Sitting of 20 July 1967

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
As amended, considered; Amendments made to the Bill; Bill to be read the Third time.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL [Lords] (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next at Seven o'clock.
STANDING ORDERS (PRIVATE BUSINESS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the new Standing Order relating to Private Business hereinafter stated in the Schedule be made.

SCHEDULE
95A. Where any society, association or other body, whose main objects include the protection of amenity or the conservation or study of features of natural, historic or archaeological interest, petition against a bill, alleging that the amenity or such features of any locality will be adversely affected to a material extent by the provisions contained in the bill, it shall be competent to the Court of Referees, if they think fit, to admit the Petitioners to be heard on such allegations against the bill or any part thereof.—[Mr. Carol Johnson] —Debate arising;
And, objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.
Ordered,
That the Debate be resumed upon Thursday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Town and Country Planning (White Paper)
    Mr. Tudor Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for consulting local planning authorities in Wales about the proposals contained in the White Paper on Town and Country Planning, Command Paper No. 3333; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes): In accordance with paragraph 50 of the White Paper, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and I are consulting the local authority associations about the proposals in the White Paper. We shall be considering their views on how the aims of the Paper can best be achieved. In addition, as indicated in paragraph 21 of the Paper, I shall, in due course, be consulting local planning authorities in Wales about the introduction of the new development plan system.
    Mr. Watkins: Is my right hon. Friend in a position to say what planning authorities in Wales will be first selected to operate the new system?
    Mr. Hughes: I shall first need to consult the local planning authorities and be satisfied that those selected have the necessary staff and resources.

    Pontypridd and Ystradyfodwg Sewerage Scheme
    Mr. Arthur Pearsonasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will satisfy himself that the Pontypridd and Ystradyfodwg Joint Sewerage Board proposed new trunk sewerage and treatment scheme is designed for a capacity to provide for the industrial effluent from the Treforest Industrial Estate being emptied into the sewer; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ifor Davies): I understand that the Board is preparing a scheme but that it is not yet ready to submit its application to my right hon. Friend for loan sanction. When this application is received, the

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    proposals will be examined to ensure that the scheme is adequate to meet the present and future needs of the drainage area, including the Industrial Estate.
    Mr. Pearson: Is my hon. Friend aware that the present annoyance to industrialists on the Estate is such as to be an industrial hazard to the expansion required in this area?
    Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. We are aware of this situation, but before loan sanction is issued my right hon. Friend will need to be satisfied that there is sufficient spare capacity to deal with future development, including development of the Industrial Estate.

    Cardiff—Merthyr Trunk Road
    Mr. Arthur Pearsonasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give an assurance that tenders for Stage I of the improvement of the Cardiff—Merthyr trunk road, A470 will be invited it October or November next; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: Land acquisition is well advanced and my right hon. Friend expects to publish in August a compulsory purchase order for land not yet acquired. Subject to any objections received, he should be able to invite tenders before the end of the year.

    Bristol Channel (Pollution)
    Mr. Andersonasked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he proposes to halt the continued pollution of the Bristol Channel by untreated sewage and industrial waste from Welsh local authorities and industrial undertakings.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: Action on this is primarily the responsibility of the relevant local sewage disposal authorities. In addition, most of the discharges are into waters coming under the control of the river authorities and must therefore comply with conditions prescribed by them. My right hon. Friend is prepared to con-cider sympathetically applications for loan sanction for any schemes designed to improve present arrangements.
    Mr. Anderson: While thanking my hon. Friend for that helpful reply, may I remind him that Welsh experts have
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    recently claimed that, if this problem is not tackled soon, the position in the Channel could become very dangerous to health? Does he accept this view and does he agree that there could be a case for tackling this problem on an overall Severnside-Channel basis?
    Mr. Davies: I could not entirely accept that view, but I assure my hon. Friend that we appreciate the problem. It is the Government's view that there is no case for spending money on costly treatment works when simple treatment can take place without harming the various interests involved. My right hon. Friend will continue to press individual sewage disposal authorities to take action wherever he believes that better disposal methods are needed.
    Mr. Gower: While thanking the Under-Secretary for the assurance he gave about loan sanction, may I ask him to accept that the scale of work in some cases would impose a great burden on authorities, particularly those on the sea coast, and, to that extent, is there any hope of some assistance being given to these authorities?
    Mr. Davies: I assure the hon. Gentleman that every assistance possible will be given as a result of consideration given to reports submitted to my right hon. Friend.

    Roadworks, Newport (Damaged Property)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give authorisation for repairs and reinstatement to commence at 39 Brynglas Road, Newport, which suffered damage as a result of the M4 roadworks.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: I understand that the owners are prepared to accept compensation and to make their own arrangements for carrying out the work.
    Mr. Hughes: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but, as there is nearly £700 worth of damage to this one property alone, does he not feel that the matter should now receive the urgent treatment that it deserves, having in mind the longstanding suffering in this area due to these road developments?
    Mr. Davies: I assure my hon. Friend that the legal negotiations in these matters are very complex, as he is aware, but negotiations for compensation for damage caused to property by the road works are already well advanced.

    Local Government in Wales (White Paper)
    Mr. S. O. Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many of those engaged in compiling the recent White Paper on Local Government in Wales had practical experience as elected local government representatives.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The interdepartmental Working Party which helped me in my examination of the functions and boundaries of Welsh local authorities had the benefit of the confidential advice of over thirty officers and members of Welsh local authorities whose names were suggested by the local authority associations for their knowledge and experience of local government in Wales.
    Mr. Davies: Is there good reason for the Secretary of State's not giving the names of those persons who have had local government experience as elected representatives of the people? Why conceal them?
    Mr. Hughes: My hon. Friend will be aware that in this case advice was given on a confidential basis, but not only did I have the advice of my Working Party and, through it, the members to whom I have referred, but I was also fortunate enough to have the benefit of the advice and evidence of local authority representatives who have been giving advice and evidence on these matters for over 20 years.
    Mr. Probertasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to implement the proposals in the White Paper on Local Government in Wales.
    Mr. Andersonasked the Secretary of State for Wales what timetable he envisages for the implementation of the proposals in his recent White Paper on Local Government in Wales.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The first stage will be the consultation with local authorities and local authority associations which will, I hope, be completed by
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    the end of the year. Work on the necessary legislation which will inevitably take some time will follow immediately. The Welsh Council, which will not require special legislation, will be set up next year at the end of the three-year term of office of the present Welsh Economic Council.
    Mr. Probed: In view of that and in order to prevent further delay, would my right hon. Friend consider advising local authorities how best they can consider existing anomalies which are unaffected by the present proposals?
    Mr. Hughes: I shall certainly be prepared to receive representations from local authorities on these matters.
    Mr. Anderson: Can my right hon. Friend indicate how flexible he is likely to be in relation to the proposals and whether, for example, he expects radical changes in these proposals as a result of the Royal Commission on English Local Government?
    Mr. Hughes: I am not contemplating any fundamental changes, but I certainly would be prepared to listen to any well-reasoned case.
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he has made to receive the views of Welsh local authorities on the White Paper on Local Government in Wales.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of the changes advocated in Command Paper No. 3340 on Local Government in Wales, he will extend the time available to local authorities and other bodies and persons to make representations.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I have asked all Welsh local authorities to send me their views in writing by the end of September, but in the light of representations made I am giving further consideration to this. I am also arranging to get the views of the local authority associations.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that Answer, because September was too early as local authorities have to have holidays just as much as we do.
    Mr. Gower: In assessing the position, will the Secretary of State take account of the fact that many local authorities

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    have rendered considerable service to parts of Wales and they should have time to present their case when they differ from the proposals?
    Mr. Hughes: I certainly do not wish to press local authorities to do anything unreasonable. By the end of the year we hope to have all the information.
    Mr. William Edwards: When my right hon. Friend receives the views of local authorities, will he make sure that they are the views of elected representatives and not of paid officials protecting their vested interests?
    Mr. Hughes: My hon. Friend must leave that to my judgment. I know local authorities in Wales reasonably well.

    Welsh Council
    Mr. S. O. Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales why he proposes to appoint an unelected and unrepresentative national advisory Council for Wales with wide, and possibly wider powers, thus depriving the peoples of Wales of their democratic rights.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Nothing I have proposed will deprive the people of Wales of their democratic rights, which will continue to be preserved through Parliamentary representation and through their elected local authorities. The new Welsh Council will have advisory, not executive, functions.
    Mr. Davies: Is not this national advisory Council wholly unelected and unrepresentative? Why should this happen in a country with such a splendid record of local government?
    Mr. Hughes: I am certainly prepared to pay a tribute to all those who have worked in local government in Wales, but this has nothing to do with local government as such.
    Mr. Gwynfor Evans: Will the Welsh Committee of the Arts Council, the Welsh Tourist Board and the Welsh Development Corporation remain in existence after the establishment of this new, nominated advisory Council? If so, what will be the functions of this proposed new Council in relation to their affairs?
    Mr. Hughes: These bodies will continue to exercise their executive functions
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    but will have the benefit of the advice of the Welsh Council, which will have representatives from all over Wales.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we on this side are opposed to the nominated Council he is setting up, but I want to make one point in connection with it. To make things clear, would not the Secretary of State consider changing the name and not continue to use the word "Council"? There have been so many different sorts of Welsh Councils in the last 15 years that people simply cannot understand them.
    Mr. Hughes: It is not the name that counts but the work such bodies do. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should say that his party is opposed to the nominated Council when his party supported one for over 13 years.
    Mr. Hooson: In view of the generally hostile reception of this proposal, and as the Secretary of State for Scotland does not appear to need an advisory Council, what justification is there for the Secretary of State to set up yet another nominated Council in Wales?
    Mr. Hughes: The hon. and learned Gentleman ought to read the White Paper.
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will set up a body at an early date to consider the desirability of establishing an elected Council for Wales with the aim of further strengthening of all-Wales machinery referred to in paragraph 57 of the White Paper on Local Government in Wales.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: No, Sir. This matter will be reviewed at the appropriate time in the light of the Reports of the Royal Commissions on Local Government in England and Scotland.
    Mr. Morgan: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that unless a study is made of the question of devolution of central Government the hopes expressed in paragraph 57 of the White Paper will remain rather vague and uncertain aspirations?
    Mr. Hughes: The task I am anxious to get on with, the important and urgent task, is the reorganisation of local government in Wales, although, as I have

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    already said, the Welsh Council I propose will have a much wider and more specific task than the former Council for Wales.
    Mr. Gwynfor Evans: In view of the most humiliating rejection of an elected Council for Wales for reasons unconnected with the welfare of Wales, would not the Secretary of State agree that the whole proposal should be completely dropped and that we should now concentrate on getting at the earliest moment a legislature for Wales as a whole?
    Mr. Hughes: The hon. Member is irrelevant, as usual.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: In an earlier reply, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the nominated Council Does he now say that Wales may have a completely new local government set-up when the Royal Commission on Local Government in England and Scotland reports?
    Mr. Hughes: I have already said that further consideration will be given to this matter, but I cannot prejudge the issue at this stage.
    Mr. E. Rowlands: Can my hon. Friend say whether the new national Council will hold its meeting in public?
    Mr. Hughes: That will be a matter for the Council to decide.

    Water Supplies
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of current shortages of water in certain parts of Wales, he will give an assurance that he will refuse consent to the acquisition of water from Wales by any outside undertaking until the water needs of every locality in Wales are satisfied.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I can assure my hon. Friend that in considering any proposal put to me I shall see that Welsh interests are fully protected. But, as the Welsh Advisory Water Committee demonstrated in its report of 1961, there is available in Wales ample water to meet all foreseeable internal requirements, and to provide a considerable surplus for other needs. Moreover, the construction of regulating reservoirs will improve the availability of supplies locally as well as further downstream.
    Mr. Morgan: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that in many areas of Wales which have suffered water shortages this summer people rightly feel that it would be invidious if further concessions of Welsh water were made to outside undertakings, which already take three-quarters of the man-made resources in Wales, unless and until there is established a prior right of Welsh people to Welsh water?
    Mr. Hughes: I do not think that the supply of water to areas outside Wales has anything to do with the supply of water within Wales. I would remind my hon. Friend that since the war £49 million has been spent by Welsh undertakings on capital works. Demand is continually rising, and there are areas where new works will be necessary. The provision of new water supplies for Wales will be given priority but, the needs of Wales being satisfied, I see no reason why England should not receive water supplies as well.

    Vaynol Estate
    Mr. William Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps were taken to acquire the Vaynol Estate for Wales; and whether, in view of recent development, assurances have been sought about the future use of those parts of the estate including Snowdon, hitherto used by the general public.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Following my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement to the House on 3rd May, 1967, the agents for the Vaynol Estate were approached with a view to possible Government purchase of parts of the estate lying within the National Park. Now that the owner has decided to dispose of the whole of the estate privately, the Government will pursue discussions with the new owners. Future changes in the use of the land would, in any case, of course, be subject to planning control.—[Vol. 746, c. 91–2.]
    Mr. Edwards: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the record of the new owners in their dealing with other estates they have acquired in other parts of the country, and, in particular, the Lake District, is not very good? When he obtains these assurances, will he ensure that they are legal assurances that may be effective both in relation to Snowdon

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    and to the rights of the tenants on the estate?
    Mr. Hughes: I cannot comment on the standing of the new buyers, or make any helpful observations, until discussions with them have taken place.

    Llyn Brianne Water Scheme
    Mr. Tudor Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of the local concern over the action of the West Glamorgan Water Board in inviting tenders for work on their Llyn Brianne water scheme in advance of the announcement of the result of the public inquiry, if he will seek an undertaking from the Board that no authority will be given to anyone to enter land concerned with the scheme; if he will seek to cancel authorisation already given; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: My right hon. Friend has yet to arrive at his decision on this proposal, and no authorisations have been given by him. The Water Board invited tenders for roadworks so that in the event of the scheme being approved work could be started with the minimum of delay. This is not in accordance with normal procedures, and the Board has now, at my right hon. Friend's request, asked the tenderers to defer further inquiries.
    Mr. Watkins: Can my hon. Friend give me an undertaking that he has also asked the Board to cancel the authorisation certificates it has already given for people to enter on land without any permission? I am glad that my constituent ejected these people.
    Mr. Davies: I can give that assurance. My hon. Friend will recall that the Welsh Office acted very promptly in this matter. There is no right to enter on private land in connection with the project unless the power has been confirmed by my right hon. Friend under a water order.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I congratulate the Welsh Office on the action they took in this matter, but does not the hon. Member agree that this is an iniquitous example of jumping the gun and that in this case the rights of individuals have not been properly looked after?
    Mr. Davies: I should explain that no work was started, nor was it the intention
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    of the Board to commence any work before my right hon. Friend had announced his decision. Consideration of submitted tenders was to be deferred until a decision had been given.

    Cwmbran
    Mr. Abseasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many houses built for private sale by the Cwmbran Development Corporation are now standing empty at Cwmbran New Town; what contracts are at present in existence for further houses for sale: whether he is aware of concern that the financial burden of servicing the capital deployed in the building of these empty houses falls upon the rents of Cwmbran New Town tenants; and what action is being taken to dispose of these houses and decelerate further building of houses for sale.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: Twenty-seven houses built by the corporation for private sale are vacant at present, but four have been reserved and negotiations are in progress for the sale of another four. The corporation has contracted for another eight houses specifically for sale. No part of the cost of houses built for sale falls upon rents of new town tenants. The corporation has advertised these houses and has engaged the services of private estate agents to help in selling them and no further tenders for houses for sale will be approved until existing vacant houses are sold.
    Mr. Abse: My hon. Friend does not appear to have answered that part of my Question which asks what contracts are at present in existence for further houses for sale
    Mr. Davies: I did answer the Question about houses for sale, which was the point of the Question, and I said that there were contracts for another eight. I can also inform my hon. Friend about discussions we have had about certain high-priced houses. The corporation has been asked to defer putting these dwellings into contract until the housing situation at Cwmbran has been cleared up.
    Mr. Abseasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has now reviewed the future population growth target of Cwmbran New Town; and with what result.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is not satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to warrant fixing a higher population target for the new town at present, but he has arranged for a further study by the corporation and the local planning authority of the longer term possibilities.
    Mr. Abse: Will my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary consider whether in view of the existing situation and what appear to be the present trends there is necessity to have greater phasing towards any target growth which perhaps up to the present may have been considered necessary?
    Mr. Davies: I can assure my hon. Friend that the question of future population growth has been reviewed and the size of Cwmbran New Town will depend on the study which has now been arranged.
    Mr. Anderson: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that as the eventual target of the new town is pushed further ahead the hopes of local people for the democratisation of the new town recede, and local people are very much anticipating the results of the legislation promised by my right hon. Friend the Minister?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Members supplementary question does not refer to Cwmbran.
    Mr. Davies: My visits to the town do not suggest any breakdown of democratic rights. I get the appreciation that they are very happy about democracy.

    Abercynon and Aberdare (By-passes)
    Mr. Probertasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects plans for the proposed road by-passes at Abercynon and Aberdare; and when the works will commence.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: This is a matter initially for the local highway authorities. My right hon. Friend will be ready to consider their schemes as soon as they are able to put firm proposals to him.
    Mr. Probert: Although I appreciate that, will my right hon. Friend use his persuasive powers with the local authorities concerned to speed up these plans as the situation in both cases is now well-nigh intolerable?
    Mr. Davies: Yes, Sir. This is essentially a matter for the local authorities, but my right hon. Friend has already announced his willingness to consider firm plans as soon as they are ready and the Welsh Office is ready to give all the help and advice it can.

    Welsh Economic Council Members (Official Secrets Acts)
    Mr. Alan Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Wales to what extent members of the Welsh Economic Council are required to adhere to the provisions of the Official Secrets Acts; and if he is satisfied that the Members of the Council have observed these limitations.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: There is an obligation in that on joining Economic Planning Councils, including the Welsh Economic Council, members sign a declaration acknowledging that their attention has been drawn to the relevant provisions of the Official Secrets Acts. This obligation remains on ceasing to be a member of the Council.
    There was recently an unauthorised disclosure by a former member of the Welsh Economic Council. Although this was regrettable, my right hon. and learned Friend, the Attorney-General, does not consider it was of a nature to call for legal proceedings.
    Mr. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most hon. Members on this side of the House will be glad that he is not considering action because the writer's manifest lack of responsibility will be more embarrassing to him in the long run than to the Government, but does he not realise that it is invidious that appointed unrepresentative members of committees can apparently make uninformed statements about documents which hon. Members of this House have not seen?
    Mr. Hughes: I note what my hon. Friend has said, but members of the Welsh Economic Council are in exactly the same position as members of the English and Scottish Economic Councils.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: That surely is no argument? Is there not a lot of unnecessary secrecy? Could we not sweep it away and get back to the position

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    when an economic Council, or whatever Council is concerned, says what it does in public?
    Mr. Hughes: I must ask the hon. Member to read the White Paper, for that is exactly what it proposed.

    Road Improvements
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the United Kingdom current commitments of £340 million on major road improvements is to be spent on roads in Wales.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: The £340 million relates only to England. The Welsh roads programme is separate.
    Mr. Gower: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate how much is to be spent and give a comparative figure to show whether there is to be any increase in "The Plan Ahead" which is deemed by many people to be disappointing in its reference to major roadworks?
    Mr. Davies: Yes. The present Welsh commitments for motorways, trunk and principal roads amount to £14·3 million. This figure will increase, as suggested, as a result of the new scheme the Government have authorised.

    Home Loans
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many Welsh local authorities have reported that their quota for home loans in the current year is already exhausted; and if the Government will consider making additional grants available.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: No Welsh local authority has yet reported that its quota for the current year has been exhausted. It is too early to say whether it may later be possible to make additional funds available to authorities with special needs from any balances not taken up by other authorities.

    Newport Docks (Access Road)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in negotiating for the provision of a dock access road at Newport to link up with the M4 near Forge Lane.
    Mr. Ifor Davies: This would not be a trunk road, but Welsh Office officials are in consultations with the Newport Council and the Docks Board.
    Mr. Hughes: Was this and related matters affecting the future development of Newport discussed with the Minister of State, Welsh Office, when she visited Newport on Monday? Why was the hon. Member for Newport not invited to the meeting or at least notified of the hon. Lady's visit to the constituency of Newport relative to the normal courtesies of the House?
    Mr. Davies: That is not the Question which my hon. Friend has put on the Order Paper; the improved road links with the motorway. I will, however, look into the matter.

  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    University Fees (Overseas Students)
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science at how many universities in England and Wales fees for overseas students in the academic year 1967–68 are not to be raised in whole or in part in response to the Government's request.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Anthony Crosland): I am aware of three universities in England and Wales which have decided for the time being not to increase the fees payable by any full-time overseas students. In addition, one university has decided not to raise the fees for existing overseas students who are privately financed.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Do not these figures, which, as the right hon. Gentleman will doubtless agree, are of a preliminary nature, reveal that the economies he was so confident about will be quite substantially less than he expected and have been achieved only at the expense of very great hostility in the universities?
    Mr. Crosland: No, Sir. The decisions taken by these universities will in no way affect the economies which I had sought to achieve, because the effect of the decisions taken by these four universities will be that they find certain sums of money, which indeed is their absolute

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    right to do, out of their own budgets; so that my estimated economy figures will be unaltered by these figures.

    St. Mary's Secondary School, Croydon
    Mr. Winnickasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if the proposed extension to St. Mary's Roman Catholic Secondary School, Croydon, will be included in the 1968–69 building programme.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Shirley Williams): My right hon. Friend is not yet able to announce a decision on the secondary school proposals submitted by the Croydon Local Education Authority for the 1968–69 Major Building Programme.
    Mr. Winnick: Is my hon. Friend aware that this school has appeared regularly in the Croydon school building programme since 1963 and that this matter is now one of extreme urgency? Is she also aware that I led a deputation to our late colleague, Ted Redhead, over this matter and that a great number of Catholic parents in Croydon are very worried about the delay in getting this plan approved?
    Mrs. Williams: We are very much aware of the point made by my hon. Friend, but it was only on 4th July that we received revised proposals for the way in which school building programmes would fit into secondary reorganisation, and we are now considering this urgently.

    Teachers (Probation Period)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether teaching in a direct grant school counts towards the necessary period of one year's probation.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: Yes, other than teaching in direct grant grammar schools, where probation is not a condition of employment.
    Mr. Longden: I thank the Minister of State for that reply. What justification is there for that?
    Mrs. Williams: This does not mean that it is not possible to take teaching
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    in direct grant grammar schools into account. It simply means that, because probation is not itself a condition of employment in direct grant grammar schools, we cannot equally require that it should be a condition by which probation is satisfied.

    University of the Air
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is yet in a position to make a statement on the commencement of the operation of the University of the Air.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Miss Jennie Lee): The essential preparatory work is going ahead most satisfactorily. I hope to make a more precise statement soon.
    Mr. Hamilton: How soon is "soon"? Is the project being held up by finance or by disagreement on principles as to the operation of the scheme?
    Miss Lee: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the interest and support with which he has always favoured me. The scheme is not being held up either on points of principle or on finance.
    Sir E. Boyle: Does the hon. Lady expect to make a statement before the House rises for the Summer Recess? Is she not aware that this is becoming something of a non-saga of rather considerable length? The House hopes to hear something soon.
    Miss Lee: I am only too anxious to make a complete statement to the House.

    Teachers' Pay
    Mr. Biffenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the present dispute over teachers' pay.
    Mr. Channonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he now has for increasing teachers' pay.
    Mr. Crosland: The hearing before the arbitral body took place on Monday, and I await its report.
    Mr. Biffen: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the settlement of this dispute is of the utmost significance to all those who are engaged in industrial

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    arbitration in the private sector during the corning year? Have the Honeyman arbitrators been asked to take account of the Government's considerations concerning lower payment or productivity in the light of their prices and incomes policy? If not, will he take those considerations into account when considering the Honeyman proposals and inform the House accordingly?
    Mr. Crosland: I agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, namely, that it is extremely important, for all manner of reasons, to achieve a settlement of this dispute. That is why this dispute is now going through the procedure carefully laid down by the House of Commons in the Remuneration of Teachers Act, 1965. The second part of the supplementary question should properly be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
    Mr. Channon: When does the Secretary of State hope to be able to make an announcement as to his conclusions on this matter?
    Mr. Crosland: It is not entirely up to me. It depends very much on what comes out of the arbitration procedure. As I understand their timetable, they will probably make their report within a very small number of days from now. I would hope that we could achieve some clarity about the whole position before the end of July.
    Sir E. Boyle: Does the Secretary of State hope that the position will be clarified before the House rises for the Summer Recess?
    Mr. Crosland: I very much hope so. There are two bodies here, over neither of which—quite rightly—have I any control. One is the arbitral body. The other is the Burnham Committee, which must meet to discuss the matter after the arbitral body has reported. So the timetable, as the right hon. Gentleman knows well, is not under my control. Like everybody else involved, I should like the earliest possible settlement to a very long drawn out dispute.

    Regional Areas (Cultural and Artistic Development)
    Dr. John Dunwoodyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further steps he is taking
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    to develop cultural and artistic opportunities for those living in the regions.
    Miss Jennie Lee: This development is going on continuously. One of the main purposes of the increase of £1·5 million in the grant made to the Arts Council this year is the encouragement of the arts in the regions. A very welcome development in the past year has been the setting up of three new regional arts associations, in the North-West, North Wales and Greater London. In the South West, a conference held in Exeter on 23rd June, recommended the appointment of a committee to consider the establishment of a more broadly based regional body to take the place of the existing South Western Arts Association.
    Dr. Dunwoody: I welcome that Answer. Those in the South-West appreciate the fact that work is being done, perhaps for the first time, in this field. However, would not my right hon. Friend agree that cultural and artistic development is one of the most important parts of regional development?
    Miss Lee: I agree. That is why I place so much emphasis on encouraging regional arts associations. Where local people are willing to have a robust association, every possible support will be given from the centre.
    Mr. Emery: Would the right hon. Lady break down the figure for the increase to show the amount which is being spent in the South-West on extra activities?
    Miss Lee: I would need notice before stating the amount for the South-West. The general flow of expenditure is that over the country as a whole it has been over 18 per cent. for Scotland and for Wales it has been 40 per cent. in each case, and the South-West as a region has certainly been advantaged more than London.

    Initial Teaching Alphabet
    Mr. Channonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he now has for encouraging the use of the initial teaching alphabet.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: The question of further developments in this field will be considered by the Schools Council

    2463
    when it has received and studied the report of the independent evaluation of the initial teaching alphabet which it has commissioned and which is expected in the autumn.
    Mr. Channon: Does the Minister of State agree that in many areas this has proved to be an outstanding success? Will she do her best, on behalf of the Government, to ensure that it is not starved for lack of finance?
    Mrs. Williams: The independent evaluation has been welcomed. Applications for research grant to continue studies in this field have been made to the Social Science Research Council, and we have reason to believe that an announcement will be made very soon.

    Decimal System
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps have been taken by his Department to advise local education authorities on the methods of teaching the new decimal system.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: My right hon. Friend has asked the Schools Council to consider the curricular implications of the new system for the schools. The implications for further education establishments are being considered separately.
    Mrs. Short: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is she aware that there will be considerable cost in the reprinting of textbooks? Is this to be borne by the Department?
    Mrs. Williams: The Department is not itself responsible for new textbooks, but we are aware that there will need to be many changes, and inspectors are at present in contact with the publishers of textbooks about the changes which will be required. We hope that full guidance on the whole subiect can be made available early in 1968.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Experiments on Animals (Inspectors)
    Mr. Danceasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied that there is a sufficient number of inspectors to ensure adequate
    2464
    supervision of experiments on animals; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): Two additional inspectors were appointed earlier this year. My right hon. Friend is considering whether more are needed.
    Mr. Dance: Would the Minister of State consider the idea of allowing R.S.P.C.A. medical surgeons to have occasional access for inspection?
    Miss Bacon: This is an idea I have not previously considered, but I will certainly consider it now.

    Fire Brigades (Pay)
    Mr. Danceasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on fire officers' pay following negotiations within the National Joint Council for Local Authorities Fire Brigades.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Ennals): It is for the National Joint Council for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades to seek to reach agreement on officers' pay on the basis of the recommendations of the National Board for Prices and Incomes. My right hon. Friend is not represented on the Council, but I understand that the Officers' Committee is to meet on 25th July.
    Mr. Dance: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great dissatisfaction in this splendid public service? They feel that they are being treated very badly. They should have an award very quickly.
    Mr. Ennals: There have been representations from the Association on this question. It would be inappropriate for me to make comments, in view of the negotiations which are taking place.

    Drug Addicts (Treatment)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that there will be sufficient numbers of in-patient beds and outpatient round-the-clock clinics in all regions of the country to deal with drug addicts when prescribing hard drugs may no longer be carried out by general practioners; and if he will make a statement.
    Miss Bacon: The regulations on prescribing will not be brought into operation until my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is satisfied that adequate hospital facilities are available for the treatment of heroin addicts.

    Dangerous Drugs Act, 1964
    Mr. Deedesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied with the operation of the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1964; and if he will make a statement.
    Miss Bacon: The Dangerous Drugs Bill has been amended in another place to provide for the more effective safekeeping of "hard" and "soft" drugs, and to strengthen police powers. I am awaiting the views of the Advisory Committee on Drug Dependence on the need for any other changes in the law on "soft" drugs.
    Mr. Deedes: Is the right hon. Lady aware that one difficulty which seems to be arising over this Act is its administration in the courts? Would she ask her right hon. Friend to see whether it is possible to give a little more guidance to courts on the administration of the Act?
    Miss Bacon: That is a very difficult question to answer because, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is very difficult for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to direct the courts. If there is any particular point, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will let me know. He himself is a member of the advisory committee which is considering this question.

    Road Safety (Terrell Plan)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what study he has made, in conjunction with the Metropolitan Police, of the Terrell Plan for Road Safety, of which he has a copy, and with what result.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Dick Taverne): A study of the plan carried out by the Commissioner of Police suggests that the proposals would give rise to substantial difficulties for the enforcement authorities.
    Mr. Cooke: Does not the Under-Secretary agree that this plan is worth study-
    2466
    ing, and would not the police agree that it would lead to a reduction in casualties in the London area if the plan were put into effect?
    Mr. Taverne: Of course, the main decision on the plan must come from the Ministry of Transport. The Home Office is concerned only with the enforcement side of it. It is right to say that the police see difficulties about enforcement, about the anomalies between cases where there is accident and where there is not, between duplication of offences and also between the automatic disqualification cases and the difficulties that in some cases it might be hard to convict.

    Overseas Travellers (Drugs)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what steps are being taken to warn foreign tourists and British travellers arriving from Italy and other foreign parts that they are liable to imprisonment if they retain in their possession benzedrine-type or anti-air-sickness tablets purchased legally abroad.
    Miss Bacon: Customs officers ask British residents returning to this country to declare all articles in their possession obtained abroad, and give appropriate advice where goods so declared are prohibited or restricted. Notices in various languages, including Italian, are displayed to warn all travellers that the importation of certain articles is prohibited or restricted, and these notices expressly refer to dangerous drugs. My right hon. Friend is considering, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the notices could with advantage be amplified.
    Mr. Driberg: Does my right hon. Friend consider that "dangerous drugs" would ordinarily be taken by an average traveller to cover the sort of harmless pills which probably dozens of hon. Members of this House carry?
    Miss Bacon: I would not like to comment on that because it might lead me into talking about a specific case which is before the courts. But obviously "dangerous drugs" means what it says. According to our law the tablets which my hon. Friend has described are dangerous drugs.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Is the right hon. Lady undertaking any study into the effect on this position of Britain's adherence to the European Economic Community, and if so what is the result?
    Miss Bacon: I think that questaion goes further than the Question which I have been asked to answer.

    Accused Persons
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he will give instructions to the prison authorities that handcuffs are not to be used for persons on their way to stand trial unless there is a reasonable apprehension that they may attempt to escape.
    Miss Bacon: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer my right hon. Friend gave on 11th July to a Question by the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon).—[Vol. 750, c. 62–3.]
    Mr. Driberg: As I have not got that Answer before me, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether she agrees that if the police themselves say that there has been every co-operation from an accused person he should not be handcuffed, as has been known to happen in certain cases?
    Miss Bacon: It is the duty of the governor himself to take the decision according to the circumstances. The governor is given general guidance in prison standing orders, a copy of which is in the Library of the House. It is his responsibility when a prisoner is being moved to decide whether or not handcuffs should be used.
    Mr. Hogg: Having regard to the Home Secretary's Answer to me about a particular case, is it not clear that the instructions need some kind of revision? Do not they include a provision to the effect that if one prisoner is handcuffed all the others in the same batch must be handcuffed too? Is not this much too severe and liable to lead to unnecessary humiliation?
    Miss Bacon: These regulations were revised only in April of this year. We will certainly look at them again to see whether they need further revision.

  PUBLIC INQUIRIES (LAND AND BUILDINGS)
  Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the arrangements for co-ordinating the divergent interests of Government Departments in land and buildings which are the subject of a public inquiry into future use; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Yes, Sir.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Would the Prime Minister accept that public confidence in the impartiality of the outcome of the sort of inquiry which is referred to in this Question is very badly undermined if a Minister who is directly interested in the outcome also takes part in the final decision? Would the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, give instructions that the Home Secretary shall not in this instance take part in the decision on the future use of the Pinewood Hospital buildings?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman was good enough to give me details of the case that he particularly had in mind in this Question. The procedure that has been followed is one that has operated for a very long time under successive Governments. I can understand the hon. Gentleman's concern in this case, but it is the practice that where premises become redundant in the hands of a Government Department it is considered as between Government Departments, and the possibility of providing them to local authorities arises only if the Government Departments do not have a priority use.

  SUEZ CANAL
  Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister what consultations he proposes to have with leaders of other countries about the Suez Canal; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the information my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I have already given to the House on this subject.
  Mr. Marten: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the Foreign Secretary

  2469
  saying that we must wait until the political conditions are created before the Canal can be cleared? How long are we prepared to wait? Would the Prime Minister not consider trying at least to get the southern end below the Bitter Lakes clear so that the trapped ships can get out?
  The Prime Minister: We all want it to be cleared as quickly as possible, but those on the spot are taking no action to clear it until there is certain political action in the shape, at any rate, of a partial withdrawal. While we are using all our influence at the United Nations and elsewhere with the countries concerned to get this, there is nothing else that can be done in these circumstances. Certainly physical action by Britain would be disastrous, as it was the last time.
  Mr. Ogden: Does my right hon. Friend, who is a Member for a Merseyside constituency, confirm that the shipping authorities of this country have made long-term plans to deal with the situation, and that if the Suez Canal were opened now it would not mean great changes in our shipping arrangements?
  The Prime Minister: Certainly not in the immediate future. The British shipping industry, other Western shipping industries and the oil industry have shown great flexibility and adaptibility in dealing with the situation. Nevertheless, all of us want to see the Canal opened as quickly as possible.
  Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Is it not true that Britain, as a maritime nation, has the greatest interest in the flow of shipping through this international waterway? As the Prime Minister was so anxious to take a lead with the maritime nations in opening the Straits of Tiran, why is he not more robust in getting the Suez Canal open, which otherwise may remain closed for five years?
  The Prime Minister: It is a fact that we have a very leading part in the use of the Canal. I think the actual figures show that Liberian tonnage is ahead of British tonnage, but a fair amount of that is probably on charter for the supply of oil and other things to Britain. I have said what the problem is. It is all very well talking about being robust. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends
  2470
  were robust 10 years ago. It did not get the Canal open.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that nobody in this House or outside it can expect that physical action will be taken by the Government? Nobody is asking for that, for a gunboat or anything else. But is my right hon. Friend aware that his right hon. Friend the other day said that he was trying? Could we have some indication whether any protest has been made by our representative at the United Nations about this?
  The Prime Minister: We have had discussions with everyone concerned with this matter at the United Nations, including, of course, the Egyptians, who are very much involved, and the Israelis and other countries, too. It would not be helpful towards getting the objective that we all have in mind by publishing protests or making ringing declarations about this. The important thing is to try to get the situation settled so that the Canal can be opened.

  MINISTER OF TECHNOLOGY (SPEECH)
  Mr. Hastingsasked the Prime Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Minister of Technology on the aviation industry at a dinner of the Society of British Aerospace Companies in London on 28th June represents Government policy.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Hastings: Does not the Prime Minister realise that, whatever the Minister of Technology may have intended, passages in his speech were widely interpreted as yet another sign of the Government's hostility to the aircraft industry, and will he agree that, at a time when there is all too little mutual trust between the industry and the Government, it is up to Ministers to try to improve the situation and not to exacerbate it?
  The Prime Minister: Nothing my right hon. Friend said was capable of having that interpretation put on it. He was referring to the activities of successive Ministers of Aviation over a period of years, not to activities of the aircraft

  2471
  industry. It will be generally agreed now that the aircraft industry is in a much healthier state, reducing its over-dependence on prestige projects which we cancelled two years ago, and the effect both on employment in the industry and on exports is exactly the opposite of what hon. Members opposite said it would be.
  Mr. Sheldon: Will my right hon. Friend agree that the aircraft industry has been pampered for rather too long, that this industry like all others must learn to pay its way, and the more firmly that message is brought home to it the better able it will be to meet the formidable competition abroad which is now building up?
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be as glad as other hon. Members to recognise that the aircraft industry is making great steps towards that. For example, last year it had record exports. This is the sort of thing we want to see. We want to see less dependence on military contracts which, as we know not only from the recent one but from cases over the years, are subject to cancellation creating difficulty in the industry.
  Mr. R. Carr: Does not the Prime Minister realise that the record exports made by the aircraft industry last year were entirely on projects started by the Conservative Government? How can it be appropriate for a Minister of the Crown to suggest to a great industry with that tremendous export record that the money for investment which led to those exports was obtained in ways which made the great train robbers look like schoolboys pinching pennies from a tin?
  The Prime Minister: In view of the period of gestation of aircraft, under the previous Government and the present one, it would be surprising if exports last year were not mainly related to aircraft designed many years ago. What we have to consider is whether it is worthwhile to pump in so many thousands of millions of £s of Government money for a particular export record, however gratifying. We believe that the way in which the aircraft industry is now deployed will be better for exports and for employment.
  As regards the second point made by the right hon. Gentleman, my right hon. Friend, when he used the phrase "robber barons" and made a comparison with
  2472
  hospital developments, was referring to the predatory characteristics of Conservative Ministers of Aviation. The right hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that the hospital building programme has increased by 70 per cent. since he was in office.

  EAST OF SUEZ
  Mr. Dickensasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a statement on Great Britain's future defence policy east of Suez.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the White Paper published on 18th July.
  Mr. Dickens: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the warm welcome given on these benches and beyond to the Government's decision in principle to leave Singapore and Malaysia by the mid-1970s, but will he take it that some of us wish to see this military withdrawal from South-East Asia made at an earlier date and the replacement of military spending by a much enlarged civil aid programme?
  The Prime Minister: I am glad to hear my hon. Friend's opening remarks. In view of the excitement which he and some of my hon. Friends got into last March, which led me to say a few well-chosen words on defence to them at the time, I am sorry that they did not listen then to what I said about this statement being on the way. If they had been a little more patient, they could have been as pleased then as they are now.
  Mr. Mayhew: We listened also to my right hon. Friend's speech on 15th June last year outlining a major world role for Britain behind the United Nations. Why is there no reference to the United Nations in this Defence White Paper? Finally, is my right hon. Friend aware that, in defending this policy against the Opposition, he will have very warm and wide support on these benches?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Supplementary questions ought to be brief, even to the Prime Minister.
  The Prime Minister: I am glad to hear that as well. This hon. Friend also might have taken the same point in March if he had been listening. As regards the

  2473
  speech I made on 15th June last year, he will find that the White Paper is fully in accordance with it, because what I stressed then was our ability to get to places where we were needed rather than reliance on vast, costly and sometimes indefensible bases in those areas. That is the spirit of this White Paper.
  Mr. Goodhew: In the light of the Government's dreadful experience in Aden, is it not thoroughly irresponsible of the Prime Minister to back up a policy which now announces, virtually, the date on which we are to leave Singapore?
  The Prime Minister: We were right to announce the date on which we are leaving Aden, and the one lesson which more than half of the House at least has learned—the one which we enunciated in Opposition—is that one cannot stay in a base where one is not wanted or tolerated by the local population. It is a recipe for violence. It is a recipe for great waste of national resources.
  Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister telling the House that the Prime Ministers of Singapore and Malaysia have asked the British Government to get out? There can be no greater misrepresentation than that.
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is getting very excited about this. His hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) referred to the difficulties in Aden, and I replied in terms of Aden. The position of the Prime Ministers of Malaysia and Singapore is well known. Of course, they would like us to stay with a large base there. What we are promising them is the help which they need, which they cannot supply for themselves but which we can give them. It is really not a sensible policy for our resources—the right hon. Gentleman will realise this—for us to provide ground troops in areas where the Malaysians, for example, can provide their own and then have to go to all the enormous cost of providing air cover to protect the base and the rest. That is a nonsensical defence policy.
  Mr. Heath: The Prime Minister confirms that the withdrawal from Singapore and Malaysia which he has announced for the middle 1970s is not at the wish of the Governments. The position is not untenable for us. It is entirely the
  2474
  present British Government's decision, and, as a result, are not the Government now losing all their influence for the future in the Far East?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. It is the decision of the British Government, and it is the right decision, too. It is the British Government's duty to weigh the pressures and advice of our friends, whether in the Commonwealth or our allies. It does not mean that, at great cost to this country, which we cannot afford and which does not make up a viable defence policy, we should stay there even if our friends want us.

  RHODESIA
  Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that it is Her Majesty's Government's policy to implement all resolutions on Rhodesia which have been passed by the Security Council or the General Assembly of the United Nations.
  The Prime Minister: We accept our obligations under Article 25 of the United Nations Charter to carry out decisions of the Security Council. We also give great weight to recommendations of the Security Council or of the General Assembly, but our action is determined by the merits of each case.
  Sir J. Langford-Holt: Would I be right, therefore, in assuming that the answer to the question is "No", and will the Prime Minister bear in mind that this contradicts what he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have been saying for years, implying that they would at all times accept resolutions of the United Nations? The understanding that he will not do this will give great satisfaction to many people.
  The Prime Minister: We have never said that we would accept every recommendation, for example, of the General Assembly in relation to Rhodesia. There are some resolutions passed by the General Assembly, for instance, that calling for immediate majority rule in Rhodesia, which we have always rejected. There has never been any question that we would have to act in that way. Our policy on the question of majority rule is well known.
  Mr. Whitaker: But will my right hon. Friend confirm that, rather than abrogate the principle of Nibmar, he will allow the United Nations to take any step to implement it?
  The Prime Minister: The rôle of the United Nations in the matter of Rhodesia which we have often debated in the House, is to faciltate and to make more universal the sanctions on which this House has decided. Responsibility for Rhodesia is that of the British Government and will remain so, but we went to the United Nations to ensure that the sanctions which we are applying, by decision of the House, should be applied by other countries. That, I believe, is the role of the United Nations, not the operation of principles like Nibmar.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 24TH JULY—In the morning—
Remaining stages of the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Bill [Lords].
Second Reading of the Police (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Lords], which is a consolidation Measure.
Lords Amendments to the Wireless Telegraphy Bill, the National Insurance (No. 2) Bill and the Aden, Perim and Kuria Muria Islands Bill.
In the afternoon—
Supply [29th Allotted Day]:
Debate on Economic Affairs, on an Opposition Motion.
At 10 p.m. the Question will be put from the Chair on all outstanding Votes.
Lords Amendments to the Water (Scotland) Bill.
Motions on the Furniture Industry Development Council (Amendment No. 3) Order, on the Redundancy Fund Order and on the Sunday Cinematograph Order.
TUESDAY, 25TH JULY—Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill.
2476
WEDNESDAY, 26TH JULY—In the morning—
Motions on the White Fish and Herring Subsidies Orders and on the Fishing Vessels Scheme.
In the afternoon—
Remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill which, under Standing Order No. 89, will be formal.
Lords Amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill.
Remaining stages of the Police (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Lords], which is a consolidation Measure.
Motions on the Electricity Boards (Standard Amount) (Scotland) Order, on the Valuation (Scottish Gas Board) (Scotland) Order, on the British Railways Board (Amendment of Certified Amount) (Scotland) Order.
At seven o'clock, as the House is aware, the Chairman of Ways and Means has set down Opposed Private Business for Consideration.
THURSDAY, 27TH JULY—There will be a debate on a Motion to approve the White Paper on Defence, Command No. 3357.
FRIDAY, 28TH JULY—If it has been so resolved, the House will rise for the Summer Adjournment.
Mr. Heath: Can the Leader of the House tell us when the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs will make a statement about Rhodesia, and whether the Government intend to publish Lord Alport's report as a dispatch?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also help us by telling us what other statements he expects the Government to make next week?
Mr. Crossman: I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman the exact time of the Prime Minister's statement, or what will follow from it. But we shall tell the right hon. Gentleman immediately we can.
I expect a statement on Monday on the family endowment scheme and a statement from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science about public accounts and the U.G.C., but I am not sure whether that will be on Monday.
Mr. Heath: Will there be a statement on Rhodesia before we rise?
Mr. Crossman: Without any question.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: May I remind the House that we have important and long business ahead? I hope that we shall ration ourselves on Business questions.
Mr. Thorpe: Does the answer which the Leader of the House has just given indicate that he does not foresee the likelihood of a debate on Rhodesia before the House rises?
Mr. Crossman: I should not like to prejudge what Lord Alport's report says. We must wait for it before we make up our minds.
Mr. J. Idwal Jones: Has my right hon. Friend considered allocating a day for a debate on Welsh affairs? If so, when will it take place?
Mr. Crossman: I hope to make a reference to that in my next Business Statement before the House adjourns.
Mr. Lubbock: Is the Leader of the House aware that immediately on his announcement that the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be taken on Tuesday I left the Chamber to submit a subject to Mr. Speaker and that 20 hon. Members were in advance of me, although I was back in the Chamber before the end of his Business Statement at 3.33 p.m.? Will he in future make arrangements to see that better co-ordination is made between the various subjects submitted for debate on the Bill?
Mr. Crossman: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is not really a matter for me.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can my right hon. Friend say when there will be a statement about legislation promising votes at 18? If he is short of Parliamentary draftsmen, is he aware that I can lend him my old Bill, which was talked out six years ago?
Mr. Crossman: I am sure that my hon. Friend will lend me anything, but I do not think that we are near legislation. We are awaiting the report of Mr. Speaker's Conference on the subject.
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Since the country's economic position seems to be in great peril at the moment, would the Leader of the House consider giving an extra hour if possible on Monday for the crucial debate on economic affairs?
Mr. Crossman: I cannot accept the presupposition of that question, nor can I really believe that one extra hour will make any difference.
Mr. Whitaker: Will my right hon. Friend say on which day my right hon. Friend the Minister of Social Security will make the announcement on family allowances which he said that she would make?
Mr. Crossman: I think that I mentioned that the statement will be on Monday. I will be made by my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio.
Mr. Deedes: Can the Leader of the House say why, as rather critical arrangements depend on the Bill, the remaining stages of the Dangerous Drugs Bill are not being taken and are, therefore, deferred until the autumn?
Mr. Crossman: I have not heard any objection to that. We are considering taking the remaining stages in the autumn in the "hang-over" period, when the Bill will come from the Lords.
Mr. Ogden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if a statement on family allowances were made on Monday morning that would be most unfortunate?
Mr. Crossman: I am aware of that, and I have taken it into consideration in deciding that the statement shall be made on Monday afternoon.
Mr. Worsley: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the House will have a chance to debate the Government's new policy on family poverty?
Mr. CrossmanWe should await the statement. I anticipate that we shall not be able to debate it before the Summer Recess.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend at long last give time to debate my Motion to provide facilities for seamen returning home from the sea to visit their families? Is his sole reason for not doing so as stated by him in a letter to the Shipping Federation,

2479
that he wants to cut clerical work? If that is the sole reason, is it not disgraceful?
[That this House is of opinion that for social, family, economic and other reasons the withdrawal by British Railways of the cheap fare railway vouchers hitherto available to seamen and their families is wrong as it frustrates family reunions, deprives British Railways of fares, diminishes British Railways income and now calls upon Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Transport, by legislation or otherwise, to restore to British seamen and their families the relevant facilities which they have hitherto enjoyed.]
Mr. Crossman: I dare say that it would be, but I now see that my hon. Friend has anticipated and made arrangements so that we can debate the matter by introducing a Bill under the Ten Minute Rule on 25th October.
Sir C. Osborne: Since there is every indication that the pressure on sterling this autumn will be greater than usual, and that responsible quarters fear that there may be pressure for devaluation, will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that before any such serious step is taken the House will be recalled during the long Recess?
Mr. Crossman: I do not like saying this, but I regard that not as a business question but as a mischievous intervention.
Dr. Summerskill: Would my right hon. Friend urge my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to make a statement on the report of the Sainsbury Committee before the Recess, as the report has been awaited for some years and it is important that we should know its terms?
Mr. Crossman: I shall certainly communicate my hon. Friend's request to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
Mr. Sandys: While I quite understand that differences within the Cabinet have made it impossible for the Prime Minister to make a statement about Rhodesia today, may I ask the Leader of the House to try to ensure that we get a statement on Monday at the latest, for otherwise it will be almost impossible to have a debate before the House rises?
Mr. Crossman: While totally repudiating the first part of that question, I cannot give any assurance about Monday. This is a very important issue. I said that my right hon. Friend will make a statement as soon as he possibly can.
Mr. J. E. B. Hill: Does the Leader of the House realise that by arranging a clash of business on the second Wednesday morning running with the business of the Select Committee on Agriculture he is making it very difficult for the Committee to complete its deliberations? This inflicts an inconvenience not only on its members but also on the clerks and other people trying to serve it. Before doing this, did he have consultations with the chairman of the Committee to try to facilitate our joint arrangements?
Mr. Crossman: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to the White Fish Orders?
Mr. Hill: Strictly within our terms of reference.
Mr. Crossman: I appreciate this, but I was asked about agriculture in the first place. It is extremely difficult at this time in the Session to arrange everything to everybody's convenience, and I think that sometimes specialist Committees will have to remember that the House has to organise its own business as well.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: Will the right hon. Gentleman find a short time for the Vessels Protection Bill, which passed its Committee stage in 14 minutes flat and which the police are hoping will be passed by the Summer Recess?
Mr. Crossman: I am not without hope. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will have a word with me about the Bill.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I notice a second stream of questioners suddenly wanting to join in business questions.
Mr. Marten: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed Motion 613 on the Order Paper—
[That this House expresses its grave concern at the situation which has developed in the Caribbean Islands of St. Kitts, Nevis and Anguilla and, in particularly at the continued detention of a British subject Mr. James Milne Gaskell,

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and at the treatment accorded to the Opposition in the islands; and urges Her Majesty's Government to use every initiative to achieve a satisfactory settlement without further delay.]
dealing with the situation in St. Kitts and the detention of a British subject, Mr. Gaskell?
May we have an assurance that early next week we shall have a statement about the matter from the Commonwealth Secretary?
Mr. Crossman: Yes, Sir. I discussed this with my right hon. Friend before Question Time. If it is suitable, almost certainly a statement will be made.
Mr. Emery: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, perhaps in a more serious vein that he did originally, the suggestion by my hon. Friend about consulting through the usual channels to see whether the economic debate can be extended by an extra hour? That would mean that a lot more Members would be able to get in. As the matter is so serious, will he please take up the suggestion?
Mr. Crossman: I have no doubt that we could debate the economic situation for a very long time. Certainly, we are prepared to consider all these things through the usual channels. However, I think that if we are to have a day, and if a day is what we have got, we had better have a normal day.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Ordered,
  That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Harper.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  28TH ALLOTTED DAY [2nd Series],—considered.
  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
3.42 p.m.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: It is a sad reflection on man and the progress of civilisation that any review which is made today by the Foreign Secretary of international affairs must almost inevitably be a catalogue of disputes and wars. When we could be planning investment in water, food, power and education, which are still the pressing needs of three-quarters of the world, we return time and again in this House in our debates to the sterile business of discussing quarrels and fighting between each other. It almost makes one despair of man's claim to be a creature of reason.
There is one topical example of this with which we are living. There was a rumour broadcast by a propaganda machine that Britain and the United States had intervened in the Egypt-Israel war. Within hours that charge was proved to be untrue. Every Arab Government knew that it was untrue. So did the Egyptian Government. The Soviet Government knows it to be untrue. All the countries represented in the United Nations know it to be untrue. Yet action was and is based upon that false rumour. It has disrupted commercial contracts. It has created an artificial and unnatural division between the Arabs and the West, who had previously been friends, and it has added a new dimension to the Middle East war. It is difficult to see that human folly could go further than that.
There are, I think, signs that there is a recovery of poise. Nevertheless, a warning must be given that if this kind of irresponsibility is to govern international relations, then there will be no peace, and, what is more, the victims will be the new and the developing nations.

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What is the cause? Can we identify the source of all the unrest and outbreaks of violence that there are in so many parts of the world? It was following the Teheran conference during the war that I first became alerted to what I then considered to be, and still do, the overriding post-war problem of the free world.
Then, Stalin's interpretation of the international character of Communism became clear, and it was made even clearer at the Yalta and Potsdam conferences. His interpretation of international Communism was that subversion backed by force was legitimate. The aims of international Communism became clear, to reduce to a shambles all the evolutionary processes, social, economic and political, of countries which differed from the Communist creed, and to do so by internal and external pressures so intense that the countries concerned were faced, and are still faced, with a really acute and appalling dilemma.
Either those countries offer no resistance and have to go under, or else they react, and the reaction has to take the form of force. That is a dilemma which not only the great countries, but the small countries are facing and into which the Communist application of the international theory of Communism has driven almost every country, and it poses a great dilemma for the peace makers.
So the question is, and it is widespread across the world: does a country faced with such a dilemma capitulate, does it resist and probably be accused of being an aggressor, a charges e which is likely to be supported in the United Nations Assembly? In Europe, when faced with this challenge, we stood up to it during the years of the cold war. There is as yet no peace settlement affecting Germany or the future of Berlin. But there the dilemma was clear, and we had to decide whether we should capitulate or whether we should resist. In Europe, it has, as I think every hon. Member knows, been the presence of superior forces, and that alone, which has prevented the Soviets from exercising their option as to whether or not to turn the heat on Berlin and Germany again.
I am not one of those, I hope, who see a Communist under every bush. Indeed, for many years I have done my best to
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seek co-existence and reconciliation between the two points of view, and I think that we must go on in this search. Nevertheless, we must fact facts when we look at the world as it is and ask what is the source of the present trouble which is so rife that it leads to the conclusion that the world is in a severe malaise.
Who foments the riots and brinkmanship in Hong Kong? Who engineered the near take-over of Indonesia? Who compels India to consider arming herself with nuclear weapons? Who, when the rest of the world tries to find a peaceful solution to the Middle East problem, ostentatiously arms Syria and Egypt for the purpose, openly advertised, of a second round of war? Who undermines the authority of newly independent Governments in Africa, saying that the Continent is ripe for revolution? Who has turned the evolutionary process of emancipation of colonial territories from colonial rule into a mad economic, political and chaotic rush? Who is financing revolution, for example, through Cuba in South America? Who consistently prevents the United Nations from effective peacekeeping activities?
The answer—and we must face the fact, reluctant as one is to do so—that these policies, if one can so call them, are fomented in the one case by the Soviet Union and in the other by Communist China. The actions are so consistent and so continuing that I think that there is no alternative but to take them as hard evidence of the intentions of these two countries towards the free world.
I have reminded the House of these facts—and I think that they are facts which can scarcely be challenged—because from them certain questions arise which are very relevant to British foreign policy and defence policy in the modern world. If, as I think we must face, the United Nations is hamstrung, who is to contain these Communist exploits within any bounds? Is there any answer other than the democratic Powers who have the power to do so?
The Question can be even more related to the White Paper on Defence. In those circumstances, if there is any validity in what I have described, is Britain prepared to protect her own interests where these seem to be threatened, or to lend a hand where we have a presence or

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where we have the ability to deploy some strength to influence events in the direction of stability and order?
Mr. J. J. Mendelson: Vietnam?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Vietnam would not be one of those places where we could have very much effect by deploying our strength.
I shall not debate in detail today the Defence White Paper, but in the context in which I am placing it there are three criticisms which I believe to be valid. The first is that the £2,000 million has called the tune and not the Foreign Secretary's concept of the strategic foreign policy of Britain, which takes second place. Secondly, the Government, in spite of the lessons from Malta and Aden, have made the error of indicating a date of withdrawal from Singapore. Indeed, the White Paper seems calculated to assure some critics that the Government will go and, on the other hand, to persuade some people that the Government might in some circumstances stay. In that way, they get the worst of all worlds.
Let us be clear about one thing. From the moment the Government say that they intend to leave some territory and withdraw their presence, both our friends and potential foes begin to think in terms of the successor to the United Kingdom. This is a dangerous thing to happen, because from that moment our influence and authority begin to wane.
Thirdly, if the Government were to slash the Army and Air Force to the extent that they now propose, the decision to scrap aircraft carriers is almost inexplicable. We shall examine in detail the question of the number of troops to be left in Singapore and Butterworth, and also the commitments to be retained—the contribution to the Commonwealth Brigade, membership of S.E.A.T.O. and a defence treaty with Malaysia. The Government are to examine how these commitments are to be fulfilled.
We have come to the conclusion that unless the overall military plan of the Government east of Suez includes a mobile naval and air task force which can give itself adequate air cover—which can deploy air cover from ships at sea—the Government's proposal of force levels in the area will lack all credibility in rela-
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tion to the commitments accepted, which are, in turn, related to the threat from a potential enemy. In these respects we find the White Paper causing us considerable anxiety.
The Government are quite right to give priority to the security of Britain and of the Continent of Europe. Indeed, now the consent of the majority of both parties—I say this carefully in the presence of the Foreign Secretary—has been given to creating a more cohesive unit of Europe, economically, politically and, as the right hon. Gentleman has added lately, perhaps militarily. The latter concept can only be advanced gradually. The idea of an integrated European defence force is not at present acceptable to France.
That United Nations forces might gradually be reduced in Germany would be acceptable to the Germans only if they could see a solid alternative. The shape of a European nuclear organisation must take time to evolve, but surely there can be no doubt that Britain's advice should lean strongly in the direction of Europe assuming a greater responsibility for her own defence. The United States will certainly go for this. It is consistent with the maintenance of the overall United States nuclear deterrent and with the Atlantic Alliance. The more that Europe can accept responsibility for its own defence, the more it will add to Europe's influence and authority in the councils of the world and, indeed, may lead to the day when Europe itself as Europe can take an attitude on some of the great questions I have been talking about.
Mr. Mendelson: It seemed in the debate on the application to join the E.E.C. that the Leader of the-Opposition merely raised a nuclear command as a possibility for discussion and negotiation. Is it now the official attitude of the Opposition that they actively desire the promotion of a new nuclear command based upon N.A.T.O.?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I have just said that the shape of any nuclear organisation and its relationship to the United States overall deterrent would have to be very carefully worked out. I have no fixed ideas on it, but it should not be impossible to work this out with the co-operation of the French and the Americans, perhaps with the kind of

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McNamara Committee concept to which the Germans might easily agree.
But it is a great mistake to advance this at present. I am saying that these things must be taken gradually. The Foreign Secretary was right when he mentioned the possibility of greater responsibility of Europe for its own defence. These things have to be taken gradually. Nevertheless, they should be looked at and considered now.
What are Britain's foreign policy objectives outside Europe? There are two arguments that I cannot follow and to which, therefore, I cannot at present subscribe. Because we rightly give priority to the defence of Europe, I cannot follow those who argue from this that there is nothing that Britain can usefully do outside Europe either to protect her interests or to assist the free world. Because the Arabs momentarily cut off oil supplies, I cannot follow the argument that there are no political or economic advantages which a British presence can gain anywhere and that, therefore, we should go and go now.
We should consider two questions strictly from the point of view of British interests. How, for example, are they best served in the Middle East? By a political set-up dominated by Egypt, Syria and Egyptian-controlled Yemen? Or are they best served by a set-up in which Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey and a South Arabia closely linked to them will exercise the main influence?
I have no doubt about the answer, and that the latter, assisted by quite a modest British presence in the Gulf—and I am glad to see that, by not mentioning this, the White Paper implies that the presence will stay—and supplemented by a defence treaty with South Arabia, could gain the time to thwart the first possibility and ensure the second, thus achieving a very substantial political gain for the free world.
In view of reports in the papers today, I make one more plea to the right hon. Gentleman about the Egyptian use of gas. It is nothing short of an international scandal that this matter has not been taken up actively in the United Nations, and it is almost as great a scandal that Her Majesty's Government will not initiate action in the United Nations in this respect.
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Having made that interpolation, nevertheless the Government have had some second thoughts about South Arabia. I hope that they will achieve the result so that our friends—the Saudi-Arabians, the Turks, the Arabs and South Arabia—in future may exercise the greatest authority in the Middle East area.
I suggest that a similar question should be asked in respect of South-East Asia. Which suits British interests best? is it an area in which the influence of Malaya, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Burma and the Philippines progressively assumes authority, or one in which the influence of Communist China spreads and eventually dominates so that there are puppet Governments everywhere? Neither Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, nor Singapore doubts the answer. Nor have I and my right hon. and hon. Friends any doubt. Does not the security of Commonwealth countries count any longer in the British Government's calculations?
One of the arguments for withdrawal which I find most specious is that the countries of South-East Asia are more likely to keep their independence if European and United States protection is removed. Would any hon. Gentleman who believes that say it to the Tibetans? Would the people of Malaysia accept it, knowing quite well that, if Britain had not protected them, Indonesia would have overrun them within a year?
One day it may be true that these countries can protect themselves, but it is not true yet. That they may protect themselves one day—and I hope that they will in a security system of Asians for Asians—is the reason why I am urging the right hon. Gentleman constantly to take a real initiative to get an Asian nucleus for S.E.A.T.O. There ought to be dynamic diplomacy in this respect by ourselves, the Americans, the Australians and the New Zealanders. On all the evidence which comes to me, it has not been pursued, with the urgency which ought to be given to it.
The ability of these nations to defend themselves is not yet and, therefore, those who advance the proposition that Britain should leave, give up her commitments and evacuate her bases here and now must be made to realise that that proposion can only be valid in the sense that

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the political and military structure which is left behind by the British itself protects the inhabitants of the area. That time is not yet.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: Does it not follow from what the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the independence of South Vietnam, which depends most of all on Western military support, is the most secure in South-East Asia? Is that really true? Is it not a fact that the Americans themselves are committed to military withdrawal from South Vietnam when the war ends? What do we do then?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Let me put it the other way round. If there was no American protection, South Vietnam would be gone tomorrow, and Thailand would follow.
One is bound to come to that conclusion and make this the test: what do we put in our place when we leave, and is it effective? One has to make that the test if one has any regard for the survival of free nations and, to paraphrase the right hon. Gentleman's own words when talking about the Middle East the other day, any hope of preventing a decisive shift in the balance of power further in favour of the Communist Powers.
In these debates, one has the choice of making a sort of Cook's tour round the world or trying to assess the implications for Britain of the general tendencies inherent in a world ruled by power. I do not know which course the right hon. Gentleman will follow. If he takes the latter course, the House will be interested to hear his appreciation of Chinese intentions. We have not heard from him about these, and we should welcome his views.
I have felt compelled to express anxiety about the general situation in the world and, in particular, the relationship of British foreign policy to it—and British defence policy, since publication of the White Paper. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence are responsible jointly for the security of Britain and her rôle in the world. I believe that they will leave the Foreign Secretary with no recognisable foreign policy unless he is extremely careful.
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I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reassure us that the Government have assessed British interests in different parts of the world, that they are determined to protect them, that they understand that Britain can still play a part in the world at the side of her friends and allies to preserve international law and enable ordinary men and women to go about their lawful occasions in peace. In these two respects, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to satisfy the House.
4.6 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): In many ways the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) was an odd speech. I have a great affection for the right hon. Gentleman, as he well knows. I shall deal with many of the points that he raised as I go along.
I was grateful for what he said at the beginning of his speech about the lie which the leaders of Arab nations are pretending to believe. As he said, it is untrue. They know it to be untrue, and it is time that some of them had the courage to stand up and say that it is untrue and arrange their policies accordingly.
I thought that the passage in which the right hon. Gentleman talked about Communism—what he called "the international Communist theory of Communism"—was both too black and white and a little too old-fashioned. It is not quite like that.
The right hon. Gentleman went on immediately to talk about "these two countries"—Russia and Communist China. Any of us dealing with foreign affairs today will know that one does not talk about these two countries in the same context of a so-called international Communist theory of Communism.
I will deal later with what the right hon. Gentleman said about the United Nations, and I will also deal with the question of Britain and her interests in the world.
Having denied that he would deal with the Defence White Paper, of course, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded immediately to do exactly that, as we always do in this House. As I understand, he put forward three accusations.

