Sitting of 13 June 1967

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL (CANVEY ISLAND APPROACHES, ETC.) BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
NEWQUAY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
  SOMERSET COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
  Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Taxation of Royalties (Court Actions)
    Sir R. Russellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the total cost to date of the court actions taken by the Inland Revenue to establish a claim for taxation of royalties against Mr. Hammond Innes.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): The Crown's costs in the Chancery Division and the Court of Appeal totalled £1,220. Following the order for costs made in the Court of Appeal, the Crown will also have to defray Mr. Innes's costs in that Court and in the Chancery Division, but details have not yet been received from him.
    Sir R. Russell: Is not this a waste of taxpayers' money, since no precedent was likely to be created by the action? Has a decision been taken as to whether the case is to go to the House of Lords?
    Mr. Diamond: A very important principle was involved, otherwise the matter would not have been pursued as
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    far as it was. The decision has been taken not to take the matter to the House of Lords.

    Government Contracts (Racial Discrimination Clause)
    Mr. Winnickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what further progress has been made in inserting a clause into Government contracts that would forbid any form of discrimination on grounds of colour or race.
    Mr. Diamond: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Written Reply I gave on 5th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Whitaker).—[Vol. 747, c. 131–2.]
    Mr. Winnick: Is it not clear that neither the T.U.C. nor the C.B.I. will agree to such a clause? In those circumstances, may we be told whether the Government intend to pursue this matter?
    Mr. Diamond: My hon. Friend misunderstands the position. Industry is in full agreement with the principle that there should be no discrimination in employment, but is properly concerned to discover the best means of putting it into practice. It is not a question of ends; it is purely a question of means.

    Institute of Economic Affairs
    Mr. Peter M. Jacksonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give a direction to the Bank of England to stop subscribing to the Institute of Economic Affairs.
    Mr. Dickensasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give a direction to the Bank of England that they should cease to subscribe to the Institute of Economic Affairs.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan): No, Sir.
    Mr. Jackson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that much of the research of this organisation is of a highly tendentious nature and that it has published such titles as "Journeys to Coercion: From Tolpuddle to Rookes v. Barnard" and "The Inconsistencies of the Health Service"? Would not my right hon. Friend agree that much of this research is contrary to the economic principles for which we on this side of the House stand and that it is outrageous that a

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    public body should subscribe to such an organisation?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions cannot be speeches.
    Mr. Callaghan: According to its own formulation, the Institute is
    "a research and educational trust that specialises in the study of markets and pricing systems as technical devices for registering preferences and apportioning resources. Microeconomic analysis forms the kernel of economics … in the public and private sectors … Where the macro-economic method is used its results are verified … in the light of microeconomic analysis."
    That is what the Institute says it does. But the real question is whether this is a matter of national interest in which I should issue a direction, and, on the whole, I think that it is not.
    Colonel Lancaster: Does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer think that this and other relevant questions might well form part of an inquiry by the Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries into the functions of the Bank of England?
    Mr. Callaghan: I should have thought that that was a rather heavy conclusion to hang on a question of this sort.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his latest estimate of the effect of joining the European Economic Community on the British balance of payments position.
    Mr. Callaghan: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the debate on 8th May.—[Vol. 746, c. 1077–80.]
    Mr. Gardner: But has my right hon. Friend seen the reports in some responsible national newspapers that the figure could be as high as £800 million? If that is the case, what kind of growth rate does he think he should allow?
    Mr. Callaghan: On the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I am glad to say that I do not take responsibility for what appears in the newspapers. On the second part, the growth rate up to 1970, which is before any entry could have a major effect, is
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    estimated at 3 per cent., and I see no reason to depart from that.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the conclusion in the report of the London and Cambridge Survey last week that even if the cost were only £500 million a year it could not be carried at the expected growth rate by 1970?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. I did not see that, but as the expected growth rate up to 1970 would not affect that calculation it is not very relevant.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in view of Her Majesty's Government's proposal to join the European Common Market, what proposals he has for encouraging the distribution, rather than the retention, of profits by fiscal means.
    Mr. Callaghan: I would refer the hon. Member to the Written Reply given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) on 6th June.—[Vol. 747, c. 161.]
    Mr. Ridley: In addition to that reply, would the Chancellor not accept that it would show a good earnest of our intentions if we were to move in the right direction in this matter? Secondly, as the Common Market has been more successful economically than this country, might we not with benefit copy some of the more successful policies in the fiscal sphere?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is a matter of argument and one which is not susceptible of a reply at the moment. I should not have thought that it was right at this stage to start revising our fiscal system until we see more clearly the course of the negotiations.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in view of Her Majesty's Government's policy of entering the European Economic Community, if he will amend the Selective Employment Tax so that it ceases to subsidise labour.
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. The Selective Employment Tax helps redress the balance of taxation between services and manufacturing. Premiums are payable to all manufacturing industry and do not favour particular forms of production.
    Mr. Ridley: But has the Chancellor asked the Commission in Brussels for its views about this subsidy on labour? Is he really so pessimistic about our chances of getting in that he is not prepared to alter the fiscal system to suit that obtaining on the Continent?
    Mr. Callaghan: As far as I can see, the selective employment premiums are not inconsistent with the Treaty of Rome and the aims of the Six. Therefore, there is no reason to make the adjustment which the hon. Gentleman suggests.
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now reconsider his policy on the introduction of a value-added tax, in view of the negotiations to enter the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Diamond: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 8th May.—[Vol. 746, c. 1089.]
    Mr. Campbell: As it is clear that the six countries of the E.E.C. are going to have a value-added tax, will the Chancellor now examine seriously the implications of such a tax, despite the inconveniences of a change?
    Mr. Diamond: The implications of all problems related to going into Europe are a matter for the consideration of the Government, and they are not behind the times in giving consideration to them, but I think the hon. Gentleman would be well served if he would read the relevant passage of my right hon. Friend's statement, which deals with this point precisely.
    Mr. Barnett: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Richardson Committee's Report found, for example, that the value-added tax did not stimulate exports for growth, and also that the Purchase Tax system was more economic and efficient than the value-added tax system? Does he not think that it might be better to try to persuade the Common Market countries to accept our simpler system of Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Diamond: There is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says, and if he reads what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said he will see that this point, too, was in mind.

    Balance of Payments
    Mr. Molloyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is satisfied with the progress made in dealing with the balance of payments problem; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am glad to say that figures published today show that the balance of payments was once more in surplus in the first quarter of 1967—the current account in particular showed a surplus of £41 million, seasonally adjusted. There is a good prospect of an overall surplus in 1967 and a larger surplus in 1968.
    Mr. Molloy: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on the efforts which he has made in making this remarkable achievement, will he bear in mind, when he starts his policies to lessen the loads on people, that the biggest contributions in achieving this remarkable recovery have been made by working people and that they should enjoy the benefits of any reliefs which he is prepared to give?
    Mr. Callaghan: I accept the second part of that statement, at least. There is no tribute due to me on the first part. It is the efforts of the British people which, broadly speaking, either create a surplus or result in a deficit in our balance of payments. As regards the future, I repeat that I think that a growth rate of 3 per cent. per annum will enable there to be a progressive improvement in our standard of life. If we keep the growth rate at 3 per cent., on the basis of the calculations which I have, it seems that we shall also have a balance of payments surplus.
    Mr. Bruce Gardyne: Would the Chancellor not agree that all the latest evidence, including the latest trade returns, suggests that we now have a combination of stagnating output, stagnating exports and sharply rising unemployment? Does that not suggest that there is a need for a fundamental change of policy?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. That is not true. Exports are nearly 7 per cent. above the corresponding months of last year. That is a very considerable improvement, and I see no reason to depart from that

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    estimate for the latter months of this year. As regards the other factors referred to by the hon. Gentleman, the Index of Industrial Output shows that there was an increase in the first quarter of a small amount, which looks as if it will grow during the latter part of this year. As for unemployment, the measures which the Government have taken and are taking, including the long-term structural changes in the regions, are designed to lower that rate.
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what special factors operate in the month of July to cause exceptional pressure on sterling in that particular month.
    Mr. Callaghan: Both the United Kingdom and the overseas sterling area move at about this time from a seasonally favourable to a seasonally unfavourable period of the year. This should not cause any undue difficulty if the underlying balance of payments position is sound.
    Mr. Hooley: But as we have had a sterling crisis in five successive years under three successive Governments, does not this seem to indicate some lack of forward planning in the Treasury?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is a large question on which I would be very interested to dilate at some length, but the basic position which I think it is important to understand this year is that during the last six months there has been an overall balance of payments surplus of £151 million, and therefore any adverse seasonal movement this year should not unduly affect the position of sterling.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the recurrence of this exceptional pressure during each of the last three years, and the prospect that it is going to recur again in July of this year or next year, suggests that one of the special factors must be Her Majesty's present Government?
    Mr. Callaghan: The hon. Gentleman keeps on making these points. I will say only that we have not had such a favourable balance of payments surplus as we have now for several years of the last Tory Administration.

    Educational Expenditure (Rate Burden)
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has for removing the financial responsibility for some sections of the educational service from the shoulders of the ratepayers; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Diamond: I have no further plans in relation to Local Government finance in advance of the report of the Royal Commission.
    Mr. Roberts: Does my right hon. Friend realise that we on this side expect a substantial increase in expenditure on education during the next few years due to a considerable advance in all spheres, and that it will get to something beyond any amount which can be raised by the rate revenue?
    Mr. Diamond: My hon. Friend is as fully aware as I am of the increase in the size of the child population and the need, therefore, for increased expenditure on education.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman not remember that at the last two General Elections there were guarantees that the large proportion of the salaries of teachers would be removed from the shoulders of the ratepayer on to the taxpayer? What is happening about those promises?
    Mr. Diamond: We have gone much further than that and done something much more radical than merely transferring that part of teachers' salaries which is not already carried on central Government finance.

    Industrial and Office Workers (Expenses Allowances)
    Mr. Gwilwyn Robertsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to bring the tax position of industrial and office workers into line with that of companies by making expenses incurred in the course of their employment such as lunches, travelling to and from work, and wear and tear on clothes all allowable against personal taxation.
    Mr. Diamond: I am afraid that I could not adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion

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    for extending the expenses that are deductible under the Schedule E expenses rules.
    Mr. Roberts: Does my right hon. Friend not agree, however, that the present tax position gives an enormous and unfair advantage to the man in business compared with the salary and wage earner? Does he not feel that these sorts of allowances would contribute greatly to the mobility of labour?
    Mr. Diamond: Perhaps my hon. Friend is not aware of the fact that the sort of allowances to which he refers are already made. For example, there is a flat-rate reduction granted on overalls, which is an item of expenditure agreed with the trade unions themselves.
    Mr. Barnett: Would my right hon. Friend not consider increasing the concession for luncheon vouchers, for example, which have been at 3s. 6d. from the date on which they were started?
    Sir G. Nabarro: Certainly not.
    Mr. Diamond: I recognise the weight of my hon. Friend's point, but this matter has been debated, and he is aware of the reasons why it has remained at that figure.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that nowhere in this country is there a canteen which is self-supporting and not subsidised at the cost of the taxpayer?
    Mr. Diamond: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to canteens for directors, canteens for employees, or both.

    Customs Officers (Identification)
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will see that Customs officers wear numbers similar to those worn by police officers in order that they may be identified in the event of differences with passengers.
    Mr. Diamond: No, Sir. Customs officers, whether or not in the uniformed service, are already directed to give their name if asked for it by a member of the public making a complaint in connection with an official matter.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this, because I have examples, which I am prepared to give him if he wishes, of two occasions on which Customs officers declined to identify themselves to complaining members of the public.
    Mr. Diamond: If the hon. Gentleman will forward the details to my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary, we shall be only too glad to consider them.

    Nationalised Industries (Selective Employment Tax)
    Mr. Mawbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will seek to amend the Selective Employment Payments Act so that nationalised industries do not receive the refund in respect of those engaged in selling domestic appliances such as cookers and refrigerators.
    Mr. Diamond: No, Sir. Gas and electricity showrooms are an integral part of the Board's main activities. They accordingly receive a refund in respect of the staff employed.
    Mr. Mawby: Did not the right hon. Gentleman hear his right hon. Friend refer a little earlier to S.E.T. as seeking to redress a balance? Will the right hon. Gentleman at least try to redress this balance whereby on the one hand he taxes private traders and then involves them in a situation in which they are indulging in unfair competition?
    Mr. Diamond: There is no evidence whatsoever of unfair competition between the boards and private retailers of appliances. It is not surprising that there is none. The total amount involved is about 2d. in the £.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Midlands Electricity Board extensively retails television and radio sets and that none of its staff pays S.E.T. from so retailing, whereas private enterprise competitors are required to pay this tax and are thereby gravely disadvantaged?
    Mr. Diamond: I repeat categorically that they are not gravely disadvantaged. The staff in question deal with a whole host of problems, such as disconnection of supplies—[Laughter.]—the provision of

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    information about supplies and tariffs, the handling of customers' queries, the receipt of customers' payments, and so on, of which retailing is a very small part.

    International Loans (Repayment)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he is repaying before the due date international loans which cost only 4 per cent. with hot money on which Great Britain pays 6 per cent.; and how much hot money he estimates has flowed into London during 1967.
    Mr. Callaghan: These repayments are being made as a result of the improvement in our reserves, and the strengthening of both our capital and current accounts. Overseas balances have been rebuilt, but not to a level which is in any way exceptional by past standards.
    Sir C. Osborne: But why should the Chancellor before the time is due repay a debt which he borrowed at 4 per cent. with hot money on which he is paying 6 per cent.? Why waste 2 per cent. extra of taxpayers' money?
    Mr. Callaghan: The hon. Gentleman does not seem fully to understand that money will come here whether I repay the debt or not. We are saving the 2 per cent., or whatever is the appropriate rate of interest, by repaying it earlier.

    Tax Arrears (Bankers' Orders)
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make arrangements for taxpayers to discharge payments of arrears of tax due by bankers' order in future without necessarily requiring the direct credit procedure.
    Mr. Diamond: These arrangements already exist.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: In that case, why was it that very recently the Financial Secretary told me that this was administratively very difficult, though he was courteous enough to make special arrangements in the case to which I referred?
    Mr. Diamond: My hon. and learned Friend told the hon. Gentleman that because it was an accurate statement of the case. These arrangements are diffi-
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    cult to make. They involve additional costs, but nevertheless arrangements are made to meet individual cases.

    King Faisal (Visit)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the cost to public funds of the recent visit of King Faisal.
    Mr. Diamond: The information is not yet known, but I would provisionally estimate a figure around £13,000.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend say whether we got value for money?
    Mr. Diamond: The answer is "Yes".
    Sir A. V. Harvey: When the information is published, will the right hon. Gentleman publish also the cost of the visit of Mr. Kosygin, which we were promised would lead to a treaty with Soviet Russia which we still have not got?
    Mr. Diamond: I shall look into the question of the publication of additional information.
    Mr. Mikardo: Did my right hon. Friend see the interview which King Faisal gave on television during his visit? Does my right hon. Friend think that what the King said was consistent with the behaviour of a guest on a State visit and whether it formed any part of the value for money which we got out of it?
    Mr. Diamond: I regret that at this time of the year I am too much occupied to spend enough time watching television.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether King Faisal was a guest of this country on a State visit, and whether it does not seem highly discourteous to ask for the publication of what it cost to entertain him?
    Mr. Diamond: King Faisal was, of course, on a State visit, but these are public funds, and I am the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, responsible to Parliament for the payment of public moneys.

    Australia (Sterling Reserves)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he had with the Government of Australia

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    before they reduced the proportion of Australia's international reserves held in sterling from 80 per cent. to 63 per cent. in the period between December 1964 and March 1967; why this reduction has taken place; and what estimate he has made as to the extent to which the trend will continue in 1967.
    Mr. Callaghan: The composition of Australia's international reserves is a matter for the Australian authorities; but naturally close contact is maintained with them about these matters.
    Sir C. Osborne: When the Australian Government reduced their large holding of sterling in this country to such an extent, did they consult the Chancellor? If so, did they give him a reason why they were withdrawing their currency?
    Mr. Callaghan: I think we can assume that these changes are not made without serious discussion and consultation. In view of Australia's growing trade with Asia and the United States, there is certainly a case for some redistribution in her reserves.

    Gross National Product
    Mr. Biffenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what amount he estimates the total gross domestic product in 1967 will exceed the corresponding figure at constant prices for 1966.
    Mr. Callaghan: By about 1½ per cent.
    Mr. Biffen: Are we to understand from that Answer that the Chancellor is disagreeing quite categorically with the comment of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), who concurred with my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) that the rise will not be very much more than ½ per cent.?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is a little too complicated, and I do not know the context in which the statements were made.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Will the Chancellor say whether that was his Budget estimate or a revised estimate since then, taking into account the inflationary measures announced and expected to be announced, according to Press hand-outs?
    Mr. Callaghan: This was the Budget estimate. I hope the hon. Lady will
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    soon grasp the point that it is possible to make an assessment of growth in February based on measures not then announced and not likely to be announced for some months later.
    Mr. Ian Lloyd: Since the forecast that the Chancellor has made is well within the statistical limits of error of any gross national product series, what significance can the figure of 1½ per cent. possibly have?
    Mr. Callaghan: A figure of 1½ per cent. of the gross national product would be between £400 million and £500 million, and that would be a significant figure. If the hon. Member is asking me what degree of accuracy can be attached to this forecast I would refer him to my previous comments on this subject.

    Public Expenditure
    Mr. Biffenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what amount he intends to revise the projected expenditure of £13,295 million for 1969–70 in the public sector, excluding nationalised industries, at 1965 Survey prices, on account of the underfulfilment of the National Plan targets; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Diamond: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to what my right hon. Friend said in his Budget statement.—[Vol. 744, c. 990.]
    Mr. Biffen: The right hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend said that we would have to wait, and we are still waiting. While we are still waiting, will the Chief Secretary take this opportunity to confirm that if we are to have the expected recovery in private investment some room must be made for it by a moderation in the rate of expension of public expenditure?
    Mr. Diamond: My right hon. Friend said in his Budget statement that when private investment grew room must be made to accommodate it.

    Selective Employment Tax
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his policy regarding the continuance of Selective Employment Tax as a permanent feature of the tax system.
    Mr. Callaghan: The Selective Employment Tax is an important addition to the tax structure. It helps to redress the balance of taxation between goods and services and should have valuable long run effects on the performance of the economy.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is my right hon. Friend not concerned at the limited success achieved in the transfer of labour from service to manufacturing industry, and also at the resentment caused in the country because of increased prices due to the tax? Is not he going to amend the tax in some way in order to remove the anomalies?
    Mr. Callaghan: The first important effect is that the tax raises £200 million approximately that would have to have been raised in some other way. As for the shift of labour, I certainly never expected, nor did I indicate, that it would take place in a period of 12 months. This is a long-run change. It is bound to take some time to have its effect because the balance of taxation is adjusted. As for the anomalies, my right hon. Friend will have seen that a substantial change has been made in relation to the payment of tax by part-time workers, and this has now had a valuable effect and has lessened a great deal of the criticism.
    Mr. Costain: How many years does the Chancellor expect will go by before he realises what a stupid tax this is?
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not think that any tax which collects £200 million as cheaply as this can be described as stupid.
    Mr. Woodburn: Can my right hon. Friend ask his Treasury experts if they can devise a tax which does not take money from the general public? If this does not prove possible, will he investigate the offers of alternative forms of contribution which will eliminate the necessity for this tax?
    Mr. Callaghan: I am much obliged. If any Select Committee of the House went to work on this problem, I should be glad to lend my assistance.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: Is the Chancellor aware that it dangerously weakens confidence in Treasury statements when he gives such an obvious example of changing ground? This tax was supposed to
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    move people from the distributive trades to the manufacturing trades. It has not done so. Is it to be a permanent tax, or only temporary?
    Mr. Callaghan: This is a permanent tax. If the hon. Member would refer to the White Paper published on Budget day, 1966, he would see that the statement I have made today is in line with the statement made in that White Paper.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is it not a ludicrous situation when those supplying milk, bread and the basic necessities of life have to pay this tax while those who manufacture juke boxes, one-armed bandits and the like receive a rebate? Is this the sort of society we want to see.
    Mr. Callaghan: The selection of grotesque illustrations of that sort on the extremities of a tax can always be construed to make it look as though the general body is not working properly, but in fact, as is well known in the House, the tax on manufacturing goods from which we derive most of our exports has been relatively much heavier than the tax on services for many years.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Will the Chancellor accept that this tax is permanent only so long as we have a Socialist Administratration? Secondly, does he realise that this is the worst piece of folly that has come out of the Treasury, even in recent years, and that a Conservative Administration will abolish it?
    Mr. Callaghan: It was precisely because I recognised that it would need a Conservative victory to change the tax that I was so confident in saying that it was permanent.
    Mr. Bellenger: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is not some simpler way of collecting this tax on part-time workers? Why not reduce it to half-price straight away, instead of paying the full amount and at some later date this year claiming it back?
    Mr. Callaghan: Because part of the simplicity and cheapness of the Tax is that it is related to the National Insurance stamp. This is why it is the cheapest of all possible taxes to collect. Therefore it would be administratively more complicated and costly to do it the way my right hon. Friend suggests. I have no doubt that as the years progress and as

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    this Socialist Administration waxes in strength further adaptations will be made in it.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Has the Chancellor of the Exchequer any evidence of the effect of the tax on the cost of living?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, but I do not carry it in my head at the moment.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Biggs-Davison, to ask Question No. 30.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: On a point of order. As Question 45 is on all fours with this Question, may I ask a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: The Minister did not decide to answer them together.

    Rhodesia (Bank Notes)
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the basis for assessing the compensation of £250,000 paid by the Reserve Bank of Rhodesia in London to Giesecke and Devrient for banknotes printed for the Reserve Bank of Rhodesia in Salisbury and now deposited with a German bank.
    Mr. Callaghan: This figure was settled in negotiation between the Board of the Reserve Bank of Rhodesia and the German printing firm.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is it not the case that these bank notes amounted in value to £100,000 rather than £250,000? Why, then, did the Government agree to this exorbitant settlement? Will not the printers be free in any case to deliver these bank notes to Rhodesia after October 1969? Is not this a great nonsense and a waste of time and money?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir, I do not think that is so. The matter has been debated. The Board of the Reserve Bank entered into negotiations on the directions of the Secretary of State and a good settlement was reached.

    Added-value Tax
    Mr. Barnesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will publish a memorandum on the social and economic implications of the introduction of an added-value tax.
    Mr. Diamond: I will bear this suggestion in mind. As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, a Committee of the N.E.D.C. is at present considering the value-added tax.
    Mr. Barnes: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that if tax reform is to proceed smoothly it is important that it should be possible for objections to be raised and discussed in advance before a tax becomes a fact? If the Government decide to introduce an added-value tax, can they draw the legislation in this way?
    Mr. Diamond: I will bear what my hon. Friend says in mind. He realises that this is the procedure adopted on what has now come to be known as the Green Paper.

    Laundries (Selective Employment Tax)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why Selective Employment Tax is imposed in respect of workers employed in laundries.
    Mr. Diamond: Laundries are a service and the tax is payable by service industries in general.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is not that a somewhat theoretical answer? Is not work in laundries analogous to that of work in factories? Are not laundries short of labour, and are not they also hit both by the withdrawal of the investment allowance and the price limits imposed on them? Will not he consider this question a little more from the practical angle?
    Mr. Diamond: The right hon. Gentleman may know that I did receive a deputation. I have sympathy with the difficulties which this industry is facing, but I regard those difficulties as stemming mainly from the transfer to domestic laundering rather than from any other main cause.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Chief Secretary aware that in some of the underdeveloped areas, which the Government claim to be helping, service industries are the only form of major employment, and there is no alternative employment? Among those service industries laundries bulk quite largely. Will the right hon.

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    Gentleman look at this matter again, because it is not the case that they are losing business to domestic laundering but are being put out of business by this tax?
    Mr. Diamond: No, Sir. With respect, that is not an accurate analysis either of the situation for any given region or of the circumstances affecting this particular industry. In most regions there is a distribution, and I agree that it is different in some regions from others. This industry was fully investigated by the Prices and Incomes Board, and what I am saying is accurate.

    Land Valuation (Derby)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has now considered the information sent him by the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames relating to the practice adopted by the district valuer, Derby, in respect of transactions which it was desired to complete before April 1967; whether this practice has his approval; and what steps he proposes to take to compensate citizens whose property as the result of this practice was subject to payment of part of an impost not then in force and operation.
    Mr. Diamond: Yes, Sir. I am writing to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not agree that the district valuer, Derby, has acted in the way he is alleged to have acted, and the question of compensation does not arise.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is clear, on the evidence of a highly respectable firm of professional surveyors that I submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, that the effect of the district valuer's action was to impose the levy under the Land Commission at half-rate two months before it became legally in force, and is that in accordance with the instructions of the Inland Revenue?
    Mr. Diamond: No, Sir. The evidence does not indicate that. I want to make it absolutely clear. This is a very serious allegation and, therefore, I—as the right hon. Gentleman would no doubt have done in my position—have gone into it very carefully indeed. The surveyors acting for the right hon. Gentleman's client are under a complete misapprehen-
    294
    sion. No such thing as he has alleged has happened. No damage has been suffered.
    Mr. Rippon: Is the Chief Secretary aware that there is very strong feeling about this particular case, which, it is felt, is perhaps not an isolated one? Would he publish a full report of the circumstances?
    Mr. Diamond: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said, because this matter is extremely difficult to deal with simply by Question and Answer. I have gone into the case very carefully, and I shall be answering the right hon. Gentleman. With his permission—he is acting on behalf of his constituent—I am sure that it would be helpful if this matter could be published.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In order to facilitate the right hon. Gentleman's public discussion of the details of the matter, Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.
    Mr. Speaker: Adjournment notice must be given in the conventional way.

    New Taxes
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the total sum raised in new taxes since 15th October, 1964; and if he will state this as an approximate annual percentage of Government taxation.
    Mr. Callaghan: The broadening of the tax base through the Capital Gains Tax, the Selective Employment Tax, the general betting duty and the gaming duties has yielded net revenue of £281 million, up to the end of 1966–67, or 3 per cent. of total taxation in that year.
    Mr. Mills: But the right hon. Gentleman has substantially underestimated the increase in taxation of over £1,000 million by the Socialist Administration—an average of 23s. per week for every family in the land. Will he say whether it is his intention to reduce taxes over the next few years?
    Mr. Callaghan: I was answering the Question on the Order Paper, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a supplementary on a different question I would refer him to the large increase in wages that has taken place since October. 1964.

    £50 Travel Allowance
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement reviewing the results of the £50 travel allowance; and what proposals he has for increasing it.
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. Meaningful figures will not be available for some time after the main holiday season is over. In reply to the second part of his Question, I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) on 6th June.—[Vol. 747, c. 162.]
    Mr. Mills: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer confirm that the British travel allowance is one of the lowest in the Western world, and will he say whether it is his intention to increase this travel allowance during the year 1967–68?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. I have no statement to make today on 1967–68. I am satisfied that the travel allowance is certainly adequate for the holiday needs of most families in this country when they go abroad.

    Children (Tax Relief)
    Dr. David Owenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated cost of Income Tax and Surtax relief for children in the year 1967–68.
    Mr. Callaghan: About £630 million.
    Dr. Owen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply shows an increase of over £50 million, and that the previous year showed an increase of £80 million? Is not this a very strange inequality when one considers that family allowances have remained unchanged since 1956?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir. I do not think that tax allowances, which determine the residual sum that is left to a man after he has earned his income, can be compared with an allowance that is given by the State out of the general taxation.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Increased Cost
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be the increased annual cost of the 46,000
    296
    extra civil servants who will be employed in March, 1968, compared with December, 1964.
    Mr. Diamond: £55 million, calculated on the average salary for non-industrial civil servants.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this represents an increase of 11 per cent., which far exceeds the increase in the working sector of the economy? Can he say what his right hon. Friend's policy is with regard to the trends of these two percentages?
    Mr. Diamond: These two have very little relationship to one another. As the hon. Gentleman recognises, the percentage which he quotes is not an annual percentage. The simple reason for the increase is that we have to man the services which this House deems should be carried out.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to use his influence with his colleagues to reduce Government expenditure?
    Mr. Diamond: We take note of the hon. and learned Gentleman's views.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Departments investigated by the Treasury O. & M. Section very large savings have been produced? Will he, therefore, increase the staff of the Section so as to cut down everywhere else?
    Mr. Diamond: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. The answer to his Question about an increase in the staff of O. & M. is that it has taken place already.

    Administrative Class (Recruitment)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing, for each of the last 10 years, the number of Administrative Class Civil Servants recruited to the Treasury and Diplomatic Service, respectively, from Oxford and Cambridge, and from other universities.
    Mr. Diamond: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend now say whether the trend away

    297
    from the undue proportion of Oxford and Cambridge graduates and towards a better and fairer proportion of graduates from the civic universities is satisfactory to the Government, and in view of the fact that the performance both at home and abroad has not exactly glittered during the last ten years, may not part of the solution to the problem lie in the terms in which the Question is posed?
    Mr. Diamond: Yes, Sir, but for the Civil Service as a whole the number of successful candidates from universities other than Oxford and Cambridge is rising steadily and had reached 35 per cent. by 1966 compared with a much

    UNIVERSITIES OF SUCCESSFUL CANDIDATES WHO ENTERED THE ADMINISTRATIVE CLASS BY OPEN COMPETITION AND WERE ASSIGNED TO THE TREASURY 1957–1966

    Oxford and Cambridge

    Other Universities

    No University

    Year of taking up appointment

    Assistant Principal

    Principal

    Assistant Principal

    Principal

    Assistant Principal

    Principal

    1957

    …

    …

    2

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1958

    …

    …

    2

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1959

    …

    …

    2

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1960

    …

    …

    1

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1961

    …

    …

    4

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1962

    …

    …

    3

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1963

    …

    …

    5

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1964

    …

    …

    4

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1965

    …

    …

    3

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1966

    …

    …

    3

    4

    1

    1

    —

    —

    Totals

    …

    29

    6

    3

    1

    —

    1

    UNIVERSITIES SUCCESSFUL CANDIDATES WHO ENTERED THE ADMINISTRATIVE CLASS OF THE FOREIGN SERVICE (1957–1964) AND THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE (1965–1966) BY OPEN COMPETITION

    Oxford and Cambridge

    Other Universities

    No University

    Year of taking up appointment

    Grade 8

    Grades 7 and 5

    Grade 8

    Grades 7 and 5

    Grade 8

    Grades 7 and 5

    1957

    …

    …

    8

    2

    —

    1

    —

    —

    1958

    …

    …

    11

    2

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1959

    …

    …

    15

    4

    1

    1

    1

    —

    1960

    …

    …

    19(4)

    6

    4

    —

    —

    1

    1961

    …

    …

    25(7)

    2

    1(1)

    2

    —

    —

    1962

    …

    …

    25(5)

    4

    1

    1

    1

    —

    1963

    …

    …

    19(4)

    6(9)

    3

    —(2)

    —

    —(1)

    1964

    …

    …

    13(7)

    3(5)

    1

    1(3)

    —

    —

    1965

    …

    …

    20

    6

    6

    7

    —

    1

    1966

    …

    …

    18

    7

    3

    2

    —

    —

    Totals

    …

    173 (27)

    42 (14)

    20(1)

    15(5)

    2

    2(1)

    Note: Figures in brackets denote entrants to the Commonwealth Relations Office, before the creation of the Diplomatic Service on 1st January, 1965.

    Cost and Works Accountants
    Mr. Cantasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is being done to obtain qualified cost accountants for the Civil Service.
    Mr. Diamond: Staff in several Departments are studying for the qualifications
    smaller percentage earlier, as my hon. Friend will see from the figures.
    Mr. G. Campbell: Will the right hon. Gentleman include in the table the total number of applicants from both groups so that the House may have a comprehensive picture of the situation?
    Mr. Diamond: I cannot alter the table, which does not include the number of applicants, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend that we are most anxious that more applicants should come from universities other than Oxford and Cambridge. The difficulty in the main is the lack of applicants.
    Following is the table:
    of the Institute of Cost and Works Accountants and the Ministry of Technology are recruiting experienced cost and works accountants for work on the pricing of aerospace contracts.
    Mr. Cant: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a recent article The Times

    299
    suggested that the Civil Service is recruiting the wrong type of cost accountant?
    Mr. Diamond: Yes. My attention was drawn to that article. It is quite wrong. There are some jobs, of course, which can only be done by chartered accountants or by certified accountants. There are other jobs which are more appropriate for accountants who are more experienced in particular cost and works spheres. We are doing a great deal to assist with sandwich courses, by way of aid in support of those courses, to encourage people to train in this sphere of activity.

    NUCLEAR WEAPONS
    Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister if he will give an assurance that the House will be informed of a Government decision to authorise the manufacture of a new generation of nuclear weapons.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): If my hon. Friend is referring to a proposal to replace the Polaris missiles by Poseidon missiles, the answer is that Her Majesty's Government have no such intention.
    Mr. Winnick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer will be received with a great deal of satisfaction, certainly on this side of the House?
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Can the Prime Minister say how much of the £260 million a year we are now spending on military research is given to devising new generations of nuclear weapons?
    The Prime Minister: I have made it clear that we are not concerned at all with new generations of military weapons. It is not the practice to give the figures my right hon. Friend asked for, but I made clear in my Answer what the position is about future generations.
    Mr. Lubbock: What nuclear weapons of the present generation are still being manufactured by Her Majesty's Government?
    The Prime Minister: It is not usual to give answers on these questions. I was asked in this case about new generations.

    U.S.S.R. (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
    Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister when he proposes to visit Moscow.
    The Prime Minister: No date has yet been arranged, Sir.
    Mr. Marten: Are not the main points in the communiqué issued after Mr. Kosygin's visit moving rather slowly? Have there been any discussions with the Russians about the visit, because it is a very appropriate time at this very moment?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. There have been discussions. I had a discussion very recently with the Soviet Ambassador on this question. I think that the view of both Mr. Kosygin and myself is that the visit should be timed at whatever time seems most useful and fruitful for the things we shall want to be discussing. As the hon. Member will know, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was in Moscow two or three weeks ago.

    ADEN (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Prime Minister if he will define the duties in Aden of the Minister without Portfolio.
    The Prime Minister: As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House on 10th April, my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister without Portfolio went to Aden to provide political guidance on the spot and also to advise Her Majesty's Government on the problems of South Arabia as seen from Aden. He has paid two extended visits to South Arabia, and since his return on 30th May he has been engaged in discussions in London about the future of South Arabia.
    Mr. King: How precise is the division of duties? Is not any prolonged presence alongside the High Commissioner likely to create difficulties? Is not this a blurring of responsibilities?
    The Prime Minister: I agree a great deal with the principle laid down by the

    301
    hon. Gentleman, but this is not a prolonged visit. My noble Friend was there during the period when one High Commissioner was replaced by another. I agree in principle that even in the special conditions of Aden the idea of a Minister resident in that area, which has been right in past circumstances, would not be appropriate.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Has the Minister without Portfolio any duties in respect of Kamaran, Perim and the Kuria Muria Islands, which will presumably require special treatment?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend has been advising on all the problems of the area from his vantage point in Aden. I think that the House is due to have a debate on all the places named by the hon. Gentleman as part of the legislation which will be before the House, I think, next week.
    Mr. Heath: The Prime Minister has mentioned a debate. Is he aware that the House will be placed in a very difficult position if we can only debate the question of the resident Minister without Portfolio and all the other matters arising out of Aden on Second Reading of a Bill, without a prior statement? We have asked for this on the last two occasions when Business has been presented. I do not wish to press the right hon. Gentleman for an answer today, but I would be grateful if he would consider the matter afresh with the Leader of the House so that we would have the opportunity of a statement on Government policy, and then either the debate we have been promised or the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill. But we must have time to consider the policy first.
    The Prime Minister: So that the House should have a wider freedom than might be appropriate on a discussion of the Bill, perhaps there could be discussion through the usual channels as to whether we should have a debate on the broad issue and then, perhaps, come to the passage of the Bill at a later stage of the day. The question of a statement is entirely different. I will draw it to the attention of my right hon. Friend, though if we have a wider debate I see no reason why my right hon. Friend should not use the occasion of that debate to make a full statement on Government policy, as is usual.

    PRIME MINISTER OF GREECE
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Prime Minister what communications he has had with the new Prime Minister of Greece.
    The Prime Minister: I have had no communications with the Prime Minister of Greece, Sir, but Her Majesty's Government are of course in touch though Her Majesty's Ambassador.
    Mr. Gardner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that amongst the very many people arrested in Greece are a number of Members of Parliament? Is he further aware that a very great many Members of this House would be in great danger of being arrested if they resided in Greece? Will he assure the House that there will be no official dealings with the present régime until democracy is restored?
    The Prime Minister: We should have a direct responsibility for the freedom from arrest, whether in this country, in Greece or anywhere else, of hon. Members. With regard to the situation in Greece, as my right hon. Friend will know, Her Majesty's Ambassador in Athens, returning to Athens, after his discussions with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and myself, made clear to the Greek Government the strength of public opinion in this country on recent events in Greece and was instructed to say exactly what our views were on the return towards democratic government in Greece, which has been laid down by the authorities there.
    Mr. Whitaker: In view of the very great historic part this country played in the establishment of democracy in an independent Greece in the last century, will Her Majesty's Government continue forthrightly to condemn the present abrogation of democracy, in the same way that Denmark and Norway have done?
    The Prime Minister: Since the Government are as concerned as my hon. Friend is with getting the right results there, which is the evolution back towards democratic and Parliamentary institutions, as promised by the régime, I think that we shall make progress by continuing

    303
    to press them in this direction rather than by condemning them.
    Mr. John Fraser: Will my right hon. Friend discuss with our N.A.T.O. allies the specific obligations of Greece under the North Atlantic Treaty to preserve democracy, liberty and the rule of law? Will he further discuss with them the question whether Greece should remain a member of N.A.T.O. and receive military aid whilst she is in breach of these obligations?
    The Prime Minister: I think that it is a matter for each N.A.T.O. member to indicate to Greece, in whatever way seems appropriate to each member—and we have been indicating very strongly our views—what we feel is the duty of the Greek Government in the matter of a return to democracy.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will the Prime Minister make equally enthusiastic representations to secure the restoration of Parliamentary government in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that supplementary question arises out of this particular Question.

    CHRONIC SICK (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Prime Minister what further steps he proposes to take to co-ordinate the work of the seven Ministers at present responsible for the economic and social welfare of the chronic sick.
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friends work closely together in this field as in others and, as the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio exercises a general coordinating function. If, however, my hon. Friend knows of any specific instance where greater co-ordination would be of benefit, I should be grateful if he would let me have details.
    Mr. Ashley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have particular details of where there is a lack of liaison and I shall accept his offer and provide him with the details later on?
    The Prime Minister: I should be most grateful. I was not quite clear from
    304
    the Question whether my hon. Friend, in referring to the chronic sick, was referring to those described in a Question by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) some weeks ago or whether he was referring to the conditions of the disabled. He will be able to make this clear when he gives me the necessary information.
    Dr. Winstanley: Will the Prime Minister agree that, where so many are responsible, there is a tendency for none to accept responsibility and that the needs of the chronic sick would be better served if one Minister had a firm and undivided responsibility?
    The Prime Minister: No, this would not be possible, however attractive it might seem in theory, because obviously the Minister of Social Security must handle cash benefits questions; the Minister of Health must handle medical treatment and health and welfare services; and the Minister of Labour should deal with resettlement, rehabilitation, training and so on. To distinguish this particular group of citizens from the general responsibilities of the Departments would be very harmful to their treatment in all the ways in which they can receive help from the Government.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Mr. Websterasked the Prime Minister what Minister will be answerable in the House of Commons on negotiation for entry to the Common Market.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answers I gave on 6th June to supplementary questions by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.—[Vol. 747, c. 792–6.]
    Mr. Webster: Does the Prime Minister recollect that during the last negotiations we were given an up-to-date commentary on what was going on by the Minister concerned with the negotiations? What steps is the Prime Minister taking to ensure that we get as up-to-date and authoritative statements this time?
    The Prime Minister: As I have said on a previous occasion, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will be responsible

    305
    for giving the fullest and most up-to-date information available to the House.
    Mr. Molloy: Could my right hon. Friend say, and I hope agree, that the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs also has an important rôle to play and will be answerable in the House to Questions Members may wish to put?
    The Prime Minister: The question of which Minister answers a particular Question is surely governed by the framing of particular Questions. Certainly my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs, together with other Ministers—for example, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland—will have a very vital rôle to play in the negotiations.

    RHODESIA
    Mr. Sandysasked the Prime Minister whether he has received any information which indicates that Mr. Ian Smith would be prepared to resume talks with the British Government, with a view to making a renewed attempt to reach a negotiated settlement.
    The Prime Minister: The House will be aware of the reports which have recently appeared suggesting willingness on the part of Mr. Smith to resume talks. I should now tell the House that if in fact Mr. Smith, with the authority of his Rhodesia Front colleagues, is prepared to enter into meaningful discussions, by which I mean discussions leading to a solution which Parliament could accept, and has any specific suggestions to make which would lead in that direction, Her Majesty's Government would readily consider them. But we must be satisfied that any such suggestions result from a genuine willingness to seek such an acceptable solution and that those who make them do so with the ability to give effect to any agreed solution.
    To this end, my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary and I have asked the noble Lord, Lord Alport, to pay a visit to Salisbury in a few days' time—[Interruption.]—for an exchange of views with the Governor. While he is there, he will also be available to see representatives of all sections of Rhodesian
    306
    opinion and to receive any views or suggestions which anyone in Rhodesia may wish to put forward. There is, of course, no question of his negotiating on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. On his return he will report whether in his view there is any real indication of a situation arising in which meaningful attempts can be made to reach an acceptable settlement.
    Mr. Sandys: May I thank the Prime Minister for his reply? Without wishing to probe at this stage, since it would be rather unhelpful, into exactly what he means by "meaningful", may I quite simply ask him whether he is aware that there will be, I think, widespread relief that some new moves are now at last being made—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—on both sides to try to bring an end to this tragic dispute?
    The Prime Minister: I have repeatedly stated what our position is. After the "Tiger" episode, when, despite the fact that Mr. Smith said that he had authority to settle, he ran away from it and finally was overthrown by his colleagues, naturally the Government have to be most careful in this matter. It is well known that the extremist members of Mr. Smith's regime not only vetoed the settlement but are most allergic to any proposals for talks now. My right hon. Friend and I have therefore asked Lord Alport, who was a distinguished Minister in this House at the Commonwealth Office, and High Commisioner in Salisbury, who has a very great knowledge of these matters—I do not see why it caused so much laughter on the Front Bench opposite when I mentioned his name. However, I think that he does carry the confidence of the House and will be able to do a very satisfactory job in Salisbury in finding out what the position is.
    Mr. Faulds: Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that, whatever the outcome of these contacts, there will be no independence in Southern Rhodesia before majority rule?
    The Prime Minister: The position on no independence before majority rule, which has been proclaimed by the Government, by the Commonwealth and by the House, remains unchanged. Certainly Lord Alport has no authority to go back on that decision. I have said

    307
    in the House in answer to the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) that, if there were a substantial change in circumstances, we should be prepared to discuss the situation which arose with the rest of the Commonwealth, but there would have to be a substantial and guaranteed change in circumstances.
    Mr. Maudling: The Prime Minister is no doubt aware that that was an extremely important answer. Is he aware that the first part of his answer would make any meaningful discussions quite impossible? Will he therefore emphasise very much the second and far more hopeful part of his answer, although it contradicted the first part?
    The Prime Minister: It did not contradict the first part. There was nothing new in what I said, because I have said it in answer to the right hon. Gentleman before, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember. In fact, he expressed satisfaction, I think, at the time. What we have also to emphasise—this is a point we do not get from certain right hon. Gentlemen—is that this is an illegal regime in a treasonable situation, that they have since—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That used to be a subject of great concern in the House, whatever party was asked to deal with it. Since the talks on H.M.S. "Tiger", there have been two very serious steps away from the six principles. One is the Emergency Powers Act giving power to detain without trial and without a state of emergency. The other is the recent development in connection with the censorship laws and further evidence of interference with the judges. In view of this, we really would need to be satisfied that the illegal régime was being sufficiently changed, and was changing its ideas, if we were to regard the circumstances as having changed.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be resolute opposition from many Members on this side of the House to any weakening of the insistence that there can be no settlement short of "Nibmar" in Southern Rhodesia?
    The Prime Minister: Our position was stated in December. It was endorsed by the House. We have to find out now whether there is a willingness to return
    308
    to constitutional rule. They were always in a position to be recognised, under the existing Constitution or the amended Constitution, if they went back to constitutional rule. Sanctions would come to an end at that point. It is one of Lord Alport's jobs to see exactly what the temperature of the water is there and what authority those who are saying to their friends in this country that they want talks have to speak on behalf of colleagues who in the past have overruled them.
    Sir J. Rodgers: Will the Prime Minister confirm that he would confine himself in trying to seek agreement purely to the six principles and not to any other extraneous matters? Second, was my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition consulted before the appointment of Lord Alport?
    The Prime Minister: On the first point, the six principles have been laid down by, I think, all of us in the House, though I have expressed my anxiety about some of the new developments, for example, again, the new methods of segregation of population as between African and European population, which fly still further in the face of the fourth principle.
    On the second question, no, there was no consultation.
    Hon. Members: Why not?
    Mr. William Hamilton: Why was Lord Alport appointed by the Government to conduct these investigations? Is there any precedent for a Labour Government appointing a former Tory Minister to conduct investigations of this sort? Was any Labour Minister willing or able to go, and if he was, why was not he sent?
    The Prime Minister: There are abundant precedents both for appointments of ex-Tory Ministers by Labour Governments and for appointments of ex-Labour Ministers by Tory Governments, some in the recent memory of all of us in the House. The noble Lord was asked to go because, as I have said, he has unrivalled knowledge of the situation in Salisbury and of the personalities, and he was a distinguished High Commissioner there for several years. It would have been quite inappropriate for one of Her Majesty's present Ministers to go on this operation, for reasons which, I think,

    309
    the whole House will understand. I should have thought that Lord Alport's appointment would commend itself to the whole House.
    Mr. Grimond: So that the House may be clear as to the basis on which Lord Alport goes on this visit to Rhodesia, will the Prime Minister tell us whether it is the Government's position that they cannot agree in any circumstances to independence before majority rule unless the whole of the Commonwealth agrees to it first?
    The Prime Minister: I have made clear now three or four times that, if there were a substantial change in circumstances, a complete change in circumstances from those that ruled when the Commonwealth met last September, we should be prepared to discuss the matter with the Commonwealth. I did not say what would be the outcome of those discussions. I am not at this moment willing to give one out of the nearly thirty countries a veto. We shall certainly want to take the view of the Commonwealth as a whole on such a question, but the right hon. Gentleman will realise that we have a very long way to go before reaching that stage. The noble Lord, Lord Alport, has first to come back and satisfy us that there is a genuine desire for real negotiations, that there will be no going back on agreements reached if there were any form of negotiations, and that there will be no overruling by the extremist wing of the Rhodesia Front of any agreement come to.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We are already five minutes past the end of Question time.

D NOTICE SYSTEM (REPORT OF COMMITTEE)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement.
The Government have received the Report of the Committee of Privy Councillors who were appointed
"to examine the circumstances surrounding the publication of an article in the Daily Express of February 21, entitled 'Cable Vetting Sensation' in relation to the D Notice system;
310
and to consider what improvements, if any, are required in that system in order to maintain it as a voluntary system based on mutual trust and confidence between the Government and the Press in the interests alike of the freedom of the Press and of the security of the State."
The Government wish to take this opportunity to thank Lord Radcliffe and his two colleagues for the great care and thoroughness with which they have examined a very complex subject.
The Report will be published in full, and it will be available to hon. Members in the Vote Office at 4 p.m. today.
I should also tell the House that the Report has an Annex dealing with certain very secret aspects of the Committee's inquiry, and that, in accordance with the Committee's recommendations, this will not be published. Naturally, however, in accordance with our normal custom in these matters, the Annex has been made available, together with the Report itself, to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.
Moreover, in view of the importance and complexity of the issues involved, the Government have thought it right, with the concurrence of Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues, to publish, in addition, the evidence which was given to the Committee. Certain portions of this evidence have had to be omitted on grounds of security, but the whole of it has been seen by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and I think that he will confirm that he is satisfied that the omissions are necessary on security grounds.
Finally, in the light of the Report, the Government have closely examined all the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the actions of the Departments concerned, and also considered its implications for the future of the D Notice system. The Government's conclusions are contained in a White Paper which is being published simultaneously with the Report and evidence.
The Government have been giving very careful thought to the lessons to be drawn from this incident by both parties to the D Notice system. The White Paper emphasises that
"the Government attach the greatest importance to maintaining and strengthening the D Notice system and to retaining the free and voluntary co-operation of the Press in its

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effective working. For their part, they will do all in their power, consistently with their overriding responsibility for national security, to contribute to this purpose."
I propose, therefore, to take the earliest opportunity of discussing personally with the Press how this might best be done.
When hon. Members have had time to study the documents which are being published today, the House will, no doubt, wish to debate them. The necessary arrangements can be discussed through the usual channels.
Mr. Heath: I confirm what the Prime Minister has said, that I am satisfied that the omissions and deletions which have been made are necessary on grounds of security.
Will the Prime Minister now tell the House whether Lord Radcliffe's Committee confirmed his accusation in the House that the story in the Daily Express was a breach of the long-standing D Notice convention?
The Prime Minister: The House will read the Report for itself and our White Paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer".] I shall answer the question. I have not got the text of the Report before me, but Lord Radcliffe states, first, that it is very difficult to form a view on this. He states that prima facie it would appear to be in breach, but he goes on to say—paraphrasing it—that, in the light of the practice under which the D Notice system is now operated, he considers that there was no breach. In our White Paper we give our reasons why we believed then, had reason to believe, and still believe, that there was a breach of the D Notice.
I should say, further, that Lord Radcliffe has confirmed what many had thought was one of the main issues here, that there has been no change in the practice under the system. There has been no change in the practice which, I told the House, had operated for over 40 years. To this end, therefore, the whole sensational article was based on something which is not endorsed by the Report.
Mr. Heath: As the Prime Minister has rejected the main finding of the Radcliffe Committee, will he say whether he accepts or rejects the rest of the recommendations?
The Prime Minister: Certainly, I shall answer that question. We accept the recommendation with regard to the practice. As regards Lord Radcliffe's recommendation for changes in the system, it is quite clear that the system cannot be left where it is. There have been faults on both sides. It is now clear that the system is in danger of total collapse, following this incident, and that this would have grave effects on security. While we accept Lord Radcliffe's recommendation for improvements in the system, we believe that they do not go far enough, and we have further proposals, which will be indicated in the White Paper, for an improvement in the working of the system. We are very anxious, as I said in my statement, to do this in such a way that it can be done without limiting the freedom of the Press.
Mr. Bellenger: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on deciding to publish the Report to the House—after all, it was this House that set up the inquiry—are the deletions on the grounds of security minimal in quantity or substantial?
The Prime Minister: I must say, first, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, that all the deletions are confined to those necessary on grounds of security. There are no deletions so far as the Report is concerned, but only the non-publication, as recommended by the Committee, of the secret annex which deals with some of the most secret things it had to consider. Similarly, with the evidence, there are very few deletions apart from that part of it which relates to the secret annex. I think that I am right in saying—the right hon. Gentleman will confirm this—that the deletions are very small in relation to the total volume of the evidence available.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Since it appears that the Prime Minister made a charge and that Lord Radcliffe and his Committee, after careful investigation and objective consideration, have concluded that it is not well founded, would it not be proper for the Prime Minister, while no doubt maintaining his good faith in the matter, to make some expression of regret?
The Prime Minister: I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should await his study of the Report—of all

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that the Report says and not only the conclusions referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He should also, as I am sure he will, study the evidence and our White Paper. Then, when we debate it, it would be right for all of us in the House to express our views on the matter.
Mr. Thorpe: Is the Prime Minister aware that many of us would like to be associated with his expression of gratitude to the very distinguished Privy Councillors, and also welcome the opportunity of an early debate? Can he say what is the position of the Secretary of the D Notice Committee, Colonel Lohan? Has he tendered his resignation, or is that not so?
The Prime Minister: I think that he made announcements to that effect last week when certain stories appeared in the Press that he was going to do so. Perhaps I may take this opportunity to make clear something on which there has been some misunderstanding. Colonel Lohan has not been submitted to any disciplinary procedure nor has he been before any disciplinary board. Because of certain rather important conflicts in the evidence affecting the particular incident, and since, in the White Paper, we wanted to deal not only with the incident, but with reforms in the D Notice system, it was necessary to go more deeply into some of these questions. Colonel Lohan was asked to appear before the appropriate Civil Service board in order to do this, but there was certainly no question of disciplinary proceedings in what occurred.
Mr. Ensor: Did the Radcliffe Report disclose the sources revealed to the Daily Express on the night of 21st February of the story which appeared the following day under the headline, "Cable Vetting Sensation"?
The Prime Minister: The sources were not disclosed on the night of the 21st, as is clear from the Report. This story had been picked up several days earlier, first by the Daily Mail and then by the Daily Express. As to the source, it is a Mr. Lawson. I think that there is a full account in the Report of Mr. Lawson and his activities. I should make clear that the Daily Express has made clear in its evidence that there is no question
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of cheque book journalism. It did not pay him any money. Mr. Lawson, however, is now pressing for money.
Sir Richard Glyn: The Prime Minister said that there were faults on both sides. For which faults does he take responsibility, and will he make an apology to the Daily Express and the other newspapers concerned?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will form his own view when he has studied the Report. As for which faults I take responsibility, they are all those in the Government machinery so far as this was concerned. There were undoubtedly—and it is clear from the White Paper that this is why action was thoroughly needed—defects in communisation between Departments. There were misunderstandings of instructions, there were instructions given that were not carried out in one particular case. I would take my responsibility certainly with those right hon. Gentlemen who have preceded my right hon. Friends and myself in our office for the way in which certain aspects of the D Notice system are run.
The very difficult and anomalous position of the Secretary is adversely commented on in the Report. We intend to make a number of reforms in this sphere and the fact that he was not put in a position to know all the facts which he should have known and the reason why. For all these, I accept responsibility.
Mr. Moonman: We are all grateful for my right hon. Friend's statement. Did the Radcliffe Committee examine the statement made by Mr. Chapman Pincher on 22nd February that his inquiries showed that
"Although sporadic checks of cables had always been permissible"—
Hon. Members: Reading.
Mr. Moonman: It is a quotation.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman cannot make a quotation in a supplementary question. He must ask his own question.
Mr. Moonman: Would the Prime Minister be prepared to make a statement on this important matter, because I think that it is relevant to all the inquiry?
The Prime Minister: I have already dealt with this point by saying that the

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Committee makes it clear that there has been no change in the practice. The article was, as I said in the House originally, highly sensationalised. On the second day it referred to Big Brother methods of interception of cables and all the rest of it. Whether Big Brother or not, it is clear from the Radcliffe Committee, as I told the House originally, that there has been no change in the methods as operated by the previous Conservative Government and, indeed, by every Government for a number of years. I think that on behalf of the previous Conservative Government and myself I should refute the suggestion that it is done on Big Brother lines.
Mr. Carlisle: The Prime Miniser says that it is proposed to publish a White Paper setting out the facts and reasons why the Government believed, and still believe, that there was a breach of D Notice procedure. Were all those facts and grounds of belief set before the Radcliffe Committee when it apparently rejected that statement?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The Government gave evidence to the Committee. When I say the Government, I mean the individuals concerned in these events. So did more than one newspaper—a number of newspapers concerned. But—and this was the point from which we started—any Government have overriding responsibility for security here. It is the Government's view that this whole incident has had a very serious effect on security. We are concerned to minimise the effects on security and that is why we have gone into these questions so fully.
Certainly, if the situation were left where it is today by the Radcliffe Report it would be impossible to operate a satisfactory security system in this country. That is why we disagree with the Report in this important finding.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that whatever issues may be raised by the Report, and that he himself is raising in the White Paper, the central issue remains that he accused the Daily Express and its executives of a deliberate breach of the D Notice convention and that the Radcliffe Committee, formed by the Prime Minister at the highest level, has rejected that accusation?
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This is a question of the Prime Minister's own standing in the matter and a question of misleading the House and making an accusation against a newspaper. If the Government will give time for the debate, it is this central issue on which the debate must centre.
The Prime Minister: Certainly, the debate will centre on this, and I shall deal with this matter in the debate. But I do not accept that it is the only or, indeed, the central issue. The central issue of this whole question is the Government's responsibility for security and how this can be secured with full regard to the freedom of the Press and the danger done by this. The right hon. Gentleman and I and one or two of my right hon. Friends, alone in the House, have seen the Report and so we have this advantage or disadvantage compared with other hon. Members. The right hon. Gentleman has seen the whole very difficult argument before the Committee reached its ultimate conclusions. It is a conclusion which, for reasons which I have stated and will state more fully in the debate, we cannot accept.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that we shall be debating this when we have all seen the Report.

