Sitting of 28 June 1966

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SAINT MARY, EALING BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  ROYAL ALBERT HALL BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.
  MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  TEES VALLEY AND CLEVELAND WATER BILL
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tomorrow.
MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (CAMBRIDGE, READING AND WALSALL) BILL
  MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (WEST KENT MAIN SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (BLACKPOOL PIER AND GREAT YARMOUTH NEW BRITANNIA PIER) BILL.
  Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    Barbados (British Development Division)
    Mr. Martenasked the Minister of Overseas Development whether the British Development Division in Barbados has yet recruited an education adviser and a public works engineer; and if he will make a statement on the work of these officers concerning primary education in the Leeward Islands.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Overseas Development (Mr. Albert E. Oram): An educational advisor has been recruited and has recently taken up his post. We hope to appoint a public works engineer shortly. These experts will be available to advise any Government in the area on matters within their fields of activity. I am sorry that I cannot say anything at this stage about particular projects.
    Mr. Marten: Is the Minister aware that in some of these primary schools in the Leeward Islands there are something like 400 children being educated in one classroom? Would he say whether this Development Division has funds which it can devote to this problem once these officers are working?
    Mr. Oram: I am aware of the seriousness of the problem. The hon. Gentleman had an Adjournment debate on the subject. The Development Division has no funds; it is there to advise the Government in the use of funds available to it direct from here.

    Zambia (Aid)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the total aid now given to Zambia; and for what purposes this aid is being given.
    The Minister of Overseas Development (Mr. Anthony Greenwood): Aid disbursed to Zambia in the current financial year, excluding aid for contingency planning, is expected to amount to about £4 million. I am including details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Wall: Can the Minister say whether that figure includes military expenditure and expenditure on communications, road or rail, inside and outside of Zambia? Is the British taxpayer going to be expected to finance the Zambian economy to keep it at the pre-U.D.I. level?
    Mr. Greenwood: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will look at the table which I am supplying to the House for details of this. So far as future aid is concerned, that is a matter which will have to be looked at when the time comes in the light of the economic conditions obtaining in Zambia.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is part of the financial aid given by the United Kingdom to Zambia being used for the purchase of Fiats for transport purposes, and has the British motor trade been invited to tender?
    Mr. Greenwood: I have no information on that point, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman would put down a Question.
    Following is the information:
    Expected aid disbursements to Zambia during the current financial year 1966–67

    (i) £24,000 as final payment of the £75,000 British share of the cost of the Zambia/East Africa Rail Link feasibility survey.

    (ii) £·6 million out of a total of £1 million promised towards the cost of the University.

    (iii) £690,000 for defence purposes.

    (iv) £1·8 million (approximately) grant aid to meet the cost of expatriate staff recruited under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme for work in Zambia.

    (v) £250,000 (approximately) grant aid in respect of Technical Assistance.

    (vi) £·6 million out of a loan of £3 million to assist with compensation payments to British expatriate officers.

    India (Mrs. Thipthorpe)
    Sir F. Bennettasked the Minister of Overseas Development what action he has taken with regard to the claim of Mrs. Thipthorpe to entitlement to a widow's pension from the British Government following the death of her husband, Percival Edgar Thipthorpe, on 8th August, 1947; and what has been the result.
    Mr. Oram: None, Sir. Mrs. Thipthorpe is resident in India and responsibility for any award of pension rests with the Government of India and not with the British Government.
    Sir F. Bennett: Does the Minister appreciate the importance of this, even though it is only an individual case, and does he realise that there is considerable doubt as to whether Mrs. Thipthorpe's husband did not the at a time when the responsibility lay with us—even if only a few days before India became independent? Does he realise that under successive Governments this unfortunate widow has had her case bandied backwards and forwards like a tennis ball? Should not the Minister look into this again to make sure that we have no final responsibility in this matter?
    Mr. Oram: The whole matter has been carefully considered, but if the hon. Gentleman has further details of the kind he mentions and he would send them to us we would gladly look at this further.

    Refugees
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Overseas Development in how many cases of unilateral aid to other Governments he makes conditions about help to refugees and their treatment.
    Mr. Greenwood: None, Sir.
    Mr. Digby: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the opinion of some of those in very close touch with the refugee problem more could be done in this way than in any other? Will the Government look at this again if they are interested in the serious problem of the refugee?
    Mr. Greenwood: This is a new aspect of development aid which the hon. Gentleman is putting to us, and I suspect that it is probably more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary than for myself, but I will gladly consider the point that he is making.

    University Posts (Commonwealth Citizens)
    Mr. Robert Daviesasked the Minister of Overseas Development why Commonweatlh citizens with the necessary

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    academic qualifications are precluded from appointment to university posts at British universities under schemes for overseas assistance financed by the Government.
    Mr. Oram: There is no absolute rule about this, but in general we observe the normal international practice of appointing our own citizens under our programmes of technical assistance.
    Mr. Davies: Would my hon. Friend agree that this involves limitation of academic freedom and that discrimination against Commonwealth citizens very often runs counter to the interests of developing countries?
    Mr. Oram: I cannot accept what my hon. Friend says. In general, we hope that the developed Commonwealth countries would be prepared to finance technical assistance programmes for their own citizens in developing countries. I cannot accept that there is any discrimination of the kind to which my hon. Friend refers.

    Feed the Minds Campaign
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of Overseas Development what request he has received from the Feed the Minds Campaign for financial or other assistance.
    Mr. Oram: No such request has been received, but there has been informal contact between this organisation and the Ministry.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Am I not right in suspecting that this is a cause close to the Minister's heart? Will he entertain favourably any reasonable requests?
    Mr. Oram: I am sure that it is a cause close to the heart of all hon. Members, and particularly of my right hon. Friend. We have been able to give useful advice to the organisation.

    Contractors (British Equipment)
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Overseas Development to what extent contractors employed by the Commonwealth Development Corporation are required to use British equipment.
    Mr. Greenwood: The Corporation is not always in a position to require contractors to use British equipment, but it
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    is certainly the Corporation's policy to prefer it when it is available on competitive terms.
    Mr. Farr: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but would he bear in mind that it appears that some of the representatives of C.D.C. are not aware that, where possible, British equipment should be utilised? As the taxpayer has a very big stake in C.D.C, it is not very much to expect this particular use.
    Mr. Greenwood: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. The difficulty is that in some cases the Corporation is in partnership with overseas Governments, and regard must be had to the sources of finance available, but the Corporation generates exports from this country to a total of about £11 million a year. Therefore, the Corporation is aware of this, but I will ensure that the Question and Answer are communicated to the Chairman of the Corporation.

    Overseas Service Officers (Salaries and Allowances)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Minister of Overseas Development (1) when the inducement allowances for officers operating under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme in Singapore were last reviewed; what increase in their emoluments to meet the rise in the cost of living there has been in the last 16 years; and when such increase or increases were made;
    (2) whether he will consider paying, by agreement with the Government of Singapore, allowances of expatriate officers operating under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme in Singapore direct to those officers.
    Mr. Oram: Salaries were last increased by 10 per cent, under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme in 1961, and were previously reviewed by the local government in 1953. There is no question at present of direct payment, because I am considering with the Singapore Government the future of the Scheme there in view of the difficulty of securing a further review.
    Mr. Tilney: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that indigenous civil servants often object to the larger salaries paid to expatriates which appear on their

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    order paper locally? Surely he must agree that, considering the rise in salaries elsewhere and the great rise in the cost of living in Singapore, it is high time that the salaries of these officers were looked at again.
    Mr. Oram: I agree that the difficulty to which the hon. Gentleman refers is a real one. This is why we are discussing with the Singapore Government the whole future of the scheme.
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the Minister of Overseas Development what progress has been made in the revision of salaries for pensionable members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service serving in the Seychelles.
    Mr. Oram: My consultations with the Governor are continuing and I am sorry that I am not yet able to make a statement.
    Mr. Clark: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that six months ago, when he answered a Question on this subject, he was having discussions with the Governor? Surely the time has come for us to see some results from negotiations opened over two years ago. Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that when an agreement is made payment of the increase in pay is back-dated by at least eighteen months?
    Mr. Oram: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this matter has taken a long time due to the difficulty indicated by an hon. Member in another connection. We have put proposals to the Governor and are awaiting the reaction from the Seychelles.

    Sports (Coaching)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Overseas Development how many British sports coaches under his sponsorship are working in development countries.
    Mr. Oram: One, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: In principle, are more requests likely to receive favourable consideration?
    Mr. Oram: Any request from the Government of a developing country of
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    this kind is sympathetically considered, but requests of this type have been infrequent.

    Kenya (Farms)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Overseas Development if agreement has now been reached with the Kenya Government about procedure for the valuation of farms of British subjects acquired for African resettlement.
    Mr. Oram: Discussions between the British and Kenya Governments on the method of valuation to be used for purchases of agricultural land in Kenya from British loans are still continuing.
    Mr. Wall: Have not these discussions been taking a long time? Will the hon. Gentleman address himself to the recommendation that valuation should be done jointly by British and Kenya Government representatives and that there should be an impartial tribunal to which appeals could be made?
    Mr. Oram: I agree that this matter has taken rather a long time, but it is difficult and complex. The report is under joint consideration by the two Governments.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Is it not about time that the British Government paid a very great tribute to the Kenya Government for creating the stability in Kenya which makes this matter not so urgent as it was some years ago?
    Mr. Oram: I am sure that we welcome the hon. Gentleman's tribute, which is, I think, well-deserved.

    Bechuanaland, Basutoland and Swaziland (Technical Assistance)
    Mr. Juddasked the Minister of Overseas Development what plans he is making for extensive technical assistance to Bechuanaland, Basutoland and Swaziland after their independence.
    Mr. Greenwood: Extensive technical assistance is already being provided to these three countries, and this will continue after independence if their Governments so desire.
    Mr. Judd: Would my right hon. Friend agree that if independence is to have any

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    meaning in this critical area, it is most important that a substantial programme of aid should continue after independence?
    Mr. Greenwood: Yes, indeed. We attach the very highest priority to technical assistance. But the scope of the help which we are able to give must depend on our financial resources.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the Secretary of State aware that one of the main problems in Bechuanaland is scarcity of water? What study has he given to the project for the irrigation of large areas by means of a pipeline from the Okavanga Swamp?
    Mr. Greenwood: I could not answer the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question without notice, but we are certainly aware of the importance of irrigation schemes and the digging of wells in Bechuanaland. We have done what we could to help, and other organisations and agencies have also given help.
    Mr. James Johnson: Will my right hon. Friend tell us what he is doing about the development of the Ox-Bow River irrigation power scheme, which is absolutely vital to the future sound economic base of this new State?
    Mr. Greenwood: These are matters which will have to be decided in conjunction with the Governments of the independent State. The question of the priority attached to various schemes must be, to a large extent, a matter for the Governments themselves.

    Gibraltar (Economic Aid)
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will announce the extent of future economic aid for Gibraltar.
    Mr. Greenwood: For the period up to April, 1968, Gibraltar has been allocated a grant of £1 million and a loan of £200,000 under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act.
    Mr. Fisher: I appreciate that that is quite generous, but as the economy of Gibraltar, through no fault of its own, has been drastically curtailed by the Spanish restrictions, and as the talks may
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    be protracted and may not have a successful outcome, it is, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree, up to us to be very generous—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must have a question.
    Mr. Greenwood: I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman has said. So far the allocation has been generous, I think, and the scale of future allocations must depend, to a large extent, on the progress the Gibraltar Government make with drawing up their development plan on which they are at present engaged.
    Mr. Rankin: Does this aid comprehend the money being spent in creating and constructing a tunnel in the Rock?
    Mr. Greenwood: Not as far as I am aware. So far, the money approved is to be spent on housing and the provision of a school.
    Mr. Farr: In view of the critical state in which Gibraltar finds herself, would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he will review the allocation from time to time to see whether it can be increased or revised to meet eventualities which may be as yet over the horizon?
    Mr. Greenwood: I think that we had better await developments. The Gibraltar Government know that they can always reopen these matters with us, but it is impossible at this stage to forecast what steps will be taken to meet those requirements.

    Basutoland (South African Officers)
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the Minister of Overseas Development how many officers of South African nationality are serving in Basutoland; and what terms of service he is prepared to offer these officers when Basutoland becomes independent.
    Mr. Oram: Eighty, Sir. Through the method and date of their appointments some of these officers are eligible for the benefits available under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme and will continue to be eligible after independence. As to the remainder, their terms of service will

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    be the sole responsibility of the Government of Lesotho, which is their employer.
    Mr. Clark: I find that Answer very unsatisfactory indeed. All the officers concerned are likely to lose their career prospects just as surely as expatriate officers in this country. Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will not follow the unfortunate precedent of East Africa where Indian and other Commonwealth expatriate officers were paid off with virtually no compensation? From his Answer, it seems that he proposes to do so.
    Mr. Oram: As usual in such cases, there will be negotiated a public officers' agreement which will ensure that the terms and conditions of employment are not worsened.

    Eastern Caribbean (Tripartite Economic Survey)
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he will publish the report of the tripartite economic survey on the Eastern Caribbean territories.
    Mr. Oram: The report was made public yesterday and copies have been placed in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Fisher: I am sorry that I have not yet had an opportunity to read the report. Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House in general terms whether it envisages economic assistance from the United States and from Canada in addition to the aid provided by the United Kingdom for the Eastern Caribbean colonies?
    Mr. Oram: I ask the hon. Member to read the report and, perhaps, to put down further Questions subsequently. Concerning aid from the Canadian and United States Governments. I cannot say anything on their behalf. The report is comprehensive and detailed and will well repay study.

    U.S.S.R. (Minister's Visit)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the scope and results of
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    his recent visit to Russia, indicating in particular what comparisons he made between the nature and progress' of Russian scientific development and British scientific development, and their respective practical applications.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on his visit to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    The Minister of Technology (Mr. Frank Cousins): I would refer my hon. Friends to my Reply of 24th May to the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer), in which I outlined the scope of my visit. I would not venture to make comparisons of the kind suggested.
    Mr. Hughes: What steps did my right hon. Friend take during his visit to substitute the doctrine of co-ordination in science between the two countries for the doctrine of competition, which would be to the advantage of both countries and of the world at large?
    Mr. Cousins: I took steps to discuss with the State Committee of Science and Technology the question of how we could co-operate and derive advantage from each other's experience, but I did not attempt to tell them that their doctrine was wrong.
    Mr. Dalyell: Does my right hon. Friend think that we have anything to learn from the Russian system of higher education inside large-scale industry?
    Mr. Cousins: It is always extremely difficult to make the kind of comparison in which it can be said that one side has the opportunity of learning something from the other. Both sides, however, know that they have to face serious problems and the technological resources of both countries are being utilised to what they regard as the best advantage. It is quite true that in these two countries some areas of excellence exist which may not be the comparable areas in each case.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: In trying to justify the visit to one's constituents, can the Minister say what was the cost to public funds of this visit?
    Mr. Cousins: I not only justified it to my constituents but I will justify it to the House if hon. Members wish me to do

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    so. I should certainly be prepared, at any time that any hon. Member wants to put down a Question, to answer it on cost, together with costs of visits which other people have made if hon. Members wish to refer back to them.
    Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that in Russia and many other countries there is much closer co-ordination between university research and industrial need than in this country? Does he not further agree that there is great need to have scientific management in this country of the type which can appreciate scientific changes? Furthermore, does he not agree— [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That is enough for the Minister to answer.
    Mr. Cousins: There is very close collaboration between the universities and some sections of industry in the U.S.S.R., such as. I hope that we are able to show we are developing in this country. This is one of the points in connection with which we said that closer attention needed to be given to the question of people moving from industry into the universities and in the reverse direction, too. Whether theirs is a better use of scientific resources is quite a different matter.
    Mr. Hogg: Without any desire to compare unfavourably one system with another, may I ask whether the salient characteristic of Russian science is not the separation of the university from the research institute, and are they not now seeking to reverse that process?
    Mr. Cousins: It is true that that problem has arisen and that the Russians are now attempting to reverse the process because they want to get closer together and closer in total to industry so that the effects and values of their science can be transmitted.

    Computers
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Minister of Technology, in view of the failure of the two major United States computer manufacturers in the field of very large computers, what plans he has to assist British manufacturers to build these machines, in view of their important
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    strategic and economic rôle; and if he will make a statement.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology (Mr. Edmund Dell): This country will have a limited requirement of such large computers and we are discussing with the computer industry how these needs might best be met.
    Sir C. Osborne: Since the British Atlas machine has succeeded where the Americans appear to have failed, may I ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary whether his right hon. Friend will not buy British for the universities and the Atomic Energy Authority, who require these machines, and so give a boost to the important British computer industry?
    Mr. Dell: We are certainly giving every possible encouragement to the British computer industry in every way, including the purchase of British computers for universities—for example, the recent purchase by Edinburgh University. We will continue this encouragement.

    Machine Tool Factory (Belfast)
    Mr. Fittasked the Minister of Technology whether he will take steps to establish in Belfast a machine-tool factory owned by the United Kingdom Government.
    Mr. Cousins: I have no plans for doing this at the present time.
    Mr. Fitt: In view of the high rate of unemployment which obtains in this sector of the United Kingdom, and especially in view of the impending closure of Short Bros, and Harland, does not the Minister consider that the time is now opportune to diversify, in line with the suggestion contained in the Question?
    Mr. Cousins: That supplementary question is slightly different from the original Question. Proposals for the diversification of activities of Short Bros, and Harland are under consideration by my right hon. Friend the First Secretary, to whom any Question on this subject might more properly be addressed.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Is the Minister aware that the recent experience of a Government-owned factory in Belfast was not a happy one for the workers in the industry in question?
    Mr. Cousins: I should have thought that in some cases it had been quite a happy one, too, for some of the workers in Belfast.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Does the Minister recall that eighteen months ago his right hon. Friend the First Secretary said in this House that he would encourage a British machine factory to set up an organisation in Northern Ireland? What has been done about it? Is it just another empty promise?
    Mr. Cousins: I suggest that the hon. Member addresses a Question about that to my right hon. Friend the First Secretary. I have just referred to the fact that the diversification of Short Bros, and Harland is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

    Economic Planning (Workers' Participation)
    Mr. Freesonasked the Minister of Technology what proposals his representatives on the economic development committees have made for establishing workers' participation in economic planning and in solving the particular problems of the industries for which he is responsible.
    Mr. Cousins: Trade union representatives participate in all the activities of E.D.C.S which cover the whole range of industries for which my Department is responsible. They enter fully into all discussions of proposals for solving the particular problems of these industries.
    Mr. Freeson: My right hon. Friend has not answered the Question, which was a follow-up to a previous Parliamentary Answer. Does he not agree that this is of vital importance in achieving the objectives set down in the Labour Party manifesto at the election to achieve industrial democracy in this country? Will my right hon. Friend please consult some of his right hon. Friends to get action in the field of industrial democratic development?
    Mr. Cousins: That again, I suggest, is entirely different from the Question which was put down. I am asked what directives my Department gives to economic development committees and I have answered the Question in the form in which it was put. If one is talking
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    about the question of participation of workers in industry in a matter of that nature, a Question should be put down.
    Mr. David Steel: Will the Minister encourage the suggestions of Liberal policy coming from his hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson)?

    Sea Water (Desalination)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the progress made by his Department with the desalination of sea water, indicating the commercial and industrial uses to which it will be put.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology (Mr. Peter Shore): Further development of the multi-stage flash distillation process continues, in conjunction with industry, using experimental facilities at Winfrith and Harwell. An additional sea-water test establishment at Troon will be used to improve plant design and to reduce capital costs. Work on other processes continues.
    Mr. Hughes: Does my hon. Friend realise that that Answer is rather vague and that it is thoroughly uneconomic to neglect this source of potential wealth which surrounds these islands? Will my right hon. Friend look at the matter from that point of view?
    Mr. Shore: I am sorry that my hon. and learned Friend should draw that conclusion from my reply. He will, I think, recall that about a year or so ago my right hon. Friend made a very considered statement to the House about the three-year programme of encouraging desalination, which is being undertaken by the Atomic Energy Authority. That programme is, of course, continuing.
    Mr. David Price: What work is the Minister's Department doing in conjunction with firms involve in worldwide market research on possible sales of desalination plant, assuming, as we hope it will be, that the work is successful?
    Mr. Shore: We are in close touch with the British firms who have already established an enviable record in this field, and that will continue.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Further to that Answer, would my hon. Friend not agree that this is one field of technological

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    advance in which the United Kingdom is well ahead, and that it has tremendous export potential, with great advantages both economically and politically, given substantial financial backing?
    Mr. Shore: I would certainly agree with my hon. Friend. We are doing our utmost to encourage the further technological devlopment of the industry, and we look forward to it not only maintaining but improving on its already excellent export record.

    I.C.T. and English Electric-Leo Marconi Companies
    Mr. Biffenasked the Minister of Technology what study he is making of proposals to merge or partially merge International Computers and Tabulators and English Electric-Leo Marconi.
    Mr. Cousins: The Government have made it clear to the computer industry that they would welcome the widest possible measure of rationalisation, but this is largely a matter for the industry itself in the first place.
    Mr. Biffen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there would be widespread concern at the prospect of his Ministry or the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation promoting a shotgun marriage between the two companies? Will he assure the House that he will make it privy to his thinking on this subject at the earliest opportunity?
    Mr. Cousins: The hon. Gentleman must have the wrong idea of what the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation or my Department is intending to do. We do not intend to promote shotgun marriages. We are talking with the industry about the rationalisation of its affairs in order to assist in the merging of some of these very important companies.

    Digital Computers (Design)
    Mr. David Priceasked the Minister of Technology whether he is supporting any development work on the application of the principle of light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation to the design and operation of digital computers.
    Mr. Dell: A recent study of the possible applications of lasers in computer
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    design did not disclose any immediate possibilities capable of early application. We are considering support for work aimed at the automated manufacture of micro-electronic circuits using lasers.
    Mr. Price: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that in order to get a computer to operate nearer to the speed of light, there is a very good case for using light itself instead of microwaves?
    Mr. Dell: We are investigating all these possibilities. We have not yet found any practical application, but investigation will continue with a view to seeing whether there are any applications.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the hon. Gentleman investigating the work which is being carried out in the United States in the use of lasers for communications? Is any comparable work being done in this industry?
    Mr. Dell: Yes, we are aware of that work, and comparable work is being done here.

    Research Stations (Capital Expenditure)
    Mr. David Priceasked the Minister of Technology why he is not prepared to publish the programmes of current and capital expenditure for the research stations under his Department up to 1970.
    Mr. Cousins: These figures are prepared only for departmental planning purposes.
    Mr. Price: Is not the right hon. Gentleman being rather naughty? If his colleagues in other Departments can publish their figures for future expenditures up till 1970 in the National Plan, why cannot the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Cousins: In the sense that the hon. Member referred to me I hope that I am not being naughty. My Department is developing a series of new policies and expanding the scope of existing ones. Estimates of costs of them are necessarily very tentative. What the hon. Member says is true. The preparation of such estimates is a departmental planning exercise, and when new plans are decided, they will be made known.
    Mr. Biffen: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there might be some virtue in private industry knowing roughly

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    what was his estimated budget and how he would distribute it between now and 1970?
    Mr. Cousins: I did not think that it was part of my function to tell private industry what my Department is doing about its estimates for planning and expenditure in the years between now and 1970.

    Factory, Bracknell (Compulsory Purchase Orders)
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the Government's special responsibility for the decision that the Sperry Gyroscope Company Limited's factory at Bracknell should expand, he will give instructions to the district valuer of the Inland Revenue at Maidenhead that special consideration shall be shown to those affected by the compulsory purchase orders made necessary by the decision.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): The district valuer will deal with claims as quickly as possible.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Does the Financial Secretary not appreciate that the Question does not deal with speed and that this situation arises directly from a Government decision? A large number of those involved are very old, and this is a case, in the name of humanity, for special consideration to reflect the speed with which people have to move.
    Mr. MacDermot: If the hon. Gentleman does not mean speed by "special consideration" I do not follow what he means. If he suggests that they should be paid especially favourable compensation, I think that that is an improper suggestion. The compensation must follow the formula laid down by law.

    Selective Employment Tax
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his present estimate of the percentage of the proposed selective employment tax which will be returned in refunds and premiums in each of the following areas, namely, England, the Highlands and Islands, and the North-East of Scotland.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan): Refunds and premiums, as a proportion of total tax payments, are estimated at just under 80 per cent, in England and at about the same figure in Scotland as a whole. It is not practicable to provide separate figures for particular areas.
    Mr. Campbell: Do not the figures which the Chief Secretary provided in answer to a previous Question indicate that in the Highlands the tax will be paid at a higher rate per employee than in any other region in the country?
    Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir, I do not think that that can be said, because it has not been possible to get out figures for other regions in the country. It was an endeavour by the Chief Secretary to get out statistics which has led the statisticians to say that they do not think that the figures are sufficiently reliable to publish, even if they could extract them from the records.

    Trustee Savings Banks (Unit Trusts)
    Mr. Iremongerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will introduce permissive legislation, similar to that permitting trustee savings banks to issue cheques to their depositors, permitting trustee savings banks to offer unit trust investment.
    Mr. MacDermot: The whole idea of a trustee savings bank unit trust, including the possible need for legislation, is under consideration.

    Estate Duty Office
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects the Estate Duty Office will be able to clear the estates which are at present held up resulting from the decision of the High Court in re Cameron deceased.
    Mr. MacDermot: The Estate Duty Office are now dealing with these estates and I hope they will all be cleared shortly.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman realise how very grateful I am to hear that in view of the very considerable delays that have been caused to estates which could not previously be wound up?
    Mr. MacDermot: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are aware of the difficulties and very much regret them. We are trying to clear these cases as quickly as possible.

    Land Commission Bill (Costs)
    Mr. Murtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the purchase price of the Land Commission Bill has risen by 11 per cent, in a period of five months.
    Mr. MacDermot: Because the pricing scales of Parliamentary Papers were increased in April 1966.
    Mr. Murton: Would this not have been an ideal opportunity for the Government to demonstrate their determination to keep down rising costs through increased productivity?
    Mr. MacDermot: Yes, but where costs rise, on occasions, it is necessary to increase prices. These prices have been increased over the years, under both Governments. As for this publication, the hon. Gentleman may be assured that there is some increased value for money, as the size of the Bill has increased.
    Sir C. Osborne: Does this further evidence of increased prices mean that the Chancellor has abandoned all hope of ever controlling inflation?
    Mr. MacDermot: No, Sir.
    Sir C. Osborne: Then what is he doing about it?

    Bank of Japan
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the Bank of Japan has assisted in measures to support the £.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am glad that the Bank of Japan again took part in the arrangements announced recently. The details are not published.
    Mr. Hughes: How does the Chancellor explain the fact that Japan, which was almost wiped out during the war, is in a position to lend us money when we are dithering on the brink of bankruptcy? Is it because Japan is not committed to spending so much on armaments?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is an apposite question. While I would not underrate
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    the heavy burden of peace-keeping for the rest of the world that this country undertakes, basically Japan's success can be attributed to a great rise in productivity and a substantial rise in exports. If we had had similar increases over the last 20 years, I think that we would be in a similar position.
    Mr. Gower: Is it not a fact that the Japanese have used with great success the machinery of a free-enterprise economy?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir, and so have we. The results vary according to the degree of application and the degree of managerial skill and enterprise, the degree of restrictive practices, and the general desire to ensure that productivity increases at a rapid rate.

    Disabled Persons
    Mr. Winnickasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he is taking to encourage local authorities to provide in new accommodation facilities for the disabled.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Grossman): The attention of local authorities was drawn to this question in the circular from my Department in 1964 which gave advice on basic design requirements and invited authorities to discuss their plans for housing the disabled with the Department's architects. I am most anxious that housing authorities shall pay special attention to the needs of the disabled but I have no reason to think that any further advice is called for at the moment.
    Mr. Winnick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of disappointment amongst disabled people that, by and large, local authorities are not doing enough to provide accommodation for the disabled? Might I ask him if he could possibly send out a new circular and try to urge local authorities to provide accommodation for those who are disabled?
    Mr. Crossman: I think that that has been done. Our Social Services Committee recently considered a paper on

    1579
    housing for the elderly and came to the conclusion that the housing of the chronic sick and handicapped presents no special problems. I am rather dubious whether more could be done by a circular.
    Mr. Tilney: Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the local authorities concerned the need to chamfer the kerbs nearby?
    Mr. Crossman: Yes, Sir.
    Mrs. Lena Jeger: Will my right hon. Friend consider this from a slightly different angle? When looking at plans for local authority building, will he look ahead and ensure that local authorities make all their buildings accessible by widening doorways and reducing the number of steps for people who subsequently become disabled during the course of their tenancy?
    Mr. Crossman: I think that if my hon. Friend restudies the circular she will find that that is precisely what it does.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will the right hon. Gentleman publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those authorities which he considers have taken advantage of the guidance given to them, so that they may set an example to those who have not done so?
    Mr. Crossman: I shall certainly consider the hon. Lady's suggestion.

    Water Supplies (Pipelines)
    Mr. Macdonaldasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will introduce legislation to set a limit to the length of supply pipe for which householders are now responsible under the terms of the Metropolitan Water Board Act, 1932.
    Mr. Crossman: I am not aware that the present law needs amendment in this respect. But I will be happy to look at any evidence my hon. Friend would like me to consider.
    Mr. Macdonald: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that the law provides that the householder is responsible for the pipe up to the stock-cock no matter how long that may be, so that if a leak is suspected the wretched householder may be personally responsible for digging up 50 or
    1580
    perhaps 75 yards of the public highway? Does my right hon. Friend think that this is reasonable?
    Mr. Crossman: I am aware of this problem and the responsibility which is put on householders, and I shall certainly consider it.

    Building Costs (Direct Labour)
    Mr. Sharpiesasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will publish a detailed breakdown of his estimate of the cost of construction of local authority houses by direct labour; and from what sources this information has been compiled.
    Mr. Crossman: No detailed breakdown of these estimates of cost is available. The information is compiled from figures provided by local authorities.
    Mr. Sharpies: How can the right hon. Gentleman justify the assertion which he made with regard to direct building costs, which he said was based on statistics, when he refuses to publish the figures? Can he say how, unless these statistics exist, his hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary was able to give a figure down to the nearest halfpenny?
    Mr. Crossman: The fact is that these are estimated figures, not actual costs. I think that they provide a good guide. We are getting further information to try to test this.
    Mr. Rippon: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how, in the absence of these figures, he will fulfil the pledge which he gave to the National Federation of Building Trades Employers on television last night that private enterprise would be able to compete on equal terms with the direct labour departments of local authorities, and what steps will the right hon. Gentleman take to fulfil the pledge to see that there is a proper breakdown of the cost of direct labour?
    Mr. Crossman: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. One of the first things that we are doing, as I explained last night on television, is to separate maintenance from direct labour new building. This is the first step to enable us to have the genuine cost of the new building, as distinct from the maintenance.
    Mr. Freeson: Will my right hon. Friend consider further whether it is possible to remove some of the obstacles to allow local authority direct labour forces to compete fairly with private enterprise?
    Mr. Crossman: I have considered this, and the major obstacle was the one that we have removed, the third tender provision. This has been knocked out, and I think that they can compete on equal terms.

    Main Line Railways (Countryside Billboards)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will take steps to encourage the relevant local authorities to tighten up the regulations governing the display of billboards in open fields alongside roads and railways.
    Mr. Crossman: The existing regulations give the local authorities wide powers of control which are widely used; but if my hon. Friend would let me have particulars of any cases he is concerned about, I will make inquiries.
    Mr. Parker: Has my right hon. Friend noted all along the main line railways the new advertisements which have gone up during the last few months to advertise paints, and so on?
    Mr. Crossman: I have not noticed this. I should have thought that this was one of the controls which was competently covered, but if my hon. Friend has hard evidence on this I hope that he will give it to me.

    Daily Telegraph Correspondent (Expulsion)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he is aware of the expulsion of the Daily Telegraph correspondent from Nigeria; and whether he will make representations to the Government of Nigeria.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Arthur Bottomley): I am aware of the deportation of Mr. David Loshak by the Nigerian authorities. He has been declared a prohibited immigrant. Mr. Loshak has publicly stated that the Nigerian authorities treated him with every courtesy and consideration, that he was allowed to communicate with our High Commissioner, and that he was given ample time to pack his belongings.
    The British Government accept the view that other Commonwealth Governments have the right to expel citizens of other Commonwealth countries in accordance with their own law, though Governments should not abuse this right by proceedings arbitrarily. Whilst I regret the action taken, I do not propose to make further representations in this case.
    Mr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since this happening the correspondent of the Observer and Guardian has also been expelled? Will the right hon. Gentleman seek to establish the principle that aid to Commonwealth countries must depend upon the freedom of the British Press to report in any country the truth as they see it?
    Mr. Bottomley: With regard to the two journalists to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, I have requested our High Commissioner to make strong recommendations against their expulsion, and I am awaiting a reply.
    Mr. Speaker: Sir Geoffrey de Freitas.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Mr. Speaker, I rose earlier to a ask a question, but in view of the answer to that supplementary question I have nothing to add.

    SCOTLAND (ROYAL COMMISSION ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT)
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Prime Minister why, in view of the fact that a Royal Commission on Local Government has not been appointed for Wales owing to the existence of alternative bodies studying the subject, he has recommended the appointment of a Royal Commission for Scotland where the Scottish Office

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    and local authorities began a major review in 1963.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Because it had become clear that an authoritative independent inquiry was needed before the differences of opinion which had emerged in Scotland could be resolved.
    Mr. Campbell: Why was Scotland not treated in the same way as Wales, especially as Scotland was two years ahead of both England and Wales with the existing machinery?
    The Prime Minister: Scotland had gone ahead in the appointment of the working party and the steering committee of elected councillors. It was because it became clear last year that there were deep differences within these bodies, and apparently irreconcilable differences, and that it was not possible to proceed by agreement that it was thought necessary to have this looked at.
    Mr. Birch: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea when there will be a decision on Wales?
    The Prime Minister: I did not quite hear the right hon. Gentleman's question.
    Mr. Birch: Can the Prime Minister say when an announcement will be made about boundaries in Wales?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Gentleman must have missed my previous announcement about the establishment of a Royal Commission to deal with this question. I said at the same time that if there were any urgent cases they could be dealt with ahead of the report.
    Mr. W. Baxter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a certain amount of misgiving in Scotland about the composition of this Royal Commission? Why is it that there is one Labour Member, one Conservative Member and one Liberal Member on the Commission in view of the numbers in this House representing the different political complexions?
    The Prime Minister: I was not aware that there was concern in Scotland about the composition. All persons appointed to a Royal Commission are chosen in
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    relation to their inherent and intrinsic qualities rather than any representational capacity.

    EAST OF SUEZ (MILITARY COMMITMENTS)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister what recent proposals have been put to other members of the Commonwealth concerned as to the United Kingdom's intentions on the continuation of military commitments in an east of Suez rôle; and whether he will give an assurance that in the interests of national solvency such commitments will be quickly and substantially reduced.
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to Answers given to similar Questions on 22nd June by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and by myself on 23rd June.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend recollect that last Thursday he talked about a substantial reduction of forces east of Suez following the elimination of the confrontation with Indonesia? Will he give an assurance that, despite the assertion of the Secretary of State for Defence that these troops would be redeployed in other areas, this will still mean a substantial financial reduction in our defence commitment?
    The Prime Minister: I recall clearly what I said. I meant it then and that is the position of the Government. We intend to have a massive reduction in those troops who necessarily had to do a job in resisting confrontation.
    Sir R. Cary: In view of two speeches made the other day by Sir Robert Menzies and the Prime Minister of New Zealand about the vital importance to world peace of Britain keeping her rôle east of Suez and in the Far East, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to confirm that that is the Government's policy?
    The Prime Minister: While not being responsible for speeches made either by a distinguished ex-Prime Minister like Sir Robert Menzies or the Prime Minister of New Zealand, I have said clearly that we intend to stand by our commitments as set out in the Defence White Paper?
    Mr. Barnett: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that troops leaving Malaysia will not be sent to Thailand?
    The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that many of these questions are being discussed in Canberra at the present time, but our intention is that as troops were sent from this country from the Strategic Reserve and from elsewhere to deal with a very special commitment in Malaysia there need be no question of their being redeployed in that area although, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has said, our first priority must be to reduce the overstretch on the Forces. This is the first priority before any other questions of deployment are considered.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Has the Prime Minister any proposal—as the Minister of Defence seemed to indicate in a slightly ambiguous statement the other day—to refuse to supply arms to Australia if they are to be used in Vietnam?
    The Prime Minister: I was asked that Question last week. I gave an answer to it then, and I shall be glad to give a copy of it to the hon. Member.

    HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN (NORTHERN IRELAND VISIT)
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Prime Minister, in view of the likelihood of disturbances which may affect the safety of Her Majesty during her proposed visit to Northern Ireland on 4th July, if he will now tender advice suggesting that the visit be cancelled.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the Prime Minister aware that many people, both in Britain and in Northern Ireland, feel that a visit by Her Majesty to Northern Ireland is not wise at a time when disorders are being fomented and murders perpetrated by a gang of neo-Nazis in that part of the Kingdom? Can he say whether he or any other person can give an absolute guarantee of the safety of Her Majesty on the occasion of her visit in these circumstances?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Member will recognise that the duty of Her Majesty's Government in advising Her Majesty does not extend in general terms to a visit within the United Kingdom, except to the extent that the point is raised—which the hon. Member did
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    raise—of possible danger to Her Majesty's person. On this subject we have been in the closest touch with the Northern Ireland Government and we feel that it would be wrong for us to tender the advice that Her Majesty should not go. With regard to the outrages described by the hon. Member, I understand that a number of persons have been arrested on charges arising out of this shooting incident. With regard to this organisation, I do not think that the hon. Member overstated the position in the words he used; it is a quasi-Fascist organisation masquerading behind a clerical cloak. I understand that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland has this afternoon announced in the Northern Ireland House of Commons the decision of the Northern Ireland Government, under the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) (Northern Ireland) Act, 1922, to declare the so-called Ulster Volunteer Force an unlawful association.
    Mr. Fitt: Is the Prime Minister aware that only last week the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland refused to implement the provisions of the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) (Northern Ireland) Act against this organisation, and also that an explosive situation exists in Northern Ireland today, due to the reluctance of the Northern Ireland Government to protect the lives of their subjects? Is he further aware that there are Unionist extremists and murder gangs operating in the streets of Northern Ireland? It is for this Government to take action and not the Government of Northern Ireland— [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the subject matter of the Question, which is the safety of Her Majesty.
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the subject matter of the Question, whatever was the position a week ago, I have informed the House that the Government of Northern Ireland have proscribed this so-called Ulster Volunteer Force. The words that I used in describing it, as well as the words used by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), did not go beyond or in any way improve upon the very strong condemnation of this organisation and its members by the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland himself in his Parliament.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Arising out of that reply, are not the strong measures to be taken by the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland almost inevitable after the dastardly act of last Saturday night, which we all condemn, as do 99·9 per cent, of the Northern Ireland population? Would it not, therefore, be desirable that nothing should be said, here or there, to inflame passions?
    The Prime Minister: I began by describing this as an outrage. I am certain that the whole House will condemn these outrages. I have said that certain persons have been arrested and I cannot say any more about that because the matter is now sub judice. I would say that a higher proportion of the Northern Ireland population than the hon. Member quoted—and in the United Kingdom as a whole—would condemn this recourse to violence for any purposes whatsoever.

    RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Prime Minister what machinery exists for determining the total resources of manpower and money for research and development.
    The Prime Minister: The normal interdepartmental machinery, Sir.
    Mr. Lubbock: Can the Prime Minister say why, in the National Plan, no attempt was made to collect together figures concerning the requirements for manpower and resources in respect of science and technology between now and 1970? Can he also say whether the Committee on Manpower Resources in Science and Technology is empowered to look at the whole field, including manpower employed in defence?
    The Prime Minister: Yes. It is the duty of the Committee on Manpower Resources for Science and Technology, and although a great deal of work on this subject was done in relation to the National Plan there was no special entry or special section dealing with this question. But the House will be aware that Sir Solly Zuckerman—having now come into the Cabinet Office full-time—is looking intensively at all questions arising out of the co-ordination of scientific and
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    technological matters—and manpower will be one of those.
    Mr. Maxwell: Is the Prime Minister aware that the United Kingdom is the only country in the world in which there exists a dichotomy in manpower planning as between defence and civil purposes? Can he tell the House whether this dichotomy will be ended, since it is harmful to the national economy?
    The Prime Minister: I have told the House that it is our policy to redeploy far more of the scientific resources of the country to civil purposes rather than to defence, and the transfer of a great part of the Ministry of Aviation to the Ministry of Technology will further that process. My hon. Friend will also be aware that compared with only two years ago our expenditure on civil research and development has increased under the Estimates from £194 million to £259 million on the Civil Votes.

    MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA
    Mr. Sandysasked the Prime Minister if he will state the number of British Service men who were killed, wounded or disabled while engaged on duties connected with the defence of Malaysia against Indonesia, the approximate expenditure incurred by Great Britain in these operations, and the amount of military and economic aid provided to Malaysia since its formation.
    The Prime Minister: 64, 89, an extra cost of £5 million a year, £22½ million and £12,700,000, Sir.
    Mr. Sandys: In view of the very heavy sacrifice which Britain has made to help Malaysia defend herself against Indonesia is it not very sad that at this moment, when confrontation is coming to an end, we should receive nothing but reproaches and criticism from Kuala Lumpur? Can the Prime Minister say what has happened to bring about such a serious and unfortunate deterioration in our relations with Malaysia?
    The Prime Minister: It is a little unfortunate, in view of the actions of successive Governments in this country in honouring our commitments to Malaysia on such a scale. Difficulties began to arise last August, when

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    Singapore was pushed out of the Malaysian Federation without consultation with us, or prior information being given to us, and I think that once this situation arises there is always a suspicion on the part of one party that we are leaning over in support of the other party. That is part of the difficulty. Also there is the feeling of the Malaysian Government that we should be giving them much more defence aid. But we have to cut our coat here very much in accordance with the financial resources that we have available.

    DENIGRATION, SLANDER AND GUILT BY ASSOCIATION
    Mr. Haleasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increase of group denigration, slander by innuendo, and guilt by association in the United Kingdom, he will introduce legislation to prohibit these practices.
    The Prime Minister: I do not accept my hon. Friend's premise and the Answer to his Question is, therefore, "No, Sir".
    Mr. Hale: Does my right hon. Friend recall that he and I were for many years members of a proscribed organisation, constantly assailed by group innuendo and ofttimes ambushed at short range? Would he not now declare—because I feel that he believes this—that the worst of all menaces to freedom of speech is semi-official, semi-secret inquisition?
    The Prime Minister: I have been associated with my hon. Friend in many high endeavours, none of them having been proscribed. I do not think that the War on Want Organisation has ever been proscribed by anyone. Although we were sometimes criticised, most people have now come round to the point of view that we were then expressing. If my hon. Friend is referring to anything that I said in the House last Monday, if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I hope to have a chance of going into this question in more detail, and in a manner which I think will reassure my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: In the light of the Question and Answer which we have just heard, will the Prime Minister bear in mind, for other occasions, the great danger of legislation proscribing particular forms of political expression?
    The Prime Minister: I may have a word to say about that if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.

    NATIONAL UNION OF SEAMEN (EXECUTIVE COUNCIL)
    Sir J. Edenasked the Prime Minister if he will publish a White Paper giving the details of the pressures being exerted on the Executive Council of the National Union of Seamen.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillanasked the Prime Minister what was the nature of the pressure brought by some individuals on some of the Executive Council of the National Union of Seamen; what evidence he has as to the methods by which they in turn have been able to dominate the majority of that union; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Prime Minister what official discussions he has had concerning pressures on the control of the Seamen's Union with the Trades Union Congress General Council and their Finance and General Purposes Committee; and what was the outcome of these discussions.
    The Prime Minister: I would ask hon. Members to await the speech which, if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I hope to make during the course of today's debate.
    Sir J. Eden: Is it not possible that the publication of this information might in future help to minimise the evil influence of politically motivated men working against the national interest?
    The Prime Minister: If I do catch your eye, Mr. Speaker—I am not trying to put pressure on the Chair in this matter by repetition of this phrase—I hope to give some fairly full information which should be in the possession of the House. A White Paper would not necessarily improve on what I intend to say.
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, but would the Prime Minister be quite certain that all the details he is going to give us and any supporting evidence which he may not choose to mention this afternoon will eventually be available to the House so that its final judgment may be made with accuracy and completeness?
    The Prime Minister: I will give the House all that it is in my power and which would be right for me to give and the House must judge after I have made the speech this afternoon whether I have said too little or too much or whether I have got it about. right.
    Mr. Lewis: When my right hon. Friend comes to make his statement concerning his interview with the T.U.C. General Council, will he see to it that he gives information as to whether his discussions took place before or after the T.U.C. Council had protested and whether or not he conveyed the information which he will give to the House to the T.U.C. General Council before disclosing it to the House?
    The Prime Minister: This particular point of timing is not in the words which I would hope to address to the House. When the General Council met last Wednesday morning, they wanted to know more about it—certain statements were made to the Press then—and asked their General Secretary to see me later that evening. It was on that occasion that I gave the information to which my hon. Friend has referred.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Could my right hon. Friend tell us whether these sinister conspirators were not only behind the seamen but the motive force behind the demand for increased wages by the bankers and the doctors?
    The Prime Minister: I have no evidence at all that pressures of that kind were either generated or necessary. In the case of the doctors, for example, and equally in the case of the seamen, there was no need for any outside pressures from anyone to make the case for their pressing for higher payment. My references were not to pressures for higher wages, which are inevitable and understandable; my references were to certain interventions keeping a strike going when significant concessions had been made, and in other ways to attempt to extend the strike. That is a very different thing to what we are talking about.

UNITED KINGDOM AND FRANCE (RELATIONS)
Mr. Heath Mr. Heath (by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of the forthcoming visit of the French
1592
Prime Minister, he will make a statement on present relations between Her Majesty's Government and France.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): While, as the House knows, there are differences of view between ourselves and the French Government on questions affecting the organisation of the Atlantic Alliance, it is our constant purpose to maintain the best possible relations with France. We look forward to the French Prime Minister's visit next week as a welcome opportunity for improving these relations on the wide range of interests which we have in common with France.
Mr. Heath: Is it not unfortunately a fact that the speech made by the Secretary of State for Defence, whose apology to the House yesterday the whole House accepted, has, unfortunately, damaged the relations between this country and France? Can the Prime Minister therefore confirm the reports in the Press today that an apology was sent by the Prime Minister to the French Government?
The Prime Minister: The position about the French Government is that, on my instructions, the French Embassy was informed yesterday morning that my right hon. Friend would be making that statement. I understand that my right hon. Friend himself telephoned the French Embassy so that this could be conveyed to the French Government.
I think that my right hon. Friend, having made a mistake in the way he expressed himself in this unprepared aside in a speech outside the House, did the right thing in coming straight to the House and explaining what he was trying to say and expressing his regret at the words he used and his disavowal of any intention to be discourteous.
If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to leave it there, I would ask him whether he recalls what he said three years ago, when he said:
"The high hopes of so many have thus been thwarted for political reasons at the will of one man."
His right hon. Friend the then Foreign Secretary, after describing the action, said:
"That is not the way you ought to treat an ally and a friend."

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When asked whether General de Gaulle seemed to have deceived Britain, he went on to say:
"I think in this respect, one must be absolutely frank and say, 'Yes'."
These were considered and deliberate Ministerial statements. None of them was the subject of any personal statement of qualification, withdrawal or expression of regret, [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Member for Easington cannot hear me calling him to put a question. Mr. Shinwell.
Mr. Shinwell: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that any deterioration in Franco-British relations dates back to the period when the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) was negotiating on the Common Market?
The Prime Minister: There were some unfortunate things said on that occasion. I have a list of some more if the right hon. Gentleman wants to get up and ask for them.
Mr. Tapsell: After what the Prime Minister has said this afternoon, is he still expecting the visit of M. Pompidou to prove fruitful?
The Prime Minister: Very fruitful. It took a year or two, culminating in the talks with President de Gaulle in April last year, to undo the harm which was done in February, 1963, and I think that we will improve on that this time.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman has sought to draw a parallel between something which I said during the time of the Brussels negotiations and the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Defence. At the time of the negotiations, I think, we were entitled to say that the French Government at that time had misled us. That is a very different thing from saying that one does not trust a Head of State.
The Prime Minister: The word which the right hon. Gentleman used in the Answer to the Question was not "misled"; it was "deceived".
Mr. Michael Foot: In view of the injury which might be done to Anglo-French relations, which all of us might deplore, by these exchanges, does not my
1594
right hon. Friend think that it would be better if the leadership of the Opposition were officially taken over by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys)?
The Prime Minister: I do not think that this is a matter for me, but I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will learn when and when not to use Private Notice Questions—
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Heath: First of all, on a point of order, is it not a reflection on the Chair that the Prime Minister should challenge the use of a Private Notice Question on this point?
The Prime Minister: Further to that point of order. It was not a reflection on the Chair for accepting it, because, of course, it is the tradition that, if the Leader of the Opposition puts a Question, it is always accepted if it is in order. It was a reflection on the right hon. Gentleman's sense of tactics for twice having tried to use this and getting "clobbered" both times.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is important that the Chair remains outside the battle. For the record, I must make clear, in view of what the Prime Minister has said, that whilst the Leader of the Opposition has the right to put Questions without them appearing on the Order Paper, the Questions he puts must be in order, as with any other Questions put by hon. Members. And when the Leader of the Opposition submits a Private Notice Question to Mr. Speaker, it must conform to the rules of order, like Questions submitted by any other hon. Member.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is nothing in what he quoted from my remarks which is a personal attack on a Head of State such as was made by the Secretary of State for Defence? Is he aware that I was giving the Prime Minister the opportunity of trying to improve relations with France —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—as I can justly claim that my own relations with President de Gaulle and the French Government are of the happiest? Will the right hon. Gentleman cease treating this as a light-hearted question and return

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to the serious matter of improving relations with the French Government? Instead of behaving like his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, will the right hon. Gentleman try to behave like a Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister: I would be more impressed with the right hon. Gentleman's statement of his motives and his appeal to treat it in this way if he did not always, when he was going to use one of these tactics, tell the Press in advance —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There were headlines in two Tory newspapers this morning and—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Chair wants to hear the duellists. There are too many seconds about.
The Prime Minister: Two Tory newspapers this morning said that the right hon. Gentleman was going to use the personal statement made by my right hon. Friend yesterday for a political attack on the Government.
Mr. Hastings: Is it not a fact that the remarks alluded to by the Prime Minister were made at the end of a long, painstaking and, above all, honest attempt to negotiate our way into Europe and that there was a great difference between that and the gratuitous insults offered by the Secretary of State for Defence at a time when the present Government are protesting their intention to start such negotiations when they can?
The Prime Minister: This is, in my experience, the first time that a personal statement has not been accepted by the House in the spirit in which it was made. As for the earlier statement of February, 1963, it was made at the end of a painstaking and difficult series of negotiations. In that debate, after the right hon. Gentleman has spoken bitterly, but not in the sense of the words I have been quoting from other speeches, I said that I fully understood his disappointment and why he felt like that because, I said, I had once had a similar disappointment when negotiating with the Soviet Union.
I understood why he said that at the time, so I do understand these things. Nevertheless, if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite want to make anything out of my right hon. Friend's statement last weekend—which was not a
1596
considered statement and which was in a different context—it is right to remind them of considered Ministerial statements which they made three years ago.
Mr. Edelman: In the course of comparisons between different attitudes towards President de Gaulle, will the House recall that the Leader of the Opposition gave a hospitable reception to M. Tixier-Vignancourt, who was an advocate of those who tried to assassinate President de Gaulle?
The Prime Minister: It is not for me to comment on the right hon. Gentleman's social life.
Mr. Hogg: Will not the right hon. Gentleman and the House now recall that it is not so long since French and British blood was shed in a common cause?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. That is true, and not only that. Much more recently there have been many joint ventures started between the French and British Governments and many of them are of very great importance to us at the present time. That is why I deprecate the fact that when my right hon. Friend, having made a slip of the tongue, which can happen to anyone—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] My right hon. Friend made it very plain yesterday, he explained it and withdrew it and was very frank. I deprecate that this should be used for party reasons to try to stir up bad relations.
Mr. Lipton: On a point of order. May I respectfully draw your attention, Mr. Speaker to the fact that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) wanted to ask a supplementary question a minute or two ago? Would you be good enough to provide him with the opportunity of doing so?
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is the first time for a long time that we have had a bogus point of order. I hope that we will not have any more of them.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that he and his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) are now indulging in the slander by innuendo which the right hon. Gentleman was decrying so strongly a few minutes ago, and that this is typical of the Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) referred to a decision by the right hon. Gentleman to entertain a particular Right-wing French politician. That, of course, was a matter within the discretion of the right hon. Gentleman. All that I said—and I made no innuendo —was that it was not for me to comment on it.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Grimond.
Mr. Grimond: On a point of order. If we have now reached the end of these questions, could you give the House some guidance, Mr. Speaker, on two points? First, when is it in order for a Minister to make a personal explanation in the House about a speech made outside the House and having no connection with the House? Secondly, that permission having been granted, and the statement clearly being undiscussable, under what circumstances is it within the rules of order to ask a Private Notice Question which inevitably leads to discussion, because this would seem to defeat the whole Ruling that personal statements made in the House of Commons are not subject to discussion?
Mr. Speaker: On the first point, no hon. or right hon. Member can make a personal statement to the House unless he has submitted it to the Speaker, and unless the Speaker has satisfied himself that it contains nothing controversial or political but is merely an attempt to correct some matter affecting a speech which may have been made either inside or outside the House.
On the second point, this is the difficulty which the House must face. It is the tradition of the House—one of its precious traditions—that when a personal statement is made it is heard in silence and it is heard and accepted without
1598
comment. No hon. or right hon. Member questions, I am certain, any hon. or right hon. Member's integrity, good faith or honour, once a personal statement has been made. However, certain issues of policy may arise around it and the difficulty would be that if one precluded any further comment at any future time on issues which arose out of a personal statement it might be possible for an hon. or right hon. Member, by making a personal statement, to put a ban on some very important matter which the House wanted to discuss. That is the position as I see it.

WESTMINSTER ABBEY (900th ANNIVERSARY SERVICE)
Mr. Speaker: I wish to make a brief statement. I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if I describe briefly what is proposed for tomorrow's special service in Westminster Abbey.
As already resolved, the House will meet for Prayers at 11 o'clock in the morning and after Prayers the Sitting will be suspended until 2·30, but at approximately 11·40 in the morning I shall return to the Chamber in order to go in procession to Westminster Abbey, which we shall enter by the Great West Door and I shall be followed by members from the two Front Benches.
Members other than those of the two Front Benches are requested to take their seats in the North Transept of the Abbey by 11·45 tomorrow morning when they will enter by the North Door.
After the service I shall leave the Abbey followed by the two Front Benches and return to the House. The Sitting will be resumed at 2·30 p.m. and business will proceed in the normal way except that there will be no Prayers in the afternoon.

DISUSED GRAVEYARDS
3.50 p.m.
Mr. John Cordle: I beg to move,
That leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the better use of disused graveyards and burial grounds.
In view of the short time allotted under the Ten Minute Rule, I propose, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, to stick very closely to my notes as I seek to introduce my small Bill. I should like, first, to congratulate the "usual channels" and those responsible for bringing the Ten Minute Rule time back to the afternoon. It is, I think, a move that will be welcomed and applauded. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Many hon. Members have asked that Ten Minute Rule Bills should be taken at this time. I hope that they will listen.
Mr. Cordle: I think that this is a good move which will be welcomed by both sides of the House. As the first hon. Member to have the good fortune to take advantage of this more civilised hour, I hope that it will be a happy augury for the Bill I seek to introduce.
One of the most difficult problems facing us today is shortage of living space. Statistically, the actual amount of land developed is only about one-eighth of the total land available, but that is a very false figure since, rightly or wrongly, most people do not wish to live in the middle of Dartmoor, or the Highlands of Scotland, but prefer to reside and work in the same areas as everyone else. In consequence, there are the enormous pressures on land for housing, roads, schools, hospitals and all the other manifestations of civilised living which are known to every one of us and are growing year by year.
Modern planning and architecture are constantly making better use of the land available and cramming a quart into a pint pot.—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must appeal to the House again. This, I understand, is an experiment. I hope that the House will listen to the hon. Member who is seeking to introduce his Bill.
Mr. Cordle: As I was saying, modern planning and architecture are constantly
1600
making better use of the land available and cramming a quart into a pint pot without seeming to do so. But, just as it is prudent and sensible to make the best use of the land we have, so I believe it is also prudent and sensible to make sure that land which could be used for specified socially desirable purposes is not sterilised because of archaic laws or out of misplaced sense of reverence.
There are many thousands of acres of disused graveyards and burial grounds up and down the country. Many of them are situated in the poorer residential districts of our great towns and cities. No one has been buried in them for years. Usually, any remaining links between those who are buried there and their surviving friends or relatives have long since disappeared. They are untidy, overgrown, an eyesore, and, I believe that, in their present state, they now have no Christian or aesthetic value whatsoever.
The legal position covering such graveyards is complicated and obscure. Ownership of many closed burial grounds is often very difficult to establish. Depending upon the length of time the graveyard has not been used, coupled with certain other requirements, the Church or a local authority may develop the ground for certain purposes. However, due to the legal difficulties I have already mentioned and possibly ignorance of what is allowed under the existing law, very little development takes place.
The Bill proposes to free many of the restrictions surrounding disused and closed burial grounds so that they may be developed as open spaces, playgrounds, gardens of rest, and the like. There would be safeguards regarding the length of time between the last burial and the redevelopment of the ground. If the owners were not able to redevelop themselves or could not be traced, then local authorities would be required to act within a given time. Some existing old burial grounds would not be affected since it is already common practice to use them for such purposes as car parks or rest gardens subject to appropriate consents.
The main objection that can be levelled at such a Bill does not lie in the legal problems or complications. These can be overcome. I recognise, however, that there may be a number of very sincere

1601
people who would regard it as sacrilegious or irreverent to disturb the last resting place of those who have died and been accorded a proper funeral. To these people I say just this. We are dealing with the living and those as yet unborn. In many part of our cities open spaces, gardens for the elderly, playgrounds in safety for the young are often not available.
Does it make any kind of sense to have these disused graveyards, often locked up, untended, unvisited, which could cheaply and quickly be used for a really worthwhile purpose? Before passing judgment, we should ask ourselves what would the wishes be of those people who have passed on and have lain in such graveyards for many years. I think that there can be only one answer. Legislate for the living, not for the dead.
The view of the Churches is extremely important since, in many cases, they may be the owners of the disused graveyard— [Interruption.]
Mr. Victor Goodhew (St. Albans): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not possible for those of us who wish to listen to my hon. Friend giving an account of his proposed Bill to listen to him in peace and quiet without having all this noise led from the Treasury Bench?
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for reinforcing the appeal I have made.
Mr. Thomas Steele: Further to that point of order. Is not the experience we are having this afternoon reinforcing the opinion of—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that we should interrupt a speech under the Ten Minute Rule to discuss what I think the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) has in mind.
Mr. Cordle: I am very grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, and to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) for his intervention.
1602
The view of the Churches is extremely important since, in many cases, they may be the owners of the disused graveyard and, anyway, they will certainly be concerned with any change in use from both a theological and practical standpoint. I understand that the Churches are, broadly, sympathetic with the aims of my proposed Bill. They would welcome an extension of the power to use disused burial grounds after a reasonable period and they would also welcome a widening of the factors upon which burial grounds could be closed. I am very grateful to Sir Griffith Williams, Secretary of the Churches Main Committee, and his staff, for the sympathy and encouragement they have given to me in this matter.
We are spending prodigious amounts of money, quite rightly, on new towns and slum clearance. The rotting centres of many of our old towns and cities are being replaced by gleaming new flats and office blocks. Yet we all know that many people for many years to come will be born and grow up in districts where open space probably means a wilderness of rubble or a second-hand car sales site and where a park or garden of rest is either a bad joke or a long and relatively dangerous journey to another part of the town.
If my Bill could only help a small proportion of these people I feel that it would be infinitely worth while.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. John Cordle, Mr. Hugh Fraser, Sir George Sinclair, Mr. John Tilney, Dame Irene Ward, Mr. Geoffrey Wilson, Mr. Harry Randall, Sir Frederic Bennett, Mr. Robert Cooke, Mr. Joseph Hiley, Mr. Gilbert Longden, and Mr. Michael Alison.