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The first was that money is dictating our defence policy. If right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have not yet got hold of the point that money—here meaning resources—must, in the end, dictate what we can do in defence and foreign affairs, they should arrange a seminar and get some people to instruct them. Of course, the resources which we have must, in the end, dictate what we can do.
The right hon. Gentleman's second allegation was that we had decided when to get out, and his third was that this proved that we could not have decided not to build "the carrier" as he called it. But "a carrier" would have meant carriers. There is not much left of the Carshalton speech after what the right hon. Gentleman said. There would not be very many tax cuts if we did all that. I shall deal with European defence during the course of what I have to say.
Mr. Peter Tapsell Mr. Peter Tapsell (Horncastle) rose—
Mr. Brown: I have only just started. I shall give way in a moment. I am dealing with the right hon. Gentleman, who can defend himself.
The last thing that the right hon. Gentleman said, and on which I ought to comment before I start on my speech, showed one of the weaknesses from which the Conservatives have always suffered. This is what led them into trouble 11 years ago, and it is a besetting sin from which they never get away. The moment they think of the Middle East, they divide the world into the "goodies" and "baddies". There are those whom we do not like, they are bad, and the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to name them. I do not know what good he thinks that does us, or how much help he thinks that is. Then he named the goodies. I do not know what good he thinks that does them. I said this the other day.
I urge the Conservative Opposition to stop this business. In the Middle East, let us deal with nations as grown-up nations, and have our policy with them according to the way we see it. Do not let us go on identifying those whom we like, and those whom we do not like, and using emotive terms about them. It does no good to us, or to them.
As the right hon. Gentleman said, we have had many debates on foreign affairs this Session. Indeed, having done a little
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research, I find that we have had more than in any Session for a long time. We have had 10 specific debates on foreign affairs, so it is very difficult to make a speech today which either does not repeat much of what one has already said, or does not anticipate the debate that is to come next week on defence.
Viscount Lambton: Talk about gas.
Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman is a great authority on that. I am not for the moment dealing with that.
We have had notable debates, on the Common Market on 10th May, and on the Middle East on 31st May, both of which I remember with rather special note. I thought that they were quite outstanding. It is six months since we had a general discussion. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether I wanted to do a Cook's tour round the world. It is one of my terrible fears that one day I shall fall into that trap for want of something else to do, but I do not propose to do it now.
In six months we have seen war and violence in the Middle East, in the Congo, in South Arabia, in Nigeria, and in Vietnam. I think that we might have a disagreement here. I believe that the world situation, beset as it is by wars, by the danger of the escalation of wars, calls more surely than ever for an effective world authority. I believe that there is only one practical road to that goal, and it is to make the most that we can of the United Nations.
This is why the basis of our foreign policy, despite the right hon. Gentleman's misgivings about it, is to give wholehearted support to the United Nations, to back it up, to be guided by its decisions, and to play our part fully in building up the authority which it needs. Without a real world authority, there can be no peace in the world. There can be only a peace troubled by fears of war, broken by recurring conflicts, and haunted by the dangers of total war. This is the theme of what I have to say today.
In the final analysis, a foreign policy based on active belief in the United Nations is, in my view, the only policy which carries with it a hope for a world order based on something more than the uneasy balance of power, and the jungle of the unbridled authority of sovereign

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States. I know the shortcomings of the United Nations. I know what, in present circumstances, it can do, and what it cannot do. Because of these shortcomings, we have, for our own security, and the security of the world, to pursue a policy of alliances, but this is not at variance with the purposes of the United Nations. Indeed, this is provided for in the Charter.
The point I want to underline at the beginning of what I have to say is that, in my view, we must never underestimate the rôle which the United Nations can play, and is playing today. The right hon. Gentleman took the Middle East for part of his case. Let me follow suit. This is the region of the world uppermost in our minds at the moment. With all the difficulties and disappointments that we have had there, it is still the United Nations which provides the means for dealing with the immediate and practical problems—the problems of the cease-fire, the problem of the refugees. It is still the organisation which provides the essential diplomatic framework within which a settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute should, and could, be reached.
Since our last debate on the Middle East, we have seen developments. U.N.T.S.O. officers have been deployed on both sides of the Suez Canal. This move came from an initiative by the Secretary-General, supported by the Security Council. It is, some may say, small, but it is without any question a most significant beginning in ensuring the continuance of the cease-fire, and in helping us to move to the next considerations which have to be taken into account. A further development has been the appointment by the Secretary-General of Mr. Gussing, of Sweden, to go to the Middle East to look into the problems of the refugees on the spot. There was, and there is, no other organisation, no other umbrella, under which this could happen.
At the General Assembly the emergency session is now drawing to a close, and again it is true that the debate showed a notably growing sense of realism among the nations and their delegates. As the debate progressed from week to week, it showed a wide measure of agreement in analysing a number of the main problems on matters like the
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need for a high level representative of the Secretary-General to be in the Middle East. But, despite all that, it seems likely—and to some extent I regret it—that the Assembly will now adjourn without giving any formal expression of opinion, other than the need—and this is important in its way—not to prejudice the future Jerusalem, and on the need for an international action to help refugees. The Security Council must now take the problem back, take up its work again, and get on with the task of working out answers to the difficult and dangerous problems, and Her Majesty's Government will play their full part in that.
As we are talking about the Middle East in this general context, perhaps I might turn briefly, as the right hon. Gentleman did, to the Persian Gulf, and say a word about that. This is a delicate area, where we have both major interests and continuing obligations. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, and as the House knows, we shall have left Aden by the New Year. We have done and are doing our best to ensure that South Arabia begins its independent existence in conditions of security, but in the present disturbed situation in the Middle East we must be particularly concerned about the stability and security of the Gulf area, for which we still have treaty responsibilities. It is our long-term aim to create a situation in which these small States can stand on their own feet. At present, they need our help and we propose to keep small forces there to meet our obligations.
I would like to correct one widespread misapprehension. Our forces are not in the Persian Gulf simply to protect our oil interests as such, but to maintain stability in the area. Many of the countries in the Gulf have unresolved territorial claims on each other. The House will remember that in 1961 there was a threat to Kuwait from Iraq. If we were to pull out at once we could only expect these old claims to come to the surface and the stability of the Gulf would thereby be put at risk.
Mr. John Lee: My right hon. Friend says that our forces are there for the purpose of helping to delimit frontier disputes. Bearing in mind the fact that most of the countries

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in the Persian Gulf have never had recognised frontiers, does my right hon. Friend mean that we can carry out a cadastral survey and complete this task in the short time that we are likely to be there?
Mr. Brown: No, but knowing the area personally, as I do, I am certain that by being there for the time being—in the way in which we are—we are helping to provide stability in the period of carryover during which people can learn to live with each other and perhaps carry out their own cadastral survey.
Mr. James Davidson: The question of our treaty obligations in the Persian Gulf is frequently raised, but as far as I can ascertain they are limited to a treaty dating back over 100 years, by which we are obliged to prevent slave trading in the Gulf. Beyond that we have no treaty obligations in the area.
Mr. Brown: I am sorry, but the hon. Member is wrong.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home Sir Alec Douglas-Home rose—
Mr. Brown: May I answer for the Government? I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for trying to help, but it is not always useful. The hon. Member is wrong in what he says. There are other treaties, exchanges of Letters and various matters of that kind. We certainly have obligations there.
But the real point is not that so much as the fact that I believe that at the moment, by maintaining what we are doing there, we are doing better than we would by getting out, if we are thinking in terms of stability, security and a peaceful transition to a different order, when these countries can stand on their own feet.
I was not going to say any more about the Middle East or to raise other subjects on which the House has recently spent a lot of time. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there is one part of the world about which we have talked very little during the Session. The right hon. Gentleman said that the House had heard little about it from the Government; the fact is that the House has heard little from either side. I refer to the question of the Far East and South-East Asia.
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There is no doubt that this area will inevitably feature greatly in the debate on the Defence White Paper next week, and, therefore, it would be useful if I said something about it today, not only for its own intrinsic merits but also because it might help the House with the debate we will have next week.
There are three things that I should like to say straight away.
Viscount Lambton: What about gas in the Yemen?
Mr. Brown: First, our defence decisions, announced in the White Paper, do not mean that we are no longer concerned with this area of South-East Asia, and do not mean that we are no longer concerned with the welfare of our friends there. We shall continue to honour our obligations to S.E.A.T.O. But I must make it clear that what is said in the White Paper means that our force declarations to S.E.A.T.O. will be progressively altered in nature and size. These we shall be working out in detail over the coming months.
As for the Anglo-Malaysian Treaty, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, we shall have discussions with the Governments of Singapore and Malaysia about how we shall meet our obligation, which is to help in their external defence. Secondly, we shall be giving significant—I underline the word "significant"—aid both to Singapore and Malaysia to enable them to adjust their economies to the new state of affairs. Although we use words here as economically as we can I am sure that the House will be cognisant of the size of the problem, for example, facing Singapore in terms of adjusting its economy to a situation where we are no longer providing, through our defence operations, the proportion of its gross national product that we do today. I want to make it clear that we understand this, sympathise with it, and will significantly help.
Thirdly, we fully realise that the countries in the area may still need our support. We consider that the best way for us to provide this is by helping them with the more sophisticated types of military equipment which we can contribute, but which, if they had to acquire them alone, would be a very heavy strain on their economies.

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In considering South-East Asia, perhaps we should remind ourselves that that area means far more than the area of the Vietnam conflict. Nothwithstanding that conflict, it is an area where there are many positive and encouraging developments which merit a word or two in this debate.
First, there has been the progress made since confrontation came to an end. The policies of President Sukarno, which we and our Commonwealth allies firmly resisted, encouraged hatred between peoples whose prosperity lies not in hatred, but in peaceful collaboration. President Sukarno's policies failed, and with the ending of confrontation—and it is salutary on this 20th July to remember that just one year ago we were not sure whether confrontation had ended—a more hopeful future has opened up for the Governments of the non-Communist countries of South-East Asia. They are today evolving ways of living together in peace and of co-operating for their mutual benefit.
Last February, I told the House that I believed that the great promise for the peaceful development of South-East Asia lay in genuine regional co-operation between those countries. In all the moves that have taken place over the past 18 months—in the meetings of the Association of South-East Asia and of the Asian and Pacific Council, in the specialised meetings on education and economic development, and in the moves for a new Association which the Thais have told us are well advanced—the important thing is that the initiatives have come wholly from Asian countries themselves. It is the Asians who are the driving force behind this movement, who are giving it its impetus, and in my view it is important that this should be so and should be seen to be so. We should get away from the old criticism that there were some people from outside who were trying to make use of them for other purposes.
We in Britain are playing an active part in one of these organisations—the Asian Development Bank. We are contributing about £10 million to it. One of the first major enterprises of the bank looks like being the establishment of a Special Agricultural Fund, for which there will be big contributions from Japan and the United States. The purpose of
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this will be to provide loans on easy terms for the financing of agricultural developments in the countries which belong to it.
Much of the happier atmosphere in South-East Asia today is reflected particularly in the changes which have taken place within Indonesia in the past year. I wish to pay my personal tribute to the leaders in Indonesia who have courageously and powerfully led this change of policy and attitude.
Indonesia has returned to the community of nations and has achieved a new relationship of trust and friendship with its neighbours. Now there is the formidable problem of re-establishing Indonesia's economy. Together with Indonesia's other Western friends, we have been taking part in a series of international meetings to discuss the rescheduling of Indonesia's debts to her Western creditors and to discuss the aid which Indonesia needs to carry that country through the current year.
We have agreed that there should be a moratorium of Indonesia's debt repayments until 1971 and that, thereafter, the debts should be paid off over a period of eight years. As for aid, sufficient funds have now been pledged to cover the gap in Indonesia's estimated balance of payments this year, and we ourselves have followed up the £1 million grant which we made last year by a long-term, interest-free loan of £½ million, which we have now made.
This brings me to the subject of Vietnam.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I was glad to hear what the right hon. Gentleman said about Indonesia. Would not he agree that one reason why Indonesia has been able to make this important improvement is because Britain, with its allies, held the line in the Far East during confrontation? Was not this the essential factor on which progress has been built?
Mr. Brown: There is no doubt at all that the contribution which we made, with our allies, in Malaysia during that period provided the opportunity for this to happen. It did not have to follow that it would happen, but it did happen and that is the important thing. I therefore do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman.

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The enormous potential—and it is enormous—in South East Asia can be developed only in conditions of peace. The major obstacle is, of course, the war in Vietnam. Despite what we feel about the Middle East, no part of the world scene is today more full of tragedy and human suffering than Vietnam.
No solution has so far been found, but I repeat that this is not for lack of any effort on our part, nor for any lack of readiness to work on the many suggestions put forward. A solution has not been found because no one has yet managed to create the conditions of confidence in which both sides can agree to take balanced steps towards reducing the fighting and, therefore, towards negotiations.
For our part, we can claim to have been unremitting in our efforts to aid in the creation of these conditions. We have maintained continued and close contact with the United States, with the Soviet Union and with others whose special knowledge or special position might be used to break the deadlock. On every possible occasion I have urged the Soviet co-chairman to reconvene the Geneva Conference. I have supported the efforts which the Secretary-General of the United Nations has made. I have tried every way I know to get it across to Hanoi—I choose my words carefully—that peace is there for the asking.
A balanced peace, which alone can guarantee stability, needs a balanced approach to negotiations; and, for this, I believe that something must go into both sides of the scales. If the North Vietnamese can show that something will go into the scales from their side, I am absolutely sure that the American side will be filled with ample measure. The tragedy is that Hanoi remains silent.
The subject of Vietnam leads me, as it did the right hon. Gentleman, to a consideration of China, a country on which inevitably the future of mankind depends so much. For more than a year the Chinese have been engaged on a vast internal transformation, the so-called cultural revolution, which they tell us is aimed at staving off the onset of "revisionism".
Even from the limited information available to the outside world, it is clear
2500
that this movement is having tremendous repercussions within China. I do not wish to go into this highly debatable issue of internal questions in China. The Chinese must, of course, decide for themselves, in their own way, the kind of society they want and I, at any rate as Foreign Secretary, am not concerned with that aspect. Recently, however, the cultural revolution has spilled over into the sphere of foreign affairs in ways which impinge directly on us, and it is on these aspects that I wish to comment.
First, there is the serious question of the treatment of Her Majesty's representatives in China. Our Mission in Peking has recently been the object of several organised demonstrations. On two occasions demonstrators broke into the Mission's premises, molested the staff and damaged property. But the Chinese authorities, despite requests from our Chargé d'Affaires, made no attempt to restrain the demonstrators.
Earlier, our representative in Shanghai and his family were subjected to gross indignities and physical maltreatment, and their personal belongings were destroyed by a mob acting with the consent, if not the connivance, of the Chinese authorities. I am sure that the House will genuinely join with me—and these are not just words introduced for the purpose—in paying great tribute to the courage and patience shown by our Chargé d'Affaires and all our staff in these very trying circumstances.
There is a growing tendency on the part of the Chinese Government in their dealings not only with us, but with the diplomatic representatives of other countries to encroach upon the normal functions of diplomatic missions and to flout the internationally long-accepted principles of diplomatic immunity. I find this extremely disturbing, to put it mildly. It calls in question the normal civilised means of communication between governments which, for centuries, have formed the basis of international diplomacy. We have recently reminded the Chinese Government of their obligations in this respect and we have told them unmistakably that we consider this to be a matter of fundamental importance in our relations.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: While absolutely accepting my right hon. Friend's statement about

2501
the bravery and courage with which our diplomats in China resisted the sort of treatment about which he spoke, cannot my right hon. Friend say something about why the Chinese may be behaving as they are? Would he care to comment on the fact that while we voted for China's inclusion in the United Nations, we went on, at the behest of the United States, to vote for China's exclusion by means of a procedural device, which meant that we knew that everybody else knew—[Interruption.] I hope that my right hon. Friend will comment on this matter, which is vitally important.
Mr. Brown: I intend to discuss the question of China's membership of the United Nations, and I will be doing so quite openly. I say to my hon. Friend, with the greatest affection and respect, that she will get no mileage out of trying to explain away China's behaviour in this matter.
Before dealing with that—and I promise to do so in a moment—I want to consider the second field in which the cultural revolution has, as it were, lapped over and impinged on us, and that, of course, is Hong Kong. My right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary has already told the House that the Hong Kong Government have acted with the greatest possible restraint in maintaining peace in the territory, and I want to repeat that there is no foundation whatever for Chinese accusations of atrocities, or anything meriting that word, on the part of the British authorities, or the Hong Kong authorities.
But we cannot allow ourselves to be intimidated either by threats from China, or by violent outbreaks of local Communist sympathisers. As my right hon. Friend made clear in his statement of 10th July, the Hong Kong authorities have the full support of Her Majesty's Government in taking all necessary measures to maintain peace and security there. We intend to fulfil our responsibilities towards Hong Kong and to take all the measures needed to restore the situation so that the people who live there may settle down again to their normal pursuits, which is what the vast majority of them want. On this basis, we hope that our relations with China
2502
may return to their previous footing, to the mutual benefit of China, ourselves and Hong Kong.
I now come to the issue which my hon. Friend raised. Clearly, it is in the interest of everyone that a country of more than 700 million people should play its legitimate part in world affairs and co-operate in helping to keep the peace. China is one of the great nations of the world. An effective world authority needs China to play her part within it. That is why we have constantly and consistently supported the admission of China to the United Nations. We shall continue to do so, but I must add that China herself, by her behaviour in the field of diplomacy and by her attitude towards the United Nations, seems to be her own worst advocate, and that needs saying to China.
Some hon. Members may wonder whether much is to be gained at present by maintaining our relations with China in view of the treatment meted out to our Mission. Her Majesty's Government believe that recognition of a foreign Government, as I have said many times before, should not depend on our approval of its policies or its politics. Experience has also shown that once relations are broken, resumption is often a lengthy and difficult business. For these reasons, we shall seek to maintain our relations with China, to continue to trade with her and to have other contacts in so far as these are possible.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: Why do we continue to vote for the procedural device which effectively excludes China from the United Nations?
Mr. Brown: The question which my hon. Friend is asking is whether one should vote for a resolution in the United Nations which would declare that the admission of China was not an important issue. I am bound to say to my hon. Friend that one would swallow very hard before actually saying that the admission of China was not an important issue. I know what she has in mind, but I beg her not to overplay her hand. This is a very difficult issue to settle. Some year it will be settled, but it will be settled in a year when the climate and the behaviour of China are both such as to mean that China is about to he admitted.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Has the right hon. Gentleman had occasion to consider the argument on the legal point which was put to his colleague the Minister of State by Mr. Humphry Berkeley, of the United Nations Association, and which showed that under paragraphs 2 and 3 of Article 18 of the Charter this ought to be dealt with as a matter of procedure, that is to say, by a majority vote, as was done in the case of Czechoslovakia and other nations which have changed their Governments since becoming members of the United Nations?
Mr. Brown: I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend. I regard him as more of an authority on these matters than is Mr. Humphry Berkeley.
I have the issue very much in mind. Last year, I considered very closely whether we should change our practice in this procedural matter. It is a very difficult issue and one must pick the moment when we bring the procedural vote into line with the other vote. I do not think we would have helped if we had done anything about that up to now.
I was saying that international relations must, of course, be a two-way business. I think that we can honestly claim that we have made considerable efforts in the past to improve our relations with China. We are willing to go on doing so, but all the efforts cannot come from one side. If China is interested in better relations, it is up to her to show it and to recognise that such an improvement cannot be based on action by us alone.
In so many of the really important fields in foreign affairs, as the right hon. Gentleman will know better yet than I do, policies must be pursued consistently and vigorously over long periods if they are to have a chance to be successful. There are very few short cuts in this area of policy. This is true of our determination to have better relations with China; it applies equally to our policy of détente between East and West, to the whole movement towards European integration and, above all, as I said at the beginning, to our United Nations policy. We believe that we have the right aims in our foreign policy. We recognise the need to pursue them consistently and in the knowledge that results must sometimes—and I might even say often—be
2504
slow in coming. We also know that the tactical handling of these matters requires a great deal of flexibility. I ask the House to approach these issues in the debate in the same spirit.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask whether he has read accounts that Egyptian officials in San'a are saying that if the Royalist Government does not capitulate, villages in the Yemen will be bombed with gas? Is not this an occasion on which the right hon. Gentleman must take an initiative in the matter?
Mr. Brown: I have read the reports, but, as I said to the right hon. Gentleman in the Middle East debate the other day, this is a matter in which the initiative ought to be taken by the authorities of the country on whose territory it is happening. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Hon. Members can contest that with me, but I take the view that that is the right way in which to approach it. I do not think that I would help by myself raising it, or getting it raised on our initiative.
Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask whether he is seriously suggesting that the Republican Government of the Yemen will raise at the United Nations the fact that poison gas is being used in their support? Surely he is not asking us to accept that he believes that.
Mr. Brown: Other Governments, nearer to the situation than we are, are concerned. It is rather interesting that they did not raise it.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Brown: I am not having a question and answer session; and, in fact, I have sat down. I shall carefully listen to what hon. Members have to say, but I can only say that, having considered this very carefully, I have come to the conclusion that it simply would not help if this were to be an issue raised by Britain.
4.50 p.m.
Mr. John Peel: The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary chided my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) with having said that he would not comment on

2505
the Government's Defence White Paper, and then proceeded to talk about the Defence White Paper a certain amount himself. As the right hon. Gentleman will not doubt admit, defence and foreign affairs are, of course, closely interrelated. We cannot discuss the one without considering the other.
The Foreign Secretary also accused my right hon. Friend of being a little too black and white in his description of the "goodies" and the "baddies", but I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman was a bit too facile himself in talking about the rsources which a country must have to build up its defences. Of course a country, must have resources, but what we on this side of the House argue and disagree about with the Government is the proportion of our resources which they are prepared to allocate to our adequate and proper defence and the carrying out of our foreign policy. We maintain that a great country like ours, which is not prepared to devote 7 per cent. of its gross national product to looking after its interests in the world, is not worthy of continuing to be described as a great country.
I should like to take up with the right hon. Gentleman his insistence upon the importance of the United Nations as a world authority. This would be an ideal, but, so long as the veto in the Security Council, as it exists today, continues, I cannot see how it is possible for the United Nations to be an effective world authority. Until the great Powers are prepared to treat the United Nations as it should be treated, it cannot possibly fulfil its proper functions.
I want now to look at one very important part of the world and, in the lengthening list of withdrawals from our responsibilities, to speak about the latest—South-East Asia and the Far East. Despite the Government's mistaken policy, as we maintain, in Aden and South Arabia, the Government now propose to withdraw from our bases in South-East Asia and they have given dates. There is to be a very substantial withdrawal by 1970–71 and complete withdrawal by the mid-1970s.
However, as so often with this Government, they tend to hedge their bets when they produce White Papers. On foreign policy the new Defence White
2506
Paper, at the end of paragraph 8 on page 5, states:
"We plan to withdraw altogether from our bases in Singapore and Malaysia in the middle 1970s; the precise timing of our eventual withdrawal will depend on progress made in achieving a new basis for stability in South-East Asia and in resolving other problems in the Far East."
That is quite a bibful, but to name a date publicly by which the Government propose to withdraw from our bases in South-East Asia they must surely have had some grounds for seeing the emergence of a new basis for stability. It would be very interesting to know what they do see, because I hope that it is not just the end of confrontation.
Personally, I am not convinced that this is by any means necessarily permanent. Nor do I think that the Prime Minister of Malaysia or the Prime Minister of Singapore are by any means convinced that Indonesia has permanently rejected a policy of confrontation. It could easily be switched on again. Those parts of Malaysia in Borneo, Sabah and Sarawak are very much out on a limb. They are very susceptible and could very quickly be threatened by a reintroduction of a policy of confrontation, to say nothing of the protected State of Brunei with which we have a treaty.
Indonesia is far from stable as yet. I do not believe that in his heart of hearts the Prime Minister of Malaysia trusts the Indonesian situation or many of the elements that go to make up that widespread, diverse and very unsettled country. They have a long way to go before any stable relationships in that part of the world emerge.
It would be very much to the advantage of those countries if the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation could be widened and strengthened, but there is little sign of that at the moment. There have been suggestions that the Malaysian, Philippino and Indonesian peoples might get together in some kind of federation, but those who are leaders in that part of the world and who know the area best do not even take this proposition seriously as yet. It is not even a starter.
Rather than a tendency to stabilisation, there has been a tendency to fragmentation, because Singapore, which, at one time, was part of Malaysia, has now

2507
separated off and, in a way, could become something like a Far Eastern Israel. There is no doubt that the island of Singapore, peopled by a great majority of Chinese who could become very formidable fighters if they so made up their minds, is determined to defend itself and, under extremely able leadership, is an island which will have to be reckoned with in that part of the world.
The situation in Vietnam is still a long way from settlement.
In these circumstances, it seems the height of folly to give notice of a time of withdrawal of one of the greatest stabilising influences in that part of the world—namely, Britain—particularly against the wishes of the countries concerned. Both Singapore and Malaysia are very anxious that Britain should remain and play her part. If we withdrew and left a power vacuum, as we should, I do not believe that the Americans can at the present time adequately fill that vacuum. Such action on our part is asking for increased pressure upon the peoples of that part of the world and increased instability, and that will increase as the time for our withdrawal draws nearer.
Turning to Europe, the state of the North Atlantic Alliance, too, is becoming weaker rather than stronger. It has been seriously weakened by French actions and now by us. I believe that many of our allies are beginning to ask themselves whether Britain really cares about looking after her interests adequately and of being a good ally. As that happens many of our allies, too, will begin to lose interest.
It seems to me that there are already signs that a vigilant potential enemy is already beginning to take advantage of a weakening situation in the West. We are now seeing a formidable build-up in the Mediterranean of Russian power, particularly naval. Today the Foreign Secretary is neglecting the advice and the statement of one of his great predecessors in his own party who said that in no circumstances would he walk naked into the council chamber. It seems to me that Britain is steadily and not very slowly throwing her clothes away. I hope that I am wrong.
However, I come back again to some of the opening remarks of some of the right hon. Gentlemen. The basic strength
2508
of the country, its power to influence the world and its power in foreign affairs depend upon its economic strength at home. This is at the bottom of everything.
Mr. George Brown: Hear, hear.
Mr. Peel: The right hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear", but, unfortunately, he and his right hon. Friend are the architects of the economic chaos and mess that we are in.
The great plan that the right hon. Gentleman originally produced went into the wastepaper basket. Foreign affairs depends on the economic strength of the country. That is at the bottom of it all. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that not long ago he said that his party would have no more alibis to produce in relation to the economic situation of the country, that it took the blame for the position that we are in. If we have not the resources to have a proper, adequate foreign policy it is his fault and that of his right hon. Friends.
5.2 p.m.
Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I shall not follow the hon. Member for Leicester, South-East (Mr. Peel)—I should be in some danger of error if I did—in discussing the National Economic Plan. Much of his comment seemed hardly appropriate, beyond a passing reference, in a debate of this kind.
I want to say a few words about a situation in a country with which we are involved in many ways—through the United Nations, through our activities and interests in connection with O.E.C.D. and also through a very long traditional friendship and alliance. I refer to Greece.
One of the tragedies of the Greek situation is that so many great world events have overshadowed what has been happening these past weeks in Greece. There is grave danger of Greece being swept finally behind the Fascist curtain while these other great events outside are taking place elsewhere. We have, however, responsibilities and involvements in Greece, just as we have in the Middle East and South-East Asia. What has happened in Greece is in danger of causing much wider trouble in that part of the world. I need hardly mention Cyprus, and what

2509
is feared may happen in Cyprus even at this moment, to show how involved we are in the problem.
When the military coup took place on 21st April, 149 members of the Labour Party and the Liberal Party expressed their grave anxiety about what was happening in Greece. Nothing has happened since then to lessen our anxiety. Indeed, the situation is consolidating itself for the worse.
Viscount Lambton: I was in Greece at the same time as the hon. Gentleman. Would he not agree that there was almost absolute peace and quiet after the coup?
Mr. MacMillan: I agree with the noble Lord. It was not quite the peace of the the graveyard, but it was the silence of a people confronted by tanks and guns. If he were in such a situation he would be quiet, too, and would not have dared to interrupt as he has just done.
Viscount Lambton: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree—I know that he was in Athens, and I aslo know that he is a man of integrity—that there were very small military forces in Athens? Hardly any were visible. Normal life went on not affected by the Military.
Mr. MacMillan: If the noble Lord will allow me to go on with my normal speech in my normal way I shall perhaps come to that subject. However, what he says is, in fact, a point strongly in favour of what I am about to say, first, conditions in Greece were extremely normal considering that elections were to take place a few weeks later, promised by the King and the Government and arranged for through the Parliament. For the first time in many elections, the 'two major parties in Greece had agreed that no caretaker Government would be required during the election. It was agreed that the Right-wing Government should remain in office for that purpose. There had not been such an agreement for many years.
Once that had been agreed, a calm descended upon the country which had not been possible for several months beforehand when the nation was frustrated from going to elections because of the activities of the extreme Right, the Establishment and the Palace itself.
2510
Efforts had deliberately been made in one attempt after another to demonstrate the failure of Parliamentary democracy in Greece by setting up collapsible coalition Governments. But it had not failed any more than it had in many other countries, nor to a greater degree. So, with the elections due, calm existed. But the very fact that the agreement between the parties existed was one more reason why no unconstitutional action should have been taken to disturb the course of the elections. So I find it extremely difficult to justify the arguments about the disturbances which were going on in Greece which the military junta now uses as part of its justification for taking over the country and abolishing the Parliament and all the democratic institutions in Greece.
Mrs. Renée Short: That was Hitler's excuse.
Mr. MacMillan: But Hitler at least appealed to the electorate and was elected. But the mob in Greece who claimed to be the Government dared not face elections and would not allow free elections to others. As the noble Lord said, calm prevailed at election time in the country, but it was, indeed, only remarkable, considering the refusal month after month to allow normal elections to take place and considering the plot to prevent earlier elections in which the Palace was involved.
When one considers all these provocations and electoral irritations, it is only remarkable how calm the people were. After the coup the calm continued; but it was a calm enforced by the army. The noble Lord could not have gone into the side streets in Athens or looked behind the university or the Parliament or into the Royal Park. If he had he would have seen the tanks. I agree that they were not on the streets. One cannot have both tanks and tourists on the same streets, at any rate not for long. If tanks are there the tourists will go. I am surprised that the noble Lord did not see a great deal more than he says he did. He could not have been very observant for a journalist of his receptive capacity.
There was no violence from the Centre, and none from the Left because neither the Centre nor the Left was planning violence, and neither was equipped for violence. The revolutionaries, so called

2511
by the junta, were found peacefully in their beds and dragged out of them in the middle of the night. These included the Conservative Prime Minister, Mr. Canellopoulos, a Greek 1967 version of Stanley Baldwin, a highly respectable constitutional Conservative. Nevertheless, he was regarded as being insufficiently reactionary and Right-wing by the junta, and it dragged him out of his bed. He resisted, but he was dragged away to imprisonment. So was ex-Premier George Papandreou, another elderly man; and, admits Brigadier Pattakos, 10,000 other people were also dragged away to prison early on 21st April.
The calm prevailing was, as I have said, the calm next to the calm of the cemetery. It was the calm of people threatened with the cemetery if they broke it. We know that Greece has gone, for the time being, behind the nearest thing to a Fascist curtain that we have in Western Europe outside Spain and Portugal. Who have declared themselves in favour of this régime? Very few indeed. I do not think that even General Franco sent a congratulatory telegram; or that Salazar has sent any congratulations. Nor has anyone, so far as I know, in any country, except for Colonel Grivas, who sent a telegram—it was not too welcome for obvious reasons—from Cyprus, immediately after the coup.
Without mentioning names, I regret that in this country there are a few prominent people who have aligned themselves with the new Fascist régime. So far as I know, no one else in Europe has expressed approbation of this mutiny and rebellion against the constitutional Government, against Parliamentary and the other free institutions of Greece.
Who are these people in power in Greece? They were absolutely unknown until the day after the coup. They were not even the senior command of the Army, but from the second rank. It was a rebellion against their seniors and against the commander-in-chief. The King claims to be the commander-in-chief and if the junta was not, in fact, technically in rebellion against him, then it must have done what it did with his connivance. That is still a very open question indeed. So much confusion was deliberately woven round it, that it is
2512
difficult to establish the exact part played by the King at this moment.
Viscount Lambton: It is less than generous for the hon. Gentleman to say that the King in any way connived at this revolution. There is much evidence to show that he did nothing whatever.
Mr. MacMillan: There is no evidence whatever to show that he did not. There is every indication that he was very quick indeed to endorse the action of the junta. There has been no public statement that he did not approve it Everyone in contact with Greece over the years and particularly these past months knows that there has been a long-term plot brewing in which it was widely suspected throughout Greece that the Establishment and the Palace itself was very much involved. When Pattakos and Papadopoulos and the rest of the rebels took action on the night of 20th-21st they are believed to have adopted a N.A.T.O. emergency plan, devised for a different situation of national danger, and to have forestalled the longer-term coup which was being planned by agents provocateurs by the extreme Right and the High Command, through possible disturbances in the elections and otherwise.
The reasons given by the junta and its supporters and apologists here and elsewhere for taking over were that it expected the leader of the Centre Union, Mr. Papandreou, to go to Salonika on the Sunday night and rally the nation to revolution. At the same time it was believed that the Centre Union would win overwhelmingly in the elections in a few weeks' time. Who in his senses, as the leader of any political party on the eve of his own overwhelming victory, would involve himself, his party and country in violent revolution?
Secondly, there is no evidence whatever that any arms had been accumulated by any party, or that any organised violence was contemplated by either the Centre Union or the Left-wing forces in Greece, because they were taken by surprise in the middle of the night and offered no violence, except possibly with their fists. They were wheeled away en masse in trucks to concentration camps and island prisons.
Throughout this, the calm admired so much by the noble Lord continued, but

2513
it was the calm of imposed tyranny, and the enforced calm, politically, of a new brand of Fascism. What worries me is that this sort of coup can happen in other countries. It may well be the pattern for similar action in Italy, France and elsewhere within the N.A.T.O. Alliance. It has already happened, indeed in Greece, with the N.A.T.O. Alliance. The N.A.T.O. emergency plan used in Athens is common knowledge to the French, Italians and everyone in N.A.T.O. It was used first and perverted by this group of Greek officers. We have to look at this as one of the fundamental dangers, and we have been warned.
These people now in power have no constitutional authority, in spite of what has been said, even on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. The suspension of certain Articles of the Constitution is provided for against certain national emergencies, particularly danger from outside the country, involving great disturbance within the country. Article 91 has a provision, however, that any suspension of those rights of the Greek people must be ratified by Parliament within 10 days. The King has no constitutional authority to endorse the suspension of those Articles of the Constitution without the official ratification by Parliament within 10 days.
In spite of that, he permitted, accepted and endorsed the action of the junta in suspending the rights of the people under the Constitution, and recognised the junta as a Government. On this very tenuous and doubtful constitutional point—its acceptance by the King, illegally—the Government here and Governments throughout the world have recognised the junta as the Government of Greece. This is a very feeble constitutional basis, and Her Majesty's Government should look again at this point, because it is one of very great importance.
I cannot blame the noble Lord for talking about the Athens calm. I am sure that if he had been there a few days before the coup, like everyone else he would have been taken unawares by it, as most people were. It is astonishing to find out how naive even people like Mr. Canopoulos, a leading Greek politician, with all his experience of Greek politics, were within days of the coup. I had had
2514
correspondence with him and other Greek leaders on that very subject for a long time and almost a year to the day, in the course of a letter of 21st March, 1966, he wrote to me:
"You say that powerful circles in Greece are working for a possible abolition of Parliamentary Government in the country. I am afraid that your information is not correct. Such powerful circles do not exist as far as I know."
Almost everyone in Greece was taken by surprise. No one expected this exact type of rebellion by this rank and type of military mutineer at that very moment. They were not fully ready for it, even on the Right wing, which was always suspicious of what the Left wing was up to and thinking in terms of a take-over to stop them. There was, however, growing preparation for this brand of revolution further to the Right. Deeper into the Establishment, the responsibility for the military violence is greater, and the knowledge of military coup preparations was much more intimate.
Can one say, on the other hand, that there was a pattern or background of violence so far as the mass of the Greek people, or the Centre Union party was concerned? That is the idea used to justify this coup, as having forestalled violence. The apologists for this coup have to go back 20 years, to the old violence of the Civil War, in order to get some background of disturbance against which to justify the coup taking place in April, 1967. A more feeble argument than that I cannot conceive of.
The two big political parties had reached an agreement such as had not been reached in other elections. The elections were being conducted by the Right-wing party without any fundamental objection by the others. Yet they had the coup.
This is a tragedy for so many, because not only Greece is involved. This is a pattern of mutiny and seizure of power which could be very dangerous in certain circumstances in some other countries within the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
I regret that it is necessary to underline the constitutional point of the King's involvement and illegal endorsement of the rebel junta as a government. This is the one point upon which our recognition has been accorded to the new junta in Greece—the fact that the King has

2515
accepted the junta. This is, and will remain, a matter for considerable constitutional, moral and political argument. Brigadier Pattakos, who is one of the two really tough guys in the junta, said in Northern Greece on 3rd July:
"I want to convey to you"—
he was talking to the Greek people—
"this message of faith and optimism and to reassure you that the revolution of 21st April, inspired by our beloved King Constantine, symbol and creator of the unity and power of our nation, and guided by the incorruptible servant of justice, the President of the Government, Mr. Kollias, and working tirelessly in complete harmony with the members of our national Government of selected scientists and military persons, has decided to complete her task by any means."
That is a fine piece of almost Oriental oratory which would stick in the throat of the ordinary politician. But these are not politicians, which is another tragedy for Greece: they are soldiers and only soldiers. Not one of them has any political experience. This is a gang of military mutineers attempting to run a country which was rapidly becoming a modern, Western European type of State.
A common plea of the present Government in Greece is to say that previously there was corruption. The apologists or supporters of the junta say that there was corruption in the last two, three or four years. Of course there was corruption. But it certainly did not start in the last two, three or four years. Those who say that it started in the last two, three or four years are saying that it did not happen to appear to threaten their interest in the days of Karamanlis and the extreme right wing, because they are supporters of the extreme right wing and this is their way of reacting to the first winds of real democratic change and a new surge of economic development in the country's real interest.
It may be said that when we attack this unprincipled military junta we are "attacking Greece". But we are, of course, doing nothing of the kind. People in Greece were constantly telling us to do everything that we possibly could to use the good offices of our own Government, and to try to impress on international organisations in which Britain is a partner or participant the need to ostracise, discredit and bring down the rebel army junta and to help to bring full
2516
democracy back to Greece again as quickly as possible. The Greek people have a right to an answer and response and action from every democracy, particularly in Europe, and especially from those of us, united with them in defence, as N.A.T.O. claims to be, of the free world and the free, democratic way of life.
We cannot pass over the suppression and subversion of the free Press of Greece and the imprisonment of quite large numbers of decent able, men and women in the journalistic profession—of editors, publishers, and others. Madame Vlachou, a woman of very high principles, who used to run one of the best conservative newspapers in Athens, refuses to publish as long as there is any censorship or as long as this rebel mob is in control. She has been driven near to bankruptcy. The rules which have been laid down for Press censorship constitute a unbelievable story. There is censorship also of the mail, of the theatre, of the cinema—indeed, censorship all round, in every sphere.
In addition, the Army has involved itself so deeply and widely in so many things that it is no longer an effective military force for any serious N.A.T.O. purposes. It is now the Government, the Civil Service, the censorship of the mail, of the newspapers, and so on—it is totally involved in a hundred different unfamiliar activities. If there were a serious N.A.T.O. emergency tomorrow, Greece's forces would be useless to us—much more useless than France was when she was involved so deeply in the Algerian war, with her fleet also involved in support of her armies in Africa.
From the point of view of the people of Greece, it is high time that we took serious note of what has happened in their country and took action as quickly as possible in our own interests as well as in the interests of our allies and the Greek people to undo the already grave damage which has been done.
It is unbelievable the number of ordinary things which Greeks are not now allowed to do. There is an almost total suppression of real freedom. Almost every article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been broken by the rebel junta and is treated with

2517
contempt from day to day. I can give article after article which, on the evidence which is coming in every day about what is happening in Greece, has been flouted and abandoned by the military junta.
If one is visiting anybody in Greece and staying overnight, especially, the resident—one's host or hostess—has to report the fact to the police. I have had experience of this myself. I did not stay in a house at which I had often been a guest, on the night in question, because I did not want to involve those living in it with the police. This is common experience now throughout the country. If people are caught listening to the B.B.C. Greek language programmes to Athens they can be sentenced to from two to four years' imprisonment. In Thessaly and elsewhere such cases are confirmed. There is compulsory church going, as a sop to the church, which is one way of finding one's way to the new Fascist heaven. This is not all. Compulsion is buttressed by the determination of Mr. Kollias to produce what he calls the nearest thing "to a perfect man" in due course in Greece. It is an astonishing vocabulary to use in the middle of a lawless mutiny and revolution. Yet these busy men even found time for other serious work like banning miniskirts and beards.
People must not call the junta a dictatorship. They have been imprisoned for calling it that. To prove, no doubt, that it was not a savage dictatorship, they were put in prison. If people want to go through Yugoslavia, to Austria or the West, they must sign a document that they will not contact any Yugoslav. That would be difficult enough, unless one were very good at dodging the Customs.
There is no mail to Eastern Europe. The universities are being interfered with unbelievably and most deplorably. The civil servants have to attend brain washing classes and have to become exemplary blood donors. One can almost understand that, with a stupid Government of that kind, they are bound to become bloodthirsty in respect of their academics and politicians. It is not surprising that the civil servants give the last drop of their blood in compulsory loyalty to this great Fascist cause—to keep their jobs.
2518
The students have now to wear identity badges. As I have said, there is censorship of the Press, of the mail, of the theatre and of the cinema, all literate activity and culture.
The tragedy is that the junta in Greece cannot let go and survive. It cannot suddenly stop being a so-called Government. It cannot suddenly decide to cancel out the mutiny or suddenly stop being censor, civil service and all the other different things it is doing so clumsily. If it did that, it would be letting go the lion's tail. There is a calm in the streets of Athens. The tourist industry in Athens is very important. Calm, therefore, is enforced and there appears to be acquiescence; helpless calm. But the Fascists cannot let go. This is the danger. Unless they are prised away by force or unbearable pressures from their power, they will not let go voluntarily; I am sure of that. Every new statement which is made, therefore, more and more cancels out all the fine promises of the early days about a new constitution in six months with a referendum and free elections. I have asked the junta leaders repeatedly for dates or estimates as to when the elections would be held. Not one Minister—the Prime Minister or the Minister of the Interior or any other—could give such a date or target. If people put placards on walls, they would be "shot". That is the wonderfully appropriate, terse, precise reply of the military junta in Greece. That was Mr. Pattalcos's own reply at an interview. Equally clearly he answered "Shot!" when asked about giving out leaflets.
Responsible journalists by the dozen have conducted interviews on the spot about the situation in Greece. Hon. Members will have seen during the last week a series of two first-class articles in The Times last week by a first-class team of journalists. They certainly did not exaggerate. They underplayed the situation in their reporting to make it credible in this country that such things could happen in Greece, in a civilised country, among the people who have so long been our respected friends and our allies, and very gallant ones at that, in more than one great war in this century.
To say that if we were to take action we should be interfering in Greek affairs is absolute nonsense. Mr. Cannellopoulos and Mr. Papandreou and his son have

2519
always welcomed the interest of British politicians and of the British generally in the affairs of Greece. So have all reasonable statesmen of all parties in that country. They are glad to see us interesting ourselves, in particular, in their struggle for the enlargement and widening of democracy. The aim of Mr. Papandreou's party and of Andreas Papandreou, in particular, was to bring Greece right into the second half of the twentieth century politically and economically as a modern state. She has a long way to go. Her modern Parliamentary democracy does not go back many years; though one could say that of the full franchise in this country, too. At least, in this country we were given the full free opportunity to develop and expand it and to make it universal and to establish and consolidate it through the years without that sort of disturbance by rebels and mutineers or violence. Greece has been less fortunate.
I could give many evidences of the feelings of the people from the Right wing and the Centre. I am not talking of the Greek Left. Apart from anything else they were in gaol since the coup—and still are—as the noble Lord knows. Every leader of the Left was either on one of the islands or in the concentration camps. It is important for a journalist to get all shades of opinion from the whole political spectrum. The noble Lord should know these things.
Mr. David Winnick: He does not want to know them.
Mr. MacMillan: Some of those of the Right-wing party were also in gaol or under police surveillance in their homes. Many Centre Union M.P.s were also in goal, and many awaiting trial. More of them, indeed, are in prison now, with no charges against them, than when we were there. More Centre Union Members of Parliament are in prison awaiting trial, uncharged, or on spurious charges than were in prison or under detention at the time of the coup.
It is with no pleasure that we have to condemn what has been happening in Greece. There is no excuse on earth for it. There was an electoral and general calm prevailing in Greece in late April, which even the military coup itself, be-
2520
cause of its surprise and suddenness, did not completely disturb, because nobody, least of all at Easter, expected these things, such organised treachery, and because there was no organised, armed resistance on the Centre or Left.
We know why the coup was so successful technically. It is because a N.A.T.O. exercise, planned to take over in national crisis, was used to carry out that undemocratic operation against the Parliament and the people. But we are involved in this, too. The peace of Europe could be involved in issues, which threaten the peace of Cyprus. This is obviously now a greater danger spot in the world than ever. As long as these rebels are there, in power in Athens, it daily becomes increasingly more dangerous.
I hope that Her Majesty's Government and all our allies, at least in N.A.T.O., in the Western Europe organisations, and in Scandinavia, will use every possible pressure to prise these dangerous people out—because the only thing they recognise is power and pressure. Logic and persuasion cannot hope to be used with success. They must be forced to relinquish the illegal power which they seized by mutiny, condoned by people in the Establishment, who are not themselves concerned with democracy in Greece, but only with holding on to their own power in turn.
It is high time that the Greek people were helped to speak again freely for themselves, as they were about to do at the elections of 28th May. If they had been able to do that, there would today be a government of the Centre Union, centred about a hard core of people who had resisted every attempt at their bribery and corruption—honest, intelligent and progressive men. That is the Government that the people would have had. Instead of that, they have the tragedy and humiliation of a military rebel junta of stupid men. The sooner that a proper Government can be established once again the better for the Greek people—and for the peace of the world.
5.33 p.m.
Viscount Lambton: The hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) has spoken with great passion on the subject of Greece. I would like to try to look a little less passionately at it than

2521
he has done, although I would like to begin by saying that I associate myself with many of the remarks and sentiments which he has expressed. Nobody can like seeing the destruction by a military junta of a democratic régime. Nobody, on either side, can like seeing the closure of a free Press or the throwing into prison of a large number of parliamentarians and people who are opposed to the authority in power.
What is of interest, however, is to realise why and how this happened. When the revolution came, it came so totally peaceably that, as far as I know, the only casualty in the whole of that night was the young Mr. Papandreou, who fell out of an attic and cut his leg on an electric installation.
There cannot be a bloodless revolution unless there is considerable assent to it. It is my belief that there was considerable assent to the revolution, because democracy in Greece has ceased to be the ideal democracy which the hon. Member for the Western Isles likes so much to defend and had become very much a corrupt oligarchy.
There were in Greece about 400 Mem13.rs of Parliament, which is roughly equivalent to 2,400 Members of Parliament in this country. I do not think that it is realised exactly what undemocratic advantages those men had. To begin with, they all had £4,000 a year free of tax. They could buy land on which to build their houses at an almost nominal price. Another almost overwhelming advantage was that they could travel free anywhere in the world by any means of Greek transport. Therefore, if a Greek Member of Parliament wished to go to New York and to come back via Tokyo, there was nothing to stop him doing so as long as he could do it by Greek transport.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: Very sensible.
Viscount Lambton: The result of that was that it had ceased to be in any sense a selfless democracy. There was, therefore, an almost total placidity when the take-over occurred.
Mr. John Lee: Is the noble Lord advancing that kind of argument to justify the overthrow of a duly elected Government? Does not the logic of his
2522
argument imply that when the Government in this country raised the salaries of Members of Parliament, he and his hon. Friends should have lead a coup d'etat against them
Viscount Lambton: I was saying what had occurred. I shall not follow the hon. Member's suggestion about how to make a speech, because he makes more dreary speeches in the House than almost anyone else. The last thing to do is to follow his advice. Why he wants to give it is another matter.
I was explaining why there was such a stable takeover. We regret it, but that was why it occurred. That was why it was possible for me and the hon. Member for the Western Isles to walk about Athens and see the military only in certain key positions. That in itself is regrettable. The most regrettable aspect of all was that democracy had so traduced itself that when it was overthrown, hardly anyone cared anything about it.
Mr. Macolm MacMillan: What the noble Lord says is true. I have conceded that it was calm for the obvious reason that unarmed people cannot successfully argue with tanks and guns. They were not ready or armed for violence and they were not violentminded. Had the noble Lord gone on any of the Centre Union tours like the so-called "march of the people" to Thessaly, as I did, with Georges Papandreou, he would have seen hundreds of thousands of people from just outside Athens and all the way up to Salonica, immense crowds of people, using tractors, bicycles, every possible means of transport, giving a tremendous show of feeling and support for the Centre Union Party. There was no violence of any kind, but any amount of political excitement—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Member has made one speech. I should like to remind hon. Members that a large number of Members wish to take part in the debate and I hope that they will be brief.
Viscount Lambton: I am sorry that I cannot answer the question of the hon. Member for the Western Isles, but I do not know what it is.

2523
The other thing that the hon. Member said and which, I thought, was most unfair was that he was not sure that the King was not involved. All the evidence that I saw in Greece persuaded me that the King was not involved.
Mr. Winnick: What about his mother?
Viscount Lambton: To begin with, the King's a.d.c, who was a close friend of his, had his door shot down and was threatened and manhandled by the members of the revolutionary union. There is evidence that when the King went to the military in the middle of the night, he put up many arguments against the take-over by the junta. Although it may seem a contradiction in terms at the present time, I believe that the maintenance of the King in his position offers the best hope of a return to democracy at some future date.
The King has always believed in the democracy and in the holding of elections. If, as I argue, he was not involved in this junta, he therefore remained someone above politics who can be a figurehead and who can bring democracy back. If in two or three years the military junta were to hand back power to an assembly whose numbers were reduced, there is no doubt that the junta would have achieved great and necessary reform.
The real tragedy in Greek life is the payment given to civil servants. They simply are not paid enough money to live adequately. The result is that bribery and corruption are almost inherent in the Greek Civil Service system. If the junta were greatly to upgrade the status and salaries of civil servants, and if within a period of two years it were to make parliamentary reforms and return power to the Assembly, I believe that the junta would have done the country a very great service.
But the doubts which the hon. Gentleman expressed remain. This revolution could easily go the other way and become as authoritarian in Greece as Nasser has become in Egypt. It is a revolution of the colonels and is, in many ways, comparable with the Egyptian one. This is the great danger we must face, because, if it goes that way, if a military junta is established, that will mean the end for a very long time of every sort of liberty in Greece. I agree with the hon. Gentleman
2524
that we should express our hope that the revolution will not take this long-term end, because, if it did, it would be a tragedy for Europe.
I turn now to some other subjects on which it had been my intention to concentrate before the hon. Gentleman introduced the subject of Greece. What struck me whilst listening to the Foreign Secretary was the peculiar and striking lack of idealism about the Middle East now coming from the Government Front Bench. I should have thought that this was the time for the Government to put forward the idea, which has often been expressed by hon. Members opposite, that there should be a moratorium on the sale of arms to the Middle East. I believe that this is the moment when it would be psychologically important and wise to make such a suggestion. We should have to agree to go on completing the military contracts which we have made, but a great opportunity has been missed by the Government in not suggesting a cessation of the supply of arms to both sides. I find it odd, striking and peculiar that no suggestion upon these lines has come from the Front Bench spokesman of a party which always pretends to be dedicated to morality in internationl affairs.
Mr. Stanley Henig: Does the noble Lord recall that some weeks ago my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made just such a suggestion and that we temporarily stopped supplying arms to the Middle East, but that other major Powers, including the Soviet Union, refused to agree to the British Government's suggestion, so if we had carried on it would simply have meant a unilateral suspension by this country?
Viscount Lambton: The Government stopped supplying arms for one day. There has been no major diplomatic initiative on behalf of Her Majesty's Government to suggest that there should be a cessation of the supply of arms. This is a great pity. It is also a pity that hon. Members opposite have not expressed this view at this time.
I wonder why Britain has not taken this step. Is it because the Government have now forgotten the moral road that they used to pretend that they were walking and are not prepared to sacrifice the economic advantages which flow from the

2525
sales of arms to the Middle East? I hope that the Government spokesman will mention this subject in winding up the debate.
Again on the subject of morals, the hon. Member for the Western Isles suggested that we should interfere in Greek domestic affairs. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to say that, but it is rather odd that he should make this suggestion when the Foreign Secretary has just stated that he believes that it would be totally wrong for us to interfere with any affairs in the Yemen. How can hon. Members opposite ever flaunt their morality again when they see gas being dropped in the Yemen? I was in the Yemen this year. What struck me as most appalling about the use of this weapon is that it was used primarily, not against front line soldiers, nor against the men actually fighting the Egyptians, but against their wives and children and old people in villages many hundreds of miles from the conflict.
Mr. Winnick: Is the noble Lord aware that we on this side are as horrified as he is by the use of poison gas, that we have protested, and that we continue to protest? It is remarkable that neither he nor any of his right hon. and hon. Friends have considered it necessary to protest against American action in Vietnam. They have not protested against, for example, the use of napalm. Why not? Why not be consistent and logical?
Viscount Lambton: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Americans have used arms in Vietnam which are a contravention of the Geneva Convention?
Mr. Winnick: Yes. Why not protest against it?
Viscount Lambton: This is a totally different thing.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Has the noble Lord read the Geneval Protocol of 1925?
Viscount Lambton: I have not read art all.
Mr. Winnick: The noble Lord is one sided.
Viscount Lambton: These are farcical interventions. What is the point of trying to justify the use of gas in the Yemen by asking me if I have read a document
2526
of 1925? The point is that in the Yemen now gas is being used against old people, women and children. They are being killed in a brutal and unpleasant way. Is that made any better by the fact that unpleasant weapons are being dropped in Vietnam?
Mr. Winnick: We oppose the use of these weapons in both places.
Viscount Lambton: I am only too glad of that. If so, why does not the Foreign Secretary, representing the Labour Government, bring the matter up at the United Nations, about which the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) has spoken more than almost anybody? I hope that when he speaks later he will suggest that this matter be taken up by his beloved United Nations. On this occasion we want to use the United Nations to prevent a brutal type of war, with Arab killing Arab in the most brutal way imaginable. All we suggest is that the United Nations, which hon. Members opposite always accuse us of hating, should be used as an instrument to stop brutality at this time.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: As the noble Lord is rightly bitterly opposed to the use of poison gas, is he in favour of abolishing our poison gas factory at Porton?
Viscount Lambton: There is no doubt that it was only because Britain in the last war had planes loaded with gas always ready to take off against Germany that we were able to prevent the use of gas against us. Gas as a deterrent is a weapon of considerable value and its possession is the surest way of ensuring that it is not used, as was proved in the last war.
One cannot help thinking that the reason why the Foreign Secretary has not pressed this case, the proof of which is absolutely apparent, is that he basically does not want to offend Egypt. We are going far too far along, the line of doing practically everything to placate Egypt.
I want to bring before the House an individual case which has been drawn to my attention by, a constituent. It concerns an ex-squadron leader of 74, who has lived in Egypt for many years. He suffers from angina pectoris, which

2527
all hon. Members know is one of the most agonising diseases known to medicine. This man was, at the time of the six-day war, seized by the Egyptian police, dragged to their headquarters and interrogated. He was not allowed to call his doctor. He was not allowed to summon the British Consultate to his aid. By the time he was put on a ship at Port Said he was literally at death's door, and only the skill of the doctor on the ship saved him.
I believe that no protest has been made by Her Majesty's Government to the Egyptian Government. If there has been, I would be glad to know what it is. It took a long time for the case even to be acknowledged by the Foreign Office. If we allow our nationals in Egypt to be treated in this way, without any protest from us, we shall not in any way cease to irritate Nasser—he will merely lose the last vestiges of respect he has for us.
I hope that the Government spokesman will say a word or two about an area of which I believe we shall hear a great deal in the future—the adjoining territories of Kenya, Somalia and Ethiopia. Here, especially now the temperature has so risen as a result of the six-day war, there lie all the seeds of a future disastrous war, and a war which could put us in the most difficult of positions.
Speaking very generally, one can say that Kenya has the closest relations with the United Kingdom, that Ethiopia has the closest relations with the United States of America, and that Somalia is, at the moment, to a large extent armed by the Chinese. We therefore have world conflict in preparation there and it would be a conflict that would bring the great Powers up against each other. It was because of the great unsettlement in this area, I think, that we had hoped earlier that there would be some internationalisation of the island of Perim, which lies off Djibouti, because it is unlikely that French Somaliland will continue indefinitely to belong to the French.
It seems a great pity that the Government are not more determined to utilise the United Nations in the right way. As I say, I hope that whoever winds up the debate for the Government tonight will draw the attention of the House to the very dangerous trends existing in this
2528
area. We do not want to he caught as unawares there as, apparently, we were by what occurred in the Middle East.
5.54 p.m.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: We have heard two quite remarkable speches about Greece from hon. Members on either side, and I am quite sure that, whatever else we thought, we had at the back of our minds an immense sadness that this sort of thing should be happening in Greece at all, and a feeling of impotence in having to stand by and watch a democracy, whatever faults it may or may not have had, overthrown by a group, to use a neutral word, of apparent ignoramuses in political affairs, and certainly in international affairs, who may be good soldiers but who certainly know nothing of the government of a country. We all hope that whatever may be done there in the next few weeks, months or even years, the foundations will be already laid for a return of democracy to Greece; and that we in this country will do all we can, within the properties of international affairs, to help that movement on.
We also listened to a most remarkable speech by the Foreign Secretary. Here was a speech which, while dealing with the withdrawal of British forces from various parts of the world, also had a constructive suggestion to make. All the time, the emphasis was on the United Nations. That was a great thing to do, particularly at this juncture, when it is so easy for people to poke fun at the United Nations when they should be poking fun at themselves for not using the machinery of the United Nations, and when there have been occasions on which there have appeared to be legitimate criticisms of the way in which even the United Nations Organisation had used itself in international affairs. I was therefore delighted to hear my right hon. Friend speaking in those terms about the United Nations.
He referred largely to the withdrawal in the next few years of our troops which will take place from many parts of the world, particularly from Asia. I very much approve of the Government's line here. It is quite ridiculous for a Government to allow themselves to be overstretched financially in carrying out tasks they are no longer able to carry out.