MIDDLE EAST
The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Thomson): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement on the latest situation in the Middle East.
The main development in the Arab/Israel conflict since the Foreign Secretary's Statement in the House has been the achievement of a cease-fire on the Syrian front. The cease-fire is now being generally maintained. Today, we have heard that the Soviet Government intend to ask for the Middle East to be discussed at the Special Assembly of the United Nations.
It was to me encouraging that General Odd Bull, of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation, played a key part in arranging the final and effective cease-fire and that the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation observers are now in position on both sides of

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the cease-fire line. This Government and indeed the House as a whole have expressed the view that, wherever there has been a United Nations presence on both sides of the borders, it has greatly helped in preventing conflict. I hope that this will become a key factor of all the border arrangements.
As an effective step towards making the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation as effective as possible during the present critical period, I hope that General Bull will be able to return to the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation headquarters in Jerusalem.
I now turn to some specific points on which the House, I know, would like to have some information. The first is the question of British subjects in the area. As the Foreign Secretary told the House in an earlier statement, emergency evacuation arrangements have been put into operation wherever the situation on the ground warranted it. British subjects have been evacuated overland from Syria into Turkey and from Iraq into Iran.
Over 300 British subjects were evacuated in American aircraft on Sunday morning from Amman to Tehran, where they were picked up by British aircraft to complete their journey to this country. I would like to express our gratitude to the United States Government for their generous assistance in this operation. I am glad to report that, as far as we know, in all these cases the evacution has been completed without any loss of life. Evacuation arrangements for British subjects in Egypt are in hand and over 300 left Alexandria this morning.
The Suez Canal remains closed to navigation. The Canal Authority has said that the canal is obstructed by small vessels sunk by Israeli action, but the Israeli authorities have denied taking any such action. The position seems to be in any case, that some vessels are sunk in the waterway.
Four British cargo ships are in the Great Bitter Lake in the canal, together with several ships of other nationalities. We are in close touch with the owners concerned and they, in turn, have had some limited radio contact with the ships themselves. Some food supplies are running short, but we understand that it is possible to obtain fresh supplies locally.
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We have asked the Canadian Government who act for us in the absence of diplomatic relations with the United Arab Republic, to inquire urgently of the U.A.R. authorities what the prospects are for the early departure of the four ships and also to give the crews whatever help they can.
As regards oil, exports from Arab countries are still stopped or restricted. The readjustment of existing supplies and the high level of stocks in many importing countries including the United Kingdom, provided a breathing space during which it is hoped that the tensions which led to the supply interruptions will ease and more normal conditions will return.
It has been made clear to the Governments concerned that the allegations of British and American intervention, which were the immediate cause of the supply interruptions, are completely without foundations. In the meantime, the main importing countries and the other countries associated with them in the O.E.C.D. are at this moment consulting together on the supply question.
We are, naturally, very concerned about the human suffering emerging in the aftermath of the fighting. We are acutely disturbed about the danger of a new refugee problem being superimposed on the existing one. This is, in our view, a practical matter of human importance which concerns the whole international community, and to which the United Nations organisation should address itself urgently.
Meanwhile, we have information that large number of refugees have already crossed to the east bank of the River Jordan. It seems plain that a relief problem of major proportions is building up. The voluntary organisations in this country are considering what they can do. Her Majesty's Government have agreed to make financial provision for emergency relief in Jordan and we are urgently considering what we can provide from British Government stocks in Cyprus as a first step.
So much for the present. We must now look to the future. There will clearly be a long process of negotiations and bargaining ahead before the shape of a settlement emerges. It is our hope that the United Nations will be able to play

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a vigorous and realistic part in this process. Certainly, the United Kingdom delegation to the United Nations will do its utmost to contribute to achieving that outcome.
Lord Balniel: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's statement about the situation and the news that the cease-fire is being maintained and that, apparently, the interests of British subjects in the area are being effectively cared for.
First, as it is likely that the Egyptian story of British participation in the war will be perpetuated to the detriment of long-term British interests, what steps are the Government taking to implement their offer that an impartial body should inspect the British aircraft carriers in the area, so as to make it clear to the world that this story is not correct?
Second, as the right hon. Gentleman says that the Suez Canal is closed to navigation, and as four British ships are apparently marooned in the Great Bitter Lake, is there any indication that the Egyptians intend to open the canal to navigation? If not, what steps are the maritime nations thinking of taking to open this important international highway?
Third, would the right hon. Gentleman agree that probably the most constructive step which the United Nations can take in contributing to the long-term stability of the area lies in trying to solve the refugee problem rather than in imposing any international settlement of the territorial disputes?
Mr. Thomson: With regard to the lies which were put out by Cairo Radio about British and American involvement in the fighting, Her Majesty's Government are using every available resource to try to pin that lie down. In particular, of course, we are working hard with those countries in the Arab world with which we have always had good and friendly relations to convince them that they have been misled in this matter. We are, of course, pursuing this with the United Nations and, in consultation with the United States, discussing what is the most effective way to get a proper United Nations investigation of these malicious and utterly unfounded charges.
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With regard to the reopening of the Suez Canal, the most urgent matter is to concentrate on getting the stranded ships moving, but we are, of course, in consultation with other countries about the general question of maritime passage through the canal.
Finally, I made some mention of the refugee problem in my statement, which I hope will reassure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government feel that the most urgent matter for the international community to apply itself to is to use the United Nations not for power politics, as seems to be the temptation on the part of the Soviet Union, but to tackle the problems of human suffering in this region in the aftermath of war.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I welcome what my right hon. Friend said about a contribution to the maintenance of the refugees' immediate relief. Will he propose the setting up of an international fund of sufficient size to enable the refugee problem to be liquidated by the settlement of these refugees in other countries where they can find profitable jobs?
Mr. Thomson: We should bear in mind that, next to the United States, Her Majesty's Government have always been the biggest contributor to the U.N.R.R.A. operation. Naturally, we are anxious to ensure that the existing refugee problem is not greatly enlarged by the present events in the Middle East. In looking at the best means of dealing with the problem of the aftermath of war, I shall, of course, bear in mind my right hon. Friend's suggestion.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House will be greatly relieved to hear that the Government are at last taking seriously the plight of the five ships in the Great Bitter Lake? Are they now seriously considering any contingency planning to deal with all the eventualities which may arise before the ships emerge from the canal, which may well be two weeks?
Mr. Thomson: We are taking every possible step to ensure the welfare of the people on these ships and their swiftest possible passage out of the canal. I cannot, of course, accept the hon. Gentleman's use of the phrase "at last". This matter has been the subject of urgent attention from the moment the problem arose.
Mr. Shinwell: In view of the allegation about British intervention on the side of the State of Israel, made by the United Arab Republic and by some representatives of the other Arab States, has any inquiry been made into the statement which has appeared in several newspapers, and which apparently emanates from the State of Israel, that, during hostilities in Syria, several Russian Army officers were captured, which seems to indicate Russian intervention on the other side of the fence? Have the Government made any inquiries about this?
Mr. Thomson: I have seen the newspaper reports and the photographs. However, in the absence of diplomatic relations in the country concerned, there is no direct confirmation of what happened on the Syrian side.
Mr. Heath: In view of the importance of this inquiry, may I press the right hon. Gentleman further? Did Lord Caradon make this offer to the Security Council? If not, when was the offer of an independent inquiry made? If the United Nations is not prepared to undertake it, could not Her Majesty's Government arrange it directly with the countries concerned? And if individual Governments do not send representatives could not the Government make these observations available to the world's Press so that they may judge for themselves?
Mr. Thomson: The offer was first made in the United Nations at the moment, almost immediately, after the lie was originally broadcast. What we are now actively considering must be an effective way to propose a United Nations inquiry. The important thing, as the right hon. Gentleman said, is to nail the lie; and we would not rule out any particular means of making it plain to as many countries in the world as possible that this was a quite unfounded allegation.
Mr. Heath: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the urgency of this matter—that it is a week since it was first broadcast over Middle Eastern radios? Still to be trying to arrange something is surely not the way of nailing the lie.
Mr. Thomson: The Leader of the Opposition is less than just in this case to the constant efforts that have been
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made day by day by every means at our disposal to make sure that the truth is known throughout the world.
Mr. Park: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that any lasting settlement of the Middle Eastern crisis can be brought about only under the auspices of the United Nations and that it will not come as a result of harsh and humiliating terms being offered by the victor to the vanquished, which can only have the effect of renewing antagonisms?
Mr. Thomson: If my hon. Friend studies my statement he will find that in my closing sentences I directed my remarks to that point.
Mr. Tapsell: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether Her Majesty's Government are taking any initiative to bring the Israeli and Arab Governments to the conference table? May I repeat a question which I put to his right hon. Friend a week ago: that if the Security Council is not united in its approach to this problem, would not it be wise to find a suitable small neutral country which is prepared to take the chair at the conference table?
Mr. Thomson: We have not forgotten the hon. Gentleman's suggestion in that respect. However, I think that the first thing is to see what can be done in the Security Council and through the United Nations machinery.
Perhaps I should remind the House that this problem, as far as Britain is concerned, is not simply one related to the Arab-Israel conflict, but is -related to the Middle East as a whole. Our most direct interests and responsibilities lie not in the area of the Arab-Israel conflict, but in Southern Arabia and the Gulf. We must remember this.
Mr. James Davidson: Although the right hon. Gentleman partly answered this question, will he give the view of Her Majesty's Government on the prospect of direct negotiations between the Israeli and Arab nations? Do the Government support the view that the Israelis should maintain the present cease-fire lines pending the outcome of a final settlement?
Mr. Thomson: I do not think that one can look too far into the future in considering this question at the moment. It

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is a very early stage at which to speculate. I said that, in the first place, we must work through the United Nations. I also believe that we must see what happens there during the next day or two.
Mr. Michael Foot: While I am extremely grateful for my right hon. Friend's statement about the part which the United Nations has played, or has helped to play, in the securing of a cease-fire, and in helping the refugees, may I ask whether he would reply more specifically to the question about the frontiers? Does he not agree that the question of the frontiers which are to prevail between the State of Israel and the Arab States is not one to be settled solely by the countries directly concerned, but by the whole international community, remembering that otherwise the whole basis of the United Nations will be undermined?
Mr. Thomson: I am sorry if I failed to explain myself sufficiently clearly. I thought that I had laid great emphasis on our belief that progress in this matter should be made through the United Nations. Clearly, as my hon. Friend says, the question of the frontiers—of withdrawal from land gained by, for example, military conquest—is central to this problem.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that while the Suez Canal is closed aid to the refugees and other Arab countries may be delayed? Has he seen the latest reports from Egypt, that the canal may be closed for two to six months? What steps can Her Majesty's Government take, either in the United Nations or elsewhere, to get the canal opened, remembering that we are informed that only two or three vessels are sunk in the canal and would have to be removed to reopen it, as Egypt was obliged to do under international law? What are the Government doing? Are they treating this as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Thomson: I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that the question of opening the canal and freeing the British ships, as well as the ships of many other nationalities, is being treated by us and other countries with the greatest urgency?
Mr. Colin Jackson: Can my right hon. Friend give any further information about the refugees on the west bank of the Jordan? There seems to be a conflict of evidence, some of it that 100,000 refugees have gone east across the Jordan and some of it that the Israeli local authorities had asked them to stay? Would Her Majesty's Government consider raising this subject in the Security Council with a view to getting United Nations' observers there on the spot?
Mr. Thomson: It is impossible to give any accurate estimate of the numbers of refugees leaving the west bank of the Jordan for the east bank. People are too busy in the present situation to count heads accurately. I hope that my statement made it clear that we were intending to approach this problem through the United Nations.
Mr. Hogg: The House will have read that thousands of soldiers are walking across the desert without water at this present hour. Will the right hon. Gentleman impress on the victors the desirability that they should not, if possible, be allowed to die of thirst?
Mr. Thomson: Everybody who has read the stories and seen some of the pictures of the destruction must have been moved by this as one of the most heart-rending examples of the aftermath of war. I understand that the International Red Cross is operating in the area and I hope that it can do something to help. I certainly endorse the right hon. and learned Gentleman's appeal.
Mr. Orme: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that if a permanent peace is to be achieved in the Middle East—a peace acceptable to both the Israeli and the Arab States—we do not want to see a further escalation of the refugee problem? What specific steps do Her Majesty's Government intend to take to raise this matter, along with the other problems involved, in the United Nations, the only place where I and many of my hon. Friends agree this matter can be resolved?
Mr. Thomson: The main immediate step is to give some help, and this we are doing by sending emergency supplies. After that, it is a matter for discussion in the United Nations.
Mr. Maude: Whatever form of United Nations presence is ultimately established on the frontiers or cease-fire lines, will the Government do everything in their power to ensure that it cannot be removed except by the Assembly or Security Council and not by the Secretary General at the request of only one side?
Mr. Thomson: The hon. Gentleman has raised one of the very important problems and terms of any final settlement in this conflict. Clearly, that final settlement is a long way ahead yet and it would be rash for me to speculate at this moment about exactly what form it might take.
Mr. Abse: In view of the fact that the intervention of all outside parties in the Middle East has hitherto been so disastrous, and the basic cause of the trouble has been the non-recognition of Israel by the Arab States, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the folly and dangers of attempting to impose a peace if there is not, as a preliminary, a recognition of the State of Israel at the negotiating table by all the Arab States?
Mr. Thomson: I do not believe that this is a matter which can be isolated or divorced from the international community as a whole. They have a legitimate interest in what sort of settlement emerges here, though, naturally, the first responsibility lies on the immediate contestants.
Sir J. Langford-Holt: Ls the right hon. Gentleman aware, in respect of the allegation about British intervention, that there are people throughout the world who still believe it and that nothing he has said in answer to questions today gives us any comfort? Is he aware that what is required now is something urgently to be done by Her Majesty's Government? Otherwise, if this goes on for another week, it will be easy for people who started this lie to say that we have had time to destroy the evidence?
Mr. Thomson: I assure the House that everything possible is being done, with the greatest possible urgency. However, it should be remembered that a lie like this is easily put out but is difficult to erase. With all deference to the hon. Gentleman, may I say that it would be easier to erase this lie if there was not
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an historic precedent which was not a lie.
Sir B. Janner: Will my right hon. Friend be realistic in this matter? Is not he aware that time after time the Israeli Government have asked the Arabs to come to the conference table? Is he not aware that these two peoples, who understand the mentality of each other, would be able to settle the differences between themselves rather than by the imposition of any outside influences, which have let them down very badly in the past? Will he please direct his attention towards a settlement between the Arabs and Israelis at a peace conference of their own, so that there will be no misunderstanding in future?
Mr. Thomson: I admire my hon. Friend's optimism in this matter, but I am afraid that one of the things which has made this an intractable international problem has been the difficulty of getting the two sides round the conference table to discuss peace constructively between each other. It is, therefore, legitimate to believe that the United Nations has a rôle to play in dealing with this problem.
Sir R. Cary: In view of the comforting remarks that have been made about the high level of oil stocks as distinct from supplies, will the right hon. Gentleman deny the suggestion made in the newspapers this morning that we will be under petrol rationing within six weeks?
Mr. Thomson: That is primarily a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power. I have certainly seen no evidence to support that particular story in the Press.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Earl of Dalkeith: On a point of order. In view of the relevance of Question No. 65 to the Minister's statement on the Middle East, may we have an answer to it now?
Mr. Speaker: I have had no request from the Minister to answer the noble Lord's Question.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: Further to that point of order. I have on today's Order Paper Questions Nos. 48 and 49 to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I received a letter from the Treasury on Friday saying that these Questions would be answered today.
Mr. Speaker: Such information has not reached the Chair.
Mr. Lloyd rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I can do nothing about it. If the hon. Gentleman's Questions are not answered orally today, he will no doubt get a Written Answer.

BILLS PRESENTED
  FEU-DUTIES, MULTURES AND LONG LEASES (SCOTLAND)
  Bill to invalidate any future feu charters or multures; to enable superiors, vassals, etc., to require the redemption of existing feu-duties, etc., and to require local authorities to provide loans in certain circumstances for this purpose; to authorise compensation on termination of long leases; to modify or alter feudal and similar conditions; to enable allocation of feu-duty to be required; and for purposes connected therewith, presented by Mr. James Davidson; supported by Mr. Russell Johnston, Mr. Alasdair Mackenzie, and Mr. David Steel; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed. [Bill 272.]
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT 1949 (AMENDMENT) (No. 3)
  Bill to enable reference to be made on nomination and ballot papers at parliamentary and local elections to the political or other allegiances of candidates and to make provision to avoid inaccurate use of such allegiances, presented by Mr. Denis Coe; supported by Mr. Arthur Davidson, Dr. Ernest Davies, Mr. William Hamling, Mr. Alexander Lyon, Mr. James Tinn and Mr. David Watkins; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed. [Bill 273.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  PRICES AND INCOMES (No. 2) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Minister to move the Second Reading, may I say that I have not selected the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton).
  4.15 p.m.
  The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Parliament and country are agreed that prices and incomes should be the subject of policy—that is to say, that they should not be left to sort themselves out and that there should be a deliberate attempt by those concerned—employers, employed and the Government—to see that prices and incomes are properly geared to the production of real wealth.
  The objects in mind in making productivity, prices and incomes the subject of policy are, first, that we may be able to protect our balance of payments against the danger of inflation and be able to embark on economic growth without fear of its being arrested by a balance of payments crisis; secondly, that we may be able to give some help to those who are the worst sufferers if there is a free-for-all in prices and incomes—that is to say, those who are the lowest paid and those who, by reason of age, are not working and are on small fixed incomes.
  But there is a third object of policy, which is emerging with increasing clearness from the events of the last 12 months—that the development of incomes policy itself can point the way to the use of methods in industry which encourage the production of real wealth. So a policy of this kind is not only a safeguard for our balance of payments and a safeguard for the ill-paid and those on small incomes. It can also be an instrument for the positive promotion of economic growth.
  This general national agreement that there should be a policy for productivity, prices and incomes found expression in the Statement of Intent. It may be easy to ridicule perhaps the fact that the Statement of Intent was not carried out with

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  the same zeal with which it was signed. But we have to note that the creation of policy rather than a free-for-all in this field is something which every nation which has tried it—and it has been tried with varying degrees of success—has found that it could not be done quickly or immediately or at the first attempt and that a combination of the difficulties of getting people to turn intent into practice and of certain particular difficulties which affected our economy at that time led us from the Statement of Intent to the emergency position we faced last July.
  Last July, therefore, the whole concept of productivity, prices and incomes policy had to wear for a time a different face. It could not wear the face of voluntarism embodied in the Statement of Intent—it had to wear the face of stringent powers in the hands of the Government embodied in Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966. We moved then from the Statement of Intent to Part IV and this Bill is a stage in moving backwards steadily towards a properly voluntary system.
  It is in that context that the Bill should be understood, since Part IV of the Act—and I trust that there is no doubt about this—expires completely, ceases to be part of the law, on 11th August this year. We have now to undertake the task of moving from this situation of stringent legislative powers to a system of prices and incomes policy which shall be both voluntary and effective.
  As I have said, it is in this context that we must see the Bill and I want briefly now to run through the provisions of the Measure. It has to be read together with Part II of the Prices and Incomes Act and the House will, in due course, be invited to approve the necessary Order in Council which brings Part II into force. In the first place, Part 11 gives to the Government power to require advance notification of any proposed increase of prices or wages or salaries. Although we shall call Part II into existence and the Government will, therefore, have the power to require those notifications, we both hope and expect to be able to rely very largely, if not wholly, on voluntary notification.
  The consultations we have had indicate that it will be Possible for the Government to get the advance notifications they want by voluntary means, but it is desir-
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  able, when one is trying to work a voluntary system, to see that the great majority who will co-operate with one should not be put in a worse position than a minority who will not. If, therefore, there are avoidances it will be possible for the Government to use the power to require notification which is contained in Part II.
  Next, Part II gives the Government power—again, power which may or may not be used—in certain circumstances to halt proposed increases either in prices or in wages. The Government can do so in the first instance for a period of not more than 30 days, during which they must decide whether to refer the proposed increase to the National Board for Prices and Incomes and, further, to halt that increase for a period of three months or until the Board reports, whichever period is the shorter. Those briefly are the powers contained in Part II of the Prices and Incomes Act.
  Clause 1 proposes to increase those powers in this respect—that the kind of standstill that can be imposed on increases in Part II may be continued for a period of up to six months from the time the proposed increase is referred to the Board. But this can only be done provided that the Board's report supports such action. In all cases—and this is an essential principle of the Bill—the Government will not be able to act in a manner more hostile to a proposed increase than is the report of the Board. They will, if they see fit, be able to adopt a more relaxed attitude than the Board to an increase, but will not be able to go beyond what the Board has recommended. That is the effect of Clause 1. It deals with a situation where the Government have been notified of a proposed increase and if they decide that it is necessary to halt that increase.
  But, clearly, a situation could arise in which manufacturers, suppliers or employers and employed put an increase into effect without giving any advance notification. If there were no power to deal with that, it would give exactly the position we want to avoid—that people who refused to co-operate would be in a better position than those who do cooperate by notifying the Government of proposed increases.
  Clause 2, therefore, makes it possible, when this situation has arisen, to require

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  an increase to be reversed—for the price or wage to be put back to what it was previously, for those who have acted without notification to be put back in the same position as those who have notified the Government what they propose to do.
  A similar situation could arise, dealt with by Clause 3, where, to begin with, possibly the parties have proceeded in a voluntary manner, have notified the increase and it has been referred to the Board, but then, either before or after the Board has reported, the incease has been put into effect despite the fact that it is not supported by the Board's report. In these circumstances, also, the Government will have power under Clause 3 to put the price or wage back to what it previously was. That is the position with regard to Clauses 1, 2 and 3.
  These powers are subject to considerable safeguards. When the Prices and Incomes Act was passed, and again when Part IV of it was called into operation last October, a number of apprehensions were expressed that this was giving too great an arbitrary power to the Government. I think that the course of events and the use of the power since then has largely removed those apprehensions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I shall be returning to that point.
  None the less, it was thought desirable to surround the powers in the Bill with safeguards. The House should notice, first of all, that the use of them is limited by the fact that they cannot be more hostile to the parties concerned than the report of the Board is. Secondly, they are subject to the control of Parliament. There are certain powers in Part II which are subject to direct Parliamentary check, others that are less directly subject. But wherever there is an increase of power in this Bill over what is in Part II, that will be subject to Parliamentary check.
  There is, furthermore, the check that the powers cannot be used without the opportunity for the parties concerned to make representations and for there to be consultations about the use of the powers. Further, Clauses 1, 2 and 3 cease to have effect after 11th August, 1968. Any Orders that have been made under these Clauses and are still in force at that date can run on for the six-months period
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  from the time the reference was made to the Board, but there will be no power to make further Orders after 11th August, 1968. Both in duration and then in the way the powers are to be exercised, they are surrounded with careful safeguards against any arbitrary behaviour by the Government.
  Mr. J. J. Mendelson: My right hon. Friend says that there will be no further Orders after that date. When the Prices and Incomes Act was introduced, we were told that when Part IV came to an end there would be no further legislation. Has my right hon. Friend decided that there will be no further similar legislation after August, 1968?
  Mr. Stewart: No. I am not going to make that statement. It has been made quite clear that it will be a matter for Parliament to decide at that time.
  It is both my hope and my expectation that it will not be necessary to have any powers then, because experience during this period has shown that, although there have been powers, the thing has worked very largely by voluntary co-operation and that the whole spirit and intent of working it voluntarily has been strengthened, as has been apparent in the discussions with the T.U.C. during the past 12 months.
  If this desire to work the thing voluntarily continues to grow in that manner during this next 12 months, one can give the answer that both my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) and I would want at that time, but I do not think that it would be sensible or prudent to try and give an answer in the definite form that my hon. Friend asks for it now.
  Clauses 4 and 5 are rather different in character. Clause 4(1) clears up a matter that is in doubt in the working of the Act. It provides that, where a standstill on either prices or wages by virtue either of Part II or of the Bill during the stage of standstill, there cannot be an increase. For example, it might be said, "There is a standstill at the moment on this particular set of wages". But the employer may say, "I propose to pay an increase and pay it now, not in virtue of work done now but retrospectively for something done earlier". It was not clear previously

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  whether that could legally be done. Subsection (1) makes it clear that a standstill is, in fact, a standstill and that, during a period of standstill, increases may not be paid for the reason I have mentioned or any other other.
  Clause 4(2) establishes the principle that, where there was agreement between employers and employed for an increase, and this was halted by virtue of a standstill, at the end of the period of standstill the employer cannot be sued retrospectively for the money he did not pay out during the standstill. It would he legal for him to pay it if he wished, but he could not be legally compelled to pay it. Therefore, whether such payment was made would become not a matter of law, but a matter of industrial bargaining. It has not been the practice in private industry, as distinct from the public service, to have retrospective payments of this kind, and it would be extremely undesirable if it were to become so.
  Mr. Terence L. Higgins: Could the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether an employer would be protected or not if he refused to volunteer in this way and the union took strike action against him?
  Mr. Stewart: There would be no legal sanction there.
  One defect in our bargaining arrangements about public servants is that the method has provided sometimes for very long periods of retrospection. We should not imagine that civil servants are a privileged class for that reason. It sometimes means that for periods long after their case for an increase has been established, and other people are getting theirs, they stand out for their money. We expect to be able to put that right and reduce the amount of retrospection. It is not a good way of arranging wage and salary bargaining, anyhow. That is one of the things to which our attention has been directed during the last 12 months and we are putting it right.
  Clause 5 disposes of certain problems which arose out of the period we have been through since Part IV was put into operation. It disposes of them by establishing that an employer cannot be sued for money which has been withheld as a result of restraints which have been imposed during the last 12 months. There
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  have been a number of instances where agreements have been made and then not put into force because both said sides have agreed that they should not be put into force because of the general tenor of Government policy or because of Orders made under Part IV.
  Although that has been done in many instances by agreement between employers and the trade unions, it would still be legally possible at any time during the next six years for any individual employee to sue for the money. This could not be accepted by anyone as a satisfactory situation. The effect, therefore, of Clause 5 is to remove this liability—in fact, to wipe the slate clean of the particular problems that arose during the Part IV period.
  It has been necessary, while going through the Clauses of the Bill, to make frequent references to powers.
  Mr. Mark Carlisle: Surely the problems are far greater than that, because under subsection (7), even if a man has already obtained a judgment in the courts that he is entitled to be paid an agreed rate of salary, the Government are now asking Parliament to pass a Bill which would then allow the employer to go back to the courts and have that judgment set aside. This is surely a most monstrous piece of retrospective legislation.
  Mr. Stewart: That is true with regard to proceedings that occur in the period mentioned in the Bill. I do not think that it is monstrous for this reason. The general purpose of the Clause is right, but there was a risk that, as soon as the text of the Bill appeared, there might be a number of actions of this kind. That would have been unjust and that is why it was necessary to impose this limitation. Possibly the hon. Gentleman may wish to see this point further pursued in Committee on the Bill.
  Mr. Carlisle: This is very important, because in the Court of Appeal today there is the case of Allen v. Thorn Electrical Industries. Do I understand that if the Court of Appeal finds in favour of Allen, Parliament is to pass legislation which says that Thorn can go back and have that judgment set aside?
  Mr. Stewart: First, it is not as simple as that. Secondly, we had better wait

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  until that case is decided. I do not want to comment on it while we are still awaiting the decision.
  I was saying that in going through the Clauses of the Bill it has been necessary to use the word "powers" frequently, but I have stressed the extent to which these powers are limited in time and safeguarded in their method of action. I do so all the more because, during the last 12 months, the standstill and restraint have been brought about largely by the voluntary co-operation of those concerned. It is of very great importance to remember this and see that in the future we endeavour to promote and encourage the development of voluntary restraint as much as we can.
  However, there have been cases during the past 12 months where, without either the present use or presence of powers there would have been some increases of prices and wages which could not have been justified in the light of the way other people were faring or in the light of the general economic situation. If those unjustified increases had occurred it would have become progressively more difficult for all those who were trying to make the thing work voluntarily to continue to do so.
  This was particularly drawn to my attention in consultations with the trade union movement at the time of the activation of Part IV. The view of a number of trade unionists—particularly those representing workers who were not so well paid—was that, without Part IV, there would have been a situation in which limited sections—some of them quite well paid—would have obtained increases, and it would have become impossible for the leaders of other sections to have resisted pressure to act likewise. We have had a situation where it has worked very largely voluntarily, but some heart has been put into those who wanted to work it voluntarily by the knowledge that they would not be put in a worse position than those who refused to work the incomes policy and were bent on a free-for-all, whether in prices or incomes, because they felt it might benefit them, whatever the effect might be on the rest of the community.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: The right hon. Gentleman refers regularly
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  to the system working voluntarily or compulsorily. I am a bit mystified, because surely the increase in hourly wage rates over the corresponding stage of the previous stop between July, 1961, and December, 1962–6·4 per cent.—was precisely the same as that forecast by the right hon. Gentleman for the current period from July, 1966, to December, 1967. I do not see that it has made any difference. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain?
  Mr. Stewart: I will be coming to that in a moment.
  I want to review shortly the course of events during the past 12 months. That there has been restraint both on incomes and prices during that period is undoubted. The point I was making—and I am supported in this by the consultations I have had—was that we could not have achieved this if limited sections had been allowed to please themselves. During that time, therefore, the whole concept of making the thing work voluntarily has been strengthened. This was particularly brought out at the conference of trade union executives in March of this year, when there was almost universal acceptance of the view that it was of great importance to make the incomes policy work and to make it work voluntarily. But the question which we have to ask is whether, at this time, when the voluntary system is growing, it would be prudent to jump immediately from a situation in which we have the stringent powers of Part IV to a situation where there are no legislative powers. In the Government's view it must be a more gradual process than that.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: This is a very important matter. I think that my right hon. Friend will agree that this is the point where he and some of his hon. Friends come into sharp disagreement. He has referred to the T.U.C. Was it not also a part of that decision to request that Part II be not activated and no legislation implemented?
  Mr. Stewart: Both of those things were asked, but my hon. Friend is wrong to say that it was part of the decision. It was made very clear at that conference that the T.U.C. was resolved to go through with its own voluntary machinery whether the Government acted, in its view, wisely or unwisely on this point.

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  It would be a misrepresentation to suggest that the trade union movement has taken the view that, because it disagrees with the Government about legislation, it will, therefore, not work the voluntary system. It is to do so, and everyone will wish it well.
  The reason why it is not prudent to jump immediately I shall now explain. We are asking the trade union movement to undertake the great task of a systematic survey and consideration of wage claims with a view to the interests of all workers and the community as a whole. It will be very difficult for it to do that if, at a time when we still have to consider the movements of prices and wages and the balance of payments very carefully, some inside the T.U.C. itself behave as though these considerations of policy do not matter to them.
  Secondly, there is the position of groups of workers in organisations not affiliated to the T.U.C. I am a little surprised that the trade union movement has not taken this point more fully. It would be a rather curious situation if, at a time when, as I say, we still have to watch the movement of wages and prices very carefully, while unions affiliated to the T.U.C. were seriously and determinedly trying to exercise a voluntary policy, groups of workers outside were subject neither to that degree of discipline nor to anything which the Government might propose.
  Thirdly, without the Bill there would be no power to take any action about prices, and, again, it would be difficult to expect the voluntary working of a wages policy to develop if at this stage the Government moved into a position in which they had no power over prices.
  Mr. Norman Atkinson: To demonstrate his argument, can my right hon. Friend give an illustration of action taken against non-trade union workers during the last 12 months, anyone outside the trade union movement who has received a wage increase and against whom the Government decided to take action?
  Mr. Stewart: I sometimes wish that my hon. Friends would wait a little. I am coming to these points. Those are the reasons why the Government believe that it is necessary to legislate on these lines.
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  But, as is apparent from the question which I have just been asked, the judgment of the House on this matter will be conditioned by the use of powers during these 12 months. I take, for example, the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson). There was the question of salary increases not automatic, as in some professions and occupations, but paid at the discretion of the employer. During the period of standstill and of severe restraint, those increases did not, in fact, occur. That was both the intent and the result of Government policy. In some quarters this was one of the criticisms of policy. It was argued that these people were in an unfavourable position compared with those who got automatic salary increases and that this was a large and important example of restraint exercised outside the range covered by the Trades Union Congress.
  Mr. Atkinson: What action was taken?
  Mr. Stewart: There was no need to make an Order, because we got the result without it, and that happened in many cases.
  When reviewing the use of powers in the past, we should remember the situation in which the powers began to be used, the situation leading up to the announcement of last July. In the preceding period, there had been increases of wages and of prices, with the increase in wages considerably outstripping the increase of prices and both of them regrettably outstripping the increase in the growth of real wealth. This produced a situation in which the pressure of increasing costs was liable to result in a very rapid rise in prices.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Whose fault was that?
  Mr. Stewart: Further, there were certain items of taxation, such as S.E.T. and Purchase Tax, which also tended in that direction. That was the situation with which we had to deal from last July on, and that was why it was made clear last July that, although there must be for six months a standstill on wages, some prices would rise.
  The amount of the rise, the increase in the retail price index in that period, is well known to have been 2½ per cent. That is not a light matter. In a family

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  normally spending about £20, it means another 10s. on the weekly bills, but it is not the runaway increase which has sometimes been depicted. It is not what might have been expected in view of the pressure of costs if we had not taken the action which we took.
  We must also notice that the complete standstill on wages lasted for six months. During the period of severe restraint, some wage increases have already begun to occur. What would have been the position if there had been no powers? We were urged by arguments from those who said that even under the terms of the July White Paper they would have been entitled to raise prices in the summer or late autumn of last year. Because the powers were there, it was possible to hold back those increases by four, or five, or six months. This applied to bread, flour, milk, chocolate—a range of important items. There were also, as, for example, in detergents and a wide range of household goods, petrol and a number of other articles, some reductions in prices.
  In the light of what has happened, it cannot be maintained that the Government have permitted a runaway increase in prices or have operated this policy unfairly between incomes and prices. Further, the powers have not been used recklessly. The total number of workers whose wages have been affected by Orders made under these powers has been 35,000. Before using these powers, we were required to consult the trade union movement and to receive representations from the parties concerned. In no instance did the trade union movement as a whole object to any particular use of the powers which we made. The powers have been used not only carefully, but constructively, because their use involved setting out criteria under which increases would be permitted.
  One was the criterion of productivity, which had the effect of stimulating the growth of productivity agreements and moving thought in industry increasingly in the direction of organising work towards greater productivity. About 200 such agreements were approved during that period, and the Prices and Incomes Board has brought out an extremely useful report on the nature of those agree-
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  ments which will help the development of this in future.
  Another criterion was that people should have a special claim if they were exceptionally ill-paid. Not far short of 2 million workers have received increases during the past 12 months under that criterion. They include agricultural workers, people in drapery and footwear and many sections of the distributive trades.
  What would have been the situation without powers, when there would not have been this special incentive to the development of productivity agreements and when probably all money wages would have risen and prices would have risen much faster—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] As I was explaining earlier; because of the pressure of costs which we faced at the beginning of this period, which would have meant that the increases which were secured by the lowest paid lost a great deal of their value.
  The effect of the working of the policy has been both to improve the prospects and increase the number of productivity agreements and to protect the lowest paid. This points towards the future development of prices and incomes policy. We have had to operate—
  Mr. David Howell: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the acceleration of productivity agreements which may have been brought about by this policy, but would he not also agree that there are many instances in which productivity agreements and incentive payment schemes have been held back or stopped by this policy? Does not that far outweigh the gains he mentioned?
  Mr. Stewart: That is not so. We had to consider this early in the working of the powers with regard to agreements on the Clydeside and it was decided—I think rightly—even at that time, in the middle of the absolute standstill, that that agreement should go through. But one cannot accept everything called a productivity agreement as such merely on face value. That is the importance of the Board's report on this matter.
  These trends in the past point to the future development of prices and incomes policy and we must remember that this

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  policy is concerned with productivity as well as with incomes and prices. The face which it has had to wear recently is the face either of standstill or severe restraint and for the coming period it will be one of cautious moderation, but the permanent nature of incomes policy must be something like this, that we must seek in its operation first to get as near as we can to an agreed estimate of what the growth of real wealth will be over a coming period.
  Having established that, we can then say, "There is a certain minimum increase in income to which everyone who works ought to be entitled." That may be called a norm, but we had better be clear that people will treat it as a minimum and, in determining what it ought to be, should recognise that it will be so treated. Then one must say, "But there are certain groups who have certain claims to get more than that." Some are those who pioneer the way to greater productivity. Some are those who have fared particularly badly in the past and deserve to be helped forward. Then there are further criteria, about the operation of which we have still a good deal to learn, to prevent certain occupations falling seriously behind in the general movement of prices and incomes.
  Therefore, looking back over the last 12 months, it can be claimed that the powers have been used prudently. The account which I have given, which is correct, is very different from some of the predictions of disaster, unrest and imprisonment to which we were treated at the beginning—that they have been used prudently and constructively, that the experience gained will help us in the future forging of the policy.
  I commend the Bill to the House by virtue partly of our past experience, which has shown that the Government have used their powers sensibly, by virtue partly of the present situation, in which the economic position is still difficult and in which it would not be prudent to jump immediately from Part IV to no powers at all and I commend it also in view of the possibilities which the job of working our way through our present difficulties holds for the promoting of fully effective and permanent prices and incomes policy.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Carr: It all sounds very neat and tidy, so long as one plays the game on paper, but in real life it has not worked and will not work, and, so far as it does work, it is utterly illusory to imagine that it promotes fairness or economic efficiency. The hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) had it right, because the motto for action to be drawn from this policy is, "Don't be a trade unionist." What a rallying cry for a nation. What a banner to go forward under to the great adventures to which the Prime Minister called us, a banner with these devices of standstill, severe restraint, cautious moderation—what a wonderful rallying cry for the future they are.
  Mr. Mendelson: Would the right hon. Gentleman put on record that my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) did not say, "Don't be a trade unionist", but said something far more complicated which should not be summed up like that?
  Mr. Carr: The hon. Member for Tottenham can well look after himself. I do not believe that I said that he said that. I think that he was drawing a very real moral from this sort of legislation, namely, that to be a trade unionist is often, under this sort of legislation, disadvantageous—
  Mr. Atkinson: This is so important a statement that I wish to make sure that there is no misunderstanding about the fact that the last advice which I would give the House is, "Never be a trade unionist."
  Mr. Carr: Nor, let me assure the hon. Gentleman, would it be any advice from me. But let me say to him and other trade unionists that we would get rid of this legislation—[An HON. MEMBER: "What would the right hon. Gentleman put in its place?"] I will come to that.
  Nearly 10 years ago I had the honour for three years to be the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, and I cannot help recalling now how right hon. Gentlemen opposite and, indeed, the whole Labour Party, when in opposition, used to attack the slightest suggestion of Government interference in wage negotiations. Even a hint by Conservative Ministers that a wages council, an

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  arbitration board, or a court of inquiry should so much as take the national economic position into account when considering its decisions, brought down the wrath of the whole Labour Party on our heads.
  Mr. Laurence Pavitt rose—
  Mr. Carr: I am sorry. I do not want to give way too much.
  I cannot help recalling a debate—it was the last occasion on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) and myself were a Front Bench team in the same debate—which took place on Thursday, 6th February, 1958. It was opened by the present Lord Robens, who was then "shadow" Minister of Labour. It was in the nature of a censure debate, ending with a Division against the Government.
  Lord Robens said:
  "The second charge is that the Government have contributed to industrial unrest by political interference with the free negotiating machinery in industry."
  Later in the same column he said:
  "… a direct instruction to arbitration courts that they must not merely look at the case submitted but must realise that the Government are saying that there must be no pay advances at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1958; Vol. 581, c. 1366.]
  That was another of his complaints. That was the basis of the censure against the Government.
  That debate was wound up by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). I wish that he could be with us today, but I understand why he cannot in view of his present and quite different responsibilities. In the debate he criticised the action taken by my right hon. Friend. He said:
  "… this is only one of a long series of interventions by the Government designed to arrange things so that they can hold up our wage advances."
  Slightly earlier, he had said:
  "We have never been in business in order to freeze the position of the British worker at the point reached at any particular moment of time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1958; Vol. 581, c. 1461 and 1465.]
  No wonder the right hon. Gentleman came to the brink of resignation last summer. No wonder he could not stomach these sorts of measures. I wonder what made him withdraw.
  Mr. Pavitt rose—
  Mr. Carr: The position is fundamentally the same today as it was then. The first Secretary of State could have made exactly the same argument then as he has made today. At least, in those days right hon. Gentlemen opposite spoke with an authentic voice based on a real feel of what makes things tick on the factory floor. How one longs today for Government policy and action to be touched with the merest brush of practical experience and understanding of the pressures and incentives which motivate action in industry at all levels—from the shop floor up to the board room.
  As I said in another debate last week, what we are getting from the Government day after day, in place of practical policies, is a succession of white elephants conceived in school masters' studies and economists' ivory towers.
  There is no doubt that one of the country's urgent needs both for its strength in the world and for the prosperity of its people is to get increases in earnings in balance with increases in productivity; and we have not been successful in achieving that yet. As the First Secretary fairly said, nor have other countries achieved it; although, unfortunately, we must realise that it is even more important for us, because of our situation, than it is for many other countries. But of one thing I am convinced: it will be achieved only by a whole battery of policies, all creating pressures towards a highly competitive, high productivity, high earning economy and it will never be achieved just by sitting on earnings, profits and prices. It will certainly never be achieved by machinery such as the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966, or by its intended successor, the Bill before us.
  Therefore, we shall oppose the Bill. I shall attempt to expose its wrongness and expound what we believe is the only possible alternative I shall confine myself to basic arguments rather than deal with the detail of the Bill.
  As the First Secretary said, the Bill cannot be considered in isolation. If it could, we might be able to dismiss it, to use Mr. George Woodcock's description of it, as "a bauble or plaything" and be indifferent to its passage. Unfortunately, however, it has to be looked at in the context of all the other actions by the

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  Government in this field over the last 2½ years. In this perspective, it is yet another floundering step towards failure. We believe that it will be inadequate in practice and dangerously wrong in principle, and for those reasons it must be rejected. The Government can no longer be allowed to go on unopposed in this fatal direction.
  The story started, as the First Secretary made clear, in the reign of the present Foreign Secretary at the Department of Economic Affairs. To begin with, in the eyes of the Government, all was hope and light. The milennium of the National Plan was at hand. The theme song of those early days of 1965 might well have been, "All good friends and jolly good company". But, alas, before long that tune went flat. The Declaration of Intent on which the Foreign Secretary and both sides of industry worked so hard became another scrap of paper, not because of lack of good will on the part of the signatories, but because the folly of the Government's economic policies made it impossible of achievement.
  One of the most noteworthy parts of the First Secretary's speech was the way in which he justifies all the measures of the last year because of the economic mess of last summer—as if he had no responsibility for that economic mess. But it was he and his right hon. Friends who caused it.
  At the time of the General Election last year, the Prime Minister told the country, on television:
  "I don't think that you can ever legislate for wages increases … once you have the law prescribing wages I think you're on a very slippery slope. It would be repugnant, I think, to all parties in the country."
  He said that on 10th March, 1966. That was right then, and it is still right now.
  Sir Gerald Nabarro: Read it to them again.
  Mr. Carr: Yet within a few months the Prime Minister was doing just what he had told the country would be wrong. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) that there is no need to read it again, because there is something else which the Prime Minister said later which it is worth reading to the House. I will come to that.
  I return to the July measures in contravention of what the Prime Minister
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  told the country at the election. We must distinguish between the two parts of the Government's action last July—the period of the "freeze" and the period of "severe restraint". It is possible, and it may even be necessary, however unpleasant, for a Government, at a moment of national emergency and for a short period, to clamp a complete standstill on all incomes. It is brutal, but there is a rough justice about it which most people will accept if they can be convinced that it is temporary and that the emergency requires it.
  However, what is wrong, as the Prime Minister told the country in March last year, is to have legislated and State-administered wage increases. But that is exactly what we have had for the first half of this year and it is what is proposed in the Bill we should go on having in another form for a further year at least. Such a system bites so arbitrarily and unevenly that it produces gross anomalies and injustices as well as failing to produce economic expansion and efficiency. We have demonstrated that, and the First Secretary knows we have demonstrated it, by the Prayers which we have moved against every Prices and Incomes Order which the Government have introduced under the 1966 Act.
  If the Bill goes through, the House will be in a perpetual state of prayer. I give notice straight away that the Opposition will insist that every Order is prayed against and examined in detail. We shall study the First Secretary's words very carefully, but I am not clear from what he said about what are the exact powers in this Bill to pray against Orders. That is a point which we shall wish to probe and press strongly when we come to the Committee stage.
  We are told that the whole purpose of the Bill is to be a bridge of statutorily supported moderation across which we shall move from statutory and compulsory standstill and severe restraint to a fully voluntary long-term policy. But who believes that? The Government have an enormous credibility gap to overcome. As I have already recalled, the Prime Minister told the country in March, 1966, that it would be wrong to control wage increases by legislation; yet he did it four months later. He again told the country categorically in another television interview on 6th October, 1966, that there

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  would be no extension of legislative powers when the 1966 Act ran out this August; yet this Bill has been introduced to extend them.
  We do not trust this Government's word, because we have learned by experience not to do so. Whenever the pressure is on, the Government will turn to compulsion because they know of no other way.
  What will happen a year from now if, as may well be the case, inflationary pressures are building up again? Will they really let these powers lapse? The First Secretary was remarkably coy about that a few minutes ago. Will they do that, or shall we be debating the Prices and Incomes (No. 3) Bill? Are there any bets?
  The truth is that compulsion is part and parcel of Socialism in this as in other spheres. While some members of the Government genuinely believe in freedom and in a voluntary system of wage bargaining—and I have no doubt that they include the Minister of Labour—other Ministers do not even pretend to believe in it. The Minister of Transport let the cat out of the bag in a recent party political broadcast on 10th May, when she said:
  "As a Left-wing Socialist, with Dick Crossman and many others, I have produced documents analysing the sort of policy a Labour Government must have. If it is to have proper planning, we said, then we must plan incomes."
  Socialist planning sounds very fine, until one finds oneself on the receiving end. Then one finds that in hard practice the Socialist concept of planning can only be made effective if it is backed by compulsion. It starts without compulsion, but with Ministers and officials meddling in detailed affairs. The meddling leads to muddle, and the muddle then requires compulsion to clear it up.
  Meddle, muddle and compulsion: we oscillate between them. When we come to look at what is achieved, we see that in April, 1965, the Foreign Secretary, who was then First Secretary and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, told the House:
  "There is now an agreed prices and incomes policy in existence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th April, 1965; Vol. 710, c. 533.]
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  By July, 1966, only 15 months later, to use the words of the present First Secretary in a speech at Durham 10 days ago, we were
  "threatened with run-away inflation".
  We are told that that is why we had to have compulsion.
  So we have muddle leading to compulsion. But what has compulsion done for us when we have endured it? The Government now say that they expect a rise, in the 18 months between July, 1966, and December of this year of 6 per cent. in wage rates. In the comparable period of the 1961–62 pay pause, they rose by 5½ per cent., with no compulsion. When we come to prices, since 1964 they have risen by 10·8 per cent. During the last 12 months of compulsory control of both prices and incomes, as the First Secretary told us, prices have risen by 2½ per cent. The significance of that 2½ per cent. figure is that it is the average rate of increase over the last six years of Conservative government, with no compulsion. What more eloquent commentary could there be on the futility of the Government's methods, particularly when we have had unemployment thrown in as well. High unemployment was presented to us as the dreadful alternative to compulsion. In fact, we are having both.
  Mr. Pavitt: When the right hon. Gentleman talks about compulsion, he will recall that in 1957 it was a question of the Health Service workers—the lowest-paid workers—compelled by the Government not to have arbitration. In 1961, it was the nurses who were compelled by the Conservative Government.
  Mr. Carr: That is not true, because those workers were offered arbitration from the beginning, and the matter was finally settled at a figure which, I believe, was 7 per cent. If I am wrong in that, my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West, who had a great deal to do with it at the time, will be able to put the record right when he comes to wind up the debate for this side of the House.
  We conclude from what has gone on hitherto that there is not one bit of solid evidence to suggest that the present policies which have failed so far will lead to better results in the future. The truth is that we have either too much compulsion or not enough. We are getting

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  the worst of all worlds. The fact is that, if wages and prices are artificially controlled for long and held against the inexorable forces of supply and demand, either the dam will burst in an uncontrollable flood or the Government will be forced eventually to supplement price and wage control with some form of control of engagement; in effect, ordering what is to be produced and on what work people are to be employed.
  Sir G. Nabarro: Direction of labour.
  Mr. Carr: Direction of labour in some form or other, as my hon. Friend says.
  Similarly, it is not credible to suggest that the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. have enough power over their members to parcel out each year what the Prime Minister has described as the "national dividend". If they ever acquired such power, which is not likely, in our opinion, we should indeed be in the grip of a corporate State.
  Thus, the present policies of the Government will lead us either to chaos or to compulsion over a still wider field. Moreover, in judging them, we must never forget that much more than economic efficiency is at stake, because we believe that trade unions and employers' organisations independent of the State and exercising the right of free collective bargaining are still the hallmark of liberty in an industrial country. Conversely, trade unions and employers' associations which become agents of the State and instruments of State-organised central planning lead inevitably, however unintended the result may be, to an authoritarian society.
  It is for all those reasons that we believe that a clean break must be made with the Government's present policies and that we are opposing the Bill.
  What, then, is the alternative? Basically, and despite its many past failures and imperfections, we are in no doubt that industrial relations must be conducted by free collective bargaining and that all our policies should be directed to strengthening that system and making it more fool-proof against abuse, rather than doing things which weaken it and are in danger of destroying it.
  Mr. William Molloy: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree
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  that those employers who refuse to enter into any form of negotiation ought to be ashamed of themselves, because they do not satisfy the conditions of his party or of ours?
  Mr. Carr: We have often said that we believe in trade unionism—
  Mr. Molloy: Let us have a straight answer.
  Mr. Carr: We believe that employers should allow trade unionism, just as we believe that trade unionists should not enforce a closed shop policy against other people's will, and that collective bargaining between the two sides should take place. However, if we are to depend on this system of free collective bargaining, it means that in future it will have to be made to operate under the disciplines and incentives of a more effective economic policy and within a modernised legal framework.
  The problem that we have is to balance the equation—
  Mr. Orme rose—
  Mr. Carr: I am anxious to get on with my speech, but, nevertheless, I give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Orme: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by a "legal framework"? Will this mean legal sanctions against trade unions?
  Mr. Carr: If the hon Member will wait a few moments, I shall give him an outline of it. Today is not the day on which to debate it in detail.
  The problem which we have to solve is to balance the equation between productivity and earnings. This can be done either by stimulating increases in productivity, or by repressing increases in earnings, and the Government's chief error is that they have put almost all the weight of their authority and their machinery and policy on the repression of earnings. This simply will not work without even more Draconian powers than they have yet adopted. The Government are as sterile and obstinate as mules when it comes to measures for stimulating productivity.
  As I said in my opening remarks, a high productivity/high earning economy must be the objective, and for the

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  achievement of this we need a comprehensive and mutually supporting range of economic and industrial policies all pressing in the same way. The Government, having set the economic tide running in the opposite direction, have then been trying by exhortation, by compulsion, and by various strange devices, to get everybody to swim in the opposite direction, and it is not surprising, under those circumstances, that at best we stand still.
  If we are to move forward, there are five essential requirements of policy. First, the Government must keep an overall balance between supply and demand in the economy, and particularly a closer balance in each main industrial region between the number of jobs vacant and the number of people available to fill them. This is fundamental to everything else, and it has been the failure to maintain this balance in the past which has been the chief cause of our troubles, the chief cause of extreme deflation and all the agonies that went with it before the war, and the chief cause of chronic inflation since.
  There can be little chance of good industrial discipline, little encouragement to a responsible attitude to work, little incentive for tight and progressive management unless, broadly speaking, employers are able to choose their men, and men can choose their employers, without the balance being tilted too far one way or the other.
  Secondly, there must be a reduction in the growing proportion of the gross national product absorbed by Government expenditure for non-productive purposes, thus leaving more room in the economy for immediate productive growth.
  Thirdly, there must be a reform of our tax system. The principal need is to reduce direct taxation—[HON. MEMBERS: "A profit spree."]—so as to encourage savings, to encourage profitable investment, to encourage risk taking, and to encourage effort by individuals and corporate bodies alike. In addition, it is in our view necessary to remove the selective element in the employment tax, which actually subsidises low productivity in manufacturing industry while arbitrarily adding to the costs of all other
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  activities regardless of their contribution to the national economy.
  The fourth measure which is required is that there must be a continuous sharpening of the edge of competition. This is the answer to hon. Gentlemen opposite who cried, "A profit spree", when I referred to reducing direct taxation, because it must go hand in hand with sharpening the edge of competition. This means a constant readiness to increase the effectiveness of our legislation on monopolies, mergers and restrictive trade practices. It also means positive measures to attack restrictive labour practices, although this is much more difficult to do in any legislative process. The main responsibility for this must lie with management and the most hopeful line of approach is probably through expert productivity bargaining. This is why we believe that productivity bargaining at the plant and factory floor level should become a much more important factor in determining earnings in future than it has been in the past.
  It is also in this field of spotlighting obstacles to growth and encouraging higher earnings geared to productivity that we see a constructive and active role for a body such as the Prices and Incomes Board. I agree with the First Secretary that it has done some useful work. If only we would relieve it of its sterile work its influence and its effect might increase. It should also be one of the main objectives of the National Economic Development Council and the "Little Neddies" to encourage productivity in these ways.
  Fifthly, and here I come to the point about which I was questioned, there should be new legislation to reform the whole structure of our industrial relations system. The principal components of this reform would be, first, to make collective agreements enforceable by both sides. Secondly, to create a new Registrar of Trade Unions whose approval would be required by all associations, whether of employers or employees, wishing to enjoy the status and rights of a trade union. Thirdly, to set up a new industrial court, with divisions throughout the country, available quickly to adjudicate on breaches of collective agreements, to hear claims by individuals against unjust dismissal by their employers, or claims

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  against unfair disciplinary action, whether by employers or by trade unions.
  I know—and this is clear from the intervention a few moments ago—that many people are suspicious of what they call a legalistic approach to what is essentially a matter of human relations. I wonder what the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) thought about the legalistic approach when his right hon. Friend was describing the complications of some of the Clauses of the Bill.
  Mr. Orme: The right hon. Gentleman is advocating far more.
  Mr. Carr: I am advocating something different. Almost every activity in life, except industrial relations, takes place within a legal framework, and in every industrial country except Britain industrial relations take place within a legal framework. In practice a legal framework is a help, not a handicap, to sensible and honourable voluntary relationships because such a framework creates a climate which encourages more thoughtful and responsible action by both parties to the bargain.
  Let us consider this question of the enforceability of collective agreements. As I said, as far as I know Britain is the only industrial country in the world in which they cannot be enforced, and while our record may be better than that of some other countries in terms of the total number of working days lost through strikes, our record is worse when measured in terms of the number of strikes. Moreover, we have to face the fact that about 90 per cent. of all strikes which occur in Britain are unofficial, in the sense that they contravene union rules and the majority of these are also unconstitutional, in the sense that they are in breach of collective agreements.
  It is against that background, and against the need for collective agreements to include more items which can have a positive and influential effect on increasing economic efficiency as well as industrial peace, that the case for the enforceability of collective agreements is unanswerable.
  Mr. Orme: The right hon. Gentleman has outlined a basis of legal development which is quite fantastic. About 35,000 workers have been involved in the trouble with which the Labour Govern-
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  ment have been faced during the last 12 months. What does what the right hon. Gentleman is saying mean in terms of trying to enforce legal action in any dispute that takes place, many of which become official at a later date?
  Mr. Carr: I suggest to the hon. Gentleman and to other hon. Members who are trade unionists, and who are fearful of new legislation of this kind, that they should consider the position of their fellow trade unionists in other countries. They all work within a similar legal framework. I believe that they have all come to find it a strength to their movement and their aims, not a weakness, and they do not live perpetually in the law courts. This is a discipline and framework within which every other activity of life is conducted, and which we would not dream of being without.
  The legislation which we propose will impose new obligations and responsibilities just as much upon employers as upon trade unions. It is in no sense anti-trade union. In those countries where this sort of arrangement is in force trade unions find that they make just as much use of it, and that it is of just as much strength to them as to the employers.
  Finally, I stress that not one of the five main policies about which I have been talking will do the job on its own. They all stand together as a comprehensive package. The proper balance between supply and demand—especially for labour in each industrial region; the holding back of Government expenditure; the reform of the tax system; the sharpening of the edge of competition, including the attack on all restrictive practices, and the reform of the structure of our system of industrial relations—all these must be applied together and with persistence. Then we shall get the economic tide running with us instead of against us. Then we shall be both liberating market forces and making use of them and harnessing them to the public interest.
  In such a climate supplementary machinery can play a useful part in helping us to achieve our objectives. In such a climate there is a valuable function for the National Economic Development Council as an independent forum outside the Government, in which the Government, both sides of industry and economists are made to knock their heads

