Sitting of 8 June 1967

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRIGHTON MARINA BILL (By Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday next.
MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (BUXTON, STOCKPORT AND YORK) BILL
  MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (GREATER LONDON PARKS AND OPEN SPACES) BILL
    MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (WEST HERTFORDSHIRE MAIN DRAINAGE DISTRICT) BILL
    Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Passenger, Parcel and Mail Services (Lampeter Area)
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he intends to take to implement the recommendation in the Clayton Report that passenger, parcel and mail services in the Lampeter area of Cardiganshire should be integrated.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mrs. Eirene White): The working group of the Passenger Transport Coordinating Committee for Wales is studying this at present and is seeking to devise a scheme which will be discussed with the interested parties in the area.
    Mr. Morgan: When is this working group expected to report? Second, are similar research groups to be set up for other parts of Cardiganshire and for Mid-Wales?
    Mrs. White: I understand that the report will take another month or two at least, as various interests have to be consulted. The question of other studies as suggested by my hon. Friend would be a matter for the Passenger Transport Co-ordinating Committee to decide.

    Water Resources
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will request the Welsh Economic Council to report upon the water resources of Wales.
    Mrs. White: This is a matter on which my right hon. Friend looks for advice primarily to the Welsh Committee of the Water Resources Board. My right hon. Friend would, of course, also be glad to consider any views which the Welsh Economic Council may express to him.
    Mr. Morgan: In view of the deep divisions of opinion on the subject of water resources in Wales and the fact that the establishment of a Welsh Water Board is declared Labour Party policy, does not my hon. Friend agree that a study of Welsh water resources, with a view to establishing a Welsh Water Board, should be proceeded with forthwith?
    Mrs. White: That is another question, as my hon. Friend well knows. The river authorities for Wales are themselves conducting surveys at the moment, and in due course the results will be presented to my right hon. Friend. He will then take the advice of the Welsh Advisory Water Committee and, if necessary, of the Economic Council as well.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: In considering the much vexed question of water conservation in Wales, will the hon. Lady not overlook the importance of underground storage and, in this connection, will she and her right hon. Friend, perhaps, take advice from speleologists with some knowledge on this subject?
    Mrs. White: I have no doubt that the Welsh Advisory Water Committee has at its disposal all the scientific advice that it requires.

    Derelict Land Unit
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the progress made by the Derelict Land Unit established to advise local authorities in Wales on the reclamation of derelict land.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes): The Derelict Land Unit of the Welsh Office has had discussions with 45 local authorities and has inspected 86 derelict sites covering about 2,200 acres. Detailed schemes for 17 of these sites covering 815 acres are being prepared with the advice of the unit. The Unit is also helping with outline proposals for the treatment of other sites.
    Mr. Jones: How many other schemes have been submitted, in particular by the Rhondda Borough Council?
    Mr. Hughes: Fifteen schemes, estimated to cost £550,000, are under consideration, and four of these covering 61 acres, and to cost nearly £300,000, were submitted by the Rhondda Borough Council.

    Local Government Reorganisation (Staff Transfers)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if a decision has now been reached on the appointment of a staff commission to ensure a smooth implementation of any staff transfers necessary as a result of local government reorganisation.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I must ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the White Paper on reorganisation, which will include a reference to this subject.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but will he appreciate the anxiety likely to be caused among staff in local government, especially if the reorganisation proposals are a long-drawn-out affair?
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: We appreciate the anxieties, and all representations made to us are being borne in mind. As my hon. Friend knows, he will not have to wait long for the White Paper.

    Prince of Wales (Investiture)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the expenditure that will be
    1262
    incurred from public funds on the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernarvon.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I cannot give this estimate before an outline programme has been prepared and agreed.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Surely the Minister does not embark upon expenditure of this kind without getting an estimate? Is it really necessary at this time of severe restraint to embark upon this ridiculous little mini-Coronation? Does not the Minister think that it is quite inappropriate to have it in a castle built by Welsh slave labour under the orders of the intruder and the conqueror?
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: My hon. Friend will be aware that I am not embarking on anything and that Welsh people, from Anglesey to Monmouthshire, warmly welcomed the announcement when it was made. The Welsh Tourist Board is certain that the Investiture will bring substantial material benefits to Wales.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: How long must we put up with this lunatic fringe of the Socialist Party?

    Houses, Abertillery (Landslips)
    Mr. Clifford Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is aware of the potential danger to residents of houses living at Bourneville Road, Abertillery, by the gradual movement of the mountain slipping in the near vicinity; and if he will take action to deal with this matter.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ifor Davies): Yes, Sir. At my suggestion the Abertillery Urban District Council has engaged consultants to advise it. The appropriate action will then be considered by the Council and by my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Williams: I am grateful for that information. If some action proves necessary can the Government give a grant for any costs that will be incurred?
    Mr. Davies: This is not a derelict land situation and the provisions of the Industrial Development Act therefore do not apply. Any assistance would need to be in the form of an ex-gratia payment and my right hon. Friend will consider this matter when he has a report of the cost of any further necessary works.

    A469 Road (Newbridge-Crumlin)
    Mr. Clifford Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he can announce the completion date of the new roadway now being constructed on the A469 between Newbridge and Crumlin in the Abertillery constituency.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: Monmouthshire County Council is the highway authority for this road. I understand from it that good progress has been made and it is hoped that work will be completed before the scheduled contract date of August, 1968.
    Mr. Williams: I thank my hon. Friend.

    EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

      Roman Catholic Primary School (Andover Area)
      Mr. David Mitchellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is aware that the Hampshire school building programme for 1968–69 does not include a Roman Catholic junior and infants school for the Andover area, even though it had Class 1 priority; and whether he will reconsider his decision in this matter.
      The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Shirley Williams): A new denominational school can be included in a building programme only if it would provide places for children who would otherwise be out of school. The proposal for the new Roman Catholic primary school in Andover did not fall within that category. We shall, however, consider this project again in the submission for the 1969–70 school building programme.
      Mr. Mitchell: Is the Minister aware that her Answer will cause some concern to those who value the right of parental choice and see a great value in religious education? Nevertheless, there is considerable gratitude for her undertaking to look at this again in relation to 1969–70.

      Teaching Profession (Graduates)
      Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he now has to encourage
      1264
      more graduates to enter the teaching profession, particularly in view of the rapid growth and development of comprehensive education.
      The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Goronwy Roberts): The Department will continue to publish booklets and advertisements giving information about careers in education. These are now often supplemented by local efforts to provide other opportunities for university students to discover more about teaching. We are considering a number of suggestions for extending these opportunities.
      Mrs. Short: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that the number of university science places that were not filled last year—1,600, I understand—is a matter of great concern when comprehensive schools are so short of good science and mathematics teachers? Does he not think it a good idea to enlist the help of the vice-chancellors of the universities to carry out more active propaganda for the teaching profession among their students and to persuade the students to train as teachers, rather than that the vice-chancellors should write letters to the Press putting forward solutions that are not acceptable either to us or to good teachers?
      Mr. Roberts: That is an excellent suggestion, and it is fully supported by my right hon. Friend and myself. There is a very good booklet specially prepared by my Department for university students and graduates describing the teacher's work, training courses, salaries and career prospects. It has had a very wide circulation in universities and colleges.
      Mr. Crawshaw: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not lack of information about the teaching profession that is responsible but the fact that too many people are aware of the inadequate salaries paid to teachers these days? The position will not be rectified until a more realistic salary structure is implemented.
      Mr. Roberts: That is another question.
      Mr. Hornbyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the proportion of mathematics and science graduates who took up teaching posts in maintained schools in each year from 1960 to 1966, inclusive.
      Mr. Crosland: Since the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, publish it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      Mr. Hornby: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a good deal of concern about the number of mathematics and science teachers coming forward? Will he confirm that he will bear in mind the importance of avoiding any dilution of sixth-form studies in these subjects which may have a considerable bearing on the number of prospective teachers in the future?
      Mr. Crosland: I agree that there is concern, which I strongly share. It is an intractable problem, as everybody knows, but one to which no one has found an easy or simple answer.
      The size of sixth forms is a matter to which we must pay the greatest possible attention. Whether our efforts in this direction are invariably helped by correspondence in The Times is a different matter, but I am fully conscious of the need for preserving and increasing the standards of sixth-form teaching.

      Separate figures for maintained schools are not available

      FIRST EMPLOYMENT OF FIRST DEGREE GRADUATES IN SCIENCE (INCLUDING MATHEMATICS)*

      Proportion entering

      1960†

      1961†

      1962

      1963

      1964

      1965

      1966

      (a) Teacher Training

      …

      10·1

      9·9

      16·6

      17·3

      17·1

      14·5

      14·1

      (b) Schools

      …

      5·7

      5·0

      7·7

      7·0

      5·6

      4·4

      3·6

      *Taken from Annex B of Interim Report of the Working Group on Manpower Parameters for Scientific growth (Cmd. 3102), except for 1966.

      † These figures include Engineering and Technology graduates.

      School Building Projects
      Mr. Eyreasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will review his definition of basic needs for the purpose of allocating priority to school building projects; and if he will make a statement.
      The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Anthony Crosland): No, Sir. I must continue to give first priority to school building required to ensure that there are enough school places for children in areas of growing population or new housing.
      Mr. Eyre: Is the Minister aware that his recent drastic cuts in the school building programme caused bitter disappointment in Birmingham, that rapid progress in housing development is bringing about a great movement of population within the city and that the new housing estates created are just as much in need of new
      Sir E. Boyle: On the last and most important point, does that not show the great need for the right hon. Gentleman, where necessary, to be extremely severe with plans for secondary reorganisation which could only have the effect of diluting skilled sixth-form staff in an educationally undesirable way?
      Mr. Crosland: No. That proposition cannot be maintained by anybody who read that interesting letter in The Times of today by a sixth-form teacher. It ignores completely the fact that a large number of two and three form entry grammar schools at the moment have small sixth forms and comprehensive schools often have larger sixth forms. It ignores the fact that in some parts of the country there is a trend towards sixth-form colleges. However, there is no ground for the right hon. Gentleman saying that almost necessarily as a result of reorganisation there will be this dilution, or that it is a universal danger. I take the opposite view.
      Sir E. Boyle: I did not say that.
      Following is the information:
      schools as similar estates outside the city? Will he bear this factor in mind and bring forward the new review, which I think he has promised, as rapidly as possible?
      Mr. Crosland: I am not aware of any cut in Birmingham's school building programme. What occurred, which is not unique under any Government, was a cut in what Birmingham asked for. That is a rather different matter. I am very conscious of the movement of population within Birmingham, but the real problem arising in Birmingham and almost all our large cities is that they are areas with static if not declining populations. This raises a problem in connection with school building, when the bulk of the programme must go to cope with what are called basic needs.
      Mr. Leadbitter: Will the Minister bear in mind that in addition to the basic needs

      1267
      definition, there are problems arising out of questions of amalgamation where Boundary Commission recommendations resulted in changes? Would he also take into account the reorganisation and the question of adequately supporting school populations in areas affected by such measures?
      Mr. Crosland: Yes, Sir. We certainly take these matters into account, as we take into account all the factors which create an altered distribution of the demand for school building, and in the course of this examination there are bound to be areas which are disappointed.
      Sir E. Boyle: Is it not a fact that in 1964 Birmingham was allocated about £¾ million for school improvements? Is it not a rather serious matter that absolutely no money should have been allocated this time for secondary improvements, bearing in mind the rising school leaving age in the 1970s and that there is a large number of senior elementary schools, in effect, which very badly need replacement?
      Mr. Crosland: The right hon. Gentleman quoted a figure of £¾ million for 1964–65. If we take the total allocation of school building resources to Birmingham this year, including the allocation for raising the school leaving age, the figure comes to just under £1 million. Therefore,

      1967 EXAMINATIONS

      Name of Board

      Entry or Registration Fee

      Subject Entry Fee

      G.C.E. 'O' Level:

      University of London School Examinations Council

      20s.

      0d.

      15s.

      0d*

      Southern Universities' Joint Board

      20s.

      0d.

      12s.

      6d.

      Oxford and Cambridge Schools Examination Board

      10s.

      0d.

      10s.

      0d.

      Cambridge University Local Examinations Syndicate

      20s.

      0d.

      10s.

      0d.

      Oxford Delegacy of Local Examinations

      20s.

      0d.

      12s.

      6d.

      Joint Matriculation Board

      20s.

      0d.

      10s.

      0d.

      Associated Examing Board

      21s.

      0d.

      11s.

      0d.*

      Welsh Joint Education Committee

      20s.

      0d.

      12s.

      6d.*

      (Mathematics

      15s.

      0d.)

      C.S.E.:

      Metropolitan Regional Examinations Board

      Nil

      27s.

      6d.

      Southern Regional Examinations Board

      Nil

      30s.

      0d.

      Middlesex Regional Examinations Board

      Nil

      37s.

      0d.

      South Western Regional Examinations Board

      20s.

      0d.

      30s.

      0d.

      West Midlands Regional Examinations Board

      10s.

      0d.

      25s.

      0d.

      Wales (Welsh Joint Education Committee Secondary Examinations Sub-Committee)

      20s.

      0d.

      25s.

      0d.

      East Anglian Regional Examinations Board

      30s.

      0d.

      15s.

      0d.

      South-East Regional Examinations Board

      40s.

      0d.

      20s.

      0d.

      Yorkshire Regional Examinations Board

      Nil

      45s.

      0d.

      North Regional Examinations Board

      Nil

      45s.

      0d.

      North Western Secondary School Examinations Board

      20s.

      0d.

      20s.

      0d.

      East Midland Regional Examinations Board

      20s.

      0d.

      25s.

      0d.

      Associated Lancashire Schools Examining Board

      20s.

      0d.

      20s.

      0d.

      West Yorkshire and Lindsey Regional Examining Board

      Nil

      28s.

      6d.

      *These bodies charge additional fees for certain oral and practical examinations.

      the comparison is by no means unfavourable.

      Examinations (Cost)
      Mr. Ridleyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the cost of taking each subject of the "O" level examination and Certificate of Secondary Education examination, respectively.
      Mrs. Shirley Williams: As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      Mr. Ridley: Is it true that the difference is 8s. 6d. and 30s. respectively, or thereabouts? If my figures are correct, why is there such an enormous difference between the cost of these two examinations?
      Mrs. Williams: The range for G.C.E. subject entry fees is 10s. to 15s. For C.S.E. the subject entry fee ranges from 15s. to 45s. In addition, some G.C.E. boards and some C.S.E. boards ask for an entrance fee. The reason for the difference between G.C.E. and C.S.E. fees is that a smaller number of people up to the present time is going forward for C.S.E. and there are three modes of examination. This puts a heavier burden on each individual examiner, and more of them are required.
      Following is the information:

      Drugs
      Mr. Deedesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what guidance he has sent to local education authorities to assist schoolteachers to deal with the misuse of dangerous drugs.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell): The general pamphlet on Health Education is being revised and will contain a section on drugs: meanwhile the Department's medical officers are in close touch with medical officers of health, particularly in those areas where drug taking is suspected.
      Mr. Deedes: Surely there is a case for some urgency here? How did it come about that the Inner London Education Authority circulated all its schools with advice the other day? Was that done after consultation with the Secretary of State?
      Mr. Howell: We certainly knew what the Inner London Education Authority was doing in its area, and I have copies of its pamphlets here. There was consultation. As I think I said in an answer to the right hon. Gentleman on an earlier occasion, the Department's general pamphlet on the school health service and related matters is under fundamental review and we hope to get it out very soon. It will include advice on drug taking.
      Mrs. Renée Short: Is my hon. Friend aware that he gave precisely the same reply to me last 10th November—seven months ago? Is not this pamphlet prepared by his Department yet? Is he aware that teachers very badly need guidance on this very urgent problem, and will he see that his Department gets a move on? It is too long to wait.
      Mr. Howell: I am aware, and am as equally concerned as my hon. Friend about it, of the delay in re-issuing this pamphlet, which was last issued in 1957. Drug taking, however, is a very small portion of the whole and it is very important that the pamphlet as a whole should be reviewed in accordance with modern knowledge and techniques.
      Mr. Deedes: On a point of order. Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the
      1270
      reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

      Building Programme (Norfolk)
      Mr. Hazellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will state the capital allocation for building new schools or major extensions to existing schools made available to the Norfolk County Council for the years 1960–61 to 1967–68.
      Mrs. Shirley Williams: The total for the eight years is £3,857,000.
      Mr. Hazell: I thank my hon. Friend for her reply, but may I ask whether she is aware that conditions in a number of primary schools in Norfolk are extremely unsatisfactory, that some are overcrowded, that many lack modern sanitary facilities and that in North Walsham it is unlikely that all the school children reaching 5 years of age at the end of the year will be able to be accommodated because of the shortage of places?
      Mrs. Williams: The difficulty arises mainly because Norfolk has little basic need and mostly requires improvements. The whole of the 1968–69 major building programme has been given up to primary projects only. As to the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, children who have reached the age of 5 but have not yet reached the term after their fifth birthday, are taken on at the discretion of the headmaster if he has places. It is not a statutory requirement.

      School Meals
      Mr. Charles Morrisonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give an undertaking that the present charge to parents for school meals will not be abolished.
      Mr. Crosland: I am still considering this matter in the light of the Report of the Estimates Committee.
      Mr. Morrison: On 13th April the right hon. Gentleman said that there would be no early answer on the review of school meal prices and he has now reiterated it. Is it not time that a decision was taken, bearing in mind the steadily increasing cost both to ratepayers and taxpayers and the money needed for higher educational projects?
      Mr. Crosland: As the hon. Gentleman will know from listening to the very varied range of supplementary questions always asked on this subject, it is a very complicated and controversial matter. It would not be right to hurry a decision. I am pursuing this investigation with what I hope is reasonable expedition but without undue haste.
      Mr. William Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, whilst the Estimates Committee made recommendations, they were based exclusively on the economic and financial arguments concerned and did not and could not relate to the very important—indeed, more important—social implications of any change of policy?
      Mr. Crosland: I entirely agree. If one viewed this simply as a financial or economic matter it might be a plain case for one to make up one's mind, but my hon. Friend is right in saying that a large number of social and welfare considerations come into it which would make it foolish to rush a decision.

      Social and Physical Training Grants (Regulations)
      Mr. Hamlingasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions he has had about the Social and Physical Training Grants Regulations, 1959; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Denis Howell: New regulations are at present being drafted and will, in due course, be the subject of discussion with the local authority associations and other interested bodies in the usual way.
      Mr. Handing: Will my hon. Friend take care to see that Inverliever Lodge is covered by the regulations as well as some of the wealthy private golf clubs?
      Mr. Howell: We do not give financial support to wealthy private golf clubs. As far as Inverliever Lodge is concerned, I am happy to say that the undertaking I gave to discuss this within the Government, particularly with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, is being implemented.
      Sir E. Boyle: How soon does the hon. Gentleman hope that a statement may be made to the House or a Question answered on the subject?
      Mr. Howell: I am aware of the concern but I do not think I can give a date.

      Secondary Reorganisation (Inner London)
      Mr. Hamlingasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have been made to him by the Inner London Education Authority on the reorganisation of secondary schools; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Crosland: I received the Inner London Education Authority's reorganisation plan on 17th March of this year. On 10th May the Authority informed me that it wished to withdraw the plan for further consideration.
      Mr. Hamling: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Conservative-controlled G.L.C. has recently sent out a statement of Conservative policy on comprehensive schools, using teachers and schools for circulation? What steps is he taking to deal with this invasion of the schools by politics?
      Mr. Crosland: I saw a copy of that letter and, while one may have one's personal view about some of the phraseology and the references to Conservative Party policy, I do not think it contained anything to give me any ground for intervention.

      Community Mental Health Service
      Dr. Winstanleyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will publish the results so far of research by the Clinical Psychiatry Research Unit of the Medical Research Council on the evaluation of a community mental health service, in which factors determining admission to mental hospital, the effects on the family of caring for mentally-ill patients and the outcome after two years are being assessed.
      Mr. Goronwy Roberts: No, Sir. A number of papers on the study of community care in mental illness currently being undertaken by the Council's Clinical Psychiatry Research Unit, with the co-operation of the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, has already been published in the medical and scientific journals and further results will be given in this way in due course.
      Dr. Winstanley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a number of bodies are eagerly awaiting the results of that very important piece of research and that some have postponed decisions on projects of their own pending consideration of the results? Will he undertake to assist the M.R.C. in disseminating these results as soon as possible when they become available?
      Mr. Roberts: This is a continuing study in a very important field. A number of valuable papers have been published in the accepted journals. I will look into the point about possibly speeding up publication.
      Mr. Whitaker: As 47 per cent. of our hospital beds are occupied by psychiatric cases, what proportion of the M.R.C. is devoted to investigating mental health?
      Mr. Roberts: About 8·4 per cent. of the M.R.C.'s total budget is devoted to the study of mental illness and related psychological studies.

      Neuropsychiatric Research Unit
      Dr. Winstanleyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the budget for 1967–68 of the neuropsychiatric research unit of the Medical Research Council.
      Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Direct recurrent expenditure is expected to be approximately £88,000.
      Dr. Winstanley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the work of this unit under the direction of Dr. Richter is arousing great interest in this country and overseas? Will he agree that this week, Mental Health Week, would be a happy occasion on which to enable it to expand its work?
      Mr. Roberts: Any worth-while proposal from this unit or any other will be carefully considered by the M.R.C. I am aware of the value of the work of this unit and the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that, since 1963–64, the recurrent grant to it has jumped from £56,000 to £88,000.

      Independent Schools
      Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now take steps
      1274
      to expedite the inspection of all those private fee-paying schools not recognised as efficient; and if, meanwhile, he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of all such schools.
      Mr. Crosland: Frequency of inspection is one of the matters which my hon. Friend the Minister of State is examining in her inquiry into standards at independent schools. There are over 1,700 schools on the Register of Independent schools which, as required by the Education Act, 1944, is open to public inspection at the offices of my Department.
      Mr. Hamilton: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the recent notorious case caused a great deal of disquiet in the country and that it is in the interests of the public, the parents and the children that the names of the schools recognised as inefficient should be widely known to the public? A list of these schools published in HANSARD and the Press would be of enormous help in safeguarding children and parents from the kind of abuse so evident in that case.
      Mr. Crosland: The case to which my hon. Friend refers caused a great deal of public disquiet and it was for that reason that I asked my hon. Friend the Minister of State to conduct an urgent inquiry into the whole question of our powers in respect of independent schools. Until the inquiry is complete, I would not like to go further into the merits of the issue. There is a register of schools not recognised as efficient and I repeat that that register is open to inspection at any time in the offices of my Department.
      Mr. Turton: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether he can devise a system of distinguishing between those schools which fail to obtain recognition on the ground of quality of education and those which fail to obtain it on grounds of certain building deficiencies? In the latter case, could not he send them a schedule of deficiencies so that if these were corrected they would be entitled to recognition?
      Mr. Crosland: I am obliged for that suggestion. The whole question of the distinction between registration on the one hand and recognition as efficient on the other is a central point of the inquiry.
      Sir E. Boyle: I share the concern about the case which has recently attracted attention and I endorse the inquiry which the right hon. Gentleman has set on foot. However, is it not decidedly unfair to condemn all registered but unrecognised schools as inefficient, and do they not include a number of schools which are trying hard to reach the standards required for recognition, including a number of relatively new schools?
      Mr. Crosland: I do not think that anybody has made blanket condemnation of all of them. Even before this recent case brought the whole matter to public attention, it was in the minds of people concerned with education, if only as a result of what the Plowden Council had said on the subject of private schools in its Report Without blanket condemnation, there is something which we should look at.
      Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he intends to take to increase control over private fee-paying schools.
      Mr. Crosland: This whole matter is now being considered by my hon. Friend the Minister of State in her current inquiry into standards in independent schools.
      Mr. Hamilton: How long will that inquiry take? Meanwhile, will parents have to run the risks which have been run in schools which were the subject of the recent report? Will the inquiry involve some amending of Part III of the 1944 Education Act?
      Mr. Crosland: I hope that the inquiry will be concluded in a matter of weeks. Whether legislation will involve amending the 1944 Act is an open question. It is possible that we shall conclude that it should. In that case we shall hope to do so with the co-operation of the House.
      Mr. Longden: Has the right hon. Gentleman ever thought of leaving alone those private fee-paying schools which conform with Part III?
      Mr. Crosland: My Department thinks of everything, naturally. However, I am not sure that this is the moment at which that solution would appear to be the most attractive to public opinion.
      Mr. Molloy: Could my right hon. Friend say what is the cost to the public sector of education of defending ordinary people against the possible mischievous misdemeanours and crimes of the private sector?
      Mr. Crosland: Without notice I cannot say what the cost might be, but I would not think that cost was necessarily the most relevant factor in the present case.
      Mr. Evelyn King: Is it not one of the difficulties that private schools cannot reasonably be asked to set standards of buildings higher than that asked of State schools when, for example, in Dorset, in a number of State schools there is no inside lavatory?
      Mr. Crosland: Most of us would be content if the whole of the private sector came up to the standards, whether in terms of building or other ways, which succesive Governments have laid down for the maintained sector.

      School Leaving Age
      Mr. Biffenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has had from the National Association of Schoolmasters concerning the proposal to raise the school leaving age to sixteen years during 1970–71; what reply has been sent; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Crosland: The Association sent me a resolution, passed by its Annual Conference last year, calling upon the Government to delay the raising of the school leaving age. I subsequently arranged for a deputation from the Association to be received and they put their case orally. No written reply was called for.
      Mr. Biffen: Does not this incident confirm that there is a growing volume of responsible opinion which argues that the raising of the school leaving age must take deferred priority in the use of any resources likely to be made available for education?
      Mr. Crosland: No. My view is that there is an overwhelming majority of responsible educational opinion which thinks, on the contrary, that on the widest educational and social grounds this is a major piece of reform.
      Mr. McNamara: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, particularly in the North, the only way in which to get this positive educational advance of persuading people to stay on at school is by raising the school leaving age to 16?
      Sir E. Boyle: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that a misleading interpretation has been put on the Economist Intelligence Unit Report commissioned by the N.A.S. and that this report shows that the shortage of full-time teachers, after allowing for part-timers, in 1971 will in fact be 36,000 teachers and not 69,000?
      Mr. Crosland: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has raised that matter, which is rather far off this Question. However, I am glad he did, because the headlines which this report has aroused are all extremely misleading. They wholly exclude the force of part-time teachers who contribute an enormous amount to our schools now. If part-time teachers are taken into account the picture is much less gloomy than the headlines have suggested.

      School Building (Manchester)
      Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what reply he has received from the Manchester Corporation concerning the proposed plans for the St. Anthonies' area which have imposed planning blight upon adjacent householders.
      Mrs. Williams: None, Sir. But I understand that the matter is under active consideration by the authority.
      Mr. Rose: Is my hon. Friend aware that a recommendation would relieve a large number of my constituents from their plight of not being able to sell their houses, and will she urge on the education committee the desirability of freeing them from the limbo in which they have been placed by the education committee's decision?
      Mrs. Williams: We are aware of the difficulties which planning blight causes and I am glad to say that the building sub-committee of the authority recommended rescinding the council's recommendation on 6th June.

    HOME DEPARTMENT

      Detention Centres
      Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will set up an inquiry into the place of detention centres within the United Kingdom penal system and the methods of correction employed in them.
      The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): My right hon. Friend is considering whether it would now be appropriate to review this issue, so far as England and Wales are concerned, and how this would best be done.
      Mr. Rose: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the grave misgivings of many hon. Members about the efficacy and purpose of these institutions? When undertaking the survey, will she bear in mind what she hopes to achieve by these institutions from a penal and reformative point of view?
      Miss Bacon: I realise there are two points of view about detention centres. I have often been pressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House to provide more detention centre places, and the courts have been asking for more. However, we feel that at this time it would be appropriate to look at detention centres as they are operating to see whether there could be some improvement.
      Mr. Carlisle: Does not the right hon. Lady agree, that, contrary to what the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) has said, many people consider detention centres to be about the most successful part of our present penal system? Does she agree that the real trouble is that the courts have places available for only under 50 per cent. of the people they wish to send there? What is the right hon. Lady doing about providing more detention centres?
      Miss Bacon: This illustrates what I said about there being two points of view, but we shall take into consideration every point of view in the review which is to take place. However, if we decide to have something else instead of detention centres it would have to be some establishment which would cater for those youths who required short-term treatment of some kind.
      Mr. Whitaker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the opinion of a great number of social workers in this country detention centres rely far too much on obsolete barrack-square methods and far too little on retraining and re-education and proper work training?
      Miss Bacon: These are all things which will be taken into consideration, but it must be remembered that the boys who are sent to the detention centres are there for only three or six months. There is a limit to what can be done in such a short time.

      Hull Girls' Remand Home
      Mr. McNamaraasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the Hull Girls' Remand Home refused to take the girl mentioned in the case, details of which have been sent to his right hon. Friend by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North, unless she was already admitted to an approved school and sent to the Hull Girls' Remand Home whilst awaiting allocation for an approved school.
      Miss Bacon: This remand home is not at present available to the courts. Because of staff shortages it has been temporarily closed by the local authority.
      Mr. McNamara: Is not a degree of flexibility needed in this type of case, so that a young girl is not sent back to the scene where she was in grave moral danger?
      Miss Bacon: As I have explained to my hon. Friend before, there was confusion in this girl's case in the courts. We are always pleased when local authorities decide to have more remand home accommodation. My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that I was able to open a new one in Oxfordshire only yesterday, and I hope that the Hull authority will be able to proceed with the new one which it is proposing in the near future.

      Girls (Remand Centres)
      Mr. McNamaraasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why, in the case, details of which have been sent to his right hon. Friend by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North, the nearest remand centre with places available was at Durham.
      Miss Bacon: The need for remand centres for girls is small compared with the need for remand homes. Each centre therefore serves a large area of England and Wales, the girls' centre at Low Newton, County Durham, being available to the Hull courts.
      Mr. McNamara: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why a girl suitable for a remand home should have been recommended for being sent to a remand centre? Is she aware that there is such a serious lack of places in remand homes in Hull and the East Riding that in one case those concerned with placing a 12-year-old girl travelled 4,258 miles?
      Miss Bacon: There is some confusion between remand homes and remand centres. The 16-year-old girl ought never to have been considered as being appropriate to be sent to a remand centre, which are usually for girls of 17 to 21. A girl under 17 can be sent to a remand centre only if the court deems that she is too unruly or depraved for a remand home. That was not so in this case and a mistake was made when it was suggested that she should go to a remand centre.
      Mr. McNamara: On a point of order. I said that it was 4,258 miles. To get the record straight, I should explain that it was 4,278.

      Drug Addicts
      Mr. Burdenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the statutory and other regulations which ensure that doctors supply heroin and other drug addicts under treatment with only sufficient supplies for their immediate and necessary needs.
      Miss Bacon: The quantity of drug supplied is a matter of professional judgment, and is not prescribed by regulation.
      Mr. Burden: Has the right hon. Lady's attention been drawn to the teach-in at Manchester on 29th April when it was stated that the supply of heroin was in the hands of six doctors in Harley Street and that people were coming here from Canada and America and getting 1,000 tablets a time, and at which one of the eminent consultants present went on to state that the practice by which a doctor

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      prescribed 600,000 heroin tablets a year could not be justified to his conscience?
      Miss Bacon: The hon. Gentleman is a little behind about what is happening in the House. The whole purpose of the Drugs Bill, which has gone through this House and is now in the House of Lords, is to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
      Mr. Burden: But—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. I did not call the hon. Gentleman again.
      Mr. Blenkinsop: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some anxiety, which is supported by recent evidence, about an increasing black market in heroin, including powdered heroin, because of the reduction in the amount of prescribing by individual doctors?
      Miss Bacon: We are hoping that when we open the treatment centres, where addicts will be able to get their supplies, that position will be radically changed.
      Mr. Burdenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what regulations control the prescription of heroin and other dangerous drugs to addicts entering Great Britain from overseas, and if he is notified of the presence of these people and the length of their intended stay.
      Miss Bacon: There is no special provision for addicts from overseas. The system of compulsory notification included in the Dangerous Drugs Bill, at present before Parliament, will apply to addicts from overseas as to those resident here. The fact of addiction is not normally known when addicts from overseas are admitted.
      Mr. Burden: Can the right hon. Lady give an undertaking that the new regulations will be implemented before the end of this year?
      Miss Bacon: We have to wait until the Bill has gone through another place. It will then be for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to produce the regulations. I would not like to give an exact date, but I am sure that they will not be unduly delayed.
      Mr. Hogg: Can the right hon. Lady state with any degree of accuracy how
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      long after the Royal Assent it will be before treatement centres will be in operation on the ground?
      Miss Bacon: I could not answer that question without notice. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, this is particularly a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

    ANGLO-SOVIET CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE
    Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister when he expects the Anglo-Soviet Consultative Committee, mentioned in his communiqué after Mr. Kosygin's visit, to be established.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): We are discussing with the Soviet Government the terms of reference for the Committee; and as soon as these have been agreed we shall invite suitably qualified persons to join the British Group. When the Russians have done the same on their side the way will be clear for the two groups to prepare their first meeting together.
    Mr. Marten: Does not the Prime Minister recall saying after Mr. Kosygin's visit that we should not lose the momentum of the visit? It is now 17 weeks ago, which is rather a long time. What has been the delay in the formation of this Committee?
    The Prime Minister: We have not lost momentum, particularly on the trade side and the technological side, since that visit. We submitted our draft of the arrangements for the Committee to the Soviet Government which needed a little time to study them and which has only recently given us its views and some suggestions. These are now being considered.
    Mr. Heath: Can the Prime Minister tell the House what use is being made of the teletype communication line which it was agreed should be set up after Mr. Kosygin's visit?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that it has not yet been installed, but he will be very happy to know that communications between Mr. Kosygin and myself on a personal basis have been continuing in a

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    very intense way this week through the Ambassador. We have been in very close touch at every turn and development during the Middle East crisis.
    Sir C. Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that the communiqué stated:
    "The establishment of the Anglo-Soviet Consultative Committee"—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot quote while asking a supplementary question.
    Sir C. Osborne: The communiqué says that the Committee should be representative of almost every activity except that of the politician. As politics play a major part in Moscow, will the right hon. Gentleman see that this Consultative Committee includes back benchers of both Houses to meet with their opposite numbers from the Supreme Soviet?
    The Prime Minister: I should be surprised if there were not full recognition of political realities in the appointment of the group, but it is important to avoid cutting across the work of the Anglo-Soviet Parliamentary Committee and relations between this Parliament and the Supreme Soviet, work in which the hon. Gentleman himself has played a distinguished part. This new proposal should not cut across that very valuable work.
    Mr. Heath: Can the Prime Minister say what has held up the installation of the line, to which he gave such importance and prominence on television after the meeting?
    The Prime Minister: There have been technical discussions between the two sides and there are certain technical difficulties to be overcome, but there is no blockage of any agreement to set it up. We have this week again been discussing the urgency of establishing it.

    NUCLEAR WEAPONS
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of Her Majesty's Government's decision to apply for membership of the European Economic Community, he will invite the Heads of Government of the European Economic Community member countries to meet with him to consider the scope
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    for a European nuclear consultative committee to advise on the use and targeting of the British and French nuclear deterrents.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Would not the Prime Minister agree that some such proposal as this might do something to reestablish the credibility of the Government's approach to Europe? Will he consider discussing this with President de Gaulle when they meet at Rambouillet later this month?
    The Prime Minister: There is no lack of credibility about our approach to membership of E.E.C. We believe that co-ordination of such matters as are referred to in the Question, the use and targeting of nuclear weapons, are appropriately matters for N.A.T.O. and that adequate machinery exists for that purpose. New developments in that machinery have clearly got off to a good start. However, having said that, I believe that there is a very great possibility for co-operation between ourselves and the Six and others in Western Europe in the peaceful use of atomic energy and, as I have said many times, for making Euratom much more of a reality.
    Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister therefore saying that he refuses to discuss these matters of defence with President de Gaulle at Rambouillet, or wherever it is they are to meet?
    The Prime Minister: The talks with President de Gaulle, which will not be at Rambouillet, will range over every aspect of world affairs because, as I said to him at Bonn, in January we inevitably concentrated our discussions on Common Market problems. Obviously, we shall talk about defence and about N.A.T.O. and about all world problems in which we have a common interest. However, as I have made clear before, we do not regard a bilateral military nuclear defence deal as part of, or related to, our application to join the Common Market.
    Mr. Heath: I must press the Prime Minister on this. The President of France at his last Press conference specifically mentioned the question of defence, as between Britain and the Six and France, as one of the matters governing our entry to the Community.

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    Even though I agree that this was not contained in the report in The Times, it was in the report of the Press conference. Is it not therefore a matter which the Prime Minister has to raise specifically with the President of France in these talks?
    The Prime Minister: Certainly defence will be discussed. I have made that plain. It is impossible for two important Powers like Britain and France to consider their joint interests in world affairs over the whole world as well as Europe without talking about defence. What I said we should not be discussing in the Common Market context were the proposals, which I think the right hon. Gentleman has cherished, for pooling all the Anglo-French deterrents or any nuclear military deal as part of the application for membership of the Common Market. Defence in its widest sense will be discussed. President de Gaulle was right in what he said in the full report. What happened in defence immediately before Rambouillet had a decisive effect on the right hon. Gentleman's own application.

    MINISTRIES OF COMMON WEALTH AFFAIRS AND OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Prime Minister if he will merge the Ministry of Commonwealth Affairs with the Ministry of Overseas Development.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. King: Does not this Ministry already contain more Ministers than ever before, and why should Overseas Development of all Ministries bear so needlessly a top-heavy burden?
    The Prime Minister: In dissociating the aid and development Department from the Commonwealth Office, which I think was wise, we followed the practice of our predecessors. Though the Ministry of Overseas Development is now organised on somewhat different lines, it is based on the same principles of separation. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Overseas Development Ministry is responsible for aid and development to non-Commonwealth countries, and is also responsible for our relationship with most of the principal
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    international and technical assistance organisations, including U.N.E.S.C.O. and others.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Arising out of my right hon. Friend's reply, would he not agree that there are many non-Commonwealth countries where the need and desire for British technical and financial assistance is just as great as in Commonwealth countries, and some of them where the conditions for harmonious and uninhibited co-operation are much better?
    The Prime Minister: There are very many cases where we would like to be able to give more help. It is a question of the limits, of what is available, and we believe that our present deployment. which is mainly, though not exclusively. concentrated on Commonwealth countries, shows about the right balance of priorities.

    EAST OF SUEZ (BRITISH FORCES)
    Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the Prime Ministers of all the countries affected by British troop withdrawals east of Suez, to a conference, so that such withdrawals may take place smoothly.
    The Prime Minister: No. Adequate arrangements already exist for any consultation that may be needed with the Governments concerned.
    Mr. Wyatt: Does the Prime Minister realise that recent events have proved once and for all the utter futility of these bases and that they were unable to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open, to stop the fighting, or to prevent the Arab countries cutting off our oil supplies? Does he further realise that his vainglorious insistence on maintaining them is the principal reason for our economic difficulties in repairing the balance of payments crisis—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. If the hon. Member for Bosworth would put his question briefly—
    Mr. Wyatt: Would the Prime Minister now come to his senses and get rid of these bases so that we can attend to our own affairs, which are not in a very good

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    state, instead of trying to run everyone else's?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend asked me if I am aware of a number of suggestions. I have, of course, read his article in the Daily Mirror this morning, which was expressed in the same colourful but irrelevant language as his supplementary questions. The House has many times discussed this on defence debates. I am sorry that we have not convinced my hon. Friend about the Tightness of the Government's policy, but he will no doubt express himself on this from time to time.
    Sir D. Renton: Will there be a reappraisal of our defence policy east of Suez when the present war in the Middle East is over and in the light of events which have taken place in the course of it?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. friends and I have made clear that there has been continuing consideration of this problem and, on the point which comes up very much in the original Question of my hon. Friend, this will be discussed with the Prime Minister of Australia next week. The Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand is here now, the Prime Ministers of Singapore and Malaysia are coming. Shortly we shall have had discussions with all of them, as we have recently had in Washington, and then the position will made clear to the House.
    Mr. Mayhew: When the Prime Minister referred to the Tightness of Government policy, did he mean that the speech he made last year laying down that we should have an east of Suez rôle into the 1980s, and should do this without aircraft carriers, is still Government policy?
    The Prime Minister: The statement I made last year, if my hon. Friend is referring particularly to the rather lengthy speech that he heard upstairs and which was published, remains Her Majesty's Government's policy. As we have made clear on a number of occasions, we are continually reviewing this to see how far our objectives can be achieved with less expense and less demand on our resources. This has been continuous; it was even happening when the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Government.
    Rear Admiral Morgan-Giles: Following on what the Prime Minister said at Question Time on Tuesday, will he confirm that he really will approach this matter with a completely open mind and decide whether the withdrawal of British peace-keeping forces east of Suez is in the best interests of peace in the world?
    The Prime Minister: We have been studying this matter on a continuous basis for a very long time and we are looking at this very intensively now. As I said to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I discussed this in Washington last week, and we shall ensure that we can fulfil our residual commitments in these areas. We believe that it is not necessary in order to do this to lock up the very considerable resources and the very heavy burden on our balance of payments which is represented by the present position, still less to meet the pressure of hon. Gentlemen opposite that we should have heavier commitments and heavier establishments in these areas.
    Mr. Dickens: Can the House then take it from the Prime Minister that he did not discuss with President Johnson recently the need for a British withdrawal from Singapore and Malaysia in the 1970s, as has been widely assumed and reported?
    The Prime Minister: I am not sure what my hon. Friend assumes. I discussed with President Johnson and with members of his Cabinet, as I did also with the Prime Minister of Canada, and as I shall be doing with the Commonwealth Prime Ministers who are coming, the whole question of Britain's position in the area. When we are ready to make a statement we shall do so. I do not think it would be proper to anticipate the statement until consultations are a good deal further advanced.

    RHODESIA
    Mr. Ian Lloydasked the Prime Minister whether he will propose to the United States Government that the United Kingdom should join the negotiations which the United States are to hold with South Africa on the subject of Rhodesia.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, because no such negotiations are to be held.
    Mr. Lloyd: Since the House will presume, at least provisionally, that the Prime Minister's sources of information are better than mine, we would be glad to have his assurance that if this is so he will accept that, within the limits of reality set by nuclear responsibility and sanity, there is now an urgent need to reopen negotiations with those whom he believes to have the decision-making capacity in Rhodesia?
    The Prime Minister: First, as to the Question and the facts underlying the Question. It was when I saw the hon. Gentleman's Question on the Order Paper that I made inquiries in Washington to see if there was anything behind it. The hon. Gentleman may possibly have misunderstood or seen the misreporting of a suggestion for a dialogue between South Africa and the United Nations on the question of South-West Africa, not on the question of Rhodesia. Otherwise, it is not too inaccurate.
    On the question of Rhodesia, I dealt with this in answer to Questions two days ago, and I was not clear from the Question whether the hon. Gentleman was not referring to the extremists in Rhodesia, whom I think most of us regard now as holding the real power.

    OFFICIAL HISTORIES (EGYPT)
    Mr. Dickensasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the new evidence from Mr. A. Nutting, details of which are in his possession, he will now commission an official history of the British military intervention in Egypt in 1956.
    The Prime Minister: As the Answer to this Questioa is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Dickens: Is the Prime Minister aware that we shall await with great anticipation this statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT? Is he further aware that many of us on this side of the House feel that the present climate in the Middle East certainly calls for an official inquiry and an official history into the events of 1956?
    The Prime Minister: The reason for the length of my statement is that I am taking the opportunity of my hon. Friend's
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    Question to report to the House further on the question of the control by representatives of all parties on new proposals for a new range of official histories. With regard to my hon. Friend's supplementary question, the House is in due course to debate this whole issue, as was promised by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. [Interruption.]
    While resisting the temptation to enter into this subject at the present time—I do not think that it would help my right hon. Friend in what he is trying to do—I do not believe that the House will be pressing for inquiries into the action of Her Majesty's Government in the 1967 crisis, this year or in 11 years' time, because we have given the House the fullest information in our power; nothing has been withheld and there has been no attempt on the part of Her Majesty's present Ministers to mislead the House.
    Mr. Powell: Is the answer to the question—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to hear the cut and thrust.
    Mr. Powell: Is the answer to the question "Yes" or "No"?
    The Prime Minister: I am not sure which question the right hon. Gentleman is talking about. The answer to the Question whether I
    "will now commission an official history of the British military intervention in Egypt in 1956"
    is, as I have said many times, that we saw no need for an official history because so many distinguished persons connected with that episode have since turned Queen's evidence.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Does not my right hon. Friend think that, even prior to the publication of this fascinating history, there is a very sharp distinction between the situation today and the situation in 1956 in the sense that, whereas in 1956 a British Government helped to start a war, on this occasion we are helping to stop one?
    The Prime Minister: That may well be considered to be a fair point. I do not think that it is appropriate at this moment, when we have these very great difficulties, to enter into certain questions

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    which are relevant from 1956 to the present situation, or to enlarge on the difficulties which 1956 caused in the Middle East and for Britain in the handling of this crisis at this time. There will be a time to say all that later.
    Dame Irene Ward: Has the right hon. Gentleman ascertained whether the United States and Russia entered into an agreement on recent events in the Middle East without informing the Foreign Office?
    The Prime Minister: There is certainly no question of that. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary explained to the House yesterday about the agreement reached at the Security Council in which our representative, Lord Caradon, played a very full and significant part.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We are past Question Time.
    Following is the answer:
    The House will recall my announcement of 10th August last that a standing inter-party group of Privy Counsellors was to be established to consider proposals for a new range of official histories covering selected periods or episodes of peacetime history. I am happy to be able to tell the House, following consulations between the parties, that this standing group has now been constituted. Its members are, for the Government, and to act as Chairman, the Right Hon. Patrick Gordon Walker, Minister without Portfolio, for the Official Opposition, the Rt. Hon. Sir Alec Douglas-Home, and for the Liberal Party, the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore.
    The particular suggestion contained in my hon. Friend's question would be one for consultation with this group, but the House might well feel that it would be unwise for the Government to commission a work of this kind at the present time, when all our efforts should be directed towards reducing the tensions in the Middle East.

MIDDLE EAST
Sir Alec Douglas-Home (by Private Notice)Sir Alec Douglas-Home (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement about the situation in the Middle East.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): I have endeavoured to keep the House very fully informed about developments in the Middle East, but there is, frankly, little I can add today. The situation is very fluid and it is simply not possible at this
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moment to amplify the general picture I gave yesterday.
The immediate necessity is to obtain an effective cease-fire. The position on this is that the Israel Foreign Minister said in the Security Council yesterday that his Government were ready to accept the Security Council resolution calling for a cease-fire at 8 p.m. G.M.T. provided that the Arab Governments did the same.
So far, the Arab Governments have refused to do the same, with the exception of Jordan, who have announced their Government's acceptance. But I must tell the House frankly that there are very conflicting and disturbing stories about what is actually happening on the Israeli/Jordan front.
Even though the United Arab Republic Government have not yet accepted the cease-fire, the Israel Government have announced that they are halting the advance of their forces in the Sinai Desert short of the Suez Canal. But I also have reports of resumed fighting on this front.
We still have no positive response from the Soviet Government about arms supplies and it is clear that for the time being there is no immediate prospect of a general embargo. We are, therefore, reverting to our normal practice of scrutinising applications for arms in each particular case, and we are, naturally, doing so particularly carefully in the present situation.
The only material change in the oil situation since yesterday is that the Libyan Government have suspended all oil exports. It is not entirely clear whether this is a temporary suspension due to strikes by oil workers. And here let me say that I understand the pressures that are operating on these Governments in this highly charged atmosphere.
The Arab Foreign Ministers were due to meet today in Kuwait to discuss the implementation of the resolution on oil supplies recently passed at the Baghdad conference. But I have heard in the last hour that the meeting has been postponed. Now that it has become so patently clear to everybody that we were not involved in the conflict, I trust that these Governments will decide to withdraw the actions which they were misled into taking against us.
We have examined the dangers in each of the territories where the safety of

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British subjects arises. We have made plans, some of which are already being operated, to ensure the safe evacuation of British subjects from these areas. In a situation where airfields have been closed and others have been damaged this is clearly not an easy operation, but it is proceeding.
My greatest concern is with the British subjects in Jordan. Evacuation by road would be too dangerous; and evacuation by air involves the danger I have first mentioned. However, by various means, these problems will be overcome.
I will, of course, continue to report developments to the House when anything of significance occurs. Meanwhile, we are in close contact with all the parties concerned.
Our immediate objective must be, of course, to make the cease-fire effective. The House should I suggest, be under no illusions that this may still take some little time. But once this has been achieved we must move on to consider how a more permanent settlement in the Middle East, on an equitable basis, can be reached.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We on this side fully share the Foreign Secretary's hopes that the Arab Governments, at their meeting, will lift the oil embargo in face of the very convincing evidence that neither the United States nor Britain intervened in any way. We would support, too, the right hon. Gentleman's decision on arms as long as the Russians do not co-operate. There are rumours that arms are going into Alexandria. The Government's decision is right.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say a word about the Suez Canal? By what resolution of the United Nations is this now governed, and is the United Nations taking notice of the situation?
Mr. Brown: It has taken notice of it. But for the moment there is not a lot that anybody can do until we get the cease-fire and can start discussing all the complementary things which will form part of the settlement. Clearly, this will be one of them. But the right hon. Gentleman may have it firmly in his mind that I am addressing myself, and ensuring that our friends address themselves, to this as much as to anything else.
Mr. Judd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Israel, even during the most critical recent days of the brilliant campaign, there has been a marked degree of moderation on the part of the Israeli leaders about the objectives in the political reality of the situation and that this is in marked contrast to some unfortunately exaggerated statements elsewhere? Would he agree that our major efforts, and the efforts of all true friends of Israel at this juncture, must be to encourage her in the long-term future to reach meaningful political and economic relations with the area of which she is essentially a part?
Mr. Brown: I agree very much with the latter part of that question. Israel must live as a Middle Eastern Power in a Middle Eastern context, and the more she can be encouraged to think that way, the better it will be.
As to the first part of the question, I dislike, as I said yesterday, these partisan comparisons with what is supposed to be moderation on one side and exaggeration on the other side. I do not think that that kind of presentation does us any good at all.
Mr. Maudling: I do not think that there has been any information about the Trucial States, particularly the oil-producing areas like Abu Dhabi. Has the Foreign Secretary any information about developments in that area, either political or economic?
Mr. Brown: No, Sir. As I am informed, none of those States is at the moment, joining in the boycott or is heavily involved. Qatar, I am told, has recently made a decision to stop supplies, but I am hoping, and obviously trying very hard, to get these things lifted fairly soon. I made the point in my original statement that I understand the pressures which are upon those Governments. We have political pressures on us in this House. It is much more easy to understand the pressures which are on Governments in those States.
Mr. Donnelly: In view of my right hon. Friend's rightly expressed desire to secure pacification in the area, what instructions have been given to the British delegation at the United Nations to facilitate the withdrawal of Egyptian

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troops from the Yemen and abiding by the rules of international law regarding poison gas?
Mr. Brown: I have been so busy with the immediate problem that I do not think that I have given any instructions recently to my right hon. and noble Friend, Lord Caradon, on that subject. Our position is, however, clear. The Egyptians ought not to be in the Yemen. Many problems would be easier of solution if they were not. No civilised Government could possibly support the use of poison gas in any conflict anywhere in the world.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The Foreign Secretary will be aware that only today a Bill has been published which enables Her Majesty's Government to relinquish their sovereignty in Aden. Would not the right hon. Gentleman accept that this is an extremely ill-timed Measure and that it might be wise to take back that Bill and think again?
Mr. Brown: Not for the first time, I totally disagree with the hon. Member. But there will be an occasion for us to debate the matter.
Mr. Paget: Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is not a question of persuading Israel to settle down as a Middle Eastern Power: it is a question of persuading the Arab nations to accept her as a Middle East Power? Is it not true that for 20 years Israel has wanted nothing but peace, and is she not now entitled to demand peace before she retires from the territory?
Mr. Brown: My hon. and learned Friend and I had this one out yesterday and we had it out on Monday. The position remains the same. I believe that both parties—all parties is a better way of saying it—have to accept the same thing. Israel and the Arabs have to accept that Israel exists and that Israel exists as a Middle Eastern Power.
Mr. Paget: Hear, hear.
Mr. Brown: So long as we say "both", we may help the situation. It is when we say only one of the two things that we do not help the situation very much. My hon. and learned Friend continues to start history from a point of his own choosing. This has been the mistake of many would-be historians over the years.
Mr. Heath: We recognise the preoccupations of the Foreign Secretary during the past few days, but ought not the Government to take an initiative in the Security Council to bring about the condemnation of the use of poison gas in the Yemen by the U.A.R? Should not everything possible be done to prevent the extension of use of this foul weapon by a desperate Power in the present circumstances elsewhere?
Mr. Brown: It is a matter for consideration. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Seriously, this is a matter for consideration. I did not take the view that in this situation it was for us to take the initiative on that. The Arab countries, on whose territory it has been used and who made a great show of coming to the support of Egypt in the last few days, might themselves have taken the initiative. I thought that it was better for us to concentrate on the main issue.
Mr. Heffer: As the Security Council has unanimously called upon both sides to stop fighting, but also in view of the fact that there appears to be a continuation of the sale of arms, I understand both from the Soviet Union and from the United States of America, could we not follow up this initiative in the Security Council with a call for the complete embargo on all arms to the Middle East, so that no side will think that it can continue the fighting because it has a supply of arms ready to hand?
Mr. Brown: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. As I said yesterday, I am absolutely certain that one of the elements in the solution must be a limitation and control of the supply of armaments to this area of the world. The competitive exercise that has been going on while we have been exercising a very great deal of restraint is of no use to anybody and must be put right in the solution.
Mr. Hastings: Can the Foreign Secretary tell us anything about the whereabouts or position at this moment of King Hussein of Jordan?
Mr. Brown: King Hussein is in Jordan He held a Press conference this morning and made his own position clear. I am not asked to comment on that. but that is where he is. He is, clearly, still operating as the Head of State of Jordan.
Mr. W. Baxter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the most disturbing part of his original statement this afternoon is that he has made it abundantly clear that we will raise our arms embargo, which has been in operation for the last day or two? I think that most people of this country will be very disturbed about that. I would like my right hon. Friend to reconsider that aspect of his statement.
Mr. Brown: I have a very great deal of doubt about my hon. Friend's judgment about what most of the people will feel. My own guess is that most of the people of the country will feel that if others are putting in replacements it would be very difficult for us to defend a situation in which we were not ready to honour contracts already entered into.
May I make it absolutely plain, however, that every request for arms or ammunition, whatever it is, will be very carefully considered by us in relation to the situation. I would like to think that the same careful consideration will be given in Moscow and other capitals of the world.
Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Gentleman has very rightly stressed the importance of making the cease-fire effective when it takes place. Does he realise that the cease-fire will not last for very long unless it is very quickly policed by some kind of international force along the cease-fire line pending the conclusion of a settlement? Will the right hon. Gentleman begin to take steps now to bring about the creation of such a force, so that it could be ready to go in very quickly when the fighting ends?
Mr. Brown: One of the reasons why [did not volunteer a statement today was that I thought that we were almost certain to go back over the discussion yesterday and the day before and the day before that. I dealt with this matter yesterday. The position remains the same. Of course, I am taking every step open to me to ensure that arrangements are made for supervising the cease-fire and for considering what United Nations presence thereafter can be helpful in the situation. I cannot say any more about it. There is literally nothing more that I can tell the House than I told hon. Members yesterday. But, like the right hon. Gentleman, I know only too well that both these are critically important factors.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Would my right hon. Friend think it appropriate at this stage to express a word of regret at the death of two officers of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation, and think it true to say of these men that they gave their lives in the cause of peace?
Mr. Brown: Yes, Sir. I said this yesterday, and I feel it strongly. If I may go from there, those who have been striving in their United Nations capacity to hold this area are very deserving of a special word of sympathy from us in a situation where their own faith and belief must have been shattered by the events which have occurred.
While on this point, I might say that, to the best of my knowledge, no British citizens have been killed or severely wounded during the recent troubles.
Mr. Birch: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that, at the moment, the fewer comments made in this House on the situation the better?
Mr. Brown: I wholly agree with that, and did my best to avoid any being made today.
Mr. Thorpe: Since Jordan and Israel have now both accepted the call for a cease-fire, could the Foreign Secretary use his initiative to get U.N.T.S.O. working on this frontier, in view of the fact that its headquarters is in Jerusalem? Secondly, since the call for a cease-fire is the united voice of the Security Council, are those who refuse to accept it technically to be considered aggressors?
Mr. Brown: Those who refuse to accept it are in conflict with the other members of the United Nations, although whether it does us much good to draw attention to that I do not know. That is one of the reasons why I did not want to be drawn too far on these matters today, because I do not want things on the record today which will make it that much more difficult tomorrow or the day after to bring about what I want to do.
As for U.N.T.S.O. and the cease-fire, I said in my original statement—and I was not referring to the newspapers only, or particularly—that I was getting conflicting and disturbing reports about what is happening on the Jordanian and Israeli frontier. I chose my words carefully,

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and in that statement I was not identifying one country more than another.
The situation is confused. I am not sure what is happening. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, U.N.T.S.O. was removed by force from Jerusalem to Israel. At the moment, it is not really in a position to operate, although it exists. I still think that the best use of any initiatives of mine is to try to bring about a genuine cease-fire. Then we can discuss how the area can be policed and by whom.
Mr. Heath: Quite rightly, the Foreign Secretary has addressed himself to the immediate problems and particularly to the implementation of the cease-fire. He has also spoken of his desire not to have just another truce, but a permanent settlement. However, it is difficult to see how a permanent settlement can be brought about by a United Nations resolution and discussions behind the scenes. Obviously, it will require, I suggest, a major conference of the Powers involved, with the United Nations Secretariat present and such other assistance from other Powers as is required. Can he assure the House that urgent thought is being given to how it can be brought about at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Brown: Very much thought is being given to that, and I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. As he knows, I feel that, in the end, it must be done formally, at any rate, within a United Nations context. A lot of thought is being given to how we can do it, whether we should start from there, whether we should start elsewhere, whether the four Powers would be the best way of starting, or whether we could do it by direct contact with the parties in the area. We are thinking very hard, and we rule out none of the possibilities. However, in the end, I am sure that any settlement ought to be enshrined in treaties which are registered and endorsed by the United Nations.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Heath. Business question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 12TH JUNE—In the morning—
Remaining stages of the Road Transport Lighting Bill.
Resumed debate on the Second Reading of the Anchors and Chain Cables Bill.
Motion on the Industrial Organisation and Development Order.
In the afternoon—
Progress on the Committee stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill.
TUESDAY, 13TH JUNE—Second Reading of the Prices and Incomes (No. 2) Bill.
Remaining stages of the Wireless Telegraphy Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 14TH JUNE—In the morning—
Second Reading of the Bermuda Constitution Bill.
Motions on the Calf Subsidies (United Kingdom) (Amendment) Scheme, the Agriculture (Tractor Cabs) Regulations and on the Agricultural Investment (Variation of Grant) Order.
In the afternoon—
Further progress on the Committee stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill, which will be continued on Thursday, 15th June.
FRIDAY, 16TH JUNE—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY, 19TH JUNE—Proposed business will be: In the morning—
Second Reading of the Public Works Loans (No. 2) Bill.
Remaining stages of the Bermuda Constitution Bill. In the afternoon—
Second Reading of the Aden, Perim and Kuria Muria Islands Bill.
Adjourned debate on the Gas (Borrowing Powers) Order.
Mr. Heath: The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have kept the House informed about the Middle Eastern situation, but, while it remains fluid, will the Leader of the House realise that it may still be necessary to ask for a debate at short notice? If it is, I hope that he will be able to arrange it.
Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman has announced the Second Reading of the Aden Bill. We were promised a statement of Government policy on Aden and a debate. Can he give the House an assurance that the statement of policy about Aden will be made some days before the actual debate on the Bill? We can perhaps discuss the form of the debate on the Bill through the usual channels.
Mr. Crossman: I will give the assurance that we will watch the situation in the Middle East day by day and see what kind of debate is required. As for Aden, I will discuss with my right hon. Friend exactly when a statement can be made.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Will the leader of the House give time during the coming weeks to discuss Motion No. 563, about the supply of oil to Britain which is being endangered by the war in the Middle East, because it is a very urgent matter?
[That, in view of the danger by war or otherwise to the supply of oil and gas to Great Britain, this House urges the Prime Minister to set up an expert, qualified commission of inquiry and take all other urgent necessary steps in conjunction with the companies now drilling for oil and gas in the North Sea under Government licence to maintain adequate supplies of these essentials to Great Britain.]
Mr. Crossman: From the actual wording of my hon. and learned Friend's Motion, it would appear that my right hon. Friend has suggested in recent statements that this problem is being considered carefully by the Government.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Last week, the right hon. Gentleman promised a statement today on the Government's consideration of the effect of the writ which has been issued about the proposed siting of a third London airport at Stansted. Can he now say whether consideration has been given to it and what action the Government propose to take?
Mr. Crossman: We have taken the best advice. In my view, it would not be in order to debate the White Paper, but it would be perfectly in order to debate the actual Order which the Government wish to lay, if that is the wish of the House. That will mean waiting until the Order is laid. However, I think that I can give a guarantee that there will not be a long delay in doing that.
Mr. John Lee: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to Motion No. 561, calling for an amendment of the constitution to make the denationalisation of any industry that much more difficult? Would he be prepared to provide time for a debate in the near future? Alternatively, would he look kindly upon the idea of a Private Member's Bill to that effect?
[That this House would welcome the introduction of special legislation to amend the British Constitution in such a way as to render more difficult the denationalisation of any public corporation or other nationally-owned assets.]
Mr. Crossman: I hesitate to remind my hon. Friend, but I do not think that we could have the kind of constitution in this country which could be amended in the way he suggests. On reflection, I suggest that basic attempts to tie up this country too tightly usually defeat themselves.
Mr. Peter Walker: In view of yesterday's statement by the Minister of Transport that the railway deficit has increased still further this year, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give time to debate British Railways' Accounts for 1966 at an early date?
Mr. Crossman: I do not think that I I could give any undertaking to have them debated at an early date, but I undertake to discuss through the usual channels when a debate can be arranged.
Mr. Molloy: Has my right hon. Friend given further consideration to Motion No. 518, signed by many hundreds of right hon. and hon. Members, relating to the British Servicemen who were in Sachsenshausen concentration camp? Is he aware of the strong feeling in the House that there should be a debate on what many of us consider a very important issue?
[That this House calls upon the Foreign Secretary to appoint an independent person to investigate the treatment of former British inmates of Sachsenshausen Concentration Camp, civilian and military, who have been refused compensation under the agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Republic of Germany, signed on the 7th June, 1964, with power to recommend the award of ex-gratia payments in appropriate cases.]
Mr. Grossman: I have given a great deal of further consideration to this matter. I was glad that the hon. Member who brought this first to my attention adopted my suggestion and considered the matter with the Parliamentary Commissioner to see whether he, as an independent investigator, would be able, if asked, to cover the case. I have confirmed this and there is now, I think, no doubt that the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Commissioner is suitable, although no reference has yet been made to him.
In the Parliamentary Commissioner we have an independent investigator to whom we have given very great powers, and since the Motion recommends an independent investigation I would have thought that those supporting it might consider the possibility of taking this course. I would not say more than that now.
Mr. Sandys: In view of the strong feelings of abhorrence in the House about the use of poison gas in the Yemen, will the right hon. Gentleman provide time to debate the all-party Motion No. 559?
[That this House deplores the continued use of poison gas by the Egyptian forces in the Yemen and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to raise the matter urgently at the United Nations.]
Secondly, he will remember that last week he undertook to speak to the Commonwealth Secretary about the possibility of a full statement about Rhodesia. Has he further information on that?
Mr. Crossman: I have communicated with my right hon. Friend on that subject, but he does not feel that the time is ready for a statement on Rhodesia yet.
As to the right hon. Gentleman's first point, I do not think that I can add any-
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thing to what my right hon. Friend has said. This is a subject which can be debated when we come to the Second reading of the Aden Bill, which would extend to that subject and also possibly to the general Middle Eastern situation.
Mr. Sandys: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order to discuss the use of poison gas in the Yemen on Second Reading of the Aden Bill?
Mr. Speaker: That I must consider when I come to it.
Mr. Ginsburg: Reverting to Motion No. 518, does my right hon. Friend confirm, first, that it would be open to the Parliamentary Commissioner to interview the men concerned—which is one of the problems in this matter—and, secondly, that it would be open to the House to debate the Parliamentary Commissioner's report in the widest sense, on the whole question of the Foreign Office's behaviour in this matter?
Mr. Crossman: I can give an affirmative answer to both those points. The Parliamentary Commissioner could certainly interview the men, I would remind the House that he would have right of access to all the secret documents in the Foreign Office on the case and also to cross-examine all the officials and Ministers concerned.
Finally, now that we have appointed our Select Committee, it would, of course, be open to it to consider how to treat the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner. It could urge a debate if that were necessary.
Mr. Kirk: On the question of Stansted, is it not a fact that the writ concerns only the actions of the Minister after the inspector had reported and that there is nothing to stop the House debating the general principles of siting an airport at Stansted?
Mr. Crossman: I can only give the advice tendered to us by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. He advised that if we wished to debate this no one could challenge the House's decision to table or debate an Order and that the Order would give the House the power to debate all the issues. He said that it would be dubious, however, whether we could debate the White Paper as distinct from the Order. But I do

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not think that that would make any difference to the terms of the debate.
Mr. Strauss: In the Sachsenhausen case, surely it is not appropriate to refer the matter to the Parliamentary Commissioner, because this is a case where there has been a deliberate and considered decision by a senior Minister of the Government. Surely it is the Government who must be held responsible if anything has gone wrong here. It is not a matter for investigation into the Civil Service.
Mr. Crossman: It is not for me to advise hon. Members whether they should refer matters to the Parliamentary Commissioner. All I have stated is that a tentative approach has been made to him and that the case is within his jurisdiction. It is entirely up to the House and individual hon. Members whether they refer it to him or not.
Mr. Robert Carr: Reverting to the Stansted question, will the right hon. Gentleman note that, on this side of the House, we would not be agreeable to debate the Order in advance of debating the White Paper?
Mr. Crossman: I appreciate the point, but I would put it to the right hon. Gentleman that I had the impression that the House did not want an over-long delay before debating the matter. We have taken legal advice and it was thought proper to warn the House that it might debate the Order but not the White Paper as distinct from the Order. If it is felt that we should debate both simultaneously, we may have some postponement of the debate. I thought that right hon. and hon. Members were anxious to have one in the relatively near future.
Mr. Frank Allaun: When will the Government's proposals for putting baths, lavatories and hot water into 3 million old houses which need them be published and discussed?
Mr. Crossman: I know the importance my hon. Friend attaches to this subject. I will discuss it with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and no doubt he will make a statement.
Mr. Neave: On Motion 518, if the Parliamentary Commissioner were to find that this was a case of maladministration,
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would the Government feel absolutely bound to have a debate?
Mr. Crossman: I hate anticipating, but it is my impression that, if that were found, it would be the natural thing to expect the House to debate it. I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: The Employment Agencies Bill is down for its Report stage and Third Reading on Friday. I hope that it will get through them on that day but, if it should not, will my right hon. Friend find Government time for completion of this widely supported Bill, which has had eight sittings in Standing Committee?
Mr. Crossman: My advice to my hon. Friend is to wait and see what happens on Friday. We can see after that what further time may be needed, but I hope that it will finish then.
Dame Irene Ward: When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to announce what decision has come from the consideration of the need to increase the salaries and gradings of those who serve the House?
Mr. Crossman: I cannot give a firm date on this. The Services Committee, of which I am Chairman, regards this as a matter of first importance. We are trying to accelerate as fast as we can a decision on it, for the simple reason that, to recruit the minimum staff we require to man the House next Session, we must get adequate payment for them.
Mr. Leadbitter: On Motion 518, while bearing in mind that it is possible for the Parliamentary Commissioner to consider this matter because he has jurisdiction on this kind of question, will my right hon. Friend remember that 347 right hon. and hon. Members now support the Motion? Why does not my right hon. Friend bow to the will of the House? Why cannot he give time for a debate?
Mr. Crossman: Of course we can have a debate, but the question is, "When?" I have put it to hon. Members before that this is a matter which, in my view, is wholly suitable for a private Member to bring up, after he wins a place in the Ballot, for example. But there are many areas of opportunity.

