with the cost of the TSR2 programme. He excelled himself today. He introduced so much. He introduced the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft and insisted that the figures which he gave included the planned buy of Anglo-French V.G. aircraft. But when I inquired a week or so ago how many we planned to buy, he asked how he could possibly answer that when he did not know what the aeroplane would be and how much it would cost. Yet today he told us that this aircraft is included in some of the figures which he gave. He talked about V-bombers, Buccaneers and all sorts of things which we have not normally considered to be part of this alternative purchase, which is what we are trying to get at. It was clear that he believes that if he gets enough balls into the air, juggling happily, no one will see what he is up to. I am certain that the figures which he has given today, the global sums, all along the line were not calculated to enable us to see what was behind it all but were calculated to mislead us, just as we have been mislead by practically everything else which has been said about this programme in the past.
    We shall not know for a long time what is the cost of this change from the TSR2 to the alternative, but no doubt in time we shall learn, and I suspect that we shall find that it was a very extravagant change. We do not even know whether we are to have the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft. We do not even know what its specifications will be if we have it, and we do not even know what its cost is likely to be. How on earth the right hon. Gentleman can seriously suggest that the figures given as global sums by him can mean anything, I do not know.
    He has persistently and deliberately sought to mislead the House and the country on the whole question of costs, and I am sure that he has done so because even he is beginning to realise just what he has done. He is beginning to realise that the Government have made a most catastrophic error in cancelling the TSR2 and having it destroyed, together with the jigs and tools, so that he has placed himself in a position in which no business man would ever place himself—that of having to accept what the Americans offer him. He is now
    146
    terrified of the financial implications as well as of the operational implications.
    What are the operational implications of this change? Here, again, the Minister has done his best to conceal the facts. On 13th December, 1965, as reported in c. 915 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, he said,
    "This does not involve any substantial down-grading of the TSR2's performance, though I must make it clear that in many respects the F111A is superior to the TSR2, particularly in radius of action and flexibility."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December 1965; Vol. 722, c. 915.]
    Why did he not tell us how insubstantial was the down grading of the TSR2 performance? Why did he not tell us in which field the F111 is inferior to the TSR2? He has not told us even today. On 16th November, 1966, as reported in c. 423 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, he said,
    "In all respects the performance of the F111K is superior to the requirement for the TSR2."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November 1966; Vol. 735, c. 423.]
    This, again, is juggling with words—to compare performance with requirements. He should have been comparing the performance of the F111 with the performance or likely performance of the TSR2. When I tackled him on this point today, he brushed it aside by saying that he could not tell us what the performance of the TSR2 would have been. But he could have told us what it had already achieved in a very successful development and what it could possibly have reached or should have reached in the full time of its development.
    This can mean only one thing—that in practice the performance of the TSR2 was superior to the requirements. If this had not been so, the Minister would have told us that the performance of the F111 was superior to the performance of the TSR2. In fact he was careful not to say that. I suspect that it means that the F111 is in fact inferior to the TSR2 in performance, even if there is not a substantial difference. What a juggling of words to conceal the facts.
    As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) pointed out, we had a higher standard of honesty from the other place when we were told by the Minister without Portfolio on 6th April that
    "we have had definite assurances"—

    147
    for whatever these may be worth—
    "that the aircraft will meet the R.A.F.'s minimum requirements".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 6th April, 1967; Vol. 281, c. 1072.]
    This can mean only that there has been a downgrading and that the R.A.F. are being passed off with second-best. I suspect that, having been duped into accepting the cancellation of the TSR2 in the belief that they were to get 110 F111s—that was the basis on which the R.A.F. said goodbye to the TSR2—the R.A.F. now have to accept 50 F111s in the expectation that these will be supplemented by 150 of the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft, which will bring the bomb load up to about the same. The R.A.F. now find themselves clinging in desperation to the 50 F111s which they hope to get, for if that goes by the board, there is no Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft in existence.
    It seems to me that at the moment they are bound to say that it is a splendid aircraft. It is inevitable that the Minister will come to the House and say that senior R.A.F. officers have flown it and think it superb. If I were in the R.A.F., having had the TSR2 taken away and knowing how badly I needed some aircraft to carry out my task, I would grab at anything which was going. It is astonishing that while this is said in the House about that aircraft, the Americans, who are producing it for their own Air Force, do not appear to agree that it is as well nigh perfect as it is supposed to be.
    There is also the important point that the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft is not yet an aircraft on paper let alone in metal, and yet the Government talk about this aeroplane and even advertise it in the newspapers as an attraction for young men wishing to enter the R.A.F. as if it were an aircraft that they were bound to be able to fly in the 'seventies.
    Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: Disgraceful.
    Mr. Goodhew: There is no guarantee that it will ever be built. It seems to me, therefore, that it is no wonder that there should be such concern in the Royal Air Force. The Minister—[Interruption.]—I do not know whether the hon. Member
    148
    for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) wishes to intervene.
    Mr. Roy Roebuck: I was remarking—I hoped that it could not be heard—that the hon. Gentleman had got so used to his own side cancelling aircraft that he expected any aircraft to be cancelled whatever it was.
    Mr. Goodhew: I do not think that that contributes much to the debate. I am sorry that I even bothered to disturb the hon. Member from his very reclining position.
    When I referred to the feelings of the Royal Air Force during the debate on the Air Estimates the Minister scoffed at me and giggled and guffawed, which seems to be his normal method of overcoming or trying to conceal his anxiety and discomfort and avoid admitting the position. I believe that the Minister, for all his long performance today, for all the facts and figures—which I think were put out not to clarify the position but to make it even more difficult to determine it—has failed the Services that he supports, and the sooner he resigns the better.
    6.1 p.m.
    Mr. Maurice Edelman: I was sorry that the hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) referred to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence in such an intemperate and unconstructive way. What should be common ground on both sides in this debate is that we all want to see the Royal Air Force equipped with the very best aircraft and the British aircraft industry flourishing to the extent that it can.
    Having said that about the hon. Gentleman, I must say that I was sorry when my right hon. Friend, at the end of his extremely interesting speech, referred to the critics of the F111—to some critics at any rate—as being actuated by malice or commercial interest. I say straight away that my only interest in the matter is the defence of the country and the concerns of my own constituents who are to some extent involved in the matter. I hope, therefore, that in the criticisms I propose to offer my right hon. Friend will not find any occasion for assuming that I am motivated by malice, of which I have none, or by any other interest than those that I have mentioned.

    149
    It is obvious that the debate is haunted by the ghost of the TSR2, an aircraft which was buried but which is certainly not dead. It was ploughed into the ground, its jigs and tools were smashed, the prototypes were pulverised—all, I assume, in the interests of security, in order to avoid any possible enemy from getting access to the basic materials and prototypes of the aircraft.
    Mr. Burden: The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point. If it was necessary to carry out such destruction of everything connected with the TSR2 because of the danger of its getting into other hands, does it not imply that it was really a wonderful aircraft?
    Mr. Edelman: I assume that the intention of smashing up the aircraft and all that surrounded it was in the interests of security. I think there is little doubt about the quality of the aircraft, but I shall refer to that in a moment if the hon. Gentleman will be patient.
    In the context of that time, not only was the aircraft broken but the present Home Secretary, who was then the Minister of Aviation, scared the wits out of the country by saying that the cost would be £10 million per aircraft. In reply to that I would say—my right hon. Friend used the same sort of argument today—that if it cost £2,000 to develop a watch the first watch off the production line costs £2,000.
    I feel that in the case of the TSR2 what should have been looked into was the reason for the escalation of the development costs in the first instance. I speak with some hind-sight, of course, because I have in mind the rising costs which were shown in the course of the Ferrantiscandal and the Bristol-Siddeley affair. That illustrates—I say it without any partisan spirit—that what should have been looked into at the time was not simply the project as a whole, but the reason for the escalation of costs in development and ultimately as it proceeded towards production.
    Attention was drawn in the first instance, I believe, to the dramatic rise in costs—which was referred to by my right hon. Friend, and which hon. Gentlemen opposite will certainly not dispute—by the Estimates Committee. What is certain is that, in my judgment, there was no
    150
    real basis for such extraordinary escalation of development costs. The criticism which it will be within the memory of some hon. Gentlemen that I offered towards the Minister of Aviation in 1964–65 was precisely that, instead of slashing the project, he should have slashed the costs. He should have gone into the factories and seen exactly why the aircraft costs were rising. Like other hon. Members on these benches, I saw the prototype in production. It was a prototype that was literally being made by hand. The best that one could have hoped would have been that it would have been a protoype manufactured by batch production.
    I am sure that any hon. Gentleman who has had any direct concern with the aircraft industry—I have had such—will question very seriously why the costs of the TSR2 rose to the phenomenal height to which they did. The Minister of Aviation in 1964 and 1965 sheltered, I believe, behind the Plowden Committee when he was asked to investigate the reason for the extraordinary rise in costs. The Plowden Committee was a farcical body which never even visited the factories on which it had to report. There was never any physical inspection by any member of the Plowden Committee, unless one excepts the factories of Shorts in Northern Ireland. So although it had eventually to report on the efficiency of the aircraft industry, it did not have the opportunity, the occasion or the experience of seeing how aircraft are manufactured. But even on the basis——
    Mr. Hastings: It is an interesting point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but is he aware that the Committee visited several American aircraft factories?
    Mr. Edelman: I think that that is a tribute to its enterprise, though not to its wisdom, in this matter. It was clearly in the Committee's terms of reference to examine the British aircraft industry, and that is where it should have begun.
    I am convinced that had the matter been taken in hand under the direction of the Minister of Aviation at the time ways and means could have been found of producing the TSR2 much more efficiently and much more cheaply.
    The conclusion to which the Plowden Committee came, that the British aircraft industry was less efficient—I use the

    151
    word in its technical sense—than the American or the French aircraft industry is a pointer to what could have been achieved if there had been an investigation of the rising costs of the TSR2.
    I would say in parenthesis, in case the term "efficient" is misinterpreted, that I have always believed that in terms of quality, experience and skill and ability the technicians and workers in our industry are the equals at least of any in the world. I say this not to flatter my constituents; I believe it to be true, and our tradition and experience have proved it to be so.
    The position is that today we are dependent—how dependent I shall try to indicate in a few moments—on an American aircraft which is expensive in its dollar costs, which is unproven and which is still being questioned by a United States Congressional Committee—and that is sustained not only by politicians but by expert aviation opinion as well.
    So we have lost, in effect, that which we might have obtained in our own factories from the technological studies of the potentialities of TSR2. We have thrown this away and we are now obliged to expend dollars. At the moment we have long-term credit from the United States, but settling day will have to come. We have to pay those dollars, and we have forfeited the opportunity of having an aircraft built with the self-reliance and skill of our own technicians.
    I have referred to the United States Congressional Committee. Perhaps I may quote Senator McClellan, Chairman of the Committee, who described the F111 as a political aircraft. It is perfectly true that in the United States there are many commercial interests which are attacking the aircraft, no doubt with the disgruntlement of disappointed competitors. I have no doubt that this is an element which has entered into the debate. Nevertheless, the fact is that those who have promoted the F111 in the United States have been members of the lobby which was promoting, and still is promoting, the sale of the F111 in Great Britain. If one wanted to look for an aircraft lobby one would not have to look very far. One need only look
    152
    to those permanent representatives of the United States aircraft lobby who are in this country and who have been plugging the sale of the F111.
    When the decision was taken to buy the initial 10, with the option for a further 40, we all ought to bear in mind that the whole question of the F111 was a matter of bitter debate between Mr. McNamara, the United States Secretary of State for Defence, and the McClellan Committee. The criticism was directed to the merits, and the particulars and performance of the aircraft. I must confess that I find it rather curious that when my right hon. Friend has to answer criticism of the aircraft his ultimate source of authority to which he refers is always the United States Secretary of Defence. It is precisely because of this that the debate is going on. Criticisms have been made in open sessions and they were summed up recently by the extremely well informed correspondent of the Economist, who said of the F111:
    "Its weakness throughout has lain in the engines which stalled, or simply blew out like candles, with embarrassing and unexpected regularity."
    I hasten to say that I quote this, not as my right hon. Friend suggested, in order to cause alarm and despondency among those who have to fly the aircraft. I would have thought that it is much better to offer such criticism before they fly them, rather than to allow them to fly the aircraft, only to find that their engines have stalled, with embarrassing and unexpected regularity.
    As my right hon. Friend is very properly concerned with the saving of lives, he will surely welcome these criticisms, which are designed for the protection of those who may have to fly the aircraft. The original engine installed in the F111 has been described as one of the worst, if not the worst, that Pratt and Witney have ever built. That is the aircraft and the engine for which the former Minister of Aviation and the present Minister of Defence discarded the TSR2. That is the measure of the error that we have made. It is proper to recognise the nature of the error and to see what lessons can be drawn from it.
    On 12th April, I asked the Minister of Defence whether he would have done better, before taking up the option for

    153
    the further 40 aircraft to have awaited the outcome of the McClellan Committee. My right hon. Friend replied:
    "No. Sir … The main subject of criticism of the McClellan, inquiry is the suitability of the F111B, which we are not buying, for the U.S. Navy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1967; Vol. 744, c. 1181.]
    On the very next day. Senator McClellan said in the Senate:
    "It is difficult to understand how the Defence Department could justify the production, for combat use, of a plane which is still unacceptable."
    He was talking of the Air Force version of the F111, which Britain is buying. Therefore I repeat that the whole question of the aircraft is still in doubt, still under inquiry in the United States. Yet my right hon. Friend has persevered with the purchase of these very dubious aircraft.
    I can only assume that my right hon. Friend has not read the massive, highly publicised reports of the United States Committee. I have read it in some detail, and I can assure him that the criticisms of the Committee have not been directed simply towards the naval version, which it has been established already is above weight. It weighs far too much for its intended purpose. The whole tenor of those criticisms has been directed to the aircraft and its performance as such. It is important to state that before some sort of myth is established that the only criticism of the Congressional Committee has been directed towards the naval version. That is not so. Criticism has been directed towards the basic aircraft, which we are proposing to buy.
    My right hon. Friend is in a series of dilemmas. If the Government needs their east of Suez commitments they will obviously need strike reconnaissance aircraft. That is the assumption, I imagine, on which this debate is taking place. The 50 F111s. will make four squadrons, plus an operational conversion unit, and it is assumed that two of these squadrons would be stationed east of Suez. But if these aircraft fall short in their range and speed, will they be any more than expensive showpieces? My right hon. Friend was talking in somewhat confusing terms about the quality of the performance. One thing is quite obvious, that when he talks about the potential range of the aircraft, it has to be related in some way to the load which it will carry. It is an absurdity for anyone to
    154
    talk about range without any relevance to the load carried. Therefore, these comparisons, interesting though they may sound, are capable, at any rate, of masking the real truth of the matter.
    It seems certain that the F111 will fall short of the original requirements and specifications. My right hon. Friend has indicated that the plane will exceed the R.A.F.'s minimum requirements. That word "minimum" is very interesting. It reminds me of the old farmer who during discussion on the payment of minimum wages to farm labourers was asked if he paid the minimum. He replied, "I always pay it." It seems that the word "minimum" is a word begging description. We have to assure ourselves that the performance of the aircraft will have some correlation with the original specifications.
    I want to deal with a most important point. We have looked back at the TSR2, but I want to look forward to the AFVG, because unless we clear our minds of the situation about this we shall not be able to see that my right hon. Friend is potentially hooked on the F111, and the 50 that have been bought will not be the end of the story.
    I assure the House that while my right hon. Friend has made a good case for containing the fixed price within reasonable limits, we can be quite certain that if we have to go back to the U.S. and make further purchases of F111s the price will not be £2½ million. It probably will not be £3 million, but substantially in excess of that. I welcome most enthusiastically Anglo-French co-operation in the air. I hope that I will not betray a private communication when I say that when my right hon. Friend concluded his agreement with M. Messmer I sent him a telegram of congratulation. But I believe that I was somewhat premature, because difficulties have arisen which deserve a very brief analysis.
    The basic fact is that there is as yet no agreed specification for the aircraft. What we want is a strike reconnaissance aircraft—and I do not dissent from the value which my right hon. Friend attaches to the rôle of reconnaissance in keeping the peace. The French want an interceptor which will be much faster than the aircraft which we envisage and which, accordingly, will be more costly. The main reason why there has been this

    155
    escalation of development costs is the two different rôles which the two sides of Anglo French co-operation have been trying to promote. What is emerging seems to be a hybrid, and I am not sure whether it will be the sort of aircraft which we want.
    The decision to proceed has been delayed until 1st January, 1969. This coming year will be what some Frenchmen have been calling the social year of France in which President de Gaulle, having seen the value at the last election which Frenchmen attach to economic and social reform, will spend a large proportion of the budget on social and economic progress and development. If the French do that, I can declare quite categorically that they will be in a position in which, apart from any other consideration, they have to make a choice between the airbus and the AFVG.
    They are not happy about the AFVG. It is very likely that, having proposed to spend up to £250 million on development costs between our two countries, the time will come when the French decide that they cannot proceed with the AFVG. What will then be the situation? What does that leave my right hon. Friend with—at best, the prospect of 50 United States aircraft already described as doubtful in performance and uncertain in their rôle. This is a very high price to pay for Anglo-French co-operation in a situation from which the French may readily withdraw.
    I do not think that we should make snap decisions. We must recognise that we are faced by a major difficulty and that what is probably necessary above all is for the Government to make the basic decision for recasting the whole of the aircraft industry in order to make a reorientation if these schemes fall through. Failing that, we shall find ourselves hooked on the F111. So far from there being an expansion in Anglo-French cooperation unfolding before us, we shall see ourselves constrained and limited and orientated towards the United States. That would be an ill day for this country.
    6.23 p.m.
    Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman). He has
    156
    always been consistent in his speeches in the House on this great industry. He has shown much courage in what he has written. I only wish that the Secretary of State had been present to hear his speech. Soon after he made his speech, the right hon. Gentleman left the Chamber and we have not seen him since. This is treating the House with great discourtesy. The right hon. Gentleman, in his speeches, is always ready to take it out of other people, but he does not like people taking it out of him. He can dish it out, but he cannot take it. The House will not tolerate this sort of arrogance from a Minister.
    The right hon. Gentleman complained about the questions asked of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). In a speech of nearly an hour, he hardly answered any of my right hon. Friend's questions. My right hon. Friend showed great restraint in the way in which he put his questions.
    May I refer to what the hon. Member for Coventry, North said about costs. I am sure that he put his finger on the point. For years, the contracts branch—I do not say this against the individuals of the various Ministries—is just not up to those in industry. There are not enough of them. They are not clever enough, and they do not know their way round. I have implored the Ministers in successive Governments to bring in outside cost accountants who might be a match for some of those in the industry who try to take the taxpayers for a ride in getting excess profits. I am sure that if something like this had been done with the TSR2, much would have been saved.
    The first quarter of an hour of the Secretary of State's speech was directed to members of his Left Wing, very few of whom are here. His peroration also was directed to them. I suppose that, in anticipation of the time when they read HANSARD, he said all the nice things to keep them quiet about British commitments in the Far East, which he hardly touched on at all as far as this aircraft is concerned. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) wishes to intervene, I will give way, but I ask him not to whisper.
    Mr. Thomas Swain: I suggested that the hon. Gentleman might be leaving school at the end of this term.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: I do not follow the hon. Gentleman. He has been here for little of the debate. If he had heard what we heard, he would not feel very pleased about it.
    The Secretary of State talked about the economy and gave figures for the aircraft industry up to 1980. Very few of us will be in the House when we reach that year. The Government had a National Plan which they blazed on the television and in the Press. Within 18 months it was in the wastepaper basket. A Government which cannot get out a National Plan which lasts for more than 18 months and which talks about what will happen in 1980 to aircraft not yet designed is asking a lot of the House and the taxpayer. The Government said at the election that they would not increase taxation. Now they are trying to tell us what an aircraft will cost in 1980.
    It is wrong for the Minister to talk about the Anglo-French variable geometry aircaft as being an aircraft which is coming along. It is not coming along. The two sides are diametrically opposed in their requirements. The right hon. Gentleman talked about development costs of £300 million for the two countries. He cannot estimate what the cost will be ten years hence. It is very wrong of the right hon. Gentleman to bring this aircraft into the argument.
    If the Secretary of State wants to bring it into the argument, I should like to quote some figures which appeared in Flight International on 6th April this year. On the left hand side there is shown:
    "Total cost of TSR2. 130 delivered to R.A.F. Government estimate—£690 million."
    On the right hand side is shown the cost of the alternative:
    "Total spent on TSR2 at date of cancellation—£195 million. Contractors' compensation—£70 million. Total cost of F111K, 50 delivered to R.A.F. (dollar currency)—£138 million. Cost of at least 100 AFVGs to achieve with 50 F111Ks. the same air power (nearly ten years later) as 130 TSR2s—£287 million."
    The total cost of the items on the right hand side is £690 million, and the cost of the TSR2 on the left hand side is, strangely enough, £690 million. This does
    158
    not take into account escalation in the United States. It does not take into account the possibility—and it could happen if we go into Europe—of devaluation of the £. Where would we stand with the Americans, with such a big order, if we were to devalue by 25 or 30 per cent.? Not one Member would want to pay that price to get into Europe.
    Therefore, I do not think that the figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave today are very relevant. I only wish that he had told us, when talking about the TSR2, what Wing Commander Beamont said to myself and a number of other people. He was the test pilot of the TSR2. He said that in the flying which he did in this aircraft—he did practically all of it—it gave less trouble in tests than the Canberra ten or 15 years ago. In fact, he said that the aircraft gave no trouble at all; it was magnificent. It flew supersonic and had tremendous performance and did all that the Chiefs of Staff required of it.
    The right hon. Gentleman went out of his way deliberately to denigate the British effort. It was bad enough that the Home Secretary, when Minister of Aviation, should have a steamroller go over the jigs and tools. The hon. Member for Coventry, North was generous enough to say that he thought that that was for secrecy purposes. That is a bit far-fetched. They could have been stored in a hangar and sealed and nobody would have known any different. I know why the Government destroyed the jigs and tools. At that time they had a majority of three. They wondered what might have happened if the Tories had reversed that decision. It seems an extraordinary thing to do when an aircraft is in doubt to destroy the jigs and tools. It was an unforgivable act on the part of the Labour Government. It has never been explained.
    The order for 50 F111Ks is not the end of the road. If the Anglo-French aircraft is not built, 50 aircraft will not suffice. There are bound to be accidents. Every new type which comes into service either lands with its undercarriage up or overshoots or undershoots. They are not always fatal accidents, but aircraft will be written off. With our forces divided between Europe and other theatres, there will not be enough aircraft and more F111Ks must be ordered from the United States.

    159
    Some of us have had dealings with the United States aircraft industry. I competed with it in the firm for which I used to work for a number of years. While the American Government may take one view of what they say and what are their intentions, the view of the aircraft industry in the United States is quite another thing. It is a well-known fact that in Australia and New Zealand, where B.A.C. has been trying to sell B.A.C. 1–11s, the Americans have been there saying that it is no good their buying a British aircraft because in four or five years' time there will not be an industry in Britain to supply them with spares.
    That is the sort of competition which is going on in the Middle East and in the Far East. It is public knowledge that the American aircraft industry is out to destroy the aircraft industry, not only of Britain, but of Western Europe. The American aircraft industry does not want an aircraft industry or an electronics industry in Western Europe. It wants it all for itself. I have had personal experience of all this.
    The fact is that if we go into Europe, we stand a better chance on that score by getting together with our friends in Europe. The Labour Government, however, did not start off very well. The first thing they did when they came into power two years ago was to send a Minister to Paris to try to cancel the Concord. They then found that they could not do it. Had they done it or tried to do it, General de Gaulle would have gone to the International Court at The Hague and there would have been large damages to pay. So the Government have got the Concord, and I am pleased that they have. It is a venture which, even with the American supersonic aircraft now in train, is likely to pay off as a complementary type.
    When the Home Secretary was Minister of Aviation, he said that we might pay less but that we could not pay more for these aeroplanes. I found that very difficult to follow. Then, on 13th December, 1965, the Secretary of State said that there was a guaranteed full delivery date not later than January, 1970, that the ceiling price would be about £2·1 million and that there would be credit terms up to 1977.
    If I understood correctly, the Minister this afternoon said that we are now to pay
    160
    rather more in the first 10 years. Can we be told in the winding-up speech tonight how much we are to pay in the first 10 years? Let the public and hon. Members below the Gangway opposite realise that the cost of these aircraft is not included in the present Estimates. We are getting them "on tick" from America. This is a legacy with which the next Conservative Government will have to deal. The present Government will not have to pay the bill because they will be out of office years before that happens. It is for these vast sums that we are pledging the taxpayers' credit.
    What worries me is that with the Phantoms and the C130s, the total cost at the moment, without spares, is about £660 million, and in dollars. We never hear it mentioned by the Government that we are parting with foreign exchange. Even if the TSR2 had cost a bit more, at least we would have kept our men employed in this important industry. We would have prevented them leaving this country to go to North America and elsewhere to work and we would have saved foreign exchange, which would have meant a great deal to this country.
    The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in the House of Lords, has been far franker than anybody on the Government Front Bench in this House. He revealed that the ceiling price had not been agreed although the contract had been signed. He said that a figure of about 2½ million per aircraft was still valid.
    I would like to be told whether the Government have taken the advice of the Australian Government, who placed an order quite a long time ago for these aircraft, and what their terms were. Do the Australians have an escalation clause? Had the Labour Party when in opposition not gone out of their way to denigrate the TSR2, as they did publicly, Britain might have landed an order in Australia for TSR2s.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: Rubbish.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Member sits there muttering to himself. Does he wish to intervene? I wish that he had the courage to stand up and say what he wanted to say. He was not in the House at that time. If he looks up the newspapers, he will find that the Labour Party said everything they could against the TSR2. When the Australian mission

    161
    came to London, it went on to America and placed an order there.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: As the Minister who tried to sell the TSR2 to the Australians and who was there three weeks, I confirm what my hon. Friend has said. It was said by every Australian Minister that the Labour Party might win the next election and that they were against the TSR2.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: I hope that the hon. Member for Feltam (Mr. Russell Kerr) is now satisfied. If he is not satisfied with that, nothing will satisfy him. That was the fact.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West referred this afternoon to the Polaris submarines. Mr. Thorneycroft, when Minister of Defence, said that the cost, including all weapons, would be about £70 million each. On 24th February this year, the Minister of State, Board of Trade, said in reply to a Question that the original cost and the present cost were £50 million and £52 million, respectively. Can we be told a little more about the Polaris figures? It is important to know what the escalation has been since that order was placed.
    I am all for having the F111Ks, because if we do not have them we will not have anything. I want the Royal Air Force to be strong, but it will not be strong in the right way, because I do not think that the numbers of these aircraft are nearly sufficient. Further aircraft will have to be ordered.
    When the Secretary of State for Defence referred today to the additional 500 miles range of the F111K, he did not refer to the load of the aircraft. It is important to know what the load was. Was the aircraft flying in a reconnaissance rôle or was it carrying high-explosive bombs?
    The right hon. Gentleman was particularly coy about the nuclear rôle of the F111K. He knows perfectly well that this aircraft has a nuclear rôle, although nobody hopes that it will be used. It has a dual rôle with high-explosive weapons also. The right hon. Gentleman must be completely honest with the House about this so that we know what the aircraft can do and what its rôle will be.
    I would like also to be told in the winding-up speech how long the Canberras
    162
    have to last. These aircraft are now nearly 20 years old and many of them have given trouble in maintenance in the squadrons in the Far East. We are entitled to know, and the aircrews are entitled to know, when the Canberra will be phased out completely.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: They are very popular in Vietnam.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: My hon. Friend says that they are very popular in Vietnam. He means when they are being flown by the Australians. They are still doing a good job. Nevertheless, I do not want to see military aircraft approaching 25 years of age in our Air Force.
    The morale in the Air Force is particularly high. I do not think that the Service has ever been in better shape. It is under good leadership. I can, however, see a steady rundown in that great Service by integration of commands and undoubtedly, when forces are brought home from other countries, there will be a surplus of personnel.
    Mr. Robert Howarth: Does not the hon. Member realise that that last statement of his rather contradicts what was said by one of his hon. Friends a little earlier? The hon. Member has just said that the morale of the Royal Air Force is particularly high. Not long before, his hon. Friend told us that it was particularly low. I wonder who is right?
    Sir A. V. Harvey: My hon. Friend said nothing of the kind. What he said was that when he talked to the personnel they were anxious about the future. The answer is that people in the Royal Air Force are a very intelligent lot. They can see ahead and see what the form will be. They are apprehensive. Their morale is good, but they want backing up. I hope that we shall be told more about the future of the Royal Air Force.
    In connection with the F111K, we should be told what is the rôle of that aircraft in the Far East. Will there be a rôle for it? The Secretary of State merely touched upon it today when he said that it might go to various theatres very quickly in the event of an emergency. However, it is well known that we had V-bombers out in Singapore during the confrontation with Indonesia, although

    163
    we did not hear whether they had nuclear weapons available.
    We must know how these 50 aircraft are to be used, because I do not think there are enough to split them up between Europe, the Middle East and possibly the Far East. The Secretary of State cannot go on giving driblets of information. He has been less than frank on every occasion, and this afternoon he was even less frank than usual.
    6.40 p.m.
    Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The last two speakers have given us very well-informed and persuasive defences of the TSR2, and that fact gives me the opportunity of beginning my own speech by defending the Secretary of State on this point. The case which he makes as between the F111 and the TSR2 is overwhelmingly strong, and today he put forward a most convincing case. I have always thought that the TSR2 was a good plane but that the smallness of the market made it far too expensive a proposition. Accordingly, one had to have a long-range reconnaissance plan to go before the F111.
    On the benches opposite there has been a tendency to deal in too great and finnicky detail with matters long past and to ignore the very much more important issues which my right hon. Friend's statement raised. I feel that particularly about the Opposition Front Bench, because whenever right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite speak in debates on defence, constantly one asks oneself what is their policy, what would they do? We do not even know whether it is Official Opposition policy to buy the F111, the TSR2, or neither, and what commitments they think that these planes should carry out.
    I want, if I may, to deal instead with what I believe to be the much more urgent and important part of what my right hon. Friend said today, which was about the rôle of the F111. What is the point of arguing about different types of long-range strike reconnaissance planes if we are not sure whether we shall need a strike reconnaissance, for what purpose, for how many years and in what parts of the world? I am sorry that the Opposition have not addressed themselves to that more, because that is what matters.
    164
    When I think back on this afternoon, the most significant point which my right hon. Friend made was when I asked him whether the Prime Minister's statement last June about our continuing commitments in Asia throughout the 1970s still represents Government policy. He did not answer in a direct way at all, and it is plain from that, from other hints and other information which I have received—from some well-informed quarters I have even received congratulations on the ground of having contributed something to the sanity of our defence policy—I have come to the conclusion that the Prime Minister's statement about our world rôle in the 1970s no longer represents Government policy. It was a clear and bold statement, but events have shown it to have been mistaken. Very wisely, it has now been abandoned.
    It is plain from my right hon. Friend's statement today that the question now is how early in the 1970s are we proposing to withdraw from our commitments in Singapore, Malaysia and the Gulf. That is the only uncertainty left about Government policy—that and precisely what commitments we shall have to cover when those are withdrawn.
    I should like, if I may, to ask this question, with special reference to our need for the F111 aircraft. I beg the Government as soon as possible to make clear where we stand on this issue. It is not fair to our allies, to our Service men or to the aircraft industry to continue the obscurity on the vital question of what our commitments will be in the 1970s.
    Plainly, if the major statement of our overseas policy which the Prime Minister made last year still represented Government policy, there would be an inescapable need not only for the F111 aircraft but for more than 50 of them. If that statement still represents Government policy, in addition to a larger number of F111s, there is a continuing need for powerful maritime air power. There is no question that under the circumstances which the Prime Minister outlined we would need that, too. If his statement still stands, we need more troops in the Far East today, instead of the Secretary of State going to the Far East and bringing back thousands and thousands of troops. If it were true that his job was, as the Prime Minister stated, to prevent the

    165
    eyeball to eyeball confrontation of the United States and China in Asia, the Secretary of State should have gone to Asia to reinforce the troops there and not take them out.
    It is as well that the Government have thought again about the major rôle in the 1970s. If we are to stay there, as the Prime Minister outlined, the defence structure is inadequate and inappropriate. The Ministry of Defence planners are very able people, who are not responsible for the high level planning on which our policy is founded. Suppose they were given the task of assuming that we have to maintain this world peace-keeping rôle in the 1970s and we were asked to devise the most expensive and inappropriate defence structure to carry it out. How would they begin? They would begin by buying a highly sophisticated, extremely expensive long-range bomber with a nuclear capacity. They would buy it from the United States, and they would keep it as far from any area of peace-keeping as possible so that it was totally invisible and unrealised until it was used.
    Their second step would be to phase out the carriers, which have proved to be the most cost-efficient peace-keeping system which we have had. Finally, they would bring back our troops and station them in Hampshire and Wiltshire. That is how the M.O.D. would go about it if asked to create the most expensive and inappropriate structure. That is what we have now, and that is the defence policy of Her Majesty's Government. Given the assumptions of the Prime Minister's statement last year, this defence structure is pure lunacy. Fortunately, there is no reason to suppose that the assumptions laid down by the Prime Minister last year still stand. Certainly they make no sense at all. I cannot believe that my right hon. Friend would keep all those commitments and then weaken our forces, simply trusting to luck that nothing unpleasant happens. I cannot believe that that is seriously the intention for the 1970s.
    Today, my right hon. Friend indicated a different attitude towards our commitments. He said that we would go, but not within two years. He was sure that no one would think that we should go within two years, and I cordially endorse that. He hinted about a fall-back posi-
    166
    tion in Australia. He referred to me at that point, and I regret that he did not allow me to intervene to ask him a little more about what he had in mind. It was clear from what he said, however, that the Government are no longer committed to this Asian rôle throughout the 1970s. They are not prepared to say when we are going, but it is plain that we are going some time in the early 1970s.
    Thus, I come to the point that we are buying these F111s and we shall buy, apparently, the AFVGs not to maintain our east of Suez rôle throughout the 1970s, but simply to maintain the option of staying there if things work out that way. It is worthwhile making this distinction. It may be that the Government now accept that we shall be clear of these commitments in the early 1970s, but, because they have refused to take a firm decision there, they are now forced to go on buying the F111, the AFVGs and a whole lot of other defence equipment which I will enumerate because they might not leave in the early 1970s and might go through to the late 1970s.
    Thus, though it would seem churlish to criticise the move of the Government away from a firm commitment to remain east of Suez throughout the 1970s and into their new position of going earlier, but not saying when, one must accept the terrible defect in that policy in that it does not enable one to make any effective defence economies, so that one must go on spending as though one were staying in the area indefinitely. This means that, following this policy, one must continue to buy a long-range reconnaissance plane and many other things, and it is worth considering those other things. Unless we know that we shall be clear of these commitments by the early 1970s, we must buy the F111, the AFVG, 164 Phantoms and build naval vessels now on the assumption of having an escort fleet in the 1970s. All these things must result from this commitment.
    On the other hand, if the Government had the courage to say plainly that they will be out by the early 1970s, then automatically such an escort fleet becomes too big—it could be cut by a substantial number without danger—and many other economies would follow—if only the Government would say, "We are going by the early 'seventies" instead of "We

    167
    are perhaps going by the early seventies". Despite this, scores of millions of £s could be saved. For example, the "Leander" frigates being built for the Royal Navy——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must link his speech to the Motion.
    Mr. Mayhew: I was tempted away from the F111 buy, which is the subject of this debate, into giving other instances of the same economic principles which should oblige the Government to firm-up on their new attitude towards commitments.
    It has been suggested that the naming of a date is irrelevant. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) asked for an assurance, in connection with the purchase of the F111, that my right hon. Friend would never name a set date for withdrawing from this commitment. I suggest that we must distinguish between two things; between setting a date which is too early—as was perhaps done in the case of Aden and, to begin with, in respect of Malta—and not setting any date at all. We all agree on the first, but does the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West really mean that it is always wrong to set a term to our commitments, even though the date announced may be some years ahead?
    If so, I warn him that if we are not prepared to do that, then he must be prepared to work out the economic and planning consequences. If a date is not set, we will find that we are unable, for example, to plan a withdrawal to avoid unemployment. We would find ourselves in the position of having bought more F111s than it would be possible to use. And when the time came to leave—which would not be a time we had chosen but an arbitrary time laid down by circumstances or a political change; it would be a time which would be the least convenient to us—it would probably be a time most humiliating to ourselves. I would like to go into this matter in detail, but I would not be in order in doing so.
    I am sure that, while we should welcome the indication that we will not maintain this rôle through the 'seventies, if our policy is to make sense for defence and political planning, and if we are to make economies and get the right air-
    168
    craft to buy, we must make it clear that we will be out of this commitment by the early 'seventies. This would enable economies to be made in our aircraft buy, and also in other parts of our defence budget.
    My right hon. Friend said that we needed the F111 because we might have a fall-back position in Australia. I gathered him to indicate that we may be clear of Singapore and Malaysia and may wish to fall back to Australia. I gathered that my right hon. Friend was saying to myself that I was in favour of a presence in Australia and therefore I would want the F111s. I suggest that everything depends on what sort of presence my right hon. Friend has in mind in these conditions. The House and the country would be extremely interested to know more about his thinking on this issue.
    I believe that if we are clear of Singapore, Malaysia and the Gulf by the early 'seventies, we will still need some sort of presence in Australia. We would still need to perform three functions. First, a small presence there—perhaps £30 million to £40 million defence cost would be involved—would reinforce the capability there in the unlikely event of the territory of Australia or New Zealand being attacked. In such circumstances the British people would want to make a contribution to the defence of those countries. The second function would be to make a possible contribution to any United Nations peace-keeping force that might be there. The third function would be to look after the internal security of our remaining colonial possessions.
    Whether one needs the F111 for such functions is a question to be decided. Whether one needs, in addition to the F111s, some other capability—for example, if the Australians had the F111 function and we produced the naval element or could deal with our part of the commitment with fewer planes of this type—is also a matter to be considered. But if one got into this posture of withdrawing and falling back to have a residual presence in Australia, one would certainly not need 51 F111s, 100 to 150 AFVGs and 154 Phantoms, for such quantities would be not only grossly expensive but ineffective.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the hon. Gentleman leaving the Harriers out of consideration?
    Mr. Mayhew: I have mentioned the circumstances. I will not go into the type of aircraft but that would be necessary.
    My right hon. Friend made a convincing case for the F111 as against the TSR2, and I hope and believe that the great majority of my hon. Friends will support him in this matter. I equally believe that he would have the same support if he were to indicate a new attitude towards our east of Suez rôle in the 'seventies. I therefore urge him to recognise that, if be wishes to make real economies in defence expenditure and to have a defence and overseas policy which makes sense for the future, he must make up his mind about when we will be clear of these commitments and impose British interests and a British view on events east of Suez in the years ahead.
    6.57 p.m.
    Mr. Eric Lubbock: The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) brought a note of reality back into the debate. Such a note had been lacking in the speeches which preceded his, notably because one gathered from their remarks that this was a debate about the TSR2 and not about the F111. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is a waste of time raking over the ashes of this question, particularly since the matter was resolved about two years ago.
    We should address our minds to the question the hon. Member for Woolwich, East asked: namely, what is the purpose of the F111, what rôle do we expect it to have in the Far East, as well as in Europe, and whether there is any necessity for such an aircraft at all? This question is asked in the Liberal Amendment.
    There is a difference of attitude between the Government Front Bench and the whole of the Tory Party, on the one hand, and the Liberal Party and some enlightened hon. Gentlemen opposite, on the other, about whether such an aircraft is really necessary. I was grateful to the Minister for having addressed his remarks to this question with such thoroughness, although I could not accept his arguments, for reasons which I shall give later.
    I claim that we in the Liberal Party have been absolutely consistent on this issue. We voted with the Government on the cancellation of the TSR2 and my hon. Friends and I have made it clear that we
    170
    supported that policy only on the assumption that it did not imply the subsequent purchase of American aircraft. In debates since then I have voted and spoken against the purchase of the F111. It is to be regretted, as the Liberal Amendment makes clear, that such large sums of the taxpayers' money is to be squandered on this aircraft. The fact that the F111 will be purchased on H.P. instead of by cash only means that we shall feel the burden in precisely the same way, but spread over a period of years—perhaps after this Parliament has expired and perhaps because the Minister does not think that it will have any effect on the electoral prospects of his party. I hope that the taxpayers will bear this in mind and will appreciate that the purchase of an expensive aircraft like this will make it very much more difficult to secure the reductions in taxation that we would all like to see.
    The Secretary of State gave a figure of £336 million as the total cost of the Fl11 programme over ten years. This is already a very substantial increase on any figure I have heard quoted hitherto. The figure given in The Times, which no one has yet disputed, was £280 million, so in a very short time we already have an increase of £56 million on the F111 programme. I should like to know how that difference is made up. One can see only £5 million arising from the inflationary increases of raw material and labour in the United States, if that amounts to £100,000 per aircraft, as has been stated. The figure does not, presumably, include the cost of modifying the bombs, because the Secretary of State said that the modification would have been necessary for the Phantom and other supersonic aircraft which are to come into service, Presumably, there are other additions which need to be identified.
    The right hon. Gentleman played down very much the possibility of increases in the cost of spares, but I understand that the initial contracts will cover only the first two years, and that after that the manufacturers may ask whatever they like—provided, of course, they are getting the same price from the United States Air Force. That is not an adequate protection. I believe that there will be very substantial escalation in the cost of spares and, in fact, General Dynamics admitted this to a meeting of hon. Members a year or 18 months ago.

    171
    The other very substantial sum with which we might be faced—and I am glad that the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) mentioned this—is for additional orders beyond the 50 aircraft which we have already contracted to purchase. If the Anglo-French variable geometry programme were to slip, or even if it were not to come off at all—and that I would very much regret—we would, according to the Government's present policies, have to place further orders for the F111 to make up the short fall. I am very anxious lest we should be entering into a continuing dollar commitment that will extend into the late 'seventies. This is a very good reason for considering carefully whether we want such aircraft.
    We have had references to the unwisdom of purchasing the aircraft before the technical snags have been ironed out, and the Minister himself referred to an article in Flight of 30th March which, he said gave a very good summary of the difficulties that have been encountered. He did not give the House any quotation from the article and, having looked it up meantime, can see why. Of the development programme the article says:
    "The F111 programme has encountered several serious snags. The empty weight of both F111 A and F111B is up on estimates; a drag problem exists (partly due to excess weight); and engine inlet and exhaust troubles have arisen. According to General Dynamics, an increase of 16 per cent. in the empty weight over original estimates has occurred …"
    The article then goes on to describe how that increase is made up: I do not propose to read the whole article, but I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that what I read is typical of the difficulties that have arisen in the development programme. I am not certain that we can be confident that these can be overcome before delivery——
    Mr. Robert Howarth: I do not have that article in front of me, but, speaking from memory, I believe that there is a concluding paragraph which gives a rather different impression from that given by the hon. Gentleman. Am I right?
    Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Member is welcome to have the article and can then make his own speech later on. As the Secretary of State suggested that we
    172
    should look up the article I did so while other hon. Members were speaking, and I have given what I think is a fair summary of it.
    I would also refer to a recent article in The Times, where, referring to the Secretary of State for Defence, the author said:
    "His haste in buying the aircraft before it is cleared might have been justified if there had been a vital military need for the F111, but the prospect of a further rundown east of Suez has made the military arguments even less convincing than they were."
    Here we come to the important questions raised by the hon. Member for Woolwich, East. Is the aircraft, whatever the Secretary of State says, primarily needed for an east of Suez rôle? Or, on the assumption that there was a fixed time-scale for our withdrawal, as he suggests and which I endorse, would it still be necessary to have this aircraft for the European rôle? Or could we so rearrange our procurement before the beginning of the 'seventies that the aircraft would become unnecessary?
    The primary characteristics of the Fill which have always been stated as important in this context are its range and its ability to operate from short, unprepared airfields, which arises from its variable geometry wings. Its range would be of primary importance if we were to operate in the Far East, because it is becoming increasingly difficult to find staging posts between here and Singapore at which to halt, and we have lost many of the overflying rights we used to enjoy in the Middle East and which made it possible for aircraft of comparatively short range to get out there by easy stages.
    Further, if we were to have this policy of bases in the Indian Ocean, of which we have heard nothing today, we would need aircraft of very long range, because those bases are thousands of miles away from any theatre of action in which British forces might be involved. The aircraft would require at least a long ferry range, if not an actual service potential when carrying a bomb load. I would therefore like to be told whether it is the Government's intention to pursue this expensive policy of building bases in the Indian Ocean. If that is the case, all the figures we have had today of comparison between the TSR2 and the F111 must be modified accordingly.