2529
We saw a good example of that in France after the First World War; and a pathetic sight was. I hope that we never see it here.
We should withdraw in such a way, and with such consultations with our friends in the areas from which we withdraw, that we help them to adjust themselves to the situation we create. I believe that we are doing that. I congratulate the Government on the way they are to come out of Aden—I know that it is not very popular in all quarters to say that. But I was uneasy until the Government indicated that they intended to give some kind of aid to the peoples of Southern Arabia, should they need it, in the period after our withdrawal.
I was particularly proud of the Government when they suggested that responsibility for Perim should be undertaken by the United Nations—that is, by the world, through the machinery of the United Nations; and when the Foreign Secretary undertook to do everything he could between now and the beginning of next year to see that the United Nations did shoulder that responsibility. Perhaps we may be told later in the debate what steps have been taken at the United Nations to try to persuade other Governments that this should be a world responsibility, and what progress, if any, has been made.
I believe that this "Perim line", if one can use the term, should be increasingly followed in today's world. There are many places of vital importance to the peace of the world, whether for commercial or strategic reasons, which come to mind, and which could very well be subjected to this treatment. One thinks of Suez, Panama, Gibraltar, the Dardanelles, Singapore—perhaps Antarctica, and the whole seabed beyond the Continental Shelf. All these would be very much better under the control of the world than under the control of any one State. I look to the Government, in their sane and civilised approach to foreign affairs, to lay increasing stress on the world aspect, as opposed to the national aspects of the problems.
That brings one fairly easily to the Middle East. I believe there is now a chance, which I confess I did not see before the fighting, perhaps a glimmer of light that there may be a just settlement which could result in a stable peace. But
2530
action will have to be speedy to achieve it. Before the fighting—indeed, it is unfortunately likely to be true for some time afterwards—the Arabs would not recognise the Israeli right to exist. Now, seeing that it is apparent—and I think it is—that the Russians are not prepared to risk a major conflict by supporting the Arabs, and seeing that the Arabs are unlikely to achieve their aims alone in the foreseeable future and—a further "if" I am afraid—if the Israelis behave in a statesmanlike manner, I think there is a chance of a settlement now which would be just to both sides.
If it does not happen quickly the Israelis will remain in possession of their gains and the refugee problem will continue to fester, only more so, and in 10 or 20 years I suppose the whole thing will boil up again with incalculable results for the future of the whole human race. So it behoves us all in the United Nations—this is the only hope in this matter—through its machinery to get on with the matter extremely quickly.
The first necessity is that every Government which believes in the United Nations, as I think this Government do, should urge their friends who are part of the United Nations that the Security Council should take charge of this whole matter of the Middle East as soon as possible. In the Security Council the super-Powers, the great Powers and the other Powers are represented. Nowhere else does that happen. The sooner that the super-Powers and the great Powers realise that they are only just little worms waiting to be trampled on the better, and unless they all act in common in the world sense together they will be trampled on—
Mr. Frank Judd: Would not my hon. and learned Friend agree that one of the tragedies of the recent situation was that the trouble on the Israeli-Syrian Border was discussed as long ago as last autumn in the Security Council and, because it was not discussed seriously enough, somehow the Security Council lost its grip of the problem in the intervening period?
Mr. Mallalieu: I think that is true, but, having had a jolt such as we have all had, I think that quite possibly there is now a chance. No other body but the

2531
Security Council has the necessary authority to be seized of this situation effectively, not even the great super Powers by themselves, unless they were prepared to be seen in public together, so to speak. We know that at least one of them will not be seen in a huddle with the other for fear of what some of its friends or its big enemy might think. Inside the Security Council it is perfectly respectable for them to associate. There they can exercise their admittedly great power beneficently.
It is not for us to make detailed proposals about what the Security Council could or should do. There are so many combinations of suggestions, each of which could bring about the desired result if there were the will in the Security Council to bring it about. I of course would like a very substantial United Nations presence in that part of the world. I draw the attention of the Minister of State who is to reply to the debate to Motion 603, which already has 72 signatures. It advocates the leasing or purchasing of Sinai as a United Nations territory.
I believe this could establish the United Nations in a big way in that part of the world, if it could be negotiated. If it could be negotiated as a result of the influence of the Security Council—and if it acted in unity it could do this—immense benefit would result. It could lead to the development of the land of Sinai. No land is uninhabitable if it has pipelines bringing water, and means of desalination to enable sea water to be used for irrigation. This could make a substantial dent in the problem of refugees and it could keep certain of the contestants apart.
After a just settlement had been negotiated by the Security Council, an effective United Nations presence there would give people confidence in its permanence and render stable the just peace which had been agreed. The essence of the whole matter is that Her Majesty's Government—we have no influence over the others—should urge at once the taking into its lap by the Security Council of the whole problem of the Middle East, that it should take charge of it and use its whole might to bring about a just settlement. I hope that our Government
2532
will urge in the Security Council that this should be done.
6.7 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: I point out to the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) that the suggestions about Perim came from my hon. Friends. He will have an opportunity on Monday, when the Aden Bill comes back from another place with certain Amendments, to support the proposals we put forward.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Of course, I recognise that for the first time so far as I know—and I was delighted to hear it—the Opposition made that suggestion, but the Government said in reply that they did not need the suggestion because it was already incorporated in the Bill and they would try to carry it out.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: Whatever the hon. and learned Member may think about the origin of the suggestion and whatever he is trying to interpolate, he will have the opportunity on Monday to support us on this point.
The situation in Greece has been discussed with great feeling by hon. Members on both sides of the House. It is very difficult to get accurate information about exactly what went on there. It aroused strong feelings in Europe at various meetings which were attended by some Members from both parties. Only two weeks ago I was told that there were lorry-loads of arms introduced from Bulgaria to the north-east of Greece and that probably there would have been a coup about the time of the elections. The Government of the day might have had to suspend the Constitution had the other coup not taken place. One regrets that the military had to step in, and I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will echo the hope that as soon as possible the authorities there may reinstitute a democratic constitution and the home of democracy in Greece may look forward to a democratic future.
Unlike the hon. and learned Member for Brigg, I found the speech by the Foreign Secretary rambling round in the trees. It seemed like an end of term speech about things which should be put on the record. Certain points the Foreign Secretary rightly wished to give publicity to in the House before we rise for the

2533
Summer Recess. I want to look at the wood.
The first six pages of the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1967, which will be debated next Thursday, is, in fact, a foreign policy document. It contains the policy which will decide our role in foreign affairs. I want to discover whether Her Majesty's present advisers seriously believe, having read that White Paper, that the United Kingdom will continue to play its part in defending freedom east of Suez, in honouring its written alliances and in helping to protect the unwritten system of self-help—unwritten in the sense that Commonwealth countries automatically came to help us in 1914 and 1939. All this is omitted from the philosophy contained in the first six pages of that document. It is the first duty of any Government to provide the means to defend the country which it represents, to protect its existence and to help its friends and allies to do the same.
As might have been expected, this debate has concentrated on a number of detailed points. I wish to bring it back to the important question of our foreign policy, which, in turn, sets our defence policy. As one who was brought up in the 'thirties, some of the recent remarks of the Prime Minister have vividly recalled to my mind the line taken by the Labour Party in the 'thirties; the belief in, abcve all, the collective security of the League of Nations—"the sheep against the wolf", as it was sometimes called. The policy of hon. Gentlemen opposite has today been changed in that it is now reliance on the United Nations.
I would be as keen as any hon. Member to rely on the U.N. if it possessed an effective peace force—the sort of force which, for more than 20 years, we have been trying to establish. The hon. and learned Member for Brigg was one of those who helped to establish the World Government Group in this House soon after the last war. I do not think that when we did that we could have believed that, 20 years later, there would not now be an effective peace force to carry out the recommendations and resolutions of the U.N.
In the Near East no effective action is being taken by anybody apart from the United Kingdom. I recall the conference at which Sir Samuel Hoare, as he then
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was, made his speech about the Ethiopian incident, when he said:
"Not a man, not a gun, not a ship was moved by anyone but the British"
In 1956, when Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal against its international obligations, almost no other country was prepared to lend a hand or do anything else. In 1967 the U.N. withdrew what forces it had, precipitately and without proper reference to the General Assembly.
Although we are keen on the U.N., in the state of the world today it is difficult to think that we can rely on it; and so we should not throw away all the resources and will we have on our side. For example, no hon. Member has tried harder than my hon. Friends—and, I admit, a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite—to get something done about the use of gas in the Yemen. The Yemen Relief Committee, which has been in existence for about three years, has been raising this matter for a long time, and it was a considerable time indeed before the International Red Cross took cognisance of it.
My understanding of the Geneva Convention of 1925 is that it contains an obligation on all signatories—this has nothing to do with the U.N.—to take cognisance of matters of this kind and to do something about them at once. The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) challenged my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) about his knowledge of this issue. The Foreign Secretary refused to face this problem in his speech and, in doing so, went back on one of Britain's commitments as a signatory to the 1925 Geneva Convention. My hon. Friends and I have been plugging this matter for a considerable time, and I trust that the Government will finally honour our commitments to this Convention.
At present it seems that the U.N. is no more willing to do anything about it than the League of Nations was about the use of gas in Ethiopia by the Fascists 30 years ago. I trust that the Under-Secretary will look up the Geneva Convention and see just what are our obligations under it.
The Prime Minister has raised a number of doubts in my mind following some of his recent Parliamentary Answers. On

2535
13th July, answering my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish), he said:
"… we cannot achieve economic viability and stability on the scale we want still less the social service result, unless we cut our defence costs to the resources available".
That, apparently, is the right hon. Gentleman's policy. It is a popular policy today. It was an extremely popular policy 30 years ago. The Socialists maintained that policy through the 'thirties and right up to 1939—even the Fulham by-election, which a number of hon. Members will recall. At that time I was serving abroad. We were aghast at the fact that the people in Britain, seeing what was happening in Europe, could swing over to that extent. We see the same sort of policy being enunciated today. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) said after the Prime Minister gave that reply:
"Is not this a rare and refreshing example of a Minister blurting out the unvarnished truth?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th July, 1967; Vol. 232, c. 1003.]
Meanwhile, replying to a Question on 18th July, when my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) asked:
"Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that there has been no change in policy about giving assistance to Commonwealth countries since the Labour Government came to power?"
the Prime Minister replied:
"There has been no change of policy in this matter. Each case has to be considered on its merits, as has always been the case …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th July, 1967; Vol. 750. c. 1711.]
I do not think that it was always the case. Nor do I believe that these two points can be reconciled, because if we are to run down the forces to the point envisaged in the White Paper, in both materials and for the purposes shown in the first six pages of that document, I do not believe that we will be in a position to support our friends in the Commonwealth in the way we have supported them in the past. I have challenged Ministers on a number of occasions in recent months to deny that they have changed this policy, particularly in the face of their having refused to give a defence agreement to Aden.
I am certain that that was the policy of the post-war Labour Government of
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Lord Attlee and Ernest Bevin, when the Commonwealth was regarded as a mutual defence organisation, just as it had been regarded in 1914 and 1939. I therefore hope that the Under-Secretary will make this point clear, particularly since I do not believe that the circumstances today are as clear-cut as they were between 1945 and 1951.
I suggest that Her Majesty's Government are going much too far in the other direction in being prepared to opt out of virtually all our Commonwealth responsibilities, beyond N.A.T.O. I do not see any reason why we should not play our part east of Suez and, at the same time, become a closer and stronger European Power. It is within the resources of this country, while keeping our defence costs to within 6 per cent. or 7 per cent. of the gross national product—and within a growing national product, which we had under the last Tory Administration—to devote this amount to our defence.
It is extraordinary to observe, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) pointed out, that the run-down of troops envisaged in the White Paper is about equal to the increase in civil servants since the Labour Party came to power. There is widespread fear that the present cuts will render our remaining forces outside Europe largely ineffective and unable to carry out our commitments under C.E.N.T.O., S.E.A.T.O., and the Anglo-Malaysian Agreement, as it is now known. We can expect very little help from Western Europe, as those of us who attend meetings of Western European Union appreciate. Like the U.N., we will go on passing resolutions and making recommendations there, but in the end we will have to rely on the United States and ourselves to do something about it.
Can we be told whether, faced with the power vacuum that is appearing East of Suez, the countries of W.E.U. are showing any signs of doing anything practical about guarding their flanks outside the immediate land mass of Europe? The only honest conclusion to be drawn was drawn by the majority of the Press yesterday, when they pointed out that the Government have decided their policy outside Europe for reasons of domestic vote-winning along three lines. The first is to opt out of playing an effective part

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in defending our alliances, our Commonwealth interests and our friends outside Europe by the mid-1970s. I join with my hon. Friends in deploring the setting of these dates in this way. The only omission is the omission of talking about the Persian Gulf. That is at least one reason for hoping that the Government may be facing up to realities.
The second line of their policy is to refuse to support the United States outside N.A.T.O. The United States are fighting an unpopular and rough war in Vietnam, thereby giving hope to the Governments and peoples in Asia that someone will help them against the Chinese. Let us consider Tibet, and India in 1962, and Burma and Indonesia today. In 1954 I visited most of those countries and every head of State or of Government said, "Who is going to help us against Chinese expansionism"? My information is that what is happening in Vietnam, despite what we are told particularly from the benches opposite, is giving heart to those who are prepared to stand up against Chinese aggression.
Mr. Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman knows that when the war ends in Vietnam the Americans are fully committed to withdrawing. Is his policy to be on the mainland of Asia without the Americans?
Mr. Dodds-Parker: No. Nobody has ever said that. If the hon. Gentleman heard the speech of my right hon. Friend he will, no doubt, be in agreement with his remarks, which were also made at our Party Conference last year, that what we want to do eventually is to strengthen the non-European, non-American and non-Australian aspects and supporters of S.E.A.T.O. but not have commitments on land. That was made quite clear. Once the Vietnam war is over we hope that we can withdraw from our land commitments. But that does not mean that we shall withdraw early or entirely. The Government have said:
"We are therefore planning to maintain the military capability for use, if required, in the area, even when we no longer have forces permanently based there."
Those words appear in paragraph 9 of the Statement on Defence Policy, Cmnd. 3357.
Mr. Mayhew: Is the hon. Member saying that we should withdraw from the mainland of Asia, including from Singapore?
Mr. Dodds-Parker: We shall have base facilities there. We shall work these up, although I think we all agree that we hope to be able to reduce substantially the land forces) which are needed to sustain the alliances there. But we shall do this with agreement with our allies and particularly with our Commonwealth friends.
The third line of policy which I believe the Government have decided upon is to continue to pay lip service to S.E.A.T.O. and CENTO, but running down these facilities prematurely and cutting the arms in the plan which is vaguely defined in the White Paper—according to the Press, deliberately trying to fool their own left wing. It is really stupid not to be more definite about it, where one can be definite. To set a date in the mid 1970s and to start up problems such as we have seen in Aden is doing far more harm than good.
I believe that the result of this White Paper, and the purpose, or lack of purpose, set out in it, will be to make it much harder for any successor Government to undertake or rebuild the responsibilities which we have always held as members of these alliances and of the Commonwealth. Now that Russia is in effect established at one end of the Indian Ocean, the result which will follow from this policy will be to give the best chance for China in the next few years to establish herself at the other end by the mid-1970s'. I am sure that the Under-Secretary when he replies will not claim that this is for the benefit of peace and prosperity in that part of the world.
While talking about Russia and Communist China, I see no reason why by the mid-1970s, with the death of Mao, Russia and China should not come together again. We used to hear, when Tito had his quarrel with Russia, that it was all over between them, but their relationship was re-established especially after the death of Stalin.
On China itself, I support, as I am sure we all do, what the Foreign Secretary said in regretting attacks on Her Majesty's representatives not only in Peking and Shanghai but also in Macao

2539
where the consul general stood up most nobly to the uncivilised and disgraceful attack. We support the Foreign Secretary's remarks about the patience of the Foreign Service officers there, and in the Middle East, too, where they have had a very rough time. It will destroy the basis of relationships between the Governments if this sort of behaviour is meted out to the representatives of the various countries, who are striving their utmost to keep good relations going.
On Hong Kong, I support what the right hon. Gentleman said about the Government there who have acted with the greatest restraint and patience in the face of the gravest provocation. I am glad to hear that Her Majesty's Government are going to defend Hong Kong. I am also glad that it is intended to clear up some of the so-called trade unions and banks which have been citadels of illicit arms and subversive organisatons.
Britain has got to be patient. There is little more that we can do at the moment. It may take some time before China's extraordinary gyrations between the Maoists and anti-Maoists die out and she returns to a more co-operative frame of mind not only internally but also outside. Reports that one hears from recent visitors to China describe activities which I find quite incredible among those who are members of what is, after all, one of the oldest civilisations in the world.
To come back to the foreign policy element of the White Paper, I think that in the Far East, as elsewhere, we can imagine the discussions which are going on in Commonwealth and other allied Cabinet rooms at the moment about the contents of this document, seeing as they do that in this most disturbed state of the world as it is today, Britain is apparently opting out and is going to withdraw prematurely, certainly in the views of those who are more closely involved—the authorities in Kuala Lumpur, Australia, New Zealand and our other friends in the Far East.
I think that of all documents which have been produced in the last 1,000 days none is more disastrous, and will be so regarded as time goes on, as this White Paper. Wrong actions, misleading assurances and counter-assurances for the past three years appear to be a deliberate betrayal of so much that this country
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stood for in the past, in helping others to help themselves, by premature withdrawal especially round the Indian Ocean. The Foreign Secretary, I understand, is a supporter of the late Mr. Bevin's patriotic policies, as I am. I beg him to try to follow those policies in supporting our Commonwealth friends and in honouring our alliances.
6.27 p.m.
Mr. Alan Lee Williams: I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on his speech, and particularly on the manner in which he made that speech. The more I hear my right hon. Friend speak the more he appears to me to grow in stature and to grasp the problems with which he is forced to deal. One is grateful for having a Foreign Secretary of his stature. Nevertheless, there are one or two questions which were not touched upon in sufficient depth this afternoon. It is quite impossible for the Foreign Secretary in a speech of half an hour or so to be able to deal in detail with all points of foreign policy. I take it that the purpose of this afternoon's debate is to allow others to touch more specifically on one area instead of attempting to telescope the whole of these aspects into one speech.
I wish to refer to South-East Asia. When this House discusses South-East Asia we are concerned mainly with Vietnam. Whilst, no doubt, there are other hon. Members who will be speaking about that, I wish to speak about the overall situation in South-East Asia and Britain's future policy in this area. I take the view that South-East Asia in the next 10 years will be the most acute area in the world. The future peace and stability of the world will depend upon the sort of policy which the Western Powers have in relation to South-East Asia.
I am convinced that, in any agonising reappraisal of Britain's military contributions, there should be no complete withdrawal from Singapore. Because of the economic arguments, which are certainly impressive, there will have to be a strict division of labour in that area. I am of opinion—this is one of the reasons why I favour going into Europe—that Europe is not playing its part in the defence of Western interests. Indeed, in areas where we give military protection, France, Germany and other European countries have

2541
vastly increased their investment since the post-war decade, without any of the responsibilities. I hold the rather unorthodox belief that it is possible for us to withdraw troops from Germany, and even to withdraw, eventually, I hope, from our Persian Gulf commitments, but not to withdraw from South-East Asia. I do not suppose that many accept that view, but I have come to it because I believe that South-East Asia represents the threat in the next ten years, because of China.
Admittedly, no one can be certain what China will do in the next ten years, but, if present statements are anything to go by, there are sufficient warning signs for us at least to consider a balance of power against China. Some hon. Members say that China is not susceptible to a balance of power. I do not accept that view. China is no different from any other Power in this respect. In the postwar period, the Soviet Union was subjected to a balance of power, which has worked to her advantage as well as to ours. The same is true of China.
What sort of balance of power should it be, and where should we draw the line? It is easy to say that the line drawn in Vietnam is the wrong one. People say this because the battle is tricky and difficult. I believe that a balance of power in which the local forces themselves eventually play a major part must be built up, and it must be built up with Western support. This is why it is so important that we have mobile forces which can get to South-East Asia quickly. At the same time, we have to have bases there. We cannot take troops and sophisticated equipment out by R.A.F. Transport Command to do an effective job, to stop the outbreak of war, not to go when war has broken out, for that would destroy the whole purpose of the exercise. We must have sufficient power to deter any precipitate action.
This is why I am concerned about the references in the White Paper to a drastic run-down in Singapore. Where I differ from hon. Members opposite is in not believing that it is possible for Britain alone to undertake all the commitments which we have at present. In S.E.A.T.O., CENTO and N.A.T.O., we are members of every major alliance and we make a military contribution in
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respect of each. We cannot go on doing that, but we can specialise. In South-East Asia we are as much trusted as any Power, and more than most. Another good reason is that, if we do withdraw from Singapore in the middle 1970s, almost certainly—I say this with respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew)—the Americans will be forced to underpin the situation in the vacuum which we shall create. If that be so, would anyone be happy with the idea that the United States should underpin every Asian balance, so subjecting us to the grave risks of the vagaries of American politics?
In my view, we should have a hard look at the relationship of our own contribution to the Western Alliance in South-East Asia in order to work out whether we can create an effective balance of power. I do not believe that this, in itself, will upset the Russians too much. Quite the contrary. The Russians have the same interest as the United States and ourselves in stability, and so far as one can see, they are as apprehensive about China as we are. I believe, therefore, that we could involve the Russians in this balance of power. Already, to a certain extent, the Soviet Union has relations with India which have given the impression to most foreign affairs commentators that there are, perhaps, some hidden protocols or an agreement with India should China decide to attack India. The Russian influence could possibly work in this balance of power.
I do not agree with what I understand to be the conclusion of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) when he tried to relate—perhaps he was telescoping his argument and I am not doing justice to it—Russia's designs and China's designs all in one view. We must make a sharp distinction between Chinese foreign policy and Russian foreign policy. This is why I favour a reduction of forces in Europe, believing that there is no likelihood of war there, and no prospect of it because of the stabilised foreign policy of the Soviet Union. But this is not true of China.
I hope that, as a result of the agonising reappraisal of defence brought on by the cost of an overall defence strategy, one of the lessons we shall learn is that

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we must not withdraw into an isolationist stance in Europe. Although it will be tempting to do so, it would be utterly disastrous, and a policy which I should find very difficult to support. I hope that the Government will still take the view that we have an important world role within the United Nations and also in a balance of power in South-East Asia which can lead to peace throughout the world and to the containment of China so that she can develop along peaceful lines, to the benefit of mankind as a whole.
6.36 p.m.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I am happy to follow the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Alan Lee Williams), as his views are much more in keeping with those expressed on this side than on his own. In the vernacular, I say to him, "Welcome aboard". We are glad that he has been able to join us in these matters.
There has seldom been a time when her Majesty's Ministers have enjoyed so little respect in the capitals of the world. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sorry to say that, but I believe it to be true. We have seen our diplomats assaulted in Peking. Her Majesty's Ministers have protested but their protests have been ignored. One of our citizens was seized recently in Algeria. Ministers have protested, but they have been ignored. A British national, Mr. Brooke, has been detained in the Soviet Union for a long time. Quite rightly, the British Government have protested, but Mr. Brooke is still in detention. Recently, we had the strange case of the High Commissioner of Zambia who described this country as a humbled and toothless bulldog. His Foreign Minister repeated it. His President went to Peking and said something even more damaging. The British chargé d'affaires walked out of the banquet at which these insults were made, and the Foreign Secretary, quite rightly, in reply to a Question said that he entirely approved the action of our chargé d'affaires But only three days later we learned that Mr. Simbule was to be presented to the Queen as the new High Commissioner.
These are, perhaps, superficial aspects of the situation, but they say a good deal
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about the decline of our Government's voice in the affairs of the world.
Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: What is the Hon Gentleman's impression of our standing immediately after Suez?
Mr. Griffiths: A great deal higher. I turn now to the more fundamental matter of our standing in the great centres of world power today.
Let us consider, for example, the recent events in the Middle East, and particularly the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home). He put directly to the Foreign Secretary the question of what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking on the question of gas bombing in the Yemen. The Foreign Secretary studiously ignored him. Later, pressed by another hon. Member, he gave a grossly unsatisfactory reply. His attitude is precisely that of the Pharisee who, seeing a man lying wounded in the gutter, passed by on the other side of the road. That is not exactly the stand I like to see a British Foreign Secretary adopt.
One of the great centres of power is the Soviet Union. The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have rightly paid a number of visits to Moscow. Recently, Mr. Kosygin flew to America to discuss world affairs with President Johnson. He did not stop in London on his way there or on his way back to Moscow. Surely there is a tale there.
In Europe, too, we have had many journeys by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, to the capitals of the Common Market countries. We even had the Foreign Secretary telling us that General de Gaulle did not dare to keep us out of the Common Market. But I can see little progress that has so far been made. I wish to see us in the Common Market, but so far the momentum of which the Prime Minister spoke has achieved very little.
I intend to speak now on one subject only—our relations with the United States. I am a pro-European, but I would never wish to see us join an anti-American Europe, because I believe that the United States is our military shield, our firmest political ally and, in human terms, probably our best and closest friend. I say this partly on personal

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grounds, having lived in that country for many years, but mainly on a cool assessment of our country's best interests, whether economic, political or military.
There is a basic interdependence, a fundamental chemical affinity, between our Britain and America. But I am deeply worried about the present state of our relations with America. Beyond all the hearty handshakes and the toasts at the Anglo-American dinners, the harsh truth at the moment is that our Government's handling of foreign affairs has placed the Anglo-American relationship at risk. I am not speaking of the special relationship of the British and American peoples. That will continue and prosper, because it is founded not only on the same language, the same set of values, the same sense of humour, but on a joint belief in individual freedom and justice under the law.
Yet, if the people-to-people relationship will and must endure there is at present a marked cooling between the two Governments. To put it bluntly and perhaps over-simply, many Americans no longer feel sure that they can rely on the present British Government as a partner in their world strategy. I could give a great deal of chapter and verse to support this, but I wish to be brief and I shall go on simply to look at some of the reasons why I believe that this is happening.
The first reason is change in America itself. The enormous growth in American power is creating a disparity between their strength and ours which is now immense. Another aspect is America's involvement in areas where we no longer are directly concerned—in Vietnam and Latin America, and in their negro problem at home. We cannot influence these things very much.
But there are several other areas where it is British Government action, or lack of it, which has mainly been responsible for the weakening of relations that I now detect. One aspect is the collapse of the Government's economic policies. The faltering of our economy is holding back our diplomacy at every level of foreign affairs. I remember Ernest Bevin's statement—I think I quote him correctly" Give me an extra 1 million tons of coal and I will lead Europe".
An Hon. Member: Thirty million tons.
Mr. Griffiths: I am grateful.
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He said this, making very good sense, during the post-war period. I am sure that the Foreign Secretary today must feel, "Give me an extra 3 or 4 per cent. production and I too will make our mark". The fact is that the right hon. Gentleman has not got the production, and therefore he is not so able to make his mark. His policy—our policy—in the world is held back by the lack of economic vitality. The Americans have not failed to notice this.
The second reason why I believe that there is a derioration in the relations between ourselves and Washington is that we have not been successful in the grand design to enter Europe. I hope that we shall be, but so far we are not. Since President Kennedy, the Americans have hoped and believed that Britain would serve as the hinge on which the narrow Europe of the Treaty of Rome would swing open into a much wider conception looking towards the Atlantic and the whole wide world. But this is not happening. So far, British diplomacy has not succeeded in bringing it about. Once again, the American Government have not failed to notice.
The third factor is that we have gone back on too many undertakings. I shall not refer, because it would be simply party political, to the question of the E.F.T.A. surcharge, our attempt to get out of the Concord project and E.L.D.O., the whole question of whether or not we gave a defence pledge to Aden. I simply wish to stress the American and Australian reaction to yesterday's White Paper. Looked at from Washington and Canberra, it seems incomprehensible that a nation which spends about £1,000 million a year on gambling and more than that on smoking, which has taken on about 40,000 new civil servants at the national level and another 150,000 at the local level, cannot keep another 30,000 of its men in uniform. It is incomprehensible to America, with its half million men in Vietnam, and to Australia, making the effort she is now at last beginning to make, that Britain no longer is able or willing to do its duty in the world.
Mr. Edwin Brooks: Would the hon. Gentleman give the figures of the proportion of the Australian gross national product devoted to defence compared to that in this country?
Mr. Griffiths: I was very careful to say that the Australians were at long last beginning to carry their share. I am well aware of the hon. Gentleman's point, which I accept.
The attitude one meets among people who think on these things in the United States is that there always was a possibility that Britain would no longer be able to carry on east of Suez. But I do not believe that responsible opinion in America expected that the pull-out—or, as I prefer to call it, the scuttle—would come so soon. Of course, the Americans are outwardly polite, Mr. Dean Rusk is always polite, but Congressmen and senior officials are not so polite.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: Would the hon. Gentleman consider it polite, as reported in today's newspapers, that the bombing of Vietnam is now hurting? The hon. Gentleman is beginning to sound as though he were a United States Congressman sitting here.
Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Lady does not sound like any Congressman I have ever heard of. She sounds—well, I had better not say.
What they say, behind the kind words, is that Britain is now beginning to settle for a little England policy, a policy of, "Give in and give up and get out." This process has, I believe, been going on for some time. There is something to be said occasionally for seeing ourselves as others see us—and looking at it from the point of view of Washington, I think the process started with the morality mincing attempt of the Prime Minister to dissociate Britain from the bombing of Haiphong. He has forgotten that now, but the hon. Lady has not. Since then the policy has developed with the decision to scrap the aircraft carrier, and beyond that it deteriorated again with the decision to get out of Aden. Now there is the White Paper.
I accept that the White Paper says that we shall keep some of our commitments in the Far East. I am very glad of that. But there is little evidence in the White Paper that we shall have the men or the ships and the aircraft with which to carry out these commitments. Once again the Government will the end but they do not will the means.
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I predict that out of this latest White Paper and the escalation to which I have referred there will be not a parting of the ways with America—not at all—but a break in the continuity of the Anglo-American alliance. This has rested for a long time on an implicit bargain in which the United States provided the nuclear protection to the Western world and contained China. But the other side of the bargain was the implicit understanding that Britain would maintain a presence, a useful if modest presence, in the Indian Ocean and South-East Asia. It is from this tacit understanding that Britain now appears to be contracting out. I suggest we shall regret it.
I have left carefully to the end a special feature of the deterioration of our relations with Washington, and that is the decline in confidence between British and American Ministers. The President evidently likes the Foreign Secretary. I do not blame him; he finds the Foreign Secretary amusing. However, I believe the Prime Minister continues to claim an intimacy and consequence in Washington which he no longer possesses. Once again, I could give many examples, but I do not do so because I wish not to be provocative. However, the Prime Minister's standing, and with it that of the British Government, has taken a tumble in America. It has done so for many reasons but most of all because there has been a tendency for the British Government to make many vainglorious pontifications without having the power to carry out the policies they set out before us.
This we see again in the White Paper. There is a cutting of British power but a continuation of British oratory. If we wish to stay in that close relationship with America which I believe to be fundamental to world peace and to our prosperity, we must speak with power. Theodore Roosevelt had an interesting maxim: "Talk quietly and carry a big stick". The charge that I make against the foreign policy of the British Government is that they have whittled away the stick while shouting at the top of their voices.
6.54 p.m.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I will not follow the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths).

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He seems to think exclusively in terms of military power. I believe that our national prestige stands very high precisely because the Foreign Secretary makes the kind of speech that he made this afternoon.
Like every other hon. Member, I have been disturbed by many aspects of the still unfinished Israeli-Arab war. But what has most alarmed me has been the fact that many people seem to treat it as an isolated, almost ephemeral, event. They say "There was a war, as in 1947 and 1956. It was quickly over. It could have been much worse. We must devise some new a better measures, a scheme for refugees, a ban on arms sales"—how easy to say, but how hard to do—the right of passage for all ships through the international seaways.
The Foreign Secretary went to the General Assembly, and in his speech, he spoke of the Israel-Arab war and of nothing else. He proposed the special Middle East measures of which I have spoken. But, alas, the Israel-Arab war is not an isolated event. It has been part of a long process of mounting international anarchy. It was one more in a series of armed conflicts, in all the Continents, most of which are a special menace to Britain and the Commonwealth, conflicts which may easily erupt into a wider and perhaps a world-wide conflagration. It was a milestone on a road on which the world has travelled far too far.
The most important of the other wars is that now raging in Vietnam. Month by month the fighting still grows fiercer, the use of weapons more unrestrained, the devastation of the countryside more total. It began as a civil war, Vietnamese against other Vietnamese. Now it is almost wholly the United States against Vietnam. Not long ago the New York Times reported that 18 per cent. of Air Vice Marshall Ky's forces deserted during 1966. It said that of his ten divisions, five were "combat-ineffective", two were "marginal" and only three were thought by the United States High Command to be tit for battle. A month ago I talked in Geneva with a young Swiss journalist who had been for years in Vietnam and who talked the language. He told me that the Arvin, Air Vice Marshall Ky's forces, were almost everywhere on excellent
2550
terms with the Vietcong, that they kept each other informed about their movements, that they never fired to kill, and that the Arvin even made it easy for the Vietcong to levy tolls on lorries bringing up Arvin supplies.
While the great mass of the people in Vietnam only long for peace and order, and the Arvin have in great degree opted out of the war, the United States forces are far more deeply committed than ever before. The Commander-in-Chief, General Westmoreland, is bombing both North and South Vietnam around the clock at the rate of 3,000 1b. of high explosive per minute. There has never been anything like it in aerial war before.
General Westmoreland has explained his plan as follows:
"We'll just go on bleeding them until Hanoi wake up to the fact that they have bled their country to the point of national disaster for several generations. Then they will have to reassess their position."
So the general looks to military victory to bring a settlement and means to win it by a merciless air bombardment which, on his own description, comes not far short of genocide.
He is using weapons which up to Hitler's war were recognised to be forbidden by international law. Fire was one of them. In 1933 Sir Anthony Eden put in his draft disarmament convention in Geneva a clause which laid down "as an established rule of international law" that no incendiary weapons of any kind should ever be used. Napalm is an appalling weapon. To use it systematically to burn defenceless villages would have revolted Europe before 1939, and it utterly revolts Asia and Africa today. So does General Westmoreland's use of poison gas. The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) denounces Nasser's use of mustard gas in the Yemen. So do I. I was present at the first gas attack in April, 1915, and since then I have always thought that all the gases should be banned. Ten years later, I was at the conference in Geneva when that was done. The Treaty said:
"The use in war of asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and of all analogous liquids, materials or devices shall be prohibited."
There was nothing in that Treaty to the effect that only poisons which killed humans should be banned, that poisons

2551
which kill the food on which humans live should be allowed.
We often talked then about the possibility that some day poisons against crops might be devised. Of course, they were intended to be covered by that clause which I have read out. Of course, the Asians think that gases which sterilise their forests for 50 years, which destroy the crops by which the people live, are quite as much a crime against humanity as Nasser's mustard in the Yemen—and, of course, these Vietnam gases kill far more people. The Vietcong get their rations. They have to fight. It is the children and the aged who will die.
Hon. Members opposite will say, as my right hon. Friend said this afternoop, that the war could stop tomorrow, if only the Hanoi Government would accept President Johnson's generous offer in his letter to Ho Chi Minh earlier this year. The President offered to stop the bombing of the North and to have a conference, if only Hanoi would take reciprocal action, and would stop sending soldiers and supplies to the Vietcong in the South.
Since that offer was made, I have had the chance to dicuss it with spokesmen of the N.L.F. and other South Vietnamese. They were eloquent about reciprocity—saying, "Let the Americans promise not to bomb Vietnam and we will promise not to bomb the United States." Let hon. Members ask themselves what the President's letter really meant. What would happen if the North cut off all supplies, especially the supplies of food, to the South, with its crops destroyed, with its villages ravaged? The N.L.F. would soon be starved into submission.
With the best will in the world, the N.L.F. spokesmen thought that they were being cheated, as they think they have been cheated so many times since 1945. They think that the letter was not an offer of peace, but a call for unconditional surrender; the so-called offer of peace was intended to cover up the escalation which was shortly to begin.
Of course, to them the American action is an intervention in a civil war for which President Johnson never obtained the sanction and approval of the United Nations. They accept the view of eminent American jurists whom I have
2552
quoted here before, and who say that this intervention in a civil war without United Nations approval "tears the very heart out of the Charter".
Hon. Members opposite denounce Nasser for sending forces to the Yemen. So do I. But, of course, Nasser could claim that it is an Arab party, that they are all of the same colour and race. Nonetheless, he did intervene in a civil war without United Nations approval; and it was a flagrant violation of the Charter. But I believe profoundly that he only dared to do it because the Americans had done it already in Vietnam. The United Nations could do nothing, because it had done nothing in Vietnam. So, by a kind of Gresham's law, acts of violence spread around the world.
Earlier this year, I raised in a Question to the Foreign Office the information I had received that Tshombe was organising mercenaries in Angola to invade the Congo and detach Katanga as a separate State. To my regret, nothing was done to take the matter to the Security Council, and to expose Tshombe's traitorous and charter-breaking plans, or to expose the responsibility of the Portuguese. Four months later, the invasion happened, and the troubles are still not at an end.
We are face to face with an even more dangerous confrontation, an even more dangerous use of force, in Nigeria. Last week, a Biafran friend of mine, whom I have known for a long time and in whom I have great confidence, told me that his leaders and his people only want peace and order. They will accept economic co-operation with the other regions, a common currency confederation—whatever is needed for the joint prosperity of Nigeria as a whole. But they say that, if General Gowon insists on fighting, then the war will be long and very bloody. Biafra can get arms, as anyone can to day; and if their Army is beaten the Ibo men and women will fight on as guerillas until the Northerners go home.
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is listening, and I venture to express the hope that our Government will not furnish arms to General Gowon. I hope that they will seek some means to prevent this blood bath in Nigeria, if it can possibly be done.

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Britain is faced with other confrontations, to which my right hon. Friend referred—in Aden, where the dangers are not growing less; in Hong Kong, where they are likely to grow greater, since the Peking Government think that we are allowing the United States to use it as a naval and military base. Thailand is now a full belligerent and may well expect a long guerrilla war of its own.
In South America, the C.I.A. has so thwarted the liberal and social-democratic forces that thousands of young people think that Communist guerrilla force is now the only hope of social progress. That deadly doctrine has spread to Africa as well. Perhaps hon. Members read in the Sunday Times of the guerrilla leader, a Ph.D. from Harvard, who now holds one-seventh of Mozambique and rules 1 million of its 7 million population. He, like the C.I.A., preaches the deadly doctrine of naked force as the instrument for human progress.
It is this long catalogue of wars and confrontations which made the Canadian Secretary of State, Mr. Paul Martin, say in the General Assembly a month ago:
"The incidence of violence in the world has already reached the limits of international tolerance. The stakes are simply too great, the dangers too obvious, for the international community, and the great Powers in particular, to let matters drift."
To Mr. Martin, all the events of which I have spoken are part of one great world problem, which needs a world solution by world action through the institutions of the United Nations.
What kind of action? There are two main causes of the present troubles.
First, the world is much too full of arms. Everyone agrees that the arms race was a major cause of the Israel-Arab war. The arms race between the larger powers is growing ever more intense. It is spreading to Continents which were previously immune. Two-thirds of our fellow human beings still live in poverty and hunger. Yet the under-developed countries, countries receiving technical assistance and economic aid, have spent £3,000 million on sophisticated arms in the last 10 years. If that vast sum had been spent on developing their natural resources long steps to ending world hunger would already have been made.
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Secondly, the lawless use of force has been allowed to replace the legal obligations of the U.N. Charter as the guiding rule in international affairs. In his speech to the General Assembly a month ago, speaking of the settlement of the Israel-Arab war, the Foreign Secretary said that Article 2(4) of the Charter must be the basic principle on which all the Governments should act. He cited its terms:
"All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or the political independence of any state."
That is the true foundation of the whole fabric of the U.N. If it is law—and unless it is law it is nothing—it must be observed in every case where force is used or threatened.
Think back across the last decade starting from Suez and Hungary, going on to Laos, the Bay of Pigs, Santo Domingo, Vietnam, and others. One cannot say, "In the Israel-Arab settlement we must apply the law, but in Vietnam or the Dominican Republic we cannot be legalistic; we must be pragmatic; we must find another way".
If we are to solve the great world problem of anarchy and violence, of which Paul Martin spoke, we must find some means to end the Vietnam war. It is the great decisive issue in the world today. We must curb the arms race and start the real disarmament of which we have talked so long. We must revalidate the binding power of the Charter clauses about the use of force.
I believe that it was to start on this great task that Mr. Kosygin called the Special Session of the General Assembly a month ago. Before he went there, after his first talk with President de Gaulle, he said that his purpose was real and lasting peace, not only for Israel and the Arabs; but for Vietnam and for the world. He said it in his speech in the Assembly, very loud and clear. He said it when he got back to Moscow. He said that he did not believe that two-Power agreements could end the troubles of the world; he believed only in settlements reached in the U.N. with the concurrence of all the nations of mankind.
Who is to lead? Who is to mastermind the mighty effort that is needed to solve Paul Martin's great world problem

2555
and to ensure the survival of mankind? Russia cannot do it, as Mr. Kosygin found a month ago. The U.S. do not seem disposed to, and, perhaps, now they could not, even if they tried. There is one force still left in world affairs, which may be perishing, and which will surely perish if it is left to rust unused, but which, in the General Assembly, might have enormous political and moral power. I mean, of course, the Commonwealth of Nations, of which Britain is still the leader.
I hope some day to convince my right hon. Friends, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, of the great efficacy of sustained and genuine international debate if the responsible senior Ministers take a personal part and if it is used as men like Arthur Balfour, Robert Cecil, Arthur Henderson, Austen Chamberlain, and Ernest Bevin used it in times gone by.
I make a practical proposal which I hope my right hon. Friends will reflect on when this debate is ended. I believe that the Government would do well to summon a meeting of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers and Foreign Secretarys just before the U.N. General Assembly in September. The meeting should consider Paul Martin's problem in great depth. The Ministers, including the Prime Ministers, should go on to the Assembly to represent their nations and should stay there as long as might be required. They should so lead the debate in the Plenary, and in Committee, that guide lines for action could be agreed. On Vietnam, the Foreign Secretary's speech of last October might still achieve agreement; on Israel his speech a month ago might do the same.
I will not expand my proposal, for other hon. Members wish to speak. I end by saying to my right hon. Friends, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, two things on which I hope that they will reflect. I speak from a long experience of international failures and success. First, international institutions have immense authority when senior Ministers take part; often they achieve what seems impossible when they start. Secondly, my right hon. Friends now have an opportunity for leadership in our distracted world. If they miss it, they will regret it all their lives.
7.17 p.m.
Mr. James Davidson: I must pay tribute to the splendid speech made by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker), which I cannot possibly hope to emulate. However, I feel very much at one with most of the opinions which he has expressed, if I may make that rather humble observation following what he had to say.
Recent developments in the Middle East have certainly demonstrated the dangers to world peace which still exist. One thing that has been proved is that the cold war, which many of us thought was disappearing, is by no means over. I do not wish to go in any great depth into recent events in the Middle East, which to some extent are still sub judice, but if Britain is to have any real influence in the world and on international events, it will have to be through Europe and through the United Nations and not through summit talks and special relationships, however important these may be in some respects.
It would appear from the course of the debate that many hon. Members think that we can still exert tremendous influence on the balance of power and in protection of our interests. Most of the speeches have been somewhat pessimistic, which is understandable in the atmosphere of wars and troubles in the world today. We cannot assert any great influence on the balance of power, nor is the time still here when we can directly protect our interests. However, we can exert very considerable influence indeed as a member of the European Community in due course and as a member of the United Nations.
There are four main dangers to world peace. There is the continuing danger of nuclear proliferation. There is the fact that at least five major nations now have a nuclear potential and others are knocking at the door waiting to join the club. I remind the Foreign Secretary that when a few weeks ago I suggested that it was most unlikely that India would sign a nuclear non-proliferation treaty so long as China refused to sign he cast some doubt on my contention and treated it with a certain asperity. I hope that he will now realise that my information, which came from talking to many Indian Members of Parliment when I was in Delhi

2557
last year, had some substance. That is indicative of the difficulty of proceedings much further to achieve a meaningful non-proliferation treaty.
The second major danger to world peace has already been effectively mentioned. I pay tribute to the Foreign Secretary's speech on this matter. I agreed with everything he had to say about the efforts to include China in the United Nations. It is a tremendous omission that a nation of more than 600 million should still be excluded from the one international forum which can still be expected to work, and its exclusion is obviously detrimental to hopes for world peace. Not only are the Chinese excluded from the United Nations, but by that they are also excluded from the world dialogue on international affairs. The fact that in present circumstances they may not wish to join is understandable, but let us hope that before long the time will come when we can find some means to get China into the United Nations.
I strongly believe that we must do everything we possibly can to maintain confidence in the United Nations regardless of the setbacks which it has suffered recently through having lost a certain prestige, particularly due to the rapid withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Force from the Middle East, which precipitated, or did much to precipitate, the recent Arab-Israeli war.
Another grave danger is the continuing and widening gap between developed and under-developed countries, between what we have and what they have not. We can think of India, of the recent starvation in Bihar and the U.P., now slightly alleviated by the breaking of the dry weather, of the tremendous swelling of population which can be only partly countered by birth control methods, of the vicious circle in Africa where insufficient food leads to insufficient energy and initiative to do the work to create the wealth which provides the food, a vicious circle to be found not only in Africa but many other developing countries.
There is a crying need for aid and development through United Nations agencies, and not by methods used merely to try to gain influence. I make one comparison to indicate what I mean. If it were not for the war in Vietnam,
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there would be a tremendous scheme going on—it is going on, but it is inhibited by the war—in the Mekong Delta, an area to which many nations have contributed, an example of a united effort of world aid to develop an area and so alter the whole economic position of that part of the world. The other kind of aid is that which, like the building of the Aswan Dam, is largely a prestige effort by one nation. Aid and development must be through United Nations agencies and not by independent nations trying to gain influence.
There is also a great need for generous trading policies, continuing tariff reductions and paying fair prices in particular for the primary products on which our industries depend and to give credit wherever possible so that the underdeveloped countries can become purchasers in world markets and, by development, can create the internal wealth which will enable them to take part in world trade as equal partners.
The fourth main obvious danger to world peace is that of racial tension. I am not referring just to the racial tension between black and white, but also to that between Arab and Jew and between Asiatic and European and even to the not uncommon attitude of "English versus the rest", the "wogs" the "Celtic fringe", the "dirty Continentals". Fortunately, this attitude is rapidly disappearing, but it still exists in certain circles.
To counter these dangers it is only logical that Britain should pursue her efforts to join Europe with the greatest determination. This may well mean temporary sacrifices and a certain surrender of sovereignty, but in time we can hope to see developing out of the European Economic Community a European political community and perhaps eventually a European defence community on the widest possible basis, a political community which can develop its own foreign policy, although to some extent it may be obliged to depend on joint guarantees from the super Powers, the Soviet Union and the United States, but a European political and economic community with a tremendous potential to contribute to the United Nations world peacekeeping force in the military sense and in the sense of world aid and investment in under-developed countries.

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We can make by far the greatest contribution through Europe rather than as an individual nation, but the Treaty of Rome must be accepted. Some people might have found it a little easier to accept if it had been the Treaty of London, or the Treaty of Amsterdam, or even the Treaty of Edinburgh, but we must accept it with only the essential transitional arrangements. We must be prepared to co-operate in a science and technological community run supra-nationally and with a strong central fund. We must rethink the role of sterling. There is obviously a great need for a European reserve currency to ease the whole problem of international liquidity.
It is easy for opponents of our entry to Europe to produce rather facile arguments about the expense of the Sunday joint, or the inconvenience of fish on Fridays, but those facile arguments are tremendously outweighed by the overwhelming need for political unity and the cold wind of competition on an entirely equal basis to give a spur to our less efficient industries with larger markets and longer production runs.
At the same time as working for entry into Europe, to counter the other dangers we need to continue to work to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons and for the effectiveness and prestige of the United Nations and, wherever we still have influence and responsibility, against all forms of racial discrimination wherever they occur.
When the time comes, as I believe that it will, when a supra national European political community evolves from the E.E.C., whom will we want to see as members of that community? If it is to follow on from the E.E.C., one of the qualifications for entry will obviously be the unanimous approval of new entrants by existing members. On a majority basis, we could be in the E.E.C. tomorrow and it is only because France is standing out against us, or at least raising certain objections to our joining, that we do not find it easier to get in. But in the long run this should not preclude East European countries from joining such a European political community. Britain should now take the lead in endeavouring to set up a N.A.T.O.-
2560
Warsaw Pact conciliation committee which could work out common ground and at least discuss ways and means for beginning co-operation in trade and in an economic sense which could lead to a more lasting economic co-operation.
For those nations which are unable to join for political or for other reasons, or are unable or unwilling to join, we should consider some method of associate membership with the European political community. There are nations, not only in Eastern Europe but in Western Europe, which might be unacceptable. I am thinking particularly of Spain and Portugal, and even Greece under the present régime.
It came as a great surprise to me to see how rapidly this Government were willing to recognise the present régime in Greece while they were unwilling to recognise, in my view for the right reasons, the ré gime in Rhodesia. At least the Rhodesian régime can say that there has never been a true democracy in Rhodesia, whereas in Greece they have put the clock right back. The alacrity with which this Government were prepared to recognise the régime which has abolished all basic freedom in that country was a great surprise to me, and I listened with the greatest interest to the extremely well-informed speech of the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) on that subject.
What will we do if insurmountable obstacles are raised to our entry to E.E.C.? It is possible that de Gaulle and Keisinger have reached some private agreement to keep Britain out. Even if this happened we will still be Europeans, and we must regard ourselves as such. We still have friends in Europe and we might even get the Benelux countries and Italy to join us in E.F.T.A. They may prefer this to a Bonn-Paris axis, if such should come about, although I hope it will not. There will be a growing demand for a bridgehead for a wider Europe which we must obtain at all costs.
We left it very late to get into Europe. If we had tried in 1956 not only could we have helped to construct the foundations, but we could have wandered in and out of the front door at will. Now we are limping up the fire escape, trying to get in through the seventh storey window. If, in the course of doing this, we have the

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window slammed on our fingers, we had better be ready with all the answers. Eventually, when European political community is evolved from the E.E.C., its institutions, the Commission, the Council, the European Parliament, can develop and work out common policies. We want to see a weighted majority vote in the ministerial council, with advice from international commissions of independent experts. Eventually we would like to see a directly elected European Parliament for common policies.
This is in no way incompatible with liberal policy for Scottish and Welsh Parliaments for home affairs. We believe that Scotland and Wales have every bit as much right to representation in a European Parliament as have other small countries such as Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg and so on.
I want to say a few words about the future of N.A.T.O., a subject which most politicians seem to avoid at all costs. I hope that the Government will show a flexible approach to the future of N.A.T.O. It certainly has a function but it would be a great pity if it came to be self-perpetuating, a sort of revered institution, rather like the Beefeaters, but on a European scale. We accept that at present there is a need for a continuation of the Atlantic Alliance, pending a satisfactory East-West security agreement, and possible mutual guarantees by the super powers.
Eventually, if within a European political community we can develop a European defence community, this should be non-nuclear. We do not wish to preempt a decision by such a European defence community about what its defence set-up may be. We feel that it should be non-nuclear, but this is a decision which will be taken by the member nations. Its functions will be largely internal security and the protection of territorial integrity within the community.
It can make a great contribution to the United Nations forces. It can serve in a sense as the bridge between East and West—not as a third nuclear force, an idea which has been put forward from the official Front Bench in a recent debate, but as a bridging force for good between East and West.
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This would inevitably involve the scrapping of the French force de frappe. It would involve a non-nuclear West Germany which would do a great deal to allay the fears of the Soviet Union. It would eventually involve withdrawal of the United States and Soviet forces to their own countries. I am not one of those who regard the Soviet Union as a European nation, nor do I foresee a European political community stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals. This is so idealistic as to be unrealistic.
At the same time, an independent Europe with possibly a joint nuclear guarantee by both the United States and the Soviet Union would be a dominating force for good in the world. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics has never been truly European. Throughout its history Russia has acted in a sense as a breakwater against aggression from the East. This has been its historical function, and it now sees itself partly in this role with the gathering clouds over China. I know that when I was in the Soviet Union, between 1952 and 1954, below the surface there was a very real fear, even then, of what was going on inside China. This is no new phenomenon.
The Vietnam war has a profound effect on politics within Europe and until there is some resolving of it it will be almost impossible for a straightforward dialogue between Western Europe and the Soviet Union. The obstacles to the kind of European political community which I have outlined, apart from the continuing war in Vietnam are secondary ones—such as the Soviet involvement in the Middle East, which is partly caused by, and partly the result of the war in Vietnam. It is a sort of second line set-up by the U.S.S.R., which would never have been necessary, from its point of view, had the war in the Far East not been taking place.
There is still to contend with a statement of November, 1960, made at the convention of Communist Governments when they said that they would continue to do everything within their power, short of war, to bring about the downfall of the Western Powers. That has never been abbrogated and I am always hoping that one day the Soviet Union at least will come into the open and declare that its signature on this document no longer applies.

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Lastly there is the continued division of Germany. In our view there is no easy or immediate solution to this. The only solution is for both East and West Germany to become members of a supranational European political community. Prior reunification is not even a remote possibility, but recognition of the Oder-Neisse line would at least be a step in the right direction.
There are matters beyond Europe. We welcome the aims of the Defence White Paper which has just been produced, but it has two basic flaws. It says very little about United Nations action and action that we can take through the United Nations. It also seems to emphasise the reduction of conventional forces but the maintenance of nuclear forces.
I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir A. Douglas-Home), for whom I have the greatest respect but with whom I do not always agree, putting forward the arguments and views which could not be expressed by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), the official Opposition spokesman on defence, in next week's debate. I think that, after that debate, there will be some diversity between what is said by the official Opposition defence spokesman and what has been said by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire today. [HON. MEMBERS: "Wait and see."] I will do so, with the greatest interest.
What has been shown is the futility of Britain's continuing to try to play an individual world role. Our role must be played through the United Nations. We are no longer an imperial power; we are no longer the protector of the Commonwealth; we are no longer the world's special constable. The penalties of attempting to try to play this role, apart from the penalty of the burden on our balance of payments, is that it definitely inhibits Britain from integrating into Europe and it certainly prolongs the cries of neo-colonialism from abroad.
We have some remaining obligations east of Suez. We have the obligation to the Commonwealth. But the Commonwealth is growing up; and there is an alliance called the ANZUS Pact, which I hardly hear mentioned in the Chamber. We have an obligation to S.E.A.T.O., but many people think that that Treaty is
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more or less a dead letter. We have some limited obligations in the Persian Gulf. I referred to that matter in an intervention earlier. I should have liked to admit that we have a friendly convention with Bahrein dating from 1861 in which Bahrein agreed to abstain from all maritime aggressions if we protected them
"against similar aggressions directed against them by the chiefs and tribes of this Gulf".
There was the treaty with Qatar dated 1916 in which the Sheikh of Qatar undertook to refrain from aggression by sea, and we said that we would grant him "good offices" if he was
"assailed by land within the territories of Qatar"
but only in the event of such aggression being unprovoked. There was a more recent agreement with Kuwait in 1961. This was merely an exchange of notes which showed the readiness of Her Majesty's Government to assist the Government of Kuwait if the latter requested such assistance.
Although we have these limited treaty obligations in the Persian Gulf, they are not sufficient to warrant the maintenance of a permanent force and permanent base in that area. We can still fulfil these obligations without such a base. If we are to keep a base east of Suez, it should be an Australian base. The Australians should supply us with the necessary basing and servicing facilities to enable such force as we need to keep in the area to play its part in fulfilling these obligations.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles (Winchester) rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Interventions prolong speeches and many hon. Members wish to speak.
Mr. Davidson: I am about to conclude. I beg the indulgence of the House if I have slightly overstayed my welcome.
There is nothing shameful in the passing of the imperial era and the decline of Britain's military power. May I make a brief comparison. It is like the parents whose family have grown up and reached independence and who are looking for a smaller house, reduced insurance commitments and trying to join the local community club. In this sense, it is wrong for hon. Members, particularly among the Opposition, to feel that it is shameful that the rôle which Britain

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played in the world in the middle of the nineteenth century is no longer the rôle which she should play in the middle of the twentieth century.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. Frank Judd: I join those who have congratulated the Foreign Secretary on what I thought was a most imaginative introductory speech. Anyone looking in retrospect at the recent Middle East crisis can see that, once again, the United Nations has demonstrated its indispensability. The fact that we have recognised this only at the eleventh hour is another factor of international crises too frequently repeated. I am glad to note that the Foreign Secretary is still determined to put support for and strengthening of the United Nations at the centre of his foreign policy. There is only one observation which I wish to make on his remarks in that respect. Perhaps he will be able to give higher priority in the allocation of his tame to visits to the United Nations, because we can see from his presence at the United Nations that he has won immense respect from the community of nations there represented.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu), in discussing the crisis in the Middle East, referred to the Early Day Motion on the Order Paper dealing with the possibility of a United Nations presence in Sinai, with United Nations control of that area. There is a great deal to attract one in this proposal, but we should caution those who support it by commenting that at this juncture it could too easily be interpreted by the Arabs, whom we are desperately anxious to bring to the conference table, as another hostile attitude of the world community.
I should like to say a word or two about what I felt was the most courageous speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Alan Lee Williams). I believe that we have a direct responsibility to ensure that if we withdraw from areas where we at present carry special responsibilities, such as in South-East Asia, we do not just mouth platitudes about international security arrangements to take the place of our presence but actively get down to the job of constructing meaningful international security arrangements. I fear that there
2566
is precious little evidence that we have done much about this.
In looking at the past year—and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said that we had had 10 debates on foreign affairs—I am a little disappointed that the Labour Government have not found time this year for a major debate on overseas aid and development policies. I wish to concentrate my remarks on this vital aspect. In a way it is perhaps fortunate that I can do it in the context of a foreign affairs debate, because it may give me the opportunity of stressing that this sphere of activity should receive a far greater degree of importance within our overall foreign policy.
A few statistics taken almost at random emphasise the size of the problem. Thirty per cent. of the world's population has 60 per cent. of the world's foodstuffs. Average earnings in Europe and North America are 10 times those in Asia. A young Briton starting out on employment would think that he was earning only modestly if he were receiving £10 a week. A farmer in Africa may still expect to earn £10 per annum as his total income. The West, collectively spends seven times as much, or 700 per cent. more, on armaments or preparation for the negative containment of violence should it occur as it spends collectively on a positive attack on the causes of conflict—hunger, poverty, disease and ignorance, which are the festering grounds of revolution and violence.
One of the stark realities is that this gap is growing daily. Furthermore, it is a gap underlined by race. When some of us, in a sense of relief welcome indications of a reconciliation between the Soviet Union and the United States, we do well to remember that within the Communist bloc there are differences developing on racial grounds as serious as those which exist in other parts of the world. We would do well to remember that if through this widening economic gap we are to see an emphasised difference between the wealthy and the poor nations of the world, there will be an increasingly powerful China standing by ready to lead the revolutionary situations when the opportunity occurs. We all surely agree that the possibility of direct confrontation between the great Powers in the international community is remote, but

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the possibility is always there of indirect confrontation which could occur as the result of a local revolutionary conflict growing out of control.
If we learn one broad lesson from history, it is that almost without fail, when the majority of the population in any community have become aware that the privileged minority are in control of the wealth and influence which is their prerogative and that these are not being shared by the community as a whole, it is only a matter of time before change must come. Where those in control have been blindest to this truth, the change has been most violent.
I see no reason to believe that that truth in the history of the nation-State will not be translated also into the national community. I am not arguing—it would be naïve to do so—that we are likely to see in the near future a direct and simple race war. What I am suggesting is that out of this situation, an era of tension and danger could develop which could make the worst days of the recent cold war look mild by comparison.
Faced with the magnitude of that problem, it is reassuring that while still in opposition the Labour Party was able to commit itself by categorically stating in an official publication that
"A Labour Government will give a new impetus to the war on want. We see it as part of our Socialist obligations to intensify the struggle against world poverty."
It was reassuring to see that theme taken up in the election manifestos of both 1964 and 1966.
If I may quote from those manifestos, I take first 1964. The Labour Party said firmly:
"We believe that the Socialist axiom 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' is not for home consumption only."
It went on to argue that a full-fledged Ministry of Overseas Development was needed. In dealing with that sphere of activity, it said that
"An increased share of the national income devoted to essential aid programmes, not only by loans and grants, but by mobilising unused industrial capacity to meet overseas needs"
would be a priority of the Labour Government.
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At the following General Election, the manifesto was still able to concentrate on that sphere. It said:
"A Labour Government will mobilise increasing resources in money, expert advice and voluntary effort to make war on want."
To support that collective viewpoint—and we know that in an election issues always become a little over-simplified—we have on record the personal commitment of a whole range of party leaders; the Prime Minister himself had a written commitment to that theme; the Minister of Transport had committed herself on many occasions in the House. The Minister of Education had also committed himself—to mention only three.
In referring to the higher priority that should be given to these policies, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport said in the House on 3rd February, 1964:
"To begin with, therefore, it would help to get the world development authority launched if we had a Ministry of Overseas Development in this country, with the same co-ordinating function as a Ministry of Planning and with Cabinet rank to show the importance which we in Britain attach to the challenge of the Development Decade." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd February, 1964; Vol. 688, c. 846.]
Three days later, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister repeated that same conviction and said:
"Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman what we need. A full-scale Ministry of Overseas Development, under a Minister of Cabinet rank, to take over all responsibility for all Commonwealth and other overseas development; to assist and co-operate with voluntary effort in this country…and to take responsibility for our representation on the U.N. specialised agencies."—[OFFiciAL REPORT, 6th February, 1964; Vol. 688, c. 1382.]
That promise was followed by speedy action after the election of a Labour Government in 1964. The Ministry of Overseas Development replaced the Department of Technical Co-operation. We saw a Minister of Cabinet rank. Very quickly, we saw an imaginative White Paper and a great deal of work was begun on the rationalisation of aid programmes.
Almost immediately, however, counter-pressures became evident. There was the five-year plan which paid lip service to the principle of aid but which seemed to say in a rather tired way that we had, perhaps, been doing more

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than we could afford as a nation. It was a five-year plan which more disappointingly, when commenting on how wealth should be distributed in the future, when we had created the extra wealth by 1970, said nothing whatever about a large and significant increased share of the cake for our civil policies overseas.
More recently, in 1966, as the result of the freeze, despite exemptions made on social services at home, we saw the swingeing cuts on the overseas aid programme. We saw a cut of 10 per cent.—£20 million—on a minimal programme of £225 million, a reduction to £205 million; cuts far greater in proportion than those elsewhere. Some of us who were disappointed by that were even more crestfallen when the Government decided later that they were bound to increase the fees for overseas students.
At the start of this year, when we were already depressed enough, there was the still more depressing news that the Minister of Overseas Development, about whom such tall claims had been made in earlier speeches, was ejected from the Cabinet.
All this has to be seen against the background of one halfway mark in the United Nations Development Decade.
I will be forgiven if I remind the House briefly of the objective of that Decade. We remember that it was simply to see a mere 1 per cent. of the gross national product contributed by the Governments of developed countries to development. It was hoped that through this policy a modest 5 per cent. growth rate could be achieved in the developing countries.
To those who might say that that is too ambitious, I would stress that a 5 per cent. growth rate, allowing for a 3 to 3½per cent. population growth, would mean a per capita income increase of only 1½to 2 per cent. a year in the developing countries. It would take 35 to 50 years to double living standards in the developing countries. That would leave the people of India after 35 or 50 years with a per capita income of still only £50.
Halfway through that Decade, all is not well. Aid from the developed countries, far from increasing, has levelled off since 1960 both absolutely and as a pro-
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portion of the gross national product. No less an authority than George Wood, President of the World Bank, said last year that
"Unless the Development Decade, as President Kennedy christened it, receives greater significance, it may in fact recede into history as the decade of disappointment."
We should not underestimate the difficulties inherited by the Government from their predecessors. The Government see a strong base in the British economy as essential if we are to do all we want to do in Britain and abroad, but I make several criticisms basically of the faltering policy—of the negation of the original aims in overseas aid and development policies—which we have seen in the past year.
First, it demonstrates a sad lack of political courage and leadership. Just as we said that there were certain urgent social priorities at home which must be exempted from the full impact of the economic crisis, likewise the Government should also have said that their Socialist principles demanded that the same should apply to aspects of their policy and work overseas.
Secondly, it has been misleading to suggest to the House and the nation that there is a proportionate relevance in the cuts to the balance of payment problem. When I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development earlier this year what was the saving to the balance of payments of the recent cuts in overseas aid programmes, he replied:
"While it is not possible to calculate an exact figure it would be reasonable to suppose that if aid is reduced by £20 million a balance of payments saving of the order of £7 million may be expected."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 97.]
Answering another Question, he assured me that for every £ contributed to the International Development Association, Britain secured 30s. worth of orders.
The next criticism is that it smacks of traditional charity when, because we are in economic difficulties, we say that we cannot afford to do as much as we were doing. We must recognise that the economic growth of the world community as a whole is very much in our interests —that just as, since the Industrial Revolution, economic growth in Britain has been sustained by the increased purchasing power of the working classes, so also our national expansion can now only be

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sustained if the purchasing power of the developing nations is increased.
Further, we are not recognising the strategic importance of aid. We are failing to recognise the political interdependence of the world community as a whole and, that if we care about peace in the most positive sense, we must give priority to programmes of this sort. The best guarantee of human survival is to be found in increased world prosperity based on practical partnership.
What action do I suggest? I am sure that the Government will not have failed to notice that already 60 of my hon. Friends have signed Early Pay Motion headed, "Support for war on world poverty". Those who signed it would like to see, as a first priority, the Minister of Overseas Development put back in the Cabinet, where he belongs—put back there on grounds of Socialist priorities and Socialist planning.
We should also like to see restored quickly the original targets for overseas aid development programmes. Equally, we want to see an increased concentration on multilateral programmes. We must recognise that, in a developing country, a host of different agreements with different countries of origin ensures economic chaos as the country tries to develop. Co-ordinated international help will lead to cohesion in such areas and I hope that there will be increased support for United Nations development programmes led by that great practical internationalist, Paul Hoffman, at the United Nations.
Priority should be given to agriculture and literacy. We want to see Her Majesty's Government giving more attention to the indicative world plan of the Food and Agricultural Organisation and committing themselves more fully to U.N.E.S.C.O.'s World Literacy Programme to combat the growing rate of illiteracy in the world. It has been estimated that there are now 700 million to 1,000 million illiterates.
Her Majesty's Government should give increased support—some support is already being given—to the various international family planning programmes. Equally, the Government should say more about their plans for the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development. It was the last conference of
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U.N.C.T.A.D. which gave the developing nations their first real hope for economic maturity and self-sufficiency. We would be churlish not to recognise the outstanding record of the last Conservative Government in their performance at that conference. I hope that the Socialist Government will be able to go on and do even more in this respect.
In considering U.N.C.T.A.D., we must recognise that long-term price guarantees for the primary producing countries are essential. At present, wild fluctuations in the prices of primary commodities—sometimes fluctuating as much as 12 per cent.—can wipe out in one year the progress made in several years. We cannot pretend that all this will not necessitate changes in our pattern of industry, but at a time when the Government are claiming that they are endeavouring to streamline the industrial pattern in Britain, it would be absurd to ignore the international perspective.
We must also regard the problem of world liquidity, from the point of view of the developing countries, as something requiring high priority. We in Britain are ourselves directly concerned with this matter and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister care desperately about these problems. The International Development Association of the World Bank estimates that the developing countries could absorb £1,000 million more each year quite effectively. Barbara Ward, the international economist, commenting on this situation, suggested:
"…it might be possible to evolve a scheme in which part at least of the world's reserves were provided not by gold, nor by currencies, but by some controlled creation of credit on the part of the world's embryonic central bank, the International Monetary Fund."
She said:
"If each year it were empowered to issue credit certificates to the value of, say, 5 per cent. of world trade, and these were placed with the near-liquid assets of the World Bank. the Bank could then transfer an equivalent amount of capital to its subsidiary, the International Development Association. for investment in the developing world. Alternatively, to make such a proposal respectable to banking opinion, it could follow the French suggestion that new credit issued by the International Monetary Fund should be given to developed nations in the proportion to which they give aid to the underdeveloped."
If the developing countries are to achieve sound economic development, the right

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balance between the infrastructure, which is essential, and the spreading of economic progress throughout the community in that country as a whole must be secured.
In this respect, I believe that the Government could give more attention to the work of Dr. Schumacher and his Intermediate Technology Group. This Group has done some extremely interesting research recently on relevant policies for development in developing countries. Speaking to an Africa Bureau meeting last year, he summed up this theory in a few neat sentences. He said:
"If you want to go places, start from where you are. If you are poor, start with something cheap. If you are uneducated, start with something relatively simple. If you live in a poor environment, and poverty makes markets small, start with something small. If you are unemployed, start using your labour power; because any use of it, any productive use of it, is better than letting it lie idle."
Replying to the criticism that intermediate technology is second-best, he said:
"Well, is it? For whom is it second best? Is a bicycle second best for someone who has got nothing? No, it is the best for him, and the gift of a car would ruin him. Is a computer the best thing for the illiterate? Certainly not! "
The success of his Group is indicated by inquiries which have been received from all over the world. I will quote only one, which stated:
"Some twenty or thirty years ago there existed a bit of equipment which one could purchase for £20 to do a particular job. Now it costs £2,000 and is fully automated, and we cannot afford to buy it. Can you help us?"
Her Majesty's Government have an opportunity to lead the world by supporting the work of this Intermediate Technology Group.
In conclusion, the principles and philosophy on which we base our policies here at home cannot be forgotten at the English Channel or even at the Mediterranean. They have a universal significance. The rapid development in recent years of world communications—the capacity that has been developed by mankind for his total self-destruction—illustrate that we can no longer afford to regard peace in its most positive sense as a romantic pipe dream. It is an urgent, practical necessity. To achieve this, in our attitudes to Europe, to the Commonwealth and to the United Nations, we must accept our large and special responsibility for, and give the necessary priority to, the
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economic and social development of the world community as a whole.
8.9 p.m.
Mr. Paul Hawkins: I am well aware of my lack of knowledge of foreign affairs and general matters connected with this debate. I would, therefore, hate to try to praise or criticise any of the speeches made today. I am only one of many millions of people who fought in at least one war and who desires never to see another war. I am always intensely interested in these foreign affairs debates, and today we have heard some excellent speeches from both sides. I rise to raise two points which have been brought to my notice in recent days.
The first point concerns a constituent whose son is on the "Scottish Star", one of the Blue Star Line, lying in the Suez Canal. She wrote a fortnight ago asking me to find out, as a matter of urgency, the whereabouts of the boy, the state of his health and when he was likely to get home. I understand that the boy is aged 18 years or under. I phoned the Foreign Office and after some time got in touch with an emergency call unit. The lady there appeared to have no knowledge whatever of conditions in the Canal. It seemed as though we had no contact at all, at least directly, with the ships there.
I received another letter from my constituent this morning. She had received a letter, dated some three weeks earlier, saying that her son was well, but there seemed to be no information as to when the ships would be freed or when the crews could hope to be replaced by fresh crews from home. I again phoned the Foreign Office and received the information that the person concerned had gone on leave and that the papers had been lost. I was later put in touch with the Commonwealth Office, where someone told me that it was understood that the Canadian Government were looking after our interests but that the Canadians themselves could not get on board the ships to find out what was happening.
As these ships have now been held in the Canal for several weeks, I think we should have far closer contact with those on board them. I know that the Foreign Secretary had many subjects to deal with in a short time, but I hope that later in the debate the Government spokesman can refer to this matter. It is a human

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problem, and we should assert our authority in one way or another, to bring home those people on the ships or, at any rate, to assure their parents or other relatives that they are well.
A day or two ago I met a gentleman who had just come back from Jordan. He is director of an organisation there called M.B.D.T., which I understand is a medical research unit that has a lot to do with the treatment of burns. He had spent a long period in hospitals in Jordan giving advice on the treatment of the burns of some of the wounded.
We must keep a link with the Arab countries. I think that most people in this country and in the House were very pleased that Israel had achieved what she set out to do. Sympathy with her was overwhelming. On the other hand, we have many good friends in the Arab countries and Jordan may prove to be our best link.
The gentleman with whom I talked told me that what was badly needed in Jordan was a small hospital unit, costing some £30,000, which could be provided almost immediately from stocks in this country and then go with the team he had already organised for the treatment of burns. I gathered from him that the friendship for Great Britain of the ordinary people, and the doctors, and so on, in the hospitals is extremely great. A gesture such as providing a hospital could help to keep our ties with the Arab countries intact and would do a great deal for our future friendship with them.
I do not intend to enter into the great debate on foreign affairs, but I tope that something can be done about the two matters I have mentioned. In particular, if something can be said about the men on the ships, and the ships, now held up in the Canal, I shall be very grateful.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. David Winnick: I am sure that the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hawkins) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his very interesting argument. I want, first, to refer to what was said about Vietnam by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker). I do not want to speak about Vietnam as such—we only recently debated the subject—but I find it impossible to understand how any hon. Member can justify
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the way in which the Americans are waging that war.
It will be no secret to my colleagues in the House that I am opposed to American action in Vietnam. I have never believed it to be a clear-cut, black-and-white issue, but the way in which the United States are waging the war—the napalm, and the indiscriminate killings —really horrifies me as a British citizen and a Member of Parliament. I only wish that Members like the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), who puts the American point of view, could try to understand the shock and horror caused to so many people in this country by what the United States are doing. If, occasionally, when he makes his visits to the United States, and they seem to be very frequent, he would try to explain to the American Administration that feeling of shock and horror it would do his cause and that of the United States a great deal of good.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I have endeavoured to do that. More than that, I have taken the opportunity to write extensively in American newspapers expressing the very point the hon. Member is putting forward.
Mr. Winnick: I must be forgiven for not having read the American papers and the hon. Member's articles but, of course, if he has been pursuing this line I am very pleased. In all fairness, however, one must say that in his contributions in the House—and he is a very interesting and fluent speaker—the hon. Member has put more or less the point of view of the American Administration.
I want now to return to the subject of Greece, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan). On 24th April, a day or two after the military coup in Greece, I had a Private Notice Question to the Foreign Secretary. In a supplementary question, I described those who had taken part in the military coup as "military riff-raff", and some right hon. and hon. Members opposite felt that it was, perhaps, an exaggerated expression, and that I should not have used it. However, it seems to me that what has happened in the few months since the coup has well justified my description of the colonels as military riff-raff.