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Secondly, I do not see that, in the immediate future, the Government would be able to find time for this Motion. Thirdly, as I have pointed out, since an independent investigation is what the Motion asks for, there is a possibility of that investigation being undertaken; and I put that suggestion to the proponents of the Motion.
Mr. Leadbitter: On a point of order. Will you give some guidance to the House, Mr. Speaker, on how it is possible for hon. Members, in the numbers indicated on the Order Paper, to get round the Lord President of the Council's evasion of a request for a debate?
Mr. Speaker: No Speaker has ever been able to advise an hon. Member how to get round a Lord President of the Council. All that hon. Members can do is to indicate their support for a Motion by signing their names to it. Outside that, the pressures must be political. There are political pressures on both sides of the House, of which I cannot be aware.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Does the Leader of the House fully realise that his attitude towards the problem of the former Sachsenshausen prisoners is entirely unsatisfactory? Does he realise that this matter has been dragging on for a full year? The cost of a settlement to the Government would be about £12,000 or £14,000. Three hundred and fifty Members of all parties have expressed their will on the Order Paper. Surely the right hon. Gentleman ought not to get out of his responsibility by passing it on to the Parliamentary Commissioner. But if he elects to do that, will he eventually accept the findings of the Parliamentary Commissioner?
Mr. Crossman: I recognise the hon. Gentleman as a reasonable opponent. My job is to discuss the business of the House. The question put to me was whether or not the Government could or should find time to debate this Motion. I put it to him last week and the week before: there are always three possibilities—Government time, Opposition time, and private Members' time. The Opposition are always able to take time to
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debate these things. Private Members can, or the Government. I said that there was no prospect of a debate in the immediate future.
Secondly, since the Motion asks only for an independent investigation, and since the Motion was first proposed there is a new possibility of the use of the Parliamentary Commissioner, I suggested to hon. Members the possibility of an independent investigation being carried out by him.
Mr. Heath: Does the Leader of the House realise the intense feeling right across the House on this matter? If the matter is put to the Parliamentary Commissioner will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will be prepared to give time to debate his report?
Mr. Crossman: I believe that I have already answered that question. The procedure is that his report would go to the individual Member who raised the matter and then—certainly, in a case of this importance—to the Select Committee. In answer to a previous question, I said that I thought it in the highest degree unlikely that if the Select Committee were to recommend a debate the Government would refuse time. The answer, therefore, is "Yes".
Dame Irene Ward: Would it be in order for the House to eliminate one of the Government's days for discussing the Finance Bill next week, so that we could debate this issue, in the interests of democracy?
Mr. Speaker: It would be quite in order for the House to eliminate one of the Finance Bill days next week, but it would have to be done with the consent of the House, and the hon. Lady must try to get it.
Dame Irene Ward: How am I to try to get it?
Mr. Speaker: It would be wrong for Mr. Speaker to attempt to complete the political education of the hon. Lady. She knows everything about the ways of Parliament.
Mr. Whitaker: Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that if the Law Commission is to have any effect, it is important for this House to take action on the reports that it has delivered during the

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last two years? In particular, does he recognise the importance of this House's discussing its excellent report on family law and divorce.
Mr. Crossman: The answer is, "Yes, certainly". The second point is something that the House will want to discuss in due course, but I cannot promise an early discussion while we are still grappling with the Finance Bill.
Mr. Burden: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not think that I was discourteous to him last night when I pressed him on the question of the Brambell and Littlewood Reports, since the letter that he had sent me had not then reached me, and did not do so until that evening. This gives me an opportunity of reminding the right hon. Gentleman that for over a year right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have been pressing for a debate. Surely, in a year, the Government could give some promise of an early debate on these subjects.
Mr. Crossman: I very much appreciate the fact that this question was first raised before I became Lord President of the Council, as the question of Sachsens-hausen was. I appreciate the earnestness and the desires of hon. Members, and I want to try to satisfy them as far as possible. I bear in mind the strength of feeling on both sides of the House on this and the other subject. But I cannot give the hon. Member a guarantee of an early debate—certainly not in the next week or two.
Mr. Roy Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend give consideration to the Motion on trade union organisation in the steel industry, and consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Power about an early debate on this matter?
Mr. Crossman: My hon. Friend is a little premature in asking me about a Motion which has not yet got on to the Order Paper—although he did me the courtesy of being able to have an initial glance at it. The House should see the Motion before it makes up its mind.
Mr. Webster: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen Motion No. 564, which has 30 signatures and refers to the now uncontrolled railway deficit?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is normal practice for this House,
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during the summer, to debate the report and accounts of British Railways? Will he make certain that we have an opportunity to discuss this matter?
[That this House expresses its deep concern at the announcement by the Minister of Transport that the deficit of British Railways in 1967 will exceed the £134 million deficit of the previous year; and deplores the complacency of the Minister of Transport in failing to lake immediate practical measures to reduce the appalling drain on the taxpayer's resources.]
Mr. Crossman: I was asked some months ago about the British Railways deficit, and I said that I could give no guarantee. I am quite willing to discuss the matter through the usual channels, but I thought that on one of our debates on the nationalised industries it would be in order to discuss this matter.
Sir R. Russell: If the right hon. Gentleman cannot promise an early debate on the Brambell and Littlewood Reports, will he give a firm undertaking that we shall have one before the Summer Recess? Is he aware that one of these Reports was brought forward over two years ago and the other over 18 months ago?
Mr. Crossman: I appreciate this, and also that there is a small but intense demand for this debate. I shall consider it, but there are a lot of other debates for me to bear in mind and I have a lot of other commitments with regard to foreign affairs. I must bear these factors in mind in limiting the commitments I make.
Mr. Costain: In view of the fact that many Private Members' Bills try to get time in the House, will the Leader of the House say what criteria he lays down before allotting the precious commodity of Government time to these Measures?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must ask for time for a particular Private Member's Bill.
Mr. Costain: I am referring to a very important Bill—my own Bill—on the importation of animals.
Mr. Crossman: If the hon. Member is asking me for any firm commitment I cannot give one. I have before me a very long list of Private Members' Bills

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in various stages. On Friday, we should be able to deal with some. The Lords' Amendments are nearly completed. As for others, we shall have to wait and see how they go.
Mr. Peyton: Have not we reached a rather odd situation when over half the Members of an assembly which exists for the purpose of debate and bases itself on majority decisions have said that they want to discuss the issue of Sachsen-shausen prisoners, and they cannot do so? Can the Leader of the House advise us what further steps we can take? Do we have to have the support, expressed on the Order Paper, of every Member of the House, excluding the members of Her Majesty's Government?
Mr. Crossman: No. Let me make myself quite clear. I have not said that there cannot be a debate. I have said that we cannot have a debate in the immediate future. I pointed out the difficulties of finding Government time and suggested another approach that I think it worth considering. There is no question of excluding a debate by the House.
Mr. J. E. B. Hill: On next week's business, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that so long as the Agriculture Select Committee meets on Wednesday mornings, those mornings become almost as inconvenient for some hon. Members as Monday mornings? Will he therefore do what he can to avoid this clash? It puts certain Members in a position in which conflicting interests can scarcely be reconciled.
Mr. Crossman: I am aware of this difficulty, and would like to discuss it through the usual channels. I took the trouble, owing to the wish of Members, not to have agricultural matters dealt with on Mondays. Now I find that Wednesday mornings coincide with the meetings of a specialist Committee. I will discuss what is possible for the convenience of those concerned. Perhaps late nights are another possibility.
Mr. Hastings: Referring to the question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), in
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view of the impending report of the Rhodesia Commission and the strong rumours that Salisbury may be ready to initiate discussions, can the right hon. Gentleman give a more precise idea when we may expect a statement on Rhodesia, which the Government promised only last week?
Mr. Crossman: As I said earlier, I have consulted my right hon. Friend, who does not believe that a statement is necessary in the immediate future. That does not mean, of course, that the situation might not change along the lines which the hon. Gentleman suggests.
Dr. Winstanley: With respect to the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the Sachsenshausen matter should be referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner, is he aware that the Motion requesting a debate on the subject has been signed by more than half the Members of the Select Committee dealing with the Parliamentary Commissioner?
Mr. Crossman: All I said was that that Motion suggested the appointment of an independent investigator and that we might be able to get to the independent investigator in this way and have the debate after he has investigated. I should have thought that that was reasonable.
Mr. Onslow: Would the right hon. Gentleman be more specific about Stan-sted? If we cannot have a debate this week, will we have one this month? Not only do hon. Members want this debate; there are many other important civil aviation matters waiting to be debated for which we must get Stansted out of the way first.
Mr. Crossman: I could not agree more. As an ex-Minister of Housing and Local Government I know that the interminable process of coming to a conclusion has been one of the problems holding up every kind of decision. The Government want to get on with this as quickly as possible. It is a matter of the preparation of the Order. As soon as that is done I will try to make arrangements for the debate.

BILL PRESENTED
  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (NO. 2)
  Bill to make further provision with respect to loans out of the Local Loans Fund, presented by Mr. Niall Mac-Dermot; supported by Mr. William Ross, Mr Anthony Greenwood, Mr. Cledwyn Hughes; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 270.]
WELSH AFFAIRS
Matter of Roads and Communications in Wales and Monmouthshire, being a matter relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. Crossman.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE (No. 2) BILL
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 7th June].
  [Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair.]

  FINANCE (No. 2) BILL

    Clause 24.—(ADDITIONAL PROVISION FOR REFUNDS OF, AND OTHER PROVISIONS AS TO, SELECTIVE EMPLOYMENT TAX.)
    4.23 p.m.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: I beg to move Amendment No. 31, in page 28, line 14, after "person", to insert:
    'was a registered disabled person under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944 or was sixty-five years of age or over in the case of a man, or sixty years or over in the case of a woman, or was a person who'.
    I suppose that we should be grateful for the small mercies in this Clause, which goes some way to meet the objections which we raised in the debate on the Selective Employment Tax last year, but it does not go nearly far enough. In one of yesterday's debates, the Financial Secretary said:
    "My right hon. Friend is unable, within the overall Budget judgment which he has formed this year, to assist all the people whom he would like to assist, and he has picked out what he considers to be the most deserving …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1967; Vol. 747, c. 1136.]
    I shall seek to argue that, in confining the partial repayment of tax to part-time workers and excluding the disabled and older people, the Chancellor is failing to live up to the criterion which be has set himself.
    In his Budget speech on this subject, he said, in col. 1008 that this question of part-time workers was a subject on which he had had the most representations and that the representations showed a strong case for modifying the tax in this respect. We told him that in the debate on the tax and provided equally strong evidence that this was so, but he took no notice of it then.
    The amount of the refund is dealt with in a later Amendment and I wish to deal only with the principle of who receives the refund. The Chancellor said in his Budget speech that he recognised that many elderly people could make a useful contribution, but did not wish or were

    1315
    not able to work full-time. I recognise that the Clause will help some elderly and disabled people who are part-time workers, but this is not an argument extending it to those elderly people of retirement age and those disabled who are seeking, in some cases successfully, to work full-time.
    One could argue in a reverse direction—that the greater the proportion of elderly and disabled already helped by the Amendment, the less reason, on grounds of cost, for not extending it to those who are not helped at all.
    Taking, first of all, the disabled, the evidence is that, when they work part-time, employers are very reluctant to pay the full tax for people on whom they feel that they are not getting a fair return. This is dealt with in the Clause, which undoubtedly includes some disabled people. There is also evidence that fully trained and experienced people are not being discharged because of the Selective Employment Tax. This is exactly what one would expect, because the work of these people, even though they are disabled, is at least up to, and in some cases higher than, the standard of that of able bodied people.
    However, there is also evidence, in the case of the semi-skilled and unskilled, of some discrimination. I am referring to those who might otherwise work full time. Therefore, the problem affects not so much the trained and the skilful and those whose special abilities enable them to discharge their job with equal effect, even though disabled, but much more the unskilled and those who are perhaps kept on by employers for social as well as purely economic reasons.
    I know that the Disabled Persons Employment Act gives partial protection, but there are firms which seek to carry more than the 3 per cent. which the Act requires. The Act does not, of course, apply to the smaller firms, some of which can, and indeed do, employ disabled people.
    I should like to quote a letter to The Times on 2nd November last, written jointly by Mr. Pirrie, the Psychiatric Registrar of the Psychiatric Unit of Brighton General Hospital, and Mr. Jacobson, the consultant psychiatrist at the same hospital:
    1316
    "For several years one of our local mental hospitals has provided a group of patients to work in a factory at Crawley; as each improved and left he was replaced by another living in the hospital. Today, all this has ended. We fear that this is symptomatic only of what is happening all over the country. The casualties of S.E.T. are just those patients whom social workers have been trying to help to return to life in the community. Discharge from hospitals will be delayed and there will be increased demand for institutional care with its resulting deterioration, exactly what for years we have been trying to avoid. The effect of all this on medical and social services can be very great."
    These are not political but professional arguments and the Chief Secretary should give considerable weight to this kind of opinion when considering whether to extend the relief in the Clause to include the disabled.
    4.30 p.m.
    In Mental Health Week it should be emphasised that the disabled—not only those who are physically disabled but those who may be, or may have been, mentally sick or handicapped—should be given priority. I am glad to see the Chief Secretary wearing a badge which acknowledges this in principle, however much he may have to deny it in practice, when replying to these arguments.
    The details of many cases have been sent to me and they show that S.E.T. has prevented the continuing rehabilitation of many people through work, the results being disastrous to themselves and their families. It is difficult to discover the extent of the problem because significant figures are difficult to obtain. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, the present Minister of State for Education and Science, said last July that there were 300,000 disabled persons employed in jobs qualifying for premium, 100,000 employed in work which obtained the refund of S.E.T. and 200,000 on whom tax had to be paid in full.
    What has happened during the past year? In which way have those figures altered? What change will the provisions of this Measure make, if they are unamended, and how many of these people will be left out? There were 200,000 last year in respect of whom there was no refund. How many are there now and how many will there be after this Measure, as it stands, is passed? What will be the effect of that and what would

    1317
    be the effect of accepting the Amendment?
    The other main argument when we sought last year to relieve employers from paying S.E.T. for disabled workers was that it was administratively too complicated. I dare say that virtually anything to do with S.E.T. is administratively difficult, since the whole concept of the tax is so ludicrous and absurd that the anomalies it creates must result in difficulties being experienced when trying to deal with it. However, when the right hon. Lady the Minister of Social Security was Parliamentary Secretary, she said that if something had to be done, it would be done. I trust that this will be done and that the Amendment will be accepted.
    We gather from a reply to a Parliamentary Question that unemployment among the registered disabled went up between April, 1966, and April, 1967, from 38,337 to 50,450, an increase of about 30 per cent. I hope that the Chief Secretary will not say today that that is not as big a percentage rise as the rise affecting those who are not disabled. That would be no argument at all, particularly since the Financial Secretary sought to set up the Chancellor as a sort of Victorian parish relief officer distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving. No matter what the rise in unemployment among the able-bodied may have been, that is no excuse for saying that the rise in unemployment among the disabled should not be treated with the sympathy and practical help which the Amendment would provide.
    It has been argued that if disabled persons were given this relief employers would cause people to be put on the disabled persons register. even though they did not really qualify to be so registered. That is a contemptible argument. It is saying that if the conditions on which people who are placed on the register must be satisfied, some people who are not genuinely entitled to be placed on it will be on it. The problem should not be tackled at the expense of the disabled, but by ensuring that the administration of the law is more effective.
    Much the same arguments apply to old people. A strong economic argument was set out in, among other places,
    1318
    an article by Mr. Peter Jay in The Times on 31st May. I do not wish to deploy the economic argument, because the case my hon. Friends and I are putting rests strongly enough on the social priorities involved and on the Chancellor's definition of what should be those priorities.
    Last year, the Government's refusal to allow the repayment of S.E.T. in respect of employees over retirement age was based on the alleged fact that such a relief would have ill-effects. Much the same argument was adduced in respect of part-time workers. All our efforts on behalf of part-time employees and old people were unsuccessful, but now the Government are forced to admit that we were right in our assessment of the effects of S.E.T. on part-time workers. I suggest that we are right now in assessing the effect that it is having on the employment of old people.
    No figures were given last year about the way in which pensionable employees are divided as between those employed in service and manufacturing industries. Nor was a division made between those working in jobs attracting the premium, those employed in jobs achieving the refund and those in respect of whom S.E.T. had to be paid in full. I hope that the Government have accurate figures of the position and will say what the effect of the Bill will be on these people. The Ministry of Labour Gazette for July, 1965 appears to contain the latest report. It stated that an inquiry had been set up by what was then the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance. It added that that inquiry had indicated that
    "… pensioners were employed for the most part in occupations other than productive processes."
    If that is still the position our case for people of pensionable age is even stronger because many of them are employed full-time. If they are mostly employed in non-productive processes, they will escape entirely any benefits of the Clause, unless it is amended. We need to know the proportion of those attracting the premuim, getting the repayment and those who will be unaffected by the Bill as it stands. There is no Act to protect the employee of pensionable age in the same way as there is to protect the disabled. Retired people are often kept

    1319
    in employment for personal and social reasons, in addition to economic reasons.
    Apart from the economic argument, to which I will not refer, there are strong arguments on the grounds of social justice and priority. Are the Government serious in saying that they mean to encourage people of pensionable age to stay at work full-time as well as part-time?
    We on this side have always accepted that there is everything to be said not for forcing work on those who do not wish to work after retirement age but to give every encouragement to the employment, part-time or full-time, of the older men and women. The Government have paid lip-service to this idea, and if they really mean what they say they can hardly avoid accepting this Amendment in so far as it affects men and women of pensionable age.
    All the Government's words about social priorities will be made meaningless if the Government refuse to accept this Amendment, but their whole argument tends to indicate that they do not really mean what they say. They talk about the need for more information about and research into these problems but the matter is continually being put back in time and we are told that it will be dealt with in due course. I cannot believe that the Amendment would cost very much—certainly not enough to exclude from the benefit extended to part-time workers generally those elderly or disabled people who seek to work full time.
    Unamended, the Clause does some grudging good, but we need to extend its scope beyond part-time work. As I have said, the argument that that is not necessary is not valid, while the argument that it is administratively too difficult is simply contemptible. There is no half-pay retirement yet. There is no growth in the economy. The pension has been cut by price rises so the need to work is greater, but a stagnant economy reduces the opportunities for the old people as for the disabled. The cutting down in the firms which is still necessary must inevitably penalise the old and the less fit.
    I end by quoting from a letter written to The Times by Professor Titmuss on 11th May, 1966, when he stated:
    1320
    "I find it odd that at a time when a number of countries are becoming more conscious of the social aspects of budgetary and economic instruments Britain would seem to be moving in a reverse direction."
    I find it odd. I hope that the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find it odd. And the country, if this Amendment is not accepted, will find it not odd but disgraceful.
    Dr. M. P. Winstanley: I want to limit my remarks to the disabled referred to in the Amendment. Amendment No. 35 standing in the names of my right hon. Friend and some of my hon. Friends, refers also to the disabled, while our Amendment No. 33 refers to the older people, about whom I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) will seek an opportunity to speak. I spoke on a number of occasions when this question of the disabled was debated a year ago, so I shall restrict myself to matters that have emerged or have become clarified since then.
    I want to refer, as did the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan), to the exchanges that took place at Question Time on 17th April, when I put questions to the Minister of Labour, and on 5th June, when the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) and some of his hon. Friends put questions on this subject. In particular, I want to refer to an Answer given on 5th June by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in which he gave figures, and pointed out, rightly, that globally the increase in unemployment amongst the registered disabled was not as high as among the population as a whole.
    He added:
    "In other words, the disabled have not fared any worse than the general bodies of workers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th June, 1967; Vol. 747, c. 623.]
    It is important to emphasise that the whole purpose of the Disabled Person's (Employment) Act, 1944, was to ensure, not that registered disabled persons fared no worse than other people, but that they fared very much better. If one introduces a new measure which is capable of upsetting the balance, it is logical, reasonable and necessary to take corresponding and complementary steps to restore that

    1321
    balance. That is what the Amendment seeks to do.
    4.45 p.m.
    From those exchanges, it will not have escaped the notice of the Government spokesman that, whilst the figure is small, there has been a substantial increase between 17th April and 5th June. I will also say, as has become clear, that this is not so much a quantitative as a qualitative problem. The possibility of employment amongst the registered disabled varies a good deal according to the section of the disabled of whom one is thinking. I have had a good deal of experience with the registered disabled—putting them on the register, acting on behalf of the Ministry of Labour to decide who should go on to the register, from time to time in industry seeing that employees were put on the register and, as a general practitioner, channelling patients in the right direction.
    There are great differences in the capabilities of these people. There are registered disabled who are fully capable of competing for and retaining employment in competition with the healthiest and the fittest of us. They are disabled, but they have compensated for their disability. They have learned other skills or developed their capacities in one way or another. The blind probably provide a case in point. There are certain types of employment that are not as open to them as to sighted people, but many blind people have no difficulty in obtaining and retaining employment.
    Nevertheless, a substantial number of these disabled people cannot compete, and their employment is almost a form of social service on the part of their employers. Many employers do an excellent job in giving regular occupation to someone who cannot give very much in return. The Civil Service does this, although it is disturbing to note that the numbers there are slightly lower. There are not so many disabled persons employed in Whitehall now, but the Government have always set an example, as have many sections of industry.
    As I say, many of these disabled people hold their employment as a social service because it is understood by trade unions, employers and the Government that it is therapeutically important to keep
    1322
    them occupied, and to give them a sense of making a contribution. Nothing can be so disorganising to people's morale than to feel that they are not making a contribution, are not really part of society—do not belong. Nothing can do more to restore the sense of belonging than to give them the feeling that they are making their contribution, even though it may be small in comparison with that of a fitter neighbour.
    It is amongst those people that this growth in unemployment has taken place. I remember the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Winterbottom) saying that he knew from his own personal experience that in the catering industry there were places where disabled persons, sometimes mentally retarded, were given employment. They were sometimes paid very low rates of wages, but they were provided with employment which the hon. Member felt would be very difficult for them to retain once the added burden of the Selective Employment Tax came into existence.
    The percentage in relation to a small wage is very much larger than that in relation to a big wage. It is on account of these people that I am making a special plea. Their plight is referred to by the British Council for Rehabilitation. The Council confirms that there is no evidence that overall the registered disabled are suffering more unemployment than other people, but it goes on to say that there is evidence that Selective Employment Tax has caused discrimination against semi-skilled and unskilled workers who are disabled. Discrimination has also been caused against people with certain types of disability.
    I have said much before about the proportion of the population represented on the Disabled Persons' Register and to what extent this is reliable. People are unclear about how to get on to the register. There is no routine by which the whole industrial field is periodically combed to find disabled persons who can be put on the register. Many do not come on to the register until they lose their employment or are in danger of losing it. It is often difficult to persuade people to go on to the register when they are in regular employment. They ask what benefit it would be to them as they have a job and are all right.
    When they lose a job and find difficulty in obtaining another, they are possibly advised by a resettlement officer that they should be on the register. Then the difficulty arises about people being put on the register who were not previously on it although they were in the same employment. The actual size of the registered persons list is not a clear indication of the potential number of registered disabled persons. That number could change very much in a situation where there was sudden unemployment and people sought to be put on to the register.
    I mention this because the figures are often misleading. When it is said that there are 600,000, or whatever the number may be, on the register and the percentage of unemployed is only so many, that does not necessarily give a true presentation of the case. If pressures arise and people come out of employment, we might find that the potential register is much larger. That would immediately affect percentages and show that the comparisons made with the total population are not strictly correct.
    I have made an appeal to the Chief Secretary, and later to the Minister of Labour, on this question. I was assured, and fully accepted the assurance, that the Government intended to watch the situation extremely carefully. They agreed that if the sort of thing I predicted should come to pass they would take necessary action. The evidence suggests that it is coming to pass and that the Government should take that action. I ask the Government not to be misled by the global figures. This is a small percentage of the people with whom we are concerned, but at the moment they are in real difficulties. Their difficulties could get much greater. The Government have an opportunity here of seeing that they are substantially reduced. I hope that they will accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Harold Finch: I hope that we shall get some concession from the Treasury Bench this afternoon on this very urgent and important problem. It is a serious problem. I said in the debate on the Finance Bill 12 months ago that if employers in the service industries were called upon to pay this tax in respect of
    1324
    disabled persons they would be discouraged from employing disabled persons. We have to be realistic. An employer hesitates and may not give employment in these circumstances because he recognises that if he is employing a seriously disabled person that person is not in a position to do a full day's work.
    Anything which discourages employment of disabled persons in whatever industry has a serious effect on those persons. As the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) said, on the last occasion the Treasury Bench promised to keep the problem under serious review and that if the position deteriorated the Chancellor would see what could be done to remedy it. We have heard nothing more and 12 months have elapsed since then.
    The hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) referred to an increase of 30 per cent. I cannot confirm that, but I know that in the mining areas in Wales the number of unemployed disabled persons has gone up by about 800. Many of those men have given a lifetime to the mining industry. Many of them are suffering from pneumoconiosis. At 35 or 40 years of age they have had to leave there and to try to find another job. When month after month a man has no work to go to and he is fit only for a very light job, because he sees no hope of getting one he becomes demoralised and depressed. I have often had the experience of meeting such a man who has at last found a job and he has said, "This has meant everything to me." It gives him a great sense of happiness and comfort.
    In South Wales there are hundreds of these men. It is true that men can get jobs in manufacturing industry, but if disabled, and unable to find work in the service industries it will be very difficult for them. If the situation continues there might be 1,600 unemployed disabled persons next year. When a pit is closed able men can go to other pits or to other industries, but a disabled man is fit for only the lightest kind of employment and his chances are restricted. These men require special attention. In these circumstances, I hope we shall be given some assurance from the Treasury Bench. Some of these disabled men cannot travel so easily as able men may travel.
    5.0 p.m.
    Efforts are made in towns and villages to find them jobs in shops and warehouses. The position would have been much worse had not many employers in South Wales gone out of their way to find a job for a man irrespective of the S.E.T. Ex-Service organisations, the National Union of Mineworkers and other trade unions, and organisations for the care of the mentally handicapped, with which I am glad to be associated, do all they can to find such men jobs. Now, as a result of the incidence of the S.E.T., employers in service industries are taxed in respect of their employment of disabled men.
    I am one of those who support the Government in 99 cases out of 100. I believe in the prices and incomes policy. However, it is not social justice if, as a result of one facet of the Government's policy, it is made more difficult for a crippled man or a disabled woman to obtain employment. The Government are here retaining a provision which will make the employment of disabled persons more difficult.
    What are the Government saving by this method of dealing with the disabled? Many of these men are in receipt of unemployment benefit. In South Wales the Exchequer is paying out unemployment benefit in respect of thousands of men. I do not know whether the Treasury Bench is fully conversant with the operation of disablement benefit. Under the Industrial Injuries Act, men seriously disabled by injury are entitled to a hardship allowance, which is based on the difference between their pre-accident wages and what they are able to earn on light work. Many of these men, particularly in the mining industry, have taken light jobs and have earned, say, £12 a week. Their pre-accident wages might have been £15. Their hardship allowance is based on the difference between £12 and £15 a week. When pits are closed, these men become unemployed and they seek work elsewhere. If they are in receipt of the hardship allowance, they are assumed to be able to earn what they were receiving when they were in work. Although they are out of work, they are assumed to earn money. This places an extra hardship on them under the Industrial Injuries Act. Problems such as these bedevil many disabled men in the South Wales coalfield.
    I hope that we shall have a more definite undertaking from the Treasury Bench that the Government are prepared to make at least some concession. It is not sufficient to say that the figures which have been quoted are not correct. To the individuals concerned, it is a matter of their whole future. Men who have not been able to work for many years will be in a serious position if this provision continues in force. I hope to hear something much more optimistic from the Treasury Bench today.
    Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: We have heard three very eloquent speeches on behalf of the disabled. I could add nothing of value to those speeches, though I entirely support them. I want to talk more about the older workers and try to justify the Amendments on purely economic grounds and not merely on the social grounds which are necessary to justify them in relation to the disabled.
    Since the Government have taken their decision about the regional employment premium, a whole new area of principle has been opened up in this tax. Geographically outlying areas of employment are to be specially weighted, whether these areas are in the Celtic fringe, on Merseyside, or down in Cornwall. If it is said that such areas are to be specially weighted in favour of the employment of persons who, because they are geographically removed from the centre, should have this advantage on economic grounds, the Government have gone a long way—I suggest all the way—to applying the same principle to those who are not on the geographical fringe but who are upon the age fringe.
    Just as those who are on the geographical fringe are the first to suffer in case of recession or slump, because, human nature and the facts of economics being what they are, whenever there is a recession it is the outlying plants that close down, so it is undoubtedly the older people who are the first to go, and most certainly they are the last to be reengaged, when the recession is over or when there are jobs to be had.
    Anybody who has had any experience of the employment of older people knows how very difficult it is for such people to get jobs, even though an older person is perfectly able to do the work. This

    1327
    is where I distinguish older people from the disabled and why I think that, on purely economic grounds, the case is even stronger. Often older people are debarred because they do not fit in with some pension scheme. They, therefore, go to the end of the queue. They are taken on only as a last resort, because the firm's pension scheme cannot accommodate them.
    If we are to get the greatest effort out of our people and get work out of people who would otherwise be idle, it is necessary to give a special benefit to the old, just as a special benefit is to be given to the geographically remote. The two cases are very similar. I ask the Treasury Bench to think again in purely economic terms on that basis. If the tax is to be selective, if it is to have an economic purpose, one purpose must be to ensure that older people are brought into employment if they have left it, or at least kept on if they are still in employment.
    Therefore, some incentive must be given to the employer to employ older people, because older people will have great difficulty in getting jobs elsewhere. This does not apply to younger people, who can travel more easily, who can fit into pension schemes, and who are generally infinitely more adaptable. It is for my present purpose irrelevant whether the premium is a complete one—a return of the tax—or whether it is one-half, as I think is suggested in the Clause as drafted. That there should be an inducement to employers to employ older people in times of recession is absolutely essential; otherwise older people will be thrown out of work, they will be the first to go, and they will never get back.
    Mr. Hugh Jenkins: The purpose of these Amendments, the effect, is to exclude from the application of the tax certain categories of persons. I want to follow the hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) in his plea for consideration for older persons. I am particularly concerned with older persons in the theatrical profession. Indeed, I am concerned with all persons in the theatrical profession, but, as the Amendment I have tabled to this effect is out of order, I am forbidden to refer to all persons in the theatrical profession and must refer only to older persons in
    1328
    the theatrical profession. I hope that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour will understand that, when I refer to older persons in the theatrical profession, I am really referring to all persons in the theatrical profession.
    I understand that it is in order to refer to categories of persons covered by these Amendments but not to categories of persons by occupation. In other words, one may refer to disabled people or to older people but not to an occupational group.
    The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that on these Amendments we can refer only to the person covered by the Amendments
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, Sir Eric, and I shal1 refer to a certain category of persons sc covered, to wit, persons over 50 years of age engaged in the theatrical profession, a small group within the general group of persons over 50. But, as I said, I hope that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, knowing what I have in mind, will treat the matter in as wide a sense as you will permit.
    For persons over 50 employed in the theatrical profession the effect of the application of the tax has been and is particularly severe. Moreover, it is not of a character which, I think, was intended when the tax was framed. The consequences have been peculiarly sharp for older people in the theatrical world. Whenever it is desired to reduce employment, the tendency is to reduce it among people at the top, the older people. There have been reductions in the numbers of people in theatrical employment. Hon. Members who have been accustomed to watch plays in the Provinces may have noticed that there seems to have been a marked fall in the age of people engaged. This has come about because, in the theatrical world, people's salaries rise over a period, as they grow older. The tendency has been, therefore, when reduction of employment has been under consideration, to reduce it at the top level among actors of fairly mature years who are being paid more money. By reducing employment at that level, not only is the tax saved but more wages are saved as well. There has, on that account, been a reduction in theatrical employment among older people.

    1329
    The Government have seen the point as regards non-profit distributing theatrical employment. By removing the application of the tax to charitable trusts, they have, not by accident, I believe, but by intent, relieved all non-profit-distributing theatrical companies from the application of the Selective Employment Tax. This is an excellent step which I warmly support. Nevertheless, the consequences has been somewhat peculiar. There can be two companies, one, a profit-seeking company, employing a person over 50 years of age in respect of whom the Selective Employment Tax is payable, and the other, a non-profit-distributing company, employing an exactly similar person in exactly the same play, in respect of whom the tax is not payable.
    This is something of an absurdity. Far be it from me, in the context of the employment of older people, to become the spokesman of profit-distributing theatrical companies, but, for better or worse, we have, so to speak, a mixed economy in the theatre and we are likely to have it for many years. The commercial theatre is still the largest in the country—but for the older people about whom we are concerned under the Amendment a peculiar state of affairs is created by the distinction between the two categories.
    I have been careful, Sir Eric, to keep my remarks within the bounds of order. I hope that, when he replies, my hon. Friend will say that the Government are prepared to accept the Amendment and, more than that, that it is the intention of his Department to exclude altogether, before very long, the employment of all persons in theatrical work from the application of the Selective Employment Tax.
    The Chairman: I must point out that the Minister would not be able to say that on these Amendments.
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Bernard Braine: I support the Amendment, moved with such force and clarity by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan). I support it because it makes economic sense and, more important, because it makes good social sense. The Amendment is designed to remedy an injustice to a section of our community more deserving than most of our compassion and practical support.
    1330
    Like the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley), who speaks in this context with considerable authority, having had great experience on industrial panels, and like the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch), whose knowledge of industrial injuries and workmen's compensation schemes is unrivalled, I warned the Government last year that the Selective Employment Tax would have a disproportionately adverse effect upon the disabled, upon the elderly and upon the part-time worker.
    For the disabled, we can say emphatically that the tax has had that disproportionately adverse effect. On Monday last, in answer to a Question, the Minister of Labour told me that unemployment among those disabled persons considered suitable for work in normal conditions had increased from 38,000 in April, 1966, to 50,000 in April this year, an increase of about 30 per cent.
    I have done my arithmetic and have looked up the figures. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour will not say that that increase is less than the increase in unemployment generally over the same period. The figures given to me by the Minister on Monday ignore two facts. First, unemployment among disabled workers is in any event about four times that in the labour force as a whole. Thus, the disabled start off at a tremendous disadvantage. Second, as the hon. Member for Cheadle said, many disabled persons refuse to register. They refuse quite deliberately in order to conceal their disablement. In some ways, this is wholly laudable. It is part of the business of trying to fit oneself into the community and to lead as normal a life as one's disability will permit. Many disabled people feel—they have told me this, and I am sure that other hon. Members have heard the same—that, if they register as disabled, this might prejudice their chance of holding a job or of getting another one.
    Therefore, when talking about the disabled, we are talking not only about those who are registered as disabled—who labour under considerable disadvantage anyway—but about a large number of workers—I cannot put a figure to it—who are also disabled and who ought to be registered as such but who are not so registered. Because of their disability, their pace may be slower and their periods

    1331
    of absence because of sickness may be greater. Such people may well be the first to be dismissed as a result of a tax which was deliberately designed—many terms of art have been used, but this is what it amounts to—to create unemployment in the service industries. That was the purpose of the tax.
    Hitherto successive Governments of all political complexions have accepted an obligation to protect the disabled, even to give them a conscious preference where this is possible. I should be the first to pay tribute to the rehabilitation services of the Ministry of Labour under successive Ministers. They have had a magnificent record in training and placing disabled persons in employment. The real task, as any disabled resettlement officer knows, and as most constituency hon. Members know, is not the placing of a disabled man—that is difficult enough—but having placed him to keep him in employment. That has never been easy.
    Ever since I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health I have had a particular interest in the problems of the disabled. I am in close touch with my county welfare officer, who I like to think is one of the best in the country, and with the local D.R.O.s. I have found that they experience acute difficulty in placing, for example, deaf school leavers, those whose mobility for one reason or another is restricted, those who suffer from epilepsy and other crippling diseases. A young girl came to see me the other day. She suffers only from mild epilepsy, but she has been desperately trying to find a job and cannot. One encounters numerous cases of this kind.
    By the very nature of their disability, the disabled have a much reduced chance of finding work. They encounter difficulties at every turn. They cannot travel very far; they are limited in the kind of work they can do. They get no tax relief by way of compensation for their condition.
    I want to make a special plea on their behalf. It is sometimes forgotten that, in addition to the difficulties I have mentioned, the physically disabled often suffer pain and discomfort. The vast majority of them are socially and psychologically at a disadvantage com-
    1332
    pared with fit workers. Moreover, they almost invariably have worse sick absence records than fit workers.
    The Government must therefore have been aware last year when they introduced this iniquitous tax that a disincentive to employment, which the Selective Employment Tax was deliberately intended to be, would encourage employers to get rid of disabled workers where they could. Look at the way in which the provisions of the Disabled Persons Employment Acts are being observed today under this enlightened Administration.
    I asked a Question on 5th May which revealed that last year 48·8 per cent. of firms in England to which the provisions of the Acts apply were failing to meet their obligation to employ 3 per cent. registered disabled workers. The proportion in Wales was lower, at 32·9 per cent. It is interesting to compare that with the position 10 years ago. The comparable figures in 1956 were 26·8 and 19·2 respectively. In other words, under this Administration the number of firms meeting their quota obligations under disablement Acts is declining. The proportion is declining and the trend has worsened. What are the Government doing about that?
    The Chairman: Order. I do not think that on this Amendment the hon. Member can further pursue the question of the administration of the 1944 Act.
    Mr. Braine: I fully accept that, Sir Eric. May I put it another way? It is the business of the Government to observe and study the trends. Knowing the trend, why did they turn a deaf ear to representations on this point from the British Legion, which has a special responsibility for the war disabled? Why did they turn a deaf ear last year to requests to exempt employers of disabled workers from S.E.T.? I hope that I am permitted to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can confirm that the trend has been worsening. We are entitled to ask him to give us an answer.
    My hon. Friend quoted a letter which appeared in The Times from a psychiatric registrar at a hospital. That letter revealed a state of affairs which I know from my knowledge and experience is pretty common all over the country. Has

    1333
    the Minister of Health made any representation about the increasing difficulties of placing those who have gone through a period of mental illness in the hospitals and seek to be rehabilitated? What advice has been given to the Minister of Labour by his National Advisory Committee for the Disabled? Has it been consulted? What view has it expressed? We should have an answer to those questions.
    I hope that there will not be an attempt to justify the tax on the disabled on economic grounds. There is no doubt what both sides of the Committee feel about the social consequences. It is a tax which operates most harshly against the weakest, the disabled, the elderly, the women who work part-time to keep together a family where the father may have died or be sick or completely disabled.
    What has happened to the Socialist conscience in all this? Hon. Members opposite, who I know feel deeply about these things, should be utterly ashamed of the Government's performance. My hon. Friend quoted a letter from Professor Titmuss, who I suppose is one of the principal keepers of the Socialist conscience these days. He is certainly one of the very few Socialists looking objectively at our social provisions. In another part of the same letter, he wrote:
    "Do we or do we not wish to encourage the employment, part-time or full time, of older men and women and the rehabilitation of the disabled and the handicapped? Unless amendments are made to exclude these groups (administratively this would not present great difficulties) the social and psychological effects—as well as the purely financial—could be serious and far-reaching."
    That is a pretty clear lead to the Government, and I hope that we shall hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Government have relented on this and are prepared to accept the Amendment.
    The Parliamentary Secretary said last year that should there be any evidence of ill effect on the disabled in the operation of the tax the Government would act. I invite the Committee to say that the evidence is there. I therefore hope that the Government will act by accepting the Amendment.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: I do not want to introduce a note of controversy into what has been a very good debate. Having listened to the sincere and eloquent appeals from the other
    1334
    side, speeches which I envy, I am glad that I still represent, even for a comparatively short time, a Lancashire constituency, because some of the problems that were emphasised by the speeches so far do not apply in the North.
    I find a considerable disposition on the part of the good employers in Oldham to find employment for disabled men. When I get a disabled man coming to see me I sometimes suspect that there must be something else behind the fact that he has not been able to resume his employment with some of these firms which have an admirable record. My own experience is that private enterprise in Oldham has a rather better record in this respect than some branches of our nationalised industries.
    5.30 p.m.
    Although I started life rather cynical about the Co-operative movement, when I got to Oldham I found there a society which does great service to the town and which I extol without any jeers at a Chamber of Commerce or Chamber of Trade dinner. The Co-operative Society in Oldham is indeed political. We had a Socialist Co-operative Society and a Conservative Co-operative Society, but the Conservative Co-operative Society went bankrupt and the Socialists took it over and paid all its debts to preserve the reputation of the movement. The Society was unwise enough to support me at the last General Election and found within six weeks that it had to pay £40,000 a year in tax as a result of that support. I apologise to it.
    In this discussion, we all face difficulties, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We recognise the constitutional difficulties of a Chancellor introducing a new concept in taxation. He cannot make all the necessary inquiries because it would be impossible to do that with the necessary secrecy which attaches to the Budget. He has to make concessions from time to time. I am genuinely grateful for the concession in this Clause, although my tributes to the Treasury are never free from some reservations. The Amendments raise many problems, and I am grateful to those who have put them down. Some of them may be a little constitutional. When a Chancellor says that the Treasury is constantly examining these problems and exploring every avenue, it is examining problems

    1335
    of its own child and I am not sure that the introduction of a few step-parents might not provide a fuller and more critical examination.
    When we get up to speak, Sir Eric, even under so kindly a Chairman, I can understand that a speech devoted to King Lear or the centenarian in Conan Doyle's play about the veteran of Waterloo might sometimes verge on the bounds of order, but all of us are passionately anxious not to stray across any sort of canal.
    The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman would no doubt be able to relate any such references to the Amendment.
    Mr. Hale: I was relating my speech to the debate, Sir Eric, but I will now immediately relate it to the Amendment. The Clause meets one of the difficulties of the Oldham Co-operative Society to a considerable extent. In retail organisation, part-time workers are employed because more people shop on Friday and Saturday, and naturally a benevolent society tries to find work for the older employees for those two days of the week. This Clause will at least help considerably in that connection.
    But there are different problems for the disabled persons. These problems vary according to the kind of disability. I was proud many years ago when we got in Oldham one of the first Remploy centres. The excellent record of the Ministry of Labour was somewhat marred when conditions were laid down about profit making or on the ratio of profits to expense. This has meant that Remploy has ceased to employ seriously disabled people because they could not pay their way. The Remploy building in Oldham is very large and is now almost entirely engaged on a routine job—useful work but in a sense a minor form of mass production. The result is that even if one would like to take on a man who may be paravertic one may be unable to do so because he cannot produce the necessary revenue through his employment. One must, after all, make sure that the Treasury does not lose too much on Remploy.
    I am not criticising my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, from whom I have had most helpful correspondence on this and other subjects. I do not think that he has yet had time
    1336
    to deal with some of the complex and difficult problems involved. Where I have found difficulty with the disabled or diseased is that they have not in many cases had the sort of relationship with an employer of a man who has had some years at his job. Nevertheless, such people need very much some method of occupying their time.
    In Oldham, we introduced a special and pioneering scheme for the employment of the mentally disabled, which is a form of trying to clear from our mental hospitals people who have been there far too long. Indeed, some have been there so long that no one knows why they went there in the first place. We found that many forms of mental disability produce a concentration leading to higher productivity than in the case of ordinary workmen, whose concentration may be disturbed by the passing of a mini-skirt or by a desire to know what is happening at Epsom. Many mentally disabled are able to give high concentration to their job.
    Some years ago I had a letter from a man who raised the problem of haemophilia. When he saw me he said, "I know that you will do your best and I know that you will fail and that the time will come when you will say that we are damned nuisances. Everybody does." There is an excellent Haemophilia Society making propaganda and trying to help. It services research and so on. But there are only limited forms of employment for a haemophilic.
    Remploy will not employ an epileptic, although it has one as a rather special case. To my knowledge, it has refused to employ people because they were haemophilic. It is plain that there are dangers, but they do not take place two days a week. They are not made by any specific periodical remission. Nor is the chance of employing them really affected by a specific periodical remission. Haemophilics were employed from time to time, but their record of attendance was such that they could not continue to be employed by the employers concerned who had behaved so generously.
    Unless we give specialised employment under specialised conditions to these young men, they will drift, doing nothing for year after year. I agree with almost every word that the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan)

    1337
    said. The fact that he has a south of England constituency was rather due to a an accident of his own. The sole representative of a constituency such as his in Oldham is a memorial to the first Member for Oldham, but the right hon. Gentleman's early political experience was in the North, although rather on the wrong side of the county boundary.
    The Chancellor must face the fact that we have not sufficient information. The figures are not available, and while I would be the last person wantonly to accuse anyone of intentional deceit of any kind, there is a feeling, as one looks through all the classifications of industry, that no effort has been made to provide this House with information upon which useful and comparable figures could be evaluated.
    I agree that figures about disablement can be very misleading. If a man has been out of work for some time, he gets a feeling that his registered disablement may be preventing him from being employed. Certainly one does have such cases. Possibly there may be other reasons as well. I do not know. But some people have certainly found difficulty in securing employment year after year. There are things like multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's Disease and disseminated sclerosis, the last two being notable for spontaneous remission. A man with disseminated sclerosis can have a spontaneous remission for a short or a long period. After suffering terribly and being even incapacitated from work he may find himself in a period. However, with such a record it is not easy.
    If there is one objective which still remains clear and could even unite this party, which has its difficulties, it is thai the whole concept of Socialism, the whole concept of the Labour Movement, is towards giving help to those in the greatest need. It goes even further if one wishes to be controversial—that we should take a little more from those who have the greatest ability to give, or we should at least try. I understand the constitutional difficulty. No Minister likes to have a discretion about anything. I have had hundreds of letters from the Ministry of Pensions saying, "We could not interfere if we wanted to. Parliament has deprived us of the opportunity and we have no power to do anything".
    1338
    Without derogating from the desirability of accepting these Amendments in toto, there is a case for the Chancellor to say that he investigating this matter not merely inside the Treasury but outside, and that he is considering the effect of this tax upon the employment of people who suffer and who are called upon to suffer for many years grave disabilities and who need help, but who are not helped by the existence of this tax. If this distressing problem were approached even outside the boundaries of these Amendments from which I cannot for the moment pass, then this debate will have served an additional useful purpose. No one in an industrial constituency, in a conurbation, can have any doubt of the multiplicity of the problems remaining unsolved and which have certainly been aggravated by the introduction of this tax.
    Mr. John Pardoe: I accept and support entirely the arguments for the other Amendments, but Amendment No. 33 directs attention to a rather special problem and I shall confine my remarks to that.
    I welcome the Clause, because it goes some way towards giving relief to part-time workers. I welcome it for a personal reason, because almost this time last year I moved an Amendment which sought to do this.
    My Amendment is directed towards the problem of those who are nearing retirement, not just those who have already retired or passed retirement age. Unfortunately, we know little about this group. What we do know leads me to conclude that those concerned are finding it difficult to get new jobs when they lose jobs. This conclusion is not merely mine hatched up for this occasion; it is the conclusion of the hon. Gentleman's colleague at the Ministry of Labour in answer to an Adjournment debate, when he said:
    "Our statistics show that people over 45 … when they do lose their jobs … have much more difficulty in finding another, and tend, on average, to remain unemployed for a longer period than younger people."
    That is the admission of the present Government and might count for something on the Treasury Bench.
    These people have been rather hard hit by the squeeze and by Selective Employment Tax.…There is no doubt from the

    1339
    Ministry of Labour figures on unemployment that the unemployment percentage increases with increasing age in the group I am talking about.
    5.45 p.m.
    These figures, too, have their limits. They cover only those who sign on. We are all aware that this is a limitation which is true of all statistics of this sort. There is no doubt that they show a continuing problem among people in this age group who find more and more difficulty in obtaining work if they become unemployed. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) said that many employers seek to employ disabled people. However, that is not so true of those in this age group who become unemployed. Indeed, the Parliamentary Secretary in the debate on 26th January said:
    "there is still, undoubtedly, a good deal of resistance among employers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th January, 1967; Vol. 740, c. 1926–7.]
    The statistics prove the general experience of most hon. Members. In Cornwall we have a high proportion of old people. This is also true of this age group of people nearing retirement and we are finding considerable difficulty about reemploying them. We find that they stay unemployed for longer periods.
    I have not said a great deal about this Amendment. In some respects it is but a part of the overall problem raised by this series of Amendments, and even if the Amendments were passed, this would still be a bad tax. It has been made a great deal better by the Clause, but it would be made better still by the acceptance of all three Amendments.
    I give the Minister one or two warnings if I may be so bold, about the arguments which he must not use when answering my proposal. He must not say that it is impractical, because the Financial Secretary spent a great deal of time in the debate last year telling us why the principle enshrined in the Clause was totally impractical. Therefore, we do not want to listen to that argument.
    He cannot say that there is no problem for this age group, because, as I have already pointed out, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour has said that there is a very considerable problem. All he can do to save the face of the Government is to indicate
    1340
    that while he cannot accept these Amendments this year, he will, with the precedent of last year's debate behind him, accept them in 12 months' time.
    Mr. John Peyton: Not the least of the very many endearing qualities of the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) is the long enduring nature of his gratitude. I have heard him before discharging the debt which he owes to the Oldham Cooperative Society for the help which he has had from it in the past, and he has done so today with his usual eloquence. I notice that one of many points about him only in passing.
    He said how much the philosophy of helping the needy had played in the life and structure of the party which he represents. It would be a very foolish politician—even I would not go so far—who would deny any merit to the Labour Party. One of the features with which I would always credit it is a desire, whether it always achieves it or not, to do justice to those who are in need. It is for that reason that I find the debate astonishing.
    If I may say so without offence, I do not find the presence of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour a particularly encouraging omen, not because I have any disrespect for him, or anything but regard for him, but because he is not one of those people who are put up to make popular speeches. He is one of those "No men" and is enduring a very painful experience, but doing so with great good humour and almost making friends in the process.
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Thomas Steele): I hope that the hon. Gentleman will now address himself to the Amendment.
    Mr. Peyton: I was merely trying to harden myself against the blow which I know we are to receive on our heads when the Parliamentary Secretary turns down the case. However, I will comply with your request, Mr. Steele.
    One of the purposes which should be kept before us at all times and by all Governments is keeping people within the area of possible employment. Failure to do so is a thoroughly unsocial and dangerous policy. I am amazed that the Government should be led into the denial of this principle, as they will be if they turn down these Amendments.