    173
    I am open to correction, but I do not believe that it was ever suggested that the TSR2 should operate in the Far East. If that were the case, the cost of the construction of the bases would have to be added to both sides of the equation, but one becomes very suspicious when, in a fairly long speech, not a word is said by the Secretary of State of whether the Government intend to proceed with this policy.
    Returning to the European rôle, I think that I am right in saying that the Secretary of State claims that such an aircraft would be as necessary inside Europe as outside it, and his reason was that in Europe we would be likely to be up against a very sophisticated opposition, but this is not the only aircraft we have in our procurement programme with a strike and reconnaissance capability. We have the Phantom, which I would have thought one could use in the European rôle as a Canberra replacement, and we have the P1 127 vertical take-off and landing aircraft which would be suitable for areas in which prepared airfields did not exist. Again, it is difficult to see what its rôle would be in the European context, but I understand that this is partly intended as a replacement for the Hunter GA9.
    It is almost impossible to believe that one would purchase an aircraft of this complexity if one had been thinking entirely in terms of Europe. I do not think that that argument will stand up. Among the examples given by the Secretary of State was Cyprus. It is ludicrous to think of reconnaissance by the F111 in such a situation as that. Helicopters were needed there. Our Armed Forces were not at all well supplied with helicopters at the time of the Cyprus emergency. To say that we need a variable geometry aircraft costing £2·6 million to cope with a civil emergency such as that really is ludicrous.
    The other example given by the right hon. Gentleman was the confrontation, where he said that the fighting had been keep at guerilla level in the jungle because the enemy knew that we had this strike potential and so did not use their own aircraft against the helicopters and ground forces that were operating there. That probably is a much better argument for the F111, but I suggest that we should never again be involved in a situation of that type.
    174
    I think that was the Government's policy. I seem to recall a passage in the White Paper saying that it was the policy of the Government never again to be involved in a policy of the type we had in Indonesia. I sincerely hope that that is the policy, but if so, surely it is wrong for the Secretary of State to quote in support of the contention that we need the F111 what happened in Malaysia. We believe that Britain should not have any rôle in the Far East but should withdraw from that area as soon as we can, consistent with our obligations. We do not believe that an aircraft of this specification is necessary in Europe. We do know that vast burdens will be laid on the British people by this policy perhaps even beyond those laid by the original purchase of 50 of these aircraft. For all these reasons we shall vote against the Government tonight.
    7.11 p.m.
    Mr. Peter Mahon: In commenting on the important matter before the House today one must ask oneself whether the Government are endeavouring to hold an even keel between necessary defence expenditure and the tremendous expenditure in the social field which this Administration must be prepared to accept.
    It is fair to say—I put it no higher—that in this fearful war-torn world none of those in a position of authority can afford the luxury of donning the mantle of delightful irresponsibility and accepting the belief that a refusal to participate in the sort of expenditure envisaged today will of necessity provide the open sesame to the economic salvation of our country. We must be careful to guard against such dangerous illusions. Having in my lifetime lived through two devastating wars, I can well see that to eschew expenditure on military projects because of our laudable desire to build homes, schools and hospitals and to improve our social services could sadly in the long run result in placing our country not only in a dangerous situation, but in a contemptible position in the eyes of the world.
    I am aware that we are, of course, desirous, in view of our tremendous sacrifices in two catastrophic wars, of adopting a moral posture and of resisting as far as is humanly possible any involvement in future. I cannot erase the memory of

    175
    the desire of the late Pope Pius XII to assist in bringing about the peace of the world and the outlandish reaction of Stalin, the Russian leader, who inquired how many divisions he had. It is indeed a hard world and, therefore, with the realism which we have always endeavoured to reveal, we must accept it as we find it and not as we would wish it to be.
    With my background it would be impossible to quarrel with colleagues who are anxious to compel a substantial reduction in defence expenditure, but it must not be overlooked that implicit in this desire is the danger of the exposure of our people to the greatest possible trials and tribulations. If we have gained anything at all in our experience of the past we must agree that nothing is so devastating to the morale of our people as not to be able to cope with a state of emergency. There are times when we must
    "tell the truth, and shame the devil."
    Why are we pursuing this course today? Far be it from my desire to deprive hon. Members opposite of their brief moments of glory. We are buying American planes because in 1965 we cancelled the TSR2. We cancelled the TSR2 because maybe at that particular time we were imbibing too much "Worcester Sauce". Today it would appear to have lost its flavour. I disagree with an hon. Member who said earlier that the Labour Government were responsible for the abandonment of the TSR2 or for the cost of the TSR2 being abandoned. One does not wish to be so sadly nostalgic but I wonder, if we could put the clock back, whether we would make the same decision. I await with interest my hon. Friend's comments on this aspect of the situation.
    My constituents played a tremendous part in producing the Canberra jet bomber. It was technically ahead of its day and it sold in thirteen countries. Then followed the Lightning and then the TSR2, which again was technologically ahead of anything else in the world, particularly in what the Royal Air Force at that time wanted it to do. However, the orders, lamentably, were far too few for the research and development costs involved. This meant that each aircraft became too expensive. It is true that the Government achieved some of their objectives
    176
    by cancellation of the TSR2. First, there was the reduction in Government expenditure. Secondly, there was reduction in the aircraft industry labour force. The third stated objective was to maintain a viable aircraft industry.
    Those aims were accomplished with varying degrees of success, but cancellation left a big gap; never let there be any dubiety about that. Once again there is a high level of unemployment in Lancashire. Without wishing to be churlish or wise after the event, one is perhaps entitled to ask if it would have been better to produce this magnificent plane—this veritable box of tricks—and to have endeavoured to weather the financial storm. Most certainly there was an impasse, a dilemma, then as there is now. At that time my sympathies were in the first place accorded to my constituents, the aircraft workers. My sympathies were also with myself as a newly-elected Member, as I was in the pillory which I thought rather unjustified at that time. Lastly my sympathies were with the Government because I believed at the time that they had been left too little room for compromise.
    I was a new Member and the Prime Minister, too, was new. Today he is, if he will forgive the metaphor, and as they say in Lancashire, an old dog for a hard road. Acting on the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread. I asked the Prime Minister for 75 TSR2s. He said, as indeed the Secretary of State said today, that this would not ease the position and that regrettably the decision was irrevocable.
    I am not the sort of individual who believes that democracy is good and wholesome only when I am getting my own way. I accepted the position with some semblance of grace, heartburning, heartrending, unbearable as it was for myself and those whom I represent. Even in retrospect, and even though it is easy to be wise after the event, I would not agree that it is wise this evening to indulge in recrimination to the extent that some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have done today. There are so many factors which have militated for so long a period against the production of this wonder plane. The mammoth and most tragic error is that it was considered from the start that for this particular project a

    177
    bottomless reservoir of wealth was available.
    Also prejudicial to progress was the rapid change of Ministers of Aviation—12 Ministers in as many years. There was no statesmanship and, if that was not bad enough, no salesmanship. There was a confession of failure on the part of one hon. Gentleman who said that he, along with some colleagues, spent three weeks in Australia to no avail. That was a very honest expression of the position at that time.
    Viewing the position dispassionately—and in Preston it must be conceded that I was very close to events—I could not dismiss the thought that, whoever formed the Government following the October, 1964 Election, the TSR2 would not have a long existence. Regrettably, the purchase of American planes is a movement far removed in my estimation from bolstering up the strength and prestige of our own aircraft industry. The cancellation of innumerable projects, with constant unemployment, redundancy payments and mobility of labour, with all its detrimental effects on the stability of family life, is also instrumental in sapping the dignity, initiative and morale of our working people.
    If we have the slightest knowledge of industrial life, we must be aware that the cancellation of large projects brings in its trail tremendous disillusionment—not Only unemployment, not only the loss of a man's skill and craft, but also the unhappy thought that industrial "know-how" is being scattered to the four winds. How long can the successful existence of this country continue on this basis? Recession, retrogression, changing horses whilst crossing the stream, are sapping the initiative and morale of our working people and undermining the strength, confidence and great resilience which we know they possess.
    I shall not by any stretch of the imagination join in the strictures indulged in by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. They were entitled, if they thought fit, to do that. I could say much about the sufferings of those in my constituency, through one cancellation and industrial upset after another, continuing all along the line, but I shall not do so, because I should be in great danger of incurring your displeasure, Mr. Speaker; and this I am not anxious to do.
    178
    There may be compensations in pursuing this policy today. The Secretary of State was eloquent and sincere. He was in no doubt that we were traversing the right path. I can only hope that this is the answer for the future. I believe that the key to the future is, above all things, to rekindle the fire of faith in our own people and to eradicate from our own Labour Party philosophy the thought that there is a tolerable level of unemployment. This is new jargon. I have been a long time in public life, as you have, Mr. Speaker, but never have we spoken along these lines.
    My advice to the Government and to my colleagues is to perish the thought and remove it from our Government thinking. What we require for the benefit of the country is no looking back, but a continuation of such projects as we have been discussing today. What we require at all times is the highest level of employment and a fully expansionist policy with regard to aircraft, as with regard to shipping and other developments. We want a carefully thought out system of planning, with no cancellations envisaged at any time in the future, and a determined policy to keep Britain and its people at work, and, in so doing, to enhance the security and dignity of the good honest, decent, and upright people of our country.
    7.27 p.m.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I am very glad to follow the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Peter Mahon). We knew his predecessor and we know how deeply involved his constituents are and have been in the aircraft programme.
    The Secretary of State did himself less than justice when he sought to say that those of us who criticised the F111 or any aircraft did it—I quote his words—out of malice or commercial interest. That was a very unworthy viewpoint for the Front Bench to put forward in all seriousness. We have had three speeches from the Labour back benches, of which the last was one, which were obviously completely devoid of malice or commercial interest. As the hon. Members for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) and Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said, we all speak sometimes for our constituents but always with the interests of the defence of the nation in our hearts. It

    179
    was particularly unwise for the Secretary of State to make such a statement, because, if such accusations are to be made, people in glass houses should not throw stones.
    The right hon. Gentleman referred to Mr. Richard Worcester, who is an aircraft consultant and who is adviser to the Labour Party. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am sorry. I quote The Times of 26th June, 1965, which said that Mr. Worcester
    "told The Times last night that he had written a report in March, 1964, which was presented to the Labour leadership and read by them in March and April. On June 20 he attended a meeting with the party leaders who appeared to be well satisfied with the report and to accept it."
    [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Mr. Worcester went on to claim in an opening meeting that he knew the right hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) extremely well and had done so for many years.
    I have here, for greater clarification, a copy of the Worcester plan. This is what he said; this is what the Government did—cancel TSR2, HS681 and P1154. All three were cancelled. Then, put Concord into abeyance. The Government tried to do this but were foiled by the contract terms and the French. Then, order F111 and C141 with possible interaction on ordering Phantom and C130. Both the Phantom and the C130 were ordered.
    I could go on to show what Mr. Worcester himself said and what has happened. What he put in his plan clearly shows that he was justified in claiming that his policy was accepted by the Labour leadership. As the hon. Member for Preston, South said, perhaps we were suffering from too much "Worcester sauce" at that time.
    The right hon. Gentleman began in avuncular mood, rather like "Uncle Mac" used to talk to listeners in the old days on the B.B.C. He was talking, first, to try to convert those below the Gangway opposite, very few of whom are here today, trying to persuade his Left wing to go into the Lobby in support of the Government tonight. Perhaps, if we have the hon. Members for Woolwich, East and for Coventry, North with us tonight, we may not know how many hon. Members opposite abstain because, although we have a three-line
    180
    Whip on our side, the Government side has only a two-line Whip. This is a cunning way of obscuring the number of people who, for reasons of conscience, abstain.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Even if we cannot expect to have the right hon. Gentleman with us in the Lobby, it would be nice if we could have him with us in the Chamber for the debate.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: My hon. Friend expresses a feeling which we all have. The Secretary of State, who began in an avuncular way and later made some very vicious comments which cannot be borne out, has been with us very little. He came in for a moment or two when the hon. Member for Woolwich, East was speaking, but that was all. It is a pity, as this is in many ways a censure debate directed at the right hon. Gentleman, that he should leave his place and be so little with us.
    The Secretary of State put before the House a fog of obscurity on the figures. He began by saying that he would put a 15-year plan before us. He dealt in global figures, saying that he had allowed for this factor and that, for X, Y and Z, but he never said for how much they were in the account. When we questioned him on this issue, he confessed that in the 15-year plan the joker in the pack—all hon. Members who play poker will know that one can make a good hand if one has the joker—was the Anglo-French VG, and he told us that he had allowed £150 million for this project, which is still a paper aeroplane. As I understand it, about £350 million will be needed to buy 150 of these aircraft, if we can agree with the French on the operational requirement and the type of aircraft to be produced, and if or when we know anything about the cost.
    Strangely enough, when we came to the 10-year programme in the right hon. Gentleman's speech, the Anglo-French VG was left out altogether. In the Defence White Paper last year, at the top of page 11, the Government said:
    "By the mid-1970s, we intend that the Anglo-French variable-geometry aircraft should begin to take over this and other rôles. Both operationally and industrially, this aircraft is the core of our long-term aircraft programme".
    The House will remember that it was the Anglo-French VG and a small number

    181
    of F111 which were to form the basis of a viable Royal Air Force force, and there was also to be a contribution to the Navy from the Anglo-French VG because, it was said, it could operate from carriers, or some future carriers. It is surprising that, in the right hon. Gentleman's 10-year programme, this particular joker, of which we know so little was not included. In only eight years, so the White Paper tells us, it is to be the core of the programme.
    There was a slight difference of opinion about the number of TSR2s planned. On our side, we thought the 110 had been the project when we left office—I was not a member of the Government in the latter months—and the right hon. Gentleman said that the figure was 158. These were to be replaced with a small number of F111s, 10 of which were to be trained aircraft and 40 to be operational, the F111K.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force (Mr. Merlyn Rees): As a Minister with responsibility for the Royal Air Force, I must say, for the record, that no one has said that 10 aircraft will form the O.C.U. and will be used for training purposes.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I can give the facts, but I shall not delay the House by doing so. When we first heard about the F111 and the purchase of 10, we were told that these were training aircraft, that they would be taken in the Mark I form, not suitable for operations, they would not have the avionics, and so on. I doubt that one can manage with many fewer than 10 aircraft for an operational conversion unit and do all that is necessary. Perhaps it may not be the full 10 for that purpose, but we were certainly told that only 40 would be the F111K, modified to suit the R.A.F. requirement.
    On the question of cost, when the option was first taken up, we learned about this not from the right hon. Gentleman, because he did not announce it, but from The Times of 7th April, 1965, which had a headline,
    "Uproar in Commons over scrapping of TSR2. £357 million option on American F111A aircraft."
    It was said that the option was £357 million, but there has been an enormous cut-back. We have not taken anything like that number of aircraft, and neither
    182
    have we met the capital cost of that sum. The right hon. Gentleman told us today that he thought that the basic cost would be £2·1 million. There were lots of hedges on that, for escalation of wages and prices, an extra £0·1 million for that making £2·2 million, an extra £0·5 million taking us up to the point when the aircraft is modified to meet British requirements, and so on. In answer to a question from me, the right hon. Gentleman confessed that the initial spares, not the continuing spares, and the test equipment would cost just over £1 million per aircraft, £55 million for 50 aircraft.
    On that basis, therefore, it is £3·6 million per aircraft. If we are to buy 50, the cost will be about £180 million. So the original option of £357 million has been cut by half. In the absence of other edification, the House can only assume the remainder is to be made up with spending on the Anglo-French VG, the only other aircraft which can meet the operational requirements.
    We have been told that it is expected that the 40 F111Ks should be in squadron service and in operation for 10 years. With the need for aircraft to be modified, with the risk of landing accidents, errors of judgment, and so on, can it be thought that a force of 40 aircraft will last us for operational purposes for 10 years? It seems to me that a force of this sort, particularly if it is to be deployed some in this country, some east of Suez, as we were told today, is not a viable force, and certainly will not give us a good cost evaluation.
    We have heard a great deal from this Government about getting value for money. This is probably the poorest value for money that has ever been bought. Whenever one produces small numbers of highly sophisticated aircraft, the cost of the simulators, of the training programme, of the spares programme and the rest, is very much larger—one has to have one set of spares for the Phantom, one set for the Anglo-French VG, and one set for the F111—and there can be nothing more uneconomical than having small numbers of highly sophisticated aircraft. One gets poor serviceability and very high costs.
    The right hon. Gentleman dodged all our questions, questions put very penetratingly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West

    183
    (Mr. Powell). Why does he always castigate the British aircraft industry? It is said that the British aircraft industry is the one in which price escalates. The right hon. Gentleman said this again today. If he looks at the figures, he will find that the United States F111 has escalated from an original estimate of 2·9 million dollars each to 8 million dollars each, a two-and-a-half-times escalation during its development. These figures ought to be brought to the notice of the House. The right hon. Gentleman would put his case more fairly if he said that, when one is operating near the bounds of knowledge, when one's research and development effort is breaking new ground, it is almost impossible to predict all the problems which one will meet or how much it will cost to solve them.
    That is why TSR2 escalated and why the Concord will escalate. Can the right hon. Gentleman say that the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft will not escalate in cost? Can he say with his hand on his heart that the £150 million for research and development is all we shall contribute to the development of that aircraft, and not a penny more? Of course, he cannot. It will be breaking new grounds with its variable geometry layout, and of course the costs will escalate during its development. We should acknowledge that. We are fair in the House and know that this always happens when one is pioneering in a scientific sphere. It happened with atomic power stations, the cost of which escalated in the same way; in many instances they cost double what was expected.
    We were told the operational date earlier, when the option was taken up and a statement was issued by the Ministry of Defence that all 50 of the aircraft would be delivered by January, 1970. Today we were told—and this is another slight slant—that they would be in squadron service by 1969. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is right. I am very glad to see that he has just been able to return to the Chamber and give use the privilege of seeing him here and perhaps answering some of the points. If that is the date when they will be in service, and other nations are to get
    184
    operational aircraft first, which are they? Is it the U.S.A. ——
    Mr. Healey: I said so during the debate. If the hon. Gentleman had listened more carefully to what I said when I was here, he would not have found it necessary to make the remarks which I gather he has been making in the last few minutes.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I said earlier that I thought that the right hon. Gentleman had lectured us in an avuncular manner. If he is only to come here from time to time to pick up remarks and abuse hon. Members he will be even less welcome, and had better leave the House again. He cannot go on in this arrogant manner of teaching the House. I hope he will apologise. Would he now please withdraw his statement that people who have spoken in the debate or criticised the F111 do it—I took down his words—through malice or commercial interest?
    Mr. Healey: I did not say anything of the sort. With respect, if the hon. Gentleman would listen more carefully to what I say, he would not make these absurd allegations. I said that a great deal of the criticism is malicious and ill-founded, and a great deal stems from origins which have a commercial interest at stake. If the hon. Gentleman does not know that to be the case, he is much less well aware of the nature of the aircraft lobbies around the world than I think he is.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Of course, the aircraft lobbies are very powerful. The hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) made exactly the same points and drew the same implication as I did, that it was malice or commercial interest and I am delighted to have the right hon. Gentleman's slight gloss on his statement, which makes it more acceptable to the House.
    If only the right hon. Gentleman would not give grist to the opposition lobby mills, the British aircraft industry would succeed in selling its aircraft more successfully. He is always saying that British aircraft escalate in cost and are late, but American aircraft never escalate and will be produced on time. Those words are quoted around the world by American spokesmen.
    Mr. Healey: The hon. Gentleman was here when I spoke at the beginning of the debate and when one of his hon. Friends pointed out that there have been accusations of a 50 per cent. escalation in the research and development cost of the F111. I pointed out that according to the earlier figures concealed from the House at the time by the previous Government, there had been an escalation of 500 per cent. in the research and development cost of the TSR2. Those are facts which are well known throughout the world, and it does no credit to the hon. Gentleman to suggest that anybody who refers to them in argument is knocking the British aircraft industry.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: It would perhaps have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had said that the F111 had escalated by 250 per cent. [Interruption.] That is true. I can give the figures. It has escalated from 2·8 million dollars to 8 million dollars. The right hon. Gentleman is always quoting figures against the British aircraft industry, but never against the American. There are some things wrong with the British aircraft industry, but there are also many things wrong with the American aircraft industry.
    I am sorry to have taken up the time of the House, but I had made those points in debate and as the right hon. Gentleman had not heard them I wished to make them again. Perhaps the Minister winding up will tell us whether there are penalty clauses on the F111 contract. British contractors have very strict penalty clauses both on delivery dates and on short-fall in performance. If those demands can be made on British contractors, the Government could make the same demands on American contractors.
    I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has so failed to answer the penetrating arguments put forward by my right hon. Friend. He shelved them off with a lecture to the school children below the gangway, many of whom were not here. I hope that the House will defeat him tonight and make sure that he is no longer able to mislead us and conceal figures from the House.
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: I do not know what kind of poker school the hon.
    186
    Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) habitually inhabits, but no game of poker that I have ever played in allows the use of jokers in the pack.
    Be that as it may, I thought that the hon. Member was a little less than generous to my right hon. Friend who, gave us a speech which was exhaustively, even exhaustingly, thorough. As I presume the hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. Friend has only recently returned from a very long and no doubt exhausting trip to the Far East and other places, including, I believe, my own native land.
    I speak not only as one who has been very critical of the escalation in the cost of the F111, on which I thought my right hon. Friend's remarks today were only partly reassuring, but also as one who, wanting to see a strong British aircraft industry, has observed with considerable fascination the attempts of hon. Members opposite, both inside and outside the Chamber, to rewrite the history of the TSR2, so that it has become in retrospect the brightest jewel in the crown of British technology and an elequent testimonial to the sagacity, foresight and financial acumen of successive Conservative Ministers of Aviation. In fact, it was nothing of the sort. Whatever its technical attributes, which were very considerable, and which reflected great credit on the designers and those who carried out their plans, the TSR2 project, at least in its financial aspects, was a monmument to confused thinking and was almost criminal in its disregard of the taxpayers' interests in the matter.
    If hon. Members opposite doubt that, let them recall, as the Minister did earlier today, the Civil Appropriation Accounts of 1964–65, in which Sir Edmund Compton, a fearless, independent-minded and highly efficient Comptroller and Auditor-General, who has very properly been elevated to be the nation's first Ombudsman, gave a detailed analysis of the rising costs of the TSR2, a story which blows a very loud raspberry at the idea that our Conservative predecessors in government were in any way businesslike in the way they conducted the nation's affairs.
    I am sorry that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) has just left the Chamber. With the loyal help of the right hon. Member for Stafford and

    187
    Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser), he claimed that the TSR2 contract had been lost to Australia because of fear of the arrival of a Labour Government in Britain. That is the most arrant nonsense. I had the great pleasure of pointing out what nonsense it was to the then Minister of Aviation, my former opponent, Mr. Julian Amery, and all I had to do was to quote the remarks of the then Australian Minister of Defence several days after that ridiculous canard first appeared. The Minister, Mr. Athol Townley, indignantly denied that there was any truth in that schoolboy assertion by Mr. Amery and his supporters. I hope that we are not going to have this ridiculous and childish nonsense making a reappearance in this or any future debate.
    On the civilised precept—and I hope that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) will forgive my Latin, de mortuis nil nisi bonum, I forbear from elaborating on the rôle of the most recent Conservative Minister of Aviation, Mr. Julian Amery. Likewise I shall not mention the Ferranti scandal, which happened in his time at the Ministry and which so nearly cost the nation and the taxpayers millions of £s. Instead, I shall confine myself to what Sir Edmund Compton had to say in his report:
    "The TSR2 project began with an estimated development cost of £80–£90 million in 1959"—
    my right hon. Friend gave even more interesting figures today—
    "and rose steadily until in January, 1964, it had reached £240–£260 million."
    That is roughly a threefold increase in just over four years.
    As an aside, perhaps one should say that, even by reference to the inflation which was so distinctive a feature of successive Conservative Governments, this is good going, though hardly from the taxpayers' point of view. Sir Edmund went on to point out that in May, 1964,
    "The Ministry of Aviation informed the Ministry of Defence that, while technical problems on the TSR2 project had been underestimated by all concerned"—
    that was the understatement of 1964—
    "they had had occasion over a number of years to make representations to the contractor about the quality of the technical and financial
    188
    management of the project, within the main firm and in relation to its sub-contractors."
    I shall content myself with one observation only on this. If the then Minister of Aviation had made louder and longer representations on the financial side, the Ferranti scandal would probably have been avoided and so, too, would quite a number of other less-publicised "rackets", each of which played its part in this astronomical escalation of the cost of the TSR2.
    From my personal experience in Preston, I can give one example. According to my information, a number of items of heavy capital equipment, with years of usefulness to the manufacturers still in them, were happily charged in full to the Ministry's account for the TSR2—all, of course, on the "cost-plus" basis—without anyone being so indelicate as to mention that an offset of some kind appeared to be indicated, assuming that the firm was to retain them for its own use. My informant, a responsible employee of the company, claims that, for one item alone in this category, some £50,000 was involved.
    I mention these matters not to reopen old wounds, and certainly not to disturb the former right hon. Members for Preston, North and Bromley in their well-merited retirement, but merely to remind the House that hon. Members opposite are the last people entitled to castigate my right hon. Friend for the difficulties he faces over the F111K—difficulties which arose not only because of the bungling incompetence of the last Government—my right hon. Friend is an able administrator although perhaps reading a bad brief—but also because he has taken over far too many of the outdated and dangerous policy assumptions of that Government.
    Not the least of these is the assumption that it is possible for this country— which is in rather desperate financial straits now, as it was during most of the time the Conservatives were in power—to maintain itself as a major world imperial power able and willing to shoulder burdens and so-called peacekeeping operations—but which so frequently have turned into a modern variant of the old imperialist game of "bashing the wogs".
    This bears directly on the current argument about the F111K because, as

    189
    has been freely acknowledged, the principal rôle envisaged for the F111K by the Minister and, presumably, the Government, is east of Suez, as a long range strike reconnaissance aircraft. If ever there was a contradiction between stated aims and the means with which it is hoped to carry them out, this is it.
    According to this year's White Paper, as I read it, the Government's policy is that never again should Britain have to undertake operations, even on the scale of the recent Indonesian confrontation, outside Europe. One is bound to ask: what rôle could a bomber force of this kind possibly play in small scale policing operations or internal security situations? At 1,500 m.p.h., even the point bombing my right hon. Friend referred to is bound to hit civilians, and plenty of them.
    Without going into further detail, I hope that my right hon. Friend even at this late hour—perhaps it is about five minutes past 12 o'clock already—will take a day or two off, go in solitude perhaps to Chequers, and rethink most carefully the assumptions on which his present highly expensive and fundamentally mistaken defence policies are based. I am sure that the Patronage Secretary would view his absence with tolerance and I am sure that the new policy he would produce after such cerebration would not only confound his and my political enemies—who have no real place in this argument—but would make possible those other social objectives which all of us on this side of the House want for the people of Britain, and want soon.
    7.56 p.m.
    Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman two specific questions to which I hope to receive specific answers. I have asked them both before but to neither has a specific answer been given. When I asked earlier whether the F111K contract had specified in it the price at which replacement aircraft could be purchased, either to make up losses in training accidents or, indeed, through operations, his reply then was that it had not yet reached that stage of contract negotiation.
    Presumably, now that the final contract has been signed, we can have a straight answer as to whether or not the price for follow-up replacement aircraft is larger
    190
    than for the initial buy. Obviously, if we are to do as the right hon. Gentleman has done and give, five, ten and 15-year forecasts realistically, we must assume a certain rate of attrition in the aircraft which will have to be replaced. That is a reasonable assumption. If they are used in action, the attrition may be very great.
    I warn the right hon. Gentleman against the danger of believing that, because an aircraft is expensive and sophisticated, it is in the same measure invulnerable. The Americans have had heavy losses of aircraft in Vietnam against a primitive form of anti-aircraft fire. Incidentally, those losses include Phantoms. The rate of loss emphasises the point. If we only had 40 aircraft operational and lost even 10 per cent. presumably replacements would be needed.
    I am extremely worried about spares prices and the agreement that we should pay the same price for spares as the United States Air Force. My recollection of the all-party meeting upstairs, at which the Vice-President of General Dynamics and a senior executive of United Aircraft, which makes the engines, were present, when we asked where the money would come from if they hit unexpected development costs, the answer was that it would come from Government spares.
    In other words, we do not contract out of the very great elasticity of development costs merely by having a fixed unit cost for the aircraft. In the renegotiation procedures which, apparently, the American Air Force has for its spares, this works both ways. If the company makes an excessive profit, the renegotiation knocks the price down for spares, but if the profit is below normal then in renegotiation the load is usually put on spares prices rather than on to unit cost prices. This is not just me having a suspicious mind. Anyone who looks at the history of the N.A.T.O. orders for the Lockheed F104 after the two-year umbrella over spare prices will know that in many cases those prices went up by more than 200 per cent.
    The Secretary of State endeavoured to discourage hon. Members from criticising the F111 by imputing extremely unworthy motives, if not to all, at least to many of those who presume to criticise him. He also intimated that it might be bad for the morale of the R.A.F. in

    191
    some way if the aircraft were criticised. I suspect that in Western Germany there are many people who wish that there had been more criticism of the F104.
    We are now in the position of having ordered an aircraft which is in terrible technical trouble. It is in such bad technical trouble with its engines that, instead of trying to cure each problem by modification action, the designers are having to undertake simultaneous modifications to deal with different problems at both ends of the engine, and the results of those modifications therefore cannot be read clearly. This is the sort of panic measure which has to be taken when one is up against a firm commitment date-wise, and that is the position in which United Aircraft finds itself with this engine.
    It is fair to say that however high the technical competence of a firm of engine-builders every now and again it produces a "pup", and that is what has happened with this aircraft. It happens to be our misfortune as well as theirs, in the sense that we have ordered it, and that is why I ask the Secretary of State the specific question. If the handling characteristics of the engine are still bad, for instance, if it gets severe surge when the aircraft has to be yawed for one reason or another, if the reheat system blows out even when reheat is selected, as on the Lockheed F104 it is still doing after four years in service, do we take the aircraft, or wait until the trouble has been sorted out, if it can be?
    When I put that question before, the Secretary of State answered a different question. He said that if the aircraft did not meet its performance specification we would not take it, but he did not say what the performance specification was. In writing a performance specification it is not usual to cover matters of this kind. There are certain things which can be covered definitively—what is known as the re-light envelope, the conditions of altitude, attitude, speed, temperature at which to re-light an engine which has had a flame-out. There are certain things like that which can be specified. One can even get a guaranteed surge line curve, but it would normally be assumed that an aircraft could be flown in normal operating conditions without losing engines from compressor surge. I think that
    192
    the aircraft is suffering from surge rather than stall, although it has been said to be suffering from stall rather than surge. Perhaps it does that as well.
    I hope that the Secretary of State will tell us quite definitely—not the answer which he gave me and which I am sure was true and which I was delighted to hear, when he said that if it did not meet performance specifications it would not be accepted, and I should hope not—but whether, if it still has these very severe handling defects, which, incidentally, will mean that we shall be very likely to lose both pilots and extremely expensive aircraft, we will delay accepting these aircraft and, incidentally, paying for them, too.
    The Secretary of State remarked that there was no time to collaborate with anyone on an alternative project. There was time to collaborate with the French on the Spey/Mirage. The Government decided against that project. They may have been right or wrong, but, personally, I think that they were absolutely wrong. That aircraft would have done what we wanted at no greater expense, but without having to use dollars which we did not have, and it would have greatly strengthened our technical and political collaboration with France. I think that the day will come when we shall rue the day when we turned down this opportunity of technical collaboration with the French.
    Whether it flies acceptably or not, the destructive capacity of this aircraft in one direction is assured. It is guaranteed as an effective destructor of the equilibrium of our balance of payments. That has been built into a future date. When our great Prime Minister claims that we have balanced our payments, what he has done is to postpone the imbalance, probably hoping that by then he will be out of office, as happened in 1951.
    Mr. Healey: The hon. Gentleman is making a very interesting speech. He will be aware of the offset agreement and the fact that already in the first 12 years' payments we have drawn up contracts covering half the total dollar cost. I should be interested to hear his explanation of how he maintains that that is a drain on our balance of payments.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: I am not aware that what the right hon. Gentleman has

    193
    just said is accurate. I suspect that he is including Saudi Arabia in that and that, as is well known, has nothing to do with it. That was a complete smokescreen. What happened was that the Saudis wanted to buy an aircraft which the Americans were not prepared to sell them. They wanted to buy the Lockheed F104 and the Americans were in enough trouble having them sticking into the ground all over Europe without wanting to have them sticking into the ground all over the Arabian Peninsula as well. That is what happened in that negotiation. The Saudis wanted a different aircraft from the Americans, but the Americans at that time were not willing to sell them. All that ended with the purchase of the Lightnings, but it had nothing to do with Britain taking the F1ll, and that contention is a complete smokescreen.
    We are now at the stage when we are committed to very heavy dollar payments, and the fact that those payments recede into the future does not mean that they do not have to be met. It means only that they have to be met later, and, presumably, with interest, because this is not an interest-free loan. When I put a Question to the present Foreign Secretary, who was then Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, asking what plans the Government had to increase exports to cover the extra cost, I got the fatuous reply that since trade was multilateral the question did not arise, as though hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of debts could be accumulated which in some mysterious way we did not have to pay because trade was multilateral. If that was the right hon. Gentleman's theory of economics, perhaps it explains why he is no longer Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.
    I am extremely worried about when the rooks come home to roost for the payment of this aircraft. I made the point earlier that it is in some ways improbable that we will ever see both the airbus and the variable geometry aircraft. We must therefore decide which of those two to go for, lest we get neither, or lest we get one too late, by which time the world market will have gone. Unless we express our priorities in this, we shall be in grave danger of getting neither, in which case all the Government's talk about the morale of the Royal Air Force
    194
    will be revealed as complete clap-trap without the aircraft for the men to fly, for the career structure will not be there.
    I want answers to my two specific questions about the cost of replacement. aircraft and about whether we will refuse delivery unless the handling characteristics of the aircraft are safe—and I mean safe, because I do not want the condition of the F104 when it was delivered to the Western German Air Force to be regarded as the condition of a safe aeroplane; it was not. We shall eventually find, having taken delivery of these aircraft that we will have taken delivery of an aircraft at far too high a price for the job it is likely to do and without having given our own economy any offsetting advantage from so doing. It may well be that had we had the TSR2 we should have still have paid more than we needed to pay per unit for the job done. That is quite possible, depending in the type of war in which we found ourselves. But at least the benefit from that expenditure would have gone into our economy instead of going out of it, and at least part of the overheads of that programme would have been shared by the civil aircraft which as a nation we are trying to export.
    The conclusions of this matter have not yet been reached, but I regard it certainly with no relish and with very little confidence.
    8.11 p.m.
    Mr. Robert Howarth: I understood that the purpose of a censure debate arising on Supply was to be an exercise by the Opposition in probing the Government's policy, finding the weak spots and then exploiting them. The two most recent examples—today and that on child poverty not long ago— were from the Opposition's point of view particularly unfortunate choices. I thought that on both occasions the leading spokesmen for the Opposition were completely obliterated by the answers given by the Government spokesmen. The performance by my right hon. Friend today was masterful. It completely revealed the spurious nature of the charges made by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South-West (Mr. Powell).
    Before I come to the main point of my speech, may I take up a number of points made by the hon. Member for

    195
    Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) and take issue with him on the theme which he repeated throughout his speech in making a comparison between the ordering by Germany and other Western European nations of the F104 and our ordering of the F111. There is an important difference. It should be pointed out that the F104 has not been ordered by the United States Air Force whereas the F111 has been ordered by the United States Air Force in large numbers. In spite of what the hon. Member suggested were serious problems in the development of the F111—I will come to that point later—I put it to him that the United States Air Force, who do not usually buy a pig in a poke, have shown their confidence in the success of this aeroplane by ordering it in large quantities.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: To give the picture its full outline, will the hon. Member agree that in fact they have shown their reduced confidence by reducing the number of their orders, not by increasing them?
    Mr. Howarth: As I understand it, the orders are being phased over a longer period. Until such time as they have resolved the argument about the development of the FB1 11 and the future of a supersonic strategic bomber, the numbers needed in the future are as yet unknown. But the numbers involved in the United States Air Force order for the F1ll are very considerable. I think that it is reasonable to suggest that they have confidence in the development of the aircraft. If it were as bad as the hon. Member suggests, presumably they would even have considered cancelling the project. Like us, the Americans have quite a record of cancelled aircraft projects, and there is no reason why the F111 should be sacrosanct.
    In coming to the debate we need to look at the background of the Government's decision to order the F111, and to do this we need to look at the position when the Government took over in October 1964, when it was found that a most alarming situation faced the R.A.F. because of the failure of the Conservative Government to lay plans for the replacement of aircraft which were of a considerable age. The Canberra has been mentioned. About 20 years total life had
    196
    been given by that aircraft. The Hunter was a very old plane and urgently in need of replacement. The Shackleton, which has not been mentioned today, was another aircraft in respect of which the procrastination of Conservative Governments had left the R.A.F. with a very old plane. That situation has been put right by the present Government, and it is no wonder—and I confirm what was said by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey)—that the morale of the R.A.F. is very high at present. They are getting the aircraft, and the prospect is that they will continue to receive very fine aircraft to undertake the tasks being allotted to them.
    But we need to understand how that situation arose and why the Government, when they came into power in 1964, found the R.A.F. in this position, operating very old aircraft with the prospect of replacement many years away. It was all based on the infamous Defence White Paper of 1957 which postulated the end of manned aircraft for the R.A.F. From this wholly disastrous basis arose all the problems about which we are still arguing. This should not surprise us, because from conception right through to operation of an aircraft we are talking of a span of from five to 15 years, so that the errors of the 1957 White Paper are still unfortunately with us.
    The many decisions, tough as they were, by the present Government to hive off the uneconomic and ultra-expensive projects bequeathed to them in a last-minute ordering spree by the Conservatives in the early 1960's have received widespread support. One could have had—as I have had—a slight difference of opinion as to which projects might have been continued, but, generally speaking, the overall decision of the Government to recognise that we could not maintain the type of irresponsible programme initiated in the last few years of the Tory Government has certainly been supported by the great majority of hon. Members.
    We inherited an impossible financial obligation. We followed this by instituting the Plowden Committee to look at the whole question of British aviation. We accepted that Committee's Report and have acted on many of the recommendations. One recommendation was the need in future, at least in the very

    197
    advanced projects, to go in for collaborative projects with other European countries. It is much to the credit of the present Government that a number of these are coming along at an encouraging pace. The Jaguar is a firm project which is under way. We hope that the AFVG will materialise at an early date and will be the basis for a major project for the aircraft industry both of this country and of France.
    For my part, I accept that the F111K is an interim purchase until such time as the AFVG is produced. I do not think that we can place too much emphasis on the importance of the AFVG, not only for the R.A.F. and the other air forces which are likely to be purchasers of it, but also for our own aviation industry It would be exceedingly unfortunate for the British aviation industry if the AFVG did not go ahead, and I very much hope that very shortly we shall have an encouraging further report from the Government about this project. I noticed with pleasure the welcome assurance by the Minister of State for Defence that one of his principal objectives is to try to ensure that we have a viable, economic and competitive British aviation industry.
    This is the policy on which we base our actions and upon which I believe this industry can certainly make a very important contribution in both technological and export terms to our economy. But the AFVG is due to come into service only from 1973 onwards, and we need an interim type from 1969 to 1973–74. So this four or five year gap is particularly important. Is anyone suggesting that we can cover the period by the continued use of the Canberras and other aircraft which are already at the end of their useful life? We need the F111 to tide us over this period. The need has been shown. I must admit that I do not like the prospect of these large orders of American aircraft, but I am prepared to accept that this is necessary provided that the AFVG is firm and comes along from 1973 and onwards.
    I find the grounds for the Opposition attack typically unreal. The opening speech was quite removed from reality, and I am sure that the great majority of people outside would not be particularly interested in the arguments that
    198
    the right hon. Gentleman was deploying. At least there are those—some in this House—who question the overall defence decisions taken by the Government, and I think that their position has been made clear, but not in this case the position of the Opposition. All we had was a niggling exercise on minor points on which the Opposition spokesman did his best with an exceedingly bad brief. The reply by my right hon. Friend will, I think, prove the justice of the Government's case.
    I believe that the Opposition have tried to puff up a great debate about a sum which, on the figures of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest, will be only about £12 million to £13 million. I know that this is a lot of money, but I have to admit that in aircraft terms it is not a great deal. One wonders why the Opposition have not initiated debates on their Supply Days on the Ferranti affair and the Bristol-Siddeley affair. From those two items alone the total cost to the taxpayer in excess profits is about £8 million, not far short of the sum that was being questioned by the Opposition spokesmen.
    What of the Concord, a project which I happen to support, but one has to admit that its costs have escalated from £175 million to £500 million in research and development? Why no Supply Day debate on the escalation of those costs? One can only assure that the hypocrisy of the Opposition in looking round for some very weak stick with which to beat the Government knows no bounds.
    Mr. Cranley Onslow: Debates on the Concord have twice been initiated by the Opposition on the Consolidated Fund. We should welcome opportunities to debate it again, and at greater length.
    Mr. Howarth: That makes the point that I was trying to put, that one would have thought that, considering the amount of money involved in the escalation of the costs of the Concord, a Supply Day would have been devoted to it by the Opposition. The Opposition are complaining about a possible rise in the costs of the F111 amounting to about £12 million over the 50 aircraft. Yet they seem to be rather coy in coming forward in a debate for £325 million. I think

    199
    that somehow they have got their priorities wrong.
    I wish to comment on the complaint of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West about the alleged development problems of the F111. One has to admit that these are real. But it is not unusual for an advanced military aircraft to have development problems. Speaking from memory, I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Hunter had severe problems. I also understand that the Lightning had a severe problem with its engine. In the case of one of those aircraft, the firing of its guns at altitude was likely to put its engine out. All these things were eventually solved. It should not be surprising to anyone with any knowledge of the aviation industry to know that advanced military projects are bound to have problems. The F111, I have to admit, is going into completely new ground in having variable geometry. There is no comparable aircraft. That development is bound to introduce problems which could not have been foreseen.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop rose——
    Mr. Howarth: I have to sit down at 8.30, and I should like to finish within the next few minutes.
    On the question of development problems, I understand that even such an aircraft as the Belfast has had very severe drag problems, which have reduced its progress accordingly. One could go through a whole range of military aircraft and indicate that they have had severe development problems. It would be unusual if they did not have them.
    I should like to reinforce that point by quoting from the article from which the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) rather selectively gave us a paragraph. It is an article in Flight International of 30th March, 1967. It referred to the serious problems that had been encountered with the F111. At the end of the article, it seems to be saying that the engine manufacturers were confident that they could overcome these problems, that even with the excess weight and drag—which, I understand, have very largely been offset by aerodynamic improvements and weight reduction exercises—the F111K would satisfy Royal
    200
    Air Force requirements. The article states:
    "Even with excess weight and drag, the F111K will satisfy R.A.F. requirements and although it would naturally like the aeroplane improved as much as possible in this respect, the British Government will not press for improvements over and above the minimum required by the R.A.F., on the grounds that Britain would certainly be invited to share the necessary development costs. The engine and intake problems are, in any case, expected to be solved by the time the aircraft enters service. While the intake troubles could worry the U.S.A.F., which wants high-altitude manoeuvreability in the FlllA's secondary role, this is not likely to worry the R.A.F. unduly, since this part of the flight envelope will be little used."
    So the indications are that the problems will be cured, and that, even at worst, if there were still problems remaining when the aircraft came to be delivered to the Royal Air Force they would, in effect, meet the minimum R.A.F. requirements.
    My right hon. Friend commented upon the reconnaissance role of the F111. It is in this role that we would expect to see the F111 primarily used. I regard this as an expensive but very necessary insurance policy. While we may like to think that the world is inhabited by people who are always peaceful in intent, unfortunately, as we well know to our cost, this is not the case. This is where I differ from some of my hon. Friends who are pacifists and who oppose the whole idea of defence expenditure. There are unfortunately those in this world who seem hell-bent on involving themselves and others in warlike adventures.
    I recall that I was watching a television programme a month ago which showed the warlike preparations in Syria, where they are beginning to prepare in a military and psychological sense for a war which the present leaders of Syria are suggesting would be waged against the raiders. One was shown pictures of the equipment, unfortunately supplied by the Soviet Union. In these circumstances the need for such an insurance policy as a very sophisticated and long-range reconnaissance aircraft is obvious.
    I recognise that it is very difficult to be able to exchange across the Floor of the House full facts and figures. It is difficult, on the grounds of security, for my right hon. Friend to be able to give all the figures which would prove his case even

    201
    more successfully than he has done. This debate has once again proved the need for a specialist, or Select Committee, which could go into the problem of what we are discussing. I am sorry that the Select Committee for Science and Technology, of which I am a member, did not decide to investigate one of these aviation projects.
    If we could discuss this in Committee, in a non-partisan way, taking evidence from independent witnesses, we might be able to arrive at a more objective decision than is possible today. I hope that in the not too distant future we shall have a Committee investigating this sort of problem. In the meantime I would like to emphasise my confidence in the decisions which the Government have already taken, which I believe to be in the best interests of the nation.
    8.37 p.m.
    Mr. Robert Carr: When the Secretary of State opened his speech he began by saying some things about the styles of speaking of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest (Mr. Powell). I notice that he did not attempt any self-analysis of his own styles of speaking. It seems to us that he has three—he goes one better than my right hon. Friend. He has what we call his "laughing-it-off" style, and we are at least grateful that he spared us that, anyhow for most of the day. Secondly, he has his dignified, intellectually elevated, senatorial style, and I am glad to say that for much of his speech today that was the style which he adopted. Thirdly, he has his knockabout political circus style, appealing to the Left-wing to which he devoted the last part of his speech.
    It seemed to us, and I think to many other hon. Members, that it was rather a Pity that he should accuse people who question or attack the F111 of doing so for malicious or commercial motives. This is not true and, if it were, it certainly applies in no mean measure to what he and his other right hon. and hon. Friends did when they criticised the TSR2, in Opposition. The truth is that it is the job of the Opposition to probe and criticise, and it does not lie in the mouths of Ministers to make accusations of that kind.
    Whatever style the Secretary of State uses, he is certainly, as we saw today,
    202
    adept at dodging the point under debate. He certainly did not answer the questions and arguments, either implicit in the Motion or put forward by my right hon. Friend, which were closely related to the terms of the Motion. He took a long time about not answering them. He was very generous in giving way, for which we are always grateful, but we could not help having the rather base thought that perhaps he did not want to give his own back benchers too much time in the debate, with the probable exception of the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Robert Howarth), who will certainly be licensed next time.
    There is some truth in the fear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) said, the Secretary of State has been trying to put many balls in the air in order to distract the House and the country from the real trick. But he has not deceived or diverted us from the purpose of the Motion; and it is to the Motion that I want to return. I ask the Minister of State to reply directly to the terms of the Motion. It is a narrow Motion, and deliberately a narrow Motion. It does not attack the F111K as such. It attacks the Government for giving contradictory statements about the aircraft and asks for realistic statements now so that we know the full truth, or as much as security allows.
    May I run over some of the points to which we want an answer and perhaps make a few new points. One question raised in the debate by more than one hon. Member is the basic question of whether we need this plane at all in the context of what now seems likely to be the Government's defence policy in the 1970s—not of what that policy seemed to be a year ago, but of what it seems likely to be now.
    Although the Government have always maintained—and we do not dispute this—that the F111 could be used in European and other theatres, it is clear that the Government have been thinking about it principally in a Far Eastern context. This was made explicit by the Secretary of State for Defence and the then Foreign Secretary in last year's defence debate on 7th and 8th March. The Secretary of State said:
    "Essentially, most of these aircraft will be based in Singapore."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th March, 1966; Vol. 725, c. 2041.]