DISUSED GRAVEYARDS
Bill to provide for the better use of disused graveyards and burial grounds, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 22nd July, and to be printed. [Bill 62.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  EMERGENCY POWERS
  Message from Her Majesty [22nd June] considered: —
  The Emergency Powers Act 1920, as amended by the Emergency Powers Act 1964, having enacted that if it appears to Her Majesty that there have occurred or are about to occur events of such a nature as to be calculated, by interfering with the supply and distribution of food, water, fuel or light, or with the means of locomotion, to deprive the community, or any substantial portion of the community, of the essentials of life. Her Majesty may, by Proclamation, declare that a state of emergency exists: and Her Majesty having on the 23rd day of May, 1966, made, in pursuance thereof, a Proclamation declaring that the stoppage of work among merchant seamen did, in Her opinion, constitute a state of emergency within the meaning of the said Act of 1920 as so amended, which Proclamation does not remain in force for more than one month: and the continuance of the said stoppage of work having, in Her Majesty's opinion, constituted such a state of emergency as aforesaid:
  Her Majesty has deemed it proper, by Proclamation dated the 22nd day of June, 1966, and made in pursuance of the said Act of 1920, as so amended, to declare that a state of emergency exists.
  4.2 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty thanking Her Majesty for her Gracious Message communicating to this House that Her Majesty deems it proper by Proclamation, made in pursuance of the Emergency Powers Act 1920, as amended by the Emergency Powers Act 1964, and dated 22nd June, 1966, to declare that a state of emergency exists.
  I understand, Mr. Speaker, that it will be for the convenience of the House if I also speak to the Second Order of the Day, the Motion which asks the House to confirm the Regulations made in consequence of the declaration of the state of Emergency.
  That the Regulations made by Her Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated 22nd June, 1966, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22nd June, shall continue in force, subject however to the provisions of section 2(4) of the said Act.
  Sir, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, who has played so great a part in dealing with the problems associated with the seamen's strike, would have sought to catch your eye this evening to wind up the debate. Unfortunately, my
  1604
  right hon. Friend, who has been under very heavy strain during these weeks, has been advised by his doctor that he must take a rest and he is going away from London for some days. I am sure that the whole House will wish him a speedy recovery. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] In those circumstances, I hope that, if a brief reply to the debate is needed, the House will grant me leave to reply.
  Since the last exchanges in the House about the dispute in the shipping industry, there have been considerable and hopeful moves in the direction of a solution. This debate takes place against the background of the negotiations which have been proceeding today on the appropriate panel of the National Maritime Board, and all of us will hope that these will now come to a successful conclusion. But, as I hope to explain later, even if the strike were to come to an end before this debate is concluded, this would not mean that we can immediately advise the termination of the state of emergency or a withdrawal of the Regulations.
  First, it might be convenient for right hon. and hon. Members if I gave the House a more up-to-date report on the developments aimed at ending the dispute since I last reported to the House on Monday of last week. The House will recall that on that occasion I gave a report of the talks which my right hon. Friend and I had had with representatives of the executive council of the National Union of Seamen and one meeting with the full Council, and also of the meetings that we had had with representatives of the Shipping Federation. Those talks, spread over three days, were aimed at finding a solution based on the interim Report of the Court of Inquiry. That Report, the Government considered, provided the means to a just and honourable solution in the interests of the seamen, of the industry, and of the nation as a whole.
  I said then that we did not stand on every dot and comma of the Report, but I said that, if there were to be any departure from the Report, any further improvement should be paid for by real economies in working agreed between the parties, effective economies, not pious aspirations about increased productivity or reduced costs. Although at that time the National Union of Seamen did not

  1605
  state that it was prepared to accept the Pearson recommendations of a two-stage introduction of the 40-hour week, which was the union's main objective, it was clear that the problem which was in the minds not only of the Executive Council, but of seamen all over the country, and which was impeding a solution, was the question of leave arrangements. This was because the Court of Inquiry, in order to provide partial compensation for the cost of the progress towards a 40-hour week, had recommended that the number of days leave with pay in respect of days spent at sea, which have recently been averaging about 51 a year, should be reduced to 39. There was and is no doubt that this was the problem preventing a settlement.
  The House will recall that it had been urged upon us that a reduction in overtime over and above that which was envisaged in the Report to take effect a year from now could provide sufficient savings in cost to compensate for the seamen's proposal that the leave arrangements should continue as in recent years and not: be reduced as the Court recommended. As the House knows, when this was put to the owners by my right hon. Friend and myself it was rejected. Nor could the owners, when challenged to do so, suggest then any significant changes in working practices or in any other way which could provide the saving necessary for helping to solve the problem of leave arrangements.
  As the House will recall, my right hon. Friend and I were successful in bringing the shipowners and representatives of the seamen's executive together at Downing Street to see whether this problem could be solved. Unfortunately, the leaders on both sides had to report to us that they had entirely failed to make any progress. It was then, in these circumstances, that my right hon. Friend and I—I am now talking about the situation a week last Friday—addressed the full executive and put to it, as we had to its representatives, our proposal that, since there did not seem to be any immediate prospect of agreement on what we called copper-bottomed guarantees of reduced costs, the Court of Inquiry should be asked as a matter of urgency, in dealing with that part of its terms of reference relating to productivity, to examine all the suggestions which had been made, including reductions in overtime, standards of
  1606
  manning, more flexible use of crews as between deck and engine room, and so on, and to report whether adequate savings could be ensured. Meanwhile, we suggested that the union, while accepting the Court of Inquiry's first Report, reserved its position on the question of leave arrangements, which could then be settled satisfactorily in due course on the basis of the productivity inquiry by the Court.
  My right hon. Friend and I warned the executive that, though there had been and still was great sympathy in the country for the seamen's case, that sympathy was being rapidly eroded, if not destroyed, by their repeated and brusque rejections of every proposal made to help in finding a solution. We stressed the damage, actual and potential, to the economic life of the nation. We stressed equally the damage, which could well be lasting to the shipping industry and to the future security of those who sought and would hereafter seek employment in the industry.
  Nevertheless, when the executive had returned to its headquarters it voted speedily, and again unanimously, for the continuation of the strike. The unfailing unanimity of the executive's decisions on this and on previous occasions is a factor to which attention has been called on a number of occasions recently; and I shall be returning to this point later.
  It was following these events that I reported to the House eight days ago. The House well recognises, I think, that we could not leave the matter to rest there. There will be those who will argue that it is the Government's duty to remain outside a battle of this kind, to let natural forces take their course, and to wait until exhaustion—physical, mental, spiritual or financial—exerts its toll. There will certainly be those who feel that we have acted in an unprecedented way by setting up a court of inquiry while the strike was on, instead of insisting on a return to work. I agree that this is unprecedented, but so are the circumstances of this dispute. The whole House has shown the deep concern it feels about the growing damage to our economy with every day that this strike continues.
  In these circumstances, my right hon. Friend and I felt it right last week to go into the question of still further initiatives. As the House knows, we had a

  1607
  long discussion with the members of the Finance and General Purposes Committee of the T.U.C. The House well knows the patience and skill with which the Finance and General Purposes Committee and the General Council itself, and, in particular, Mr. George Woodcock, the General Secretary, have sought at every point in this dispute to open up the possibility of new initiatives and to try to break the log jam which at times seemed immovable. It was they who made it clear to the N.U.S. that the Pearson Report should have been accepted and that the union could not look to organised labour in this country for any spreading of the strike.
  When my right hon. Friend and I met the Finance and General Purposes Committee, last Wednesday, it agreed with us that Lord Pearson, who, even in so short a time, had earned a unique position with both sides of the industry and who was willing to offer his services in helping to find a solution two days ago should chair a meeting between the two sides, and the T.U.C. were successful in persuading the executive to accept this proposal. The Shipping Federation similarly agreed to join in these discussions.
  Thanks, I believe, to the patience, objectivity and skill which Lord Pearson brought to these discussions, and equally to the evident desire of both sides last Friday to approach these problems in a constructive manner, suggestions were discussed and examined which pointed the way to a possible solution.
  All were conscious that the outstanding problem was that of leave arrangements, and, as a result of suggestions from both sides, concrete proposals were made to secure real and effective economies in working, sufficient to provide a substantial easement in the proposed reduction of leave days, without adding measurably to the cost of the original Pearson proposals.
  As the House will know, the executive council on Saturday accepted these proposals as a basis for negotiations, and those negotiations have been proceeding today. I know that the whole House will trust that these will be successful, and that there will be a speedy return to work.
  1608
  Even if agreement had been reached, if that had been possible a day or two ago, it would still have been necessary to commend these Regulations to the House. The House will be well aware that the problems of congestion in the ports are only just beginning. There are 518 ships engaged in the home and short-sea trade and 373 ships engaged on the ocean going trades which are at present immobilised. Very many of these are moored away from the berths, and in many ports there will be the most difficult problems in ensuring that the ships are enabled to return to berth in an orderly manner to load up with the nation's accumulation of exports and get away. For this reason it may be necesary to keep the Port Emergency Committees in being, with power to regulate shipping in ports.
  The ending of the dispute, if this occurs, may not mean immediate relief to those parts of these islands which have suffered most by the events of the past six weeks, and emergency arrangements will still be needed. Urgent action will have to be taken to build up stocks of essential commodities, particularly to catch up with the summer stock building programme for coal at power stations, gas works and other public utilities. But, clearly, the Government would hope that if the House agrees to the continuance of these Regulations today, an early ending of the strike would mean that the Proclamation could then be revoked and the Regulations lapse at the earliest possible moment.
  While all our thoughts and hopes will be concentrated on the negotiations which are now proceeding, it is not too early to begin to consider some lessons of the dispute. The House will, in any case, expect me to speak more fully about some of the issues which I raised in my statement eight days ago. I have referred to actions taken by the Government which were unprecedented in dealing with previous disputes, and I said that in many respects this strike had unusual and even unprecedented characteristics.
  This is an industry which, apart from the very special problems which developed on Merseyside and certain other ports six years ago, has been virtually strike-free for many years, but as I have said on many occasions inside

  1609
  the House, and even more directly to representatives of both sides of the industry, this strike has no single, simple cause. It is the result of the accumulation over many years of grievances and frustrations which—and all of us share the responsibility here—the nation should never have allowed to develop.
  I have referred to the fact that for many years a large part of the membership of the union increasingly felt that the union was not discharging its responsibilities to the seamen collectively or individually, as those of us who have the honour to represent a considerable number of seagoing constituents well know. In consequence, these grievances and frustrations were allowed to remain, to grow, to fester, and, at a heavy cost to the nation, to suppurate. The feelings engendered by the operations of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, an Act which was passed three years before Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, are part—and, I believe, a considerable part —of the cause of the dispute, but not the whole of the cause.
  One thing that the seamen can feel has come out of the recent concentration of national attention on their problems is the fact that the Court of Inquiry— and this was offered them before the strike began—has full power to inquire into the problems caused by this barnacle-encrusted legislation and to make urgent recommendations for modernisation. Indeed, as I told the House, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has been in discussion with both sides of the industry about the reforms which are necessary, but these discussions, in common with so much else in this industry, became a casualty of the clash between the two sides that developed a few months ago.
  Another lesson from the dispute is a fact which emerges from the Report of the Court of Inquiry that a great deal is amiss in the efficiency with which this industry is conducted. When, across the table, we have discussed the possibility of reducing by one or two hours the overtime which men in this industry are asked to work, we are doing this against an average working week of 66 hours on the deep-sea trade and 73 hours on the short-sea trade. It is clear that the Court of Inquiry considered that, in comparison
  1610
  with the working practices of the shipping industries of other countries, these figures are inordinately high, and I think that they would be generally regarded by the House as excessive.
  When, at the same time, it is clear that the earnings of British seamen fall below those of many of their foreign counterparts, one is bound to have grave reservations about the efficiency of the industry taken as a whole. When I asked the owners if they could think of any working practices whose removal might be thrown into the balance in these negotiations, I was told that there were, with only marginal and localised exceptions, no restrictive practices in the industry, and that they could not think of anything which would guarantee even so marginal an increase in productivity—
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: Is the Prime Minister prepared to concede that the efficiency of the shipping industry depends as much on the application of restrictive practices in the docks as in the industry itself?
  The Prime Minister: One cannot separate the shipping industry from the rest of the transport industry. This is a point on which I may have some words to say later. In fact, it is a considered view of the Court of Inquiry both that earnings are lower in the British industry and that the rate of overtime is higher, and I think that it would conclude from this—certainly I should, prima facie — that there is a case for inquiry into the efficiency of an industry where that is true compared with similar industries overseas.
  One of the difficulties about securing guaranteed improvements in productivity was the pathetic admission of the Shipping Federation that it could not speak for all its members, not only for the legitimate reason that the ships of Britain's Merchant Navy covered so wide a range of types of trades and occupations, but also because it had to speak for 400 individual companies with an average of only about six ships per company, varying from the great shipping lines which are big enough and competent enough to be moving forward rapidly with modernisation and improved productivity, as some of them are, to a great number of smaller businesses of very varying efficiency. For this reason, the Government have decided now, following the action which

  1611
  we took with the Geddes inquiry into shipbuilding, and the Plowden Report on the aircraft industry, to set up as a matter of urgency an independent inquiry into the structure, organisation and efficiency of the industry.
  The third lesson must relate to the organisation of the union and the problems presented in terms of industrial democracy. I have said more than once during the past few weeks when reporting to the House that one of the problems in this dispute is the new-found militancy of the union. On consituency as well as on national grounds, I rejoice in the fact that this union has become, in recent years, more vigorous, and when I referred to it last week as a sturdy union I meant it.
  No hon. Member will underrate the difficulties of organisation, particularly democratic organisation, in a union catering for seamen. At any moment of time, by far the great majority of its members are scattered over the seven oceans. Even today, after more than six weeks of the strike, when every seaman returning to these shores has left his ship, only 26,000 out of the 65,000 sea-going members of the union are on strike.
  The difficulties of communication are of a dimension different from those experienced in any other trade union, for example, in manufacturing or one of the service industries. This is shown by the fact, for instance, that when, under the constitution of the union, ballots have to be held to elect the executive council, these ballots inevitably do not extend to the majority of seamen, namely, those who are out at sea and out of touch. The present executive council was elected —I am not saying this in a critical sense, but just to show the difficulties of communication—by only 5,000 of the 65,000 members. Only in the case of the election of a General Secretary does the constitution provide for a ballot of all the members, and under the constitution six months are allowed for this process.
  These considerations are, perhaps, relevant to the suggestions put forward in the House eight days ago, suggestions which we ourselves have considered as a possible and obvious procedure, that a ballot of the members should be held about a return to work. It is because the union's membership at any moment
  1612
  of time is so widely scattered that those members of the union who are engaged on the cross-Channel and short-sea trades, in localised port operations or in the coast-wise trade inevitably predominate in the democratic organisation of the union.
  While it is sometimes said that they account for a considerable proportion of the active and militant members, it is equally true that on these, in the main weekly-paid, members the sacrifice and the burden of the strike has so largely fallen. They are only too conscious that they will have lost in the past six weeks, in most cases, well over £100 in earnings, and in many cases of high seasonal activity far more than that, while the majority of the union's members, for whose interests they are fighting, are still at sea and at any time, a week, a month or two months from now, will be returning to Britain with the accumulated earnings of a long voyage.
  It is, therefore, easier to criticise this union than it is to suggest any means by which it could be made more fully representative of its members. I felt it right to say this before coming to some of the facts which I think it necessary to lay before the House. These two facts I have just mentioned, the recent efforts to give the rank and file an effective say in the affairs of the union—democracy is a very recent growth—combined with the difficulty of making democracy truly effective—it is these two facts no less than the long accumulation of unrighted grievances which lie behind the problem to which I drew attention in my statement eight days ago. For, as I made clear then, superimposed on all these difficulties which I have just outlined, there is the further problem to which I now turn.
  I begin with what has never been challenged, that there are no Communists on the executive council of this union and that the number of Communists among the membership of the union is extremely small. I doubt that they would be capable of manning more than one or two picket lines. We must be extremely careful, as I have always been, in approaching this problem to distinguish between external influences and the very real feelings of tens of thousands of union members that they have had a raw deal over so many years in the past. To be

  1613
  militant in this or in any other union is not a matter for reproach, perhaps least of all in this union. If the processes of industrial democracy, with all the difficulties I have mentioned confronting democracy in this union, lead to a militant approach, I, for one, would not complain.
  What we have to do is to distinguish between the genuine grievances and the genuine expression of those grievances, whether by rank and file or by elected representatives at all levels, on the one hand, and deliberate exploitation of those grievances by outside influences, on the other. Again, it would be wrong to suggest, and I shall not suggest, that members of the Communist Party—I think particularly of some dedicated Communist seamen—are not deeply concerned about these grievances and about the problems which have to be settled.
  There was and is no question of my impugning the integrity of the executive council. What I was referring to in my statement eight days ago, which was borne out by the whole history of the executive council's proceedings up to that time, was not any lack of integrity, but its lack of "guts".
  The House will be aware that the Communist Party, unlike the major political parties, has at its disposal an efficient and disciplined industrial apparatus controlled from Communist Party headquarters. No major strike occurs anywhere in this country in any sector of industry in which that apparatus fails to concern itself. In special cases it has been seen at work, for example, in the Electrical Trades Union, where it made a successful take-over bid if not for the share capital at any rate for the management of the union, lasting for some years. No other political party is organised on these lines.
  It may be because of the political impotence of the Communist Party that it has sought expression in industrial organisation. But hon. Members would delude themselves if they imagined that there was not a most efficient organisation on the industrial side, that it has not got full-time officers ready to operate in any situation where industrial troubles are developing. Equally, we would underestimate its power if we did not recognise that, however misguided we may consider
  1614
  Communists' objectives or methods, in their own way they desire to see an improvement in working-class standards. They would not be effective if this were not so.
  There is one other thing I want to make clear. None of this is in any way illegal. In a free society—it might be different in a Communist society—they have the legal right to do it. I have no evidence at all that, in pursuance of these aims, so far as the seamen's strike is concerned, they have committed any individual acts of illegality. I should make clear, equally, that there is no suggestion of any interference in this strike from overseas. Whatever has been done is indigenous in character and it is rooted in our own doctrines of freedom of association and action.
  But if those who act in the way I am going to describe are within their legal rights—I take it that, whatever recommendations the Royal Commission may make, none of us would wish to curtail the basic legal rights of freedom of speech and action in this democracy—equally, those of us who regard their activities as harmful have our rights, including the right to take such action as we may think appropriate.
  I have had to think a great deal about this in recent weeks, and my statement of eight days ago was not made without a great deal of anxious consideration. Some of us, owing to the position we hold, have not only an equal right to take any action within our power to ensure that these activities are known and understood for what they are, but we have a duty to exercise that right. Otherwise, I would not have spoken as I did or as I now intend to speak.
  For some years, the Communist Party has had as one of its objectives the building up of a position of strength not only in the Seamen's Union, but in other unions concerned with docks and transport. It engages in the struggle for power in the Seamen's Union because it recognises the facts which I have outlined to the House not only that democracy is shallow-rooted in this union, not only that grievances and exploitation have festered for so many years, but that the very nature of sea-going employment makes infiltration from outside easier than in most other industries.

  1615
  The bid that the Communists are making is directed to next year's conference at which the rules can be changed and at which steps can be taken also to change the full-time officers. In this union, for the reasons I have given, the full-time officers have an unusual degree of power to influence the conduct of the union's activities, even if this power has not been very much exercised of late. This is a take-over bid, and take-over bidders on all sides of industry are notorious for their single-mindedness and their ruthlessness. The whole formidable power of the Communist Party's industrial apparatus has for some time been directed towards this end, and the seamen's strike, with all its background of justification for industrial action, has provided the ground.
  What I am saying has been known for some time. A seaman who played a leading part in the localised strikes of 1960 on Merseyside and elsewhere, and who was himself a former chairman of the National Seamen's Reform Movement and got a little disillusioned with some of the things he saw, made a long statement in the January, 1965, issue of the Seaman setting out the way in which this takeover bid was being organised.
  Having given details—and I commend the statement to right hon. and hon. Members to read—of what was being done on the North-East Coast and in the Mersey area, he summed up by saying:
  "Thus the Communists are in a position to use the movement for their own purposes; and all British seamen know what this means. In particular Gordon Norris and some well-known Communists on the North-East coast are going round all ports to ensure that the Communist Party keeps a firm grip on the movement."
  In this long and factual statement, he advised his fellow members of the N.U.S. to counter what he called these
  "… very small groups of active Communists who are working for their own interests and those of the Communist Party."
  I said that I would give the facts as soon as they became known. The Communist Party's industrial organiser is Mr. Bert Ramelson, who, in January, succeeded Mr. Peter Kerrigan. He has three full-time officials on his staff and in the London area, where the docks provide his hunting ground, his principal lieutenant is Mr. Dennis Goodwin. Round this full-time nucleus has been gathered a small group of active trade unionists in the N.U.S. and other trade unions.
  1616
  I have referred to the numerical weakness of the Communists in the N.U.S. Yet, despite this, as soon as the strike began, they were successful in ensuring that the chairmanships of the strike committees in the country's two major ports, London and Liverpool, were taken by two Communists, Mr. Jack Coward and Mr. Roger Woods. Again, in the union's negotiating machinery, a leading member of the negotiating committee, not himself a member of the executive council, who was elected from the floor at the annual general conference, was also a highly articulate and effective Communist, Mr. Gordon Norris, who, in certain of his activities, has operated under the name of George Goodman.
  The objectives of the Communist Party in this dispute were, first, to influence the day-to-day policy of the executive council; secondly, to extend the area of the stoppage; and, thirdly, to use the strike not only to improve the conditions of seamen—in which I believe them to be genuine—but also to secure what is at present the main political and industrial objective of the Communist Party—the destruction of the Government's prices and incomes policy.
  First, let me deal with the organisation of the union and the strike. I have referred to the Communists' success in capturing two of the major strike committees. They are also effectively represented in other areas. When Mr. Norris, who has not paused for breath during the last six weeks, visited Glasgow, he made it his business to contact certain members of the strike committee, but omitted to contact the secretary, who happened to be an efficient and loyal member of the union. The same thing, according to newspaper reports, happened in Belfast. At various stages since the strike began, these individuals I have mentioned have met to decide their policy and have sought, through whatever means have been open to them, to influence the executive council.
  As I have said, they started with the disadvantage of having no Communists among the members of the executive council. They had to operate through any who were responsive to their suggestions, including a circle of members whose conception of the strike made them amenable to the type of proposals the Communist Party was advocating.

  1617
  I have referred to the difficulties of industrial democracy in elections to the executive council. One must recognise effects of the history of the union in the inexperience of many members. The political and industrial inexperience of some of the members of the executive council, which we would not find in most of our other unions because of their day-to-day political and industrial contacts, has meant that a small group of articulate, intelligent and well-briefed members could exercise influence far beyond their number.
  If I refer to Mr. Joseph Kenny and Mr. James Slater, neither of them a member of the Communist Party, I must acknowledge their political and argumentative skill. I have had five meetings with the executive council, or with committees appointed by that council, and I can testify to their ability and to their mastery of the details of the seamen's complaints, to their ability to absorb skilled briefing and to their dominance amongst their colleagues.
  They live in Liverpool and South Shields respectively and over the past few weeks, when attending the executive council in London, they have stayed at the same flat as Mr. Jack Coward. Of course, they are free to stay where they like, but Mr. Ramelson has visited the flat when they were there and Mr. Norris has been in constant touch with them. They have been in continual contact with Mr. Ramelson and Mr. Norris.
  I need no evidence, other than my eyes and ears, to recognise that these two have dominated the executive council throughout the negotiations. Again, they were predominant in the executive council's brusque and unanimous rejection of the appeal my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and I made to the executive council a week last Friday.
  The House may well ask how influences of this kind even exercised through a small number of highly articulate and experienced members of the executive, could have so long secured acceptance, unanimously and almost without rebuttal, from a council of 48 members. But, first, let us recognise that the views which the militant members of the council were expressing fell on fertile ground because all their colleagues were aware of the strong feelings of the sea-going community. And let none of us under-
  1618
  rate the extent to which moderate members of (the council, no less militant in their objectives than their militant colleagues, would be subject to pressures which any of us would find distasteful and perhaps almost irresistible.
  All of us are used to hecklers, but the treatment anyone who, during the past six weeks, advocated a return to work on almost any terms would have received from strike committees—and some of them did and from picket lines outside union headquarters—and the more vociferous members of strike meetings, would have daunted many of us. I had it in Liverpool 10 days ago and, like many right hon. and hon. Members, I am an old hand. But it was not pleasant and those who, through the history and organisation of this union are less experienced than we, might find this treatment almost intolerable.
  An article in The Guardian last Saturday indicated the pressures to which any moderate member might be subjected in his strike committee, in his home port and—let us not under-rate this—in the treatment he might receive when he returned to his ship. The article referred to the fact that at many of these meetings can be recognised
  "… men who are not in the N.U.S., but are members of other unions …"
  and that
  "Their aim—and an organised pattern is discerned here—is to keep the temperature of meetings running high to inflame the legitimate grievances of seamen by intervening with abrasive slogans shouted at appropriate moments."
  All of us who know the great seaports know how true this is. I would commend to right hon. and hon. Members all the evidence produced in some of those newspaper reports—the telephone calls to branches, the organisation of brutal slogans, placards, interjections, the implications and suggestions, whether on the executive or at strike committees or at any other level—and this certainly took place—that anyone who advocated negotiations up to a few days ago was a traitor to the men who elected him and a marked man at the next election. These things were being said and we know that this is true.
  The members of this union are not, in the main, armchair warriors in the industrial struggle. They are sea-going

  1619
  mariners and there is no more tightly-knit community than a ship. From a ship there is no escape. There is no happier hunting-ground for the sea-lawyers, who could make the life of any man a misery who had been marked out as a blackleg even for exercising his democratic duties as a member of an elected body, than a ship on the high seas.
  Time and again in this dispute the Communist Party's objectives have rapidly become the policy of the executive. This is particularly true in relation to the determination of the party to spread the strike. This was also the policy of the N.U.S. It was not the policy of the T.U.C. or of any of the other unions affiliated to the T.U.C. When the state of emergency was declared, the Morning Star, whose well-informed articles I do not consider to derive from any process of a priori reasoning on the part of its editorial staff, declared:
  "No self-respecting Trade Unionist will work in co-operation with the Army and Navy."
  and that
  "Every Trade Unionist must rise in solidarity in support of the seamen."
  This was a clear invitation to extend the dispute and, obviously, the most likely area of extension was the docks. This was, in fact, the policy being pursued by Mr. Ramelson and his colleagues. It was not the policy of Mr. Hogarth, who, though his presence at the dock meeting had been announced, knew that, in accordance with the usual rules with which the T.U.C. would be concerned, it would be wrong to appeal to the members of another union—in this case, the Transport and General Workers' Union—except with the approval of the executive committee of that union.
  The policy of extending the dispute was, however, conducted by Mr. Ramelson, Mr. Goodwin and a number of other influential Communists whose influence extended to unions beyond the N.U.S. The most prominent of these was Mr. Harry Watson, the President of the Lightermen's Union, and such well-known figures as Mr. Jack Dash and Mr. Danny Lyons, who are both members of the unofficial liaison committee in the London docks, together, of course, with Mr. Gordon Norris and Mr. Jack Coward
  1620
  representing the seamen. I have referred to Mr. Dash who, as his numerous speeches in the docks indicated, took a more moderate line because he was torn between his loyalty to the party and his loyalty to his union, which was resisting all pressures to take the Communist line.
  Hon. Members will have followed with interest the course of events in the week in which the Pearson Report came out. There is much to suggest that rejection of the interim Report was virtually a fait accompli before the executive had even seen the text of the Report. Inaccurate accounts of what the Court of Inquiry was likely to recommend were circulating among the Press on the night of Tuesday, 7th June, and were almost certainly known to some of those I have mentioned. On the Wednesday morning, the executive received the text of the Report and rejected it, with its then customary unanimity, with the most perfunctory discussion, and with no regard to the broader issues raised by the Report.
  From then on the emphasis was on widening the strike. On 13th June, a meeting of about 1,500 dockers, chaired by Mr. Jack Coward, was held in the London docks and was addressed by Mr. Watson, Mr. Norris, and Mr. Dash, the first two of these with great enthusiasm and the third with lesser enthusiasm, commending a resolution to "black" all British ships in the London docks. But a fourth speaker, Mr. Mundy, the official representative of the Transport and General Workers' Union, took the opposite line. In the event, the resolution was carried and two hours of confusion in London's docks followed, while the dockers sought advice from those able and competent to give that advice, namely, their own unions. Because of the resolute advice given by Mr. Mundy on behalf of the Transport and General Workers' Union, despite that resolution, by twelve o'clock the dockers were hard at work on the ships.
  This was a turning point in the history of the strike, but another turning point was the rejection by the International Transport Federation, whose British representatives include all Britain's transport unions—the railway unions, the T. & G., the Merchant Navy Officers' Association, as well as the N.U.S., of the N.U.S.

  1621
  request that the Federation should call on foreign seamen's unions to take corresponding action to prevent the movement to Britain of foreign-owned ships. The last hope of those who sought to extend the strike, to extend the damage to Britain's economy, let alone to bring the nation and the Government to a state of surrender, was, in fact, the meeting two days ago of the management committee of the International Transport Federation where, although an appeal for financial help was approved, moves to extend the strike were finally buried.
  Once 13th June had passed, the emphasis shifted to the talks which my right hon. Friend and I had with the unions and the employers. I believe that the union made a great mistake, particularly in terms of its appeal to the nation, in rejecting the Report of the Court of Inquiry. Pretty quickly after that rejection the extent of this mistake was realised, I think, and not only in union circles. I believe that there was a widespread recognition that this strike had reached the point of diminishing returns, not only in terms of the support of the rank and file, but in terms of what it was likely to achieve with each succeeding week of unemployment and hardship for N.U.S. members.
  The purpose which my right hon. Friend and I had in mind was to see whether there was a way to meet the concern of the seamen about the question of leave arrangements—at no additional cost beyond what was contemplated by the court of inquiry and at no additional cost in terms of a national incomes and prices policy. But political rather than industrial counsels won the day. What my right hon. Friend and I sought to achieve, what we outlined in our appeal to the executive, again met the most brusque of rejections. This may have been connected with the intense and active canvassing of a substantial number of council members on the night of Thursday, 16th June. However that may be, that rejection of our appeal, which followed the most persuasive table banging by the leading militants on the executive council, was decisive and, as I have said, unanimous.
  These are the circumstances in which I reported to the House on 20th June I think that there were those who thought that when I spoke frankly to
  1622
  the House about some of the influences operating on the union I would set up resistances which might prolong the strike. I can understand this feeling, which was expressed in the House. The danger that it might be a consequence of my action was naturally one of the possible consequences which I had to weigh most anxiously. In fact, I believe that the fact that for the first time last Thursday the moderate members of the executive took their courage into their hands and voted against the strongly-pressed advice of their most militant colleagues, suggested that I was not ill advised.
  I think—and I am not saying this without good reason—that a large proportion of the executive, almost certainly a majority, on the previous Friday, if they had voted according to their considered opinions, would have voted for a return to work, or at least a return to negotiation on the basis of what my right hon. Friend and I had said to them. I believe that one result of what I said last Monday is that the moderates have become articulate, and that in so doing they represent the views of the majority of the rank and file members of the union, particularly those who have —and I pay every tribute to them— suffered great hardships for the cause in which they believe.
  I know that there will be those who will say that it is not the duty of the Government or of anyone who holds the responsibilities that I hold, to be concerned with such matters, that our duty is to remain aloof. Having regard to the great economic dangers to the nation, in the determined battle which we are fighting for economic solvency, and the facts, mentioned by hon. Members on both sides of the House, about the effects, and long-term effects, on our export trade, I feel that it was my duty to take this action if it seemed directed towards speeding the end of the dispute.
  They are wrong who believe that what I did then or what I have done today is an attack on militant trade unionism. Having regard to the history of this union and to the grievances which I and so many hon. Members consider to be deeply felt by seamen in every port of Britain, I could not conscientiously deny this union, nor would I want to, the right to pursue its case as vigorously as seems right to it. It is an inevitable

  1623
  reaction from the union's past, but we have the right to ask that militancy should depend upon the representation of the democratic views of the union's members, and should not be artificially exploited by those whose motives, while partly directed to the seamen's interests, are also inspired by a desire to secure power within the union, and at the same time, more widely, to destroy a policy, which is the policy of Her Majesty's Government, on prices and incomes and which the House will shortly be asked to ratify.
  Mr. Hogarth is reported as having said that this dispute is not fundamentally about hours or pay, but about a struggle for power within the union. It is, in fact, about both. But in so far as this strike has been artificially prolonged because of this power struggle, I believe that it was my duty to speak out.
  After this strike is over, no doubt many hon. Members will be considering its lessons in terms of the general policy so far as the nation, on the one hand, and the rights of trade unionism, on the other, are concerned. I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite hold sincere views about the way in which these matters can be regulated, and in particular, about the way in which these problems could be dealt with by simple changes in the law.
  As I have already told the House, after my experience of the most intimate and detailed discussions with 48 men representing, as they did, 65,000 members who consider themselves pushed almost beyond the bounds of endurance, I feel that in this case certainly, we are dealing not with a simple legalistic matter, but with issues going to the very frontiers of human relations. My right hon. Friend, in one of the controversies which arose on these issues, some weeks ago, said that industrial relations were human relations. I believe that he was right, and to be fair, I believe that he was quoting some words of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, when he was Minister of Labour.
  This is not the moment to anticipate the findings of the Royal Commission which will be concerned with legal and constitutional matters, but also with a problem of human relations. And they will be wrong who seek from this unique
  1624
  chapter in the history of industrial relations in this country to proceed to oversimplify and draw hasty conclusions, however plausible they might appear. Rather should they be left, I think, to the combined wisdom of the members of the Royal Commission on which, ultimately, the House, and indeed the country, will pronounce the final verdict.
  Before I sit down, I must refer to one issue about the responsibilities of the House and of any Member of the House, on whatever side he may sit, and be he Minister or backbencher. Last Saturday, the executive council of the Seamen's Union indicated its regret about the brief statement which I made last week. It has invited me to make a public statement outside on the lines of what I then said. I have not attacked its integrity, as I have said. There was no question at all of shrinking from a confrontation with the executive about the issues I have raised, because last week I indicated quite clearly to the executive that I was ready to meet with it and discuss what I had said.
  But it has raised the question of Parliamentary privilege and it is right that I should refer to this. Privilege adheres not so much to individual Members of the House as to the House as a whole. It is time-honoured and is essential to the rights of this House. The House can be a guardian of the public interest only to the extent that any hon. Member can feel able to use the privilege that this House traditionally has, and, in the exercise of that privilege, to raise any matter affecting the public interest.
  This applies to every Member of the House, in whatever part of the Chamber he may sit. Some of the classical battles for freedom in this House have been derived from a judicious use of this privilege for every Member who invokes it has a responsibility, recognising that he has the power he has, secure, as he is from the normal process of law. No hon. Member would lightly invoke that privilege, but his first duty must be to the public interest.
  There will always be those who say that no hon. Member should invoke any form of words in this Chamber that he is not prepared to use outside. This is to misunderstand privilege. I am not prepared to be silenced, or to let any

  1625
  other hon. Members be silenced, in any proceeding that they feel right in the public interest, by the fact that the repetition of words used here and outside might lead to legal processes which would have the effect, for a year or perhaps two years, of preventing any comment on the subject, either by that Member or by the Press, or even by the House itself, in discussing these vitally important issues.
  Because, Mr. Deputy Speaker, under the rules which it is the Chair's duty to enforce, once such a legal process is under way, whether it is ultimately proceeded with or not, not only would all public discussion be stifled, but because the issue would be sub judice, discussions even in this House would be stifled and that is why, in the Bill of Rights, nearly three centuries ago, it was laid down
  "That the freedome of speech, and debates or proceedings in Parlyament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parlyament."
  I believe that the issues that have been raised by the question that I have raised this afternoon, by the pressure upon this union, by outside interests, is a matter of vital national interest. As I have said, it was only after the most anxious consideration that I felt it right to put these issues before the House.
  Mr. Stratton Mills Mr. Stratton Mills (Belfast, North) rose —
  The Prime Minister: I will give way in a moment. This House is the custodian not only of personal liberties, but of the wider national interest and that interest would remain unheard if any one of us, whatever our individual responsibilities to this House, felt that we were not free to raise matters of great national import except under conditions which had allowed those in our view who are working against the higher interests of the nation to stifle public and Parliamentary discussion.
  I hope that what I have said today will justify this thought, that as Members of the House, we have not only rights, we also have duties. And in the exercise of those rights and duties, it is incumbent upon every one of us to give to the House any information necessary to promote and further the national interest. For if there are actions being undertaken, whether, as in some past cases, by the Executive, or, as in the present case, by
  1626
  any private organisation which any of us considers harmful to the public interest, this House is the place where these actions should be brought under public scrutiny.
  If—as with the operations that I have described, even though they derive from reasons which seem good to their authors and even though, as I have said, they involve no contradiction or breach of the law—if in the nature of things such operations are largely conducted away from the public gaze, it is the duty of any of us having this knowledge to bring them into the light.
  This House can perform its ancient functions only on the basis that we are free to speak freely in this House.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: The right hon. Gentleman has carried the House with him in his last few remarks, but he has based his main case upon newspaper reports and upon a general supposition based upon his own arguments. Is it his intention, before sitting down, to give some more firm evidence to the House to substantiate these very serious allegations?
  The Prime Minister: I have based none of my case, or my facts, on newspaper reports, except on the one occasion when I referred to visits by one of the leading Communist officials to Northern Ireland. That was the only newspaper report on which I based what I have said.
  For the rest, I referred hon. Members, and I see no reason why I should not, to an article in The Guardian last Saturday, which explained, at greater length than it would be right for me now to go into, exactly what is the answer to this problem, which I think has puzzled all of us, of how it is that a small number of men can get a lot of others to vote with them in this way. The article I quoted— [Laughter.] I think that this is a very serious matter that we are debating. The article that I quoted gave a lot of reasons how intimidation, not illegal intimidation, but intimidation, is organised, and how this can become effective in allowing a small number of active organisers in this way to terrify or terrorise others from voting in a particular way.
  In asking the House to approve this Address in Reply, and to approve the Regulations, I hope that we will all feel that we are all debating not only what is necessarily, and from the point of view of

  1627
  all of us, inevitably, in a personal sense, painful consequences of this dispute, but that we are ready to learn the lessons and ready to assert the duties as well as the rights and privileges of membership of this House. It is only in that spirit that I have addressed the House in the terms that I have, after very deep thought, chosen to adopt this afternoon.
  4.57 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Heath: We on this side of the House greatly regret the absence of the Minister of Labour from this debate today and are immensely sorry about the reason for it. We all know the strain under which he has been working and the heavy responsibilities which he has been bearing during these last few weeks. The whole House has an immense respect for the right hon. Gentleman and I join with the Prime Minister in hoping that he will make a speedy recovery to full health.
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Heath: I would ask the Prime Minister that during the absence of the right hon. Gentleman he should place a senior Minister in charge of the Ministry of Labour. Much as we admire the ability and charm of the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary, nevertheless, in a difficult period such as this, it is desirable that a senior Minister should be placed in charge of the Department. I do not believe that in industrial matters it is right that the Prime Minister, however willing he is, should handle the details of a dispute of this kind at all levels. He is, after all, in the political sphere, the ultimate court of appeal and the ultimate means of persuasion.
  In these circumstances, it is essential to have a senior Minister who can handle these aspects of such a dispute while it is going on. It is the responsibility of the Prime Minister to decide this matter and I would ask him if he would place a senior Minister in charge.
  The purpose of this debate is to approve the Emergency Regulations. It has become a debate on the whole issue of the strike of the seamen. Perhaps the House will feel the need, after a long speech by the Prime Minister, concentrating to such a large extent on the political influences at work on the union, to get the seamen's
  1628
  dispute into perspective. The strike is now in its seventh week and it is one of the longest and most damaging strikes for many years. I believe that it is the third or fourth longest strike in British history. It is damaging, none the less so, because it appears to have little direct effect upon people's ordinary lives. Overseas, it has certainly made a tremendous impact, as those who have travelled abroad during the Whitsun Recess will know. It has undermined, to a considerable extent, confidence in the delivery of our exports and in the ability of the British shipping industry to perform the services required of it. As a result, countries and individuals tend to turn to other producers and other shippers, and once a change is made it is difficult to regain these customers.
  It is damaging the national interest and our balance of payments to the extent, as I think the National Institute has calculated, of about £20 million a month, which I should have thought was, on the whole, on the conservative side. It is damaging the seamen's interests because there is the risk that, with the loss of trade and shipping services, their own jobs will be diminished. But, above all, I believe that it is making people abroad question whether as a nation we are capable of running our affairs reasonably and responsibly. In the long term, this is the greatest damage which this strike is doing.
  I should like to deal in what I hope will be a very brief speech after the Prime Minister's naturally long description of events, first, with the question of the renewal of the emergency powers; secondly, with the economic and industrial background to the strike; thirdly, with the handling of the dispute itself; and, fourthly, with the pressures on the executive of the National Union of Seamen.
  First, on the emergency powers, let me say straight away that we support the renewal of these Regulations. There is, I think, little more to be said than was said in the first debate on them. We accept the need for the additional powers concerning aircraft. These powers are indeed wide, as has been pointed out, but the Government consider them to be necessary, and we do not quarrel with that in any way. Indeed, our criticism is that the powers which were granted to

  1629
  the Government have not been used in cases where they should have been used.
  We recognise the problem confronting every Government in such a situation as this. It is how to use emergency powers of this kind in the interests of the country without exacerbating still further the feelings of those engaged in the dispute. But once the powers have been granted by Parliament, and granted as they were in this case on a very wide basis without any division of opinion in the Lobbies, then they must be used firmly, otherwise no one will believe that the Government are in earnest either in taking the powers or in their statements.
  I would give as a particular case the interests of the Scottish Islands. The Prime Minister said last Monday that he did not want to use emergency powers until the need arose. But from all the information I have there has been a need for the use of these powers by the Government for the past three weeks to help the situation in the northern islands of the country. The population is bound to suffer because tourism has not been possible during May or June, and there are many cancellations during July.
  At the same time, there are shortages of fuel and of petrol supplies. These are impeding people in getting to work and are, therefore, causing, or are likely to cause, unemployment, particularly in the Harris tweed mills and elsewhere. There are shortages of beverages on many islands. Some of the distilleries are closing down. On Shetland—no doubt the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) will be able to give more details about this—people have been unable to move stock to the mainland.
  To sum up very briefly on this point, the Scottish Office and the Secretary of State for Scotland appear to have made no attempt to deal with these problems by the use of the emergency powers. They have not set up any emergency headquarters. I cannot find any record of a visit by a Scottish Minister to the islands to see for himself exactly what the position is. The Government's administration seems to have broken down or failed the islands entirely. This is a place where, I believe, the emergency powers should have been used speedily and firmly. I can give the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland further details on these points if they
  1630
  want them. I hope that they will use the powers speedily and firmly to meet these needs.
  Secondly, I turn to the economic background to the strike, which is an aspect never mentioned by Government spokesmen. I do not think that it has been mentioned by the Prime Minister in any of his speeches or statements. The real economic background to this dispute is the very large and inflationary wage increases which have taken place since the present Administration came to office. The figures are now well known.
  Taking October, 1964–65, average weekly earnings went up by 7·4 per cent. Since then, they have been running at an annual rate of 9·6 per cent. The last figures available to October last year show that average hourly earnings were running at 10T per cent. It is quite natural that the seamen should have seen some of these wage awards being made and should have drawn their own conclusions from them. These wage increases have been going on despite the incomes policy which the First Secretary of State has carried out, with immense energy. Nobody questions or doubts the devotion which he has put into this policy.
  The second point, which is a psychological point—I want to touch on it only briefly—is that the Government, when they were in opposition, were constantly critical of the incomes policy attempted by the then Government and, in particular, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). It was not really surprising to any impartial observer that when the present Administration came to office the trade unions, naturally, did not expect to be asked to restrain their wages in the way that they have been asked to do.
  If the Prime Minister doubts that, there are many quotations on record— which I have and which I can read to him—of the sort of thing said in opposition by the First Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour. I do not believe for a moment that the trade unions expected to be confronted with the sort of request put forward by the Government. Therefore psychologically, this has added to the atmosphere in which the seamen have pressed their claims.

  1631
  In the recent wage awards, the Government when they have been the employer and, therefore, directly concerned with the incomes policy, have in the ultimate result allowed themselves to be pushed into awards which certainly did not conform with their own incomes policy. Again, the seamen saw this and drew their own conclusions. That is really the economic and psychological background of the dispute. I do not propose to go into the details which the Prime Minister gave about the past problems of the union or about the amendment of the Act. But in the background to all these points there is the present economic situation and the Government's policy.
  I wish to deal, thirdly, and again briefly, with the handling of the strike. When there is an industrial dispute in this country all too seldom it is discussed in the House. While it is on, hon. Members on both sides refrain from pressing the point with the object of trying to do nothing which will deter a settlement. When the strike is over, again both sides of the House are asked not to go over past quarrels, but to let bygones be bygones and concentrate on trying to avoid them in future. This is the first occasion that I can recall during the years that I have been in the House on which there has been a debate which will obviously turn on the handling of the strike as well as the factors involved in it.
  Already, certain questions arise which should be considered, and I will try to put them as generally and as impartially as I can. First, on the inquiry. The question which arises is the timing of it. The decision to strike was taken on 14th April and the strike was to begin on 14th May. The Minister of Labour saw both trade unionists and the employers on 18th April. It was then recorded in the Press that he formed the impression that the union might accept a committee of inquiry, and the employers likewise. But was it offered to them then? I understand that it was not. It was not offered until 7th May, and it was then rejected by the union.
  If the Prime Minister says that the members of the Executive were under these pressures, obviously that interval of three weeks is of considerable importance. If the inquiry had been offered straight away
  1632
  on 18th April, it could have been held and its report made and considered before the strike was due to begin. Therefore, the timing here is very important.
  It is true to say that the union rejected it on 7th May, but when the Pearson Committee was set up on 26th May it was done on the Government's initiative and both sides were informed. The Government could, therefore, have done this at an earlier stage in the dispute. The question is whether there was a misjudgment of the strength of union feeling and of the length of time that the strike was likely to last, or whether the Government wanted to see the dispute settled without having an inquiry if they could avoid it. Those are the questions which arise.
  I come now to the second point which I raised with the Prime Minister. On 13th May, when the right hon. Gentleman intervened in the dispute, he called the union to No. 10, but he did not, I understand, invite the employers. As one who has had to deal with these things, I suggest to the Prime Minister that, tactically and psychologically, one is immediately in difficulties when calling only one side to any group of discussions.
  That also, I believe, played its part in the psychology of the executive. It was followed by the Prime Minister's telecast on the Monday evening, when the right hon. Gentleman was quick to make it clear that this was now a dispute with the Government. It was not a case in which the Government were the employer, it was not similar to the railwaymen or some of the other disputes. It was a dispute between employers and employees. The question therefore immediately arises whether, in any attempt to settle a dispute of this kind, it is right for the Government and for the Prime Minister to make it quite clear that the dispute was with the Government, and in any event to make it so clear at such an early stage.
  The fourth question which arises out of the handling of the strike is this. The Pearson Committee reported on 8th June. The Prime Minister has given his account of the reaction of the executive. The Government were very slow to make their views known. The Prime Minister spoke on 14th June and the Minister of Labour, I think, on Monday, 13th June. They then expressed their belief that the Pearson Report was a fair settlement.