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  together and to have their thinking and their future actions influenced by exposure to all the facts of the nation's situation and to points of view other than their own.
  Similarly, in such a climate a body such as the Prices and Incomes Board can be useful, in exposing to the public gaze the full facts behind major wage claims, and in making sure that the public interest as well as the interests of the parties involved is clearly known and stated. It might also be useful for there to be a delay in prosecuting a claim long enough to enable the Board to make its inquiry. Likewise, in such a climate the Government themselves could and should state clearly their view of what the national interest requires. In such a climate the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. could play a positive educative rôle in influencing their members.
  But these are all auxiliary devices, operating at the margin of the problem. They cannot be prime movers in determining income levels. They can be useful minor aids to a Government's overall policy but they are no substitute for such a policy, as the Government have been trying to make them for the last two years and especially the last year. It is impossible to stop the onrush of inflation by putting Mr. Aubrey Jones and his Board in its path, to hold up their hands like policemen on point duty. Either they will be run down, as they were until July of last year, or the Government will be driven to take powers of compulsion, as they were last summer and as they will be again. The underlying and fundamental requirement is to get the basic economic and industrial policy right. The present Government's policy is fundamentally wrong and must be changed. That is why the Bill is a vain hope, bred by desperation out of past failure.
  5.33 p.m.
  Mr. James Tinn: Unlike the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), I approach the Bill from the point of view of a trade unionist, and, in particular, a trade union Member of Parliament. Last year, at the annual conferences of my union, I strongly supported the Government's policy on prices and incomes and what is now the Prices
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  and Incomes Act—including Part IV, about which many trade unionists understandably had reservations.
  My task—and no doubt that of other trade union Members—in putting across the case to my comrades was made considerably easier by the consistent and down-to-earth advocacy of the present Foreign Secretary, who was then First Secretary. My union wholeheartedly supported the Government's policy at that time.
  Indeed, the National Union of Blast Furnacemen has been second to none throughout in its support of the Government in this connection. This fact tended to heighten the dilemma in which I, together with many other trade union Members of Parliament, found myself earlier this year. It was a classical dilemma, with two horns. The first was Part IV of the Act, about which we felt most doubt, and which it was rumoured would be extended. Many of us had conveyed to our union comrades the assurances given to us that such an extension was not contemplated.
  When it was foreshadowed that the Government intended to continue to extend Part IV many of us felt that we had been put in a very difficult position. We took all the legitimate measures that were open to us to impress upon the Government the strength and depth of our feelings and the concern which not only we, but trade unionists generally felt at the prospect that this part of the Bill would be extended.
  I want to make it quite clear that my union brought no pressure to bear upon me in this matter. I have not had one communication from it urging me to take the action that I took.
  Mr. James Hamilton: Is it not the case that no trade unions bring pressure to bear upon any Member, because they have no control over Members of Parliament?
  Mr. Tinn: I agree. That is the point that I was making. I am glad to have my hon. Friend's corroboration. It is a point which should be made clear.
  The Government have honoured their undertaking, which we passed on to our members, that Part IV should not be extended. That entitles the Government

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  to our support. In our view, it removes a massive obstacle that many of us saw in the way of our support for the Bill. The Government's good faith in this matter is established.
  But I want to refer to a more positive and compelling argument for the Government's policy on prices and incomes. First, the Trades Union Congress itself has often gone on record as accepting the necessity for an incomes policy. The difficulty arises from the fact that the T.U.C. does not believe that the voluntary system can be usefully assisted by legislation involving compulsion, for certain very arguable reasons.
  Yet, on the contrary, I believe that without legislation there would be serious difficulties for the trade unions themselves. In particular, the incomes policy would tend to apply only to those people who were members of trades unions and, even more narrowly, to those members whose unions operated the voluntary system. Neither of those effects would be fair. It would be grossly unfair for non-unionists to escape the voluntary discipline of the unionists. It would not merely be unfair that the co-operating union members should be at a disadvantage compared with the members of the non-co-operative or maverick unions, but very dangerous to those unions and those trade union leaders who loyally tried to operate the voluntary system. Therefore, with all respect, I differ from the General Secretary of the T.U.C. I believe that this legislation buttresses the voluntary system.
  There would be no prospect of the Measure weakening or threatening the unions unless the provisions for making Orders were to be abused—if the Orders were made too frequently, without due consideration and with only nominal consultation—but the experience of the last few months has shown again the Government's good faith. We have no evidence to support any accusation that the Government cannot be trusted in this connection, and no reason whatsoever for supposing that they will abuse their powers.
  Sir Edward Brown: I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's line of argument. This debate is taking place before the end of July. What will be the attitude of the unions at the end of July,
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  when Part IV of the Act finishes and this Bill is substituted? Will there not be a declaration of war by the unions over priorities to get their claims through the pipeline?
  Mr. Tinn: I am glad to be able to reassure the hon. Gentleman. The one certain thing is that there will be no declaration of war. Those of us who think that this is a good Bill may have been a little hurt by Mr. Woodcock's dismissal of it as a "bauble", but there was no indication of a future declaration of war. It is interesting to recall, on the evidence of Mr. Woodcock himself, that in 1965 the T.U.C. was prepared to support a Measure, which never went further, very similar to this one. There is no substance in the hon. Gentleman's fears.
  Mr. James Hamilton: Following my hon. Friend's line, it is only fair to say that by a very large majority the trade unions accepted a voluntary policy, fully aware that the Government were to introduce this legislation. I thought that my hon. Friend's intention was to tell the House that since the voluntary system was introduced 43 unions have made applications to the T.U.C.. Of those applications, 20 have been rejected, and the unions have accepted the situation.
  Mr. Tinn: It is always very helpful to have an hon. Friend who fills in any gaps there may be in one's contribution.
  One argument that is often used, and used, I believe, dishonestly—even though the dishonesty may be unintentional—may be summed up as the "low-paid worker" argument. It is the low-paid worker, we are told, who has suffered from the standstill. No doubt he has suffered relatively more than has the higher-paid worker, but the argument is dishonest because the fact is that that man suffers much more in any free-for-all expansion of wages.
  I have been to many branch meetings of my union, and have found that while in general conversation one always finds a readiness to support the low-paid worker, to sympathise with him and to stress the urgency of his needs, when it comes to deciding on a wage claim there is a rather different story. One still finds the readiness to propose an increase for the low-paid worker, but no readiness

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  to accept any consequential narrowing of the differential. One finds an insistence on the differential being maintained. That hoists up wages generally and, inevitably, hoists up prices. It amounts to little more than a confidence trick on the low-paid worker, since all his anticipated rise is swallowed up in later price increases.
  That being so, I should have thought that the low-paid worker could be best protected, could, perhaps, only be protected, in the context of a wages policy—and we may not yet have discovered the best policy; I do not pretend that we have—which could be deliberately operated in his favour, with an easing of his position as one of the principles of its operation.
  I do not need to detain the House further, but I want to affirm what I believe to be the truth of the matter. However vocal and strong the opposition might seem, I believe that the support of the great majority of trade unions for the prices and incomes policy still remains, although it must be admitted that it has taken some knocks because of a feeling—only partly justified, but partly justified, nevertheless—that the prices side has not operated as firmly as the incomes side. Nevertheless, those trade unionists see it as a step towards a more deliberately planned economy in which some of the uncertainties and hazards, such as unemployment and short time, can be removed, together with some of the injustices and inequities.
  For those reasons, I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I thought that the Minister tried to escape as far and as fast as possible from the compulsion that has surrounded his and the Government's policy during the last few months. He made every effort to stress the value of the voluntary system, and spoke about the limitation of powers contained in the Bill. When we last had a Second Reading debate on a Prices and Incomes Bill we did not have the kind of compulsion that ultimately faced us when Part IV of that Measure was introduced in Committee. Then, when we had dealt with
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  the Bill in those marathon sittings, we were told that the compulsion would last for only a year and that Part II would then come into effect. As it then stood, Part II was not nearly so onerous—indeed, I did not vote against it—as is the Bill with which we are now faced.
  I am sorry that the cooling-off period has been extended and that because of this a measure of compulsion has been introduced again in this Bill. In the very interesting debates we had on Second Reading and in Committee on last year's Bill much was said from both sides about collective bargaining and the need to support it. In view of the interest I have taken in this subject over the years, I should be the last to decry collective bargaining. We should support and encourage it.
  However, there has been much pretence about collective bargaining. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that it has worked with perfection in recent years. During the period of shortage of labour which we have been in, collective bargaining in many cases has weakened the strength of employer. From the trade union point of view, I suppose that this is an advantage. It has not required much to weaken some employers, who were weak from the start. Collective bargaining in this context led to a situation in which wages and prices began to chase each other, to the detriment both of the consumer and the balance of payments. Collective bargaining as we have known it in recent years has also meant that productivity has often been a meaningless irrelevance.
  On Second Reading and in Committee last year we had with us the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union. He was then the right hon. Member for Nuneaton, Mr. Frank Cousins. We miss him today. He made a valuable contribution, not only in those debates, but otherwise in the House. I was disappointed when he left us. From the point of view of the House of Commons and of trade unions, I thought that Mr. Cousins made a mistake in leaving us. I think that his union made a bigger mistake in pressurising him to leave the House, because the House needs people who are still active trade unionists, just as we want people who are still active industrialists. It is no good the House depending upon trade

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  unionists and industrialists who have long ceased to participate in trade union or industrial activities.
  Mr. Trevor Park: Is not that remark, coming from that side of the House, somewhat hypocritical? When the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union was a Member of the House there was continual criticism of him by the Opposition because he remained secretary of the union. The Opposition cannot have it both ways.
  Mr. Lewis: But he could still have been active in his union without being its full-time paid secretary. There is a great value in having in the House someone who is actively connected with his union. However, I do not want to get on to that track. I was leading up to quote this passage from the speech Mr. Cousins made on Second Reading:
  "… everybody favours an incomes policy."
  That was massive, coming from the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union, in view of the line he took on that Bill.
  Mr. Cousins went on:
  "Most people favour an incomes policy provided that it does not apply to them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1966; Vol. 731, cc. 1791–92.]
  And he then proceeded to say that he wanted no part of an incomes policy. We know that that was because while he and many others were prepared to have an incomes policy inflicted upon others, they did not want it to affect their own members.
  The difficulty about so much of the collective bargaining in the last few years, both when we were in office and under the Labour Government, has been that collective bargaining has largely been a case of, "Let us collect". Without some form of incomes policy, without some form of restraint, both Labour and Tory Governments have concluded that the only other alternatives are worse—worse for the economy, worse for industry, worse for the country.
  One of the alternatives to an incomes policy is large-scale unemployment, not 500,000, but double that number. The other alternative is inflation, which gradually erodes the currency. Reasonably full employment, not over-full em-
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  ployment, is the most valuable thing that the nation can have. I believe this, because I was there in the days before the war when we had such utter deflation that the 2 million unemployed created great social problems: industry was running down and the country was weakened economically. It also created a situation in families which I had experience of and which I do not want to see return.
  I do not want high unemployment. I do not think that inflation is an alternative, either, because the first thing that it does is to bankrupt the Treasury. After it has bankrupted the Treasury and then the country, we are back into high unemployment again. Since, in such circumstances, we have not the resources to employ people, we can neither export nor prime the pump on the home market. So, whichever party is in power, we are back to seeking some sort of incomes policy.
  I believe that the National Board for Prices and Incomes has a part to play. I have said this consistently over the last year or two. It must be given a part to play in a proper climate, a climate in which the economy is not over-heated, a climate in which there is a certain amount of slack in the labour market. On this there must be agreement between the Government, employers and the unions, and they must sensibly try to secure that economic climate, which is a difficult operation and which is certainly not an exact science.
  The National Board for Prices and Incomes must have a certain amount of power; it must have a means by which it can exercise restraint. Therefore, I supported the three-month waiting period, and I still do. I am sorry that it has had to be extended to seven months. The fact that this has been necessary is a clear indication of the failure of the Government's economic policy as a whole.
  Mr. John Biffen: My hon. Friend has no objection in principle, I gather, to the powers of delay. What will send him into the Lobby against the Bill tonight when the power of delay is for six months, whereas when it was three months last year he was in favour of it?
  Mr. Lewis: If my hon. Friend will wait for a few minutes, I shall come to that.
  The previous First Secretary of State said this on the Second Reading of last year's Bill:
  "the Bill enables"—
  the Government—
  "to require that there shall be a standstill on the proposal for a maximum of three months."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1966; Vol. 731, c. 1756.]
  That was a promise. It has been broken. There has been a change of Ministers, so we have a change of policy. The Government's policy is collective, so they do not get away with changing policy on the basis that there is a new Minister. We have musical chairs and we have a change of tune. This was a firm policy stated by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, but the present First Secretary of State extends the period to seven months under the Bill.
  The General Secretary of the T.U.C., commenting on the Bill, said that he thought that it was innocuous, by which he meant either that it will not work and, therefore, does not matter, or that it will work and yet will have no effect. In my view, the extension of the period to seven months—this is where I come to my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen)—makes the Bill anything but innocuous. The extension is sufficient to bring a certain amount of odium on the Board. Whereas there might have been criticisms about a delay of three months, there will be a good deal of heavier criticism directed against the Board on the seven months' period. This could wreck the influence of the Board. Seven months gives the impression of an extension of the ban, an extension of Part IV of the Act. I do not believe that the country is in favour of extending Part IV, and I think that it is getting "fed up" with bans.
  If the economy had been right, if, after a certain amount of deflation in the last year or 18 months, the economy had now been expanding, the cooling-off period of three months would have been useful. But, in doubling the period, the Government have extended the period of restriction on the collective bargaining system, making it more difficult to have productivity deals and making growth in
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  the economy over the next six or seven months more difficult.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry has always been against a prices and incomes policy. He has been as consistent on his side as I have been on mine. But, on 5th June, the Daily Telegraph published an article by him in which, judging from his past comments, my hon. Friend made some surprising observations. In this article, he said that the Prices and Incomes Board had made a greater impact than the N.E.D.C.
  Mr. Biffen: That was not saying much.
  Mr. Lewis: It is generally accepted that the N.E.D.C. has made a good contribution towards improvements in productivity and so forth. If proposition No. 1 does not now appeal to my hon. Friend as being much of an advance, perhaps he will think better of his proposition No. 2. He talked of the success of the Board and its Chairman, and he then went on to say—I must be fair to him and point out, in fairness, that that was at the beginning of his article; his later comments followed a harder line—that the Board was going downhill because it was getting into the control of the Government.
  I had always thought that my hon. Friend had believed that the Board was in the control of the Government anyway. Whatever he may say in a subsequent speech today, it seems that my hon. Friend is, nevertheless, now coming closer to those of us who agree that a prices and incomes policy is necessary. My right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), for the first time this afternoon, said at the Opposition Dispatch Box that he thought that a standstill period was valuable
  I believe that the Prices and Incomes Board has a rôle to play today and will have a rôle to play when we return to office—and I am much more optimistic about that, of course, than the First Secretary of State, who said that it would be a long time before we got back. I believe that the independent reports of the Board are valuable. I see the Board as a form of economic or industrial ombudsman. I want it to remain independent of the Government, and this, again, is why I am disappointed that the period is to be extended. I want the

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  Board to be independent of the Government, as I want it to be independent of all sections of industry, because in this way it can provide a means by which public opinion can be enlightened through its reports.
  In my view, a three months' period can do several valuable things. It can enable the Board to investigate and to establish whether a case is good or bad. It can enable the country to appreciate what the case is, because the Board is independent, and it can enable the country, also, to see whether its reports are meaningful. Second, by the three months' period, public opinion can be influenced, the Government can be influenced, and both sides of industry can be influenced through the Board's reports.
  Sir E. Brown: My hon. Friend is making the case for the authority of the Board. What we are discussing now is the content of the Bill, which limits the powers of the Prices and Incomes Board. My hon. Friend is moving nearer to us now. It is interference by the Government that we oppose.
  Mr. Lewis: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. We are all moving into the middle. What happens in the House of Commons is that, on this side, someone on the extreme right comes into the middle when he gets into the Government. On the other side of the House, someone on the extreme left comes into the middle when he reaches the Government Front Bench. Of course, those of us who are always in the middle get nowhere.
  The truth is that a prices and incomes policy in which a Prices and Incomes Board has a role to play has now been accepted by the party opposite, although we first thought of it. Hon. Members will recall that the N.I.C., which we started but which was destroyed by criticism from hon. Members opposite and from the unions, was the spark which lit up this policy.
  I believe that the situation would have been improved by the absence of the Bill. It would have been better if we had depended on Part II of the old Act. The Government must be very unsure of their economic policy if they have to introduce this Bill. Whether there will be as interesting a debate in Committee on this Bill as there was on the last I cannot say. But I am sure that something
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  from the last Measure and from this will remain a permanent part of our industrial scene from now on, because it will be required and it has a contribution to make.
  At the end of the day, our economic problems will not be solved by having a prices and incomes policy and a Prices and Incomes Board alone. Our criticism of the party opposite should be not only on the present question, but on the broader issues on which my right hon. Friend based much of his speech—criticism of their economic policy, of their taxation policy and their failure to secure growth—in short, the Government's general economic policy. It is that which makes their prices and incomes policy difficult to operate. Because we would deal with the economic policy of the country as a whole far better than it has been dealt with during the past year or two, we would be able to utilise a Prices and Incomes Board and a prices and incomes policy far more effectively and beneficially than has been done by the present Government.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Doig: I welcome this opportunity to discuss the second Prices and Incomes Bill. Unlike some previous speakers I should be happy if, at some time in the future, we discuss a Prices and Incomes (No. 10) Bill. That is because, first, I believe in a prices and incomes policy, and, secondly, I also believe that even this one is far from perfect.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept that what I have to say is meant as constructive criticism. I believe that the biggest failing so far has been that there has been too much emphasis on incomes and not enough on prices. The Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission has pointed out that certain products are priced too highly, but this comes to light only because the firm that manufactures and markets them happens to have a monopoly. We recently had the examples of colour films and soap powders, to take but two, where the Commission was able to show, because a monopoly existed, that prices were being charged in excess of what was fair and reasonable.
  Through keen competition we have had further examples of excessive price charging. For petrol and certain brands of

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  coffee there have been substantial price reductions as a result of keen competition. But it would be wrong to conclude that the only people who charge excessively are those who have monopolies or are subject to keen competition. There is a whole lot of other firms manufacturing a whole range of other products which also charge excessive prices, that is, prices beyond what would give them a fair return for their share in producing the commodities concerned.
  My criticism of the Prices and Incomes Board is, first, that it has not paid enough attention to prices. What prices have been investigated by the Board? We have had all sorts of reports about investigations into wage increases and salaries, but we have heard very little about investigations into prices. Last year, I brought to the attention of the Department of Economic Affairs the fact that some boarding-house keepers in London who were responsible for maintaining the outside of their buildings in the same state of repair as when they took them, who were responsible for all the inside repairs, for insurance—in fact, for everything—had suddenly had an increase of 200 per cent. in their rent. It was totally unjustified. There was not even justification for a 2 per cent. increase, let alone 200 per cent.
  I sent the Department facts and figures, with a list of the people involved. But the Department did not investigate the matter, and did not send it to the Prices and Incomes Board as I had asked. The answer I got was that because this affected only one small part of London—I admit that that was all the evidence that I had—it was not worthy of its investigation. But if there is a wage increase affecting only one small industry in London it will investigate that. It therefore seems to me that the policy is not operating fairly.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is not the moral that my hon. Friend should have told these dear ladies to join a trade union, when they, too, could have been persecuted?
  Mr. Doig: I shall not be sidetracked here.
  I am making a point which I want to keep clearly in hon. Members' minds. That is that the Department did not give
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  the same investigation to prices and increases in prices as to increases in income. But the increase to those boarding-house keepers, who supply what is known as a bed and breakfast service, put a substantial increase on the cost of living of many workers who live in those establishments. If that increase had been passed on in some other way, or they had asked for an increase in their wages to pay for it, there would have been an inquiry. But there is no inquiry as long as the increase is only on them. It would not have been so bad if there had been any justification, but there was none for that increase.
  The fact is that prices are still going up, and that is not denied by either side. What are the Government doing about it? Quite honestly, they are doing very little. From time to time we have new inventions, new production methods that make price decreases possible. But we rarely hear of a reduction in price except in the two categories I have already mentioned.
  The right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) referred to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and his statement at one time that he would not support keeping workers at the position they were in financially at any particular point of time. I imagine that that statement would be supported by every Member on this side of the House. We want to improve the workers' standard of living. We do not want to keep it where it is or to reduce it.
  There are two ways in which it can be improved. One is that we can reduce prices and keep wages as they are, with certain minor modifications to correct anomalies. The alternative is that we can allow prices to rise and then agitate through the trade unions and other bodies for higher wages. Of these two ways it seems to me that by far the fairest is to have a strict control over prices, in which case everybody benefits, including those on fixed incomes, pensioners and everybody else, as well as the workers. If we do not have that and resort to the old method it is obvious that somebody gets hurt.
  The country that I come from, Scotland, is one of the places that gets hurt because traditionally we have been lower paid than the people down here. There

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  are other parts of Britain in the same boat, but when one compares the average wage of workers in Scotland with the average worker's wage in London there is no doubt that the Scottish worker suffers because of this, and it is perhaps one of the reasons why I support this policy.
  How can we more strictly control prices? It can be done fairly easily. I advocate setting up a Government costing department. Every firm of any size in the country today has a costing department which works out the cost of producing its products. It works out the cost of ingredients, adds so much for overheads and a percentage for a fair margin of profit, and a price is arrived at. Very often the price is then subject to the approval of the managing director; in many cases he adds on a amount because the market can stand a higher price, and so an excessive price occurs from time to time for many commodities. There is no machinery at present for stopping this.
  We must, therefore, introduce an element which will provide such machinery. I believe that the only way to do it is by a Government costing department. It need only be a very small department because the strange thing is that the commercial firms are frightened of adverse publicity of this kind. Because they are frightened of it we have only to investigate one or two items and the deterrent effect on the others will be considerable and far-reaching, giving a very large return for a very small outlay.
  The second point is that we are repeatedly urged by whichever party is the Government that we should have more savings, that we should encourage people to save money. But in the situation that has existed all through my lifetime the people who save money by putting in in banks are fools for the simple reason that its purchasing power, even with the interest added on, becomes less after a number of years than when they first put it in. Therefore, there is no incentive for savings in the set-up that has existed for so long. If we want to encourage savings there must be strict control over prices so that money saved grows, not merely in the number of £s people have at the end of a certain time, but in the purchasing power of it. Intel-
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  ligent people in the past invested their money not in savings banks or government defence bonds, but in buildings, machinery and companies, and they made money. The others have lost money because after 10 years or so their so-called savings buy less than the money originally invested.
  Time and again in these debates we are urged that productivity should decide increases in wages and profits. What about those who are unlucky enough to work in service industries? Things are becoming so bad that the only way to keep bus drivers and others employed in service trades is either to import foreigners to do these jobs or, when the service becomes in danger of collapsing, to agree to give large increases to attract people back to run the trains and buses. Those employed in service industries will always fall behind if we continue with this productivity principle. The only answer is to have stricter control from the other side—on prices.
  Few people wish to return to the old free-for-all situation. After all, anarchy in wages and prices is as bad as anything else. The answer is to have some control. Either we increase wages and prices or we control wages and take steps to reduce prices. The latter is by far the best, not only for workers but for all sections of the community. I urge the Government carefully to consider this point and to be prepared in the future to control prices to a greater degree. If they do this they will recover their supporters not only in this House but throughout the country.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: The hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) testified eloquently to the failure of his Government's prices policy. When he went on to advocate a national pricing system based on costs, plus a reasonable margin of profit, he was advocating something which, I believe, would lead to much higher price levels in many sectors of the economy. I know many manufacturers who would be delighted with any policy which enabled them to have a reasonable margin of profit on top of their ascertained costs. Just because of the fears I have of the C.B.I. as a body, which operates largely on the theory of recovering costs plus

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  a reasonable margin of profit, I am sceptical of the approach of the Government towards prices generally.
  When dealing with the wages and salaries part of the Bill the First Secretary said that he was introducing an incomes policy which would be both voluntary and effective. I agree that effectiveness is even more important to a voluntary policy than to a policy which is fully backed by statute. If a statutory policy proves ineffective it is always open to the Government—and this often happens—to say later, "The muddle is not due to any failure of principle but simply because the statute needs mending and repairing, and then we will be back on course". But a defeat for a voluntary policy would be a defeat for the whole principle of voluntaryism. The fear of my hon. Friends in the Liberal Party is that in a year from now we may be back here with Ministers saying, in terms of infinite regret, that the voluntaryism, which they had nobly and optimistically tried, had failed; and they would then be inviting the House to go back to policies of strict compulsion.
  The Liberal Party is not seriously opposed to the machinery which the Bill embodies; the use of the Prices and Incomes Board accompanied by some powers of delay. At Report stage of what will soon be known as the "Prices and Incomes (No. 1) Act", in August of last year, my Liberal hon. Friends divided the House on an Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) that there should be a period of one month added to the delaying powers in Part II after the Prices Board had reported so that there could be proper public consideration of the findings of the Board. It is interesting to note that, when replying for the Government, the Parliamentary Secretary said:
  "Four months is quite a long time and, after discussions with the C.B.I. and T.U.C., we have felt that it would be unreasonable to seek to prolong the statutory delay beyond the four-month period."
  Later, he went on:
  "… I would suggest that it is better left as it is, especially as we are still talking of a voluntary system."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th August, 1966; Vol. 733, c. 1523–4.]
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  Evidently there has since been some conversion on the Government side. The Liberal objection is not to the machinery, which we believe basically to be a quite civilised procedure—the warning and delay and opportunity for public consideration after expert and independent report—but our concern is that if industry is to be put through the rigours of this machinery, there should be some permanent improvement in the whole structure of pay settlements to show at the end of the day, and of that possibility we see no sign at all. We fear, rather, that the Bill will be creating a machine that will simply plough the sand and leave no result that will be more than temporary and without real significance, particularly in that there is no sign—in the speeches of Ministers, the White Paper of April of this year or any other Government pronouncement—that the Government intend to tackle the basic structure of pay negotiation.
  The First Secretary spoke earlier of ascertaining the estimated rate of growth in the economy to discover what was the minimum increase that could be given to all workers. How much more we should have preferred him to say that they wanted to discover the minimum that could be given to those who are themselves on the minimum rate of pay and that, for the rest, there should be no question of a national, across-the-board increase but that improvements should be negotiated in each case at the place of work.
  There has been no improvement and no change in thinking since April, 1965—how much should have been learnt since then—in the criteria which are handed down by the Government to the Prices and Incomes Board. We still have the same circular reasoning—that, in effect, a wage settlement which is in the national interest is something which is in the national interest; with no definition of what the national interest really is.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Apart from the possibility of the Liberal Party being returned to power, would the hon. Gentleman say how he thinks one might define the national interest?
  Mr. Wainwright: As I suspect the hon. Gentleman knows, my whole case is that the idea of a single national interest in these matters is a myth and that what we must talk about is the infinite variation,

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  the Persian carpet, of different decisions relating to different people in different circumstances. Again, in the criteria the Government have given to the Prices and Incomes Board, there is the extraordinarily threadbare proposition that
  "… where there is general recognition that existing wage and salary levels are too low to maintain a reasonable standard of living."
  If that had been the criterion for wage settlements down the ages we would still be pursuing the most primitive employments of man.
  We Liberals would like to see the machinery—reasonable machinery, by and large—embodied in the Bill used to shift the whole emphasis of pay settlements from these inflationary, nationwide, across-the-board settlements to a system of pay negotiation based mainly on the place of work. That has never been better defined than in a recent booklet by Miss Seear, Reader in Personnel Management at the London School of Economics, in which she stated:
  "The place of work, not the headquarters office, is the place that matters. For it is here, and here along, that the work is done, the profits earned, the experiments made, the wages paid, the disputes flare up, the settlements are reached. Ultimately the only safeguard lies in the quality of the people who grapple with the innumerable trials and tribulations inevitable where many men are gathered together to do a job of work."
  Until the Government show that they intend to use this machinery for a really radical change in their whole approach to pay settlements in this country, my hon. Friends and I will feel obliged to oppose this legislation.
  6.32 p.m.
  Mr. John Horner: Nobody knows whether the Government's incomes policy has worked. Last year, for the first time in about 25 years, average earnings in industry fell. That happened not as a result of the Government's incomes policy alone but as a result of a series of measures. The July measures ensured that average earnings in industry would fall. Unemployment rose, productivity fell and overtime fell. Bearing this in mind, we cannot, when considering this new Bill, judge the efficacy or otherwise of the Government's incomes policy.
  References have been made to the T.U.C.'s attitude and I regret that my right hon. Friend the First Secretary is not
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  here, because it seemed to me—and I say this I hope not unfairly—that he did not accurately state the T.U.C.'s view towards both this Measure and the activation of Part II of the earlier Act. The T.U.C. is opposed to it. At the March conference of the T.U.C. there was almost unanimous opposition to the activation of Part II, and the House is entitled to know the philosophy underlying the attitude of the T.U.C. towards this legislation and the earlier Measure. A document which the T.U.C. General Council placed before the Conference of Executive Committees stated:
  "The success of such a policy"—
  the incomes policy
  "cannot be judged by changes in costs from one year to another. There are too many variables in the situation for that".
  There have certainly been some variables in the last year.
  "Success or failure, particularly in relation to achievement of the objectives to which trade unionists attach priority, can only be measured over a lengthy period. The Government may point to short-run results in terms of the limitation or even prevention of particular increases in incomes. If, however, those results are purchased at the price of productivity, or, even worse, at the price of disillusionment and cynicism, they are poor rewards for a fleeting gain."
  What worries me about the Bill is that it is an attempt to get another fleeting gain. Indeed, on the basis of the Government's own reasoning, I do not see the purpose underlying the Bill. I regret that the Government have seen fit to introduce it. On the Government's own showing, what they are likely to get is the minimum of effectiveness with the maximum of irritation.
  It is because I am one of those on this side of the House attached to the philosophy and reasoning set out by the T.U.C. in the document I have quoted that I am concerned that the effect of the Bill may well impinge on and impair the efforts of the General Council to introduce the sort of incomes policy which, in the long run, is the only one which can work in our democratic society. We have been reminded that Mr. George Woodcock referred to the Bill as a "bauble", a plaything, an irrelevancy. He is responsible for what he says. We in this House are responsible for what we say and for any action we take in helping to put through a piece of legislation which I for one find obnoxious.

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  It may be that the Bill until activated remains a dead letter. It is the potential powers that we are giving to the Government which concern me. My objections to the Bill are essentially those I tried to set out with some of my hon. Friends in our earlier debates, when we questioned the rightness and wisdom of the Government seeking to intervene in the processes of collective bargaining by legislation.
  I do not believe that there is anything sacrosanct in the machinery of collective bargaining. There is nothing in it so sacred that it should not be remedied if it be at fault, and clearly there is a good deal at fault in the processes of collective bargaining today. But the way in which those limitations should be removed and the processes improved is not by legislation. I think that is the view of the Government themselves, at least in so far as we have heard my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour speak from time to time when he has abhorred the whole idea of getting the courts involved in the processes of industrial bargaining.
  But when we try to find our way through the intricacies of this Bill, when we see how it tries to make up the defects of the 1966 Act to try to remedy the legal deficiencies seen in that Act, we seem to be weaving around ourselves a cocoon of further legislation. The obnoxious consequences of the original Act are fortified and extended in the Bill and my arguments against them remain the same. I shall not bore the House by repeating them.
  It is the injustices and the inequalities which must, of necessity, concern us when the Government seek to introduce legislation dealing with wage settlements. The Government have sought to lift incomes policy to a rôle where at times in this last year it has seemed that their whole economic strategy has become dependant on their success or otherwise in being able to prevent a particular small group from getting a wage increase. We have been told that no more than 38,000 people have been affected by the Orders made under the Act. We have had to go through these sad occasions of hearing arguments as to why a small section of people should not receive a rise in pay. We have heard from the Government how
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  their economic policy was in danger of being eroded by a small group getting a rise.
  The whole thing has become a farce. That is what Mr. Woodcock and his colleagues meant when they said that if one judges an incomes policy by the fact that one has been able to stop a particular wage increase, one is running the risk of gaining a victory at the price of disillusionment and cynicism.
  The Government must recognise that, whatever might be the guarded phrases used by one or two leaders of the T.U.C., there is hardly a trade union on record which supports the prosecution of the policy of the Government set out in this Bill. They are wholeheartedly opposed to it. I do not see what the Government think they can get out of it. I do not see the special nature of extending a four-months' pause to a seven-months' pause.
  There was no gift of vision in what some of us said last July. It was my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister himself who said that once one puts a freeze on wages one is building up a host of consequential problems difficult to solve. It may well be that the Government, in the extension of the pause from four to seven months, have heeded those writers of editorials who have said that there can be no going back to the freedom of wage fixing after the period of the freeze. I believe that the T.U.C. is right and that we shall get disillusionment and cynicism. I am perfectly certain that we will get the minimum of effectiveness with the maximum of irritation.
  In the Bill the Government are compounding the errors they made in the Act. They are doing it in a different set of circumstances. This is my main charge against them. The circumstances are different from those of January last year. We were told then that the Act was necessary for otherwise there would be an extension of unemployment. We are considering this present Bill when unemployment has been extended. We are considering it not in the atmosphere of eighteen months ago, when there were various arguments inside the T.U.C. and the unions generally about the reaction to the Government's proposals. We are considering it in different circumstances.
  The T.U.C. and the trade union movement are giving deep thought to and are

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  engaged in a revision of deeply held convictions and in trying to establish the framework of a voluntary system of incomes policy. My fear is that, perhaps unwittingly, the Government may take a step, once given the power, which will result in the extension of disillusionment and cynicism to such a degree that the T.U.C.'s own scheme may suffer. That would be a great tragedy.
  As an example, I quote the case of my own union. This is a union of men who cannot strike, so no one need fear that there will be a withdrawal of labour. Firemen have their wages determined by a Whitley Council. That Whitley Council has been engaged over the years in seeking to revise the basic structure of firemen's salaries. At 11 o'clock on 21st July last year, it was to have come to an agreement following many months of intensive negotiations. At 5 o'clock on 20th July, it was told that everything was off because a wage freeze had been imposed.
  At Christmas time, the firemen's case was referred to the Prices and Incomes Board. Although they had an agreement as to date, which would have have been 1st August, they had no final agreement as to sum and they were therefore caught up in the turmoils of legislation. There was to be no actual increase until 1st July. So when we hear that the six-months' pause was fair because it applied to everyone, I remind the House that, for the firemen, it was an eleven-months' pause.
  But that was the law. However wrong one might feel it to be, nothing could be done. Reference was made to the Prices and Incomes Board at Christmas. The annual conference of the union was due in May, but could not be held. There were 148 resolutions on pay alone on the agenda but the Board had not reported, and to hold an annual conference of firemen at a time when the Board's report had not been made would have been asking for trouble. So, for the first time in the fifty-year history of the union—it celebrates its jubilee next year—the annual conference had to be postponed.
  Finally, the report came out. I pay tribute to what Aubrey Jones and the Board have done in other directions. But the mountain has been in labour and has produced a mouse which cannot even
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  squeak. All that would have been settled at 11 o'clock on 21st July last year—eighteen hours after the Prime Minister sat down—is given official blessing in the report. "You were on the right lines", says the Board. "What a pity you had to wait eleven months before you get it".
  There was a productivity proposal. Everyone is talking about productivity. My union is concerned about it. The only way one can get it in the fire service is by seeing that firemen work longer hours. The relationship between manpower and duty systems is clear. My union is prepared to negotiate on that. The Board said, "You are on the right lines. This is an excellent idea". But then it produced a report which makes it almost unworkable.
  I refer to this not in order to prosecute the point of view of those men with whom I have spent most of my working life. I do not regard this as necessarily a typical example of what the unions have had to endure over the last eleven months. When we are being asked to consider the mechanics—this Bill is the mechanical and legal framework of implementing a policy of the Government—we are brought up slap against the inherent contradiction that lawyers and Parliamentarians cannot settle wage negotiations. They cannot evolve, except in the broadest possible terms and in extreme caution, what powers Parliament should be giving the Government without fostering the atmosphere of disillusionment and cynicism that Mr. Woodcock has referred to.
  The T.U.C. says, "Let us run it". The Government say, "We want you to run it, but we would like to have reserve powers". The T.U.C. says, "We do not want you to have those reserve powers". We are told that it is only a "bauble" so we should not lose any sleep over it. However, sooner or later this "bauble" will be used. My fear, on the experience of the last 18 months, is that it will not be used in the precise and specific circumstances of a particular claim.
  That was not how we obtained the wage freeze. It was our own Chancellor of the Exchequer who said in The Hague that the deflationary measures of 20th July were adequate and the wage freeze

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  was a "bonus". If foreign bankers again need to be shown that the Government can be tough with trade unionists, the Government will have another "little bauble", another plaything, but I do not regard it as a plaything. If sterling were put under pressure and the Government felt obliged to make a show of strength to reinforce this so called incomes policy, we would have given them an instrument which they would use. I said that the wage freeze was a bonus, in the words of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Has it paid off? Nobody knows. We know that the deflationary policies have paid off. Sterling is stronger.
  If it is not disillusionment and cynicism which we are engendering, if it is enthusiasm and confidence which we are asking from the trade unionists, I am bound to return to one of my earlier arguments. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) seemed to have a defective memory when he told us about 1958, the first occasion when there were exchanges between the Front Benches about incomes policy. After all, the Tories had six years after that to implement the sort of policies he finally adumbrated and they left behind a sterling crisis of monumental proportions.
  If it is a run on sterling which obliges the Government to introduce the wage freeze from which they are seeking to extricate themselves by an orderly dismantling of controls, then I must ask once again how general secretaries of trade unions can tell their members that wages must be forgone and that agreements reached must be abandoned when the Government are still pursuing a wrong course to deal with the run on sterling.
  We are in the throes of a Middle East crisis, and yet, after all the blood and bitterness and hatred that had to be gone through in order to achieve a base upon Cyprus, in the middle of the crisis we are told that we cannot use that base. This is a time when we are being invited to support a Government prepared to spend hundreds of millions of pounds in dollars to buy American planes, a drain upon our sterling balance, to produce some sort of presence in South-East Asia and to have bases in the Indian Ocean.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is getting a little wide of the Bill now, as he knows.
  Mr. Horner: What I am trying to say is that my resistance to this obnoxious piece of legislation and my abhorrence of the powers which the Government are seeking to retain and extend would be somewhat modified if I felt that in other directions different courses were being pursued.
  I have said enough to indicate that I shall not be able to support the Government on the Bill. While it remains in its present form, or whatever form may emerge from Committee, and while it is not acted upon, the judgment of the General Secretary of the T.U.C. may be accurate and it may remain innocuous. Certainly it remains irrelevant to the economic problems facing us. Whether it is irrelevant or not, the potential dangers inherent in the Bill are such that I cannot subscribe to them. I hope that the Government will think again, because the cynicism and disillusionment against which George Woodcock warned us some months ago is spreading through the trade union movement. I urge the Government, even at this late hour, not to extend that cynicism and disillusionment.
  6.55 p.m.
  Mr. David Howell: I gladly join with my hon. Friends, and I hope with some hon. Members opposite, in opposing the Bill. I personally am delighted that my own party, the Conservative Party, has reached the stage, after careful deliberation, where it feels that it can oppose the Bill and dissociate itself completely from its vague and imprecise language and woolly thinking, and, therefore, rather illiberal thinking, which has gone into this legislation and its predecessors.
  In taking that position, my party must not be destructive. There has been enough destruction of our economy. It is our job to pick our way through the rubble of economic policy and try to build up some positive alternatives. The inevitable challenge from the Government Front Bench, if from nowhere else, is: "What would you do instead? What is your alternative? How would you deal with the short-term situation?" This is a challenge which we must face, and in answering it the first thing to point out

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  is that behind this question are three assumptions.
  The first, already questioned, is that the policy has worked so far; the second is that the policy in its new form will work in the future; and the third is that the policy is a genuine short-term policy, that it has its place in a Government short-term strategy, and that it belongs in this set of thoughts. These assumptions are not only questionable, but any evidence that we have suggests that they cannot be sustained.
  First, has the policy worked? The First Secretary has made claims for it, but the more one examines the figures, the harder it is to believe that any statistics to support the claim that this policy has worked can be disentangled. Throughout the whole time that this policy has been operating, the Government have been operating a policy of major credit restriction and a squeeze on the economy. I do not believe that one can point to specific instances where the operation of this policy, of which this Bill is a new development, has contributed to our supposed overall economic aims, which are greater competitiveness, higher exports and lower costs. If it is hard to see how the evidence could be disentangled, how can any claim be made that this policy has worked? I agree with the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner) that it has not worked. If there is evidence either way, it has yet to be produced.
  The second point which has been touched on is the influence of this continuing policy on productivity. The First Secretary made a number of claims for the way in which this policy and the application of the previous prices and incomes policy had helped to improve productivity and bring into being productivity bargains. I am sure he has some specific instances to quote. However, there are many other instances—and I can quote some—where developments in productivity and new incentive schemes have been brought to a grinding halt by this kind of policy. There are many instances of management consultants being called in to inject new incentive schemes and better pay systems into both public agencies and private firms and the reforms being brought to a halt. There are many other unreported instances where again and again staffs
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  who had embarked on new organisation schemes have, because of these policies, far from being encouraged, were discouraged and the schemes brought to a halt.
  The House has not had any substantial evidence or statistics or satisfactory answers to questions by hon. Members to show that this policy has been decisive in achieving the aim which the Government say they want to achieve—cutting costs and raising exports.
  The second question is whether it will work in future, will this extension of the policy operate? Here, of course, the key is the Prices and Incomes Board. The Aubrey Jones Board has done excellent work. Aubrey Jones personally has been very able in penetrating into industries and managing to see where the competitive system has failed, or where market forces have failed to operate, and in suggesting ways in which the structures of industries could be reorganised, new pay systems injected and new methods operated so that industry would become competitive again and reduce costs. In that area he has been extremely successful.
  But when it comes to the point that he is asked to act as the great judge and arbiter, when he is to operate and give judgment about the direct movements of wages, that is placing Aubrey Jones and the Board out of their depth, asking them to do things which they cannot do, to do things which will actually work against their far more valuable work, and it would be a great pity to damage the excellent work which the Board has done. For that reason I can only shake my head when asked whether the policy will work in future.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is it not true that Aubrey Jones, in particular, and the Prices and Incomes Board, in general, welcome this opportunity to act as judges, not, I agree, to be the watchdog of a compulsory prices and incomes policy, but to be the judge in specific wage movements and price movements, and also wish to have some kind of reserve compulsory power, although not the power which has been adopted by the Government?
  Mr. Howell: That is not my understanding of the Board's position. Certainly the Board wishes to continue much

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  of the excellent work which it has done already in promoting greater efficiency and improving competitiveness and improving wage structures. That gives rise to a much broader question, which is still connected with the operation of a policy of this kind, and which is whether hon. Members will one day want to have the opportunity of questioning a man like the Chairman of the Prices and Incomes Board about the way in which his contribution to policy is made, because as long as we lack that opportunity we are seriously limited about the way in which we as a House can make judgments about or debate such things as the prices and incomes policy.
  The third question is whether this is a short-term policy at all, and here we come to the heart of the constitutional muddle in the Department of Economic Affairs and Government thinking. I remember very clearly the "founding father" of this type of prices and incomes legislation, the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown), saying that it would take many years to build a prices and incomes policy. Many others who are very involved with this work and who have great expertise on the subject have said the same.
  Of course it is true that it will take many years to alter the habits and attitudes of society towards prices and incomes, and yet the Bill is now being waved before us, as the previous legislation was waved before us, as though it were some device which could make a direct contribution to our present economic situation, as though the operation of this kind of legislation had something to do with the movement of export prices in the coming months and with the movement of overall retail prices, our performance in world markets, the balance of payments and the strength of sterling. The more one considers this connection between prices and incomes legislation and our immediate economic aims, the more the connection dissolves into nothing until it does not exist, for there is no connection between the prices and incomes policy and the Government's immediate economic aims.
  Many of those who have taken a leading part in proposing this legislation and putting forward the idea of a prices and incomes policy have recognised that it
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  is a long-term policy, that the Government can have a legitimate involvement with the movement of prices and incomes in the long term in various ways, but that in the short term this policy does not start to be a contribution to our immediate problems.
  This brings me to the point to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) brought up so clearly when he said that of course we must turn our minds and energies to other things, first if we are to achieve ordered stability, the starting point for the economic growth for which all hon. Members are always calling, and, secondly, if we are to go forward to sustained economic growth and expansion and a credible economic performance in the world's markets. He rightly mentioned the necessity for creating an improved climate of industrial relations and an improved framework which I believe and which many trade unionists believe will involve changes in the legal framework in order that collective bargaining can be more effective and so that unions can be stronger and more supple in their pursuit of productivity bargains.
  Mr. Orme: What evidence does the hon. Gentleman have that trade unions are in favour of an extension of legal sanctions into collective bargaining or anything else? Can he give chapter and verse?
  Mr. Howell: I did not say trade unions in general; I said some trade unionists. Secondly, it is not a question of legal sanctions in collective bargains. Collective bargains should be as enforceable as employers and employees want. But I would have thought that many trade unionists would believe as I do that the time has come when we can strengthen the collective bargaining system and the way in which bargains are reached, so as to enable trade unions to go about the business of getting higher earnings. I would have thought that that would he a desirable aim, and it is quite the opposite of the aim of the present policy, which is to have low earnings.
  This, combined with other reforms in management and incentives, can be the way forward rather than into this morass of unintelligible and vague legislation. I believe that it could also provide an entirely new spirit, with the injection of

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  reforms of management techniques and cross-production techniques into the public sector where they are as necessary as in private industry, so that there can be proper incentives and proper bargaining processes and a proper spirit of invention. It could be argued that until that comes about the chances of bringing the growth of public expenditure under effective control are very small.
  Those are positive ideas, and I believe that my party is right to put them forward now as the Government's present policy goes deeper and deeper into the morass, until the only product which comes out is a totally stagnant economy and a demoralised trade union movement.
  7.7 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Atkinson: The right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) gave us a very interesting treatise on the policy of the Conservative Party at the forthcoming General Election. Curiously, his list of priorities seemed to have been compiled with great urgency. I cannot understand why it should be thought that there is any need for urgency, for many things will happen before the party opposite has the opportunity to present such a policy to the electorate, and even then it will have a still longer opportunity in opposition to correct many of the mistakes and weaknesses which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to perpetuate in his list of priorities.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the right hon. George Woodcock, the leader of the T.U.C. We ought to try to get the record straight. It is true that George Woodcock described the Bill as innocuous, but he also said that if any part of it were put into effect it would become obnoxious. He went on at length to say that he would not have the same irreverent attitude if the Government tried to apply any of the Bill's provisions to a trade union involved in wage negotiations.
  The second thing to make clear about George Woodcock is what his attitude would have been if he had been a Member of Parliament. He was talking purely as a trade unionist, and said that he regarded it, presumably because of his discussions with the Government and Aubrey Jones, as irrelevant so long as it was not used, but then went on in clear terms to say to me that if he were a Member of
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  this House he would not support the Bill. That was my deduction, from those discussions which we had.
  We therefore ought to be clear about the T.U.C. Some of my hon. Friends have mentioned its reactions and it is now known that no major union except the General and Municipal Workers' Union supports this legislation. Therefore, the T.U.C.'s attitude for the future is clear. There is no doubt that this policy will be rejected by Congress and by the annual conference of the Labour Party this year—
  Mr. Peter Mahon: My hon. Friend has indulged in some conjecture. Many hon. Members had the privilege of listening to the person to whom he refers and I do not believe that he said that, if he were a Member of the House, he would vote against the Bill.
  Mr. Atkinson: I agree. I did not credit him with those exact words, but said that I had deduced from what he said that, had he been a Member, he would have voted against it. This was evident, because he said that although it was irrelevant, it would be obnoxious once it was used. This was clear from the discussions. Also, when answering questions, he was doing so as a member not of the legislature but of the T.U.C. One would gather that impression from his remarks—
  Mr. Park: Would it not be equally correct to say that there was nothing in Mr. Woodcock's remarks to suggest that he would be prepared for a moment to vote for the Bill?
  Mr. Atkinson: I would certainly have that impression, also, and that sums up the outcome of that discussion. If the First Secretary has evidence to the contrary, we should hear something about the negotiations with the T.U.C.
  I would remind my right hon. Friend that this is the third temporary Measure introduced in this Parliament, presumably as part of the Prime Minister's "dismantling process". But the legislation extends periods of wage control and, therefore, cannot be part of that process but a piece of more permanent legislation. The First Secretary said that the prices and incomes policy must be geared to the economy and implied that, instead of a laissez-faire system of wages and prices,

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  we should have legislation like this to back up voluntary systems. He said that we were aiming at a voluntary system, but then argued for the permanency of this legislation.
  We are now back where we were a year ago, with a voluntary system based on compulsory legislation, which is a curious system. I am interested in the development of political ideas in this respect on this side. I look upon this period as transitional, prior to the creation of a different society, and I believe that we should now be formulating ideas and creating the basis for a classless society.
  But many of my hon. Friends who have rejected the idea of a Socialist classless society see the Labour movement's rôle as something else. This is important in terms of wage legislation, particularly when we are considering possible permanent legislation—
  Mr. M. Stewart Mr. M. Stewart indicated dissent.
  Mr. Atkinson: My right hon. Friend may shake his head, but I have heard his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy arguing for permanent wage legislation, which is more or less the view of many leading Members of the Government.
  This is a serious debate in the Labour movement's history, concerning managerial techniques in a capitalist system and how we should manage modern capitalism. It is, therefore, important for us to understand what wage legislation like this involves. The Government now believe that these methods will create a system to correct the inherent weaknesses of the capitalist society. They see it as part of a process of achieving this balance by managerial methods and eliminating some of this society's worst excesses.
  Those who reject the conception of a classless society favour instead what they call a "consensus society", with all sections of class interests taking decisions together. They see the possibility of a generous welfare society with the maintenance of present class interests. They see, side by side with the Government, the interests of the trade unions and big industries like Leylands, Courtaulds and I.C.I. taking part in that decision-making process. But that is not practical. It is
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  not political reality without some method of controlling wages, because the contradictions are so sharp that there could never be continuity in such a society.
  This is the reason for the weaknesses of our society and for problems with the balance of payments and inflationary crises—lack of control between the relationship of wages, prices and profits. Therefore, they must introduce this sort of permanent legislation to build the consensus society which they see as the alternative to Socialism. This is their conception of the Labour movement's rôle and this is why they attach such great importance to permanent wage legislation. It is now time for the Labour movement to discuss these fundamentals.
  In 1964, the Labour Party was elected with a majority of three. We were nearly in a bankrupt situation as a result of the efforts of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. Because of this situation, the Labour Government found themselves hooked to a policy advocated not only by British, but by international bankers. With a majority of that kind, they knew that they would have to go back to the country in a very short time on a basis of popularity. It was, therefore, necessary to go for long-term loans. But the Government had to accept the conditions on which those loans were made.
  It is clear that the advice given to the Government by the International Monetary Fund and the banks in Europe as part of the package at that time was that they should pursue a policy of compulsory wage control in order to avoid the problems which were likely to arise and cause further trouble for the pound. As a result, we had two things: one was that first priority was given to the value of the pound and the other was that policies of this sort were pursued by the Government to achieve that aim.
  The First Secretary smiles. I do not know what jokes are made about this sort of thing, but the evidence from the I.M.F. and elsewhere is that this was the advice given to the Government. Presumably, there is sufficient evidence in the policy which the Government have pursued in the last two years to suggest that they accepted the advice of the I.M.F. Therefore, we have every reason to believe that those were the conditions of the borrowings which were made.