    203
    But, in view of the apparent recent trend in Government policy, shall we have such a role in the Far East in the 1970s? Shall we by then even have a Singapore base on which
    "Essentially, most of these aircraft will be based"?
    Is not this another example of the Government's actions and policy thinking being mutually contradictory? Is not this one of the contradictions which we seek in the Motion to have cleared up?
    If the Government intend to surrender our present role in the Far East, does not the F111 become redundant or at least unnecessary? It is not that it is unusable in the European role, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) said, unless we are to have it in much larger numbers for nuclear purposes, we cannot believe that it is necessary in the European role, and none of the other European countries seems to want the F111 for a European role. Therefore, why should we want this plane unless we are to maintain our present Far Eastern role? Will the Government make their policy clear?
    The Secretary of State today seemed to bring in a new thought about this matter. I think that he was suggesting that we should want the F111 in the Far East, even if we no longer had the Singapore base and similar bases, in order to support our allies in that area, particularly Australia and New Zealand. But if the real purpose of our F111s is to work in co-operation with the Australian Air Force, which will also have some F111s, should not the version of the F111 which we buy be the same as instead of different from the Australian version? Does it make sense for the Australian Air Force to have 24 F111s of one type and for us to have 50 F111s of another type if the main purpose of ours is to work with theirs? We cannot help wondering, therefore, whether this is not a bit of afterthought, of post hoc rationalisation.
    I pass now to another subject, the expected performance of the F111K. Here again there have been contradictory statements. At first, we were told in paragraph 10, page 11, of the 1966 Defence Review that
    204
    "The arrangements made by the United States Government with their manufacturers for their own aircraft will apply also to the aircraft we shall order and therefore will provide us with the same assurances as to specification and performance as will be insisted upon by the United States Government."
    Was not that seriously misleading the House in the light of the present position?
    As my right hon. Friend has reminded the House, on 16th November—about nine months after the Defence White Paper of last year—the Secretary of State said:
    "On the question of the operational requirement for the F111K, in all respects it is lower than the requirement for the aircraft ordered for the United States Government."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1966; Vol. 736, c. 423.]
    What is it to be? Unless one is to do extraordinary gymnastics, the words of those two statements are contradictory to any reasonable outsider listening to them.
    Then we have the recent speech in the United States Senate by Senator McClellan, in which he said, amongst other things:
    "The air force version"—
    please note, the Air Force version—
    "is, by admission of the Department of Defence, not militarily acceptable at this time."
    How does that square with the assurance which I have just quoted from last year's Defence White Paper? In view of this, how do the Government justify their action in so recently placing the order for the remaining 40 aircraft without waiting for clarification, as, for instance, the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) said that they should have done?
    There is another aspect of the same matter. Hitherto, the Secretary of State for Defence in defending his decision to buy the F111 has always stoutly maintained that the troubles with the aircraft were with the naval and strategic bomber version and not with the Air Force version and has gone on to say that since we were buying what was essentially the Air Force version, we had no reason to worry about those troubles.
    The Secretary of State will, no doubt, remember that he took that view strongly in, for example, a television programme last August in which he and I participated along with Senator McClellan from the United States. Is it not now clear that he misled us on that point, too? How do we square what he has

    205
    always said with the statement from Senator McClellan which I have just quoted?
    Another aspect of the Fill's performance about which we have had contradictory statements is the way in which it compares with the performance of the TSR2. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans and others have given chapter and verse for some of these contradictory statements. I should like again to ask some specific questions. Can we, if possible, have specific answers? Perhaps, if we are to have specific answers, it would be as well if the Minister of State were to listen to my questions.
    First, what are both the ferry and operational ranges now expected to be? If the Minister cannot give actual figures, can he give them as percentage figures of what the requirement was originally expected to be? Secondly, is it, or is it not, true that even with the present modifications, the F111 is still liable to stall or, if my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) is right, to surge when turning at high speed and high altitude?
    Thirdly, does the Nav-attack system really provide the same accuracy for the delivery of conventional weapons as did the TSR2's? Not simply does it give the basic minimum requirements, but does it give the same accuracy for the delivery of conventional weapons as the TSR2?
    Fourthly, can we be assured that the latest avionic systems in the F111K really provide the TSR2 standard of terrain following—again not just the minimum requirements, but is it as good in this respect as the TSR2?
    Another point which has come out today, is that of the unit cost. Here we have these two aspects, the ceiling price for the basic plane and the ceiling price for the R.A.F. modification of it. This is a point on which we have not yet received a satisfactory answer, because it has always been emphasised by the Government that the figure of £2·1 million was a maximum. We have been told that we might get it for less but that on no account should we have to pay more. At no point has any mention been made, until it slipped out in another place a few weeks ago, that there was any question of having to take into account United States money inflation. We now know that
    206
    that is so. What we still do not know is the nature of the formula which has been used. My right hon. Friend specifically asked that question and, presumably, the Secretary of State specifically ignored it. May we press it again?
    What is the nature of the clause in the contract which provides for the automatic changes in price according to the figure of inflation? Is it a standard 3 per cent. per year, as is the case with the Phantom, or is it an amount which is to be decided at periodic intervals by reference to some economic index in the United States? Is the price of the modification also subject to automatic uplift according to United States money inflation? Can we please be told that as well? Can we also be told the answer to another question which we have asked but which so far has been ignored, namely, why it was that the Secretary of State placed the final order for the remaining 40 of these planes without first having obtained an agreement about the ceiling price?
    May I remind the Government once again that, as late as 1st March, the Secretary of State told the House categorically that no contract would be placed until such a ceiling price had been agreed. What happened between 1st March and 1st April, and why did he not keep his promise?
    I turn quickly to another point about costs, namely the total programme costs. The Secretary of State gave us lots of figures about the total programme costs, many of them, conveniently for him, on quite a new basis which makes comparison impossible, at least at short notice. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) and others of my hon. Friends pointed out that the basis seemed to be a pretty funny one, at least on first hearing.
    One thing which I understood from it is that the dollar cost of the 10-year programme had risen by some £10 million. I understood that the overall cost of the 10-year programme had gone up from £280 million to £336 million but that, within that increase of £56 million, only £10 million was dollar cost. If I have that right, we are faced with a dollar cost of £270 million compared with £260 million originally given to the House; that is, about 750 million dollars instead of 725 million dollars. We should like

    207
    to know to what extent the estimated total programme costs which we have now been given make allowance for the substantial modifications to the F111 which are now known to be necessary.
    The Secretary of State told us that it contained a contingency allowance. We should like to know the sort of order of contingency allowance and if we can be reasonably sure that it will be adequate. To take one example, is it or is it not a fact that the original engines with which the planes will be supplied will cost about 450,000 dollars each, while the spare engines which will have to be bought as replacements during the 10-year period are likely to cost at least 610,000 dollars or possibly as much as 790,000 dollars each? If we get much escalation of that kind, there will have to be a big contingency allowance in the 10-year dollar costs programme to take account of it.
    I come to another important aspect, namely, the terms of the basic contract. The House was told that one of the critical factors in favour of the F111 was the date when we could receive delivery. This was clearly one of the reasons given for the cancellation of the TSR2—perhaps not the main reason, but certainly one of them. On 4th March, 1965, the Prime Minister told the House that the TSR2 could not be in service until 1968 at the earliest, and in this year's Defence White Paper we were informed:
    "We plan to have formed the first squadron of F111Ks in 1969."
    That will be a year later than the TSR2 would have come into service, and apparently that was thought to be too late.
    The Secretary of State told us this afternoon that he expects the delivery schedule for the first 10 to be kept, except for the first one which, we understand, will be somewhat delayed at our request. But what about the delivery schedule for the remaining 40? If there are such major modifications to be made as we hear about, some set-back in delivery is, to say the least, not impossible. One must, therefore, ask whether the Government insisted on the inclusion in the contract for the purchase of these planes of a penalty clause for late delivery. If they did not, why not?
    208
    Did the Government also insist on the insertion of a penalty clause if the planes as delivered fail to match up to their original specification? If not, why not? As we know, the Government are being extremely tough in insisting on penalty clauses applying to British sub-contractors for this and other planes which we are buying from the United States. If—and we agree that this should be done—they are insisting on penalty clauses for British sub-contractors, we must demand that the Government include similar penalty clauses in their contracts with the American Government and American companies. We must be told whether the Government have done this.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton raised the question of the terms of the original contract in respect of any replacement aircraft that may be needed. I am not referring to any possible future large buy but to the aircraft we might have to buy because some of our original 50 may unfortunately go out of service through crashes or other reasons. Will such replacement aircraft be subject to the same ceiling?
    Another important matter which arose in the course of an exchange between the Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West was where exactly we stand on the production line with this aircraft; in other words, whether we are to be the guinea-pigs. If we are, then with a plane of this kind it seems likely that it will be an expensive process. If we are not, and if we are buying the planes off the peg, can we be given an idea of how many production planes there will be and which countries will be getting them coming off the line ahead of us?
    I will make two points in conclusion. The first is about payment for these planes. We have understood from the beginning of this affair that the payment of the dollar content is to be by credit and the House has already passed legislation in that connection. We want to know whether that line of credit will be increased to take account of the increase in dollar costs which we already know or which may subsequently arise. Will the line of credit be increased or will we have to pay any extra dollar cost in cash, as it were?
    Secondly, closely linked with the payment for these planes and the economic

    209
    burden on our balance of payments was the claim by the Government that the total dollar cost would be fully covered by their much vaunted dollar offset agreement. We were told in the defence debate last year by the then Minister of Aviation that 325 million dollars would be provided by direct sales of equipment to the United States and another four hundred million dollars by sales to third parties. Will that total dollar offset be increased in line with American money inflation? Does the dollar offset agreement make that sort of allowance? If it does, how much is in the direct category and how much in the third-country category?
    As to the third-country category, I would ask particularly about the Saudi Arabian deal. The Minister of State must be very conscious of that deal. Never has a Minister been so blatantly carted by a senior colleague as the Minister of State was carted over the Saudi Arabian deal. He played a prominent part in obtaining the Saudi Arabian order before the F111 decision was taken, and in December, 1965 he assured the House that there was no connection of any kind between the Saudi Arabian order of which he was telling us and the F1ll deal. We subsequently discovered to the contrary.
    What is the position now? In May, 1966, the Secretary of State told us that the Saudi Arabian deal will be worth about £100 million, or 280 million dollars, out of the third-country section of the offset agreement. On that occasion he said:
    "… it will leave a very substantial amount still to be covered by further collaborative sales to third countries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1966; Vol. 728, c. 477.]
    Is that still really the case, or has the Saudi Arabian deal now absorbed all the third-country element in the dollar offset agreement? This order, which we got long before we ever placed the F111 order and which the Minister of State told us had no connection with it—was that statement another piece of deception of the House and of the country?
    It is interesting to see hon. Members opposite laughing at these questions. I suppose that, in a sense, the Secretary of State and others of his right hon. and hon. Friends can laugh at the moment, because they have bought all these planes
    210
    on the never-never system, and it will not be they individually, or their Government, who will have to pick up the bill, but us. I suppose, therefore, that they can laugh at the moment.
    For the last two and a half years we have lived in an Alice-in-Wonderland world of defence policy. We have had all the up-to-date jargon—yes, that is there all right. Ministers clearly took time off to go to one-day schools of management studies and tried to blind us all with science. But what have we had in practice? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has rightly pointed out in a series of debates, we have had a lot of decisions taken ad hoc without reference to any comprehensive framework of policy. In fact, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said earlier, we have had the Prime Minister's favourite game of keeping all the options open, under a smokescreen of scientific jargon.
    Nowhere is that more clear than in the Government's aircraft programme. They cancelled the TSR2, and they are now seeking to replace it with two planes—the F111 and the AFVG. As was said by the hon. Member for Coventry, North, the F111 is doubtful as to performance and uncertain as to role. The AFVG is, alas, still very much in doubt. We hope that these doubts can be removed, but we cannot burke the fact that the doubts are still very much there.
    In spite of the specious figure given by the Secretary of State earlier, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) that even if both of these planes come off, the combined cost of the F111 purchase and programme and the AFVG development and purchase programme, plus the frustrated expenditure on the TSR2, will at the end of the day be at least as great as, if not greater than, the cost had the Government gone ahead with the TSR2.
    If either the F111 or the AFVG do not come off, what then? What do the Government think will happen then in cost and defence capability? Do we buy more F111s? If so, at what price? That is a pretty gloomy prospect on the horizon. Let us hope that it is not one of those small clouds that grow into a big cloud. If not that, and if anything happens to the AFVG, do We

    211
    make an entirely British variable geometry plane and, if we do, at what cost?
    This debate has exposed, as it was meant to expose, a spoof by the Government. The right hon. Gentleman can laugh now, but I fear that it will eventually be exposed as a spoof which has been attempted to cover up a monstrous folly.
    9.0 p.m.
    The Minister of State, Ministry of Technology (Mr. John Stonehouse): At the end of this debate I am very surprised indeed that the Opposition should have wasted one of their Supply Days to put down a Motion of this character. It reveals what a very weak case they have against the Government and how little of a case they have against my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, if it is only on this very narrow point that they set up this great attack on my right hon. Friend. As the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) said in his excellent and short intervention, my right hon. Friend has been bold and has done many good things. He has done excellent service to the House and to the country today by his devastatingly brilliant speech in which he absolutely demolished the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell).
    The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West is a specialist in pedantic hair-splitting. He combines this with a singular love of simple English. He will never call a spade a spade if he can call it a manually operated excavator. Today he has added to his skill a profound grasp of faulty economics. We should be grateful to him for one thing. At least he has reduced the level of his attack on the F111 target. In an attack on 26th April last year he called the F111 deal "hollow". He said:
    "It is hollow in its financial arrangements. It is hollow in its military reasoning."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1966; Vol. 727, c. 657.]
    It is significant that the right hon. Gentleman did not repeat those allegations today because, of course, such allegations cannot possibly be justified and the speech of my right hon. Friend has shown beyond any doubt what an ex-
    212
    cellent arrangement the F111 contract is and how it meets the requirements of the R.A.F.
    The right hon. Gentleman confined his attack to quibbling about details. He did not attempt to spell out any alternative policies. Perhaps he is intelligent enough to realise that his right hon. Friends— he was not in a Department directly responsible—left some very sinister skeletons in the cupboard for us to find. As my right hon. Friend has pointed out only too clearly the escalation in the TSR2 costs was never revealed by hon. Members opposite. It was left for my right hon. Friend to pick out all the sinister facts.
    There have been a number of questions raised during the debate and I shall do my best to reply to them. First, the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) asked about the Saudi Arabian deal and the offset arrangements. I am grateful to him for what he said about the part I played in that particular deal. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In my talks in the United States with Mr. Henry Kuss, when I secured the agreement of the Americans to a joint proposal being made to the Saudis, there was no reference to, or any discussion on, any proposed F111 buy. But it was reasonable, bearing in mind the other expenditure of the United States in this country for its forces, for the Saudi Arabian deal to be included in the offset arrangement for third party sales.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically whether there was allowance for other sales to take place. Of course there is. We hope to have several more of these collaborative deals. The Saudi deal is just an example of what we can achieve in co-operation with our American friends. A deal of this character can open up wider opportunities which are not subject to the offset arrangements. We can have, and we have already had, deals in Saudi Arabia which are additional to the offset arrangement but which we would never have got if we had not had this joint Anglo-American proposal to the Saudis. They are not included in the offset arrangement.
    Mr. R. Carr: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that these additions to our original contract are specifically excluded from the dollar offset calculations?
    Mr. Stonehouse: There are additions. I am not authorised to give the details of these today, but I can assure the House that there are additions, and very substantial ones indeed, which are not included in the offset arrangements.
    I am sure that the House will agree that when we achieve a substantial order of this character, the biggest single order which we have achieved in our history, it provides an umbrella for other of our manufacturers and exporters to get into this market and sell other products. This is exactly what we are doing. It has also established in the Middle East a better climate for our exporters generally, and I believe that in other countries substantial successes will be achieved as a result of this better climate being established.
    Mr. Edelman: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence made a great show earlier in the day of the fact that all his policies were tending towards disarmament. How does my hon. Friend square that with his vigorous attempts to expand the sales of arms to the Middle East?
    Mr. Storehouse: There is no doubt that these countries are buying arms from somewhere. It is only right that we should give opportunities to our industrialists to sell in this part of the world as well. [Laughter.] I cannot understand why right hon. Members opposite laugh at this, as so many of them have applauded such attempts to secure these sales. We are not considering only military sales here. Opportunities have been opened up for exports of civil products as well.
    The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West asked whether the wage/material escalation clause in the agreement with the United States related to the F111 was calculated by a general formula or whether it was specifically related to the contractor's expenditure on the F111 programme itself. The escalation clause applies to the expenditure of the contractor. This is also a clear answer to the right hon. Member for Mitcham. It would be a mistake, though, for right hon. Members opposite to overestimate the importance and effect of the escalation clause. This is an inescapable condition in a long-term contract of this character. Wages and materials price
    214
    increases are bound to have applied in any such contract, but any calculations of this character could be only marginal.
    Mr. Powell: Does the hon. Gentleman man estimate that this will result in a higher or a lower escalation than the 3 per cent. per annum agreement applying to the Phantom?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I estimate that it will be about the same.
    The right hon. Gentleman referred also to the strengthened undercarriage and asked why we had done this. The fact that we have adopted this undercarriage has been known to the House for a long time. The United States Strategic Air Command wants the strengthened undercarriage for its version of the aircraft, the FB1 11, and it was given to us last year as an option. We decided to take advantage of the possibility because it enables the Royal Air Force to make the maximum use of the aircraft's capabilities from semi-prepared airfields to take off with bigger bomb loads.
    Several questions were raised by the right hon. Member for Mitcham in comparing the performance of the F111 with the proposed performance of the TSR2. First, the ferry range is 20 per cent, better than the ferry range of the TSR2. Second, the question of engine surging: as my right hon. Friend has said, there are still engine matching problems which, we believe, will be solved in the United States because of the tremendous resources being put behind the programme there, but we are assured that the achievement of the F111 development so far meets the basic and minimum requirements of the Royal Air Force.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked about the Nav-attack system. This is fully equivalent to that specified for the TSR2. Next, he asked about the terrain-following capability. This equipment has already been functioning very successfully throughout the development programme, and its performance is equivalent to, and in some respects better than, that specified for the TSR2.
    There is no doubt that in the F111 we are obtaining an aircraft for the R.A.F. which meets its needs and requirements in all major respects. A further advantage which the House will recognise is that, as this aircraft is to go into squadron

    215
    service in both America and Australia before the first deliveries to the R.A.F. take place, we shall be more than satisfied that the development problems of the aircraft are solved before the Royal Air Force is flying it.
    Furthermore, the great advantage of this agreement as against the TSR2 arrangement is that we have here a ceiling price, subject, of course, to an escalation clause, which will give us a final basic cost of £2½ million per aircraft. The arrangement for the TSR2 was quite dissimilar because the commitment was unlimited. Although we have estimated what the cost of developing and producing the TSR2 might have been, it could have been very much more even than that. For the F111, however, we have a unique agreement with the United States, the best type of agreement for purchasing equipment from the United States that this country has ever achieved. If right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they started negotiating for buying equipment from the United States, had concentrated their attention on obtaining this type of agreement, perhaps the Exchequer would have been saved a great deal of money and should have saved a great deal of time as well.
    Mr. Lubbock: Whatever may be said now, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force, who is sitting on the Front Bench beside the hon. Gentleman, said on 14th March:
    "The cost of the F111 is a fixed-cost price of £2·1 million".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1967; Vol. 743, c. 245.]
    Does not that give the impression that there was no adjustment to be made for increasing costs of wages and materials and the rest?
    Mr. Stonehouse: The right hon. Member for Mitcham made play of that point, but all the references here were to the basic unit cost, and it has been made quite clear that there were additions to the basic unit price. I do not think that the House can deny that the position has been made absolutely clear to it, and that we were aiming to obtain an aircraft at £2½ million at 1965 prices which will entirely meet the points that have been made by my right hon. Friend in past months. The third point about the agreement which I am sure the House will
    216
    applaud is that it is cost effective. Whereas the TSR2 was an extraordinarily expensive programme, in this one we have, as my right hon. Friend said, a saving over 15 years of £700 million.
    Those three points demonstrate the value of the F111 contract. Of course, hon. Members may suggest that there are disadvantages in the arrangement. They may suggest that it may adversely affect the United Kingdom aircraft industry, which is one of the points the right hon. Member for Mitcham put forward in a speech in December, 1965, to which I shall refer in a few minutes.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Could the Minister tell us just how much he has put in the figure of £700 million for 15 years for the AFVG production cost and unit cost?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I think that it would be unwise to be drawn on specific figures. But, as my right hon. Friend said, the total research and development cost will be about £150 million, and there will be an addition to that of an amount for the production of these aircraft. [HON. MEMBERS: "How much?"] I am not in a position to reveal that, as the hon. Gentleman knows only too well. He asked for a specific figure, but when he was one of the Ministers responsible when his party were in power his Government never provided figures of that character, and so hon. Members opposite are not entitled to ask for them now.
    The aircraft industry in Britain is in a stronger position now than it has been in for many years.
    Mr. R. Carr: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the question of contracts, could he tell us about the penalty clauses in the United States contract, about which I particularly asked, and also explain why, contrary to what was said on 1st March, the order was made before the ceiling price had been agreed?
    Mr. Stonehouse: There is no question of Her Majesty's Government accepting the delivery of these aircraft unless they are up to our requirements. My right hon. Friend has made that clear. We still have to negotiate the details of the supplemental ceiling price, but I am sure that it will provide for a figure that will be fully consistent with the assurances

    217
    that have been provided to the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the penalty clauses?"] The question of penalty clauses does not arise, because the assurances we have had on the delivery of these aircraft fully assure us that our requirements will be met. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
    The questions of doubt about the buying of the F111 and the cancellation of the TSR2 are related to their effect on the British aircraft industry, but the British aircraft industry is now in a stronger state than it has been in for many years. If we look at any of the vital statistics, the House will agree that that is true. As hon. Members who are in contact with the aircraft industry are only too well aware, even the leaders in the industry are recognising the great strength it has achieved in the past year or so. The total export figure has increased from £107 million in 1964 to £153 million in 1965, and to no less than £229 million in 1966, a figure of which we can really be proud. One of the most significant facts in the total output figures of the industry in 1966 is that our production of home military aircraft has reduced from the figure of £330 million in 1965 to £315 million in 1966, but our production of civil and export aircraft has increased from £233 million in 1965 to £275 million in 1966. This is the direction we want the British aircraft industry to go in meeting civil demand and export demand, and not to chase after the vain glorious objective of right hon. and hon. Members opposite of having an independent military aircraft production.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Gentleman has referred to the exports of over £200 million achieved by the industry in 1966. What percentage of those orders were placed after the present Government came to power?
    Mr. Stonehouse: I cannot give the figures off the cuff. But right hon. and hon. Members opposite, including the hon. Gentleman himself, know very well that many of the orders for aircraft exported in 1966 were obtained in 1965, including exports to the Middle East and the United States. They know also that the part that the Government have been playing in assisting the development of the aircraft industry's export programme
    218
    has been extremely substantial. Hon. Members in touch with the industry know it only too well because they have applauded what we have done.
    I will give two examples. We have increased the credit terms for jet aircraft to ten years. This has assisted the export of the BAC111, which is doing extremely well, and the British Aircraft Corporation itself has acknowledged the assistance the Government have given.
    We have made a new decision which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has authorised me to announce tonight. It is in relation to the turbo-prop aircraft of the Hawker Siddeley 748 and the Handley Page Herald type. Credit terms are being extended from five to eight years, which will open up a wonderful opportunity for the producers of this type of aircraft. We estimate that the market for these aircraft is about 700 with a total value of about £200 million. So the potential here is very considerable for our aircraft producers. These are only two examples of the assistance the Government are giving to our aircraft exports in helping to achieve the sort of figures I have given.
    Furthermore, from right hon. and hon. Members opposite, when the TSR2 was cancelled, we had allegations that the industry was being truncated and undermined. In fact, the number employed in the industry on average in 1966 was 257,000 as against 268,000 in 1964, and the latest available figure—the February figure—is 262,000. This does not sound to me like a truncated and debilitated industry. The industry is strong. It is successful. It is making a very substantial contribution to the British export drive, but if we had carried on with the TSR2 we would not have been able to achieve the same figures in export performance.
    It is significant to note that the work load of the industry, according to the confidential returns at our disposal, shows that there is now more work available than there was at the end of 1964. All these statistics show that the industry is not undermined and is not unsuccessful. With the guidance of the Government, it is doing an extremely good job for Britain.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Stonehouse: I have very little time.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. There is too much noise from the Opposition and too much noise from the Government side.
    Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: On a point of order. Will the hon. Gentleman say what relation this has to the Motion? I have been here throughout the debate and the hon. Gentleman is not answering the questions which have been put to him.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
    Mr. Stonehouse: The relevance to the Motion is very important. When the right hon. Member for Mitcham spoke on 13th December, 1965, he said that if the Government decided to choose the F1ll there would be a number of more or less opposite disadvantages. He went on:
    "First, it would leave a gaping void in the order load of the British industry."
    The right hon. Gentleman was absolutely wrong about that.
    "Secondly, it would, in our view, strike a serious blow to confidence in Europe in the fruitfulness of co-operation with this country in aircraft …".
    That, of course, was absolute rubbish. We have a very successful agreement for producing the Jaguar with the French, and the helicopter programme is going extremely well. We are also discussing with them in detail the AFVG programme, which we are confident will be a great success. Despite the escalation in costs compared with the estimates which right hon. Gentlemen opposite gave to the House, Concord is going extremely well. Furthermore, Europeans have come to us with proposals for collaboration, for instance, with the airbus, which show that they have confidence about co-operating with us, and we hope to make that confidence a reality in practical co-operation.
    The right hon. Gentleman also said:
    "Thirdly … it would obviously add enormously to our balance of payments problems
    …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1965; Vol. 722, c. 980.]
    That, of course, was utterly incorrect. The balance of payments cost of the F111 is being covered by the offset agreement. We have the offset on third country sales and we have the offset on sales to the United States which right hon. Gentlemen opposite, for instance, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West on 7th March, dismiss. The offset arrangements for sales to the United States are going extremely well. We have already achieved orders to the value of 130 million dollars in sales to the United States.
    But it is not only a matter of meeting the Fl11 offset costs, because for the first time our manufacturers are, for instance, on the head-up display equipment, getting a foot in the door in the United States. They are working out collaborative programmes with American producers to meet the requirements of the Department of Defence and they are confident that even after the F111 offset agreement has been completely finalised and concluded, these arrangements will stand the test of time. This entry into the American industry could have very substantial and beneficial effects for producers of components in Britain.
    We have therefore already achieved a substantial part of the offset arrangements in direct sales to the United States and we are currently considering with the United States Department of Defense several other proposals, including the BAC111, the HS125 and the Handley-Page Jet Stream and we hope that one or two of these will be acceptable to the United States.
    I hope that the House will agree that this is a very ill-advised Motion. My right hon. Friend has completely abolished any case which the Opposition may have had and so we throw back into their faces their false argument, their false facts and their false philosophy on which the Motion was based, and with confidence I ask the House to reject it.
    Question put:—
    The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 292.

    Division No. 329.]

    AYES

    [9.30 p.m.

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Baker, W. H. K.

    Bell, Ronald

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Balniel, Lord

    Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

    Astor, John

    Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

    Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

    Batsford, Brian

    Berry, Hn. Anthony

    Awdry, Daniel

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Biffen, John

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Murton, Oscar

    Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

    Gurden, Harold

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Neave, Airey

    Blaker, Peter

    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Body, Richard

    Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    Nott, John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Onslow, Cranley

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Braine, Bernard

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

    Brewis, John

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. Sir Walter

    Hastings, Stephen

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Hawkins, Paul

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Bruce-Gardyne, J.

    Hay, John

    Pardoe, John

    Bryan, Paul

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

    Buchanan Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

    Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Peel, John

    Buck, Antony (Colchester)

    Heseltine, Michael

    Percival, Ian

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Hill, J. E. B.

    Peyton, John

    Burden, F. A.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Campbell, Gordon

    Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Pink, R. Bonner

    Carlisle, Mark

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Pounder, Rafton

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Holland, Philip

    Powell, Rt. Hn, J. Enoch

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Hooson, Emlyn

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Hordern, Peter

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hunt, John

    Pym, Francis

    Clark, Henry

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Clegg, Walter

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Cooke, Robert

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

    Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Cordle, John

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Corfield, F. V.

    Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

    Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

    Costain, A. P.

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Robson Brown, Sir William

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

    Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

    Crawley, Aidan

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Crouch, David

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Royle, Anthony

    Crowder, F. P.

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Kimball, Marcus

    St. John-Stevas, Norman

    Currie, G. B. H.

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Kirk, Peter

    Scott, Nicholas

    Dance, James

    Kitson, Timothy

    Sharpies, Richard

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Lambton, Viscount

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Smith, John

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Stainton, Keith

    Dodds-Parker, Douglas

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Stodart, Anthony

    Doughty, Charles

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

    Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoff rey (Sut'nC'dfield)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Tapsell, Peter

    du Cann, Rt, Hn. Edward

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Eden, Sir John

    Longden, Gilbert

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Loveys, W. H.

    Teeling, Sir William

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Lubbock, Eric

    Temple, John M.

    Eyre, Reginald

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Farr, John

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

    Tilney, John

    Fisher, Nigel

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    McMaster, Stanley

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Fortescue, Tim

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Vickers, Dame Joan

    Foster, Sir John

    Maddan, Martin

    Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

    Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

    Maginnis, John E.

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

    Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Marten, Neil

    Walters, Dennis

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Maude, Angus

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

    Webster, David

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Mawby, Ray

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Goodhart, Philip

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Goodhew, Victor

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Gower, Raymond

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Grant, Anthony

    Monro, Hector

    Wylie, N. R.

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

    Younger, Hn. George

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Grieve, Percy

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Mr. R. W. Elliott and Mr. More.

    NOES

    Albu, Austen

    Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

    Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

    Bence, Cyril

    Alldritt, Walter

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

    Anderson, Donald

    Bagler, Gordon A. T.

    Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

    Archer, Peter

    Barnes, Michael

    Binns, John

    Armstrong, Ernest

    Barnett, Joel

    Bishop, E. S.

    Ashley, Jack

    Beaney, Alan

    Blackburn, F.

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Harper, Joseph

    Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Booth, Albert

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Murray, Albert

    Boston, Terence

    Haseldine, Norman

    Newens, Stan

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. Herbert

    Hattersley, Roy

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Boyden, James

    Hazell, Bert

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip(Derby, S.)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

    Oakes, Gordon

    Bradley, Tom

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Ogden, Eric

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Henig, Stanley

    O'Malley, Brian

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

    Oram, Albert E.

    Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

    Hilton, W. S.

    Orbach, Maurice

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W)

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Orme, Stanley

    Brown, R. w. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

    Hooley, Frank

    Oswald, Thomas

    Buchan, Norman

    Horner, John

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Paget, R. T.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Palmer, Arthur

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

    Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

    Cant, R. B.

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Park, Trevor

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Howie, W.

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

    Huckfield, L.

    Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

    Chapman, Donald

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Coe, Denis

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Coleman, Donald

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

    Concannon, J. D.

    Hunter, Adam

    Pentland, Norman

    Conlan, Bernard

    Hynd, John

    Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Cronin, John

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Randall, Harry

    Dalyell, Tam

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

    Rankin, John

    Darling, Rt. Hn. George

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Rees, Merlyn

    Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Reynolds, G. W.

    Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

    Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Richard, Ivor

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Jones, T. A. (Rhondda West)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

    Kelley, Richard

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    de Freitas, Rt. Hon. Sir Geoffrey

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth(St.P'c'as)

    Dell, Edmund

    Lawson, George

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

    Dempsey, James

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Rodgers, William (Stockton)

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Ledger, Ron

    Roebuck, Roy

    Dobson, Ray

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Doig, Peter

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Rose, Paul

    Driberg, Tom

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Ross, Rt. Hn. William

    Dunnett, Jack

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Ryan, John

    Eadie, Alex

    Lomas, Kenneth

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Edelman, Maurice

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Sheldon, Robert

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford. E.)

    Shore, Peter (Stepney)

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Ellis, John

    McBride, Neil

    Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton, N. E.)

    English, Michael

    MacColl, James

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Ennals, David

    MacDermot, Niall

    Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

    Ensor, David

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S. w.)

    McGuire, Michael

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Slater, Joseph

    Faulds, Andrew

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Snow, Julian

    Finch, Harold

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Stonehouse, John

    Floud, Bernard

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

    Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

    Macpherson, Malcolm

    Swain, Thomas

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

    Swingler, Stephen

    Ford, Ben

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    Symonds, J. B.

    Forrester, John

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Taverne, Dick

    Fowler, Gerry

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

    Freeson, Reginald

    Manuel, Archie

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Mapp, Charles

    Thornton, Ernest

    Gardner, Tony

    Marquand, David

    Tinn, James

    Garrett, W. E.

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Tomney, Frank

    Ginsburg, David

    Mason, Roy

    Tuck, Raphael

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Urwin, T. W.

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mellish, Robert

    Vartey, Eric G.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Gregory, Arnold

    Mikardo, Ian

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Millan, Bruce

    Wallace, George

    Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

    Molloy, William

    Watkins, David (Consett)

    Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

    Moonman, Eric

    Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

    Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Wellbeloved, James

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Whitaker, Ben

    Hamling, William

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Hannan, William

    Moyle, Roland

    Whitlock, William

    Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Woof, Robert

    Wilkins, w. A.

    Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

    Wyatt, Woodrow

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

    Yates, Victor

    Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

    Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Winnick, David

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

    Mr. Grey and Mr. Fitch.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Ordered,
    That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Finance Bills may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Healey.]

FINANCE BILLS
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [26th April],
That, during the remainder of the Session, where, in respect of a bill for imposing, renewing, varying or repealing any charge upon the people, either—

(a) Mr. Speaker has been informed that no general agreement to allot a specified number of days or portions of days to the consideration of the Bill in Committee or on report has been reached, or

(b) any general agreement of which Mr. Speaker has been informed is, in the opinion of a Minister of the Crown, working ineffectively,

a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown that the Business Committee shall make recommendations to the House as to the number of days or portions of days to be allotted to the consideration of the bill in committee, on report or on third reading, and as to the time by which proceedings on any parts into which they may divide the bill shall be brought to a conclusion in committee or on report and any further recommendations which may in their opinion be necessary to ensure the bringing to a conclusion of the proceedings on the parts of the bill allotted to those days or portions of days; and the question on such a motion shall be put not more than two hours after the commencement of proceedings thereon;
That for the purposes of this Order the Business Committee shall consist of the Chairmen's Panel together with not more than five other Members to be nominated by Mr. Speaker:
That, when the Business Committee shall have reported the resolution or resolutions containing their recommendations to the House, the provisions of sub-paragraph (c) of Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) shall apply to the proceedings on any motions for the consideration of such report and on the consideration of the said report:—
Question again proposed.
Mr. Speaker: I believe that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett) was in possession of the House.
9.43 p.m.
Dr. Reginald Bennett: As I was saying, when I was bluntly interrupted on the previous occasion, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House argues cogently and closely, but not always from the soundest of premises. Although he was at his most persuasive last Wednesday, he put up some thoroughly bad propositions. At the moment of interruption—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order, will hon. Gentlemen leave the Chamber quietly?
Dr. Bennett: At the moment of interruption, I was referring to his words in c. 1517:
"We agreed that we should have voluntary agreements. We are both agreed that that would make progress. That is all agreed between the two sides."
Later at c. 1519 he said:
"… one of the ways of getting good sense … was to get agreement before the Bill was discussed and to get it firmly so that we would know where we were."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1967; Vol. 745, c. 1517–19.]
In my view, this is to hand over the Opposition, literally gagged and morally bound, to the mercies of the Government. This would lead to two abuses. First, it would lead to an increase, if that were possible, in Ministerial arrogance or intransigence, or even in getting away with ignorance. Ministers know that they cannot get away with this now, because if they try—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is impossible for an hon. Gentleman to address the House against a background of sustained conversations.
Dr. Bennett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker: If there is a predetermined timetable, it is possible for Ministers to stonewall until the time runs out. I believe that the Opposition must have a sanction against Ministers who do this.
My second objection is that it is possible, once a timetable has been imposed, for the Opposition largely to be shut out by Government back benchers. My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) mentioned filibustering the other day by Government back benchers. Even on Wednesday morning sittings the Government side of the House consumed

229
more time than the Opposition in discussing this Guillotine Motion. That is nothing to what they would do if the proceedings were gagged. All that would be necessary would be for the Patronage Secretary to say, "O.K., boys—move in", or just remove any natural curb which we know commonly exists on Government back benchers and then all the calculations are torpedoed, whether by design or by the natural prolixity of the Socialists.
Sir Douglas Glover: Would my hon. Friend give way?
Dr. Bennett: Certainly.
Sir D. Glover: In the debate which has just finished, Members on the Government side of the House took over 45 minutes more than the Opposition.
Dr. Bennett: That is one of the intentions or ideas which may underline the introduction of this Motion by the Government.
The Leader of the House recognises this possibility. On Wednesday he said:
"If Government back benchers were to abuse the rights which they would obtain via this sanction, they would more effectively destroy this than any reserve powers. If Government back benchers were to filibuster on the ground that they now have the chance, they would destroy this agreement in a year, and the Opposition—rightly so—would not give it to us again."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1967; Vol. 745, c. 1520.]
That is absolutely right.
This sort of agreement which gives carte blanche is fatal. Therefore, I cannot accept it. An agreed timetable can be fixed only just before the Amendments are discussed and after all the Amendments and new Clauses have been handed in. Within 24 hours of the debate is the earliest at which an agreed timetable can be fixed. This is approximately the state of affairs in the agreed ad hoc arrangements which actually do take place nowadays. Once the timetable had been accepted, it would govern the selection rather than the selection governing the timetable. This is the reverse of what is desirable.
The Motion would be infinitely more acceptable if the Amendments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) were accepted. If they were not accepted, the
230
Motion would be hopeless. If we were to accept this Motion I believe that we would betray our colleagues, and, furthermore, we would betray future Oppositions. There are many brash young men opposite, no doubt, who have been here a year who would like to see us shut out. They will not be here at the time of the next Government. Their seats are already forfeit. It is their survivors who will be the sufferers from their high-handedness.
No doubt the right hon. Gentleman intends to use his steamroller to force the Motion upon us, although he said on Wednesday:
"I would not vote for this Motion if I thought that in any way it reduced the ultimate power of the Opposition."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April 1967; Vol. 745, c. 1518.]
Surely the right hon. Gentleman can see that it grossly reduces our power. I ask him to live up to his word. I somehow do not believe that he will. He can best be described as being like the character of Lewis Carroll in the Mouse's Tale:
"' I'll be judge, I'll be jury ', said cunning old Fury;
'I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.'"
9.50 p.m.
Mr. John Peyton: I am extremely glad to have caught your eye, Mr. Speaker. I sought to do so the other day, but my contribution to the debate was somewhat postponed by what I can only describe as a flush of Privy Councillors, who, having rights that I do not enjoy, preceded me in the discussion.
I want ot say how impressed I was the other day by the Leader of the House, who was at his most polite and, therefore, his most persuasive and his most urbane. The threat in what he had to say appeared only rather late on in his speech. I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not personally fancy at all this kind of dilettante dabbling with our procedures which are designed for certain purposes. We have the example of the morning sittings, which have become semi-secret affairs from which large numbers of the public who would like to get into the Gallery are excluded because of staff difficulties. The whole atmosphere of those morning sittings is one which we should not encourage.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): I hope that the hon. Member will not say that, because I have frequently asked the Serjeant at Arms for the facts, and I have had to repeat more than once that although there have been occasions in the mornings—perhaps one or two—when some of the public have been excluded, on practically every morning there is plenty of room. I think that it would deter people from coming in if the impression were to be given that there was not room in the morning for those of the public who wished to attend.
Mr. Peyton: I do not want to go on with it, but there is a genuine difference of opinion that many people are not able to get in while there are empty seats in the Gallery.
Mr. Crossman Mr. Crossman rose ——
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a digression from the debate. I hope that it will not be pursued.
Mr. Crossman: It is important, when statements are made about the situation in the Gallery, to make it clear that the Serjeant at Arms is prepared to give to the hon. Member the precise figures for any morning to indicate whether he is right or wrong. I hope that he will look at them.
Mr. Peyton: If the right hon. Gentleman says that, of course I will look at the figures with great pleasure.
The other day, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that in putting forward the Motion the Government were making a big concession. Then he produced the argument that we should seek to make a better impression outside. I am sure that this is desirable. Equally, however, I do not believe that our procedure should be entirely dominated by what the public feel about any manoeuvre that is undertaken here.
The right hon. Gentleman also referred to this as simply a sessional experiment. I believe that this is the worst year in which to conduct a sessional experiment. We have for once a fairly innocent and innocuous Finance Bill, but the memories of those of us on this side of the House do not die quite as
232
quickly as that. We still recall a Finance Bill which contained the birth of the Corporation Tax and of the Selective Employment Tax. We do not feel any assurance that horrors of that sort will not be repeated in future. If they are, we shall want a certain amount of time. I, for one, am doubtful whether one can ever rely upon Ministers to feel any great sympathy with the desires of Opposition back-benchers in such a contingency.
The right hon. Gentleman also referred to what he called a voluntary agreement backed by safeguards. That was in the second debate. In the previous debate, he had talked about a voluntary agreement backed by reserve powers. On the second occasion, the stick of reserve powers had been hidden decently under his coat and he did not use such language again. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), however, discerned the threat quickly. He, in his unrecognisable capacity of Little Red Riding Hood, was quick to see the long teeth of this apparently amiable old lady who was introducing quite innocuous proposals.
The whole House, and cerainly we who sit on the back benches of the Opposition side, are grateful to my right hon. Friend for his perception. The right hon. Gentleman used a number of slightly veiled threats. He said that we would see whether my right hon. Friend pursued his very dangerous and extreme action of challenging a balanced compromise put forward unanimously by a Select Committee. On that occasion, the right hon. Gentleman praised the Select Committee to the skies. However, I cannot help feeling that the Select Committee allowed itself to be outmanoeuvred and bamboozled by the Government, and, in particular, by the wiles of the Chief Secretary.
As I see it, the Select Committee made certain proposals which, in their wisdom, the Government turned down. According to the right hon. Gentleman's account, the Select Committee then said to the Government, "What would you do?", thereby exposing itself to a mass of ingenuity. The Government were not slow to take their opportunity, and the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon.

233
and hon. Friends put forward this proposal which the Select Committee swallowed whole. I, for one, do not support it.
The right hon. Gentleman prayed in aid the fact that the Front Benches agreed with one another. There are some on this side of the House who do not always see in a matter which is the subject of agreement between Front Benches something which is ultimately and finally blessed by heaven. We tend to regard such matters with grave suspicion, and when the right hon. Gentleman says that back bench hon. Members opposite also agree, there is nothing remarkable in that. What would be remarkable is if some of those same hon. Members agreed with this proposal in the future when they are sitting on this side of the House. That would be entirely different.
There is no reason why my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench should worry about it. The only people who are concerned are those whose rights are threatened, namely, Opposition back-bench hon. Members. It is they who will be squeezed out. Their Amendments are the ones for which time will not be found, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett) rightly said.
The other day, the Leader of the House denied that there would be any basic shift in the balance of power between the House and the Executive. This is where we disagree with him, because there will be great differences. First of all, Treasury Ministers can expect a great deal more support, not to say padding, from the benches behind them. That will all take away from Opposition time. However, if there is no change in the basic balance of power between the Executive and the House of Commons, why make the change at all—[Interruption.] I am sure that the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Rhodes) has something very interesting to say——
Mr. Crossman: He was not saying it to me. I was listening to the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) with a very keen ear, and I heard every word that he said.
Mr. Peyton: If there is no change in the basic balance of power, why do we have this Motion? It must achieve some-
234
thing, and I cannot believe that it will achieve anything save to our prejudice.
Another remark made by the right hon. Gentleman was to the effect that fair and orderly discussion depends on each side having ultimate sanctions but not having recourse to them. The burden of our complaint here is that the Government are adding to their ultimate powers and taking away from ours. That is what worries us. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) described the Motion as an attempt to make an honest woman of the Guillotine. I see what he meant. What the Motion is doing in fact is providing a fairly vicious young sister for that lady. Future Oppositions will have to cope with the pair of them.
I profundly agree with the Amendments standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames to which I subsequently added my name. So I do not claim credit for the authorship of those Amendments, though I support them with vigour and conviction. I do not believe that a two-hour debate is an adequate deterrent on the Government. A debate lasting for that amount of time will not make the Government pause before introducing the type of Motion before us. Nor do I find it tolerable that we should be dependent on the opinion of a Minister of the Crown.
The leader of the House should be the first to recollect that when he was in Opposition he did not always find the opinions of Ministers of the Crown wholly acceptable. Indeed, he was a frequent and eloquent challenger of those opinions. In these days, when the power of Government is increasing constantly, I look with ever growing suspicion, dislike and jealousy on the suggestion that we should accept as being something which carries conviction the opinion of a Minister of the Crown.
Ministers can be sub-divided into three categories in their relations with the House of Commons. There are those who fear the House and there are those who despise it. Perhaps those two classes intermix. There are also those, very few of them, who have a deep respect for the House and who always show it. The present Leader of the House is only reasonably young in his tenure of office

235
and it would not become me to pass final judgment on him now. There are few Ministers in the Government today who have shown, in their tenure of office, any very great respect for the House of Commons. There are many, however, who have shown contempt, while there are others who have shown fear.
The Motion can be described as one which calls for more Government and less discussion. The record of the present Government is one that demands a great deal more discussion and a lot less Governmental activity. If the Government wish to introduce and initiate reforms such as this, they may call in aid a Select Committee, but they should, in the long run, impose them on the Opposition rather than seek by wiles to persuade us to agree.
I regard this proposal as wholly unpalatable. The reasons for the procedures of the House of Commons may not always be obvious, but they were mostly created by men whose desire it was to protect the freedom of the individual and the liberty of the subject. Back benchers, who nowadays do not enjoy any very great privileges, should be willing to see what privileges they have go only with the utmost suspicion and care. They should see that if such privileges are to be sacrificed, there must be some very substantial return from the Government. In this case we are being asked to give up something very substantial but are being offered virtually nothing in return.
I pay tribute to the Leader of the House for the courtesy which he has not always shown but which, on this occasion, he did show when moving the Motion. At the same time, however, I believe that his courtesy was matched by his cunning, and my hon. Friends would do well to see through it and reject the Motion.
10.5 p.m.
Mr. James Ramsden: I almost feel that I should apologise, Mr. Speaker, for seeking to catch your eye twice on the same day. That is contrary to my normal practice, but it so happens that two pieces of business set down by the Leader of the House—the Second Reading of a Bill this morning and now the continuation of the debate on this Motion—are topics on which I have
236
strong convictions. I therefore hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not blame me if I now make a few remarks in support of the Amendments standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter).
I am not a member of the present Select Committee on Procedure, but I was a member of the 1959 Select Committee, of which the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) was also a member. When he was telling the House during our last debate about his conviction that there ought to be a built-in timetable to all Bills, it carried me back to our discussions in that Select Committee in 1959. I remember the apprehension I then felt about the possible developments of this line of argument, so that, in a sense, this present speech voices the deep-seated and long-held apprehensions that I have had on this subject, and I have had this speech under my belt for some considerable time.
What makes me apprehensive of the present proposals of the Leader of the House? I say what I have to say with due deference to the right hon. Gentleman's speech in moving the Motion, and certainly with due deference to the great efforts made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) and his colleagues on the Select Committee to achieve a compromise acceptable to the whole House. Even granted that what we have before us is suggested only as an experiment for this one year, there are substantial objections to the proposed procedure.
The Select Committee itself perhaps tended to undervalue the weight of the evidence given by my right hon. Friend the Opposition Chief Whip. In support of that statement, I should like to quote what my right hon. Friend said with reference to the possibility of an agreed timetable, which is the substance of this present proposal. In the first column in page 20 of the Fourth Report, we read:
"But if you say to the Opposition Chief Whip: 'You must make a voluntary agreement before the Committee Stage starts', he will tell you: 'You are putting me in an impossible position. You are asking me to do something which I cannot carry out'."
Later, in discussion with the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), my right

237
hon. Friend said, in the second column on page 27:
"If Mr. Woodburn is talking about a timetable attached to the Finance Bill, then I think this is a guillotine motion on the Finance Bill by another name; I think it would be so regarded by any Opposition; and I cannot think that any Opposition would agree that that was a good idea."
I hope that I have not been too selective, but I thought that those were two noteworthy points in my right hon. Friend's evidence. In view of that I think that when the Select Committee said:
"Mr. Whitelaw, without committing himself, did not rule this out as a possibility."
it was being slightly optimistic, if that is the right word, about that evidence.
I believe that this proposal does constitute a built-in Guillotine on the Finance Bill, and that its effect will be to change the character of the debate on the Finance Bill in such a way that it will not be possible for back-bench members of the Opposition of the day to discharge what I conceive to be their proper constitutional duty with regard to that Measure.
Now, when there is an Amendment concerned with what the Opposition believe to be a bad tax or a proposal for taxation injurious to widespread commercial or private interests, we have a succession of speakers from the Opposition side one after another battering at the Treasury Bench. If that continuous battery is interrupted it is interrupted only by the odd independent-minded hon. Member on the Government side whose convictions drive him to reinforce the arguments put from the Opposition side. Because of that his intervention is all the more telling. Because of this character of the debate concessions are made from time to time by the Treasury Bench, possibly because, the weight of the argument prevails, but also certainly because the length of the debate and the amount of time consumed and the fact that there has been no prior agreement to control that time, because of the very uncertainty of the situation operates on the Government and makes them more disposed to come to an agreement.
Sir Edward Boyle: My right hon. Friend speaks about "the" debate, but would he not agree that the essence of opposition to a bad tax is that there should be
238
a number of debates on separate Amendments?
Mr. Ramsden: I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. We were discussing this the other day. I was about to make that point; my right hon. Friend has anticipated it. Under the present proposal, in the form in which it is in the mind of the Government, they can ultimately control the length of time for the proceedings on the whole Bill, and we shall get the debate developing one-for-one from each side right from the start. I see no reason why that should not happen, and obviously the Government Whips will encourage it.
It may be argued that this will produce a much better balanced debate, but it is certainly not my experience, and I doubt if it is that of my hon. Friends, that what carries conviction in this House and wins concessions is the quality of debate. I am afraid that is not so. If it were, Parliament would be more nearly perfect, but it would be a different world. Apparently what does win concessions is such little power as the Opposition may retain to work their will on the Government and on the Treasury Ministers.
From our point of view, this proposal will produce a different sort of debate. I say "our point of view" because we are the Opposition for the time being. I think it will be a sort of debate which will render us less effective in representing the interests of those affected by the proposals of Treasury Ministers in Finance Bills.
The third point is that there is a sense in which the Finance Bill is special legislation. I do not mean "special" only in the sense that it affects the financial interests of individuals and companies. I do not mean "special" only in the sense, which I think the Opposition Chief Whip meant, in the evidence which has been referred to, of being tied up with the whole question of "No taxation without representation" and so on. It is special in a much simpler and more obvious way in that of all legislation the Finance Bill comes upon the House and the country as it were "out of the blue".
There is no prior consultation before the Chancellor's proposals are introduced because he has to preserve his Budget secrecy. Therefore, consultations

239
with affected interests which normally precede the introduction of important legislation are absent in the case of the Finance Bill. There is very little time between the introduction of the Budget and the bringing forward of the Finance Bill for the interests affected who wish to make representations to be received by Treasury Ministers and for them to have time to deploy their case. The time just does not exist. Therefore, it is all the more incumbent upon Parliament to be able to make the representations which, in the case of other legislation, are made beforehand, often privately to Treasury Ministers. Any proposal which limits Parliament's ability to discharge this duty should be regarded with suspicion.
On a complicated and controversial Bill, one may expect as a matter of course to find a great number of Amendments tabled, many of which hon. Members on this side will wish to argue. This is right and natural. When a tax is bad, or, not to use emotive words, questionable or controversial, the only way open to an Opposition to prove how bad or questionable it is is by moving Amendments, perhaps many of them, each one directed to a particular aspect of the tax or to its effects on a certain group of individuals. With the timetable procedure, if there is a long and balanced debate upon an early group of Amendments about one tax, other Amendments, which other hon. Members may wish to move and which may well be worthy of being moved, will be shoved out and might escape without discussion.
Mr. John M. Temple: Will my right hon. Friend agree that complete complicated Clauses might go through without discussion if this procedure were adopted?
Mr. Ramsden: A fortiori that is absolutely true. I am not thinking only of the notorious 1965 Bill, in whose passage the Financial Secretary played a great part and in which I played a much smaller part. I am thinking of any controversial Finance Bill. I am thinking of Finance Bills such as that which followed the 'pots and pans' Budget of Lord Butler. Other hon. Members will not have any difficulty in supplying examples. This process, if the Opposition are
240
allowed to go in for it, as I think they must be so allowed, is bound to take a long time.
The corollary is that we shall have to sit late. The Select Committee has started from the position that all-night sittings are undesirable and that the House should make every effort not to sit late. Late sittings have their objections. They are inconvenient to hon. Members. They are inconvenient for the staff in many respects. However, they afford the Opposition an opportunity of doing their constitutional duty, which I do not see any other procedure which I have heard suggested being able to afford. I should be sorry if the House lightly ruled them out.
Although I recognise the great and genuine urge for reform which animates certain quarters of the House at the moment, I think that all these proposals are not particularly necessary, in view of how things have worked, because our experience is that the Government always get the Finance Bill. They do not guillotine it. I do not remember a Finance Bill having been guillotined. Without any elaborate procedure of Motions being moved, the Finance Bill, in the way these things work, carries with it its own built-in voluntary timetable which is not the sort of voluntary timetable suggested in this Motion.
I will tell the Leader of the House how it works, although he knows this perfectly well. In fact, he knows it even better than I do. It works when, after a long debate lasting into the small hours, the group of people principally concerned with carrying on the debates on the Opposition side meet the following morning somewhere to decide on the course of the debates for the next day. Some of them are anxious to go on running something. Others say, "We have given this a good run. The House is getting bored with it, the country is getting bored with it, the Press is getting bored with it. There is no more political mileage in it. We had better have another hour and leave it at that". That is the way it works. No one feels frustrated, and the Government get their Bill. No one can say that the Opposition have been gagged. Concessions are made. People feel that they have won concessions. In the end, the whole thing is wound up, and there are no complaints.