  1633
  If, however, the Government had been able to make their views known at the point of publication of the Pearson Report, they could have said clearly so that the executive and the moderates on the executive would have known that that was the Government's view, the Government having intervened and considered the recommendation of the court of inquiry to be a fair settlement and that it should be accepted as such.
  The Prime Minister: Although the right hon. Gentleman is going into the matter constructively, he has his facts wrong. The same night that the Pearson Report appeared—it was published on the Wednesday—my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour said that it was the right answer and was a fair and honourable settlement. The following day, following a Cabinet meeting, a statement was issued from No. 10 the day after publication of the Report saying the same thing. I would be glad to send the right hon. Gentleman a copy of the statement that the Government as a whole issued the day after the Report was published.
  Mr. Heath: I stand corrected in view of what the Prime Minister has said. The important point remains that the Prime Minister, knowing the pressures which were upon the executive, did not make plain at the point of publication of the Report that the Government believed that the settlement was a fair one and one which ought to be accepted. I believe that this, too, could have helped in a very difficult situation.
  The next question which arises from the handling of the dispute is that the Pearson Report states, at page 16:
  "In our view the Executive Council were not justified in using the strike weapon without further attempts to resolve the position, because there was nothing to call for the use of this very drastic and dangerous remedy."
  That leads one to ask whether we ought to consider the system which exists in the United States and some other countries of a cooling-off period which would have come into operation in exactly such circumstances as these. I do not wish in any way to prejudge the issue, but I think that the Pearson Committee, by making this statement, has put into the arena the question of whether we should have a cooling-off period.
  1634
  The last point which arises both from the handling of the dispute and the Prime Minister's statement today is the question of the sympathetic strike. The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned the activities of Communists and others to bring other unions into the strike. In this country the sympathetic strike is legal. There has always been a dispute legally as to the position of a general strike, but a sympathetic strike has always been legal. The question is now raised as to whether, if influences of that kind are at work, the position ought to remain as it is. I am not in any way prejudging the matter. I merely say that it is one of the substantial questions which arise from the handling of the strike, the Pearson Report and the Prime Minister's statement.
  I do not believe that it is enough to leave these points to the Royal Commission, which has been sitting for 15 months. It has still not received the evidence of the Trades Union Congress. This is a matter for great regret. I know that the Prime Minister does not like to be reminded of his witticism that Royal Commissions take minutes and waste years, but I have a great fear that he will be proved not only witty, but right, on this occasion concerning the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations.
  Therefore, in view of 'the points which have now been raised, I do not believe that it is enough to leave this matter to the Royal Commission, certainly not the Royal Commission in its present form and moving at its present speed. I ask the Prime Minister to look at this whole question again.
  I come, finally, to my fourth series of points: that is, the pressures on the union executive of which the Prime Minister has spoken. He has given a long and full account, and I thank him also for giving to my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet and myself in advance some of the facts which he has given the House today. The House, and certainly those who have ever had to handle these affairs at the Ministry of Labour, will agree that what the Prime Minister has told us today in a general sense is very well known.
  It is very well known to many hon. Members. It is known to former Ministers of Labour. It is known to the

  1635
  industrial correspondents of the newspapers and is widely known in Fleet Street by many others. It is well known that in some unions the position is difficult because there are members of the executive who are members of the Communist Party. It is also known that, where this is not the case, Communists try to influence others in the union.
  It is also known that they try to sway other unions not directly on strike and to influence them in their policy. What is new is that this matter should be raised by a Minister, and in this case the Prime Minister, in the House of Commons. It has never, I believe, been discussed here before. In my period of membership of the House I cannot recall it being raised by a Minister during a strike.
  In its quiet, reflective mood, the House might pause for a moment to think what would have happened if a Conservative Minister of Labour, let alone a Prime Minister, had stood up in the House of Commons and made that part of the statement which the Prime Minister made last Monday and which he has again made today. No hon. Member opposite would challenge the fact that there would have been immediate uproar. Indeed, it would have been led by the Prime Minister himself.
  That is what is new. The matter has not been raised in public before. Last Monday, and today, the Prime Minister has set a precedent for the handling of industrial disputes by bringing forward information of this kind and using it—I do not in any way question his motives —to bring about a settlement of the strike. The point which affected me particularly during the answers to the questions following the Prime Minister's original statement was when he said, on 20th June:
  "My doubt is—and this is not just a question of individual extremists—on the question of how far they"—
  that is, the executive of the National Union of Seamen—
  "are their own masters in taking decisions of this sort."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th June, 1966; Vol. 730, c. 49.]
  That seemed to me to be a strong and important statement, to question whether the executive are masters in taking decisions of this sort. It immediately raises questions not only of influence or
  1636
  of other people's opinions being expressed, but of the actual control of the executive by people outside the executive. If the members of the executive are not their own masters, who are the masters, in which way are they masters and how do they control the executive? I believe that that is the question to which not only the House, but the country, is looking for an answer, because it is a matter of the utmost importance to our industrial life.
  As I said, the Prime Minister has given a very full account of the Communist activities. He has said quite specifically that there is nothing illegal in them. He has also said quite specifically that there is no evidence of any personal illegality. He has also said quite specifically that there is no evidence of any influence from overseas. So the question still remains: exactly in which way is this small body of people, the Communists, the masters of the executive?
  It seems to me that what the Prime Minister was saying was that two gentlemen, Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater, to whom he paid tributes for their debating skill and their power of persuasiveness, argued the executive into the decisions which it took. The Prime Minister gave no evidence of their having any hold over the executive other than to argue it into taking the decisions which it took. He said that there was nothing specifically illegal, and that intimidation would be illegal. So apparently there was no intimidation of an illegal nature, but they out-argued the rest of the executive. How, then, did they have a hold over the executive? That is the question which remains.
  The other question which arises is: as these gentlemen are not Communists themselves, the Prime Minister told us, what hold have the Communist Party over those two gentlemen to make them do the things which made the executive do something because its members were not their own masters?
  It seems to me that those are the fundamental questions which have been raised by the Prime Minister's statement today, and they are questions of the very greatest importance.
  The Prime Minister made his statement last Monday and his speech today in a

  1637
  sense of duty to the national interest. He has told the House so quite clearly and frankly. He believed that the members of the national executive ought to know what is going on if they did not know, and that the public ought to know so that public opinion should be brought to bear on the executive. We in the House can fully understand that. We want public opinion to know if there are political bodies at work in the country using influence behind the scenes in a non-democratic way, even if it is not illegal, and we want trade union executives to be able to make decisions in the light of the fullest knowledge.
  At the same time, everyone in the House will agree that there are also individual rights and interests and collective rights and interests—in this case, the executive of the union which has to be fully considered and safeguarded. It is not only that we are concerned with the national interest, the public interest and public information. We in the House are sent here also as the protectors of the rights of individuals.
  As a result of the speech which the Prime Minister has made today, there are certain individuals outside the House about whom information has been given. Those individuals, as reported in the Press, have challenged the information which has already been given and which the Prime Minister has repeated today. So here we have a case of a conflict between the national interest, the individual interest and, indeed, the collective interest of the executive of the Union.
  The Prime Minister has said, quite rightly, that privilege is of fundamental importance to us in the House of Commons. I quite understand, as many hon. Members will, that the statements which he has made under privilege cannot be made in public outside the House. At the same time, he does not wish to abandon privilege here, because he believes that it is essential that we should retain it so as to be able to speak out frankly without fear of damage when we believe it right to do so.
  If that is the case and if there is a conflict between the national interest as seen by the Prime Minister of the day, other hon. Members of the House and the rights of individuals, it seems to me that some other means must be found whereby individuals can exercise their
  1638
  rights. And that must be set alongside the national interest. Only then shall we be performing our real duty to the citizens of the country.
  The questions which arise are these. When the Prime Minister says that he doubts whether the members of the executive were their own masters, is his conclusion justified? Secondly, was it wise to make these statements in public in any case? Thirdly, if the statements are fully justified, is any further action needed, either administrative or legislative, to deal with these issues? Those are the three questions which arise out of this situation.
  If I may deal with the question whether it was wise or not, the Prime Minister believes, as he has told us, that they have already shortened the strike, and he justified them on those grounds. I would suggest that we ought to wait a little longer before coming to a final conclusion about that matter. It may be that they have enabled the moderates to get power and shorten the strike. It may be that they have hardened opinion and will lengthen the strike. I ask the House to withhold judgment. I do not think that it is the right time to make a judgment of this kind. Only time will show.
  Secondly, is any further action needed, administrative or legislative, to deal with such a situation? If the Prime Minister is right, and the members of the executive were not their own masters, that is a situation which cannot be tolerated in the country. I do not believe that it can be left to informed public opinion through a debate in the House. It needs very serious consideration about what further action is needed. That is vital in the national interest.
  The Prime Minister has been quite clear about the situation, how we can deal with it in the national interest and, at the same time, safeguard individual rights which must be considered. In those circumstances, I believe that the matter is of such importance both to the national interest and to individuals who are affected, either by themselves or collectively, that there should now be a full inquiry. I believe that it should be held in public where possible, but in private where necessary. It has been our tradition in such cases that any inquiry can take evidence in

  1639
  private where it is undesirable in the national interest that it should be made public, though those affected have to be considered.
  I am not putting to the Prime Minister any rigid view about the nature of the inquiry. I am not saying that it ought to be under the 1921 Tribunals of Inquiry Act. There is time to consider the name of the inquiry carefully, and also the chairmanship. I do not believe that an inquiry purely by the House would be satisfactory. I think that the House itself and the country would like to have an inquiry which was conducted by an outside person. But that and the question of the terms of reference are matters which can be fully discussed.
  The inquiry can then make public its conclusions, and we can see whether or not the members of the executive were their own masters, if they were not their own masters, the way in which the hold, for hold there must be, was exercised by certain members of the executive and the way in which the hold over those members was exercised by the Communist Party from outside the union. When the committee has reached its conclusions on these matters, first the Government and then the House can decide what other action, administrative or legislative, ought to be taken if the situation needs to be put right.
  As the Prime Minister has said, I believe that these matters are of vital importance to the national interest. At the same time, I believe that the citizen of the country ought to have his rights and interests safeguarded in the same way as the national executive. I believe that in the situation which has now arisen, the only way in which that can be done is for the Prime Minister to set up a full inquiry into the facts of the case. Therefore, on behalf of this side of the House I ask him to do so.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. J. Grimond: I would like to turn at once to the proposal for an inquiry, because the House should be quite clear about what the inquiry is to inquire into. The Leader of the Opposition has said that he is putting that out as an idea and that he would like it discussed. I take him at his word.
  1640
  When the right hon. Gentleman spoke of protecting the rights of individuals, are the individuals whose rights he thinks are threatened the men in the Seamen's Union who have been accused of being Communists? Or are they the members of the executive, or both? If they are the former, what we have to examine is how far these rights cannot be protected by the ordinary processes of law. I am very chary of setting out on an inquiry with rather vague terms of reference and finding that it does a great deal of damage in ways which were not foreseen when the inquiry was set up. We should be quite clear as to what inquiry we are pursuing, and what individuals we are attempting to protect. It is no crime in this country either to be a Communist, or to call anyone a Communist.
  The Leader of the Opposition says that the inquiry should look into the allegation that the seamen's executive was not its own master, and should seek to find out how this undue influence, as it appears to be suggested, was exercised on the executive. We are all politicians in this Chamber, and we know that constantly influence is exercised on anybody who has any power. It is a commonplace of life, and I do not believe that we will find out very much more than what is well known about the Communist Party, that it seeks to take advantage of any situation in which people's tempers are raised, and in which they believe they have grievances. In this situation the Communist Party is pretty ruthless, but not illegal, in its methods of bringing pressure to bear. I do not see what sort of inquiry can elucidate this much further, and, if it did, I am not quite clear what the result would be.
  One point which I should like to clear up is this: does the Prime Minister think that the pressures exerted on the executive of the Seamen's Union, though in his view not illegal, should be made illegal? If he feels that an amendment of the law is necessary, that is one proposition. This would be a general amendment of the law covering all sorts of pressures, and all sorts of bodies. What I am afraid of is an ad hoc decision arising out of this strike, and aimed at a particular situation, and at a particular executive, which I think is an undesirable way of coming to a general conclusion about the trade union world, or about any amendment to

  1641
  the democratic processes within it. I believe that we should be quite clear about whether this is a situation in which a court of inquiry would do good, and not damage, exactly what its terms of reference will be, and, further, what sort of people we think should sit on it.
  I do not believe that if we were to translate this into the terms of our own political lives we could have an effective inquiry to discuss, for instance, the teetotal lobby and its effect on the Liberal Party, or the brewers' lobby and its effect on the Conservative Party. Both these lobbies are perfectly proper. It is right that people should lobby. They may, of course, go too far, but I very much doubt whether an inquiry will establish how far they ought to go and how far they do go.
  I have some reservations about rushing into these inquiries which I think most people would agree when set up lately to investigate various allegations by this House have led to considerable damage to innocent people.
  Sir Douglas Glover: It may be that such an inquiry will show the whole of this trouble to be the result of the Prime Minister's imagination; I do not know.
  Mr. Grimond: If the Leader of the Opposition means that the inquiry should investigate the truth or otherwise of the Prime Minister's allegation, that is quite different from investigating pressures within the trade union movement, and this brings out my point that to set up a vague inquiry, with vague terms of reference, might be dangerous.
  I leave that point and turn to the Prime Minister's revelations about the degree of Communist influence in the N.U.S. I think that the House would be badly advised if it thought that this strike would not have taken place had it not been for the Communists. Having talked to many of the strike committee, I am certain that this strike would have taken place anyway. How far the Communists have prolonged it, or encouraged it, is a matter which we shall never be able to decide.
  What we know, and what the Prime Minister has made clear, is that the Communists take advantage of any situation, even if they do not create it, and one major lesson is that this situation in the
  1642
  Seamen's Union was allowed to fester for years and years. I think that part of the blame rest on the tradition of this House that industrial disputes should never be discussed. I am very pleased that we have been able to discuss this strike this afternoon.
  One reason why it is good to discuss these strikes is because these situations build up and steps are not taken in time. The Merchant Shipping Act has not been amended, though it should have been years ago. Secondly, we are blind to the fact that many of these disputes are not necessarily disputes between unions and employers. They are disputes directed possibly at another union or possibly to bring pressure on the employer by the effect which they have on the public.
  At the moment, there is a dispute affecting the Consett Iron Company. The company is not involved in the dispute at all. It is an inter-union dispute, but the company will suffer. As this dispute impinges so directly on the public interest, this is a good reason for the House to discuss it.
  I regret that this inquiry was not set up some time ago. This raises the question of how we are to be seized of industrial situations, how we are to get the information about them. This is another example of how badly informed the House is, and how valuable it might be if it had sources of information so that it could be made aware that these situations were building up.
  The proposals of both sides and of the Pearson Committee are of crucial importance to get this strike settled. I should like to know what is the difference in cost between the old Sunday agreement, the new proposal by Pearson, and whatever compromise is being discussed. I know that this cost may be met by improved efficiency, by changes in the work done on ships, but I would be grateful if I could be told the amount at issue.
  The Prime Minister: It is about 2·4 per cent, above the cost of Pearson to restore the 12 days which were taken away. As against the 4½ per cent, which Pearson recommended, there would be an additional 2·4 per cent, if the 12 days which were taken away in the Pearson Report were restored. The proposal which is at present before them for restoring nine of the days would cost about 1·8 per cent.,

  1643
  which is compensated for by two changes in productivity, which between them add up to about 1·8 per cent.
  Mr. Grimond: So if this could be agreed the incomes policy would not be damaged. Or perhaps I should say that it would not be damaged any further. It has been damaged already. I understand that the Government accept this as being within the tolerance of the incomes policy. I think that it is important to narrow down the issue in terms of cash.
  It is generally agreed by everyone that the Merchant Shipping Act has either to be drastically amended or reintroduced.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: What about judges' salaries?
  Mr. Grimond: I am more concerned with the Merchant Shipping Act. Is it possible to give an undertaking, not as to the nature of the Amendment, but as to the timetable for it? The seamen feel that they have been put off, that they are always being promised an inquiry on amendments but that these inquiries never end, and the amendments never come.
  I do not know whether the Prime Minister is to wind up the debate. If he is, he has given an undertaking that the Pearson Committee will continue to examine the operation of the Merchant Shipping Act, and I shall be grateful if he can give us any idea of a timetable for getting this done.
  Further, it strikes me from the contacts that I have had with members of some of the strike committees that there are peculiar features about the arrangements in this industry. No doubt these arise out of the nature of the industry. Anyone who has studied the Year Book must have been struck by its complexity. I cannot believe that this is a good basis for carrying on negotiations. Surely there should be some simpler method of doing it.
  We must remember that the Communists on the strike committees were elected to them. As the Prime Minister has said, the chairman of the Liverpool strike committee is a Communist. He was elected to that office, and I do not think there is any suggestion that he was
  1644
  wrongly elected. It may be that very few people voted, but very few people vote in local elections, and other elections. It is strange that those few Communists, properly elected in many cases, should neverthless be able to exercise this extremely powerful influence—not illegally. I cannot help thinking that it must be because the Communists are extremely energetic and acute people. There is no real answer to the problem, except to remove the circumstances in which the Communists flourish and by bringing forward equally energetic people who will get themselves elected.
  I now turn to the conditions which I have experienced in my constituency and around the Scottish Islands. Here in London one would not think there was emergency, but we in the North are in an emergency, and we have been for weeks and weeks, and it is doing us a great deal of damage. When the strike started there was a great deal of sympathy for the seamen among members of my constituency. Many seamen come from Shetland. There was no desire to have any privileges which were not being enjoyed by the rest of the country. We realised only too quickly that we were going to lose our tourist trade, not for a month or two but for the summer, but we believed that we should not be subjected to a total blockade, which can do no one any good, which cannot have any bearing on the settlement of the dispute, and which is suffered nowhere else on the mainland.
  That is the situation that we have been in for seven weeks. We have had only about one-eighth of our normal merchandise. I ask hon. Members who are sympathetic with the difficulties of the seamen to put themselves in the position of an English county with which there is no trading by rail or road. That is the position that we have been in for seven weeks. When the emergency began we decided that we would try to play along with the strike committees. That we did. We had no desire to play the part of strike breakers.
  But I warned the Government that if the dispute persisted for a month or more we should find it impossible to run the community on a hand-to-mouth basis. We were told that landing craft and other vessels would be made available. I pointed out that landing craft were unsuitable,

  1645
  because Shetland lies across 150 miles of rough sea, and landing craft were not intended to undertake such operations. They are also too small and are unsuitable for merchandise. But we played along, with the local communities suffering great hardship, and with the total disruption of our trade.
  Then, on 20th June, the Prime Minister made his serious allegations about the nature of the dispute and its motivation by the Communists. He also said:
  "the Government now propose to supplement this service by the regular use of naval vessels to make possible a greater movement of supplies ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th June. 1966; Vol. 730, c. 41.]
  The supplies that we wanted were the normal ones of fuel, oil, and groceries, feeding stuffs, etc. But if we could not have a tourist trade, at least we wanted a trade in livestock from Orkney and refrigerated fish from Shetland. The Government knew this, and when I read the statement I presumed that there had been some emergency planning and that the Navy was in a position to implement these plans.
  But what was the position? The only ship at Aberdeen was the landing craft "Abbeville", which is very small, and is not suitable. It is extremely difficult to load. The other vessel was the "Lofoten", which was then at Devon-port, of all places. This was to serve Orkney and Shetland, hundreds of miles from the extreme northern tip of Scotland. The "Lofoten" has two holds, the bigger one having the disadvantage that its hatch is welded down, and the only entrance is along a passage. It is intended to carry tanks or vehicles loaded through the bows or the stern.
  These were the two craft to be used, and a third was spoken of. This was the contingency planning for the movement of supplies by naval vessels. This was the sole preparation by this Government, who call themselves planners. In the middle of last week I had consultations with the Government, and was assured that other vessels would be procured and that the "Lofoten" would be sent to Aberdeen by Friday. I do not blame the Government for postponing the arrangements for other vessels temporarily; I can appreciate that in the present state of negotiations it might have been sensible. But they should have been ready to put
  1646
  these plans into effect as soon as the strike continued. They had been warned weeks and weeks ago of what was necessary.
  But in the mounting crisis in my constituency and in other Scottish islands there was no sense of urgency in the Scottish Office, and no Minister in the North. It was extremely difficult to find out even what these vessels would hold, and when they would move. No other vessel has been made available since last Wednesday, in spite of definite promises that this would be done. The "Abbeville" left Aberdeen yesterday, leaving behind 70 tons of cargo and all the mail which it could not carry because of the weather, and then had to shelter at Peterhead, because it could not face the seas. It is now shipping water and approaching Shetland at a speed of 2 knots.
  Wholesalers in Shetland are running out of supplies. The "Lofoten" should have been equipped to take livestock, and should have been provided with refrigerated space. Whether she has been I do not know, but she was not so equipped on 20th June, although the strike had been going on then for five weeks, and one would have thought that a Government of planners would make some contingency planning.
  I cannot emphasise too strongly the disastrous effect that this situation is having on the islands, particularly Shetland, and this situation can be paralleled all round the coast of Scotland. There might have been a case for keeping the Navy right out of it, but there cannot be a case for putting it in in a totally incompetent way. If there is a hurricane in the Bahamas the Government take pride in having the Navy there to deal with the disaster by means of aircraft carriers, destroyers, and so forth. But in this case we have only two totally unsuitable landing craft, one of which was at Devonport only a week ago.
  Whether or not the strike goes on the Government should make preparations for saving the people of Shetland, Orkney and the other islands, who are in a serious position. Surely we can use the air? There has been little supplementation of the air services—which are booked months ahead—one flight by the Royal Air Force, I believe. I hope that the Government will talk to the Post

  1647
  Office authorities about it. People in Shetland are horrified at the way this operation was carried out. They must, too, now send aircraft up to lift the mail from Aberdeen and improve the whole service. Our only method of getting urgent supplies is by airmail. I hope that we shall see a total change in the degree of urgency which the Government are putting into the emergency which already exists in some parts of the country.
  The real solution is to stop the strike. I do not know what the news is today, but I hope that we shall be able to come to some arrangement on the basis now being discussed, and especially on the question of leave. I am horrified at the way in which the emergency arrangements are being carried out. The position is even worse than the Leader of the Opposition indicated, because all this could have been done without these Regulations. The Government moved naval vessels two days after the strike began, but they did not move the right ones, and there was no attempt to procure cargo vessels, which were the only ones which could do the job.
  I make no apologies to the House for bringing to its notice the disastrous effects of the strike on my constituents and asking hon. Members to support me in getting some proper steps taken at least to save us from a more dreadful fate if the strike continues.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Mikardo: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak, because a significant number of the men on strike are constituents of mine and a significant number of the ships tied up are tied up in the docks and waterways which interlace the southern part of my constituency.
  I thought that there were long passages in the speech of the Prime Minister which were among the most penetrating and most masterly pieces of analysis and exposition which even he has given to the House. We were all much indebted to him for his careful and detailed analysis of the way in which the present situation has been influenced by the unfortunate history, over many years, of relationships between the executive committee and the rank and file members of the National Union of Seamen. I thought also that he made a notable contribution to our discussion in what he said about the just
  1648
  grievances of the seamen and about our not needing to use the term "militant", as so many people do, as a term of abuse.
  Having paid my right hon. Friend that tribute, I wish that he had said what he said about those things today when he went on televison a day or two after the beginning of the strike, instead of, as he did, going on the television and beating the seamen over the head with all his great power, skill and authority. If he had spoken in these terms of understanding and even of sympathy on the television that day that he has used in the House today, I believe that he would have had far more influence than he has had on the seamen, both the executive and the rank and file members, even to the extent that he might have been able to use that influence to get the strike settled long before now.
  The right hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the benches opposite have said—of course, rightly, and I agree with them—that the story which the Prime Minister unfolded of the Communist Party seeking to stir up trouble in every strike situation and, for that matter he might have added, in every pre-strike situation, is an old and familiar story. The Prime Minister was telling us nothing which most, if not all, of us did not know.
  Nobody who has been engaged in trade union activity for any length of time, certainly nobody who has had to represent trade unionists in negotiations on their behalf and sometimes carrying out industrial action on their behalf, will find what the Prime Minister said today a great and blinding revelation. I have been a member of the national executive committee of the trade union of which my right hon. Friend is a member for 20 years, and I have seen at first hand a good deal of the activity which he has described today. But, out of that experience—I think that what I am saying will be endorsed by many of my hon. Friends whose experience in these matters is infinitely greater than mine—I would say that my right hon. Friend ought not to overrate the effect of the influence of Communist activity in a strike situation.
  In my experience there has not been a single strike—I have been involved in a few—which would not otherwise have taken place and which did take place

  1649
  because of Communist intervention, nor do I know of a single strike which went on longer than it would otherwise have done because of Communist intevention. I challenge any challenge on that. The plain fact is that, if a man is a professional purveyor of irritants, as are some of the gentlemen about whom my right hon. Friend has been talking today, he can scratch a wound until it gets a bit more sore, but he cannot create the wound.
  The Communist is effective only to the extent that there is a deeply-felt and widely-felt grievance which would be deeply-felt and widely-felt without him. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that if the Prime Minister's statement today had been made by a Conservative Minister or Prime Minister, it should have been heavily criticised by members of my party. I am sure that that is true. The criticism which would have been made under those circumstances is that it is all too fatally easy to be mentally lazy and not seriously analyse what is going into a strike by saying, "It is just the Communists; you do not have to bother to look very deeply below the surface."
  Too many people—I hope that my right hon. Friend will not add himself to them—make the too-glib mistake of attributing to the Communist Party in its activities in strike situations far more power and influence than it has. The Prime Minister talked about the policy of the Communist Party as being, amongst other things, to oppose his prices and incomes policy. In all friendliness —the Prime Minister is a friend of mine in more than a conventional sense—I would say to him that if the only opposition to his prices and incomes policy which he had to fear were from the Communists, he would be a lot better off than he is and than he will be over the next few months.
  I must say, with regret, that I think the Prime Minister's speech today, carefully thought out, moderately expressed and cogently argued though it was, still does not relieve him from a serious charge. The serious charge is that he did something which he ought not to have done in laying charges one day and producing what he believes to be the evidence eight days later. If he had said on Monday of last week what he said today, he would be in a much stronger
  1650
  position. But on Monday of last week, he said to us that the members of the executive of the seamen's union contained people who either were, or were the creatures of, a sinister, tightly-knit group.
  In parenthesis, I would say that I do not know why we have suddenly discovered the phrase "tightly-knit" as a pejorative term. There is nothing wrong with being tightly-knit. At one time or another, my right hon. Friend and I have both been members of a tightly-knit group—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It was a wholly beneficent group. It was a wholly praiseworthy group: he and I would not have been members of it, otherwise. It was not any the less beneficent or praiseworthy on account of being tightly-knit.
  However, apart from interrupting myself, what I was saying was that, eight days ago, the Prime Minister left it open to every Member of the House and to everybody in the country to believe that. there were some sinister people, members of or influenced by a tightly-knit group, on the executive of the National Union of Seamen. Today, he has told us who they were—two of them—and I will accept for the moment, because I have no way of knowing whether it is right or wrong, that every word he told us about those two people is absolutely right.
  Today, my right hon. Friend has exonerated 46 people from a charge which he laid on them eight days ago, for eight days ago he did not name the people concerned and we did not know whether the number was two, seven, four, or whatever it might be. Because he did not, eight days ago, name any one of those 48 people for using their position on the national executive of the N.U.S. —not in furtherance of the interests of the members of the union who had elected them, but in furtherance of the Communist Party or some other outside body—those 48 people have been under that charge.
  I agree in general with what my right hon. Friend said—and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition agreed with this—about the need for the maintenance of privilege. However, I thought that he was stretching the right of privilege a bit far, because if I were one of the 46 innocent members of the

  1651
  union I would feel that I had had a charge held over me for eight days, one which would be actionable in a court of law if it were made without being made under privilege. That is not only a bit hard, but absolutely wrong. Even today, while the Prime Minister no longer suggests that these 46 people are under that charge, he is saying that they are suckers, mugs, because they are being led by the nose. In some respects this is an even greater charge. The French have a phrase for it, "C'est plus qu'un crime: C'est une faute", which means that a mistake is more blameworthy than a crime. Often it is. A mistake in a man occupying a high representative position is, in some respects, more blameworthy.
  I say immediately that, as far as I am aware, I do not personally know any of the 48 members of the executive of the N.U.S. Unless by accident, perhaps at a meeting, I have been introduced to one or any of them, to the best of my knowledge I have never met any of them. However, I do not believe that there are 46 Britons anywhere, on any Clapham omnibus, certainly not 46 Britons who have carried the confidence of substantial numbers of their fellow men who have elected them to office, who do not include among them a single one who is incapable of resisting being led by the nose by sinister forces.
  I therefore cannot accept the picture painted by my right hon. Friend of 48 people—probably more than 48 if one adds officials and others—sitting around a table with two of them being very vocal and militant while the other 46 are acting like a lot of blinking sheep. I do not believe it. If, instead of that number, it had been three or four, that might have been credible. If it had been 10 or a dozen I would have found it a bit hard to believe. But 46 of them, without one man of guts and principle among them, I cannot believe. There must, therefore, be a lot more explaining and a bit more hard evidence before we can accept all this.
  I come to another point which does not directly concern the present strike, but of which the present strike is one example following a lot of other examples. There are many hon. Members on both sides of the House who, in the last few years—indeed, this goes
  1652
  back a number of years—have become increasingly perturbed at the extent to which information is fed out from Government sources to other people and other institutions before it is given to the House. I am not blaming one Government for this, because it goes back a long way. It was, I believe, rife during a part of the Government of Mr. Harold Macmillan, and I think that there has been a lot of evidence of it during the lifetime of the present Government.
  The Prime Minister told us today that we must have privilege because it is the duty of all of us to get up and tell what we know. I will obey my right hon. Friend's command and I will do exactly that. And what I know is that last Saturday morning, among all the industrial correspondents who were assembled in Clapham to cover the meeting of the executive of the N.U.S.—and among those were some of the most reputable ones, those who represent what I believe in the trade are called the "heavies," the serious newspapers—it was commonly known that some information had been fed out of a dossier from Downing Street about the strike to a representative of the Observer.
  It could well be that the reason why it was resented by the representatives of the other newspapers was because of a bit of professional jealousy. They were, perhaps, a little peeved because they did not get the leak as well. However, I am concerned not with the reason for that discussion, but with the facts. It was said freely among them that the contents of the dossier were made available—either part of the contents or the lot—to this person from the Observer, that they had also been shown, perhaps for good reasons, to Mr. Hogarth, and that, perhaps for excellent reasons, they had also been shown to Mr. George Woodcock, and that this dossier implicated a number of officials of trade unions other than the N.U.S.
  My right hon. Friend mentioned one today, but not a number. He mentioned one, but in that dossier, apart from the one he mentioned, were a number of others. It also implicated a number of hon. Members of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The people who were implicated ought to have been among the first to be shown this information, if anyone was to be shown it

  1653
  at all. Certainly, this House should have been given this information before anyone else was given it. I repeat that this is one illustration. It is not only the strike which this sort of thing has affected. It has affected a lot of other things—this increasing tendency to keep everyone else informed before the House is informed.
  Sir D. Glover: On a point of order. As the hon. Gentleman's speech is becoming somewhat of an attack on the Prime Minister, do you not think that the Prime Minister should be in his place, Mr. Speaker?
  Mr. William Hamilton: Grow up.
  Mr. Speaker: That is the second bogus point of order today.
  Mr. Mikardo: I regret that interruption on the part of the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), because I am trying to make a sober and reasoned contribution.. I wish to avoid arousing any feelings. I am not attacking anybody. I should have thought that, with the hon. Gentleman's long experience, he would have been as anxious as any other hon. Member to get at the facts of this situation without heat or acrimony. That is what I am trying to do, and the hon. Gentleman should not try to create bad blood between me and my right hon. Friend, because he will not succeed in doing so.
  Sir D. Glover: I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. I was not trying to make bad blood, but as the hon. Member has been telling us a story and I have been listening to it with great interest and as this dossier was issued, I think that the persons concerned would like to hear what it was.
  Mr. Mikardo: I am sorry that I gave way. I thought that the hon. Member was rising to apologise; otherwise, I would not have given way.
  I draw my remarks to a close and perhaps I may use the intervention of the hon. Member to say that in so far as I have made some criticisms I have made them with the deepest regret. Unlike the hon. Member, I am not trying to score off anybody. We are today discussing a serious matter. My right hon. Friend said that we ought to learn from this strike some lessons for the future.
  1654
  I have tried to draw three lessons for the future. The first is that we should not over-rate the influence of Communists who are noisy but puny when it comes down to brass tacks. The second is that we should provide the evidence at the same time as we make charges, not a week later. The third is that if there is any inside information which is given it should be given to this House before it is given to anyone else.
  6.12 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: I find myself very much in agreement with almost all that the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) said. Indeed, we are in some danger of becoming "a tightly-knit group of politically orientated men". I agree with him that the charges made by the Prime Minister against the executive of the National Union of Seamen are very serious indeed, very grave charges. What he was saying was that somehow or other—he did not explain how—these 40-plus men were intimidated, threatened and bamboozled into taking decisions which they themselves thought were wrong, wrong for their union, and wrong for their country, a very serious charge indeed to make against any body of men, and it was made under the cover of privilege.
  The Prime Minister had something to say about privilege and I shall have something to say about it at the end of my speech. Of course it is important that we should have privilege in this House, but we cannot expect to keep it if we abuse it. I do not think anyone ought to make an accusation in this House without producing some solid reasons to show that his accusation is true. What I think is unacceptable except in very unusual circumstances is that anyone should make a charge in this House which he is not prepared to make outside. The charge was made and no evidence was produced at the time and we were waiting to hear what evidence the Prime Minister would give today.
  As the hon. Member for Poplar pointed out, the Prime Minister spoke almost exactly from the same brief as was used by the Observer. It was the same brief except for the addition that someone went to someone's flat. We are all giving information. My information is that this brief was offered to several other newspapers which would not use it. I suppose

  1655
  it was done by the Paymaster-General or some of those fellows who work on the deep-litter system at 10, Downing Street. The Paymaster-General thought the proprietor and editor of the Observer was a big enough sucker to buy the story.
  What does the story say? It simply says, as everyone knows, that when there is a strike, official or unofficial, Communists always cash in and, in the words of the hon. Member, try to make things a bit worse, offer help and try to organise it. That is absolutely common form and is known to everyone. It happens in every single strike but that is not the same thing as intimidating members of a union. If we say that because Communists are trying to muscle in on a strike and make it worse therefore those running the strike are under the influence of the Communist Party and are intimidated by it, what we are doing is to cast a slur on the trade union movement because in every strike Communists interfere.
  I thought there was nothing in that article. The good article was the one published on the same day by the Sunday Times which had really been into the question and interviewed everyone, including Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater. Its conclusion was contained in the interview with the last man who was interviewed and was reported in the last sentence of the article. This man said:
  "The Prime Minister is doing another Hardy Spicer, but this time on the unions."
  I believe that is true.
  My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said that there ought to be some inquiry into this matter. I do not think we can leave things exactly as they are. I should like a tribunal to be set up. The Prime Minister has a very good memory. He probably remembers the Bank Rate Tribunal. There, as he will remember, he made unfounded charges against Lord Poole. The only way to clear those charges up was to bring them before a tribunal. I cannot think that we could get these charges cleared up without a tribunal. If there is a tribunal I promise the Prime Minister that I will listen to his evidence with the same wrapt attention as I listened to his evidence at the Bank Rate Tribunal.
  6.17 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Perhaps my only qualification for intervening is that I happen to have taken part in the last national seamen's strike 55 years ago. I am an honorary member of the National Union of Seamen, as far as I know the only one in this assembly, and throughout the years I have maintained close contact with the seamen of this country, and moreover with the shipowners, so I think I know something about the subject.
  I understood that what we were proposing to discuss, as the Leader of the Liberal Party said, was an industrial dispute, but we are doing nothing of the sort. It is merely an attack on the Prime Minister. I observed that the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) was not in his usual form, bursting with venom. All he could say was that he agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo). That is very strange company for my hon. Friend and strange for him to be commended by the right hon. Member for Flint, West. It is the worst attack I have heard in this House for many years.
  Mr. Mikardo: Guilty by association.
  Mr. Shinwell: No doubt mistakes were made in the course of this tragic affair. Several days before this dispute occurred I spoke to the Minister of Labour and I ventured, out of such experience as I had of the seamen and of the shipping industry, to adopt a certain course. It was followed. When the Leader of the Liberal Party in this House, as he will recall, asked for an inquiry I opposed it because I thought it far better to leave this matter to be negotiated between one side and the other, which is customary.
  If I had had my way, whether it was a tribunal presided over by Lord Pearson or perhaps by a conciliation officer appointed by the Minister of Labour, I would have kept both sides together as is customary in negotiations of this sort until I exhausted them and forced them to come to a conclusion. It might have been better if that had been done, because there is always a danger when an inquiry is set up that the conclusions, if they are not capable of being imposed on both sides, are regarded as static and rigid. That is the mistake which was made. Even when the inquiry was set up it was

  1657
  too prolonged. It enabled all the militant forces which exist either in the union or on the perimeter of the union to make their demands in more militant fashion than at the beginning of this affair.
  A demand has been made that a tribunal should be set up to inquire into the charges made by the Prime Minister. Is it suggested that such a tribunal should inquire into whether the seamen are masters in their own house? That is a fair question. Is the executive of the National Union of Seamen master in its own house? I put another question: are all the shipowners masters in their own house?
  It so happened that, with the consent of the appropriate parties, I ventured to intervene in this affair, although nothing appeared in the Press. It did not attract any publicity. The general secretary and the assistant general secretary of the Union were good enough to come and meet me and some of my colleagues who are interested in shipping matters. We discussed the situation in the most friendly fashion, and certain suggestions were made.
  No sooner had we made those suggestions than I had the opportunity of talking to the chairman of the Shipping Federation. Again, this conversation was conducted in the most friendly terms. It was thought that negotiation could proceed along certain lines dealing primarily with the question of leave. This is a very complicated matter, but one which some of us understand. We thought that we had guided it into the right lines, but we had not.
  I shall not blame Communists or any militants operating on the perimeter of the union, although these things happen. The Prime Minister's reference to the national executive of the National Union of Seamen not being masters in their own house has been spoken of in derisory terms, but very few trade union executives are masters in their own house. I say this because, if it were otherwise, we should not have the number of unofficial disputes that we do have. These occur precisely because national executives are unable to exercise control, to impose discipline, to assert their authority, as men like Ernie Bevin and even Jimmy Thomas and Marchbanks could do in the old days. Because of this we have too many unofficial strikes. They are not masters in their own house.
  1658
  The same applies to the shipowners. There are several shipping companies which could afford to meet every one of the demands made by the seamen—the 40-hour week immediately without great cost, the leave days, etc.—and pay the necessary overtime at a fairly high rate. Several shipping companies could do this, but many could not. Some shipping companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. As a result of this dispute, they may go out of existence. That would be disastrous, not only for them, but it would not confer any benefits on the country as a whole. I would deplore it if this happened. I say without fear of contradiction that many shipping companies are so heavily in debt to the banks that they have to do pretty well what the financiers dictate. Their policy is often dictated by the financial situation. I am not blaming them for that. This happens to be their position. In view of this, can it seriously be argued that the shipowners are masters in their own house?
  Who is the master in any house? Is the Leader of the Opposition any more master in his house than the Prime Minister is in his, or any more than any of us is? We are dictated to and pestered —rightly so—by our constituents. Therefore, are we masters in our own houses, free and independent? I beseech hon. Members not to try to put that sort of baloney over to me. I understand things much better than to believe that.
  I will tell the House something about the executive of the National Union of Seamen, whether in the past, the present or the future. I pose rhetorically the question: are the executive of the union masters in their own house? They are not under the control, authority and dictatorship of Communists and militants outside. They are under the control of their members. They are not masters in their own house. They must do as their members tell them or else out they go, because these officials are not elected for life.
  I come now to discuss the dispute itself, because that is what we are supposed to be discussing. What is it all about? Let me indulge for a few moments in history. What happened in 1911? Before then, Havelock Wilson, the seamen's leader, was bankrupt. He had three times assailed the Shipping

  1659
  Federation in the courts. On two occasions he had been adjudged bankrupt, but he succeeded in one action and was awarded a ¼d damages.
  There was practically no union. Here and there attempts existed sporadically to create a union—an organisation—but they were always resisted by the Shipping Federation. Havelock Wilson and the Shipping Federation were deadly enemies. After 1911 and 1912, after a series of transport strikes and following the seamen's strike in 1911, they became very good friends. Ever since then, through the National Maritime Organisation, they have maintained relations of the utmost friendliness, on the understanding—make no bones about it; the seamen understand this also; they know all about it—that strikes would be avoided at all costs.
  The militants in the union are not the ocean-going men. What opportunity have they got? Of course they argue in the forecastle, in the galley, in the engine room, as the case may be. They argue amongst themselves, because there are always sea lawyers about. However, as to expressing militancy when they come home and are discharged, perhaps after a four-month or five-month voyage and after they receive their pay, do they bother to attend a committee meeting? Of course not. They are told that they owe, say, five months' contributions. They pay up willingly. That is all. They stay home for three or four weeks and then they join a ship again. Such men hardly ever attend the union meetings.
  Those who attend the union offices and committees are mainly those on the short sea trade and the longshore men and riggers. These are the people who are largely responsible, along with the officials, for the administration of the union.
  What was the dispute about in 1911? Able seamen were sailing to the River Plate for £3 a month. Firemen were getting £3 10s. a month. I remind the House that in those days they were all coal-burning ships. A demand was made for £5 10s. a month all round. Havelock Wilson, in his contact with the Shipping Federation and in his negotiations in London, accepted £5 a month. We on the Clyde held out for £5 10s. a month, and we got it. If ever there was an
  1660
  example of militancy, we were responsible for it.
  Throughout the years the conditions of seamen have never been satisfactory. I confess that I blame myself for this to some extent. Some of my colleagues are equally to blame. There used to be a Shipping Committee in the House. We dealt with shipping affairs and made contact with the seamen. For the last two or three years we have not bothered, largely because when there were shipping debates in the House—I am within the recollection of some of the older Members—not more than half a dozen people took part. Under the Conservative Government Colonel Ropner was the only one who spoke from the Government side on behalf of the shipowners. From the Opposition side, I myself and two or three others spoke on behalf of the seamen and very often put the case for the shipowners also. We were concerned about this country as a maritime nation and wanted to sustain it. We blame ourselves. We should have maintained that Committee and we might have gained some knowledge of what was happening among the seamen and intervened at an early stage.
  I hope that the seamen will come to some conclusion with the Shipping Federation this evening or perhaps tomorrow, but certainly as soon as possible, to bring this tragic affair to an end. We have to ask ourselves whether we can go on as a nation affording strikes of this character. I put a fair question, and I should like an answer from anybody in the House or outside, or from the quidnuncs and wiseacres in the Press who talk about things about which they know nothing.
  For six weeks, seven weeks, maybe eight weeks or maybe longer, the nation is held up for ransom. I am not blaming the seamen—they had a justifiable case. But we cannot go on in this fashion, destroying the economy of the country at a time of financial stringency, when our economy is almost in ruins, no matter who is to blame, whether it is this Government or successive Tory Governments. Something must be done about the situation.
  A Royal Commission is to inquire into the trade unions. Something must be done long before the Royal Commission comes to a decision. With such modesty

  1661
  as I possess, I say that I am perhaps an older trade unionist than anybody here, because I joined a trade union in 1902, which is a long time ago. I know something about the trade union movement, and I have always thought that there should be some reforms. Way back in 1928 I ventured to make a speech at a conference of the Independent Labour Party in Birmingham, in which I criticised the trade union leaders. It did me no good, because the T.U.C. passed a resolution of censure on me, which Mr. Ramsay Macdonald took note of when he was forming his Cabinet in 1929.
  That does not matter now. I do not care whether it is my friend and colleague for whom I have great admiration and affection, the Minister of Technology, or Sir William Carron, whom I know very well, or any of the trade union leaders—Ted Hill who is now retired— I know them all. I have met them all in my time and I do not care who they are, I venture to say that the time has come for drastic reform of the trade unions, cutting out the dead wood and perhaps in the case of the seamen—I do not know whether the seamen would like this—a paternal and solicitous attitude towards the organisation that cannot possibly be democratic because the oceangoing men who travel the seven seas have to leave their destinies in the hands of a few officials and some of the longshoremen and some of those men who come from the short sea trades.
  A word about the Prime Minister: does the Prime Minister never make mistakes? Of course he does. What is the position of the Prime Minister? If anybody imagines that I am asking for favours, the answer is that I am not. I do not think of anything that he can give me. I am about the only one who does not want a job on the Government—I do not dislike the members of the Government at all. I think that there are some very good men in the Government, and some good women. There are good men throughout the House. There are good men on the other side; I have met a lot of very decent people on the other side. That may surprise some of my colleagues but nevertheless it is true. Of course there are—even the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), in spite of that extraordinary speech
  1662
  which he made the other day when he described the Prime Minister as an emperor. I sometimes pity the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and so I shall not indulge in any offensive reply on this occasion. We all feel sorry for for him.
  What about the Prime Minister? If one is Prime Minister and is faced with a strike of this character one is almost helpless. He is faced with an executive which will not do what he has asked it to do. He has an inquiry conducted by a man of vast knowledge, juridical and otherwise. Yet the seamen's executive will not listen. What is one to do, with the nation in the meantime suffering from the economic effects, and the Leader of the Liberal Party concerned about his two islands beyond the North of Scotland?
  The Prime Minister naturally looks around to see who is responsible for this, and he knows very well that the Communists will take advantage of every strike in this country, and no doubt they have taken advantage of this one. It is not illegal, but a time may come when some elements may seek to use their power and propaganda to destroy the nation's economy, or at any rate to weaken it. It may then be necessary to take action. I am all for free speech, of course, but I am not in favour of licence. If anybody disagrees with me, I remind him that in wartime we do not allow the nation's economy to be weakened by elements which are concerned only with political, and very often sinister, motives.
  Here is a situation in which the Prime Minister has made charges, and in my judgment he was not far off the beam. If I had had to make the charges, I should have used much more elegant language. If my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar had had to make the charges, one can imagine the eloquence in which he would have indulged.
  The Prime Minister, in his matter-of-fact, prosaic fashion, made the charges in circumstances which indicated that he was going through a great ordeal, as we all are in these circumstances. We want to end this tragic and at this stage—not at the beginning—unnecessary affair. If we are to learn a lesson, let us get the right lesson, not to indulge merely in attacks on the Prime Minister, whether justified or not. In these circumstances we should

  1663
  say to the seamen and the shipowners, "Put an end to all this nonsense. You and we have had enough. Get together, try to compose your differences, the nation cannot afford this any longer." That is the way to talk to them.
  If they do not listen, the only recourse open to the Government is to impose regulations in a stringent fashion. The country will not stand anything else. Let us make our appeal from the House today, and I ask even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Flint, West for his co-operation in this regard, to join with us. Let us all join together to say to the seamen and the shipowners. "Come to some arrangement. Come to some conclusion in the interests of the nation."
  6.30 p.m.
  Sir Lionel Heald: I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak at this moment, because I want to approach the subject from the point of view which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) has been recommending. Of course, we must support the Regulations. But before the House passes them, and as a condition of doing so, I believe that we are entitled to seek from the Prime Minister a clear statement of his views and intentions on the long-term aspect of industrial relations.
  We have heard nothing about it from him for years. Indeed, I cannot remember having heard anything from the Prime Minister about it. I have here documents such as "Signposts for the Sixties", "Working for Prosperity", the Labour Party manifesto at the last election, and the text of the Prime Minister's speeches. The right hon. Gentleman has always avoided the subject. We are entitled on both sides of the House to have a clear statement of what his intentions are.
  No doubt, I shall be told that this is all subject to the Royal Commission. For the right hon. Member for Easington— I am glad to have his authority to follow in this matter—that is not enough. What is required is that the Government should give more guidance to the Royal Commission than they have. We are entitled also to ask that the Trades Union Congress should give more guidance than it has. The Government have put before the Royal Commission a document, a
  1664
  copy of which I have here, the Ministry of Labour's evidence, and a very woolly production it is. I had great difficulty in getting hold of a copy at all today because very few people seem to have heard of it. I looked through to see what comments I could find in the Press at the time, and I found practically none. Although the Royal Commission cannot possibly solve the problems of industrial relations, at least it could contribute and the Government could contribute, a great deal if we were to have a more modern and efficient machine. Here again, I have the authority of the right hon. Member for Easington to follow.
  Undoubtedly, there are many aspects of trade union law and the trade union system which give opportunities to the Communists to cause trouble, which cause friction, which produce results unfair and unjust to individual members, which cause trouble between unions, and the like. I have here an interesting document which many people may have forgotten but which aroused a good deal of interest at the time, the Daily Mirror publication, "The Trade Unions" published in October, 1965.
  I speak with great humility in this matter, but ever since I have been a Member I have regarded the question of industrial relations as one of the fundamental questions in our national life. In my own constituency, I have managed to keep it apart from party politics, and I have had the great benefit of discussions and friendly contacts with many trade unionists both in the rank and file and in the leadership. I was immensely impressed at the last General Election by the warm and friendly reception I had from trade unionists, including many political opponents of mine, when I expounded what I believed to be the Conservative policy then established which was originally stated at the very outset of the campaign by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath).
  I refer in particular to the proposal for an efficient, up-to-date industrial court with real prestige and able to command the confidence of the country. We are one of the few large nations in the world which do not have such a court. We have our ad hoc committees. I speak with trepidation in these matters, but I

  1665
  am told by those who know much more than I do that it is the ad hoc appointment of a committee at a late stage in a dispute which often causes more trouble than it does good. The industrial courts which other countries have gain knowledge of the difficulties by experience and are very often able to avert serious trouble by wise decisions.
  There is, of course, the question of the powers which the court should have. I believe that there is in the country today a strong public demand, quite irrespective of party, for a court which has power not only to make a report which is argued about and discussed, and bandied to and fro in the Press but which has the power, if necessary, to make an order, to grant an injunction. I believe that a court with such powers would give a great deal of confidence.
  It is not appropriate in this debate to go into detail, but I feel entitled to say that I have, and have had for some years, the privilege of being chairman of an organisation of Conservative lawyers, the Inns of Court Conservative Society. As long ago as 1957, we produced a pamphlet, "A Giant's Strength", with proposals for reform in the trade union system. I think that it came before its time, but we recently submitted to the Royal Commission a series of proposals following the general lines of policy laid down by the leader of my party before the last election. The industrial court system is there discussed in some detail.
  Such a system would deal with all the different kinds of problems and difficulties which arise. If it were an efficient, competent body, with regular sittings, proper staff and with background and experience, it could do great good. Perhaps it could sit in the regions or, on the other hand, there might be regional courts and a central court. Such an industrial court would be able to deal with internal injustices in the unions, and it would be able to deal also, in whatever manner was decided by Parliament, with industrial disputes.
  I believe it to be true that the Communists take advantage of any situation which suits them. One such situation arises when there is really no law, when no one knows what the law is. We have the jungle which was explored in the Rookes v. Barnard case. We have all the difficulties of applying the law to
  1666
  matters which are not really matters of law at all.
  A court of that kind which was trusted would not be there for the purpose of crushing the workers or repressing the trade unions. It would be there to do justice between man and man, between man and his union, between one union and another, and between the trade unions and the country as a whole. I hope and believe that it will come.
  But what we must have is further guidance given by the Government to the Royal Commission, either directly to the Commission or in a speech from the Prime Minister in which he really went into the matter. I do not say that what he said today was not perfectly sound as far as it went. But it dealt only with the beginnings of an analysis of the causes of the trouble. We want a remedy as well. We were not advanced very far in that direction today. Although I appreciate that there may be people who feel that their reputations have been affected and they have a perfect right to demand an opportunity to vindicate themselves if they wish, I cannot believe that what the Prime Minister said today added anything to the knowledge of anyone in the House who has ever studied this subject or, certainly, of anyone who read the Observer last Sunday. So it does not get us very far.
  What would take us some distance would be a statement from the Prime Minister, following the lines suggested by the right hon. Member for Easington, that steps must be taken to improve our industrial relations. Industrial relations are vital. We can never expect to have efficient industry, growing exports and all the things we need so badly if, at the same time, our opportunities are spoiled by bad industrial relations.
  It should not be a party matter in any manner or sense. But there must be some lead from the top. That lead must come from the Government—from the Prime Minister himself. I criticise the Prime Minister in many ways and will continue to do so, but he is Prime Minister of Great Britain and if he puts forward a line of policy which is in the public interest it is the duty of all of us to support him. But he never has on this so far, and I hope that I shall not be considered impertinent if I suggest that this is the moment for him to start.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) will forgive me if I do not follow him, but I think that it is a little too soon to talk about industrial courts. A great deal of water must flow under the bridge before we get to that situation.
  I am concerned about the two statements that the Prime Minister has made —the first on Monday last week and the second today, at much greater length and with great cogency. It was apparent to the House today that he had given the preparation of his speech much thought. Generally, the speech was well received.
  What I am concerned about is the serious position emanating from the two statement. Whether we in this House like it or not, we are in a new situation vis-é-vis the trade union movement. There will be great repercussions throughout the country—there is no doubt about that.
  What it boils down to is that two individuals of the executive council of the N.U.S. have exerted great influence over the other 46 members. My right hon. Friend has also told us that no illegality has been committed—that no charges could be preferred for any action these men have taken. One wonders how much further this House would like to go as far as individual freedom is concerned. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend said that he had nothing against militancy and that, indeed, he encouraged it, particularly in the N.U.S. But many questions will be asked by the rank and file trade unionists.
  I have long experience as a trade unionist, as a member of one of the most active railway unions. I have taken part in local negotiations. I have been embroiled in three great strikes, when there was a complete turn-out of our membership. On no occasion was I aware of the strike being fomented or led by anyone with Communist opinions. The men had a case which was recognised and would have taken action anyhow. Pillars of the Church in my district were also pillars of the trade union movement, and they included the branch president and the branch secretary. The combination of trade unionism with Scottish Presby-terianism was unbeatable.
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  But the present situation is different. I recognise the enormous strain on the Prime Minister. In the present economic situation, he perhaps felt that the future of the Government was in some way imperilled, taking over, as they did, the adverse balance of payments from the party opposite and trying to struggle through, making some headway but going back into the ditch economically because of the strike. Nevertheless, we have a duty as Members of this House, and I accept my right hon. Friend's invitation that we should exercise it.
  I do not want to take the benefit of privilege, but we should speak out. Is there anything wrong in a person on an executive being so active that he influences other members of the executive? There will always be active people on every executive. There are active people in the Cabinet—some more active than others. There are outside influences that, to some extent, shape Cabinet policy and decisions, whether we like it or not. The very fact that there are outside influences is something that an executive can do very little about.
  I have no time for Communist philosophy, as the few Communists in my constituency know full well. But the Communists in this country are only a small band, as they are in the trade unions. The majority of trade unionists are members of the Labour Party, but there are many Tories in the unions— indeed, there are also some Liberals here and there. There has been far more interference by active Tories in decisions arrived at than there has ever been by the Communists.
  Sir Edward Brown: I am following the hon. Gentleman's remarks closely. Does not he agree that the active interest of Tory trade unionists—and I am one—is nevertheless in the interests of the society of Great Britain, whereas the influence of the Communists through infiltration—such as occurred in the E.T.U.—is in the interests of a foreign Power?
  Mr. Manuel: I will tell you that I have—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must address the hon. Member for Bath (Sir E. Brown) through the Chair.
  Mr. Manuel: I was trying to let the nan. Member for Bath down very gently, Mr. Speaker. I cannot find it in my heart to have any respect for a Tory trade unionist holding a position. I know that there are many Tories in the trade unions. I have been fighting them all my life and my constituents sent me here not to fight Communists— there are none in the House—but to fight Tories. The right hon. and learned Member for Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) makes speeches worse than any Communist ever made. The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone causes more strife and more argument and more industrial trouble because of that wicked forked tongue of his than any other hon. Member I know. He has had a great education, but look at the use he makes of it! Squandered! I wish that I had had the opportunity which his parents gave him. I would have done more for the country than the right hon. and learned Gentleman has done.
  We have to be very careful about deciding that the trade union movement can be so easily swayed by one or two individuals. I have had a great experience of the movement and there are many other hon. Members on this side of the House who have had even greater experience. Certainly I have played my part in the movement, and while it may be that in the larger cities there are these hole-and-corner meetings and manipulations, I have not come across them in Central Ayrshire or in my travels in Scotland addressing trade union branch and political meetings. At any rate, such groups are in a minority. We have to be careful that my right hon. Friend's statements are not used by hon. Members opposite—and I hope that hon. Members opposite would not be supported by the Liberal Party in this—to try to fashion a weapon to alter the trade union structure in some way, or to attempt to do so. Such an attempt would never be successful.
  If there is to be alteration and streamlining—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) spoke of the great need to reform the structure of the trade union movement —and we can agree that in this modern society reforms are needed in the trade union movement as well as in the House
  1670
  of Commons—and nowhere is reform needed more than in the House of Commons—reform will come only from within that great movement itself.
  I therefore object to any tittle-tattle which suggests that this great movement will be destroyed because of the influences within it. Those influences are rare and do not count. This Labour Party grew out of the trade union movement, and the heart and soul and content of the movement are firmly established in a country which is committed to a democratic way of life and not to manoeuvres such as those about which suspicions have been thrown about the Chamber today.
  I do not want to say more. I wanted to put it on the record that, while recognising the tremendous strain which the Prime Minister is under, recognising his great ability and what he has done for the country and recognising that we have all given him complete loyalty since he came to power as leader of the Labour Party, I believe that we have to preserve the right to put on the brake a little when we think that he is making a statement which might be misunderstood or which might weaken the trade union fabric. He may have given a great lever to those antitrade union forces represented by right hon. and hon. Members opposite who abhor the trade unions and who will do what they can to weaken their influence.
  7.5 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I deny at once the statement by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) that we on this side of the House have no place for trade unions or trade unionism. I listened very closely to what was said by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) about the need for hurrying on the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations. If nothing else comes out of this tragic debate this evening, perhaps we shall have a hurrying on of the Report of the Royal Commission and possibly an interim report to deal with one issue which appertains to the shipping strike and which was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Easington, the subject of coastal shipping. One thing which has emerged from the strike is the need to develop a separate union for coastal

  1671
  shipping and a separate union for deep sea shipping.
  In view of what some of us have felt from personal experience of what is happening in the strike, feelings which the Prime Minister confirmed this afternoon, I can understand why the Government took some of the measures which they have taken. What we have been witnessing, as the Prime Minister said, has been a battle for power in the union itself just as much as a desire to better the conditions of the seamen. For some time, some of us have been pressing for amendment of the 1894 Act. I have been pressing for its amendment ever since the strike in Harwich in 1960, but we have never been led to believe that that might lead to strike action. I cannot remember the Prime Minister as Leader of the Opposition pressing for better conditions for seamen.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: Is the hon. Gentleman cogniscant of the fact that the Minister of Labour at that time gave a categorical promise to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and myself, on 23rd August, 1960, that the Government would amend the Act immediately the men returned to work from unofficial strike?
  Mr. Ridsdale: The point I am making is that the Government have not been under pressure to amend the Act. The impression which I have been getting, as the Prime Minister tended to confirm, has been that this has been a battle for power within the union as much as a battle to better the seamen's lot.
  As the Member for a constituency which has not only a number of seamen on strike, but also many retired people, more than 5,000 of them, on small fixed incomes who have benefited from rating relief legislation, I am naturally concerned about the strike's continuance and the effect which that will have on the cost of living. I know that seamen engaged on the Harwich-Continental route on average will have lost more than £100 in wages and in many cases far more than that at this time of seasonal peak earnings with tips and overtime. With a wage settlement estimated at providing a further £1 a week, it will take nearly two years for those men to get back what they and their families have
  1672
  already lost, and that period will increase by each day that the strike continues. What a lot these men have lost and how difficult it will be for them to get it back! What a responsibility the strike leaders have on their shoulders! A number of men have already spent their holiday pay, while others have spent their savings for old age, and there have been some examples of severe hardship. If a large number of these men were feeling strongly, I could understand them being prepared to make such a sacrifice, but I must admit that of the seamen I have met, the large majority want to go back to sea. I do not believe that their heart is now in the strike.
  After saying in the House that it was fear of intimidation, of being black-legged, that kept these men out, I was asked to substantiate what I had said In a discussion on television with one of the strike committee members. This I did, pointing out that in my view the threat of withdrawal, by the executive of the National Union of Seamen, of the T.C.F., the employment card, was a major factor in preventing quite a number of these men going back to work. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister said last week:
  "I make clear that as far as the Government are concerned we shall not stand for any victimisation of any individual by either side of industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th June, 1966; Vol. 729, c. 52.]
  Mr, Manuel: That is what hon. Gentlemen are doing every day.
  Mr. Ridsdale: Having had some close dealings with the seamen in Harwich during the course of this strike, I feel bound to say that I can understand the Prime Minister's feelings in wishing to expose some of the unseen pressures which have been exerted over this strike. All along I have felt that a very small minority has been exerting its will on the majority, especially from the centre. These pressures were certainly not spontaneous locally. Indeed, the Harwich seamen have tried, by constitutional union rules, to sway union opinion to adopt a moderate attitude. This is very much to their credit but it was because of this feeling of excessive centralised pressure that I pressed for a secret ballot.
  Let us not deceive ourselves. The kind of situation facing us today is largely

  1673
  due to apathy. We have been told that the present executive of the National Union of Seamen was elected by 5,000 votes out of a membership of 65,000.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is the hon. Member aware that it is only in recent months that the Tory Party have gone through an election for their leader?
  Mr. Ridsdale: I do not wish to be led astray by the red herring of the hon. Gentleman. The trouble with this strike is that it has been forced upon us by a small section of the community. The seamen are not alone. Prosperity has brought apathy, apathy which has led to a failure to see that we have the right executives on our associations, be they political, trade union or otherwise. If we do not alert ourselves to this, those with extreme views, because of their faith, and energy will overthrow our democratic processes and our freedom, which is in danger, will have vanished overnight.
  It is. high time that those who want to see the victory of common sense and moderation stirred themselves into action. I am sure that under 1 per cent, of the population is causing what we call the British sickness, because the vast majority of the population do not care. With such a situation a secret ballot is not enough. We have to clear away the apathy which stops the moderate man from playing his part, not only in the unions but in other organisations. If the Report of the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations, can tell us how to do this then I hope that we will hurry its completion along. I am sure that the root cause here does not lie in any thick blue book, however intellectual it is, or intelligently it may be written.
  The key must lie in leadership and in understanding to get over the boredom and apathy which today surrounds so many of our democratic institutions. It is for us on both sides of the House to accept the challenge as being one coming not just from the executive of the National Union of Seamen and directed against the Government, but as a challenge to the nation. Some of this may sound platitudinous, but I am sure that this is the heart of the matter, and is the sickness from which our industrial life is suffering today.
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  Democracy means accepting personal responsibility and personal participation. The attitude of "I could not care less" is a recipe for extremes and dictatorship. Somehow we have to see that the country realises that if we, of moderate opinion, do not support our organisations or unions, then the extremists will win and our industrial democracy will vanish overnight.
  The immediate task must be to get the seamen back to work. Given good will and understanding, which I am sure is there now in the coast ports, especially on the leave question, I believe that we could do this. I know that the fight of the seamen will not be in vain but above all I am convinced that it is the apathy of the moderate man, the apathy of prosperity, which causes people not to go along and join their organisations. It is that which is putting our democratic processes in danger and this is fundamental to the problems in our industrial democracy today.
  7.17 p.m.
  Mr. Eric S. Heller: I have been involved with seamen for many years, both as a Member of Parliament for Walton and also as a trade unionist in the port of Liverpool. I can remember that since 1946 there have been two official disputes and one official strike. The 1947 seamen's dispute in Liverpool and other parts of the country took place because the union was failing to respond to the opinions and demands of its rank and file. Everyone says now what we knew then—that there has to be a cleaning up inside the National Union of Seamen.
  In 1960 my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) and myself were appointed by the Liverpool Trades Council and Labour Party to be the mediators in that official strike. I can assure the House that I understand the pressures which the Minister of Labour has suffered in the past few weeks.
  We worked night and day in order to get a settlement in that dispute. We were not really negotiating between the shipowners on the one hand and the seamen on the other. At that stage most of our negotiations were between the general secretary and the officials of the National Union of Seamen, and

  1675
  the rank and file seamen, through their unofficially elected members in the various ports. We said to the seamen in 1960, "We think that your case is right, but it is wrong for you to act outside of your trade union. Your job, your responsibility, is to get into your union and make it work". The seamen did precisely that. They went into their union. They decided to make it a democratic body. They have made it a democratic body. Some people say that to have 48 members of an executive is ridiculous. Perhaps it is too many. But the seamen must decide that. If there are 48 democratically elected representatives coming from all the major and minor ports, obviously they are reacting to the demands of their rank and file who have elected them.
  I listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister with a great deal of sadness. It does not give me any joy to say some of the things that I am about to say. As my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) said, most of my right hon. Friend's speech was an analysis of the background to the union. I have given some additional facts based on experience of the position in the union.
  Names have been mentioned. Somebody has had some association with or met some Communists. The district secretary of my union was a man called Leo McGree, who is still alive. He was my district secretary from the first day that I joined the union—a Communist. When he retired, the entire trade union movement in Liverpool—Right-wingers, Left-wingers, centre-ists, Tories perhaps who were trade unionists—made a great collection. They collected £1,000. They gave him a new car and some money so that he could have some of the comforts of life in his retirement. That was what the Liverpool trade union movement thought of Leo McGree, the Communist.
  Did hon. Members see Dick Etheridge on the television? I did. I am not a Communist, and I do not agree with the Communist Party. It threw me out. But, as far as I am concerned, the Communist Party is still a legal organisation in this country.
  As I say, names were mentioned. My friend Joe Kenny was mentioned. He is
  1676
  not only a personal friend of mine but for 16 years has been a member of my constituency Labour Party. Of course he knows about the seamen's problems. Of course he knows how to argue skilfully in relation to the seamen. Perhaps he learned some of that from me; I do not know. I hope that some of what I had to say has rubbed off. Joe is skilled in relation to the seamen because he is a seaman and industrially lives this question day in and day out. While he was in London, he lived in a flat with Jim Slater and another Liverpool man called Jack Coward. He was in the International Brigade. He was caught by the Franco Forces, was put in Franco gaols and suffered there for many years. When he came home to this country, his hair was bleached white as a result of his suffering.
  I know these people. Jack Coward is a Communist, but he is a damned good honest working man. I do not agree with his politics. I think that his political ideas are wrong. He offered to let Jim Slater and Joe Kenny live in his flat while they were in London during the dispute. Bert Ramelson, the industrial organiser, went along and perhaps took advantage of the situation and talked to Joe Kenny and Jim Slater at the same time. What great conspiracy is this? Is it guilt by association? Perhaps I am in the dossier to which reference has been made. [HON. MEMBERS: "The hon. Member is."] Oh, I am. I will tell the House why.
  When this strike broke out, I knew that there were Liverpool seamen from my constituency here in London on strike. As a Liverpool Member of Parliament, I decided that it was my responsibility to go down to the seamen's headquarters in the London Docks and find out what it was all about and to add a bit more background information to what I knew already. When I got there, whom did I meet? There were about 12 people, one of whom was Jack Coward and another chap called Norris. It was only as I left the place that my wife, who was with me, said, "That chap was on television. He is a Communist". Therefore, I am as guilty as Joe Kenny and Jim Slater and anyone else, because I have talked to some Communists.
  I know Jack Roger Woods. I did not know that he was a Communist until the

