Sitting of 15 November 1966

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF POWER

    Fuel Distribution Costs
    Mr. Molloyasked the Minister of Power what steps will be taken to ensure that coal and fuel distributors do not unjustly increase prices during the period of severe restraint.
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Power if he is aware that the price charged for Multiheat fuel has been increased from 17s. 7d. per hundredweight to 19s. 2d. per hundredweight since August, whereas to recover the seasonal increase of 20s. per ton in pithead prices for domestic fuel and the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax the price should only have been increased to 18s. 9d.; and what action he will take to ensure that solid fuel merchants adhere to the Government's policy on prices and incomes.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Dr. Jeremy Bray): Through the agency of the trade associations, my right hon. Friend has recently written to all coal merchants about prices, and the Department will be discussing issues arising from the period of severe restraint with representatives of the trade in due course. I understand that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) is sending me details about the case mentioned in his Question, and I will make inquiries.
    Mr. Molloy: Will my hon. Friend appreciate that this is an extraordinarily serious matter, because during the period of severe restraint, if there should be any unjustifiable increases in coal and
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    fuel prices—and sometimes increases are erroneously said to be the fault of miners and the National Coal Board—if there is not severe restraint—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get on."] I know that this is not important to hon. Members opposite, but it is to working people—any unjustifiable increase would cause very great dissatisfaction indeed?
    Dr. Bray: We appreciate the seriousness of this matter. The response of the trade has been, by and large, encouraging.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the company which has imposed on its customers the increases mentioned in my Question is Messrs. Charringtons? Will he have discussions with this firm, and, if it does not agree to rescind that part of the increase which cannot be justified by the change from summer to winter prices and the Selective Employment Tax, will he give me an undertaking that an order under the Prices and Incomes Act will be made?
    Dr. Bray: We shall look into the case thoroughly.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been complaints about this matter from all over the country, and that as fuel is a basic charge, especially for those in the lower income groups, it is very important? There are also complaints about gas and electricity charges.
    Dr. Bray: It is precisely because of its importance that we have been giving the matter such close attention.

    Power Stations (Natural Gas)
    Mr. Albert Robertsasked the Minister of Power what further representations he has received arising out of the discussions that have taken place between the Gas Council and the Central Electricity Generating Board concerning the supply of natural gas to the electricity generating stations; and what reply he has sent.
    Mr. Raphael Tuckasked the Minister of Power what investigations he has made into the possibility and economic advantages of utilising the gasfields in the North Sea by piping the gas to electricity generating stations and converting it directly into electricity.
    Mr. Norwoodasked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the electricity supply industry seeking a share in the use of North Sea gas; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Marsh): I have in fact received no representations from any of the nationalised industries on the use of natural gas in power stations. As I informed the House on 2nd November, when the study being carried out by the Gas Council and the C.E.G.B. has been completed, the results will be carefully considered as part of the review of fuel policy which I am undertaking.
    Mr. Roberts: In view of the fact that about 70 to 80 per cent. of electricity is generated from conventional fuels, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a good deal of apprehension in Yorkshire and the mining districts that, having prepared for 25, 35 and 40 year programmes, what may be economic today could be uneconomic tomorrow? May I further ask the Minister—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Supplementary questions are getting long.
    Mr. Roberts: May I further put it to the Minister that there is a feeling in the country that there is a move towards the use of natural gas in the electricity industry? Will he—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This is too long.
    Mr. Marsh: I have said frequently in the past that, on the present basis, there is no reason for coal miners to be alarmed about the use of natural gas as an alternative. There are many problems involved in using it in this way. I agree with my hon. Friend's view about the need to see what the future position will be. That is exactly why I want to look at the matter as part of the review of fuel policy.
    Mr. Tuck: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the cheapest, safest and most effective way of utilising the gas fields in the North Sea is to pipe the gas ashore and convert it direct into electricity and feed it into the electricity grid and the super grid now in the course of construction? Would not this obviate the straddling of the country with vast
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    networks of gas mains and the costly and stupid competition between the two nationalised industries?
    Mr. Marsh: Much as I regret it, the answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is "No, Sir". First, one has to work out what the cost of natural gas should be before one can decide the best and most efficient way of using it. Secondly, we need to know how much of it we have before we decide the various ways in which we want to use it.

    North Sea Gas (Production Licences)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Power what percentage of licences for North Sea gas exploration has been granted to foreign and foreign-owned subsidiary companies.
    Mr. Marsh: Of the 90 production licences granted, 46 are held by foreign-owned, U.K.-registered companies; 36 jointly by foreign-owned U.K.-registered companies and U.K.-owned companies; and 8 by U.K.-owned companies. Foreign-owned interest in the 53 licences granted in 1964 amounts to about 70 per cent., and in the 37 licences granted in 1965 will amount to about 63 per cent. if the options open to the National Coal Board are fully taken up.
    Mr. Dalyell: Taking a long-term view, is this in the Government's opinion a satisfactory ratio?
    Mr. Marsh: This is the way it works out. The intention of all people involved in this was to get the natural gas exploited as rapidly as possible. Most of the oil companies are foreign-owned, and if we were to keep purely to British companies there would be great delay in exploiting it.
    Mr. J. H. Osborn: Is it not fortunate that a capital-hungry country is able to obtain capital for this purpose from abroad? What will the Minister do to encourage this trend to help him in this and in other fields?
    Mr. Marsh: The main purpose of the exercise is to be sure that we exploit all the North Sea gas reserves as rapidly, as completely and as quickly as possible. Certainly foreign companies provide investment, but that is not the purpose of

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    awarding the contracts. The purpose is to get as many people drilling as many holes as rapidly as possible.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power what provision is contained in the licences to exploit the oil and gas resources of the North Sea to enable the British Government and the licensees to end or determine the duration of the licence.
    Dr. Bray: The Government may revoke any existing licence if the holder fails to comply with its terms and conditions. After an initial period of six years at least half of each of the areas licensed reverts to the Crown. A licensee may determine the licence during his six-year initial term by giving at least one year's notice, and during the subsequent term of forty years by giving at least two years' notice.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister agree that it is of the utmost importance that he, as licensing authority, should retain powers to end these licences if the products are used to assist our Continental competitors instead of Britain's trade and industry?
    Dr. Bray: My right hon. Friend has complete control of the uses to which North Sea gas is put through the Continental Shelf Act.
    Mr. Ogden: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the terms of licences at present encourage companies to exhaust their funds within the terms of the licences they hold and that this might not be in the national interest?
    Dr. Bray: Forty years is a very long time, and we have had no proposals that the depletion period should be anything like as long as that.
    Mr. Corfield: Is it not true that the Continental Shelf Act does not give the Minister power to intervene where a developer wishes to use the gas in his own works for non-fuel purposes?
    Dr. Bray: Yes, but the fuel has to be landed in the United Kingdom, which is the point that my right hon. Friend is concerned with.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power how many licences to drill for oil and gas in the. North Sea he has
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    issued during the last 12 months and to whom; and what conditions he includes in those licences requiring the licensees to get supplies from and repairs to their rigs done in Great Britain rather than in foreign countries.
    Dr. Bray: 37 production licences have been granted during the last 12 months and details were, as announced on 24th November, 1965, placed in the Library. Licences do not include any condition requiring the licensees to go to any particular place for supplies or repairs. My right hon. Friend, however, has made it clear to operators that wherever possible orders should be placed in Great Britain and is satisfied that this request is being honoured.
    Mr. Hughes: Is not my hon. Friend aware that when one of these rigs was recently damaged repairs were effected on the Continent instead of being done by British industry? Will he see that that does not occur again?
    Dr. Bray: Yes. In this case the owners of Ocean Prince—the rig in question—made extensive but unsuccessful inquiries in the United Kingdom before going to Europe.

    Gas Advertising Costs
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Power if he will give details of the cost of the current High Speed Gas advertising campaign.
    Mr. Marsh: High Speed Gas is merely a phrase used in the general advertising of the gas industry. The industry has agreed to limit total expenditure on advertising to £3 million in the current financial year.
    Mr. Dance: Will the Minister give an assurance to the public that as a result of this expensive campaign there will not be a shortage of gas? Will he also bear in mind that it is rather significant that on the same day this half-page advertisement appeared another paper said:
    "Southern Gas Board stops sales of fires. Supply fears."
    Will the Minister give a categoric assurance to the nation that there will be enough supplies of gas, however hard the winter, to meet all requirements?
    Mr. Marsh: For the hon. Member to get my agreement to the last part of his question, he should have been more active on this subject a few years ago. Some of the plants might then have been laid down and we might have the capacity today to meet the demand. In reply to the second point, some forms of advertising are very valuable because they inform the customer of the choice that is available to him and help to build up desirable loads, such as off-peak electric heating, and get people to use current in a particular fashion.
    Mr. Speaker: Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport.
    Mr. Dance: Is not the Minister—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I did not call the hon. Member again.
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Why waste money advertising gas when there is no competition except against nationalised electricity or private enterprise fuel oil, which has to bear heavy taxation to subsidise these two moronic industries?
    Mr. Marsh: I must apologise for my last answer. Had I realised that the hon. and gallant Member was particularly interested I would have spent longer explaining the reply to him. The point which I was trying to make is that one of the purposes of this advertising is that it directs consumption to particular methods of consumption which are useful to the gas industry and the electricity industry generally by, for example, increasing the requirement for off-peak supplies. I would be prepared to discuss the matter further with the hon. and gallant Member.

    Steel (Imports)
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Minister of Power what estimates he has made of the value of the increase in imports of bulk steel when the 10 per cent. import surcharge is removed on 30th November, 1966; and what steps he is taking, in view of a world excess manufacturing capacity for steel, to ensure that steel is not dumped in this country.
    Mr. Marsh: The present growth of imports may be accentuated, but it is not possible to estimate the precise effect
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    of the removal of the surcharge. The industry is aware of the circumstances in which applications for anti-dumping action can be made.
    Mr. Osborn: Can the Minister state what has been the increase in the last two months, what discussions he had with Commonwealth countries, which have cheap raw materials and cheap energy, how much of this increase is coming from Iron Curtain countries, and whether he is aware that the European steelmakers envy our structure and would possibly like to see it punctured?
    Mr. Marsh: If the hon. Member says that the Europeans envy our structure, I presume that he means the E.C.S.C. pricing structure.
    Mr. Osborn: I mean the Iron and Steel Board pricing structure.
    Mr. Marsh: That is the point I am making. There was pressure earlier for an E.C.S.C. type of pricing structure, but this has now gone. People throughout the world have problems in this industry. I could not without notice give the figures for which the hon. Member asks, but I am in close contact with the industry on this subject to see what can be done.
    Mr. Wainwright: Will my right hon. Friend carefully consider the question of any imports of steel into this country? Will he also consider why these imports are coming in and what our steel industry is doing to prevent the necessity for them?
    Mr. Marsh: This has to be looked at as a world problem, and it is a very serious one. It is at the moment a problem of excess capacity throughout the entire world, and sooner or later, I think, all the different steel industries must reach a method of agreement in this field.
    Mr. Barber: In the light of the question by his hon. Friend the Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright), is the Minister aware that the increase in steel imports is not the consequence of any shortcomings of the British iron and steel industry, but is, as the right hon. Gentleman has rightly said, a world problem? Is he further aware that this is a matter of great concern to the industry? Will he give an assurance that if action is called for to deal with the increasing imports, it will be taken speedily?
    Mr. Marsh: I am certainly in very close contact with the industry on this subject and obviously have had, and am having, discussions with it. Wherever the blame lay in the past, one can only hope that the new procedures which we are adopting with the right hon. Gentleman's assistance in Standing Committee D will obviate these imports in the future.
    Mr. O'Malley: Since the imports of steel products are already running at a high level in a period of short-time working and falling order books in the home steel industry, will my right hon. Friend say why the Government have refused to put on selective import quotas? If they are not prepared to do that, what are they prepared to do?
    Mr. Marsh: The whole question of selective import quotas is a thorny one. We might be faced with problems in return. Certainly the Government will do anything which they feel to be of value in this field.

    Winter Fuel Supplies
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Minister of Power which area gas boards will have difficulty in meeting peak demands during a severe cold spell this winter; and what steps he proposes to take to reduce hard ship and production cut-backs to a minimum should there be severe weather conditions.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Minister of Power if he will give general directions, in the public interest, to the gas boards to see that gas supplies are available to meet public need during the winter months.
    Mr. Ogdenasked the Minister of Power (1) if he is satisfied that the national fuel and energy resources are now sufficient, and properly prepared, to meet the demands that might be made upon them in the coming winter, and if he will make a statement;
    (2) if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the National Coal Board to make preparations for the stockpiling of coal in areas away from the coalfields so that householders and industries in such areas will not be adversely affected by a shortage in the event of a severe winter.
    Mr. Higginsasked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied that national electricity
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    generating resources are sufficient to ensure that adequate supplies of electricity are available this winter; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Marsh: I have discussed winter prospects fully with the chairmen of the industries, including the steps that have been and are being taken to safeguard supplies. Broadly speaking the outlook is better than last winter, and with average winter weather demand should be met. Severe weather or poor plant availability could lead to shortage of some fuels.
    Mr. Osborn: If there are very severe weather conditions or poor plant availability, what action does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to mitigate hardship, and is the Winter Emergency Committee still in being?
    Mr. Marsh: On the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it is not customary to give details of Cabinet Committees and their availability. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There is nothing new about that, as right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will be aware.
    On the first point, we have taken a number of measures to examine the whole question of fuel supplies and studied questions of electricity grid supplies and coal stocks. These studies will enable us to take any alternative measures needed should there be combinations of difficulty.
    Mr. Ogden: What is the percentage of reserve plant which will be necessary to carry us safely through normal periods of severe winter weather such as we get, and when may we have that percentage of reserve plant?
    Mr. Marsh: That is a very difficult question. Obviously one has to decide a level at which one is prepared to take risks. Clearly the nation could not possibly afford to cover a once-in-a-hundred years winter. The electricity industry has done a great deal of work on this. It will aim for a 17 per cent. excess of capacity. There was a short-fall this year. We would hope to meet it next winter. From next winter on the position should be very satisfactory, apart from the odd freak once-in-twenty-five or thirty years winter.
    Mr. Higgins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the lack of capacity results in a power cut domestic meters do not reflect the full reduction in the amount of heat coming from domestic heaters and, consequently, people not only get a reduction in power but pay more? Is that the case, and what does the Minister intend to do about it?
    Mr. Marsh: That is a point which I have not had put to me before. In fact, cuts as distinct from voltage reductions are very rare. The industry does an extraordinarily good job.
    Mr. Fortescue: Since it is not normal to give details of Cabinet Committees, why was the Winter Emergency Committee announced with such a fanfare two years ago?
    Mr. Marsh: The hon. Gentleman must ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that question.
    Mr. Wainwright: Would my right hon. Friend take into account the possibility of a shortage of coal this winter, and will he say what he intends to do to remove the lack of confidence among employees in that great industry?
    Mr. Marsh: The great thing which would restore the confidence of employees would be to get through this winter with as few difficulties as possible. All the evidence that I have is that there should be; no global shortage of coal. In some higher grades of domestic fuel in some limited areas there could be shortages. It is a question largely of distribution. The over-all position for the coal industry is not one which gives cause for alarm.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Why is the Minister so hesitant about his estimates for next winter? Has he not taken into account the fact that in every preceding winter we have had full employment and this year the demand for gas, electricity and coal will largely be reduced by three-quarters of a million unemployed and a large number of under-employed on short-time working?
    Mr. Marsh: I do not think that those two hang together as much as that.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Of course they do.
    Mr. Marsh: The biggest threat to fuel supplies is the odd event like, for example,
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    difficulties of getting components delivered on time and getting plant constructed on time.
    Sir G. Nabarro: The right hon. Gentleman must do his homework.

    West Midlands (North Sea Gas)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Power when North Sea gas will be available to consumers in the West Midlands; and what will be the price compared with that of present supplies.
    Dr. Bray: Limited supplies should be available to the West Midlands Board next summer. These will provide an additional source of feedstock for the production of town gas to which the board's standard tariffs will apply. The board is also considering using some of the supplies of natural gas to carry out a pilot scheme for the conversion of a group of consumers to direct supply.
    Mrs. Short: My hon. Friend has not answered the last part of my Question. May I remind him that my constituents are very concerned about this? They are anxious to see plentiful supplies of cheap gas and they want to see some publicly-owned holes being drilled to get supplies and not only private enterprise holes.
    Dr. Bray: There are publicly-owned holes. Clearly, the question of price can only be dealt with at the time. In the case of the West Midlands, we are dealing with a pilot scheme. My hon. Friend will be aware that when a pioneer scheme was carried out at Canvey Island, there was a reduction in price of a penny a therm, but that is not necessarily a precedent for elsewhere.
    Mr. Barber: Will the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the general policy of the Government to supply North Sea gas in the first place to industry or to domestic consumers?
    Dr. Bray: That is a point which must depend on the price and quantity of gas available. We shall be in a position to deal with this when we complete our fuel policy review.

    Lord Melchett (Appointment)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Power why he appointed Lord Melchett as chairman of the present organising

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    committee and as the intended chairman of the proposed National Steel Corporation.
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Power what qualifications and aptitudes he took into consideration when appointing the chairman of the Steel Industry Organising Committee; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Marsh: I have appointed Lord Melchett because I am satisfied that his experience and capacity in industrial commercial and financial matters provide quite outstanding qualifications for these posts.
    Mr. Palmer: Would not my right hon. Friend accept that there is a great deal of first-class technical and administrative talent within the existing nationalised industries? Was it not possible to make an appointment from the public sector without going to financial circles? Does that not show a kind of inferiority on the part of public enterprise in the face of private enterprise?
    Mr. Marsh: No. There is no question of inferiority in this. One seeks the best people who, together, make a team for a board. There will be technical and scientific people on the National Steel Corporation. I thought that the chairman needed particular qualifications. If someone else had been choosing the members of the Board, different people might have been chosen.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: May I ask why this gentleman was appointed before the Bill has gone through Parliament? Why do Socialists ignore the rights of Parliament?
    Mr. Marsh: I am sure right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will be aware that there is an old Fabian motto about the inevitability of gradualness and eventually it will be law.
    Mr. Barber: Will the right hon. Gentleman not confirm that, whatever his wishes may have been, he had to go to the City of London and the private enterprise steel industry to find the best men?
    Mr. Marsh: There will be people on the Corporation who do not come from either the private steel industry or the City of London. It will be a balanced Board. On this Question, we are talk-
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    ing purely about the chairman, and his qualifications stand up to any sort of examination.
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Minister of Power what representations he has received regarding Her Majestys' Government's appointment of Lord Melchett as chairman of the Organising Committee for the steel industry.
    Mr. Marsh: Four from local Labour parties: four from members of the public.
    Mr. Roberts: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very strong feeling on this side of the House that Lord Melchett lacks the two essentials for this type of job: first of all, a thorough knowledge of the industry itself; and, secondly and even more important, sympathy with the aims of Socialist ownership?
    Mr. Marsh: As I am sure my hon. Friend will be aware, Lord Melchett has for some considerable time been a member of a Board of a nationalised industry. I should have thought that that did not show outstanding hostility to the principle of public ownership.

    Future Energy Resources and Prices
    Mr. Woofasked the Minister of Power if he will now made a statement on the prospects of British industry in the energy sector; and whether the progress in the development of nuclear power stations together with the increasing availability of power from North Sea gas supplies will result in cheaper sources of energy by the 1970s.
    Mr. Marsh: Competitively priced energy supply for British industry is a major consideration in the review of fuel policy. Progress in nuclear power technology and the North Sea gas discoveries are encouraging pointers, but I would hesitate at this stage to forecast price levels for the 1970's in view of the many and great uncertainties.
    Mr. Woof: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that everything adds up to intense competition with the need to achieve co-ordination by effective planning and direction of fuel and power resources? Would not he also agree that, in the review of the fuel policy, he should

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    so design things as to secure the maximum economic use of the nation's indigenous energy resources by providing a guarantee for coal production in order to maintain the structure of the mining industry and to avoid further disastrous contraction?
    Mr. Marsh: I agree with the need to use our fuel resources in the best possible way. The only way to do this is to look at them altogether to see how they act and interact on each other, and this is precisely the job that we are trying to do in this fuel policy review.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that gas prices in Scotland in the 'seventies are above the average for the rest of the country, as they are just now?
    Mr. Marsh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. I cannot say what the price of gas in Scotland will be in the 'seventies, but I am sure that we can rely on him to raise the matter again if he is not satisfied.

    Nationalised Industries (Diversification Projects)
    Mr. Patrick Jenkinasked the Minister of Power whether he will introduce legislation to oblige nationalised industries to prepare separate annual accounts covering the activities of diversification projects, and to set up an abitration tribunal to hear and pronounce upon any complaints of unfair competition or undue discrimination arising out of such activities.
    Mr. Marsh: No. Sir. In the case of the industries for which I am responsible, my powers under the nationalisation statutes to direct the form of the accounts are adequate and I see no need for any tribunal to deal with complaints of unfair competition or undue discrimination.
    Mr. Jenkin: So long as the Minister refuses to accede to these very reasonable demands which have been put forward by the Confederation of British Industry and others who have voiced fears about the diversification of the nationalised industries, how can he expect them to take his assurances rationally? Does not he realise that great anger was caused by the remark made the other day by his
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    Parliamentary Secretary about industry fearing lions under the bed?
    Mr. Marsh: The hon. Gentleman's question was in two parts. First, he asked for separate annual accounts covering the activities of diversification projects. Secondly, he asked for a tribunal to be set up to deal with this if the parties were aggrieved.
    On the first one, the National Coal Board's accounts for 1965–66 include details of diversified projects undertaken in association with private industry, and I shall be discussing with the Board the form of future accounts.
    On the second part, it is the responsibility of Government in the end to take the decisions and to be answerable to Parliament. Many of the suggestions in the C.B.I.'s memorandum are broadly acceptable to the Government.
    Mr. David Griffiths: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members on the other side—and ex-Members, too—who were supposed to be experts in this direction did not know the first ethic of it? In fact, one hon. Member at that time did not know until he saw it on the tape that his colliery company was £50,000 in the red.

    Private Contractors (Selective Employment Tax)
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Power what is the outcome of his request to area electricity and gas boards to put up their prices for contracting work by an amount equivalent to what they would have to pay if Selective Employment Tax were levied, in order thereby to offset the unfair incidence of the tax levied on contractors in the private sector.
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Minister of Power whether he is aware that, following consultations between himself and area electricity boards and private enterprise electrical contractors, the area boards have agreed to raise their prices to consumers for electrical contracting work by a sum equal to the Selective Employment Tax which such boards do not pay, but private enterprise electrical contractors do pay, whereas this is contrary to Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    Mr. Alisonasked the Minister of Power to what extent the arrangement he has made for nationalised electrical contracting concerns to take the Selective Employment Tax into account in costing projects will raise the prices of the services they offer; and whether he intends to make similar arrangements in the case of gas contracting and coal retailing.
    Mr. Haseldineasked the Minister of Power if he has completed his consultations with the electricity and gas industries concerning the effect of Selective Employment Tax on the terms of competition between electricity and gas showrooms, private contractors and retail firms; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Marsh: I would refer the hon. Members to the Answers to Questions by the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and the hon. Members for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dickens) and Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) on the 18th October [Vol. 734, c. 32] and 8th November [Vol. 735, c. 249] respectively. The arrangements I have proposed would only apply to the contracting activities of area electricity and gas boards.
    Mr. Braine: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that he gave the House an undertaking in that Answer on 18th October. Would not he agree that a more sensible arrangement would have been to have exempted private contractors from paying this tax at the outset and thus avoided the charge of unfair competition by area boards, and indeed increased costs to the consumer? The right hon. Gentleman must fulfil his undertaking to Parliament.
    Mr. Marsh: The undertaking was to find a way of trying to meet all the interests involved. Consumers have interests, and the public purse has an interest, too. These arrangements will not apply until 1st January, which is after the ending of the prices and incomes standstill. They provide electrical contractors with equality of competition. They leave the Exchequer's net cash outflow unaffected and they save the economy the burden of administration which would be imposed on the board and the Ministry by liability to the tax. It seems a good solution to me.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is it not a fact that what the right hon. Gentleman has done
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    amounts to a conspiratorial alliance between himself and the area electricity boards deliberately to raise prices in contravention of the Prime Minister's statement? Why does he not take action to bring down prices, not to put them up?
    Mr. Marsh: If the hon. Gentleman would produce his supplementaries after he has heard the Answers they would not be so repetitive. I said that this would not apply until 1st January, which is after the ending of the prices and incomes standstill.
    Mr. Alison: The right hon. Gentleman did not make plain whether the full S.E.T. would be passed on or whether the nationalised electrical contracting firms would have to absorb a percentage of it in higher productivity. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a percentage has to be absorbed in higher productivity, and if so what percentage, or whether the full S.E.T. is to be passed on?
    Mr. Marsh: One would expect all the contractors, public or private, to absorb as much as they can of this tax. This is not the amount which they have to charge to the consumer. The amounts involved are very small indeed. Direct labour costs amount to about 6 per cent. of the total revenue, which is only one-third of the industry's turnover. The amount involved is very small, and the more that can be absorbed the better.
    Mr. Dalyell: Would not my hon. Friend agree that he has been generous, some may think over-generous, to the interests of private contractors?
    Mr. Marsh: Until I heard hon. Gentlemen opposite, my hon. Friend's description completely described my own feelings.
    Mrs. Knight: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is considerable justified anger among private electrical contractors, first, because they are having to put up their prices because of the S.E.T., and, secondly, because through their own tax they are helping their competitors against themselves?
    Mr. Marsh: The hon. Lady's question has underlined the problem. If she would get together with the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro)—
    Sir G. Nabarro: I do not want my hon. Friend to get together with me.
    Mr. Marsh: That demonstrates the hon. Gentleman's usual lack of appreciation of these things. There are two problems here. The hon. Gentleman is complaining about prices being raised. The hon. Lady is complaining because they have not been raised enough to cover contractors. This arrangement is being discussed with the Electrical Contractors' Association, and has been discussed with it, and all the interests have to be taken into account. This seems to be the best way of doing it.
    Mr. Barber: Is the Minister aware that our complaint is simply that the effect of S.E.T., which was, after all, a Government measure, has been to put up prices all round?
    Mr. Marsh: None of this change, so far as it relates to this industry, has put any prices up. Nor will it do so during the period of the freeze, and one would hope that after that the industry and everybody else will do what they can to absorb it.

    Nationalised Industries (Capital Return)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Power what has been the return on capital employed in the nationalised coal, gas, and electricity industries, respectively, in the last year; and how this compares with the average for the last five years.
    Dr. Bray: The gross return, consisting of surpluses, depreciation and interest, in 1965–66, was for coal 11 per cent., for gas 10 per cent. and for electricity 12·6 per cent. With permission I shall circulate the five-year averages and explanatory notes in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Is not this return very low compared with the average of private companies'? Does not this cast grave doubt on the Government's policy to allow public concerns to go into the manufacturing industry?
    Dr. Bray: No, Sir. These returns fulfil almost precisely the target set by hon. Members opposite when they were the Government.
    Following is the information:
    Five-year Averages, 1961–66: Coal 12·6 per cent., Gas 9·8 per cent., Electricity 12·2 per cent.

    EXPLANATORY NOTES
    1. Gross return consists of surpluses, depreciation and interest.
    2. The National Coal Board, 1965–66, figure is calculated after allowance for the capital reconstruction carried out in that year. The average is in respect of the Board's accounting years 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964–65 and 1965–66. Because of the change in the Board's accounting year the return for 1963 has been assumed to be 12/15th of the figure for the fifteen months period ended March, 1964.
    3. The Gas figures are for England, Wales and Scotland; the Electricity figures for England and Wales only.

    Pricing Policy (North Sea Gas)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Power what effect he estimates the discovery of gas supplies in the North Sea will have on pricing policy in the nationalised industries.
    Mr. Marsh: I do not expect the advent of North Sea gas to cause any fundamental change in the general principles of pricing policy as set out in last year's White Paper on Fuel Policy (Cmnd. 2798).
    Mr. Ridsdale: Will the Minister do all he can to encourage competition between various types of fuel and allow market forces, and not the Minister, to determine the price?
    Mr. Marsh: No, Sir. I would have thought that what we need to do is to discover the best way of using all the different sources of energy that we have and, having decided what is the best way, to consider how best to ensure that this pattern is met.

  COAL

    Coal Mines (Rolf Installations)
    Mr. Patrick Jenkinasked the Minister of Power how many Rolf installations have been installed in coal mines in Great Britain.
    Dr. Bray: I understand that two experimental installations were made in 1962; these have now been withdrawn and are awaiting transfer to other pits. Two others are in current operation, one is in the process of installation, and a further three will follow shortly.
    Mr. Jenkin: May I ask the Minister not to give consent for any further Rolf

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    installations until the National Union of Mineworkers and the National Coal Board have reached agreement on the 7-day manning of these expensive capital installations in coal mines? Is not the failure to agree on 7-day manning an absolute disaster?
    Dr. Bray: That is an entirely different question. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]
    Mr. Jenkin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I asked the Minister whether he would withhold consent for any further installations.
    Mr. Speaker: A Minister has the right to answer a Question in whatever way he likes.

    National Coal Board (Builders' Merchants Businesses)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Power how many builders' merchants businesses have been purchased by the National Coal Board since its inception.
    Dr. Bray: I am informed by the National Coal Board that, through an associated company, fourteen builders' merchants businesses have been bought in various parts of the country.
    Mr. King: Will the hon. Gentleman please bear in mind the degree of not unnatural resentment from the bona fide merchants who are now being competed with by a Board which has millions of pounds of capital behind it and which can afford to bear losses for an indefinite period?
    Dr. Bray: At the same time, the hon. Member will, I am sure, agree that when other fuel industries have showrooms in shopping centres it is important for the Coal Board to have outlets for the kind of appliances in which people can burn coal. It is with this in mind that the Board is diversifying in this direction.
    Mr. Nott: Do the figures which the Minister has just given include the large number of acquisitions made by J. H. Sankey & Son, a company controlled by the Coal Board?
    Dr. Bray: Yes, they do.

    Colliery Spoil Heaps
    Mr. Rowlandasked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction
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    to the National Coal Board to institute a survey of all colliery spoil banks whose future growth is planned to take them nearer to occupied houses and to review policy in the light of such a survey.
    Mr. Marsh: The Board has already examined all its spoil heaps to ensure that they do not constitute a hazard to life or property. Policy will be reviewed in the light of the report of the tribunal which is now sitting.
    Mr. Rowland: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that will give partial satisfaction to my constituents, who in this instance are concerned not so much with safety as with amenity? In at least one village in Warwickshire, the Coal Board spoil bank will advance during the next few years quite close to a recently erected private housing estate. If a general direction is not appropriate in this instance, will my right hon. Friend look into the case?
    Mr. Marsh: Certainly, if my hon. Friend will send me details of this or any other instance, I will look at it. Pit-heaps which were in existence on 1st July, 1948, can be continued only under the general permission of the Town and Country Planning (General Development) Order, 1963. This may well be an alternative avenue open to my hon. Friend.

    Colliery Waste
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Power how many tons of colliery waste were put to industrial use by the National Coal Board in each of the last five years; and what research is being carried out for its further exploitation in the national interest.
    Dr. Bray: Available figures for colliery waste used industrially are 7·1, 7·9, and 6·9 million tons in 1963–64, and the two subsequent years. The Board's scientists are seeking further applications of the material to brickmaking and as an aggregate in place of gravel.
    Mrs. Short: Can my hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that this research will be pursued with the greatest possible endeavour and that in future, instead of putting coal waste on the countryside to be a potential danger to future generations, it will be used for commercial purposes as much as possible?
    Dr. Bray: Yes. Every effort is being made in that direction.

    Coal Miners (Redeployment)
    Mr. Woofasked the Minister of Power how many miners in the past five years, during the reorganisation of the mining industry, have been moved to receiving mining areas to meet the needs of modern redeployment in economic pits.
    Mr. Marsh: Since 1962 about 10,000 men have moved under Board's schemes into receiving mining areas.
    Mr. Woof: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it has not been an easy task to surmount the social upheavals in such a massive manpower movement, and would not he agree that such human redeployment for the betterment of the economy is worthy of the widespread publicity which has been vouchsafed and given by other branches of British industry which have recently been highlighted.
    Mr. Marsh: I would certainly agree with that. I do not think that there is any other industry which, faced with such enormous social problems, has acted with less upheaval and less dislocation than has happened in the coal industry in this very difficult period.

    Coal Distribution (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Eadieasked the Minister of Power if he will now take action, in view of the Report No. 21 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on Coal Distribution Costs, regarding the reorganisation of coal distribution.
    Dr. Bray: My right hon. Friend's first concern has been to draw the attention of all coal merchants to the recommendations of the Report on prices. He has however also approached the interests concerned on the longer term question of reorganisation.
    Mr. Eadie: The Minister must be aware of the fact that retail coal distribution costs increased, according to the Report, by 60 per cent. between 1958 and 1966 and that the T.G. & W., the N.U.M., and U.S.D.A.W. gave evidence in favour of public ownership? Is it not time that we stopped the public purse being exploited by private enterprise?
    Dr. Bray: As my hon. Friend knows, the Coal Board is taking an active line, through the development of coal concentration depots, and through its own interests in coal distribution.

    Yorkshire (Coal Tips)
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Minister of Power how many coal tips exist in the Yorkshire coalfield; and what investigations are being made to ensure that they do not create a hazard to health or safety of local residents.
    Mr. Marsh: 283 under the control of the National Coal Board; I have no information about the number under the control of local authorities, private owners or licensed mines. The National Coal Board has made a detailed inspection of each of its tips since the Aberfan disaster, and I am assured that none constitutes a hazard to life or property.
    Mr. Hooley: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but will he impress upon the National Coal Board that these tips damage the amenities of the Yorkshire and Humberside region?
    Mr. Marsh: The question of amenity is another matter, which will no doubt be considered by the Board.

  SCOTLAND (ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT)
  Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the existing arrangements designed to co-ordinate the activities of Ministers concerned with the protection and development of the Scottish economy; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible for the formulation and implementation of plans for Scotland within the national framework. In exercising this responsibility he acts in consultation with other Ministers concerned.
  Mr. Taylor: If the Prime Minister is satisfied with existing arrangements could he explain precisely what benefits accrue to Scotland from his consistent devaluing of the position of the Secretary of State for Scotland and, in particular,

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  from the reported exclusion of the Secretary of State from discussions which are vital to Scotland—[Interruption.]— in the recent Chequers talks on the Common Market and the recent meeting of the Cabinet Economic Committee, and—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Other hon. Members have Questions to ask.
  The Prime Minister: There has been no question of devaluing my right hon. Friend, who has been at every meeting of the Cabinet dealing with Common Market questions. Hon. Members who know my right hon. Friend will know by now that he has an extremely penetrating voice when it is a question of putting forward the needs of Scotland at any meeting that he attends.
  Mr. Noble: We have as much experience of the penetrating voice of the right hon. Gentleman as the Prime Minister has, but does not he think that there are occasions, apart from meetings of the Cabinet, where the presence and advice of the Secretary of State for Scotland would often be useful at preliminary discussions? It is this which the people in Scotland feel may be being neglected.
  The Prime Minister: There is no question of the voice of Scotland being neglected or going unheard where Scotland's interests are concerned. I strongly suspect, although I have no evidence on this, that my right hon. Friend has made a much bigger contribution on these matters and on the question of entry into Europe than did the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) when he was in office.

  INDUSTRY (SHOP STEWARDS)
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister on what date he intends to meet shop stewards representing the whole of industry.
  The Prime Minister: I have no such plans at this time, Sir.
  Mr. Dalyell: In that case can my right hon. Friend confirm that the report in the Observer of 23rd October was without foundation?
  The Prime Minister: I have no responsibility for reports in the Observer, but
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  this question has been considered, and at an appropriate time it might be a useful thing to do. But it is only two months since I addressed the T.U.C., which is the official organisation representing the industrial labour movement.

  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  Sir T. Beamishasked the Prime Minister which of the conditions that he has laid down before the United Kingdom could join the Common Market would necessitate permanent changes in the Customs Union, the common agricultural policy or the structure and functions of the existing institutions of the European Economic Community; and if he will now modify these conditions to avoid the need for such changes and open the way for preliminary negotiations with a view to joining the Common Market by 1969.
  The Prime Minister: The precise arrangements to be made in order to safeguard our essential interests would be central to any negotiation. It would not be right for me to define in advance the circumstances in which application might be made for entry.
  Sir T. Beamish: Since that does not answer the Question one little bit, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that if he would make a hearty meal of his Bristol speech he would be going a long way to disarming his critics, who sit in substantial numbers on both sides of the House and who genuinely want to see a successful national effort to get this country into Europe?
  The Prime Minister: It was not an accident that I did not give the hon. and gallant Gentleman a fuller answer to his Question. It is my view that if we are to get the best possible results, first from the discussions which my right hon. Friend and I will be having and then, if the conditions are right, from any subsequent negotiations, it would be foolish to give away all our terms in advance.
  Mr. Shinwell: Has my right hon. Friend not reversed his original policy in this connection? Have we not frequently made it clear that we were not prepared to go into the Common Market

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  except on stipulated conditions, and that even if some of them have suffered erosion there are some conditions whose acceptance we must demand before we enter the Common Market?
  The Prime Minister: In 1962, we said that we were ready to go in, provided, as my right hon. Friend says, that certain essential conditions were met. Over the last year or two, before the last election and in our election manifesto, we have said that we are ready and eager to go in provided that we can ensure that essential British and Commonwealth interests are observed. That is still the position, and that, of course, is what I said last Thursday.

  HONOURS SYSTEM
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister whether his proposals for modernising the Honours system include specific references to the methods by which civil servants are honoured in large numbers each year.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave on 27th October to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Armstrong).
  Mr. Hamilton: Would my right hon. Friend say why he strained at the gnat and swallowed the camel in this respect? Is it not the case that the number of political honours in each Honours List is about one-tenth of the number awarded to civil servants? When will he make some inroads into this kind of patronage?
  The Prime Minister: My statement referred, as it was intended to do, specifically to political honours. I think that the decision which I announced on that occasion was right, but I said in answer to a supplementary question, that, of course, the whole Honours system will be under continuous review—not excluding the question of the number and type of honours for which civil servants and members of the Armed Services are recommended. This will be a continuing review, but I cannot promise my hon. Friend any early statement about it.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the inference behind the Question was that civil servants have been wrongly honoured,
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  even when he has been Prime Minister? Does he agree with that inference?
  The Prime Minister: I do not agree with that suggestion, if that was the implication of my hon. Friend's Question. I thought that what he was after—it is a point which has been a matter of some public comment—was that, in the past, including the last two years, a number of honours have been given—there is a very strong case for it—both to members of the Armed Forces and to civil servants in relation to rank rather than particular achievement. This is a point on which there is a lot to be said on both sides. I should not want to rush into a decision about it.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (STAFF)
  Mr. Onslowasked the Prime Minister what instructions he has given to the members of his administration to reduce the size of the Departments under their control.
  The Prime Minister: Ministers in charge of Departments are well aware of the importance of manpower economy, but some increases in staffs are necessary to implement recent legislation.
  Mr. Onslow: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that, when I asked the same Question a year ago, he said that the Chancellor was calling for maximum economy? Is he aware that, in the interval, the size of the Civil Service has risen by over 1,000 a month? Can he frankly or honestly call that "economy"?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. Economy must be measured in relation to the job which has to be done. Whether hon. Members opposite approved of these matters or not, there have been substantial changes in the taxation system. [Interruption.] If that had not been the case we could not, with any decency, have asked for a prices and incomes standstill. It was because right hon. Gentlemen did not do it that they failed to get one. Also, of course, there have been significant changes in the social services and a very big increase in the staff of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Social Security—which I defend.
  Sir C. Osborne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in London alone,

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  1,000,000 sq. ft. of extra office space has been taken for civil servants? Does he not think that this is an evil method of working?
  The Prime Minister: We have tried where possible—as our predecessors did: like them, we have had some success—to decentralise offices from London to other parts of the country. However, as I said, when this work has to be done, one cannot provide—[Interruption.] Most of these have been the result of decisions taken by the House after very prolonged debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "S.E.T."] Certainly, S.E.T.—very much so—and also other tax changes, which have been fully debated in the House. The hon. Gentleman must not suggest that all paper work, whether by civil servants or in private enterprise, is necessarily bad
  Mr. Coe: Would my right hon. Friend accept that this continual bleating by the Opposition about the size of the Civil Service represents a slur on the Civil Service, suggesting that it is not doing its job?
  The Prime Minister: I did not so interpret it. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House recognise that the jobs which civil servants are asked to do are the result of decisions taken by the Government of the day and by Parliament. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite were as well served, of course, by the Civil Service as we have been. I took these Questions exactly as they were meant, implying that hon. Members did not agree with some of the policies which the House has carried through.

  COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Prime Minister what representation he has received from Commonwealth countries seeking to abolish the Commonwealth Relations Office and have its functions transferred to the Foreign Office; and what reply he has sent.
  The Prime Minister: I have received no such representations.
  Mr. King: Would the right hon. Gentleman take it from me, then, that representatives of no less than four African countries have made this suggestion, I think reasonably, because they resent
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  foreign countries having access to the Foreign Office which they do not have? In particular, with the Common Market negotiations in view, they will want to make representations to those conducting negotiations in that matter.
  The Prime Minister: Of course I will take from the hon. Gentleman anything which he states as a fact, but the Question which I was asked was what representations I have had. The answer is that I have not had any. I would not agree with the deductions which the hon. Gentleman draws from what was said to him, because I believe that many Commonwealth countries—not least African countries, but many others as well—feel that they have much more direct access to Government in this country through the Commonwealth Affairs Office and the Commonwealth Secretary than if they were, in each case, just one of perhaps a hundred Ambassadors and Ministers.

  GOVERNMENT OF NORTHERN IRELAND (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. McNamaraasked the Prime Minister (1) what further plans he has to continue the discussions with Captain O'Neill and the Government of Northern Ireland;
  (2) if he will introduce amending legislation to enable all Northern Ireland matters to be raised in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom.
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister what plans he has for further discussions with representatives of the Government of Northern Ireland; and what progress has been made to date.
  Mr. Hamlingasked the Prime Minister whether he will now initiate discussions concerning constitutional changes in the Government of Northern Ireland.
  The Prime Minister: The House will recall that I had a useful discussion with Captain O'Neill on a wide range of matters in August. We both hope to resume our discussions fairly soon but no date has yet been arranged. I cannot at this stage speculate about the subjects which will be covered.
  Mr. McNamara: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable

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  concern on this side of the House that, whereas the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) can ask questions about direct building schemes in Salford, we cannot ask questions about discrimination in housing matters in the hon. Member's constituency?
  The Prime Minister: There is certainly illogicality here, and there have been cases, when majorities were smaller than at present, when a Government could have fallen with a Northern Ireland vote on Rachmanism in London, although nothing could be said about housing conditions in Belfast. This is part and parcel of the long-standing arrangement between the two countries. In our talks with Captain O'Neill, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I have been trying to discuss with him some of the questions on which there is anxiety on both sides of the House.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that there are some violently anti-democratic practices in Northern Ireland which we find very difficult to tolerate? My right hon. Friend talks about "long-standing" practices. Do these anti-democratic practices which I have talked about warrant another look at these long-standing practices? Will he consider setting up a Royal Commission on the whole problem?
  The Prime Minister: When I referred to long-standing practices, I was talking about the constitutional position and constitutional convention. I was not referring to some of the individual actions taken in Northern Ireland, which I know cause concern to my hon. Friends. But as hon. Members from Northern Irish constituencies have said in the House very frankly, Captain O'Neill has shown very great courage in this last year or two in standing up to some of the most reprehensible types of activity in Northern Ireland—
  Mr. William Hamilton: There is a long way to go.
  The Prime Minister: There may be, as my hon. Friend says, a long way to go, but he will be aware of the political campaign and the very squalid mock religious campaign mounted against Captain O'Neill as a result of his actions.
  Captain Orr: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the prospect of continuing these discussions is welcomed in Northern Ireland? Is he aware that the thing which is giving us most real anxiety there at the moment is the rising unemployment, that the latest figures show that our unemployment was 4,000 up on the same period last year? Will he, in these future talks with Captain O'Neill, be as helpful as he can towards any proposition which may be put to him in that regard?
  The Prime Minister: I discussed this question with Captain O'Neill in our previous talks and, of course, in any future talks—as is the case every time I meet him—economic questions will be discussed. The anxieties expressed by my hon. Friends and, indeed, by some hon. Members opposite, related not to this very serious and continuing economic problem which we have had for many years in Northern Ireland: the anxieties have referred to discrimination in many other matters, but not excluding the allocation of jobs.
  Mr. McMaster: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Question simply asks for discussions with Captain O'Neill? Is he aware that unemployment in Northern Ireland is now increasing at the rate of 1,000 a month and that this presents a very serious problem, particularly in relation to aircraft and shipyards in Belfast?
  The Prime Minister: I am very well aware of the serious position that exists there. A serious position has existed for many years and the figures have been a great deal higher than they are today, although I agree that that is no reason for complacency. However, the hon. Gentleman will understand that the main purpose for seeking these particular talks with Captain O'Neill related to some perhaps different and non-economic questions, although when they take place economic questions can be discussed.
  Mr. Fitt: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greatest single cause of discontent in Northern Ireland is the operation of the completely undemocratic electoral system, allied to the vicious gerrymandering in Deny City? Would he assure the House that, in any future discussions with the Prime Minister of

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  Northern Ireland, he will impress on him the necessity of implementing British standards in electoral law in Northern Ireland?
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that Captain O'Neill is well aware of the facts brought out from time to time by my hon. Friend. [Interruption.] I am sure that he is well aware of them. I am equally sure that he is well aware that complaints are sometimes made on both sides about the electoral system in Northern Ireland. Where there are breaches of the law, that is a matter for the prosecuting authorities and not for Her Majesty's Government. I agree that over a period of time all these questions should be discussed with the Government of Northern Ireland because they affect—and I am not thinking of any particular hon. Member on either side—representation in this House. Naturally, over a period of time they should be discussed, but this has not been a very propitious year for putting pressure on Captain O'Neill in view of what he has had to face in connection with the actions already taken.
  Sir Knox Cunningham: Is the Prime Minister aware that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) and the hon. and learned Member for Antrim, South are both elected on the universal franchise of one man, one vote; and would he like to choose between them?
  The Prime Minister: I am well aware of the state of the law in relation to elections in Northern Ireland, though there are, of course, many parts of the world where one man, one vote applies; but one is not always totally happy about what one reads about the electoral practices within them. The one thing on which I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman and I will agree is that he
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  could have been elected here only as a result of his superb eloquence and deep intelligence.
  Several Hon. Members—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Godber, personal statement.

PERSONAL STATEMENT
Mr. J. B. Godber: With your permission, Speaker, I wish to make a personal statement.
When speaking in the debate on agriculture, on 3rd November, I referred—my remarks are reported in column 675 of the OFFICIAL REPORT—to an article in the Farmer and Stockbreeder of 27th September and, when quoting from that article, I attributed to a spokesman of the Bank of England certain comments, some of which, in fact, originated from a spokesman of Banking Information Service, which represent the views of the clearing banks.
I wish to apologise to the House and to those concerned for having inadvertently given an incorrect attribution.

BILL PRESENTED
  LICENSING ACT 1964 (AMENDMENT)
  Bill to amend Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964 in regard to the provisions of off-licences in licensing planning areas, presented by Mr. W. T. Williams; supported by Mr. Richard Sharples, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, Mr. Will Owen, Mr. Laurence Pavitt, Mr. Robert Cooke, and Mr. Hilton; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 25th November, and to be printed. [Bill 131.]

EXPORT OF ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH
Mr. Rafton Pounder: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the export of animals for vivisectional research and for purposes connected therewith.
I wish to make it clear at the outset that my Bill has wide support in all quarters of the House and is not a vivisectionist Measure. The important word is "export" rather than "vivisection".
The support which I have received in recent weeks from a large number of well-known and respected organisations has far transcended the boundaries of the traditional supporters and opponents of vivisection. I am pleased to include the full support of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals among the protagonists of my Bill, in addition to the British Council of Anti-Vivisection Societies.
I do not propose to enter into any of the ethical or medical arguments associated with vivisection. Such arguments are irrelevant to my Bill, for it has nothing to do with vivisection in this country. It is purely concerned with animal export. In recent days, particularly the two days of this week, my mail has included a tremendous number of letters supporting the principle embodied in the Bill. I have received, over two days of this week, more than 150 letters of good wishes from all parts of the United Kingdom.
What is my Bill and why is it necessary? The Measure would, as I have stated, prohibit the export of animals for vivisection abroad. Such a Measure is necessary, because in no other country is there legislation comparable to the Cruelty of Animals Act, 1876. Although this Act is 90 years old, and is probably in need of revision, particularly regarding the provision of adequate inspection of experiments, whatever its shortcomings, it is unique in the annals of animal legislation.
Section 3 of the Act states quite clearly that
'…no experiment calculated to give pain shall be performed on a vertibrate animal with-
230
out complete anaesthesia of the animal during the whole of the experiment, or without the animal being killed before recovery from the anaesthetic if it is in pain or seriously injured. …"
The animal protection given by the Act is clear and humane and has afforded just pride to us all—to research workers and to animal welfare societies alike.
Although some would contend that comparisons with other countries are odious, I feel that consideration must be given to the fact that certain things which would not be tolerated under the regulations applicable in this country are practised with impunity in many parts of the world.
I do not wish to engage in emotionalism, for emotion is frequently the refuge of the man whose case will not stand critical, reasoned examination. However, I wish to illustrate the point which I am endeavouring to make regarding practices abroad. I have in my pocket a series of authenticated photographs of experiments conducted in a Japanese laboratory. Apart from the nauseating nature of the experiments depicted, the fact which is doubly distressing is that it is abundantly clear that not one of the dogs in the pictures has been anaesthetised. Surely it is wholly undesirable that animals bred and reared in Britain should be sold for use in foreign laboratories, where the protection offered by British legislation does not apply.
How extensive is the practice of exporting animals from the United Kingdom for vivisectional research abroad? Precise figures are extremely difficult to obtain and estimates fluctuate wildly. The best estimate I have been able to obtain is that the trade amounts to several tens of thousands of animals per annum—40,000 to 60,000 animals is the best estimate I can make. These animals include rats, mice, guinea pigs, hamsters, but also a substantial number of dogs and cats.
This trade is growing. Of this, there is no doubt. One company has recently established a large animal breeding centre in Huntingdonshire. It is noteworthy that on its certificate of registration the activities of the company are described as
"… the breeding of laboratory animals for research organisations mainly in Europe."
Mr. Dan Jones: Would the hon. Gentleman name the company?
Mr. Pounder: It is Caworth, of Huntingdonshire. There are also other firms which export animals for research as a subsidiary part of their trading activities. Their number is considerable, although exact figures in this connection are also imprecise.
How could any ban be enforced? On the normal documents required for any exporting activity it would not be difficult to include a sentence stating that where animals are exported these creatures would not be used for vivisectional purposes. Likewise, it would not be too difficult to fine those who contravene such a regulation, in the same way as those who break any regulation can be called to account.
In my view, certain clear obligations devolve on anyone who uses animals in research work; he incurs a moral responsibility to justify his action and a duty to limit pain and give proper care. There is no legislation anywhere abroad requiring proper care of animals, nor inspection of experiments, nor steps to limit pain. The Littlewood Report states that the rôle of animal legislation is to prohibit objectionable activities, and I feel that one such is the export of animals for research.
I commend my humble Bill as necessary to stop what is a growing and degrading export traffic. This Measure is humane, and I hope that I have shown that it is also reasonable in its character. I trust that it will meet with the approval of all right hon. and hon. Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pounder, Mr. L. M. Lever, Mr. Weatherill, Mr. Harold Walker, Mr. Burden, Mr. Bessell, Mr. Hunt, and Mr. Bence.

EXPORT OF ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH
Bill to prohibit the export of animals for vivisectional research and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 3rd February, and to be printed. [Bill 130.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.44 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Roy Jenkins)The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Roy Jenkins) rose—
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would not presume to criticise your decision as to who catches your eye, but might the House have an assurance that since the object of the Bill is to "comprehensivise" education in Greater London we shall have the Secretary of State for Education and Science here at least to try to catch your eye?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order, and I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that it is not.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is a simple and, I would have hoped, relatively non-controversial Bill. That hope, I must confess, having heard who the Opposition speakers are to be, looks unlikely to be fulfilled. The right hon. and learned Member for St. Mary-lebone (Mr. Hogg)—who has explained to me that he may not be here at the beginning of the debate, because he is appearing in court—is, as I know well from experience, capable of playing things extremely well either way. No one would for a moment doubt his capacity for controversy. But his presence, except at election time, at any rate, is no necessary guarantee that party passions are to be stirred and issues judged not on their merits.
  About the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), who, I understand, is to speak after me, I am not quite so sure. It may be, of course, that he has merely come to give us his blessing as one of the Members for Enfield—a borough which is on record as being in favour of the changes we are proposing. But it may equally be that his purposes are less benign—and less representative of his borough. In any event, I hope that, as an old lady said when she saw Mr. Gladstone at a funeral, he has not come here merely to cause a disturbance.

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  Whether or not this Bill is uncontroversial, it is undoubtedly true that it is a simple Bill, and one which I believe I can explain and commend to the House quite briefly. It is a short Bill of only three Clauses. Its first purpose is to deal with difficulties which the returning officers in London are convinced would arise if certain of the arrangements envisaged in the London Government Act, 1963, were put into effect, and to deal with them by postponing the London borough elections for one year. The House will recall that under the 1963 Act, in particular, Schedule 3, paragraph 15, elections to the Greater London Council and to the London borough councils would eventually take place on the same day, and that this procedure would come into effect once Greater London had been divided—for the purpose of Greater London Council elections—into single-member electoral areas base on new Parliamentary constituencies.
  The provision for combined elections followed a recommendation made by the Royal Commission on Local Government in Greater London. The matter was dealt with very briefly in paragraph 856 of the Report of the Royal Commission. The Commission said:
  "We believe it would be possible, and, if so, we think it very desirable, that elections for the Council."
  that is to say, the Greater London Council,
  "and elections for the Greater London Borough Councils should be held simultaneously, so that at one and the same polling booth at one and the same time an elector votes on a Parliamentary constituency basis for one member of the Council for Greater London, and on a ward basis for his own borough councillors as at present ".
  We have not yet had any combined elections under the 1963 Act, but—as I have endeavoured to explain—unless there is amending legislation we are bound to have them in due course. With this prospect in view, a working party of town clerks of London boroughs has been considering the question of the practicability of combined elections. As hon. Members well know, the town clerks are returning officers for both borough council elections and the Greater London Council elections, and as such are I think uniquely qualified to advise on the practical problems involved. In the light of its study of these problems, the working
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  party reported unanimously its conclusions to the London Boroughs Association, which, in turn, wrote to my Department in April of this year.
  The working party drew attention to a number of difficulties, including the provision of equipment and staff, complications in postal voting and the greater risk that mistakes would be made, and concluded that, while these difficulties might not be insuperable, the burden that would be placed on returning officers would be very heavy and the resulting procedure might not be very satisfactory, either to candidates or to the electorate.
  In the light of this Report, to which I am sure that the House will agree that considerable weight should be attached, the Government had to decide whether the difficulties to which the returning officers had drawn attention were so important that the idea of combined elections, as envisaged in the 1963 Act, should be abandoned. My own view, leaving the practical difficulties out of account for the moment, though they cannot, of course, be wholly excluded, is that the arguments for and against combined elections are fairly evenly balanced. On the one hand, there is the point made by the Royal Commission that combined elections would help Londoners to understand better the types of council for which they are voting, and the functions of the councils to which the candidates are seeking election; on the other hand there is great force in the argument—which has been put forward for example by the Greater London Council—that it might well be difficult for the elector, approached by a political party in what would often be a single election address, to distinguish his preference for one party for borough purposes from his possible different preference for another party for Greater London purposes.
  We have to recognise that electors, in practice, already find it difficult to distinguish between the large number of candidates listed on the local election ballot papers, and it is important not to increase this difficulty by presenting each elector, on the same occasion, with not one but two ballot papers, one of them involving a multiple choice and the other involving a choice between several candidates for a single seat.