241
I do not see why matters should not be left as they are. With great respect to the Leader of the House, I should be more convinced of the weight of his proposals if they were supported by any of those whom I remember from his party's days in opposition as big Finance Bill figures. The right hon. Gentleman's activities lay in other directions. I cannot myself claim to be a great Finance Bill figure, but there are those who can. If the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), now Joint Under-Secretary of State at the Department of Economic Affairs, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Education and Science, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary or others one can think of really threw their weight behind this proposal, I should be convinced, perhaps, though surprised, bearing in mind that they must know that one day they may find themselves on this side of the House.
It would be a pity if we were to lose some of the rather exciting and unpredictable twists and turns which can occur on the Finance Bill. I remember an occasion when, after a long debate, un-reasonaDly extended, as we, then on the Government side, thought, there was finally a move from, I think, our own Front Bench to report Progress. The then Chairman of Ways and Means refused to accept the Motion on the ground that there had not been any progress for the past four hours. We were all in a quandary, wondering how to get to bed. No one knew how to get the House up because he would not accept the Motion. At the end, someone had to devise a procedure by which it was moved that the Chairman should leave the Chair. This was accepted, with the result that the Government lost the Finance Bill, and a Motion had to be moved to reinstate it. That is only a small thing, but it is part of the atmosphere. Hon. Members opposite may call it an antic, but I should be sorry to lose the unpredictability and flexibility which our procedure has at the moment.
The opposition to the status quo and the enthusiasm for reform stem, I suspect, from the experience of 1965 and the understandable feeling among hon. Members opposite that they spend a lot of time hanging about while the Finance Bill is in progress. I do not think that
242
having to hang about in the building or in the Chamber is, in itself, such a despicable part of Parliamentary procedure. One of the most valuable experiences which hon. Members have to undergo is having to be here. I do not believe that everything of value in Parliamentary life happens in the Chamber or that we are here only to debate back and forth. A great deal of value in our being here lies in the opportunities one has to study our fellow Members and, in particular, those who for the time being are Ministers discharging responsibility on behalf of the Crown. The hot-house and rather strained atmosphere sometimes evident during the passage of the Finance Bill provides not a bad environment in which to assess the character and true qualities of those who are aspiring to lead the House of Commons and the country. I should not, therefore, like to see any change made, and I shall be sorry if the proposals of the Leader of the House are accepted.
10.25 p.m.
Dr. David Kerr: There can be few experiences more wounding than to discover that all the kindnesses which one has set out to do are rebuffed by those whom one thought to be one's friends, or even by hon. Members opposite whom one thought might be one's friends, rejected as pieces of cruelty or as cunning, with which the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) charged my right hon. Friend, combined with a sort of disguised courtesy which was the sugar coating to the pill.
In fact, we on the Select Committee on Procedure had everybody in the House in mind when we made some suggestions which the Government, in their wisdom, have been kind enough to take up. Those of us who are, so to speak, hell-bent on reforming this place do not necessarily and always regard the Select Committee on Procedure as the ideal instrument for achieving that.
I speak as a member of the Select Committee, and I should like to elaborate on what I have just said in case anybody should interpret it as an attack either on the Committee or on my fellow members of it. The first thing which I think those Members who oppose the Motion must recognise is how much further some of us would like to go and

243
how steadfastly, intelligently and persuasively we were restrained by some of the members of the Select Committee. Among them, perhaps I might be allowed to mention the right hon. and learned Member for The Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd), whose wisdom and experience in the House count for a great deal, certainly on this side of the House and on our side of the Select Committee. We listened to his advice, and his colleagues should know that the modest proposal now before the House was won in the teeth of far greater enthusiasm for reform from people like myself.
Sir D. Glover: Would the hon. Gentleman correct the word "reform" and say "alteration"?
Dr. Kerr: No, Sir. I stick to the good English word
"reform", which is really what some of us are very concerned about.
I was about to say that reference has been made to the 1965 Finance Bill. I recognise that the rôle played by that Bill in stimulating an urge for reform among those of us who entered the House in 1964 cannot be over-rated. I am sure that my own interest and enthusiasm for reform stems from those long, weary, and, to me, continuously pointless nights that we spent here.
I acknowledge, of course, that that enthusiasm does not make me an expert on Parliamentary reform. It makes me, I acknowledge with humility, a hothead, which the slow refrigeration of this place may be cooling down a little. What we are faced with tonight is not what I regard as a masterly stroke of reform of the procedure of the House. I very much respect the kind criticism which is offered by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. They are speaking in a way which I admire and applaud. They are speaking for
back-bench rights. However, they must not overlook that we on this side of the House also cherish back-bench rights, whether we happen to belong to the party in Government or the party in Opposition we cherish those rights in the same way.
Although I admire the way in which they are doing battle for what we want to preserve, I do not see that the Motion is as damaging as is claimed. In evidence for what I have just said I adduce the fact that the hon. Member for Yeovil
244
based much of his case upon the modest Amendments tabled by himself and his right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). They would not in fact so alter the substance of the Motion as to destroy the case for it, which the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman are attempting to destroy. The hon. Member for Yeovil has not destroyed it by simply referring to the modest Amendments.
Mr. Peyton: If the hon. Gentleman looks at HANSARD tomorrow he will see that I spent about a minute and no more in dealing with the specific Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend. I made my comments on quite other grounds.
Dr. Kerr: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says, but nevertheless he is one of the signatories to the Amendment. He is not evidently deploying a more powerful case in terms of a more powerful Amendment and I rest therefore on my profound belief that he is less concerned to defeat the Motion than to speak vigorously and properly against it.
I must again point out that the hon. Gentleman has his allies on the Select Committee and that the kind of discussion we are taking part in tonight is only a repetition of the kind of discussion which took place in the Select Committee. This is one of the reasons why I tried very hard to resist taking part in this debate. It seems to me that once the Committee has reported its members, apart from perhaps the Chairman and the leader of the Opposition members on the Committee, have a duty not to intervene too long and vigorously in a debate in the House which we have already had in the Committee.
But it is only right, in view of the apparent misconceptions I have heard set forth in this debate, that someone should protect the interests of such worthy people as the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) and the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral, both of whom, I assure their hon. Friends, deployed the case to such an extent that some of us who still, despite the evidence, would wish the Finance Bill to be taken in Committee upstairs, are persuaded, at this moment

245
at any rate, that there is a great case for asking the House to adopt this form of procedure for this Session.
We shall have a modest Finance Bill this time and this is a modest Motion for dealing with it. I urge that a close examination of the Motion be made by the House. It has built-in protections— reference to the House, a Committee to steer the Bill and the long history of the Finance Bill procedure which, if one examines the Report of the Select Committee, is determined almost by tradition as to length. That would be taken into consideration by the Business Committee in determining the timing. All these factors are built in protections for the rights of back benchers.
It was this kind of persuasive language which prompted us on both sides of the Select Committee to bring together our very diverse views on this matter and to urge the House to adopt this method for this Session as an experiment in the first place and particularly, I emphasise, until the Committee's more comprehensive review of the whole of Public Bill procedure can be put before the House in order to provide a setting against which any necessary alteration in Finance Bill procedure might become even more acceptable to the House than I think: his Motion should be tonight.
10.35 p.m.
Sir Douglas Glover: The hon. Member for Wandsworth, Central (Dr. David Kerr) has reinforced the objection that many of my hon. Friends take to the Motion. I do not want to detain the House unduly, but we are debating something that should not be debated at this hour. It is fundamental to the whole procedures of Parliament. I admit to the Leader of the House that I do not speak for the whole of my own side of the House.
There are many of my hon. Friends, as there are many hon. Members opposite, who take the view of the hon. Member for Wandsworth, Central and the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn), who spoke when we last debated this subject. If their thinking were carried to its logical conclusion, it would be said that as the Government had a majority, once they had explained the Bill and once the Opposition Front Bench spokesman had replied, anything which
246
happened after that would be a waste of time and that we might as well have the Division and finish the business. The argument is that anything after that moment is just filibustering—unless it is accepted that the fundamental duty of the House of Commons is the power of delay.
To give the House an example which is valid to this argument, I should like to quote the Termination of Pregnancy Bill. I am not now entering on the rights or wrongs, virtues or vices, of that Bill which, on Second Reading, had a majority of about 223 to 29, an overwhelming majority. However, those who do not believe the Bill to be right have undertaken a detailed examination of the Bill which has resulted in delay. Many organisations which would not otherwise have known of the implications of the Bill are now alerted.
While it would be wrong for me to say what will happen at later stages of that Bill, I think that it will be found that the House is much more closely divided than it was on Second Reading. In other words, the House of Commons will have done one of the jobs for which it is designed, which is to delay the implementation of the Executive's ideas and to give time for opinions outside the Chamber to coagulate and become coherent and receive expression. Anything which reduces that power of delay must take away from the power of the House.
I am not against reform. I have been in the House far too long to believe that there are not some things which we can do to reform it. What makes me suspicious is that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House during 13 years of opposition was conspicuously absent from the detailed discussion of Bills. He came here on many significant occasions, thrilled the House with his oratory, and then went away to some other activity. He was rarely present in the early hours of the morning for detailed Committee stages. With the greatest respect to him—I think that he is learning—he does not understand how the House of Commons works, not even with some of his own procedures. I am sure that if he had realised what would happen, he would not have brought in morning sessions, which are so emasculated——
Mr. Speaker: We have enough to discuss without mentioning morning sittings.
Sir D. Glover: I apologise, Mr. Speaker. In politics it is a very good thing to do one's homework, and if one is to suggest amendments to one's procedure, it is as well to have done one's homework. I remember that the right hon. Gentleman and I were the chairmen of our respective party conferences in 1961 and I remember reading an article which was rather complimentary to the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), but which said that the Labour Party conference got into an awful tangle because the right hon. Gentleman had not done his homework.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member himself must do his homework and get back to the Motion.
Sir D. Glover: I promise, Mr. Speaker, that from now on I will be the soul of rectitude, and I am sure that you will not have to call me to order again.
I am sure that the House was impressed by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) and by the danger in the Motion which he outlined. The Motion pays lip service to our procedure, but in practice it takes away much of the Opposition's power for delay and argument. On Committee or Report stage of a Bill, once it is known that the House will rise at 11 p.m., the seven hours allotted to the debate will be equally divided between both sides of the House. If it is known that eight days have been allotted to the Finance Bill, that time will be equally divided between the two sides of the House. I do not blame Government back-bench Members for that. If I were on the Government back benches and this system operated. I should have no hesitation in taking the maximum time I could to deprive the Opposition of the time to marshal and hammer home their case.
At an election there is a minority—although it is amazing how quickly minorities turn into majorities. Millions of people in the country, in that minority, suffer from a sense of frustration. The party which they dislike more than anything else politically is in power. For 13 years this view was held by Labour Party supporters. Now it is held by
248
Conservative Party supporters. They expect the minority in the House of Commons to hammer home the views which they feel ought to be the majority view of the nation, and anything which takes away the power to do that makes them feel that their standard bearers are not doing their duty as they ought and that Parliament is not the forum of argument and discussion that it ought to be.
Fundamentally this comes down to the fact that many right hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, after 13 years of power, are still very much Treasury-Bench minded. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, after two-and-a-half years in power, are becoming very Treasury-Bench minded. Many young and ambitious Members opposite are convinced that before the issue is put to the electorate again they will be on the Front Bench. They do not want the business of the House to be delayed. They want to make powerful speeches from the Dispatch Box, sweeping the Opposition aside, getting a big majority in the Division Lobbies and going home at 9.30 p.m.
That is what any party in power wants to do, but it is not the role of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman is the first to admit that the Executive has more power today than it had in the past and that every day which passes sees the executive with more power. But the House has the power of delay and examination and particularly the power to let people outside know what are the issues about which we are arguing.
This gives time for the Press, television and radio to report and for the various organisations affected by what we are discussing to put their arguments to Members. That inevitably means that if we as back benchers are doing the job for which we were returned we have to slow down the rate of legislation and, when something is controversial, give the people outside an opportunity of expressing their views. If the Leader of the House would say this clearly and unequivocally, it might remove a great deal of my objection.
Under this procedure, as I understand it, we are to get, through the usual channels, an agreed procedure. If the debate is not going very well the Patronage Secretary will say to the Leader of the House that something must be done about it.

249
Then, as I understand, the matter is sent to the Business Committee of the Panel of Chairmen plus some elected members. I will use the Finance Bill of 1965 as an example. What worries me is that, after the Bill has been on the Floor of the House for three days, at least half the Government's Amendments and two-thirds of the Opposition's Amendments had not been put down. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will intervene if I am wrong.
If the Leader of the House would give us a solemn assurance the Opposition would have the right to go back to the Business Committee and say that although they agreed to seven or eight days as a result of the Committee's recommendation to the House, since then the Government had brought in another 150 Amendments. If the House took only half a minute on half of them, as they were uncontroversial, that would mean l¼ hours, and if they took half an hour on each of the remainder which were controversial, and only a spokesman from each of the Front Benches spoke, this would add up to another day's business.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give us his views on this, because it will influence the way I vote tonight. If the right hon. Gentleman would give an assurance that at that time the Opposition could go back to the Business Committee and say that because of the alteration in the circumstances, and because of the number of Amendments that the Committee was being asked to consider, they wanted extra time, and the Government of the day did not have the power to refuse, it would affect the way I will vote tonight.
10.49 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Birch: This proposal is a very bad one indeed. The basic business of this House is, and always has been, to control expenditure and Supply. We in this House have lost control of expenditure. The House had control of expenditure in Gladstone's day when it was £60 million and Government services were few. We have lost control now, but we have not lost control of taxation and it would be a terrible thing if we did.
When the right hon. Gentleman was introducing this proposal he referred to
250
the Finance Bill as a bore which afflicts us in the summer. It is the most important thing that the House has to do. It is not a bore. For the people of this country taxation is not a bore; it is an agony. Our job is to try to get taxation as equitable and right as we possibly can, whether it bores or not. That is what we are here to do, not to talk about foreign affairs and things that we know nothing about. That is what we should be doing.
This proposal is said to be an experiment, but everyone knows that it is not—it is nonsense to pretend that it is. Then it is said that it is not really a Guillotine. [t is a Guillotine, in a more genteel form, but it is a Guillotine. I have no doubt whatever about that. The most discreditable of all the arguments brought forward in support is this is that if we do not agree to the Government's proposal, they might do something worse.
Let them do even their damndest. The country will realise this and the Government who bring in badly digested taxation ought to be punished for it. Everyone has mentioned the degrading examples of Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax. Treasury Ministers were begging us not to go too fast because they did not have their briefs ready. That is not a case for a Guillotine. A Minister who makes a bad speech ought to be punished for delaying the House. This is a really bad, evil, nonsensical business, and I hope that every honourable man will oppose it.
10.52 p.m.
Mr. John Nott (St. Ives): This Motion is thoroughly regrettable. In the short time that I have been in this House I have formed the view that our procedure is in urgent need of reform. But this particular Motion seems to be reforming our procedure in quite the wrong direction. If, in the Finance Bill, there are certain Clauses about which hon. Members feel very strongly, surely it is essential that they are thoroughly debated here and thrashed out before discussion on them comes to an end.
If hon. Members feel that the Finance Bill takes too long in this House, the best reform would be to send part of it upstairs and let those hon. Members interested in particular Clauses debate

251
them at length, and let the more controversial items, which affect the general policies relating to taxation be debated here on the Floor of the House. If this Motion is carried, Members who have not been in the House long, who feel strongly about particular Clauses, and who wish to speak upon them, will find themselves excluded, because members of the Privy Council and other senior Members will wish to speak. When the matters concerning them most deeply come along, they will not have an opportunity of raising their voice on points which could be of substantial interest to their constituents.
If there is to be a reform of the Finance Bill, the really vital, fundamental, difficult and more controversial aspects of it should be debated on the Floor of the House and the complicated, technical matters, about which certain Members have some knowledge, should be taken upstairs and debated at length, without any kind of Guillotine being imposed.
I feel that this Motion will detract from the prestige of the House, because certain Clauses will pass through without being given sufficient examination. On that basis, I shall certainly oppose it.
10.54 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): In reply to the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott), I would just say that his suggestion that we should split the Finance Bill, and have parts sent upstairs and parts taken on the Floor, has been considered ad nauseam by Select Committees and found to be impracticable. It has also been found to be impracticable by the Government. We must turn our attention to the proposals which have been tested and which, at least, are put forward with some experience.
We have had a good, long debate and I will try to reply to the points raised, and not repeat the main argument, which is fairly well-known.
In reply to the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) I must say that I feel that he was being a little unjust when he said that it was the wrong time of day, or night, to debate this subject. We tried first from 3.30 p.m. to 10 p.m.; we tried it in the morning; and
252
we are trying it now. I have enjoyed the debate at all times, and I would not like to tell the House which was the time when the speeches excelled and when they flagged. It has been an extremely good debate at all times of day and night, for what the hon. Gentleman rightly called an inexperienced Leader of the House.
The hon. Member rather pricked my conscience when he reminded me of my past. He is quite right when he says that on past Finance Bills I was one of the mass of sufferers rather than an active accomplice in torture such as himself. I was merely woken up and forced through the Lobby. All I can say is that in my earliest experiences I always came into the Chamber and found the "whiz kid" from Wirral speaking, and making his name as one of the torturers who, I think I am right in saying, tortured the late Hugh Dalton.
I am aware that many hon. Members speak with far greater authority than I—I see them all round me—on the Finance Bill. I simply remind the hon. Member that I am not speaking with my own authority. I am only recommending a proposal which has been put forward by a Select Committee unanimously and strongly, and supported by one member of his own Front Bench, although not by all members of his own Front Bench. I would not, of course, presume to put this proposal forward unless it had been something which had been tested in the Select Committee.
I now turn, if the House will forgive me, to one or two of the points which were mentioned in the last period of our debate on Wednesday morning. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) asked me about the meaning of "days" in my Motion. It means sittings. If my hon. Friend asks me how long a sitting lasts, this is one of the things which we have been discussing, but it seems to me to be implicit in any agreement of the kind which I have described that the parties to the agreement should have in mind a time at which, subject to a good deal of give and take such as has been described, they would hope to see the sitting's business completed: that is to say, nobody would have a rigid timetable.

253
We would always accept the need for the unpredictable, which has been asked for in such moving speeches, but one would have a broad agreement made both about the total time and the day for reporting back to the House, and also, although not being precise, about the time a: which we would hope to end each day's sitting. As many right hon. and hon. Members have told me, this broadly occurs already.
The question is, as I think, the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) would say, whether I am seeking to gild what is already a lily. Do not we have an admirable system of voluntary agreements—this is being put to me—and is not everything so good on the Finance Bill that we cannot make it better? Those who are active accomplices in torture may think that it is perfect, but a number of right hon. and hon. Members who suffer under them wonder whether we could not introduce into our procedures a little more predictability without destroying altogether the charm for which the right hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) so movingly pleaded.
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that minority interests often get an Amendment accepted on the Finance Bill only when they have repeated it year after year? How will they get the opportunity to do that under the right hon. Gentleman's proposal? It seems to me to be ruled out.
Mr. Crossman: I would have thought that that was true. Surely, however, the answer is that it is year after year, not hour after hour after midnight. That is the way one gets it done. What we are discussing—and I thank the House for a very good-tempered discussion — is whether we can improve our procedure and make it rather more predictable without destroying the unpredictability, and without, incidentally, basically shifting the balance of power with which we are dealing.
The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), in a characteristic speech, said that he thought that the whole of this meant more government and less discussion. He said that the Government like this. He said that the Opposition Front Bench likes it. Here, I think, he was exaggerating. Some like it, some do not.
254
The hon. Member said that all the Government back benchers like it, and, therefore, he would not agree to it.
There comes a point when, if three parts out of four like something very much, the question is how far the fourth part should prevent the three parts from trying the experiment. We are discussing whether this experiment should be tried. But I recognise that a large number of hon. Members on the Opposition back benches conscientiously tell me that this experiment will spoil the effect of the Finance Bill.
I want now to deal with what I thought was the most important new argument put this evening by the right hon. Member for Harrogate. I thought that he made a very charming speech, but also I thought that he put two points which needed an answer. It is true that in his speech he sounded almost as if he were reminiscing about his school days and those midnight feats that one had, which seem so wonderful 20 years later. This was a picture of events at 4 o'clock in the morning, and the charm and amusement of those occasions. However, one has to consider the matter not only in terms of charm, but also in terms of the way in which we conduct our business.
I come, therefore, to the right hon. Gentleman's central point. I think I quote him correctly. He said, "One gets concessions by battering the Government, not by the quality of the debate." I reflected on this a great deal, for I think that this is a serious argument. It is a serious matter to say that the way the business is conducted here traditionally is to concentrate on quantity, and that the quality of what one says does not matter. But, on reflection, I wonder whether he is right.
I think that it is often said that the thing to do is to go on for hours and hours, and then the Government get tired, rather than make a short, completely convincing case which they cannot answer. I tend, as a rational human being, to believe that the second approach, rather than the first, is the way we want to conduct our business. But I can see how eager the Opposition are for the first method, where it does not matter what one says, so long as one says it for long enough.
The question I ask myself is whether, historically, this is actually true. Have Oppositions got their way more by this

255
principle that "If we say a thing for long enough, and violently enough, and with little enough sense, in the end the Government will be on our side"? The quotation from the right hon. Gentleman's speech is "not the quality of the debate, but the battering." What does that mean? I would say in all seriousness that this is a curious view to be expressed by somebody who says that the Finance Bill is the most important part of our proceedings, where we have to defend the public against the Government, where serious work has to be done. Then we are told that it does not matter what is said, so long as it is said for long enough.
Mr. Ramsden: The right hon. Gentleman is not being quite fair. I was referring to the debate in which we have one speech from one side of the House followed by a speech from the other side, which is often described as a debate of greater quality than the debate in which speeches come continuously from one side. It was only in that sense that I said that that particular debate was not necessarily better than the other kind.
Mr. Crossman: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has explained. What he was surely referring to was the battering, one after another, saying things until the Government give way. There is an argument for this. I said that delaying progress by speech is one way of impressing a Government. But I wonder whether, during the Committee stage of a Finance Bill, one gets concessions best in this way. I wonder whether on Corporation Tax and the Capital Gains Tax —two controversial measures—what I would call the filibustering type of debates get more satisfaction than debates in which the speeches are short, terse and to the point. This Motion which I am moving makes the assumption that the quality of the debate matters as much as the battering.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin Mr. Patrick Jenkin (Wanstead and Woodford) rose——
Mr. Crossman: I think that the House would like to come to a decision——
Sir E. Boyle: May I speak as one who has played a fairly active part in the debates on six Finance Bills? Surely it is only after protracted debate, some-
256
times late at night, that it becomes apparent that the Treasury Minister is not able to satisfy the Committee? That often applies to both sides of the Committee, and not just to one side.
Mr. Crossman: I accept that there are times when battering and quality coincide. That is a very good debate when it happens. Therefore, this is a perfectly sound point to make.
If it were a matter of our cutting down enormously the total amount of time for the Finance Bill, that would be something else, but nobody is suggesting that. This unanimous proposal is not to reduce the time, but to see that the time is spent more sensibly, and to see if we can sometimes have not quite so many late-night sittings. These are the objects, and I emphasise this for the benefit of hon. Members who may not have been in the Chamber earlier in this discussion. I believe that the case for this has been made extremely clear.
The right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) obviously wants me to answer——
Sir D. Glover: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of the amount of time to be allocated to the Finance Bill, will he answer my question, since, as I pointed out, his answer will affect the way in which I vote? What will happen, agreement having been reached with the Business Committee, if the Government then suddenly table an extra lot of Amendments?
Mr. Crossman: I will answer that question immediately, and my answer concerns the first Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames. If the Government were to put down a great many Amendments, then, as I understand, that would be pointed out to the Chancellor or the Government through the usual channels.
I am assuming—and there seems to be some misunderstanding about the way in which our proceedings go on at present— that the usual channels would be the usual channels; that the Chancellor and the "shadow" Chancellor would converse about the debate. The only question is when they would start talking, and whether there should be this safeguard.

257
The answer, therefore, is that this would come up in those discussions, and it would be clearly put to the Government, if such a mass of additional Amendments were put down, that more time must be provided.
Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter: What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is, no doubt, relevant while a voluntary agreement was in operation. But can he clear up the question of what would happen if those Amendments were tabled after a time table had been fixed and after the debate and vote?
Mr. Crossman: I had the impression that it was more frequently on Report that Government amendments were put down. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think I am right. If the question is what would we do if there was a major change in the balance of the Bill owing to a mass of Government Amendments having been tabled, then the answer is that that would be discussed through the usual channels in the usual way. In other words, if the Opposition concluded that what had happened had clearly violated the agreement, then they would have their method of dealing with the matter if it was felt that a change had not been made by the Government in view of what they had done. I am, of course, assuming a rational relationship, as often exists, between the two sides.
Sir D. Glover: This is a fundamental point. I am not talking about the voluntary position. I am considering what might happen if the matter had gone to the Business Committee, the timetable had been debated for two hours under the right hon. Gentleman's proposal and then, after all that, the Government suddenly brought forward another 100 Amendments. What would happen then?
Mr. Crossman: The hon. Gentleman has not understood the proposal of the Select Committee, which the Government are recommending. The Government are not recommending that a timetable should be debated for two hours and put to the House. We are proposing that there should be agreement reached between both sides without a two-hour debate or use of the Standing Order, which would only be a safeguard or re-
258
serve, and, as I explained, would only be brought into use then. The hon. Gentleman does not have the position right. There would not be a two-hour debate unless the relationship had broken down.
I hope that I may be allowed to turn to the Amendment. I was asked whether it was fair that a Minister of the Crown——
Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I must ask the right hon. Gentleman a question on this topic of time. It would be almost inconceivable that, after three or four days of a Committee stage, 100 Amendments would suddenly be tabled. But in the event of such an extraordinary circumstance occurring, would not the right hon. Gentleman say that perhaps the whole matter of what should happen could be reconsidered?
Mr. Crossman: I am saying that if that happened, there would, of course, be consultations through the usual channels, and if 100 Amendments were put down and we had a rational relationship, then the time would be revised because there would not have been a time laid down. I emphasise that under the existing proposal there is not going to be a two-hour debate on a Guillotine. There will be no Guillotine, and no two-hour debate, unless the voluntary agreement breaks down.
The voluntary agreement would, of course, include consideration of the unusual situation in which the Government have put down 100 new Amendments, in which case the timetable would obviously be revised. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) made it perfectly clear; and that those who are not understanding it are being reluctant to understand what is being proposed.
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Crossman: I come now to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames. He asked why it was that a Minister of the Crown should be responsible to the House for notifying a breakdown in the agreement on the timetabling. I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) was quite right when he asked whether

259
it was not for Mr. Speaker to take the lead in such matter.
If the agreement arrived at between the two sides has broken down, it is for the aggrieved parties to take action, but I will give the right hon. Gentleman this absolute assurance. The Motion standing in my name provides only for a preliminary notification to Mr. Speaker, and this would not take place except after consultation through the usual channels. That is to say, the Minister would merely be reporting a fact that had been told to him by the two usual channels. He would, therefore, not be making a judgment, but reporting the judgment of the usual channels to Mr. Speaker.
The right hon. Gentleman's second Amendment proposes that we should have a whole day's debate on the proposal to remit the timetabling to the Business Committee——
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On the subject of reporting to Mr. Speaker, this Motion provides that where
"… in the opinion of a Minister of the Crown "—
the agreement is working ineffectively—
"a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown …".
What we are objecting to is that it should be the opinion of a Minister of the Crown which should spark off, not a report to Mr. Speaker, but a Motion to apply a timetable.
Mr. Crossman: It would not be the opinion of the Minister; he would be merely reporting a breakdown which had been told to him by the usual channels.
The right hon. Gentleman's second Amendment proposes that we should have a six-hour debate, and not a two-hour debate. If we do that, we are back to where we were at the beginning.
We have had a long debate on a Motion which would put into practice experimentally for this Session a unanimous Report of the Select Committee. It is a compromise, as is frankly acknowledged, between the three views put forward. It would be a very great pity if this proposal, which was worked out by the Select Committee, were not to be
260
tried out, because it is a genuine effort to reach, by agreement between both sides, an improvement in the timetabling of the Finance Bill. I therefore hope that the House will accept the Motion.
Mr. Geoffrey Hirst Mr. Geoffrey Hirst (Shipley) rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am trying at the moment to protect the Amendments standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). Does the hon. Gentleman wish to catch my eye?
Mr. Hirst: I only want to ask a question, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to make a speech. I should like to know whether the Motion means what it says. The words are
"… any general agreement of which Mr. Speaker has been informed "—
Mr. Speaker is only informed—
"is, in the opinion of a Minister of the Crown, working ineffectively …"
That cannot tie up with what the Leader of the House said. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) that it will be the opinion of a Minister of the Crown that counts, not that of Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker is controlled by a Minister of the Crown. The right hon. Gentleman misled the House.
Mr. Crossman: I did not mislead the House. I gave the assurance, which I repeat, that this would not be the personal opinion of the Minister. The Minister in this case would be reporting a fact stated to him by the usual channels.
Mr. Speaker: Does the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames move his Amendments?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move.
Mr. Speaker: Both of them? If so each will be moved separately.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hope to move both of them, Mr. Speaker, as I understood you to give me permission to do.
I formally move the first of my Amendments, which was originally in line 7, but is now in line 8, to leave out "a Minister of the Crown" and to insert "Mr. Speaker."
Question put, That "a Minister of the Crown" stand part of the Question: —
The House divided: Ayes 201, Noes 59.

Division No. 330.]

AYES

[11.14 p.m.

Albu, Austen

Forrester, John

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Fowler, Gerry

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Alldritt, Walter

Freeson, Reginald

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Anderson, Donald

Galpern, Sir Myer

Moyle, Roland

Ashley, Jack

Gardner, Tony

Murray, Albert

Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

Garrett, W. E.

Newens, Stan

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Gourlay, Harry

Ogden, Eric

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Gregory, Arnold

Oram, Albert E.

Barnes, Michael

Grey, Charles (Durham)

Orbach, Maurice

Barnett, Joel

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Orme, Stanley

Beaney, Alan

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Oswald, Thomas

Bence, Cyril

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Palmer, Arthur

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Pardoe, John

Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

Haseldine, Norman

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Bidwell, Sydney

Hazell, Bert

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Binns, John

Heffer, Eric S.

Pavitt, Laurence

Bishop, E. S.

Henig, Stanley

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Blackburn, F.

Hobden, Dennis (Brighton. K'town)

Pentland, Norman

Booth, Albert

Hooley, Frank

Perry, George H. (Nottingham, s.)

Boyden, James

Horner, John

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Bradley, Tom

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Rees, Merlyn

Brooks, Edwin

Howie, W.

Reynolds, G. W.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Huckfield, L.

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W)

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Richard, Ivor

Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Hunter, Adam

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Buchan, Norman

Hynd, John

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, SP'burn)

Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Cant, R. B.

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St. P'cras, S.)

Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

Coe, Denis

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Coleman, Donald

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Rose, Paul

Concannon, J. D.

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Conlan, Bernard

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

Crawshaw, Richard

Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Cronin, John

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

Sheldon, Robert

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

Shore, Peter (Stepney)

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Lawson, George

Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Leadbitter, Ted

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Dalyell, Tam

Ledger, Ron

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Lipton, Marcus

Slater, Joseph

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stratford)

Lomas, Kenneth

Spriggs, Leslie

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Lubbock, Eric

Swain, Thomas

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Swingler, Stephen

Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

McBride, Neil

Thornton, Ernest

Delargy, Hugh

MacColl, James

Tinn, James

Dell, Edmund

MacDermot, Niall

Urwin, T. W.

Dempsey, James

Macdonald, A. H.

Varley, Eric G.

Dobson, Ray

McGuire, Michael

wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

Doig, Peter

McKay, Mrs. Margaret

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Dunnett, Jack

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Ward, Dame Irene

Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

Mackintosh, John P.

Watkins, David (Consett)

Eadie, Alex

MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radno)

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Wellbeloved, James

Ellis, John

MacPherson, Malcolm

Whitaker, Ben

English, Michael

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Whitlock, William

Ennals, David

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Ensor, David

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

Mallalleu, J. P. w.(Huddersfield, E.)

Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

Faulds, Andrew

Manuel, Archie

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Finch, Harold

Mapp, Charles

Winnick, David

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

Marquand, David

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Mellish, Robert

Woof, Robert

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mendelson, J. J.

Yates, Victor

Foot, sir Dingle (Ipswich)

Mikardo, Ian

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Millan, Bruce

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Ford, Ben

Moonman, Eric

Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

Mr. Joseph Harper.

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Crowder, F. P.

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Bell, Ronald

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Cos. & Fhm)

Carlisle, Mark

Drayson, G. B.

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Clark, Henry

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Cooke, Robert

Farr, John

Foster, Sir John

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Glbson-Watt, David

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Russell, Sir Ronald

Glover, Sir Douglas

Longden, Gilbert

Sharples, Richard

Gower, Raymond

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

Gresham Cooke, R.

Maddan, Martin

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

Maude, Angus

Teeling, Sir William

Hill, J. E. B.

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Temple, John M.

Hirst, Geoffrey

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Tilney, John

Hordern, Peter

Nott, John

Walker, Peter (Worcester)

Hunt, John

Onslow, Cranley

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Kimball, Marcus

Peel, John

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter and

Kirk, Peter

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Mr. John Peyton.

Amendment proposed: In line 16, leave out 'two' and insert 'six'.—[Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.]
Question put, That 'two' stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 56.

Division No. 331.]

AYES

[11.35 p.m.

Albu, Austen

Faulds, Andrew

McNamara, J. Kevin

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Finch, Harold

MacPherson, Malcolm

Alfdritt, Walter

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Anderson, Donald

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Ashley, Jack

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.)

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Manuel, Archie

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Ford, Ben

Mapp, Charles

Barnes, Michael

Forrester, John

Marquand, David

Barnett, Joel

Fowler, Gerry

Meffish, Robert

Beaney, Alan

Freeson, Reginald

Mendelson, J. J.

Bence, Cyril

Galpern, Sir Myer

Mikardo, Ian

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Gardner, Tony

Millan, Bruce

Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

Garrett, W. E.

Moonman, Eric

Bidwell, Sydney

Cordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Binns, John

Gourlay, Harry

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Bishop, E. S.

Gregory, Arnold

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Blackburn, F.

Grey, Charles (Durham)

Moyle, Roland

Booth, Albert

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Murray, Albert

Boy den, James

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Newens, Stan

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Bradley, Tom

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Oakes, Gordon

Brooks, Edwin

Haseldine, Norman

Ogden, Eric

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hazell, Bert

Oram, Albert E.

Brown, Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

Heffer, Eric S.

Orbach, Maurice

Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Henig, Stanley

Orme, Stanley

Buchan, Norman

Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

Oswald, Thomas

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

Hooley, Frank

Palmer, Arthur

Cant, R. B.

Horner, John

Pardoe, John

Coe, Denis

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Parker, John Dagenham

Coleman, Donald

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Parker, John,(Dagenham)

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Concannon, J. D.

Howie, W.

Pavitt, Laurence

Huckfield, L.

Conlan, Bernard

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Crawshaw, Richard

Hunter, Adam

Pentland, Norman

Cronin, John

Hynd, John

Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.)

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Rees, Merlyn

Dalyell, Tam

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Reynolds, G. W.

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stratford)

Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

Richard, Ivor

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Cental)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

Lawson, George

Robertson, John (Paisley)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Leadbitter, Ted

Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

Defargy, Hugh

Ledger, Ron

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Dell, Edmund

Lipton, Marcus

Rose, Paul

Dempsey, James

Lomas, Kenneth

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Dobson, Ray

Lubbock, Eric

Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

Doig, Peter

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Dunnett, Jack

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Sheldon, Robert

Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

McBride, Neil

Shore, Peter (Stepney)

Eadie, Alex

MacColl, James

Short, Rt.Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

MacDermot, Niall

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Ellis, John

Macdonald, A. H.

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

English, Michael

McGuire, Michael

Slater, Joseph

Ennals, David

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Spriggs, Leslie

Ensor, David

Mackintosh, John P.

Swain, Thomas

Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

Swingler, Stephen

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Watkins, David (Consett)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Thornton, Ernest

Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

Winnick, David

Tinn, James

Wellbeloved, James

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Urwin, T. W.

Whitaker, Ben

Woof, Robert

Varley, Eric G.

Whitlock, William

Yates, Victor

Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Ward, Dame Irene

Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

Mr. Joseph Harper and

Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Cower, Raymond

Nott, John

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Gresham Cooke, R.

Onslow, Cranley

Bell, Ronald

Heald, Rt. Hn. Lionel

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Hill, J. E. B.

Peel, John

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Hirst, Geoffrey

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Hordern, Peter

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hunt, John

Russell, Sir Ronald

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Sharples, Richard

Carlisle, Mark

Kimball, Marcus

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

Clark, Henry

Kirk, Peter

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Cooke, Robert

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Teeling, Sir William

Crowder, F. P.

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Temple, John M.

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Longden, Gilbert

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Drayson, G. B.

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Tilney, John

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Maddan, Martin

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Farr, John

Maude, Angus

Foster, Sir John

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. 8. L. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter and

Glover, Sir Douglas

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Mr. John Peyton.

Main Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 194, Noes 50.

Division No. 332.]

AYES

[11.38 p.m.

Albu, Austen

Dobson, Ray

Hynd, John

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Doig, Peter

Jackson, Peter (High Peak)

Alldritt, Walter

Dunnett, Jack

Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.)

Anderson, Donald

Dunwoody, Mrs, Gwyneth (Exeter)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Ashley, Jack

Eadie, Alex

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Ellis, John

Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

English, Michael

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

Barnes, Michael

Ennals, David

Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

Beaney, Alan

Ensor, David

Lawson, George

Bence, Cyril

Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

Leadbitter, Ted

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Faulds, Andrew

Lipton, Marcus

Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

Finch, Harold

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

Bidwell, Sydney

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

Lomas, Kenneth

Binns, John

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Lubbock, Eric

Bishop, E. S.

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Blackburn, F.

Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Booth, Albert

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

McBride, Neil

Boyden, James

Ford, Ben

MacColl, James

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Forrester, John

MacDermot, Niall

Brooks, Edwin

Fowler, Gerry

Macdonald, A. H.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Freeson, Reginald

McGuire, Michael

Brown, Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

Galpern, Sir Myer

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Brown, R. w. (shoreditch & F'bury)

Buchan, Norman

Gardner, Tony

Mackintosh, John P.

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

Cordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

Cant, R. B.

Gregory, Arnold

McNamara, J. Kevin

Coe, Denis

Grey, Charles (Durham)

MacPherson, Malcolm

Coleman, Donald

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Concannon, J. D.

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Conlan, Bernard

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Crawshaw, Richard

Harper, Joseph

Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.)

Cronin, John

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Manuel, Archie

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Haseldine, Norman

Mapp, Charles

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Hazell, Bert

Marquand, David

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Heffer, Eric S.

Mellish, Robert

Dalyell, Tam

Henig, Stanley

Mendelson, J. J.

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Hobden, Dennis (Brighton. K'town)

Mikardo, Ian

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

Hooley, Frank

Millan, Bruce

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Horner, John

Moonman, Eric

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Howie, W.

Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Delargy, Hugh

Huckfield, L.

Murray, Albert

Dell, Edmund

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Newens, Stan

Dempsey, James

Hunter, Adam

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swlndon)

Oakes, Gordon

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

Ogden, Eric

Robinson, w. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Oram, Albert E.

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Ward, Dame Irene

Orbach, Maurice

Rose, Paul

Watkins, David (Consett)

Orme, Stanley

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

Oswald, Thomas

Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

Wellbeloved, James

Palmer, Arthur

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Whitaker, Ben

Pardoe, John

Sheldon, Robert

Whitlock, William

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Shore, Peter (Stepney)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Short, Rt. Hn. Edward(N 'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Pavitt, Laurence

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Pentland, Norman

Slater, Joseph

Winnick, David

Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

Spriggs, Leslie

Woodburn, Pt. Hn. A.

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Swain, Thomas

Woof, Robert

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Swingler, Stephen

Yates, Victor

Rees, Merlyn

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Reynolds, G. W.

Thornton, Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Tinn, James

Mr. Charles R. Morris and

Richard, Ivor

Urwin, T. W.

Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfodshire, S.)

Varley, Eric G.

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Nott, John

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Gower, Raymond

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Bell, Ronald

Gresham Cooke, R.

Peel, John

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

Hill, J. E. B.

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Hirst, Geoffrey

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Hordern, Peter

Russell, Sir Ronald

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hunt, John

Sharples, Richard

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

Clark, Henry

Kimball, Marcus

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Cooke, Robert

Kirk, Peter

Temple, John M.

Crowder, F. P.

Longden, Gilbert

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Tilney, John

Drayson, G. B.

Maddan, Martin

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Maude, Angus

Farr, John

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Foster, Sir John

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter and

Gibson-Watt, David

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Mr. John Peyton.

Ordered,
That, during the remainder of the Session, where, in respect of a bill for imposing, renewing, varying or repealing any charge upon the people, either—

(a) Mr. Speaker has been informed that no general agreement to allot a specified number of days or portions of days to the consideration of the Bill in Committee or on report has been reached, or

(b) any general agreement of which Mr. Speaker has been informed is, in the opinion of a Minister of the Crown, working ineffectively,

a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown that the Business Committee shall make recommendations to the House as to the number of days or portions of days to be allotted to the consideration of the bill in committee, on report or on third reading, and as to the time by which proceedings on any
268
parts into which they may divide the bill shall be brought to a conclusion in committee or on report and any further recommendations which may in their opinion be necessary to ensure the bringing to a conclusion of the proceedings on the parts of the bill allotted to those days or portions of days; and the question on such a motion shall be put not more than two hours after the commencement of proceedings thereon;
That for the purposes of this Order the Business Committee shall consist of the Chairmen's Panel together with not more than five other Members to be nominated by Mr. Speaker:
That, when the Business Committee shall have reported the resolution or resolutions containing their recommendations to the House, the provisions of sub-paragraph (c) of Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) shall apply to the proceedings on any motions for the consideration of such report and on the consideration of the said report.