  1677
  Prime Minister said so. I imagine that, on the basis of Liverpool experience, 90 per cent. of the Liverpool strike committee are good Roman Catholics as, incidentally, is Joe Kenny. This is a very dangerous thing which has been done in this country.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) said that he would not get a post in the Government now. I am young enough to be offered a post in the Government. Everybody when he comes to the House wants to do a positive job. I do not care about posts in the Government if it means that we cannot stand up and honestly say what is required. I do not care if I never get a job in this Government or any other Government.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: One has to crawl to do it.
  Mr. Heffer: When people are, in my opinion, wrongly attacked, the time has come to stand up and be counted. That is not defending Communism. It is defending the basic democratic rights of the British people for which we have always fought over the years. I did not know that guilt by association was one of those basic democratic rights.
  I do not wish to speak at length. I have a wad of notes here which I have not looked at, and I do not intend to look at them. But I want to say one or two words about the way in which this strike has been handled.
  I said in the last debate that if ever there was ineptness in handling an industrial dispute this was the acme of ineptness. On the first full day of the dispute, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister went on the television and said, "This is a battle against the prices and incomes policy", making it a political issue from the word "go". How do hon. Members think the seamen felt? I should think that they felt sick at that television broadcast. Of course, the employers were pretty happy about it. One can hide very nicely behind the skirts of speeches like that. One does not have to do a damn thing about getting round the table and trying to reach a compromise.
  We had another episode. After a while, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour decided that the time had come to get the National Union of Sea-
  1678
  men into one room and the employers in another. At the very moment that my right hon. Friend was getting them together in the same building, although not round the same table, we were declaring a state of emergency in the House. That is absolutely brilliant! That is exactly the way to get a strike settled.
  What else did we do? I kept in touch, as some of my hon. Friends have done, with some of the lads on the seamen's executive. We have given our advice. They have not always taken it. We tried to help behind the scenes to get a reasonable solution. We knew that a. movement was being made for a solution and that the leave question was now the central issue.
  Approaches were made by my hon. Friends and myself to the Prime Minister to explain the situation. The previous day he was to meet the N.U.S. executive. On the following day a statement was made in the House, arising out of questions, that in no circumstances would there be any advance on the Pearson Report. Who are the seamen fighting? The Government or the shipowners? Unfortunately, it has been made an issue between the Government and the seamen, and the shipowners have been out of the picture practically throughout. Now that they have been brought back in, it is still as difficult as ever to get any further advance for the seamen.
  This whole strike has been a great tragedy indeed for the Labour movement and for the people of the country. It has been a great tragedy, first because of the ineptitude of the way the dispute has been handled, but also because of the new dimension which has been introduced in the British Labour movement and in British politics that if one knows a Communist there could be something sinister in it.
  My right hon. Friend made a great deal about the unanimity of the executive of the union. What is wrong with the unanimity of the executive of the union? We are always being told in the Parliamentary Labour Party that it is a good thing if we have a unanimous decision. It has even been suggested that it is better if we do not have a vote at all, but yet it is implied that it is rather sinister because the executive of the union has been unanimous. Does anybody believe that two men, as my hon. Friend

  1679
  the Member for Poplar said, could dominate 48 others? If they did, it was for only one reason: that their arguments were more persuasive and obviously reflected the feelings of the others and caught more of a responsive chord than anybody else on the executive.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister can talk about persuasiveness. I have heard him speak many times inside and outside this House. He has persuaded me on pure logic and argument that what he was saying was right. No outside pressures were applied to me and to my hon. Friends in supporting the Government in what they have been doing. There was only the pressure of argument and the conviction that it was correct.
  Some of the statements which have been made have implied that the seamen's executive were a lot of stupid nits. I do not believe that they are. I want us to go on—[Interruption.] If I am a nit, then so are you.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Even that must be put in a Parliamentary way.
  Mr. Heffer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not like being put off by people mumbling in their beards when one is trying to put a serious case to the House.
  I understand that the negotiations have again practically broken down. This is again a tragedy. I appeal to the Government not to dash in once again and give the impression that it is the seamen who are wrong in every sphere of the argument. Put the pressure where it is really needed—on the shipowners. If they will not respond, do what it is possible to do under the emergency powers. Take over the shipping industry, run it on behalf of the nation, and make certain that the seamen get a square deal.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: This is a debate which undoubtedly has aroused passion and sincerity. I am quite sure that all of us respect the passion and sincerity shown by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). The hon. Member concluded by saying that one remedy was for the nation to take over the shipping industry. Before I pass on to more serious points, I should like to direct the hon.
  1680
  Member's attention to the consequence of what has happened in the United States, where the wage level in the shipping industry has been raised to such a point that the nation has virtually had to do that and that the subsidy costs to the United States Government for the United States shipping industry are now running at several hundred million dollars a year. That is one solution, but the consequences are costly.
  I should dclare my interest. This is a debate in which assertions of conspiracy are flung about, and I would not like it to be thought that I had not declared my interest. I have had a long, continuing and, for my part, greatly valued association with one of our great liner companies. I joined that company in 1956 with all the zeal of the reforming economist. Only those who have been at the receiving end of such zeal can know sometimes what a devastating effect it has.
  No one at that time could have been more critical than I of some of the components of management and of the efficiency of the industry. In some cases I was right and in others I was wrong. The industry was tolerant of my criticisms and indulgent towards my mistakes. I pay this tribute to it when it could easily have reacted in another way. It turned to me and said, "See what you can do in a constructive fashion about this." It gave me superb opportunities to travel widely throughout not only Europe, but virtually the globe, and to bring back whatever I could to improve the efficiency and the performance of the industry.
  I am not, perhaps, the ideal advocate for the industry, but it appears that I am this evening almost the only one. The industry has been brought to the Bar of the House and no less a person than the Prime Minister himself has seriously criticised its efficiency.
  This point must be taken up. I endeavoured to do so in an intervention when, for obvious reasons, it was impossible to deploy a case. I wish, however, to make this serious point about the industry and its efficiency. One of the most futile terms which can be used today is the word "efficiency" employed to a collection of 300 or 400 firms. It is almost a collective stupidity.
  Every industry of that size, whether shipping or any other, in which there are

  1681
  some 300 or 400 units, must clearly display a spectrum of efficiency, of profitability and of productivity. This applies to the shipping industry, to the steel industry and to almost every industry which any Member of the House could name. It applies to almost any industry which is the subject of the reports of the Anglo-American Council on Productivity, whose teams went to the United States after surveying industries in this country shortly after the war. The late Sir Stafford Cripps was the great inspiration. The theme throughout all the teams' reports was that of a performance spectrum.
  The other point which I should like to make is about the industry and the shipowners. Can we get away from the idea that because there are a few extremely wealthy shipowners, which no one would dispute, that is the picture which the nation should have of the shipowners? In the case of the company about which I have most information, I know that there are some 6,000 shareholders, and the average size of their holdings is of the order of £200. When we talk about the shipowners, let us think about those 6,000 shareholders. When we think about the shipping industry, let us multiply that 6,000 by whatever the appropriate figure is to make a collectivisation of 400 firms. It comes to between 100,000 and 200,000 shareholders, all of whom probably own, on average, £200 worth or less of shares in their companies.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: As the hon. Member is in possession of all these figures, can he tell us how many ship's firemen hold any of these shares?
  Mr. Lloyd: Obviously I do not have that information, but I wish that a great many ship's firemen held shares. I am a great believer in the widest possible dispersion of share ownership. It is the greatest antidote to all the nonsense which we hear time and time again.
  If one goes one stage further, ignores individual holdings and takes the proportion of shares which are held by insurance companies, one can see how that represents a further dispersion of a national interest in the shipping industry, and we come somewhere near the truth in this matter.
  The Prime Minister obviously did not have the time to examine in detail the
  1682
  efficiency of the industry. I suggest that there are probably five main variants. The first is the question of propulsion, the hull form and capacity. That is a physical phenomenon which has been the subject of prolonged and lengthy research over the years. The industry can be critcised on that score, and it has recently had to concede advances to the Japanese, but it is by no means behind them in the extent and measure of the technical research which it is doing. It is spending some £1 million per annum, which is a higher level than the United States, and, therefore, probably a higher level than any other major maritime country.
  Mr. S. J. Bidwell: Will the hon. Member not agree that the National Union of Seamen has itself gone a great way along the road to assist the industry to modernise itself?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am sure that the N.U.S. has gone along that road. It is in the Union's interest that it should. I was going to suggest later on that it is in the further interests of the N.U.S. that it should end this nonsense and co-operate with the industry to facilitate further travel along the road, which is the only lasting and certain guarantee of high level incomes and living standards for those employed in the industry.
  May I turn to the second element of efficiency? I referred briefly this afternoon to docks. The efficiency of the shipping industry is now widely seen to turn more than an any other factor on the efficiency with which cargo can be loaded on and off shnps. Certainly the ships can have their efficiency raised. Manning can be reduced. But if one looks at the operating costs of a shipping company and the total limit within which the industry now has to operate, the key at each end lies in the ports and their efficiency and the cost of handling cargo on and off the ship. It is not entirely outside the shipowners' control, but I suggest that it is one of the most difficult economic environments within which any industry has to operate. If there is a wide range of restrictive practices limiting the ability of the industry to modernise itself in the docks, not only in this country but sometimes in inefficient docks systems in other countries, there lies one of the keys to the inability of the industry to modernise

  1683
  as quickly as it would like to do and as hon. Members opposite would like it to do.
  Ships can be run with fewer men. The Scandinavians have shown how it can be done. They are operating very large tankers with 24 or 26 men. Our industry has been conscious of that and has been seeking to reduce manning scales wherever possible. But it is quite outside the shipowners' control. It is within the control of a joint body, and the owners can only move as fact as the N.U.S. permits them to move. That may be right, but let it not be implied that the shipping industry is completely its own master in matters of this kind.
  Mr. Heffer: Who is responsible for the failure to develop bulk carriers in this country? Secondly, up till now, who has been responsible for failing to develop the container system for shipping? Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that it has been the N.U.S.?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am glad that the hon. Member for Walton has raised those two points. British shipowners would be the first to say that in the vital years since the war others have taken the lead which they would like to have taken. But the fiscal and economic environments in Britain in the years after the war were less favourable to the British shipowner than some of his competitors found who, as a result, have been able to make considerable advances.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned container traffic. In 1959 I crossed to the United States to see what was going on there, and I have kept in close touch with the development of container traffic ever since. However, the hon. Gentleman is obviously more concerned with a private conversation than with my answer to his question, so I shall not take it any further.
  I want now to refer to the commercial and financial aspects of efficiency. The Prime Minister did not refer to them, because those aspects of efficiency are impeded by the Selective Employment Tax. Even the shipping industry has to sell its services. That is done largely from head offices within the United Kingdom, and it is a type of activity which,
  1684
  generally speaking, will suffer a penal taxation.
  The survival of the industry in the last ten years in many cases has depended on the most skilled financial advice which it could employ. The fact that it has survived is a pointer to two things. The first is that the industries have the wit to do it. The second thing is that it lives in a fiscal environment in which that advice is probably the most important single aspect of management. The Prime Minister did not refer to it because, quite clearly, it is yet another aspect of the general hostility in the environment to free enterprise in shipping which he would prefer not to discuss.
  The industry has been criticised for failing to move with the times over the Merchant Shipping Act. I am sure that the industry will be the first to admit that the Act needs drastic reform. However, in September 1963 the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, started a series of meetings with both sides of the industry directed specically towards the reform of that Act. He tells me that those meetings were held regularly and continuously until the Conservative Government went out of office. What do hon. Members opposite say to that? Could the industry have done more? If it could, why has not more been done since the present Government came to power? A great deal was being done, but no one has referred to it, because it is inconvenient to refer to it. It is much easier to say, "Here is this obsolete Act, with this industry sheltering behind it." That is easy to say, but it is not the truth, and it is time that our judgments in these matters were based on the truth.
  With regard to the criticism that the industry has tended to focus on the question of conditions in ships, I would make but this simple point that the shiping industry, while it employs vessels which have an average life of about 20 years, will always be exposed to this type of criticism, because in any fleet, not only the British Merchant Marine, there will always be ships which are at least 20 years old, and on these ships it is not possible to have conditions equivalent to those on ships which are being built now.
  This is a fact of life which nothing that we can do in the House of Commons

  1685
  can alter. It is a fact of life which we ought to recognise. We can say that conditions in these very old ships are so bad that by legislative or other means we shall drive them out of economic employment. If this is what we believe, let us define the conditions. Let us define the ships which fall within these conditions, and then we will know where we are. We will also know the economic cost to the nation—because this is a point of which we cannot lose the sight—of raising the conditions, and cutting off in the 20th, 19th, 18th, or 17th year, or whatever point one chooses, the level of acceptability of ships.
  I turn now to deal with the Emergency Powers Act. The question I ask myself is, emergency powers for what? Are these emergency powers required to deal with the consequences of the strike, or are they, as I have suggested, emergency powers to deal with the consequences of inflation? It seems to me that the wage claim which is the subject of this strike— and four-fifths of the wage claims which have been made in Britain since the war —is a wage claim against inflation.
  I go further and say that four-fifths of the strikes which have taken place in this country since the war have been strikes against the consequences of inflation. One can go further and say that four-fifths of every wage claim which is conceded is dissipated by inflation within the following eight months. Therefore, is it not time that we redirected four-fifths of our argument to the fundamental causes of the economic malaise which faces the country today?
  We need emergency powers against an automatic mechanism whereby the money supply of Great Britain is automatically increased to meet the requirements of demand cost inflation. We need political courage to tackle the causes, and not the symptoms. It is widely recognised now, surely, that inflation is the most efficient and corrosive solvent of the social structure ever devised, and people are beginning to use this fact in a way which cannot be regarded as in the national interest.
  If we do not show the courage to face reality in this House of Commons, this House will become
  "A fiery soul, which working out its way, Fretted the pigmy body to decay."
  1686
  We can and must do something more than fret. Before we can inspire the nation, we must inspire ourselves. The best way to do this is to bring Ceasar up to date, this Island is not divided into two parts, employers and employees, but three, employers, employees, and the public, and it is high time that the ghost which has been kept away from every conference table was brought back, re-embodied and given voice.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: At the end of my remarks I shall return to the larger discussion to which the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) was referring, the question of inflation and the economic consequences of what we are discussing today. I should like first to refer to some of the other things which have been said in the debate.
  At the beginning of his speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) chided my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) because, he said, he found my hon. Friend in a curious temporary association with the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch). I do not know whether my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington was aware of what happened to him at the end of his speech. He received a number of cheers from the other side of the House, and since then there has been hardly a speaker from the benches opposite who has failed to compliment my right hon. Friend on the main core of his speech, so I think my right hon. Friend should be a little careful of making these accusations by the method of association.
  One of my main criticisms of what the Government appear to have unleashed by the policy which they have followed in these matters is that they have given great encouragement to some hon. Gentlemen opposite in the action which they wish to take about the trade unions, action which the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) did not fail to exploit in his speech, in particular the proposal that he now makes in this debate—and it is the one concrete proposal which has come out of the debate, and therefore I wish to refer to it—for an inquiry into the allegations which were made by the Prime Minister a week ago, and which have been repeated today, an inquiry which the right hon. Gentleman suggested

  1687
  might be done possibly under the Tribunals of Evidence Act.
  That was referred to by the Leader of the Liberal Party. I agree with the right hon. Member. I do not think that we would succeed in advancing our affairs very much by such an inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not think we would discover what pressures were being exerted on people in this House, much less on executives of trades unions by such inquiry. He said that we would not be able to discover by means of such an inquiry whether the brewers' lobby brought influence to bear on the Conservative Party, or whether the teetotal lobby brought influence to bear on the Liberal Party. What one might say about that is that the brewers are effective in one case, and not in the other.
  I am prepared to say that the Liberal Party is abstemious of its own free will, and no doubt the Conservative Party reaches such condition as it does without any outside pressure whatsoever, so I think it is true to say that we will not be able to solve these matters, because we will not be able to discover exactly what are the kinds of pressures which are exerted either on Members of this House or on executives of trade unions.
  But there is a much more powerful objection than that, as I am sure that the Leader of the Liberal Party would acknowledge. Indeed the right hon. Gentleman referred to it, or suggested that he would refer to it. There is a much bigger objection to this kind of wide-ranging tribunal. I become more and more opposed to it every time I hear about it, and on every occasion I have opposed the institution of these tribunals of inquiry.
  I was surprised to see the right hon. Member for Flint, West come out in favour of such an inquiry. He once kicked up a big row about it, and indeed I thought it was a decision of this House that we should set up an examination into whether we should have any more of these tribunals in the future, because in the past we had seen that they had inflicted such grievous injustices on individuals.
  I think that the right hon. Gentleman —that is if he was making a serious proposal—should have considered this
  1688
  afresh, because if it is wrong, as I believe it is, to have tribunals to investigate the kind of specific matters which arose in, say, the Vassall case, or in earlier cases on which it was thought unnecessary to have these inquiries because they would inflict hardship, it is even more wrong to want an inquiry into a vague charge of Communist association.
  The right hon. Gentleman contended that he was speaking in the name of individual freedom. If he was serious— and I am still not sure whether he was— he was asking for an inquiry which, if it were set up, would be a kind of glorified McCarthy inquiry, and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will be opposed to any such investigation.
  Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is allowing his argument to run away with itself. To begin with, I was deliberately not speaking only about an inquiry under the Tribunals of Evidence Act, 1921. I said that this was one method. In fact, I think that if the hon. Gentleman looks at past history he will see that each tribunal of inquiry has learnt from the mistakes of its predecessor. The problem which the hon. Gentleman raised could be avoided or we could have another form of inquiry. In any case, I was serious about this because charges have been made against individuals under privilege which they have no way of dealing with because the matters cannot be stated in public outside the House except before an inquiry.
  Mr. Foot: I am coming to the question of charges made against individuals. First, however, it is quite proper for me to deal with the remedy proposed by the Leader of the Opposition, and to say that this would make the disease worse, because we would have a tribunal investigating wide, unspecified charges of Communist pressure and association with trade unions. Nothing could be more injurious, not merely to individual freedom but to the economic welfare of the country. If anybody thinks that we can help to solve the economic problems of the country by an inquiry of this nature he should consider the question again.
  Mr. Heath: But charges can be quite specific, and a tribunal can inquire into something quite specific. The Government, through the Prime Minister, said that the executive was not its own master.

  1689
  Nobody has ever accused the House of not being its own master because of lobbying by somebody else.
  Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman may hold the view that the deficiencies of this tribunal have been removed. In my view they have not. I recall that in each case when a tribunal of this sort has been set up an injustice has been done to some individual—often to someone whose name had not previously been associated with the inquiry. That is what happens once there is this wide-ranging inquiry, in which there is no specific charge and no one knows the accusation against which he must defend himself— which is always the case under the Tribunals of Inquiry Act. That is why some of us have fought against it, and why I would oppose such an inquiry today. I hope that anybody who is genuinely in favour of protecting individual freedom would oppose the one concrete suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman for dealing with the situation.
  I now turn to the question of privilege, to which the Prime Minister devoted a prominent section of his speech. There may be circumstances in which privilege has to be invoked to protect free speech in the House. I would not say that it should necessarily be altogether excluded, although there might be an argument for doing that. But if we are going to invoke privilege to protect ourselves because of what we say in this House we must do so with extreme care, because what we are doing when we invoke privilege is to say, "We have rights in this House which the rest of the citizens of this country do not have," and we remove ourselves from a section of the law which applies to the rest of the citizens of this country.
  If we do that we must do so with extreme care, and only when it can be clearly shown that the national interest is absolutely paramount. Only in such circumstances have the Government, the Prime Minister or anyone else the right to invoke privilege.
  Mr. Peter Tapsell: The hon. Member's definition of Parliamentary privilege is not a satisfactory one. Although I am not a lawyer, in my view it is more accurate to define privilege as being executed by us on behalf of our constituents—as their representatives.
  1690
  It is their privilege that we are exercising, and not our own.
  Mr. Foot: That is a very fanciful definition. The fact is that all the other citizens of this country are subject to the laws of libel and slander, but we say that we are exempt from those laws. That is confirmation of what I say, namely, that when we invoke privilege we are in that sense exempt from laws which apply to the rest of our citizens.
  If we do not like the libel and slander laws we should change them. We must be very careful when invoking privilege on our own behalf. Everybody using privilege in order to say something in the House of Commons—and particularly in order to name individuals—should think twice, thrice and again before doing it. It can be extremely unfair, as it is in this instance.
  Before I leave the question of privilege I must tell the Prime Minister that although, as he says, privilege has been used in this House to protect the national interest and our freedoms, it is also true that over many decades or centuries privilege has been used in this House to deny genuine freedom to people outside. That is the history of the eighteenth century—the history of the fight Members had to get published what they said in the House. It was a fight against privilege. The Prime Minister must therefore be careful in invoking privilege, and doubly careful in using it to mention names. That is perhaps the reason why he did not use names on the previous occasion.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar has also proved in a deadly manner that when the Prime Minister made his statement last Monday he was making an accusation—at any rate against the 46 members of the executive—which he was not entitled to make, in view of the statement that he has made today. What about the other two? I listened with extreme care to what my right hon. Friend said. I heard him describe how Communists and others had advocated the spreading of the strike. I understood him to say that they had urged other people to come in and support the strike. None of this is exceptional.
  I listened with extreme care to what he said about Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater. I listened as carefully as anybody, and

  1691
  so far as I am concerned Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater leave this debate with an absolutely clean sheet. There is not a thing against them. There has not been one accusation, except that they had pressed their argument with great power and force. My right hon. Friend can press an argument with great power and great force. We might call him the Mr. Kenny of the House of Commons. He can persuade a lot of people. That is what Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater are guilty of doing.
  It is no crime; indeed, in many respects it is an honourable thing to do. Last Monday the Prime Minister said:
  "It has been apparent for some time—and I do not say this without having good reason for saying it—that since the Court of Inquiry's Report a few individuals have brought pressure to bear on a select few on the executive council of the National Union of Seamen who in turn have been able to dominate the majority of that otherwise sturdy union."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th June, 1966; Vol. 730, c. 42.]
  I presume that Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater are included among those select few. So that is the formidable argument—that two members of the executive committee have been able to sway the other 46 members, who, apparently, are so feeble that they have given way to all the pressure exerted upon them.
  I do not believe that story. Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater may be misguided in their views as to how the strike should proceed. In my view—although it is very easy to say this, from the outside—it would have been wise for the seamen to accept the decision of the Pearson Inquiry. But I can understand people who take a different view.
  It must be clear to everybody that Mr. Slater and Mr. Kenny leave this debate without any stain on their characters. In that case, what is the debate about? Why was the original charge made by the Prime Minister? What about the others? One or two of them are known Communists. They have probably expressed their Communist views, but that is not a crime. The Prime Minister said there was nothing illegal about it.
  The Prime Minister: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Foot: My right hon. Friend says, "Hear, hear," but he went on in his speech to refer to "terrifying" and
  1692
  "terrorising". I hope that those adjectives do not apply to Mr. Kenny or Mr. Slater, or any of the other people who have been named. They ought to be distinguished.
  I come back to what I was saying, that if one is to invoke privilege, one must do it with the utmost care. If one is going to name people, one must say exactly what the crime is and exactly what the charge is. My complaint against the Prime Minister's conduct of the dispute in this respect is that he has not specified the accusation against these people. All those who have been named, leave this debate with nothing against them, nothing whatsoever except that they have advocated their extreme views with considerable skill and force. That is all they have done—
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: Would the hon. Gentleman not concede that this difficulty which he is describing arises from the simple fact that national economic sabotage is not a crime in our law?
  Mr. Foot: I am sure that not the Prime Minister nor the Leader of the Opposition nor anybody else in the House will be thankful for the support of the hon. Gentleman. If we are to have a new crime of national economic sabotage because people advocate the views in which they believe, he would be one of the first put behind bars, and he would find many of the shipowners there with him.
  This leads me to the further question about the dispute, the real one which we ought to be discussing. One of my complaints against the Prime Minister's conduct is that, by the introduction of this whole issue of the so-called illicit pressure which has been exerted—although, as I have tried to illustrate, this has not been the accusation —one of the dangers of this method of controversy is that the House of Commons and the country and, of course, the newspapers are all diverted from the real problems which we ought to be facing, the real problems of the dispute and the economic situation. The real question which should be asked about the dispute itself is, did the Government take all the steps prior to the dispute resolving itself into strike action which they should have taken to prevent the strike?

  1693
  On their own testimony the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour— I do not like to attack him in his absence but we are perfectly entitled to criticise him—did not take every step to deal with the strike before it became a strike. The Government did not say to the ship-owners before the strike started that they ought to concede what the Pearson inquiry said they ought to concede, nor did the Government say before the strike started that they ought to consider the measures which are now being proposed about leave time.
  All these proposals could have been urged upon the shipowners by the Government before the strike occurred. Who knows whether they would have averted the strike or not? This is anybody's guess, but they should have been tried, especially, as my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar has underlined, when the tone of the Prime Minister's speech today and in the last week or so on this aspect of the strike has been very different from the tone he adopted a few weeks ago, and very different also from the tone of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the eve of the introduction of the emergency powers.
  I was here that night, as were many other hon. Members, on the eve of the introduction of the emergency powers, when many of us urged—my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) constantly urged with great authority and wisdom—that pressure should be brought upon the shipowners. But in that debate, on the eve of the emergency powers being introduced, the Chancellor said that that would be a wrong moment for the Government to bring pressure upon the shipowners in this respect.
  The Government have neglected many of the measures which they should have taken to avert the strike, which makes it all the worse that they should have resorted to the kind of accusations which, as we now see, have precious little foundation.
  There is another aspect of this matter. I am not saying—nobody could say for certain—that, if the Government had urged upon the shipowners originally the concessions which we will have to make to the seamen after 40 or 50 days of the strike, the strike might have been post-
  1694
  poned. It might have been worth trying, particularly as we were saying that we were doing everything in our power to assist the seamen and a union which had suffered hardships and deprivations in the past. It would have been worth offering. The Minister of Labour bears a heavy responsibility for not having urged these proposals on the shipowners earlier, and the whole Government must share the responsibility with him. Nobody can say for certain whether this would have won the allegiance of the seamen, but this is the real issue which we should be debating and the question which the Government should put to themselves.
  It is no good their thinking that they have massive support in the House. What is the support outside and the support from the seamen? The seamen are as patriotic as any other citizens. The seamen want to see the success of this Government as much as any other section of the community. They probably played as big a part in helping the Government to be returned to power as almost any other section. Therefore, why have the Government not been able to command the allegiance of the seamen? Let them ask that question. If they do ask the question, I believe that they must come to the answer, that they have gone about their incomes policy in the wrong way and that, prior to the attempt to win the allegiance of the seamen in support of their incomes policy, they have taken a series of other measures to undermine support for their incomes policy.
  They have taken this action with the judges and with the doctors. I remember very well sitting up for a whole night last July in the debate arguing against the increase in the judges' salaries, which came into operation in April. I remember arguing against it during the night. We were told that it had to be done because it was part of a bargain. It was a most absurd bargain. We tried to warn the Government, more than a year ago. We said, "If you proceed with policies of this nature and say that we must vote huge increases for sections of the community like the judges, you will not be able to win the allegiance of the whole community for your incomes policy." We argued it all night. They took no notice. We were told that it had to be done. But who was right about those warnings?

  1695
  The same thing applies in a different degree to the doctors. I do not say that many of them did not deserve an increase; of course they did. I do not say that other factors did not concern them. But if we are to win the allegiance of the community to the prices and incomes policy, we must take stern measures, of which I am in favour.
  We should have had a Budget to deal with this subject, but the Budget took no action against the richer sections of the community which would have persuaded the seamen that there would be a fair sharing of the national wealth. Why, in the Government's Budget, did we not revoke the concessions which were given by the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) to Surtax payers? If the Government had done that, they would have raised about £80 million, £20 million of it in unearned income, and would have had a better chance of saying to the seamen, "We are trying to work out an incomes policy which will be fair. We cannot do it all at once, but we are really making a start."
  These are the real lessons of the dispute. When the dispute is over, the Government will still be left with the question, how are they to command the allegiance of the people of this country for a fair incomes policy? They cannot do it the way they are going. This is what concerns them. They will have to change their policies and introduce measures of taxation, because that is the only way of sharing fairly the nation's wealth. That is the way in which to appeal to people who are much worse off.
  If the Government had been really intelligent, they would have introduced the kind of Budget which I have described and have said, when the seamen put in their demand, that one of the purposes of their incomes policy was precisely to help people like the seamen, not to hold them back, that this was the idea.
  If the Government had done that in the case of the seamen, I believe that they would command far greater allegiance throughout the country. That is what some of us are arguing and that is why some of us are horrified that this debate on the economic affairs of the nation and the economic success of this Government,
  1696
  which is what we wish to see, should be diverted into this absurd channel of yelling, "Yah, Communist!", and seeking for Communists under the bed, over the bed or anywhere else. This is to reduce the great problems that we must solve to a fifth-rate level.
  The Government must alleviate the whole situation and that can be done only by deeds. It cannot be done by words. They must perform deeds which will arouse fierce antipathy from hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are not in favour of sharing the nation's wealth. They do not mind the seamen being done down, although they do not want other sections of the nation to be dealt with in an effective manner.
  If we had a Government who put such proposals forward there would be fierce yells of opposition from hon. Gentlemen opposite. Then the Government would have a better chance of commanding the allegiance of the seamen. It is more important for the Government to have the allegiance of the seamen than to have any common ground of policy with hon. Gentlemen opposite. We are warning the Government in good time. It is not only a question of wages and incomes, although it is extremely important that there should be a proper sharing of the nation's wealth, because there are many other things in which we believe and to which we are pledged, like better pensions, better education, a better Health Service and so on. They are all lagging behind the proposals in the National Plan.
  If we are to speed forward with these policies, the Government must take much more courageous measures than we have yet seen from them. I hope that, when this debate ends, nobody will think of the absurd proposal to set up a tribunal of inquiry. I hope that we will have no more of these accusations which, on analysis, have been shown to be unprovable and unfounded. I hope that the Government will consider their policies and try to answer this question: why is it that the seamen, who helped to return this Government to power and who are eager for this country's success, did not respond to the appeals which the Government made to them?
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Aidan Crawley: The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale

  1697
  (Mr. Michael Foot) objected strongly to the Prime Minister's speech. I object less to what the Prime Minister said and rather more to some of the things he did not say. We are being asked to give enormous powers to the Government, powers which will allow them to dispense with almost every regulation which normally governs the docks, ships and transport. It is right, therefore, that we should look carefully at the reasons why the Government should attain such powers.
  The Prime Minister admitted that the seamen have grievances. He did not admit that the Government had any responsibility for the fact that these grievances led to a strike. Yet I believe that it has been largely the action of the Government in handling this strike and other disputes—in particular the action of the Prime Minister—that has been responsible for this strike.
  The origin of the strike may well be found to lie in the right hon. Gentleman's handling of the dispute with the railway-men last summer. I know that the Prime Minister feels that he made no concession to the railwaymen, but I have yet to meet a trade unionist—the Cabinet having said that no further talks should take place with the railwaymen—who does not agree that, after that, the Prime Minister saw them and allowed further talks to take place provided the strike was called off. In doing that the right hon. Gentleman struck a blow against moderate trade unionism and encouraged everyone who believes that strikes should go on till the last moment.
  The Prime Minister: Before the hon. Gentleman continues, I hope that the trade unionists with whom he talked were better informed than he is. There was no question of handling the issue of the railway trade unions last summer. That occurred on 12th February this year. Secondly, we never said that there would be no talks whatever. That would be a ridiculous thing to say, but there were no concessions made in the Downing Street talks beyond those offered in the previous discussions.
  Mr. Crawley: The right hon. Gentleman's colleague said that the Government had nothing further to say to the railwaymen.
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend simply meant that the railwaymen were asking for further concessions beyond those proposed by the Prices and Incomes Board; what my right hon. Friend said nine days before I met them and had offered them in interpretation of the Board's Report. When various of my right hon. Friends said that we had nothing more to say, we meant that if we met them we would not go beyond that Report, as interpreted by my right hon. Friend, and, when we met them, we did not go beyond what my right hon. Friend had said to them.
  Mr. Crawley: That explanation may satisfy the Prime Minister, but some of the seamen and the members of their executive, with whom I have talked, felt that they only had to carry their movements to the point of strike and to get to see the Prime Minister and they would then get some concessions. One of the facts about this strike has been the bitterness towards the Prime Minister on the part of the members of the seamen's executive. I do not think that they were necessarily justified in expecting the right hon. Gentleman to make such concessions, but they certainly did expect them and their bitterness, when they found that he had nothing to offer them, is one reason why this strike has gone on for this length of time.
  The Prime Minister said that the granting of an inquiry while the strike was proceeding was unprecedented. I consider it a bad precedent. Everyone knew that the inquiry would grant concessions and, when it did, all the militants in the seamen's union felt that they had that under their belts and that if they held on a little longer they would get more concessions. As I say, it was a bad precedent, and this point has also been responsible for the continuance of the strike.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in addition to the concessions the inquiry took away from the seamen something which they had enjoyed for 13 years? Why should the seamen give up something which they had enjoyed for 13 years because the Government had set up an inquiry which they did not want?
  Mr. Crawley: On balance, I think that everyone is agreed that the Pearson Inquiry awarded more to the seamen than

  1699
  they had been offered previously. If something was taken away that is really irrelevant, because the seamen were offered more than they have been offered by the employers.
  The Prime Minister spoke of militancy. This is something of which the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) approves and which the Prime Minister admitted has a place in trade unionism. However, it is absurd to pretend that such a thing can help the industrial situation, and the Government are responsible in large measure for the militancy we have seen recently. The Industrial Disputes Act, passed last year, gave the green light to intimidation, as my hon. Friends warned at the time, and since then militancy has increased.
  The form of incomes policy which the Government are seeking to impose increases militancy. I know mat the seamen feel, I believe with some justification, that they are the victims of this policy. Of course, if inflation goes on as it is we may have to have a wages freeze, but that is not a policy. A repressive incomes policy, which is what the Government's policy is, will never succeed. One cannot in this country hold down wages and prices, except as an emergency and for a short time, because there are always too many special cases. We have seen half a dozen of them during the last year. To try to hold down wages and prices in such a way would involve compulsion to a degree which no British Government could sustain. There is only one form of incomes policy which will ever work. It is a policy which allows wages to rise with productivity. But that means a frontal assault on productivity and a frontal assault on restrictive practices.
  This is something which the Government have refused to face and have again passed off on to the Royal Commission. I have always believed that such a frontal assault is not only possible but practicable. It would involve management as well as the unions, because everything would be agreed between the two. If we made such a frontal assault, just as in the Restrictive Practices Court procedure the force of example brings about a revolution in restrictive practices, a revolution in relations between management and men would be brought about in a very short time. If we had that we would have a
  1700
  policy in which incomes as well as productivity could rise instead of having a policy of stop-go.
  Because of this repressive form of incomes policy, not only the seamen but the teachers are now asking for higher pay, and each section of the community feels that it is the victim of a policy which they do not believe is working or ever will work. This again increases militancy. For all these reasons, the Government bear very heavy responsibility for the starting of this strike and for its continuance.
  It would be wrong to suggest, as I think the Prime Minister was trying to suggest, that the main responsibility for the continuance of the strike lies with the Communist Party. On the other hand, I think he did a service in reminding the country again of the way in which the Communist Party seeks to exploit this and every other industrial dispute. He drew attention to the fact that the Communist Party has a very powerful industrial organisation. Many people are aware of this, but many are not.
  This first came to light and to the attention of the general public during the Electrical Trades Union case, but there have been many changes since then. It is still true that the industrial and political committee of the Communist Party, which, as the Prime Minister did not choose to mention, is closely in touch with the World Federation of Trade Unions and takes its policy from the Federation, controls to a large extent the policy in the Electrical Trades Union, but at the time of the case it exercised control through secret advisory committees. Members of the Communist Party used to attend and concentrate on particular unions. As all that was exposed it changed, and now the contracts are of a much less formal character, and within the exercise of these informal contacts that the men whom the Prime Minister named were functioning during the seamen's dispute.
  There has been a further development recently which was mentioned the other day in a report which is to be published by Sir William Carron. There is a new industrial organisation which the industrial committee of the Communist Party is able to use which is called the "Voice of the Unions". It was sponsored by some hon. Members of this House. I do not know if hon. Members have seen

  1701
  "Aviation Voice", "Dockers' Voice", "Engineering Voice" and so on. The meeting to which Sir William Carron referred was called on behalf of that "Engineering Voice" and took place at the beginning of this month and it illustrates the way in which the Communist Party now works. That meeting was attended by many members of the Amalgamated Engineering Union and others. Although they discussed the magazine, they also discussed in great detail how to take away the control of the Amalgamated Engineering Union from those who now hold it and get in their place Communists and those who sympathise with the Communist point of view. These reports will be published by Sir William Carron very soon.
  It is of use that the country should be aware of what happens at these meetings, and in that sense the Prime Minister by drawing attention to this matter has done a service. This is a real take-over bid. The Prime Minister was exaggerating when he referred to action in regard to the seamen as a take-over bid, but there are take-over bids being made in connection with the Amalgamated Engineering Union.
  When we discuss whether anything can be done to counter the influence of a perfectly legal organisation, obviously we are on much more difficult ground. That can be done fundamentally only by trade unionists themselves. There are hundreds of trade unionists fighting this battle every day of their lives. I do not believe that an inquiry would reveal very much that is not already known. I rather agree with the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale when he said that when people have done nothing illegal—and there is no question of any of the people the Prime Minister mentioned having done anything illegal—-it seems a little unfair to mention them by name. I do not believe that an inquiry would reveal that any of these people have done anything illegal. Nor is there anything illegal in the whole industrial pursuits of the Communist Party, however pernicious one may think they are within the law. Nothing that is likely to be exposed at this moment will show that the Communist Party contravenes the law in any way. The Electrical Trades Union affair taught the Communist Party a great deal.
  1702
  The main actions which can be taken are by trade unionists themselves. The Government can help. When the time comes, there are many suggestions that we on these benches can make for reorganising the trade unions and strengthening the discipline within them, which I believe would be welcomed by a large number of trade unionists, and which might enable them to exercise more control within their own unions.
  There is one very old idea which I believe the Government should take advantage of now. It is the idea of acting by injunction. Today no major strike can conceivably be considered as simply between the union and employers. This is true, no matter whether the unionists concerned are seamen, railwaymen, dockers or anybody else. Any major union which finds it necessary to strike inevitably involves the whole country and inevitably the Government is drawn in.
  I believe that in an advanced industrial society like ours there should be a system by which the Government of the day can, as in Sweden, the United States and other countries, proceed by injunction and gain a cooling off period of, say, 40 days or 60 days. Thus the Government could gain the time not only to put their own point of view across, but for both sides to be brought together to seek a solution and so avoid a strike which is damaging to the national interest.
  I believe that such a system has become necessary. I do not believe that the Government should wait for the recommendations of the Royal Commission before adopting this system. After this strike the Government would be well advised to legislate on such a system immediately. I cannot believe that many people would object to it. I do not believe that seamen or anybody else enjoy a strike. Throughout the strike everybody has felt that there was not all that between the two sides and that somehow the strike should have been avoided.
  The right to strike would not be abandoned or weakened by having a cooling off period. I believe that in the United States the procedure has been invoked 22 times and only once have the parties failed to find the basis for an agreement in the cooling off period. A procedure such as this would offer this country

  1703
  the hope of avoiding a repetition of recent events.
  The Prime Minister's remarks need to be put in their right perspective. A very large share of the responsibility for what has happened lies with the Government. I do not believe that this strike, either in its origin or in its continuance, has been mainly due to the activities of the Communist Party. I think that the Communists have done their utmost to exploit it, but that is normal. I am not sure that it is right to censure people for what is both normal and legal behaviour.
  8.38 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh D. Brown: The speech of the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Crawley) should be a warning to the seamen because, having expressed great sympathy for them and understanding of their case, he went on to exploit the situation in the same way as he has accused the Communist Party and the Communists of doing. Perhaps this is a lesson to all of us to try to apply ourselves to this problem objectively and make constructive suggestions, if that is possible in such a delicate situation, which may help to bring this dispute to a close.
  I have not the experience, and perhaps not even the eloquence, of my hon. Friends the Members for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) in criticising or attacking the Prime Minister. I sincerely hope that I have the opportunity in future to develop or acquire the experience. Before I make one or two points on what I think has been a mishandling of the situation, I should like to address myself to the Conservative Members. As usual, none of them is here.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Two. The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) is here.
  Mr. Brown: I am not sure whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman is with me or not at the moment.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg (St. Marylebone): I was. I was noting the hon. Member's phrase about the Government—" a mishandling of the situation ".
  Mr. Brown: I wanted to pay the right hon. and learned Member a compliment, because the new-found interest in the
  1704
  situation, as witness the contributions which we have had here today, is quite a change from the debate that took place on 26th May more than a month ago, when we were discussing the granting of emergency powers. From half past six onwards that night there was not one single Conservative Member in this House who wished to contribute anything to the debate. As far as I remember, there was not a Liberal present all day.
  Therefore, it seems to me that the new-found interest to jump on the anti-Communist bandwagon must be looked at in the light of somewhat advantage there is in it for the Conservative Party. What is it that the Conservatives are asking? The right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) seemed to suggest that we should have some inquiry. With what end in view—to make the Communist Party an illegal or proscribed organisation? Would that be helpful? It is almost an undercover organisation in many respects at the moment, especially in the industrial sense.
  What further guidance are hon. Members opposite seeking from the Government? I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has departed again, because I sincerely hope that when he replies tonight he will pay particular attention to the fact that not one Member on this side of the House has been with him on the statement which he made eight days ago.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: Had I been given the opportunity, I assure my hon. Friend that I, like many others, would have been with my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, in all his remarks about Communist activity in the trade union movement.
  Mr. Brown: Nobody is disputing the Communist influence in the trade union movement. What we are disputing, or at least what I am disputing, is the time and place to make it public. That is an entirely different point. One might take it from the interjection of my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) that I was suggesting that the Prime Minister had deliberately misled hon. Members. I never suggested anything of the kind.
  I should like to make three brief points from the Glasgow or Scottish angle. Reference has been made to the Islands,

  1705
  and I am prepared to include Ireland as one of the islands off the shores of Scotland. I am amazed by the plea of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) about sending the right kind of vessel. I quite agree in thinking that the Government's handling in this regard has been most unfortunate. My hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) made an excellent contribution in the debate on 26th May, and it is a pity that more attention was not paid to it by the Government before they took what I regard as precipitate action.
  If a contribution has to be made, it must be made in the sense of trying, if not to win the confidence of the seamen, at least to give the feeling that one is impartial. One cannot be neutral in this situation but one can be impartial in the sense of trying to project the idea that one has confidence in their sense of fairness in a difficult situation. I think that the Government's action was a bit precipitate in Scotland, in sending the Navy to the islands when we already had a good example, unlike what the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said, of co-operation in the interests of the Harris tweed industry. This was one mistake.
  Secondly, I should like to have seen some kind of comment on the disturbing affair of the circular letter that has been sent to all members of the seamen's union, so I understand, though I have had no official approaches by the seamen. I should like to know whether there has been any police activity or Government activity in going into this as there seems to have been in following the movements of people who go from one flat to another, and so on. This is the kind of line which must be taken if one wants to convince people.
  As regards gaining the confidence of the seamen, no action, according to what I could see, was taken by the Government on the illegal use of fishing boats to the islands, including Ireland. Here again, no one is likely to gain the confidence or the understanding of the seamen if all these things can be marked up against him.
  Now, let us look at the other side of the picture, so to speak. It is not my impression that the National Union of
  1706
  Seamen, the executive, the strike committees or anyone else in the membership has been manipulated in any underhand sense by the Communist Party. For some of the reasons which the Prime Minister gave—developments in the union and its organisation and so on— the people who are leading or who have been thrown up as leaders of the strike committees seem to be a lot of inexperienced trade unionists. When I say inexperienced, I am not belittling them. I am satisfied that they have courage, capacity and integrity, but they lack the experience which one can gain only through dealing with trade union affairs day in and day out. For obvious reasons this is something which they lack.
  Some of the decisions taken by some branches have seemed almost incredible to me. I say this not because I want to attack the seamen. I do not. I had occasion to call on the Glasgow members the day after the Report was issued. The opinion of the national executive was accepted. They gave an impression of unanimous support for the executive, though not one member in the audience had even read the Report. Neither had I at that time. This is an expression of loyalty which would be magnificent if it were not just a little misplaced. However, it must be understood—I emphasise this—that, to my knowledge, there was not a single Communist at that meeting. No one spoke, apart from the chairman. Yet that was the feeling of loyalty expressed by the seamen. It may have been misplaced, but it was there plain to see.
  With such tremendous loyalty felt towards them and with the sense of responsibility which they themselves feel towards their members, it is all the more difficult, in these unsophisticated circumstances, for members of a union executive to go back and advise their members to accept something less than that on which they had set their hearts. This is one of the fundamental reasons why I say there has been a mishandling of the situation in not getting the feel of the strike and in relying too much, perhaps, on such impressions and superficial pictures as are painted across the horizon now.
  The Government failed to secure the confidence of the seamen. Equally, it must be said that the shipowners gave

  1707
  no cause for confidence. Every time I saw a representative of the shipowners on television, my back was put up. If ever there was a stubborn intractable approach in a dispute, it was that displayed by the leader of the Shipping Federation. In spite of our being told three weeks ago that not another penny could be afforded, we learn in a couple of weeks that the extra penny can be afforded. The Government have failed to come forward and criticise the shipowners with the same impartiality with which they seem to criticise the seamen.
  Such a move could have made an enormous contribution in the circumstances. Hon. Members opposite tell us that this is a battle, that the union are taking on the Government and challenging the prices and incomes policy. If they say that, some of us are entitled to reply that the shipowners are hiding behind the Government's prices and incomes policy. I should like to see us being a little fairer in our approach to both sides in the dispute.
  We must recognise that there has been a singular lack of evidence to substantiate the Prime Minister's bringing in this Communist smear or technique. I am sorry to have to say this. I think that there is a natural disappointment among many of us. We are going through a period of frustration, because the Government and the policies we believe in are not showing the success in such a short space of time that many of us hoped for. It is a natural feeling.
  I believe that it is shared to some extent by the seamen. It is the feeling, "Surely we should be able to get something out of the Labour Government", but it comes at the very time when the country is in a more difficult financial situation than ever before. In these circumstances, it is not right for my right hon. Friend to have used the language he did. I cannot find any good reason why he should have chosen to use it in his statement eight days ago or in his speech today.
  I plead with my right hon. Friend to try to counteract the impression which may have been created outside. At the same time, I appeal to the seamen to be a bit more reasonable and to make some attempt to understand the difficulties of
  1708
  the Government and our loyalties to the Government, just as they have their loyalties to their Executive. If we have more understanding and talks with one another, perhaps we may be able to see an end to this unfortunate problem
  8.52 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Moonman: I am grateful to have been called, for I have sat here since my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made his speech. It has been a hard day's night. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister's speech has been misunderstood in certain quarters. Its greatest impact is that it was comprehensive. It was quite simply a statement dealing with the individuals who may have been engaged in subversive activities, but even the critics will admit that it was a detailed analysis of the background of the strike, and I am grateful for that.
  What depresses me is that it is only on an occasion like this that we are given an opportunity to debate industrial relations. That is a great shame. There are other occasions when we seem to spend our time perhaps less usefully. Last night was an example. We had a whole series of repetitive speeches without the urgency involved in this issue. I regret this, because one or two hon. Members have made the point that the centre of any economic policy is the health and quality of our industrial relations between management and the unions. My right hon. Friend has also invited us to give our experiences, and I propose to relate mine.
  I have had several informal meetings with seamen and found that in only two cases out of 20 was it their feeling that the basic problem was the reduction of hours and the jacking up of wages. Much more was it a problem of communication between owners and men, status in the job and satisfaction from it. That is also true of many other industries. We often find that the blatant points about wages and conditions of service are really camouflage.
  The fundamental issue of so many disputes in the last five years is the extent of Government action. That means we should be prepared to consider the rôle of Government, management and trade unions. It is quite clear that in the last four to five years there has

  1709
  been a gradual increase of interest by the Government, with Acts of Parliament relating to security of employment, industrial training and so on, which has meant that the Government have had a direct interest in what happens in industry.
  There is also the need for management itself to clarify its functions, and many employers in this industry do not have the efficiency which we expect. In place of efficiency, there is often cowardice and in place of organisation, we get inadequacy. We should be prepared to criticise management in the industry. We have heard some extraordinary speeches from hon. Members opposite from which one might believe that the only group to blame in the industry is the trade union and that it is they whom we should be prepared to condemn. That is only one part of the problem and the whole harmony of industrial relationships depends on an understanding of both sides.
  I hope that the Prime Minister will take some time to explain the rôle of the trade unions. Many trade unionists find the present change in the situation extremely difficult. What is the rôle of the trade union movement in the context of the economy which we are now creating? The First Secretary has said that the trade union movement should not be militant. This is something which he said outside the House a few weeks ago. But today the Prime Minister said that the trade unions need to continue to be militant. What is their expected rôle? If they are not to be militant and have to have a new rôle, how can they be protected? This is something which we have to be prepared to work out.
  A new situation has been developing in our industrial environment. The Pearson Court of Inquiry represented an imposed settlement which was a departure and a very serious matter. Contrary to the Industrial Courts Act, 1919, which does not demand prior acceptance of a court's report by both sides to a dispute, the Government insisted on a settlement.
  I want to give my own views as a Labour Member of Parliament. The right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) was way off beam when he said that in industrial relations we could not have political matters. I do not see how that is possible. Industrial
  1710
  relations surely suggest that there are political views, and on this side of the House we are concerned not only with the efficiency of management, but with deep and loyal interests to the trade union movement. The views of hon. Members opposite are clearly contrary.
  There will be great concern in the trade union and Labour movement about the way in which the debate has been shaped. The criticism about particular individuals who may have taken an active part in the strike should also be regarded as an admission that they are good organisers. If it is a criticism, we are going in the face of all we have encouraged the trade union movement to do over the last fifty years. That is something which comes out very clearly.
  We must be prepared to admit that industry does not exist in isolation. The personalities and patterns of behaviour of people are shaped considerably by their past and present experience in home, school and the community. If we want to minimise the effect of isolated subversive elements, if it is true that they exist, we must try constantly to improve the fabric and quality of the society in which we live.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher): Mr. Hogg.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. Am I right in assuming that this is exempted business and that, subject to catching your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, hon. Members will be able to speak after the right hon. and learned Gentleman has spoken?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: This Motion is not exempted business.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg (St. Marylebone): There can be relatively few occasions when the House is debating matters which are not generally expected to result in a contested Division when so many hon. Members have attempted to catch the eye of the Chair, or have made such useful contributions. Despite the slightly uncalled-for remarks which came about two speeches ago from below the Gangway opposite during the dinner hour, there are very few recent occasions which I can remember when the House has shown, by constant attendance in the Chamber, a greater interest in the subject under discussion.