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  I do not claim that the arguments either way on this point are overwhelming. A reasonable case could be made out each way. When the London Government Bill was going through Parliament in 1963, vigorous efforts were made in another place to persuade the Government of the day to change their mind and to provide for the two sets of elections to be held in different years. The then Government spokesman in the other place gave an assurance in Committee that the matter would be considered further before the Report stage. In the event, although it was conceded by the Conservative Government that the arguments were evenly balanced, no change was made.
  As I have said, this Government accept the view of our predecessors that the general case for and against combined elections is evenly balanced. This being so, we feel that the views of those who have to operate the system should be of decisive importance. As the House will recall, the Royal Commission said no more than that it believed that it would be "possible" to hold combined elections. No doubt, it would be possible. But the town clerks, on whom the main burden falls of putting into effect the administrative arrangements for the procedure decided upon here, having spontaneously examined the problems which would arise, have set out in convincing terms the reasons why they think that combined elections would be, if not entirely impracticable, then certainly full of major difficulties.
  In addition, the views of the overwhelming majority of the local authorities concerned are now against combined elections. This is the view of the Greater London Council. It is also the view of 27 out of the 32 Greater London Boroughs. I think that it would be wrong to reject this clear view of those most intimately concerned. Indeed, it appears also to be the view of the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath). In a statement on 24th October, not otherwise very friendly to this Bill, I admit, he said:
  "There may be something to be said for the view that the London Borough and Greater London Council elections should be in different years."
  So far, therefore, we can legitimately say that there is great and widespread support for a change. I deliberately say
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  a change, for I shall come to the change in a moment.
  Once we had decided against combined elections, we had to decide what alternative arrangments should be made. One possibility would be to make permanent the present temporary arrangements under which elections to the G.L.C. and the London boroughs take place in the same year but in different months. None of the 32 London boroughs has suggested that this should be done. It seems to me that it would be the worst of both worlds. Holding elections in succeeding months of the same year is hardly a course calculated to increase public interest and so to secure reasonable polls.
  In 1964, all the boroughs within the Greater London area secured a poll of 35·7 per cent. That was when they were polling a month after the elections for the G.L.C., and it was a poll lower than that achieved by any other group of authorities throughout the country. For county councils the figure was 40·9 per cent., for county boroughs 40·5 per cent., and for municipal boroughs and urban district councils 42 per cent.
  Furthermore, in 1964, when the elections occurred within a month of the G.L.C. elections, the percentage voting figures for the inner London boroughs, that is, those which were previously within the London County Council area and on which one can most directly make comparisons between that year and the previous year when elections were not held in successive months, were the lowest for over a decade.
  In those boroughs only a 27·6 per cent. poll was secured as against 32·3 per cent. in 1962; 32·1 per cent. in 1959; 30·9 per cent. in 1956; and 39·9 per cent. in 1953. In addition, the drop between the G.L.C. polling figure and those for the London boroughs as a whole, not the inner London boroughs, of 8 per cent., was greater than it had been for a very long time past. There is a greater threat to effective democracy in so arranging elections as to encourage an extremely low poll than there is, in a short extension in the life of councils.
  If we accept, as I hope the House will, that the case against having elections in successive months of the same year is a very strong one, it remains to be decided whether the change to hold them in successive years should be made now, that

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  is, before the elections otherwise due to be held for Greater London in April, 1967, and for the boroughs in May, 1967, or whether we should wait until 1970 when the next set of elections would fall due.
  The Opposition, if I understand their position correctly, say that if the change is to be made at all—I do not understand them to say that the change should not be made—it should be delayed until 1970. It is not clear why, at least on constitutional grounds, they think this. It is not unprecedented for bodies normally elected for three years to be given a four-year term. In 1948, for example, it was decided to change the time of borough council elections generally, including metropolitan borough council elections, from November to May.
  This meant that, following the London County Council elections of April, 1949, the metropolitan borough council elections took place a month later. Provision was made, however, in the Representation of the People Act, 1948, for metropolitan borough councillors elected in 1949 to serve for four years instead of three, an arrangement which accordingly effected in the early 1950s the separation into different years of L.C.C. and metropolitan borough council elections. That provision was not opposed by the party opposite, then in opposition as it is today.
  There is an even closer parallel. When in office, the party opposite was responsible for a provision in the London Government Act, 1963 under which the ordinary triennial county council elections in Kent, Surrey and Essex due to be held in 1964 were postponed till 1965. I may say that there were Conservative majorities in all those three county councils the term of office of which was extended.
  Nothing would have been easier than for us, when in opposition, to oppose this postponement and to make easy political points, perhaps similar to those which we may hear today. We chose not to do so. I hope that, on reflection, right hon. Members opposite will feel that they also ought to adopt a responsible attitude to what is no more than a sensible administrative rearrangement which we are now proposing.
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  It cannot, therefore, be reasonable to argue that there is anything either unprecedented or undemocratic in the Bill. What was right for the electors of Kent, Surrey and Essex in 1964 cannot suddenly have become a constitutional monstrosity for the electors of the London boroughs in 1967. Indeed, the case for extending the terms of office for borough councillors elected in 1964 becomes all the stronger when one takes into account that, although elected in that year, they did not fully take over their functions until 1965. They will, therefore, by April next year, have been fully in office for only two years instead of the normal three.
  Moreover, if a change is to be made, there are obvious advantages in making it at once so that the disadvantages of the present procedure, which I have already explained to the House, can be put right as soon as possible.
  The position is wrong—why wait to put it right? In recommending the Bill to the House the Government are following the course suggested by no fewer than 20 of the 27 London boroughs which are in favour of making a change, although Sutton, I believe, has changed its mind since it put its representations to me. Perhaps it was brought under a little pressure, but in any event it changed its mind too late and long after it received and considered the representations and the Government announced proposals for this legislation.
  It is certainly true, as we shall no doubt hear, that most of the London boroughs—most, but not all—have Labour majorities. That follows inevitably from the failure of the party opposite to gain the electorally advantageous position which it thought would follow from the Act of 1963. Three of the 20 boroughs have Conservative majorities, although one is Sutton, which I have mentioned. Of the seven London boroughs which want the change, but not until 1970, three have Labour majorities. Therefore, there is quite an element of cross-voting in this position.
  I hope, therefore, that we shall have no more accusations that the Government are proposing anything which is remotely improper. Wild words such as "gerrymandering", which is certainly not the meaning of the word "gerrymandering".

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  have been used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bexley, in his statement. The Government have decided that it would be right to do now what should have been done in the principal Statute and what was the position prior to 1964; that is, to put a year between the two sets of elections and to make a start with the next set of elections, those occurring in the spring of 1967.
  The Bill makes provisions required for that and for related purposes. The Bill itself is a short one and, I think, it requires little explanation. Its main provision is in subsection (1) of Clause 1, which postpones until 1968 and every third year thereafter the London borough council elections otherwise due to be held in 1967 and each third year after that. The remainder of Clause I contains consequential provisions in conection with the election of aldermen to London boroughs and the filling of council vacancies on London borough councils.
  The years in which elections to the Greater London Council are to be held are not affected by the Bill, but if the two sets of elections are not eventually to be combined as contemplated in the 1963 Act, it is necessary to make provision as to the date of the Greater London Council elections. Clause 2 provides accordingly. The date for the 1967 elections, 13th April, has already been announced. Thereafter, the Greater London Council will have power like the former London County Council to fix its own date for ordinary elections within a specified week in April.
  Why the Opposition are—if they are—trying to import political passion into this matter I am not quite sure, unless they now feel that they should approach every question before the House in this way. The London boroughs themselves, including the Tory ones, are far calmer about the matter. Westminster, with an overwhelming Conservative majority, and including the constituency of St. Maryle-bone, approached the matter in a very matter-of-fact way. The Conservative chairman of the general purposes committee, asked by a Labour member why he had not reported the matter to the full council, said that no member of the general purposes committee—with an overwhelming Conservative majority—had suggested this.
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  Now, perhaps, the Opposition think that they might do better than they did in 1964—why, I am not clear. Apparently, they think so, but the Gallup Poll does not support this view. My view is that if the change is right and desirable in itself, it cannot wait to suit the electoral convenience of the Conservative Party. We might have to wait for a very long time for such an event to occur. I believe that the case is made and supported by a great majority of those most intimately concerned, whether returning officers or elected representatives. Therefore, I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.5 p.m.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: When the present Government have to introduce a Measure which they know very well is an affront to Parliament, they adopt the "soft sell" method. For example, in Washington, the Prime Minister, doing a "hard sell" job, said of the Prices and Incomes Bill that it contained powers which had not been taken by any Government in peace and war. That was true, but they were presented in due course by the First Secretary of State to this House as if they were an agenda for a pleasant Sunday afternoon. The Home Secretary has followed this technique today.
  We are invited to make this change as a matter of the balance of administrative advantage—as a convenience for returning officers and some councillors. We are not here to protect the comfort of town clerks and councillors, but to protect the interests of the electorate. The Bill denies for a year to the electorate of the London boroughs the right to approve or disapprove of policies and to accept or reject local councillors. That is what it does. Above all—for we know very well the true origins of the Bill—it denies to every parent in the outer London area the right, if they wish, to cast their votes against schemes for comprehensive education which they find obnoxious. Not a word of this came from the Home Secretary this afternoon.
  We know that 1967 will be the decisive year so far as plans for comprehensive education are concerned, and, to some extent housing. We know that with their new powers it is the boroughs and not the G.L.C. which are now the key. The Government know this very well. They

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  know that if they can cheat the electorate for one year of their votes, particularly in the outer London areas, they can advance their plans. That is the parentage of this Bill and it will be opposed wholeheartedly at every stage by the Tory Party.
  My constituency of Enfield, West is part of the Greater London Borough of Enfield. I am speaking, first, for the Opposition because this is the most marginal of all the London boroughs. It is the only one which went differently between the G.L.C. and the boroughs. It is held on the G.L.C. by the Tories and on the borough by the Socialists, and it is also the only illustration of a borough that is held on a minority of votes.
  Therefore, the borough which I have the honour in part to represent in this House is more affected than any other by the provisions of the Bill. The story is this. As I have said, the Conservatives won the borough on the G.L.C. In the local elections, apparently owing to split voting—but I make no complaint; it happens for one and against one—the Socialists won by 31 to 29, but with a substantial minority of votes. They then proceeded to take all 10 aldermen's seats to buttress their majority. Going through the list of the boroughs which did this, I find that on 11 occasions out of 32 London boroughs the majority party took all 10 aldermen. Every single one had a Socialist majority.
  They include Enfield, Brent and Ealing, the most marginal of all the boroughs, in an attempt to buttress their vote by the use of the aldermanic vacancies. Not even in the most marginal Tory-held seat was this attempted. When these sort of actions are taken, one-sided as I have shown them to be, they call into question the very future of aldermanic vacanies to be put to such a purpose.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman does not recall that in Committee on the London Government Bill, in 1963, I moved an Amendment to remove aldermen from the Greater London Council and the boroughs, but I did not get the support of his party nor of the party opposite.
  Mr. Macleod: Perfectly true. I have read all the documents in relation to that Bill. I will come in a few minutes
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  to the very misleading account the Home Secretary gave us. In view of what happened in 1964, I think that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) will find more sympathy from the Conservatives now.
  I shall return later to the question of comprehensive schools. I will simply say that at every stage—this is natural enough—we were defeated in Enfield. We were defeated on the sub-committee of the education committee and defeated on the full committee. We were defeated in the local grammar school, of which I have the honour to be one of the foundation governors. All the time we gave one answer, and one answer only. We said, "In the end the people will decide, because the election is coming. In the spring of 1967 the people will decide. If they decide for the Conservatives, then we will upset the scheme of comprehensive education planned to come in in September, 1967".
  What has the Home Secretary done? He has taken away—he has done this deliberately—from the people of Enfield the right to decide in this matter. He himself as Home Secretary has given the Labour-controlled council one year more power.
  Why has he done so? I should like to examine his case, because I think that it will be seen that it crumbles to dust at a touch. I did not interrupt him, but I was puzzled to know whether he believed the case he was making. He had a brief. I wonder how much trouble he has been to to find out whether what he has been told is in fact an accurate representation of what has happened, as to whether he knew or whether he cared.
  Let us take the Home Secretary's story. All his speech today was based on the convenience of the returning officers. He mentioned this point over and over and over again. Three times he has already been before the House, but never once did he mention the returning officers or the town clerks. He based his case on entirely different premises then from that which he has come to the House with this afternoon. On 28th April, when the Home Secretary was replying, first, to the hon. Member for Orpington he said:
  "The Committee"—

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  that is, the London Boroughs Committee—
  "has recently informed me…"
  I would like to know how recently, perhaps from the right hon. Lady the Minister of State when she winds up the debate. I can show the House that the Home Secretary knew of this many months before that, and I can show that on the clearest possible evidence. Yet the right hon. Gentleman told the House:
  "The Committee has recently informed me…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 28th April, 1966; Vol. 727, c. 926.]
  and that was on 28th April.
  The Home Secretary makes great claim that the meeting which was held on 28th January, and which was an all-party meeting, was unanimous. This claim was also made by Mr. Norman Prichard, the Chairman of the London Boroughs Association, in a letter to The Times on 26th October. I shall show that Mr. Prichard knew very well that that meeting was not unanimous, and that the Home Secretary either knew, or could have found out, that that was the case.
  Again, we know that on 4th August, when the Home Secretary was questioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), he twice—no doubt inadvertently; of course inadvertently—misled the House, in one case by claiming 27 out of 32 for the change that he was proposing, and in another case, in response to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), when he said:
  "seven Conservative Boroughs requested this change with equal enthusiasm."
  Both of those statements, as the Home Secretary will admit—I think that he should have told the House so this afternoon—were entirely inaccurate.
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: With respect, I put the position completely clearly this afternoon. It is quite true that on—was it 8th August?—I did say "the change" when I should have said "a change". I wrote and apologised to the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I think that, on reflection, the right hon. Member for Enfield, West will agree that that was a fairly easy slip of the tongue to make and that I put the
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  position absolutely clearly this afternoon. Indeed, to draw attention, as it were, to this slip of the tongue, I specifically said, "I am now talking about a change. I will come to the change in a moment". I do not think that I could have gone further to make more clearly exactly what the distinction was.
  Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Home Secretary did not write to me to draw attention to his error until I had taken the liberty of writing to him? Is my right hon. Friend also aware that I asked the Home Secretary to make the position clear?
  Mr. Macleod: Yes; I was aware of that, and I think that the Home Secretary will find that he comes rather badly out of this exchange. He made no reference to the second slip of the tongue, was it, that he made in response to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone. Did he write to my right hon. and learned Friend and apologise for that? I think not. Did he apologise to the House? I think not.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I spoke to the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) almost immediately afterwards, as I am sure the right hon. and learned Member will confirm. He agreed what the position was, and there was no difference between us as to the fact that I had made a mistake.
  Mr. Macleod: I see. So there were two slips of the tongue, for neither of which the right hon. Gentleman apologised to the House this afternoon. The answer the Home Secretary gave—I am quoting from what he said at column 667—was this:
  "Because of the low polls which would be likely to result from two local government elections being held in successive months in 1967; and because of the administrative difficulties and the risk of confusion to the electors…".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th August, 1966; Vol. 732, c. 667.]
  The Home Secretary knows that this argument has nothing to do with 1967; that is, the question of their being held on the same day in later years, which indeed he said, because for the next year the G.L.C. elections would be on 13th April and those of the boroughs on 11th May. The Home Secretary's remark about the low poll seems to me to be quite

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  unsupported by any evidence, because he must be aware that the Royal Commission said that the low polls in the London boroughs were largely due to the narrow powers that the old metropolitan boroughs have had. This is not an argument that now applies to the London boroughs, with their vastly increased powers, and I think that we can therefore look forward to a considerable increase of interest in the elections.
  In 1949, when the elections were in the same year, the borough poll was 38·2 per cent. At the next four elections, when they were in different years, it was 39·9 per cent., which is slightly higher. The next four—30·9 per cent., 32·1 per cent., 32·3 per cent., and 36 per cent.—are all substantially lower. In so far as those figures prove anything, they tell against and not for the case the Home Secretary made to the House.
  Mr. David Weitzman: Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows that now that we have bigger boroughs there is less interest for the citizen and less likelihood that he will vote?
  Mr. Macleod: That is a matter of opinion. I do not think so, particularly because of the additional powers; and, after all, I pointed out that the Royal Commission's view was that it was the lack of powers that resulted in these low polls.
  I want to give the House fairly quickly what I think is the more accurate picture of what really happened. It will show, amongst other things—I commend this to the Home Secretary—that the intelligence of the Conservative Central Office is a good deal more lively than that of the Home Office. I said that the Home Secretary told the House on 28th April that recently he had been informed by the London Boroughs Committee, etc. In fact, the first we heard of this matter was on 2nd December, 1965, very many months beforehand, when the Chairman of Ealing Education Committee, Councillor Tom Newson, at a comprehensive education meeting, at Selborne School, Perivale, announced that this would happen.
  We were rather surprised at this. We asked for clarification from County Hall. County Hall said that it was news to it, but that it would ring up the Home
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  Office and also ring up the Labour Party Co-ordinating Committee. It did both these things. The Home Office said that it knew nothing about it; and, of course, I accept that. But the Labour Party Co-ordinating Committee said that this measure had been passed by the Coordinating Committee and at that time was in the hands of the Minister responsible.
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Macleod: I hope that the Home Secretary will have an investigation made into this matter. This is, after all, five or six months before the date which we have been given this, according to the Home Secretary. Perhaps he will tell us—or the Minister of State will later tonight—what is the real position in relation to this matter.
  I am very ready to lay this document before the House, or to make it fully available to the Press. On 14th December the following went out from the Conservative Central Office to the constituency chairmen, constituency agents and borough leaders:
  "It has been brought to my notice that the London Labour Party has approached the Home Secretary with proposals to change the date of the Borough Elections from 1967 to 1968."
  and then:
  "I have not been notified formally of this proposal, but I understand the Labour Party are confident that this measure will be presented and passed in this session of Parliament."
  The date of that was 14th December. I will make it available to the right hon. Lady the Minister of State before she speaks tonight. There is no secrecy about this document. What I want to know is: when did this matter first come to the notice of the Home Secretary, because it seems quite clear that the account which he gave to the House this afternoon is not one which can be squared with the facts?
  I turn now to the claim that this meeting on 28th January was unanimous, according to the claim made by the Home Secretary, and according to the claim made by its chairman in The Times. It would be very odd if it were unanimous, because among the members present were Conservative representatives from Bromley and Merton, both of which boroughs were among the small number

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  of those who were totally opposed to the change.
  I can prove that the meeting was not unanimous. The London Boroughs Association met on 28th January. A notice went out and—I have it here, and, again, I will make it available—a letter dated 10th February from the Conservative Central Office which says:
  "I have been asked by Alderman C. Jordan, the Conservative Minority Leader on the London Boroughs Committee, to write to you with reference to a decision published in Minutes with regard to the proposed change of the borough election date from 1967 to 1968.
  He says that he would like to make it clear on behalf of the Minority Party that while there was an expression of opinion at the Sub-Committee Meeting that the staggering of the election date was very desirable"—
  and I will come to this in a moment—
  "it was made perfectly clear by Conservative members present that the question of any alteration was a matter entirely for each individual London borough to decide."
  The matter was subsequently raised at the next meeting of the association by Alderman Jordan, our leader on that committee, by Alderman Parkin, of Bromley, and by Councillor Mrs. Derriman, of Merton, all of whom objected to the inference that the decision was unanimous.
  Even so, the minutes were not changed and the Home Secretary and Mr. Prichard proceeded on the assumption that the decision was an all-party one. It may well be that the Home Secretary has been misled—
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I have not been misled. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman seems to have prepared his speech before listening to mine. The only mention I made of the word "unanimous" was in reference to the working party of town clerks.
  Mr. Macleod: I shall be returning to the matter of town clerks.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the right hon. Gentleman please withdraw the other part?
  Mr. Macleod: Certainly, if the Home Secretary wishes; but he based his earlier case on the recommendations of the London Boroughs Association. It is to that I referred, and he will find that what
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  I have said is entirely accurate, as he would have found had he bothered to check these matters himself; but it is quite clear that he did not.
  The position is that ever since December of last year every Member of Parliament—
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): This is becoming rather confusing. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to which particular committee he is referring. Is it the full committee of the London Boroughs Association, or what is called the special committee of the London Boroughs Association?
  Mr. Macleod: The Home Secretary knows perfectly well that the full committee had the full report of the subcommittee before it. I am referring to exactly what Mr. Norman Prichard referred to in The Times. He said:
  "The suggestion that the borough elections fixed for 1967 should be postponed was considered by the Association special committee which is composed of members of both parties, and agreed unanimously,…".
  I have shown to the House that this is not true.
  The position is that ever since December every Member of Parliament—I take it, on both sides of the House—has known that the London Labour Party has approached the Home Secretary on this particular proposal; that he was, I assume, brooding over it; and that the London Labour Party was confident that it would be carried during this Session of Parliament. In the list which we have, of the boroughs which wholly supported the proposition originally made by Greenwich, that the borough elections next year should be put off, the London Labour-held marginal boroughs are included in that support. Enfield supports it. Brent supports it. Ealing supports it. Camden supports it, and Hillingdon supports it. Those are the five boroughs the Conservatives would have to gain to get control of the Greater London Council.
  Does not this unanimity suggest anything to the Home Secretary's innocent mind? Does it not occur to him that it is extremely convenient to those boroughs to have another year of power? Has he not noticed that the next tranche,

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  such as Bexley, Lambeth and Hounslow, are equally enthusiastic for this particular change? Does this suggest nothing to the Home Secretary? Does he realise that no marginal borough seat has asked for this protection? Does he realise that there is no shown agreement, no overwhelming agreement, amongst boroughs, and that this Bill is his decision? Does he realise the position the Labour majority in those boroughs will be in in succeeding years if, at the next G.L.C. elections—we cannot peer into the future and say definitely—those five seats were to fall to the Tories and the G.L.C.? They will be in by sufferance of the Home Secretary, who has bought for them an extra year of power.
  The Home Secretary dealt with two precedents, and I will refer to them both. He seems quite unconscious that both of them tell against and not for the arguments which he sought to put to the House. In 1963, the L.C.C. was coming to an end, and it was to be submerged in the greater entity of the G.L.C. There were no further elections for the L.C.C., but there were elections at the earliest possible moment, which was the spring of 1964, for both the G.L.C. and the London boroughs and there was a year while this vast change was worked out.
  My right hon. Friend the then Minister for Housing and Local Government, the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), put this forward on the Second Reading of the London Government Bill. It was not challenged or referred to throughout the whole of that debate, nor, with the exception of an Amendment on aldermen and the question of delaying the election, was it referred to in Committee. Nor was it referred to in all the long proceedings which we had—of which some were under the Guillotine, so that, perhaps, discussion could not be as full as Members wished.
  What happened then was done by agreement. What is to happen today is not by agreement—and that is what matters. What was done then was wholly sensible and the Opposition of the day did not criticise it, because it was sensible. It is not a question of making a party point. The Opposition agreed with what was being done at that particular time. The elections in 1963 were held at the earliest possible moment, and there was
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  no question of seeking to defer them, which is the position which we have before the House now.
  The other precedent, which the Home Secretary skipped over much more quickly, is the 1948 one. Mr. Chuter Ede, as he then was, when speaking in the Second Reading debate on 10th February, 1948, said:
  "We propose that after the election of these two bodies the years shall not be synchronised and the Metropolitan Councils to be elected in 1949 will stay until 1953. They will be elected for four years and thereafter the London County Council elections will take place in one year, and the Metropolitan Borough Council elections will take place 13 months afterwards."
  The important precedent was Mr. Chuter Ede's declared objective of having L.C.C. elections separate from the metropolitan borough elections, and that is precisely the objective which the Home Secretary has put before the House of Commons.
  The right way to do it is not to abandon the election, but to do as Mr. Chuter Ede, as he then was, proposed and carried in this House in 1948; that in the next election, if one wished to choose, the borough councillors should be elected for either two years or four years and that thereafter the elections should be triennial. This is exactly the point which was made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, when he said that the separation
  "… could simply and properly be done by altering the term for which borough councillors are elected in 1967 from three years to either two years or four years. The electors' rights would then be fully safeguarded."
  So the precedent of 1948 tells against the action that the Home Secretary is contemplating and for the alternatives that we will move in Committee—that either two years or four years, if a change has to be made, is the appropriate period for the borough council elections.
  I said earlier that I would say something about the comprehensive proposals in relation to my own Borough of Enfield. There is violent controversy in that borough over the plan for one-tier comprehensive schools in widely separated buildings. In the Spectator this week—and I have now nothing to do with this periodical, but I am sure that the Home Secretary still reads it—there is an article by Ralph Harris entitled, "How not to go comprehensive". It deals entirely

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  with the Enfield plan. Ralph Harris is a constituent of mine, and he is the Director of the Instiute of Economic Affairs.
  The point here is that this matter can, inevitably, only be decided at a political level. There is no question about that. Whatever may be the arguments, in the end the question of the future of children—and, of course, I take my example from my own constituency—in Enfield will depend on which party has the majority on the local council. But for this Bill, that matter would have been decided, certainly for these critical years, in the spring of 1967.
  I am quite certain that the Labour councillors are content with the Bill. I am quite certain that the two members of the Government—neither of whom is here at present, although the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. John Mackie) was here for the Home Secretary's speech—are content with this Bill, but what we ask is that the people should have the right to decide this, and that the Government should not take this right from them.
  Perhaps I may here quote from the Enfield Gazette of Friday, 28th October:
  "It now seems a virtual certainty that the London Government Bill, which will disenfranchise local voters for a year by putting off the borough elections until 1968, will become law. And once more the law will have been made to look an ass by this Labour Government."
  When the Home Secretary was responding on 28th April to the hon. Member for Orpington he said, at the end of their exchange:
  "However, to make the change requires legislation, which confronts us with considerable difficulties from the point of view of time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th April, 1966; Vol. 727, c. 927.]
  The right hon. Gentleman knows very well how short Parliamentary time is, and that there are a score of matters of the highest importance in the files and pigeonholes of the Home Office which the whole House would like to see brought forward. He knows very well that by taking the time of the House on a Measure of this nature he is pushing them further back; is, perhaps, making it impossible for some Measures which he and I would
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  like to see, to reach the Statute Book at an early date.
  The Home Secretary gave a list some time ago—or a list was worked out from his various comments. There is the question of maintenance orders and of fire legislation. We have no time for those matters, but we have time for this Bill. There is the question of finding time for ratifying the United Nations Genocide Convention—we cannot find time for that, but we can find time to upset the timing of the borough council elections next year.
  There is the question of the control of drugs. The first letter in The Times this morning is from Dr. Hawes, and is called "A Year After the Drugs Report". It is a passionate and angry plea for action by the Home Office in this field. Dr. Hawes has been given a fairly swift reply, has he not? What the Home Secretary has now said is, "The Government have no time to deal with the control of drugs until we have finished fiddling the date of the London borough elections".
  The Home Secretary, if I may say so, is justly admired for many Parliamentary qualities. I have been glad to share with him a number of non-political and non-parliamentary causes. Nevertheless, I think that he will live to regret this day's work—indeed, I suspect that he regrets it already, because he has proved himself to be sadly innocent.
  The right hon. Gentleman did not know anything like the story of what really happened in all those months before he came to the House and made this announcement. Almost any Labour—or Tory—Member of Parliament with a constituency anywhere near London could have told him. We know who the author of this Bill is. It is not the Home Secretary. It is not the Leader of the House. It is not the Minister of Housing and Local Government. It is the Chairman of the London Labour Party, who is the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish). I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman is not here this afternoon. This is his victory—we know that perfectly well. This is what the London Labour Party wishes to achieve.
  The Home Secretary has shown the House this afternoon that he knows nothing of what really happened. He has

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  allowed himself to become a front man for a very disreputable piece of backstairs manæuvring, and he knows that to be true. He has proceeded without agreement and against the particular precedents which he took pleasure in citing. He has given precious Parliamentary time to this very unhappy Bill to take people's rights away from them, rather than to the many important matters of social reform which are crowding in on his head at the Home Office. We will oppose this sordid Bill with all our strength.
  4.38 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Barnes: I cannot help feeling that a lot of the indignation we have heard expressed from the other side today has been very synthetic. The arguments put forward have not been at all convincing. The fact is that there is at present a great deal of confusion about local government in Greater London. When the Greater London Council elections took place in 1946 they were proceeded by a great deal of ballyhoo and publicity, and the electors got used to the idea that the council they were being called upon to elect—the Greater London Council—would probably be one of the largest and most powerful local authorities in the world.
  Since those elections in April, 1964, the Greater London Council, probably because it is so vast, has gradually and inevitably become not so close to the electors as are the borough councils. It has tended to recede. To the ordinary person living in Greater London—and certainly to the person living in any of the outer London boroughs—"the council" is the borough council, and not the Greater London Council.
  We have a situation, also, in which not many people in our constituencies would be able to name their London borough councillors, but even fewer could name their Greater London councillors—and we would have to go a long way before we could find people who could outline the rational division of functions and services between the Greater London Council and the new London boroughs.
  Surely there can be no doubt in this situation that there will be much less confusion if these two sets of elections take place, at the earliest opportunity, in different years, exactly as the Bill proposes.
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  This will be much better not only for the public, but also for the politicians engaged in the elections. The public will have a much better chance to bring their attention on one set of arguments in a given year. In 1967, they will be able to concentrate on the big and exciting plans of the G.L.C. for Greater London development, the control of traffic and motorways. In 1968, in the borough council elections, they will be able to concentrate on the vital local proposals for badly needed housing developments or the personal health services provided by the London boroughs.
  As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has said, I am sure that there is ample evidence that people are "fed up" with one set of elections coming on top of another. Rightly, I think, voters dislike being called upon to vote more frequently than they feel necessary. If they are to have local elections in April, they do not see why they should be called upon to turn out again in May. If the two elections are held on the same day, which was the original proposition, confusion is created because one is doing nothing to separate the two sets of arguments being put before the electors. One does nothing to get concentration of argument on the borough councils on the one hand, and on the G.L.C., on the other.
  Every hon. Member will agree that it is hard enough to raise resources and mount an effective campaign in local government and to get enough interest among the electors in one election, let alone for another immediately afterwards, and, even less, for two elections taking place on the same day. I do not know whether hon. Members have talked to their agents about this matter. I cannot believe that their party agents are as wildly enthusiastic about their arguments as they themselves seem to be. It is surely in the interests of good local government that the political parties should be able to mobilise as effective campaigns in local elections as possible. The great problem of local government is apathy. The figures of London elections are not as bad as those in the rest of the country, but are bad enough.
  In 1964, the average percentage poll for the new London boroughs was 35·7—not nearly as good as the 44·2 per cent. cast in the G.L.C. election that year.

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  Nevertheless, both figures were still very low and surely these local authorities are so large and so important that we should be doing all we can to create more interest in these elections and to raise the number of electors casting their votes.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: I do not think that there will be the slightest risk of there being apathy on 13th April, 1967, because my discussions with constituents and others leads me to the conclusion that the majority of Londoners are determined this time to get the Labour Party out of London government, which it has held for 33 wasted years.
  Mr. Barnes: I do not know about the question of creating more interest, but everything that the Labour Party puts forward here and elsewhere designed to create more interest in elections of this kind seems to be opposed by hon. Members opposite and their friends outside. Perhaps they base their opposition at the moment on the theory that the best way to get back on their feet is to oppose practically everything that is put forward.
  For example, surely everyone will agree that there is serious ignorance in London about the functions and services carried out by the G.L.C. and the boroughs. But when the G.L.C. put forward big proposals for an expanded information service, this was promptly opposed by the Conservative opposition on the G.L.C.—why, I am not sure because it is surely reasonable that the voters of London should have as much information as possible about the way that the considerable sums of money they pay in rates are being spent.
  Today, when we have before us the proposal to separate these two sets of elections, which is again something that will make it easier for the electors to concentrate on the essential interests before them, we have another Opposition attack. I cannot help thinking that this is all part of the same sort of clumsy strategy which the Opposition and their friends think will impress the voters of Greater London in time for the elections next April.
  The same sort of strategy has gone into the preparation of a booklet with the hoary old slogan, "Time for a change in Greater London". The only reason I mention it is that, if we are really serious
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  about trying to interest the electorate much more than they are interested at the moment in local affairs, and getting them to vote in larger numbers, there is a classic example in this booklet of how not to do it. The booklet contains a message from Mr. Desmond Plummer, leader of the Conservative opposition on the G.L.C., to the electors of London and a serious libel against education in the London area. It is, I believe, an insult to the very electors for whom hon. Members opposite are so anxious to preserve their democratic rights.
  At one moment, hon. Members opposite want to preserve democratic rights and in the next throw about insults like this. It is on page 13. Some statistics are quoted about the levels of education in schools and then there is a misleading piece under the phrase "school leavers" which, to practically everyone, means secondary school leavers but is used by Mr. Plummer in the sense of primary school leavers. This is compared with the statistics he quotes to give a totally misleading example of the standard of education provided in Greater London.
  We have not heard from the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) today charges of gerrymandering, although they have been mentioned in the Press in the last few days and elsewhere outside the House. The Opposition would do better to stop their friends outside from making the sort of statement that Mr. Plummer makes in his booklet rather than making charges of gerrymandering which do not stand up. If there has been any gerrymandering, it was done in the reorganisation of local government in London itself, although "gerrymandering" is perhaps too strong a word even for that.
  The reorganisation inherited from the last Government is not ideal. The outer London boroughs certainly tend to be too small for many of the services previously administered by counties and too big for many of the necessary local services which were previously administered so well by the old boroughs. But we are stuck with this reorganisation and now have to make it work. The Bill to separate the two sets of elections represents an entirely logical step in the direction of making the whole system work better.
  4.50 p.m.
  Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) achieved the considerable Parliamentary feat of making an election speech in support of the proposition that there should not be an election. His main contribution otherwise to the debate appeared to be that, at any rate in Brentford and Chiswick, there was some ignorance among the populace of the nature and appearance of their councillors.
  If the hon. Member be right, and I have no doubt that he is if he says it, I suggest to him that one of the best ways in which to get these councillors known to their fellow citizens is to have an election at which they can stand and put forward their cases and perhaps even show their faces. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has taken the argument very far, and I therefore turn to the Home Secretary.
  The Home Secretary rightly has the reputation of being, with the arguable exception of the Prime Minister—the Prime Minister would argue it, anyhow—the best debater on the Government Front Bench. In the light of that reputation, one must view his very unhappy speech this afternoon with very special significance. After the revelations by my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) of what really happened, I think that the House will look rather strangely at the right hon. Gentleman's speech about this careful analysis and examination of the administrative problems of town clerks and his powerful weighing-up of the advantages and disadvantages of having elections on the same day.
  All this was very agreeably done, but, as I think the House now realises, it was wholly unreal. What the right hon. Gentleman has to answer is how he justifies a proposal to continue for a further year the election of those who were elected to borough councils in 1964 and whose term of office is now not far from expiring. He can justify what is obviously a diminution of the rights of the electors only either by showing that there is general party agreement, or that there are such changes of area and reorganisation as to make it inevitable from a practical point of view. He did not attempt to establish either of those.
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  Nor did the right hon. Gentleman address himself, except for a passing reference, to the fact that if it were desired in future years to separate the G.L.C. from the borough council elections, it would be perfectly simple to do it by going forward with the elections for the boroughs this May and by enacting that those then elected should be elected for two years or, if he prefers, for four. In the case of the four-year alternative, that would follow precisely the precedent in a very similar situation set by Mr. Chuter Ede, Lord Chuter-Ede as he became, in the Representation of the People Act, 1948, a Measure which did not show an entirely meticulous disregard in other matters for the interests of the Labour Party.
  The right hon. Gentleman has done none of those things. All this argument about the disadvantages of combining elections on the same day is utterly irrelevant to what under the present law will happen next April and next May. The elections will be separated in any event by four weeks. It is only when we come to 1970, under the London Government Act, that they come together. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman does not this spring have to deal with the problems, of which he gave an admirable analysis, of combined elections, for they do not arise this spring.
  The practical issue which he must answer is why in the circumstances of the day he has come forward not with a proposal after, I would have thought, the inter-party discussion which is normal in these matters, for two or four-year terms for those to be elected, but quite unilaterally with this proposal to continue the elected life of these councillors for another year.
  The right hon. Gentleman's doing so involves sacrificing various social measures in the files of his Department. He must know that a Measure of this kind will be bitterly controversial and, quite properly, will take a certain amount of Parliamentary time. He is sacrificing those social Measures which he said at the Dispatch Box one afternoon last summer, as he may remember, included a variety of measures, which, he said with a charming smile, he fully favoured, but for which, he regretted, Parliamentary time could not be found. He has found Parliamentary time for this Measure.
  Mr. William Molloy: This is an interesting but "phoney" argument, because the Conservative Party, when making arrangements to destroy the L.C.C., gave that priority over the appalling problems of housing in London and of Rachmanism.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: This is an interesting diversion and I hope that I shall be allowed to follow it up. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) took the most energetic measures to deal with the lack of housing in London, as is well known. The answer to the somewhat prejudiced remarks about my right hon. Friend's actions in respect of the old L.C.C., is that those measures followed upon an independent Royal Commission which exhaustively examined the whole of the issues of local government in the Greater London area and proposed radical reforms. So far from not dealing with the housing problem, bringing the machinery of local government in Greater London up to date from its 1884 model must have been helpful rather than a hindrance.
  However, I shall not be diverted from the Home Secretary, who gave his own reasons for this Measure in the famous Answer to my Parliamentary Question of 4th August. Perhaps I may first take up a matter to which I referred in an intervention. There is no question but that the right hon. Gentleman misled the House on 4th August. There is equally no question but that he did so inadvertently. I think that he will recall the correspondence which I had with him, that I wrote to him on 8th August, and that it was in reply to that letter and not on his own initiative that he took any steps to put the matter right, by writing to me with a copy to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) to explain that on this matter I was right and he was wrong.
  I remind him that I ended my letter with this short paragraph:
  "If I am right about this then I think you will agree that your supplementary answer, particularly in the light of the terms of my original question, is misleading and should be cleared up."
  So far as I know, with the exception of a most courteous letter to me, the right hon. Gentleman has taken no steps to
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  explain to the House that he misled it on 4th August and even when he gave the accurate facts this afternoon, as he did, he did not apologise as he might have taken the opportunity to do for having given wrong information on 4th August.
  I come to the right hon. Gentleman's own reasons for the Bill. Asked the reason for these proposals, he said:
  "Because of the low polls which would be likely to result from two local government elections being held in successive months in 1967; and because of the administrative difficulties and the risk of confusion to the electors likely to result from elections for both tier authorities being held on the same day in later years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th August, 1966; Vol. 733, c. 667.]
  The latter point is wholly irrelevant to this issue, as I have already said. The first is not sustained by the facts. My right hon. Friend has given the figures for percentages of polls when elections have been held together and when they have been separated, and they do not sustain the right hon. Gentleman's argument. I do not know on what he bases it. The only possible support is to be found in the recent falling-off of Labour support, but perhaps that is not a matter for which my right hon. Friends are responsible, except in so far as their advocacy has been so effective.
  Let us dissect this issue. There is no physical or practical necessity for doing it this way. There is no party agreement. What the right hon. Gentleman is doing in these circumstances is simply to keep in office and authority, by the use of the Government's majority in the House of Commons, councillors whose mandate would expire on 11th May, next year.
  This is something wrong in principle. The right hon. Gentleman referred to precedents, both of which have been blown out of the water. I can provide him with a precedent, although I have to go back 250 years for it. The right hon. Gentleman is an eminent historian and he will appreciate that the only germane precedent is the debates of 1716 on the Septennial Act. Professor Grant Robinson in Selected Statutes, Cases and Documents, comments that
  "there can be little doubt that the Ministry, in passing the Act, were influenced primarily by the political situation and not by the theoretical or practical constitutional benefits urged on behalf of a change in the law."
  This shows how little things change in this country of ours. I would like to

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  read an extract from the splendid protest put forward by 31 peers at the time, including names which are familiar, I am delighted, to say, in our political life of today. The protest said:
  "Because it is agreed, that the House of Commons must be chosen by the people, and when so chosen, they are truly the representatives of the people, which they cannot be so properly said to be, when continued for a longer time than that for which they were chosen; for after that time they are chosen by the Parliament, and not the people, who are thereby deprived of the only remedy which they have against those, who either do not understand, or through corruption, do wilfully betray the trust deposed in them; which remedy is to choose better men in their places."
  That is exactly appropriate, 250 years later, to the state of affairs in London.
  There is the crucial issue of secondary education and its organisation. The House agrees that this is crucial, and with this agreement, surely this issue should not be decided by one single body whose political complexion is determined not by free elections, but by the intervention of external legislation? Whatever view one takes, and I am not a fanatic one way or the other on the difficult question of comprehensive education, the local will should be ascertained properly at elections in the boroughs where these decisions will have to be taken in the coming year.
  It is no coincidence that this action by the Home Secretary is being taken in respect of the year 1967–68, which will be; decisive in the sphere of secondary education reorganisation. I cannot believe that hon. Members opposite who feel, and I acknowledge it, a passionate enthusiasm for comprehensive education, would like to think that it had been introduced in a borough as the result of a political trick. They would like to feel that it had been introduced, if it be introduced, upon the basis of fair and open elections at normal times, with a free vote for those whose interests are at issue.
  In 1966, it was not a major issue, but it would be in 1967 if the right hon. Gentleman allows people to vote on it. This is not just a question of education. There are London boroughs in which it is essential to determine the will of the people as quickly as possible. Take Camden, on the management of whose housing the district auditor has recently
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  reported, and drawn the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Housing and Local Government to the fact that the ratepayers are contributing by way of a subsidy in respect of dwellings more than council tenants are contributing by way of rent.
  It may be that Camden wants to run its affairs this way. It may be that it does not. Should not the electors have their normal opportunity to decide this? Take Camden again, where the dominant Labour Party has set up a committee, served by the officers of the council, confined solely to members of the Labour Party, and with every member of the minority party excluded. It seems to me that to use officials, employed at the cost of the ratepayers, for this purpose is an abuse. Again, Camden may take a different view, and all that I am saying is that the people of the borough should be given the opportunity to express their views.
  A further example is Havering, where, as the House knows, there has been every sort of difficulty on the council, where the leader of the Labour Party and another councillor had to be ejected by the police on the instructions of the mayor because of their efforts to bring local government to a standstill. Surely the people of Havering are entitled to pronounce on the way that they want matters conducted in their name?
  I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman, and it is the more surprising in view of his background and intellectual gifts, has appreciated what a serious thing it is, save by agreement, or under the stress of compelling practical necessity, to extend by legislation, the term for which people were originally elected. The right hon. Gentleman seemed not to understand that distinction when he referred to what Mr. Chuter Ede did in 1949, when he said that there he had provided that people should be elected for four years. Of course, but people knew at the time that they were electing them that they were electing them for four years and not for three. That is the distinction, and the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, of all people, should not appreciate that distinction, with the acute-ness of mind which we all admire in him, is one of the most surprising features of this debate.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: Why does the right hon. Gentleman think that there is necessarily any party political advantage in the postponement of these elections? Surely, in these mercurial times, the opposite might well turn out to be the truth?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is very easy to answer the hon. Lady. If she has any doubts about this let her hold the elections. If she wants evidence as to what has actuated her right hon. Friend let me remind her of what has been happening in council by-elections these last few weeks. In Croydon, on 3rd November, the Labour vote fell from 1,273 to 358, in Greenwich the Labour vote fell from 1,446 to 881, in Redbridge it fell from 2,685 to 1,402.
  If the hon. Lady, after those figures, has any doubts as to the wisdom of her friends in the London Labour Party seeking to postpone the election, then—and I am sorry that she should entertain such undisciplined thoughts—let her go to them and say that in view of the way in which the situation has developed, in the face of the breakdown of the Home Secretary's argument this afternoon, they should withdraw their request, and ask the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Bill. If she will do that and hold the elections in May, then the dispute between us can be resolved in the proper democratic way, by the votes of the people.
  Mrs. Jeger: The trend which the right hon. Gentleman has suggested, in reading out those figures, would lead one to suppose that the Labour Party was seriously disadvantaging itself by allowing a further postponement of the elections.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It suggests that the Labour Party has every reason to seek to avoid an election next May, because it knows that it will lose a lot of boroughs then. Equally it knows, for the reasons I have given, how important, in the broadest sense, power in these boroughs will be in the year in issue. That is why this is happening and the hon. Lady knows this perfectly well.
  I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West said about the Home Secretary's part in this. It is unhappy to see him involved in a squalid compact with the bosses of the London Labour Party, over a measure whose
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  main political purpose is now perfectly apparent for all to see. The right hon. Gentleman is not, as he knows, at the moment the blue-eyed boy of the boys in blue, but the right hon. Gentleman will be the mascot of the London Labour Party junta. That is a poor consolation for a Home Secretary; it is a poor compensation for the holder of one of the greatest and most honourable of the offices held under the Crown, and I hope that even now the right hon. Gentleman will see that his own personal dignity, the standing of the Government and the standing of Parliament will be best served if he would take the courageous step of withdrawing the Bill.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: I listened with great interest to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. It was a very good, well-argued speech.
  Mr. Iain Madeod Mr. Iain Madeod indicated dissent.
  Mr. Weitzman: The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) shakes his head. Somebody described my right hon. Friend's speech as unhappy. I saw no signs of unhappiness on my right hon. Friend's face. He made a well-reasoned speech, deserving of examination in detail by the Opposition.
  What have we had from the Opposition? I listened very carefully trying to keep as open a mind as I could—it is very difficult when listening to hon. Members opposite—and to find a logical argument put forward by the Opposition. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West has a suspicious mind. He is always looking for something suspicious. Why cannot he see the logic of this Bill and the arguments in favour of it? He used such words as "a backstairs manoeuvre". He tried to work himself up into a state of indignation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) said, it was obviously synthetic indignation.
  It ill becomes hon. Members opposite to use words about this Measure like "a backstairs manoeuvre" or "gerrymandering". I had the pleasure of being present—sometimes I do not know whether it was a pleasure—when the London Government Bill was debated on Second Reading. I served on the Committee which considered the Bill.

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  The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) made a mistake when he referred to an Amendment about aldermen. I think that I supported him on that. At any rate, he gave me a good deal of support in the opposition which we voiced against the then Government. If ever there was gerrymandering and backstairs manoeuvring, it was the London Government Bill, 1963. If ever there was a waste of time instead of attention being paid to housing and matters which really counted, it was that Bill.
  The right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) talked about his right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and the wonderful work which he did in housing. What a statement to make when one remembers the Rent Act, 1957, when the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and what happened afterwards.
  All that we have had from the Opposition is accusation, suspicion and the suggestion that there was something behind the Bill, not reasoned arguments.
  Mr. Iremonger: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman should explain whether the strictures which he is passing on my right hon. Friends concerning the London Government Act, 1963, extend to the Royal Commission's Report, in whose precise terms the Act was framed.
  Mr. Weitzman: The House has heard what I said in criticising what was said by the two Opposition speakers. I think that that criticism was well justified. I suggest to the hon. Member that if he carefully reads HANSARD, analyses their speeches and looks for a logical argument on the Bill, he will see that my criticism was well justified.
  I wish to deal with the Bill on the basis of reasoned argument. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West wondered whether the London Labour Party went behind the scenes and made representations. I have not the faintest idea what the London Labour Party did, but I am sure that if it made representations they were not of the kind put forward by the right hon. Gentleman but were reasoned, logical arguments. It is no good hon. Members opposite smiling. We
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  are here to discuss the matter logically, not with suspicion. I wish to put forward a logical argument on why the Bill should be supported.
  I do not know how much experience the right hon. Members for Enfield, West and Kingston-upon-Thames have concerning London County Council elections, Greater London Council elections or borough council elections. I have experienced a good many of them. I have seen how the machinery of them works. Is it genuinely suggested that if we have G.L.C. and borough council elections on the same day we shall have a satisfactory result? Let us think of the matter seriously. After all, we are trying to give a real opportunity to the G.L.C. and the borough councils to hold elections on a proper basis, and we want to ensure that as many citizens as possible vote.
  If the elections are held on the same day, think of what it means, first, from the point of view of voting.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: If that be a problem—and it may be—does not the hon. and learned Gentleman realise that it does not arise until 1970 and that it is quite irrelevant to the proposal before us today?
  Mr. Weitzman: I am sorry, but I propose to deal with both possibilities—a combined election and elections with a month or so in between—and to show how stupid it is to suggest that it could be done from a practical point of view.
  A combined election would obviously be completely unworkable. There would be a list of candidates for the G.L.C. and a long list of candidates for the county borough elections. The poor electors would not know where they were. There would be difficulty about the administrative machinery. There would be a poor poll and the electors would be very mixed up.
  Suppose that there is a month or so between the G.L.C. election and the borough council elections. I hope that hon. Members opposite realise what a toll it is on the patience, industry and energy of electors when they have to face elections held with an interval of a month or so in between them. They do not like it. They will not go to the polls. There is every ground for apathy. It is bad enough when a General Election is

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  followed by a by-election in a constituency. One knows how electors feel about that situation. That again is unworkable.
  What does the Bill propose? It simply puts the matter on a sound administrative basis. One need not be suspicious about it. One can recognise that the machinery will work. It sets out the dates and the intervals at which elections will take place and it gives the electors a proper opportunity of dealing with the matter. We should remember that electors must have the opportunity of discussing things and of recording their votes.
  I beg the Opposition to look at the matter dispassionately. Let them try to rid their minds of suspicion. My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) raised a very important point which should appeal to hon. Members opposite. Why does it follow that if we postpone the election for a year hon. Members opposite will not get what they want? Are they absolutely certain that they will be defeated then? I expect that they are. But surely they should put a good face on it. Let them try to appear to be optimistic. They know that they will be beaten next year. Are they optimistic enough to think that they may be beaten the year after? They may not be. Who knows? They live in hope. Let them have another year in which they can put forward their case about suspicion and criticism of the Government and in which they can attack the Government. There is hope for them, is there not?
  Why, therefore, this criticism of one year's delay? Perhaps the reason is that it is opposition for opposition's sake and that the only reason for the suspicion of hon. Members opposite is that they themselves have been so guilty of gerrymandering that they cannot believe that we are giving them an honest deal.
  5.20 p.m.
  Wing Commander Sir Eric Bullus: I join issue at once with the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) and with his hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes), both of whom said that they consider the speech of their right hon.
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  Friend the Home Secretary a good one. I presume to think mat it was a very poor speech. The Home Secretary's case was not justified at all. Whatever has been said in defence or otherwise, the fact remains that at the end of the day—to quote the Prime Minister's favourite expression—this postponement is for political party ends.
  The Home Secretary—I am sorry that he it not in his place; I recognise that he must have his tea break—is the head of a great Department administering justice and fair-mindedness. People look to that Department. The right hon. Gentleman is a member of a Government with a huge majority. Should he not bend backwards to appear fair rather than lend himself to this squalid manoeuvre? The Home Secretary bases his case on the advice that has been given to him by his administrative experts, and yet, when it suits him, as in the case of the Wembley re-warding, he ignores the advice of his experts. That argument, therefore, falls to the ground.
  The Government and hon. Members opposite know in their hearts that this postponement will advantage the Labour Government and the Labour Party. There is no question of the advisability of having elections in alternate years. Of course, a case can be made for that, but not for postponement when these councils were elected for three years.
  During the few minutes that I intend to speak, I propose to deploy similar arguments to those used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) but in relation to my part of the country. I hope to show how a postponement of these elections would give tremendous political advantage to the Labour-controlled council of the London Borough of Brent. In revealing this, I will also show something of what Socialism and a Socialist Government have meant to Wembley. Before Wembley was merged, unhappily—[HON. MEMBERS: "By the hon. and gallant Gentleman's own Government."] I agree. I voted 18 times against my own Government. I fought the merger tooth and nail, with my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell). The hon. Members who represented Willesden did not want it either, but it took place.

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  Before the merger, Wembley had the lowest rate in the country. Wembley's municipal housing was in balance. It had a differential rent scheme. It was a very desirable place. It is very different today. The Labour-dominated Brent Council wanted to be the first in the Greater London area to have comprehensive education. It put forward the most hotchpotch scheme, as the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, will agree. He had to reject it.
  Wembley was a preponderantly Tory area. We were merged with an area half as big again which was solidly Labour. We did not have a chance at the election. We fought and we did very well. The Socialists took all the aldermanic seats. I do not complain. They have taken them; they have set a precedent. They may be taken away at a future date. It is very hard to win seats, but we are winning them at by-elections. Therefore, the London Borough of Brent desired to postpone the elections. It has a hotchpotch comprehensive scheme. The delay will give it a further year to get it settled.
  Even before the merger, the council had written to householders in my constituency asking whether they were prepared to sell their houses. The Council bought a few, probably at exorbitant prices. When Brent Council was formed, it slapped compulsory purchase orders on all the other houses and destroyed existing schemes for political ends. There is bitterness in Wembley. There has been an inquiry, but even before its result is known a second phase of compulsory purchase has been announced.
  The Labour-controlled Brent Council decided to re-ward, and it has re-warded the whole of Brent. The Tories naturally objected because this scheme suits the Socialist majority. The Home Secretary appointed a commission. Strangely enough, the commissioner was the same one who was appointed at Northampton. He recommended that the Council should do nothing and that the status quo should be maintained. Then, unfortunately, no doubt because of Northampton, he added that if there had to be a change, he preferred the Socialist scheme to the Tory scheme.
  The Home Secretary now rejects the advice of his administrative expert because it suits him and the Labour Party. He
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  has decided to do away with the status quo and to have the Labour scheme. If the elections are postponed for 12 months, the Brent Borough Council can re-ward the area with the new wards. Without postponement, there would not be time to do it. One therefore sees the advantage for the Labour-controlled Borough of Brent; and so I could go on.
  The Home Secretary is a respected man. It is rather tragic that he is to be associated with this squalid deal, for it is a squalid deal. He may not have known it. He ought to have known. There is only one thing he can do, and that is to withdraw the Bill or resign.
  5.27 p.m.
  Mr. Roland Moyle: I rise to give some support to the Bill. We have had a great deal of attempts, both inside the Chamber this afternoon and outside on previous occasions, to import a certain amount of political heat into the discussion, but for the life of me I cannot understand why. I support the Bill as a party worker in the Greenwich constituency for a number of years, as a councillor of the London Borough of Greenwich until September this year and from my general experience which I have achieved as a result.
  The Bill is a rational, moderate alteration in the system of government which we have in London, the effects of which will be very short-lived. After the alteration has been made, the system will settle down to a steady pattern over the years and in a very short time people who look back to HANSARD will wonder what was the reason for the storm, heat, fury and emotion of this afternoon and for the speech of the Leader of the Opposition on 24th October.
  It is a good thing to have differing views on these subjects, but let us have a little temperate language about them when we express them, particularly on an issue which is extremely modest. I always try to be fair to my opponents. For that reason, I was disappointed, but not really surprised, when the Leader of the Opposition, speaking elsewhere on 24th October, came out with a passionate denunciation of this modest little Bill of two or three Clauses and called it a squalid Measure. "Gerrymandering" was another word used by the right hon.