DRUG PEDDLING
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this H6use do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]
11.42 p.m.
Sir Charles Taylor: I am sincerely sorry for the right hon. Lady the Minister of State, who had to be here very early this morning—which was not my fault—and who again has to be here late this evening, but, in the words of the immortal Lewis Carroll, "Time never meant anything to Alice".
We have to do something to stop the drug pedlar. The situation has become desperate, so much so that a doctor said not very long ago that the medical profession might just as well give up the present generation as hopeless, write them off, and start concentrating on preventing the next generation from going the same way. One can hardly pick up a newspaper today without reading of one or more cases of drug takers being caught and fined. My local newspaper, the Eastbourne Herald Chronicle, reported on the front page last Saturday the case of a 19-year-old warehouseman who was caught and fined £100 for unlawfully possessing drugs. He said that he got them from a local public house.
The News of the World yesterday, told the most dreadful story of a doctor prescribing 120 heroin tablets a day for a drug addict. That addict sold them to young boys and young girls, one of whom was only 15 years of age. The Nigerian who peddled the heroin left behind him a trail of misery and despair. Once his victims were firmly hooked on the pills that he gave them, he cut off their supply and watched them squirm, pleading for him to give them what I believe is called a "fix". Last week an inquest was held in Reigate on an 18-year-old girl who was one of this evil man's victims. The coroner recorded death from heroin addiction.
The story continues, day after day, month after month. It has now reached the most dreadful proportions. On 27th February, there was a television programme on B.B.C.l which showed the backs of three self-confessed drug takers being interviewed by a member of the Twenty-Four Hours' team of interviewers. One of them explained that he had been
270
kept in a 15 guineas a week flat by a drug pedlar for the sole purpose of selling drugs to other people.
Immediately after that programme I got on to Scotland Yard and asked them what they were doing to pick up the people who had been on that programme. Subsequently, I asked a Question in the House and I got a very unsatisfactory Answer from the right hon. Lady the Minister of State. On 6th April I received a letter from the hon. Lady asking if I would give her further particulars. I replied saying:
"I do not know that I can give you any more information than that in the television interview it was stated that one of the drug pedlers admitted having been kept in a fifteen guineas a week flat by a drug procurer I still cannot understand why, upon my advice, the police did not pick up the three persons interviewed in this B.B.C. programme which could easily have been done. … Were not the B.B.C. guilty of compounding a felony in not giving information to the police in the first place?"
I got a reply from the right hon. Lady, dated 18th April, thanking me for the information I had given her referring to the complaint I had made about gang warfare and gambling interests. I had not written to the right hon. Lady about gang warfare and gambling interests, but about drug peddling.
Not until 26th April did I get another letter from the right hon. Lady, in which she said:
"Thank you for your letter about self-confessed drug pedlars on the television programme. The police made inquiries. … One stated that he had no fixed abode and the other two gave a post office address. Efforts to trace them have, however, been without success.
You asked whether the B.B.C were guilty of compounding a felony. Apart from the difficulty of proving that anyone had evidence on which action could be taken, drug offences are not felonies."
I suppose that the B.B.C. paid these people to appear on television. I should have thought that it was deplorable for the B.B.C. to put on such a programme advertising drug peddling and drug taking. I am not a member of the Flying Squad, but I could have got round to the B.B.C. in two or three minutes and picked up these three men. I cannot see why the police did not pick them up for questioning.
So far, I have concentrated my remarks on the drug pedlars and drug takers, but I now want to consider the question of

271
where these drugs come from. Presumably, they can only be bought on prescription. During the war, Scotland Yard had a list of doctors who were prepared to sell bogus certificates to young men eligible for military service, saying that they suffered from epilepsy. Scotland Yard explained to me that they were unable to take action against these doctors, because if they took action against a particular doctor half a dozen others would confirm that the purchaser of the certificate really did suffer from epilepsy.
These doctors were a disgrace to their profession, a profession which, I believe, is 99·9 per cent. honourable in every way. In the same way, I suppose that there are today doctors who, for their own gain, are prepared to give prescriptions to drug pedlars and addicts. Most of those drugs, as we know only too well, find their way through the sleazy "pubs" and the bad coffee-houses into the pockets of the teen-agers and others in search of a thrill. One has read recently of cases where a whole year's supply of drugs has been prescribed by a doctor, presumably because he does not wish to sign the prescriptions too often, two or three times a week.
It is not right for any doctor to give any patient, drug addict or otherwise, a year's supply of drugs. In any case, I do not believe that any doctor should give a patient more than a week or a few days' supply. This is bound to lead to trouble and abuse.
I hope that as a result of this debate the Home Office will consider reviewing all the rules and regulations applying to drugs prescriptions. I hope that if any doctor is caught in this wicked trade, the penalties will be most severe. I am sorry that the universities seem to be a hot-bed of drug taking. Maybe some of the students, having been crammed at school, are trying to keep up at university. They may have got four or five A levels at school and feel that to make good at university they must take "pep" pills.
I must say a word about the "pop" groups. These seem to be the stars of today. When I was at school and university, people like Jack Hobbs and Sandham and Lionel Tennyson were the schoolboy heroes, as cricketers. Or there were the footballers such as "Wakers", who was
272
until recently a member of this House, and Stanley Matthews—those sort of people were our heroes. Now it seems to be the "pop" groups who are the heroes, and, unfortunately, many of them are drug addicts. They are setting a vicious and beastly example to their fans.
11.54 p.m.
Dr. David Kerr: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene very briefly to deal with one or two of the misconceptions which the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor), in his praiseworthy attempt to draw attention to this dreadful problem, has demonstrated. I refer particularly to those charges against some of my colleagues in the profession.
It is not axiomatically true that the prescription of 120 heroin tablets is necessarily a criminal act, or even an act of misjudgment. It may be an act of kindness on the part of a doctor who, knowing that he is dealing with an addict, and knowing the dreadful consequences which that addict would suffer from withdrawal of the drug, prescribes the drugs deliberately, knowing what is involved.
I hope that the hon. Member will not press the charge which he made, that this was a dreadful thing to do. What was dreadful was that the addict made the drugs available to others. There are two kinds of drug pedlars. There are the addicts who, and this is recognised in the Government's Dangerous Drugs Bill, are suffering from an illness, and the only effective treatment open to them is to take more drugs. This means making drugs available, and perhaps encouraging others to become addicts. For this group of people we should combine censure with a good deal of sympathy and understanding.
The other group are the men and women, who are not addicts and who bring the drugs into this country, or dispose of them here without the excuse of being addicts. Society cannot condemn them sufficiently, or express deeply enough its loathing for these white slugs of society. Those are the people—not the "pop" groups, not the already addicted sufferers, but the cold calculating, money-grabbing, battening pedlars—that we want to catch.
I hope very much that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will be able to say something about the proposals of the Home Office.
11.55 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): I am sorry, but in my letters to the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) two inquiries which he had made were not confused; he had written about the television broadcast and had telephoned my office about gang warfare.
Sir C. Taylor Sir C. Taylor indicated dissent.
Miss Bacon: My information was that the hon. Member had telephoned. It may be that some other hon. Member had telephoned and the hon. Member had been mistaken for him. My information was that the hon. Member had telephoned about gang warfare. That was the reason for the letter.
Many of the matters which the hon. Member raised at the beginning of his speech have been discussed at great length daring the last few weeks on the Dangerous Drugs Bill, which I introduced on Second Reading and which has just completed its Committee stage. That Bill is designed precisely to do what the hon. Member thinks should be done: that is, to see that drugs are supplied only through special treatment centres, which will do away with individual doctors prescribing drugs for drug addicts.
I do not know whether the hon. Member has been following all our debates, but we had an interesting debate in the House on the whole question of drugs. We then had the Second Reading debate on the Dangerous Drugs Bill. The Bill will shortly come before the House on Report stage and Third Reading. The hon. Member will therefore, I think, agree that many of the things for which he asked at the beginning of his speech are being done.
I come now to the prosecutions which, the hon. Member thought, should have been made as a result of the television programme in February.
Sir C. Taylor: Interrogation.
Miss Bacon: Well, interrogation. It was a television programme, whether it is called an interrogation——
Sir C. Taylor: I was not asking for a prosecution. I was asking for an interrogation of the people in the programme.
Miss Bacon: Yes; I will come to that.
274
The police have been very vigilant indeed in tracking down drug pedlars and people who have drugs in their possession. I am informed by the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan area that from 1st January to 25th April this year, there were 810 arrests for drug offences within the Metropolitan area alone. If we read the newspapers, every day we can learn of the hard work which is being done by the police, not only in London, but all over the country, in tracking down these people.
The hon. Member has said that he telephoned the B.B.C. after the broadcast——
Sir C. Taylor: No; the police.
Miss Bacon: He said that he telephoned the police and asked why they had not caught up with these people. First——
Sir C. Taylor Sir C. Taylor rose——
Miss Bacon: My time to reply is short.
Sir C. Taylor: I am sorry to interrupt, but the right hon. Lady is misquoting me. I telephoned the police and asked them to go and pick up the three men.
Miss Bacon: Yes, I know. That is what I am coming to. The hon. Member is wasting the time which I have to answer what he has said.
First, before the police can pick up the men, they must find them. Even if they had been waiting outside the television studios when the broadcast was made, it would have been impossible to pick up those men because, as is frequently the case, this was a recorded television broadcast, which had been recorded some days previously. Therefore, even if the police had known what was coming on television and if they had been waiting outside the doors of the television studio, they would not have been able to pick up the men.
I agree with the hon. Member that it is to be deplored that criminals should be able to talk openly or even to boast about their crimes without being apprehended. The fact that something is said on television, however, is not necessarily an indication that it is true. I do not know what the truth was in this programme. But men who talk about their

275
alleged crimes are unlikely to be the most truthful of people. Even if they happen to be criminals and to have committed the offences which they allege, a confession on television is unlikely to carry much weight in a court of law if the person denies it when confronted by the police.
As far as drugs are concerned, it is the experience of the police that any legal action is only likely to be successful if people are found in possession of drugs which can be used as evidence. As I have said, the police are very vigilant in looking for those who are in possession of drugs.
The hon. Member suggested that the peddlers in the television programme on peddlers should have been apprehended, but, as I have explained, this was a recorded programme; so they could not have been apprehended immediately. On the following morning, however, the police approached the B.B.C. who, in due course, supplied a script of the programme and information about the three men who had been interviewed as drug peddlers. Two gave names which could not be traced by the police and the third one gave only a Christian name. One said that he was of no fixed abode and the other two gave as an address a post office in Brighton. Further inquiries have been made by the police in Brighton but it has not been possible to trace these men.
The hon. Gentleman has said that one of the alleged drug pedlars on the programme said that he had been kept in a 15-guinea a week flat by a drug procurer. That is so; I have read the script of the television programme. But later in the programme the same person said that he had been convicted for drug offences, had served a term in prison and that subsequently he had had no dealings with drugs. If that is so—I am not saying that it is true—it would have been impossible for the police to have arrested this man a second time if he had already served a period in prison for that offence. If this aspect of the interview is accepted, there would appear to be little likelihood that, even if the men could be identified, the police would be able to obtain sufficient evidence to gain a conviction.
I have already given the figures for the number of drug offences between January
276
and April in the Metropolitan area. In 1966, there were more convictions for drug offences than in any previous year. Convictions under the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1965, were 1,174, an increase of over 50 per cent. in one year. Last year, there were 1,261 convictions under the Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act, 1964. I think these figures leave no doubt that the police have been acting energetically. We are studying ways in which the police effort against drug peddling can be helped and encouraged.
In many areas police organisation to give attention to drug problems is being reviewed. A number of forces are drawing upon the special experience of the Drug Squad at Scotland Yard, and a closer liaison is being fostered with the Drugs Branch at the Home Office. We at the Home Office are in consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers about the adequacy of police powers of search.
I have mentioned in recent debates our concern to secure improved standards in the safe keeping of drugs. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has put certain proposals before the representative associations of pharmacists, drug manufacturers and wholesalers and it may be that he will propose some strengthening of the law at a later stage of the proceedings of the Dangerous Drugs Bill, now before Parliament. The Bill itself, as I have said, will pave the way to closer control over supplies of drugs to addicts. We have also been giving close attention to the question of teen-age clubs where drug traficking is a problem. As the hon. Member will know, the Bill which was introduced in another place by the Lord Chief Justice has now gone through all its stages in this House.
Recent debates have shown general sympathy with the plight of drug addicts and their need for treatment. However, prevention is better than cure. The Government fully accept the hon. Member's concern for effective enforcement of controls, but we do not underestimate the task facing police and Customs officers in detecting and stopping illicit traffic. The challenge of drug peddling is complex and formidable, but I assure the hon. Member that we shall continue to meet it with vigour and enterprise.
I also assure the hon. Member that he is wrong in thinking that the police

277
could just have picked up these people——
Sir C. Taylor: So they could.
Miss Bacon:—who had given this interview on television. It just was not possible for the police to do that. They did what they could, but, in the absence of their names and addresses, they could do no more. Indeed, even if the police had found their names and addresses it might not have been easy to prove that an offence had taken place, since what was described might have occurred some years previously; that is, even if what these people had been saying on television was true.
As I have pointed out, I think that the hon. Member is under the impression that if he had telephoned the B.B.C. immediately——
Sir C. Taylor: Within minutes.
Miss Bacon:—or within minutes, the police could have rushed to the Television Centre, waited outside and caught these people. That would not have been possible, because this programme, like most programmes of this kind, was recorded, and that was probably done some days earlier. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will recognise that we and the police did all we could and that he is really asking us to do the impossible.
Sir C. Taylor: Before the right hon. Lady sits down, would she at least utter one word of condemnation against the B.B.C. for putting on such a disgraceful programme?
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes past Twelve o'clock.

SOCIAL SECURITY
  Widow's Pension
  Widow's Pension
  Benefits
  Benefits
  Selective Employment Tax
  Selective Employment Tax
  Sickness Benefit (Form BF161)
  Sickness Benefit (Form BF161)
  Graduated Pension Scheme
  Graduated Pension Scheme
  Retirement Pensions
  Retirement Pensions
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Dyspepsia (Aspirin)
  Dyspepsia (Aspirin)
  National Health Service (Cost)
  National Health Service (Cost)
  Group Practice Surgery, Basingstoke
  Group Practice Surgery, Basingstoke
  Social Welfare (Voluntary Organisations)
  Social Welfare (Voluntary Organisations)
  WELSH COURTS (INTERPRETER'S REMUNERATION)
  WELSH COURTS (INTERPRETER'S REMUNERATION)
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Cost of Living
  Cost of Living
  Industrial Tribunals
  Industrial Tribunals
  Government Training Centres
  Government Training Centres
  Shipbuilding Employers' Federation (Lock-Out)
  Shipbuilding Employers' Federation (Lock-Out)
  Employment (Highlands and Islands)
  Employment (Highlands and Islands)
  Programmed Instruction Centre
  Programmed Instruction Centre
COAL
  Durham Collieries (Wages)
  Durham Collieries (Wages)
  Opencast Coal (Output)
  Opencast Coal (Output)
  Stocks
  Stocks
GAS
  North Sea Supplies (Coal Equivalent)
  North Sea Supplies (Coal Equivalent)
ELECTRICITY
  Nuclear Energy (Coal Equivalent)
  Nuclear Energy (Coal Equivalent)
  Fuel Elements
  Fuel Elements
  CZECHOSLOVAKIA (PRESS REPRESENTATIVES)
  CZECHOSLOVAKIA (PRESS REPRESENTATIVES)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  West Midlands (Waiting List)
  West Midlands (Waiting List)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Far East
  Far East
  Naval Contracts (Industrial Relations)
  Naval Contracts (Industrial Relations)
  Shipbuilding Employers' Federation (Lock-Out)
  Shipbuilding Employers' Federation (Lock-Out)
  R.A.F. Camp, Wartling
  R.A.F. Camp, Wartling
  Territorial Army Centre, Birmingham
  Territorial Army Centre, Birmingham
BOARD OF TRADE
  Animals (Importation)
  Animals (Importation)
  Industrial Projects (The Highlands)
  Industrial Projects (The Highlands)
  Cromer Inquiry (Terms of Reference)
  Cromer Inquiry (Terms of Reference)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Anthony John Roberts
  Anthony John Roberts
  School Crossing (Wembley)
  School Crossing (Wembley)
  Mountain and Cave Rescue Operations (Statutory Organisation)
  Mountain and Cave Rescue Operations (Statutory Organisation)
  Race Relations Board (Conciliation Officers)
  Race Relations Board (Conciliation Officers)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Selective Employment Tax
  Selective Employment Tax
  Nationalised Industries (Turnover)
  Nationalised Industries (Turnover)
  British Forces, Germany (Tripartite Talks)
  British Forces, Germany (Tripartite Talks)
  Companies (Profits and Taxation)
  Companies (Profits and Taxation)
  QUEEN'S AWARD TO INDUSTRY
  QUEEN'S AWARD TO INDUSTRY
  PUBLIC APPOINTMENTS
  PUBLIC APPOINTMENTS
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Textile Areas, Lancashire
  Textile Areas, Lancashire
  Prices and Incomes Act, 1966 (Orders)
  Prices and Incomes Act, 1966 (Orders)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Special School, Liverpool (Corporal Punishment)
  Special School, Liverpool (Corporal Punishment)
  Artistic Concerns
  Artistic Concerns
  Married Women Teachers
  Married Women Teachers
SCOTLAND
  Clubs (Topless Dresses)
  Clubs (Topless Dresses)
  Power Stations (Fuel-Ash)
  Power Stations (Fuel-Ash)
  Industrial Projects (Foyers)
  Industrial Projects (Foyers)
ROADS
  Trunk Road, Guestling
  Trunk Road, Guestling
  Battle-Hastings Road (Speed Limit)
  Battle-Hastings Road (Speed Limit)
  Motorway Service Areas (Report)
  Motorway Service Areas (Report)
RAILWAYS
  Luggage in Advance (Increased Charges)
  Luggage in Advance (Increased Charges)
WALES
  Roads
  Roads

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln

DRAGON REACTOR PROJECT
2.35 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will continue financial support to the Dragon reactor project at Winfrith Heath after the end of this year, and whether they will make a statement.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the signatories of the Dragon Agreement are considering further extension up to the end of March, 1970, and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority have declared their willingness to participate in such an extension.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether, if Euratom see fit not to continue to support this project, Her Majesty's Government will support it on their own?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government will have to decide that point when it arises but in the meantime we have asked that there should be an extraordinary meeting of the O.E.C.D., on, I believe, May 16, at which the question of participation will be discussed.

KIDNEY MACHINES
2.36 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans, if any, have been formulated to finance further research into the production of cheaper and more efficient kidney machines.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, financial aid from research and development funds will continue to be provided to encourage development of more efficient, safer and, it is hoped, cheaper apparatus for the intermittent dialysis treatment of patients with renal failure. Work directed to the improvement of techniques will also continue in universities. The equipment required includes the means not only of removing impurities from the blood but also of continuous monitoring of the patient during treatment. Manufacturers will, as hitherto, be supported by development contracts where appropriate, and by the purchase of items of equipment for evaluation. Financial assistance is provided by the Ministry of Health and the National Research Development Corporation specifically for work in this field. A number of manufacturers are themselves financing similar work.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that fairly satisfactory reply. May I ask him two supplementary questions? First, have the Ministry borne in mind the views of Dr. Shaldon, of the Finchley Centre, who advocates more home dialysis in these units? Secondly, have the Ministry given thought to the number of people who would be able to work productively in industry and elsewhere if more facilities were given to research into these machines?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, in answer to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question I would say that consideration has been given to the possibility of the provision of more home treatment units, but the fact is that it is not simply a question of providing equipment; it is necessary also to have trained personnel available for the purpose of monitoring or servicing the equipment.

695
That is where the shortage is at the present time. As to the second part of the noble Lord's question, by which I think he means to ask, "What are the numbers of people who could benefit from this kind of treatment?", I understand that at the moment there are about 120 people on these machines but that usefully the service could be extended to 1,000 patients; and it is hoped—it is the objective—that facilities will be extended to cover that number when not only the machines, not only the equipment, but the trained personnel also are available.

GREECE: MILITARY COUP AND HUMAN RIGHTS CONVENTION
2.39 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the attitude of their representatives and of the British delegation at the Council of Europe at Strasbourg to the motion deploring the military coup in Greece and, in particular, in view of the detention without trial of members of the democratic Opposition, including a respected ex-Prime Minister, to the proposal that the Committee of Ministers should pursue the matter through the European Human Rights Convention which has been ratified by the Government of Greece.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted an Order on the subject of Greece on April 26. No recommendations on the subject have been put to or considered by the Committee of Ministers, on which Her Majesty's Government are represented. But Her Majesty's Government have of course noted what was said in the Consultative Assembly, which evidently reflected the widespread concern among Greece's friends and allies over the troubles which she has been undergoing, and the particular concern of European Parliamentarians over the future of Parliamentary democracy in Greece.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him, first, how the representatives of the British Government and the British delegation voted on the resolution; and, secondly, whether he will press for the European Human Rights Convention to be applied to the many hundreds of political prisoners in Greece now, including not only the Left but even the ex-Prime Minister of the Centre?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, so far as the first part of my noble friend's supplementary question is concerned, delegates in the Consultative Assembly vote on their own responsibility. So far as the situation in Greece is concerned, this is developing from day to day, and I think it would be wrong at this stage for us to try to pass any positive or considered judgment on what has happened there, or is happening or might happen in the future. I understand, however, that a Minister of the new Greek Government has said that prominent political detainees will shortly be released, and that the thousands of persons detained for security reasons will have their cases reviewed in the near future.
LORD BROCKWAY: But, my Lords, is not much more at stake than this? Has not a military coup sabotaged a democratic election in Greece? Could my noble friend tell me how the British delegation voted on this resolution (about which he has not informed me), and also whether the Government are going to be satisfied with the absolute outrage against the Human Rights Convention which has been committed in Greece?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, so far as the votes of the delegates in the Assembly are concerned, I will let my noble friend have that information. I do not have it at the moment, because, as I say, these delegates vote on their own responsibility. So far as the general situation in Greece is concerned, I believe that it would be wrong, and might be counter-productive, to pass any judgment at this stage. The whole situation in Greece is in a state of flux. We may all have our hopes, our sincere hopes, about what may happen, but I believe that to make positive statements now might be provocative and could exacerbate the situation in Greece instead

697
of allowing it to develop in a way in which I hope—and we all hope—in the end will give satisfaction to us.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, having told us that the individual delegates vote on their own point of view, will the noble Lord confirm that it is also the case that the delegation are chosen from all three Parties in the House and that each delegate is therefore free, apart from any Party alliance, to vote as he or she thinks fit?
LORD CHALFONT: Yes, my Lords, of course that is so; nevertheless, I shall inform my noble friend how they voted.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, could the Minister give us an assurance that, deplorable as it is that people should be kept in prison without trial in Greece, Her Majesty's Government are equally concerned about the situation in other parts of the world, such as in Tanzania and other parts of Africa, where British citizens are kept in prison without trial?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, of course Her Majesty's Government are always concerned about the human rights of individuals all over the world. We shall endeavour always on these occasions to make our views known.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, could the noble Lord assure us that this affair in Greece is not having any harmful effect on NATO?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think it would be presumptuous of me to give any such assurance. All that I can say at this stage, on my own behalf and on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, is that it is naturally a source of great concern to us that a friend and ally of ours should be going through these troubles.

ASBESTOS MATERIALS AND HEALTH HAZARDS
2.46 p.m.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To asked Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on
698
the health hazards alleged to be associated with the use, in contemporary building construction, of materials made of, or containing a proportion of, asbestos.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, so far as I am aware, there is no evidence that building materials manufactured from asbestos present a health hazard, either to operatives engaged in construction or to the subsequent occupants of the building, provided that no dust arises from the absestos product. The dust produced from working asbestos materials, for example, sheeting, is dangerous to health. My right honourable friend the Minister of Labour is currently revising the Asbestos Industry Regulations for securing better control of the risk to workers using materials containing asbestos.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether his attention has been drawn to the report of Leeds University which indicates that, so far as the research they have undertaken is concerned, the health hazard occurs not only in respect of dust or to workmen using asbestos, but also in respect of other elements in the material and to those who live and work in buildings in which the material has been used? Whether this allegation is true I do not know; but it is of great concern to those of us who at the moment are responsible for decisions relating to big building construction in this country.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the research going on at Leeds University has not been brought to my attention, but I know from past experience at the Ministry of Defence that this subject is under close study in the field of naval construction. As I said in my Answer, the dust produced from working asbestos material is a danger to health, and research is going on intensively over a wide field to find out exactly what is this danger. I shall make a point of studying the report from the University mentioned.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, having studied this report, he will be good enough to make a further statement, if he thinks it

699
necessary, either to reassure us or, alternatively, to give point to the results of the research?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would raise the question again after I have had time to study the points he mentioned.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, could my noble friend let me know when the last Statutory Order designed to protect workers against the inhalation of asbestos dust, or in relation to other factors connected with the use of asbestos, was made?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer my noble friend today; but as part of the study that I promised the noble Lord, Lord Alport, I will look into this point and inform my noble friend.

BRITISH FORCES ON THE CONTINENT
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given Private Notice. The question is in these terms: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there is any statement to make on an agreement reached regarding British Forces on the Continent.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with permission, my noble friend Lord Chalfont will reply to this Question by way of a Statement at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
Brought from the Commons on Friday last and printed, pursuant to Standing Order No. 45; read 1a.

SLAUGHTER OF POULTRY BILL
2.49 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Lindgren.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Lindgren.)
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, before this Bill is passed may I say a few words of very warm congratulation and thanks to Her Majesty's Government for the way in which they have helped and expedited the passage of this Bill. Everybody knows that it is often a difficult and slow fight to get into legislation these matters which are of importance to those of us who feel strongly about the subject. The way in which the stages of this Bill have been passed has been extremely gratifying to us all.
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: My Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Somers, for what he has said. I am sure the whole House would wish to thank and congratulate my noble friend Lord Lindgren on the expeditious way in which he has managed to get this very important Bill through all its stages in this House. The Bill is very worth while; it has the support of the Government, and I am sure that it will receive the wholehearted support of this House.
On Question, Bill passed.

HOUSING SUBSIDIES BILL
2.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD KENNET): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. The House will not wish me to give any further account of it than we have had at earlier stages, but there are a couple of small points on which I promised to inform the House regarding certain consultations not concluded earlier. These have now been concluded. They concern the circumstances in which two special needs subsidies available under Clause 5 will be payable, and my right honourable friend's discussions with the local authority associations on this clause have now been concluded.
The Minister intends that the subsidy under Clause 5(1) should be payable on

701
approved dwellings provided by local authorities whose housing costs are high in relation to their resources. An authority's housing expenditure will be measured by adding up its rental income and any contribution it makes from its own rateable resources to the housing account in any relevant financial year. If this expenditure is markedly above the annual average for its class of authority when expressed in terms of the gross value of all the houses in its housing revenue account, then a payment will he made under Clause 5(1) on all approved dwellings completed in the following year. The amount of payment will be based on a sliding scale related to the amount by which an authority's expenditure exceeds the average. These arrangements have been accepted by the associations subject in the case of London to further information being obtained from the London boroughs.
As for the subsidy under Clause 5(2), the Minister intends that this should be payable in the context of the kind of scheme in which a major industrial establishment transfers from one part of the country to another, bringing workers with it, or where a major new industrial growth in one area attracts workers from other areas. This subsidy will act as an incentive provision. My right honourable friend has proposed a general formula with a sliding scale and subsidy related to the effect which the new housing would have on the authority's overall housing costs and hence on rents. This has been discussed with the associations and they have agreed that while the proposed scale seems generally satisfactory, it would be better not to lay down a rigid formula at the outset but to test the proposed scale on some actual cases as they arise. This is a new form of subsidy to promote industrial mobility and we shall want to see how it works out in practice.
My Lords, a Bill of this nature inevitably involves a great deal of consultation and discussion with the bodies who are to be involved in its subsequent administration. In some aspects the Bill is complicated and in respect of both Parts of it new ground is being broken. Subsidies to local authorities under Part I are calculated on quite a different basis from those provided in earlier legislation. Part II is an entirely new scheme which has had to be worked out from
702
scratch with no past experience to guide us at all. We have had a great deal of help and co-operation from the local authority associations on Part I and from the local authorities, building societies, insurance companies and the friendly societies in connection with Part II. The Government are grateful for this co-operation. The passing of this Bill does not, of course, solve all the problems; it is only the beginning. The new framework of housing subsidies for local authorities should provide a springboard for further advances in local authority housing, and likewise the provisions in Part II should give an added impetus to the expansion of owner-occupation. To that extent the Bill is only a starting point for greater efforts by all who are concerned in the production of homes in both the private and public sectors. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Kennet.)
2.55 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: My Lords, during the Committee stage I asked the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, about the progress of the negotiations between the Ministry and the local authority associations regarding a settlement of the criteria under which the special subsidies provided for in Clause 5 should be paid. I am very glad to hear that those negotiations have reached a broadly satisfactory conclusion. I raised the question in connection with the use in the Bill of the rather undesirable word "unreasonably", but I pointed out that it the local authorities as well as the Minister were satisfied that the arrangements were reasonable, there was, in my view, no cause for Parliament to concern itself further over that word. I am quite sure that the noble Lord is fully justified in the gratitude he has expressed to the local authority associations and all the other bodies who must have had to be consulted in relation to this Bill. I trust that, for his part, the noble Lord will agree that my noble friends and I have fulfilled the undertaking which we gave on Second Reading to do everything we could to speed the Bill towards the Statute Book.
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, as a President of one of the associations, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, for

703
the co-operation we have had from him, and also thank him for all that he has just said.
On Question, Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (LOAD LINES) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS BILL [H.L.]
2.59 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD WILLIS: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. Your Lordships will be relieved to hear that at this stage I do not intend to go again over the arguments we have had during the past few months on this Bill, but I should like to say two things. First I would very sincerely like to thank noble Lords on both sides of the House who have given me their cooperation in putting this Bill through its various stages. There have been remarkably few differences on principle: the House seems to have been prepared to accept the basic principles on which the Bill is based. There have been minor differences, and though these have not always been settled in favour of the minority, nevertheless they were settled amicably and in good spirit.
The other point I would make is to express the hope that the Government will take note of the discussions that have taken place on this Bill and of the support it has received generally. I have been astonished at the lack of opposition to it in public opinion. There has
704
been a tremendous swing in the last few years and I hope that when the Bill goes to another place the Government will give it early time. At a period in our history when the Government has to say "No" to so many things, it would be nice to have them say "Yes". When we go on discussing so many grim and seemingly dull subjects, as seems inevitable in Parliament, it would be nice if the Government would find time for a Bill which is designed to give pleasure, to give fun, to provide wider entertainment—above all, to provide something that would cost the Government nothing.
Moved. That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Willis.)
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am sure that all your Lordships are glad to see the end of this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, is right—the general principle has been widely accepted. There have been one or two disagreements on certain points, and although naturally I think that I was right, your Lordships have taken the view that I was wrong. I should like to congratulate the noble Lord on getting this measure through. It will give a great deal of pleasure. I hope that it will get a fair wind in another place, and that it will become law this Session.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN: My Lords, I should be grateful for the indulgence of the House so that I may give two reasons why I personally cannot accept the Bill. I apologise for not having been present at the earlier debates. I was brought up in a strictly Sabbatarian home and I reacted violently against it. I remember an old radical, who had spent many years fighting against the squire, in his old age saying to me sadly, "The old days were bad—the new ones are worse." My first reason for believing that the Bill is not necessary in the common interest is that it will deprive an increasing number of people of the pleasure, to which they are entitled, of a common holiday. It is no good telling me that we could have another day. I am a Bishop and I work on Sundays. I rarely have the enjoyment of pottering about, and I know the difference when we share a common day of leisure. I believe that for a large number of people the fact that there is a day when everybody else is at liberty is immensely

705
important, and therefore I oppose legislation which adds to the steadily growing commercial pressure to make capital out of our leisure.
Secondly, I believe that, apart from private duties of worship, there is the need in this highly pressurised society for one day which is leisurely, when you can potter about and do odd things without having to be herded together among an enormous number of people. I know that many people will do this of their own choice, but human nature being what it is a great many people will not do so if circumstances make it possible for them to escape from the responsibility of pursuing on their own initiative things of the mind and the spirit. I believe that the emphasis which the Bill places on commercialised entertainment is not in the best interests of the community, and therefore I cannot possibly support it.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, surely the reverend Prelate's argument is a little illogical. He pleads for people to do things on their own initiative. This Bill does not deny to anybody the right to do anything he wishes. It does not compel people to go to any entertainment whatsoever. They will be completely free to do anything they wish.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lady for her intervention. I thought that I had made it clear that the Bill does not force anybody to do anything which they do not wish to do. The point is that if by the custom of society it is possible to have a vast range of commercial pleasures, it makes it more difficult for many ordinary people to exercise their initiative, because they do not do it anyway.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, is it not the case that many people will have to do what they would rather not do, because if they do not agree to work on Sundays it might be impossible for them to keep their work on other days?
LORD STRATHCARRON: My Lords, as they will probably be receiving double time, they will perhaps be pleased to work on Sunday.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD WILLIS: My Lords, I did not realise that we should reopen this debate.
706
and I do not intend to follow along that line. I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, that the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Willis.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

MARINE &c. BROADCASTING (OFFENCES) BILL
3.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Sorensen.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Prohibition of acts connected with broadcasting from certain ships and aircraft, and from marine structures outside United Kingdom
3.—(1) If a broadcast is made—
(a) from a ship other than one registered in the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man or any of the Channel Islands while the ship is on the high seas; or
any of the persons mentioned in subsection (3) below who operates, or participates in the operation of, the apparatus by means of which the broadcast is made shall be guilty of an offence.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in subsection (1), after "broadcast", to insert:
"which is intended for general reception in the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man, any of the Channel Islands or any other country or territory which may be prescribed,".
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name. I think that it would be convenient to your Lordships if I spoke at the same time to Amendments Nos. 2 to 6. It must be questionable whether the United Kingdom Parliament can take quite such wide powers as at present exist in Clause 3(1). The effect of this clause is that any British citizen or subject may be prosecuted in the United Kingdom for broadcasting on the high seas anywhere in the world.

707
To take a somewhat fanciful hypothetical case, a Fijiian who broadcasts from a Japanese ship in the Pacific to Tahiti, when the broadcast is not illegal in Fiji, Japan or Tahiti, may be prosecuted in Edinburgh. But, of course, much less extreme cases could be envisaged.
The Postmaster General, in dealing with this point on Report stage in another place, relied on the Treaty Article I, and there is no doubt that we ought to do everything that we properly can to implement the Agreement. The fact remains that the high seas are not within our jurisdiction, nor normally are our subjects on or over the high seas, unless in British ships or planes. I think that we should be careful before we attempt to extend our jurisdiction.
The scheme for the Bill is basically to deal with broadcasts from territorial waters in British ships and planes by means of prohibiting the supply of services, and in that way to stop broadcasting from the high seas. We can go further to prevent our subjects from broadcasting to the United Kingdom even from the high seas, and our Amendment does so. It gives the Postmaster General power to add other countries to the list of areas to which British subjects cannot broadcast from the high seas. This can be done by Order, subject to Affirmative Resolution. We envisage other countries being added, as and when they pass laws similar to this Bill. I know that wireless waves know no boundaries, but it should be fairly simple to see what is the intended country of reception for broadcasts from any station, chiefly by language. The advantage of this method is that it encourages foreign countries to pass their own laws if they dislike broadcasts to them organised by Britons.
The four other Amendments are consequential. The theory is that they do not make it an offence to do acts in subsection (3) where these are done by Britons on the high seas, unless these acts relate to broadcasts which are illegal under subsections (1), (2) and (3), as we have amended them. Whether or not we have signed the Treaty, we do not think we should allow the Government to extend our jurisdiction without making a strong legal case and quoting precedent. In fact, the Treaty can be effective only when implemented by all the signatories; and
708
if they all have a law in the same terms as Clauses 3 and 4, with our Amendments, I think the effect will be entirely satisfactory. If not, why not? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 2, after ("broadcast") insert the said words.—(Lord Denham.)
LORD SORENSEN: First of all I would say that I appreciate very much that the basic intention of the Bill has received the support of all Parties. I say that because some misconception exists in part of the public mind. There is the assumption in some quarters that this Bill is designed to prohibit all kinds of commercial broadcasting and, indeed, the broadcasting extensively of "pop" music. That is not so. We may disagree in the Committee on certain minor matters, but the basic purpose of the Bill receives general support.
I appreciate also that the Amendments moved by the noble Lord are designed to assist the passage of the Bill—they are not wrecking Amendments—and everyone in the Committee respects the intention of the noble Lord as expressed in his remarks. But I have to say that these Amendments would make the operation of Clause 3, which deals with broadcasting stations on the high seas, entirely dependent on proving where the broadcasters themselves intended their broadcasts to be received. That would make the position of the prosecution impossibly difficult. If the Amendments were made, it would also not be possible for this country to ratify and implement the European Agreement, because our legislation would be too restrictive and would not fulfil the minimum requirements of that Agreement. I heard the noble Lord say that he hoped and anticipated that more general agreement among other Governments would assist in this direction, and I will bear that point in mind.
One is therefore forced to the conclusion that either these Amendments are misconceived or they will not work. If a broadcast contains no intention of where the broadcaster intends it to be received, it may be possible for the courts to draw their own conclusions. But if the culpability of the broadcaster were made dependent on what his intentions were, he would have a wonderful scope for evasion. He would so word his broadcast by certain expressions, such as

709
"Hello Sweden", "Hello Canada", "Hello Tristan da Cunha" or "Hello Tibet", or any other invitation, in order to disguise his intention, and would thus make a mockery of the law. In other words, it would be a deliberate attempt to evade the intention of the Bill or, as ultimately we hope, the Act.
To push this one stage further, take, for example, the offence formed by Clause 4(3)(a), that of furnishing or agreeing to furnish a ship. The prosecution would have to prove that the provider of the ship knew not only that it was to be used for broadcasting, but also that the people engaged in broadcasting had intended their broadcasts to be received in certain specific geographical areas. That would be an impossible position in which to place any prosecution.
The Bill is deliberately drafted so as to catch all broadcasting operating on the high seas. Broadcasting on the high seas is forbidden by International Law. The culpability of the offenders does not depend upon where they intend their broadcasts to be received, or on such matters as whether, for example, a Swedish ship happens to be in a position where its authorised wireless communications suffer interference from the pirates. This does not mean that this country is ignoring those provisions of the European Agreement which limit its extent to certain categories of stations. As a matter of policy we are legislating against all high seas broadcasts. But if we were asked by another country to take action against a station which was causing offence to it, we should have regard, in particular, to whether that country had itself accepted the obligation of the Agreement and whether the offending station was in one of the categories of stations against which the parties to the European Agreement undertake to protect each other.
There is the further point that, although we are bound to fulfil the minimum obligations which we have accepted by entering into this Agreement, the Council of Europe envisage that signatories may elect to legislate in wider terms by providing, in Article IV that nothing in the Agreement shall be deemed to prevent a contracting party from doing so. In those circumstances, I trust that the noble Lord will withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DENHAM: I am grateful to the noble Lord for the full explanation that he has given. We shall obviously have to study his remarks with some care to see how far they meet our case. I do not intend to press the Amendment any further at this stage, and beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): There is a Manuscript Amendment, at page 2, line 24, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c).
LORD STRANGE: I have to apologise to the Committee. There has been a slight mistake, and it is all my fault. It so happens that the Amendment should be to Clause 5. It is not the fault of my secretary, but I think I have traced it down to this: that I have a collection of antique typewriters, and it may have been typed on the high-stepping Oliver of 1907, because that substitutes a three for a five. I apologise to your Lordships for this error.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I understand that the noble Lord does not wish to move either of the Manuscript Amendments on the Supplementary List, and wishes to replace them by a Manuscript Amendment to Clause 5.
LORD STRANGE: That is correct.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Prohibition of acts relating to matter broadcast from ships, aircraft, &c.
(3) The acts, and, where relevant, the intent and circumstances, referred to in subsection (1) above are the following namely:
(b) making a literary, dramatic or musical work with intent that a broadcast of the work may be made as aforesaid;
(c) making an artistic work with intent that the work may be included in a television broadcast made as aforesaid;
(f) publishing any advertisement relating to a station from which broadcasts are made as aforesaid or are to be so made or the times at which any broadcasts are to be so made.
LORD STRANGE LORD STRANGE moved a Manuscript Amendment to leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) of subsection (3). The noble Lord

711
said: This is the Amendment I had intended to move, and I again apologise to your Lordships. It seems to me from these two paragraphs that if one writes a work of art, or a book, or a sermon, or a newscast, as they call it, or a "blurb" for an advertisement, and it is broadcast from one of these pirate radio stations, one is a criminal and liable to criminal punishment. I believe strongly that this is against the freedom and rights of the individual to say what he wants when he wants to. We have fought two hard wars to try to preserve these rights, and it is wrong for us to curtail a writer, who must be free, provided he is not doing anything immoral or unpleasant or causing serious trouble by his writing. I do not think it right that a man who wishes to write a sermon to be broadcast on these radio stations should be penalised and made a criminal for doing so.
I feel very strongly about this. Her Majesty's Government subscribed to the European Commission on Freedom for the Individual. I consider that they are contravening their membership of this Commission by introducing such a clause in the Bill, and I believe that the European Commission will speak very strongly to them—as strongly as a Commission can speak to a Government. It is entirely wrong and against the freedom of the individual, and there must be many writers, even writers to The Times or any other paper, who agree with me.
I shall not press the Amendment, because I have made the mistake I have already referred to—or, rather, the Oliver typewriter has—and because I feel it would be unfair to Her Majesty's Government to do so. They have not had time to do any homework on it. But I shall certainly move it again on the Report stage.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 19, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c).—(Lord Strange.)
LORD STRANGE: I ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in subsection (3)(f), to leave out all words after the second "made". The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment, too, on
712
behalf of my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross. This subsection seems to have caused a great deal of difficulty, and we think it is the Postmaster General's own fault that this difficulty has arisen. His speeches in Committee suggest that publications dealing with pirate stations and containing matter which is normally not thought to be an advertisement are still intended to be caught. Whether or not prosecutions are to be brought only by the Director of Public Prosecutions, we strongly object to creating a new criminal offence not specifically defined.
I understand that in no Act is there an adequate definition of "advertisement" for these purposes. We have concocted one, which we hope is specific enough for proof of an offence but equally covers the wider principle which Her Majesty's Government wish to have covered. It is, as near as we can make it, a form of words which fulfils the Postmaster General's words on Report (in col. 340 of the Commons Hansard). If we do not amend this clause, the point about benefiting the station cannot be discerned simply from the word "advertisement" and it will require Case Law, with great uncertainty meanwhile, to establish the limits of this offence. The drafting must therefore be bad.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 34, leave out from ("made") to end of line 35.—(Lord Denham.)
LORD SORENSEN: I want to express warm appreciation of the constructive efforts of the noble Lord in this matter. May I, in advance, assure him that this matter has given great concern to the Postmaster General. He is not quite satisfied that the wording so kindly proposed by the noble Lord is the appropriate one, but if the noble Lord will withdraw the Amendment for a while and allow us to ponder on it, at a later stage, on Report, we may come to an agreement precisely on the issue which the noble Lord has raised.
LORD DENHAM: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, and with very great pleasure I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.25 p.m.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
"( ) selling or offering or exposing for sale any article or substance knowing the same to have been advertised by means of a broadcast made as aforesaid within the period of three months preceding the date of such sale or offer or exposure for sale."
The noble Lord said: I must make my apologies to the Committee for not being in my place when my previous Amendment was called. I did not expect the business to be dealt with so early, and I had other business. The two Amendments are linked. As your Lordships will see, they are very simple Amendments, although perhaps expressed in rather technical language. The first Amendment, which I suppose I should not now refer to, is intended merely to cover the possibility that a British company might be controlled by a company in France, Belgium, or somewhere else, and might not be responsible for what the parent company did.
The Amendment which I am now moving is in effect a corollary to that. If the advertising has been done by a company which is outside British control, British operators selling the product should not be penalised unless the sale has been done within three months of the advertisement of the particular product. The intention of the two Amendments was entirely that of closing what appeared to be certain loopholes in the Bill. It is really a matter for the Government to determine whether these loopholes exist and whether these Amendments are necessary, and I offer this Amendment entirely subject to the Government's attitude to it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 35, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Archibald.)
BARONESS PHILLIPS: I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that I must reply to the Amendment which he has just been moving, and not to the previous Amendment, though in fact, as he rightly said, the principle is allied. Her Majesty's Government appreciate the purpose of the noble Lord; namely, that the Amendment is an attempt to strengthen the Bill, and it is taken in that spirit. Unfortunately, however, I have to ask the noble Lord to withdraw
714
this Amendment because its effect would be rather far-reaching.
Many of the advertisements put out by the pirate radio stations are for products which are in very common use: for example, a particular brand of cigarette. This Amendment would mean that if the advertising agents of a tobacco company placed an advertisement for one of their products with a pirate radio station, every tobacconist throughout the country would be committing an offence by selling that brand. No doubt there would be many cases where the shopkeeper was not aware even that the product had been advertised. Also, he would in some cases have large stocks of the advertised product which had suddenly become worthless, and it would be a great temptation to disregard the law and continue to sell the products. It would be difficult to convince the public and magistrates that selling a product, in itself a perfectly harmless thing, was something that merited legal proceedings and the penalties set out in this Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will accept this explanation given on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, and agree to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD ARCHIBALD: Although I am ashamed to confess that I am a heavy smoker myself, I cannot find any tears for the tobacconists for whom the noble Lady has made such an eloquent plea. I should not very much care if they did come undone as a result of some restriction. Nevertheless, I accept her argument, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Penalties and legal proceedings]:
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM: moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "Proceedings for an offence under this Act" and insert:
"In the case of an offence under this Act which is not committed—

(a) in the United Kingdom; or

(b) in external waters; or

(c) in a ship or aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man or any of the Channel Islands,

proceedings".
The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment on behalf of my noble

715
friend Lord Colville of Culross. Subsection (3) enables an offence under this Bill to be prosecuted anywhere in the United Kingdom, regardless of where it was committed. The precedent, we understand, is the Continental Shelf Act 1964. This is, however, no real precedent. Under this Bill, offences may be committed in three sorts of places, and I will deal with them separately.
First, they may be committed on the land of the United Kingdom. There seems to us to be no reason why the ordinary jurisdiction of Her Majesty's sheriffs in the superior courts should not be used. Why is there any greater difficulty in providing a venue for offences under this Bill than for, say, a complicated commercial fraud? Secondly, offences may be committed in territorial waters. So far as we can see, the jurisdiction here is technically in the Admiralty, but under the Admiralty Offences Act 1844, the Territorial Waters Jurisdiction Act 1878, and the Administration of Justice Act 1964, Schedule 1, paragraph 5, there is machinery for the ordinary courts to deal with offences in England and Scotland. The Act of 1878 applies to Scotland, but we are not sure what else applies.
I think there is a technical flaw in the Amendment on this point, in that we can find no jurisdiction to deal with summary offences, as opposed to indictable, offences in territorial waters. We should be grateful if Her Majesty's Government would explain the situation and consider whether they ought to have some general legislation in regard to summary offences, rather than make special provision under this Bill. Meanwhile, since all offences under the Bill may be dealt with on indictment (that is under Clause 6(1)(b), the existing jurisdiction, should be annulled. Thirdly, there are offences committed on the high seas. This Amendment leaves offences committed here to be dealt with as under the Bill at present, and to this extent the Continental Shelf Act is a good precedent and we do not object to following it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 21, leave out ("Proceedings for an offence under this Act") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Denham.)
BARONESS PHILLIPS: I think Members of your Lordships' House will recall that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, made this point on Second Reading. He said then that we have a complicated system of law and he referred to the various Acts, to some of which the noble Lord has just referred. The noble Viscount mentioned the Territorial Waters Jurisdiction Act 1878. the Merchant Shipping Act and the Magistrates' Courts Act. He described the position that we should all like to see when he was referring to these particular Acts, but I would venture to say that the state of the law relating to territorial waters, and to other waters around our shores, was found on examination to be vague, and the draftsmen of the Bill had a difficult task in producing wording which would ensure that all waters around our shores were effectively covered, without at the same time casting doubt on the interpretation, for the purposes of other Acts, of such expressions as "in the United Kingdom" and "in territorial waters adjacent to the United Kingdom".
I can give your Lordships an assurance that an offence under this Bill committed on land in Peebles (and we chose to refer to Peebles, because it was assumed that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, would move this Amendment and would probably make some reference to Scotland) would not be prosecuted outside Scotland. I picked on Peebles as an example because it is unmistakably inland in Scotland. If I were to give the same assurance about an offence committed in Edinburgh I should have to choose my words rather carefully. An offence committed in an office in Prince's Street, Edinburgh, would not be prosecuted outside Scotland. Indeed, it is most unlikely that an offence committed anywhere in Edinburgh would be prosecuted outside Scotland, but when I say "anywhere in Edinburgh" I am referring to an area the boundaries of which I do not know precisely.
All this may seem to be mere pedantry. but the Government have been firmly advised that any well-meant attempt to adapt Clause 6(3) to reflect the intention that Scottish cases shall be dealt with in Scotland, English cases in England, and so on, would result in wording which. if