  1711
  I must say that although this has been a melancholy occasion for debate, because of the seriousness of the situation which has given rise to it and the gravity of the issues involved, I can seldom remember a more interesting debate, nor one in which there have been stranger or more exciting divergences between hon. Members of the same party or coincidences between hon. Members of opposite parties. Several hon. Members have commented on this and I find it encouraging rather than otherwise where these concidences exist.
  Before I address my remarks to the topics under discussion, may I reiterate what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in opening, that we on this side are heartily sorry to hear of the sudden illness of the Minister of Labour. I have been a Member of Parliament for very nearly 30 years now, and I must say that in recent years bitterness between individuals and parties has increased rather than diminished. But I hope that there never will come a time when we find it impossible in this House to convey sympathy which is wholeheartedly sincere when one or other of us falls into sickness. Those of us, and there are quite a few on this side, who have known the loneliness and the strain of high office during moments of emergency and crisis will feel warmly towards the right hon. Gentleman, and I know that the whole House will wish him a very speedly recovery from his illness.
  This debate arises on the occasion of the renewed Proclamation of emergency and the Regulations made thereunder. It is worth saying that, whatever criticism may have been levelled against the Government from various quarters during this debate, some of them far more severe than I shall feel inclined to make, I do not recollect a single speech from all those that have been delivered that has doubted the duty of the Government to proclaim the emergency in the first place and to go on renewing the powers until the strike is at an end.
  What is involved in the use of the powers under the Emergency Powers Act is not intervention in the merits of an industrial dispute, but the safeguarding to the community of its means of livelihood; its food, fuel, light, water and
  1712
  means of communications. I am glad to think that no one during the course of the debate has doubted or disputed in any way the duty of the Government to take the steps which are, theoretically at any rate, the only steps under discussion and to renew the emergency in order to safeguard these things for the community.
  I could have wished that there had been a little more precise material in the debate on the subject of the emergency and the Regulations themselves. I have never been satisfied that this whole Draconian Code was a necessity. It seemed to me when we had them for the first time that what happened had been that the Government had tacked on the Regulation which they had used in 1949 to the Regulations which we used in 1956, or thereabouts, and then added a few from the General Strike and a few more which the various Departments thought that they might need in certain circumstances. I cannot agree that this is the ideal method of acquiring power to govern by decree. In the unfortunate event of further Regulations being necessary, I could wish that the Government would be a little more specific in their definition of the particular Regulations which they have asked us to pass. The Government have told us absolutely nothing at all, as far as I can measure to date, about what plans they have to put into effect Measures to ensure that the community has those things which the Emergency Powers Act is there to safeguard.
  As I said last time, perhaps there are very good reasons for the Government holding their cards fairly close to their chest. It may be that they are afraid of the strike spreading. It may be that they are afraid of ill-intentioned people interfering with their plans. If either were the case, it would be a most melancholy circumstance. The community is entitled, when faced with a challenge to its supplies of fuel, light and food and communications, to have at least some indication from the Government of the plans which they have ready in case the use of powers should prove necessary. I regret that this has not been done.
  A great deal of the discussion has related to the strike itself. I do not want to go into the many criticisms levelled at the Government from their own benches. I do not think that it is helpful

  1713
  in an industrial dispute which we all hope will be settled in the course of negotiations for the Official Opposition, and it may be even supporters of the Government, to present the Government with a series of carping criticisms relating solely to the handling of the past.
  I listened to the Prime Minister's account of the matter. We all recognise that he was right that many of these grievances are of long standing and relate to inadequacies of the legislation which he says will be repealed. I thought, however, that he stressed too much what he described as the uniqueness of this strike and ignored too much the similar events which have taken place elsewhere. There is no ignoring the fact that over a number of years parties, unions and others have been playing the game of "last across" against the incomes and prices policies of successive Administrations. Some of them have won and some of them have lost.
  If the National Union of Seamen, perhaps more naive than some, perhaps, as the Prime Minister gave us to understand, less intelligently led in some respects, has got in the way of oncoming traffic, I feel that it is not its fault alone. What we have to ask ourselves is the question which was asked from below the Gangway by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell): can this country afford to go on like this? How many more times must we lurch from one emergency to another, faced always with demands in which Governments have to choose between the validity of their incomes policies and a damaging industrial dispute which must cause danger to the economy of the country?
  The Prime Minister indicated the course which the negotiations have taken and are taking. It looks as if at some time an agreement will be made on the exact number of leave days to be conceded in return for the exact proportion of productivity. One hopes that that will be to mutual satisfaction. But is there no better way that a highly civilised and politically conscious industrial country can conduct its business than to arrive at a decision of that kind in which minutiae are haggled over for weeks at the cost of an almost infinite amount to the prestige of the country and to its economic life in terms of exports and imports?
  1714
  I should like to advert to the second of the two main topics of the debate. This was the account given by the Prime Minister of the facts which justified, as he claimed, his observations eight days ago on 20th June. These have come in for a good deal of discussion from more quarters than one. One recognises at once—at least, I recognise—that if the right hon. Gentleman believed, and I have no doubt that he believed, on 20th June that a tightly-knit body of persons were deliberately manipulating the executive of a great industrial union so that they became—I am quoting, I think, almost verbatim—more eager to inflict damage on the community than to acquire justice for their members, he must have been entitled to say that to the House. There can be no doubt that the head of the Government of a democratic country is under an obligation to inform Parliament if he believes that to be the case.
  I cannot doubt that in saying that to the House on 20th June, the right hon. Gentleman was fully justified if he believed it to be true, as I accept that he did. We are, however, entitled, since the Prime Minister accepted the obligation upon himself of establishing the grounds of his belief, to ask how far the facts which he has produced today match up to his allegations. It is no charge of insincerity against the right hon. Gentleman if one subjects that to a certain amount of scrutiny.
  As has been said repeatedly, one always recognises that, in every muddy pool of industrial disputes, both Communists and Trotskyists will be sitting on the bank with their rod and line fishing the dirty water. That does not mean that they created the pool or put the fish into it, or that there are no other fishermen. Whilst I fully accept that the Prime Minister has today correctly described the events connected with the dispute and has correctly described in general the efficiency of the Communist industrial organisation or the danger that they can present to unions which they are constantly trying to infiltrate with better or less success, I cannot see that what the right hon. Gentleman has said today amounts to proof of the specific allegations he made on 20th June. What he said on that occasion was that a certain number of individuals had so succeeded in infiltrating in a minority of the executive

  1715
  that they were able to dominate it, that a number of the executive were seeking to damage the country more than to obtain justice for their members and that the executive was not master in its own house. I cannot see anything in the elaborate account which we were given today which justifies those allegations.
  It is, of course, true that in any hotly disputed matter members of executives with power, as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) reminded us, will be subjected to pressures of one kind or another. I have no doubt that it will be said that if they do not vote in this or that way, they will find it the worse for them when it comes to an election. Which of us has not been subjected to similar pressure at one time or another with more or less result?
  I cannot, however, accept such pressures as being either terrifying or amounting to terrorisation. Nor can I say with the right hon. Gentleman that this sort of thing is such as to daunt the stoutest hearts. If they were subjected to anything which would daunt the stoutest heart or terrorise or terrify in the ordinary sense of those words, that would be an illegal act. That would be a crime under Section 7 of the Protection of Property Act, 1875. If the right hon. Gentleman has evidence of that, he should have given it to the House. But I did not understand from what he said that he had any evidence of it.
  The next thing that I want to do is to comment on the remarkable story about the Observer article which was produced by the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch). The hon. Member for Poplar said that the very striking article in the Observer last Sunday, which I certainly read, was fed to the Observer in its essentials by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister himself or by the Government. When the right hon. Gentleman replies, I invite him to answer that charge, aye or no.
  I must say that when I read the article, without the information which the hon. Member for Poplar commands, I thought myself that it could only have come from the Government. I did not believe
  1716
  that responsible journalists could have used language of that kind without having precise sources from the Government and, in fact, from the Prime Minister's office. If I had the time, I could justify that from the language of the article itself. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether that is the case.
  The remarkable thing about the Observer article is that it made another and much more sinister case than that which the right hon. Gentleman was able to produce to the House in his speech today. The precise case made by the Observer article was to the effect that what was described as "a package deal" had been made to the executive and accepted by it. It said:
  "In return for allowing outside direction"—
  of the strike—
  "members of the executive were offered a guarantee of phased and unofficial strike support from other unions building up if necessary to a general strike."
  It added:
  "It now appears that the tightly knit group put their proposals to individual members of the National Union of Seamen executive whilst the Pearson Inquiry was sitting. Just as privately and informally this proposal had been accepted."
  I am bound to say that if that is the case something far more sinister would have been established than anything that the right hon. Gentleman alleged today. I would ask him specifically if that information came from the Government. If it did not, I am not accepting for a moment that what was described in the article as a conspiracy, I think correctly, would have been such that he would have been able to say that nothing illegal was done.
  I must remind the right hon. Gentleman, who was rightly concerned from the point of view of the country with the threat to spread the strike throughout the country—which did appear from his speech—that but for the repeal of the Act of 1927 the right hon. Gentleman would have been armed with an Act of Parliament saying that a strike was illegal as a lock-out was illegal if it had any object other than or in addition to the furtherance of a trade dispute within the trade or industry in which the strikers were engaged and was a strike designed

  1717
  or calculated to coerce the Government either directly or by inflicting hardship on the community.
  That Act of Parliament was repealed in 1945, without a reason for it being given. I ought perhaps to say that only one reason was given for it, in the now famous words, "We are the masters now". I wonder whether the Government are the masters in their own house now that they have deprived themselves of that piece of legislation and whether they do not regret the foolish action of their predecessors in interfering with a piece of legislation which had worked successfully for nearly 20 years without any complaint from either side.
  However, that is all past history now. The Government have to face the legal situation as it is. Here I agree with the right hon. Member for Easington when he says that the question is not what we should have done in the past but what the country can do now, and what it can do to prevent the recurrence of one emergency after another, such as we have been suffering from year after year under Governments of both political complexions threatening the life of the community and interfering with its ability to survive.
  Several hon. Members have put forward different views. I admit that mine came nearest to that of the right hon. Gentleman. But I would put to him the consideration that we cannot alter the organisation of unions, any more than we can alter the organisation of limited liability companies unless we pass legislation altering the law. A new Trade Union Act is as much a condition of the development of trade union law as a new Companies Act is a condition of the development of company law. It is utterly wrong for one hon. Gentleman opposite to suggest that we think that because we dislike unions. I hope the House will forgive me if I say perfectly candidly that I have no desire whatever to involve the Government in party politics in this issue. We have all tried to make our constructive contributions here.
  I should like to tell the House what I think has gone wrong in industrial relations for a long time in this country. At the beginning of the nineteenth century there were two great new forms of economic activity. There was the one which
  1718
  one could call the great partnership, which developed into the limited liability company, and there was the trade union. Different in all other respects, they had this factor in common, that each was outside the ambit of the law as it was then understood, the limited liability company because the law allowed no limitation of liability of partners, the union because it was held to be a conspiracy in the restraint of trade.
  In the then Benthamite philosophy of the time, the Parliament of that day smiled on the company, and frowned on the union. The result has been that from 1862 onwards the limited liability company has thriven and proved the basis of industrial activity in this land, to the infinite advantage of the nation as a whole, and all those who have taken part in it. Parliament gave it a code. It gave it a court. It gave it specified rights. It gave it model rules. It kept them up to date. It revised them from time to time, and nobody dreamt of saying to the limited company, or on its behalf, "You must not legislate for limited liability companies, because if you do you will be upsetting the whole basis of industrial civilisation ".
  The history of the unions has been utterly different. They have staggered for more than 100 years in a sort of twilight world. There is no piece of trade union legislation comparable to the Companies Act. The so-called Trade Union Acts have, in almost every case, been ad hoc reversals of specific decisions of the court.
  If we tried to run limited liability companies on the same absence of law, the same jungle justice, the same twilight absence of precision, that we run the trade unions, companies would fall into the same of difficulties into which unions are falling.
  Mr. Shinwell: This is a most interesting (thesis, but who is to blame for the staggering attitude of the trade unions? What about the Osborne judgment, and the resentment which that created?
  Mr. Hogg: We are all to blame, more or less, those who are older probably more than those who are younger, but I am not here to try to adjudicate blame, because I come midway between the two extremes. All that I say to the right hon. Gentleman is that surely the time has come, in a new age, and a new

  1719
  Parliament, to give to the trade union movement the kind of charter which the Parliament of our fathers gave to the great partnership, the limited liability company? Let us not go on recriminating with one another about whether we like the unions or not. In a modern society, activities as important as those of the unions must come into the full beneficent sunlight of law if we are to avoid injustice and chaos, which is what we have been going through lately.
  We are told that we must wait for the Royal Commission. I dare say that we shall have to wait for the Royal Commission. After all, my party was not elected at the General Election. But I with the Royal Commission would break into a gentle trot. I wish that Mr. Woodcock would get the trade union carthorse of Mr. David Low to move at an amble or walk. I understand that it has not given its evidence to the Royal Commission. If this opportunity is not taken soon it may prove too late for our industrial survival.
  What we have been talking about this evening is nothing less than the sovereignty of Parliament. I am not here to attack executives or politically motivated individuals, but can it really be the best way of conducting the affairs of democracy for a group of 50 people, however well-intentioned, however sincere, and however middle-of-the-road or responsible, to have it in their power to say that this country should live or die in an important part of its industrial activity? Can that be the best thing or the last thing that we can say? Is it not Parliament which must decide these matters?
  If we are not masters in our own house—in this House of Parliament, supporting democratic Government—can we hope to survive in a world in which individual interests and special pressures can be built up from either side? If we do not take it into our hands to legislate for trade unions I believe that democracy will go the way of other forms of society which have failed to face the challenge of the rule of law.
  9.26 p.m.
  The Prime Minister: I can reply only by leave of the House. If I have that I
  1720
  shall be very grateful. I thank the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) for his opening remarks, and especially for what he said about his hopes—and the hopes of all of us—for a speedy and fruitful settlement of this dispute. He will forgive me if I do not follow all the points that he has made, especially going so far back into the nineteenth century as he went. I feel that the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, is about as far back as any of us should go in relation to this dispute.
  In a few minutes I want to deal with some of the concrete points that he made, but on his last point it is important to tell him that no one—not myself nor any of my hon. Friends—would yield in the enthusiasm that he shows, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman showed, for the authority of the House and Government. But there are limits to what we can do by law. We cannot get ships to sea by passing a law or a Resolution of this House—or perhaps this strike would never have occurred. One lesson of this strike—not that we needed it to learn the lesson—is that democracy, or government by consent, involves not merely passing laws, be they restrictive or constructive; it means satisfying those who are concerned in an industry that they are being fairly treated.
  The big problem in the shipping industry, as I have argued many times in the House, arises from the accumulated catalogue of grievances and frustrations which were never put right and which have all boiled over into the serious situation that we face today.
  Before I come to the other points made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I want to deal with some points made by the Leader of the Opposition. He rightly addressed himself to something which has not been very much discussed today, namely, the problem of the emergency powers and the fact that we are seeking their renewal and extension. He said that his party would support us in this, although he commented on the fact that these powers have not been used. He expressed the view that we have failed to use them because of the far of exacerbating the strike situation. Under that phrase he probably meant spreading the strike to other industries.

  1721
  The reason why we have not used these powers is that they were not needed, certainly to the extent of the national position. I shall refer to certain peculiarly Scottish problems later. As I have said before, it is surprising that after six and a half weeks of this almost total strike, so far as it affected each ship coming into harbour, we are not suffering from acute port congestion, that berths have been kept open by a lot of imagination and ingenuity and—what has not been said so much today—by the fact that some of the trade unions not directly concerned in the dispute have shown very great courage and imagination in what they have done to keep the ports open. I hope that this will be recognised. It was not until last week—
  Mr. Heller: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that this very point was made in the first discussion of these powers? It was pointed out that as the Transport and General Workers' Union had now made an agreement with the N.U.S. the powers were unnecessary.
  The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend made the point earlier than that debate, at Question Time once as well, that this agreement had been made. I wish I could say that it had made the powers unnecessary. There are many powers, any one of which might be needed. We have been told that it was not, but I agree that the agreement made very early in the dispute between the Transport and General Workers' Union and the National Union of Seamen meant that many of our anxieties about early congestion of the ports did not materialise. I agree about that.
  Even last week, it looked as though there would be a serious problem and that it would be necessary to have a selective acceptance of ships and in other ways to control shipping movements. That is why the port emergency committees were set up, though because the situation has not yet deteriorated further it has not been necessary to invoke the Minister of Transport's powers through the port emergency committees. However, a great deal has been done by informal persuasion by the leaders of the port community, which is perhaps another reason why we have not needed to use these powers.
  1722
  The second power which we thought might have to be used—there were many signs that it might have to be—was our power of price control. In the early days, even before the strike began, there were signs of some speculative interests pushing up food prices and blaming it on the strike, before even a single ship had come to port and rested there. However, largely because of the voluntary action of some of the trades, because of the strong pressure by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and also because we had been helped by the time of the year—fresh vegetables, fruit and home-killed meat have been coming on the market in increasing quantities—we have been somewhat fortunate in regard to food supples and prices.
  I think it is right to warn the House that we shall have problems perhaps some months ahead with certain foodstuffs because ships which have not gone to far distant supplying areas in the last month will obviously not be returning in July or August as they normally would. Some, perhaps, will not be back until September even if the strike ends immediately, and we may be short for some time of those foodstuffs and materials which come long distances.
  The question of the Scottish Islands was raised by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and by the Leader of the Opposition. I think that the Leader of the Opposition went a little far when he said that we have failed to meet the needs of the Islands. When it became clear, within four days of the beginning of the strike, that there would be a shortage of essential foods in some of these Islands, the Government instructed defence vessels to take supplies to them—there was some criticism of the Government in the House at that time for being too hasty in using the vessels for this purpose—and these ships have given a more or less regular service ever since. Particularly, they have had some success in improving the service to the Western Isles.
  The right hon. Gentleman knows well —he has kept in close touch with the Government on all these questions—that Orkney and Shetland were served in the first few weeks by the "Rognvald", a civilian cargo boat, and later when the union withdrew its agreement to man ships the Government moved up the

  1723
  Army landing craft, now joined by a second and larger vessel, the "Lofoten". These two vessels, which are, of course, designed for defence purposes and not for the peculiar requirements of maintaining trade to and within the right hon. Gentleman's constituency, are not entirely suitable for carrying civilian supplies.
  We still have the problem of getting supplies away from the right hon. Gentleman's constituency, particularly perishable foodstuffs. However, the combined capacity of these two vessels should be adequate to meet essential needs and to carry eggs, fish and other local produce on the return journey. One form of transport for which they are unsuitable is the carriage of livestock, which should be one of the major exports from the area at this time.
  The Leader of the Opposition was, I believe, mistaken when he said that there was no emergency headquarters for the Scottish operations. Shortly after the beginning of the strike an operations room was set up by the Royal Navy and the Scottish Office in Edinburgh to coordinate emergency arrangements, and I understand that this is working smoothly. Information about the needs of the islands is being collected by local authorities, departmental officials and the shipping companies. Regular meetings are held in London and Edinburgh between Ministers and officers of all the Departments concerned.
  The right hon. Gentleman also said that there was a fuel shortage in the Western Isles and that this was, he understood, affecting employment in the Harris tweed mills as well as in the whisky distilleries. As a result of inquiries I have made of my right hon. Friend, I find that the strike has not had that effect. The Harris tweed industry has, I understand, been able to meet its needs and has arranged sea transport to and from the island privately, with the knowledge of the N.U.S. The question of distilleries is one on which the whole House will wish to be fully informed Both distilleries were closed for seven days during the time the "Rognvald" was running irregularly and the cause was lack of malt and yeast supplies. However, these supplies have now been arranged privately and both distilleries are open. One distillery, at Islay, is
  1724
  closed, but that is because of routine annual maintenance.
  The question of the carriage of mails to the islands was raised by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. I understand that these have been picked up and that they left Aberdeen at 5 o'clock this evening. The G.P.O. has already used the services of the R.A.F. for picking up the accumulated backlog and a delivery to Shetland in this way was made a few days ago. The G.P.O. is keeping a close watch on the postal mail deliveries to Orkney and Shetland and we have been assured that a reasonable service will be maintained, with the use of defence vessels and R.A.F. services where necessary.
  I know that there is concern in Scotland because in a few days' time nearly 200 schoolchildren are due to return from the mainland to the islands for their summer holidays. Discussions are going on about this, and I assure hon. Members that transport will be provided for these children.
  I turn from the question of the Regulations and their use to incomes policy. The Leader of the Opposition referred to our record in opposition. He seemed to think that the seamen's strike was largely due to the fact that when we came to power everyone thought that the lid would be taken off all forms of income. I hoped that the right hon. Gentleman was going to develop his argument and justify the statement which he made in the United States: that if he had been elected to office this strike would not have occurred. However, I think that the right hon. Gentleman was indulging in a bit of transatlantic exuberance at that time, and perhaps that is why he did not develop his argument.
  Since the right hon. Gentleman tried to substantiate what he was saying by relating his argument to the incomes policy, I will dwell on that matter for a short while. The right hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that we did not preach in opposition as we have in Government the need for an incomes policy. I could refer the right hon. Gentleman to articles of my own in The Guardian as long ago as 1957. There were three articles on this very issue. There was also the policy statement issued by the Labour Party when we were in opposition before the 1959 election, called "Industry and

  1725
  Society", which contained a powerful piece on this matter. I could also draw his attention to the arguments which were repeatedly stated by Hugh Gaitskell when we attacked hon. Gentlemen opposite for what we considered to be a biased and narrow type of incomes policy, acting selectively on certain people, as introduced by the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd). We stated that a real incomes policy was needed. As for lacking courage to say this before the election, one of my biggest speeches was made at the Transport and General Workers' Union Conference in Scarborough on 8th July, 1963, and I could have thought of no better audience to hear that speech. Indeed, I was given an ovation at the end of it.
  The suggestion that we were preaching in opposition that there would be no incomes policy when we came into Government and that this led to the situation which the right hon. Gentleman described is, of course, absolute nonsense. I made the same sort of speech to the T.U.C. on 7th September, 1963. What we said was that an incomes policy must be fair and must cover all incomes, not just wages, and there must be suitable budgetary policies to provide the right background. I thought it right to mention this because the right hon. Gentleman made so much of it.
  On the right handling of the dispute, the right hon. Gentleman went through the various phases. Although I think he was wrong on the point on which I interrupted him about our statement about the Pearson Committee—it was made the same evening and next day there was a Government statement—I concede that there could be two views on whether we handled it the right way or the wrong way. Even without being wise after the event, obviously there could be two views about it. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the inquiry and asked why we did not have it in April or early May so that it could have reported before the strike began.
  At no point when my right hon. Friend was in discussion with the union—I did not meet them until the Friday before the strike began—would the executive agree to anything at all except the 40-hour week. If they were not going to get the 40-hour week, and get it then, there would be a strike. That did not create a situa-
  1726
  tion where one could at that time have proposed the court of inquiry as a means of averting the strike. When my right hon. Friend and I met the executive in May, it was quite clear that nothing would avert this strike, literally nothing. That was the view I formed. More to the point, it was the view of my right hon. Friend with all his vast experience of industrial negotiations and knowledge of the personalities involved.
  As one of my hon. Friends said, they did not want to make life more difficult for the Labour Government. They wanted to see the Government succeed and they did not want to do harm to the nation. They said this, and it was right, but they said that in the present mood of the seamen if they did not have a strike unofficial elements would take over. They said that they had to have this strike to assert their leadership over the seamen because the seamen were so incensed about the whole situation. At one stage, I understand, they told the T.U.C. that if the employers were to concede the whole 40-hours a week case there would still be a strike if only to celebrate because they had it so much in their blood. If there were any attempts on the part of the executive to stop the strike the executive would lose the leadership for all time to other elements.
  Because it was clear that this could not be avoided, this, I think, was the main reason why we did not invite the employers to 10 Downing Street that day. There was such a great gap between them and there was no willingness on the part of the executive to meet the employers unless the employers were prepared to concede the whole, or practically the whole, of that case. On the other question, whether we were wrong to hold the inquiry when the strike had already begun instead of insisting on a return to work, this can be and probably will be argued. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would say that we were wrong to agree to hold it when the strike was on.
  The right hon. Gentleman then criticised my own broadcast the Monday after the strike began. He said that I had said that this was a dispute against the Government. I think that the right hon. Gentleman got me wrong there. I did not say that it was a dispute against the Government. It is true that I referred

  1727
  to the prices and incomes policy, and I will come to that point a little later. What I said in the broadcast, as I have said to the members of the executive council of the union, was that once they had resorted to a strike whose only result, as they knew, must be great economic damage to the community, from that moment their strike action—not the wages dispute—was a strike against the community and the Government. That is a very different thing from saying that the dispute over wages was a dispute between the union on the one hand and the Government on the other. I think that it was a different thing and, if the right hon. Gentleman will turn up again the text of what I said, I think he will see that what I have said is right.
  When the right hon. Gentleman talks about the wages dispute being a dispute against the Government, if by that he is criticising me for invoking in that broadcast the prices and incomes policy —I am not sure if this is his argument —I must ask him to think again whether I was wrong to do that. He himself has said repeatedly since that time that we should not go beyond the Pearson Report. I think the right hon. Gentleman felt that the Pearson Report was fair or was the upper limit of what was fair, certainly that we should not go above it. The right hon. Gentleman's argument this afternoon was that, because higher increases were awarded, taken or agreed in other industries last year—in fact, there was a 14½ per cent, increase for the seamen themselves last year—the seamen were so exasperated that they took the measure that they have taken. As I have said, the seamen had one of the highest increases awarded last year, anyway.
  However, quite apart from the fact, I should have thought that this argument gets into some difficulties, because if the the right hon. Gentleman is saying that we ought to have been tougher in resisting the wage increases of last year, it is very difficult for him, if this is what he is doing, to criticise me for invoking the prices and incomes policy in that broadcast; because if I have not invoked it then and if there had been a big inflationary settlement, as the right hon. Gentleman would put it, he might be standing at the Dispatch Box in another
  1728
  two or three months' time when there was another strike saying that that other strike would not have happened if we had stood up to the seamen by invoking the prices and incomes policy. It is not appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition to say that we should have been tougher last year and then complain, if he is complaining, that I used the prices and incomes policy as one of the arguments in my broadcast at the beginning of the strike.
  I will come later to the right hon. Gentleman's proposal for an inquiry, because it follows on certain of the things raised by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone.
  I am sorry that I did not hear all the speeches which have been made in the debate. The hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) said, if it has been reported to me correctly, that he thought that there was a case now for separate unions for coastal shipping and for deep sea shipping. As one who wants to see a strong, active, virile and democratic union, I fear that this strike may well involve a split in the union on those very lines. Whereas I think that the hon. Gentleman would like to see it split in this way, I would not. I would like to see the union retain its unity, but I think that one of the results of the situation I described this afternoon, where the seamen employed in the short sea trade and coastal shipping and the cross-Channel trades are bearing practically the whole of the burden and brunt, while their more fortunate deep sea comrades are still on the high seas and will soon be returning with their accumulated voyage earnings, will be that very serious strains will be caused between man and man within the union.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo), Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) all spoke, in varying degrees critically, of what I said last Monday and of what I said again today. I think that all of them felt that what I said was a diversion. They did not all go as far as to say that I was looking for Communists under the bed. They know me well enough to know that I do not go looking for Communists under the bed. The suggestion that this was a diversion from

  1729
  the real issues of the dispute I do not think will bear examination. I have emphasised time and time again the deep and underlying causes behind this strike. But I believe that I was right last Monday and again today to express my concern about the pressures that have been put on the executive council. I said that the Communist Party, on all the evidence known to me, has acted legally, that there have been no illegal individual actions, and that they have been acting within their rights. Certainly that is so.
  Some hon. Members tend to underrate the situation. They accuse me of oversimplifying. I do not. I recognise its great complexity. But they simplify the situation into a straight struggle of right and wrong, of good and evil, of "goodies" and "baddies", on the question of the wage increase, the 40-hour week, and the leave arrangements.
  What they neglect is that a power struggle is going on in the National Union of Seamen, a highly-organised take-over bid for this union, and the strike is being artificially lengthened. Efforts are being made to extend it in time and coverage, in scope as between unions, for reasons which have nothing to do with the main issues that the strike is supposed to be about.
  I ask why the executive council was unanimous in rejecting every peace move, in standing firm on a 40-hour week, without any concession or offer to consider any concessions, until last week, when for the first time there was a vote on the executive council. Why did it reject the proposal which my right hon. Friend and I made at Downing Street a week last Friday, involving Lord Pearson's Court of Inquiry, to set productivity gains against the cost of the leave arrangements, and then, on Saturday, only eight days later, accept negotiations on the basis of what Lord Pearson proposed— the fulfilment of what we ourselves had proposed only eight days before?
  In the course of the debate my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale went deep into the democratic history of the House, as I did this afternoon. All of us want to see democracy function and flourish. But one of the conditions of this is that when pressures are being exercised, and exercised, as it were, under cover of darkness, as some of these are, the duty of anyone
  1730
  who knows these facts, or believes them to be the case, is to bring them into the light, because that is the one thing that can make democracy function.
  One thing that can make democracy break down—and the right hon. Gentleman was very gloomy in his concluding words about the dangers of ultimate; breakdown of democracy—is if there are pressures which no one really knows about, if one is being pushed about without knowing it.
  Reference was made to my phrase about being masters in their own house, I was reminded that perhaps we are not fully masters in this House, that there are lobbies and pressures. We have always taken good care, as far as possible, to see that pressures on Members should be brought into the open. This is why we have rules about disclosure of interest. This is why two or three years ago the rules about certain dinners., luncheons and other activities in the House had to be tightened up a little.
  This is why if any lobbies were to start putting pressures through public relations or other means on Members improperly the whole House would insist on something like the American system of registration of lobbies and much fuller declaration of interest on the part of those concerned. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone was right in saying that every one of us may be in doubt as to whether we shall be reelected if we take certain action. There are very strong laws of privilege in the House for those who try to put improper pressures on how any hon. Member shall vote, or even speak. This is essential to the democracy that we know in the House. I believe that at any rate a small part of this is essential in protecting members of other areas in our democracy from what may be improper pressures.
  The real point is not so much that they are improper as that they may not be fully realised, and I believed that it was my duty last week to bring them out. It was my job to decide whether it was my duty or not. My hon. Friends can criticise, but it was my job at the end of the day to take the decision. As I say, I felt that it was my duty to make clear to those who, with such surprising unanimity, were taking decisions the nature of

  1731
  the pressures being brought to bear upon them.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Will my right hon. Friend define what he means by an improper pressure, and will he say who among the people he named in the House today was guilty of applying improper pressure?
  The Prime Minister: The answer is that I believe that the organised groups of Communists operating on and through members of the executive, directly and indirectly, were exercising improper pressure and were not doing it directly, stating what their motives were.
  I have just realised that I have about four minutes left. I thought that this was exempted business. I suppose that we all have to be here about 20 years before we get the answers right. I think that this Motion is not exempted business but the second is. I shall try to hurry along.
  The right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone quoted certain precedents. First, on the Royal Commission, he said that we would have to wait for the outcome of that, because his party was not elected at the General Election. I can only say that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends had 13 years. They could have set the Royal Commission up to six years ago and we could have had the Report by now. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition refused to set one up when it was proposed in 1960.
  As regards the stories in the Observer, they did not come from my office. My hair stood on end as I read some of them. I can only say that I take no responsibility for them. Some of the facts in those stories were to my knowledge wrong, and there were one or two sensational allegations which may or may not be true. I have no means of checking them.
  The proposal for an inquiry made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition raises some difficult questions. I explained this afternoon why I acted as I did. Sometimes all of us have to take unusual action of this kind. I take responsibility for what I said in the House. I should not have said it if I had not good reason for knowing that what I was saying was true and that it was necessary and relevant to the dispute
  1732
  despite the disadvantages of saying it. I knew that some of my hon. Friends would be critical. I think that their criticisms are limited. They do not think that this is part of a McCarthyite witch-hunt, or anything like that. But, at the end of the day, they have the happy luxury of being able to make negative statements, of being able to say that this is where we get with our prices and incomes policy.
  Some of us, on the other hand, have the job of governing. We must have a prices and incomes policy, or we know this nation will be plunged again into unemployment. Therefore, we have to take the decisions. [An HON. MEMBER: "We want a real prices and incomes policy."] Yes, a real one, and I hope that a lot of my hon. Friends will support it when we have achieved it. [An HON. MEMBER: "We will indeed."] That has not always been so clear. As I say, we have to take these decisions, and we have to stand by them.
  As regards an inquiry, the right hon. Gentleman said that only if we got fuller facts from an inquiry could one check whether I was right about their not being their own masters. My purpose was to do something more than a long-term investigation. I wanted to bring into the light of day and to warn the moderate members of the executive committee now of the insidious pressures which were being put on them.
  Again as regards an inquiry, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party, my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale, and the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Crawley) expressed doubts, grave doubts at times. I can only say that the right hon. Gentleman knows some of the difficulties involved in an inquiry of the kind he proposes. When the strike is over, I for my part would be prepared to consider some form of inquiry and, if there is to be an inquiry, what form it should take and what terms of reference might be appropriate and most likely to conform to the national interest. When the strike is over, not now.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty thanking Her Majesty for Her Gracious Message communicating to this

  1733
  House that Her Majesty deems it proper by Proclamation, made in pursuance of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, as amended by the Emergency Powers Act, 1964, and dated 22nd June, 1966, to declare that a state of emergency exists.
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill and
  1734
  on the Motion relating to the Welsh Grand Committee may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed —[The Prime Minister.]

  EMERGENCY POWERS
  Resolved,
  That the Regulations made by Her Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act 1920 by Order dated 22nd June 1966, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22nd June, shall continue in force, subject however to the provisions of section 2(4) of this said Act.—[Mr. Roy Jenkins.]

LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL

  New Clause 1. —(ILLEGITIMATE CHILD TO SUCCEED TO PARENTS' ESTATE IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.)
  (1) An illegitimate child shall have the same rights as a legitimate child to share in the bairns' part of the estate of his or her mother.
  (2) An illegitimate child shall have the same rights of succession in its father's estate as in its mother's estate.—[Mr. David Steel.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
  A few moments ago I was delighted to hear the Prime Minister express the view that one had to be here 20 years to know the rules. I have been here only one year. I had no sleep last night and then I found, Mr. Speaker, that you had not selected my new Clause No. 2—Amendment of Sections 2 and 6 of the Agriculture Act, 1958—on which I had prepared a speech. However, I move new Clause No. 1 in order to probe the Government's views.
  During proceedings on the Law (Succession) (Scotland) Act, 1964, concern was expressed by a number of hon. Members about the inadequacy of provision for illegitimate children. On 26th November, 1963, the then Secretary of State for Scotland announced the setting up of a Committee to inquire into the matter, concerning itself with the law not only of Scotland but of England and Wales as well. The Committee was set up on 17th February, 1964, under the Chairmanship of Lord Russell, and it included two Members of this House. I now ask the Minister of State whether the Committee has reported and what the Government's intentions are.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. George Willis): As the hon. Gentleman has reminded the House, a committee dealing with the succession rights of illegitimate children was set up in February 1964 by the then Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for
  1736
  Scotland to consider whether any alterations are desirable in the law of succession in England, Wales and Scotland in relation to illegitimate persons. There were four Scottish members of the Committee. The Committee's report has now been received and is expected to be published in the very near future. I hope that in view of this the hon. Gentleman will be prepared to withdraw his Motion and Clause.
  Mr. N. R. Wylie: Before the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) withdraws the Motion and Clause, I wish to say that I would support a provision along these lines. The common law has always been harsh on illegitimate children, although the position has been alleviated by the Legitimacy Act, 1926, and the Law Reform (Succession) (Scotland) Act, 1964. However, it still leaves a great deal to be desired. I hope that the recommendations of the Committee will be such as to recommend very substantial changes in the law of succession of illegitimate children. I am sure that recommendations along these lines would receive wide support.
  Mr. David Steel: This is a continuing problem, as I have learnt as a result of cases in my constituency. On the assurance of the Minister of State, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion in the expectation of legislation in due course.
  Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

  Clause 3. —(POWER TO VARY AMOUNT OF WAGES EXCEPTED FROM ARRESTMENT.)
  Mr. Willis: I beg to move, in page 3, line 29, after second "of", to insert "not less than".
  This Amendment would substitute "not less than one month" for "one month" in Clause 3(4). As the Clause stands, an Order in Council varying the basic figure in the amount of wages excepted from arrestment must come into operation exactly one month after it is made. This follows from the Wages Arrestment Limitation (Amendment) (Scotland) Act, 1960, which introduced the present formula.
  The Editor of Statutory Instruments has pointed out that this rigid provision

  1737
  would perhaps give rise to a difficulty in the case, for example, where the month elapsed on a public holiday, or where, for some unforeseeable reason, there was delay in the publication of the Order. It is not usual for the precise period bettween the making of a Statutory Instrument and its coming into effect to be fixed by the enabling Statute. Accordingly, the Amendment provides for the Order to come into operation not earlier than a month after, instead of, as at present, precisely a month after, the date of the making of the Order. The period would, in accordance with normal practice, be stipulated in the Order in Council.
  Amendment agreed to.

  Clause 8. —(VARIATION AND RECALL BY THE SHERIFF OF CERTAIN ORDERS MADE BY THE COURT OF SESSION IN RESPECT OF MAINTENANCE, CUSTODY ETC., AND AMENDMENT OF SECTION 2 OF THE DIVORCE (SCOTLAND) ACT 1938.)
  Mr. Wylie: I beg to move, in page 6, line 4, after "1958", to insert:
  "where the granting of the order was not opposed by any of the parties to the action ".
  I do not propose to develop this Amendment at any great length, because it has been fully canvassed in Committee. I put it forward simply in the hope that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman have had second thoughts about it, because the Amendment would improve the Clause.
  What the Clause seeks to do is to simplify, and presumably cheapen, the procedure by which variations can be made in the sheriff's court of orders pronounced by the presiding judge in the Court of Session. I can readily understand that in certain matters there is a great deal to be said for that and where the variation sought is a variation in respect of payments of aliment, something which is readily ascertainable, the proposals are commendable. I would go so far as to say that where custody is involved, provided that custody has not been in dispute before the presiding judge in the Court of Session, there is also a great deal to be said for having the variation made in the sheriff's court. After all, for more than half a century the sheriff
  1738
  has been handling custody matters and is well able to do so.
  However, the real reason why I accept; the proposal in undefended cases is simply that when the variation is sought, what the sheriff is being asked to do is to look at the thing from the start, as it were, without having the difficulty of trying to ascertain the disputed grounds upon which the presiding judge made the original order.
  In a case where custody has been contested, where there has been a conflict between the parties, there would be no saving in time and no saving in expense by requiring the sheriff, even with the agreement of the parties, to vary that kind of order. It would involve the sheriff having to ascertain all the facts upon which the original decision was reached. That would mean extending the notes of evidence and going through the notes of evidence to try to ascertain the grounds upon which the presiding judge reached his decision. Having done that, the sheriff would then have to consider the changed circumstances upon which the variation was being sought. It has been said that no harm can be done provided both parties agree. It would be very difficult to visualise parties in a contested case of custody agreeing to anything of the sort. Even if both parties did agree, it seems against the public interest that they should be able, by that agreement, to involve a considerable amount of public expenditure, particularly in the legal aid type of case. If this variation is to go, by agreement of the parties, to the Sheriff's Court, then all the expense of extending the evidence, all the expense of considering the thing anew by the sheriff has to be incurred by public funds.
  In these circumstances, I think that this part of the Clause is contrary to the public interest. The purpose of this Amendment is to exclude from the operation of Clause 8 of the Bill, variation by the sheriff where custody has been in issue in the Court of Session at an earlier stage. We are certainly prepared to accept everything else but it appears to me that in the case, and it may be only an occasional case, where custody has been fought out, and these issues are usually fought out bitterly and at great length, it would be against the public interest to allow this variation, even by agreement of the parties.
  Mr. Willis: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) has fought a long battle on this issue and he has steadily retreated until tonight, when he has produced only one argument in favour of making it necessary for custody cases to go to the Court of Session—the argument of expense. Before proceeding, I might say that his Amendment does not quite do that. It is still fairly wide. We have looked at the merits of this and of allowing these changes in orders to be made by the Sheriff Court as against the Court of Session. This was fully rehearsed during the Committee stage of the Bill, and I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman has rather exaggerated the argument concerning expenditure.
  There are compensating savings on the other side, but in any case we feel that if the parties are prepared to go to the Sheriff Court they should be allowed to do so. It might be more convenient to them and it might conceivably save expenditure. That is why I said that the expenditure argument is exaggerated. It is not quite as simple as the hon. and learned Gentleman is suggesting. We can see no reason why a person should not be given the right to go to the Sheriff Court. Unless this is inconvenient, or one of the parties, and there may be three parties concerned, wishes to go to the Court of Session, he could do so. Anyone objecting to this could go to the Court of Session. Access to the Court of Session is not denied. All that we are doing is to provide a facility which we think will be of at least some help to some people who want to change an order made in connection with the custody of a child.
  Amendment negatived.
  Order for Third Reading read. — [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
  10.14 p.m.
  Mr. Willis: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  In commending the Bill to the House I will repeat that, although its provisions are for the most part somewhat technical in form, the changes made are important and should prove of substantial benefit to individuals affected by them.
  During the proceedings of the Bill, we promised to pursue the matter of the
  1740
  Thelusson restrictions, and this was referred to the Scottish Law Commission. We hope that it may be possible to finalise these considerations shortly, and should this be so we propose to take any action that might be necessary by way of Amendment during the proceedings in another place. Apart from this matter, other suggestions were made for the improvement of the Bill. Effect has been given to some of them. The Government are grateful to all those who made the suggestions. But even when they have not been adopted they have been of great value in illustrating difficulties in the current law and suggesting possible lines of reform. Everything said during the passage of the Bill here and in another place when it was considered earlier will be most carefully considered by the Government from this point of view.
  It is a happy augury for the future of law reform that criticisms of the Bill have been generally of a very constructive character. I should perhaps mention too how valuable has been the assistance of the Scottish Law Commission in suggesting topics for inclusion in a Bill of this kind and in offering advice on certain points. For a number of reasons into which I need not enter now, modernisation and reform of the law have for far too long received inadequate legislative attention. It is a subject to which the Government attach importance and on which they intend to be active. I hope that the Bill will be followed in time by other useful measures in the same field.
  10.17 p.m.
  Mr. Wylie: As we have made clear throughout the discussions on the Bill, we very much welcome proposals of this nature. I should like to think that perhaps a Bill of this sort may be introduced every year. Although we are naturally very proud of the legal system in Scotland, the scope for law reform is very great. Bills of this sort are exceedingly useful and will certainly receive the maximum co-operation from this side of the House.
  The proposals in the Bill are of a relatively minor character. There are vast areas of law reform of a much more contentious nature to which no doubt the Government will be directing their attention in the years ahead. We very much welcome the technical aspects of the Bill.
  As the Minister knows, I have throughout had the gravest doubt about the

  1741
  change in the wording of Clause 6 which took place in the earlier Bill when it was before another place in the last Parliament. I understand from what the Minister has said that we may be going back to the position which appertained at one time. It has always seemed to me that that is the proper approach to this aspect of the law.
  10.18 p.m.
  Mr. Ian MacArthur: I am sure that the Minister of State will be the first to recognise the enormous services rendered to the House and earlier to the Committee by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie). I do not want to repeat the old joke about the absence of the Lord Advocate from the Government Front Bench, but I am sure that the Minister will join us in thanking my hon. and learned Friend for his skilful and learned advice during the passage of the Bill.
  Mr. Willis: I thanked all those who made suggestions which we accepted and those who made suggestions which we did not accept.
  Mr. MacArthur: I appreciate that. But my hon. and learned Friend provides the hon. Gentleman not only with suggestions but with guidance which I am sure he would be the first to recognise and applaud.
  The Bill, which we welcome, has had a happy passage. It follows in a noble line of law reform Measures, some large, some small. I remember some years ago having the enormous pleasure, with the support of hon. Members opposite, of introducing and seeing through the House a small law reform Measure. There is so much scope for reforming the law in Scotland, and I hope that we can have further Measures of acceptable reform. If the Minister would devote more time to law reform and less time to selective employment taxes, we should be better pleased with him.
  10.19 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: In welcoming the Third Reading of the Bill, I should like
  1742
  to support what the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) said about future Measures. I hope that we shall take advantage of the procedure open to us in the Scottish Grand Committee so that we can go ahead of our English colleagues in law reform. Although I agree with the Minister of State in his modest commendation of himself that he got on very well without the Lord Advocate, I hope that I may be allowed to say that we would welcome one or other, or both, of the Law Officers in future. A remark like that comes ill from the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur), whose party succeeded in getting a Law Officer into the House only when they lost an election.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE
  Ordered,
  That for the remainder of the present Session the following paragraphs shall have effect:—

  (1) There shall be a Standing Committee to be known as the Welsh Grand Committee to consider such specified matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire as may be referred to them and to consist of all Members sitting for constituencies in Wales and Monmouthshire, together with not more than Five other Members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, who shall have power from time to time to discharge the Members so nominated by them and to appoint others in substitution for those discharged;

  (2) A Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of Public Business, to be decided without amendment or debate, to the effect that a specified matter or matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration;

  (3) If such a Motion be agreed to, the Welsh Grand Committee shall consider the matter or matters to them referred on not more than Six days in the Session, and shall report only that they have considered the said matter or matters.—[Mr. Fitch.]

  DOCKS AND HARBOURS [MONEY] (No. 2)
  [Queen's Recommendation signified]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
  [Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for regulating the employment of dock workers, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so payable under section 12 of the Harbours Act 1964 which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the class of persons to whom and the expenses in respect of which assistance by way of grant may be given under that section;

  (b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to enable the Minister of Transport to make loans under section 11 of the said Act of 1964 by virtue of provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the expenses in respect of which such loans may be made;

  (c) the raising under the National Loans Act 1939 of any money required for the purpose of providing sums to be issued as mentioned in paragraph (b) above;

  (d) the payment into the Exchequer and reissue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums received by the Minister of Transport in respect of any loans mentioned in paragraph (b) above.—[Mr. Swingler.]

  10.23 p.m.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: Does not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary propose to explain the Money Resolution? I have a lot to say about it, but it would be appropriate for the hon. Gentleman first to introduce it and to attempt to explain to the Committee what it is all about. On a Bill which has gone through the Committee stage, it would be very cavalier to ask for a second Money Resolution without one word of explanation or an Amendment on the Paper to tell us what it is all about.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler): The Money Resolution was moved by my right hon. Friend the Minister and I thought that it was well understood. Naturally, however, I am
  1744
  only too pleased to explain it. It is straightforward.
  The Resolution is in fulfilment of the Government's promise concerning investment grants for docks and harbours. As the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) knows very well from our proceedings in Standing Committee on the Docks and Harbours Bill, this is an amended Money Resolution which goes much wider than the original Resolution. It is necessary because on Report we are putting down a new Clause to the Bill to provide for investment grants in docks and harbours.
  Briefly, the purposes are these. Subparagraph (a) of the Money Resolution provides for the extension of the Minister's powers under Sections 11 and 12 of the Harbours Act, 1964, to make grants not only to statutory harbour authorities but also to persons acting as harbour authorities or to other persons who undertake works for the improvement of harbours and docks. It simply extends the powers which now exist in Sections 11 and 12 of the Harbours Act, 1964, beyond the statutory harbour authorities to other persons who undertake capital works for the improvement of harbours and docks.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: Is there any extra money involved in it?
  Mr. Swingler: Naturally there will be extra money involved. Evidently the hon. Member has not read this morning's HANSARD in which my right hon. Friend explained in answer to a Question put to her by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) about what financial assistance is involved in the Money Resolution. If the hon. Member wishes to have figures of the additional investment that the Government are providing, we shall be only too pleased to give him all the details. We can write to him and put it on record that the Government have sought to extend the investment grants in this way.
  That is the meaning of the first subparagraph of the Money Resolution. The second, third and fourth sub-paragraphs will enable us to rectify what was regarded as a possible error in the Harbours Act, 1964, where the Minister was empowered to make grants and loans to statutory harbour

  1745
  authorities for capital works for the improvement and maintenance of the harbours, but did not provide for those who were initiating a new and separate harbour. The purpose of sub-paragraphs (b) to (d) is to ensure that the Minister's power to make loans under the Act of 1964 is extended to those harbour authorities who are responsible for new and separate harbours.
  I hope that that satisfactorily explains the meaning of the Money Resolution.
  Mr. Ridley: I am afraid that that is not at all a satisfactory answer, and I want to complain about this state of affairs.
  This morning, the Government put on the Order Paper a Money Resolution to the Docks and Harbours Bill, which has gone through its Committee stage complete. We have no supporting document to tell us what it is about, apart from a written Question and Answer and an article in The Times newspaper. The hon. Gentleman has not tabled or discussed the Amendment to which the Money Resolution refers.
  When we get the Amendment, we will have had the Committee stage and there will have been no chance of examining and discussing it. There will have been no chance to amend the new Clause which the hon. Gentleman is going to put down. He tells us that the new Clause will deal with investment grants, which this side of the Committee do not accept at all. I cannot discuss the new Clause, because I have not seen it, but there is a Bill in Committee upstairs which has been closely fought by the Opposition because they disagree with the whole principle of it.
  This is not some perfectly acceptable little legal nicety which both sides would find unobjectionable. Why did not the hon. Gentleman bring the Clause forward in the original Bill, or even as late as last Thursday? After all, it is only five days since the Committee last sat. Why did he have to wait until the night after a very long night sitting when he hoped that hon. Members might not notice? Why did he not put the Clause forward when the Committee was sitting on the Bill, when no doubt it would have been given favourable consideration?
  1746
  It is a most discourteous thing to do to the Committee to bring forward a major proposal of this sort as soon as the Committee has finished, thereby dodging the Committee stage of the Bill. We shall expect the hon. Gentleman to recommit this Bill. We are not going to accept this major change in the Bill at this late stage without any warning. I know the Minister telephoned my right hon. Friend this morning, but this is not an adequate warning for other Members of the House, and I can only say that this has been a thoroughly unsatisfactory way of treating the Opposition in the matter.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Times has been our only informant. The First Secretary tells us that the whole of the docks industry is going to be nationalised. He tells us that no less than £9 million this year and £13 million in future years is to be spent in investment in the docks—
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Sir Eric, is it not the case that on a Money Resolution one cannot discuss the whole basis of whether or not the docks industry should be nationalised? There is nothing in the Resolution about the nationalisation of the docks, much as this may be necessary. This is a question on which some of us who represent docks areas would like to speak. There is much argument in favour of the nationalisation of the docks.
  The Chairman: I am listening carefully to what the hon. Member says. If he pursues that line of argument he will be out of order.
  Mr. Ridley: Further to that point of order, Sir Eric. This Money Resolution, we are told by the supporting Memorandum and in The Times, will enable the right hon. Lady the Minister of Transport to lend £9 million this year to harbour undertakings. This Money Resolution comes before the Committee and gives power to the Government to lend—in fact, to give—£9 million to harbour undertakers—indeed, an unlimited sum because—
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order, Sir Eric. The hon. Gentleman is referring to what is reported in The Times

  1747
  this morning. I thought we were discussing this Money Resolution. I did not think we were discussing what was said in The Times as to whether the Minister did or did not suggest that the Government should spend £9 million. If this is in order, are we allowed to develop what was published in The Times!
  The Chairman: No, it is not permissible on the Money Resolution to discuss projects for nationalisation or expenditure referred to in The Times.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: Further to that point of order. This is a Money Resolution, and the only reference that has been made to money has been a reference by my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). I should not have thought the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) would have objected to my hon. Friend's remarks.
  The Chairman: The Joint Parliamentary Secretary has explained the object of this Money Resolution, which is to facilitate an amendment of the Bill. The hon. Member is entitled to ask the Minister questions about the scope of the Money Resolution, but he is not enabled on the Money Resolution to pursue matters referred to in The Times newspaper article.
  Mr. Ridley: With the greatest respect, Sir Eric, this Money Resolution gives the Government unlimited powers to give the harbour undertakers public money, without any stipulation as to what they are to do with it. Therefore, in my respectful submission, it entitled harbour undertakers to buy up the employers' businesses in their docks. It is an absolute carte blanche Money Resolution for the nationalisation of the docks, as it stands. I do not intend to pursue that matter on this occasion, but I submit for the benefit of the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) that it is in order to discuss the use of this money, the purpose for which it is to be used, and indeed to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us how much money he is going to use under this Resolution and what is the limit. I do not think the Committee should be asked at short notice to vote large sums of money which, so far as we know, are
  1748
  unlimited and the purpose of which, so far as we have had any guidance from the Parliamentary Secretary and The Times, is for the nationalisation of the harbours in this country.
  I do not agree with the principle of investment grants. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will give us an opportunity, by recommitting the Bill, to discus the new Clause which he has suddenly mentioned. I hope that he will explain why, after the Bill has been through its entire Committee stage, he should bring forward this additional Money Resolution and the new Clause, which we have not yet seen—and why he could not have brought the Clause forward at least last Thursday, so that we could consider the matter in Committee.
  He makes it difficult for the Opposition to co-operate, as we have cooperated in the past. If he will respond to this request we might agree to let the Money Resolution go through.
  Mr. Swingler: All I can say in reply to the hon. Gentleman is that this is the earliest opportunity, on which we were able to produce the Money Resolution to enable us to put down the new Clause on Report. I took the earliest opportunity—not this morning but yesterday morning—to inform the right hon. Gentleman who led for the Opposition in Committee, and who apparently is not here now, of the context and meaning of this move. It is not for me to say; it is for the Chair to say, whether Amendments—and if so, what sort—will be allowed on the new Clause when it is put down on Report. I simply say that the Money Resolution is presented to enable us to put down the new Clause, which is to empower the Minister of Transport to make these investment grants.
  I take note of the fact that the Opposition, apparently, are opposed to investment grants being made to the people concerned with the improvement, maintenance and management of the docks and harbours, except for the statutory harbour authorities, for which the Conservative Government provided grants and loans in the Harbours Act, 1964. The Money Resolution is produced simply to extend Sections 11 and 12 of that Act to enable the Minister of Transport to make investment grants not only to

  1749
  statutory harbour authorities but to those harbour authorities which are not statutory authorities, and others which undertake capital works for the improvement, maintenance and management of harbours.
  I am astonished that the Opposition are opposed to these capital grants being made. We take note of that fact, and on Report shall hope to see the Chair accepting a manuscript Amendment to our new Clause—an Amendment which will no doubt seek to deprive other than statutory harbour authorities from the benefit of investment grants.
  It is necessary to have this Money Resolution so that this matter can be discussed in connection with the new Clause. We believe that these grants will be a progressive step towards providing the necessary capital investment in the docks and harbours which have so long been neglected.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for regulating the employment of dock workers, it is expedient to authorise—
  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so
  payable under section 12 of the Harbours Act 1964 which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the class of persons to whom and the expenses in respect of which assistance by way of grant may be given under that section;
  (b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to enable the Minister of Transport to make loans under section 11 of the said Act of 1964 by virtue of provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the expenses in respect of which such loans may be made;
  (c) the raising under the National Loans Act 1939 of any money required for the purpose of providing sums to be issued as mentioned in paragraph (b) above;
  (d) the payment into the Exchequer and reissue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums received by the Minister of Transport in respect of any loans mentioned in paragraph (b) above.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  STRANGERS
  Notice taken that Strangers were present: —Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 110 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put the Question, That Strangers do withdraw: —
  The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 127.

  Division No. 68.]

  AYES

  [10.40 p.m.

  Batsford, Brian

  Hynd, John

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Longden, Gilbert

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Blaker, Peter

  MoAdden, Sir Stephen

  Urwin, T. W.

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Crouch, David

  Manuel, Archie

  Whitelaw, William

  Currie, G. B, H.

  Mawby, Ray

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Elliott, R. W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Eyre, Reginald

  Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.)

  Wylie, N. R.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Sir Charles Taylor and

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Mr. James Dance.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Alldritt, Walter

  Buchan, Norman

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Archer, Peter

  Cant, R. B.

  Eadie, Alex

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Carmichael, Neil

  Ellis, John

  Ashley, Jack

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Ensor, David

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

  Coe, Denis

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

  Coleman, Donald

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Concannon, J. D.

  Floud, Bernard

  Baxter, William

  Conlan, Bernard

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Beaney, Alan

  Dalyell, Tam

  Forrester, John

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

  Fowler. Gerry

  Bishop, E. S.

  Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Blackburn, F.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Gardner, A. J.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Dell, Edmund

  Garrow, Alex

  Booth, Albert

  Dewar, Donald

  Ginsburg, David

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Doig, Peter

  Gourlay, Harry

  Brooks, Edwin

  Dunn, James A.

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Gregory, Arnold

  Grey, Charles (Durham)

  McGuire, Michael

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Hamling, William

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Short, Rt. Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Hannan, William

  Maclennan, Robert

  Silkin, John (Deptford)

  Harper, Joseph

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Small, William

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Snow, Julian

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

  Steel, David (Roxburgh)

  Hooley, Frank

  Mapp, Charles

  Swain, Thomas

  Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

  Marquand, David

  Swingler, Stephen

  Hunter, Adam

  Mason, Roy

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

  Millan, Bruce

  Thornton, Ernest

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wallace, George

  Judd, Frank

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Whitaker, Ben

  Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

  Newens, Stan

  Whitlock, William

  Lawson, George

  Oakes, Gordon

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

  Lee, John (Reading)

  Orme, Stanley

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  McBride, Neil

  Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

  Mr. Brian O'Malley and

  McCann, John

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Mr. Albert Murray.

  MaeColl, James

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  BOOK (QUESTION OF PROSECUTION)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fitch.]
  10.47 p.m.
  Sir Charles Taylor: I very much regret that, though I moved that strangers should withdraw, I have not got an opportunity, in private session, of telling the House about this filthy and disgusting book. It is too frightful for words and, for that reason, I will not quote from it tonight, for I would not wish to embarrass the people in the galleries or anyone else. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Certainly that is so. And, speaking frankly, if hon. Members had read this book they would realise what I mean when I say that.
  Had the House given me the opportunity, I would, in secret session, have quoted parts of the book, still with embarrassment, so that the House could make up its mind about the contents of it. I will not mention the title of the book, because I do not want to give it any publicity. I had intended to quote some of the vicious and beastly paragraphs from it, but I will not do so. I understand from the Attorney-General that the Director of Public Prosecutions does not think that this book will deprave or corrupt. I wish that I had the opportunity to quote some of the passages to see if hon. Members in this Chamber would think that it would deprave and corrupt.
  I must make my speech very short this evening because I cannot make my
  1752
  case without quoting passages from the book. Therefore, I hope with the approval of the House, I shall arrange for a copy of the book to be placed in the Library so that any hon. Member who wants to satisfy himself about my good intentions in this matter will have an opportunity of satisfying himself that what I believe is right and that the book is wrong and has a wrong influence on society and a wrong influence on young people. I hope that every hon. Member when he has looked at the book will realise if he is a father or a grandfather that he would not like his children to read this book which is readily on sale at a great number of bookshops throughout the country.
  It was sent to me out of the blue by a most reputable bookseller in Oxford called Blackwells, who refused to stock it—God bless the firm for that. I will place a copy in the Library so that it is available for any hon. Member to read. I hope that any hon. Member who agrees with me will subsequently sign a Motion condemning the Attorney-General for not urging the Director of Public Prosecutions to take action in this beastly case.
  10.52 p.m.
  Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I have read only a few passages of this book. I confirm what the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) has said about it. The passages which I have read could in my view be of no interest to anyone who was not a sadistic sexual maniac. It is the kind of reading matter

  1753
  of the murderers of the children on the moors.
  I hope that I am in order. I greatly regret the vote which has just been taken when the hon. Member spied strangers.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot discuss that now. The House has made a decision.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I only add that I hope the hon. Member may have your permission, Mr. Speaker, on another occasion to bring this matter before the House again when we can decide whether or not the galleries should be cleared on that occasion and that a difficult decision will be made.
  Mr. R. H. Turton: As the Chairman of the Select Committee on Obscene Publications, this book has been shown to me. I have been shocked that the Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions have not prosecuted in this case. All the evidence by the late Director to the Committee was to the effect that the law was altered to provide that books of no literary merit but which dealt only with pornography and filth would be banned in this country.
  10.54 p.m.
  Mr. James Dance: I have had the misfortune to read various passages of the book and I agree with everything which has been said about it. It is really quite appalling. I believe that the whole House and the country owe a debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) for raising this matter. Many of us feel that there is an appalling lowering of standards at present on television and certainly in publications of this kind. Therefore, I sincerely hope that the wise words of my hon. Friend will be listened to intently by the Attorney-General and that he will take some positive action to see that this filth is not perpetrated on the nation in future.
  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamling: I do not propose to keep the House for long. I object to the tone of this debate so far and the implication that we should attempt to impose a
  1754
  censorship on the basis of this sort of debate. We have a good law on obscene publications. For my part, I have complete confidence in my right hon. and learned Friend and the advice he may offer to the Director of Public Prosecutions. This country has too much censorship already. There are too many people trying to tell other people what they should or should not read or what they should or should not view. There are too many nosy parkers.
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Rhodes: I remind the House that it was not very long ago that I had an Adjournment debate on this very same subject. On that occasion the Attorney-General told the House of the tremendous quantity of filthy literature which is flooding the country, mainly coming in from outside. On that occasion I gave evidence to the House of how this literature was falling into the hands of young people and, in my view, damaging their minds.
  I have not had the opportunity of reading this book, but I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) on raising this subject again, because on that occasion the Attorney-General said that he was considering taking stricter measures to check the flood of this filthy literature coming into the country. From my information, this action has not been taken in the last 12 months.
  Sir C. Taylor: This book is printed and published in England.
  Mr. Rhodes: That is fair enough. I would accept that the festering sore which has been brought in from outside is now finding a market in this country. If it were not out of order, I would refer to the fact that this kind of publication may be subject to benefits under the Selective Employment Tax; but that is another story.
  I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) on the subject of censorship. We have to protect young people from this kind of literature which is flooding the country. If the Government were to take strong action on this matter I am sure that they would have the support of every mother and father in the nation.
  10.58 p.m.
  Mr. Gilbert Longden: I rise only to say how much I agree with the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Rhodes) and to ask my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) whether he would say where the book was published and name the publishers. I myself have not heard of the book. I do not even now know its name, nor the name of its author. I think that we might be told the name of its publisher.
  I have been in communication with the Attorney-General about this sort of literature which has been posted to schoolboys in my constituency. They have sent it through their masters to me. I am told by the Attorney-General that he greatly deplores this sort of thing but that the maximum penalty is £10. I therefore would like my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne to say who the publishers are at least, and I express my amazement that the Attorney-General refuses to send this to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
  10.59 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Elwyn Jones): May I say immediately that strong steps are taken to deal with the flood of pornography that the country has been facing for many years. Perhaps if I may give shortly one or two of the relevant statistics the House will see, first, the extent of the challenge of this business of pornography and the extent of successful action by the authorities.
  Between 1961 and 1963 the Customs authorities and the police between them seized 1,863,000 obscene novels which had been imported. Hundreds of thousands of obscene magazines were seized during that period. In 1964, no fewer than 401,000 obscene paperback novels were seized, together with 579,000 magazines of a similar character. There were 35 prosecutions under the Obscene Publications Act in 1963, 50 in 1964 and 49 in 1965.
  I will deal immediately with some of the problems which arise when the Director of Public Prosecutions has to make these difficult decisions. One thing is clear. The most deplorable thing would be to have an unsuccessful
  1756
  prosecution in respect of mis odious book. It would overnight become a best-seller. It has now almost ceased to be sold; most booksellers have not touched it. The gravest harm that could be caused now would be to have an unsuccessful prosecution of this book.
  Let the House consider calmly the legal problems that face those who have to decide whether to take that grave risk. The law relating to the matter is governed by the Obscene Publications Acts of 1959 and 1964. Section 1(1) of the 1959 Act provides that an article, including a book, shall be
  "deemed to be obscene if its effect … is, if taken as a whole, such as to tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it."
  It is a defence under Section 4(1) of the same Act to prove that
  "publication of the article in question is justified as being for the public good on the ground that it is in the interests of science, literature, art or learning, or of other objects of general concern."
  The effect of these sections is, as the learned judge explained to the jury in the Lady Chatterley case, that the book must be read as a whole, and not selected extracts. He explained to the jury that it was not deciding questions of taste or exercising the functions of a censor, and the mere fact that it was shocked or disgusted by the book did not answer the critical question which had to be decided, namely, did the book tend to deprave and corrupt those likely to read it.
  He explained that, even if the book taken as a whole was proved by the prosecution to be obscene, if the defendant could establish the probability that its merits as a novel were so high that they outbalanced the obscenity, so that publication was for the public good, the jury must acquit. As we all know, the jury did acquit, and "Lady Chatterley's Lover ", instead of selling a few thousand copies, sold by the million. That was the consequence of the unsuccessful prosecution in that case.
  When deciding whether or not to prosecute, the Director of Public Prosecutions must consider, first, whether the book is obscene within the meaning of the Act, not merely that certain passages

  1757
  are shocking and disgusting; secondly, whether the defence of justification will succeed; and thirdly, whether the risk of incurring widespread and effective publicity for the book is out of all proportion to the chances of success in prosecuting it
  In this case, the first difficulty was that, whatever one's own opinion of the merits of the book, the literary critics were almost unanimously agreed that it is a book of literary merit. I must be careful in quoting what the nature of the criticisms was, but the literary critic of the Listener —[Interruption.]—I do not know whether the Spectator is more attractive to hon. Members opposite, but I should have thought that the Listener is a publication of high quality—said:
  "No book could well be less obscene … We are spared nothing of the snarls and tribulations of pimps, queens, and ' hip queers ', but the tone is wholly compassionate although sometimes whipped by the kinesis of anger."
  The Scotsman described the book as:
  "One of the most meaningful landmarks in the literature of this generation. It is a young man's nightmare of urban misery and squalor most minutely reprieved and quite unforgettably expressed … a personal statement worth a dozen self-immolations against a vicious, violent, mean, sex-obsessed, and almost mindless process, which is life in a small section of …"—
  and the name of the place which is described is mentioned.
  Another critic describes it as
  "…a beautiful book … very, very moral."
  Then the Irish Times said:
  "…it is important to state that I believe the author to be writing out of the deepest of Swiftian motives."
  That was the nature of the literary criticism of the book. So it was not at any rate regarded in literary circles as yet another trashy paperback from America.
  Mr. Turton Mr. Turton rose —
  The Attorney-General: I am sorry. 1 cannot give way. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman read it?"] Of course I have read the book. I am bound to say that I did not enjoy the exercise.
  The Director of Public Prosecutions decided to have the question of the literary merit of this book investigated
  1758
  and the opinion of a leading authority on English literature at one of our universities was sought. This opinion was that the novel, while no masterpiece, had considerable literary merit. It would be very difficult, in the light of this experience, probably impossible, to find literary critics who would disagree. This authority said that there was
  "… no question of self indulgence or of a cynically pornographic intention given a moral veneer … This is a shocking book, setting out to publicise squalor and to evoke pity, not to gratify its readers. It is also very different from Lady Chatterley … where sexual detail is part of an attempt to show feeling and beauty in actions and words that are often degraded or ashamed."
  The book
  "… uses its shameful details and its crude language in order to show degradation. Its method of exposure is sensational, but seems to me to be sternly moral and honest. The language and structure and very compressed presentation makes it a book which is far from easy to read, though certainly accessible to the educated reader."
  Than was not the end of the matter. The Director investigated the question of obscenity and sought the opinion of one of the leading medical authorities as to the effect of this book on its readers. This was that only a small proportion of young people were likely to be depraved by reading it and they were the people who possessed
  "… abnormal tendencies, latent or dormant, in their make-up perhaps sexually leading to undesirable behaviour."
  These were the circumstances which led the Director to the conclusion, in which he was supported by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General and myself, that it was far from sure that a prosecution would succeed in respect of.this book and indeed that there was a very real danger of failure in the prosecution. We had to give the most anxious consideration to the consequences which might flow from the publicity given to an unsuccessful trial.
  As I had said, the book is only known to a small number of people and indeed I do not think, as the hon. Gentleman indicated, that it has even been generally on sale. It has not received extensive publicity and the chances are that unless it is unsuccessfully prosecuted it is unlikely to circulate among any more than those who are determined to read this sort of literature.