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  Gentleman. He really went to town on it.
  If it is not too presumptuous on the part of a new Member to comment, the thing about the right hon. Gentleman is that, although he has integrity and ability, his political antennae often quiver in a small black technocratic box where the writ of the ordinary man in the street does not run. In other words, he lacks judgment, and he has gone wrong once again. He has no appreciation of what goes on at the grass roots of politics. If he ever had any activities in that sphere, he forgot about it a long time ago. He has gone wrong on this issue, as he has on many other issues, solely for that reason.
  It is an issue which is not one of principle between hon. Gentlemen opposite and hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) were both agreed that there is a lot to be said for staggering county elections and borough elections. It is purely a question of machinery, therefore, how we are to achieve the staggering. In London we have always been used to a pattern of having our borough elections in one year, our county council elections in the following year, and having a year off in the year after that. That has been the pattern for a great many years in London, and it is one to which I should like to see us return. The question is how we are to do it.
  I am prompted to say that there is a thought here upon which we might ponder. Many countries have no difficulty at all in producing any number of professional politicians that one cares to mention at the drop of a hat. What is not exactly unique in this country but one of its major characteristics is that we can produce a tremendous number of people who, without seeking any reward for themselves, are willing to turn out and work in the democratic process of local government in Parliamentary and county council elections. We all know them. They are the people who man committee rooms, lick stamps, address envelopes, deliver literature and go round knocking on doors. When polling day comes, they bring the electors to the poll
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  in their cars and encourage them to come forth. They are Conservatives, Liberals and members of the Labour Party. They are Communists, even. They come from all walks of life, and they are very important people because they are the links between the elected representatives who sit on councils and in Parliament and the mass of the electorate.
  I would go so far as saying that the chief experience of the average voter of a party political machine is not necessarily a personal call by the candidate during a Parliamentary, county or borough election. It is a call by one of these voluntary party workers. Those are the people whom we should cherish and look after. We should not try to break their backs by overworking them.
  That is the main reason why I advocate a return to the old pattern of elections in the Greater London Council area, which was upset by the introduction of the London Government Act that started to operate in the spring of 1964. During that year, I was president of the Greenwich Labour Party, and I sometimes think that my nerves have not yet recovered from the fact that we had the Greater London Council elections in April, the borough council elections in May and, on top of those, a General Election in the October of that year. That is something which may happen again, and it means that the ordinary voluntary party worker has to give up about a month of his spare evenings to go out and help his side on each occasion. In 1964, a very large number of voluntary party workers in constituencies all over London must have given up nearly three months of spare evenings in order to support their local candidates. I submit that that is a burden which we ought not to put upon our voluntary workers.
  I do not say that the voluntary worker should govern the system by which we consult the people of this country, but they are a very important factor to take into consideration. They have not received any mention from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and only my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) was good enough to mention them as a factor to be taken into consideration.
  Having established that, the fact remains that the right hon. Member for

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  Bexley (Mr. Heath) produced a scheme which he thought would be preferable to the one which my right hon. Friend has put forward in this Bill. It was that the councillors retiring in 1967 should be elected either for two years or four years. He saw no difference between those two proposals. I should have thought, particularly as he was putting forward these proposals as a way of safeguarding the interests of the electorate, according to The Times of 25th October, that there was quite a considerable difference in principle between the two points. I should have been prepared to see, if it were possible, that the borough councillors elected in 1964 retired in 1966 and were elected for three-year periods thereafter. But that was asking much too much of the councils.
  Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are largely responsible, above all, for the London Government Act. We on this side opposed it. Do not let us go over old arguments again, but it caused a colossal upheaval in the system of government in London. On top of the introduction of the new system of government and the difficult period of the reorganisation in 1966, to ask local borough councils to accept the extra burden of London borough elections would have set back the reorganisation by another six or twelve months. It would have compounded confusion with chaos, and I suggest that that was not a practicable situation.
  Therefore, we are faced with some other alternative, and the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that would safeguard the interests of the electorate by ensuring that, from 1967 onwards, councillors for London boroughs would be elected only once every four years instead of once every three, does not show that fine regard for consulting the electorate which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have endeavoured to put forward this afternoon.
  I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Enfield, West has left the Chamber. If he is trying to get us to believe that we must postpone these elections from 1966 to 1967 in order to ensure that comprehensive education is accepted in London, he will have to think a lot harder. The obvious fact is that the majority of the electorate in the Greater
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  London area want comprehensive education, and postponing the elections from 1966 to 1967 will not save the right hon. Gentleman having to answer that point.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: No doubt inadvertently, the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle) has twice referred to a postponement from 1966 to 1967. I am sure that he means the postponement which is proposed, from 1967 to 1968.
  Mr. Moyle: I thank the right hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) for drawing my attention to that slip of the tongue. He is quite right. The postponement to which I am referring is that from 1967 to 1968.
  The right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) was endeavouring to summon up some courage and optimism about the prospects of elections in the future by quoting some election figures which apparently he has got hold of. I endeavoured to intervene to ask him about them, so that I could point out the error of his ways. One of the constituencies which he mentioned was the ward which I repesented on the London Borough of Greenwich until September of this year. It is quite obvious that there are two reasons why the Labour vote fell on that occasion. Modesty forbids my mentioning the first reason, but the second reason is that the people in that are are not at all interested in by-elections. I can assure right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that, when it comes to the general borough elections, whether they are in 1967 or 1968, that ward will turn out, and the Labour councillor who represents it will be top of the poll in the Greenwich borough elections, just as I was in 1964.
  Mr. Hogg: The hon. Gentleman should, in all candour, admit that the reluctance to vote at elections is confined to Labour voters, because in the recent by-election to which my right hon. Friend referred the Conservative vote went up.
  Mr. Moyle: It is still not good enough. I am talking about one particular ward in the London Borough of Greenwich on which the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames was pinning his hopes of a major election victory for the Conservatives, and I am telling the

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  right hon. Gentleman—and I am speaking from my knowledge and experience—that if that is all that he can rely on, there is not much hope for him, and that what right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to be doing this afternoon is suggesting that we postpone elections in London for all time.
  The right hon. Member for Enfield, West suggested that what he regarded as this sinister Measure originated from the Grenwich Labour Party, or at least from the London Borough of Greenwich. I was serving on the Greenwich Council when this supposedly sinister Measure was put forward. Our reasons for putting it forward were purely and simply in the interests of staggering the overlap between the G.L.C. elections and the London borough elections. As we come under the inner London education authority, we were not in the slightest interested in the pros and cons of comprehensive education. We have it in our part of London, and we are not interested in electoral advantage, because Greenwich is highly unlikely to go the way of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman said that he was not interested in electoral advantage because Greenwich was not likely to go against his party. Is that the only reason?
  Mr. Moyle: I was thinking that, for practical purposes, it was patently obvious that Greenwich was not the sort of London borough which would be concerned with electoral advantage, because the proportional representation on the council is about 10 to 12 Conservatives to about 50 Labour councillors. In view of the hon. Gentleman's interruption, I should like to take the opportunity of saying in all matters of this sort I never think of electoral advantage. I think that it is proof prositive in view of the figures that I have given that the London Borough of Greenwich is unlikely to be concerned with considerations of electoral advantages.
  Perhaps I might sum up my comments. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are making an awful lot of fuss about nothing in particular. I am sure that this is being done to keep crusty Con-
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  servative Party local association chairmen happy with the thought that their London representatives are carrying on a desperate battle on their behalf, and I think that that is the kind of spirit with which we should greet the remarks of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Rossi: As a new Member in the House, I am always grateful to those who have been here longer than I have for any lessons which they may give in the practices and techniques of the House. Today I am indeed grateful to the Home Secretary—and I am sorry that he is not here to hear me say this—for the lesson which he has given us in how to construct a case and an argument where no case and argument really exist, and to do so when, quite plainly, he has no intellectual confidence in the argument which he is seeking to put forward.
  The right hon. Gentleman started very well by saying that he hoped that this would be a non-controversial Measure, and that there was no need for party politics to rear its ugly head. Having said that, he proceeded to inject party politics into the discussion by referring to the position in Kent, Essex, and Sussex in 1964, and then commenting on the presence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), and the part which they were likely to play in this debate.
  What really caused me to think a great deal was the interchange between the two Front Benches about whether, on earlier occasions, the Home Secretary really meant a change, or the change. We were entering into realms of great sophistry, of which the Home Secretary is really a past master in this Chamber, and this type of sophistry, the blurring of this distinction between "a change" and "the change", was the fabric of his argument today for this Measure, because he put forward as his main contention for bringing it forward the great confusion which was likely to arise if the G.L.C. elections and the borough elections were held on the same day.
  The right hon. Gentleman brought in aid the reports of returning officers, in which they said that there would be

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  great administrative confusion, there would be great difficulties over postal votes, there would be great difficulties about voting lists, and the poor electors would be in a complete whirl not knowing whether they were voting for borough councillors or G.L.C. councillors, if the elections took place on the same day.
  Having posited that argument, the right hon. Gentleman went on to say, very generously, that of course there are other arguments the other way, which he did not specify, and the two lines of argument are very evenly balanced, either for having elections on the same day or for not having them on the same day.
  Having disposed of that, the right hon. Gentleman then introduced this Bill, under which the elections are to be held in separate years. He then dealt with the argument about whether the elections should be held in different months in the same year. He put forward for saying that they should not be held in different months in the same year his case against having them on the same day. He did this so brilliantly that by the time he had finished speaking everyone accepted his argument for not having elections on the same day as an argument for not having them in the same year, and on this I compliment the right hon. Gentleman.
  We must, however, clear our minds on this matter, and understand and appreciate what we are talking about. We are talking about whether we should have G.L.C. and borough elections in different months in 1967 or not. This is what we are talking about, and nothing else. We are; not talking about confusing the electors by having all the names on one list. We are not talking about the difficulties over postal votes because the elections are on the same day. We are talking about whether or not these elections should be in the same year.
  The moment we appreciate that that is the point at issue, all the arguments which have been constructed or put forward from the other side, with the exception of one, and I shall come to that in a moment, fall to the ground. The one argument which stands is the argument of sympathy towards our party workers. This is the only argument which remains, that it is imposing on
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  party workers the great burden of having to fight two different elections within the short space of one month.
  I am the first to acknowledge how much I owe to party workers. I should like to see their burden made as light as possible. But we are not here to consider the willingness or unwillingness of voluntary workers; we are considering the rights of the electorate, and this should be our prime consideration. What we have to decide is whether it is right to disfranchise the people of London for a further year in the circumstances that will obtain in that year. I invite the House to consider the question whether it is right to disfranchise the people of London for one year—
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
  House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
  Mr. Rossi: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley) for bringing a greater audience to listen to me. I am amazed to see the rapidity with which it is now disappearing, however. This shows the great interest of hon. Members opposite—or perhaps I ought to say the shame of hon. Members opposite—in this measure.
  I was about to embark upon the question of the importance of 1967 as an election year vis-à-vis the newly constituted London boroughs. We all know that in 1963–64, as a result of the London Government Act, a great change took place in the structure of local government in the Greater London area, when the two-tier system as we knew it was dismantled and larger, all-purpose borough authorities were created.
  That had two important effects. First, for the ratepayers it meant that a new type of organisation was dealing with their affairs and, secondly, for councillors it meant a most important change, because many of them had to deal with a type of organisation to which they were not completely accustomed, and an area far larger than they had been dealing with in the past. They found themselves dealing with districts unfamiliar to them. There was an increase in the amount of paper work with which they had to deal, and a great increase in the number of committees on which they had to serve and the powers that they had to exercise.

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  I have found among councillors of both political parties disappointment in the work that they are having to do. For years they have been accustomed to a certain type of work in which they have been able to have an intimate concern in matters of great detail affecting their immediate localities. They are no longer able to do this, and some of them do not like the change. They do not want to do this type of work. They want to pull out. Many Greater London councillors of both parties do not have the same interest that they had in their previous work.
  These men and women are being compelled to remain in office, working in a lukewarm fashion. They do not want to force their authorities into by-elections, so they continue to serve. This is the first consideration that we should have in mind. I see the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald) shaking his head. I ask him to talk to his local councillors and ask them to speak frankly about this matter. He will find that what I am saying is correct. I am speaking from personal knowledge, being a councillor myself.
  Mr. A. H. Macdonald: I am also a local councillor, and I have no such experience. I am not aware of the feeling to which the hon. Member refers.
  Mr. Molloy: It is found amongst the Tories.
  Mr. Rossi: I can only say that in the part of London that I know the situation is as I have explained. There is a reluctance among councillors of both parties to bring about a by-election, and that is compelling some of them to continue to serve in this new type of authority and this experiment in local government, about which they are not happy. This is not to say that the experiment itself is not worth while. But the people to whom I have referred, who would like to pull out quickly, are being denied the opportunity to do so by the Bill.
  The next question concerns the ratepayers. They have seen tremendous changes in their localities—changes in the way in which some services have developed from a county council to a borough council; changes in the administrative system that has been built up in their town halls in different ways in different areas—some wastefully and some less
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  wastefully. In some cases they have seen a change in the political future. They have seen changes on which, after three years, they would like an opportunity to express their opinion. This opportunity, again, is being denied them—or is being postponed.
  I speak feelingly of my own constituency, where many dramatic changes have taken place, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West has spoken of the position concerning aldermanic seats in his borough, where there is a delicate balance between the parties. There is no such delicate balance in Haringey; the ratio between the political parties is 2 to 1, and there can be no question of packing the aldermanic bench in order to see that local government is kept going forward smoothly without the risk, if people are ill, or absent for other reasons, of the vote going the wrong way in committee and the decision having to be reversed in the council.
  Despite this, 10 aldermanic seats were taken away and given to Labour. This process has been carried through not only in my council—where there is no excuse for the situation because there is already a vast majority—but in voluntary organisations. These are being packed out by councillors of the party opposite, and, where they cannot find councillors to do the job, by local Labour Party members who have had no local authority experience at all. The other voluntary workers in my constituency resent this and want an opportunity to vote upon this state of affairs quickly. They also want an opportunity to comment upon the library services, which have been all but ruined by the new administration. They want the opportunity to comment upon their rates, which, since the Conservative administration went out in 1964, have risen from 7s. 9d. in the £ to 12s. 6d. in the £ today as the result of the putting forward of Labour Party policies—the dismantling of the differential rent schemes and the building up of a tremendous bureaucratic empire in the way in which the national Government is building up the Civil Service in Whitehall and about which we have put Question after Question in the House.
  On all these matters, people in my constituency want to exercise their vote without delay. They do not want to be

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  put in the hopeless and frustrating position of seeing this state of affairs continue without an opportunity of having a say in the matter. They do not want this to happen. I know that I am speaking on their behalf when I say that they wish to go to the polls in May or April next year to vote upon the way in which their local affairs have been administered in the past three years and not to post pone it for another year—
  Mr. Molloy: I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's incredible argument. I do not wish to comment on the ghastly slur which he cast on people—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—oh, yes: The hen. Member can read it in HANSARD. The argument which he was submitting to the House was that councillors do not wish to carry on for another year, but, at the same time, he says, other people are complaining that they cannot get on committees to carry out so much work. The hon. Gentleman is trying to have it both ways.
  Mr. Rossi: The hon. Gentleman obviously misunderstood the argument or was not listening attentively enough. I was trying to say that a number of councillors, used to one kind of service in the past, have, in a sense of public spirit, continued on the new council, but have found the work by no means the same. They wish to give it up, but are being obliged to carry on for another year. As this was so much an innovation, a novelty, an experiment, they should be given an opportunity of doing so as early as possible. This was my argument and I put it no higher.
  I invite the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) to speak to councillors in local authorities throughout the Greater London area. If he does so, he will find considerable support for my contention.
  But this is not the whole argument by any means; it is only one aspect of it. The denial of electoral rights is something to which I attach much greater importance. I have tried to give some reasons why, certainly in my constituency, it is highly desirable—and wanted—that they should be able to exercise these rights early next spring and not have them postponed for another year.
  This brings me to another aspect of the matter, which has already been mentioned
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  and canvassed this afternoon—education and the question of comprehensive schools. Again, I have no strong feelings either way on this subject. I recognise the value of purpose-built comprehensive schools in certain localities. I feel that they would have a useful function within our educational system.
  However, throughout the Greater London area, schemes are being prepared upsetting the arrangements of existing schools. One recognises that a school is not merely an organisation but a living organism and that anyone who tampers with it does so at his peril. One sees proposals throughout the area for linking schools some distance apart and sticking a label on them. One sees all the turmoil or reorganisation taking place in our educational system which, for the past three years, has been taking place throughout local government in the Greater London area.
  We all know the great unhappiness that a great deal of the reorganisation in local government has caused and the great teething troubles there are. This will happen now in education. Many parents are unhappy about it. Without saying whether it is right or wrong for a particular scheme to be put into effect, what I do say is right is that the parents of the children affected by that scheme should be given the opportunity to state in the polling booths whether or not they are in favour of that scheme for their children.
  It may be decided that this is the scheme they want. If so, all well and good. Let them say so. They may not like it. Equally, let them say so. But we should not deliberately put off elections for a whole year so that the scheme is a fait accompli before the parents have a right to any say whatever.
  This is completely untenable and this is the sole purpose of the Bill—[Interruption.] I see the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, both grinning widely. They agree with what I have said and they are grinning in sympathy. They know, and we know, that this is precisely why this Measure has been brought forward. We have heard that it is not really the decision of the Home Secretary but the decision of the London Co-ordinating Committee of the Labour

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  Party, a committee constituted quite properly to further its party's best interests.
  No doubt this committee does its work extremely efficiently and well, but an organisation there to further its own party's interests is not the best organisation to bring forward electoral reform and electoral Measures to this House. We have seen this afternoon the chain of connection between the decision of that body, in November, 1965, to the appearance of the Bill here today. We are told that we must not become emotional on this subject or use such terms as "gerrymandering". But there are no doubt other terms which describe the situation equally graphically. One may take one's pick and use any of them which one wishes.
  The fact remains that this is a most iniquitous Measure, designed to deny to the electorate of London their right to pronounce, in a crucial year, their decision on a number of vital matters affecting the administration of their local government and the future education of their children. As such, I deplore this Measure and I feel it a great shame that a man such as the Home Secretary is said to be—I do not know him personally—should bring forward a Measure of this kind.
  6.9 p.m.
  Mr. Reginald Freeson: I must confess that I can summon up no enthusiasm for the kind of huffing and puffing to which we are treated in the House when we discuss matters of local government and democracy. I do not refer only to this debate, but to previous discussions on this theme in connection with the London Government Bill some years ago and on other occasions.
  I may come back to this question, but I would start by saying that I had no intention of coming into the debate but came along at first only to act as a kind of "watchdog" on the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North (Sir E. Bullus), suspecting that he might have a few things to say about his borough, part of which I also represent. I notice that our other colleagues on both sides of the House are with us today to listen to the debate.
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  My suspicion was well founded and, before making some general comments about the debate so far, I wish to deal with some of the arguments adduced by the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North, particularly what he described as his grounds for objecting to the Bill. Those grounds were related entirely to the situation, as he described it, in the Borough of Brent, which is comprised of the old boroughs of Wembley and Willesden, about which he rightly said that there were strong objections by both parties and by both councils in relation to the proposed merger which finally took place.
  I do not wish to go over old ground. The Borough of Brent exists, as does the Greater London Council, and it is our task, both here and in local government, to make the system work effectively and to get the policies and social measures applied for the benefit of the communities concerned. I speak with long experience of local government in the district of Willesden and with a continuing experience of local government as a member of the Borough of Brent Council.
  While there are serious matters for concern in regard to local government, I do not have the same experience as the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) in finding many people in London who do not wish to continue to represent their wards on their local councils. I have had no such experience in my borough, although I concede that the hon. Member for Hornsey may have had that experience in his area.
  I come to the question of the Borough of Brent and the objections put forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North to the Bill. As one would expect, he described the Borough of Wembley as being almost like a paradise before the reorganisation took place. I will comment on that during my speech, although I wish to dwell on the hon. and gallant Gentleman's remarks about what has been happening in the Borough Council of Brent since it came into existence under the reorganisation Act.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman did not put the picture accurately. That may be because he does not know the picture accurately. It is not the first time that I have noticed that hon. Gentlemen opposite and local members of the Conservative Party have not done their

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  homework sufficiently well on the subject of local government. Let us consider the comprehensive scheme of education which we are told by the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North, has been rejected by the Minister of State.
  Sir E. Bullus: The first one.
  Mr. Freeson: There was not a first one. No scheme was rejected.
  I happen to have been one of the chief architects of the proposals which were put to the Minister and I am on the education committee. No proposals were rejected. There was a report outlining certain proposals for the reorganisation of secondary schools in Brent, on the basis of the school building programme as it was known at that time.
  Because, on that basis, there were certain unsatisfactory features which both the council—the initiators of the scheme—and other people, including the Department concerned, accepted as being unsatisfactory, certain changes were proposed in the building programme so that the scheme for reorganisation could be improved—and that has been approved. The scheme is going ahead. Despite this, the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North referred at the conclusion of his remarks to what he described as the same hotch-potch as we had started out with. That is not the case.
  Sir E. Bullus: I said that the proposals had been put forward and that the Minister of State would not accept them. That was true. They were then amended and accepted.
  Mr. Freeson: The hon. and gallant Gentleman should have followed the facts more closely.
  Sir E. Bullus: Really!
  Mr. Freeson: I have been listening to a lot of local stuff being adduced by hon. Gentlemen opposite and I am entitled to speak in this debate, whether or not they like it. I intend to do so, no matter how many interruptions there are.
  A scheme was put forward and it is basically that scheme which is still being put forward and which will become operative. Certain improvements were required and the council itself wanted to make them. They were made and the
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  Minister of State agreed to the scheme. Let us have no more of this nonsense about a scheme being rejected and another one being put forward, because that is not the case.
  I come to the question of housing in the Chalk Hill area of Wembley, to which the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North referred as another reason why, by a peculiar piece of alchemy, the Bill should not go forward. I will not weary the House by going into the details of this case. I merely assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that, whether or not the Bill was before the House, the housing schemes to which he referred would be going forward, anyway. That is all that need be said. It is totally irrelevant to raise the matter of the housing proposals in the part of Brent which he represents.
  Sir E. Bullus: I put forward a case to show the reason why Brent wanted the election to be postponed. The hon. Gentleman and other Socialists are very unpopular in the area. If the election took place next year the Tories would be back in Brent.
  Mr. Freeson: Those remarks compel me to weary the House by going into greater detail on this matter. The area referred to is almost depopulated as a result of the policy of the previous Wembley Council. There are no people there to vote. I do not see the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North querying that remark. The houses were being bought up by speculators and that is why the council moved in to buy up the land. It is why a large council housing scheme will be put forward to speed up the development of slum clearance in the locality.
  How the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that we could be unpopular in an area in which people are not living, I do not understand. I suggest that the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) explains the position to his hon. and gallant Friend. People have been moving out of the neighbourhood for several years.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North then referred to the question of re-warding. The scheme for re-warding, which, according to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, was for the whole

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  Borough of Brent, in fact relates to only one-half of the borough, and that is the old Borough of Wembley. Even more significant, it has the majority of support in that borough. The only people objecting to it happen to be the members of the Conservative Party. Responsible organisations—Labour Party organisations, residents' associations, Liberal Party organisations and individuals—have all expressed their opinion in favour of the re-warding scheme, which has now been approved by the Minister.
  Only one group objected, the local Conservatives, and even in the Commissioner's report it was stated that if there was to be a change it should not be the change recommended by the Conservative Party but preferably the change recommended by the local Labour Party, and that has been agreed by the Minister.
  I will not go further into the history of what went on in that part of the borough prior to the reorganisation. That matter has already been effectively disposed of and it is obvious that the reasons which brought the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North to his feet to take part in the debate had nothing to do with the issue of the Bill. He made a lot of general remarks about a squalid campaign and the intentions of the Measure, as we have heard on many previous occasions from the hon. and gallant Gentleman and other hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  That brings me to some points related not specifically to Brent, but to local government generally. As an outsider—in local government at the time when the London Government Bill was passing through Parliament, two or three years ago, and on other occasions when I have studied debates on local democracy in Parliament—I became more and more aware of the irrelevance of some of the things said. I am not making a party point here, because this has applied to hon. Members of both parties. If we were to give a great deal more thought to the necessity to build up local democracy in regard to public services, the money spent on those services, and so on, we would be spending our time more constructively.
  It would not have mattered a great deal to me whether or not this Bill was
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  brought before Parliament. I cannot get excited about it one way or another. I believe that there is a case for avoiding a succession of elections in one year. Like other hon. Members, I have had experience of running election campaigns or participating in them. I cannot get excited about this issue. Had it been decided to have all the elections on one day I could have appreciated the case of those who objected to that being done in the London area, bearing in mind the history of local government from the electioneering point of view. However, this procedure has been pursued throughout the country outside London for many years and to my knowledge no difficulty has arisen.
  In county and urban district council elections outside London in the past, candidates' names have all been on single ballot papers, and people have been voting for one or another at the same time. I cannot get very excited about the great debate as to whether we should have separate elections. There is no question of principle, gerrymandering, or anything else on either side. It is a lot of nonsense. Many of the things said during a debate of this kind are quite beside the real issues involved.
  It has been pointed out many times that far too low a percentage of people is involved in local government and interested in it, and that far too low a percentage votes at local government elections. This is the one single fact which comes out time and again and about which we may all agree. Instead of the kind of debate we are having today, which is very largely a waste of time, even though I am participating, a good deal of fresh thought should be given to different kinds of techniques which might involve people in their education services, their social services and local government generally. We should be studying ways in which we can involve people other than by the traditional methods, although not replacing them.
  I am all in favour of strengthening the present set-up in local government, but it needs to be strengthened by other, supplementary methods. I should probably be out of order if I spoke of other techniques and procedures which would require legislation, and I do not intend to do so. But I make the point as strongly as I can that it is time that all people,

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  both at Parliamentary level and in local government, began to devote a good deal of their mental energy to other methods of involving citizens in the running of their communities.
  We may well be on the verge of what has been described as a consumer revolution, and that does not relate only to the things one can buy in shops. It will increasingly relate, as time goes on, to the kind of services that are provided generally in the community, and the consumers' point of view cannot be adequately represented only by the traditional methods of local government, by just one-third of the people voting at election time and far too small a number involving themselves as candidates and in other ways in local politics. We must devote our time to this, and I hope that in due course this will be done by Members of Parliament and others so that we may bring forward Measures to increase participation in local government and to support the consumer revolution in the public services.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Berry: I find myself broadly in agreement with much of what the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) said in his concluding observations. How much simpler it would have been not to have the Bill before the House but to be having a debate on the lines he mentioned. It would have been profitable to all of us, and it is another reason for opposing the Bill. The hon. Gentleman said at the beginning of his speech that he would not do any "huffing and puffing", but I began to feel that he was getting near to that with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wembley, North (Sir E. Bullus). He and the whole House will forgive me if I do not follow him in that slightly domestic argument.
  However, I take great exception to one remark by the hon. Gentleman. How can he follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) and say that some hon. Members on this side of the House have not done their homework on local government? If ever there was a moving speech by someone who knows a great deal about local government that was the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey.
  The Bill seems to me to be a return to the tradition of the 1945 Labour
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  Government. I sense very much again the feeling of, "We are the masters now", even though the Minister who made that statement is no longer quite so often quoted by hon. Members opposite, or at least, not in his praise. Nevertheless, his influence in that regard lingers on.
  As part of my preparation for this speech I once again looked through the Labour Party manifesto. In it I found references to nationalisation of industry and mention of the Land Commission, changes in the company law and so on. I do not intend to discuss those subjects today. I do not agree with them, but at least they were in the manifesto and therefore the Government have the right to bring them up for discussion and possible legislation here. But I searched in vain for any reference to the Bill which we are now discussing.
  The Prime Minister has recently been very free in handing out copies of the manifesto; the Leader of the Liberal Party was offered one only a few days ago. If the Prime Minister should be running short and be bringing out a second edition, I have thought of one or two phrases he might insert to cover up this rather serious omission, and also to cover up for my Labour opponent in Southgate at the General Election, who made no suggestion to the electorate that such a Bill would be introduced. He made one reference to the fact that a Labour Government at Westminster would work with a local Labour council in Enfield, and the local Labour council in Enfield will have that pleasure for another year if the Bill is passed.
  The Prime Minister could have put the following phrase in the manifesto:
  "If elected, we will ask Parliament to approve a Bill to deprive the voters of London of the right to choose their local borough representatives for a further year."
  But perhaps that would not have appealed. He could also have said:
  "If elected, we will take steps to ensure that we do not risk losing control of the Labour-controlled boroughs in London for another year."
  Or he might have said:
  "Knowing that local elections tend to go against the party in power nationally, if a Labour Government is elected we will postpone local borough elections in London for a further year."

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  He might have added:
  "If by any chance a Conservative Government should be elected, knowing as we do that local elections tend to go against the party in power nationally, we will fight against any attempt by the Tory majority in Parliament to postpone local elections in London."
  Perhaps the fairest thing of all for him to have said would have been:
  "Next year we will assist the electorate by making their task less confusing. Let us, in the latter half of the 20th century, as we enter the technological age, adapt the phrase on which our democratic system is based. No longer will it be, 'One man, one vote.' In the future it will be, 'One man, one vote per year."
  That brings me to the question of confusion—the confusion of the electorate if it has two elections within a month. Coupled with that there is the Labour Party's suggestion that when elections follow closely on top of one another the electorate tend not to vote so much. The investigations I have made do not bear out that theory. In my constituency, the percentage vote in the last General Election was 75·1 per cent. In 1964 it was 77·1; in 1959, 77·1; and in 1955, at the General Election which followed two local elections, it was 77·5. In other words, it was higher in the General Election which followed the local elections than in subsequent ones which did not. In 1961, the total poll in the Southgate local council election was only 27·5 per cent. In 1964, three years later, when the local election followed the G.L.C. elections by one month, the poll was up to 46·7 per cent., almost three-quarters as much again. That completely negates the argument that people vote less when they have to vote more often. The interest which is aroused has an effect exactly the reverse of that suggested by the Home Secretary.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) referred to the borough for part of which he is the Member, and I know that I shall be forgiven for referring to it also because it is a vital area in London and, as he said, it is the only borough in which the Greater London Council elections were won by one party and the borough elections went the other way.
  I come now to some of the local issues. My right hon. Friend mentioned the question of comprehensive schools, and
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  I can only repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey said, that we are in no way as a party—I certainly am not myself—biased against the comprehensive system as such. There are parts of the country to which it is suited. Nevertheless, there cannot be anywhere in the United Kingdom to which such a system is less suited than the Borough of Southgate. The schools there which will be fitted into one comprehensive school are half a mile or more apart and they are completely unsuited to the system. Yet it is to be imposed in September next year unless the electors have a chance to express their view in local elections between now and then.
  There are other serious local issues. Multi-storey blocks of flats are planned, some of them even in the green belt. I have very strong views about any building on green belt land, and I regard this also as an issue on which the electors ought to have a chance to express their view. There is the question of the housing account. Land has been purchased in the borough at inflated cost by the redevelopment committee out of rates and handed to the housing committee. The electors should have their say on whether the ratepayers at large should have to pay those large sums of money. There is a large tower block called Lavender Hill planned, and this is strongly opposed in many quarters. The Leader of the House, when Minister of Housing and Local Government, refused a public inquiry. Now, public elections also are to be refused.
  There is one development scheme in Southgate views on which cut right across party lines. I have had letters from members of all parties who feel strongly that this development should not take place. It has already been modified, but it remains quite definitely something on which the electors should have their say. Yet they are likely to be deprived of the opportunity. Two of the Members of Parliament for the borough are members of the Government and, understandably perhaps, they are not here this evening; but I should like to know what they think about these issues in their capacity as Members of Parliament as opposed to Ministers.
  Mr. John Page: My hon. Friend says that these hon. Gentlemen are understandably not present this

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  evening. Does he know something which might be explained to the House?
  Mr. Berry: I was speaking only from experience. I find that in debates of this kind there are very seldom many Ministers on the Front Bench opposite. I meant nothing stronger than that, though I am obliged to my hon. Friend for making the point.
  At the weekend after the Bill was first announced, I made a statement to the local Press suggesting that it was only fair to the electors that any really controversial schemes should be postponed until after elections which would eventually be held; in other words, if the elections were postponed till May, 1968, any genuinely controversial scheme which cut across party lines should be postponed also. I have particularly in mind the schools question because I know that opinion on it is extremely mixed as between the parties. I hope shortly to have the honour of presenting a Petition on the subject signed by more than 10,000 parents of children in the borough. I have in mind also the development scheme to which I have referred. There are hundreds or thousands of my constituents belonging to the Labour Party and to the Liberal Party who abhor the scheme just as strongly as do the Conservatives.
  The old Southgate Council was peculiar in one respect. It was one of the last in the country which had a genuinely independent majority, that is to say, the independents had a majority over a Conservative minority. At the last elections, however, they all appeared in their true light and one saw that they belonged to different parties. In fact, the independent councillors varied from the man who is now the Conservative minority leader on our local council to the man who is my chief heckler at all my election meetings. Both were independents previously.
  I make this point because the fact that candidates stood at the last election in the names of their parties and not as independents meant that a lot of new candidates were elected and, therefore, the electors did not know them in the way they have known the old ones. This is a further reason for councillors and candidates offering themselves for election at the right time and not a year later. Moreover, now that the borough is much larger than before, the interests covered are very
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  much wider. This is another reason why the electors should have a chance to give their views on their councillors, many of whom were new to them.
  What about councillors who want to retire? They were elected for three years. Local government councillors do a great deal of work, and I do not see why those who did not intend to serve for more than three years should be forced to stay on for another year. I cannot see any of the Labour councillors in Enfield being allowed to retire during the next few months. A by-election there might have grave consequences for their majority.
  Understandably, there have been many references to the past, but I am not myself concerned with that. I am concerned with the Bill before us and with the public view about it. I do not believe that any hon. Member can genuinely regard this as a truly democratic Bill. Various reasons of a most peculiar kind have been put forward in its support. The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle) gave us some very interesting talks about cherishing our supporters. I certainly cherish my supporters, and I am most grateful to them for their support, but I cannot see why having local elections next May should do anything either to upset them or to make them feel that they are less cherished than they should be. Neither do I have a crusty chairman. My chairman is as keen to fight the local elections next May as I am.
  The hon. Gentleman spoke of the Bill as a modest Measure of three or four Clauses. I do not know why one should measure modesty by size in that way. We live in the age of the mini-skirt—and very nice, too; why not?—but we do not say that the shorter the mini-skirt the more modest it becomes. The essence of the Bill is contained in the vital few words,
  "shall each be postponed for one year".
  The shortness of that phrase in no way reduces its importance.
  The hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) diverted us, as others have tried to do, by talk about having elections on the same day. We are not talking about having elections on the same day. We are talking about having elections for the local boroughs next May, a month

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  after the Greater London Council elections. After that, if the House decides that local councillors shall be elected for four years or two years rather than three, the electors will know where they are. They will know that they will in future have to elect representatives for two, three or four years.
  What I deprecate and find quite disgraceful is the proposal that people elected for three years should now, suddenly, find themselves, by decision of this House and without the electors having a chance to have their say, staying another year in office.
  If the Bill is carried, it will be a sad day because we shall be putting the clock back. I would rather we looked forward, not backward. If we do carry the Bill in due course, I think the electors of London will remember it for a long time. In particular, they will think of it when they vote for the next parliament in our great city—which many call a nation rather than a city—and they will show decidedly what they think of the party which behaved so disgracefully.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. W. O. J. Robinson: When I last spoke in the House I was chided by hon. Members opposite for being naïve. I hope I will not be accused of that attribute again, or of some worse characteristic, when I say that in my approach to the Bill I am endeavouring to judge the situation purely by what is good for local government.
  Like many hon. Members, I have an affection for local government and an even greater love for local democracy. Perhaps my attitude is prompted by the fact that for 25 years I had the privilege of serving as a local government officer and for 13 years as an elected representative.
  Bringing the subject down to a more mundane basis, I represent a constituency in an area which is unlikely to change its political complexion if the election is held in 1967 or 1968. Even more, I live in an area where the same result is likely to be achieved; so I cannot be accused of endeavouring to sharpen a political axe.
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  I was impressed by the arguments advanced by my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State, and the evidence adduced by him of the support for this Measure by the returning officers. I know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) stressed—and rightly so—that the views of the electors should be taken into account.
  However, I suggest that in taking into account the views of electors one should not exclude entirely the views of returning officers, who are men of vast experience in the conduct of elections and who know very well the reactions of electors. They would be able to judge accurately the truth of the statement that two succeeding elections bring a low poll. Is it assumed that returning officers, in putting forward their view, have been influenced only by their own particular mechanics and administrative problems? Surely a returning officer, or public officer of that calibre, would undoubtedly have taken into consideration what he thought was right for the benefit of the constituents or the electors in the locality?
  I am sure that all hon. Members are appalled, disappointed and very often frustrated by extremely low polls at local government elections. It is a sad reflection, not on the electorate, but on political parties, which are unable to whip up more enthusiasm at the polls and persuade local people that the issues before the public are of such importance that they should turn out in vaster numbers. It is our bounden duty to overcome in every possible way the apathy of voters at local elections.
  I am not one of those who subscribe to the view that political parties and local government are factors which should not be joined together. In this day and age, without the existence and the work of political parties, local government would fade into the background even more than it does at the moment.
  I want to deal with two points that were stressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) in referring to the reaction of electors at local elections. The suggestion was made by an hon. Gentleman opposite that confusion does not exist in the minds of electors when two successive elections are held with an interval

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  of only a few weeks. I do not know of the experience which the hon. Member has had when campaigning at local elections, but from my own experience as a local government officer, I know that electors are hopelessly confused when asked to vote twice within a very short period. Many of us have been met on the doorstep with the question, "What, again? I only voted two weeks ago." And one spends half an hour explaining that this is a different local authority performing different functions.
  However persuasive one may be—and one learns to become persuasive in local government—one cannot get over the fact that if the message is not brought home it is reflected in the figures of percentage polls. In order to fortify my own experience I consulted the registration officer of my district, and it is undoubtedly a fact that in any year in which there has been a county council and a borough council election, the borough council percentage of votes has been far less than when only one election was held. I think that hon. Members generally, from their own experience, will support that view. I believe it is right that we should have a year's breathing space between the two elections so that political parties can concentrate, as is their duty, on explaining to the electorate what the election is about, and on impressing upon them how vital it is that they should go to the polls to decide which party they wish to maintain the affairs of their borough in the following period. That is the job of political parties.
  It is not wrong to talk of party workers, but to call upon party workers to put forward further effort within a week or two of having one election is asking too much. I think that we would be fostering local democracy if local political parties were able to work in better gear than they can when one election follows shortly upon another.
  I gathered from the arguments put forward by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that they were not opposed to the alteration so that elections for the Greater London Council and the London Borough Councils should take place in different years. If I am wrong in that, I apologise, but I think that some hon. Members made that point.
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  Apparently, the argument of the Opposition is that they do not think this alteration shall take place in 1967. They are not opposed, for example, to members being elected for only two years or four years. They do not regard three years as being sacrosanct. Their view is that it is wrong that we should alter the election date to 1968 just on those grounds. I gather that the impression is that there are great and important matters to be discussed and decided and that it is essential that the electorate in each locality should have the opportunity to express a mandate on particular matters before a borough council.
  Is it being suggested that the only occasion in which there are important matters of principle or great points at issue, on which the electorate should be asked to express its views, occurs at three-year intervals? In 1968 there will be important points of principle. In 1969 there will again be important points of principle.
  Here I chide the Opposition for one provision in the Local Government Act, 1963. In my borough the electorate had the opportunity of expressing its view on the success or otherwise of the administration every year. Every year they had the opportunity of saying, "We do not like your policy, and so we will change." The Conservative Administration saw no reason why the electorate should not be denied for two out of those three years the right of expressing its views on current affairs. Why are they now saying that one year makes an enormous difference.
  Mr. Hogg: Either the hon. Member is being very naïve or very disingenuous. He must know by now that the objections from this side of the House consist of objections to a body, elected for three years in 1964, being prolonged by an Act of Parliament beyond the period for which it was elected.
  Mr. Robinson: I had not overlooked the argument, because I had suffered the same experience. I should have retired from local government in 1964, but the Conservative Administration said, "No, you will continue until 1965." If the Conservative Administration can extend the period for a year, why is it wrong for this side of the House to do so? I am sorry if I am naïve and I am sorry if I

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  cannot argue my case with the ability of the right hon. Gentleman, but I am endeavouring to do my best with the material at my disposal.
  Mr. Iremonger: There was a totally different situation, because a new authority had been elected and the extension was not for that authority to remain in sole power but to remain in power in harness with the party which had taken over after the elections.
  Mr. Robinson: It is impossible to argue the reasons for doing this or the other thing. The hon. Gentleman said it was wrong for the period of a borough councillor to be extended by Statute, and, with temerity and great respect, I was drawing his attention to the fact that there are precedents for it.
  I gather from the heat that has been engendered on the benches opposite that the principal objection is to comprehensive education; that the argument is that the electorate must be given the opportunity next May to say whether or not they agree with the principle behind comprehensive education. I am very delighted to know that hon. Members opposite are now wedded to the principle that it is the people who will give the mandate whether or not comprehensive education should be introduced. I would remind them that at the last General Election the people gave this Government a mandate to introduce comprehensive education, so their argument is out of court.
  Suppose that my right hon. Friend's decision is deferred until August or September, 1967, do hon. Members think that a borough council election should be held the following year to test the position? In my view, they are trying to produce an argument that a perfectly good administrative arrangement, designed in the best interests of the local government electorate should not be made.
  A most amazing argument was put by the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi)—and I am sorry that he is not now present. I gathered from him that unless a borough council election is held in 1967, vast numbers of borough councillors will sink exhausted to the ground, unable or unwilling to carry on.
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  Most of us connected with local government know that to be nonsense. I shudder to think of what would have happened if borough candidates had said in their election addresses, "We are prepared to serve for three years only. If you want to extend the period, we are not prepared to play." I hope that the hon. Member for Hornsey will advise his friends to put in their election addresses the limited period for which they are prepared to serve.
  Mr. Marcus Worsley: Is the hon. Member suggesting that the party of which he is a Member has a habit of extending the period of office of councillors?
  Mr. Robinson: Elections take place at three-year intervals, and it is certainly not unusual for members of my party to volunteer for a further period of service. That is what I had in mind.
  My experience is that serving members of borough councils are very anxious to continue to serve the electorate for as long as the electorate is prepared to have them, and the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Hornsey was specious in the extreme.
  This is a Bill designed to ensure, if such insurance is possible, that, with the aid of the political parties, the people of Greater London will have an opportunity, and a better opportunity, of knowing what the elections are about, and of being persuaded to go to the ballot box.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. John Hunt: Until today I have always counted myself among the Parliamentary admirers of the Home Secretary—and I say that sincerely. I have not always shared his views, but I have always applauded his courage and ability, and the strength of his convictions. I therefore feel very sad indeed to see him, in this instance—in what my right hon. friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) rightly said was a very unhappy speech—falling far short of his own high standards, and yielding, as we believe he has done, to the squalid political pressures of the London Labour Party and the Labour Party's co-ordinating committee.
  Let us make no mistake about it—when the Labour Party machine resorts to a shabby manoeuvre like this it is clear

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  evidence that the managers at Transport House are worried men. They realise, even if the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger)—who has now left the Chamber—does not, that the Conservative hopes of victory at next year's G.L.C. elections are very well founded, so all the Labour Party can now do to avert a substantial swing to the Conservatives throughout London next year is to seek to cling to power at least in the boroughs for an additional year in the forlorn hope that, in the meantime, the general political situation will have improved.
  There is certainly a case to be made out for holding the G.L.C. elections and the borough council elections in different years. This was underlined in the report from the returning officers, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and in the statement of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, which has been referred to a number of times today. Hon. Members opposite seem to refuse to acknowledge—and this applies particularly to the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. W. O. J. Robinson)—that this separation can be done by altering the term for which borough councillors are elected next time, rather than tampering now with the existing law.
  I beg hon. Members opposite to realise that a vital principle is at stake here. Having elected a council for a fixed period of three years, it is immoral and indefensible to extend the term of office in this arbitrary way without any reference to the electors concerned. The honest and democratic solution is for the Government to withdraw the Bill, to allow the 1967 borough elections to take place as planned, and to lay down in advance that the councillors then elected will serve for four years—or preferably, in my view, for a two-year term.
  What is the Government's objection to that arrangement? It would mean that the electors voting at that election would know in advance where they stood, and so would those elected to the councils concerned. We would then have none of the allegations we have heard today of fiddling and sharp practice—allegations that must inevitably arise when the Government bring forward such proposals as these.
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  Admittedly, it would mean that, just once more, the G.L.C. and the local borough elections would be held in the same year, but is that really such a frightful prospect as to justify the inclusion in a Parliamentary time-table which is already vastly cramped and overcrowded, of this Bill, which we have already heard has prevented other very much needed legislation from being introduced?
  As has been asked already: why was this clash of election dates not mentioned by hon. Members opposite at any time during the protracted debates on the London Government Bill? The hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) spoke today at great length in drawing attention to the difficulties that are arising as a result of this clash, but, as far as I know, he is not on record as saying anything about it three years ago.
  Mr. Lubbock: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that, very largely, it is the experience of the elections in 1964 that has led the Government to the conclusion that they should introduce this Bill?
  Mr. Hunt: That may or may not be so. In any case, the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) will no doubt make his own speech later if he gets the opportunity.
  What has suddenly happened to draw the Government's attention to the close proximity of the elections? I venture to suggest that the birth of the Bill was induced by freeze and squeeze; by the accumulating evidence of the gross mismanagement of the country's economy which the Labour Party managers know will adversely effect their chances in any election held next year.
  Not only does the London Labour Party want to cling to power in the boroughs; it also wants to ensure that controversial measures, like comprehensive education plans in the highly marginal Boroughs of Enfield and Ealing, or the disgraceful policy of compulsory acquisition of owner-occupied houses in Brent, reach the point when it would be very difficult for them to be unscrambled or reversed by an in-coming Conservative majority. That is the real motive behind the Bill.
  This nastly little Bill is symptomatic of the growing arrogance which appears

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  to be sweeping through the Labour Party, from the Paymaster-General downwards, or, should one say, upwards? Not only is it a case of, "We are the masters now", but the masters are now proceeding to change the rules to suit their own purposes.
  The need for local borough elections in London next year has become even more imperative following a number of sinister and unsavoury developments in local government in recent weeks. First, there was the decision by the Labour-controlled Camden Borough Council, which was quickly followed by Lewisham Borough Council, to set up a policy committee specifically excluding the Conservative minority group from membership. I was Parliamentary candidate in Lewisham for eight years so I know the area fairly well. I know that the overwhelming majority of the people there, irrespective of political affiliations, would roundly condemn this deplorable and totally undemocratic decision by the Labour majority at Lewisham Town Hall. I am sure that the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle) will agree with me.
  Mr. Moyle: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the overwhelming majority of people in Lewisham have voted for a Labour council? Would he not also agree that a totally new system of government was introduced for London and that, in the nature of things, a number of experiments should take place? Would it not be fair to allow this new venture of Lewisham Borough Council a run in order to see how it works? When the Conservative Party wins a majority on the borough council—if ever it does—it can adopt the same sort of procedure.
  Mr. Hunt: The overwhelming majority of people in Lewisham should be given an opportunity next year of presenting their verdict on this proposal which, as far as I am aware, was not mentioned in any of the election addresses of the Labour councillors standing three years ago. The Bill is denying them that opportunity. That is the gravamen of our charge. The electors are to be denied the opportunity of condemning this sort of development in local government in
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  the most effective way they can in May next year.
  The electors will be unable to give their condemnation of the extraordinary statement, which was made by the leader of Lewisham council, that meetings of the new committee would be embarrassed by the presence of opposition members, and of the extraordinary decision that Conservative councillors are even to be prevented from receiving copies of its agenda. Who do these little local dictators think they are? The only way to cut them down to size is through the democratic process of the ballot box.
  I am sure that the people of Lewisham and elsewhere were greatly looking forward to an opportunity to do just that next year. Now, the Labour councillors in Lewisham, Camden and elsewhere are to be permitted to flout the principles of democracy for another year. This is a major scandal for which we rightly and roundly condemn the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary.
  Then there is the case of my own Borough of Bromley. Two weeks ago, the local council was informed of the dictatorial decision of the G.L.C. to take powers of compulsory purchase in the borough in spite of the fact that negotiations were still proceeding on the basis of Bromley's offer to give up 5 per cent. of the net gain from its housing output to families from the inner London area.
  Mr. Moyle: Is it not true that Bromley was the last outer London borough to give way on this matter? Every other London borough had agreed that it would make available a proportion of its housing of between 17½ and 20 per cent. Bromley's offer to provide 5 per cent. is extremely modest in the circumstances and I do not think that it should be allowed to get away with less than 10 per cent.
  Mr. Hunt: I do not know what right the hon. Gentleman thinks he has to dictate to Bromley. Although he describes Bromley's offer as extremely modest, he should bear in mind, as the local councillors have done, that we have more than 3,000 families on our own waiting list. What right has the hon. Gentleman or the G.L.C. to dictate what we should do? The local electors of Bromley would have loved to have the opportunity next year

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  of giving a resounding vote of confidence to their local councillors for their refusal to be intimidated by the Big Brothers or even the Big Sisters at County Hall in their determination to ensure that the first priority is given to the 3,000 applicants on Bromley's own list before Bromley is expected to take families from other areas.
  The Bill consists of only two pages, but they will establish a very dangerous and highly undesirable precedent in local government elections. It is a thin little Bill, but it is a thinly disguised attempt at political chicanery for which the London Labour Party will pay dearly in the Greater London elections next year and, I hope, in the subsequent local and general elections in the area.
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. Albert Evans: I hope that the hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the details of local borough council matters, for I do not believe that the House is really considering borough councils in this debate. The Bill's primary purpose is to postpone the borough council elections for a year but listening to the debate one would not think so.
  The issue before the House is the G.L.C. election to take place next April—not the borough council elections. The Bill is only making the field clear to ensure that the G.L.C. election can be held in the best circumstances. We all know that what we are really concerned with is the G.L.C. election next year. The control of the G.L.C. is second only to control of this House in terms of political considerations. It will be a most important election. The Greater London Council represents an experiment in regional government and it may set the example for regional government throughout the country. It will be a vital election and we all know it and that is what we are talking about this afternoon. We are concerned not with whether the borough council elections should be deferred for a year, but with the outcome of the Greater London Council elections next spring.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has rightly introduced the Bill in order to make as sure as he can that next spring the field will be clear so that
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  the Greater London Council elections can be held in the most favourable circumstances.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Evans: The right hon. Gentleman says, "Hear, hear", and agrees with me. We want a fair fight and a clear fight and a fight which is not encumbered by other elections shortly to come. We do not want to confuse the electors so that votes are lost at that vital Greater London Council election. That is the purpose of the Bill, although it deals with the borough council elections. It is to clear the field so that the Greater London Council elections will be held in circumstances free of the complications of the borough council elections a month later.
  However, the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) and his hon. Friends could not allow the opportunity to pass without making some effort to prepare the ground for this vital election. The whole of the debate is pre-electioneering for the G.L.C. elections next spring. The Home Secretary made it clear that this was a practical Bill to deal with practical electioneering considerations. We know that anything which detracts from a high poll at those elections will be regrettable.
  We have heard that the returning officers have carefully considered this matter and we ought to give due regard to what they say, for they are specialists who have a difficult task to perform. It would be a great strain, as we know from experience, on the machinery of returning officers to have elections in successive months. A returning officer has to be very careful. He has a complicated job and there must be no slip-up. Everything is done in sealed order. Votes have to be brought from polling stations and he has to have personnel to man the polling stations, and we know from experience that a returning officer is often at his wit's end to find necessary personnel to do the work efficiently. We must heed the advice which the Home Secretary has received from returning officers who know so much about this matter.
  We have to consider the political parties. To ask the local Conservative organisation in my area to grapple with two elections in successive months would

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  be to ask it more than it could possibly undertake. In my own area and in other Labour strongholds in London Conservative organisations might collapse if too much were put upon them.
  Mr. Iain Macleod Mr. Iain Macleod indicated dissent.
  Mr. Evans: Yes, they would. The right hon. Gentleman ought to take this to heart, for it is quite true. His own people in Labour strongholds face a bleak prospect and cannot hope to win and they know it, but time after time they gallantly come forward, even though they have a great struggle to find candidates. We want them to contest elections. We do not want to be returned unopposed and the only people who can put up any show are the Conservatives. We encourage them to do their best. I am talking now about areas where Toryism has not been able to get a look in over the last 20 years, and, so far as I can judge, will not get a look in for the next 10 years.
  Mr. Nicholas Scott: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in his own constituency the local Conservative Party has just opened a magnificent new headquarters, raised the money for it and is now preparing to get rid of him at the next election?
  Mr. Evans: That building is on a four-year lease and ready to come down in five. Anyhow, it is all shop window dressing.
  Mr. Scott Mr. Scott rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that we shall not go into too much detail about the building.
  Mr. Evans: I was saying that if too much electioneering is placed on local parties, the result will be something which none of us wants. If the local Tory organisations in my own and other areas of London have to have elections in successive months, it may be more than they can manage, and we do not want that to happen. We want the Conservative Party to be able to come up time after time, to find candidates and to fight elections. I am certain that if they are overloaded, there will be a breakdown and no Conservative candidates, so that Labour candidates are returned unopposed. We do not want that. We want
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  to keep up the education of the electorate. We want a system of two or more parties.
  The right hon. Gentleman has a problem here and if, through his speeches here or in other ways, he burdens too much his local organisations in some parts of London, he will do harm to our democratic process.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind first that the local Conservative associations, about which he is so solicitous, are anxious to have the burden of frequent elections put upon them and, secondly, that if his argument has any meaning at all, it must be an argument against having any elections at any time?
  Mr. Evans: I do not think that that follows. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should have said that. With all respect to him, he does not know of the circumstances of which I am thinking. It is with the utmost difficulty that local Conservative organisations find candidates for the inner London borough council elections. Such candidates have no hope of getting back. They put up a hopeless fight. I admire them for it and I want them to continue, but it would be imposing too much of a burden to ask them to fight one election after another.
  We have heard a lot of statements this afternoon about the gerrymandering of election arrangements and of deep plots in the London Labour Party and about how these proposals are outrageous and how great principles are involved and so on. But surely we all know that the Home Secretary's purpose in introducing the Bill is practical and that he simply wants to ensure that the vital G.L.C. elections of next spring are held in the best possible circumstances and that to follow them with borough council elections in a month would disrupt their smooth flow.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. Albert Evans) will forgive me if I do not follow him in what he has been saying, because he has been talking the most utter nonsense and "flannel". He has been absent for the last few hours, and has not heard what has been going on. Those of us who have listened to the debate appreciate that it has been very serious. I

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  can assure the hon. Gentleman that he need have no anxieties about the Conservative organisations. Our organisations are ready to tackle any election at any time. He may need to worry about his own organisations, but his concern for ours is misplaced.
  The issues involved today have been very short and sharp. The Home Secretary described the Bill, as some of my hon. Friends have, as being short and simple. With respect to the Home Secretary, and I agree with what has been said about him personally, he has had to move a very artful Bill.
  The Bill disguises the real intentions of the Government, which is a refusal to face up, in the elections at an early date, to the steamrollering of the comprehensive educational system, which they wish to see forced through in Greater London. My right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) spoke of this in detail. The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, knows only too well of the speech he made in my own town a short while ago, at a public meeting of the Labour Party, when, prompted by the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick), he made the comment that, if necessary—this is as he was reported in the national Press—compulsory powers would be used to force through comprehensive education.
  The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Edward Redhead): Would the hon. Gentleman be good enough to refer to the Answer of the Secretary of State for Education and Science to a Question in the House last Thursday, when a correction of this misrepresentation by the Press was given?
  Mr. Harris: I will not go into the argument at this time—[An HON. MEMBER: "Withdraw."] I am not going to withdraw, because the statement was made several weeks ago and was headlined in the Daily Express. No correction was made then. I have met people who attended the meeting and who have confirmed the statement.
  The Bill before us has been described as a very squalid Measure. It is an unfortunate phrase, but it has been repeated several times and I cannot think of a better one. This is an electoral move and no one on this side of the House has any doubts about it.
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  I share the concern of my party that these borough elections should have been postponed for a year. Through the Home Secretary the Government have said that it is a question of avoiding a clash with the Greater London Council elections, to be held on 13th April next. This is surely a very innocent suggestion to put forward. I have not found anyone, in Croydon at any rate, who thinks that there would be any difficulty in carrying out a double amount of election work
  As a young man, I felt that people should, in some respects, be made to live up to their responsibilities at elections and I always hoped that a system would be introduced, similar to that in Australia, to encourage people to go to the polls. As I grew older, and, I trust, a little wiser, I realised that one cannot lightly force people to go to the polls and to do something in which, regrettably, for the time being, they may not be interested.
  The Thursday before last we had two local borough by-elections in Croydon. These were two ward elections. I am sorry to say that we had an appalling outcome to these elections, when only 21 per cent. of the electorate voted. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) was quite right to say that if the Labour Party was interested in winning these elections it did not show it, because it virtually did not turn out. It was not ready to support its Government, or its Measures, particularly comprehensive education, which the Government are so keen to put before the country.
  The outcome of these two ward elections was an overwhelming victory for the anti-Labour vote. On Thursday of this week we have another similar by-election in a very strong Labour part of the borough, and it will be interesting to see the outcome of this. I rather imagine that it will be a reversal for the Labour Party.
  The poor turn-out in these two by-elections is the lowest vote that I can recall during 24 years of public service in Croydon. In the past, we had polls of up to 60 per cent., even at ward by-elections. This indicates that the Labour Party in Croydon is not very keen to get on with more elections. It is a very strong indication that the purpose of this Bill is exactly as has been described by

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  this side of the House. Such a procedure makes a complete mockery of democracy, if even the smallest voting minority, such as we had in Croydon, is denied the ability to vote when it is expecting to do so.
  People will be denied the opportunity to express themselves in forcible terms—they will have to wait for another year. This is very wrong, and I am glad that my party has taken such a stand against this. The real reason why the Labour Party, and the Government, have brought forward the Bill, is to postpone the next elections.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. A. H. Macdonald: I should begin by declaring an interest. because I am a member of one of the councils which will be affected if the Bill becomes law. In such circumstances, I do not suppose that I would normally have spoken. However, I have a more particular interest in this because the council of which I am a member, the London Borough of Bromley, was referred to by the hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt). I am sorry that he has left the Chamber now. His constituency, like mine, is within the borough. He found it necessary, in his remarks, to refer to the dispute which now exists between the Greater London Council and the London Borough of Bromley.
  Although my views on that dispute are probably rather different from the hon. Member's, I do not intend to make any criticism of the Borough of Bromley. If I wanted to do so, there is a place for me in the Bromley town hall. The place for me to criticise my own council is there. I very much regret that the hon. Member saw fit to refer to this dispute. I notice that he has set down an early day Motion and I am sorry that he has found it necessary to do this. I am equally sorry that some of my hon. Friends have seen fit to put down an Amendment to that Motion.
  While it is true that the dispute exists between the borough council and the Greater London Council, it must be a matter for those two authorities. It is not surprising that disputes do arise because we are dealing with an entirely new system of local government. This
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  is not a two-tier system, but deals with separate authorities, whose functions, to some extent, overlap. It is rather to the credit of the Greater London Council and the London borough as a whole that there have not been more disputes. No doubt credit should be given to the London Boroughs Association in that respect.
  As I say, I should have thought that this was a matter for the two authorities to sort out between them. Whipping up political spirit by tabling Motions on the subject and referring to it in this Chamber can only make a settlement of the dispute more difficult. I think that I can say that there is a weighty body of opinion on Bromley Council, not confined to one party, which still considers it possible that a settlement of this dispute may be reached and that it may well be wise for the council to find some method of cooperating with G.L.C. I am very sorry that these partisan matters have been introduced in this way.
  I turn to one or two facts relating to the dispute. It is a fact that in the London Borough of Bromley there are more private houses under construction than in any other two London boroughs put together. Therefore, I do not see why the G.L.C. should not at least have a share in the building going on. Furthermore, it appears that there is land available, because only last night there was a meeting of the town planning committee of the borough of which I am a member—I was not present, but I get the agendas—and the first item for consideration was a planning application to build 87 more houses. Therefore, evidently there is land available in the London Borough of Bromley.
  Mr. Hunt: What is the hon. Gentleman's answer, then, to the hundreds of people coming to him and to me week after week pleading their cases who are among the 3,000 on the waiting list? Does he ask them to take second place in the queue to people from the inner London areas?
  Mr. Macdonald: No; I do not suggest any such thing. The answer, which must be very obvious, is an improvement in the rate of council house building in the borough. I have the figures before me—as I say, I do not wish to appear to

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  criticise my council—showing the number of council houses currently being built there.
  On the general principle of the Bill, surely those Members are right who say that we should treat this as a matter of principle, and the principle is to ensure that elections are properly and truly representative. I well remember what happened when the original elections took place in the London Borough of Bromley. I am thinking of one particular ward. We started with the G.L.C. elections, where the turn out was about 40 per cent. Shortly afterwards came the borough council elections, and the turn out fell to under 30 per cent. Then, because on the Bromley Council we select our aldermen from the elected councillors, there had to be a number of by-elections. There was a by-election in this ward the following month and the turn out fell to 10 per cent.
  Although I hope that we shall all be ready to submit ourselves to the decision of the electorate, we must do what we can to ensure that an election, when it takes place, is proper and well representative and that the people will be eager to turn out for it. When elections follow closely after one another—and, although I regret it, this is a fact—there is a diminution of interest and it is very difficult to say that the result is representative.
  It is admirable that these elections shall be well spread so that when there is an election it is clear cut and the electorate are interested and turn out in the substantial numbers which everybody wants to see. This is an excellent reason for the proposals put forward.
  7.34 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: Like the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald), I think that it would have been much wiser if the hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) had not put his Motion on the Order Paper and had not seen fit to refer to the unfortunate dispute which has arisen between the London Borough of Bromley and the G.L.C. on the allocation of housing. However, since he has done so, I shall refer to the matter later.
  May I first refer back to a remark made by the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Moyle). He asked why the
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  Opposition were working up a temperature on the Bill. He said that he could not understand the reason for it. A number of reasons have been suggested, but I think that the obvious one is the Conservative Party conference at Brighton. I am surprised that this has not occurred to anybody. It was stated there that on every possible occasion votes had to be cast against the Government, even on trumped-up issues of very little importance. I think that here we have a very good example of the attitude which the Conservative Party decided to adopt at that Conference. It is not the postponement of the borough council elections which is motivated by party politics but the vote which the Conservative Party is to cast in the Lobby this evening.
  Taking the background to the Bill, I say at once—and this has not been referred to since the opening remarks of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod)—that the Labour Party in Greater London has every right to make representations if it thinks that it is in the interests of the electorate for certain steps to be taken to postpone the London borough elections. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West may be interested to know that the London Liberal Party has also made representations on this subject, and I am glad to say that its efforts have been successful. I do not see why the London Labour Party should have all the credit for the Bill.
  I have asked the Home Secretary a number of Questions about the postponement of the elections, going back to January, 1966. In April, 1966, I put certain reasons to him why the postponement should be effected by means of legislation. I am glad to note that the right hon. Gentleman, in his opening remarks, agreed with many of the points which I made then, having said that he would take them fully into consideration. On 18th July I asked him what decision had been made. He said that he had decided that legislation on this subject ought to be introduced.
  To show the right hon. Member for Enfield, West that this matter has been in the mind of the London Liberal Party for some time, I should like to quote a remark made by Mr. Peter Billeness.