717
it had any legal effect at all, would merely open up loopholes for the pirates to exploit. What the Government seek to do in the present clause is to present something which is unobjectionable but which is nevertheless an effective safeguard against the possibility that any prosecution which was clearly appropriate to one part of the kingdom might be brought in another part. The legal authorities in England and Wales, in Scotland, and in Northern Ireland are entirely content, having regard to the existence of Clause 6(5), that Clause 6(3) cannot be used to divert into one part of the kingdom proceedings which are clearly appropriate to another part. In the circumstances, I hope that the noble Lord will accept this and will withdraw the amendment.
LORD DENHAM: I am again most grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation. I shall have to study it and consult with my noble friend about it, but for the moment I beg leave to withdrawn the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Short title and commencement]:
3.35 p.m.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, to leave out subsection (2), and to insert:
"(2) This Act shall not come into operation before the expiry of one month beginning with the day on which it is passed, but subject thereto it shall come into operation on a day to be appointed by Her Majesty in Council."
The noble Lord said: In the Daily Mail on Friday last there was a news item which stated that the Amendment which I am now moving would, if carried, destroy the purpose of the Bill. But I can assure your Lordships that this is not a wrecking Amendment: on the contrary, it is designed to strengthen the Bill and to make it work. Without it, the Bill would not achieve its purpose.
As I told your Lordships on Second Reading, Her Majesty's Government could, and should, have introduced this Bill as soon as the European Agreement was signed on January 22, 1965—over two years ago. Had they done so then, the Bill would have achieved its object
718
of sinking the pirate ships without trace. But they did not do so, and, whatever their reasons for the period of inaction, they have by their delay allowed a situation to develop under which this Bill, by itself, will not now be effective. Let me explain my reasons for saying this.
The first pirate ship to come on the air was Radio Caroline, which started broadcasting in May, 1964. This was followed quickly by Radio Atlanta, and both ships were anchored outside the three-mile limit off Frinton. Shortly afterwards, a gentleman who up to then had sung "pop" (rather unsuccessfully), under the name of "Screaming Lord Sutch", occupied a disused Fort on Shivering Sands and started broadcasting from there. In September, Mr. Sutch (one must assume that the noble and screaming Lord renounced his title at the time that it was fashionable to do so), as he stood in the 1964 General Election, handed over his station to another company, and Radio Sutch became Radio City.
Radio Caroline then merged with Radio Atlanta. As a result of this agreement, Radio Caroline became Caroline North and moved round the coast to a new anchorage off the Isle of Man, and Radio Atlanta became Caroline South, and remained off Frinton, where it was joined in December, 1964, by another ship, controlled by a new company, which started broadcasting as Radio London. The net result of this piratical general post was that when the European Agreement was signed, on January 22, 1965, there were three ships and one fort broadcasting: Caroline North, off the Isle of Man; Caroline South and Radio London, off Frinton; and Radio City, on Shivering Sands. None of the other pirates had yet started.
Throughout 1964 my noble and right honourable friends who then spoke for the Government said they would bring in legislation to stop pirate radio when the European Treaty had been signed, and it was assumed that the Labour Government would do the same. Already the pirates had built up a considerable audience. Radio Caroline claimed that their listeners had by then reached about 8 million Radio London, which had been going only a month, between 2 and 3 million. But, so far as the listeners were concerned, this Bill, if introduced

719
then, might have been unpopular but would have been expected. People enjoyed "pop" while it was being broadcast, but they knew then that it was only a matter of time before the Government would stop unlicensed broadcasting.
So far as the pirate broadcasters themselves were concerned, they were not then in anything like as strong a position as they are now. They had taken a gamble, and it had paid off. Radio Caroline would, I think, have shown a profit over the whole venture; Radio London would probably have achieved a working profit by that time, but would not have shown a profit over their capital investment, I am not sure about Radio City, but they have now ceased broadcasting after being prosecuted in February this year. This Bill would have put all the pirates out of business had it been passed then. Now, two years later, there is a very different state of affairs. According to public opinion polls the number of listeners to pirate radio stations has swelled to 20 million, and over the months of Government inaction they began to assume that nothing would be done, and they came to look on "pop" programmes as a permanent part of their lives. There are over twice as many pirate stations, and the individual pirate companies themselves have built up their strength by vastly increasing their audience and consequently their advertising revenue.
As I said on Second Reading, two questions arise from the state of affairs that has been allowed to develop. Have Her Majesty's Government a responsibility to fill the void left in the lives of their listeners by the planned demise of the pirate ships with a satisfactory alternative; and, secondly, if they do not fill that void will someone else do it for them? That Her Majesty's Government recognise their responsibility is shown by their plans for a new B.B.C. programme to be broadcast in the autumn on 247 metres. But is there any need for the time lag between this Bill coming into effect (if your Lordships do not amend it, it may well receive the Royal Assent before the Spring Recess and therefore become effective by mid-June) and the start of the new Radio 247 in the autumn, and will the new B.B.C.
720
programme, when it does come, be what this particular public want?
In his Second Reading speech in another place on February 15, the Postmaster General said:
"My colleagues and I are in no doubt that there is a wide demand for continuous light music and that it would be right to meet this demand. If there is a considerable demand of this kind it should be met."
So far, so good. But the right honourable gentleman went on:
"I do not think that it is a demand for non-stop 'pop'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 15/2/67, col. 638.]
My Lords, three out of the four main pirates play non-stop "pop". Most of the minor pirates play non-stop "pop". At the time that the European Treaty and this Bill were conceived, the only pirates then in existence all played nothing but non-stop "pop". If there were not this demand the listeners would not listen, the advertisers would therefore not advertise, being a pirate would cease to be financially attractive, and there would be no need for this Bill.
My first reason, therefore, for asking your Lordships to accept this Amendment is to enable the Postmaster General to delay the operation of the Act until he has provided his alternative programme, and to impress on him the fact that his present ideas as to what constitutes an alternative programme are founded on a misconception. This is an important reason for the Amendment, but it is not the main one. Were it to be so, I should be inclined to listen to the plea of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, on Second Reading, when she suggested that we should pass this Bill first and debate the question of an adequate alternative later.
But there is another, more pressing, reason for this Amendment. In the Second Reading debate I told your Lordships of the current talk and rumours as to what would happen when the provision of this Bill came into effect. They fell roughly into two categories. First, that other organisations are planning to take advantage of the possible demise of the pirates and, by providing the programmes their present listeners want, to cash in on the advertising revenue. Secondly, that the present pirate companies, or more accurately the foreign interests behind the present pirates, are seeking. and probably

721
finding, ways to get round this Bill and continue broadcasting. I mentioned Radio Andorra on Second Reading. I understand that they have begun broadcasting to this country on an experimental basis once or twice a month. if they are successful others will follow, and indeed the present pirates may well take to the land and evade this Bill completely. If they did this, they could still keep their offices in London, their English staff, their English companies, advertise English goods, and broadcast on the same wavelengths. But I understand that they still feel, after taking legal advice, that they can keep their ships, manned by foreign crews, supplied from abroad, financed by foreign advertisers and organised from offices abroad.
I have talked to several of the pirates about this. Somewhat naturally, they will not tell me how they plan to evade the provisions of the Bill. But they have convinced me that, whether or not they will be successful in evading it, they themselves are confident that they will succeed. Contracts with foreign companies for advertising after the Bill has been passed have already been signed. My guess is that both methods of evading this Bill will be tried, and that it is no longer a question of whether unlicensed broadcasting will survive, but of who will win the inevitable battle for listeners and revenue.
On March 7, when this Bill was before a Standing Committee in another place, the Postmaster General gave four justifications for it. He said (col. 104):
"One is the honouring of international obligations. The second is that pirate radio interferes with the legitimate broadcasting of our European neighbours. The third is that it interferes with ship to shore radio, and the fourth is that it ignores the interests of copyright holders."
The Bill as it stands will honour the international Agreements; but if, as seems very probable, the pirates are able to continue in one form or another, the Bill will do nothing to stop interference with European broadcasting, interference with ship to shore radio, nor the ignoring of the interests of copyright holders. One objective out of four will have been achieved. Cannot we do a little better than that? But even this one objective means nothing without the other three. The Copenhagen Agreement and the European Agreement are not an end in themselves but only a means to an end.
722
If we comply with the letter of these agreements but do not achieve the purpose behind them, which is the stopping of anarchy on the air, we can hardly be said to be fulfilling our international obligations.
If this Bill had been passed early in 1965 it would have been effective by itself. Now it will not be. The new factors that have grown up during these past two years are a vast audience who have grown accustomed to a certain type of programme, and a large number of advertisers who have discovered the advantages of a certain medium. These two hang very much together. If the pirates lose the audience, they will lose the advertising. If they lose the advertising, they will no longer be able to, or indeed wish to, keep their listeners.
There are, therefore, two alternatives before the Government now if they want to stop unlicensed broadcasting altogether, as they have a duty to do. The first is to attract listeners away from the pirates. This will be hard, as the listening public have grown accustomed and attached, not only to the sort of programmes that the pirates present, but also to the method of presentation and the personalities of the disc jockeys behind that presentation. To win the audience away from a programme that they like, you must not only provide that audience with what they want when they want it, but you must do it better than it is being done at the moment. The second alternative is to attract the advertisers away from the pirates. This is very much easier, because not only would a commercial programme authorised by the Government, and land-based in this country, be able to offer very much better financial terms, but also advertisers would prefer to use a medium that is free from the taint of evading the law.
Her Majesty's Government have chosen the 'first and more difficult alternative. But apart from the difficulties I have already mentioned, they have burdened themselves with some quite unnecessary obstacles to success. The first is to allow a time lag between this Bill coming into effect and the start of the alternative programme, Radio 247. When the provisions of the Bill start biting, the pirates admit that they are in for a sticky six months. An immediate substitute programme might prove just too much for

723
them. But the delay from June until the Autumn will enable the pirates to get over the worst of their new difficulties, and be in a far stronger position to fight the new B.B.C. programme.
The second obstacle is that Her Majesty's Government have not solved the difficult problem of needle time with the Musicians' Union. If Radio 247 is limited to 20 per cent., or even 40 per cent., of gramophone records, they are going to be in no position to compete against a pirate programme that suffers from no limits at all. The third is their own failure to realise the sort of programme that is now enjoyed and will be wanted by the listeners they are trying to attract. The new Radio 247 is to be a balanced programme, with "something for everybody"—a sort of aural nursery dinner. "You eat up your nice Palm Court Orchestra, and if you are a good boy you shall have some 'pop' to finish up with". That sort of attitude is all very well for a monopoly, but for a programme that is fighting for listeners it is doomed to failure. Ideally there should be at least two new programmes, one for "pop" and one for what is called "sweet" music. But "pop" is wanted by at least two-thirds of the pirate audiences, probably more, and if there is only to be one new programme, it must be "pop". It may seem unfair to devote a whole programme to the devotees of only one type of music, but not only is the "pop" audience a vast one, but also they probably listen to their wirelesses for longer hours than any other section of listeners. And as the object of this new programme is solely to defeat the pirates, and to compensate their listeners, this can only be done with "pop".
This Amendment will enable the Postmaster General to delay the operation of the Bill until he is in a position to achieve its objectives. He may need until the autumn to make Radio 247 into a really competitive programme. He may be able to bring it in sooner. In that case, he can bring this Bill into effect sooner. He may need even more time. In that case, under this Amendment, he can take it. He can also use the intervening time to look into the possibilities of commercial radio. If his new programme is unsuccessful, he will have to fall back on
724
that. I hold no brief for the pirates—I do not want to see them continue a day longer than necessary—but with this Amendment I am asking your Lordships to put flexibility into the Bill, and if the Postmaster General does not have this flexibility or, if, having got it, he does not make use of it, his aims, the aims of the European Agreement and the aims of this Bill are beaten before they start. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 43, leave out subsection (2) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Denham.)
LORD SORENSEN: I do not intend to reply to the noble Lord's Amendment just now, but, for the purpose of hearing a Statement made, on behalf of the Government I beg to move that the House be resumed.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

BRITISH FORCES ON THE CONTINENT
3.52 p.m.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as follows:
"No, sir. The final round of Tripartite Talks was held in London on Thursday and Friday of last week and the principals have transmitted their proposals to their Governments. A Statement will be made to the House at the earliest opportunity and I would ask the right honourable gentleman to await it."
That is the end of the Statement.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I most warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for that illuminating Statement. Could he give us any indication of what "the earliest opportunity" will be at which he will make a Statement? Will it be very soon, or soon, or fairly soon?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I must apologise that my Statement was not sufficiently illuminating. As to whether the Statement will be soon, fairly soon,

725
very soon, or a little later, I must ask the noble Lord to await the Statement, and then I shall have great pleasure in repeating it in this House.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, could the noble Lord let us know whether it is likely to be before Whitsun?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am afraid that I am not entirely my own master in this affair. I must await the Statement to which my right honourable friend has referred. I really cannot say whether the Statement will be made before Whitsun, but I should expect that it might be.

MARINE &c. BROADCASTING (OFFENCES) BILL
3.55 p.m.
House again in Committee.
LORD STRABOLGI: I hope that the Government will carefully consider this Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Denham, because I think it merits much consideration and I would support it from this side of the House. After all, this is a non-Party matter. The noble Lord opposite has made a good case for postponing the Bill, and I hope that the Government will go into it rather more carefully before it becomes law. As the noble Lord has pointed out, the suppression of these radio pirates will leave a considerable void. I entirely agree with him when he says that Radio 247 will by no means fill that void.
The noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, said earlier that many members of the public seem to be under a misconception in thinking that the Government are trying to suppress popular radio. One knows that the Government have no such intention. But I would say to the Government that I think it would be as well if they were to consider more carefully what popular radio is. I suggest that if they took some time to listen to popular radio and then compared it with the kind of programmes put out by the B.B.C. they would see a marked difference. It is clear that popular radio appeals largely to the younger generation—as the noble Lord, Lord Denham, so rightly said, to nearly 20 million. The B.B.C. Light Programme or Radio 247 will by no means fill that void. As has been said,
726
it will be a so-called mixed programme. No doubt there will be some popular programmes. There will be "Palm Court", "Old Time Dancing", popular classics, Tchaikovsky—that sort of thing; and that is all people are going to get. The further alternative of local sound radio which the Government White Paper put forward, for operation under the auspices of the B.B.C., is to be supported by subventions from the local art gallery, the university, local bodies and so on. As I pointed out on Second Reading, that is a non-starter from the word "Go".
From all these points of view, I think that the Government should consider far more carefully what they are going to do to fill this void. May I give a comparison from a period before the war, when I was young and when many members of the Government were no doubt listening more to popular music than they do now? It is as if you forbade people to listen to Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington and put in their place Henry Hall. That is the kind of thing you are doing when you suppress the popular music programmes as transmitted by the pirates. Therefore, I hope that the Government will consider this matter and will accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD STRANGE: In supporting the Amendment, I would say that when the noble Lord says it is popular he can see just how popular it is—that is, just now. I would say, as I said before, that this Bill is entirely unnecessary, and what is going to come in the fight ahead is entirely unnecessary. All the Government have to do is to fulfil their promise to the legal Manx Radio Station, to give them increased powers. The pirates agree, the Manx want it and the Government have already promised it. When they do that, the whole argument comes to an end. I hope to speak in another thrilling instalment on this subject if I get another chance.
3.59 p.m.
LORD SORENSEN: Both the noble Lord, Lord Denham, and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, have referred to what has been described as a "void" left in listening time. This strikes a tragic note, as if the whole ten million people who would be listening have suddenly been jilted or are suffering a grievous loss. After all, what is it they

727
are losing? I understand it is likely that in the late summer this alternative service will be available. So, on the one hand, between the passing of the Bill and its coming into law, and, on the other hand, the availability of the new service, about six weeks will elapse. In that time we have to assume that, somehow or other, ten million young people, or those who think they are young, or who pretend they are young, or behave as if they are young, are going to feel a desolation in their hearts that they never felt before. I wonder how they got on before pirate ships started. Were they walking about the world miserable and dejected, in anticipation one day of the joy that would suddenly come to them to fill their lives and fill the void? Surely that is going a little too far.
Moreover, I would remind the noble Lord that on June 2, 1964, the then Postmaster General, Mr. Bevins, stated that the Government were very concerned at the pirate ships, and he went on to say that the Government therefore proposed to await the conclusion of the Convention and then to consider legislation on the lines proposed by that Convention. That meant that they themselves, although deeply concerned, as I am sure are all noble Lords in this House, about the advent of marine anarchy and piracy, nevertheless felt that they would have to wait a while before legislation could be proposed. In the event of the return of a Conservative Government at that time it was highly likely that they would have taken as long as the present Government have taken before actually introducing legislation. I would emphasise the fact that there were what was called "Radio Caroline"—a very ambiguous term, and I must confess that a great deal of this terminology transcends my own very, limited spirits—and others operating during the time of the Conservative Government. What the Labour Government did was to continue from where they left off; and in view of the very narrow majority of the Labour Government for some months, and also the pressure for much more urgent legislation, one can understand why we had to wait until some more general agreement or consensus of opinion existed, not only in this country but in other countries as well. Therefore I do not think the noble Lord is over-just in
728
chiding the Labour Government for delaying so long.
On the other hand, I would also ask again: what is the gap during which this dreadful, tragic void will exist among these alleged millions of listeners? It is a matter of some six or seven weeks. if there is a delay in the provision of this alternative service, or indeed if during this six, seven or eight weeks there is this terrible void, is he saying that we should connive at illegality? I cannot think that noble Lords, respecting as they do law and order, will justify taking that line. Members of this House, whether we are Members as Life Peers who have brought life to the House or whether as hereditary Peers, are conscious of the attempt constantly made to preserve the dignity of this House. Why? Because we want to preserve the dignity of law. if that be so, it seems to me, however regrettable it may be that there is this sad and lamentable gap during which the quantity of pabulum supplied to large numbers of people would not be available, nevertheless we must insist on respect for the law.
I am sure that many noble Lords here, including the noble Lord, Lord Denham, would agree with me that the intention of these pirates is not art altruistic one. They did not acquire these structures or ships and then broadcast for some noble, altruistic or patriotic purpose. That was not their intention at all. They are not concerned about freedom and liberty and such noble sentiments. They are concerned with profit, and therefore their motives are mercenary. Mercenary motives undoubtedly operate in the minds of all of us to a greater or less degree, but it seems to me to be their exclusive note.
Noble Lords might like to read some of the letters that have poured into this Assembly in the last few days. Some 500 letters have been addressed to noble Lords in this House, most of them in courteous language, protesting against the possibility of the suppression of the pirates. If noble Lords would care to read these, they can do so, and I will add a dozen addressed personally to me. The rest have been sent to your Lordships collectively. On that basis we could say we have had two apiece, and get through them that way. These letters are from a small fraction of the ten million who are supposed to listen. If, in spite of all

729
the attempts which have been made by interested parties who evoke a response from their listeners into sending letters to this House, only 500 in fact been received, it would seem to me evident that the great majority of listeners are not so concerned after all. Again, I would say, let them strengthen themselves with fortitude, for it is only a question of a few weeks.
Meanwhile, the point of the Bill is not so much concerned with commercial broadcasting; the simple point is whether we should connive at continued attempts unscrupulously to avoid the law. Again I would ask the Committee to appreciate that it is not only we ourselves as a nation or a Government who are concerned, but there are many other Governments, a dozen or more in all, which have intimated their sense of dismay that their own broadcasts are constantly being interfered with, that they cannot transmit as they would wish to do because of the interference, by design or otherwise, on the part of these illegal, unscrupulous piratical broadcasts. Surely, for the sake of international amity, for the sake of encouraging the development of International Law in this respect into something more comprehensive than it is, it is necessary that we ourselves should do something in this direction.
It may be that some of the forebodings of the noble Lord will be fulfilled and justified—I do not know; nor does he. His borebodings have been expressed, and it may be that these ingenious gentlemen will find loopholes. This is constantly the effort of those who are not over-scrupulous about the public weal, and no doubt they will do their best. But we will wait and see. Nevertheless, it is our hope that this Bill will go some way towards suppressing the pirates. Difficulties may arise. We can then take other steps, and it will encourage other nations which are waiting upon us to follow suit until we have much more comprehensive international regulations than is the case at present.
On the other hand, it may well be that there are points raised by the noble Lord which we have not considered as we should consider them. I hope most earnestly that he will not divide the Committee on this matter. If necessary, we will consider the matter yet again, though the Postmaster General has made
730
it very clear that he would take early action. He has been pressed to take early action. Nevertheless, if it is any comfort to the noble Lord and any inducement to him not to press this Amendment to a Division, I can assure him that the matter can be reconsidered between now and the next stage of the Bill, although I say in advance that this is not to commit the Government in any way whatever, but simply to assure him that we are most anxious that this Bill shall be supported by all Parties in the House. It is a matter of deep concern to ourselves and the whole world.
May I utter one final plea? We are all most anxious, whatever our own personal tastes may be, to give to any section of the public what it feels it wants, even if it does not need it. There are those, for instance, who are provided with opportunities for seeing all-in wrestling. I have watched it once or twice myself and have realised how strong is the atavistic tendency among a large section of our community. Nevertheless, all-in wrestling is there for those who like it. So there is no attempt to try to impose puritanical or other ideas on the rest of the community. But surely one has not all the time to be dictated to by the tastes of one small section of the community.
"Pop" music may be beneficial; it may be a nourishment to the soul as well as the mind to large numbers of people. But surely we are not going to be intimidated or dominated merely by that section, for they seem to put on one side all other matters. We are led to assume by some of the letters we have received that questions of war and peace, of social services, of education, are all of no concern and must stand aside when it is a matter of the provision of "pop" music. If we ever come to the stage where we have to be subjugated to the transient tastes of one section of the community, it will be a bad day for this country. But this is all by the way. I say again that I hope the noble Lord will not press the point. I give the assurance that it will be considered, but at the same time we can give no guarantee that we shall depart from the decision which we have already made.
4.10 p.m.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: Before we part with this Amendment, I feel compelled to say a few words after

731
the speech to which we have just listened. The noble Lord (and he and I have known each other for many years) attempted to dispose of the arguments of my noble friend, and of his noble friends behind him, in what I thought was a rather facetious manner. We had, of course, the usual bit about the profit motive—that we understand. But then, of course, we had another hit about this terrible void—
LORD SORENSEN: May I say, again, that I made no attack at all on the profit motive? I accepted that it is a factor which operates all our lives; and I said so quite deliberately.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: Noble Lords will remember what the noble Lord said. I think I can leave it at that. But he went on to say that there would be this terrible void left. He asked what these people did before these programmes existed, and said that they never felt a void. Let me put this to him. If somebody came along and said: "We are going to abolish television in this country", would he say, "I shouldn't mind, because before we had television we never knew what it was like"? It is exactly the same argument, and the minute one puts it one sees that it is quite absurd.
I do not want to detain your Lordships. The noble Lord says that the matter will be considered again between now and Report stage. I have no doubt that it will be; but after listening to the case that he put up and hearing what he himself evidently feels, I have no great hopes that the Government will change their minds. From the speech to which we have just listened it seems to be pretty obvious that the Government have made up their minds about this matter. Therefore I would urge my noble friend to press this Amendment to a Division now. In view of the opinions which have been expressed and, as I say, the manner in which the Government's decision was defended, I feel that we should have a decision on this matter. Speaking purely as a Party politician, I would almost say, "Let the Bill go through", but I think we must consider it on rather different motives from that.
LORD CARRINGTON: May I just say one word? In exactly like manner to my noble friend Lord Grimston of Westbury,
732
I should not have dreamed of intervening but for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, which, if I may say so without causing offence, was one of the most superior things I have ever heard in my life. It was just that, "The man on the Government Front Bench knows best".
I rise only to ask two questions. First, the noble Lord seemed to me to base his entire case on the fact that there was to be a gap of only a few weeks; and he said that everybody must be brave and gird up his loins and not worry too much, because in a few weeks it would be all right. All my noble friend is asking is that the date when the Bill comes into operation should be postponed for a few weeks. if the gap is to be for only a few weeks what is wrong with postponing it? We have had this position for some time, and the Government have put up with it for two and a half years or more. What is so important about a few weeks? The other point is that the noble Lord said he would take back the Amendment and reconsider it. He made no commitment, and we understand that he cannot make any commitment. So what exactly is the value of that offer? The noble Lord has heard my noble friend's arguments—he heard them on Second Reading—and presumably both he and his advisers and other Ministers in the Government have considered them. Does he really mean that he has been so impressed by the additional things my noble friend has said to-day that he is going to tell his right honourable friend that he feels the matter should be considered again; or is that just an empty phrase in order to avoid a Division?
LORD SORENSEN: There are two points I should like to make. First of all, I ask the noble Lord to absolve me from any sense of superiority in this matter. I am no more superior in this matter than any noble Lords who desire to support this Bill in purpose. If they are supporting this Bill in purpose, then they are as anxious as I am to suppress the pirates; and therefore to that extent they are superior, and at least as superior as I am. I appreciate—and I have said so more than once—that there are a variety of tastes in the public mind. One recognises that. The last thing I want to do is to try to impose my taste on others. The issue which I put again to the noble

733
Lord, Lord Carrington, is that either we connive at the continuation of what is admitted to be an illegality, or we take some action. Does the noble Lord really wish, as a Member of this House, to connive at the continuation of an illegality for some six weeks? Perhaps he would consider that, as much as I said I would reconsider the points which the noble Lord, Lord Denham, raised.
Secondly, I said that we would think over this matter again, simply because I am most anxious that we should respect all points of view in this House. I have said that I can give no guarantee; nor can I. I am but the representative of the Postmaster General in a very minor capacity. It is not within my capacity to say that I can guarantee this, that or the other. All I can say on my own responsibility is that I will get this matter considered. I can give no guarantee, and my desire is simply to show a willingness to consider so far as we can everything that is said in this House, so that from all quarters we can wholeheartedly support the intention of this Bill. That is my only intention. In those circumstances, noble Lords must decide to do what they think best, and we must do the same.
LORD CONESFORD: I am very much puzzled by all this, because I am so out of it all and so unbelievably "square" that of the 500 letters that have come to Members of the House I have not received one. I have never heard any of these programmes and know little about the subject, but I have looked at the Amendment. That is the only matter on which I am at all competent to speak. The Amendment, whether it is good or bad, does only one thing: it gives an additional power to Her Majesty's Government. That is all it does. If we do not have the Amendment, the Act will in any event not come into operation for one month. The Amendment says that after that it will come into operation whenever the Government decide to advise Her Majesty to make an Order in Council. Whatever your Lordships may think about it, the Government ought not to be so terrified at having an additional power. I really cannot understand it. I do not feel any enormous enthusiasm for the Amendment, but how anybody can feel any enthusiasm against the Amendment passes my understanding.
LORD DENHAM: I should like to thank my noble friends, and other noble Lords, who have supported me on this Amendment—even those who have supported me half-heartedly. My noble friends who have agreed with me have suggested that the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, made a very bad case against the Amendment. I agree with them. He has made an extremely bad case against it, but in saying that I hope he will take it for the compliment that is implied, because to have made any sort of case against this Amendment is extremely clever. The Government have no case against it.
The noble Lord talked at great length about "pop". He does not like "pop". Well, he may not, but quite a number of people do. He may think that people should be able to wait for the Government's substitute. We think that the effectiveness of this Bill should wait. But what the noble Lord has not begun to explain to the Committee, and what I think they ought to know, is why there has been no hurry at all for over two years for this legislation to be put on the Statute Book, yet there is now this desperate rush so that it cannot possibly wait even a few more weeks.
The noble Lord spoke of the dignity of the law, and he thinks that by leaving the Bill as it is we will support the dignity of the law. If you are making a law that is easily evadable, purely by the timing of the Bill which brings it in, is it more dignified to support the Bill as it is and not achieve the object, or to support my Amendment and strengthen the law, and give the Postmaster General a chance of achieving the object of the Bill. I am afraid that I cannot withdraw this Amendment, and I must ask your Lordships to support me in the Lobby.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): I hope the noble Lord will be prepared to reconsider this. It was not so apparent to the Government what the object of this Amendment was going to be. The noble Lord made a long speech—not, of course, a minute too long, but a long, carefully prepared, written speech. It is not unreasonable, I should have thought—particularly when, as I say, the Amendment is not of itself self-explanatory—that the Government should have an opportunity of considering what the noble Lord has said.
LORD DENHAM: I had rather hoped that Her Majesty's Government might have taken some account of my Second Reading speech, in which I explained the kind of Amendment that I was intending to move. Her Majesty's Government have had (I am not quite sure what it is) ten days, possibly, to consider the form of the Amendment I was going to move. Admittedly I have put it down in a slightly different form of words. I have made it subject to an Order in Council rather than to an order of the Postmaster General, because I understood that the Postmaster General's jurisdiction was rather more limited than the jurisdiction of the Bill, and I was therefore advised
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
On Question, Whether Clause 11, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD SORENSEN: Your Lordships have just carried an Amendment to this
to word the Amendment in this way. But I cannot see why, if Her Majesty's Government are now going to consider my Amendment, they could not have been considering it all this time. What disadvantage is it going to be to them it they take the opinion of the Committee now to help them to make up their minds on whether this Amendment is a good one?
4.23 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 12) shall he agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 65; Not-Contents, 44.

CONTENTS

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Effingham, E.

Lovat, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Ellenborough, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Albemarle, E.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Macpherson of Drumochter, L.

Arran, E.

Falkland, V.

Mersey, V.

Auckland, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Milverton, L.

Audley, Bs.

Glasgow, E.

Monsell, V.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Blackford, L.

Greenway, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Grenfell, L.

Reay, L.

Carrington, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Redesdale, L.

Clwyd, L.

Hacking, L.

St. Helens, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hawke, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Conesford, L.

Hereford, V.

Sempill, Ly.

Cottesloe, L.

Horsbrugh, Bs.

Sinha, L.

Craigavon, V.

Hylton-Foster, Bs.

Strange, L.

Daventry, V.

Iddesleigh, E.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Ilford, L.

Teynham, L.

Derwent, L.

Inglewood, L.

Thurlow, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Ironside, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Vivian, L.

Dudley, L.

Jessel, L.

Willingdon, M.

Ebbisham, L.

Kinnoull, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Popplewell. L.

Airedale, L.

Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Archibald, L.

Hilton of Upton. L. [Teller.]

Rowley, L.

Asquith of Yarnbury, Bs.

Hunt, L.

St. Davids, V.

Beswick. L.

Latham, L.

Segal, L.

Blyton, L.

Leatherland, L.

Shackleton, L.

Bowles, L. [Teller.]

Lindgren, L.

Silkin, L.

Brockway, L.

Listowel, E.

Sorensen, L.

Brown, L.

Longford. E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Stocks, Bs.

Burden, L.

Maelor, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Chalfont, L.

Mitchison, L.

Strang, L.

Champion, L.

Moyle, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L

Chorley, L.

Peddie, L.

Walston, L.

Collison, L.

Phillips, Bs.

Williamson, L.

Crook, L.

Piercy, L.

clause. So that there shall be no dubiety in the minds of those who are operating pirate radio stations, I think it is right to inform your Lordships' Committee, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that it will be their intention, if the Bill

737
is enacted in this form, to advise Her Majesty to make an Order bringing the Act into operation on the day after the expiry of one month from the date on which the Bill receives the Royal Assent.
LORD DENHAM: I think this really is treating the Committee with contempt. Her Majesty's Government offered to go away and consider my speech. The fact that they have now said this shows that they had no intention whatsoever of carrying out that undertaking. I have never heard anything so—what is the Parliamentary expression for it? Words fail me.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): I am glad that words have failed the noble Lord, because he was clearly talking in a very wild fashion. My noble friend Lord Sorensen made a most conciliatory offer—and what did the noble Lords do? They began accusing him of being superior. They turned down the most conciliatory offer he could possibly make; and, now that they have forced an issue, the Government are making it plain that they do not intend to delay longer than is necessary. That is their decision. May I just say that I hope the noble Lord will not use the word "contempt" just because he happens to find that he has not succeeded in being quite so clever as he thought he was going to be.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Shame!
LORD DERWENT: Unfortunately, my noble Leader was not in the House. I am sure that the noble Earl the Leader of the House when he thinks it over, will regret almost every word that he has just spoken.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: May I just say that noble Lords cannot throw words like contempt" about without being treated quite roughly in return.
LORD DERWENT: But usually, in this House, with good manners.
LORD AIREDALE: Will the noble Earl the Leader of the House, when we return to this Bill at the next stage, make a carefully prepared statement to the House explaining just why it was that the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, felt able to advise the Committee that there was a possibility of this Amendment being accepted, in view of what the noble Lord
738
said just now about the coming into force of the Bill?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I will certainly consider anything which falls from any noble Lord in this House, but I should not like noble Lords to imagine that the Government are going to alter their attitude.
Remaining clause, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with the Amendment.

ANTARCTIC TREATY BILL
4.33 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICH:My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I have been invited to pilot the Antarctic Treaty Bill through this House following its passage without amendment in another place. I should like to pay a personal tribute to Sir Clive Bossom who has so skilfully carried this Bill through to its present stage. I have been informed that the last occasion a Bill was sponsored from the Episcopal Benches in your Lordships' House was in 1927. The title of that Bill was the Liquor (Popular Control) Bill. This Bill is of a rather different character, and I hope that it will be more successful than the one to which I have alluded.
My own interest in the Antarctic Treaty Bill arises from having had the opportunity to live and travel in the Antarctic through three summers and two winters as a member of the British Graham's Land Expedition of 1934 to 1937, under the leadership of Mr. John Rymill. Subsequently, in the years immediately after the war, as Director of the Scott Polar Research Institute in Cambridge, I was in touch with a number of expeditions engaged in Antarctic exploration and research which have steadily increased our knowledge of this remote and magnificent continent. I should therefore, in that sense, declare an interest and I hope it will not be thought inappropriate to sponsor from these Benches legislation which is designed to enable international co-operation in scientific discovery for peaceful purposes and to protect wild life.

739
I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is back from Aden and has his name down to speak, not only by reason of his father's notable contribution to Antarctic discovery but also by reason of his own experience and his own part in Polar exploration in the Arctic. There is great interest in this subject, and the list of speakers ensures that the Bill will be considered from the governmental, legal, scientific, conservationist and world Government point of view. I am grateful to those who will contribute to our consideration of this Bill from these various points of view.
The main purpose of the Bill is to give effect to measures for the conservation of Antarctic flora and fauna upon which all the Antarctic Treaty Governments— twelve in number—agreed at a Consultative Meeting held in Brussels in 1964. So far, four other Governments have approved these measures: Argentina, Norway, South Africa and the Soviet Union. If this Bill is passed, and so gives effect to these measures for the United Kingdom, it is to be hoped that the remaining signatory nations will soon follow suit. When that happens, the wild life of the whole Antarctic continent will be subject to a set of principles and rules which embody the most advanced thinking in conservation.
Before considering the terms of the Bill I think it may be helpful if I say something of the background which led, in the first place, to the Antarctic Treaty signed on December 1, 1959, and then to the Bill now under consideration. When I was in the Antarctic thirty years ago, I was combining geological and glaciological work and the role of chaplain. My parish might have been said to cover 5½ million square miles. At all events, we were the only human beings on the continent—sixteen men for the first fifteen months, and (after our sailing ship left for a refit) nine men in the last year. Now, thirty years later, the population has grown and there are thirty-one permanent stations operated by ten nations within the Treaty Area. The number of men involved has risen to more than 3,000 during the Antarctic summer, with a winter population of about 700.
740
There have been several reasons for this increased activity in Antarctica. During the war, and for a number of years after, it looked as if the Antarctic might become a source of serious international conflict. Before the war five nations, Australia, Britain, France, New Zealand and Norway, had each made mutually recognised territorial claims to sectors of the continent. During the war Argentina and Chile had also laid claims to sectors which overlapped, not only with each other, but also with that claimed by Britain. None of these territorial claims was recognised in the United States or by the Soviet Union. Both these countries had become actively interested in the Antarctic and wanted a new deal. The form in which claims were made, and the protests of infringements of alleged rights were registered, reflected inter-governmental friction of quite a serious kind, though in the Antarctic itself they sometimes had a somewhat Gilbertian character: a formal protest could soon be followed by drinks all round.
Despite these mounting political problems, my Lords—and perhaps to some extent because of them—exploration and research were going on. This country has throughout taken an active part, notably in the work of the Falkland Islands Dependencies Survey, now known as the British Antarctic Survey, and in that remarkable journey across the continent led by Sir Vivian Fuchs. But one expedition was significant for its international character with aims which were purely scientific, the Norwegian-British-Swedish Antarctic Expedition to Queen Maud Land of 1949–52, which was inspired by the Swedish glaciologist, Professor Hans Ahlmann.
Leading scientists throughout the world were coming to realise that the Antarctic held the key to many scientific problems, some of them of global magnitude. This was specially true in the field of geophysics, and a large and important part of the programme of the International Geophysical Year, in which no fewer than 66 nations were involved, took place at a number of stations in the Antarctic in 1957–58. This operation, the International Geophysical Year, undoubtedly gave an impetus to the view that nations could do so much more in scientific

741
research if they co-operated; and in particular it prepared the ground for the Antarctic Treaty signed by all the twelve nations which had particular Antarctic interests in 1959. The preamble to this Treaty says that:
"It is in the interests of all mankind that Antarctica shall continue for ever to be used exclusively for peaceful purposes."
The second Article of the Treaty, which your Lordships will find imprinted as Schedule 1 to the Bill, ensures that the whole continent shall be free for scientific investigation without regard to nationality.
Since that Treaty has come into force steady progress has been made on both political and scientific matters of common interest to the nations concerned. One of the most urgent of these questions is, of course, that of wild-life conservation. Your Lordships will be familiar with Alan Moorhead's recent book, Fatal Impact, with its dramatic description of what followed in the years after the voyages in the Pacific and in the Southern Seas of that great and humane English explorer, Captain James Cook. On the Antarctic seals Cook had said they were:
"all so tame or rather so stupid as to suffer us to come so near as to knock them down with a stick."
Within sixty years there was carnage on these seal beaches, with hundreds of sealing vessels involved; and in one season two vessels with 60 men on board demolished 45,000 fur seals. My Lords, that sort of thing could happen again. The Antarctic may not long be immune from the ravages of commercial exploitation, and this Bill offers an opportunity of legislating to control the otherwise inevitable and possibly devastating pressures which will be brought to bear on Antarctic life before they occur. I am convinced that we are wise to anticipate these dangers by introducing this legislation now.
The Antarctic is the least spolt continent in the world. The limited but increasing amount of human activity in the Antarctic could, if not regulated, all too easily upset the balance of Nature, because many species are susceptible to extermination. Furthermore, various of the species congregate for breeding, sometimes in vast numbers, which means that they would be especially vulnerable to
742
introduced parasites and diseases. Many of the species of seal and all the species of penguin do not recognise man as a potential enemy. They are so utterly trusting that they lay themselves open to wilful exploitation. For instance, the Adélie penguin, one of the species which breeds further South, is an inquisitive bird. It does not run away from you: it follows you around.
I can recall, my Lords, a day when I was geologising on a small island below high-tide mark, which was the only place where the rocks were exposed, when I became aware that I was being observed. I looked up and there were 60 or 70 Adélie penguins peering over the ice foot. I spent the day hammering the rocks, and every time I looked up there were my "faithful flock". Their curiosity was constant but evidently unsatisfied. Not only are the birds themselves vulnerable by virtue of their tameness, but they lay their eggs in exposed positions. The same is true of the petrels, the skuas, the terns, and many of their eggs make quite delicious eating. It is not fanciful to imagine the time when these could be put on the market, either as rarities or as delicacies. The main purpose of the Bill, therefore, is to give protection to these creatures.
Clause 1 sets out the heart of the matter in that it prohibits without a permit the killing, injuring, molesting or taking of native birds or mammals. This provision is designed primarily for the protection of the six species of seal—crabeaters, Weddells, the leopard seal, the Ross seal, the elephant seal and the fur seal; and four species of penguin, the emperor, the Adélie, chinstrap and Gentoo, as well as ten species of birds which fly and which nest in the Antarctic, particularly the shags, petrels, gulls, terns and skuas. Similarly, it prohibits the gathering of any native plant within a special protected area or driving any vehicle in any such area.
The Secretary of State would be able to issue permits under Clause 3 to allow animals and birds to be taken so as to provide specimens for scientific research, for zoos and for museums, as well as to provide food for men and dogs where necessary. He would also have authority to delegate his powers over the issue of permits to the Director of the British Antarctic Survey and also to the leaders

743
of British Antarctic survey stations, and of other British expeditions. The British Antarctic Survey, known formerly as the Falkland Islands Dependencies Survey, has been working in the Antarctic for 23 years. In that time it has undertaken a wide and substantial programme of scientific research including biology, and one of their stations, Signy Island, in the South Orkneys, is equipped with a first-class biological laboratory where some twenty scientific projects are being worked on. As part of the survey policy of linking their work with interested departments in the Universities, the writing up of this biological work is carried out by a special unit in Queen Mary College at London University. There are similar units for geology at Birmingham University, for geophysics in Edinburgh University, and for glaciology in the Scott Polar Research Institute at Cambridge.
A month ago the Secretary of State for Education and Science announced in another place in answer to a question that ministerial responsibility for the British Antarctic Survey had been moved from the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs to the Secretary of State for Education and Science. I feel that it is a wise decision to consider the scientific work we do in the Antarctic in the context of the civil scientific effort of the country as a whole. This move also bears testimony to the way in which the Survey has developed under the experienced leadership of Sir Vivian Fuchs, and I should like to pay tribute to him and to the staff of the Survey, both past and present, for the outstanding results they have achieved.
The Bill provides in Clause 7 for Orders in Council being made to designate specially protected species and specially protected areas. The first lists of such species and areas as are now to be designated are given in Annexes A and B. These Annexes were recommended by the fourth consultative meeting representing the Treaty Governments, held in Santiago last November, on the advice of the Scientific Committee for Antarctic Research. Annexe A lists two species as specially protected, both of them seals—the fur seal and the Ross seal. Annex B gives 15 specially protected areas on the continent and off-lying islands.
744
The reasons why these areas are so designated are of some interest. In two cases it is a question of protecting unique plant communities, for as your Lordships will be aware there is relatively little plant life in the whole of the Antarctic—there are a few species of grasses, mosses and lichens, and what there is is for the most part near the coast or on islands, the greater part of the continent being covered by permanent snow and ice. One area is designated to protect an Emperor penguin colony, two more because they are breeding centres of the fur seal, and three others to protect representative habitats for scientific study.
One important power is also provided with a view to making the protection of certain species effective; namely, the power to extend their protection to the whole area, including the high seas south of the Sixtieth Parallel of latitude. I refer to Clause 7(3). This is a necessary safeguard to protect species like the crab-eater seal, which breeds on the pack ice far from the shore, and which is extremely tame. I ought to make it clear, however, that the agreed measures referred to in this Bill do not include whales, and this deliberately, because whales are the subject of separate international agreements between a different group of nations from those involved in the Antarctic Treaty.
I should draw attention—and this I will do briefly—to one further purpose of this Bill; that is, to give effect to the United Kingdom's obligations under Article VIII of the Treaty by making British observers and exchange scientists subject to United Kingdom law and jurisdiction. The Treaty provides the right for any of the signatory nations to appoint observers to inspect the Antarctic stations of other Treaty Governments. This, of course, is an important right. It is designed to ensure that the intentions of the Treaty on peaceful purposes, the prohibition of nuclear explosions and the disposal of radioactive waste are strictly complied with. Moreover, British scientists may be exchanged from time to time with foreign scientists. Supposing a British observer commits an offence at, say, a French Antarctic station, he would be immune from French jurisdiction under the Treaty but when he returned home he could be prosecuted under our law for the offence by this clause. I am sure

745
that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, who I am delighted to see is going to take part in this debate, will refer to this aspect of the Bill; so I will say no more about it.
I hope that from what I have said your Lordships will appreciate the need for this Bill. I can well remember the arguments we had in the Antarctic about whether the fur seal would ever recover from the slaughter of the nineteenth century, and I am glad to be in the position of sponsoring a Bill in your Lordships' House designed to ensure, with the support of similar measures on the part of other signatories of the Antarctic Treaty, that the fur seal will never again be subject to near-extermination.
Perhaps this Bill may have some interest by reason of the fascination—and it is a very real one—which the Antarctic Continent by its very nature exercises over people's minds. But apart from this, and more particularly, the Bill arises from a notable and growing collaboration between explorers and scientists of many nations, whose partnership is being fostered, and indeed enabled, by the first significant Treaty between the East and West since the end of the Second World War—namely, the Antarctic Treaty. This in itself is an encouraging step in international relations. And now, pursuant to this Treaty, this Bill, if it is approved by your Lordships, will constitute one further practical step in our share of the responsibility for the proper safeguarding of the natural life and resources in Antarctica. I feel sure that the basic objectives of the Bill will commend themselves to your Lordships, and I hope that, after due debate, the Bill may be given a Second Reading. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Lord Bishop of Norwich.)
4.57 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLET0N): My Lords, it is a very great satisfaction to me that I should have returned to this country to be able to welcome this Bill on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. It is nearly twenty years since I first started, with friends, to advocate the importance of bringing the Antarctic under some form of international control. I should have liked control to be extended to international
746
sovereignty, if that does not seem to be too much of a contradiction in terms. In those days, those who objected to such a course raised a number of arguments, including the argument that it was liable to involve the Soviet Union in a part of the world where at that time they had no presence.
It was inevitable that all the major countries should take an interest in the Antarctic, and so far from being a source of friction, as the right reverend Prelate made clear, it has been the occasion for satisfactory and encouraging collaboration. The right reverend Prelate is himself a distinguished geologist, who has explored both in the Antarctic and the Arctic. As Director of the Scott Polar Research Institute for many years, he has as great a knowledge as anybody in the world of this subject. The Scott Polar Research Institute is possibly the greatest centre in the world for Polar studies and it has made a striking contribution to the happy state to which we have now come. Not so many years ago—indeed, it may have been when the right reverend Prelate was in the Antarctic—shots were actually exchanged in anger, and in those days conflicts on the sovereignty of the Antarctic, particularly between Argentina and Chile, seriously threatened international good relations. It is striking to-day that the issue of sovereignty has literally been put into cold storage, under the Antarctic Treaty, That Treaty is already in force, but this Bill gives effect to certain agreements made under the Treaty, and therefore is very welcome.
I am afraid that I shall not be able to stay for the whole of this debate, but there are two or three points to which I should like to draw attention and which might be of concern to your Lordships. Your Lordships will have noticed that under Clause 2,
"it shall be a defence to prove that the act in question" —
that is, the taking of an animal—
"was done or attempted in a case of extreme emergency involving possible loss of human life …"
This is a somewhat tight requirement, although it can well be got round by unscrupulous people. I remember when in the Antarctic the musk ox was protected—a very mild and rare animal which had never been known to attack a human being, but also a very edible animal—and there was an extraordinary outbreak of

747
ferocity on the part of the musk ox and a number were killed in "self-defence". But the requirements and the obligations under this Bill are so strict that I do not anticipate any evasion of the Act for this purpose.
I would therefore draw particular attention to subsection (6) of Clause 3 which requires that anybody who exercises under a permit the right to take animals should provide a report to the Secretary of State. This means that we shall know the extent to which the collectors and anyone else exercise rights under their permits for scientific purposes, and it will ensure that this is not abused. I am sure, in fact, that it will not be abused.
The other point—and here I embark with some anxiety on Clause 5 in the presence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce—is the application of the criminal law to observers and exchange scientists. On the last occasion when we debated the Antarctic I remember that I had an exchange on a point of international law with the noble and learned Lord, Lord McNair, as to which I subsequently found, having been rather dashed, that I was right and he was wrong. The point, as I understand it—and it will be interesting to hear the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce on this subject—is that part of British municipal law does apply to British nationals within that area of the Antarctic where we have legislation under British Antarctic legislation. This refers, in particular, to what used to be called the Falkland Islands Dependency (I am not sure if it is still called that), which covers an area of the Antarctic over which we claim to exercise sovereignty. The position of sovereignty of countries who made claims in these areas is at the moment frozen. We keep our claims, and we do not seek to pursue them. There is no doubt that the appropriate law applies to British subjects in these "British" areas. But outside, and particularly in an area where there is possibly no jurisdiction at all, it is arguable whether there are not offences that could be permitted. I understand that for the offence of murder you can he brought hack and tried in this country as if the murder had been committed here. I am sorry to say that I cannot remember whether it is rape or bigamy—
LORD WILBERFORCE: Bigamy.
LORD SHACKLETON: It is bigamy, which can be safely committed in certain areas of the Antarctic. But this clause will ensure that this will not be possible, at least if you are an observer or an exchange scientist, because British criminal law will still apply.
To turn to a serious point, it is important that jurisdiction should be established; and, in a sense, it provides a certain protection for British exchange scientists and observers similar to that provided, for instance, under the visiting forces arrangements. This Bill therefore contains matters of real substance, and it is one which I am sure will be welcomed by noble Lords, both for its purpose of preserving wild life and, furthermore, as an indication of satisfactory international co-operation in this area, which certainly bodes well for similar cooperation in other areas, possibly not on the earth's surface. Therefore the Government are happy to welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the right reverend Prelate for the very knowledgeable—as one would expect—and pleasant way in which he introduced it.
5.6 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his clear explanation of what this Bill does. I am particularly grateful, because it means that my remarks need not be long. I am certain that all your Lordships and, one might say, almost all civilised people will welcome the purpose of this Bill. It is really quite an occasion to-day. We have the right reverend Prelate, who is an expert on Antarctica, who introduced the Bill, and we have just listened to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who is not only an explorer himself but the son of (I do not say this in any derogatory sense) an even more famous explorer. It is not often, even in your Lordships' House, that we have a Bill of this kind spoken to by two such experts. I dare say the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, these days rather wishes he was in the Antarctic instead of where he is apt to be: at any rate, it would be cooler.
It has always seemed to me that man has behaved in a particularly revolting way in the Antarctic as regards animal life and fauna. It was, as the right

749
reverend Prelate said, virtually an uninhabited area, unlike the Arctic, where many parts of the region have always been inhabited. Man has done his best, or his worst, to destroy some species of animals. As a rule, he has had some sort of excuse: either that the wild animals were interfering with cultivation which he needed for his own living, or, if he was going to raise cattle, the wild animals were a danger to the cattle. But there has been no excuse for the massacres that have occurred in the Antarctic. One reason was to get rich quick. But, as usually happens, even without this Treaty, this is not now a very satisfactory method of gaining one's livelihood in the Antarctic, because these people have killed the goose that lays the golden eggs—not entirely, but they were on their way to doing so. What makes it even worse is that, so far as man is concerned, those wild animals are such harmless animals. The human race has behaved very badly in that area.
But things have got better in recent years, partly because certain species have become rarer, but also because the nations have started to get together. However, as the right reverend Prelate said, there is an urgency about this Bill and this Treaty, because civilisation, although slowly, is starting to move into the area and civilisation, just by being there, could, unless care was taken, do almost as much damage as, for instance, the sealers hunting the fur seals. So this is a most important Bill and Treaty. It is an important Treaty, too, because countries which, in theory, have been enemies, have decided not to seek sovereignty but to work together. So, my Lords, I am going to ask the noble Baroness who is to reply for Her Majesty's Government only one or two questions to which I should like an answer, and I know that your Lordships will support the Bill. I am a little surprised, I must say, to see only one member of the Liberal Party on the Liberal Benches, because in reading the Treaty I noticed that one of the Protected Areas was the Byers Peninsula. However, perhaps that slipped their notice.
The questions I want to ask the noble Baroness are simply these. The right reverend Prelate said, I think, that four other nations have passed legislation. Can the noble Baroness tell us the stage the other signatories have reached in their
750
legislation? Secondly, are the penalties under the legislation of the other countries which have so far passed legislation equivalent to the kind of penalties that our nationals will suffer if they misbehave? I think there is a feeling that they should be at any rate more or less as rigorous, although they need not be the same. My final question is this. Is anything being done, either at the United Nations or as between countries separately, to persuade other nations which are not signatories to this Treaty to join the Treaty and to sign it in the near future? I know that the countries which signed were those which are at present involved in the Antarctic, but there are one or two quite major countries which are not signatories, and which have not so far been very much involved. They might, however, well be if the seal population, for instance, increases very rapidly owing to the protective methods we are now taking. Further damage to the breeding of seals, and so on, might be caused in the future. Subject to those questions, I hope that your Lordships will support this Bill and give it a Second Reading.
5.12 p.m.
LORD WILBERFORCE: My Lords, I am very happy to add a few words in support of this Bill from the legal angle, in order to emphasise, if I may, the very great interest which lawyers generally, and international lawyers in particular, have in this type of legislation and in this subject. Conservation is not of course a new problem, in any sense. It arises from the fact—it is a legal fact of life, if you like—that the high seas are considered free. All those things that are in the high seas or in the air or on icebound continents are what the law calls res communis; anybody may take them. But, even so, these things are not inexhaustible, and if not protected they are exposed to what the noble Lord has just described as the predatory instincts of man. So we have had a long series of treaties, conventions, and agreements, starting from the North Seas Fisheries Convention of 1882 and going down to the Geneva Convention on Fisheries and Conservation in 1958, and dealing with such varied subjects as fur seals, halibut, sockeye salmon and, of course, whales. So the problem is also very much in the thoughts of international lawyers.