  1759
  As I have said, if it was prosecuted, if the prosecution failed—and there was a grave danger of this failure—the book would become a best seller overnight. I can only repeat that the Director, my hon. and learned Friend and I are determined to take a stand against this flood of pornography but we are not going to make the error of a mistaken
  1760
  judgment which can only add force to that flood. When the opportunity arises we shall press forward with this battle against commerce in this filth without any kind of hesitation.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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HOSPITALS
  Paralysed Patients (Weekly Cost)
  Paralysed Patients (Weekly Cost)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Multiple Sclerosis (Number of Cases)
  Multiple Sclerosis (Number of Cases)
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Nationalised Industries
  Nationalised Industries
  Salary and Wage Earners
  Salary and Wage Earners
  Seamen (Change of Occupation)
  Seamen (Change of Occupation)
  Wage and Salary Settlements
  Wage and Salary Settlements
  Factory Inspectors, Hornchurch and Romford
  Factory Inspectors, Hornchurch and Romford
GAS
  North Sea Supplies (Scotland)
  North Sea Supplies (Scotland)
SCOTLAND
  A914 (White Line Markings)
  A914 (White Line Markings)
BOARD OF TRADE
  British Hospital Medical Equipment Exhibition, Beirut
  British Hospital Medical Equipment Exhibition, Beirut
  Patent Office
  Patent Office
  Merchant Navy
  Merchant Navy
WALES
  National Film School
  National Film School

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester
The Lord O'Neill—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Viscount Downe (L. Dawnay)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

BRITISH HONDURAS AND GUATEMALA
2.35 p.m.
Loan MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, before I put my Question, I should like to advise your Lordships that I have commercial interests in British Honduras. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will lay before the House the details of any agreement they have entered into with Guatemala, affecting the future of British Honduras when full independence is granted to the latter country in 1968; and whether they will give an assurance that no such agreement will be entered into on this subject with Guatemala without the full assent of the Government of British Honduras.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have not entered into any agreement with Guatemala affecting the future of British Honduras; nor will they do so without the agreement of the Government of British Honduras.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his reply and for his assurance that the British Government have not entered into any agreement. I do not know whether the noble Lord could advise us how the stories have got about in the Press on this matter. I read in to-day's Times that there were riots in Belize yesterday because of rumours of such an agreement.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the rumours have got about following the speech made by a Member of the Parliament there, but the fact is, as I have already said, that Her Majesty's Government have not entered into any agreement, and the stories which were circulating are not based upon the facts of the situation.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Joint Committee of British Honduras, Guatemala and ourselves, which was agreed on after the Puerto Rico Conference in 1962, have ever met and whether the Guatemalans have ever consented to have a meeting?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the position is that this Government, jointly with the Guatemalan Government, and in agreement with the Government of British Honduras, invited a mediator to consider the situation, the mediator to be appointed by the President of the United States. This mediator has been at work. It is upon him that the present hopes for progress are based. And the rumours, to which my noble friend Lord Macpherson of Drumochter has referred, relate apparently to proposals which the mediator may or may not have been considering.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord said "mediator". Is he definitely a mediator, and not an arbitrator?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, he is a mediator, certainly. If the mediator makes any recommendations eventually, these recommendations will need to be agreed by the parties concerned.

WESTMINSTER ABBEY ANNIVERSARY SERVICE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The House may wish to know the arrangements for to-morrow. The House will meet at 11 a.m. and, after Prayers, the House will adjourn for the purpose of attending the service in Westminster Abbey. Peers are asked then to proceed to the places which have been reserved for them in the South Transept of the Abbey, and to be in their places by 11.40 a.m. After the service, the House will be resumed at 2 p.m. for the normal Business on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the House do meet tomorrow at 11 o'clock, and do then adjourn for the purpose of attending a Service for Parliament in Westminster Abbey, in commemoration of the Nine Hundredth Anniversary of the Abbey; and thereafter do meet again at Two o'clock in the afternoon.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

OVERSEAS AID BILL
2.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Strictly speaking, this is a machinery Bill. It provides authority for the Minister of Overseas Development to use funds for certain specified immediate purposes, and since a Bill was needed at an early date for these purposes, the opportunity has been taken to rationalise and regularise the authority previously vested in the Minister of Overseas Development by Statutory Instruments. Up to now monies have been provided on various departmental Votes and subject to the annual authority of Appropriation Acts. From the point of view of Parliament, I hope that the House will agree that it is appropriate that money-raising powers to support these various aid and technical assistance projects should be placed in orderly, open and legal fashion
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with my right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development.
During the Committee stage, I hope that the House will agree to an Amendment which will make quite clear the authority of my right honourable friend to make aid available to the Protectorate of Aden and certain outlying islands and which will also, I hope, meet the point raised in another place about naming specifically the Federal Government of South Arabia. But, although I am seeking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a Bill which only establishes machinery, it is, I think we shall all agree, machinery for the purpose of disbursing very large sums of our sorely pressed taxpayers' money.
We had a useful and interesting debate on technical assistance to developing countries, introduced so well by the noble Lord, Lord Todd, in January of this year, during which we discussed some of the fascinating projects on which aid is being spent, or could be spent; and, of course, it would be possible again to-day to speak at length about individual projects. I hope, however, that it will be generally acceptable to the House if I use this occasion to set this Bill against the background of Government policy and Government thinking in relation to overseas aid.
Government aid to developing countries is now a big and expensive operation. Some say that it should be bigger; others argue that it is already too big and too expensive. Much experience has already been amassed, but many criticisms are made. I hope to put this present Bill into something of an historical perspective and to consider against the background of our experience some of the general criticisms which have been made inside and outside of Parliament.
My Lords, before the Second World War, most of the backward areas of the world were dependent upon, and were controlled by, European Powers. They were administered for the most part by European officials, and the infrastructure of economic development, to the extent that is was undertaken, was supervised by European specialists. For the rest, economic development was left mainly to private enterprise, and the typical Colony depended upon the export of one or

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more primary products to the industrialised nations of the West. The pre-war period saw only the very beginnings of the idea that the economic, as against the political, development of a dependent territory was the responsibility of the Imperial Power. After the war, which, as noble Lords will still remember, we fought for principles of democracy and freedom, the movement towards colonial independence coincided with a growing conception of the need for, and indeed the inescapability of, greater interdependence and economic co-operation though out the world. These ideas assumed concrete form in the foundation of the Special Agencies of the United Nations and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development.
At the same time as the poorer countries more and more insistently demanded to share in this right of political freedom for which we had fought, their material poverty, especially as compared with the peoples of the industrialised West, became strikingly obvious and, I believe, more intolerable to the consciences of many who belonged to the so-called affluent societies. It is relevant to note, I think, in the context of what I am saying, that during this period there was a wider acknowledgement in Western society of the role of Government in economic affairs; and it was in line with that acknowledgement that the amount of governmental aid to the dependencies of the leading Imperial Power, which was Britain, greatly increased. After their effort under the Marshall Plan to revive war-stricken Europe, the United States, too, turned their attention to the dangers which were presented to world stability by the extreme poverty in various areas of the world. Then, after their own recovery in Europe had been completed, the European nations also began to contribute to this development of other countries, as yet backward or underdeveloped, or, as we now say, developing.
The administration of United Kingdom aid grew up rather haphazardly, and before 1964 responsibilities were divided among about half a dozen different Government Departments. The first step towards a Ministry of Overseas Development was taken in 1961, with the foundation of the Department of Technical Co-operation; and then the Labour Government of 1964, believing that a unified
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administration, with one specialist Department responsible for the aid programme as a whole, was called for, set up the present Ministry of Overseas Development. This Bill now provides in proper and more permanent form the powers which that one Department needs.
I should like to say a word or two about the alleged conflict, which some claim exists, between Government and private enterprise investment. Her Majesty's present Government believe that Government aid and private investment both have important roles to play in these developing countries. They are different but complementary roles, and neither can wholly succeed without the other. British official aid is heavily concentrated on the public sector, and we believe that private investment on any considerable scale in the developing countries is directly dependent upon the creation of an infrastructure of the basic public utilities. It is impossible, I think, to imagine that private capital, which, as opposed to Government aid, legitimately seeks a considerable and probably early return on its investment, could possibly meet either the nature or the full extent of the needs of the developing world.
As between aid and trade, Her Majesty's Government believe that export promotion should not be a main or immediate objective of official aid giving; but on a long-term view it is clearly in the interests of a great trading nation that world prosperity should increase, and if Western aid brings this about, then we may expect, with others, to benefit in the long term. Our own policy, therefore, is to regard aid-financed exports as provided primarily to supply the goods and services required by the developing countries for their development programmes; while commercial credit, we hold, is for the supply of goods which our own exporters wish to sell. These objectives, both of them desirable, are quite separate, and it is our policy to maintain the distinction between the two.
Since we believe that there is not only a moral obligation but a political and economic necessity for these official aid programmes, we view with concern the fact that the world growth of aid during the present decade has shown some signs of abating, and that the progress of the1950s in increasing incomes per head in

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the developing countries has slowed down since 1960. One reason, we believe, is the fact that official aid represents only one possible use of national resources and competes with other forms of public expenditure, all of which everywhere, including this country, are on the increase and are never sufficient to meet the demands of the electors in the donor countries.
Over the past year or two one has discerned—and it is impossible to take part in the discussions or listen to Question and Answer in this House without realising it—that there is a certain disenchantment with the results so far of the official aid programmes. Perhaps people expect a progress in development much more rapid than has been proved to be possible or realistic. There is also in sections of this country the feeling—indeed, it was expressed in another place when they were considering this Bill—that our own programme imposes too great a strain on our economy at the present time. Since we are all, or should be, concerned with getting our own national balance of payments in order, I thought it worth considering for a moment the actual impact of aid on our balance of payments problem.
It is commonly supposed that the whole of our overseas aid disbursements constitute a 100 per cent. charge on our foreign exchange reserves. But this is not the case. The Ministry of Overseas Development last year undertook, in consultation with other interested Departments, a study of this question and the conclusions suggest that as much as two-thirds of additional British aid took the form of British goods shipped abroad. This represents, therefore, mainly costs in resources rather than costs in foreign exchange. Admittedly, in present circumstances, the foreign exchange cost of aid is enhanced by the probability that exports generated by aid may be partly provided at the expense of satisfying other demands, and may even lead to increased imports or reduced exports to other countries. When all such factors are taken into account, however, the marginal burden on the balance of payments of increased aid was estimated, on the least favourable assumption, not to exceed 50 per cent.
There is another school of criticism which quotes, and has quoted in this
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House, from the National Plan and from the Election addresses, to prove that we are not doing enough. The fact is that our total aid has been steadily increasing, from £ 81 million in 1957–58 to £151 million in 1960–61, and to £191 million in 1964–65. We expect the final out-turn for 1965–66 to exceed £200 million, and our target for the current financial year is £225 million. What can be done in subsequent years will depend directly upon the recovery of our own economy. In the meantime, we are concentrating on a number of main lines of policy.
One vitally important objective is to increase what has been called the cost-effectiveness of our aid. This is sought not only by the greater co-ordination achieved by a single responsible Ministry, but by a careful scrutiny of individual country's development programmes. This scrutiny is aided by the Ministry's economic planning staff, and by an increase in the number of posts in our overseas missions in those countries which are relevant to this development programme. More effective use should also follow from the policy of devoting a larger proportionate increase to technical aid. Disbursements on technical assistance. rose from £25 million in 1964, to £32 million in 1965, and further increases can be expected in future years. An injection of skills and knowledge is without question the first requirement of most of these developing countries, and a number of important new initiatives to this end were announced in last year's White Paper.
Another feature of aid policy has been an increase of contributions to multilateral agencies. These showed a marked increase in 1965, and the intention is to increase further our contributions, in company with other donors, as the needs of these international organisations grow and as our own resources permit. The funds of the International Development Association will need to be replenished from 1968. I should also add, in this context, that anew and potentially extremely important channel of multilateral aid may, if all donor countries can reach agreement, come into being towards the end of the decade. As a result of a British initiative at the first United Nations Conference on Trade and Development in 1964, the International Bank has been studying the possibilities of a scheme whereby these countries whose

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development plans are threatened with destruction by reasons of unexpected falls in export earnings may receive a special form of assistance. The details of the scheme and the responsibility of its administration have yet to be decided, but the British Government will participate fully in the international discussions which will, we hope, lead to the adoption of an acceptable and constructive new development in international co-operation.
Nevertheless, although there is this trend towards an increase in multilateral aid, bilateral aid will undoubtedly remain the largest part of our programme, and our policy in this connection is to give preference so far as possible to those countries and territories where our contribution will have the greatest effect on development in the long term, and will also take into account the relative poverty of the countries with which we deal. As I have already stated on another occasion in this House, we also recognise that countries which are members of the Commonwealth, or with which we have had important and historical links and common ties, have a special claim upon our resources. As our own resources permit, we hope to be in a position to increase our aid to foreign countries.
I ought to say something, I think, about the terms of aid. The terms of British aid have been progressively liberalised in recognition of the problem of the increasing debt burden facing these developing countries. Nearly half our total aid is in grant form, and over the years we have progressively softened the terms of our loans by giving grace periods on the repayment of capital and waivers of interest for the first years of the life of the loan. Last year the Government announced their decision to make development loans free of interest in appropriate cases. This, together with suitable arrangements for capital repayment, has enabled us to lighten the burden of debt service. Decisions on which countries are eligible for interest-free loans are based upon the economic position of the recipient country, particularly its income per head and its present and prospective balance-of-payments position, as well as its capacity to achieve a balanced and sustained development.
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I have not been through the Bill clause by clause. It has already been dealt with in that way before it reached this House. Of course, if there are any particular questions on the precise provisions of the Bill, I should be very ready to try to answer them later this afternoon or during the course of our Committee stage. Meanwhile, I hope that the general provisions and the central purpose of the Bill will be acceptable, and that noble Lords will feel able to give it a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Beswick.)
3.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, we must be grateful to the noble Lord for having described the purpose of the Bill to which we are asked to give a Second Reading to-day. The noble Lord's colleague in another place, the Minister of Overseas Development, in opening the Second Reading debate there, said that it constituted a modest, if far from negligible, contribution to the discharging of our responsibilities in achieving a just distribution of the world's wealth, in banishing hunger and disease and conquering illiteracy. I would emphasise, however, that he used the word "modest", and as your Lordships know from the debate which we had on the Motions of my noble friend, Lord Todd, and myself in January of this year, many of us are concerned that perhaps this aid is too modest.
We discussed this at some length during that debate and I will not repeat what was said at that time, except that many of us, of varying political hues, are disappointed that the hopeful statements in the Labour Party Manifesto, and indeed in the White Paper of August last year, were not echoed in the National Plan, which stated that aid was to be restrained. Your Lordships may remember that even the Fabian Society bulletin, Venture, went so far as to mention that on the developing countries the tone of the National Plan was utterly negative. On the other hand, as my right honourable friend Mr. Richard Wood said in another place, the total aid given during the so-called "thirteen wasted years" of Conservative rule amounted to nearly £1,500 million, and it rose from £53 million to £190 million in the last year. I know, of course, that

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there has been a rise this year to some £225 million, as the noble Lord has told us, but the increase is nothing like so considerable as we had been led to hope from previous Labour statements.
Apart from this general observation I would say that we on this side of the House look upon this Bill very favourably. We certainly support the offer of interest-free loans to developing countries with special needs, and I am sure that the Government are well aware of the policy of our international competitors, especially the United States of America and Germany, of subsidising economic planning and feasibility studies by private firms, with a view to securing valuable export orders. To these developing countries the flow of private capital must be actively encouraged, as the United States and Germany are doing by investment guarantees, by additional tax concessions, by technical assistance facilities, and so on. Indeed, I observed during a recent extensive tour of Southern Asia what these countries were in fact doing.
At the same time, I was glad to read the assurances given by the Parliamentary Secretary in another place about the co-ordination of our efforts with other donor countries, particularly through the Development Assistance Committee in Paris. I also have read with interest the clause concerning the Asian Development Bank, and I note from statements—again I refer to those made in another place, but I think the noble Lords will confirm them—that this Bank and the Colombo Plan, which has somewhat similar membership, will in fact be complementary in their activities.
I also welcome the clause concerning the Indus Basin Development Fund Agreement, which has been described as perhaps the one bright spot in Indo-Pakistani relations since Independence, and I am glad to see that expenditure on this project in 1966–67 will be about £3 million. I think we all also welcome the introduction of the Overseas Service Pensions Scheme. However, we on this side of the House shall certainly watch the operation of this Bill, when it becomes law, with great care and interest; and although, as I have implied, the Government have perhaps shown little willingness to implement their earlier pledges, and have been doing a certain amount
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of back-pedalling, we hope that the Government's financial policies will enable them to use the Bill as we think it should be used.
Having said that, may I make one or two personal observations arising out of my recent journey? I know full well how much our aid is appreciated in these countries. For example, when I was visiting Dacca, in East Pakistan, the Ministry of Overseas Development announced the grant of some £20,000 worth of scientific instrumentation for their laboratories there. Curiously enough I was myself asked to announce this in the course of what I assure noble Lords opposite was a wholly non-Party lecture on Scientific Britain which I gave at the university there. At all events the aid was greatly welcomed, and it is greatly welcomed elsewhere. On the other hand, in one great Indian city which I visited I was told that while such equipment might be of great value, it often took so long to get it out there that by the time it came—perhaps as much as a year or more after the application had been made—it was sometimes considered to be no longer exactly what was most urgently needed. Several of those most intimately concerned with these matters (and I told the noble Lord about this before our debate), British as well as nationals of the various developing countries, told me how extremely important it was that when such equipment was given it should be despatched with all speed.
This leads me to mention something else which disturbed me during this tour. It concerns the brain-drain—not so much from this country across the Atlantic as from the developing countries themselves. They are suffering from a serious exodus of qualified men—and some women, too—to Britain, to Canada, to the United States and even to Australia. If they have had a good training in this country or in their own country they are able only too easily to take jobs in the Western World. Yet in fact they are needed much more in their own countries.
In one of the new universities in Southern Asia, a beautifully planned university with a magnificent campus and an agreeable climate, the head of the large engineering faculty told me how depressed he was by the fact that the seven best

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men on his teaching staff of about twenty had all been offered jobs in the West and were proposing to take them up. The firms wishing to employ them were perfectly willing to pay the premiums required by their home Government if these men did not remain to work in their own country. This sort of thing is going on all over that part of the world, and with our own brain drain of doctors to America it is ironical how much we need those Pakistani doctors here.
Again, in regard to industry—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, touched upon this in the previous debate but I have observed it myself—the university which I have already mentioned, unlike the modern American universities or universities here, was out in the country and there was no industry around the campus or even in the capital some sixty miles away, so there are few jobs for them to go to in their own land. Then if a British firm trains qualified technicians here they so often want to continue to work in a country such as ours, in which they consider it to be more agreeable to live. Or if they do return to their own country there is a tendency for them no longer to want to soil their hands as technicians but to take clerical jobs, thus wasting their hard-won technical qualifications which have come through the aid we are discussing to-day.
I do not pretend to know what are the solutions to this intractable problem, nor how this brain-drain can be reversed. One small way in which we can help is to encourage more retired people with suitable qualifications in this country to go out and help the developing nations. A man is often very fit when he reaches retiring age here, and I saw what a tremendous job for example, Sir James Cameron was doing as professor of postgraduate medicine at the Dacca Medical College. I sincerely hope there are more like him. They are certainly needed in those countries. The unfortunate fact, therefore, is that, despite all our aid, some of the under-developed countries are actually slipping backwards and there is a terrifying lack of progress, particularly in regard to agriculture. In this way the gap between the developed and developing parts of the world may become considerably wider during the latter part of this century.
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All of us in the West must do all in our power to help these countries to cope with their problems, and in this I include, as I have said in this House before, assistance in family planning to control their population explosions. Their plight is disturbing—in some cases often tragic. I felt that much of our aid to these countries was negatived when their best-trained people emigrated to the West, even if it could be said that the world as a whole was the beneficiary. I do not know whether the noble Lord has any thoughts on these matters, but I think they get to the root of this problem. What is the use of our going on giving aid if they lose all the best people to apply it?
Many of the countries I visited seemed rather more interested in setting up large-scale capital equipment projects than going in for the development of smaller-scale industries and the application of what is now generally described as intermediate technology, a subject on which the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, made some very interesting observations in our last debate. I am glad to see he is to speak again this afternoon from this Box.
I should like, before concluding, to pay my own small tribute to the work of the representatives of our Overseas Development Ministry. I think there are now some 173 of them around the world. All those I met are to be congratulated on doing first-class jobs in very difficult circumstances, and they deserve our full support.
The only point I would take up with the noble Lord, one on which I gather from what he said at the beginning of his speech he intends to put down an Amendment, concerns Clause 1(4) in the Bill and the reference there to
"the government of Aden and any government established for any part or parts of the Protectorate of South Arabia".
What I fail to understand—and I think this was not understood in another place—is why there is no reference to the Government of the Federation of South Arabia, which is undoubtedly the most important Government in that part of the world. According to my information, this has caused considerable offence to the Government of the Federation; and this, coupled with what I might describe as our breach of faith in regard to defence in that area, has certainly not improved our relations with the South

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Arabians. My own view is that the Government of the Federation should be specifically mentioned in subsection (4) of Clause 1. I shall look with care at the noble Lord's Amendment when he comes to put it down, and if it does not seem to me to fill the bill I may be obliged to put down an Amendment of my own. There is no doubt, on my information, that the Federal Government consider the present wording of this clause to be completely unsatisfactory. Otherwise, I hope the Bill will, within its limits, have a smooth passage in your Lordships' House.
3.15 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I welcome this Bill, subject to certain reservations and some comments. The first reservation I have is one that I have often put to your Lordships in the years gone by; and that is that if trade were fair, and if there were a continuing market for the products, raw materials, of these countries—what are now called the developing countries—there would not be so much need for aid. In a way this Bill is a confession of partial failure. I do not blame Her Majesty's Government particularly for this; they are not so much to blame as many other countries. But in fact if we, the richer countries, gave the poorer countries a square deal, this Bill, and aid generally, would not be so much needed. I want to make that point quite clear; and I think it important that we should realise that. The developing countries realise it only too well. They do not like being put in the position of going round with the begging bowl.
The need is enormous. Two-thirds of the population of the world are still below the poverty level. The United Nations Development Decade is half-way through, five years. It started off with a great flourish of trumpets. Unhappily, the actual amount of development now taking place in those under-developed territories—the rate of development, the rate of increase of productivity—is actually less than it was before the Development Decade started. In twenty years the International Bank, with its affiliates, the International Development Association and the International Finance Corporation, have lent 11,000 million dollars for development. As the Chairman of the International Bank said not long ago, in
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many cases projects were like extinct volcanos scattered around the world, because there had not been enough money and expertise to keep them going.
A project is started, but it is not always possible to keep it going. In some cases projects have been started with financial loans to the countries, their manufacturers, their industries, for setting up steel mills, and so on, in the heart of Africa, without any raw materialsto supply them. Or big factories for the supply of dried milk have been established in areas where there was not enough liquid milk to go round for the inhabitants of the area. And there are other examples of that kind of thing. The International Bank (it has an excellent Chairman) has learned by experience the folly of that sort of thing, and now concentrates to a large extent on assistance to agricultural projects. That is what is needed in most of these countries: either to make something grow that has not grown before, or to make something grow better than it did before; or to stimulate an industry which can develop the agricultural potential of the country.
I mentioned only last week the magnificent work the Commonwealth Development Corporation have done in Bechuanaland, where they have really saved the economic position in the last few years with the abattoir and canning factory at Lobatsi. That is the sort of thing needed in many places, to take the potential and develop it. It is no good starting on a Western project that has no relationship to the needs of the country to be helped and is of no benefit except to the manufacturer who supplies the materials. And there is no question that, unhappily, there are going around at this moment quite a number of manufacturers, particularly from Western Germany, who are lending money to these countries to establish, to their long-term detriment, factories and machines which they do not need. I also question whether in all cases much of this aid is going to the right people. We know that in the past, unhappily, a lot of aid money has gone not to the people who needed it, the poor peasants, small farmers and poverty-stricken people in the towns, but, in many cases to a lot of crooks, either crooked politicians or crooked contractors.

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Finally, on this point, there is the instability of the countries. Most of the countries to-day, unhappily, are governed by military dictatorship of one kind or another. Some years ago a professor of Keele University wrote an interesting book called The Man on Horseback, in which he forecast what would happen—and unfortunately he was right. In most cases we have these military dictatorships. They are unstable. One must realise that. After them, what will come? We do not know. It is a point to be remembered when aid is thought of.
Coming to the various points in the Bill, first of all there is the Asian Development Bank. On May 26 I asked a Question on this subject.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves the point about the forms of Government, may I put a question? He made the suggestion that the form of Government of the receiving countries should influence the extent of the aid. Is that the point he is trying to make?
LORD OGMORE: No. I do not think it should influence it. But it must be borne in mind that we have unstable societies and unstable Governments in many of these countries; and that must be remembered when dealing with the mechanics of the aid. In other words, one must ensure that there is some chance that the aid, or the money which is given as aid, will continue to be used for the benefit of the country, even though the Government falls, as it may well do.
Coming back to the Asian Development Bank, my Question was, in effect: is this Bank a white elephant? Our contribution to the new Bank is £10 million. I asked the Government whether this money was going to be justified in these days. What was this Bank likely to do that existing organisations could not do? We have the International Bank and its affiliates. It is now an extremely good organisation. The International Bank took many years to become a good organisation. It had to go through a teething period. Is this new Bank going to do the same? Will its funds be administered wastefully? Will big wages and profits go to international civil servants? Will the money get into hands of crooks instead of those of the people?
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It is going to be costly for us, because not only are we going to provide £10 million—and, after all, we have not got all that money to throw around the world—but also we have to make up the exchange rate. If for any reason our exchange rate here falls during the period when this loan, or this share, rather, has to be provided, we have to make good that exchange. So it may cost as far more than £10 million. Therefore, I think this information is something we are entitled to know.
I should like to ask one question about the Indus Basin Development Fund. I fully agree with the objects of this Fund, which is, in effect, to deal with the Pakistan and Indian waters. Pakistan has lately had a most serious problem with salinity in much of her territory. I should like to ask whether the Government propose that some of this money shall go towards dealing with that problem. I think Mr. Arthur Gaitskell made a report on this. He is a great expert on that part of the world. It would be interesting to know what the Government propose to do.
As to the Commonwealth Development Corporation, the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, gave us an interesting talk on the financial contributions by private enterprise in conjunction with those of public enterprise. In my view, the Commonwealth Development Corporation (or C.D.C., as we know it) has been an outstanding success. Here again was an organisation which had its teething troubles after it started off, through no fault of anyone—it was a new venture in a new field—but it has pulled through and it is now a remarkable organisation. It is something of which all three major Parties can be proud, because we have all sustained it, and this House has always taken a considerable interest in it. Almost invariably the Chairman has been a Member of this House, as indeed is the case to-day because the noble Lord, Lord Howick of Glendale, is the present chairman—and a very good chairman, too.
The noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, carried out an inquiry on behalf of the late Government into the finance of the Corporation, because although the Corporation has done a magnificent job it has done it to a large extent in spite

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of its financial straitjacket and not because of the financial situation which was so eloquently described by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick. This is a case where, generally speaking, it is public finance, taxpayers' money, which has gone into it; and the picture is not quite so rosy as the noble Lord seemed to think.
The financial straitjacket operates in this way. If any of your Lordships were proposing to introduce a new plant into the heart of Africa in order to sustain agriculture, or into Asia, as in fact the Corporation has done time after time, you would not be likely to think that you were going to get the capital back for many years to come. Possibly you might not get it back at all. These are rather risky projects. The Corporation has no risk capital. Every penny that it borrows, either from the Government or from the City of London, at the ordinary market or Treasury rates, it has to repay. Therefore, the risk in the production of development schemes in agriculture, light industry and others, which is so useful to underdeveloped countries, has to be borne at the sole risk of the Corporation. Therefore, quite naturally, the Corporation has not gone in for nearly as many projects as it would like, because it cannot afford to do so.
This Government have met the Corporation to a slight extent, and I welcome this. With regard to projects of the kind to which I have been referring—namely, the productive and development schemes for agriculture, forestry, drainage and so on—they have said, "You need not pay any interest on the money you borrow for the first seven years" That is a help. Previously compound interest had to be paid on all these projects. Interest still has to be paid on projects which are not called productive development projects—that is to say, if it lends money to build a dam, it has to pay interest on that straight away. But where these development projects are concerned it is now excused interest for the first seven years. This, however, does not meet the real problem of the Corporation. I would ask the noble Lord to have this new Ministry look up the Sinclair Report and to go into it to see whether they cannot do a little better than they have done in this Bill.
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I am only sorry that I shall no longer be in a position to make what contribution I can to the work of the Corporation. One of the first acts of the new Minister, Mrs. Castle, when she came into office was to remove me in a peremptory and autocratic way from the Corporation's Board, so I can no longer assist it. But my heart is still in it, and I want to do everything I possibly can for the Corporation in the time to come.
I wish to raise only two further small points. I must declare my interest in the Overseas Service Pensioners' Scheme and Fund, which is also mentioned in the Bill. I am an honorary vice-president of the Overseas Service Pensioners Association. I do not, I may say, receive any pension; I do not come under this scheme in any way at all, but I am an honorary vice-president, as I think one or two other noble Lords are. Under the scheme, the present Overseas Service officers will benefit, but not former officers. It is the wish, a quite natural wish, of the Overseas Service Pensioners' Association that the former overseas pensioners should be put on the same basis as the present officers. They say, with a good deal of force, that they never served the overseas Governments at all; they served Her Majesty, or His Majesty, as the case may be, in the days of the Colonial Empire. These are successor Governments, and these people feel that Her Majesty's Government should take on the obligation which they naturally expected Her Majesty's Government to take on when they entered the service as cadets many years ago. These people have served with great ability in various parts of the world, where life was often rather. uncomfortable in the days before the advent of all these modern drugs which we possess to-day to make life in tropical climates a little easier.
My final comment is on Malaysia, a country in which I take a great interest and with which I have a long association. I was very sorry to read in the newspapers last week the comments made by my old friend, Mr. Tan Siew Sin, who is the Finance Minister in Malaysia, and the comments of Inche Senu, the Minister of Information. These two gentlemen believe that Her Majesty's Government are using aid as blackmail—they did not actually use those words, but

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that is what their comments amount to. They say that the possibility of aid is being used to force them to enter into defence arrangements which Her Majesty's Government wish them to enter into. I hope that they are operating under a misapprehension, because I personally feel that aid should have as few strings as possible, and certainly should never have defence strings. It is quite wrong to insist on defence arrangements as part of a bargain for aid and assistance.
Malaysia, as a whole, is a country to which we owe a great deal. If nothing else, it provides large amounts of dollar currency every year. Half the world's production of tin and rubber comes from Malaysia; we owe it a great deal, both economically and in other ways. I, for one, should be very sorry to feel that Her Majesty's Government were putting any pressure on Malaysia in order to force her to enter into a defence agreement which she might not want. With those few comments, my Lords, may I conclude by saying, as I did earlier, that basically I welcome the Bill, and wish it a speedy passage through the House.
3.33 p.m.
LORD CAMPBELL OF ESKAN: My Lords, this is the first time I have spoken in your Lordships' House since I made my maiden speech, and as that lasted, according to Hansard, 3½ minutes, I think I may be entitled to claim some indulgence for at least part of this speech; especially as I still have ringing in my ears the rebuke of the noble Baroness, Lady Asquith of Yarnbury, during the Television debate, to people who read their speeches, and the strictures of a noble Lord on people who stammer.
During the short time I have had the honour of being a Member of your Lordships' House I have heard discussion and debate on subjects of real human importance, such as sexual offences and abortion, and of much human fascination, such as censorship and libel. This afternoon, in debating the Second Reading of the Overseas Aid Bill, we are, by implication, discussing the plight and the poverty of about two-thirds of the human race. Believing, as I do, that this presents a great moral challenge, and indeed a threat to the peace and prosperity of the whole world, I am sure that the sub-
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ject is equally worthy of your Lordships' concern.
This Bill, as my noble friend the Minister said, does not claim to introduce any new measures. Its purpose, as I understand it, is to give a firm and comprehensive statutory base for the British aid programme. Broadly speaking, there can, I suppose, be three views about aid by richer countries for poorer countries, by developed countries to developing countries. There can be the view that it is a moral imperative. There can be the view that it is broadly desirable, but that Britain cannot at present afford it—or certainly cannot afford more aid. And there can be the extreme view that aid is positively mischievous. I shall not take up your Lordships' time with my thoughts about the last-mentioned opinion. On the other hand, I am tempted by my father's method of argument when he disagreed with his children, which was to say, firmly and conclusively: "Every man is entitled to his own opinion, but you are talking arrant nonsense". There is, however, a real problem about what Britain can or cannot at present afford to do—or not to do. What, in practice, do people mean when they say that Britain cannot afford aid, or cannot afford more aid? They mean simply that they put the priority for aid lower than other expenditures across the exchanges.
Let us look at this matter in perspective. Holidays abroad cost about £200 million a year in foreign exchange. Tobacco costs us about £83 million in foreign exchange. I have worked out a diverting, but far from insignificant, statistic about aid and rum. And here I must declare an interest. I am chairman of a company which, among other things, is a large producer of sugar and rum and has extensive trading interests in Guyana. (I must say that I have not yet found a clear distinction in pronunciation between Guyana and Guiana.) My right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development announced in April this year that Britain had offered to provide "some £3 million" in the British financial year 1966–67 for Guyana. But in 1965 the duty collected by the British Exchequer on Guyana rum—more popularly known as Demerara rum—was £11 million. It is all very well to say that these two figures are not comparable—£3 million of aid to Guyana and £11 million collected from British

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customers who buy an important export from Guyana. But in the case of Puerto Rican rum in the United States, the United States Government return to Puerto Rica the whole of the excise duty they collect. We return none of the duty we collect on rum from Guyana or Jamaica.
To turn to a more sober subject, defence. Defence—and of course proper measures of defence are essential—costs at least £300 million across the exchanges. But I believe that the collapse of the economies and societies and political systems of less-developed countries would be a threat to world peace which would add enormously to the defence expenditure of the comparatively richer and more developed countries. In short, I believe that enlightened and imaginative aid can very often be a much better alternative to defence expenditure. It is better to keep peace with the plough than with the sword. Not to mention the fact that the staggering wastefulness involved in arms expenditure overshadows any waste there may be in aid.
British aid in total amounts to about £200 million a year, but I have seen it shown that only about a third of this is a burden on the balance of payments. My noble friend the Minister said one-half, but, with respect, I am going to assume that it may be less, and I have seen evidence of this. And even this loss is largely, or completely, offset by the expenditure on British exports of a part of other donors' large aid programmes. So the more the level of international aid as whole rises, the more Britain is likely to gain through exports. Our exports suffer from poverty, instability and disruption in overseas countries, and our exports gain from the stimulation of their economies.
So to sum up this part of my argument, British aid is at present costing, say, £60 or £75 million a year in foreign exchange, compared with holidays abroad of £200 million, tobacco over £83 million, and defence upwards of £300 million. Therefore, while we are entitled to say that we must, in proper measure, defend ourselves; while we may say that we prefer holidays and smoking to helping to develop Africa, Asia, the Caribbean and Latin America; while we may
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say we cannot afford all these things at the same time, what we cannot say is simply that we cannot afford more aid.
It would be stupid and impertinent to suggest that Britain must, or can, try to bear the whole world's development programme on our Atlas shoulders. But it surely should be our objective to try to influence the richer countries as a group, to deploy an adequate part of their growing resources and skills towards stimulating economic development in poorer countries. I should like to see Britain taking the lead in building an alliance for development aid. This, surely, is a leading role which we could still play successfully.
To revert to what we can and cannot afford, even in the richer countries as a whole one thing we certainly cannot afford is inefficient aid. The most inefficient aid of all is that which is insufficient to ensure any progress, and such aid—there is far too much of it in this form—is really being poured away, usually into the flood of population growth.
I hope that this Bill, above all, will prove to be a further important step in the process of turning the British aid programme into an effective development programme, instead of a haphazard series of indiscriminate charitable or political contributions, which tended to be the state of affairs before the Ministry of Overseas Development was established. I certainly welcome the extra help provided in this Bill for the Commonwealth Development Corporation, and I am glad to see that there is provision for interest-free loans. I say that because this seems to recognise the fact that aid is not a strictly commercial concept, but rather a transfer of resources within the world community, like that effected by taxation and regional grants to development areas within the community of the United Kingdom. In fact, there is urgent need to examine the whole problem of development debts which have been building up over the last ten or fifteen years and now look like slowing down the very development for which the loans were originally made.
I am sure that the danger and the tragedy of there being two worlds is even greater than the danger of Disraeli's two

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nations; and that the benefits to mankind as a whole of reducing the gap between rich and poor countries will be even greater than the benefits which have come to the British people from reducing the gaps between rich and poor in these islands—a process which has culminated in, but not been completed by, the Welfare State. We must never forget that the primary objective of aid, as the Overseas Development Ministry's White Paper said, is the development of poor countries, not the promotion of British trade as such. Certainly, as I was pleased to hear my noble friend the Minister say, trade and investment and aid are complementary to each other. Each in its own way generates development, but they are quite different things, as he said.
In passing, I must say that I am sureit is to the mutual advantage of Britain and developing countries that we should, in tax measures and otherwise, do everything possible to encourage rather than discourage British investment in specified overseas development areas. The present corporation tax arrangements, of course, positively and generally discourage it. I was glad to see that in the communiqué issued after the recent Commonwealth Trade Ministers' meetings emphatic attention was paid to the importance of commodity agreements and to securing better access and more stable prices for primary commodities (the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, referred to this), and, further, that it was agreed that every effort should be made by Commonwealth countries to ensure practical progress in the field of financial measures to compensate developing countries for unforeseen falls in their export earnings.
The Ministry of Overseas Development's White Paper also said that the objective of aid is not to buy friendship, nor for that matter to buy off hostility. So aid should be administered by people skilled in development, not by diplomats skilled—or too often semi-skilled or unskilled—in relationships with the new nations. Aid can never be, on the one hand, well-managed and effective and, on the other, politically acceptable and appropriately used, unless the men and women representing the donor countries are able to see the problems of the recipient countries through their eyes and in their idiom. This requires real vision,
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imagination and psychological understanding and humanity, because the problems of poverty and the means of solving them involve a great deal more than economics and good management alone.
I would argue—and I think that nowadays this may be an heretical view—that we need to move towards greater involvement with the countries we aid; not greater detachment, with the only link a cheque for blank million pounds to be spent or wasted as the recipient country sees fit. I think the process of disinvolvement, whichseemed to be the logic of decolonisation, needs to be replaced by new forms of partnership. It seems to be a tragedy that the process of decolonisation has been as fragmentary as the process of colonisation, thus making the benefits of regional development and regional partnerships so hard to bring about.
In the last result, perhaps the people who say that aid does no good could prove right, because aid does not automatically help development unless it is accompanied by technical assistance in spending it in the right way and for the right purposes, unless there is enough aid to achieve agreed objectives, unless there is proper co-ordination between the requirements of the recipient and the resources of the provider, and unless there is a relationship of mutual respect and understanding between them. It may be more blessed to give than to receive, but it is even more blessed, and much more constructive, for men and nations to strive together in partnership to develop the resources of nature for peace, progress and prosperity. And not only that. We are fighting a battle against starvation, which is why aid to agriculture—technical and financial aid—is so vital.
I want to finish where I started: Can Britain afford it? Aid is, in essence, a partial substitute for savings. Can one really expect massive savings from countries such as India or Tanzania, with an income per head of £25 a year? Is it not more sensible to look for the savings out of the affluent societies with incomes per head of £400 a year upwards—societies such as ours? We in Britain may be broke, but we are not poor. But we shall be the poorer, economically and morally, if we try in any way to contract out of playing an active part in the

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development field. For this reason I support this Bill, so long as it is regarded as a firm foundation for a new creative edifice of British aid, and not as in any way defining or confining the range and direction of the British aid effort.
3.48 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, after all the speeches on this Bill which I have heard this afternoon I am particularly grateful to the last speaker. I am glad that the noble Lord did not confine his second speech to three and a half minutes; and in his animated and—in more senses than one—spirited speech, he has brought the issue to a point to which I feel bound to address myself from this Bench. However, my comments will proceed from a more waterish liquid than the one to which he referred at an earlier stage.
It is true that we are dealing with a Bill which is, in fact, a piece of machinery, but it is a piece of machinery to arm and equip a new Ministry which itself is a very significant departure. It is interesting that yesterday afternoon we were debating issues of social security, and the assumption there, unquestioned by all, is that within the national community there is a mutual obligation to one another in which those who have needs of a serious human nature have a right to ask help of their fellows. This obligation is now written into the whole Constitution of our country; and in the existence of a Ministry of Overseas Development we are, in fact, acknowledging that in some degree this same principle is being written larger into what is now becoming the world community: the principle that there are not merely charitable needs but obligations of one nation towards another which we cannot, without dishonour, ignore. It is this aspect, especially, which the Churches hail with a great sense of relief.
It is our claim that over a very considerable period, through what is often not suspected of us at all, the general missionary giving of the Churches, we have in fact been invading the field of overseas aid, and are maintaining it, even under present pressure and at very great cost. It is overseas aid. It is not merely spiritual aid, but aid directed to education, to medical services and to agricultural development. In other words,
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it is a recognition that aid can never be divided, any more than human nature can be divided, between mind and body and spirit.
In the past few years the development of the voluntary agencies and the remarkable way in which they have gone on enlisting public support for the service of needs which lie well beyond any considerations of race or political alignment has itself been a heartening sign that this country is becoming aware a little of that of which the last speaker so forcibly reminded us, namely, this issue of priorities in the spending of our people here. It has been the experience of the Churches, through their own particular service of inter-Church aid, that this need has drawn us into a kind of co-operation, not only with one another but with our partners in other countries, in a service which, over the years, has mounted steadily, in spite of all expectation, to something like a million pounds a year.
My Lords, I mention this chiefly because out of that experience we have good cause to welcome the implications that lie behind this Bill. It is clear that there is a great deal of voluntary sympathy and support where the minds of people are engaged in the whole facts of the case. It is also clear, as one or two noble Lords have already reminded us, that this process of giving and receiving is an extremely delicate and complex one. The giver can so easily expect a gratitude which it is not in the nature of human beings to express, and the receiver can build up almost a resentment towards those upon whom he is dependent: and this does not necessarily produce the right relationship between them. It is a kind of personal relationship, an involvement, as the noble Lord who has just spoken has said, in which we have to engage ourselves to-day. But certainly the overall experience of the voluntary efforts that have been going on has been that, however high they pitch their target, what they can do is a mere drop in the bucket compared with the need and compared with what can be done, in a way which would be commensurate with the full need, only by nations under direct government leadership.
It is on this point, I think, that we should pick upon this Bill. Our eyes

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would be fixed not on the direct provisions of the Bill but, in fact, on the powers that are going to be given to the Minister under Clause 1 to provide this assistance. Our questions, as the noble Earl has already said, are: What is to be the volume of the power and the resources which, in the course of the next few years, are likely to be put at his disposal? What is the size of those resources? How do we measure them? On the one hand, we are aware of our own acute economic situation, which might give us full excuse for backing down upon our already-fixed targets. We are aware that there has been a steady increase over the years and into next year. And yet this lamentable fact, which seems to defeat all statistics, still confronts us—namely, that as the level of resources and aid grows, so the value seems to diminish. We are in the world of Alice: it takes all the running you can do to remain where you are. This is the situation. Therefore, statistics by themselves do not necessarily comfort us.
The President of the World Bank, I think it was, has said that in the course of the next five years the developing countries could absorb upwards of £ 1,000 million extra per year over and above what is already undertaken or promised. That would mean a very large advance upon even the £ 200 million that has been suggested for us. What would disappoint us is not so much that we should not necessarily reach the kind of target we should like, as that we should not commit ourselves a little more boldly to a figure which is perhaps a little beyond our grasp now. I share the noble Earl's disappointment—indeed, it is widely shared in the country—that some graduated advance has not been built into the calculations of the National Plan. What we should be saying in that respect would be that, if we had an advance in prosperity in this country, then we should wish that prosperity of ours to be deliberately shared with other countries who have not got it. That, in itself, I submit, would be some kind of additional incentive. If we are requiring a national effort at the moment, let us throw into that demand for a national effort something that would be dependent upon it—that is, the increased assistance that we should then be empowered to give where it is so obviously needed.
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Now it is clear that at this particular moment any Government of this country would be embarrassed by demands that would promise in advance resources which we have not yet got. Perhaps, as has already been suggested, it is not a question only of what resources we can see: it is partly a question of to what extent the Government could count upon the strong support of public opinion for any plans they might make. The British Council of Churches met recently to consider a very carefully-studied report upon British responsibility in the world situation, and its immediate reaction to that, as the facts became more and more clear, was that it should be the duty of the Christian Churches here to bring home more constantly to their own people this great fact of modern life. But Christian opinion is very limited in its scope. No such appeal to people, to engage themselves more closely in this, would amount to very much unless it was on a national scale, and it could not be on a national scale unless, behind any such campaign that might be evolved, it was quite clear that there was the sponsorship and the guarantee of a settled and forward-looking Government policy that would justify it.
No doubt the reactions of the country as a whole to any demand for increased overseas aid would be very mixed. There would be, I submit, a far greater response of sympathy than is apparent at present. The facts are so little known by the general public, and experience has shown that things happen when the facts are known. But sympathy is a very fitful 'quality. We are in a situation to-day in which nations are so much more closely implicated in one another's lives that the basis of this obligation is not of sympathy or of charity but very much more of common justice. We are a people sensitive to the call of justice.
It may seem a little inconsistent that there is such a hatred of racial injustice to-day and of any form of discrimination and such a passion to put it right, especially among the young people; it is inconsistent if, side by side with that, there is not also a desire for the real freedom of those peoples in terms of opportunity to share in what modern advance has made possible for us. I believe we have not yet put this on a basis of obligation; but admittedly we

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are all subject to self-interest also, and self-interest has its own proper place in this field of overseas aid: I do not mean so much in the gratitude that we should engender; I mean more in the fact that we are concerned with the stability of our world, and in the future the relations of this country with other countries are more likely to be decided by economic policies than by, say, military policies. This should urge us to look to our own economic relationships with them.
The building up of public support in what lies behind this Ministry will itself be a long process; but for this reason one of the most important parts of the Bill seems to me to be the clause which empowers the Minister to go in for research, to study the complexities of the situation and its relationship to both the givers and the receivers. If this nation is to respond to the need, then I think it must be satisfied over a number of issues. It must be assured that aid is efficient. The kind of stories that circulate about aid getting into the wrong hands or devoted to the wrong purposes are rather like the old gibe of coals in the bath, and may do untold harm unless they can be proved to be unfounded or eradicated. People want to know where aid can be going and where it can be best used and in the right terms. They would like to know that it is flexible enough to meet a particular situation.
It comes as rather a shock to meto read that in 1965 Malawi received more than 60 times as much aid per head as India; and that Aden and the Federation received 125 times per head as much. If that is true, it is certainly an argument for greater flexibility in our programme. Above all, people want to be assured that someone, some Ministry or some Minister, is watching the connection between aid and our own economic situation; that, for instance, there will readjustment to our economy, planned where necessary, in the event of overseas aid affecting it. It is obviously not fair for us to make a call for sacrifices which other sections of the community will have to bear unless we can be satisfied that there are to be means by which their own losses can be made up. But, surely a material aid to those who would like to build up full public support for the aid already planned
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and in future to be planned, will be a Ministry, given authority and committed to study the complexities of this situation. I hope that this Bill will encourage the country as a whole to make a worthy response to the need.
4.4 p.m.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, I welcome this Bill, and I should like to thank my noble friend the Minister for his lucid explanation of its purposes. I would also commend the Title of the Bill to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore: it is the Overseas Aid Bill, and I thoroughly disagree with him when he says that if we had more trade we should need less aid. There can be no progress towards more trade unless we give, and continue to give, more aid in the future to developing countries. In this respect, I would wholly endorse the speech of my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan, and also that of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester.
I hope that I shall not repeat too many of the arguments that have been advanced. I believe that school children should from the earliest years become familiar with a new kind of geographical map: one clearly depicting the hungry nations and the rich nations. Thus, we should all grow up with a knowledge of the predominance of poverty over affluence in this wonderful age of scientific development. Today, as the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, pointed out, we know that, while the highly developed industrial nations are steadily getting richer, the developing and under-developed nations are not improving their standard of living at the same rate; and that the gap between the richer and the poorer nations is widening.
There is a kind of magnetic field around all affluent societies which draws skilled and educated persons away from the less affluent countries and from the developing countries, so that this again widens the gap still further. I do not know the answer to this problem. Perhaps as we all advance there will be eventually a kind of "general post" of skilled persons, and there will then be no harm in getting them from the developing nations. The greatest drain on the amount of aid given to the developing countries to help them to raise their standard of living is due to the very familiar "population explosion",

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whereby any increase in productivity is swallowed by the extra mouths that have to be fed. This rapid growth in population seems to me still to dominate all the other problems facing the developing countries. I believe very firmly that more could be done, and I hope that this Bill will make it possible eventually for very much more to be done, at relatively very little cost, for countries which desire family planning.
To-day, our policies in the new Ministry of Overseas Development hinge both on our balance-of-payments position and on our economic difficulties generally. I am told—and it has been pointed out already: I think by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan—that an increase in aid would not greatly affect our balance of payments. Despite our difficulties at home and those outside our control, we have managed not only to maintain but to increase our overseas aid from £191 million in 1964 to £194 million in 1965. This is not exactly a sensational increase; but what the new Ministry has done and is going to do is to give much more thought, and do more research, into the best methods of planning and using resources available.
One could say that the new Ministry was dealt a poor economic hand of cards, but is playing it with exceptional skill. It has been able to set the target for 1966–67 at £225 million. It was responsible for the introduction and extension of interest-free loans to certain developing countries, and is exercising greater control over the management of aid—a step that will eliminate much waste. It is undertaking a review of its recruitment policy for skilled manpower and improving its advertising. All the same, the number of persons recruited—900 in 1961, which rose to 2,000 in 1964—is still very small compared with France. France, incidentally, as we all know, gives twice as much aid as we do to developing countries, and there are thousands of Frenchmen living abroad in developing countries. I believe that it should be the most natural thing in the world for a professional career to include a period overseas in a developing country, a kind of international national service; and that this service should be done without prejudice to the home career or pension rights of the individual. I hope that this
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new Bill will make this kind of thing possible, and more possible.
Perhaps one of the most important things undertaken by the Ministry is the establishment of a corps of specialists so essential to any aid project. It is said that there has been a decline in British private investment abroad, which has fallen from £90 million in 1960 to £60 million in 1962, and still further to-day. The reasons are partly practical and partly political. The Government's hand in cutting down overseas investment has not helped; nor have attacks on this country by the newly independent nations in respect of our past colonial administration, for they distract these nations from getting down to their own problems and deflect them from self-criticism. Government aid should be, as the Minister has said, both complementary and a stimulus to private investment, as the initiative for projects undertaken does not come now solely from the developing countries but is worked out in partnership and agreement with ourselves. Altogether, the new Ministry is working out and putting into effect a better planned and more coherent aid policy.
My Lords, in trying to get as much information as possible about our aid, I have discussed various aspects of it with people from the Ministry itself, as well as from that very lively organisation, the institute of Overseas Development, and I venture to give a few conclusions to which I have come. It seems that too little aid can be wasteful and ineffective (as again my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan has pointed out), and our present-day economic difficulties should not inhibit our commitments, since they will not become fully effective until 1967. As our resources for aid are still so limited, the countries which are in a better position to use it—for example, India and Pakistan—must be given priority. There seems a strong case for giving India more capital aid. I am told that those countries which rely more on agriculture need less capital. My Lords, we in the Labour Party have been brought up to believe that 1 per cent. of the gross national product should be devoted to overseas aid. We have come to believe that this is almost a pledge. So far, Government aid alone has not reached this target, but the International