    1341
    I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) is no longer with us, but I cannot conceive that the Parliamentary Secretary can have remained unmoved by the hon. Gentleman's plea this afternoon. The hon. Gentleman has all the eloquence of the country from which he comes. He has long membership of his party. I should have thought that his eloquent plea this afternoon would bring the Government to respond. He was even able to make the proud boast and have all the honour that he was a voluntary supporter of the Government's prices and incomes policy, and if that does not entitle him to some respect from the Government Front Bench, I do not know what does. Certainly he deserves a great deal of gratitude.
    Labour Party spokesmen, perfectly properly, habitually remind employers and industry generally of their duties towards disabled people. In those circumstances, it is astonishing that the Gov-erment should not be willing to play their own part and that they should have thrust this obstacle into the field. It must be constantly a battle to see that this rather artificial influence which we are able to throw in the scales to help the disabled is not overrun, but the Government are not just not defending their position, but flagrantly acting against their interests.
    I was very impressed by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan). It was an exceedingly eloquent but restrained appeal to the Government. In a rather hard way, we have all learned that these appeals do not always receive the replies and responses which they deserve, but the extraordinary thing about my hon. Friend's speech was that at no time did he even seek to inject the slightest element of a party attitude and perhaps that, if no other reason, should cause the Government to pay even closer attention to the arguments which he delivered with singular force and eloquence.
    I do not want to end on too rough a note, but I want to say quite clearly that I hope that the Government will say tonight whether they care more for the interests of fairness and justice to disabled people or for the integrity of a tax which has never been anything better than a stupid anomaly.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Roy Hattersley): I will not deal immediately with the false antithesis posed by the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), but I should like to make one complaint against him. If on some future occasion he wishes to say something complimentary about me, I hope that he will contrive to remain in order until that passage in his speech is completed.
    Mr. Peyton: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that at the time I was stopped there was nothing left.
    Mr. Hattersley: Neither he nor the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) suggested to the Committee the principles which underline both the primary Amendment and the two being discussed with it, and it is not possible to discuss with any great accuracy or clarity the propositions which have been put to us unless we understand exactly what those principles are.
    The principles embodied in all three Amendments are concerned with providing a special employment subsidy for either the elderly or the disabled in a part, but only a part, of British industry. They are the principles of providing a special employment subsidy for the elderly or the disabled in the service industries and in construction, but not in manufacturing. Considered in those terms, the basic principle must stem from one of three conclusions.
    First, there is the conclusion that the Selective Employment Tax has worked and is moving people out of the service industries into manufacture and that there is therefore a net disadvantage for the disabled or elderly people working in the service industries as compared with similar categories in manufacture. The second possible line of argument is that the service industries are particularly appropriate for the employment of the elderly or disabled and that therefore this specially exclusively elderly and disabled employment subsidy should be applied in those, but not in other industries. The third is that anything which is likely to increase the job prospects of the elderly or disabled in any part of the economy, in any sector, no matter how partial, or how arbitrary, or how inconsistent, is something which the Committee should feel itself obliged to support.

    1343
    I want to examine the contentions which have been made this afternoon in the light of those three possible conclusions and I want to do so by discussing the Amendments in two parts, dealing first with the disabled and then with the problems of the elderly. I must first outline the actual unemployment position of the registered disabled and I emphasise that it is the registered disabled about whom we are talking. The hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) was at some pains to point out that there may be, and almost certainly are, substantial numbers of people who are entitled to register as disabled, but who choose not to make that registration. That fact has some relevance, although I cannot pursue the matter, to his later criticism that the proportion of firms fulfilling their obligations in this respect has gone down over the last ten years. That may be because they have chosen to employ disabled as opposed to registered disabled. I must make it clear that the figures which I am about to give are concerned with the registered disabled, the only people for whom these Amendments can be appropriate, the only people for whom statistics of this sort are available.
    In August, 1966, when Selective Employment Tax began, in the service industries and in construction there were 12,921 unemployed registered disabled persons. By April of this year, the last date for which we have figures available, the number was 18,235, a net increase of 5,314 or 41 per cent. In the premium or neutral sectors of the economy, manufacturing or those parts of the economy which, although not receiving the premium, at least get the full tax refunded, there was an increase from 17,447 unemployed in August, 1966, to 24,036 in April of this year, an increase of 6,500, or about 38 per cent.
    6.0 p.m.
    The hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham anticipated that this net figure of increase in unemployment among the disabled would be given by the Government and would be compared with the total figure. I have to tell the Committee the basic fact that an increase of unemployment among the registered disabled of 41 per cent. during the period under review is appreciably less than half of
    1344
    the increase among the total insured population. The total increase in unemployment between August last year and April of this year was 117 per cent.
    By any standards, that means that the registered disabled have suffered much less from the squeeze and the measures of 20th July, Selective Employment Tax and any other economic measure that the Committee cares to consider than the employed population as a whole. This is an altogether desirable and proper thing, and it is part of Government policy.
    These figures mean something else, too. They mean that the increase in unemployment in those areas of the economy which are paying Selective Employment Tax, but getting no refund and no rebate, is hardly higher than the increase in those sectors of the economy which are paying Selective Employment Tax and receiving the premium. Therefore, nothing in the figures that I have read out is in any way a justification for those hon. Gentlemen who this afternoon have chosen to say that the Selective Employment Tax has promoted unemployment among the registered disabled.
    The hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham told the House of a letter in The Times in which two members of the medical profession had given examples of how mentally handicapped persons recently in their care had lost jobs as a result of Selective Employment Tax. The inquiries made by the Government about that case, and that category, suggests that the people referred to in that letter were employed in the premium category. They were receiving, or their employers were receiving, as a result of that employment, subsidy in the form of the Selective Employment premium.
    Mr. Finch: I appreciate all that my hon. Friend has said, but the fact still remains that the number of disabled persons has increased in the service industries. These increases are going on all the time. The question arises: what has happened to these men who need to be re-employed? Many of the unemployed will be re-employed if a Labour Government is in long enough, because we shall have full employment. But for the disabled it will be very difficult, with this tax, to get employment.
    Mr. Hattersley: I concede the central statistical truth of this point—I do not

    1345
    only concede it, I advanced it, by reading out the net figures and saying quite frankly and openly, because it is the Government's duty to lay the position rationally and statistically before the Committee, that there has been this increase. What I can demonstrate, and what the figures prove, is that the increase in unemployment in the service industries cannot legitimately be attributable to the incidence of the Selective Employment Tax.
    Mr. Macmillan: Oh, yes it can.
    Mr. Hattersley: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham says that it can be, but the only example that he has managed to produce to prove that contention was totally irrelevant, totally inaccurate and, quite simply, wrong. The reason why unemployment among the disabled has risen by less than 50 per cent. of the rate that it has risen in the insured population as a whole is because of some special reasons—special reasons which the Committee would do well to bear in mind when it considers giving a subsidy to the disabled in any part of the economy.
    In part it has risen at a smaller rate, because the very severely disabled receive special attention in the form of special workshops, Remploy, and in the form of occupations, which have been specially designated for their use and in which employment is almost limited to them.
    The second reason why it has risen at a much slower rate is because very many registered disabled persons are able, if they are given the right training and found the right job, to hold down a job on their own terms, and on their own merits, and to occupy that position as a normal member of the working population. That is why I very much regret some of the more extravagant descriptions of the plight of the very badly disabled persons.
    Clearly, these people do exist, but a more typically registered disabled person is someone who, given the right training and the right job, can carry on with that job and justify his proper wage rate on his own merits. Because of that I hope that the Committee will be very careful before committing itself to the concept of under-pinning employment of the disabled in part of the economy—I emphasise part of the economy—by way of providing a special employment subsidy.
    Mr. Finch: My hon. Friend talks of training. This is very limited. There are thousands of unemployed disabled persons. Where are they all to be trained? We have two or three training centres in South Wales. I quite agree that a disabled person, given proper training and found a job, is able to carry on with that job, but thousands of men cannot be expected to travel miles to a training centre when they are crippled, when their backs are half broken. This is an exaggeration on the part of my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Hattersley: The rules of order prevent me from going in any great detail into the Government's very substantial programme for increasing the training schedules for disabled workers, and for that matter for the working population as a whole. I hope that my hon. Friend will put his mind to the point which flows naturally from this. As a supporter of two Amendments which are concerned with disabled men, he is saying to the service industries that in order to make the employment of disabled persons a viable proposition, the Government understand and accept the necessity to subsidise them. He is not saying that to the manufacturing sector of the economy, but I ask him and other hon. Ladies and hon. Gentlemen who support, or feel inclined to support the Amendments, what will be, first of all, the attitude of the men. Their morale in many cases may be undermined by the suggestion that their employment is possible only if someone meets part of their wage bill and subsidise their existence. Secondly, what will the attitude be of management in the manufacturing sector who hear the Government say that they will subsidise disabled persons in the service industries? The implication of that is that they cannot be employed as viable units in their own right, yet the Government do not provide a subsidy in the manufacturing sector.
    Some are entitled to conclude that it means that many registered disabled persons should not, or could not, or might not, be employed on their own merits. If they conclude that, in the absence of the provision of a subsidy to make their employment worth while, we are taking a very dangerous step, which is not in the interests of the registered disabled. What is basically and primarily in their

    1347
    interests is finding them the sort of training, and putting them to the sort of job, which enables them to work on their own merits, and earn wages according to their abilities.
    I refer the Committee to the guide that my Ministry produced to the 1944 and 1958 Acts, which puts the matter exactly in perspective. It says:
    "Experience has shown that the great majority of the disabled can take their place with others in ordinary work if their occupations are carefully chosen."
    That should be our rule, and that should be our duty and our policy. In many ways, it is.
    The quota system is intended to bring that about. The fact that disabled persons, doing a good job cannot be dismissed without reasonable cause is designed to bring that about; the fact that some jobs which, by any standards, the disabled can do just as well as anyone else are specially designated for them, is designed to bring that about. As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Essex, South-East was generous enough to say, the work of my Ministry's disablement resettlement officers is very largely concentrated on doing this—getting the men into a job which enables them to go on working, not as a disabled person, but as ordinary members of society, doing the job in the ordinary and typical way. To imply that that is not possible without a special wages subsidy is a very dangerous path for this Committee to embark on.
    That was the view of the Tomlinson Committee in 1944 and of the Piercy Committee in 1956. The hon. Member for Essex, South-East asked whether the views which I express now are the views of the National Advisory Committee on the Employment of the Disabled. That Committee's view, before and after Selective Employment Tax, is that the interests of the registered disabled man are best served by integrating him into society rather than by subsidising him in order that that integration comes about in an artificial way. Those arguments are more important than the administrative arguments and the cost of £9 million in a full year. My Ministry rejects the conception of an employment subsidy for reasons which we believe primarily are to do with the welfare and long-term interests ot the registered disabled man.
    1348
    If the figures were to show that S.E.T. or anything else had brought about such a deterioration, that there was a need for a radical review and to chance all the disadvantages and dangers which I have outlined in terms of a disablement employment subsidy, that might be the occasion to look again at the entire principle. But the employment position for the registered disabled, which has improved over the last two months, does not, in our view, justify taking the risks involved in allowing a special employment subsidy to be associated with disabled people in part of the economy.
    Mr. R. C. Mitchell: My hon. Friend has compared the 41 per cent. increase in unemployment among the registered disabled in the service industries with 117 per cent., which I understand relates to the total insured population in all industries. What is the equivalent figure for the total insured people in the service industries?
    Mr. Hattersley: It is rather more than the figure in the manufacturing industries. I gave an Answer in the House on this matter on Monday afternoon. I think that the ratio is about 5½ to 4½. The split for the registered disabled is 41 per cent. to 38 per cent. and, within rough tolerances, that figure holds good for the total employed population.
    May I turn to the problems of the elderly as embodied in the principal Amendment and the supporting Amendment? We were asked if we would put into perspective the numbers of elderly people whose position might be improved by acceptance of the two Amendments. There are 850,000 men and women over minimum retirement age who work for more than eight hours a week. Of those, 425,000 are in premium or neutral industries and 100,000 workers work part-time and therefore will obtain benefit from the Clause as it stands. Under Amendment No. 31, 325,000 elderly people would receive an employment subsidy. Clearly the figures in respect of Amendment No. 33 are substantially greater.
    There are 4 million men and 1¾ to 2 million women over 50 years of age who work, and accordingly pay the Class I contributions of the Ministry of Social Security. Two million are in

    1349
    non-refund categories and 70,000 in part-time work. Therefore, Amendment No. 33 would affect only 1,300,000 people. If Amendment No. 31 were accepted, the cost would be £14 million in a full year, and if Amendment No. 33 were accepted it would be £84 million in a full year out of the total net revenue of £195 million—almost half the total revenue of the tax. That is on the assumption which I understand is supported by the mover of the Amendment that the Clause would be further amended so that the refund would be not 50 but 100 per cent.
    Despite the substantial arguments against the Amendments in terms of cost to the Exchequer and in terms of the administrative difficulty, the main reason why I urge the Committee to reject them is neither administrative nor financial. It is, again, the undesirability of picking out a section of the working population for a special wages subsidy.
    6.15 p.m.
    Mr. Pardoe: Is the hon. Gentleman denying that this is a selective employment tax? We on this side have been attacking the tax because it is selective.
    Mr. Hattersley: Of course I am not. In the halcyon days when I made speeches from three benches back, I made a speech on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill and said that the beauty of the tax was that it was selective. But the Government have chosen, rightly, to make it selective in different terms. With the Committee's permission, they hope to make it selective in regional terms and between one form of industry and another. But they have never chosen to make it selective between one man and another working side by side at the same bench or in the same office. That seems to be a very dangerous thing to do. To make it selective between two men in the same office, with the age of 50 being the dividing line, would be not only a dangerous thing, but a fatuous thing to do.
    I do not subscribe to the view that people are too old to work at 50, and I hope that I shall not subscribe to that view in 17 years' time when I attain that age. It seems to me that there is an implied impertinence in suggesting that the employment of a man of that age should be or might be dependent on the provision of an employment subsidy. I do
    1350
    not believe that it is in the interests of elderly workers to say to employers, "We are demonstrating in the service industries that an employer can be expected to take on a man of 51 only if he receives a subsidy", but say to employers in manufacturing industry, "We want you to take on men of 51, but we will not give you a subsidy for their employment". This is a most dangerous argument.
    The Government are strongly in favour of the continued employment of the older workers. That is in the national interest and their personal interest. But what is suggested in the Amendments is not the way to do it. One way in which we hope to do it is through the relaxation in the earnings rule which became operative three days ago. There are other ways which should and must and will be put into operation in encouraging elderly workers to remain in employment. The regional employment premium will affect the elderly worker.
    One of the problems of the development areas is that a disproportionate share of our elderly people live in them. Therefore, if we are to attract larger amounts of work to the development areas, we must attract a larger amount of work for the elderly. But that is different from providing an almost individual employment subsidy for men or women because they reach the age of 50, according to one Amendment, or 60 or 65, according to another.
    I turn to something which is common to all three Amendments. Throughout the year we have continued to examine, as we promised we would, the employment prospects of the elderly and the registered disabled in terms of the Selective Employment Tax. Throughout the year we have received reports from our regional controllers and regional offices about how the employment prospects of those categories of people have been hindered or helped by the existence of that tax. We have not heard a word today, nor I suppose will we throughout the Committee stage, about those many elderly and registered disabled people who, according to the logic which we have heard from the benches opposite, have had their employment chances enhanced in the manufacturing sector.
    Our regional reports have shown that the Selective Employment Tax has not affected the employment chances of the

    1351
    disabled or the elderly who want to work and are prepared to work full time. But I gladly concede that it has affected the employment chances of both those categories of persons who wanted to work and who were able to work part time. That is one reason for the Clause. We accept that it will be of assistance to the registered disabled and the elderly who want to work for part of the working week. This is one of its fundamental justifications.
    I accept that entirely. It was urged on us last year by the Opposition, and equally urged on us by the Daily Telegraph on Wednesday. We concede that the advantages to the disabled and elderly are substantial in terms of getting a concession for part-time workers. But a special concession which is limited to those in the service industries, provided not for those in manufacturing industry but only for those in part of the national economy and related to their disability and their age, is not in the interests of the economy or in the interests of the categories whom, I freely acknowledge, the movers of the Amendment have this afternoon sought to help.
    Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Throughout his remarks, my hon. Friend has been referring to the application of an employment subsidy. Should he not have been referring to the removal of an employment disincentive?
    Mr. Hattersley: I regret that I have not taken my hon. Friend with me. The Government's case this afternoon is concerned entirely with the treatment of two men in the same establishment, offering a subsidy to one of them if he is disabled or elderly but no subsidy to the other if he is not. I cannot reiterate too strongly that it is the Government's strong belief that this is not in the interests of the disabled themselves. That is essentially why we ask the Committee to reject the Amendments.
    Mr. F. A. Burden: My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) stated that he saw something ominous in the appearance at the Dispatch Box of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour. He assumed, quite rightly, that if the hon. Gentleman was called upon to answer
    1352
    the debate, we should get one of his usual "Noes".
    The hon. Gentleman has admitted that there has been a rise, and a quite considerable one, of 41 per cent. in unemployment among people who are totally disabled, but he said not one word of encouragement about it. All that he tried to do was to justify the rise and say that there had been higher increases in unemployment throughout the economy as a whole. That was not what we were told would happen when the Government took office.
    I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues on the Treasury Bench, and even from the back-bench Members of his own party who have spoken in the debate, what their attitude would have been had the words spoken this afternoon by the hon. Gentleman come from a Conservative or even a Liberal Minister. The hon. Gentleman would have been highly critical. He would have been on the back benches fulfilling the rôle that he regretted having lost when he moved to the Front Bench. He would have been "going to town" on the Government of the day for the action they had taken.
    The hon. Gentleman also made one or two extraordinary assumptions on which he was taken up by his hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch). He said that when fully trained, the incapacitated worker could earn on a par with workers who were not incapacitated. The area in which incapacitated workers can be trained, however, is highly restricted. As the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) so eloquently put it, people suffering from many diseases have no facilities for such training. Certainly, Remploy or any other institution which the Government may have for training or retraining does not serve those people.
    The Parliamentary Secretary then said that having trained those people for whom training is not available, or for whom, in many cases, the distances are too great to go for training, the need was to find them jobs. A few words earlier he had stated that what has really happened as a result of their policy is that the Government are not finding jobs for more people in this category. Indeed, the number of those who are unemployed is increasing. The hon. Gentleman was not, therefore, by his

    1353
    remarks holding out very much hope for those people.
    This is a social problem, and a very serious one. It would have become the hon. Gentleman much better if, instead of trying to justify the rise in the number of unemployed in this category, he had offered sympathy. Throughout the whole of his speech, there was not one word of sympathy for those people. There was not one word of hope for them. What these people need is hope and help. Certainly, there was no indication whatever from the hon. Gentleman's speech that they would receive either of these from the Government.
    I was very pleased to see how the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), from the Liberal benches, took up the Parliamentary Secretary when he seemed to imply that the Selective Employment Tax was not selective. What the Parliamentary Secretary meant was that it was selective in the way that the Government want to manoeuvre it for their convenience at the time. Indeed, as was pointed out earlier, the Economic Secretary said last year that what is now contained in Clause 24 was impossible and could never be done. One year later, it is not only possible, but is achieved. Where is the consistency of the party opposite? There inconsistency can be expected in this matter as in so many other things.
    The terms of the Amendment are precise. After "person", it would insert
    "was a registered disabled person under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944".
    There is no great administrative difficulty in determining the people who are classified in that way because they are all medically classified. The Ministry knows the people who come within that classification. There is, therefore, no great difficulty there. I refer the Parliamentary Secretary particularly to the remarks of his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West, who illustrated some of the terrible difficulties, illnesses and diseases from which these people suffer. Quite apart from anything else, many of these people, because of their infirmities, with which some of them were born—I think of spastics and the like—are doomed to lead a very lonely and, in many instances, isolated life. They are, above all, people who in many cases suffer constant pain and depression.
    1354
    No matter what the problems, if the declarations about social conscience which are so often paraded by the party opposite mean anything at all they should help these people. It is clear that when people are in constant pain or are disabled or suffering loneliness because of their infirmities, the one thing above all which could help take away from them the terrible restrictions imposed upon them by their infirmities would be the ability to do a job which would keep them occupied and, at the same time, make them realise that they can live a useful life and be in contact with their fellow men, which otherwise would be denied to them.
    6.30 p.m.
    The attitude of the Government is disgraceful. Just as it was possible to do this year that which they said was impossible last year, it is possible for them to offer some hope that legislation can be introduced to deal with these circumstances, if not today, in the very near future.
    The same arguments apply to women over 60 and men over 65. We know of the desire of many men over 65 who have retired or women over 60 to return to employment because of loneliness. Such women may have been widowed or, in the case of men, their wives have died, and they want to get away from the awful boredom which in many cases brings them to a premature grave in circumstances of terrible loneliness.
    I hope that, in replying to this debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) will castigate the Government on this matter. They should be castigated. I shall have the utmost pleasure in supporting my hon. Friends, and I hope that we shall carry with us some hon. Gentlemen opposite who feel equally strongly.
    Dr. Winstanley: We are all aware of the Parliamentary Secretary's enthusiasim for the general provisions of the Selective Employment tax, and we recall the speech he made from the back benches during the Second Reading debate a year ago. Indeed, we could hardly forget it, since it was the only speech in support of the Measure from the back benches opposite.
    I wish to correct him on one or two points which he made and which could

    1355
    be seriously damaging to the interests of the disabled. I agree that none of these Amendments may be the right way to deal with the situation. It is a situation which should never have arisen.
    We have had a valuable discussion drawing attention to some special problems for the disabled, but its value will disappear if we do not correct some of the impressions left with us by the hon. Gentleman. He based the Government's case on their objection to some kind of open financial discrimination as between one worker and another. However, he ought to come down to earth and remember that there is already open discrimination, although in another way, and necessarily so.
    When one asks an employer to accept a registered disabled person, in many cases he has to introduce special facilities for that employee which are manifest for all to see. It may be that he cannot climb. It may be that he has to sit down at his work, whereas everyone else on the bench is standing up. It may be that he has an ulcer and has to take a glass of milk every hour or two. It may be that he cannot work shifts, whereas his colleagues can. However, he does not feel that he is being discriminated against. Let us put an end to the idea that there is something disagreeable or disgraceful in doing something special for one class of people which we do not do for others. The Government should not base their argument on that sort of attitude.
    The hon. Gentleman referred to the difference between service and manufacturing industries. If he inquires, he will find that, on the whole, the registered disabled persons employed in manufacturing are those less substantially disabled than those employed in service industries. Generally speaking, that will be found to be true in factories and manufacturing industries. Certainly it is true in my area. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into the position and, if he finds what I say to be true, I ask him to make the necessary deductions.
    He is right when he says that the total figures may be misleading and that the global figures of disabled have been under-assessed. There are many people who do not like to be registered. However, at the opposite end, there are others
    1356
    who are not registered and who are crucial to the argument. The criteria adopted for putting a person on the Register of Disabled Persons are that, first, they have to be capable of some form of regular remunerative employment and, second, they have to be substantially handicapped in obtaining or keeping employment in competition with people who are not disabled—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. We are not discussing who should or who should not be on the Register of Disabled Persons. We are discussing whether those who are should be entitled to the benefit of this Amendment.
    Dr. Winstanley: With respect, Mr. Steele, one of the reasons advanced by the Parliamentary Secretary for not accepting the Amendment was that he could not say effectively which people should be covered by the Clause. I am endeavouring to explain to him that there are others in addition to those whom he mentioned. Many people who are out of employment—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. We are not discussing who should or should not be on the register. We are discussing whether, according to the Amendment, those on the register should be entitled to the benefit of the Amendment.
    Dr. Winstanley: I am grateful to you for that Ruling, Mr. Steele. As you have rightly reminded us, we are discussing whether persons on the register should be in receipt of this special provision. Arguments have been advanced by the Parliamentary Secretary to say that they should not. In countering those arguments, I say that the problem is larger than he thinks. When a person is off work, his doctor has to decide whether he receives a certificate—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is now trying to pursue the same argument by a different method.
    Dr. Winstanley: Mr. Steele, since apparently, it is out of order to answer a statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary earlier in the discussion, I will not pursue it. I say merely that I hope that his statement will not be recollected, because it would be misleading in further

    1357
    discussions which we may have on the subject.
    Mr. Hale: I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if, briefly, I point out to him that one of the real defects of democracy is that one has to proceed at the speed of the slowest ship in the convoy. It is a defect when we see dictarorships everywhere, because we deal with matters in a democratic way. If the people of Oldham, in their infinite wisdom, elect a half-baked sentimentalist to represent them instead of a bearded economist, and go on returning him with an increasing majority for 20 years so that a seat which at one time was scheduled unsafe and needing special financial support was until recently scheduled safe, he must do his best to explain his case. I may say that he did it very well, and I congratulate him on an able speech in defence of an argument which, basically, is untenable. But he must do his best to explain. But for the fact that it is already 6.30 and I do not eat lunch, I might have pursued the argument further. I will not accompany the hon. Gentleman into the Lobby, because my mind is exercised enough about next Tuesday, without dropping any blots on the copybook today.
    Basically, the argument was with the hon. Gentleman on the impracticability of making piecemeal Amendments to a singularly bad tax. The remedy is to repeal it, which I have favoured since the Budget. Five hundred brilliant economists said that it was a brilliant conception; I said it was barmy, and gradually the argument is passing in my direction.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: I must apologise to the Parliamentary Secretary for having assumed in my opening speech that the Chief Secretary would reply, though I do not know that I would have been more optimistic if I had been right.
    The hon. Gentleman should apologise, I think, for the thinness of his argument, although we all admire his skill in deploying it. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) had the real answer. Little tinkering can be done with a ludicrous tax which would not be administratively complicated and still leave it ludicrous. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words, which I
    1358
    heartily reciprocate, in a non-party-political sense.
    If the Parliamentary Secretary really believes that it will damage or annoy or upset the disabled or the people of retirement age who are seeking to remain in work to relieve their employers of a tax which most employers regard as iniquitous anyway, he will believe anything. He did not deal with most of the arguments. Some of my intended remarks were made by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley).
    It is obvious from his second speech as much as from his first that the Parliamentary Secretary, in quoting the global and comparative figures in percentages, was entirely ignoring a fact which is obvious to us, that, although this is not so much a question of quantity, it is very much one of quality. It is just these people who are in the weakest position who need the extra protection of the Amendment. I was grateful for the support of the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch.) That such a known expert should support our argument shows that we are right and that such a keen Government supporter should do so shows that it has no party political bias.
    The Parliamentary Secretary's arguments on selectivity made nonsense not only of his speech but of most of the Government's policy. The idea that a tax could not be selective as between one person and another and that it is wrong to treat people working side by side differently is quite contrary to the practice not only of this Government but of successive Governments. It denies that there should be any special treatment for the disabled or people of pensionable age; it denies the principle of special Income Tax allowances for people of pensionable age, whether working or not; it denies that one should discriminate in the tax system at all between those who are disabled and those who are not; and it would make absolute nonsense of any ideas of the Minister of Social Security about bringing forward proposals for a disablement income.
    We ask that discrimination should be removed. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the principle of the Amendment was a subsidy for service industries. This use of words, in itself, is as selective as Humpty Dumpty ever was. We are

    1359
    not suggesting that there should be a subsidy, but that a liability should be removed from full-time as well as from part-time workers. The principle is of not penalising those people of retirement age and the disabled, whether or not they are part-time workers, or of extending the protection given by successive Governments to full-time workers.
    The Parliamentary Secretary showed some haste at the end of his speech which acknowledged that the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) might be in pocket and that we have some hope of getting this Measure next year, if not this year. But we do not base our argument only on the hope of getting a concession but on the help for the disabled which every Government up to now have carried out.
    The argument is not only that the Selective Employment Tax has decreased these
    people's chances of getting work, but that it does not increase the chances, in the way that all legislation and administration has up to now, in favour of the disabled. This tax is not the only or the main factor in the disabled and the old not being able to get work. One of the major factors might be the lack of work, training, training schemes and facilities, and job opportunities—in fact, the general lack of expansion in our economy.
    It is in this context that we are asking for special help for these people, but we appear to have asked in vain, so I must ask the Committee to vote for the Amendment and hope that we can, if not demonstrate our success, at least give some prospect of history repeating itself and of having it next year.
    Question put, That those words be there inserted:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 119, Noes 159.

    Division No. 354.]

    AYES

    6.49 p.m.

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.w.)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Bessell, Peter

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Blaker, Peter

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Pardoe, John

    Body, Richard

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Braine, Bernard

    Hastings, Stephen

    Pym, Francis

    Brewis, John

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Hiley, Joseph

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Royle, Anthony

    Bryan, Paul

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Holland, Philip

    Scott, Nicholas

    Bullue, Sir Eric

    Hordern, Peter

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Burden, F. A.

    Hornby, Richard

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Campbell, Gordon

    Hunt, John

    Stodart, Anthony

    Clark, Henry

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Corfield, F. V.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Tapsell, Peter

    Costain, A. P.

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Taylor, Edward M. (C'gow, Cathcart)

    Crouch, David

    Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

    Temple, John M.

    Crowder, F. P.

    Kimball, Marcus

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

    Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.)

    Kirk, Peter

    Tilney, John

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Kitson, Timothy

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Doughty, Charles

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Drayton, G. B.

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Walters, Dennis

    Eden, Sir John

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Webster, David

    Eyre, Reginald

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Fisher, Nigel

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

    Fortescue, Tim

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Worsley, Marcus

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    More, Jasper

    Wright, Esmond

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Wylie, N. R.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Younger, Hn. George

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Nott, John

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Gurden, Harold

    Onslow, Cranley

    Mr. Anthony Grant and

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Mr. Hector Munro.

    NOES

    Anderson, Donald

    Barnett, Joel

    Blackburn, F.

    Archer, Peter

    Beaney, Alan

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Booth, Albert

    Boston, Terence

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Norwood, Christopher

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Hooley, Frank

    Ogden, Eric

    Bradley, Tom

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    O'Malley, Brian

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Oram, Albert E.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Huckfield, L.

    Orme, Stanley

    Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

    Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)

    Padley, Walter

    Chapman, Donald

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

    Coleman, Donald

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Concannon, J. D.

    Hunter, Adam

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Pentland, Norman

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, s.)

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Darling, Rt. Hn. George

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn, Roy (Stechford)

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Dewar, Donald

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Rankin, John

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Richard, Ivor

    Dickens, James

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Doig, Peter

    Judd, Frank

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Kelley, Richard

    Roebuck, Roy

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Rose, Paul

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Eadie, Alex

    Lawson, George

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Ellis, John

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

    Ensor, David

    Ledger, Ron

    Shore, Peter (Stepney)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Slater, Joseph

    Faulds, Andrew

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Small, William

    Fernyhough, E.

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Snow, Julian

    Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

    Luard, Evan

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Swingter, Stephen

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Symonds, J. B.

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    McBride, Neil

    Tinn, James

    Ford, Ben

    MacColl, James

    Varley, Eric G.

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    MacDermot Niall

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Freeson, Reginald

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Gardner, Tony

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Wallace, George

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Mackie, John

    Weitzman, David

    Gregory, Arnold

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Wellbeloved, James

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Wells, William (walsall, N.)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Whitaker, Ben

    Hate, Leslie (Oldham, w.)

    Mendeleon, J. J.

    Whitlock William

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Millan, Bruce

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Harper, Joseph

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

    Winnlck, David

    Hattersley, Roy

    Moorman, Eric

    Wyatt, Woodrow

    Hazell, Bert

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Mr. Charles R. Morris and

    Henig, Stanley

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Mr. William Howie.

    Hilton, W. S.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I beg to move Amendment No. 32, in line 31, to leave out 'half'.
    Last year the announcement of the Selective Employment Tax aroused what I can only describe as a deafening chorus of protests, two of which rang through the clamour with particular penetration. The first was charities and the second was the plight of part-time workers.
    After some attempted defence by the Chief Secretary in respect of charities, the Government bowed to the storm and agreed that charities should come into the refund category. However, they refused steadfastly and utterly to move in any direction to meet the demand for a concession for part-time employees. The Government argued that there was no practical way by which such a concession could be given. The Financial Secretary said:
    1362
    "I must tell the Committee that we are able to find no practical way whatever of devising a refund system on the basis of part timers."
    We were then debating the Selective Employment Payments Bill in Committee. He went on to explain briefly why he was making that statement. One of the reasons, he said, was because there was no way of policing any system of refunds. He said:
    "We would be in the position of paying out enormous sums of public money entirely on trust, without any practical means of verification."
    Later he said:
    "… it will require a fairly considerable alteration to the National Insurance system so that we can devise a mechanism by which we could make a separate category of part-time workers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th July, 1966; Vol. 732, cc. 807–8.]
    The Government argued that the case was a bad one and that the remedies were

    1363
    impossible. That was last year. Now we are assaulted by what is coming to be recognised as a familiar noise from the Treasury Bench—what I can only describe as the subdued rumble of Her Majesty's Ministers munching their words. For example, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget statement:
    "I have, therefore, decided to relieve employers of part-time labour, employed in establishments not at present entitled to premia or refund, by refunding one-half of the tax payable in respect of adult employees who normally work less than 21 hours a week. This will help retail distribution as well as the tourist and hotel trades. The Ministry of Social Security will operate the refund scheme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1967; Vol. 744, c. 1008.]
    It now appears that there is a case after all. The Opposition were right. A refund system can be operated without all the hideous difficulties the Financial Secretary persuaded the Committee last year were so insuperable. Furthermore, it will not require a fairly considerable alteration in the National Insurance system—in fact, it will not require an alteration of the system at all. The Government cannot in future expect the Committee or the country to accept these protestations of impossibility when one can see such stark, absolutely unqualified statements as were made last year so swiftly shown to be nonsense.
    7.0 p.m.
    I do not want to suggest that we are in any way ungrateful for the fact that the Government have found a way round—because some modicum of improvement this Clause certainly is, and we welcome it as such—but it is right that we should examine the evidence as to why the Government have felt it necessary to make this change, and to see whether or not one should draw from it the conclusion that the change has gone far enough, or that what is needed is not to refund merely half of the tax in respect of part-timers but to refund it in toto.
    There can be little doubt that the piece of evidence that has weighed more heavily with the Government than any other was the pungent and powerful report of the economic development committee for the distributive trades. It is a plain fact, and I do not suppose for one moment that the Chief Secretary will seek to deny
    1364
    it, that the report has confirmed, fairly and starkly, every forecast which we from these benches made—and, I give credit where credit is due, though they are not in their place, the Liberal Members who joined us—about the effect that the Selective Employment Tax would have on part-time employment in the service industries.
    It is worth examining this report, because it is by far the most convincing and comprehensive document we have on the impact of this tax on this kind of trade. Paragraph I states:
    "In May. 1966, the Economic Development Committee"—
    this is very soon after the tax was announced:
    "for the Distributive Trades set up a working party to suggest ways and means of overcoming the administrative problems that would be involved in exempting"—
    and I emphasise the word "exempting":
    "insured part-time workers from the selective employment tax, and to examine the administrative implications of exempting those performing the wholesale function from the tax."
    I shall come to the problem of the wholesalers in a moment.
    This was a very wide-ranging survey. The E.D.C. consulted over 40 organisations in the distributive trades, covering nearly one-third of a million workers. It described its survey as being
    "… as comprehensive a cross-section of the distributive trades as a whole as could be obtained in the time available."
    The report is, therefore, a responsible report. It is authoritative and impartial. The E.D.C. examined, in terms of employment policies, what the firms in the industries concerned were actually having to do to react to the Selective Employment Tax, and I propose to read out, very briefly, the five principal measures that a substantial number of employers were found to have taken.
    By way of introduction to this aspect, the report states:
    "Over half of the organisations concerned reported that some changes have had to be made in employment policies, conditions and hours of work, or methods of operation. In over 90 per cent. of these instances the changes were brought wholly or partly by the introduction of the SET."
    What were these changes? Before enumerating them, I emphasise that each and every one of them was forecast from

    1365
    these benches—and even from this Dispatch Box—last year. They were:
    "… i. to reduce the actual number of part-time employees;
    ii. to try to get part-time employees to work either fewer than eight hours a week than they had previously done in order to reduce the number of part-timers employed;
    iii. to cease to employ the older part-time workers"—
    and I am sorry that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is no longer in his place to be reminded of that one:
    "iv. to increase the number of full-time employees to replace the part-time employees …
    v. to try to cover the work done by former part-time employees, by requiring existing full-time staff to work longer hours."
    Those were the five main reactions which employers in this industry found themselves having to take in order to cope with the problems thrown up by the Selective Employment Tax.
    It is as well to remind the Committee of what the Financial Secretary told us last year when the Selective Payments Bill was in Committee. He referred to the Opposition's arguments, and said that they were based on the assumption
    "… that because employers have to pay this tax they will start to dismiss their part-timers. They will not"—
    said the Financial Secretary:
    "because they will need the employment of these people just as they need it now."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th July, 1966; Vol. 732. c. 805.]
    The report of the E.D.C. for the distributive trades referred to a reduction in the actual number of part-time employees. Condemned utterly by events the Government's words are there seen to be.
    Perhaps I might compare that statement also with the summary of the report. It is a brief paragraph that I should like to read in full, because it emphasises what a severe impact the tax has had on part-time employees in the service trades. Under the heading "Recommendations", paragraph 14 states:
    "The working party's inquiries have confirmed that so far as the distributive tiades are concerned, the selective employment tax falls disproportionately heavily on the employment of part-time workers, and that the effect of this is causing employers to get rid of part-time workers and to employ or seek to employ full-time workers to take their place. The EDC does not think this
    1366
    is intended by those who devised the tax and the effect it is causing is contrary to the employment pattern which the Government.management and trades unions represented on the EDC wish to promote in the long-term interest of the industry and the economy as a whole."
    What a sad memorial for the Selective Employment Tax so soon after its introduction. The simple fact is that the Government were proved wrong—completely, utterly and disastrously wrong. The tax has been responsible for a considerable dislocation of trade and for hardship to individuals—for the part-timers who have found themselves, as a result of the tax, on the dole and looking for work.
    These facts should have become apparent to the Government last year—they were warned. But they should have become apparent even earlier than they did. It was interesting to hear the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the debate we have just had saying that the tax had had no effect on the disabled. I have no doubt that in the absence of such a report as this on the distributive trades one would have had exactly the same argument used against this Amendment. The fact is that the Government just do not know the effect of the tax on the various industries it affects.
    On 13th February last, in a Question for Written Answer, my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) asked the Minister of Labour
    "… what evidence he now has that the imposition of Selective Employment Tax is having the effect of shaking out labour from service into manufacturing industries."
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour replied:
    "It is not possible, so soon after the inception of the tax. to make a precise distinction between the effects of S.E.T. and the results of other items of Government economic policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February. 1967; Vol. 741, c. 11.]
    Perhaps in February that was not unreasonable. The refund had only just begun in manufacturing industry. The tax had been paid only for a few months. But those words of the Parliamentary Secretary were echoed like a refrain through Answer after Answer in succeeding months until only last month the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) asked exactly the same

    1367
    Question. He asked the Ministry of Labour:
    "whether he is satisfied that the objectives of the Selective Employment Tax on moving workers from service industries into production industries have proved successful; and what are the numbers of works who have changed their employment from service to productive industry as a result of the operation of the tax."
    The Parliamentary Secretary, months after the Answer to which I referred earlier, replied:
    "I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) on Monday, 13th February."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 204–5.]
    Yet here was a tax which, in the words of the Government's White Paper, a considered statement of the objective of the tax:
    "will have a beneficial longer-term effect by encouraging economy in the use of labour in services and thereby making more labour available for the expansion of manufacturing industry."
    The Government first denied that it would have an effect on employment in service industries. Then they said they could not say whether it would have an effect or not. Now they grudgingly admit that it seems to be having an effect. This is a sorry tale of muddle and mismanagement. Clause 19 goes part of the way to remedying the evils experienced in the last few months but it does not go nearly far enough. This is the unfortunate trend, this dismissal of part-time employees and their replacement by full-time employees, many of whom have come from the manufacturing industries. They have been shaken out of manufacturing industry as a result of the July measures of last year. If these part-timers are to be restored to employment their employers must be wholly exempt in respect of them.
    We stand firmly by what the Economist wrote on 25th March:
    "The effect of S.E.T. so far has been to make it unprofitable to employ large numbers of part-time people and to leave employers to fight all the harder over the limited pool of full-time ones. As a matter of urgency the Chancellor should exempt from the S.E.T. system altogether anybody who works less than 21 hours a week, anybody who is over the age of 65, plus the blind, the handicapped and the disabled."
    The Government have shown what they are prepared to do for the disabled— simply nothing. I hope that they will
    1368
    take a more sympathetic view of the problem of part-timers where—the evidence cannot be controverted—Selective Employment Tax is having a damaging effect on employment prospects.
    I will illustrate and reinforce the case in relation to two particular industries which, on statistics, employ a higher than average number of part-time employees. It so happens that I referred to both these industries in the debate on part-time employees last year when I was speaking from a back bench. I make no excuse for returning to them now because the case for examination of this problem is stronger now than it was then.
    The two industries are warehousing as it affects the independent wholesaler, and laundries and dry cleaners. Warehouses are now suffering, as they were not suffering last year, from an added disability as a result of Selective Employment Tax. Originally when the tax was introduced the Ministry of Labour indicated that warehouses of all sorts, whether belonging to manufacturers or independent wholesalers, were to be treated as service establishments. All were to be regarded as paying the tax and eligible neither for refund nor premium.
    7.15 p.m.
    This was notified to the industry by a letter sent by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in July, 1966. On 7th November the Ministry of Labour, as apparently it has power to do, by a simple act of ministerial dictat—simply by issuing a directive to its officers throughout' the country—directed that warehouses which were part of manufacturing establishments should be treated as manufacturing establishments however many miles they may be from the manufacturing premises. They were to be regarded as eligible for refund and premium, thus leaving the independent wholesaler out in the cold with no premium or refund. This reinforces the case, this unfair discrimination and competition, for granting complete exemption from employment tax for part-time employees.
    This situation gave rise to strong and well justified protests on the part of the wholesaling trade. One of them was quoted in an article in the Sunday Times of 11th December. Frank Walters, chairman of Doncaster's Yorkshire Factoring,

    1369
    the third largest motor factor in the country, was reported as saying:
    "Quite honestly, one can see neither justice nor any reason of national policy, except perhaps administrative convenience, for this decision."
    His S.E.T. bill is £30,000. If his firm were part of a manufacturing complex he would receive £5,000 to £8,000.
    I raised this matter at Question Time on 12th December. I asked why this had been done and what protests the Ministry had received. The then Parliamentary Secretary, now Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, explaining from whom there had been protests, said:
    "the separate storage establishments of a manufacturing firm are classified to the same heading of the Standard Industrial Classification as its manufacturing establishments and will therefore, provided they satisfy the conditions relating to non-qualifying activities, qualify for refund of Tax plus premium."
    I asked:
    "Why did the Minister change his view … is not this taxation by Ministerial dictat, and is it not grossly unfail …."
    The hon. Lady replied, somewhat surprisingly:
    "The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that there was no public statement to industry on the original view, and that it was not the case that the Ministry made it clear that it wished to consider in detail this problem, which is a technical one."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1966; Vol. 737, c. 23.]
    That was slightly less than frank because, in a letter to retail organisations, the Minister said that he had indicated to the C.B.I, that manufacturers' warehouses would be under the same heading and he had transferred them from one heading in the Standard Industrial Classification to another.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) pressed the matter on 20th February and got no change out of the Government. Manufacturing wholesalers who employ a larger number of employees are able to compete unfairly with independent wholesalers. This is unfair competition of the worst kind. One can understand how readily and rightly this has given rise to righteous indignation. Some of those to whom I have talked about this matter have been reduced to an almost
    1370
    impotent fury, because there is nothing whatever that they can do about it.
    I hope that this will be put right, perhaps by a return to the previous practice, or possibly by enabling wholesalers' storage establishments to qualify for the refund of premium. If that cannot be done, at least the Government can go part of the way and accept the Amendment, which would have the effect of exempting these wholesalers' part-time employees from the Selective Employment Tax.
    The second Report is that relating to laundries and dry cleaners, which employ an even higher proportion of part-timers. This industry has had a very raw deal. It is increasingly facing competition from the housewife with her own washing machine. It is facing competition from laundromats and launderettes. It has lost the investment allowances, to which it was entitled. It has failed to qualify for the new investment grants. Now it has suffered the Selective Employment Tax. As a crowning blow, it was referred to the "Jones" Board for, in the face of all this, putting up its prices.
    The laundry industry has been hit very hard by the Selective Employment Tax. Many hon. Members have been approached by laundries and dry cleaners operating in their constituencies complaining of the conditions in which they now have to operate—rising costs, a static or falling turnover, and a slashed profit margin. In all these things the Selective Employment Tax, particularly the Selective Employment Tax on the part-timer, has played a major part. This was adverted to by the "Jones" Report, by which I mean Report No. 20 from the National Board for Prices and Incomes.
    The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Sydney Irving): I think that the hon. Gentleman is out of order in referring to laundries on this Amendment. He is referring to an Amendment which has not been selected.
    Mr. Jenldn: The quotation which I am about to make to the Committee will show the relevance of this case to the Amendment which we are discussing. On page 17 of Report No. 20 from the National Board for Prices and Incomes, relating

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    to Laundry and Dry Cleaning Charges, there is this passage:
    "Clearly, the ability of different establishments to use labour more economically will differ; the increase in gross costs resulting from the tax will also differ for different establishments, the increase being greatest for establishments employing a high proportion of part-time workers."
    The Report had earlier indicated that launderers and dry cleaners employ a high proportion of part-timers. The least that the Government can do to relieve these hard pressed industries is to exempt part-timers altogether from the effects of the Selective Employment Tax.
    It would be possible to indicate the impact of S.E.T. on part-time employment in many other trades—particularly the tourist trade—but I will not weary the Committee further. I shall be very happy to leave my hon. Friends who represent constituencies where the tourist industry is a major one to deal with the effects of the tax on the tourist industry.
    I have already quoted the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour as saying that the Government are unable to disentangle the effect of the Selective Employment Tax from all the other measures which the Government have taken. Yet there are thousands upon thousands of businesses throughout the country which could tell the hon. Gentleman only too clearly, just as clearly as the Economic Development Committee for the Distributive Trades has told him, that the tax is having a damaging effect on their businesses.
    This tax has been condemned with a unanimity and a virulence of language which must have shocked even this impervious Government. The whole range of the Press has challenged the logic of the tax and has derided its ludricous anomalies. The comments of practical men in commerce have been no less pungent.
    In an article on the effect of the Selective Employment Tax on the distributive and other trades, an eminent journalist, Anthony Harris, in the Financial Times on 25th January gave a couple of quotations from people in the distributive trade. The general manager of a supermarket chain is reported as saying this:
    "We decided to take S.E.T. into our wages budget. It meant dropping some staff: that means longer queues at the check-outs and
    1372
    empty gaps on our shelves which take longer to fill."
    The personnel manager of a department store—I hope that the Chief Secretary will listen to this—is quoted to this effect:
    "We persuaded a lot of our part-timers to go one week on, one week off instead of three days a week. That halves our S.E.T., and the odd weeks they sign on as temporarily unemployed."
    That is the sort of miserable nonsense to which the Government have driven perfectly respectable trades. For this the Government should be heartily ashamed of themselves. I have already quoted the Report of the Economic Development Committee for the Distributive Trades. That is a documentary critique of the whole tax. It strikes at the whole economic theory.
    We have already indicated from these Benches and from this Dispatch Box that the Conservative Government will repeal this tax when we get back. It is a silly, damaging impost.
    The Deputy Chairman: The hon. Gentleman is going much too wide of the Amendment. He is now on a general debate about the tax, which is not in order on the Amendment.
    Mr. Jenkin: My last words were going to be these: but, if the Government are not prepared to repeal it, at least they can improve some of its most damaging anomalies, of which its incidence on the part-time employee is one. We believe firmly that the part-time employee should be wholly exempt from this tax. That is what the Amendment would achieve. I commend it to the Committee.
    Mr. Norman Miscampbell: I accept with alacrity the invitation of my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) to deal with the problems of the tourist industry, because the tourist industry is a major constituent industry in Blackpool. Blackpool is almost entirely a service town.
    One can hardly think of an industry which is not in some way affected by this tax. When considering the incidence of the tax upon part-timers, it should be realised that Blackpool suffers unemployment in the winter at the rate of 8 per cent. and there is no alternative employment within 20 miles. The declared

    1373
    object of the tax, which was to shake people out from the service industries, would appear to be nullified.
    The question of part-timers in the tourist industry was argued with force a year ago. It is pleasant to know, from what the Government are saying today, that we were at least half right. We assert that the incidence of this tax on part-timers in the tourist industry should be removed.
    I want to deal, not with large hotels, although they, too, employ part-timers, but with the traditional, and now rapidly improving, small hotels and boarding houses which provide, for literally millions of working people in Lancashire and the north of England, happy holidays, not only in my constituency, but in other Lancashire resorts and in resorts elsewhere. These holiday makers come to typical boarding houses which are often run by the family, helped by part-timers, who are, and who have to be, brought in, often in quite large numbers, to keep the hotel or boarding house going through the busy season.
    Nowadays the decision facing holiday makers is not whether to go to Blackpool, or to Lytham St. Annes, or to Skegness, or to Butlins.
    Mr. David Webster: Or to Weston-super-Mare.
    Mr. Miseampbell: Yes, or to Weston-super-Mare. Nowadays the real challenge to our resorts and the deciding factor as to whether we keep them going to provide the holidays which they have traditionally provided is the Costa Brava. If the cost of the employment of part-timers in the tourist industry rises, the cost to the country in foreign currency may well be high. Small boarding houses employing three or four part-timers, some of whom come in in the morning and some of whom come in in the evening, face a very great increase in their costs, because of this tax and for other reasons. This tax is increasing the cost of holidays in our traditional resorts, so that many people will choose to take a package holiday abroad at prices which are now very comparable to what must be charged at home. If employers of part-timers in the catering industry, in parks, in entertainment, and in small hotels, could be relieved of all payments of S.E.T., this would go some way to-
    1374
    wards alleviating the steadily increasing costs we have to meet in providing holidays at home.
    I turn from an industry to something which must be entirely a service but which towns such as Blackpool unfortunately must provide in large numbers. Seaside resorts are not merely places where people enjoy their holidays. They are places to which people retire. Retired people live in their bungalows, small houses, or flats, where they set up their last home. But the time comes when they must go into nursing homes and be looked after, because their families are either not able to look after them or not near enough to do so.
    7.30 p.m.
    The typical small nursing home in Blackpool—I imagine that it is the same in many other retirement areas—is run by one or two full-timers, perhaps one full-time nurse and one or two other people working full time. But the hard grinding work of looking after the elderly people in these cheap nursing homes all over the town—they are cheap, and they are very good—is done largely by part-timers.
    These part-timers will, for example, come in and make breakfast in the morning, perhaps help to get the patients up and make the beds, and so on. Then they go away to their families for a time, having lunch at home, and then they will come in again in the evening. Various arrangements are possible, but that is a typical example. The essential point is that, without the help of these part-timers, it would simply not be possible to run these homes. The people are old and they are not really geriatric cases, but they are coming to the end of their days and they need special assistance and care. These homes must be provided because it is not possible to provide the same succour and help within their own families.
    Yet these nursing homes, providing a last refuge for elderly people, for 13 or 14 guineas a week, which is really cheap nowadays, are being taxed, at the full rate so far and, as now proposed in the Bill, at half rate for part-time workers. This is a matter of sheer humanity. Unquestionably, this is one of the points on which the Government should change their mind and say that workers who

    1375
    come in to help in these circumstances should not be subject to the tax. Plainly, they are not likely to move into manufacturing. They are not suited to it. In any case, they are doing a job which is needed by the community, a service to the community, a service which our present social structure and pattern of family life cannot, in large measure, supply. On humanitarian grounds alone, apart from economic grounds—though the case is made on both—the Government should change their mind.
    The need is great in areas such as mine where service industries predominate. The Government must change their mind on the question of part-time workers, and, may I add, Mr. Irving, although it is out of order, they should change their mind on the whole tax as well.
    Mr. A. P. Costain: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscamp-bell), I represent a seaside constituency. The Chief Secretary will have observed that all hon. Members on this side who are anxious to speak represent seaside constituencies, because this is a special problem for the seaside constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin), in moving the Amendment, spoke of the excuses which the Government gave last year for not agreeing to some refund. He completely shot away any argument which they could put forward now for their present half-hearted proposal to get them out of trouble.
    The problem has been dealt with thoroughly on the industrial side, and I shall direct attention to the personal side of it, the need for people to find employment. Just as there are elderly retired people who need help, there are elderly people living in areas such as mine who want work. They need to supplement their retirement pensions because of the added burdens which have come upon their personal and family budgets. Very often, these people have been employed on a marginal basis. Hotels and shops which wanted to maintain employment have kept them on, and, as they have grown older, these people have been kept on past the time at which they might have been dismissed because of their
    1376
    lower efficiency. But now, in many cases, the Selective Employment Tax has been the last straw.
    The Government propose to give half the tax back. What an extraordinary thing to do. If they really want to encourage the elderly and part-timers to work they should go the whole way. Are they frightened that the level of unemployment may rise so much that they ought not to encourage part-time work? Is that at the back of their minds, while, at the same time, they want to take credit for giving a concession?
    This half-hearted concession is not enough. It will not do enough to help our tourist trade from the point of view of, for example, service in our shops. I speak here as vice-chairman of the all-party Tourist Resorts Committee. I wish that we were able to develop this side of the question more fully, Mr. Irving, but you have been severe on the question of order and I shall not take it further. I just emphasise the need to give better service in our residential and retirement areas and better service to visitors. If we are to stop the exodus of people overseas, we must give better service in our hotels, boarding houses and shops.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond)indicated assent.
    Mr. Costain: I see the right hon. Gentleman nodding his head. Am I being too optimistic in thinking that he accepts that that should be done and that the Amendment is the way to do it? I shall sit down at once if that is so.
    Mr. Diamond: I willingly assented to the hon. Gentleman's proposition that hotels must give better service.
    Mr. Costain: This is the way to do it. The Government can help them to give better service by making it easier for them to employ people on a part-time basis.
    Dame Irene Ward: I have listened with great interest to the admirable speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) in moving the Amendment and to the speeches made in support of it. I always enjoy hearing the Treasury Bench torn to shreds. My hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford was very courteous in his choice of language. I should not have been nearly as polite as he was.

    1377
    Mine is a constituency with several interests, and I have a seaside resort interest, too, in Whitley Bay. Not only is Whitley Bay a very well known tourist resort but it is attracting more and more conferences, a great many of them being trade union conferences and the like. People want to come there for their conferences, quite apart from holidays, because they like and admire our part of the world. In addition, there is in Whitley Bay, as there is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell), an above average number of retired people. The Selective Employment Tax has been particularly hard on them and on part-timers.
    Although I wish to be restrained in my language, and I know that we do not as a rule, and quite rightly, say anything in the House about the advisers to the Government, I cannot help pointing out that all our protests and warnings about the effect of the Selective Employment Tax on part-time workers have been reinforced by events and proved correct. This makes me wonder what has happened to the advisers at the Treasury. This is an important question for the economy as a whole. I have been in the House a long time, and I realise that most of the briefs from which Ministers speak are not their own, because they really do not know anything about the subject on which they are speaking.
    The Deputy Chairman: Unless the hon. Lady is suggesting that the advisers should be part-timers, she is out of order in pursuing that matter.
    Dame Irene Ward: Perhaps I may take that up, Mr. Irving, and observe that one of the chief Treasury advisers was a part-timer. I need not mention him by name, but that was the fact. I have only just heard that another one, an adviser to the Prime Minister, who probably has advised him when this matter has come up for discussion in the Cabinet, has just retired from being a full-timer to a part-timer. I do not think that I can be more in order in referring to the part-timer.
    The Deputy Chairman: I am afraid that the hon. Lady is out of order, because the Government do not pay S.E.T. for their employees.
    Mr. Webster: My hon. Friend has shown the great anomaly between special advisers who are part-time workers for Prime Ministers and those who try to help us in our constituencies to make life a little more pleasant rather than a little more unpleasant.
    Dame Irene Ward: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention. Perhaps it would be a good idea if the Treasury were to employ part-timers who knew something about the tourist trade and the retail trades, all of which were covered in the important report to which my hon. Friend the Member for Wan-stead and Woodford referred. What emerges from all this is that the full-timers are not competent to advise on part-time employment.
    This raises another matter of great interest. It would be very much better if part-time people drawn from the ranks of those who know something about the tourist industry and about the retail trade—
    The Deputy Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but the Amendment refers to those part-timers for whom S.E.T. is paid, and I am afraid that she cannot discuss the matter which she is now raising.
    Dame Irene Ward: I may have to sit down now, but perhaps I may be able to raise the matter on the Question, That the Clause stand part. Surely I must be in order in questioning the Treasury brief and the advice that has been tendered?
    The Deputy Chairman: Let me help the hon. Lady. I do not want to restrict what she wants to say. As long as she makes a passing reference to this matter I think that it would be in order, but it must be only a passing reference.
    Dame Irene Ward: It will be only a passing reference, but I do not see how the Treasury Bench can make against our Amendment a case which has been prepared by full-time people. The Minister's speech cannot be in order, if he is going to oppose our proposal, because he must be speaking from a brief which has not been prepared by anybody for whom the Government pays S.E.T.
    One can argue things up and down dale from beginning to end. The Government have moved a step forward in

    1379
    helping part-time workers, and I hope that they will go a long way further by accepting the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentleman concerned have shaken my faith. Whether there are part-time workers or full-time workers in the Treasury, I could not care less, but the advice tendered to Her Majesty's Government by the Treasury has been very bad.
    I want to raise one other point about part-time workers and S.E.T. It concerns the railways. I suppose that the main part of the British Railways does not pay S.E.T. but the railways must pay S.E.T. at the hotels. I have a great admiration for British Railways hotels. I very much enjoy going to the Great Northern Hotel or the Royal Station Hotel in Newcastle, where we are very well served, sometimes by full-time and sometimes by part-time staff. They are very nice, they give a friendly welcome to tourists, and they do all sorts of things to help in the interests of the economy. When one receives one's bill one also gets a little thing which says that S.E.T. is being added on. I presume that that is in order. Nobody complains, because one gets very good service from the hotels and from the part-time workers.
    Mr. Burden: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this point. I can assure her that a great many people do complain. I had a letter from a constituent complaining that 2s. 6d. had been added on the bill at a railway hotel for S.E.T. I sent the complaint to the Minister of Transport, who said that British Railways were in order in charging that. But there is a great difference when it comes to private industry putting it on anything.
    7.45 p.m.
    Dame Irene Ward: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting my case for me. That was exactly what I was going to say. British Railways hotels can add S.E.T. and one presumes that they do it within the law, though one never knows whether the S.E.T. on the bill refers to part-time or full-time workers. As I have said, the railways hotels give a very good service.
    I want to impress on the Treasury Bench—if the people on it do not mind taking from me what I am trying to say,
    1380
    even though I think nothing of their brains—that if retail traders, small independent nursing homes, small hotels and boarding houses, who must employ many part-time workers, started adding to their account a special charge for S.E.T. what an outburst of criticism there would be, and rightly so! Does anybody imagine that those people sitting on the Treasury Bench would back up those who are trying to do a good service to the tourist industry and to the old people who must go to the nursing homes, and the retailers doing their best to serve in those areas and to do a good job for the consumer? The Treasury Bench would not be interested. But the people on it are only too delighted if a nationalised service finds a way out, as the British Railways hotels have done.
    The Deputy Chairman: The hon. Lady is far away from the Amendment. She is now discussing the question of whether a publicly-owned undertaking can put S.E.T. on the bill, as against what happens in other undertakings. But the Amendment is concerned with the payment of the rebate on S.E.T. for part-timers. I am afraid that she must return to the Amendment.
    Dame Irene Ward: You are being extremely nice, Mr. Irving, but I find it as frustrating as anybody else that in this great House of Commons I cannot speak my mind today. There has been great difficulty over a year, after advice was tendered from this side of the Committee about the problem of part-time workers and the application of S.E.T. to them, all of which was rejected by the Government.
    With great respect, I think that probably on these matters my sex gets a great deal more complaints than the people sitting on the Treasury Bench. There comes a time when one is nearly bursting with annoyance, and almost finds it impossible to say how stupid one thinks the Treasury Bench is. I shall be very glad to know who advised the Treasury Minister on this idiotic proposal, from which they must now retreat. They cannot retreat the whole way because they are rather like the Chinese; they must still save face. I regard this move as a sort of halfway-house concession. It is working on the Chinese philosophy, but the British do not work on the Chinese philosophy.