751
It is interesting to notice the progress which is marked by this particular Agreement in our scale of values. Let us take the Geneva Convention of 1958—only nine years ago. That defines "service" as:
"an aggregate of the measures rendering possible the optimum sustainable yield from those resources so as to secure a maximum supply of food and other marine products".
It goes on to refer to the necessity for securing in the first place a supply of food for human consumption. It is interesting to compare with that what one finds in the Agreed Measures in Article VI (which appears in Schedule 2 to the Bill), which says:
"Such permits shall be drawn in terms… only for the following purposes:
(a) to provide indispensable food for men or dogs in the Treaty Area in limited quantities…".
Then it goes on to refer to scientific study and cultural purposes, and later on, in paragraph 4, it talks about maintaining:
"the balance of the natural ecological systems existing within the Treaty Area"
and the necessity of maintaining them; and in Article VIII:
"in order to preserve their unique natural ecological system."
So this Agreement does mark by way of progress, from the rather materialistic considerations of the Geneva Convention, a realisation that ecological values must rank with, or perhaps even above, material values of food and industry—a realisation which one could sometimes wish was present nearer home than the Antarctic.
The right reverend Prelate, in introducing the Bill, referred to the collaboration which this shows between explorers and scientists. I should like to add that it marks also collaboration between law and science in our producing a more civilised world. Lawyers all over the world are doing a great deal of work in these outlying marginal fields, such as the depths of the sea or the environment of man and the atmosphere, and other parts which are not subject to sovereignty of nations, and, of course, progressively in relation to outer space, in order to regulate these areas and bring them within what is a reasonable control.
I think it would be appropriate to recognise in that connection the work of
752
international bodies like the International Law Commission and the International Law Association, and, in this country, the British Institute of International Law and the David Davis Foundation, which have done a great deal of seminar work and propaganda work in getting lawyers interested in this type of subject. That has had the result, which is a happy one, that this country is taking the lead in giving legal effect to this particular type of measure and in giving effect to these treaty obligations.
I was asked to say something about the jurisdictional aspect, but there is not a great deal that it is necessary to say, because, as one would expect, the right reverend Prelate got the matter completely right in what he said. The Bill proceeds on the perfectly sound basis of founding jurisdiction on nationality. We find that in Clause 1 of the Bill. Then there are the provisions to which the right reverend Prelate referred for bringing observers under the jurisdiction of the State to which they belong.
There are some interesting provisions, if noble Lords want to pursue this aspect of the matter, in the Treaty itself. It seems to me very well designed, because there are always problems of jurisdiction where one is dealing with persons who are outside national territory—people in aircraft, people in spacecraft, and so on—and it is not always easy to see how they should he brought within the jurisdiction of States. But if one looks at Article VIII of the Treaty, one sees that, first of all, that sets the principle of nationality: that the observers and staff are brought under the jurisdiction of the State to which they belong. Then, recognising that there may be certain gaps or difficulties, it says that the Contracting Parties are to consult together with a view to reaching acceptable solutions before an arrangement has been made under Article IX. Article IX 1(e) puts Contracting Parties under the obligation to consult together in order to concert measures to deal with:
"questions relating to the exercise of jurisdiction in Antarctica".
So one has this position. The basic principle is nationality. There may be difficulties or gaps or overlaps, but there is a flexible system which the Treaty Parties are under an obligation to operate: to consult together and to agree either a general measure or ad hoc measures in

753
order to produce an ordered state of affairs.
As regards the crime situation, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred, I am afraid that on account of a premature intervention on my part he got the crimes the wrong way round. For "bigamy" he should have said "rape", and for "rape" he should have said "bigamy". However, I do not think that will give rise to any great difficulty. Legally, if I may say so, the Bill seems to be well constructed and to provide an adequate and practical measure of enforcement, and it only remains for me generally, and not only as a lawyer but as one greatly sympathetic to these objectives, to add my voice in hearty support of the Bill.
5.21 p.m.
LORD WADE: My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity of saying a few words in support of this Bill. A few hours ago I was in some doubt as to whether I should be able to do so, as I was waiting on what seemed to be the coldest station platform in England. It seemed at any rate appropriate that I should be anticipating speaking on the Antarctic Treaty Bill, but with the passage of time I began to doubt whether I should be here to take part in the debate at all. However, eventually the train arrived, and it was only an hour and a half late. Therefore I am here in time to listen to, and to take part in, the debate but unfortunately—and I very much regret it—I was unable to hear the right reverend Prelate make his opening speech. I shall therefore be brief.
Last week I was speaking on the subject of international collaboration in a rather different context. This is most certainly a good example of international co-operation. I think we have reason to be thankful that the Antarctic is not—and I hope never will be—a battle ground for power politics. It seems fitting that there should be co-operation in the realm of scientific research and the preservation of the flora and fauna of the Antarctic. I welcome the Bill, and I also welcome the preamble to the Treaty, which reads:
"It is in the interests of all mankind that Antarctica shall continue for ever to be used exclusively for peaceful purposes and shall not become the scene or object of international discord."
I think it is not original on my part to say that I hope that will prove to be a
754
precedent for the international control of the peaceful exploration and use of outer space. Certainly this Bill is a step in the right direction, and there are only two questions I wish to ask.
One question has already been raised; namely, how do we bind other countries in the future who are not parties to the Treaty? And, a slightly different question, how do we deal with a possible dispute between a signatory and nations which are not signatories to the Treaty? It may be that there is an answer in the Bill, but I have not found it. I wish this Bill well, I hope it will have a speedy passage, and I congratulate the right reverend Prelate on introducing it.
5.24 p.m.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, I think it is a matter for congratulation in this House that when we find ourselves debating what can be regarded as rather a remote subject, we have a Bill introduced, welcomed and replied to on behalf of the Government by two of the most distinguished Polar explorers in this country. I, too, welcome the road that Britain has taken—the interesting innovation that science seems to bring nations together more easily than politics. The four countries which have already taken administrative action in this matter were mentioned by the right reverend Prelate—Russia, South Africa, Norway and the Argentine. They are not four countries one would ever get together in any political lobby at any moment in the foreseeable future.
In welcoming this Bill I should like to say a few brief words in regard to some confusion which may exist, not in your Lordships' House, but in the public mind, as between the Arctic, where I have spent some of the happiest times of my life, and the Antarctic, where I have never had the opportunity to go as yet. For 300 years, since Henry Hudson discovered Hudson's Bay, this country has become reasonably familiar with people travelling to and from the Arctic, with the animals that live in the Arctic, and the men who live in the Arctic—in fact everything in the Arctic. There came an heroic age when Antarctic exploration started. It was only in the closing years of the last century that the Antarctic and what it contained was ever heard of in Britain. Therefore, to those who are inclined to mix up the

755
problems of the two, I will risk saying a brief word.
In the Arctic, man is part of the fauna. There he has always been. He is a predator—by far the most dangerous predator, because he is the craftiest. Because of that the fauna of the Arctic has a resilience to being hunted and killed which, so far as I can make out, the fauna of the Antarctic lacks entirely. Although there are certain animals which, while they are not tame in the sense of confiding, are extremely vulnerable, like the musk ox, the caribou and ptarmigan. Yet as a whole they have managed to live together, man and that which he hunts, for a good many centuries.
Then men came from outside with totally different weapons. The whalers came. Rather more than a century ago the harpoon gun was invented and fitted on to steam-driven whalers. By the end of the 1914–18 war the whales had virtually disappeared altogether. The hunters came and hunted the sea otter off Alaska, an animal with a tremendously valuable pelt which is extremely vulnerable because it cannot put to sea in a gale. The whales and the sea otters were virtually obliterated in the first half of this century.
Then the Eskimos managed to acquire rifles, instead of hunting with bows and arrows. Her Majesty the Queen has no more cheerful subjects than the Eskimo. I have spent some of the happiest hours of my life in Eskimo company, and I have travelled the best part of 3,000 miles with a dog team with one Eskimo in particular. I shall mention him in a moment. The Eskimo is a man who has one dimension less in his life than we have, in the sense that it is possible to say that time and space are the same thing with him. Utterly oblivious of the past, utterly indifferent to the future, always abundantly cheerful, what he is doing and where he is doing it is one and the same thing. He is therefore the worst conserver of wild life, because he never looks into the future at all. With the rifles the Eskimos managed to acquire they virtually annihilated the caribou and made tremendous inroads on the herds of walrus and herds of seals.
Now the Eskimo is ceasing to be a hunter. He is taking up a more sedentary form of life and, sure enough, with
756
the tremendous resilience that the Arctic fauna has, it is coming back. The Eskimo with whom I used to travel was in his thirties at the time—just before the war—and he told me that as a child the caribou used to come down beside the coast where he lived, and he used to shoot them with a bow and arrow from behind a rock. Twenty years later we had to go 200 miles to find one. Four years ago I was back in that part of the world and the caribou had ceased to be hunted. Their numbers had proliferated and they were back, almost as they had been in my friend's childhood.
I mention that to show the resilience which I believe is lacking in the Antarctic. The Antarctic is very little known. It has all been seen from the air, but that is a tremendous difference from being explored. People forget its enormous size—the size of the United States of America and Europe put together. It is an enormous mountainous mass—so mountainous that Chile based her claim to Antarctic territory on the proposition that the Antarctic is in fact a continuation of the Andes. It is a place with 90 per cent of the world's ice, but in spite of all that it manages to have a pretty rich and varied fauna. It is in a sense, as I understand it, an enclave, but not entirely so, because about half the 80 varieties of birds migrate, and the whales seek the northern and warmer waters from time to time. But to a great extent they are locked into the Antarctic and are, as the right reverend Prelate has said, absolutely tame and absolutely defenceless. Before the heroic age of Antarctic exploration no man went there; there were only one or two expeditions. Now, as the right reverend Prelate has said, in the Antarctic to-day the population of men is 700 at the least, and something around 3,000 at the most.
To shield the fauna from man's disruptive incursions is the purpose of the Bill which I think we can all support most warmly. I am told by a leading scientist that we have in fact made our presence felt ahead of us, in the sense that of the poison sprays and the like which are getting into the system of birds in this country, traces have been found in the birds in the Antarctic. We have a pretty considerable responsibility in this matter. The fauna of the Antarctic seem to have been a unique problem, in the

757
sense that they have their own particular continental characteristics.
One penguin, I was informed by a well known scientist, taken from its colony to a colony 3,000 or 4,000 miles away on the other side of the continent, managed to return in the course of one Antarctic winter to its original colony. So the fauna appear to have a curiously stratified society, about which as time goes on we shall know more. When we put into effect what is an international Treaty to do what every one of us would wish to do, there is little latitude for originality.
But this Bill is admirably drafted. The right reverend Prelate in introducing it, so skilfully and charmingly, said that this is probably the last unspoiled continent. Let us do the best we can to keep it so.
5.32 p.m.
LORD RITCHIE-CALDER: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I want to welcome this Bill and to thank the right reverend Prelate for introducing it, particularly in view of the authority which he brings to it himself, and to follow my noble friend Lord Shackleton and all he stands for in terms of his father. Like the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, I am an Arctic man myself, but we are very broadminded, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, said, what has happened in the Arctic over the centuries is a reminder to us that at least in looking at the other frozen continent or area we should, in those terms and in the terms of this Bill, safeguard what is still intact.
This is an occasion for a fanfare of muted trumpets. It may seem a very modest Bill, certainly a very romantic Bill in the sense of the area we are dealing with; but I would suggest to your Lordships that this is in fact an historic Bill. It is an endorsement of the Antarctic Treaty of 1959, and in its expression and embodiment into our law, and in the extension of your Lordships' jurisdiction to 60 degrees South, it represents a very big advance in the approach to the rule of law in global terms. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, has stressed this. He stressed what I also would stress: beyond the co-operation of the scientists and explorers, the co-operation of the lawyers, the recognition that here, out of one of the greatest experiments of our time, which was in fact the International
758
Geophysical Year, in this fantastic cooperation of the scientists of the world, in every part of the world, and notably in the Antarctic, comes this Treaty, this combination of influence of the scientists, and through the scientists of the lawyers, on public opinion.
We now have something which is profoundly significant. It is not a renunciation of sovereignty. The Treaty very tactfully, if I may say so, and very successfully, avoids raising issues of sacrifice of sovereignty. The existence of the overlapping claims of Chile, Argentine and Britain in terms of the Falkland Islands or Graham's Land is quietly overlooked, and I think this is as it should be. In the working out of the Bill we are now discussing, in the application of that in the conservation of the continent itself, we shall get a working relationship which will override politics. It has been agreed under this Treaty that:
"No acts or activities taking place while the present Treaty is in force shall constitute a basis for asserting, supporting or denying a claim to territorial sovereignty… or create any rights of sovereignty. No new claim, or enlargement …"
and so on. This is tremendously important because, as has been pointed out, there are real possibilities of very considerable substantial commercial exploitation of Antarctica.
I should say that the most imminent one—though not one that need necessarily give us serious concern—will certainly be the development of aviation. This is the grand circle route which is going very drastically to alter the flying routes of our planet. But over and above that—and I think many noble Lords will recognise it—the Antarctic Continent has in fact very substantial resources. The resources are still buried under perhaps 10,000 ft. of ice, but they are certainly exploitable. My noble friend Lord Shackleton's father in 1908 discovered coal seams 8 ft. thick at the top of the Beardmore Glacier. There have been more coal seams found in Antarctica, showing that this area was an area of tropical primæval forest.
I do not think any of us here, or any scientist, seriously thinks that in fact the world has tipped or that the equator was once at the South Pole. What it does mean is that the continent itself has moved. I think those who follow the present discussions on the Wegener

759
theory on continental drift, which is now being very substantially borne out by scientific evidence, will recognise that what we are considering to-day is even more romantic than the right reverend Prelate has put it—the lost Continent of Gondwanaland. The area fits back in the jigsaw puzzle to make the one complete land mass which the Wegener theory assumes existed and then broke up. There has always been one part missing in what is now the Indian Ocean, and very beautifully Antarctica fits in; and once you have fitted it in you realise the tremendous possibilities. This is the bridge of the Rand and Broken Hill; this is the pipes of diamond. There is evidence, apparently, of the existence of petroleum which would link up again with the Persian Gulf.
It is a very attractive picture, and I am afraid that in commercial terms it might prove over-attractive. But at least in this new Treaty, which we are helping to implement through this Bill, we have something which is a contradiction of what was the political predatoriness of the nineteenth century. One could consider 1855, the Conference of Berlin, carving up the Continent of Africa. Here in our terms is the combination of politically and ideologically separate countries taking part in deciding that Antarctica shall not be carved up. I think this is a tremendous advance in our approach to the rule of law in the world and a fine example.
I would follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, in stressing also that this is now the beginning of a whole series of such treaties. Out of the International Geophysical Year which gave us the Antarctic Treaty we also have now the Treaty on Outer Space, which embodies pretty well the same principle, so far as space is concerned, as the one we are discussing to-day. I want to go further. I believe that, with the inspiration of the Antarctic Treaty, with the inspiration of the recently agreed Treaty on Outer Space, we should now go into a Treaty on Inner Space. Such a treaty would provide control of the deep seas, not just the high seas but the deep seas, with the incredible wealth, which belongs to no one, which lies beyond the Continental Shelf, and which many
760
believe will provide unlimited minerals, not just oil under the North Sea but almost prefabricated ores, in the shape of the nodules, thousands of millions of tons of which we now know exist in the great depths of the oceans.
This is a problem for mankind. This is not a national problem. No one is going to expand the Continental Shelf claims to the ultimate depth of the sea if any thinking people can stop him. It is here that great activity is going on in inner space, as it has been called, in contrast to outer space. I have here a list of some 30 underwater vehicles of various kinds which are now available for the exploration of the deep, and the extension of the example which was set by Cousteau only a few years ago. In deriving from this Treaty this Bill which we are now discussing, with its admirable intentions, we are also exemplifying a new attitude to the responsibilities of mankind.
5.42 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: My Lords, it is my pleasant duty to support this Bill by declaring an interest as President of the Fauna Preservation Society, of which Mr. Peter Scott is our chairman. As your Lordships know, over many years our Society has helped to foster and encourage conservation over parts of the world, precisely the object of the right reverend Prelate's Bill, to which, therefore, our Society gives wholehearted welcome. The Agreed Measures in the Bill for the vast Antarctica are essential, and I hope will become the envy of experts. So far, measures in other parts of the world have come too late, but this continent may remain an example of how conservation can come in time. Therefore, besides our thanks to those who have prepared the Bill in another place and here, I think we should add our thanks to the Scientific Committee for Antarctic Research at Cambridge, who started their work many years ago, to the Joint Research Department of the Foreign Office and the Central Office of Information, all of whom have been helpful to those interested in the safe passage of the Bill. I am sure they will agree that all the work that they have done has been in a worthy cause.

761
As regards Dr. Roberts of the Scott Polar Research Institute at Cambridge, I should like in closing to quote a few of his words from our Journal Oryx. He says:
"Meanwhile, let us do our best to preserve for our successors some of the most interesting and exciting biological spectacles to be found anywhere on earth: the great seal and penguin colonies; the soaring of the wandering albatross; the fantastic evening flight of uncountable millions of "
birds, and:
"…a small Colobanthus flowering in isolated desolation—those who have been fortunate enough to witness these things will never forget the joy they evoked"
5.44 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I am sure that every one of your Lordships will join with me in congratulating the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich on the admirable way in which he introduced this Bill to-day. I must say that I personally was charmed by his story of the penguins, and one would wish that the observers we appoint to these far corners of the world were as peaceful in their habits as are these gentle birds. We are indeed fortunate in having as sponsor of the Bill one who has had such a close connection with the Antarctic, both as a field scientist and as an administrator in the years when he was Director of the Scott Polar Research Institute in Cambridge. We are also deeply grateful to the many noble Lords who have taken part in this debate on this occasion, distinguished not only in their own fields of operation but in the contributions that they make to the debates in this House.
The questions put to Her Majesty's Government are not many in number, and I shall attempt to reply to them. The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, inquired as to the stage reached in regard to the other signatories. Four nations have already given effect to the Agreed Measures: the Soviet Union, the Argentine, South Africa and Norway. France has just passed a decree, and Belgium has begun to legislate. Her Majesty's Government are in touch with Australia, New Zealand and the United States, who are preparing legislation. On the second question, concerning penalities, the Russians and the French do not specify penalties. The Argentine personnel, apart from their scientists, are subject to military
762
law. The South African penalties are, again, not known to us. But I should like to assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government will bring the question of parity of treatment of offenders to the notice of the next consultative meeting under the Antarctic Treaty which is to be held in Paris in 1968.
The noble Lord's final question was whether anything is being done to persuade other nations to sign the Treat), and approve the Agreed Measures. So far, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Denmark have acceded to the Treaty. No pressure is being brought to bear on other countries. But if I may remind noble Lords, under Article X of the Agreed Measures, set out on page 19 in the Bill, each of the contracting parties:
"undertakes to exert appropriate efforts, consistent with the Charter of the United Nations, to the end that no one engages in any activity in the Treaty area contrary to the principles or purposes of these Agreed Measures".
The noble Lord, Lord Wade, asked how we deal with a dispute between a party to the Treaty and a non-party. If a nonparty acts in a manner inconsistent with the Treaty, it would be open to the parties, individually or collectively, to bring pressure to bear on the non-party. This is provided for in Article X of the Treaty. In practice, a meeting of the parties might also be called under Article IX of the Treaty. Of course, Her Majesty's Government have a close interest in the Antarctic Treaty, which was rightly described, when it was signed seven years ago, and has been described this evening by so many noble Lords, as a remarkable example of international co-operation recognising, as it does, that:
"it is in the interest of all mankind that Antarctica shall continue to be used exclusively for peaceful purposes and shall not become the scene or object of international discord."
This Treaty, which effectively prohibits the importation of any arms for military purposes, has close and continuing relevance to our efforts to make progress in the fields of arms control and disarmament. It is, I think, instructive to look at what has happened under the Treaty in the light of the debate in your Lordships' House in 1960, before the United Kingdom's Instrument of Ratification was deposited. The subject was introduced at that time by my noble friend Lord Shackleton. At this point I should say that other business in a less peaceful part

763
of the world has regrettably prevented him from accepting this Bill on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, although I am delighted that it was possible for him to take part in to-day's debate.
In 1960, your Lordships were concerned with a Treaty which was not then in force, but which held out hopes for scientific co-operation between the nations working in the Antarctic. In the six years since the entry into force of the Treaty, these hopes have been largely fulfilled. Political differences have receded into the background, due largely to Article IV of the Treaty which, as explained by the right reverend Prelate, "froze" the situation as it affected territorial claims. On the positive side, the exchange of scientists between different nations' stations contributes significantly to the increase in mutual trust and co-operation. Over the last ten years of scientific work in Antarctica, an impressive body of scientific results has been built up through the international exchange of data and through internationally planned research projects. Under the aegis of the Antarctic Treaty Consultative Meetings and the Scientific Committee for Antarctic Research, exploration has now reached the point where, with minor exceptions the whole continent has now been seen, at least from the air, and much of it has been mapped. We can now expect a shift in emphasis from exploration towards long-term detailed scientific studies, particularly in the fields of geophysics and Antarctic biology.
I should like also to refer briefly to our experience under those provisions of the Treaty which are specifically concerned with ensuring the peaceful use of the Antarctic continent. The principal provisions are Article I, which provides that
"Antarctica shall be used for peaceful purposes only"
and goes on to prohibit the establishment of military bases, and Article V, which prohibits nuclear explosions. The Antarctic Treaty is of the greatest significance and is especially topical now because those provisions are backed up by a working system of inspection enabling each party to verify that the prohibitions are being respected. Under Article VII of the Treaty any Treaty Power may appoint observers to visit and inspect the Antarctic stations established by any other Treaty Government. Under the same
764
Article all Treaty Governments exchange information on their planned operations for the coming year. Information is also required on ships, aircraft, vehicles, armaments, small firearms, military personel, and scientific equipment. Such information amounts to a reasonably complete inventory of all the items which could conceivably conceal a military operation which would be contrary to Article I of the Treaty. The information is in the hands of the observer when he is making his inspection and may be checked by him, on the ground, for accuracy and completeness.
Your Lordships will be aware of the difficulties concerning inspection that have arisen in international discussions on disarmament. We have here in the Antarctic a working system which has already been used by the United States, Argentina and ourselves. The United States exercised her rights in 1963 and again in 1967, and inspections have included Argentine, Australian, Chilean, French, Japanese, Soviet, South African and United Kingdom stations. We have also exercised our rights twice to inspect United States stations. Our inspectors have been Lieut. Commander Erskine, R.N., who inspected the America stations at McMurdo Sound, Byrd and at the South Pole in December, 1963. In February, 1966, Captain Sandford, R.N. and other officers of H.M.S. "Protector" inspected the American station at Anvers Island on the West side of the Antarctic peninsula. Argentina has also inspected a United States station. None of these inspections has shown any activities contrary to the spirit and purposes of the Antarctic Treaty. It was not, of course, expected that they would, but they have provided experience of the practical possibilities of inspection which is applicable to wider and more urgent problems.
This is a valuable provision in the Treaty and it has formed the precedent for similar provisions for inspection of stations in outer space in the Space Treaty recently signed in Washington, Moscow and London. In the future, inspection is likely to become more usual as a means of policing international agreements, and I hope that other Antarctic Treaty Powers will make use of the opportunities offered to them under the Antarctic Treaty to gain experience in this field.

765
Another way in which the Treaty is operating smoothly is shown by the friendly relations that have developed at the four Consultative Meetings which have been held so far. It was at the Third Consultative Meeting, held in Brussels in 1964, that the text of the Agreed Measures (forming, Schedule 2 to the Bill) was drawn up. The Fourth Consultative Meeting at Santiago last November, recommended, in the light of scientific advice given to Governments, that the special protection envisaged under the Agreed Measures should be extended to the two species and fifteen areas set out in the Annex to Schedule 2 to the Bill.
I should like to thank your Lordships for the valuable points that have been made in this debate about the Treaty and the Agreed Measures for the Conservation of Antarctic fauna and flora. I should say at once that the provisions of the Agreed Measures are fully supported by Her Majesty's Government and that we support the passage into law of this Bill designed to give effect to them.
5.54 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICH: My Lords, there is little I need say, in replying, other than to express an indebtedness to all your Lordships who have made contributions to this debate. I am grateful that in every case this Bill has been supported and that questions which have been asked have not been by way of criticism of the Bill itself but designed merely to get further information. This pays tribute to the way the Bill has been drafted. It passed without comment in the other place, and speeches during the Second Reading and Committee stage contained no criticism of the Bill itself. Therefore, we owe much to Dr. Roberts and others who have assisted in drafting the Bill and to members of the Consultative Meetings and the Scientific Committee for Antarctic Research.
I am glad the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, drew attention to the importance of the co-operation and contribution of lawyers in this matter. The noble Lord himself speaks as one who has taken an active part in International Law, and I am grateful that he was able to take part in this debate and emphasise this aspect. Since the Antarctic Treaty came into force, happily the turn of
766
events has been from a good deal of international friction which had existed before the Treaty came into force to international co-operation which has been progressively strengthened. This in itself is something greatly to be welcomed. Apart from this, I hope that your Lordships will support the Bill which will do something to preserve this continent and its wild life for posterity.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUSTRIAL INJURIES) (AMENDMENT) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

ST. TERESA'S MATERNITY HOSPITAL
5.57 p.m.
EARL FERRERS EARL FERRERS rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will advise the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board to reconsider their decision to withdraw the grant for contractual beds from St. Teresa's Maternity Hospital at Wimbledon. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I bring this Question to the attention of your Lordships because the decision to withdraw this grant has caused widespread concern to all the people who have had anything to do with this hospital, whether they are patients, or ex-patients, doctors or nurses, or whether they merely reside in the locality. Indeed, the interest in this decision goes far wider even than the locality. It has stirred the interest of people who do not live in the locality; it has stirred the interest of the newspapers and television. It has resulted in a spirited lobbying by mothers and their children of their Members of Parliament. And some 5,000 people are expected to meet in Trafalgar Square and to march upon Downing Street next Sunday with a petition to the Prime Minister begging him to keep the hospital open. Such concern is not generated lightly.
I should like to give your Lordships the background to this case. The hospital is run by Roman Catholic nuns of

767
the Order of St. Anne. I hasten to add that their patients are not restricted to Roman Catholics, but are of any and of no persuasion. It was started in 1938 as a hospital for cancer patients, and in 1948, when the National Health Service took over, the cancer patients were moved to another hospital and St. Teresa's became a maternity hospital. At that date it catered for 22 patients. In 1951 an extension was opened by Sir William Gilliatt, bringing the number of beds to 40. In 1956 another extension was opened by Lord Evans, and in 1959 a third extension was opened by Lady Dorothy Macmillan. Last year a fourth extension was opened, enabling the hospital now to cater for 70 patients. Of these 70 patients, between 40 and 50 are National Health Service patients and the remainder, about twenty, are private or semi-private patients.
In addition to carrying out its duties as a maternity hospital, St. Teresa's is a teaching hospital. In 1955 the hospital started to train two students a fortnight in midwifery, and this still continues. In 1962, obstetric courses, which last for three months, were started for 16 nurses from St. George's Hospital, and this forms part of the training for their S.R.N. In 1966, 20 hand-picked students were sent from St. George's Hospital to St. Teresa's for an experimental course in obstetrics, as part of a scheme to see whether it were possible for the S.R.N. course to be condensed from three to two years. These girls were hand-picked; so, presumably, was the hospital. In 1966 the Central Midwives Board approved St. Teresa's as a training centre for Part II midwifery, allowing those who passed to become fully-qualified midwives, practising midwifery in any part of the world.
I mention these details at some length to stress that this is not a small, pokey, little substandard hospital, but a maternity hospital of outstanding ability and qualifications, built specifically as a maternity hospital and recognised as a teaching hospital. It is this which the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board have decided in their wisdom to close down; or, to put it more accurately, from which they intend to withdraw their grant of some £70,000 a year so that it probably will close down. Why is this to be done?—for one simple reason, that the State is building a new maternity wing at Queen
768
Mary's Hospital, Roehampton, and it is therefore considered that the beds at St. Teresa's will be superfluous. But is this so? The Minister says, "Yes". But this is not the view of people in the locality. This is not the view of the local authorities, such as the Wandsworth Borough Council and the Merton Borough Council; and indeed it is not the view of the Merton and District Trade Council who are highly concerned at the closure of St. Teresa's.
The Minister said in another place, that the building of this wing will form part of a district general hospital, and that it is in the interests of the safety of mothers and babies. The standard of nursing at St. Teresa's is so high that since 1948, when it started. 19,000 mothers have been delivered of their babies in this hospital, and not one mother has died. In 1948 the national average of deaths among mothers having babies was 3 per 1,000, which has now dropped to 1 per 1,000. But in St. Teresa's there have been no deaths out of 19,000. Therefore, it would hardly seem to be in the interests of mothers and babies that this hospital should be closed.
Is St. Teresa's to be eliminated from the Health Service in the interests of economy? The answer is, No. The cost per bed per day in St. Teresa's, given by the Minister, is £4 12s. 11d.—and, if I may say so, a figure of unusual, uncanny precision. The estimated cost at Roehampton—and noble Lords will know that Government estimates are invariably on the low side—is not £4 12s. 11d. but £6: an increase of 30 per cent. over the cost of St. Teresa's.
Noble Lords may be interested to know that the State has not had to pay one penny towards the capital cost of St. Teresa's, either of the building or its contents. This has to be found by the Order. But it does pay to the Order the sum of £291 per month for the use of the building and its contents; what one can loosely describe as rent. Your Lordships know that within half a mile of where we are sitting there are three-bed-roomed flats which command a rent of £2,000 a year. The Health Service is paying not £2,000 a year but £3,500, not for a three-bed-roomed flat but for a 70—bedded hospital, fully equipped with all modern devices, fully equipped with labour wards and theatres; and within this same figure is the service of 20 nuns.

769
Indeed, these ladies work for 12 hours a day. Their responsibility is with them even on their time off. They work seven days a week, and they have two weeks holiday a year, with an occasional weekend in the winter if the strain gets too much for them. So if we are talking of economics and money, I think your Lordships will agree that this is dirt cheap at the price.
Your Lordships may also be interested to know that a matron of the equivalent standard of the matron at St. Teresa's, were she paid on the Whitley scale in a State hospital, would receive the sum of £1,460 a year. A qualified midwifery tutor would receive the sum of £1,200 a year. The matron of St. Teresa's has both these responsibilities and receives nothing. A qualified nursing sister would receive up to £1,200 a year but the nuns, also qualified, receive nothing. Who benefits?—the State.
But there is one inestimable benefit which St. Teresa's has. If I were asked what was the greatest shortcoming of the National Health Service, I should unhesitatingly say the lack of personal relationship between, on the one hand, the doctors and nurses, and, on the other hand, the patients; the fact that the patient so often feels that he is being treated as a case and not as an individual. But it is just this quality of personal relationship in which St. Teresa's excels, whether the patient is a married mother or an unmarried mother. I stress this, because 10 per cent. of the patients at St. Teresa's are unmarried mothers, and your Lordships know only too well that this type of patient needs a very personal and specific form of help.
The love of the nuns, the devotion to their work and to their patients, the atmosphere of happiness and selflessness are there to be sensed by anyone who cares to visit this hospital. This is at the moment being given to the Health Service. Of course, the trouble is that these qualities, like so many other valuable ones, cannot be measured by statistics. But it is because they cannot be measured by statistics that their value should never be underestimated, because they can never be taught. They should, indeed, be prized and guarded and not be allowed, like some small candle, to be snuffed out with a puff.
People love this hospital. They love what it is and they love what it does, both medically and in terms of humanity. Forty-seven thousand people—and that is a great many—have signed a petition asking the Government to keep this hospital open. But no, the Board says that it must be closed. Why?—because it does not fit in with some planner's plans. But there must be a point on the graph where the curve depicting the advantage to be gained from a plan is crossed by the curve depicting the advantage gained from skill, devotion, tenderness and practical common sense.
Who are the people who have decided to cut right across the grain of public feeling and the grain of economics? They are the members of the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board. They are not elected by anyone. They are appointed by the Minister for a term of office, and they are directly responsible to him. One would have thought that, after taking such a decision which has aroused such feeling, the Chairman of the Board would at least have taken the opportunity of going down to see St. Teresa's, to see what it is that he is closing which has caused such an uproar. But this has not happened.
I am glad to see the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, in his place this afternoon; and I realise, of course, that, by the Addison Rules—which, by some unfortunate quirk of providence, were adumbrated by his father and were then generally accepted by your Lordships' House—he may feel it, if not impossible at any rate difficult to participate in the debate this afternoon. But I hope the noble Viscount will not feel that I am hitting him whilst his hands are tied behind his back if I say that I am astounded that he should have taken this decision, have watched the public outcry grow and have stuck firmly to his decision and yet never have visited the hospital or ever shown any willingness or intention to do so.
One might have thought that the senior medical officer to the Board, Dr. Taylor, would have considered a visit to the hospital appropriate. But no; he also has not made a visit to the hospital. Indeed, he has never visited the hospital since his appointment as senior medical officer.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, will the noble Earl allow me to interrupt him before he pursues this line of argument even further? Would he be good enough to say that my noble friend Lord Addison invited members of the Hospital Committee and other members of St. Teresa's to visit him at his office and discuss these matters?
EARL FERRERS: Of course the noble Viscount has; but my complaint is that he has taken a decision not even having seen the building or the hospital to which his decision, which has had this devastating result, refers. I say with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, that that does not answer the point at all. The noble Viscount, Lord Addison, as chairman, has not visited the hospital; nor has his senior medical officer; nor, indeed, has any other of the 25 members of the Board. I can only say that I consider that such action, which has had such far-reaching consequences and which was taken without ever a visit having been made by anyone, is nothing short of a public scandal.
Yet my Lords, it is this decision, taken by a Board who have shown that their interests in this hospital are confined to the boardroom table arid to the statistics which are placed upon it, which the Minister is seeking to back up. One might have thought, again, that the Minister of Health would have considered, with such a feeling growing, that at least a visit to the hospital would prove both prudent and fruitful. Indeed, he has been invited to visit the hospital on two occasions, both in his official capacity as Minister of Health and in his private capacity—not to be lobbied or to be pestered, but just to see what it is that is being closed. But both those invitations the Minister has refused.
My Lords, if this decision to withdraw the grant from St. Teresa's, whose object is to work for the poor and for the unmarried mother, is to be maintained and the grant removed, the Health Service will be losing a unique hospital—unique in the very qualities which the Health Service is lacking. There is no Party issue here, and I have no doubt that the Minister and the Board have acted with the best of motives. But mistakes can be made; wrong decisions can
772
be taken by the best of men acting with the best of intentions and the highest of motives. But decisions are not irrevocable if there is the intention and the desire to see that, in the end, the right decision is made. A mistake has been made over St. Teresa's and a wrong decision has been taken, but it is not irrevocable if there is the real intent and determination to see that, in the end, the right course of action is taken.
St. Teresa's is an outstanding hospital. Its medical record is outstanding, its cost to the State is outstanding, its service to the National Health Service is outstanding, the devotion of its nurses is outstanding and the love of and by the people whom it serves is outstanding. Its only crime is that it does not tit in with some planner's plan. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, will give a helpful reply this evening; but even if he cannot be as helpful or as conciliatory as I should wish, I beg him to go back to his right honourable friend and say, "Minister, think again".
6.15 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for having raised this matter. It is one which admittedly is causing concern, at any rate in that part of the area for which the South-West Metropolitan Hospital Board is responsible; and I agree with the noble Earl that a large number of ex-patients and prospective patients are very agitated about what is happening. I think it is right that a matter which is causing so much concern in a particular area should be raised in this House, and the noble Earl has raised it in a fair way, although I think he has done less than justice to some of the reasons which prompted the Hospital Board in coming to its conclusion.
Let me say at once that there is no dispute whatever about the very valuable work which the hospital has done and is doing at the present time. No one is suggesting that the work has not been done with skill, with ability, with devotion, and even with dedication. I would not dispute for one single moment the tribute which the noble Earl has paid to those who are concerned with the running of the hospital.