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We have seen in Greece, a Western European country and a N.A.T.O. country, the complete suppression of freedom of speech. We have seen mass arrests. The Observer last Sunday reported that 45 Greek M.P.s were held without trial in detention and 26 were members of the Centre Union Party. Others who are held include the President of the Athens Bar Association and the former head of the Greek Mission to N.A.T.O. We know that a number of people are being held on the Island of Yioura.
I congratulate The Times on the reports it has carried in the last few weeks. They have been extremely informative. We have a duty and responsibility to be aware of what is happening in Greece and to express our very deep concern that the democratic process has been destroyed and in Greece we have a military dictatorship. I do not think anyone can deny that. There have been stories of hardship and brutality against political detainees. There seems a brutal, callous indifference on the part of the new rulers in Greece to those in Greece who disagree with them.
What sort of responsibility have we and other nations in N.A.T.O.? I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary is not present at the moment. What has rather disturbed me has been that very little action has been taken on our part in expressing condemnation of the military dictatorship in Greece. I am glad to know that Denmark, a member of the United Nations, has made a very strong protest. It is to the credit of that country that it has done so. The Dutch Foreign Minister has also made a strong protest. There has been a sort of feeling here, to a certain extent shared by both Front Benches, that we should not intervene but that we should leave matters as they are and that we cannot do any good by intervening. This is rather bad. I should have thought that we should go out of our way to give every possible moral support to democrats in Greece who are suffering under a military and near fascist dictatorship.
I read from an editorial which appeared in The Times on 15th July. It says that the Western Governments should use all the influence they possess to speed the restoration of democracy there and adds:
"The frontiers of freedom are narrow enough as it is: acquiescing in their further limitation diminishes our own freedom."
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I wish that speakers on both Front Benches had gone as far as The Times did in that editorial.
The situation in Cyprus is closely related to that in Greece. There is a great deal of concern that there might be a coup in Cyprus. There is great concern that those who rule Greece at the moment will try to overthrow the democratic government in Cyprus and tie Cyprus up with Greece. It will come as no surprise to the House that secret negotiations have been going on—they are supposed to be secret—between the Greek and the Turkish Governments. One has the suspicion, which I hope is unjustified, that if there were a coup no great objection would come from the Turkish Government. In Cyprus over the years there has been a desire among some of the people for union with Greece, but I do not think many of them would want to be linked with Greece while it is ruled by military dictatorship.
I should have thought it possible to issue a warning to Greece, as she is a member of the United Nations and Cyprus is a member of the Commonwealth, that we will not be indifferent to any military coup organised by the Greek rulers against the territorial integrity of Cyprus. I am very much concerned about the Cypriot position, I hope that my feeling is shared by those on the Government Front Bench.
I do not always agree with the Daily Mail, but today one of its columnists—a very well known one, Anne Scott James —writing about the military dictatorship, says that she will not take her holidays in Greece this year. She is showing concern about the situation which I hope will be followed by a great many others in regard to the victims of the miltary dictatorship.
I pass to the subject of the Common Market, which has not been discussed today. I believe that on balance, given the right conditions, we should enter the Economic Community. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shame"] Someone said "Shame". We are all entitled to our views. I am in favour of going in, given the right conditions, and I was in favour of the British Government making their application.
What worries me is that with French obstruction and the possibility later of a

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French veto, we may be involved in many months and perhaps a year after submitting the application in negotiations and then find ourselves in the same position as we did at the beginning of 1963. I think we were right in making the application because I believe that we should go into the Community, but I hope I shall be forgiven for saying that I believe the time is coming when the Government must make an assessment of the situation. If there is no chance of getting in and if it is obvious that there is to be a French obstruction to our entry, we should say that the time has come to withdraw our application.
I see little sense in continuing with the application if we know that we shall not be allowed to enter. We have not even started the negotiations yet. I do not know when they are due to start. The French are opposed even to our negotiating our entry. Therefore, it would be far better if at some stage in the next few weeks we were to say, "It is obvious that we cannot get in. In these circumstances, we withdraw our application".
I do not want Britain to be in the position which it was in last time, of being involved for months and months in negotiations, being undermined all the time by France, and then being faced with a veto at the end of the day. The Government have a responsibility to make an assessment of the situation with regard to our application.
In foreign affairs debates there is a tendency to make what one hon. Gentleman described as a "Cook's Tour". but I especially want to mention two other matters. The first is the question of the Arab refugees in the Middle East. During the week's war I said in the House and outside, that, given the circumstances in which it found itself, Israel was justified in taking military action. I still believe that to be the case.
We know that the State of Israel was being threatened. We know that there were those in the Arab world and amongst the Arab leadership who spoke of conquering Israel. We know that the person who headed the Palestine liberation army, when he was asked what would happen to the Israeli survivors, replied, "What survivors? " In these circumstances, I believe, rightly or wrongly,
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that the State of Israel, as any other independent country, was right to try to defend itself against aggression.
What causes me some worry—I am sure that I am not the only pro-Israel person who feels like this—is the position of the Arab refugees who went from the west bank once it was occupied by the Israeli authorities and who now wish to return. I read with great interest yesterday that the first 50 or 60 Arab refugees have been allowed back by the Israeli authorities to the west bank. This is very good. I am very pleased about it. I hope that the Israeli authorities will be willing to allow back many more Arab refugees who want to return to their homes.
I do not believe that it would do Israel's cause any great good if there was a feeling throughout Britain and other countries that the Israeli authorities were indifferent to the suffering and the tragedy of the new wave of Arab refugees. Yesterday at Question Time I asked the Prime Minister if he was aware of the deep concern in the country about the position of the Arab refugees. I was very pleased indeed with his reply.
I know all the difficulties between the Arab countries and Israel. No hon. Member can be unaware of these difficulties. I believe that, apart from anything else, and apart from the humanitarian cause, it would do Israel's own cause much more good if it showed a quicker willingness to allow the refugees in Jordan who want to return to be allowed to return to the west bank.
Finally, I turn quickly to the position of Aden. I believe that there are only about six months left before we leave. Every day we read about new violence and new tragedy in Aden, of more people being shot. I have never wished to condone violence or mob rule, and I shall never be willing to do so; but I still believe that we have a responsibility in the last six months of our rule in Aden to try to get a negotiated agreement with the F.L.O.S.Y. leaders.
I know what is said. It is argued that we try and that we are willing to meet the F.L.O.S.Y. leaders. I believe that we must not only be willing to meet them but that we must also be willing to state that we are ready to make drastic changes in the South Arabian Federation. The

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Foreign Secretary should not forget that this Federation—a very tragic set-up—was initiated by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), supported by his colleagues. We said when in opposition that we were opposed to the Federation. I believe that we should be willing, even at this late stage, to say that, if the F.L.O.S.Y. people are willing to meet us and are willing to negotiate, we for our part are willing to take Aden out of the Federation.
I have said that every day we read about more violence. I can well visualise the sort of situation which will arise once we leave. Is it not worth the effort, even at this late stage, to say that the linking of Aden to the Federation was a mistake? After all, this is what we said in opposition. Bearing this in mind, we should be willing to take Aden out of the Federation now. It would be interesting to see what would be the reaction on the F.L.O.S.Y. leaders. In the last resort these are the people who will decide the future of Aden. We may not like the F.L.O.S.Y. leaders. I certainly do not like their violence and their methods. But this is not uncommon in Colonial situations. In Ireland, Cyprus, India and Egypt the same sort of action was taken by the nationalist leaders. We should be willing to make one last big effort to secure a lasting peace in Aden. If we can achieve this, we shall be able to leave the area without feeling that there may be even more bloodshed and even more violence.
8.31 p.m.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: I hope the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) will not mind if I do not follow him too closely in his analysis. I disagree with him so profoundly over the position of the Americans in Vietnam that it would take me at least two minutes to demolish his case in its entirety, and I do not think I can spare the two minutes.
I propose to refer to what the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon. It was once said of Asquith that he drove a Roman road through the heart of every subject. Having listened carefully to the Foreign Secretary, I visualised someone working his way through a jungle using a machete rather inefficiently. However, at one stage he brought us to a little pool
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of light when he talked about world order. World order is obviously of the greatest concern to both sides of the House. I do not think, though, that sufficient attention has been paid to the perfect analyses which have been produced by people like Reinhold Neibuhr about the possibilities of creating within the foreseeable future in this century the type of large-scale world government which is so dear to the hearts of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
What we know and what we can build on is simply this. We know that the functional world organisations work—organisations like F.A.O., I.C.A.O., the World Bank, I.A.T.A., and U.N.E.S.C.O. —one could name a long list. There is great scope for the expansion of functionalisation in dealing with world government. This is something we ought to do whenever the opportunities exist. I suggested the other day a form of international insurance to deal with the wicked damage which is done to one foreign consulate after another. Another such body is an international maritime court to deal with the type of misjudgment and error at sea which was involved in the "Torrey Canyon" disaster. Many fields can be explored. These will yield something positive.
I turn to the distinguished analysis by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home). He pointed out that it was the aim of Communism to reduce all evolutionary processes to a shambles. This we can accept. But where is this more true than in central and southern Africa today? There is an obligation on all of us to recognise the character of an evolution comparable in speed to that which we attained in this country during the middle of the last century. It is an interesting fact that the first ballot box in a Parliamentary election in England was used only in 1872. It exists in a club in the centre of London. This is a date which the House might bear in mind.
There is an obligation on us to recognise the character of this evolution in Africa. There is equally an obligation on them to demonstrate that their evolution is continuing, that it is purposeful and constructive. These two obligations I feel are fundamental to any real move forward in our relationships with Africa as a whole.

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Fundamental to our consideration of the whole problem is that criticism of Dean Acheson about us having lost our rôle. What kind of power are we? Therefore, what ought we to be trying to do in terms of our forces and foreign policies?
We have then to ask who is our enemy. Is it not characteristic of the 20th century that traditional national enemies are no longer necessarily or automatically our enemies? No names, no packdrill. But tyranny, autocracy, racialism, brutality, intolerance and aggrandisement, whether philosophical or territorial, are still the enemies of this country, wherever they may be found.
What kind of a Power are we? We still have to deal with these things. I believe that we are a very considerable Power. We have the hydrogen bomb. In some ways, the House is embarrassed by this. We prefer not to talk about it. But we have the power to use it. I do not underrate the power capability of a Polaris missile submarine. Also, we are a responsible Power. This is the third parameter. We have, therefore, in addition, considerable conventional forces, because we are a responsible Power. I believe that, in a crisis, this country could mobilise 3 million men. The character of that army is one which the world has recognised in the past, and it would in similar circumstances do so again.
We have considerable international responsibilities, in areas of the world where power is respected more than idealism. This is a sad state of affairs, but I think it true and realistic. Of course, we want to bring desalination to the world, of course we want the overseas development programmes of which my colleague the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) spoke. We want to do all these things, but first we must have the power to protect our investment, to protect our trade, to protect our ships and to protect our citizens. These come first. Everything follows after. We must protect them—the Foreign Secretary himself mentioned this today—from thugs, from vicious confiscation, from vindictive and destructive violence. The right hon. Gentleman described how much of this there is in the sad, savage and sorry world of today.
Mr. John Homer: The hon. Gentleman spoke of protecting our shipping. How would the use of the H-bomb, for example, release our ships from the Suez Canal?
Mr. Lloyd: I said that we were a responsible Power. We would, therefore, never consider using the H-bomb to release our ships from the Suez Canal. But there are other techniques—I wish I had time to discuss them—which we could and should use, and which we should now be thinking of using.
We denigrate ourselves too much, we denigrate our power, we denigrate our purposes and our responsibility. This, as I see it, is the deep cause of the lack of will which is so much at the centre of our problems today. We argue more than most that Britain is no longer in the big league. It is an argument developed most sophisticatedly in this country, and probably in this Chamber. What does it mean?—that we could not launch a missile war? But who would ever think of doing so? If a so-called super-Power were to launch a missile attack on the United Kingdom or the Commonwealth, would it not make one of the greatest and most classic mistakes of history? It is a mistake which has been made before by many dictators who, applying their own scales of judgment, decided that it was something which they could undertake. It is a mistake made by every Power, and they have been many, which has based its military judgments on our criticisms of ourselves. I am not privy to national defence secrets, but I am powerfully convinced that any Power which made such a miscalculation could inflict appalling and intolerable damage on this island, but it would suffer the most appalling retribution.
That is my judgment of our position in the so-called super-Power league. But we must hope that it is a league in which no match will ever be played. Do we, therefore, keep in training? Do we keep our Polaris fleet, our V bombers, the F111s, a British rocket system, our British radio and electronics ingenuity and other forms of military capacity? In my view, the answer is, Yes, we do, because there is no certainty that matches will never be played in the second league.
Unfortunately, there is considerable certainty—the history of the last 18 months demonstrates it—that the third league is

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one in which we are likely to be constantly involved. I concede that in this league Britain alone can achieve any purpose which her people feel to be either morally justified or in our vital national interests. It is the task of statesmanship to ensure that these two essential conditions are never separated. Britain, as leader of a great Commonwealth alliance, need accept no limitation on the exercise of power for any purpose which would bring such a coalition into being. I understand that this has always been the key to British power, authority and greatness. Sometimes I think that we have forgotten it. Sometimes I think that we want to forget it, because the exercise of power, responsibility and leadership imposes onerous burdens, calls for difficult decisions, and requires us to recognise that the world is one in which not all nations, not all races and not all national leaders accept the inevitability of idealism.
My time is brief and, therefore, I shall mention only one other aspect. We are told that the fundamental limitation is economic—the economic limitation of absolute wealth. I do not think that it is so fundamental a limitation as is sometimes thought. This country has never been richer in absolute terms than it is today, give or take a couple of years about which we need not worry. We have never had greater resources in absolute terms than we have today. The resources we employed to dominate—a word that will please some hon. Members opposite—the world in the 19th century were a small fraction of what we have today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) pointed out the amounts of our sumptuary expenditure, including spending on gambling and smoking, which have increased in the past 10 years. Compared with them, the cost of four nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, for example, pales to insignificance. It is a burden that we could consider imposing on ourselves. Bearing in mind the growth rate of our gross national product since the end of the last war, it would be absorbed in continuing growth. We would have lees money for sumptuary expenditure, but we would rediscover the prestige which comes from the knowledge that we are capable of defending the realm,
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which would amply compensate for the economic costs we would have to incur.
It is my profound conviction that the Government would obtain popular support if it decided on a policy to restore the power and prestige of the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy, supplying the former with the aircraft it needs to lead a great Commonwealth and defend its heartland—this island. We need formidable weapons, and we can afford them.
The country may deplore it, but will conceivably allow an incompetent Government to devalue the £, shackle the economy, denigrate our past achievements, and make sackcloth and ashes the national dress. It will deplore it, and it will not allow any Government to devalue our power to the point where the rest of the world knows that it can paper its walls with the statements of British Prime Ministers.
8.43 p.m.
Dr. John Dunwoody: The House will forgive me if I do not pursue the same arguments as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd). I want to confine myself to the situation in Vietnam, for three reasons.
First, I believe that it is the critical flash point in the world today, that it is the part of the world where a third world war is most likely to start. Second, I believe that many other world problems of recent months and years are linked to the military and political stalemate in Vietnam. That is perhaps truer than many people realise of the Middle Eastern crisis. Third, only a few weeks ago I was in South Vietnam for about 12 days with three Parliamentary colleagues from both sides of the House. We travelled thousands of miles, visited all parts of the country and had an opportunity of meeting a large number of Vietnamese, Americans and our own representatives there.
I want to speak on the basis of what I saw and heard in that unhappy country, and to talk about the military, political and social realities of the situation. I want briefly to look to the future of the problem and say a word about Britain's rôle.

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My visit emphasised for me the enormous difficulties that we face in reaching any solution of the Vietnamese problem. It is not, as one hon. Member said, a question simply of black and white, a question of right or wrong. There is a complex mixture of motives on both sides. It is not simply a confrontation between Communism and the free world. There are elements of nationalism, racialism and religious difference.
But the war is unique in one way more than any other in that the whole community is involved. The community is absolutely involved in a way that has never happened before in war, certainly in recent years. In Vietnam we face a war situation which has continued in one way and another for well over 20 years. It is like a modern Hundred Years' War. We see in Vietnam a sort of Mother Courage situation in the twentieth century.
The fighting part of the war can be divided into two parts, the orthodox military confrontation between regular forces and the guerilla war in the community. What frightened me in Vietnam was to hear so many people express the belief that they felt that their side was winning the war. I am certain that the same belief was held by the other side. Having seen the country and having seen the war being fought, I am convinced that it can never be won by either side purely from a military point of view.
At the moment we have the orthodox battle between regular units on each side. This is taking place between regular American forces on the one side and regular North Vietnamese forces on the other side who have infiltrated to the south. I have little doubt that the American forces will win this part of the war because they are better equipped and more numerous and have logistic support which the other side does not have.
The guerilla war is a battle between Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese army and the Vietcong. In most parts of the country the Vietcong are largely locally recruited. From the way that things have been going in recent months, it is very difficult to see how the guerillas, who are deeply entrenched in the community, can ever be defeated by purely military means.
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It does little good to have jet bombers flying at 600 miles per hour when one's enemy is a man harvesting rice six days out of seven and going out only once a week early in the morning to fight a guerrilla action four or five miles up the road. It was a disturbing feature of the situation to me that so many people saw a complete military victory as the end point of the war.
Another disturbing feature was that, while there has been a very rapid buildup of the war in the last two years—there has been an increasing number of American troops going into the country and also a vast amount of military equipment, as well as increased infiltration from the North. First smaller units and now bigger regular units. We have seen more and more effort on both sides devoted to the waging of the war in a military sense—we saw in the part of the country that we were in a continuous and increasing run-down in the social services and the disastrous political consequences of the military actions inseparable from the war, actions which, in the purely military sense, are often labelled victorious. We saw these consequences in health, education, housing in the towns and the refugee problem and in connection with the recurrent economic crises and inflation which the country faces. One sees military victories being achieved, perhaps a victory in which 200 or 300 Vietcong have been killed for the loss of 30 to 40 American troops. When there is a victory, the cost in political and social terms is enormous because in so many cases, in order to achieve this victory, perhaps as many as 30,000 or 40,000 civilians have had to be moved from their ancestral homes to what are virtually refugee camps in provincial capitals perhaps 50 miles behind the line.
Many of these unfortunate individuals are condemned to continue to live in these camps with little prospect of a return to their own home areas, the rice fields they know being denied to them. They are left in this "neither nor" existence in a camp on the outskirts of a town they neither know nor want to know.
I want particularly to talk about the medical services, in which, as a doctor, I was naturally interested and about which I am perhaps qualified to make some judgment. The medical services are almost exclusively our only direct interest

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in South Vietnam. We have a Government-financed civilian medical team in Saigon.
The task facing the civilian medical services in South Vietnam is truly quite hopeless and while the war continues no absolute solution can ever be found. The number of civilian war casualties varies from area to area and from time to time. We saw hospitals where 50 per cent. of tae patients were civilian war injured. When the war gets more active in an area, the percentage may go up to 80 per cent., while it may sink as low as 10 or 20 per cent. in other areas where the war for the moment is not so active.
As a doctor trained in a Western country and used to medical standards here, I was deeply disturbed, not so much by the standards in South Vietnam, which I accept as perhaps inevitable in the circumstances, but by the effect on young people and children who are innocent bystanders in a war not of their doing and from which they have virtually opted out. When one sees all this, one questions the whole sense of the conflict.
While we were at one hospital, a mother and her baby in arms were brought in. They had both been severely injured 40 or 50 miles away by a mine. They were having transfusions as they were being brought in and possibly would survive. These are the real casualties of the war. They were innocent bystanders. In another hospital we found one of the patients chained to his bed because he was a Vietcong suspect. This sort of thing underlines the atmosphere and the attitude that certain people have towards the war.
But perhaps more than anything else I was disturbed by the apathetic acceptance of the war by the great bulk of the ordinary population. One would have thought that people blown up by Vietcong mines or bombed by American aircraft would feel some bitterness, especially those who had been severely injured or mutilated. But the war situation has been with them for so long that they accept war as being part and parcel of life and their reaction to civilian war casualties is much the same as ours is to road injuries. They are accepted as a risk of living and it is just bad luck if one happens to be a casualty.
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Of course, there is a desperate shortage of staff in the hospitals. There were never many Vietnamese doctors anyway and they are mainly in the army. There is an acute shortage of nurses. If it were not for the medical teams from many parts of the world, civilian medical services would be non-existent in many parts of the country.
But outside the hospitals there has been an almost complete breakdown of public health services and elementary things like mosquito control and rubbish collection, resulting in a steadily rising toll of infectious and preventable disease. A large proportion of the community suffer from active tuberculosis without hope of treatment. Cases of plague occur more frequently every year. It is difficult to be definite about figures but I estimate that between 10,000 and 20,000 cases of plague occurred in South Vietnam last year. This is getting to the stage where there is real risk to world health. Diseases like cholera and leprosy are all too common. Most simple and elementary public health measures are not carried out because of the war situation. It is not the fault of anyone. There just are not the people or resources to do these things.
In the centre of Saigon, staying in one of the best hotels, I could go out on to my balcony in the evening and see rats running in the street and families sleeping in the open on the other side of the road. Rats, of course, carry the plague in this sort of situation.
I mentioned the British medical team. I know that my right hon. Friend who will be answering the debate has been in Vietnam and I hope he will be able to say a word about the team. We have a team of British doctors and nurses running part of the only children's hospital in the whole country. I visited the team on two occasions and I should like to pay a personal tribute to the work which it is doing. It is of incalculable benefit not only to the children being treated, but to future generations of Vietnamese children, because it is playing a large part in the training of the medical students and doctors of the future in this country. This is a very effective form of overseas aid and something which we have discussed earlier.
I have deliberately concentrated on the medical aspect of some of the things

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that we saw, because I feel qualified to do this. However, this is one example of social breakdown that is the inevitable result of a war of this kind. It is in the social and political field that the real conflict is to be won and lost. I saw examples of the latest efforts of South Vietnam, supported by the Americans, to win this particular battle. There has been a succession of different methods of indoctrination introduced. Each has failed. The latest method, known as revolutionary development, is now beginning. Teams of young people are trained in a special camp. They undergo training for 12 weeks in batches of 6,000. These youngsters, in teams of 59, then go out into the villages. They spend six months in a village. At the end of that time they are meant to have re-indoctrinated the population, which may well have lived under Vietcong control for 20 or more years. Although some of the individuals behind the idea and some of these teams are genuinely dedicated, it is almost impossible to see it succeeding. There does not seem to be any real political motivation behind this method of indoctrination and it seems unrealistic to believe that it will convert people from a form of Communism which they may well have been brought up with and to which they may well be very deeply attached.
Some of the other efforts which are being made to introduce means of winning this particular battle also disturbed me somewhat. There is a demand, not so much from the South Vietnamese themselves but from the Americans, for what I might call instant democracy—a sort of prefabricated form of democracy—which has been foisted willy nilly and far too rapidly on South Vietnam.
We saw some village elections, which are comparable to our parish elections and in that sense had some meaning. However, in the next few months there will be the presidential election and the election of a national legislature. For these elections to take place in a country where there are no political parties and the Government have control only over a proportion of the population and the country and where there is no freedom of the Press—there is a very rigorous political censorship—is, to my mind, putting the cart before the horse. I
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should like to see some elementary political freedoms given to the people before they are forced to participate in elections of this nature.
I should like to end by referring briefly to the future and the position of the British Government. I was very disturbed by the way in which almost everyone we met in South Vietnam assumed it to be inevitable that there should be a rapid increase in the number of American troops in the country. There were 430,000 American troops there, and this number has been reached at a fairly rapid rate over the last two years. There was talk of perhaps 600,000 or 700,000 by the end of this year, and these troops would all come with their military equipment and their hardware. If this happens we shall see an increasing infiltration from the North in the same way as over the last two years. More and more regular units would come down from the North and, despite the efforts of the American troops and to some, although not a very great, extent of the South Vietnamese Army around the borders, this infiltration would continue. We would also be running the risk of volunteers from other Communist countries coming in, and if this were to happen, the threat of a third world war would loom very large.
There is no easy solution to the problem and there is no easy solution in terms of the Vietnamese conflict alone. The problem of Vietnam can be solved only as part and parcel of a world agreement which must involve primarily the super Powers. But Britain has some small part to play. Our co-chairmanship of the Geneva Conference still means a great deal. The fact that we have repeatedly refused to send troops to South Vietnam also retains a degree of independence for US.
We should tell our American allies that if they are rapidly to increase the number of troops which they have in South Vietnam, if there is to be a major escalation of the war, we will dissociate ourselves from this further involvement in the same way as we did from the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong. It was interesting to meet many people in South Vietnam for whom this dissociation had a considerable meaning, whatever they might have thought about it. We must do these things, because to fail to do so would mean that we no longer retained

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any vestige of influence. We would then have opted out of seeking a solution to what remains the greatest threat to the peace of the world.
9.1 p.m.
Mr. Edwin Brooks: Our debates on foreign affairs are rather sad and sombre events, not least because we hear the events such as those described so effectively and movingly by my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Dr. John Dunwoody). Our malaise and frustration go a little deeper and I am reminded of Dean Acheson's comment that Britain had lost an Empire but not yet found and defined a world rôle. Our difficulty in defining our world rôle in the shrunken arena as we see it is that we are not yet fundamentally reconciled to losing our empire.
Listening to the contributions of one or two hon. Members who have spanned the global theatres of war and peace, I have been reminded that for generations to Britons the world has been a stage and has been their stage. The emotional tug of the centuries is still clearly very powerful, and I suppose that it will have to fall to those now at school and who are not being brought up with the Mercator map plastered in red to come to terms with a world in which black, brown and yellow will no longer be hidden from their view.
It will not he easy for older generations, particularly for the English—and I speak as a migrant Celt—who are not only a formidable people—they did not come to rule a fourth of the world just by accident—but who are also a people who behind their obvious pragmatism believe in their romantic myths, and if this romanticism is not to go sour, as it could so easily in Britain today, it is very important that the myths should be translated into the contemporary setting.
In the few moments available to me I want to touch on two themes—the preservation of peace and the strengthening of democracy in which Britain can still play an important and perhaps decisive role. Some years ago, I was active, as were many of my hon. Friends, in the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament at a time when Britain was the third nuclear Power, although insignificant, of course,
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in comparison with the armoury and delivery systems of the two super Powers.
I believed then—and I think that it was a correct view at the time—that for Britain to pursue her nuclear programme was to encourage the proliferation of nuclear weapons and to reduce the security and stability of world order. I believed that the previous Government, as revealed so strikingly by Suez, had delusions of grandeur which were dangerous nonsense and that the British force de frappe was a nonsensical and non-credible concept. Given Britain's efforts to remain a world poseur, it was alarming to envisage British nuclear weapons being despatched all over the world to various bases with incalculable risks to our national security.
I believe that the world situation today is even more dangerous not least because whatever hopes there might have been—and it is idle now to speculate on what proved in the event to be unobtainable—that a British unilateral decision might have discouraged proliferation, were to be stillborn.
China is already a major nuclear Power, having perhaps developed a cheap and reliable method of separating Uranium 235, a method which could accelerate the spread of the hydrogen bomb to relatively poor and unstable regions. France is also on the verge of becoming a major hydrogen bomb Power, and the arguments which have proved persuasive to her, no less than to our own country years ago, to go nuclear will be arguments of increasing force in countries such as India, Pakistan and Egypt.
I have to say that I do not believe any longer that in this rapidly changing situation a unilateral renunciation of atomic weapons by Britain would matter a tinker's cuss in discouraging proliferation. Nevertheless, proliferation is profoundly dangerous, perhaps the most dangerous problem we face, and an effective method of preventing the spread of nuclear weapons is more urgent than ever. It can be argued that the risks of nuclear proliferation are exaggerated, and that just as the nuclear stalemate between the United States and the Soviet Union, has given us peace, however uneasy, so too would the dissemination of

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nuclear weapons among the minor countries reduce the incidence of limited wars fought under the nuclear umbrella. This is an argument with some merit. For instance, I suspect that the war between Egypt and Israel would not have broken out if they had possessed atomic bombs.
It is a fallacious argument, for the whole concept of deterrent rests upon the assumption that one is dealing with fundamentally rational human beings, men of civilised anxieties or at least with sufficient imagination and foresight to proceed with infinite care and circumspection. The men of straw who occupy so many positions of power today in the third world cannot be trusted so to act.
The risks of an accidental escalation to nuclear exchange in such countries are immensely higher than they were in the confrontation between President Kennedy and Mr. Krushchev over Cuba. Even if these strictures upon such Governments were to prove totally unwarranted and quite unfair, the sheer profusion of bombs, the ever-growing complexity of delivery systems, security arrangements, all these factors would accelerate inexorably the pressures to the pre-emptive strike.
If nuclear proliferation is to be prevented, and without it a nuclear war becomes certain this century, how is it to be done? Words and sweet reason will not be enough; the lesson of the French and Chinese surely confirms that point. The only answer, difficult and hard though it may be for us to accept, is that the existing nuclear Powers will have to enforce prohibition, and if necessary by force.
It may seem unrealistic to think in terms of the United States and China ever agreeing to co-ordinate their policies, certainly on this. I accept that this is a very long shot, but the alternative is so much worse that we must make a final effort to bring together, once again the Big Five in the Security Council, the old allies of the anti-Fascist war. These are the powers upon whom the founders of the United Nations placed the essential peacekeeping responsibilities and gave them the veto, symbolising the necessity for them to work together if peace were to be maintained.
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We should envisage an immediate conference of the Big Five nuclear Powers. Nothing is more fatuous than to exclude China from all the discussions proceeding on non-proliferation. We should see, if we can, whether a peace-keeping force under the direct control of the Security Council can be established to veto and enforce such prohibition upon any nuclear dissemination. It may sound hopelessly naive even to suggest such a course of action, but against that it can be argued that such action would correspond to the essential great Power interests of the Big Five, including China.
If China is ever to be brought into the comity of nations again, some such gesture, recognising her greatness and overcoming her present petulance is urgently required, for there is a much more ominous possibility that arguments will be used that the time is now when the pre-emptive strike should be used and the parallel will be drawn between the situation in the Rhine in 1936. and what we might or should have done then to prevent a second world war.
9.9 p.m.
Lord Balniel: Because we have had a series of debates in the past on the Middle East, there has been a general understanding among hon. Members that their speeches should not be concentrated on the Middle East where the dramatic events of the last few weeks have taken place. Instead, we have had a series of notable speeches on a variety of subjects by Members who have concentrated on different parts of the world scene. We have had speeches on Greece and the notable speech of the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Dr. John Dunwoody), who has recently returned from Vietnam. The majority of speeches have been concentrated on the Far East. That has been advantageous, because the Far East is the chronically troubled area of the world and there is very little sign that the disruptive influence of China will diminish in the immediate future.
Discussion on the Far East is particularly timely, because it is only in the past fortnight that a new dimension of gravity has been added to the area by the explosion of China's hydrogen bomb and also because only two days ago the Defence White Paper was published with

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the announced decision of the Government to withdraw British Forces completely from the Far East in the mid-1970s. We shall be discussing the Defence White Paper and giving our criticisms of it next week.
The purpose of this debate is, I think, to try to set out the broad framework of foreign policy for which that defence policy should be designed. Defence policy is the servant of foreign policy, although there is all the growing impression that under the present Government foreign policy is the servant of defence policy and defence policy is all too much the servant of the Left wing of the Labour Party. It seems to me rather astonishing that it is only today, after the publication of the Defence White Paper, that for the first time we have the foreign policy rationale of the reasons why we are deciding to withdraw from the Far East.
Looking at the broad framework of foreign policy, it seems to me that the major emphasis of our economic, foreign and defence policy should be placed on Europe. It is in Europe that there is the greatest opportunity for economic growth. It is in Europe that there is scope for our industries and for technological advance. It is in Europe that by creating a greater political and economic unity we will be able to achieve for Britain and for Europe as a whole a greater voice in world affairs and a greater influence in global strategy.
It is also in Europe that our immediate security interest primarily lies. The defence of our country must be given the highest priority. It is absolutely right that the main weight of our defence and foreign policy should be on the role which we play in N.A.T.O. I must however immediately enter a proviso. The N.A.T.O. shield has been held firmly during the postwar years and, as a result, there has been a relaxation of tension in Europe. We look forward to moving from this relaxation of tension to the next stage—to improving the climate of political opinion within Central Europe. We look forward to better relations with Eastern Europe.
As a result of holding the shield, the Russian pressure against Europe has been deflected. It has been turned aside to softer targets—for instance to the Middle East—where they think that they can ob-
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tain greater political dividends. But in the relaxed atmosphere which exists in Europe at the moment it is very easy to forget the cliché but, nontheless, truism that peace is indivisible. It is very easy to forget that just as every South-East Asian country was ultimately involved in the last European war, so the future, well-being and peace of Europe is inextricably involved in the peace and stability of the Middle East and Far East. It is easy to forget that, but we do it at our peril.
In a debate on international affairs, we should remember that Europe cannot only be defended west of Suez. Our safety does not depend only upon our troops in Germany. It depends, perhaps, even more upon the nuclear deterrent which is held by the United States of America and it depends upon the success of our global strategy.
None the less, in Europe we share the broad objectives of the Government in seeking to secure entry to the Community. It was not very long ago, admittedly to our surprise, that the Prime Minister announced that the time and tide were right for entry into the Community. As a result of his private consultations, about which we have no information, with General de Gaulle and the leaders of the Community, the Prime Minister decided on 8th May to announce Britain's application to enter the Community.
We have had lengthy debates on Britain's application to enter the Community and I have no intention of going over the same ground again, except to make two points in the light of the Prime Minister's declared determination to keep the British public informed and to sustain the momentum towards the Community.
My first point concerns public information. There has been an interesting article, which has been widely read and commented on, in The Times, written, I understand, by Mr. Jay—I am not sure whether it is Mr. Jay senior or junior—giving figures concerning the effect on our balance of payments and on our trade and industry were we to enter the Community. Those figures conflict substantially with the figures given by the Prime Minister.
I would like the Under-Secretary in replying to the debate to explain the logic

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of the Government's having issued a White Paper explaining the agricultural implications for this country of entry to the Community and another White Paper explaining the constitutional implications of entry to the Community, but not issuing a White Paper on the trade and industrial implications for this country of entry to the Community. I understand that such a White Paper has been in draft for a long time. When will it be presented to the House?
Secondly, I would like to make a point concerning momentum towards our entry to the Community. We have seen the unedifying spectacle of the dismissal of the Parliamentary Private Secretaries who had the temerity to disagree with the decision of the Government to enter the Community, but we have not had the dismissal of the Cabinet Ministers who are known to disagree with the Government's policy—the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Agriculture.
That creates an unimpressive picture of the Prime Minister's authority over his Cabinet. Admittedly this does not worry us. What worries us is the effect which it has in Europe and on momentum towards Europe and the policies which are pursued by the Departments in question. There has been no momentum in the Department responsible for agriculture towards amending our agricultural support system towards a levy system such as is applied by the Community and which, we think, is desirable for British agriculture in its own right.
There has been no harmonisation of the social services so as to conform with the best of the social services on the Continent of Europe. There has been no harmonisation of fiscal policies so as to get rid of our obsolete taxation structure and move towards the system which is being accepted by the rest of the Continent the added value tax. There has been no action by, for example, the Board of Trade, so as to achieve a harmonisation with the patent law so as to bring it closer to the rest of Europe.
As I see it, one of the main purposes of entering the Community is to achieve a stronger Europe to redress the balance with the other side of the Atlantic, so that, gradually, Europe will become a
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more equal partner with the United States. This means that Europe will play a greater part than it is at the moment in defending itself and should become less dependent on the United States.
The very fact of our dependence on the United States for our defence is largely due to the weakness which flows from the division of Europe into its present two—or, if one includes Eastern Europe, three—separate Power groupings. But it is not our aim just to strengthen Europe and see the most advanced industrial countries of the world retiring comfortably behind a customs barrier. Our policy is certainly to create a strong economic unit and to benefit our own people from this strong unit. But it is also our aim to create this stronger unit so as to enable us to carry out our moral obligations of aid, help and trade to the under-developed countries and the Commonwealth.
The French Government's reaction to the British application to join the Community has been to reiterate that Britain is still separated from Europe by entirely different and conflicting interests. The President of France said:
"By comparison with the motives which brought the Six together, one can easily understand why England, which is not a Continental country, which, because of the Commonwealth and its own island status has distant commitments, and which is tied to the United States by all sorts of special agreements, could not merge into a Community of fixed dimensions and rigorous rules".
I do not think that we should be mealymouthed in repudiating this argument. It is certainly true that we have close ties with the United States and I trust that we shall preserve and strengthen them. It is also however equally true that the rest of Europe has very close ties with the United States. Indeed, the very freedom of Europe depends on the willingness of the United States to assist in our defence. It is equally true that we have distant commitments and treaty obligations in the Gulf, Singapore and Malaysia. We have treaty obligations to come to their aid and to defend their freedom and independence if they are threatened by external aggression.
Britain's interest in the Gulf and the Far East is an interest in peace and stability. It is surely exactly the interest

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which Europe itself has, with its investments in the Far East. It is just as much in Europe's, as in Britain's interest, that Malaysia, Sabah, Sarawak and Kuwait should be defended against external aggression. I emphasise this point about Europe being outward looking because Europe should reassert its influence in world affairs. This influence can be exerted in several ways—by trade, by aid, as a peace-keeping influence in the United Nations or as a peace-keeping influence through our alliances in the Far East.
I reiterate a point so ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths). If Britain becomes introspective, if she re. tires into her shell, if she becomes solely concerned with the level of social security benefits, important though they are—though here, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) said, I hear too many echoes of the 1930s --if she withdraws from the Far East prematurely, there is a real danger that this isolationism could easily awaken a similar echo in the United States.
As the Americans look at Europe at the moment they see three things happening simultaneously. They see France violently attacking the United States for all her policies. They see N.A.T.O.—to which:hey have contributed so much, despite their burdens in Asia, and in Vietnam in particular—in danger of being damaged by the withdrawal of one of the countries that it was designed to protect. They now also see Britain not only limiting her commitments in the Far East—which they, and I, would certainly understand—but proposing to withdraw completely from the Far East, leaving them alone to face Communist aggression before the Asian regional defence groupings have been established.
The folly of right hon. and hon. Members opposite is in putting a date to the time of withdrawal from the Far East. In doing so, they are repeating the very folly they have committed in Aden. If they must withdraw our Forces—and one can certainly understand a limitation on the amount we can undertake—it would be much better to fix the time of our withdrawal, not to a date but to the conditions that apply in the Far East. It would be better to tie our withdrawal to the advances being made by the Asian
2602
countries themselves to stand up to the Communist aggression they might have to face.
I fear that the consequences of this may be that the United States may increasingly preoccupy herself with Asian affairs and allow her links with Europe to languish. If we become introspective and isolationist, there is an increasing danger that the Americans will attempt to settle the world's affairs, and our affairs, directly with the Soviet Union, and ultimately with China, and that the voice of Europe and of Britain will be of diminished influence.
The Foreign Secretary referred in some considerable detail to China. Personally, I am not convinced that China's prime foreign policy objective is territorial expansion. Equally significant for China is ideological expansion. Her purpose is not so much territorial expansion for herself as the creation of the maximum disruption in the Far East in order to achieve her ideological objectives. For instance, I believe that her attack on India was not so much for the purpose of extending her own frontiers as to humiliate India in the eyes of the non-committed nations.
China, unlike the Soviet Union, is prepared to take the most fantastic risks with her own security and with world peace. By her actions, she has drawn on to the Asian mainland, and close to her own borders, a massive American army. At the very same time as she has taken that action, she has been prepared to rupture her relationship with the Soviet Union and draw Soviet armies down to her northern border. At the very same time as she has done that, she has been prepared to insult Indian and other Asian diplomats. In passing, I join with the Foreign Secretary in paying tribute to the conduct and the quality of our British diplomats in China. China's methods are designed so that she does not become directly involved herself in conflict; her methods are subversion. We see this subversion being undertaken, for instance, in Hong Kong.
Here I also pay tribute to the firmness and restraint shown by the Hong Kong administration. China's methods involve encouraging civil war, be it in Korea, be it in Laos or, of rather a different nature, in Vietnam. Her methods are to encourage revolution, to set one Asian

2603
country against another Asian country, for instance the war between Indonesia and Malaysia. As my right hon. Friend said in a very telling phrase, her methods are to stop all evolutionary progress, be it in economics or in politics. Her purpose is to create economic and political chaos in Asia. Out of all this what she hopes to gain is the ideological victory which will give her the leadership of the Communist world.
Here I come to Vietnam. Of course because of shortness of time I am greatly telescoping my argument. If Hanoi wins in Vietnam, China will get the leadership of the Communist world. The so-called bourgeois Communist countries, the more responsible Communist countries, which follow the leadership of the Soviet Union will have been outbid by the more revolutionary leadership which is being given by China. If something different from victory is the outcome and some form of settlement compatible with the dignity and honour for the South Vietnamese people can be obtained, then one might perhaps foresee in the long term that this might be a turning point as significant for China as Cuba was for the Soviet Union. It might well lead them to more restrained policies.
Mr. Heffer Mr. Heffer rose—
Lord Balniel: I cannot give way. I could do so only at the expense of the hon. Member's hon. Friend the Under-Secretary.
One of the most remarkable features of China's foreign policy has been how unsuccessful it has been. It has failed to stir up revolution in Africa and South America. China failed to summon the Afro-Asian conference she set out to achieve. She failed to defend the Indonesian Communist Party, the third largest Communist Party in the world. She has horrified the uncommitted nations of the world by her attack on India. Now, as a result of the failures of her external policy, China is rent in twain by the Maoists and anti-Maoists. [Interruption.] It is very easy for an hon. Member to say that the influence of China is not all that significant. If he were to visit the Far East he would find that countries, surrounding China are deeply fearful of China's intentions. The events of the past fortnight—the explosion of a hydrogen
2604
bomb by China—has sent a tremor of shock and worry throughout Asia. It would be preferable if the Government's policy was to concentrate on building up Asian regional defence arrangements to tie in with their decision to withdraw, rather than putting a date on the time for withdrawal. I think this is a blunder which in the long term they will regret.
Finally, I turn to the general aspect of the conduct of foreign affairs. This week we celebrated the one-thousandth day of the Labour Government's conduct of affairs. It is right that we should try to weigh up their achievements in foreign affairs. I recognise that hon. Members opposite may look upon me as partisan and I should therefore like to quote from one of the best known independent newspapers on the Continent of Europe, Die Welt, which said the other day:
"No European statesman has been so active this year as Wilson, but none—and this is the distressing outcome—can gaze on a foreign policy lying in such a pile of ruins."
I do not know whether it is lying in a pile of ruins. I simply do not know what the Government's foreign policy is.
Last year, the Government were opposed to entry into the Common Market. The Prime Minister was determined to buy his food in the cheapest markets of the world, something which he knew was quite incompatible with the very structure of the Common Market. This year, it is the Government's prime foreign policy objective to enter the Common Market. Two years ago, the Prime Minister announced that it was his purpose "to give up the nuclear business, or, as we say, the nuclear pretence", and we were to spend the hundreds of millions of pounds saved—those were his words—on developing a conventional Navy. What has happened? We have decided to abolish the aircraft carrier and we are pursuing the policy of building submarines armed with a nuclear capacity.
Finally, not very long ago the Prime Minister said that the maintenance of bases east of Suez should be regarded as "a specific and invaluable contribution to the Alliance". But this week we have been informed that the Government are abandoning the bases in Malaysia and Singapore in the mid-1970s.
I do not know whether a weathercock can lie in a pile of ruins. All I can say

2605
is that I am not deeply impressed by the Government's foreign policy.
9.37 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. William Rodgers): Despite that rather irrelevant and aggressive ending which led the noble Lord the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel) to overrun his time, I thought that a large part of his speech was thoughtful and coherent, although that does not mean that I agree with it. It was inevitable that a debate of this kind should round up a number of relatively loosely related matters. I am sure that many hon. Members will continue to have it in mind that the House might one day devise means which will enable it more effectively to study how Governments make their foreign policy and to probe the working of the Executive, but that is a matter for the House itself.
Meanwhile, we have had a useful debate, although sometimes more about defence than foreign policy. I shall try as best I can to answer at least some of the separate questions which have been asked, although I must apologise for inevitable omissions. For example, I cannot on this occasion deal with Kenya, Ethiopia and Somalia, as I was asked to do by the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton). Perim must wait until Monday morning. It would be better to deal with the two personal cases which were raised individually in correspondence, or in some other way. Nor can I say anything about the very interesting speech on nonproliferation which came at the end of the debate from my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks).
Since 1945, Britain, in common with a number of Western European countries, has been obliged to adjust to a major change in her international rôle. It has been painful, as questions of status and presige always end to be. One of the most encouraging things about the debate and about public attitudes to international problems over the last year has been the exent to which this need for adjustment has been generally, if not quite always, recognised.
It is a truism to say that we no longer bask in the sunshine of mid-Victorian England when, as the workshop of the world and with a vast Empire, we both
2606
exercised unrivalled power and possessed unprecedented interests and commitments. Nevertheless, in practice it has not been easy to reconcile ourselves to this hard fact and to find a reduced but constructive rôle for Britain which would draw upon our experience and serve our current interests. But I think it is now very well understood that our resources simply do not permit us to stretch ourselves throughout the world accepting special obligations which place a crushing burden upon us.
Of course, there can be arguments about the extent of obligations and how crushing the burden may be. There can also be different views about priorities. The hon. Members for Leicester, South-East (Mr. Peel) and for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) this afternoon seemed to want more defence spending, while my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) in a powerful speech demanded more for aid. But at the end of the day our foreign policy would lack credibility if it were based on an unrealistic assumption about our economic power or the willingness of our own people to sacrifice living standards to which they were entitled for a heroic world rôle.
There is also recognition of a change in the international context in which Britain operates. It is simply not possible for any country, however powerful—here I include the United States and the Soviet Union—to get their own way irrespective of the wishes of smaller and much less well endowed nations. On the one hand, world opinion is a reality. On the other, shifts of attitude and loyalty are constant. The transformation in the post-war period itself has been dramatic. There were 51 founding members of the United Nations. By 1957 this had grown to 82 and there are 122 today.
The empires of the great European Powers have been virtually liquidated in the last quarter century. Many new nations are still seeking a proper sense of direction, uncertain where their true interests lie. Whether we like it or not, in these ways the limits for Britain are set. There are times when we may feel frustrated by our impotence. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) expressed it in much

2607
of his speech. But we will make wiser decisions and serve our people best if we accept realities. There is no room for nostalgia.
Today we have discussed the influence which goes with economic power, military assistance and, to a lesser extent, with aid. May I add perhaps a little cautiously one other factor on the credit side of what Britain can offer. We should not wholly ignore the help which we can give to our friends and allies, and the contribution we can make to a peaceful solution of world problems out of our accumulated experience of diplomacy.
We have all criticised Britain's diplomats from time to time, and certainly I have done so myself. On this side of the House in particular we have been sceptical about old-world ambassadors apparently drawn from a single social stratum, more preoccupied, so it seemed, with pomp and circumstance than with the unglamorous aspects of trade and aid. In the past perhaps we have not always been wrong, but I am sure that it is very much the case today that, for the most part, our representatives abroad are shrewd and energetic men, close to the problems of the country in which they live and applying their considerable abilities to understanding them. We should not discount the extent to which we can usefully add in this way to the pool of knowledge about the behaviour of nations and their relations with each other, and it has got nothing to do with power as hon. Members opposite so often understand it.
May I now turn to some of the separate points which have been raised. The noble Lord the Member for Hertford who wound up for the Opposition, had a number of remarks to make about the Common Market and I agree with the tone of much of what he said on this subject. His general remarks on Europe were most interesting and certainly bear careful reflection. May I say a word or two about the progress which we have been making since our debate in May.
It may sometimes have seemed that this progress was not as fast as some had hoped, but I am sure that we are moving in the right direction, and we remain determined to pursue our application with the very greatest vigour. We are encour-
2608
aged, as all hon. Members who have travelled abroad lately on the Continent of Europe must be, by the support which we have received from by far the greater part of opinion in Europe itself.
The next step now is for the Six. The Commission's opinion on our application will, we understand, be available at the end of September, so that the Council of Ministers of the Six should be in a position to begin considering it early in October. We hope to be able to start negotiations with the Six soon after that. For our part, we have made clear that we want negotiations to be started as soon as possible, and we shall continue to impress this on the Community.
The noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), in commenting on the Middle East, accused the Government of lack of idealism, and he referred particularly to arms. Our position has been made clear in the House on several occasions, but it may help if I spend a moment in restating precisely what we have done, because the noble Lord's remarks were misleading, as one of my hon. Friends pointed out in an intervention.
It is not true that Her Majesty's Government have never proposed a moratorium on the supply of arms to the Middle East. On 6th June, the day after the fighting started, the Prime Minister told the House that, pending the outcome of consultations with other suppliers of arms to the Middle East, we were suspending our further shipments. On 8th June, he reported that we had had no positive response from the Soviet Government and it was clear that, for the time being there was no immediate prospect of a general embargo. Although, as he then announced, we reverted to our normal practice of scrutinising applications for arms in each case, my right hon. Friend made clear that we should do so particularly carefully in the present situation. He emphasised also that, in Her Majesty's Government's view, an agreement on limitation of arms must be an essential element in a Middle East settlement. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary underlined the same point in the speech which he made to the General Assembly on 21st June.
To be effective, an embargo or limitation on arms supplies would have to be

2609
applied by all the major suppliers of arms to the area, and we shall continue to work for effective arms control.
Viscount Lambton: Will the hon. Gentleman say for how long we discontinued supplying arms to the Middle East?
Mr. Rodgers: We discontinued until it became clear that we would not get the embargo for which we were seeking.
Viscount Lambton: How many days?
Mr. Rodgers: I must go on now to the rest of my speech. The noble Lord the Member for Hertford did not give way at all.
My hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) made a passionate and moving speech about Greece, and affairs in Greece were referred to also by several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick). Both here and in another place, and in quite voluminous correspondence with hon. Members and the public, we have expressed our sense of shock and our concern at what has happened in Greece. Our ambassador in Athens has made our views plain to Greek Ministers. He has told them that Her Majesty's Government have taken note of statements of intent by the new regime regarding political evolution towards democratic and parliamentary institutions. He has made clear also that recent events have placed a strain on Anglo-Greek relations and that we hope that advances towards the restoration of democratic procedures and civil liberties will make our relations easier.
Mr. Winnick: Have we issued a warning against any military coup organised by the new rulers in Greece against Cyprus, a Commonwealth country?
Mr. Rodgers: I think that we have made clear exactly how we see the present position, and our anxiety that the change in Greece might have any undesirable repercussions on Cyprus.
I should like to say a brief word about aid. I am only too conscious that in the time available I shall do a disservice to a very thoughtful and constructive speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West. Of course, we attach the greatest importance to overseas
2610
development, and I think that this can fairly be seen from the activities described by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development in the White Paper of January. I know that people were disappointed about the reduction in the aid programme this year, but the reasons—the need to reduce all forms of overseas expenditure—are well known and accepted, if not by everyone.
I note what my hon. Friend said about figures. Our aid in 1966 was the highest ever, totalling £209 million, and its terms have greatly improved over the past two years. In 1966, 90 per cent. of new loan agreements concluded were interest-free. I understand entirely those who press for an increase in aid. But it already has a special priority and will continue to receive it, whether or not we entirely satisfy my hon. Friend or ourselves.
My right hon. Friend said this afternoon that he did not intend to anticipate next week's defence debate, and I am in the same position. A number of speeches today dealt with aspects of defence policy, and discussions of the problems of South East Asia have gone a good deal wider. I understand that those speeches include one by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson), which I am afraid I largely missed. I do not complain that the speeches ranged so wide, but merely ask that hon. Members should not expect me to be drawn.
The typical and thoughtful speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Horn-church (Mr. Alan Lee Williams) was one that ranged wide. There is room for legitimate discussions about developments in the next 10 to 15 years in South East Asia, and the part Britain can play. As is often said in the House, the tragedy is that the whole of South East Asia has been overlain with the war in Vietnam and its consequences. Incidentally, I was very glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne said what he did about Dr. Evans and the British medical team in the children's hospital in Saigon. He spoke from personal experience, and from personal experience I can endorse all that he said. They deserve the highest tribute from everyone.
Having lately returned from a visit to South East Asia, I agree with hon. Members who say that by and large we are respected there. There is much good will.

2611
As my right hon. Friend said this afternoon, defence decisions do not mean that we are no longer concerned with the area and the welfare of our friends. In addition to the aid which we have given and will give, including that to Singapore and Malaysia, there is a whole range of contacts we can have at the levels of trade and educational and cultural relations. For example, there is a great demand for English teaching throughout the area. This may seem trifling, but it is not when we fully consider the implications. I know from my own observation that the work of the British Council is most important, and the B.B.C. is also making a very useful contribution in language teaching. These are not very dramatic demonstrations of power, but they are needed and appreciated. I also hope that British business men will increasingly see prospects in South East Asia which will be to our mutual advantage.
At the beginning of my speech I mentioned the remarkable changes in relative power and the room to exercise it which has occurred in the past 20 to 25 years. The pace of change has not slowed down. We do not operate in a static situation. For example, ten years ago at the time of the Bandung Conference the newly independent nations of Asia and Africa declared their intention of working together to provide a third non-aligned and anti-imperialist bloc. Subsequently we have seen evidence of this co-operation, particularly at the United Nations. But as time goes by the nations of Africa and Asia are recognising that the harmonisation of policies needs to be justified by more than the newly-won independence that they have in common.
There is evidence—I think that hon. Members who frequently visit Asia may be prepared to confirm this from personal observation—that the countries of Asia with their ancient civilisations feel that they have at least as much in common with the West as with Africa. I do not mean by this—I hope I shall not be misunderstood—that they wish to abandon non-alignment. Nor do I mean that we should seek to push them into new alliances, even of an indigenous and regional character. It is for the people of Asia to make up their own minds about the
2612
direction and pace of their development, despite what was said frequently from the other side of the House today.
But I think it would be a mistake to assume a fundamental resentment against the West. As I said a moment ago, there is goodwill and eagerness for cultural and economic co-operation for peaceful purposes, and we must not—and we shall not—turn our backs on it. This movement is part of an increasing realisation that countries with acute problems of development should not be thrown into wide-reaching associations where practical self-interest takes second place to sloganising and propaganda. As my right hon. Friend said earlier today, recent events in Indonesia—which I was able to visit—are an example of this.
Of course, the pursuit of self-interest is not the solution to world problems. All countries must recognise their interdependence and the extent to which peaceful international relations involve a degree of give and take. The richer nations have a special obligation of making resources available to relieve world poverty and stimulate self-sustaining growth. In addition, as my right hon. Friend made a special point of saying this afternoon—here I appreciate the remarks of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu)—obligations to the United Nations very properly place a restraint upon sovereignty. Nevertheless, I am sure that there is a greater chance of achieving a stable and peaceful world as ideology recedes. The post-war years have so far been dominated by ideological conflict of one kind or another. There is reason to hope that in the years ahead—except in the case of China, and certainly there we cannot tell—that ideology will be a less potent factor in international relations.
Looking wider than some of the problems that we have discussed today, the problem of the growing population—it is at present increasing at 70 million a year—and food supplies is terrifying. It can be overcome only if all the nations devote a great deal more of their energy and resources to this humanitarian and peaceful objective and get away from futile political squabbles and the vastly wasteful military expenditure which goes with them.

2613
I hope that Britain will be able to play an increasing part in pointing international co-operation towards a solution to this great fundamental problem of world poverty. We shall play a part from our own resources, and we shall co-operate with others. Britain's rôle in the mid-1960s and beyond will be different in many respects from even ten years ago, but it is a legitimate ambition to continue to contribute constructively to world affairs. With an appropriate sense of proportion, I am sure that we can succeed.
Mr. Ioan L. Evans: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the Proceedings on the Greenwich Hospital Bill and the Welsh Language Bill [Lords] may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Whitlock.]

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

CIVIL DEFENCE
10.1 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): I beg to move,
That the Civil Defence (Public Protection) Regulations 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 22nd June, be approved.
These Regulations are necessary because of the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 14th December, when he said that in future local authority employees would be asked to play a bigger part in helping local authorities to carry out their civil defence functions.
One of the main features of our civil defence preparations is the provision of an emergency system of control. Its purpose is initially to direct life-saving operations and so subsequently to provide a framework of civil administration to marshal and co-ordinate the use of available resources to the best advantage of the community.
The local authority controls are an in-integral part of this system which provides, in a broad sense, for the carrying on of government in war. It is right that local authorities should arrange to discharge their civil defence responsibilities so far as they can through the medium of their own staffs, so enabling the maximum use to be made of their knowledge and experience gained in the peace time administration of local services.
Our main purpose in the Regulations is to make explicit the duty of local authorities to train their staffs in peace time to help in manning the control system in emergency. This training is necessary since the circumstances after nuclear attack would inevitably involve changes in the scope and nature of the duties of local authority staffs.
We recognise that local authority staffs may not, without assistance, be able to man all the controls at all levels and, as my right hon. Friend said in December, local authorities will be able to continue to look to members of the Civil Defence Corps for the invaluable help they have always provided. These Regulations place the function of training local authority staffs on the councils of counties, county boroughs, London boroughs, the City and certain specified county districts.
2616
In carrying out their functions under the Regulations local authorities are required to comply with any direction given by my right hon. Friend. If the draft Regulations are approved, my right hon. Friend will issue directions in the form of a circular to local authorities about the training of staff. Apart from the express provision for training, the draft Regulations follow broadly the Civil Defence (Public Protection) Regulations, 1949, which they will replace. We have taken the opportunity to make amendments where necessary to bring the 1949 Regulations up to date.
Perhaps I should very briefly draw attention to particular points in the draft Regulations on which the House might find it helpful to have some explanation. Regulation 1, with the First Schedule, will confer on the specified local authorities the civil defence functions set out in the Regulation. It authorises the making of plans and the taking of necessary preparatory measures whether or not an attack has actually occurred. It requires the local authorities to maintain a system of reporting and control for the carrying out of life-saving measures and measures for survival. The Regulation also confers the functions of rescuing trapped persons, taking certain protective measures against the effects of radiation and biological or chemical warfare, and instructing and advising the public on the effects of hostile attack and on protective measures which they could take. This would include, for example, the giving of advice, in a period of tension, about the preparation of fall-out rooms in houses. I have already mentioned the remaining function conferred by the regulation of training members of local authority staffs. I should perhaps add that there are other regulations, which have been in existence for some years, requiring local authorities to provide training in civil defence for their staffs.
Regulation 2 requires, as I have said earlier, that local authorities, in carrying out their functions under the Regulations, shall comply with any direction that may be given by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
The House will wish to know that the local authority associations and the National and Local Government Officers' Association have been consulted on the

2617
draft Regulations, and I would like to thank them for the help that they have given and the co-operation that they have shown. The associations representing the authorities, on whom the draft Regulations confer functions, do not dissent from the proposals. The National and Local Government Officers' Association is content with the draft Regulations on the footing that it will for local authorities to seek the voluntary co-operation of their staffs in this training. The draft Regulations do not seek to place any obligation upon local authority staffs.
The draft Regulations, together with the draft Regulations which have been laid before Parliament by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, for which approval is also to be sought today, are necessary to enable local authorities to implement fully the new arrangements for local authority civil defence which the Home Secretary outlined in the House in December. As he said then, the Government believe that by carrying out these measures we shall retain, on the most economical basis, a pattern of civil defence preparations which, there were a nuclear attack on this country, would enable some lives to be saved. In the light of the full consultations that we have had with the interests concerned, I am satisfied that these draft Regulations will give the local authorities the powers they need and I commend them to the House for approval.
10.10 p.m.
Sir David Renton: The right hon. Lady's very clear explanation of these Regulations omitted some essential facts about the Government's change of policy, and that was very regrettable. As the right hon. Lady said, these Regulations implement the changes of policy announced by the Home Secretary on 14th December last, but we consider those changes to be gravely mistaken. For a saving of only £1 million, there is to be a reduction from 122,000 to 75,000 or 80,000 people in the strength of the Civil Defence Corps. Eighty thousand people, however well trained and organised, are nothing like enough to provide even a skeleton organisation to prepare a nation the size of ours for nuclear war.
2618
The Defence White Paper published this week proposes various reductions in the Armed Forces, but I am glad to say it leaves intact our contribution to maintaining the nuclear deterrent. But in making this drastic reduction of the Civil Defence Corps the Government seem to have forgotten the basic principle that for the nuclear deterrent to be effective it must be credible so that those who might attack us must assume that we would retaliate, and they assume that because we are prepared to care for the survivors if the worst should happen.
One reason why not only this country for the past 17 years, but also all the N.A.T.O. countries and Russia have maintained civil defence organisations—and theirs is even stronger than ours—is in order to make plain the credibility of the deterrent. But when such a drastic reduction as is proposed is put forward, the credibility of the deterrent is necessarily weakened, and hence the importance of this matter.
I do not blame the right hon. Lady, because she and I waited for two whole mornings for the matter to come on, we spent one whole morning waiting for a Bill on the Welsh language to be completed—but it is regrettable that we should find ourselves at this late hour, after three all-night sittings on Government business, discussing a matter which is of great importance to the country.
Almost as bad as the reduction in the number of civil defence volunteers is a matter over which the right hon. Lady skated very lightly—the destruction of the Civil Defence Corps as we know it. That corps has provided an effective body of trained volunteers inspired by esprit de corps, and it is now to be replaced by local government officers who must be volunteers and cannot be compelled, who are to fill as many places as possible at all levels of this depleted Organisation, the gaps being filled by volunteer members of the public. It is idle to pretend that in these circumstances the volunteer spirit will be quite the same.
I join the right hon. Lady in paying tribute to the volunteers who have given their time, their effort, their good will and their skill to the work Of the Civil Defence Corps. I should also like to join with her in paying tribute to those,

2619
whether local government officers or members of the public, who will help in future, but it is a most regrettable and unfortunate change.
We consider that later this year, I hope early next Session, there should be a general debate on civil defence, a debate in Government time. There has not been such a debate for a very long time, not since the present Government were elected.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Nor long before that.
Sir D. Renton: Civil defence debates have never been frequent, but we have nów run for as long a period as we ought without such a debate. The last major reorganisation of the Civil Defence Corps was announced in 1962. I remember that we had a debate in the year in which the changes proposed were discussed, and there has been only one debate since then in this House, although there have been debates in another place. The time has come for another debate in this House. Perhaps it would be convenient to have that debate when the present reorganisation has taken place and we are in a position to take stock. Meanwhile we have to consider these Regulations.
The Regulations are merely formal instruments for carrying out the new policy. It is the policy that we object to, not the Regulations per se. These Regulations require affirmative Resolutions, but I certainly would not ask the House to vote against them or to delay them even further. There has already been enough delay and dithering by the Government over civil defence programmes.
Consider the position. On 29th July, 1965, the Secretary of State for Defence forecast that civil defence would be reorganised. On 14th December, 1966, the Home Secretary announced the change of policy with the depletion of the Civil Defence Corps. Early this month these Regulations were laid before Parliament in draft, and they are not due to come into operation until 1st September. I understand that the Government, having delayed so long, are now to have an almightly rush because I gather that the reorganisation is to be completed by the end of September, although the circulars
2620
have not yet been sent to local authorities telling what has to be done and how to do it.
Therefore, I hope that the Minister of State will tell us when the administrative circulars will be sent to local authorities and when the reorganisation is due to be completed. It is quite clear that local authorities will in future have a greater responsibility for training than in the past and I would like to ask some questions about this.
First, what is to happen to the Civil Defence Staff College and to the Home Office training establishments? Will they continue to perform for local authorities the functions that they have so far performed for the Civil Defence Corps? If not, why not? Secondly, as local authority employees will have to undergo training—those which are not already trained—will they undergo that training in their ordinary working time, or will they have to give up their spare time in order to do it? Thirdly, who is to pay for the training of these employees and other volunteers? Presumably both the ratepayers and taxpayers will do so, but we should be told in what proportions the cost will be borne.
To the extent that taxpayers have to bear the cost, will the Treasury grant be covered by specific grants for civil defence or will the cost merely be a factor brought into the calculation when the rate support grant is being fixed biennially.
Fourthly what is to happen to the Regional Control Headquarters which are such a vital part of the communications system upon which the whole civil defence set-up is based? So far they have been built under Home Office estimates and operated by staff appointed by the Home Office. It has been a Home Office responsibility. Looking at the rather broad terms of the Regulations which we are discussing, I see that this could be the function of local authorities
"to make plans for controlling and coordinating action necessary as a result of hostile attack."
Looked at very strictly, that would seem to cover the work done by Regional Control Headquarters. But that may not be the intention, although it could be said that the Regulation could be read in that way. Would the right hon. Lady tell us what is to happen to these headquarters

2621
and who will pay for them? Will the local authorities be expected to man them? If so, the same questions of cost will arise.
My fifth question relates to the sections of civil defence to be operated in future. I understand that, although the local authorities are required under the Regulations to make plans for rescuing people from damaged buildings and debris, there is to be no rescue section in future. If that is so, how is the rescue work to be done?
How many people will there be in the warden section, which obviously must be retained because it is the most important part of civil defence? With the depleted numbers which will be available in the Civil Defence Corps, how many people will each civil defence warden be responsible for getting in touch with and advising in peacetime?
The Women's Voluntary Service has played a vital part in both the welfare section and the warden section, but what part will they play in future? Up to now their co-operation has been vital and splendid, and I hope that their valuable services will be used in future.
Finally, can the right hon. Lady add to our present meagre knowledge of the part to be played in civil defence by the Territorial Army? In particular, it would he helpful if she could tell us under whose command locally in each borough and county the local Territorial Army unit will come when that unit plays such part as it may be required to play, about which we should like to know more. The question of local responsibility could be vital, and if it is not clarified it could be embarrassing.
Unless we get clear answers to these questions—and there are many others which could be asked—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but I do not think that questions about the Territorial Army can be raised on this Statutory Instrument, which merely deals with the local authorities' responsibilities.
Sir D. Renton: I would not wish to argue about your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but the right hon. Lady, in presenting the Regulations, opened the
2622
matter fairly broadly with various background statements about the change of policy which made the Regulations necessary. It seemed to me that we could not understand the full import of the Regulations unless we had answers to the questions which I have put, including the question about the Territorial Army.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Minister of State may have been out of order, but it is clear to me that questions relating to the Territorial Army do not arise under these Regulations. The debate must be confined to the responsibilities of the local authorities. The fact that the right hon. Lady may have been out of order does not justify any other right hon. or hon. Member in pursuing matters relating to the Territorial Army.
Miss Bacon: I do not think that I mentioned the Territorial Army.
Sir D. Renton: The right hon. Lady did not mention the Territorial Army. Had she done so, I might not have had to put my question. However, I accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and will pursue the matter on some other suitable occasion.
Unless we get a clear answer to those questions, it will be impossible to get even a broad idea of the practical effect of the Regulations and of the way in which this very big change in public policy will work out.
10.25 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I hope that the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) will not take it amiss if I say that he reminds me of the Mad Hatter asking questions of Alice in Wonderland. The subject which we are debating lends itself to a good deal of self-deception. I do not ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to take that from me. I refer him to what his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) said in the House on 4th March, 1965:
"The Chinese may survive"
a nuclear exchange;
"masses in Asia and Africa may survive; for aught I know, the Russians and the Americans, after having suffered immeasurable damage, might after a fashion survive. I do not know, but one thing I know, and that is that we would not survive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1965; Vol. 707, c. 1650.]