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Bank has stated that the whole world should increase its investment by 50 per cent. above what has been provided in recent years far this aid to be really effective and used by developing countries
Finally, my Lords, our approach to the whole question of aid needs continual re-thinking. We equate aid with charity; but charity is for those who cannot help themselves, and aid is for people to enable them to help themselves to increase their standard of living. The Government are making great efforts, but these are confined by the stranglehold phrase, "within the limits of our resources." It is as if there were no choice for us in the dispensing of our resources. The sum of £ 100 million for overseas aid would make a tremendous difference to the effectiveness of our aid generally. My Lords, not only is there tragedy in a world where so many people are still hungry; in such a world there are great dangers. I welcome this Bill, and I hope that it will be a springboard from which to give more and more effective aid overseas.
4.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, as the result of this very thorough debate I have been able to reduce my large sheaf of notes to four words. The first of them is "publicity". I do not think the public realises sufficiently what this country is doing in the matter of overseas aid. I suggest that the Minister should consider this aspect of the subject, for it is a record of which we have some right to be proud. It would, I believe, be appropriate if we had an annual White Paper, something on the lines of the Defence White Paper, and an annual debate on the lines of the Defence debate. I would also plead for the issue by the Minister of a more popular White Paper on the subject of overseas aid, illustrated by photographs, diagrams and so on, which could be used in schools and perhaps attract more young people to voluntary service overseas. We shall in time, I hope, become a member of Europe, and we shall then be able to co-ordinate our aid with that which is given by France and Germany, which will be to the great advantage of the developing countries. I was glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, made an
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allusion to the very substantial aid given by France, a fact which should finally give the lie to phrases about a "rich men's club", sometimes used to decry our entry into the European Community.
My next note is to the effect that we should regard overseas aid as a very long-term policy for the advantage of the whole world, including ourselves. I believe it to be a profound mistake to think about it primarily as a matter of charity. It is the long-term interest of the donors as well as the recipients that matters. My grandchildren will be growing up, in twenty or thirty years' time, in a world which contains three opulent continents—North America, Europe and Australia. I am quite sure that I am right in speaking of continents rather than of nations, for I believe that that is how my grandchildren will think. And it will contain three indigent continents—South America, Africa and Asia. That is a profoundly dangerous situation for the world. It is a world of communications, and for the first time the indigent peoples of the world have the opulence of the others flouted in their faces. Very soon they will be able to see, on almost world-wide television coverage, what they can already see on cinemas and hear about on the radio, the prosperity of a prosperous people.
This aid programme is intended to reduce—we cannot do more than hope to reduce somewhat—a terrible gap between the poverty of the poor and the riches of the rich in the world. It is unavoidable, as time goes on and these conditions become both better known and no less acute, that passions of envy and hatred and suspicion should arise. That may well lead to a conflict that will put an end to all the continents, rich and poor alike. Therefore it is in our long-term interest to pursue this matter with vigour. I hope that other nations beside ourselves—France, Germany and the United States—will see the matter in that light and aid us in a noble endeavour.
There is only one short-term advantage for this country which I think is worth mentioning. The young people who come back from their year of voluntary service overseas return with more experience and better developed personalities. I am glad to see that there is to be an adjustment in the matter of pensions in this Bill, which I believe will encourage people

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not only to go out for a year of voluntary service, but also to return when their services are further called for. That is an admirable feature of the Bill and one which I wholly commend. I have a right to speak in this matter, because forty years ago I was doing a year of voluntary service in India. I am not drawing any pension for it, but it is not a matter which I in the least regret.
Finally, to echo the pleas which other speakers have made, I would say that we should not take any short-term advantage from these gifts, and we should not be suspected of doing so. Some confusion sometimes arises from the fact that most overseas aid is spent, very naturally, in the Commonwealth. That is not the whole truth. We have given considerable loans for the development of South America. Perhaps the Minister, in his reply, will be able to tell us a little more about this. It is an important matter, because there is always a temptation to regard it as a purely Commonwealth affair and that therefore it might conceivably be influenced by the strain and difficulties which the Commonwealth is at present undergoing. It is not a short-term matter. The strains and troubles which beset the Commonwealth should not in the least affect the matter. Its long-term importance is a matter for the world rather than for the Commonwealth.
4.23 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, we welcome this Bill, but in rising to do this I would at the same time register a certain disappointment and some doubts, pose a few queries and, finally, make a suggestion. I hope that this will not take more than about ten minutes. Anything that enables the Minister of Overseas Development to discharge his duties for us more effectively can be assured of full support from every quarter of this House, despite a few patches of disenchantment here and there, from a growing number of people in this country. The particular powers asked for are each separately to be welcomed, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, himself has said, perhaps they should be reserved for further discussion when we come to the Committee stage. But, as I have said, our welcome is tempered by some disappointment and some doubts.
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I know that this is only an enabling Bill, but the Ministry of Overseas Development do not often bring their affairs before Parliament, and when they do we want to hear, and look forward to giving a full hearing to, everything they have to say. I was glad to hear this afternoon from the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, of the range of work which the Ministry undertake and the progress that has been made so far. At the same time, we have to recognise that he did not quite catch that note of fire and zeal which appeared—and I think rightly—in the Labour Party Manifesto at the last Election. I say that it appeared rightly, because surely alongside the building of peace, the closing of the gap between the rich and the poor nations is now the most vital task facing mankind. The first disappointment is that in opening this debate the noble Lord did not make that point emphatically, thus setting us the only true background against which a debate on these matters ought to-day to take place.
The doubt, which has been mentioned already, is whether the Minister and the Ministry, which has been set up with such a fanfare—a welcome fanfare to those of us who think this field important—will have the backing from the Cabinet, and the resources from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to make full and effective use of the powers we are now being asked to confer upon them. As has already been said by my noble friend Lord Bessborough, the slice of cake for aid in the National Plan is certainly disappointing. It is no match for the ambitions in the Minister's own White Paper (Cmnd. 2736) of last August; and, what is much more to the point, it is no match for the needs of the developing countries that make the Third World.
There is disappointment, too, that there is still, in spite of what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has said, this sheltering, behind our balance-of-payments problem, as if it were an unavoidable fact of life.As he has so helpfully pointed out, there is plenty of aid we can give—and in this he is supported by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan—of which only a fraction is a net burden on our balance of payments. Aid of this sort could be increased now, even under present conditions. In any case, this balance-of-payments problem is one for the rich

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countries, which they must solve among themselves in order to be able to tackle this much more urgent problem of development with more effectiveness and in concert. Incidentally, while apparently we have not enough aid to spare for everyone who needs it, which may continue to be the case for many years, do not let us be ashamed of starting our distribution of it among our friends and among those whom we know from long acquaintance to be capable of making good use of it.
May I now come to some queries? Are we going to let these developing countries earn their own living in the world when we have helped to train them to do so? It is clearly and widely seen now, and more so since the last United Nations Conference of Trade and Aid two years ago, that the good effects of positive aid policies can be completely and quickly wiped out by negative trade policies. So it will have been a waste of all our time this afternoon, and a waste of our taxes, if measures complementary to those in this Bill are not taken in order to let developing countries earn their own living with their own products. Therefore, while welcoming this Bill, we would ask the noble Lord who is to reply to give us, if he can, some samples of what Her Majesty's Government have done, are doing and propose to do to match their trade policy to their aid policy.
For instance, are they prepared to dismantle the import restrictions on jute at the next review next year? Are they prepared to stand up to pressure from our own textile industry to keep on barriers to the import of low-cost cotton textiles after 1970? I have given the noble Lord notice of these questions, and I hope that he will be able to give fairly specific answers to them. And we will be further reassured by any other indications of the "positive and leading part" that the Government have said they will play at the next United Nations Conference of Trade and Aid next year.
Finally, I come to one suggestion. The Minister of Overseas Development, in the last sentence of his speech on the Second Reading of this Bill, in another place, referring to our capacity to help, said:
"It will depend on how far-sighted and generous we are prepared, as a nation, to be.
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—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 728, col. 1199; 17/5/66.]
That is a truth which has been emphasised several times this afternoon. This implies many more people understanding much more and caring much more about the nature, the urgency and the gravity of the whole of what is before us to-day.
As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester has already said, this means a major and sustained campaign of enlightenment—not only fund raising and tax collecting, but enlightenment. This, of course, has been begun and is being continued at different levels and in different ways, but mostly in a very small way. It is being done, and being done well. I think, for example, of the closely reasoned and well presented literature that is available to us all from the Overseas Development Institute. I think of the factual bulletins distributed regularly by OXFAM to their local collectors. I think of all the educational work done in schools during the Freedom from Hunger Campaign. I also think of that recent study, which the right reverend Prelate mentioned, called World Poverty and British Responsibility, which has been commended to us by the British Council of Churches. The concluding sentence of this study reads:
"Governments will only do what public opinion will support or demand."
Or, put more plainly, "There are only a few votes in development aid"—and some disenchantment.
My suggestion, therefore, which follows the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, is that the Ministry of Overseas Development themselves should take a far larger share than they are already taking in the cost and the effort of presenting to the public the needs of the development third world, and the opportunities for serving in it. The Minister and his Ministry should join with the various institutes, organisations and charities that are already doing this so imaginatively, but with such slender and precious financial resources, and in some cases appearing before the public as if they were in competition with one another, rather than as allies within a single enterprise. I am sure that if they were to do this it would be far easier for the politicians to lead us in choosing the right priorities between all

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the demands which are competing for our resources.
My Lords, I am quite certain we cannot go on as we are doing to-day. In spite of all our efforts, the rich nations are getting richer, and the poor nations are getting more numerous and staying as poor as ever. Every day we go on as we are makes the scandal greater, the problem harder, and the perils of dodging and neglecting it more awful to contemplate. For that reason, we welcome this Bill.
4.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, perhaps I might say a few words, having had some experience of farming in these areas. My noble friend Lord Bessborough mentioned the lament-able fact that agricultural production in the underdeveloped countries has shown a decline in the past few years; and he is quite right. One of the reasons for this has been that, owing to the political turmoil there has been in many of these countries, the European farmers, who have contributed greatly to their agricultural production, have not felt very secure and many of them have stopped farming in those countries.
I should also like to comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. I think it was an admirable speech, packed with common sense. The noble Lord mentioned the question of the type of Government in power in an under-developed country to which we give aid. I consider he is quite right in his assumption that one has to be careful about the type of regime in power, because we have had some unfortunate instances with regard to the giving of aid. The whole object of this aid is to help the poverty stricken peoples; it is not to line the pockets of the politicians of those countries. So often our aid has gone for that purpose. If you take a country like Ceylon, the former Government completely wrecked the agricultural economy of that country by their form of nationalisation.
I just want to emphasise that we are ourselves a great debtor nation, and we owe the world a lot of money. I am all for aid to the underdeveloped countries provided that it goes for the people—but we ought to make sure that that is
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where it goes. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, we must in future take more notice of the type of people in power in the country to which we are granting aid.
4.39 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I first of all thank all those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for what they have said and for the welcome that they have given to the Bill? Until the noble Viscount who has just spoken rose, I think it is true to say that we had the encouraging and, indeed, stimulating fact that, without exception, all who had taken part in the debate were asking for more money to be spent by this country on aid abroad. It is a remarkable fact, and it is one upon which we should reflect deeply.
I only say in regard to it that I recall quite clearly a statement being made some few weeks ago by the Chancellor of the Exchequer calling attention to the fact that, for the first time in many years, he had kept his expenditure closely within the limits that were set out at the beginning of the financial year. That statement was also welcomed without exception. I feel that we must accept the challenge which is presented to each one of us: that there is no point in arguing that we should spend more money in development aid unless we accept the challenge that it will mean to us. I would say to some noble Lords, and to the right reverend Prelate (who has now left the Chamber), that while it is fair to make that kind of speech in this House, there is an obligation upon them to make it at the hustings at Election time, to try to secure the co-operation of all the taxpayers who have to provide this money.
There are two noble Lords and one Baroness who took part in the debate to whom I should like to say a separate and special word. I do not think we can argue against what my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan said when he put it to us that this argument about not being able to afford aid is really an argument for getting our priorities right. I accept what he said in this matter, that, as in all Socialist policies, it is a question of priority. In the matter of getting our priorities right, I felt so strongly at the time my noble friend Lady Gaitskell was speaking that I wanted to say to

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her that no one more persuasively and courageously tried to teach the people of this country that they had an obligation to make a sacrifice on behalf of those abroad and overseas who were less well off, than did the late Hugh Gaitskell.
Having said that and, I hope, having said it fairly, I also accept that several noble Lords, including particularly the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, and the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, put forward constructive proposals as to how we should engage in the kind of educational campaign needed to get the people of this country to accept the obligation that is undoubtedly upon us and others of the more affluent countries. I was particularly impressed by the suggestion that we might have a new map coloured according to how the areas of the world were placed in this spectrum between poverty and affluence. It was a suggestion which, I hope, will be considered more closely.
There was also a proposal put forward that this new Ministry, the Ministry of Overseas Development, ought to present each year a report, a White Paper—or, as I understand the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, to say, a coloured White Paper—setting out in forceful and, I think he meant, a picturesque way, not only what is being done but what needs to be done, so that we can get the full and conscious co-operation of all the people of this country behind this Government, or a Government of any other political complexion which accepted the challenge that is presented to us by this gap between the poor and the richer countries of the world.
I will say only one more word about this subject, and that is to repeat something which I said in the debate in January of this year about the gap. If we continue as we are now continuing with aid—and when I say "we" I now mean the world—we shall find that those countries which now have a per capita income of 100 dollars a year will, by the end of the century, have an increase in per capita income of only 170 dollars, whereas those countries which now enjoy a per capita income of 3,000 dollars a year will have an increase, at the present rate of growth, of another 1,700 dollars a year. So, as we have all said, the gap is getting wider—and how tremendously
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wider I do not think any of us really fully understand.
I was asked some specific questions at the beginning of the debate, and I set out hopefully in an attempt to answer them all. I doubt whether it is now feasible, and if I do not answer all of the questions during the course of this debate I hope I may be allowed to write to the noble Lords who have taken part. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, mentioned the brain drain which is currently taking place from some of those countries which we are trying to help. I think he is absolutely right; there is this brain drain. Obviously, he had it called to his attention in a very forceful way in Pakistan. I recently came back from Guyana, and it was pointed out to me that, though we are sending trained people to help in that country, their own people when trained are remaining in this country or in other of the industrial countries of the Western World, partly because they can get a greater financial reward.
I am not certain what the answer is here. Of course, it cannot be done by any legislative action. It is not possible to compel these people to remain in their own countries and to give them the benefit of the skills that they have acquired here. The answer may come in a longer term when, of course, their own respective countries have developed economically and have greater rewards to offer. It may come as a result of some sort of realisation by the peoples concerned that they have a greater obligation to their own countries, rather than to the already affluent societies in the Western World.
There is no easy answer to this problem, but I think the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, did a service in pointing out to us that the problem is there. He spoke about the possibility of some of the retired specialists in this country being called for service in some of the underdeveloped areas, and I think this is something into which we shall have to look with sympathy and care. I was also asked by the noble Earl for some assurance about the change which it is proposed to make in the Bill so far as South Arabia is concerned. I am sorry that it was thought that offence was given to the present Ministers of the South

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Arabian Federation by the present wording. In reply to that I would adopt Standing Order 29 and say that as no offence is spoken, no ill should be taken. Certainly there is no offence or ill intended here. But it will be necessary to have an Amendment. The question of naming any part of the world would not have arisen had it not been for the fact that responsibility for South Arabia had been transferred at this moment from the Colonial Office to the Foreign Office. This meant, administratively, that they would not have been caught by the provisions of the Bill which applied to the Colonial Office. However, we accept the point, and I hope that we can all look at it with sympathy when I propose the Amendment.
The noble Earl also asked about the possibility of delivering equipment on time. I quite agree with him that if equipment is required, whether for developing countries or anywhere else, it should be delivered on time. I made some inquiries into this, as he was kind enough to give me prior notice, but I am afraid that I have not been able to identify the particular cases to which he referred. However, if he would let me have further details, I should be glad to look into the point.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said that he was sorry that he was not able to continue the work which he had been doing for the Commonwealth Development Corporation. I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the contribution which the noble Lord has made. It was a most valuable contribution, and I am sorry that, for reasons of which I am unaware, he is not still able to play his part there. The noble Lord went on to say something about the possibility of their work being more effective in particular spheres if they had at their disposal equity capital; if they were able to lend money for projects which did not mean an immediate return on capital lent. I am not sure that the answer there is in equity capital but, as we know, possibly they have been enabled to waive interest in the earlier years, on certain loans, and I hope this will go some way to enable them to finance the sort of work that he has in mind.
The noble Lord also made the point to which several other noble Lords referred, that if we were able to stimulate
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more trade there would be less necessity for aid. This is perfectly true, although of course I did say that it is not likely that we should be able to stimulate trade to the extent required unless an amount of aid on the infra-structure to the underdeveloped countriesis forthcoming, and it can only be forthcoming from national or governmental sources. Nevertheless, we accept that there is a special case, when individual countries are dependent on primary commodities, and when there is a fall in the price of those commodities, which means very often that they are selling more in quantity and getting less money in return. To some extent this situation will be covered by the new proposals to which I referred in my opening speech. In special cases it ought to be feasible for some international aid to be given to them in order to tide them over the particularly difficult situation caused by an unusually sharp fall in the price of commodities upon which they depend.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, also asked me about Malaysia and he suggested that we were using aid there for the purpose of influencing defence policy.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said about me, but I did not suggest that we were doing that. I only said this was the allegation made by two Ministers, and I hoped they were possibly under some misunderstanding.
LORD BESWICK: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I agree with him absolutely that, while there may be a case in the interests of both parties, of tying aid to certain economic objectives, it would be wrong to use aid for the purposes of influencing defence policy. As he knows, there is in that part of the world at the present time a very special and sensitive situation which has developed since Singapore separated from Malaysia, and it is conceivable that, being more sensitive at this time, they look upon our amount of aid with (shall I say?) a little more suspicion than is warranted. I should like to take the opportunity of saying that it is only the limitation upon our resources that prevents us from offering Malaysia additional development aid this year. Our economic aid and technical assistance together will in fact cost about £5 million, and this

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will be approximately the same the previous year.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, also asked me a question about the position of certain officers in relation to the overseas service pensions fund. He put the case, which also has been put very persuasively and fairly on other occasions, and I am only sorry that I cannot give him more encouragement that those officers who had already retired could be brought into a scheme which has been devised for serving officers.
I think I have dealt adequately with the point about the fair price for commodities. I should like just to say again to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan, that this was a point which had special consideration in the Commonwealth Trade Conference which ended only last week, and I think we got a formula there as an objective about prices which were fair both to the consumer and to the efficient producer, and I can give an assurance that all the opportunities which are available to us will be used in order to get a price policy which fits that formula which we there agreed.
I was asked some questions about the Indus Basin Development Fund. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked about the help that would be given on the salinity problem. It is a fact that in the Indus Projects they are faced with this problem, but that Indus Projects are separate from the Basin Fund to which I have referred. It is in fact a scheme which comes wholly within the Pakistan authorities' responsibility. They have called our attention to this problem which they are facing. We have recently studied a Report which was produced in April of this year, and the Ministry of Overseas Development are considering retaining a team of eight British technical experts to advise them on that particular problem.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester made some comment about (as he put it) the disproportionate aid we were giving to certain countries as compared with India. I think he had his proportions correct, but it is possible to look at them again with another eye and to arrive at the conclusion that we are giving too much to India and too little to some of these other countries. It is
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the fact, I believe, that a quarter of our total aid is going to India, and a third of our development aid. Also, so far as India is concerned, there are several countries which accept a responsibility, where as in the case of some of the African countries—and Aden too was mentioned—no other industrial countries accept any responsibility at all. They are dependent entirely upon us, and taking all these considerations into account I hope he will agree that the limit of the aid we have at our disposal is probably being fairly allocated. At any rate I can assure him that we are endeavouring to allocate it fairly.
Several noble Lords and the noble Baroness called attention to the population explosion. Here, again, there may be some difference of opinion as to the extent to which a nation which is out to help human life by its economic aid is entitled to take any steps which have the effect of limiting the number of human lives. But the British policy here, I would say, is that when asked by any of these developing countries for advice and assistance on this problem, it would be forthcoming.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, spoke, and I think my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan also spoke, of the falling level of private investment. I think I indicated in my opening remarks that we, as the Labour Government, certainly do not wish private investment to fall. So far as developing countries are concerned, the steps we have recently taken to restrict investment exclude them, and in other countries restrictions are only temporary because of our economic situation. Moreover, in the developing countries the fact is that aid recently has not fallen; it has increased. The figure in 1964 was £87 million, whereas in 1965 the figure had risen to £110 million.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked me about the Asian Development Bank and suggested there was some duplication here, that it might well be wasteful, and why did we want to spend our money in financing this Bank when there was already the International Bank. The answer to that is that this is a regional bank. There are other regional banks. These regional banks are able, I think, to bring to bear the kind of local knowledge and expertise to which the noble

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Lord, Lord Campbell of Eskan, referred. They are able to give special assistance. They are also able to encourage regional development schemes when these are required. I think that the Asian Development Bank will have a special and additional part to play in the overall problem.
I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, about the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to the encouragement of certain industries in these developing countries, and he made the point, as did others, that there really is no virtue in giving economic aid if we make it impossible for them to develop industrially. The fact is that we recognise the need for developing countries to institute some manufacturing industry, and we have encouraged it to the best of our ability by making it possible for them to send here duty free virtually all manufactures, excepting, of course, cotton textiles. Here we are up against a very difficult problem, which I hope the noble Lord will accept.
I had the opportunity last week of speaking to some of the delegates from Basutoland. They, too, were speaking about the need for diversification, for getting some manufactures going. They intended to start this policy in the near future. I asked what manufactures they had in mind and they mentioned, first, cotton textiles. I do not think really, in view of our own situation here and the fact that we have built up a very substantial export trade over the years in cotton goods, that it is easy for us to do more than we have already done. There has been, as the noble Lord will probably accept, some recognition of the need to allow an increasing amount of cotton textiles to come into this country, although in a regulated fashion; and, while we understand the pointhe is trying to make, I would have thought our record in this matter, bearing in mind our responsibility to our own industry in Lancashire, is a reasonable one.
The noble Lord asked particularly about jute manufactures, and here again our record is not wholly bad considering the situation in this country. As he probably knows, most of the jute industry in the United Kingdom is concentrated in Dundee; I understand one-fifth of the total working population in Dundee is dependent upon this in-
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dustry. It is difficult to subject it to wholly unregulated competition, but there has been an easement of the restrictions since September, 1964, and I can say that it is the intention to review this position again later this year.
I think in winding up I can do no better than quote the words of my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan in his excellent speech, for which there was absolutely no need to be apologetic. He said he hoped this Bill would provide a firm foundation for a new creative edifice. I accept that. I believe that is the intention of Her Majesty's Government. I accept what he said, and what I think was said by the right reverend Prelate, that we have in these matters to work towards a world community. The ideal and the obligations of a world community, despite Vietnam, despite Mississippi, despite the industrial strike in our ports, despite the struggle in Rhodesia, I think it is fair to say, has greater acceptance in this country than there ever was before.
Although we can say we ought to be giving more, when we think of the amount we were giving before the war, which was negligible, I think we can take a little satisfaction. Nevertheless, the need for further effort still remains, and I hope all those who put forward the plea for greater expenditure willcarry to the country among the electorate the sort of plea they put forward here this afternoon.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (CAMBRIDGE, READING ANDWALSALL) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (WEST KENT MAIN SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

EMERGENCY POWERS ACT 1920: ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN
5.7 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of The Queen's Message of Wednesday last.
HE LORD PRIVY SEAL)(THE EARL OF LONGFORD)HE LORD PRIVY SEAL)(THE EARL OF LONGFORD) rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty thanking Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Message communicating to this House Her Majesty's Declaration that a State of Emergency exists. The noble Earl said: My Lords, perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if this Motion were agreed to formally at once, and that the discussion should take place on the Motion to approve the Emergency (No. 2) Regulations 1966. I therefore beg to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty thanking Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Message communicating to this House Her Majesty's Declaration that a State of Emergency exists.—(The Earl of Longford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves

EMERGENCY POWERS ACT 1920
THE EARL OF LONGFORD THE EARL OF LONGFORD moved, That the Emergency (No. 2) Regulations 1966 made by Her Majesty in Council on June 22, 1966 under the Emergency Powers Act 1920, and laid before the House on that date, shall continue in force subject to the provisions of Section 2(4) of the said Act. The noble Earl said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Stonham, who will wind up the debate, I beg to move the second of the Motions standing on the Order Paper. This asks the House to confirm that the Regulations made in consequence of the declaration of the State of Emergency shall continue in force for another month.
My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been speaking on this subject this afternoon, and the House will, I think, expect me to keep very closely to his words. I shall somewhat abbre-
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viate his speech, but that does not mean that my speech will be in any way short. It is a grave and important subject. The House will be aware that recently there have been hopeful moves in the direction of a settlement, and this debate takes place against a background of negotiations which are going on at present and which we all hope will speedily reach a successful conclusion. I would, however, point out that even if agreement had been reached a day or two ago it would still have been necessary to commend these Regulations to the House. For the time being it may be necessary to keep the port emergency committees in being, with power to regulate shipping in ports. But the Government would hope, if the House agrees to the continuance of these Regulations, that an early ending of the strike would mean that the Proclamation could be revoked and that the Regulations could lapse at the earliest possible moment.
While all our thoughts and hopes will be concentrated on the negotiations now proceeding, it is not perhaps too early to begin to consider some of the lessons of this dispute. The seamen's industry has been virtually strike-free for many years. This particular strike has no single, simple cause: it is, in the first place, the result of the accumulation over many years of grievances and frustrations which we as a nation—and we must all share some of the responsibility—should not have allowed to develop. For many years a large part of the membership of this Union increasingly felt that the Union was not adequately discharging its responsibilities. In consequence, these grievances and frustrations were allowed to grow and fester, and to suppurate.
Another lesson from this dispute is a fact which emerges from the Report of the Court of Inquiry: that a great deal is amiss in the efficiency with which this industry is conducted. It is clear that the earnings of British seamen fall below those of many of their foreign counter-parts. With those factors in mind the Government, as the House is aware, have decided to set up, as a matter of urgency, an independent Inquiry into the structure, organisation and efficiency of the industry.
The third lesson must relate to the organisation of the Union and the problems presented in terms of industrial democracy. One of the problems in this

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dispute is a new-found militancy of the Union. In saying that I am not attacking militancy as such: I am only pointing to the situation which arises in this particular Union at the present time. No one will underrate the difficulties of democratic organisation, or an attempt at democratic organisation, in a Union catering for seamen. The difficulties of communication are of a different dimension from those experienced in any other trade union. The present Executive Council was elected (I am not saying this in any critical sense, but just to point to the difficulties of communication) by only 5,000 out of the 65,000 members. All these are points and difficulties to be borne in mind. But, superimposed on these difficulties, which can easily be expanded, there is a further problem, to which I must now turn.
I begin with what has never been challenged: that there are no Communists on the Executive Council of this Union, and that the number of Communists among the membership of the Union is extremely small. It is questionable whether, for example, the Communists would be able to man more than one or two picket lines. In addition, we must be extremely careful to distinguish between the external influences and the quite real feelings of tens of thousands of the Union members that they have had a raw deal for so many years in the past. We have to distinguish between the genuine grievances and the genuine expression of those grievances, on the one hand, and the deliberate exploitation of those grievances by outside influences, on the other.
Again, it would be wrong to suggest—and I know that the Prime Minister is stressing this point—that members of the Communist Party, and particularly dedicated Communist seamen, are not deeply concerned with these grievances and the problems that have to be settled. I should add that there was, and is, no question of impugning the integrity of the Executive Council. What the Prime Minister was referring to in his Statement in that connection eight days ago was their lack of guts.
But the House will be aware that, unlike the major political Parties, the Communist Party has at its disposal an efficient and disciplined industrial apparatus controlled from Communist
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Party headquarters. No major strike occurs anywhere in this country, in any sector of industry, in which that apparatus fails to concern itself. In special cases it has been seen at work—for example, in the Electrical Trades Union, where it made a successful takeover bid, if not of the share capital, at any rate of the management of that Union, lasting for some years. No other political Party is organised on these lines, and it may be because of the political, as opposed to the industrial, impotence of the Communist Party that it has sought expression in industrial organisation. Noble Lords would delude themselves if they imagined that there was not the most efficient organisation on the industrial side; if they did not realise that it has full-time officers ready to operate in any situation where industrial troubles are developing. And we should underrate equally its power if we did not recognise that, however misguided we may consider their objectives or their methods, they, in their own way, desire to see an improvement in working-class standards, and would not be effective if this were not so.
One other thing I want to make clear. None of this is in any way illegal. In a free society—it may be different in a Communist society—they have a legal right to do it. And there is no evidence at all that in pursuance of these aims, so far as the seamen's strike is concerned, they have committed any individual acts of illegality. Equally, I should make it clear that there is no suggestion of any interference in this strike from overseas. Whatever has been done is indigenous in character and is rooted in our own doctrines of freedom of association and action.
But if those who act in the way I am going to describe are within their legal rights—and I take it that, whatever recommendations the Royal Commission may make, none of us would wish to curtail the basic legal rights of freedom of speech and action in a democracy—if, I say, they are within their legal rights, equally those of us who regard their activities as harmful have our rights, including the right to take such action as we may think appropriate. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has thought a great deal about this in recent weeks, and his Statement eight days ago

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was, I can assure the House, not made without anxious consideration. Not only have some of us in the Government an equal right to take any action within our power to ensure that these activities are known and understood for what they are, but we—that is the Government—certainly have a duty to exercise that right.
For some years the Communist Party have had as one of their objectives the building up of a position of strength, not only in the Seamen's Union but in other unions concerned with docks and transport. They are engaged in this struggle for power in the Seamen's Union because they recognise the facts I have outlined to the House. The Communist Party recognise not only that democracy is shallow-rooted in this Union, but also that grievances and exploitations have festered for many years; and they recognise that the facts of seagoing employment make infiltration easier than in other industries. This bid is directed to next year's Conference, at which the rules can be changed and, equally, steps taken to change full-time officers, who for the reasons I have given, have an unusual degree of power to influence the conduct of the Union's activities, even if this power has not been much exercised of late.
This is a take-over bid, and take-over bidders on all sides of industry are notorious for their single-mindedness and ruthlessness. The whole formidable power of the industrial apparatus has for some time been directed towards this end, and the seamen's strike, with all its background of justification, has provided the ground. This has been known for some time. A seaman who had played a leading part in the localised strikes of 1960, and was a former Chairman of the National Seaman Reform Movement, made a long statement in the January, 1965, issue of the Seaman, in which he set out the way in which this take-over bid was being organised. And, having given details of what was being done on the North-East coast, and in the Mersey area, he summed up in this way—and now I quote:
"Thus the Communists are in a position to use the movement for their own purposes; and all British seamen know what this means. In particular, Gordon Norris and some well-
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known Communists on the North-East coasts are going around all ports to ensure that the Communist Party keeps a firm grip on the movement"
That is the end of that part of the quotation,. He then went on, in this very long statement, to advise his fellow members how to counter what he called this
"…very small group of active Communists who are working for their own interests and those of the Communist Party."
My Lords, that concludes the quotation.
The central figure in the operation is the Communist Party's industrial organiser, Mr. Bert Ramelson, who in January succeeded Mr. Peter Kerrigan. Mr. Ramelson has three full-time officials on his staff, and in the London area, where the docks provide his hunting ground, his principal lieutenant is Mr. Dennis Goodwin. Round this full-time nucleus has been gathered a small group of active trade unionists in the National Union of Seamen and other unions. I referred a moment ago to the Communist Party's numerical weakness in the membership of the National Union of Seamen. Yet, despite this, as soon as the strike began, they were successful in ensuring that the chairmanships of strike committees in the country's two major ports, London and Liverpool, were taken by two dedicated Communists, Mr. Jack Coward and Mr. Roger Woods. Again, in the Union's negotiating machinery a leading member of the negotiating committee, not himself a member of the Executive Council, who was elected from the floor of the Annual General Conference, was also a highly articulate and effective Communist, Mr. Gordon Norris, who in certain of his activities also operates under the name of Mr. George Goodman.
The objectives of the Communist Party throughout this dispute were, first, to influence the day-to-day policy of the Executive Council of the National Union of Seamen; secondly, to extend the area of the stoppage; and, thirdly, to use the strike not only to improve the conditions of the seamen, but also to secure what is at present the main political and industrial objective of the Communist Party—the destruction of the Government's prices and incomes policy.
Let me first deal with the organisation of the Union and of the strike. I have

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referred to the Communists' success in capturing two of the major strike committees. They are also effectively represented in other areas. When Mr. Norris, who has not paused in his activities during the last six weeks, visited Glasgow he made it his business to contact certain members of the strike committee, but he omitted to get in touch with the secretary, who happened to be an efficient and loyal member of the Seamen's Union. At various stages since the strike began, those I have mentioned have met and decided their policy, and have sought through whatever means were open to them, to influence the Executive Council. They started with a disadvantage, that there were no Communist members on that Council. What they had to do was to operate through any who were responsive to their suggestions, including a circle of members whose conception of the seamen's strike made them amenable to the type of proposals the Communist Party were advocating. I have already referred to the difficulties of industrial democracy in the election of the Council, and one must recognise the effects of the history of this Union in the inexperience of many of its members. This political and industrial inexperience of some of its members—which you would not find in most of our other unions—meant that a small number of men exercised an influence far beyond their numbers.
If I have to refer to Mr. Joseph Kenny and Mr. James Slater, neither of whom is a member of the Communist Party—may I repeat that: Mr. Joseph Kenny and Mr. James Slater, neither of whom is a member of the Communist Party—one must acknowledge their political and argumentative skill. The Prime Minister has had five meetings with the Executive Council, or with committees appointed by that Council, and he can testify to their ability, to their mastery of the details of seamen's complaints, to their ability to absorb skilled briefings, and to their dominance among their colleagues. They live in Liverpool and South Shields respectively, and over these past few weeks when they have attended Executive Council meetings in London they have stayed at the same flat as Mr. Jack Coward. During the strike Mr. Ramelson has visited this flat when Mr. Kenny and Mr. Slater were staving there, and Mr. Norris, of course, has also been in constant touch with them. They have, in fact,
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been in continuous contact with Mr. Ramelson and Mr. Norris. The Prime Minister has had enough first-hand experience to recognise that these two have dominated the Executive Council throughout the negotiations. Again, they were predominant in the Executive's brusque and unanimous rejection of the appeal which the Prime Minister made to the Executive a week last Friday.
The House may well ask how influences of this kind, even exercised through a small number of highly articulate and experienced members of the Executive, could have so long secured acceptance, unanimously and almost without rebuttal, from a Council of 48 members. But first let us recognise that the views which the militant members of the Council were expressing fell on fertile ground because all their colleagues were aware of the feelings of the seagoing community. Let none of us underrate the extent to which moderate members of the Executive Council, no less militant in their objectives than their militant colleagues, would be subject to pressures which many of us would find distasteful, and perhaps almost irresistible. The treatment which those who advocated a return to work have received on occasion in the last six weeks might have daunted the toughest of us.
A long article in The Guardian last Saturday indicated the pressures to which any moderate member might be subjected in his strike committee, in his home port, and (let us not underrate this) in the treatment he might receive when he returned to his ship. That article referred to the fact that at many of these meetings they will recognise
"men who are not in the N.U.S., but are members of other Unions …
It referred to the organised pattern which could be discerned, their aim being
"to keep the temperature of meetings running high; to inflame the legitimate grievances of seamen by intervening with abrasive slogans shouted at appropriate moments."
I would commend to noble Lords the evidence produced in that article, but I will not spell it out at greater length here. Time and again in this dispute the Communist Party's objectives havevery rapidly become the policy of the Executive. This is particularly true in relation to the determination of the Party to spread the strike. This was, it is true,

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the policy of the National Union of Seamen; it was not the policy of the T.U.C. or of any of the other unions affiliated to the T.U.C.
When the State of Emergency was declared, the Morning Star, with which is incorporated the Daily Worker, declared—and I quote:
"…no self-respecting trade unionist will work in co-operation with the Army and Navy"
and
"every trade unionist must rise in solidarity in support of the seamen."
That is the end of the quotation from the Morning Star. This was a clear invitation to extend the dispute, and obviously the most likely area of extension wasthe docks. This was, in fact, the policy pursued by Mr. Ramelson and his colleagues; it was not the policy of Mr. Hogarth who, though his presence at the dock meeting had been announced, knew that, in accordance with the usual rules with which the T.U.C.would be concerned, it would be utterly wrong for him to appeal to the members of another union except with the approval of the executive committee of that union.
The policy of extending the dispute was, however, conducted by Mr. Ramelson, Mr. Goodwin, anda number of other influential Communists whose influence extended to unions beyond the National Union of Seamen. The most prominent of these was Mr. Harry Watson, the President of the Lightermen's Union, and such well-known figures as Mr. Jack Dash and Mr. Danny Lyons, who are both members of the unofficial liaison committee in the London docks, together with Mr. Gordon Norris and Mr. Jack Coward, representing the seamen. I have referred to Mr. Dash, but I should say that he has taken a more moderate linebecause he was torn between his loyalty to the Party and his loyalty to his union, which was resisting all pressure to take the Communist line.
The House will have followed with interest the course of events in the week in which the Pearson Report came out. There is much to suggest that the rejection of the Interim Report was virtually a fait accompli before the Executive had even seen the text of the Report. Inaccurate accounts of what the Court of Inquiry was likely to recommend were
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circulating on the night of Tuesday, June 7, and were almost certainly known to some of those I have mentioned. On the Wednesday morning, the Executive received the text of the Report and rejected it with their customary unanimity, after the most perfunctory discussion. From then on, the emphasis was on widening the dispute.
On June 13 a meeting of about 1,500 workers, chaired by Mr. Jack Coward, was held in the London Docks and was addressed by Mr. Watson, Mr. Norris and Mr. Dash—the first two with great enthusiasm, and the third with lesser enthusiasm—commending a resolution to "black" all British ships in the London docks. But a fourth speaker, Mr. Munday, the official representative for the Transport and General Workers' Union, took the opposite line. In the event, the resolution was carried, and two hours of confusion in London Docks followed while the dockers sought advice from those able and competent to give that advice. And because of the resolute advice given by Mr. Munday, on behalf of the Transportand General Workers' Union, the dockers, despite that resolution, were by 12 o'clock hard at work on the ships. This was a turning point in the history of the strike. But another turning point was the rejection by the International Transport Federation, whose British representatives include all Britain's transport unions—the railway unions, the Transport and General Workers' Union, the Merchant Navy Officers' Association, as well as the N.U.S.—of the National Union of Seamen's request that they call on foreign seamen's unions to take corresponding action to prevent the movement to Britain of foreign-owned ships.
The last hope of those who sought to extend the strike, to extend the damage to Britain's economy, let alone to bring the nation and the Government to a state of surrender, was the meeting two days ago of the Management Committee of the International Transport Federation where, though an appeal for financial help was approved, moves to extend the strike were finally buried. Once June 13had passed, the emphasis shifted to the talks which the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour were holding with the unions and the employers. I believe that there came a point where there was

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a widespread recognition that the strike had reached a point of diminishing returns.
The purpose of Her Majesty's Government was to see whether there was a way to meet their concern about the question of leave arrangements—at no additional cost beyond what was contemplated by the Court of Inquiry, and at no additional cost in terms of a national incomes and prices policy. But political rather than industrial counsels won the day. The Government appeal to the Executive again met with the most brusque of rejections. This may have been connected with the intense and active canvassing of a substantial number of Council members on the night of Thursday, June 16. However that may be, that rejection was clear-cut and, as I have said, unanimous. Yet a large proportion of the Executive, almost certainly a majorityon the previous Friday, if they had voted according to their considered opinions would have voted for a return to work, or at least a return to negotiations on the basis of what the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour had said to them. One result, however, of what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said last Monday, is that the moderates have now become articulate, and in doing so they represent the majority of the rank-and-tile members of the union, particularly those who have—and I should pay tribute to them—suffered great hardships for the cause in which they believe.
I know that there will be those who say that it is not the duty of the Government, or of anyone who holds the responsibilities that the Prime Minister holds, to be concerned with such matters; that our duty is to remain aloof. But having regard to the great economic dangers to this nation, having regard to the determined battle we are fighting for economic solvency, I have no doubt myself—and I hope the House will have no doubt—that it was the Prime Minister's duty to take this action. I have no doubt, moreover, that his action has had a beneficial and crucial effect. This is not the moment to anticipate the findings of the Royal Commission, which will be concerned with legal and constitutional matters, and also with deep problems of human relations. But I would, in conclusion, say one final word which does not occur in the Prime Minister's speech.
He pays tribute, and I would join the Prime Minister in paying tribute, to the splendid work of the Minister of Labour in recent times and earlier, and we shall all wish him a speedy recovery from the ill-health which has temporarily overtaken him after all his exertions. But, in addition, I should like to record my strong personal conviction that the Prime Minister has rendered an immense service of permanent value to the nation, and particularly to our workpeople, by his candid and highly instructive words last week. It needed true courage to speak as he did, and as time passes it will become, I believe, ever more clear that we should all be wholeheartedly grateful to him. My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Emergency (No. 2) Regulations 1966 made by Her Majesty in Council on the 22nd June, 1966 under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, and laid before the House on that date, shall continue in force subject to the provisions of Section 2(4) of the said Act.—(The Earl of Longford.)
5.36 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, we are all obliged to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for what he said, and for the care and trouble which he has taken in repeating to your Lordships the substance of what the Prime Minister has said in another place. All of us, wherever we sit, are equally disappointed that the signs of an end to the strike are now less hopeful than they were at the week-end, but we still do not know what is going to happen when the seamen's Executive meets.
I do not wish to comment on the terms which have been offered, or the attitudes taken up by the parties concerned. We greatly regret the continuation of the strike. I do not believe that while negotiations are in progress there is anything to be gained from criticising the conduct of the negotiations by any of those involved. I shall therefore reserve anything I might have to say about that until after the strike is over. But there is one aspect upon which I do wish to make a comment. I feel very critical of the Government in not having brought home, either by their speeches or by their general attitude to this strike, the seriousness of the situation and the economic

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damage which will be caused to the nation. For example, it was very noticeable in the Prime Minister's statement on Monday, June 20, that until the very last half of the last sentence of his statement—which was a long one—there was no mention of the danger to the economic welfare of the country. And, indeed, if what the noble Earl has said this afternoon is a true guide to what the Prime Minister has said in another place this afternoon, there was only one sentence which referred to the consequences—and what I believe may be the disastrous consequences—of this strike.
I think the Government are particularly at fault in this sense. By the very nature of the strike itself, its effect has so far not been at all evident except in very rare cases, either by shortage of goods or by hardship to individuals. For instance, I do not think that the casual visitor to London would find a shortage of anything in the shops, nor would he find an awareness that a serious strike was going on and that it was in its sixth week. It is, of course, far too early to say what the economic consequences will be, but of one thing there is no doubt, and that is that they will be very grave indeed. To take but one example, we have been doing a good deal of trade promotion recently in Australia and New Zealand. All, or very nearly all, British goods shipped to Australia and New Zealand travel by British ship. No ship has left for many weeks. Our competitors will not be slow to take advantage of the interruption in the stream of British exports. There must be cases in many other parts of the world where non-delivery of British goods, as a result of the strike, has affected the future purchases of our exports.
The strike has now continued for so long that, even if it ended to-day, it would take in some cases up to twelve months to reposition the ships of the lines affected, and the effect of that will last a very long time. It may be true, too, that some British companies will find it difficult to recapture some of the trade that they have lost, and it may even be that some of them will not find it possible to carry on at all.
Taken together, all these things may have incalculable effects on our economy. Yet we have seen on television or heard
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in Parliament or elsewhere very little stress laid on this most serious aspect of the strike; and, if I may say so, my Lords, members of the Government so articulate in other respects have been strangely silent in this one. Public opinion can usually play a very large part in settling a serious strike. If the overwhelming majority of the people of this country were wholly and vocally against the strike, who knows what the effect would have been, and would be, on the seamen and their families? It is very difficult to stand up to the disapproval and hostility of those whom one meets in daily life. I think the Government have failed. They have failed to make the nation aware of the gravity of the situation—and, indeed, have perhaps failed to realise it themselves. In my view, they must take a share of the responsibility for the continuation of the strike.
As for the explanation given by the noble Earl of the Prime Minister's references last Monday to Communist influences and to how far members of the executive are their own masters in taking their decisions, I would wish to study very much more carefully what he has said, because he made a long Statement. A preliminary comment, however, is that I was a little uncertain of what he said about the executive not being able to take their own decisions; but perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, could clarify that point when he comes to wind up. As indeed the noble Earlhas said, it is fairly obvious that Communists and extreme Left-Wing and militant agitators do what they can to make trouble. It is, of course in their interests to do so; and though, as the noble Earl has said, it is not illegal, and in this country the Communist Party is not illegal, it is deplorable that they should seem to wield so much power and to have so much influence. We shall certainly have to question the Government very closely on what they intend to do in the future about the unions, and what proposals they have for speeding up the report of the Royal Commission on Trade Unions.
In the light of what the noble Earl has said, I think there really should be an inquiry into the circumstances which have been revealed—perhaps under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, or possibly under some other procedure

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which may be equally appropriate. But I do not think that we ought to leave things as they are after what we have been told this afternoon. In the meantime, of course, we support the extension of the Emergency Regulations, and hope that common sense will prevail and that the strike will soon end.
5.43 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Earl for his Statement and for revealing what the Prime Minister has said in another place. It was not a very surprising Statement. I think all of us could have anticipated much of what he said. On the other hand, he said a good deal, and I therefore do not think it is suitable to turn this into a debate on the details of the matter in question. I think all of us on this side of the House must have a great deal of sympathy with the second point made by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. We really are guilty—or perhaps one should say the Government have been rather guilty—of fiddling while Rome burns.
The noble Earl said that this "sad and regrettable position" had been "allowed to grow and fester and suppurate" for years. My question is: Why was it allowed to do that? I think both the Parties who have recently held the reins of Government might have done something more, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, has said, the position is not that of a domestic difficulty. Its effects are world-wide, and are damaging our commerce and ourselves to the very roots of our being.
The fact that only 5,000 delegates out of 60,000 members elected their executive seems to me a very bad state of affairs indeed, and I would support the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in pressing for some sort of inquiry into this state of affairs and into trade unions in general—trade unions which we on these Benches support wholeheartedly as a matter of principle—so that the trade unionist, poor chap!, gets a fair deal and does not have some of his leaders rather exploiting him and the employers thereby having to take a more hostile line than they otherwise would.
5.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I must say that I regret the Statement made
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by the noble Earl, Lord Longford, and regard it as extremely disquieting. I am very grateful to him, as I am sure we all are, for giving us the information he did, but I think it discloses a situation of very great gravity. I agree with all that my noble friend Lord Carrington has said about the serious consequences to the nation which will inevitably flow from this strike not having been brought home to the people. They will, of course, affect everyone in this country, and great injury has been done to the prospects of the nation.
I suppose most people think that the right to refuse to work, if one wishes to refuse,is an essential feature of a free society, though many may regret that this weapon is now sometimes used, so far as one can judge, for wholly inadequate reasons and without regard to the damage done to the nation. But that kind of strike action is surely of a very different character from strike action fostered, maintained and pursued, not just on account of a trade dispute but because, as the noble Earl, Lord Longford, has said, behind the scenes there are a group of people intent on damaging the nation for their own political ends. Strike action of that kind is of a very different character and constitutes a real threat to the nation. I see that Mr. Woodcock described such conduct as a crime. The noble Earl, Lord Longford, has said that it is not illegal. I do not propose to express a view upon that, because it is not really upon that that I rose to address your Lordships.
I would not for one moment wish to suggest that what the noble Earl has said to us this afternoon, what I gather the Prime Minister has said in another place and what the Prime Minister said eight days ago, is inaccurate in any particular; I should not like to be thought to be questioning the accuracy of any of the information which has been given. But there are many in this country who will. There will be a great many people who will not accept what the noble Earl has said. A great many people, or some people, will seek to challenge it. If what we have been told is true, as I believe it is, then it seems to me of vital importance that that truth should be established in the most convincing way possible. I may be wrong, but I do not

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think that in these days people are so ready to accept statements made by politicians unsupported by evidence, whatever eminence those politicians may have.
Therefore, I support most strongly the suggestion put forward by my noble friend that there ought to be an inquiry into this matter. I do not think—I never have thought—that an inquiry under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921 ought to be lightly undertaken—we have had several in the last few years—but if ever there was an occasion for the appointment of a tribunal to inquire into these matters and to report to the country, this, I believe, is the occasion for it. I cannot myself but believe that the report of such a tribunal would be much more widely and generally accepted, after the tribunal has inquired into the matter and heard evidence, than any statements made by anyone in either House.
What reasons can be advanced against it? It may be said that some of the information which we have been given has been derived from secret sources and it is not desired to compromise those sources. That is no argument for not appointing such a tribunal, because we have had tribunals which have sat in camera—and they should sit in camera when matters of secrecy are involved—and we have had tribunals which have sat sometimes in camera and sometimes in public, and their reports have been published and made known.
There will be many, I have no doubt, who will seek to contend that what the Prime Minister has said and what the noble Earl the Leader of the House has said has been said inaccurately and is wrong. If the Prime Minister has been misled or misinformed, by all means let that be established; but if he has not, then let that be established as conclusively as possible. If it be the case that there is this conspiracy, this network of people belonging to a political Party seeking to infiltrate into our industrial organisation and seeking, whenever they can, to damage the prospects of the nation, the sooner that is made public in a form which is widely accepted and acceptable, I believe the better. When the facts are fully known I cannot help thinking that, though what has been done by these in-
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dividuals, as the noble Lord has said, is not now illegal, certainly there ought to be consideration of the question whether such conduct should not be made illegal; and I hope that the Royal Commission will have regard to that.
My Lords, in recent years, indeed, in recent months, one has heard the word "traitor" used repeatedly and, I think, very inaccurately and wrongly. I am not going to use that word in relation to the kind of activities to which the noble Earl referred; but at the same time I should think that with the country in this present economic situation, there are few activities that could be more damaging to the prospects of the whole of this nation than the kind of activities to which the noble Earl has referred. It is for those reasons—and I do not want to pursue the matter—that I press the noble Earl and the Government to give serious consideration to the desirability of appointing a tribunal to operate under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921.
5.54 p.m.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, I wish my first words to be words of sincere congratulation to the Prime Minister for the courageous action he has taken in dealing with some of the influences which are behind the seamen's strike. Like other Members of your Lordships' House, I will not say anything about the merits of the strike. But I have been very much concerned, as I have in my trade union career, with the obvious evidences—to me at least—of Communist and external interest with the conduct of the strike.
Some of the statements made by the Prime Minister reminded me very forcibly of a pamphlet I wrote in 1927. Perceiving the menace to the trade union movement in the activities of the Communist Party in the industrial world, I wrote that pamphlet, which I called, Democracy or Disruption, and in it I gave first-hand evidence from Communist sources, international as well as national, of the existence of the Communist Party's disruptive operations. Unfortunately, there are a large number of people in the Labour movement of this country whose sympathies with anything in the way of working-class action are so strong that they confuse Communist operations with trade union or Labour militancy—something which I think is perfectly legitimate

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and inseparable from the operations of trade unionism. But there is all the difference between the organised operations of the Communist Party to seek to control the operations of the trade unions in the industrial sphere and the militancy which has been characteristic of the trade union movement throughout its histroy.
My Lords, the Communist Party has shown its inability to succeed in the political sphere directly by the election of its members to Parliament; and it therefore approaches the matter in a quite different way. It seeks to gain, not massive support by individuals in the trade union movement joining the Communist Party, but by getting its candidates into key positions inside the unions. That has been the Communist Party's considered policy ever since I can remember; and my experience runs back over 40 years or more. That policy has operated very largely because of the apathy in the average trade union on the occasion of electing its officials. I gathered from the Statement read by the noble Earl that the Prime Minister has made some reference about the smallness of the voting in the Seamen's Union for the election of the Executive Council. That is not peculiar to the Seamen's Union: it exists in some of the largest unions in the country. The Amalgamated Engineering Union seldom gets more than a 10 per cent. vote of its members in electing its officials to the highest positions, and in the Electrical Trades Union the Communist Party specialised in methods of securing people, who would otherwise be minority candidates, to succeed to their positions because of that apathy. They are out to capture the leadership of the trade union movement. That is what they are concerned with. Once that is done, the obtrusiveness of the dictatorship method in which they firmly believe is clearly discernible to those who follow their operations.
It can be taken for granted that in nearly every large-scale strike in this country there is, somewhere or other, a Communist nucleus at work. The strike may be because of legitimate grievances—as I believe is so in the present case—but it is quite different, on the one hand, to strike to secure redress of legitimate grievances and, on the other, to disrupt industry, and to disrupt, in the course of
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those strikes, a trade union for the purpose—to my mind remote and impossible—of somehow securing the overthrow of capitalism. It is absolute nonsense to use phrases of that kind; but unfortunately it happens to be true that that is the objective of the Communist Party even to-day.
The shop stewards of this country have been organised by the Communist Party over a long period of years into a sort of rival leadership to the ordinary elected leaders and appointed leaders of the trade union movement. One finds time and time again in the operations of the shop stewards all the evidences of Communist infiltration and leadership. The difficulty is one of proof. I am not a lawyer, but I know sufficiently well that a fact may be clearly established in a person's mind, yet he may not be able to produce the evidence of it. There may be all sorts of reasons why that is not possible; but, in regard to the Communist Party's activities in the industrial sphere of this country, the evidence is ample. It was so in my time; it remains true to-day.
It should be remembered that it is a perfectly legitimate principle of the Communist Party which enables its members to deny their membership. It is the Jesuitical doctrine, "The end justifies the means"; and as they do not believe in what they call capitalist morality, what is wrong with a member, in the furtherance of the objects that he and his Party stand for, denying his membership of the Party? We in the trade union movement long suspected certain people who were Communist in every way, except in their admission that they were members of the Communist Party. I hope that will not be overlooked.
What is going on is a definite and sustained policy for the capture of the trade union movement, to make it an instrument of Communist domination. I heard—at least I think I heard—the Prime Minister's reference to the fact that no sort of assistance (I am paraphrasing, of course), no sort of intervention—shall I so put it?—in this strike had come from abroad. Are we absolutely sure of that? Have we never heard of a body called the World Federation of Trade Unions, of which I was the first Chairman in the days of 1945 and 1946;when we tried to organise something in the way of a democratic organisation to cover the

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whole of the world's trade unionists? That organisation was subsequently disrupted after I left it, by Communist machinations inside that body for political ends. I had indeed predicted, in February, 1945, that if political issues and tactics were employed in the International, it would go to pieces; and it went to pieces in 1949. My membership and my connection ceased in 1946.
So I wonder, are we absolutely sure that there is no sort of connection with any objectives abroad in this strike? I am perfectly sure that the members of the Executive of the National Union of Seamen have no such objective. I am satisfied that taking them as a group (I do not know what individuals may want), as an executive body, they have one sole purpose; and that sole purpose is to secure the redress of their grievances and enhance their conditions of employment.
Before the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, the Leader of the Opposition, and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, spoke, I had written down the words, "Inquiry into the industrial operations of the Communist Party". Therefore, so far as I am personally concerned (I speak for myself, and I know that there will be dissension outside this House over some of the things I have said), an essential feature which has been revealed to public attention by this strike is that an inquiry should have taken place years ago. I tried to do a little investigating in the Law Courts, in a libel action that I took, with some very surprising results.
My Lords, how does the Communist Party obtain its funds? How is it able to run a staff of industrial organisers? How is it able to have those men posted all over the country to take advantage of grievances and industrial disputes which may arise? Where do they get the money? That has always been the problem, and to me it was one of the biggest problems when, in pursuing the proprietors of the Daily Worker into bankruptcy, I found that the paper was legally owned by a clerk who was in receipt of £4 per week. Where do they get their money? It is beyond the resources of the Labour Movement as a whole, industrial and political, to run a daily newspaper, a national daily news-
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paper; and yet here is a Party, of small membership, fractional membership compared with the others, the big Parties and the big trade unions, which can do so.
Just one or two words in reference to what has been said from the opposite side of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, thought that the economic stresses on the country had not been sufficiently emphasised by the Prime Minister and also in respect of the television interviews which have taken place. It is not the purpose of the National Union of Seamen, I am perfectly sure, to create damage and loss to the country as a whole, but how can they possibly pursue a strike without creating that loss? How is it possible? They believe that the owners could give them greater concessions than those which have already been offered, but what other weapon have they at their disposal to secure that the owners sufficiently feel the losses that are inevitable from a strike so as to induce them to make greater concessions?
If that reasoning by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is correct, does it not follow that any large strike of any kind, by the seamen, or any other kind of strike, ultimately has the object of inflicting economic loss, not on the country—that is something which happens indirectly—but on the employers direct? I do not know. It is a doctrine we have to be a little careful not to stress too far. I am sure that if any other method were open to the seamen, they would try to use it. It is a natural consequence of strikes that economic loss is inflicted on your opponents. Here the opponents happen to be the employers and, unfortunately, indirectly the country as a whole. Nor do I think it wise to overstate the influence of public opinion on a particular dispute. Public opinion, in the sense of an inquiry and the facts revealed by that inquiry, may be a very formidable factor indeed, but in respect of a trade union dispute it is my experience that if the union is in a strong position, public opinion is of little importance to its members. I am now, of course, talking about the individual rank-and-file members who carry on the strike.
My Lords, I conclude by saying that I hope that an inquiry will be set up. I should prefer it to be into the industrial operations of the Communist Party, but it may have to go wider than that. I

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most certainly hope that no expedient, such as referring this matter to the Royal Commission, for example, will be employed. It would be a vague inquiry; it would not be a precise inquiry; it would be an inquiry which was lost in a large measure by the multitude of other questions with which the Royal Commission is grappling. I say, and I repeat, speaking for myself, that I sincerely hope that the Government will, when this trouble is over, launch an inquiry, a well-meditated inquiry, with proper and adequate terms of reference and proper personnel, into the operations of what has been the most insidious force, so far as I know, inside the industrial world.
6.8 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall detain the House only for a very few moments. I agree with a good deal of what has just been said by the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, but I disagree very emphatically with his criticism of my noble friend Lord Carrington for what he said about the duty of the Government to bring home to the nation the economic damage. I think that I have spoken and written as much as possibly anybody in this Chamber in support of the right to strike. But, my Lords, the right to strike does not mean that it is improper to point out the consequences of a strike when they are so ruinous to the nation,
The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, was quite right to point out what is the problem of the trade union seeking better terms for its members. It is operating directly against the employers; but if it involves the nation in immense loss, it is, I think, the task of the Government to point out that loss to the nation which is so deeply concerned. It does not mean, of course, that the justice of the claim put forward by the trade union should be ignored. But it does mean that the propriety of continuing the strike after just terms have been offered for a settlement ought to be considered in the light of the effect the continuation of the strike is having on the nation.
It is curious for me to hear the sudden discovery of the effect of the activities of the Communist Party, which are now being pointed out in various quarters, for I was saying all these things in speeches and writing nearly twenty years ago. The most astonishing of all surprises is that people point out, as though
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it were a great discovery, that the Communists do not succeed in getting their members openly returned to the House of Commons. They are not even particularly eager so to do. What they are aiming at is what the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, pointed out, the capture of key positions in which they can make their will and their action effective.
Many years ago, I remember debating at the Cambridge Union against the late Mr. Harry Pollitt. I congratulated the other side in having their foremost speaker to represent the cause and asked my audience not to be put off in any way by the fact that he had never been elected to the House of Commons. The reason was that, whenever he had stood for election, the electors had been allowed to vote for somebody else. The Communists, of course, were going to do away with all that nonsense. In every county where Communism triumphs Communists are the only people for whom it is legitimate to vote. The idea that the strength of the Communists depends in any way on political success in entering Parliament is an illusion.
In common with the noble Lord, LordCitrine, I strongly support the plea that has been made by my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne, but I do not think that the inquiry can be into the activities of the Communist Party. I think that they would be involved, but I do not think that would be the subject matter of an inquiry. I think that the subject matter must be the charges made by Her Majesty's Government. I am not judging on the truth of these charges at all. It seems to me, from what I know, that it extremely likely that these charges are completely true, but there are those in the trade unions concerned—honest men—who will say that these charges are smears—in fact, it has been so said—and many will believe that.
I think that the subject of the inquiry for which my noble and learned friend has asked so persuasively must not be directed in terms to the activities of the Communist Party. There is nothing new about them. The subject matter must be the charges which have been made by the Prime Minister and Her Majesty's Government on what they have been doing on this occasion. That will involve the inquiry for which the noble