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  That was contrary to the basis on which the Labour Party fought two elections. We had argued about stop-go and deflationary policies of the sort which have been pursued since. We were telling the country that, once there was a new management, we could have a policy of continuous growth. We have always argued as Socialists that in this transitional period we could achieve a policy of continuous growth to build the necessary foundations to enable us to make the changes which we wished to make.
  There has been departure all along the line from our original ideas. There has been a rejection of stop-go and deflation has been used as a substitute. Many of us are critical of that situation. There is still time for the Government to change course or to get back on to the course which they were following in 1964 and to pursue the policies of continuous growth which they then put before the nation. To do that successfully there must be Government intervention—but not of the kind which is being pursued by the Government.
  When we were arguing on the basis of continuous growth and a fast-growing economy to enable us to do the things which we outlined, it was necessary to get our priorities right. So that we could advance the technologies of our economy it was further necessary to become much more sensitive to what those priorities were. This was our argument. We have always argued a case for an investment board to be able to distinguish much more sensitively between the tinsel and chrome plating of our society and the necessities so that we might achieve an export-led reflation.
  But these ideas have since, been rejected. Pragmatism has taken over. One of the casualties has been some method of controlling our investment and of directing investment policy in the economy. Before long, we must return to it, because a wage policy of the present sort is no substitute for controlling investment or for guiding and building a high-wage economy based on fast growth.
  There is a number of things which are necessary in a fast-growing economy. One of them is change. This involves all of us—trade union members and the whole nation. There is one thing which
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  we shall not do in this or any other situation. We shall not bring about the changes which are required and mobility of labour, as the Government call it, or build a flexible society, unless we establish the first principle, and that is the right of every man to work. This goes alongside the question of a wage policy.
  Because of the Government's inheritance and problems, and because of the policies of deflation which they have been pursuing, we have had continuous and escalating unemployment in the last two years. We are bound to ask what will happen in future. The Government have always argued that a wage policy and prices and incomes legislation are alternatives to unemployment. That was the choice which the Prime Minister put to the T.U.C. But the Government have come to the conclusion that we should have permanent unemployment as a piece of policy. To back up that statement, I quote from this month's Economic Trends:
  "The total registered unemployed not seasonally adjusted has fallen from its peak of 603,000 last February to 541,000 in May."
  It continues:
  "There should be little further change in the underlying level of unemployment once expansion gets fully under way."
  That is a brutal way of saying that this is the Government's policy. They have totally accepted the Paish arguments about having continuous unemployment of 2 per cent. I question members of the Government Front Bench about this statement, which presumably the Treasury and the D.E.A. have accepted. It is a Government publication, giving an outline of the Government's policy. I should like to quote the second sentence again:
  "There should be little further change in the underlying level of unemployment once expansion gets fully under way."
  That is the reassurance which has been given to those who have loaned us money. We are linking to it a policy of unemployment of about 2 per cent. Therefore, there goes one of the other ingredients necessary in a fast growing economy, namely, guaranteed employment, or the right to work for everyone.
  In their July proposals the Government announced certain policies, one of which was to cut the 1967–68 investment programme of the nationalised industries

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  by about £95 million. Ministers said that the object of this cutback was to maintain prices. We had an assurance at the time that that policy would not involve increased prices. That was part of the package deal announced on 20th July.
  What has happened since? On the Friday before the House rose for the Whitsun Recess, the Minister of Power took his shoes off and crept into the Chamber in his stockinged feet so that no one could hear him and announced a 10 per cent. rise in the price of electricity. [An HON. MEMBER: "Average."] An average of 10 per cent. In many cases, it was much more.
  There was the Government whispering this basic change in policy, despite the cuts which they have made last July and the promises which had been made then. Against all the advice about cutting back on our investment programme, the Government had to come to the House to announce a 10 per cent. increase in electricity charges.
  There again, part of their policy has been disproved by history since that time—
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: The Minister went on to explain that, in part, this was due to the Government's own policy of creating the unemployment which was responsible for the shortfall in the take-up of the new electricity for which the capital investment had been put in. In other words, they created it themselves.
  Mr. Atkinson: That was one of the outcomes of the fall in the demand for electricity, and part of the reason for raising the price.
  When we were arguing the case for increased investment in the nationalised industries and, indeed, in the whole of industry, we were told that this was part of the policy to keep down prices. My submission is that it is as a direct result of the cuts that we see the creation of the problems which face us at the moment and, therefore, history is on our side in that sense.
  My right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench argue about collective bargaining being a system which has failed, is inadequate, and creates anomalies.
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  However, it is part of our economic system. No one argues that it is perfect. The truth is that collective bargaining has done too well and has obtained too much for our workers. We have been saying for two years that our workers have been getting too much and will have to take a little less. We have been saying that they are the cause of the inflationary situation. Ministers representing the Labour movement are arguing that workers have to take less as their share of the cake. That is an argument which many of us reject. No one can argue that workers are taking too much from our economy in its present stage of development. However, the whole purpose of this Measure is to make sure that they have less.
  I come now to the control of prices, which is one of the most important features of this legislation, and I want to comment on the Government's attitude towards many facets of the policy, on their reasons and on their inconsistencies.
  On 22nd November of last year, when the First Secretary introduced his White Paper, he said:
  "Proposals for price increases must be judged by criteria of severe restraint. The criteria set up in the White Paper on the standstill cannot, therefore, be relaxed. …"
  He went on:
  "It is important that prices should be reduced wherever possible."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd November, 1966; Vol. 736, c. 1150.]
  My right hon. Friend has reiterated that statement today, and it is because of its dishonesty that people rejected the leadership of the Labour movement at the local elections. Throughout the country, people understand what is going on and have comments to make about it.
  The Government know that they cannot afford to reduce prices. That statement by the First Secretary was wrong then and it is wrong today. There are many people who may not be sophisticated economists, but who know that a fall in prices is equal to an increase in wages. The whole nation can see that, if prices are reduced, wages are increased, because the demand for goods is increased and consumer levels are increased. The nation can see clearly that, when a Government introduce wages legislation and talk about a reduction in prices, they

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  are "pulling someone's leg". The Government know that if they reduce prices they annihilate their own wages policy.
  If the object is to cut down the purchasing power of our people, prices cannot be reduced at the same time. The object should be to push up prices so as to reduce consumer levels. If the arguments about the balance of payments, inflation and the rest mean anything at all, the policy of the Government should be to reduce wages but to raise prices, and that is what they have been doing. They have introduced taxation methods to push up prices, and they should not be heard complaining about it, because it should be part of their policy. They have used many methods to achieve higher prices, but it has not been lost on the country that we cannot have lower prices and less wages. By having lower prices, wages are pushed up to a higher level. It is wrong to make these sorts of statements, and the country recognise it.
  There is an alternative, and it is to argue the case for free wage negotiations, having price controls at the same time. That is a policy which is rejected by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. They, in company with the C.B.I. and other representatives of the employers, have never advocated the control of prices and, coming back to the banker's policy being pursued by the Government, unfortunately they themselves have had to rule out the idea of price controls. On the fringes, they were able to achieve some results, but they have had to reject the idea of looking into the whole matter of price regulation and control.
  From an analysis of consumer spending, we know that we can, without difficulty, control the price of 70 to 80 per cent. of the commodities bought in the retail trades. We know that it can be done, and that our fuel and transport can be readily controlled by the Government. It is a feasible policy. By analysis of our industrial structure, we know that we can control the prices of 65 or 70 per cent, of those prices. Therefore, there is a wide basis upon which this Government could pursue a policy of price control, at the same time having free wage negotiation.
  In the light of free wage negotiations and against price controls, they would
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  bring about the policy of redistribution which they advocate. Anything conceded in free wage negotiation would have to be paid for at the expense of distributed dividends, and that should be part of the Government's policy. It would increase productivity, because any employer conceding wage advances against a price ceiling would have to reinvest in his own industry and modernise it to create the productivity to cover the cost of the wage advances offered to his workers.
  There is an alternative policy, and I hope that, before long, the Government will again come to grips with the seriousness of the situation and reject the idea which they have been sold of pursuing a banker's policy to its logical conclusion, because, though they may have saved the £ in the process, they will have lost the Labour movement.
  Mr. Speaker: I must remind the House that there are still a number of hon. Members who have sat all day trying to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. Terence L. Higgins: I agree with the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) when he expresses fears about the development of what he calls a "consensus society". In another context, it might be referred to as a "corporate State".
  The Bill is a typical example of the way in which the present Government seeks to implicate the trade union movement and the employers' organisations in their policies, so that, should they fail, they will be committed to the Government's mistakes.
  I think it would be helpful to distinguish the various phases through which the Government's policy on prices and incomes has gone since they came to office in 1964. First, we had a period of voluntary restraint. Then came a period of freeze, followed by a period of severe restraint. I understand that the period which we are now entering is to be called "moderation". If that is so, the euphemisms are becoming more elegant and the terminology more refined.
  If we were to go through the whole thing again, we might find that we have experienced simply four periods of exhortation, frustration, inhibition and

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  relaxation. I think that the real danger is that it is possible that we shall get a repeat of the whole cycle, and it is because this would be a very serious matter for the economy of the country that I want to spend a short time going over the basic principles of the policy of which the Bill forms a part.
  The most important thing to do when considering this Bill is to enumerate the various things which we have sacrificed before the totem pole of the Government's incomes policy. The first of these, as the hon. Member for Tottenham rightly said, is that the process of collective bargaining, of free wage negotiations, has been seriously, and perhaps permanently, damaged.
  I share the views which have been expressed from both sides of the House that Part IV of the Act, which the Bill is supposed to replace, has created a precedent, and that we have no guarantee that it will not be reintroduced at a later stage in the proceedings when the Government find themselves in a situation in which economic difficulties arise.
  The second factor which we have sacrificed in order to adhere to the Government's prices and incomes policy is the movement of resources in the economy in response to changing consumer needs. This has been both inhibited and delayed by the measures which the Government have taken. This applies—and I remind the hon. Member for Tottenham of this—not only to the movement of labour, but also to the movement of goods. This is why we on this side of the House are not in favour of a price control policy of the kind which the hon. Gentleman has been advocating.
  The Government's policy is very much against economic growth, not least because the criteria on which they are basing their prices and incomes policy is concerned entirely with the cost or supply side and makes no allowance for alterations in demand. This came out clearly from my intervention during the First Secretary's statement some weeks ago when he announced the criteria to be used during the period covered by this Bill. I asked what would happen if productivity in an industry doubled, and the demand for the product halved. Would that justify a price increase?
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  This is a dilemma which the Government have never faced, and the criteria which they are using are likely to reduce output and lead to less satisfaction of consumer demand, rather than the other way about. We cannot accept the right hon. Gentleman's argument that the Government's policy has encouraged productivity agreements. It is complete and utter nonsense. The typical case is that of the Birmingham car delivery drivers, where it was admitted that productivity had declined as a result of an Order made under the Act. If the right hon. Gentleman had attended more of the fascinating debates that we had on the Orders under the existing legislation he would not have come forward with that kind of argument.
  The third thing which has been sacrificed is the principle of sanctity of contract, on which sound industrial relations must inevitably be based. I am deeply concerned about the answer which I received to my intervention during the right hon. Gentleman's speech today, because it appears that under the Bill it will be possible for a trade union or its members, to claim against an employer for a back payment refused during the earlier period of severe restraint. We have been assured throughout all debates on prices and incomes policy that employers would be protected if anyone were to act contrary to an Order. However, as I understand the position now it is that unions will be prevented from suing to obtain such a claim, but if they take industrial action and force the employer to pay up, or, if one likes, to volunteer, he will have no redress. I hope that whoever replies to the debate will make it clear whether this is, in fact, so.
  Fourthly, we come down to a situation in which discrimination and intimidation are the whole basis of the Government's policy. All the Orders which we have had have tended to discriminate against small groups, and in one case against a couple of individuals, and again if the right hon. Gentleman had been here to listen to the discussions he would not have come to the House this afternoon and said that this policy had been applied prudently. It is true that we never have quite found out what basis of selection is used in deciding who shall have Orders slapped on them.

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  It appeared at first that the Government were picking on the weakest cases—there were a number of Orders of this kind—and then that the Government were picking on awkward cases, such as the Transport and General Workers' Union. But if the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the power has been used prudently he ought to tell us the basis on which he has selected cases in the past, and the basis on which he proposes to select them in future, because it is nonsense to say that the Government's policy so far has been universal. It has been universal only in that a few Orders have been used to intimidate trade unions in general, but the Government know that they have no statistics to show the extent to which it has been universal, and in fact it has been grossly unfair and inequitable.
  The fifth thing which we have sacrificed has been the principle of not having retrospective legislation, and the Government not overruling court decisions. It is always a lamentable lapse to have retrospective legislation, as in the case of the war damage Measure, and this is not merely a lamentable lapse, but a nasty habit. It is happening again and again, and this was the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle) when he asked what the position was about appeals now being heard. The right hon. Gentleman said that we would have to wait until they had been heard. This is a sudden change of Government policy. Hitherto, every time it has looked as though a court decision might go against the Government the right hon. Gentleman has issued an Order, and under the Bill he is to have more and more retrospective power to overrule the courts. This is a big cost indeed to have to pay for the kind of policy which we are being asked to support.
  Finally, we have sacrificed sensible management of the economy, because the whole facade of the incomes policy has been devoted to distracting attention from the real need to manage the level of aggregate demand. It has been regarded by the Government as a substitute both for the short-run management of the economy, and for taking long-run measures on which economic growth must depend. It therefore seems to me that we are in a situation in which we have made enormous sacrifices for a policy which I
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  suggest to the House has been virtually worthless.
  We have not had any very clear estimate from the Government of what they think the effect of the policy may have been on the level of prices and incomes. Indeed, they have admitted that they find it impossible to calculate what the gain may have been, but I guess that at the end of the day, if we take the period 1966–67–68 overall, we shall find that the net effect of the policy for which we have sacrificed all the things which I have mentioned has been virtually nil, but perhaps when the Minister winds up the debate he will give us a forecast.
  I think that the situation was summed up admirably in an article in the Spectator of 24th March, when it said:
  "Nor, in spite of being pressed to do so in the House of Commons, has the Chancellor of the Exchequer been able to give any assessment of what beneficial effect, if any, the Government's so-called incomes policy has had on the nation's balance of payments.
  But just as the public is being talked into crediting that there has indeed been an economic miracle, so the 'incomes policy', … is being hailed as the magic that has brought it about."
  The fact is that we are still in a serious economic situation and that the contribution made by this policy for which we are being asked to sacrifice so much has been negligible.
  I want, finally, to say a few words about the way in which the cycle has developed, because I think that there is a grave danger that we will go through the whole thing again because of the inadequacy of the Government's real long-term thinking. It is extraordinary that the First Secretary should have indulged in what I think can only be described as a condemnation of his predecessor. The right hon. Gentleman stressed in a speech to the Durham Labour Women's annual rally, on 3rd June, that the period leading up to last July was one where the situation was that
  "In the event, prices as a whole—taking into account not only what people buy each week, but the things that they need to buy every few months or once a year—have risen since July by 6d. in the £. This is serious, but it is not the runaway inflation that threatened us last year."
  So, exactly two-and-a-half years after the present Foreign Secretary told us that we had a workable incomes policy, we are told by the First Secretary that we

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  were then in a period of runaway inflation. This was a period of complete failure of the voluntary system, which the right hon. Gentleman is now telling us will be resumed at a future date. It is not surprising if all hon. Members regard that with some suspicion.
  I hope that the Government will answer a specific question. This afternoon, the First Secretary said that we were going back to the voluntary system after the implemention of Part II and of the Bill. Am I wrong in thinking that there is no state in which Part II automatically lapses, but that it will continue in force after the period which is covered by the Bill?
  I do not believe that we shall go back to a voluntary system. Once the Government have had these powers they are likely to want to retain them. That fact was clearly borne out by the Prime Minister on 2nd April of this year, when he said that a return to greater reliance on statutory provisions might be necessary—presumably again if the voluntary system does not work.
  This is something of which hon. Members on both sides of the House should beware. The Government have relied throughout not on an incomes policy which has been a mere facade, but on the normal Treasury view that one must control the level of aggregate demand. The great danger is that we shall find ourselves in a position in which the Chancellor and the Government believe that an incomes policy will make a significant difference and will, therefore, engage in reflation before it is justified by the strength of our economic position.
  The structural changes necessary to get us out of our present difficulties are not being made. The moment that we rely again on an incomes policy, the moment the Government again begin to reflate, we shall find ourselves back in the position of last July, in terms of our economy, the weakness of our balance of payments position, and of compulsory powers relating to prices and incomes. I am deeply worried by the fact that the Chancellor now appears to be proposing to indulge in considerable measures of reflation, in conflict with the much more responsible view which he took earlier.
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  The right hon. Gentleman has begun to loosen up a little the hire-purchase restrictions on motor cars, and his speech over the weekend made it clear that he intends to go much further. We are now told that big increases in pensions are in the offing. No one is more in favour of increases in pensions than I am. They are infinitely to be preferred to many expenditures of the present Government in other directions, and they do not necessarily involve inflation—but they do if we add them to all the other ill-thought-out measures of the Government. In those circumstances, we are surely heading straight back to the position in which the Government will reflate and will try to rely on a prices and incomes policy.
  I do not believe that that policy has made any significant contribution to our economic welfare. I am deeply concerned that the present situation will develop into one in which the whole cycle runs through over again and we sacrifice all the things that I referred to at the beginning of my speech, quite unnecessarily and in defence of a very stupid policy.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The concluding remarks of the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) underline a point that I shall seek to make. The success of otherwise of an incomes policy, whether voluntary or compulsory, is of great significance to the rate at which we can reflate and the time when we can contemplate doing so. I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Member in thinking that there is a connection here—although he says that the connection is more in the mind of the Chancellor than in reality.
  I shall have some criticism to make not only of the Bill but also of the way in which the incomes policy has so far been applied by the Government. Nevertheless, I say at the beginning that I have always been a firm supporter of a prices and incomes policy. I have upheld the right of the Government to make their case felt and to take part in the movement of incomes and prices. I have long been converted to the view that any kind of voluntary policy which is left without some kind of compulsory reserve powers is probably doomed to failure, in

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  the present state of our industrial mentality. Therefore, some kind of reserve powers are essential, and as far as I can see they will be for a long time to come.
  I believe in an incomes policy for two reasons, which relate to its objective, which sometimes come into conflict. First, an incomes policy has a short-term objective in trying to relate increases in incomes to increases in productivity. The history of our economy since the war shows that we should try to solve this problem, which has so far proved insoluble. Until we do, whatever the state of the economy through deflation—however we control the level of income through deflation; this is the argument between the hon. Member for Worthing and myself, because I think that the incomes policy has had an effect, and he does not—there is an increasing demand for labour, and skilled labour in particular.
  An incomes policy has a profound part to play in regulating the movement of incomes during that period when the market forces would tend to push up in an inflationary spiral the level of wage rates. For this reason it is essential for us to try to win an effective victory for the incomes policy before we launch ourselves on reflation.
  The second objective of an incomes policy is one in respect of which I doubt whether I shall get much agreement from hon. Members opposite. I would have thought, however, that it would appeal to everyone on this side of the House and, in particular, to those who have been the most virulent critics of the Government's incomes policy. It is a long-term but none the less basic ingredient of an incomes policy to try to bring about a fairer adjustment in the incomes of the community, and in this way to raise the standard of living of everybody.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) was talking about our aim of achieving a classless society. I believe in that as devoutly as he does, and an incomes policy, in the long term, is perhaps the best way of achieving it. We have been playing about with the problem of the redistribution of incomes for about 50 years, in greater or lesser degree—greater degree when we were in power and lesser degree when the Conservatives were in power. We have been
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  messing about with it by means of taxation.
  What we ought to be doing is tackling it at the roots, trying to determine what is a fair share of the wealth of the country for each individual member of the community, and trying to weight things in favour of those whose bargaining power is weak and whose numbers are, perhaps, very great, as against those whose bargaining powers are strong and whose numbers are very limited. The incomes policy has a vital part to play here.
  Therefore, when I came into the House to defend the Government against some of the attacks of my hon. Friends in the debates we have had on Orders, I did not do so, as was sometimes suggested, out of some kind of legalistic desire to accord with the legislation, but from a profound conviction that unless we establish a viable incomes policy the pace at which we shall approach social equality is bound to be much slower than I would wish. For this reason, I believe that somehow we have to establish a viable policy.
  Inevitably, to change a pattern of mind and outlook that has been growing up for hundreds of years will take time. We cannot overnight get the kind of social equality we should all like through an incomes policy. When one plants an acorn one has to wait quite a few years for it to grow into an oak tree. Inevitably, during a period of change there is tension between the long-term and the short-term objectives of the policy.
  My criticism of the Government has been that they have concentrated too much on the short-term objectives, sometimes sacrificing the hopes of achieving the long-term objectives. That was inevitable. When the Government took over, we had reached the situation—and no hon. Member opposite can take any credit for it—in which we were running into a balance of payments deficit of frightening proportions, and we tried to stem the process by the measures we took, and the institution of voluntary incomes policy.
  I do not accept the view that the voluntary incomes policy was wholly unsuccessful. It had begun to change people's attitudes. It was beginning to gain acceptance in the popular mind, and in the minds of those responsible for negotiating increases in incomes and prices.

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  But it was too slow for what we wanted. It is true to say that there was a pattern of runaway inflation. In the first year of the voluntary policy we had incomes going up by 9 per cent. and prices going up by 5 per cent. A halt had to be called to that movement.
  Why did we have that pattern? Was it not simply because there was no reserve power at the back who could say "No" to those cases which were wholly unjust and where there had been no justification for an increase? Without that power, once those sectors of the community achieved an increase, those others who felt they had a justifiable case for an increase were moved to put in for more. The result was a galloping inflation that had to be stopped.
  Clearly, in the logic of events, there had to be some kind of reserve compulsory powers. I believe that the Government were absolutely right in requiring those powers by last year's Act. Where I fear they went wrong was in not trusting too much to this new power and this development of the incomes policy. We heard repeated today yet again the remark of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at The Hague that if the incomes policy were successful it would be a bonus to the other policies he was advocating.
  That is my criticism—that at a moment when it was possible to break through into an incomes policy, when acceptance was beginning to show in the public mind, but when we needed that body of reserve compulsory powers to enforce the policy, we bring in wholesale deflation because we cannot trust the incomes policy which we ourselves have advocated. If there had been more trust in the incomes policy there could have been less trust in deflation. It is on this point that troubles have arisen.
  Everyone was prepared to accept the prices and incomes freeze—I agree that the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) was not, he has a different conception of the economy, but most people were prepared to accept a wages incomes and prices freeze because there was a certain rough justice about it. It is in the period of severe restraint, when we have to pick and choose in the management of affairs, when we have to determine who shall or who shall not get
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  increases, or who shall or shall not get permission to put up prices, that we have to be much clearer about what we are trying to achieve, and it is only acceptable if there is a general upward movement of the standard of living. It is almost impossible to apply such a selective incomes policy—which is really what an incomes policy is about—in a period of deflation, when we are trying to hold down levels of increases generally and only letting a few small increases get through.
  It is clear from the kind of criteria that were set out in the various White Papers on the standstill and the period thereafter that the Government had in mind only this short-term objective of keeping down increases in prices. Most of the criteria relate simply to a delaying power. Most of the issues between the Government and the trade unions have related simply to a power to delay a particular award; ultimately, the award was made. I must confess that when there was public discussion about what the criteria should be for the period of severe restraint—though there should be some thaw—I had never envisaged that we would immediately give permission for increases that had been delayed for six months, because it meant that some increases were allowed that were not justified by any reasonable criteria.
  That nonsense was perceived by the Prices and Incomes Board in relation to the award in the electrical contracting industry. The Board first said that that award—of, I think, 13 per cent.—was unjustified by any reasonable criteria of an incomes policy, but then said that it was justified by the new White Paper on severe restraint which allowed payments to be made if they had been agreed in time and amount before 20th July. Clearly, if we were trying to evolve a realistic incomes policy, the criteria would have been related to the long-term—to productivity agreements and increases in the standard of living of the lower-paid workers—those are justifiable criteria, but not simply and without question, to give an increase during the period of severe restraint to the six million workers who were entitled to a pay increase on 20th July.
  The other part of my criticism relates to the ineffectiveness of the price element in this equation. The Government first of

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  all refused to take any powers to deal with increases in rents and rates—yet the rent is the very essence of the ordinary household budget. If one puts up rents one will inevitably get a ferment of discontent if the "old man" cannot also bring home a higher wage packet.
  I have heard the explanation for this, namely: if councils are not allowed to increase rents, where will they get the money to make up the deficit on the housing accounts? If that were the only cause for concern, one method by which this could have been alleviated was by payment out of central funds from some of the amounts which we have been reaping off in the cause of inflation. Again there is the conflict between the measures which were taken for inflationary purposes and those which should have been taken to make the incomes policy workable.
  The worst offence of all related to prices. The Government said that they intended to apply the policy to prices as well, but I have asked some Questions in the last week about how effective this was. I tabled two Questions to five different Ministries. I first asked how many applications there had been from manufacturers and retailers to be allowed to increase prices since 20th July last. The surprising feature of the replies is how few applications there have been. True, in a fair percentage of cases the Government did not grant permission; there was some reduction before the price was approved. The overall number, however, is infinitely small in view of the number of price increases which occur every year. The Board of Trade received 525 applications, which would be the biggest number. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food received 200. The Ministry of Transport received only one application. None of the other Ministries received any. That is a total of 726. Over the vast mechanism of prices there were only 726 references.
  Mr. Biffen: This is a very small point. I have noted the assiduous researches of the hon. Member, but they have not been comprehensive. I assure him that at this very moment the Department of Education and Science is wrestling with the problem of what should be the right scale of charges for pony rides.
  Mr. Lyon: It is true that my researches were not comprehensive, but they included
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  the two major Departments. More interesting answers came to my second Question, which was how many complaints the Ministries had received from members of the public or from Members of Parliament about price increases. The answer to this was a factual one which could have been soon ascertained. I put a little sting in the tail and asked in how many cases the Ministry concerned had acted to reduce prices.
  Here I received some very interesting answers. Apparently the number of complaints was about 18,000. The Department of Economic Affairs gave this as the overall total it had received. Obviously that Department channelled them off to various other Ministries. The Board of Trade got 5,150. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food got 4,000. In reply to the second part of my Question, which was in how many cases the requested increase was approved, all five Departments of State, acting separately, gave me the same answer, namely, that they had investigated all complaints, unless from information available to the Department the justification for the increase was already known.
  It can only be assumed from that evasive answer given by all the Departments that in not one case out of the 18,000 was action taken to reduce prices. I cannot conceive that all 18,000 were justified by the criteria in the White Paper. Here the Government could have acted to get the psychological atmosphere for acceptance of the prices and incomes policy. They could have taken action on those price increases which were clearly unjustified. The only Order which was made was in relation to laundry prices, and that came only after most laundry prices had increased.
  Therefore, one got the impression, rightly or wrongly—the Minister who is to reply will no doubt deal with any criticisms I have made—that the Government were soft on prices and hard on incomes. That came about simply because we were acting only for the short-term objective of trying to stem the rising tide of inflation at this moment. Therefore, the Government should now decide what is, and fight for, the long-term objective of the incomes policy. They should take the necessary measures to achieve the long-term objective of

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  bringing about greater equality in the community.
  Some reserve power will inevitably be necessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Homer) mentioned the case of his own union. He said that we had been arguing for the past year about a piddling few cases of 38,000 people. He demonstrated by his argument that, if there had been no reserve powers in the last 12 months, the case of the Fire Brigades Union would have gone ahead. It is true that the National Board for Prices and Incomes accepted that that case was justified. However, many other cases in which there was no justification for the increase would also have gone ahead in the absence of powers. There must be some reserve power to deal with those who will not co-operate in a voluntary policy.
  Having made these criticisms, I again congratulate the Government upon trying, despite all the difficulties, to get a viable incomes policy. Solid progress has been made. The progress has not been as good as the believers in the policy would have liked, but it is clear that the T.U.C. would not now be embarking upon an attempt to bring about a more rational procedure for negotiation of wages unless there had been this period in which we have tried to use compulsory powers.
  This is the massive acceptance of the idea of an incomes policy, the idea that the nation has a right to a say in negotiations and that negotiations cannot be simply left to the two parties, the workers on one side and the employers on the other. This is the great gain. This gain will continue, provided that we try to secure real justice and provided that we try to deal with prices and with incomes outside those of trade unionists and with the whole question of dividends and rents. All this must be part of a policy which I hope will be tenaciously pursued.
  For this reason, I support the Bill. I only wish that the reserve power had been stronger. I recognise the pressures on the Government which have made it impossible for them to take the kind of reserve powers which Mr. Aubrey Jones has requested and which I would have gladly supported. I hope that the Government, now that they have taken
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  some power, will continue with this policy and will fight for all that they are worth to achieve real success so that the standard of living of every member of the community can be raised.
  8.19 p.m.
  Mr. John Biffen: Inevitably, the debate has been a blend of metaphysics, historical reminiscence, and diagnosis; and to some extent it has been concerned with the very hard practicalities contained in the Bill. I shall direct most of my remarks to the Bill, but I think that it would be in the traditions of the debate if I at least made a passing reference to what I call some of the metaphysics and some of the history.
  There is a widespread presumption that everyone favours an incomes policy and that only the "Adam Adamants" of economics who have come out of the Ice Age dissent from it. This is the prevailing mood, and I do not particularly want to kick against it this evening. I say only this. "An incomes policy" is not a self-revealing phrase. It means almost anything to anyone.
  What we are debating is not the virtue or otherwise of an incomes policy, not the significance or otherwise of a practical incomes policy, but, primarily, whether we prefer to have an economic policy which proceeds from the control of the aggregate level of demand, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) said, one might in shorthand fashion call the traditional Treasury view, or, on the other hand, whether we believe that there should be powers of identification and selection given to the Government and those within whom they can induce a spirit of co-operation to affect the pattern of prices, of incomes and of investment.
  It is the second view which has been in the ascendant, and not merely since the present Government took office. We acknowledge that that view had widespread support in the period from 1961–62 onwards. I say all this merely by way of introduction, because I believe that this is what the debate is about at the, so to speak, metaphysical level.
  I believe that we should be far better served if we concentrated our energies on supporting the view that it was the prime

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  function of Governments to get the aggregate level of demand right. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing warn against the dangers of premature reflation—
  Mr. Higgins: Large-scale reflation.
  Mr. Biffen: —yes, large scale—signs of which he already saw in the actions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  So much for the metaphysics. I turn now to the history of the matter.
  Most hon. Members have felt obliged to pass some sort of judgment on whether the last 12 months have seen the success of the stautory powers of Part 1V, or whether, in fact, it was the credit squeeze which was primarily responsible for the movement of prices and incomes. For my part, I do not think that one can do better than the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Homer), who said that we did not know and it was in the nature of the problem that we never would. I know of no substantial body of evidence to support the argument of the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) that the existence of Part IV had a tangible and measurable effect upon the movement of prices and of incomes.
  I shall put a few statistics to the House. I apologise for so doing, but I think that they can help us in deciding whether the existence of these considerable statutory powers has had much marked effect upon the movements of either prices or incomes. Between July, 1966, and April, 1967—the latest available date—the index of wage rates—I use the index, conscious of all its limitations—moved from 154·5 to 156·5, an increase of 2 points in nine months.
  Next, I take the corresponding period of nine months, September, 1957, to June, 1958, after the Thorneycroft measures. I have deliberately gone back to that point in time because there was no question of an incomes policy, even in its most incipient form, dominating current conventionally accepted economic thinking at that time. During that corresponding period of nine months, the index moved from 111·5 to 113·4, an increase of 1·9 points.
  It seems to me that, from those two corresponding periods, one can say that it looks as though the situation was roughly the same, and it is that kind of
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  evidence which, I think, sustains the argument of the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen and the great many other hon. Members who have rightly said that by far the most important factor affecting the movement of prices and incomes has probably been the existence of the July credit squeeze measures. The same case can be made on the retail prices index, but, to save the time of the House and, I hope, to allow other hon. Members to speak, I take it that I shall be excused from embarking on a general exposition of the various statistics I have here.
  I come now to what is, probably, the more important part of our business today, the Bill itself. There are two major features of the Bill: first, the enhancement of the Prices and Incomes Board; second, the supposition that this will usher in a voluntary system, supervised, presumably, by the T.U.C.—with some gentle lines of encouragement from the Government—and, I suppose, by the C.B.I.
  Let us consider the enhancement of the National Board for Prices and Incomes. The Board has become pretty much the sole regulator from now on. There is no question of the Government's being able, of their own accord, to control individual prices and incomes. In future, they must get the green light from the Prices and Incomes Board.
  This has been advanced as a virtue, but I feel that it ought at least to excite in us some consideration of just what the Board is now to become or, perhaps, has become. What the Board can examine is, in turn, determined by the Government, and determined by them with their knowledge of the staff and competence of the Board. I am sure that the Prices and Incomes Board was never designed so that it should become a mechanism of arbitration. It was never designed to become a mechanism of price control. It was never designed to be the sole regulatory power or sole regulatory valve for a prices and incomes policy in the next 12 months.
  I do not believe that that was ever in the mind of Mr. Aubrey Jones when he went to the office. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was."] If it was, I can only say that he had delusions of grandeur. [An HON. MEMBER: "He jolly well had."] This is developing into an ungenerous commentary on the Prices and Incomes Board

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  in terms of its personnel. I am not interested in that. What should concern us is the actual power of the Board and what we can expect of it.
  I put this to hon. Members opposite: how many cases can the Board possibly cope with with any degree of scholarship, skill and research in depth? I do not offer my comment. I offer a comment from the New Statesman, from an article by Mr. Arnold Strang in the current issue:
  "The Board, with its projected manpower strength and budget, will be able to deal with no more than 20 or so cases a year".
  If that is so, and bearing in mind that Mr. Jones himself has said that he wants to have an increasing rôle in the matter of prices, the number of wage cases which can conceivably be dealt with by the Board will be very limited.
  Do hon. Members for a moment doubt that, if the policy is to have any element of realism at all, what will be referred to the Board will have to be major trade union negotiated claims? Let no one doubt that, if the policy is to be meaningful, one's ability to identify a militant trade union, or possibly not even a militant one, but, at least, a trade union, will be a major factor in what is referred to Mr. Jones and his Board. All those employees who are nonunionised—and there are very many of them—will proceed safely in the knowledge that none of them will be selected for reference to the Prices and Incomes Board.
  We might ask ourselves who will be employed to carry out these researches in depth. Are hon. Members opposite so overwhelmed by the case made on wages in retail drapery that this is a development which they wish to see encouraged? We do not know who will investigate these cases. We know that it will not be Mr. Aubrey Jones and the small body of people visible to the public and the House. A firm of consultants will be hired to do the job.
  An American firm of consultants was used for the examination of newsprint prices, and in the case of bank charges a firm of foreign consultants was used. If the Board is to have this new quasi-arbitration rôle, perhaps determining what it thinks are to be superior systems of wage negotiation and bargaining, do hon.
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  Members opposite relish the prospect of American consultants being employed on this job? Does the experience of Roberts-Arundel, at Stockport, carry any message for the techniques of American management in this country and in this sphere? We should know whom Mr. Aubrey Jones will hire to carry out these surveys. If the cases which he will conduct are limited in number presumably the Government will attach immense significance to the conclusions.
  My second point concerns whether we should sanction the Bill because we believe that it will lead to a voluntary policy. The whole idea of a voluntary incomes policy is one on which we require considerable and detailed definition before we accept it as self-evidently good and to be applauded.
  We understand from the Prime Minister that this means that the T.U.C. will take greater powers of control and regulate the claims of the constituent unions. I wonder if that is a rôle that the House should willingly put upon the T.U.C. Presumably it will be done in the name of Government policy, and the conclusions reached will be presented to some extent as though this was the outcome of deliberate Government concern.
  Should the House willingly yield up these powers? I think not. This places on the T.U.C. intolerable burdens. First, there is the assumption that the existing pattern of income is fixed; in other words, that the distribution of total income as between employment income and other forms—self-employment, dividends, interest, rent, social security receipts, and so on—is fixed within those broad classifications and all that the T.U.C. has to do is to allocate the order of priorities for employment income. Does any member of the trade unions regard the present balance as fixed and permanent? I would not have thought so.
  I happen not to be a trade unionist, but I am much concerned with the reality of any policy which proceeds from legislation here. If the T.U.C. has one interpretation and the Government, perhaps unconsciously, have another, only a nonsense will follow, and it carries with it all the seeds of destruction so eloquently referred to by the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen, with whose speech I found myself in overwhelming agreement.

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  There is a number of cases one can make on the question of whether or not the T.U.C. is in a position to supervise a policy on behalf of the Government. I wish to give just one or two quotations, first from what Mr. David Currie, President of the Clerical and Administrative Workers' Union said at the union's annual conference at Margate a short while ago. The Financial Times reported:
  "Referring to the T.U.C.'s proposals to run its own incomes policy, Mr. Currie said: 'We cannot say that Congress will succeed in applying such a policy. We do not know if it has the skill, the knowledge and the authority to make it work'".
  The report added:
  "Mr. Currie pointed out that the T.U.C. entered this field with substantial weaknesses. It represented only about one in three of employed people and about one in five non-manual workers."
  We have seen what a virile trade union leader like Mr. Clive Jenkins will do in the circumstances of the past 12 months. I cannot imagine what he will do if he is expected to obey the advice handed down by the T.U.C. Actually, as any regular reader of Tribune will know, he has told us that as far as he is concerned a T.U.C. sub-contracted incomes policy is a non-starter.
  Take it a stage further. What are we to do about prices? Are they to have differential treatment from incomes? Are the Government proposing that we should try to encourage trade associations to take an active rôle in the pricing structure of their members? If so, why have we been spending I do not know how many years trying to break down the paraphernalia of trade association price control and price rings inherited from conditions of the 'thirties? Are we to reverse this whole process, sanctified by some sort of view that we are promoting a voluntary prices structure?
  These are the issues to which the House must address itself, not in a spirit of partisanship, but with complete, total and ruthless realism, because to believe that a voluntary policy has a hope of succeeding is to encourage people to believe in the moon. It has no hope at all as long as one gives people their capacity for independent action. If one believes that all the maverick trade unions and employers must then be brought into conformity and the safety of a comprehensive and universal trade
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  union and employer system, one is moving nearer to the corporate State than I believe anybody in this country is prepared to accept.
  It is comparatively easy to make the kind of critical speech which I have made tonight. However, I have never disguised from the House my view that the most important item in the control of the economy is to get the aggregate level of demand right. For that reason I was pleased to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his July measures. I am now pleased to offer this advice to him: that he should keep a steady nerve and, above all, resist any siren calls for early reflation. He should not be unsettled by the taunts that he is held in thrall by the Treasury or banking community. The greatest danger we face is early reflation. This morning's news in the Financial Times, under the heading "Sensible Advice to Governments", refers to the annual Report of the Bank for International Settlements. It contains points on which we should ponder with special care, for it comments:
  "The section on Britain concludes with a sentence to which the Chancellor would be well advised to play the closest attention, all the more so in the light of the measures announced in the past few days to stimulate consumer demand. Since, the Bank says, a longer-term easing of the balance of payments constraint is directly linked with private investment, it is important that private sector spending is tailored to make room for the recovery in business spending when that occurs."
  Inasmuch as the Chancellor has been the recipient of a good deal of criticism—and advice, proferred under the guise of an alternative policy—from the point of view of this Measure, he should not continue the process of encouraging the public to believe that there is contained in this House or in Whitehall, or in whatever businesses or trade unions the Government can get to co-operate, a skill and power which enable us to identify the key prices and incomes and then to try and influence them.
  Ultimately, the character of this country depends on the high street, the shop floor and boardroom and not on the lobbies of Westminster or the corridors of Whitehall.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. Trevor Park: If the right hon. Member for

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  Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) detected a lack of enthusiasm in the House for some of his remarks, I assure him that he was not mistaken, particularly since he was engaged in the fascinating, but rather indiscreet, practice of letting the cat out of the bag. The way in which he did so, with respect to future Conservative policy, dismayed some of his hon. Friends as much as it confirmed some of mine in their suspicions about what the Conservative Party would do if ever it was returned to power.
  I say frankly that if the only alternative to what the Government are now proposing was the policy which hon. Gentlemen opposite have put forward, then I would support the Government the whole way, for the Opposition remedy, as described by the right hon. Member for Mitcham, would be ten times worse than the disease. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have learned nothing, and have forgotten nothing, about their 13 years in office. If they were returned to power and attempted to put into practice some of the proposals about which they have spoken today, the outlook for industrial peace would be dark indeed.
  I do not believe that the Opposition's alternative is the only alternative to the present incomes policy. There is another and better one, as described in part by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner). It is almost 12 months since I withheld my support from the Government on Second Reading of the first Bill of this kind. I expressed the view at that time that it was ill-conceived, that it would result in a state of affairs which would embitter relationships between trade unionists, employers and the Government and that once the Government had started along the path of legal restraint and punitive sanctions they would be forced to go further along that road until, in the end, the only way to achieve their objective would be to challenge the whole basis of collective bargaining and to seek to substitute for it a system of authoritarian incomes control. A month later, when Part IV was added, it seemed than the warnings which some of my hon. Friends and I had given were already coming true. By
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  that addition, the Government took a further big step forward in the direction of compulsory wage control.
  I am delighted to find that, just in time, the Government are now pulling back from the brink and that the notions which were canvassed in high circles a few months ago are being decisively repudiated by the Government. They have been forced to recognise by experience what they refused to concede to argument, and if the wage freeze has had some success in preventing incomes from rising, it has not been the result of Part IV, even less the consequences of its punitive provisions, but, as the Government recognise, the consequences of two factors, both of which are rapidly ceasing to be relevant. First there has been the phase of deflation, stagnant growth and rising unemployment which the Chancellor has assured us is now coming to an end, and, secondly, the voluntary self-sacrifice and restraint on the part of the vast majority of trade unions and trade union members during the period of the economic crisis.
  After nearly a year's bitter experience, self-sacrifice and restraint are now wearing a bit thin. Trade union leaders cannot be expected to hold their part of the bargain indefinitely when the Government, through their failure to maintain price stability and to keep full employment, are falling down on their side of the undertaking about what the results of restraint would be.
  The Government are right to recognise that, in these circumstances, any future hope for incomes policy must depend on voluntary means and cannot be brought about by legislative measures, and this is true if only because any attempt to proceed further along the path of coercion would involve certain confrontation not with a few recalcitrants, but with the whole organised trade union movement.
  I believe that the prospects for an effective voluntary incomes policy are very much better than they were some time ago. I disagree, therefore, with the remarks just made by the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen). The T.U.C. report, adopted overwhelmingly at the conference of trade union executives on 2nd March, provides an excellent opportunity for the Government to get themselves off the hook by acknowledging that

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  here is the authority and machinery to bring about by voluntary means the changes which are needed, and they should embrace the T.U.C. proposals with open arms.
  Here, for the first time—and let us not minimise its importance—trade unions are freely giving up attributes of individual sovereignty to a central trade union organisation. The central organisation is taking on itself the responsibility of charting priorities in wage bargaining, priorities which the whole of the trade union movement will be invited to accept—and all this will take place with full consultation with the Government and after the most careful consideration of the Government's attitude and advice. What more do the Government want? How much more consistent with their own independent existence can the trade unions afford to give them?
  I do not believe the Bill possesses one-tenth of the potential effectiveness of the T.U.C.'s proposals. If it is intended to assert Government policy on incomes in face of trade union opposition, then it does not go far enough and the seven months' delay without any control over retrospective claims will combine the maximum of irritation with the minimum of impact.
  But if that is not the Government's intention, if the Bill is intended to serve, as my right hon. Friend said, as a bridge between the Government's earlier championship of coercion and their new acceptance of a voluntary policy, they should be reminded that it is the kind of bridge which, in its statement of 2nd March, the T.U.C. categorically and unambiguously repudiated.
  If the Government wish by the Bill to retain a reserve of power to deal with recalcitrants who do not accept the advice of the T.U.C., I would urge them again to consider carefully the remarks of Mr. George Woodcock on this theme. Speaking at the conference of national executives, he had this to say:
  "The Government say to us, 'Your scheme sounds all right, but what do you do with your recalcitrants?' I ask them: 'What do you do with our recalcitrants? Are you going to send them to prison?'. This, of course, is the implication of legislation. Well, you will not deal with recalcitrants by sending them to prison. I have not been able to guarantee that we shall see that everybody fits neatly into line. All that I say is that to ask
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  for everybody to fit neatly into line is to ask something that is impossible for anybody. I do not think that the whole world comes to an end or that the incomes policy goes up the spout because someone happens to get away with a little bit. If incomes policy is not big enough, if its purpose, if its objective, if the way it is going generally, is not big enough to enable us to carry on over those little humps, then we had better not start at all."
  Those were the words of Mr. Woodcock and I recommend them for consideration of the Government even at this late hour. By introducing the Bill at this time the Government are jeopardising the chances of success of that same voluntary policy which they are claiming to support.
  I pray in aid again the words of the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress. The House will forgive me for quoting Mr. Woodcock a second time, but he has been mentioned on a number of occasions and not every mention has accorded correctly with what he has said on this point:
  "I can see the dangers to our policy in this situation, where the Government retain their legal powers under Part II slightly extended, at a time when we are seeking to operate an entirely voluntary scheme. Clearly you would be blind if you did not see the dangers, because one thing is certain, one thing is known of all trade unions—it is one of our many good characteristics—that we prefer to deal with the people in whom the ultimate power rests. We do not like to go a circuitous route to come to the final conclusion … if that happens, then the point and purpose that I see in this conference will be vitiated, because we want from this conference the authority to get on with the job, which means we want the co-operation, the willingness of trade unionists genuinely to come to the T.U.C. Of course, if they think coming, even with the best will in the world, does not take them to a conclusion, then there is a danger that they may not come to us."
  Here is a Bill which is too weak to stand on its own, yet strong enough, if it is brought into frequent use, to sabotage the only alternative policy which can hold out any hopes of success. I have no doubt that I shall be told that the Bill applies to prices as well as to incomes and that if I withhold my support I am denying the Government the right to take effective action in the prices field.
  I would like to answer that challenge. What does this Bill do in the prices field? Does it learn from the ineffectiveness of prices legislation during the last 12 months? Does it establish an effective machinery for price stabilisation of key commodities at national and local level?

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  Does it in any way seek to eliminate, or even reduce, the numerous loopholes for increases which are allowed under the terms of paragraph 10 of the latest White Paper? Does it take any effective action about increases in rents, or rates, or bus fares, or, for that matter, electricity charges? We all know that it does not, and its silence on these matters condemns these provisions of the Bill to utter ineffectiveness.
  We are faced with a paradoxical position. On incomes, where legislation cannot work and for which an alternative voluntary policy exists, the Government persist with legislative methods; on prices, where there is no sign of a voluntary agreement and where effective legislation is the only way in which to secure stabilisation, the Government make no move to acquire the kind of powers which are urgently necessary.
  I beg the Government, even at this late stage, to look at this matter again. The Bill is ineffective, irrelevant and potentially harmful. I do not believe that I would be doing my duty by my constituents, by my party, or by my conscience if I were to give it my support in the Lobby tonight.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: In the few minutes left to me I should like briefly to deal with the problems facing the country. This has been more of a debate on the economic situation than on the Prices and Incomes Bill, but we have been considering something which has worried Parliament ever since the war. Before the war, the country was greatly exercised dealing with trade cycles and the unemployment which they caused, but since the war that problem has been replaced by that of economic growth and how best to control it without running into deflation, or even devaluation.
  Every time we have had a period of three or four years of growth and rising prosperity, the Government have suddenly decided to put on the brakes and to stop the economy. Shortly after I came to the House my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) introduced the regulator. He talked of controlling the boom which had occurred in the previous two
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  or three years and which was leading to an over-heating of the economy and to rising prices so that British goods were being priced out of world markets.
  My right hon. and learned Friend applied certain controls to the economy. Taxation was increased, the most direct and traditional method; interest rates were raised, and he used regulators, such as hire-purchase restrictions and restraints, like those being used today, and increased Purchase Tax, particularly on luxury goods, while the Bank of England demanded special deposits from the joint stock banks. To that list of weapons the present Government have added Selective Employment Tax.
  For all the good these measures could have done in controlling prosperity, they could be wiped out overnight by extravagant wage demands, and this led the Government to try a prices and incomes policy. The great difficulty with such a policy is enforcement. What sanction can be used against individual workers or trade unions who refuse to accept restraint on their wages? How can they be punished if they do not play the game?
  But all these methods have missed the target. This country should be concerned with higher rather than lower output. Increased output in the motor car and other industries is the only way to reduce unit costs. With greater productivity, we must attack restrictive practices in industry, whether of management or unions. Any effort to retain over-manning, any conservatism, must be attacked.
  At the same time, international liquidity should be improved. With under-developed areas in Africa, South America, India and the Far East, it is clear that the capacity to consume manufactured products is great, but the world lacks the required liquidity and much more attention should be given to increasing it, so that the increased output in our factories can be consumed and our exports increased. One step would be to lower tariffs, carrying G.A.T.T. a stage further. Whether we get into the Common Market or not, surely there is scope here, in one of the most protected countries in Europe, to lower tariffs.
  For greater activity in the economy, taxes should be lowered, which would give the incentive for increased productivity. Workers would no longer be

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  afraid of working themselves out of a job or of losing a job by giving up restrictive practices.
  Something which greatly concerns me is the decision of hon. Members opposite in similar debates at the mention of profits. Why should we be so afraid of profits? Have we no confidence in our workpeople? There are a few "dynamos", people who can contribute something. The great majority even of hon. Members are doing a job which many others can do, but few can contribute something special to society, and unless they get a proper reward, they will not exert themselves. If young, they will go abroad for better rewards and, if older, they will reduce their activity.
  Therefore, one solution to our problems is to lower taxes. I am not so afraid of inflation as many hon. Members. We must give the entrepreneur encouragement to invest. He must be sure that his goods and his investment in capital equipment, which will increase his output, will lead to increased consumption and that the demand for his goods will be solid and resilient.
  Therefore, I believe that a degree of controlled inflation, which would be no greater than in other developed countries, is necessary to encourage some members of the community to invest and build up savings and others to increase their capital equipment and machinery. We must have faith in Britain. The theme of this debate and the Bill shows a deplorable lack of confidence in the English working man's good sense, industry, ingenuity and ability to produce goods competitively.
  This is why I deplore and cannot support the Bill and suggest that a complete new look at Government policy on both sides of the House is called for if Britain is to make her way in the world and keep up with what hon. Members opposite used to call the league tables when they compared our performance with that of Germany, Japan and other countries. We can do it, but this Bill is not the way.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: I apologise to the House for the fact that in the middle of the debate I had to be absent. However, as I more or less take a permanent lease of this Box between June and July, perhaps the House bore that with fortitude.
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  I begin with what may seem a dull legal matter, but I think it is of great importance. I have given the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster notice of it. It concerns the question of Parliamentary control over Orders which can be made under the Bill.
  As I understand it, there are three ways in which the Secretary of State can make Orders. The first is under Clause 1(2,b), which extends the standstill to six months. Paragraph 4 of the Schedule makes it clear, although I should like it confirmed, that such Orders are subject to the negative procedure. The right hon. Gentleman can make Orders under Clause 3(1). It is doubtful in this case if the negative procedure is applied by paragraph 4 of the Schedule. Obviously one should be able to pray against all Orders made under the Bill, and this Clause deals with the imposition of standstill after the publication of the Board's report. Lastly, the right hon. Gentleman can make Orders under paragraph 2(1,b) of the Schedule, which can revoke or vary downwards only the period of standstill provision. As I read the Bill, there is no power to pray there at all.
  I hope that the Chancellor of the Duchy will be able to answer these points. It seems clear to me that there should be Parliamentary control over all powers to legislate by delegation in such an important Bill as this.
  When the First Secretary made his statement on 17th April, my question and, I thought, his answer were quite specific. I said:
  "Lastly, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether all the Orders made under the new Bill will be subject to negative Resolution of the House of Commons?".
  His answer was that the Order
  "would be subject to the negative Resolution procedure".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1967; Vol. 745, c. 94.]
  I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would clear up that matter.
  We have occupied some time in praying against Orders under the Prices and Incomes Act. I find myself, in company with the hon. Members for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) and other well-known Tories, in opposition to such Orders. I make it clear—and I say this as much for my own protection as for theirs—that, although we may object to the Bill, we

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  do so for entirely different reasons. I think that very few of them would agree, although I agree, with the objectives put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr). My view, which was expressed by the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner), is that the Government have elevated prices and incomes policy to a quite ridiculous extent and that it should form, as my right hon. Friend put it, a minor part of the armoury of those responsible for running the economy.
  I wish to take up briefly and in passing—because this is something which comes over and over again into these debates—an intervention by the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) in which he referred to the treatment of the nurses under a previous policy. Both sides of the House cherish their political myths, and this is one of them, but it is as well that we should dispose of it.
  My right hon. Friend was right in the brief comment which he made in reply, but I should like to put the facts on record. In 1962, the offer of the management side was 2½ per cent.—not nil—in accordance with the norm. That was rejected, as was the second offer. The matter was then referred to the Industrial Court in July 1962. The award in September 1962 was 7½ per cent. back-dated to 1st April, and a further award of another 6¼ per cent. was agreed in April 1963. There was no nil norm. There was an offer. There was arbitration available, and, in fact, a large increase was awarded.
  None of these things could have happened under the present policy, and there is no similarity between the treatment of the nurses or any other body of workers under previous Administrations and policies and those which, regrettably, we have seen recently. I hope that we shall hear no more of that story.
  I want to start the short examination which I shall make of the Bill with the opening sentence of an article in New Statesman this week which has been referred to already:
  "Mr. Michael Stewart's experienced team of embalmers moved in on the corpse of incomes policy this week with the Prices and Incomes Bill, Mark Two. Their unctions and ointments equip the deceased for temporary public display, but cannot long delay a decent
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  funeral, if only in the interest of public hygiene."
  If I may say so, that seems to be admirably put, and it is the view of many people on both sides of the House.
  We are discussing the Prices and Incomes (No. 2) Bill as part of a prices and incomes policy, but hon. Gentlemen opposite have always tried to put the accent on prices. The first Secretary will remember that almost all the Questions which he had on 17th April emphasised this point, and it was emphasised again today by the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) and other hon. Members.
  The reason is obvious. If wages are frozen or held back and prices continue to rise, ordinary people are caught in the trap and suffer both ways. "So", says the party opposite, "let us have price control".
  I believe that we should say quite clearly that this is absolutely meaningless, that it is impossible of achievement, and, in any event, is aimed at the wrong target. The right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) wrote recently:
  "Price control by voluntary means or otherwise is probably impossible without choking retail trade with price lists and red tape."
  In the debate of last October, Mr. Frank Cousins said much the same about the retail trade, but argued that there could be some control over raw material prices. However, that is not possible since, in most cases, we do not control the factors which in turn control the price of those raw materials.
  In that same debate, I said:
  "If the proposals in relation to wages are foolish, the proposal in relation to prices is both perverse and illiterate. It is shooting at the wrong target. It is dealing with the symptoms and not with the disease. It is trying to cure the spots and not trying to cure the measles It is forgetting something that was wisely said recently in the Wall Street Journal:
  'Price increases cause inflation no more than wet pavements cause rain'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th October, 1966; Vol. 734, c. 866.]
  The Government know this: yet, as with the laundries, from time to time they have thrown and will continue to throw an odd bone to their supporters, if that be are right term for those who sit behind them. The position simply is that the back benches are being "conned" about prices, and they will go

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  on being "conned". They will go on grumbling and, when they have grumbled enough and collected enough signatures, they will be thrown one more bone to keep them quiet for another few weeks until, finally, they come to the conclusion that they ought to abandon a statutory incomes policy. Indeed, it would be wise if they did it now.
  The Bill requires little comment. It follows the statement of the First Secretary on 17th April, with the addition of Clause 5. It really is ludicrous that we have to take up the time of the House to thwart the activities of Mr. Clive Jenkins on behalf of his members, and if the Court of Appeal so decides in the present case we will have to reverse the law so that £20 instead of £21 will be paid to those for whom the assiduous Mr. Jenkins is acting.
  Yet this Clause is no more ludicrous than those in the Act. It is entitled:
  "Protection of employers who have withheld pay increases before July 1967."
  Section 28 of the Act is entitled, "Restrictions on pay increases" and Section 30 is entitled:
  "Authority for employers to disregard pay increases in existing contracts."
  The one which I should have thought was most offensive to everybody is Section 31, which starts with the words:
  "So long as this Part of this Act is in force, Section 11(4) of the Wages Councils Act, 1959, shall not impose a duty on the Minister of Labour (in this section called 'the Minister') to make an order giving effect to any wages regulation proposals …"
  No Tory Administration ever dreamed of such proposals, and if it had the barricades would have been manned by every Member opposite, and they know it, from the Front Bench to the last, and no one would have manned the barricades more eagerly than those who in half an hour will troop docilely into the Government Lobby.
  The chosen vehicle for all this is the Prices and Incomes Board, and I propose to quote a sentence, with which I agree, in an article by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), which appeared in the Daily Telegraph of 5th June. Perhaps I might in passing take up my hon. Friend's comment that there was not an incomes policy in 1957–58. I agree that an incomes policy means
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  different things to different people, but I should have thought that the beginnings of one was there. There was the price plateau, the three wise men, the guiding light, and the rest of it, and this dates back to about 1955. My hon. Friend said in that article:
  "Now that trade unionists openly question the practicability—let alone the desirability—of the Prices and Incomes Board becoming an arbitrating and wage-fixing body, surely many others will want to know what unique concentration of talent enables this modest team to hand down the tablets …"
  We are told that in all, counting clerks, messengers, and everything else, they are 128 strong, and that they can cope with 20 subjects a year. It is therefore clear that quite apart from what happens in future, they are hopelessly overloaded, and although I have a personal regard for Aubrey Jones I believe that no man in this country is fitted for the task that is being put on the Chairman of the Board by successive acts of Government policy in this field. The only sensible way is between partners to a bargain, with the Government if they must—and we did this—with some proper diffidence, because this is a very difficult field, indicating their view of what total burden can be carried.
  This Board on which we are now going to rely has produced a number of reports which vary from the superficial, through useful, to the pontifical. One of the most important reports was the attempt to define lower-paid workers. I acknowledge that this is very dear to the hearts of hon. Gentlemen opposite if it can be done, but what did Mr. Awbrey Jones come up with as a solution? His solution resulted in a recommendation for paying all retail drapery trade workers below the basic minimum which had been suggested by the wages council. Not surprisingly that recommendation was ignored by the Government, who then confirmed the original wages council award. Where are we now in relation to lower-paid workers? There is no definition that anyone can accept. This part of the First Secretary's policy has no validity at all.
  The other leg is supposed to be productivity. Apparently Mr. Aubrey Jones is to give some guide lines to the Government on the way in which to assess genuine productivity. I quote as an

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  example, Sir Paul Chambers, speaking to the Royal Statistical Society. He said:
  "No method of measuring productivity of as a whole, or of a division, has been devised which is meaningful, of practical use and reasonably simple to compile."
  If I.C.I. cannot do it with all its resources it will be interesting to see what sort of job Mr. Aubrey Jones makes of this proposal.
  A principal objection which is held naturally most strongly by hon. Members opposite is that this policy particularly affects trade unionists. This was the reality of the exchange between the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) and my right hon. Friend. Neither he nor my right hon. Friend nor myself would suggest that trade unionists should leave their unions because of their temporary or permanent disagreement with the Government's policy. It is also true that the Government do not, by design, discriminate against trade unionists—but it happens all the same. It happened most clearly, as the House will recall, in the S.O.G.A.T. debate, when a trade union leader came to see me and told me that some of his members were thinking of leaving that union for precisely the reason that emerged in earlier speeches tonight.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour challenges this and thinks he has a case. In my opinion there is clear, if unintentional—and it is not disputed that it is unintentional—discrimination, for more than one reason. First, claims by non-unionist labour—and those are the large majority—are largely unsupervised. Secondly, D.E.A. orders, for obvious reasons, affect those who organise the bargains. The others come in on the back of these agreements and often take the benefit of them. This is one of the strongest arguments for trade unionism. Thirdly, salary increases are simply left to exhortation.
  We must remember that the whole policy was sold to the trade unions as an alternative to deflation and heavy unemployment—and now we have all three. Unemployment—including unemployment in the regions—is worse at all stages than in previous cycles. The figure started from exactly the same point. Unemployment in Scotland between July 1961 and May 1962 rose by 27 per cent., whereas be-
  428
  tween last July and this May it rose by 51 per cent.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: Give us the figures.
  Mr. Macleod: They started from exactly the same point. I will give the hon. Member the figures from memory, but I am sure they are right. One period started with the figure of 260,000 unemployed and the other with the figure of 264,000. There is virtually no difference between the two, so the rise is strictly comparable.
  Mr. Manuel: The right hon. Gentleman referred to Scotland. For the period that he is mentioning there is no comparison, because instead of the 80,000 at present at that time it was 160,000.
  Mr. Macleod: I know that quite well. If the hon. Member only realised it, that strengthens my case, because that was in the second year of the squeeze and the winter is coming.
  In Wales the comparable figures are 48 per cent. and 72 per cent. It is very difficult to see that any real good has come out of this incomes policy. The main object of the exercise, and a very laudable one, was an improvement in the long-term balance of payments prospect. We have not seen any fundamental improvement in this direction. It is not the absolute level of wages, or even of prices, that is the key, but productivity. And it is not artificial restraint that is needed first, but the provision of incentives.
  The alternative is always described by the Government as a free-for-all. This is the dreaded jungle to which we must not return. But what is the free-for-all? It is the system of free collective bargaining which, until last July, the Labour Party was proud of having helped to create. That is what the free-for-all is. It is a system which, with all its faults, has been very widely admired and copied in other countries.
  This is the Goebbels technique—the Nasser technique, to be more topical: if you repeat something untrue long enough some people will fall for it. They have all fallen for this stuff about the free-for-all. The free-for-all is such a phrase. It suits the Government to damn what once they praised, and once more some people are falling for it.