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  Chairman of the London Liberal Party Local Government Committee, who had already stressed the view of London Liberals
  "that there should be a year between these two elections''.
  He went on to complain that
  "the Labour Party has had 18 months to put right the mistakes of the 1963 Conservative Act"
  and to point out that
  "there is still time to postpone the borough elections to 1968."
  We do not see anything wrong with this. We in the London Liberal Party consider that in the interests of the electors in Greater London these borough elections should be postponed. We made representations to the Secretary of State in public and I think that there is no secret in the fact that the London Labour Party has also made such representations. We have argued about the precedents. The hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. W. O. J. Robinson) was interrupted by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) on this point. He said that he was a councillor in a local authority when the Conservatives introduced the 1963 Act and his retirement was postponed by a year. I agree that it is not an exact parallel to say that because the retirement of a councillor is postponed the elections for the whole borough should be postponed. But it is a small enough difference for the Conservative Party to have made much less noise about it than it has done this evening, considering that it was by its action in introducing the London Government Bill that a substantial number of councillors served for a greater term.
  The reasons for the Bill seem to be very good. We have the experience of 1964. The hon. Member for Bromley did not seem to think that this was very important. I asked him whether he did not think that that was one of the main reasons for introducing the Bill. He said that he would leave it to me to develop that theme when I made my speech and would not express an opinion on it. The Home Secretary in his opening words gave us the figures—they were very striking—to show how electoral interest diminishes when two important sets of elections are held so close together.
  There is, however, something even more important than that. When this
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  happens, the electoral issues tend to become blurred in the minds of the electorate because they have to think, on the one hand, of the Greater London Council with its responsibilities, which are somewhat remote from their daily lives, and, on the other hand, of the London borough councils, which have the service which affect them most as individuals, and they have to try to keep these two sets of responsibilities separate in their minds when they vote.
  As one hon. Member has said, when one one goes round to people on their doorstep they say, "But we have only just voted in elections the other day. Now, you are asking us to vote again." One has to begin right from the beginning and explain to them the different responsibilities of the Greater London Council and the London boroughs. How much better it would be from the viewpoint of the electorate if we could have one set of elections in one year and another set the next year. Then, we could explain exactly the issues which divide us in the boroughs and the G.L.C. As, I am sure, the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone would be the first to admit, they are completely different sets of issues because of the different nature of the responsibilities of the two types of authority.
  The next point is that great administrative difficulties would be caused to local authorities if we went ahead and had a second round of elections in the same year. The Conservatives have tended to underestimate this factor. I do not know what advice they have taken from the town clerks, but local authority officials to whom I have spoken certainly say that the difficulties are extremely serious. They are almost unanimously delighted that the Government have decided to take this step even though, as the right hon. Member for Enfield, West has said, not all members of local authorities are pleased at the Government decision. When talking to the officers, however, one finds that practically nobody is against the idea behind the Bill.
  One more point which is worth mentioning, because it has not been raised in the debate, is that I have not received one letter from electors in my constituency objecting to the Bill. I do not know about other hon. Members, but I should have thought that if there was such

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  strong feeling in electors' minds that the two sets of elections should be held together in 1967 or a month apart, we should have heard something about it from our constituents and that if we had, at least one hon. Member who had spoken from the Conservative benches today would have mentioned the fact.
  One has only to think of the flood of postcards that we have all received about the export of animals for vivisection purposes. I counted the number which I had received, and it was about 87 during the last two weeks. This shows that people feel strongly about the issue. It cost me a lot in postage too. The same thing is beginning to happen on the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill. People feel strongly enough about it to write to an hon. Member to ask him to vote for or against it. Today's Bill, however, has been published and is available for everybody to study, yet not one letter has reached me from any of my constituents either objecting to the Bill or supporting it.
  Mr. Hogg: I assure the hon. Member that I have received such letters. No doubt, the hon. Member has not because people knew that he would betray democracy.
  Mr. Lubbock: It is because the electors in my constituency are slightly more sensible than those in St. Marylebone.
  Mr. Hogg: I had one from Orpington.
  Mr. Lubbock: Anybody from Orpington who writes to the right hon. and learned Gentleman must want his head examined.
  Mr. Hogg: He wanted an election.
  Mr. Lubbock: I cannot attach much importance to the evidence which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has now produced, and I do not think that he can either, or it would have appeared in some of the speeches made by his hon. Friends.
  Having said that—and it will be understood that I support the Bill in principle—I want to point out a few disadvantages which we should bear in mind. First, postponement of the borough elections will give a reprieve to the Tory-controlled Bromley Council. This is a serious consequence which we must bear in mind in allowing the Bill to go through.
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  But the Tory-controlled Bromley Council are rapidly digging their own graves and we in the Liberal Party in the London Borough of Bromley will be prepared to wait a year before we give them the coup de grâce which they are courting by such activities as the hon. Member for Bromley mentioned: that is to say, the way in which they have behaved over the housing issue.
  I did not intend to raise this matter, but as the hon. Member for Bromley has done so and has cast all the blame on the G.L.C., it should be said that Bromley is the only borough in the whole of Greater London with which such a dispute has arisen. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the dispute, that is a significant fact. As the hon. Member for Chislehurst has told the House, the offer which has been made by the London Borough of Bromley is smaller than that of any other outer London borough with land available. It is smaller than that of Croydon, for example, and even smaller than that of the London Borough of Enfield.
  It has been extremely harmful to try to make this into a national issue. It has also been extremely harmful for it to be pretended that the right is all on one side. The hon. Member for Bromley is not doing any of our constituents a service by trying to add fuel to the flames. The point is that in solving the housing problem of London as a whole, we simply must have the best possible relations between our own London boroughs and the Greater London Council.
  I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Chislehurst that it is not too late for good relations to be restored. I am prepared to do everything in my power to see that a sensible compromise is reached between the borough and the G.L.C. I have written to the chairman of the housing committee of each authority asking whether they would be willing to meet me and discuss the question in a spirit of compromise so that we can try to reach agreement on it.
  Mr. Hunt: If the information which the hon. Gentleman has just given is correct, is he not intervening in a local dispute in exactly the way that he has criticised me for doing?
  Mr. Lubbock: Certainly not, because I am not taking sides. I am neither a

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  member of the party which controls the Greater London Council nor a member of the party which controls the London Borough of Bromley. Therefore, I hope that my services can be of value in reaching a compromise between the two authorities. I have expressed that point of view to both Mrs. Denington and Councillor Foster and I very much hope that they will take me up on it.
  Mr. Anthony Grant: The hon. Member can hardly claim to be an independent arbiter, since he has already expressed a thoroughly biased view on the dispute in this debate.
  Mr. Lubbock: No, I have not. I have said that it was inevitable that this conflict would arise when the London Borough of Bromley had made an offer which was much smaller than that of any other outer London borough. If we are to reach a satisfactory solution to the problem, the London Borough of Bromley must begin by making a concession which will be acceptable to Mrs. Denington and to her committee. I am certainly not saying that the offer which has been made so far by the London Borough of Bromley is satisfactory, but there may be a happy medium between what the Greater London Council would like and what we can persuade the London Borough of Bromley to offer. I sincerely hope that we shall arrive at that position.
  If hon. Members criticise various local authorities and say that the electors should have an opportunity of passing a verdict upon them, I might well say this about some aspects of the conduct of the London Borough of Bromley. There is secrecy on the committees. People in the whole area are debarred from knowing what is happening, including this particular issue, in which I notice that the Conservatives gave information to the hon. Member for Bromley and to his hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) even though it had only been discussed by the housing committee and had not yet reached the full council.
  Mr. Hunt: I am not sure what point the hon. Member is making. If he is alleging that the Conservative members of Bromley Council gave me prior information, that is totally untrue.
  Mr. Lubbock: Of course, I accept the hon. Gentleman's denial. What I am saying is that the letter from Mrs. Denington to Councillor Foster had only been discussed in the housing committee and not yet reported to the full council. Therefore, until there was an item on the television, the hon. Gentleman was interviewed and some statement was given to the evening papers, I was not aware of the dispute. I am pointing out to the hon. Gentleman that there is a complete veil of secrecy which surrounds the activities of committees in the London Borough of Bromley, and when right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about policy committees with no opposition members in other local authorities, I hope that they will bear in mind some of the undemocratic practices of the London Borough of Bromley.
  There was a time when the redevelopment committee of the London Borough of Bromley was involved in considering the future of the town centre at Orpington and had not a single Liberal on it, in spite of the fact that the Liberal-controlled Orpington Council had evolved an extremely important scheme for the redevelopment of the town centre. I call that anti-democratic.
  However, these practices are not confined to Labour-controlled authorities, although no doubt they occur on them as well. In his introductory remarks, the right hon. Member for Enfield, West spoke about the exploitation of the aldermanic system, and here again we have a defect of the present local government set-up in Greater London. Perhaps he would be prepared to co-operate with me in putting down an Amendment to this Bill which would abolish aldermen on the G.L.C.
  Mr. Iremonger: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Could you tell us whether the Short Title or Long Title—
  Mr. Lubbock: Yes. Read it.
  Mr. Iremonger: In that case, your guidance will not be necessary, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Mr. Lubbock: What I think the hon. Gentleman is asking you
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Order. A point of order has been raised—
  Mr. Lubbock: Further to that point of order—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Iremonger.
  Mr. Iremonger: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My first misgivings were quite right. The Long Title of the Bill says that the Bill is to
  "Amend the provisions as to the election and retirement of councillors and aldermen of London borough councils and councillors of the Greater London Council; and for connected purposes."
  There is no question of the abolition of the office of aldermen and the amendment of the London Government Act. Surely it is out of order to discuss the whole principle of the existence of aldermen within the London government system?
  Mr. Lubbock: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since we were quite in order in discussing the abolition of aldermen under the London Government Bill and since the Long Title of the Bill says that it is to
  "Amend the provisions as to the election and retirement of councillors and aldermen",
  I submit that I am perfectly in order in discussing this. Furthermore, it was the right hon. Member for Enfield, West himself who first raised this question, and he was not called to order by Mr. Speaker who was in the Chair at the time.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: In answer to this point of order, my view is that on Second Reading it is perfectly permissible to refer to the position of aldermen. As to whether any particular Amendment about aldermen would be in order in Committee, I must reserve that until I see the terms of an Amendment on the Order Paper.
  Mr. Lubbock: I am very grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  I wanted to remind the House of what the then Minister of Housing and Local Government said in reply to me when we were discussing the London Government Bill in Standing Committee F in 1963. I had put down an Amendment for the abolition of aldermen on the Greater London Council. The right hon. Gentleman for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) said:
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  "It is true that the hon. Member for Orpington referred to the occasional abuse of the position of aldermen, and I cannot deny that this happens. But there is good hope that these incidents will become fewer and fewer, and if they do not then there are means of so reforming the system of electing aldermen that abuses cannot occur."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee F. 5th February, 1963; c. 8.]
  I refused to accept that explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. I refused to withdraw my Amendment and pressed it to a Division. However, not one hon. Gentleman opposite voted with me. I was the only Member who supported it. Now the right hon. Member for Enfield, West complains that, as a result of the Tory London Government Act, 1963, the position of alderman is being abused. He cannot say that I did not warn him that that would happen and continue to happen, as it has done in practically every authority where aldermen exist since this system has been in operation.
  The practice is not confined entirely to Labour-controlled authorities in Greater London, though I admit that some of the worst examples occur in Labour-controlled boroughs.
  In the London Borough of Enfield, in which the right hon Gentleman's constituency is situated, the Labour Party secured 31 seats on the council to the Conservatives' 29. They appointed all 10 aldermen and gave the Conservatives none, making the final figures 41 and 29.
  Another example is the Borough of Brent, where there were 34 Labour councillors elected and 26 Conservatives. There again, the Labour Party appointed all 10 aldermen and gave the Conservatives none. That is a shocking abuse of the aldermanic system.
  Then let me take the Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames, in which the constituency of the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) is situated. I find that there were 40 Conservatives on the council and 20 Labour Party councillors. The Conservatives appointed nine Tory aldermen and only one Labour alderman. I think that that is almost as bad.
  The fault is in the aldermanic system itself, which encourages the controlling party to manipulate it to suit its own convenience. We have enough evidence from

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  the figures given to show that the alder-manic system in London boroughs and in the Greater London Council should now be abolished.
  One final point of great importance about the Bill is this. Originally, it was provided that elections to the Greater London Council should take place on a whole borough basis until after the Boundary Commissions reported on the new boundaries for Parliamentary constituencies, and that, after that, the G.L.C. electoral areas and the Parliamentary constituencies would be made to coincide. That is quite sensible, because then one has the same register applying to both, and people know exactly where they stand.
  However, the Parliamentary Boundary Commissions have reported only recently and it will be a considerable time before their recommendations are embodied in a House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Act. That may not be until 1969 or even 1970, by which time we shall be into a further set of Greater London Council elections.
  I must point out to the House that, if what we are concerned about in the Bill is democracy, we have a system in the Greater London Council elections which is an absolute travesty of democracy. It is far worse than anything about which the right hon. Member for Enfield, West complained this afternoon.
  If we take his own borough, we find that the Conservatives won all three seats, although they secured 42·7 per cent. of the vote, the Labour Party secured only 1 per cent. less, 41·7 per cent., and the Liberals secured 12·8 per cent. In the G.L.C. elections, the Conservatives have swept the board, although they got much less than half the voles and although the Labour Party got only 1 per cent. fewer votes. Thus we have the situation to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, where the borough is controlled by the Labour Party and the Conservatives have all the G.L.C. seats.
  To take an example where Labour won all three seats and we have exactly the same situation in reverse, in Hillingdon the Labour Party secured 42·2 per cent. of votes in the borough, the Conservatives got 39 per cent. and the
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  Liberals got 8·8 per cent. The Conservatives were only 3·2 per cent. behind Labour but, because of the system of whole borough elections, the Labour Party swept the board.
  I appeal to the House to agree with me that this is highly undemocratic. In one borough, it will benefit one party. In another borough, it will benefit another party. But in any case in all the 32 London boroughs in no instance was there other than a clean sweep by the party that won it, and the minorities in all these boroughs are totally unrepresented in the Greater London Council.
  I suggest to the right hon. Lady that she should agree with me that some Amendment is required to the Bill to divide the boroughs into single-member constituencies for G.L.C. election purposes in 1967. That is, of course, as far as I expect her to go. A much more satisfactory method of coping with this problem would be to have multi-member constituencies covering one borough, or, in cases where there are only two G.L.C. members, to lump them in with their neighbouring boroughs, and to elect members to the G.L.C. on the basis of a single transferable vote. This would give a fair representation to minorities in every case, whereas at present, as I have explained, there is no representation of the minority.
  Those are some of the disadvantages of the Bill, but my party is convinced that they are outweighed by the disadvantages of having London borough elections and G.L.C. elections coming as close as one month to each other. For this reason we think that the Government have done well to come forward with this Bill, which will postpone borough elections until 1968, and we intend to support it.
  8.1 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Roebuck: I did not come into the Chamber this afternoon with any intention of making a speech on this Measure. With my customary diligence I had studied the Bill, and had reached a conclusion identical to that reached by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), that there was very little of a disputable nature in it, and I hope to make this plain in fewer words than those employed by the hon. Gentleman.

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  The blame for my intervention rests firmly with those right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite who have used such violent and unjustified language in an effort to condemn this workmanlike and necessary little Bill. Their words were far stronger than their arguments, and I dismiss with contempt the poisonous nonsense which was hissed into the ears of the House by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) about the origins of the Bill. I am sure that it will be dismissed with equal, if not more, vigour outside the House.
  I listened with particular attention to the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). So far as I could judge, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Bill had been introduced to prevent the voters of Camden from ejecting the Labour councillors for their alleged misdeeds. I do not know the precise details of the local government situation in the Borough of Camden. I have enough to do looking after affairs in my own borough, without having the impudence constantly to interfere in the affairs of another, a practice which has been demonstrated so often in this House by the right hon. Gentleman, whose presence we so very much regret at this time. Speaking of my borough, if an election were held as soon as the Opposition wish one to be held, their friends the Conservatives would be sent packing very quickly in short, sharp fashion.
  The Conservatives in Harrow have arrogantly refused to introduce a system of comprehensive education, and we are told by hon. Gentlemen opposite that the purpose of the Bill is to do some sort of a deal over comprehensive education. The teachers in the London Borough of Harrow, and other educational bodies, have said quite clearly that comprehensive education ought to be introduced, but the; Conservatives—
  Mr. Grant: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that such passion is felt by many people about comprehensive education, why not allow the borough elections to take place earlier?
  Mr. Roebuck: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I shall come to that point, which is an interesting one. The difference between the hon. Gentleman and myself is that
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  I approach this matter on a non-party basis, as all legislation of this sort must be approached.
  The interest of the hon. Gentleman and his Conservative friends in comprehensive education is to ensure that one school remains comprehensive, namely, Harrow School, but most of my constituents cannot afford to pay for their children to receive this sort of comprehensive education.
  Mr. Grant: The hon. Gentleman has no justification at all for saying that. If he has any evidence to show that we are adopting that attitude, I hope that he will produce it.
  Mr. Roebuck: I would willingly accept that invitation if it were not for the fact that it would bore the House. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do, or he ought to know, that the Conservatives in the Borough of Harrow procrastinated for more than a year, and eventually produced a scheme which they knew had no hope of being accepted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science because it retains selection at the age of transfer from primary to secondary school. This is one reason why, if an election were held in Harrow in the near future, the Conservatives would go down to a big defeat.
  Mr. Grant Mr. Grant rose—
  Mr. Roebuck: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman again. He had the Floor of the House the other Friday, and he refused to give way to me. I think that, having given way to him twice, that is enough.
  There is another reason why the Conservatives would be defeated if there were an election in the London Borough of Harrow. They have recently decided to increase the rents of council house tenants by 50 per cent., an act of cynical irresponsibility verging on an act of sabotage against the Government's prices and incomes policy. Notwithstanding this, I believe, for the reasons which have been put forward by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary with his customary lucidity, that it is right that the Bill should go forward, and that the elections should be postponed until the following year.

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  From my experience—and I am sure that this is the experience of most hon. Members who have taken part in elections which have come close together—I believe that a great deal of confusion will arise if these two elections are held within a short period of weeks. I therefore support the Bill, and in doing so I condemn the phoney indignation which has been so manifest on the benches opposite. It has been most instructive to watch the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) nursing his anger to keep it warm. During this debate the Opposition have once more demonstrated that they are nothing more than a party of niggle and nark.
  Mr. Hogg: Did I hear the hon. Gentleman aright? I thought I heard him say that he approached this issue from a nonparty point of view.
  Mr. Roebuck: I would not dream of trying to compete with the right hon. and learned Gentleman about being nonpartisan and neutral. I think that it was Disraeli who, when he sat on these benches, looked at the Conservative Front Bench and spied there a row of extinct volcanoes. If he were here today, and were to look at the Opposition Front Bench, he would see, not a row of extinct volcanoes, but a row of professional belly-achers.
  Mr. Hogg: The hon. Gentleman must get his history right. The Front Bench which was described as a row of extinct volcanoes was the Government Front Bench, and it was a Liberal Government.
  Mr. Roebuck: The right hon. and learned Gentleman ought to get his history right. On that occasion the Liberals were the Conservatives. The right hon. and learned Gentleman can sort that one out.
  I think that the Government have made out an admirable case for the Bill, and that they should be given every support by the House. As a result of passing this Bill we can look forward to some vigorous and good local elections in the Greater London area.
  8.8. p.m.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) said, very modestly, that he
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  had not intended to intervene in this debate. Having heard him, I must say that it seemed to me that his modesty was very well founded, and that the best reason he could possibly have had for having formed the intention not to intervene in the debate was that he had nothing to say.
  We know what happened. So few hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite had the face to come forward in defence of the Bill that they had to be drummed up by the Whips, and the Whips' views of the young eagles—
  Mr. Roebuck Mr. Roebuck rose—
  Mr. Iremonger: I shall give way in a moment. I was about to say that having had a sample—and this is my first sample—of the young eagles, I can see why the Labour Party is sticking to the old hens with so much enthusiasm. If the hon. Gentleman now wants to intervene, he is welcome to do so.
  Mr. Roebuck: No.
  Mr. Iremonger: In that case, it is obvious that the hon. Gentleman does not want to pursue his intervention.
  The hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Macdonald), who I think has left the Chamber, criticised my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) for put ting down a Motion criticising the G.L.C. for its proposal to buy land compulsorily in Bromley—a land grab. Since I put down an Amendment which reinforced and supported that Motion, I want to say one thing in defence of the idea that the Motion should be put down. On the whole I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member for Chislehurst. There is a great deal in the doctrine that it ill becomes hon. Members to indulge in the sort of Prodnose officiousness that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) was suggesting, and acting as though we were super councillors and had some standing in respect of matters which Parliament has seen fit to give into the exclusive jurisdiction of local authorities—
  Mr. Lubbock Mr. Lubbock rose—
  Mr. Iremonger: I will give way to the hon. Member if he will let me develop my argument.
  Mr. Lubbock: I was going to ask him a question on this very point.
  Mr. Iremonger: Perhaps the hon. Member will wait to hear what I have to say.
  Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Member has been particularly offensive to me. I think he should give way.
  Mr. Iremonger: I shall be glad to give way in due course, but I am anxious to put this matter in its proper perspective, which is that it is absolutely wrong—I see that the hon. Member is leaving the Chamber; we all thought that he had a little more good temper and patience than that. He will disappoint his constituents, who have always thought that he behaved in the House in a way that hon. Members usually behave. I would have been glad to give way to him, but I wanted first to say that it seemed to me that the early-day Motion with which I associated myself, criticising the Greater London Council, was well conceived because it was directing attention to the intention of this House that the Greater London Council, under the London Government Act, should carry on this housing function for only a limited interim period, after which it should get out of the housing business as quickly as possible. It seemed to me that the action of the Greater London Council was going beyond what a local authority should do, as expressed by the intention of the House in that Act.
  There is a great difference between the initiative taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and that of the hon. Member for Orpington, who, if I may say this with great respect to him, was doing exactly what many hon. Members are continually being asked to do but what I think we should refuse to do—namely, behaving as though we were elected to deal with specific matters when we have been elected, in fact, to keep out of those matters and to give our attention to other matters.
  Although interesting, this is a mere footnote matter, and a triviality compared with the matters on which hon. Members on the Opposition side today have almost exclusively concentrated their attention.
  Mr. John Fraser: The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) has called housing a trivial matter. Does he appreciate that there
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  is a housing waiting list of 13,000 families in Lambeth, as compared with only 3,000 in Bromley, although Bromley has much more land available? Surely it is right that the Greater London Council should redress the balance.
  Mr. Iremonger: The triviality to which I was referring consisted in the marginal relevance of Members of Parliament to local authorities performing their duties. I was not presuming to comment on the importance of Bromley or any other authority building houses in Bromley or any other place. If the hon. Member will bear with me he may in the end agree that even the important matter of public authority housing, which I believe has had its day anyway—[Laughter.] Yes. Most certainly.
  Mr. Roebuck: The hon. Gentleman has made a statement of some significance. He thinks that public authority housing has had its day. Has he any figures concerning the number of private houses built for letting?
  Mr. Iremonger: I know that far too few are built for letting. Were it in order, this is a theme upon which I should be only too glad to enlarge. I am sure that the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) would make some very helpful contributions from that side of the House. But that is not what we are discussing at the moment. We are discussing the question whether the Bill should be given a Second Reading. In the context of the principles raised by the Bill, without denigrating the importance of housing, I say that all such questions are comparatively trivial because the Bill raises a fundamental constitutional issue, and it is that which the House ought to consider.
  Hon. Members opposite have been concerned throughout the debate to emphasise that the Bill is a very modest little Bill. They take comfort in its being so short, as though shortness were in some way equated with innocuousness. I am fortified to know that they regard its shortness as being in its favour because I shall soon ask leave to introduce a very short Bill to stop the scandal of contracting in instead of contracting out from the political levy of trade unions. I hope that I shall be able to add this new argument. If it is acceptable to hon. Members opposite, I shall pray it in aid of my

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  own short Bill as being a harmless one. It is possible to have a fairly short snifter of cyanide, but that does not mean that it is harmless.
  The Government have been anxious throughout the debate to sidetrack the argument into matters of detail. It would therefore be as well to get matters absolutely clear. I want to reiterate what, in my view, the Bill is about. It is not about staggering the pattern of local government elections. It is not about the election of councillors for two years or four years, so as to ensure that the elections to London borough councils and the Greater London Council are held in the same year, or in different years. It is not about how many names should appear on the ballot paper. The Bill is about breaking faith with the electorate, and about breaking faith with democracy itself. It is a Bill of a fundamental constitutional nature for which, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) said, there has been no precedent for over 200 years.
  It is for that reason that any transient matter concerned with housing here or there is trivial. The fundamental questions for the electorate, however it is housed, are the organisation of our society and of our political system. In carrying on to 1968 the councils which were elected in 1964, with the understanding that they would be responsible for three years, the Government are saying to the electorate, "We are breaking faith with you. You can do absolutely nothing about it. We can alter the electoral law by an Act of Parliament and we give due notice that you can place no confidence in the electoral arrangements which are made in future."
  It would require only a very short Bill to prolong the life of this Parliament for another year or another 10 years. I thought that it was less than worthy of his position and responsibilities that the Home Secretary did not turn his mind to this principle. He is not a foolish man. He is not a man of light mind or a man of limited and fuddled intellect who is incapable of perceiving and discerning the constitutional implications of the Bill. If he had been in Opposition, he would have spotted them fast enough.
  For him, with the responsibilities of Home Secretary, to stand at the Box and
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  say—I thought this was so charming—"This is a short Bill and it requires little explanation", was an exercise in disingenuousness which, if it did not do credit to the Home Secretary, did even less credit to us in imagining that we would swallow it.
  He said that it was a short Bill. He might have said that it was "nasty, brutish and short". With his literary propensities, I am surprised that he resisted the temptation to pop that one in. But when he said that it required little explanation, I thought, "Here is a semantic exercise of the first order, of real Balliol quality".
  "Little explanation"! Of course, in a beautiful way, it does require little explanation, in the sense of exposition or expounding, and certainly we have had it expounded very shortly. But there is another kind of explanation which is needed—as to how it came to be put forward, how the Home Secretary came to accept it and present it to the House without facing the constitutional implications, and how he could possibly have taken it from the tainted source it came from without throwing it back with the contempt which party "fixers" ought to receive from senior Ministers who have responsibilities to the nation as well as to their party.
  So, we were given an explanation, but not an explanation of what we ought to have had an explanation about. It reminds me of the professor of philology who was discovered by his wife embracing the housemaid. When she said, "Really, Alfred! I am surprised", he said, "No, my dear, it is I who am surprised: you are astonished." It seems to me that there is a distinction to be made here between the kind of explanation which the Home Secretary ought to make to the House about a Bill of this kind and the sort of explanation which he gave to us about the difficulties and the practicability and the report of the town clerks' difficulties, which were, I see he said, "not insuperable".
  If the difficulties were not insuperable, incidentally, I would have thought that there would have been a very strong argument for saying to the town clerks, "If there are difficulties, they are difficulties which must be overcome." There are greater difficulties surely in saying to the electorate who went to the polls in

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  1964, "You are electing this council for two years," and then, at the end of the two years, telling them that they had elected the council for four years.
  That is the difficulty which the Home Secretary ought to overcome, not the difficulty of carrying ballot boxes, which the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. W. O. J. Robinson) said was such a great difficulty. [An HON. MEMBER: "He did not."] Perhaps it was some other hon. Member, but there was some talk about carrying ballot boxes, how it had to be done so carefully so as not to drop the ballot papers out, or something.
  I would not argue about that difficulty for a moment, but these are the kind of difficulties which town clerks, with their great abilities and organisational talents, exist to overcome. No such difficulties that can possibly be put forward are any justification for this Bill. The justification that we were given by the Home Secretary was absolutely derisory, ludicrous and utterly irrelevant. It was a mockery of the argument which we ought to have had. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be spelling "democracy" as "demockracy".
  I hope that, when the Minister of State winds up the debate, she will answer this question—does she or does she not think that it matters, extending the life of a council and denying the electorate the right to pass judgment on it, a right which they were promised they would have, in an Act of Parliament, when they went to the polls two years ago? I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State will, with his usual efficiency and courtesy, convey to his right hon. Friend the Minister of State that, if the Home Secretary did not see that this point needed dealing with, we as a House of Commons require her, as a Minister of the Crown, answerable to us, to pay us the courtesy and the nation the tribute that we deserve, in view of the seriousness of this matter, by answering the question about what her view is on the constitutional implications of the Bill.
  I feel that the political reputation of the Home Secretary and the whole Government is implicated in the Bill. Their reputation has been irreparably tarnished. I would not be able to vote for this Bill if it were introduced by a Home Secretary
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  in a Government which I supported. I would have thought that this was a matter in which the whole House of Commons should have regard to the principles underlying the Bill. After all, this is not something on which the fate of the Government need hang. I should like to feel that hon. Members on the back benches opposite would say that this was simply "not on", that Parliament itself and the House of Commons will not accept the Bill.
  We should ask the Home Secretary to withdraw it and, in recognition of the insult which he has paid to the House and the constitution, that he should resign his office—[Laughter.] This is perfectly right. A Home Secretary who can present a Bill and submit it to the House in the terms used by the right hon. Gentleman is insulting the House of Commons in a manner which no Home Secretary should be allowed to do. I hope that it will not be a shock to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or to the House, if I reveal that I shall vote against the Bill tonight. I hope that hon. Members will be fortified against any shock by the preparation that I have given them. The plea I make is that hon. Gentlemen opposite should seriously look at the implications. They will be in Opposition one day
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Charles Loughlin): In 35 years' time.
  Mr. Iremonger: If they were to be in Government for 50 years and only then came back into Opposition, the principle underlying the Bill which we on these benches are upholding would still be absolutely fundamental and sacred to them then. It ill becomes them now, sitting in their new-found triumph and their ancient arrogance on those benches, to say that this is a little Bill—
  Mr. Loughlin: New-found.
  Mr. Iremonger: "Ancient" arrogance—they have always had the arrogance. It is the power which they have for a short time only, every 50 years—and that is too often. It ill becomes them to treat this as a short Bill, a little Bill, and a harmless Bill. I hope that some at least—the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins), for instance, a man of great intelligence and integrity—will

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  treat this as a serious matter—[Laughter.] This is not a matter for giggling and sniggering and for young eagles to cluck about
  Mr. Roebuck: Is the hon. Gentleman familiar with the proverb, Aquila non capit muscas? If not, will he acquaint himself with it, as I shall not rise again?
  Mr. Iremonger: I understood the Latin but not the English part of that intervention.
  A great event has occurred. The hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) has come into the Chamber—presumably because he does not at the moment have a Parliamentary Question down for Oral Answer, so I would not like to spoil the atmosphere by further presuming on your patience, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I merely say again that I will vote against the Bill and hope that at least that some hon. Gentlemen opposite have the courage and integrity to do the same.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. John Fraser: I was intrigued by the great flurry of language with which the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) spoke about the constitutional position. He said that the Government were breaking faith with the electorate and that we were debating a grave constitutional matter. Indeed, he said at one point that if legislation of this sort had been introduced by a Conservative Government he would have voted against it.
  Mr. Iremonger: Certainly.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. Gentleman has not been alone in expressing this constitutional point of view and, if I have the argument aright, it is that even had a Conservative Home Secretary introduced legislation breaching this fundamental constitutional position of delaying elections, denying people the vote, so to speak, he would vote against it. If that is the case adduced by the hon. Member for Ilford, North, I would like to know whether he voted against or put up strong opposition to the London Government Act, 1963.
  If one examines that Measure one finds that some of its terms are similar to the Bill before the House, for Schedule 3(6) states:
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  "No election of councillors of the county of London or of Middlesex or of any existing county borough, metropolitan borough, non-county borough or urban district situated wholly within Greater London shall be held after the date of the passing of this Act"—
  and it goes on, in paragraph 7:
  "As respects the counties of Essex, Kent and Surrey the ordinary election of county councillors due …to take place in April, 1964, shall be postponed until such date in 1965 as the Secretary of State may by order specify in relation to the county in question…".
  Further provisions of that Act provide for certain county councillors in Kent, Surrey and Essex to continue in office for a further year. Is this not an even more fundamental breach of the constitutional position? Paragraph (9) of Schedule 3 goes on to state:
  "At the ordinary elections of councillors …of the urban district of Chigwell due to take place in 1964, no councillors shall be elected … and any such councillor elected …and holding office immediately before the passing of this Act shall …continue to hold office …"
  without an election.
  Since the hon. Member for Ilford, North made such play with this issue and has now discovered that his own Home Secretary introduced such a fundamental breach of the constitutional position, does he intend to follow the example of one of his hon. Friends and resign the Conservative Whip?
  Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman must not have been in the House on any one of the two or three occasions when this matter was raised and that precise point dealt with. I do not know, in those circumstances, whether the answer which I gave should be repeated, although I will repeat it—except that the Chigwell position does not apply, because different arrangements were made, as the hon. Gentleman may not be aware. The difference is that when the elections were post poned—
  Mr. Harold Finch: Order.
  Mr. Iremonger: I am in your hands, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Interventions should be kept as brief as possible.
  Mr. Iremonger: When the elections were postponed other elections were held which gave representation to the people

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  concerned through members on the new councils which the Act set up.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. Gentleman was talking about the fundamental principle involved. Anyone who has experience of London government knows that this principle, if it is a principle, was breached by the 1963 Act. It was breached for sensible and practical reasons, because it would have been extremely difficult to hold a series of elections. The provisions covering Kent, Essex and Surrey did not apply solely to the Greater London Council area, but to other councils as well and it is illusory to try to pretend that there is any constitutional issue involved here. In fact, there is none.
  Sir Ronald Russell: There was no opposition to the proposal in 1963, but there is opposition now.
  Mr. Fraser: That is the precise point I am making—that there was no opposition in 1963 and that the real motive for opposing this Bill—and I have tried hard to find a motive—is that hon. Gentlemen opposite are obviously worried about the amount of money that will have to be provided to fight future elections.
  They are extremely anxious to have borough and Greater London Council elections this year because they realise that certain legislation is being introduced which, if passed, may cut down the flow of funds from companies and firms, and reduce the amount of money which will be available to fight the elections if they are postponed for a year. That must be the only motive. It is the only reasonable motive I can find for their very long and illusory arguments.
  I now come to a point on which I oppose the Bill. I shall vote for it, but I think that it is a very timid way of getting over the difficulties which would face the town clerks in holding borough and G.L.C. elections at the same time. It would be very difficult for people to vote for a list of councillors for one ward and also a list of G.L.C. candidates; this difficulty exists even if only Greater London councillors are being elected. In my own Borough of Lambeth, at the last Greater London Council elections, there were 14 or 16 candidates. I was at the count. We have all been to these occasions, and we realise that it is very difficult for old people, for people with bad memories, to look at a list of 16
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  names on a ballot paper and try to remember when they get inside the polling booth which are the Labour, Conservative, Liberal or Communist candidates—and, as in Lambeth, Independent Monarchists.
  One sees all sorts of things on ballot papers. If one's name is high up the alphabet, beginning with A, B, C or D, for example, one's chances of being returned are higher than if it is at the end of the ballot paper. There is the possibility that sometimes ballot papers could say, "Perm any four from eight". [Laughter.] This is not a laughing matter, because people are faced with very real difficulties. It is clear from seeing the ballot papers that there are people who vote for three Conservative candidates and one Communist, or three Labour candidates and one Conservative.
  With these long ballot papers, which we shall have again next May, democracy is not properly served when people go into a polling booth and cannot remember the names of those for which they really want to vote. It is even more difficult if there are two or three candidates with the same name.
  The Bill is timid because it could have amalgamated the borough council and G.L.C. elections, involving one very long ballot paper, and for the first time allowed as an experiment in London the use of the names of the parties on the ballot paper, instead of merely the names of candidates. This was an opportunity for an experiment in electoral law that the Government have overlooked. It is a great pity that they did not choose it as the way out of their difficulty, rather than carrying on the ancient and revered system of electing candidates without the elector knowing their political persuasion from the ballot paper.
  Anybody who recognises reality knows that generally the elector intends to vote for candidates of a particular party, and does not pay too much attention to the character of those whom he is electing. This is not altogether to say that character is not important in a candidate in a council election; it is important, but if people see the names of the candidates and their political parties they need not vote for a particular member of a particular party if they do not want to. I am very sorry that this opportunity was not taken to have some experimental reform

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  of electoral law, and that, instead, the method in the Bill has been chosen.
  8.39 p.m.
  Mr. Nicholas Scott: The hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. Albert Evans) seemed to have as his major reason for supporting the Bill the desire to be kind to Conservative Party workers in various parts of London. He will forgive me if I give little weight to that argument.
  I find it almost equally difficult to give any weight to the Home Secretary's argument that the Bill's real purpose is to make life slightly easier for the returning officers and their staffs in local elections in London next year. I should be the last to put unreasonable burdens upon returning officers and their staffs. Certainly, their convenience should weigh in the balance when one is making up one's mind on how elections should be arranged. But when, as has been amply proved here, a question of principle is involved, that argument should not be decisive.
  The Home Secretary holds that it would be, if not impossible, at least intolerably difficult to have the two elections on different days next year. True, he bolstered this argument with another one about low polls, but I find this also very difficult to accept. In 1949, when the elections were held together, the poll was not below average. In 1964, when the elections were held together, the borough council poll was considerably higher than the average for borough council elections under the old system. I hope that the right hon. Lady, when she winds up the debate, will look again at the argument about the low poll which would result. Past experience does not support it at all.
  We are left with the argument based on administrative convenience. Set against the arguments already deployed the other way, this argument cannot carry weight, particularly when one bears in mind that it would be for one year only and it is quite acceptable to the majority of people that elections next year should elect borough councillors for a period of four years.
  The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) seemed to think that this was just a quibble. It is not. The difference
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  here is as great as the difference between doing the thing straight and subordinating justice to the dictates of party advantage. Simple political reasons have dictated the Government's decision. One might be surprised, on the surface, that the Labour Party in marginally held Tory boroughs is not urging the case against the Bill, being anxious to do battle next May against the Conservatives and to have the chance of putting forward its ideas on housing and education. In fact, the London Labour Party is not taking this line, but its attitude stems not from any non-partisan approach but from its clear understanding of what the trend of results in the local elections next spring will be.
  Labour-controlled local authorities which have put ideology before the interests of the ratepayers and electors, whether in education, housing or anything else, know that their "come-uppance" would come next spring. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but I shall be surprised if they laugh after the Greater London Council elections next April. In fact, local Labour Parties welcome this rather miraculous intervention at the last minute by the Home Secretary to save their bacon. I say "miraculous", though the origins of this Bill are more earthly or more grubby—that is the appropriate adjective—than the word "miraculous" might, perhaps, imply.
  No one will accuse the London Labour Party of being insensitive to party political advantage. Its whole approach to the London Government Act of 1963 was dictated by these considerations and these alone. The Labour Party in the boroughs does not now argue that the 1963 Act was bad. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, we do."] The London Boroughs Association does not argue that powers should go back to the G.L.C. Do the Labour-controlled boroughs say that their powers should go back to the G.L.C., as the London Labour Party did when the Bill was going through? No. They now realise that it is a good Act which has improved the administration of London government and that their attitude then was governed solely by considerations of party political advantage.
  The same forces are at work behind this Bill. It is inspired not by a desire to achieve good government in London, not by a desire to improve the working

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  of democracy, and not by solicitude for the returning officers of London. I recall the concern shown by the Government Front Bench for the officers of the Ministry of Labour who now have to administer the Selective Employment Tax. They got very different treatment and far less consideration when that matter came forward. The Bill is inspired solely by the desire of the party opposite to have another 12 months in which to press on with the development of comprehensive education and to rescue the least efficient of the local authorities controlled by that side, for at least 12 months, from the return that will be due to them in due course from the electorate.
  8.46 p.m.
  Mr. William Molloy: The debate today has been in many respects, somewhat hard hitting. I thought that the most remarkable speech which we have heard, or which we have had to endure, was that delivered by the hon. Member for Ilford North (Mr. Iremonger)—and I am sorry that he is not in his place. With the exception of the sleazy and offensive parts, his speech was a remarkable exhibition of synthetic indignation. That has been the attitude of Members opposite throughout the dsbate.
  I am tempted to call the debate an unnecessary one. However, I have to amend my own thinking on it because hon. Gentlemen opposite have elicited so much useful information from this side of the House that I think that, after all, it has been a very necessary debate.
  The hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) submitted for the serious consideration of the House that the Labour Party had been in power for almost 50 years. I do not know which part of the country he is talking about, unless he was talking about that part of the country where I was born—in the Swansea valley. It is true in that area, but I do not think that it is general for the rest of the country. In any case, it must not be considered an offence to seek power and want to keep it, and it must not be considered an offence to try to obtain power when one has not got it.
  The hon. Member for Bromley gave examples of where he thought that
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  Labour in power in certain boroughs was not being co-operative in sharing authority. I know of a specific incident. When I was leader of the Fulham Borough Council I submitted to a Conservative colleague that, should he wish to have the chair, we would consider supporting him for the chairmanship, but I naturally considered that he would carry out our Socialist policies. He was not prepared to accept this. We have now had this banal argument submitted by the hon. Member for Bromley.
  All hon. Members will strongly disagree with the submission of the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) that there is a form of myxomatosis creeping all over London and that councillors, whether they be Tory, Socialist or Liberal, if any exist, no longer want to carry on with the work they are doing. I do not believe that for one moment. It should perhaps be said at this time that all hon. Members rightly acknowledge the hard work which is put into local government in London by councillors of all political complexions. It is because of this hard work that local government in London has reached a standard which is the envy of the world. On that basis I found that some of the phrases and arguments submitted by hon. Members opposite have not merely been debating points, but that one did not know exactly how London government had been functioning over the past 25 years, and one might have thought that it was nothing but a corrupt body.
  When the right hon. Member for King-ston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) submitted evidence of what had been said 200 years ago, and tried to relate it in the context of modern democracy, I must say that I was aghast. That was a time when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people, particularly working-class people, had no vote, no voice, no say in anything that concerned them. He talked about a period which we all know as being the period of the rotten boroughs, when corruption was shared between Liberals and Tories.
  The remarkable thing which has come out of the debate is that the growth of democracy and decency has been linked with the growth of the Labour Party, which is one reason why I am proud to belong to it.

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  When my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made his remarkable speech, hon. Members opposite seemed to be surprised and paid him high compliments. Having given that "phoney" praise, they then referred to it as an awful speech. In very recent days my right hon. Friend made a most devastating speech, but I did not hear any hon. Member opposite compliment him on it the next day. I therefore hope that he will not take too hard what has been said of his speech today.
  My right hon. Friend balanced the arguments. He did not claim that the objectives of the Bill constituted a massive argument. He admitted freely and honestly, as I think the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) will acknowledge, that, on balance, the Bill represented the better thing to do. He told us that he had obtained the observations and views of very many people. Had he not done so, hon. Members opposite would have blamed him for it. These people have no concern at all with politics, and though it was fair and right for him to consult them he has been criticised for that as well.
  I had hoped that following my right hon. Friend's deep analysis of the reasons for this Bill, we would have had a similar type of speech in response from the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod). I thought when the right hon. Gentleman started that he would maintain that very high level but, regrettably, he slipped down the slope into the cheaper form of party politics, in which he does not usually indulge, and so ruined what could have been a very wholesome contribution.
  There are two right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Chamber to whom I enjoy listening and from whom I can learn. One is the right hon. Member for Enfield, West and the other is the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone—who, I understand is to wind up for the Opposition this evening. I hope that he will grasp this opportunity of raising the level of this debate, which is something he can do, and will not sink into the deep partisanship that his right hon. Friend showed earlier.
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  In two General Elections comprehensive schools have been the burning issue in Ealing, and I am glad to say that the louder the opposition has been to them in my division the greater has been the size of my majority. I therefore hope that hon. Members opposite will maintain their hostile attitude toward comprehensive education because, to use one of their own terms, it pays Labour candidates very handsome dividends.
  To say that people will be deprived of the opportunity to express their views about comprehensive education or about any aspect or attitude of local government is going too far. At one time, I really thought that hon. Members opposite had got things mixed up and that this Bill's purpose was to ban elections for ever more. When one examines the animosity of hon. Members opposite, one is forced to remember that not very many years ago they produced a Measure which stained the good name of London government and of national government.
  That Bill was introduced by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and it destroyed the L.C.C.—an authority that was the envy of the world. They did that for the one reason that the overwhelming mass of Londoners had for 25 years consistently elected Labour to run the affairs of this city. That was the crime, and that was the reason for that Measure. There was manipulation.
  At the time, I was annoyed, because it seemed to me that it had been done so skilfully in the Tory interest that it would be impossible for the Labour Party to win Greater London. Nevertheless, it did not come off. The machinations of right hon. and hon. Members opposite were seen through by Londoners and they were rejected. Some of the smarting and aggravation of that squalid manœuvre has overflowed into this debate and is responsible for the reactions of many right hon. and hon. Members opposite. It would be a good thing if they were to drop that attitude.
  As I have said, the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone, who is quite capable of dealing with the issue on a factual level, has an opportunity now to leave aside the cheap and squalid arguments that we have heard today and restore the debate to the level at which it was set by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Mr. Scott: The London Government Act has made London the only world city with an administrative structure that corresponds to reality. It is that which is the envy of the world.
  Mr. Molloy: That is only the hon. Member's oponion.
  Many people with great knowledge of the operation of London government would totally disagree with him. People who have not only made a study of the subject, but who have worked in London government, have been concerned about change. Many Labour councillors believed that some form of change was required. What disgusted us was that the Conservative Party was not concerned with change or with improvement, but only with capturing London for itself. It was not concerned with efficient administration and that attitude has spread over into this debate.
  I support what was said by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) about aldermen. We do have such experiences in local government. Sometimes they occur because both parties are compelled to do such a thing although, according to strict mathematical interpretation, the aldermanic seats should be shared. But sharing is not done either by Labour or Tory councillors. The time has come for us seriously to look at the problem of aldermanic seats. The situation puts our colleagues on local councils—members of both parties—in a difficulty. The time has come for us to find some other form of making use of the aldermanic bench, since the present method is out dated and should be done away with.
  I want to pay tribute to all those who work in local government as officers and staff, and also to those in the Conservative and Labour Parties who give so much of their time to it. We in this House have a great responsibility because, since it is tempting to make partisan points, we can refuse to acknowledge their work and perhaps thereby damage the good name of voluntary administration that goes into London government and is contributed to by councillors of the Conservative Party just as much as by those of the Labour Party.
  When the dust of the debate settles, I am sure that anyone with knowledge of local government in London—and I believe
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  that hon. Members opposite, in their hearts, believe this to be true—will appreciate that the ideals of the Bill are to provide for better administration and to help in the structure of democracy in Greater London. It will do two things—help to enhance interest in local government in London and contribute to making it an even better democracy.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. Marcus Worsley: There is nothing which gives the lie to the image of the Labour Party as a reforming and progressive party more than the tenacity with which it holds to the idea that the L.C.C., formed at a time when London was infinitely smaller than it is today, was the beau idéal of everything required. The backward attitude of hon. Members opposite is identified by that more than anything else, and we have heard it over and over again from hon. Members opposite today.
  The hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) used an extremely unfortunate analogy. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), with his historical knowledge, has sought back for a precedent and found one in the beginning of the 18th century. The hon. Gentleman completed the analogy by pointing out that that was the time of the rotten boroughs. I remind him that rotten boroughs were those in which elections did not take place when they should.
  Throughout the debate hon. Members opposite have denied the simple principle which is involved—that if a body of councillors is elected for three years then it is not up to the House of Commons for any reason to alter that decision, if that can be avoided. It is as simple as that. There is no precedent, other than that mentioned by my right hon. Friend, for the Government's action. The precedent of 1948, when the time of the election was changed, was a precedent the other way round. The danger is that from now on this action will be quoted as precedent. That is what worries me. With each of these decisions, precedents are constantly changed.
  I draw the attention of the House to something not yet mentioned. In another Bill before the House is a provision to remove the review of the I.L.E.A. That provision should be in this and not in

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  that Bill, for it is related to London and London Members should have a chance on the Floor of the House to debate a change in the 1963 legislation. But that change has been tied to a Bill which is not relevant to it and that is deplorable, especially as the Local Government Commissions particularly excluded London from their operations.
  In other words, this particular London provision has been tacked on to a Bill which specifically has nothing to do with London. This is an important principle. This is fundamentally an education Bill—we all know that and it has been shown many times during the discussion today. We should have the chance to debate this change on the Floor of the House and it is deplorable that the Government should put before us the proposition that the review of the I.L.E.A. should not take place.
  It is deplorable because the working of education in outer London has clearly shown that there is a strong case for smaller education authorities in the centre of London as well as outside. I do not say that it should necessarily be for the whole range of education, but there might be some breakdown of responsibility between central and local authorities. It is wrong for the Government to say that there should be no review, without the House having a chance to consider the matter, and I strongly deplore their decision not to include that provision in this Bill, which is where it should be.
  I ask the Government to make certain, by one means or another, that that provision is discussed, either by taking it out of its present Bill and putting it in this, or in some other way. This proposed change matters desperately to the parents and children of Central London and London Members should have the chance to discuss it in the House.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: The hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) paid me two very delicate compliments during the course of his speech and it is, perhaps, to return evil for good if I say to him that I shared the amazement of my hon. Friend that he should have retained the religious veneration with which he still apparently regards the
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  built-up area of 1888, which was at once the origin and, alas, by the latter part of the 20th century, the limitation of the old London County Council. I will not therefore follow the hon. Gentleman into that part of the debate.
  It must necessarily fall to anyone who winds up a debate of this kind to return at length to the speech of the Minister who introduced the Second Reading of the Bill. I hope to deal with almost every speech made from the Government benches during the course of my remarks. Some of them, like that of the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes), seemed to be impossibly naive, some of them like that of the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) seemed to be impossibly disingenuous, for he began by saying that he approached the matter from a non-party point of view. Other speeches like that of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman), who gave us a rollicking example of Old Bailey common jury advocacy, seemed to be totally irrelevant.
  It seemed that the Home Secretary, if he will forgive me for saying so, was at one and the same time, the most naïve, the most disingenuous, and the most irrelevant of all those who spoke from the benches opposite. This has caused me a very great deal of distress and bewilderment, because I have never regarded the right hon. Gentleman as a naïve man. Indeed, it would be very difficult to write such a good book about Sir Charles Dilke and retain one's virgin innocence for long. I thought that he was a shining example of ingenuousness in a Government whose Leader and whose principal Members are hardly renowned for their candour.
  He has far too formidable an intellectual armament for me ever to regard him as intentionally irrelevant. The right hon. Gentleman affected not to realise—and in this he was surely being naïve—that the case against the Bill is that he is in the position of a man playing cards who has been found with the ace up his sleeve.
  When Mr. Gladstone was discovered in this unenviable situation, he always pretended that God had put the ace there—or so we are led to believe by our forebears. But the right hon. Gentleman,