773
What then is the reason for proposing to terminate the contract? It is certainly not on some vague planning ground, as the noble Earl said. Nor does it come as a surprise to the hospital itself. They have known about this for a number of years. For possibly as long as five years they have been aware that this was coming. Therefore it did not come to them as a bombshell. Had they been so minded, they had ample opportunity to make other arrangements for the use of this hospital in ways which would have been equally valuable to the community.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, will the noble Lord excuse me for interrupting him? I wonder whether he could substantiate that statement. I had understood, subject to his correction, that the five Members of Parliament from the area concerned who visited the chairman of the Board asked about these warnings and were unable to obtain any satisfactory confirmation that early warning, at any rate as far ahead as the noble Lord has just mentioned, was ever given. Does the noble Lord have more evidence than I have on it?
LORD SILKIN: Yes, I think so. I think there is some correspondence going back to 1965 from the hospital itself to the Board. That is over three and a half years; but they have known for five years of the plans that were being propounded by the Hospital Board for this area. At least, I presume they have, because the plans have been public knowledge all that time.
LORD HAWKE: Did I hear the noble Lord say from 1965 to the middle of 1967? That is not five years. It is not even three and a half years.
LORD SILKIN: What I am saying is that the hospital have known since the plans for the area were propounded. But certainly they have known since 1965, because there is correspondence on the subject dating back to that time. But whether the period is two, three or five years is not the vital point. The point is that the hospital have not been taken by surprise. This has not been a bombshell to them, and they have had ample time to consider what to do. In any event, this contract is not coming to an end until the end of this year, so they will have had ample time, had they so desired,
774
to make other plans for the use of their hospital.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the noble Lord will agree that, as the contract is coming to an end at the end of the year, those mothers-to-be who would be expecting to occupy places in this hospital have now to make alternative arrangements. Therefore, in effect, the change is coming into effect now.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble Lord can do arithmetic as well as I can; but the number of women who are to-day making preparations for the use of this hospital by the end of the year must be very limited indeed. Certainly alternative arrangements will be available for them. There will be no difficulty: no woman will be left without proper attention and treatment.
My Lords, the question then is: What is in the best interests of the community itself, taken as a whole? I would not dispute the fact that one must throw into the balance—and it is a balance—such questions as the personal relationship between the staff and the patients. I agree that those are excellent, and that it may well be that those personal relationships will be closer and more to the comfort of the patient than they would in a general hospital. But, when all that has been said, the fact is that some five years ago a plan was drawn up for the purpose of providing accommodation for obstetric treatment in this area. I think no one will dispute that it is right that the Board should have looked ahead. There were figures projected as to what would be the ultimate requirements of the area, and on the basis of those forecasts new accommodation was provided and will become available from the beginning of the year.
This accommodation consists, first, of some 50 beds at Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton. This will, of course, be first-class accommodation. It will have available X-ray and laboratory facilities; it will have the services of a professor of obstetrics and will be closely associated with Westminster Hospital. It will have facilities for student nurses from Westminster Hospital, and generally it will be in a position to provide the highest service of this kind for expectant mothers. In addition, there will be accommodation for ten more beds in the Queen Charlotte's Hospital at Richmond this year. Here

775
again it will be in association with a teaching hospital; and everyone knows that Queen Charlotte's Hospital has the highest reputation of any hospital in this field. Moreover, a further 12 beds will be provided at Kingston, making 72 in all.
My Lords, the fact is that at the present time the total number of beds is not being fully used. It was expected that beds would be occupied to the extent of about 70 per cent.; but in fact this is not happening. Whether there has been a decline in the birth rate or whether there is some other reason, the beds are not being occupied to the full. And with the coming into operation of these new beds that I have mentioned there is no doubt that the beds at St. Teresa's for obstetric purposes will become redundant. In face of all this, as I see it, the Hospital Board had no alternative but to terminate the agreement and to ask the hospital whether they could not use their accommodation in some other way in the public interest. The hospital had no difficulty in making a change from cancer treatment to obstetrics when the Health Service came into operation. Good luck to them! I think it very praiseworthy that they adapted themselves to the requirement of the time. The present time necessitates further adaptation. I hope they will not feel that there is any indignity or any kind of discrimination against them. They are asked once more to adapt themselves to changing circumstances.
I would ask the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, what he would do in the circumstances. Here are these beds becoming available. Here are the needs. What would he do?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I would answer by asking the noble Lord another question. Does he think it prudent expenditure of public money to build maternity wings for hospitals which will result in maternity hospitals now in use becoming redundant?
LORD SILKIN: The noble Earl answers my question by asking me another. I would answer by repeating mine. But I will answer him. The fact remains that here are these beds. Provision was made for them some years ago when, on the best information available, it was believed they would be required to meet the needs of a rising population. Here
776
they are. They exist. The noble Lord can perhaps say that in 1960 (or whenever these beds were planned) some mistake was made; but they were planned in good faith. Here they are. The question is—it can be a rhetorical one—what is the Board to do in these circumstances, when they already have available 72 beds, which they are going to have some difficulty in filling, and when there are another 40 beds in St. Teresa's. I would submit that they did the only possible thing—and the noble Lord does not challenge their good faith in the matter; he merely says they made a mistake—in giving as long notice as possible of the termination of this agreement.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is advocating that the hospitalisation in this country should be so completely regionalised that it is quite impossible for a patient to go across a boundary? Surely there is no superfluity of maternity beds generally over the Metropolitan area.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the South-West Metropolitan Board already covers a very large area. It does not comprise merely the Borough of Wandsworth or another London borough. It is a wide area. There must be a limit, and I think this limit is already being reached in the South-West Metropolitan area.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt but this is a point of some importance. The noble Lord has made considerable play with the statement that there is, or will be, a superfluity, of beds in this area. This is not accepted by the local health authorities. I have here two resolutions, one from the Health Committee of the Merton Borough Council, the other from the Health Committee of the Wandsworth Borough Council. They are resolutions to the Minister of Health on the closure of St. Teresa's; so this is up-to-date information. That from Merton says that:
"… the Council considers that there is already a local shortage of beds for maternity cases in the Borough."
Merton says there is a shortage. So does Wandsworth. Neither supports the statement that has just been made.
LORD SILKIN: I do not know whether they have directed their minds to the statement that I am making. I am taking the region as a whole. It is a very big

777
region and, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, you must not compartmentalise these cases into Merton and Wandsworth. It may be that in fact there is not enough accommodation within the Borough of Merton, it may be even that there is not enough accommodation within the Borough of Wandsworth, but my case is that there is more than enough accommodation within the area of the South-West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, and that is a very different thing from what the noble Lord was saying.
So I hope that some kind of accommodation can be arrived at. I hope that my noble friend will pay a visit to the St. Teresa's Maternity Hospital and discuss the possibility of making use of the accommodation there in a way which would meet a need. There are other departments and other uses which could be made of this hospital so that a real shortage could be met. If some adjustment of this kind could be made, I can assure the noble Earl—at least, I hope I can—that every effort will be made to meet the wishes of the hospital and see that it is allowed to continue the excellent work which it has done in the past.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, sits down, can he describe—I do not think he made it clear—what he considers the new hospital wing will provide that St. Teresa's Hospital does not provide, and whether he thinks it will be done better?
LORD SILKIN: Yes, my Lords, I think it can be done better in the public interest—that is to say (I thought I did explain), that facilities for X-ray examination and laboratory facilities will be provided. There will be available the services of specialists—certainly at Queen Mary's Hospital they will be on the spot—and there will be students and student nurses, in considerable numbers. Generally, I think that the services that will be provided will be better. But that is not part of the case which is being made. It is not suggested, even, that the reason for the change is that better facilities will be provided. The reason is that there are these facilities which have become available; and what is the Hospital Board to do about it? There certainly is not a demand for 72 beds which are available, or will be available by the end of the year, plus the 40 at
778
St. Teresa's Hospital. There is certainly not a demand for 112 beds. What is the Hospital Board to do? I think that in the public interest and in the interests of economy the only thing the Board can do is to ask St. Teresa's Maternity Hospital to consider making use of its accommodation in some other way to fulfil some other need.
6.33 p.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, if I may say so without disrespect, I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has made the best of a very thin case.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, did the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, say the "best", or the "worst"?
LORD WINDLESHAM: The best—I was being polite and generous. I do not want to follow the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, on the detailed points which they have made, because I believe there are some important issues here of general policy. Before coming on to these, however, I will touch on two things said by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. The first was the alternative use to which the 40 maternity beds could be put. I think the noble Lord finds himself in the same difficulty as the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, and Mr. Kenneth Robinson, and others who have not visited the hospital. They do not appreciate the grave difficulties in switching these over to geriatric purposes. This is a compromise solution which has been made by the Regional Hospital Board.
As the noble Earl explained, St. Teresa's is a hospital which, since 1948, has been expanded from 22 beds to 70 beds entirely for maternity purposes. In effect, the additions made since 1948 have constituted a custom-built maternity hospital. On the ground floor, where the old people would have to go, there are a lot of small rooms. Some of these have large glass windows reaching down to the ground, or to a balcony. That, as I think my noble friend, Earl Ferrers, would agree, is one of the attractive features about the hospital. It is situated on the side of a hill, and the mothers can sit on a balcony in the sunshine, or walk up and down. That is one thing which would be unsuitable for old people; they could not be put in rooms where the windows are low, or down to the floor, and a hill outside. It would be too dangerous. Then the hospital is composed of many small

779
rooms, instead of the large wards and communal recreation rooms necessary for old people. In addition, the hospital is specially equipped for maternity work and not for the care of old people. The nuns have acquired a special skill in maternity work over the last twenty years. So there is much more to this than suggesting that all that is required is a little flexibility of mind.
The second point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, if he will forgive me for returning to it—indeed it was the central part of his argument—was that there will not be a need for maternity beds at St. Teresa's when the new wing at Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton, is opened. I read out statements from the Wandsworth and Merton Borough Councils, formal statements, on the record, which do not support that argument. These statements are important because it is these areas which are, in the main, the catchment area for St. Teresa's. Both these statements were quoted in the House of Commons Adjournment Debate as reported in Hansard for April 12. Also the St. Helier Group hospital consultants sent out a letter to general practitioners saying they might not be able to take in all the mothers they had done until now, in particular young mothers between the ages of 18 and 25. The adequacy of maternity provision in the area may be an arguable point, but it should not be taken by noble Lords as a fact that there are enough maternity beds in the area without St. Teresa's.
As I said, my Lords, this decision by the South-West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board raises two issues of principle which are of far-reaching importance. The first is the relationship between public and private provision in hospital care, and the second is the lack of any effective machinery for public participation in policy decisions in the Hospital Service. I think that noble Lords on both sides of the House would agree that in social policy, generally the trend is towards mixed institutions—that is, institutions which are partly supported by fees and partly by public funds. This applies to education in respect of the direct grant schools, and the present approach towards the public schools is, in fact, based on the same idea of mixed
780
institutions. It applies also to housing development by local authorities. The Minister of Housing and Local Government is always urging—correctly, in my view—for provision to be made for houses for letting at economic rents to be included in new housing estates, so that there may be a move away from segregation by class and income. If this is true of education and housing, why should it not be true of hospitals?
In this connection noble Lords opposite, including the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, probably remember that when the Health Service was set up Mr. Aneurin Bevan—perhaps to the surprise of some people—came out strongly in favour of retaining private wings in State hospitals in order to prevent, in his words, "a rash of private nursing homes." He was worried that if there were a lot of private institutions, doctors and nursing staffs might be drawn towards private nursing homes and away from the big general hospitals. I suggest that St. Teresa's is an excellent example of what one might call a direct grant hospital. In addition to its fee-paying patients, who are in a minority and always have been, it provides an excellent service for 40 to 50 National Health Service mothers.
As the noble Earl has said, it is one of the aims of the nuns to provide for poor and unmarried mothers. About 10 per cent. of the National Health Service mothers cared for at the hospital have been unmarried. It is a hospital which is remarkable both for its efficiency—and that is demonstrated by the fact that no mother has been lost in 19,000 confinements over 20 years—and perhaps as important, for its atmosphere of humanity and cheerfulness. The hospital has been extended from 22 beds in 1948 to 70 beds to-day. The cost of three extensions has been met entirely by voluntary subscription. The nuns are unpaid and have little time off. So in my view the Regional Hospital Board are getting a bargain at £70,000 a year. Through this subvention from public funds, an institution has been established where there is a very good mix between fee-paying patients and patients provided for publicly.
The second issue of policy raised by this decision, perhaps for the first time in the history of the Health Service, is the question of responsiveness. Some

781
months ago the decision was taken to discontinue the grant. There may have been warnings put out before, but the time came when the decision was taken. We may assume it was taken at official level on the facts as they were then known. I suppose the decision was later confirmed by the Board. The noble Lord who is to reply can tell me if I am mistaken, but I imagine that was the procedure.
Since then a completely new factor has come into existence—the extraordinary demonstration of public support by the users of the hospital. It is no good saying that the closure of hospitals always provokes an outcry. The five Members of Parliament for the area, from both major Parties, have testified that in their experience they have never seen a public protest like this against an administrative decision. Even the Minister of Health and the Regional Hospital Board are no longer attempting, I notice, to brush this off as a bit of trouble which would all die down by Easter. The opposition has not died down, and it will not die down, because the Board's decision is an unjust one which will deprive the National Health Service mothers of a hospital which many of them have come to love. That cannot be said of many hospitals, but undoubtedly it is true of this one. It is a great mistake to dismiss the opinions of the mothers as emotion. Their feelings cannot be put on one side by the administrators in the Regional Hospital Board, and now by the Government, who are stuck with having to support what the officials decided. These mothers are the users of the maternity services. The hospitals exist for them, and not for the administrators to administer, tidily and neatly.
How are these dissatisfied users to express themselves?—and everyone who opens a newspaper knows that they are dissatisfied on a wide scale. They can express their views in two ways—first, by public demonstration, and then by recourse to Parliament. There is a petition which has been signed by between 45,000 and 50,000 people. There has been a mass lobby in the House of Commons of Parliament from the area concerned. There have been large scale protest meetings, and another is due in Trafalgar Square this Sunday, after which a petition will be presented to the Prime Minister in Downing Street. It is rather unusual
782
for a small hospital with only 70 beds to be able to organise a protest on this scale. The noble Lord, Lord Soper, who knows about organising protests, will be aware that a protest on such a scale about so small a subject is rather exceptional.
There is the alternative of recourse to Parliament, and here the mothers have obtained the unanimous support of all five Members from the area. There have been Parliamentary Questions and an Adjournment Debate. The five M.P.s also went as a delegation to make representations to the Regional Hospital Board. But it has all been to no avail. Nothing has happened. After all the Parliamentary exercises have been gone through, the situation is exactly the same as before.
What are the mothers to do? Here is an administrative decision which is palpably against the wishes of the people whom it is intended to benefit. Where a railway station is closed there is a procedure for public inquiry, and an appeal procedure if the people whose interests are being affected do not agree with what is decided by the public authority. If there is a development scheme, or a compulsory purchase order on one's house, there is a procedure whereby the views of the people concerned can be taken into account. Even in the ill-starred Iron and Steel Act there is provision for a consumer's council, so that consumers can make representations and, if necessary, appeal against decisions. Not so in the Hospital Service. There is no way for the users to make their views known on matters of policy. This is a serious shortcoming, which so far as I know, has not previously come to the surface.
What happens now? If there is another stonewalling answer by the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government to-day, all the opinions of the users of the hospital, of the local population, of the Members of Parliament, of the local authorities—who have gone on record with the resolutions I read out—and much newspaper and broadcast comment, is going to have no effect at all. We must credit the Minister of Health and the Regional Hospital Board with sincerity and a desire to do what they honestly believe to be the best thing for the people in the area. But they are now caught in an impossible situation. A decision was originally taken

783
at official level. We can assume that it was endorsed formally by the Regional Hospital Board. Now the Chairman, the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, and the Minister of Health are stuck with this decision. They cannot afford to go back on it. Ironically, there has been too much public protest. If they now go back on the decision they let down their staff. No one can suppose that the noble Viscount is not deeply disturbed by this whole episode, and this goes for the Minister of Health as well.
The public response to the decision could not have been foreseen, but the system is such that now nothing can be done to change it. Yet if we are to have democratic and representative institutions in this country, and not sweep aside the views of the people whom a social service is intended to benefit, this dilemma has to be resolved in some way. It cannot be left to endless argument and marching up and down in Trafalgar Square. I appreciate the reasons why the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, cannot take part in this debate, but the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, will no doubt put the point of view of the Regional Hospital Board in his reply. The noble Viscount must have given this question a great deal of thought. It is one that has preoccupied me. As a local resident myself, living a few hundred yards away from the hospital, I am well aware of the reputation of St. Teresa's. And from the opportunity I have had of visiting the hospital and meeting the staff, I can confirm everything that has been said in its favour by my noble friend Lord Ferrers.
There is now only one solution. I believe a wrong decision has been taken, on inadequate information, and without taking into account the opinions of the users of the service. To be frank, in these circumstances the only way out is for the Chairman of the Regional Hospital Board to resign. This might be thought too drastic and unfair a proposal. It is unlikely that the Chairman was personally concerned with the original decision at all. But if the Board are to be regarded as directly responsible for a policy decision—and the Parliamentary Secretary made it quite clear in two replies in the Adjournment Debate in another place that he sees this as primarily a matter
784
for the Board—then it seems to me that this is the only solution to the problem.
I do not seek to make this suggestion as a personal criticism of the noble Viscount, Lord Addison. But the structure of the Hospital Service is such that there is no other way for the users to get at the Board. They do not have any representatives on the Board, and, therefore, they cannot ask their representatives to put forward arguments on their behalf. Nor can their representatives themselves resign. Hospital users can make representations through their Members of Parliament; and they have done so. But none of this, as I have said, has had any effect.
In conclusion, I would say that this decision, and this hospital, might seem to be relatively small and unimportant. But when real issues of principle arise, administrative decisions can become symbols of something much more important. Crichel Down was not in itself a very important matter, but it did come to stand for what people generally regarded as a just, fair and reasonable solution. If Governments and Boards disregard deep rooted opinions of this sort, then they do so at their peril.
6.53 p.m.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: My Lords, those of us who care about people must welcome the opportunity that has been given to us to-day to discuss the future of St. Teresa's Maternity Hospital at Wimbledon. We have every reason to be grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for putting down this Question. I am glad to be able to support him, and in doing so I should like to make it clear that I am not speaking as a Roman Catholic. Since the inception of the National Health Service, St. Teresa's Hospital has been used by the South West Metropolitan ' Regional Hospital Board for maternity cases. As we have already heard—and I make no apology for repeating this figure—some 19,000 mothers have been safely delivered of babies there. At a time when the Regional Board had insufficient beds to meet the needs of its maternity cases, St. Teresa's Hospital willingly and efficiently adapted itself to help to bridge the gap. In another place, the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the temporary nature of contractual arrangements with hospitals independent

785
of the National Health Service. I must say, my Lords, that I find an unbroken contract of twenty years duration a pretty strange sort of temporary nature.
During the debate in another place on April 12 reference was made to the comparative cost of a bed in St. Teresa's and the estimated cost of a bed in the new maternity wing at Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton, when it opens next January. The cost at St. Teresa's, as has already been said, was quoted at £4 12s. 11d. a day, as against the estimated cost at Queen Mary's of £6 a day. My Lords, most of us have had experience in our own lives of the inaccuracy of forecasting estimates for potential services, and when the time has come for the actual bill to be rendered the cost is almost invariably higher than we have been led to expect. Indeed, in another place, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health said himself that "estimates tend to go awry". I shall watch the estimated figure with much interest when Queen Mary's maternity beds are in full use.
It appears from that debate on April 12 that the Minister of Health bases his costing of maternity cases upon the length of stay in hospital, rather than upon the cost per bed per day. A comparison was made between the length of stay in Regional Board hospitals, which was, on an average, 9·4 days in 1965, and in St. Teresa's hospital, where it was 12·2 days in 1965 or 11·15 days in 1966.
My Lords, in common with the noble Earl, I have visited St. Teresa's hospital, and when I was there I put this particular question to the Mother General and to Sister Barbara, the matron, who were good enough to meet me and take me round. I understand that the figure given for the average length of stay in St. Teresa's includes the extra length of time that some of the mothers have to stay when they come in before their confinement because of complications in their pregnancies. For instance, in the case of a pregnant mother suffering from toxæmia, it sometimes happens that she may have as much as 14 extra days in hospital before her baby is born; and this will be shown in the final average figure for length of stay. Could the Minister who is going to reply tell us whether the figures for the average length of stay in a Regional Board hospital are based upon
786
the same contingencies and calculated in exactly the same way? If they are, the length of stay of many of the mothers using Regional Board hospitals must be considerably lower than the 9·4 days referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health on April 12; and that, surely, is not a desirable feature.
What I find difficult to understand in the whole of the unhappy developments in this particular case of contractual beds is why no members of the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board have ever been to visit St. Teresa's Hospital. During my time—some twelve years as a member of another Regional Hospital Board—any similar situation such as has arisen between the South West Board and the hospital, where the Board has had contractual beds, and those members of the general public who are deeply involved, would have been personally investigated on the spot by a member or members of the Board in order to get a true picture of all the background facts. But in the case of St. Teresa's Hospital, so far as I am aware, no member of the Board has ever been to the hospital. Officers have been in touch, but even their contact seems to have been somewhat superficial.
It would seem as if the decision to end the contract for maternity beds had been based, as has been suggested by noble Lords this evening, upon paper considerations, with no thought of the people involved—the nuns, the mothers and fathers, or, indeed, the babies. At a time when the Regional Hospital Board had not been in a position to provide sufficient maternity beds in their own hospitals St. Teresa's had provided a very convenient solution. But as soon as the Board gets round to building the new maternity wing at Roehampton, St. Teresa's is written off—though the Board, again to suit their own needs and convenience, are prepared to offer St. Teresa's another temporary contract for three years for 30 geriatric beds or beds for young chronic sick. No thought seems to have been given to the consequent scrapping of the labour wards, the nurseries and the milk kitchen, which would not be needed by geriatric cases. That problem was to be left with St. Teresa's.
My Lords, there seems to have been no regard for the very real and personal feelings of the women who had counted on

787
having their babies in a hospital they knew well and in which, because of its justifiably proud record of safe deliveries, they had every confidence. To have visited St. Teresa's Hospital is an experience I shall not easily forget. I have spent many years closely involved in hospital work. Seldom have I been more deeply impressed than I was by the happy, competent, quiet serenity I experienced when I was taken last week round the hospital by some of the nuns who devote their lives and their trained skill so un-self-consciously to the mothers and the babies in their care.
It may be argued that the hospital staff is not entirely drawn from the sisters of the Community. That is true enough. But the posts of responsibility and leadership are held by nuns who, because of the nature of their dedicated calling, create such an atmosphere of quiet, happy calm that those lay nurses training under them, or working with them, cannot fail to respond. This is by every count a good and happy and a productive place.
I hope, my Lords, that the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, encouraged by the Minister of Health, inspired perhaps a little by some of the thoughts that have found wing in this Chamber to-day, will think again; and that, as a result of their thinking, St. Teresa's will be allowed to continue to bless mothers and babies for many years to come, as I would suggest the Mother General and two of the sisters have blessed this Chamber this afternoon by coming to listen to this debate.
7.2 p.m.
LORD SOPER: My Lords, I take it that it is now my turn to speak, and I speak with a certain diffidence, which your Lordships will understand. I should be very unhappy if anything I said were to be interpreted in a denominational sense. I am a Methodist, and I have been involved for many years in the kind of work to which we are turning our thinking. Let us get two things clearly out of the way. No one thinks more highly than I do, and knows perhaps out of experience more confidently than I do, of the magnificent work that places such as St. Teresa's Hospital have done and continue to do. This is not in debate. The loving care and sense of vocation are only too obvious to all who have
788
any contact with this kind of hospital run by the kind of people with whom we are concerned to-day.
In the second place, there is no question whatever in my mind that enlightened Government must seek indefinitely a marriage between local authorities and central Government and vocational bodies, who have in the past become the bellwethers of enlightened social practice, and who have in many respects worked for their own redundancy. That, I think, is particularly applicable to-day in the emergence of the Welfare State.
Before I venture a little more widely, I should like to deal with a number of the enthusiastic and highly inaccurate statements which have been made. I was much impressed by the enthusiasm of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, but I must point out that in many respects he created a good deal of heat but not very much light. Moreover, he was severely at fault in a number of misstatements he made—not least, the statement that this hospital was being closed down. Let us clear up that point straight away, because there is no suggestion that this hospital should be closed down. In fact, the evidence—and I can give specific dates and figures—indicates how clearly a contractual undertaking was arrived at some years ago; and even then it was known that modifications, in view of other practices and other procedures, would be required.
On October 18, 1963, St. Teresa's indicated that they were aware that a maternity unit would be opened at Queen Mary's, Roehampton; and on October 21 the Board replied that this would not be in the next eighteen months to two years, but that it might well be that modifications would be necessary in about one and a half years to two years' time. This does not entirely remove the problem, but it casts a much more radical light upon it, and the inference which has to be drawn is an inference which, I think, belongs to the very nature of this kind of work. Furthermore, it is the kind of work which I think the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, must not castigate, when it is taken over by public authorities, with this old and weary cliché that personal relationships are lost in public institutions. This simply is not true. I have a pretty long experience of public hospitals, and I am continuously

789
encouraged—and sometimes, I confess, surprised—at the amount of care and personal attention which is given to people, whoever they are, and the almost universal gratitude which patients express (and this also is gratifying) for the attention they have received.
I hope that this stale assumption that public authorities do not provide personal attention, and that only private and vocational authorities do, is not going to be argued out in your Lordships' Chamber again to-day; because this is an old subject, and it is not true.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? As he has attributed those sentiments to me, I think it would be fair to make it perfectly plain that what I said was that in my opinion this was the greatest shortcoming of the Health Service. I did not say that this personal attention did not exist.
LORD SOPER: My Lords, the noble Earl would prefer me to say, "it is in short supply".
EARL FERRERS: Yes.
LORD SOPER: I would repudiate that as well. I understand this point; I know how often it is repeated and how familiar it is, but I want to say how clearly and categorically I repudiate it.
I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, for his comments about my own acquaintance with public outcries and "raising steam" in public matters under consideration. This is perfectly true. But I am not sufficiently naïve to believe that this cannot be contrived, and I am not sufficiently naive to believe that this is a matter which should be taken as an indication of public outcry in itself. I can imagine what would happen, for instance, if the local authorities in Lincolnshire decided to close Epworth Rectory. The local inhabitants of Epworth are a very small community, but they would have the entire Methodist Church behind them in their public outcry. St. Teresa's is a small hospital, as the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, said; and no Roman Catholic must take offence if I remind your Lordships that they have at this moment the whole apparatus and instrumentality of the Roman Catholic Church, highly organised, to do this very thing. All honour to them, if they believe in it! But let us not make the mistake
790
of thinking that this is a spontaneous outcry on the part of the local community. It has its repercussions, and I am sure it has its relationship to the most highly organised and most integrated Christian community I have ever known.
I am sure that this question raises a matter of principle, or, rather, two matters of principle; and I would briefly advert to them. I am sure that a very great deal of voluntary effort in this field should be working towards its own redundancy. This would certainly not be true in any community which did not seek a Welfare State. But I am sure that in a Welfare State there are opportunities for the whole community to take responsibilities which in other ages have been the accepted vocational responsibilities of only a few. And I see nothing wrong in recognising the inevitable process whereby such (if I may say so) ordinary, almost everyday, occurrences as belong to the business of a maternity hospital can and should be taken over, not entirely but in large measure, by local authorities who can provide certain amenities.
This is a matter upon which I think a little more accuracy is required, because it is true that in this particular instance there are to be provided an additional ten maternity beds over the allotment in St. Teresa's, as well as the availability of the full resources of a general hospital, X-rays and laboratory facilities, while a "flying squad" service to the community is also being planned. It would be, I think, gratuitous to assume that, with all the love and care, there is not a considerable argument to be made that in maternity care the enlightened community can probably be better than even a vocationally inspired religious community.
Having said that, I would immediately pass to the other thing which I think is a companion truth. I firmly believe that there are certain services which need to be rendered by devotionally-minded people who have two qualities which are probably not to be found in the public sector. One is a particular sense of devotion; and no one would want to say that this is not displayed in an exemplary manner by the Roman Catholic sisters. The second, and equally important, is a reference back to some kind of reservoir of fellowship in many cases, and I am thinking particularly of the hostel in which I have the care of girls who are pregnant

791
and unmarried, of unmarried mothers and their babies, and those who are ill and old and are very lonely. I think here there will be a continuing—indeed a permanent—need for the sort of tasks which have been so splendidly undertaken by St. Teresa's and like hospitals in the past.
I earnestly invite the responsible people in St. Teresa's to do again what they have done already, which is to follow out the advice of John Wesley to his helpers. He said: "Go to those who need you, and especially to those who need you most". At the time when this contractual arrangement was entered into the greatest need was for some hospital beds for maternity cases. To-day I am convinced that this need is secondary to a need of an entirely different kind of particularised and devotional work. It ought to be put on the record, although I think in fact it was referred to by the noble Baroness who has just spoken, that far from the Regional Hospital Board's saying, "The only thing you can now do is to go back to geriatric work", what the Board has proposed is that this hospital should turn over to the kind of chronic sick nursing among young people which I believe is one of the most difficult and complex and heart-rending opportunities which we have for public service, and for which I share with my Roman Catholic friends a sense of great conviction and devotion.
Therefore, far from hoping that out of this debate it will be assumed that the public sector has no further need for St. Teresa's, I earnestly invite your Lordships to consider whether or not the right course is for St. Teresa's to seek to do a job which, on the evidence, seems to me to be approaching redundancy in this particular area. It may be of interest to point out that in the Inner London area there are at the moment 719 beds available and only 556 of them are occupied. It should be considered whether St. Teresa's should not turn from this work which is now becoming, not unnecessary, but equally well done by the public authorities, and concentrate once again on those pioneering efforts, as it has done in the past and by which it has known its greatest glory and has fulfilled its deepest mission. I hope this will be done in the future.
7.13 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, until the last speech I had not regarded this as being in any sense a
792
denominational issue. I am quite unaware of this supposed effort by my Church to make trouble over this incident. I should have thought that if that had been the case someone, in the expectation of this debate, would have sent me some documentation on the subject. I have received no documentation at all. No-one in authority in my Church has suggested that I should take any interest in the question. I put down my name to speak only this morning, after a visit I paid to Wimbledon on Saturday and Sunday, and I am speaking not as a Roman Catholic but as a man who has a great love for, and some understanding of, the Borough of Wimbledon. Before the war Lady Iddesleigh's parents had a cottage at Wimbledon and I spent many happy weeks there as an engaged man and a young married man, and I got to know it very well. My battalion was at Wimbledon in 1940 and I spent many, not quite so happy, hours in Wimbledon in that year. Now my younger son lives at Wimbledon.
I do not believe that the Regional Hospital Board would have come to this decision if they had understood the character of Wimbledon. It is a very closely knit community. A Wimbledon housewife said to me yesterday, "Living here is not like living in a suburb; it is like living in a county town. We are proud of our community; we are proud of our Wimbledon institutions. We fill our theatre very well and we are proud of our maternity hospital, where our babies are born in our Borough". This closely knit feeling which is notably strong in Wimbledon is the cause of this agitation, and I repudiate the suggestion that it is an agitation provoked by Roman Catholics. It is a genuine, common feeling.
The arguments in favour of retaining the services of the community, and retaining them in maternity work, have already been given by other speakers. I will add only this: if we deprive this community of the maternity work we shall be wasting about ten maternity trainings. The members of this community are pioneers. Fifty years ago it was not considered suitable for nuns to do maternity work at all. They avoided it then; but progress goes on in religious Orders as in other places, and when there was a need for more midwifery, in this country the Sisters

793
undertook maternity training. Whatever other work they do in geriatrics and the work of which the noble Lord, Lord Soper, has spoken, that training of those nuns will be completely wasted. That is an appallingly uneconomic thing to do and I blame the Regional Hospital Board that when they came to level up the maternity services available they did not reckon on the possibility of keeping this excellent hospital going by continuing the contract. This would have suited Wimbledon, it would have suited a great many mothers who are fond of the place, and it would have avoided a great expenditure of public money on other places. I follow the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, in begging Her Majesty's Government to think again about this matter.
7.19 p.m.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, it is with great diffidence that I rise to say a few words to-night on my noble friend's Question. In fact I feel rather like Daniel in the lions' den, and I am afraid my noble friends, the lions, will not be quite so kind to me as those lions were to Daniel. There can be no doubt, my Lords, that if one's heart were to rule one's head we should all be backing St. Teresa's here to-night. Wonderful work is being done by the nuns there. I know only too well, my daughter being in St. Mary's Convent at Roehampton what wonderful work they do for the mentally handicapped, and how grateful I am to them. Unfortunately, those of us who have a major or minor responsibility in the Health Service have to ensure that the best use is made of the all too little money available for the care of the public. I feel I should state that my hospital group is in the South West Metropolitan Regional Board, and hence under the chairmanship of the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, but that in no way has influenced my words to-night.
After very careful thought I have come to the following conclusion. I have for many years been connected with charity organisations, and I am convinced that the main function of a charity organisation should be to pioneer new projects and to fill in the gaps in services not covered by the health scheme. We shall be hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, factors which have influenced the Board in their decision, but I understand
794
that in general the maternity services in the area are now fully covered, with all the up-to-date techniques which medical science has devised. I also understand that there is urgent need for the care of old people and the chronic sick which the Board have been unable to cover fully. I would therefore say humbly to St. Teresa's, "Well done thou good and faithful servant. Turn now to new horizons where your loving kindness is so badly required".
7.22 p.m.
BARONESS HYLTON-FOSTER: My Lords, like the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, I must confess that I also have not visited this hospital, but I have been stung into speaking this evening because I am a great admirer of voluntary effort, and I feel that until this matter was brought into the open, and in particular this evening, no real appreciation or thanks has been shown to St. Teresa's for the splendid work they have done and are doing. I should like to make clear that this dispute is entirely with the Regional Board and not with Westminster Hospital; the name of Westminster Hospital has been mentioned because it is the hospital which is taking over Queen Mary's when the new general district hospital is built. All of us in the Palace of Westminster know that if you are taken ill it is to Westminster Hospital that you are taken, and many of us have reason to be grateful to that hospital for the excellent treatment that all their patients receive. I should like no confusion about that.
When St. Teresa's was taken over by the National Health Service in 1948, as we have been reminded it was caring for cancer patients. At the request of the Ministry it then converted itself, at its own expense, into a maternity unit, having at that time, I think it was, 22 beds, and during the four conversions those beds have now risen to 70. All that has been at the expense of the hospital. The National Hospital Plan, which was presented to Parliament in another place, I think in 1962, while extensions to St. Teresa's were still going on, included Queen Mary's as a district general hospital. The then Minister asked the Board of Governors of Westminster Hospital to plan a maternity unit. So the Regional Board must have known about this. Surely a member of the Board could have gone personally to St. Teresa's

795
some time between 1962 and the present day to explain the position to them, and not just convey notes, or whatever method was used. Even in 1966 St. Teresa's were, vaguely, at any rate, under the impression that they were still going to be used, until they were suddenly told their contractual arrangement would stop in 1967. I agree with the noble Lord opposite that the job of the voluntary organisation is to pioneer objects and hand them over, but you cannot suddenly hand over wards that have been converted; you need a little time and also money to do that.
Whatever the reasons why the Regional Hospital Board showed no personal interest in this hospital at all, I put it to your Lordships that there were the most appallingly bad public relations between the Regional Board and the hospital, and also with the local people. It has been pointed out that Wimbledon is a little community on its own. Surely somebody on the Regional Board could have taken the trouble to go and see for themselves what really was happening in this hospital, and if this decision had to be taken, give them some helpful advice as to how their very splendid wards could be used.
Perhaps I might add a personal note here. I am myself a nurse. I have nursed both in maternity units and in geriatric wards, and I know that very different conditions are needed in both. In St. Teresa's you have a trained staff for a specific purpose, whereas for geriatric wards you need a rather different staff, and the talents of these ladies would really be rather wasted. I must emphasise again that the exceptional service that this hospital gives is not only in nursing but also in human relations. Although one noble Lord rather suggested that human relations do not matter very much, I think they matter enormously. Also, of course, there is this exceptional question of cost per bed. The very low cost, nobody will deny, is because very much of the service is given free. Free service is a very rare thing in these days, and I personally think it should be praised and taken into account, and not just fobbed off by saying, "You have done a splendid job; now turn your splendid maternity unit into a geriatric ward". And again the hospital pays; there is no suggestion that anybody else pays.
796
As there is a difference of opinion as to the number of maternity beds needed in the district, and bearing in mind the extra cost to the State of the new beds—quite apart from the cost in money and time to the relatives of patients who will then have to travel to other hospitals, to Kingston and Richmond, to visit their friends—would it not be wiser to keep all the available beds until the effect of the new Queen Mary's unit is seen? I should like the Minister to tell me whether it is the policy of the Regional Boards to be regionally bound, or whether there can be interchange if there is a shortage of beds in a particular region.
Finally, I was talking to a local resident of Wimbledon on the telephone—I discovered he was a local resident by chance—and I asked him whether he had any comments to make on this question of St. Teresa's. His only comment was, "It is a crying shame". I join with the noble Earl in hoping that Her Majesty's Government will persuade the Regional Board to think again.
7.30 p.m.
BARONESS STRANGE OF KNOKIN: My Lords, I am very pleased indeed to take part to-day in this debate on a subject that is close to my heart—I refer to the maternity services, and in particular to St. Teresa's Hospital in Wimbledon. I am most grateful, too, to the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for this chance to be able to give him my unqualified support. I have lived most of my life in the country, and there I have learned what their hospitals mean to mothers when they have had their babies and need so much help, comfort and understanding. This is perhaps more evident in the country than in the towns, because, as well as other things, the mother often has a long journey to undertake.
St. Teresa's has been equipped especially as a maternity hospital. It is only a short time ago, in fact only last year, that the last improvement was made. The nuns there are dedicated people, catering principally and particularly for the poor and the unmarried mother. As there is not so much pressure on their beds as there is in other kinds of hospitals, the patients are allowed to stay there longer than they can in other and bigger hospitals. This is a good thing, because, when the mother and baby go

797
home (and this is especially true of National Health patients), the mother starts to work. Often it is heavy work, and so she does not get the rest and the quiet that are necessary to her. Also she is on her own. She may have other children to look after, as well as the small baby. For that reason she does not get back her strength so soon as she might. Surely this is an argument for the small hospital like St. Teresa's.
Though I think that a geriatric hospital is a good idea, the more so because I have a feeling that I may need to get a bed there myself soon, I consider that the young should not be deprived of a service which has been especially equipped for them. A maternity hospital is a thing apart. In it, it has some of the greatest joys in the world, and also the most demanding responsibilities. St. Teresa's is a teaching hospital, of which there are all too few in Great Britain. The skill and the high standard of devotion of these nuns has made them respected and loved by thousands of mothers who have had their babies there. I beg that Her Majesty's Government shall ask the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board to reconsider their decision to withdraw the grant from this splendid hospital. If they do so, they will earn the grateful thanks of many thousands of people.
7.34 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, replies, and although I had not intended to join in this debate, may I just say that no doubt he has heard from more than one speaker that about 19,000 cases have been dealt with in this hospital without the loss of a single mother. I wonder whether he could quote one other National Health hospital which has a similar record? If he cannot, is it not a strong indication that the Minister of Health is throwing away this remarkable talent in favour of a hospital which bows the knee, not to the true God, but to the more fashionable god to-day—at any rate among those in the Government—of bureaucracy?
7.35 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we have had a useful, a reasoned and an informed debate. I am only sorry that my noble friend Lord Addison has not
798
himself been able to take part in the discussion, especially as he came under what I thought was a somewhat unfortunate personal attack. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, made a persuasive speech. He spoke with great feeling, and he made a contribution to a campaign which must rank as one of the most remarkable of recent years. Undoubtedly—and, like others who have spoken, I live in that part of London and therefore I know—St. Teresa's campaign has attracted great attention and support, especially in South-West London. However, that is not to say that its case is incontrovertible, or that there is not another side to it.
It is my experience (hat it is seldom that human beings can be persuaded to protest so strongly and persistently unless there is some good basic reason. The reason in this case, as so many noble Lords have already said, is the deep and understandable gratitude and affection for a hospital in which so many lives have been brought happily and safely into this world. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, emphasised this, and nobody has challenged it. The Minister certainly has not challenged it; the Regional Board have not challenged it, and I personally would never challenge it, because my wife and I have a special reason to be grateful to that hospital, as my son was born there. If I may be allowed to make this one personal reference, it so happened that at the time she was confined there I was dismissed from my post as a Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Labour Government of that time.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Give the reason.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, if I may say so to my noble friend, it was for supporting the Ireland Bill at that time. The nursing sisters there, with great care and sympathy, for which we shall always be grateful, because they thought, mistakenly, that I had lost my livelihood, went to immense trouble to see that the newspapers were kept from my wife. But though I understand the reason underlying this campaign, there are other factors which, in my view, justify the policy which I propose to explain.
I thought that the noble Earl made overmuch of the point that my noble

799
friend Lord Addison had not personally visited the hospital. I think it unfortunate that this observation was made, or that so much was made of it. Anyone who knows my noble friend—and here we all do—knows the voluntary and unpaid time which he devotes to his duties as chairman of the Regional Board, and would really hesitate before speaking as did the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, in that way. In any case, my noble friend would not have learned a single new fact about this situation. The facts were all known, and my noble friend would be the last to challenge the assertion that has been made over and over again, that St. Teresa's is a fine hospital.
What we are really concerned with here is not so much the past, but how for the future we can ensure for South-West London the best possible maternity service with the large, but strictly limited, share of national resources which are at the disposal of the Regional Board. Let me deal with the charge made by some of the politicians in the area, and implied by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers this afternoon, and certainly made by one other noble Lord, that the developments affecting St. Teresa's are being pursued for ideological or political doctrinaire reasons. This charge is false and is known by those who make it to be false.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I specifically said that there was no Party issue whatever here, and such remarks as he has made certainly do not refer to me.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Earl is quite right. What I said was that it was implied in what the noble Earl said, but it has been said in terms by others in this controversy.
EARL FERRERS: It was not implied by me.
LORD BESWICK: The noble Earl went to great lengths in saying what was being done, in referring to the bureaucracy implicit in the way in which the Minister was acting. He implied that it was a decision of the present Government, and by people of a different political Party from his own.
EARL FERRERS: I must interrupt the noble Lord. This is absolutely a misrepresentation of what I said. I said
800
that this decision had been taken and that in my judgment it was a wrong one; but I said specifically that there was no Party issue in this whatsoever.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am very glad the noble Earl now makes it absolutely clear, but the fact still remains that it has been said in the course of this controversy—the noble Earl will agree with this—that the decision has been taken for ideological and doctrinaire reasons. I am quoting here from speeches that have been made.
EARL FERRERS: But not by me.
LORD BESWICK: But not by the noble Earl.
EARL FERRERS: That is different from what the noble Lord said a few minutes ago.
LORD BESWICK: We will read tomorrow what I said and what the noble Lord said. The fact I want to stress is that the initial decision to enter into a contractual arrangement for the use of beds at St. Teresa's—this was a temporary arrangement—was made during the time of, and by, a Labour Government. The policy which has led inevitably to the ending of this contract was decided by a Conservative Government. Both decisions were justified on medical and administrative grounds. In neither case was there a hint of doctrinaire thinking.
The principle governing the policy, decided at the time of the Conservative Administration, meant that the Hospital Service should be based on a network of district general hospitals, of which a maternity unit would normally be part. The advantage of this policy is that the full supporting services to be found in a district general hospital will be available to all maternity patients. In South West London, Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton, which, as my noble friend Lord Silkin has explained, is part of the Westminster Teaching Hospital Group, will be the district general hospital to serve the surrounding community. A splendid modern maternity unit is under construction there and is expected to be admitting patients from January next year. My noble friend Lord Silkin went into some detail about this new hospital, and I do not propose to add more on that subject.

801
The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, queried a statement made by my noble friend Lord Silkin, that St. Teresa's had known of this development of Queen Mary's as far back as 1965. In fact I have seen correspondence referring to this development as far back as October, 1963, and it is surely reasonable to assume that this development was, or should have been, taken into account in the forward planning of St. Teresa's.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, will the noble Lord excuse me? I asked the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for evidence that the decision had been notified to the hospital five years ago. In his answer he shrunk the period to about 1964.
LORD BESWICK: The facts, as I understand them, are these: that there must have been a discussion about the new development in 1963, because I have seen correspondence in which this new hospital accommodation at Queen Mary's, Roehampton, is mentioned. A further warning was given verbally, I understand, in 1964 that the new accommodation coming forward would make it impossible for the contractual arrangements with St. Teresa's to be continued.
I would emphasise, in view of the point made about the position of my noble friend Lord Addison, that these early warnings were given at the time of my noble friend's predecessor. The original decision, or, rather, the planning which made the decision inevitable, was taken by the Board in 1964, before he assumed his present responsibilities as Chairman. Again, if the noble Lord wishes to make a personal point of this and press for the resignation of my noble friend Lord Addison, I can assure him that such is the feeling of the Board itself that if the question of his resignation arose the whole Board would automatically, I am certain, resign with him, because the decision was a decision of the Board as a whole.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to intervene? What I was arguing was not a personal criticism of the noble Lord, Lord Addison, in any way. What I pointed out at some length was that, because of the structure of the Hospital Service, there is no way for users to make their views known and no possibility of an
802
appeal. May I put it in the form of a question to the noble Lord? Assuming that there was a proven case of maladministration in the Hospital Service, what, in his view, would be the correct remedy?
LORD BESWICK: I know that the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, did raise the broader issue, and I hope that he will excuse my not going into that matter this evening. There is not time, and I do not think that it would help this particular case. I have some sympathy with what he said. I personally think that there is a case for a more democratic structure of the Regional Boards but it seems to me that this has no bearing on the situation here.
I was taking up the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, who did call for the resignation of my noble friend Lord Addison.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the noble Lord must get his facts right. I did not call for the resignation of the noble Viscount, Lord Addison. I said that he had never visited the hospital. I never called for his resignation.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I speak in the hearing of the House, and I am sure that when the noble Earl reads Hansard to-morrow he will find that he said something very different from what he now thinks.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, perhaps I can help the noble Lord. It was I, not my noble friend Lord Ferrers, who called for the resignation of the noble Viscount, Lord Addison.
LORD BESWICK: Then I apologise to both noble Lords. That is quite right. I am very sorry, but certainly this question of resignation arose, and I thought that it was raised by the noble Earl.
May I now deal with one or two of the detailed points raised? The question of comparative costs was mentioned. Part of the campaign's argument is that it will be more expensive for the Regional Board to provide at the new hospital the service hitherto available at St. Teresa's. The actual figures have been published, and I do not propose to go into them in detail. Briefly, they seem to show that the cost per day at St. Teresa's is somewhat lower, but since the Regional Board paid St. Teresa's on the basis of so much per

803
patient per day, and as patients there tended to be retained for slightly longer that the regional or national average, the cost per patient to the Board is somewhat higher. But I do not think that the difference between the two would lead to a decision one way or the other.
There are two other relevant matters in this question of costings. First, the St. Teresa's figures have recently increased significantly, and in the last year or so they have spent this additional sum of money on the equipment of the hospital, and I should be surprised if the figures do not show a further increase in the future. The second, and more important, point is that the Health Service figures, which are slightly higher on a per-day basis, include an element for the specialist facilities not provided by the private hospital; for example, the maternity flying squads for emergency calls. They are available for all the people in the area and they have to be paid for, and the costs of those services are caught up in the average costs on the National Health Service hospital.
I am sorry that the question of comparative safety has been brought into the argument again. I agree that St. Teresa's has a very fine safety record; but so have other hospitals. If this part of the argument is pursued, as the noble Lord, Lord Somers, appeared to wish to pursue it, then one must point out that the really difficult and complicated cases are more likely to be admitted into a maternity unit, at which all the specialist facilities of a general hospital are available.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: My Lords, would the Minister agree, while he is talking on that point, that the vast majority of maternity cases are perfectly straightforward, natural deliveries? So is it not essential that we should not send to the really expensively produced units those cases which can be perfectly well delivered in such a hospital as St. Teresa's?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I was dealing with the question of the comparative safety record, and all I am saying is that if you get on to the figures on which some have tended to dwell—whether it is a matter of one death or two deaths or three deaths over a period of years—that can be accounted for by the fact that really difficult and complicated
804
cases would not go to the small private maternity hospital but to a unit which is attached to a general hospital, at which the specialist facilities are available. That is the only point I was trying to make here.
One other point has been made very strongly, both in the campaign generally and again to-night, concerning the adequacy of maternity bed accommodation in this part of the metropolitan region. I must say that this was the one point on which I personally had doubts when I went into this problem. I am only too well aware of the housing development in the Wandsworth, Roehampton and Kingston Vale areas. I know, too, that there have been complaints about difficulty in gaining admission to a particular hospital at a particular time. But I think the position here must be understood. No one claims that at the present time there is, should be, or could be, 100 per cent. availability of beds for confinements. The Maternity Services Committee, under the chairmanship of the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, reported in 1959 that the objective should be to provide hospital accommodation for 70 per cent. of all confinements on the basis of a normal stay of 10 days. In the Boroughs of Merton and Wandsworth respectively, 85·9 per cent, and 85·4 per cent. of mothers were delivered in hospital last year. So, clearly, the Regional Board are more than fulfilling requirements in this respect.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: My Lords, may I ask just one question? Since 1959, when the Report of the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, was produced, a very much larger proportion of mothers—and also potential aunts and grandmothers—are going out to work. Therefore, there are fewer home helps, and real home helps, available, which means that there needs to be a higher proportion of maternity cases in hospital.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is quite right, and the 70 per cent. was a national average. There must be a variation as between one part of the country and another, and in London the factors to which she calls attention apply much more than in other parts of the country. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the average suggested in the Report was 70 per cent., and I am saying that in Merton and Wandsworth 85·9 per cent. and 85·4 per cent. of the mothers

805
were delivered of their babies in hospital last year. So I do not really think it can be claimed that there is a shortage of beds in this area.
A particular reference was made at one point to the fact that there had been a statement that at St. Helier it was not possible to take mothers at a given time. But my information is that the position in the St. Helier group was not that there was a shortage of beds, but that there was a shortage of staff, and not all the beds were being used. That position is being improved, and I think there will be less cause for concern in the future, so far as St. Helier is concerned. Nevertheless, even though there were difficulties at that hospital at one time, overall in the South West Region there is no question about the adequacy of beds.
I have brought out the fact that some 20,000 additional people have moved into the area in recent years, and that this must mean a substantial additional requirement. But, again, if one goes into this without emotion and with a slide rule, and if one assumes a birth rate of 16·6 per 1.000, the extra requirement there indicated is 11·6 beds. As has been said, there will be this extra number at Queen Mary's—50 instead of the 40 at St. Teresa's; there will be 10 more at Queen Charlotte's and another 12 at Kingston Hospital later this year. To demand that the Regional Hospital Board, after making provision in its budget—a limited budget—for these extra beds, should, in addition, continue to contract for the use of beds elsewhere is simply to ask them to spend money unnecessarily, which they urgently need for other hospital services.
I have tried to explain the policy first declared by a Conservative Minister of Health (I accept what the noble Lord said, but there has been this feeling in the rest of the campaign, and I think it is fair that I should make the point), which provides for maternity services as part of a district general hospital. I have sought to show that the South West Regional Board are carefully and efficiently applying that policy. Nevertheless, I know that no-one will derive any sense of satisfaction if a side result of the application of this policy is the closure, or the curtailment, of the devoted service which the staff of St. Teresa's render to the local community. It ought not to mean that.
806
Previously, it is true, the hospital cared for the chronic sick. They have since accepted, and presumably will still accept, private fee-paying maternity patients. So the question of closing down the hospital does not, and should not, arise from the decision about which we are talking.
My noble friend Lord Addison, the Chairman of the South West Regional Board—and a more fair-minded and generous-hearted person cannot be found—is prepared to discuss with the hospital the use of some of St. Teresa's beds for other essential hospital services. I hope that it will be possible to listen to the appeal which was made by my noble friend Lord Soper. What he said was absolutely right: there are other needs, possibly greater needs, which have to be met in the area. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell—and, as always, he spoke movingly on a matter concerning hospitals—called attention to the fact that greater avenues of service were now opening; and this is, of course, so. I beg those who have played a part in this campaign to realise that there is still in that area urgent hospital service to be performed.
My Lords, harsh words have been used in this campaign—not in this House, but outside. There have been some who, in my view, have sought to exploit the deep-seated and understandable affection which many of the electorate in the constituencies around there have for St. Teresa's. But I am addressing my appeal this evening to those who actually serve in the hospital and who wish only to continue to serve the community. I put it to them that I believe it would be useful if they accepted the invitation of my noble friend and got round a table with him to see if some alternative use could be made, on a properly planned and longish-term basis, of the beds which will become available at St. Teresa's. That, I am sure, is the best way one can tackle what is, we all agree, a very difficult and moving problem.

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's Consent signified, and Bill reported with Amendments.

EAST KILBRIDE BURGH BILL
Reported, with an Amendment.
House adjourned at eight o'clock.