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  When this seemingly endless story—it is like the Forsyte Saga—of the Government's income policy will cease, no one is to know. Part IV lapses in August 1967 and a strengthened Part II is introduced—against the advice of the C.B.I., against the advice of the T.U.C., and against the advice, I would be confident, on a free vote, of the great majority of the House of Commons.
  The powers of the new Bill, to which we are invited tonight to give a Second Reading, will lapse in August 1968, though some Orders made under it will go on for six months to February 1969. But what then? We have been given no undertaking whatever by the First Secretary. He has been absolutely frank with us, and I acknowledge it. It may be that Part II will come back in its original form and that can be extended from 12 months to 12 months into the future. It may be that in the end some even less acceptable form of compulsion will be found.*
  Let me put on record, out of the Prime Minister's own mouth, what has happened, and the House can judge whether or not it has been deceived. The first quotation was given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham, and my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) said "Read it again". It should be read again. It should be read at Morning Service and Evensong every day until the next election.
  During the election campaign, the Prime Minister said on 10th March, 1966:
  "I don't think you can ever legislate for wage increases, and no Party is setting out to do that … once you have the law prescribing wages I think you're on a very slippery slope. It would be repugnant I think to all Parties in this country."
  That is what the right hon. Gentleman said then, but when he saw the President of the United States in Washington on 29th July, he said:
  "We have taken steps which have not been taken by any other democratic government in the world. We are taking steps with regard to prices and wages which no other government, even in wartime, has taken."
  If that had been said in March instead of in July, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen would be sitting on this side instead of filling the Government benches.
  On legislation, the Prime Minister, introducing his statement on 20th July, said:
  *Note: See col. 573
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  "It is not our intention to introduce elaborate statutory controls over incomes and prices."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th July, 1966; Vol. 732, c. 636.]
  That is what he said—Part IV is what he did.
  On legislation, let us notice, first, the promise to the people given to the B.B.C. in "24 Hours". He was asked:
  "When the powers of the Act come to an end in August, Prime Minister, won't there have to be a continuation of them?"
  The Prime Minister replied:
  "In terms of legislative powers, no …'
  What are we doing this evening except continuing such powers? This is part of the technique. Once more one gets the cover plan, but it is the small print which later becomes the official doctrine.
  Speaking at Greenford on 4th March last, the Prime Minister said:
  "Failure now could mean the return to reliance on statutory provisions which neither the trade union movement nor the Government wants."
  So it is there, and when this present Measure lapses and something else is put in its place and the Prime Minister is accused, as he will rightly be accused, of a breach of faith, he will say, as he has said so often, "I warned you. I told you. Here it is in my speech at Green-ford on 4th March." Look closely at the small print and one can find it.
  How can one trust a Prime Minister who says such things and acts so differently? He will not apologise—he never does. We saw that again this afternoon. But he has once more deceived the House and the country. The Bill is useless and unfair. The policy on which it is based has failed and is failing. We shall oppose the Bill at all stages.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Frederick Lee): The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) gave me notice that he would ask the point which he first mentioned about Clause 1(2,b), Clause 3(1) and Clause 2(1,b). He is right in his belief that the negative Resolution procedure is applicable to Clauses 1 and 3, but not to Clause 2. The standstill imposed under Clause 2 has the effect of suspending an increase in a price or a charge or the implementation of an award or settlement either at the time of reference to the Board or after reference to the Board but

  431
  before publication of the Board's report. If, at a later stage, a direction has to be issued, that will then become liable for the same negative Resolution procedure as will Clauses 1 and 3. Therefore, the parliamentary cover will apply at a later stage.
  The debate has produced a very remarkable situation. Despite the fact that the right hon. Member for Enfield, West decried the Bill itself, he did not say that the Tory Party opposes a prices and incomes policy. Does he wish to say so now? [HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it."] In other words, a party which itself, when in office, attempted to introduce a prices and incomes policy, and did it in such a ham-handed manner that it failed dismally, cannot very well now decry a Government who introduce a prices and incomes policy.
  Each of the political parties has pronounced in favour of an effective voluntary prices and incomes policy as one of a number of instruments to assist in our economic recovery. I shall return to the point of the other instruments, because many hon. Members have suggested that the Government are relying only on the prices and incomes policy, but this is not so. I take it that the whole House is united in believing that the country requires an effective incomes policy. Indeed, outside the House the great industrial organisations within the T.U.C. and the C.B.I., and other organisations which are not affiliated to either of those bodies, are also in favour of an effective voluntary prices and incomes policy. Yet tonight, on the rather frivolous grounds which the right hon. Gentleman has just been basing his argument, the Opposition will divide the House against the Bill. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members who have not listened to the debate might at least listen to the winding-up speech.
  Mr. Lee: Therefore, the only difference between the parties, a difference which I assure the House we do not find in our discussions with the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. is that, whereas the Tories argue that a voluntary policy must have no fallback powers, however small and temporary they may be, we believe that it is both unreasonable and certainly unsafe at this time to deprive the nation of a safeguard
  432
  against a small breakaway from the voluntary principle which, if it were unchecked, would merely encourage many of those who now accept the voluntary principle itself to forswear that attitude.
  If we are to engage, as I thought the right hon. Gentleman was, in a contest to prove the purity of our devotion to the voluntary principle, it is interesting to see how the Opposition have already got themselves into a considerable contradiction by their own actions. As the right hon. Gentleman said, they have opposed every Order which we have introduced under the 1966 Act. One would have thought that those who advocate an entirely voluntary policy at this stage would be the first to condemn those who break the voluntary nature of the present arrangements. But, instead of doing that, the Opposition have sought to condone every breach of the voluntary policy.
  The obvious outcome of a defence of those who gain an unfair advantage from the voluntary actions of others is to discourage the volunteer and to discredit the voluntary system, which, the Opposition say, is the only one which they favour. In the debates on the Prayers which the Opposition put down against the Orders, neither in their speeches to which I listened nor in the ones I have read in HANSARD did I find a word of condemnation of those who broke the voluntary system or a word of praise for the vast majority of people who maintained it.
  When they were in power, right hon. and hon. Members opposite tried to introduce a prices and incomes policy, but they failed. Because of the way in which this Government, on the other hand have carried through their approach to prices and incomes, there is the maximum agreement within the great organisation of labour. There is in this House acceptance of the need for a prices and incomes policy. It seems to me, therefore, that this debate and the Division to follow have been taken merely as an opportunity for the Opposition to make any political capital they can out of the economic problems of the nation.
  Within Britain there is very little disagreement about it. There is no disagreement about the need for the Government to concern themselves with the attainment of the objectives of the policy,

  433
  not leaving everything to be settled by sectional interests regardless of the national interest. There have been references to the T.U.C. statement on policy from the conference of executives on 2nd March, 1967. Here is another quotation from it:
  "What trade unions and employers do in the field of wage and salary negotiations can affect the achievement of national economic and social objectives. Governments are entitled and, indeed, required to ensure that the attainment of those objectives is not jeopardised by selfish pursuit of sectional aims."
  What is at issue is not whether there is to be reliance on a voluntary policy, but whether there is to be some means, for a transitional period, of ensuring that the selfish pursuit of sectional aims is not given a free rein to destroy the voluntary principle, which, I believe, we all accept. This applies not only to wages, where the T.U.C.'s most commendable efforts to develop the vetting system are of such great importance. It must also apply to wages and salaries, including those of the large number of people who do not come within the T.U.C.'s arrangements.
  My right hon. Friend pointed out at the beginning of the debate that here we have a situation in which the T.U.C. is taking a most responsible attitude and is now agreeing, in the interests of the nation as a whole, to vet the wage claims which its affiliated unions present to it. Unless there is legislation of the type we are indicating here those who are not affiliated to the T.U.C. will have an enormous advantage in that they would not be subjected to that vetting procedure.
  Understandably, many of my hon. Friends have been concerned about the prices issue. Unless we had this kind of legislation there would be no control over price rises. We assert again, as I have done before, that, taking into account the great pressures to which we have been subjected, we have had remarkable success in keeping down price rises.
  Mr. R. Carr: If the right hon. Gentleman says that these powers are needed to protect those unions that are affiliated to the T.U.C. and, therefore, must go through the vetting procedure, compared with those which are not, surely the powers will have to be permanent?
  Mr. Lee: I do not accept that. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the fact that the T.U.C. has a need to vet is a contravention of the voluntary principle? He cannot have it both ways. We contend that during this temporary period, the transitional period of what I have described as the movement from a period of Part IV to the period in which we are taking far less powers, it is absolutely essential that the instruments on which we shall rely implicitly when these powers lapse should have an opportunity to be strengthened during this interim period.
  Mr. R. Carr: The right hon. Gentleman may have misunderstood me. Surely, in a year's time, when the Bill lapses, so we are told, there will still be unions that are not affiliated to the T.U.C. and will, therefore, not be subject to the T.U.C. vetting procedure. Therefore, those unions subject to it will still need protection.
  Mr. Lee: We have a job to do with organisations representing the Civil Service and teachers and others which do not come within the provisions of the T.U.C. The Government are creating similar kinds of organisations which can use the same criteria as the T.U.C.'s vetting committee for these kinds of organisations outside their control.
  Mr. Biffen rose—
  Mr. Lee: A great deal of the legislation which we are suggesting on prices has been determined in conjunction with employers' organisations, with the C.B.I. in particular. When right hon. Gentlemen opposite try to give the impression that they are opposed to the idea of legislation, this is just not true. There was a period around March when both the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. were objecting to what they considered were powers which were too great.
  Sir E. Brown rose—
  Mr. Lee: In the meantime, we have had discussions with both the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. and we are agreed that these temporary powers are necessary for the next 12 months.
  One hon. Member asked my right hon. Friend whether the provisions in Clause 5 could be used in respect of cases which are now before the courts. The

  435
  answer is "No". Those cases begun prior to 5th June are not in any way covered by this legislation.
  Some of my hon. Friends have asked about the number of references to the Board in respect of prices. They have the feeling that we have been too soft about price increases. There have been 54 references since the inception of the Board, and 21 of those have been in respect of prices or fees. In a great many cases where the Board of Trade or Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have had approaches from traders desiring to increase prices, considerable success has been achieved, either in getting the traders in question to agree not to proceed with their price proposals or in getting them to agree to take less of an advance than they were originally proposing.
  A great many traders will not risk going to the Board. Naturally, if they are turned down by the Board, that is not very good from their business point of view. It is, therefore, not the case that the difference in numbers as between incomes and prices references going to the Board has come about because of any softness on the part of the Government.
  Some hon. Members have suggested that the real need is to manage the level of demand and to take long-term measures to improve the economy. They said that the prices and incomes policy is no substitute for this. The Government certainly do not see the prices and incomes policy as a substitute for a wider strategy of management of the economy, but as an essential part of this strategy.
  The policy of the standstill and severe restraint was not confined to prices and incomes. It included a range of measures intended to reduce the pressure of demand in relation to our real resources. We have no intention of trying to operate the prices and incomes policy in a vacuum and we are pushing on with the other elements of our economic strategy.
  Reference has been made to the importance of the regional balance of employment. We have taken vigorous steps to improve this, notably through large investment grants for development areas. We are now proposing the introduction of the regional employment premium. A large increase in trading facilities in
  436
  the development areas has already occurred and further expansion is in train. The general movement of the economy in the coming months will not be such as to put heavy pressure on the labour market and this will be a factor influencing the approach of both employers and unions to the call for moderation over prices and incomes.
  We are looking closely at Government expenditure—a subject which has been the theme of a number of speeches—as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor explained in his Budget statement, bearing in mind the importance of having adequate resources available for necessary private investment as well as essential investment in the public sector.
  The encouragement of competitive efficiency is an important part of the strategy we are pursuing. This is not only a matter of the work of the Monopolies Commission and the Restrictive Practices Court. We are seeking, through the prices and incomes policy, to do a number of important things, and the process of the examination of industrial situations by the National Board for Prices and Incomes, the Report of which was published today in respect of productivity agreements, is a particularly important example.
  Indeed, after the remarks of the right hon. Member for Mitcham and the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Richard Wainwright), they may care to note that paragraph 181 of the Report states:
  "The rate of growth of productivity agreements will depend in our view upon the maintenance of a prices and incomes policy. All that we have had suggests that the effect of Government policy, especially since July, 1966 has been to direct the attention of both employers and trade unionists away from conventional bargaining and towards productivity bargaining. But since productivity agreements require time and effort, whereas conventional bargaining is easy, many of them might turn back if the pressure were removed."
  The hon. Member for Colne Valley, after saying how much the Liberal Party agreed with everything in the Bill, said that he and his hon. Friends would vote against it because, he said, we were not discouraging national bargaining. That did not seem a logical argument to me.
  The Report issued today demonstrates that since the Government began taking the actions I have been outlining, productivity bargaining has become a far bigger

  437
  element in our general industrial bargaining than ever before—so I take it that the Liberal Party will be voting with us tonight.
  The right hon. Member for Mitcham began by condemning legislation on prices and incomes. He went on to demand legislation for everything in the industrial spectrum, except prices and incomes. He completed his remarks by saying that if only the Government did all of those things, he would even accept legislation on prices and incomes.
  Mr. R. Carr Mr. R. Carr indicated dissent.
  Mr. Lee: That is what the right hon. Gentleman said.
  Mr. R. Carr rose—
  Mr. Lee: I will not give way.
  Hon. Members: Give way.
  Mr. R. Carr: When the right hon. Gentleman reads the report of my speech in tomorrow's HANSARD he will see that I said nothing of the kind. I am sure that he would not wish to misrepresent me.
  Mr. Lee: I will not withdraw anything I have said until I have read the right hon. Gentleman's remarks in the OFFICIAL REPORT. His words were within my hearing and what I have said was my impression of what the right hon. Gentleman said.
  The right hon. Member for Enfield, West referred to the notorious Selwyn Lloyd pay pause. That took place during the nine months July, 1961 to April, 1962. Comparisons were made with what had happened during the equivalent period of this year. During the period of that pause, weekly wage rates rose by 2·9 per cent. and retail prices by 4·5 per cent. During the equivalent period of nine months from July, 1966, to April, 1967, weekly wage rates rose by 1·3 per cent. and retail prices by 2·5 per cent. Unemployment now is far less than it was at one period when the right hon. Member for Enfield, West was Minister of Labour.
  The line of argument pursued by the Opposition would seem to be that a prices and incomes policy is something with which we have to put up, whether legislative or not, during a period of crisis. This is not our approach. The
  438
  right hon. Gentleman was telling us about free competitive collective bargaining, and so on. Do I understand that he is now going back on what the Tories have said and is advocating a free-for-all? That was the inference of his remarks.
  All the anomalies we now know so much about—the millions of low-paid workers and the obsolete wage structures—are products of so-called "free" collective bargaining. So long as that system obtained, we could never rid the nation of the inequalities suffered by millions of low-paid workers who, no matter how much they strove to increase their share of the national cake, could not do it.
  The coming of the Prices and Incomes policy is not merely something to bridge an economic crisis. It is something which we believe will lead to a far better redistribution of that portion of the national income which we can allocate to wages, salaries and so on. Therefore, I believe that, if we can get across to the nation the fact that, whereas a prices and incomes policy when it is used in a period of crisis must be the creature of that crisis, it is not the case that the restrictions that we have seen both during the period of the Selwyn Lloyd pay pause and during this period constitute a prices and incomes policy.
  I often get the feeling that it is really the economic problems themselves that people object to rather than the incomes policy which has to attune itself to them. It is to us a great encouragement that industry itself, so unlike the cynicism of the Opposition, is now convinced that, with the partnership we have established with it, we can make great progress in ensuring that the largest possible amount is available for distribution.
  Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that there is more for distribution now without creating inflation and a balance of payments problem than is being paid out? Is he saying that, if this legislation were not available, there would be scope for big increases which are being held back because of it? Did the Opposition not learn their lesson in office when, because of their lack of policies, they drove this nation to an annual deficit of £800 million on the balance of payments? If they have not learned that lesson, the nation will know that they are not fitted ever again to be the Government.

  439
  The Opposition have called in question the efficiency of this system. But today the balance of payments is in surplus. The Opposition left behind a deficit of £800 million. We have tried to create economic instruments that will ensure that the nation does not go back to that which we found when we took office. We are not relying merely on the prices and incomes policy. Within the economic strategy we are adopting, we believe that this policy is a very useful adjunct and that it can, by the way it is worked, bring about a greater redistribution of incomes and eliminate, as far as may be, in those areas where the low-paid people could never hope to gain more by free collective bargaining.
  If the Conservatives want to be alone in not accepting the need for a prices and incomes policy, so be it. But the fact that we have the great support of industry itself and, I believe, of the vast majority of the people, will ensure that we can go ahead with this policy and bring it to fruition.
  Mr. William Whitlock (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)Mr. William Whitlock (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
  Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 288. Noes 235.

  Division No. 363.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Albu, Austen

  Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

  Hamling, William

  Alldritt, Walter

  Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

  Hannan, William

  Allen, Scolefield

  Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

  Harper, Joseph

  Andereon, Donald

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Archer, Peter

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Armstrong, Ernest

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Haseldine, Norman

  Ashley, Jack

  Delargy, Hugh

  Hattersley, Roy

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

  Dell, Edmund

  Hazell, Bert

  Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

  Dempsey, James

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Dewar, Donald

  Henig, Stanley

  Barnes, Michael

  Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Barnett Joel

  Dobson, Ray

  Hilton, W. S.

  Baxter, William

  Doig, Peter

  Hooley, Frank

  Beaney, Alan

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Driberg, Tom

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Bence, Cyril

  Dunn, James A.

  Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Dunnett, Jack

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Howie, W.

  Binns, John

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Hoy, James

  Bishop, E. S.

  Eadie, Alex

  Huckfield, L.

  Blackburn, F.

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Boston, Terence

  English, Michael

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Ennals, David

  Hunter, Adam

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. Herbert

  Ensor, David

  Hynd, John

  Boyden, James

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Braddock, Mrs. E, M.

  Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

  Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Faulds, Andrew

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Brooks, Edwin

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Finch, Harold

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle upon-Tyne, W)

  Floud, Bernard

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Buchan, Norman

  Foley, Maurice

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Ford, Ben

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Grean)

  Forrester, John

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

  Cant, R. B.

  Fowler, Gerry

  Judd, Frank

  Carmichael, Neil

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Kelley, Richard

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

  Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

  Chapman, Donald

  Freeson, Reginald

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Coe, Denis

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Ledger, Ron

  Coleman, Donald

  Gardner, Tony

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Gineburg, David

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Gourlay, Harry

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Craddock, George(Bradford, S.)

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Cronin, John

  Gregory, Arnold

  Lipton, Marcus

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  Luard, Evan

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Orbach, Maurice

  Snow, Julian

  McBride, Neil

  Oswald, Thomas

  Spriggs, Leslie

  McCann, John

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

  Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  MacColl, James

  Owen, Will (Morpeth)

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

  MacDermot, Niall

  Padley, Walter

  Stonehouse, John

  Macdonald, A. H.

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  McGuire, Michael

  Paget, R. T.

  Swingler, Stephen

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Palmer, Arthur

  Symonds, J. B.

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Taverne, Dick

  Mackie, John

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

  Maclennan, Robert

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Thornton, Ernest

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Tinn, James

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Urwin, T. W.

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Pentland, Norman

  Varley, Eric G.

  Marion, Simon (Bootle)

  Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

  Walden, Brian (AH Saint)

  Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Manuel, Archie

  Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

  Wallace, George

  Mapp, Charles

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Marquand, David

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

  Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Randall, Harry

  Weitzman, David

  Mason, Roy

  Rankin, John

  Wellbeloved, James

  Maxwell, Robert

  Rees, Merlyn

  wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Whitaker, Ben

  Mellish, Robert

  Richard, Ivor

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Millan, Bruce

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

  Wisley, Rt. Hn, Frederick

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

  Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Molloy, William

  Roebuck, Roy

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

  Moonman, Eric

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Rose, Paul

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

  Winnick, David

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Sheldon, Robert

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Murray, Albert

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Woof, Robert

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Wyatt, Woolrow

  Oakes, Gordon

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Yates, Victor

  Ogden, Eric

  Skeffington, Arthur

  O'Malley, Brian

  Slater, Joseph

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Oram, Albert E.

  Small, William

  Mr. Charles Grey and

  Mr. William Whitlock.

  NOES

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Campbell, Gordon

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Forrest, George

  Astor, John

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Fortescue, Tim

  Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Foster, Sir John

  Awdry, Daniel

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G.

  Balniel, Lord

  Clark, Henry

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Clegg, Walter

  Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

  Batsford, Brian

  Cooke, Robert

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Cordle, John

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Corfield, F. V.

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

  Costain, A. P.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Bessell, Peter

  Crawley, Aldan

  Gower, Raymond

  Biffen, John

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver

  Grant, Anthony

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Crouch, David

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Crowder, F. P.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Cunningham, sir Knox

  Grieve, Percy

  Blaker, Peter

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Body, Richard

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Gurden, Harold

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Dance, James

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Davidson James (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. sir Edward

  Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Braine, Bernard

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Doughty, Charles

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. Sir Walter

  Drayson, G. B.

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Brown, Sir Edward(Bath)

  du cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Eden, Sir John

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Bryan, Paul

  Emery, Peter

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Hastings, Stephen

  Buck, Antony (Colchester)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hawkins, Paul

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Farr, John

  Hay, John

  Burden, F. A.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  442

  443

  Heseltine, Michael

  Maginnis, John E.

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

  Royle, Anthony

  Hiley, Joseph

  Marten, Neil

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Hill, J. E. B.

  Maude, Angus

  Scott, Nicholas

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Sharples, Richard

  Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Mawby, Ray

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Holland, Philip

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L, C.

  Smith, John

  Hornby, Richard

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Stainton, Keith

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Steel, David (Roxburgh)

  Hunt, John

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Stodart, Anthony

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Monro, Hector

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Tapsell, Peter

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Taylor, Frank, (Moss Side)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Teeling, Sir William

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Murton, Oscar

  Temple, John M.

  Jopling, Michael

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Neave, Airey

  Tilney, John

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Nott, John

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wainwright, Richard (Come Valley)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Knight Mrs. Jill

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Lambton Viscount

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Wall, Patrick

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Langford-Holt Sir John

  Percival, Ian

  Webster, David

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Peyton, John

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Turo)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Loveys, w. H.

  Pym, Francis

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Lubbock, Eric

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mac Arthur, Ian

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Wright, Esmond

  Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Wylie, N. R.

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Younger, Hn. George

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  McMaster, Stanley

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Mr. R. W. Elliott and

  Maddan, Martin

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Mr. Jasper More.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Wireless Telegraphy Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's sitting at any hour though opposed.—[Mr. Grossman.]

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  Mr. Speaker: The House will know that all the Amendments have been selected.
  10.12 p.m.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL

    New Clause.—(PROCEDURE FOR CHECKING OF TELEVISION LICENCES.)
    Not less than once per year the Postmaster-General shall—

    (a) cause to be made a list of all householders shown on Post Office records as not possessing a television licence;

    (b) cause a communication to be sent to such householders requiring confirmation that no television set is in use;

    (c) instruct Post Office staff to visit those householders from whom no satisfactory reply is received.—[Mr. Bryan.]

    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Paul Bryan: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
    I tried to deploy the arguments which I shall use now in the debate on Clause 2 stand part, in Committee, but was, from time to time, ruled out of order. This is possibly why the Postmaster-General did not answer them at length, although another reason is that he might genuinely have thought that they were not important.
    If the objective of Part I is to reduce licence evasion, this Clause is by far the most important of that Part of the Bill. My views have changed during the Bill's passage. Several differences between the right hon. Gentleman and myself came to light during the Second Reading debate. I shared his view that the prevention of evasion was a matter of determining, locating and punishing the law breakers and might be called a policing exercise. Particularly as a result of talks which I have had with provincial postmasters and their staffs, however, I
    446
    have come to consider it more as a straight, commercial, money-collecting exercise.
    Those who do not pay for their licences are breaking the law, but, from the reports of the Post Office investigators, one sees that, as a type, they are less like criminals than the slow payers which any commercial firm dealing with the public is experienced in handling. A percentage of the public do not pay their bills until someone asks for their money. They are not moved by postal reminders and certainly do not regard themselves as law breakers. Commercial firms know this and organise themselves to deal with the situation.
    We have been talking of television rental companies. If a company bought up a small, independent rental concern, it might find that 50 per cent. of the customers were behind with their payments. If it merely wrote them reminders, it would get virtually nowhere. Extra staff is normally needed to carry out a drive on the arrears on calling on the slow payers. After a month or two, when the percentage of arrears has been reduced to a normal level, the normal staff can keep it there.
    10.15 p.m.
    The more I talk to postmasters, the more it seems to me that the position with licence evasion is basically similar. But the steps taken to correct it are different and much less effective. The Post Office has a system of postal combing by which a regular letter, followed by a reminder if necessary, goes to every household without a licence. If these letters bring no result, a member of the Post Office calls on the house concerned. This task is well done, and I have absolutely no criticism of the members of the Post Office staff who carry it out. They carry it out with competence and certainly with great diligence. But the routine is followed only every four or five years. Once a street has been combed, a defaulter knows that he is safe for five years. This is the opposite of a deterrent.
    What is more, excellent though the Post Office staff may be, the number devoted to this task is insufficient to make sure that a household is persistently

    447
    called on until the householder is contacted. If any commercial firm chased its slow payers every four or five years, it would be out of business before it caught up with them.
    Ineffective as the present system is, I am bound to say that I treat it more seriously than the Postmaster-General. In Committee he said:
    "… combing … is something we do here and there every few years, at present. It is a sort of sampling of one town every five years, another every three years, another every five years, and so on."
    I am glad to say that what takes place is more effective than that.
    "Once we get the lists in under subsection (2) the job will begin and that will be a once-for-all job. The job under Clause 2 will be a continuous process."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee D, 2nd May, 1967, c. 65.]
    I concede at once that the lists made available through the Bill will be a help. But the Post Office will not have those lists for another 18 months, and when they come in they will cover only about 60 per cent. of the sets in use. If things are allowed to take the course suggested by the Postmaster-General, it will be years before we get a real grip of the situation. Meanwhile, every unlicensed set not detected is costing the B.B.C. £5 a year.
    All that I ask in the new Clause is that the Post Office should do exactly what it does already but more thoroughly and more often. It proposes that every house without a television licence should be contacted once per annum. To start with, this would involve extra part-time staff. But the task requires more common sense than training. I should have thought that the staff, especially part-time staff, would be forthcoming. Once the first combing had been thoroughly completed, I believe that defaulters would dwindle to so small a number that a regular yearly check could be completed by the present staff.
    There is absolutely no politics in the Clause. It comes from a genuine conviction that the Bill, which we all wish to see effective, will founder because the Postmaster-General has over-rated the effects of Clauses 2 and 3 and underrated the importance of the field work which must back up Post Office records, however much they are improved.
    Mr. Robert Cooke: I support the new Clause. From my experience, the Post Office records appear to be in a thoroughly unsatisfactory state. The new Clause, if it is accepted by the House, might go some way to remedying the situation.
    I purchased a new broadcasting licence in January this year. I forget that I had bought it. I received a somewhat savagely worded reminder that, perhaps, I did not have a licence. I got a new one at the House of Commons when I received the reminder. I then had an apologetic letter from the postmaster at home saying that I now had two. There was a four-month time lag between my purchase of the original licence and receipt of the reminder, when I bought the second one. My local postmaster told me that I could have my money back, but in the end I got only £4 17s. 6d.
    From that sad, personal tale of someone who honestly did his best, bought his licence at the right time, responded to the reminder and lost 2s. 6d. in the bargain, it will be seen that there is something wrong in the set-up, and I support my hon. Friend's Clause.
    Dr. M. P. Winstanley: This seems to be a curious Clause to emerge from a party which regards itself as the guardian and custodian of liberty. I understand and sympathise with the object of it, which is to extract licence fees from those who should pay them. To that extent, I applaud it. However, a proposal for the setting up of this highly complicated procedure whereby people without television sets are to receive communications and there is to be a large department to ensure that such people are visited regularly, coming from the party which constantly talks about the increase in bureaucracy and the number of civil servants—
    Mr. Bryan: Is the hon. Gentleman—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. If the hon. Gentleman would address the Chair, it would help the Press and the Chair.
    Mr. Bryan: I apologise, Mr. Speaker. It would be better if the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) had read the proceedings which preceded tonight's sitting, because he would find that a lot of what he says is answered there.
    Dr. Winstanley: I have read the proceedings with some interest, but in no way do they invalidate the comment which I make. The Clause provides that persons without television sets shall be visited. I am reminded of a speech by the Leader of the Conservative Party at a party conference in which he talked about the Socialist attack on private liberties and referred to "officials knocking on every door".
    Here we have a positive recommendation that Post Office officials should go round knocking on doors. It seems extraordinary that one should try and discover who should pay a television licence fee by finding all the people who have not got television sets. It is rather like trying to discover the number of people who have attended a football match by counting the number of people who have not.
    I am in sympathy with the aims of the Clause, just as I am in sympathy with the Bill, since the Bill itself is no more than the formal implementation of a suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) some 12 years ago—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not let his Liberal enthusiasm tempt him to get out of order.
    Dr. Winstanley: I apologise, Mr. Speaker.
    We sympathise with the aims of the Clause, which is to extract licence fees from those who should pay them, but it seems to be a cumbersome way to do it. The provisions in the Bill are unsatisfactory in themselves, and we may need new ones, but I could not recommend my hon. Friends to support a Clause which requires correspondence to be sent to citizens and which sets up an elaborate administrative organisation to enable members of the Postmaster-General's staff to visit people who, so far as we know, have no liability. The Clause runs contrary to what I have always understood to be Conservative Party policy. I am surprised to find it here. Despite the fact that it is not Conservative policy, I do not intend to support it.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: How the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) can describe the Clause as complicated, I do not know. I can see
    450
    his point of view when he says that he would resist the idea of people being written to asking whether or not they have television sets—
    Dr. Winstanley: Visited.
    Sir H. Nicholls: It is proposed that they should be written to first. If they do not reply on the prepaid postcard, they would then be visited.
    I can understand the hon. Gentleman wanting to resist that, but I do not know how he can say that this is complicated, and that a vast army of civil servants will be needed to carry it out, because, as my hon. Friend explained, it is clear that by carrying out research in this way we will make use of the existing Post Office facilities and staff to a large extent, and at the end of the day it will be quicker and less costly than setting up the paraphernalia of the law and all the legal jargon that goes with it.
    I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman when he says that he does not want to be written to and asked whether he has a television set. He is so busy appearing on television that perhaps he does not have one. All I can say is that those who listen to him get value for money, but I do not think he ought to base his objection to the Clause on the fact that it is complicated, and that it will take an army of civil servants to operate it, when in fact the opposite is the case. I understand the hon. Gentleman's point of view on whether we ought to be written to with regard to the possession of a television set, but I hope that he will base his argument on firm ground, instead of wrapping it round with all that jargon.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Edward Short): The hon. Member for Howden (Mr. Bryan) suggested that I did not listen to his argument on postal combing during the Committee stage of the Bill. I listened to him at great length, and with great care, both during the Second Reading debate and in Committee. I should have thought that the very happy and felicitous way in which the Committee stage proceeded showed that he was satisfied with the splendid answers which he received from me. However, I shall try to deal with the matter once more.

    451
    What is wrong with the present efforts of the Post Office against licence evasion is not, as he suggested, that they are half-hearted. The real trouble is that they are wasteful because they extend over a wide area. Everybody in the country who is shown in our records as not having a television licence has to be treated as a potential evader, even though we know that many of them cannot be evaders, simply because they do not have a television set. This is why the present method is very wasteful. We therefore write to people without licences and ask whether they have sets, and if so whether they will kindly take out a licence. I think that the notice is a polite one and not rude.
    This approach has some effect, but, as the hon. Gentleman said, there are people who ignore these letters, and the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) proffered the information that he would probably be one of them. There are others who give false answers. When either of these things happens, the evaders may eventually be brought to book by visits to their homes, but the programme of visiting homes takes a considerable time. On average it takes about four years to work through a normal, average-sized town. To do so more often, say every three years, or every two years, would need many more staff, and it would be basically inefficient to bring in more staff for making a large number of inquiries and visits which in many cases must lead nowhere, because, as I have said, many homes have no sets.
    The provisions in Part I of the Bill will provide us with a list of people who have sets for comparison against my list of licence holders. This will enable the Post Office, instead of wasting time and effort on many abortive inquiries, to attack the hard core. To do this there will be some transfer of existing labour from the present job of combing to this job to process and deal with the information which we get under Part I of the Bill.
    I doubt very much whether a vast increase in the number of detector cars is the answer. I am dealing with this again because the hon. Gentleman has mentioned it on many occasions. We do not have to stop at 20 detector cars, but
    452
    the point is that if we consider these cars simply for the direct effect of catching evaders they are not worth the money, they are not a paying proposition, but they pay for themselves many times over because of their deterrent effect. When a detector car is seen in an area a large number of people buy licences, but if we consider them for their direct effect—the number of evaders who are caught—they really are not worth the money. Although we need more cars, and we are getting more, the number cannot be increased indefinitely without regard to the cost, and I do not think that the deterrent effect would increase in proportion to the increase in the number of cars.
    10.30 p.m.
    To put it another way, I have three main objections to the new Clause. First, the staff available to the Post Office is not unlimited. It would be impossible to take on at present both the extra work that the Clause would require and the additional work that Part I of the Bill requires. Secondly, the extra work would not be as fruitful as that to which Part I will give rise, for the reason I have mentioned. Postal combing is directed to people without licences. We do not know whether they have sets. Inquiries made under the dealer scheme, on the other hand, will be directed towards people whom we know to have sets.
    I do not propose to pursue the idea of recruiting part-time staff for the special purpose of visiting people who have no licences and to ask them whether they have sets, except to say that this is not the kind of work that anybody can do. It requires some skill and some discretion if it is to be done without upsetting people. Anyhow, as the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) has said, the party opposite is always accusing us of increasing the number of civil servants.
    My third objection to the Clause is its inflexibility. It does not simply permit me to increase the scale of postal combing; anyhow I do not need permission to do that. The new Clause would compel me to do it once a year regardless of circumstances and regardless of the effect on other essential Post Office services of this rather big extra demand on staff resources. Nevertheless, having pointed out these three objections I say that at some time in the future it may be

    453
    possible and desirable to increase the scale of postal combing. I do not know and—with respect—neither does the hon. Gentleman.
    More frequent postal combing of the people remaining without licences may become possible when the number of licensed households has been substantially reduced as a result of the Bill. It will then be a very much smaller problem to tackle. Also, my Department has well under way a project to transfer the licence records to computers, starting first with a pilot scheme, later to be extended to the whole country if the pilot scheme is successful.
    When this has been done some staff will be released—staff who are at present occupied on routine clerical work. This will make more possible more selective postal combing of areas where few people
    have licences. Those areas could be combed more often without increasing the frequency of combing in places where there are few people without licences. That would be the effect of the new Clause. Whether it would be desirable to make inquiries as often as once a year of people who turn out to have no sets is another matter. People who have no sets might be irritated by receiving these inquiries as often as once a year.
    For all these reasons I cannot advise the House to accept the new Clause, and I hope that in view of my explanation the hon. Member for Howden will not press it to a Division.
    Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time: —
    The House divided: Ayes 129, Noes 210.

    Division No. 364.]

    AYES

    [10.34 p.m.

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Murton, Oscar

    Astor, John

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    Neave, Airey

    Baker, W. H. K.

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Berry, Hn. Anthony

    Goodhart, Philip

    Nott, John

    Biffen, John

    Gower, Raymond

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Grant, Anthony

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Blaker, Peter

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Gurden, Harold

    Percival, Ian

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Harrison, Cot. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Pym, Francis

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Bryan, Paul

    Heseltine, Michael

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Hiley, Joseph

    Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

    Buck, Antony (Colchester)

    Hill, J. E. B.

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Royle, Anthony

    Campbell, Gordon

    Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Carlisle, Mark

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Holland, Philip

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Howell, David (Guildford)

    Stainton, Keith

    Clegg, Walter

    Hunt, John

    Stodart, Anthony

    Cooke, Robert

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

    Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Costain, A. P.

    Jopling, Michael

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Crouch, David

    Kimball, Marcus

    Teeling, Sir William

    Dance, James

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Tilney, John

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Kitson, Timothy

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Doughty, Charles

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

    Drayson, G. B.

    Loveys, W. H.

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Mac Arthur, Ian

    Webster, David

    Eden, Sir John

    Maddan, Martin

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Maginnis, John E.

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Eyre, Reginald

    Mawby, Ray

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Farr, John

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Fisher, Nigel

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr, S. L. C.

    Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Worsley, Marcus

    Forrest, George

    Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

    Wright, Esmond

    Fortescue, Tim

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Wylie, N. R.

    Foster, Sir John

    Monro, Hector

    Younger, Hn. George

    Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

    More, Jasper

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

    Mr. David Mitchell and

    Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Archer, Peter

    Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

    Alldritt, Walter

    Armstrong, Ernest

    Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

    Anderson, Donald

    Ashley, Jack

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Hannan, William

    Murray, Albert

    Barnes, Michael

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Newens, Stan

    Barnett, Joel

    Haseldine, Norman

    Norwood, Christopher

    Baxter, William

    Hazell, Bert

    Oakes, Gordon

    Beaney, Alan

    Henig, Stanley

    Ogden, Eric

    Bence, Cyril

    Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

    O'Malley, Brian

    Bessell, Peter

    Hilton, W. S,

    Orbach, Maurice

    Bishop, E. S.

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Orme, Stanley

    Blackburn, F.

    Hooley, Frank

    Oswald, Thomas

    Booth, Albert

    Hooson, Emlyn

    Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

    Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

    Brooke, Edwin

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Palmer, Arthur

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Howie, W.

    Park, Trevor

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Hoy, James

    Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

    Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

    Huckfield, L.

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Pentland, Norman

    Buchan, Norman

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Cant, R. B.

    Hynd, John

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Carmichael, Neil

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

    Chapman, Donald

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Coleman, Donald

    Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

    Probert, Arthur

    Concannon, J. D.

    Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

    Rees, Merlyn

    Conlan, Bernard

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

    Richard, Ivor

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Croasman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E

    Dalyell, Tam

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.)

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Rose, Paul

    Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

    Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

    Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)

    Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Dell, Edmund

    Luard, Evan

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Dempsey, James

    Lubbock, Eric

    Slater, Joseph

    Dewar, Donald

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Dobson, Ray

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Steel, David (Roxburgh)

    Doig, Peter

    McBride, Neil

    Swingler, Stephen

    Donnelly, Desmond

    McCann, John

    Taverne, Dick

    Dunn, James A.

    MacColl, James

    Tinn, James

    Dunnett, Jack

    MacDermot, Niall

    Urwin, T. W.

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Macdonald, A H,

    Varley, Eric G.

    Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

    McGuire, Michael

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

    Ellis, John

    Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Faulds, Andrew

    Mackle, John

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Wallace, George

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Maclennan, Robert

    Watkins, David (Consett)

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

    Foley, Maurice

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Weitzman, David

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Ford, Ben

    Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

    Whitaker, Ben

    Forrester, John

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Fowler, Gerry

    Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Whitlock, William

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    Manuel, Archie

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

    Mapp, Charles

    Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

    Freeson, Reginald

    Marquand, David

    Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Maxwell, Robert

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Gardner, Tony

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

    Ginsburg, David

    Millan, Bruce

    Winnick, David

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

    Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Molloy, William

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Gregory, Arnold

    Moonman, Eric

    Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Woof, Robert

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Yates, Victor

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hamling, William

    Moyle, Roland

    Mr. Joseph Harper and

    Mr. Ioan L. Evans.

    Clause 3.—(POWER TO CALL FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.)
    Mr. Stratton Mills: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 4, line 26, at the end to add:
    (4) Subsection (2) above shall not come into effect until regulations have been made by the Postmaster General.
    The Amendment is designed as a small but important check to the bureaucratic
    456
    powers which the Postmaster-General will have under the Bill. Subsection (2) gives the right hon. Gentleman extensive powers to require all television dealers to give past details of all hire purchase and credit sale transactions. In Committee, the right hon. Gentleman very fairly recognised that this is a very big job. He has underlined that admission by writing into the Bill the provision that

    457
    dealers shall have 12 months in which to prepare this information.
    In Committee, the right hon. Gentleman was pressed on the question whether it was necessary to have this power. This is the central point of our argument.
    He said this:
    "… I do not rule out the possibility that, if things … go extremely well—and the 2million come in on their own, as it were—it might not be necessary to invoke at once—or even at all—the powers I seek under subsection (2). … I make no promise. The power must be there."
    Later, he added these particularly important words:
    "… if there is virtually no existing evader to be caught when the Bill takes effect, or, indeed at the beginning of next year, I shall not use powers to catch him."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee D, 2nd May, 1967, c. 61.]
    Clearly, the right hon. Gentleman was saying that, if the powers of detection and the power to take reports from dealers of current sales prove effective, he will not invoke this further power and put upon dealers the tremendous backlog of work involved.
    The question of timing is important. As I understand it, Part I of the Bill comes into effect on 1st January, 1968. Twelve months' thence, 1st January, 1969, is the earliest possible date at which the Postmaster-General could use the power to get back-information from dealers. Obviously, it is well ahead yet.
    The purpose of the Amendment is to make sure that the Postmaster-General, if he wants to use the powers under Clause 3(2), should report to the House of Commons on how the existing arrangements have been operating, or whether they have succeeeded and, more particularly, on the margin between success and failure, before claiming the right to use these powers. It would be wrong to give the right hon. Gentleman a cheque completed as to everything except date and ready to be presented to the bank when he required.
    The right hon. Gentleman should first explain to the House, or the House should have the right to discuss on an Order, the reasons why, in the light of the evidence then available, he claimed that it was necessary to use these further powers.
    10.45 p.m.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): The hon. Gentleman the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) reminded us of what my right hon. Friend had said in Committee, but he did not complete the reference. My right hon. Friend went on to say, "Of course, I shall be just as delighted as anyone else if I do not need to use these powers". The hon. Gentleman may feel that even that statement made in Standing Committee was not enough and that there should be another opportunity for the House to consider whether, in the event, the Postmaster-General needs to exercise the power under Clause 3(2).
    It is argued that, despite the Bill, my Department will succeed in winkling out the hard core of evaders only by an increasing campaign of house visiting and that it will have to recruit part-time staff for this purpose. It is contended that, as this campaign is required anyway, it should be started at once and that, along with the deterrent effect of increased penalties, the extent of evasion at present might be so reduced as to make it unnecessary for us to operate Clause 3(2). Further, it is said that an obligation to activate the Clause by Statutory Instrument would afford the House the opportunity to see how the campaign was progressing and that, subject to this, the power under Clause 3(2) should remain a reserve power.
    What are the answers to these arguments? In the first place, it is quite unnecessary to write into the Bill such a provision for control, subject to amendment by either House, on the use of these powers. The question whether the power is needed at all is for debate during the passage of the Bill while it is being considered by both Houses. To go over the same ground again when a statutory instrument was made would be quite unnecessary. This case is not one where a power is conferred in such general terms as to require that Parliament should have the opportunity to look at the details when they are spelled out later in regulations. What the House must remember is that this is not delegated legislation. It is all there in the Bill already.
    Nor can I accept that the power should be one that was held in reserve until the

    459
    need to use it could be demonstrated by the failure of other methods. If its mere existence, coupled with other measures against evasion, including the other provisions of the Bill, turns out to be enough, my right hon. Friend and I will be very content. If there is little or no evasion left when the time comes, naturally we shall not ask the dealers to make out lists of all their customers. But licence evaders must realise now that there will certainly be a way of getting at them, not merely when they replace their sets, but by establishing that they already have sets. It is true that we cannot in this way get at all the existing sets. Clause 3(2) will not catch the evaders who bought their sets for cash. But that is no reason for not getting at the others.
    I do not want to understate or gloss over the fact that coping with the lists of existing rental cases will require more work by the Post Office. But it must not be exaggerated. It does not all have to be done on one day or in one financial year. A great many evaders can be expected to throw in the sponge on being told by the Post Office that there is every reason to believe that they have sets, when they might have stuck it out if all that the Post Office could say was that we only wondered if they had sets.
    Naturally, a number will have to be visited and prosecuted, and there will always be some who even when they have been caught will lapse again, and they will have to be caught again if possible. But the scale of the job is not one that cannot be tackled by the normal staff of the Post Office with some extra effort. The hon. Member suggested that the Post Office would need to employ additional staff on a temporary and part-time footing. I am grateful for the recognition by the hon. Member for Howden (Mr. Bryan) of the excellence of the present Post Office staff—he made this statement in our debate on the new Clause. But I see no need to adopt the suggestion in the Amendment. If this job has to be done I think that it can best be done by the present Post Office staff with only a marginal need for reinforcement.
    Therefore, I cannot advise the House to accept the Amendment.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: The Assistant Postmaster-General speaks as though he
    460
    and his right hon. Friend will remain the Assistant Postmaster-General and Postmaster-General respectively for ever more. I think it is quite likely that if we had them in perpetuity—heaven forbid!—with the regulations and after all the information given to them in Committee, they would use these powers sensibly and with a lot of control. But they are not likely to be there when the powers are likely to have to come into operation. Therefore, the House must view this on the basis of what a new Postmaster-General and Assistant Postmaster-General would do under certain circumstances.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General said that the proposal would involve a waste of time. A waste of time to give Parliament information? That is what we ask for. We say that the power shall remain where it is, but that before the regulations are acted on the Postmaster General or Assistant Postmaster-General shall explain to the House that their other efforts have failed so much that the new powers should be put into operation. All that that boils down to is that the Postmaster-General, whoever he is, shall tell Parliament what has happened up to date. It is never a waste of time to report to Parliament on legislation of this kind.
    I trust that the hon. Gentleman will give sympathetic consideration to the Amendment. He took part in the Committee proceedings and is aware of the onerous task that this provision would place on dealers. They will have to fill in forms and make returns to the authorities. If, for any reason, they do not send in those returns under the principal Act, they will be liable to be dealt with. They will be brought up as law breakers.
    If the other measures to deal with people who evade paying their licence fees are working, legislation which would make dealers law breakers should not be introduced. The hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend have heard this matter discussed in Committee. But other Ministers, after the Postmaster-General and Assistant Postmaster-General have left their present office—perhaps the Assistant Postmaster-General will be promoted Secretary of State for Defence; we could do with a new one—will not have had the advantage of hearing this matter debated in Committee and may not be

    461
    fully aware of the effect that this will have on dealers.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: The reply of the Assistant Postmaster-General was disappointing, particularly since he asked himself one question and proceeded to answer another one. His central argument seemed to be that once the provision was in the Bill, it was not necessary for Parliament to discuss the matter again. He missed the argument we are making about subsection (2). The Postmaster-General made it clear in Committee that he was considering these powers as reserve powers. He went on to lay down the rough criteria which he would bear in mind before invoking them.
    I gather that these powers would come into operation only once the other powers had been shown to have failed. The hon. Gentleman has tonight not answered our questions and has not given the criteria which would be satisfactory to his right hon. Friend. In other words, if there are 2 million people evading their licence fees, if, in 12 months' time, 1½ million or 1¾ million of them are caught, would the Postmaster-General feel it necessary to invoke these additional powers to catch the remaining small number?
    We are discussing massive powers. It is impossible for us to debate them in advance, and it is equally impossible for the hon. Gentleman to speak about them in advance, of knowing the criteria which would operate before invoking them. That is why we want a sort of long stop, at which point we will be able to see whether these powers are necessary. I trust that, between now and the Bill reaching another place, the hon. Gentleman will consider the matter further.
    11.0 p.m.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: People who evade paying their licence fees should not run away with the idea that they will not be caught. Every possible attempt, through the operation of this Bill, will be made to catch them. But the answer to the Amendment is that it would be wrong in a future debate—and this is what I was emphasising—to have to go all over again the arguments which we have gone over during the passage of the present Bill. In any case, let it be remembered that after the Bill has become law Members
    462
    of Parliament would still be able to table Questions. They would still be in a position to ask the Postmaster-General how far evasion had been reduced and whether there was still a need to call for a list of agreements.
    I want to say to the hon. Gentleman that this Amendment is incomplete. I really believe that it would create uncertainty because it does not express power to make any regulations connected with the operation of Clause 3(2) of the Bill. The Amendment could, therefore, be construed as meaning that the conditions stated had been satisfied once any regulations under the Bill had been made.
    I think, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment seems to be under a misapprehension regarding the attitude of my right hon. Friend in seeking to catch up with those people who have been evading the responsibilities which they ought to meet like anyone else.
    Amendment negatived.

  Schedule.—(NOTIFICATIONS AND RECORDS)
  Mr. Edward Short: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 13, line 6, at the end to insert:
  3. In the case of a sale, whether the price is payable by instalments and, in the case of a letting, whether it is a letting on hire or hire-purchase.
  The object of this Amendment is to put right a defect in Part I of the Schedule to the Bill. The main continuing feature of the new dealer scheme to be introduced by the Bill is that in future my Department will be notified by dealers of their sales and lettings of television sets. The particulars they will be required to notify are set out in Part I of the Schedule.
  One of the things we want to find out from the dealer is whether the transaction is by way of a contract of hire purchase or rental or credit sale, as opposed to a cash sale. The advantage of knowing this is that if we lose track of a person who holds a set under such a contract we can, under Clause 3(1), ask the dealer whether the contract is still in force and what is the present or last known address of the hirer or buyer, as the case may be.
  If hon. Members will look at Clause 3(1) they will see that the Postmaster-

  463
  General can require a television dealer to furnish to him specific information of a specified credit-sale contract, hire contract or hire-purchase contract, but not an ordinary cash sale.
  Well, obviously, unless we have some way of knowing what kind of a sale it is we cannot serve a notice of that kind. Without the Amendment which I am now proposing it could be argued that strictly speaking Part I of the Schedule does not require the dealer to tell us under which particular category the transaction falls. Without this it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to identify transactions in requests for information under Clause 3(1). It is to remove any possible doubt that this Amendment has been put down.
  I do not think that the Amendment is in any way controversial, but one never knows. However, I commend it to the House.
  Sir Myer Galpern: I have listened with interest to what my right hon. Friend has been saying. I wonder whether he has given any consideration to an anomaly which may be created here. There is a growing practice of dealers now receiving vouchers from cheque companies, and as far as that dealer is concerned he is carrying out a cash sale. When he hands over the apparatus to the customer, he receives at the end of a month or two from the cheque company the cash, less discount, for the payment on the sale.
  Nevertheless, it is a continuing hire purchase agreement in so far as the cheque company may be collecting the instalments on the set for a period varying from 100 weeks to probably three years. The question arises of whether the dealer who has sold the set and has received payment from the voucher company is to regard this as a cash sale or, in addition, to notify the fact that this was a cheque transaction and that continuing instalments are payable. So far as the dealer is concerned, there is no further information he can contribute and this aspect may create some difficulty for dealers under the new system of vouchers.
  Mr. Edward Short: My hon. Friend will find that this point is covered by the interpretation of Clause 6(1).
  Amendment agreed to.
  11.5 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Short: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  There has, I am glad to say, been no disagreement about the objects of the Bill. They are to bring to book the dishonest minority of people who do not take out licences for their television sets; to put a stop to the manufacturers and import of wireless telegraphy apparatus which I am not prepared to license; and to make a number of miscellaneous improvements to the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1949.
  I thank hon. Members for the generally constructive manner in which they have dealt with the Bill. We had some difficulties about three aspects. First, are we sure that the machinery which Part I provides is really necessary to stop evasion by the licence dodgers? Secondly, do the provisions of Clause 7 threaten the interests of the radio amateur—a threat which none of us wishes to make? Thirdly—a difference we have now happily resolved—what should be done about forfeiture under the provisions of the principal Act?
  Before we part with the Bill I want to say a few words about these three aspects. First, we all agree that there must be a sustained and successful effort to stop the licence dodger. I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite believe that as firmly as we do. However, they have shown some doubt about whether information from dealers is the best way of tackling the problem and whether other methods, not involving dealers, would be sufficient. We have been into all that at great length and I do not want to detain the House on it tonight.
  There is, however, one main point to which I would like to return and which seems to me to be at the heart of much of the debate on the Bill. In the end, if my Department is to be able to beat the evaders, it must be able to hold the initiative against them. I hope that I have been able to persuade the House of this. As things are, the boot is too often on the other foot. In effect, Part I of the Bill will give my Department the initiative. It will enable it to say to an evader not only, "We know you haven't a licence", but also. "And we have every reason to believe that you have a set."

  465
  As things stand, my Department cannot say the second of these things. While my Department is thus handicapped, it cannot hold the initiative against the great majority of determined evaders. The Department must be able to address itself not speculatively to those who might have sets and do not have licences but positively to those who almost certainly do have sets and do not have licences. This is why we need to turn to the people, that is, the dealers, who have the information which will give our inquiry work precision of aim. This is why we need Part I of the Bill.
  In relation to Clause 7, I should like to repeat the assurance I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Wallace) in Committee—and I know that he will be much interested in this—that the Post Office will continue its close contact with the Radio Society of Great Britain, the amateurs' representative body. Before I make any Orders specifying apparatus on which the manufacture is to be banned, I will discuss it with this body. This will give full protection to legitimate interests of the amateurs. It would not make sense for me to exempt amateurs from any ban on making apparatus which I cannot license anyhow. Clause 7 is a worthwhile measure of consumer protection to keep off the market apparatus which I will not license because it will interfere with the use of radio which is licensed. Amateurs stand to gain from this Clause, as do other licensed users of radio apparatus.
  I am glad that the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) is here. On Second Reading, I regarded liability to forfeiture as an important deterrent against licence evasion. But since then the representations of a number of hon. Members—in particular, the hon. Member for Aldershot—and the representations of the trade have led me to change my mind. I say that quite frankly.
  In the result we have amended the Bill so as to abolish forfeiture as a penalty for the unlicensed use of receiving apparatus, leaving it only as a penalty for the unlicensed use of transmitting apparatus, where its appropriateness is not in dispute.
  In conclusion, I emphasise that new and effective measures against licence
  466
  evasion are the main theme of the Bill. It should bring to an end the era in which 12s. of each licence fee has been subsidising the selfish minority who got away with it. With the new powers I seek in the Bill we can get on with the job of putting a stop to evasion. I am grateful for the way in which the objects of the Bill have been generally welcomed and I invite the House to send it on its way.
  11.12 p.m.
  Mr. Paul Bryan: I would like to thank the Postmaster-General for his agreeable comments about the cooperation which has been shown by both sides of the House throughout all stages of the Bill. At this late hour, I shall not continue the debate much longer. I can sum up our attitude by saying that we are sending to another place a Bill which will certainly have a marked effect on licence evasion at the price of considerable and probably necessary extra work by dealers and rental companies. We think that at the same price a better Bill could have gone from the House, but it would be churlish of me not to acknowledge that the Postmaster-General has achieved a considerable measure of success towards the abolition of licence evasion.
  We are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the various concessions which he has made, especially regarding the forfeiture of sets. As to Part II, we have expressed doubts on Clause 7, but I shall not express them again. We can only hope that the assurances which have been given by the Postmaster-General will be taken to heart by his successors, because everybody knows that they are necessary to benefit the amateur radio enthusiast, whose rights we all wish to safeguard.
  11.14 p.m.
  Dr. Winstanley: I rise briefly to make two points. First, I want to complete a sentence which I endeavoured to make, quite improperly, at an earlier stage on Report when Mr. Speaker called me to order, a sentence which is more relevant to this stage of the Bill.
  My right hon. Friends and hon. Friends on this bench welcome the Bill, as I was endeavouring to say then, because, in part, it implements a suggestion put about 12 years ago by a very public-spirited

  467
  citizen named Mr. E. R. Lubbock, of Derby, to the then Postmaster-General, when he recommended precisely the steps which are envisaged in the Bill. The then Postmaster-General, Earl De La Warr, while appreciating the suggestion, said that there were difficulties and the suggestion of my hon. Friend would require legislation.
  We are happy to welcome the proposed legislation, but we regret that it has taken 12 years finally to produce it. I remind the Postmaster-General of his words:
  "This is the central problem in broadcasting in this country, and it arises from the dichotomy in our television arrangements which the Conservative Government established. Half the system, when it improves its service, makes a greater profit; the other half gets into deficit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th July, 1966: Vol. 731, c. 1433.]
  I refer to that because the Bill relates to extracting every penny out of the licensing system. While I welcome the
  468
  Bill, I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to give up his inquiries and investigations into every other possible method, however successful he is in extracting every penny from this.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
  Mr. John Pardoe added to the Sub-Committee on Coastal Pollution appointed by the Select Committee on Science and Technology.—[Mr. McBride.]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. McBride.]
  Adjourned accordingly at a quarter past Eleven o'clock.

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  Nuclear Power Stations (Oldbury and Wylfa)
COAL
  Production
  Production
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (GUIDE)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (GUIDE)
  RHODESIA
  RHODESIA
  MIDDLE EAST
  MIDDLE EAST
  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT (MR. ANTHONY NUTTING)
  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT (MR. ANTHONY NUTTING)
  LAW SOCIETIES (LAY PERSONS)
  LAW SOCIETIES (LAY PERSONS)
BOARD OF TRADE
  Motor Industry (Hire-Purchase Regulations)
  Motor Industry (Hire-Purchase Regulations)
  New Jobs (Blyth)
  New Jobs (Blyth)
  Advance Factories, Blyth
  Advance Factories, Blyth
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Premium Bond Draws (Television Coverage)
  Premium Bond Draws (Television Coverage)
  MIDDLE EAST
  MIDDLE EAST
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, WALES (FORMS AND PUBLICATIONS)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, WALES (FORMS AND PUBLICATIONS)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Agricultural Tractors (Accidents)
  Agricultural Tractors (Accidents)
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Productivity Agreements (Report of National Board for Prices and Incomes)
  Productivity Agreements (Report of National Board for Prices and Incomes)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Cancer Research (Funds)
  Cancer Research (Funds)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Crime (Figures)
  Crime (Figures)
  Prisoner (Suicide)
  Prisoner (Suicide)
  Pleasure Boats (Speed)
  Pleasure Boats (Speed)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  India (Aid)
  India (Aid)
TECHNOLOGY
  Gas-Cooled Fast Reactors
  Gas-Cooled Fast Reactors
  Container Ships (Marine Reactors)
  Container Ships (Marine Reactors)
RAILWAYS
  Regional and National Headquarters (Staff)
  Regional and National Headquarters (Staff)
  Computers
  Computers
TRANSPORT
  Working Parties and Committees
  Working Parties and Committees
  Builders' Refuse Containers (Lighting)
  Builders' Refuse Containers (Lighting)
WALES
  Regional Employment Premium
  Regional Employment Premium
SCOTLAND
  Census Reports
  Census Reports

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Truro

CENTENARY OF CANADIAN SENATE
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I have to inform the House that I have received from the Speaker of the Senate of Canada a Resolution adopted on June 6 expressing the sincere and grateful appreciation of the Senate of Canada for the Resolution passed by this House on May 11. I am placing a copy of this Resolution and of the speeches made upon it in the Library, and have written to thank the Speaker of the Senate.

PEMBROKESHIRE COAST ROUTE
2.37 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government which lengths of the Pembrokeshire Coast Long Distance Route are not yet public rights of way and when it is expected that the work will be completed.]
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, approximately 15 miles of paths remain to be created as public rights of way. The local authorities concerned are negotiating agreements with the landowners for about 9½ miles of path and are preparing public path creation orders for the remaining 5½ miles. It is not possible to estimate when the path will be complete.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, I should like to ask her whether she is aware that this path was designated as long ago as 1953. Does she not think that 14 years is ample time
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in which to get the matter completed? While, obviously, some progress is being made, will she and her right honourable friends use their best endeavours to get the path completed as quickly as possible, because thousands of walkers are anxiously looking forward to the opportunity of using it?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, as the noble Lord will appreciate, the question was entrusted to the local authorities through whose areas the route passed. While I should agree with him that negotiations have been going on for a long time, I think it is true to say that they may well be nearing their conclusion. As I intend to have my own holiday in the area I hope that perhaps by July they will be completed.
LORD STRANG: My Lords, is it the intention of the Government in the new Countryside Bill, which we have been so often promised but which has not yet appeared, to incorporate provisions which will accelerate this procedure?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that I cannot give him any direct reply to that question. It is perhaps the subject for another Question.

CENTRAL AFRICAN AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH COUNCIL
2.40 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why they are withdrawing support from the Agricultural Research Council of Central Africa.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has given notice of its intention to withdraw with effect from June 30, 1967, from the Agricultural Research Council, the other members of which are Rhodesia and Malawi. Her Majesty's Government were unable to agree to continue to support on a two-country basis a Council

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whose research would be almost wholly based upon Rhodesia.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, did I understand from that reply that Her Majesty's Government are doing what they can for this valuable institution to continue?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord could understand that, but it would require a certain amount of effort to do so. The position is that Zambia is withdrawing. We, the United Kingdom, are not members of this Council. We have, however, supported it. What we cannot do is to support work which, as I have said, is almost wholly based in Rhodesia. I hope that a good deal of work will continue now in Malawi, and we are negotiating a way of financing that work.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is this not a rather short-sighted attitude?—because research, first of all, is a long-term business; and secondly, whatever happens in Rhodesia is going to help the other parts of Africa. Surely we should not take our quarrel with Rhodesia to such an extent as to affect the future of research on agricultural production in Africa.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord is displaying less than his usual sense of fairness. What we undertook to do, in the first place, was to support financially a body which was a Federal effort comprising the three countries. We should be happy to continue to support financially a Federal effort of that kind, and indeed, despite the illegal declaration of independence, we did continue to provide financial support. It is not a decision of Her Majesty's Government that any one country should withdraw.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, whether or not this remains a Federal effort, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Will he not overlook the fact that the work of this Research Council promises to have immense value in an area where anything that can be done to improve agricultural standards will be of enormous benefit, and not least to parts of Africa far beyond the boundaries of these two or three countries? Will he deny to millions of Africans the benefit of this research, just, as it would seem, because he wants to spite a few whites?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord will get nowhere with that sort of language. The noble Lord used the words "spite a few whites". I have said that Her Majesty's Government have supported this effort, despite the illegal declaration of independence, and would have continued to support it had the three countries who were members remained members. But it is not any wish of ours that Zambia has decided to withdraw. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, that the work done at that centre was by far the best of all that has been done in Africa, and it is a great pity that it cannot continue. But under the new situation caused by the withdrawal of Zambia, some of the work will be done separately in Zambia, and some in Malawi; and I have already said that we agree to support the work done in Malawi.
LORD WEDGWOOD: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the withdrawal of funds from the Agricultural Research Council of Central Africa is detrimental to the interests of all races who live in Central Africa, and especially so when the need for greater production of food at this time, with a growing and bursting population, is, after all, paramount?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, probably the noble Lord will be good enough to see what I have said about this. No one would have been happier than Her Majesty's Government, and certainly not happier than myself, if it had been possible to continue this work on a three-country basis. But, let us face it, this is one of the incidental tragedies of the illegal declaration of independence, which was no fault of ours.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, if Her Majesty's Government think that the work of this institution is so valuable, surely it would be petty to say that it must be on a three-country basis. Surely it can be carried on a two-country basis. Or it might even be a three-country basis, because Portuguese East Africa might come in, or Kenya.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, of the three countries in that part of Africa, probably the most deserving is Malawi. The work needed to be done there is greater than in the other countries. Malawi proposes to take over some of

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the work, and we shall give financial support.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, while associating ourselves very much with the previous questions asked, may I ask this question? Is the Agricultural Research Council in this country helping in any way in this part of the world? I know that the A.R.C. has certain tropical sections. Could the noble Lord tell me this?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I cannot answer that question except to say that, as the noble Earl will know, in the scientific field there is always a very close relationship. But as to the direct connection, I could not say without notice.

PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT OF "LITTLE VENICE"
2.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will stop planning permission being given for the develop-men of flats and a marina at Little Venice, Paddington, which would destroy public open space of a unique character and the only place where a large boat display can take place afloat in inner London.]
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I quite agree, and I am sure that many in this House will agree, that the area to which the noble Viscount refers is both unique and attractive; and, of course, whatever happens in the future, the water will still be there for boats to be displayed. Apart from that, an application on behalf of the British Waterways Board to construct a pier, marina and boathouse at what is known as Little Venice, Paddington, with a number of flats and houses over the water, is being considered by Westminster City Council, the local planning authority. If they decide that they wish to grant permission, they must consult both the Greater London Council and my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, as the proposal involves a
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substantial departure from the development plan.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I am sure that the local planning authority must consult Her Majesty's Government, but will Her Majesty's Government take particular care in this particular case?—because, although it is true that the water will remain there (no one is in the slightest doubt about that), the purpose of the water will in fact cease if this development is carried out. Also, this block of flats comes right in the middle of a large public open space of unique character. Will Her Majesty's Government take that also into consideration? I do not think that anybody is querying that the water will remain there.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I agree with what the noble Viscount says in this matter. I would point out, however, that so far as I am informed there will still be provision for boats to be on the water. But I am passing no judgment on the matter one way or the other. It will be for the Minister ultimately to decide. If Westminster City Council wish to grant permission, the application will be referred to the Minister before they can do so. If they decide to refuse permission, the applicants may appeal to the Minister direct.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned that there must be consultation before anything is done. Does he not think it desirable that the national waterways authority should be represented at least before any decision is reached?
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I am not quite sure what is meant by "the national waterways authority?" There is a British Waterways Board, but they are involved in the proceedings and are naturally fully acquainted with the whole situation.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, can a condition of planning permission be that the Royal Fine Art Commission are consulted in the event of these flats being built?
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, that is certainly a commendable idea, and I will see that it is passed to the Minister; and I hope that the mere fact that the noble

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Duke has asked that question, and I have commented on it, will draw the matter to the attention of the Westminster City Council.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, will the Government also take into account, apart from the importance of the water, the importance of the whole area, and indeed the precincts surrounding the water, since this beautiful and unique part of London has remained virtually unchanged since Verlaine wrote one of his beautiful poems about it nearly one hundred years ago?
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, knowing this area fairly well, and passing through it many times every year, I would beg to differ somewhat from the opinion of the noble Lord, because in fact new buildings have been constructed on one side of the waterway in place of the rather derelict buildings which were there beforehand. But, again, I assure the noble Lord, and indeed all who are interested in the matter, that this is an amenity that should be preserved, and I hope very much indeed that the various remarks made this afternoon will be taken very carefully into consideration by all those involved in this project.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on the Radcliffe Report on D-Notices at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. Also, my noble friend Lord Chalfont will then make a Statement on the Middle East.
LONDON TRANSPORT (No. 2) BILL
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.
THE CITY UNIVERSITY BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ANTARCTIC TREATY BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed; Bill reported without amendment.

UNIFORM LAWS ON INTERNATIONAL SALES BILL
Report of the Amendment received (according to Order).
FISHING VESSEL GRANTS BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MARINE &c, BROADCASTING (OFFENCES) BILL
2.52 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a,—(Lord Sorensen.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
Clause 5 [Prohibition of acts relating to matter broadcast from ships, aircraft, &c.]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (3), to leave out paragraph (f), and to insert:
"(f) publishing the times or other details of any broadcasts which are to be so made, or (otherwise than by publishing such details) publishing an advertisement of matter calculated to promote, directly or indirectly, the interests of a business whose activities consist in or include the operation of a station from which broadcasts are or are to be so made."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend and myself. I understand that the Government intend to accept this Amendment, and I rise to make certain that we are in agreement on what it means. This Amendment is an attempt to clarify Clause 5(3)(f) in consequence of uncertainty expressed as to the intention of the paragraph. The Amendment therefore makes it quite clear that it will be an offence to publish the times and other details of pirate broadcasts, whether or not publication is done by an advertisement. It goes on to make it an offence to publish an advertisement of matter calculated to promote, directly or indirectly, the interests of a business whose activities consist in or include the operation of a station from which broadcasts are or are to be so made.
In my view, this would meet the objections made to the present wording, that the existing and long-established distinction between advertisements on the one hand, and editorial matter or news on the other, to which the Press attach great importance, should be kept clear, and that, while the mere publication of times and contents of programmes will be an offence, mere publication of matter calculated to promote the interests of private pirate broadcasting stations will not.
Our initial view was that it would be desirable to define what Parliament meant by "advertisement" for the purposes of the Bill. The Government resisted that, and therefore this Amendment falls back on a form of words which makes it clear that whatever "advertisement" means in this Bill, it does not mean mere publication. I suggested to the Postmaster General that the paragraph might be strengthened and clarified if the word "likely" were substituted for the word "calculated". Noble Lords will remember that we had a long discussion in Committee on Protection of Consumers' (Trade Descriptions) Bill on the meaning of the word "calculated". In the end your Lordships decided, on a Division on February 21, 1966, to substitute the word "likely", and that was done with the concurrence even of some noble Lords on the Government side. However, that has not become law.
The general argument then was that if it was not meant that intention should be proved, then the word "calculated" was misleading to the ordinary person and should be replaced by the word "likely". I have been in touch with the Postmaster General's Department and I have received a letter from that Department in which one of the reasons given for not proposing such an Amendment is stated as follows:
"It could have the effect of allowing prosecutions to be brought in circumstances where there was no deliberate intention on the part of the persons who devised the advertisement to produce the effect of promoting the interests of the business ".
I am more than content with this, as it establishes that if the Government accept this Amendment, as I hope they will, it will imply—and I hope it will be the case—that they will interpret the word "calculated" in its proper sense of "designed", and will not bring prosecu
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tions except where they are satisfied that there was a deliberate intention on the part of the person designing the advertisement to promote the interests of the pirate station. This, of course, will not relieve the person publishing the advertisement of the responsibility for ensuring that the person who designed it had no such intention. Of course, this places a much greater statutory onus on the Press—if it is a question of Press publication—than the Press are normally expected to bear, and indeed a greater responsibility than the one which was to have been laid upon it in the Protection of Consumers' (Trade Descriptions) Bill.
This Amendment certainly seems to be a great improvement on the present text. I hope that what I have said will commend itself to the Government, and that they will be able to accept the spirit as well as the words of the Amendment in the way that I have indicated. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 32, leave out paragraph (f) and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for his observations. As he probably knows, consultations were held on this matter with the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and as far as my memory goes he was entirely satisfied with the words which are now embodied in this Amendment. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government accept the interpretation that he has placed upon these words; that there is no desire whatever, as we have said before, to impose any restriction on the Press in regard to legitimate observations or comment, and I hope that he is satisfied on that score, too. Therefore, the Government accept this Amendment.
May I also say that I am most grateful, particularly to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for his efforts, both in seeking to show the necessity for being more specific on the point covered by the Amendment, and also in helping to formulate an Amendment to the Bill without prejudicing the intention of the clause. In those circumstances, I hope most earnestly that this Amendment will be accepted.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Sorensen.)
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
3.0 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 69:
Prohibition on possessing or acquiring shot gun without a certificate
(5) The following provisions of the Firearms Act 1937
shall apply in relation to shot guns and shot gun certificates as they apply in relation to firearms to which the said Part I applies and firearm certificates, but shall so apply subject to the following modifications and exceptions:—
(a) in section 2(2) of that Act (qualifications for grant of a firearm certificate), for the words from "if he is satisfied" to "believe to be" there shall be substituted the words "unless he has reason to believe the applicant to be";
(7) The Secretary of State may by rules under the Firearms Act 1937 provide that the last foregoing subsection shall have effect as if for the reference to one month there were substituted a reference to such shorter period as may be prescribed by the rules.
(8) A person may without holding a shot gun certificate use a shot gun at a place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which that place is situated.
(10) Without prejudice to section 30(d) of the Firearms Act 1937 (rules for delegating the functions of a chief officer of police in specified circumstances) the functions of a chief officer of police under that Act, the Firearms Act 1965 or this Part of this Act shall be exercisable on any occasion by a person, or a person of any particular class, authorised by the chief officer of police to exercise that function on that occasion or on occasions of that class or on all occasions.
LORD SWANSEA LORD SWANSEA moved, in subsection (5)(a), after "has" to insert "good". The
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noble Lord said: This Amendment concerns the discretion of chief officers of police in granting or refusing shot-gun certificates under this Part of this Act. The Firearms Act 1937 is applied to this Bill by subsection (5) of Clause 69, with certain modifications. Paragraph (a) of subsection (5) purports to make a substantial modification to the 1937 Act to the effect that a chief constable shall grant a shot-gun certificate to an applicant "unless he has reason to believe" the applicant to be prohibited or un-suited in the terms of the 1937 Act. Chief constables, therefore, have very wide powers of discretion to grant or refuse shot-gun certificates. I think there is a great danger of variation in practice in different areas of the country. In particular, chief constables may apply the rules differently in urban and rural areas, but, as your Lordships know, a great many townspeople do take part in outdoor pursuits, including shooting, and it would be grossly unfair if the same rules were not applied throughout the country.
Apart from the reasons defined in the Firearms Act 1937—that is to say, by reason of a person's criminal record, intemperate habits and so on—what other grounds might there be to justify the refusal of a shot-gun certificate? Can the noble Lord say what guidance, if any, will be given to chief constables in deciding whether a certificate will be granted or not? It may be said that if these rules are strictly applied some people of a rather irresponsible nature may thereby be prevented from acquiring shot-guns, which may be very desirable; but is that really the purpose of the Bill? The purpose of the Bill is to prevent serious crime. Another case is that of the village poacher, for instance, who may be a very worthy citizen in many respects, except that he has an unfortunate predilection for some of the squire's pheasants. Can that person be treated as a criminal? He probably would not have a criminal record. He might have a conviction for trespassing in pursuit of game or something like that. This Bill is rather using a steam-hammer to crack a nut, and I submit that that is all that Part V of the Bill will ever achieve. It will crack the little nuts, but it will leave the big fish (I must apologise for the mixed metaphor)

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—it will leave the coconuts (shall we say?) relatively unscathed.
Most of us know someone who has a reputation among his friends for occasionally letting off a shot uncomfortably near to his neighbour at a shoot. Such a person may be a perfectly respectable citizen, but if he has a reputation of being an unsafe shot, is that sufficient ground for a chief officer of police to refuse to grant him a certificate? Then there is the question of disabled persons. I am sure some of your Lordships will know people who have one eye or one arm and are perfectly safe and often very good shots, indeed sometimes considerably better than some of us who have all our limbs and our faculties. A chief constable might, in all innocence, refuse to grant a shot-gun certificate to anyone in that category because he might think that person was not really safe with a gun. These are my reasons for putting down this Amendment, which is to insert the word "good" and to make it read "unless he has good reason to believe".
Although I am moving this Amendment, No. 88, these remarks of mine can also be applied to the following Amendment, No. 89. We must have some clear definition of what guidance is to be given to chief officers of police and on what grounds a shot-gun certificate may be granted or refused. There is the reference to intemperate habits, for instance; some of us know certain people who shoot all the better after lunch, rather better after lunch than before it. Having waded into the steak and kidney pie and a few glasses of beer and perhaps a glass or two of port, they shoot like kings afterwards. Could one say that such a person is of intemperate habits and unfit to be entrusted with a shot-gun? These are my reasons for moving this Amendment. The real object of Part V of the Bill is to prevent professional criminals from getting hold of shot-guns, and most of these provisions will have very little effect on them. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 10, after ("has") insert ("good").—(Lord Swansea.)
3.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I want to say a word on this matter. I am rather puzzled when looking at the Firearms Act 1937, to see that subsection (2) contains the words
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"has any good reason"
and also in the proviso
"the chief of police has reason to believe".
Presumably the word "good" was inserted in that Act for a good reason, and left out of the proviso also for a good reason, but I must say that for the life of me I cannot see what the distinction is, because if the policeman is going to act on any reason one would hope that it would be a good reason and not a bad one. But there is that distinction drawn by Parliamentary draftsmen of great experience and skill, and, as I understand it my noble friend wants to make it quite clear that the chief officer of police shall act only for good reasons and not for reasons which are not so good. There is something to be said for clearing up this difficulty which arises under the 1937 Act.
Further, I would ask the noble Lord what is the main object of these provisions. Is it to stop shot-guns from getting into the hands of criminals and people who would use them for crime, or is it to try to secure the safe use of shot-guns? When one looks at the Firearms Act, the application of Section 2 to guns rather leads one to suppose that it is directed to securing the safe use of guns. If that is so, I am rather sorry about the consequences for chief officers of police, because I think they will get few invitations to shoot. If they get an invitation to shoot and someone, as my noble friend has said, fires a little close to them, they will withdraw his certificate, because the Bill as amended will provide that the chief officer of police shall not grant a certificate to a person who he believes is prohibited by the Act from possessing a shot-gun,
"or to be of intemperate habits or unsound mind, or to be for any like reason unfitted to be entrusted with such a firearm".
Those last words are as wide as they possibly could be—"unfitted for any reason to be entrusted with such a firearm." I can imagine a chief constable, if some pellets have gone close to him, saying that this is the best of all possible reasons to see that the person firing is no longer entrusted with a firearm. Is that to be the object here, that there is to be some police supervision over the use of the guns to secure safety; or is the object of these provisions, as I thought, to

815
prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals? If it is the latter, then I think the Government ought to give further thought to the application of subsection (2) of the 1937 Act.
3.14 p.m.
LORD BOWLES: The noble Lord, Lord Swansea, went rather wider than his two Amendments and had a general discussion in relation to the way in which a chief constable would consider and grant or refuse an application for a shot-gun certificate. Each application will be made on its merits, and the effect of the Bill will be that the police will have to make out a particular reason for refusing a shot-gun certificate. In consequence, any law-abiding member of the public will obtain his certificate virtually upon application. The right of appeal to quarter sessions in England and Wales will effectively prevent arbitrary practices from arising.
The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, raised a point on the question of good reason, or just simply reason, which bothered me to start with. He will note that the effect of Clause 69(5)(a), as proposed to be amended, would be to provide that a
"shot-gun certificate shall be granted by the chief officer of police unless he has good reason to believe the applicant to be prohibited by"—
the Firearms Act 1937—
"from possessing a firearm to which this Act applies, or to be of intemperate habits or unsound mind, or to be for any like reason unfitted to be entrusted with such a firearm."
The word "good" adds nothing to the meaning of the provision. Either one has reason for believing, grounds for believing, or one has not. There are no good and bad reasons, as grounds for believing. They are either valid reasons or invalid reasons, and invalid reasons are no reasons at all.
An attempt was made by the noble Lord to justify the addition of the word "good" on the ground that Section 2 of the 1937 Act requires an applicant for a firearms certificate to satisfy the police that he has a good reason for possessing a Part I firearm. The situation is, however, not the same—the applicant for a firearms certificate has to show that he has a reason for wanting a firearm which is socially acceptable. It is quite possible for a person to have a reason for
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wanting a firearm which is undesirable or even criminal.
Suppose a Mr. Buggins was rather worried that he might be shot up and he asked the chief constable to let him have half-a-dozen revolvers. He would think this a good reason for possessing those revolvers for his own self-defence, but I do not suppose any noble Lord in this House would think that to put those arms in the hands of a person in that state of mind or in that position would be socially acceptable, to use the words I used just now. Therefore I think the word "good" in that sense in the 1937 Act means good for socially accept able reasons and not reasons which are undesirable or even criminal. The purpose of the provision is to permit that sort of value judgment to be made.
No similar consideration arises where the requirement is that the refusal shall be based on a belief for which there is a reason or ground. Were the Amendment accepted, one effect would be to leave the corresponding phrases in Section 2 of the Firearms Act 1937 in regard to firearms certificates as "has reason" and "to be for any reason", which would be in close juxtaposition to the shot gun certificate phrases of "has good reason" and "to be for any like reason". The contrast will become most marked when this legislation is consolidated, as we hope it will be next Session. Defence counsel would be quick to jump at the distinction between "good reason" and "reason". No difference in meaning between the two contexts is intended, and therefore the same words must be used.
LORD DERWENT: I had wondered from the beginning why this Part of the Bill is included. The Firearms Bill has nothing to do with criminal justice. I must say that the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, has now confirmed that by what he has said. He is quite right in saying that under the present Firearms Act there has, in effect, to be a reason for possessing a firearm. But the noble Lord has said that it would be perfectly easy for anyone to get a firearm; it is really a question of applying, and there will be so many millions of applicants, in the ordinary way that no questions will be asked and you will get it. The only reason you will not get it is if a particular chief officer of police or one of his police officers knows that you are not a reputable

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person. What is to stop one of my local police officers or the chief constable saying of me in my more drunken moments, "I am afraid that Lord Derwent is drinking too much and he ought not to go out shooting"? But if I come to London and want to buy a gun, there is nothing to stop me. No policeman here knows that I am not a teetotaller. This does not make sense, so far as I can see. Anyone can get a gun. All this is going to mean is an enormous amount of paperwork for the police.
Even at this moment, on this Amendment, may I suggest that the Government should withdraw this Part of the Bill? Because there will be no difficulty for a criminal in getting a shot-gun, particularly in a different part of the country. If we are only thinking about criminals, as apparently this Bill is, what is the point of this Part of the Bill? The noble Lord has said that all most people have to do is just to fill in a form.
3.20 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: I read this Part of the Bill for the first time only in the last ten minutes, and on reading it I was puzzled to know why my Front Bench had not moved to leave it out, because I think it is quite the silliest thing I have ever seen. It is continuing Her Majesty's Government's predilection for creating more work for the Civil Service. As if the police have not enough work to do already, they have now do issue I do not know how many hundreds of thousands of certificates. They may even ask for a photograph of anybody who is going to own a firearm. This will put an immense amount of work on the police. They will have to recruit many more people and, as my noble friend Lord Derwent said, the genuine criminal who sets out to use a shot-gun instead of a revolver for his nefarious purposes will not have the slightest difficulty in buying one "under the counter" anywhere. The criminal who intends to commit armed robbery has no firearms certificate. He buys a firearm for the specific purpose. Why will it be any more difficult for him to get a shot-gun than it is to-day for him to get a revolver? The thing just does not make sense. This is bureaucracy run mad.
3.22 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, dealt
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with the last part of my speech. I would ask him specifically to give an answer to the question: are these provisions intended to try in some way to prevent guns from getting into the hands of professional criminals and the criminal classes, or is the intention in some way to supervise their use for the promotion of safety? Under the Firearms Act one had both. If it were for the first purpose I would fully support it, but I doubt the adequacy of these provisions for achieving it. But if it is the second purpose, I do not think a case has been made out. We are now considering a narrow Amendment before we come to the Question whether the clause shall stand part of the Bill. When one comes to the Question whether the clause shall stand part, one can always vote that the clause shall not stand part without first having put down a Motion on the Paper.
On this particular Amendment the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, kindly read out how the section would read if these Amendments were accepted; the word "good" and the word "like" would go in in their respective places. But, without these Amendments being made, am I not right in saying that the widest possible discretion is given to a chief officer of police for refusing a certificate? He can refuse a certificate if for any reason he thinks the person applying for it is unfit to be entrusted with a shot-gun. What can be wider than that? And that is in no way related to preventing a gun from getting into the hands of the criminal classes. I suggest that the noble Lord ought to think again about this provision, and I should have thought that if the purpose is to have a register of guns so that one knows where they ought to be, then this kind of provision ought to be cut out.
LORD BOWLES: I meant to say to the noble and learned Viscount that the object of this Part of the Bill is twofold. One is to prevent guns as far as possible from getting into the hands of criminals, and the other is to increase the safety of the general public. I do not think that it is quite true to say that any chief constable can refuse a certificate on any grounds he likes. If he has reason, he has to go to quarter sessions if the person who is refused a licence appeals. The guns about which we are now talking are those of 24 inches or more in

819
length—I do not think it matters about their bore—which would be more visible than a gun of less than 24 inches. In other words, you can carry a shorter gun in your pocket, pull it out and shoot somebody very quickly before he has a chance to do anything.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Has the noble Lord never heard of sawn-off shot guns?
LORD BOWLES: I have, and I am going to refer to them. This Bill seeks to increase the powers under the 1937 Act, because there has been an increase in the number of crimes caused by long shot-guns. The idea is that more registration the better, because we are anxious so far as possible to prevent any further increase in crime. Although the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said he did not think this is quite the right Bill in which to introduce these matters, it is surely the essence of criminal justice that everything possible should be done to stop the spread of crime. Therefore I would justify the inclusion of this Part in the Bill.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: The noble Lord, Lord Bowles, in his original answer said that anybody in England and Wales who felt aggrieved at the refusal of the chief constable to give him a licence for a shot-gun could appeal. Are we in Scotland not going to be allowed to appeal? Unfortunately this is a Part of the Bill which applies to Scotland. It seems strange that one may appeal against such a refusal in England and Wales, but, so far as one can see, one has no appeal in Scotland. Perhaps the noble Lord will say something about this.
LORD BOWLES: I have not studied all the Scottish Law on the situation, but I will look it up and let the noble Duke know.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Perhaps I can help the noble Lord. If he looks at Section 2 (8) (b) of the Firearms Act 1938 he will find the answer: one goes to the sheriff. But I do not think this meets the point. If the noble Lord is relying on reasons which the Government think are the right ones for refusing a certificate, it is no use saying that the remedy is to go to quarter sessions, or in Scotland to the sheriff, because those
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quarter sessions and that sheriff are bound by exactly the same wording in the Act as is the chief officer of police in the first place. If no guidance is given to quarter sessions or to the sheriff, why should they not agree with the chief officer of police in the reason—which some have suggested may not be the one which is intended by the legislation—for refusing the certificate? There is no possible remedy here.
Moreover, if the noble Lord suggests that this is going to bring uniformity, could he tell the House in what way it will be achieved? As the noble Lord no doubt knows, the decisions of quarter sessions are not reported. In regard to quarter sessions decisions you cannot find, unless you are very lucky, a report of what was said, let alone the reasons why it was said. Even if you can find a report relating to one area, that is no reason why quarter sessions in another part of the country should take the same view, and the facts are very seldom set out. So there is in this provision no guarantee at all of uniformity, and the noble Lord should think again about it.
LORD BOWLES: I should have thought that if the noble Viscount means what he has just been saying, that quarter sessions are not reported and therefore that one quarter sessions does not know what another quarter sessions is doing, there is hardly any point in his practising before the quarter sessions at all.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Lord would perhaps know that the point of practising before quarter sessions is, so far as I am concerned, to deal with the case which is before quarter sessions at that moment. It is no use going to them and saying, "I have found an obscure report in the Solicitors' Journal of something that happened at the Northumberland quarter sessions, and think you should do the same". They are not necessarily going to follow, and the report will not always give you the facts on which the other quarter sessions based their decisions. The practice in quarter sessions is, as I say, to deal with the case which is before the court. There is every justification for doing that, and it does not produce uniformity.
LORD BOWLES: Let me make myself clear. The noble Viscount, when he

821
practises before quarter sessions, does not go there merely to see that the ruling of some other quarter sessions is followed. He goes there to try to get justice in the matter on which he is appealing.
LORD CHAMPION: Are we now discussing the Question, That the clause shall stand part of the Bill, or are we discussing the Amendment which is being moved? It seems to me that we have strayed into a discussion on "Clause stand part". On this whole business of the possession of firearms, surely it is very important to remember that it is to be an offence if you are found with a weapon in your possession. Parliament has made it an offence for anybody to have in his possession an offensive weapon. In fact, it was not long ago that Parliament decided that the carrying of flick knives in certain circumstances—that is to say, having them in possession—was an offence. It was quite right that Parliament should have taken that decision. Surely in this case, even though it may be fairly easy for a certain person to get a certificate, the fact that the certificate enables him to acquire a shot-gun means that if he passes it on to someone else who ought not to have it in his possession he is guilty of an offence. It is surely right and proper that Parliament should make it possible to impose a penalty on anyone who has that offensive weapon in his possession without a certificate.
LORD DERWENT: May I say this in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Champion? On the question of flick knives, which were being dealt with in thousands, or perhaps only hundreds, there was no very great additional work for the police. But I would ask the Committee to remember that we are here dealing with an unknown quantity of shot-guns, although a conservative estimate is that there are 1,500,000 in the country. If it is true that there are 1,500,000 shot-guns in general use in the country, it will not he at all difficult for a criminal to get hold of one.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: May I point out that there is no possible justification for anyone carrying a flick knife, which is purely an offensive weapon, whereas 999 out of 1,000 shot-guns are used for perfectly respectable purposes.
LORD CHAMPION: In that case there is no offence. So who is worrying about it? I am not.
LORD SWANSEA: I must say that I am rather disappointed that the Government have not seen fit to accept this Amendment, in spite of the pressure which has been put upon them by my noble friends. I hope the Government will think that this is a point which deserves further consideration by them, because there is a danger of a lack of uniformity in the application of these provisions in different parts of the country. One chief constable may not take the same line as another, and in the case of appeals one court may not take the same line as another.
Concerning appeals, which have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, there is of course the right to appeal to quarter sessions. But I wonder how many people, having been refused a shot-gun certificate, will really take the trouble and go to the expense of putting in an appeal. We must remember that many such people might be of slender means who just could not afford the expense of an appeal to quarter sessions. I seriously considered putting down a further Amendment to this Bill, to enable appeals to go to magistrates' courts instead of to quarter sessions for that very reason. But on the whole I think that although quarter sessions might vary from one area to another, they might take a slightly more unbiased view of each case.
I ask myself how many people would be able to go to the trouble and expense of an appeal to quarter sessions. If I were in the position of being of slender means, I think I would just take a chance and go on possessing my shot-gun, and perhaps getting "had up" and fined now and again, so long as I did not commit a serious crime. Anyhow, I very much hope that the Government will think again about this matter before the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (BARONESS WOOTTON OF ARINGER): Before I call Amendment No. 90, I must point out to the Committee that if that Amendment is carried I cannot call Amendment No. 91.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to leave out subsection (7). The noble Lord said: Subsection (6) of Clause 69 exempts overseas visitors from the need to have shot-gun certificates until they have been in the country for one month in the last 12 months. The purpose of this Amendment is to delete subsection (7) which at present enables the Secretary of State, by rules, to reduce the period of one month to something less.
When the Bill was first introduced, subsection (6) provided for a period of exemption of three months. Three months was proposed as the outside limit, and it was recognised that a reduction was likely. Subsection (7) was therefore provided as an easy way to make such a reduction, by rule, after the Bill was passed. But, in fact, at a later stage in another place the Bill was amended to reduce the period to one month, and during discussion of the Amendments the point was taken that the reduction of the period of exemption to one month imposed a considerable restriction on regular visitors, and that certainly no further reduction could be contemplated as it would be regarded as unnecessarily harsh. The position has therefore been reconsidered and it has been decided that the power, which would be unlikely to be used, can and should be abandoned, and that therefore subsection (7) should be removed from the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 20, leave out subsection (7).—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD SWANSEA: I must say that I am sorry that this Amendment to leave out subsection (7) has been moved, because—
LORD STONHAM: May I interrupt the noble Lord at the beginning of his speech? I am sorry, but an important Statement has to be made, and as we shall be a long time on these Amendments it may be convenient if the Statement is made now.
House resumed.

RADCLIFFE REPORT ON 'D' NOTICES
3.37 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, with permission I should like to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is making in another place about the Radcliffe Report. I shall use his own words, and I am now quoting the Prime Minister.
"The Government have received the Report of the Committee of Privy Counsellors who were appointed ' to examine the circumstances surrounding the publication of an article in the Daily Express of February 21, entitled "Cable Vetting Sensation" in relation to the 'D' Notice system; and to consider what improvements, if any, are required in that system in order to maintain it as a voluntary system based on mutual trust and confidence between the Government and the Press in the interests alike of the freedom of the Press and of the security of the State'.
"The Government wish to take this opportunity to thank Lord Radcliffe and his two colleagues for the great care and thoroughness with which they have examined a very complex subject.
"The Report itself will be published in full; and it will be available to honourable Members in the Vote Office at 4 p.m."
That is, in our case, the Printed Paper Office.
"I should also tell the House that the Report has an Annex dealing with certain very secret aspects of the Committee's inquiry; and in accordance with the Committee's recommendations this will not be published. Naturally, however, in accordance with our normal custom in these matters, the Annex has been made available, together with the Report itself, to the right honourable gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.
"Moreover, in view of the importance and complexity of the issues involved, the Government have thought it right, with the concurrence of Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues, to publish, in addition, the evidence which was given to the Committee. Certain portions of this evidence have had to

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be omitted on grounds of security; but the whole of it has been seen by the right honourable gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and I think he will confirm that he is satisfied that the omissions are necessary on security grounds.
"Finally, in the light of the Report the Government have closely examined all the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the actions of the Departments concerned, and also considered its implications for the future of the 'D' Notice system. The Government's conclusions are contained in a White Paper which is being published simultaneously with the Report and Evidence.
"The Government have been giving very careful thought to the lessons to be drawn from this incident by both parties to the D' Notice system. The White Paper emphasises in the following words that:
'the Government attach the greatest importance to maintaining and strengthening the 'D' Notice system and to retaining the free and voluntary co-operation of the Press in its effective working. For their part they will do all in their power, consistently with their overriding responsibility for national security, to contribute to this purpose.'
"I propose therefore to take the earliest opportunity of discussing personally with the Press how this might best be done.
"When honourable Members have had time to study the documents which are being published to-day, the House will no doubt wish to debate them; and the necessary arrangements can be discussed through the usual channels."
My Lords, that ends the Prime Minister's Statement.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: My Lords, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches I should like to thank the noble Earl the Leader of the House for having repeated the Prime Minister's Statement here. I am sure he will appreciate that until we have read the Report and the White Paper it is difficult to comment, or indeed to ask pertinent questions, but perhaps he would take note that it may be that, after we have had that opportunity, it will seem desirable to debate the subject in your Lordship's House, too.
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We cannot tell as yet. I would, however, put one question. Can the noble Earl tell us whether the Government's conclusions about the incident of February 21, set out in the White Paper, go beyond what has been summarised in the Prime Minister's Statement? The Statement informed us of the Prime Minister's intention to discuss the whole matter with the Press, but what were the Government's actual conclusions about the incident of February 21?
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches I should like to thank the noble Earl for repeating this Statement. I feel, in somewhat the same way as does the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, that it is difficult to make any sensible comment or even to ask questions when we have so little before us. But I think it is important, as the Government have said, to retain the free and voluntary co-operation of the Press in the effective working of the 'D' Notice system, and we are very glad that the Government have reiterated that point.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their readiness to await the documents before offering any comments, and I can assure them that of course we are available to discuss with them at any time the question of any further elucidation that it is felt is required. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, asked me about the Government's conclusions relating to the incident which led to all this argument. I should hesitate to summarise the Report or the White Paper, and I think, if I might say so, that if the noble Lord and others will wait just a few minutes more they will be able to make up their own minds on that particular point.
LORD ROWLEY: My Lords, can the House take it from the Statement of the Prime Minister that the Government consider that the publication of these articles on February 21 and 22 did not in any way damage our national security? Secondly, could the noble Lord amplify the reference to the implications as to the future of the 'D' Notice system referred to in the Statement?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am very sorry, but I should not care to add anything this afternoon.

827
It certainly would be misleading to suggest that the Government, now that all this has been gone into, wish to pay any kind of tribute to these articles; but I think that for me to add any further criticism now, until noble Lords have had a chance of examining the documents, would be unfair. I think, therefore, that I had better leave the matter where it is for this afternoon.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
3.45 p.m.
House again in Committee.
LORD SWANSEA: I should like to say briefly that I think it is a pity the Government are seeking to remove this subsection from the Bill. I think that any legislation of this sort ought to be flexible. We are introducing provisions of an entirely new sort: I do not know of any parallel case. I feel that there ought to be some provision for this period in respect of overseas visitors to be varied at the discretion of the Minister. These requirements for a shot-gun certificate are likely to prove rather irksome to visitors from abroad. Quite a number come over from year to year for the purposes of shooting, and they bring in some very valuable dollars and other foreign currency. A person may come into this country twice within a period of twelve months. For instance, he may come over in November or December to shoot pheasants, and he may come over again the following August to go up to Scotland to shoot grouse. If his combined stay during that period exceeds one month, he then has to go to the police and go through all the palaver of applying for a shot-gun certificate.
The noble Lord, Lord Bowles, has said that there will be no trouble about issuing these certificates; that they will be issued "on the nod" to respectable people. That may be; but one would have thought that in the case of foreigners the police might reasonably be expected to make certain inquiries into the background of a person to make sure that he really is a respectable person. A period of one month is, I think, too short. As the Bill stands at present, there is discretion for the Secretary of State to reduce that period still further. I cannot
828
think of any circumstances in which that period should be further reduced, but it would be quite easy to think of circumstances, after these provisions have had a period of trial, in which it might be decided that this period should be extended. I feel that some provision should be left in the Bill for a discretion in that respect.
LORD STONHAM: Although the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, presents his case with such restraint, I am bound to say that I find his criticisms somewhat captious, and that he is rather difficult to please. I very carefully explained that, as a result of long discussions in another place with people who are keenly interested in this subject, and very knowledgeable about it, the original provision of three months, plus flexibility for the making, of rules by the Secretary of State, was withdrawn in favour of a period of one month. It was thought that in any case there would be no wish to reduce the period below one month, and that accordingly there was not need for subsection (7), which I sought the agreement of the Committee to remove from the Bill. That is to say, the period would not be less than one month.
The noble Lord regrets the removal of the subsection mainly, as I understand it, on the ground that it is likely to be irksome to some visitors who come here for one month during the year and then later in the same year come for another month. I do not think it is very irksome to expect the visitor who comes here for two separate months in a year to have to apply for a shot-gun certificate. If they are well-known people—as they would be if they were coming regularly in that way—they would not have any difficulty with the police. I am sure that there would not be any need to consult Interpol about their antecedents and background. I thought that this was a proposal that the Committee in general, and the noble Lord in particular, would welcome. I only hope that on reflection he will find that it is one that can be supported.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: Another Statement has to be made, and I think this would be a convenient time to break off.
House resumed.

THE MIDDLE EAST
3.52 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by by right honourable friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs on the latest situation in the Middle East. The Statement is as follows:
"The main development in the Arab/Israel conflict since the Foreign Secretary's statement in the House has been the achievement of a cease-fire on the Syrian front. The cease-fire is now being generally maintained. To-day we have heard that the Soviet Government intend to ask for the Middle East to be discussed at the Special Assembly of the United Nations.
"It was to me encouraging that General Odd Bull of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation, played a key part in arranging the final and effective cease-fire and that UNTSO observers are now in position on both sides of the cease-fire line. This Government, and indeed the House as a whole, have expressed the view that wherever there has been a United Nations presence on both sides of the borders it has greatly helped in preventing conflict. I hope it will become a key factor of all the border arrangements. As an immediate step towards making UNTSO as effective as possible during the present critical period, I hope that General Bull will be able to return to the UNTSO Headquarters in Jerusalem.
"I now turn to some specific points on which the House would like to have information. The first is the question of British subjects in the area. As the Foreign Secretary told the House in an earlier Statement, emergency evacuation arrangements have been put into operation wherever the situation on the ground warranted it. British subjects have been evacuated over land from Syria into Turkey and from Iraq into Iran.
"Over 300 British subjects were evacuated in American aircraft on Sunday morning from Amman to Tehran, where they were picked up by British aircraft to complete their journey to
830
this country. I would like to express our gratitude to the United States Government for their generous assistance in this operation. I am glad to report that as far as we know in all these cases the evacuation has been completed without any loss of life. Evacuation arrangements for British subjects in Egypt are in hand and over 300 left Alexandria this morning.
"The Suez Canal remains closed to navigation. The Canal Authority has said that the Canal is obstructed by small vessels sunk by Israeli action, but the Israeli authorities have denied taking any such action. The position seems to be that some vessels are sunk in the waterway.
"Four British cargo ships are in the Great Bitter Lake in the canal, together with several ships of other nationalities. We are in close touch with the owners concerned and they in turn have had some limited radio contact with the ships themselves. Some food supplies are running short, but we understand it is possible to obtain fresh supplies locally.
" We have asked the Canadian Government, who act for us in the absence of diplomatic relations with the United Arab Republic, to inquire urgently of the U.A.R. authorities what the prospects are for the early departure of the four ships and also to give the crews whatever help they can.
"As regards oil, exports from Arab countries are still stopped or restricted. The readjustment of existing supplies and the high level of stocks in many importing countries (including the United Kingdom) provide a breathing space during which it is hoped the tensions which led to the supply interruptions will ease and more normal conditions return. It has been made clear to the Governments concerned that the allegations of British and American intervention, which were the immediate cause of the supply interruptions, are completely without foundation. In the meantime the main importing countries and the other countries associated with them in the O.E.C.D. are at this moment consulting together on the supply question.

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"We are naturally very concerned about the human suffering emerging in the aftermath of the fighting. We are acutely disturbed about the danger of a new refugee problem being superimposed on the existing one. This is in our view a practical matter of human importance which concerns the whole international community, and to which the United Nations Organisation should address itself urgently.
"Meanwhile, we have information that large numbers of refugees have already crossed to the East bank of the River Jordan. It seems plain that a relief problem of major proportions is building up. The voluntary organisations in this country are considering what they can do. Her Majesty's Government have agreed to make financial provision for emergency relief in Jordan and we are urgently looking to see what we can provide from British Government stocks in Cyprus as a first step.
"So much for the present. We must now look to the future. There is clearly going to be a long process of negotiations and bargaining ahead before the shape of a settlement emerges. It is our hope that the United Nations will be able to play a vigorous and realistic part in this process. Certainly the United Kingdom delegation will do its utmost to contribute to achieving that outcome."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. It begins by stating that a United Nations presence on both sides of the border will be an essential factor in any settlement; and, of course, nobody could disagree with that. But I am sure that the Government will bear in mind that the last United Nations presence evaporated, was taken away, at the moment that trouble began, and that, in spite of the efforts of the British Government and their friends to get a resolution for a cease-fire as soon as the fighting began, the United Nations would not agree to any cease-fire resolution until it was evident that the Egyptians were being defeated and the Israelis were winning. If we are to be
832
realistic about this, I think that we must recognise that very much more concrete and effective guarantees must be given than have been given in the past before confidence can be restored in the ability, and indeed in the will, of the United Nations to give any effectual protection to the victims of aggression.
We regret deeply, of course, the reasons which have made necessary the evacuation of British subjects. This, together with the oil embargo, appears to be part of a deliberately thought-out, long-term campaign of anti-West hate which is now being built up by many elements in the Arab world, based on sheer mendacity and supported, it appears, by the Communist countries. I do not think it would be useful at the present moment to question the Government about this aspect.
The only question I should like to ask them is about the refugees. This is an urgent and terrible problem, and one that has been exacerbated by the events of last week. Would it not be possible for us now, without waiting for a peace settlement—which might mean waiting for a very long time—with our friends and allies in NATO, to get together to ask Israel and any Arab countries that are willing to co-operate whether we could start immediately on a large-scale scheme, not only for relief but, if possible, for the resettlement of these wretched people, both the new ones and those who have been there for so long.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for making that long and, I think, on the whole, satisfactory Statement—at all events, as satisfactory as it can be in the present difficult circumstances. There are just one or two questions on detail that I should like to ask the noble Lord. First, would he confirm that the Israeli forces sustained considerable casualties in taking the old City of Jerusalem; that because of their desire not to damage the City and the Holy places, they went in without bomb, artillery or mortar support? If this is so, should not we be very grateful to the Israelis for the way in which they handled this matter?
Secondly, as to the refugees, may I support what the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, has proposed—in fact I was going to

833
propose it myself; namely, that we should get together, with our allies in NATO, who are much concerned in this area, to see whether something can be done urgently for the refugees.
As we all know, to depend upon the United Nations Organisation addressing itself urgently to any matter which means action is really depending upon a broken reed at the moment, and it is no good trying to bluff ourselves otherwise. I believe that NATO could operate very quickly with immense resources if we asked them to do so. In fact, the Secretary-General this morning has indicated something on those lines. Thirdly, and lastly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has heard anything of the Dead Sea Scrolls which, I gather, were abandoned in the old City of Jerusalem by the Jordanians, which are of immense value to us all, and to the world, and which we should not like to see damaged in any way? Has there been any news of them?
4.3 p.m.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, in reply to the questions of the noble Earl, I think he will find when he studies the OFFICIAL REPORT that my comment about the United Nations Forces was not exactly as he quoted it. I do not want to make too much of that point, but I should like to say that the remark in the Statement about the United Nations presence referred specifically to United Nations presence on both sides of the disputed line. The noble Earl will well know that the United Nations presence to which he referred, and which was withdrawn at the beginning of recent events, was a presence on one side of the disputed line only, and perhaps it was in this fact that a good deal of the difficulty lay.
So far as the future of the United Nations action in the whole of this case is concerned, I believe that whatever may have been the difficulties, and perhaps even the mistakes, of the United Nations in the past, it is now up to us to support it in whatever efforts it is making to bring about a lasting settlement in the area. I regret and deplore any suggestion that the United Nations is an empty organisation or that it is incapable of action. It will become incapable of action only if the great Powers of the world, including ourselves, cease to support it. Her Majesty's Government will continue to support it
834
in all its efforts to bring about a lasting peace in the Middle East.
My Lords, anti-Western hate and bitterness in the Middle East is, of course, a part of a legacy of bitterness and intransigence which is bound to eat very deeply into the hearts of everybody in the Middle East after the terrible events of the last few days. I think it would be wrong and unwise of us to engage in any recriminations about this. It is our task now to remove that bitterness as quickly as we can and to normalise our relationships, and to improve and bring back our good relations with all countries throughout the Middle East without apportioning blame and adding to the bitterness that already exists.
So far as the refugees are concerned, we are, my Lords, very much seized of the urgency of this matter. I shall take note of what the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, have said about this. I would point out to the noble Lord that the United Nations has not been entirely ineffective in respect of refugees in the past. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, has done extremely good work with refugees throughout the world, and I think that we should not be too pessimistic about the potential of the United Nations in this field.
Regarding the damage to the Holy places, I think it is confirmed that there was surprisingly little damage done to the Holy places in the fighting in Jerusalem. Whether this was due to good fortune or some other intervention, or whether it was due to the restraint of the Israeli forces, it is difficult to say entirely. However, we are thankful that little damage was done, and to the extent that it was due to the restraint in the action of the Israeli forces we are, of course, grateful.
My Lords, we have no news of the present situation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It seems evident from the reports that they were indeed abandoned when the custodians of them left their headquarters, but we have no firm information yet about what has happened to them. We shall, of course, keep a careful eye on developments about the Scrolls.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, while welcoming the Statement which the Minister has just made about the prospects and hopes of the United Nations