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  instead of attributing to divine providence the possession of this valuable card in his cuff appeared instead—and here he was surely being disingenuous—to attribute it to the omniscient wisdom of a committee of town clerks, who put it there for purely administrative reasons.
  This is where we thought that he was being disingenuous. He then went on to spend the greater part of his speech explaining why the committee of town clerks had thought that on a nicely balanced arrangement of arguments, some for and some against, the principle of staggering elections was marginally the best of two possible alternatives in the ideal democratic world in which we all wish to live. He did not go to the length of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North, in saying that the other system was unworkable. He was far too subtle, as the hon. Member for Ealing, North reminded us; he said that the arguments were very nicely balanced.
  The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that if all that he had done in the Bill was to stagger the elections between the G.L.C. and the London boroughs he would not have met the opposition which he is meeting tonight, because no issue of principle would be involved. I happen to agree with him that the arguments for and against this course are probably very nicely balanced, but for this reason there would be no dfference of principle between us if he had simply proposed a Bill saying that the elections should in future be staggered.
  But the Home Secretary knows as well as I do—and this is where he was being disingenuous—that what is objectionable to us—and in the context of this Bill and of political reality in London it is, as he well knows, objectonable to us in principle—is the prolongation of the life of an elective body beyond the point for which it is elected. It was this point with which he never dealt in his speech, and it was there that he was being irrelevant. As he well knows, this is a vital year in the history of London. The genesis of the Bill has been attacked as disreputable on grounds which I shall advert to and which my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) explained in detail.
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  I am not saying that there can never be circumstances in which the life of an elective body can be prolonged beyond the period for which it was elected. How could I? I was a member of a war-time Parliament which did it year by year. But what I am saying, and what the right hon. Gentleman has never tried to grapple with, is that the burden of proof rests very heavily on those who propose to do an act of this kind. It is not, at any rate in our view, a burden of proof very easily to be discharged. The right hon. Gentleman has utterly failed to discharge it.
  If we are to do a thing like that, if we are to take away from electors the right to vote for a new council at a point at which they have a vested right to exercise that vote, we must point to three main arguments. The first is necessity; the second is consultation between the parties; and the third is that it is done in the interests of the electors and not in the interests of a committee of town clerks or other officials, or even of the elected representatives of the borough, or even, pace the Member for Lewisham, North, the party workers on whom we all depend for our seats either in Parliament or on local councils. Let me tell the hon. Member for Lewisham, North that the party workers of the Conservative Party in London are raring to go. They do not mind having two elections this year. They are only too anixous to be "up and at 'em".
  But none of these conditions is satisfied in the present case. There has been no consultation between the parties. Apart from the desirability of staggering the elections, the interests of the electors have hardly been mentioned by the Home Secretary. Nor did the right hon. Gentleman even try to pretend that what he was doing was necessary. He even had the audacity—and here he was being very naïve—to suggest that one precedent was afforded by Mr. Chuter Ede in 1948. Mr. Chuter Ede did exactly what we are asking the right hon. Gentleman to do now. He did not prolong the life of an existing elected body; he provided that the future elections should be over four years instead of three and that thereafter they should revert to the triennial period.
  If, as the Home Secretary pretends, the precedent of 1948 is relevant—and of course it is—he should be voting in the "No" Lobby this evening, because it is

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  Mr. Chuter Ede's precedent on which we rely. Then, however, the right hon. Gentleman relied on the precedent of 1963. Here he was being disingenuous, because he knows perfectly well that the precedent of 1963 has nothing whatever to do with the present case. On that occasion, a number of councils—the London County Council and the old Metropolitan boroughs—were being wound down and it was thought that, by agreement between the parties, there should be a period of parallel councils in office. Quite obviously, it was neither in the interests of the electors nor possible to secure new elections for the council which was handing over its dying functions to the new council which had been elected to take them over. The whole essence of the scheme was that the old council should hand over to the new and the purpose was to get the new councils, after new elections, into office at the earliest possible moment. The right hon. Gentleman knew, I suggest, that this was not a true analogy and in that, I suggest, he was being extremely disingenuous in seeking to pray it in aid.
  The right hon. Gentleman then went on to say, as he had said to us earlier, that the reason why he had to have a postponement this year to prolong the life of the predominantly Labour London boroughs was that he was afraid of a low poll. But on what evidence? My right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West explained what the figures were.
  We have the two years 1949 and 1964. In 1949 the poll, although low—38·2 per cent.—for the then boroughs was considerably above the average for 1953, 1959 and 1962. It was slightly above the average in 1953 at 39·9 per cent., considerably below in 1959 at 32·9 per cent. and in 1962 considerably below again at 32·3 per cent. The 1964 figures, however, upon which the right hon. Gentleman purported to rely, showed a borough average of 36 per cent. The right hon. Gentleman only succeeded in making his figure even plausible—and here, I suggest, he was being extremely disingenuous—by limiting his figure to the inner London area. He knows as well as I do that that figure was vitiated by the extremely low average poll of 17 per cent. in the three strongly Labour-held boroughs of Tower Hamlets, Islington and Hackney, otherwise
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  the figure would have been even higher than the general figure which I have quoted.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: If one is making comparisons, one should make comparisons of like with like. If one compares the poll in 1964 for the boroughs which were previously metropolitan boroughs, the figure of 28·7 per cent. is the lowest figure which there ever had been for the years preceding. It is a well-known fact, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will accept, that in all cities—it is true in my own City of Birmingham—polls in inner areas tend to be lower than polls in outer areas. Therefore, unless one is comparing like with like, which is precisely what I did but what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not doing, one gets a false comparison.
  Mr. Hogg: Let us compare like with like. The right hon. Gentleman is not being just to himself. He is saying that he is postponing the elections this year for the boroughs in the Greater London area on the basis that he expects a low poll. The figures which I quoted are for the Greater London area. The right hon. Gentleman's figures are for the inner London area only and they are vitiated by three special cases. Who is comparing like with like?
  Mr. Jenkins: In 1964, the figures for the London area as a whole, for all the London boroughs, were lower than for any other category of authority. They were lower than for county councils, for county boroughs, for municipal boroughs and for urban district councils.
  Mr. Hogg: But they were higher than the years in which the opposite procedure had been adopted, which the right hon. Gentleman could have continued for this year.
  Mr. Jenkins: Higher than the figures for inner London boroughs, which are not comparable.
  Mr. Hogg: Higher than the London boroughs as a whole.
  Mr. Jenkins: No.
  Mr. Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot chide me for taking the whole of the Greater London area, and prefer, when it

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  suits him, to return to the inner London area.
  Mr. Jenkins Mr. Jenkins rose—
  Mr. Hogg: I have given way enough. The right hon. Gentleman cannot refer to the inner London area when it suits him. That will not do.
  Mr. Jenkins Mr. Jenkins rose—
  Mr. Hogg: No, I will not give way—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Too many people want to join in this debate. If the right hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) does not give way, the right hon. Gentleman must keep his seat.
  Mr. Hogg: I have given way enough to the right hon. Gentleman on this point.
  I now want to turn to some of the realities of the case. One of them is education—
  Mr. Jenkins: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Hogg: No, I am not giving way. The right hon. Gentleman did not refer to education and, there again, he was being both disingenuous and irrelevant, because he knows as well as I do that this is a critical year in the future of London education.
  The point is not, as hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think, whether one is broadly in favour of comprehensive education or not. This is not a subject which we can canvass in this debate, and, on quite different grounds, we must agree to differ this evening. However, hon. Gentlemen opposite know as well as I do that there are probably 45 different ways of going comprehensive, and that there are critical and bitter differences between each way.
  In the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West, they are seeking to invent sham comprehensive schools divided between different locations. Parents have the right to vote about that, whether they are in favour of comprehension or not.
  In the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), they are adopting three inconsistent systems of comprehension within a single borough. The local
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  teachers are against it, and the parents are against it, but the teachers and parents are being deprived of their votes. The right hon. Gentleman does not mention education.
  There is the question of housing. The Camden area, with its £1¾ million deficit on its account, which sends the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) to Parliament. Are ratepayers not to be entitled to vote about that deficit?
  There is the Havering area, where there is chaos and no party group in power. Are the electors not entitled to put a party group in power in Havering? Is the right hon. Gentleman, who does not mention these things, who does not think that they are important and who talks about his committee of town clerks, really depriving the electors of Havering of the opportunity of putting an end to the deadlock? What right has he to do so? The Havering council was elected to terminate this year.
  Then there is the Borough of Brent, with owner-occupiers threatened with eviction to make way for council housing. What right has the right hon. Gentleman to prevent them from recording their vote?
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite say, "We, the invincible Labour Party, would win if there was an election." Why do they not have one?
  Mr. Roebuck Mr. Roebuck rose—
  Mr. Hogg: No, I am not giving way. The only polls which have been held in recent months, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames pointed out, have shown a startlingly different series of results. In Croydon, a Labour vote of 1,273 went down to 358. In Greenwich, a Labour vote of 1,446 went down to 881. In Redbridge, a Labour vote of 2,685 went down to 1,402. In Wandsworth, a Labour vote of 1,617 went down to 827. In every case except Wandsworth, where it was practically static, the Conservative vote went up.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman really pretend that there is not an ace up his sleeve which he has deliberately played to cheat people out of the result of a coming election? We know the genesis of these proposals, and no one on the

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  benches opposite, although they have squealed beyond endurance, has dared to deny the facts. This proposal, which the right hon. Gentleman said recently had been put before him in April, 1966, was first leaked by the Leader of the Labour Council at a public meeting on 2nd December, 1965. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it had been made at a secret meeting, behind closed doors, of the Labour Party Co-ordinating Committee.
  The Home Office knew nothing about it because it was rung up and told. The Greater London Council, Dr. Holmes, knew nothing about it because he was rung up and asked. The Labour Party Co-ordinating Committee had already decided to gerrymander the election of 1967, and if the right hon. Gentleman is too much of a pedant to enjoy the word "gerrymander", because that word is more appropriate to what his right hon. and learned Friend did in Northampton two years ago, let me say, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), that he is doing exactly what the corrupt Sir Robert Walpole did when he passed the Septennial Act.
  The House has been misled. The right hon. Gentleman said, as my right hon. Friend reminded him, that seven Conservative boroughs supported the change. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman wrote my right hon. Friend a courteous letter saying that it was a slip of the tongue. I accept that, but why did the right hon. Gentleman not correct his mistake in the House? He told me that seven Conservative boroughs had supported the change. Then he told me courteously and properly that he had made a slip of the tongue. I accepted that it was a slip of the tongue, but I asked him to correct his error, and that he has never done in public.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: If any apology is required, I gladly give it. By a slip of the tongue I said on 4th August what was not true. I told the right hon. Gentleman the position. As I understood it, he accepted it and said that we would return to this. He has returned to it, and I told him this afternoon, and I told the House, exactly what the position was as clearly as I could. Reverting to the position about my slip of the tongue, I
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  said that so many were in favour of a change, but not the change.
  Mr. Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman repeated his slip in another form and although I accepted, and I accept now, that he did not deceive the House deliberately—I have never disputed that—it is the greatest pity that he did not issue a correcting statement in the House the next day.
  In fact, the right hon. Gentleman relied, even in his speech today, on three dissident Conservative boroughs, Westminster, Harrow and Sutton. Westminster is not concerned with educational problems at all, but is a member of the I.L.E.A. All three of them are strong, safe seats in which the error of principle, however wrong, yields no difference in practice as to what the result would be.
  These are precisely boroughs like the Borough of Tower Hamlets, like the strongly held boroughs on the other side, where administrative considerations may well preponderate. But in matters of electoral advantage—and here the right hon. Gentleman is being both naïve and disingenuous if he does not accept it—it is the marginal boroughs which count, and here the marginal boroughs are 100 per cent. Labour held in favour of postponing elections and 100 per cent. Conservative held in favour of holding the elections when the law as it stands today, and at this moment, says that they should be held.
  It is the right hon. Gentleman who has a whole stack of social legislation which needs urgent consideration, some of which could have been passed today. The Genocide Bill could have been passed today. It would have received a Second Reading. The Maintenance Bill could have been passed today. The Bills dealing with fire, drues, and clubs could have been passed without party controversy if only the right hon. Gentleman had done the thing which we accept he is entitled to do, stagger the elections in the way in which Mr. Chuter Ede chose to do it in 1948. Instead of that the right hon. Gentleman has chosen to give effect to the decision taken at the secret meeting of the Labour Party Co-ordinating Committee, leaked on 2nd December, 1965, by the leader of the Ealing Borough Council, which is at war with its parents even in the Law Courts.
  Mr. Molloy: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has made a very grave accusation against the leader of the Ealing Borough Council. It might have been a slip of the tongue, because he is wrong. When my right hon. Friend made a slip of the tongue, the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked him, "Why did you not come to the House the next day to make your correction?" I expect the right hon. and learned Gentleman to come here tomorrow to correct the allegation which he has just made against the leader of the Ealing Borough Council.
  Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member need not wait: it was the Labour leader of the education committee.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): This debate has been full of heat generated by some hon. Members opposite. We all enjoy the exuberant speeches made by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Maryle-bone (Mr. Hogg) almost as much as he enjoys them himself. Before I come to the main argument put forward tonight and deal with the points made in the speeches of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) and the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone, I want to refer to two other speeches.
  The first was the speech of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), which was full of realism. He said that the only party political issue was the vote that the Tories would force tonight on the Bill. He admitted that the Liberal Party had made representations about this matter and that, like any other political party, it had a perfect right to do so.
  The hon. Gentleman also raised the question of single-member electoral areas. He knows that under the London Government Act, 1963, there can be single-member electoral areas only when the new Parliamentary boundaries are in operation; otherwise, there will be a terrific amount of overlapping and it will be an almost impossible position. We noted with interest his views about aldermen. They were very interesting views, and I am sure that some of my hon. Friends will agree with them.
  The second speech was that of the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North (Sir E. Bullus). He made some smears
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  and accusations against my right hon. Friend for the way in which he dealt with the inquiry that took place into the warding of the Borough of Brent. Since he has been asking Questions about this in Parliament, and since we have not had any opportunity of replying to his allegations, it is only right that I should answer them now.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that my right hon. Friend threw on one side the recommendations of the Commissioner who was given the task of conducting the inquiry in the Borough of Brent. He referred, in passing, to the fact that the report of the Commissioner—Mr. Verney—was a rather unusual one, in that he did not suggest one solution but two. He said, "This is the scheme that I would prefer, but there is another scheme, if the scheme that I would prefer is not accepted." He put forward two alternatives, and my right hon. Friend accepted the second.
  Sir E. Bullus: I made the situation quite clear. I said that the Commissioner recommended the maintenance of the status quo, but said that if that was not accepted the alternative should be the Socialist scheme rather than the Conserative scheme. I made that very clear.
  Miss Bacon: Yes, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been alleging for some time in Questions in the House that my right hon. Friend has not paid heed to the views of the Commissioner. I was rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman tonight said, of the distinguished barrister who conducted the inquiry, "Of course, it is significant that it is the same one who conducted the inquiry into Northampon." That is an unjustifiable slur on the good name of that distinguished barrister—
  Sir E. Bullus: I cast no reflection on the Commissioner. All I said was, incidentally, that it was the same Commissioner. No doubt, because of the Northampton case, he put in an alternative.
  Miss Bacon: I took it, and I am sure that all hon. Members who heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman took it, to be a slur.
  I come now to the point about Brent. The recommendation of the Commissioner, which my right hon. Friend accepted, was to merge together the two parts, that is, Wembley and Willesden, in

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  a much better way than the alternative scheme would have done—
  Sir E. Bullus: The Socialist scheme.
  Miss Bacon: The hon. and gallant Gentleman keeps referring to "the Socialist scheme". He knows perfectly well that, in his report, Mr. Verney said that he absolved everybody from any political motives whatsoever in the inquiry.
  The alternative scheme, which my right hon. Friend accepted, means that we shall have wards with equal representation rather than, in future, a differentiation in the wards between those which belonged to the former borough of Wembley and those which belonged to the former borough of Willesden. It was right that this alternative scheme should have been accepted to weld the two together much better than would have been the case.
  I now come to the allegations made about my right hon. Friend both by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West and the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone. I want to refute them absolutely. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West trotted out a series of allegations about speeches and meetings and deputations and secret conclaves, and did so in such a hurried way that we could hardly take them in. He then said that he would let me have all the particulars and documents during the debate so that I could look at them, but, up to now, I have not received them.
  However, I say quite categorically that my right hon. Friend had no representations from any source whatever until the official representations from local authorities.
  We were told about a speech by a councillor at Ealing. All kinds of councillors from every political party make speeches of one kind or another at some time or another, and I had never heard about this speech. I am sure that there are occasions when the right hon. Member does not hear about speeches made by councillors of his party.
  Let me go through carefully—this is important—the sequence of events, and what happened leading up to the Bill. The first letter which we had about this was from the hon. and gallant Member
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  for Wembley, North, who wrote on 10th January, 1966, to my right hon. Friend:
  "I understand that the London Labour Party has approached you with proposals to change the date of the borough elections from 1967 to 1968. If this is so, may I lodge my complaint and that of my divisional Conservative Association. I would be grateful for a comment."
  This was answered by my hon. Friend who was then the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and is now Minister of State, Welsh Office:
  "You wrote to the Home Secretary on 10th January about the suggested change in the year of the London borough elections from 1967 to 1968. The Home Office has received no proposals from the London Labour Party. I note that you would object to such a change."
  The only letter which went from the Home Office to the Clerk of the Greater London Council—and this was before that letter from the hon. and gallant Gentleman—went out on 31st December, 1965. It was concerned with consulting the Greater London Council about the date of the elections next year because, as hon. Members know, it is stated in the 1963 Act that until the elections are on one day, the date shall be fixed by my right hon. Friend.
  The letter went from the Home Office about consulting the members of the Greater London Council in regard to the precise date for the Greater London Council elections next April. Accordingly, the letter having gone to the Clerk of the Greater London Council, the G.L.C. considered the matter and evidently also considered the date of its elections in relation to the date of the London borough elections.
  The result was that the G.L.C., on 8th February of this year, passed a resolution—I will not read the whole of it, only the relevant part—which stated:
  "…we also took the view that a separate year as well as a separate day should be provided for the elections in order to keep alive a sense of civic awareness in an otherwise long interval without an opportunity to vote. In 1967 elections to the London Borough Councils will take place in the week beginning 7th May. Any proposal to change the year of the Borough Council elections will need legislation and therefore we propose that the Council should inform the Home Secretary now that in its view such a change should be made. We recommend—
  That the Home Secretary be informed—
  (1) that the Council prefers 13th April, 1967 as the date of the next election of

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  councillors to the Greater London Council; and,
  (2) that in the Council's view the election of London borough councillors should as soon as possible be held in a different year from that in which the election of Greater London Councillors are held."
  As far as I am aware, no voice was raised against that resolution and no vote was taken at the G.L.C. meeting.
  On 5th April, a reply went from the Home Office to the G.L.C. stating:
  "Note has been taken of the suggestion that after 1967 the election of London borough councils should be held not only on a separate day but in a different year from that on which the elections of Greater London Councils are held. A further communication will be sent to you in due course. Copies of this letter and enclosure have been sent to the Association of Municipal Corporations and the London Boroughs Committee."
  It was as a result of that letter, which was merely noting the views of the G.L.C., that the London Boroughs Committee set up a special committee to consider the matter. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West must have been misinformed, because he said that the special committee—I believe it was that committee to which he was referring—of the London Boroughs Committee was not unanimous. My information is that this special committee was unanimous that the elections should be held in different years.
  Mr. Iain Macleod Mr. Iain Macleod indicated dissent.
  Miss Bacon: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head in disagreement. I have done my best, in the absence of the information he was going to give me, to check on this matter and I have found that this is the position.
  As I say, we sent a copy of the letter to the London Boroughs Committee and this special committee was set up by that body. On 12th April a letter from the London Boroughs Committee was received saying that the majority of the boroughs in London supported changing the years. The majority not only supported changing the years and having the elections in a different year but also favoured the postponing the 1967 London borough elections to 1968. The figures quoted by my right hon. Friend in his speech were that 27 of the 32 boroughs expressed the view that the elections for Greater London councillors and London
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  borough councillors should be held in different years, and 20 of these considered that the change should be made by postponing the 1967 borough elections. The remainder believe that this could be done by postponing the 1970 borough elections. Only five thought that nothing should be done at all, and the majority thought that the 1967 election should be postponed to 1968.
  It is true, as my right hon. Friend said, a report was enclosed from the town clerks of the London boroughs and, after all, the town clerks are those who must do the work in this. I do not think that they would be very pleased at the statement by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West that we are not here to protect the comfort of town clerks and councillors. That may be so, but the town clerks pointed to the breakdown that would occur if they had to have the two elections on one day. They pointed out the difficulty of doing so, and this is relevant because the 1963 Act not only says that the elections shall be held in one year, but that eventually they shall be held on one day.
  Returning to the question of the subcommittee of the London Boroughs Committee, I am informed that the Borough of Enfield agreed with the setting up of the sub-committee of six established by the London boroughs to recommend action on this subject, and when the report was submitted to the Enfield Borough Council's General Purposes Committee it was accepted with no comment from the Conservative members. It was only when it went before the full council that the Conservatives had second thoughts, no doubt prompted from other sources, and voted against it.
  The sequence of events and the letters I have quoted shows that there is no justification whatever for the accusations that have been levelled against my right hon. Friend today. It has been said by several right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that my right hon. Friend was pressurised by party political pressures. He had no—[Interruption.] I want to give the categorical assurance that the letters I have quoted were the first that my right hon. Friend received, and they were from the properly appointed local government authority in London.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way. I wish

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  to say, first, that I am sorry if I misunderstood the question of the documentation, which I have sent for from HANSARD. I thought that I said that if she asked for the documents I would send them to her. My second point is this: does the right hon. Lady realise what she is saying? This was in the public Press last December. Dr. Holmes rang up the Home Office last December. Even Ministers of this Government, like the Minister of Defence, were in print on this last December. Is the right hon. Lady really saying that the Home Secretary is the only person who knew nothing about it until April?
  Miss Bacon: I do not know what the Minister of Defence has to do with this. What I am saying is that these were the representations made to my right hon. Friend and no other, and I want to state that quite categorically.
  We did not move Amendments on the subject we are now discussing when the London Government Bill was before the House of Commons, but they were moved in the House of Lords. The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone said today that there was no issue of principle between us and that, if we had considered a different year, he would have been with us. His Government did not take that view when the Amendments were moved in the other place during the passage of the 1963 Bill.
  Hon. and right hon. Members have referred today to the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Government in London. They have said that this was not all in the 1963 Act, but what they want is what the Royal Commission recommended. I remind the House that, when they were in office in 1963, they adopted in their London Government Bill those parts of the Royal Commission's Report which they liked and they conveniently put on one side those parts which they did not like. For example, the Royal Commission proposed 54 boroughs, but the Bill put the number at 32.
  What about the changes in Surrey? Right hon. and hon. Members have said that there have been party political pressures put upon us. What about the backstairs manoeuvring in 1963 in which they were involved to bring certain parts of the County of Surrey out of Greater London?
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  A great deal of the debate has been concerned with education, particularly education in London. I do not know how the Opposition can talk about education in London now when they tried to break up the whole of the London County Council's education system at the time of the 1963 Bill. I was astonished to hear the right hon. Member for Enfield, West say that our proposal in this Bill is an exercise to further schemes of comprehensive education, a suggestion which was then taken up by other hon. and right hon. Members. I thank them for it. I have always been an ardent supporter of comprehensive education. I take pride in the fact that I have done as much as anyone to persuade my party to adopt it as national policy, but I never thought that I should have the opportunity to stand at this Box as a Home Office Minister and talk about comprehensive education.
  I believe in comprehensive education, and I have always approached the question not as a political but as an educational question. I have seen what has happened in the past, wasting the talents of children at the age of 11. I have seen the wide variations as between one local education authority and another. In the past, it has not been ability which counted towards a child's future, but geography, in that where the child happened to live.
  The right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) said that the Opposition would not like to feel that comprehensive education would be introduced as the result of a political trick, and he added, "We know that the Labour Party would lose in 1967". That is what he and his hon. Friends thought in 1964, but it did not happen.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter Mr. Boyd-Carpenter rose—
  Miss Bacon: No, I cannot give way. I have not much time.
  Hon. Members: Give way.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Lady, obviously, is not giving way. Noise will not make her.
  Miss Bacon: The right hon. Member for Enfield, West said that, if the elections were held in 1967 and the Tories won they would upset the schemes for comprehensive education. He said that

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  it is the people who must be allowed to decide these matters. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Comprehensive education was a great feature of the last General Election and the people decided then in favour of it. The Tories, throughout the whole of this debate, have, in effect, said that if in their particular boroughs there happened to be a change, they would destroy any plans for comprehensive education. That is the threat which they have been issuing tonight.
  During the passing of the London Government Bill, in 1963, the party opposite did a great deal to break up the whole of the child care service in London. When we came to office we could have dismantled all that, but we did nothing of the kind. We have built up the child care service in the boroughs of London, and we have not issued any threats about breaking up the whole of it.
  As I have said, there have been a lot of backstairs manæuvres by the party opposite. I am sorry that the Opposition have treated the Bill as they have, with smears and accusations. It comes ill from hon. Members opposite who destroyed the London County Council because they disliked it so much, and from a party which split vital services on that council.
  We have tried to make the 1963 Act work, and we have done everything we can to make it work. What is it that fills the party opposite with such indignation and anger tonight? It is this: hon. Members did all they could to destroy the London County Council and to destroy the hold of the Labour Party in London.
  It produced the Greater London Council, thinking it would be a Tory Council, but it was not—it was a Labour council. The people of the Greater London area elected a Labour council, and that is what has made hon. Members opposite so angry ever since. That is why they are accusing us of gerrymandering and I hope that their accusations will come to nothing. I am quite sure that at the elections in 1967 or 1968 the people of London will do what they did in 1964.
  9.58 p.m.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: In this most jiggery-pokery manoeuvre there is one obvious thing sticking out a mile, which is that the Labour Party is afraid of facing the election next year—[Interruption.] It has chosen well the date, 13th April, 1967, for the Greater London Council elections, because 13th April will be the unluckiest day for Labour in the last 34 years. They have been 34 wasted years of Labour rule, and they will be ended next April.
  The housing programme, which has been so heavily subsidised—
  Mr. George Lawson (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)Mr. George Lawson (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
  Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 330, Noes 219.

  Division No. 200.]

  AYES

  [10.4 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Blackburn, F.

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Albu, Austen

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Chapman, Donald

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Boardman, H.

  Coe, Denis

  Alldritt, walter

  Booth, Albert

  Coleman, Donald

  Anderson, Donald

  Boston, Terence

  Concannon, J. D.

  Archer, Peter

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Conlan, Bernard

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. Herbert

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Ashley, Jack

  Boyden, James

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Atkins, Ronald (Peston, N.)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Cronin, John

  Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

  Bradley, Tom

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Cullen, Mrs, Alice

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Brooks, Edwin

  Dalyell, Tarn

  Barnes, Michael

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Barnim, Joel

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

  Baxter, William

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

  Beaney, Alan

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Buchan, Norman

  Davies, Edynfed Hudson (Conway)

  Bence, Cyril

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Binns, John

  Cant, R. B.

  Dell, Edmund

  Bishop, E. S.

  Carmichael, Neil

  Dewar, Donald

  Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Dickens, James

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

  Dobson, Ray

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Doig, Peter

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Driberg, Tom

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Pentland, Norman

  Dunnett, Jack

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Judd, Frank

  Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Kelley, Richard

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

  Eadie, Alex

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

  Edeiman, Maurice

  Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

  Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Ledger, Ron

  Probert, Arthur

  Ellis, John

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  English, Michael

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

  Randall, Harry

  Ennals, David

  Lee, John (Reading)

  Rankin, John

  Ensor, David

  Lester, Miss Joan

  Redhead, Edward

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Rees, Merlyn

  Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Rsynolds, G. W.

  Faulds, Andrew

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Richard, Ivor

  Finch, Harold

  Upton, Marcus

  Robert, Albert (Normanton)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Luard, Evan

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lubbock, Eric

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

  Floud, Bernard

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Robinson, W.O.J. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Roebuck, Roy

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Ford, Ben

  McBride, Neil

  Rose, Paul

  Forrester, John

  McCann, John

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Fowler, Gerry

  MacColl, James

  Rowland, Chirstopher (Meriden)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

  Macdonald, A. H.

  Ryan, John

  Freeson, Reginald

  McGuire, Michael

  Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.)

  Calpern, Sir Myer

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Sheldon, Robert

  Gardner, Tony

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Garrow, Alex

  Mackie, John

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Ginsburg, David

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tte-u-Tyne)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

  Maclennan, Robert

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Gregory, Arnold

  MacPherson, Malcoln

  Slater, Joseph

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Small, William

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Snow, Julian

  Griffiths. Will (Exchange)

  Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Manuel, Archie

  Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Mapp, Charles

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Marquand, David

  Stonehouse, John

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Hamling, William

  Mason, Roy

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hannan, William

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Swain, Thomas

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Swingler, Stephen

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Mikardo, Ian

  Taverne, Dick

  Haseldine, Norman

  Millan, Bruce

  Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Hattersley, Roy

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

  Hazell, Bert

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Molloy, William

  Tomney, Frank

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Moonman, Eric

  Tuck, Raphael

  Henig, Stanley

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Wallace, George

  Hooley, Frank

  Moyle, Roland

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Horner, John

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Murray, Albert

  Weitzman, David

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Neal, Harold

  Wellbeloved, James

  Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

  Newens, Stan

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Whitaker, Ben

  Howie, W.

  Norwood, Christopher

  White, Mrs, Eirene

  Hoy, James

  Oakes, Gordon

  Whitlock, William

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Ogden, Eric

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, s.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Orme, Stanley

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Hunter, Adam

  Oswald, Thomas

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

  Hynd, John

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Owen, Will (Morpeth)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

  Padley, Walter

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Paget, R. T.

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Palmer, Arthur

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St. P'cras, S.)

  Pardoe, John

  Winnick, David

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Park, Trevor

  Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

  368

  369

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Yates, Victor

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Woof, Robert

  Zilliacus, K.

  Mr. Lawson and Mr. Grey.

  NOES

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Mott-Radolyffe, Sir Charles

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Gower, Raymond

  Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Astor, John

  Grant, Anthony

  Murton, Oscar

  Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Nabarro. Sir Gerald

  Awdry, Daniel

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Neave, Airey

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Balniel, Lord

  Gurden, Harold

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Nott, John

  Batsford, Brian

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Onslow, Cranley

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Biffen, John

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Percival, Ian

  Blank, Sir Cyril

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Peyton, John

  Blaker, Peter

  Hastings, Stephen

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Hawkins, Paul

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Pounder, Rafton

  Boyden, James

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Braine, Bernard

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Brewis, John

  Hiley, Joseph

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hill, J. E. B.

  Quennell, Mies J. M.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. Sir Walter

  Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Holland, Philip

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Bryan, Paul

  Hordern, Peter

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

  Hornby, Richard

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Buck, Antony (Colchester)

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Hunt, John

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Burdon, F. A.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Rossl, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Campbell, Gordon

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Royle, Anthony

  Carlisle, Mark

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Scott, Nicholas

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Sharples, Richard

  Clark, Henry

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Clegg, Walter

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Cooke, Robert

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Smith, John

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Kimball, Marcus

  Stainton, Keith

  Corfield, F. V.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Stodart, Anthony

  Costain, A. P.

  Kirk, Peter

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Talbot, John E.

  Crouch, David

  Lambton, Viscount

  Tapsell, Peter

  Crowder, F. P.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

  Currre, G. B. H.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstene)

  Teeling, Sir William

  Dance, James

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Longden, Gilbert

  Tilney, John

  Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

  Loveys, W. H.

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  MacArthur, Iain

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Doughty, Charles

  McMaster, Stanley

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Drayson, G. B.

  Maddan, Martin

  Walters, Dernnis

  Eden, Sir John

  Maginnls, John

  Webster, David

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Marten, Neil

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Mathew, Robert

  Whitelaw, William

  Farr, John

  Maude, Angus

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Mawby, Ray

  Wolridge-Gordon, Patrick

  Forrest, George

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Fortescue, Tim

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdn. S. L. C.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Foster, Sir John

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Wylie, N. R.

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Younger, Hn. George

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Monro, Hector

  Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan

  More, Jasper

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Gilmour, lan (Norfolk, C.)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Mr. Pym and Mr. R. W. Elliott.

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. McBride.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

EMPLOYMENT (REDUNDANCY FUND CONTRIBUTIONS)
10.14 p.m.
The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ray Gunter): I beg to move,
That the Redundancy Fund Contributions Order 1966, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th October, be approved.
The effect of the Order is to increase the weekly Redundancy Fund contributions paid by employers from 5d. to 10d. for a man and from 2d. to 5d. for a woman. Introducing the Second Reading of the Redundancy Payments Bill, I said that the Bill was a landmark in the evolution of our industrial society. This country now leads the way in this area of economic and social legislation.
Unfortunately, pioneering produces its own problems. One cannot lean on someone else's experience; one has to make decisions on the basis of what data lies to hand. I said on that occasion, in referring to the total cost of the scheme, that none of the relevant factors, namely the number of redundancies, the age and length of service of redundant workers and future changes in earnings, could be foreseen with precision, and that only experience would show whether any adjustment was needed.
When a redundancy payments scheme was under consideration my Department made two special surveys of redundancies reported to employment exchanges. It was recognised that firm forecasts could not be made on the basis of this information since the introduction of the scheme was, by itself, bound to change attitudes and practices in industry. Estimates had, therefore, to be made covering a number of assumptions as to the total number of payments and their average amount. I hope that hon. Members will bear with me while I give the House some figures.
The calculations to which I referred produced a mid-point estimate of 105,000 payments a year, totalling about £19 million, of which £13·6 million would be borne by the central fund. To meet this and to cover contingencies, weekly contributions were fixed at 5d. for men and 2d. for women, producing an estimated income of £18 million a year. Hon. Members will recall that these rates were criticised at the time as being too pessimistic.
372
The reverse has been proved to be the case, and I should like to give the reasons for this.
Firstly, the number of claims on this fund has been running since April at an annual rate of 125,000 compared with the mid-point estimate of 105,000, on which the present contributions were based. Secondly, the proportion of over-40's receiving redundancy payments has been higher than in the surveys carried out before the Act. Because of the increase in the scale of payment for years of service over 41, because on average, older workers have longer service, and because the proportion of the total payment met out of the fund increases in respect of years of service over 41, the average per capita payment from the fund has been running, since mid-April, at £180 as opposed to a figure of £130 based on the surveys carried out before the introduction of the scheme.
Thirdly, guarantee payments made direct from the fund where employers are unable to make payments themselves, for example because of insolvency, are running at a higher rate than was anticipated. Lastly, there has been a shortfall in contribution income of just over £500,000 on the expected figure of £18·1m. The cumulative effect of all this has been that the fund has been running at a loss of nearly £100,000 a week on average since mid-April. The balance which was then about £2,600,000 is now exhausted and in its place we have a deficit of £350,000.
By 6th February, 1967, the earliest date from which the contributions can be increased, the deficit may have reached £4,500,000. Temporarily we can meet this situation by borrowing. I have power to borrow from the Consolidated Fund, under Section 25 of the Act, up to £8 million, although the limit can be raised to £20 million, subject to the consent of the Treasury and an affirmative Resolution of Parliament. But this is strictly a temporary arrangement, and to delay increasing contributions would merely aggravate the problem to be dealt with and necessitate a larger increase in the end.
There is no question, therefore, but that an increase in the contribution is needed promptly, for three purposes: first, to clear the deficit; secondly, to

373
enable the fund to build up an adequate reserve so that we do not again find ourselves in a situation like the present; and, thirdly, to cover the future likely level of expenditure. In estimating the future level, we are in real difficulty in that, while firms expect heavier claims on the fund because of the recent increases in the level of unemployment, it is not possible to put a precise figure on future trends, nor is it, in any event, possible to establish an exact co-relation between redundancy payments and the unemployment figures. There is, therefore, inevitably a considerable element of judgment in any attempt to forecast future expenditure from the fund.
In the short run we must obviously expect a relatively high level of expenditure. We put this at an average of £650,000 a week over the next six months compared with a weekly average between mid-April and the end of October of £430,000. In one recent week that level has already been reached. We also think it right to work on the assumption that expenditure will fall back gradually over the following 12 months during which over the whole period it might be, on average, £600,000 a week before dropping to what might be regarded as a more normal level of expenditure—perhaps from the spring of 1968. This more normal level might, nevertheless, be rather higher than the level of expenditure from the fund between mid-April and October this year, because some allowance must be made in this case for possible rises in wages and salaries between now and then which will be reflected in the size of redundancy payments.
It is against this background that I have had consultations with the Confederation of British Industry and the T.U.C. and the nationalised industries. As a result of these discussions, which took into account all the considerations which I have put to the House, I have decided that weekly contributions of 10d. for a man and 5d. for a woman should be brought into operation from 6th February, 1967. On the basis of forecast levels of expenditure, these increases should be sufficient to reverse the present adverse trend and bring the fund into balance in the early part of 1968 and build up a small reserve about a year later.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The Minister said that he had had consultations with the C.B.I. and the "big boys". Has he had the views of the small industrialists and small business men who perhaps will find these extra imposts more difficult to bear than the "big boys"?
Mr. Gunter: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the C.B.I. is a very comprehensive body. It is an amalgamation of big and small. We have followed the normal practice of consulting the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. I will not conceal from the House that I originally intended to increase contributions to Is. for a man and 6d. for a woman in order more rapidly to build up a larger reserve. However, the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. and the nationalised industries all felt that this would have been on the high side and that we were trying to do too much too quickly. In the light of their views, therefore, I decided in favour of 10d. and and 5d., accepting that this almost certainly means that the fund will be in deficit for well over a year and that I will need for that period to use my power to borrow from the Consolidated Fund.
I recognise that these increases will add to industrial costs, but I think that we should see the matter in its proper perspective. The increase will represent a tiny fraction of costs—an average of less than one-tenth of 1 per cent. I am fully aware that it will be said that, taken together, these fractional increases add up to a lot of money.
There is one final point which I should like to make in commending the Order to the House. I have pointed out that there must of necessity be a considerable element of judgment in the provision which we are making for the future. I have tried to strike the right balance between over-caution and over-optimism and have taken into consideration the views of both sides of industry. If in the event the fund should recover more quickly than anticipated and a satisfactory reserve is built up in a comparatively short period, I will be ready at that stage to review the contributions which I now ask the House to approve.
10.26 p.m.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: There is room for doubt whether redundancy payments have

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helped mobility of labour, which is the ultimate objective of the payments. They were argued at some stages as being a cushion against unemployment or work-lessness. They have been described as a golden handshake which is due to redundant men and as compensation for loss of a job or less of opportunity to practise a skill. None of these reasons, however, is valid compared with the test of whether the payments have improved the willingness of people to accept change in a technological society.
One interesting by-product of redundancy payments has been that some people have been converted to capitalism. The Minister of Labour may know of the Consett bakers, the men who were sacked from the Consett Iron Company, who put their redundancy payments together and started a baking business, which is now prospering and outdoing all its rivals in the district. This is one of the best results from the scheme that we can find.
The anomalies in the redundancy payments are well known to all. We all hear stories of men who have been declared redundant going round the corner and getting a job next day with another employer, particularly in the building and construction industry, and taking several hundred £s with them. One is still bound to ask whether there should be a delay or qualiflying period of unemployment before a man is entitled to payment. On the other hand, there is the obvious injustice that a man who is made redundant at, say, the age of 64 perhaps collects a large sum in redundancy payment whereas the man who soldiers on until he retires collects nothing.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Member, but we cannot on this Order discuss redundancy in general. The Order makes a specific increase. The hon. Member must relate his remarks to the Order.
Mr. Ridley: I am grateful for your observations, Mr. Speaker. I certainly intend to relate my remarks to the Order, but I hope to show that there are grounds for questioning the proposed increase in the contributions because the end results are, perhaps, something which the House should consider before passing the Order. I will, however, be brief in mentioning these objections to the redundancy payments because that is not the main burden of what I wish to say.
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We know also that the principle of first in, first out is not working fairly with regard to redundancy payments, because the first out probably have no claim on them and I doubt very much whether it is fair to give large payments to some and none whatever to others who have been only a short time in employment Finally, there is the anomaly that employees have tended to cling on to their jobs until they are made redundant rather than seek a new job when they see trouble ahead, which would aid mobility of labour.
The anomalies are serious enough to throw doubt on the efficacy of the whole of the redundancy payments scheme. There are psychological arguments against it, too. It is income which the redundant worker needs while he is looking for a new job and training—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is still discussing redundancy in general. He must come to the Order.
Mr. Ridley: Very well, Mr. Speaker; I accept that.
There are serious grounds, including others which I would have mentioned but for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, for questioning whether this is the right way to use the extra money which the right hon. Gentleman is trying to raise.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For guidance, can you say whether it is possible to separate the obvious anomalies from the argument that this increase for which the right hon. Gentleman is asking is not justified? In order to argue that the increase is not justified, surely one requires to point to the anomalies?
Mr. Speaker: It was when the hon. Member did separate them that I objected. He must link them together.
Mr. Ridley: It is significant that neither in Sweden, nor in France, nor in the United States, is there a compulsory redundancy levy, nor compulsory redundancy payments. The arguments against the whole of this scheme were advanced on many occasions in the past by my right hon. and hon. Friends, who always preferred wage-related benefits to be brought in first. The right hon. Gentleman did not do this. He would, I think, agree, with hindsight—and I am only speaking with the advantage of hindsight

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—that we might have been more sensible to have put more of industrial money into the wage-related benefits scheme and into retraining grants rather than at this stage to increase the amount which we are raising for redundancy payments. I should like to see us continue to build up retraining grants and unemployment benefits, and to separate the latter from the sickness benefit which is of a totally different nature. This is perhaps where we should consider whether it is wise to pass this Order.
I do not wish to dwell on the wide ramifications of this Order and, as you, Mr. Speaker, have suggested, I will deal in particular now with the proposed increase before us. The Order proposes to double the contribution from 5d. to 10d. a week. But, as the right hon. Gentleman himself said, the expected increase in what will be paid out of the fund is from about £400,000 a week to about £600,000 a week, which is only roughly a 50 per cent. increase. So, although he is expecting only a 50 per cent. increase, he is proposing a 100 per cent. increase in the levy. The 5d. which is already paid yields somewhere in the region of £18 million, or a little under, in a full year. Now it is proposed to charge another £18 million, which is a burden upon industry.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that everybody in the House and in the country under-estimated the level of the payments, the cost of this scheme, at the time that it was going through the House. That was before 20th July, when it became part of the Government's policy to "shake out" labour and cause a lot more redundancy. Now it is obvious that the fund is inadequate and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the fund has already gone into deficit.
The question I should like to ask is this. Is it wise to place even this small extra burden on industry at this time? We have had the imposition of Selective Employment Tax which is still causing contortions in industry. We have had the Corporation Tax which in effect is a very big impost upon our businesses. Lately a lot of industrial training levies have been brought out on various different industries. Those are a further tax. On top of that, we have the biggest financial squeeze in the whole of our history.
I question seriously whether this is the time to come along and place even one-tenth of 1 per cent. more on business costs. I suggest also that this is not a very good time to do it, when the country is having a wage and price freeze, and everyone else is being asked to keep prices and wages at the same level. If nothing else, it is not a very clever piece of timing on the right hon. Gentleman's part.
Surely the right principle is that the proper level of the contribution should be the average cost of the payments out of the fund over a period of many years. Quite clearly, this is not an average year. It is the Government's whole policy to cause redeployment and a shake-out of labour, and this could not be called an average year. The right hon. Gentleman has not enough evidence on which to base his claim that 10d. a week is the right charge to levy.
There are two alternatives, and he must give us reasons why he has rejected them. He could have let the fund go into deficit, or he could have made a direct Government grant to the fund. He has power to do both those things under the Redundancy Payments Act.
I want to explore both those possibilities briefly. First of all, as regards letting the fund go into deficit, if I may make a comparison with the Unemployment Fund in the 1930s, which was a period of really heavy unemployment, in June, 1929, that fund went into a deficit of £37 million. By 1933, it had gone into a deficit of £115 million. In terms of our currency today, that represents something like £500 million. By the time unemployment had passed the peak, the fund started to pay back the deficit which it owed the Exchequer.
It is a very sensible conception that, when there is a peak in unemployment or in redundancies, it should be financed by temporary borrowing and paid back when a trough is reached in years to come. They had a conception in those days of what they called "the balancing point". It started off at 1 million unemployed, and it rose later to 1·2 million unemployed. Based upon that, contributions were raised. Nevertheless, that was not enough, and the fund went into this very serious deficit. The Labour Party

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of the time pressed hard for the Government to write off much more of the debt or make a contribution themselves. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us why he does not feel that he can let the fund go into deficit, at least until we know what the average level of redundancy payments is likely to be over a reasonable period of years.
Secondly, on the question of a direct contribution by the Government, under Section 35 of the Act they have power to pay up to £8 million, to be increased by Order to £20 million, if they so wish. I do not see why the Government should not make a contribution to this. If redundancy payments are designed to aid mobility of labour, which I take it they are, then mobility of labour is one of the Government's main national objectives. Why should they not make some contribution from the Treasury to what is, after all, Government policy?
The Unemployment Fund in the 1930s was raised on the basis of a third from each party—Government, employers and employees—whereas this Redundancy Payments Fund is all falling on the employers, none of it on the Government and none of it on the employees. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us, when he winds up the debate, why there is to be no Government contribution to the fund.
Moreover, what I have said is more poignant when one thinks that it is the Government who are creating unemployment. It is their deliberate policy to shake out labour. We question seriously the efficacy, the planning and the practicality of what they are doing. Be that as it may, there is no doubt that it is the Government who are trying to bring about a change in many jobs, the hastening of the decline of some industries and the growth of others which can only put a greater burden on the fund. I therefore think that they have an obligation to say why they are not going to contribute to the cost of this fund.
During our discussions in Committee my right hon. and hon. Friends pressed the Government very hard to accept a new Clause which said that where the Government were responsible for creating
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the redundancies, the Government should pay. The Clause was turned down by the Government, and one can now see why they turned it down. One reason given for doing so was that the Government accepted responsibility for making redundancy payments to civil servants. What an argument that is when one sees it now. The Government were going to have to pay as much as any private employer because they were going to make a lot of civil servants redundant, but in fact we have seen a vast accretion of civil servants, and a rundown of productive, exporting, technological, dynamic industries. The redeployment is from exports to tax keeping, from technology to bureaucracy. As the Government have had to pay out hardly a penny in extra redundancy payments because of their economic policy and their use of manpower, should not they accept some of the cost of the redundancy payments which they have created in private industry by their financial policy?
I am not alone in thinking this. The Economist on 27th October last, when discussing the proposals which are before the House tonight, said:
"This would be quite wrong. In the long term the fund may well balance itself out; the present heavy drain on it is is coming before it had accumulated a decent reserve. The economy is receding, unemployment growing, employers are already groaning under the Selective Employment Tax. It would be silly to increase this other payroll tax now; merely in order to preserve what looks like (but is not really) the insurance principle of the fund. If the fund is proving an even more useful instrument than was originally expected, it should be helped to do the job by a direct Treasury contribution."
I think that that is a very fair criticism.
We cannot estimate what the fund will need to discharge its responsibilities until we have the figures for a considerable number of years, and in any case far more information than we have before us at the present time as to the number of redundancies. In answer to a Question which I asked a few days ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that 8 or 9 million people changed their jobs a year, whereas, as far as we can make out, only about 100,000 people are claiming redundancy payments. This discrepancy between 8 or 9 million who change their jobs, and about 100,000 who claim redundancy payments, needs explaining.
In addition, we need to know how many people will be shaken out by the Government's policy. When will they be shaken out? When will the Government relax the credit squeeze? If, on top of the annual flow of redundancies, we have a greatly increased number of redundancies caused by the policy pursued by the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, obviously we shall have to try to estimate the cost to the fund.
I think that it is clear that the Government have not done their deep thinking on the whole of the financing of their redeployment policy, or mobility of labour policy, or whatever one likes to call it. As I said when we debated redeployment, the financies for the whole of this business are in a muddle. All the money is to be raised directly from the employers. Money for industrial unemployment benefits is raised from both sides of industry. Training costs are raised almost entirely from the Exchequer, and the relationship between all these grants is clearly out of line. Equally, the source of finance is clearly cut of line, and until the Government take a long cool look at the whole of these mobility grants, I do not believe that we will begin to make sense in our redeployment of labour policy.
We do not intend to vote against this Order, but I have made some fairly astringent comments on it because I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not just accept the position as it is, but will be prepared to consider these anomalies and these difficulties which have come upon us all as something of a new phenomenon. Only by experimenting with things like the Redundancy Payments Act can one tell what is wrong. This is the occasion for us to admit that perhaps we did not get it right, just as it is for the Government to admit that they did not get it quite right at the t me. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will let us know the Government's views on some of the important points which arise in considering the Order tonight.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Tarn Dalyell: Many of my constituents had reason to be glad of the Act. Although I am not sure that gratitude is appropriate today, they certainly appreciate the efforts
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of my right hon. Friend in bringing in the Act. But tonight we are concerned with the increases provided for by the Order. I would certainly be prepared to accept the difficulties to which my right hon. Friend referred, and their cumulative effect. Those who criticise are perhaps exercising hindsight. I suspect that the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) recognises this. These things are difficult to judge.
I want to ask one question on the increases. Does not my right hon. Friend agree that some of the money that might otherwise be involved could be devoted to off-the-job adult retraining? In places like Bathgate we want jobs first rather than benefits. The scheme to which my right hon. Friend referred a week ago on Monday would be a vital contribution, certainly in the Bathgate area and the area of B.M.C. redundancies. Such a scheme could make a great deal of difference to firms which do not obtain grants at present because they are not expanding rapidly enough, but which need an upgrading of skill.
Could not some of the money involved in this scheme be used to help the alternative scheme of off-the-job adult retraining? I have given my right hon. Friend notice of this question.
10.47 p.m.
Mr. John Page: The Order and the speech of the Minister this evening are a frank admission of the colossal failure of Government planning and the complete punch-drunkenness of the Government. We had the Second Reading of the Redundancy Payments Measure only in April, 1965. At that time the Ministry of Labour had a mass of information about the pattern of redundancies as they had occurred previously. It had ample opportunity to discover what redundancies were likely to occur. The Ministry carried out the task efficiently and effectively. Since the Minister has quoted from his own speech perhaps I may, also. He said:
"In deciding on the right level of surcharge required to finance the Fund, we have, very naturally, been anxious not to impose a bigger charge on industry than was justified by the need …The total cost of redundancy payments will depend on the number of redundancies, the age and service composition of workers made redundant, and future changes in earnings since the payments will be based on earnings."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1965; Vol. 711, c. 44.]

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The policies which were forced upon the Government have completely changed the pattern and have caused the planning, which was quite adequate and accurate in the first place, to fall out of joint. It is because of the policies of the present Government, the policy of the sack, which they refer to as "redundancy" the policy of unemployment, which they refer to as "redeployment"—
Mr. Gunter: The hon. Member has the argument wrong. He is suggesting that the Order has been precipitated by the measures of 20th July, but the outgoings of the fund in the first week in November were less than in some weeks in June.
Mr. Page: The Minister has had the opportunity of studying those figures and I have not. This is the pattern which Government policies have been following. The forecast of the Ministry should not have turned out to be so wildly wrong. The fact that the payments required have had to be more than doubled within a year of the scheme's inception, and the very large burdens put on industry—
Mr. Gunter: Let us get this straight before we become more involved. The fund was running into trouble in April. Therefore, as I said in my speech, our forecasts were wrong, but they were not quite as wrong as those of the hon. Gentleman's own party, who wanted a contribution of only 4d.
Mr. Page: Though recently in power, my own party did not have behind it the machine of the Ministry of Labour. It would not have precipitated a plan like this with insufficient data. The Minister is saying either that insufficient trouble was taken with the forecast or that the forecast was wrongly done. I cannot see why the forecast should have proved to be 100 per cent. out. To add £30 million to the costs of industry is counterproductive and against the general policies of the Government in trying to get prices down and make our goods competitive.
10.53 p.m.
Mr. John Biffen: I wish to make five very brief points. The first concerns the assumption by the Minister that consultation with the C.B.I. is the equivalent of talking to industry. This assumption is frequently made and ought not to go unchallenged. I was delighted
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that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) pointed out that a large number of small firms for whom this Order will have a special and burdensome significance are not represented in the C.B.I. Perhaps most important, the large and growing retail trade is excluded by the C.B.I. charter. These points are of modest significance in relation to the Order, but they should not be overlooked. We are constantly being told that consultation in the hushed corridors of the C.B.I. is the equivalent of talking to British industry. Nothing could be more misconceived.
My second point concerns the figures of redundancies. In relating the consequences of paragraph 2 of the Order, the Minister kindly informed the House of some prospective figures which he thought might indicate the outgoings of the fund. We accept that a large element of hit or miss calculation must be involved; no one would suggest that it lies within the competence of his Ministry to be too precise in estimating the future outgoings of the fund. Nevertheless, he obviously did not present those figures after having abstracted them out of thin air. They must represent some idea of actual numbers of individual declarations of redundancy.
It would, therefore, be of value and interest if the right hon. Gentleman would say what number of people are represented by the figures, particularly since there has been a great deal of misunderstanding and lack of appreciation about what is expected to be the future trend of unemployment and redundancies in the coming 18 months consequential on Government policy. Tonight the Minister has a first-class opportunity to remove many of those misunderstandings by converting the figures into numbers of men.
My third point is whether or not redundancies can be identified. Many hon. Members have had experience of putting Questions to the Minister of Labour in recent weeks seeking to determine the consequences of some recent Measures. We are constantly told that the Department is unable to give the number of redundancies. I accept that the regulations apply only to redundant people who had been employed for more than two years with one employer. Nevertheless, it would be valuable if the right

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hon. Gentleman could confirm that in future we may expect more information, more quickly and in greater detail, about the consequences arising out of the redundancy legislation, a part of which is this Order.
My fourth point concerns evidence of abuse. Undoubtedly in recent months a great many cases have been brought to the attention of hon. Members where the Redundancy Payments Scheme has not been used in the spirit in which it was originally introduced. My view—and, to some extent, the Minister's comments confirmed this—is that the Scheme is more likely to be abused in a period of over employment than in a period when the labour market is more evenly balanced. I was not surprised when the right hon. Gentleman said that redundancy payments would not necessarily be related to the levels of registered unemployed, but it would be useful if the Minister could give more information and, perhaps, interpret his remarks in that respect.
I wish, as my fifth point, to reinforce the arguments adduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page). Whatever might have been the attitude struck during the Second Reading of the piece of legislation from which this Order flows, the experience of what has happened—the experience of the extraordinary miscalculations—must plant in each of us some doubts about the efficacy of centralised planning and forecasting.
We are constantly being enjoined, not only by the Government but by a great deal of the so-called independent and weighty weekend Press, that the House of Commons and the Government generally should take unto themselves more and more decisions and more responsibility for the central allocation of resources. Whenever that happens, it is just as well that we remind ourselves that—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Order. That does not arise on this Order.
10.59 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Because my hon. Friends and I do not intend to vote against the Order should mean that the Minister will pay even
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more attention to the arguments we adduce. In other words, because we will not delay the passage of the Order, the right hon. Gentleman should ensure that we get what is adequate.
The Minister's comments showed that his request is premature and that while he has some of the facts which would seem to justify asking for this increase, he does not have all the facts. However, the fact that he went a certain distance means that the fuller information cannot be all that long delayed; and I should have thought that he would have delayed imposing this increase until he was in a position to say for how long it will last.
If the Minister had waited until he had all the facts and information that can be obtained through his Ministry, he should have been able in a few months to state the increase, if he had to have one, and put a time limit on it. In answering my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page), the Minister showed that the figures for the first week of this month, which he has but which I assume we do not yet have, are not as bad as in April. Therefore, it seems that the amount of money that will be extracted from the fund could be on the downward trend.
I ask the Minister, even now, if he would not consider preparing the case to let us know how long the increase is likely to last. That is very important. He showed in two sentences of his speech that he is aware that this is an extra impost on business generally. He let it be known that he was aware of the damage that the Corporation Tax and Selective Employment Tax cause. If what he calls this extra small impost is added, the stage is approached where a large proportion of smaller and medium-sized industries do not know how to plan their tenders because of the extra imposts that are being piled on them. They do not know where they are, and as many of them are sub-contractors to big exporting companies this may well injure our general export potential.
The right hon. Gentleman should not come here with half a tale. I should have liked him to delay his request for extra until he could say that he would deal with some of the anomalies. There are so many that their cost could well be the reason why we must have the increase. I am certain that my hon. Friend

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the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) was on very strong ground when he reminded the Treasury Bench of the anomalies.
A case was brought to me of people who had been employed in a theatre production with had gone on for a fairly long time, and at the end of its run they were being moved from one production to another. But as that particular contract was ending they were able to claim redundancy pay. Even more surprising, they were all part-time workers and, more surprising still, one was a civil servant, who, under the terms of his Civil Service contract, should not have had a part-time outside job. But this matter went to a tribunal and he got his redundancy pay. If that sort of anomaly is extensive, as some of us believe, it should be rectified. If the right hon. Gentleman had delayed asking for the increase until he could bring in a way of dealing with those expensive anomalies it would have been more acceptable to the House and the country.
Above all, I reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West. The appearance is given that the Ministry of Labour is not completely in charge of its own Department, that it makes a decision one year and before a year is up it finds that all its assumptions and estimates were wildly out. When the prestige of the Ministry is so important in maintaining tranquillity in industry generally, and the Ministry's reputation is more important than ever, it would have been useful to delay rather than disclose this lack of knowledge.
I do not know whether my hon. Friends' words will have any effect, but I wonder whether the Minister could tell the House whether he intends to deal with the anomalies and would be prepared, in return for our giving permission to put on this extra impost, to clear out some of them, which give as much truoble to him as they do to those of us who criticise him tonight.
11.4 p.m.
Mr. John Pardoe: The Liberal Party gave a general welcome to the Redundancy Payments Act on Second Reading, and I do not wish to indulge in too detailed criticism tonight. Many of the criticisms I would make have already been made, though
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perhaps not in the same spirit as that in which I would have made them.
First, I challenge the insurance principle. These necessary increases show that any insurance principle in a matter in which it is not possible to calculate the risk is the wrong principle to apply. The Liberal Party has said this over and over again in relation to our insurance social security system as a whole, and I say it again on this Order.
Moreover, where one cannot calculate the risk and, as here, where it is manifest that the calculations made were wrong—I accept that they were wrong for very good reasons—it is the wrong method to try to balance the books, and it is certainly wrong to try to balance them from year to year. It is wrong to whip contributions up and down according to the state of the labour market.
The Minister has said that the main reason for having to raise these contributions is not the state of the labour market as a whole. Presumably, therefore, the reason is that the pattern of redundancies has changed fundamentally, very largely, I suspect, as a result of the working of the Act. I want him to give, if he can, the figure for the level of unemployment which was taken into account by the Government actuaries when calculating this scheme in the first place.
Next, on the specific point of the change of pattern, we have a doubling of the contribution for men but the contribution for women has been raised 2½ times. Does this mean that there has been a substantial shift in the pattern of redundancies as between men and women, and, if not, why have we this greater increase in the contribution in respect of women than in respect of men?
I do not object to an earnings-related benefit, but it is financed out of flat-rate contributions, and the increase we are being asked to approve here merely highlights that this is the wrong way to redistribute within our economy. If we are trying to redistribute, as I think we should be, it is wrong to finance an earnings-related benefit out of a flat-rate contributions. I am against flat-rate contributions of any kind, and particularly in such matters as this. A percentage, for example, would be very much better.