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Lord, Lord Citrine, has asked, but I do not think that what my noble and learned friend was asking for was a general inquiry into Communism, but an inquiry into what the Government say has happened in this case.
6.15 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I do not want to crow but I feel vindicated, for ever since I came into your Lordships' House I have been speaking on this subject of the infiltration of Communism into industry, as noble Lords will see if they read back Hansards. I have also given plenty of instances. But no one ever took it seriously. I am extremely glad that the Prime Minister has had the courage to bring this out into the open at last. It is most cheering from my point of view. And I have not the least doubt that what he says is completely true.
Regarding the excellent speech of the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, I could tell him where before the war the Communist Party got their funds. It was through a certain timber importing firm. I can tell him the name in private, if he would like to know it. I have always taken a great interest in the Communist Party, as I have always realised their extreme danger to the cause of freedom in this country. If freedom is not cared for, freedom will destroy itself. And I have often pointed out the great danger of the Communist Party's gaining control of the unions.
6.17 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, my noble Leader in his full Statement deployed a great many of the facts and most of the arguments in this matter. It will only be necessary for me to reply as briefly as I can to some of the points that have been raised in the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, was very critical of the Government and accused the Government of not having brought home the seriousness of the strike and its economic consequences to the nation. The noble Lord, Lord Rea (who advised me that he had to leave), even accused us—it was most
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unlike him—of fiddling while Rome burned. It is not asking a great deal of noble Lords to cast their minds back some six weeks to the start of the strike, when the Prime Minister spoke to the nation an television. I do not think that anyone can possibly say that he did not, in the gravest terms, point out to the whole nation the serious nature of the problem which confronted us and the serious economic consequences to everyone throughout the nation if the strike continued. Indeed, he was criticised by many people for having made such a grave statement.
Ever since then, at every possible opportunity, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, and all other Ministers, have not ceased to printout these facts. In particular, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour, in all their discussions with the executive of the Seamen's Union, have pointed to the seriousness of the consequences. I think it is grossly unfair to make this charge. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said that the casual visitor to London would not find a shortage of anything. I agree that that is so. But that, in a way, is a tribute to the arrangements that have been made, and also a tribute to the way in which other trade unions have discharged their responsibilities and kept essential supplies going, so that it has not been necessary to use the Emergency Powers which we took four weeks ago.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Lord has misunderstood what I have said. What I was saying was that, because there was no shortage, and you came to London and did not find a shortage of anything, people were not aware that a strike was going on, and this made it doubly important for the Government to bring home to the people of the country the seriousness of the economic consequences of the strike.
LORD STONHAM: It may well be that a visitor from abroad would be in some doubt about it, but anyone who has mixed with the people of this country will be well aware that they are all extremely conscious of the strike and anxious about it, and the one thing that has surprised them is that there has been, so far, less personal hardship than they had expected. But that is not a matter with

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which to reproach the Government. Certainly we have done everything possible to bring the consequences of this strike and of its continuance to the notice of the people.
The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said that public opinion could play a large part in fighting a strike. I entirely agree. But the noble Lord will be aware that at the commencement of the strike there was a large body of opinion which had considerable sympathy with the seamen's case. Neither the Prime Minister, nor anyone in the Cabinet, has ever denied that, and, indeed, have often said that the seamen have a very strong case. That continued for several weeks of the strike Indeed, I think one of the factors which is now altering the situation, and is responsible for the welcome change of attitude on the part of the members of the executive of the N.U.S., is the change in public opinion: because the good will of a large number of the people has been eroded by the constant succession of instantaneous refusals to consider what appeared to be, not only to the general public, but to the T.U.C., constructive proposals which, it was thought by objectively minded people, formed a basis for discussion. Therefore, we certainly agree that public opinion in this matter is important.
I think the most important point that has been raised in every speech, except the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, is the demand for an inquiry. There is unanimity among those who have spoken about an inquiry. But there is complete disunity among all four about what the inquiry should be about.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No!
LORD STONHAM: I listened to all four, and if noble Lords will just listen to me, I will say how I heard it. First of all, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, asked for an inquiry into the circumstances which have been revealed—and they are either his exact words or a fair paraphrase of them. My noble friend Lord Citrine asked for an inquiry into the effects of Communist activity in industry. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, asked for a tribunal of inquiry under the Tribunals and Inquiries Act; and, as I understood him—and certainly as his noble friend Lord Cones-
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ford understood him—into the legal aspects of the matter.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Not as regards the legal aspect of the matter, my Lords You do not appoint a tribunal of inquiry under the 1921 Act to find out what the legal aspects are You appoint one to find out the facts. And the facts that ought to be investigated are the very same facts for which my noble friends Lord Carrington asked; that is, the full circumstance of what has now been disclosed by the Prime Minister and the noble Earl the Leader of this House. That is exactly another way of expressing what I, and my noble friends Lord Conesford, were asking for.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, may I join in that? I thought that what the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, had said in regard to the circumstances of the strike opened up the operations of the Communist Party in industry as a whole. Surely that is a feasible and proper deduction from what was said.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord why he said that I do not want an inquiry? I certainly want an inquiry.
LORD STONHAM: I left the noble Viscount out because he got up and said in terms that he knew all about it, and, indeed, had conveyed all the information, and would convey it again privately to my noble friend. Obviously, if he knows all the answers, there is no need for an inquiry. I think, if your Lordships study Hansard to-morrow, not merely what was originally said, but what has been said now, you will see that there is justification for my view that in the speeches we have listened to we have heard a virtually unanimous demand for an inquiry, and considerable differences of opinion as to what the inquiry should be about.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No!
LORD STONHAM: Well, that is my view as I heard it. May I remind your Lordships that we have now the Court of Inquiry under Lord Pearson, which will continue and complete its work and make recommendations with regard to legislation? We decided to set up a separate independent inquiry into the

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structure, organisation and efficiency of the industry. As well as these two major and essential inquiries, we have also the Royal Commission on Trade Unions which, in many of its aspects, will certainly be relevant to what we have been discussing. I have to say, in answer to noble Lords' questions, that the Government have no intention of setting up any other inquiry.
LORD CARRINGTON: Why not?
LORD CITRINE: Hear, hear! Why not?
LORD STONHAM: I thought that I had made the reasons quite clear.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
LORD STONHAM: I have made the reasons clear, because I have given the nature of the inquiries now going on, including the Royal Commission on Trade Unions; and the Government do not intend to have any other inquiries.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? As I understand it, the Pearson Committee are inquiring into the industry, and there is the Royal Commission on Trade Unions. What my noble friends and I were asking for (and, of course, the terms of reference would have to be settled at a later date if there were an inquiry) was an inquiry into the circumstances which the Prime Minister has revealed. This is not touched on by the other two inquiries.
LORD STONHAM: The Government have no present intention of having such an inquiry.
LORD CARRINGTON: Why not?
LORD STONHAM: Because they have decided not to.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, are we to understand from the noble Lord that the Government, before hearing a word of the debate in this House, have made up their mind? If so, I protest most strongly against it.
LORD STONHAM: Well, my Lords. it is the case, also, that a number of noble Lords had made up their minds to demand an inquiry before ever they heard a word of the debate.
LORD CITRINE: Well, do not include this noble Lord in that. I wrote out my points while the debate was in progress.
LORD STONHAM: I have one or two more points that I should like to deal with which were raised during the debate.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I should like to make the same disclaimer. I did not even know that the request for an inquiry was going to be made. I had had no conversation whatever with any of my noble friends. I decided that there ought to be an inquiry when I listened to the speech of the noble Earl the Leader of the House. What I had in mind was that everything he said might be absolutely true and relevant. Of course, I knew that he thought it was. But I also had in mind, as one who has in the course of time met many trade unionists and trade union leaders, that the trade union concerned and many of its members might say, "This is a smear". I thought that, if they did, as I believe they will, these allegations should be the subject of an inquiry.
LORD STONHAM: I do not doubt that there are people who would say that what has been said is a smear. They are likely to be people who are affected by the truth, and we should be quite unmoved by statements of that kind. On the point about not having prepared any of this, I hope that my noble friend Lord Citrine and the noble Lord, Lord Cones-ford, will acquit me of any kind of slur. I, too, am speaking without any kind of notes, except those I have taken down during the debate.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, is the noble Lord trying to suggest that I have come here with the completely preconceived idea of asking for an inquiry? That seems to me to follow from what he has said. After the Prime Minister made his statement eight days ago, I thought that there might be need for an inquiry into those allegations so that they could be established beyond any doubt. That is what I should like to see. When the statement was made to-day by the Leader of the House, I was confirmed in that impression, and I should be grateful if, as a matter of courtesy, the Government would say why they have rejected my suggestion flatly and straight away—I asked that it should be

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thought about—without giving any reason. The noble Lord will bear in mind that the Prime Minister has been challenged to say outside this House what he has said inside, obviously with a view to bringing the matter before the courts. If he does not repeat it outside, great capital will be made out of that fact. I do not want to cast the slightest criticism on the Prime Minister for what he has said. I want to see it established conclusively and convincingly by an independent tribunal, because then it will carry weight.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for repeating again what he said in his speech: that he has no doubt about the accuracy of what has been said. But he did say, or suggest, that there might be many people who would question that accuracy; and he has said it again. I do not think the Prime Minister's words, which have been repeated by my noble Leader, will be questioned by any but a small minority of people in this country. Remember, my Lords, that the people have seen and heard on their television screens, very convincingly, the words and actions of many of the people to whom reference has been made. They are aware of these things, and I do not think they will have any doubt at all from their own knowledge that what has been said to-day, both here and in another place, is absolutely true and has been submitted in very restrained terms.
The noble and learned Viscount said that the conduct about which we have been talking to-day should be made illegal. I have nothing to say on behalf of the Government about that.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt again, but with great respect I did not say that. I said that consideration should be given to that question. I was not expressing a view on it.
LORD STONHAM: I am grateful.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, before my noble friend leaves the question of an inquiry, I should like to ask whether I understood him correctly when he said that all these matters could be investigated by the Royal Commission. Was he suggesting that that is an alternative way of
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carrying out the inquiry? If that is so, is not the real question which of the two methods is the more satisfactory?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, to quote my noble friend, I did not say that all these matters can be considered by the Royal Commission. What I said, and would repeat, is that there are many implications in the present circumstances which it would be natural for the Royal Commission to inquire into, and which may well guide them in any views they may express. But we certainly could not, and should not, attempt to anticipate what the Royal Commission might say.
I was grateful to my noble friend Lord Citrine for his speech and for reminding us that as long ago as 1927 he published a pamphlet called, as I understood him, Democracy or Disruption. My Lords, that is nearly forty years ago, but that is what this whole dispute is about: it is a choice between democracy or disruption. It is quite clear from what my noble Leader has said this afternoon, and from the facts that he has given—and again they were confirmed by my noble friend Lord Citrine out of his forty years'experience—that what he described was the calculated and sustained policy of the Communist Party to capture the trade union movement and use it for the furtherance of Communist policy. What that means is that it is an attempt to create industrial chaos in which they think Communism may breed and flourish. That is what makes the Statement by the Prime Minister on June 20 of such outstanding importance. As my noble Leader said, it took a great deal of courage to make that statement at that time, and to say what has again been said to-day. But the Prime Minister decided that he would not be doing his duty if in this matter he stood aloof.
It is absolutely vital that we fight and win the fight for economic solvency. In order to do that, the unions and the public must be informed and aroused to the need in a free democratic society for them to be active all the time, and to defeat the few organized wreckers in our midst. In other words, as my noble friend suggested, people have to decide as much in 1966 as in 1927 whether it is to be "democracy or disruption". In nothing which has been said by the Prime Minister, and certainly in nothing which

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has been said by my noble Leader, has there been any attack at all on trade unionism or on militancy. What we are doing is attempting to create the right conditions for constructive trade union action on behalf of trade unionists and the nation.
I welcome the hope of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, which we all share, that this disastrous strike will be settled soon on the fair terms which are available, and have been available for a long time. But it does not rest entirely with us; it certainly does not rest entirely with the Government. It is our duty, and will be our continuing duty, so long as the strike lasts, to take whatever action is necessary to preserve the interests of the nation and our people. In making the statements that have been made, the Prime Minister has been fulfilling his duty to the nation, and in that fulfilment he has the right to expect the wholehearted support of every one of us. I am quite sure that he will get that support.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MATRIMONIAL HOMES BILL [H.L.]
6.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD GRENFELL in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Protection against eviction, etc., from matrimonial home of spouse not entitled by virtue of estate, etc., to occupy it.
1.—
(b) may require a spouse occupying the dwelling house or any part thereof by virtue of this section to make periodical payments to the other in respect of the occupation;
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved, in subsection 3(b), to leave out "require" and insert "order". The noble Baroness said: The Committee will recall that I explained these clauses in some detail, and that Clause 1(3)(b) enables the court,
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on an application with regard to a spouse's rights of occupation, to require the spouse occupying the matrimonial home, or any part of it, by virtue of Clause 1 to make periodical payments to the other in respect of the occupation. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, whom I am glad to see here this afternoon, said on the Second Reading that he felt some doubt as to the nature of the payments which might be required to be made. He asked whether they would be recoverable as a civil debt or whether they were a condition which, if not complied with, would terminate the right to stay in the house.
It is possible, I agree, that the word "require" might be misconstrued, and the object of Clause 1(3)(b) is to give the court power to order the occupying spouse to make periodical payments. I apologise if that was not quite clear. It was to get that power so that if the payments are not kept up the other spouse may enforce payment of the arrears by issuing execution or employing any of the other recognised means of recovering money under a judgment.
If the court simply wishes to make the payment of an occupation rent a condition of the occupying spouse remaining in the premises, it can do so in the exercise of its general power under Clause 1(2) to restrict, terminate or regulate the rights of occupation. If the court imposes such a condition without making an order for payment of the occupation rent, any arrears which accumulate will not be enforceable as a judgment debt, but the owner spouse will be able to take steps to evict the occupying spouse. Therefore the Amendment seeks to make the position clear by substituting "order" for "require" in Clause 1(3)(b), and I hope the Committee will accept this rather minor Amendment which will nevertheless possibly have some major effect when the clause comes to be operated. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, leave out ("require") and insert ("order").—(Baroness Summerskill.)
LORD WILBERFORCE: I am grateful that the noble Baroness referred to the observations which I made on the Second Reading and which have led to this Amendment. I welcome it because it seems to be an improvement, although I

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must say that I feel the draftsman of this clause has been somewhat economical in the way in which the objects I suggested are to be achieved by changing one word into another. I should have liked to see something rather more explicit which would have made it clear what the effect of any such requirement order might be. But the noble Baroness has given us an explanation and I am far from disputing it. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, I gratefully accept the Amendment as meeting, at any rate to a large extent, the point which I made on the Second Reading of the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved to add to subsection (5):
"Where a spouse entitled under this section to occupy a dwelling house or any part thereof makes any payment in or towards satisfaction of any liability of the other spouse in respect of mortgage payments affecting the dwelling house, the person to whom the payment is made may treat it as having been made by that other spouse, but the fact that that person has treated any such payment as having been so made shall not affect any claim of the first-mentioned spouse against the other to an interest in the dwelling house by virtue of the payment."
The noble Baroness said: The object of this Amendment is to meet a point raised by the Building Societies Association. I would say at this stage that I think certain noble Lords felt that the building societies would be aggrieved, but I can assure them that this is the only point which has been raised. Therefore I hasten to meet this criticism, and in doing so I hope I shall have the support of the Committee.
When a mortgagee has notice of a subsequent incumbent he is obliged, on redemption of the mortgage, to hand over the title deeds to the subsequent incumbent. If the wife of a mortgagor pays off the mortgage debt out of her own pocket she acquires an interest in the property to the extent of the payment she has made. If, therefore, the mortgagee knows of the position, he will be obliged to hand over the title deeds to the wife. However, it may be difficult for him to make certain that the wife has paid the money out of her own pocket. Her husband might dispute this and say, for example, that she had paid it out of housekeeping money which he has given her. At the present
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time a mortgagee may avoid this difficulty by refusing to accept any payment from the wife. A mortgagee is not obliged to allow a mortgage to be discharged by someone who has no interest in the property. If, therefore, the wife tenders the money, he can decline to accept it unless she takes proceedings, for example under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act 1882, in order to determine her interest in the property. If her husband has disappeared and it is impracticable for her to take such proceedings, the mortgagee may insist upon an indemnity insurance being taken out before he accepts the money and hands over the title deeds to her.
Under Clause 1(5) of the Bill a mortgagee will have no right to refuse to accept mortgage payments tendered by the wife. The subsection provides that any payment or tender of mortgage money by the spouse entitled under Clause 1 to occupy the premises shall be as good as if made by the other spouse. Consequently the mortgagee will have no more right to refuse the money from an occupying wife than he would have if it were offered by the owner husband. But although he will be obliged to accept the money, he will not know whether it has been paid by the wife on her husband's behalf, thus reducing his liability, or on her own behalf, thus giving her an interest in the mortgaged property. Indeed, she may not tell him in what capacity she is making the payment; and even if she does he will have no means of knowing whether the husband accepts her statement.
He will therefore be in a dilemma if, when the final payment is made, she claims the title deeds on the footing that she has redeemed the mortgage on her own account. In order to rescue the mortgagee from this dilemma the Amendment provides that he shall be entitled to treat any payment made by the occupying spouse as having been made by the owner spouse. If he does so, it will not affect the position as between the spouses themselves. The occupying spouse will still be able to take proceedings against the other spouse under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act 1882, or otherwise, to establish any claim which she may have to an interest in the property by virtue of any payment she has made.
The Amendment simply provides that the mortgagee may treat the payment by the occupyingspouse as having been made by the other spouse. The mortgagee will not be obliged to do so, and if the occupying spouse were prepared to take proceedings to get her claim established, or to take out an indemnity insurance before the title deeds were taken over, the mortgagee might well be prepared to hand them to her. I hope the Committee will agree that this is an equitable approach to the complaint made by the Building Societies Association. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 30, at end insert the said words.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
LORD MESTON: I am very exercised in my mind about the position of mortgagees, and especially that of building societies. I must declare an interest; I am a director of a building society myself, although I may not have that appearance. At the outset, I have great sympathy with the deserted wife—that is to say, the wife who has been left by her husband in a home and probably has children to look after as well as herself; and there is the even worse position where the wife has been obliged to leave the home on account of her husband's behaviour and has probably had to take the children with her. But we live in an imperfect world, and in this imperfect world we find it necessary to be practical rather than always to rely upon man's sympathy.
May I read what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said on the Second Reading of the Bill?
"The general rule with regard to the priority of equitable interests is that an earlier interest prevails over a laterone. If a house is already owned by a husband subject to a mortgage at the date of the marriage or at the date of the commencement of this Act, the mortgage will have priority over the charge for the wife's right of occupation. The charge created by Clause 2 will be binding on third parties who acquire an interest in the house, but a purchaser for valuable consideration will be bound only if the charge is registered as a land charge."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 275 (No. 20), col. 24; 14/6/66.]
That may be satisfactory so far as it goes, but how far does it go? As your Lordships know, a building society lends
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to the individual whose name appears on the title deeds. If the loan is made to a married man in whose name are the title deeds, then indeed there is no initial difficulty. On the other hand, if the title deeds are in the name of a woman it is sometimes desirable to obtain a male guarantor. In the case of the title deeds being in the name of a married woman, needless to say the guarantor is usually the husband. It is quite impossible for a building society to lend money to an individual on the basis of whether he or she is on good or bad terms with his or her spouse. There is no machinery for doing that.
I am going to ask in plain language that this Bill be so drafted that the situation of a building society is left absolutely untouched: that is to say, so that it can exercise its proper functions in the ordinary way as it does at present, without any interference from the provisions of this Bill. I am not being the slightest bit offensive to the noble Baroness, because she has explained the position very nicely and very clearly, but I think it utterly wrong that a building society should be concerned with the question of whether or not the husband and wife have been slapping each other's faces and have left the house. It has nothing to do with the subject at all. No building society, no business, could be carried on on that basis.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I can help the Committee at all on this point, I should like to do so. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Meston, that the Bill will not in fact affect the position of building societies at all, provided that this Amendment is made. He will no doubt agree that the Building Societies Association has agood deal of experience of mortgages. They were apprehensive that without this Amendment their position might be prejudiced. They are satisfied that with this Amendment it will not be. The sole object of the Amendment is to meet the point which had been raised by the Building Societies Association and which this Amendment does meet. As the noble Lord will see, all it does is to give them a power, and provided they have that power they are satisfied.
LORD MESTON: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, for what he has said. May I still, with due respect to him, consider the matter again in my mind?
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Effect of statutory rights of occupation as charge on dwelling house
2.—(1) Where, at any time during the subsistence of a marriage, one spouse is entitled to occupy a dwelling house by virtue of an estate or interest, then the other spouse's rights of occupation under section 1 above shall be a charge on that estate or interest, having the like priority as if it were an equitable interest created at whichever is the latest of the following dates, that is to say,—

(a) the date when the spouse so entitled acquires the estate or interest;

(b) the date of the marriage; and

(c)the commencement of this Act.

(5) Where a spouse's rights of occupation under section 1 above are a charge on the estate or interest of the other spouse, and the other spouse—

(a) is adjudged bankrupt or makes a conveyance or assignment of his or her property to trustees for the benefit of his or her creditors generally; or

(b) dies and his or her estate is insolvent;

then, notwithstanding any order under section 1 above, those rights shall determine, and any such order relating thereto shall cease to have effect.
6.56 p.m.
LORD WILBERFORCE LORD WILBERFORCE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "one spouse" and insert:
"obtains an order under section 1 of this Act, then any right of occupation conferred by that order shall be a charge on the estate or interest of the other spouse having priority as from the date of registration of the order:
Provided that if within one month prior to the date of any such order a priority notice shall have been registered in accordance with this Act the charge hereby created shall have priority as from the date of registration of such notice."
The noble and learned Lord said: My noble and learned friends whose names appear on this Amendment have asked me to move it, and I am very pleased to do so. The purpose of the
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Amendment is to remedy certain doubts that were felt on the Second Reading of this Bill by, I think, a number of your Lordships as to the wisdom of extending the rights of spouses in relation to matrimonial property so widely as this Bill does. Your Lordships may take occasion to look back at the Explanatory Memorandum to this Bill, which appears at the beginning, and you will see there that the occasion for it was the decision of the House of Lords in the Ainsworth case, which it was thought brought prejudice to the position of deserted wives. Also it is said there in the first paragraph that:
"the Bill gives substantial effect to the recommendations …of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce."
But, as I ventured to suggest on Second Reading, this Bill and in particular Clause 2(1), goes a long way further than merely protecting the rights of a deserted spouse; it goes a long way further than restoring the law as some thought or wished it to be before the Ainsworth case, and goes a long way beyond the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce.
The particular point to which this Amendment is directed is the provision in Clause 2(1) which says that the right of spouse who does not own the property is to be an equitable interest dating from, among other things, the date of the marriage, or if the property is acquired afterwards the date of acquisition. That has two possible damaging effects on the general law as regards property belonging to one spouse. In the first' place, it introduces complications into the title to that property and into dealings with that property; that is to say, it complicates the dealings with all matrimonial homes all over the country, irrespective of whether or not the situation of desertion has arisen.
As the clause now stands, the effect is that any wife, or any husband if the property belongs to the wife, is in a position to register a charge against the property of the other spouse immediately on marriage. That this is not merely a theoretical possibility was shown on Second Reading, when certain speakers, my noble and learned friend Lord Denning among others, suggested that that was desirable, and indeed expressed

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the wish that it would become the general custom of the country. So we are not dealing here with a possible theoretical right; we are dealing with a right which it is intended shall arise and be exercised as regards all matrimonial homes as from the date of the marriage.
The possibility of a spouse so registering his or her claim against the property at that stage immediately gives rise to the possibility, or really the necessity, of expense and the employment of lawyers over the machinery and technicalities of registration. Toregister a charge is not an easy matter. You have to get a form to do so. You either have to employ a solicitor or you have to execute a statutory declaration. And, of course, if charges are going to be put on every property, there will be a lot of work at the Land Registry. Then, once the charge is on the register, and suppose it is a wife who has put the charge on, before any dealings in the property can take place it is necessary for the wife's charge to be cleared off.
I venture to think that no building society would dream of lending money on the security of a house unless a charge registered against it under this Bill were cleared off before the charge was made. Again, if the charge is to be cleared off that means delay, it means expense, and it means the employment of lawyers. So that anybody thinking of moving house, or selling his house in order to acquire another, or thinking of raising fresh money on his house, will be put in the position of having to get rid of a charge registered against the house under this Bill.
Secondly, the Bill, as it stands in effect gives a general right of veto to one spouse on all dealings by the other spouse, because once a charge is on the register it gets priority over anything else, and therefore no dealing can take place unless the owner of the charge gives his or her consent. So that the owner of a house, who up till now has an absolute right in his property, is from now on, according to this Bill, to be fettered in the disposition of his property. In our view, that is a major step in social policy which, we venture to suggest, should not have been brought in in connection with this Bill.
The whole question of the property rights of spouses generally over the home, over furniture, was most carefully considered by the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce under two headings. They considered whether there should be community of property, and they considered the question of the deserted spouse's rights. As regards community, there was a great division of opinion. Some thought there should be, some thought there should not be; some thought it should extend to the house, some thought it should extend to furniture, and some thought it should extend to combinations of the two. But certainly there was no agreement there. That is a matter on which, so far, there is no consensus of opinion; and certainly no such consensus has justified a step to-wards community being taken in this Bill.
So far as this Bill is concerned, it does not go so far as to reintroduce community of property, though again I think some thought that this was a welcome step in that direction. In a way, this is worse, because under any system of community of property at least one spouse has the right of management of the community property, so that dealings in it can be made. But under this Bill one spouse has not the right to deal with his property without the consent of the other if there is a charge on it. It is, in effect, a wrangler's charter.
As regards the extent of the deserted spouse's right of occupancy, as I pointed out on Second Reading, the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce carefully considered exactly when that should arise, and suggested in paragraph 669 of their Report that it should arise from desertion and not before. Therefore, one is entitled to ask, what is the justification in this Bill for going beyond that suggestion?
The Amendment which we are suggesting is not in any way an anti-spouse, an anti-feminist move—not in any way at all. The reason for it is that it is just as much in the interests of wives, of spouses, that dealings in property should be easy, should be cheap, should not be limited by technicalities, as it is that they should be secured in the possession of their rights. There are many people who are interested, in a perfectly normal way, in having made available easy mortgages,

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easy and cheap dealings in property; and it is in order to facilitate that objective, which is just as good an objective as to protect deserted wives, that this Amendment is put forward.
I need not, I think, spend much time in explaining the Amendment; I hope it explains itself. It goes somewhat further than the Royal Commission suggested, and is, perhaps we might suggest, rather better than what the Royal Commission suggested. We quite recognise that if one were to wait until one spouse, the deserted spouse got an order from the court against the deserting spouse, that might be too late. The husband (if he is the deserter) may by then have gone off and sold the property over his wife's head, or placed a mortgage on it. So, therefore, we suggest this mechanism which is reflected in the proviso: that a spouse who can see trouble coming can go straight away and put a charge on the register, and that gives a priority as from the date the charge is put on. Then, of course, if an order is obtained under Clause 1 of the Bill, the charge is carried forward. If an order is not obtained, then the charge lapses.
One can discuss the details of that mechanism. Some may think that one month is not long enough. It is easy to extend it to two or three months, if that is desired. We think that one month is enough because, as was pointed out on Second Reading, it is intended that these applications should come before the county court and that they should be dealt with rapidly. But if anyone thinks that one month is too short, it is easy to adjust it by extending it. Furthermore, this Amendment deals only with Clause 2 of the Bill, and if it were to be agreed to it would be necessary no doubt to carry out some consequential Amendments of a technical character to subsequent clauses. We assure those who advise and assist the noble Baroness that they will have no difficulty in dealing with them. The mechanism of the priority notice is, I should say, nothing new. It is a well tried and recognised mechanism in this sphere of land registration, and it has the practical advantage of enabling steps to be taken in advance before the actual order of the court is obtained.
That is the Amendment which is suggested. We hope that it does rather
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better than the Royal Commission, that it avoids the difficulties which otherwise we feel will result from the wide terms in which Clause 2(1) of the Bill is at present couched. So I have pleasure in moving it. Perhaps I may just say that if, by any chance, I am called away before the discussion is concluded, I know that the noble Baroness will acquit me of discourtesy. But at any rate two of my supporters are here to sustain the burden of the debate.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 5, leave out from ("spouse") to end of line 14 and insert the said words and proviso.—(Lord Wilberforce.)
7.8 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I should like to congratulate the noble Lord on making the best of a weak case. I want to appeal to the Committee, on grounds which I hope they will agree are absolutely fair. In my opinion, the scheme embodied in the Amendment which the noble Lord has just expounded would not afford a deserted wife sufficient protection from eviction, which, after all, is what we are seeking to do. It is what the Royal Commission sought to do; they are seeking to afford a wife protection against eviction.
I want to prove to the Committee that the noble Lord's case is such that a wife would be absolutely vulnerable if her marriage were threatened. She can already apply to the courts under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act, 1882, for an order restraining her husband from parting with his interest in the matrimonial home. But it is most uncommon for this step tobe taken, except in the course of divorce proceedings. Wives are usually reluctant to go to court and, so it seems, to have to publicise difficulties about which women are most sensitive, unless compelled by necessity to do so. I want to emphasise that the wife will be reluctant to reveal that there is domestic disharmony unless absolutely forced to do so. Furthermore, a wife would not want to incur trouble and expense in taking proceedings unless actually threatened with eviction.
Experience tends to show—and I am supported in this by many of my friends in the legal world—that if protection could be obtained only by going to the

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court, many wives would fail to take proceedings before their husbands had sold or mortgaged the matrimonial home. Therefore, this proposal will, in effect, shut the door only after the steed has escaped. That analogy has been made before, but in this case it is a sound one.
The noble Lord said words to the effect that when the husband and wife quarrel she will then take action. Is a man so simple that he is going to wait for the last quarrel before he sees the estate agent and asks him about getting rid of his house? It is true that the Amendment would enable her to register a priority notice while she was seeking an order, but this would be of no avail to her unless she registered the notice before her husband parted with his interest and she obtained an order within a month after registering the notice. It is unlikely that she would register a priority notice until she decided to take proceedings, and by that time it would be too late. Even if the husband gave away his interest, if he said to his mistress, or to a relation, "You can have this house", I am advised that the transferee would obtain a good title against the wife unless she had obtained an order or registered a priority notice before the transfer was completed. So it would be possible for a husband one night to write to a relation or to his mistress and say, "The house is yours". What on earth then is the good of the wife, in the following weeks, trying to register her charge? Surely the Bill, as it stands, gives the wife much more certain protection.
First of all, there is no need for her to take court proceedings. She need not even register her charge to make it binding on a person who acquired the husband's interest otherwise than for value. In other words, if the husband did as I have suggested and said to his mistress or friend, "You can have the house", that would not be valid. She has not got to register her charge in those circumstances. It will, for example, be binding on anybody to whom the husband gives away his interests after the date specified in Clause 2(1). That subsection, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, and his friends object, gives certain dates and it is after
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the last of those dates that this could operate. If the wife registers her charge it will be binding on a purchaser for value who acquires the husband's interest after the date of registration.
Furthermore, we were told about the cost of registering her charge, and I am very glad that Lord Wilberforce has changed his mind to-day. Registration is much simpler and cheaper than taking court proceedings. Application for registration is made on sending or delivering the prescribed form to the Land Charges Department of the Land Registry. The application need not be made by a solicitor if supported by a statutory declaration. If after the wife has registered her charge the husband wishes to sell or mortgage the property while the parties are still living in amity, surely the wife will agree to release her charge so as not to impede the transaction. The average wife is not an ogre; she is not watching her husband the whole time to catch him out. Most marriages are happy. The wife has a vested interest in the home;not a material one, but her whole happiness is bound up in the home. Surely the love of her children, her home, and security are the most potent forces in a woman's life. Surely those noble Lords who are happily married have realised that. I have never met a happily married wife who would refuse to help her husband in circumstances of this kind.
Therefore, when noble Lords say to me that if she put a charge on this property she would not be prepared to help her husband if he wanted a mortgage, I say these are not the realities of life. Provided the couple are living in happiness, she will be only too prepared to help him. To do this she would simply arrange for one of the solicitors involved in the transaction to lodge an application for cancellation of the registration. If she did not agree, if there was some trouble, then the husband could apply to the court for an order under Clause 1 restricting or terminating her rights if he felt that her opposition was not justified.
I am sorry the noble Lord has gone, but I see that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, is here. I must draw his attention to this, and I can assure him that I would not dare stand in front of noble and learned Lords if I had not had the very best legal advice.

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Apart from being objectionable in principle, the Amendment is technically defective and I hope your Lordships will not support it in the following respects.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble Lady heard my noble friend Lord Wilberforce say that he realised that the Amendment would be required to be made and that there would be consequential Amendments, but the Amendment is sufficiently well drafted surely to show its object.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I am not a lawyer. I am a simple woman.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): Not so simple!
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I must confess to the House that I was shocked to find an Amendment, in the names of a former Speaker of the House and three Judges, which contains three important technical defects. Therefore, it surely falls as an Amendment. May I therefore dare to instruct their Lordships in the technicalities of the law? First of all, it makes the priority of the wife's charge take effect from the date of registration of an order conferring any right of occupation. Registration of the order should, however, be relevant only in the case of a disposition to a purchaser for value. As against any other person, the order should take priority from the date it was made.
The second technical defect: a priority notice is a method of securing priority for a charge as from the date of its creation, notwithstanding that it is not registered until later. Its purpose is to prevent priority being lost to another charge which is registered in the meantime. The priority notice mentioned in the Amendment would be used for quite a different purpose. Its object would be to secure priority as from the date of registration of the notice of an order which might not at that time have been made, applied for, and indeed which might never in fact be made.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: What is wrong with that? The noble Lady is getting into rather deep technical waters.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Well, the very best legal advice—and the noble Viscount knows I have had it—has told me that the Amendment is very wrongly drafted, and indeed the priority notice is being used in an entirely wrong sense.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: No.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: The noble Lord challenges me, and I have to rub it in. The third technical defect is that a priority notice is appropriate only where it relates to unregistered land. Where the title to the land is registered, priority is secured by the entry of a caution or inhibition. That seems, even to my non-legal mind, to be absolutely elementary. So I hope the Committee will support me.
May I just interpret this now in simple words? As the Committee will realise, I have had to stick to the technicalities of the law and, indeed, the non-technicalities of the law, because they must obviously be very carefully considered. But what am I trying to do? A marriage is not going well, and various unpleasant incidents culminate in what the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, described to me in the Tea Room as a "blow-up". The wife decides, finally, that the position is intolerable—and I do not have to tell your Lordships that a woman does not allow her home to be upset until she has endured so much that she cannot stand it any longer—and for the sake of the children and her own peace of mind she says that there must be some change.
The wife registers a priority notice, which I understand lapses—this is according to the new Amendment—if she does not take action and obtain an order within one month. This surely provides a clear warning to a husband that she is prepared to take action to protect herself and her family. No doubt in her distress she will then telephone her mother, her father and her friends, and most husbands will not be placated by that kind of publicity. Then, in consequence, the husband may decide to endeavour to soothe his wife for a month until the priority notice lapses, and then make private arrangements to dispose of the house. This is the effect of the Amendment which we have had

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described to us. I can think of no proposition like the one embodied in the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment more calculated to destroy the chances of a reunion, and that is what we hope for.
All I am proposing to do is to modify a convention. The passage of the Married Women's Property Act 1882 was not easy, although it simply permitted a wife to retain her own property. Yet there were objections similar to those which we have heard on this Bill. It was argued, just as we have heard on this Bill, that it would cause disharmony in the home if a woman were given these rights, and that the husband should have complete freedom to raise money on a house belonging to his wife. On marriage a husband promises to share all his worldly goods, but this solemn promise in church has no legal sanction whatsoever. I am asking that it should be inherent in marriage that a wife should have the right to a roof for herself and her children.
Are women asking too much in seeking that it should be inherent in marriage that a wife has some rights and that a mother has some rights? By this Bill she is not even asking to own the house; she is asking to have a roof over her head under which to live with her children. In other countries wives have an equal right to the ownership of the matrimonial home, but this measure does not go as far as that. The fear that the provisions of this Bill will interfere with a man's business are not in keeping with the realities of life. If a man and wife are living happily, the wife is only too willing to help her husband in his business in every way in her power.
Finally, I would say this. If the marriage was heading for the rocks it would not be surprising if a wife was reluctant to withdraw her charge. To do so would, in fact, be a rejection of the protection which the Royal Commission sought to provide for her, and which I hope this House will agree the wife and mother should have.
LORD DERWENT: May I say one word on this Amendment and on the clause as it stands, because I raised this matter on the Second Reading? The
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noble Baroness has talked a good deal about this clause in connection with eviction, but of course it is Clause 1 which deals with eviction, and I think it was agreed last time that cases of eviction are not very numerous, though when they occur they are very serious.
But what is Clause 2, as it stands, doing? It is, in fact, a method of stopping either spouse from dealing in any way with the matrimonial home without the agreement of the other. As is so often the case when Bills go too far, this is going to affect very adversely those who are either poor or of small means. For the rich, of course, it will have no effect whatsoever. If a man for his business, or a woman for her business, wants to raise money, either by mortgage or by a loan from the bank, there is probably no difficulty in raising money if they have a certain amount of means of their own of any kind other than the matrimonial home. So I do not think that this clause will affect any wife who may be deserted, if the persons concerned are pretty well off. As we all know, the solicitors of the two parties get together and come to some financial arrangement; and, anyhow, the hardship on such a wife is not so great as in the case of somebody with small means.
But what is the bank going to say when the only negotiable asset is the matrimonial home, whoever it belongs to, and where, perhaps, there is a one-man business, or a one-woman business, being carried on in the building, when the spouse who owns it goes to the bank for an overdraft to tide over a difficult period? Having looked at the reasons for wanting the overdraft, the bank will say, "Yes, but the only security you have is the matrimonial home and we cannot lend money unless we take priority over the other spouse's equitable interest". If the husband and wife are parting or are not getting on too well, the spouse who has to be asked to give his or her permission may well refuse. He or she may even indulge in a little marital blackmail and say "Yes, I will forgo that, provided you give me this, that or the other".
In the case of a newly-married couple wanting a mortgage on a house, will a building society, or anyone else, give a mortgage on the only property which is

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negotiable if it is not satisfied that it is going to take priority over the other spouse's interest? Of course not. Why should it? If a newly-married husband and wife register themselves separately, and the company giving the mortgage says, "I am sorry but you own the house. Your spouse's interest must be overcome", the couple are going to say, "Yes, but what is the point of this clause? It will not be operating".
I am not going to argue about whether this Amendment is correctly drafted. I will leave that to my noble and learned friends. But it will overcome one of the difficulties. For a comparatively small number of cases which may arise, which can, in fact, be largely protected by this Amendment—and, of course, eviction is protected under Clause 1—we are asked to upset the possibility of either spouse being able, in any circumstances, to deal with the matrimonial home without the permission of the other spouse. That does not seem to me sensible. It seems to me tousing a steam-hammer to crack a nut. I do not know what my noble and learned friends are going to do. I do not know if they are going to divide, but I should like to see them press this Amendment. If it needs alteration in its drafting, that can be done at the Report stage. But if they decide to divide, I will certainly go into the Lobby with them.
7.31 p.m.
LORD DENNING: This Amendment is certainly well supported, and it also follows the recommendation of the Royal Commission. But I venture to suggest that if it were accepted it would, in fact, take away a great deal of the protection which it seeks to afford to the deserted wife. It is all very well to say that Clause 1 protects her from eviction. Yes, it does—from eviction by her own husband. In the courts, we have always protected her against that: there is no question about it. The whole trouble has arisen because, under a recent decision of the House of Lords, the husband who owns a house and has it in his name, or who has the tenancy in his name, can immediately sell it to any purchaser. He can sell it to his new mistress, to his brother or to a friend; or he can even hand it over. And even though he knows all about the situation, that person can,
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under this recent decision, turn the wife out; and she has no answer whatsoever.
The mischief which this Bill seeks to remedy is to protect her from that purchaser, that person to whom the husband sells it. This proposed Amendment will destroy that protection altogether, because she will not get protection unless she has already gone to the court and got an order before the husband sells to his mistress, or whoever it may be. From long experience in the courts I can say that the wife does not go off to a solicitor at once. She stays at home waiting and hoping that her husband will return, or perhaps not knowing where he is.
What is he doing, meanwhile? If he is unscrupulous, he will sell it to a purchaser. She waits; and then, if this Amendment is right, she has to go to a lawyer. Then, as it is usually the poor widows, who have no money, who are involved, she has to get legalaid, and the lawyer has to apply to the court. After weeks, or it may be months, she gets an order, and for the first time she can then get a charge registered against the property. Meanwhile, of course, during all those months that have elapsed, any unscrupulous husband will have sold the property, will have transferred it to his new mistress or his relative, and indeed will not be bound at all. If this Amendment is accepted it will take away the whole object of the Bill, which is to protect the wife against the unscrupulous husband who sells the house over her head.
The only remaining thing I would say is that the fears about a young couple not being able to raise money are not supported in the least. It is mere speculation. One knows that building societies who advance money often like to have the names of both parties on it—one as a guarantor, if need be. As the building societies do not request it, I do not suggest that it would affect the loans one particle if the Bill as orginally drafted stands. As to all the conveyancing troubles—the cost of charges, the release and so on—I may say that many conveyancing points like these will have to be taken up, but in truth they are minor ones when one comes to consider them against the human problem which I think most of your Lordships would like to solve—namely, to protect the deserted

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wife against the husband who unscrupulously sells the matrimonial home. If the Bill remains in its present form, and the Amendment is not accepted, the wife will be protected.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Listening to my noble and learned friend Lord Denning, one might think it was a very common practice for husbands to sell the matrimonial home over the wife's head. The noble and learned Lord has had experience of a number of cases where husbands have behaved in that way, but I suggest to him that the number of such cases is, in fact, very small indeed; and particularly small when contrasted with the number of marriages which do not end up in separations or divorce. And even where there is a divorce or separation, the number of cases in which this kind of conduct has been perpetrated by the husband would be, I should have thought, a very small proportion of the whole.
Just because of that small number of cases the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, thinks it is necessary that, immediately after the marriage, the wife should run round to the Land Registrar's office and put a charge upon the register. I must say that that seems to me a very odd consequence. On Second Reading, my noble and learned friend said:
"I would recommend strongly that in future all wives, whenever their matrimonial home is bought in the husband's name, immediately, without waiting for any trouble to arise, should go and register their right in case in the future something should go wrong with the marriage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, VOL 275 (No. 20), col. 45; 14/6/66.]
What a picture that presents to my mind! Immediately after the wedding, before the reception, a call should be made at the Land Registrar's office and a charge immediately put on the register in case, in years to come, something may go wrong. I do not take that view; and, with great respect to my noble and learned friend, I think it is an exaggeration to suggest that the passage of this Amendment will deprive the deserted wife of protection.
I am with the noble Lady in saying that, where it is threatened, I want to
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see protection given to a woman to prevent her from being evicted from the house or denied the opportunity of getting back to it. As my noble and learned friend says, that protection can be given between the spouses, and the question comes with regard to third parties. The issue here between what is in the Bill and what is in the Amendment really is not what the noble Lady sought to suggest—nor, indeed, what my noble and learned friend sought to suggest. The scheme as devised by my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce does mean that the wife can get protection without first obtaining an order of the court. My noble and learned friend Lord Denning misunderstood it when he said that it would always be necessary to get an order of the court first. The whole purpose of this priority notice is that the charge can become effective for a time without its ever being brought before a court.
Now I myself do not mind whether it is a priority notice which stays in force one, two or three months; but this priority notice would lapse unless, within that period, there is an order of the count—and I myself think that that is right. I do not see why the threatened wife should be debarred from protection, if she is given those rights, despite the advice given by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and her supporter, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning. I think, in fact, few wives will go from the wedding to the Land Registry Office, the Land Charges Office, or whatever it is, to register the charge. I think in few wives will exercise that right at all. But the trouble is that, once that right is exercised, the charge is there, and will stay there.
I cannot speak with any great authority, and I do not intend to speak at any great length, about this, but I rest on the Royal Commission, which I have no doubt at all went into this matter with a very great deal of care. They said here—and I should like to remind your Lordships of their words:
"To give the deserted wife complete protection it would be necessary to give her a right as against all the world to stay on in the matrimonial home until ordered to leave by the court."

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That is what the noble Baroness seeks. The Report went on to say:
"The decisive objection to that course in our opinion is the unsatisfactory and insecure position in which it would place third parties. It would be necessary, for instance, for a would-be purchaser of a house or for an intending mortgagee to make full inquiries into the matrimonial circumstances of the owner before the transaction could be safely completed. On the other hand, to give the wife a right merely against the husband personally would be equally unsatisfactory."
I agree with that. Then they recommend a middle course. Our Amendment goes a little further than the middle course in seeking to provide protection.
It is a narrow issue but I believe that the noble Lady, as my noble friend, Lord Derwent said, is using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut by seeking to have this right imposed either from the moment of marriage or from the acquisition of the house or the passage of the Act, whichever is the latest. If it is on the acquisition of the house that the right bites, then, in the case of a married couple who are buying a new house, presumably this charge in favour of the spouse must rank before any mortgage which is entered into in relation to that new house. That seems to me to be a real difficulty. The hour is getting late. So far as I am concerned I do not wish to withdraw this Amendment: I should prefer to divide the Committee. But I hope that we may reach a conclusion on it fairly soon.
LORD HODSON: I will not detain the Committee very long, but as one of the wicked men who was a member of that section of your Lordships' House which came to the decision which my noble and learned friend Lord Denning dislikes so much, Ainsworth v. National Provincial Bank, I should like to underline two points, both of which I think have already been made. One is that this legislation that we are engaged on now is concerned with poor people, and one does not want to get lost with the idea that the poor wife is the only person we have to consider. We are dealing with poor people. The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, made the point that it is poor people who go to building societies and raise money with a charge on the house. They have no other security to give. It is going
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to be more difficult to raise money on houses if wives charge them prematurely.
This Amendment is intended only to delay the registration of a charge, which was recommended by, at any rate, some noble Lords in the Ainsworth case. I only ask noble Lords to remember that. Further, I would emphasise this—and I think this point has already been made. There are far more poor people seeking to borrow money on houses or to deal in houses that are charged than there are deserted wives. In the Ainsworth case, all the reported cases about deserted wives who sought to resist eviction or to protect their property or house against their husbands were trotted out before us. There were not many of them. My noble and learned friend Lord Denning moves us to tears every time he mentions a deserted wife, the poor woman he has been protecting in the Court of Appeal for years. But there are not many of them. Then he comes to this House and, in sepulchral tones, says, "When the House of Lords got the case of a bank, what did they do then? They protected the bank."
But let us not get our feet off the ground. We are not dealing with thousands and thousands of deserted wives. We are dealing with thousands and thousands of poor people who want to raise money on their houses or want to dispose of their houses, when perhaps a man has to move because his job has moved. I ask the Committee to support the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTON: I am well aware that I am sticking my neck out in saying anything on this subject. I will try to confine this speech to asking two questions. I am not a spouse, I am not a lawyer and I am not yet a wife or mother; but I will confess that nothing that has been said in the extremely formidable presentation of Lord Wilber-force's case has resolved a doubt I have had about this Amendment from the beginning. I think the expression was used by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, "using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut". I am not sure that that was not a pardonable exaggeration. But even if we used a croquet mallet, that is better than to use a coffee spoon and not to crack the nut.

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What I want to know is whether this Amendment provides the protection it sets out to provide? The point has been made that there are very few such cases. Of that I have no experience. I know that during the Second Reading debate, which I was unable to attend but which I read, it was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, that these cases were rare. It was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that they were not so rare. But there is one point on which I feel I have as much experience as any other noble Lord has. It is of how many of these cases there will be in the future. Perhaps I should have said that I have as little experience as any other noble Lord of this, because, of course, none of us knows how many there will be. If one is to make a protection, then surely one has to make a protection which will work in a number of cases.
One can make a comparison with an insurance policy where one has a great problem. For example, if I insure against a broken leg I may insure from the first moment I can. There is then the hideous possibility that I shall have to pay large sums of money in premiums all my life and get nothing out of it because at the age of 95 I shall not have broken my leg. That is unfortunate. But the other possibility is to wait until I am slipping down a slope in the Alps, hoping I can get some information about getting a policy. That is leaving it too late. That is an extreme example. One must fall somewhere between the two extremes.
My own feeling is that, although I am prepared to be moved to tears by the rights of mortgagees and the rights of all property owners, I am old-fashioned enough—and I do not want to shock the noble Lady by saying this—to believe that matrimony is a Divine state and a mortgage is not. If there is a choice between protecting a wife's rights to her home and protecting the property of a bank, or even of a private person, or their rights to exercise property by "fettering"—that is the word which was used—then one of the disadvantages of matrimony (and I speak as a non-spouse) is that surely matrimony does fetter you. One cannot have all the freedom in matrimony that one has without it. If one of the objects of matrimony is to
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preserve the rights of each spouse one cannot tell when this trouble will come.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, put it clearly during the Second Reading debate when he said, I think, that the purpose was to protect a limited class of people who are spouses deserted by the other spouse and left in precarious circumstances in a matrimonial home. I may be wrong; but I believe that was the expression he used. Of all those words a lawyer has infinitely more knowledge than I have of what is meant—except one, the word "precarious"; because I do not see how he can tell when a marriage is going to slip up. I would support what the noble Baroness has said: that these things are not always seen beforehand. A man who is a good man does not desert his wife and turn her out of the house. However, we are dealing with people who are not good husbands—or wives. I will not labour that point. So far, I have not been convinced that this Amendment does what it sets out to do.
LORD STRANGE: I should like to contribute an actual experience of this happening in real life. I do not say that I promise to be short; but I will say what I have to as quickly as I can. About seven years ago I came in contact with a man over the purchase of a house. I did not buy it, but I took a strong dislike to the man, for no particular reason—though I think the reason was that he wore a diamond ring when he was gardening, which I did not like. But this man rather haunted me, as he always wanted to sell me this house. I saw him at intervals; and I disliked him more because he would call me George, and my name is John. He had a faded wife, who must have been pretty some time back, and who had growing-up children. She was up in the forties. I suddenly heard that she had been found drinking in the local "pubs" and had taken to drink, and had a boy friend. I did not think she was the sort of woman who would have done that. She struck me as being a very respectable type of woman. The next thing I heard, through our local police, was that this man, the diamond ring man, had called them up in the middle of the night and said that his wife was trying to murder him. The police came and found this rather pathetic,

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faded woman beaten up black and blue all over, lying crying in a corner, rather drunk. All they could find on the man was a scratch on one hand which could have been self-inflicted.
The next piece of the story was that he went to our local pier and jumped off the edge of it at low tide. He stood with the water half-way up to his waist till somebody pulled him out. He said he was trying to commit suicide because his wife had treated him so badly. She had run away with another man and had treated him badly—she was living with another man in the village. Next he put himself in a mental asylum, and said that his wife had made him mad. Finally he managed to get a divorce against his wife, and she was turned out of the house without any money or any protection. If this Amendment were carried, and she had gone (and he had known that she had gone) to put in her claim for the house, I should not like to think what he would have done to her.
7.54 p.m.
LORD ILFORD: I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a moment. I can see the difficulty about registering a charge before anything has begun to go wrong with the marriage, but I think it is a difficulty which can be overcome simply. I am not very familiar with the procedure for registering priority notices—I do not think I was ever concerned in my life with a priority notice—but I imagine it is a relatively simple business, and I should have thought that the case of the noble Baroness would have been very well met if a priority notice was required to be given within, say, six months, or even twelve months. That would give the wife an opportunity of registering her priority notice and protecting her right at a time when she began to feel that the marriage was likely to go wrong. I propose to vote for the Amendment and to move an Amendment at the Report stage
providing for a longer period within which the priority notice could be registered.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): I suppose the Committee will expect the Government to express some view about this Amendment. I hope my noble friend Lady Summerskill will stick to her guns, because if this Amendment is passed it will deprive the wife of a large part of the benefit which this Bill is intended to give to her. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, has said that the Royal Commission anticipated that it would be necessary for would-be purchasers of houses to make inquiries into the matrimonial circumstances of the owner. It was precisely to avoid that that the contents of the present Bill which, after all, are really very simple, were devised. The wife has a charge from the start against everybody except a bona-fide purchaser for value, and she can obtain protection against him if she registers her charge before there is any such sale.
But if this Amendment is accepted, then, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, has said, if a man is going to leave his wife and children and go off with another woman, and he goes to a lawyer to ask what is his legal position, he will be told, "Well, give it to your mistress at once, or sell it at once". The main object in many circumstances which this Bill was intended to have will have been lost, for reasons which the noble and learned Lord, with all his experience, has so aptly described, very much better than I could have done. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will reject this Amendment.
7.58 p.m.
On Question, whether the Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:
Contents 10; Not-contents, 21.

CONTENTS

Derwent, L. [Teller.]

Hodson, L.

Merthyr, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Ilford, L.

Sandford, L.

Ferrers, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V. [Teller.]

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Grenfell, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Auckland, L.

Henderson, L.

Shepherd, L.

Barrington, V.

Iddesleigh, E.

Somers, L.

Champion, L.

Morris of Borth-y-Gest, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Denning, L. [Teller.]

Phillips, Bs.

Strange, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Plummer, Bs.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Falkland, V.

St. Just, L.

Summerskill, Bs. [Teller.]

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Sandys, L.

Wootton of Abinger, Bs.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: This is merely a drafting Amendment. As it stands, Clause 2(5) provides inter alia that a spouse's rights of occupation under Clause 1 shall cease to have effect where the other spouse makes a conveyance or assignment of his property to trustees for the benefit of his creditors generally. The conveyance or assignment may not, however, include the other spouse's interest in the matrimonial home. It may include, for instance, only his business assets or personal property. There is no reason why the rights of occupation under Clause 1 should come to an end in such circumstances. They should do so only where the matrimonial home is included in the assignment. The Amendment accordingly confines the operation of the provisions to cases where property conveyed or assigned includes the other spouse's interest in the matrimonial home. I beg to move.
Amendment moved-—
Page 4, line 5, after ("property") insert ("(including that estate or interest)").—(Baroness Summerskill.)
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved, in subsection (5), to leave out all words after "notwithstanding" and to insert instead:
"that it is registered in accordance with the following provisions of this section, the charge shall be void against the trustee in bankruptcy, the trustees under the conveyance or assignment or the personal representatives of the deceased spouse, as the case may be."
The noble Baroness said: This Amendment gives effect to the suggestion made on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Wilberforce—an excellent suggestion, and I am sorry that he is not here to hear my congratulations. He said that a spouse's rights of occupation should not come to a complete end on the other
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spouse's insolvency, if the termination of her rights is not necessary in order that the creditors may be satisfied. Clause 2(5) provides that, notwithstanding any order under Clause 1, a spouse's rights of occupation shall cease to have effect where the other spouse
"is adjudged bankrupt or makes a conveyance or assignment of his or her property to trustees for the benefit of his or her creditors generally; or
(b) dies and his or her estate is insolvent."
The object of that provision is to ensure that a wife, for example, cannot continue to reside in her husband's house at the expense of the creditors, if he becomes insolvent. As the noble Lord, Lord Wilberforce, pointed out, however, it may not be necessary to have recourse to selling the house in order to satisfy the creditors. The wife's rights ought only to determine where the trustee or personal representative wants to sell the property with vacant possession. If they have no need to do so and the husband's estate is wound up without the property being sold, the wife's rights ought to remain unimpaired.
The Amendment accordingly provides that, in the circumstances set out in paragraphs (a) and (b), the charge in respect of the occupying spouse's rights of occupation shall be void only against the trustee in bankruptcy, the trustees under conveyance or assignment or the personal representative of the other spouse, as the case may be. The Amendment does not provide that the charge is to be void against the trustee notwithstanding any order under Clause 1. These words are unnecessary, even in Clause 2(5) as it stands, because, by virtue of Clause 2(3), an order under Clause 1 has effect against persons deriving title under the rights of the wife only when they are affected by the other spouse's charge. Again I apologise to your Lordships for being so technical, but I am sure that your Lordships realise that in a technical Bill of

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this kind, I must explain these technicalities in words which are understood by the legal profession. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 8, leave out from ("notwithstanding") to end of line 10 and insert the said new words.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.
House resumed. Bill reported with Amendments.

LAND REGISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
8.9 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint theHouse that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration Bill, has consented to place Her interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3a; an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at ten minutes past eight o'clock.