835
playing an active and effective part in bringing peace to the Middle East, is it not to be regretted that the Communist members of the United Nations have "ganged up" against Israel and broken off diplomatic relations?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, there has been a good deal of breaking off of diplomatic relations over the past few days in many directions. While I have every sympathy with what is behind my noble friend's question, I feel that now, at this particular moment of all moments in this crisis, we should not engage in recriminations even of that sort, but should see now what we can do from all sides to bring international relations back on to a normal, sane and intelligent basis. I sympathise with the noble Lord's question, but I feel that we have a great deal to do in the future and that we should look forward and not backwards.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, while approving the Government's desire to help the United Nations to help us, and all of us, is it not manifest that they are ineffectual and that the most likely enduring settlement, if there is to be one, would be between the nations concerned; namely, the Israel nation and the Arabs? Would not it be better to use Her Majesty's Government's influence to get these two together, rather than to bother with New York too much?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I know that your Lordships will not expect me to agree that it is manifest that the United Nations is ineffectual. It is not an ineffectual force; it has a great potential for peace, and it is in fact the only international organisation we have that could be said to have a real potential for peace-keeping and for the maintenance of stability throughout the world. In this particular crisis it has been difficult for anybody to enjoin sanity and responsible behaviour on those taking part. There has been, as I said, great bitterness and a great sense of conflict and crisis. Of course, it would be a welcome development if the Israelis and the Arabs could get together and settle their affairs together, but my own feeling is that this will be done eventually only in the context of the United Nations, in the context of a properly constituted international body. After all, my Lords,
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we must not forget that the cease-fire which brought this fighting to an end was a cease-fire enjoined and demanded by the Security Council of the United Nations.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, the Statement refers to evacuation from Amman of a number of British. Can the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, tell me whether they went voluntarily or whether the Government advised them to leave? I ask this question because I have a particular interest in the work of the Anglican Church in Jordan, as I am vice-chairman of the organisation that supports it. We have a British Archbishop in Jerusalem, and a number of Anglicans running hospitals and churches in Jordan. I should be most sorry to see them leave if it is possible for them to remain there in safety.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, the cases in the different Arab countries were different. In some it was thought prudent to evacuate people before they were asked to leave; in others they were asked to leave and given only a short time in which to leave. So far as the second part of the noble Lord's question is concerned, I do not have the information that will satisfy him at the moment, but I will find out and let him know.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, referring to what the noble Lord has said about the United Nations, may I make an appeal to him not to allow his enthusiasm for that Organisation to outweigh his sense of realism? Does he recollect that in answering questions last week he referred to the ceasefire as being a great triumph for the United Nations? I should have to refer to what my noble friend Lord Dundee said to show that that is far removed from the truth. It would be a pity—
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but could the noble Lord make his remarks in the form of a question?
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, I am asking whether the noble Lord would refrain from allowing his enthusiasm for the United Nations to run away from what must be a realistic view of what is going to settle the position in the Middle East.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I will undertake to control my enthusiasm if the noble Lord will control his prejudice. Whether we give the United Nations the full credit for what happened last week or not, I still maintain that to bring about a cease-fire between the Arabs and the Israelis in the circumstances obtaining at the time was a very great triumph indeed.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, if the noble Lord believes that, he will believe anything.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that one permanent member of the Security Council has definitely ranged itself on one side of this dispute? Can he give to the House an absolute assurance that there is no danger whatever of the United Nations becoming an instrument of Soviet policy?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think that it would be quite inappropriate for me to give any such assurance. That, I am sure, will be given adequately by the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Of course, the Security Council is subject to a veto of any one of its members. It is subject to the veto of the Soviet Union and it is equally subject to the veto of the United States or of Great Britain. I think we can be certain that the United Nations will not become the tool of the policies of any single member of its Security Council or the Assembly.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, could the noble Lord say what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the request of the Arab States in this conflict to France to act as a mediator? Does the noble Lord not feel that rather than rely entirely on the United Nations Her Majesty's Government should endeavour to exercise some influence upon Israel to support such a proposal?
LORD CHALFONT: I am not suggesting, in my unbridled enthusiasm for the United Nations, that they are the only organisation that can be useful in this case. Of course we shall welcome and are grateful for offers from any other sources that will help in settling
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affairs in the Middle East. We are particularly grateful for the ideas put forward by France and shall examine every possible way of helping to bring about a fair and lasting settlement in the area.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, will my noble friend not agree that it would have been very difficult for the United Nations to organise a cease-fire if Israel had not won?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I cannot pretend that the dramatic events in the Middle East have made it any more difficult to organise a cease-fire, but I think we must accept that even after the events of three days of fighting, it was still a considerable feat to persuade ever-body concerned in this fight—and this was not just a two-sided affair, but was Israel fighting against virtually all the Arab countries, some of them with different aims, different ideas and different political objectives from the others—to cease firing.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware how much we welcome his statement that the British Government have decided to grant immediately some emergency financial relief to assist these refugees? Is he able to indicate that in any permanent settlement that ultimately takes place in this troubled part of the world we, on our side, will try to ensure, in dealing with the great refugee problem of the future, that the financial assistance from our country and also from the United Nations will be linked up with a genuine rehabilitation of refugees, instead of allowing them to become a festering sore of political propaganda, as they have been during many decades in the past?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am grateful for the comment contained in the first part of my noble friend's question. As to the second part, of course we must realise that whatever we do in the short-term to help these wretched people—and I hope we shall be able to do a great deal—none of it will be really effective unless we can bring about some long-term and lasting settlement of their Problem, which we will certainly do our best to achieve.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
4.17 p.m.
House again in Committee.
LORD SWANSEA LORD SWANSEA moved, in subsection (8), at the beginning to insert "(a)". The noble Lord said: I am aware that a number of noble Lords are waiting to speak on the question that Clause 69 stand part, but this and my next two Amendments, which with your Lordships' permission I shall take together, deal with specific points on which those watching the Bill require clarification. I will be as brief as I can.
Subsection (8) says that a person may without holding a shot-gun certificate use a shot-gun at a place approved for shooting at artificial targets. I have yet to discover under what regulations and by what machinery a piece of ground is approved by the police for shooting at artificial targets, or at clay pigeons, as they are better known. We all know that a rifle range has to have approval under regulations laid down by the Ministry of Defence, but I am not aware of any regulations covering ground used for shooting at clay pigeons, either temporary or permanently. There are shooting schools of a permanent nature where people go for instruction. There are travelling fairs where there may be clay pigeon shooting as a sideshow and there may be such sideshows at charity fêtes and games.
Then there is the question of shooting at clay pigeons in private grounds. I may have a number of friends staying for the weekend, and finding that we have nothing to do I may suggest to them that I have a clay pigeon trap and a box of clays and that we should go into the field behind the house and "have a bang". They could use my gun. Some of my guests might not have shot-guns themselves and might not be in possession of shot-gun certificates. Taking part in practice with clay pigeons on private ground, are they committing an offence? Have I to go to the police and say: "I have this large field behind my house, and I have some friends coming for the week-end. If we have nothing else to do and want to have some practice, is it all right for us to shoot there?" And must I do that every time, or would one approval do for all time?
These are questions which are raised in one's mind by subsection (8). I am
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left wondering whether this subsection (8) creates in an indirect way a requirement for the approval of shooting of clay pigeons on a piece of ground. If, as it appears, an approval must be obtained, then it is possible to envisage circumstances in which it might be refused. In those circumstances it is only logical, fair and just that there should be machinery for bringing an appeal against such a refusal. That is the object of this Amendment. It follows the precedent in relation to other appeals under the Firearms Act, so that the appeal is to quarter sessions. I should have preferred the appeal to go to a magistrates' court, but I think that quarter sessions, as in the case of other appeals, might have a slightly more detached view.
There was considerable discussion on this point in Committee in another place, when the Government spokesman gave an undertaking that the Government would look at this matter again, because it is full of anomalies and very nebulous. So far as I know, they have not had another look at it, or, if they have, they have seen fit to leave the Bill as it is. I should be glad of some clarification on these points. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 25, at beginning insert ("(a)").—(Lord Swansea.)
LORD BOWLES: I am afraid the noble Lord has this wrong. The position is that the police have no power to license any piece of land for any event where shooting takes place. What they can say is that between 2 and 6 o'clock New Palace Yard can be open for shooting, but what they do is to allow people who have not a shot-gun certificate to shoot without being prosecuted. For instance, Bisley is well known to many of your Lordships. That is not licensed by the police. The people who are licensed are schoolboys and others who go down there without shot-gun certificates; the police give them permission to shoot, and they can shoot without being prosecuted, because they have the chief constable's consent.
I should perhaps give a little more detail. The effect of these Amendments would be to give a right of appeal to anyone who applied for a permit under Clause 69(8) and was refused. The appeal would lie to quarter sessions in England

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and Wales, and to the sheriff in Scotland. The purpose of Clause 69(8) is to allow a chief officer of police to give permit in respect of a particular place so as to allow shot-gun shooting there by people who have not got shot-gun certificates. Because the permit will provide an exception to the general law, it is clearly desirable that a permit should be regarded as a privilege, and not as a right. Accordingly, this proposal that anyone who asks for a permit and is refused should have a right of appeal is unacceptable. It would have the effect, in practice, of altering this privilege into some sort of right, so that the police could not refuse unless they were satisfied that they had grounds to advance against the proposal in the event of an appeal. Moreover, it is very necessary in the interests of safety that the police should have power to revoke the permit at any time. It would be very strange if there were a right of appeal against the refusal, but not against the revocation. In cases such as this, where one is making an exception to the general law, it is best, in the view of the Government, that the matter should be left to the discretion and good sense of the police.
I might say this in slightly different words. There may be a basic apprehension behind these Amendments, and I think the noble Lord was responsible and showed that he had a misapprehension. It may be thought that the chief officer of police would be empowered by Clause 69(8) to authorise the holding of an event or the use of a place for shot-gun shooting. This is not so. The subsection is not concerned with permitting an event to be held, or prescribing where and how it should be run. Competitions, practice grounds, and displays at shows will still continue to be held whether a chief officer refuses or gives his approval under Clause 69(8). All that his approval does is to permit, possibly, a minority of the participants at an event which will be held in any case, to take part without having first obtained shot-gun certificates. In effect, subsection (8) rationalises the police discretion not to prosecute in appropriate cases by permitting a chief officer of police to indicate in advance times and places where, subject to any safety or other conditions that may seem appro
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priate, the legal requirement to have a shot-gun certificate will be waived.
The noble Lord referred to clay pigeon shooting. I am not much of an expert. I have never shot anything in my life; I missed a target in about 1917 and have not been allowed to waste any Government ammunition since. But in the matter of clay pigeon shooting, this is done with the guns of people who have certificates, and they cannot lend their guns to people who have not certificates and allow them to use them without fear of prosecution. As regards the small ranges at fairs, I understand that the average gun there used is a ·22 and this is not a shot-gun within the meaning of the Bill. Bisley is one of the examples. Gunmakers also have places which are set aside by them for the purpose of demonstrating, and also for teaching youngsters, and probably older people as well, to learn how to shoot. If the chief of police says: "Let us carry on without a shot-gun certificate", then that can take place. The same thing applies to such things as agricultural fairs. I hope that, in the light of the misunderstanding, which is quite an easy one to fall into, the noble Lord will see his way to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD FERRIER: With the disappearance of the rabbit, clay pigeon shooting is the only medium by which young boys can be taught safely to practise with a shot-gun. For this purpose there are a number of small gun clubs up and down the country which would be put to some difficulty by this clause. While not supporting the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, I wonder whether it is fair to ask the Government to think again, particularly in regard to the words the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, used about the time and place at which shooting at artificial targets may be done. A general approval from a chief constable would perhaps be adequate to allow a gun club, properly constituted, to use a place at a time which might be suitable. It is sometimes not possible during the holidays to decide, as the noble Lord implied, and one might well say: "Let's have a go at the clay pigeons". In my neighbourhood, we have one with properly constituted stances, and it would be difficult to have a certificate for specific times as well as places. It might be made easier,

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without any danger to the public, so that shooting could be practised on a few occasions particularly during children's holidays.
LORD BOWLES: I think the position is this. The police have regard to the time and place, and then they say that anybody who shoots without a shot-gun certificate will not be prosecuted. It is as simple as that.
LORD SWANSEA: I must say that, having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, I am little wiser than I was before. He started off by saying that police approval on a piece of ground was not necessary, and then he went on to say that it was. Perhaps I may be forgiven, as he said, for being under a misapprehension as to the meaning of the clause. In that case, I can only suggest that this clause is very badly drafted in the first place, because it creates the impression that police approval is necessary. The noble Lord did not really answer my point about the group of persons wanting private practice on private ground when some may not have a shot-gun certificate. Would they be committing an offence?
LORD DERWENT: I think the noble Lord is going to withdraw the Amendment, and I should like a word with him before he does so.
LORD SWANSEA: Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, might like to answer that point.
LORD BOWLES: If anybody shoots without a shot-gun certificate, without the permission of the police, that person is committing an offence.
LORD SWANSEA: If I asked a party of friends on the spur of the moment to come into the field behind the house and shoot clay pigeons, may they not do so because I have not obtained police permission to use that piece of ground for clay-pigeon shooting? That would be absurd.
LORD BOWLES: I should have thought the position was quite simple. If the noble Lord wants to use ground at the back of his house for a private shooting party, and someone shoots without a shot-gun certificate, unless that person who is going to shoot has the permission of
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of the chief officer of police to do so he is committing an offence. One can telephone the police and say, "Between 4 o'clock and 7 o'clock to-night I am going to have this party. Will you allow shooting to take place within those hours at the back of my house?". If he does not get police permission, whoever shoots without a certificate is committing an offence.
LORD DERWENT: I can understand what the noble Lord says this clause means, but in fact it does not say it. What the noble Lord is saying is that the police officer gives permission for somebody to shoot, without a certificate, anywhere he likes.
LORD BOWLES: No; the place and time have to be laid down.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry—anywhere and at any time stated in the application. What in fact this clause says is that the police officer approves the place. What he approves is the shooting without a certificate; and this is not what the subsection says. I quite understand why my noble friend misunderstood it. It says exactly the opposite of what the noble Lord says it means.
LORD BOWLES: We accept that the noble Lord may have fallen into that trap, and I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has also done so. Nevertheless, the explanation of the meaning of this subsection is what I have stated.
LORD DERWENT: No one is in doubt about the explanation: we are all quite clear about it. But what we are not clear about is the drafting of the subsection. We say that it means exactly the opposite.
LORD BOWLES: I will find out whether the draftsmen might like to look at it again, in view of the debate, so that all the illusions and misunderstandings might disappear at the Report stage.
LORD CHAMPION: The point that interests me is that it says, "at a place approved". For what period is that approval given? Suppose the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, by chance, invited me to his home, and I happened not to possess a shot-gun. If he wanted to take me out for a little clay-pigeon shooting, would it be possible for him, some time

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before the event, to get an approval which would cover him for that place for all time; or must he on every occasion when I happened to visit him in these circumstances make a separate application to the police?
LORD BOWLES: It would not be relieving Lord Swansea at all. Lord Champion would be relieved of the prosecution. But it depends upon the terms laid down by the chief of police. If he says that for all time Lord Champion may shoot there, the permission applies for all time.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: May one presume that an ordinary shooting school, with stock and guns and clay pigeons, would have a permanent licence?
LORD BOWLES: I would mention Bisley as an example, which the noble Marquess knows. In the case of Bisley, the police would not stop the shooting; they do not even give Bisley permission for it. What they say is that anybody who shoots there in July and August will not be subject to prosecution. In other words, shooting without a shot-gun certificate may take place there at their festivals.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: I think we are making a lot out of this issue. Surely most of the people who wish to have this practice with a shot-gun will already have one of these certificates, so that this particular clause will not apply. As I understand it, the clause applies only to people who do not own a shot-gun and want to shoot casually, which I should have thought was a rare thing rather than a common one. Most people who use shot-guns will have these certificates.
LORD BOWLES: The noble Lord is perfectly right. If the police go to someone with a shot-gun and say, "Where is your certificate?", and he does not have one, or cannot produce it, the gun will be taken away until he does produce it or gets the shot-gun certificate.
LORD SWANSEA: This discussion has only confirmed my opinion of the rather slapdash way in which this Part of the Bill has been drafted. I am not going to press this Amendment, but I hope that the Government will take another
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long look at the drafting of this subsection, because it is very nebulous and open to misinterpretation. However, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.36 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to add to the clause:
"(11) Notwithstanding anything in section 2(4) of the Firearms Act 1937 (duration of firearms certificate), a shot-gun certificate issued before the expiration of six months from the date of the commencement of this Act shall continue in force for such period from that date or from the date when it is granted, whichever is the later, as may be specified in the certificate by the chief officer of police (being a period of not less than one year but not more than five years)."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 95. Its purpose is to enable special arrangements to be made to deal with the large number of applications which will be made for shot-gun certificates at the time the shot-gun certificate procedure comes into force. Although we have no very reliable way of forming an estimate, we are aware that there are a very large number of shot-gun owners. If they should all apply for shot-gun certificates when the new system comes into force, the police will be faced, as the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said, with a very considerable burden in dealing with them. If they were all given standard three-year certificates the burden would reappear at three-year intervals as a peak load of work. An initial surge of applications cannot be entirely avoided, but it is important to prevent the police from being faced with an embarrassing load of work at intervals of every three years. Our problem is so to arrange the renewals that they will result in an even spread. This means that certificates must be given for varying lengths of validity—I am talking about the transition period. It is considered that in no case should such certificates be valid for less than one year, and it is judged that the police should be able to have dealt with applications received during the period of initial surge within six months of the system's coming into force.
Once these factors are accepted, it follows that the validity of certificates will vary in length from one to four and a half years, and in order to allow for initial local difficulties it would be wise

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to allow a little longer than four and a half years for the longest certificate. Although it would not be possible to do much to spread out the initial surge of applications, as distinct from flattening out the triennial peak that would occur but for the arrangements which we propose, it would assist police a good deal if applications were made before the appointed day when Clause 49 comes into force. Accordingly, it is proposed to invite people to apply for shot-gun certificates during the period immediately preceding the appointed day and to provide that any certificate issued then shall be valid as from the appointed day. The Amendment which I move therefore provides that during the six months following the date when Clause 69 comes into force the chief constable may issue shot-gun certificates valid for any period between one and five years, and that he may issue shot-gun certificates for that period before the appointed day, which would take effect from the appointed day. In this way we hope to get over the initial load of work without discommoding the police too much—or indeed shot-gun owners themselves—and, once that initial period has been overcome, to avoid any peak of applications in future. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 39, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: At last we have an Amendment that makes practical common sense. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having thought this one out after our Second Reading debate. Can he say whether he has any idea when the appointed day might be?
LORD STONHAM: No, I cannot forecast when it is going to be. My right honourable friend must have consultation, and my Department will have consultation, with the chief officer of police, and difficulties must be assessed and agreement reached after consultations with all the interested parties, including the Gun Traders Association, as to what form the registration will take, whether or not it will be a certificate, and so on. When all those matters have been resolved, my right honourable friend will fix an appointed day, but before the appointed day becomes operative, we shall,
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by means of publication in the Press and so on, urge shot-gun owners or would-be shot-gun owners to apply for a certificate.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.43 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 69 shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Now has come the time to consider this clause, and indeed some of the other clauses of this Part of the Bill. To begin with, I think it is very curious indeed, and I would say wrong, to insert what is really a Bill to amend the Firearms Act, 1937, into a Bill which is called a Criminal Justice Bill. I can well see the reasons which led the Government to do this. Instead of having a separate amending Bill, as they ought to have done, which would have meant a Second Reading speech explaining exactly why they had introduced it, it is most convenient to slip it in as a part of this major Bill dealing with matters of general application. But now, surely, we are entitled to hear from the Government how they think these amendments of the Firearms Act will operate, and what useful purpose they will achieve.
I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Champion, saying that he thought this process of certification would do something to prevent the wrong use of firearms. I am all for doing what one can to prevent the wrong use of firearms, the use of shot-guns and other weapons by the criminal classes for armed robbery and things of that sort, but we all know that the customary shot-gun used in these circles is a sawn-off shot-gun, and when we look at this Part of the Bill we find that the Amendments do not apply to sawn-off shot-guns at all. So although I can be prosecuted if I have a perfectly normal gun in my possession without a certificate, the man who belongs to the criminal classes and uses sawn-off shot-guns for the purposes of his profession escapes with impunity.
LORD STONHAM: May I interrupt the noble Viscount? I am sure he must be aware that the possession of a sawn-off shot-gun comes under quite different legislation. A person would be liable to a penalty of ten years' imprisonment for even carrying a sawn-off shot-gun with intent to commit a felony.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: But that is with intent to commit a felony. Here we are not concerned with proof of carrying a weapon with intent to commit a felony. Everyone who possesses a shot-gun must have a certificate, and this particular certification procedure will not apply to sawn-off shot-guns. If one looks at the Bill, it will be seen that in Clause 72 it says that:
"'shot-gun' means a weapon specified in section 16(1)(a) of the Firearms Act, 1937."
If we turn to that particular provision we find that that means a shot-gun which has a barrel of not less than 20 inches in length.
Therefore, I make the point that this scheme, which will put a great burden upon the police—and not only upon the police, but upon everyone who possesses a shot-gun, which they can do quite lawfully—will not apply to the people who use these sawn-off shot-guns for criminal activities. I should have thought that that was one thing which shows that this scheme of amending the Firearms Act really has not been properly thought out at all.
I do not myself believe that this process of certification is likely materially to affect the use of firearms for the purposes of crime. I dare say it was argued that the use of log books would prevent, or make difficult, the theft of motorcars. I believe that that was one of the original reasons for the use of log books, although they are not certificates of title. But thefts of motorcars are unfortunately far too prevalent. I should like the Government to explain how they believe that by making every law-abiding citizen with a shot-gun in his possession apply for a certificate is going to reduce the use of these weapons by the criminal classes. There is, of course, a case for the rifle, which is a much more dangerous weapon. One has to be very careful indeed into whose hands it gets.
Just consider the tiresomeness of this provision. Every time someone takes his shot-gun to the gunmakers to have it repaired it means that he will be unable to take it away from his gunmaker unless he produces his firearms certificate. The gunmaker may have known that man for twenty years—indeed he may have made the gun—but still he will be committing an offence if he hands over the gun with
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out looking at this piece of paper. There will be an awful lot of paperwork to be done, and a lot of trouble will be caused. While I would strongly support any proposal to reduce the use of firearms by the criminal classes, I think these clauses go too far, and I would suggest to the Government that in my view they ought never to have been included in this Bill at all. The Government really should undertake to give very detailed consideration before Report stage to see that all the paperwork can be cut out, otherwise I shall be personally inclined to support any of my noble friends who think this is so badly prepared, so unworkable, and involves such excessive labour being placed on the police and the owners of the guns, that if they like to divide on the Question, That the clause stand part, at the present moment I should be inclined to support them.
To give one further example, may I remind the noble Lord that Clause 69 (1) says:
"Subject to any exemption having effect by virtue of this section any person who has in his possession or purchases or acquires a shot-gun without holding a certificate authorising him to possess shot-guns shall be guilty of an offence."
The wording is "a certificate authorising him to possess shot-guns"—in the plural. Is that deliberate? If it is deliberate, does it mean that the certificate will not show which guns he possesses? May I put this question to the noble Lord? Suppose I go and stay with the noble Lord sitting just behind me and I leave my guns there and go on somewhere else, and unknown to me he has not got a certificate, and unknown to him the guns are in his house, the guns are in his possession. Even if he had a certificate, that would not cover those guns. Does subsection (1) really mean that if a friend leaves guns in your house, in your possession, you will be committing an offence? You will not have a certificate relating to those guns; you will have a certificate relating to your own guns, but those guns of your friend will be in your possession.
Really, the language of this subsection seems to me too odd. To insist that every single time your gun goes to a gunmaker you must produce a certificate to get it back is such rubbish that the Government should say they will revise this clause drastically; if you like, merely

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provide a register of gun owners so that the police in their various districts know where they are, and, of course, deal with registered gunmakers and so on. The mistake here, as I see it, is to try to include in this Bill provisions which amend the Firearms Act 1937 and cover a far wider purpose than now intended to be achieved.
4.52 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: It is hardly possible that the Government understood what they were doing when they introduced this section of the Bill. The first four Parts of the Bill could well be described as the Criminal Justice (Encouragement of Evildoers) Bill; this Part could be described as the Criminal Injustice (Harassment of the Citizen) Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Bowles, has been constrained to admit that anyone shooting at a clay pigeon on somebody else's lawn, unless he has a certificate authorising him to do so, will be committing an offence. What happens when, as many of us do, we have people staying with us from Europe or parts of the Commonwealth or the United States? Such a person arrives and may want to take part in a day's shooting. As I read this Bill, he would be committing an offence unless one rushes off to the chief constable and gets a certificate for him, which of course it may not be easy to do at all. So far as one can see, all that is being done at the present time is simply, as I say, to harass the respectable citizen.
Everyone knows that one can get hold of pistols anywhere in London, if one knows where to go—and it is not difficult to find out—in night clubs and low public houses. There is no difficulty whatever about that. Why, then, should there be any more difficulty about people obtaining shot-guns, which, as the noble and learned Viscount rightly said, are not much use for the purposes of crime unless they are sawn off. Is it really to be conceived that all the owners of the 1 million or 2 million shot-guns in this country are going to register those weapons? Is it realised that even if that were practicable, which it certainly is not, it is the easiest thing for anyone with a little mechanical ingenuity to make a shot-gun or indeed a revolver? Only a few days ago I was at the opening of a new police station in Kinross in my capacity
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as chairman of the joint police committee of the two counties of Perth and Kinross. I there held in my hand an extremely ingenious weapon which had been taken in a line-up a few days before. It was a pistol, made in this particular case—and it is something much more difficult to make than a shot-gun—of all sorts of scrap; but I was informed that up to a reasonable distance it was deadly accurate. Anyone who has some ingenuity, a length of gas piping, two or three springs, a few screws and bits of other metal, can easily make himself a shot-gun or pistol.
In short, this Part of the Bill, however well intended, is not going to do one iota of good as far as prevention of crime is concerned; it will only be a hopeless nuisance to all respectable people, hundreds of thousands throughout the country, who use shot-guns for legitimate purposes. This Part of the Bill is so bad that it cannot be amended, and I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will shortly throw it out in toto.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I join with both my noble friends who have spoken in saying how ridiculous I think this Part of the Bill is. I cannot see it doing any good at all; it makes no sense. Presuming it does go through, I should like the Government to explain how they think it is going to work in the case of under 15-year-olds. The next clause says that you may not give, I presume as a gift, a shot-gun or ammunition to anyone under 15, and, even more remarkably, that they will be committing an offence liable to a fine of £50 if they accept it.
LORD STONHAM: Would not the noble Duke think it more convenient to deal with that clause when we come to it? We are dealing with Clause 69.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I want to join Clause 70 on to Clause 69. This is one of the relevant points, in my opinion. Clause 69(1) says:
"Subject to any exemption having effect by virtue of this section any person who has in his possession or purchases or acquires a shot-gun without holding a certificate authorising him to possess shot-guns shall be guilty of an offence."
Will a 15-year-old be expected to get a shot-gun certificate under this subsection, and, if he does, may he then be lent a shot-gun or buy a shot-gun for himself?

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The younger you start shooting, on the whole the safer you are and the better you are. I think it is a vital point, and it seems to me that if Clause 69 is ridiculous, Clause 70 is even madder.
LORD DERWENT: May I add a short word to what my noble and learned friend said about the Bill having no effect on reducing the chances of criminals in getting firearms. It has not been explained by noble Lords opposite why they should have any difficulty in getting a shot-gun certificate. Where they are known they will be refused, but where they are not known they will not be refused. No register is kept, and what is to stop them from going to quite a different part of the country where they are not known to the police? If the local police happen to find out, and they are most unlikely to, the criminals merely move on and try the next place. As the noble Lord told us, the grant of licences is going to be almost automatic, unless the police happen to know the persons are disqualified. That will not happen very often unless the people apply, like fools—and they are not fools—in their own locality. How is the Bill going to help prevent criminals from getting hold of shot-guns? It just does not make sense at all.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: Although I agree with what the noble and learned Viscount has said in a number of instances, I think he is wrong regarding the criminal using a sawn-off shot-gun. I think he will find—I have not the Firearms Act in front of me—that the sawn-off shot-gun becomes a firearm. I think what he read out was the definition of a gun. If you reduce the length so that in fact you make it a pistol shot-gun, I think it comes under the Firearms Act and a firearms certificate is then necessary.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: May I ask whether the Government have studied the system in use in certain countries on the Continent? I have shot in a few of them, Germany and Austria, and you must have a certificate there, but it appeared to be quite a simple procedure to obtain one. I was wondering whether the Government had studied the system in use in Continental countries to assist them in devising a system here.
LORD HAWKE: I hope Her Majesty's Government will take this Part out of the Bill, study it carefully and perhaps bring it in as an amendment to the Firearms Act, because one could spend hours pointing out the illogicalities, et cetera, that have got into these few clauses. For instance, it seems to me that noble Lords opposite are arguing that one of the deterrent effects of the Bill will be that if a robbery is committed with a firearm it will be an extra heinous offence if those concerned do not happen to have a certificate for it. That is a ridiculous argument. The only thing to do is to have it as a separate Bill.
LORD BOWLES: May I ask whether the noble Lord would agree with the Bill if it was in a separate form?
LORD HAWKE: Noble Lords may think it right to have in this country some sort of register of the people who own guns. That would be quite easy to obtain if there were a reversion to the gun licence and the names of licence-holders were sent in to a central depot.
LORD BOWLES: I am sorry; I think the noble Lord did not hear what I said. Would he and others who would desire to have this Part in another Bill agree to it, or would they still move the same Amendments and stand by those Amendments?
LORD HAWKE: We certainly should not agree to this extraordinary jumble of illogicalities. I suggest that it might be logical to have a register of the people in the country who own firearms.
5.2 p.m.
LORD SWANSEA: For the first time since this Bill came before either House Part V of the Bill is the subject of a proper debate, not in Committee but on the Floor of the House. My noble friend Lord Hawke said earlier this afternoon that he had not looked at Part V of this Bill until ten minutes previously. I dare say the same would apply to a great many of your Lordships. I submit that neither in another place nor here has this Part of the Bill received proper consideration. There were one or two brief mentions of it on Second Reading in another place, and one or two passing references on Second Reading in this House. That is not good enough. It is simply due to the fact that this Bill within a Bill has

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been wrapped up and heavily disguised in a Bill of much wider general application, as my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne said just now.
Naturally, the other provisions of the Bill have received much more attention, in particular from the lawyers. Goodness only knows! the lawyers are the people who want to look at these provisions, too, because to me they have every appearance of panic legislation. They are half-baked. Some of them, as we have discovered this afternoon, just do not make sense at all. I greatly hope that Her Majesty's Government will consider redrafting the whole of Part V, or else taking it out of the Bill altogether and bringing in an entirely new Bill to amend the present legislation.
Until to-day Part V has not received proper consideration at all. It has escaped everyone's attention. I have the gravest doubt whether it will add anything to the effectiveness of the present legislation against crime with relation to firearms, other than side-effects—one cannot call them anything more than that—which might affect petty crime such as poaching. I cannot see any serious professional crime of any sort being in the slightest degree affected by this Bill. Shot-guns are not handy weapons to carry about with you if you are going to commit serious premeditated crime. They are not easily concealed, and they are cumbersome to handle—though I admit that they are probably the deadliest weapon of any at close range. Sawn-off shot-guns are already taken care of, with pretty stiff penalties under the Firearms Acts. But I cannot see anyone contemplating serious crime, which must be carefully planned in advance, choosing to carry an ordinary full-length shot-gun rather than a sawn-off shot-gun or a pistol.
I believe it is a fact that offences committed with the use of shot-guns have increased in the last years; but then so have offences involving firearms as a whole. I think they have increased at a higher rate. One wonders about offences committed with shot-guns. Are they, in fact, premeditated professional crimes; or are they, as seems to be more likely, crimes committed on impulse, on the spur of the moment?
LORD STONHAM: It is just the same to a person who is shot or killed.
LORD SWANSEA: I entirely agree with the noble Lord. But the real object of this Bill, is it not, is to prevent serious crime—and by "serious crime" most of us understand large-scale crime carried out by professionals. There is always a chance that someone will pick up the family shot-gun and blast his wife's boy friend with it. But if the shot-gun were not available he would probably use a poker, or his best driver, or something like that. I think it is that class of crime in which ordinary shot-guns, unmodified, are more likely to be used, and it really is not possible to prevent that sort of thing happening; there is always some sort of weapon to hand.
Then there is the colossal administrative burden which this work will place on the police. They are overworked enough as it is. They are crying out for more recruits. I can foresee one chief constable after another throwing up his hands in horror at the amount of extra work which is going to be placed upon him and his men. Then there is the effect on the gun trade itself, in particular, on one firm. Your Lordships may not be aware that only one firm in this country manufactures double-barrelled shot-guns in quantity. There are a number of gunsmiths in London, Birmingham and elsewhere who turn out a high quality gun in small numbers for what we might term "the carriage trade". It is not their customers who will need to worry, but the people who buy the cheaper guns, who are less likely, because of lack of opportunity or past misdeeds, or one thing or another, to be granted a shot-gun certificate.
The particular firm I have in mind are Webley and Scott, who enjoy the highest repute in this country. They make other things as well, but they depend to a great extent on the production of shot-guns both for the home market and for the overseas market. Representations have been made to me by the managing director of this firm to the effect that if these provisions in the Bill are carried through it will be their death-blow. I am sure that nobody wants to see an old-established and highly reputable firm of any sort go out of business; but that is what might happen.
I cannot believe that Part V of the Bill will add anything to the effectiveness of the law in preventing serious

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crime. As the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has said, it will only be a nuisance value to the law-abiding citizen: it will not incommode the criminal in the slightest. He will still have his own channels for obtaining shot-guns, rifles, pistols, sawn-off guns, flick knives, and any other sort of deadly weapon; and no legislation on earth will prevent such people getting hold of weapons through their own channels. What is needed, and what has already been done to some extent in the last Firearms Act, is to stiffen up the penalties for illegal possession of firearms and in the use of firearms in crimes of violence. That is the direction which legislation ought to take, rather than the imposition of additional restrictions on law-abiding citizens. The professional criminal will snap his fingers at that law as he does at so many others.
I had not intended to press any of my Amendments to a Division. At one time I contemplated putting down an Amendment to leave out Clause 69. On consideration, I decided not to do that; but having heard other noble Lords speak this afternoon, I am very much inclined to change my mind again. The feeling I gather from other speakers is that this clause should not be allowed to stand part of the Bill as it is, even with such Amendments as we are able to make.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD SWANSEA: The clause is woolly in its drafting; it contains a number of points which are very obscure, and, as we have discovered this afternoon, it is open to misinterpretation. What we need is an entirely new and separate Bill which will receive full consideration on its own merits, rather than having these provisions disguised in a far larger Bill dealing with the law in general. I have no knowledge of other noble Lords' intentions when the Question is put. I have not consulted with any of them beforehand, but if the occasion arises I shall be quite prepared to vote in favour of the exclusion of this clause.
LORD COTTESLOE: When the Minister replies, can he tell us in what proportion of criminal offences shot-guns which are not sawn-off are involved? I believe it to be so small a proportion as to be negligible.
5.15 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I do not intend to follow the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, in the interesting theory of what an outraged husband should do if he finds his wife with her boy friend. It conjures up all sorts of possibilities. One of the possibilities that I should like to visualise is that there is not a gun within reach at the time in question. The noble Lord said that this Part of the Bill had been conceived in panic.
LORD HAWKE: May I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? It has been freely admitted that nobody will be refused a certificate; so that there will certainly be the gun there, unless the man belongs to the criminal classes.
LORD LEATHERLAND: But if the chief constable knew that there was an illicit association between the wife and the aforementioned boy friend, and that the man was of a hot and hasty temper, then the chief constable might well refuse permission, and rightly so.
LORD HAWKE: May I ask the noble Lord how many spies will be needed throughout the country to elicit these facts?
LORD LEATHERLAND: The noble Lord keeps jumping up like a sharpshooter. I hope he will give me a chance. The noble Lord suggested that this Part of the Bill had been conceived in panic. That is not so. For years past we have been hearing about the menace of the shot-gun. There have been stories in all the papers about crimes committed with the aid of shot-guns—sawn-off shot-guns, if you like. They were not purchased as sawn-off shot-guns but as shot-guns in their virgin state, and the sawing off was done behind closed doors in some criminal club.
LORD SWANSEA: In that case such weapons are already amply covered under existing firearms legislation.
LORD LEATHERLAND: Certainly they are, but you have to catch them first and a man cannot saw off the barrel of a shot-gun unless he has a shot-gun in the first place. I want to see shot-guns, as I am sure do the Government, kept out of the hands of such people. The noble Lord also said that the shot-gun was not too deadly a weapon.
LORD SWANSEA: I do not think I said that. In fact I think I said exactly the opposite.
LORD LEATHERLAND: If the noble Lord meant that it was not deadly, how is it that it kills people?
LORD SWANSEA: I think the noble Lord must have misheard me. I said that the shot-gun is probably a more devastating weapon at short range than any other weapon.
LORD LEATHERLAND: That is agreed; we make common cause on that point. There has been a good deal of "shooting" this afternoon, and my noble friends on the Front Bench seem to have been the target. I must confess that some of the shots, if not exactly bull's eyes haw been pretty good "inners". There could probably be some cause for complaint about the rather detailed and intricate nature of this part of the Bill, Part V. There has been a concerted attempt by one marksman after another to reduce the whole of Part V of the Bill to a state of absurdity. We have almost been told to expect two million people going along to the police station in column of route porting arms for inspection. It is not going to be quite so regimented as that. We shall go along for our gun permit or to be entered on the register just as innocently and without any more trouble than when we go along to the post office for a dog licence or a television licence. It may well be that television is a deadlier weapon than a shot-gun, but I am not here to argue that point this afternoon. There are probably some detailed restrictions in this Bill which are, perhaps, not quite rational and reasonable.
I remember the days when I had a shot-gun. My father sometimes used to come and stay with me. As an old soldier, he liked nothing better than to borrow my gun, walk round the fields and shoot anything shootable which came within range. But, of course, under the first clause in Part V of the Bill that would be an offence, because he would have had a shot-gun "in his possession", to use the words in the clause. But I do not think it is the desire of the Government here to interfere with people who use shot-guns innocently. I do not think for a moment that it is their desire to order a cease-fire on the grouse moors or
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anything like that. There are many innocent, entertaining and enjoyable uses to which shot-guns are put. But you cannot keep shot-guns out of the hands of the criminal classes unless you impose some kind of control at the first point, and I think that constitutes a justification for this Bill, although it might be possible to amend some of the detailed restrictions and regulations. Then there are gamekeepers, who must have guns. They use their guns in their spare time when not engaged in other pursuits, and we do not want to see any restrictions imposed there.
But let us be realistic about this matter. Shot-guns in the criminal world have to-day become far more deadly than revolvers. Perhaps more damage is done with them than by revolvers. They are certainly a far more deadly weapon when the barrel has been sawn off and they are used in the nature of a rather large pistol. At the present time anybody can get a shot-gun, and that is the raw material out of which these deadly weapons for use by the criminal classes are manufactured. There are a great many youngsters who own shot-guns today; irresponsible young fools who go out into the woods and fire them off recklessly. I have had quite a number before me in my court, not necessarily for poaching but for going out into the countryside, loading a gun and shooting at anything—or, very often, shooting at nothing. I remember a case where a courting couple were seriously wounded as a result of the recklessness of one of these young hooligans. I am not defending the courting couple: I suppose that is one of the occupational risks of courting.
But the primary factor here is that we must make war on the crook community. The crook community is using shot-guns. Therefore, there must be some control at the beginning, so that shot-guns do not flow towards the criminal classes. But I am not too happy about some of the detailed restrictions which are in this Part of the Bill. I want to keep this clause in the Bill, but I hope that some of the more tiresome details can be amended or removed by the time the next stage comes. But I certainly feel that the subject is so very important that we must keep this clause in the Bill at the moment.
5.24 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: Perhaps I may now reply to the debate. I would remind your Lordships that we started the discussion in Committee around 3 o'clock and we have now been two hours and twenty minutes on a single clause, except for the time taken up with two Statements. Therefore I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, can say that the matter has not now been adequately discussed. I am not going to try to score points; I am going to try to answer the debate. I merely wish to point out that we have had what I regard as a long discussion on this subject this afternoon.
I cannot accept that a subject which is embodied in the Bill and given a separate Part—Part V—with three or four clauses, is heavily disguised, as if we had brought it in in secret; nor can I accept that this Part of the Bill has not been discussed. The Standing Committee who considered this Bill in another place sat for 19 full sessions, one of them going on till 2 o'clock in the morning. They also considered the Bill in detail on Report, and some of the Amendments which I have to-day moved on behalf of the Government are the direct result of discussions in another place.
Would it be suggested that all wisdom on shot-guns resides only in the Upper House of Parliament? This matter has been very carefully considered. Indeed, I am bound to say that as I listened to the debate I felt that some noble Lords were like the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, who had looked at the Bill only ten minutes before he spoke about it. It seemed to me that some of the criticisms made were based on insufficient knowledge. May I deal with some of the criticisms and answer some of the questions, not necessarily in the order in which they were put?
The noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, raised points about the next clause but said that he wanted to relate them to the current clause, and I accept that. He was particularly concerned about children. The position of children under 15 is that, like anybody else, they must have a shot-gun certificate to be able to use one. Apart from that there is no difficulty at all. A child may be loaned a shot-gun but if he is under 15 he is not allowed to own
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one. We think that it is a wise precaution that a child should use a shot-gun only when he is under supervision, when he is being trained, and that he should not be able to own one so that he can do what he likes with it. I remember very clearly a tragedy which happened to a friend of my son when he was at prep. school. The father had said they could have the gun, but they were not under supervision and the boy tripped. The gun was loaded, and one of the boys was killed. It is fortunate for me that it was not my son. So I make no apology for these provisions in the Bill.
Moreover, I would point out to the noble Duke that the only difference between the provisions in this Bill with regard to children, and the provisions of which everyone approves with regard to the use of air-guns, is that in the case of air-guns the prohibitions apply to children up to the age of 14, whereas with shot-guns our proposals apply to children up to the age of 15. So I cannot see anything heinous or unwise in that. I hope that I have covered the noble Duke's point.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: May I say that I am absolutely with the noble Lord over this. But I had an idea that under some previous legislation children under a certain age needed to have supervision when they went out with shot-guns. I should thoroughly agree with that; but that is not what this Bill says.
LORD STONHAM: With respect, it is what the Bill says. The noble Lord, Lord Swansea, said that the drafting of this clause, and indeed of this Part of the Bill, was woolly. No doubt the noble Lord would know, and certainly we shall look again at the drafting. But I am sure the noble Duke will accept my interpretation of what the Bill says and does, and if, subsequently, we find that that is wrong we will look at it again.
The noble and learned Viscount asked me a number of questions and made one or two statements. I ventured to interrupt him rather hurriedly when he was talking about sawn-off shot-guns, and I was not then able to give him the correct reference. But under Section 24(4) of the 1937 Act it is an offence to have a sawn-off shot-gun without a firearm certificate

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—not a shot-gun certificate. A great deal of heavy weather has been made over this point, but the steps one has to take to obtain a firearm certificate are very rigorous indeed. We have always encouraged chief officers of police to take the most careful steps to ensure that these certificates and the firearms get into the hands only of people who can be trusted.
There are in existence some 300,000 firearm certificates, and so far as I am aware, no one has ever complained, or ever thought it wrong, that there should be this extremely rigorous procedure. No one—neither the Gun Traders' Association, nor the manufacturer for whom the noble and learned Viscount was so sorry, nor anyone else—has ever complained about those restrictions. Now we have a much less rigorous, very perfunctory procedure which is causing—
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Does the noble Lord really consider it is perfunctory that you have to produce a certificate every time you take your gun away from your gun-maker?
LORD STONHAM: I was referring to the obtaining of a licence. If the noble and learned Viscount will allow me, I have a lot of questions to answer. I shall try to answer them satisfactorily; and if at the end of the day—and this would seem to be the useful thing—there are things which seem to be unreasonable and unnecessary, or not essential to what we want to do, then they are the kind of things we should like to look at. But I hope the noble and learned Viscount accepts the point about the sawn-off shot-gun, because it cannot go unchallenged. I think his words were, "The customary weapon of the criminal is a sawn-off shot-gun".
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: To be accurate, if the noble Lord will forgive me, what I said was that a sawn-off shot-gun does not come within Part V.
LORD STONHAM: For a good reason; and a reason of security, and no other reason. The reason it does not come within this easy procedure is because it can be only under a very vigorous procedure. I would say it is most unlikely that anyone would get a firearms certificate under the 1937 Act at all for a sawn-off shot-gun.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Exactly.
LORD STONHAM: Did the noble Earl wish to say something?
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I said "exactly", because no respectable person ever wants or needs a sawn-off shot-gun.
LORD STONHAM: Of course. So we are in entire agreement; and I think I have answered the noble and learned Viscount's point as to why the sawn-off shot-gun is not mentioned here. It is for a reason of which everyone in your Lordships' Committee would approve.
The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, asked: "How will the Bill prevent a criminal getting a shot-gun? How will the chief constable or the policeman know? They will not know the people who apply". We do not pretend that these clauses are going to prevent criminals doing a criminal act, but we do think it will make it a little more difficult. On the question how they are going to know the people, I would remind the noble Lord that the applications for certificates have to be made to the chief constable of the area in which the applicant resides, so it is likely that the local police will know or have some knowledge of the person. Therefore, it will be very difficult for a peripatetic criminal just to get his certificate, because he will not be known in the area.
LORD DERWENT: I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord, but I did point out that there is no residential qualification as such. A man can move about from place to place, and wherever he is living he can apply.
LORD STONHAM: He can apply wherever he is living, and if he is living in the area then it is likely that something will be known about him. The noble Lord shakes his head. He has been Minister of State at the Home Office. He would not underestimate the powers and knowledge of the police, and what they know about people. If a criminal moves into an area, the police are certain to be aware of that fact. I think that is the answer to the noble Lord's point.
The purpose of Part V—and this is the main point—is to limit the present unrestricted sale of shot-guns. Of course a

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determined criminal can get one illegally, as he can get a pistol despite the 1937 Firearms Regulations, stringent though they are. Of course he can; and this Bill will not stop a determined criminal from getting a shot-gun. But it will make it that much more difficult. When crimes have been committed, it will assist the police in tracing the criminal, and I think it will increase the public awareness of this problem.
The noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, asked me about offences. I am glad to see that he has returned to the Chamber. The feeling that we must try to do something about this is the basic reason for introducing Part V into the Bill. The noble and learned Viscount is quite right: of course, if we had had opportunity and Parliamentary time it would have been right to have introduced a special Bill. It would have been better, perhaps, to have introduced a special Bill, but we had this opportunity and there was this need, and to do anything else would have meant a long delay in a matter of what we regard as public danger and increasing menace. Certainly we think we are right to ask your Lordships for the approval of our proposals now, rather than perhaps to have to wait a year or so.
May I give the figures? These are the figures for only England and Wales. I have not the separate figures for Scotland, just those for England and Wales. In 1961, the number of indictable offences involving firearms was 552. In 1961 the number of indictable offences involving shot-guns was 107.
LORD COTTESLOE: May I ask the noble Lord whether those are any shot-guns, or shot-guns which are not sawn off? It is very material.
LORD STONHAM: I am afraid I cannot draw distinction between shot-guns and sawn-off shot-guns so far as indictable offences are concerned, but as I think the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, will agree, so far as crimes are concerned they are frequently committed with shot-guns which are not sawn-off—and I mean crimes of violence, and not poaching. The figures stayed fairly steady for 1961, 1962 and 1963. In 1964, the shot-gun offences jumped from 107 to 215: that is to say, in four years they had doubled. In the next year, 1965, they jumped to
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318. By then they had trebled. In 1966 they had jumped to 404. So in five years—I should say six years, to be fair—the number of indictable offences involving shot-guns had almost quadrupled. I think those figures provided justification for one dealing with this matter as soon as we could.
Your Lordships are entitled to say, if you like, "In my opinion it is not going to do much good; it is not going to help very much". Your Lordships are entitled to your opinion if you feel that the burden on the police may be too great to justify the result. A great deal has been said about the police. If I could have the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, he said that chief constables are going to throw their arms in the air and say, "Oh! Look at the burden that has come on me". I assure him that the practice in the Home Office, whenever there is anything which affects the work of the police, is that the chief constables of police are taken into consultation at once. Their opinion counts for a very great deal; and, of course, we have considered them all the way. Therefore, I think I have established that there was a need to do something by way of legislation to make it more difficult for criminals to use shot-guns. If offences quadruple, that is something of which one must take notice. After consultation with the police—and indeed with the Shotgun Association and all other interested bodies—this provision as to certification is the beginning of our plans, and the one which we thought would best give us control.
I think that really that makes the case, but in order that there should be no misunderstanding I should like to repeat one or two things about the way we want to run this. As I indicated when moving the Amendment with regard to the issue of licences (which Amendment had the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent), in everything we do in these matters we shall consult interested parties in industry and among users, such as organised sport. For example, we have consulted the National Farmers' Union, who approve. They have one or two points of criticism, but the National Farmers' Union think this is necessary. I think your Lordships will agree that there is no class in the community which owns and uses shot-guns more than

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farmers. If, after consulting them, we have their broad approval for these steps, I think that would be strong evidence that the procedure is not such a nuisance, that it is not so unworkable, as we might have been led to believe from this debate.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry to interrupt. Does the noble Lord mean that the National Farmers' Union approve the Bill? Or does he mean that they approve the idea behind the Bill?
LORD STONHAM: They approve the principle. I am talking about Part V. We have not consulted the National Farmers' Union about the whole of the Criminal Justice Bill.
LORD DERWENT: Is it the drafting or is it the principle that they support?
LORD STONHAM: I could not commit the National Farmers' Union to an approval of our drafting. I am not asking the noble Lord to approve the drafting. I am talking about the principle of Clause 69. It is reasonable to refer to the National Fanners' Union, although their main concern in this matter is that the Government should do something about some form of third party insurance. That is about the only outstanding point so far as the National Farmers' Union are concerned.
On the question of the conditions, the point is that somebody will apply for and receive a shot-gun certificate in very much the same way as he receives a driving licence, except that he will not be required to take a test to see whether he can fire the gun.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: When you take a car to a garage for repair you do not have to produce a driving licence before you can take it away.
LORD STONHAM: But you have to have a certificate of insurance, and also a Road Fund licence on the windscreen. The certificate is like a driving licence, in that it enables the holder to use any shot-gun (either his own or somebody else's) without in any way committing an offence, provided that he is using it for a lawful purpose or, at any rate, not for an unlawful purpose. I think that covers the point raised by the noble and learned
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Viscount. So far as leaving your guns in a friend's house is concerned he does not have to have a certificate. Of course it would be necessary for him to say that they were not his guns, that he did not own them, but that his friend owned them. If his friend has a certificate then, of course, there has been no offence. One would not be committing an offence merely because one obliged a friend by storing something which one did not own. I think that point is covered. But if you apply for a certificate and are granted one—though you may not even have a gun—that certificate would permit you legally to own any number of guns or to fire any number of your own or anybody else's guns. That seems to me quite reasonable.
We shall ensure that the conditions are not onerous. We shall minimise the burden of work on the police. So far as this clause is concerned—and it is absolutely basic to our proposals—it may well be (I do not necessarily accept this; but it may well be) that the drafting should and could be improved. It may be that it should be modified in some respects, although I think that can be done by the regulations. I think that covers some of the points made, certainly we shall look at all of them. I think, in principle, it deserves your Lordships' support because it is an honest attempt, the best we can make, to deal with a real problem, and in that attempt I feel that we deserve the support of the Committee.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: May I put one question? Part of the trouble here is that in subsection (5) you have taken in so many of the provisions of the Firearms Act which appear to be rather unnecessary. I put to the noble Lord the provisions of the Firearms Act, Section 11(1). Under that section, if you go to collect your rifle from a gunmaker, then you must take your certificate with you. It seems to me to be wholly unnecessary to provide that that should happen in relation to collecting a gun from a gunmaker; but there it is in the Bill. If the noble Lord would say that he would go through these provisions very carefully between now and Report stage, that he would cut out all the surpluses which are now included, and would merely require that there shall be a certificate of ownership of the gun with the number registered with the local police force,

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then that would be a considerable improvement. But the noble Lord has not yet given any clear indication that the Government would do that.
LORD STONHAM: I am not sure that I agree with the noble and learned Viscount about Section 11 of the 1937 Act. If he is right, then of course I will do what he asks. I give him that assurance without restriction. But Section 11, as I understand it, restricts sales, transfers and repairs of firearms subject to the firearm certificate procedure—they are the important words—to firearms dealers and persons holding or entitled to exemption from the appropriate firearms certificate.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: We need not argue about that now. In my view, Section 11(1) of the Firearms Act means that your gun merchant cannot hand over your gun without first seeing your certificate.
LORD STONHAM: If the noble and learned Viscount is correct in that interpretation, then certainly I will see what I can do to meet that point, and indeed all the points made. But I must say flatly that some of the points that have been made in this debate were, I think, unjustified, could not be justified, and could not be supported. Therefore I am not giving an overall assurance that everybody's point can be met. I think your Lordships are able always to trust an assurance that I give. I will certainly do my best to meet any point that seems to me to be valid and which can be reasonably met.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I have listened to almost the whole of this debate and I think I shall carry all noble Lords with me when I say that we all want to give support to the Government in any practical effort to reduce crime. The trouble that many of us feel about this is that, because it has been brought in as a part of the Bill, legislating substantially by reference to the Firearms Act, there is a great deal here which, although very necessary in the case of firearms, is not really essential to achieving the Government's purpose in regard to shot-guns. This is what we sincerely trust the Government will look at most carefully between now and the Report stage.
Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 70:
Restrictions on gifts of shot guns
70.—(1) No person shall give any shot gun or ammunition for a shot gun to any person under the age of fifteen and no person under that age shall accept as a gift any shot gun or ammunition for a shot gun.
5.48 p.m.
LORD SWANSEA LORD SWANSEA moved, at the beginning of subsection (1), to insert:
"Without prejudice to the provisions of section 2 of the Air Guns and Shot Guns Act 1962".
noble Lord said: We come now to Clause 70, which deals with the conditions relating to young persons under the age of fifteen. I have tried to look at this in connection with the relevant part of the Air Guns and Shot Guns, etc., Act of 1962, and, quite frankly, I cannot see that they fit in with each other at all. The 1962 Act, by Section 2, permits a young person to have a shot-gun in his possession while under the supervision of an adult or when the gun is securely fastened in a cover. It does not prohibit him from possessing ammunition; but this Bill does seek to prohibit him from possessing ammunition. I do not quite see how any person, whether he is an adult or a young person, can shoot, with or without supervision, without ammunition in his gun. Many people—like, I dare say, a great many of your Lordships—learn to shoot at an early age. The best age to learn is in one's early teens. Having read this subsection I have the gravest doubts whether a young person under 15 is entitled to carry ammunition at all, or to have it in his possession.
A good many of us have shot-guns which we hold, as it were, in trust for our children, and our children use them under our supervision. If I take my son out shooting I hand him his gun (it is not really his gun, it is mine) and I give him a handful of cartridges to use in it. I may get those cartridges back, or I may not—because by their very nature cartridges are expendable things, and if my son shoots them all off, he cannot give them back to me. Have I committed an offence by giving them to him? Or can it be held that I have only lent them to him, although I know that I shall not see most of them back again?

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A strict reading of this subsection would give the impression that it prohibits any shooting by a young person. That is what this series of Amendments seeks to clarify. Amendment No. 96 would insert at the beginning of the subsection:
"Without prejudice to the provisions of section 2 of the Air Guns and Shot Guns Act 1962".
It would make quite clear that a young person under the age of 15 may have a shot-gun and ammunition in his possession while he is under supervision or while the gun is in a cover.
It might happen that I wanted my son to get some practice at a shooting school, and that he was going there on his own to take instruction and to use a gun which would be provided for him at the school. I might have some old cartridges left over from last season, or two or three seasons ago, which I wanted used up. If I gave those cartridges to my son to take with him to the shooting school, should I be committing an offence. Or there might be an occasion when a boy carried his father's cartridge bag at a shoot, something which is often done. It has the effect of taking the weight of the cartridge bag off father's shoulders and it enables the son, without himself shooting, to learn quite a lot about what goes on in a shooting field, and various points of etiquette and good behaviour.
The Firearms Act includes a provision which exempts servants or agents. I think it is Section 4(7) of the Firearms Act 1937 which states:
"A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belonging to another person holding a certificate may, without himself holding a certificate, have in his possession that firearm or ammunition under instructions from and for the use of the other person for sporting purposes only."
That is clearly intended to apply to loaders, stalkers, gillies and the like, who carry the rifle and cartridges for their employer. Would a young person under the age of 15 be covered by that provision? These are the questions which arise in my mind on looking at this subsection. It appears to contradict itself. It appears that if this subsection remains unamended a young person under 15 will be prohibited from carrying a shot-gun and ammunition in any circumstances. In moving the first of these Amendments I
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hope that this time, at any rate, the noble Lord, Lord Bowles will find himself in a position to accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 40, at the beginning insert the said words.—(Lord Swansea.)
5.57 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: May I make one suggestion now to the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, who is to deal with this Amendment? When I first read this clause I had difficulty with the word "give". There is now, I think, no doubt about what is intended: it is in terms of making an outright present of a shot-gun, or of the ammunition. The difficulty is that, to my surprise (I suppose there is some reason for it, because Parliamentary draftsmen always have a reason), the matter has been put the opposite way round from the manner in which it is expressed in two other closely related subsections.
Section 19(2) of the Firearms Act 1937 starts off:
"No person under the age of fourteen years shall accept as a gift … any firearm …"
Then it goes on to say:
"and no person shall give it…"
Section 1(1) of the Air Guns and Shot Guns, Etc., Act 1962 says:
"No person under the age of fourteen shall accept as a gift any air weapon or ammunition … and no person shall give any air weapon or ammunition …"
In this Bill the words used are:
"No person shall give … and no person … shall accept as a gift …"
If only the Government would stick to the well-tried formula, I think there would be no difficulty at all about the acceptance of the gift setting the pattern; and the subsidiary use of the word "give" later is quite clearly within the same general context. Here, however, it is put the other way round, and you start off with the word "give", which is an extremely ambiguous word, and it is not until later that it is qualified. If this whole matter is being looked at, could not the order of the wording be changed? The sense would be precisely the same, and it would give the great advantage of uniformity with the other two sections that I have mentioned.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: I suggest that as it stands this subsection creates a very dangerous position. As noble Lords have said, the important thing for somebody using a shot-gun is to use it safely. It is usual—certainly it was in my youth—that you start quite young and the first thing you are given is a gun. It may have a short stock, which may be lengthened as you grow older. The first thing you are taught is how to handle the gun. Having been taught that, you then fire it; and you fire it at some sort of target, perhaps the best being a clay pigeon released from a trap. You are watched and coached, and made safe. I always think of the final words of a lesson that used to be given by a headkeeper to a boy, after showing him all these things: "Always shoot like a gentleman"—that means to say, always show consideration for other people and be safe.
If a young man is given a gun when he is 20 or more, he knows nothing about safety. He may put cartridges into the gun and leave it in the house loaded, then pick it up and have an accident. This clause rather encourages that, because he is not expected to have a gun until he gets older and does not expect to be instructed. He does not know what it is all about and he does not care. This should be the other way round: that anyone who is going to use a shot-gun should be taught from an early age to be accurate, considerate of others and perfectly safe. Then he will become a good shot and useful to everyone.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I heartily support what has been said by the three noble Lords who have spoken already. I would add that it may not be realised by those who have never done any shooting that in properly regulated families the teaching of safety begins long before a boy ever handles a gun—so much so that in my own family we were never allowed, and I have never allowed any of my sons, even to point a stick at a person and call it a gun. We were never allowed to point our finger at a person and call it a gun. The beginning of the old poem, which noble Lords may remember,
"Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at any one.
All the pheasants ever bred
Won't make up for one man dead",
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is a thing we have been brought up to. The sooner a boy, or a girl for that matter, begins, the better it is for him from the point of view of learning to be safe. Naturally everything must depend not only on the physical strength of the child but also on his general sense of responsibility. I hope that the Government will look carefully at what my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross said, because, reading this as plain English, it would certainly seem that a child could not only not receive a gun but not even be allowed to use a gun if lent one, if the word "give" is interpreted in an ordinary plain English way. You can lend a gun, but you cannot lend cartridges. Those cartridges are going to be used and all you get back are the empty cartridge cases. Therefore I hope the Government will take care to remedy what I do not think is their intention.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I would support everything that has been said so far about this clause, and make one further point. I think it is unfair that we should bring in penalties for children under the age of 15 for accepting anything as a gift, no matter what it is. Suppose your aged grandfather came to you when you were 13 and said, "Dear boy, here is my first gun, with which I shot my first cock pheasant at the age of 12. Please accept it as a present. I no longer have any further use for it". It is not only a very remarkable child who knows his law; it is an extremely precocious and, I think in most families it would be thought, an excessively smug child who would turn to his grandfather and say, "Dear grandfather, much as I should like to accept this gift, I am afraid that Section 70 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 will not permit me to do so".
For goodness' sake!, if we do nothing else, let us take this second subsection out of Clause 70. Let us also reduce the fine, if we are going to keep that in, to one not exceeding 5s. No child under the age of 15 can afford more than 5s. in a fine for accepting a present. I think the Government have gone absolutely mad on this clause. I cannot see how it is going to stop any criminals. I do not believe that criminals under the age of 15 use shot-guns. I am prepared to believe that criminals in their later 'teens and early twenties may use shot-guns, but

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I do not think that the practice is prevalent under the age of 15. Is this really necessary? The way to tackle this problem is the way it was treated in the 1962 Act, whereby people must have supervision. That is far more effective and probably the right way of getting to the root of this problem. I should have thought it better to raise the age to 15. I believe at the moment is is 14 and that probably there is a good case for making it 15. I would ask the noble Lord opposite to have hard second thoughts about this clause.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Arising out of what the noble Duke has said, may I ask the noble Lord what happens if the child in question under the age of 15 is not given the gun by his grandfather but is left it by his grandfather, who died rather sooner than expected, when the boy was 12? What is the position with regard to that gun?
LORD BOWLES: I will look into the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. Perhaps before I finish my speech I shall know the answer. It is already an offence to accept an air-gun under the age of 14. I think the trouble here arises from a misunderstanding of the word "gift". The noble Viscount knows that in giving things one must hand it over so that the person making the gift is permanently deprived of the use thereof.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: That is the definition of theft.
LORD BOWLES: It is the same thing. The real point is the distinction between giving a boy a cartridge and handing it to him. I find it difficult to see why the order of the two halves of Clause 71 makes any difference, but I promise the noble Viscount that I will look into it, without giving any definite commitment. As to the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, I have had a communication. The executor must hold the shot-gun in trust until the child becomes 15.
Perhaps I may say a few words about the Amendments. Their effect would be to exclude shot-gun ammunition from the prohibition on making gifts to children under age 15 and upon such children receiving gifts of shot-guns or shot-gun ammunition. Similar Amend
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ments were moved when the Bill was being considered in Committee in the Commons on March 15, when it was argued that as the clause stood it might have, or might appear to ordinary members of the public to have, the effect of prohibiting children under 15 firing shot-guns even when using someone else's shot-gun under adult supervision, because they would have to be given the ammunition which they would fire. It was claimed also that shot-gun ammunition without a gun to fire it from was normally not dangerous.
Clause 70 is not part of the proposed shot-gun certificate system. Its purpose is to tighten certain other provisions which already apply to children and young persons in regard to shot-guns by fixing a minimum age of 15 below which presents of shot-guns and ammunition to children are totally prohibited. An almost identical provision already exists in regard to air weapons and ammunition under Section 1(1) of the Air Guns and Shot Guns etc., Act, 1962, save that the minimum age in that case is 14 years. The clause is concerned with safety as well as crime, but the Amendment, if accepted, would make it legal for a child of any age to be given shot-gun ammunition to play with, which did not require a firearm certificate. This would go much wider than merely authorising its use in a shot-gun under responsible supervision. Such things are quite unsuitable for and potentially very dangerous to children playing with them. In the absence of any difficulties in practice so far, it seems quite clear that the bias must be on the side of safeguarding children. Modern shot-gun ammunition can be very powerful, and not all shot-guns are necessarily proved to withstand some of the more powerful types of cartridges that can be fired from them. The prudent shooter uses cartridges which he knows are right for his gun, but if a young lad arrives to receive instruction with another person's gun but bringing his own ammunition with him there is a danger that an accident may follow. Although the chances of an accident are probably low, any injury that was caused could well be severe; and once again it seems right to put the bias on the side of safety.
The other argument (that is, that to hand ammunition to a child so that he

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can fire it, even under supervision, necessarily amounts to a legal gift within the mischief of the clause) is in our view misconceived. Handing over an object does not of itself constitute a gift, and the fact that it is handed over with the intention that something shall be done to it by the other party (in this case to discharge the contents) does not make the transaction a gift either. One does not make a gift of a firework by inviting someone to light it. A gift involves making over full legal ownership of a thing so that the recipient is entitled to do what he likes with it. This manifestly does not happen when a child has the ammunition "while under the supervision" of an adult. If a cartridge is given to a child to fire, and it is not fired, it should remain the property of the adult, and he should take it back. There is therefore no need to make the provision suggested, assuming the purpose is to permit children to fire live ammunition under supervision.
The same provision, mutatis mutandis, has applied since 1962 without causing difficulty to the use of air weapons and ammunition for air weapons under Section 1 of the Air Guns and Shot Guns etc., Act 1962, and there is no reason to expect difficulties to arise under the Bill. If different wording is used in regard to air weapons and shot-guns (and any difference will be accentuated when all firearms control legislation is consolidated, probably next Session), this can only lead to the conclusion that different results are intended in the two cases, and this is certainly not so. But, as I promised the noble Viscount a few minutes ago, I will certainly look at the wording again. I feel satisfied, and so do my advisers; nevertheless, we do take notice of what noble Lords say in debate and I give that undertaking.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Before the noble Lord sits down, may I make this point? He has explained this matter fully, and I do not want to take up time unnecessarily, but in order to see whether we are really dealing with something of substance I think it would be of the greatest help if before the next stage we could have information—perhaps the noble Lord will communicate with one of my noble friends on this
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side who is interested in the point—as to how many prosecutions there have been of children accepting gifts of ammunition or firearms, either under the 1937 Act or the 1962 Act. If there have been large numbers of them, then this is obviously a matter which we must take seriously. But I should not be surprised to find that there have been none. Secondly, how many prosecutions have there been under those two Acts of people giving firearms or ammunition to children under the age of 14 or 15? Thirdly, the noble Lord read out what was plainly a well-considered meaning of the definition of the word "give". Is this, derived from some legal authority; and if so,—I do not want to know now—could he let me know what it is?
LORD BOWLES: As the noble Viscount has asked me that, I will communicate with him.
LORD SWANSEA: If I were a lawyer, which I am rather thankful I am not, I should take great delight in arguing further this point about the gift of ammunition. It seems to me that if I hand a cartridge to my son and he fires it off, ownership has passed from me to him. I feel that the drafting of this clause could be improved, and I hope that the noble Lord will have another look at it before the next stage of the Bill to see whether this is so. I accept that the intention of the clause is obviously to govern the ownership of shot-guns and ammunition by young persons. But it is the courts that will have to interpret this Bill when it becomes an Act, and I think we ought to see that it is as little open to misinterpretation as possible. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 70 agreed to.
Clause 71:
Amendment of enactments relating to firearms 1937 c. 12
71.—
(3) Rules under section 30 of the said Act of 1937 (general power to make rules)—
amay require any application for a firearm certificate or shot gun certificate to be accompanied by a photograph of the applicant;
6.15 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
"(2) In section 8(1) of the said Act of 1937 (registration of firearms dealers), in paragraph (a) of the proviso, for the words from 'or subsection (5)' to 'the said subsection (5)' there shall be substituted the words 'or by order of a court in Northern Ireland made under section 8(5) of the Firearms Act 1920'.
(3) In section 12(3) of the said Act of 1937 (power of constables and others to call for and inspect register of firearms transactions kept by a dealer), paragraph (c) and the words 'in each case' shall be omitted."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 141, in Schedule 6, which is consequential. Both of these Amendments are paving Amendments designed to assist the consolidation of the various statutory firearms provisions which it is proposed to undertake next Session. Firearms legislation is contained at the moment in the Firearms Acts 1937 and 1965, the Air Guns and Shot Guns, etc., Act 1962, and Section 35 of and Schedule 3 to the Local Government Act 1966. The Amendments proposed will be brought into force on the same day as, and will be repealed by, the consolidation Act. We are preparing in these Amendments for that consolidation, which I think will be welcome. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 15, at end insert the said subsections.—(Lord Stonham.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: In view of the fact that this is all going to be looked at again, I should like to say that, regardless of whether or not it facilitates consolidation in due course, we accept the Amendments, as we have accepted the rest of these clauses, subject to further thoughts upon the matter in due course.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, after subsection (2), to insert:
"(3) In section 19 of the said Act of 1937 (provisions to prevent minors from having firearms)—

(a) for the words in subsection (1) from 'to any other person' to the end; and

(b) for the words in subsection (2) from 'to any other person' to the end; and

(c) for the words in subsection (3) 'to any other person whom he knows or has reason
880
able ground for believing to be under the age of fourteen years',

there shall be substituted in each case the words 'to any person under that age'; and at the end of the section there shall be added the following subsection:—
'(4A) In any proceedings for an offence—

(a) under subsection (1) of this section committed by selling or letting on hire a firearm or ammunition to a person under the age of seventeen years; or

(b) under subsection (2) committed by giving or lending a firearm or ammunition to a person under the age of fourteen years; or

(c) under subsection (3) committed by parting with the possession of a firearm or ammunition to a person under the age of fourteen years,

being in any of those cases an offence committed after the coming into force of section 71(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 1967, it shall be a defence to prove that the person charged with the offence believed the other person to be of or over the age of seventeen years or, as the case may be, fourteen years and had reasonable ground for the belief.'"
The noble Lord said: I have never been more pleased to reach my sanctuary than on this occasion, particularly as these are purely drafting changes, again designed to facilitate consolidation of the various statutory firearm provisions next Session. With regard to the point made by the noble Viscount on the previous Amendment, I do not think consideration of what we have been discussing previously has an effect on this. These are Amendments which will assist the consolidation next Session, and they will bring the drafting of Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1937 into line with that of Section 3 of the Air Guns and Shot Guns, etc., Act 1962 and subsection (4) of Clause 70 of this Bill. To that extent it impinges on what we are now discussing. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 22, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Stonham.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Lord underestimates what we are going to think about. I have no doubt that we should like to think about the age of 14 and the age of 15, because I can see no reason why, once we bring this whole matter into a Bill, we should not consider whether we should not have a little uniformity in these matters.
LORD STONHAM: I was merely seeking to make the point that these Amendments foreshadow consolidation, and if,

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11(1). Under that section, if you go therefore, the noble and learned Viscount was thinking of consolidation—as, for example, of the age of children—then we should have to alter this Bill and not the Air Guns and Shot Guns Act, because that would not be consolidation.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: What I am saying is that as we are in the process, in Clause 71, of amending the 1937 Act there is no reason why we should stick to the noble Lord's Amendments. If we are going to consider this matter with a view to consolidation, let us get the thing right before we consolidate.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.20 p.m.
LORD SWANSEA LORD SWANSEA moved, in subsection (3), to leave out paragraph (a). The noble Lord said: I will be very brief. This Amendment concerns the power of the Secretary of State to
"require any application for a firearm certificate or shot gun certificate to be accompanied by a photograph of the applicant."
This is the thin edge of the wedge. We have not so far been obliged to have our photographs on anything except passports, or a military identity card during the war. I cannot really think that this is necessary or even workable. Take the case of people living in remote rural areas—Dartmoor, Mid-Wales or the Highlands and Islands—who may have to travel miles, often by boat, to the nearest town, where there may not be any facilities to have a photograph taken. They are required to go through this rigmarole—and rigmarole it is.
It is no use saying that the administration of shot-gun certificates will be simple and perfunctory. What is the use of saying that, if we have to have our photographs taken and when under sub-paragraph (b) we may have to have that photograph certified by a responsible person to the effect that it is a true likeness? Is this a perfunctory procedure? I cannot see why we should not have a system similar to that applying to driving licences, which have a place for the holder's signature, so that the holder can I be required at any time to produce a specimen of his signature to prove that he is the person whom the driving licence says he is. Again, the travel-cheque system, requiring two signatures, has been in operation for many years, and so far
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as I know it works very well indeed. I cannot see the necessity for this requirement for a photograph. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 25, leave out paragraph (a).—(Lord Swansea.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think this may be a simplification, if it is to be done for firearms as it is to be done for shot-guns. I think the rules will be made for shot-guns under the same provision of Section 30 of the 1937 Act, but it may be we need not have the same arrangements for both.
LORD BOWLES: I think it is Section 30 of the 1937 Act which is going to be used and imported into this Bill, so it will, I think, be exactly the same procedure.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: That is just what I am saying. I am saying that it need not be. Will the noble Lord consider whether we have to have photographs in all cases, if at all?
LORD BOWLES: The noble Lord, Lord Swansea, talked about the difficulty for some people having photographs taken if they live at Dartmoor. A photographer would not be very far away. This idea that you cannot get a simple passport photograph taken seems to be quite wrong. I can understand some people not wanting photographs of themselves, but that certainly does not apply to the noble Lord, Lord Swansea.
The effect of these Amendments would be to delete the power in the Secretary of State to make rules requiring applicants for firearm and shot-gun certificates to provide photographs of themselves, certified as likenesses of the applicants. The intention of the subsection as drafted is to enable the Secretary of State by rule to require applicants for either firearm or shot-gun certificates to provide photographs of themselves, and for their photographs and information supplied on their application forms to be verified by a person of acceptable standing. The requirements are likely to be the same as those which have to be met when a person applies for a passport and which give rise to little difficulty in practice and cannot be claimed to be a real invasion of personal liberties. No decisions have yet been taken as to the content of any

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rules that might be made, and we shall be ready to receive any suggestions in due course.
If rules in the sense of the subsection are made, a photograph of the holder will be affixed to each certificate. This should enable speedy and easy identification by a police officer requiring a person to show his authority for having a shot-gun or Part I firearm, and by a dealer who will be under a statutory obligation to examine a person's shot-gun certificate before selling him a weapon. It is possible that the Amendment may reflect a fear that the rules would require a vendor not only to inspect a certificate, but also to compare with the purchaser the photograph on it. (The noble Lord did not say that, but he may have had it in mind.) This would cause real difficulties in some cases where shot-guns are sold by reputable dealers by post. There is no such intention. The photograph with the certificate is for production to the police. To achieve that end an amendment to Section 11 of the Firearms Act, 1937, would be required, and this could not be done by rule. It is, however, a serious offence, punishable with three years' imprisonment, to sell a Part I firearm to a person who is not a firearms dealer unless the purchaser's certificate is produced or he shows that he is exempt from the certificate procedure.
Shot-gun certificates, like firearm certificates, will ordinarily be valid for three years, and it may be claimed that it would be burdensome and unnecessary to require fresh photographs at such frequent intervals. This is one of the points on which representation would be considered when the rules are being drafted. We should be prepared to accept that fresh photographs every three years is probably unnecessary, and have in mind something on the lines of photographs on first application and at every third renewal thereafter, unless there has been a change in a person's appearance—someone may have grown a beard or a moustache. Thus, there would be a nine-year gap between photographs in the ordinary case. This again would be in line with the requirements for passport photographs, where the period is ten years. I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
LORD SWANSEA: Of course, the brief which the noble Lord has read out was
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written before his noble friend's Amendment, concerning the period of validity of the shot-gun certificate, was accepted by your Lordships; and, of course, a shot-gun certificate may now run for any period from one to five years. So the particular point about having a fresh photograph every nine years or so is not now strictly accurate. However, I would not quarrel with the desirability of a photograph on a firearms certificate. What I had misgivings about was the possibility of having photographs on a shot-gun certificate. It will make complete nonsense of the claim that the procedure under this Bill would be simple and perfunctory, and I cannot really see that it would achieve anything. However, I do not wish to take up any more time of the Committee, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 104. This, again, is a drafting Amendment, to facilitate the consolidation of various provisions of the Firearms Act 1937, which created a number of offences, and provisions of Section 7 of, and Schedule 2 to, the Firearms Act 1965, which set out the maximum penalties which now apply. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 38, at end insert—
("(6) In section 7 of the Firearms Act 1965 (increase of penalties for offences under Act of 1937) after the words 'offence under' there shall be inserted the words 'or punishable under'.")—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD SWANSEA: My I draw the noble Lord's attention to a misprint in the second line of his Amendment, where there is a reference to the Act of 1957, which I am sure should be 1937?
LORD STONHAM: It is "1937" on the Marshalled List.
LORD SWANSEA: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. Perhaps his copy of the Marshalled List is a little more recent than mine. Mine certainly says "1957".
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think the noble Lord has got the wrong drafting mistake. It should be "the Act of 1937" not "Act of 1937".
LORD STONHAM: I am grateful to the noble Viscount for drawing my attention to this. It should be "the Act of 1937".
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 71, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I just want to repeat something that I said earlier, because I think that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, was not here then. The whole question of rules, including such things as photographs for shot-gun certificates, is the sort of paraphernalia which may or may not be necessary, and we should be grateful if the noble Lord would consider that among the various encumbrances in the machinery which he promised to look at again. We shall certainly be doing so.
LORD STONHAM: I agree that this will have to be looked at very carefully, particularly the question of rules. We do not want anything in our rules which is not absolutely essential. Certainly we do not want anything in them which is stupid or imposes an undue or unnecessary burden. The only thing I have in mind is that the time between now and the next stage of the Bill is somewhat limited. I have already resolved to work hard at this, in the hope that we shall be ready in time, and I shall be grateful for any constructive suggestions which the noble Viscount, or indeed any other noble Lord, is able to offer in this matter.
Clause 71, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 72 to 74 agreed to.
Clause 75:
Drunkenness in a public place
75.—(1) Any person who in any public place is guilty, while drunk, of disorderly behaviour may be arrested without warrant by any person and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50.
6.34 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved to add to subsection (1):
"and to be ordered or to be placed under a condition of a probation order requiring him to reside for any specified period in accommodation provided or approved by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section."
The noble Lord said: This feels like moving into an entirely new Bill. We are now dealing with persons who are
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drunk and disorderly, and of all those offenders for whom prison is unsuitable these people convicted of being drunk and disorderly are, I suppose, at the top of the list; and of all the prisoners on short sentences that the prison service would be glad to be rid of, these also come top of the list. I think the number of people sentenced to prison for this offence in any one year comes to something like one-seventh of the whole prison population. Therefore, for that reason at any rate, this clause is to be welcomed—to be welcomed, that is, so far as it goes. Here, at least in prospect—but only in prospect—is a new additional form of custodial treatment: the only one, I think, in the Bill. But I doubt whether it really goes far enough, and for the life of me I cannot see why it cannot be amended so as to do so.
Let us look at what this clause, as it stands, does. It takes away—or will take away when brought into force—the power of the courts to impose short prison sentences for this offence of being drunk and disorderly in a public place. So far, so good. It leaves the courts with a power to impose a fine. But in a single year in the past 4,000 people have been sent to prison for this offence in default of payment of the fine, and a further 1,000 have been sent to prison with no option of a fine. These figures were given by Miss Alice Bacon in the debate in the Committee stage in another place. What is to be done about these people for whom a fine is not suitable? Will higher fines have the desired effect? In a few cases they will, but in the great majority of cases I rather doubt it. We gather from subsection (5) of this clause that hostels for the treatment of this group of offenders will be provided. I think this is the moment to ask the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, where these hostels are how the provision of them is coming along, and, more particularly, where is the power in the Bill under which courts can get these offenders to attend at, or to reside in, these hostels, when there are any of them available? I will return to that point in a minute.
Several times in this Bill we have recognised that hostel accommodation is wanted. Everywhere we look it is wanted: more probation hostels for young offenders; more new hostels for

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adult offenders; hostels for homeless discharged prisoners, recommended by Lady Reading's Working Party; hostels for disorderly drunks; hostels for disorderly alcoholics (and I think these may be different); hostels for drug addicts, about which we shall be talking in a few weeks' time. What sort of provision is being made for all these establishments? The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said in our Second Reading debate that four hostels were being provided. I am not quite sure what he was referring to—probably hostels for adults on probation—
LORD STONHAM: That was the provision.
LORD SANDFORD: In that case we should like to know when these will be ready, and perhaps the noble Lord can tell us rather more about the plans for providing penal hostels, and how they are developing.
To return to my second point, assuming that some hostels are provided, how can the courts make use of them under this clause? Unless the offender is under 14 years of age (and he is really not very likely to be drunk and disorderly under that age; at least, one would hope not), the courts cannot compel attendance or residence by means of a probation order. The noble Lord will undoubtedly tell us, as in fact is the case, that a Working Party has been set up to go into this and that we must not give the courts power under this Bill to compel disorderly drunks and alcoholics to attend at or to reside anywhere until that Working Party has reported. This, at any rate, was the gist of the reply given by his right honourable friend in another place, when this clause was being discussed in Committee.
But do we have to be so circumspect and so hesitant in retaining these powers for our courts? No new erosion of the liberty of the subject is involved here. Courts already have power to incarcerate these offenders for six months. Surely they could be left with powers to compel attendance at, or residence in, these hostels when they are provided. If in due course the Working Party, which I understand has been set up and of which we should like to hear more in a moment, reports that compulsion applied to this
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group of offenders is not usually helpful in their treatment and in their rehabilitation, that is something which the courts can take into account when they give a sentence.
I can quite see that the use of these powers must be held in abeyance until accommodation is available, and that is provided for in subsection (5) of this clause and in Clause 89, which governs the days on which the various Parts of this Bill come into force. But so far as I can see, without my Amendment or something else better than my Amendment but like it—and here I think I have the support of the Magistrates' Association—the courts will be powerless to enforce the very sensible intentions that are set out in this clause and that lie behind it. They will be powerless to take advantage of what is provided for here, without further legislation. It is no part of my business as a Whip on this side of the House to help Her Majesty's Government arrange their legislative programme, but when a Bill is before the Committee we all want to see it made as good, as complete and as effective as we can devise. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 4, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Sandford.)
LORD ROYLE: In a very few words, I want to support the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, in this Amendment. I hope that from these Benches it will be no embarrassment to my noble friend that I should seek so to do. I do not like once more in the course of these debates to make reference to magisterial experience, but what I want to say very largely arises from it. The man who has been the biggest headache to magistrates throughout the country for many years has been this man, the drunk and disorderly. Invariably—or very often at least—he is the type of individual who we find has no fixed address and no money. In the past magistrates have been compelled to adopt the only possible method with him: they have got rid of him by sentencing him to 7 or 14 days' imprisonment. He has been a complete nuisance to the community and a complete nuisance to the courts.
I know this has all changed and there is no question of his being sent to prison. but the first subsection of this clause does

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nothing at all except increase the penalty. For the life of me, thinking in terms of the people I have in mind, I cannot imagine that an increase of penalty from what is to-day up to £50 will make the slightest difference to them. Therefore, all my sympathies are with the noble Lord's Amendment on this matter. This would give the courts a real opportunity of doing something about the habitual drunkard who is in the habit of coming before them so often. I agree with the noble Lord that in these cases it is not the slightest use making it voluntary; it must be compulsory. If this type of individual were asked if he would like to go into a pleasant home for six months he would think it a very good idea, but at the end of four or five days he would be completely fed up with it and walk out. It must be compulsory.
I appreciate that the difficulty is that the accommodation, the homes that are suggested in the noble Lord's Amendment, are not there. I know that the Government have in view doing something about it. But it may be a long time before we have this type of legislation again, and I would remind my noble friend that when the Criminal Justice Act 1948 was passed provision was made for all manner of things, like detention centres, remand centres and so on; they were not there, but provision for them was put in the Act. I like to see things in the Act ready for when the accommodation is available. The suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, could be put into operation when the institutions or hostels were available. I have the feeling that this is a very useful Amendment indeed, and it would assist the courts considerably if it were in the Act at this time waiting for the availability of the hostels, or whatever the homes might be called. I hope that my noble friend can see his way, if not to accept the Amendment at this time, to consult with his right honourable friend to see whether it is possible to change their minds about it and insert something like the noble Lord's Amendment in the Bill at the Report stage. I am sure it is a worthy objective, and I hope the Government will show some sympathy for what the noble Lord is trying to do.
6.47 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I find it impossible to imagine any set of circumstances in which my noble friend Lord Royle or
890
the noble Lord Lord Sandford, could embarrass me, the reason for that being that we all three have the same objective and we all, I think, know what we are talking about. Therefore, embarrassment in such circumstances is just not possible. Of course, there can be disagreement, although I hope by the time I have finished speaking there will not be even any disagreement.
Broadly speaking, Lord Sandford—and Lord Royle supports him—wants to give the courts power to make a probation order which is accommapied by an order for a drunken offender, usually an alcoholic, to stay in a certain place; he is going to be compelled to stay there. Of course, it way well be—certainly not before Report stage, because I cannot anticipate what the recommendations of the Working Party are going to be in a year or so's time—something analogous to this Amendment may be recommended. I am doubtful about that, because compulsion of drunks—although it may be all right for the magistrates; it may give the magistrate a better feeling than sending him to prison for 7 or 14 days—is no good at all for the alcoholics, in the sense that it is useless. That is all our experience. Compulsion has been tried before, for years. We have had the Habitual Drunkards Act 1879, the Inebriates Act 1888 and 1898. They are still on the Statute Book. They are not used for the sole reason that they are absolutely useless.
Of course, the levels of our psychiatric knowledge were not as great in 1888 as they are to-day, but the plain fact of the matter is that you sent inebriates or habitual drunkards to an institution and kept them there behind bars, and all of them when they came out, as soon as they had the means of doing so, went and got blind drunk. And this is what happens to-day when they go to prison. The whole case for this clause, in which I fervently believe and towards which I have worked for many years, rests on the certain knowledge that sending drunks to prison is the biggest single waste of our penal system that we have to-day. It is quite useless from the point of view of the drunken person; it does not do him any good. It is useless for society, because we still have with us the habitual drunks, and also because they are useless we keep them expensively in prison. So we have decided to bring that folly to an

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end, at a time when my right honourable friend is satisfied that sufficient alternative treatment places are available.
The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, asked me briefly—I hope he will forgive me if I answer his questions at some length, because this is a vitally important subject, and one in which I know there is keen interest—about the Working Party. It has started its meetings. Among its membership are some of the leading medical experts, consultants on drug and alcoholic addiction; and it is an interdepartmental committee, including experts, lay and medical, from my Department and from the Ministry of Health. I believe that we shall have a most important and worthwhile Report from them.
The noble Lord, Lord Sandford asked where is the power in the Bill to compel the people to live in the hostels? There is no power, because no power on earth is going to stop an alcoholic being an alcoholic. He needs continuous support. It is no good thinking you can lock these people up. That was tried nearly 100 years ago, and it did not work. Has the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, any idea of the years taken in the making of an alcoholic? I have just had some figures given to me which come from the Institute of Psychiatry. They are the results of research into the cases of 50 alcoholics. These are the milestones, the average ages in their careers. At the average age of 18 years they were drinking regularly. At 23 they were drinking most days. At 25 they were drinking heavily, and at 29 drink was a problem. At the age of 29, on an average, they were first arrested for drunkenness. At the age of 33½ they first went to prison for drunkenness. At the age of 38 they were on "Skid-Row". At the age of 41½ they had their first hospital admission.
The significant and striking thing about those figures is that hospitalisation did not follow until 12 years after the first arrest. This is a long row that these unfortunate people hoe. It means a long time and a great deal of support and thought and care before you can be sure—and you cannot always be sure—of helping them. Two years ago my Department decided to try to do something about this matter of the drunks who go to Wandsworth and Pentonville,
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which are the two prisons in London which receive them all. At Pentonville one in six of all admissions are of people sentenced for drunkenness, or being drunk and disorderly.
We decided on the experiment of sending some of the most suitable to Springhill open prison not far from Grendon Psychiatric Prison. We have now some little experience. Our experiment started in October, 1965, and those we sent there excluded drunks who had recent records of serious offences, men receiving continuous medical treatment and men serving only a few days who cannot economically be sent to Springhill. But apart from those exceptions Springhill has been able to absorb all the drunks who have been thought suitable for its régime. This has amounted, so far, to 1,364 receptions. Those 1,364 receptions up to the end of 1966 covered 835 different men: 199 had been there more than once, and one man I think seven or eight times.
What emerged from the study of these people conducted by the medical and psychiatric staff at Grendon Psychiatric Prison has shown that few of them can be treated medically. You just cannot do anything with them medically. It is no good talking in terms of that kind of cure. Our experience, therefore, over nearly two years, confirms the provisional hypothesis that we in Home Office formed, that these drunks can easily be contained in non-secure surroundings, and that most of them must be expected to relapse time after time—and this is the important thing—unless they are given close support in a sheltered environment. We are convinced that the long-term solution must be found outside the prison system, by the provision of a form of support and environment—precisely what we are doing with the hostel system.
The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, asked me to say what the position was with regard to the provision of hostels. I am giving the position as it is now. At the moment, 11 hostels for alcoholics are in operation, with a total of 192 places. Of those 11 hostels, only three are in receipt of Home Office maintenance grants, and of those three one only in respect of some beds. Two more hostels have been acquired for alcoholics, but are not yet open. These will add another 23 beds. Four more are under consideration.

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If your Lordships recollect the figures that I mentioned of the numbers at Springhill, which can be taken to serve most of the people of this type in the London area, you may come to the conclusion—at least I should—that we need at least 1,000 places in Southern England for these people. The noble Baroness, Lady Reading, who is chairman of the Working Party which for over two years has been considering the voluntary contribution to after-care, and has already submitted two Reports, has, as we know, made the guess of 1,000 places being needed. Whether that is right or wrong, I do not know; it may well be that more will be needed. But in any case that is the target that we have presently in mind.
To provide those places we are setting up a housing association. The administrative cost of the association will be met by the Home Office, and some initial contribution at least will be made of a capital grant. It is the intention that the housing association shall assist voluntary bodies in the purchase of suitable premises, and that most of the capital cost will be met by loans from local authorities or building societies; but for suitable establishments Home Office maintenance grants will be paid.
There have been some delays in the formation of the housing association which I very much regret, but the chairman, Lady Janner, has been appointed, and I hope that they will be starting very soon. They already have quite a number of places in the pipeline. Perhaps that was a bit of unintended humour, for so far as alcoholics are concerned they do not normally take it through the pipe, but will take it in any kind of circumstances. I will try to get away from the jargon. It is the case that a number of plans exist in different parts of the country for the provision of hostels, and I hope that we shall move with reasonable speed as soon as this organisation is set up. Certainly it is my own hope that within two years the number of places we seek will be available.
It is difficult for anybody intimately connected with the courts—certainly for for my noble friend Lord Royle, who is a magistrate of such great experience; and indeed for any magistrate—to believe that one must eschew compulsion and rely on willingness. So far as alcoholics are concerned we must do this, because no alcoholic can be helped unless he is
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willing to be helped. Our experience at Springhill, where they receive good fresh air, advice, where they get good food and are given work to do, is that they come out and in the main they start again. But I was tremendously heartened by a visit I paid a few months ago to an alcoholics' hostel at Rathcoole House where the warden is a seconded probation officer. And he is, I am glad to say, a member of the Working Party. He has great experience in these matters, and knows all the problems. This hostel was started by the special committee which was formed by my noble friend Lady Reading. It was a tremendous experience to go there and sit among these men, and to take their evening meal with them.
I said to one man sitting opposite me, a man of about 40, "How long have you been here?"—"Four months". "Where did you come from?"—"The bombed site at the Elephant and Castle". "What were you drinking?"—"Everything: methylated spirits; shaving lotion: everything". Another question, asked of a big man sitting at the table, was: "How long is it since you worked?" And he answered, "Eight years". To another man, who had been there six months (he sat at the head of the table, and was their natural leader), I said: "How often have you relapsed in the six months?"—"Once". These men make their own rules to a large extent. One man, who was found by the warden, had plenty of money on him. The man was in a good job, but was already drinking shaving lotion. He was brought hack. The man on my left was a man of about 60, and I asked him, "How long since you have worked?" He replied, "I don't remember. This is the first time I have ever come out of prison and not got drunk the same day". "How long do you think you will need support?"—"How do we know? It has never been tried before".
I cannot convey the tremendously heartening impression gained from talking to these men in a normal, intelligent, on the-level way, with no question of covering up or of "telling the old story" or anything of that kind. This was something new. At the time I saw them this had been going for six months, and these hopeless "Skid-row" types, an offence to society and a burden to themselves, had been working all the time. I have no doubt whatever that this is the only way.

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I asked the warden, "What do you do when they slip up?" His reply was: "Well, you go and find them and bring them back, or they come to you from the hospital." The hostel has an arrangement with a hospital near at hand. This is another link-up that we so badly need. When these people have been "dried out", it is not right to take them straight to the hostel because it upsets the other men; and at Rathcoole House they have made their own rule that this sort of thing should not happen. When you see these things you are convinced that the only way that these habitual drunkards who are social misfits can benefit is from a voluntary regime. They will fall down, they will come back and cry all over the carpet. But they can be made men again, and this is the only way that it can be done.
I do not know if I have answered all the noble Lord's questions. I come back to his Amendment. We shall see what the Working Party says. A century ago we tried compulsion in respect of inebriates, and we abandoned it fifty years ago because it was found to be useless. If it was found that compulsion would help, we could use that legislation or a modified form of it. Having seen what I have seen, and relying on the medical evidence that I possess, I do not think compulsion is any good. I believe with absolute certainty that with the kind of regime which we have now started; with the right kind of men and women, properly trained and sufficiently dedicated to administer these places; with understanding from the courts, and with the devotion and help of the voluntary bodies, as well as the assistance of the Home Office, these people can be rescued. Within a comparatively few years we shall know not only that prison is not the way, but that it can be dispensed with and that these people can be helped to be decent citizens who are no longer a burden on society.
7.8 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: I am sure the Committee will agree that we have had a useful and helpful debate; and we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, for giving us the benefit of all this information. I will not now pursue all the further matters which he raised, because I do not think that would be appropriate. It is quite clear from what he said that
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we need many more hostels to deal with this particular class of offender, and with many other offenders and discharged prisoners who are homeless. I am afraid it is also clear from the figures given by the noble Lord that the existing provision is hopelessly inadequate and must be greatly speeded up before we can say that this form of custodial treatment, on which I personally pin so much hope, really even exists within our system. At the moment all we can say is that we have a few pilot projects.
In dealing with this class of offender we are dealing with two groups: the alcoholic, about whom the noble Lord has spoken at some length and in relation to whom we have had the recent experiments at Springhill, as well as the much longer and greater experiments at places like Spellthorne St. Mary, which has been looking after alcoholics for eighty years or so, and among the ranks of Alcoholics Anonymous. I agree that all that experience points to the fact that compulsion does not contribute very much to their treatment, and compulsion without any therapeutic support does not achieve anything at all. But within this group we also have drunks—not alcoholics; there is quite a clear distinction between these—and I have yet to be persuaded that for this category of offender compulsion combined with treatment is not going to be extremely helpful.
So we are really left with this summary: that all earlier experience has shown—and here I entirely agree with the noble Lord—that compulsion and incarceration without any form of treatment is absolutely useless in every case, and the sooner we can stop it the better. But I would go on to say that, although it is useful in many cases—and in most cases when dealing with alcoholics—it has yet to be proved that treatment without compulsion is effective in every case. The object of my Amendment was to ensure that, in cases where we needed a combination of treatment and compulsion, magistrates had power to sentence accordingly. I do not think I have persuaded the noble Lord that this is so, but we have had a useful debate. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 75 agreed to.
Clauses 76 to 78 agreed to.
Clause 79 [Probation and after-care areas and committees]:
7.12 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: With this Amendment I should like to discuss Amendment No. 107, which is associated. Both of these Amendments are drafting. Subsection (2) of Clause 79 was intended to empower the Secretary of State in appropriate cases to appoint additional members of probation and after-care committees and probation case committees. This course was advocated by the Advisory Council to ensure the presence on these bodies of persons with experience of after-care who are not justices. As it now stands, the subsection will achieve this purpose in single probation areas. where the probation and after-care committee is also the case committee, but it will not do so in combined areas where each petty sessional division in the area has a separate case committee consisting of a prescribed number of justices appointed by the justices for that division. The first Amendment is intended to remedy that difficulty, and the second Amendment is consequential upon it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 12, after ("1948") insert ("and each case committee so constituted, which is not such a committee as aforesaid")—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 28, leave out ("any such committee") and insert ("a probation and aftercare committee for an area comprising more than the petty sessions area").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 79, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 80 agreed to.
Clause 81 [New provision as to appeal against sentence passed at assizes or quarter sessions]:
LORD STONHAM: This is a drafting Amendment which merges paragraphs (a) and (b) of Clause 81(3). The clause deals generally with rights of appeal to the Criminal Division of the Court of Appeal against sentences passed by a court of assize or by quarter sessions (otherwise than on appeal from a magis
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trates' court) for an offence for which the offender was not convicted on indictment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, leave out lines 21 to 26 and insert—
("(a) where, either for that offence alone or for that offence and other offences for which sentence is passed in the same proceeding, he is sentenced to imprisonment for a term of six months or more; or").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment omits the closing words of subsection (3)(d)(iii) of Clause 81 and removes an inconsistency between that sub-paragraph and Clause 31(4). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 35, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 37.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment deletes the reference to Section 19 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1907 from paragraph (5)(a) of Clause 81. That paragraph provides that certain provisions of the Criminal Appeal Act 1907 (being provisions as to procedure and other incidental matters arising on an appeal) shall apply with the necessary modifications to appeals under the clause. Section 19 of the Criminal Appeal Act, as your Lordships are aware, enables the Secretary of State to refer a case of a person convicted on indictment to the Criminal Division of the Court of Appeal, or, if he desires the assistance of the Court, to refer any point arising in a case to them for their opinion. It does not deal with procedure and incidental matters arising on an appeal, and the reference to it was included in error in the clause. It is just as well if we acknowledge our errors. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 41. leave out ("17 and 19") and insert ("and 17").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment should be read in conjunction with Amendment 43 and the revised definition of "sentence" in paragraph 6 of Schedule 4. It makes minor changes in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (7) of Clause 81, which relate to the power of the Court of Appeal to deal with an offender on appeal against sentence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 63, line 24, leave out from ("sentence") to ("when") in line 28 and insert ("or order which is the subject of the appeal; and
(b) in place of it pass such sentence or make such order as it thinks appropriate for the case and as the court below had power to pass or make")—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 81, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 82 [Amendment of enactments relating to criminal appeals]:
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment to subsection (2) of Clause 82 is consequential upon Clause 81, which was inserted in the Bill in Committee in another place. This subsection makes it a duty of the Director of Public Prosecutions to defend an appeal when required to do so by the Court of Appeal or (in the case of an appeal to the House of Lords from the Divisional Court) by the Divisional Court. The Amendment adds the duty of defending an appeal under Clause 81, which provides new rights of appeal against sentences passed at assizes and quarter sessions. I think this is a necessary and useful provision. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 19, at end insert ("or section 81 of this Act")—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: We all appreciate the care with which the noble Lord is explaining each of these Amendments to us, but at this stage of the Bill, when he comes to an Amendment which is purely of a drafting character or is purely consequential, I think noble Lords on both sides of the Committee would be entirely content if he just mentioned the one word, either "drafting" or "consequential", in which case we would probably accept it. If we found that it was more than that, we should say so.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 82, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 83 to 87 agreed to.
Clause 88 [Extension of powers of Northern Ireland Parliament]:
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for his great kindness, which I
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very much appreciate. I beg to move Amendment No. 113. I cannot claim that this is purely drafting. It contains a number of provisions which extend to Northern Ireland. Some of these provisions could only be made in legislation passed by Parliament at Westminster, but others could equally well have been made in legislation of the Parliament of Northern Ireland, as they relate to subjects within the powers of that Parliament. This Amendment allows the Parliament of Northern Ireland to amend or repeal provisions in the Bill which that Parliament could have made itself. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
"( ) for the purposes of section 6 of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 this Act shall, so far as it relates to matters within the powers of the Parliament of Northern Ireland, be deemed to be an Act passed before the appointed day within the meaning of that section."—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 88, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 89 [Short title, extent and commencement]:
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendments Nos. 114A, 114B, 114C, 115, 116, 117, 118 and 119. These are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 67, line 5, after ("(7)") insert ("(Enforcement in Scotland of fines imposed at assizes or quarter sessions)").
Page 67, line 6, at end insert—
("( ) Part III (except sections 52, 54, 55 and 56) and Schedule 2;")
Page 67, leave out lines 11 and 12 and insert ("Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954, the Geneva Conventions Act 1957, the Criminal Justice Act 1961 and the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963; and")
Page 67, line 15, leave out ("aforesaid") and insert ("provided by this subsection and except so far as it relates to the interpretation or commencement of the said provisions")
Page 67, leave out line 20 and insert—
("(b) sections 29(8), (Extension of enactments relating to persons sentenced to imprisonment or detention to young offenders sentenced to detention), and (Power of magistrates to issue warrants for arrest of escaped prisoners and mental patients).")
Page 67, line 25, leave out ("and section") and insert ("the Administration of Justice Act 1960, as it extends to Northern Ireland, and section 7 and")
Page 67, line 33, leave out ("aforesaid") and insert ("provided by this subsection and

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except, so far as it relates to the interpretation or commencement of the said provisions")
Page 67, line 35, at beginning insert ("Subsection (1) of section (Extension of enactments relating to persons sentenced to imprisonment or detention to young offenders sentenced to detention) and").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 89, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Application of the Maintenance Orders Act 1958 to Attachment of Earnings Orders under Section 37]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If it is convenient to the Committee, may I take Amendments Nos. 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126 and 127 together? Amendment No. 74 and the subsequent and consequential group of Amendments were to alter the arrangements made in the Bill for the collection of contributions ordered by a court to be made by a legally-aided person towards the costs of legal aid. These Amendments, Nos. 120 to 127, are all consequential upon the Amendment No. 74, which the Committee accepted. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 68, line 4, after ("37") insert ("or 63")
Page 68, line 8, after ("37") insert ("or 63")
Page 68, line 12, leave out ("(4) and") and insert ("(3) to")
Page 68, line 14, after ("37") insert ("or 63")
Page 68, line 26, leave out from ("said") to end of line and insert ("amount")
Page 68, line 32, after ("37") insert ("or 63")
Page 68, line 39, after ("37") insert ("or 63")
Page 68, line 41, after ("37") insert ("or 63").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Increase of Fines]:
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment makes it clear that the increase of the maximum fine for contravention of regulations concerning disabled and old persons' homes also applies to regulations concerning residential homes for mentally disordered persons. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 47, column 1, after ("40(3)") insert ("(both as originally enacted and as
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applied by section 19 of the Mental Health Act 1959 or section 19 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960)").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Miscellaneous Amendments of Enactments relating to Criminal Appeal]:
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 130. This Amendment adds new sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) to paragraph 5 of Schedule 4. Sub-paragraph (a) makes minor amendments to Section 9(b) of the Criminal Appeal Act 1907, which concerns the power of the Criminal Division of the Court of Appeal to order witnesses to attend and be examined before the Court. It substitutes "in the proceedings from which the appeal lies", for the words "at the trial", where they first occur and, "in those proceedings", for "at the trial" the second time that phrase occurs, since the words "at the trial" are inappropriate to the proceedings from which appeals lie under Clause 81. The new sub-paragraph (b) similarly substitutes in Section 9(c) of the Act of 1907, which relates to the power of the court to receive the evidence of certain witnesses, the words, "in the proceedings from which the appeal lies" for the words "at the trial". I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 106, line 29, after ("court") insert—
("(a) for the words at the trial' where first occurring in paragraph (b) of the section there shall be substituted the words 'in the proceedings from which the appeal lies', and for those words where occurring for the second time in that paragraph there shall be substituted the words 'in those proceedings';
(b) for the words 'at the trial' in paragraph (c) of the section there shall be substituted the words 'in the proceedings from which the appeal lies'; and
(c)")—(Lord Stonham.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This and a number of other Amendments on the Order Paper in the name of the noble Lord, which carry out certain improvements and modifications of the Criminal Appeal Act 1907, simply tempt me to ask this question. We have heard about Consolidation Acts. Never have I seen such a mess as has been made of the 1907 Act in this Bill and in the Criminal Appeal Act of last year, which was also

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effective on this particular point. Are we soon going to have consolidation of this as well? Because I think it is high time we did.
LORD STONHAM: I cannot be drawn on that one. I will make inquiries and inform the noble Viscount, if I am in a position to inform him.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment adds new paragraphs 6 and 7 to Schedule 4. Paragraph 6 amends Section 11 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1907. That section provides that an appellant, notwithstanding that he is in custody, shall be entitled to be present if he so desires at the hearing of his appeal except where the appeal is on some ground involving a question of law alone. In the latter case, and in proceedings preliminary or incidental to the appeal, he has a right to be present only if Rules of Court provide that he shall have a right to be present or the Court gives him leave.
Regarding the noble Viscount's point on the last Amendment, information has come sooner than I thought. The consolidation of criminal appeal is in hand, and we hope to do it next Session. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 106, line 31, at end insert—
(".In section 11(1) (right of appellant to be present at hearing), the words 'rules of court provide that he shall have the right to be present, or where' shall be omitted.
.In section 15 (duties of registrar with respect to appeals), the following subsection shall be substituted for subsections (3) and (4):—
'(3) Rules of court may enable an appellant to obtain from the registrar any documents or things, including copies or reproductions of documents, required for his appeal and may authorise the registrar to make charges for them in accordance with scales and rates fixed from time to time by the Treasury.'")—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment, to paragraph 27 of Schedule 4, is a paving Amendment which introduces Amendment 132. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 21, leave out ("subsection") where first occurring and insert ("subsections").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 132. Its effect is to add a new subsection (1B) to Section 3 of the Criminal Amendment (Insanity) Act 1964. This is a technical Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
"(1B) An order of the criminal division of the Court of Appeal allowing an appeal in accordance with section 2 of this Act shall operate as a direction to the court before which the appellant came for trial to amend the record to conform with the order'".—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: This Amendment adds a new paragraph 30 to Schedule 4 and makes minor Amendments to Schedule 5 to the Criminal Appeal Act 1966.
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 44, at end insert—
(".In section 5 (duty to admit evidence on appeal) for the words 'at the trial' where they occur in paragraph (a) of the section there shall be substituted the words 'in the proceedings from which the appeal lies'; and for those words where they occur in paragraph (b) of the section there shall be substituted the words 'in those proceedings'").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Minor and Consequential Amendments]:
7.31 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 134.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 14, at end insert—
(" THE VAGRANCY ACT 1824 (c. 83)
1. In section 5 (committal of incorrigible rogues to quarter sessions) for the words from 'to the house of correction' onwards there shall be substituted the words 'to quarter sessions, either in custody or on bail'.").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 134A.
Amendment moved—
Page 114, line 8, leave out from first ("the") to ("twenty-eight ") and insert ("words from 'subsections', where it first occurs to 'thirty' there shall be substituted the word 'section'").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 135.
Amendment moved—
Page 114, line 10, at end insert—
("8. In section 28 (committal for borstal sentence), in subsection (1) after the word 'custody' there shall be inserted the words 'or on bail' and in subsection (4) after the word 'committed' where it first occurs, there shall he inserted the words 'in custody'.
9. In section 29 (committal for sentence for indictable offence tried summarily) after the word 'custody' there shall be inserted the words 'or on bail'.").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: Amendments Nos. 136A, 136B, 137 and 138 have all been dealt with on earlier Amendments. I hope that I may put them to the Committee together. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 114, line 14, at end insert—
("9. In section 72A(2) (court of summary jurisdiction in Scotland to be specified in a transfer of fine order) for the words 'twenty pounds or more' there shall be substituted the words 'more than fifty pounds or is a fine originally imposed by a court of assize or quarter sessions'.
10. In section 72A(3) (termination of functions of convicting court) for the words 'convicting court' there shall be substituted the words 'court which made the order'.
11. In section 72B (powers of magistrates' court under transfer of fine order from Scotland) there shall be added the following subsection—
'(3) Where a transfer of fine order under section 44 of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954 provides for the enforcement in a petty sessions area in England and Wales of a fine originally imposed by a court of assize or quarter sessions, a magistrates' court acting for that area shall have all the like functions under this Part of this Act, exercisable subject to the like restrictions, as if it were the magistrates' court by which payment of the fine fell to he enforced by virtue of section 38(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 and as if any order made under the said Act of 1954 in respect of the fine before the making of the transfer of fine order had been made by that court.'").
Page 114, line 32, at end insert—
("THE SUMMARY JURISDICTION (SCOTLAND) ACT 1954 (c. 48)
12. Section 44 (transfer of fine orders within and from Scotland) shall be amended as follows, that is to say—

(a) in subsection (2) for the words 'fine was imposed' there shall be substituted the words 'order is made';

(b) in subsection (3) for the words 'imposing the fine' there shall be substituted the words 'which made the order'; and

(c) at the end there shall be added the following subsection:—

'(5) Where a transfer of fine order under section 72A of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 or this section provides for the enforcement by a sheriff court in Scotland of a fine imposed by a court of assize or quarter sessions, the proviso to the last foregoing subsection shall not apply, but the term of imprisonment which may be imposed under this Act shall be the term fixed in pursuance of section 38 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 by that court of assize or quarter sessions or a term which bears the same proportion to the term so fixed as the amount of the fine remaining due bears to the amount of the fine imposed by that court, notwithstanding that the term exceeds the period applicable to the case under section 49(1) of this Act.'").
Page 115, line 13, leave out ("In") and insert ("For")
Page 115, line 15, leave out from ("etc.") to end of line 17 and insert ("there shall he substituted the following subsection—
'(2) The following are the enactments extended by this section, that is to say:—

(a) section 45 of the Prison Act 1952;

(b) sections 19 and 33 of the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952;

(c) sections 20, 21, 22 and 23 of the Prison Act (Northern Ireland), 1953, and Schedules 1, 2 and 3 to that Act;

(d) section 13 of and Schedule 1 to this Act;

(e) sections 11, 12 and 14 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963 and Schedule 1 to that Act; and

(f) sections 49 to 52 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967'.").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to insert after paragraph 14:
"The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963 (c. 39)
15. In section 12(1) (supervision of persons released from young offenders institutions), after the word 'more' there shall be inserted the words 'but less than eighteen months'."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is necessary to avoid overlap between the supervision provisions in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, 1963, and the release on licence provisions of this Bill. I think on this occasion the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, might like me to say a few words of explanation. Section 12(1) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963 provides for the supervision for a period of twelve months from the date of his release of any person detained in a young offenders' institution for a period of six months or more. Under Clause 49(2) and (5) of the Bill such a person, where he is serving a sentence of eighteen

907
months or more, will be subject to licence for any period between the date of his release and the date of the expiration of his sentence. Accordingly it is no longer necessary to retain Section 12(1) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, 1963, for young offenders in Scotland other than those whose term of detention has been six months or more but less than eighteen months as provided in this Amendment.
The effect of the change from the Act of 1963 to the new provision will on occasion mean that supervision is for a longer period. Thus a young offender serving a three years' sentence who is released on licence after one year may remain on supervision for two years—that is, until the date of the expiration of his sentence. On occasion the period may be shorter. For example, a young offender serving a two years' sentence who earns, but loses, some remission and is released after serving twenty months can remain subject to supervision for only four months. The advantages of adopting the licensing provisions in Scotland generally, however, are considered to outweigh any apparent disadvantage of this sort. I realise that on first hearing it may perhaps not be altogether clear to the noble Viscount, but I feel sure that he will agree that it is a necessary change and is certainly one which is wanted by the Secretary of State for Scotland.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS:I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I will study his explanation with interest. There is rather more to it than I thought.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 5, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 6 [Enactments Repealed]:
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 139, and—
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I do not know what the noble Lord will think, but so far as I am concerned I should be entirely content if all the Amendments to Schedule 6 were put together.
LORD STONHAM: I should be most grateful. They are all consequential on matters we have already considered. I am grateful to the noble Lord for pointing it out. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 139 to 152.
Amendments moved—
Page 115, line 36, at end insert—

("5 Geo. 4. 83.

The Vagrancy Act 1824.

In section 10, the words from "the house" to "general or", and the word "further".")

Page 115, line 39, at end insert—

("3 & 4 Wil.4. c. 99.

The Fines Act 1833.

Sections 34 to 40. section 47.")

Page 116, line 8, at end insert—

("12 & 13 Vict.c.45.

The Quarter Sessions Act 1849.

Section 17.")

Page 116, line 12, column 3, leave out ("38") and insert ("39").
Page 116, line 16, at end insert—

("45 & 46 Vict.c.50.

The Municipal Corporations Act 1882.

sections 222.")

Page 116, line 29, column 3, at end insert ("In section 11(1), the words 'rules of court provide that he shall have the right to be present, or where '.").
Page 116, line 36, leave out ("subsections (3) and") and insert ("subsection").
Page 116, line 44, at end insert—

("4 & 5 Geo. 5. c. 58.

The Criminal Justice Administration Act 1914.

Section 27."

Leave out lines 48 and 49.
Page 116, line 57, column 3, at end insert ("Section 6.").
Page 116, line 58, at end insert—

("1 Edw. 8 & 1 Geo. 6. c. 12.

The Firearms Act 1937.

In section 12(3), paragraph (c) and the words 'in each case'.")

Page 117, line 19, column 3, at end insert ("In section 37, in subsection (1), paragraphs (a) and (c) and in paragraph (b) the words 'the High Court or' and in subsection (6) the word (c)'").
Page 117,line 46, leave out from ("eighteen") to ("and") in line 50.
Page 118, line 5, column 3, at end insert—
("In section 52(2) the words from 'and a draft' to 'Act', in the second place where it occurs").
Page 118, line 6, column 3, at end insert ("In section 15(2), proviso (a).").
Page 118, line 42, at end insert—

("3 & 4 Eliz. 2. c. 18.

The Army Act 1955.

Section 99(2).

3 & 4 Eliz. 2. c. 19.

The Air Force Act 1955.

Section 99(2).")

Page 119, column 3, leave out lines 12 and 13.
Page 119, column 3, leave out lines 35 to 39 and insert ("Section 2.")
Page 120, line 3, at end insert—

("4 & 5 Geo. 5. c. 58.

The Criminal Justice Administration Act 1914.

Section 27.")

Page 120, line 15, at end insert—

("15 & 16 Geo. 6 and 1 Eliz. 2.

The Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952.

Section 20(2) to (6). Section 21.")

Leave out lines 18 and 19.
Page 120, line 19, at end insert—

("1963 c. 39.

The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963.

In Schedule 5, the amendment of section 32(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1961

In Schedule 6, the reference to section 20(2) to (6) of the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952.")

Page 120, line 21, at end insert—

("1965 c. 71.

The Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Act 1965.

Section 2.")

Page 120, line 24, at end insert—

("4 & 5 Geo. 5. c. 58.

The Criminal Justice Administration Act 1914.

Section 27.")

Leave out lines 33 and 34.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.
In the Title:
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 153 to alter the Long Title, and to speak to consequential Amendment No. 154. Before I move this Amendment I should like to express to noble Lords in all parts of the House
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my appreciation of their great help and co-operation, and in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor for his extremely kind thoughts for myself. Our discussions have been useful and amicable. This is something I very much appreciate.
Amendment moved—
Line 7, leave out first ("and").—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: We are all greatly obliged for what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said. Although we disagree with some of the things in the Bill, I think we should all like to join in congratulating him on his skilful piloting of it. There will be a great deal of work to be done on the Report stage. It may be possible to think out some of the controversial problems between now and then. I venture to think that this House has done some very valuable work on this extremely important Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 154.
Amendment moved—
Line 8, at end insert ("and the arrest of offenders unlawfully at large").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with Amendments.
House adjourned at nineteen minutes before eight o'clock.