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I come to that point now. I under stood the Minister to say that we could not lean on other people's experience. I have two constructive points to put to him in which I lean on other people's experience, for, although we may not have had experience of redundancy payments, other countries have. The first experience I mention is the American. Redundancy is not always the fault of the firm. Obviously, there are occasions such as, for example, a time of credit squeeze, when a firm is forced to make—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I regret having to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he is going very wide of the narrow subject we are debating, namely, whether these contributions in this country should be raised.
Mr. Pardoe: I accept your guide lines, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I think that what I have to say is closely relevant to the question of contributions. Obviously, if I am opposed to increased contributions, as I am, it is only constructive to put forward an alternative way of doing it. I am merely putting to the Government a suggestion for action which they might take.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot criticise the general principles of the Act. That is not open for discussion on this Order.
Mr. Pardoe: I said that I was not trying to criticise the general principles, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but in the context of the request for increased contributions, which has come about for various reasons, I am suggesting that there is experience on which we can lean. The Minister said that there was no such experience. I am merely answering that point. The Minister said that we could net lean on other people's experience. But I will try to relate my remarks to the present increases.
I believe that we should relate these increased contributions to the experience of the use of manpower within individual industries. In other words, it should not be a general increase across the whole board, as the Minister is now asking us to approve. For instance, in the building industry in America—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member cannot go into that kind of discussion on this Order. Those matters have been laid down in the Act. We are limited in this debate to the question whether the contributions under the Act should be increased in the way proposed by the Order.
Mr. Pardoe: Then I shall not mention the American experience. The Minister has probably got enough from my remarks so far to know what I am talking about. It is at least one constructive suggestion made tonight, even though it may not be within the rules of order.
My next point, too, may not come within the rules of order because it relates to German experience, but if we are to make people redundant we should ensure that they are made redundant in a way that comes within the terms of agreement within the works council. Within the German experience, for instance—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: This really has nothing to do with the contributions which are the subject matter of this Order.
Mr. Pardoe: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to have gone on so long, but I will only say that we welcomed the Bill in the first place, and I was trying to make two original and constructive contributions to this debate. I am sorry they have been out of order, but I should like to have a word with the Minister later.
11.13 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Listening to the Minister, I thought he would make a very good candidate as a Chancellor of the Exchequer who would get away with an increase in taxation with as little reaction from the House as any Chancellor of the Exchequer has ever done. He made his usual sympathetic approach, but I am not sure that the House is justified in taking this increase in the same way as he did.
This is an increase in a contribution on an insurance principle, but it is an increase in taxation which industry has to bear and which, on top of all the other increases that it has recently had to bear will, as my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has

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said, affect those industries that are concerned with keeping down prices in order to compete in the export market.
The increase arises not out of any misforecasting by the Minister of Labour—it has nothing to do with him; I think that his forecasts were reasonably right—but out of a change of policy after he had made his forecast. Despite what the right hon. Gentleman said to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) about the payments out being higher in June than subsequently, the fact is that it is because the payments out of the Redundancy Fund from June have been higher than was estimated prior to July that the right hon. Gentleman now has to ask for an increase in contribution. It is because the payments out are unexpectedly heavy because of the July measures taken by the Government that he is here now.
The House and the country should note one interesting thing. The Minister said that the increases in redundancy payments to the over-forties were rather higher than were expected. What is being done about this? It is, perhaps, the worst feature of the Government's policy that so many people over the age of 40 are being put on the labour market. What is the Minister doing to retrain such people or to find them new jobs? The right hon. Gentleman mentioned £180 as being the average payment to someone over the age of 40. That does not last long. Such a man finds it more difficult than any other to get another job. I see no sign in the Government's policy that they have taken special account of this or intend to take action specifically to help these people.
People over the age of 20 or 30 can quite easily get new jobs. People over the age of 40 have higher expenses than the others because their families are at an age requiring a regular income. There are many tragedies in this category at the present time. The Government must think, in terms of their present policy, about what they intend to do to deal with this situation.
The right hon. Gentleman gave the impression towards the end of his speech that the fund, in due course, will show a surplus. Incidentally, I was interested to note that the amount payable for women has been increased by more than for men. I do not know why this should
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be so. The original amount struck should, in my view, have been doubled outright for both men and women.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The woman always pays.
Mr. Lewis: As my hon. Friend says, the woman always pays.
The right hon. Gentleman said that there will be a surplus in the fund in due course. That means that he is setting the increase rather higher than necessary. If he is to get a surplus, at some stage he will surely bring the amount down, for clearly we do not want an increasing surplus in the fund. Surely, if the new figures mean a surplus in due course, the increases could have been less than what is proposed. Surely it is necessary to put on increases of rather less in the year or two ahead. This is a time when the Government should be trying to lighten the load on industry. The Minister should explain why he is so increasing the amount that, in due course, the fund will have a surplus.
The Government recently introduced the Selective Employment Tax. A large section of industry is supposedly to get a rebate. The Minister is used to talking with the C.B.I. which will tell him that the amount industrialists are to get back, by the time they have paid their administrative costs, will not amount to much. The increase in redundancy payments is taking away what is left of the repayments from the tax, which at the beginning was a nonsense and is even more so now in view of this Order.
These increases represent an increase in taxation. The Order has, of course, been brought in late at night, which no Chancellor of the Exchequer would ever get away with. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the fact that he has been able to get away with it.
11.20 p.m.
Sir Edward Brown: I apologise for the state of my voice. I am just back from illness but I had to stay for this debate. I am sure that the Minister will agree that we gave him our support for the Redundancy Payments Act and I am equally certain that he regards this Order with some sadness as well.
The Minister has asked us to accept the principle that these increases shall

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be paid solely and wholly by industry itself. When we established the fund, the principle was that the Treasury would pay together with industry. Now we are told that there is a deficit in the fund, a deficit which will increase as the years go on unless the contributions are increased. Despite the protests, the only conclusion must be that these increases have been brought about by Government policy itself, that the introduction of policy after policy has culminated in a great deal of unemployment, so that much more money has to be found for the fund.
I would be ruled out of order if I went into detail about how this money will enter the economy, and so I will simply leave that thought with hon. Members. We have to worry about the principle. I would have liked to vote against the Order, not because I do not want the chaps in industry to get the right amount of redundancy payment, but because I believe that the Government should honour their side, too. Industry is being asked to bolster up an almost bankrupt Treasury. I imagine that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told the Minister that there will be no more money from the Treasury for this fund and that he will have to put a levy on industry to see that redundancy payments are kept up. Those of us who work in or are connected with industry will have to tell our colleagues that once more the Government have put the yoke on them.
I am very sad that the right hon. Gentleman has argued the case which he put tonight and I am sure that he is not sincere about it, unless we are missing the point and the increase is to bolster up the Treasury. There is to be a surplus at some time, but where is that surplus to go? That is the question which we shall have to consider carefully as the months go on. I am unhappy because my party has decided not to vote against the Order and I hope that at some time we shall be able to debate it and make our differences of opinion clear in the Division Lobbies.
11.22 p.m.
Mr. Gunter: I am not sure what was and was not in order during the debate,
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so if I go out of order I hope that I shall be forgiven.
The hon. Member for Bath (Sir E. Brown) should get one thing clear. During the passage of the Redundancy Payments Bill it was always clearly understood that inevitably there would have to be revision and second thoughts of many of the assessments then made.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: But not so soon.
Mr. Gunter: The hon. Gentleman is right about that. Nevertheless, it was assumed that we would have to look at the position from time to time.
It is true that it emerged very early that our assessments had been wrong. In other words, by April, after only a few months, we were in trouble. I do not know of any Government policies which altered the position within three months. It was the basis of our assessments which was wrong. We were all equally wrong and I can jocularly report that the Opposition were a bit more wrong than we were.
Therefore, it is not Government policies which are to blame for what happened in April. I agree that Government policies with an inherent tendency to increase unemployment—I hope for only a short time—are bound to be taken into consideration when thinking about the future of the fund, but the allegation that the increase has been made at the instigation of the Treasury is not true.
I do not know what the Treasury will get out of it. All that I have suggested, and all that I want—and I think that industry would agree with this, although it might not agree to the increases—is that in handling a fund of this nature, one should have something in the region of perhaps 12 months' contributions in reserve to cover fluctuations in employment.
Sir E. Brown: Industry would surely be much more appreciative if the Government went along and said "This Fund is running at a deficit. We will meet our side as much as we are asking you to meet your side." This would be fair, but the right hon. Gentleman has said that the Government are proposing to give no extra money at all.
Mr. Gunter: That is true and I will deal with it later.

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The hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) raised a point which puzzled me. I think that I may have misheard him because, as I understand it, there is no power in the Act to make a direct grant to the fund. Was the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should go outside the Act, and that the Treasury should make a grant to the fund? Under the Act the deficit has to be covered by borrowings from the Exchequer, which are limited to £8 million and up to £20 million with Treasury approval and affirmative Resolutions. Those borrowings have to be repaid. The increase in contributions would therefore be heavier.
I did not quite follow another point raised by the hon. Gentleman. He said that there was a movement of 8,000 to 9,000 workers a year. This is true, but it includes people leaving jobs voluntarily, and is part of the pattern of British industry. In addition, there are those retired, dismissed for misconduct and of the remaining redundants, the majority do not have the service qualifications.
I have been asked the interesting question about the figures we took in the preliminary studies to quantify the relationship between unemployment and redundancy. These surveys pointed towards the conclusion that funnily enough, there was no direct relationship between the level of unemployment and the incidence of redundancy. It is relevant to note in this context that the Northern Ireland scheme is not in deficit and yet the level of unemployment is much higher than it is here. It is very difficult to find out where this relationship is.
The question of anomalies was raised and this is where I wonder whether I may go out of order. I do not want anomalies, because there have been allegations of collusion—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not pursue this subject in any detail.
Mr. Gauter: I will leave it at once.
A point has been made about the C.B.I. not representing the small man. This is always a difficulty, but I thought that under the wide leadership, following the amalgamations which have taken place, that this was to be the pattern. If
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that be not the case and I cannot negotiate with it, then I do not know with whom I can negotiate. The C.B.I. is supposed to represent the lot.
In fairness to the C.B.I., I must say that the idea that it does not represent the small man is not good enough. I have always found it to be very tender and delicate towards the interests of the smaller man. Whether there is a Conservative or Labour Minister of Labour, the instrument at his hand for consultation is the C.B.I., and we shall have to use it.
I am always open to an approach by anyone, as long as they do not come too often, and if the small men want to be represented I do not mind listening to them. At present, this is the instrument that we have to use. If we can collate any evidence concerning anomalies, I shall be happy to look at it. It is, however, a bit too early at this time to know whether the acts of collusion which are alleged are in earnest. I will be prepared to consider that later.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) asked whether the Redundancy Fund could be used for the purposes of training. The Act spells out precisely the purposes to which contributions to the fund can be applied. Its sole purpose is to provide assistance to individual employers towards the cost of redundancy payments by spreading part of the cost over the whole of industry.
As hon. Members opposite will know, the case for a central fund was put strongly by the Confederation of British Industry and was accepted by the Trades Union Congress before it was adopted by the Government. It would, therefore, be a breach of faith to divert any part of the fund from this purpose, even if it were possible without legislation to do so. I could not offer my hon. Friend any hope about that.
The need for providing adequate retraining facilities, especially for redundant workers, is fully appreciated, but the problem here is not one of finance alone. We have no doubt that the great bulk of training required will, as always, be at the semi-skilled level. This type of training is best undertaken in industry itself by the new employer since the training is usually best geared to his own production lines and processes. As my hon. Friend knows, we are in consultation

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with the Industrial Training Boards to see what more might be done concerning retraining. At present, however, I have nothing further to add to my state-meat on the subject of 24th October.
I have taken note of the points which have been raised. The views of industry have been put to me with equal force to the views which have been put to me tonight about the absolute necessity for not imposing any burden which can possibly be avoided. I am glad of the cooperation that I have been given. I said in the latter part of my speech in introducing the Order that if, in the event, the fund should recover more quickly than expected—this was one of the points raised by the hon. Member for Bath (Sir E. Brown), who is no longer present—and if a satisfactory reserve is built up in a comparatively short period, I shall be prepared at that stage to review the contributions which I now ask the House to approve. I promise the House that I would certainly come to the House again with a report on the state of the fund.
Mr. Ridley: The Minister has not dealt with the point made by many of my hon. Friends that at this time, as the right hon. Gentleman is still very short of information, he should let the fund go into deficit up to the £8 million or £20 million until we see where we are and we know much more about the whole question.
Mr. Gunter: I am sorry, I should have answered that.
We gave the matter serious consideration, and the point was put to us by the C.B.I., but on balance we came to the view that it was better to do this now rather than wait until the deficit was so great that the contribution would have been very much greater. In such a matter, it is extremely difficult to make an assessment for the future. If somebody asks whether, in three or four months' time, we will have the necessary information, I do not know. I doubt very much whether we would have the necessary information because of the nature of this unexplored field.
My opinion, therefore, was that we should do it at this stage, on the undertaking—it may be proved that we have either underestimated or overestimated—that if we can do it we can review the position, rather than let the deficit build
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up and, in the end, have to make the increase much greater than it is now.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Redundancy Fund Contributions Order, 1966, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th October, be approved.

COMPANIES (ASSISTANCE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Charles R. Morris.]
11.35 p.m.
Mr. Eric Moonman: The subject which I wish to raise tonight follows closely the debate that has taken place in the last hour and a half.
I wish to say straight away that the difficulty that I face in looking at this question of Government assistance to the small and medium-sized firm was one which came about when I approached a number of sources in London to ascertain what type of information was available to help the small and medium-sized firm. I got some surprising answers. Indeed, in two cases the well-stocked libraries were not able to offer anything other than a couple of brochures which were available to industry generally.
To show that the situation is not much better in the House of Commons, I approached the Library here, specifying that I required literature dealing with the small and medium-sized firm. I got statements dealing with the Development Areas Order, 1966, and some pictures and booklets about Cumbernauld. I am all for the enthusiasm of the Board of Trade, but this is part of the problem of trying to ascertain what services are available to small and medium-sized firms.
I want to make another observation before dealing with the aims and objectives of Government policy towards the small and medium-sized firm. Some years ago when I was concerned with a management organisation various views were expressed by managers towards the rôle of the Labour Party and the Labour Government, and I think they ran something like this: Labour as such was anti-business, or it could not care less, or its protection of the trade unions made it

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opposed to the business system. Incidentally, I was never quite sure what was meant by "the business system".
One thing, however, seems quite clear. The assumption that Labour policy is anti-industry is one that should have been removed many years ago. It should be stated that a Labour Government is concerned with the development of the forward-looking enterprise of industry and it is concerned to provide assistance. I think that some of the errors that have been made in describing Labour policy in this way have not helped in the last two years of Government life.
There are three objectives of Labour policy in government. One is to plan and to use planning as an instrument in the efficient running and development of industry. The second is the proper use of science and technology, and the third is to support the small and medium-sized firm. I shall not deal with the first two objectives here, because I want to concentrate on the sort of Government assistance which is given to the small and medium-sized firm. It is true to say that one of the difficulties that the small and medium-sized firm faces is the feeling of isolation, that too much attention is given to the larger unit. In the earlier debate which took place, the question whether or not the C.B.I. was representative of the small and medium-sized firm obviously has some validity.
First, we must be clear what we mean by the small and medium-sized firm, and also we must consider the impact that it has on British industry as a whole. According to the Annual Abstract of Statistics, there are 55,000 manufacturing establishments in this country; 54,000 employ fewer than 1,000 people; 52,000 of the 55,000 employ under 500. This is a very tidy sum of organisations which are small, which are not likely to make the headlines, which are not likely to command a great deal of interest in the columns of our newspapers, but which, nevertheless, are making an enormous contribution both to the productive and the exporting life of the country.
It is also interesting to examine some of the detailed information associated with it. In the engineering and electrical goods industry, nine out of 10 firms employ less than 500 people. In clothing and footwear, out of 7,095 establishments,
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only 22 have more than 1,000 employees. To take one other example, that of textiles, out of 5,559 establishments, only 54 have more than 1,000 employees. Although statistics can often give a distorted impression to a particular subject these figures survey a field which is often ignored and sometimes mutilated because of the enormous emphasis given to the larger unit. The British economy will depend for a very long time on smaller unit operating, and it is perfectly relevant for any Government to give close attention to what has happened.
There are three things associated with Government aid and assistance. The first is mechanisation and production; the second is concerned with export and trade; and the third is concerned with the individual worker relationships. It has been a practice for some time for national type organisations to be wholly sponsored or given considerable grants by the State. I have in mind organisations like the British Institute of Management and the British Productivity Council. It cannot be denied that a considerable job has been done by those and other organisations. I would mention that we are in the process of welcoming and supporting the year recently inaugurated by the British Productivity Council dealing with quality and reliability.
Here, the case is well taken that, with direct support from the Government, we see an opportunity opening out for companies—particularly small and medium-sized companies—to be made aware of ways of raising efficiency and productivity and, in this case, relating it to a specific item, the quality and reliability of the goods.
Surveys which have been carried out in Europe, America and in this country have shown that the costs of maintaining quality range between 4 and 14 per cent. of a firm's gross turnover. That gives an average of about 10 per cent., which means that a large amount of money is lost in the scrapping and reworking of goods. When investigations relating to quality and reliability are carried out, we find that considerable savings can be made. To give an example, in the case of one company, Clutson and Kemp, of Coalville, it was established that not only were savings made, but relations between management and trade unions have improved enormously.

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We have an example here of a national organisation, with Government support, making a great effort to establish a particular problem and trying to solve the problem. Therefore, the point behind this and many other attempts to improve productivity is concerned with the initiative shown by the State, and the communication; in other words, the information which is made available by the State to a particular organisation.
These are very difficult areas, and, in replying to this debate, I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to explain the sort of initiative which has been taken by the Board of Trade. I would like to suggest that the National Productivity Year, which was another example of B.P.C. initiative, was not perhaps quite the success that had been anticipated. I should like to think that the present Q.R. year will be much more successful. Not only in terms of this year, but in all sorts of other ways, in terms of manufacturing and production, it would be useful to know exactly what the Government would like to do. They have to show initiative in visiting, meeting, persuading, urging and facilitating the sons of things about which industry wants to know.
My experience of dealing with small and medium-sized firms suggests that the doubts and conservatism which is reflected by management and ownership is organic. Perhaps I might tell the House of one experience which I had when I was the educational director of a management training centre in Essex. I visited a small firm to try to persuade it to give some attention to the question of improving its interest in educational facilities, and generally to consider management techniques. This was not a revolutionary idea, and yet the works manager said, quite bluntly, that the firm had its share of the market with its customers, and it was not concerned about increasing its capacity or worrying about market research.
That is not an isolated experience. It has been borne out by other people engaged in industrial liaison work who are concerned with meeting industry in a very bare state. This is far removed from the sort of impact and initiative taken by the C.B.I. This is dealing with the almost organic conservatism on the
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part of industry which is not only unaware of the change, but is highly suspicious of anything concerned with organisational improvement.
We ought to give some attention to the other organisations which receive Government aid and assistance through their member companies. Although I have not the time, nor would I wish, to itemise them, but I must mention the Rural Industries Bureau, which receives about £250,000, and its technical services are very valuable. I can think of some recent examples. A small firm producing baby clothing was encouraged to engage in a Government study. Before the study the wage bill was £7,300. After the study this increased by £1,000, and the turnover of the organisation increased by nearly 20 per cent.
There are many other examples of the Rural Industries Bureau being concerned in dealing with some of the industries of this country which have been protected for many years. It has encouraged managements, in consultation with the workers, to consider ways in which improvements can be brought about. I fully support the way in which the Bureau has tackled its job, and about 2,000 visits have been made in the last year to nearly 1,000 firms.
I am also aware of the proposal put forward by the Centre for Interfirm Comparison, because here is an important technique which is not simply to encourage studies of specific companies, and is not just an overall survey of industry. For many years this organisation has been trying to get companies within an industry to look at their resources to see how far they can be improved. It has made these investigations into about 50 industries, including machine tools, chemicals, clothing, and textiles, and it has also been responsible for similar surveys outside this country.
This type of activity highlights the weaknesses of organisation and is ideally suited for the small and medium sized firms which do not have the specialists which the larger organisations have. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity of saying what sort of initiative the Board of Trade is likely to take with organisations like the Centre for Interfirm Comparison. I am sure that he would not doubt the sort of work it

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is doing is valuable not only to industry, but to the nation as a whole.
The second broad area of Government interest is the one dealing with trade and exports. The small firms find it difficult to know where to turn. Possibly they have had experience of trying to go to agencies and libraries. They know that they will be given a massive amount of material, and it is difficult to sort out what it is that they want to have answered.
I congratulate the Board of Trade on producing a booklet by Michael Shanks which goes a long way towards explaining in detail the way in which one can become operational in exports. The problem is not merely one of putting the man in touch with information, although I have stressed the importance of this. It means also that once the manufacturer has sold his goods abroad, he arranges with the retail stores that there is a follow through.
This is one area of our exports which troubles me. When I was in the United States I checked on the way that things were done. This was a purely private matter because I wanted to buy some goods. I checked on the extent to which some of our manufacturers and large stores bother with after-sales service. I was told by a senior sales organiser in a large store in Philadelphia that the French and Germans take a great deal of trouble to provide new catalogues, new facilities and new displays, but that somehow the British never get round to it. In reference to the goods that I was looking at I should mention that although the firm concerned was of international repute it was particularly bad at this.
I therefore suggest that the State should take an interest in this aspect of the question, and that it might consider sponsoring a survey—certainly a much more discriminating survey than the one I attempted myself in a small way—throughout the whole of the United States, selecting key centres—because this is one of our main markets—to see the way in which our goods are being marketed and where we fall down. This is very important because the image that I got from the companies concerned in this country and from the main centres in
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New York is very different from the impression that I got at the point of sale.
The other point to bear in mind is that the debate has now begun on British membership of E.E.C. The small and medium-sized companies will soon want to know exactly where they stand, and we have a right to know in what way their needs will be met. There is no hostility in this matter; there is no doubt about the desire of the small and medium-sized firms for Britain's entry into Europe. I am reminded of the survey carried out by the British Association of Chambers of Commerce, which showed that 41,000 out of about 56,000 replies suggested that the firms concerned were in favour of Britain's entry.
The third and last area in which assistance and aid are necessary is that of worker relations. A great deal of legislation has been put forward in the last few years by the previous Conservative Government and the present Government to try to involve the State, to a much greater extent, in what happens in industry. The large organisation is at an advantage here, in that it has a greater range of specialists and so is able to utilise to a much greater extent the influences which are reflected in society as a whole.
By this, I mean that the small and medium-sized firms tend to run their businesses as autocracies. Although there are some advantages in this—it can be said that the whole thing is personal, and we can point to works managers and general managers who know the names of all the members of the staff—we have also to recognise the fact that in these small and medium-sized firms the changes that are reflected in our society are not always too obvious.
Therefore, by training and encouragement the State must increase its responsibility in this direction. The job itself cannot be done by the State. The Minister, however, may like to consider the possibility of using existing organisations. I am reminded of the British Association for Commercial and Industrial Education in this connection, which is particularly suited to take on the rôle of training staff, and particularly retraining. We have had many discussions about the need to retrain staff made redundant, and to examine what can be done by training staff.

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I think of the job done by the Esso Company, at Fawley, some years ago, when, as a means of introducing a package deal, it was possible for the company itself to bring about the retraining of employees. But in the small and medium-sized firms this is not possible. In view of what I have said it is sometimes not even considered desirable. This question must be looked at more seriously.
The other fact, tied up with the question of employee relations, is that the State has an interest in what is happening. It is reflected in recent legislation—the Prices and Incomes Act—which involves the State deeply in what happens between managements and trade unions.
I return to the original comments made by management about the attitude of Labour towards business. These are wrong and I hope that they will be dismissed. Management and workers have much to gain from Government interest and activity in industry and business and the State has a responsibility to support those units which might be isolated from the advantages of large units because of the latter's expertise and the way they can use science and research and produce meaningful technology.
The State also has the responsibility to provide confidence in industry so that industry can make its decisions without constantly worrying about whether there will be a change of policy. The State should provide this confidence and I suggest that industry should prove by its actions that it deserves it.
11.56 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. George Darling): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Moonman) for getting some useful information on an important subject on the record and for putting forward some constructive ideas which clearly arise from his experience and knowledge. I note his point about the difficulty of finding any publications which adequately explain Government assistance to small firms. The difficulty is that Government assistance at present is so widespread that we should need many publications, but I take my hon. Friend's point that sections of these publications dealing with assistance to small and medium-sized firms could well be brought together.
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I am not complaining about the time for which my hon. Friend spoke, because we agreed upon this before he began, but he covered a very wide field and it is more important that his views should be on the record rather than that I should try to discuss the matter with him. I want only to put on record also some of the things which the Government are doing to help small and medium firms. The Government are not anti-business. This is a stupid observation and I share my hon. Friend's criticism of it. Obviously, in a mixed economy, we want the private enterprise part to be enterprising and profitable. Where Government assistance is required to make free enterprise efficient and profitable, it will be forthcoming.
Exports is what I am most deeply concerned with and in this respect we intend to issue a handbook called, "A Handbook of Government Services to Exporters" before the end of the year, or early next, which will be a comprehensive guide and a useful reference book.
It is worth while noting that in helping small firms to get into exports and making a success of doing so, in the nine regional offices of the Board of Trade to help export firms, we have trained staff who discuss export problems and requirements with individual firms. Last year alone, over 18,000 visits on export matters were made from regional export offices, which is a pretty good development.
It is impossible to list all the activities of the Export Services Branch of the Board of Trade, but one example of how larger organisations with developed overseas contacts can help small ones venturing into overseas markets for the first time is the "pick-a-back" scheme. The Export Services Branch provides a directory of about 400 experienced exporters who are willing to make their services available to smaller firms making complementary products. This is working out extremely well.
I have taken note of my hon. Friend's suggestion about the need for a follow-up service where export developments are taking place, as I have of his suggestion—which he will appreciate is not a new one—that there should be local surveys into overseas markets. These and other ideas are already being considered by the British National Export

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Council and the various export groups under the council, although I agree with my hon. Friend that these ideas should be given more force.
My hon. Friend referred to the importance of Government assistance on technical matters, including management and production, and I have taken note of his remarks about making sure that Quality and Reliability Year is a success. Based on the experience of Productivity Year, this is an enterprise which British industry needs, remembering that there are new approaches to and, perhaps, new methods of dealing with some of the problems that exist. In saying that there is need for a better approach, I am deliberately being as neutral on this issue as I can, particularly in commenting on whether or not British Productivity Year was successful.
I do not need to explain to my hon. Friend the work done by the productivity centres of the British Productivity Council, the work done by the British Institute of Management and the work now being developed by the Ministry of Technology. A number of specialist services for research and development are being expanded by that Ministry and in some of these the needs of smaller firms are particularly emphasised. Unfortunately, there is not time tonight in which to give a full description of the Ministry's activities. I will merely mention the industrial liaison centres which are responsible for maintaining personal contact with local firms, particularly the smaller ones, encouraging them to make greater use of existing scientific and technical knowledge. This service is probably one of the most hopeful
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developments for smaller firms which are actively pursuing the aim of greater efficiency and prosperity.
My hon. Friend raised the question of manpower and labour-management relationships in industry. I fully agree with him about the need to improve industrial relations. This is a somewhat unusual problem in that one would expect the managements of smaller firms to be on friendlier personal terms with their employees. Even so, there is great need for a better understanding and better organisation of industrial relations, and here the Ministry of Labour is doing a considerable amount of work.
The Ministry's industrial relations officers act not only as conciliation officers in industrial disputes, but also provide an advisory service to firms on the aspects of management to which my hon. Friend referred. I agree that this also requires the activities of nongovernmental institutions, but certainly the Government, through the Ministry of Labour, will do everything possible to encourage better industrial relations to achieve the aims we have been discussing, particularly among smaller firms.
As I said, the purpose of this short debate is served in a more valuable way if it is designed to get my hon. Friend's ideas and constructive suggestions on the record, rather than that I should try to discuss each point he raised at this late hour. This has been an interesting and useful debate and I congratulate my hon. Friend for having raised this subject.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at four minutes past Twelve o'clock.

GAS
  North Sea Gas
  North Sea Gas
  Gasholders
  Gasholders
  Gas Council
  Gas Council
COAL
  Prices
  Prices
  Homefire Smokless Fuel
  Homefire Smokless Fuel
  Smokeless Fuels (Southampton)
  Smokeless Fuels (Southampton)
  Coal-Mining (Subsidence) Act 1957
  Coal-Mining (Subsidence) Act 1957
  Gloco Nuts (Price Increases)
  Gloco Nuts (Price Increases)
  National Coal Board
  National Coal Board
ELECTRICITY
  Housing Projects (Initial Charges)
  Housing Projects (Initial Charges)
  Central Electricity Generating Board
  Central Electricity Generating Board
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Cooling Towers (Reinforcement)
  Cooling Towers (Reinforcement)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Pipe-Lines Act 1962 (Compliance)
  Pipe-Lines Act 1962 (Compliance)
  North Sea Fish
  North Sea Fish
  North Sea Projects (Award of Licences)
  North Sea Projects (Award of Licences)
TECHNOLOGY
  Scientific Instrument Industry (Development Contracts)
  Scientific Instrument Industry (Development Contracts)
  Machine Tool Industry (Exports)
  Machine Tool Industry (Exports)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Automation (Scotland)
  Automation (Scotland)
  Technological Advance
  Technological Advance
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Sterling Area
  Sterling Area
  Separated Wives (Taxation)
  Separated Wives (Taxation)
  Economic Measures
  Economic Measures
  Drake's Drum
  Drake's Drum
  Public Bills (Cost)
  Public Bills (Cost)
  Selective Employment Tax
  Selective Employment Tax
  British Forces, Germany (Costs)
  British Forces, Germany (Costs)
  Treasury Ministers (Overseas Visits)
  Treasury Ministers (Overseas Visits)
  Productive Investment (Profitability)
  Productive Investment (Profitability)
  Anglo-German Offset Agreement
  Anglo-German Offset Agreement
  Rhodesian Brokers (Lloyd's Underwriters)
  Rhodesian Brokers (Lloyd's Underwriters)
  Treasury (Deputations)
  Treasury (Deputations)
  Civil Servants (Salary Increases)
  Civil Servants (Salary Increases)
  Rhodesia (U.K. Exports)
  Rhodesia (U.K. Exports)
  Government Entertainment (Expenditure)
  Government Entertainment (Expenditure)
  Computers (Government Departments)
  Computers (Government Departments)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Crown Properties (Smoke Control)
  Crown Properties (Smoke Control)
  Water Supplies, Dorchester (Contamination)
  Water Supplies, Dorchester (Contamination)
  Rate Relief
  Rate Relief
HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Annual Report
  Annual Report
TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS
  Administrative Staff
  Administrative Staff
VIRGIN ISLANDS
  Beef Island Airfield
  Beef Island Airfield
BERMUDA
  Constituency Boundaries
  Constituency Boundaries
ANTIGUA
  Antigua Sugar Factory Limited
  Antigua Sugar Factory Limited
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Departmental Ministers (Overseas Visits)
  Departmental Ministers (Overseas Visits)
  Deputations
  Deputations
NEW HEBRIDES
  Anglo-French Talks
  Anglo-French Talks
BOARD OF TRADE
  South Africa (Imperial Preference)
  South Africa (Imperial Preference)
  Motor Industry (South African Market)
  Motor Industry (South African Market)
  Advance Factories, Ashington
  Advance Factories, Ashington
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Export Credit Guarantee Department (Rhodesia)
  Export Credit Guarantee Department (Rhodesia)
  Marine Traffic (North Sea)
  Marine Traffic (North Sea)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  George Blake
  George Blake
  Animals (Research Experiments)
  Animals (Research Experiments)
  Firearms (Indictable Offences)
  Firearms (Indictable Offences)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  PUBLIC ORDER ACT (PROSECUTION)
  PUBLIC ORDER ACT (PROSECUTION)
  SELECT COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE (REPORT)
  SELECT COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE (REPORT)
  LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (DEPUTATIONS)
  LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (DEPUTATIONS)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Agricultural Commodities (European Economic Community's Import Levies)
  Agricultural Commodities (European Economic Community's Import Levies)
  Agricultural Industry (Prices and Grants)
  Agricultural Industry (Prices and Grants)
  Fatstock Carcases (Sunday Certification)
  Fatstock Carcases (Sunday Certification)
  Salmon (Drift-Netting)
  Salmon (Drift-Netting)
  White Fish Landings
  White Fish Landings
  Inshore Fishing Fleet
  Inshore Fishing Fleet
  Hill Cows and Sheep (Subsidies)
  Hill Cows and Sheep (Subsidies)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Northumberland)
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Northumberland)
  VIETNAM
  VIETNAM
  IRELAND (UNIFICATION)
  IRELAND (UNIFICATION)
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION (MEETING OF HEADS OF GOVERNMENT).
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION (MEETING OF HEADS OF GOVERNMENT).
  TREATY OF ROME (STATUTE LAW)
  TREATY OF ROME (STATUTE LAW)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  HONOURS LISTS
  HONOURS LISTS
  PRIME MINISTER (DEPUTATIONS)
  PRIME MINISTER (DEPUTATIONS)
  QUESTIONS TO PRIME MINISTER
  QUESTIONS TO PRIME MINISTER
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Deputations
  Deputations
COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Deputations
  Deputations
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Armed Services (Rhodesian U.D.I.)
  Armed Services (Rhodesian U.D.I.)
  Javelin Air Defence Force, Zambia (Cost)
  Javelin Air Defence Force, Zambia (Cost)
  Low-flying Aircraft (Carmarthenshire)
  Low-flying Aircraft (Carmarthenshire)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER (DEPUTATIONS)
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER (DEPUTATIONS)
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Deputations
  Deputations
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Comprehensive Education, Northumberland (Plan)
  Comprehensive Education, Northumberland (Plan)
  Teachers, Wales
  Teachers, Wales
  Doctors (Educational and Medical School Training Cost)
  Doctors (Educational and Medical School Training Cost)
  ANGLO-ARAB RELATIONS
  ANGLO-ARAB RELATIONS
  ALLIED TRAVEL OFFICE (EAST GERMANS)
  ALLIED TRAVEL OFFICE (EAST GERMANS)
  FOREIGN OFFICE (DEPUTATIONS)
  FOREIGN OFFICE (DEPUTATIONS)
HOSPITALS
  Hospital Building (Wales)
  Hospital Building (Wales)
  St. Mary's Hospital, Portsmouth (Laundry Facilities)
  St. Mary's Hospital, Portsmouth (Laundry Facilities)
  Leybourne Grange Hospital, Maidstone
  Leybourne Grange Hospital, Maidstone
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Dental Estimates Board (Establishment)
  Dental Estimates Board (Establishment)
  Disabled Drivers
  Disabled Drivers
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  British Motor Corporation, Oxford (Redundant Workers)
  British Motor Corporation, Oxford (Redundant Workers)
  Remploy Factories, Wales
  Remploy Factories, Wales
  Unemployment (Wales)
  Unemployment (Wales)
  Unemployment (Oxford)
  Unemployment (Oxford)
  Disabled Persons, Wales
  Disabled Persons, Wales
  Government Training Centres, Wales
  Government Training Centres, Wales
  Slate Industry, Wales (Employees)
  Slate Industry, Wales (Employees)
  Redundancy Payments (Scotland)
  Redundancy Payments (Scotland)
  Unemployment (Ashington and Morpeth)
  Unemployment (Ashington and Morpeth)
  Strikes
  Strikes
  Hotels and Restaurants (Service Charges)
  Hotels and Restaurants (Service Charges)
  Rootes Factory, Coventry (Dispute)
  Rootes Factory, Coventry (Dispute)
  Monckton Pit Closures (N.U.M. Recommendation)
  Monckton Pit Closures (N.U.M. Recommendation)
LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Morecambe Bay and Solway Estuary Barrage Schemes
  Morecambe Bay and Solway Estuary Barrage Schemes
  Ground and Chief Rents (Collection)
  Ground and Chief Rents (Collection)
  MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (DEPUTATIONS)
  MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (DEPUTATIONS)
OVESEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Aid (Statistics)
  Aid (Statistics)
  Deputations
  Deputations
  PAYMASTER-GENERAL (DEPUTATIONS)
  PAYMASTER-GENERAL (DEPUTATIONS)
POST OFFICE
  Deputations
  Deputations
  Post Office Savings Bank
  Post Office Savings Bank
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Pirate Radio Stations (Listeners)
  Pirate Radio Stations (Listeners)
PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND WORKS
  Deputations
  Deputations
SCOTLAND
  New Town Corporations (Housing Accounts)
  New Town Corporations (Housing Accounts)
  Scottish Office (Deputations)
  Scottish Office (Deputations)
  Hill Cows and Sheep (Subsidy)
  Hill Cows and Sheep (Subsidy)
  Farm Improvement Grants
  Farm Improvement Grants
  Rate Rebate Scheme
  Rate Rebate Scheme
SOCIAL SECURITY
  Solid Fuel Prices (Selective Employment Tax)
  Solid Fuel Prices (Selective Employment Tax)
  Deputations
  Deputations
RAILWAYS
  Glasgow-Edinburgh Line (Gas-Turbine Locomotives)
  Glasgow-Edinburgh Line (Gas-Turbine Locomotives)
  Pay Scales
  Pay Scales
  Capital Investment Programme
  Capital Investment Programme
ROADS
  Grizebeck Hill Diversion
  Grizebeck Hill Diversion
  Road Markings
  Road Markings
  Double White Lines
  Double White Lines
TRANSPORT
  Deputations
  Deputations
WALES
  Trunk Road (Swansea-Whitland)
  Trunk Road (Swansea-Whitland)
  Roads
  Roads
  Llyn Celyn and Llyn Tegid Reservoirs
  Llyn Celyn and Llyn Tegid Reservoirs
  Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association
  Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association
  Woodland Industries (Mid-Wales)
  Woodland Industries (Mid-Wales)
  Rural Industries (Surveys)
  Rural Industries (Surveys)
  Tourist Industry (Financial Aid)
  Tourist Industry (Financial Aid)
  Forestry Commission
  Forestry Commission
  Welsh Office (Deputations)
  Welsh Office (Deputations)
  Coal Tips (Tree Planting)
  Coal Tips (Tree Planting)
  Derelict Land
  Derelict Land

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester
The Lord Hindlip—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.

CRUISER CONVERSIONS
2.35 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the conversion of H.M.S. "Blake" will be completed and whether similar conversions will be carried out to H.M.S. "Lion" and H.M.S. "Tiger".]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL NAVY (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, plans for the conversions of the "Tiger" Class cruisers are going ahead in accordance with decisions announced in the 1966 White Paper. The first ship to be converted, H.M.S. "Blake", is expected to complete towards the end of 1968.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply, but in view of the great increase in the versatility and effectiveness of these cruisers which their conversion to helicopter-carrying cruisers will lead to, can he confirm that the full conversion programme will in fact be carried out to all three ships?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, it is difficult to say what the noble Earl means by "the full conversion". Nevertheless, an important element, and one of the factors which has been under consideration, is the need to take into account revised helicopter plans. As the noble Earl knows, it is proposed to take into the Fleet the SH.3D anti-submarine
1172
warfare helicopter, and this aircraft, with its very much greater capacity to cope with the submarine threat, is an important element in considering how these ships shall be converted.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, am I right in supposing that they will be converted to carry up to four of these helicopters? Can the noble Lord confirm that this is the case?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, that is correct.
LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, whether the Minister of Defence is considering the designing of a new class of ship to succeed these ageing cruisers for the purpose we are now talking about?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, that is another question.

BEVERCOTES COLLIERY
2.38 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the National Coal Board have now agreed that the expensively equipped Bevercotes colliery shall be worked for only five days a week; and whether this is in accordance with Government policy on productivity.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, the National Coal Board announced on October 31 that Bevercotes colliery would be operated under existing national wage agreements. The Board considered that five-day working at the pit was preferable to further delays. However, on November 10 the National Union of Mineworkers proposed that the special arrangements previously discussed, but on which agreement had not been possible, should be modified. The new proposals are for eighteen shifts to be worked each week, including three shifts at weekends. The Board are giving immediate consideration to them. The Government hope that more intensive working of expensive capital equipment will thus prove possible. The lessons

1173
expected to be learned from the new techniques to be used at this experimental pit may have far-reaching effects on further improvements in productivity in the coal industry, which is in accordance with the Government's policy of encouraging increases in productivity throughout the economy.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may thank the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, for that Answer which conveys a great improvement on the position that we knew before he made that statement? May I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that we cannot afford to install extremely expensive machinery which is then not fully used?
LORD STONHAM: Yes, my Lords, but this is a revolutionary experimental plant, and as the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, will be aware, with revolutionary techniques of this kind it is much easier to solve the technical problems than to solve the human problems relating to them. The important point is that this new agreement has been, or is likely to be, achieved. We shall get started, and from this we expect very great improvements to flow throughout coal-getting.

IMPORTED TEXTILE MACHINERY
2.40 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government—

(a) what was the value of textile machinery of a character not manufactured in this country imported in 1965 free of duty; and

(b) on what grounds the free entry was abolished.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN): My Lords, during 1965 remission of duty was recommended on textile machinery valued at £10·3 million on the grounds that similar machinery was not procurable from domestic sources. Duty remission has been suspended because, after reexamining the matter and considering the arguments put forward by the various economic development committees, Her
1174
Majesty's Government concluded that the scheme was no longer in the national interest.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, arising out of that reply may I ask the noble Lord two supplementary questions? First, is it not apparent from the large volume of machinery that was imported that it is required to keep the industry efficient and up to date, and would he not ask his colleagues in the appropriate Ministry to reconsider the matter? Secondly, can he refute the reports which are circulating that this decision to abolish free entry was taken without consultation, which was to be expected, with the Confederation of British Industry, the "little Neddy" for the wool textile industry, or the central employer organisation, the Wool Textile Delegation?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, the decision to abolish the remission of duty is a decision taken on balance of advantage to the economy as a whole. It is realised that it may represent some disadvantage to the industry using this machinery, but great difficulties have been experienced in the operation of the duty remission procedure. It was becoming increasingly expensive and was causing friction between manufacturers of the machinery and the industry itself. On the second question, I am unable now to say precisely whether consultations took place with the C.B.I. or the wool textile industry. What I can inform your Lordships is that full discussions took place with the national economic development committee concerned, and the views of the other "little Neddies" were taken into account.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, while I agree with every word uttered by the Minister in his reply to my noble friend, may I ask whether he is aware that remission of duty on imported machinery has not been allowed to any other manufacturing company in the world?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, I was not aware of that, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, from the reply which the noble Lord has given it is to be understood that the reports that those bodies which I mentioned were not consulted are correct. Secondly, does the

1175
noble Lord not appreciate that the value of the machinery imported itself indicates the necessity for this industry to be up to date and to get prototypes not manufactured in this country?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, the noble Lord is mistaken. I was quite clear in my answer to his first supplementary question. I do not know the position with regard to consultations with the C.B.I. or the wool textile industry. If the noble Lord wishes to know the answer, I will get it for him. On the other point, I have already said that the decision taken was on balance, and it seemed to be on balance to industry as a whole. It is recognised that this could be some disadvantage to the wool industry itself.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that answer. In view of strained relations with the C.B.I. that have developed in connection with other matters, can the noble Lord give an assurance that in future there will be full consultation?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, the noble Lord is rather pressing on this matter. The inference from his question is that consultation did not take place on this occasion. May I reiterate that I do not know whether consultation did take place, but I will find out for him.

TEES VALLEY AND CLEVELAND WATER BILL
2.48 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Your Lordships will perhaps expect a few words of explanation of the purpose of this Motion. Private Bill Standing Order No. 104 provides that every Private Bill which is opposed shall be committed to a Select Committee of five Lords who shall be named by the Committee of Selection. In view of the controversial nature of this Bill and the widespread interest it has aroused, the Committee of Selection met and recommended that the Select Committee to which the Tees Valley and Cleveland Water Bill is committed should consist of seven Peers. The Committee
1176
will start sitting on Tuesday, November 22, and it is expected that the hearing may last some three weeks. I beg to move.
Moved, That Private Bill Standing Order No. 104 be dispensed with for the purpose of allowing the appointment by the Committee of Selection of seven Lords to sit on the Select Committee on the Tees Valley and Cleveland Water Bill.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Lord Wells-Pestell be appointed a member of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills in the place of the late Lord Haire of Whiteabbey.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ARBITRATION (INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT DISPUTES) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

BARBADOS INDEPENDENCE BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL [H.L.]
2.49 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered. Perhaps I might give notice to the House that I propose, when we come to the first Amendment, to ask the House to treat the Amendments en bloc.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Champion.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, perhaps I may raise a point here. When we come to Schedule 3, Amendments 14 to 19, I have two points to raise on Amendments Nos. 18 and 19. I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I raised these points on Amendments 14 to 19.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I was hoping that it could be done that way. Perhaps the noble Lord will indicate, when I have moved the Amendments en bloc, where he wishes to raise any objections or queries on any of the Amendments Nos. 1 to 19.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill [60] as first printed for the House of Commons]
(No. 1)
Clause 19, page 12, line 26, at end insert—
("(c) the performance by a registered medical practitioner of an operation on an animal for the purpose of removing an organ or tissue for use in the treatment of human beings;
(d) the carrying out or performance of any treatment, test or operation by a registered medical practitioner or a registered dentist at the request of a person registered in the register of veterinary surgeons or the supplementary veterinary register.")
(Nos. 2–8)
Clause 28, page 17, line 18, leave out ("of veterinary surgeons")
Clause 28, page 17, line 24, leave out ("that") and insert ("the")
Clause 28, page 17, line 28, leave out ("that") and insert ("the")
Clause 28, page 17, line 47, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 28, page 18, line 10, after ("commencement") insert ("of sections 19 and 20")
Clause 28, page 18, line 11, leave out ("the commencement of")
Clause 28, page 18, line 17, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")
(Nos. 9–13)
Schedule 1, page 19, line 13, leave out from ("If") to end and insert ("on the coming into force of a recognition order for any university a member of the Council is appointed by the university")
Schedule 1, page 19, line 16, leave out from first ("of") to ("shall") and insert ("that member")
Schedule 2, page 20, line 43, leave out ("1967") and insert ("1968")
Schedule 2, page 20, Line 45, leave out ("1967") and insert ("1968")
Schedule 2, Page 23, line 10, leave out ("for") and insert ("to")
(Nos. 14–19)
Schedule 3, page 24, leave out lines 1 to 4 and insert ("anything (except a laparotomy) done, otherwise than for reward, to an animal used in agriculture, as defined in the Agriculture Act 1947, by the owner of the animal or by a person engaged or employed in caring for animals so used")
Schedule 3, page 24, leave out line 7
Schedule 3, page 24, line 10, at end insert ("whether by chemical means or otherwise")
Schedule 3, page 24, leave out line 11
Schedule 3, page 24, line 15, at end insert—
("The performance, by any person of the age of seventeen undergoing instruction in animal husbandry, of any operation mentioned in the last foregoing paragraph if either of the following conditions is complied with:—

(a) the instruction is given by a person registered in the register of veterinary surgeons or the supplementary veterinary register and the operation is performed under his direct personal supervision;

(b) the instruction is given at a recognised institution and the operation is performed under the direct personal supervision of a person appointed to give instruction at the institution:

and in this paragraph 'recognised institution' means—

(i) as respects Great Britain, an institution maintained or assisted (in England and Wales) by a local education authority or (in Scotland) by an education authority or in either case an institution for the giving of further education as respects which a grant is paid by the Secretary of State or an institution recognised for the purposes of this paragraph by the Secretary of State;

(ii) as respects Northern Ireland, an agricuultural college maintained by the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland.")