2623
The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone was entirely right. Of course, he waited until he was out of office to get right about it, but better late than never. He was uttering the truth as it is known to people without the necessity of having to provide some sort of pretence and who recognise that in a nuclear exchange the possibility of survival of life on this Island is remote indeed. That is not to say that no provision should be made, but those are facts which are widely recognised.
As the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire has said, the Regulations transfer responsibility for important civil defence functions from central to local government. In doing so, some money is saved. It is saved by increasing the process of pretence. The functions are devolved upon local authorities but, as far as I can see, no provision is made for them to be carried out. They are transferred theoretically rather than practically.
The Regulations provide that local authorities shall collect intelligence about the results of hostile attack, control and co-ordinate action and rescue persons from buildings, protect people against the toxic effects of radiation resulting from nuclear warfare and from biological and chemical warfare, and instruct, advise and protect the public. I wish them luck, but I wonder how they will do it.
I hope that everyone knows that local authorities are not prepared to do, and that it is doubtful whether they can do, anything of the sort. This is an exercise in make-believe and we have to ask ourselves precisely why the charade is being, and has been, performed.
The Act from which the Regulations stem is an Act of 1948. It is, therefore, a pre-H-bomb age act. There was reason to believe that during the A-bomb age, in the fission rather than the fusion era, some possibility of survival on these Islands existed, but with the arrival of the H-bomb the possibility to survive has been recognised on both Front Benches—this is not something which I have invented or a campaign on the part of the C.N.D.; it is a recognition by both Front Benches—as something which hardly
2624
exists. I will quote my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on this presently.
We have to ask ourselves why we go on suggesting in this age that life in this country can continue after a nuclear attack. That is legitimate when discussing the Regulations, because they are for the purpose of trying to preserve life after a nuclear attack as well as after a conventional attack.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not think that when discussing the Regulations it is in order to speculate whether we can survive a nuclear attack.
Mr. Jenkins: With respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if local authorities are to take
"… measures for the protection of human beings against the toxic effects of radiation resulting from nuclear warfare …"
it must be legitimate to ask whether they have any possibility of fulfilling these functions. I am suggesting that local authorities are being charged with functions which, in the nature of things, they are incapable of carrying out. These Regulations ask these authorities to do the impossible. I therefore ask for your permission to explain why, in my view, the House should not agree to these Regulations and why local authorities will nót be able to implement them.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman cannot do that. To do so would be a criticism of the parent Act of 1948. The hon. Gentleman cannot discuss the merits of that Measure. He can only discuss the Regulations, which relate to the functions of local authorities.
Mr. Jenkins: In that case I will limit my remarks to the functions of local authorities and explain why these functions cannot be carried out by them, any more than by the Corps which, we are told, will assist them to carry out these tasks.
Those who stay behind in leading positions in the Services tend to consist, certainly to some degree, of the mentally static, spending much of their time dreaming about past achievements rather than adjusting themselves to new duties placed on them by these sort of Regulations. As a member of what was then the London County Council, I

2625
attended a civil defence course, at which it was made clear that the policy was to conceal, and not to reveal, the facts of nuclear war. The language used by the officers was euphemistic to the point of deception. When he meant that, in a nuclear war, there was no real hope of the promised evacuation, the Regional Scientific Training Officer said:
"It would not be too good for the inhabitants of London."
He meant that millions would die miserably. Questioned further, the furthest he would go to admitting that he was talking about death was to say:
"They would have no further interest."
The Assistant Chief Officer of the London Fire Brigade discussed what would happen when, as he put it
"… the big bang goes."
Apparently believing Stalin to be still alive, he said:
"We don't know when Joe is going to fire his rocket"
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot go into general matters of this sort. We are not discussing the whole question of civil defence; whether it is desirable or otherwise. We are discussing whether certain specific functions should or should not be assigned to local authorities.
Mr. Jenkins: I thought that I was illustrating how the functions which are being devolved on local authorities and which were previously carried out by the Civil Defence Corps—and which will still be carried out by that Corps, but in conjunction with local authorities—are incapable of being fulfilled. I therefore suggest that the Regulations have the effect of concealing the fact that the duty of civil defence in a nuclear war cannot be carried out by devolving these functions on local authorities. The fact that local authorities, rather than the central government, are to perform this duty does not make it any more possible for these functions to be carried out.
If it is true, as I think it is, that in a nuclear attack people cannot be saved, that after three or four days there will be no survivors, it makes no difference whether the function is to be carried out by central Government or local government—and if hon. Members do not like this, it is unfortunate, but it is true.
2626
These Regulations are, therefore, nonsense.
I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will permit me to quote the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Defence on this aspect, because if he says, as I think he does in the passage I wish to quote, that the Regulations require to be carried out a function that cannot be carried out, his remarks are relevant to the Regulations. Speaking in a defence debate on 4th March, 1965, the Secretary of State for Defence, referring to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone, said:
"He talked very seriously about what would happen if any thermo-nuclear exchange took place. He understands these facts. He knows that if we ever loose off this weapon, life on this island would be extinct within three days."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1965, Vol. 707, c. 1660.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I will not permit the hon. Member to refer to that statement. It is not within the scope of the Regulations.
Mr. Jenkins: Then, I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I must bring what I was about to say to a close. I see that you will not permit me to make my argument.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. I certainly shall not permit the hon. Members to depart from the Ruling I have given.
Mr. Jenkins: That, I entirely understand and accept, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I shall not attempt to do so. I will only repeat the point I have been trying to make, which is that my reason for saying that the Regulations ought not to be put into effect is that they require and charge local authorities to carry out a series of functions which, in the nature of nuclear war as it now is, they are entirely incapable of performing.
Sir Frank Pearson: Before the hon. Member sits down, is what he has been saying, in effect, that after these Regulations are passed there is no longer any effective civil defence organisation in this country?
Mr. Jenkins: I say that there never has been effective civil defence organisation in this country since the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and these Regulations merely emphasise that fact.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. Marcus Worsley: This is all very provoking, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) has trailed his coat in regard to a lot of issues and I should very much like to follow him, but I know that I must not do so. Perhaps I might say, however, that it is he and not the rest of the House who is guilty of self-deception; he, not the rest of the House, who is involved in an exercise of make believe. The evidence is against him, and against him all the way. It is, therefore, absolutely vital that the Government, of whatever party, should make it quite clear that they appreciate the value of civil defence.
I want to echo the remarks of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) about a wider civil defence debate. I believe that we should have such a debate, when the hon. Member for Putney can make his points on the Floor of the House, and can be shot down in flames by those who have studied the subject. But this is not the occasion.
What fills many of us with alarm about the Government's intentions is simply the lack of information. We had a statement way back last year—a very brief statement indeed. We then have these three sets of Regulations, put last on the Order Paper on two mornings, and, laughably, on the second morning, put after the Welsh Language Bill. Did the Leader of the House seriously think—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am sorry, but we must confine this debate to these Regulations.
Mr. Worsley: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for restraining me from launching out on to the merits or otherwise of the Welsh Language Bill.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the hon. Member aware that by the Welsh Language Bill official documents of this kind would be translated into Welsh?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I cannot allow discussions about the Welsh Language Bill on this Motion.
Mr. Worsley: I shall not attempt to follow the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes).
2628
We are lacking information which we should have before we should be required to come to a decision on these three Motions. The right hon. Lady even tried to get these Motions through on the nod on Monday. All along there has been lack of information from the Government on these matters. Such reticence on matters of this sort gives the impression that the Government are not as serious as they should be on questions of civil defence. When over and over again the one point is made that there will be economies, one begins to wonder whether the Government have their priorities right.
I wish to ask the right hon. Lady some questions before we come to a decision on these Regulations. I agree with the general principle that the main weight of responsibility for civil defence should rest on the local authorities. As she said, this would be carrying on government in war, but she did not say in her introductory remarks precisely what change would be made in responsibility. What responsibilities would be carried locally? This information we must have for it is of the essence of what these Motions are about. To be precise, I ask first about staff. She said, and I think it a right policy, that the emphasis will be on recruiting local government staff for training and eventual use if disaster should happen. What happens in a local authority if recruits are not forthcoming? What happens in a particular local authority area if people do not volunteer? The Regulations provide for the Minister to make instructions. Will he make instructions on this? That is a precise question to which I should like to have a precise answer.
What about equipment? When economy is the order of the day it is characteristic that equipment is first to suffer. We get people attending for training or practice without the proper equipment. Is the Minister able to give an assurance that although the numbers will be cut down and although responsibility will become local, there will be no cutting down on standards of equipment? Are we keeping up to date? Are we providing the best sort of equipment for all these matters?
I should like to extend what my right hon. and learned Friend said

2629
about training. The Home Office Regulations say specifically that training is the responsibility of local authorities, yet it must be perfectly obvious that the resources of local authorities in these matters are naturally limited. It is not the G.L.C., but the London boroughs which are the responsible bodies. The resources which they have for training are extremely limited. I should like to know whether institutions which have acquired a very high reputation and which are run by the Home Office—the Staff College at Sunningdale and the training establishment at Easingwold in Yorkshire—are to continue. If she is seeking to prove that a smaller force can produce an efficient service, the right hon. Lady must make clear that it will be better trained and equipped. If she can assure me on these points, I shall support her.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. John Horner: It is very clear from your rulings, Mr. Deputy Speaker, which I hope not to transgress, that it is not possible for me to deal with the general lunacy of the Government's civil defence policy. Therefore, I have to apply myself to the particular lunacy enshrined in these Regulations which are before us tonight.
I hope the House will not approve these Regulations, and I hope to be able to deploy my arguments within the rules of order for supporting my contention that these are bad Regulations. I want to deal briefly with two aspects of the Regulations—first, the decision of the Government essentially to disband the Civil Defence Corps as we understand it. My right hon. Friend has explained that the essence of these Regulations carry that decision into effect.
I wish to deal with a matter which is referred to only by implication in the Regulations, and that is the decision of the Government to establish new local authority boundaries in the London area. The Regulations apply specifically to London boroughs, and this means that the main civil defence organisation in the country, which was the London County Council, has ceased to exist, and the functions of the London County Council, which was a sizeable body and
2630
had the largest single grouping of civil defence volunteers, are now dispersed among the London boroughs which are the residual legatees of the London County Council.
I believe that the Regulations are so drafted and of necessity, arising from the two decisions in principle of the Government winding up the Civil Defence Corps, coincide almost in time with the dissolution of the largest single group of civil defence workers, the London County Council Civil Defence Corps, which will put the London boroughs in an impossible position. I do not think they will be capable of discharging even the residue of obligations which fall upon them.
I want to illustrate that point by dealing with one of the functions which will fall upon these London boroughs. There are three sets of Regulations before us—the casualty Regulations dealing with the ambulance service, and the general Regulations relating to public protection. I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will permit me to try to relate these Regulations to the sort of conditions in which they must be applied. I do not think the House can consider these Regulations in abstract. We have to consider what the Regulations mean in the circumstances in which they are designed to apply.
The London boroughs would be expected to put into effect the plans and preparations which they would be obliged by the Home Secretary to prepare beforehand, for the protection of human beings in a nuclear war. There is no other purpose of the Regulations. If the London boroughs were attacked by nuclear weapons, the most common form of H bomb is the 10 megaton bomb, and if a 10 megaton bomb were used on these London boroughs, there would be no London boroughs. The fire zone of a 10-megaton bomb over Westminster would extend, by coincidence, just about to the limits of the Greater London Council area, the area now split up into the London boroughs. It would extend to Waltham Abbey in the north and 12 miles to the south.
Therefore, these Regulations impose upon the London boroughs impossible obligations. Whatever the Government's policy may be—I shall not go into that

2631
now—the House is asked to accept Regulations which are impossible of application in the circumstances for which they are drawn.
I come now to the Casualty Services Regulations. Over the 24-mile diameter area of fire zone, there might be—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Those Regulations will be the subject of a separate Motion, after we have disposed of the Regulations now before us.
Mr. Horner: Do I understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I shall be able to catch your eye later to deal with the casualty services?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is so.
Mr. Homer: I am much obliged.
10.51 p.m.
Sir Frank Pearson: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner), since he said, in effect, that this is the requiem of the Civil Defence services of this country. I am inclined to agree in that, though I agree with little else that he said. If that be so, it is essential that someone should pay a tribute to the thousands of men and women who, not only during the war but in all the years since, have given selfless voluntary service to our civil defence organisation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I speak with some feeling, having had a little experience of these matters. I was chief warden of Lancashire for several years and saw a good deal of what went on.
The only interpretation I can put on these Regulations is that the Government have jettisoned the whole of our effective civil defence set-up. They put certain powers in the hands of the local authorities, but, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) said, there is no question of having Territorial Army backing, no mention of the warden srevice or anything else. The heart has been taken out of any civil defence organisation.
This might have had some sense if we were no longer a nuclear Power, but the core of the argument against the two hon. Members who have spoken from the benches opposite is that their own Prime Minister, who swore black and blue that he would abolish all
2632
nuclear weapons in British hands, has maintained our nuclear power. In these islands today, we are a nuclear Power just as much as Russia or America is. One cannot have the striking force of the nuclear weapon and not at the same time run the risk that that involves in the event of its being loosed off—which God forbid should ever happen.
In these circumstances, it is extraordinary that the Government should, at this hour on a Thursday night, with few hon. Members present, introduce a vastly important change in civil defence policy and put before us Regulations which are puerile in their effect. The powers which the right hon. Lady wishes to give to the local authorities are worthless. I say to the Government:
"You have torn the heart and the spirit out of the very core of the civil defence service, and you will not get it back. If you want it, you may well find it difficult to rally its spirit to our assistance gain".
10.55 p.m.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I seldom join with spokesmen for the Opposition, but I agree that the subject of civil defence is worth at least a whole day's debate. I have argued like this not only under this Government but under others before. For years we have been arguing that if we are to defend the civil population—and defence means nothing if we do not do that—the Honse should give the subject the serious attention it deserves. But instead we are given the Regulations at a very inappropriate time, and have little opportunity to discuss their implications. The rules of order limit us, so that we cannot have the full discussion the subject needs. It is difficult to discuss local authorities' duties if we cannot discuss what exactly a nuclear attack is.
The Regulations contain the finest collection of meaningless platitudes I have ever seen compiled in one single draft Order—and that is saying something. Their whole purpose is to pass the buck to the local authorities. I can recall no Government in the past 10 years having gone seriously into the question of civil defence in relation to the development of modern destructive weapons. The Regulations seem to me to be infantile, and the Government completely shirk their responsibility.

2633
The various local authorities are defined. I have never heard of the Isles of Scilly council appearing in Civil Defence Regulations before. Is there any significance in that? Suppose the council of the Isles of Scilly said to a distinguished visitor, "We have been given certain duties under Draft Civil Defence (Public Protection) Regulations. What exactly do they mean? What do we do?" That distinguished visitor would find great difficulty in explaining what the Government intend local authorities to do. Nothing in the Draft Regulations enlightens any local authority.
When they read the implications of the enormous destruction that the local authorities will be called upon to deal with, every intelligent member of a local authority—I have been a member of a local authority for many years—will ask, "What does this mean?" The answer is, "We do not know". We should have a first-class debate, so that the people know the implications of a nuclear attack. Next week we shall discuss defence. We have had two White Papers on defence, and there has been hardly a syllable about the people we are supposed to defend.
Therefore, I join hon. Members opposite in saying that the Regulations should be taken back and the Government should give guidance to the local authorities on exactly what they are to do if a 10-megaton bomb explodes above them. I do not know the answer, and neither does the Minister or anybody else in the country.
11.0 p.m.
Miss Bacon: I shall endeavour to answer all the questions put to me—at least, all those which were in order, because it would be difficult to answer all of them without getting out of order.
The right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) asked, first, what is to happen to the Civil Defence Staff College and the Home Office training establishments. They will stay for the time being and for some time at any rate. We have no plans to abolish them. There might be an increased demand for places on courses for members of local authority staffs at the Home Office training establishments as a result of the specific requirement in Regulation 1 that the staff be trained.
2634
I was also asked whether local authority employees will have to do their training in working hours or in their spare time. Training should as far as possible be given in normal working hours, but some training, particularly exercises, may have to take place outside working hours, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate.
There was the question of the cost of training local authority staffs, how it will be borne and what proportion will be borne by the rates and by the central Government. Identifiable additional expenditure necessarily incurred in giving training as directed under the Regulations will, subject to audit, be eligible for grant at the rate of 75 per cent. This will include overtime payments and payments for travelling and subsistence properly made under the local authority conditions of service. So 25 per cent. of it will come from the rates and 75 per cent. will be borne by the central Government.
I was also asked what is to happen with the regional control headquarters. These controls, which are part of the emergency system of control, will be manned by civil servants and members of the uniformed Services and public utilities and not by local authority staff or members of the Civil Defence Corps. These draft Regulations deal only with the local authority functions and have no bearing on the arrangements for control at regional level. The revised arrangements for the emergency system of control, about which local authorities were informed in February of last year, provide for regional seats of government to be established as soon as possible after attack at locations selected in the light of prevailing circumstances.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked about the W.V.S.—now the W.R.V.S. I pay tribute to the help which it has given. It will continue to help in providing women for welfare duties, and we hope that we shall get the help from them that we have had in the past.
As to the rescue section and how the rescue work will be done, it was made clear in the Civil Defence circular issued on 31st January this year, which followed my right hon. Friend's statement. that the main provision for rescue will have to be made by those whose peacetime work

2635
and expertise fit them for this task—for example, the local authority's own labour force, perhaps supplemented by industrial rescue teams, and, depending on the circumstances at the time, the fire service might be able to render valuable assistance.
I was asked how many people there would be in the warden section and for how many people each warden in a town would be responsible. The warden's section as such has been abolished. The C.D.C. will no longer be divided into sections but the control posts which used to be called wardens' posts will be manned by members of the Corps or local authority staffs.
I cannot answer the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question about the Territorial Army because this was deemed to be out of order. The circular giving details of the organisation was issued on 31st January. The circular to be issued when these Regulations are made is about local authority staff training only. The circular giving directions on training local authority staffs will be issued a few days after the Regulations are made.
The C.D.C. can still be used to man the controls where they are not fully manned by local authority staffs. The hon. Member for Chelsea (Mr. Worsley) asked what would happen in relation to this aspect. The numbers required in any particular local authority will be proportionately very small as compared with the number of local authority staffs available—so small a proportion that I do not think that there will be any difficulty.
My hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner) talked about the London boroughs and said the Regulations dealt solely with nuclear warfare. But they also deal with controlling and co-ordinating action necessary as a result of hostile attack.
The hon. Member for Clitheroe (Sir Frank Pearson) complained about our dealing with these Regulations at this hour. The hon. and learned Member for Huntingdon and I sat here through two mornings waiting to speak on them and we did not see some people present then who are here tonight complaining about the lateness of the hour.
2636
I would be out of order if I went into the wider questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) because you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, had to draw him to order on several occasions. But I want to make one overall point.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope the right hon. Lady is not going to venture into something I have ruled out of order.
Miss Bacon: I was not going to answer something which had been ruled out of order. All I was going to say was that the Government believe that, by introducing these Regulations, in changing the emphasis and putting more responsibility on the local authority staffs, we should have a civil defence not only more economical but more efficient. We believe that these Regulations will produce a more realistic and more efficient way of carrying on civil defence.
Sir D. Renton: Would the right hon. Lady answer my question as to when the reorganisation to be required by the Regulations will be completed?
Miss Bacon: I cannot answer that now, but I will communicate with the right hon. and learned Gentleman about it.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Civil Defence (Public Protection) Regulations 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 22nd June, be approved.
11.10 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Julian Snow): I beg to move,
That the Civil Defence (Casualty Services) Regulations 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 26th June, be approved.
These draft Regulations, which my right hon. Friend proposes to make under Section 2 of the Civil Defence Act, 1948, consolidate, with amendments, existing Civil Defence Regulations relating to the wartime casualty services provided by local authorities. Regulations approved by Resolutions of the House in 1949 and 1954 make it the duty of county and county borough councils, and by virtue of a provision of the London Government Act, 1963, the Greater London Council, to make plans for the expansion of the ambulance services and the provision of

2637
a service for the collection and removal of casualties in the event of hostile action or the threat of hostile action.
One of the essentials to such planning is the availability of trained manpower. The existing Regulations provide, therefore, that the local authorities shall train not only members of the staff of their peace-time ambulance services but also members of the Civil Defence Corps whose services are made available for ambulance or first-aid duties. It is the Government's view that while the risk of nuclear war has been greatly reduced, the possibilities of accident of miscalculation cannot be entirely discounted, and therefore there can be no guarantee that the present stability will continue indefinitely. We cannot, therefore, discontinue those civil defence preparations which would be likely to make a significant contribution to national survival.
There is, however, scope for some reorganisation, and in a statement on 14th December last my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced the changes that we discussed tonight in the Civil Defence Corps. One result of the changes is that the Corps will no longer make available members for providing ambulance and first-aid services. The rôle of the corps in relation to the casualty services of local authorities will be to provide a limited number of specialists to help to organise the first-aid services. For this reason new regulations are required to permit the training of other persons who will be engaged in these services.
The Draft Instrument consolidates two existing sets of regulations. Regulations 2(a) and 2(b) continue the duty placed on local authorities to plan for the provision of casualty collection and first aid services and for the expansion of the peace-time ambulance service. Regulation 2(c) provides in general terms for the training of persons who would be engaged in those services now or in the future.
Regulations 2(d), 2(e) and 2(f) continue the provisions in the existing Regulations relating to vehicles, limitations affecting peace-time services and co-operation between local authorities in the discharge of their functions.
The Regulations introduce one change in the local authorities to whom the duties are given. Under a provision in Section
2638
49 of the London Government Act, 1963, regulations relating to ambulance and first-aid services were applied to the Greater London Council. Regulation 3 of the draft Regulations provides for the repeal of this provision as being overtaken by the provisions of the draft Regulations. But it is proposed that while the augmentation of the ambulance service in London should continue to be the duty of the Greater London Council, which is the peace-time ambulance authority, the duty of providing a service in London for the collection and first-aid care of casualties should be the responsibility of the London Borough Councils and the Common Council of the City of London. The smaller areas of the London boroughs and the City are more suitable for planning first-aid services. The re-allocation has been agreed with the Greater London Council and the London Boroughs Committee, and it is provided for in Regulation 1 of the draft Regulations.
Apart from this change in the allocation of duties in London the main change made by the Regulations is the provision for training persons engaged in the war-time ambulance and first-aid services. I think that the House will wish me to say more on this. For the first-aid services, my right hon. Friend proposes to ask the local authorities concerned to base their planning on the understanding that those trained members of the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the British Red Cross Society who have no other war-time commitment would make their services available in war time.
My right hon. Friend has been in touch with these two organisations, and I would like to pay tribute to the very ready way in which their headquarters agreed to planning proceeding on this basis. I am sure that members of the Brigade and the Society would, in any case, have readily made their services available in wartime, but it is obviously an advantage if they work to pre-arranged plans. I am confident that when local authorities approach the county organisations of the two bodies we shall get a willing response. Their members are, of course, already trained in first aid. They will need training on the background against which they would work in wartime, and some will need training in the specialised work of first-aid organisation or casualty sorting.

2639
Regulation 2(c) will permit local authorities to provide such training, or assist the training provided by the two bodies themselves.
The Regulations relate to the functions of local authorities only, and in addition to the plans they would prepare for first aid services there would be the body of trained first-aiders who, in certain circumstances would be available to help in the community.
The peacetime ambulance service will be trained to provide operational control and officer direction of the expanded ambulance services. To provide the additional manpower required in the expanded service my right hon. Friend intends to create a new volunteer civil defence body under section 1 of the Civil Defence Act, 1948, to be called "The Ambulance Reserve". This body would be organised in divisions based on the areas of the ambulance authorities and would consist of persons licensed to drive motor cars who have no wartime commitment and who would be prepared to drive an ambulance in wartime. My right hon. Friend hopes that there will be a very ready response to the recruiting campaigns which he intends to ask ambulance authorities to carry out. This new body, which would not he uniformed, would have only a limited training commitment in peacetime.
In addition to the main sources of manpower which I have mentioned, local authorities may wish to provide training for other members of their staff—mainly in organising first-aid services or in casualty sorting duties— and for persons trained in first-aid who are not employed by the authorities and are not members of the St. John Ambulance Brigade or the British Red Cross Society. Regulation 2(c) of the Draft Regulations will enable all such training to be provided by local authorities.
The remaining provision in Regulation 3 requires that local authorities shall comply with any directions given to them by the Minister. This latter provision flows directly from the authority given by Section 2(2,a) of the Civil Defence Act, 1948.
My right hon. Friend has consulted the appropriate local authority associations on the arrangements which I have outlined. If these Regulations are approved, they will come into operation on 1st Septem-
2640
ber. I hope that the House can now approve the Regulations, and I recommend that it should do so.
11.18 p.m.
Sir D. Renton: I think that there is a good deal more justification for these Regulations than there was for the previous ones. Since the Civil Defence Corps was formed, local authority ambulance services have expanded very considerably, and I think that there is a certain amount of logic in correlating the Civil Defence ambulance and first-aid work with the ambulance services of the local authorities.
The Minister of Health is right in making sure that the Red Cross and the St. John Ambulance Brigade are specifically brought into this work. One might not have understood that from reading the Regulations but the hon. Gentleman's statement gives us the assurance that they will be brought in, and of course it is a very valuable assurance indeed, because both the St. John's Ambulance Brigade and the British Red Cross have played a vital part in helping to train members of the Civil Defence Corps in first-aid, and indeed in ambulance driving.
Bearing in mind that many people—and fortunately their services will be available all over the country whenever casualties arise—have been trained in first-aid simply because they were members of the Civil Defence Corps, could the hon. Gentleman give us an idea of how many will be trained annually in first-aid under the new set up? What is the total number which the Ministry of Health has in mind as being necessary to train? They are two slightly different questions, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman can give clear answers. It would seem, subject to anything that my hon. Friends may wish to say, that there is rather less need for us to detain the House on these Regulations. There is less to criticise about them.
11.21 p.m.
Mr. Horner: I do not wish to detain the House, but I must express my concern about the feature of the Regulations which has now been put forward relating to the Greater London Council whereby it has certain functions concerning the collection of casualties and the London borough councils have other and related functions.

2641
Once again, it seems that the Government are in the difficult position of coinciding their so-called reorganisation of civil defence with the disappearance of what was the largest civil defence organisation—the London County Council. This complicated arrangement in local government structure may have to stand the most arduous test of nuclear war, and for that reason I am concerned about this feature of the Regulations. I have sought to follow through the application of the Regulations in practical terms to see how they would be related to the arrangements which have previously existed.
What were the Government's proposals regarding the collection of casualties and the giving of first-aid treatment? I refer to what is known in civil defence as Manual Training No. 6, which is specifically devoted to this function of the Civil Defence Corps.
In the Greater London Council area there is a population of about 13 million. I have no knowledge—nor has anybody else—of any precise research which has been done relating to the number of casualties which might have to be dealt with by the London boroughs if we were subjected to the sort of attack which has been referred to tonight. In the United States a great deal of research has been done. Taking a comparative area in New York, we have the benefit of the Hollifield Senate Committee and the Rand Research Organisation. The work of both these bodies has led to the conclusion that in the event of nuclear attack by a 10 megaton bomb—about 2,347,000 people would be killed and some 2,800,000 people would require medical treatment. Therefore, what we are asking the London boroughs to do is to leave the dead and to pick up about 2 million people requiring medical assistance, and to do it very quickly. If they do not receive medical assistance quickly, they will die.
Civil Defence Manual No. 6, which will be the basic work for the new units, because the Home Office will cutely not revise its training manuals, envisages the establishment of forward medical units consisting of four doctors assisted by these newly-trained people. There will also be St. John's Ambulance men and any local authority ambulance men
2642
who can be spared. The manual itself says:
"It is estimated that these four doctors would be able to cope with 120 admissions an hour for at least 48 hours."
Mr. Emrys Hughes: If all the hospitals have been destroyed, how could they be admitted?
Mr. Horner: These are not hospitals; they are forward medical units to which the casualties will be sent, having been collected by the ambulance units and so on. They will not be sent to hospitals straight away. It is thought that a doctor would not be able to stand on his feet after dealing with 120 admissions an hour for 48 hours, and that he will have dealt with a total of 1,440 casualties in the 48 hours.
We have had some experience of collecting casualties. On the night of 7th September, 1940, many of my comrades and I helped to evacuate Silvertown in West Ham when 1,600 people were seriously injured in Silvertown. Nearly all of those 1,600 would have to be dealt with by only one doctor in 48 hours under these arrangements. During the war, at no period did blitz admissions to hospitals exceed 15,000 in 48 hours. By the calculations of this manual it would have meant that at the most extreme period of the blitz those 15,000 casualties would have been the work of no more than 11 doctors.
We are asking these forward medical units to accept obligations and duties in conditions which would have meant that all the casualties in 48 hours at the peak of the blitz would be dealt with by 11 doctors. I think that the House ought not to approve these Regulations.
11.30 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I will endeavour to restore myself to your favour Mr. Deputy Speaker, by asking my hon. Friend to reply to a single point arising directly from these Regulations. The Regulations make it the duty of a local authority to make plans for the provision and maintenance of a service for the collection and first-aid care of casualties arising from hostile action.
These Regulations, as distinct from the previous ones, make no direct reference to nuclear war. Is it the fact that nuclear

2643
war is not envisaged in these Regulations, or, if it is not the case, and they do embrace the possibility of nuclear war and the dealing with casualties arising from it, does my hon. Friend directly disagree with the Secretary of State for Defence who said that in the event of a full-scale nuclear attack, there would be no life in this country after three days?
11.32 p.m.
Mr. Snow: With your permission Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will reply first to the question put by the hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) about the expected availability of trained personnel under this scheme. I do not think that I can give him the precise answer that he wants, because I do not believe that the information is available. He will be interested to know that the total membership of the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the British Red Cross Society is about 94,000 trained first aiders. Of these, about 26,000 have a commitment to the National Hospital Service Reserve, and other members will have other wartime commitments. The actual numbers of members of the two societies whom local authorities can assume will be available for their first aid services cannot be estimated at this stage, but they will clearly be substantial.
In a war emergency the strength of the societies will be augmented by the thousands of trained first aiders who are not members of the societies. It was because of that consideration that I mentioned in my original speech that we have the great benefit of a vast core of industrially trained first aiders who, outside their normal working hours, would undoubtedly, as they did in the last war, come forward for volunteer work. I accept at once that what I have been able to tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not in the form he requested. I should like to consider his question and see whether I can get the information at a later date.
I want now to refer to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Horner). He will accept from me that the sort of situation that he has been postulating, aided by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes, is precisely the sort of atmosphere which prevailed in the years immediately preceding the
2644
last war, and when we saw pictures and heard accounts of the devastation caused by high explosive bombardments during the Spanish Civil War. I well remember people asking then—and I do not mean this as a criticism—"What is the use of doing anything? We shall be absolutely obliterated. Let's pack up".
Thank Heaven, wiser counsel prevailed and, feeling as I do about nuclear war and the horrific casualties, I can well understand people saying as my hon. Friend said, not just that this scheme was hopeless, but that any scheme was hopeless.
Mr. Horner: We cannot go into the issue of civil defence as such, but to reply to my hon. Friend, whoever survives a nuclear war will survive, not as a result of civil defence. This is quite irrelevant, and my objection to civil defence is that it makes people believe that there may be a possibility of survival, and no survival is possible.
Mr. Snow: I just do not agree with that argument. My reason for not agreeing is that what saved us so many casualties in the last war—and I think that the principle would probably apply to any future war, more devastating though that would be—was that, by having a scheme in reserve, there was at least a discipline enforced on the community which resulted in many lives being saved.
I should like to go further and say this. The technique of quick mobilisation has been recently well demonstrated by what the Israel Government were able to do because of years of careful preparation for what should be done in the event of an immediate emergency. Those techniques are, possibly in less dramatic form, being most carefully studied by our advisers, not only in the control of ambulances, not only in the method of dealing with the bombing of hospitals, but in the whole technique of a speedy mobilisation of resources.
I should like to correct the correction which my hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen made to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire about the rôle of the forward medical units. They constitute a part of the hospital service. This is not a responsibility of the casualty services which are the subject of the Regulations.

2645
I pay tribute to the obvious knowledge of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldbury and Halesowen about what has been the subject of research in the United States. I concede at once that the problem would be huge. I do not agree that training manuals are static and not to be amended. On the contrary, our experience and research show that such manuals must be amended from time to time.
We must not be daunted by the appalling casualties that would ensue from nuclear warfare. Our responsibility is to see that there is a framework and structure for training. Hon. Members, in all parts of the House, will accept that the most appalling thing which we in the Army and the people responsible for A.R.P. had to contend with at the outbreak of the last war was the lack of well-trained people and of a good, expert, specialist corps. That is precisely what we are trying to do under the Regulations.
It would be wrong if I were to indicate that we had achieved theoretical perfection. On the contrary, we must understand what the problems are. We must ensure the potential rapid expansion of the services. We can do that only if we provide for this corps of instructors and specialists.
Sir Frank Pearson: Can the hon. Gentleman explain how any casualty service, trained or untrained, could be of any effect without a rescue service and without a warden service operating in conjunction with it?
Mr. Snow: I should be happy to debate that at great length, but I think that it comes under the responsibility of the Home Office, as mentioned in the debate on the previous set of Regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Civil Defence (Casualty Services) Regulations, 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 26th June, be approved.
11.38 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Norman Buchan): I beg to move,
That the Civil Defence (Public Protection) (Scotland) Regulations, 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 28th June, be approved.
2646
I have listened with the keenest attention to the points made from both sides of the House on the two preceding sets of Regulations, and not least from my hon. Friends behind me. Underlying some of their remarks, I understand, is the view that the best form of civil defence would be a peaceful settlement in the world which would prevent a nuclear catastrophe ever occurring. I do not dispute that. Nevertheless, it is equally correct to take what steps are possible to provide what protection is possible, however inadequate or misguided some people may think it.
These draft Regulations correspond substantially to the Regulations for England and Wales which have today been approved by the House. I should explain, however, that, in Scotland, the local authorities have no responsibility, in peace or in war, for the ambulance services: the Ambulance Auxiliary Corps in Scotland is part of the National Health Service Reserve and is administered by the Scottish Ambulance Service, which is the direct responsibility of the Secretary of State. The Scottish Public Protection Regulations, therefore, relating as they do only to the civil defence functions of local authorities, do not deal with ambulance functions, but they do, as in the Minister of Health's Casualty Services Regulations for England and Wales, place on the appropriate local authorities the function of providing for the collection and first-aid care of persons injured.
The Regulations would place on local authorities broadly the same functions as were conferred by the earlier Regulations, made in 1949, which they would replace, with the addition of a duty to train members of local authority staffs in civil defence duties. There would be no obligation on individual local authority employees to undertake training in these duties. Staff participation in the arrangements would, therefore, be voluntary, and on this understanding N.A.L.G.O. (Scottish District) has raised no objection on behalf of its members. I should remind the House that power to train members of local authority staffs in certain civil defence duties has already been conferred in Regulations relating to other aspects of civil defence planning; for example, in respect of emergency feeding and care of the homeless.

2647
One effect of the revocation of the 1949 Regulations would be to transfer from the police authorities to county councils and the town councils of large burghs the responsibility for functions hitherto discharged through the warden section of the Civil Defence Corps, a duty which the police inherited because of their experience in organising the warden service in the last war.
In its new rôle, the Corps will not have specialist sections and its organisation and training for the discharge of its warden-type duties, as well as for its other tasks, will become the concern of the local authority. We view with considerable regret the ending of the direct police association with the Corps, but it is logical to concentrate all responsibility for Corps organisation and training under the civil defence officer.
We are confident that, during the transitional period, police authorities and chief constables will be willing to make available to civil defence officers the services of their police civil defence instructors, where this assistance is asked for and where it can be given without prejudice to police duties.
I wish to express the thanks of my right hon. Friend to the voluntary aid societies—the St. Andrew's Ambulance Association and the Scottish Branch of the British Red Cross Society—for their ready agreement to co-operate with the local authorities in the planning of the war-time first-aid service; and to the local authority associations, through their representatives on the standing Local Authority Civil Defence Coordinating Committee, for their assistance in connection with the drafting of these Regulations and other measures required to implement the reorganisation of local authority civil defence to meet current needs.
It is proposed to bring the Regulations into operation on 1st September and I hope the House will have no difficulty in approving them.
11.44 p.m.
Mr. Ian MacArthur: As the Under-Secretary explained, these Regulations are broadly similar to the Regulations for England and Wales which we debated earlier. There are, however, some differences, notably those which arise because of our
2648
separate form of ambulance service in Scotland.
I do not propose to recommend my hon. Friends to divide against the Scottish Regulations, because we do not object to them. However, we question the policy which lies behind them. In the debate on the Regulations for England and Wales I was not satisfied with the reply of the right hon. Lady the Minister of State, particularly when answering the questions asked by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton). My suspicion has been confirmed that the Government's handling of civil defence has been slipshod and that their treatment of Parliament has been off-hand.
It is an extraordinarily long time since we first had an indication of a change in civil defence policy. It is two years since that change was foreshadowed. I recognise that there had to be discussions with local authority associations, but this long time lapse has caused uncertainty in the Civil Defence Corps. It is right to call attention to the devoted service of so many volunteers, and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for paying a tribute to them. We should remember that they have carried out their work loyally and efficiently over the last two years, despite the doubts which the Government cast on their future rôle. It would also be proper to echo the thanks expressed by the hon. Gentleman to the chief constables and their forces for their work in training.
Further, it is now more than eight months since the Home Secretary made a statement to the House on his own behalf and on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is now nearly seven months since the Scottish Home and Health Department leaflet stated that the review had been completed. But we have had to wait all this time for these Regulations to be laid. There has been this further delay, made the more offensive, I must say, by the manner in which the Government now wish to rush the Regulations through in the last days of the Session, shifting them forward from day to day at the shortest notice.
We have here yet another example of the inefficient conduct of Government business. I appreciate that this clumsy handling is not the responsibility of the Under-Secretary of State, and I absolve

2649
him at once of any discourtesy, but I must point out to him that this is not the way in which the Government should treat the Civil Defence Corps, or the local authorities, or the hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies.
I understand that the consultations with the local authorities were undertaken through the agency of the local authority civil defence co-ordinating committee. The conclusions were sent out in a Scottish Home and Health Department Circular dated 3rd February of this year. That Circular stated that the re-organisation of the Corps was to be completed by 30th September. Here, I return to the question put by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire to the right hon. Lady the Minister of State, Home Office, who, I am rather surprised, was unable to answer it. Is it still the Government's intention to complete the reorganisation by 30th September? Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what progress has been made towards the reorganisation? What consultations have there been with individual local authorities?
Has the process of consultation been carried out successfully through the coordinating committee, or have there also been consultations with individual local authorities? I ask this question because of the Government's own statement in the leaflet that went out with the February Circular, in which attention was called to the fact that there would be variations from place to place in the extent to which local authorities would need assistance from the Corps. In view of the existence of those variations, some consultation with individual local authorities would surely be necessary.
These new proposals obviously represent a heavy extra work load for the local authorities. Does the Minister consider that their staffs can handle this work in addition to their ever-growing responsibilities? Will these additional responsibilities require the enlargement of local authority staffs if these responsibilities are to be properly and efficiently discharged, as they must be? If so, can he estimate what the increased cost will amount to, and what effect the cost of these increased staffs will have on the Government's economy target? As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, we need to be assured that the economies planned
2650
to result from the reduction and rundown in the Civil Defence Corps are not swallowed up by consequential costs elsewhere. How will the additional costs facing the local authorities be financed? What will be the cost to the ratepayers?
I observe that all future Civil Defence Corps training will be the direct responsibility of the civil defence officer. What is to be the future of Taymouth Castle, the Scottish training centre? How will it be financed in future? Will it be a central government change, will it be grant aided, and what proportion of the cost will fall on the ratepayers?
I call attention to the importance of reassuring the House and the public that these Regulations will lead to the proper and efficient conduct of civil defence which we need. I shall not add to what my right hon. and learned Friend said about the importance of civil defence to the nation. He argued that very clearly. It is illustrated by the very nature of the functions listed in the Regulations before us. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to give some reassurance about the efficiency of the new system. I have profound doubts about it, particularly in the light of what was said earlier today.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell us about the attitude which local authorities, and particularly their employees, take towards these new responsibilities? I believe he said that there had been no objection from N.A.L.G.O. in Scotland to the voluntary taking of training responsibilities in future, but that is not the answer to the question. Local government officers are loyal and I am sure that they will play their part willingly, but how will they be able to play that part in the new system? At what point on the list of priorities will their civil defence responsibilities lie? The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is in the relationship between the individual employees of local authorities and their new functions in civil defence that some of the weakness of the system may lie.
A great many other questions should be asked and must be answered, not all of which can arise properly from the narrow terms of this Motion. I join my right hon. and learned Friend and other hon. Members who have pressed the Government for an early debate on the whole subject of civil defence. It is

2651
quite impossible at this hour of night, after three all-night sittings, at the shortest notice, and within the confines of these Regulations to debate civil defence adequately. It is many years since we had a debate on civil defence. It is fitting and proper that a full debate should be held since the Government are putting forward the biggest changes in the structure of the system with very little communication or information to the House.
I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to assure us that there will be a full debate at the earliest possible opportunity, and that it will be held in Government time, not at an advanced hour of night.
11.54 p.m.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I agree with certain remarks made from the Opposition Front Bench that this is a very unfortunate time to be discussing the Civil Defence Regulations as they affect Scotland. As a result of the change in the time-table, these Regulations come to us at a time when most Scottish hon. Members will be in their constituencies, or on their way to them. There are not more than three or four hon. Members present representing Scottish constituencies to discuss a very important question, the whole question of what is to happen to the civilian population in the event of nuclear war.
I certainly agree that there should be a type of civil defence, but as far as these Regulations apply to Scotland there should be a special meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee to discuss all these difficulties as they affect Scotland. Scotland is in a very peculiar position. I have no hesitation in saying that Scotland is now the most dangerous place to live in in the British Isles and perhaps one of the most dangerous places in the whole world as a result of the Polaris base in the West of Scotland which is vulnerable to attack and because we have concentrated within 20 miles of Glasgow a base which would inevitably result in devastating nuclear attack. We know, too, that near the Gairloch, Glasgow, there are to be stored atomic missile heads which are to be used by the Polaris submarines—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Order. I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman in his difficulty, but we really cannot discuss the whole question of civil defence on these Regulations, desirable though it may be to do so one day.
Mr. Hughes: I am not intending to do that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am only pointing out the special position of Scotland and the reason why we should devote more attention to the problems of civil defence because we happen to be in this vulnerable position.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I agree with the hon. Member that that may well be desirable, but unfortunately this is not the occasion, and it cannot be done in connection with these Regulations.
Mr. Hughes: I will pass on to the Regulations, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sure that when these Regulations get to the local authorities, the questions which will be asked by the local authority members will be more searching than those that we are asking tonight. The local authorities will have to deal with casualty services, and the immediate question in Glasgow, in Ayrshire and in all the surrounding areas of Scotland will be, "What sort of casualties are we going to be faced with?"
I remember that in a previous debate the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) estimated that if one megaton bomb were exploded over the Holy Loch the devastation would be such that it would result in the obliteration of every human being within a radius of 100 miles. That means that nearly the whole of the industrial belt of Scotland from Glasgow down to Carlisle and up to Aberdeen would have to face the possibilities of the effects of such an attack.
It is natural that local authority members, when they receive these Regulations, will ask questions which it will be very difficult to answer. Take my own local authority. I served on the Ayrshire County Council during the last war. It is a mistaken argument to say that in the last war things were not so bad. Since the last war we have a form of nuclear attack which completely destroys and obliterates every human being within 100 miles. That statement was made some years before the explosion of the latest

2653
type of Russian megaton bomb which is even more deadly.
Realistic members of town and county councils will ask, "What burden is the Minister imposing upon us? Will there be grants? Who will pay the expense, and to what extent will it result in considerable increases in local authority expenditure?"
What about the duties which will be involved? I shall take two examples. One is:
"The taking of measures for the protection of persons against the effects of hostile attack".
Does that mean that the local authorities in this dangerous area will have to construct deep shelters against the effects of atomic fall-out? In The Guardian last week, there was a description of the civil defence measures taken by the American authorities. They have deep shelters. People will ask, "If Scotland is to face these devastating possibilities, is the advice which has been sent to us advice to build deep shelters?".
What would deep' shelters cost? In Coalport, millions of pounds are being spent on the building of depots for storing missiles. If we are to keep the missiles safe, what about the civil population as well? I do not know the answers to these questions.
We are told in the Regulations that another duty of the local authorities will be
"The collection and first-aid care of persons injured as a result of hostile attack".
One bomb dropped over Glasgow would destroy all the hospitals. Members of local authorities will ask, "If we get the casualties into our ambulances, where will they go?". The previous Government had a plan for evacuating the civil population. I forget how many millions would have been taken to the Highlands of Scotland. I do not know what has become of that plan.
Not only will the local authorities have to make preparations for the collection of casualties, but they will have to bury the dead. No doubt, someone with a grim sense of humour will ask whether they will have to train thousands of undertakers.
The more we examine these Regulations which will be sent to local authorities, without any guidance from the
2654
Secretary of State, the more we see that, in discussing them, we are voicing the questions which are asked, and will be asked, by people all over Scotland. They want to know how the problem will be solved. Hon. Members opposite say that it would be possible to solve it by more training and the restoration of the old civil defence organisation. With respect, it is a problem beyond the possibility of human solution.
The Scottish Regulations should be withdrawn and the Government should come forward with another plan. The only plan is to take away from Scotland the reason why Scotland will be subject to nuclear attack, and it is subject to the danger of nuclear attack because it has become the centre for possible nuclear attack on another nation from the Polaris base there. I have great sympathy with my hon. Friend. I know that we are putting to him questions that he cannot answer. All the same, that is a reason why the House should give greater consideration to what is likely to happen to Scotland in the event of a nuclear attack than by this small and miserable debate at a late hour, when practically no Scots M.P.s are present.
12.5 a.m.
Mr. Buchan: I listened to the plea for a debate on the subject with rather more sympathy when it was made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) than when it was made by the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur). At least my hon. Friend has taken the trouble to stay, despite the difficulties he described of being present on a Thursday night. [An HON. MEMBER: "So has the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire."] The hon. Member said, "Hear, hear "when it was suggested that there should be a discussion in the Scottish Grand Committee, as proposed by my hon. Friend. It was in the hands of his party to have such a debate, but it chose to pursue a political vendetta over the Highlands and Islands.
The question of the local authorities' involvement was raised. Consultations and discussions have been taking place and are still going on. We have reasonable evidence that most authorities will accept the principle of local authority staff participation and co-operation. The

2655
authorities are still expected to have the reorganisation completed by 30th September. I was asked about the future of Taymouth Castle. It will continue as one of the three Civil Defence training schools in the United Kingdom. The financing is a Home Office matter rather than one for me, but I shall check on that.
There was also a question about the general cost of the programme, with particular reference to local authority rating powers. The answer here is that the local authorities have been asked to reduce their civil defence expenditure generally in 1967–68 to 80 per cent. of that incurred in 1965–66. The Scottish saving to the Exchequer will be about £100,000. On the question of the local authority financing, the answer is that the 75 per cent. Exchequer grant—l00 per cent. in the welfare section of the services—will continue. We do not anticipate an overall increase but a reduction in the cost of this.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire went on to rather wider questions, and I should probably be out of order if I discussed them, although I listened with great sympathy. The point has been put most forcibly by hon. Members opposite and by my hon. and very dear friend the Member for South Ayrshire that there should be a debate on the subject. It is not incumbent on me to organise such a debate, but I will put the suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Civil Defence (Public Protection) (Scotland) Regulations 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 28th June, be approved.

AGRICULTURE AND HORTICULTURE (CO-OPERATION SCHEME)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [19th July],
That the Agricultural and Horticultural Co-operation Scheme 1967, a draft of which was laid before this House on 28th June, be approved:—
Sir Frank Pearson Sir Frank Pearson (Clitheroe) rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): What day?
Mr. Alan Fitch (Lord Commissioner to the Treasury): This day, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Peart. Mr. Fitch: Not moved, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Secretary Ross.
Mr. Fitch: Not moved, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Miss Herbison.
Mr. Fitch: Not moved, Sir.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Social Security (Mr. Charles Loughlin)The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Social Security (Mr. Charles Loughlin) rose—
Mr. Michael Jopling: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think you called the resumed debate on one of the agriculture Schemes. My hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir Frank Pearson) rose. He had the Floor when the debate was adjourned on Wednesday morning.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The position is that the Clerk called the Order of the Day, and I understood that from the Government Bench it was said, "This day", which means that it is not being moved today, as I understand it. So as I understand it, the Motion on the Order Paper is not being moved by the Government today.
Mr. J. B. Godber: May I ask for a little guidance on this Mr. Deputy Speaker? We were told that the adjourned debate was coming forward. Are we to be told at the last moment that it is not to be proceeded with? It is an extraordinary way to conduct Government business.
The Deputy Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the

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Government have control of the business of the House and that it is open to them to move or not to move any order that appears on the Order Paper. It is not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: May I point out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that my hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir Frank Pearson) was on his feet when the debate on the agriculture Scheme was adjourned?
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry. When the debate is resumed the hon. Gentleman will be entitled to continue his speech. But obviously, an Order of the Day cannot be dealt with unless it is moved by the Government, who are in charge of the business.
Mr. Ian MacArthur: This places in difficulty a number of hon. Members who have stayed to take part in the debate. It is difficult for us to understand what is happening. We have already had the delayed civil defence debates, which have been shifted from day to day to the great inconvenience of hon. Members, and now the Government at the last moment have retreated from the debate that the House expected tonight. If this is the position, is it not possible for the Leader of the House to be present for a change and to explain to us just what is happening and when these very important matters will be considered?
The Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order for me. I am not responsible for the presence or absence of the Leader of the House at any particular moment. All I am responsible for is seeing that any Orders of the Day on the Order Paper are dealt with as and when they are moved. We have already dealt with three or four Orders of the Day, but when the Order for the adjourned debate was called it was indicated by the Government that it was not being dealt with today. When that adjourned debate is resumed the hon. Gentleman who had the floor at the time it was adjourned will be able to resume his speech. I am afraid that the Chair cannot do any more about it.
Mr. Godber: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Chair is in a difficult position in relation to this, but as the Ministers responsible for the debate are present, could we not have the courtesy of an explanation from the Government about what is happening and why the House is being treated with this extreme discourtesy? It is a monstrous situation. The Ministers are here. Surely one of them will have the courtesy to tell us what is happening.
Sir Frank Pearson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is the strangest incident in Parliamentary procedure that I can ever recollect. We have on the Order Paper the Order for the adjourned debate. The Minister concerned is sitting on the Treasury Bench. One of the gentlemen very closely concerned with the Order was in the Public Gallery. Yet the adjourned debate is not taken at this time of night, and the Minister sits there and refuses to get up and give any explanation. It is contumacious behaviour towards the House.
The Deputy Speaker: No point of order is raised in those remarks.
Mr. Loughlin Mr. Loughlin rose—
Sir David Renton: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Do I understand that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary is rising to move the Supplementary Benefit (Determination of Requirements) Regulations, 1967? If so, and if I heard correctly, when you first called that Order another member of the Government called out "not moved". It is very difficult to know how Government business is being conducted if one member of the Government says "not moved" and another rises to move the Regulations. We should at least have the advantage of lack of confusion even if there is lack of courtesy.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
House counted, and, 40 Members not being present, adjourned at nineteen minutes past Twelve o'clock till this day.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester.

MIDDLE EAST: SUPPLY OF RUSSIAN ARMS
3.6 p.m.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what supplies of aircraft and arms have been sent by Russia to Egypt and other countries of the Middle East, since the outbreak of hostilities on 5th June, 1967, and whether Her Majesty's Government have made any representations to Soviet Russia on the matter.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, I cannot comment on the quantities of aircraft and arms which have been supplied by the Soviet Union to the United Arab Republic and other countries of the Middle East since June 5. When Her Majesty's Government temporarily suspended arms shipments to the Middle East countries, other major suppliers, including the Soviet Government, were consulted about their intentions. No positive response was received from the Soviet Government.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he would not agree that there has already been enough war in the Middle East; that already there are far too many Arab refugees, and that the cost of any further increase in their number will fall on this country and on America and not on Russia or the Arab States? What action do Her Majesty's Goverment intend to take while Russia continues to re-arm Egypt for another round of war in the Middle East?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, of course Her Majesty's Government agree
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fervently that there has already been more than enough war in the Middle East, and we take full account of the points which the noble Lord raised about refugees. So far as any action we can take about the supply of Russian arms to the United Arab Republic is concerned, I can only say that it remains our policy to seek international agreement on the limitation of arms going into the area. But we have been unsuccessful so far in persuading other countries to join us in such an arms control agreement. We believe that at the moment the Soviet Government's motives for rearming the United Arab Republic are probably more diplomatic than military. But I agree that it is too early to form a definite judgment on this point.
LORD ROWLEY: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether discussions are taking place, or are to take place, between the United States Government, the Soviet Government, the French Government and Her Majesty's Government, the main suppliers of arms to the Middle East, with a view to achieving this agreement to limit the supply of arms into this particular area?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, there is no plan at the moment for any formal consultations of that sort between the four Powers mentioned by my noble friend. I can only repeat that we are very much in favour of an international agreement of this kind. We have made attempts in the past to seek such an agreement, both through the United Nations channels and by other means. But, as I have said—and I regret this very much—there has been no positive response to this proposal from the Soviet Union.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that if the Russians pursue their present policy there is bound to be an arms confrontation on the Canal for a period of time which cannot be foreseen, which might perhaps be the Russian intention; and does it not follow that we must base our policy, however much we do not like it, on that assumption?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, of course if the United Arab Republic and Arab countries continue to be supplied with arms, there is a very grave danger

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of a renewal of conflict in the area. I think that danger is a little further away than some might think, but it remains, and will do so so long as supplies of arms to the Middle East go on. But, as in many other things, this is not a problem we can solve on our own.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, what is the Government's view of the situation in the light of Press reports to-day that Russia is to be given two naval bases in Egypt? Will this not further exacerbate matters?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I cannot comment on that report. We have no direct evidence of the development the noble Lord has mentioned. But certainly if this sort of thing took place it would make the situation in the Middle East much worse.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, while waiting for international agreement to be reached—since Russia's rearming of Egypt is likely to make more difficult the task of United Nations' observers in the Middle East—would not Her Majesty's Government be justified in raising this matter at the Security Council?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, we take note of the noble Lord's suggestion. But I am afraid that this whole business of the supply of arms is one that, from our point of view, we can only regard as a matter to be judged on each individual application for arms. The action we take to try to achieve international agreement, multilateral agreement, on this is a matter for further study. We may be able to do it, as suggested, through the United Nations, or through other channels. We shall pursue it, and any other suggestions on this matter, with great urgency.

MOTORWAYS: EMERGENCY USE OF HARD SHOULDER
2.41 p.m.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why the driver of a car along a motorway, who draws out of the stream of traffic and stops his car on the hard
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shoulder, because he feels the onset of a heart attack, or is too exhausted to continue driving, becomes guilty of an offence, and is liable to prosecution.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the Motorways Traffic Regulations provide that a driver may stop on account of illness or any other emergency. A driver who stopped because of a heart attack would thus be unlikely to be found guilty of an offence. It is, of course, for the courts to decide whether a given case constituted an emergency; generally speaking, however, tiredness has not been regarded as such. To accept it as justification for stopping could result in widespread and indiscriminate parking alongside motorways.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he would not agree that a breakdown of the human machine on the motorway is far more dangerous to life than breakdown of a motor engine; and, without necessarily requiring any change in the existing law, could not the police be advised, in these circumstances, to consider the statements of a car driver with the utmost sympathy and understanding, especially when corroborated by medical evidence, so that the time of the courts is not taken up by ill-advised proceedings?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, naturally before making a charge the police take all factors into account, but, clearly, in the case of tiredness a driver should get off the road as soon as possible. I think I am right in saying that on the M.1 the longest distance between one point and another at which one can get off the road is some fourteen miles, and the average distance is three miles. Therefore a driver who feels that he should get off the road to have a rest should be able to do it without any difficulty.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that a driver who was feeling excessively tired would almost invariably drive dangerously? Therefore it would be far more sensible from the point of view of the safety of the public if he were to pull up on to the hard shoulder.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if a driver is so tired that he is a danger to

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the public, then clearly he should not be driving on the motorway.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, does the noble Lord recollect a case which received a good deal of publicity a few years ago, when a surgeon who had been operating was driving back along a motorway? He felt extremely sleepy and, realising that it was dangerous to go on, he pulled on to the side of the road. He was picked up by the police and was prosecuted, but the court refused to convict. Is that not a case to which attention might be drawn for future guidance?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am quite sure that if the court came to that view, it did so after taking all the evidence into account.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is general acceptance of the view that stopping on the hard shoulder is a very dangerous practice? It is most unlikely that anything other than a genuine reason would be accepted, and lighthearted reasons should not be accepted.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord may be quite accurate in saying that if we were to take a too lenient view of what a person might describe as "tiredness" our motorways would be littered with vehicles, the drivers of which had stopped to admire the scenery and would make tiredness an excuse. I think this is a matter which we should leave to the police and to the courts.

FUTURE BUSINESS
3.12 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with permission I should like to make a short business statement. It remains our hope and intention that your Lordships' House should rise for the Summer Recess on either Thursday or Friday of next week, subject to the progress of business. The Commons completed their consideration of the Companies Bill early this morning. The Government hope that the House will agree to take the consideration of the Commons' Amendments on Thursday of next week. It is proposed that the House should sit at 11 a.m., as is often the case prior to the Recess.
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In regard to to-day's business, there are some 83 Amendments to the Countryside (Scotland) Bill, and although the Scottish Peers are renowned for their brevity I think it is hard to believe that they could complete the Committee stage until a late hour. We also have the Second Reading of the Brighton Marina Bill, when an important Instruction may be moved. I therefore propose that we should adjourn the Committee stage of the Countryside (Scotland) Bill between 6.30 p.m. and 7 p.m., and then take the Second Reading of the Brighton Marina Bill. In view of the difficulties of Scottish Peers in sitting on Mondays, I should like to propose that the further consideration of the Countryside (Scotland) Bill be taken on Wednesday next. I hope it will be acceptable to the House if on that Wednesday we were to sit at 11.15 a.m. and take this Bill until 1 p.m., then to adjourn and to commence the Private Member's Bill at 2 p.m. If it is necessary—and hope it is not—we can complete the Countryside (Scotland) Bill after the Private Member's Bill.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, reverting to the first statement of the noble Lord, which he clothed in his usual very reasonable manner, the House has listened to an astounding request that the Commons Amendments on the Companies Bill should be considered next Thursday. With your Lordships' permission, perhaps I may recall the events which have led up to this situation, because I think this is an important principle.
The Companies Bill was introduced in this House on November 22 of last year, and it left this House for the Commons on January 31 this year. Six months later, and with only a week to go before the end of the Session, your Lordships are asked to consider what is practically a new Bill. Between 30 and 40 new clauses have been inserted and 200 Amendments made. All of them have been introduced in the Commons, and I think it is frankly preposterous that with a very few days in which to examine these Amendments we should be asked to consider what are, after all, very important changes in the Bill, and then only have one day to discuss them. Then—although the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, skated rather delicately over this—I

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understand it is the intention that the Bill should receive the Royal Assent on Thursday or Friday of next week, which of course means that your Lordships would not be able to send any of the Amendments back to another place.
I must say quite frankly that I regard this as treating your Lordships' House with contempt. The noble Lord the Leader of the House, and certainly the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, bear a great responsibility for what has happened. During the passage of the Bill through this House, time and time again the Lord Chancellor said that he was unable to accept any fundamental amendment to the Bill, and on one occasion he even threatened to withdraw the Bill if a fundamental Amendment was pressed. At the Committee stage, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack devoted one entire speech of six whole columns of Hansard to saying how impossible it was to enlarge the scope of the Bill, since Parliamentary time was not available. He said that if we were prepared to start the Companies Bill in this House it was to be on the clear understanding that it was not going to build up into anything more than 87 clauses.
What do we find? We find an almost entirely new Bill coming back to your Lordships' House. Why, if it was so necessary to have all these Amendments and new clauses, were they not inserted in this House, and why has it proved possible now to do something to enlarge the scope of the Bill which was impossible at that time? What has happened to make it more convenient and possible for the Parliamentary timetable to be expanded and to introduce this new Bill, in effect, at the end of a crowded Session? Many of these Amendments and new clauses were inserted at the Report stage in another place. They have been discussed, if at all only during an all-night sitting last night which finished at 6.30 o'clock this morning. Is this really the way to legislate in a matter of such importance as Company Law? It is not single-Chamber Government, it is not Chamber Government at all. It is rule by decree of the Board of Trade.
I really must say, in all friendliness, to the noble Earl the Leader of the House—he is not in his place but perhaps my remarks will be reported to him—that I am surprised that we have had no apology
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whatever from the Government about the way in which Parliament and this House in particular has been treated. I protest on behalf of my noble friends in the strongest possible terms. I must tell noble Lords opposite that when we come to take this Bill on Thursday, as I suppose we must, we shall have to examine it in the time available as best we can, and we shall do what we think is right and not what we think convenient for the Government.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I wish to add my protest to that of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. It really is quite monstrous that this House should be required to deal with these 30 new clauses and literally hundreds of Amendments made to the Companies Bill in another place in the period of one Parliamentary day. This House is meant to be a revising Chamber. We ought to be given the proper time and facilities with which to do the job. In our view, it is quite intolerable that we should have received this Bill at the tag-end of a long and very weary Session. It shows not only scant respect for this House but, to my mind, the incredible inefficiency in the Government's handling of Parliamentary business as a whole in both Houses. I would ask the noble Lord to represent our views most strongly to his colleagues in another place: that we regard this as completely inefficient and unacceptable. I am told that there is still a great deal wrong with this Bill. We ought to have the time to put it right. I hope that this will never happen main. When the next Companies Bill comes, which I understand will be in the next Session—and, in my view, it must be in the next Session—we shall expect to be able to put a number of things right, and to have proper time to do it.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I must admit that I anticipated the indignation of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and the noble Lord, Lord Byers. If I may say so, I have a good deal of sympathy with what they have said. I was anticipating a chorus of "Hear, hears!" on this side to join with the "Hear, hears!" of the noble Lords opposite. May I explain some of the difficulties that have arisen on this Bill? The noble Lord is quite correct in stating that the Bill started in your Lordships' House in

367
November and was sent to the House of Commons on January 31. It is perfectly true, too, that the Bill has become very much larger than when it was in your Lordships' House. But I will say this—and I bring it out of my memory because I see the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, opposite. Your Lordships were in some similar position in, I think it was, the 1960–61 Parliament, when we spent some 13 long and very weary weeks on the Weights and Measures Bill. My noble friend Lord Stonham played a very active part in it. We passed some 300 Amendments and the Bill went down to the other place and we never saw it again—or at least, we saw it again, but I think it was two years later. The noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, was on that occasion the President of the Board of Trade. At least we have got this Bill back to your Lordships' House.
I would ask noble Lords to bear this point in mind and the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, I think has shared this experience. Always at a Recess we are under pressure by Departments to get their Bills on the Statute Book. My noble friend Lord Kennet has been pressing me very hard for the Leasehold Reform Bill, on which we have yet to take the Report stage. He clearly is anxious to see that some leaseholders should not suffer as a result of the Bill being delayed. My noble friend Lord Hughes is very anxious about the Countryside (Scotland) Bill. I have had to refuse both of them; we cannot possibly do it by the Summer Recess. But there is a special case with regard to the Companies Bill. I expressed willingness to come to your Lordships' House with this proposal only after very careful investigation with the Department, and I am genuinely satisfied that there is a real and urgent need for the Bill to be passed.
I would say this to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. It is perfectly true this Bill has been in the House of Commons since January 31. It was a Bill that we had some hesitation in introducing. Part I was criticised, I think by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, in that it was incomplete. We would not have introduced the Bill, I believe, if it had not been for the need for Part II of the Bill, which gave us some powers to deal with insurance companies. The
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supervision of insurance companies was necessary because of the very heavy failures earlier in the year. We have got that Bill through the Commons. It took a long time, and there are a large number of Amendments to it. But I think I can say that all those Amendments were made to meet the criticism of the Opposition and the criticism of the reputable interested parties concerned. We have done our best to consult with all those concerned in this matter.
May I say this to the noble Lord, in view of his criticism of business management? To take that Bill, on not one single occasion was the closure moved in the House of Commons. If we had moved the closure, undoubtedly the problems that we now face could have been avoided. The Government felt it right to include provisions to strengthen the Board's powers of inspection and supervision of the insurance companies, and give new powers of inspection to assist in the rapid investigation of company fraud. There is great public pressure for that. If we fail to get this Bill for the Summer Recess, the Board of Trade will find themselves during the long summer months with no powers to deal with a number of serious matters. There are other compelling reasons. I will not deploy them now but I shall be ready to do so next Thursday.
I would say this to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. I recognise his difficulties in regard to Thursday. It is perfectly true that if we wish to get the Royal Assent by Thursday the Amendments cannot be amended. It still lies in the hands of this House to take all the necessary Amendments if they so wish, but clearly it will have to weigh up the consequences that might arise. We will do all we possibly can, with noble Lords opposite and noble Lords in any quarter of the House, to assist them in understanding the new provisions of the Bill. The Ministers concerned are willing to meet any noble Lord who wishes to have elucidation of any point or discuss any of these provisions. Timing, of course, will be a problem, but I hope that in discussion with noble Lords opposite it may be possible to group Amendments so that we can be more expeditious in our handling of the Amendments.
I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that it gives me no joy to

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come to your Lordships' House and make this proposal. I have carried out an exhaustive inquiry with the Board of Trade, and I would not have accepted it from the Board of Trade if it were merely a matter of departmental convenience. But I am convinced that it would be wrong not to get this Bill by the Summer Recess if we can get it, and I hope that we can have the co-operation of the House to do so.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the trouble with the noble Lord is that he is so entirely reasonable, and everybody he deals with on his side is so entirely unreasonable. The soft answer is supposed to turn away one's wrath. But it has not turned away my wrath. All the noble Lord has done is to give an explanation of what has happened; but there is no excuse for it. When you boil down what he has said, all it amounts to is that he is satisfied that the Government think that this Bill must be on the Statute Book by the Summer Recess. So this House is put in the position of either letting the Bill go through "on the nod", or having the Government say, "Because the House of Lords did not pass it, look what has happened". I think that is an intolerable situation for this House to be put in.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, why cannot the House sit a little longer? It is the people who are going to suffer. The noble Lord, who I agree is reasonable, talks about this House accepting the consequences. The noble Lord must not be surprised if, when this happens again, the House revolts and slings the Bill back in the teeth of another place.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lord, I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and to the House for not being here earlier. The noble Lord commented on my absence. Naturally, I take full responsibility for anything that Lord Shepherd has explained to the House. I would say that we are doing the best that can be done in the circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Byers, said that the House must not be surprised if some drastic action is taken next time. I have been in your Lordships' House for quite a long time, and I am never surprised at anything that happens here, but I should like to assure noble Lords that we shall try to avoid this happening again.
3.34 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two from this side of the House, if I may be given a moment or two. This matter of Company Law is one of great importance to the structure of industry and commerce in this country. I speak with a great deal of interest in this matter, because for a long period of years I held the Cassel Chair of Commercial Law in the University of London, and the problems of the impact of Company Law upon the structure of British industry and commerce have been my concern for a long time. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who was in effect the editor-in-chief of Law Reform Now, I think knows better than anybody else in your Lordships' House that I was part-author of the chapter on Company Law in that book, and therefore I speak with some knowledge. I assisted the then noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack to take the great Companies Act 1949 through your Lordships' House.
It is quite obvious that there are a number of pressing matters in relation to take-overs and other matters of that kind in this particular Bill. But the Bill affects the whole structure on which the industry and commerce of this country is carried on. Over the last 100 or 150 years the impact of Company Law upon the structure of our industry and commerce has become more evident all the time, and it seems to me that we are running a great risk in putting this legislation too rapidly on to the Statute Book. Obviously, we cannot really consider this position properly in the time which is available to us next week.
We have been coping for quite a number of years, not altogether successfully, with some of these problems under our present Companies Law, and it seems to me that it would be more sensible to go on for another year under these burdens in order to ensure that we get the new Companies Bill into proper order before it goes on to the Statute Book. Every one of us knows that it is difficult to amend the law once it is upon the Statute Book. It may be more than the two years which my friend Lord Shepherd has mentioned in connection with the Weights and Measures Bill, before we could get Amendments which might well become vital from the

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point of view, for example, of our export trade which is not unaffected by some of the matters contained in this Bill. Therefore, I should have thought that on the whole festina lente was the policy which ought to be pursued in this case, and it would be just as well to give the House a chance to deal with this matter in a proper constructive manner in the next Session rather than to insist on pushing it through now.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, from these Benches we suggest that, in view of the great importance of this Bill, the House should sit on Monday, July 31, in order to give it proper consideration.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, that suggestion from the Liberal Benches seems to be in conflict with the suggestion, indeed the proposal, that the Royal Assent should take place next Friday. There is no point in sitting later and perhaps into August if the Bill is to be put forward for Royal Assent next Friday. But I should like to echo and support what the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has said. We do not get so many Companies Bills before the House. It is difficult, as I think my noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale will agree, to find space in a Parliamentary programme for a Companies Bill; and when one comes it is of vital importance. All the clauses require most careful consideration, and it really is monstrous to seek to rush through all this vast mass of work in the short space of one Parliamentary day.
Is it not the case that the Government have their priorities wrong? May I ask the noble Lord to give consideration to a suggestion that I am going to put before him, which I think will at least in one part have the support of the Leader of the House? Why should we take up so much time in considering Private Members' Bills at this time of the year, when they are of far lesser importance, however one may view them, than a Companies Bill which affects the whole livelihood of this country? I would ask the noble Lord to consider whether some of the days which have been so generously allocated by the Government to Bills dealing with sexual offences and the termination of pregnancy, could not be used for the purpose of giving a proper study, even at this short notice, to the Companies
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Bill; to let those other Bills take their chance and, if need be, be re-introduced next Session. In some part of that proposal I am sure I have the support of the noble Earl the Leader of the House.
3.38 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, in supporting most strongly the protest of my noble friend Lord Carrington may I say at once that of course I recognise, as I think the House does, that what is occurring is not occurring through the wishes either of the Leader of the House or of the Government Chief Whip, whose reasonableness on this occasion is a great asset to the Government, and an asset which they do not deserve. Part of the difficulty, and the reason for which I cannot entirely support the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, is that no doubt there are parts of this legislation which are urgently needed, and there are other parts involved (the reform of the Companies Act), which deserve all the long and thoughtful consideration that the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, and my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne have indicated.
I rise really to ask one question and to point out one fact. The question I want to ask is, I think, a relevant one and one to which we have had no answer so far; namely, when are we going to see these Amendments in some printed document so that we can at least study them? That is the question. The second matter is this. The noble Lord, the Government Chief Whip, has spoken of the pressure of a Department to have this Bill carried into law. It is possible that about parts of this legislation the Department is perfectly right; but what we are doing this week in this matter is something which should be recognised by this House, by another place and by the country: it is legislation by decree, and it is the abolition of Parliamentary Government.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I intervene? Time is pressing, not only in the Session but also to-day. May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, that the Amendments in printed form will be available to-morrow—they will be printed to-morrow. I hope to be able to supply noble Lords who are interested with a précis of what those Amendments

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mean, to assist in this matter. I feel that a lot of steam is rising unnecessarily, because it is not the Government or the Government Chief Whip who imposes business on your Lordships' House; in the end, it is your Lordships who will it. I have proposed that we should take the Bill on Thursday. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, from the Liberal Benches has proposed that we should sit into the following week. If the House so wishes, then that is what we will do. But I think—and I come back to my experience, which the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, will share with me—that it is far better to wait and see. I am quite sure that when we take these Amendments the situation will not be anywhere near as bad as has been suggested to the House. I fully accept the constitutional position which the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, so strongly stressed. I certainly would have avoided this position now, and I will certainly take greater care to avoid it in the future.
3.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I feel I must enter some protest. I was the mover of the no-par-value clause. That was one clause which was turned down by the Government, despite the fact that noble Lords on other Benches as well as on our side supported it. It was turned down because it was said the Bill could not be enlarged. It is very rough to bring back this Bill with 30 new clauses and to have taken out the no-par-value clause. Are we expected to do nothing but accept the removal of that clause? The Government have given themselves added difficulty. They might have saved time in another House by accepting a clause which is generally considered to be of benefit to industry; instead of which they have taken it out and, so far as I can see, we shall have no time to reconsider this matter next week.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think that when the noble Viscount sees the Amendments he will see that the criteria of the Bill remain the same. In view of the time factor, may I say that the Government were right to take the line they did and continued to take through the Commons, in restricting the criteria of the Bill—but if the noble Lord is present next Thursday we may have some good news for him.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, it seems to me that this House is now discussing something when there is no Motion before the House. There is not even a Question before the House. There has been a Business Statement, to which justifiable protest, I think, has been made. It has been made strongly and rightly, and in the circumstances I think it would be quite wrong to go on discussing the merits or demerits of any Amendments. We shall have a chance to do that next week.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, might I reply to the procedural point? I understood that a Business Statement was made, and surely it is in order for us to discuss the Statement which was presented to us by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. But if the noble Lord, Lord Champion, would prefer it, I am certain my noble friend Lord Carrington would be happy to move the Adjournment of your Lordships' House, so that we could have a separate Motion and a separate discussion on the matter. If noble Lords would prefer that, I will encourage my noble friend to facilitate this debate.
But before I do so—I can see the noble Earl, Lord Longford, is very anxious to rise to his feet—I should like to put this particular point. I would especially reinforce what my noble friend Lord Eccles has said. It is not just a question of whether this is legislation affecting companies or anything else; the real affront to Parliament is that many Amendments have been tabled in another place by the Government only on the Report stage there, where it was virtually impossible to discuss or amend the Government's own Amendments. It is technically possible by means of a manuscript Amendment in another place, but it is virtually impossible to amend or improve the new clauses tabled at Report stage by Her Majesty's Government.
These new clauses are coming to our House on Thursday, and the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, made it quite clear that he expects to have the Royal Assent the following day. That means that if the Government's timetable is to be realised, there is no possibility of any Amendment at all. It means discussion with no possible means of amendment. Why discuss matters if there is no power

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to amend or to change? It is no good the noble Lord saying he will make facilities available and send us "memos" or briefs, and that the Department is pressing, and so on. The real point is that discussion on Thursday is completely meaningless if the Royal Assent is to take place on the Friday. We cannot amend if the Bill is to be law the following day. Even the Government cannot amend their own new clauses, because they cannot send them to another place and get them back in time. So we are here witnessing a complete affront to Parliament. That is my complaint. I feel very strongly about no-par-value shares, and I should like to put the clause back into the Bill; but, as I say, even the Government's own new clauses cannot be amended by the Government if the Bill is to get Royal Assent on Friday. That to my mind, is the worst feature of the sorry tale which we have heard to-day.

PORT OF LONDON BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

CONTROL OF LIQUID FUEL BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed; Bill reported without amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 14), Bill read 3a, and passed.

POLICE (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CRIMINAL LAW BILL [H.L.]
3.50 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My
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Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered. I would give notice that when Amendment No. 1 is moved I shall propose to your Lordships that Amendments Nos. 1 to 6 be considered en bloc.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

CRIMINAL LAW BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [References are to Bill (186) as first printed for the Commons]
  [Nos. 1 to 6]
  Clause 11, page 7, line 29, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
  ("(1) Subject to subsections (1A) to (2) below, this Part of this Act shall not extend to Scotland or to Northern Ireland.
  (1A) Subsection (1) above shall not restrict the operation of this Part of this Act—

  (a) in so far as it affects—

  (i) the Extradition Acts 1870 to 1935; or

  (ii) the Army Act 1955, the Air Force Act 1955 or the Naval Discipline Act 1957; or

  (iii) section 2 of the Forfeiture Act 1870 or any other enactment or rule of law relating to any parliamentary disqualification or other disability or penal consequence arising from an offence being felony; or

  (b) in so far as (by paragraph 10 of Schedule 2) it amends the Regimental Debts Act 1893.

  (1B) The amendments made by paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to this Act in section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 and section 15 of the Prevention of Crimes Act 1871 shall extend to Scotland.")
  Clause 12, page 7, line 44, leave out ("29th August 1967") and insert ("1st January 1968")
  Schedule 2, page 15, line 16, after ("property") insert ("but did not include loss or damage due to an accident arising out of the presence of a motor vehicle on a road")
  Schedule 2, page 15,line 26, leave out ("on") and insert ("in consequence of a")
  Schedule 2, page 15,line 27, leave out from ("or") to second ("of") in line 28 and insert ("is imprisoned or detained to serve a sentence")
  Schedule 2, page 15,line 53, at end insert (",and in the Companies Act 1948, in section 328(2), there shall be omitted paragraph (a) and in paragraph (b) the words 'in Scotland'")
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 6, en bloc. I shall explain them as briefly as possible, which I think will

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  be to your Lordships' convenience. Amendment No. 1 is a drafting Amendment relating to the application of Part I of the Bill to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Its effect, though, is the same as that of the subsection as originally drafted. Amendment No. 2 postpones the date on which Part I of the Bill comes into effect from August 29 this year until January 1, 1968. This was done to ensure that courts and practitioners had enough time to study the changes involved before they came into effect. Past experience has shown that many practitioners rely on information about changes in the law being published in a supplement to Archbold, and there would be insufficient time for that before August 29. It was therefore desirable to defer the date to ensure that all concerned had time to absorb the changes. To ensure the minimum inconvenience to the courts the date had to be one when there was a minimum of current business. The first convenient date to meet that requirement was January 1 next year.
  Amendment No. 3 to Schedule 2 is an Amendment of some substance and was made to meet representations by the Magistrates' Association, the Justices Clerks' Society and the Royal Automobile Club, that criminal courts ought not to have to consider awarding compensation for damage arising from motoring offences in which difficult issues of contributory negligence may arise. The Amendment excludes such damage from the provisions in paragraph 9 of Schedule 2 to the Bill which extends the powers of courts to award compensation under Section 4 of the Forfeiture Act 1870. Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 are both technical Amendments relating to an entry in Schedule 2 amending the Regimental Debts Act 1893, and they are required because of the provisions for suspended sentences in the Criminal Justice Bill.
  Amendment No. 6 was made to bring a provision in the Companies Act, in relation to the property of companies, in line with a comparable provision in relation to the property of bankrupts, which was already dealt with in paragraph 12(2) of Schedule 2 to the Bill. Under Section 328(2) of the Companies Act 1948, a person who takes in pawn or pledge or otherwise receives the property of a company in liquidation knowing it to have been disposed of in certain criminal circumstances,
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  is liable to be punished as if he had received the property knowing it to have been obtained by a misdemeanour. Under the present law this carries a maximum of seven years. The effect of the Bill without the Amendment, to which I now ask your Lordships to agree, would have been to increase that maximum to 14 years. The Amendment preserves the existing maximum of seven years in line with the provision in paragraph 12(2) of Schedule 2 to the Bill in relation to the property of bankrupts. That, briefly, is the effect of these Amendments, and I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Stonham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

COUNTRYSIDE (SCOTLAND) BILL
3.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
The Countryside Commission for Scotland
1.—
(4) The Commission shall be comprised of—

(a) persons appointed after consultation with such associations of local authorities as appear to the Secretary of State to represent local planning authorities;

(b) persons appointed after consultation with such organisations as appear to the Secretary of State to be representative of countryside interests; and

(c) such other persons as the Secretary of State may think fit.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: This is an extremely important clause because it sets up the Countryside Commission, and it also sets out in very broad terms what its functions and duties shall be. Subsection (2) says:
"In exercise of their functions the Commission shall have due regard to the need for the development of recreational and tourist

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facilities and for the balanced economic and social development of the countryside."
I feel that it would be desirable to have some mention of the existing uses of the countryside, so that the Commission shall not be entirely unmindful of how the land is used at the moment. That is why I am moving this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 13, after ("Commission") insert ("while mindful of the existing uses of land").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LORD HUGHES): A very similar Amendment to this was discussed in another place on Report stage, and my honourable friend the Minister of State explained that the Government did not dissent from the principle of the Amendment then moved. He said, however, that it was considered that in drafting terms it was tautologous. The clause refers to the need for:
"the balanced economic and social development of the countryside",
as the noble Duke has said. We maintain that if the Commission have regard to this—particularly to the word "balanced"—they cannot possibly fail to be mindful, as the Amendment would have them be, of the existing uses of land. In other words, we agree with the noble Duke, but consider that as the clause already means what he wants it to mean the Amendment is unnecessary.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Of course, I fully accept what the noble Lord has said. I just thought it was a good idea to put it in, so that anyone reading the Bill would realise what was intended. But I have no intention of dividing the House on this matter, so I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: This is an Amendment which is purely of a personal nature, in that I simply loathe the words "and social development". I think they make it sound as if the whole of Scotland were still inhabited by cavemen who drag their wives around by their hair. As the noble Lord opposite is well aware, that is not the case, so I should think it better to leave out those words. Also, I am not sure that the word
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"development" is right when what we want is progress. So in lieu of "and social development" I have suggested that we use the word "progress". I would also point out to the noble Lord—I know that Acts are never drafted in good English, which seems to be one of the penalties we pay for Parliamentary language—that the word "development" in line 14 makes rather ugly reading. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 15, leave out ("and social development") and insert ("progress").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
LORD HUGHES: If we take this Amendment at its face value—and, really, what the noble Duke has done is to invite us to take it at its face value—it suggests that he is concerned only about the economic development (or, as he says, progress) of the countryside, and not at all concerned about the social development. He has made it quite clear that that is not what he intends at all. Our intention, in including the word "social", was to ensure that the Commission were mindful of the legitimate needs and desires of the people who live and work in the countryside, and it had its genesis in the first meeting which my right honourable friend the former Minister of State had with a wide cross-section of countryside interests to discuss the Bill in February of last year. It was a point which was then emphasised. The Government did not need it to be emphasised to them, because it was very much in their mind, but that conference made it perfectly clear to the Government that it was just as much in the minds of many other people as well.
If we did what the noble Duke suggests, it could create the impression that all that we are concerned about is the economic development of the area; and we suggest to the Committee that it is necessary, in order to accomplish the full objects of the Commission, that these words should remain. I hope that the noble Duke will allow his dislike of the words "social development" to be submerged for the next few minutes.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, for his reply. Of course I am going to withdraw this Amendment, but I should like the noble Lord to consider, for the

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reasons I stated, the use of the word "progress" rather than "development". I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.2 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, in subsection (4), to insert at the beginning of paragraph (a) "not more than three". The noble Duke said: With the leave of the Committee, I shall speak to Amendment No. 4 at the same time. I regard these Amendments as rather more important in principle, although on reading the Bill more carefully, now that one has had greater time to do that, I fully realise that I should have put them down in a slightly different form. The way I put them down was based on the theory that the Commission were to be composed of 14 people willy-nilly, whereas it can, of course, be less than 14—and on the whole I think it should be less.
What I have suggested in Amendment No. 3 is that the people appointed in consultation with the local authorities should not be more than three, and in Amendment No. 4, that the people appointed as appearing to the Secretary of State to be representative of countryside interests should not be less than seven. Of course, I intended that approximately 20 to 25 per cent. of the Commission should be local authority people, and that at least 50 per cent. should be representative of the countryside interests, as they are the bodies who will be providing the raw material of this Bill—to wit, the countryside of Scotland. For this reason, I think they ought to have a large representation on the Commission.
I fully realise that, because of the way I have worded the Amendment, it will be impossible to work if, for instance, the Commission are to consist of only nine people or so. I can therefore assure the noble Lord opposite that I have no intention of pressing this Amendment, but I should like him to tell the Committee a little more about how the Government intend the Commission to be balanced between the three categories of people mentioned in subsection (4), what organisations they will be consulting as representing the countryside interests, and what kind of people the Secretary of State may think fit to appoint under paragraph (c) of subsection (4). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 5, at beginning insert ("not more than three").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: I should like to add my word of sympathy with the noble Duke's Amendment. I think the most important point about the composition of the Commission is that the members should be selected because of their knowledge of the countryside in all its aspects. They should not be townsmen if it is possible to avoid appointing them; and, as there are different kinds of countryside in Scotland, there should therefore be very different kinds of expert.
I do not know what the National Farmers' Union think of this. In a memorandum they sent round some weeks ago they very strongly advocated that the National Farmers' Union should be represented on this Commission. After all, a great deal of the land which is going to be used for access will be either abutting on or very close to farming land, and it is therefore very important, I think, that farmers should have some say in this matter.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should like to support what the noble Earl has just said. I would go a little further, because I think that obviously those on the Commission should represent both those who live in the countryside and those who are going to enjoy the countryside, whether they live there or not. But where I think the Amendments of my noble friend the Duke of Atholl are along the right lines is that the Bill as a whole lays great stress on the perpetual contact that the Countryside Commission is expected to have with local authorities. It therefore follows that the representation of local authorities on the Countryside Commission does not have to be so strong as the representation of the other bodies with which it is not going to be in quite such continuous contact, if indeed it is going to be in nearly such continuous contact.
I dare say that the noble Lord will point out that it is going to be in continuous contact with everyone. That, of course, is impossible; and we know that under Clause 12 there is a special duty laid upon the Commission to have consultation with local planning authorities and to keep in continuous contact with them. I would only say that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, will be aware that

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there is a feeling on this side of the Committee that the Bill is not quite so specific about the consultation that has to take place with other interests, and it would therefore be a good thing if those other interests were represented on the Commission as strongly as possible.
LORD HUGHES: There are two reasons why I am glad that the noble Duke has indicated that he does not intend to press these Amendments. In the first instance, we do not think it right that the Secretary of State's discretion in these appointments should be fettered in the way in which the Amendments propose. The second reason is that, while the Secretary of State has made it quite clear that it is his intention to appoint a rather large, unpaid body, the Bill has nevertheless been drafted in such a way as to make it possible for it to be a smaller, paid body; and if in future it should be found possible to change to that type of body, then of course an Amendment of this kind would make it impossible to have a body smaller than 10 in number—and theoretically more than 10 if the third leg is to have any meaning at all.
However, I should like to say that I think the noble Duke has his proportions pretty nearly right. I would not wish to guarantee that, if there were a body of 11 members, it would be 3, 7 and 1, but I do not think it would be very far away from those proportions. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships of what I said on Second Reading. I drew your Lordships' attention to the fact that in making appointments to the Commission it is my right honourable friend's intention to consult
"on as broad a basis as possible, so that the many organisations … who have interests in the countryside may feel reassured that their particular aspect of country life is not being overlooked and so that the Commission itself, when established, may be able to bring a widely informed view to bear on the determination of policy".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12/7/67, col. 1139.]
I hope your Lordships will recognise that my right honourable friend is very conscious of the vital need to secure the right balance on the Commission, and that the noble Duke will therefore in due course feel that what he has said to-day bears a very close relationship to what eventually will emerge from my right honourable friend's decision.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: If it is of any comfort to the noble Lord, may I say that I personally agree with him that the Commission should be reasonably large—not necessarily 14—and largely unpaid. I think, with him and with the Secretary of State, that this will probably be the most satisfactory form of Commission. This is what led me to put my Amendment in this form. I realise its defects and therefore, with permission, I should like to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.12 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved, in subsection (4)(b), after "organisations" to insert: "(including women's organisations)". The noble Baroness said: I rise to move Amendment No. 5; and I think the noble Lord is in no doubt as to my intentions. I have complained from time to time—and generally too late—that the composition of committees, commissions and inquiries in Scotland (and this applies to England, also, but I am speaking specifically about Scotland) does not include, in my opinion, a sufficient number of women. In our particular area on the Borders we have a Commission set up by the present Government to deal with the economic problems of the Border areas, which contains absolutely no women at all.
The Commission we are discussing today is to be one dealing with the whole of Scotland, and with the countryside of Scotland in particular. I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me that it helps people to lead happy lives in the countryside if they are members of happy families; if the wives are happy and satisfied to live in the country. If the Countryside Commission is going to be governed and directed, as are so many commissions, entirely by men, I think it is most unsatisfactory. I should therefore like to be sure that in selecting organisations to be represented on this Commission the Secretary of State does not omit the appropriate women's organisations. I can think of one or two obvious ones: the Scottish Women's Rural Institute, the National Farmers' Union, which has many women members, and the Church of Scotland Women's Guild in the Rural Areas which has active women

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workers. I have suggested that the words "including women's organisations" should appear in subsection (4)(b) in order that the interests, abilities and activities of women should be represented on this Commission. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, after ("organisations") insert ("(including women's organisations)").— (Baroness Elliot of Harwood.)
LORD HUGHES: Although I am going to invite the noble Baroness not to press this Amendment, I can honestly say that I am happy it has been put down, for it gives me the opportunity of making clear the Government's attitude to this matter. We welcome the co-operation of women's organisations and look forward to the contributions they will make to the fulfilment of the aims and purposes of the Bill.
For two reasons, however, I feel that the Amendment is unnecessary and, indeed, undesirable. In law—and I hesitate to use these words—the greater includes the less; and the word "organisations" covers all organisations, including women's organisations—although I know, of course, that the noble Baroness probably thinks I should have said, "the lesser includes the great". Secondly, if we were to mention the women's organisations specifically we might appear to be discriminatory and restricted. This, as the noble Baroness knows, is a point of view which Governments frequently have to express. For instance, if one singles out a specific item for special mention, one draws away from the value of the general description.
We are particularly appreciative of the work of some of the organisations the noble Baroness mentioned. For example, I can say without the slightest hesitation that the S.W.R.I. will be one of the organisations which will be consulted. I am not certain that the N.F.U. would be quite happy at having itself described as potentially a women's organisation; but never mind. Some of the other organisations, perhaps all of them, will be consulted. What would be helpful to the noble Baroness is for me to say that I will make it quite clear to my right honourable friend that if this body emerges without a woman among its members the noble Baroness will make my life miserable.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. I expected that I should get a sympathetic answer. I know from the conversations that I have had with him that he is sympathetic to my point of view. I hope, having put the Amendment down and having drawn the attention of the Secretary of State to it, when the moment comes for the appointments to be made it will have served its purpose. I have pleasure in asking leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask a question on one technical point? I pose it on logical grounds. It concerns subsection (7) of Clause 1, which debars a Member of Parliament from serving as Chairman of the Countryside Commission for Scotland. If your Lordships would care to look at Schedule 1, paragraph 3, you will see that it says:
"The Commission may pay to any of the members of the Commission such remuneration … as the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury, determine."
It may be, if a Member of Parliament were put on the Commission, that the Secretary of State would not pay him anything; on the other hand, the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has just said that one day there might be a smaller body consisting entirely of paid members. If you provide for all members to be paid, there does not seem to be any logical ground why you should except any particular member, and, contrariwise, if you have a Member of Parliament it does not seem proper that he should be paid. I wonder whether the noble Lord would comment on that subject. It seems, in the circumstances, that it probably would be better not to have a Member of Parliament on the body.
LORD HUGHES: I am not absolutely certain about this—I should like to have the opportunity to consult—but, speaking off the cuff, I should think that the last clause of the Bill, because it refers to the House of Commons Disqualification Act, really implies that Members of the House of Commons will not be members of this Commission. I remember when I was a member of a Regional Hospital Board, the members of which are not paid, the

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very fact that they could be entitled to reimbursement of their travelling expenses and also, I think, payment in lieu of loss of remuneration, disqualified a Member of the House of Commons from being a member of that Board. I think the same position, therefore, applies here. I should be surprised if any Member of the House of Commons were to be so enthusiastic about membership of the Countryside Commission that he would give up his membership of another place in order to become a theoretically unpaid member of the Countryside Commission.
LORD DRUMALBYN: With respect, I think the noble Lord is thinking of the position before the 1957 Act was passed. In those days it would have been an office of profit under the Crown, and it would, for that reason, have been impossible for a Member of Parliament to hold the office, whether paid or not. But the present Act proceeds simply by naming those offices which are closed to Members of Parliament.
LORD HUGHES: Perhaps the noble Lord will give me the opportunity to look into this matter. We have ample time before the next stage of the Bill. If we make slow progress, there may be ample time before the conclusion of this Committee stage to inform him on this point.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [The Countryside]
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.20 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I should like to ask one brief question on this clause. In the transitional stage, before the countryside is defined by maps, the biggest town we can have will be one with fewer than 5,000 inhabitants. When the maps are drawn up, in the event of it being found—and I do not think that it is entirely impossible—that there are towns, rural in character, with a certain beauty that needs preserving, which happen to have over 5,000 inhabitants, will it be possible to include them in the countryside, or must the countryside consist only of areas where the inhabitants are fewer than is included in the transitional stage?
LORD HUGHES: My impression would be that it should be possible to do as the noble Duke has asked. In the absence of maps, this is a rough and ready way of determining what is the countryside, and it was felt that by fixing the figure of towns with a population of 5,000 or less there would be no difficulty. But once we get down to the mapping it would be my impression that the limit of 5,000 would not be binding in relation to the preparation of these maps.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Duties of the Commission
3. The Commission shall have the following duties—
(a) to keep under review all matters relating to the provision, development and improvement of facilities for the enjoyment of the countryside, the conservation and enhancement of its natural beauty and amenity, and the need to secure public access to the countryside for the purposes of open-air recreation; and to consult with such local planning authorities and other bodies as appear to the Commission to have an interest in those matters;
(e) to advise the Secretary of State or any other Minister or any public body on such matters relating to the functions of the Commission as he or they may refer to the Commission or as the Commission may think fit.
4.22 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved, in subsection (3)(a), after "bodies" to insert "including public and other authorities in England". The noble Baroness said: I rise to move this Amendment which was put down originally by my noble friend Lord Inglewood and is designed to include in consultations those authorities that are joined with the Scottish authorities where the Borders meet. The two areas of which I am thinking in particular are the line of the Solway and the line of the Tweed. In my opinion it would be a great mistake if, in respect of consultations about functions, consideration was not given to those authorities which although technically in England adjoin the Scottish areas. Even though the Minister may think, as I believe he does, that consultation takes place between the Scottish and English authorities, I am told by my noble friend Lord Inglewood, who lives on the Solway side, that in

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respect of planning consultation does not take place. Very often planning is carried out on one side and the other side has not the slightest idea of what is being planned. Therefore I think that if both sides of a given area are involved we shall be quite sure that both sides are consulted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 8, after ("bodies") insert ("including public and other authorities in England").—(Baroness Elliot of Harwood.)
LORD HUGHES: Strangely enough, the acceptance of the Amendment would have the opposite effect to that intended by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, who was originally to have moved the Amendment. I am in complete sympathy with what he wants to do, and I am certain that what I have to say will reassure him. I am advised that the Amendment is not required to enable us to achieve his objective, and the clause as drafted permits the Commission to consult any other body which appears to them to have an interest in the matter to which subsection (3) refers. It is hardly surprising that the advice which I have given goes as far as this. It makes it quite possible to consult bodies whether in Scotland, England, America, Australia or anywhere else.
If the Amendment were accepted, it could be argued that the Commission were restricted to consulting bodies in Scotland and England only. We should not be happy about that because, of course, much useful work of this kind is being performed in other parts of the world, and we should wish the Commission to be quite free to consult any bodies anywhere if their advice could be helpful. Having said that, may I also say we accept that there must be particular consultation between England and Scotland on this matter, and I am certain that the arrangements which will be made in due course will ensure that consultation between England and Scotland in these matters is particularly close and continuous.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I thank the noble Lord very much for his answer. I am much reassured by it. I did not realise that one might stray as far away as other continents. The consultations about which I am concerned are those between neighbouring
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authorities, North and South and East and West. If we may be perfectly sure that people do consult with their next door neighbours, I shall be happy to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.25 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, in paragraph (e) to leave out "functions of the Commission" and insert "countryside". The noble Duke said: This is the first of my Amendments designed to broaden the scope of the Commission so far as they are concerned with advice about what public bodies are doing. As I read this Bill—no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, will tell me I am wrong—the Commission can only advise the Secretary of State or any other Minister on matters which refer to the functions of the Committee, or any other public bodies. So presumably, if a public body referred a particular problem to the Commission they could advise even if, technically, the matter was outside the scope of the Commission.
I believe that the functions of the Commission do not officially include giving planning advice to public bodies where they are going to carry out development on their own land. I should have thought that the Commission ought to be empowered to advise in these circumstances, whether or not their advice was sought. Therefore, I have put down an Amendment that we should omit the words "functions of the Commission", and say they should give advice on any matter relating to the countryside; remembering that throughout this Bill the "countryside" refers to the countryside as defined in Clause 2. Not only would this get over the particular problem of undesirable development by public bodies on their own land, but I think it makes this subsection slightly easier to understand. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 22, leave out ("functions of the Commission") and insert ("countryside").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
LORD HUGHES: I do not think that this Amendment is strictly necessary, but I accept that it is logical that this particular part of the Bill should refer to the countryside as a whole. In those circumstances, I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I should like to thank the noble Lord very much.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 3, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, one question which relates to paragraph (b)? The Commission is to have the duty
"to encourage, assist, concert or promote the implementation …"
I want to be quite sure about this. Many Acts of Parliament, and indeed this clause, lay duties to advise, and I am not clear why there is no duty to advise in paragraph (b). It may be included in the word "assist", but if it is not I should have thought it might be desirable to add the word "advise".
LORD HUGHES: I think the words "encourage" and "assist" will include the word "advise", but if it should prove that because of Parliamentary usage they do not, and it is necessary to add the word "advise", then it will be done at the next stage.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Powers of the Commission]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I have put down this Amendment purely to discover whether the Commission have the power to help other bodies to carry out campaigns which the Commission think useful. I am thinking particularly of the "Keep Britain Tidy" campaign. If the Commission were in existence at the present time, would they be able to give a grant towards the "Keep Britain Tidy" campaign? If the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, says, "Yes", I shall be entirely satisfied. If he says, "No", I think that he might accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 7, at end insert ("and to make contributions towards the expenses of any other body engaged in such activities").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
LORD HUGHES: I hope that the noble Duke will forgive me if I do not answer him in as few words as he wants me to do. The position is that, so far as persons other than public bodies are concerned, Clause 7 gives adequate power to the Commission to give grants for any
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project to educate or inform people how to behave in the countryside. Your Lordships will have observed that we have not made any provision for the Commission to give grants or to make contributions to public bodies. We consider that public bodies ought to be able to stand on their own feet as regards finance. But it should also be noted that the clause as drafted permits the Commission to join with another public body in the type of activity or project we are discussing and then they could pay their share of the cost.
In other words, we are all for the Commission contributing when they are directly involved in the project, but for projects in which they are not playing an active part, we do not think it right that they should be able to make financial contributions to other public bodies which have their own direct channels of assistance from the Exchequer. I think therefore that the Bill as drafted meets satisfactorily the different circumstances which can arise, and I hope the noble Duke will agree. The "Keep Britain Tidy" movement is a private body, and therefore the noble Duke can take it that it would not be excluded.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I am entirely satisfied and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Powers of Commission in relation to development projects or schemes]:
4.32 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
"( ) The powers conferred by paragraph (h) of subsection (1) above shall not be exercised if the Commission are already carrying on a similar business or undertaking elsewhere."
The noble Duke said: Clause 6 gives to the Commission various powers in relation to development projects or schemes. In subsection (1)(h) the Commission are empowered, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to set up or carry on almost any form of business or undertaking. The Minister of State told another place that the Commission would get

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approval from the Secretary of State to set up only what he called prototype developments and that they would not be allowed to set up, say, a chain of hotels throughout Scotland. I have tried to draft an Amendment to make it perfectly clear that all the Commission may do under paragraph (h) is to undertake prototype developments. This will have the advantage of bringing the Bill into line with what I gather is the intention of the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 3, at end insert the said subsection.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
LORD HUGHES: I cannot accept the noble Duke's Amendment simply because it is not necessary to do this in order to bring the clause into line with what the Government want. We have to read Clauses 5 and 6 together, because the detailed powers set out in Clause 6 are limited by the functions conferred by Clause 5 and cannot exceed them. The type of project which may be carried out by the Commission is explained by Clause 5(1)(a), and this goes a long way towards meeting the purpose of the Amendment. As the Minister of State said in another place:
"This subsection restricts the Commission to new projects or those which it has not tried in areas of a similar kind".
For example, if the Countryside Commission had promoted a ski-lift in the Cairngorms they would have been able to operate it, but they would not have been able to promote and operate additional ski-lifts in the same area. It is possible that a ski-lift might be wanted in another area where the problem was totally different and where no one was interested and prepared to try it out. If the Amendment were accepted, it would be impossible for the Commission to do this. While we want the Commission to be kept to prototypes and not to go setting up chains of hotels such as the noble Duke suggested, this Amendment could prevent them from carrying out even prototype activities. I hope that the noble Duke will accept that the Bill as drafted will work in the way in which he would wish it to work if this Amendment were put in.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, for that reply. I fully appreciate the deficiency in my Amendment. I think it would be a disaster
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if the Countryside Commission were not allowed to set up ski-lifts elsewhere, if they thought it necessary, simply because they already had one. Needless to say, I was not thinking of that sort of development when I put down my Amendment. It rather worries me that if they have one ski-lift under Clause 5 they will not be able to set up another one in the same place, and it might be desirable, but immensely uneconomical, for someone to set up another because of the crowds going to ski. I rather think that we should try to loosen Clause 5 so that it would enable the Commission to do this if they felt it necessary. As I have indicated, I will withdraw this Amendment and perhaps the noble Lord will think over what I have said before the next stage.
LORD HUGHES: It was not my intention to over-convince the noble Duke.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
Clause 9, [Areas of special planning control]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"( ) Public bodies shall submit to the local planning authority for planning permission any development or any class of development which they propose undertaking in an area of special planning control."
The noble Duke said: This is my effort at the Amendment I foreshadowed in my speech on Second Reading, when I said that I thought the negative powers of the Commission were not great enough to enable them to stop public bodies from undertaking undesirable developments in the countryside. I appreciate that it is probably difficult to stop public bodies from carrying out any undesirable developments in the countryside in Scotland, but I think that in these areas of special planning control, which are created under Clause 9 because of some natural feature which is particularly beautiful, or interesting, or of scientific importance, public bodies should be required to consult the Countryside Commission before undertaking any development; and, what is more, the approval of the Commission should be required. In order to achieve this, my Amendment

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provides that a public body must submit any development to the local planning authority. Clause 9 already says that the local planning authority must consult with the Commission before giving agreement to any form of development. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 10, at end insert the said subsections.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
LORD BURTON: I should like to support the noble Duke on this Amendment. Not far from Inverness a golf course was set up on some of the best agricultural land in the country. I understand that this never went before the local planning authority, because the ground already belonged to the Secretary of State. This is the sort of thing which I think should be stopped. It might have been much more serious in a place of scenic beauty.
LORD LEATHERLAND: This is a Scottish field day in your Lordships' House. I am not a Scot, and I tread with some trepidation across the Border. But I shall watch with close attention the answer that my noble friend on the Front Bench gives to this suggested Amendment, because this is precisely the situation with which we are confronted in Essex, where the Government are proposing to take away from my County Council the local planning powers which they now exercise and to vest those powers in a public Board, the Air Force Authority. So that if my noble friend is going to concede this Amendment to the noble Duke, then I think that we in Essex may have some claim on his fellow Minister when we say that we, the County Council, want to retain our complete planning powers in the area and not hand them over to an outside authority.
LORD HUGHES: I am afraid I cannot give any joy to my noble friend or the noble Duke. This Amendment is one which the Government feel would impose far too onerous a requirement on public bodies. Most of them are given certain freedom under the Planning Acts in relation particularly to minor developments, and to certain developments relevant to their statutory purposes. Under the General Development Order these bodies do not need to apply for planning permission for such developments, because it is granted to them generally by the
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Order, which defines a number of classes of "permitted development".
The Amendment would mean that these bodies would need to go to the local planning authority even about their otherwise "permitted development" proposals in the designated areas. The noble Duke has not, however, proposed that private developers should be under a similar obligation, and these also have considerable freedom under the Order—for example, certain farm buildings are permitted development, as also are certain alterations and additions to dwelling-houses. I cannot see why public bodies should be restricted in the manner proposed, particularly as powers exist under the Planning Acts (as distinct from those in this Bill) which could be used, if necessary, to fortify the powers given by Clause 9 in areas of special control by restricting permitted development therein.
I appreciate, however, from what the noble Duke said on Second Reading, that it is not minor developments in which he is interested; he is concerned to prevent something like a "Cow Green" or an "Abingdon gas works" from happening in Scotland. I can assure him that this Amendment is not necessary to achieve this object. Cow Green was a special case, and the details of it—which have already fully engaged your Lordships' attention—are not really relevant to the present issue. Suffice it to say that under this Bill the Countryside Commission would already have a very effective voice which they could make heard if similar circumstances were to arise in Scotland. As regards Abingdon gas works, surely the successful outcome of this case, from the amenity point of view, is proof positive that statutory undertakers like the Gas Board are subject to planning permission for their major works; and that is how this case was taken up—and this applies generally, not only to areas of special planning control. Adequate arrangements already exist therefore under the Planning Acts for the Secretary of State to supervise these major developments of the statutory undertakers—and also under administrative procedures to oversee proposed developments from other Government Departments—and these can be supplemented, if necessary, in areas of special planning control without the insertion of this Amendment. I

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hope that with these assurances the noble Duke will agree to withdraw his Amendment, and that he will feel that the point of major importance to which he referred on Second Reading is taken care of, and that this Amendment is not necessarily in order to prevent these major disasters in Scotland.
4.46 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I am entirely unconvinced by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. The only thing that saddens me is that the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, is in the Chair and therefore cannot speak. I feel confident that she would support me. The National Parks Commission did their best to stop Cow Green, and, if I may say so, they had absolutely no success. In the case of the Abingdon gas works, the Gas Board, three weeks earlier, sent a letter to a reporter of the local newspaper in which they said they proposed to build this gasometer 168 feet high on land which they already owned in Abingdon. The reporter of the newspaper rang up the chairman of the local planning authority and the chairman of the Abingdon Town Council, neither of whom had heard any word about it. Therefore, the Gas Board's idea of consultation was to announce what they were going to do, and to say that they were going to start in three weeks. That is not my idea of consultation.
The only reason why they were prevented from doing what they proposed was that there was such an outcry, for which the credit goes to certain newspapers—in some of which I hasten to declare an interest; but there were others. As a result, the Gas Board have been bribed (I can put it no other way), by the local planning authority's agreeing to pay a large part of the difference, to put in what I think are called high-pressure gasometers, which are smaller. But had not sufficient indignation been aroused—and this was a particularly glaring example—nothing would have happened, and they would have been allowed to get away with it.
I fully appreciate what the noble Lord said about private developers. I have never understood why a large agricultural building needs planning permission and yet a small agricultural building, which is quite ugly, does not. I cannot
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see the logic of this. There ought to be some method laid down whereby an ugly building can be objected to even if it is an agricultural building. We are getting short of attractive places, places of scientific interest and so on, and we should not risk them in this way. I am very surprised that the noble Lord has not been prepared to hold out some hope that at any rate the sort of cases of which I have given examples can be brought within the purview of the Countryside Commission. Frankly, I am entirely unconvinced by his statement that, so far as the Gas Board were concerned in the case of Abingdon, they would have had to consult, because I know that they had no intention of consulting. I should like the noble Lord to comment on this, and hold out to me some ray of hope that we may be able to achieve something before the next stage of the Bill.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Before the noble Lord replies, perhaps I may put this point to him. I think that what my noble friend, and the whole Committee, desire is that where areas are to be given a special planninig control, with a unified supervision of the whole area, then whatever applies to the private sector in the way of development should apply also to the public sector. In other words, if all applications for planning permission in the private sector can be called in by the Secretary of State then he should automatically have the same kind of oversight over the public sector without taking any special measures to ensure it. It should all be in the Bill. It should not be necessary to invoke the Planning Acts, if the Secretary of State thinks it necessary to do so. I think this is what my noble friend has in mind, and I should have thought that it was right.
LORD HUGHES: Yes, But we have to take account of the different administrative machines which exist in the two countries. I speak without knowledge of how close is the connection of Government Departments on this side of the Border, but we have to remember that the Secretary of State is head of a great many Departments. I know that the Gas Board is one of the few cases which does not come under his direct control—because the Gas Board comes under the Minister of Fuel and Power—whereas the Electricity Boards come directly under the

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Secretary of State, but no one knows better than the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, that it is very difficult for the Gas Board to be doing much of any major importance without the Secretary of State's being aware of it. So the circumstances to which the noble Duke referred just could not happen in Scotland.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Obviously there is no point in pursuing this argument now. We can pursue it again at a later stage. But I must say that I am supremely unconvinced by the answer of the noble Lord. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clause 10 [Provision for public access to open country]:
4.51 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (2), to leave out all words after "any land", down to "consist", and insert "consisting". The noble Lord said: We now come on to Part II, which deals with access to the open country and which is perhaps the most important Part of the Bill. This first Amendment of mine has to do with the interpretation of the words "open country". Subsection (2) says:
"In this Part of this Act 'open country' means any land appearing to the authority with whom an access agreement is made or to the authority by whom an access order is made or by whom the land is acquired, as the case may be, to consist wholly or predominantly of …"
and it goes on to give a definition of the term "open country" which closely resembles that of livestock rearing areas.
The point I have in mind is this. Here, again, what one wants is a uniform interpretation of the phrase "open country". I have in mind that uniformity of interpretation of the "livestock rearing area" definition is assured because Her Majesty's inspectors, the Department of Agriculture inspectors, are empowered to decide what is a livestock rearing area, with a view to giving grants of various kinds. I should have thought it was highly desirable to have the same kind of unified interpretation here.
The Amendment I have put down—which would be to leave out the words
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"appearing to the authority", and so on, and simply to say "consisting wholly or predominantly"—is very much in line with the "livestock rearing area" definition; and I should have thought that this would be the right way to do it. But it would not be the only way. It would equally be possible to say, "appearing to the Commission to be open country". That also would ensure uniformity of interpretation. If the Amendment I am proposing were accepted, in the end you would get, I suppose, an appeal to the courts, or something of that kind, if it was thought that the local authority was interpreting the area to be open country when it was not really open country, as generally interpreted, at all. The purpose of this Amendment is to draw attention to the need for this uniform interpretation.
I would point out to the noble Lord that while the Commission are bound, under Clause 12 and elsewhere, to consult with local authorities, local planning authorities are not obliged to consult with the Commission. There seems to be nothing to prevent them from putting their own interpretation without asking the Commission; although I would agree that the Commission are always empowered to give advice to the local planning authority. But the local planning authority may have taken their decision before the advice arrives, or without seeking the advice. The purpose of this Amendment is purely to secure uniformity, and I hope that the noble Lord will be able to suggest some way in which that can be done, rather than leaving it entirely to the discretion of the local planning authority.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 15, leave out from beginning to end of line 17, and insert ("consisting').—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BALERNO: I should like to support my noble friend on this point, both on uniformity and, more so, on clarity for the ordinary man who may be having to read this provision in future.
LORD HUGHES: I am sorry, but, although I have sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said, I cannot advise your Lordships to accept the Amendment. The words which the Amendment seeks to delete have really worked well in practice, because they are taken from the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, and, so far as I am advised, they have not given rise

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to any difficulty in England and Wales. In practice, given reasonable people—landowners and local planning authorities alike—I find it very difficult to foresee any circumstances in which there would be dispute as to what comprises "open country" as defined, but, if there were a dispute, I think it is right that discretion to make the initial assessment of what is, or is not, open country should lie with the local authority. Otherwise, if we accept the noble Lord's Amendment, action, at worst, could be completely stultified by lack of agreement; or, at best, could be delayed while reference, as he has indicated, could be made to the courts for a decision.
I think your Lordships will appreciate, in any case, that the circumstances in which this point would be of any significance would be rare—in fact, only in the case of access orders. Where access agreements are concerned there will obviously be no dispute between the parties, otherwise the agreement would not be made. In the case of access orders, I would remind your Lordships that these are subject to confirmation by the Secretary of State, with all the normal safeguards for people affected to have their objections heard. If it emerged during this statutory process that there was a dispute as to whether the land concerned was open country or not, then this is something which could be impartially inquired into, and the ultimate decision taken would rest with the Secretary of State. Thus, the final discretion does not lie with the local planning authority. In so far, therefore, as it is necessary in matters of disputed types of country to have uniformity, this will be achieved through the Secretary of State; and this, I would suggest, from past experience, is much more likely to be quickly and more cheaply accomplished than by reference to the courts, which would be the position if there were no discretion given to the local authority in the first place.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am obliged to the noble Lord for his reply, but I am a little surprised to hear from him that in this matter the final decision as to whether any particular piece of country is open country or not does not
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lie with the authority, because the words are, quite clearly, "it must be land that appears to the authority to consist …". Nobody can override that. The Secretary of State may decide to give a direction, but it must still be in regard to land which appears to the local authority to be open country. I hope that the noble Lord will consider this matter further, because I am not absolutely satisfied that he is right on this point.
LORD HUGHES: The advice I have been given is that this matter arises only in the case of access orders. Because in the case of access agreements, if there is a dispute as to whether land is open country, an agreement will not be made in the first instance. Therefore, the question arises only in the case of an order, and the procedure gives full rights to the person who does not think the local authority is right. If a person thinks that the local authority is wrong in deciding it is open country, this will be one of the grounds upon which to object. The Secretary of State will take that into consideration, and if the Secretary of State is impressed by the arguments he will not confirm the order, or he will grant the appeal, whichever is the appropriate form of wording. In, these circumstances, so far as that particular access order is concerned, it does not matter then what the local authority's view as to open country is, or is not. If a man has won his appeal by convincing the Secretary of State that the local authority is wrong, he does not need to worry whether the local authority is still of the same opinion or not.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I think where I differ from the noble Lord—and one does not want just to chop logic on this—is that the whole definition is "access for open-air recreation to open country", and then "open country" is defined. I think in his reply the noble Lord has been looking at this purely from the point of view of the landlord, if I may say so, and not from the point of view of the public. I shall not pursue this point, but perhaps he will consult further with his advisers. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "wholly or predominantly of mountain, moor, heath, hill, woodland", and insert:
"of land not capable of supporting more than one ewe to five acres or unenclosed woodland or".
The noble Viscount said: I have put down this Amendment because on Second Reading I expressed great dissatisfaction with the definition of "open country" that is contained in the Bill. If I may just read the definition, it is
"to consist wholly or predominantly of mountain, moor, heath, hill, woodland, cliff or foreshore …"
The word to which I chiefly object is "predominantly", because that is not really a clear enough definition, and I am quite sure that if that word is left in the clause it will lead to a great deal of argument. It is far too indecisive.
I consider that my Amendment helps greatly to clarify the situation, because, after all, what do we mean by "open country"? We really mean rough hill grazing, and if we take my definition,
"of land not capable of supporting more than one ewe to five acres or unenclosed woodland or"
we there have a perfectly clear definition of rough grazing—in other words, of open country. This definition also has the advantage of taking the enclosed land and what we call the "in-by" land of the livestock rearing areas out of "open country". In effect, it takes the "in-by" land of the livestock rearing areas out of the definition of "open country" because, as the Bill is at present drafted (although, strictly speaking, this comes into Clause 11) the livestock rearing lands are not "excepted lands". They come under the definition of "open country".
To include all the livestock rearing areas in the definition of "open country" I am quite sure would mean endless friction, because some of these livestock rearing areas are extremely heavily stocked. The Livestock Rearing Act of 1951 was, in my view, much too wide in its definition, because it included enclosed land and "in-by" land and all hill land, which of course is too all-embracing. If we have this broad definition of "open country" in the Bill, with the word "predominantly", we
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shall have a great deal of trouble with farmers. I pointed out on the Second Reading that there will probably be accidents, with hikers being chased by cows with calves; gates will be left open and there will be great trouble at lambing time. The farmers' task in the heavily concentrated livestock rearing areas is going to be made that much more difficult.
The other point that my Amendment brings out is the subject of woodlands. In the Amendment I have referred to "unenclosed woodland". Of course I am thinking chiefly of young plantations, and if the public, under an access order, is going to have access to young plantations, apart from all other woodlands, the disturbance to wild life and, in particular, the fire hazard are going to be quite uncontrollable. I quite agree that under Clause 19 an order can be made in the event of very dry weather, forbidding public access to certain woodlands. However, I do not consider that that is really satisfactory, because by the time the order is made and the public are aware of that order there could be a fire. The average mature woodland is of course unenclosed, so that is not affected, but I should feel far happier if enclosed woodlands were not included in "open country". I really think that is quite a feasible request to make. But the most important point is that I should like to have the definition of "open country" classed as "rough grazing hill country", and this I consider my Amendment would do. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 18, leave out from beginning to ("cliff") in line 19 and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
LORD HUGHES: There was a lengthy discussion in another place about what categories of access land should be automatically excepted, and my honourable friend the Minister of State said that the Government were willing to look at the matter again. At the same time, I think it is correct to say that he warned against drafting the Statute so restrictively that we should prevent ourselves from doing things which individually, as farmers, as landowners, as Secretary of State, or—I might add—as local planning authority members, we should be willing and perhaps even eager to do ourselves.

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There was a suggestion that all agricultural land except hill farming land should be excepted. This idea was, however, rejected—rightly in my view—because it would have meant that access arrangements could have been made only to the higher land. It is true that this would have enabled us to satisfy some part of the need for public access to open country, but there are areas where it would have unduly restricted the possibilities. We settled on livestock rearing land, not because there is any likelihood of access being sought to anything like all of it but because it seemed to us to comprehend all the types of agricultural land to which access could reasonably be sought.
The noble Viscount knows, I am sure, that the words we have used—"mountain, moor, heath, and cliff" were in both the Access to Mountains Act 1939 and the National Parks Act 1949. The only alteration that we have made, so far as I know, is that we have altered the English word "down" to "hill".
The Amendment would be much too restrictive, much more restrictive even than "hill farming land". For example, it introduces difficulties of interpretation. In assessing the sheep-carrying capacity of land are we, for instance, to take the farm as a unit, or the whole area over which access is sought, or should we have to assess it acre by acre? I am advised that if we used the farm as the basis, virtually all of the Borders and South-West Scotland would be out, and we should be left only with remote or high-lying areas like the Cairngorms and parts of Argyll, Inverness-shire, Wester Ross, Sutherland and Caithness. Secondly, there would be the problem of assessing the carrying potential of the land, and, as your Lordships are well aware, this can vary according to methods and standards of management. Not only that, but sheep are moved in the winter. When would the assessment be made?
The Amendment would also insert the word "unenclosed" before "woodland". We should all, I think, accept that access to young plantations does not make sense in practical terms, as anyone who has tried to make his way through a young conifer plantation knows. But this can, I think, be left to the good sense of the local planning authority and the occupier. The noble Viscount will, I am sure, have
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noted the provisions of Clause 15—I think he referred to them—which provide recourse to the Secretary of State for an occupier who considers that a local planning authority is being unreasonable in a matter of this nature. Mature woods may be fenced, or they may not be. Practice varies on different estates, and it may sometimes be completely fortuitous whether they are enclosed or not. The word "unenclosed" is not therefore helpful in this context, as was recognised after full discussion in another place.
I am grateful to the noble Viscount, nevertheless, for having given me this opportunity to explain why we drafted the Bill as we have done. We have used words which we think describe the "open country" to which, prima facie, free public access might reasonably be negotiated. That is all. Within that, each individual access agreement or order will have to be negotiated or considered in the light of the actual circumstances on the land. I hope, therefore, that on reconsideration the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw the Amendment and will feel satisfied that what he has in mind will be accomplished through the procedure which will be followed under the Bill.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I thank the noble Lord for his explanation. Perhaps instead of saying "one ewe to five acres", I ought to have said "one ewe to three acres". But I still think that it is a quite fair definition of "open country". In view of what the noble Lord has said, I shall not pursue the matter any further. Of course, a great deal of this Bill is dependent on the Secretary of State. It is true that we can appeal to the Secretary of State, but he is not a court of law; he is a law unto himself. And, of course, one can be overruled, and one may sometimes be unfairly overruled. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.14 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 10 shall be agreed to?
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: May I ask a question on Clause 10 regarding camping which I asked on Second Reading? Does an access order to open country allow

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camping anywhere in that open country? I do not know whether the noble Lord can answer that question. The other question I should like to ask is regarding the foreshore, the beach. Does an access order to open country where you have a beach allow anyone to draw their boat up on the beach and to keep it there for all time? I do not know whether the noble Lord can tell me that.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Before the noble Lord replies, may I say that this question could have been raised either on this clause or the next clause which deals with the rights of the public. At some stage or another in the course of the Bill, I think it would be extremely helpful if the noble Lord would say what are the rights of the public. What is meant by "open-air recreation"? As this Bill is drafted it gives new rights, and the impression one gets from reading it is that those rights are pretty wide, subject, for example, to subsection (2) of Clause 11, which says:
"Nothing in the provisions of the foregoing subsection shall entitle a person to enter or be on any land, or to do anything thereon, in contravention of any prohibition contained in or having effect under any enactment."
But, subject to enactments, the impression that the Bill gives is that the rights—that is to say, the open air recreation rights—are pretty wide.
I asked the noble Lord on Second Reading, for example, about pony-trekking, and he was good enough to write to me. He told me in his letter that if the agreement or order did not specifically say so then it would not cover pony-trekking,
"or indeed the taking of a single pony on to the land".
I think it would be extremely useful if the noble Lord could make a general statement as to what people may do who may go on the land. I am quite certain that he will say that all these matters are questions of negotiation. But the question in the negotiation is whether you are going to add to the rights already existing, or whether, as the Bill gives the impression, the negotiation is really dealing with restriction of wide rights that are conferred already in the Bill. I think it would be most helpful, to the public as well as
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to your Lordships, if the noble Lord would make that clear.
LORD HUGHES: There have been a number of fears mentioned to me about the camping position. There was the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, in relation to the foreshore. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, raised the more general position as to what exactly are the rights of the public—these new wide rights? I think what he asks for is quite proper; namely, that there should be a general statement of the position. I think, perhaps, it would be better if we were to leave this until a later stage of the proceedings, because there might well be other points of the same kind emerging.
As our time is limited, I think it would be better if there were a comprehensive statement towards the end of the Bill, perhaps even on the Schedule, when I would endeavour to mop up the various points that have emerged during discussion. For instance, I can give an answer right away to one of the camping points, but it would not meet other points. Camping would not be included willy-nilly on access land. It would be subject to the normal arrangements for camping sites et cetera, or by permission of the owner. But that only touches on one aspect. It does not say anything about camping on verges, about which noble Lords have spoken. If it is for the convenience of the Committee I should prefer to leave it for a comprehensive statement on all these matters.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: Surely the majority of the foreshore in Scotland is Crown property, and therefore the public have the right to do what they please with the foreshore up to the high-water mark. Is that not the case? It certainly is where I live.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: It is not so where I live. I have the foreshore rights.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I think one would be a most unhappy camper below high-water mark.
LORD HUGHES: Noble Lords opposite will not expect me to intervene in this Party forum.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Rights of public where access agreement or order in force]:
5.21 p.m.
LORD BURTON LORD BURTON had given Notice of his intention to move, in subsection (1), to leave out from "without" to "access", and insert "without causing damage". The noble Lord said: I wish to move this Amendment in a slightly altered form. The intention is the same, but I regret that my drafting is slightly at fault. The Amendment should read:
Page 9, line 26, leave out from ("without") to ("or")—not "access"—in line 27, and to insert ("causing damage").
Following the remarks on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, we had hoped that the Government would themselves amend this clause. There was considerable discussion on it in another place, and it seems to have been left in a somewhat hazy condition—indeed, it has taken a number of lawyer's explanations to try to disentagle the matter. I hope that the wording I have put in will slightly simplify it.
I think the objects of my Amendments are quite clear. In various clauses in this Bill, and in other Bills recently before the House, the Government have resisted the addition of various bodies and organisations for consultative purposes. For instance, in another place an Amendment seeking that the Countryside Commission should have to consult with the Development Board, and in the Water (Scotland) Bill, that there should be consultation with the purification boards, was turned down on the ground that the mention of any one body in the Bill might, by implication, exclude other bodies. Surely, in the same way, if we are being consistent, the mention of specific types of damage, as here, will imply that other types may be permissible. I am certain that this is not the intention of the Government, and that they would not wish to encourage any damage. Therefore I hope it will be possible for the noble Lord to accept this Amendment, which I now beg to move in the amended form.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 26, leave out from ("without") to ("or") in line 27 and insert ("causing damage").—(Lord Burton.)
LORD HUGHES: As the noble Lord has now amended his Amendment, which
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is perfectly acceptable to the Government—my only objection to it was that it had too many "without" in it—I am happy to accept it.
LORD BURTON: I should like to thank the noble Lord for accepting the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 11, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD FERRIER: On Second Reading I mentioned my feeling that this clause could be improved if the conditions set out in subsection (4) were made more emphatic earlier in the clause. I own so few acres that they are not likely to be the subject of an access order or agreement, and perhaps for that particular reason I am able to approach this in a completely disinterested way. From the point of view of people studying the Bill who are not landowners, Clause 11 could be improved, I think, by making it perfectly clear that in this matter of access there are responsibilities on both parties, and that it is essential, if the Bill is to work smoothly, that people who take advantage of access agreements shall understand that there are specific obligations when they go in the countryside.
The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, referred on Second Reading to the necessity for some sort of education by the Commission so that this point is made clear, and what I am saying now links up in a remote way with what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said at the end of Clause 10; that possibly it would be better if here and there the Bill were more explanatory. I am making these remarks without putting forward any specific Amendment, but I hope that the noble Lord will give his mind to this aspect. As a matter of fact, from his speech on Second Reading I thought he might have moved an Amendment himself and recognised this point, that at some stage in the Bill, preferably early on, it should be made abundantly clear that in this matter of access to open countryside there are responsibilities on either hand.
LORD HUGHES: As the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, has said, on Second Reading I conceded that the point which he raised was one worth looking at, and it

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seemed to me then that it might be necessary to move an Amendment linking Clause 11 with Schedule 2. However, on going into it with my advisers I have come to the conclusion that this is not necessary. We admit that the clause is a long one, and if both the clause and the Schedule seem a cumbersome way of dealing with this matter all we can say is that these are matters of such considerable complexity that it is impossible to do it as simply as perhaps we should all like. There is, however, a link, although in the other direction from that which the noble Lord wishes. But there could not be anything more direct than the link in Schedule 2 itself, the opening words of which are a reference back to Clause 11. Notwithstanding that, I will look at the point again to see whether it is possible to do anything, because I admit that it is preferable that the link should come from the clause, which is read first, rather than that one should have to go through it and refer to the Schedule and then find a reference back to the clause. It may not be possible to do it in the way suggested, but I will certainly look at it again.
While we are on the Motion, That the clause stand part, perhaps I may refer to another item which has been giving concern to a number of noble Lords, and about which the noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret, spoke to me. This was the question of shooting rights and deer forests, grouse moors and the like. He raised the question of the importance of these shooting rights, and of our examining how they will fit in with access arrangements under the Bill. The Landowners' Federation have had shooting rights in mind in discussions they have had with my Department officials and my honourable friend the Minister of State, both before and during the course of the Bill through Parliament. We are satisfied that the clause as drafted, and in particular subsection (3), will enable public access and shooting, whether of game or deer, to be dovetailed together.
Subsection (3) provides for an access agreement or order to include restrictions on access both as to time and to place. In other words, it can be agreed between the parties to the agreement that a grouse beat may be closed on the days when shooting is planned, and similarly
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with a hill when stalking is planned or is in progress. People who use the countryside regularly for hill walking are already accustomed to respect the life and business of the countryside, and they do ask keepers and respect their advice as to where they may or may not walk on any particular day without disturbing the shooting. There are, of course, the odd "black sheep" in the flock. But we hope that walking arrangements will be able to control, or at least deter, the worst excesses.
The noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret, will know that access arrangements work satisfactorily in grouse moors in the Peak District and landowners there have taken the initiative in seeking access agreements; and although the problems are different, I am confident that access arrangements could be made just asacceptably to deer forests. I know that the Red Deer Commission are well disposed to the Bill, and we have undertaken that the Secretary of State will consult them before he approves at least the initial access agreements affecting land carrying deer. I hope that that statement on this particular access will prove helpful to noble Lords who have been genuinely interested and concerned about this problem.
THE EARL OF CROMARTIE: Before the noble Lord sits down, would he now say something about the question of camps—tents as opposed to caravans—which I mentioned earlier?
LORD HUGHES: I should prefer to leave that until the end. I referred to this point only because it arose particularly on Clause 11, and that was thought to be the proper place on which to make a statement on this particular matter.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I welcome what the noble Lord has just said, and I know that in the Peak District the arrangements for grouse shooting have worked most satisfactorily. What worries me a little is the difference between grouse shooting and stalking. In stalking a small party goes out on the same piece of ground every day, except Sundays, for six weeks—and even on the days when it does not go out on the same ground it is essential that the deer should not be disturbed on those days. It seems to me that in places where access is extremely popular this may raise difficulties. I fully appreciate that it will

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not raise any greater difficulties than are liable to occur at the moment. However, I think that this is a problem to which we must direct our thoughts before we can be entirely satisfied that Clause 11 is properly drawn up.
One further point is that during the lambing season much the same considerations apply. One does not want people, particularly people with dogs, even if they are under control, going among the ewes during the lambing season. But, unlike the position with grouse shooting, it is no good telling people that they may not go there for a couple of days each week. The prohibition must be for six weeks to two months solid. This may be very hard on the public who wish to take advantage of access agreements during the lambing season or the stalking season. Luckily, these two seasons do not occur at a time of peak popularity for access to the countryside. None the less, there are some people who take their holidays at those times of year and who will wish to take advantage of access during those periods. I should like to know what arrangements are going to be made to warn people about where they can and cannot go during those two particular periods, and whether the Government have thought about this problem. The stalking problem virtually does not arise in England, and although the lambing problem does arise, I believe that in some parts of the Peak District it has not been so satisfactorily solved as the grouse shooting problem.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I should like to ask the noble Lord a question in regard to what he has said about access orders in relation to hill land where there is no access order, and where one has the public wandering around the hills. Does this now mean that the authorities will make an order during the shooting and stalking season that for a certain period the public will not be allowed on that area? What I am getting at is that if an area has not an access order upon it but is still a very valuable game area from the point of view of revenue, will the public be debarred from straying all over that area at the height of the game season?
LORD HUGHES: Obviously, if no access order is made, the position remains exactly as it is at present. We do not
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need to issue a statement saying that the law remains unchanged where there is no access order.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: The position at present is highly unsatisfactory. I have a deer forest, and at times there are hundreds, and perhaps even thousands, of people wandering all over it in the stalking season. The point is that under the present situation I cannot rent a large part of this forest, and the law at present is, as I say, highly unsatisfactory.
LORD HUGHES: I am afraid we are not making very good progress at this stage. Surely this is the best indication that the noble Lord should seek to make access agreements in due course and get the benefits which flow from them.
LORD BURTON: I welcome the statement made by the noble Lord. I should like the Government to bear in mind that the whole population of various glens depend almost entirely on sporting facilities, and the whole position of rural areas of Scotland could be altered if this were not brought in. Therefore I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his statement.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Commission to consult with local planning authorities on access requirements of their areas]:
5.37 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved, in subsection (1), after "authorities" to insert:
"and with such persons as appear to the Commission to be representative of the owners and occupiers of land in their areas".
The noble Baroness said: This clause provides for consultation between the Commission and local planning authorities on access requirements for the areas, but no express provision is made for consultation with the owners and occupiers as well as with local planning authorities. This Amendment proposes that the Commission should also consult from time to time with such persons as appear to them to be representative of the owners and occupiers of the land in their areas.
Clearly, the owners and occupiers will have something to contribute in putting

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forward the views of what access requirements already exist in their areas and what further requirements may be needed. The views of the local planning authority and the owners and occupiers may differ within any given area. It is important that the Commission should receive a balanced picture on the access facilities and future requirements of access within an area. Some local planning authorities are not always very practical in their approach. It is important that the Commission, in the exercise of their functions, should have the benefit of views and advice from owners and occupiers of land in question, and this Amendment is drafted in a form for which there is precedent in other legislation. Therefore, I very much hope the noble Lord will be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 10, after ("authorities") insert the said words.—(Baroness Elliot of Harwod.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: One reason—
LORD HUGHES: If the noble Earl would permit me to continue, I think I can probably satisfy him. If not, he can come back on the matter. Amendments to accomplish this purpose were moved in another place, both in Committee and on Report stage, and the Government were unable to accept them, although there was sympathy with the point of view expressed. The present Amendment is a great improvement on those which were moved in another place, and the Government are prepared to accept it in principle. However, we cannot accept all that is in it. There is one reservation which we must make, and it refers to the use of the word "persons". We feel that this is too wide. Used in the legal sense "persons" could include, as well as individuals, corporate bodies like the Landowners' Federation and the National Farmers' Union; but these would clearly be the right persons to consult rather than the individuals, and we think that the word "bodies" would be preferable. This would be easier for the Commission. It would take them out of the invidious position of having to decide whether any individuals were representative of the owners and occupiers of the land. Having said that, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the Amendment now, and I undertake at the next stage to submit,
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on behalf of the Government, an Amendment which we think will give effect to what she wishes, and in a form of words which does not affront the draftsman.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I should like to thank the noble Lord for what he has said. Clearly, the changes which he wants to make in the Amendment are legally desirable, and it would greatly facilitate the drawing up of these agreements if this could be done. The noble Lord referred to the Landowners' Federation which has just established new regional councils, and these would obviously be suitable bodies to consult before any steps are taken and an access order is made. In view of what the noble Lord has said, I am sure that my noble friend will wish to withdraw this Amendment.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I thank the noble Lord very much for his answer, and I am sure he will move a redrafted Amendment. I have great pleasure in asking leave to withdraw my Amendment.
LORD SOMERS: Before my noble friend withdraws her Amendment, may I ask the noble Lord whether in Parliamentary use the word "bodies" includes an individual body?
LORD HUGHES: If I were to go on the answer which I gave previously to the noble Baroness, that the greater includes the less, then I should think the answer must be, "Yes". But I would hope that by the use of the word "bodies" we do not eliminate the individual. However, I shall give this undertaking, that having objected to a particular use of the word by the noble Baroness as imposing too great a burden on the Commission, we shall make certain that by October we do not fall into another pitfall of the same kind ourselves.
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask the noble Lord whether in talking about "bodies" he will have in mind the need to consult at as low a level as possible; in particular with the local branches of the National Farmers' Union, which would appear to be appropriate representative bodies in the area?
LORD HUGHES: I think that in this matter we would of course follow the usual practice. In some cases I think the consultation would be at national level,

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while there may well be other cases where the appropriate thing to do, as the noble Lord has suggested, would be to have it at local level.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Access agreements]:
5.43 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "or variation". The noble Lord said: This is a rather technical Amendment. The clause provides in subsection (3) that:
"An access agreement may be made either irrevocably or subject to such provisions for revocation or variation as may be specified in the agreement".
I take that to mean that if it is made irrevocably it cannot be altered at all, except in the circumstances of Clause 27(3) which deals with provisions as to danger areas.
Circumstances change, and it is not clear to me why, even if an access agreement is expressed to be irrevocable, it should not also be made subject to variation, and (if I may speak to Amendments Nos. 16 and 17 together) in Amendment No. 17 I indicate a way in which it could be varied. Obviously, where you have agreement it should only be varied with agreement. If somebody makes a proposal for a variation and the other party does not agree, it may be desirable to have an arbiter or to refer the matter to the Secretary of State. But plainly it would not be right for the Secretary of State or the arbiter to alter the terms of the agreement without, at any rate, the consent of the proposer of the variation. That is the purpose of these two Amendments. I would only add that it is not entirely clear to me why, if an access agreement can be revocable, it cannot also be made for a term of years. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 37, leave out ("or variation").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: I must confess that it was not completely clear to us what the noble Lord had in mind in proposing these two Amendments, and what he has indicated goes a little beyond the possibilities
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which we had considered. In asking him to withdraw—
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I make it clear that my last observation was not covered by the Amendment. That was purely an observation about the term of years.
LORD HUGHES: I was referring to the noble Lord's desire to have an irrevocable agreement subject to variation. We had not thought that that was what he had in mind. The Bill as drafted provides, as one would expect for any agreement in the sense in which that term is normally understood, that the agreement may itself provide for its variation; and to include the provision now suggested would, in my view, be contrary to the spirit in which agreements are normally made and expected to be kept. Looking at it from the point of view of an agreement which does include within itself provision for variation, if we accepted the Amendment we should be taking away from the value of the agreement which had been arrived at. The Amendment would create the position that if one party to the agreement wished to vary it, he could appeal to the Secretary of State and, if he convinced the Secretary of State that it should be varied, the initial agreement could be set aside.
As the Bill stands at the present time, the agreement could only be varied within its own terms, and that would imply the consent of both parties. Yet the noble Lord's Amendment envisages the possibility of the agreement being varied against the will of one of the parties. We think that it is unnecessary to do this. Having entered into an agreement to which both sides are parties, and if that agreement provides that it may be varied by the consent of both parties, we do not think that it is necessary to go beyond that.
However, looking at it from the other side, that there might be provision for variation of an irrevocable agreement to take account of changed circumstances, that is a consideration with which my answer does not deal. I should like to look at the matter from that point of view, to find out whether or not it is possible or desirable to make provision, not for the withdrawal of an irrevocable agreement, but for its variation to take account

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of possible changes in circumstances. If the noble Lord cares to withdraw the Amendment I shall get in touch with him well before the next stage, either with the suggestion of a Government Amendment or the reasons why we do not wish to make that provision. He will then, of course, be free, if he feels it necessary, to take further action on Report stage.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Perhaps I expressed the purpose of my Amendment badly, but I do not think I meant to go any further than he has indicated. Of course, if an agreement is irrevocable it is there to stay. What I had in mind was the distinction in the Amendment between irrevocable agreements, the terms of which cannot apparently be varied in any way, and revocable agreements and variable agreements. There is that distinction. I thought that, whether an agreement was irrevocable or revocable, it should be capable of variation in changed circumstances. That is all I had in mind, and I am grateful to the noble Lord. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.50 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am rather out of my depth on this particular Amendment, and I had hoped that perhaps some of the noble and learned Lords might be here at this point to help me out. But I am advised that it is not normal for a liferenter to be able to make agreements without the consent of the trustees. The next subsection deals with trustees; and it seems to me that the right people to make agreements of this kind in regard to land subject to a liferenter's interests are the trustees, and not the life-renter. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 39, leave out ("the liferenter or").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: Although my swimming abilities in this direction are not particularly great, I may be able to rescue the noble Lord from the deep water in which he finds himself. The point of this Amendment was discussed at considerable length in another place, and it is rather interesting that a scion of this House, the Earl of Dalkeith, was fully in support of the Government's view. It is also interesting that, as my honourable
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friend the Minister of State pointed out, we have not been pressed by the Scottish Landowners' Federation on the point, which we think would certainly have been the case if they thought it was a matter of real significance. I should like to go on, however, to explain the position as we see it.
Where there is a liferenter, it will normally be the case that he will be a party, for his interest, to any agreement made between the trustees and the local planning authority. However, cases will occasionally crop up where the trustees, because of some doubt about their powers or because they think it in the best interests of their trust, cannot see their way to enter into an agreement, even though as individuals they would each be prepared to do so had their interest been a personal one. In these rare cases it seems wrong to force the local planning authority to make an order. Perhaps the trustees would even feel obliged to object, with a view to a possible early sale of the estate. But the liferenter cannot give away a better right than he has, and could bind the land only for the period of his interest, which would cease at his death. Therefore I can see no valid reason why the liferenter should not be enabled (as his equivalent in England is) to grant access by agreement to the land he enjoys for the period of his interest. Accordingly, I hope the noble Lord will not press this Amendment. And because of what I have said, the Government make the point, of course, that the next Amendment is not necessary.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Before my noble friend withdraws this Amendment, as I expect he will, may I say that, while I agree that the next Amendment is probably not necessary, it would make it much easier for people reading this Bill to understand the restriction on the powers of the liferenter or the heir of entail. I was wondering, therefore, whether it would be possible for the noble Lord to accept it in the interests of making it possible for anyone who happens to have to read this Bill, and who is not a lawyer, to understand it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged to my noble friend. In order to get the discussion in order, may I first beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 18? Then, in order to enable the noble

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Lord to reply to my noble friend, I shall move Amendment No. 19.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I beg to move Amendment No. 19.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 41, at end insert ("for a period not exceeding the period of his interest in the land.").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: This, as the noble Lord has already said, is deep water, but may I try to get the position quite clear? When the noble Lord says he wishes the position to be made clear, does he mean by the retention of the words sought to be omitted by the last Amendment or by the insertion of the words set out in the Amendment we are now discussing?
LORD DRUMALBYN: If I might make it clear, we have now agreed not to leave out the words set out in the previous Amendment, and are considering what application the words in the present Amendment would have to a life-renter or an heir of entail.
LORD HUGHES: What I should have said was that I am not clear what the noble Duke wishes to make clear.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I was hoping the noble Lord would agree to accept the words in this Amendment, because, although I am quite prepared to accept that they probably are not necessary legally, I think that the non-lawyer, reading through this Bill, would find it easier to understand that there was this particular limitation on the heir of entail or the liferenter if these words were inserted.
LORD HUGHES: I think it is a rather dangerous principle to start putting words into a Bill merely to make a legal point like this as clear as may be to the person who is not legally minded. I cannot accept this Amendment, because the information I have is that there is no doubt at all in law that the liferenter cannot give a greater right than he has, and that therefore the access agreement can be made only for the period of his interest.
LORD DRUMALBYN: For my part, I am quite satisfied with that. I think one would not make an agreement of this type without consulting one's lawyer, and he
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would know the answer. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 13 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: May I, very briefly, ask the noble Lord one question? Is Clause 13, which deals with the power to make access agreements, governed by Clause 10, which defines "open country", or is it governed by Clause 2, which defines "the countryside"? Because I think there definitely will be occasions when it will be advantageous for all parties to be able to make access agreements—and I emphasise access agreements—but not access orders over land which does not come within the definition of "open country". I am thinking particularly of places where fishermen would like access to the banks of a river, or along the banks of a river, or something like that. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will be able to assure me that Clause 13 is governed by Clause 2 and not by Clause 10, and that Clause 14, "Access orders", is governed by Clause 10 and not by Clause 2.
LORD HUGHES: Would the noble Duke like to wait until I make a general statement later on, by which time I shall know the answer?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Certainly.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Clause 14 [Access orders]:
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"( ) Before submitting an access order to the Secretary of State a local planning authority shall, after consultation with the owners and occupiers of the land which it is proposed should be included in the order, ascertain what public paths or rights of way are already available to the public. A report of such facilities shall be attached to the application to the Secretary of State for an access order. If the Secretary of State is satisfied after any objections to the proposed access order have been considered at a local enquiry and hearing in accordance with Section 15(4) of this Act that public paths or rights of way are adequate within any part of the land comprised within the said access order he shall not confirm the access order in so far as it relates to any such part of the said land."
The noble Baroness said: We have already been discussing the problems arising out of Clause 10, and this Amendment refers to this clause. There have been declarations by the Government that access will normally be by means of an access agreement rather than by an access order. However, there are bound to be difficult cases where agreement cannot be reached, however much good will there is on the part of the owner and the local planning authority, who will be the parties to the negotiations. We do not think it right that where the public already have adequate rights of access, by means of public paths or rights of way, the Secretary of State should have the power to issue an order in respect of any such land.
The purpose of this Amendment is therefore to write into the Bill safeguards which would preclude the Secretary of State from confirming an access order in respect of any land if he was satisfied, after a public local inquiry, or possibly a hearing, that existing facilities were adequate. We do not feel that an Amendment on these lines would be detrimental in any way to the thinking and the objects behind Part II of the Bill. It does, however, place an emphasis on making use of existing facilities, whether under an access agreement or an order. It also attempts to place emphasis on the desirability of public paths and rights of way in the case of inbye and arable land through which the public must pass when going on to hill and rough grazings. The Amendment is not seeking to narrow the definition of "open country," but merely to ensure that where facilities are adequate an order shall not be confirmed. It seems sensible, therefore, to write this into the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 14, after "agreements" insert the said subsection.—(Baroness Elliot of Harwood.)
LORD HUGHES: This Amendment is useful in that it directs our attention to the kind of processes through which a local planning authority will have to go before making an access order. The Secretary of State will also take this kind of consideration into account before he approves an order. The Government accept that access arrangements will often
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involve a combination of a public path agreement or agreements with the access agreement itself. A public path could frequently be the best way of getting access through inbye land to the rougher land higher up the hill. This is the kind of question which would be naturally the subject of negotiation and examination when an access agreement or order was in contemplation. To that extent we agree with the spirit of the Amendment. But we do not think the Amendment is necessary. The Secretary of State will look at these matters in any case.
Furthermore, the Amendment appears to impose on the local authority a duty which may be unnecessary. The basic idea of free access is access to roam the hills away from such paths as there may be. No matter how many paths there may be in an access area, they could never satisfy this freedom to roam; and, to that extent, a detailed investigation of all rights of way in the area would be an unnecessary and time-consuming exercise. For these reasons I hope the noble Baroness will not press the Amendment.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: If the noble Lord assures me that these matters will be considered and are under consideration, I shall withdraw the Amendment. But it seems to me that where you have doubts, where there may be difficulties, it would be simpler to lay down some kind of arrangement which would make it easier. However, if the noble Lord thinks it unnecessary and that it is already in the Bill, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 14 agreed to.
Clauses 15 and 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 [Provisions for securing safe and sufficient access]:
6.3 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: The purpose of this Amendment is to make certain that access is not merely on to the whole of the land, but on to each part of the land. What I have in mind is the access from one part of the land to another; and not just access on to the land itself. It is important in this context because here we are concerned with safety and the adequacy of access. If you are allowed to go on to the land, presumably, once

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on it (subject to what is contained in the agreement, and the restrictions and exceptions) you can go where you like on it. In particular, it may be necessary to cross rivers. There may be bridges giving access from one part of the land to another. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will see his way to allowing these words to be added, so as to enable anyone to go from one part of the land to another, subject to such restrictions as may be agreed upon or allowed. This is the sole point of the Amendment. It may be it is not necessary because access to the land may include access to any part of the land. But it is in order to get the noble Lord to state whether that is so that I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 12, at end insert ("and the expression 'means of access to the land' includes means of access to any part of the land other than excepted land.").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: We had assumed that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was seeking information by this Amendment, and I am glad that is the case, because I cannot accept the Amendment for two reasons. The first is because, as he anticipated, in part it is unnecessary; and the second is because, in part, it is too restrictive. I confirm that the definition of "means of access", which the Amendment proposes to alter, already applies to any part of the land; so the first part of the Amendment is unnecessary. Secondly, an access agreement, though not an access order, can provide for access to excepted land. This is made clear by the proviso to Clause 11(1). If an agreement did so provide, it would obviously be sensible that the local authority should have power to provide means of access to the excepted land. If this is so, the inclusion of the last four words would be unduly restrictive. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord, having got the information he wished on the first part—and I am certain he does not want to be restrictive in these last four words—will find it possible to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: The intention was not to be restrictive. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 17 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: May I ask just two questions? First, with regard to line 8, page 17:
"the maintenance of any such means of access".
Here, again, I am concerned with bridges in particular. I am well aware how often these bridges are washed away. I am not certain whether "maintenance" includes restoration or rebuilding where a bridge is entirely washed away. If it is no longer there, you cannot maintain it; it has to be replaced. That is the first point. The second point is in line 31. This part allows for the authority to contribute to a part of the cost as may be specified in the agreement. Does "part" include proportion; or does it allow only a specified sum of, say, an ascertained estimate to be contributed. I think it should be possible to contribute a proportion of the cost.
LORD HUGHES: On the first point, I think I must agree with the noble Lord that if a bridge were washed away and had to be replaced this would not be covered by "maintenance" in the ordinary way as we understand it. On the second point, he referred to the words "such part of that cost" in line 31. If we go back to the words in line 28:
"where it is agreed that it shall be carried out otherwise than by the authority may defray the cost of the carrying out thereof, or may contribute such part of that cost as may be specified in the agreement".
As this really contemplates that they may cover the whole or part of the cost, it seems that there is no restriction at all on the way in which this can be done. Obviously, therefore, it may be proportionate, if that is what is wanted.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19 [Suspension of public access to avoid risk of fire.]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after "thereon", to insert
"or that members of the public are likely to be exposed to undue personal risk".
The noble Duke said: Clause 19 gives the Secretary of State power to suspend

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access in certain conditions of weather owing to the danger of fire. I should like to extend this power so that the Secretary of State could suspend access in certain conditions of weather but for other reasons. These are that people are becoming increasingly keen on climbing and mountaineering and that during the winter they often go up inadequately dressed and, more important, inadequately shod. They often get caught by blizzards and then a large number of people have to spend a great deal of time and money searching for them. On occasion they do not find them and they die of exposure on the hills. When the access agreements come into general use this may be something which will happen with increasing frequency. People will say, "This ground must be all right; there is an access agreement applying to the area. It must be safe for us to go up." They will go up and accidents of this kind will become more frequent.
Even more important, there are certain places where avalanches are not unknown in Scotland under certain conditions. These conditions may frequently be forecast, and I should have thought there was a good case for giving the Secretary of State power to close access agreements over those areas when such weather conditions were likely to occur. I feel that in the interests of public safety it is desirable for some provision like this to be written into the Bill. Were the Amendment to be accepted, as I hope it will be, I think that the title of the clause would have to be altered to, "Suspension of public access in times of unusual weather conditions"—or something like that. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 18, at end insert the said words.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
6.12 p.m.
LORD HUGHES: I had envisaged that the noble Duke might have in mind such things as landslides or avalanches. Though he did not mention landslides, no doubt he had them in mind in view of his reference to avalanches. I must admit I had not contemplated that he had in mind the possibility of some control over or inspection of the type of clothing and footwear of the people going on the land. If we were to accept that responsibility, there would be little danger of
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any unemployment in the Highlands, as we should need almost every available man in order to carry it out; though I do not think it would be a productive form of employment. I think I must accept that people will gradually become educated into the proper way of doing things. The fact that we are also going to make access to the water more freely available does not imply that we are saying to everyone who cannot swim, "We are giving you access to the water and you can proceed to walk on it, although you cannot swim in it".
We believe that fire risk is a subject which may be properly dealt with in the clause; but where the risks to which the noble Duke refers are substantial the proper course would be to consider whether it is desirable that access agreements should be made at all. Clause 27(1), to which I would direct the attention of the noble Duke, is relevant. If it is considered that the risk is acceptable, then the powers of Clause 27(4) are available for the local authority to take steps to warn the public of the danger. We do not think this a matter which can be satisfactorily dealt with under Clause 19. I have no doubt that if a significant natural hazard arose or seemed imminent, as distinct from the one which was there permanently, the police and the local and central Government officials in the area would, without the need for any statutory reminder, take all possible steps to warn and protect the public. This would be on a much wider basis than merely in connection with access land. For these reasons I do not think it is either necessary or desirable to accept the Amendment. I do not think it would be likely to be of help in the circumstances which the noble Duke has in mind.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, did not wish to misrepresent me. I never intended to suggest that there should be a sort of kit inspection before every climber set off up the hill. But I am worried by the fact that there are many places which, although providing excellent climbing for nine months of the year, may become extremely dangerous in December, January and February. I should have thought it was worth writing something like this into the Bill. I am sure that the

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psychological effect of an access agreement will be to make people think that access is that much safer at all times of the year. They will visualise that there will be a rescue hut in which they may take refuge if they are caught in a storm, though of course in many cases there will not be. I have no wish to press this matter on the noble Lord. If he is satisfied that his arrangements for warning the public about the dangers are enough, well and good. But I should like him to think further about this point, because I think it is a more difficult problem than many people realise. The statistics relating to climbers and similar people lost in the winter and during storms show that the numbers are growing every year. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I beg to move this Amendment to leave out "the land" and to insert "such parts of the land and". The clause would then read that the Secretary of State
"may direct that section 11(1) above shall not have effect in relation to such parts of the land and during such period as may be specified in the direction".
I think that the point is quite clear. It seems rather absurd that even in the driest of times, because there is one wood which may be liable to be set ablaze, a whole vast mountain range should be denied to the public. Yet "the land" presumably can mean only land which is subject to the access agreement. There is no provision here for discriminating between one part of the land and another, and it seems to me sensible to deny access to certain parts of the land in certain circumstances but to allow access to other parts. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 20, leave out ("the land") and insert ("such parts of the land and").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: We do not think this Amendment is necessary. The first part of the clause refers to access to the land, then there are some words, and it goes on to say, "or any part thereof", and directions by the Secretary of State for Scotland can be limited to any part likely to be at risk. Having said that, may I say that if on looking at the clause again the noble Lord is not satisfied that his
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point is completely covered, I do not think any harm would be done by adding the words—other than, perhaps, the ultimate outrage to the noble Lord's own predisposition not to have unnecessary words in a Bill. If he is satisfied that these words are completely necessary, I would not dissent from adding them.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am bound to say that I thought they were necessary, and if the noble Lord is willing to add them, I shall be glad.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 19, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I was wondering how the mechanics of this clause would work. Will the information be broadcast over the radio? Obviously it will be something on which a decision will have to be taken very quickly. As I am sure that anyone who lives there will know, the moor dries up with remarkable rapidity at certain times of the year. The strength of the wind is one factor that has a big effect on fire danger. If there is virtually no wind, the risk is not very great, but if a half-gale is blowing, the risk is considerable. I should like to know, therefore, how the Secretary of State is to be told that the fire risk in a certain area is approaching the danger level and, when he agrees to suspend an access order, how the public are to be informed of that fact.
LORD BURTON: How are the public to know when the restrictions are lifted; and who is to say when restrictions are to be put on or lifted?
LORD HUGHES: It is made clear in the clause, which starts by saying, "If the Secretary of State is satisfied", that the decision is the Secretary of State's. But, of course, my right honourable friend is not going careering round the country himself. A decision will be taken on behalf of the Secretary of State, possibly through local Forestry Commission officials, and it will be made known by whatever means possible. In conditions of sufficient gravity, we should use all possible means, including wireless and television, as well as police and officials on the spot.

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There will not be the same urgency about bringing restrictions to an end, but we should give adequate publicity to the fact that restrictions were lifted. Those who wanted to get on would make inquiries as to whether they could do so, and if they had not previously read the news, or heard it on the radio, they would be told that the restrictions had been lifted. In the first case, we appreciate that getting information over quickly might well be of prime importance and we should therefore take all necessary means to do so.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I think that what my noble friend Lord Burton is asking is whether the phrase "during such period" includes an indefinite period—for example, until further notice. If that were the case, it would be the opposite way round and notice would have to be given that access was reopened.
LORD HUGHES: We should have to give notice that restrictions were at an end, but in the sort of emergency envisaged here we should not have an order for so many hours, days or weeks. The duration of the restrictions would depend entirely on how long the emergency conditions persisted. They might be brought to an end rapidly by a change in the weather. On the other hand, a continuation of the weather conditions which had created the risk might persist for weeks on end. Obviously, there cannot be any definite period. I am reminded of a circumstances at the beginning of the war, when an official (who must be nameless) stated that the town council had entered into an agreement with the Postmaster General for a telephone service to warden posts for a period of three years, this being the official period for the duration of the war.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 [Compensation to be assessed with regard to effect of first five years of access]:
On Question, Whether Clause 21 shall stand part of the Bill?
6.24 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: We come here to the question of compensation where an
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order is made. I said on Second Reading that it did not seem clear why a person on whom an access order is served should have to wait for five years before compensation is claimable or payable. Claims for damage should be made as they arise, otherwise it is difficult, apart from anything else, for damage to be assessed. There are two separate types of claim here. One is a general claim for compensation for depreciation and the other a claim for particular damage. I raised the question of claims for the reimbursement of insurance premiums, and the noble Lord was good enough to say that they would be recovered. But why should anyone have to wait five years for their recovery?
I am not sure how this clause fits in with the next clause. Clause 21 says that compensation shall not be claimed for five years and Clause 22 says that application for compensation must be made not less than three months after the date of the order's coming into operation. These seem contradictory. Just as the party having to pay compensation may not know by experience what should be paid, so the party likely to claim compensation may not know by experience whether or not it is necessary to claim. I do not see how these two provisions dovetail. It seems unreasonable to expect anyone to put in a general, omnibus claim, covering all possibilities, and I doubt whether that would be permissible under the regulations to be prescribed. I hope that the noble Lord will look at these clauses again.
LORD HUGHES: I cannot say why the period of five years was chosen. Obviously some period must elapse because of the difficulty of assessing compensation, and the Government have decided that five years is a reasonable period.
Clause 21 only requires notice to be given. The final claim comes after a five-year period. There is provision for interim payments in Clause 23(1).
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am bound to say that this is the least satisfactory of the explanations the noble Lord has given so far. Perhaps we can look at this at a later stage, because, while it is true that Clause 23 makes possible payment on account, the whole concept of these clauses should be looked at to get a more reasonable provision. I submit

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that we should have a clear distinction between claims for damage or depreciation, or loss which can clearly be established at an early stage, and those which can be established only by experience. I hope that it will be possible to provide for this.
LORD HUGHES: I will look at this matter again. Perhaps it would be best if I were to write the noble Lord within a short period.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 [Claims for compensation and interest]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "duly" and insert "in the prescribed form". The noble Lord said: This is a matter to which I had intended to refer earlier, but I am afraid I let the clause go by. However, it arises here again. The word "duly" is used, and I feel that when this word is used it would be quite possible for a planning authority, or anyone else on whom a claim was made, to refuse to accept the claim on the ground that in the opinion of the authority it was not "duly" made. I think that, as we have provision for regulations to be prescribed, for example, in subsection (2), so in subsection (1) it would be better to use the words "in the prescribed form", and allow the Secretary of State to prescribe in this case, as in others. The other case where the word "duly" is used, to which I meant to refer, is in Clause 15. Perhaps, as we have now passed this clause I can write to the noble Lord about it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 6, leave out ("duly") and insert ("in the prescribed form").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD HUGHES: The noble Lord has himself referred to subsection (2), which provides that claims for compensation shall be made in accordance with the regulations made by the Secretary of State. It is because subsection (2) lays this down that the word "duly" appears in line 6. It is there as a pointer to subsection (2). This is the usual form in which it is done. Having laid down in the clause that regulations may be prescribed, it is not necessary to use this form of words on both occasions. This
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accords with the noble Lord's own view, that you ought not to use four words if one will serve the purpose.
LORD DRUMALBYN: If this is well precedented, I am glad to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 22 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I should like to ask the noble Lord one question. When a claim is made under subsection (3) of this clause, I can see that if the land is in the same ownership as it was when the agreement or order was entered into no difficulty will arise, or should not arise. But in the event of the land having been sold, or the ownership having been transferred, I should think it might be possible that the new owner would not realise exactly when he had to claim—that is, the period not less than three months after the five years. Would the local planning authority be obliged to send the new owner a reminder that he was due to make a claim if, towards the end of that time, they had not received a claim from him or would it be up to the new owner? Or would there be some way, if a new owner forgot to make his claim, whereby the time could be extended?
LORD HUGHES: It seems to me that this is probably a point on which the new owner's legal adviser would keep him right. But it may not be so, and if the noble Duke will permit me, I will have a look at the point and see whether it is necessary for anything to be done.
LORD BURTON: If the insurance money is to be capitalised, may we have an assurance that the interest on the capital, some of which, presumably, would be set aside each year for the insurance premium, would not be taxed?
LORD HUGHES: No.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23 agreed to.
6.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE THE EARL OF DUNDEE moved, after Clause 23, to insert the following new clause:
Saving in respect of capital gains tax and betterment levy
". It is hereby declared that where in respect of any land an access agreement or an

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access order is made in accordance with this Part of this Act the making of such agreement or order as the case may be shall not—

(a) for the purposes of the enactments relating to the capital gains tax be a disposal of an asset; or

(b) for the purposes of the Land Commission Act 1967 be a chargeable act or event."

The noble Earl said: This proposed new clause would provide that an access agreement or access order should not be a chargeable act for the purposes of capital gains tax, or a chargeable event for the purpose of betterment levy. It would obviously, I think, facilitate the completion of these agreements, and would also save our heavily overworked Inland Revenue officials from a good deal of fruitless and unnecessary investigation. The point was fairly fully discussed in Committee in another place, and the Government said that they would look into it. But everybody seems to have forgotten about it on Report. Perhaps we can remember something now. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 23, insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
LORD HUGHES: This new clause proposes that the making of an access agreement or order in respect of any land is not to be treated as a disposal for capital gains tax purposes or as a chargeable act or event for betterment levy purposes. I shall deal, first of all, with the capital gains tax aspect. Under the existing law, the making of an access order constitutes a part disposal of the land in respect of which it is made; an access agreement would not constitute a disposal unless the consideration included a capital sum as a premium. Broadly speaking, except where the land in respect of which the agreement or order is made has some "development value", the gain on the disposal is measured as the difference between the compensation received and an apportioned part of the cost of the entire land in respect of some or all of which the order has been made. So much of this gain as is referable to the period from April 6, 1965 (when capital gains tax took effect) to the date when the compensation is received would then be liable to tax. The position in cases where the land has some development value is more complicated, but such cases are, I am advised,
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likely to be relatively rare—so rare, indeed, that it has not been thought necessary to specify countryside access compensation payable under the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, which the Bill follows very closely in this respect, in the Case F regulations made under the Land Commission Act.
There are specific provisions in the Finance Act 1965 that make the receipt of compensation of any sort a disposal for capital gains tax purposes. Once the principle that all such compensation has to be brought into account was breached, there would be a grave risk that all forms of compulsory acquisition, or disposals by voluntary agreement in cases where compulsory powers could be used, would, in the long run, be excluded from the tax charge. A proposal that gains should not be chargeable when they accrue in consequence of acquisition by authorities possessing compulsory powers (or by sale by agreement to such authorities) was debated on May 27 during the 1965 Finance Bill proceedings, but was resisted [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, cols. 914–918; 27/5/65] by the Government on the grounds that the capital gains tax proceeded on the principle that liability to it should not be limited to voluntary disposal of property; thus, for example, liability arises on death. It followed that if there was to be liability not limited to voluntary disposal of property, liability must arise where a capital gain arose from a compulsory acquisition.
As noble Lords are aware, it would be contrary to custom to make amendments to the tax code in legislation other than the Finance Bill. Moreover, the constitutional custom is, of course, that amendments to taxation law emanate from another place, so that we may expect that, apart from the merits of the matter, the present clause, if inserted into the Bill here, will be rejected by the other place as a derogation of their privilege.
I turn now to the question of betterment levy. The general principle underlying the charging of betterment levy is that levy becomes payable where development value is being realised. But the compensation provided for under Part II of the Countryside Bill is compensation for the depreciation of the value of an existing interest, or for damage resulting from the disturbance of the enjoyment of land in its existing state.

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As long as the compensation takes this form, therefore, the Government agree that its payment should not be made a chargeable event.
We do not agree, however, that the proposed Amendment should be made. In the first place, it is unnecessary. There is nothing in the Land Commission Act, or the regulations made under it, that would make this compensation subject to betterment levy. Secondly, and even more important, the Amendment would set an undesirable precedent and would cast doubt on the position of other forms of compensation the payment of which has not been made a chargeable event but about which there is no comparable statutory declaration. Thirdly, a non-fiscal measure like the Countryside Bill is no place for legislation purporting to regulate fiscal matters. If any declaration of this kind were thought desirable it should be in fiscal legislation.
I hope it will be felt of advantage that this statement should appear in the Record, because I have no doubt that noble Lords will wish to study in writing what I am saying. It perhaps may be a little clearer than attempting to listen to a long statement of this kind. Having said that, I hope the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw the Amendment so that he may have the opportunity, at more leisure, of studying what I have said; and if he still feels he has doubts in the matter, and wishes to pursue it further, perhaps he will get in touch with me well before the next stage of the Bill.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am very glad to hear that there will be some advantage in publishing this rather long and mystifying statement—as all financial law is—in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Does it mean—this is all I want to ask—that when an agreement or an access order is made, and if the owner does not receive any cash through selling anything, he will not be subject thereby to capital gains tax or betterment levy? I take it that it does mean that.
LORD HUGHES: The statement means what it says, and I would invite the noble Earl to read it in due course. If he is not clear on reading it as to what it means, I have already invited him to write me about it.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I had hoped that the noble Lord himself would be sufficiently clear about it to tell me whether the result of all this would mean that a betterment levy or capital gains tax was actually payable in these circumstances.
LORD HUGHES: Whether I am clear about it or not, I have sufficient respect for the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to tread too heavily in his field of territory.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: In the hope that some day the Government may be able to understand their own statements, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 [Acquisition by local planning authorities of land for public access]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I think that the next Amendment, No. 26, and Amendment No. 27 are on exactly the same point, and I strongly suspect that No. 27 is in a preferable form. Therefore, I will not move No. 26.
LORD HUGHES: Your Lordships will recollect that at the beginning of the proceedings it was indicated that we should carry on to a point between half past six and seven o'clock. I think this might be a convenient moment to move, which I now do, that the House be now resumed.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

COMPANIES BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.

BRIGHTON MARINA BILL
6.45 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of the Brighton Marina Bill, perhaps I should not be out of place in reminding your Lordships not only that the Bill has

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passed through all the usual stages in another place, but also that two proposed Instructions to the Committee in another place were in fact defeated. I should also like to declare my interest as a yacht owner, but I have no financial interest whatever in the undertaking.
The main purpose of the Bill is to authorise the construction of a yacht and boat harbour, now known commonly as a Marina, in the Kemp Town area of Brighton, near the Black Rock. In addition, the Bill will afford to Brighton further recreational, hotel and residential amenities, and the whole project will help to enhance Brighton's reputation as one of the country's leading holiday centres, and has the full support, I would say, of the Brighton Corporation.
The main justification for the Bill is the urgent need for accommodation for yachts and boats, both medium-sized and small, in the Brighton area and on the South Coast of Britain. Between the Isle of Wight, the Solent area, and Dover, which are many miles apart, there are comparatively few moorings for yachts, and the harbours are already congested. There is no doubt that many accidents have occurred owing to small boats being unable to find refuge on this coast.
The sport of yachting and boating has seen a surge of interest in recent years, especially among the younger generation. Some ten years ago, I would say, the enthusiasts numbered about 10,000; but I would say that the figure at the present day is well over 500,000. It will be possible to accommodate 2,000 yachts of various sizes in the Marina, in addition to some hundreds of dinghies and powered runabouts—very small boats indeed. I would point out that the project has also been approved by the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
It has been argued in some quarters that it is unnecessary to have other revenue-producing developments in addition to the harbour. I would draw your Lordships' attention to the Minister's letter, dated September 29, 1966, addressed to the promoters and the Brighton Corporation, in which the Minister states, in paragraph 7,
"that he accepts that a harbour and ancillary buildings would not be an economic proposition unless they are accompanied by other revenue-producing developments."
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I should like to stress a very important point, which I am now about to make. One or two marinas have been in fact built in this country without any revenue-producing elements attached; with the result that the cost of berthing for small yacht owners is prohibitive, as the return on capital invested has to be obtained solely from the yacht berths. I speak with considerable knowledge of these matters. The promoters and Brighton Corporation are anxious not to make this mistake, and are very anxious to provide accommodation at a reasonable cost for all yacht and boat owners, according to the size of the vessel.
It has, I think, been argued in some quarters that the building may be unsightly, and perhaps detract from the Regency buildings in the Kemp Town area of Brighton. I would point out to your Lordships that no building on the foreshore will be at a greater height than the level of the cliff top, immediately north of the site, and can have adverse effect whatever on other buildings. I think it is true to say that it has been suggested in some quarters that the Marina should be sited in another area. In the first place I would call your Lordships' attention to paragraph 3 of the Brighton Corporation's observations, as set out in the statement on behalf of the promoters. Paragraph 3 reads as follows:
"The comparatively small part of the foreshore, which will be lost to the public by the construction of the Marina, is not one of Brighton's better beaches. It is rock-strewn and of little attraction and use to bathers and its loss will have no adverse effect on the town's available seaside facilities for both residents and visitors."
In addition, the Minister of Housing and Local Government has stated, in paragraph 7 of his letter to the promoters, to which I have already referred that—and I use his words:
"This location is the one least likely to give rise to harmful effects on other parts of the town."
I would add that none of the national or local community interests have petitioned against this Bill. That is a fact which I would strongly stress in this debate.
I do not propose to go through the Bill clause by clause, which will no doubt be done thoroughly by the Select Committee in due course if the Second Reading is agreed to by your Lordships. On the other hand, there are one or two other

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matters to which I may rightly draw your Lordships' attention. In the first place, the Royal Yachting Association—the national authority of the sport—fully supports this Bill, and I think I am right in saying that many hundreds of yacht clubs and sailing clubs are members of this Association and cover all classes, from dinghies to large craft.
With regard to the question of access roads, the phasing of the construction would in fact be in conformity with the programme for the construction and opening of the various parts of the Marina development. The Brighton Corporation are satisfied that the access roads will make a substantial contribution to the solution of Brighton's future traffic problems. The Corporation have undertaken to take all the necessary steps to provide a road system, and the promoters of the Bill have agreed to pay a sum of £385,000 as a contribution to the cost. I should like to mention that before construction is commenced, the promoters are to satisfy the Brighton Corporation that adequate financial resources are available to ensure completion of the whole of the work in one operation, thus removing the risk of a substandard or incomplete development.
Incidentally, the agreed terms of the lease from the Corporation to the promoters will give the Corporation a share in the profits and a right to nominate two directors to the Board. I would stress that all the organisations in Brighton, such as the local chamber of commerce, the Hoteliers Association, the entertainment people and the fishermen and, last but not least, the elected representativcs of the borough, are in favour of the project.
I would suggest that this Bill is in no way a Party matter. In another place the Second Reading of the Bill was moved by the Socialist Member for the Kemp Town Division of Brighton and was supported by the Conservative Member for the Pavilion Division. I understand that one of the most vociferous Members of another place who opposed this Bill has recently moved into a flat in the Kemp Town area, overlooking the proposed development. He brought into the debate what I would say is a Party bias by advocating public ownership of the proposed development. I do not imagine that this will be pursued by your Lordships,
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but in any case I propose to forestall it by quoting the remarks made by the Parliamentary Secretary in another place:
"My right honourable friend does not take the view that there is anything wicked, unsocialist or in any way doctrinally objectionable about a partnership between a public authority and private enterprise. … It is a hard fact in development, particularly in urban development, and my right honourable friend has used his persuasive powers to encourage local authorities to recognise the need for a partnership, if only because of the blunt fact that they will not get the capital in any other way."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 13./3/67, col. 150.]
I do not think I need say any more on this aspect of the matter.
The consulting engineers employed by the Brighton Marina Company are well known to me and are employed by the Royal National Life-boat Institution, of which I am a Governor and a member of the managing committee, and your Lordships can rest assured that the building of the Marina is in good hands and if recommended by them is a feasible proposition; and this they have already done.
In conclusion, I would say that in Brighton the opposition to the Bill really comes from a few well-to-do people living in certain streets near the development area. As I have already mentioned, there will be no buildings above cliff height, so these people will not be cut off in any way from the sea. Perhaps I might add that the project has the approval of the Royal Fine Art Commission, and that a model of the whole undertaking is available for view in the Royal Gallery. I trust that all your Lordships who are taking part in the debate have had a look at it. This Bill will provide accommodation for the "little man" for his yacht or boat, at a reasonable cost, for the reasons which I have already given, and I hope I have also given sufficient information to indicate that the whole of the people of Brighton want this Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Teynham.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, before I state the Question, as it is not common in your Lordships' House to have an Instruction to a Committee, I think it might be of assistance if I said a word about the procedure. It is for me, of course, to

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state the Question, That the Bill be now read a second time. It will then be open to the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, or any other noble Lord, to address himself both to the Question, That the Bill be now read a second time, and to the Question, Whether the Select Committee should be given the Instruction which appears on the Order Paper. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, will reply at the end of that debate, and I shall then put the Question, That the Bill be read a second time. If that is carried, the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, will then move the Motion which appears in his name on the Order Paper. At that point it would be open to the noble Lord (or, of course, any other noble Lord) to move an Amendment to the Instruction, in which event of course the Amendment would be taken first and then the Instruction, amended or unamended, would be put.
If that is carried the noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees, would then move the Resolution which is in his name on the Order Paper, and therefore at the end of the list of speakers which your Lordships have there should be the name of the noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees. The noble Earl is, of course, also entitled to take part in the main debate, where his name appears after that of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, and I understand that he proposes to address himself to the procedure of Select Committees. The Question is, That the Bill be now read a second time.
6.57 p.m.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, on the technical question of the Instruction, about which I must at once profess a total unfamiliarity in relation to procedure, I should like to make two points. The Instruction was drafted, with some assistance, in the hope that it was moderate in character and would be found acceptable by the House. That was the intention of the Instruction, which was not designed in any way to be a controversial instruction.
I understand that some objection might be taken to the last sentence of the Instruction, which brings into consideration the question of precedents that might arise in other areas. I should like to say that in another place consideration was given to this question. There were
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learned allusions to Erskine May, and so forth, and it appeared that it was open to the House to take this factor into consideration in relation to Private Bills. I now understand, however, that inasmuch as this factor is relevant, it is considered that it is relevant for the whole House and should be considered on the Floor of the House and not by a Select Committee. Therefore, if it is the feeling of the House that the Instruction should be amended by deleting those last words, I would certainly not be adamant on that question.
The other technical matter is that I make an allusion to pleasure craft. That, of course, is not in my mind associated with craft of exceptional luxury and elegance in which people disport themselves in Mediterranean seas. I use the phrase because it is the phrase used in the Bill, and there is in fact a definition in the Bill which is entirely adequate for including any other category of craft and which it might be thought made it unnecessary to amend that particular phrase so far as the Instruction is concerned.
Coming to the substance of my remarks, I wholeheartedly agree with the mover of the Second Reading that this is not a political question. It seemed to me that, speaking from the Benches from which he spoke, it was rather paradoxical that he should seemingly have sought to introduce a political consideration by urging that the people who opposed this Bill were propertied people in Brighton and the opposition to the Bill was restricted to that category and that category alone. I would venture to say to him from my own personal knowledge that that is indeed not the case; I have received representations and heard voices from many people who could not be described as in that category.
It was an argument much deployed in another place. I think it may well have had something to do with the result achieved in another place in relation to this Bill. It is, if I may say so, as far as the Government are concerned a singularly unattractive argument. It apparently suggests that the only people who might be concerned with preserving places of beauty and places of tranquillity are people who possess property. It is not a contention I accept for one moment. I believe people are concerned with the

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preservation of the beaches of Brighton who possess no property, who possess little property or who possess much property. It is a completely inappropriate argument to suggest that the opposition is restricted to a category of persons who have their private interests and concerns at heart. I should like to hear before the end of the debate that that suggestion is withdrawn.
The second suggestion that one has to deal with is that this is a local matter to be determined by local decisions, that it has been fully and copiously discussed at local level and that it is inappropriate that we in this House should address ourselves to the question how far it is proper that there should be an enclosure of beach land for private purposes. This is an argument I totally reject. Local authorities are trustees of the land they possess; they are in transient possession of it. They come and they go; but the people of England continue to enjoy their beaches in perpetuity.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, may I intervene? The noble Lord is not suggesting that I put forward that argument, is he?
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, I was suggesting it. If the noble Lord is not putting that argument I am entirely content to leave that argument alone. It seems to me that all Members of the House must agree that this Bill, although a Private Bill, raises issues of great importance far exceeding the question of local administration. The question of enclosing half a mile of beach for private purposes is not a matter that one would wish to leave to the discretion or decision of any local administration. Without hesitation or apology, I assert that this is a matter for this House to consider with the greatest care.
The third matter to which I would make reference is that this debate is nothing to do with yachting. There has been much emphasis placed on the assertion that the Brighton Marina Bill is concerned with a yacht harbour, and that the opposition to it, in some way obliquely, is opposed to the practice or joys of yachting. May I say at once that no-one in this House is more strongly in support of the practice of yachting and the encouragement of yachting by
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young or old than I am. I think it is an excellent practice. In so far as Brighton or any other seaside resort wishes to establish a yacht harbour which would have the effect of encouraging yachting, it has my wholehearted support. But I believe yachting has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. I believe the issue we are discussing here this afternoon is a question of enclosing beach land for private purposes, not whether or not yachting should be encouraged.
I want to say this. I am not opposing the Second Reading. I think it would be inappropriate, the Bill having come this far and received consideration in another place, that the Second Reading should be opposed. I am asking that, having regard to the special, unique and rather startling features of the Bill, we should send it to the Committee with an injunction that it should receive the most careful consideration in relation to the factors in the Bill that I consider need to be studied and inspected if we are to discharge our duty as a Legislature having responsible recognition of things happening in the country. This is not a controversial Instruction. It does not enjoin anyone to reject the Bill. It is not designed to be tendentious. It is designed to draw to the attention of the Committee the feeling of this House that there are elements in this Bill which require very special consideration. I would invite all noble Lords to consider whether it may not be possible to accept this Instruction on an agreed basis as being designed for the purpose which I have indicated.
I think it is quite right that I should state—and I must occupy a little more time than the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading—why I consider there are unusual features in this Bill. The Bill is presented in two sections; the Preamble has two sections. One is the recommendation for a yachting harbour. The second is associated with massive offshore developments which it is suggested are necessary in order to make the yachting harbour economically viable. I have studied at some length—and it has been a painful operation—a good deal of the documentation connected with this project. I have not studied all the documentation, and if it should turn out that

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I say anything based on insufficient information I would apologise in advance and hope that noble Lords better informed will correct me at once, but I have made as detailed a study as I can in the time available to me.
It seems to me that the entire suggestion that this project is not economically viable derives from a very tenuous statement in the report of the inspector who conducted the public inquiry that in his opinion the evidence tended to show that the project was not economically viable. That is the only assertion anywhere upon which the whole of the enormous structure of this offshore development is in fact maintained and built. The purpose of my Instruction is to suggest that the Committee should consider, above everything else, what evidence there was and on what basis it was that the inspector decided there was evidence which tended to show that the Marina by itself and as a harbour for yachts was not economically viable.
There are two very extraordinary factors associated with this matter. The first is that if one studies the development of this project it emerges in a somewhat strange way. The mover of the Second Reading in another place said that it was the brainchild of a Brighton businessman. May I say at once that I would not venture any criticism at all of anyone who had a bright or original idea of this kind. If there is a bright or original idea on the part of a citizen of Brighton it should be commended. But what is very strange is this. It appears that from that moment onwards the Brighton businessman, joined by associates—and I am imputing nothing to the discredit of anybody; I am not suggesting lack of bona fides or anything like that—in an excess of zeal and enthusiasm for the project, joining with colleagues and associates and allies proceeded to enter into constant communion with Brighton Corporation, and the matter has proceeded on the footing that they, and they alone, have contributed notions and ideas about the whole scheme.
The scheme which is now being considered is a scheme thought of as emanating from one company or organisation, without a vestige of competition or suggestion that any other body has proffered
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any ideas at all. Think of the implications of this: the economics of the situation are those as reported by the inspector—that the Marina is to cost £3·7 million. I do not know whether that is reasonable or unreasonable costing, economic or expensive. But I know this: it is costing based on the notions and ideas of the one corporate body that was involved in costing it. Nobody knows whether if another body saw fit to prepare a costing, to prepare plans on the spot, they would arrive at a figure of £2·7 million or £4·7 million. All we know is that there is a costing from one body in competition with nobody.
The second factor we know is that the offshore development rendered necessary if the scheme is to be viable, according to the sponsors of the scheme, is to cost £10 million. Here, again, that is the costing of the single development company that had an opportunity of being concerned in this matter. It appears to me, to put it at the height of moderation, to be a matter for the most careful scrutiny and consideration by the Committee, and ultimately by this House, as to whether a scheme which arises in this way, in respect of which there appears to be no sort of active competition, in respect of which no other ideas are invited or used or employed, should in fact be allowed to operate without, as I say, the intervention of other notions and ideas. I am not suggesting that we should reject the scheme, or that we should do anything with the scheme except examine it.
When we come to look at the economics there are some very significant and interesting features—and I refer to the report of the inspector. The only economic evidence is to be found at page 19 of the report. So far as I know, there is no other economic evidence anywhere. What it says is this: that the Marina, considered as a marina alone, is to house 2,000 boats—
LORD TEYNHAM: Would the noble Lord indicate to me which paragraph?
LORD GOODMAN: Yes; it is paragraphs 148 to 151 inclusive, in the inspector's official report. In that document, which is the only place where, as I say, I have found any economic evidence of any kind, it is stated that this marina, this yacht harbour, is to house 2,000 yachts and that in fact rental will

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be obtained for something like 1,850 yachts. Apparently, berths are reserved for 150 yachts, and by some yachting courtesy no payment is obtained for those particular yachts—a matter I do not understand. But in any event, there is rent to be due in respect of 1,850 yachts. It is then stated that a fair rental for these yachts has been considered to be something possibly between £5 and £7 10s.
There are no findings of any kind by the inspector on this matter. There is no whisper of any evidence on this matter There is a simple, bold assertion that there are to be 2,000 yachts, which is the scheme of this particular development company, and that somebody thinks that these yachts might pay £5 per annum per foot of the harbour for the length of the harbour they occupy, and somebody else thinks that they might pay £7 10s. per annum. Then somebody else has a notion that a fair return on the money employed should be 10 per cent. Therefore they decide (and I have a feeling, if I may say so, that sometimes enthusiasm can produce a result that a less enthusiastic mathematician might not produce) that the proper figure to charge for these yachts is the sum of £6 10s. per foot. This produces the rather attractive conclusion, from some points of view, that you will get only 7·36 per cent. on your money, so you are short by 2·64 per cent., if my arithmetic is right, of the expected 10 per cent. needed for a proper return.
All of this is the hypothesis upon which the whole of this structure is built. All of this depends upon these few paragraphs, and none of this is the subject of any finding by anybody. There is no evidence as to this; and of course it is crucial to the whole matter. Because if you could build a harbour for 2,500 yachts, if you could charge £7 15s. 4d. for it, you would get your 10 per cent. I do not know what the costs ought to be for a yacht. I have not the figment of an idea. It seems to me a massive charge—
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, would the noble Lord forgive me for one moment? There is no question of charging £8 or £10 a foot for a yacht. It is much more likely to be in the nature of £3. The trouble has been, as I tried to explain in my speech, that two or three
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marinas have been built without the revenue for the ancillary buildings. The result is that they have had to charge a high rate to yacht owners, and the small man with his boat and small yacht cannot berth because he cannot afford it.
LORD GOODMAN: My reply to that must be simply this. I am totally sympathetic to the problems of yacht owners; I am most keen that they should have yacht accommodation within their economic reach and possibility. But this Report states—and the whole of this project is based upon this Report—that an attractive rent to the yacht owner will be £6 10s. That statement is based on no evidence. The noble Lord opposite says that that figure should be £3. On the basis of £3, how are we to know that the supporting developments which are to bring in revenue in aid of the yachts are sufficient? How are we to know that there ought not to be £20 million worth of development? If in fact my noble friend is saying that £3 is the right rental, then all these figures need to be reorganised.
If ever an intervention justified the need for an Instruction in this matter, if I may venture to say so to the noble Lord, it is this particular intervention on this particular matter: because what is quite clear is that no reliance at all can be placed on these figures. There is no evidence in respect of them—not a whisper or tittle of evidence. We have a situation where a non-competitive body is placed in a monopoly position, produces figures with no one else producing any figures of any kind; and we have another situation where we are told that we have to produce £10 million worth of urban type development on the beaches in order to subsidise and support the revenue that they will receive from the yachts. Why, I ask, £10 million? Why not £20 million?
There is one most significant economic omission from this Report. There is no assessment at all of the revenue that is to be received from the £10 million worth of offshore development; nothing to tell us to what percentage figure their ultimate return will reach; nothing to tell us whether it will be 10 per cent., whether they are going to make the £75,000-odd that is missing, or whether they are going to make £750,000, or £7 million. There is not a whisper of this. May I venture to say this—and without intending a word of

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criticism of the inspector? The inspector who made this Report was the most conscientious and skilful man, who had a most difficult job to do. But he is, I am sure, a chartered surveyor; he is a gentleman engaged in planning matters. These were economic considerations. It was quite ridiculous that considerations of this kind should be the subject only of a planning inquiry; quite ridiculous that there should not have been the most careful economic consideration attached to the matter by experts who could think in terms of economics before this particular project got as far as it did.
The argument advanced by the noble Lord that this matter has been thoroughly investigated and debated in other places is totally unwarranted and totally untenable. Anyone who reads the Reports of the debates in another place, anyone who sees what has been said, will find that there is not a suggestion, not a ghost of an answer, to any of the matters of concern or disquiet and misgiving that must arise on reading this Report.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, would my noble friend suggest that on economic matters a lawyer is more competent than an engineer?
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, I do not know that I am required to answer that question. I am not putting myself forward as an expert on economic matters. I am saying that a lawyer is able to discern when there is an absence of expertise. If I may say so, we are well trained to do that, and I think that I have the capacity to do it. I should be most surprised if any noble Lord, lawyer or otherwise, who reads this particular document does not arrive at my conclusion. It has nothing whatever to do with lawyers, and the popular device of invoking the unpopularity of lawyers is not a useful one in this particular debate.
It is a late hour, and this will be a long debate. However, there are quite a number of other things to be said. Your Lordships will have an opportunity of seeing the buildings in the model which the noble Lord, with great courage and temerity, has invited you to examine, and I endorse that invitation with a whole heart. I would beg that everyone here should go and look at the model, because
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there is nothing more revealing of the true nature of this particular operation. I should like to read out what in fact that miscellany of buildings consists of—and you will find it in Section 40 of the Bill. There is authorised to be built on an attractive piece of beach land which many of you know, and which at the moment is enjoyed freely by the entire population of this country—
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, may I intervene, to put the matter right? Perhaps the noble Lord does not realise that the greater part of this land on which the ancillary buildings would be built would be reclaimed land, and not land already in existence.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, here again I have no wish to prolong this debate. Please go and look at the model. There is authorised to be built upon an area of beach land which involves enclosing something like half a mile of beach, one of the most unusual operations in the whole history of the coastline of this country. There is authorised to be built the following range of buildings: car parks, filling stations, hotels restaurants, club premises, offices, theatres, cinemas, casinos, dance halls, ice rinks, playgrounds, boatyards, bowling alleys, shops, houses, flats and other residential accommodation.
This startling range of buildings is what is authorised to be built on this particular piece of the foreshore; and it is authorised to justify the suggestion and under the pretext—I use the word advisedly—that the income from this astonishing agglomeration of buildings (though no evidence of any kind was called to show the need for any single one of them in any part of the town) is required if Brighton is to be able to have a harbour for small yachts: that the harbour can be provided only if this immense accumulation of buildings is built on the beach.
There is one other observation I should like to make. This inquiry was a planning inquiry. My Lords, it is the oddest sort of planning that allows a collection of buildings of this type to be approved en masse without individual consideration of their need; without anybody inquiring whether there is available any other site in the locality; without anybody asking whether they are wanted at

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all—purely on the basis that some other piece of development depends upon them for economic purposes. It is an entire planning novelty to me, and I hope that it will not be repeated.
I have not moved to reject the Second Reading of this Bill, for the reasons I have stated. What I urge is that the House has the duty to see that this Bill is most closely inquired into. I urge that in the circumstances whereby one development company procures a monopoly of this kind, the circumstances whereby these tenuous and exiguous economic facts are used as a justification, the whole matter should be looked into with the utmost care and the most meticulous scrutiny. I invite the House to do this, because I believe that the House will be discharging its duty if it does so.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord talks about the buildings being put up haphazardly without any control. Planning permission has to be obtained for all these buildings, and they will be scrutinised by the Brighton Corporation.
LORD GOODMAN: I did not intend to go on any longer, but I must reply to that statement. The answer is that buildings of this type are now to be authorised by an Act of Parliament, if this Bill becomes an Act. They are authorised without any single one of them having demonstrated the need for its existence.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would clear my mind on one point in his most interesting and persuasive argument—a point that rather puzzles me. The noble Lord does not oppose the Second Reading of the Bill. He is not opposed to a yacht marina; he thinks it is a good thing. The maid issue in his mind is that a portion of the foreshore, which the Brighton Corporation, and indeed the Minister himself do not regard as being a matter of vital principle, should be used for other purposes. But would not the noble Lord agree that, if one accepts the principle of a marina, it is the marina, not the filling stations and the oceanarium, whatever that may be, that will occupy the foreshore? The very fact that the marina is built and enclosed is what takes away the beach. It is the marina,
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and not the buildings which are put on the reclaimed land.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, I do not know whether I may be permitted to say one more word in reply. I would not agree. The point about a marina and the enclosure of a beach for marina purposes is that this is to be a public operation on which perhaps there may be a few conventional-type beach amenities with which one is familiar, and which are entirely consonant with a beach. But if the noble Lord will go and look at the model, he will see the astonishing erections which are proposed. They have nothing to do with yachting and are not the sort of things which would be required by any yachtsman. What true yachtsman would want a bowling alley or a casino in respect of his yachting activities?
LORD COLERAINE: The noble Lord will admit that once you enclose the yachting basin with the concrete works, you have by that act enclosed the beach. The adding of a filling station does not make any difference.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, it is quite customary to put one question to a speaker when he finishes, but not a series, if I may say so, with very great deference to the noble Lord.
LORD COLERAINE: The series is over, my Lords.
7.26 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if I were to intervene very briefly, because have regard to the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Egremont, at this stage in the debate. I should like to indicate to your Lordships certain procedural considerations, both in relation to the Bill and to the Instruction which the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, will move if the Bill is given a Second Reading. I should like first to emphasise to your Lordships, although most of your Lordships will know this, that in giving a Second Reading to a Private Bill the House does not, as in the case of a Public Bill, affirm the principle of the Bill. Normal practice in the present century is that the House contents itself with giving a formal Second Reading to a Private Bill. The reason is quite simple. There are few issues on Private Bills which the House

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can possibly decide without the benefit of hearing parties and witnesses—the promoters of the Bill, the petitioners against the Bill, and any witnesses whom they may wish to call to give evidence on their behalf. It is, therefore, the almost universal practice for your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a Private Bill so that, having had its Second Reading, it can be considered and decided upon by a Committee of your Lordships' House.
Turning to the Bill itself, I might say something about its past history. The Bill was started in another place, and when it was there there was one petition against it which was considered by a Select Committee, and the Committee reported that the Bill should proceed. But the Bill was debated at every stage in another place and gave rise to considerable controversy, as it has done to-day in your Lordships' House. In this House there are at the moment no petitions against the Bill, and in the normal course of events it would be considered by the Committee on Unopposed Bills. I am, however, empowered, under Standing Order 92 of our Private Bill Standing Orders, to report to the House that an unopposed Private Bill such as this one should be proceeded with as an opposed Private Bill. The effect of such a report is that the Bill would be considered by a Select Committee and not by the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
In view of the circumstances of this Bill and the interest which it has aroused, which has been very apparent in the course of this debate, unless your Lordships express the view that this is undesirable, I shall make such a report to the House. The Select Committee which would in that event consider the Bill will not be able to meet until after the Summer Recess. It is for this reason that I have placed on the Order Paper the necessary Resolution which will enable the Bill to continue its progress next Session. Your Lordships will know that if I did not move such a Resolution the Bill would die at the end of this Session.
I should now like to turn to the Instruction which has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman. First of all, I would say that the terms of the Instruction are unobjectionable procedurally, and therefore from the procedural point of view the Instruction is
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acceptable to the House. It is rather more widely drawn than usual, but in view of the proposed reference of the Bill to a Select Committee it may be an advantage for the Committee to have received such a precise Instruction from the House; and, of course, the Select Committee would also study very carefully indeed all the speeches which have been made, and will later on be made, in the course of this debate. I would also expect that, as is usually the case when an Instruction to a Select Committee has been passed by your Lordships, the Select Committee would make a special report on the Bill to the House and deal in particular with the matters which have been raised in the Instruction.
I should like to make one comment on the last few words in the Instruction. These words raise the question whether the works proposed are desirable as a precedent for other areas. It is these words, "as a precedent for other areas", to which I should like to direct attention. In my view, this part of the Instruction would be hard for the Select Committee to fulfil. I am also not satisfied that it would be correct for them to attempt to do so. The promoters of a Private Bill are under an obligation to prove the preamble of their Bill before a Committee of each House, and the allegations in the preamble are based on considerations of local circumstances and needs in support of which evidence may be adduced.
The principle involved is that Committees decide on matters in the Preamble on which they have heard argument and evidence. It would be unreasonable to expect the Committee and the Promoters to examine the provisions of the Bill, with a view to justifying them as precedents for other areas of which neither the Committee nor the Promoters can know anything. I think it is important that this principle should be preserved: that Private Bill Promoters are required to justify their Bill only on allegations and evidence of local need, and should not be asked to justify the provisions for which they ask as precedents for other areas. I was therefore very pleased to hear the suggestion which the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, made in the course of his speech.
Of course, the exception to this principle would be a case where it was

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apparent to the House that, whatever the local circumstances may be, the powers conferred by the Bill should not be allowed to the Promoters because they are against public policy and against the public interest. But in such a case it would be appropriate for the Bill to be dealt with and the relevant arguments deployed on the Floor of the House and not in a Private Bill Committee. Those are all the procedural considerations to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend would give me some indication as to what he meant when he said that the Promoters of the Bill are not expected to justify their actions as precedents for other areas. I was at a loss to understand what he meant by that.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I was referring to the last few words in the Instruction which the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, proposed to move, in which he was asking the Committee to consider this Bill as a precedent for other areas in other parts of the country. I gave reasons why I thought it was undesirable for a Select Committee on a Private Bill to take this particular consideration into account. Then I went on to say that I thought that such a consideration was a perfectly relevant consideration to be dealt with on the Floor of the House as a matter of public policy.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, surely the establishment of a precedent is a vitally important consideration. I am sure I must be misunderstanding my noble friend's point of view. He is not suggesting that one should ignore the establishment of a precedent?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: No, my Lords. I was making no suggestion of that kind. I was merely saying that if any noble Lord attached importance—as the noble Lord himself evidently does—to this consideration, it is a matter which should be discussed and debated on the Floor of the House and not in the Select Committee.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, might I ask one procedural question? If a direction or Instruction, such as the one we are considering to-day, is given, that
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does not, of course, relieve the Select Committee of the duty which they may have to consider points outside the direction. I ask the question, because on the last stages of the Bill in another place a number of comparatively minor points were raised and really left for consideration here.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's question is in the affirmative.
7.33 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I must make it clear straightaway that, although I happen by chance to be speaking from this Despatch Box, I am speaking strictly for myself this evening. I am not seeking to give any guidance to anybody other than myself. That is by way of preface. By way of introduction, I would say strightaway that we all know that we are dealing here with one of our most precious seaside towns. As Bath is to our inland towns, so is Brighton to our seaside towns. Perhaps local patriots, both inland and coastal, might dispute this view, but I think it would be fairly generally agreed. It is right, therefore, that we should consider this Bill very carefully, especially because this House is always jealous of amenity, and zealous, I hope, in its defence. I would entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, has said on that general point.
That said, I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Teynham on the clarity with which he has moved the Second Reading. I suspect that most of us, whatever we feel about this Bill, will recognise the need for more marinas, for more marinas on the South Coast of our island, and for a marina near Brighton itself. We are all aware—or, if we are not, we jolly well should be—of the tremendous growth in the popularity of sailing. I suppose that the expansion of leisure activities of all sorts is really one of the most remarkable phenomena which we have witnessed in the two decades since the war, and I think that most of us would also agree that it is a good thing that yachting—a good and healthy occupation—should be as popular to-day as it is. I had the good fortune only the other day to take part in a Round-the-Island Race and I remember what the race was before the war, with perhaps 30 or 40 rather large yachts taking part. But at

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the start off Cowes, a fortnight or so ago there were, I think, 380 yachts of every sort, size and description.
But this remarkable growth in sailing in our comparatively restricted waters has brought its inevitable problems, the chief of which is parking. I think it is true to say that in many places now along our South Coast it is just as difficult to park one's yacht or one's dinghy as it is to park one's car. Hence the need for marinas and hence, in essence, the justification for the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Goodman, rather surprised me when he said—I think I am quoting him correctly—that this has nothing to do with yachting. This Bill raises a great number of other issues, but I should have thought that the main issue with which it certainly is concerned is to make things easier for the yachtsman. My noble friend Lord Teynham has made these points and therefore I shall not elaborate on them.
Apart from anything else he said, he has emphasised—and I think emphasised quite legitimately—that the scheme has been backed and fully supported by the Corporation of Brighton; that the local fishermen are very keen on it; that it was subject to an exhaustive nine days' inquiry; that the inspector, in recommending it—and I see that he is an Associate of the Royal Institute of British Architects—described it as bold, imaginative and attractive, whatever we may think about it when we look at the model outside; that it has been endorsed, subject to certain conditions, by the Minister; that it has not been opposed by any of the national amenity societies; that it has passed the fairly fine mesh of the Royal Fine Art Commission; and that it was approved—admittedly after a pretty warm debate—in another place.
This Bill, as I understand it, is not being petitioned against in your Lordships' House, and I have no doubt whatsoever, like the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, that we should give it a Second Reading. But because we are dealing with this unique town, because the scheme is a very major one involving major development, because it has aroused controversy, it is surely right that we should all voice any reservations now which we may have on it.
I think I have four queries and I should like briefly to summarise them. In the
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first place, I have naturally asked myself whether it is right that a project of this sort should be carried through by private interests, and whether it was really necessary to graft on to the basic concept of the yacht harbour or the marina other developments which we have seen on the model outside. I personally believe that this is just the sort of project which private enterprise in this country should be tackling, although—and I am expressing here a purely personal view—I myself should have liked to see the Brighton Corporation more actively involved in the whole transaction, possibly by way of some equity participation from the start.
I know that all the ancillary buildings—the flats, the botel (and I very much hope that my noble friend Lord Cones-ford, who is not here this evening, will quickly succeed in erasing that word from the English dictionary), the shops, the skating rink, the bowling alleys and—horror of horrors!—the night club and the restaurant have been criticised. I was a little surprised by some of the criticisms of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, on this point, because it seems to me that quite a large number of these ancillary by-products of the Marina have something to do with yachting and yachtsmen. A yacht harbour and a boatyard, which were included in his list, seem to me to have a great deal to do with sailing; a marina club, a restaurant—it is normal that yachtsmen should eat. Then, shops—they need to buy their stores—an hotel, a boatel, residential units and even pubs. I have known yachtsmen occasionally frequent pubs. It seemed to me that quite a lot of the list had a great deal to do with yachting and yachtsmen. However, that is by the way.
I myself thoroughly enjoyed the pyrotechnics in which the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, indulged on this question of economics and of this connection between the two. But, as my noble friend has pointed out, the inspector accepted the view that in all probability this scheme could not be economic without these ancillary developments. The noble Lord, Lord Goodman, has made a great deal of play with this aspect, and it is perhaps something that should be examined. All I can point out is that the Minister, who is a careful Minister of a careful Government, as we know,

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presumably examined the evidence. I see that in his Decision Letter he states that he accepts that there is an ever-increasing demand for more yacht moorings, but that
"a new harbour and ancillary buildings here would not be an economic proposition unless they are accompanied by other revenue-producing developments."
I am sure the Minister of this present Government would not have come lightly to that conclusion without a very careful study of all the evidence in front of him; and I am quite certain that if more evidence was required he must have called for it. But that is by the way. It seems to me that the Minister's decision on this and his views are stated in much more emphatic terms than the views of the inspector.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD KENNET): May I interrupt the noble Earl for a moment? If the Minister had called for more evidence after the receipt of the inspector's report, he might have been bound to reopen the inquiry; and this, as we know, he did not do.
EARL JELLICOE: I see. If he did not feel that was either necessary or desirable. That is by the way. But I see that he accepts the view, and presumably he did not accept it lightly.
My Lords, whatever we may feel about this, I am pretty certain myself, from all I know about other marinas, that it really is not possible to provide cheap moorings for the smaller boats and the less affluent yachtsmen unless there are other allied facilities producing revenue. That is my own view; but on that broad ground I personally would come down fairly and squarely in favour of the scheme. I will not say that I am committed to every precise detail in it, but I agree that there must be other, allied developments.
My second query is about pollution. The inspector thought that the amount of beach pollution could be significant, and the Minister has called upon the public health authorities to take all possible steps to deal with it. I should very much like to know more about what is proposed here. My third query is about traffic. I notice that the inspector felt that the extra traffic generated by the
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scheme could be successfully accommodated, but parking place is being provided for, I think, 3,600 cars, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, will be able to tell us that the road programme within and, above all, around Brighton will, in fact, be able to cope with this very great increase, loaded on top of the natural and inevitable increase which will be taking place without this extra 3,600.
My fourth query is about the height of the buildings themselves. I noted, of course, that the second condition in paragraph 13 of the Decision Letter states firmly that
"no building shall be higher than the cliff top."
This seems to me an absolutely essential condition if the appearance of Kemp Town, with its lovely Regency terraces, is not to be spoilt. But I have also noted that the first subsection of Section 58 of the Bill talks about no such higher buildings being erected:
"Save with the prior consent of the corporation …"
I again have noted that the Minister in another place thought that this was a matter which we here should look further into. May I take it that the Minister's condition, and not what is said in the Bill, is overriding here; and overriding, as it were, for all time? I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, or my noble friend, will be able to allay such reservations as I have on those three or four points. But even if they were not able to do so, this would not affect my view that we should be right, for the same reason as was advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, to give this Bill a Second Reading.
There remains the question whether we should give an Instruction to our Committee, and, if so, whether it should be in the terms suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman. It is, of course, pretty unusual for us to do so on a Bill of this sort, although there was a precedent in the Tees Valley Bill. I personally am inclined to agree with the Lord Chairman of Committees, that in view of the controversy which this Bill has aroused he should exercise his discretion under our Private Bill Standing Order No. 92, (I think it is), and have the Bill considered by a Select Committee. I also agree that it would be a good thing in this case for

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our Committee of Selection to choose a balanced Committee. But, personally, I am inclined to doubt whether it is really necessary for us to have an Instruction. Surely, in the discharge of their task our Select Committee will in any case be bound to take account of the views expressed on both sides of this question in our House this evening. That is my own view of the matter, though, of course, your Lordships may feel otherwise.
If your Lordships decide that an Instruction is required, I feel that it would be wise for the House to look very carefully at the terms of the Instruction; and, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, has said about it being designed to be as neutral as possible, I must say that I am not entirely happy about his precise wording. The Motion on the Order Paper would instruct the Committee
"… to consider how far the works proposed … go beyond what is necessary to provide a harbour for pleasure craft …"
That is the wording used. "A harbour for pleasure craft" could mean a lot or a little. It could mean just a tiny harbour for a few luxury yachts and their luxurious owners. But what the Promoters have in mind here, as I understand it, is a large modern marina capable of meeting the anticipated demand for this type of mooring at reasonable charges. I should have thought that if we are to have an Instruction it would be wise to spell this out in some such way, as I personally find the wording chosen by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, although it is intended to be neutral, in fact rather restrictive. I share, too, the doubts of the Lord Chairman of Committees about the last seven words of the Instruction, but I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, himself is inclined to share those particular doubts.
My Lords, I would summarise my personal position on this matter as follows. I am quite clear that we should give this Bill a Second Reading. I hope that its Promoters, my noble friend or the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, will be able to answer to my satisfaction the doubts on certain points which I have ventilated. I believe that we should have a Select Committee, and I am inclined to doubt whether we need an Instruction. But if your Lordships feel that there is a need for an Instruction, I should find
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it very difficult myself to vote for the Instruction as at present worded, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, would consider enlarging it in some way. As drawn, it seems to me to be very restrictive.
Before sitting down, I should just like to say two further things. First, I very much regret that owing to a very longstanding engagement I shall have to leave the Chamber for some little time. I hope to be able to return if there is going to be a Division. I should also like to add this. I had the pleasure quite recently of helping to pilot the Civic Amenities Bill through your Lordships' House. I believe very profoundly that this House should concern itself intimately with matters of amenity: and, although I have not attempted to labour this point, I have scrutinised this Bill and this project with those considerations of amenity very much in my mind.
7.50 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I am afraid that I am not qualified to speak on the accommodation needed for yachts; or, indeed, on the building plans that I have heard about tonight; or on the financial arrangements of this proposition. However, I want to speak very shortly on a certain aspect of the Marina which strikes me very forcefully and which arouses my emotions. Having had a long training in another place, my first reaction to the Bill, which is concerned with Brighton, and which, I understand, comes within the interest of the Brighton Members of Parliament, a Labour Member and a Conservative Member, was to say that these representatives must know all about Brighton; that this is their affair, and that I had no intention of interfering. Indeed, when one or two people spoke to me about this I felt that it was so complicated that I could not possibly make a contribution.
However, something else has been brought to my attention, and this is the aspect on which I want to speak tonight. Brighton, of course, is a place which we all regard affectionately. It has been called "London-by-the-Sea", and a Londoner, like myself, regards it as a place which one can reach in one hour, and smell the sea and the salt. As a child—and noble Lords will forgive me this personal allusion when they

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realise how strongly I feel about this aspect of the plan—I lived for three or four years in a house at Westgate, the garden of which ran right down to the beach. On those lovely sands, on that lovely beach, I used to ride the milkman's horse. I am not suggesting that you could ride a milkman's horse along these beaches at Brighton. Nevertheless, those glorious beaches and those happy, carefree days have left a lasting impression on me. When I go abroad and see beaches desecrated by commercial interests, where children have to pay to play on the best parts of the beach, I am seized with a desire to denounce those greedy men who profit from exploiting the birth-right of the people. On hearing about the Brighton Marina Bill, I inquired whether it was intended to enclose the beaches; and I learned that this was the case in Brighton; that it was intended to enclose our beaches—
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I intervene only to explain again that there is practically no beach in the Black Rock area and that all the area is to be reclaimed land.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: But my Lords, there is a foreshore. I know the Black Rock area very well. There is a foreshore; everybody knows it. The noble Lord cannot really deny it. He must go down and examine it again. I understand that part of this will be enclosed; and I presume that from this there will be other developments. There will be charges made by the commercial interests for people to go on to a certain part of the shore. This is the principle which I utterly reject as being wrong.
I felt that it was quite in order for me to make my protest, because on consulting Erskine May I read:
"The promoters of a Bill may prove beyond a doubt that their own interests will be advanced by its success and no one may complain of injury or urge any specific objection, yet if Parliament apprehends that it will be hurtful to the community it is rejected as if it were a public measure."
I maintain that this will be hurtful to the community, that it will create a precedent, a precedent which will be quickly followed by other developers, and that it will lead to the leasing of the foreshore around our coasts. It is this precedent that I am asking your Lordships to consider. I feel that we must reject this Bill, not only on
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behalf of certain people in Brighton, people who hitherto have used the foreshore, but on behalf of people living around the whole coast of Britain.
There are many, of course, who know this area of Brighton better than most. I noticed that Professor Marcus Cunliffe of Sussex University made a similar protest in The Times. He wrote:
"Leasing-off the foreshore creates a dangerous precedent for our whole coastline."
This may sound very simple to those who are engaged in these manipulations and Colossal financial transactions; but I feel strongly that the foreshore belongs to the people. The beach, I feel, is the only place where, even if only for a short time, our society enjoys a common ownership of the land. As a doctor I have often looked at people on the beach and said to myself: "When you strip off the clothes you are unable to identify the Peer from the peasant."
My Lords, this is England, and here to-night—and this may be our last chance—we have an opportunity of preventing this exploitation, an exploitation that will not stop in Brighton. This Bill reminds us that we could go back to the times of the enclosure of public land. Therefore I feel that we must exercise our vigilance. I am aware that the Corporation and the political Parties of Brighton want this Bill. But are they capable of objectivity? Even the noble Lord who moved the Motion began his speech by saying: "I am a yacht-owner." Can the noble Lord view this objectively? I suggest that he cannot; and I suggest that many people in Brighton cannot view it objectively. On the other hand, I should have said to the Corporation, and to all the other people interested in the prosperity of Brighton, that the increasing noise and hustle of urban life is so strident that I should have thought a holiday resort would recognise that its attraction will be assured if it can offer a quiet oasis where people can relax and contemplate a lanscape and a seascape, unspoiled by the ravages of modern civilisation.
Before your Lordships make up your minds, before you are convinced by this juggling of figures, before you believe that perhaps it is for the best interest of Brighton that they should have this Marina, this glorified funfair, and even before there is the harbour for the yachts, I entreat you to remember that to-night

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you will be establishing a precedent, a very dangerous precedent, for the foreshore of Britain.
7.59 p.m.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, in passing I would observe, if I may, that the noble Baroness who has just sat down would have a few surprises if she were to investigate her legal rights on the foreshore. She would find, in fact, that they do not exist, and that nobody, no member of the public at all, has any right to do anything whatever on the foreshore except two things: one is to fish and the other is to navigate. So that when the noble Baroness goes on the foreshore to take air and exercise she is doing something that she has no right to do in this country.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that I have a moral right?
LORD MERTHYR: Well, my Lords, I did not know that we were talking about moral rights.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Yes, my Lords, we are.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I will leave it at that, but I thought I would say that in passing.
The noble Baroness objected to the enclosure of this area of the coast for a harbour. What about Dover? What about Ramsgate? What about a hundred and one other harbours around our coasts and the coasts of other countries? How can you have a harbour if you do not enclose some part of the shore?
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, would not the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, agree that these are different operations? The harbours he has mentioned are operated by a public authority, and the analogy is quite wrong.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I do not know that they are all operated by public authorities. There are various kinds of harbour authorities. I have not made a study of how many are public and how many are private; but certainly some of them are private.
It occurs to me, having listened to the debate so far, that there is little more to say. It appears to be agreed that this
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Bill is to have a Second Reading tonight. If it is not, I shall be corrected. But if that is so, need we prolong the debate very much? And can we concentrate on the proposed Instruction? I have looked at the Instruction, and I suggest that perhaps the most significant word is in the first line where it says that the Committee are to "consider" something. I am a very strong supporter of this Bill, but I do not really mind the Committee's considering this matter or any other. I would observe in connection with something said by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that it is surely not intended that the Committee are to consider only this matter, to the exclusion of others. Surely nobody thinks that. Yet I thought that possibly the noble Earl did. There is surely no danger that if this Instruction were passed the Committee would feel bound to restrict themselves to this point. I should think certainly not.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, may I respectfully remind the noble Lord that that is exactly the question I asked the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees? And he agreed that if this Instruction were given, it would not preclude the Committee from considering other matters.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, I should have thought that was plain and obvious to everybody. But there it is. Now we are agreed that is so, anyway. Therefore, although I want this Bill I feel that there is little objection that can be taken to this Instruction. If there is a Select Committee (and I understand that there is to be one, in any event) what difference will it make? Will they not have to consider this point anyway, whether the Instruction is passed or not? I would strongly urge that the last seven words of the Instruction should be left out. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, is agreeable: so even that seems to be agreed. What is there, my Lords, that is not agreed?
May I say, in a very few words, that I have no interest to declare in Brighton. I have not been there for years. But I am a very keen yachtsman. I have been into a great many harbours in this country and in many other countries. I think there is a great and serious shortage

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age of yacht accommodation in this country. I, as a yachtsman, am prepared to pay for accommodation, though I cannot help reflecting that if I go across the Channel I get better accommodation and pay nothing whatever for it. I came through the French canals last year, and I came through 350 locks between the Mediterranean and the English Channel. Apart from one tunnel, at which I had to pay, I did not pay one single sou for the lot. In all seriousness I would say that conditions in our country compare very adversely in this matter to the conditions now existing in other countries. They all have their yacht harbours and their marinas; and compared to them, this country is years and years behind. I can frankly say that I am not interested in casinos or flats, but I am interested in the provision of yacht harbours. At present, yachtsmen think seriously that it is hardly worth going down the English Channel, because the chances are that they will not be able to get accommodation anywhere; so it is better to go to France. As I said before, I will not detain the House further. There is little more to be said, though I observe that there are quite a number of speakers still to be heard, and I will willingly give way to them. I repeat, I am a strong supporter of this Bill.
8.6 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I find very little upon which I differ from the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, but I am not quite such an optimist as he is in thinking that all those who are speaking to the Bill will necessarily accept what I regard as a very harmless and, in the circumstances, a necessary Instruction. That is really all that remains. We are all agreed that this Bill should have a Second Reading, if only because it would be wholly inappropriate to turn down on Second Reading a Bill which has passed all its stages in another place. We are all agreed that something is needed by way of what is called in the proposed Instruction "a harbour for pleasure craft", and I should have thought it ought to be left to the Committee to decide questions about the size of that and the rest of it. It is eminently a matter for them.
My Lords, what we do not agree about, as I understand it, is this. It is said, and was said by the Minister, that this would not be a viable proposition
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without what I will call the onshore works. These are really a substantial part of what is, from the point of view of the Promoters, a purely commercial operation. They are going to cost £10 million out of the total of £13 million. Those were the estimates given to us. Those figures depend, I notice, purely on the evidence of the Promoters themselves. The Brighton Corporation had some sort of look at it, but I do not think the Committee on this Bill, whatever may have happened on the planning application, had any other evidence whatever but that of the financial director of the company in question. I accept that they are experienced. This private company is one of the 210 subsidiaries of the Allied Land Investment Company which, in its turn, is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Allied Land Holdings. It became a subsidiary because those in whose fertile brains—and I mean that politely and sensibly—this idea originated, handed over control, I do not know on what terms, on or about March 22 of this year.
This experienced company had, in fact, so they told the Committee, been seriously considering this project since last October. It is, from their point of view, a commercial venture. I do not ask them to be philanthropists and I do not think any the worse of them for expecting and hoping to be successful. While we are on questions of cost, I ought to point out that there is another thing. The same financial director, when asked about this, explained that there was still a lot to be done by way of investigating the project, and only after that would he be able to know what was the cost. My Lords, in all these circumstances one asks oneself, what was the evidence upon which the inspector thought there was a tendency to show that the matter would not be viable without the off-shore works? What induced the Minister to be satisfied that that was the case? My Lords, I do not like differing from my own Ministers, but I have read through the evidence, and the evidence given before the Committee, and I can find nothing in the evidence to show that the Promoters of the Bill were not engaged in a commercial venture.
If that is the position, one is also entitled to notice that when this Bill started it contained rather remarkable

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compulsory powers which were to be given to this company. It was only in Committee in another place, after a good deal of discussion, that these powers were taken out of the Bill and it has assumed its present remarkable form. Though it contains powers to deal with roads and the like, it does not provide for compulsory purchase of any kind, that being struck out, but I understand that it is proposed that the junior partner, the Brighton Corporation, should do the requisitioning. I am not being unduly critical of all this. All I am saying is that if that is the position, one has to see clearly on what this proposition is founded that the yacht harbour, which we all want to see, is viable only if there is this commercial venture of pubs, restaurants, cinemas and what not on shore—there is what is called an "Oceanorama", which appeared at one point; I do not think the noble Lord who promotes the Bill knows what it is, but he told me that if it contained anything it might be a shark; however, I do not attach too much importance to that. Seriously, it is altogether too little to go on, if one is going to take that as sufficient evidence for the conclusion which I agree was reached on a planning application—not on the Bill—by the inspector and followed by the Minister.
We then come to the evidence before the Committee in another place, where the proceedings were rather unsatisfactory for this reason: that by the time the Bill had got to that stage, all the Petitions had disappeared except one, which had four signatures of gentlemen who were concerned only to see that they got sufficient compensation for their property. The only one who gave tongue was appropriately called Mr. Payne Nash. It is rather unfortunate to have a question of public importance of this kind considered without anybody arguing the main question—the question of viability. What is the real point in objecting to this proposal? Brighton, or some of Brighton at any rate, may like it. They are the right judges.
In addition to the point just made by my noble friend Baroness Summerskill, there is another which I regard as of great importance. We are going to have a Defence debate in the course of a few days and we are going to consider what we can afford in that particular matter.
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We are considering a whole lot of other social services, too, and the question of private expenditure. That is why there has been a squeeze. I am not saying "Right" or "Wrong" about any of this. I am simply saying that it is a question of grave public importance whether we should spend large sums of money and find the labour and materials at a time when this country is not altogether free from difficulties and feels that it has to cut down on defence expenditure.
We had a White Paper on Town and Country Planning the other day which stressed that at present planning was not sufficiently connected with economic considerations. This is a case in point. This Bill authorises expenditure of a large sum of money, which will provide some employment, which probably will be seasonal and which may or may not be productive, in the South of England at a moment when we are trying to get full employment in other parts of the country. Looked at from the broad economic point of view, I should think that this was very doubtful wisdom. It may be the sort of error that the proposed changes in town and country planning are intended to obviate.
This question ought not to be a Party matter. I very much doubt if it is. I have always understood from noble Lords that they accepted that planning in this country in its present perhaps rather narrow sense ought to be closely linked with the economic plans of the country as a whole. That is what makes me doubtful about the wisdom of this Bill. This is a matter of real national importance far beyond the competence of a local authority, however competent they may be within their sphere. I assure your Lordships, who know that I have been somewhat critical of our powers and activities in this House, that I have never in any way whatever criticised the powers and activities on Private Bills. On the contrary, I think they are necessary; in practice they work well, and this is a case where they ought to be exercised to meet what I can hardly call an error but a certain lack of evidence. I would appeal to your Lordships to take this matter not as a Party question, not as any question about Brighton or a yacht harbour, but as a question of whether it is really in the best interests of the country at the moment that this amount of money should be spent upon the inshore works of Brighton,

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upon a plea, most tenuously supported by the evidence, that without them they cannot get the yacht harbour.
8.18 p.m.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, when the Member of Parliament introduced this Bill in another place, he branded all those who opposed it as "carpetbaggers". Not knowing the meaning of the word, I looked it up in the Concise Oxford Dictionary and found it to mean: "A political agitator unconnected with a district". So I stand before the House as a self-confessed carpetbagger, ready to speak against this Bill, because I consider it a political and planning blunder. I love Brighton. There is so much to enjoy and of interest there: the sea, with the marvellous downland behind it; the town, with its historic buildings and beautiful architecture. As I have not been there for some years, I went down for the day last Sunday. I walked along the stretch of green grass along the top of Black Rock and looked at the coast line. I reflected on what the Brighton Marina Company was proposing to build on the half-mile of coast line beneath Black Rock, half a mile along and one-third of a mile out to sea. And I came to the conclusion that, before we start building and developing, we should cherish what is still un-spoilt.
The Bill has as its professed first object the building of a marina—the modern fancy name for a boat harbour. Incidentally, I think that to-day's Guardian states that Allied Land, which has 74 per cent. of the money, has said that it is not particularly interested in the yachting side of this project. No-one who is against the vast development project outlined in the Bill is against the building of a marina. We are 100 per cent. for it, because we know that there is a great and growing need for a safe boat harbour. But we find it a little difficult to understand why a rich town like Brighton, perhaps with a bit of help from the Treasury, cannot find the money to build it. I have a good deal of sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, who pointed out that France is so much better at these things than we are. If there is a great need for a marina why cannt we get the
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money for it? But what is really incomprehensible to me is that a project which would take ten years to build, and would cost up to £15 million, should be undertaken in order to make a marina which might cost one-fifth of that amount.
My Lords, let us be clear about this Bill. The Brighton Marina Bill is not only about a boat harbour; that is the least of it. The company is not proposing to turn an open beach into a marina: it is proposing to put up a great density of buildings on a beach: building, in fact, a township there; planting a complex of buildings upon the foreshore—ice rinks, restaurants, pubs, luxury hotels, houses, flats, and, last but not least, a casino. The handsome brochure we were sent has it all set out on the 106-acre site. As well as having to consider whether such a development is desirable, we have to consider whether there is any need for such a development in Brighton itself. There is ample entertainment in Brighton—some in excess of demand—and luxury flats in Brighton stand empty.
This is the first instance in this country of a slice of the foreshore—half-a-mile of it, as I have said—being taken over by a private company, and, as my noble friend Lady Summerskill said, it is a most menacing precedent. It is also of national importance and concern. It can be the forerunner of similar enclosures and on-shore developments. In the past, some Brighton hotels have tried to enclose the foreshore for their residents, and have been defeated. This scheme, if permitted, will be the green light for reversing these decisions.
The company which is seeking to promote this large development appears to be quite respectable, but with the possibility of planting casinos around the coast of Britain, what is to prevent the Mafia casting a predatory eye on some beauty spot and proceeding to develop it on a grand scale, on the excuse of building a marina? I have never been a glutton for nationalisation, but I would put every inch of our coastline under public ownership. It seems ironical that the Labour Member of Parliament who introduced this Bill in another place is reputedly a Left-Winger; yet this Bill gives wide, monopolistic powers to a private company to make profit out of a

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public foreshore. We are told that just to build a yacht harbour would not be viable. No hard evidence, as has been said already, is given for this—no figures whatever. We are simply told that, in order to spend £3 million on a marina, about £12 million must be spent on development. Perhaps businessmen are clairvoyant. I am not; and I cannot believe this.
If this development is necessary or desirable merely in order to build a yacht harbour, it should be done by the municipality. But I do not think it is right even for a corporation to enclose a part of the foreshore. After all, local authorities change their personnel; they come and go. We are told, among other things, that there is to be garage accommodation for 3,600 cars, and that on a fine sunny day 20,000 people are expected there. Yet the two most important problems, those of traffic and sewerage, are barely considered. It seems to me that what would be needed was not more luxury flats, but sewers. There is envisaged a provision for about 8,000 people to sleep on the boats. I venture to suggest that this is probably all that they will do. So far as I can judge, these yachtsmen will be dancing in the ballroom, drinking in the pubs, gambling in the casino, having all this entertainment in all these ways other than sailing. What do these earnest yachtsmen need with all these diversions?
So we should have more than half a mile of public beaches, under a beautiful, unspoiled cliff, permanently lost to the public. When Brighton Corporation bought these cliffs in 1930 they entered into all sorts of covenants not to build on or deface these cliffs. In this overcrowded island of ours, we should preserve and cherish the unspoiled beauty of our coastline. Some years ago, there was a film called Bad Day at Black Rock. I say that it will be a bad day for Black Rock if this grandiose funfair ever gets off the ground. So I very much hope that we shall accept the Instruction of my noble friend Lord Goodman. Let us have another serious look at this Bill, and weigh up what we are about to sacrifice—scenic beauty for private profit—and whether we cannot have a marina in Brighton without a poor man's Monte Carlo into the bargain.
8.28 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I can think of no occasion until to-day when my views have differed from those of my noble friend Lord Goodman, for whom, if I may say so, I have the greatest admiration and respect. But I am afraid that on this occasion I find myself differing from him. The only difference there has been in the past is that he has always been able to express my thoughts and views a great deal better than I have. I cannot for the life of me think that it is right to support a Motion to instruct the Select Committee in the case of the Brighton Marina Bill. This Bill has passed through all its stages in another place; the scheme has received approval from the local authority and the local planning authority, and from the Arts Council.
I thought it rather strange a fortnight ago, when the Bill was down for Second Reading in this Chamber, and it was postponed for a reason which I was unable to understand at the time, and which I do not think many other noble Lords understood. I can now perhaps say that I am afraid I understand it rather better. It seems to me—I am subject to correction, and the noble Lord on the Front Bench will not have any hesitation in correcting me, if necessary—that there have been certain local interests at work which have tried to postpone and upset a matter which has already received approval by all these people and bodies primarily concerned with it.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I think my noble friend the Chief Whip may be able to say more about this later, but as I understand it the postponement of the consideration of this Bill was due to the fact that when it was put down last week there was no reason to suppose that anybody was about to contest it on the Floor of the House. Reasons to suppose that they were about to do so then became apparent, and the day on which it was down was already very full of business.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord on what day it became apparent?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, as I remember it, and subject to later correction, about the day before or two days before.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, all I can say in reply is that at the time of

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the Second Reading we had no information on that point.
My Lords, not so very long ago certain Members on this side of the House received some stricture, albeit of the most friendly nature, for seeking to disagree with the proposals of the planning authorities in certain parts of the South Coast and other places in the North Country. It seemed to be suggested that it was not a matter about which your Lordships' House should concern itself, when democratic processes had already been decided and their requirements fulfilled. I have heard it said—not this evening in this Chamber—that the Brighton Marina scheme is the brain-child of a couple of local garage proprietors, backed by Canadian and American finance emanating from some unnamed gambling fraternity. So far as I have been able to ascertain—and I have made careful inquiry—no such American gambling interest is involved. In the first place, I can see nothing wrong in being a garage proprietor, and in fact during a fairly lengthy life, concerned almost exclusively with business, I was once a garage proprietor myself, and I certainly did not regard this as a kind of naughty enterprise. It constituted my very first venture in business on my own account, and it proved a successful stepping-stone to somewhat wider interests.
So far as the financial backing for the scheme is concerned, I understand that the money for this is available in the City of London, and the only Canadian slant I can find which may attach to it is the fact that one of the partners in the issuing house which has been concerned with the enterprise is Canadian born. He has lived nearly all his life in this country, and served throughout the last war, partly in a Japanese prisoner of war camp, when he was acting as a member of the Royal Engineers in the British Army. He is a fellow-director of mine in one company, and also a personal friend. It is, in fact, as has been said, one of the London-based property companies that is willing to support the scheme.
So far as any criticism may lie relating to the enclosure of part of the foreshore, I think it is necessary to be aware of the topographical peculiarities of this piece of the coast. There is no easy way down to the beach at the Black
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Rock end of Brighton. In fact, there is not really any beach. There is a series of rock promontories and pinnacles, and so far as I am aware the only thing that ever goes along there at the present time is sewage. As I recall it, the sea comes up to the cliff, and when the tide goes down the rocks stick out of the sea and the sewage goes out beyond the rocks and discharges into the deep water.
I understand that under the scheme it is agreed to preserve the undercliff wall above the beach. I remember this bit of the coast being a place to which one was always very careful to give a wide berth in sailing in these waters. It seems to me that nothing but good can come from building a marina in a place which can provide no other useful amenity. The plans have been most carefully drawn and have received, as I have already said, full support from the the local authority and Parliament. Speaking as an ex-Commodore of a small yacht club, I feel that sailing activities should be encouraged. So far as a gambling casino is concerned, although I am told that nothing of the kind has so far been included, there is nothing illegal in a casino in these days and, surely, if one were going to provide a casino the natural habitat for such a facility would seem to be Brighton. I am very sorry indeed to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, but I hope very much that this Instruction will be resisted, and that the Bill may receive a Second Reading and proceed through its normal stages to the Statute Book.
8.35 p.m.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I must disagree with the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, because he does not think we should accept Lord Goodman's Instruction. I think that the noble Viscount feels that the whole of this matter has been gone into by the proper democratic processes. It seemed to me that the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, demonstrated to us beyond any possible doubt—and he was backed up by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison—that the evidence has not really been looked at at all.
I am very suspicious about this Bill. It proposes to do something which has never been done before: to enclose a public foreshore for private development. I may be naïve, but I cannot help thinking that something very "hot" is being

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done under our noses; and nothing that has been said in another place, or in the Report by the Minister, has dissuaded me from this -view and from the suspicion I have. I think that if only to demonstrate the position, possibly to people like myself, who suspect that this is a racket, there is very good reason for having this Instruction. It is not unreasonable for me to suppose that a racket is going on when, in fact, it appears to me that the real purpose of this Bill, under the cloak of getting a marina, is to get public land for private development. This seems to me a most monstrous thing.
I do not mind a bit how good the development is in itself. I am prepared to believe that the architects who have drawn it up are very good ones and that the scheme is, as the Minister's inspector says, bold, imaginative and attractive. It may be all these things. It may fit in very well with the Regency terraces; it may overcome all the problems of traffic and of sewage. But this is neither here nor there; it has nothing to do with it. This is land, or so it seems to me, that should not be developed at all.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, pointed out that when the Brighton Corporation bought this land many years ago they entered into the most rigorous restrictive covenants as to their behaviour in regard to development of this land. Similarly, Governments of all shades in the past decade have been saying that above all else we must try to preserve our coast. The National Trust has just embarked upon this great operation "Neptune". All the local authorities concerned—those of Sussex, Kent and the South of England coast—have been saying (I forget their actual words) that above all else we must preserve this coast. I do not know how many thousand miles of coast we have in this country. It may be something like 2,000. But, after all, here it is proposed to develop half a mile of it. Well, where do we stop? Sooner or later we are going to turn the whole of this country into one urban sprawl, and the same applies to the coast. I think that where it is proposed to do something of this nature—as I say, it has never been done before—the closest scrutiny is required to show why it should be done. And I have heard
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no reasons as to why it should be done. One of the principal arguments is that a marina would not be viable unless it had this background development. Very well then. If that is so, what about the argument that there is such a pressure for marinas? I accept the fact that there is a pressure for marinas. But if that is so, why cannot they support themselves?
Again, the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, pointed out that there is conflict of evidence as to how much it costs to keep a boat. I do not know. I have never sailed in one in my life, though I am only too delighted that my children and friends should. But this conflict over costs of keeping a boat does not alter the fact that if there is a demand, the yachtsmen can pay for it themselves. There is also the argument put forward (I cannot believe that this is true) that yacht owners must be—I will not say subsidised, but supported by expropriation from the public: because this is, in fact, what it amounts to.
It seems to me that the strongest point is neither of those two arguments, but that in fact the new company is not really interested in the marina at all. The noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, drew our attention to a statement that appeared in the Guardian to-day. May I plug the point? It was that one of the spokesmen for this holding company, with its 210 subsidiaries, said that they were not primarily interested in the marina side of the project at all. If that is so, and if there is reason to suppose that a marina is not viable without this development in the background, I want very much better reasons for it than have been given to me. Therefore I warmly support the noble Lord's Instruction, and I hope that the rest of your Lordships will do so, too.
8.40 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I am strongly in favour of this Bill, and I shall try to explain why. I shall not go into the economics of it, because I leave that to people with brains, such as the noble Lord, Lord Goodman. I am not qualified to do that, but what I want to do is to say something about some of the objections which have been raised. First, there is the question of the enclosing of the shore at all. The noble Baroness,

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Lady Summerskill, spoke very strongly about the joys of walking along the shore and thinking to herself that it would all soon be enclosed. One can sympathise to a certain degree, if it happens to be a part of the shore with which one is familiar, but one has to remember that for the shore that the Marina is to take away it is going to give it back one hundred times, judged in terms of public enjoyment and pleasure. There are hundreds of miles of our coast where one can go and just sit on the beach, or paddle or make sandcastles, or do other things like that, but sailing is becoming an increasingly popular sport. After all, it is not so long since sailing was purely the rich man's sport, and this Marina will bring it within the reach of all.
As to the question of enclosure by private ownership, the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, spoke quite strongly against that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Henley. Am I to gather from what they said that they would have had no objection to the enclosure of the beach had it been done by the Brighton Council? If so, I cannot see that there is any real objection. The enclosure is there, and who owns it—whether it be private or public owners—does not seem to me to matter very much.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I should like to remind him that I said I would think it just as wrong for Brighton Corporation to enclose that particular bit of foreshore as for a private company to do so.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I am very glad to hear the noble Baroness say that, but one has to remember, too, that this particular part of the shore is of no value to seaside visitors in the way of sitting on the shore or enjoying the pleasures of the sea. I should like to read an extract from the report of the Brighton Corporation. This is a description of that particular part of the shore:
"The comparatively small part of the foreshore which will be lost to the public by the construction of the Marina is not one of Brighton's better beaches. It is rock-strewn and of little attraction and use to bathers, and its loss can have no adverse effect on the town's available seaside facilities for both residents and visitors,"
That seems to me to be pretty convincing evidence that the enclosure is not
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going to be a great loss to seaside visitors, and that they will gain a great deal more by what is going to be put there, as I hope to point out to your Lordships.
Sailing, for people who live inland, is rather a problem, because one has to pay for one's mooring—I am speaking in terms of the present, not when the Marina is constructed—and one perhaps has to travel a long way to find a mooring. However, when the Marina is there, the mooring will be extremely reasonable; thousands of people will have access to it, and it will offer other facilities besides sailing. Here I come to the other objection which was raised, as to whether the ancillary buildings are necessary. I consider personally that they are necessary, because when people go to the seaside very few of them go down just for the purpose of having a sail. If they do, they are probably members of some yacht club somewhere else, and that does not refer to the general public. The general public, when they go to the sea, generally go down for a week or a fortnight, and they want accommodation. They want entertainments for their children, they want some ways in which to spend the evenings, they want their various other amenities besides the actual sailing, and that is why this Marina will be so ideal. They will find their hotels, car parks, theatres, restaurants and many other things which will make their visit not only a matter of mere sailing but also of recreation for their children. There is a swimming pool there—
LORD HENLEY: And accommodation for their wives in every port.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, accommodation for the wives, exactly, though I should have thought that possibly the singular was more usual in this country. Therefore I think if one were to have, as has been suggested, just a marina—in other words, just the harbour enclosure and the yacht moorings—what would happen? People would go down there; they would overcrowd the town of Brighton; they would find it very difficult to get accommodation; and they would have very little to do without a long walk during the evenings—in other words, it would not be anything like as successful. I think very few people

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would be likely to patronise it. However, with the ancillary buildings, these will not only complete the entertainment side of it, but they will do an immense amount to help to pay for the scheme, which of course is among the most important things. I quite understand the uneasiness on the part of some that this is not going to prove a viable proposition, and that perhaps there may be local objections. In fact I have not heard of any local objections so far. Brighton Corporation is in absolute favour of it. But, in any case, when the Bill is examined by the Select Committee any particular objections that may be raised will be thoroughly examined.
8.50 p.m.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, may a Brighton resident have a word towards the end of this debate?—and I apologise that I did not put my name down on the paper. I do not think I should have endeavoured to say anything at all had it not been for many of the things said during the course of the debate. I am proving what my noble friend Lord Mitchison said, that this is not a Party question at all, for I find myself in opposition to every member of my own Party who has spoken, with the exception of my noble friend Lord Addison, and I am right behind the Bill. Perhaps a man who lives down in Brighton has some right to say why he is in favour of the Bill. I am not a yachtsman, I am not an architect, I am not a surveyor, I am not a financier and I am not a lawyer, and the probability is that I shall never live long enough to see this scheme completed. I am just someone who thinks that this is an imaginative scheme, a great scheme that is going to add tremendously to the attraction of the South Coast in that particular area. I believe that this is a greater concept for a seaside resort in Britain than we have ever so far experienced, and it may well be that when completed it will be something better even than many of the resorts of a similar character in different parts of the country.
I repeat—the noble Lord, Lord Teynham started with this and other people have mentioned it, but it cannot be said too often—this scheme is welcomed by the people of Brighton. This scheme is welcomed by thousands upon thousands
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of people in Brighton, and people outside Brighton who are regular visitors to Brighton. It is welcomed and blessed by the Borough Council. It received the blessing of the Ministry inquiry. It went through its stages in another place and has reached your Lordships' House. Are we, a few people in this House to-night, in view of all that, prepared to say, "You must not go on with this scheme?" I heard, "Yes" from behind. We have no right at this stage—certainly no right to turn down the Bill on its Second Reading.
I want to say as a resident of the area that I have the deepest possible sympathy for some people who live in those gracious regency houses in Kemp Town very close to this spot. I can appreciate their anxiety, their individual anxiety, about an interference with their lovely, gracious surroundings. Everybody can appreciate that. But they are not the only people who live in Brighton and they are not the only people who come down to Brighton. I say with very great respect to my two noble friends, the two noble Baronesses who have spoken, that this objection has been a little exaggerated, and perhaps I should not be very unfair if I called it a bit hysterical.
My noble friend Lady Summerskill—and the whole House knows the respect I have for her—talks in an emotional sense in the way she has spoken to-night, and very rightly and justifiably, but when she talks about the quiet oasis of Brighton I have to laugh. Does she know Brighton? Let us get down into the centre of Brighton some night at the weekend and talk about a quiet oasis. I just do not understand it. Fun fairs? Will my noble friend show me where in the plan the Fun Fair is mentioned? This is not going to be the Blackpool Fun Fair and Pleasureland; this is going to be a dignified erection, according to the plans I have read. Like my noble friend, Lord Mitchison, I, too, have read all about the report of the public inquiry. I am not speaking without having gone deeply into it.
When we talk about spoiling the coastline, as the noble Lord, Lord Somers, said, I would point out that you cannot walk down there. There are great rocks which you have to scramble over, trying to find the odd shrimp, and that is all there is down there. People cannot bathe

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there; people cannot boat there. If they attempted to swim when the tide was in on that section of the coast they would be broken to pieces by the rocks. Why did Brighton Corporation build a great swimming pool just near that point? Because people could not swim in the sea because of the rocks just to the East, and so they built a very beautiful swimming pool. So that is the position.
And how much is to be taken? From what we hear we might have been dealing with the taking over and erosion of the whole of the South Coast of England. At the most, I will accept that it is half a mile—800 yards. The White Cliffs of Dover, which we love to see as we come in on the boat or aeroplane, are repeated along that stretch of Coast, but nobody is talking about taking over all those white cliffs. The suggestion is that something should be placed there, occupying about 800 yards of these many miles, and there will be plenty of white cliffs left, even if this scheme goes through.
So far as the Instruction is concerned, I could not care less whether that Instruction is carried to-night. All I am concerned about is getting the Second Reading, which I feel sure the House will give to-night. I regard the Instruction as far too limited. The noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees, has told us this evening—and his Motion is on the Order Paper—that it can go to a Committee, and the Committee can consider anything applicable to the scheme. I suggest, with respect, that Lord Goodman's Motion for an Instruction is unnecessary.
May I mention the question of viability? What has not been mentioned this evening is the fact that about five years ago, or something like that, the idea was put to the Brighton Corporation that they themselves should make a marina—just a yacht harbour—at a point very close to the one we are discussing. The Brighton Corporation, I thought at the time mistakenly, decided not to do it. It may well be we should never have had this bother if Brighton Corporation had gone ahead, and that might have been all right—I agree with my noble friend. But they turned it down because they felt it could not possibly be viable and it would be a heavy burden on the ratepayers of Brighton. Is anybody going to suggest that the ratepayers of Brighton are going to set out to help yachtsmen
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to come to a place in Brighton, without other facilities which could bring some profit to the town of Brighton and help relieve the rates? This is why it was turned down: because it was regarded as non-viable.
One last word—and perhaps my noble friend Lord Teynham could help me on this. I have one great reservation, as to the approach roads and exit roads. We have seen and read a lot in regard to what might be done so far as roads to and from the marina are concerned. But in my view nothing less than a dual-carriageway road from the tunnel underneath the promenade road from the marina, across the Downs, coming out somewhere near Patcham, four miles away, and joining up with the dual-carriageway of the London—Brighton road, will be sufficient. If that is not done, we are in for a bad time, with the weight of traffic that is pouring into Brighton these days without the marina. If we add the marina to that, it will be a case of confusion confounded.
Therefore, I should like some more satisfaction in regard to these roads and what they will be like. I know this is not the Promoters' problem; it is the local authority's problem. It is asking a local authority to spend a lot of money in approach roads. This is my reservation. I should like some assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, that this matter is being given attention and that there will be some solution. I said at the beginning that I did not intend to speak on this Bill and in this debate. I was drawn to my feet by what, with the deepest possible respect to people whom I love, I could not but regard as very much of a tremendous exaggeration about this situation.
9.3 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I want to raise just one point. I have no interest at all in this scheme, and I have studied the maps and other things only to-day. I give it my support, however, because I think it is a good and imaginative scheme. What worries me is that the Lord Chairman of Committees, who knows much better than I do, has told us that there were no objectors to this Bill. I have in my time, sat on a good many Select Committees in this

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House, and have always thought that when you went up to a Select Committee you heard the objections to the Bill and reported back to the House whether or not the Bill should be altered, giving recommendations. But we have been told to-night that no objections to this Bill have been lodged, and that all parties, including the Minister, the Brighton Corporation, the Fine Art Commission, all give their blessing to the Bill. In those circumstances, I really do not see what a Select Committee has to do.
We were also told by the Lord Chairman of Committees that it would not be fair to the Select Committee to ask them to say whether this precedent would affect other areas; they could decide only whether it would be right to affect Brighton. We are told that this project is to include only half-a-mile of the foreshore. This is a precedent. But the people locally want it; they have not objected to it. It seems to me that only a few noble Lords in this House wish to object to it. There will be all the expense of a hearing before the Select Committee, with learned counsel appearing for the Promoters explaining all the points to the Select Committee. I think that the House should take a decision on Second Reading, and that the Bill should go to the Committee on Unopposed Bills. However, the Lord Chairman of Committees thinks that it should go to a Select Committee. It seems to me that that is going to involve a great deal of extra expense in regard to a scheme which is wanted locally, and in regard to which no local objections have been raised. I think it ought to be passed by the House to-night on Second Reading.
9.5 p.m.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, I did not intend to speak either, but I may say that I have a connection with this stretch of coast which is unique, because I lay in a hospital bed looking down on to this little patch for nearly two years, a long time ago; and even in those days there was a sewer. This experience qualifies me, I think, to speak on this subject to-night as well as anybody I have heard so far, except perhaps my noble friend Lord Goodman. I should like to ask a few questions. Can anybody tell me when the shares were transferred from the Cohens to the new company?
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Did the Cohens sign with the passing of the Bill in another place? Does anybody know?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, on or about March 22, 1967, as I understand it. The Cohens retained a 24 per cent. interest, but let go 76 per cent. which is in the hands of the Allied Land Investment Company, which has 210 other subsidiaries.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, that is a sufficient reason for me to support my noble friend Lord Goodman. I come on to the next question, to see whether I can reinforce that point. Why was responsibility for the application for compulsory purchase powers foisted on to the local authority? Perhaps somebody will tell me that? There is no answer. Perhaps my noble friend Lord Kennet was keen to dash to his feet to answer the second question. I have not finished yet. At any rate—
LORD KENNET: My Lords, if the noble Lord would give way for a moment, I dashed to my feet because the noble Lord dashed to his seat.
LORD RHODES: Fair enough! It is a case, or could be, I suppose, of musical chairs. I should like an answer to that question. But from what I have heard of the argument, it is a valid point that there should be further inquiry into the position of this scheme. It stands out to anybody who knows the area and has anything to do with local authority work. When one considers how little inquiry has been made into these matters, it is only a modest request that we should know more. I really do not know why the passion of those who are keen on this Bill should carry them as far as it has. At this time, when we have facing us the needs of the economy and the necessity for a more realistic approach to the way we live, the spending of money on grandiose schemes of this sort, at a time when the economy is tightening its belt, is absolutely crazy and mad. If by our action to-night we can restrain or put a bit of a brake on expenditure of this kind for this kind of purpose, I, for one, shall be proud to take part in it.
9.10 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I should like to say that I am not against the Marina per se. I am not against

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the idea of the casino; I am not against the architecture. From what I have seen of the brochure it is well designed and sounds an exciting project. However, I have grave doubts about the economic costing of it. I understand from great friends of mine who live in Brighton that it does not stand up to examination, and that it seems doubtful that the whole scheme will be economically viable. In fact, I have fears that it may be a "white elephant". One remembers the watering places on the coast of Normandy which used to be, so fashionable thirty or forty years ago. I went through some of them a few weeks ago and saw the decaying casinos, the deserted plages, the grass growing through the concrete, the closed up hotels, and so on.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord has not examined the very flourishing marinas which there are on coasts abroad.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am well aware that there are very flourishing marinas, but I am by no means confident that this particular one is being put in the right place. On the other hand, I think this is the business of the Corporation of Brighton; they have approved the scheme. It is also the business of the company which intends to promote it. If all concerned have confidence in it, I think it should be allowed to proceed—
LORD HENLEY: The whole point is that we have no confidence in either of the two parties.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me to develop my argument for just a little longer, I think he will see the conclusion to which I am coming. What concerns me is the fact that they are going to close the foreshore. This will be a very dangerous precedent. The British Isles is one of the few countries in Europe where the foreshore is free. We all know that in many Mediterranean countries one has to pay quite a lot to go on a beach. Then, when one gets on the foreshore, one has to have a cabin and an umbrella, and this can cost a great deal. That is the kind of thing that is going to happen here. We are told that it is only half a
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mile in extent, but that is a considerable extent.
I am concerned that if this kind of thing starts in one area, it may very well spread to others round the whole of our coastline; so that soon, in a few years, instead of many of our main watering places having free foreshore for the people of this country to enjoy, they will have to pay money to a corporation and walk through a turnstile in order to get on to it. For that reason, I consider that the whole scheme requires further examination, and therefore I support the Motion of my noble friend Lord Goodman.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question before he sits down in regard to his argument that this will cause a precedent for enclosing the whole of our foreshore? Does he consider that because a factory is built outside one town, that it is likely to be the case that every town in our country will be surrounded by factories?
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, if the House will allow me to reply, it was never my intention to suggest that the whole of the foreshore of this country should be enclosed. All I tried to examine was the fact that this might create a precedent in other well-known watering places.
9.14 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I rise to support the comments which were made by my noble friend. He has given an indication of his opposition to this idea, and I join him in that opposition. I do not think anybody in this House would be opposed to the idea of a marina. I believe that anything that can be done to encourage boating, sailing and so on, is good. But quite recently somebody very aptly described this proposition as being the sprat to catch the whale. The idea is not to promote the Marina, but to enclose the foreshore, and I believe that this House should be very concerned about the protection of a foreshore of this kind.
The noble Lord opposite made reference to a factory which might be developed outside some town. Would the mere fact of its establishment encourage the development of factories elsewhere? I hope it would. But the mere acceptance of that

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argument does not indicate that I support the enclosure of our beaches throughout the country. I want free and open beaches; I want free and open foreshores. Therefore, I feel it is right and proper that this House should give complete support to the fullest possible examination of this proposition.
To the building of a marina, I would say, "Yes". But this idea of the marina is supported by the idea of the establishment of casinos and the like. I have no objection to a casino if one is wanted, but that should not be used to support the marina. Let each stand on its own feet. I would support those in this House who say, "Yes, all right. Let us give every support we can to this Marina". But when it comes to the whole proposition of enclosing the foreshore of this country, that can establish a precedent, and precedent is important. What is done to Brighton to-day can be done elsewhere throughout this country. Therefore, I think it is the responsibility of this House to make absolutely sure that there is the fullest possible examination of this proposition before we say "Yes" to it.
9.17 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I am not an inhabitant of Brighton, but I rise to my feet because I have a number of friends who are inhabitants of Brighton, and I have been slightly surprised by certain noble Lords who have asserted with absolute certainty that the population of Brighton is completely in support of this Bill. This is by no means my experience. On the contrary, I have found that most of my friends in Brighton regard the proposal with horror, dismay and dislike. But, above all, they all say that they thought it would never be anything like a successful financial venture. Now it may be no part of the duty of Her Majesty's Government to warn people off bad economic enterprises, but I suggest that at a time like this, when money is so short, and when development is so limited, this becomes of serious national interest and, surely, we ought to see to it that money, wealth and effort are directed in a direction which is for the national benefit.
I believe I am not the first this evening to say that this particular development is one which cannot adequately recommend itself at a time of stringent planning.
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It is a capital development in the South and giving only part-time employment at best. As I say, it may be no business of Government in the ordinary way to advise private enterprise how it should dispose of its force and strength, but at a time like the present we ought to regard such schemes for expenditure with a very critical eye. I suggest, therefore, that the least we can do to-day is to support the direction to the Committee, with the hope that we shall get from them more certain advice as to what is the best thing to be done.
9.20 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, before I get into this subject, I should like to answer, in a little more detail if I may, a point made by my noble friend Lord Addison about the timing of the discussion of this Bill. I see that he is not here, but I think it would still be worth while to have it on the Record. I would assure him and the House that there is no question of a sinister plot involved in this postponement. The situation is this. Private Bills, if they are to be debated at all, are always postponed after the day on which they are first put down. They are postponed for two reasons. First, they stand early in the day's Business on the assumption that they are not to be debated. If it then appears that they are to be debated, they go later in the Business, either on that day or on another. Secondly, if they are not to be debated the Chairman moves the Second Reading pro forma. But if they are opposed, and are therefore to be debated, the Promoters will naturally wish to find someone else—that is, someone other than the Lord Chairman—to move the Second Reading, and this may take a certain amount of time. What we are talking about, therefore, is a normal procedure of the House, and conceals no plot.
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, asked two or three questions, I am not sure whether specifically of me or of anybody. I think they are probably more appropriate to the Committee, if the House sends the Bill there, but since he asked them on the Floor of the House perhaps I may say a few words about them. He has apologised for his unavoidable absence. He raised, first, the question of sewerage. The situation

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here is that the sewerage authority concerned have appointed consultants urgently to consider what is necessary in connection with this scheme. When they have considered what is necessary, the local authority will apply for loan sanction to do it, and my right honourable friend the Minister will then consider and approve, or not approve, that application for loan sanction in the normal way.
On the question of traffic (I am still addressing myself to the questions asked by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe), the noble Earl asked whether the roads will be ready for 3,600 cars. I would refer the House to paragraph 10 of my right honourable friend's Letter of Decision of last September, in which he said:
"Improved access"—
that is, improved access by cars to the marina—
"should come within stage one, with a new access early in stage two. The Council"—
that is, the Brighton Corporation—
"and the developers will be expected to have provided a road system comparable with drawing 23253"—
that is a particular drawing in the planning application—
"by the time the complete project comes into operation."
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, inquired also about the question of the buildings coming above the line of the cliffs behind them. No doubt the Committee, if this Bill is committed, will think fit to examine that point. I shall go no further on the Floor of the House than td say that the planning permission granted is subject to a condition in this respect, that the planning permission is binding and that the Promoters of the Bill do not challenge the view that the development should not overtop the cliffs.
My Lords, this is a project for which my right honourable friend the Minister has given planning permission. That is not all. He gave his planning permission in full knowledge of the fact that a Bill would come before both Houses of Parliament and that certain other steps would have to be taken by the Promoters before the development could go ahead. I shall refer to them later. The planning permission is one stage out of at least four. It was given in the knowledge that remaining
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stages would have to be carried out; and the planning permission was given on planning considerations. The planning permission was given on a call-in. The application was made to the Brighton Corporation, the planning authority, and my right honourable friend called it in for his own decision. An inquiry lasting nine days was held in January and February last year. The inspector recommended that outline planing permission—and we are talking throughout about outline planning permission—should be given, subject to certain conditions. The Minister accepted the inspector's recommendation and gave planning permission in September last year.
I should like to remind the House of the conditions which have not been mentioned—or only rarely—in the debate. There are six in number. The first was that means of access to the site, and the design and external appearance of the buildings, should be as may be agreed with the local planning authority or, in default of agreement, as shall be determined by the Minister; second, no building shall be of a height greater than the level of that part of the cliff top immediately North of the site; third, that operations for carrying out the development should begin not later than six years from the date of this permission; fourth, that each part of the site and each building indicated in the relevant plan should be used for the purpose stated in respect of it in the accommodation schedule submitted with the application, and for no other purpose; fifth, that no dutch or other auctions should take place on the shop premises included in the development; and, sixth, that provision for the parking of 3,600 cars should be made in accordance with the scheme to be agreed with the local planning authority before any work on the site will begin. These conditions will no doubt form part of the considerations of our Committee if we commit this Bill to it.
The main reason for the promotion of the present Private Bill was, I understand, the need to secure Parliamentary authority to interfere with public rights of navigation and to enclose the foreshore. As first deposited, the Bill itself authorised the compulsory acquisition of the land required for the scheme; but these powers were struck out in the House of

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Commons Select Committee. What happened was that the Bill was debated on Second Reading and approved after a Division. It was considered in the Select Committee, when there were petitioners, private individuals whose property would have been subject to the compulsory acquisition which was at that time in the Bill. The Select Committee did not hear these petitioners because, after hearing the Promoters, the Committee decided as a matter of principle to delete the clauses authorising the compulsory acquisition of and, and this, naturally, met the petitioners' case. Subject to this deletion, the Bill was allowed to proceed and was debated on consideration in the Commons and was approved without a Division. Since the deletion of the compulsory acquisition powers in the Bill Brighton Corporation have resolved themselves to seek any power of compulsory purchase which may be necessary to see the scheme through. In order to do this they will, of course, have to satisfy the Minister, or Parliament, that they should be given these powers. As I am at present advised, these powers would be required only for roads and should be within the Corporation's powers as a highway authority.
As has been repeatedly stated during the debate, this Bill has the support of the Brighton Corporation who could expect to get a considerable rate income from this scheme over and above rent from the leasing of the foreshore. I understand that, under an agreement with the promoting company, the Brighton Corporation will also get a share of the profits in the operation of the scheme equal to 30 per cent. of all profits in excess of 12 per cent.
The question of precedents in the enclosure of the foreshore has been repeatedly mentioned and the Lord Chairman of Committees has told the House that this question is appropriate for discussion on the Floor of the House. I shall therefore lay before your Lordships certain information about precedents. There have been numerous Bills which have authorised enclosures and the use of the foreshore, and they have been mainly for docks and harbour development. Most of those docks and harbour developments have been for public harbours. The noble Lords, Lord Merthyr and Lord Henley, engaged in a
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discussion earlier on this point. The answer is that those docks and harbours which have given rise to the foreshore enclosure have been both public and private, though mainly public. During the last ten years there have been seven Bills where the developer concerned has been a company operating for private profit. They have been as follows: the British Petroleum Trading Act 1957; the Esso Petroleum Company Act 1957; the Angle Ore and Transport Company Act 1959; the Regent Refinery Company Act 1962; the Brighton Skydeck Act 1965; the Crude Oil Terminals (Humber) Act 1965 and the Gulf Oil Refining Act 1965.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, would my noble friend indicate the location in those cases, and the purposes of the constructions?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Yes, the purposes.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, as to the location, except in the cases where it is evident through the Title of the Act, I am afraid that I cannot inform the noble Lord. The purpose is, I think, apparent in most cases from the Title of the Act. It will leap to the comprehension of the House that all these measures, with one exception, were measures to do with the loading and unloading of goods of one sort or another.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, would my noble friend allow me to interrupt him? Am I to conclude that none provided for an "oceanorama", or a casino, or a marina?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I cannot answer with complete certitude that the Brighton Skydeck Act 1965 did not. It seems to me probable that the others did not.
I said earlier that this Bill is not the last stage in the approval by Government and Parliament of this development. If the Bill is passed, the company will still need a licence under the Building Control Act 1966, and an authorisation under the Harbours Act 1964, in order to get the project which is before us. These would provide economic controls over the proper deployment of economic resources at the moment, the question of which has been raised by more than one noble Lord

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during the debate. I think that the Building Control Act 1966 may be familiar to all your Lordships, but the Harbours Act 1964 may be less familiar. It requires that any harbour development costing more than half-a-million pounds shall be subject to an authorisation. To sum up, I have told your Lordships some of the history and a few of the facts which have not come out. The Government would not wish to urge the House in either direction, either on Lord Goodman's Motion for an Instruction or on the Second Reading of the Bill.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, before the noble Lord resumes his seat, may I ask him this question? He made reference to Public and Private Acts relating to the enclosure of the foreshore. I wonder whether he can give us some indication—I am sure that he must know the answer—of how many miles of foreshore have been enclosed as a result of the Acts to which he referred?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I am sorry I cannot do that, but noble Lords will have in their minds a picture of an oil refinery and how much foreshore it encloses.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, indicated, when he was talking about compulsory purchase powers, that there might have to be an inquiry, so that the Government could be satisfied. Who would conduct the inquiry as the matter stands? Would it be the Select Committee, or who would have to satisfy themselves on this point?
LORD KENNET: My Lords, the application for compulsory powers to the Minister or to Parliament would follow the normal course of the law in this respect, the details of which I am afraid I do not have in mind at the moment.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the fact that compulsory powers would now have to be acquired by the Corporation for roads, but he did not mention the fact that compulsory powers would have to be acquired for the houses in Riflebutt Road, for the cemetery and things like that.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I think your Lordships will agree that we have had a very interesting debate, but I would say that very little has been heard about
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yachts and boats, and a great deal about finance and other things which are not the things for which this Bill was promoted. I have listened carefully to the speeches of noble Lords. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, made a very unworthy remark when he said that there might be something "fishy" in this Bill, and some "racket" behind it. I am sure that he does not really think that.
Before dealing with the instruction to the Committee, I should like to answer one or two points made in the debate. First, the question of pollution was raised by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. I can assure him that that is being very well taken care of and there will be no question raised on that. The noble Lords, Lord Goodman and Lord Mitchison, raised questions of finance. I would just say that full financial evidence was given at the nine day inquiry and I have no doubt at all that it will be given again before the Select Committee. I would suggest that the Select Committee is quite capable of examining all the matters that have been raised in the debate without any Instruction being passed to them and I would ask your Lordships to resist the Instruction to the Committee when put before your Lordships.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
9.38 p.m.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, it is for me formally now to move the Instruction. I think that it would be quite wrong if I inflicted at this hour anything in the way of a second speech, but I should like to make a few observations, I hope of a non-controversial nature. It is my hope that the House will accept the Instruction without a Division. The Instruction is designed to enjoin upon the Committee that this House feels that there are special circumstances relating to this Bill which require special and careful consideration. It is designed for nothing else than that.
I think that in the circumstances of this Bill it is a very important matter. The noble Lord, Lord Wolverton, thought there was nothing to refer to a Committee, and that the matter should be referred to the Committee on Unopposed Bills as there was no further issues that required discussion. If, having heard the debate this evening, he believes that,

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I can only reply in the famous words of the Duke of Wellington. When approached by a gentleman who said, "Mr. Smith, I believe", the Duke replied, "If you believe that, you will believe anything".
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, all I said was that there were no Petitioners. If there are no Petitioners, I do not see what a Select Committee can do. I should have thought that the whole House could decide.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for making the point I was anxious to make. Unfortunately, there is no Petition against this Bill. The reason, I understand (and I have only recently been concerned with the Bill), is that although there were Petitions in another place these were not automatically continued, and the persons concerned with the opposing of the Bill, who were not particularly supplied with wealth, resources or information about Parliamentary procedure, did not realise how indispensable it was that there should be Petitions against the Bill, so that counsel could appear before the Select Committee and represent the matter as fully and effectively as possible.
It is for that reason that it is especially important that this Bill should go before the Select Committee with an Instruction, so that they should clearly understand that the absence of Petitions does not mean that the Bill does not require this consideration. I am much obliged to the noble Lord for making this point. I do not want to make any other points. I do not want to join issue with anyone on the numerous matters raised. Having heard what we have heard to-day, having heard brought into relief and underlined the points of view of a number of people, we have a duty, I believe, to make it clear to the Committee that this
is a most important matter, on an issue of public importance, and in my view we shall discharge that duty by sending the Bill to them with an Instruction.
I should like to move an Amendment to the Instruction which stands in my name on the Order Paper, because I should like to accept the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that the last words, "and as a precedent for other areas", should be left out. I formally move, as an Amendment, that these words should be left out of the Instruction standing in my name. I think it is probably appropriate at this stage that I should ask the House to deal with that Amendment before I deal with the formal Motion.
Amendment to Instruction moved—
At end leave out ("and as a precedent for other areas").—(Lord Goodman.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the original Motion was:
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to which the Bill is referred to consider how far the works proposed to be authorised by the Bill, or other provisions of the Bill, go beyond what is necessary to provide a harbour for pleasure craft and whether they are desirable or not having particular regard to the unique character of Brighton and its environs, and as a precedent for other areas."
An Amendment has now been moved to leave out the words ("and as a precedent for other areas")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Question now is that the Motion, as amended, be agreed to.
9.47 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Motion, as amended, shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 31; Not-Contents, 23.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Goodman, L. [Teller.]

Popplewell, L.

Albemarle, E.

Henley, L.

Rhodes, L.

Annan, L.

Hurcomb, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Archibald, L.

Kahn, L.

Segal, L.

Baldwin of Bewdley, E.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Shepherd, L.

Bowles, L.

Mitchison, L. [Teller.]

Sorensen, L.

Champion, L.

Oakshott, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Falkland, V.

Peddie, L.

Strang, L.

Faringdon, L.

Phillips, Bs.

Summerskill, Bs.

Gaitskell, Bs.

Plummer, Bs.

Wade, L.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

NOT-CONTENTS

Abinger, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Redmayne, L.

Addison, V.

Greenway, L.

St. Just, L.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Somers, L.

Ampthill, L.

Kinnoull, E.

Strange, L.

Auckland, L.

Lindgren, L.

Teynham, L. [Teller.]

Balerno, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Vivian, L.

Caldecote, V. [Teller.]

Merthyr, L.

Wolverton, L.

Coleraine, L.

Morris of Kenwood, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative and Motion, as amended, agreed to accordingly.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, in moving this somewhat lengthy Resolution, I will only say that its purpose is to enable the Bill to be carried over to the next Session of Parliament. If the House agrees to this Resolution the necessary Message will be sent, asking for the agreement of another place to a similar Resolution. I beg to move.
Moved, That the promoters of the Bill have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon, in order to proceed with the Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the day before the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon up to that point be paid;
That such Bill shall be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the third day on which the House shall sit after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session;
That the proceedings on such Bill shall in the next Session of Parliament by pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages;
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply in the next Session of Parliament to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

GUILDFORD CORPORATION BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  ROAD SAFETY
  ROAD SAFETY