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    We want our Amendment accepted, and we think that that would be the only fair way of dealing with the matter. Those who have been subject to S.E.T. for one year as part-time workers deserve better treatment from this ridiculous Treasury influence on matters about which it knows nothing.
    Mr. Webster: My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) made a modest and moderate speech on a subject about which she feels deeply. There is nothing part-time about her. She argues her case with great conviction. She spoke with feeling and humanity, in reference not only to this Amendment but the last one, about the elderly and the infirm. This Amendment certainly deals with something which has a great deal of humanity involved in it. This is one of the reasons that, although my hon. Friend remained calm throughout her speech, her calmness was possibly a little less than usual.
    My hon. Friend spoke with vigour and compassion about a subject on which she feels very strongly. Selective Employment Tax is riddled with anomalies. I, too, have many hotels in my constituency, and it is notable that in this debate many seaside Members have spoken.
    Dame Irene Ward: On our side of the Committee.
    Mr. Webster: They have represented Whitley Bay, Folkestone, Blackpool and other resorts, and it is nice for a major resort like Weston-super-Mare to take part as well. It may be that we shall also be hearing about the problem as it afflicts Arbroath in Scotland.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth talked about railway hotels. One of the anomalies is that a privately owned hotel near Victoria Station has had to reduce service because of the S.E.T. It is impossible now to get room service unless one is an invalid. This is because of the tax and the difficulty of getting part-time people to come in and assist. Listening to her and to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell), it struck me—but not in the case of Folkestone—that so many resorts, like Weston-super-Mare, are areas of seasonal unemployment.
    Mr. Costain: I assure my hon. Friend that Folkestone has as much seasonal unemployment as Weston-super-Mare.
    Mr. Webster: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting me right. I thought that the prosperity in that part of the country was a little more constant than in the West Country and in the North. Many holiday resorts are areas of seasonal unemployment.
    This year already in the West Country we have had the great anxiety of the oil pollution from the "Torrey Canyon" and the Prime Minister's last attempt to be very resolute on this matter. Our difficulties have been acute. Bookings have fallen off considerably. People there were hoping for some relief after a hard and long winter with the highest level of unemployment for many years. Half a loaf has been given to us. It is not enough. My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth was right in pointing out the effect upon the service industries which, in these regional areas, are much dependent on part-time workers.
    The hotel trade is served by other service industries, including the laundries. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) with washing in his hand ready to give his view. The laundry trade employs a large number of part-time workers. It is afflicted by S.E.T. and the removal of investment allowances. When the laundries tried to put up their prices they were, as usual, referred to what our friends from Wales call "Jones the Price". The case went to the Prices and Incomes Board and the laundries were publicly lambasted by "Jones the Price".
    Mr. John Hall: It is "Jones the Income" as well.
    Mr. Webster: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The net result is that, following the activity of "Jones the Income" or "Jones the Price", the increase in prices was stopped—and this was in addition to the afflictions caused by direct Government action.
    The hotel trade—which is the main trade in all our resorts—is served also by transport and other service industries, and large sections of these are manned by part-time workers. This is particularly so because it is to a pleasant resort with the

    1383
    salubrious air of, say, Whitley Bay, which is not always so fresh when the sea fret comes in, that people go to retire. Retired people, as a result of the Government's actions, resulting in the rise in the cost of living, including an increase of 10 per cent, in electricity charges and other things of that nature which are not referred to the Prices and Incomes Board, instead of having a pleasant retirement as they expected are having to go out to work on a part-time basis.
    We attacked the Government last year for what they were doing to these people. This year the Government have been a little generous, but they should be very much more so with these areas, where there will be hardship this winter. That hardship will be caused by direct Government action. That is what we want to drive home. Last year, there was heavy unemployment in all these areas, and it was an exceptionally mild winter. I do not think that even our great Prime Minister can guarantee two mild winters, despite his Winter Emergency Committee, which was lucky to get away with a mild winter.
    I am sure that the coming winter will not be so mild, and I assure the Chief Secretary that there will be hardship in the regions that we have been talking about. In the West Country, we have been very hard hit by what has happened. I did not quite catch what the right hon. Gentleman said about the hotel trade. He made some remarks about improving its standards. Those remarks were also made by the Chancellor at the Boat Show last year, and some of us who represent these people, knowing that the hotel trade is the first to admit that it is not perfect, resent heartily such criticism of it from people who have put the greatest burdens on it by increasing imposts of taxes which it is not allowed to pass on.
    I remind the Chancellor that through the hotel trade we earn a great deal to help us with our balance of payments. Not only does it bring in business from abroad to "swinging London", despite the joylessness of the Chief Secretary, but when foreigners have been in the capital they often move on to the West Country, Blackpool, Folkestone or Whitley Bay or elsewhere, and enjoy the hotels there But if life is made difficult for
    1384
    hoteliers and they have to increase prices because of the S.E.T., then visitors will not come so readily.
    Thus our balance of payments is affected adversely. It is also affected adversely if our own people find that they do not want to go to a domestic resort. We know that people have the attraction of going to the Costa Brava and elsewhere abroad and, let us face it, our climate is not the sunniest. We must do all we can to help the hotel trade to be efficient and serve the customer. But every time we do it we get another imposition from the Government and those of us in these areas are finding life very hard.
    I want to come to a point which has not been developed to any great extent so far. My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth referred to some aspects of transport and to British Railways hotels. I want to refer to the bus operator who, although he is in a neutral band, has had life made hard for him. A large number of bus conductors operate on a part-time basis. The bus operators lost their investment allowances. During the proceedings of last year's Finance Act, we attempted to restore certain concessions and managed to achieve something and we thank the Government for that. Although the bus operators are in the neutral band, they still have to pay the revenue into the Treasury but they do not get back their money for months and this adversely affects the cash flow of the industry. If they were given a complete concession, it would be helpful.
    8.0 p.m.
    Concessions in fuel duty have been given by the Government, after pressure —and I pay tribute to them for having bowed to that pressure—but there is still the problem of cash flow, because there is no rebate for several months. This is a service industry which has been adversely affected. The laundry, hotel and retail industries, like the bus industry, would be helped if this concession were made in full. A massive number of industries have a service aspect. We have dealt with that at great length, and I do not want to detain the Committee excessively about the service industries, but it must be remembered that in a sophisticated society it is the service industries which develop fastest, and the Government are still penalising them acutely.

    1385
    There are part-timers working in offices in the City of London, retired people who now find, because of the Government's actions, that their rates and cost of living have gone up and they have to seek part-time employment. It is very difficult for them to get employment. A professional or business man who, at the age of 50, because of some redeployment, loses his job, finds it very difficult to get that job back again, or an equivalent job. If a man at the age of 50, earning about £1,500 or £2,000 a year is on the labour market, he has great difficulty getting a job of an equivalent nature.
    I have written to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour about a professional man with excellent qualifications who has tried very hard, but it is difficult for him to find part-time employment in the West Country. Does he have to come to London to get a job? That would cost him much more than any benefit he might get from a part-time job. The regions are adversely affected.
    We all know that the use of part-time conductors in public transport is prevalent, and it should be encouraged. The withdrawal of investment allowances, followed by the Selective Employment Tax, although in the neutral phase, is having an effect on cash flow. Even though there is repayment of fuel imposts after a time, the industry is very hard hit. This is at a time when the Minister of Transport is constantly saying that the motor car is an evil thing and that everyone should go by public transport. It shows what effect she has on the Cabinet about any subject but the doctrinaire policies which she loves. She waxes hot at anything like that and seems to get her way, but when it comes to an administrative matter to benefit transport itself, she is an utter failure, and her failure to induce the Government in this respect is another indictment of her failure. I hope that the argument so cogently put by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscamp-bell) and my hon. Friend from the miners' seaside resort will convince the Government to give way on this point and see some sense for the first time in this Finance Bill.
    Mr. Burden: When this tax was imposed, we were told that it would transfer people from the servicing side of the economy to the manufacturing side. This
    1386
    has not happened. There has been such a big rise in unemployment that that first intention has failed. It may well be that because of that the Government have started to re-think some part of this tax, and this Clause is an indication that they have done so.
    I am reminded that it was the right hon. Gentleman last year who stated, when a request was made for some reduction in the tax on part-timers, that it was utterly impossible. We now find one year later that it was not only possible, but that it is the same right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Clause today.
    The effect of this tax on part-timers in the service industries has meant that many of them are being denied the extra money which they could well use and which they find increasingly necessary as a result of the constant rise in prices.
    In the wholesale textile trade, in which I am interested, we are endeavouring, because of the economic circumstances imposed by the Government, to bring about economies. In many instances, it is preferable, because of the increase in general unemployment to employ people full time instead of part time. This emphasises the Government's failure to transfer fully employed people in the wholesale textile trade into manufacturing and increase the number of part-timers in that trade. If I may have a little attention—
    Mr. Diamond: I apologise. My attention strayed for a moment. I have listened to every speech with the greatest care and attention. I have heard the arguments time and time again, but I am only too glad to listen to them for the twentieth time.
    Mr. Burden: The hon. Gentleman is very courteous. I am reminded that the other night he boiled when he listened to some of my arguments, although he did not betray it very much. This is a case where I hope he will merely simmer and not boil.
    I recall to the right hon. Gentleman the remarks of his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) on another Amendment. He pointed out how the Co-op—and this applies to other retailers —found that there was a great increase in trade on Fridays and Saturdays and, in order to cope with the extra trade and

    1387
    give the public the service it had a right to demand, it was necessary to endeavour to recruit part-time labour. What happens? As soon as part-time labour becomes too costly, there is an effort to cut down and service is reduced. Because of reduction in service, many retail profits and wholesale profits are going down and the Government are losing more because of the lack of profitability of these businesses than they would if they abolished this tax entirely for part-time workers.
    My hon. Friends have mentioned the classic case of part-time employment in the catering industry. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that catering generally employs a large number of part-time workers to whom it is an extremely beneficial industry. The Government say that it is in the interests of the country and the economy that people should spend their holidays in this country. Although we have unfortunate weather, provided that they can get good service in hotels, people will do that—provided that the price of the hotel does not seem to be exorbitant. But hotels have had to cut down on even their part-time workers, because of the high cost involved, and in some cases they have had to cut down on the number of employees and impose higher charges on their guests.
    The hotel industry is a large earner of foreign exchange. Many people visit this country from hard currency areas such as America. They do so despite the inclement weather which may face them. They do so because our hotels are comfortable and have been well staffed. But they can be well staffed only by the employment of part-time workers. Hotels could afford to employ part-time workers when they did not have to pay the Selective Employment Tax, but the services of many hotels and restaurants have had to be reduced and along with declining services there have often had to be increases in prices. If the services provided by our hotels to visitors from overseas are inferior, because of taxation, to the services provided by our competitors in Europe and if in addition our hotel prices are considerably increased, foreign visitors will be reluctant to continue to come here and to advise others to do so.
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    The Government have largely admitted this case by halving the tax. If there is not substance in the argument, why has the tax been reduced? Why should it not also apply to the disabled as well as the ordinary part-time worker? The Government have admitted the case, and what an admission it is. How difficult it must have been for them to swallow their words of last year. How difficult they must have found it to do something this year which last year they said was completely and absolutely impossible. We may be reaching a time when the Government say that the difficult is something which they do today while the impossible is something which takes just a little longer. This has taken a year and, while the Chief Secretary may say today that it is impossible to refund the tax entirely in respect of part-time workers, we can hope that in a little less than a year the Government will have appreciated the necessity for removing the whole of this tax.
    8.15 p.m.
    It is curious how the Government so often profess always to help the poor— it is the philosophy of the Labour Party that the poorer people in the community are those whom we should protect—and yet those who are employed part time in most industries are the most needy in the community. They are the old or the incapacitated, those who because of infirmity, or for some other reason, cannot obtain full-time work, or do a full day's work, or a full week's work. They, above all, are the people who need help in order to live a useful and comparatively full life.
    I do not know whether a glimmer of understanding is reaching the Government, but they are now reconsidering the position which they maintained when they introduced Selective Employment Tax and they are making it possible for half the sum to be refunded. It is but a glimmer, but I hope that it will turn into something much brighter and that the right hon. Gentleman will say that the Government are prepared to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: I entirely agree with the excellent speeches of my hon. Friends who represent seaside areas or areas near the seaside which have special problems, but

    1389
    this problem affects every residential area, one of which I have the pleasure of representing. In residential areas there were women employed part time in shops and laundries and offices who have now gone out of employment and who are of no use to the economy whatever. The whole philosophy behind the Selective Employment Tax a year ago was that the women of Twickenham, for instance, should rush madly out of the shops and offices to work in the foundries of Chiswick or in the motor works of Dagen-ham to produce exports.
    In fact, the production of the foundries of Chiswick is seriously down and the motor works at Dagenham has been laying men off, so that even if those women wanted to take the long trip to Dagenham, they would not have been able to find jobs there. In fact, they are staying at home and doing nothing and it would be much better if they could be re-employed by the laundries and shops and offices which would like to take on part-time workers and which would do so if they did not have to pay Selective Employment Tax.
    I emphasise that this is a national problem affecting every constituency and not just those of the West Country or seaside resorts. The Government should take this matter seriously. I prophesy that otherwise production will go down, that more little shops will go out of business, as they are now, particularly radio and television shops, and that this autumn there will be a serious increase in unemployment, particularly among part-time workers, and that the Government will be shocked by the rise in the unemployment figures.
    Mr. John Tilney (Liverpool, Waver-tree): I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gres-ham Cooke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) have said, and I particularly want to suggest to the Chief Secretary that he may not have thought about the part-time staff of the voluntary non-profit-making organisations, of which there are a considerable number.
    Mr. Diamond: I very much hope that I shall have the privilege of listening to the hon. Gentleman's speech when we reach that Amendment.
    Mr. Tilney: Unfortunately I understand that that Amendment has not been called. I am therefore suggesting that the part-time staff of these voluntary, non-profit-making organisations should be considered by him and the Treasury very carefully indeed, because they are helping the social services of the country in a major way.
    Many of the organisations cannot afford a full-time paid staff. I know that the Financial Secretary, not so very long ago, was good enough to receive a deputation from the Women's Consultative Council. It was pointed out then that many of the organisations that make up that Council supplement the work of statutory educational and social services. It is representative of a very large body. No less than 19 members of that body supported the deputation which brought the Memorandum to the Financial Secretary.
    These were bodies varying from the Co-operative Women's Guild, the Federation of Soroptomists Clubs, the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds and even the National Labour Women's Advisory Committee. I accept that neither the National Labour Women's Advisory Committee or for that matter, the Women's Advisory Committees of the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations would qualify for relief, and I also accept that some of the supporting bodies, like the National Federation of Women's Institutes and Townswomen's Guilds are registered as charities.
    But there are others, and I hope that the Chief Secretary will bear these in mind. There is, for example, the Federation of University Women, the League of Jewish Women, the National Board of Catholic Women or even, and I believe that it is the senior organisation, the National Council of Women, all of whom are badly hit by this tax.
    It is not only women's organisations which are affected. I have here a letter from the Overseas Service Pensioners' Association. It employs a certain number of part-time workers and it pays £350 per annum to help the work of the council and the executive of the Association. The only revenue that it can rely on comes from subscriptions and gifts from old servants of the Crown, who are frequently

    1391
    very badly off. These organisations help the State in a very major way.
    They save the expense of paying additional professional social workers; they often pioneer projects in community care; they do much in hospitals; they run canteens; look after mental patients and visit homes for aged people. It is hardly a good advertisement to say that a large percentage, or a certain percentage, of the subscriptions to these bodies, given for charitable reasons, is syphoned off by the Treasury.
    They do many useful jobs of work and I will not weary the Committee by going into them all. They help the State to save money—
    The Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is now making a plea for exemption in general for these bodies. I am afraid that he is getting a little far from the Amendment, which is concerned with part-timers, and I hope that he will relate his remarks to those part-timers.
    Mr. Tilney: I understand, but nearly all of these bodies are jolly poor. They employ a considerable number of part-time workers, and that is why I am making a special plea for those part-time workers who help to pioneer projects which enrich the community and who are now penalised by the Treasury. I very much hope that when the Chief Secretary replies to the debate he will tell us that he has considered the point of view that I have put forward, that of the valuable service to the community by these organisations.
    Mr. Diamond: Let me say straight away that I listened with great interest, and full understanding of the procedural difficulties, to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney). I will bear in mind what has been said by him and all other hon. Members, whether related to this Amendment or not. I would particularly bear in mind what was said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin), who spoke of the indignation among his constituents about a particular incident and mentioned that no proper channel of communication was available. I do not know if this is a matter affecting my Department, or one of my colleagues, but I will gladly look into it and see if
    1392
    it can be alleviated. I will write to the hon. Gentleman.
    Perhaps it will not be considered that I am being either discourteous to the Committee or that my remarks are out of order if I refer to the Amendment in page 28, line 31, to leave out "half". That is the Amendment put forward by the official Opposition to reduce the remaining Selective Employment Tax on part-time workers, which the Government proposed to reduce by half. The Opposition propose that the half should be extinguished, and that there should be no tax at all.
    I should start by giving the background to this. The tax was introduced last year and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor promised that he would keep very carefully under review certain sensitive points, of which this was obviously one. That matter has been kept under careful review. There has been a report, to which hon. Gentlemen have referred, but economic circumstances have been such that it is quite impossible for me to say that the reason why the Government are coming forward with this Clause, I refer to the Clause and not the Amendment, is because they are satisfied that there is any major economic damage resulting from the imposition of the tax at a disproportionate rate on part-time workers.
    Because of the economic situation, although the matter has been kept under review, it has been impossible to distinguish between the economic forces and to say that what has happened has been due to the Selective Employment Tax at a disproportionate rate. Nevertheless, we recognise the fact that it is a disproportionate rate. We have always recognised this and we recognise that there is a theoretical economic argument in favour of removing the disproportion. As the hon. Gentleman properly said, we have some evidence, namely, the report of the Distributive Trades Economic Development Committee. The distributive trades felt that the tax had an ill-effect on the employment of part-time workers.
    We have never been inflexibly disposed against reducing the disproportion. We have said that we should be glad to keep it under review and have recognised the simple force of the arithmetic. But we were not able last year to conceive of

    1393
    any administrative method whereby, if we thought it could be reduced by half, we could satisfactorily do so. We made our views clear.
    8.30 p.m.
    As the hon. Gentleman said, a Labour Government takes a little longer to do the impossible, and therefore we are doing it this year. The hon. Member for Wan-stead and Woodford took great pleasure in laying stress on this. I am grateful that he draws attention to the Government's willingness at all times to keep matters under review and to give full consideration, even possibly premature consideration, to possible economic causes before they get too far advanced and to try again and yet again to find suitable machinery for dealing with them. We think that we have found suitable machinery.
    Our experience of the refund machinery has been very good. In view of some of the comments which it was thought proper to make in the Committee, I should like to congratulate publicly those civil servants in all departments who, tackling something entirely new, have been able to find an efficient, taxpayer-protecting method of refunding the tax in appropriate cases smoothly and satisfactorily. Because of that experience, we can properly move on and provide machinery for the refund of the disproportion—to take the "dis" out of "disproportion".
    The Amendment deals with the removal of the remaining half. I have listened very carefully, as I always do, to every speech. I have heard a good deal of emotional outburst, but I have not heard one argument in favour of a remission of 100 per cent. as opposed to 50 per cent. Let me say why I think that 50 and not 100 per cent. remission is right. May I put the matter in perspective, because some speeches might have led us to believe that we are dealing with an enormous sector of the economy and that the effect of the tax has been terrible to a degree.
    We are dealing with part-time employees in the service industries—about 2 per cent. of the labour force—90 per cent. of whom are women. For the sake of simplicity, I hope that the Committee will allow me to assume that the percentage of part-time women workers is 100, realising that a slight adjustment has to be made
    1394
    as the figure is in fact only 90 per cent. The tax payable is 12s. 6d. The argument is about 6s. 3d. per week. The average number of hours worked by those working between eight and 21 hours is approximately 17. Therefore, the cost per hour of the Amendment would be approximately 5d. It is this 5d. an hour which hon. Members who have alleged that this impost is destroying the hotel industry and I do not know how many other industries have been inveighing against. Fivepence an hour mounts up to 6s. 3d. a week, and it mounts up if an employer has many employees. I recognise that. But we have to keep a sense of proportion, and it is only right that, as no figures have been given, I should put the matter in its proper perspective.
    The question therefore is: is it right to relieve 12s. 6d., or is it right to relieve, as the Government propose, 6s. 3d.? The argument which the Government have always accepted has been that it is a disproportion to charge a full rate on a part-time worker and that unless we are to have a particular subsidy or pick out a certain group for special help, the sensible thing, therefore, is to have a half rate for a part-time worker. I say "half" because that is broadly right. Indeed, the report of the Distributive Trades E.D.C., to which the hon. Member referred and on which he based his case although, I regret to say, he did not refer to its recommendation, recommended that the disproportionate effect of the tax on the use of part-time labour should be corrected either by reducing the tax to one-third or one-half for insured persons working between eight and 21 hours— that is, the category which we are considering—or by exempting from its incidence the part-timers employed for less than 16 hours a week.
    We have chosen to accept the recommendation of the E.D.C. concerning the eight and 21 hours—as hon. Members know, there are very good reasons for going up to 21 hours and for the eight hours—and to relieve tax by one-half, which is broadly in line with the part-time worked, because these people are women and women do not normally work a full week even if they are employed full time. Broadly, therefore, in simple terms, it is in line with the hours worked and it would. therefore, be a proportionate tax.
    I go further at once. It would, therefore, be precisely in line with Tory thinking and Tory proposals. The Tory proposals are that they do not like a Selective Employment Tax, and they have said so many times. They dislike the selectivity. On every Amendment, they ask for increased selectivity in a particular case. We will, however, forgive that inconsistency.
    The Tories have said that they do not like a Selective Employment Tax and that they much prefer a payroll tax.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Diamond: The hon. Member, who moved the Amendment, says, "Hear, hear", agreeing that the Conservative proposal is for a payroll tax, which would mean a part-time tax on a part-time worker.
    Mr. Burden: On a point of order. Are we not discussing the Amendment, Mr. Grant-Ferris? We are not discussing the hypothetical position of the Conservative Party regarding a payroll tax.
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Grant-Ferris): I think that the Chief Secretary is perfectly in order.
    Mr. Diamond: The point which I am making is the inconsistency of the hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford, who moved the proposal, which, I feel sure, will get the support of all his right hon. and hon. Friends in the Division Lobby. The proposal is not that it should be, as we suggest, proportionate—that is, exactly the same as a payroll tax in broad terms—but that it should be disproportionate and not as a payroll tax and that, therefore, if it were a payroll tax, special relief would be given for these part-time employees.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman recognises, I am sure, that a common form of payroll tax is a tax based as a percentage of the payroll—that is, the remuneration. That would mean that it would be directly proportional all the way through, including the reduced rate for the part-time workers. The other form, a completely flat-rate payroll tax per head with no selectivity, is what I should like to see, to remove the selection. It is the selectivity against the service trade
    1396
    which is the source of the difficulty in this case and is the real evil of the tax.
    Mr. Diamond: The hon. Gentleman cannot wriggle out of it in that way. He has not thought sufficiently carefully, as he normally does, about what he is saying. I am not talking about a poll tax. The Tories do not propose a poll tax— that is, a tax of so much per head irrespective of the wages. The Tories are proposing through their leader a payroll tax, and a payroll tax is one in which tax is paid proportionate to the wages. The nearest parallel is that with the Selective Employment Tax is a half-rate tax for half-time employees, as provided in the Bill, against which the Tories propose to vote as soon as I sit down—at least, I hope that it will be as soon as I sit down, because we have had a very long debate.
    Therefore, I simply make the point that the natural justice in this case is that there should be a half-rate tax on part-time employees. It was not done earlier because we could not see a way of doing it. We have found a way, and we hope that the Committee will accept it. We think that what we are proposing is good sense and ties up with Tory policy. It is supported by the only authoritative report available, which is that of the Distributive Trades E.D.C. In those circumstances, we cannot recommend the Committee to accept this Amendment.
    Mr. Costain: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask him if he did not hear the argument put forward that this Amendment would help the elderly, and is it not right that we should give special concessions to the elderly? That is what we are after.
    Mr. Diamond: We had a full discussion on the elderly when dealing with the previous Amendment.
    Mr. Higgins: I shall not detain the Committee for very long, but the right on. Gentleman cannot expect to put up that sort of argument and hope that we shall move immediately to a Division. It is right that the points which he made should be answered.
    It is clear that the tightness of the Government's Money Resolution which governs Amendments to the Selective Employment Tax has been designed to make it difficult to table Amendments. Given the strength of feeling which exists

    1397
    in the country about the tax, that is not surprising. Nor is it surprising that, from time to time, my hon. Friends have found it difficult to keep in order. This is a matter which raises great passion, but I shall seek to keep well within the rules of order when dealing with this Amendment covering part-time workers.
    I do not think that the Chief Secretary's reply was at all satisfactory. It was almost as unsatisfactory as the presence of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Social Security throughout this debate has been welcome. I am sure that his Department is rightly concerned about the effects which the inadequate Clause that we seek to amend is having on part-time workers, many of whom are in an elderly age bracket.
    The Government's Clause merely makes the tax on part-time workers equal to that on workers as a whole. We pointed out clearly last year, that, effectively, there was a double tax on part-time workers under the arrangements which we were considering and, therefore, that there was a case for at least bringing them into line with other workers by halving their rate. We are glad that the right hon. Gentleman has recognised the strength of that argument —[A RIGHT HON. MEMBER: "It was conceded."] It was conceded, but the right hon. Gentleman sought to wriggle out of it by saying that it was not possible administratively. We find now that it is possible.
    If it is possible to reduce the figure to half, it is possible to eliminate it completely. We suggest that there is a good case for doing so, and I wish briefly to deploy the arguments in favour of that course.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) made a number of points about voluntary and non-profit-making institutions, and certainly they need to be taken into account. However, the bulk of the argument has turned on part-time workers in the distributive trades and in hotels. A reduction of the kind which we suggest will do something to stimulate the employment of part-time workers. The right hon. Gentleman tried to bring in a complicated argument about what Conservative policy was on this matter, but he must understand that we are against the
    1398
    tax absolutely and have a complete alternative proposal. That does not mean that the discrimination which he is now employing in this tax could not be made rather less bad by Amendments of this kind. If we are considering the case from scratch, that is a different matter. The right hon. Gentleman knows that his case is based on well-known logical fallacy, and he cannot come before the Committee with that kind of argument.
    8.45 p.m.
    My hon. Friend pointed out that due to an arbitrary Ministry of Labour decision, there is gross discrimination between warehouses which are integrated with a concern and those which are independent. Both depend considerably on part-time workers, but integrated warehouses receive the premium whereas independent warehouses pay the tax. In fact, the economic argument is very much in favour of the independent warehouses, because they are not related, by and large, to a fairly small-scale single undertaking but to a larger group and thus have the efficiencies of economy of scale.
    On hotels, I will not give "commercials" for my constituency as others have done, but I reinforce their argument that this industry is a big dollar and export earner. Therefore, anything which raises hotel costs affects the balance of payments adversely, particularly given that the import content of the industry, apart from certain labour requirements, is low.
    The hon. Gentleman said that we were arguing about only 5d. an hour, but it is nevertheless important to people in small boarding houses and hotels. Anyway, if it is so small, why is it so difficult to accept the Amendment? A silly feature of the S.E.T. is that we are not simply exempting people but collecting the money and then refunding it and all this, on his own argument, for 5d. an hour on part-time workers.
    The point is summed up in a letter which appeared in the Sunday Times on 6th November:
    "Just how ludicrous the situation has grown can be judged by the attitude of British Rail hotel executives, faced with a £300,000 bill for SET. 'If we lose men,' says a spokesman, ' our standards fall, customers vanish and profits take another dive. And, anyway, a large proportion of them are foreign. If they leave, they have to return to the Ministry of Labour who could send them all back to Italy.

    1399
    How's that going to help the factories in the Midlands?'."
    But many of those working in hotels are citizens of this country and often they are part-time workers.
    We therefore believe that there is a strong case for the Amendment which would help the tourist trade and improve the balance of payments. My hon. Friend
    said that there was no reason why the Government should not now accept the Amendment from a technical point of view, and I therefore hope that my hon. Friends will join me in the Division Lobby in support of it.
    Question put, That "half" stand part of the Clause:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 158, Noes 105.

    Division No. 355.]

    AYES

    [8.49 p.m.

    Anderson, Donald

    Hale, Leslie (Oldham, w.)

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton. Test)

    Archer, Peter

    Hamilton, William (Fife, w.)

    Moonman, Eric

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

    Hamling, William

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Harper, Joseph

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Barnett, Joel

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Beaney, Alan

    Hattersley, Roy

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

    Hazell, Bert

    Moyle, Roland

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Blackburn, F.

    Hilton, W. S.

    Norwood, Christopher

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Ogden, Eric

    Booth, Albert

    Hooley, Frank

    O'Malley, Brian

    Boston, Terence

    Horner, John

    Oram, Albert E.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Orbach, Maurice

    Bradley, Tom

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Orme, Stanley

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Padley, Walter

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Howie, W.

    Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Huckfield, L.

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Pentland, Norman

    Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Chapman, Donald

    Hunter, Adam

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Coleman, Donald

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Concannon, J. D.

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Reynolds, G. W.

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

    Richard, Ivor

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Darling Rt. Hn. George

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

    Roebuck, Roy

    Dewar, Donald

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Rose, Paul

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Dickens, James

    Lawson, George

    Ryan, John

    Doig, Peter

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Ledger, Ron

    Sheldon, Robert

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Luard, Evan

    Slater, Joseph

    Eadie, Alex

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Small, William

    Ellis, John

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Snow, Julian

    Ensor, David

    McBride, Neil

    Symonds, J. B.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

    MacColl, James

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Tinn, James

    Faulds, Andrew

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Ferryhough, E.

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Mackie, John

    Wallace, George

    Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Wellbeloved, James

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Ford, Ben

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Whitaker, Ben

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Whitlock, William

    Gardner, Tony

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornkurch)

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Maxwell, Robert

    Winnick, David

    Gregory, Arnold

    Mellish, Robert

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    Mendelson, J. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Millan, Bruce

    Mr. Alan Fitch and

    Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Mr. Harry Gourlay.

    NOES

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Brewis, John

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Crouch, David

    Bessell, Peter

    Bryan, Paul

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Blaker, Peter

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.)

    Body, Richard

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Burden, F. A.

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Corfield, F. V.

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Braine, Bernard

    Costain, A. P.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Eden, Sir John

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Royle, Anthony

    Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Errington, Sir Eric

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Scott, Nicholas

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Kirk, Peter

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Fortescue, Tim

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Foster, Sir John

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Smith, John

    Clover, Sir Douglas

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Stodart, Anthony

    Grant, Anthony

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Tapsell, Peter

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

    Gurden, Harold

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Monro, Hector

    Temple, John M.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    More, Jasper

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Tilney, John

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Hastings, Stephen

    Nott, John

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Webster, David

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Hiley, Joseph

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Pardoe, John

    Worsley, Marcus

    Holland, Philip

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Wright, Esmond

    Hordern, Peter

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Wylie, N. R.

    Hunt, John

    Prior, J. M. L.

    younger, Hn. George

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Pym, Francis

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Mr. Reginald Eyre and

    Mr. Timothy Kitson.

    Mr. R. H. Turton: I beg to move Amendment No. 200, in page 29, line 7, at the end to insert:
    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1) above, in respect of persons employed by a fee-paying school the Minister shall make a payment equal to the tax paid in respect of persons who do not pay surtax.
    This Amendment raises the whole question of the incidence of the Selective Employment Tax on education. The operation of the Guillotine last year prevented a debate on this subject, so I will, if I may, sketch in the background of the present position. At present, the Selective Employment Tax is refunded in respect of staff employed by schools managed by local education authorities and the staff of all schools that are charitable trusts, but it is not refunded in respect of staff at schools coming into neither of those categories. That raises two questions, the first being: is education a social service? If it is, it is clearly quite reactionary and uncivilised to tax it. Secondly, is it right to levy a tax on the staff of some schools without refund, but to refund it in respect of staff of other schools?
    The discrimination over the refund of tax in education is quite haphazard and unfair. In order to comply with the strict terms of the Financial Resolution I have had to draft my Amendment so as to limit its scope to staff earning below the Surtax limit, but I can assure the Committee that few if any of the staff,
    1402
    of the independent schools belonging to the Association of which I am president are fortunate enough to be excluded from the provision by being within the Surtax limit.
    During the nine months of the operation of the tax the arbitrary nature of its provisions has been exposed. The figures I give are accurate, I believe, but I know that the Financial Secretary will correct me if they are not. In respect of about half the independent schools that are recognised as efficient the tax has been refunded, whilst in respect of the other half it has not been refunded. In a number of schools registered but not recognised as efficient, the tax has been refunded, but in the other cases it has not. This is an anomalous position. If there is any merit in the Ministry's system of classification of schools as registered and recognised as efficient, this shows that the arbitrary discrimination under Selective Employment Tax is both unsound and bad for education.
    9.0 p.m.
    In the last few months since Selective Employment Tax has been in operation it has been the cause of the closure of a number of schools. If it continues more schools will have to close. Unfortunately, the incidence of the tax is hardest on the better schools. Schools which give a wider range of teaching facilities have to bear a far heavier burden of tax than schools which have not such a wide range of facilities. A school which has classes

    1403
    in different foreign languages and staff employed for that purpose has a burden of tax which is a great deal higher.
    It is also particularly harsh on independent schools which are boarding schools and have the necessity to employ a great many more staff than day schools. It has been the experience that fees for independent schools which are boarding schools have had to go up far higher proportionately than fees for independent day schools. That is especially unfortunate at present when there is a great shortage of boarding school accommodation. I think I am right in saying that only two local education authorities provide boarding school facilities. The tax is having a damaging effect on boarding school facilities.
    This is a very grievous drawback. In many cases children, either because of home background or parental occupation, have to receive boarding school education. I am glad to see the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science present. Local education authorities do not provide boarding education for children and they have to go to schools in the independent sector. Those schools are now closing because of the operation of the tax.
    There is also the problem of children from Commonwealth countries or whose British parents are serving abroad. There is a great need for boarding schools for their education. The axe of Selective Employment Tax is falling harshly and unequally in this sector. Schools which can get themselves within the terms of a charitable trust get the refund, but those which for reasons of history, or endowment, or the nature of the tenancy of the school are not able to become charitable trusts, are so penalised that in many cases they have to close.
    For these reasons, I move this Amendment which is designed to remedy a muddle created by the Selective Employment Payments Act. If it cares for the future of the country, this Committee must stand by the principle of no tax on education. That is an essential principle from the social aspect. The tax at its present level is penalising certain children, certain parents and certain schools on the purely arbitrary ground of whether a school can or cannot bring
    1404
    itself under the Charities Act. This Amendment would remedy that in a suitable way.
    Mr. A. H. Macdonald: I have listened to the debates on most of the Amendments so far. Most of the Amendments have had the common objective of seeking to reduce the burden of taxation on a particular sector of the economy or of the people. To redress the balance, I have today tabled a new Clause which seeks to increase taxation on a certain sector.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: It is out of order.
    Mr. Macdonald: Many of the Amendments have been moved with great cogency. So great was the cogency with which an Amendment was moved last night that I was glad that it was not pressed to a Division, otherwise I might have been somewhat embarrassed. The Amendments have been put forward on behalf of various sectors of the economy, many of them very deserving. It must have been difficult for the Treasury Bench to determine a proper sense of priorities.
    All the Amendments have been moved persuasively until now. I listened with astonishment to the suggestion that this sector of the economy should be singled out for favourable treatment. The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) asked whether a school is not a social service. The schools he had in mind are not social services. They are business enterprises and should be taxed accordingly. I cannot think that at this time this sector of the economy should be singled out for favourable treatment.
    Not long ago a very unfortunate case arose affecting a private fee-paying school. The case was reported in the Press. I shall not dwell upon the details. I am far from suggesting that every fee-paying school is of the same character. However, there is the fact and I do not see why these schools should be singled out for favourable treatment.
    Last Saturday I had a conversation with a man in my constituency who teaches at a grammar school which is likely to be affected by secondary reorganisation plans. I will not go into the merits of that policy. The teacher spoke to me because he was aggrieved because criticisms had been made that

    1405
    he was defending some sort of privilege. The point he made very strongly was that he and his colleagues at the school taught there precisely because they did not want to maintain privilege: and, though all of them could easily have obtained positions at fee-paying schools, they deliberately did not do so because they wanted to maintain the standard of education provided by public authorities. That is a standpoint with which I have a great deal of sympathy. I went to a fee-paying school. I know very well the spirit of class distinction which is fostered at these places. I do not say deliberately fostered, but fostered it certainly is, and I regard it as thoroughly undesirable.
    When the right hon. Gentleman said that some of these schools were being forced to close down, particularly those with large numbers! of employees, it occurred to me that it is just those schools which are undesirable. While we have a State system under which we have to accept classes of 30, 40 or even more, it is a monstrously uneconomic use of teachers to perpetuate the existence of private schools where there are relatively small numbers in classes.
    For those reasons, I cannot think that this Amendment, of all the Amendments put before us, is the one which we should support.
    Mr. Evelyn King: It is tempting to follow the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald) and to indulge in a debate about the merits of private education or otherwise, but, save for a few comments, I shall avoid that temptation. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to correct him at least on one point. He is under the impression that financial advantage derives to the proprietor and is lost to the State when a pupil is privately educated. Precisely the opposite is true. A boy or girl educated at State schools for 10 years, which is about the average, costs the State over £1,000. For every child who goes to a private school, the State is saved that £1,000. Therefore, purely from the narrow financial standpoint, the education of any boy or girl at a private school is a bargain for the State, and any concession made under this Amendment would only slightly affect that immensely advantageous bargain which
    1406
    the State has. Let us nail that financial argument right away. It is wholly false.
    Again, on the education side, I remind the hon. Gentleman—I know that there are many who take his view—that it is one of the principles of the United Nations, to which this House and the country assented, that parents shall have the right to choose the education for their children. The hon. Gentleman may think-that many parents are wrong, and I assume, if he likes, that they are wrong. But, whether they be right or wrong, they have the right to make that choice. If hon. Members opposite propose to make private education either illegal or disadvantageous, they should remember the principles of the Charter of the United Nations to which they so freely subscribe.
    The hon. Gentleman spoke as though all parents had a choice in the matter. They do not. There are many parents, far more than he realises, who live overseas, who serve in Commonwealth territories, in Europe or elsewhere, who are divorced, or who live in small flats in London, who have no choice but to send their children to a boarding school. The State does not provide even enough boarding school accommodation to meet the essential needs. I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman will take it from me that this is an essential point. Indeed, to a large extent the educational system would break down and parents would not have the choice which the hon. Gentleman sought to deny by so unwise a speech.
    9.15 p.m.
    That is sufficient on the educational side, on which I had not intended to dwell for so long. The effect of the Amendment is to encourage those who control private schools of all kinds to have as large a staff as practicable and as small a class as possible. I have thought that both sides of the Committee would think that that was desirable, and if it is thought desirable, the Amendment has substantial merit.
    My final point concerns the inequity of the present arrangement. Even if one accepts everything the hon. Gentleman said, the present tax arrangement is wholly inequitable because it does not do what he thinks. It discriminates on no basis of common sense between one school and

    1407
    another. If he takes the preparatory school section, to which the Amendment principally refers, he will find that about half our schools are charities or companies limited by guarantee which are registered as charities. They have the full benefit of the rebate. The other half do not happen to have that particular company formation and are therefore robbed of the benefit. No one suggests that the educational merits of one are superior to the other. It is simply a matter of luck.
    Therefore, first upon educational grounds, secondly upon financial grounds, and thirdly upon grounds of pure necessity, these schools should be encouraged. The law as it stands is inequitable, unjust and unwise.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): I shall not be drawn into the educational argument which the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Evelyn King) has been deploying. But in his so-called financial argument of the alleged £1,000 saving in respect of each child I do not know what allowance he has made for the considerable tax allowances which are involved in different ways.
    The hon. Gentleman says that there is the right to choose, and it is very important to have that right. It is a much greater right among those who can afford to send their children to fee-paying schools than among those who cannot. For the great mass of people in this country, I am afraid, the right, although it exists in law, is very narrow if it exists at all.
    Let us return to the Amendment which the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) moved with a clarity, brevity and relevance which are a model to us all, and a reminder of how the Finance Bill Committee debates should be conducted. He put two questions at the outset of his argument. I shall come direct to them, because they go right to the heart of the matter. First, he asked if education is a social service, and, if so, if it is not reactionary to tax it. Secondly, he asked, if it is right to grant a refund for some schools why is it not right to grant it for others.
    It is on what he considers to be the proper answers to those questions that he argues for the Amendment. My answer
    1408
    is the contrary to his. I agree that education in general is a social service, and that most education in this country is provided as a social service and paid for from public funds. But a part of education is operated on a commercial basis and is already subject to taxation in various forms. There is no general principle for exempting it from tax.
    I do not consider it reactionary to tax commercially run education. One can think of many highly successful commercial enterprises, not particularly in the range of fee-paying schools the right hon. Gentleman had in mind, but which are nevertheless fee-paying schools—for example, commercial and secretarial colleges which are run as highly efficient and profitable commercial organisations. I do not see why they should not be taxed.
    The right hon. Gentleman's second question was that, if it is right to grant a refund for some schools, is it not right for others? A refund is granted for some schools because they are charities. So far as the vast bulk of schools—the maintained schools—is concerned, in effect there is reimbursement from public moneys because there is no other source from which it could be obtained. The schools he has in mind are the private independent schools which have the good fortune to be charities or have been able to bring themselves, or were founded in such a way as to be, within the law of charities. They have benefited from this exemption.
    The Committeee will remember that last year some of my hon. Friends moved an Amendment to deprive these schools of the advantage they receive as charities and that I pointed out that we were not able to make this distinction because it would be wrong to try to put upon the Chancellor the task of picking and choosing among charities which were deserving of refund and which were not.
    Mr. Pardoe: It was not any of the hon. and learned Gentleman's Friends who moved that Amendment to exempt public schools from being regarded as charities. It was I.
    Mr. MacDermot: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I recall that it was indeed he. But the theme he started was quickly picked up by a number of my hon. Friends and we had a short but lively debate which I remember well as

    1409
    one of the less tedious parts of our proceedings last year. It was almost the only debate from my point of view which was not tedious. We suffered long, I assure the Committee, last year on the Treasury Bench.
    The exempted schools are not picked out because they are worthy of a refund but because they are charities, and charities as a class have been accepted, and were accepted by the Chancellor last year, as being entitled to a refund. If we were at once to accept the principle that any body or class of organisation, of which some were charities and others were not, should be entitled to the same exemption, we should be extending the charity exemption far beyond what it is, and it is fairly wide already.
    Again, this would be putting upon the Chancellor the impossible task of trying to pick and choose those which were worthy bodies and should be entitled to exemption and those which should not. All this comes back to the basic heresy which comes up so often—the assumption that when the Chancellor chooses to impose a tax on some body or activity, he is making a moral judgment in some way against it. That is not so.
    This tax is levied upon these independent schools because they are operating as commercial organisations providing a service and therefore fall within the general services to which the tax applies. They do not fall within an accepted category for exemption. From the arguments which have been deployed, we do not see that any sufficient case has been made out for saying that a special exemption should be made in their case.
    Mr. Costain: The hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald) made a typically Socialist speech about privilege in education. We never expect to make much impression on the Treasury Bench during Finance Bills. We have found on previous Amendments that arguments which we have put forward one year generally bear fruit the next. What surprises me is that my right hon. Friend, the Father of the House, should have thought that an Amendment, even so well moved, would have any effect, because
    of the prejudice of the Socialists against private education.
    I accept what the Financial Secretary says about this being a social service. It is more than a social service; it is a manufacturing process. In the process of education we are producing some of our finest assets. If a bonus can be given for manufacturing a computer, why cannot a bonus be given for manufacturing a human computer which will be a greater asset? It is wrong for the hon. Member for Chislehurst to say that we are giving a special privilege. We are trying to arrange for this form of education to get a fair share of the bounty.
    This is a matter of exports. In Folkestone there are boarding schools which exist because they are educating the children of British people abroad. The hon. Member made the point that there are a number of children whose parents are abroad and children of foreign parents at these schools. I should like the Treasury to find out what revenue is being earned from educating overseas children in private schools in this country. If these schools are put out of business, we shall lose this income of foreign currency. However, it is no good arguing this case long in view of the prejudice of the Government Front Bench.
    Mr. Turton: I have always admired the debating facility of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Financial Secretary, but I am surprised that he should have used that argument. We are not talking about taxation on profits. Most of these schools are non-profit-making. Selective Employment Tax is devoted to attempting to shift labour from the service industries into manufacturing. Education is the manufacture of character. For that reason, education should be exempted from the tax. That is the main purpose of this Amendment and I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will follow me into the Lobby.
    Question put, That those words be there Inserted:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 104, Noes 165.

    Division No. 356.]

    AYES

    [9.28 p.m.

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Blaker, Peter

    Braine, Bernard

    Bryan, Paul

    Body, Richard

    Brewis, John

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Bullus, Sir Erie

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Burden, F. A.

    Hiley, Joseph

    Pym, Francis

    Clark, Henry

    Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Corfield, F. V.

    Holland, Philip

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Costain, A. P.

    Hordern, Peter

    Royle, Anthony

    Cradciock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Hunt, John

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Crouch, David

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Scott, Nicholas

    Crowder, F. P.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Sinclair, Sir George

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Smith, John

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Stodart, Anthony

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Dray son, G. B.

    Kirk, Peter

    Tapsell, Peter

    Eden, Sir John

    Kitson, Timothy

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Langford-Hoit, Sir John

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Temple, John M.

    Fortescue, Tim

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Foster, Sir John

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Tilney, John

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Grant, Anthony

    Monro, Hector

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    More, Jasper

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Gurden, Harold

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Worsley, Marcus

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Wright, Esmond

    Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

    Nott, John

    Wylie, N. R.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Younger, Hn. George

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES

    Hastings, Stephen

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Mr. Reginald Eyre and

    Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Mr. David Mitchell.

    NOES

    Anderson, Donald

    Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

    MacColl, James

    Archer, Peter

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Bacon, Rt. Hn. Allce

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Freeson, Reginald

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Barnett, Joel

    Gardner, Tony

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Beaney, Alan

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Mackie, John

    Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

    Gregory, Arnold

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Bessell, Peter

    Grey, Charles (Durham)

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Blackburn, F.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Booth, Albert

    Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

    Maxwell, Robert

    Boston, Terence

    Hamling, William

    Mellish, Robert

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Harper, Joseph

    Mendelson, J. J

    Bradley, Tom

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Millan, Bruce

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Hattersley, Roy

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Hazell, Bert

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Moonman, Eric

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C)

    Hilton, W. S.

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Hooley, Frank

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

    Horner, John

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    Chapman, Donald

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Moyle, Roland

    Coleman, Donald

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Concannon, J. D.

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Norwood, Christopher

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Howie, W.

    Ogden, Eric

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Huckfield, L.

    O'Malley, Brian

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)

    Oram, Albert E.

    Darling, Rt. Hn. George

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.)

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Orme, Stanley

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hunter, Adam

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Davies, Ifor (Cower)

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Padley, Walter

    Dewar, Donald

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Pardoe, John

    Dickens, James

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Doig, Peter

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Pentland, Norman

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Eadie, Alex

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Ellis, John

    Lawson, George

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Ennals, David

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Reynolds, G. W.

    Ensor, David

    Ledger, Ron

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

    Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, yardley)

    Luard, Evan

    Roebuck, Roy

    Faulds, Andrew

    Lubbock, Eric

    Rose, Paul

    Fernyhough, E.

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Ryan, John

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    McBride, Neil

    Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.)

    1412

    1413

    Sheldon, Robert

    Tinn, James

    Whitlock, William

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Winnick, David

    Slater, Joseph

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Small, William

    Wallace, George

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Snow, Julian

    Wellbeloved, James

    Mr. Alan Fitch and

    Symonds, J. B.

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Mr. Harry Gourlay.

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    Whitaker, Ben

    Mr. Paul Somerset: I beg to move Amendment No. 201, in page 29, line 7, at the end to insert:
    (2) Where an employer of persons in a nursing, convalescent or old people's home, or in a private hospital or medical insurance scheme, has paid selective employment tax in respect of any such person for any contribution week beginning on or after 4th September, 1967, the Minister shall repay to that employer all the tax so paid in respect of employees who do not pay surtax.
    The object of this Amendment is to grant a refund of S.E.T. to employees of nursing homes, convalescent homes, old people's homes, private hospitals or medical insurance schemes, in the case of employees who do not pay Surtax. As the Committee will know, the State hospitals and the local authority health services do not bear the burden of the Selective Employment Tax. Nor do private institutions where they are charities.
    This Amendment is concerned with those private institutions which are not charities, and which therefore bear the brunt of this tax. I do not propose to argue again the merits and demerits of the Selective Employment Tax as such. I propose to test this Amendment by the criteria which the Government have used for the Selective Employment Tax, both this year and last year, and the arguments employed to justify it.
    On this basis the Government should have no difficulty in accepting this Amendment. There will be agreement on all sides of the Committee, including the Treasury Bench, that no one wishes to put additional burdens on the care of the sick, the old, the disabled, the mentally handicapped, the incurable and the dying, yet this, in practice, is what this tax does in the case of those homes which are not exempt under present arrangements. Equally I am sure that the Government will readily recognise that one of the main arguments that they have used in support of the Selective Employment Tax, namely the desire to shift people from service industry to manufacturing industry, cannot possibly apply in cases of this kind. The notion that the Government would wish to see skilled
    1414
    medical staff going to work in jobs on the factory floor is clearly ridiculous. Therefore, that argument cannot apply in this case, and I do not suppose for a second that the Government intend to deploy it. Equally, it cannot be said that the organisations referred to in the Amendment are hoarding labour. Indeed, in most cases they are desperately short of labour to keep these institutions going. Therefore, none of the main arguments which the Government have used in respect of S.E.T. apply in this case.
    What about the practical arguments? Last year we were told by the Government that, whatever the merits of particular cases, it was not possible, at any rate at that time, to distinguish categories other than categories recognised within the National Insurance arrangements. But they added that if they were given time it might well be possible to find a way round this for particular groups deserving of refunds under the S.E.T. This year they have found a way round it in the case of the part-timers. In my view, there are no practical difficulties in finding a way round it for these homes. They are all registered with local authorities. They are subject to inspection and, therefore, are known to the public authorities. So if the Government wish to do this, I do not believe that there is any practical difficulty in doing it, nor is there any conflict between the basic aims which the Government have set themselves in the S.E.T.
    I turn briefly to some of the practical effects of S.E.T. on these institutions. First, there are the anomalies, very similar to those mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) when he was talking about the independent schools. Some of these homes are charities and therefore are exempt from the S.E.T. Some are not, although they are fulfilling very similar functions to those which are exempt. Here we have an arbitrary and unfair incidence of the tax, with some getting a refund and others not. In the case of those which are not getting a refund, it is largely because their rules;

    1415
    or functions are drawn in such a way that they cannot bring themselves within the regulations laid down by the Charity Commission. Either they are run for a particular group of people or they are based on the mutual benefit of the contributors. In some cases they are trade unions. In other cases they are run for profit. Few of those which are run for profit make a profit. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) has given me two examples of old people's homes near Sheffield which, in theory, are run for profit but which find themselves in very serious difficulties and may not be able to continue in existence owing to the incidence of S.E.T.
    I come now to one or two examples of the types of institution involved. First, I mention the Association of Independent Hospitals. It has as members most of the non-profit-making private nursing homes, old people's homes and the like. Many of them are charities, but some are not. They are doing an immensely good job, in partnership with the National Health Service, in caring for the sick, the aged and the like. They offer a service to the community in some 11,000 beds and also out-patient facilities, which helps to relieve the very great pressure on the National Health Service.
    9.45 p.m.
    The type of work which they are able to do is wide ranging. It includes general hospital, orthopaedic hospitals, maternity hospitals, mental hospitals, homes for the incurable, homes for disabled ex-Service men, cancer and chest foundations, epileptic homes, religious homes, convalescent homes and homes for the aged and the chronic sick. This gives an idea of the wide range of the activities of these homes. Many of them have contractual arrangements with the National Health Service or with the local authorities whereby patients from the National Health Service or the local authorities are able to be treated in these homes.
    Those are merely a few details of the range of operations of the Association of Independent Hospitals. Which of them pays the Selective Employment Tax? I propose to quote only two examples. My ihon. Friends have a number of others which they will, no doubt, wish to give.
    1416
    The first and, perhaps, the most striking example of all is the Manor House Hospital, which is often referred to as the Trade Union Hospital, an institution of great value and great repute in the medical world, which will be familiar to hon. Members on both sides.
    The Manor House Hospital and its associated women's hospital have over 500,000 members throughout the country who subscribe voluntarily a weekly sum of 6d. or an annual subscription of £2 12s. 6d. Membership of the society is open to all. No charge is made for either in-patient or out-patient treatment, and the hospitals provide a comprehensive general hospital service with a complete range of ancillary departments. It is an excellent independent hospital doing a first-class job, yet under the Selective Employment Tax it has to pay £13,500 a year. Nobody, on either side, can suggest that an impost of that description is one which we can fairly ask a hospital like the Manor House to bear.
    Another example is that of the Printers' Medical Aid and Sanatoria Association, an association of 50,000 members who contribute 1s. 6d. a quarter. Membership is limited to those engaged in the printing and allied trades. It owns and operates a convalescent home which has 40 beds for men and 45 for women. They are mainly used for post-operative cases coming direct from hospitals. The Association also receives patients from the National Health Service at charges substantially below cost. In other words, it is in some degree subsidising the National Health Service.
    The burden to that association under the Selective Employment Tax is £1,400 a year. Here again is another institution which by no stretch of the imagination could be suggested to be rich or to be in a position to afford a burden of that description. Those are merely a few examples from the membership of the Association of Independent Hospitals.
    What about the British Hospitals Contributory Schemes Association? Here is the classic example of the tradition of self-help and thrift existing from the early days of the last century among weekly wage earners. That is what these organisations are about. They provide mainly cash benefits for their members while they are in hospital. The contributions are seldom more than 6d. a week. There are over 4

    1417
    million contributors, and they cover, with dependants, about one-quarter of the population of England and Wales. They run convalescent homes for their members and, in addition, since 1948 these associations have provided over £1 million for medical research and medical charities. That is a striking figure. It is a very substantial contribution from associations which are based on and run by weekly wage earners. Not only are they helping their members, but adding to the resources of the hard-pressed National Health Service.
    As a result of the Selective Employment Tax, these organisations of weekly wage earners find themselves bearing a burden of something like £40,000 a year, which is a very big burden for people in this category. To give just one example, the Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund has 447,000 voluntary weekly contributors. It owns and operates six convalescent homes for men and women and provides convalescence for children. In addition, it pays cash benefits to those having hospital in-treatment, and it also provides nursing home treatment, maternity facilities, home helps, spectacles, dentures and specialists' fees. The burden of a Selective Employment Tax on that fund is £6,000 a year.
    I hope that I have given enough examples to the Committee of organisations of modest means supported by people who are sacrificing sums out of their weekly earnings, in many cases in order that these institutions shall exist, and the very big impost upon them of the Selective Employment Tax.
    I come now to the provident associations. They are non-profit-making, limited by guarantee, but are not charities, and cannot be charities within the terms of the charity legislation. They provide insurance for hospital and general practitioner treatment. Here again, they bring not only additional financial resources into health, but provide additional beds and facilities. The largest of them is the British United Provident Association, which is paying £28,000 a year in Selective Employment Tax. The Private Patients' Plan is paying £5,000 a year. The Western Provident Association is paying nearly £2,000 a year.
    I hope that I have given enough facts and figures to the Committee to convey very strongly not only that the Govern-
    1418
    ment can accept this Amendment without damaging their concept of the Selective Employment Tax, because it does not affect the principle, but that there are no insuperable practical difficulties to accepting it.
    We are dealing here with organisations most of which are of modest means and are doing splendid work for the healing and care of the sick. They are doing it in partnership with the State services. Surely the Government with a sense of social justice and social priorities cannot any longer continue an impost of this kind on organisations such as those which I have described.
    Mr. J. J. Mendelson: In moving his Amendment, the hon. Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) has opened up a range of important problems which affect all parts of the country. I hope that he will bear with me if I begin by saying, not by way of criticism of his draftsmanship, that it does not necessarily help in trying to press a change upon the Government to make the circle too wide.
    I say this with humility, because, having tried to draft an Amendment on this subject, I know how impossibly difficult it is to remain in order and hope to have it called. But I suggest that, if Amendments are too widely drawn, that does not absolve the Government from their duty and responsibility, with the services of expert draftsmen, to find some way of refining the Bill, and exempting these organisations which, on good social and moral grounds, ought to be exempted.
    The hon. Gentleman said that the Chancellor mentioned a "shake-out" or transfer of personnel from service industries to others, but we should be fair to my right hon. Friend, particularly in his absence. When he introduced his tax, he said quite frankly that he had to find additional revenue and, dismissing the traditional methods of a penny on cigarettes or beer, he thought that he should try to find some new method. He did not start by saying that the purpose of the tax was a transfer or shake out, and it would be unfair to say that. He had to raise revenue, as any Chancellor would, as the Shadow Chancellor understood—he did not disagree at the time.
    To ensure that he would not be misunderstood, my right hon. Friend added

    1419
    that, although not in the first year, there might in later years be an additional effect of a transfer and he gave facts and figures to show why this was desirable— because, he said, of a developing disproportion in the number employed in service as against manufacturing industries, as well as to strengthen our export drive. He did not promise it in the first or second year.
    But, having established the Government's chief motive for the raising of additional revenue—to finance the Health Service and other things, which, I thought then and do now, was honourable—the Government then, through the Chancellor, gave a definite promise, that, in the first year, although the instrument might not be as refined as it should, it might be possible to refine it as it went along.
    I support the case of medical homes for old people, which is particularly urgent. In so far as I have an interest, I state it immediately. In Ecclesfield, in my constituency, there is such a medical home with 22 old people who are well looked after by the matron, who has been doing this for 17 years at great self sacrifice, and her staff. Technically, this home and many others are fee-earning institutions because the patients, who almost invariably need a great deal of medical attention, pay a fee. In many cases the fees are paid by relatives, some of whom reside outside this country. Often they assume this lifelong responsibility to look after the patient.
    10.0 p.m.
    I appreciate the difficulties involved in creating categories for this purpose. I understand that the Government are as concerned as anyone to do something for the sort of people I am mentioning. I also appreciate that it does not help to make a sweeping case about moral responsibilities on the part of the Government in this matter, because hon. Members who have held Government office know that when we were in Opposition we made similar requests and were told the hard facts of life. These facts often seem more important when one is in Government than when one is in Opposition.
    It could be argued that a wide-ranging Amendment which covered an enormous category—for example, nursing homes as
    1420
    a whole—should be resisted. Some nursing homes, such as the London Clinic, are making money hand over fist and, with charges like £35 a week, only the very wealthy are normally able to obtain a private room.
    Mr. Dean: For the record, the hon. Gentleman may like to know that the London Clinic is non-profit-making and is classed as a charity.
    Mr. Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman is making my case for me. It is a charity under a definition to which I intend to refer. One must be well off to get a private room in the London Clinic. The paradox is that, under this type of general category, some institutions—including many which require large sums of money before one can be admitted—are classed as charities while others are not. Some very able lawyers in the past have drawn up the papers applying to certain institutions, which are classified as charities.
    One must consider the other institutions, like the medical home for old people in my constituency, which do not come within that category. Representations about this have been made to the Government, who have replied, "We have not been able to find a way to incorporate such institutions". That is not good enough. When faced with such a situation, in which some institutions come within the definition of a charity while others do not, we must take steps to remedy this paradox.
    The incomes of some homes for old people are so small that hardly any profit is made. Although people pay fees, the profit margin sometimes barely covers the upkeep of the home, and in some years there is a deficit. I know of homes in which some patients are unable, after a time, to pay their fees. Often a way is found, unofficially and informally, to go on keeping them in these old people's homes, and usually nobody knows anything about this informal arrangement. The people responsible for running the homes "make do", and use some of their small margin of profit to provide for some of the patients who are unable doing an important job in the right way, to pay and who have no one to pay for them. That is an excellent example of and my right hon. Friend has the responsibility of searching for ways and

    1421
    means of relieving these people of their difficulty.
    I know that we shall be given the familiar argument that we are between two difficulties: the difficulty of defining a group—one cannot legislate for one home and one constituency, however fond one might be of the Member concerned, and, in any case, it would be introducing an undesirable political principle, and one might not be so fond of that Member, anyway—and the difficulty of the danger of opening the floodgates so wide—the term that is so often used in these cases, although I think that it is most inappropriate—that all sorts of organisations might be swept in.
    I therefore come to the root of the problem. The Government having given a definite promise to the House that this tax is an instrument that must be refined in future years, and having started on the road towards refinement in a very important respect, are now called upon to say what steps they are taking to make it possible to create an additional category in which these medical homes for old people would be included. The onus is not on the hon. Member for Somerset, North or his supporters, nor is it on my hon. Friends. Objectively, it may be extremely difficult to find a solution, but the onus is on the Government.
    A category of socially useful institutions causes a great deal of difficulty. We know that there is a serious shortage of these medical homes for old people. It is one of the normal duties of a Member to visit any home in his constituency run by the local authority for old people, and those of us who do this are always
    1422
    told, "We have a number of people here whom we would rather see elsewhere. This is not the best atmosphere for them." We know that the hospitals sometimes insist that some of the homes run by local authorities accept too high a proportion of people who are unwell when homes run by local authorities for old people are meant for healthy old people.
    It is very difficult for local authorities because often they do not have the staff —and it is not so good for the other people living in the homes—to take over these cases from the hospitals. We have a number of institutions which provide full medical attention and are run on a very small income, as is the case in Ecclesfield in my constituency. The old people there have 24-hour-a-day attention, so that the need for part-timers is not so great, because in order to provide constant attention there must be three shifts a day. Some part-timers are employed, but we must not think that by solving the part-time problem we are solving the whole problem.
    Therefore, where such homes for old people are doing, socially, the most useful type of work and making a direct contribution which helps the existing local authority homes, and where, at the same time, the amount of money needed to exempt them from payment of the tax will not be very large, is it not time for my right hon. Friend to give a pledge to us that the Government accept my general case, and will find ways and means at least at a later stage of the Finance Bill to give some relief by ex-ampting these homes from this tax, which imposes a serious and, in some cases, an intolerable burden?
    Mr. Braine: I support this Amendment, which was moved so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean). He advanced an argument which should have moved the stoniest heart on the Treasury Bench. Despite the fact that we have had no concessions up to now, I live in hope.
    Earlier today, after hon. Members in all quarters of the House had pleaded with the Treasury Bench to relieve the disabled and the elderly—two of the most vulnerable groups in the community— of the burden of S.E.T., the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour advanced a most extraordinary argument. I could hardly believe my ears. He said that to exempt these groups from S.E.T. would be to give them a subsidy. That, he said, without any trace of feeling of the enormity of what he was saying, would not be good for them. I hope that that cold-blooded argument, that unfeeling argument, will not be used against this Amendment. Knowing the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think it will.
    Here we are concerned with social service organisations which manifestly supplement our hard-pressed National Health Service, organisations which are often run without a profit. They bring additional resources of personnel and beds and care to the vital task of battling against ill-health. Nevertheless, because of a technicality on which the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) fairly touched, they do not qualify as charities. In this Amendment we are seeking to relieve such organisations which provide a service for the sick, for the handicapped, for incurables and in some cases the dying.
    Under the existing law, the Charities Act, 1960, such an organisation or institution can qualify as a charity only if it meets three requirements. First, it must benefit the community, or some section of it. Secondly, it must contain an element of altruism; it must not be intended exclusively for its own members. Thirdly, it must not be run for profit. That is the law of the land and I have no quarrel with it, but, as the hon. Member for Penistone said, speaking from knowledge of organisations in his constituency, many such organisations are clearly run for charitable purposes,
    1424
    and provide a socially useful and often indispensable service. Because of this they were accorded and retain charitable status under the Income Tax law and receive a relief of tax on the interest from their general income, but they do not qualify as charities under the 1960 Act.
    These include a whole range of private nursing homes, private hospitals, convalescent homes, homes for incurables and privately-run physiotherapy services. My hon. Friend referred to Manor House Hospital at Golders Green run by the Industrial Orthopaedic Hospital Society. There is also the Civil Service Sanatorium Society which administers Benenden Hospital in Kent, the Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund, which runs some of the finest convalescent homes in the country and has over half a million contributors. There is also the Hospital Saturday Fund and there is the London Area Mobile National Physiotherapy Service, a national service which expanded from London.
    10.15 p.m.
    All these, and many others like them, provide an indispensable supplement to the National Health Service. One might have expected the Minister of Health to have gone into battle for them. Yet, when the Chairman of the Association of Independent Hospitals wrote to him last October, he elicited the following reply from the Minister. The hon. Member for Penistone tried to help the Government by stating what he thought was the real purpose of S.E.T. The Minister of Health was quite candid about it. In his letter dated 25th November to Mr. Mark Baring, he said:
    "… in addition to raising revenue and broadening the tax base, one of the main objectives of the tax is to improve the structure of the tax system by redressing the balance between services, which have hitherto been lightly taxed, and manufacturing which has for a long time been subject to Excise duties and the Purchase Tax. There was certainly no question of penalising the many worthwhile service activities, but simply of correcting an existing bias in the tax system."
    This was not the Chief Secretary speaking. This was not the Chancellor. This was the Minister of Health, who is responsible for the continuing and incessant battle against ill-health, arguing the Chief

    1425
    Secretary's case for him. The letter continues:
    "In order to achieve this aim it was necessary that privately financed services as a whole should pay the tax without refund, and that reimbursement and other forms of compensation to them should only be allowed in the most exceptional circumstances."
    There was no recognition of the vital rôle these institutions play in helping the National Health Service. There was no recognition of their social value. There was no recognition of their humanitarian nature.
    Yet in view of the difficulties confronting the National Health Service and the relief which these organisations provide, there was surely a very strong case for the Minister of Health having argued on these lines, for him to tell his colleagues, "For heaven's sake, this is a field where exceptional treatment should be given".
    I want to be fair to the right hon. Gentleman. He ended his letter in this way:
    "But the Chancellor has by no means ruled out the possibility of adjustments later."
    The Chief Secretary has the opportunity tonight to make an adjustment. I hope he will shortly say that this is the first concession that the Chancellor feels able to make. If it was not meant sincerely, the Minister of Health was fobbing off the Chairman of the Association of Independent Hospitals with the phrase:
    "the Chancellor has by no means ruled out the possibility of adjustments later."
    How much later? The Chief Secretary has an opportunity to tell us tonight.
    I want to quote just one example to show how anomalous and unjustified is the Government's attitude. The L.A.M.P.S. National Physiotherapy Service is a non-profit-making organisation based on London. It is one of a number of similar organisations which provide physiotherapy to patients in their own homes, usually under the direction of a hospital consultant. Such arrangements have the advantage, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) well knows, because she is conducting a battle on this subject in Newcastle, of supplementing the hospital service. They have the advantage of providing rehabilitation treatment after a patient has left hospital. Above all, they have the advantage of making use of married women physiotherapists, who
    1426
    cannot, by the nature of their family ties, work in the hospital service. There is an acute shortage of physiotherapists. This is a very useful way of employing married women to supplement the hospital service.
    Clearly this is an organisation—there are many others which relieves the burden on National Health Service facilities. But, because this non-profit-making body is principally supported by a contributory scheme, taking the Charity Commissioners' definition literally, it lacks the necessary element of altruism to be regarded in law, under the Charities Act 1960, as a charity, although, incidentally, it gives charitable services to non-contributors. On the other hand, it has charitable status for the purpose, moreover, of the Income Tax Acts. Since the Charities Act, 1960, applies only to England and Wales and not to Scotland, there is the extraordinary anomaly that this organisation is subject to Selective Employment Tax because its headquarters is in London, though, presumably, if it were in Glasgow or Edinburgh, it would be eligible for reimbursement of Selective Employment Tax.
    Where is the equity, the principle, the justice or sense in that? I can scarcely wait to hear the right hon. Gentleman defend such a situation. It would seem to me to be only just and equitable that, in the Selective Payments Act, the expression "charity" had the same meaning and application in England and Wales as it has in Scotland. We can do nothing about that tonight, and I should be out of order if I pursued the matter, but this Amendment would right the anomaly. It would do justice to similar organisations. It would proclaim the widely held view in the House of Commons—we know that this is so, although there are not many hon. Members opposite present to support the hon. Member for Penistone in his argument—that it is high time we got our social priorities right.
    I trust that the Chief Secretary will be more forthcoming in his reply than he and his colleagues have been up to now. Here is a point at which he can be not only generous but just. I invite him to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: I support the Amendment. The case has been forcefully put by previous speakers,

    1427
    and I shall add only one or two points. My recollection of our discussions on the Selective Employment Tax last year is that much more emphasis was put upon the transfer of people from services to manufacturing than the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) suggested. As regards my own constituency, I can remember making the point to the Chief Secretary that there was no industry there to which people could be transferred, and that, if my constituents were not to be employed in nursing homes or whatever it might be, they would have to move a long way before they could find any employment at all. There is no prospect in my constituency of the tax having at least one of the effects claimed for it when we discussed it last year.
    I have in my constituency several institutions of the kind covered by the Amendment, nursing homes, convalescent homes and old people's homes. But here is the anomaly. I can walk down a road in my constituency and come across a series of these institutions. One on one side of the road is paying Selective Employment Tax while one on the other is not. What principle is there behind that, when there is no industry to which workers could go in any event?
    I could give several examples of the way it works, but here is just one. It has been put to me by one of my constituents, and the institution is one of those referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), the Civil Service Sanatorium Society, a society which provides 181 beds and also a children's centre. The society is providing a most valuable service, assisting the National Health Service to deal with some of its problems, and it provides that service for people who make a subscription to it. Yet that society is paying £12,000 a year in tax. That is the point I wish to put forcibly to the Chief Secretary.
    I cannot see how such an impost can be justified in a case of that sort. There are other examples in my constituency which I could direct to the attention of the Chief Secretary, but I shall leave it at that and commend the Amendment to the Committee.
    Mr. John Page: The case put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean),
    1428
    that special consideration must be given for the social services is so devastating that I think that that is why there are only three back-benchers opposite. Hon. Members opposite would be too ashamed to vote against the Amendment had they heard the rest of the debate.
    I feel passionately about the Amendment because this is Mental Health Year, and in the past weeks and months attention has been drawn to the problems of mental health. Like other hon. Members I have been seeing conditions at first hand.
    This is a tax on geriatric beds for mentally handicapped people. Anybody who read the article in the Sunday Times last Sunday and who has a member of his family in a State mental hospital must be worried. Those articles are not a general example of conditions in mental hospitals in this country, but conditions are desperate in them. There is a desperate shortage of beds and dedicated male and female nurses to look after these patients, who cannot help themselves.
    I see that at last we have somebody here at the Bar of the House from the Ministry of Health. One would think that a Government would say, "Thank God" that there are private individuals who will dedicate their lives to trying to help. The homes run by many couples in partnership are called profit-making but, how many people setting out to make a big profit for themselves would start by opening a small home with geriatric beds? I know that the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) agrees on this.
    This is a social service, and these people are finding the new burden of Selective Employment Tax, ruthlessly, unnecessarily and callously imposed upon them by a bureaucratic Treasury, almost more than they can bear. It comes at a time when their souls and bodies are exhausted by the efforts they are having to make to look after their patients, and they feel that perhaps they had better give up altogether.
    I beg the Chief Secretary to say that he will think again on this. We must ask him to do that, because with just a small change in the law people who are dedicating their lives to the service of the community in the most difficult circumstances would feel that there is some recognition from the general public, who really like to forget what they are doing.
    Mr. Charles Doughty: So strongly do I feel about the Amendment that I added my name to it last night. I cannot say why it does not appear on the Order Paper today.
    The Amendment has nothing to do with the general principle of Selective Employment Tax. Rightly or wrongly, S.E.T. was intended to take people away from industries that were not productive and place them in productive industries. I should not be in order in discussing now whether that has worked. One thing that the tax has hit hard—and wrongly —is the private nursing homes, hospitals and old people's homes.
    10.30 p.m.
    I know very well, because a number of my constituents have written to me about these matters, that the National Health Service, as is extremely well known, is under-bedded, over-worked, and unable to find places for people who ought to be admitted. We all know, Members on both sides know who have written to Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries to the Ministry of Health trying to get for our constituents admission to hospitals for necessary treatment which is not of an emergency character, that if these nursing homes, hospitals, old people's homes were closed down for any reason the National Health Service could not take them on.
    Most people nowadays are living, I am glad to say, very much longer; there are enormous advances in medical science and medical knowledge and medical research which very often is done in this type of hospital. In my constituency is a most important hospital which makes important researches into cancer. They have the very greatest difficulty in carrying on because their expenses, apart from this tax, are tremendously high, and the tax has been almost, and in many cases actually has been, the straw which has broken the camel's back.
    I do not believe it is the intention of the Government or the Chief Secretary that this type of institution should go out of business, that its patients and inhabitants should be thrown upon the National Health Service, which could not, in any case, receive them. The principle of Selective Employment Tax, be it a good principle or be it a bad one, would not in any way be breached if this Amendment were allowed, but a large
    1430
    number of excellent, very desirable, very well-run and very useful institutions might—I say only might, because in any case they have great difficulties—possibly carry on for a number of years more to look after the elderly, the sick, the convalescent. If the Chief Secretary says tonight he cannot accept the Amendment it must mean that the Government cannot have that interest in the sick, the convalescent and the elderly which any Government ought to have.
    Mr. Diamond: We have had a long debate, and I have heard many requests from hon. Members opposite who said they could scarcely wait till I got up to reply to the debate. If I do so now I hope it will be thought convenient to the Committee. I hope I do not make a mistake, but may I say to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean), who introduced the debate, that if this was his first appearance at that Box it was not obviously so; it was, I thought, too polished a performance to be the first. We are delighted to see him there in any event.
    The hon. Gentleman made a polished speech, but the Amendment itself is far from being polished and therefore, although I am not going to rely on drafting deficiencies, because nobody would wish to do that, I have first, in order to remove those parts which are removable before dealing with the essence which has been brought out in all the speeches, to refer to the end and the reference to Surtax and the tax paid in respect of employees. I could not follow that reference for the life of me. I do not see how the employees come into it, as this is a tax on employers and there is no means of knowing which employees pay Surtax. In saying this I assume that that is not the essence and the heart of the Amendment.
    Mr. Dean: I think perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that was put in in order to get it in order.
    Mr. Diamond: I am sorry. It is so long since I was doing that very same thing myself that I had forgotten one has to put in a lot of nonsense to be able to make a speech. I am glad that that is common ground.
    What the Amendment does not refer to is profit making. The hon. Gentleman

    1431
    does not say in the Amendment whether profit-making bodies are excluded or not. There is, of course, in most people's minds a very marked difference between a profit-making body and a non-profit-making body in this field. Therefore, I will assume that if there are people— I am sure that they include hon. Members on both sides—who would not wish this advantage to go to profit-making bodies, we are talking of non-profit-making bodies.
    I hope that no one would seriously suggest that any hon. Member on either side or any member of any Government is not anxious to help those who are ailing or sick and need help and those who cater for them. Many hon. Members, like I myself, must have had the privilege to serve in a voluntary capacity in such work, and I am grateful for the interest that it gave me.
    We have to consider the matter in relation to the Selective Employment Tax. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) made by far the most constructive speech in the debate and began by pointing out that the Tax was clearly stated by the Chancellor and by me on many occasions to be a method of raising revenue. If anyone does not like the tax—and I gather that there are one or two people who do not —then of course they have to say which other method of raising revenue they would have preferred. Suppose that we had gone on the ordinary method of raising revenue through Purchase Tax and other taxes. One must then consider what effect this would have had on those we are considering. The effect would have been substantial and in many cases, I dare say, heavier. It would have depended on how the money was raised. If the same figure of £180 million to £200 million had been raised in the form of Purchase Tax, one can imagine that nursing homes, for example, in paying for their linen and other things, for which they would get no relief, would have been worse off. But one does not know. All I am saying is that this is an alternative method of raising revenue and that it is unrealistic to say that we could have done both without S.E.T. and without other alternative revenue and therefore that these bodies would not have been called upon to pay some form
    1432
    of tax. The point I am asking the Committee to bear in mind is that it must, in considering alternative ways of raising revenue, consider how these would have affected the bodies in question.
    The second question is what is the effect of the tax on these bodies. Some interesting figures were given by the hon. Member.
    I listened carefully and worked them out as he gave them. He talked first about the printers' organisation in which the printers collect together and pay for their own hospital treatment by contributing 1s. 6d. a quarter. He said that there are 50,000 of them and that they pay £1,400 in S.E.T. That means that each has to pay an extra half penny a month.
    Then the hon. Gentleman referred to the Birmingham Saturday Fund, with under 500,000 members. One of his hon. Friends said that it was over that figure. I will take it as being 500,000. The hon. Gentleman stated the amount of S.E.T. it pays. It means that each member is called upon to pay an additional farthing a month to cover the cost.
    I am bound to say that these figures are probably right because the Chancellor was approached by the Chairman of the Hospital Savings Association on the same point and in his reply pointed out that the association's liability to S.E.T. was equivalent to something less than one farthing a month from each contributor. This is the level which we are discussing, something about ¼d., or perhaps ½d., a month additional payment by the contributors who group together to pay for their own services in this way.
    Mr. Braine: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in addition to providing services for its contributors, the organisation to which he is referring provides extensive services for non-contributors? Does not that somewhat vitiate his argument?
    Mr. Diamond: I am delighted to hear that. To the extent that it provides services for non-contributors and carries on non-profit-making activities, it would be most likely to qualify to be a charity. We can deal immediately with that, because last year both sides of the Committee took the view that for charities it would be right to go beyond what one

    1433
    would normally do for a charity and to exclude from its responsibilities that of paying S.E.T.
    Mr. Braine: Has that happened?
    Mr. Diamond: Of course it has happened. All that a charity has to do is to apply to get its refund and it gets its tax refunded. If a charity had been called upon to pay Purchase Tax, if that had been an alternative form of raising the revenue, then the charity would have been called upon to pay that additional tax and there would have been no refund. We all accepted that charities, which are most carefully defined in our law and which were most recently defined in 1960 by the Government of which the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) was a member, have to be protected and that they are quite separate organisations which have certain responsibilities. We all tried very hard to find some category which could be relied upon to be acceptable to both sides of the Committee and to the community as a whole, and we decided that it would be charities. We have, therefore, eliminated charities from paying S.E.T., although we would not have eliminated them from alternative sources of raising the revenue. The net effect is that as a result of S.E.T. charities are better off than they would have been if we had raised the revenue in a different form.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone posed a difficult question. He accepts most of the argument which I have been putting hitherto, but he says that there are certain bodies—I imagine that he would say that they were exclusively non-profit-making bodies, because I do not imagine that he would wish profit-making bodies to be excluded from the normal burdens of taxation which we all have to bear—which carry on certain functions and which ought to be entitled to be relieved from this tax, although not from alternative forms of tax.
    I shall be frank: the Government have thought very hard and the only category which we can find which we believe would be acceptable and of which one could possibly draw a sustainable definition is a charity. It is perfectly simple for a body which is carrying on a function of this kind and which is non-profit-making and which allows a large section of the
    1434
    public, not only its own members, to obtain these services, which may be expensive services—I do not know what the fees at Eton are at the moment, but they are very expensive, and yet Eton is nevertheless a charity and, therefore, gets its S.E.T. repaid, like every other charity—to apply to be registered as a charity if it is a body in England or Wales, or to go through the appropriate machinery and apply to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland if it is in Scotland to be treated as a charity for these purposes and therefore to get a refund.
    Mr. Reginald Eyre: The Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund is registered as a company not for profit and is exempted by the Board of Trade from the obligation to carry "Limited" after its name, as a consequence of its activities which are entirely within the range of those which are entitled to be registered as charities. It is the mere absence of any application to become registered as a charity which has resulted in this difficulty. Would the right hon. Gentleman accept that an organisation of that kind, carrying on work which is entirely within the definition of charity, but which need not come within his strict legal definition, should be exempt from the obligation to pay this tax?
    Mr. Diamond: The hon. Member must make up his mind what case he puts to me, because he is putting two. The first is that this fund is capable of being registered as a charity if it applies, to which the answer is that it should apply. The second case he puts is that this Hospital Saturday Fund is not capable of being accepted as a charity because it does not comply with the statutory rules. It must make up its mind whether it wants to work as a charity, in which case its rules must be altered, or as a mutual organisation and its members will have to pay an additional ¼ a month to cope with this tax.
    Mr. Eyre: Will the Chief Secretary accept that the Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund is entitled to become a charity and is in correspondence with the Charity Commissioners. Will he not also accept, as a principle, that certain organisations which are entitled to become charities should be morally entitled to be exempted?
    Mr. Diamond: The hon. Member now makes a third proposition, that although the organisation to which he refers is about to become and is capable of becoming a charity, I should accept that certain organisations not registered should be exempted not on legal but on moral grounds. That is a difficult question. The older I get, the less I like to pass views on morals. If an organisation passes the rules this House agreed to, it could become registered as a charity and become entitled to refund of Selective Employment Tax paid.
    My hon. Friend said that the Government had a responsibility, and I accept it, to see that organisations should be free of tax if they satisfied the public conscience. My right hon. Friend and I have sought for a definition and the only one we can think of which would be satisfactory to both sides of the House and the community would be that of a charity. We have no recommendation to extend this beyond charities.
    If one extends beyond charities, one gets into frightful difficulties. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone has already mentioned nursing homes. I have had experience of this on the General Nursing Council. There are nursing homes and nursing homes.
    In all the circumstances, I do not think this is an Amendment I could recommend to the Committee.
    Mr. T. L. Iremonger: What a pettifogging, nasty, mean little speech! I think the Committee is anxious to proceed with this business with
    dispatch. I merely want to add one point which will take little time. My hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) would have said this, had it not been that I particularly wanted to, because I have here a letter from a constituent who writes as the Treasurer of the Civil Service Sanitarium Society. I want to put this on record, in supplementation of what my hon. Friend said. I am sorry to say that this organisation must still be left at this stage with this intolerable burden.
    The Treasurer of the Sanatorium Society says:
    "This tax costs our Society in excess of £12,000 a year. The sum is large enough to interfere with the Society's policy of extending its health benefits on behalf of 800,000 persons covered by contributions of members. In treating patients, mainly for respiratory conditions in the 181 beds in the hospital, we not only relieve the National Health Service of a vast expense, but contribute to the economy of the country by bringing about a great improvement in the health of the many hundreds of workers each year."
    I am sure that the Committee will not resent the few moments that it has taken me to add that.
    The Chief Secretary said that as he gets older he gets something or other. What the whole Committee would like me to say, and it is a great temptation for me to expand on this at great length, is that the older he gets the less fit he is to sit on that Bench.
    Question put, That those words be there inserted:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 89, Noes 138.

    Division No. 357.]

    AYES

    [10.51 p.m.

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Eden, Sir John

    Kirk, Peter

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Kitson, Timothy

    Blaker, Peter

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Body, Richard

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Fortescue, Tim

    Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

    Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

    Braine, Bernard

    Glyn, Sir Richard

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Brewis, John

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Gurden, Harold

    Monro, Hector

    Bryan, Paul

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    More, Jasper

    Burden, P. A.

    Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Clark, Henry

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Corfleld, F. V.

    Hastings, Stephen

    Nott, John

    Costain, A. P.

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Cawley, Aidan

    Hiley, Joseph

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Crouch, David

    Holland, Philip

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Crowder, F. P.

    Hordern, Peter

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Cunningham, Sir Knox

    Hunt, John

    Prior, J. M. L.

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Pym, Francis

    Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

    Jcnkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Doughty, Charles

    Kimball, Marcus

    Royle, Anthony

    Drayson, G. B.

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Scott, Nicholas

    Temple, John M.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Worsley, Marcus

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Wylie, N. R.

    Smith, John

    Walker, Peter (Worcester)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Ward, Dame Irene

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Webster, David

    Mr. Anthony Grant and

    Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Mr. Reginald Eyre.

    NOES

    Anderson, Donald

    Hattersley, Roy

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Archer, Peter

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

    Hilton, W. S.

    Morris, John (Aberavon)

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Barnett, Joel

    Hooley, Frank

    Norwood, Christopher

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Horner, John

    Ogden, Eric

    Blackburn, F.

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    O'Malley, Brian

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

    Oram, Albert E.

    Booth, Albert

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Boston, Terence

    Howie, W.

    Orme, Staniey

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Huckfield, L.

    Owen, Will (Morpeth)

    Bradley, Tom

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Padley, Walter

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Hunter, Adam

    Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

    Pardoe, John

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

    Pentland, Norman

    Coleman, Donald

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

    Concannon, J. D.

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

    Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

    Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

    Reynolds, G. W.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Richard, Ivor

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Lee, John (Reading)

    Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

    Dewar, Donald

    Lector, Miss Joan

    Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

    Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Roebuck, Roy

    Dickens, James

    Luard, Evan

    Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

    Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

    Lubbock, Eric

    Ryan, John

    Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

    Ellis, John

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Sheldon, Robert

    Ennals, David

    McBride, Neil

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Ensor, David

    MacColl, James

    Snow, Julian

    Faulds, Andrew

    MacDermot, Niall

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

    Fernyhough, E.

    Macdonald, A. H.

    Tinn, James

    Fitch, Alan (Wlgan)

    McKay, Mrs. Margaret

    Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

    Walden, Brian (All Saints)

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Mackle, John

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Mackintosh, John P.

    Wallace, George

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Weitzman, David

    Freeson, Reginald

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Wellbeloved, James

    Gardner, Tony

    Mellish, Robert

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Whitaker, Ben

    Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

    Millan, Bruce

    Whitlock, William

    Gregory, Arnold

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton. Test)

    Winnick, David

    Hamling, William

    Molloy, William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Harper, Joseph

    Moorman, Eric

    Mr. Charles Grey and

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Mr. Ioan L. Evans

    Mr. Eric Lubbock: I beg to move Amendment 34, in page 29, line 10, to leave out "thirteen" and to insert "six".
    I do not wish to detain the Committee for long at this time of the evening, but I wish to remind the Committee that last year I moved an Amendment which would have provided that any person employed out of the United Kingdom for a single contribution week should be exempted from the Selective Employment Tax. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who replied on that occasion, said that if the Government had had a completely free hand in the matter, they would not have extended the tax to those employees whom I was seeking to exempt
    1438
    and that it was not their purpose to impose a tax on employees who were employed abroad. Indeed, the only excuse given by the hon. and learned Gentleman for imposing such a tax on persons employed outside the United Kingdom was that he had not had the opportunity to investigate whether it was possible to exempt them under the machinery provided for the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax.
    I must say that this is one of the most ludicrous examples of how wrong it was to introduce the Selective Employment Tax without having given adequate consideration to the classes of persons who might be exempted if that exemption was in the national interest; and I can think

    1439
    of none more entitled to have been exempted than those covered by this Amendment. They make a very considerable contribution to the foreign exchange earnings of this country abroad, and when I raised this matter last year, I referred to those in the civil engineering and construction industries, in oil and in the airlines, and those engaged in any firm undertaking concentrated selling abroad.
    I am not completely wedded to the period of six weeks mentioned in the Amendment, but I must ask why has the Chancellor accepted a period as long as 13. In the operations to which I referred last year, it was agreed that it would be a good thing to have a shorter period because some of them could be undertaken in a far shorter period than 13 weeks. Why so long a period? I do not want to detain the Committee at this hour, and I shall be satisfied if he will tell me that he will consider this on its merits.
    Six weeks is far more suitable. It would extend the concession to a great many people whose work is of great value to our economy and, unless we can be told of some insuperable difficulty, I cannot understand what can be the Government's objection. I also cannot see why this should pose any difficulties administratively if we substituted six for 13 weeks and, with this very brief explanation, I hope that the Minister will be able further to save the time of the Committee by saying that he will accept my Amendment.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Social Security (Mr. Norman Pentland): As the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) has explained, the object of this Amendment is to reduce from 13 weeks to six the length of the qualifying period after completion of which Selective Employment Tax will be refunded in full for each week of a continuous period of employment abroad, so long as the National Insurance contributions are payable by the employer. Liability for such contributions is usually for the first year of employment abroad. Before discussing the substance of this Amendment I should, without in any way seeking to labour the point, say that it would not, in fact, achieve its object unless
    1440
    "fourteenth" in line 15, on page 29 of the Bill was amended to read "seventh".
    Apart from this technical defect, the cost of the Amendment might, we believe, be something of the order of £150,000 a year;but it is not on the cost that I wish to base my case. Before the Selective Employment Tax was introduced last year, we made it quite clear that it was not our purpose to impose a tax on employees employed abroad and that the tax extended to them merely as an incidental consequence of the link with National Insurance contributions.
    This year, we propose to relieve the employers of those employed abroad by making provision for refunds, but the refunds are designedly limited to those employees who are genuinely employed abroad. That is the real point at issue. No case has been made for extending them to people who are really home-based but who go abroad for short periods as part of their duties. There is no reason to treat them differently from those employees in the service industries who never go abroad.
    We are seeking to distinguish the employees who will attract refund by use of a 13 weeks qualifying period of employment abroad, and by adding safeguarding provisions to ensure that the continuity of employment, for purposes of the refund, will not be treated as broken even though an employee returns for short spells on business or is sick or on leave either here or abroad. These safeguards should make it unnecessary for an employee based abroad to have to serve the qualifying period twice merely because of some brief or incidental return to the United Kingdom. The Clause thus distinguishes overseas-based employees by reference to a qualifying period of appreciable length and also ensures that it would not have to be served twice in what is effectively the same period of overseas service.
    The Amendment accepts the principle of a qualifying period, but would reduce the length of the period to six weeks. After careful consideration, we believe that this would be too short a period to distinguish those employees who are in a real sense "employed abroad" from others who go abroad only now and again, particularly if linked with the present safeguarding provisions which enable the qualifying period abroad to be

    1441
    treated as continuous despite short returns to this country. Withdrawal of those safeguarding provisions would mean that some refunds for genuinely overseas based employees would cover shorter periods than if the length of the qualifying period remained at 13 weeks.
    Despite the hon. Gentleman's persuasive arguments, therefore, we are satisfied that the present provisions are better adapted to their purpose and better balanced than could be secured with a six-week qualifying period. I hope that he will accept that explanation; otherwise, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I beg to move Amendment No. 125, in page 29, line 15, to leave out from 'which' to 'began' in line 16.
    The Parliamentary Secretary has explained the rationale of the qualifying period for this relief, and we accept that. There was force in the argument of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) that it should be shorter, but the Government are not prepared to accept that. Granted that there should be a qualifying period, why, once the qualifying period is completed, should not the entitlement to refund be dated back to the point at which the employee first went abroad?
    The Clause as drafted means that although an employee has done his 13 weeks abroad, it is only for the 14th week onwards that the employer will be entitled to the refund. He is entitled to nothing for the first 13 weeks even though for the whole of that period the employee may have been fully and entirely based abroad, squarely within the intention of the relief which is given. Why, once he has established his residence abroad, cannot the refund be backdated to the time when he went abroad?
    The Chief Secretary said at the outset of his speech on the last Amendment that the Government had made it clear from the beginning that it was not their intention to impose a tax in respect of employees based abroad but that this was brought in merely by a sidewind. In subsection (2) of the Clause they are going part of the way to effect their intention and to avoid the sidewind, but by some nasty gust that has caught them
    1442
    in the small of the back they have left these first 13 weeks in. Why should the employer suffer the tax and get no refund when the employee will have been based abroad for the whole of the period in question? My Amendment would leave out this tiresome side gust and would entitle the employer to refund from the beginning once the qualifying period had been achieved.
    Mr. MacDermot: The hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) finds it impossible to see what the reasons could be for this provision. May I try to explain the reasons to him?
    There is no immense question of principle at stake here, and obviously the matter could have been dealt with in one of two ways—either in the way suggested in the Amendment, or in the way which we have adopted and to say that the employer will be entitled to the refund in respect of the employee from the time when he becomes a qualifying employee qualifying for refund, having done his 13 weeks' service.
    I can see the argument which the hon. Gentleman has advanced, namely that once the employee has done his 13 weeks and has established his status, the employer should be entitled to refund for the whole period. The difficulty which would arise on doing that would be this. What people consider most unfair is when they compare their own situation with that of someone in a situation very proximate to their own and find a different treatment. That is the injustice—in inverted commas—which hurts. If one were to do what the hon. Gentleman suggests, the effect would be that an employer who had an employee who worked only 13 weeks abroad would get no refund. The employer who had an employee who worked anything over 13 weeks—say, 14 weeks— would then become entitled to a payment of £17 10s.
    It is the employer who gets no refund at all when there is such a marginal difference who would feel this was unjust. This would lead to demands that one should avoid that sharp cut-off by some kind of tapering provision, or some kind of partial refund for employees who work less than 13 weeks abroad. One could not accede to those demands without undermining the concept of the 13 week qualifying period.

    1443
    In effect, what happens in our proposal is that the tapering operates the other way by enabling the refund to be made for each week after the 13 qualifying weeks. There are not a great number of people involved here, and the amount of money is not very great. It is impossible to estimate with certainty, but the best estimate we are given is that something of the order of £250,000 would be involved. It is impossible to be dogmatic in advance of experience, but it seems to us reasonable to assume, on the basis of previous experience, that an absolute, rather than a repayable, qualifying period will provide the most satisfactory borderline to draw. It is purely an attempt to draw the borderline which would not give a sense of injustice which led to this provision.
    11.15 p.m.
    Sir Douglas Glover: The Financial Secretary's reply was the most extraordinary thing I have heard since the start of our consideration of the Finance Bill. His argument boiled down to saying that, because not many people were involved and because they could not make much of a row, nothing need be done.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman should realise that these people are entitled to complain when they are not given this advantage. He must live in a strange world. Most of my friends are delighted if somebody they know is given a taxation concession. They do not complain about it, but ask their hon. Member to see if he can get them the same advantage for the following year. I do not object, mainly because I object to taxation, anyway.
    The Financial Secretary did not argue the real case adduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin). If a man is abroad for 13 weeks and one day he qualifies. If this means, in the thinking of the Government, that after such a time he is employed abroad, should he not be exempt from S.E.T. for the whole of the 13 weeks he is abroad? The hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was more ineffective and unconvincing than any I have heard adduced in previous Finance Bill debates.
    It appears that the Financial Secretary considers that one can deal with this matter in one of two ways; either by
    1444
    way of justice or by way of injustice— and he has decided to proceed by way of injustice. It seems that he believes that the number of people involved is so few that they need not be taken into account because their vote against the Labour Party will not be significant.
    People who are abroad for 13 weeks will probably be abroad for much longer. The date they went abroad should be operative time from which their firms should be exempt from S.E.T. After all, if a man becomes domiciled abroad for tax purposes, the date on which he went abroad is, if he has been away long enough, the operative date. Why should not that apply in this case?
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move Amendment No. 120, in page 30, line 3, to leave out from 'week' to end of line 7.
    This Amendment should appeal to the hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin), because he told us yesterday that he has a dislike of prolixity and went on to explain that he was referring to the written word. Here is a case where we have found that we were originally unnecessarily prolix because we had included a provision which could be deleted without altering the provisions relating to the refund of S.E.T. for these employees serving overseas. We find that the provisions of paragraph (a) alone are sufficient to ensure that the qualifying period does not have to start afresh after any temporary return the employee may make to the country, so we can delete paragraph (b).
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: All I can say is that we entirely approve.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Question proposed, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin rose—
    The Deputy Chairman: Under Standing Order No. 47, in my opinion the principle of the Clause and any matters arising therein have been adequately discussed in the course of debate on the Amendments proposed thereto, and I therefore propose to put the Question, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Jenkin: On a point of order, Mr. Irving. I have only one very small comment to make. This is the only Clause on this tax. We have covered only one or two aspects which, in a sense, are not in the Clause, and we have not had very much on what is in it.
    The Deputy Chairman: I have ruled, and must adhere to that Ruling.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Schedule 12. — (SUPPLEMENTARY AND ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO SELECTIVE EMPLOYMENT TAX.)
    Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move Amendment No. 121, in page 75, line 26, after 'Act', insert:
    'other than employment in the Post Office Savings Bank'.
    The effect of the Amendment is to enable the Post Office Savings Bank to receive refunds under Clause 24 of S.E.T. in respect of part-time workers or employees overseas. It corrects a defect in the drafting. By virtue of Section 3 of the Selective Employment Payments Act, the Postmaster-General gets a refund in respect of staff but the Post Office Savings Bank is excluded as being excepted undertaking in Part 2 of Schedule 1. That is an exception for those parts of nationalised industries and the public services which, in effect, are operating in competition with or on a similar basis to bodies in the private sector.
    Since this body therefore does not normally qualify for the refund, it obviously ought to be entitled to get the refund for its part-time or overseas workers. It was thought that this intention had been achieved, but it was overlooked that, because these are civil servants, they fall within the exception in paragraph 2(c) of Schedule 12. The effect of the Amendment will be to remove that barrier.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Cranley Onslow: I beg to move Amendment No. 165, in page 77, line 48, at the end to add:
    15. The Minister by whom any register of establishments is maintained under section 7(1) of the principal Act shall not refuse to exercise his power by virtue of section
    1446
    10(3)(a) of that Act to register a part of an employer's business as a separate establishment by reason only of the fact that the persons employed on the part of the employer's premises proposed to be treated as the site of that establishment are supervised by a person working in some other part of those premises.
    I can probably best explain the background to the Amendment by reading extracts from two letters which, I think, speak for themselves. The first is from a dental surgeon in my constituency, and it reads:
    "I have a dental laboratory attached to the premises employing one dental technician who manufactures our dental appliances.
    My accountant suggested that I should contact the local Labour Exchange to seek the premium or at least the refund upon this tax for the technician.
    There is only one other practice in the town that has their own dental laboratory (employing two technicians). Being friendly with one of the partners I suggested that they should apply at the same time for relief on this tax.
    We both filled up the relevant form S.E.P.1 and forwarded them to the Labour Exchange. These forms contained in essence the same information, especially on the activities of the laboratory.
    Within a few days I had a letter saying that my application had been refused. Much to my amazement and also that of the other practice, a week or so later they were informed that they were to receive the premium on their two technicians."
    My constituent appealed, I think rightly, against the decision, but was subsequently informed that his appeal had been refused. The reasons given to him were:
    "I have been informed that, in order to qualify for division, the activities carried out in an establishment must be separately managed or supervised.
    It follows that to meet this requirement the activities must each have more than one man mainly engaged on this activity … and the previous decision must stand."
    My constituent, not unnaturally, told me that the situation appeared to him to be absurd. I am bound to say that I share his view. Indeed the situation described might almost have been invented by the late Gerald Hoffnung, the man who made us all familiar with the sad story of the bricklayer and the barrel of bricks. There seems to be much the same degree of improbability about it.
    The Minister of Labour did not see it that way. He was good enough to write a letter to me on 28th April, saying:
    "The Selective Employment Payments Act, Section 10(3)(a), gives the Minister by whom

    1447
    any register of establishments is maintained under Section 7(1) of the Act the authority, if he thinks fit on the application of an employer, to treat different parts of premises occupied for the purposes of his business by that employer as constituting the sites of different establishments. As I am sure you will realise, a power of this kind can only be seen to be exercised fairly if the Minister responsible for it states and follows clear rules for its use."
    Having explained the criteria the Minister goes on to say:
    "While the first two parts of the criteria are satisfied in the case of your constituent's establishment the final test which requires separate organisation, including separate supervision, is not met and I therefore cannot agree to the application to divide the premises. As one person only is employed in the dental workshop, the inference is that he is supervised by the partners who control the practice as a whole. If it can be shown that this is not the case, for example, that the technician is self-supervising, I would be prepared to reconsider my earlier decision.
    Where on the other hand more than one employee is working in an establishment it is open to the employer to establish that one worker is supervised by the other and that the ' separately organised' test is satisfied."
    This may be satisfactory to the Minister but it is not to me or to my constituent either. Even at the end of this careful explanation by the right hon. Gentleman the situation still appears absurd. It is not at all clear that the Minister even holds to his own rules. I have no evidence that the second establishment which employs two men was in fact called upon to establish that one of the technicians supervises the other, let alone which. And what is meant by "self-supervising"? Is there any definition in any Act of what this is?
    I will not dwell further on these points tonight, and merely make the general point that this tax seems to be accepted as the most ludicrous piece of fiscal legislation since the window tax—and I shall not say more about that because the window tax raised a lot of money and bore particularly heavily on the middle classes and the Financial Secretary might be tempted to reintroduce it.
    In an effort to bring my specific point out I first tabled new Clause No. 39, which was drafted as best I could, in my primitive and untutored way, to meet these difficult rules of order. Fortunately, more expert hands have since got to work on it and the finely filigreed phraseology of Amendment No. 165 is the result.
    1448
    If this Amendment is accepted it would remove from the existing law an outstanding absurdity which must be lower than the depths to which even the advocates of the S.E.T. are willing to descend. It is obviously nonsense that an establishment which succeeds in getting its work done with one man should not receive its money back, let alone a premium, while an establishment which employs two men, possibly to do the same job as one because it may not be as efficient, receives the premium for employing both of them.
    11.30 p.m.
    Sir D. Glover: The Committee has been delighted by the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) moved the Amendment. I have a similar case in my constituency. The people concerned are not dentists but garage proprietors. In passing, I recommend to my hon. Friend that he would probably bring his constituent within the line if the chap with one technician made him "managing director/technician unincorporated". It is just another example of the complete absurdity of the way the Selective Employment Tax is working.
    I wrote to the Minister of Labour some time ago about a garage in my constituency. It seems to me that the question whether an establishment is separate or not is determined by whether there is a door between the two activities which is either locked or in some way made to separate them. The garage concerned produces wrought iron gates. It employs not one person but about 10. My constituent thinks that all those 10 people, who are undoubtedly in manufacturing, should be subject to the premium. But they cannot be because the garage is a service, and the wrought iron gates are made by some people in a building which is one with the garage building.
    Basically, this is the same argument as the one about the dental technician. If the Government want to bring any sense into the Selective Employment Tax, they ought to do something about these absurd anomalies. The best thing to do is to get rid of the tax altogether. The longer we discuss it, the more we find anomalies, foolishness and idiocy, and the example which my hon. Friend gave in his brilliant speech is, I should think,

    1449
    the supreme idiocy of all in any Government legislation. Application is made in respect of two technicians, both doing the same work. One is accepted as within the rule and the other is not.
    Similar anomalies exist in a wide variety of cases. The garage in my constituency is another example. Naturally, my constituent feels a great sense of injustice. He is now paying an added cost for the 10 people producing wrought iron gates, which puts him at a disadvantage against all his competitors, who, presumably, are in separate buildings which qualify. I hope that the Minister will take this matter seriously and accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Hattersley: The two examples which hon. Members have put to the Committee both arise naturally, inevitably and properly out of the workings of Section 10 (3,a) of the Selective Employment Payments Act. Section 10 (3,a) allows establishments to be divided for S.E.T. purposes, in whatever way the "appropriate Minister" thinks fit. It was the good fortune of the Minister of Labour, in the first example quoted, to be the appropriate Minister who decided whether a split was possible or not.
    Section 10 (3,a) is not only simple but it is intended to be a help to industry. It is intended for those firms which literally carry on two activities, a major activity not qualifying for premium or refund and a minor activity which may qualify. Were they not entitled to split the two activities, such firms, because of the rules governing the payment of selective employment premiums, would receive no premium in respect of any of the activities within the single establishment. The split is designed to enable two genuinely separate activities to be considered separately in order that the minor activity may qualify for either refund or premium if that qualification is, in general, appropriate.
    The Committee will understand that it is only reasonable that there should be criteria laying down how a genuinely separate activity is to be discerned and putting before the House and industry precisely the terms and conditions by which separate activities are to be recognised.
    Sir D. Glover: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that, by its nature, that is a discrimination against the smaller firm, giving an advantage to the bigger firm?
    Mr. Hattersley: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me to the end of my argument, he will see that that is wrong. It is discriminating, if he likes to put it in those terms, in favour of the firm with two genuinely different activities. When the Amendment was made—it was not incorporated in the original proposals— it was accepted by industry as a genuine concession designed to help those firms with two separate activities carried on in one establishment. It is only reasonable that if there is to be a split there should be some criteria by which it can be decided. The three criteria were announced by my right hon. Friend to the House and have since been published, so that no one should be in doubt as to what constitutes separate activities.
    First, the activities must be genuinely different in kind. I would have thought that the repair of motor vehicles and the production of wrought iron gates comes within that category. Secondly, they must be carried out in separate parts of the establishment. I understand from the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) that that is the criterion which his constituent failed to meet. Thirdly, the two activities must be separately organised, by which my right hon. Friend means that they can be separately identified in the employer's records and are separately managed and supervised. Even at this late hour, those three criteria will not be regarded by the Committee as unreasonable ways of deciding whether an undertaking is two separate activities or a single activity.
    Mr. Onslow: Is the Minister implying that one of the two dental partnerships in my constituency to which I referred is not genuinely carrying on a separate activity? Can he see a distinction? I cannot.
    Mr. Hattersley: I see a genuine distinction under the third heading, that is, that they are separately organised, which means that they must both be identified separately in the employer's records and separately managed and supervised. I shall deal with the hon. Gentleman's case later, but I am sure that he understands

    1451
    that the argument is best advanced by dealing with the general application before coming to the specific application.
    The general principles are the separation according to those criteria. Hon. Members will well understand that if we do not lay down rules which distinguish separate activities, if we allow activities which are different from the major one carried out in the premises to qualify for premium, without there being a clear case that it is organised on a separate basis, we are eroding the establishment rule. We are paying premiums, making refunds and charging taxes not according to the establishment heading but according to the occupation of individuals. The entire operation of the Selective Employment Tax, certainly its secondary purpose—the redistribution of employment resources between manufacturing and service industries—is dependent on its being organised according to establishments rather than according to individuals.
    I shall not weary the Committee with the enormous technical complications of charging this tax on an individual rather than establishment basis. But I remind the Committee that there are many manufacturing firms which, if they were charged tax according to individuals rather than according to establishment, would be very much worse off under the tax than they would be according to the present rule.
    The hon. Gentleman does not advance it in these terms, but the example he gave was numerically small.
    Its application as a general principle would erode the basic establishment rule on which the tax is based. That is the logical extension of his point. If we calculated according to individuals rather than establishments, that is the only possible outcome.
    Turning to the hon. Member's specific case, I reiterate the information he has already received in writing from my right hon. Friend. If it is possible to demonstrate that a single individual does conform to the three criteria we laid down, the same individual is to be treated as a separate establishment. I hope that he will accept that very many single individual establishments have been so classified. I hope that he will also understand that if the Ministry lay down rules
    1452
    and establish criteria we have an obligation to stick to those criteria and to hang on to those rules.
    Therefore, I can only advise the Committee this evening not to accept the Amendment. While its clear implications are not understood by the Front Bench opposite, I can only reiterate that the Government feel that the establishment rule is essential to the operation of the tax, and the proposal of the hon. Gentleman would have the effect of eroding it.
    Mr. John Smith: I shall not detain the Committee more than a moment—
    Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: Why not?
    Mr. Smith: —but I do not want the Government to go home thinking that this is an isolated example, a freak case. These cases are bound to occur among very small businesses. I have a letter here from a constituent of mine who lives over his shop. He is in a small way of business. He is just the sort of man I should like to see prosper. The Committee may not think his business particularly important. He says that his business is that of a hair cutter and manufacturer of hair lotion
    "for the use of our distinguished clientele. We also send these various preparations all over the world"—
    so he is an exporter as well—
    "wherever our clientele have moved to."
    And I can well understand their moving. He of course got into the same sort of troubles as my hon. Friend's constituent, and the same sort of answer, that the way in which the Act will affect a particular employer will depend, broadly speaking, on where his establishment falls in the standard industrial classification. He is in much the same boat as the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow).
    In another part of my constituency there is another small business; again, a small firm, run by a few people, and employing very few people; and the business is split in an unusual and unforeseen manner. That firm was turned down. They write that they applied to the industrial tribunal and appeared in front of it and that
    "the Chairman said that the Act was clearly not meant to refer to businesses such as ours."

    1453
    I took this up with the Board of Trade and got a letter which simply said among other things
    "This may indeed be a hard case."
    But they lost.
    I feel that the reply we have just been given illustrates a flaw in this legislation. I am not concerned with the purposes of this tax. It may be to raise revenue; it may be to redeploy labour. It may have moral overtones. I am not concerned with that. There may indeed be something to be said for having a proper payroll tax, or, indeed, a payroll tax selective regionally. I am not concerned with that. But there is nothing to be said for a tax which discriminates between individuals, and if the Government must discriminate between individuals for heaven's sake let the discrimination be done by human beings. We heard a lot just now from the Minister not that it was individuals who mattered—but the establishment rules; and here discrimination is being done not by human beings but by a machine, by a paper machine, the Standard Industrial Classification.
    We have heard tonight and this afternoon of little else except hard cases. There are going to be many more. There are bound to be many more because the Government have committed what I regard as the real crime against civilisation—of subjecting man to the machine. These cases are not decided on their merits but by reference to this Standard Industrial Classification which was devised for quite another purpose. The Government have got hold of this bed of Procrustes and are going to stamp us all into it, the old, the disabled, and so on, whether we fit it or not.
    We shall obviously never correct this tax by tinkering with it because it contains this deadly flaw of subjecting man to the machine instead of making the machine serve man. In the end it will have to be repealed, but as we cannot expect Jericho to fall at the first blast of the trumpet I hope that as a first step the Government will heed the cases which we have put forward and put them right on behalf of those small individuals, who are not large firms which can look after themselves, but small people who write in their own hand and live over their shops and thoroughly
    1454
    deserve all the help which they can get to be kept in business and doing what they are.
    11.45 p.m.
    Sir D. Glover: I rise only to say, having listened to the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary, that I never thought that, in the same week that we have had the communiques from Cairo, Beirut and Amman, in this House I should hear a more absurd reply than those communiqués.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: This farce deserves a wider audience and I promise the Parliamentary Secretary that it will get it. We have a personal liking for the hon. Gentleman, as he knows, but he must not come to the Committee, at whatever time of night, and hope that he can satisfy us with the sort of nonsense he gave in answer to the cogent case put by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow). I hope that the Press will resurrect this small debate from HANSARD. It may take a day or two to find it but they will do so and realise how ludicrous the administration of this Act, in these illustrations at least, has become.
    I say directly to the hon. Gentleman that it is his job as a Minister to act as a Minister and not as a rubber stamp. There is a double duty upon him in this case because, by the operation of the guillotine, we never discussed in the House Section 10(3), on which he has relied. If we had had a chance to debate it, it may well be that the collective wisdom of the House could have improved it and he might have been able to give a better answer. But the point is —I am sure he will recognise it, although I say this more in sorrow than in anger —that there is a special duty upon Ministers to act as Ministers and interpret these provisions in an ordinary and sensible way. For the hon. Gentleman to have listened to my hon. Friend's speech and then blandly to have said that to agree to the Amendment would erode the principle is not good enough.
    Mr. Hattersley: It is true.
    Mr. Macleod: With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, I say to him that I have more experience than he — indeed more experience in his Department than any man still active in public life today.

    1455
    I know what can be done. It is not for a Minister merely to take a brief or order that is put in front of him. He must exercise his initiative, and if a matter is seen to be absurd it is his duty to put it right. It is not good enough for the hon. Gentleman to pretend that he is compelled to do this by some mystic order of Parliament or conceivably of some official. It is his business to act as a Minister.
    If my hon. Friend will allow, we would like to return on Report, with the full strength of the Front Bench, to this matter. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will. come to that debate armed with the sort of illustrations which show the absurdity of the rigidity of the Minister and his Department in this matter. I do not suggest to my hon. Friend that he should withdraw the Amendment. We should have it negatived and allow that to stand for the moment. But we are determined that the answer of the Minister shall be exposed in all its frailty to the public and also on Report stage when we reach it. I hope that the Minister will reflect and consider between now and Report on whether he could bring a little common
    1456
    sense into the administration of a very difficult Act.
    Mr. Onslow: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) for his support and also for the support of my hon. Friends. I want to read a further extract from the last letter I have had from one of my constituents. He says:
    "My practice being mainly National Health I am used to this muddled approach to problems by bureaucracy and so not really surprised at the decision."
    I am not surprised, but I am a little disgusted. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his promise that we can have another go at this on another occasion.
    Amendment negatived.
    Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
    To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Iain Macleod.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

    ADJOURNMENT
    Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]
    Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes to Twelve o'clock.

WALES
  Welsh Economic Council (Health, Welfare and Education)
  Welsh Economic Council (Health, Welfare and Education)
  Freight Services
  Freight Services
  Fishing Centers
  Fishing Centers
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Secondary Schools, Shropshire (Projects)
  Secondary Schools, Shropshire (Projects)
  Teachers (Starting Salary)
  Teachers (Starting Salary)
  Medical Research Council (Mental Illness)
  Medical Research Council (Mental Illness)
  University Students (Mental Health)
  University Students (Mental Health)
  O and A Level Certificates (Examination Standards)
  O and A Level Certificates (Examination Standards)
  Molecular Biology (European Co-operation)
  Molecular Biology (European Co-operation)
  Medical School (Stoke-on-Trent Hospital Group and Keele University)
  Medical School (Stoke-on-Trent Hospital Group and Keele University)
  European Oceanography Programme
  European Oceanography Programme
  Welsh College of Agriculture
  Welsh College of Agriculture
  Technical Colleges (Overseas Students)
  Technical Colleges (Overseas Students)
  Secondary Education, Plymouth (Comprehensive Schools)
  Secondary Education, Plymouth (Comprehensive Schools)
  Science and Technology (Commonwealth Students)
  Science and Technology (Commonwealth Students)
  Chinese (A Level Teaching)
  Chinese (A Level Teaching)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Voluntary Service Overseas
  Voluntary Service Overseas
  Private Investment (Percentage of National Income)
  Private Investment (Percentage of National Income)
  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS Electricity (Price Increase)
  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS Electricity (Price Increase)
  Secretary of State (Newcastle Visit)
  Secretary of State (Newcastle Visit)
  Price Increases
  Price Increases
  National Plan (Table 2.2)
  National Plan (Table 2.2)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Equipment (Capital Expenditure)
  Equipment (Capital Expenditure)
  Metropolitan Police Headquarters (Number)
  Metropolitan Police Headquarters (Number)
POST OFFICE
  Recording Devices (Legislation)
  Recording Devices (Legislation)
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Television Licences (Retirement Pensioners)
  Television Licences (Retirement Pensioners)
BOARD OF TRADE
  Spring Bank Holiday
  Spring Bank Holiday
  New Factories, Wrexham and Ceiriog (Employment)
  New Factories, Wrexham and Ceiriog (Employment)
  Film Industry (Monopolies Commission's Report)
  Film Industry (Monopolies Commission's Report)
  Companies (Shareholdings)
  Companies (Shareholdings)
AVIATION
  British Overseas Airways Corporation (Finances)
  British Overseas Airways Corporation (Finances)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Middle East (Arms Sales)
  Middle East (Arms Sales)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Swimming Pool, Dagenham
  Swimming Pool, Dagenham
  Rate Rebates
  Rate Rebates
  YEMEN (POISON GAS)
  YEMEN (POISON GAS)
  VIETNAM
  VIETNAM
  FOREIGN SECRETARY (ARTICLE)
  FOREIGN SECRETARY (ARTICLE)
  MIDDLE EAST
  MIDDLE EAST
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Potatoes (Prices)
  Potatoes (Prices)
  LAW COMMISSION (REPORTS)
  LAW COMMISSION (REPORTS)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Banks (Profits and Dividends)
  Banks (Profits and Dividends)
  Nationalised Industries (Fixed Assets)
  Nationalised Industries (Fixed Assets)
  Public Corporations (Assets)
  Public Corporations (Assets)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Departmental Buildings and Vehicles, Wales (Welsh Language)
  Departmental Buildings and Vehicles, Wales (Welsh Language)
  Community Care Services
  Community Care Services
  Mental Health Services (Voluntary Organisations)
  Mental Health Services (Voluntary Organisations)
HOSPITALS
  Hospital Management Committees (Courses)
  Hospital Management Committees (Courses)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Remand Homes, Kingston-upon-Hull
  Remand Homes, Kingston-upon-Hull
  Sexual Offences (Children)
  Sexual Offences (Children)
  Departmental Buildings, Wales (Welsh Language)
  Departmental Buildings, Wales (Welsh Language)
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (INK PADS)
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (INK PADS)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (STRANGERS' GALLERY)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (STRANGERS' GALLERY)
RAILWAYS
  Workshops (Division of Activity)
  Workshops (Division of Activity)
TRANSPORT
  Departmental Buildings and Publications, Wales (Welsh Language)
  Departmental Buildings and Publications, Wales (Welsh Language)
  Advisory Committees
  Advisory Committees
  Stansted Airport
  Stansted Airport
  Transport Holding Company (Powered Units Tonnage Capacity)
  Transport Holding Company (Powered Units Tonnage Capacity)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chester

GRANTS TO EMERGENT COUNTRIES
3.5 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many emergent countries which since the grant of independence have later departed from true Constitutional Government are still in receipt of any subvention or grants from the United Kingdom.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, if the noble Lord will be good enough to let me know more precisely which countries he has in mind I will endeavour to let him have all relevant information.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, able to give any indication whether the designation of emergent countries is in any way affected by the continuance or the reverse of Constitutional Government? Further, can he give any separate categorisation of those immediate emergent countries, such as Sierra Leone, Nigeria or Tanzania, which have either broken off diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom or are presumably in a state of rebellion against Her Majesty's Government?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I do not think that any useful purpose can be served by trying to categorise countries according to those which, in the noble Lord's opinion, are constitutionally governed and those which are not. Because a country breaks off its relationship with this country, it does not necessarily mean
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that it is not under a constitutional form of government.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, since the amount referred to is very large—a total figure of some £80 million was recently given—has not the time come when we should reconsider the generosity of these grants to countries which are no longer constitutionally governed?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, before any contribution is made to any country all factors are taken into account. It is not necessarily a factor against the giving of aid that its form of government has changed.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government this question? Are they aware that the common people of Portugal look upon our payments to Zambia with an unfavourable eye because they say that these funds are used—or release other funds to be used—for arming infiltrators who cross the Portuguese border and commit rape, robbery and arson in unprotected places against the persons of our oldest ally? Would it not be worth while for Her Majesty's Government to withhold contributions to Zambia until they are satisfied that that Government is doing everything in its power to prevent that kind of thing from happening?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, as I understand it, many factors are taken into account before a decision is taken as to the amount of economic aid given to any country. I am not aware, however, whether the opinion of Portugal is among those factors.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, I agree with giving aid to all the former Colonies, in the context of the fact that we gave them independence, but does not my noble friend think that, with the pressure to join the Common Market, the situation now is that we are attacking the independent nations when they have teething troubles, rather than helping them to make a multiracial society within the Commonwealth?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I quite agree with what I understand my noble friend to be saying; namely, that some of these countries, to which certain noble Lords take exception, are going through the kind of difficulties which we in this

519
country went through hundreds of years ago.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord's answer to me means that Her Majesty's Government are indifferent to the kind of thing about which I have complained?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, would be good enough to read in the OFFICIAL REPORT what I actually said.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether a Constitutional Government includes the House of Lords?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am not certain about that, but I do know that they are not among the recipients of economic aid.

60 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT ON A.45 ROAD
3.12 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state what consultations were held by the Minister of Transport before announcing their intention to impose a 60 m.p.h. speed limit, on a trial basis, on the A.45 road between Thurlaston roundabout and the Coventry boundary.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the police and the Ministry's Warwickshire Area Road Safety Unit were consulted. The proposal will shortly be advertised, and any representations will then be considered in the usual way.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when a new principle such as this is introduced by the Minister, it is at least customary to consult the various interested organisations? Am I to assume that this was not done?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, having been a Minister in this particular Department, will be aware that the Ministry are under no statutory rule to consult anyone. My
520
right honourable friend has consulted these two organisations which have been carrying out a survey over this road for a length of some 25 miles. On this strip of road there is a very heavy accident rate: I think there have been some 769 personal injuries there in the last three years. This speed limit is being introduced in an effort to reduce the accident rate. I stated in my original Answer that the representations can be made, and these will no doubt result in conversations.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it was precisely because of the period that I was in the Ministry, to which he referred, that I asked this Question? May I ask the noble Lord whether he realises that I am aware of what are and what are not the Minister's statutory duties, and that in many of these matters there are indeed statutory obligations on the Ministry to consult? Am I to take it that on this matter the Minister did not consult the National Road Safety Advisory Committee or its working party on speed limit policy?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in regard to this strip of road, I have already given the two bodies which my right honourable friend has consulted.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for his answer? May I ask him whether he is further aware that we now have 30 m.p.h., 40 m.p.h., 50 m.p.h., and 70 m.p.h. speed limits, and that advisory speed limits on corners are creeping in? May I ask him whether this is not in the nature of a new principle, which may lead to confusion becoming worse confounded? Also, would it be possible for Parliament to be informed more widely when such new tiers of speed limits are introduced?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, this is a new speed limit, of course, but it is thought that this limit is best for this particular stretch of road. I think that the noble Lord is going a little wider than the original Question, but I should be happy if he were to raise this matter on another occasion, because it has considerable bearing on our traffic safety problems.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that,

521
rather than fixing a new speed limit, which at best is arbitrary—it may be too much or too little—a far greater improvement in road safety would be achieved on this 25-mile strip of road if he could introduce more mobile police patrols? They have a far greater effect than any number of speed limits, which are not always enforced very well.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I certainly would not disagree with the noble Lord.

PHENYLKETONURIA IN NEW-BORN BABIES
3.15 p.m.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many local authorities are now arranging the testing for phenylketonuria of all new-born babies; and what steps they have taken to assist all doctors in the early diagnosis of this disease.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, all local health authorities in Great Britain are now testing for this condition. My right honourable friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland have given guidance to medical officers of health about testing. They have emphasised that local arrangements depend for their success upon close liaison with family doctors and the pædiatric departments of hospitals in order to facilitate diagnosis and treatment and to help parents to deal with the problems of management and dieting, consequent on diagnosis.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, but is he aware that this dreadful disease, although rare, can be treated successfuly only if it is diagnosed early? Is he also aware that several parents are fully prepared to collaborate with the Ministry to help in every possible way to save other parents from the ordeal which they themselves have had to undergo?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I agree with what my noble friend says. As he knows, a great deal of work is being done
522
under the auspices of the Medical Research Council to evaluate the various forms of speedy testing, and we all hope that a successful outcome will emerge. I am happy to say that the incidence of this disease is very small—I am advised one in 20,000 births at present.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, does my noble friend realise that once a doctor has seen a case of this disease he is likely to remember it for the rest of his life? Would the Ministry be prepared to collaborate in producing a film on this disease for showing to local medical societies to impress on the doctors the importance of early diagnosis?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, as I have said, I agree with my noble friend that early diagnosis is essential. I think he is aware that it is the practice to ensure that every child shortly after birth is tested for this disease. I agree with him about its distressing character. As noble Lords will be aware, it is an inherited disease which, if left untreated, will result in varying degrees of mental deficiency. If we can get the additional co-operation of parents it would be a good thing, and I will gladly consult with my noble friend to see what might be done. I know of the work which he is doing for the Mentally Handicapped Children's Association.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for his reply and for the offer he has made to collaborate further in trying to prevent these unnecessary cases of this disease occurring.

HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION FOR MENTALLY HANDICAPPED CHILDREN
3.18 p.m.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many hospitals now provide accommodation exclusively for children who are mentally handicapped; what is the total number of beds available, and what increase in their number is planned during the next ten years.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, in England and Wales there are 29 hospital units providing in-patient treatment exclusively for mentally ill or seriously maladjusted children, and one unit where children and adolescents are accommodated together. There are 525 places in these units. In addition, there are beds in general children's hospitals or departments in which psychiatric treatment is given to those children who do not require the special facilities of a children's psychiatric unit. There are also out-patient facilities for children and a number of day hospitals for the treatment of children who are able to remain outside hospital for part of their time. The plans which Boards have already made in their hospital building programmes, will, when implemented, provide nearly 550 more beds in children's psychiatric units. In addition, there are plans to provide psychiatric treatment for some children in children's departments of district general hospitals, and to increase day hospital facilities.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, I would ask him whether he is aware that many parents are still being told that they will have to wait three or four years before their children can be admitted into hospital? Could not the Government take rather more energetic measures to try to prevent the necessity for such disappointing statements?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am not aware of the actual length of time that some children may have to wait, but it is true that there is a shortage of accommodation of this kind for the mentally handicapped child. Even if the programme to which I have referred is completed, there will still be some shortage of accommodation. However, I would point out that it is not simply a question of accommodation. If we could get more child psychiatrists they would be able to do more in the preventive field, this would relieve the pressure upon accommodation.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is being done to provide adequate nursing facilities for these children, as many hospitals, particularly outside London, are short of suitable nursing staff?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think this is possibly a wider question and one that is bound up with the recruitment of nurses.
LORD ST. HELENS: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware of this large body of medical opinion which feels that it is a bad thing that mentally handicapped children should be segregated? May I hope that his Answer did not imply that these children are being kept on their own?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I will certainly look into this point. I am not aware of what the noble Lord says. What I certainly feel—and I think he will agree—is that what we really need is more preventive work. That is why I place emphasis on the provision of more child psychiatrists, who could work in the field, probably making it unnecessary for some of these children to become in-patients at all.

THE MIDDLE EAST
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Government a Question of which I have given Private Notice; namely, whether they will make a further Statement on the affairs in the Middle East?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with permission, my noble friend Lord Chalfont will reply to that Private Notice Question shortly after 3.30 p.m. this afternoon.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.23 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD rose to move, That, until the House adjourns for the Summer Recess, Standing Order No. 35 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be suspended so far as is necessary to give Government Business, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of my noble friend the Leader of the House. This Motion and this Standing Order are normally moved formally, and much closer to the Parliament Recess. On this

525
occasion perhaps a few words of explanation should be given why we are moving it so much earlier.
Irrespective of their political complexion, Governments tend to have a very heavily congested business programme at this time of the year. This is not the fault of Governments, but is mainly due to the financial privilege of the Commons, which goes back to the 17th century. This Motion will give us a degree of flexibility in the arrangement of our business. I think the House should be aware that the Government have in mind the need for taking two Wednesdays in July, which normally are days for Private Motions, for the consideration of important Government business. But if this situation should arise, I can give the House the assurance that it will be done only after consultations through the usual channels. I think the House should also be aware that it is very likely that we shall have to sit on three Fridays during July, in order to take two Private Members' Bills in which I think there is considerable interest in your Lordships' House.
It may also be necessary to ask the House to agree to shorter periods between stages of Bills. If this is necessary, we shall seek to do it between the First Reading and the Second Reading, in order to ensure that there is adequate time between the Second Reading and Committee stage. I think the House attaches great importance to this. But here again, if there is any reduction, this will result from negotiations through the usual channels. But we will seek by the use of Notices of future business to give Members of the House as much knowledge as possible of our programme.
In regard to the Bill that is now before us, the Criminal Justice Bill, I have had consultations with the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, and others to see whether we can find a satisfactory programme in order that we may complete the Committee stage by Tuesday of next week. We suggest to the House that to-day we should go up to Amendment No. 38, which is Clause 28; that on Monday, the 12th, we should take first Amendment No. 39, Clause 30, and then continue up to Amendment No. 86, which is the end of Part IV of the Bill. I understand that if we do this we should
526
be able to complete the Committee stage of this Bill at a relatively early hour on Tuesday. But this does mean sitting to a rather late hour on Monday; and, naturally, dinners will be provided. I beg to move.
Moved, That, until the House adjourns for the Summer Recess, Standing Order No. 35 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be suspended so far as is necessary to give Government Business, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day.—(Lord Shepherd.)
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, it would appear that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is having unusually early trouble with another place in producing a large quantity of legislation during the last few weeks of the Session. As regards his suggestion about Wednesdays, I should like an assurance from the noble Lord that this suggestion of his will in no way affect the rights of the Opposition to raise debates, and that they should be first business on Wednesdays, in the usual way.
Secondly, on the question of Fridays, I have had very strong representation made to me by noble Lords on this side of the House that they do not feel that the habit of sitting on Friday should be allowed to grow. We feel that we are, to a certain extent, an amateur House as compared with the other place, and it would be better to sit late on the days in the middle of the week rather than to overflow on to Friday. Also on the question of Fridays, the two Bills which I think the noble Lord has in mind are both highly controversial Bills. I think it would be better to take these in the middle of the week and, if there is such a thing as some uncontroversial Government business, that this should be taken on the Friday instead.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I very much sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, in his troubles. While I appreciate that one or two Wednesdays may have to go, I hope he will endeavour to keep them to a minimum. I should like to associate myself with what was said by the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, about business on Fridays. We should be extremely careful about encroaching on these days, and certainly

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not for Bills which can be called controversial.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as one who is not one of the "usual channels", may I put in a plea for Private Members' business? This Motion, I gather, will give the Government the right to take over the business and exclude Private Members' business if they find it necessary to do so. This, as the noble Lord has said, is unusual at this time of the year. There is one Motion in which I am particularly interested, as the noble Lord knows, and that is the Motion on Hong Kong. We have had a serious situation in Hong Kong. The matter is still, one might say, not by any means cleared up. Several noble Lords in the House have approached me to know whether it is possible to have a debate on that particular Motion. I would ask the noble Lord, who is always very helpful in these matters to those of us who are not the usual channels, to see what he can do to have a debate on Hong Kong and its relationship with China before the Summer Recess, if this is at all possible.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, when we are going to sacrifice all our Wednesdays, I should like to put in a word for the people on the Cross-Benches. They do not very often attempt to occupy a Wednesday, but when they do it is generally on something they feel to be of vital importance. I think that if that should occur they should get what is called "friendly co-operation" from the Government.
3.30 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if I may, I would thank the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, for his very kind remarks. May I say to the noble Earl that the difficulty which the Government are experiencing to-day is no different, I believe, from the troubles and difficulties which he experienced when he was Chief Whip, but I am sure he will recognise that our position has been aggravated and we do not yet know to what extent we may be in greater difficulties in view of the situation in the Middle East. As the noble Earl will know, we have been asked to provide time for a debate on the Middle East and we are very ready to do that if it becomes necessary. We never know, too,
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at this stage, when other matters will need to be raised quickly. Therefore, in making my plans I must try to give myself a degree of leeway, so that if those debates are required time will be found for them.
It is not a case of taking all the Wednesdays, as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, suggested. I think we may need only two Wednesdays, by arrangement through the usual channels. I can assure noble Lords opposite that it is unlikely that their Party will suffer in this matter. I think it is more likely that the criticisms will come from my colleagues behind me, because I believe that the two Wednesdays we have our eyes upon are two Wednesdays which normally would have gone to my colleagues on these Benches.
With regard to the request of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, for a debate on Hong Kong, naturally I will see what I can do, but at the moment we have a very full programme. Of course, a great deal depends upon your Lordships and how long we take on legislation. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, in that I should prefer to sit late into the evening or into the night and not have to sit on Friday. But the noble Earl will acknowledge that we on this side of the House are relatively small in numbers. We do have a difficulty late at night to obtain a quorum. I know that occasions arise when Governments can be caught napping without a quorum, and we then do not have the full time that we should have had; but I will not go over the past. But if I were to have an assurance from noble Lords in all quarters of the House that, irrespective of the lateness of the hour, all noble Lords who were present in the Chamber would co-operate to provide a quorum, I should be a great deal happier in my mind.
In regard to sitting on Fridays and taking these two major Bills, I recognise that they are controversial. I should certainly be happy to take them on Monday, Tuesday or Thursday, and if the noble Lord is prepared to take Government business on Friday—and I do not think that much of our business is going to be controversial—then we should be very happy so to do.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, highly though I regard the noble Lord, I have no sympathy for him whatever in

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this matter. The congestion of the Parliamentary timetable is due, as it always is, to the fact that the Government will not start enough Bills in this House, and as a result we get congestion towards the end of the Session. If the noble Lord had listened to what I myself and my colleagues have been saying for the last three years he would be in no need to have sympathy from me at all. I would just ask the noble Lord this, and would ask him for an assurance. If we pass this Motion, it will mean that the noble Lord can deprive the Opposition of its July Wednesdays. I ask him, therefore, whether he will be good enough to give the assurance that he has no intention of doing so.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that it is not for him to offer me sympathy; I would not expect it. If the noble Lord is again coming back to the difficulties which all Governments since I have been in this House have experienced at this time of the year, I would say that the root cause of the trouble, if my researches are correct, goes back to 1671 and 1678, which those in the House of Commons will recognise as years relating to great historic Resolutions of another place in regard to financial privilege.
As to the assurance for which the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, has asked, it is perfectly true that I can play ducks and drakes with the House in terms of this Motion. But the noble Lord has been here longer than I have and he well knows that, again irrespective of the Government's political complexion, the Govment are answerable to the House and the House itself controls the Business. If, therefore, I try to deprive noble Lords opposite, which I have no intention of doing, of a debate, the power certainly lies in their hands.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, may I make one more appeal to the Government about Friday sittings. I really think that a point of great principle is raised in the Statement we have just heard. I know that another place habitually sits on Fridays, but the other place is in a very different position from your Lordships' House in one important respect: the Members are paid, and paid really rather highly, for sitting, while
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your Lordships are not paid. I can say this because I am in the happy position of being sufficiently well endowed with this world's goods for it not to make a very great difference to me. But there are a great many Peers who are not—young Peers working for their living and keeping their wives and families going by the work they do—and many live far off in Scotland or Wales, a great distance from London. It is going to make their lives almost impossible, and I should like very much to see the House sitting later to have these important debates.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I would not disagree in any respect with the words of the noble Marquess. I would, however, put it to him that I have a responsibility in programming business to see that I give sufficient time for the House to be able to consider all the legislation that comes before us; and this I am endeavouring to do. If I can avoid Friday sittings I will. It may be unnecessary to sit on Fridays; it depends on the progress and speed with which we deal with legislation before us. But I thought it right to give a warning to the House—not a threat, but a warning—as to the circumstances before us. Certainly if we could avoid a Friday sitting I should be one of the first, and most happy, to do so.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question: when we are likely to rise for the Summer Recess; whether there is any constitutional or other reason why this House should rise simultaneously with the House of Commons; and whether in the circumstances there are not strong arguments for our continuing to sit into August, particularly as the August Bank Holiday has now been removed from the first week-end in August and the grouse mature rather later these days?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am quite sure that if I were to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alport, I should lose the entire sympathy of your Lordships' House. There are no constitutional reasons, so far as I know, why this House should not sit longer into August than another place, but, having been in business management here for some time, I would say there is no hope.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MIDDLE EAST
3.38 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. The Statement is as follows:
"I have endeavoured to keep the House very fully informed about developments in the Middle East, but there is little I can add to-day. The situation is very fluid and it is simply not possible at this moment to amplify the general picture I gave yesterday.
"The immediate necessity is to obtain an effective cease-fire. The position on this is that the Israel Foreign Minister said in the Security Council yesterday that his Government was ready to accept the Security Council Resolution calling for a cease-fire at 8 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time yesterday provided that the Arab Governments did the same. So far the Arab Governments have refused to do the same, with the exception of Jordan, who have announced their Government's acceptance. But I must tell the House frankly that there are very conflicting and disturbing stories about what is actually happening on the Israeli/Jordan front.
"Even though the United Arab Republic Government have not yet accepted the cease-fire, the Israel Government have announced that they are halting the advance of their forces in the Sinai Desert short of the Suez Canal. But I also have reports of resumed fighting on this front.
"We still have no positive response from the Soviet Government about arms supplies and it is clear that for the time being there is no immediate prospect of a general embargo. We are therefore reverting to our normal practice of scrutinising applications for arms in each particular case, and we are naturally doing so particularly carefully in the present circumstances.
"The only material change in the oil situation since yesterday is that the Libyan Government have suspended all oil exports. It is not entirely clear whether this is a temporary suspension
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due to strikes by oil workers. And here let me say that I understand the pressures that are operating on these Governments in this highly charged atmosphere. The Arab Foreign Ministers were due to meet to-day in Kuwait to discuss the implementation of the resolution on oil supplies recently passed at the Baghdad Conference, but I have just learned that the meeting has been postponed. Now that it has become so patently clear to everybody that we were not involved in the conflict, I trust that they will decide to withdraw the actions which they were misled into taking against us.
"We have examined the dangers in each of the territories where the safety of British subjects arises. We have made plans, some of which are already being operated, to ensure the safe evacuation of British subjects from these areas. In a situation where airfields have been closed and others have been damaged this is clearly not an easy operation, but it is proceeding.
"My greatest concern is with the British subjects in Jordan. Evacuation by road would be too dangerous; and evacuation by air involves the difficulty I have mentioned. However these problems will be overcome.
"I will of course continue to report developments to the House when anything of significance occurs. Meanwhile we are in close contact with all parties concerned.
"Our immediate objective must be of course to make the cease-fire effective. The House should be under no illusions that this may still take some time. Once this has been achieved we must move on to consider how a more permanent settlement in the Middle East, on an equitable basis, can be reached."
That, my Lords, is the end of the Statement.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for repeating that Statement. May I ask him whether he could amplify some words that he used? I think he said that there were:
"conflicting and disturbing stories about what is actually happening on the Israeli/Jordan front".

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I wonder whether the noble Lord could explain exactly what he means. Does this concern what is happening internally in Jordan in regard to the King, or is it renewed fighting between Israel and Jordan?
Secondly, I am rather surprised that no mention has been made of the closure of the Suez Canal. I asked the noble Lord yesterday what was being done about it. It may be, of course, that at this particular moment it would be impossible to use the canal, but I should have thought it extremely important, from the point of view of this country, and the fact that it is an international waterway, that the United Nations should reiterate the importance of keeping the Suez Canal open.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, the situation in Jordan is obscure in a number of ways, not only in the sense of the rumours about internal differences in Jordan and the movements of King Hussein. All I can say is that our Embassy in Amman informed us last night that there is absolutely no truth in the rumours that King Hussein has left Jordan. In addition to that, the operational position in Jordan is still obscure. It is by no means certain that fighting has stopped, although the Jordanian Government has accepted the United Nations call for a cease-fire.
As to the Suez Canal, it is not possible to say at the moment whether traffic through the canal has been, or is being, stopped. According to our best estimates, there are between 17 and 20 ships of different nationalities in the Suez Canal. Five of these ships are British. A North-bound convoy of tankers came out of the canal yesterday. None of these tankers was in fact British, but your Lordships will appreciate from that that the situation in the Suez Canal is not clear. Of course I take the noble Lord's point that the Suez Canal—as I said in your Lordships' House yesterday, in a comment on the legal situation—is an international waterway. And we shall bear this in mind in the sort of negotiations which will go on continuously, but especially after the cease-fire has been made effective.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for keeping the House informed.
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There are two questions which I should like to ask. First, is there any information as to what is happening on the Syrian front? Secondly, is it possible that the non-acceptance of the cease-fire on the Israeli/Jordan border is due to the fact that the Jordanian Army is commanded by an Egyptian? Would it be possible to get more direct communication between King Hussein of Jordan and Israel to see that this fighting stops?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, to deal with the noble Lord's first question, there is no clear information about that. We know that the Syrian Government has not accepted the United Nations call for a cease-fire, and there are reports of operations taking place between Syrian and Israeli forces in that sector. I take the point about the situation in Jordan, and it may well be that some of the confusion still existing there derives from the fact that the Jordan forces are under supreme United Arab Republic command. We shall certainly bear that fact in mind in our future dealings in this area.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the noble Lord has said in the Statement:
"Now that it has become so patently clear to everybody that we were not involved in the conflict, I trust that they"—
that is the Arab States—
"will decide to withdraw the actions which they were misled into taking against us."
Of course I hope that that will be so. But has the noble Lord seen in this morning's papers, since the denials which were discussed yesterday, that new allegations have been made by the Egyptian Government that British Canberra bombers took part yesterday in the action over Suez? I am not asking the Government to react too shrilly or indignantly to these further lies. But do the Government appreciate that this may be not only a question of stopping oil supplies for a few months: it may be the beginning of a very serious propaganda campaign to be built up, based on falsehood, in order to cover the defeat of the Arab armies and to rebuild similar sinister forces for the future?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, this possibility is very much in the Government's mind. I think it is inevitable that a lie of this sort should gain some circulation in Arab countries. The latest

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allegation, of which I have seen reports, that Canberra bombers have been in action in the theatre of operations, is as false and as outrageous a lie as any previous allegations that British forces are taking part in this battle. They are not, they have not, and they will not. It would not be in my nature to be shrill or indignant about this, but I hope that I can at least be firm and unequivocal in denying this story. I realise that it is not enough to deny it in your Lordships' House. We shall deny it throughout the world, through the normal diplomatic channels and the available communications channels. Your Lordships will have seen that the B.B.C. has recently increased the hours of broadcasting to the Arab countries, and we shall of course take advantage of this to give the lie constantly to these allegations.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, would the Government consider any positive United Nations investigation?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, we have this very much in mind—indeed, my noble friend referred to it in your Lordships' House yesterday. We certainly have these possibilities in mind.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, should we be right in assuming that, in view of the fact that Israel has accepted the ceasefire, there will now be no likelihood of increased Soviet pressure on Israel, and notably no suggestion that there would be a rupture of diplomatic relations?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, it is, of course, difficult to speculate on the Soviet reaction to any set of circumstances in a situation like this. I can only point out that the latest Security Council demand for a cease-fire was sponsored by the Soviet Government. The next action, as my right honourable friend said in another place, is to make the cease-fire effective; and the next action in the Council will be to consider a Canadian draft resolution which asks the President of the Security Council, Mr. Tabor, with the assistance of the Secretary-General, to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure compliance with the two resolutions of the Security Council.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, can the Minister say what kind of reception there is in the Arab coun-
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tries for the B.B.C. broadcasts? Are the people really able to receive these broadcasts, and would he consider that it might be appropriate to augment these broadcasts by broadcasts from ships, either in the Mediterranean or in the Persian Gulf, to ensure that people in the Arab countries in fact do hear what is being put over to them?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, our information has always been that our broadcasts to the Arab countries have what the technicians call a "high degree of audibility"; in other words, people can hear them quite well. We will bear in mind other ways of improving this service, but we believe that at the moment the reception of our broadcasts in the Arab countries is satisfactory.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, can my noble friend give an indication to the House as to whether the British Consulate General in Alexandria is still able to function normally, and also as to the safety of the personnel in that Consulate General, since Alexandria may form a very useful outlet in case British subjects in the U.A.R. are endangered?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot answer in any detail my noble friend's question. We have no specific information about the Consulate General in Alexandria to suggest that it is not functioning as it normally has in the past. If we receive any information indicating a change in that situation I will, of course, inform your Lordships' House.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, as Syria has not accepted the Security Council resolution, and in view of the fact that the Syrian troops have not been involved to any great extent in this conflict, is there not a grave danger that the main front may be moved to that part of the world in the very near future?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think it would be unprofitable to speculate about the future course of operations in this area. Certainly there is information that fighting is going on in the Syrian sector. I very much hope we shall be able to take care of this by a universal cease-fire, but I agree there is a considerable danger that if fighting is stopped in one part of the area, without

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an effective cease-fire troops might move to another front.
LORD ROWLEY: My Lords, would not my noble friend confirm that the Government of Israel would not be in breach of their undertaking to the Security Council to observe the cease-fire if there are areas in which their troops are being opposed by forces belonging to Governments who are refusing to respond to the demand of the Security Council for a cease-fire?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, it is implicit in the statement of the Israeli Government that if the Arab forces will observe the cease-fire they will themselves observe the cease-fire. Of course, this is a conditional response to the United Nations demand, and I should hardly expect that the Israeli Government would completely observe the ceasefire in an area if their troops were under fire. I think this is implicit in the Israeli reaction to the Security Council resolution.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, can the noble Lord inform us whether the inhabitants of Arab countries are free to listen to the British Broadcasting Corporation's broadcasts, or are they subject to any prohibition?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, so far as we are aware, there is no prohibition imposed upon listening to broadcasts from the B.B.C. There has been in the past a degree of jamming of B.B.C. broadcasts, and this is something about which we can do nothing. But our information at the moment is that a good deal of what we broadcast to the Arab countries gets through to the populations in that area.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, have the Government contemplated any action if the Arab States stop our oil supplies? Have Her Majesty's Government considered temporarily freezing Arab assets in this country? Are we going to allow the Arab countries to withdraw their sterling holdings?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think it would be going too far to go into the various measures that the Government might take if the supplies of oil were
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seriously interrupted and it began to have a serious effect on this country. Perhaps we may return to that subject if this unfortunate circumstance arises.

PORT OF LONDON BILL
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL
3.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I was very pleased to comply with the request of the originator of the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill to introduce this proposed measure for your Lordships' consideration. This, I am sure your Lordships will agree, is a very useful Bill. When originally introduced by my honourable friend, the Member of Parliament for Gateshead, West, in another place, it was sponsored by supporters of both the Government and the Opposition, and it has received general approval. The provisions of the Bill are accepted by the motor trade and by the motoring organisations as necessary or desirable in the interests of road safety.
The Minister has been in discussion and in communication with the Society of Motor Manufacturing Traders, the Motor Agents' Association and the Scotch Motor Traders' Association on behalf of the trade, and with the Standing Joint Committee of the R.A.C., the A.A. and the R.S.A.C. on behalf of motoring organisations, and has been able to resolve or satisfy questions or doubts on detailed points raised by them. Therefore I was a little surprised to receive some representations from the R.A.C. which raised a certain amount of doubt. However, the R.A.C. has expressed some doubt whether the written evidence permissible under Clause 7 would be accepted by the courts. In reply, I can only repeat the words of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport in the Committee stage in another place. The report of the Committee, is

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dated March 15. May I quote his observations at column 21:
"All that the clause says"—
that is referring to Clause 7, which was introduced by the Ministry when the Bill was going through Committee—
"is that the person concerned must prove to the court 'that he did not know, and had no reasonable cause to suspect, that the facts of the case were such that an offence would be committed.'
"It does not say that the court may not accept written evidence, if satisfactory written evidence can show, 'that he did not know, and had no reasonable cause to suspect …'."
I understand that the Criminal Justice Bill, with which we are concerned in this House, contains clauses that make it permissible for written evidence to be accepted by the courts. Therefore I hope that my words here may give some satisfaction to the R.A.C., who are rather doubtful about this point; but if it be that more suitable wording can be found, I am very willing to discuss this with the Ministry to see whether it is possible to find ways and means. But I must express a warning that I question whether anything more can be done than accept that advice offered by the Parliamentary Secretary at the Committee stage. I thought it would be as well to clear this matter up at this stage.
It is the purpose of this Bill to correct some anomalies and to rectify some omissions in the Road Traffic Acts which experience has shown to be necessary or desirable in the interests of road safety, and in particular to secure effective enforcement of the regulations relating to vehicle condition. I propose first, with your Lordships' permission, to outline briefly the several provisions. The first is to require owners whose vehicles are found to be defective at a roadside check, carried out under the provisions of Section 67 of the Road Traffic Act 1960, to have the defects remedied within a specified time and to furnish proof to the Ministry of Transport that this has been done, or alternatively to show good reason why it has not been done.
Section 67 enables any vehicle to be stopped on the roadside by a police officer in uniform for the purpose of the vehicle's examination by Ministry of Transport officers to ascertain whether it complies with the statutory provisions relating to construction, use and lighting. The
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provisions of the section were designed to operate as an advisory rather than a punitive measure and they have been applied mainly to private cars and motor cycles, because goods vehicles are dealt with under other provisions of the Act which enable the further use of a defective vehicle to be prohibited pending satisfactory repair.
Although the drivers of private cars which are found to be defective at roadside checks can be, and in particularly bad cases are, prosecuted, there is no power to enforce the repair of the defective vehicles. It is not to be implied that these roadside checks carried out to date have been ineffective or wasteful. They have not; they have been extremely useful. Since the provisions were put into effect in the autumn of 1960, some 20.000 vehicles have been inspected each year.
As a car is seldom delayed for more than twelve to fifteen minutes the checks impose a minimum of inconvenience on motorists and have been generally welcomed by them. They have stimulated an awareness of the need for regular maintenance and attention, and the attitude of drivers generally has given reason to believe that the majority of those who are notified of defects get those faults remedied. However, that cannot be said of all, and as the records show that about 50 per cent. of the total number of vehicles examined, which includes all age groups, are defective, mainly in brakes, steering or lighting, the number of vehicles which continue to be used in defective condition must be considerable.
In almost every case the defects are due to lack of regular maintenance, and the checks show how quickly vehicles in constant use can deteriorate with this lack of attention. This is particularly so in regard to the older vehicles, even though they are subject to an annual test. But newer vehicles are no exception. Twenty-five per cent. of vehicles under three years old are found to be defective. I think it will be generally agreed in the light of these considerations that the proposals now before your Lordships are fully justified for the purpose of seeing that defects are remedied.
The second aim of the Bill is to obtain better enforcement of Section 68 of the 1960 Act, which makes it an offence to sell or to offer for sale a vehicle in a condition in which its use on the roads

541
would be unlawful. Although goods vehicles in use may be examined at the operators' premises, others, and those up for sale, may be inspected on premises only with the permission of the vehicle owner or, failing his consent, on the expiration of 48 hours' notice, and the consent of the owner of the premises must also be obtained. Efforts to ensure compliance with the law by dealers in secondhand vehicles, and sometimes inquiries into suspected or reported instances of the fraudulent issue of a test certificate, can be frustrated.
This Bill makes provision for Ministry of Transport examiners, on production of proof of identity, or police officers to enter dealers' premises without prior notice for the purpose of inspecting any used vehicles offered for sale. It is by no means suggested that the majority of second-hand dealers are neglectful of their obligations, but we all know that there are some who are much less scrupulous than others. The House will be aware of the problem of "written-off" vehicles: many of them are resold after inadequate or unsatisfactory repair. These proposals, if approved, will provide a better means of checking on the extent to which this happens and will act as a deterrent.
The third main provision of the Bill is directed at used vehicles imported from abroad or sold on the civilian market after use by the Service Departments. The age of vehicles subject to annual test under Section 66 of the 1960 Act is defined by reference to the date of the first registration in this country of the vehicle. The result is that imported or ex-Service vehicles may escape the test for three years, even though they may have been used considerably before that time, and, as I have indicated, they are beyond the age at which other vehicles need to be tested. This Bill provides that these vehicles will be liable for a test in accordance with their real age. Fourthly, the Bill includes provision for a minor amendment of Section 65 of the 1960 Act to enable urban district councils, as well as county and borough councils, to operate public testing stations if they so wish.
The Bill contains two further provisions inserted as amendments by my right honourable friend the Minister of Trans-
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port on the Committee stage in another place. The first, to Clause 6, is to remove a difficulty which arises from a doubt about the correct interpretation of some of the penalty provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1960. As the law now stands, it is in many cases not clear, despite an amendment to the Road Traffic Act 1962, whether for certain offences against the Construction and Use Regulations prosecutions should be brought under Section 64 or under Section 239 of the 1960 Act. This causes the courts and the police considerable practical difficulties, and it is administratively inconvenient. This Bill aims to clear-up this difficulty a little. The present position is that breaches of some regulations carry a penalty of £50, and in others it is only £20. The provision in the Bill removes this anomaly by providing that all offences against the regulations shall be dealt with under Section 64 of the Act and be subject to the same penalties.
Finally, provision is made in Clause 7 to correct an anomaly which may arise when an employer is convicted of using a vehicle in contravention of the Construction and Use Regulations. Because the owner is vicariously liable for the acts of his servants, an employer may be convicted of an offence against these regulations although his servant was the actual user of the vehicle and the employer did not know of the defect. In such a case the employer's personal driving licence may be endorsed and he may be disqualified, or become liable to disqualification under the totting-up system. This principle may operate very harshly on a man who is running his own business. It particularly affects road haulage operations, but instances are known of other kinds of business in connection with which vehicles are operated and in which difficulties have arisen.
There is the further anomaly that the driving licences of employers who are proprietors of, or partners in, a private business are at risk whereas those of members of a limited company are not. At present the law, in effect, discriminates between the owners of non-limited and limited companies on these offences. The effect of the measure now proposed is to remove the possibility of an owner's being disqualified or having his licence endorsed when his conviction arose solely from his vicarious liability for his driver's

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acts—that is to say, just because a defective vehicle was used by one of his employees—provided he can show that he had no knowledge or constructive knowledge of the defect. It provides similar protection for the driver in a case in which it can be shown that he had no knowledge of, or reasonable cause to suspect, the existence of the defect. This provision, of course, has no effect on the liability of either owners or drivers to be convicted and fined for the offence with which they are charged.
Your Lordships may like me to explain in a little more detail the provisions of certain of the clauses of the Bill. Clause 1 provides that an examiner who finds certain defects in a vehicle which is inspected at a roadside check, under Section 67 of the 1960 Act, may give notice in writing to the owner of the vehicle specifying the defects and requiring the owner to give to the Minister of Transport within a specified period—28 days, or such longer period as the Minister may allow—a certificate of repair. This provision is most important. This certificate must contain a statement signed by a tester at an approved testing station that the signatory has either carried out repairs to remedy the specified defects or has examined the vehicle to ascertain that the necessary repairs have been carried out, either by the vehicle owner or by some other person, and are satisfactory. This 28-days period may be extended by the Minister if there is good cause—for instance, if the owner is ill or abroad, or if the garage had been unable to obtain the necessary spares for a repair in time.
As an alternative to producing a certificate of repair a vehicle owner may give a declaration that he has sold or disposed of his interest in the vehicle, or that he does not intend to use it again on a road in Great Britain. The clause provides penalties for failing to give a certificate of repair or a declaration within the permitted period, for obstruction of a vehicle examiner, or failure to give him information about the ownership of the vehicle or for knowingly making a false statement in a repair certificate or declaration.
Clause 1 also empowers the Minister of Transport to make regulations prescribing the manner in which examination of the vehicle is to be conducted at
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testing stations, and it gives a right of appeal against the refusal of a certificate by a testing station, prescribing the information to be supplied by the vehicle owner and the documents to be produced by him at an examination or an appeal. The regulations will prescribe the fees to be paid by a vehicle owner to the testing station for the examination and provision of a certificate and will prescribe the various forms of notices, certificates and declarations. The actual size of this fee will depend upon what defects are found in the vehicle, and no doubt this will be the subject of a good deal of discussion in regard to the fee to be paid.
Clause 2 empowers the Minister to require a vehicle for which a certificate of repair has been given to be submitted for further inspection by a Ministry officer to establish whether the repairs have been properly executed. This power is subject to conditions designed for the convenience of the vehicle owner, but the provision is necessary as a deterrent against malpractice and for enforcement of the requirement.
Clause 3 deals with the right of entry to dealers' premises for the purpose of inspecting used vehicles on offer for sale. The powers of inspection are applied only to used vehicles; that is to say, those which have previously been the subject of a retail sale. Any person, other than a police constable in uniform, who is an authorised examiner for the purpose of this section must, if required to do so, produce his authority for entering the premises for that purpose.
Clause 4 deals with imported or ex-Service used vehicles. It disregards any use before a vehicle is sold by retail so as to ensure that vehicles of foreign manufacture imported for sale in new condition are not affected. It provides the Minister with powers to make regulations which will make the registration and licensing of an imported or ex-Service vehicle conditional on the production of a test certificate or a declaration, as appropriate, signed by the owner of the vehicle, either that the vehicle is not of testable age or that he does not intend to use it on the roads other than for a purpose or in an area where it would not be subject to the test regulations. The age of the vehicle for this purpose is defined by reference to the last day of the year during which

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its final assembly was completed—a definition which is designed to avoid doubt or difficulty about the date of manufacture; for example, when a chassis is built by one manufacturer and its body is added by another.
I now come to Clause 5. I am sorry to be speaking at a little length on this Bill, but it is a very important piece of legislation; and I hope that if I explain it quite fully now it may avoid a good deal of discussion in Committee. Clause 5 amends Section 65(3) of the 1960 Act, which makes certain local authorities eligible to be designated by the Minister of Transport to appoint inspectors to conduct tests and operate public testing stations. The amendment would extend eligibility to urban district councils. The discrimination in the 1960 Act against urban district councils appears to have no logical foundation. Some are responsible for much wider areas than borough councils, and a few operate considerable fleets of vehicles and have much better facilities than many of the borough councils for operating testing stations.
I hope that I have given sufficient indication of the aims and scope of the Bill to satisfy your Lordships that the additional legislative measures proposed are justified and necessary. There can be no doubt that mechanical defect is a factor in road accidents, and I am sure that none will disagree with me in believing that we cannot afford to neglect any measures likely to reduce their number and the consequent loss of life, of wellbeing and in material, which is so often involved. All of us are road users in one way or another and are liable to suffer from a minority of vehicle users who wilfully or carelessly neglect their obligations to maintain and keep their vehicles in safe condition. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Popplewell.)
4.20 p.m.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, may I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, on successfully moving the Second Reading of this Bill, and on the thoroughness with which he described it to us? As he told us, Clauses 1 to 6 of the Bill cover a number of small but important points in regard to
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the maintenance of proper standards of road safety in vehicles, which experience has shown to need attention by amendment or addition to the law. I welcome them as being sensible and practical points, and after the noble Lord's very through explanation of them I do not think I need take up the time of noble Lords by further discussing them. Perhaps I might make the general comment that there is an ever-growing range and complexity of road traffic legislation which the private citizen is supposed to know, and I therefore hope that Her Majesty's Government will exercise the utmost restraint in adding to it.
The only point which I wish to discuss for a few minutes is on Clause 7, which has a rather different history from the rest of the Bill. This is an addition to the Bill to meet an important point which was pressed upon the Government during the recent passage of the Road Safety Act which dealt with drink and driving, and I am not entirely happy about the measure in Clause 7 to meet this point, which the noble Lord has explained to us. As the noble Lord explained, as the law now stands the owner of a fleet of vehicles is held vicariously responsible for the roadworthiness of every vehicle in his fleet. If any one of them is found to be defective with regard to the Construction and Use Regulations his personal driving licence is at risk and will be endorsed, with such endorsement counting in the totting-up process to the total of three at which level he is liable to a six months' disqualification. This is obviously far too severe an extension of vicarious responsibility, and I am glad that the noble Lord and Her Majesty's Government, by their support of Clause 7, appear to recognise that a modification is needed.
I realise that the Bill has gone some way to meet the previous objections, by now giving the fleet owner whose vehicle is found defective a statutory defence by proving that he did not know about the defect which has been discovered. But in my judgment there is still the substantial objection that the owner of the vehicle is presumed guilty unless he has proved himself innocent. This, in any event, is an objectionable concept and Parliament, rightly, is reluctant to see it go on the Statute Book unless there is the most cogent necessity for it, particularly when the ultimate penalty of

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disqualification of the fleet owner's personal driving licence is the penalty involved. I do not regard this as being a very satisfactory situation, and I should like to suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, and to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who I understand is to speak for the Government, two possible alternatives which they might consider before the Committee stage. Here may I say that I welcome the invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, to discuss this clause, arising out of the representations which he has received from the R.A.C.. particularly with regard to written evidence.
The two alternatives which I would suggest are these. First, that the Bill is amended so that automatic endorsement of the owner's licence should not follow a conviction in these cases, but that it should stop short at giving the court the discretionary power to order an endorsement in cases which in the judgment of the court warrant it. This would relieve to a considerable extent the objection which I see. The alternative approach which I throw out—and perhaps it is rather late in the process of this Bill to throw it out, but I think it is worth considering—is that instead of the ultimate penalty of disqualifying the fleet owner from driving, which seems to me anyway to be rather illogical for this offence, courts should have the power to suspend the licence of the vehicle for a limited period. This would seem to be a much more logical approach to this kind of offence, and one could be quite sure that the financial loss involved to the business would provide the necessary incentive for the management to find out who was the culprit in regard to the defective condition, and for taking the proper action.
This approach has the further attraction that it gets over the rather ridiculous anomaly that at present if a limited company is the fleet owner apparently it escapes this penalty altogether. It seems to me that that, too, is a thought worth considering, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to consider these two possible approaches before the Commit-
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tee stage. Perhaps we may have some discussion about it, and I may then put down an Amendment on one approach or the other. With that comment, I have much pleasure in supporting the Second Reading of the Bill.
4.27 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I rise merely to make two points. First of all, I should like to join with the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, in congratulating and thanking my noble friend Lord Popplewell on introducing this Bill, and on the manner in which he did so. He may have thought that I was under the mistaken impression that he was speaking too long, but at least the noble Lord gave us a very full description of the Bill. Secondly, I should like to inform the House that the Government fully support this Bill. They welcome it, and hope that it will have a speedy passage through your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, raised a point in regard to Clause 7. I can see some point in the second suggestion which he made, except that there may be some difficulty as the licence for a vehicle is issued by a different authority. I am not quite sure whether magistrates would have power to withdraw that licence, since it is issued by a different body. But I shall certainly look at this matter and, as I have already indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, I shall be very happy to consult with him and with my noble friend, and no doubt with the Department, to see whether there is anything which we can do to meet the noble Lord's point of view. With those few words I commend the Bill to the House, and trust that your Lordships will not only give it a Second Reading, but will pass it through all its remaining stages.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, thank the House for the way in which it has received this Bill. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, that I am only too ready to discuss with him and with my noble friend who has spoken on behalf of the Government, the two proposals which he put forward.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FISHING VESSEL GRANTS BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment: Report received.

ADVERTISEMENTS (HIRE-PURCHASE) BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. This is a small consolidation Bill, consolidating all the Statute law in the field of advertisements for hire-purchase facilities. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

REMUNERATION OF TEACHERS (SCOTLAND) BILL
4.32 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD GRENFELL in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Provision for arbitration]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "by the Minister of Labour". The noble Lord said: I think we all desire—at least, all of those who have a continuing interest in education in Scotland—that the new procedure for fixing the remuneration of teachers in Scotland should be brought into being with the full support of all the parties to the negotiations. The troublesome fact that we have to face when we come to this clause, which makes provision for arbitration, is that there is disagreement as to who is to appoint the arbiters.
I do not intend to go over the arguments again, because I think they have been fully covered on Second Reading. But the point is simply that in the event of agreement not being reached by a committee set up under Clause 1 for the negotiation of remuneration of teachers, then there is to be recourse to arbitration; and the question at issue is who is to appoint the arbiters. The Educational I Institute for Scotland, representing the great majority of teachers in Scotland, wants to keep the existing method; namely, the appointment of arbiters by the Lord President of the Court of Session, and sees no reason for a change. The Government, with the acquiescence, I believe, of the education authorities (I am not sufficiently well informed on the matter to put it higher than acquiescence; but, at any rate, with the acquiescence of the education authorities) want the appointment to be made by the Minister of Labour.
What I think is abundantly clear is that the arbiters should be acceptable to both sides. The difficulty that I see in the immediate present is that it so happens that the Educational Institute for Scotland has its annual general meeting to-morrow, and it appears that each side—that is to say, the Secretary of State on the one side and the Educational Institute on the other—have "dug in" on their positions, one in favour of the Minister of Labour making the appointment and the other of the Lord President doing so.
The object of this Amendment and the next one (which I suggest, with the leave of the Committee, we discuss together) is simply to leave the matter open for the time being so that there may be more time for reflection. Then, when the circumstances arise, it will be possible under the clause as it now stands for the Secretary of State, in consultation with the bodies concerned, to make arrangements for matters to be referred to arbitration without necessarily laying them down in the Bill.
Acceptance of this Amendment will leave the matter open. I can see many ways in which compromises could be reached on this. For example, the Lord President might appoint one arbiter and the Minister of Labour might appoint another; or the Lord President might be invited to make an appointment from a panel of arbiters; or, again, it may be

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that the Lord President may himself feel that, in the new circumstances, it is no longer appropriate for him to make the appointments. I do not know whether he has been consulted, but it may well be that in the new circumstances, which the noble Lord explained to us so clearly at the last stage, the Lord President himself would not feel it appropriate that he should make this appointment—it being, of course, the only appointment of its kind in the salary negotiation field that is made by him.
However that may be, the object of my moving this Amendment is, as I say, purely to avoid a clash in the immediate present. I am aware, as the noble Lord will no doubt tell us, that further talks have taken place since the last stage. What I am not certain of is that the Government have been able yet to persuade the Educational Institute that it is in their interest as well as in the national interest that the appointment should be made by the Minister of Labour. If it should prove that the Government have not persuaded them, and if the E.I.S. were to turn down the proposal at their annual general meeting to-morrow, I think that the situation would become that much worse. For that reason, and in a spirit of desiring to avoid a clash, I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 38, leave out ("by the Minister of Labour").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LORD HUGHES): I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for the way in which he has spoken to this Amendment and for the reasoning which led him to put it down in this particular form, and I only wish I could agree with him that to accept this Amendment at this stage, with the E.I.S. conference taking place to-morrow, would be likely to be helpful in getting an agreed solution. I may say that neither I nor my colleague have given up hope that such a solution is possible, but I do not think that what the noble Lord has put forward would, in fact, do other than intensify the desire of the E.I.S., if that desire still exists, to adhere to the position they have hitherto taken up.
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The Amendment, as the noble Lord said, leaves the position open, but I do not think that that is the position in which the Government would find themselves. Here we have a Bill in which it is laid down that arrangements for arbitration may be made—I would point out that they are not absolutely mandatory—under which the Minister of Labour would select the arbiters. I would point out, also—though this is not at all clear from the remarks of the noble Lord—that it is not an appointment of one arbiter; it is the appointment of three arbiters.
I shall come on to the conditions, because I do not think it was clear from his remarks that the noble Lord was aware of the extent to which the teachers are involved in the selection of one of the three arbiters. If we were to accept the Amendment we should be accepting an Amendment to delete the present reference in the Bill to the Minister of Labour. I think that anyone outside would believe, with reason, if we accepted the Amendment, that the Government would be accepting the deletion of the Minister of Labour in both word and spirit. I think it would be deceitful of me and of the Government were I to accept an Amendment the purpose of which, quite clearly (and I think the noble Lord made this quite clear), would be to permit the Minister of Labour to appoint arbiters, or permit someone else to appoint arbiters, and do so in the hope that we could persuade the E.I.S. to agree with us, if, at the end of the day, if they did not agree, we were still going to have the appointment made by the Minister of Labour. If we accept the deletion of these words we ought, in all honesty, to be prepared to accept that that is the end of the matter so far as the Minister of Labour is concerned; and that the Government are quite unable to do.
I should wish to follow the example of the noble Lord and refrain from going over ground which was covered on Second Reading, but in view of what has taken place since then I cannot do that entirely. As has already been pointed out, and as the noble Lord reminded us, the role of the Lord President of the Court of Session in appointing arbiters under the arrangements for the Scottish Joint Council for teachers' salaries is unique.

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Only in the case of Scottish teachers has the Lord President this function in the context of salary negotiations. Moreover, the present style arbitration is limited, in the sense that it imposes no commitment whatever on the Secretary of State. He was, and is, prepared to agree to a diminution of his present powers. He undertook to give effect to the arbiters' findings save in exceptional circumstances, and even then Parliament would have to sanction the setting aside of an arbitration award. But the Secretary of State agreed to do this as part of a completely new scheme.
The reason for the Government's stand on this issue is quite simple. The appointment of arbiters has been regarded by successive Governments over a long period of time as a task for the Minister of Labour. The fact is that the impartiality of arbitration (and, after all, it is the fear that arbiters appointed by the Minister would not be impartial which has led to the opposition to this matter by the E.I.S.) under the auspices of the Ministry of Labour has completely satisfied the staffs in other public services, including people with high professional qualifications. It is not a case of there being one standard for professional people and another for, say, manual workers; it applies over the whole range. In the National Health Service, where the Exchequer meets the whole cost of the salaries bill, there could be no stronger test of the impartiality and integrity of arbitration arranged by the Minister of Labour.
I would remind your Lordships that what the teachers fear is that because the Secretary of State is responsible, through the grant system, for a very large part of the Bill for Teachers' salaries, an arbiter or arbiters appointed by a colleague of the Secretary of State would, somehow, not be as impartial. Yet over a period of nearly 20 years the system of arbitration in the Health Service, where the whole of the salaries are paid by a colleague of the Minister of Labour, has never at any time come under attack on the grounds that the arbiters chosen by the Minister have proved to be creatures or tools of the Minister of Health or of the Secretary of State for Scotland. We feel, therefore, that we are obliged, for that reason in addition to all the others, to stand by this principle; because to do otherwise would be to accept the implication that some of these highly qualified,
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professional people are open to attack, not as individuals but as a class; that they have so little regard for their own personal integrity that they would accept a position requiring them to be completely fair and impartial but doing so on the basis that they were to arrive in advance at a decision which the Secretary of State wished.
As I implied during the Second Reading debate—I do not think I carried it further than that—my colleague has had further discussions with the E.I.S. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was perfectly right in assuming that those discussions had taken place. Following the meeting with members of the E.I.S. last Friday, the Department, on his instructions, wrote to the E.I.S. yesterday, setting out in detail, so that there could be no misconception at all about what the Government wanted, the kind of procedure which would be involved under the Government's proposals for the appointment of teachers; and I should like to read from the letter which the E.I.S. now has. I will not read the whole of the letter, but those parts relative to our discussion:
"What the Secretary of State has in mind to propose, however, is that any unresolved difference within the new Committee shall be referred for settlement to an arbitration body consisting of three members. One of the three arbiters would be an independent person appointed as chairman by the Minister of Labour. Before making this appointment the Minister of Labour would consult the two sides of the Committee and would take into account any view which they might wish to express about the proposed appointment. It is the Minister's practice to select for this work a person of standing with wide experience in arbitration. The other two arbiters would be selected by the Minister of Labour from lists of persons, say four or five, considered suitable by the management side and by the teachers' side respectively. It would be for both sides to draw up their own list of persons deemed to have appropriate qualifications and experence; but persons with an immediate interest in teachers' salaries—for example, teachers. members and staff of education authorities—would be ineligible for appointment."
In view of what my colleague has said to the officers and Executive of the Educational Institute of Scotland, I hope that they will find it possible to accept that the Government have no ulterior motive in seeking to do this. What we are hoping is that the new machinery will work in the interests of teachers, education authorities and the Education Department alike, because we all have a common interest in trying to ensure that difficulties

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about salaries are resolved as speedily and as amicably as possible.
It was because of this desire that the Secretary of State caused this Bill to be introduced in the first place. The attitude of conciliation runs through the whole procedure of the Bill. I cannot conceive of a situation developing where the arbiters appointed by the Ministry of Labour would act in such a way as to destroy the faith of the teachers in their decisions. I hope that when the teachers have consulted together further they will arrive at the conclusion that they do not have grounds for viewing with either suspicion or alarm the proposal that the responsibility for the appointment of arbiters should rest with the Minister of Labour, who traditionally has been entrusted with this responsibility for a long period of time.
May I conclude by referring to something which the noble Lord, Lord Balerno, said on Second Reading? He quoted some remarks of Sir Roy Wilson, the President of the Industrial Court, to the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations. These remarks sum up so well what any body submitting to arbitration would expect of arbiters that I think I am justified in asking the House to allow me to quote again what he said. Sir Roy Wilson said:
"In the first place, I have always regarded it as axiomatic that under the voluntary system of arbitration which exists in this country arbitrators should he entirely independent and free from the advice and influence of the Government or a Government Department. I believe this to be the universal and the correct view. The Industrial Court should remain entirely independent of its decision. That independence could, in my view, be modified only by Parliament."
As a definition of what the teachers should expect of an arbiter, I do not think it could be bettered.
The noble Lord, Lord Balerno, said that:
"This is what four-fifths of the teachers in Scotland have their teeth into: they have their teeth into this principle of an independent arbiter.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, col. 1646. 11/5/67.]
But those remarks were made by a man who was appointed as President of the Industrial Court by the Minister of Labour. Obviously, in enunciating that principle Sir Roy Wilson does not consider that he is either the creature or
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the tool of the Minister of Labour and obliged to bring in decisions which will be acceptable either to the Minister or to the Minister's colleagues. If, by chance, members of the Educational Institute of Scotland should be considering to-morrow what is taking place in your Lordships' House this afternoon, I would suggest that if they did nothing else they could rest on the definition of what a good arbiter should be as expounded by Sir Roy Wilson, who is himself an appointee of the Minister of Labour.
I have spoken a little longer than I intended. My justification is that I accept completely that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is at one with me in seeking to get a solution to teachers' salary negotiations which in the long run will be in the best interests of all concerned. I accept that that is his motive in putting forward this Amendment. I hope that what I have said will make him feel that it would be in the best interests of all concerned if this Amendment were not accepted by your Lordships.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, unlike all too many of his colleagues, always accepts an Amendment in the proper spirit and argues why it should not be accepted, and this case is no exception to that rule. But I should like him to give your Lordships the assurance that any arbitration award made by the arbiters could net be reversed, either by the Secretary of State for Scotland or by Parliament.
LORD HUGHES: Yes, I can give the noble Earl the most firm assurance. This is part of the Bill. The Secretary of State binds himself to accept the arbiters' decision, except in conditions of exceptional national urgency, which are specified in the Bill, when it would be a matter for Parliament to decide whether it would be in the national interest for the award to be implemented. In such a decision both Houses must concur. So I am able to give the noble Earl the assurance for which he seeks, with the exception of the special circumstances to which the Bill refers.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Arising from the noble Lord's reply, for which I am grateful, the only further comment I would make is that it seems that even the Government do not have much trust in the impartiality of the Secretary of

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State for Scotland, inasmuch as they think it necessary that arbiters should be appointed by an outside Minister. But it may well be, at least in the present circumstances, that this will be an advantage, because I am afraid that at the present moment the Secretary of State for Scotland's name stands something worse than mud with the teachers Of Scotland.
LORD HUGHES: I am afraid I cannot accept that the noble Earl is as fair to the Secretary of State for Scotland as a little earlier he was to myself. There is no question of the impartiality of the Secretary of State being impugned by having arbiters appointed by the Minister of Labour. It is laid down in the Bill that the Secretary of State is one of the parties represented in the new machinery on the employers' side, where he will be represented by two officers of the Scottish Education Department. The reason why we have not suggested that the Secretary of State should appoint arbiters is that it would be against all the ordinary canons of fairness that one of the parties to the negotiations should subsequently have the right to appoint arbiters to consider the result of the negotiations.
The Secretary of State is content that his direct part should be limited to the part which his officers play in the negotiations in the first instance. We hope that, through the new machinery, mostly—frequently—sometimes—they will arrive at agreed decisions. The arbiters will come in only if the new machinery fails to bring agreement and if the Secretary of State and the representatives of the other employers, the local authorities, are unable to agree with the teachers on what the award should be. Then the matter passes out of the hands of the Secretary of State and out of the hands of the local authorities and of the teachers, and goes to the arbiters. For the first time, under these proposals the Secretary of State will be placed in the same position as everybody else. He will have to accept the award like the local authorities and the teachers. It ought to be unnecessary for me to say that it is a tribute to his impartiality in this matter that this proposal to divest himself of the power which every Secretary of State has had up to the present
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came from the Secretary of State for Scotland himself.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation of this matter. Indeed, I could wish that he were to be present tomorrow at the annual general meeting of the Educational Institute of Scotland, where he could have said what he has had to say in this House to-day directly to the teachers. I am sure that it would be greatly appreciated. I do not go so far as the noble Lord in saying that if this Amendment were to be accepted it would be taken to mean that the Secretary of State was climbing down on the recommendation that the Minister of Labour should make these appointments. This is my Amendment and I have made plain the basis on which I was making this recommendation to your Lordships.
On the other hand, it is undoubtedly a matter for judgment whether the passing of this Amendment at this particular time would be helpful or the reverse. As I say, it would leave the matter open for the time being. The noble Lord prefers that the Secretary of State's intention should be made quite clear, and, indeed, what he has said has indicated that this is the firm intention of the Secretary of State from which he does not intend to depart. In those circumstances, I can only hope that what the noble Lord has said will carry conviction with the teachers to-morrow. If not, then we shall inevitably, and I may say sadly, have to return to the matter again. I think we can leave it there for the time being, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

LEGAL AID (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (on Re-commitment) (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without further amendment; Report received.

MARINE ETC., BROADCASTING (OFFENCES) BILL
4.32 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, owing to the omission of two words in the Amendment that was to have been moved by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, I beg to move that the Third Reading of this Bill be postponed until Tuesday next.
Moved, That the Third Reading of the Bill be postponed until Tuesday next.—(Lord Sorensen.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for his consideration in seeing that this Amendment is got right. For myself, and I hope for all noble Lords on this side of the House, I concur with what he has just suggested.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
5.5 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD STRANG in the Chair.]
Clause 15:
Restrictions on refusal of bail
(5) The foregoing provisions of this section shall not require a magistrates' court to remand or commit a person on bail—
(f) where the act or any of the acts constituting the offence with which he is charged consisted of an assault on or threat of violence to another person, or of having or possessing a firearm, an imitation firearm, an explosive or an offensive weapon, or of indecent conduct with or towards a person under the age of sixteen years;
(6) The requirements of subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not apply to the adjournment of a trial by a magistrates' court under section 26 of the Magistrates' Courts
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Act 1952 for the purpose of enabling a medical examination and report to be made on the defendant if it appears to the court that it would be impracticable to obtain such a report without remanding the defendant in custody.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR moved, in subsection (5), to add to paragraph (a): "or detention in a detention centre." The noble Lord said: I moved this Amendment towards the end of our proceedings on Tuesday night, and our discussion came to an unhappy end because not enough noble Lords took part in the debate to enable the Division to have effect. As a result, under Standing Order No. 51, the Question remained undecided, and it falls to us to continue the discussion now. I do not know what is in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, but, for my part, I propose to speak quite briefly, because the arguments are all set out in Hansard and have been available for noble Lords to study since yesterday morning. I will simply summarise the position to which this Amendment is directed and which it is designed to improve.
We all, I think, agree with the general purpose of Clause 15: to restrict remands in custody and to secure a larger proportion of remands on bail. The clause proceeds towards this purpose by compelling magistrates' courts in a wide variety of cases to remand on bail rather than in custody. When we come to subsection (5) of the clause, we find there set out a list of exceptions. It does not mean that in the exceptions listed the court is required to remand in custody; it means simply that in the case of these various headings the court is given an option whether to remand on bail or in custody at its own discretion.
Under paragraph (a) of subsection (5) the court is given this discretion to remand either on bail or in custody where a person
"is charged with an offence punishable by that court with imprisonment for a term of not less than six months and it appears to the court that he has been previously sentenced to imprisonment or borstal training."
The Amendment I am putting before your Lordships is to add to that paragraph the words, "or detention in a detention centre". What is in my mind is that if the magistrates have in front of them somebody who has in the past got into sufficient trouble to land himself

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in a detention centre, then it is only right that the magistrates should in such a case have the same discretion as to whether they should remand him on bail or in custody as they would have under this clause if, instead of having been sent for three months to a detention centre, he had been sent for a month, two months or three months to prison.
Personally, I think the case for that Amendment is overwhelming. It compels nobody, and I cannot accept the argument of the Government that the Amendment must be resisted on the ground that it would increase, perhaps, marginally, the number of remands in custody. If the Government rest on that argument, that is asking your Lordships to accept that every word of subsection (5) is absolutely right. I do not think there would be a great number of these cases which would end with remand in custody, but I feel sure that the option should be available to the magistrates' court.
When I moved this Amendment on Tuesday night it was supported by my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne; it was also supported by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice. I had, therefore, substantial legal support for what I was proposing. It was opposed by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, on behalf of the Government. I said at the conclusion of the debate that there was a clash of opinion here, and I believed that he and I in all sincerity held contrary opinions. I have read the debate through since Tuesday, and nothing that I have read or thought about this matter since has convinced me that it would be wrong to press this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 11, at end insert ("or detention in a detention centre.")—(Lord Brooke of Cumnor.)
5.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I want to add a word, if I may, in support of my noble friend. I agree with him in thinking that the argument for this Amendment is overwhelming. It is one thing to give guidance to magistrates as to how they perform their duties, and another to restrict their powers. This Amendment is the first, but I think not the only, part of this Bill where there is a restriction of the powers of magistrates, and I fear the result may well be
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that the impression is gained that the administration of the law is getting too soft in relation to those charged with criminal offences.
It may be the fact that the granting of bail has been too much restricted in the past and that it ought to have been granted more frequently. But that is no reason for the Bill's providing that a person who has served a sentence of detention—and it may be because he has been found guilty of very serious offences—must, when charged with another offence, be admitted to bail. That is what the Bill provides now. The magistrates have a discretion if the person has been sent to borstal training or to imprisonment. As the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice pointed out, nowadays it really is quite fortuitous as to whether or not there is room in a detention centre, and if there is not it is quite fortuitous as to whether he goes to detention or indeed to borstal. I think it is quite wrong to restrict the magistrates' discretion to grant or refuse bail in a case where a man who is charged has served a sentence of detention, and that they should have the same discretion as they do if he has gone to borstal or to prison and served there before coming before the court again.
If I understand Lord Stonham's argument correctly, the only argument really advanced by him was that, as detention differs from borstal training and imprisonment, he did not want a person remanded in custody, who had served detention, to go to prison to get the taste of prison. I think that is a wholly inadequate reason for restricting the discretion of magistrates, and I think it shows undue regard for the person charged with the offence who has already been convicted of other offences, it may be of a very serious kind, and an inadequate regard for the preservation of law and order. I shall certainly support my noble friend in the Lobby on this.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Do Her Majesty's Government not realise that many of the youths who are sent to those most admirable new institutions, detention centres, have been sent there because they have been guilty of very violent offences? I visited a detention centre in Perth some time ago, and at that time, to give just two examples, there was one "little angel", in appearance, who on

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being refused free admission to a Glasgow cinema, kicked the manager in the stomach and went on kicking him. Another young gentleman had threatened his father with a carving knife and had to be forcibly disarmed.
When, as all too often happens, despite their corrective training, lads of this description again get into trouble, surely the magistrate, or magistrates, should have a discretion to say that it is unwise from the point of view of the safety of the Queen's citizens that these young men should be at large until their trial has been carried out. If the Government are unwilling to accept this most reasonable Amendment, which does not seek to make it mandatory to refuse bail but merely leaves it to the discretion of the magistrates to do so if they think fit, then it is merely one more evidence that, unfortunately, this Government are infinitely more solicitous for the welfare of the criminal than for that of the respectable citizen.
LORD ROYLE: Since this Amendment appeared on the Order Paper one has obviously given a great deal of thought to it, and I confess at once that I have been torn asunder and that at one point I was deeply sympathetic towards it; but, after a great deal of thought. I have come down against it. I am one of those who believe that bail must be given whenever possible, and particularly when it applies to our younger offenders.
My mind goes back to the 1948 Act when the detention centres were first brought into legislation, and I remember the words of the then Home Secretary, the late Mr. Chuter Ede, when he described what the detention centres were for. He described it as, "a short, sharp shock". I regard this, therefore, as a form of penalty which is very different indeed from a sentencing to borstal. A borstal sentence is of a longer period than a sentence to a detention centre. From one's experience of young people appearing before the courts, I assure the noble Earl who preceded me that not all the youngsters who have been sent to detention centres are of the type which he mentioned.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I never suggested that they were.
LORD ROYLE: I accept that at once.
LORD STONHAM: They were the only examples the noble Earl gave.
LORD ROYLE: They were the ones mentioned by the noble Earl, and there are many others. In the early days of the detention centres I remember cases in which conscientious objectors were sent there. In the past there have been many mistakes as to the type of person who should be sent to those institutions.
I am concerned because I know from experience that many of these young men may have had a period in a detention centre simply because of the shortage of remand centres, and under this Amendment magistrates would be compelled to remand such men to prison. Prison is a very different place from a detention centre. I greatly dislike the thought of some of these people, even for the short period of remand, ever getting into prison. I am all for discretion for magistrates, but I assure noble Lords that there are many magistrates who are much happier when they know precisely what the law is and what they are compelled to do. It is because of these considerations that eventually I came down on the side of the Government, believing that sentence to a borstal and sentence to a detention centre are two very different kinds of penalty, and that the people who have had experience of a detention centre are not the people who should be refused bail if they happen to appear before a court again. After having given the matter a great deal of thought I am quite confident that the Government are right on this matter.
5.20 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Royle, not only for the sentiments he has expressed but for the fact that they come with a great many years' experience as a magistrate, and indeed as vice-chairman of the Magistrates' Association. Despite the eminent legal authority to which we have listened this afternoon and which has been quoted in this debate, I would remind your Lordships that it is, after all, the magistrates who are concerned with Clause 15.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, told us that this clause is one with which we all agree. I imagine he means

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that all your Lordships agree. I hope that is right; but I must say that, from what we have heard so far, agreement in some sections seems somewhat muted. The whole purpose of this clause, and indeed a major purpose of the Bill, is to reduce the number of people sent to prison, as the noble and learned Viscount Lord Dilhorne said; but he omitted one vitally important word—sent to prison unnecessarily. This is what this clause is about.
When an accused person is remanded in custody he is sent to prison—for varying periods, unspecified, and, at the time of the remand, virtually unknown. This clause provides that in certain circumstances, but not in others, when magistrates remand an accused person they must grant bail. Magistrates have discretion now as to whether or not they should grant bail, and it is a fact, which is repeated every year, that, of some 35,000 occasions when they do not grant bail, more than half of the offenders subsequently convicted are not sent to prison. In other words, the magistrates who eventually try them, and who presumably earlier remanded them in custody, do not think that the offence was such as to justify imprisonment. This must be what the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, meant when he said that we all agreed with this clause; that the idea was to reduce the number of prisoners remanded in custody. That is the point on which I understand we are in agreement; and, therefore, if we are going to do this we must limit the magistrates' discretion, otherwise there is no reason to think that we shall be able to reduce the number of remands in custody.
So the point is the much narrower one of the exceptions. I must remind your Lordships again that there are powerful exceptions to the mandatory grant of bail in these courts. The first is that it must be a summary trial for an offence with a maximum punishment of not more than six months' imprisonment. In other words, the alleged offence is unlikely to be a very serious crime. The noble and learned Viscount Lord Dilhorne said that the Government's attitude in this was an example of the law getting too "soft", or of our wanting the law to be too "soft". I would remind him that we are considering here people, mainly young people, who are charged with an offence—and not a
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particularly serious offence at that—but who have not been convicted. Indeed, at the time when a decision is made as to whether or not they should be sent to prison, they are still in law innocent. I am arguing that they should not be sent to prison.
It has been mentioned by my noble friend and by other speakers that there is a difference between a detention centre and prison, and the very reason why the detention centres are full and why sometimes, unavoidably, young people who would otherwise go to detention centres have to go to prison is proof that the magistrates do see a difference and that they think the nature of the offence means that going to a detention centre for three months (which in fact means eight or nine weeks) is a way of dealing with the case instead of sending the man to prison or to borstal. There is a difference, and anyone who thinks otherwise cannot have been to a detention centre or to a prison and seen the very great difference in the régimes.
Another thing I want to point out is what I regard as the high success rate in detention centres. In senior detention centres it is 51 per cent., compared with the success rate in borstals (where we have boys for up to two years) of some 38 per cent. Having regard to the nature of the crimes committed by some of the boys, to which the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, referred, that is quite a remarkable success rate.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Can the noble Lord explain how the success rate for detention centres, which I agree is remarkable and very satisfactory, can possibly affect the question of the discretion of magistrates in a case where there has not been a success, at least apparently, because the man, having served a sentence of detention, comes before the magistrate on another charge? Surely that is the question we are considering.
LORD STONHAM: I was, of course, hoping to come to that when the noble and learned Viscount interrupted me. I would remind him that the first detention centre opened was at Goudhurst, in Kent, over twelve years ago. That means that it is not only a young person who comes before a magistrate who may have had a term in a detention centre: it may be a man of 33. And, because of our

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success rates, that man of 33 might have gone straight for ten or twelve years, and when he came before the court it might not be on a serious charge but might be on one which required a remand, not because of the nature of the offence but purely for the purposes of the court. If the Amendment is accepted, it means that the magistrate, looking at the Act, would see detention centres mentioned, and it would be a strong reason for denying bail. This is why I say that the question of success rates is important.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I do not follow why the noble Lord says that. After all, if the magistrate looks at the Act, he will see that he has a clear discretion in the matter.
LORD STONHAM: Of course he has that discretion now, and that is why we have this clause, in order to reduce the number of people going to prison on remand, unconvicted, unnecessarily.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, said he could not accept that this Amendment would increase the number of people going to prison unnecessarily: he could not accept that it would have this effect. If it would not have that effect, what is the good of putting down the Amendment at all? If it is unnecessary, if it will not increase the number of people sent to prison on remand, then I cannot see that is an argument for having the Amendment at all. It is no use saying the magistrates could use their discretion if the Amendment were made.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: The noble Lord has no confidence in magistrates?
LORD STONHAM: I have perhaps a greater confidence in magistrates than the noble Earl has, but I am faced with the facts. We have this enormous number of remands in custody, so many of them afterwards proving not to have been necessary. We all agree that we should cut down the number, and I think that if there is any reason for having this Amendment it is that the magistrates will use it. Of course they will use it at their discretion, but what is the procedure when there is a question of bail? The police enter into it, of course, and if this Amendment is written into the
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Bill the police will regard it, quite properly, as a justification for asking that bail should be refused; and it must carry weight with the magistrates.
I would put one last argument. I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice is in his place, because this is a point he raised on Tuesday evening which was referred to by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne. I, of course, have no legal knowledge at all, and obviously I am not a very good layman. It is perhaps unutterably presumptuous for me to disagree with the Lord Chief Justice, but I do so disagree. The Lord Chief Justice said that he was for the Amendment because, as he quite rightly pointed out, there are occasions when a magistrate would like to send a boy to a detention centre but cannot do so because he cannot find a place for him, and he has to go to prison. Therefore, he argued, it was purely fortuitous whether a boy went to prison or a detention centre. So far we are together.
But the noble and learned Lord then said that that was an argument for the Amendment, for saying that boys who had been sent to detention centres, on coming up before a magistrate on another occasion, should stand a greater chance of being remanded in custody. With the greatest respect. I think that that is an argument against the Amendment, because the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice clearly felt not in favour of wanting to send these boys to prison but that it would be unfair because some other boys who had been sent to prison came under the clause anyway. It is a case for more and more detention centres, but it is a case also for persisting in our policy of training these boys and doing the utmost we can to see that they are not contaminated by prison. I hope your Lordships will not agree to the Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: Am I right or wrong in thinking that the noble Lord made a mistake in what he said? He said that subsection (5) applies only to offences where summary punishment is six months or less; when a man has been tried on an offence which only carries a penalty of six months or less. That is not the case. It also applies to those under subsection (2), where an indictable offence

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is dealt with summarily; six months does not come in there.
LORD STONHAM: I would be sorry if I did make an error. I think I said in cases tried summarily. That, of course, covers both summary cases and cases which can be either summary or indictable, but which the magistrates decide to try summarily.
LORD DERWENT: But in some of those cases which are indictable and tried summarily the penalty is more than six months.
LORD STONHAM: Perhaps I may read the clause. It says:
"Where a person who has attained the age of seventeen is charged before a magistrates' court with a summary offence which is not also an indictable offence and is punishable with not more than six months' imprisonment, then, subject to the following provisions of this section, if the court adjourns the trial and remands him, it shall remand him on bail."
Subsection (2) says almost the same thing, except that it refers to those offences that can be either indictable or summary which the magistrates elect to try summarily.
LORD AIREDALE: I want to refer to what is a possible compromise. I think it is generally agreed that the basic difficulty we are presented with here is that there are not enough places in detention centres. That being so, why will not Her Majesty's Government accept this Amendment now until such time as there are enough places in detention centres? When there are, the need for this Amendment will largely have disappeared, and Her Majesty's Government can then introduce legislation at the first available opportunity to repeal it. In the meantime, while there are not enough places in detention centres, surely the thing to do is to accept this Amendment as an interim measure.
LORD STONHAM: I am always grateful for the noble Lord's suggestions, but I think it is bad policy to accept something that you know to be wrong simply because for administrative or other reasons it might be expedient. At a later stage in the Bill we are proposing to give the Secretary of State powers to stop sending people to prison for the offence of being drunk and disorderly. We shall not implement those powers until there
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are other arrangements available, but we will have them in the Bill. The Government's case against this Amendment is the Government's case for this whole clause; we want to stop sending people to prison unnecessarily, and no administrative convenience should weigh on that.
LORD AIREDALE: You will not achieve that by not having enough places in detention centres, so that people have to be sent to prison unnecessarily.
LORD STONHAM: We are talking about remands in custody. In fact, following the noble Lord's argument, if it was decided to remand people in custody simply because they had been to detention centres, it would mean more people going to prison unnecessarily, before they have been convicted, which is what we want to stop.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: Not only are there not enough places in detention centres, there are not enough remand centres either. If we had more remand centres, there would be no need for the noble Lord to speak about contamination by going to prison. On this main issue there is a sincere and clear clash of opinion. The noble Lord says that if this Amendment is accepted a number of magistrates will use their discretion badly.
LORD STONHAM: The noble Lord must not misquote me. I did not say they would use it badly; I said they would use it.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: What the noble Lord said was that a number of people would be remanded in custody unnecessarily. If there is any meaning in that word "unnecessarily", it means that the magistrates have used their discretion faultily. That is, of course, a hypothetical matter.
LORD STONHAM: Some of the people remanded will be found to he innocent, and the magistrates cannot possibly know that when sending them to prison on remand.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: They certainly cannot know that, but I see no reason whatever why magistrates should not be trusted to use their discretion sensibly. If this Amendment is accepted, things will not go on as before. It seems to me inconceivable that magistrates

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generally will not take the very strong hint contained in this clause, and all that we have been saying about it in both Houses of Parliament, and will not recognise that they should think carefully before remanding in custody if the case is a doubtful one. What is absolutely beyond question is that if this Amendment is not accepted the magistrates will have to remand on bail a certain number of people—it may be a small number, but a certain number—who may not
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
5.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE VISCOUNT DILHORNE moved, after paragraph (c), to insert as a new paragraph:
"( ) Where he is charged with driving when disqualified and he has twice been convicted of the same offence in the last three years."
The noble and learned Viscount said: I think the Committee will probably agree
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necessarily be young people, who they think should be remanded in custody. That seems to me an unsatisfactory situation. I sincerely believe that the magistrates should have discretion in this matter, and that is why I wish to press this Amendment.
5.40 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 19) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 61; Not-Contents, 46.

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Ebbisham, L.

Merrivale, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Milverton, L.

Airedale, L.

Ferrier, L.

Monckton of Brenchley, V.

Albemarle, E.

Foley, L.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Amory, V

Fortescue, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Atholl, D.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Parker of Waddington, L.

Auckland, L.

Grenfell, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Berkeley, Bs.

Gridley, L.

St. Helens, L.

Blackford, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

St. Just, L.

Boston, L.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Salisbury, M.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Headfort, M.

Sandford, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Sandys, L.

Byers, L.

Hylton, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Carrington, L.

Ilford, L.

Somers, L.

Chesham, L.

Ironside, L.

Stonehaven, V.

Colville of Culross, V.

Kinnoull, E.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Cromartie, E.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Thurlow, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Derwent, L. [Teller.]

Mansfield, E.

Vivian, L.

Dilhorne, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Leatherland, L.

St. Davids, V.

Beswick, L.

Lindgren, L.

Segal, L.

Bowles, L. [Teller.]

Longford, E. [L. Privy Seal.]

Scrota, Bs.

Burton of Coventry, Bs

Mitchison, L.

Shackleton. L.

Chalfont, L.

Morris of Kenwood, L.

Shepherd, L.

Champion, L.

Morrison, L.

Sorensen, L.

Chorley, L.

Moyle, L.

Stonham, L.

Crook, L.

Pargiter, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Darwen, L.

Peddie, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Gaitskell, Bs.

Phillips, Bs. [Teller.]

Swanborough, Bs.

Gardiner, L. [L. Chancellor.]

Plummer, Bs.

Walston, L.

Granville-West, L.

Popplewell, L.

Wedgwood, L.

Hall, V.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Hilton of Upton, L.

Rowley, L.

Williamson, L.

Hughes, L.

Royle, L.

Wootton of Abinger, Bs.

Latham, L.

that driving when disqualified is not only a serious but also a most prevalent offence in these days. I do not think there is any need for me to expand on that and take up any time in commenting and enlarging on the serious nature of the offence. When a person has twice been convicted of this offence in the last three years, it must show that he has little, if any, regard for the law, and in such a case I feel that magistrates should have a discretion not to admit to bail.
It may be said by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, when he comes to reply, that such a case will be covered by Clause 15(5)(g), where it says that there will be a discretion:
"where it appears to the court that unless he is remanded or committed in custody he is likely to commit an offence"
I have some doubt whether that would apply, because that paragraph begins with the words "where it appears to the court …". I should think—and perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will correct me if he disagrees—that that must mean that there is some evidence before the court, on which the court can act, that he is likely to commit an offence unless he is remanded or committed in custody.
I do not see how on that wording it would be open to the court to operate that subsection merely on account of the fact that he had twice been convicted in the last three years of driving when disqualified. Even if it is the view of the Lord Chancellor that that would be comprehended within paragraph (g), it seems to me that it is open to some doubt. Therefore, I feel that there would be some advantage if clear guidance on this subsection could be given to the magistrates through the insertion of the Amendment which I propose. I think it should be made clear beyond all doubt that, in a case where the charges involve driving while disqualified, and where there have been two convictions within the short period of three years, the magistrates can, if they think fit, refuse bail. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 17, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Viscount Dilhorne.)
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I ought perhaps to have raised this matter in connection with the previous Amendment. I am puzzled about all these conditions, both those at present in the Bill and those proposed in the Amendment of the noble and learned Viscount, all of which assume that when remanding an accused person, after he has pleaded and before he is tried, a court will know whether he has been previously convicted or sentenced to imprisonment, or borstal, or to a detention centre, and whether he has been previously convicted of driving while disqualified. I should
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have thought it totally contrary to the elementary principles of British justice that the magistrates who are to try a case should know the previous record of the accused when they are deciding whether or not to grant bail. In my long experience as a magistrate I have never heard a previous record given. The police will say that a man has no fixed abode, that he is likely to interfere with other witnesses, and that they think he will commit another offence while on bail, but in no circumstances have I ever heard the previous record given, and I feel that it would be most improper to do so.
LORD PARKER or WADDINGTON: Before we consider this Amendment, I was going to ask much the same question as the noble Baroness who has just spoken. I am very anxious to elucidate what is to happen. Quite clearly, those concerned with the granting or refusing of bail will inevitably know whether there is a record or not. Does this really mean that a bench has to be reconstituted? Has it to be clear that no people who sat on the bail application should sit at the hearing? If so, what happens when it becomes a question of continuing bail overnight, when objection is taken and the bench, in the middle of hearing the case, have to see what the previous convictions are? There are great difficulties, and I myself should very much like to know how it is intended that it shall work before we consider any further Amendments to the clause.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: As the noble Baroness has raised the point, may I say that it was present to my mind that I was intending to raise this matter on the question whether the clause shall stand part. But as the noble Baroness will see that before subsection (2) was amended it obviously required that in certain cases the bench shall have it brought before them that the man has been in prison before, or that the man has been for borstal training, and that that would have to be a matter proved to them to be taken into account in considering whether or not to grant bail. That, I think, is a matter which did not arise on the last Amendment. I do not think it really arises on this Amendment, but it is certainly a matter on which I was going to say a few words when we come to the Question, That the clause stand

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part, because I feel that it is very important.
LORD STONHAM: I would not want there to be two discussions on this particular, and very important, point and, as the matter has now been raised by the noble Baroness and two noble and learned Lords, I think I will deal with it now.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: If that be so, I will perhaps deal more fully with the reasons for anxieties about the clause as a whole, but I was reserving it until the Question, That the clause stand part, when we can see what final form the clause will take.
LORD STONHAM: I am in a position of some difficulty. As the matter has been raised, certainly it must be answered, and I will answer it. But if my noble friend will leave it for the time being, I will reply to it on the Question, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
To come to the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment, I am quite sure that nobody will dispute that driving while disqualified is a serious offence. If a man came up for a third time on such a charge the matter would have to be examined very closely before a magistrate would grant bail. But the Government do not regard that as a special reason for making such people less bail-worthy than people charged with other offences. I am sure that the noble and learned Viscount would agree that it is likely that a good many defendants who for the third time are before the court on this charge may well have been to prison or to borstal and will be caught by subsection (5)(a). He himself raised the point about subsection (5)(g) and asked my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor for advice on this point. My advice is that magistrates would have discretion to commit an alleged offender before them under paragraph (g).
The offence of driving while disqualified is a hybrid offence, being triable either summarily or on indictment. This brings it within subsection (2) of the clause, under which the magistrates are not required to grant bail until it has been decided to try the case summarily and the defendant has pleaded to the
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charge. It would then be only in the event of the trial not being concluded on that day that the question of mandatory bail would arise. It would be at that point for the court to consider, as I have pointed out, whether any act of the exceptions to the mandatory granting of bail in subsection (5) applied.
I think that, on looking carefully into this Amendment and what is covered by driving disqualifications, the noble and learned Viscount may agree that it would be wrong to say that people so charged should be treated, as a class, as an exception in the way he suggests. I would refer him to the First Schedule to the Road Traffic Act 1962, which lists various offences that invite disqualification. Among them, for example, are carrying a passenger on a motor-cycle in contravention of Section 8(2); failure to comply with traffic directions; leaving a vehicle in a dangerous position; contravention of traffic regulations on special roads; contravention of pedestrian-crossing regulations; failure to obey a sign exhibited by school-crossing patrols. All those, and many more, can bring about disqualification to drive, and if we were to accept the Amendment it would mean that in all these cases the magistrates would have this discretion. We feel, however, that most, indeed all, of the cases which are likely to be bad cases—and many of them would be criminals, if only by reason of the fact that the disqualification cases were bad ones—would be caught. That lessens them need for the Amendment and, with the other reason that I have given, the broad umbrella covered by disqualification at large, would be another reason for not accepting the Amendment.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, but I am not in the least satisfied by it. One is not concerned here with the grounds on which the court has in the past ordered disqualification. The charge here, of which a person must have been convicted twice in the last three years before this Amendment could apply, is a charge of driving while disqualified. Having been disqualified by the court he is found driving again. It does not matter in that context what was the ground of the original disqualification. This Amendment deals with a charge of driving while disqualified by an order of the

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court. If a man comes before a court a third time in two years on a charge of driving while disqualified, I should like it to be clear that the magistrates have a discretion to remand him in custody.
I am not quite clear from the noble Lord's answer whether he says that in those circumstances under this clause the magistrates have or have not got that discretion. At one part of his reply he rather seemed to indicate that he thought they had, if I understood him correctly, because he thought it came, or might come, under subsection (5) (g). I am not concerned with the possibility of whether, in other respects of the accused's character, he comes within any other provision; I am concerned with this particular category of driving while disqualified. If the noble Lord says that it comes within, and can come within subsection (5) (g), is he then saying (and I hope we shall discuss this when we come to the Question, That the clause stand part of the Bill) that proof of these previous convictions for driving while disqualified will suffice to justify a court in saying that it appears to them likely that if he is remanded on bail he will commit that offence?—be-cause I should not have thought that that necessarily followed.
If the noble Lord would like to say that he will give further consideration to this, I should certainly not be disposed to press this Amendment. But it is a serious point and one to which further consideration should be given. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord—perhaps he was not anticipating what arguments might be put forward in support of this proposal—his reply really has not met the case advanced for it.
LORD STONHAM: I think that, so far as subsection (5)(g) is concerned, I made the view of the Government clear, and I think that when the noble and learned Viscount reads what I said he will agree. On the other hand, I agree with him that this is a very difficult case. We do not want to create what I regard as additional classes of exceptions to the mandatory provision—certainly, we would not do it lightly—but I am impressed by what he has said, and I shall be very glad to look at this again and see whether we can find some solution.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: In those circumstances I have much pleasure in
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asking the leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said, as this merits very serious consideration; in particular, as to whether the point really is covered by subsection (5)(g).
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.5 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved to add to paragraph (f):
"or an offence under the Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act 1964 or the Dangerous Drugs Act 1965;".
The noble Lord said: As your Lord-ships know, subsection (5) of this clause deals with a variety of cases where magistrates have the option of granting or not granting bail. By my Amendment I seek to add something to paragraph (f) of subsection (5), which deals with serious cases of offences against the person—offences such as assault on or threat of violence to another person, having or possessing a firearm and so on. It deals with offences against the person, and I am seeking to add offences under the two main Drugs Acts—the Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act 1964, and the Dangerous Drugs Act 1965.
As your Lordships probably know but may have forgotten, the first of these Acts, the Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act 1964 deals largely with things like pep pills; and the more serious drugs, the hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin and so on, are dealt with under the 1965 Act. May I just digress to say that I was in some doubt whether to include the 1964 Act in this Amendment, but I have done so for one reason only. It does not deal only with the pep pill trouble; it deals with the drugs which cause hallucination such as LSD. In the early days of LSD it was thought that there would probably be no lasting effect, but it has since been found from people who take LSD that it can have the most serious side effects. It is now quite clear that in many cases the taking of LSD leads eventually to the taking of hard drugs, and that is why I have put in the less important of the two Acts as well as the 1965 Act.
Under both of those Acts there are, in the main, two classes of offenders. There is the trafficker in drugs, the man who trades in illegal drugs, and it is for that reason that I propose this Amendment

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to the paragraph which deals with offences against the person. The other class of offender is the person who has drugs in his possession because he is taking them. Magistrates have power under paragraph (h) to use their discretion in suitable cases about remanding a person in custody or on bail. That paragraph says:
"where it appears to the court necessary for his own protection to refuse to remand or commit him on bail."
In the case of somebody who is more or less permanently under the influence of drugs, they can use that clause to keep him in custody while he is on remand—maybe for medical reasons, maybe because he is not in a fit condition to be released.
What we are dealing with here are those who traffic in drugs. There is not the slightest doubt that if it were not for the traffickers in drugs—those who make money out of this evil trade—the vast majority of people who now take drugs, whether they are addicts or whether they are taking drugs which are not really drugs of addiction, would not be taking them. If the middlemen, the pushers, did not exist, most of the drug addicts would not exist either, and that is what makes this such a very serious offence.
I do not know how many of your Lord-ships, apart from those who are doctors, have any personal experience of people who take drugs. It is quite horrible. There is a fairly slow physical deterioration. There is an almost immediate mental deterioration and, quite rapidly, there is a loss of any moral standard. In addition there is the frightful craving, which is horrible to see, when the last dose is dying out, and it brings appalling misery to the person's family and his friends. In my view, people who make money out of this illegal trade are as bad as, and in many cases worse than, murderers. They slowly kill their victims, if not always physically then certainly mentally; and it is an appalling crime.
In case your Lordships think I am exaggerating, may I just point out what Parliament thinks the penalties for this offence ought to be? For the milder offences, which come under the Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act, on summary conviction the penalty is a fine not exceeding £200 or imprisonment for a
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term not exceeding six months, or both; and on conviction on indictment a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or both—for dealing with the less dangerous drugs, a pretty heavy penalty. When we are dealing with the hard stuff, this is what Parliament thought the offence was worth: on conviction on indictment, a fine not exceeding £1,000 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding ten years, or both; and on summary conviction a fine not exceeding £250 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months, or both—very heavy penalties indeed.
Coming back to the matter we have been discussing, I think there are two points here. There is the very dangerous criminal element, and there are the less important young people carrying pep pills. Is it really suggested that in this case magistrates are not fit to use their discretion as to whether they remand in custody or not? And, even if there is some doubt about that, are we to let this Bill go forward saying that the criminal element are to be remanded on bail so that they can go on pushing their drugs while they are waiting for their case to come up? It is not reasonable to ask us to accept that. I hope the Government will accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 29, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD STONHAM: Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, no one could fail to be moved by his concern about the effect of drug-taking. It is a concern we all share. Though they may not use exactly the same terms, no one can but share at least the sentiments the noble Lord has expressed with regard to the horror felt about the people who ply this ghastly trade. They presumably make a lot of money out of it, but at the same time they literally destroy human lives. There is no dispute at all between us about that, and the week after next I shall be moving the Second Reading of the Dangerous Drugs Bill, in which, with your Lordships' approval, we shall be taking legislative steps to deal with part of that problem.
What we are now considering, however, is whether in this Bill we should not include all the offenders under these

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two Acts in the mandatory provisions in so far as they apply under subsections (1), (2), (3) and (5)(a) to (g). In addition to these dreadful people, however, there are, unfortunately, large numbers of silly, foolish people who get picked up, sometimes 40 or 50 of them at a time, and who clutter up the magistrates' courts. The difficulty is that the noble Lord's Amendment would mean that these would all be put in a separate paragraph of subsection (5). I think he would agree with me that in any case he has suggested putting his Amendment in quite the wrong place, because subsection (5)(f) deals with violence and frightful crimes against people. I am not saying that drug-pushing, drug-peddling, drug-selling is not a frightful crime. Certainly it is a crime against the person in some sense, but it is not a violence in the context that we have it in subsection (5)(f). That is the difficulty.
With regard to the major offenders, I would submit this to the noble Lord. He read out the maximum penalties; up to ten years for a conviction on indictment. If a court had someone like that in front of them, it appears to me unlikely that they would grant bail; but certainly people concerned in an offence of that kind are not covered by the mandatory provisions, because they would be outside subsection (1) of the clause. That is at one end of the scale. If, however, they come within subsections (1), (2) or (3), where they are to be tried on indictment, they would not in any case fall within the restrictions of the clause; and even when these offences are tried summarily the magistrates would not, under subsection (2) of the clause, be required to grant bail until the defendant pleaded to the charge and the summary trial was adjourned. The question of mandatory bail could then arise only if the summary trial lasted more than a day, and any remand before the start of the summary trial would not be caught by the clause. Even then, assuming that it evades all those provisos, the other exceptions of subsection (5) would come into play. If the court considered that the defendant was likely to commit further drugs offences unless kept in custody, they could remand him in custody by virtue of paragraph (g).
Whilst we are very conscious of the gravity of drug offences—indeed, it is be-
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cause of this that we are introducing new legislation—we should be reluctant to categorise particular offences (that is, the whole field of them, including those of many of the people I have spoken about, the ones more sinned against than sinning) as being less bailworthy than others, because this would at least give magistrates the impression that bail should usually be refused in cases of that kind. Offences involving violence and other aggressive conduct directed against the person are in a different category, and even a brief release on bail might have disastrous consequences. But offences of that kind are in category (f). We do not think it appropriate that offences under the Dangerous Drugs Act should be put there, first because if they are really serious offences then the difficulty does not arise anyway, and secondly, because when they are not serious offences we think that bail should be granted.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I have great sympathy with the thought that lies behind the Amendment moved by my noble friend, but I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that the inclusion of this category in subsection (5) would mean that the magistrates would get the impression that bail should be refused in respect of any case coming within the subsection. That is putting it far too high. If I understand it correctly, the subsection gives magistrates the discretion to refuse bail. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that serious drug cases would be dealt with not summarily but on indictment. But there may be some cases not of such gravity as to warrant trial on indictment with which it would be proper to deal summarily. Sometimes there can be a considerable adjournment between the laying of the information and the hearing of the case. In London I believe that the period is now shorter than it used to be, but there may be a considerable lapse of time.
I suggest that the noble Lord might have a further look at this problem, because it seems to me wholly illogical that the magistrates should have discretion to refuse bail where a man is charged with common assault under subsection (5)(f)—an assault which might involve just a blow with a fist—but no discretion to remand in custody someone charged with a serious offence under the Drugs Act, when it is contemplated that although the

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case is serious, it should be dealt with summarily. There seems to be no principle in that, and I ask the noble Lord also to give further consideration to it, because I think that is warranted.
LORD STONHAM: Of course I will have another look at it, but I am bound to say that I do not approach the task with any great degree of confidence. The noble and learned Viscount has stated the difficulties in clear terms. He has agreed with me that in the major cases there would be no bother, because they would not be dealt with summarily. We come to the less serious cases, down to the comparatively trivial ones involving just the victims. I do not mean those needing care—they will be caught by the exemptions anyway; I mean the others who are trying it on for "kicks" and that kind of thing. They will still be brought to the police court.
LORD ROYLE: The magistrates' court.
LORD STONHAM: That is where the distinction is made between those and others which are perhaps more serious, those which the noble and learned Viscount mentioned as a class, though he did not give an example. However, I realise the problem and I will look at it to see whether it may be solved. If I cannot, I will come back to the noble Lord.
LORD DERWENT: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I agree with my noble and learned friend that the big criminals who run the "rackets" would be dealt with on indictment: that I quite appreciate. But the people who do so much harm, who are usually not very well off and in need of money, are the "pushers". The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, doubtless knows that term. They are really a pretty awful lot. They are the sort of people who will go on doing it to get some money, but they will be dealt with summarily, I am quite certain, in nine cases out of ten.
I would ask the noble Lord to see whether we can get these people covered by the Bill by some such term as those who sell or dispose illegally of the drags mentioned in the two Acts. I am not now trying to draft the wording, but that is the sort of thing I have in mind. I do not know whether it is possible, but I
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should not have thought it impossible. We come back to the same question. I think this is one of the occasions when some discretion must be given to the magistrates whether or not to grant bail. Having said that, unless the noble Lord wishes to say any more, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD ROYLE: Before the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, is given leave to withdraw the Amendment, may I raise one small point which has nothing to do with the Amendment? I am quite sure that the noble Lord, the Under-Secretary at the Home Office, would not like it to go into the Record that he referred to a "police court". I am quite sure I heard him say that in his remarks.
LORD STONHAM: I have complete confidence that that will be properly dealt with.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved, in subsection (6), after "defendant" to insert:
"nor to an adjournment for the purpose of an enquiry under paragraph 3(5) of the Fifth Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1948".
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 22, and I suggest that it may be convenient if the following Amendment is considered at the same time, since the two Amendments are part of the same matter. Subsection (5) which we have been considering, sets out the circumstances in which a person may be remanded in custody instead of being granted bail. Subsection (6) adds one more by allowing a person to be remanded in custody "for the purpose of enabling a medical examination and report" to be made on him. The effect of my two Amendments is to give courts the power to remand in custody for the purpose of obtaining a social inquiry report as well.
The relevant part of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 referred to in the Amendment is that part which provides for such reports. It says:
"it shall be the duty of probation officers"—
among other things—
"to inquire, in accordance with any directions of the court, into the circumstances or home surroundings of any person with a view to assisting the court in determining the most suitable method of dealing with his case. …"

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It then goes on to other matters. Admittedly, in the situation set out in subsection (1) the trial will not have reached the state where a social inquiry report is likely to be needed. But subsection (2), as I understand it, seems to cover the whole period of the trial up to conviction, and that is the point at which the court may well want to adjourn the trial for the purpose of obtaining a social inquiry report. Normally, the need to remand in custody for this purpose will be covered by one or other of the grounds in subsection (5), but there will be occasions, especially in respect of young people, when none of these circumstances apply. Nevertheless, a remand in custody will still be valuable to enable a proper report to be obtained.
What I have particularly in mind is the position which will arise when more remand centres are opened. These centres will provide facilities for a thorough diagnostic appraisal of a defendant, and a report based on this would be of great value to the court. But it will be possible to obtain it only if the defendant is actually living at the centre. I know that there are not many of these centres yet, and we hope for better things in the future; but we are legislating for the future. I imagine that it may be some considerable time before a Bill would provide another opportunity for making a provision of this kind. I hope it will not be suggested that in the meantime magistrates will take advantage of the power I am proposing they should now be given in order to remand people to prison unnecessarily. I believe that this power will be useful under the conditions that I have suggested, in helping courts to come to the right decision about how to deal with an offender. I hope that the Amendment commends itself to the Committee, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13 line 40. after ("defendant") insert the said words.—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)
6.28 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): I listened with great attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, said, but I was not quite clear what were the practical grounds on which he considered this power necessary. Clause 15 restricts the power of magistrates' courts to remand in custody a defendant charged with offences pun-
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ishable with not more than six months imprisonment. These are subject to the restrictions in the exceptions in subsection (5). Paragraph 3(5) of the Fifth Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1948, which is referred to in the Amendment, says:
"It shall be the duty of probation officers to supervise the probationers and other persons placed under their supervision and to advise, assist and befriend them, to inquire in accordance with any directions of the court into the circumstances or home surroundings of any person with a view to assisting the court in determining the most suitable method of dealing with his case, to advise, assist and befriend, in such cases and in such manner as may be prescribed, persons who have been released from custody, and perform such other duties as may be prescribed or may be imposed by any enactment."
In subsection (6) of Clause 15 it is stated that the restrictions
"shall not apply to the adjournment of a trial by a magistrates' court under section 26 of the Magistrates' Court Act 1952 for the purpose of enabling a medical examination and report to be made upon the defendant if it appears to the court that it would be impracticable to obtain such a report without remanding the defendant in custody."
We know from experience that it may be necessary to have a remand in custody in order to get a medical report, but the purpose of this Amendment is to inquire into home background. Courts frequently adjourn proceedings in order to enable a report on a defendant to be prepared by a probation officer, but I do not understand why for this purpose the defendant should be in prison. If the object of the probation officer's inquiry is to inquire into the circumstances or home surroundings of any person, there seems to be no particular necessity why the defendant should be committed in custody while the inquiry is taking place. If a defendant has no fixed abode, then under subsection (5)(e) the court may remand him in custody even though his offence comes within the restricted classes. But when a defendant has a fixed abode, one would not have thought that there was any special reason attaching to a probation inquiry which required him to be kept in custody when, if no report was being prepared, he might be released on bail. On the contrary, I should have thought that if his background was being inquired into, this could much more usefully be done if he was seen while he was at home.
The noble Lord's Amendments may be on the general grounds that where the

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courts are minded to obtain reports by a probation officer, they should not be restricted in the general exercise of their discretion. But the whole object of Clause 15 is precisely to restrict the discretion of magistrates in remanding defendants in custody in the case of offences which are not of a serious nature. I hope that when the noble Lord has an opportunity of considering what I have said he will agree that that is right, and the mere fact that a probation officer is asked to inquire into a defendant's home background is no reason for putting him in prison meanwhile.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: I hoped I had made clear that I had not in mind that a person should be put in prison. I had in mind particularly young people who get themselves into trouble, and when the background of the trouble seems to be that they are completely at odds with their parents, very probably with their fathers, and the home situation is unsatisfactory. If there are to be remand centres—not prisons—where proper diagnostic facilities are to be available to which a person can go while the probation officer is making inquiries, reports could be obtained from the remand centre as well as from the probation officer, and that is something which from time to time would be useful for the courts. It seems a pity that when remand centres are there, with facilities for diagnostic appraisal waiting to be used, it should not be possible for any person to be remanded to one of these centres so as to enable one of these reports to be obtained. I may have my machinery wrong, but that is what I am trying to achieve.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am afraid that I cannot add much to what I have said. The noble Lord spoke of "diagnosis". The clause already provides for medical examination. I still think that if the object is merely to inquire into the circumstances of a man's home surroundings, it is not necessary to remand him in custody. I hope that, having considered it, the noble Lord may be prepared to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I expect my noble friend will be so minded, but I hope that the Government will give some further consideration to this, be
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cause some of us have attached a good deal of importance to the additional work which the creation of remand centres will render possible. I had always assumed that part of the theory behind the remand centre was that certain people could be sent there for a study by the probation service which would not be a purely medical study. It would seem to me unfortunate if we should inadvertently so draft the Statute that it was impossible in future to use remand centres for that purpose. I entirely appreciate that there are many cases where, if a person is to be studied in his social environment, it is better that he should be in that environment and not in a remand centre. But I am one of those who attach a good deal of importance to the potentiality of remand centres, and all I am asking is that we should draft this Bill in a way which will not prevent us from using them to their full potentialities.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: I am grateful to my noble friend for expressing so well what I was trying to state. In the circumstances, I think it is as well that I should ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.8 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 15, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I should like to say a few words on this important clause, because I think it raises some difficulties which I should like to have cleared up, if possible, by the Government. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, is not here at this moment, because in the the course of a debate on an earlier Amendment he made some observations about the clause in general. I should like to start my remarks by saying that I do not dissent from the object of this clause; namely, to reduce the number of persons who are not admitted to bail where it is possible to do so without affecting the administration of justice.
It may well be the case that in the last few years too many people have been remanded in custody when they need not have been. But at the same time I do not accept the conclusion that, because when they have been tried they have not been sent to prison, it necessarily follows

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that it was wrong to remand them in custody any more than when a quarter session changes a sentence of imprisonment imposed by a magistrate to a sentence not involving imprisonment, it follows that the original sentence was at that time wrong. But I am doubtful about the wisdom of trying to achieve this objective by statutory enactment.
It may be too late to consider this issue, but I do not think that magistrates are reluctant to take guidance. It is true, thanks to the efforts made by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice and others, that magistrates get much more guidance now than they ever did in the past; and it is also true that they listen to it carefully and respond to it. I cannot but believe that if, instead of trying to restrict their discretion by Act of Parliament, magistrates had been given some guidance not in statutory form as to the general principles to apply, that would have been better than trying to draft this complicated provision.
I am wondering what will be the reaction of magistrates when they read this clause as a whole. They will see from subsections (1) to (4) that their power of remanding in custody is taken away. But when they look at subsection (5), it seems an absolute hotchpotch of provisions from which no real principle is to be derived. I must say that in trying to formulate the matters which magistrates have to take into account in a statutory provision I should have liked to see set out in clear terms what are the general provisions which should be applied.
If, while I am on my feet, I may seek to suggest what they are, I would say, first of all, that a man should not be remanded in custody unless it is thought likely that he will not appear to attend his trial. That seems to be covered by paragraph (e):
"Where it appears to the court that he has no fixed abode or that he is ordinarily resident outside the United Kingdom."
The next principle, I suggest, would be that he ought not to be refused bail unless, having regard to his record, it is likely that he may commit another offence before his trial. That is a general proposition, and it seems to me much simpler and clearer than paragraph (a), to which it is obviously directed. That seems to me to be the one example of the application of that principle, but
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it is dealt with in terrific detail. The other category of cases where there should be discretion is, surely, where the offence charged is of such a serious character as to necessitate his remaining in custody. We have that set out in some detail, but with tremendous width, because it includes common assault, in paragraph (f).
There is another category which is not dealt with in this subsection and which I should have thought in these days was a most important category. I know that I may be chided for not having put down an Amendment to deal with it, but one has had to do a lot of work on this Bill, and every time one reads through it one is inclined to notice something else. I do not apologise for not having put down an Amendment, because I hope that the Government will reconsider the whole of this clause. I am in favour of the objective of the clause, but I do not like the clause itself. I think you could do without this particular clause and express what is required more satisfactorily to produce the same effect.
The category which is left out is this. Surely a man should be refused bail where it appears to the court likely that he will interfere with, and possibly intimidate, witnesses for the prosecution. Even though there be the strongest evidence brought before the court by the police that this is a real fear, in many cases here the magistrates will have no discretion and they will have to grant bail. That, I think, is wrong. If subsection (5) is to be retained in the Bill I should like to see it redrafted to try to state the principles in clear terms, so that magistrates can easily understand what principles they ought to apply. I do not think this is apparent from the present subsection (5).
Then one considers how subsection (5) will operate. This is the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, with her great experience. I must say that I feel very worried about this. To take the case which comes within paragraph (a) under the Bill before it was amended, this must contemplate that before the person is tried in the magistrates' court evidence will be given by someone—we know the nature of the offence—that he has been previously sentenced to imprisonment or borstal training. That would have to be proved

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before the magistrates' court. If we take paragraph (b), that
"he has failed to comply with the conditions of any recognizance entered into by him on that occasion",
that again involves proof, before he is tried for the offence with which he is charged, that he has committed a previous offence. Paragraph (c),
"where he is charged with an offence alleged to be committed while he was released on bail",
involves the same thing. That would imply that he has been charged with another offence. How is it going to be done? Is it not quite new to require the police, if this subsection is to operate, to come forward and give evidence of that character before the trial takes place?
What will be the position of the magistrates? Will the magistrates, or any of them, who sit to hear this application over bail—the arguments put forward by the police and the facts which it is their duty to bring to the notice of the court—be disqualified from sitting on the case? Will other magistrates have to decide? It seems to me to involve great difficulties. And, quite apart from that, with this statutory provision on the Statute Book, will not the inference be drawn by any bench of magistrates before whom a man is brought for trial from custody, not having been on bail, that he is a man of bad or indifferent character, before his trial ever starts? I should have thought that very likely; and I think it is serious if that is the consequence.
I hope the Government will say that it is not too late to reconsider the wording—I am not asking them to reconsider in any detail the substance—of this subsection (5), so that if possible the two results to which I think the subsection now leads can be avoided. The first, as I have said, is the inference when it comes to trial before any bench from custody that he is a man of bad character; and secondly, the requirement of the proof of such detail about his past which subsection (5) seems to require. I should like this subsection—and I come back to this point—to contain some guidance in the way of some indication of principle which lies behind it. When I look at subsection (5) it seems to me to be a hotchpotch. I hope the Government will give further thought to this, because it is an important provision. I doubt whether it is wise to
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have a clause on this matter at all. I should have thought that it would be much more flexible if we did not. But if we are going to have a clause, let it at least show that there is some principle behind it, and let us avoid the difficulties to which I have drawn attention.
6.48 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I do not wish to repeat what I said just now or what has been said more eloquently than I could say it by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, but I should like to add one point. When it is proved that a man has previous convictions, and the court therefore are required to remand him in custody, it is no answer to say that the case must then be tried by a different bench of magistrates. This is quite unrealistic. It might be possible in the big cities, but in the country districts it is unrealistic to suppose that you could mobilise a different bench of magistrates to hear a case, when another bench has heard the previous record before deciding whether the accused is eligible for bail. It seems to me that this raises an important point. It is bound, in practice, to lead to the situation that magistrates will hear cases where they are already aware from what they have been told a fortnight before that a man has a long history of imprisonment. I should have thought that it was quite impossible to suppose that this could be done without prejudicing the trial. It seems to me quite contrary to the principles that run through the whole of the rest of British justice.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I had not intended to speak on this matter, but I am rather disturbed. When I sit in my court, weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be, and I see that a man is brought in custody and placed in the dock and has evidently been brought from prison where he has been remanded in custody, I do not know whether he is likely to turn out to be innocent or guilty. My mind is quite open until the end of the case. But under the clause as we have it here a clear line of demarcation is drawn, and it would be pretty clear to me that if the man was brought in from prison and placed in the dock he had a record, and undoubtedly a record of a very serious kind.
I am all in favour of granting bail wherever it is possible to grant it. I

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know that sometimes rather outrageous applications for bail are made by counsel appearing for prisoners. I had a case a few years ago where three men were breaking into a post office. They were arrested, and their van was found outside with a dozen sticks of dynamite in it, but learned counsel appealed to us to grant bail. We exercised our discretion and did not. But in these cases, if this Bill goes through in its present form, the whole theory of bail will be vitiated and a man will be condemned before the evidence against him has been heard, because he has come into court by a certain door and on that door it will say, "This man has a prison record". I think that magistrates should be given as much discretion as possible, with as few rules as possible. I think also that administrative circulars could be devised which would be circulated to benches of magistrates giving them general advice as to the circumstances in which bail should be granted, and that the clause here, instead of going into such detail as it does, might content itself with saying that magistrates' courts should grant bail wherever it is possible to do so.
LORD ROYLE: A record is going to be broken at this moment, because this is the first time on these matters that I find myself on the same side as the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne. But I am perfectly confident that what he has said in this latter debate is perfectly true, and I share his worries. It would be ridiculous at this time of the night to try to say anything supplementary to what he has said, and I am going to content myself by asking my noble and learned friend, when he comes to reply, to deal with another problem which is in my mind.
Subsection (5)(a) says that a man need not be remanded on bail:
"where he is charged with an offence punishable by that court with imprisonment for a term of not less than six months and it appears to the court …"
and so on. Exactly what does that mean? My noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger pointed out in the previous debate that it was wrong that magistrates should hear a man's record when a question of bail was being considered. What does paragraph (a) mean? It says "it appears to the court". I take it that this does not relate to what is read out.
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This is something which is very vague indeed. Is it being left to the magistrates to draw their own conclusion, from the person's behaviour and other things which have gone on in the court, that it "appears to" them that he might previously have suffered a term of imprisonment? This wording causes me concern, and I am wondering whether my noble and learned friend can give an indication of what the Government have in mind regarding these words which are so vague.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: We have heard a great deal on this from noble Lords who have spoken, and I feel that we are in danger of getting ourselves into a muddle here, I believe largely unnecessarily, because I do not think these provisions are going to make much difference to the number of people remanded in custody. Looking back over my own experience, I do not remember ever having remanded in custody anyone who would not have come under one of the exceptions given here. I think that the question of the number of people who are remanded in custody and are not subsequently sent to prison is largely a red herring, because so many people who are remanded in custody by magistrates' courts are the homeless, wandering people who go around the country getting themselves into trouble of one kind or another. We may know perfectly well that we are not going to send a man to prison, but we have to remand him in custody, otherwise we shall never see him again. I think that here we are in danger of creating many difficulties, possibly without achieving the effect that we are trying to achieve.
6.56 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: We have had an interesting and full discussion on the whole of this clause, and particularly on subsection (5). I rather think that when the noble and learned Viscount invited the Government to reconsider the clause he meant subsection (5). We start off, I think, agreeing—I think that nearly everyone who has spoken has agreed—that to have 17,500 people a year remanded in custody who are not sentenced to any form of custodial treatment, and at least 1,000 who are completely innocent, is, particularly at a time when the prisons are as full as they are, too many. We all, I think, agree that that total ought to be

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reduced, remembering always that it is a very difficult thing for an innocent man to get up his defence from a prison cell.
My noble friend Lord Leatherland says that it should be left to the discretion of the justices. That is exactly the position now. They have a complete discretion, and these enormous figures are the result of leaving it to the discretion of the justices. I think one criticism was made that one of the grounds ought to be a likelihood of the defendant interfering with witnesses. But that, I suggest, is covered in paragraph (g) because interference with witnesses is a Common Law offence.
The real difficulty, I think, in the division of opinion has been as to whether the justices are to be informed of previous convictions. The intention of the clause, as I understand it, is that they should be. There has always been a dilemma about this. At the moment, very largely, the discretion is not really exercised at all. As we all know, in a great many justices' courts when the police say, "We oppose bail", nobody says, "Why?", or, "What is your evidence?". If the police oppose bail the justices automatically say, "No bail". The reasons why the police oppose bail will obviously be reasons adverse to the accused, and if the justices ought to be exercising their discretion on the relevant facts, how are they to do that if they do not know the facts? If the facts are inimical to the accused, well, there they are.
As we all know, practice in magistrates' courts tends to vary. That is why the Home Office from time to time circularise courts with any directions, or indeed any sort of recommendations, to magistrates which the Court of Criminal Appeal (as it used to be called) may have made. If on this point I may cite from Stone's Justices Manual, Volume 1, page 42, the law is stated in this way:
"The justices may also take into consideration previous convictions recorded against the accused (R. v. Fletcher (1949)) … in which case Humphreys, J. commented that it is desirable that if newspapers are reporting the case they should not include in the report any mention of previous convictions. It is recommended"—
and this was, I think, taken from a case called Dyson, in 1949, in the Court of Criminal Appeal—
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"that information of previous convictions, when advanced in opposition to an application for bail, be submitted in writing rather than given viva voce in open court."
Then there was this specific direction in the case of Armstrong, in 1951, when the Court of Criminal Appeal reaffirmed that—and I quote:
"it is clear that it is the duty of the justices to inquire into the antecedents of a man who is applying to them for bail, and that it is undesirable that a newspaper should disclose such evidence, but such publication by itself is not a ground for quashing a conviction …".
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: I wonder if the noble and learned Lord would allow me to intervene, to ask whether what he is citing really refers to cases in which the justices have decided to commit, and the question is whether a person should be committed in custody or on bail. Then, clearly, the magistrates must know the record of the man; and it is quite right that they should, because they are functus officio: they are not going to deal with the case any more. I understood that we were talking about applications for bail in cases which were going to be tried by that very bench of magistrates.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am afraid I cannot answer the question because I did not know the point was going to be raised. It appears to be a general recommendation applying to bail generally. Of course we shall have an opportunity of considering this again at the next stage of the Bill.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Will the noble and learned Lord give way to me for one moment? I think that it must be that that applies only in respect of committal, because otherwise I cannot see how it would have come to what was the Court of Criminal Appeal.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That particular case may have been, but of course the dilemma remains: are people to be remanded in custody on the ipse dixit of the police or are the justices to exercise discretion? If they are to exercise a discretion, how are they to do that if they do not know the relevant facts? If there must be a discretion in the justices to decide whether a man should be remanded on bail I am not quite clear why the discretion should be entirely differently exercised according to whether or not it is a committal case.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: If the noble and learned Lord would allow me to intervene for a moment, I should like to point out that in one case the justices are not going to deal with the case any further: they have committed. But in the case we are now considering they are going on at once to hear that case on the merits.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is quite possible to have a different court. The proceedings are not necessarily going on at once, and there may be a substantial period of remand, for one reason or another. For instance, last week there was a case reported in the papers with six weekly remands running, during which I think the accused had been in custody. The question whether he ought to have been in custody for that time or whether he ought to have been on bail must, I apprehend, have been decided on some facts. Obviously there will be some cases where defendants ought to be in custody and there will be other cases where they ought not to be in custody; and unless somebody has told the justices the facts I do not understand how they are to decide, unless they refuse bail whenever the police object and grant it whenever the police do not object to it. However, this is not my field and I am quite sure that my right honourable friend will carefully consider everything that has been said in connection with this clause. I think it raises questions of some difficulty which do require consideration.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: I hope that the noble and learned Lord will not think I am against the object of this Bill. I was only anxious to know how it would work. But I am sure that in many districts it is quite unrealistic to think that you can get a bench differently constituted. so that no member of it has dealt with the question of bail.
There is just one other matter that I should like to know before making up my mind on this clause. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that some 17,500 persons were remanded in custody who ultimately were not sent to any form of detention. That I can understand, but the figure that I should like to have, I confess, is how many of these 17,500 fail to come within paragraphs (a) to (h) of subsection (5). It may be, as the noble Lord, Lord
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Hamilton of Dalzell, said, that we are not going to save anything by this clause if all the 17,500 would possibly have been refused bail because they came within one of these paragraphs.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I feel that in one way I owe an apology to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for not having given him or the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, notice of these matters. The difficulty is this. If I had put down an Amendment to leave out this clause it would have created an entirely wrong impression, and I am not going to ask the Committee now to agree to leave it out because, like everyone else who has spoken, I am in favour of its objective. I share the fears and doubts expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, and the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland. I do not think it is any answer to say to the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland: "The justices have this discretion now, and look how they have exercised it", because I believe that in these days (although it may have been different some time ago) you can achieve the result you want to achieve in this clause by giving guidance to the magistrates—guidance which I think they almost invariably follow to the best of their ability. On principle, where we can achieve the result by giving guidance to people who voluntarily discharge these duties I am against imposing a restriction by Statute.
I ventured to suggest that the drafting of this clause might be looked at again with a view to trying to make it clear that there is some principle behind the exceptions in subsection (5). I think there is, but it does not emerge, and I suggest that the whole of this could be thought about again. I tried to adumbrate the various principles which I think ought to apply, and I mentioned the case of interfering with witnesses. That was only one of the categories in which I thought bail could properly, in certain circumstances, be refused. Of course interfering with witnesses is an offence. I am not sure whether, in a summary case, it is a criminal offence to interfere with somebody who is going to be called, or who may be called, as a witness—I think that is much more doubtful. But one of the categories of case in which it might be right to refuse bail would be a case where, in the view of the court, there was a real

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risk of someone who was going to be, or might be, called as a witness for the prosecution being interfered with before the trial took place. If that is one of the recognised categories it does not emerge very clearly from subsection (5).
However, we have a great deal of business to get through. I think we are making good progress, and I do not think we are debating points which have not considerable substance. I hope the Government will give serious consideration to all the points which have been raised on this before we come to the Report stage, because I believe that if this clause is left in its present form it can be productive of quite a considerable amount of trouble and uncertainty.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
7.9 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 15, to insert the following new clause:
Power of magistrates' court to commit on bail for sentence
". Where a magistrates' court has power to commit an offender to a court of quarter sessions under section 5 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 (incorrigible rogues) or section 28 or 29 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 (committal for sentence), the court may instead of committing him in custody commit him on bail."
The noble and learned Lord said: In moving this Amendment, may I refer also to Amendments Nos. 68, 134, and 139. The substantive Amendment is the new clause, Amendment No. 24. The last three Amendments are merely consequential to that new clause.
Where magistrates commit an offender to quarter sessions for sentence under the provisions of Section 28 or 29 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 or Section 5 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 (incorrigible rogues), they have no discretion as to bail and must commit him in custody. The principle behind this requirement is that in these circumstances the magistrates consider that their own sentencing powers are insufficient and are committing the offender for the express purpose of enabling quarter sessions to impose a longer sentence; committal in custody could therefore be regarded as appropriate and necessary. But it is doubtful whether this is any longer a sufficiently strong reason for making committal in custody manda-
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tory. First, if an offender committed for sentence under these provisions appeals against his conviction by the magistrates, there is power in the High Court under Section 37 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 to release him on bail pending the determination of the appeal. An offender who does not appeal against conviction is unable to be released on bail until he is dealt with by quarter sessions, and your Lordships may feel that it does not seem right that bail should depend upon the somewhat fortuitous existence of an appeal against conviction; the anomaly may actually have the effect of encouraging frivolous appeals merely to attract the right to apply for bail. Secondly, while it may in general be true that magistrates have in mind a long custodial sentence when committing the defendant to sessions (although they could in theory commit with the view to the imposition of a larger fine than they have power to impose), the fact is that in 1965 just under 2,000 offenders out of 8,500 so committed did not receive custodial sentences at all. Thirdly, in the context of encouraging courts to be liberal in the exercise of their discretion on bail, it is incongruous to make the refusal of bail mandatory in certain circumstances. Fourthly, a provision on these lines will help a little to reduce the number of remand prisoners.
The three Amendments to Schedule 5 and the one to Schedule 6 are consequential, in that they amend the Vagrancy Act 1824 and Sections 28 and 29 of the Magistrates' Courts Act, which three enactments require an offender committed to sessions for sentence to be committed in custody. The consequential Amendment to Clause 51 of this Bill (revocation of licences and conviction of prisoners on licence), provides that where a magistrates' court convicts a person subject to a licence under Clauses 49 or 50 of this Bill of an offence punishable, on indictment, with imprisonment and commits him to quarter sessions for sentence in accordance with section 29 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948, then it may commit him on bail or in custody; the clause as at present drafted would require the committal to be in custody. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 15, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The Committee will be grateful to the noble and learned Lord for explaining so fully the purposes of this Amendment. In fact I believe it has a cross reference to his Amendment No. 27 later on, because if this Amendment is not made and Section 37(1) of the Criminal Justice Act is repealed, as is proposed later on, the High Court will lose the power which it decided in Whitehouse it had; so I think there is a distinct connection between those two Amendments. Particularly bearing in mind what the noble and learned Lord has said, and the fact that magistrates will have complete discretion, I am sure the Committee will welcome the Amendment proposed.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16:
Special conditions of bail
16.—(1) The conditions on which bail is granted to any person may include conditions appearing to the court to be likely to result in his appearance at the time and place required or to be necessary in the interests of justice or for the prevention of crime.
(2) A court which on granting bail to any person imposes a condition under the foregoing subsection shall not require him to find sureties in respect of that condition.
7.15 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "bail is granted to any person" and to insert "any person is admitted to bail". The noble and learned Lord said: In moving this Amendment, may I also refer to the subject matter of Amendments Nos. 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 142. The object of the new clause, Amendment No. 27, is to extend the range of circumstances in which the High Court may admit a person to bail or vary the conditions upon which bail has been allowed by a lower court. It was the Law Commission which drew the attention of the Home Office to inadequacies or doubts which exist as regards the grant of bail by a judge in chambers when bail has been refused (or offered on such terms as to amount to a refusal) by the court below. This is so in three cases. First, there is no power in the High Court to admit to bail where the magistrates' court has remanded an accused in custody after conviction for reports before sentence, although the magistrates have power to admit to bail under Sections 14 and 105 of the
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Magistrates' Courts Act 1952. Secondly, there is no power in the High Court to admit to bail where a court of quarter sessions has remanded an accused for reports after conviction; and, thirdly, there is no power in the High Court to interfere where the court below has offered bail in such terms, as to sureties and so forth, that the defendant is unable to comply with them.
There is room for argument about the High Court's powers in some of these cases, but it is clearly right that the High Court should have power to grant bail in all these cases and that the power should be stated in terms which do not admit of doubt. The new clause therefore provides that, without prejudice to any existing power of the High Court over bail applications, that court may allow bail in any case in which the lower court could have allowed it, and vary any conditions on which bail was offered by a lower court. I venture to think the Committee will think that in principle that must be right.
Subsection (1) states the main proposition of the clause: that in connection with any criminal proceedings, the High Court may admit to bail any person who could have been allowed bail by an inferior court, and may vary any conditions on which bail was offered by an inferior court. By "conditions" are meant the conditions which may be attached to the grant of bail under Clause 16 of the Bill. There is no provision that the High Court should not consider an application for bail which has not first been considered by the court below, since the High Court can be left lo determine its own rule of practice in this matter.
Subsections (2) and (3) make the necessary procedural arrangements to support subsection (1) and are modelled on Section 37 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948. Subsection (4) defines an "inferior court" as a court of quarter sessions, a magistrates' court or a coroner. Subsection (5) states that the powers conferred on the High Court by the new clause shall be in substitution for the more limited powers in section 37(1) of the 1948 Act. The new powers are, however, without prejudice to any other jurisdiction of the High Court to grant bail. The Amendment to Schedule 6 is the consequential repeal of certain provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 1948.
There are five drafting amendments to Clauses 16 and 17, which replace the references to "granting bail" by references to "admitting to bail". These Amendments are necessary to produce consistency throughout the Bill with the language of the new clause. It was found to be necessary to use "admit to bail" in that clause because "grant bail" does not distinguish very happily between the case where the magistrates release a man on hail and the case where they offer him bail but he stays in custody because he cannot find the required sureties. I hope that the Committtee will be in sympathy with the principle of the clause which encourages only the High Court, if it thinks fit, to grant bail in cases in which the lower court may do so. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14. line 10, leave out ("bail is granted to any person") and insert ("any person is admitted to bail").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Again I think this is a good series of Amendments. Indeed when I looked at the existing law on the matter I was surprised to find that in the present legislation there was a possible source of doubt whether the High Court was in fact restricted as the noble and learned Lord has explained. It seems a curious thing that the legislation as recent as 1948 should have been of an obscure nature, and such as to cause doubt, and in fact apparently to preclude the High Court from dealing with bail where the magistrates' courts or quarter sessions could have done it in certain cases. I am sure, therefore, that the general provisions of the new clause are a great improvement.
There is, however, one thing that I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord. I rather think that this will mean an amendment of Order 79. Rule 9 of the Rules of the Supreme Court, which deals with the powers of the High Court to grant bail and the procedure for it. I think this will be required because at the present moment it looks to me, at any rate, as though this rule deals only with the question whether or not bail should be granted and not at all with the question of conditions on bail. Therefore I hope that the noble and learned Lord will give an assurance that no sooner does this Bill come into force than the
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equivalent alteration will be made in the
Rules of the Supreme Court.
I should also like to ask him about one other point. The rule at present provides, in the cases where application is made to the High Court for bail, that if the prisoner has not the means to instruct a solicitor he shall be represented, if the court so thinks, by the Official Solicitor. Is the noble and learned Lord able to tell the Committee whether there have been any problems about this matter? In this Bill we have wide revisions of the whole question of legal aid, and I wonder whether it may be that over the years experience has shown that it might be better to do this through legal aid rather than to use the Official Solicitor, who I know has a large number of other duties to perform; and whether, if any information is available to the Committee, it might be that we could consider taking this duty away from him and empowering either him or the High Court, or somebody, to appoint a solicitor or counsel under the Legal Aid scheme to make this application where the prisoner has not sufficient means. It is only a suggestion, but since we have the whole subject matter before us in this Bill it might be worth consideration.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for the two points which he has raised. I am afraid I cannot answer them on the spot. They will both be considered and I will write to him about them before the next stage of the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 26.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 15, leave out ("granting bail to any person") and insert ("admitting, or directing the admission of, any person to bail").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 27.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
Extension of power of High Court to grant, or vary conditions of, bail
(".—(1) Where in connection with any criminal proceedings an inferior court has

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power to admit any person to bail, but either refuses to do so or offers to do so on terms unacceptable to him, the High Court may admit him or direct his admission to bail or, where he has been admitted to bail, may vary any conditions on which he was so admitted or reduce the amount in which he or any surety is bound or discharge any of the sureties.
(2) The conditions as to the time and place of appearance of a person admitted to bail under this section which are to be included in a recognizance entered into by him shall be such conditions as the inferior court had power to impose.
(3) Subsections (3), (4) and (6) of section 37 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (ancillary provisions as to persons admitted to bail by the High Court under that section and the currency of sentence in the case of persons so admitted) shall apply in relation to the powers conferred by this section and persons admitted to bail in pursuance of those powers as it applies in relation to the powers conferred by that section and persons admitted to bail in pursuance of those powers, except that the said subsection (6) shall not apply in relation to a person admitted to bail pending an appeal from a magistrates' court to a court of quarter sessions.
(4) In this section 'inferior court' means a court of quarter sessions, a magistrates' court or a coroner.
(5) The powers conferred on the High Court by this section shall be in substitution for the powers so conferred by paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 37(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1948, but except as aforesaid this section shall not prejudice any powers of the High Court to admit or direct the admission of persons to bail.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17 [Arrest of persons granted bail]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 28.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 19, leave out ("granted") and insert ("admitted to").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 14. line 23, leave out ("bail was granted") and insert ("he was admitted to bail").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 30.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 4, leave out ("bail was granted") and insert ("he was admitted to bail").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
Process for minor offences. 1952 c. 55
(2) A warrant for the arrest of any such person shall not be issued under section 15 of the said Act of 1952 (non-appearance of defendant) unless

(a) the offence to which the warrant relates is punishable with imprisonment; or

(b) the court, having convicted the defendant, proposes to impose a disqualification on him.

(3) Where a summons has been issued under the said section 1 and a magistrates' court has begun to try the information to which the summons relates, then if—

(a) the defendant, at any time during or after the trial, makes a statutory declaration that he did not know of the summons or the proceedings until a date specified in the declaration, being a date after the court has begun to try the information; and

7.25 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (2) after "15" to insert "(2)". The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 31 standing in the name of my noble and learned friend. I hope that it will meet your Lordships' convenience if I deal also with Amendment No. 32 which is the substantive Amendment, and also with the Sixth Schedule, Amendment No. 145, which is consequential. As your Lordships are aware, the aim of Clause 18 is twofold: first, to restrict the unnecessary issue of warrants of arrest under Sections 1 and 15 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952; secondly, to enable courts, after the necessary amendments have been made to the Magistrates' Courts Rules, to proceed in the absence of a defendant who has failed to acknowledge receipt of a summons for a summary offence. It is expected that these provisions will enable courts to deal more efficiently and expeditiously with minor offences without having to resort to warrants for the arrest of defendants, who are sometimes recalcitrant in ignoring process, but probably are just as often genuinely unaware of the proceedings. Such defendants are protected by the right given by the clause to have the proceedings against them annulled by way of statutory declaration.
The procedure on the non-appearance of the defendant is at present regulated by Section 15 of the 1952 Act. After the

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passing of the Bill the position will be that the court will be able to issue a warrant for the defendant's arrest if the offence is punishable with imprisonment or if the court, having convicted the defendant, proposes to disqualify him. It will be able to do this even though he may not have acknowledged receipt of the summons, since the Magistrates' Courts Rules will be amended to dispense with strict proof of service. Similarly, without proof of service, the court will be able to proceed in the absence of the accused. If, however, the court chooses to do neither, but instead adjourns the hearing, perhaps to give the defendant the opportunity to be present, it will not subsequently be able to proceed in his absence or to issue a warrant for his arrest unless it is satisfied (by strict proof of service) that the notice of adjournment came to his knowledge. Under Clause 20 of the Bill, which deals with restrictions on passing sentence in the absence of the defendant, the court is under a duty to adjourn if the defendant fails to appear: his presence is necessary for a sentence of imprisonment to be passed; and he must be apprised of the court's intention to disqualify him. In effect, therefore, if the court adjourns, either because it must do so or if it merely wishes to give the defendant a second chance to appear before issuing a warrant, it loses the procedural advantage that will accrue from this clause and the subsequent amendment of the Magistrates' Courts Rules.
We think that this represents a significant defect in the procedure and that it exposes two questions. First, should proof of service of the notice of adjournment be a pre-requisite to the issue of a warrant of arrest on the non-appearance of the defendant? Secondly, should such proof be necessary before the court may proceed with an adjourned hearing in the defendant's absence? There is no reason why, on the non-appearance of the defendant at an adjourned hearing, a warrant should not be issued without strict proof that the defendant received the notice of adjournment. Where the offence is punishable with imprisonment a warrant could have been issued in the first instance, instead of a summons, and on the first occasion of non-appearance a warrant could similarly have gone out. If the court does not have the power to
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issue a warrant on the second non-appearance without strict proof that the defendant received the notice of adjournment, there may well be a tendency to issue one on the first occasion instead of following the perhaps more enlightened course of adjourning. Section 15 of the Magi-states' Courts Act 1952 is therefore amended to dispense with the need for the court to be satisfied that a defendant received the notice of adjournment before issuing a warrant under that section for his arrest. The power to issue the warrant will remain restricted by Clause 18(2) of the Bill—the offence must be punishable with imprisonment or the court, having convicted the defendant, must propose to disqualify him.
Courts are not to be enabled to proceed with an adjourned hearing in the absence of the defendant unless satisfied that he received the notice. Where, under Clause 20 of the Bill, the court necessarily adjourns in order to give the defendant an opportunity to be present at a hearing where it is proposed to disqualify him, it would be wrong for it to proceed in his absence without being satisfied that he received the notice. In other cases, where the question of disqualification has not arisen, the fact that the court has adjourned will usually indicate that it would prefer him to be present, and it would be incongruous then to proceed regardless of whether he had received the notice of adjournment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 18, after ("15") insert ("(2)").—(Lord Stonham.)
7.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving a summary of the way in which he sees that Clauses 18 and 20 will work together. I am not sure if I correctly took it all in, because he spoke rather fast. I will not ask him to repeat it to-night, but I will look to see what he said in Hansard. I rise to ask the noble Lord this question. I see that under Clause 20, where there is a question of imposing a sentence of imprisonment or disqualification, that cannot be done in the accused's absence. I think that is right. What bothers me is this—and again I am looking at the matter from the magistrates' point of view. If a Bench of magistrates, with the accused not being present and there

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being no mitigation, decide that there must be disqualification and adjourn the case, can that case at the adjourned hearing be dealt with by a different bench, or has it to be dealt with by the bench of magistrates who heard the case originally? If it is to be dealt with by the bench of magistrates who heard the case—and sometimes in country districts the adjournment will be for as long as a month, for the court sits for only once a month—then I can see great difficulties in the way of the magistrates reconstituting the same court after a month's delay.
If, on the other hand, it can be heard by a differently constituted bench of magistrates, the result seems to me very unsatisfactory because it surely would be quite wrong for a bench which has not heard the evidence to sentence a man to imprisonment, when he is present, merely because the bench which has heard the evidence adjourned the case with a view to passing a sentence of imprisonment. I hope that the noble Lord will think further about this matter, because I see great practical difficulties arising if one has to reconstitute the same court at the adjourned hearing, with all the same magistrates, in order to pass the sentence which those magistrates at the earlier hearing thought was the right one. I do not know whether the noble Lord can say anything about that, but it seems to me to be a real point of difficulty.
LORD STONHAM: I take the noble and learned Viscount's point. I understand that he is presupposing a case where the first court dealt with a case in the absence of the accused, and he is then asking whether, when the accused is finally present, it would be right for another court to sentence him, not having heard the evidence.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The first court decides that he is guilty, they hear all the evidence and say that the right sentence is to send him to prison. They cannot do it because he is not there; and he is brought before the court in a month's time. I ask whether the court will need to be similarly constituted or differently composed.
LORD STONHAM: I have now received the answer just in time. The sentencing justices do not have to be
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those who heard the case. The Magistrates' Court Act provides for that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 23, at end insert ("and proviso (a) to that subsection (restriction on issue of warrant for arrest of defendant who fails to appear at an adjourned trial) shall cease to have effect").—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
7.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE VISCOUNT DILHORNE moved, in subsection (3)(a), after the first "or" to insert: "within six months". The noble and learned Viscount said: In dealing with this clause the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that where there had been a conviction in the absence of the accused it could be vitiated by a statutory declaration. I do not object to that happening, but I am a little worried about one aspect of this matter. A statutory declaration may be true or may be false. It will say that the man did not know of the proceedings until a date specified in the declaration. That may be true or it may be false. But if it is false it will be very difficult indeed to prove the falsity of it. It seems to me that under the clause as it now stands the position may arise that a man who is dealt with in his absence will learn in due course that he has been convicted. He will then wait a bit, and will file his statutory declaration. Whether that statutory declaration be true or false, it clearly has the immediate effect that all the proceedings are void, without prejudice to the validity of the information. Am I not right in thinking that there is a time limit within which an information can be heard and a summons can be issued? I have not looked it up, but I think I am right in saying that there is a time limit and that it is not very long.
Under this clause as it stands a man could, for instance, three years after he has been convicted, file a statutory declaration and of his own act make that conviction void. All he has to say is that he did not hear of the proceedings until a date specified in the declaration. There is no stipulation as to the period within which he has to make that declaration. I consider that a period ought to be specified, otherwise this could operate as a considerable loophole. I suggest that he

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should have the opportunity to make the declaration within six months of the conviction. My reason for saying this is that if he has been convicted and a penalty of any kind has been imposed—for instance, it may be a fine—an attempt ought to have been made to recover that fine from him within the period of six months, in which case he then will have had notice of his conviction and will have had time to make his declaration. If it is done then, the original information can remain and a further summons can be issued. I do not want to take up time on this matter, but I feel that the point requires looking into. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 27, after ("or") insert ("within six months")—(Viscount Dilhorne.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Subsection (3) of the clause enables a defendant to have proceedings which have taken place in his absence annulled, subject to certain conditions. It is necessary to appreciate that it is proposed to amend Rule 76 of the Magistrates' Courts Rules 1952 concerning proof of service of a summons. Rule 76 regards service of a summons as proved only if the defendant was served personally with it or if he acknowledged receipt. It is proposed to amend Rule 76 so as to dispense with the necessity for an acknowledgement of a summons for a summary offence served by being left at the accused's place of abode or sent to him by registered post or recorded delivery. In these circumstances it may happen that the defendant does not know of the proceedings, and it would clearly be wrong for those proceedings to stand.
The subsection provides therefore that, where a magistrates' court has begun to try a case following the issue of a summons under Section 1 of the 1952 Act, the defendant may, at any time during or after the trial, make a statutory declaration that he did not know of the summons or proceedings until a date after the court had begun to try the case. If he then serves the declaration on the clerk to the justices within fourteen days of the date on which he claims the proceedings came to his knowledge, the summons and all subsequent proceedings become void. Where a defendant does not receive a summons he may become
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aware of the proceedings at any time. He may hear about the proceedings before the court begins to try the case. If so, he must act at once, because this new procedure is not open to him. Or the defendant may become aware of the proceedings after the court has begun to try the case, but before it has made its adjudication—again possibly on receipt of the notice of adjournment, perhaps with a view to the imposition of a sentence of imprisonment or disqualification.
Finally, the defendant may remain ignorant of the summons and proceedings until after the court has tried and adjudicated on the case. The first he may know of them may be the notice of fine, or even his arrest on a means inquiry warrant. In these circumstances, he would be required to serve his statutory declaration on the clerk to the justices within fourteen days of that date, but in practice would no doubt do so more quickly.
There is no need to impose a further time limit on the service of a statutory declaration on the clerk of the court. To impose a limit of six months after the close of the trial would be unfair to the defendant who is not reached by the court's subsequent enforcement process until after that date, which would be quite possible. For example, the defendant may have been tried and convicted and fined in his absence; but, because he has been abroad, or his new address cannot be traced, it may be up to a year before the court is able finally to achieve the execution of an enforcement warrant upon him. In such circumstances it would be wrong if the defendant were precluded from showing that he had no knowledge of the proceedings, but it would remain his duty to serve his statutory declaration that he was ignorant of the proceedings within fourteen days of his becoming aware of the proceedings. The clause gives the defendant only 14 days' grace; any longer delay is not the fault of the defendant (who has no knowledge of the proceedings at this stage) and it is wrong that he should be penalised for it.
The time limit on the laying of information, under Section 104 of the Magistrates' Courts Act, is six months for a summary offence and this is why the words "without prejudice to the … information" appear in Clause 18(3). It is said by the noble and learned Viscount that all a person has to do is to swear

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a declaration to have the whole matter automatically set aside, and this is really requiring very little of him. But, of course, it is we who are wanting to simplify things by not always having to prove a personal service and so on, and if one is going to do that then there must be a right for somebody who knows absolutely nothing at all about the matter, and who has been tried and convicted without his having any opportunity of defending himself. We must agree that in those circumstances we must go back to the beginning, because that is the only fair thing to do. In a sense it is a convenience for society to depart from our hitherto rather strict rules about personal service in legal and, certainly, criminal proceedings; but if, for our convenience, we are to do that, then if someone does not get notice and if he knows nothing about it at all we must start again.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: The difficulty about this clause, as it is worded at the moment, is that the summons and all subsequent proceedings become void on the making of a statutory declaration, whether that declaration is true or false. While everybody would welcome the idea that an honest man, who makes an honest declaration that he did not know of the summons or the procedings until, say a year after the event, should be able to have the proceedings declared void, there is a tremendous loophole which enables a dishonest man to make a dishonest statutory declaration that not for months, or it may be years, after had he heard of the trial. It seems to me that if this clause is to be kept in this form, there must be some provision to test the truthfulness or falsity of the declaration.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his reply, and I do not disagree with his proposition that if you try a man in his absence and he is convicted but has not heard of the conviction there must be a procedure for quashing that conviction. But I am worried about the provisions of this clause as it stands because, as I said, it seems to me—and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice agrees to open a wide door to the dishonest man, and a door where it will not be very easy to find out if he
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is being dishonest when he walks through it.
I put this to the noble and learned Lord because it is a real problem. Again, I am not going to press it tonight, but I would ask him to think about it. Am I not right in saying—and perhaps he can answer this tonight—that a man could swear a declaration two years after his conviction, and say—it may be true or it may be false—that he only heard of that conviction less than 14 days before the expiry of those two years? That will automatically have the effect of voiding the conviction.
That would be all right if he could he tried again for that offence; but can he be, having regard to the time limit on the hearing of information and the hearing of summonses? Even if he could be, is it likely—if we take, say, a motoring offence—that after the lapse of two years the prosecution will again be able to call the evidence which they called at the original trial? This needs more thinking about, though I am not against it in principle, and it requires more safeguards written into it to prevent abuse of the right which is here being given to the defendant when the trial is in his absence. Having said that, and in the hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will look at this point again, as I think he will—is that so?—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes. I quite understand what is said. Of course, there is a penalty of two years for making a false declaration, and while I quite understand what is said I am still not quite clear how the Amendment proposed by the noble and learned Viscount really meets the point. If I have been abroad and have not had any notice at all and I come back after six months, it cannot be right that I cannot get the proceedings set aside.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am not arguing so much that the Amendment is right—if I may say so, that is not my point. I put down this Amendment to draw attention to this difficulty. Maybe the period of six months is not right. There are two ways by which this could be dealt with. I am speaking off the cuff, but I hope the Government will think about it. One way is by prescribing a time limit—it may not be six months; it may be nine months, it may be 12 months. I quite agree that it might be

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somewhat arbitrary, but taking into account the probabilities of getting notice there might be some provision for enlarging the time period on the defendant's satisfying the court that there was a good reason for the enlargement of the time. Another point which I think will have to be considered, if this clause is kept in anything like its present form, is the enlarging of the time within which the original information or summons can be heard.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that point is covered, because the last two lines of subsection (3)(b) of Clause 18 say:
"without prejudice to the validity of the information, the summons and all subsequent proceedings shall be void."
So the validity of the information, if it has been laid in due time, whatever the time limit may be, is preserved.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I should like to look at that, because I was under the impression—I may be wrong—that there was a time limit within which information had to he heard, as apart from a summons. At any rate, we need not pursue that now. I think there is a point here which deserves attention, but with the leave of the House I will withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 [Restriction on issue of search warrants under Obscene Publications Act 1959]:
On Question, Whether Clause 19 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: As I know it is desired that we should complete Clause 29 to-night, and also that we should if possible rise by 8.30 p.m. or so, I propose not to move the deletion of this clause. I shall make no comment on the clause at this stage, and I shall put down the Motion again on Report. I hope that that will be a convenient course for those of us who need to get home at a reasonable hour.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 23 agreed to.
7.50 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 23, to insert the following new clause:
Extension of costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952.
".—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952 shall apply to proceedings under section 6, 8 or 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 for dealing with an offender subject to a probation order or an order for conditional discharge, and to proceedings under section 31(1) of this Act for dealing with an offender subject to a suspended sentence within the meaning of Part II of this Act, as if the offender had been tried in those proceedings for the offence for which the order was made or the sentence passed.
(2) The provisions of the said Act of 1952 other than section 6 (costs as between parties) shall apply with all necessary modifications to proceedings in which it is alleged that an offender required on conviction of an indictable offence to enter into a recognizance to keep the peace or be of good behaviour has failed to comply with a condition of that recognizance, as if that failure were an indictable offence committed in the same place as the offence of which he was convicted.
(3) Where any proceedings mentioned in either of the foregoing subsections take place before a court of assize or quarter sessions and the fund out of which the costs of those proceedings fall to be paid by virtue of that subsection is maintained by a local authority other than the authority for the local government area in which that court is held, those costs shall—

(a) be paid in the first instance by the local authority for that area; and

(b be recoverable, together with such sum (if any) in respect of the expenses of holding that court as may be determined in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State under section 18(3) of the Criminal Justice Administration Act 1962 (contributions to certain costs), from the local authority maintaining that fund.

(4) Where proceedings under section 8 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 for dealing with an offender subject to a probation order or an order for conditional discharge or under section 31(1) of this Act for dealing with an offender subject to a suspended sentence take place before a court of assize or quarter sessions before which the offender is convicted of an indictable offence committed while he was so subject, or by which he is sentenced for any such offence after being committed for sentence to that court, the costs of those proceedings shall be treated for the purposes of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952 as part of the costs of the proceedings in which he was convicted or sentenced.
(5) Where any proceedings mentioned in subsection (1) of this section take place before a magistrates' court, and relate to an order made or a sentence passed for an offence committed outside the local government area

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for which or for part of which that court acts, the offence shall be treated for the purposes of section 7(1) of the said Act of 1952 (local funds out of which costs are to be paid) as having been committed in that area.
(6) In this section "local authority" means the council of a county or county borough or the Greater London Council and "local government area" means a county, county borough or Greater London.
The noble and learned Lord said: The purpose of this new clause is to extend the application of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952 to certain criminal proceedings which are at present outside the scope of the Act, in order that a court may have power to make an order for the payment of prosecution or defence costs, including witnesses' expenses, arising in those proceedings. The Costs in Criminal Cases Act at present enables an order for the payment out of local funds of the costs of the prosecution or, if the accused is acquitted, of the costs of the defence, to be made by a court of assize or quarter sessions before which a person is prosecuted or tried on indictment or inquisition or to which he is committed for sentence under various enactments; namely, a committal to quarter sessions (a) under Section 28 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 with a view to borstal training; (b) under Section 29 of that Act for sentence for an indictable offence tried summarily; and (c) with a view to the making of a hospital order with an order restricting a person's discharge, under Part V of the Mental Health Act 1959. A court of assize also has power (at present limited, but extended by Clause 24 of the Bill to all cases in which a person is prosecuted or tried on indictment or inquisition) to order the accused, on conviction, to pay the costs of the prosecution or to order the prosecutor, if the accused is acquitted, to pay the costs of the defence. An order for costs may be made by a magistrates' court dealing with a case summarily or enquiring into an offence as examining justices.
It is necessary to make the 1952 Act applicable to proceedings under Clause 31 of the Bill in which a person subject to a suspended sentence who is convicted of a further offence is dealt with in respect of the suspended sentence. It is also desirable that the Act should apply to certain existing types of proceedings in criminal courts which are at
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present outside the scope of the Act. The proceedings in question are, first, proceedings in which a person who is subject to a probation order or an order for conditional discharge is dealt with by a court for failure to comply with a requirement of the probation order or for the original offence following the commission of a further offence. Secondly, there are proceedings in which a person who has been convicted of an indictable offence and required to enter into a recognisance to keep the peace or be of good behaviour is dealt with by a court for failure to comply with a condition of the recognisance.
The effect of the Amendment is to give to the court which deals with an offender in such proceedings the same powers of awarding costs as if the offender had been tried in those proceedings for the original offence as a result of which the suspended sentence was imposed or the probation order or order of conditional discharge made, or the recognisance entered into. This means that, in general, where a court makes an order for the payment of costs out of local funds in such proceedings, the costs will be paid out of the funds of the county or county borough where the original offence was committed.
For reasons of practical convenience, however, this general principle is subject to the following modifications. First, where the costs of proceedings before a court of assize or quarter sessions fall to be paid by a local authority other than the authority for the area in which the court is held, the costs will be payable in the first instance by the latter authority, which will recover them from the authority responsible for bearing the expenditure. Secondly, where a person subject to a probation order or order of conditional discharge, or on whom a suspended sentence has been imposed, is convicted of or sentenced for a further offence by a court of assize or quarter sessions and the court then proceeds to deal with him for the original offence or in respect of the suspended sentence, the costs of the latter proceedings will be treated as part of the costs of the proceedings in which he was convicted of or sentenced for the further offence. Finally, where the proceedings for dealing with an offender subject to a probation order, order for conditional discharge or suspended sentence take place before a

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magistrates' court, for the purpose of determining which local authority should bear the costs the offence will be treated as having been committed in the area for which the court acts. Unless the Committee wish me to deal with each subsection separately, I will leave the matter there, and I beg to move accordingly.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 23, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Again, this is clearly a very sensible and timely Amendment which takes account not only of the new position under Clause 31 but of various anomalies and inconveniencies which have doubtless arisen and were not foreseen in the legislation in 1952. I am sure, therefore, that noble Lords on this side of the Committee will welcome it. I would make only one comment: that the more the noble and learned Lord does tidying up operations on this sort of matter the more it seems to me we shall be in need of something in the region of seven or eight Consolidation Bills very soon.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24 [Amendments of Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (1), to insert the following new subsections:
"( ) Sections 1 and 5 of the said Act of 1952 (costs awarded by assizes, quarter sessions or magistrates' courts out of local funds), section 8 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1966 (payment of expenses of witnesses in connection with criminal appeals out of local funds) and paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the said Act of 1966 payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses of witnesses in connection with appeals to the Courts-Martial Appeal Court) shall apply in relation to a registered medical practitioner making a written report to a court in pursuance of a request to which this subsection applies as they apply in relation to a person called to give evidence at the instance of the court, and in the case of a report made in pursuance of such a request made by a magistrates' court shall so apply notwithstanding that the proceedings for the purposes of which the report is made are not proceedings to which the said section 5 applies.
( ) The last foregoing subsection applies to a request to a registered medical practitioner to make a written or oral report on the medical condition of an offender or defendant, being a request made by a court—
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(a) for the purpose of determining whether or not to make an order under section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (probation orders requiring treatment for mental condition) or section 60 of the Mental Health Act 1959 (hospital orders and guardianship orders) or otherwise for the purpose of determining the most suitable method of dealing with an offender; or

(b) in exercise of the powers conferred by section 26 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 (remand of a defendant for medical examination and requirement of such an examination on committing a defendant for trial on bail).

( ) Sections 1 and 5 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952 shall apply to a person properly attending at the instance of the court to give evidence as they apply to a person called to give evidence at the instance of the court."
The noble and learned Lord said: The main purpose of this clause is to enable the courts to order the payment out of local funds of a fee to a medical practitioner who furnishes a written medical report on a defendant at the request of the court. Provision already exists (in Sections 1 and 5 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952, in Section 8 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1966 and in paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the latter Act) for payments to be made out of local funds to a doctor who attends court and makes an oral report on a defendant, but there is no corresponding power to order payment for a medical report which is made in writing.
A medical report may be obtained by remanding a defendant in custody or by arranging for him to see a doctor while he is at large. When a person is committed in custody for a medical report the medical examination is arranged by the prison authorities and the prison doctor is not paid a separate fee for such an examination; if an outside doctor is also asked to examine the patient, his fees are paid by the Home Office. It is where the defendant is not in custody that difficulty sometimes arises. There is no statutory provision enabling anyone to pay the fees of the doctors who examine a defendant in such circumstances. Where the examination is carried out by a hospital doctor, the examination and the furnishing of a report are at present among the services which are normally provided without charge in accordance with the doctor's terms and conditions of service under the National Health Service Act 1946. This position may change, however, as the Ministry of Health are

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shortly to review, with the Joint Consultants' Committee, the current classification of work which is done free by hospital doctors as part of their duties and work which is not part of their duties and for which they may charge a fee. Moreover, if a report is furnished by a general practitioner, or if a report by a second doctor is necessary—as is the case where a court contemplates the making of a hospital order under Section 60 of the Mental Health Act 1960—this work is already outside the scope of the services provided free of charge under the doctor's conditions of service. It is intended that the power to order payment of a fee out of local funds should be used by the courts only in those cases where the provision of a written report is outside a doctor's terms of service.
Subsection (2) is, I think, clear. Further, as Section 5 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952 relates only to indictable cases in magistrates' courts, and as it is necessary to provide these courts with power to order payment for written medical reports in both indictable and summary cases, the subsection provides that where a medical report is furnished at the request of a magistrates' court the provisions of the 1952 Act shall apply notwithstanding that the proceedings are not proceedings to which Section 5 applies. Subsection (3) provides that subsection (2) shall apply to a request by a court for a written or oral medical report for the purposes which are there set out.
The purpose of subsection (4) is to enable the court of assize, quarter sessions, or a magistrates' court, to order payment out of local funds to a person who attends at the instance of the court to give evidence, but who, in the event, is not called to give evidence. Section 1(6) and Section 5(6) of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1952, already defines a witness as
"a person properly attending to give evidence, whether or not he gives evidence."
But this provision does not cover persons attending at the instance of a court, who may be made the subject of an order for payment only if they are "called to give evidence". Subsection (4) will place persons attending to give evidence at the instance of the court in the same position as other persons properly attending to give evidence, and enable them to receive payment irrespective of whether they actually give that evidence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 38, at end insert the said subsections. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
8.1 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Again, this seems to be an admirable Amendment, and one which I should advise the Committee to accept. There can be no doubt that the doctor's reports and, in the case of an order restricting discharge, his oral evidence are now an absolutely crucial part of the machinery of the court, both under the Mental Health Act and also in cases where a probation order with a condition of residence in an institution for mental treatment is required. I know that sometimes these matters have to be dealt with rather quickly and at the last moment, particularly where a second report has to be acquired for the purposes of compliance with the Mental Health Act.
Having listened to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, it seems to me that all possible combinations of events have now been covered, save for this: in the second of the new subsections which the noble and learned Lord is proposing to insert, it says that the request must be "made by a court". It usually happens that these things do not turn out in any clear cut way. It is true that sometimes the court says, "We think that this is the sort of case where we should like to act under Section 60 of the Mental Health Act, and therefore we must have a second Report." In such a case, no doubt the written report would be at the request of the court. Equally, it may appear to the county prosecuting solicitor, or one of the officials of the court, that for the sake of safety, and so as not to hold up the case when perhaps the accused has been brought under escort from somewhere or other, they ought to have a second report in any event in order to be perfectly safe.
I simply raise this query: what is a "request made by a court"? Does it have to be made in open court? Will a request by the clerk in advance of the hearing suffice? Is the noble and learned Lord satisfied that all possible methods by which these reports may be required are covered, either as a request by the court or as the evidence of a witness which is covered under other legislation?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged. We shall certainly consider the point which the noble Viscount has raised.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 25 to 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Punishment of persistent offenders
28.—(1) No person shall be sentenced by a court to preventive detention or corrective training.
(2) Where an offender is convicted on indictment of an offence punishable with imprisonment for a term of two years or more and the conditions specified in subsection (4) of this section are satisfied, then, if the court is satisfied, by reason of his previous conduct and of the likelihood of his committing further offences, that it is expedient to protect the public from him for a substantial time, the court may impose an extended term of imprisonment under this section.
(3) The extended term which may be imposed under this section of any offence may exceed the maximum term authorised for the offence apart from this section if the maximum so authorised is less than ten years, but shall not exceed ten years if the maximum so authorised is less than ten years or exceed five years if the maximum so authorised is less than five years.
(4) The conditions referred to in subsection (2) of this section are:—

(b) the offender has been convicted on indictment on at least three previous occasions since he attained the age of twenty-one of offences punishable on indictment with imprisonment for a term of two years or more and that on at least two of those occasions a sentence of imprisonment (other than a suspended sentence which has not taken effect) or of corrective training or of preventive detention was passed on him; and

(c) the total length of the sentences of imprisonment, corrective training or preventive detention to which he was sentenced on those occasions (taking into account any period by which any such sentence falls to be reduced under section 17(2) of the Criminal Justice Administration Act 1962) was not less than five years.

8.5 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out from "for any offence" to the end of the subsection, and to insert:
"shall not exceed twice the maximum term authorised for the offence apart from this section, or fourteen years, whichever is the less."
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The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 36. It is followed in the Marshalled List by two Government Amendments which I think are principally designed to improve the drafting; and then I have two Amendments down to one of those Amendments. I do not wish to embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, in any way, but it would be perfectly acceptable to me if, on this group of Amendments, we could have a general debate about preventive detention and what we are to do about it. I think that would save time, and at the end the Amendments could be put separately without further debate.
I need hardly say that I welcome subsection (1) of this clause, the subsection which will abolish preventive detention and corrective training. I welcome it particularly because I announced to Parliament on July 23, 1964, as Home Secretary, the then Government's intention to abolish both these penalties, and my only regret is that it has not been possible to legislate to that effect earlier. The purpose of my Amendments is to ascertain from the Government why they have departed in certain particulars from the proposals which I was responsible for announcing to the House of Commons some three years ago.
If I may remind your Lordships, this originated from a Report in 1963 from the Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders which recommended the abolition of preventive detention, and made certain suggestions as to the longer periods of ordinary imprisonment with which it should be replaced. I am sure that the main purpose of that Report was right, and indeed if I remember correctly I acted immediately to amend the prison rules so that that the troublesome five-sixths rule, which caused a great deal of ill-feeling in the prisons, was abolished; but to go further needed statutory action, and we now have that to-day.
I do not know whether it is right or not to say that it is unfortunate that the experiment of preventive detention and corrective training failed. I think one may look on the good side and say that we are now getting so much greater variety in the possible prison treatments that we can give to different kinds of prisoners under modern classification, that there is no need still to call different forms of custody in prison under different names.

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Fortunately, we are getting well towards the point where all prisoners will receive what it was thought in days past only a certain number could be given in the form of corrective training. That at any rate is the purpose, but the main issue here is what shall be put in place of the old preventive detention.
I think that both my announcement in 1964 and the proposals in this clause are an improvement on what was recommended by the Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders. That Advisory Council recommended no special provision of extended sentence where the sentence was five years or under. What it recommended was that the courts should be empowered to pass sentence up to ten years imprisonment on persistent offenders convicted of offences at present punishable with imprisonment for terms of five years or more. That seemed to my colleagues and me, and to the Government, an inadequate solution, in that it provided nothing at all of a special character for the persistent offender who was guilty of an offence punishable with imprisonment for a maximum of less than five years, or, as in the case of many offences, where the maximum is two years. That would not be covered or provided for at all.
It seemed to me at the time (this is the first point I want to ask the Government) that it was a mistake to limit the maximum sentence in a very serious case to ten years, unless, of course, a longer period was provided as a maximum for the ordinary sentence for that offence. Under preventive detention the maximum sentence is fourteen years. Though I am well aware that the ordinary sentence period was seven or eight years, nevertheless it seemed to me, and it still seems to me, that there is some value in having authority in a really bad case to extend a sentence beyond ten years and up to fourteen years. That is the point with which my first Amendment deals.
I appreciate that the proposals in this clause give a considerable flexibility in shorter sentences. I had proposed that a two-year sentence could be doubled. The clause would provide that a two-year sentence could be increased to five years. The principal difference here is that the Government are proposing that none of these extended sentences should go beyond ten years. whereas the old pre-
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ventive detention maximum was fourteen years.
The other change which I perceive in the Government's proposal is that a person should not be sentenced to what is called here an extended sentence unless, under Amendment No. 38, one of the sentences which he has already received was a sentence of imprisonment for a term of three years or more. That is coupled in Amendment No. 38 with the provision that he must have been sentenced to a total of not less than five years in the past. In the proposals which I announced my intention of putting before Parliament it was suggested that a person would be liable to an extended sentence, and in my plan to a double sentence, if he had in the past served three years, not five years. Again, I should like to ask the Government why they have altered that period of three to five.
What is at the back of my mind is this. I think that the Government may possibly be taking a different view from mine as to the kind of persistent offender who is to be dealt with here. I had envisaged that when we replaced preventive detention there should be provision for the persistent petty offender, the man who never did anything that was terribly serious but was an unmitigated nuisance to society; the sort of person who could never keep out of prison for long; the sort of person who could not keep his hands off other people's property. Sorry as one is for people like that, it appeared to me—and still does—that in planning our substitute for preventive detention we should not forget about them. I know how difficult they are to provide for adequately and constructively in prison, but we ought not to give up hope. We ought to have a prison system which is diversified enough to enable us to do something constructive with the persistent petty offender.
I have the idea that the Government are not considering any special plans for these people. They are considering only people who have served at least one sentence of three years and have actually served sentences of five years in the aggregate. That will exclude a number of persistent petty offenders whom my plans would have included. There may be good reason for these changes. I doubt whether any of us could put his hand on his heart and say that the views

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expressed here to-day will inevitably be proved correct in ten years' time. Those who expressed views in Parliament on preventive detention and corrective training in the old days were absolutely sincere and genuine, and knowledgeable and well-advised, but it did not work out right. What we ought to do is to put our heads together and make every endeavour to see that these new plans will work out right.
I have put down these Amendments partly to invite the Government to explain why they have made these changes and partly to try to elicit an answer to the question whether they consider that the extended sentence should apply only to people who have committed some fairly serious offence and not to persistent petty offenders. If Clause 28 is not to apply to persistent petty offenders, then I am entitled to ask the Government what they propose to do about them.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 15, leave out from ("offence") to end of line 20, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Brooke of Cumnor.)
8.17 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I think that there is a real difference of aim here. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, clearly intended that preventive detention, or what would take its place, should catch the persistent petty offender. It is equally clear that the Bill as drafted, with the Amendments proposed by my noble friend Lord Stonham, is designed to catch only the more serious offender and exclude the persistent petty offender. In other words, these clauses are to carry out the purpose which was laid down in the White Paper The Adult Offender, in which it was suggested that the persistent offender:
"must be clearly defined in such a way as to apply only to delinquents whose character and record of offences are such as to put it beyond all doubt that they are a real menace to society and exclude the petty criminal who commits a series of lesser offences."
The noble Lord is trying to take us much closer to preventive detention as it was. For instance, he is trying to restore the maximum of fourteen years, whereas the Government are proposing an absolute maximum for extended imprisonment of ten years, or five if the normal penalty is less than five years' imprisonment.
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When I read the proposals in the White Paper I put down a Question in your Lordships' House to find out how far the proposals, which are those in the unamended Bill, would exclude the petty offender and how far they would carry out the intention expressed in the White Paper of subjecting to extended imprisonment only the really dangerous criminal who is a menace to society. The answer I got was that, of 178 detainees under preventive detention examined in the Fifth Report of the Home Office Research Unit, 176 would still be caught by the new proposals for extended imprisonment; and of these 91 would be convicted of offences against property involving less than £100 and without personal violence. In other words, they were not offenders who could be said to be a dangerous menace to society.
It appears that in the Bill with the Amendments proposed by my noble friend the conditions that qualify for extended imprisonment will be made much more rigid, so that we may hope that these petty offenders who have committed offences against property involving less than £100, and involving no personal violence, will not be subject to extended imprisonment. My noble friend Lord Stonham proposes to amend the Bill so that anyone will qualify for extended imprisonment if he has a total of not less than five years' imprisonment, and if he has been in prison either once for three years or more for one offence, or twice for two years or more for one offence; whereas the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, proposes to cast the net much wider. He proposes to bring it down to three years previous imprisonment, instead of a total of five years, and he removes the requirement that the prisoner should have been subject to previous sentences of imprisonment of a specified length. The net result would be that we should be getting back very close to the old form of preventive detention, and that we should certainly still be catching a high proportion in this extended imprisonment of persons who are not dangerous menaces to society but are admittedly nuisances.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: Perhaps I might say a word or two on this Amendment. I say, quite frankly, that I do not think I mind very much what is done. I have been consulted on

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some such clause as this by the Home Office under three different Home Secretaries, each of whom has had a different approach; and each has said, after we had arrived at some amicable agreement, that a fresh look must be taken and we must start all over again. On the whole, I think I prefer a maximum of fourteen years, if only because the courts always envisage that there can be another case that is worse than the one they are dealing with, and, therefore, they never get anywhere near the maximum. And if the maximum is lowered, then I think, on the whole, instead of giving under preventive detention, where the maximum is fourteen years, seven or eight years, if the maximum is ten, probably no more than six years will be given. A period of fourteen years gives one a little greater elasticity.
When one comes to the qualifying conditions, they are a "headache" to administer in practice. Instead of thinking what sentence is the appropriate one in any particular case, the court has to see that this, that and the other has been complied with, and there are often mistakes. Ideally one would like to leave it to the discretion of the court. But I frankly confess that, as soon as one realises that there are no fewer than 347 people at the moment who would be entitled to give an extended sentence, one recognises that it is necessary to impose qualifying conditions, and rather strict ones.
Mention has been made of the object of this provision—whether it is to deal with petty offenders or the more serious cases. My difficulty is to know what is meant by a petty offender or the more serious case. The sort of case I have in mind that we get before the courts is what I call the constant false pretender, a crime which now merits five years' imprisonment. This is the sort of man who goes on, perhaps stealing a cheque book and then passing worthless cheques. He comes before the court with a great number of cases taken into consideration, and he goes on, getting perhaps slightly increased sentences, but never getting up to five years. Finally, a time comes when perhaps you get to a figure of something like 248 (or whatever it may be) of these cases, and the court says: "For the protection of society, although they are comparatively small sums, he
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must be put away for a substantial length of time." That is probably never done until the maximum for the offence has been given at least once.
Therefore, I do not think it really matters, when one is dealing with that sort of person, whether the two previous convictions that he must have had have attracted three or four years in total, because the court will never give an extended sentence until the aggregate is well above that. On the whole, I am quite content with the conditions. I should prefer the raising of the maximum term which can notionally be imposed from ten to fourteen years.
VISCOUNT D1LHORNE: I cannot speak on this subject with anything like the authority of the Lord Chief Justice, but I support him in thinking that there is a strong case for putting the maximum higher than it is in the Bill, for the reason that courts, as the noble and learned Lord has just said, seldom think the case with which they are dealing is the worst possible case of that category.
I have risen to my feet on this Amendment because of what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger. She said that these people who are petty offenders are not dangerous to society; they are offenders against property. Looking back over the years, I think that some of the cruellest cases I have seen have been where people of limited means have been defrauded of those means by conduct that was cruel and heartless. When it has been done, it has been an offence against property, and an offence which one might say, compared with some others, was a petty offence. I think that all those who have had any experience of the administration of the criminal law are familiar with cases of the petty criminal if you like to call him that, who goes round a council estate, or goes round places where the people are really of poor means, and defrauds people by false pretences of money that they can ill afford to part with. It may be right to say that that is not, in the words of the noble Baroness, a danger to society, but I am not sure that it is right so to regard it. I feel that this Bill will be less good than it ought to be unless it contains some provision for dealing with that category of offender.
The noble Baroness says that there is a difference of aim here between my noble

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friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor and the Government. That may well be the case. It may well be that, so far as this clause is concerned, there is a difference of aim. I do not think I should mind very much about that if I could be satisfied by the Government that there is some machinery in the Bill to deal with this type of persistent petty offender, who can cause great suffering and hardship by a series of petty offences against property to people who can ill afford the loss of that property. I do not see anything in this Bill, apart from this clause, which makes provision for that. This is why I support the Amendment moved by my noble friend.
8.30 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for the suggestion he made, that we should have one debate, and also for the welcome that he has given to the belated abolition of preventive detention. I am also grateful to everyone who has spoken for the helpful tone in which the discussion has been held, because if there is one thing in penal reform which I have worked hard at over the last 19 years it is the abolition of preventive detention. Its introduction was one of the things which I regretted most of all about the 1945–50 Parliament, in whose other Acts I was very proud to take a part
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, quite rightly pointed out the differences between the proposals which he made for replacing preventive detention and those which were made by the Advisory Council for the Treatment of Offenders. I recall that when his noble friend, Lord Derwent, then Minister of State, announced those proposals in your Lordships' House, I then gave it as my view that the proposals for replacement of preventive detention would be no improvement whatsoever on the situation which had been prevailing for a long time. Therefore I was very sad when I saw the noble Lord's Amendment, because I had the feeling that we were back to square one, or would be if the Amendment was accepted. Therefore I am the more grateful for the way in which Lord Brooke of Cumnor has explained his purpose.
I propose to try to start the extremely difficult task of persuading some—I was going to say supremely eminent people,
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but that would be laying it on too thick—some extremely eminent people on my right. First of all, we propose that sentences carrying a maximum of less than five years should carry an extended sentence of five years as a maximum. Lord Brooke of Cumnor proposes that they should merely be doubled. We also propose that where the normal maximum sentence exceeds five years the maximum for an extended sentence should be ten years, and Lord Brooke of Cumnor proposes 14 years. I want to say why I think we are right in both cases.
I agree—and in this I agree with the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne—that continual thefts of property are not only vexatious but cause great distress. Even the entry of a burglar or housebreaker into someone's home is a dreadful and an upsetting thing, and its effect can go on perhaps for years; and even if almost nothing is stolen I do not underestimate the consequences of such acts. But we are here considering the length of sentence, whether it be 10 or 14 years in the maximum, and what good it will do both to the offender and to society. These are relevant facts for consideration.
I want to examine first of all the lower end of our proposals and the lower end of Lord Brooke of Cumnor's proposals. First of all, the maximum sentence for cruelty to children is only two years. That is an appalling offence, in my submission—I repeat, an appalling offence. Lord Brooke of Cumnor would make it in an extended sentence for the persistent child beater four years; under the Bill it would be five years. I think that a man who persistently assaults a policeman in the execution of his duty should be dealt with severely by society, but at present the maximum penalty is two years. It would be four years by Lord Brooke of Cumnor's proposal; five years by the proposal in the Bill. The man who is a persistent procuror of prostitutes can get only two years at present. He would get four years if an extended sentence was doubled under Lord Brooke of Cumnor's proposal; and five years under the Bill's proposals. I have not just taken those instances to make a case; I have taken them because, in my submission, they are bad. Those are the kind of cases I hate, where I should like to see the ordinary penalties more severe. But, in any case,

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we are doing something about them there for the persistent people and making the penalty five years, and, in my submission, at the lower end of the scale our proposal is an improvement on that which the noble Lord put forward.
Now we come to offences at the other end of the scale—I will come to the middle ones later, because I think the middle ones are the crux of the matter. I had a look at Archbold and I picked out, or tried to pick out, the offences which were punishable in the maximum with a sentence of 14 years or life. The list was so long that I picked only a few. I will give just a few of what I regard as serious offences, some more serious than others. These are all life: armed assault or assault with aggravation; burglary; grievous bodily harm with attempt to maim; throwing corrosives; arson, 14 years or life; explosive offences, 14 years for some, life for others. Firearms: either using to resist arrest or endanger life, 14 years. Forgery offences, many of 14 years, some for life. Housebreaking, 14 years if a felony is committed. Larceny by a tenant or lodger, seven years if the value is over £5. There are not many offences, other than those two-year offences I quoted earlier, where the maximum is not 14 years. I have had to search and I found only two which were seven years.
A NOBLE LORD: False pretences.
LORD STONHAM: The kind of offence the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, was speaking about was very often larceny of various kinds.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I was thinking in particular, as a matter of fact, of false pretences.
LORD STONHAM: I mentioned one form of false pretences. But I will go on. I would mention that larceny covers something like 80 per cent. to 90 per cent. of indictable offences and therefore it covers an enormous field in crime, and when you mention that the penalty for larceny by a tenant or lodger is seven years and for all other larceny offences (except simple larceny, which is five years) it is fourteen years or more, you already have your maximum. In two cases the maximum for larceny is life. Malicious damage: in four cases, fourteen years; and in nine cases, life. Demanding money by menaces, life. Poaching has a seven-
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year maximum. That would be fourteen years if we doubled it. It is already fourteen years if three or more people go out together to poach armed. Rape, life. Robbery, fourteen years maximum. Armed robbery or robbery with violence, life. Sexual intercourse with a girl under 13, life.
The point I am making is that if it is what I think all of us would regard as a serious offence, I am not arguing and you can put all the penalties up to life and say that it is necessary, but, in my submission, in relation to the Amendment, fourteen years for all these offences, or life, is enough.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Could the noble Lord deal with the false pretences case, because that is the one I had particularly in mind—the case of a housewife in a council house being deprived by false pretences?
LORD STONHAM: I agree. But in relation to the Amendment and the Bill the maximum for false pretences is not the same in all cases because there are various kinds of false pretences. In most cases, doubling it would bring the extended sentence up to at least fourteen years, I agree. But in other cases the ten year extended sentence which is in the Bill would apply, and I should have thought that where one is dealing with that kind of person there is enough scope in the sentence of ten years. At the moment one offender of whom I know, an old, regular customer, who would I am quite sure qualify as a persistent offender, got ten years for an extreme offence. We must have some regard for consistency in these matters. I think I am right in saying that it would be a sentence of ten years for false pretences. The ordinary maximum is five years, and therefore the extended maximum would be ten years under the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor. So on the question of false pretences there is absolutely nothing between us.
I should now like to point out another matter not mentioned by the noble Lord. Lord Brooke of Cumnor. It is that with the extended sentence under this Bill the offender will either be in prison or under supervision for three-thirds of his sentence. I think that is a significant fact.
VISCOUNT DILHORINTE: Three-thirds?
LORD STONHAM: That is right—the whole of it. If I may put it this way, whichever alternative you choose, if he is released on licence after one-third of his sentence he stays on licence for the remaining two-thirds; if he is released in the ordinary way after two-thirds of his sentence, he stays on licence for the remaining one-third.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, and his noble and learned friend Viscount Dilhorne asked what are our intentions about this kind of petty persistent offender. This is one of them. The kind of person that we mainly have in mind will need continuous support of one kind or another. They are the petty persistent offenders, the socially inadequate people. We are rearranging our prison system in order to look after them better, to have them in "C" class prisons, and to enable them to have some responsibility.
May I now come to a matter which will be completely within the knowledge of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice. In February, 1962, the Lord Chief Justice issued a practice direction with regard to preventive detention. I cannot quote it verbatim now—my memory is not what it was; I used to be able to quote it in full. But at least he will agree with me that it was to draw the attention of his fellow judges, and those with the power of sentencing, to the importance of reserving this particular sentence for the more important crimes. I think he will also agree with me that this practice direction during the first two or three years or so was not as effective as he might have hoped, and it is only since the announcement by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, when he was Home Secretary, of the intention to abolish preventive detention, that this sentence began to disappear.
In those days, we had a sentence of fourteen years for stealing an overcoat; we had a sentence of eight years for false pretences in obtaining apples to the value of 1s. 6½d.; and we had eight years for stealing two books. These are not just sentences to me; they are men; I knew them. I have known them for years, and hundreds of others. I do not know them now—I am not allowed to know them as a Minister—but they are men, and I do not want the possibility of that kind of
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sentence being passed for that kind of offence. It is my ministerial responsibility to try to get them back into society again. There will have to be ways other than long prison sentences.
My noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger, who has striven manfully—if she will not he offended by the term—in this field and with so much knowledge and energy, asked me that question in January, 1966, and this is another of the reasons why we have amended our proposals—that is, the Amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, will move Amendments, in order to try to be more selective about the people who will be given extended sentences, so that the more serious offenders will be given extended and longer sentences.
I was asked whether that would apply to petty offenders in future. Only the judges can answer that. In some cases it will, because if a man commits an offence of, say, stealing £5 or more, which incurs a maximum prison sentence of 7 years, then obviously if he went on doing it he could be given an extended sentence of 10 years, although I think we should all call him a persistent petty offender. But we have done some research on this matter, and the Bill as it stands would mean that of the persistent offenders—P.D. men—sentenced in 1957. 70 to 80 per cent. of those eligible for preventive detention and 99 per cent. of those so sentenced would have been liable to extended sentences under the present provisions of the Bill which I now seek to amend. Under the amended provisions of the Bill, if your Lordships approve the Amendments, 50 to 60 per cent. of them would still be liable for extended sentences, and of those 85 to 90 per cent. would receive extended sentences.
I hope, as a result of our discussions, and particularly as a result of the advice given by the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, that the percentages will be lower than that. I think there will be a realisation that for the violent, savage offender—the enemy of society—the existing maximum sentences, most of which are life sentences, are adequate. The offender who persistently commits an offence of a fairly serious nature will run a great risk of getting his sentence extended up to 10 years, and that will mean he will be in prison or under supervision for 10 years. It will mean 10 years.

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But for the petty offender, the socially inadequate, the person who for most of his life needs constant support, long incarceration in prison is expensive, stupid and wasteful, both of men's lives and our money. We are providing, and will provide, more and different forms of treatment for them—perhaps even non-custodial treatment, in the sense that it will not be prison. This, I am sure, is the way to deal with them, and this is the way we are going on. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for creating an opportunity to discuss this matter, and I hope that if I have not entirely satisfied him that the facts are on my side I have convinced him that I believe they are.
8.50 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I appreciate the intense feeling with which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, approaches this whole subject, and I give him full credit for it. He, for his part. will appreciate that I envy him that it should have fallen to him to bring before your Lordships the proposal to abolish preventive detention, because I think it has gone on for too long. I felt sure that it should no longer be a separate form of penal treatment, and I wanted to see greater flexibility. I have listened very carefully to what he has said. and. like him, I had studied that Appendix to Archbold before this debate. I say this with diffidence in the presence of the Lord Chief Justice, but study of that appendix and the course of this debate combine to persuade me that some of these maximum sentences need looking at afresh, lust as much as some of these maximum fines at which we are looking in a Schedule to this Bill. I appreciate the difficulty, but I am quite sure if some of these maximum sentences could be reviewed, and a better relationship could be established between them, there would be much less difference between myself and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, as to how we should proceed at this time.
I am not going to press any of these Amendments. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice for saying that he, too, thinks that the maximum term of extended sentence should be fourteen years rather than ten years. This does, of course. affect only those offences for which the maximum sentence now is seven years, and it is
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somewhat curious in some of these cases why the maximum should be seven years. So what we are trying to do by the words we put in here is, in my opinion, to clear up arrangements which are already somewhat arbitrary, and I do not think we can do it effectively by any of these doublings or other mathematical formulae. I think the whole matter needs to be looked at afresh.
As regards the petty offenders, I am not happy about the situation there. I understand how the Government, under pressure from the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, have sought to exclude the application of the extended sentence to the petty offender.
LORD STONHAM: Did I understand the noble Lord to say the Government were under pressure from my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger? It is a pressure of which I have not been conscious. I should have known about it.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I noticed that reference was made to this Question which was asked, and it appeared to me that the Question which was asked in your Lordships' House had an effect on this Bill. That is what the noble Baroness said, at any rate; and I believed her—I think one should believe what a lady says whenever one can.
LORD STONHAM: It was the information produced by the Question which produced the eventual result. As soon as I saw the result we had it altered.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I give the noble Baroness great credit for having asked the Question, which must have been a productive one. Perhaps we can agree on that.
As I have said, I am not going to press any of these Amendments. I should like to think about this matter further between now and the Report stage. I think your Lordships must take cognisance, for example, of what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice, said about making the maximum term fourteen years. I am inclined to agree with him, on the other matters, that one cannot be sure exactly what is right. Here am I criticising some of the provisions of this Clause 28, while I well know that a number of these provisions derive directly from my announcement to Parliament in 1964, which broke fresh ground

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that the Advisory Council had not gone over. On the understanding that we shall all have a further opportunity to think about this matter before the Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment, and I will not move the two Amendments to Amendment 38.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 37.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 34, leave out from ("more") to end of line 37. —(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I beg to move Amendment No. 38.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 41, leave out from ("occasions") to end of line 45 and insert ("was not less than five years and—

(i) on at least one of those occasions a sentence of preventive detention was passed on him; or

(ii) on at least two of those occasions a sentence of imprisonment (other than a suspended sentence which has not taken effect) or of corrective training was so passed and of those sentences one was a sentence of imprisonment for a term of three years or more in respect of one offence or two were sentences of imprisonment each for a term of two years or more in respect of one offence."). — (Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29 agreed to.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful for the progress we have made, and
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I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

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