Schedule 3, page 24, leave out lines 19 to 28 and insert—
("(a) of a horse, pony, ass or mule;
(b) of a bull which has reached the age of twelve months; or
(c) of a goat, ram, boar, cat or dog which has reached the age of six months.")
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I beg to move, with the leave of the House, that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 19. Before I mention briefly the main changes made to our old friend the Veterinary Surgeons Bill, I would point out that a large number of these Amendments are purely drafting ones. They are the Amendments numbered 2 to 10 and 13 on the Order Paper, including the technical Amendments to Schedule 2—Nos. 11 and 12. In addition, however, there has been one Amendment of substance to Clause 19, and a large number of Amendments to

1179
Schedule 3. I should like to say briefly a few words about the most important of these.
The Amendment to Clause 19 will enable a few surgeons specialising in this field to operate on animals for the purpose of transplanting animal organs to human beings. This is a useful provision, to enable a promising line of development inhuman medicine to continue. It will also enable members of the veterinary profession to obtain the assistance of medical specialists in the treatment of animals. This is obviously useful.
The Recess has provided time in which to enable discussions on Schedule 3 to the Bill to take place with the various interests concerned. It has therefore proved possible to make Amendments to the Schedule which bring it up to date. These are matters in which I know your Lordships have a particular interest, because we had a number of discussions upon these points when the Bill was going through its various stages in this House. I am sure, therefore, that the House will expect me to devote a little time to running through the main changes.
The first change does two things. It limits the term "anything done", which would cover any treatment and any surgical operations. This exemption was discussed with the Royal College, the British Veterinary Association and the Farmers' Unions and we agreed that it should be limited by the exclusion of laparotomy, which is a short way of saying the cutting open of the abdominal cavity. But this limitation is not intended to exclude, for instance, the puncture of the rumen for dealing with bloat. As it happens, this would be covered in any case by the provision relating to first aid in the Schedule. But other examples of operations not excluded are the minor operations listed in the Schedule, which are recognised as normally bēing carried out by stockmen and shepherds. There is also another limitation. This exemption is confined to the owners of animals used in agriculture or to people who are used to dealing with these animals. We feel that it is wrong, for instance, to allow a horticulturist or a tractor driver who never deals with these animals to be exempted. It seems right and proper that this exemption should be one allowed only to the owner of the animals or someone who is used to dealing with them.
1180
As your Lordships well know, Schedule 3 sets out certain exemptions to the prohibition on the practice of veterinary surgery by unqualified persons which is contained in Clause 19. Another change that has been made, therefore, is to delete the exemption about the destruction of an animal, since this is not veterinary surgery. With this Amendment it would be legal, for instance, for a shepherd to put an injured sheep out of its misery; without it, there is doubt about the legality of such an action. This does not, of course, open the way for anyone to destroy animals by painful methods. That is a matter dealt with by the legislation relating to cruelty to animals. Two other small Amendments are to make it quite clear that the operation of caponising may be carried out by chemical means and to delete the operation of the spaying of a pig from the list of minor operations. Another important Amendment makes provisions which enable young people of seventeen to perform certain minor operations as part of an educational course and under appropriate supervision.
I believe that there is, and will be, no disagreement on the merits of providing adequate training for stockmen. There has however been some criticism of the form of words used in this Schedule, in that it does not provide for the teachers themselves to be trained by veterinary surgeons. The Government consider that the teachers who give such training ought themselves to be trained by veterinary surgeons. But it is not possible to express this in an Act without defining the word "training"; and it makes no difference whether it is called "training" or "appropriate courses of instruction" or any other similar vague phrase, because until the words are defined the courts cannot really come to any firm conclusion. We have therefore defined the bodies that may give the instruction and insist that they should appoint instructors for this purpose, with the idea that it should be left to the Department of Education and Science to ensure, through administrative means, that as full effect as practicable can be given to the principle of the training of the instructors by veterinary surgeons. If in the course of time courses that can be identified in legislation, and certificates that can be similarly identified, are provided, then

1181
consideration can be given to amending the Schedule to tighten up these provisions.
The remaining change is to Part II of Schedule 3. This has been brought up to date by reducing the ages below which certain animals may be castrated by laymen. The Royal College and the British Veterinary Association have taken the view that for the horse, pony, ass and mule unqualified performance of this operation should not be allowed at all. This has been accepted. However, the Royal College and the B.V.A. also think that the cat and the dog should be put into this same group on the ground that a general anæthetic is used and both operations are veterinary surgery. But they accept the practical difficulties in preventing lay castration of farm animals.
The People's Dispensary for Sick Animals, on the other hand, oppose the singling out of cats and dogs from the other animals. I have pointed already to the practical difficulties for farm animals. The P.D.S.A. also run a number of clinics where these operations are carried out by laymen under veterinary supervision. Finance is also no doubt relevant here. As a charitable organisation the P.D.S.A. provide services for people who cannot afford the fees of a veterinary surgeon.
This problem was carefully considered in another place, and it was decided to leave the age for cats and dogs as it stands to-day, on the grounds that we had little information to justify alteration. It was also pointed out with some cogency that it would be easier to alter the ages downwards by an amending Order at a later stage should this be considered desirable, than to alter them upwards should a mistake have been made in putting them too low. This, like the previous point on which there is some controversy, is one that can be changed by an amending Order requiring an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament, should further investigation show that the Government—supported, I may say, by the Opposition in the other place—have made a mistake in fixing the maximum age at which cats and dogs may be castrated, at six months. The revised ages will still, of course, mean that unqualified persons must observe the Protection of Animals (Anæthetics) Acts in carrying out the operation of castration.
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My Lords, I do not think I need say more about these Amendments. I commend them to the House, and I shall be happy to listen to anything which noble Lords have to say on this Bill, which has in the past proved of such interest to this House. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Champion.)
3.2 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having explained the purport of these Amendments to your Lordships. With Amendments Nos. 1 and 14 we are of course in full agreement. The noble Lord will recall that at an earlier stage of the Bill he told your Lordships that it would not be possible to reach finality on Schedule 3 before the Bill became law. In the course of his remarks to-day, he made it clear that there was some opportunity for further consideration, but what the British Veterinary Association, the R.S.P.C.A. and the N.F.U. are also concerned about is that, while the concluding stage of a Statute has a certain air of finality about it, inevitably this is not the end of the story so far as Schedule 3 is concerned.
The noble Lord's remarks have made it clear that the Government's mind remains open on a number of these aspects, particularly on the question of defining the qualifications of instructors at institutions at which instruction is given to students in animal husbandry. On this subject the noble Lord said—and he emphasised the words—that as full effect as practicable would be given to the agreement which was reached between the R.S.P.C.A., the N.F.U., the Department of Education and Science, the Animal Health Division the B.V.A. and the Royal College on this matter; that is to say, after the initial instruction which has to be given by qualified veterinary surgeons, those who give further instruction will themselves have received some appropriate training from a member of the veterinary profession.
What is not clear is why it is not possible for the Department of Education and Science to insist and to ensure that this is so. Why is it possible for the noble Lord to qualify this requirement by saying only that it will be done so far as practicable? I am told that there

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is no shortage of veterinary surgeons to give this kind of instruction to students of animal husbandry; and there certainly will be no shortage of veterinary surgeons who can give instructions to the instructors of these students. Therefore, it seems odd that the noble Lord should have to qualify it in this way. It would give a great deal of satisfaction if he could go a little further.
The noble Lord said that as soon as the courses themselves had been defined it would be possible to introduce an order to carry this agreement into effect. I would ask him to be a little more specific about any difficulties which exist in the meantime in giving what he called administrative effect to this agreement. Would he tell the House what these difficulties are; and would he further state what steps are being taken to minimise and, ultimately, to eliminate them? The object, of course, is to ensure that animal husbandry students will later carry out the operations as to avoid pain, and in the most efficient manner possible. It seems quite obvious that, if that is to be so, those who give the instruction must themselves have received adequate instruction. This is what I am asking the noble Lord to ensure, even though I recognise the immediate drafting difficulties which have prevented his giving effect to this in the Schedule itself.
May I now turn to the other point on Amendment No. 19? As the noble Lord said, the issue here is whether the words "cat or dog" should be included. I would remind noble Lords (or inform them, if they have not already heard of this) that at the Committee stage in another place the Government's spokesman said:
"Having heard the discussion in the Committee, we would be prepared to table an Amendment on Report to remove 'cat or dog' from paragraph (c) and to insert 'cat or dog' in paragraph (a)".
—which sets out the animals that may not be castrated by unqualified persons. Of course that has not been done. The noble Lord has given us the reasons, but it must clearly be an unsatisfactory situation when this very delicate operation is being carried out by people who are not fully qualified. I hope the Government will adhere to the undertaking they have given—and I quote from what the Parliamentary Secretary said in another place:
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"After the Bill becomes law, I think that we should have a look at this again."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 735 (No. 94), col. 1791; 11/11/66.]
I would ask the noble Lord to say that, in having a look at this matter, he will bear in mind two points. The first is the great difficulty involved in getting evidence of cruelty in the carrying out of these operations, so that the mere negative that there is no evidence will not be adduced; and, secondly, that he should bear in mind that it is no argument to say that, because there are likely to be some infringements of a Statute, therefore certain provisions should not be included in that Statute. Neither of these arguments will really hold water, and I would ask him to make clear that, in considering this matter, he will bear these points in mind.
One recognises the difficulties, and one recognises also that these operations are currently carried out on cats, and have been for a long time. But I would suggest to your Lordships that there is no justification for the exclusion of dogs, whatever may be the case for cats. I would urge the noble Lord to introduce an order at the earliest possible moment to transfer dogs from paragraph (c) to paragraph (a), in order to ensure that these operations on dogs are carried out only by people fully qualified to do so—and we hope that in due course the same restriction will apply to cats.
3.10 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I should like to support everything my noble friend has said. While I am glad to see the improvements that have been made to Schedule 3, about which I must admit I was extremely unhappy, I think the inclusion in paragraph (a) not only of dogs but also of cats would be advisable, and would not be beyond practicable application. Dogs and cats may present something of a problem in areas where a veterinary surgeon may be some way away, but not beyond that of the other animals which are already covered in this paragraph.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has, I think, called attention to the fact that throughout the whole process of the Bill through this House I said that probably we should not be able to resolve the doubts and difficulties on Schedule 3

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while the Bill was going through the other place. This has been found possible. I do not know that any of us can be completely happy with Schedule 3 as it now stands, and that is why I was careful to emphasise the fact that the working of Schedule 3will be watched carefully in regard to what we are all anxious to do, which is to secure the maximum prevention of cruelty to animals by unqualified people. Of course, this Bill went through the other place and was subjected to all the democratic pressures that can be brought to bear on Committees, on Ministers, and indeed on the House as a whole, and what emerged from discussions there was this Schedule 3 as it will be after these Amendments are embodied in it.
What I will say to the noble Lord is that, so far as I personally am concerned, and for as long as I have any connection at all with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, it will be my desire to ensure that the Minister of the day in fact watches very carefully the operation of this Schedule 3. The noble Lord and I have lived with this Bill. Indeed, we are almost its father and mother. We started it in the last Parliament and have continued it in this, and I think we are a little proud of our offspring. That does not always apply to one's offspring, but it does in this case. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Somers, for his continued interest in animal welfare.
On the question of the qualification of instructors, what I said was that as full effect as is practicable can be given to the principle of the training of instructors by veterinary surgeons, and I went on to qualify those words, as the noble Lord has admitted. We know the difficulties that are visualised in some people's minds, but we cannot see that any difficulties will in fact exist about the administrative arrangements involved. We have considered the practicability of these courses, their definition, the question of a certificate of qualification, and so on. We have all these points in mind. But I am not going to pronounce on this whole matter in answer to a question raised by the noble Lord. All I can do is to give him the undertaking that I am sure he is asking me to give—namely, that we will also watch this aspect very carefully, because it is a part of the job that he
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and I, and indeed Parliament as a whole, have been engaged on for so long. My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will now be able to accept the Amendments from another place.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ARMED FORCES BILL
3.15 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER of DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Before I discuss the individual provisions of the Bill, I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that this Bill includes provisions relating to the Royal Navy as well as to the Army and the Royal Air Force. In the past Bills on naval discipline culminating in the Naval Discipline Act 1957 have come before your Lordships' House on their own and not as part of a tri-Service Bill, whereas legislation in this field affecting the Army has usually accompanied legislation on the R.A.F. Moreover, unlike the Army and Air Force Acts, the Naval Discipline Act is a permanent Statute which does not have to be renewed every five years.
In this Bill we are proposing a number of amendments to the Naval Discipline Act, as well as to the Army and Air Force Acts of 1955, which are designed to bring the Acts governing the three Services nearer together. We are also proposing to bring the Naval Enlistment Acts 1835–1884 up to date and into line so far as is possible with the law governing enlistment into the Army and the R.A.F. I stress the words "so far as is possible" because, however tidy-minded we may wish to be with regard to the three Services, I am sure your Lordships will all agree that they are different in certain respects.
This is a fairly complicated Bill and therefore I do not propose to deal with any of the broader issues affecting the Army and the Air Force and the Navy, but will take your Lordships through as much as possible of the changes that are being brought into force as a result of this Bill. Indeed, there are some more substantial changes than were made on

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the last occasion. Your Lordships will recall that until 1955 the Army and Air Force Acts were renewed annually. In 1955 Parliament decided that the Army and Air Force Acts 1955 could be renewed annually by Order in Council, subject to Affirmative Resolution, up to a maximum of five years and that then an Act of Parliament should be needed. This pattern was repeated in the Army and Air Force Act 1961.
Clause 1 of this Bill proposes that this procedure should continue for a further five years. As the Army and Air Force Acts are to be continued by Clause 1 until the end of 1967, your Lordships will not be asked this year to approve the draft of Orders in Council providing that the Army and Air Force Acts shall continue in force for a further year. In effect, the debate on the Act will provide sufficient Parliamentary control for this year, and it is in the renewal in subsequent years that we proceed by Order in Council. It may be of help to the House if I go in some depth into the purpose of the particular clauses, although I should ask your Lordships' indulgence because to some extent this will amount to a rehashing of a Committee stage, but in fact it may save the time of your Lordships if I do this on Second Reading.
Clause 2 has been called a somewhat radical proposal, but I hope your Lordships will find it none the less acceptable. It brings together in one clause provisions empowering the Defence Council to make regulations governing the terms of enlistment and certain conditions of service of regular soldiers, sailors and airmen; and I should like, if I may, to explain how these terms and conditions have been regulated up to now. Until 1955 the terms of enlistment and conditions of service in the Regular Army and Royal Air Force were laid down in some detail in Acts renewed annually by Parliament. This annual renewal meant that any change which might be desired could be proposed to Parliament within a year. When the quinquennial system of renewing the 1955 Acts was introduced it was found necessary, despite the revision in the 1955 Acts, to revise the terms of Army enlistment in the Army (Conditions of Enlistment) Act 1957. The Army and Air Force Act 1961 contains an almost complete revision of these terms
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and conditions of service. Although we saved a great deal of Parliamentary time, we missed a certain amount of flexibility as a result of this in regard to terms of enlistment. If we had not proposed Clause 2, we should have had to propose yet further, though relatively minor, amendments. If your Lordships would wish to consider these they are set out on page 3 of the Select Committee's Report.
The history of the Navy's terms of entry and conditions of service is very different. They are contained in outline—I stress, in outline—in the Naval Enlistment Acts, 1835 to 1884, though a great deal is laid down in regulations, a very great deal indeed. The powers of the Defence Council are more flexible but some types of engagement common in the Army and R.A.F. cannot under present powers be introduced into the Navy. When we came to consider how to bring the laws regulating entry into the Royal Navy up to date, and as far as possible into line with the other two Services, it became clear that if we were to attempt to apply to the Royal Navy even some of the very detailed provisions governing the Army or Air Force which are set out in Schedule 1 to the Bill we should be asking Parliament to run the risk of having to spend as much time revising these provisions as has been spent on the Army's provision over the last eleven years. In fact the risk would probably be greater, because the provisions of the 1955 Acts came at the end of a long line of Annual Acts and represented the outcome of a wholesale revision of those Acts whereas Parliament has not legislated on Naval enlistment since 1884.
We therefore thought that we should be justified in asking Parliament to empower the Defence Council to regulate the terms of enlistment and conditions of service for all three Services and with rather more freedom than the Army and R.A.F. have had up to now. In order to meet the needs of the day in a competitive market we need flexibility in laying down terms of enlistment and we need to be able to vary them at short notice. Otherwise we may well lose a good many recruiting opportunities. I would stress to your Lordships that recruitment is in many ways very much a market operation. There are times when the market is favourable. You cannot always foretell how the market will go and flexibility

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is what any good and effective employer seeks. At the same time, it is right that we should make proper provision for Parliament to oversee and have a say m what we do in this matter.
In asking for this greater freedom we have been careful not to ask for more than we need. I should emphasise that we are asking for freedom only in the field covered in Schedule 1 and described in subsection (1) of Clause 2. We are not asking for freedom in the fields covered by Clauses 4 to 11 of the Bill, nor in the Army and Air Force equivalents, which are in Part I of each of the 1955 Acts. For instance, parental consent to the enlistment of young soldiers and airmen will continue to be regulated by Statute—and I think your Lordships would wish this—as will the retention of Regulars in an emergency. These are matters over which clearly Parliament should have control.
Moreover, subsection (1) enables the Defence Council to regulate the terms of the engagements on offer but it gives no power to force anyone to accept them. When they have been accepted voluntarily, subsection (3) prevents any right given from being varied without the individual's consent, and this is obviously right and common sense. Subsection (2) gives power to repeal the provisions in Schedule 1 by regulation. The reason for this is that the timing of the repeal is important. We need to make sure that Parliament has accepted the regulations which will take the place of the provisions in Schedule 1 before the repeal takes effect. We have therefore specified in Schedule 1 the provisions to be dealt with by regulation.
Your Lordships may like to have an explanation of subsection (4) which deals with the method of making the regulations. I have explained that at present some of the field is covered by Statutes, but there are powers enabling the Defence Council to prescribe the more detailed provisions by regulations which are not made by Statutory Instrument at all and do not have to be laid before Parliament. We propose that in future all the regulations in this field shall be made by Statutory Instrument and be subject to annulment by Parliament. The difference between the categories in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (4)—I apologise to your Lordships for being so technical, but important issues of Parliamentary
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control are involved—is that if the regulations amend or repeal an Act they will be laid in draft, but that if they do not they will be made before being laid before Parliament.
Your Lordships who are familiar with the procedures in this matter will appreciate both the difference and the reason for this particular differentiation. When regulations are laid in draft either House of Parliament may resolve within forty days that the Instruments be not made, in which case no further proceedings may be taken on the drafts. This is without prejudice to the laying of new Instruments in draft. This procedure gives the maximum degree of Parliamentary control short of the Affirmative Resolution procedure. When Statutory Instruments which do not amend or repeal an Act of Parliament are made (for example, those described in subsection (4)(a)), either House may resolve that an Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Instrument be annulled—in other words, the Negative Prayer procedure. If this is done no further proceedings may be taken under the Instrument and an Order in Council will have to be made revoking the Instrument. This is without prejudice to the validity of anything done under the Instrument or to the making and laying of a new Instrument.
I hope that your Lordships will agree that in asking for greater freedom in this field we have had careful regard to Parliament's rightful interest in these matters and that we have struck the right balance between taking up Parliament's time unnecessarily and ensuring that Parliament can intervene whenever it thinks fit. I realise this is a delicate field and Parliament is rightly always sensitive to proceedings under Statutory Instruments. But I think the degree of control—and in certain respects Parliamentary control is being increased—represents the right balance; and I can assure your Lordships from my own experience when I on one occasion wished to alter a relatively simple arrangement, with regard to the engagement terms of applicants to the Women's Royal Air Force, which we thought would help recruiting, I was prevented from doing so; indeed we have had to wait a couple of years to do it, and I think this is therefore desirable.
May I turn to some of the other provisions, Clauses 3 to 11 and Clause 13? These clauses will bring the terms of

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enlistment and conditions of service for ratings and marines up to date, and in general into line with those applying to soldiers and airmen in Part I of the 1955 Acts. There is, however, nothing in these clauses to confer on Naval recruits the right to purchase their discharge in their first three months of service. We told the Select Committee on this Bill and the Committee of the other place that we intend to make regulations under this Bill giving all new recruits to Royal Navy and Royal Marines the right to purchase their discharge for £20 during the last fourteen days of their third month of service. As the grant of this right is an entirely new departure for the Navy, we think that the regulations procedure which is more flexible than legislation is a reasonable one to adopt initially. I hope that your Lordships, too, will agree.
Clause 12 proposes a new clause to take the place of Section 10 of each of the 1955 Acts. It proposes that Her Majesty's powers to retain in the Service Regular soldiers and airmen when national danger is imminent or a great emergency has arisen should be exercised by order instead of the time consuming procedure of a Proclamation; the words about informing Parliament are in line with those recently approved by Parliament in Section 5 of the Reserve Forces Act. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and others who took part in that debate will remember, we were concerned about the new arrangements for calling out the Reserves in an emergency, and in this context this is consistent with what applied on the previous occasion.
My Lords, I should like to turn now to Part III of the Bill, which is mainly concerned with disciplinary matters. Clause 15 provides a new power to take a person subject to Service law into Service custody as a preferred alternative to his being taken into custody by local authorities overseas. I am sure your Lordships will accept that we have a duty towards those we send abroad on military duties, to the civilians and dependants who accompany them, who may be subject to military law, wherever practicable to keep them out of custody in local gaols, possibly under unsuitable conditions. This is not, of course, to say that they should escape trial and punishment for offences against local law. They
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would be made available for investigations and trial in the local courts whenever this was appropriate. I will not go into this difficult question of jurisdiction, because this is confined to the question of custody.
We have, however, international agreements which entitle us to take pre-trial custody of our own personnel. Without the new power provided by this clause, such custody can only be taken lawfully with the consent of the person concerned except where it happens to be authorised under local law. This is obviously an unsatisfactory and slightly confusing situation, and Clause 15 will provide a statutory foundation which should assist our Service authorities to protect the Service personnel and at the same time help them in the responsible discharge of their obligations to the local courts. Since the person would be taken into custody in anticipation of process before the local courts, the duration of such custody depends upon the speed and activity of those courts. Control therefore presents difficulties, but the Defence Council will make regulations to ensure that they are kept fully informed of any case where the power is used and the Government would do all that is practicable to avoid a person from being held in custody for an undue time.
If I may quickly turn to Clauses 21, 32 and 17, this is the group of clauses designed to improve the disciplinary arrangements of all three Forces, to increase or introduce monetary punishments in a manner which will be recognised as consistent with developments in civil practice; and it brings the three Services closer together. In doing this, perhaps I may, with your Lordships' permission, take some clauses out of their numerical order, and, first of all, Clauses 21, 32 and 17. The punishment of a forfeiture of a sum from pay, to a maximum equivalent to fourteen days' pay, was introduced into the Army and Air Force in the 1961 Act and experience has shown it to be a most useful and satisfactory device, well designed to meet modern disciplinary needs. In many cases it has, for example, proved a valuable alternative to detention.
However, courts-martial have sometimes refrained from awarding this penalty, even where appropriate in form, because the maximum amount which could be forfeited did not seem sufficient

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in view of the gravity of the offence. In consequence, they have awarded other punishments which may in the event have had greater financial effects; for example, forfeiture of seniority or reduction in rank, and these punishments may have turned out unnecessarily damaging to a man's career. Clause 21 therefore proposes an increase in the sum awardable as a forfeiture by court-martial from 14 to 28 days' pay for Service offences, and that a court-martial should be given the same power as a civil court to award a fine for a civil offence. The summary powers of commanding officers would remain unchanged. The opportunity has also been taken in this clause to convert the punishment from that of a forfeiture of a sum from pay to what I think will be more naturally understood—namely, a "fine".
In Clause 22 we seek to introduce a new punishment in the Army and R.A.F. of dismissal from Her Majesty's service, which would be awardable only by courts-martial. This already exists for officers and warrant officers in those two Services and for all ranks in the Royal Navy, but N.C.O.s, soldiers and airmen can at present only be "discharged with ignominy" by courts-martial under the existing powers. Courts-martial may shrink from the stigma involved in awarding discharge with ignominy while agreeing that the accused should he dismissed. This has left the discharge of the accused to be dealt with by administrative means. We therefore propose that courts-martial in the Army and R.A.F. should be given the power to dismiss N.C.O.s, soldiers and airmen from Her Majesty's service.
LORD GLENDEVON: My Lords, may I just intervene to clear up something here. The wording of Clause 22(2) is:
"The punishment…shall henceforth be known as 'dismissal with disgrace'…"
It includes the word "disgrace". I was wondering what difference there is between "disgrace" and "ignominy".
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me to go on, he will find that I am coming to that. I appreciate that this is a complicated measure. It is arguable which is worse, "disgrace" or "ignominy". I think that is the point that the noble Lord is on. What we are proposing is that it will be possible to dismiss, or to dismiss with
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disgrace; in other words, there is an option. We are proposing to change the name of the more serious punishment at present known in the Army and R.A.F. as "discharge with ignominy" to that of "dismissal with disgrace" which already exists in the Royal Navy. We feel that the latter term is less obscure and will bring the advantage of uniformity. Let me say to the noble Lord, that it will also be possible merely to punish with dismissal, without disgrace. If the noble Lord is unhappy about this we shall be able to go into it more fully on the Committee stage. It will, incidentally, leave the term "discharge" to signify the termination of service by administrative means.
Clause 32 introduces the punishment of fines for naval ratings, and in general brings the three Services into line as regards fines. Clause 17 increases the maximum fine awardable to a civilian. This latter change will be helpful in enabling more minor offences by civilians to be disposed of adequately without the formality, publicity and delay and expense of a trial by court-martial.
Clause 16 enables a foreigner to be placed in command over Her Majesty's Forces. It will be appreciated that such a situation may arise in joint forces in NATO, for example, and elsewhere. It may be suggested that foreigners have already been put in command of Her Majesty's Forces in the past under prerogative powers, but it was felt desirable to put the position beyond doubt by Statute. Clause 28 will ensure that Her Majesty's present power to put officers of Commonwealth Forces in command of Her United Kingdom Forces continues unaffected. I assure your Lordships that where members of our forces are placed to serve under foreign command the present practice will be continued whereby the powers of discipline over them will be reserved to British officers
I should like now to turn to a rather difficult legal point. Clauses 25, 26 and 35 relate to the barring of a second trial by either a civil court or by proceedings under the Service Acts in respect of the same or substantially the same offence which has already been dealt with by the other body. Briefly, their purpose is to apply fully to members of all the Services

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the Common Law principle that a person may not be put in jeopardy twice for the same offence. This principle, although enshrined in the 1957 Naval Discipline Act, has not yet been fully extended to the other two Services. I think your Lordships would agree that the time has come to bring them all into line on this point.
I ought to mention that there is one point in Clause 25 which we have subjected to examination legally. This deals with the application of the doctrine of autrefois acquit and convict in relation to trial by the civil courts after previous proceedings under the Service Acts. It is likely that the Government will wish to put down an Amendment in order to deal with a rather tricky legal point, but I will not go further into it at this stage, and when the time comes I shall no doubt need to ask my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor to help in this matter. I should also remark that the expression "substantially the same offence" which appears in Clauses 25 and 35 is that which, as noble and learned Lords will recognise, is based on the words used in judicial proceedings of this House in the case of Connelly v. The Director of Public Prosecutions to describe the Common Law principle of autrefois convict.
I must apologise to your Lordships for going into such detail, but, as I indicated, this Bill is essentially a package of important changes. It is difficult to single out, as one does on other Bills, a single main purpose. It is essentially concerned with improving and bringing up to date provisions for the conduct and control of Her Majesty's Armed Forces. Following the precedent of the last debate, I have not discussed general issues relating to the Forces, but if noble Lords have points of this nature which they wish to raise—and we are grateful to certain noble Lords for giving notice of these points—my noble friend will be prepared to deal with them in his winding-up speech. Indeed, for the noble Lord who is particularly concerned on the question of dismissal as opposed to dismissal with disgrace I will see whether my noble friend can give a clearer explanation; but I can assure him that the account I gave is correct.
I hope that your Lordships will agree that the present machinery for conducting
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legislation for the Armed Forces is now pretty satisfactory. We are at the start of a new quinquennial cycle, and the Bill permits the continuance of the Acts for five years; but provides for this only for the coming year, and each subsequent year is still subject to the wishes of Parliament. There is still the annual procedure of Order. As part of the quinquennial cycle, the Bill has been exhaustively examined with enormous thoroughness by a Select Committee of another place. This arrangement stems from a recommendation of a Select Committee sitting in 1952–54 which included in its membership my noble friend Lord Rowley. He is here seeing the products of some of the stalwart work done in the Select Committee. A major development this year has been the way in which the Royal Navy has been associated: entry and discharge into the Navy and discipline within the Navy are being brought closer towards the practice in the other two Services without, I am convinced, any detriment to the distinctive naval practice which has grown up over so many years out of their great wisdom and experience in these matters. This is indeed an "Armed Forces Bill", and as such I commend it to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Shackleton)
3.47 p.m.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, I should like. to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for his very clear explanation of the Bill, which I must say takes a good deal of understanding for a mere amateur like myself. The Bill has taken quite a long time to reach this House, for I note that the Second Reading debate in the other place took place on December 13, 1965—before the Election. It was then, as the noble Lord said, very carefully considered by a Select Committee, and I should like to join with him in his tribute to the work which was done by that Committee.
It is not a controversial Bill, and on the whole we welcome it. We particularly welcome the fact that conditions of service for the Army, the Navy and the Air Force are being brought into line. Though I have always been opposed to integration for integration's sake—and indeed in the past I have felt that in

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some cases it has been overdone—I think that where it can be carried out without loss of efficiency it is a good thing. This Bill takes us a good step further in bringing into line the various rules and conditions for the three Services. When we next have a Defence debate in this House, I should like to discuss the detailed figures of economies which have been made in military and civilian personnel as a result of the reorganisations which have been carried out, particularly those in the Ministry of Defence. However, I feel that this Bill would not provide the right atmosphere for such a discussion. I intend only to select for mention one or two points which arise from the clauses of the Bill, and I shall be fairly brief. I should like to ask for certain enlargements on what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said; and we shall of course, have a chance on Committee stage to go into more detail, if that becomes necessary.
Clause 2, which is a very important one, deals with enlistment and conditions of service; that is, recruiting. I noticed that almost every speech on this Bill in another place referred to recruiting, and almost every speech that we have had in Defence debates in your Lordships' House has also done so. I am quite sure that it will be a great improvement if the Ministry of Defence can alter conditions to suit the climate of the moment, and to take advantage of the climate of the moment for getting recruits.
Nevertheless, as the noble Lord has said, Parliament has always been very jealous of its powers, and we are a little alarmed that regulations should be brought in and acted on immediately, without Parliament having the opportunity to examine them, not necessarily on the Floor of either House, but in our Libraries. I think this Bill creates a precedent in that the new proposals become regulations on the day that they are submitted to Parliament. True, I understand that Parliament can annul them, but if such a thing were to happen a number of Servicemen would already have been admitted under conditions which were then vetoed by Parliament. I will not say any more about this, but I hope to examine the matter, and I also hope that some of your Lordships will speak about it, at Committee stage.
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I now want to turn to Clause 9, which deals with the admission of young persons. I am not quite sure what the former regulations were, but we are in complete agreement that parents and guardians should have to give their consent before a young lad under 17½ can join up. Can the noble Lord tell me whether it is the case already with the Army and the R.A.F., and that this clause therefore brings the Navy into line?
LORD SHACKLETON: Yes, my Lords.
LORD THURLOW: At present permission has to be obtained for the Army and Air Force boys.
There is also the question of one of these young men changing his mind. I should like to say just a word on this point, because I think we are in difficulties. Certainly in my experience, boys in the Army and in the R.A.F. are given very expensive technical training at apprentice schools. They are first-class establishments, and I know one very well. It grew up under my command, and I know that the education provided there is more expensive than that at Eton—or even Borstal. Obviously, the Service must get a return for such public expenditure in at least a few years of service in the arm the boy has chosen. The Services must be protected from being used merely to give a technical education which, when completed, could command higher wages in industry. But, equally, a boy who is genuinely unhappy and a misfit in the career chosen by him in a fit of enthusiasm, should be allowed a chance of changing his mind. Can the Minister who is to wind up give us any yardstick, and tell us whether the regulations for the three Services are the same?
I turn now to Clause 15 which deals with comparatively junior officers putting senior officers under arrest. This clause appeals to me enormously. It conjures up in my mind an elderly General being pursued by a fierce foreign policeman dangling a pair of handcuffs, and, when almost exhausted, throwing himself in the arms of the first officer
"not below the rank of lieutenant-commander or a military or air-force officer of corresponding rank"
begging to be put under arrest. It is a sort of modern variant of hide-and-seek,

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which your Lordships might well introduce to your children and grandchildren. I think that Mr. Giles of the Daily Express should not let the opportunity slip to depict such an interesting possibility. But it is a very sensible regulation, and I appreciate the causes behind it.
I notice in Clause 25 (I am having to jump about a little, because this is related slightly) that a civil court is debarred from trying an officer or man if he has already been tried under military law. How does this apply to offences committed in foreign and Commonwealth countries? I had experience of a case where an officer on my staff was involved in a traffic accident and was fined. The other party, a local driver, who in my opinion—and I was a witness to the accident—was solely to blame, got away with it. If that officer had asked me to arrest him, which I was quite prepared to do, would he not then have been able to be tried in the civil court of the country concerned? That country was then a Colony, and it is now a Commonwealth country. I should be very grateful if that point could be answered in due course.
Clause 16 deals with command over Her Majesty's forces by foreign officers. I know that my noble and gallant friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein is rather alarmed about this clause. As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, many of us, certainly I myself, have served under a foreign General in General Eisenhower. In fact, I should think there are very few of your Lordships who did not serve either under Marshal Foch or General Eisenhower in one or other of the last two wars. So that we have all done it. But I now understand from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that this clause makes the law rather tidier, and will meet cases which could easily crop up when British troops are operating under the United Nations. But I should like to be assured that there will always be safeguards whereunder a British officer can refer to his own national superior authority, as indeed frequently happened in the last war with Commonwealth contingents who were operating under British command.
Clause 21 deals with fines instead of stoppages of pay. I was amused at the suggestion of the honourable Member for Buckinghamshire, South, who thought
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that the Chancellor of the Exchequer prompted this innovation because when a rating's pay is stopped he does not pay income tax, but when he is fined the same amount he has to pay income tax on the fine as well. My only point here is to ask the Government whether they contemplate punishing by fines any offences which at present have other forms of punishment prescribed for them.
My Lords, those are some of the points I wanted to raise. We have not had long to study this Bill; we have had only five days' notice. We shall have to look at it again in the light of what noble Lords opposite have to say.
LORD SHACKLETON: The noble Lord had two years' notice.
LORD THURLOW: It was on the Order Paper only for five days before this debate.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, his interest is such that I assumed he followed all the proceedings in another place continuously at the time.
LORD THURLOW: But we had our summer holidays, when the noble Lord and I were both fishing, and I am afraid that I forgot. But I recommend that your Lordships give this Bill a Second Reading.
4.0 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for explaining this Bill, which really consists of a series of Committee points, in such a lucid way. In fact, he was so lucid that he drew my attention to one or two points that I had missed and to which I propose to refer to-day. The Bill is made up of a large number of, to some extent, unrelated details, but there are one or two very important principles enshrined in it which I hope to bring to the notice of your Lordships.
In the first place, I am going to speak about the Royal Navy. I have a great admiration for the Royal Navy, but I have no knowledge of it. I had always understood, perhaps mistakenly, that the sailors regarded themselves as being different from the Royal Marines because the Royal Marines were sworn men and they were not. This difference has shown itself on several occasions during the history of the Royal Navy, one being that in

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the old days, I think, they did not salute but pulled their caps off. However that may be, perhaps the noble Lord who is to reply will be able to confirm that in future, at all events, there will be no distinction at all; they will be under exactly the same duties and responsibilities and the same regulations, the one as the other.
In the second place, I should like to ask the noble Lord what is an "enemy" nowadays. Your Lordships will note that in Clause 28 the word "enemy"is used. It is true that this is an amendment to the previous Act; nevertheless, it is rather interesting to know how a man in the Armed Forces can be quite sure that he is deserting to an "enemy". Take the U.2 incident, for example. In that incident, an aircraft was shot down, but not by an "enemy". In the cold war, presumably, soldiers may frequently be engaged with people who are not "enemies"; and perhaps we could have—not now, but perhaps at the Committee stage—a clear definition of what "enemy" means, and even what "desertion" means, in the circumstances of the cold war.
Then I should like to raise a question on Clause 25, which is possibly—historically, at any rate—the most important clause in this Bill. Historically, again, as a result of Cromwell and his Generals, it has always been the case that a conviction by a court-martial did not absolve an officer or a soldier from trial by a civil court. It was no excuse; and this was one of the ways, historically, in which the civil power was able to keep its hold over the military. Until to-day—or, at least, until the passing of this Bill, which may be in two or three weeks'time—it has always been regarded, so far as the Army is concerned, as a vital principle in our civil and military law that conviction, sentence and punishment by a civil court is a good plea in defence to a charge before a court-martial, but not the other way about. I think it should be stressed that if we pass this Bill we shall in fact be approving a principle which will go against everything that has been enshrined in this field in the past. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, can deny that. At any rate, he does not seem to at the moment.
There is also the question of the Court of Criminal Appeal. A few years ago
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we brought into being this new, final appeal—I think very properly, if I may say so. Both in this House and in another place we had discussions about giving the right to an officer or a soldier convicted by court-martial to come before a very high court of appeal—to all intents and purposes, the Court of Criminal Appeal in this country, headed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parker of Waddington. It would be interesting to me and perhaps to other noble Lords to know whether that innovation has been a successful one, how many appeals have been heard by the noble Lord, Lord Parker of Waddington, and his colleagues, and what has been the effect of this new system on the Army.
Going a little wider—because, after all, the Army Acts, which nowadays this Bill supersedes, were the historic vehicles on which the Houses of Parliament could debate Army matters—I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to one or two other points of a more general nature, but still of a domestic nature, affecting the conditions of service of the Forces. For the first time in, perhaps, a hundred years, the majority of the British Army will very shortly be stationed in this country. As your Lordships know, under the Cardwell system half the Army was stationed in India and half here. Now, with the gradual drawing back of the legions from overseas to this country, the thinning out of the garrisons and the dwindling of commitments, in a few years' time most of the Army will be here; and that raises considerable problems on which I think we should spend a moment or two.
In the first place, this Bill is an example of integration, in a sense, and I should like to know what other examples of integration are being carried out by the Ministry of Defence. It seems to me that most of the services of the Army, as distinct from the operational units, could very largely be integrated. The medical, legal, dental, transport, educational, signals, stores and ordnance services, as well as the chaplains and perhaps many more, could be integrated. I do not see that in many cases it matters very much, except in detail, whether in most of these jobs a man is doing them as a member of the Army, the Navy or the Air Force. I should have thought that there was great scope for integration.

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It is possible even in the operational services. I do not want to repeat a lot of old soldiers' tales, although I could, regarding the last war, about operations going from one force to another. I myself was suddenly confronted with a battery of naval guns and told to seat them, get them ready for action and fire them. I had never seen naval guns before in my life. I think that, very often, a great deal too much is made of the fact that one wears a blue tunic, a khaki tunic, a sky-blue tunic or whatever it may be. There is a great deal that can be done, even in operational matters, in the way of integration. Then there is the Defence College. We have heard that there is a new Defence College planned, to be called the Royal Defence Academy; and this, to a large extent, is to supersede the existing Navy, Army and Air Force Colleges. Perhaps we could hear a word on that, and what the situation is.
But my main and last point, and the one I want to urge upon Her Majesty's Government and the Ministers here present, is the question of accommodation. I have already mentioned that in the very near future considerable numbers of troops will be coming hack to this country. From the Mediterranean, in particular, I understand, the movement of troops has been greatly intensified, and they may be back even a year ahead of the time originally planned; so there will be a great need for permanent camps and married quarters. As we know, the position of married families is a very different one to-day from what it was in the days when most of us served in the Forces; and in fact in most units to-day there is on the strength an officer whose duty it is to look after the married families. Very soon the troops, and Air Force personnel as well, will be returning from Aden, Cyprus, Libya, Malta, Borneo and even, maybe, if the Government can persuade the Germans to cooperate, from West Germany. In all these cases, except that of Borneo, their families will accompany them. The position of Hong Kong is rather curious, because there, it seems, the flow is the other way. The Government are anxious to have Hong Kong take more troops than it has or wants. This I believe is because they hope that Hong Kong will pay for the troops it gets.
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In the past the strategic reserve in this country was concentrated largely in the Home Counties and in Southern England—sensibly enough, I suppose, when one thinks that they might be wanted quickly, and that the likely enemy was to the East. It does not say very much for our air transport; but it may be that this scheme was drawn up in the days of sea transport and has not been adjusted since. However, it need not apply any longer. When most of the Army will be at home, there is no need for all the units to be in the Home Counties or Southern England. Indeed, it would be very unfortunate if they were. In my view, it would be a very good thing, and much cheaper in other ways, if the troops stationed here were not concentrated in one area but went to their natural habitat, in the Midlands, in the North, in Scotland, in Northern Ireland or in Wales, as the case may be.
There is another aspect. Now that the Government have practically decimated the Territorial Army, there will no longer be any Army presence in many places in the country; for the drill halls are to be sold and will become bingo halls, or whatever it may be. Many of the small towns in this country, and most of the larger ones, have a drill hall on which is the symbol of the regiment and, underneath it, the legend, "Such-and-such a battalion, Territorial Army". The emblem of the regiment, both Regular and Territorial is there; and the Army presence is effected all over the country by these Territorial drill halls. But in future the drill halls will not be there and the Army presence as such will cease to be.
Therefore it is very important in the future that the Regular Army should have their permanent camps in many different parts of the country. May I say that here I have a fish to fry of my own. My own brigade, the Welsh Brigade, rarely has a battalion in this country at all. We should wish to see one battalion in Wales; and this fits in with what I have been saying. My brigade headquarters in Cwrt-y-Gollen, would make an excellent site at which to station a battalion. A permanent camp could be built in addition to the existing buildings. The fact that it is not situated in Southern England does not matter now that the Severn Bridge has been built. Cwrt-y-Gollen is within 25 minutes of Bristol, and the

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alleged isolation of South Wales, including Monmouthshire, no longer applies. I think that permanent camps like this will have a most important effect not only on the distribution of troops but on recruiting. So far as recruiting is concerned, I am glad to say the Welsh Brigade has one of the best records and my own regiment, the Welch Regiment, is, I believe, the top regiment in the Army. I must say, incidentally, that I got these facts on the Armistice Day parade last week. I cannot vouch for their accuracy, because that is not necessarily an occasion on which one could get strictly literal accuracy about one's own unit. But, in any case, I believe they are very well up in the table.
My Lords, that is all I have to say. There are a number of questions which I shall want to refer to on Committee stage of the Bill; but if the noble Lord who is to reply could give me an answer to those I have posed now I should be very much obliged. I end by wishing the Army, as always, every possible success in its ardous duties in the future.
4.15 p.m.
LORD ROWLEY: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord who has just spoken will forgive me if I do not follow him in some of the remarks he made, except to express my agreement to his reference to the possibility of further integration in the three Services. Some of us on this side of the House, like noble Lords on the other side, and those of us who were formerly in another place, strongly advocated the desirability of extending integration certainly to the administrative services of the Army, Navy and Air Force. We held those views a considerable time before the 1964 Act was passed which, as we all know, provided for further development of the Central Organisation of Defence. However, I certainly would gravely doubt whether I understood the noble Lord correctly when he, possibly by way of illustration, referred to his own experience in being asked to take charge of a battery of naval guns when I imagine he was presumably trained as an artillery officer of field artillery or garrison artillery. I may of course be mistaken, if the noble Lord was an infantry officer, but my experience would be such as to make me believe—and there are noble Lords who are sitting
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on the other side of the House who would agree with me—that it would be a very undesirable thing to place in command of an artillery unit an officer who knew nothing at all of the guns for which the unit was responsible.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as I said, I do not want to go into old soldiers' tales, but it was the case; it is true. It occurred in 1940, when all sorts of odd things were happening and my battery—it was rather a scratch battery at that—was suddenly called upon to take over Naval guns, to install them, to put them up, and fire them on the East Coast. This is what happened.
LORD ROWLEY: My Lords, in an emergency many things happen. I remember in 1918, during the retreat of the Fifth Army, that we had to bring up the cooks, the batmen and everyone else, in order to put them into the front line to stem the German advance. What we do in emergencies is perhaps different. But, as regards integration, I share to some extent the doubts of the noble Lord who spoke for the Conservative Opposition. I supported the 1964 Bill because, like others, I believed there was a strong case for central organisation of defence. But I do not believe that you can destroy the traditions of the three Services by an Act of Parliament.
We see what is happening in Canada at the present time. I was over there a few weeks ago in connection with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference. An extraordinary position was arising because it has been decided that Admirals should in future be called Generals. The noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, is not in his seat to comment, but I cannot imagine a Field Marshal being happy at being given the rank of Admiral. Throughout the history of our country our Field Marshals have carried us to victory. They have attained a prestige of which they and all of us can be proud; the same applies to the Navy. Whatever may happen in the years ahead, if and when we get greater unification to the extent of having one integrated defence force, I hope we are not going to fiddle around and start to interfere with the three operational Services, whatever we do with regard to the administrative services. That does not mean that I am old fashioned enough to say that there is no possibility of a further

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degree of integration in the operation forces of our three Services.
I like this Bill because it is an attempt, and a very good attempt, if I may say so—it was very clearly and explicitly explained to the House by my noble friend Lord Shackleton—to deal with a very difficult situation which has arisen because we are in the middle of a changing situation affecting the Armed Forces of our country. The then Deputy Secretary of State for Defence and Minister for the Army, in his speech in another place, referred to what he called the harmonised integration of the three Services. He gave as an illustration the fact that, whereas this Bill does not in any way seek to have a code of discipline for the three Services, it has taken the different Service codes and tried to relate them to one another, so as to have, so far as possible, a common basic standard of disciplinary rules. That is perhaps not going very far but I believe it is the way in which we are going to advance.
The then Minister of Defence for the Royal Navy, in his speech, described what I think he called the functional approach. He pointed out that his responsibility as regards personnel covered the three Services and therefore there was, to an extent, integration in dealing with the personnel of the three Services, although at that time he was Minister for the Navy. That seems to me the way we have to advance along this road towards the possible integration of our Armed Services.
In my view, this Bill has the merit that, although it looks a bit scrappy, it deals with a great number of problems. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, called it a package, which it is. It seems to me that we are now in a very much better position than we would have been but for the changes that took place subsequent to 1952.
My noble friend Lord Shackleton referred to the fact that I was one who sat on the Select Committee, appointed in 1952, which had eighty sittings and finally reported in 1954. What was the great advantage about the appointment of that Select Committee? The noble Viscount, Lord Monsell, who sits opposite, and I were in the House of Commons thirty years ago or more, and he will remember as well as I do that once a
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year there was always an all-night sitting to debate the Army Act 1881. I doubt very much whether anything constructive came out of the twelve or fourteen hours of deliberation. I never did think that much came out of all-night sittings, anyway. It was because many of us—Members on both sides of the House, for this was not a Party approach at all—took the view that some attempt should be made to put the law relating to the Armed Services on a sound basis that Her Majesty's Government appointed this Select Committee in 1952. As a result, the recommendation was made that there should be this quinquennial Act of Parliament and that we should seek to get away from the annual argie-bargie on Party lines which was certainly not to the advantage of those in the three Armed Services. To-day this Bill is possible because of the change that was made as a result of the acceptance of the Report of that Select Committee. Now we do not have an Army Act or an Air Force Act to renew each year and the quinquennial Act which we are discussing to-day obviously must spread itself over problems affecting the three Services.
I would say only this, my Lords. I believe it is a considerable step forward, and while there may be differences of opinion on how far we should go along the path of integrating the Armed Forces, I believe, with the noble Lord who preceded me, that a great deal more could be done, although I should certainly be very shy of any change which would arouse bitterness and disputation in the Services, such as characterised the changes which are being put through in another Commonwealth country. My Lords, I should again like to associate myself with the congratulations offered to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for his excellent introduction of the Bill. I am quite sure that he has done a great deal to clarify some of the problems with which it deals.
4.24 p.m.
LORD GLENDEVON: My Lords, may I detain your Lordships just for one minute? I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for the courtesy with which he took the point I made, when I interrupted him regarding the terms of Clause 22, but I am still a little worried. I do not think that I explained my point very clearly. What I am worried about

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is the reason for changing the word "ignominy" to "disgrace". I did not think there was very much difference between them, but a few minutes ago I took the liberty of slipping out from the Chamber to visit your Lordships' Library, and there I looked at the dictionary. I found that "ignominy" is defined as "dishonour", and "disgrace" as "downfall from a position of honour". That being so, I wondered why the trouble has been taken to change these two words. I do not feel any more strongly about it than that.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I say one thing about the choice of words? I know of a certain professional man who was called before his professional disciplinary council on a charge of infamous and disgraceful conduct. In the event, they found him guilty of infamous but not of disgraceful conduct. I did not understand the significance, but the effect was that he was not struck off. The distinction may be of that order, but my noble friend Lord Winterbottom may be able to go into it further.
4.27 p.m.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the Bill before us is, among other things, a measure of consolidation and as a result it covers a very wide field. Many questions have been asked during this debate and I cannot claim to have stored every answer in my memory. Therefore I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if from time to time there is something of a paper-chase in my attempts to answer points made. Since the noble Lord, Lord Glendevon, has raised the point about "ignominy" or "disgrace". I might give him an immediate answer before I come to other points.
Basically, the terms "ignominy" and "disgrace" are, in terms of the present Bill, interchangeable. In some Forces people are discharged with "ignominy". In the Navy men are discharged with disgrace. The term "disgrace" is something which we all understand, but not everyone understands exactly what ignominy means, or the force of it. I suppose that slipping on a banana skin is ignominious but not disgraceful. For this reason, "disgrace" was selected to apply to the three Services. There is also a legal point behind it. Dismissal with disgrace means the same as discharged with ignominy, but we want to use the
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same term in all three Services. We are, however, introducing a new power for courts-martial to dismiss N.C.O.s, soldiers and airmen in conjunction with a period of detention or imprisonment. What happened in many cases in the past was that when one of these other ranks was court-martialled and imprisoned he was subsequently discharged administratively from the Services. Now, however, in addition to the punishment of imprisonment we wish also to discharge him formally. There is a difference. That is the reason for the changes in the Bill.
Before launching into answers to the interesting points raised by noble Lords in the course of the debate, I should like to make a small debating point—wearing now my naval cap. It may be thought that since Part II, Clauses 2 to 14, deals almost exclusively with the Royal Navy, the Royal Navy is catching up with the other Armed Forces. I maintain that whereas it has been felt by both Houses that we have to watch the Army and the Air Force year by year, the Navy has been trusted to get on with its affairs without interference since 1884, and now it is necessary for the other two Services to catch up with the Navy. That is a partisan point, which I hope will not be taken too seriously.
May I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, for giving me advance notice of the points he was going to raise? I should like to answer in broad outline at this stage. Perhaps we can go into the various points in Committee stage, when we get down to the details of this complicated and, I find, interesting measure. Clause 2 we must debate in detail. My noble friend has indicated its importance in terms of the control by Parliament of the actions of the Executive, and we must go into this with some care.
The second point raised by the noble Lord was the right of young men, who had decided on a Service career but after a comparatively short time felt that it was not for them, to leave the Services. The Army and Air Force have made arrangements for this in the past by allowing a man to buy himself out for £20 during the last 14 days of his third month of service. Until now the Royal Navy has not followed this procedure, but it is the intention of the Royal Navy to fall in line with the Army and the Air

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Force. The information about this can be found an page 21, paragraph 5, of the Select Committee's Report. But it is no good looking in the Bill for this intention. What will happen is that the Royal Navy will use powers conferred upon it by this Bill to bring its arrangements into line by administrative action, as was stated in another place. Any young man who finds that the Navy is not for him can get out towards the end of his third month of service.
Clause 15 (and the happy picture of a junior officer placing his senior officer under arrest!) is designed for the protection of senior officers. As the military situation becomes curiouser and curiouser, it is necessary to pass rather curious regulations. There has been the case, which your Lordships may have noticed, of a member of our Armed Forces in Cyprus being involved in some illegal transaction with the Turkish element and spending a substantial time in a Cypriot gaol—an experience which I do not believe he particularly enjoyed. This is something which can happen to almost anyone, and this clause is designed to protect British Servicemen serving abroad who come into conflict with the local civil power. While a man is waiting trial, in whatever circumstances, we wish him to be under the control of his own commanding officer. And if we have to do something rather peculiar in arranging for a junior officer to put a senior officer under open arrest, this is something that we have to do for the sake of the senior officer.
Clause 25 binds only civil courts within the jurisdiction of Parliament. If there is a question of a charge before a foreign court or before a Service court-martial abroad, the matter will be decided by our status of forces agreement with the country concerned, if there is one, and there nearly always is. Most of such agreements contain provisions for avoiding double trials. We live in an odd world, and this is one way of getting round its problems.
Then comes the interesting point raised by the noble Lord on the problems that arise when British officers and other ranks serve under foreign commanders. My noble friend mentioned one case, but there is a series of interesting cases. There is the instance of the mixed-
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manned ship, the "Claude V. Ricketts", on which nationals of five nations were serving under an American commanding officer and commanding Admiral. The drill there was that every national group had its own senior officer and minor breaches of discipline were dealt with by him, any major breaches resulting in the man concerned being sent back to his base in the home country and replaced by someone else. There is the other and more important example of the Second Tactical Air Force serving under a Belgian commanding officer, who was responsible for technical deployment of the Air Force while discipline remained a purely British responsibility. This problem is one which we are facing now to an increasing degree and we hope that this Bill makes suitable arrangements for the situations as they arise.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves that point, may I ask whether an officer serving under a foreign officer is entitled to refer to his own national senior officer, wherever he may be? I do not think it would occur in the case of the "Claude V. Ricketts", but if the senior British officer had a complete disagreement with the captain would he have any right of appeal to their Lordships of the Admiralty?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this is a complex question and I should be grateful if we could consider that at a later date. In point of fact this question has not arisen, but I agree that it might arise and a definition from these Benches might be helpful. Can we leave it at that? I am interested in this point, too, and should like to know the answer.
The final point raised by the noble Lord was whether a new series of offences are going to be punished by fines rather than by any other form of punishment. I think it is true to say that fines will not be used as a new form of punishment. They will appear in what I may call the descending scale of punishments available under the Army Act. What has been happening in the past is that courts-martial have been faced with serious charges for which until now they have been able to punish the offender only with the forfeiture of 14 days' pay, and in many cases it was the court's opinion that this was not an adequate punishment. As a result, instead of men being fined

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they have been punished by detention or imprisonment or loss of seniority. The point was made by my noble friend in his opening speech that if courts-martial can inflict heavier punishments by fine, then we can avoid a number of cases where men have been punished by detention or imprisonment, when of course we lose their services, or where men have suffered supplementary and unforeseeable penalties because of loss of seniority. With the introduction of Clause 21 more men will be fined in future for offences for which in the past they suffered detention. I hope I have answered all the points which the noble Lord raised.
I should now like to turn to the interesting points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore—and again may I thank him for his courtesy in giving advance notice? First of all, he asked how the Royal Marines were to be treated under the Bill. If my recollection is right, Royal Marines were originally soldiers. I shudder to say this in your Lordships' House, but I understand they were carried on board Her Majesty's ships and were to protect the officers from outraged conscripted men. They were originally soldiers but are now a magnificent part of the Royal Navy. They have always been treated under the same terms as those of the Army Act, and Schedule 3, which amends Part I of Schedule 7 to the Army Act 1955, lays down how they will be treated in the future when this Bill comes into force. In fact, Schedule 3 lays down an almost exactly parallel arrangement of disciplinary measures between the Royal Marines and the Army.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but the question I asked was not about the Royal Marines. I asked about the sailors, members of the Royal Navy, and whether they would in future be treated in the same way as the Royal Marines. I knew about the Royal Marines, but I was not sure about the sailors of the Royal Navy.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: I should be grateful if this point could be raised at a later stage. The Bill deals with the Royal Marines as a separate entity. Perhaps I might give the noble Lord an answer at a later date.
The next point raised by the noble Lord concerned Clause 28 of the Bill, which contains definitions of "desertion"
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and "enemy". Again, in this rather odd world in which we live, it is rather difficult to decide who is your enemy. The situation in Cyprus provides a classical situation. You find a situation in Cyprus where Her Majesty's forces, either British or Canadian, are conducting a police operation. The Canadian forces may be involved in a clash with some Turkish paramilitary forces, and the British are not. Does this automatically make the Turkish populace of Cyprus enemies of Her Majesty's British forces? This is again a very complicated subject, and we hope by this clause to avoid any confusions that might arise from situations such as this.
The next point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, was about the effectiveness of the Appeal Court from court-martial proceedings, which I believe started operations in 1952. The figures I have here are that since 1952 there have been 330 appeals from courts-martial to the Court of Appeal, and of those 330 appeals, 16 were allowed. That is the measure of importance of that particular decision.
I was also asked about integration. This is an important and interesting subject, but it is also a very wide one. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I do not go into it at great length. I could make a complete speech on this subject, because, of course, integration has been the objective of Governments of both Parties since the creation of the Ministry of Defence. The creation of the Ministry of Defence by a Conservative Administration was the first step towards obtaining economies that arise from integration. But this is a long and difficult operation, as my noble friend has pointed out. Deep loyalties are concerned, and the work is not easy. It is not easy, for instance, to give one simple reason, in that in the past the various Services have called the same article by different names. One of the first and important jobs to do in getting economies from integration is to find out what one is talking about. A common vocabulary for the three Services is almost the first step towards achieving integration.
The work has, however, started. In the last Defence Review the first steps were announced: unification of defence plans; the taking over by the R.A.F.

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of responsibility for accommodation stores; responsibility of the Navy for victualling all three Services; and the responsibility of the Army for providing the transport for the three Services. Something has started in three important fields. And this is not the end of the road. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, mentioned a series of functions which to any outsider and any rational human being would seem to be more suitable for common treatment than for single-Service treatment. I think this is a view shared by the Ministry of Defence. But we are the people who have to do the job, and we have to carry through this complicated operation.
Medicine is one thing that strikes all of us as something capable of integration. Some careful studies have been done in this field, and action is, I think, about to be taken. The review of the Services' long-term hospital requirements is now almost completed. This has been a long and exhaustive study. As a result, a substantial reduction in the number of beds to be retained in the remaining Service hospitals is planned. Detailed plans are now being prepared for the modernisation on a reduced scale of the naval hospitals at Plymouth and Haslar, and the military hospitals at Colchester, Millbank and Woolwich, as well as for the complete reprovision of the old military hospitals at Tidworth and Cattery. The R.A.F. hospitals at Halton and Ely will be progressively modernised, and those at Cosford and Nocton Hall will in due course be reprovided as part of a joint hospital campus with the National Health Service. In all cases our plans have been fully discussed with the Ministry of Health and are designed to ensure the greatest practicable measure of co-operation between ourselves and Regional Hospital Boards. This is a welcome development. These hospitals are not purely naval hospitals, but are also serving the civilian community surrounding the particular areas concerned.
The noble Lord then raised another interesting question, that of tertiary education for Regular officers. This is, I think, one of the most interesting developments that I have met during my brief period in the Ministry of Defence. The position is that an independent inquiry into tertiary education for Regular officers has now
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been completed. This inquiry was carried out by Professor Michael Howard, of London University, and Mr. Cyril English, Senior Chief Inspector of Schools, and the Ministry of Defence are grateful for the thorough and confident way in which they have carried out their study. The results of this study are now being examined by the Defence Council, and I expect that it will not be long before a statement on the decisions of the Council, based on this report, will be made to your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord then turned to what is one of the great problems facing us—namely, the accommodation to be provided for troops and their families being brought back to this country. He used a phrase which I thought had a rather unhappy ring. He talked about "the return of the unhappy legions". I do not think we can be compared with the City of Rome at a late stage of degeneration. The legions are not returning home because the centres are collapsing.
LORD THURLOW: Are they not?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: It is for economic and strategic reasons that some of these troops are returning. The problem of housing these men is one that we have to face. There is a substantial housing shortage, and the Ministry are well aware of the size of this problem. It has been tackled with energy, and in particular the resources of industrialised building are being employed, and will be employed to a greater degree, to provide houses for these men and their families when they return to this country.
I should like to make some mild complaint against the application of the word "decimation" to the Territorial Army. We had an interesting debate in this House when I thought we managed to convince noble Lords opposite, and indeed noble Lords on this side of the House, that these Reserve Forces were not being decimated but re-equipped and redesigned to perform their function in a world war. The old form of war has disappeared for ever.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I say that the noble Lord did not convince me?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: I regret that fact. Lastly, the noble Lord made a plea that, if and when the Welsh Brigade

1217
came back to this country, accommodation might be found for them in their native land—I do not know whether I can call Wales the native land ! The noble Lord also made what was a very important point in terms of mobility, when he pointed out that the Severn Bridge brought Wales, from being a remote peninsular, directly in contact with the mainland, if I may call it so. This, I am certain, will be noted by my noble friend who is responsible for these problems, and I think the suggestion is one that merits careful consideration.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves my points, I do not expect an answer to my question on Clause 25 because I did not give him notice of it (in fact it was the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who drew my attention to it); but I think the change of the jurisdiction of civil courts over a soldier ought to be explained more fully than we have had it explained to-day.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I think the whole House is agreed—and certainly my noble friend and I are agreed—thatClause 25, as is Clause 2, is one of the most important and controversial clauses in the Bill. As my noble friend suggested, we hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor may intervene at this point to clarify the clause for the benefit of the House.
My noble friend Lord Rowley—and here I support him completely—issued a warning against the too-rapid integration and disregard of deep-seated, deep-rooted loyalties of the Services in which various members of the Armed Forces served. I think that Canada has given us an interesting laboratory experiment which we should study with benefit. Lastly, I understand very well the satisfaction that my noble friend must feel when he sees at long last the results of the marathon sittings of 1952 to 1954, when some of the first steps to get a common policy to the three Services were hammered out, which led, I presume, to the creation of a Ministry of Defence—a process of integration and a process towards achieving economies which successful integration movements within the three Services can bring about.
My Lords, this is a complex Bill, which covers a wide field. There are many points in it which we have not as yet
1218
had an opportunity of discussing but which I presume we shall discuss on Committee stage. I am grateful for the constructive approach of noble Lords towards our proposals which have been made during the course of this stage of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
4.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Kennet.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD STRANG in the Chair]
Clause 1:
Rate support grants
1.—
(4) The aggregate amount of the rate support grants for any year shall be divided by the Minister into three parts (to be known respectively as "the needs element", "the resources element" and "the domestic element") which shall be of such amounts respectively as may be prescribed; and the provisions of Schedule 1 to this Act shall, subject to sections 3 and 4 of this Act, have effect with respect to the determination of the amounts payable to any local authority in respect of those elements for any year and with respect to the other matters there mentioned.
4.56 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR moved to add to subsection (4):
"Provided that if the aggregate grants receivable by any local authority in respect of the year 1967–68 are as a result of this Act liable to be reduced below the aggregate grants receivable by that authority in respect of the year 1966–67, by an amount exceeding the product of a rate of three pence in the pound, such reduction shall not take effect wholly in 1967–68 but shall be evenly spread over that and the three following years."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to temper the cold wind that otherwise is likely to blow very severely on certain authorities who may be substantial losers by the new system of grants embodied in the Bill. The Amendment in no way attacks that new system. Indeed, we all think it can be

1219
so operated as to be an improvement on the old.
Briefly, what the Amendment says is that if the prospective loss of grant to a local authority in receipt of grant exceeds a 3d. rate, then that loss shall be spread over four years evenly instead of falling immediately and in full on the first year. This change would cost the Exchequer nothing, because it would be an adjustment solely within the field of local authority finance. Local authorities which would otherwise be gainers under the Bill would gain a little less, but those authorities who would be substantial losers would have a tapering arrangement applied so that the loss would be spread out over a number of years.
I think it is almost universally accepted that a sharp and artificial increase in rates in any part of the country arising from new legislation is a bad thing. You may have to hurt people, but you should not bump and jar them unnecessarily. Of course, it is worse when the public have been led to expect that domestic rates on houses and flats are likely to be reduced under the Bill. I quite appreciate that it is not the Government's intention to guarantee everybody a reduction in rates, but nevertheless a good deal has been made of the point that the domestic ratepayer is to be helped, and yet I am afraid that in certain areas the domestic ratepayer will find that the result of the Bill is not that he is going to pay less, but that he is going to pay a good deal more by reason of loss of Government grant.
On the Second Reading of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, said:
"My right honourable friend will prescribe, for each year, an amount by which the poundage of the general rate levied by each authority is to be reduced in respect of dwelling houses…it is expected to be 5d. in the first year…".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 277 (No. 60), col. 459; 31/10/66.]
Despite that, the 5d. may well be swallowed up and drowned in various areas through substantial loss of grant which this Bill will in other respects effect.
My Amendment is designed to raise the principle of transitional arrangements. It is not offered to the Committee as a perfect piece of drafting, and if the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, can pick holes in it
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nobody will be less surprised than I. The noble Lord in his official position will probably agree with me that it will require a far more lengthy and detailed Amendment, such as only a Government could be responsible for drafting, if transitional arrangements are to be introduced into this Bill. But if the Government will accept the principle of a transitional arrangement, and bring forward their own more precise Amendment on Report, I certainly would be prepared to withdraw this one.
Noble Lords may recollect that I was responsible in another place for what became the Local Government Act 1958. That was the last occasion when there was a substantial change in the grant system. My 1958 Act provided for tapering arrangements over several years on a sliding scale to soften the blow to losing authorities. That is to be found in Section 15 of the 1958 Act, and when I say that that section runs to sixty lines noble Lords will understand why I did not on this occasion attempt to repeat anything like that, but simply sought to raise the general principle of transitional adjustments in a reasonably short Amendment. I know that in the outcome Section 15 of the 1958 Act gave rise to some difficulties in application, and I would not press for a precise re-enactment of that. That section, for example, protected all receiving authorities against any loss of grant in the first year. My Amendment does not go so far. It only bites if there is a loss of over 3d. in the pound, and it would give rise to correspondingly fewer calculations.
We are seeking here simply to secure that the working of the Bill makes practical sense. There is no great question of principle involved as to whether or not there should be transitional arrangements, but I suggest that it is the more necessary for your Lordships' House to take a close interest in the working of the Bill in this respect, in that this Government have not supplied Parliament with figures showing the probable effects of the Bill on each separate authority. The Government in another place were pressed to do that but were not willing to do so. That contrasts with the previous occasion in 1958 when I had a White Paper laid before Parliament which showed estimates of the effects of the Bill on each authority in receipt of grant.

1221
I know that not all those forecasts could have been absolutely right, but they did give Parliament a broad idea how the Act was going to affect each local authority. That is what is missing on this occasion.
The Government could help us a great deal even at this late stage if they would give us more information. I asked for further information in my speech on the Second Reading a fortnight ago, but my request was not complied with during the course of that debate. For example, what is the greatest loss of grant in terms of the product of a penny rate that any county or county borough is likely to suffer next year, compared with this year, as a result of the new grant arrangements embodied in the Bill? I cannot help thinking that the Government must have calculated this, and I would ask that Parliament should be given this information.
As I have said, the Government know that we are in no way hostile to the principle in the new grant clauses of this Bill. In pressing the need for transitional adjustments to be included in the Bill we are seeking to improve further a Bill which, in principle, almost everybody accepts. That is why I hope that the Government will, in principle, accept the case that I am making out for the necessity for transitional arrangements. It appears to me that otherwise a great deal of hurt will be done in some areas, a great feeling of unfairness will be created, and all through the Government having departed from the precedent which has hitherto been set when Parliament has been reorganising the local government grant system.
The Government said in another place that the reason the Bill did not contain any transitional arrangements was that such arrangements are not easy to make. It is not always easy to do justice, we know, but nevertheless we all accept that justice ought to be done. I am making a plea for justice. I am simply asking that the principle should be accepted. If the Government will undertake to insert some arrangements of their own in this Bill for transitional adjustments, I shall be willing to withdraw my Amendment, but otherwise I shall be very reluctant to do so.
5.6 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD KENNET): The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, raised the question why the Government had not made available an exemplification, as it is called in the jargon of the business; that is, a table which would show the probable gain or loss to different local authorities, as he himself made one available before the 1958 Act. The reason for this is that the new system of London government has been operating for so short a time that the figures for London and for the counties which were amputated to make Greater London are not available. We have no valid figures for that area and we do not know quite how it will work there.
That being so, the presence of so many guesswork figures in any exemplification we might make now would distort the whole exercise. As a matter of fact, we have drawn up an exemplification and we have shown it in confidence to local authority circles concerned—circles which, because of their professional association with this work, are well able to allow for the fact that it is perforce utterly unreliable—but we do not feel we should be justified in laying these figures before Parliament because they would reach a wide general circle that would perhaps be less capable of allowing for their inbuilt unreliability, and to do so would cause greater confusion and alarm, and possibly raise more false hopes.
To turn to the Amendment, the noble Lord said it was not drafted in the final form he would wish and asked that the Government would make an Amendment of their own to the same effect. I do not want to pick holes in the Amendment as it is drafted, but I would point out to the Committee that in drafting such an Amendment it would be difficult to avoid allowing for events which ought not to be allowed for in a transitional scheme. Suppose in the first year a large industrial works opened in a new area which this year qualifies for rate deficiency grant; this will increase the amount of rateable value per head of the population so that the local authority will be entitled to a smaller measure (or

1223
perhaps none at all) of the resources element. And quite rightly so, because they will have the additional rate resources provided by the new works. It would be quite wrong if, in addition, they received compensation for the reduction in grant.
Again, some authorities may have received large amounts of specific grant in 1966–67 in respect of once-for-all expenditure—say, major road works. If they do not have to meet similar expenditure the next year it would be quite wrong to compensate them for the reduction in grant. I do not say it would be impossible but it would be extremely difficult. The Government are not convinced that it would be worth while for the following reason.
The noble Lord has told us, from his own experience as Minister of Housing and Local Government, how he introduced a transitional scheme. I do not know whether he remembers, but within the Ministry the memory of the traumatic results of that scheme is still vivid. The transitional scheme was to cushion the effects of the change in the system, and another transitional scheme had to be introduced to cushion the effects of the first transitional scheme. For that reason the Government are fighting a little shy of transitional schemes, and it is notable that none of the local authority associations has suggested that we should have one this time. I must therefore advise the House that the Government do not consider a transitional scheme to be necessary, and that in particular the Amendment as it is drafted would be difficult to apply; but that is a point which I have already covered. I therefore advise the Committee not to make the Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: This explanation from the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, is the most extraordinary I have heard in this House. He is in effect saying that Parliament are such a lot of "suckers" that they cannot be given figures which may be subject to some inaccuracies, but local authorities are such wise people that inaccurate figures may be put before them because they will not believe them. Anybody who has seen some of the figures produced by Her Majesty's Government—not always the Government opposite—knows
1224
how inaccurate Government figures are. I assure the noble Lord that we are not such "suckers"; he can produce these figures and we will make due allowance.
LORD KENNET: Parliament includes no "suckers", but we cannot guarantee that among the readers of Hansard there will not be some "suckers".
LORD MARGADALE: There is considerable feeling among those counties who think they are hardly done by, although we have not got the figures before us. The noble Lord has said it is not impossible to draft an Amendment to follow that of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor. I hope he will consider now trying a little harder to do so.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, would be prepared to think again about this matter. I have listened to what he said. Part of his reason for not taking any action was that in his view the present Government would not be able to make a better job of it than the Conservative Government did. It seemed to me a somewhat curious argument to hear from the other side, but of course one must respect it. He said it would be difficult. Yes, I agree it would be difficult, but justice is involved here, and I feel very strongly that the difficulties should be faced and an attempt should be made. He said that the local authority associations had not asked for transitional arrangements. I am not in the confidence of the two principal local authority associations, but I can guess one reason why they would not have asked, and that is that the majority of their members are gaining authorities who clearly would not want a transitional scheme; it is a minority of authorities who are going to lose who do want it badly. For that reason I think that your Lordships' House should not take too seriously the fact that, by a majority, the principal local authority associations have not asked for a change.
I do not feel inclined to let this go. I wonder whether the noble Lord would be prepared to give some further consideration to the matter between now and Report stage. I am not asking that the plan in my Amendment should be adopted: mine is relatively crude; I think something better could be done.

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But I do feel that we should make a serious effort in your Lordships' House to secure a greater degree of justice for the losing authorities, and it is the Government who could help us.
LORD KENNET: I do not claim that everything that the noble Lord did when he was Minister of Housing was always done in the worst possible way. There are situations which of their nature do defeat attempts to alleviate marginal difficulties of this sort. I will, of course, undertake, as always, to look at the matter again and inform my right honourable friend, but without holding out any specific hopes of being able to meet the noble Lord.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: In view of that assurance, and emphasising that we may have to come back to the matter on Report if the Government are not able to help us, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause I agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:
Reduction of grants in case of default
4.
(2) The appropriate Minister may make regulations for prescribing standards and general requirements in relation to any function of a local authority; and in determining for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section whether there has been such a failure as is there mentioned, regard shall be had to any such regulations and any other standards or requirements imposed by or under any enactment.
LORD ROYLE LORD ROYLE moved, in subsection (2), after "authority" to insert "which they are required by statute to perform". The noble Lord said: This Amendment would have been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ilford, had he been able to be present to-day, but he found he could not be present and therefore I beg to move the Amendment. I confess straight away that I move this Amendment at the request of the Association of Municipal Corporations. The noble Lord, Lord Ilford, as your Lordships know, is President of that organisation, and I happen to be one of its Vice-Presidents. I propose to put the point as briefly and concisely as I can,
1226
but I think it is necessary to go back to subsection (1), which says in effect that if a local authority fail to achieve reasonable standards in the discharge of any of their functions the Minister may make a reduction in the rates support grant after having made a report to Parliament.
We come to the subsection the Amendment is concerned with, subsection (2):
"The appropriate Minister may make regulations for prescribing standards and general requirements in relation to any function of a local authority; and in determining for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section whether there has been such a failure as is there mentioned, regard shall be had to any such regulations and any other standards or requirements imposed by or under any enactment."
I seek to insert after the word "authority" "which they are required by statute to perform". I seek to insert those words on the grounds that there may be no Parliamentary control, or very little Parliamentary control, as against the words of an Act of Parliament, over such regulations for prescribing the standards and requirements.
The position under the present Bill is altogether different from that under Lord Brooke of Cumnor's Act of 1958. The scope of relevant expenditure is extended to cover expenditure on the whole range of local government services excepting housing, which of course has its own subsidisation system separately, and also exempting trading services. This change brings within the functions a whole range which have not heretofore been subject to detailed Government control. Previously local authorities have been treated as responsible bodies. They consider at the moment that this particular subsection takes away a great deal of the feeling that they are responsible bodies. This subsection (2) empowers the Minister to prescribe standards and general requirements in relation to any function (and I underline the word "any"); housing, trading services, even the functions of Local Acts of Parliament—the lot. I suggest to your Lordships and to my noble friend Lord Kennet that this is an invasion of local authority independence which is quite unjustified. It is rather a strange way of increasing local authority independence, as we have previously envisaged it in both Houses, and I would ask my noble friend what extra money is being offered

1227
by the Government to justify these extra controls.
The White Paper, and the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill, indicate that there will be something like £30 million extra in the first year, approximately £60 million in the second, and something like £90 million in the third. But as long ago as 1963–64 the total was £1,020 million, so it is quite a small increase, remembering what has happened in the meantime to costs and other exigencies, in relation to the demand by the Government for such unlimited efforts.
I want to be brief and not to go into great detail, because I am sure that my noble friend knows just what I mean and where I am going. Accordingly, I want to say that the object of the Amendment is to confine the regulation-making powers within more reasonable limits, to those functions where, for their performance, Parliament has thought it necessary and proper for the local authorities to be under a statutory duty. I hope I have made the situation clear, while trying to be as brief as I possibly can. I am certain that my noble friend on this occasion will be able to reply to what I have said without the use of four or five letter words. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 9, after ("authority") insert ("which they are required by statute to perform").—(Lord Royle.)
LORD BURDEN: I think the first point in regard to the Amendment which my noble friend has moved, is to recognise that local authorities are responsible bodies, competent to discharge their own functions and to exercise their rights and responsibilities in their own right. Under the Local Government Act 1958 the general grant was paid to the relevant authority for revelant services. Most of these had previously been grant-aided, sometimes involving statutory responsibility for Ministers to secure a nationwide provision of the service in question. One could mention, for example, the health services and education. They are national services in which the local authorities play a great part in administering the day-to-day work.
Bearing that in mind, obviously little objection could be taken to the central Government's laying down broad prin-
1228
ciples in circulars in relation to those national services. However, in the clause under consideration this Bill introduces a new principle, whereby the Government take power, whether the service in question is grant-aided or under statutory duty, to issue circulars regulating, or instructing the local authority how to carry out, the duties imposed upon them. One must remember that many local authorities have managed to promote Local Acts of Parliament enabling them to perform certain services for their citizens, and in that way to perform a useful function in experimenting in regard to local authority activities. Again, quite a number of Acts of Parliament allow local authorities to carry out certain work. I submit to your Lordships that it is an entirely new principle for the central Government to claim the right to issue instructions as to how responsible bodies, such as, for example, the Greater London Council, should carry out duties not specifically imposed upon them, but taken either by Local Act or by permissive legislation.
I recall the time, as I am sure does my noble friend Lord Royle, when, in a transitional period, local authorities administered the Poor Law to which the central Government made not one penny contribution. But at the committee meetings of the council dealing with Poor Law matters there were inspectors sitting in watching what was done, and no doubt reporting whether anybody stepped over the line in regard to Poor Law matters. Are we now to have inspectors going round to local authorities to see that they carry out their responsibilities under private Acts or permissive Acts to the satisfaction of the central authority? I would submit to your Lordships that, just as you cannot make a person good by Act of Parliament, so you cannot make a local authority good by a constant stream of circulars dealing with this and other matters. I beg of the Ministry not to impose these leading strings, not to put these restrictive measures on local authorities who have done their work so well in the past, but to continue the old practice of dealing with the services which are nation-wide in their character and attract grant-aid in a substantial way. I beg to support the Amendment.
5.28 p.m.
LORD PARGITER: I should like to say that this Amendment, at any rate,

1229
has the support of the County Councils' Association. I have no need to go over the general principles that have been enunciated, but there is one point that I should like to mention which has not been mentioned; namely, the stultifying effect that regulations may possibly have. This, I think, is most important. Once regulations have been made (here it is not a question of prescribing minimum standards), the impression is, of course, that the aim is to keep the cockfighters up to the scratch. But they might have precisely the opposite effect because if the Minister prescribes standards by regulation—and the Bill says "standards", not "reasonable standards" or "minimum standards"—it would be open to local government, certainly to any ratepayer, to lodge an objection at audit if the standards were exceeded in respect of a service, and the auditor would have to take note of the objection. I do not say that it would happen, but it could happen.
I should have thought it was highly important that we should not have prescribed regulations which have a stultifying effect, and the effect of bringing all services to a particular level. After all, what we want in local government is innovation in regard to the services provided. We want improvements in services from time to time. Often it is improvements carried out by one or two authorities which lead to a general alteration of the standard of the service, and possibly at times equally in regard to economy.
Once we get down to this basis of regulation for all services, it can hardly be argued that the amount of the rate support grant is a justification for this, having regard to the relatively small amount that this provides out of the total. I feel that the Government should look at this matter again. I do not think that it is the intention of the Government to make regulations which will have a stultifying effect, but they will in fact do so because authorities will be encouraged to work to a particular regulation in providing a particular standard and will be in considerable danger if they exceed it. I hope that this aspect will not be lost sight of, and that we may expect to see some changes made in the form of the clause as it now stands.
5.31 p.m.
LORD KENNET: Let me say at once that there is no question of "leading strings" or armies of inspectors listening in to local affairs and putting people right. I would remind the Committee that what we are discussing is not a given body of regulations which are all waiting in draft to be passed in a Schedule by your Lordships. We are discussing only whether or not we should give the Minister power to make regulations. I can assure the Committee that if he is given the power he will use it sparingly. I would remind the Committee also that the power will be to make regulations subject to annulment in either House of Parliament. And I know that both Houses are quick to seek to annul an Order when armies of inspectors go out into the country with leading strings. All the same, when I first saw this Amendment I thought that it was a jolly good one.
LORD ROYLE: It still is.
LORD KENNET: It seemed to me that it would be absurd to empower a Minister to make regulations about the standard of a service which a local authority did not even have to provide if it did not want to do so. But when I went further into the matter, I found that there were good reasons for playing it this way rather than limiting the power to services which had to be provided by Statute. For example, under Section 26 of the National Health Service Act1946, local authorities are required to make arrangements for vaccination against smallpox and immunisation against diphtheria. They are statutorily bound in that respect. So this would be within the regulation-making power, as the noble Lord behind proposes to amend it. But they are also empowered, though not bound, to make similar arrangements for vaccination or immunisation against other diseases, for instance, measles or polio. This would be outside the Minister's regulation-making power if the Committee were to amend the Bill as is proposed.
My right honourable friend the Minister of Health has no immediate proposals for making regulations in either of these respects, but if for some reason they became necessary I think it would be odd if standards in respect of one disease could be controlled though not in respect of another. Again, under Section 28

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of the same Act local authorities are empowered, but not required, to make arrangements for the prevention of illness, and for the care and after-care of persons suffering from illness, including mental illness, or mental defectiveness. Here again, no regulations are in prospect, but if the need to regulate standards arose it would be odd if so large and important a field of the local health services were shut out from the control of central Government, as they would be by this Amendment.
It seems to me that we now have to legislate for a situation where it is almost an historical accident whether a particular function is required of local authorities or merely permitted. I am sure it would be wrong to make one kind of subject potentially regulatable and not the other. Surely, in practice if these controls are sensibly applied, by which I mean applied as little as possible, and if this system is administered with a decent sensitivity, as I think it will be, I should have thought that local authorities might be quite glad to have standards given to them on what the central Government think right about polio as well as about diphtheria. In view of what I have said, I do not know whether my friend would feel able to withdraw the Amendment. On the face of it it is a good one, but when one looks into it it would appear to give rise to rather absurd anomalies.
LORD PARGITER: Would my noble friend apply his arguments generally, instead of, say, to a case like polio? Let us take the example of public conveniences in a local authority. I wonder what sort of regulation we should get from the Ministry in such cases.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I must say that I have a great deal of sympathy with the local authority associations in this matter. It has always seemed to me to be a point of principle which should be accepted by central and local government that there are certain fields in which Parliament says that local authorities must do certain things up to certain standards if they are to receive grant, but outside those fields it is desirable that the local authorities should enjoy as much autonomy as possible. I appreciate the ingenuity of Lord Kennet's answer. I do not mean to be
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disparaging when I say "ingenuity", for he drew attention to a complex aspect of this matter. But I cannot help feeling that if the Government desired to find a way through this problem which would not give offence to the local authorities, such a way could be found.
I would ask the noble Lord to give further consideration to this, because it is reasonable that those of us who care about the independence of local government should pay careful attention to words like this in a Bill before Parliament. Likewise, the local authorities have no desire to defy the central Government where the central Government think it right to make regulations which will set standards. But it seemed to me that, though the noble Lord's reply was effective in showing that this was not quite such an easy matter as the noble Lords who had raised the subject had perhaps supposed, it did not entirely prove that it would be impossible for the Government to find a way through. I very much hope that we can pursue this further. I should not have thought that it was a matter upon which anybody would wish to divide the Committee, but I should be sorry if it were just pigeonholed and forgotten about.
5.37 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: If this matter is to be pursued further, I should like to make one observation about it. Subsection (1) is not the sort to be interfered with. It allows the appropriate Minister to deal with the failure of a local authority to achieve or maintain a reasonable standard in the discharge of any of their functions. The subsection which we are considering to-day is ancillary to that. I feel that, whether it was a question for the court or for a district auditor, they would be on very dangerous ground indeed if they sought to use this subsection to lay down anything but minimum standards. The subsection needs to be read in conjunction with the one immediately before. It goes on, after the words to which objection is taken, to say:
"and in determining for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section whether there has been such a failure…regard shall be had to any such regulations and any other standards or requirements imposed by or under any enactment."
It seems to me, therefore (I say this with great respect to the local authority

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associations, and I entirely see their point), that this subsection is one which protects local authorities and not one that imposes any additional duty on them. They will be able to look at the standards which are so laid down, and which have to be laid down in accordance with the practice of local authorities generally. On the strength of that they could say, "We have done the minimum you require us to do."
That, I feel quite certain, is the effect of this subsection, and if this Amendment were carried it might have the very opposite effect, because local authorities would be protected in some cases and not protected in others, since no one desires to interfere with the first subsection. Therefore, I suggest that if any alteration were to be made it would require rather more elaboration than appears in this Amendment, and a little more consideration of what is the purpose of the subsection and the clause as a whole.
It is quite true that one can draw a distinction between the functions which a local authority is required by Statute to perform and those on which in some cases it is given an option—the functions which it may or may not perform. But one must be rather careful about the words used, and remember that a local authority can do nothing whatever except what, in one sense of the words, it is required by Statute to perform; that is to say, it often has a statutory duty laid on it, and in broad terms it is entirely a creature of Statute. After all, Parliament has an ultimate sovereignty which local authorities do not have, so that, in one sense of the words—though I quite see the point that has been made about this—they can do nothing which they are not required by Statute to perform, whether the requirement is a general one, such as that in Section 1 of the Education Act, or a specific one. Therefore, without wishing to interfere unduly in this very interesting discussion, and apologising for having taken up the time of the Committee, I think that this Amendment might not have quite the effect my noble friends think it will have.
LORD ROYLE: I always bow to the superior knowledge in these matters of my noble friend Lord Mitchison. He has a tremendous knowledge of them, and I take a great deal of notice of what he
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says. But he will remember that in opening this discussion I put the two subsections together and pointed out that there was a relationship. However, the powers which are being taken under subsection (2) are powers which would limit the activities of the local authorities, or at least, as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, has pointed out, take away some of their autonomy and a great deal of their independence. Nothing that my noble friend Lord Kennet or my noble friend Lord Mitchison have said has moved me on this point. I feel confident that I and my noble friends who supported me are right in this matter, and that subsection (2) will badly affect the local authorities, taking away a great deal of their independence, if these few words in the Amendment are not accepted.
But your Lordships know the difficulty. I always say this to noble Lords, if I have moved an Amendment from this side of the House: I am a loyal supporter of the Government, and I dislike the thought of sending anything back to another House, and therefore wasting time in a very busy Session. It is only on those grounds that I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. Nevertheless, in view of what has been said, I hope that by the time we reach the Third Reading my noble friend may have had another look at this and, if these words in the Amendment are not sufficient to achieve what is in our minds, perhaps he will have produced some others. It is in the hope that that might happen that I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD BURDEN: With due respect, I think that my noble friend Lord Mitchison has missed the whole point of this debate. The point of this debate and of this Amendment is to deal with the claim, as the clause stands at the moment, on the part of the Government to give directions in regard to a service to which there is no national contribution of any kind, and to give instructions in regard to a service for which the local authority has obtained powers under a Local Act. However, we all agree that in regard to health and education, which are national services, the circular instructions are appropriate. I want to support what my noble friend Lord Royle has said, and to say that the

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Association of Municipal Corporations feel very keenly about this. I would ask that between now and the Third Reading or Report stage the Government receive a representative from the Association, or any other bodies, to discuss this matter and see whether an adequate solution can be found.
LORD KENNET: I am always ready to receive representatives from the Association, but I think I should say not necessarily from any other body.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6:
Reduction of rates on dwellings by reference to the domestic element
6.—(1) Every rating authority shall reduce the amount which, apart from this subsection, would be the amount of the general rate levied by the authority for any year on any dwelling-house or mixed hereditament in their area by the following amount in the pound, that is to say—

(a) in the case of a dwelling-house, the amount prescribed for that year in pursuance of paragraph 1 of Part III of Schedule 1 to this Act; and

(b) in the case of a mixed hereditament, one-half (disregarding any halfpenny) of the amount so prescribed.

5.46 p.m.
LORD POPPLEWELL LORD POPPLEWELL moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "amount in the pound" and insert "percentage". The noble Lord said: I hope your Lordships will agree to discuss this Amendment with the two subsequent Amendments, and also with the Amendments to Schedule1. I should first like to apologise for not having put down these Amendments earlier than late last night. Hence they are starred, and it may be that the noble Lord who is to reply is not sufficiently aware of their importance. In this matter of giving easement to the domestic householder based upon the criteria laid down, there is, of course, a general overall desire not only to be fair, but to be fair as between one part of the country and another. As I see this Bill, it departs somewhat from that principle.
May I go into a little history of rating? I remember in my local authority days
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spending many hours and days with my local rating assessment committee, fixing the values of all the properties in my council's area. The handing over of this procedure to the Inland Revenue was chiefly because of the wide divergency which existed in rating all over the country, and of a desire to get a reasonable uniformity in rating as a whole. Naturally there cannot be complete uniformity, because the sizes and the letting values of property vary considerably according to the siting. For instance, a three-bed-roomed house in the Welsh valleys or the industrial towns will have a different assessment from a property in some of the more salubrious areas of our country. But this series of Amendments is designed to try to secure a little better balance than there will be if the Bill remains as it is, because it is suggested that rate relief should be calculated by a percentage, instead of by reference to the rate in the pound. The rate in the pound relief results in the occupiers of dwellings that have a high rating assessment receiving a larger amount of benefit than occupiers of dwellings with low rating assessments. This is so obvious that it must be the intention of the Minister that it should be so, and these Amendments do nothing to alter that, because of what I referred to earlier.
However, the rate in the pound relief has a second and a rather more unfortunate result. Not only do high assessments earn more relief in actual money, but they may also earn a higher percentage of relief than lower assessments. This is a very technical argument, and I hope your Lordships' Committee will follow me in it. For instance, similar properties in different parts of the country have different rating assessments in the way that I indicated a little earlier, and because these are based on rental values, and rental values in the prosperous areas are higher than those in the poorer areas, one gets a higher rating assessment in such areas. Let me take, as an example, a three-bed-roomed house in, shall we say, a place like Eastbourne. I am not quite certain of my figures here; in any case they are purely hypothetical. Let me take a three-bed-roomed house in a place like Eastbourne, with an assessment of, shall I say, £100, and a similar house in one of the industrial towns. There, we should probably find that, instead of

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the assessment being around £100 as in the Eastbourne area, it would be about £50.
Taking this illustration, and assuming that the rate in the pound levy is 16s. in the poorer area as against 8s. in the wealthy area, we get the result that a rate-paper in the poorer area and the ratepayer in the wealthy area would both pay an annual rate of £40. If we now take the amount of domestic relief on a £50 assessment at a 6d. in the pound relief, it would mean an easement of £1 5s. 0d. That is in the poorer area. If we take the same basis of 6d. in the pound, on the £100 assessment in the wealthy area one sees that the relief is £2 10s. 0d.—just double. It works out at 3⅛ per cent. for the poorer area and 6¼ per cent for the wealthy area. This indicates the argument I am trying to make, and I hope the Minister will have another look at it.
These Amendments that I am now proposing will completely remove this type of unequal relief. As this particular rate relief is also subject to a Government grant, it is important that it should be fairly distributed between one ratepayer and another. If one looks at the Bill itself one sees that it says that the amount of the domestic element payable to a local authority for any year shall be the proportion of the aggregate amount of that element which the aggregate amount of the reductions, in pursuance of Section 6 of the Act, brought into account in that year in the authority's records, bears in relation to the aggregate amount. This is the same principle. This is where reimbursement to the local authority, so far as rate grant relief is concerned, is passed on from the central Government by way of a percentage grant. I am asking that the same principle should be embraced in this Bill.
I think that this easement should be given to those persons who are seeking this particular domestic relief, because your Lordships will know that the basis of the relief to be granted does not vary from area to area; it is a static quantity, whether the person is living in a very wealthy part of the country or in a not so wealthy part. It is to remove this inequality that I propose these Amendments; and, as I say, I apologise for not
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having given more notice. Because of that, I do not think my noble friend who is to reply to me tonight will have had sufficient time to discuss it with the Minister concerned, but I sincerely hope that, now that I have voiced this particular point of view at this stage of our proceedings, he will give me an assurance that he will seek to discuss the matter with the Minister of Housing and Local Government and see whether it is possible, either on Report or at some other stage of the Bill, to meet the particular points that I have put forward. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 44, leave out ("amount in the pound") and insert ("percentage").—(Lord Popplewell.)
LORD SORENSEN: I fully accept the apology and explanation given by the noble Lord for the appearance of these Amendments at so late a time. Equally, I am sure he will appreciate the difficulty that this thrusts upon those who have been considering this Bill, for, of course, the Amendments involve many complex and intricate matters that may well need considerable discussion behind the scenes. But, be that as it may, I equally appreciate that the noble Lord's purpose is to secure greater equity as between one domestic ratepayer and another. I fully accept the figures and the illustrations he has given, for inevitably, in this world of inequality, inequalities exist in this particular sphere as elsewhere. On the other hand, it is quite possible that these Amendments may either increase the inequity or establish other inequities.
The noble Lord appreciates as much as I do that this Bill gives every domestic ratepayer a reduction of the same number of pence in the pound on account of the domestic element of the rate support grant. The object of the noble Lord's series of Amendments is to provide, instead, for a uniform percentage reduction in rate pound ages for domestic ratepayers throughout the country, and thus a uniform percentage reduction in rates. I repeat that the noble Lord's intention is an excellent one, and I thoroughly understand it. At the same time, I would submit that it is unacceptable because it takes no account of one of the objects behind the domestic element—that is, to counterbalance, to some extent, what the

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Allen Committee described in their Report as the over-achievement by the rate-deficiency grant of its object as a levelling factor.
Broadly, areas which have a high percentage of rate-deficiency grant (and will qualify in future for a high percentage of the resources element) are generally areas where average house rates are relatively low. The Government's earlier intention had been to deal with this problem by ending or radically changing the rate-deficiency grant itself; but, as he said in moving the Second Reading of this Bill in another place, the then Minister, Mr. Crossman, had been surprised and impressed by the affection (as he called it) which so many treasurers showed for the grant—an affection, I assume, arising not merely from long familiarity but from valid administrative and other reasons. He decided therefore to try to improve and rationalise the system rather than to discard it.
So the rate-deficiency grant is carried over into the new system, virtually unaltered, but the domestic element will correct some of its excesses by giving rather less than average relief, proportionately, in areas where house rates are generally low; and rather more than average in areas where average house rates are high. In other words, an attempt is made to secure the equity the noble Lord wants. It ought not to be thought that the initial difference in house rates is explained by a greater ability to pay rates. Thus, for example, the Allen Committee reported that
"rates are much lower in the North, for every income group, than in England and Wales…". (Paragraph 212.)
On average they took 2·1 per cent. of household income compared with 2·8 per cent. in London and 2·9 per cent. in the South; and, in case this is thought to be justified by the theory that all incomes in the South are higher, their figures showed that rates took 6·4 per cent. of incomes in London between £6 and £10 a week, but only 5·3 per cent. in the North; 5·4 per cent. of incomes between £10 and £15, but only 3·2 per cent. in the North.
As a corrective, the uniform poundage reduction proposed by the Bill is relatively mild and slow-working. It will, of course, give additional aid to those areas with low house rates and high rate-deficiency grant as well as to areas with
1240
high house rates and little or no rate-deficiency grant. Thus, 5d. off the rates this year would have given an average reduction nationally of 3·57 per cent. In Inner London the reduction would be 4·1 per cent.; in County Durham, 3·55 per cent.; in Inner London the average house rates, area by area, range from £45 to £121; in Durham, from £15to £36. London gets virtually no rate-deficiency grant. In Durham the county council gets 33 per cent. and all the districts save two also get the grant. The exceptions are districts with large amounts of industrial rateable value. Twenty out of the 35 districts get more than 40 per cent. deficiency grant, and it is of interest that the authority where the average rate payments per house are only £15 gets 68 per cent. grant.
The disparity between rates paid by householders in areas earning substantial amounts of rate-deficiency grant and those receiving little or none is generally substantial and, on the showing of the Allen Committee and comparison of the rates paid on, for example, post-war three-bed-room houses in different parts of the country, it does not appear to be justified by differences in levels of income. The Government therefore consider that the marginally higher share of the domestic element that will go under their proposals to the areas with high house-rates is amply justified. It does not depend upon the withdrawal of grant from areas with low house rates—indeed, they share in the new grant money from which domestic element will be payable; and it will not result in a dramatic narrowing of the wide spread of average house rates in different areas. But they think that it is a move in the right direction. They will of course keep a careful watch on the way it works out over the next few years for it, together with the whole of the system of local government finance, will come under review in connection with the work of the Royal Commission.
In these circumstances, having given this explanation to the Committee and to the noble Lord, and having thanked him, as I do, for bringing the attention of the Committee to the anomalies and difficulties that he had in mind, nevertheless I trust that he will appreciate that it is impossible for us to advise the Committee to make these Amendments, although I can assure the noble Lord

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that I will bring the points he has raised to the attention of the Minister.
LORD POPPLEWELL: I much appreciate what my noble friend has said, particularly in his remarks over the question of rate deficiency payments and how they affect the poorer areas. I accept that from my own experience in these matters. But I am afraid he did not understand my point regarding the variation of the domestic element of relief between one section and another. However, in view of the complexity and technicality of the whole problem, as has been indicated by my noble friend, I will give careful consideration to his observations. In the hope that it will not altogether rule me out from raising this matter again on the Report stage, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment. I shall not move the following two Amendments on the Order Paper.
Amendment by leave withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Grants for public open spaces]:
6.6 p.m.
LORD PARGITER LORD PARGITER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "on and after 1st April 1967" and insert "at any time". The noble Lord said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee to take the Amendment to Clause 8 and the Amendment to Clause 9 together so far as the arguments are concerned because they apply equally to both. I should not wish to detain the Committee by repeating the same type of argument with a variation of words in the case of the second Amendment. I am making these proposals as a result of representations made to me by the County Councils Association who I believe are also supported by the other associations of the local authorities.
In general, I would say that the proposal to reinstitute the specific grants are welcomed by the Association. A case was made at the time that they ought never to have been withdrawn. By its nature, this type of exercise operates so unevenly over the whole country that many authorities lost out badly as a result of the withdrawal of the specific
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grants, and other authorities may have gained something that they had no right to gain.
With regard to Clauses 7, 8 and 9, the fact remains that payment is provided for specific planning grants in respect of development and redevelopment, in the case of Clause 7; for public open spaces, in the case of Clause 8; and for reclamation of derelict land, in the case of Clause 9. The inconsistency appears to be that under Clause 7 grants in respect of the acquisition of land for development or redevelopment will be payable, whether or not the expenditure is incurred before or after the passing of the Bill. Clause 8, on the other hand, applies only to the acquisition of land for the purposes of public open space on or after April 1, 1967. Clause 9 draws a distinction between grants towards the acquisition of land for reclamation which will be payable irrespective of when the land is acquired, and grants in respect of carrying out approved works which will be payable only if the works are carried out after April 1.
The inconsistencies are quite considerable. There has been correspondence between the Association and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. They have maintained that it is administratively convenient to start specific grants without retrospection where this can be done fairly. The argument appears to be that in certain cases the acquisition is a sort of short, sharp action and therefore there is no long-term effect. The acquisition may be a short and sharp piece of work, but certainly the effect is not necessarily short term, because, in effect, the loan charges are equated on either a notional or an actual basis. Usually, with regard to the acquisition of land, it is over a period of 60 years. So it may well be that a local authority will, in this current year or before the commencement of the Act, acquire land. It would receive a grant in that year, or it would be an element in the general grant because it would be approved expenditure, and the normal case would be to provide a grant in respect of the notional loan charges. But it means that in effect, because this is being taken out of the grant element and put into a specific grant, the authority would receive nothing at all for the remaining period of, say, 59 years to which

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it might be committed for the repayment of the loan and loan charges.
This would appear to be quite inequitable, and the same argument may well be used regarding the question of work on land reclamation. This is not always a short and sharp operation. A local authority may buy derelict land, marshland, which may require filling in. Or it may buy derelict land in a mining area or something of that kind where a great deal of work has to be done and where the authority must carry it out over a period of years. In so far as the authority started work last year, it will not get grants for the future. It will get the amount which it would have got under general grant and nothing for the future. But it is committed to carrying out the work. So a progressive authority, which may be doing things for the general good of its population at the present time will be penalised, and a more laggard authority, which has not been doing anything and which will be pushed into doing something, or which may be more inclined to do something knowing that it will receive a specific grant, will receive grants over the whole period. This would appear to be penalising progressive authorities, and certainly encouraging people not to do things until they are either obliged or encouraged to do them by receiving the necessary incentive of a "carrot". I hope, therefore, that what is the fact with regard to Clause 7 may become the fact with regard to Clause 8 and that part of Clause 9 with which we are concerned.
The county districts who provide open spaces will not be the recipients of the need element of the rate support grant. I have in mind a county where many authorities will be concerned with this matter and have been incurring pretty substantial expense in connection with the acquisition of land, and so on, and with land reclamation. This is in Lancashire where if the clause remains as it is drafted it will have a considerable effect. With the Amendments I am proposing, if they are accepted, it would mean that the position would be reasonable for all authorities; and the authorities would be treated equitably, whether they commenced the action to purchase or the land reclamation before the appropriate date or after. The argument used by the Ministry with regard to develop-
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ment and redevelopment is that this is something that takes place over a long time and therefore it would be proper not to insert the date of April 1, 1967. If the Ministry recognise the principle, surely this should apply to the whole of the three clauses; and that is what I am asking the Government to agree to do.
If it is any consolation, I would point out that this will not cost the Treasury any more money. I know that there would be strong resistance if it did, and I am not even sure how we could deal with it in this House. But this will mean reallocation of the grant on a more equitable basis, out of the total sum to be provided. It is a question of distribution rather than finding additional money, so I hope that my noble friend may be able to indicate that the Amendment is acceptable. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 23, leave out ("on and after 1st April 1967") and insert ("at any time").—(Lord Pargiter.)
LORD BURDEN: I should like a little explanation about Clause 9(3). It reads:
"The amount of the grant which may be paid to a local authority under this section in respect of any land shall not exceed one-half of the expenditure incurred in acquiring the land and carrying out any works for its reclamation or improvement, as approved by the Minister for the purposes of this section"—
and this is the point about which I should like an explanation—
"reduced, unless the Minister otherwise determines, by the value of the land after carrying out those works,…".
In other words, the Minister contributes half towards the reclamation and putting the land in order, and when it is in order, the Minister, under this clause, will deduct from the cost the whole value of the land, which seems to me a little anomalous. No doubt there is a legitimate explanation.
6.14 p.m.
LORD SORENSEN: The noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, has had very great experience of administration as a county councillor and possibly elsewhere. I confess that I listened to him with fascination and admiration, both for his analysis and for his exposition. I, too, served on a county council for some twenty-five years, but I never had the experience that obviously the noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, had,

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partly because when I was first elected to that body and I asked to be put on the finance committee, it was decided that it would be more appropriate if I served on the mental hospital committee, which I did. Possibly the noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, served on both committees—I do not know—but, in any case, he has given us the benefit of his very rich and ripe experience.
I can assure the noble Lord that many of the arguments he has adduced have already been considered very carefully by the Minister, and the County Councils' Association, to which the noble Lord also referred, has, I understand, made representations. As a result of this, despite the eloquent description and explanation of the noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Burden, I am afraid that the Government cannot see their way to accept what he here proposes. There are two Amendments, one dealing with Clause 8 and another with Clause 9. I am glad that the noble Lord included both in his exposition, but I will try to deal with each one separately.
So far as Clause 8 is concerned, the Amendment seeks to remove the qualifying date of April 1, 1967, so that acquisitions of land or appropriations made "at any time" should rank for grant under Clause 8. The intention again is most laudable. The clause empowers the Minister to pay grant at a minimum rate of 50 per cent. in respect of expenditure by local authorities on and after April 1, 1967, on or in connection with the acquisition for use as a public open space of such land as he approves for the purposes of the clause. Land appropriated for use as a public open space may also be brought in as though acquired for the purpose. Expenditure incurred in the acquisition of land for use as a public open space is "relevant expenditure" for the purposes of general grant under the Local Government Act 1958. Loan charges payable after April 1, 1967, in respect of acquisitions prior to that date will be taken into account for the purposes of the new rate support grant, one element of which corresponds closely to the general grant. Expenditure in connection with acquisitions or appropriations effected from April 1, 1967, onwards will benefit from the new specific grant.
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The nature of the transactions here being assisted does not justify any arrangement for bringing past transactions into the new specific grant system. Open space grant relates to acquisitions or appropriations. These are short sharp transactions. In this way the situation is quite different from that of the acquisition of land for comprehensive redevelopment which may be assisted under Clause 7, to which the noble Lord alluded. A scheme of comprehensive redevelopment may take a considerable number of years to see through, and successive acquisitions may take place as the scheme progresses. All these acquisitions should be dealt with on the same footing, and so in Clause 7, which deals with the redevelopment grants, the arrangement must be such that the new grant system can look back to pick up acquisitions completed before the coming in of the new system, but forming part of a continuing whole.
These considerations do not apply to Clause 8. Transactions prior to the 1st April, 1967, stand by themselves, falling to be helped as may be as part of the expenditure assisted through the general grant and then under its successor, the rate support grant. It would not be reasonable to unravel the completed transactions of the past relating to the purchases of land for public open space in order to change the basis of grant aid. Without a very complicated exercise of this sort there could be duplication of grant aid. As a matter of reassurance, it may be mentioned that where land is already held by the local authority and is first appropriated for use as public open space after 1st April, 1967, the Bill provides for payment of grants in the same way as if the land had been acquired for that purpose on the date of appropriation. Detailed arrangements for the grant will be a matter for an explanatory memorandum, the terms of which will be a matter of discussion with representatives of local government. I imagine that this is very necessary.
Turning to the other Amendment to Clause 9, I would point out that the clause as now drafted provides for the payment of grant in respect of approved schemes for the reclamation or improvement of derelict, neglected or unsightly land where the works are carried out on or after April 1, 1967. The Amendment

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would enable grant to be paid from April 1, 1967, on works carried out at any time—that is before April 1, 1967. There would be serious practical difficulties in approving for grant purposes schemes where work was already in progress. In some instances it would be difficult to determine, when work had reached a certain stage, whether the land had in fact been in a derelict, neglected or unsightly condition. There could be arguments about the reasonableness of the works being undertaken. Once work had begun it would be difficult to settle whether value for money was being obtained or to exclude from the grant payment unacceptable costs—for example, works of development—which the authority might have carried out in good faith on the assumption that their expenditure would be reimbursed. The County Councils' Association pressed for this retrospective payment in correspondence in July of this year, but their request was refused for the reasons I have outlined.
The clause only requires the work to be carried out on or after April 1, 1967. The land which is to be reclaimed or improved, or any other land which may be required in connection with the reclamation or improvement, could have been acquired at any time. It was not thought right to restrict the grant to land acquired after April 1, 1967, because land may be acquired under a variety of powers and it may be that by a change of circumstances after acquisition works of reclamation are undertaken at some future date. I have done my best to give a reply to the noble Lord. I thank him again for drawing our attention to this complex matter, and in all the circumstances I hope that he appreciates why it is that I cannot accept this Amendment on behalf of the Government.
LORD PARGITER: I have listened with interest to the explanation given by my noble friend, none of which dealt with the equity of the situation. It dealt with the difficulties of applying the proposals I have put forward, and I can well understand Government Departments shying away from difficulties and being likely
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to be more willing to approve inequity in these circumstances. Nothing said by my noble friend alters the basic fact that this is inequitable as between one local authority and another, between the progressive authority which has done something betore the Act and the non-progressive authority which does something after the Act. He referred to the needs element of the rate support grant, but district councils will not get this in any case, and they will get no redress with regard to that part of the total grant available to authorities generally. If I thought that there was the least likelihood that I should get anywhere with it, I would carry this further, but as I know from past experience that I am not likely to get much change out of it, having regard to what has been said, I ask your Lordships for leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 agreed to.
LORD KENNET: It may seem that this would be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee stage of this Bill, and, if that is so, I beg to move that the House be now resumed.
Moved, That the House be now resumed.—(Lord Kennet.)
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I would not seek to dissent from that proposal but I trust it will not mean that we shall be expected to sit very late on Thursday instead. We are closing our proceedings somewhat early this afternoon, after disposing of only four Amendments, and we have a large number to deal with another day. Perhaps that matter could be considered in the appropriate quarter.
LORD CHAMPION:This arrangement has been made through the usual channels. I can assure the noble Lord that we will carefully consider what he said and, if necessary, will try to find another day, rather than sit too late; but I do not make a firm promise about this. It must all depend on the business programme that is facing us.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

THE HOSPITAL SERVICE AND PART III ACCOMMODATION
6.28 p.m.
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether steps cannot be taken to increase the co-operation between those working in the Hospital Service and those working in accommodation provided by local authorities under Part III of the National Assistance Act 1948, particularly in the case of the aged and infirm. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to put the Question on the Order Paper. I should like to divide my remarks into two parts. First, I will read your Lordships a short quotation from the National Assistance Act 1948. Section 21(1) at the start of Part III, says:
"It shall be the duty of every local authority…to provide—
(a) residential accommodation for persons who by reason of age, infirmity or any other circumstances are in need of care and attention which is not otherwise available to them…"
The reason why I put this Question down is that it seems as if in a number of parts of the country, particularly in the Home Counties, there are not enough beds provided by local authorities under this section of the Act. Where one comes across it frequently is when one is trying to transfer from hospital to Part III accommodation patients who have been restored to health so far as they can be, though it has not been practicable to send them home again. As a result of this situation, it is claimed by some that the local authorities have not done their duty in this matter and have not provided enough beds under this section of the Act. But by the two points that I want to raise I think it can be shown that this is not necessarily the truth.
The two questions that I want to put, partly to myself and partly to the noble Lady who is to reply, are: first, are more beds needed? And, secondly, can one say that the proper use is being made of the beds which exist at the present time? To secure the proper use of these beds (it is difficult to separate these two points completely) it is necessary to make sure that the procedure whereby a person is admitted into a welfare bed is satisfactory. The most general way this is done is by the efforts of the welfare officer
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attached to the local authority. I have had a good deal of experience of welfare officers, and I am bound to say that I have always found them extremely helpful and courteous, and they always try to do their best. But often they tend to decide, with no consultation with the doctor in charge of the patient, whether the patient is fit to be moved from the hospital to a home. This can cause difficulty, because we on the medical side may say that the patient is quite fit, and the welfare officer, who is generally a person of considerable experience, though not necessarily trained, may say that the patient is not fit. The result in such a case is deadlock.
If we were to make more beds available in the country, great expense would inevitably be incurred, and I do not think it is necessary to incur that expense. Therefore the rules for admission to these homes must be tightened up—because it is becoming more and more expensive to entertain people in these homes. When one has visited these homes and talked to some of the people (I am talking particularly about the accommodation provided under Part III for people who are infirm and incapable of looking after themselves) one finds that they have got there for all sorts of curious reasons.
One reason is that they feel lonely by themselves—and that may well be true. Another is that they feel that their neighbours are talking about them. A common reason for admission is that other people are gossiping on the stairs, pointing fingers at them as they go up and down stairs. These are what I might call sentimental grounds. It seems that this power has been interpreted too liberally in the past. Sometimes the matron in charge of a home appears (I say "appears", because I do not know) to have a good deal to say about the type of person admitted, for matrons do not like people who will cause great trouble. I can sympathise with their feelings because they have difficulty in finding staff. But these homes were not intended for nice, kind people who can do a good deal for themselves: they were intended for difficult people.
The present teaching, I think, is that generally one should maintain people in their own homes for as long as possible. That can be done in various ways by laying on domiciliary services for them.

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I agree that it is not always possible to decide on the amount of domiciliary services required. But supposing a person requires a great deal of services, it may be more expensive to keep that person at home rather than care for him or her in a welfare home. I feel that this principle should be borne in mind more frequently when applications are made for admission to welfare homes. One of the difficulties is that the majority of people in the Registrar General's social class No. 5—that is, the lowest class of all—particularly when they are single, tend to get into these homes, because they find for various reasons that it is difficult to maintain independent life by themselves.
I now come to the second part of my Question. It is difficult to ensure that there is efficient and good co-operation between the welfare department of the local authority and the medical side taking care of the patient. I do not say for one moment that this is the fault of the service; the fault, I regret to say, is that of Parliament, which passed two Acts, the National Health Service Act and the National Assistance Act, and provided no means for them to meet together in the middle. This has led to a great deal of difficulty and trouble. One has seen the way in which this difficulty can be overcome. When I was engaged in medical practice, about once a year, when I became overcrowded with people who should be transferred, I paid a visit to the welfare officer of the London County Council, who was a friend of mine, and told him of my troubles, and they were solved temporarily by people being moved on the spot. But that seemed to be a cumbersome way to do it, and one that ought not to be necessary in the future.
Tied up with that is the fact that when patients are discharged, particularly the infirm, whether from their homes or from hospital, and are taken into one of these Part III welfare homes, they have no continuity of medical care. They pass from a fully staffed and equipped hospital department, where they have been got on their feet and assisted to move again, to the care, quite often, of a part-time general practitioner. It has been said that this is quite right, and is supposed to occur, because when they go home they do not get more than the
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care of a part-time general practitioner. But the point is that they are not quite fit enough to go home, and therefore I do not think that argument applies with any great force.
What one sees frequently is that though people become mobile under hospital care and can look after themselves up to a point, when they get into a welfare home, because there is nobody to carry on that treatment, they tend to get put back to bed and become immobile again. This is done for a good reason: the staff are not experienced in the care of elderly folk and are afraid that they may fall down and break their leg or that some other catastrophe may occur. A very sensible circular was issued by the Ministry of Health some time ago which said that it was not necessary to transfer from a welfare home to a hospital people who are dying or who have a mortal illness. There I entirely agree. But I think this can be carried a little too far. You find, in some of these big houses, particularly, a large number of sick people who are lying there with no particular care and attention. I do not say that at the moment a great deal could be done for them all, but a certain amount could be done for some if they were seen by somebody from a well-equipped department of a hospital. Something could be done for them, as it is for their more fortunate colleagues who happen to go into the other channel and go into hospital.
The person who controls where they go is the general practitioner. If he thinks that they should go to hospital, they go to hospital; if he thinks that they should go to a welfare home, that is where they go. This can lead to a certain amount of trouble. The suggestion I would make is this. Would it not be possible for the hospital authority to have some control over, or some say in, the care of the patients in Part III accommodation of the welfare homes? This is the first suggestion that I have made that might cost a little money. I am afraid it would cost a little money, because it would mean paying a doctor to do extra sessions there or employing extra staff. This would have to be worked out. I think it would cost more money also because, if they were looked after properly, it would be necessary in some of these homes for the patients to have something to do.
It is awful for so many patients to find they have nothing whatever to do, because although it is not impossible, it is difficult for local authorities to employ physiotherapists or occupational therapists, which could make an enormous difference. In one little home I know in North London there are about seventy fairly mentally degenerate old ladies. We got a voluntary physiotherapist to come and do a little bit of "fun and games" in the evening, and the result was extraordinary.
I should like to ask whether more co-operation between the medical and welfare side could not be encouraged and, supposing it is not considered possible to run it on the medical side, whether the admissions to these homes could not be given more to an experienced medical social worker, or somebody who has some idea of what can or cannot be done. The alternative, which I think is going a little too far, would be for the Regional Boards and boards of governors to take over the Part III accommodation from the local authority. That would probably require Parliamentary time and Parliamentary work, so I do not put that suggestion forward as a very serious idea, but it may be a suggestion worth thinking about.
Another way in which we might save people going into these homes from the world outside would be to have more of these consultative clinics for elderly people established by the local authority. I think they exist in about 25 per cent. of the country at the present time, and they are all on rather an experimental basis. For my final point I should like to ask whether something of that sort could be considered, because it might not only save the pressure on the beds but mean that the beds would be properly used for the right people; and in that event we might not need to say continually that we need more beds.
6.42 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, before I reply on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I should like to say how grateful we are to the noble Lord for raising this point to-day, and how we all salute the way in which he continually brings it before us. As a poacher turned gamekeeper, I must say that this would have been my role had I not been stand-
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ing at this Dispatch Box. The noble Lord might like to know that, before I was part of the Government, I was very much concerned with this problem. Only today I received a report of the Old People's Welfare Conference, Putting Planning into Practice, one session of which—I did not speak at that one—was devoted to the subject which the noble Lord has so ably put before us this evening. We are, of course, all aware that the noble Lord is a practitioner of many years' experience in the field of geriatrics.
Where both hospital and local authority services for the elderly and chronic sick are well developed little, if any, difficulty is experienced in ensuring that patients are cared for in the way that is best for them. But where services are deficient on either or both sides, it is inevitable that there are difficulties such as the noble Lord has outlined: for example, misplacement, blockages of hospital or welfare beds, waiting lists to both hospital and residential accommodation and delays over urgent cases for transfer. There are particular difficulties in those areas which are short of geriatric beds but still have large, former Public Assistance, institutions in use as welfare homes. While co-operation in these circumstances between the respective authorities can do much to ensure that the difficulties are minimised and that the best use is made of the accommodation available, it is also necessary to extend the services themselves as the noble Lord has truly said. This is one of the objects of the hospital building programme, and of the plans for development of community care.
It would not be inappropriate, I think, for me to recall to your Lordships the recent action which the Minister of Health has taken to promote the care of the elderly in hospitals and in residential homes provided by the local authorities. In September last year the Minister issued to hospital and local authorities a Memorandum on the Care of the Elderly in Hospitals and Residential Homes. This Memorandum restated in more definite terms the responsibilities which both partners ought generally to accept. But it went further. It also contained a final section advocating joint planning and joint operation of the two services, and it suggested in detail administrative arrangements for achieving these objectives.

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May I quote from one section of this which impressed me particularly? Referring to the difficulties, the circular said, in these very strong words:
"The difficulties may arise because of the defects in past admission arrangements and in part because of mistaken assumptions by each service about the functions and limitations of the other."
The response to the Minister's advice has been encouraging. A number of Regional Boards and local authorities had, well before the issue of this circular, established joint working groups to survey the services available and to bring to light difficulties and deficiences. In some cases, therefore, existing machinery has been put on a more formal basis. In other parts of the country planning or working groups covering suitable geographical areas have been set up in response to the Ministry's circular of last year, with of course general practitioner representation. I think it is fair to say that almost throughout the whole country machinery for co-operation, which is so essential between hospitals, local authorities and general practitioners, is already getting firmly established.
I turn now to more detailed forms of co-operation, in which I know the noble Lord is particularly interested. In a number of areas there are joint appointments of geriatric physicians between local and hospital authorities. In one hospital region, for example, the majority of the areas are covered by joint consultant appointments. In another area—I know this will hearten the noble Lord—a geriatric physician has recently been appointed as a Co-ordinator of Geriatric Services covering the interests of the Regional Hospital Board, the local teaching hospital and the local authority. The effects of this imaginative appointment are being watched with keen interest.
In other areas geriatric physicians visit welfare homes at the invitation of the welfare authorities, and of course they advise on cases referred by the general practitioner. The Minister welcomes such co-operation between the two authorities. He very much hopes that local authorities will not hesitate to seek the advice and the assistance of the hospital geriatric physicians whenever necessary. Their help and skill, based on their wide experience, will prove of benefit to individual patients in residential homes,
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and may well enable them to suggest methods of prevention which might retard or even prevent deteriorating processes, thus lightening the load for the staff of the residential homes as well as possibly obviating the need for hospital admission.
The Minister shares the view that cooperation between the staffs responsible for hospital patients and for residents in welfare homes should be increased by all practicable means. But let us remember—and I know the noble Lord has underlined this—that while a pattern of co-operation can be laid down, its effectiveness will always depend on the resourcefulness of the different partners. The Minister appreciates the need for the continuing study of all practicable measures which will enable progress to be made. He also relies on the enthusiasm, willingness and good faith of those working in the services to put them into effect. I know that Her Majesty's Government will take note of the practical suggestions put forward by such an eminent worker in this field as the noble Lord who has introduced the Question this evening.

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  BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS AND U.N. BELIEFS
  ROYAL COMMISSION ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  ROYAL COMMISSION ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT