Sitting of 7 July 1966

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  EXETER CORPORATION BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
GREATER LONDON COUNCIL GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

    National Plan
    Mr. Biffenasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when he will publish the revised National Plan; and if he will imediately revise and publish an amended Chapter 6 on Prices and Incomes.
    The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. George Brown): The review of progress under the National Plan which is now in train is expected to be published before the end of the year. The answer to the second part of the Question is, No, Sir.
    Mr. Biffen: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that when the National Plan is revised and republished it will include a revised figure of the expected gross national product for 1970? As to the second part of my Question, would not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable that an instant revision should take place of Chapter 6 on Prices and Incomes so that we can have that before us when we discuss the prices legislation?
    Mr. Brown: On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I have other Questions on the subject to answer later on. On the second part, I have already answered, No, Sir.
    Mr. Martenasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will publish a progress report on the National Plan on the completion of each year.
    Mr. Albu: I have nothing to add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dickens) on Thursday, 30th June.
    Mr. Marten: If the autumnal review which we are to have reveals, for example, that part of the plan is unattainable, will the plan itself be altered?
    Mr. Albu: We shall, of course, reconsider the plan, but not this year. Next year we will probably reconsider the whole of the plan but, as my right hon. Friend said, we intend to make a review of the progress of the plan as far as it has gone.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Why cannot the Minister and his right hon. Friend be honest—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and admit that the National Plan, like the incomes policy, has just become one more discredited piece of camouflage to mask the fact that the Government are totally unable to manage the economy?
    Mr. Albu: Judging from the discussions that take place in the N.E.D.C., that does not appear to be the view of industry.

    Incomes Policy
    Mr. Biffenasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what proposals he has to align the incomes norm with the current and expected increases in national output.
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what further steps he now proposes to take to create an effective incomes policy, in view of recent decisions which run counter to it.
    Mr. David Howellasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State

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    for Economic Affairs, in view of the numerous wage settlements which continue to be made in excess of the guiding light, what steps he proposes to take to re-design that policy.
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will seek to call a meeting of representatives of trade unions and employers to discuss the incomes policy.
    Mr. George Brown: It is a matter of urgency for the nation to strengthen the effectiveness of the policy. We are taking every opportunity to urge this on all sections of the nation and to develop the policy in consultation with trade unions and employers.
    Mr. Biffen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that in no sense answers Question No. 2? Can he say whether the recorded progress of the gross domestic product and its expected course over the next 12 months justifies a norm of 3 to 3½ per cent., and if not, what is he doing about it?
    Mr. Brown: I have answered that earlier, but on this one I think that my Answer was probably better than the Question.
    Mr. Howell: Surely the right hon. Gentleman must realise that it is a natural and normal thing for the trade unions to press for higher wages? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be better to concentrate our energies on reforming the wage structure rather than trying to freeze wages and hit the trade unions on the head?
    Mr. Brown: If it were as simple as that, it would have been settled under previous Governments. But it is not as simple as that, nor are we trying to freeze wages. What we are trying to ensure—and I would have thought that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen would have seen the point of this—is that personal incomes rise at a rate no greater than the rise in our national productivity.
    Mr. Mills: With regard to Question No. 37, as it is obvious that the Declaration of Intent has been somewhat superseded, will the right hon. Gentleman consider calling another meeting of trade unionists and employers to consider the
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    former declaration and see whether it can be brought up to date?
    Mr. Brown: I thought that the hon. Gentleman's was the best Question of the four. That is why I said that we were developing the policy in consultation with trade unions and employers.
    Mr. Haseldine: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that instead of trying to fix artificial levels for wages and salaries, which is bound to lead to the continuing stagnation of the economy, he would be better advised to try introducing incentives to the economy which will lead to increases in personal earnings and, therefore, faster growth in the economy?
    Mr. Brown: Nobody is trying to establish an artificial level. The hon. Gentleman must surely at some stage get the point that if we take out by way of personal incomes more than we are together putting in by way of effort inflation is the answer. This is what I am trying to establish. As for the last part, I think that the hon. Gentleman was nearer the mark.
    Mr. Mawby: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we all agree with him on his last thesis? But would it not be better for him to concentrate more upon increasing national output rather than trying to restrict the amount of money which people should take out at the present low rise in national output?
    Mr. Brown: These things cannot be divorced in that way. We are, in a variety of ways and through the whole gamut of our economic policies, trying to stimulate industry—which means management as well as workers—to increase output and productivity. While we are getting that we cannot dodge the fact that we must try to keep outgoings in accord with input.
    Mr. Hordernasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he is satisfied that the present figure of 3 to 3½ per cent. as the norm is still appropriate; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Goodhartasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs how long he will continue to recommend 3½ per cent. as the

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    median figure for wage and salary increase in the public and private sectors; and when a new guiding light figure will be announced.
    Mr. George Brown: Yes, Sir. But the norm will continue to be kept under review in the light of the general behaviour of national productivity.
    Mr. Hordern: Surely the right hon. Gentleman must have some idea of the state of the economy now? Does he not think that the norm should be either increased to reflect the rapid rise in earnings or decreased to reflect the depressing record of productivity?
    Mr. Brown: When one is dealing with questions of this kind I do not think that that kind of black and white approach is necessarily very good.
    Mr. Goodhart: In view of the large number of failures to maintain the norm in recent wage negotiations, does the right hon. Gentleman intend to have formal consultations with any trade union leaders before a new norm is announced?
    Mr. Brown: When I also consider, as the hon. Gentleman apparently does not, the number of great successes which we have had I get a balanced picture.
    Mr. Higgins: What would the norm be on the basis of the National Institute for Economics and Social Research forecast?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps happily, the National Institute is not responsible for the nation's economy.
    Mr. Whitaker: Would my right hon. Friend tell us what plans he has for bringing professional and salaried earnings within the same norm?
    Mr. Brown: All incomes of all kinds are, of course, within the norm. This is something which we apply or try to get applied to the rise in the totality of incomes. We have provided, in paragraph 15 of the White Paper, with which my hon. Friend is very familiar, for the exceptional cases. To the extent to which people do not observe that, they are increasing the problems facing the nation and increasing the inflationary pressures on themselves. The principle applies to every possible personal income.

    Prices and Wage Increases (Industrial Contracts)
    Mr. Patrick Jenkinasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will make a further statement on the extent to which the Government have now reviewed with industry the use of clauses providing for the automatic adjustment of prices to wage increases in contracts for printing, and for other goods and services; with what industries; in relation to what goods and services; and with what result.
    The Minister of State, Department of Economic Affairs (Mr. Austen Albu): I have nothing to add to the answer given on 5th May by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to a similar Question by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Jenkin: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that this is a deplorable state of affairs? Does not he recognise, also, that this will develop into a pattern as one Ministry after another refuses to take any action in response to the recommendations made by the Prices and Incomes Board? If the Minister of State's own Ministry does this, what possibility is there of anybody else paying any attention to the Board's recommendations?
    Mr. Albu: The hon. Member is wrong. We are taking immediate action in this matter. It is a very complicated subject, and it concerns other industries besides the printing industry. The C.B.I. is already discussing the matter, and we shall be having discussions with it on the subject.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Kershawasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs which little National Economic Development Councils he has instructed to take into account the possibility of the United Kingdom joining the Common Market; and in what terms.
    Mr. George Brown: None, Sir.
    Mr. Kershaw: Is not this very deplorable? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the absence of any instructions in this regard shows that his protestations about wishing to get into Europe are so much humbug?
    Mr. Brown: I am sure that the hon. Member feels better after that. The answer to his Question is that the E.D.Cs have enough on their plates in trying to improve our industrial performance at home, and by doing that they will achieve what I think the hon. Member is after.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what recent soundings he has made in European capitals with regard to the United Kingdom joining the Common Market; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will make a statement on his efforts to promote closer economic links with the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Worsleyasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs with which of the member countries of the European Economic Community he is now conducting soundings with a view to a British application for membership of the European Economic Community.
    Mr. George Brown: Together with my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster I am taking every opportunity through international contacts of all kinds to explore the circumstances in which we might join the Community.
    Mr. Ridley: Since it is the right hon. Gentleman's policy to try to join the Community if possible, can he say why so many of the Government's actions appear to be running counter to what we should be doing if we wish to fit ourselves into the Community?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot think of any.
    Mr. Griffiths: Can the right hon. Gentleman comment on the German Government's suggestion that it is time to get down to the details of negotiating Britain's entry? In view of the fact that 80 of his hon. Friends signed an anti-Common Market Resolution, 72 signed a pro-Common Market Resolution, and one signed both, will not he finally get off the fence and tell us on which side the Government are?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot get off a fence that is facing three ways. If the normal Opposition practice is being copied by my hon. Friends I would certainly regret it. As for the question, I very much welcome what the German Foreign Secretary had to say, and have taken it into account.
    Mr. Worsley: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his answer this afternoon has increased the impression that this is not regarded as a matter of urgency by Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Brown: It has increased it only in those quarters—among which I am sorry to see the hon. Member—which want to have that impression.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be a good thing to have a debate on our relations with European organisations of which we are already a member? Will he try to persuade the Leader of the House to allow us time to discuss the work of the Council of Europe?
    Mr. Brown: I will not go so far as to try to persuade my right hon. Friend because I have enough trouble as it is, but I shall certainly convey to him the observations of my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend remind hon. Members opposite and some hon. Members on this side of the House that we are not prepared to enter the Common Market unconditionally? Does he appreciate that on no account should we allow ourselves to be pitchforked into the Common Market by people who have axes to grind?
    Mr. Brown: I can truthfully say that I have never ground an axe in my life. But I am very clear that not one of the present members of the European Economic Community entered it unconditionally, and I have no intention that Britain should do this.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Because most of us, unlike the right hon. Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell), wish to see progress in this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us, in particular, whether the communiqué—if there is to be one—at the end of M. Pompidou's visit will include a specific reference to the discussions that have taken place between the two Governments on this matter?
    Mr. Brown: As we are currently about half-way through the discussions, it would obviously be absurd for me to say now what communiqué will be issued at the end of them.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will give details of the official representations he has received from the European Economic Community of countries regarding the incompatibility of the premiums payable under the Selective Employment Payments Bill with the Treaty of Rome.
    Mr. George Brown: No such representations have been received.
    Mr. Ridley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these premiums are clearly in contravention of Article 85(1)(d) of the Treaty of Rome? The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not know of any example of his actions contravening the Treaty of Rome. Will he admit this one and take steps to make sure that the offensive parts of this tax are removed in order to facilitate our joining the Common Market?
    Mr. Brown: The Question asked whether I had received from the Community any representations and the answer, truthfully, is "None". I gather that he is now making one.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what assurances he has given in the course of his soundings of Continental European Governments with a view to possible British membership of the Common Market, regarding the replacement of the import surcharge by import quotas.
    Mr. George Brown: None, Sir; no such assurances have been sought.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the imposition of import controls will have the most disastrous effect upon our possible entry into the Common Market? Will he, therefore, renounce this possibility on behalf of Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Brown: I do not have to renounce the possibility, which is only a gleam in the eye of the hon. Member.
    Sir C. Osborne: When the import surcharges are taken off in November, does not the right hon. Gentleman expect a flood of imports? If so, what action will the Government take to deal with it?
    Mr. Brown: That is not profitable to examine in public, but I would remind the hon. Member of what has been said by the Government on previous occasions, which is that while we cannot give a hard and fast undertaking of indefinite duration not to take direct alternative measures if the balance of payments once again deteriorates seriously, Her Majesty's Government do not intend to replace the import charge by any other measure directed to import restriction when the charge expires in November. This has been said several times, and not only in the House. That is what I said at Bergen, and that is as far as I am going to go.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will list the various obstacles to the United Kingdom joining the European Economic Community and Her Majesty's Government's proposals for overcoming them.
    Mr. George Brown: There are a number of problems, the most important of which were contained in the list by Mr. Gaitskell in 1962. All are being studied, but we are not yet at the stage of making proposals.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Is not there now a new problem which is much exercising the minds of the members of the Community, namely, the state of sterling? Will he nevertheless consider making a list of these obstacles, including the new one, and his proposals for overcoming them?
    Mr. Brown: No. I do not think that there is any point in making such a list, and I do not think that the hon. and learned Member is helping the nation with the twist that he has put into his question.
    Mr. Sandys: I do not wish to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman in his talks, but will he consider the possibility of making a very full statement on the results of his soundings about the obstacles which he sees, and the results of his talks with other Governments about those obstacles?
    Mr. Brown: Yes, there will come a point at which we ought to explain to the House what the situation is. I was asked about this earlier by another hon. Member. I do not think that we are at that stage now, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman—an old friend of mine—not to embarrass me by distinguishing me from my other hon. Friends whom he embarrasses from time to time.
    Lord Balniel: The right hon. Gentleman asked not to be distinguished from his right hon. Friends, but surely it would be preferable, instead of having a whole series of disconnected Ministerial statements when they are abroad and out of sight of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), that the Prime Minister should come here and make a coherent statement of his desire to enter the European Economic Community?
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Brown: That was a very noble effort and worth a cheer or two. In fact, the speeches made have all been published here and copies have been placed in the Library. If the hon. Gentleman is capable of coherent reading, they are all there for him to read.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would my right hon. Friend realise that nobody on this side—certainly not I—seeks to embarrass him in any way, but that the one thing which some of us are trying to prevent is any embarrassment to the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Brown: My right hon. Friend may take it from me that that certainly cannot happen and that I did not include him in the strictures which I passed on the party opposite.
    Sir T. Beamishasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what consideration he has given to the likely effect on the prices and incomes policy of the mobility of labour that would result from joining the European Economic Community; and if he will discuss this question with the Trades Union Congress General Council and with the Confederation of British Industry.
    Mr. George Brown: This among other aspects of policy is of course under continuous study. We shall most certainly consult with the Trades Union Congress,
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    the Confederation of British Industry and other interested parties whenever it is appropriate.
    Sir T. Beamish: Since joining the Common Market would inevitably have a profound effect not only on the prices and incomes policy but on the National Plan, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply to this and earlier Questions inevitably leaves the House with the feeling that the Government are halfhearted about joining the Common Market?
    Mr. Brown: I see no reason for that, except that hon. Gentlemen came in with that in their minds. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman would look at the Treaty of Rome, he would see that there is nothing in that whatever, however applied, which could possibly affect what we are doing here.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what conclusions he has drawn, following his soundings of European Governments with a view to possible British membership of the European Economic Community, regarding the effect on British sovereignty of signature of the Treaty of Rome.
    Mr. George Brown: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 19th May in reply to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell).
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Would the First Secretary not agree that the restraints on our national sovereignty which would flow from membership of the Common Market are certainly as nothing compared to those which the Government have already accepted as the price of dependence on regular "dollops" of foreign credit?
    Hon. Members: Dollops?
    Mr. Brown: I think that the elegance of the language is an elegant commentary in itself on the coherence of the question.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that French sovereignty has been adversely affected by membership of the European Economic Community?
    Mr. Brown: It would be hard to draw that conclusion.
    Sir T. Beamishasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will propose the setting up of a joint working party to the Governments of the member countries of the European Economic Community to consider the degree of nationalisation of the United Kingdom economy that would be regarded as consistent with the spirit and the letter of the Treaty of Rome and the Treaty of Paris.
    Mr. George Brown: No, Sir.
    Sir T. Beamish: Since the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange is obviously contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Treaty of Rome, am I right in thinking from that reply that the right hon. Gentleman has had a great victory and persuaded his party secretly to drop Clause Four?
    Mr. Brown: I have many victories, and most are very public. But if the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that he is helping affairs by trying to draw a conclusion that no country should be a member of the E.E.C. if it had nationalised anything, I wonder which country he thinks would belong to it at present.
    Mr. Ridley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in order to implement the Government's policy of taking the country into Europe it is necessary to educate, guide and help the country to accept this? Can he say why he has done so little about this in the two years he has held his present office?
    Mr. Brown: If I have not done enough to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, I will have another look at my programme.
    Mr. Worsleyasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when Her Majesty's Government now expect to make a formal application to join the European Economic Community.
    Mr. George Brown: That will depend on the outcome of the exploratory discussions that are now proceeding.
    Mr. Worsley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy is reported
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    to have talked of an extended period of exploration? Will he now give a serious and clear statement that he at least regards this as a matter of urgency?
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Gentleman will do himself the privilege of going to read the speech of my right hon. Friend, which is in the Library, he will see that he is drawing a wrong conclusion from it.
    Mr. Molloy: Will my right hon. Friend give the House and the country an assurance that his examinations will go beyond the E.E.C. and involve Europe as a whole? Will he also assure the House and the country that what he is doing will be for the benefit of the nation and will be a proper study in depth and not an emotive rushing in as proposed by the party opposite?
    Mr. Brown: It is clear that all I do is for the benefit of the nation. On the first part of the question—yes, we shall study this matter and we are doing so. That is why we are now conducting the probing exercise, and we shall, of course, make a balanced decision in the end. It will inevitably be a balance between one set of factors and another.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Would the right hon. Gentleman recognise that he has been asked many Questions on the E.E.C. today and has not given a single serious answer to one of them? Would he recognise that, in view of the special responsibilities which have been put on him, he owes a duty to the whole House now to explain in debate exactly what his and the Government's attitude is to this most important question?
    Mr. Brown: I recognise that supplementary question. Indeed, I remember putting it to the right hon. Gentleman when our positions were reversed. That is normal practice. He knows very well, just as I do, that at this stage the kind of emotive things which he and his hon. Friends are trying to get out of me are exactly the sort of things which a Minister should not say.
    Mr. Macleod: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that I did not ask for an emotive approach but for a cool and reasoned statement from him as to whether he is or is not discharging his duties?
    Mr. Brown: There is no glory to be got out of that sort of question. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that a few moments ago when one of his right hon. Friends asked me a similar question—I think it was the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) who asked the question; he is nearly always first I said that the point would arise when one ought to have a debate or discussion about the situation which we had reached. I went on to say that, in the exercise of my duties, I did not regard this as that moment.
    Mr. Ridley: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the end of the Session.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what progress he has now made in his analysis and inquiry into the problems involved in economic negotiations concerning Great Britain's entry into the Common Market.
    Mr. George Brown: A considerable amount of work is now in progress.
    Mr. Taylor: As our entry into the Common Market would require major changes in the practices and performance of British industry, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it would help to publish at some stage the broad conclusions of this inquiry?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman said "at some stage". I have answered this question already. This must be the fourth time this afternoon that I have said that I do not regard this to be the lime to do that. The Government, unlike their Conservative predecessors, are going about this in the right way by having the right kind of study done.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure that no parts of the regional policy of Her Majesty's Government would conflict with obligations entered into by subscribing to the Treaty of Rome.
    Mr. George Brown: This is one aspect of the general question of our possible entry into the E.E.C. which we have very much in mind.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Does that reply mean that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with some of his right hon. and hon. Friends that there is some conflict in the matter? If he does not agree with them, would he say so quite clearly, because at the moment it is damaging our chances of making an early entry?
    Mr. Brown: I do not accept the last part of the hon. and learned Member's supplementary question; I am not called upon to deal with the middle part, and, on the first part, my view is that there is no conflict between the Treaty of Rome and our regional policies, but it is an aspect of the whole problem that we have in mind.

    Management
    Mr. Moonmanasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what inquiries are at present being undertaken by the National Economic Development Council in following up Management Recruitment and Development, published in February, 1965.
    Mr. Albu: No general inquiries are being made at present by the National Economic Development Council, but several of the Economic Development Committees are giving special attention to questions of management education, development and techniques.
    Mr. Moonman: Although I appreciate that statement, would my hon. Friend consider that industrial efficiency may be stimulated by rather more managerial development? Would he not consider the possibility of regional surveys as well as industrial surveys?
    Mr. Albu: What my hon. Friend says is correct. We are making further studies of the availability of management education throughout the country.

    Professional Footballers (Signing-On Payments)
    Mr. William Priceasked the First Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will ask the National Board for Prices and Incomes to investigate the signing-on payments now being made to professional footballers.
    Mr. Albu: No. But I expect that this would be one of the matters which will

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    be looked at by the Committee to inquire into the state of association football which my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Education and Science, announced on 23rd June had been set up.
    Mr. Price: Is my right hon. Friend aware that certain professional footballers are indulging in a form of blackmail? Does he know that they are demanding huge tax-free sums in addition to their wages before signing new contracts? Does he appreciate that the payments are concealed in general accounts, that as a result admission charges are going up, and that the clubs are blaming the Selective Employment Tax?
    Mr. Albu: We are aware of most of those things, but it would be preferable to allow the Committee which has been set up to consider all the aspects of football rather than just this one. We hope that the Committee will take into account the prices and incomes policy when it does so.

    Dividends
    Mr. John Leeasked the First Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he is satisfied that the machinery of the National Board for Prices and Incomes is adequate to scrutinise all annual and interim dividend declarations made by public companies and if he will in future refer all such declarations to the Board.
    Mr. George Brown: I have no reason to think that the Board will be unable to deal with any references which are made to it.

    Seamen's Strike (Production Losses)
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what is the estimated value of industrial production lost in consequence of the seamen's strike; and how many man-days have been lost due to lay-offs.
    Mr. Albu: I cannot express the loss in industrial production in figures, but for the country as a whole it has been relatively small.
    Mr. Clark: May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it might be worth while to take some pains to find out this figure
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    and publicise it because of the considerable damage that was caused to the nation?
    Mr. Albu: The Question the hon. Gentleman asked was about industrial production, and I answered that. However, the effect on the economy has been quite serious from the point of view of our inability to keep to export delivery dates and so on, and nobody would deny that.

    Productivity and Dividends
    Mr. Dickensasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will state the percentage increase in productivity and dividend distribution since 16th October, 1964.
    Mr. Albu: Figures for this precise period are not available. Total output per head of the employed population is estimated to have been 1½ per cent. higher in 1965 than in 1964. Dividends paid on ordinary and preference shares were 8 per cent. higher in the fourth quarter of 1965 than in the fourth quarter of 1964.
    Mr. Dickens: Is my hon. Friend aware that this steep rise in unearned income is unexampled in any other European country over this period? Is he further aware that while many of my hon. Friends warmly welcome the inclusion of unearned income in the forthcoming Prices and Incomes Bill, stringent penalties should be imposed in future on those who seek to increase their unearned income in this way?
    Mr. Albu: I understand my hon. Friend's feelings in this matter, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer commented on this during the Budget debate. It may be of some consolation to my hon. Friend to know that as the rise in profits is now stopping, I doubt if the rise in dividends can go on at the same level.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that not many weeks ago his hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell), as chairman of a large public company, massively increased his dividend? Does he propose to bring him before the Prices and Incomes Board?
    Mr. Albu: That seems to be a personal attack of which I am sure the hon. Gentleman did not give my hon. Friend prior notice.

    Severnside and Humberside (Studies)
    Mr. James Johnsonasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will now begin detailed studies of the Humberside area with the object of designating a new town.
    Mr. Wallasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will make a statement on the development of the Humberside Region.
    Mr. George Brown: I apologise for the length of this reply. The review of long-term population trends dealt with in the National Plan is not yet completed, but it is clear that some part of the expected population increase will need to be accommodated in new centres, which for reasons of economic and physical planning must be large. The Government are, therefore, putting in hand a detailed study of the Humberside area, which will be undertaken by a new central planning unit within D.E.A. but drawing also on the resources of other departments.
    Subject to the outcome of that study, the aim is to enable development to proceed as rapidly as possible. Severn-side and the Dundee area are other areas already identified for early study. In the continuing work, full account will be taken of the views of the Regional Economic Planning Councils, which will also be consulted on the detailed studies of particular areas.
    Mr. Johnson: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that long and significant statement, which will certainly please the people on Humberside, may I emphasise to him the urgency of the matter and the need to get the correct decision on this issue, particularly regarding the building of a bridge over the Humber? Would he not agree that this is the most significant thing on Humberside and that it is vital for the optimum development of the area?
    Mr. Brown: It is also important and urgent that we should have the study
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    made, take all considerations into account and get to the point of making a decision. That I accept.
    Mr. Wall: While welcoming receipt of the first positive Answer from the right hon. Gentleman today, may I ask him if he does not agree that his statement makes the Humber Bridge an absolute essential? Would he not also agree that it means that reconsideration of the route of the east-west communication, as advocated by the local authorities, is also essential?
    Mr. Brown: It is important that the views of hon. Members should be on the record, but I do not think that I should comment further than I did in my Answer.
    Mr. George Jeger: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the consideration which has been given to the formation of a new centre on Humberside is welcomed, but is that disregarding entirely the possible expansion of existing smaller centres, such as the one I represent on Humberside, which need as great an expansion of transport to make them viable?
    Mr. Brown: If my hon. Friend tables a Question on that subject I will look into it. If one is to provide for this expansion in a relevant and intelligent way, one must take into account the physical as well as the economic requirements. One is, therefore, forced to the conclusion that this must take place in new, large centres.
    Mr. Tapsell: In view of the emphatic assurances we were given by the Minister of Transport about the Humber Bridge at the time of the Hull, North by-election, how is it that this has now become so vague?
    Mr. Brown: Whatever else might be said about my Answer, it cannot be said that it was vague. The Question does not deal with the Humber Bridge. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wishes to table a Question on that subject.
    Mr. McNamara: Is my right hon. Friend aware of how much we welcomed that statement about the Humber Bridge at the time of the Hull, North by-election? What discussions does my right hon. Friend propose to have with

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    the local authorities in the area and when does he expect that we will receive the feasibility report?
    Mr. Brown: Let us first get the thing under way, which is what we are now doing. I assure my hon. Friend that the fullest consultations will take place, not only with the regional but also with the local bodies.

    Short Bros. and Harland
    Mr. McMasterasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what are the Government's plans for diversification of production at the factories of Short Brothers and Harland; and what steps he is taking to expedite an early build up of employment on the projects recommended by Sir Matthew Slattery and Mr. Derek Palmer, following their examination of various propositions on behalf of the Government made at the beginning of this year.
    Mr. George Brown: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we and the Northern Ireland Government are working closely together on this problem. Some firm plans have already been announced. Others will, I hope, follow soon.
    Mr. McMaster: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, so far as it goes. Since the Minister of Aviation recently forecast that 4,000 men would be laid off in under 18 months, would the right hon. Gentleman do all he can to make new lines of production at these factories and new industries available so that the skilled manpower which exists is not wasted?
    Mr. Brown: Those in Northern Ireland who know me—and there are many of them in all parts of industry and Government—know that I do not need that prodding. Only recently I saw an important delegation or group of people from Northern Ireland, accompanied by the Minister of Commerce, and we went into all these details. We are working them out to the best of our ability to see that Northern Ireland does not suffer, because I regard that area as one of the parts of this country which can contribute very greatly to the increased output which we so badly need.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: What steps are the Government taking to implement the undertaking given by the Conservative Government to maintain employment at Shorts until 1970?
    Mr. Brown: The Conservative Government were wonderful at giving undertakings but very poor in putting them into practice.
    Mr. McMaster: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Incomes and Wages
    Mr. Tapsellasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether it is still Her Majesty's Government's policy to restrict rises in incomes and wages within the limits of the rise in production.
    Mr. George Brown: Her Majesty's Government are determined to ensure that the rise in incomes is related to the growth of real national output, in order that there shall be a real rise in living standards.
    Mr. Tapsell: While we are on the topic of undertakings, will the First Secretary of State explain why it is that when in opposition his emphasis was all on expansion of production and is now all on restriction of incomes?
    Mr. Brown: For the fourth time, perhaps, I may repeat the answer to the same foolish question—[Hon. Members: "Oh."]—I am not, and the Government are not, trying to restrict the rise in incomes. We are trying to ensure, and we are entitled to more help than we are getting from the other side—[Interruption.]—let hon. Gentlemen speak for themselves. We are trying to ensure, and we are entitled to more help than we are getting from the Conservative Party, that the rise in incomes is related to the rise in productivity.
    Mr. Ridsdale: As the right hon. Gentleman has given no clear answers to any of our Questions this afternoon, can he say when his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to introduce another Budget?
    Mr. Hogg: Would the right hon. Gentleman accept that he would be more persuasive in his attempts to get help if he were less consistently offensive and frivolous?
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    Mr. Brown: Some questions it is better for other people to put.

    East Anglia Planning Council
    Dr. Grayasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs why the constituency of Yarmouth, comprising the county borough of Great Yarmouth and the Blofield and Flegg Rural District Councils, is not represented on the East Anglia Planning Council.
    Mr. Albu: The members of the East Anglia Economic Planning Council, like members of councils in other regions, have been appointed as individuals and not as representatives of particular places or interests.
    Dr. Gray: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is deep alarm in both of these areas it case planning decisions are taken without first-hand advice from a resident who comes from the areas? Will he bear the territorial factor in mind when making replacements on the council or nominating new members to it?
    Mr. Albu: I can assure my hon. Friend that whether or not there is a representative on the council of a particular place, there is full opportunity for all representations to be made and for everything to be taken into consideration by the council.

    Industrial Reorganisation Corporation
    Mr. Norwoodasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will now give a date for the publication of the Bill to set up the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation.
    Mr. George Brown: I expect the Bill to be published next week.
    Mr. Norwood: May I inform my right hon. Friend, as he already knows, that this information gives a great deal of satisfaction to those concerned with this subject?

  BOARD OF TRADE Company Law (Reform)
  Mr. Patrick Jenkinasked the President of the Board of Trade what consultations he intends to hold with representatives of industry, the professions and financial institutions on his proposals for reforming company law.
  The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. George Darling): The proposals will be drawn up in the light of the Report of the Jenkins Committee which took evidence from representative associations. I am ready to undertake further consultations with such associations where appropriate, but I cannot yet indicate what these consultations will be.
  Mr. Jenkin: Will the Minister of State recognise that there has been a considerable change in the view on many matters on which Jenkins reported since the date of that Report; and that it would be highly desirable before further company legislation was introduced that the most widespread consultation should take place?
  Mr. Darling: Yes, Sir. It is perfectly true, and, of course, since the Bill was published representations have been made to us which we are taking into consideration.

  BRITISH IRON AND STEEL FEDERATION (PROPOSALS)
  Sir C. Osborneasked the Prime Minister why he rejected the proposals put to him by the British Iron and Steel Federation for a new statutory authority with wide ranging control over the industry, and state shareholdings in the major undertakings; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given on 21st June by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power to a Question by the hon. Member for Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn).
  Sir C. Osborne: Will the Prime Minister tell the House what precise detailed parts of the Federation's plans he considered were against the national interest and so caused him to reject them?

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  If there was none, why did he reject the proposals altogether?
  The Prime Minister: The Answer by my right hon. Friend to which I have referred gave reasons, not in detail but in general terms, why it was not possible to accept these recommendations, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will hear this subject argued in greater detail when the Bill is debated in the House.
  Mr. O'Malley: Is it not significant that the B.I.S.F. proposals for the reorganisation of the industry have only come in May and June of this year, whereas it has never previously condemned the serious consequences of the 1953 Act; that the Rationalisation Committee has still not reported; and that proposals for changes in the pricing system came only after the condemnation of the Restrictive Practices Court?
  Mr. Barber: Will the Prime Minister just for once give a straight answer to a simple question? [Interruption.] Is it the Government's position that they are not prepared to consider any compromise which does not involve outright nationalisation of 90 per cent. of the production of the industry?
  The Prime Minister: We have made clear all along—in the White Paper last year and in the Answer I have just quoted—and it is not my fault if the right hon. Gentleman cannot read it—that a partial solution on these lines would not secure the necessary reorganisation of the industry and would be monstrously unfair to the minority shareholders.

  NUCLEAR DETERRENT
  Mr. Blakerasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the arrangements for co-ordinating policy between the Ministers responsible for carrying out the policy of collectivising the nuclear deterrent; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Blaker: Since we have obligations to Commonwealth countries in Asia and Australasia, does not the Prime Minister agree that it would be unwise to commit all our Polaris submarines to the Atlantic Force?
  The Prime Minister: The Polaris submarines, when they were ordered and the arrangements were made, were designated for use in Europe. The Atlantic Nuclear Force relates to them, but, as the hon. Member will be aware, I have said that there is a very serious problem about nuclear guarantees in Asia which also needs to be dealt with on a collective basis.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman says that they were designated for use in Europe, but, of course, the last Government always kept the right to withdraw these weapons should we wish to do so. Would it not be wise to keep some flexibility in the arrangements so that, if necessary, in future years we would be able to transfer them to the Far East?
  The Prime Minister: I was not referring, to the right to withdraw from N.A.T.O. but to the fact that the whole plan in terms of production and depot ships was related to use in Europe and not to use in Asia.

  NATIONAL UNION OF SEAMEN (EXECUTIVE COUNCIL)
  Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Prime Minister whether he will name the persons who have been bringing pressure to bear on the executive of the seamen's union; and what action he will take to deal with the problem.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the speeches I made in the House on the 28th of June.
  Mr. Lewis: Is the Prime Minister aware that he gave the names in a very dramatic statement and my Question was put down before that? What action does he now propose to take? He has not answered the last part of my Question. Does he propose to allow this situation to develop in other unions? Is he prepared to take some action which will safeguard the A.E.U., for example, or any other union finding itself in the same position?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is always capable of having a Question taken off the Order Paper when it has been out-dated by events. I made my statement and the House debated

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  that statement, and in fact the strike did end the following day despite the scepticism of hon. Members opposite on that point. In regard to the A.E.U., I think it would be abundantly capable of looking after its problems.
  Mr. Heath: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when he will be able to inform the House about his decision about the inquiry he undertook to consider in the last few minutes of his winding-up speech in the debate?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I said in the last few minutes of the wind-up that we would consider it, but, as the right hon. Member will be aware, we have had one or other questions to consider in the last few days.
  Mr. Heath: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea at all of when he will be able to give us the answer?
  The Prime Minister: No, but when I am ready to give an answer I certainly will.
  Mr. Lewis: On a point of order. Is it right for the Prime Minister to suggest that I am not capable of taking a Question off the Order Paper? [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I have heard enough of the alleged point of order to know that it is not a point of order.

  VIETNAM
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether he will inform President Johnson on his forthcoming visit that the Government dissociates itself from and condemns the practice of saturation bombing of open towns and villages in South Vietnam with the use of napalm and splinter bombs against civilians, including women and children.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to a supplementary question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) on 21st June.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Is it my right hon. Friend's contention that acts of this kind by regular forces of an alleged civilised Power are legitimate as reprisals against atrocities performed by irregulars who are not bound by the laws of war?
  The Prime Minister: I said when this was last discussed in the House that of course as long as this cruel war continues there will be terrible acts of this kind from all sides. Of course, if my hon. Friend is standing on the position about irregulars not being bound by the rules of war, he has still to explain the massive infiltration into South Vietnam of North Vietnam regular forces.
  Mr. Longden: Has the Prime Minister any evidence whatever that there has been any saturation bombing of open towns, or of any of the things alleged in this Question, or that there has been anything other than the bombing of supply lines and essential supplies which are normal operations of war?
  The Prime Minister: Of course, there are many different accounts coming out of Vietnam of what is happening. I have never seen any evidence about saturation bombing of open towns, certainly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Say so."] I am doing. I am sure the House will recognise that if on every inaccurate Question from either side of the House I spent half my answering denying alleged facts for which hon. Members must bear responsibility, I should never get my answer out.
  Mr. Kershaw: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister says that there is no evidence of saturation bombing, ought the Table to have accepted this Question?
  Mr. Speaker: The Question was in order.
  Mr. ZilliacusIn view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.
  Dr. David Kerrasked the Prime Minister if he will make the arrangements necessary to enable treatment to be provided in the United Kingdom for Vietnamese children suffering from napalm burns.
  The Prime Minister: Such arrangements have already been made in a few cases but in general I think it is better for sick and injured children to be treated in their own country in familiar surroundings. As my hon. Friend will know, we are now establishing a strong

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  pediatric team to work in the Saigon Children's Hospital and this should enable many hundreds of Vietnamese children to receive skilled care and attention.
  Dr. Kerr: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the pediatric team which has gone to Saigon is not one which is equipped to deal with napalm burns? Is he aware that the Swiss team, representing an organisation called Terre des Hommes, looked at this problem and was appalled at the need for treatment which will not be satisfied by the help which we are currently giving? In the name of common humanity, will my right hon. Friend look at this question again with a view to helping in this respect?
  The Prime Minister: I have said that these arrangements have been made in some special cases, but if this problem is to continue—we all know why it is continuing—we shall certainly need on an international basis better measures for treatment in Saigon and in Vietnam itself.
  Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Will the Prime Minister also consider sending a team to the Yemen so that it can treat civilians and children suffering from the effects of napalm bombs dropped by Nasser's forces?
  The Prime Minister: That is a different question, but if the hon. Member puts it down I shall give an answer to it.
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether he will adopt as the policy of Her Majesty's Government and propose to President Johnson in Washington a cease-fire and a halt to military build-ups in Vietnam, and the convocation of a new Geneva Conference with the participation of the National Liberation Front or a South Vietnam coalition including the National Liberation Front with the object of seeking negotiations on the methods and time-table for the withdrawal of foreign forces and North Vietnamese forces from South Vietnam followed, when the process of withdrawal was half completed, by negotiations on the implementation of the 1954 Geneva Agreements.
  The Prime Minister: Our policy is to try to bring about a negotiated settlement by bringing the parties to the conference table for unconditional negotiations.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Does not my right hon. Friend recognise that unconditional negotiations with a large American force still in South Vietnam would leave the North Vietnamese open to American demands for partition backed with threats of renewing the war if they refused?
  The Prime Minister: The United States Administration have said time and time again that they are prepared to enter unconditional negotiations. Unconditional means unconditional and does not involve laying anyone open to any threats. My hon. Friend should now direct his very considerable abilities to trying to persuade other people to come to the conference table for similar unconditional discussions.

  WORLD POPULATION, POVERTY AND FOOD
  Sir C. Osborneasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the United Nations estimate that North American food surpluses will not be adequate to feed the world's increased population within the next 15 years, he will take the initiative to call a world conference on population, poverty and food; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: I share the hon. Member's concern, as does the whole House, about world poverty and hunger. The United Nations, and in particular the Food and Agriculture Organisation, are devoting a great deal of work to these problems and I have strengthened the organisation of the Government for ensuring that we play a full part in their work.
  Sir C. Osborne: In view of the fact that world population today is 3,250 million and in 70 years it will be 14,000 million and real hunger and starvation will face the human race, will the Prime Minister do all he can through the United Nations to help solve this problem?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, certainly. I led a delegation from this country 20 years ago to a conference—which met for some four months—on this problem. The questions now are no less urgent than they were then, and I fully endorse the hon. Member's concern about this problem. Steps are being taken to deal with it.

  STEEL INDUSTRY (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
  Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Prime Minister whether he will transfer the responsibility for the steel industry to the Minister of Technology.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Question is more up-to-date now even than when I laid it? In view of the fact that the former Minister of Technology has gone, will the right hon. Gentleman also get rid of the Bill?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member no doubt had prepared a suitably ponderous supplementary question and had to change it with equal ponderousness this week, but the change at the Ministry of Technology does not affect in any way the very strong arguments for the Steel Bill, which in any case is the responsibility of the Minister of Power.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Does the Prime Minister recognise that there is some need to clarify the rôle to be played in future by the Minister of Technology? Whereas when he was first appointed the idea was that he should take over much of the work hitherto done by the D.S.I.R., he now seems to be becoming the Minister for heavy engineering.
  The Prime Minister: This was explained on several occasions in the House and I should be glad to make further explanations if the hon. Member thinks it necessary. Originally this Department took over part of the responsibilities of the Department of Education and Science including part of the D.S.I.R., the N.R.D.C. and the Atomic Energy Authority and shortly had responsibility for the electronics industry and machine tools and later engineering industries. The hon. Member will be aware of the increased sponsorship responsibilities which I announced when we discussed the aviation problem a few weeks ago.
  Mr. Lubbock: In view of the fact that the energy industries are very much dependent on advanced technology, might there not be a case for the integration of the Ministeries of Power and Techno-
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  logy? Will the Prime Minister give consideration to this?
  The Prime Minister: Many Departments are in need of further technological progress, and I recognise that there is a marginal problem here as between atomic energy within technology and electricity generation within power, but the problem is that certain Departments would get too big if we had to amalgamate all subjects in one Department when they had a common interest.
  Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that the former Minister of Technology, the right hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Cousins), last night declared that he and his colleagues tackled their problems in a rather guesswork sort of way without deep study, drifting into decisions inevitably with a bit of amateurishness? In these circumstances, is it enough merely to replace the Minister of Technology? Ought he not to replace all his colleagues?
  The Prime Minister: I think my right hon. Friend is as aware as I am, as I have said many times of many important questions, that they were decisions which had to be taken when we were very deficient in the amount of statistical information available to the Government. The right hon. Member used to suffer from this. It is affecting not least the production index. We are trying to improve the statistical services so that decisions will be taken with a higher degree of certainty and less of the anxieties which the right hon. Member has expressed.

  PRESS CORRESPONDENTS, NIGERIA (EXPULSION)
  Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that, following the expulsion of the Daily Telegraph correspondent, Nigeria has now expelled Mr. Walter Schwarz of The Guardian; and if he will raise the issue of the freedom of the Press at the forthcoming Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference.
  The Prime Minister: I am aware of this expulsion and, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations told the House

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  on 5th July, strong representations about it have been made to the Nigerian Government. I cannot, however, forecast the Agenda of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Meeting, because, as the House knows, this is drawn up by collective agreement and is confidential.
  Mr. King: Is it not a fact that in recent years no fewer than 12 British correspondents have been expelled from Commonwealth countries? Does not this make it a Commonwealth matter? Is it not unreasonable that, although we willingly want to give aid to Commonwealth countries, we should be refused sufficient information on which to assess the value and quality of the aid we give?
  The Prime Minister: I would not without notice care to confirm, nor, indeed, to deny, the figure of 12 stated by the hon. Gentleman. There have certainly been a number of expulsions. In one or two cases at Commonwealth Conferences I have taken the matter up with the Heads of the Commonwealth Governments concerned. I doubt whether we should make a lot of progress by getting this dealt with on an all-Commonwealth basis in a conference, but I am quite prepared to consider this and see what further can be done to try to get some more common treatment in this matter.
  Mr. Heath: As the Prime Minister knows, the whole House always feels very strongly about matters such as this. Would he consider whether the Commonwealth Press Union could take this matter up in individual countries, and members of the Press in those countries themselves make representations to the Governments concerned in an endeavour to right this wrong?
  The Prime Minister: I think that in the first instance, as has been the case in many similar examples in the past, the really influential professional bodies, such as the International Federation of Journalists and the Commonwealth Press Union, would be taking this up. I agree that to the extent to which their members in these countries have any influence this is probably the best way to do it.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he can state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Herbert Bowden): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 11TH JULY—Supply [3rd Allotted day]: Committee.
General debate on Foreign Affairs, with special reference to Europe and the Middle East.
Second Reading of the Criminal Appeal Bill [Lords].
Motions on the Horticulture Improvement Scheme and on the Death Duties Order.
TUESDAY, 12TH JULY—Report stage of the Finance Bill, which it is hoped to complete on Wednesday, 13th July.
THURSDAY, 14TH JULY—Second Reading of the Prices and Incomes Bill.
FRIDAY, 15TH JULY—Remaining stages of the Reserve Forces Bill, and of the Criminal Appeal Bill [Lords].
Second Reading of the Malawi Republic Bill [Lords].
Motion on the Greenwich Hospital Accounts.
MONDAY, 18TH JULY—The proposed business will be: Progress on the remaining stages of the Selective Employment Payments Bill.
Mr. Heath: Is the Leader of the House aware that we have asked that the debate on the Adjournment on Monday should be with special reference to Europe and the Middle East? It was, I think, the general desire of the House that we should debate Vietnam on the first day and other aspects of foreign affairs on the second day.
As we are not to start the Committee stage of the Selective Employment Payments Bill until Monday, 18th July, is it the right hon. Gentleman's intention still to complete all the remaining stages of this Bill in the House before we rise for the Summer Recess?
Mr. Bowden: It is hoped that Monday's debate will be on Europe and the

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Middle East. The debate is on the Adjournment, so it would be in order to raise anything else, but it is hoped that the debate will be restricted to Europe and the Middle East.
The Government hope to get all the remaining stages of the Selective Employment Payments Bill before we rise for the Summer Recess.
Sir G. de Freitas: Has my right hon. Friend studied Motion No. 106, which is signed by my hon. Friends the Members for Bilston (Mr. Robert Edwards) and Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller), by hon. Members opposite, and by myself?
[That this House, mindful of the fact that in nearly every Parliament of the eighteen member nations of the Council of Europe, other than the United Kingdom, debates are held at least once a year on the work of the Council, and aware that this subject is not appropriate for inclusion in a general debate on foreign affairs, considers that half a day should be reserved before the summer recess for a debate on the work of the Council of Europe.]
Will my right hon. Friend follow the example of other Parliaments in Europe and arrange a short, concise debate expressly on the working of the Council of Europe?
Mr. Bowden: I am well aware of my hon. Friend's interest and of the high office he holds in Europe, but I cannot promise additional time between now and the Summer Recess for a special debate on the Council of Europe.
Mr. Sandys: Would the Leader of the House arrange, perhaps with the First Secretary of State, that between now and the Summer Recess there should be a full statement on the progress of the talks which have been taking place between Her Majesty's Government and the various European Governments in connection with the possibility of our joining the European Common Market? I understand that Ministers will not be ready to make a full statement in the debate on Monday.
Mr. Bowden: I understand that my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State has already said that a statement will be made when the appropriate moment arrives.
Mr. Lubbock: As an unprecedented number of Amendments have already been tabled to the Selective Employment Payments Bill, and as the Leader of the House has now told us that he intends that all stages of the Bill should be completed before the Summer Recess, will he give urgent consideration, through the usual channels, to discussing this very important Bill on Wednesday mornings?
Mr. Bowden: I have said previously that a special Resolution of the House is required for the House to sit mornings, and that that itself is time-consuming. On the other hand, I think that I can promise the House adequate time to discuss the Selective Employment Payments Bill.
Mr. Frank Allaun: The Leader of the House will be aware that, because of the General Election, there has been no discussion this summer of the Defence Estimates. Since the "small" sum of £2,100 million is involved, surely the House should have a debate on this subject, which is blocking progress on every other point?
Mr. Bowden: My hon. Friend may have forgotten that there was such a debate on the Vote on Account.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: May I remind the House that we have an important debate ahead of us, in which 50 hon. Members are seeking to take part. Hon. Members may wish to bear this in mind when thinking of putting business questions now.
Sir A. V. Harvey: In view of the grave concern in the country about the performance of British European Airways and the staff involved in the Corporation, will the Leader of the House consider having a debate on aviation generally before we rise?
Mr. Bowden: No, Sir. I cannot promise such a debate before we rise. This is, in the first place, a matter for B.E.A. and it could perhaps be raised later on a nationalised industries day.
Dr. David Kerr: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that another place on two occasions, and this House on two occasions, have, by significant majorities, welcomed a liberalising Measure relating

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to the law on homosexual practices among consenting adults? Will my right hon. Friend say what response the Government propose to make to that indication of the will of Parliament by assisting the Bill in its progress through all its stages during this Session?
Mr. Bowden: The House gave leave to bring in this Bill only on Tuesday. We have approximately 15 months to run in the current Session. Perhaps my hon. Friend would ask me the question later.
Mr. Edward M. Taylor: In view of the very alarming reports that Scottish Members are receiving about the effect which the seamen's strike had on the Scottish Islands, would the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he would make a statement on this matter early next week?
Mr. Bowden: I understand that the Highland and Islands Board is studying the question of the adverse effects of the seamen's strike on the Islands. The Board will be reporting to the Secretary of State. No doubt my right hon. Friend will make a statement after that.
Mr. O'Malley: In view of the disturbing events arising from the existence of pirate radio, will the Leader of the House do everything he can to expedite the publication of the Bill to deal with pirate radio? When will that Bill be forthcoming?
Mr. Bowden: I cannot give a date, but we shall bring the Bill forward as soon as possible.
Mr. Braine: Is the Leader of the House aware that many hon. Members on both sides have been pressing the Minister of Health for many months to implement the recommendations of the Brain Committee on Drug Addiction and that the urgency of this has been underlined by the medical profession during the last few days? Would the Leader of the House urge his right hon. Friend to make a statement sufficiently well before the Recess, so that the House can debate the matter if the necessity arises?
Mr. Bowden: I will certainly ask my right hon. Friend if he can make a statement before we rise.
Mr. George Jeger: Would my right hon. Friend ask whoever is to open the debate on Europe and the Middle East on Monday to pay some attention to the situation regarding ourselves, Spain and Gibraltar and inform the House of the progress of the discussions which are going on?
Mr. Bowden: As far as I am aware, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will be speaking first on this side of the House. I will draw his attention to the point made by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Does this mean that, certainly for the next eight days, the situation continues in which Malawi is a republic by domestic law but a monarchy by British law? When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to get the Malawi Republic Bill through to the Royal Assent?
Mr. Bowden: I did not quite understand the hon. Gentleman's question. Perhaps he would be kind enough to put it again.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: The announcement that on Friday next week the Malawi Republic Bill will come before the House presumably means that, until then, Malawi is a republic under its own domestic law since yesterday, but a monarchy under British law. Should not this be resolved rather more quickly?
Mr. Bowden: The situation is not without precedent. We shall get the Royal Assent as quickly as possible.
Mr. Stratton Mills: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to give any more information about when the White Paper on broadcasting is likely to be published? Is there likely to be any delay because of the Ministerial changes at the Post Office?
Mr. Bowden: I cannot give a firm date for publication. Of course, the changes in the Ministerial responsibility will mean the matter being looked at a little longer.
Sir C. Osborne: In view of the enormous importance of next Thursday's debate on the Prices and Incomes Bill, could we have an extra hour for that debate, since many more hon. Members will wish to take part than there will be time for? Secondly, since the success

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of this policy will be impossible without the full co-operation of the trade unions, will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to get the right hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Cousins) to come here and state his case, so that we can thoroughly understand his point of view?
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not exactly a business question.
Mr. Bowden: The second point raised by the hon. Gentleman is a matter for Mr. Speaker and not for me. I will consider whether we can provide an additional hour for the debate.
Mr. Iremonger: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) about the form of address of hon. Members?
[That this House regards the use of expressions such as "honourable gentleman" or "honourable friend" followed by the name of the constituency as archaic and prefers the use of a Member's name with his normal title.]
and my Amendment to it:
[Line 1, leave out from "House" to end and add "recognises that exchanges across the Floor properly cover matters on which there is a conflict of deeply held convictions; that in such exchanges the duty of the House is to clarify the issues and come to a decision on the question putting aside prejudice, private interest and partial affections; that it is psychologically sound in furthering this purpose for Members to eschew the use of personal names and the consequent excitement of more emotional involvement than is necessary; that the best substitute for a personal name is an appropriate generic term; that the generic term best calculated to remind the House of the qualities required of representatives of the people in a sovereign assembly is one which enshrines the ideals of courage, honour and kindness which are not so much archaic as eternal qualities; that terms
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such as "honourable gentleman" and "honourable and gallant gentleman" adequately serve this purpose; and that in this respect the dynamics of debate as an efficient process have been shrewdly evolved by the House and should continue to be applied with courtesy and good sense."]
If so, will he help us to come to a conclusion on the matter promptly?
Mr. Bowden: I answered this question last week. I have nothing to add.
Sir C. Orr-Ewing: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to Motion No. 99, concerning the treatment of Jewish people in the Soviet Union, which has now been signed by no fewer than 164 hon. Members on both sides of the House?
[That this House notes with concern the continuing difficulties confronting Jews in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to use its good offices to secure for them the basic human rights afforded to other Soviet citizens.]
Would this not be a suitable subject for the Prime Minister to raise on his visit to Moscow?
Mr. Bowden: I answered a similar question on Thursday last week—I hope sympathetically. I will draw this to the attention of my right hon. Friend.
Mr. McMaster: In view of the urgent need for the reorganisation of British shipyards and the injection of new capital, recommended in the Geddes Report and underlined today by the cancellation of a Shell tanker, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for a debate on the Geddes Report before the Summer Recess?
Mr. Bowden: I am aware of the importance of the Geddes Report, but I cannot promise Government time before the Summer Recess. If the Opposition wish to use a Supply day, it is up to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.

VIETNAM
Mr. Speaker: Before calling the Foreign Secretary, perhaps I may announce to the House that I have selected the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Michael Foot: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could you give further information on your failure to select the other Amendment, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Newens) and the names of many other hon. Members?
[Line 6, leave out from "bases" to end and add "condemns the decision of the United States Government to bomb installations in Hanoi and Haiphong, with the inevitable heavy loss of life involved; recognises that this grave extension of the war is the direct consequence of the misguided policies pursued by the United States Government throughout this conflict; and calls on Her Majesty's Government to dissociate itself completely from these policies so that Great Britain can play a positive and effective part in bringing about a peaceful settlement".]
Are there not precedents whereby such an Amendment, which represents obviously a substantial body of opinion in the House, should have an opportunity of being discussed and voted upon in the House?
Is it not also the case that it would be possible for the Chair to select not only the Amendment which the Official Opposition has proposed, but also the Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping so that a vote could take place on both these questions? Our Amendment represents a substantial body of opinion in the House which will not be represented if it is not selected.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for putting the point so succinctly. As he and his hon. Friends will know, he came to me last night and made representations very carefully on the lines that have been made to me now. I have given very careful consideration to all the points which were raised last night and I thought that I would make an observation or two.
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First, I recognise the intensity of the political feeling which today's debate may involve. The Speaker shares with every right hon. and hon. Member a knowledge of the gravity of this day's debate, but as Speaker I cannot allow my knowledge of Members' political feelings to influence me in applying the rules of the House to selecting Amendments. I thought that it might help new hon. Members and refresh the memories of older hon. Members if I explain what will happen today.
The business today is decided not by myself, but by the Government, who have tabled a Motion. The Official Opposition have both a right and a duty to express a view on any proposal put before the House by the Government and in pursuance of that duty have tabled their Amendment, which I am selecting.
The course of the debate will run as follows: after the Government mover has sat down, the Question on the Motion will be proposed to the House. The Official Opposition Amendment will then be moved, to leave out certain words in order to add certain other words. I shall then propose a second Question from the Chair, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question. If that Question is decided in the affirmative, it is impossible, under the rules of the House, to move any other Amendment.
The only remaining issue to be decided will be the main Question, on which, if necessary, a vote will be taken. The Chair cannot, of course, foresee events, but I have to have regard to the balance of probabilities. Assuming that the Official Opposition Amendment was eventually disagreed to and we come then to vote on the main Question, hon. Members will still have had the opportunity tonight of voting in four different ways: first, for the Opposition Amendment or against it; secondly, for the Government Motion or against it. Hon. Members who have supported the other Amendment on the Order Paper which I have not selected should be able by their votes in one or other of these four directions sufficiently to indicate their views—[Laughter.] Order. These are serious matters.
As I was saying, they should be able to make their views known and their position clear both to the House and to the country generally.
Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I express the hope that, with a long and important debate before us, we do not spend much time on points of order on a decision which: he Chair has made and which the Chair is entrusted to make.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: I have no intention of submitting an argument to you, or interfering with the prerogative that Standing Orders lay upon you to apply according to your own decision. But I want to point out that the questions which are to be discussed today are, I suppose, the most important questions which have arisen in the House for many years. In the result, when one pays the closest possible attention to everything that you have said, we have the rather fantastic situation that, at the end of the day, there will be no opportunity whatever for a single hon. Member to vote for the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Newens) although a very large number of hon. Members would like to vote for it.
Is it not a little peculiar that the House of Commons, at this time of day, should be stultified by its own procedural rules into not being able to discuss and vote upon the things which it wishes to decide?
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) has done just what he said that he would not do—he has questioned the selection. It is a matter of cold fact that when an Amendment is not selected, nobody can vote for it. The position is that the selection must be as I have said.
Mr. Eric Lubbock: Further to that point of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "It was not a point of order."] Further to that question, then. There is a more important general question which arises from your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I wonder whether you would be pre-pr red to elucidate it a little further. In any case where the Government table a Motion and the Official Opposition put down an Amendment to it, within our rules of order it is impossible for any minority within the House to express its own point of view by means of a vote. Is that the effect of what you have just told the House?
Mr. Speaker: I would not rule that generally. There are all kinds of situations in which Motions appear on Order Papers. To take a simple example, the debate on the Queen's Speech lasts over a number of days. I am simply saying that in this case my duty is quite clear. It is to select the Amendment put down by the Official Opposition. That does not debar hon. Members from expressing the views—and I suspect that they will be expressed—which lie in the Amendment which I have not selected. I hope that we can now proceed.
3.51 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): I beg to move,
That this House, deeply anxious to see an end to the cruel war in Vietnam and recalling Her Majesty's Government's repeated urgings that all parties concerned in the dispute should enter into negotiations to stop the fighting and achieve a settlement which would enable the peoples of North and South Vietnam to determine their own future and which would ensure that the whole country became neutral without foreign troops or bases, approves Her Majesty's Government's determination to pursue their efforts to promote the unconditional negotiations already accepted by the United States but so far rejected by North Vietnam; and endorses Her Majesty's Government's announcement on 29th June of its decision to dissociate itself from the bombing of oil installations in the Hanoi and Haiphong areas.
The Motion is entitled "Vietnam", but we are all aware that other and wider issues are involved, that this is not a question only of a war between countries, but that we have also, for example, to consider questions of social organisation and social justice in Vietnam itself and to place the struggle in Vietnam in its position in South-East Asia and in its position in world politics as a whole. With these matters, without delaying the House unduly, I shall endeavour to deal.
It is apparent from the Amendments, and from things which have been said elsewhere, that those who criticise or oppose the Government's views expressed in the Motion do so from many different standpoints. There are some who attack the Government because of their recent statement dissociating the Government and the country from a particular act by the United States. There are those who demand the complete dissociation of the country from the policy of the United States. I shall ask the House

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to consider what merit and what weight of argument there is in those criticisms, and I hope to justify the position which the Government set out in the Motion. But, certainly, the opening words of the Motion will command everyone's assent, for we are all anxious to end the cruel war in Vietnam. I want, first, to say certain words about this cruelty.
The cruelties which follow inescapably from aerial bombardment have received widespread publicity. In a world where there are opportunities for communication of facts and of knowledge, it is inevitable and right that that should be so, and the cruelties which follow inevitably from aerial bombardment have a terrible and spectacular nature about them which particularly commands the attention. Citizens of countries which experienced aerial bombardment during the war react to them in a manner which is natural and inevitable.
But it is of great importance, if we are to take a proper view and form a proper judgment of this matter, that we should realise that the cruelties which have occured in this war are not confined to those which follow inevitably from aerial bombardment, that there is a long story of the most merciless cruelty carried out by the Vietcong over a long period of years. I mention this partly because, as I say, so much publicity has been given to the effects of aerial bombardment that we must bear these facts in mind if we are to have a balanced view.
I would certainly not suggest that anyone among the Government's critics who demands complete dissociation from the United States, or anyone who expresses sympathy for the Vietcong, is, therefore, to be regarded as approving or rejoicing in this sickening sort of Vietcong cruelty; and I therefore trust that it will not be suggested that those who believe, as we do, that the general line of United States policy has been right are to be regarded as enjoying the cruelties which spring from aerial bombardment. We ought to remove this kind of consideration from the argument altogether. The cruelties are there, some inevitable if war is waged at all, some deliberately and mercilessly inflicted apart from the ordinary operations of war.
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But the more we think of these cruelties, the more we should be determined to get the war stopped. I am not speaking here merely in general terms. As far back as 1960, the number of persons, quite apart from operations of battle, being murdered or abducted by the Vietcong was running at 6,000 a year. By 1965, it was 9,000. In the first half of this year, it was more than 5,000. It is important to notice who these victims were. Not only were they civilian and unarmed, but they were particularly people who held any kind of governmental position, or position of authority in their villages.
The aim of the campaign was to disrupt the machinery of government by filling everyone with so much dread that he dare not take on a responsible position, and so perished village headmen, agriculturists sent by the Government in South Vietnam to advise farmers on their crops, administrators of the land reform scheme. This is the kind of situation in which the Government of South Vietnam have been operating for at least the last six years. We must bear this in mind when criticisms are made—and criticisms can certainly be made—of the Government in South Vietnam.
We have heard it argued, for example, that it was a justification for the flaming up of hostilities again in 1960 that the Government of South Vietnam had not proceeded with proper social reforms and was not establishing social justice, but is the process of murdering everyone who is engaged in the business of government a way to end social injustice? These are the considerations which one must have in mind.
Mr. Will Griffiths: I have no doubt at all that these terrible things happen, but, just to attempt to judge how much weight to attach to these detailed charges, can my right hon. Friend say what are the sources of this information?
Mr. Stewart: It comes from people who have observed these things on the spot and have reported them. It comes from sources available to the British Government. I do not think that my hon. Friend, if he studied this matter at all will really doubt that this kind of thing is happening. It is happening

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not only in South Vietnam, but in some of the neighbouring countries as well.
Mr. Will Griffiths Mr. Will Griffiths rose—
Mr. Stewart: If my hon. Friend is not questioning this, then I do not think that we ought to consume the time of.he House further.
Mr. Will Griffiths: I only wanted to know the source.
Mr. Stewart: I must mention these matters further, because this kind of situation throughout Vietnam is one of the events that makes it impossible, at present, for the Geneva Agreements to be fulfilled. Another matter which will command wide general agreement is that we should, if it is at all possible, seek a settlement on the basis of the Geneva Agreements.
But the Geneva Agreements require, for example, that there should be no foreign Powers in Vietnam. They also require that North and South should refrain from attacks upon each other. Here again, if we are to keep the balance we must remember that there are 14 full regiments of North Vietnamese forces now operating south of the 17th Parallel. Further, the Geneva Agreements required that the people of Vietnam should be able to express a free choice as to their form of Government for the future.
This, also, is impossible while the fighting continues. Whichever way we look at this matter, the more anxious we are to stop the cruelties on either side, the more anxious we are to see the Geneva Agreements honoured, the more we are driven to the conclusion that the first thing we must try to do is to get the conflict stopped.
On what basis, or looking towards what solution, could it be stopped? I have answered this question on several occasions in the House, and to summarise the earlier replies that I have given, I would say that we want to see the conflict stopped so that a situation can emerge in which the people of Vietnam, North and South, with their country freed from foreign troops and bases, can, by their own free choice, determine their future. Again, I hope that this will be something which will command general agreement in the House. I am sure that it is the result that we all hope and desire will emerge.
Sir Tatton Brinton: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether a Vietnamese regiment is what we would call a battalion or a brigade?
Mr. Stewart: I think that it is more comparable with what we would call a battalion.
The basis of settlement should be that the people of Vietnam, in North and South, with their country free from foreign troops and bases, should be able to determine their own future. If that is the basis which we want, we must notice. first, that that result could not be achieved by outright Communist victory, because the Communists in North Vietnam have made it clear that in their view the future of the country must be settled in accordance with the wishes of what is called the Fatherland Front in the North and the National Liberation Front in the South. In their view, the Communists alone are to determine the future of the country.
If a victory of that kind occurred one could not have the solution which I believe all of us desire. It seems that those who say that Her Majesty's Government should completely dissociate themselves from the whole of American policy should ask themselves this question: is it their desire that here and now all American forces should leave the country?
Mr. J. J. Mendelson: It is not my desire, or that of other hon. Members who take my view, that that should happen at all. We have never said so. At the end of a process of peace-making when the Geneva Agreements are implemented, then all foreign troops should withdraw—but not before the peace conference.
Mr. Stewart: I am glad to hear my hon. Friend say so. I am entitled to say that it has not been stated quite so clearly before.
Mr. Mendelson Mr. Mendelson rose—
Mr. Stewart: I think that I am entitled to say that, and if that is my hon. Friend's position it does not differ from that of the United States Government. If there are any who demand immediate

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United States withdrawal, they must recognise that the result of outright Communist victory is not consistent with demanding the fulfilment of the Geneva Agreements.
Mrs. Lena Jeger rose—
Mr. Stewart: I cannot give way. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] My hon. Friend must remember that this is a complex story and one must try to see the whole argument set out. The House will agree that I am generally very ready to give way. I have done so several times already in a very short space of time, but it is necessary to continue.
The basis which I have set forth is the one on which we could get, and, I believe, ought to get, a settlement which cannot be achieved by immediate American withdrawal or by outright Communist victory. This is the settlement which the President and the Government of the United States have made clear repeatedly they are willing to accept. If anyone doubts that—
Mr. John Hynd: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is quite impossible for some of us to hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I was about to intervene myself. I hope that we are going to debate this profound and moving issue by debate and not by noise.
Mr. Stewart: I was saying that this basis of settlement, which all believe to be right, and which the Government have repeatedly put forward, is one which has for long been accepted by the Government of the United States. That was made clear in a speech made in April last year by President Johnson, and which has been made clear on at least eight occasions since then. I have not counted the full record.
I have considered the attitude of the United States towards fulfilling the Geneva Agreements, and their attitude and ours has always been that we should seek a settlement on the lines of those agreements. What about the position of the Government of South Vietnam? I know that criticism both of American action and of the view and policy of the British Government has too often been concentrated upon the defects of the Gov-
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ernment of South Vietnam. At present, one has in that country a number of groups who have been expressing their dissidence, difference, criticism and hostility towards the Government of South Vietnam. It is significant that they have been able to do so on a scale that would not be open to dissidents in North Vietnam.
It is important to notice, also, that recently 10 civilians have been added to the military directorate and that the plans for holding elections in September are now going ahead. Here again, it may be asked, what degree of freedom will there be in these elections? We know for certain that differing groups strongly critical of each other are able to express, and have been expressing, their criticisms and have now come together on the basis of preparing for elections.
I stress this because it is sometimes suggested that we are dealing in South Vietnam with a purely Fascist Government. It seems to me that people who describe as Fascist a Government. whatever its many defects, in a country in which it is possible for dissident groups to express their views, to parade, to march, to argue with the Government, to be invited to participate with the Government and to join with the Government in preparing elections, must have forgotten what Fascism was really like. We cannot, therefore, try to deal with this matter by pointing out the defects of the Government of South Vietnam.
If we are to accept the proposition that because a Government is not a democracy it is, therefore, a legitimate object of aggression, it will be extremely difficult to preserve the peace of the world. But if there are any people in South Vietnam or elsewhere who are hardening against the idea of a negotiated settlement, there is one thing which the Government in North Vietnam could do which might help to persuade them away from that course, and that is to set an example to that when a negotiated settlement is reached it is kept.
I believe that one thing which has caused anxiety both in South Vietnam and in the United States about the problems which would arise when one got to the conference table is the sight of what has happened in Laos, where a negotiated settlement was reached and where today North Vietnamese forces are using

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Laotian territory to help the invasion of South Vietnam contrary to the Laotian agreement; where the International Control Commission is prevented from operating in the Communist-held areas of Laos contrary to the agreement; and where the authority of the Laotian Government is set at nought in the Communist-held areas of Laos, again contrary to the agreement.
If we could have, with the help of the Government of North Vietnam, an example set in Laos that agreements of that kind, once made, are kept, it would, I believe, help to remove any danger that opinion might harden on the other side against a negotiated settlement. But, here again, we cannot make progress towards a negotiated settlement until the fighting is stopped. That is why the Motion refers to the efforts of the British Government to get a conference and a cease-fire. I think it right to remind the House briefly and summarily of those efforts.
On at least four occasions I have suggested to Mr. Gromyko, my fellow co-chairman of the Geneva Conference, that that conference be recalled. I would draw this particularly to the attention of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), because he said in one of our earlier debates on this subject that he believed that it would be through the mechanism of the Geneva conference that this matter would ultimately be settled. He may be right, although I do not think that we should rely on that method alone. But we have certainly not neglected that method.
There was the Commonwealth Mission. There were the repeated efforts, on various visits, by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and by my noble Friend, Lord Chalfont, who approached both Russians and North Vietnamese. There were many efforts through several diplomatic channels. There was the occasion when my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance went to Hanoi.
I mention these things because I am answering some of the other critics of the Government who, at times, have been very vocal in criticising us for making any attempts to get a negotiated settlement. I think that the House, when it
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gives its judgment tonight, should bear that in mind. I noticed particularly certain remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition during the election, I think, about the mission of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance
"A little man".
as the right hon. Gentleman called him, inadequate to end a big war."
I noticed a similar sneer from the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) in a newspaper the other day.
Let me ask the Leader of the Opposition this: if there were in his party somebody who had held junior Ministerial office and who, for any reasons, was able to get to Hanoi and talk to Communist leaders there, and if there were any chance—[Interruption] No. The hon. Member is quite wrong. I deliberately used the phrase "Communist leaders" because, as is known, my hon. Friend spoke not to members of the Government, but to leading figures in the Communist Party. If there were among hon. Members opposite somebody who had held junior Ministerial rank and who, for any reason, could reach that degree of contact with Hanoi, and if there were the least chance of peace coming from it, would the Leader of the Opposition have told him not to go? The House should know the answer to that type of question.
I wonder what line the Opposition, or those of them who have sneered—it is not all of them, because the Opposition have by no means spoken with one voice in this matter throughout the argument—will take about the invitation to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to go to Moscow in the near future? He will, when there, again impress on the Soviet Government our view that negotiations are urgently needed and that the Geneva Co-Chairmen, Mr. Gromyko and myself, have a heavy obligation to South-East Asia and the world to promote negotiations. The moment that there is any sign of Russian willingness to act, I am ready, as I have always been, to discharge this obligation. One of my right hon. Friend's objects in Moscow will be to see whether there is any readiness to give such a sign.
Mr. Julian Ridsdale: What reason have we to expect that the Prime Minister will be any more successful than President de Gaulle?
Mr. Stewart: The House has heard me setting out the Government's case. It has now heard some of the quality of the criticism offered. It will be able to judge at the end of the evening. We know perfectly well that every one of the attempts we have made was more likely to fail than to succeed. But that has never been a reason, and it will not be a reason in future, for not trying.
There was a letter in the Press the other day from one of my hon. Friends urging that we should use the machinery of the United Nations. We have endeavoured to do so. It is partly through us that the item is inscribed on the agenda of the Security Council. But the reply of North Vietnam has been that this is inappropriate. The reply of the Chinese has been that this is plotting to serve imperialist interests. We notice that all through this process it is the refusal of Hanoi which has made it impossible to come to a conference table.
There are some who find this hard to accept. There is, I know, a strong tendency in the human mind to suppose that if a fact is sufficiently unpleasant it cannot be true. In this context, we must avoid that error. Looking through the whole record, there have been over and over again refusals, underlined by the fact that on one occasion, when it was argued that there was clear evidence of Hanoi having made a move forward, it was Hanoi itself which denied that in the most emphatic terms.
In particular, what no one can dispute is the tragic error of Hanoi in throwing away the great opportunity of the five-week bombing pause at the end of last year. When every criticism has been made of the South Vietnamese Government, or of American policy, that could be made, it still remains true that the bombing stopped for five weeks and that for a shorter time the ground fighting stopped, and it was not the South Vietnamese and American forces which restarted the ground fighting. During those five weeks, approaches were made from every quarter of the globe to Hanoi and to Peking to seize the opportunity. They may come to regret terribly, as
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everyone else must do, that they did not seize that opportunity.
Mention of the bombing pause brings me to answer the point that is often made, that these attempts to get peace were not successful because the Americans would not stop the bombing. Perhaps up to last December it was possible to believe that. Since then, it has been quite impossible to believe it.
Mr. Stanley Orme: On that very point, is it not a fact that during the period of the bombing pause with which my right hon. Friend is dealing now the American military build-up continued at an increasing rate?
Mr. Stewart: Yes, but my hon. Friend must remember that North Vietnamese forces continued to pour down into South Vietnam all the more easily because the bombing pause was in operation.
The original argument was, "If only you will stop the bombing, they will come to a conference." Is it now to be said, "If you will stop the bombing and not send in reinforcements, they will come to a conference"? All the time, it is never Hanoi that says that. It is only the apologists for Hanoi. If Hanoi itself would say it—and I trust that the day will come when it will—then we should be nearer a solution to the problem.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: When some of us asked that there should be a stop to the bombing, we meant a stop and not a pause.
Mr. Stewart: If that is what some people meant, I think that that is really what they should have said; otherwise, they run the risk of being misunderstood.
If the proposition is—
Mr. Mendelson: We did say so.
Mr. Stewart: If the proposition—
Mr. Mendelson: We did say so, at the Labour Party conference.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) must contain himself.
Mr. Stewart: There was, further, the suggestion that our efforts would have been more successful if they had been

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accompanied by a complete dissociation from American policy.
Let us look for a moment at what has happened to the efforts of those who have dissociated themselves from American policy. There was the appeal made jointly by President Tito and the late Mr. Shastri. It is not suggested here, I hope, that they are the tools of American imperialism. But North Vietnam said that their bad motive was undeniable, and China said that they were the servants of United States imperialism. There was the appeal from the 17 nonaligned nations. They were told that they were catering to the interests of United States imperialism. There was the initiative of His Holiness the Pope, who was told that this was part of a gigantic peace talks fraud. There was an initiative by the Indian Government, who were told that this was a new plot to serve United States imperialism.
But I am glad to say that India has not been discouraged by that. I understand that the Indian Prime Minister is at this moment announcing a new Indian initiative, and I undertake to study it at once with every sympathy and hope. From the advance report that I have had, I can say that it is an initiative that Her Majesty's Government will welcome.
In the light of those considerations, the Government hold to the view that our task is both to go on seeking a peaceful solution and to give our general support to those who are willing to negotiate. We believe that it is important to do that, because of the dangers involved.
I said at the outset that I would refer to the world aspects of the problem. We believe that military action taken in Vietnam ought not to be assessed merely by possible military results, but, among other things, by virtue of certain dangers to the world situation that it may contain. It was because of that, in part, though only in part, that we thought that we must dissociate ourselves from the American action in Hanoi and Haiphong.
Mr. Frank Allaun rose—
Mr. Stewart: No, I will not give way. I shall be concluding shortly.
Mr. Allaun: I wish to make only a brief point, and it is relevant to what my
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right hon. Friend is now saying. Does he suggest that he would regret one-tenth of the dirty American war in Vietnam, while supporting the other nine-tenths? That is really the position that he is stating.
Mr. Stewart: I ask my hon. Friend to cast his mind back to what I said at the beginning of my speech. I do not believe that it helps the argument at all to say that someone who disagrees with my hon. Friend on Vietnam is supporting a dirty war. I could say that to anyone who disagrees with me, as readily as anyone could say it to me. As I pointed out, the war is a dirty and horrible business, but it is not right to suppose that one side ought to abandon its position completely to the other. I have really argued that already.
When we speak of dangers, I want to draw the attention of the House to this. As the House knows, I have recently come back from the other side of the world, where people sec things in a slightly different proportion. To take that whole immense range of countries, India, Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines, and our Commonwealth partners, Malaysia, Australia and New Zealand, they are countries which vary very greatly in their politics and in their social and economic structures. But all of them watch the situation with anxiety. Some of them fear that in the future they may be subjected to aggression. Some of them fear that they may be subjected to civil disorder instigated from without. Some of them fear both. However, their fears and anxieties are not directed towards the United States. They are turned in a very different direction.
We have to remind ourselves, therefore, that if we were to pursue a line of policy which meant the abandonment of Vietnam, it would mean a success for Communist aggression, and it would mean a very dangerous lesson for the whole of South-East Asia and perhaps for the affairs of mankind.
I want now to pursue a point which I made a little earlier. Great as are the issues which hang on this, even so, when one considers particular military actions, one has to take into account both the need to prevent the success of aggression and the need to keep the door open for peace.
When we considered the American action in Hanoi and Haiphong and

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weighed up such military advantage as there might be in it, the possible effects on the lives of innocent people and the possible effects in hardening opinion among those who, it may be, we shall need to help us promote a settlement in the future, everyone felt it right to make this expression of dissociation. It may be argued that we are saying to the United States, "Please wage war with moderation", but before anyone dismisses that as an absurdity must we not recognise that in the world in which we now live this must sometimes be done, and has been done?
The conflict in Indonesia, mercifully, never approached the Vietnam war in scale or horror. But there is one important lesson to be drawn from it. I believe that one reason why events are now progressing well there is that, while we kept up the necessary resistance, we were careful not to inflame the situation. Even in the far more terrible and serious conflict of Korea it was well understood that there were certain actions which, on a strictly military basis, if one had been concerned only with military victory, one might have said that it was right to carry out, but from which there was pm-dent restraint because of wider considerations.
Hon. Members must weigh whether our judgment was right upon this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "It was wrong".] For those who say that it was wrong particularly those like the Leader of the Opposition, who has seen fit to say it in rather offensive terms, this question arises: is it the position of the party opposite that it will support whatever the United States Government choose to do? The right hon. Gentleman was asked that question in the Press, and he said that he would not answer a hypothetical question. If the right hon. Gentleman will use, as he did, words like "ratting" about people who disagree with him on this, he should get his own mind a little clearer as to what he would and would not support.
Is there any point at which he would withhold support? [An HON. MEMBER: "No point at all."] If he says that there is none at all, I shall be interested to see how many will agree with him. If he says that in certain circumstances there is a point, he might at least have
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the courtesy to admit that the difference between us is a difference of judgment as to whether that point has been reached. But we still await clarification from the party opposite as to whether or not it is saying that it would support any and every American action.
On that, I would say that never has any Government given to another such an assurance, nor could it give a blanket assurance of that kind. And I ask those who criticise us on the other side, who want complete dissociation from the United States, to consider what would be the consequences—I have suggested how this is seen on the other side of the world—of permitting this successful aggression.
It is because we believe that both these critical attitudes are wrong that the Government have put down the Motion today. I know that as a matter of argument it is much easier to take an extreme position, to say, "We shall support so-and-so in every possible thing, right or wrong." One does not then have to argue the finnicky details. It is much easier also to say, "We shall condemn the United States root and branch."
But that kind of stance, easy as it is to defend by facile argument, is quite useless in the dangerous, delicately-balanced world in which we live today, a world in which we have repeatedly to combine acceptance of the need to resist with the importance of seeking conciliation. That is what the Government have sought to do, and, in my judgment, have done throughout this whole story, and what they will continue to do.
Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has sat down.
4.35 p.m.
Mr. Edward Heath: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"recognising the sacrifices which the Governments and peoples of the United States of America, Australia, and New Zealand are making in resisting aggression in Vietnam and deeply regretting the sufferings endured by the Vietnamese people in this cruel war, supports the United States Government in the

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military measures that they have taken to convince the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong that they cannot win the war, and welcomes President Johnson's unconditional offer to negotiate a peace settlement".
It is true, as the Foreign Secretary said, that this is a solemn debate of major importance. The House expressed its view very clearly last week that it wanted to have a debate, and I believe that the House is right. It is essential that in our procedure we should be able to have these debates at the time when the events happen. We are now so restricted under Standing Order No. 9 that, unless the Government are prepared to arrange a debate, the House is unable to deal with the subject at all.
It is farcical to discuss the question of Parliamentary reform, the creation of more and more committees on the home departments, if the House itself is unable to debate on the Floor major matters of foreign affairs and defence at the time the events happen. Here was a case which it was important to debate, because it involved a change of Government policy. The debate today is made more important by the announcement of the Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to Moscow.
I listened with great interest to the Foreign Secretary's remarks, and I agree with a large number of them. In particular, the whole House will accept his view that we all share an abhorrence of bombing and modern methods of warfare, and of the acts of cruelty which we know take place on both sides of the frontier in this war.
We are united in at least one thing in the House. That is that we want to bring the war to an end in an honourable way at the earliest opportunity. I agree with the Foreign Secretary, also, on what he said about the work which the present South Vietnam Government are attempting to carry through in moving towards elections. Even we never had them in time of war. When I met civilian members of the Government in Saigon, it was apparent that they were trying as hard as they could to carry on the tasks of improving the conditions of the people in almost impossible conditions.
The Foreign Secretary remarked on the situation in Indonesia, and gave the reason why events were going well. I do not disagree with him on that, but it
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is worth asking ourselves whether they would have gone so well if the Communists had already succeeded in overwhelming South Vietnam. I very much doubt it. I do not believe that we should see the situation of stability which is now beginning to develop in Indonesia if that had happened.
The Foreign Secretary asked me how far we would support United States policy. Of course, I shall discuss that in my speech, but this debate is on the specific action about which the Prime Minister made his statement at the beginning of last week, the bombing of the fuel tanks. If the Foreign Secretary puts forward a hypothetical case of an action of a quality, degree and scale entirely different from what is going on in Vietnam, it is possible, again in hypothetical fashion, to see that the Government or the Opposition might wish to disagree with American policy. But the important point is that we are dealing with a specific action from which the Government dissociated themselves in an immediate statement last week. The criticism I shall develop is that this was not an action different in quality or degree from the policy which the Government have been supporting and, therefore, to say that they support American policy and at the same time to dissociate themselves in this way from that specific action is not a logical or, I believe, honourable course to follow.
Mr. K. Zilliacus: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. HeathThe hon. Gentleman's row is not with me but with his right hon. Friends.
Mr. Zilliacus: It is with the right hon. Gentleman this time.
Mr. Heath: Having listened to the Foreign Secretary and compared what he said with the Government's Motion, one sees that the right hon. Gentleman's speech was infinitely stronger in its content than the terms of the Motion. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to know that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) and his hon. Friends agree with me. In the Motion there is no mention whatever of supporting United States policy, but the Foreign Secretary went to considerable

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lengths to support United States policy, and I am glad that he has done so. But the House ought to note the difference between the strength of the language in the Motion and the strength of the Foreign Secretary's speech.
I have said that this debate is about a change in the Government's policy in which they now dissociate themselves from the bombing of the fuel tanks at Hanoi and Haiphong by American forces. Their previous position was set out quite clearly in the statement issued from the Foreign Office on 31st January, after the bombing pause. They then said:
"Consequently, Her Majesty's Government understand and support the decision of the United States Government to resume the bombing which they had suspended in the hope of reaching a peaceful settlement."
That was a clear statement of clear policy and, of course, it was criticised from below the Gangway.
At various times since then, the Prime Minister has said that the Government could not support the bombing of centres of population. He will recall that I specifically asked him a question in the House: would he distinguish between the bombing of centres of population and the bombing of fuel tanks at Hanoi and Haiphong? He refused to answer the question or to make a difference between the two. The whole House objects to the bombing of centres of civilian population. But these are—it has not been challenged by the Foreign Secretary—specific military targets. They are, as the Prime Minister knows, two or three miles away from the actual civilian population. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not very far, is it?"] That is agreed. The Prime Minister has seen the maps. He asked for time in the House to refresh his mind on them, and I hope he has now been able to do so. It seemed a strange request to make at the moment of issuing the statement, but he is perfectly entitled to refresh his memory, remarkable though it sometimes is.
Does the Prime Minister now agree that these are specific military targets which the United States Forces were entitled to say they were attacking and attacking alone, with the risk of only very small casualties? These tanks—the Foreign Secretary has not said very much
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about this—were being used to provide fuel for transport taking reinforcements down the Ho Chi Minh trail. Those who have followed this war know perfectly well that one of the major developments of the last few months has been the use of motorised transport down the Ho Chi Minh trail. I understand that the last report of the Control Commission refers specifically to this. We have not been able to see it, of course, so perhaps the Foreign Secretary might advise the Prime Minister so that he can tell the House whether it is, in fact, the view of the Control Commission that there has been a recent and very considerable build-up.
I turn for a moment to the specific case of the confrontation between Malaysia and Indonesia. Supposing that British forces had found themselves in the same position in Sabah or Sarawak, supposing that major attacks had developed across the border, and we knew that large reinforcements were being brought up and they had aircraft or vehicles fuelled from supply depots close by, in a similar situation, how long would the Prime Minister have been able to hold out against advice from military chiefs of staff and, indeed, the views of the British public that their forces ought not to be subject to loss of life and attack by opposing forces refuelled and reinforced in that way? I do not believe that any British Government would be able to withstand advice of that kind in a similar situation.
In fact, this is not an action of the American Government against the civilian population. I believe that the Prime Minister will acknowledge that. But in dissociating themselves from it, the Government have changed their policy without warning the House or consulting the Commonwealth. Here, I wish to say how greatly we regret that this action was taken without consulting Australia and New Zealand, whose forces are there. As the Prime Minister probably knows, the Prime Minister of New Zealand has made a public statement saying that
"We had no advice from Great Britain on this matter, and one can only presume that Mr. Wilson intended that we should have been informed of this because of the statement he made in the House of Commons".
Mr. Holt, the Prime Minister of Australia, now in London, has made his views very clear as well.

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When a matter of this kind had been publicly discussed for weeks beforehand in the Press, and the Prime Minister must have been able to discuss it with the American Administration, we cannot understand why there was, apparently, no consultation with the Commonwealth on the matter. The Prime Minister has said that, of course, the position of Australia and New Zealand is very different from ours. It is indeed. They have forces actually fighting there, forces which, if I may say so, have been fighting magnificently and have earned the admiration not only of the American forces but of the others in South Vietnam. The Canadians, too, have refused to condemn the bombing of these fuel tanks. So in this matter we are separated from three major countries of the Commonwealth, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
As Australian and New Zealand forces are involved in the battle, is there not all the more reason for consultation with those countries and for considering their interests as well as those of the United States? The Prime Minister said that there was no time to consult them after the actual bombing. Why was it not possible to delay the announcement? As our own Commonwealth forces were involved and there were consequences to them as a result of the opposition which they would meet, would it not have been better if such a statement were never issued at all? We believe this to be a lamentable failure of consultation with the Commonwealth, and it also disregards the position of the Commonwealth forces themselves. It is a matter for the deepest regret.
Mr. David Winnick: May we know whether the Commonwealth countries were informed at the time of Suez?
Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that they were. Consultation was carried out with them then, but the Prime Minister has not carried out consultation now. He said so himself, and the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand have both said so. Perhaps we might treat this matter seriously.
Let us now consider the reasons which the Prime Minister has given for the Government's dissociation from this particular episode. He admitted that it was difficult to make an assessment,
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though the Foreign Secretary was much firmer and said that it was possible to make a clear assessment and stated what his was in his speech. First, the Prime Minister said that the reason was the civilian casualties. As this is one of the two reasons he gave for his change of policy, one is entitled to ask what indication the Government had that they would be large, and why this was different from the United States calculation which must have been put before him and the Government. Why did he dissociate himself, if there were these differences, before knowing what the consequences of the action were?
What is the evidence of the heavy casualties which has made him dissociate himself from this action? I understand that the Americans claim that the casualties were small. Does the Prime Minister refute this? The House would like to have the information, because it is an essential element in the assessment which both he and the Foreign Secretary must have made. Whatever anxiety they may have expressed beforehand about the dangers of such an action, would it not have been wise at least to wait and see what happened before they dissociated themselves from it on these grounds?
The second reason was that it was likely to make an early move to a political solution more difficult. This would be a very important reason to take into account. What justification has the Prime Minister for saying that this is the case? What evidence is there for saying that this action is going to make it more difficult to get a political situation?
I was hoping that the Foreign Secretary would deal with this in some detail. I am disappointed that he said nothing about it. He said that he had weighed up the possibility of casualties and the difficulty of a political settlement against the military effects of the action, and decided to dissociate himself from it, but he gave no reason, no indication of his thinking, why this action should make it more difficult to achieve a political settlement.
I will give the House my view, which I gave in our debate at the beginning of February. I have always believed that only when the Vietcong and the North

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Vietnamese are convinced that they cannot win, and are convinced that a conference round the table is sincerely desired and is possible, shall we be able to get a settlement. The first of these, the need to convince them that they cannot win, can only be achieved by military means. To convince them of the sincerity of the President of the United States, and of the possibility of getting a conference round the table, is a matter for diplomatic action, and both these things therefore must be done together.
The first need, to convince them that they cannot win, presents both a military and a political problem. The first thing is that the Americans themselves must demonstrate that they are prepared to see this through to the end. [An HON. MEMBER: "What end?"] Until they can convince the Vietcong that they are not going to win.
Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose—
Mr. Heath: No. Until the Americans are able to do that, I do not believe that the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese will be prepared to go to the conference table.
Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose—
Mr. Heath: I am sorry, but I want to develop this argument. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] No. This is a difficult matter, and I want to mention some of the political problems which arise in this situation, because they are very relevant.
First, the Chinese and the North Vietnamese take a long-term view of human events and of human policies. They know full well that the United States is a great nation, a great power with immense resources, and that she is accustomed to quick results. One sees endless examples of this in all her domestic affairs. The Chinese believe that with these two different approaches time may be on their side, and that the Americans, confronted with this task, and confronted, moreover, with Congressional elections in 1966, with the Presidential election in 1968, and with the activities of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, may begin to wilt. The Chinese and the North Vietnamese may well hope that the Americans will weaken in their purpose. Above all, they hope that America's allies will desert.
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her. This is what they want to happen, and this is why, at this point, I believe that the action of the Government in dissociating themselves from this episode was damaging. It is of vital importance that the Chinese and North Vietnamese should realise that this is going to be seen through.
In that connection I want to take the Prime Minister up on his offer at Question Time the other day to state simply and clearly what is the Government's policy about arms for the United States and for the Commonwealth countries which have forces fighting in Vietnam. The whole House believes that there are many contradictions in the Government's policy. The Government support the fighting, and were doing so up to the point of bombing the fuel tanks, but apparently they are not prepared to provide the means for this.
I do not believe that the argument about the co-Chairmanship is valid, because it is well known that the other co-Chairman, Russia, is supplying arms to the opposing forces. The second contradiction, as we heard it from the Secretary of State for Defence, is that the Government will not ban arms to the United States, but they will not sell arms to them if they can be used in Vietnam. Therefore, the United States presumably cannot know what the Government are and are not prepared to sell them.
In a critical situation like this, how can the Government hope to carry through their policy of offsetting the costs of the F111 with arms sales when it is difficult for the United States to know what they can use if they cannot use them as the war goes on in Vietnam. I therefore ask the Prime Minister to clarify this and to deal with it specifically, not in terms of general policy, but recognising that at the moment, as the answers stand on the record, they are riddled with contradictions and need clarification urgently.
I should like to deal with the constructive side of this—what the Government ought to do. I believe that the Government must not weaken the position of the Commonwealth and of the United States in Vietnam. They must do everything possible to ensure that America will see it through. This means being prepared to deal with them on the question of equipment which is required for

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the purpose. Nor do I believe that it is a logical position to take up that they will supply defensive equipment, radar, radio, arid so on, but no other form of equipment, because in modern warfare it is almost impossible to distinguish between the two.
Secondly, the Government must show that an unconditional conference to obtain a peace settlement is immediately possible, and demonstrate that the United States President is sincere in his declaration, as I believe he is.
This brings us to the question of a political solution and the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow. I understand from the Press, which is very reliable in these matters, that the House knows of this visit by courtesy of the first edition of the Morning Star which announced:
"In today's Parliamentary debate on Vietnam, Mr. Wilson plans to announce his Intention of visiting Moscow shortly to talk to the Soviet Prime Minister, Mr. Kosygin."
The full story of what happened is related in The Guardian today, which said:
"All the signs are that he intended to announce his impending visit in the course of his speech today in the Common's debate on Vietnam.
He was headed off by the Communist news paper the 'Morning Star' (better known by its old name the 'Daily Worker') which carried a story in its early edition this morning declaring that Mr. Wilson was planning to announce a visit to Moscow during the Vietnam debate.
There followed a period of gobbling confusion in Whitehall which was only resolved by the publication of the Downing Street announcement.
In spite of this modest setback, the trick remains Mr. Wilson's. Though played prematurely, his trump card is likely to have an electrifying effect on today's debate. Mr. Wilson is not a man to eschew a move simply because it is clever."
We all know that.
This trump card is to have an electrifying effect on the debate, according to the Press, but not quite so electrifying as if it had been produced during the last five minutes of the Prime Minister's winding-up speech, which is the technique to which we have become well accustomed. Then he could have got his vote, and winged his way to Moscow, the whole Left-wing being bemused, and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale and his friends mentally flapping along with the Prime Minister like a group of old crows.
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The young eagles are the supporters—we must be quite clear about this—and the old crows are below the Gangway. [Interruption.] I want to deal with this aspect, because it is serious.
I must ask the Prime Minister whether he realises what the international effect of such tactics is with an important visit of this kind. It was known yesterday—not announced yesterday, but held up for his own winding-up speech at the end of the debate, and then forced out of him by a leak in the Morning Star late at night. Does he believe that this is the way to make an announcement of a presumably serious visit to Moscow to deal with this situation? Surely he must realise that this at least raises cynical doubts in the minds of observers overseas about what his real intentions are.
Secondly, how does his visit fit in with his action in dissociating himself from the American bombing of the fuel tanks? The Prime Minister's second reason for dissociating himself was that it would make it more difficult to get peace talks going. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is true.") If that is true, why does the Prime Minister immediately—as he must have done the day after—put in motion the machinery for starting peace talks again? Either he believes that this is going to make it more possible to get the co-Chairman to work with him or, if he believes that his reason for dissociating himself was that it would make it more difficult, he cannot have very great hopes from his visit to Moscow.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): If the right hon. Gentleman is concerned about the really grave issues of peace and the dangers of war here, and not with silly niggling points of the kind he has been making for the last 10 minutes, does he not agree that sometimes, instead of being so clever-clever about this visit to Moscow, there may be a situation when the very urgency—whatever the expectations—requires action? Perhaps he has experience only of starting activities of this kind, and not ending them.
Mr. Heath: I had experience in ending the Laotian negotiations, which led to a settlement at Geneva. I was at the Foreign Office with my right hon. Friend when this was brought about. If the

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Prime Minister says that this situation is brought about by the very urgency of the matter, the only thing which could create the urgency is the bombing by the Americans of Hanoi and Haiphong. This is the one hope that he has of persuading the Soviet Union that it should use more pressure to get Hanoi round the conference table. If he succeeds in this it will be because the Americans were prepared to take this action, and not because he dissociated himself from it.
Perhaps the Prime Minister should also tell the House whether the invitation to go to Moscow came from Mr. Kosygin, as the Foreign Secretary said, or, as the first reports suggested, the invitation was at the suggestion of the Prime Minister. It is important to know whether the Soviet Union started a peace move or, whether the Prime Minister suggested talks in Moscow.
The plain fact about the situation is that we are dealing with what I suppose are the toughest people in the world—the Russians and the Chinese—and with a very tough war indeed. It is a horrible war, and a tough war. What is required in this situation—and what the Foreign Secretary has said that he has been trying to do, and to do assiduously—is to sustain diplomacy continuously and extensively, using every means possible to get the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong round the conference table. I believe the Vietcong should be included. I do not believe that there should be any problem over them.
This requires constant action with others, such as the Poles, the Indians and the Canadians—and I know that the Foreign Secretary has been taking action in this respect—in order that the pressure can be continuous upon those concerned in the war to come round the table, having persuaded them that the Americans are serious about the military action which they are taking.
I do not believe that it is possible, by individual visits which are bound to be for only a short time, to achieve a settlement of a problem of this kind. It is just not possible; indeed, it may be damaging. It may be dangerous to raise hopes, and it may persuade those with whom we are dealing that we are playing from weakness and not from strength.
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All these factors require the utmost consideration in diplomatic activity, and that is why I ask the Prime Minister to take these fully into account.
The Prime Minister: Is the right hon. Gentleman against the visit?
Mr. Heath: I am not against the visit; I am pointing out that if the Prime Minister is to achieve anything it will be because of the action which has been taken and not because of his dissociation from it.
What I suspect is more likely to happen is that Mr. Kosygin will say, "You have dissociated yourself from this action. Very well, dissociate yourself from the whole thing". In that respect, the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale and his hon. Friends are right. That is likely to be the response which the Prime Minister will receive.
Mr. Orme: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if Britain were to dissociate herself entirely she would then be free to negotiate and help bring about a peace conference?
Mr. Heath: The Foreign Secretary has dealt with that point fully, and I agree with him. I am afraid that I do not agree with the hon. Member.
It is worth noting that in the Laotian negotiations the Soviet Union were able to act as Co-Chairmen because they maintained their influence over the Vietminh, and if they are able to help on this occasion it will be because they have maintained some influence over Hanoi, even if at the moment it is small. With the greatest respect to the Prime Minister and his Administration, I do not believe that they will maintain more influence over the Americans by dissociating themselves from American policy. Nor will the Soviet Union believe that they can maintain more influence.
The purpose of diplomacy must be—and I am not satisfied that it is happening—to work out the conditions for the conference itself. I had a long discussion about this in Stockholm with Mr. Rapacki, who was there on a visit, and believe that some other countries are well aware of this fact. It may well be that before the conference can be achieved the bombing will have to cease again. I would be quite prepared to see that requirement. But if that is so there must

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be safeguards for both sides—which there were not last time—about reinforcements. It was said in an intervention that the Americans were reinforcing. So were the Vietnamese, all the time. They were rebuilding bridges and military installations. It is not enough to say that there should he a conference at Geneva work must be done now on the conditions in which a cease-fire can be achieved, with safeguards for both sides and everybody involved so that they can have confidence in getting round the conference table.
There must be provision for verification, and for a continuing cease-fire while the conference goes on. In this I would not exclude the United Nations. I believe that it would be worth while for the Foreign Secretary to study what happened in the Korean War, and the processes which finally moved towards the ceasefire and the negotiations that took place in that war. They went through many of the same sort of experiences which the Foreign Secretary has had recently, but there finally came a point when, at the right time, resolutions were passed at the United Nations. It is noteworthy that the United States has inscribed this item on the agenda.
At the right time the resolutions were passed and then, in a broadcast from Mr. Malik at the United Nations, the final proposals were made for the ceasefire and the peace conference. It took a long time—I agree with the Prime Minister about that—and here one hopes that it will not take so long. But it is worth studying the processes that we went through at the United Nations at that time, which finally led to the broadcast and to the proposal—which was accepted—the cease-fire and then the conference.
Then it is necessary to work out the form of settlement which is possible. I am not certain that much has been done on this. As the Foreign Secretary said, it is customary to say, "Very well—back to Geneva and 1954." I am not certain that this is the answer, nor does the Government's own Motion carry very much conviction when it calls for
"a settlement which would enable the peoples of North and South Vietnam to determine their own future and which would ensure that the whole country became neutral …".
It is impossible to reconcile people determining their own future and prejudging
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it by saying that they must be neutral. If they are to be neutral, they cannot —[Interruption.]—if neutrality is to be imposed on them, they cannot be determining their own future—[An hon. Member: "What about Austria?"] This was done with Austria because Austria willingly accepted it.
The real question at issue now is, after this conflict and the expenditure of life and money, are South Vietnam and North Vietnam prepared just to go back to 1954 at Geneva on a basis of neutrality? This is a major problem which requires grave consideration—
Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose—
Mr. Heath: After all, in 1954 Geneva was not signed by the United States or by Vietnam and it was not binding on them—
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Oh.
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman may have some other view, but at least it raises doubts about a solution which merely went back to Geneva, 1954.
Therefore, I would suggest that, if the Foreign Secretary and the Government are thinking in terms of neutrality, they will have to conceive far more satisfactory arrangements for securing it than we were able to get over Laos. As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, Laos is not today maintaining its neutrality. That neutrality is being breached by the North Vietnamese reinforcements coming down the Ho Chi Minh trail. If there is to be a solution on this basis, the work must be done to find a more satisfactory way of ensuring neutrality. I believe that much better arrangements must be found than we found in Laos for the withdrawal of the armed participants in this conflict.
I say this because I do not believe that, after a war of this length and this cruelty, either the Americans or the South Vietnamese will be satisfied simply to go back to Geneva and the arrangements of 1954. If the countries choose something other than neutrality—some form of independence—there must be some means of guaranteeing it which is satisfactory to both sides. There could, of course, be provision for unification later, but the work ought to be done

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with the other powers as to how this will be achieved—
Mr. William Molloy: This is an interesting point and we are coming to the nub of the problem. Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what he is saying is, of course, very important, but what began in 1954 and led to 1956 was wholly and utterly destroyed by the attitude of the South Vietnamese in not responding to the appeals to have free elections?
Mr. Heath: This is a point which has always been argued very strongly and with which the Foreign Secretary dealt, but I do not wish to use my time on either side of this position. What I am trying to deal with is the problems which face us now.
The points which I have been raising, I believe, are important. If it is possible, in order to secure a conference, not only to say that it would be unconditional but also to give an indication, as far as possible, of what sort of settlement would be acceptable, this could have an influence on the process of the war and help to bring it to an end at an earlier stage. That is why I am urging the Foreign Secretary, with his allies, to do this work now.
I hope that these have been constructive points on the whole question of how to reach a political settlement once it is clear that this is the will of those at the moment taking part in this cruel war. I have indicated, therefore, that we regret the decision of the Prime Minister to dissociate himself and the Government from the recent United States measures, and particularly without consultation with the Commonwealth. I believe that it was not justifiable on the events themselves. I do not believe that the reasons put forward by the Government gave them a justifiable basis for doing it.
In fact, I believe that it made nonsense of the Government's previous policy and I believe that their arms policy is riddled with contradictions which must, in fairness to the House and to our allies, be cleared up as early as possible. I believe that, in dissociating themselves as they have done, the Government have affronted our friends and allies. It yet remains to be seen whether they have gained anything from those who are op-
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posed to us, whether in Moscow, in Peking or in Hanoi.
Of course, we hope that the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow will at least give him the opportunity of explaining his Government's view clearly there and of getting the co-Chairmanship into action again. We have constantly urged that, and of course we want to see it in action, because we believe that it is one means, but a very important one, of preparing for a conference when it is possible. We believe that our allies in the United States and the Commonwealth should be supported in the interests of the Vietnamese, of the Commonwealth and of the West as a whole.
Also, from my own experiences in January, I believe that all the Asian countries do not want to see an American withdrawal. They do not want to see subversion triumph in South Vietnam. What they do want to see is the war brought to an end and an honourable settlement which will prevent subversion. Every one of them in his heart of hearts knows that this is what he wants.
This is a horrible war. We all know this. Those of us who have been in Vietnam have seen the poverty of the people and the squalor in which so many of them still live—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the American prostitutes.
Mr. Heath: That one would not have expected to hear. Refugees are trying to rebuild their homes and are helped by young Americans who are prepared to give up their own careers and go there to do it—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has the right hon. Gentleman read yesterday's Times?
Mr. Heath Mr. Heath rose—
Mr. Emrys Hughes Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) must not persist if the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) does not give way.
Mr. Heath: People flying over the country have seen the villages in which they know that the Vietcong have assassinated the headmen and are tyrannising the villagers—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Prostitution in Saigon.
Mr. Heath: Outside Saigon, I have seen the training—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Inside Saigon.
Mr. Heath: —of the South Vietnamese to carry on in the villages some form of government organisation and some form of civilian activity. I have seen them going out after their training to stand firmly against all the challenges they find, at great risk to their own lives.
Anyone who has seen that wants to see the war brought to an end as early as possible, but I do not believe that that is enough. We must face the fact that these unpleasant military actions have to be taken and, of course, each one must be considered on its merits. Our argument with the Government is that we do not believe that this was an action which justified the dissociation which they have now made. We believe that we should continue to support the present action of the United States and the Commonwealth in Vietnam, because their policies have not deserved condemnation—
Mrs. Anne Kerr Mrs. Anne Kerr rose—
Mr. Heath Mr. Heath: —and that they merit our support in the interests of the Vietnamese—
Mrs. Kerr Mrs. Kerr rose—
Hon. Members: Order.
Mr. Heath Mr. Heath: —and of the Commonwealth and of this country itself—
Mrs. Kerr Mrs. Kerr rose—
Mr. James Dickens rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman must not persist in interrupting if the right hon. Gentleman does not give way.
Mr. Heath: I am sorry that the hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman do not agree with me, but I am entitled to put the view that the policies at present being carried on in Vietnam deserve our support. It is for the support of the Vietnamese and the Commonwealth countries which are geographically so close to Vietnam as well as in the interests of this country as a whole.
5.19 p.m.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I am grateful to the Government for having yielded to the wishes of the House and for having given us this debate. I agree with what the Leader of the Opposition said about Standing Order No. 9 and I hope that early changes will be made. I also agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said about the use of the United Nations and what happened in Korea in 1953. What was done then should, as he proposed, be studied.
I disagree very strongly with the Leader of the Opposition about the Geneva settlement of 1954. If there has been a hope of peace in recent years, it is because all the major parties concerned have been making the Geneva Agreements the basis of what they have been proposing for a settlement now. I therefore believe that if these Agreements were now torn up and thrown away, the task of making peace would be incomparably more difficult than it otherwise will be.
I will not rehearse again the Government's long record of efforts to bring peace to war-torn Vietnam If they had been in office two years sooner, the course of history might perhaps have changed. They have clung to the essential proposition—which, if I understand them, some hon. Gentlemen opposite still deny—that military force cannot settle the Vietnam question and that only a political solution, freely accepted, is any good.
On the basis of long and sad experience in international affairs, I have had the deep conviction these last 10 days that the present crisis is very dangerous indeed, more genuinely dangerous than the Cuba missile crisis of 1962. War is reducing Vietnam to an ugly desert. Its economy and its Government administration are breaking down. Its ancient culture and morality are being submerged. Did hon. Members read the article in The Times yesterday, to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) referred, in which it was stated that under the steeply rising pressure of inflation, even the most respectable families in Saigon were being compelled to put their daughters out to prostitution? Could there be a more squalid index of the chaos and degradation that prevails? And now, with the latest form of bombing, we face a true confrontation of the

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major Powers, with possible disasters at any moment that no one can foresee.
How have we reached this crisis? How has the United States, with the highest motives, become involved in this ghastly enterprise? I argued in our last debate that the official State Department history of Vietnamese events in recent years was open to doubt. According to that version, the Geneva Conference of 1954 set up two sovereign States, in North and South, with the 17th Parallel as the international frontier between them. All went well under the South Vietnamese Prime Minister, Diem. The South prospered and was at peace, until the Government of Hanoi started their aggressive war, sending troops, supplies and general staff to destroy the democratic Government of the South and to impose their own tyrannical form of Communism on the unwilling people there.
But the history has not been like that. I will not repeat the arguments I used in our last debate. I urged that the real cause of the Vietcong revolt in 1960, of the bitter struggle which has gone on since then, of the stubborn hostility and suspicion of the Government of Hanoi, lay in Diem's repudiation of the elections which the Geneva Conference had ordained for 1956, and in his failure to honour the amnesty promised to the millions of people in South Vietnam who had fought for or who had supported the Vietminh against the French. By those acts, Diem destroyed the whole system on which the Geneva Conference had agreed.
When the Internation Commission of Control protested, Diem set a gang of ruffians to burn down their hotel. Having denounced the amnesty, he proceeded to the systematic persecution of those whom he regarded as his opponents—prison, torture, shooting and repression of every form. It was to protect themselves against this savage tyranny that the Vietcong took up arms in self-defence—and the movement was strong and active before Hanoi came in.
That view of how the war began, which is vital to our argument today, has been powerfully supported by two different sources since our last debate. A special
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correspondent of The Times was recently in Vietnam. He wrote on 24th March:
"When the former Vietminh sympathisers again took up arms, spurred on by Diem's campaign of repression, they were fighting an indigenous Government."
"Spurred on by Diem's campaign of repression"—that is the case I made.
The case is strengthened by other evidence. Early this year a group of eminent Americans, lawyers and historians, among them Quincy Wright, presented a memorandum to President Johnson. The memorandum was prepared by professors of law, of international law and of history at the Universities of Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Texas and others. They had made the most meticulous researches into the history of events in Vietnam since 1954. Their collective authority was great. They reached the following conclusion:
"It is an historical fact that the refusal to hold the elections prescribed by the Geneva Accords, coupled with the reign of terror and suppression instituted by the Diem regime, precipitated the Civil War".
If I insist on this view of what has happened in the last 12 years in South Vietnam, it is because this is the basic explanation of the present difficulty in getting the Government of Hanoi to come to the conference table. That Government are bitterly suspicious because they believe that, with American connivance, they were cheated and deceived in 1954.
There is another aspect of this history which is dealt with in great detail in this American lawyers' memorandum. It is the legal rights and wrongs in international law of American policy in the last 12 years.
I say at once that I have never doubted that this policy has sprung from a national conviction that American strength should be used to uphold world law against aggression and so to establish a firm basis for permanent world peace. I have never doubted that it is for that high purpose that American soldiers are dying in Vietnam and that the American President, with bitter reluctance and misgiving, is allowing them to die.
But these American lawyers raise the question of whether their Government's policy has not gravely undermined the binding force of international law and of

717
the treaties in which so much of it is enshrined. Their covering letter to the President stated:
"For the reasons documented in our Memorandum, the Committee has reached the regrettable but inescapable conclusion that the actions of the United States in Vietnam contravene the essential provisions of the United Nations Charter, to which we are bound by Treaty; violate the Geneva Accords, which we pledged to observe; and are not sanctioned by the Treaty creating the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation."
Here is the answer to the Leader of the Opposition on whether the Americans should recognise and feel themselves to be bound by the Geneva Agreements. These lawyers quote the pledge given to the Geneva Conference by the U.S. delegate, General Bedell Smith. In his statement he
"… took note of the Geneva Agreements and declared that the United States would refrain from the threat or use of force to disturb them in accordance with Article 2(4) of the Charter of the United Nations."
The memorandum goes on to show that, by General Bedell Smith's declaration, the U.S. Government
"… recognised that Vietnam was a single nation"
and that therefore the conflict in Vietnam is a civil war, and not an agression by a foreign sovereign state upon its neighbour. Let me elaborate the point about the Charter by quoting from another American lawyer, once at Harvard and one of the United Nations delegates sent by President Truman. Speaking of Vietnam, Mr. Cohen said:
"In recent years there has been an attempt to justify the evisceration of the law of the Charter on the ground that the Charter does not forbid the use of force by one State at the request of the recognised Government of another State to quell a rebellion. Such a libertarian construction of the Charter does violence to the spirit and the letter of the Charter. The armed intervention of one State in the civil war in another State, whether at the request of the established Government or its rival Government, is in fact the use of force by the intervening State in its international relations…. If we continue to accept this abandonment of the basic law of the Charter, requiring all nations, large and small, to seek in good faith peaceful settlement through the processes of the United Nations before resorting to war, we shall have allowed the very heart to be torn from the Charter."
Mr. Alfred Morris: Since my right hon. Friend is an expert on the United Nations Organisation, would he agree that the
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Secretary-General, on behalf of the United Nations, should now have some part in resolving this dreadful and worsening conflict in Vietnam? Further, would he accept that it might now be better if small Powers rather than great Powers were Co-Chairmen of the Geneva Conference? Could he give the House his view on that proposal?
Mr. Noel-Baker: On the second point, say at once that I have always had grave doubts about this new system of joint great Power chairmanship. It has not worked very well in these Geneva Conferences, in my opinion, and it has worked extremely badly in the Committee of 18, where it has been a formula for deadlock. On the use of the United Nations, I agree with my hon. Friend that the services of the Secretary-General might be of supreme importance. I wish I had the time to elaborate how I think it could be done.
I was talking about the legal aspects of the policy of the United States. I have insisted on these legal issues which these eminent American lawyers have raised, because the rule of law in international affairs is, as we all know, humanity's last hope. In view of the supreme importance of the Issues I have raised, I hope that the Government will refer them to the Law Officers of the Crown for their advice.
I turn to the bombing. There are legal questions that could be asked about the United States bombing, both of North and South Vietnam; but it is the political and military results of the bombing in North Vietnam that are of urgent significance today—
Mr. Neil Marten: Before the right hon. Gentleman gets on to this extremely important point, which is the main part of the debate, is he not somewhat surprised not to see a Foreign Office spokesman on his own Front Bench listening to this important debate?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I know that the Prime Minister has been here for some time, and I know the other engagements he has today. I hope, perhaps, that one of his hon. Friends will call some of my remarks to his attention. Incidentally, I may say that I am answering the Leader of the Opposition, and I am very sorry that he has not been in his place for a single moment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is

719
he?"]—he was not even here for my preliminary remarks, which were addressed specifically to him.
Why did the bombing ever start? The Leader of the Opposition told us that it was to stop the infiltration of recruits and arms and ammunition along the Ho Chi Minh trail. There were lots of U.S. generals who told us quickly that it was futile, that it did not check the traffic by a single man or by a single gun. It soon developed into general interdiction bombing—the smashing of bridges, railways, road junctions, and the rest.
The other day, Mr. David English of the Daily Express told us something of this interdiction bombing. He had talked last month with the U.S. pilots in Vietnam who were doing the job. One of them said, "We're using planes that cost millions of dollars—the most complex war machines ever developed—to bomb wooden bridges, which by next week will be rebuilt." Another said, "We lose planes, for nothing." They have lost about 1,000 up to date. Other pilots said, "We've got to hit North Vietnam in the heartland to make any impact." That sentence, coming from the American Air Force, should surely give us pause. Who was it who first hit nations in their heartland as a means of making war?
President Johnson has not yet hit North Vietnam in its heartland, but he has gone, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Raymond Fletcher) said the other day, from interdiction to strategic bombing. Interdiction bombing, as the pilots told Mr. English has been a total failure. It not only failed to stop the traffic in men and arms, but it induced Hanoi—perhaps compelled Hanoi—to increase the traffic by many times. Mr. McNamara tells us that the trail is now a paved road, constantly enlarged by bulldozers and coolie labour, and that 1,500 lorries pass up and down it every night. New recruits have increased in number by 150 per cent. since last year. The Vietcong have more efficient small arms and they are now getting heavy weapons sent to them by the Chinese. All that is the direct result of the bombing of North Vietnam.
The bombing of the trail and the interdiction bombing were a failure, so the President turned to strategic bombing of
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the oil. And there are hints that, if bombing oil should also fail, other measures will be taken: the bombing of the port of Haiphong, the mining of its approaches, a close blockade of all of North Vietnam by the American Navy. What happens if, when the port is bombed, a Russian ship is sunk—a Russian ship, engaged in legal trading under international law, sunk by the forces of a Government that have not even made a declaration of war?
Just a year ago the Prime Minister told the House that
"… this is a war which carries with it the gravest danger of escalation; of extension to the point where we might within a very short period of time, see it extended to become a major land war on the Asian mainland."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th July, 1965; Vol. 716, c. 1134.]
It may be that we are on the eve of that escalation. Let hon. Members read and ponder the statements issued from the Kremlin and Peking, the speeches of Marshal Malinovski and Chou En-lai. Let them remember that General MacArthur scoffed at the warnings given by China in Korea in 1950. He said that they could do nothing they were too weak. His ill-judged blunder cost us three more years of war.
There is a still more sinister prospect opened by the bombing of Haiphong and Hanoi. There are hints, perhaps more than hints, that the U.S. Government are seeking now a military victory, victory which would leave them with the bases, larger than Singapore, which they have constructed in Thailand and Vietnam. Thank God, our Government have said clearly—and I hope the House will say it today—that victory may bring death to Vietnam, but it can never bring peace to South-East Asia.
Let us remember—I wish the Leader of the Opposition were here to listen—what was said last week by a leading Indian, friendly to the West, to Mr. Harrison Salisbury of the New York Times:
"Doesn't America understand that, regardless of our personal sympathies, Asia is never again going to permit a white man to win a war on our continent."
There is another doubt about the latest developments of U.S. policy. In December, 1963, President Johnson, fresh from witnessing the murder at his side of his

721
President in Dallas, said to the United Nations General Assembly:
"The United States want to see the cold war end once and for all … The United States wants to co-operate with all the members of this Organisation to conquer everywhere the ancient enemies of man—hunger, disease and ignorance."
But now in every speech Mr. McNamara evokes the picture of an arms race which will never end. He exhorts us all to go on building up our armaments against the danger that China will present 20 years from now. He does not ask why China is beginning—by Western standards, very slowly—to prepare for war. He simply evokes the Kaiser's "Yellow Peril" of the past. Are we really to let the arms race run for 20 years, with the certain knowledge that China will be militarised as thoroughly and dangerously as Japan was militarised before the last world war, but with China having seven times the manpower and resources which Japan possessed?
There is a cloud of witnesses, many on the Right, who attest that China has no plan for territorial expansion. For many years the Kremlin has been preaching that revolution cannot be exported, and that peaceful coexistence is imposed on every nation by the facts of modern life. True, China is now inciting the Government of Hanoi to stand out against a conference and a negotiated peace, and Hanoi listens. We all regret it. I personally believe that another three weeks of bombing pause would have brought a conference in January last.
I wish that Hanoi would now come to the conference table. But we must understand Hanoi's position. As I have tried to put it this afternoon, they feel that they were cheated by the scrapping of the Geneva plans of 1954. They remember their tentative consent to talk in 1963; again in 1964; again in 1965; and how they were rebuffed. Every time the President repeats an offer of unconditional discussions, someone—Mr. McNamara, Mr. Rusk, Mr. Bundy or it may be Air Vice-Marshal Ky—puts forward some condition that Hanoi cannot accept—some condition about the status of the N.L.F. at the conference table, about the ultimate unity of Vietnam, about the neutrality of the country, or about some other vital point. And of course Hanoi will not negotiate while
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the bombing goes on. They are deeply suspicious, bitterly resentful—as resentful as we were when Hitler was bombing Britain in 1940 and 1941.
Mr. Anthony Royle: Is it not also true that Hanoi would not negotiate when the bombing ceased, and it ceased for over 40 days?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I know something of what happened in the five weeks of the bombing pause. I received some new information from interested countries in the course of the last week-end. I say I believe Hanoi would have negotiated if the bombing pause had been prolonged for another two or three weeks. It is only by opinion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—because negotiations were going on which were broken off when the bombing started.
Mr. Royle: Who was negotiating?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I will tell the hon. Member the source of my information afterwards. I am under pledge not to reveal it here.
Dr. David Kerr: Will my right hon. Friend allow me to say that those on this side of the House respect his integrity enough to accept his word?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. That is my information.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Can the right hon. Member at least give us the assurance that if he has this important information he is divulging it to the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes of course I have given it to the Foreign Secretary and I hope it may be useful. But I add my conviction that, if, after the Baltimore speech made by President Johnson on 7th April last year, after his talk with the Foreign Secretary, when he first proposed unconditional discussions, if then the bombing had ceased even for 10 days, a negotiation might well have happened. The bombing is, and has been, a vital factor in the hardening of the will of the Hanoi Government to carry on the fight.
As the long months of war have inflamed the hatreds and the passions, the task of the Prime Minister in acting as a mediator has become more difficult with both sides. But I believe his present moves are wise and right. He has sounded

723
the world alarm about the strategic bombing close to Haiphong and Hanoi. He has said in finally decisive terms: "No British troops for Vietnam". He has declared, now and always: "Victory can never be the answer for either side." He has seen the Prime Ministers of France and Australia. He is going now to see the Kremlin. All that is wise and right.
I hope that a few days later he will take to Washington a message from Britain, from the Commonwealth, and from the common people of every land—the message that we cannot go on living in this seething turmoil of competing military preparation, vituperative propaganda, constantly repeated confrontations, escalating war. Mankind must call a halt and turn back quickly 'to the law and to the policies of the Charter, which, as its Preamble declares, enshrines the hopes of those who died in two world wars. This is the Prime Minister's date with history, and the House and the nation will wish him well.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. Sandys: The Foreign Secretary made an unusual speech today. He addressed almost all his remarks to his own back benchers. He spent most of his time justifying support of American policy; and with that I fully agree. The House must have been struck by the fact that the Foreign Secretary said hardly anything to justify the reversal of the Government's policy and their decision to dissociate themselves from recent American action. I gained the impression that the Foreign Secretary had very little sympathy with that decision. It was, I believe, dictated, not by any principle of foreign policy, but by domestic party considerations.
Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it has been the stated policy of the Government over a long period of time that they would dissociate themselves from any action which would involve the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong?
Mr. Sandys: I will try to deal with those points as I go along. I must not take up too much of the time of the House.
We on this side utterly deplore the Government's decision to censure the United States, for that is what they have
724
done, for delivering a counter-attack upon a perfectly legitimate military target. We consider that Britain should continue to give the Americans full moral support in their resistance against aggression.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Military help?
Mr. Sandys: I said "moral support". Nobody is suggesting military intervention. That is not the argument.
There are many good reasons for backing the Americans. The principal reason is that we cannot afford to allow any further extension of Communist military power anywhere in the world, whether it be Russian or Chinese. That is why Britain is a member of a chain of defensive alliances which stretch around the globe—N.A.T.O., LENTO, and S.E.A.T.O. We and other Commonwealth countries joined those alliances, not because of any ideological prejudice, but solely for the purpose of creating a system of collective security against a common danger.
The question is sometimes asked: what interest has Britain in South Vietnam? What do we know or care about that far-off land? Some of us remember that Neville Chamberlain adopted much the same attitude in regard to Czechoslovakia at the time of Munich.
Mr. Zilliacus: Who backed him? You.
Hon. Members: Shame.
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Gentleman has, I think, aimed at the wrong target. Those of us who opposed Neville Chamberlain at that time—there are still quite a few of us left in the House—emphasised that the issue was a much bigger one than the fate of one small country. Nothing less than the freedom of the whole of Europe was at stake. I maintain that the same is true today in Vietnam. This is not just a battle for South Vietnam. It is a struggle for the freedom of the whole of Asia.
If South Vienam is to be considered expendable, why should not Laos, Cambodia and Siam be abandoned in the same way? Are we to allow Communist China, directly or by proxy, to absorb one by one all the countries in this area? And why should it end there? Once South-East Asia has been over-run, what chance is there for Malaysia or for Singapore? What hope is there for Burma?

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What would be the effect upon India if she became threatened by China, not only from the North, as she already is, but from the East as well? How long would it take the Chinese to subvert or subjugate Indonesia, whose chain of island territories reaches right to the doorstep of Australia? We must draw he line somewhere. At some point or another we must say, "So far and no Further."
Mr. Archie Manuel rose—
Mr. Eric S. Heffer rose—
Mr. Sandys: I would like to develop my argument. Many hon. Members wish o speak. The Americans decided to make a stand in Vietnam. I am sure they were right, because, if you decide to resist, the sooner you do it the better. If Vietnam had been allowed to fall without a fight, the task of defending the other countries would have been incomparably more difficult, both militarily and psychologically.
We should also bear in mind that Vietnam's neighbours, who would be next on the list, are members or associate members of S.E.A.T.O. If they were attacked, the British Government could not just sit back and criticise the Americans. Britain and her fellow allies would have to go to the defence of those countries—then it would be a question of military support—or, alternatively, justify the Chinese jibe that S.E.A.T.O. is nothing but a paper tiger.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman now says that he agrees with military support. Would he agree that this country should send military support, and is he prepared to advocate conscription for this purpose?
Mr. Sandys: That is the biggest red herring I have seen for a very long time. All I had said was that we were members of an alliance and that our obligations under that alliance would be invoked if a series of other countries were attacked—not Vietnam. Vietnam does not come within the scope of the alliance.
Then there is the Commonwealth side of this problem. The present Government have shown themselves ever ready to trim their policies to keep in line with African and Asian thoughts and emo-
726
tions. I am not criticising them for that. But when it comes to Australia and New Zealand, whose troops are fighting side by side with the Americans, the British Government do not hesitate to condemn the conduct of operations which the Australian and New Zealand Governments have unequivocally supported.
The Foreign Secretary said that in deciding to reverse their policy the Government had had to weigh two matters. The first was casualties. The second was the effect upon the prospects of a political solution. The Prime Minister in his statement the other day said that the bombing of the oil installations might result in heavy loss of civilian life. Like my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I want to ask why the Prime Minister did not wait to see whether his fears were justified before reversing his policy. [Interruption.] What did you say?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman must not incite another hon. Member to make an intervention that he was not proposing to make.
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) said something that I did not quite hear and he usually speaks with great wisdom.
Why did not the Prime Minister wait and see whether there were heavy casualties before reversing his policy? His action did not affect the bombing. He could easily have waited. So far as I know, there is as yet no evidence that there have been heavy casualties. Moreover, it is now reported that Hanoi is to be completely evacuated. In that case, the danger of casualties will be reduced to the absolute minimum.
If it is confirmed that Hanoi is to be evacuated, will the Prime Minister change his mind? Will he reconsider his hasty decision? That is the test of his sincerity. It will show whether he is motivated by humanitarian or political considerations. Frankly—and this is the occasion for speaking frankly on both sides—I do not believe that the Prime Minister is so much worried by the casualties in Hanoi as by the danger of casualties in the ranks of his own party here in the House of Commons.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Dr. David Kerr: The right hon. Gentleman is trying to crawl his way back
Mr. Sandys: I have very little doubt that, but for the attitude adopted by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) and his friends, the Prime Minister would have gone "all the way with L.B.J.". The right hon. Gentleman, in his efforts to excuse his decision, told us that he had warned President Johnson of what he was going to do. I suppose it is nice to be told beforehand by one's friend that he is going to stab one in the back, but it hurts no less when he does it. Nor is it any more excusable.
The second argument which has been advanced is that the intensification of the bombing is likely to prejudice the prospects of a political settlement. To a large extent I think that the Foreign Secretary answered his own argument. He told us at considerable length—no doubt in order to impress his hon. Friends—that the Americans had done everything humanly possible to encourage the other side to open talks, that they had shown almost incredible patience and restraint, that for a long time they had restricted their bombing attacks and had twice stopped bombing altogether, and that they had offered to sit down and negotiate without pre-conditions of any kind. He said that there was no helpful response from Hanoi and that if talks had not taken place it was not the fault of the United States.
It is, therefore, no good suggesting that, but for the bombing last week, a peace settlement was just around the corner. In my opinion, the stepping up of military activity is more likely to bring negotiations nearer than the reverse. The Foreign Secretary rightly placed importance on the Geneva Agreement and I understand that the purpose of the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow is to try to persuade Russia, as co-Chairman, to agree to reconvening the Geneva Conference. If that is the purpose of his visit, I wish him every success. But, like my right hon. Friend, I ask why the Prime Minister thinks this is a propitious moment for this new initiative.
Why does the right hon. Gentleman think the Russians will now be prepared to consider reconvening the conference after they have persistently refused to do so for so long? What new develop-
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ment has there been which has changed their minds? The only new development has been the intensification of the American bombing in Vietnam. If the Prime Minister thinks that this has made Moscow more favourable to negotiations, may it not perhaps have the same effect on Hanoi? Is it not possible that, when the authorities in North Vietnam realise that they are not going to win by force, they may become more disposed to sit down at the conference table?
I cannot foretell what will happen. But it may well be that, before long, the world will be thankful that the Americans have brought things to a head in this way and that the Prime Minister will be deeply regretting his foolish and unworthy decision.
6.7 p.m.
Mr. William Hamilton: The right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) has made a typically squalid speech. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wandsworth, Central (Dr. David Kerr) remarked, he should work his way back to the Opposition Front Bench instead of trying to crawl back by the kind of remarks he made today about the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. To talk about the Prime Minister as being less concerned with casualties in Vietnam than with casualties on this side of the House is unworthy of any hon. Member and the right hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of himself for making that kind of speech in a very delicate and very serious world situation.
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary defended and justified the position that the Government took up last week. The right hon. Gentleman may not have agreed with the argument, but it is foolish and dishonest of him to say that the Foreign Secretary made no attempt to do so. My right hon. Friend pointed out that it was a matter of judgment as to whether the advantage gained from this escalation of the war would be more than outweighed by the disadvantages resulting from possibly an extension of the war and the intrusion into it of China, with the resulting prospects of a world war.
On balance, the Government, rightly or wrongly, came down on the side of limiting the escalation. The logic of the position taken up by the right hon.

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Member for Streatham and of the rest of the Opposition is that they are prepared to go all the way with the Americans even to the extent of sending British troops.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Who said so?
Mr. Hamilton: That is the logic of their position. The Opposition would go all the way, even to the use of nuclear weapons and poison gas. I remind the House that the Second World War was limited in its escalation. Both sides refused to use poison gas. In every war there comes a point when someone has to say, "We shall not use this weapon". Last week I asked the right hon. Member for Streatham whether he was prepared to accept the logic of the situation and the Leader of the Opposition has been asked today if he is prepared to do so. He has steadfastly refused to do so.
Dr. David Kerr: In the Second World War we used the atom bomb, and certainly, had Fascist Germany had the bomb, there is every reason to suppose that escalation might not have been prevented.
Mr. Hamilton: That may be so, but no side used gas and the important point here is that, even when the war started in 1939, both sides were in possession of extremely lethal gases but neither side used them.
Lord Balniel rose—
Mr. Hamilton: I have a lot to say.
The problem which we are discussing.s the most intractable international problem which the world faces, and nobody can be quite sure whether the position which he is taking up is right and whether he has the solution to it. But I hope that there is no difference in the aim of every hon. Member and of everyone in the country—to stop the lighting and to provide a political framework in which the Vietnamese people can work out their own problems in their own way, even if they want a Communist Government. It is their problem, and if that is their solution they have a right to it.
There are differences on this side of he House, and I hope that there are differences among hon. Members opposite, because anybody who feels and thinks deeply about these things must put different emphasis on different aspects of
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the problem and the solutions to it. The first method of dealing with it is the United States method of unremitting escalation of the war, and there is support for that policy by the Tory Party. The Tories have condemned the Labour Party and the Government for "ratting" on the United States last week.
At the moment the Leader of the Tory Party is cutting a very sorry and despicable figure these dog days. He is being led by the right hon. Member for Streatham on Rhodesia and other matters. For the Leader of the Opposition no issue is too trivial or too serious for him to resist the temptation to seek to make a bit of party political capital. He is rapidly becoming punch-drunk. His days at the head of his party must be seriously numbered.
I return to asking the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), who is to wind up on behalf of the Opposition, to answer the question: "At what point are the Opposition prepared to say 'No further'?" Are they prepared to go all the way, as I have indicated? I leave that proposition and now turn to the opposition to the Government's policy within our own party, and it is as well to face it.
There are the advocates of a United Kingdom policy of outright and unconditional condemnation of the United States. Indeed, when the relevant Motion appeared on Thursday night, or early Friday morning, it came to me in the Library about 3 o'clock in the morning and I read it and refused to sign it on the ground that it was much too one-sided. We get the Trafalgar Square demonstrations, the Hyde Park demonstrations, the marches to Downing Street, the marches to the United States Embassy, telegrams, letters and visits to the United States and elsewhere, all very well organised. I admire the tenacity and vigour with which these campaigns are conducted. But I wish that they would be much more objective than they have been up to now. They are a little one-sided. If there had been a bit more objectivity in apportioning the blame and a more positive approach and the putting of positive alternative proposals, I would have been rather more sympathetic to what the people with these views were trying to do.
Mr. Stephen Hastings rose—
Mr. Hamilton: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Simply to condemn the Americans and to condemn the United Kingdom Government for not condemning the Americans is not enough. These people might argue—I believe that they do argue, and I hope that I am not being unfair—that if bombing stopped negotiations could begin. Hanoi has never said that; Peking has never said that; but they have said that. The bombing stopped—and negotiations never got off the ground.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) said that he had evidence that if the cessation in bombing had gone on for another three weeks negotiations would have started. We are entitled to have that evidence. I hope that it is right—[Interruption.]—because if it is it might have some considerable effect on future American policy. It might have an effect if there is sound and irrefutable evidence that that is the case. I do not believe it. If my right hon. Friend has the evidence, he should lay it before the House so that we can see it.
Mr. Orme: Is my hon. Friend saying that my right hon. Friend is a liar?
Mr. Hamilton: No. I profoundly hope that he is right, but if he says on the Floor of the House that he has evidence, we are entitled to know the secret.
The second argument which is used is that if United States troops withdrew now from Vietnam negotiations could then start. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) interjected in the Foreign Secretary's speech to say that this was not their position. I am glad that it is not, because it would be completely unrealistic. The Americans would never and could never accept it.
Mr. Mendelson: I never said that.
Mr. Hamilton: I think Hanoi said it.
Mr. Mendelson: No.
Mr. Hamilton: I think that Hanoi said it.
Mr. Mendelson: No.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot argue by running commentary.
Mr. Orme: On a point of order. The hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William
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Hamilton) is making provocative statements to Members on this side of the House and doing so in such a way that he is trying to put a case about which he knows nothing himself and is trying to put our case.
Mr. Speaker: Parliament is a place where provocative statements are made.
Mr. Hamilton: They are not unknown, Mr. Speaker.
A further argument which is put is that the association of the British Government with United States policies prevents or makes less likely the reconvening of the Geneva Conference, that it somehow increases the intransigence of Hanoi and Peking. I do not think that there is any evidence whatever to suggest that that is so. The two things which prevent the reconvening of the Geneva Conference are that the Chinese do not want it—I think that they want America bogged in a land war in Asia, and we in this country have somehow to get the Americans off that particular hook—and, secondly, the Russians dare not suggest reconvening the Geneva Conference lest they be charged by China with playing up to the imperialists of the West. The fact that the United Kingdom is associated with the Americans has no influence whatever on whether the Geneva Conference is reconvened.
Another argument is that rejection by the British Government of United States policies would improve our moral stature, that at least we would be able to stick out our chests and hold up our heads and strike a posture of moral propriety. I take the view that the Pontius Pilates of this world make no great contribution to the solution of its manifold problems. We just cannot and should not contract out of them, and nor have we tried to do so.
I believe that our Government of all Governments in the world have done more in the last two years to try to solve this problem. But they have received rebuffs from Hanoi and from Moscow and possibly from Washington when the Prime Minister has gone there. They have certainly received them in the House of Commons from the Tory Party, and the Prime Minister has been accused of gimmickry and of gamesmanship and of ratting, in this inelegant phrase of the right hon. Member for

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Streatham, who has followed the Leader of the Tory Party, and he has been accused of double-talk and all the rest.
I hope and pray and I believe that the Government must and will persist in getting the opposing parties round the conference table. None of us can be happy with the senseless bloodshed that is going on in Vietnam at this moment. Let no one in the House doubt the sincerity of any other hon. Member because we disagree with the points they are putting forward. We are all seeking the same objective, and I hope to God that we succeed before long.
6.20 p.m.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: As the Foreign Secretary said, I think we can take it for granted that everyone in this House wants peace in Vietnam. I had some difficulty in following the arguments of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) and in making out just where he is working his passage to. But I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wants peace as does everyone else. But there is a difference. While some of us want peace offering certain guarantees and safeguards for the future, others want to see the war ended by the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of our American allies from Vietnam, with all that that would imply for South-East Asia and for the world.
Now I think it is probably possible, according to one's idealogical and political standpoint, to make out a roughly logical case for either of these attitudes. What is much harder to justify, logically or otherwise, is an attitude which stands somewhere between the two, an attitude which might be summed up as, "Half the way with L.B.J.", an attitude which consists of sitting on the sidelines, not to say the fence, at a safe distance from the contest, doing nothing to help, but from time to time yelling unwanted criticism or slinging the occasional half-brick at the side one is supposed to be supporting.
This is what the attitude of Her Majesty's Government amounts to. The Prime Minister is very fond of talking about the Dunkirk spirit. I am fortunate enough only to have visited Dunkirk as a tourist on a cross-Channel steamer, and I would hesitate to pontificate about the
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spirit shown there. What I do know from such fighting as I have been involved in, directly or indirectly, is that it is, for a number of reasons, extremely important to know which side you are on. It is also very important to have what used once to be called "the will to win".
Mr. Molloy Mr. Molloy rose—
Sir F. Maclean: For the simple reason that if you do not have the will to win you are all too likely to lose.
Mr. Molloy: Most hon. Members will acknowledge that there are many people who are at the receiving end of American bullets and bombs who were our allies when North Vietnam was occupied by the Japanese.
Sir F. Maclean: They may have been our allies then, but they are not our allies now. The hon. Gentleman is more than 20 years out of date. It also seems to me very questionable whether their motives in being our allies then were really as disinterested as he seems to think.
To do them justice, and I am doing my best in this respect, a lot of hon. Gentlemen opposite are quite clear—and the last intervention left no doubt about it—which side they are on. Frankly, and I would say logically knowing their background, they are on the side of the Vietcong and Hanoi and are against the Americans and the Government of South Vietnam.
But the attitude of Her Majesty's Government is less clear and less logical. Until recently the main foundations of the Prime Minister's foreign policy—and it is very much his personal foreign policy, although I do not want to detract from any of the achievements of the hon. Lady the Minister of State—were friendship and solidarity with America. But now that this friendship is proving politically more and more embarrassing, the right hon. Gentleman, with that speed of movement upon which The Times commented this morning, is shifting his ground and qualifying and limiting his support. He lives, as the Foreign Secretary said so rightly, in a delicately, dangerously balanced world, and it is coming more delicately and more dangerously balanced all the time.
Of course, for the powerful and talented group of hon. Members who

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sit below the Gangway, this is a most gratifying result. It is what they have been working for, and they are quite naturally following up their advantage by trying to push their Leader into what must seem to them to be a more logical position for a man whom they picked under the impression that they were picking a man of the Left.
But what we on this side are concerned with is to get the Government to pursue a policy which is not only logical ideologically, but which also makes sense in present circumstances. And I believe that the Prime Minister's decision to withhold British support for American bombing of key oil storage installations—straightforward key military targets—and, even crazier if anything could be crazier, to ban arms sales to America, makes no sense at all. As The Times suggested this morning, and The Times seems to be unusually sound at the moment, the fact that he has given way to political pressure at home will tend to lessen the weight of his views in Washington. So that, if the Prime Minister wanted in future circumstances to exercise a restraining influence he would be much less likely to be able to do so. What he has done has undoubtedly lessened his influence in Washington. It will certainly not give his views any more weight either in Peking or Moscow, or Hanoi.
I was struck by some things said last weekend at Ipswich by the Solicitor-General, and I hope that his remarks will commend themselves as much to hon. Members opposite, both above and below the Gangway, as they did to me. He said:
"No nation has done as much as the United States to defend freedom and relieve poverty."
He went on to say:
"The question of attacking these targets would never have arisen if North Vietnam had not rejected every effort at mediation."
And I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary elaborate this. And again:
"The responsibility for the war lies with Hanoi and Peking."
The Solicitor-General also said, and this, too, struck me as interesting, that the Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation was now ending thanks to the presence of British troops in Sarawak and a British base in Singapore. He called this,
"… an outstanding example of collective security in South-East Asia."
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The Hon. Member for Fife, West talks about a policy of unrestrained escalation. It is nothing of the kind.
Now I strongly subscribe to all those propositions, and I draw from them two main conclusions: first, that there will be no peace in Vietnam until the Vietcong and the Vietnamese Government have been convinced, as the Indonesians have become convinced in the long run, that aggression does not pay; and, secondly, that we should give our American allies wholehearted support and not carping criticism when they take steps to achieve this end by attacking key military targets.
I hope that the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow will be useful. It has certainly served one quite useful purpose already: it has taken the heat off him a bit at home. And in one way he must have been relieved to hear that everything was all right when he opened his early edition of his Morning Star. But I am not convinced that it will do very much to hasten the end of hostilities in Vietnam. However, at least he will be able to compare notes with his hosts on the excesses of the Chinese official Press. After all, it must be almost as galling for them to be told by their Chinese comrades that they are
"working hand in glove with the Americans in bombing Hanoi and Haiphong"
as it is for the right hon. Gentleman to be told that
"his hypocritical expression of regret is nothing but a device to deceive British and world opinion."
This is much worse than anything my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) said about him. And if it does not do anything else it may at least teach both the Russians and the right hon. Gentleman that appeasement does not pay where the Chinese are concerned.
A great deal has been made of the dangers of escalation and of bringing China into the war by bombing certain targets. But the Chinese, who are realists, have made it absolutely clear that they have no intention of intervening in this or any other war unless China herself is attacked. The Prime Minister of China himself has said that in an interview with the Press. But to my mind we are threatened with a much more

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serious danger. Nowadays "to win a victory" has become almost a dirty word—almost as dirty as "to show a profit". But it is only if the Americans do win some decisive victories in Vietnam that we can possibly hope for peace; I think that the speech of the Foreign Secretary proved this as well as anything. To my mind, a far greater and more real danger than that of possible escalation is that if the Americans find they are not getting the support which they deserve from their Allies they may in the long run lose heart and pull out, together with our Commonwealth allies, and stop bearing the burden and heat of the day. And that is something which, for the reasons which my right hon. Friend elaborated, would have incalculable consequences not only in South-East Asia but throughout the world.
6.34 p.m.
Mr. K. Zilliacus: Before I deal with the speech of the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean), let me apologise to the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), because, unlike his colleague the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), he came off the pro-Hitler appeasement bandwagon about a year or two before Munich. But, together with the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire, he urged unlimited and unconditional support for the American war in Vietnam.
I remind the House that if those in ale Tory Party who thought like the right hon. Member for Streatham and the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire had been in charge in 1954, we should have had a nuclear war. Fortunately, it was the representatives of the minority in the pro-Fascist appeasement days—Sir Winston Churchill and Lord Avon—who were then in charge. Lord Avon tells the story in his memoirs of how Mr. Dulles put atom-bomb-carrying bombers on aircraft carriers, sent them off to Vietnam, and announced to Lord Avon just before they got there that he was going to atom bomb the besiegers of Dien Bien Phu, feeling sure that he could count on his British ally to support him if this brought China into the war. Lord Avon said, "Nothing of the sort. I shall riot support you. I will not back a bad policy in order to preserve an alliance".
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I wish that that sentiment was not wholly foreign to the thought of the members of both Front Benches in the present situation.
The implication—it is a terrifying implication—is that the United States Administration can do no wrong. I would remind right hon. and hon. Members opposite who take that line—they include the Leader of the Opposition—that according to Senator Fulbright power has gone to the President's head and he has stepped into Hitler's shoes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Those are not my words; they are Senator Fulbright's words. If hon. Members look up The Times of 22nd November last, they will find an analysis of the new unlimited Monroe Doctrine, which is a claim to the right of unlimited intervention to overthrow Governments or impose regimes anywhere in the world where the United States thinks that the old order is being threatened by Communism.
That doctrine is eagerly, though vicariously, embraced by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. Just as they landed us in the wholly unnecessary Second World War by appeasing Hitler, so they will back the worst policies of the worst elements of the United States until they have landed us in a nuclear war. Compared with them, my own side is a great deal better. I think that dissociation from the bombing of the Hanoi and Haiphong oil depots is dissociation from a new phase in the war. Up to then, the struggle between the hawks and doves in the Administration had imposed some restraints. The President was not taking the side of either, and he was somewhat confusedly—because there was a lot of confusion and muddle in this policy—working for a stalemate in which some kind of settlement could be negotiated bearing some resemblance to the Geneva Agreements.
But, unfortunately, largely, I fear, because of the pusillanimity of our own Government and because of the feebleness of the opposition in the United States, which, however, is growing rapidly, I am glad to say, he has now become, to use a somewhat mixed zoological metaphor, a rogue elephant led by the nose by the hawks. The thing most needed today is emphatic opposition to and dissociation from his war in

739
Vietnam in order, among other things, to strengthen the opposition in the United States to the point where, in the seesaw fight between the hawks and the doves, the doves get the upper hand. Then there might be a reasonable settlement.
But the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire was all for a military victory and, I suppose, a dictated peace. It was precisely the policy of anti-Communist containment by backing totally lawless violence and shutting one's eyes to the kinds of regimes and atrocities which were involved in that policy which landed us in the last world war.
I approach this matter from the point of view of one who has passionately believed in and, during most of his adult life, fought for the rule of law in international relations as against brute force and lawless violence. That, to me, is the touchstone of this war—which side we are on in the contest between those two things. Looked at from that point of view, the crucial fact is that the war is still going on because Mr. Dulles violated his undertaking to respect the Geneva Agreements. He put up a puppet dictator whose abuses of power and denial of a free election provoked a revolt in the South Vietnamese people. The Americans then started intervening quite illegally, in violation of the Charter which prohibits interference in the internal affairs of countries and in violation of the undertaking of the United States Administration not to resort to force or threats of force to disturb the carrying out of the Geneva Agreements.
The object of it all was quite plain, and it was stated at the time. President Eisenhower put it in his memoirs. It was known that if there were free elections under international supervision, they would result in an 80 per cent. victory for the Vietminh, and that was to be prevented at all costs, even at the cost of armed intervention. That armed intervention has grown in scale and in savagery ever since.
When it became clear that the South Vietnam régime was on the point of collapse and that there was a real danger of a neutralist Government emerging which would start negotiating for a settlement with the N.L.F., the United States
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extended their bombing to North Vietnam on the pretext that the war had now become a war of international aggression for which North Vietnam was responsible. I have quoted the evidence before from Senator Wayne Morse and other members of the Foreign Affairs Commission of the Senate, which had all the evidence available and cross-examined witnesses. At that time the trickle of aid from North Vietnam was insignificant. But, in terms of international law, there can be no such thing as international aggression, when Vietnamese in the north go to the aid of their fellow countrymen in the south who are victims of American aggression. According to the Geneva Agreement, to which we are a party, Vietnam is one country, the unity and sovereignty of which we are pledged to respect.
Mr. R. T. Paget: Would my hon. Friend call it aggression if the West Germans were to invade East Germany?
Mr. Zilliacus: If East Germany was attacked I would not regard it as aggression. But, as no one is attacking East Germany the situation does not arise. The real argument is that if there were an armed incursion by West Germany into East Germany, it would touch off a world war.
To return to the subject with which I was dealing, the moment the United States started bombing North Vietnam, under international law they were fully entitled to retaliate. They had been attacked. They became a belligerent. Yet the Foreign Secretary told us with horror in his voice that, according to his information, there are now 14 regiments of battalion strength from North Vietnam assisting the National Liberation Front. He seems to regard that as aggression. But once they have been attacked, of course they are entitled to defend themselves, and the attacking was done by the United States bombing.
In any case, after giving us a horrific picture of this massive invasion by huge North Vietnamese forces, he talks about 14 regiments of battalion strength. They represent 14,000 men, and the N.L.F. forces are estimated at somewhere round 200,000, which makes seven North Vietnamese to 100 Vietcong. On those figures, it does not sound as though this is

741
a war by North Vietnam. It is an American intervention trying to suppress the revolt of the majority of the people in South Vietnam. The people who would have won an 80 per cent. vote in 1954 or 1956 have not just disappeared off the face of the earth, and certainly what has been happening to the people of South Vietnam has not endeared either the Americans or the puppets of the Americans to them. That is why they still hold nearly 75 per cent. of the country, in spite of the overwhelming American forces against them. This has become a war of intervention by the United States against the people of Vietnam, and the object is becoming more and more clearly to partition the country and turn South Vietnam into a second South Korea.
It has been said in the United States that that is the intention. I might remind the House that, after 15 years, there are still 50,000 American troops in South Korea, and the régime there is a byword for tyranny and corruption even among the somewhat dubious flock of regimes in the free world made in the U.S.A.
Moreover, the methods by which the United States are waging the war are savage and barbaric. I asked the Prime Minister today whether he would dissociate himself from the saturation bombing of open towns and villages in South Vietnam, which has resulted in heavy casualties among civilians, including women and children. In effect, he first fobbed me off with the argument that there are atrocities on the other side. Secondly, he challenged the accuracy of my statement.
I am not going to hold up the House by reading the evidence, but, if the Prime Minister doubts my word, I would refer him to a report in the Sun of 25th March, 1965. Its correspondent in South Vietnam gave an eye witness account of what he saw. I would refer him, too, to an account by another eye witness in the Daily Mail of 8th April, 1965. Both of them gave horrifying descriptions of the coastal cities crammed with refugees. They said that there were 200,000 of them at the time. They spoke of hospitals overflowing with burned and horribly mutilated civilians, including women and children.
Since then, B52 bombers have been used for saturation bombing on a huge
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scale, which it was admitted in Washington before it started would increase greatly the already high rate of civilian casualties. The number of refugees is over one million, including burned, mutilated and terribly disfigured children, of whom we have had a slight overspill in this country. In fact, we have sent out a mission to deal with a few of those unhappy children.
According to a recent "Panorama" programme which some of us may have seen, American officers on the spot reckoned that there were eight or ten civilian casualties for every Vietcong casualty. That kind of thing is not civilised warfare. It cannot be justified by atrocities committed by guerillas and irregulars. I suggest that the two things cannot be equated. For one thing, what I call the do-it-yourself hand-made atrocities of the guerillas are on a much smaller scale and more selective than the wholesale indiscriminate slaughter by the latest methods of scientific barbarism of the United States Air Force. Apart from that, one cannot justify that kind of thing by the regular forces of a civilised power on the ground that war is war and war is horrible and so on. There is no excuse for that as reprisals or anything else. To say that there is is to use the kind of arguments that were unsuccessfully used on behalf of the defendants at Nuremberg.
Mr. A. Royle: Could the hon. Gentleman explain exactly what civilised war is?
Mr. Zilliacus: It is not the torture of prisoners, and it is not the burning and the cutting to pieces wholesale of women and children in undefended towns and villages.
Mr. Royle: What is it?
Mr. Zilliacus: It is not those things. Let that satisfy the hon. Gentleman for the moment. If he is trying to claim that anything is legitimate in war, then he comes down to the Nuremberg level. Perhaps it is a pity that certain gentlemen there were hanged, because on the doctrines which are now being advocated they were really martyrs and ahead of their time.
In this situation, although I am grateful for small mercies and therefore for the Government's dissociation from the

743
bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong, I am deeply disappointed and distressed that the Government coupled with their declaration to this effect on 29th June the statement that they remained convinced:
"… that the United States are right to continue to assist the millions of South Vietnamese, who have no wish to live under Communist domination, until such time as the North Vietnamese Government abandon their attempt to gain control of South Vietnam by force…."
The first part of that proposition implied that the Americans were entitled to carry out a policy of armed intervention in Vietnam in disregard of the Charter and their own pledges under the Geneva Agreements, in order to defend the 20 per cent. minority in Vietnam against the 80 per cent. majority. It would have been just as wrong for the Russians or the Chinese to have carried out a policy of armed intervention to uphold the rights of the majority against the minority. Interference, let alone armed intervention, in the internal affairs of a state is forbidden by the Charter, and we should accept that.
Then we come to the Government's proposals for settlement. The nub of the whole thing is the oft-repeated statement, which the Opposition have taken up, that the Hanoi Government are responsible for the continuation of the war and that therefore all the acts of horror and atrocity against the Vietnamese people, are justified, because they refuse to enter into unconditional negotiations while a huge United States force is still in South Vietnam.
The Prime Minister showed that he understood what that would mean, because when my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) asked him on 29th June whether he was informed of the authoritative statements in Washington to the effect that the President had now abandoned any idea of the neutralisation of Vietnam and was out for its partition and for turning South Vietnam into a second South Korea, the Prime Minister replied that the important point was the Americans' readiness to enter into unconditional negotiations and that:
"They are perfectly entitled to say what they would like to see come out of these talks."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th June, 1966; Vol. 730, c. 1796–1800.]
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do not know what to admire most in that statement, the delicacy of the way the Prime Minister put what he said or the reticence with which he significantly did not say something more.
Let us envisage the situation. The North Vietnamese have been bombed into coming to the conference table for unconditional negotiations. The Americans then say, "What we would like to see come out of the conference is the partition of Vietnam, the destruction of the N.L.F. in South Vietnam, and our perpetual occupation, Korea-style, of South Vietnam". The North Vietnamese would say, "We cannot agree to that. We would like the Geneva Agreements applied". The Americans presumably then say, "Sorry. We did not know that you felt like that about it. We had better start dismantling our bases and withdrawing our forces".
I cannot believe that my right hon. Friends have such virginal, innocent minds on these matters that they cannot see that the whole point of the United States' pressing for so-called unconditional negotiations, with a huge force still in occupation of South Vietnam, is that they intend, when they have successfully bombed the North Vietnamese into coming to the conference table for those unconditional negotiations, to present them with demands such as the partition of Vietnam, and will threaten more bombing if the demands are rejected.
That is what power politics mean. I was a League of Nations official in all the years between the wars. I hate power politics and I have fought all my life against them and for the rule of law, but I understand what the power game is about. I cannot believe that my right hon. Friends, when they go on peddling the nostrum of unconditional negotiations, do not realise that it is an attempt to force the North Vietnamese into unconditional surrender to the American demands for partition of Vietnam.
Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with Mao Tse-tung that power grows out of the barrel of a gun?
Mr. Zilliacus: Of course. Military power grows out of the barrel of a gun and out of atom bombs. That is a truism.
All that I am saying—and this is the point—is that this is an attempt to settle

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the issue by brute force, in disregard of the Geneva Agreements to which we are a party and of the Charter of the United Nations, to which we are also a party. We are condoning and supporting this policy. Whether we know it or not—I hope that the Government do not know—that is what we are doing.
In that connection, I welcome the visit of the Prime Minister to Moscow and reject with indignation any suggestion that his sudden interest in the Trade Fair or the timing of it, has anything to do with internal politics. That is a most unworthy suggestion. But I beseech him not to go to Moscow and try to sell the proposition to Mr. Kosygin, who was not born yesterday, that the North Vietnamese are responsible for the continuation of the war and that it is right for the Americans to try to bomb them into unconditional negotiations, because he will get a very dusty answer if he does that.
We must face the fact that as long as we continue to support the United States' war we have no international standing and nobody will take our peace emissaries seriously. This is a harsh and sensorious world, and they will be regarded rather as stool-pigeons of the American eagle than as doves of peace.
If we want to exert a real influence for peace we must stop supporting the American war. The very act of doing so will incalculably increase the opposition which is already becoming strong in the United States, and it will increase the opposition throughout world opinion.
At the same time, we should put forward constructive proposals. We should demand, and work with the French and Soviet Governments and the Secretary-General of the United Nations for, a conference with conditions, conditions such as the participation of the N.L.F., and the necessity for implementing the Geneva Agreements, which, I am glad to say, are summarised in the first part of the Government's Resolution. It outlines a peace settlement which is consistent with the Geneva Agreements. But unfortunately it bears no relation to the American policy which the Government support.
We must also tackle the crucial question of the presence of foreign forces in Vietnam. It is quite unreason-
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able to ask that they be withdrawn before negotiations start. It is equally unreasonable that the Vietnamese should go into negotiations with the Americans still free to use their huge military forces to impose their demands in unconditional negotiations.
The way to follow is, I think, one which was once put forward by the Council of the League of Nations when Japan had invaded Manchuria and demanded negotiations with China and the Chinese refused to negotiate until the Japanese had withdrawn into the railway (treaty) zone. The League of Nations Council then came forward with the compromise, "Yes, start negotiations, but make the first object of negotiations an agreed and phased withdrawal of forces." In this case, it would be the withdrawal of all extraneous forces from South Vietnam, the American, Korean, Australian and New Zealand forces plus the 14,000 North Vietnamese regulars. Only where that process had reached the stage when it was militarily difficult and politically and psychologically impossible to renew hostilities in order to impose conditions inconsistent with the Geneva Agreements should negotiations start on the implemention of the Agreements and a peace settlement such as that for which the Government speak in their Motion.
Of course, this will not come quickly, We shall have to fight hard to get that kind of settlement. But the first step is to part company with the United States, because only then shall we acquire authority in the councils of the world and authority in the eyes of public opinion, including American public opinion.
This being the situation, I, and, I imagine, every one of my hon. Friends will vote with the Government against the Conservative Amendment, which would go one step further along the road of madness on which we have travelled too far already. But I have searched my conscience and, as a man who has believed in and fought for the rule of law all his life, I cannot condone or support a policy which, to me, is supporting lawless violence by the United States in defiance of the Charter and in defiance of the whole principle of the rule of law. I cannot, therefore, vote for the Government Motion. I shall abstain on it tonight.
7.2 p.m.
Mr. Gilbert Longden: In one respect at least I shall not follow the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), that is, in the length of my speech. I know, Mr. Speaker, that you have a great many hon. Members on your list and I shall try to say what I have to say very briefly.
I know the hon. Gentleman too well to think for a moment that he is trying to deceive the House, but he is one of the biggest self-deceivers I have ever known. Where he gets his facts from I do not know. If they do not tally with what he likes, they are twisted or ignored. I wish to put a few matters on the record in order to get it straight. The hon. Gentleman accused my party of appeasing Hitler before the war.
Mr. Zilliacus: So they did.
Mr. Longden: We were egged on by the people then sitting over there to oppose Hitler, as I think everyone on these benches would then have wished to do, but at the same time, and in the same breath, they deprived us of any tools wherewith to do it. But today the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends below the Gangway are appeasing China in exactly the same way. Why? Because the ideology is different.
The truth is that the hon. Member for Gorton and his hon. Friends below the Gangway who oppose the Government on this issue want the Communists to win. That is the truth and we might as well face it. I do not accuse them of being yellow-bellied or lily-livered. I accuse them of being red or bloody-minded.
Mr. Zilliacus: When Mr. Dulles sabotaged the Geneva Agreements and refused to allow the free elections under international supervision promised by the Geneva Agreements, our Government disagreeing with him on it, was he right to prevent the Communists winning? Clearly, if there had been elections, they would have won. Would the hon. Gentleman have supported Mr. Dulles then, or would he have supported Lord Avon.
Mr. Longden: The hon. Gentleman is as long in his interventions as he is in his speeches. I do not intend to be deflected or to give way again. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]
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My mind goes back to the days of October, 1962, when the Cuba crisis hit the world. I can remember all the faint hearts and the lily-livered people grousing and grumbling at President Kennedy's action. I am glad to say that I happened to find myself in a position to speak for Britain, at the Inter-Parliamentary Union Conference in Brasilia, at a time when we really did not know what was happening except that President Kennedy had told the Communists to get out of Cuba and stay out. I then said:
"President Kennedy believes that the time has now come to call a halt to the Soviet itch to convert the rest of the world to their ideology by preventing further arms and armaments from reaching Cuba. I believe that all of us here who love freedom should support him."
The position is the same today. But, as Lord Robbins warned us yesterday, we must not be blind to the fact that there are many among us who do not love freedom.
I turn now to the situation in Vietnam. No one can deny that Hanoi aggressed by training guerillas and infiltrating into South Vietnam. In 1960, President Ho Chi Minh, addressing the Communist Party conference there, said:
"It is necessary to step up the national democratic people's revolution in the South."
In 1962, the Legal Committee of the International Control Commission issued a report concluding that it was the aim of the North Vietnamese Communist Party
"to bring about the overthrow of the Administration in the South".
It further concluded that North Vietnam had
"allowed the zone in the North to be used as a base for the organisation of hostile activities in the zone in the South, including armed attacks, aimed at the overthrow of the Administration in the South in violation of its obligations under the Geneva Agreement."
That was the conclusion of the Legal Committee of the International Control Commission.
The majority report—admittedly the majority report—of the International Control Commission later that year found that armed and unarmed personnel, arms, munitions and other supplies had been sent from North to South Vietnam.
Hon. Members will recall that in 1954 the South-East Asia Treaty Collective Defence Treaty was signed by the United

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States, Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Thailand and Pakistan, who pledged themselves to resist agression in the treaty area. Because, under the Geneva Agreement, South Vietnam could not join S.E.A.T.O., it was designated a country under the protection of S.E.A.T.O. which would be aided against aggression if its Government required help. As everyone knows, its Government did require help, and the Americans went to its aid.
If the Communists get away with it, the word of the Americans will not be believed anywhere else in the world, and neither will the word of the West. What the Americans, Australians and New Zealanders are now doing in South Vietnam is fighting our battles, just as we fought theirs, first in Malaya, and then in Malaysia.
What are the United States' aims? The Liberal Party has put down a Motion] have not got it before me to quote the exact words—which ends by asking, I think, what those aims are. What an extraordinary thing to ask. What a pity that the Woolsack has recently been restuffed with wool. Liberal Motions would have provided very good fodder for stuffing it.
These are the United States' aims. There can be no doubt whatever about what they are because they have been clearly expressed by President Johnson on many occasions. He has said:
"We do not seek the destruction of any Government, nor do we covet a foot of any territory. But we insist, and we will always insist, that the people of South Vietnam shall have the right of choice, the right to shape their own destiny in free elections in the South, or throughout all Vietnam, under international supervision."
Then again, as recently as last January, the Americans issued their 14 points. I shall not read them all, but here are some:
"We would welcome 'negotiations without pre-conditions'.
"We would welcome 'unconditional discussions'.
"We want no U.S. bases in South-East Asia.
"We do not desire to retain U.S. troops in South Vietnam after peace is assured.
"We would much prefer to use our resources for the economic reconstruction of South-East Asia than in war. If there is peace, North Vietnam could participate in a regional effort to which we would be prepared to contribute at least one billion dollars."
Mr. Peter Bessell: The hon. Gentleman said that he did not have a copy of the Liberal Motion, yet he had the temerity to purport to quote it. It says quite clearly that we seek clarification of the political aims of the United States, that is to say, what form of Government they would wish to see established.
Mr. Longden: There is no reason to doubt the political aims of the United States. They are all set out in the 14 points enumerated in January. Those are the aims of the United States in Vietnam. I believe that they coincide with our aims in that area, and until now the Prime Minister has supported them. He says that he still does so. As a matter of fact, not for the first time, the Foreign Secretary this afternoon explained the Government's case as clearly as anybody could express it—and we agreed with it until he tried to defend the Government dissociating themselves from the bombing of the oil tanks. It was at this stage that the right hon. Gentleman fell down on his case, because he knows as well as I do that he has no case. What is the good of supporting ends if not at the same time the legitimate means?
On 29th June Mr. McNamara said:
"The strikes against these petroleum facilities were initiated to counter a mounting reliance by North Vietnam on the use of trucks and powered junks to facilitate the infiltration of men and equipment from North Vietnam to South Vietnam. As a matter of fact enemy truck movement to South Vietnam has doubled during the first five months of 1966 compared to the first five months of 1965."
More than 60 per cent. of North Vietnam's remaining oil storage capacity was attacked, and rightly attacked. As was said by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, this afternoon, would any British Government not have done the same? Is it not a perfectly legitimate operation of war to attack essential supply lines and essential supplies?
Mr. Albert Booth rose—
Mr. Longden: I am sorry. I cannot give way.
Yet it was at this juncture that the Prime Minister panicked even before he or anybody else could possibly know the extent of the damage which, as a matter of fact, was very mild as far as civilians were concerned, as we now know.

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What I deeply regret is that the Government's dissociation can have no effect, except perhaps a bad one on Washington, but it may have a very bad effect on Hanoi by stiffening its resistance.
7.13 p.m.
Dr. John Dunwoody: I join in thanking those hon. Members who have made it possible to have this debate. It enhances the standing of the House that at a time of international crisis like this we should be able to debate as fully as we are doing the situation in Vietnam, and I hope that the change of programme which we saw this week will be a precedent for similar situations in the future.
I want to take up, first, the continual allegation from the benches opposite that this is a reversal of Government policy, that there has been a change in the Government's position. To me this seems an incredible distortion of the facts as they really are. There has been no reversal, no change in the Government's position. We have said for a long time that we were not prepared to associate ourselves with the American bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong. We have been consistent. The bombs have fallen, and we have therefore dissociated ourselves from this action. To me, this is consistency of policy. If there has been a change, it has occurred in American military policy, because they have now bombed Hanoi and Haiphong.
This is the latest chapter in a catalogue of escalations in this quite terrifying war which has been going on for far too long in Vietnam. We must look at the situation not only from the military standpoint but from the political point of view, and I am a little frightened when I read some of the reports from America, and listen to some of the radio programmes, and see some of the television broadcasts, and realise that political considerations are taking a back seat and that more and more the trend is to consider the war in Vietnam entirely from a military point of view.
This war and the battle against Communism will be won and lost in the minds and hearts of the people. It will not be won or lost with bullets and bombs, from whichever country they come. We therefore welcome the Gov-
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ernment's initiative, because it is initiative in the political field.
Our response was twofold. On Wednesday of last week we dissociated ourselves from the American bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong. On Wednesday of this week the Prime Minister decided to go to Moscow in ten days' time. I welcome these actions, first, because they are political actions. The dissociation of the British Government from the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong is a political action which I think is appropriate to the situation.
Mr. Victor Goodhew: The hon. Gentleman keeps on repeating the phrase, "the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong". These towns were not bombed. The oil installations outside them were attacked. Those words make all the difference in the world, and the hon. Gentleman should be careful how he uses them.
Dr. Dunwoody: We need not go into the niceties of this. The oil reserves of the capital city of North Vietnam and of Haiphong have been bombed. These installations are within a few miles of the centres of the cities. These are large cities, and anyone who lived through the bombing of London remembers that it is not always possible to be as accurate as one would like when dropping bombs.
The second reason why I support the Government is that we have drawn the line. No longer are we just threatening the Americans, "If you go further than a certain point we will dissociate ourselves from your action." No longer is this threat being issued to the Americans. We have drawn the line. We have said that we are not prepared to support this action.
Thirdly, I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend has accepted the invitation which has come from Moscow. He is to go there in a few days' time. To me this is a logical follow-up of the actions which were taken last week. I think that it would be naive to imagine that the invitation to visit Moscow is not directly related to the Government's dissociation from the American bombing in Vietnam one week previously.
We should have no false hopes about what we can achieve in Moscow. This war has been going on in Vietnam for

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many years. There was a war in Vietnam long before the Americans went there.
It has been going on since the last World War. Considerable efforts have been made—more by British Governments than many others—to achieve peace, but they have all failed.
We must not opt out. We cannot sit supinely by. We have a duty and a right, which the Government are fulfilling, to play a part in trying to achieve peace.
Many of my hon. Friends, and indeed many supporters of the Labour Party in the country, are saying that the action that we have taken is not enough and that we should go further. We have had the call for a complete and immediate dissociation of the British Government from the United States with regard to their Vietnam policy. This is understandable, and to a certain extent I am sympathetic to this point of view, but I think we should remind ourselves that there is perhaps the risk of forming an intellectual prison for one's emotions.
I think that we can and should, and I hope we will, reserve our position about more extensive dissociation, or complete dissociation, but I do not believe that the situation today demands this sort of action from a responsible British Government. The future is unknown, and it would perhaps be foolish to attempt to forecast what is to come in the days ahead. Further dissociation from the United States is a very powerful weapon. It is not a weapon that we should use lightly, or one that we should throw away. I believe that we should not use it lightly now or throw it away now.
We have a limited dissociation from the American policy, and our Prime Minister is flying to Moscow in an attempt to achieve some sort of political breakthrough. That is the position. I sympathise with and understand those of my hon. Friends who do not entirely agree with Government policy.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does my hon. Friend really believe that the Prime Minister's very sincere and constructive efforts to bring about a really unconditional conference have any chance whatever of success while we continue to swallow, hook, line and sinker, the American diagnosis of the origin of the
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war, which was so thoroughly demolished by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) this afternoon?
Dr. Dunwoody: I believe that if the Russian Government—our fellow coChairman—have seen fit to invite the Prime Minister of Britain to visit Russia we must regard it as a sign that these negotiations have at least some hope of success. Surely there is nobody in the House who does not want them to succeed.
I can sympathise with and understand the argument of some of my hon. Friends, but I can neither understand nor sympathise with the attitude of the Opposition, who appear to reject out of hand everything constructive that the Government are attempting to do. I cannot understand whether hon. Members opposite are seriously prepared to support the United States, right or wrong, irrespective of what they do. In the Press, two or three days ago, when the Leader of the Opposition was asked whether he was prepared to support the Americans if they began nuclear warfare in Vietnam he said that this was a hypothetical question, and he used this argument as a reason for not answering. The strength of the British Government's position today is that they did answer a hypothetical question. They answered the question, "What are you going to do if the Americans bomb Hanoi", by saying that they would dissociate themselves from the Americans. They have now done this, and I believe that this action has given us a real chance of a breakthrough.
In this debate we have a right to demand from the Opposition whether, in terms of supporting the American Government, they draw a line and, if so, where? The Opposition appear to have become so overwhelmed by the situation that they have withdrawn into their shell. They seem to suggest opting out of this vitally important issue. This is frightening to me, because I believe that we are now faced with probably the most serious international crisis of the last 20 years.
In ten days' time our Prime Minister is going to Moscow. Just over a week after that he will be going to Washington. I want him to go knowing that he has—and is seen to have—the overwhelming

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support of our people. I am certain that the people of Britain would want him to go with the overwhelming support of both sides of the House.
7.23 p.m.
Mr. Neil Marten: I want to devote my short speech to an analysis of the question why the Government have taken the line they have about the bombing of military objectives, and have dissociated themselves from the bombing of the oil storage tanks. First, however, I want to take up the point made by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), who said that the Labour Party was very persistent in its efforts to get Hanoi round the conference table. That may be so. The criticism made by my hon. Friends and myself is that while they have been persistent they have seemed to try to pluck too many things out of the air too quickly, without sufficient preparation. That is what we feel about the proposed visit of the Prime Minister to Moscow. Good luck to him. I hope that he achieves something. But we feel that this, too, has been plucked out of the air too quickly, and without the necessary preparation.
I also want to pick up a remark made by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker), who gave us some extraordinary information, namely, that if the bombing pause of the Americans had gone on for another 10 days or three weeks—I believe that is what he said—North Vietnam would have come to the conference table. He said that he had information to prove this. I expect he does have information to prove it, from his point of view, but the essential thing is that we, as a sensible and reasonable House, must know the source of that information, so that we can evaluate the meaning of what was said.
Mr. Manuel: In fairness to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) the hon. Member must recognise—and the House should accept—that he fully explained that he had received the information in confidence. When he was pressed he indicated clearly that he had confided the information fully to the Foreign Secretary. That should suffice.
Mr. Marten: My point is that if we are to judge we should be told the source. Only then can we evaluate the strength of the information.
The other extraordinary point that he made, and which the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) also made, concerned the question of prostitution, which he kept remarking upon in the middle of my right hon. Friend's speech. The right hon. Member for Derby, South said that there was such poverty in Vietnam that families had to send their daughters out as prostitutes. That was an extraordinary thing to say. Nobody is forced to send his daughter out as a prostitute.
Mr. Paget: Nonsense.
Mr. Marten: If the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) were poor would he send his daughter out as a prostitute? If so, I have little respect left for him.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The passage that I quoted from was in an article on the leader page of The Times yesterday, in which a distinguished correspondent with long experience in Saigon said that economic conditions in the city had worsened to such an extent in the last three months that even the most respectable people were selling their daughters to be prostitutes.
Mr. Marten: In that case I would not call those people very respectable. We are now discussing the question of the moral approach. It seems that hon. Members opposite feel differently about it than I do. Perhaps we may leave that question; it has little to do with Vietnam.
I want to concentrate upon analysing the reasons which caused the Prime Minister to dissociate himself from the bombing of the oil storage tanks in North Vietnam. To many of us the reason is quite clear.
The Government have stated categorically, time and time again, that the Americans are fighting to defend freedom. We all agree that they have no territorial ambitions in South Vietnam and that surely they, above all, want to end the war as quickly as possible and get packing, when they have done the job which they set out to do properly and completely.

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I believe that the reason for the bombing of the oil storage tanks was to get the war over as quickly as possible. As many hon. Members on both sides of the House know, in wartime a commander in battle has a very grave responsibility towards his men; he must see that his military tactics are such that the men fighting under his command are not put at a disadvantage. If the American commander, with all the intelligence reports coming in from various sources—the reliability of which only he can judge—and all the air reconnaissance photographs, makes a quite fair military assessment that oil is prolonging the ability of the North Vietnamese to continue the war, he surely has every justification in carrying out precision bombing of the oil storage tanks.
I would point out to the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Dr. John Dunwoody) that the oil storage tanks are about three miles outside Hanoi and Haiphong. I believe that the Americans were absolutely justified in this action; indeed, I go further and say that they had a duty to carry out this precision bombing if it would bring the war to an end more quickly.
Mr. Molloy: Is not this precisely the very dangerous situation that we might be moving into? I am speaking for mankind now. Might not the North Vietnamese generals do the same thing? They have a responsibility to get someone to help them to bomb. They might get the Chinese or the Russians to do this. Is not this what the argument is all about? Nobody can argue that when the South Vietnamese generals and the American generals bomb in this way they are right, but when the North Vietnamese do it they are wrong.
Mr. Marten: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will examine and expand that argument if he is called to speak. It is certainly a view which he might take, but it is the argument of capitulation, that if one is to be hit back, one does not hit. We disagree: let us leave it at that.
If the North Vietnamese are allowed to win this war, that will be a clear victory for subversive aggression and insurgency. If they win, they and other countries will be encouraged to go on and do the same thing. Then, I believe, peace
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in a wide part of the world will be in great jeopardy. If the Americans do not win, the price that the West will have to pay later will be far greater than any price which it is paying at the moment. Therefore, I was very disappointed when the Prime Minister announced that he dissociated the Government from the bombing of the oil storage tanks. He has, I believe, weakly abandoned the strong stand which he has taken hitherto.
He knew that if he did not dissociate himself from this bombing immediately, he would have been in great trouble from the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway in his own party. Perhaps he is still in trouble, but we in this Chamber are not concerned with what goes on in the "upstairs parliament" which the Labour Party holds behind closed doors and which leaks, either officially or unofficially, into the evening papers. We are not concerned with the majorities there, but surely are concerned with what is said here or what appears on the Order Paper.
I would remind the House that Motion No. 111 on the Order Paper is signed by 111 Members of the Labour Party—
Mr. William Hamilton: No.
Mr. Marten: Yes. It is so—
Mr. Hamilton: There is a Liberal.
Mr. Marten: I am sorry. There may be one or two Liberals.
The Motion says that United States Government policy is misguided and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to dissociate themselves completely from those policies. That means about one-third of the Labour Party—
Mr. Winnick: If the hon. Gentleman considers that the American war in Vietnam is some kind of holy sacred struggle against Communism, would he give the Americans a blank cheque? Is there any stage of the American escalation of the war at which the hon. Gentleman would say, "So far and no further"?
Mr. Marten: I gave way to the hon. Gentleman hoping that he would intervene on a point about which I was speaking. His intervention has no relation at all to the point that one-third of the Labour Party wish to dissociate themselves from the American policy—
Mr. Roy Roebuck rose—
Mr. Marten: I am sorry, I cannot give way—
Mr. Roebuck: It is on this point.
Mr. Marten: I have given way about five times and I will not give way again.
With one-third of the Labour Party feeling this way about it, this is what caused the Prime Minister to dissociate himself from the bombing—straight away, before he consulted the Americans, the Australians or the New Zealanders who are fighting in Vietnam. He had to anticipate the reactions of the Left and try to buy them off by throwing them this bone.
The Prime Minister knows, with all the military experience which he must have gained in the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, that this view is absolute nonsense. In the same way, I am afraid, his visit to Moscow looks to us as though it was ill-prepared and another gimmick. In a debate last year, in which I moved a Private Member's Motion, I sought to say that the Left wing had an influence upon Government policy. This is in continuation of my same belief. I am in order in saying this and I do not blame the Left wing for doing it. In fact, I am giving them, as I did last time, credit for having been so successful in influencing the Prime Minister and his colleagues on this matter.
I disagree with the Left wing violently: they know that. But I will defend their right to try to bring their influence on the Government to their line of thinking, provided that they do it democratically. In the same way, I would defend the right of the militant seamen to try to influence their leaders into a certain course of action, provided that that too was done democratically and that they were not acting for a foreign power or something more evil than that. We must protect the democratic right of the Left wing to influence the Government.
The point is that the leaders—
Mr. Paget Mr. Paget rose—
Mr. Marten: I will just finish this point.
The point is that, in those circumstances, the leaders, whether the Prime
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Minister or the seamen's leaders, have to stand up to the backdoor pressures or the Left-wing pressures and be men. They cannot complain if I criticise them for being influenced by the Left wing.
Mr. Paget: I think that it ought not to be misunderstood and that I ought to say that 110 became 46 when they had heard the argument.
Mr. Marten: I recognise that the "upstairs parliament" is not quite the same as the downstairs Parliament and that it is easier to sign a bit of blue paper than to put up one's hand upstairs. I do not know how the 1922 Committee of the opposite party operates, but it must be something strong which makes people who have signed Motions here fail to carry them through upstairs.
At least we can say that, throughout, the Left wing has been quite consistent—I congratulate them on this—in what they have been trying to do and that they have so far carried it through. I believe that the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow may well have placated them and this may have been what happened upstairs, that he may have hinted—
Mr. Paget: No.
Mr. Marten: I understand from the leak that he gave a nuance of an idea. Perhaps the prospect of the visit to Moscow placated the Left wing for a while. However, they are not only very consistent but also very persistent.
When the glitter of this visit to Moscow has become a little tarnished, the Prime Minister will once again have pressures put upon him for total dissociation from United States policy and that it will come from these 111 or perhaps even more hon. Members by then. The question arises, how much further will the Prime Minister yield when that happens again? If the United States, as it is quite entitled to do, should say, "We have bombed the oil storage tanks and it is our military appreciation that we must carry this to the further oil installations, to the harbours through which the oil might be brought and shipped, and even to the power stations which drive the machinery connected with the oil", which is a logical conclusion in denying oil to the Vietnamese, how will the Prime Minister react?

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Will he go on dissociating himself from bombing power stations and harbours? We do not know, but perhaps when he winds up this debate he will tell us the answer. The world and the country will want to see how the Prime Minister trims his policies to these pressure from his Left wing.
It is not only I who say that there are pressures on the Government from the Left wing. President Johnson has said that he is very sympathetic to the Prime Minister's position because he recognises that he has difficulties in his own party. That is very kind of him. Therefore, it is not only my belief but a well-known fact that these pressures operate.
I wonder what the Americans, Australians and New Zealanders think of a Prime Minister who says that he will dissociate himself from the bombing of these oil storage tanks? The word "rat" has been used, but I will not use it. However, the right hon. Gentleman has defaulted on the allies when legitimate targets have been bombed. The Prime Minister has stopped urgent military equipment going to his allies, the Americans. He failed to consult the Australians and New Zealanders about the bombing, and he dissociated himself from it before he had even seen the results.
What can the people in those countries, allies of ours, think of a Prime Minister who behaves like that? One is entitled to ask what would happen if the Chinese suddenly decided one day to begin an attack on Hong Kong. On which allies would we call to help us to defend Hong Kong but the very allies on whom the Prime Minister has now defaulted?
The Motion initiated by the hon. Member for Fife, West called for the reestablishment of the Commonwealth Peace Mission and urged that it should go off again on another peace mission. I suggest that the very fact that two leading members of the Commonwealth are actively engaged in fighting in South Vietnam means that the Commonwealth Peace Mission will find it rather difficult to get an audience with the North Vietnamese. I hope, therefore, that if the Government do restart the Commonwealth Peace Mission the House will not be too hopeful that it will succeed.
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If peace comes out of the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow or out of any other meeting, it will be due primarily to American military action and to America's determination to see it through. I hope—and I hope that this will be heard outside this House—that the people of this country and the Americans, Australians and New Zealanders will draw a distinction between, on the one hand, the Prime Minister and the Labour Party and their policy—which, I maintain, is increasingly coming under Left Wing pressures—and the policy which my hon. and right hon. Friends have stated in our Amendment and which, I believe, represents by far the opinion of the majority of people in this country. Our Amendment backs up our allies in their very gallant fight, which I hope they will quickly win.
7.43 p.m.
Mr. Stan Newens: A number of hon. Members have expressed approval of the decision of the Government to hold this debate, and I associate myself with their remarks. It is right and proper that we should be discussing the war in Vietnam. I say that because, first, the war there is of great concern to all hon. Members as human beings—we are concerned at the destruction, suffering and loss of life which is taking place—secondly, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) said, the House should be discussing the most intractable international problem today, a problem which represents a major obstacle to the achievement of a world disarmed, thirdly, because of the possibility that the war in Vietnam may escalate into a third world war and, fourthly, because of the vast expenditure of money and resources which prevents any genuine attempt being made to tackle the poverty in Asia which gives rise to so many of the troubles about which we have heard today.
At a time when two-thirds of the world's population is under-nourished at a time when anyone who studies the facts must be concerned about the tremendous population explosion that is taking place—is it not a disgrace that the most weathy and powerful nations in the world should be spending vast sums of money on warfare while, comparatively

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speaking, they are spending little on the peaceful developments which might bring political stability to the under-developed countries?
If an observer from outer space saw what was going on on this planet today—saw the greatest and most powerful nation spending vast sums of money on the war in Vietnam—he would declare that it was utter madness. It is high time that we recognised that it is indeed madness.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: While the hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the United States is spending large sums in Vietnam, would he not agree that that country is uniquely spending even greater sums for the relief of poverty and illiteracy throughout Asia?
Mr. Newens: Certain sums are being spent to relieve poverty and misery—on the really important developments which should be taking place in the world—but they are comparatively small compared with the vast sums being spent on arms.
The degeneration of both the aims and methods in the war in Vietnam has gone a long way. We have been told that the Americans are there to fight for democracy. Let us be clear about this. There is no democracy, as we understand it, in North Vietnam, but what exists in South Vietnam is a vile dictatorship which is the last and latest of a series of dictatorships.
Marshal Ky's Government is without popular support. Marshal Ky is a self-confessed admirer of Hitler, and he used troops to disperse demonstrators—and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke about those demonstrators. Many of Ky's opponents are in prison. When I heard the Foreign Secretary point out that demonstrations could take place, as though my right hon. Friend were giving some evidence to show that there was a vestige of democracy there, I could not but disagree with him from the bottom of my heart. The opposition to Marshal Ky's Government does not exist only among the Buddhists, but among the Catholics, too. The Observer of 20th March last stated:
"Even Catholic leaders who have fled Communism in the North have talked to me recently of plans for eventual passive resistance to the General's Government."
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Make no mistake about it. This is an appalling dictatorship, and it is disgraceful that any modern nation should have any truck with it.
I must say something about the bestial nature of the war. The use of torture has been condemned, but I suggest that we must be honest about this, and I regret that the Foreign Secretary is not in his place to hear what I am about to say. Torture is used by both sides in Vietnam, and I do not deny that. However, the trouble with my right hon. Friend is that he has mentioned, generally speaking, torture used only by the North. Meanwhile, the New York Herald Tribune of 27th July last year stated:
"One of the most infamous methods of torture used by the Government is partial electrocution—or 'frying', as one U.S. adviser called it. The wires are attached to the male genital organs, or to the breasts of a woman prisoner. Other techniques designed to force onlooking prisoners to talk involve cutting off fingers, ears, finger nails or sexual organs of another prisoner. A string of ears decorates the wall of a Government military establishment."
Last year I visited Buchenwald. where I saw the remnants of torture; I saw a memorial of man's inhumanity to man. Everyone asks, "Why didn't the Germans speak against it?" I believe the answer to be that many of them accepted the argument put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West that it was not right to take a Pontius Pilate attitude. I am prepared to take a Pontius Pilate attitude. I can have no part in any sort of regime that is prepared to support this sort of thing taking place in a civilised world, and I want to make that very clear.
Let us look at the way to bring this war to an end. United States Government policy has proceeded by means of progressive escalation from 1955 until today. The pattern has been that each increase in United States involvement has been insufficient to secure the results sought. The Americans have therefore gone one step further along the road. Every promise about the way to proceed has been progressively discarded. James Reston, associate editor of the New York Times, said
"The guile of this Administration exercised in the name of high and noble principle is hard to match."
They went beyond the 17th Parallel when they said they would not; they have

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gone over to the offensive when they said that they were only going to respond to enemy attack; they said that they would not get involved in major war on the Asian mainland, but did. Even in bad resolves, they had been unfaithful. Johnson said that he would not negotiate, and then he changed his mind. What faith can we place in the statements of this sort of Government?
The Opposition in this House approved of this course of escalation. It is hypocritical for hon. Members opposite to attack this Government because they are buying United States planes, and so on, while they themselves are prepared to back the United States to the hilt in this war in Vietnam. Let us remember the logic that must be followed. If the bombing of the Hanoi and Haiphong oil installations does not work, what are we to do? What do the Opposition propose'? At what stage do we call a halt? Or do we follow Johnson to a full-scale war on China? Hon. Members opposite have refused to answer these questions, but I say that it is political cowardice on their part if they do not tell us this evening what they want to do.
What has been the rôle of the British Government? Its rôle has been to support the United States policy hook, line and sinker, until the bombing of the oil installations. It may be said that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary expressed certain disagreement on the use of gas but, by and large, what I have said is true—hook, line and sinker we have supported American policy. Let us be, clear that there is no logic in supporting American policy unless we are prepared to follow it right through. If the bombing of the Hanoi and Haiphong oil installations was wrong, and I believe that it was wrong, my right hon. Friends must realise that so was the previous policy that led to it.
One hon. Member opposite said that Mr. McNamara stated on 29th June of this year that infiltration in the first five months of 1966 was double that in the first five months of 1965. What better example could we have of the failure of the policy of stepping up the bombing? That failure should be absolutely clear to anybody. If this United States policy has been wrong, it demonstrates the failure of British support for that policy.
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British support has not worked. It did not hold Johnson back from doing things that we thought were wrong. It did not make the North Vietnamese anxious to negotiate; on the contrary, it hardened their resolve to carry on. I remember as a child visiting London during the blitz. That memory makes me wonder how anybody can believe that human beings will respond to the bombing of their capital city by running away and being prepared to negotiate. The only thing that will happen is that they will harden themselves to stand up and fight. If anyone after the bombing of London in 1940 had proposed negotiations with the Germans, he would have stood the risk of being lynched—
Mr. Marten: There is surely a difference between the two incidents. The bombing of London—and on one occasion I happened to be there on leave—was absolutely indiscriminate bombing of London by fire bombs. The bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong comes twenty-five years later, it is done by precision bombing, and the bombing has hit the precision targets.
Mr. Newens: If arguments like that satisfy the hon. Gentleman, they certainly do not satisfy me.
I want to make it quite clear that I believe that the policy of supporting the bombing, this policy that has failed, is completely idiotic. It is stupid for us to say that we are prepared to support the bombing of villages and then say that we are not prepared to support the bombing of towns. It is ridiculous to say that we are prepared to support the bombing of oil installations outside other towns but that we are not prepared to support the bombing outside Hanoi.
I have recognised, and I hope that my hon. Friends will also recognise, that the failure of the British Government's policy in this respect does not in any way detract from the Government's good intentions. At the same time, that policy has failed.
Unfortunately, an Amendment tabled by myself and a number of my hon. Friends has not been called. This Amendment recommends complete dissociation from the United States' policy. I am sorry that it has not been called because that places some of us in a very

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difficult position as we certainly would not wish to vote for the sort of policy put forward by the Opposition. Let us look, however—and here I address my remarks in particular to people like my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West, for whom I have a very great respect indeed—at the effects of complete dissociation from United States policy.
I have no illusions that if we were to dissociate ourselves from United States policy, Lyndon Johnson would suddenly take notice of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but that might not be too much of a loss as the President has not taken too much notice of my right hon. Friend so far. He apparently does not regard my right hon. Friend as a close adviser on these matters—he would not otherwise have gone as far as he has gone. The only force, short of military force—which I hope we would all abhor—which will make Johnson listen to calling off the bombing or taking positive steps towards peace is the voice of American public opinion.
Let us not forget that powerful voices have been raised inside the United States of America against the bombing. Very strong voices have been uttering the need for America to change her policy in this respect—voices like those of the Kennedys, and of Gavin and of Galbraith. Johnson himself is extremely sensitive to these voices, and even more sensitive to the Gallup polls.
Lyndon Johnson's policy has been designed to appeal to United States public opinion on a number of occasions. The Times in an editorial on 8th January this year said:
"The peace offensive"—of Johnson—" is an attempt to rally domestic and foreign opinion to the American side to put some public pressure on North Vietnam. It is an exercise in public relations rather than diplomacy."
I maintain that the sort of things that Johnson has been doing are very much orientated towards what is going on in American public opinion. The greatest contribution that the British Government, for which I have worked for many years, can make to peace is to tell the United States publicly that its policy in Vietnam is completely wrong—not merely the bombing of the Hanoi and Haiphong oil installations. If the Government were to take this step it would be the greatest
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possible fillip to sanity in the United States. As I believe in people, I implore my hon. and right hon. Friends to take note of this plea.
The Motion in the names of my hon. Friends does not do this. It
"… approves Her Majesty's Government's determination to pursue their efforts to promote unconditional negotiations already accepted by the United States…"
It does not include some of the sense of the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. Quite clearly, he considered that the United States Government, comparatively speaking, is blameless in this matter and that the real fault and reason for there not being negotiations rests with Hanoi. This patently is not true. The basis on which the argument has been put is not true.
There has been much reference to the Oxford teach-in. A number of things my right hon. Friend said there were not correct. The first nine reports by the International Control Commission recorded repeated violations of the ban on receiving foreign arms by the South as well as the North. The South, with American backing, opposed free elections. The guerrilla movement was not begun by the North but originated in the South.
The talk which is being put about to the effect that Lyndon Johnson is now interested in peace is something which I hope my right hon. Friends will look into very carefully because his recent statements, particularly the one at Omaha, indicate a shift away from the 14 points put forward earlier. We now have a situation in which it appears that the United States Administration is not so much interested in peace as in outright victory. I have heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister say that we do not want to support people who are interested in victory but those who are interested in getting peace. We must remember that this is a two-edged sword which cuts both ways. I reject outright the Opposition view that we should go ahead in support of the Americans in their programme of escalating this conflict.
The Government Motion as it stands is quite unsatisfactory, but at least there is no reference in it to support of United States policy in general, although the

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Foreign Secretary referred to it. Although I have great respect for him, his speech appalled me. I regret very much that there has been no opportunity of putting to the House the Amendment expressing the point of view of a large number of hon. Members, particularly on this side of the House and on the Liberal bench. This debate takes place, not as a result of pressure of hon. Members who take the point of view of the Official Opposition, but as a result of the pressure of those really concerned about this conflict.
I very much respect the sincerity of my right hon. Friends, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, but in this particular matter I do not respect their judgment. I hope that although they do not respect my judgment they will have a similar respect for my sincerity as I have for theirs. If we are interested in world peace we cannot afford to carry on with support of United States policy. Complete dissociation from that policy will assist the United States opposition and enable Britain to act as an independent peacemaker in this business, which Britain cannot do at present.
I was very happy to learn that the Prime Minister is to go to Moscow to make an attempt to bring about peace. I hope that hon. Members in all parts of the House will cast on one side political sniping in this vital matter. I am sure they wish him success. But I make the forecast in all humility that his mission will almost certainly fail because we have not yet dissociated ourselves completely from United States policy. We cannot carry on in the way we have done up to the present. Everyone wants this war to end, but it will not if we carry on with the present situation fraught as it is with danger to the whole of humanity and allowing urgent problems facing humanity to be discarded and put on one side. If United States bombing were called off, not for a brief period but permanently as U Thant, Secretary General of the United Nations suggested, although it would not be easy there would be much more opportunity of bringing about a peace settlement than there is if we go on as at present.
I hope and believe that my right hon. Friends are gradually coming round to this position. I hope they will come round to it soon, because I want this Govern-
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ment to succeed particularly in foreign affairs and also in home affairs more than anything else. Only with these matters in mind do my hon. Friends and I express our views vehemently this evening.
8.8 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Royle: None of us would deny, and I am certain his right hon. Friends would not deny, the sincerity of the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Newens) in his approach to this very serious problem, although I must confess that his hysterical method of expressing himself was inclined to make one feel that at times he was getting a little lost in his arguments.
I want mainly to make two points. I do not agree with the hon. Member that the answer to the Vietnamese problem can he found by ceasing bombing of North Vietnam. That has been tried and has failed. For 40 days and 40 nights the Americans ceased bombing in North Vietnam and there was no reaction whatever from the North Vietnamese. I do not see how, by further efforts on those lines, anything would be achieved.
I regret very much the Government's decision to abandon the United States Government by not supporting the military action of bombing oil installations at Haiphong and Hanoi. It was a regrettable and weak decision, as was said by the Leader of the Opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) and many of my colleagues. I was extremely impressed by the speech of the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. It was a first-class speech, putting forward with great clarity the views of the Government on the entire Vietnamese situation with none of which did I disagree except the point about the failure to support the military decision to bomb oil installations in North Vietnam.
I returned from Laos only ten days ago. I think that I am the first back bench Member from either side of the House to visit Laos. When I was in Vientiane I made a close and careful study of the situation in Vietnam as seen from Vientiane. I also met many of the leading members of the Royal Laos Government and many people who are resident and involved politically and diplomatically in Vientiane.

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One of the things that struck me was the importance of a document which so far has not been produced by Her Majesty's Government. This document was explained to me by Mr. McClelland, who is the Canadian Commissioner on the Laos Control Commission. This International Commission was set up as a result of the 1962 agreement. Mr. McClelland, the Canadian Commissioner, accompanied by the Indian Commissioner, has carried out a careful survey of the operations on the Ho Chi Minh trails, which is not just one trail or track but a series of laterite roads running through the Communist and Pathet Lao controlled areas of Laos.
This document of 700 pages, which includes photographs, shows in great detail, and for the first time, the fact that Chinese and Russian equipment and North Vietnamese troops are travelling by truck and regularly using the Ho Chi Minh trails. The significance of this document is that it is signed by the Canadian Commissioner and by the Indian Commissioner, but not by the Polish Commissioner. This document, signed by the two neutrals, provides the first firm evidence from a neutral source of the movement of Chinese and Russian equipment and North Vietnamese troops down the Ho Chi Minh trails.
This document was in the hands of the British Government over three weeks ago. Yesterday I requested, and one of my hon. Friends has also requested, that a copy of this document be put in the Library. The Question for Written Answer which I tabled to the Foreign Secretary yesterday afternoon has not yet been answered. No reply of any sort has been given. This is an extremely important document for today's debate, in which many views are being expressed sincerely. I am the first to admit that I do not approve of all the views which are being expressed on one side, as many people may not approve of my views.
This document is fundamental to our debate today and it should have been placed in the Library in response to my request or have been given to us to look at. I ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to ask the Prime Minister to reply to this point tonight and also to say whether this document has been shown to the American Government
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officially. If the document was in the Prime Minister's hands before he made his statement to the House last week, as I believe it was, he had the firm evidence in his grasp on which to make quite plain the reasons for the American decision to bomb the oil installations in Haiphong and Hanoi, this document makes it clear that trucks were moving down the Ho Chi Minh trails and the petrol and oil installations were needed in order to provide fuel for those trucks.
Mr. Alfred Morris: As the hon. Gentleman has said, there have been many sincere expressions of view in this debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is against the Government for dissociating themselves from the bombing of Haiphong and Hanoi. Will the hon. Gentleman say, for his part, where he would stop in supporting American policy, short of the use of nuclear weapons?
Mr. Royle: As I was saying earlier, I have two main points to make tonight. I will certainly answer the hon. Gentleman's question when I come to my other point later. Before I finish on the subject of this document, I express the hope that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will ask the Prime Minister to reply to this point tonight, because it is concerning many of us on this side of the House and also puzzling us. This document gave the Prime Minister the firm argument and evidence to enable him to give full public support to the American decision to bomb the oil installations. I should be grateful for an answer to this question.
The second point concerns a rather wider aspect of the Vietnamese situation which spreads into the S.E.A.T.O. area. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham has said, it is not only the situation in Vietnam which concerns us as a power in the Far East, but also the situation of S.E.A.T.O. Although there is not time today to develop one's thoughts and ideas on how one would like to see S.E.A.T.O. develop, the point should be made that nearly every South-East Asian nation is 100 per cent. behind the American action, the American attitude and the American fight in South-Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Formosa, the Philippines, Malaysia, Burma, Thailand—all these countries fully support the

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Americans in South Vietnam, as do Australia and New Zealand, as was pointed out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham.
Mrs. Anne Kerr: This is of essential interest to the House. Surely the hon. Gentleman is now talking about the ruling cliques in those nations and not necessarily about the mass of the native populations, which is quite another matter.
Mr. Royle: No. I am talking about the mass of the population, because there is a democratic system in Japan, New Zealand and Australia. There is a very flourishing democratic system in Singapore, as there is in Malaysia. All these countries, which I have no doubt the hon. Lady has visited, have flourishing democratic systems. Some South-East Asian countries have not. Thailand has not at present got democratic elections. But all these nations give wholehearted and universal support to the American attitude in Vietnam. In Thailand we have great commitments. We have commitments under the S.E.A.T.O. Treaty to support Thailand if the request comes to us for aid.
In 1962 under the Treaty we put a squadron of Hunter aircraft into Cheng Mai to support the Thais at the time of the Laos difficulties, before the agreement was reached by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home). What is interesting but not widely known in this country is that British troops are already in Thailand at the moment. In fact, there is a battalion of British troops at the moment in a place called Loeng Nok Tha. There are 32 officers and 565 other ranks there. They are building a massive airfield. I have Questions down to the Foreign Secretary next week to ascertain details of the cost and the arrangements about this airfield.
As we already have troops—in my view, rightly so—in Thailand to fulfil our S.E.A.T.O. obligations, I cannot see why the Government should not, if requested by Thailand, put more troops into Thailand as a member of the S.E.A.T.O. organisation—at Thailand's request. I am sure that hon. Members opposite, both above and below the Gangway, would support such a request
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for troops, because this would be carrying out our obligations under the S.E.A.T.O. Treaty.
The Prime Minister's latest idea of going to Moscow, which was announced last night, has been discussed on several occasions today. Many people hope that this is a genuine effort by the Prime Minister to start a peaceful negotiation to try to get some result in Moscow when he visits there later this month. I should like the Prime Minister to answer the question put to him this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. Was he really invited? I wonder. I wonder if he did not perhaps suggest that he would like to visit the Trade Fair and then have a talk with the leaders of the Soviet people whilst he was there. [HON. MEMBERS: "So?"]
This is very important. It is important to know if there is a change of mind and of attitude on the part of the leaders in the Kremlin as a result of the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong. If the initiative had come from the Soviet leaders in the Kremlin for the Prime Minister to visit them in Moscow, this would indicate a change of mind. If, on the other hand, the initiative did not come from Moscow but came from the Prime Minister, this would indicate that we were back on the same old road which we have been over already in the last two years. I refer to the visit to Hanoi of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, a mission which was not carefully prepared, and to the Commonwealth Peace Mission, which never got off the ground. They both failed.
I have a strange feeling—I hope I am wrong—that, if the Prime Minister suggested this visit and if it did not come as a genuine invitation from the Soviet Leaders, maybe—perhaps I am being unfair—it was arranged as a sop to hon. Members below the Gangway who are being so tiresome and troublesome to the Prime Minister. Hon. Members may not agree but that is how it looks to me.
During my travels, particularly in Laos, comments have been made to me by many people that, whenever the Prime Minister seems to take what is put out by him to be a genuine step to find a peaceful solution, it always seems to take place when he is having terrible trouble domestically with the Left wing of his own

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party. That makes people overseas begin to wonder how genuine his efforts are.
I do not want to detain the House longer, which will please many hon. Members opposite, because many hon. Members on both sides wish to speak. All of us, whatever our views, wish to see this miserable and beastly war finished. Some of us feel strongly and sincerely, like my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham, that the only way to deal with Communism is from a position of strength. We believe that if we talk from strength we get results. Others do not believe that. Some hon. Members opposite feel that we should start talks with the other side by withdrawing all our support for the American position in the Far East. That is an understandable position.
The position which I do not understand and which I regret is that taken up by the Prime Minister during the past week by saying that he will support the Americans in the battle they are fighting, alongside Australians and New Zealanders, in South Vietnam but that when they take military action which will safeguard the troops fighting in this bloody little war, he must refuse to support President Johnson in his hour of need.
8.22 p.m.
Mr. James Wellbeloved: The hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle) followed a much more restrained and responsible line of argument than the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). I do not condemn the hon. Member for Banbury's effort in trying to extract from the situation the maximum political advantage, but it is regrettable that he should have done so on an occasion such as this when we are discussing issues of very grave importance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) posed some questions to the Opposition and I hope that the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) will make it clear just how far the Opposition are prepared to go with the Americans. I believe that we are entitled to an answer.
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We started this debate with the shattering news that the Prime Minister is to visit Russia. I believe that on both sides of the House this is a most welcome move. It could bring great fruits. The speech that has impressed me most, apart from that of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, is the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Newens). He is my friend in more sense than one. He is a personal friend and I appreciate his very deep and sincere feelings on this issue. Indeed, we all have such feelings. The argument on this side of the House is not about the end that we wish to achieve but about the means by which we can best achieve it and I have great sympathy for the deep feeling of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping.
What is going on in Vietnam is a tragedy for mankind and I do not believe that an academic discussion of the causes of the conflict, of the rights or wrongs, will have any effect in saving one single life. I was pleased to see that the Government's Motion put as first priority the urgent need to stop the fighting and to bring to an end the murder, slaughter, bloodshed and atrocities being committed by all the participants in that bloody struggle. That is the end upon which we are all agreed on this side of the House. Where we differ is on the best way to achieve it, on whether it would be better completely to dissociate ourselves from the United States or to have some real influence on American policy by continuing a limited form of association.
I believe that there is a growing acceptance in Vietnam itself that there can be no military victory by either side. When my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance returned from Hanoi, I believe that he came back with the message that there was no inclination by the Hanoi authorities to discuss a peaceful settlement because they thought that they could gain a military victory. I believe that that time has gone both for the United States and for Hanoi. I believe that, as the war escalates, it has a danger of leading to a less satisfactory settlement than could be obtained if talks could be arranged to take place now.

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The second part of the Motion talks of a settlement which would enable the peoples of North Vietnam and South Vietnam to determine their own future. Again, there is no difference between my hon. Friends and myself on that issue. We are all concerned and determined that all the people of Vietnam, in the north as well as in the south—at least, I hope that we are agreed—should have an opportunity at some time to determine freely their own destiny. The danger is that, if the reluctance of Hanoi to talk continues, we shall move into a situation where, with the build-up of military forces in both North and South, no acceptable political settlement will be possible except one brought about by military stalemate after the Korean pattern.
That is why we call urgently to the Soviet Union, as Co-Chairman, to join with us in an exercise of influence in reconvening the Geneva Conference and call on Hanoi to talk now while there is still a chance to get an acceptable political settlement with free determination for all the peoples of Vietnam.
There are some voices in this country which are not helpful in this situation. I refer to no voice which has a hearing in this House. I received an invitation at the beginning of the week to attend a conference whose sole purpose was to raise funds to supply arms to the Vietcong. That sort of action by anyone in this country can have no bearing at all on the achievement of a peaceful solution. Nor can the carrying of banners with the slogan "Victory for the Vietcong". We should all, both here and outside, realise that there can be no military victory in Vietnam. If we supply funds to supply arms to the Vietcong, we are not helping to stop the murder and the slaughter. All we are doing is prolonging the agony of the people of Vietnam.
Mr. Winnick: I agree that efforts to supply arms to the Vietcong are not helpful in any way and I deplore such efforts, but would not my hon. Friend agree that to support the Americans in their efforts to secure a military victory in South Vietnam is equally deplorable?
Mr. Wellbeloved: Support for the Americans to secure victory in South Vietnam is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government. The Government have made it quite plain on numerous
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occasions that they are successfully using their influence to contain the American threat of escalation in Vietnam.
I also welcome the Motion's reference to the Prime Minister's statement of 29th June, because in that statement he quite clearly referred to where the main, although not the entire, responsibility lies for bringing about a cessation of hostilities—Hanoi. I believe this to be a fact. America is ready to talk without prior conditions. I do not mind what individual Senators or Congressmen may say in America, the United States Administration is on record as being prepared to go to the conference table without prior conditions. Great Britain is ready to reconvene the Geneva Conference without prior conditions.
If our aim is to stop the killing, if our first aim is peace in Vietnam, the demonstrations and banners which sometimes congregate outside the United States Embassy and outside No. 10 Downing Street might provide a greater incentive if they were paraded outside some other embassies where there is the influence which could bring peace in Vietnam.
It has been said on numerous occasions that all we need to do to stop this war is to stop the bombing in Vietnam. There was a slight disagreement between my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary about what was said at last year's Labour Party Conference. I have discussed this with my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and we have jointly looked up his words, and I think that he will agree with me that the burden of his remarks at that time was that the North Vietnamese would not come to the conference table while the bombing was taking place.
Mr. Mendelson: I made two points in my speech at conference. I said that, as long as the bombing continued, the North Vietnamese Government would not come to a conference and nor would its political friends be able to advise it to do so, and, secondly, that the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam must come to the conference as an independent party to the negotiations.
Mr. Wellbeloved: I completely accept that the National Liberation Front must be a party to a peace conference. I do

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not believe that that is in conflict with Government policy.
Mr. Mendelson: The Americans are against it.
Mr. Wellbeloved: I do not think that the Americans are against it.
Mr. Dickens: On 26th June this year, Mr. Dean Rusk, the American Secretary of State, said that the National Liberation Front would not be admitted to a peace conference because that would be a veto on a settlement.
Mr. Wellbeloved: My hon. Friend's sources and mine are not in the same setting. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and I are agreed that he said that if the bombing stopped, the friends of the Hanoi authorities would persuade them to come to the conference table. The bombing stopped for 37 days and still we did not get a peace conference. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) said this afternoon that if only the cessation had continued for another three weeks, a peace conference could have taken place. I wonder.
Some of my hon. Friends a short time ago sent a telegram to some senators in Washington. They are now asking hon. Members who signed that telegram to pay £5 each to send a delegation of backbench Members to Washington. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is how I understand it. I did not sign the telegram and I certainly would not give £5 for that purpose, but I will give £10 tonight if they will have a subscription to send a back-bench delegation to Hanoi, for it is in Hanoi that we need to exercise an influence and it is in Hanoi that the break-through for peace and the breakthrough to the end of the blood and slaughter can be found.
My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) said that he would abstain in a Division and he gave, in his evaluation, very logical reasons for doing so. I recognise, as do all my hon. Friends, his sincerity and that of all those who are taking different views on this side of the House, but I believe that a vote against the Government or an abstention tonight would be not so much a demonstration or token
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of dissociation from American policy as a direct act of dissociation with the policy of the British Labour Government, and I believe that we need to spell that out quite clearly.
The situation in Vietnam is very difficult, and I have tried hard to understand the full facts. There are claims and counter-claims and speculation and sometimes there are Questions in the House which, to judge from the answers to them, are not based on correct information. It is very difficult for ordinary back bench Members to evaluate the facts. When I was re-elected in the last General Election I was determined to look again at the whole situation in Vietnam. I went to meetings upstairs, not of the Parliamentary Labour Party. but of bodies which meet here from time to time. I went to a meeting of a certain Council concerned with achieving peace in Vietnam.
We got into discussion about the bombing pause and someone, not an hon. Member of this House, got up and said, "Ah, but you did not get a conference to take place because there was not a bombing pause. The Americans stopped high-level bombing but they still went on with their strafing and low-level bombing". I was very confused, because if this was true, part of my beliefs fell to the ground. I wrote a letter to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, and in his reply he said that the allegation that there was not a total bombing pause was completely unfounded.
This is an important issue. This is war and peace we are talking about. My position is quite simple. In a confused situation when I, as an individual Member of this House, cannot obtain all the information I require to make my own decision, I am prepared to take an evaluation of the evidence of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary before I would take the evidence given out by any other source. I am prepared to take the analysis of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister before I am prepared to accept the analysis of any of my hon. Friends, or of any of my friends outside of the House who take a different view.
I shall be going through the Lobby tonight in support of the Government's policy, because I believe, equally passionately and sincerely as my hon.

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Friend the Member for Epping holds his beliefs, that the Government's policy is the best policy in this knife-edge situation to bring about a peaceful settlement in Vietnam.
8.37 p.m.
Mr. James Davidson: I am grateful to have the opportunity of putting forward the Liberal point of view on this matter. After listening to this very interesting and vital debate, I find that there is a certain amount of confusion, particularly among those on the official Opposition benches about the difference between appeasement and common sense. It seems that some hon. Gentlemen are still under the shadow of Mr. Neville Chamberlain's umbrella.
There is also a certain amount of Commonwealth sentiment here. I am very much pro-Commonwealth, in many different ways, but I would say that the quickest way to bring to an end the risk faced by Commonwealth troops arid American troops and airmen in Vietnam is to bring the parties concerned to the conference table. I should like to explain why we on the Liberal bench cannot support American action in Vietnam. It is not because we are anti-American in any way; it is simply because there is no genuine political objective in what the Americans are doing.
Their action is thoroughly self-defeating. If they achieved a military victory, and this is questionable, although they may obliterate the strong points and occupy the cities and towns, it is unlikely in my view that they will be able to occupy the terrain and eliminate the guerrilla forces they are up against. Even If they did this there will still be the threat of political collapse in South Vietnam, in the rear.
It must be appreciated that there is a wide gulf between the South Vietnam military junta and the South Vietnamese people. In this policy of escalation a point will be reached, is bound to be reached, when China will hit back. Possibly it will be when it appears that North Vietnam is on the point of collapse; possibly it will happen if the Americans go on with their bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong and extend it to the great dykes, which would bring the people of North Vietnam face to face
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with starvation. From there it is only a small step to the railways on the borders, the nuclear installations along the Chinese border, the oil, uranium and other mineral deposits and sources just the other side of the Chinese border.
If China comes in, what will Russia do? This is the big question. We should appreciate that Hanoi is protected by Soviet missiles. I am given to believe that there was a tacit understanding that as long as no bombs were dropped on Hanoi, no Migs would be put in North Vietnam. But that tacit understanding is finished, and it remains to be seen what will happen.
There has been no historical summary in the debate of what has gone before. I will not try in the time at my disposal to try to summarise the history of the last few years, but one or two facts should be pointed in order to arrive at a sensible conclusion to the debate. It is interesting that before 1885 Annam, which was the old name for Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, was part of the Chinese Empire—at least, it was one of those States which paid tribute to the Chinese at the time of the Manchu dynasty.
I miss out the long period of French colonial rule. The French annexed the country in 1885. During the period 1940–45 the National People's Party and the Buddhist Party, which are very much concerned in South Vietnam, collaborated with the Japanese under Vichy French direction, whereas on the other side the Communists, with, oddly enough, Chinese Nationalist support, formed a united anti-Japanese organisation, the Vietminh, with Ho Chi Minh, founder of the Vietnamese Communist Party, as its first general secretary. But the Vietminh was a party which incorporated certain Nationalist and other non-Communist elements.
In 1945, shortly before the Japanese surrender, they dissolved the Vichy French Administration and established an independent Vietnam under Bao Dai. It was after the Japanese surrender had been accepted by the British and the Nationalist Chinese that the independent republic of Vietnam was set up by the Vietminh, with Ho Chi Minh as President. The French, when they took over control, were fairly conciliatory in what

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was going on. In North Vietnam, the Vietminh at first co-operated with the non-Communist group. There was also initial co-operation with the Nationalist and Buddhist Parties.
In January, 1946, a provisional Government of the Democratic Republic Organisation organised elections in North and Central Vietnam and in the areas of South Vietnam which it controlled. It achieved a majority but with nationalist groups represented. The Chinese Nationalists withdrew and in Hanoi—this is where the Western nations first slipped up—the French gave official recognition to the new Government of the Democratic Republic and agreed to withdraw by 1952. A referendum was to be held to see whether South Vietnam would join the North, but it was never held and the French established a provisional Government in South Vietnam.
From then on, relations deteriorated rapidly. Naturally, Vietnam considered this a breach of agreement and war commenced with the French bombardment of Haiphong. It was not until three years later that the Vietminh allegiance to Communism was openly proclaimed and they broke with the non-Communist elements. Later, the French set up a rival non-Communist Government in Saigon with a claim to the whole of Vietnam and with the puppet Emperor, Bao Dai. His Government was recognised by the U.S.A., the United Kingdom, and most other Western countries. This was the first occasion on which the Americans became vitally interested in what went on in Vietnam. The Communist countries recognised the Vietminh.
I do not want to go on with this story indefinitely because it gets incredibly complicated. But when the Geneva Conference was convened under the joint chairmanship of the U.S.S.R. and the United Kingdom, there was agreement on a cease-fire and the regroupings north and south of the 17th Parallel and free civilian movement across the Parallel.
An international control commission was set up with representatives from India, Canada and Poland, and there was agreement to hold reunification elections throughout Vietnam in 1956. At that point, the U.S.A. reserved their position
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in support of the Bao Dai Government. The French had withdrawn by that time. When, a little later, Diem started suppressing the nationalist and Buddhist parties which still supported Bao Dai, there was a rigged election and he came to power. From 1961 onwards, there was a steady build-up of U.S. forces. In 1963, pro-Roman Catholic and anti-Buddhist discrimination by Diem started. We all know the rest of the story. We now have North Vietnam, with a population of 17 million controlled by the Communist Party, the Vietcong, with Ho Chi Minh as President. On the other side, we have the Armed Forces Congress, with U.S. support and Marshal Ky as Prime Minister.
I am going through this background simply to show that if anyone still thinks that this is a straightforward case of containing Communist aggression, he is wildly off the mark. South Vietnam is not independent in any sense. The United States pay for practically everything, including 80 per cent. of the budget. Formerly a big exporter of rice, it now has to import it in very large quantities. Apparently the Vietnamese officials are so corrupt that the Americans have had to introduce direct administration at every level. The South Vietnamese Army is largely an army of mercenaries, and something like 50,000 Vietnamese have left constructive employment in the rice and rubber plantations to earn very high wages building bases and airfields for the Americans. No wonder the Vietminh doubt whether the Americans really intend to get out. Are these bases and so on being built permanently?
Apart from the economic disruption, there is the senseless brutality of it all. I should like to quote from something written by a French expert on the country. He is a journalist who was an adviser to de Gaulle. He has been in the country for many years and knows it inside out. His name is Robert Guillain, and he may be known to some hon. Members.
He says.
"… the spectacle of heavily-armed white men killing badly-armed yellow men is having a devastating effect throughout Asia."
He estimates that in 1965 alone, nearly 100,000 were killed in bombing attacks,

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not to mention those maimed or half-burned with napalm. He goes on:
"There is one element which does not figure in American computer figures, and that is the incredible Asiatic capacity of suffering and resistance. The Vietnamese are even tougher in that respect than the Chinese and Japanese. At guerrilla war the South Vietnamese are better than the North Vietnamese, and much better than the Chinese …. Moreover, they are sly, cunning and virtuoso at playing a double game. The Americans just didn't know what kind of country they took on. The longer the war and the occupation last, the more likely will there be a rising of a whole people. The war and the G.Is. are, every day, creating more resistance than all the propaganda of Hanoi and Peking. The U.S.A. can destroy the country entirely with their bombs; they will not be able to hold it or occupy it indefinitely."
This is not a choice between Communism and democracy, but between the nationalist Communist movement on the one hand, and a corrupt and indeterminate regime which will have to be upheld by American presence far into the foreseeable future, whatever the military outcome may be, on the other.
There is no disloyalty at all in criticising the action of the Americans. Members of the Opposition would do well to recall the United States criticism of their Government at the time of Suez. There is a further parallel, because some 30 U.S. Senators and 80 Congressmen are opposing President Johnson's policy, just as many hon. Members of this House opposed the Conservative Government policy at the time of Suez. A man whom I know personally and for whom I have immense respect, Mr. Kennan, who was formerly U.S. Ambassador in the U.S.S.R., has also publicly taken the same view as those Senators and Congressmen who differ from the view taken by President Johnson.
As I say, it is not a war to contain Communism, and those who think that it is should do a short study of Communist expansion. It has never had much success except in the wake of a war and through the medium of some indigenous nationalist Communist movement, sustained on economic disruption. Communism may have some theoretical attraction as a short cut to higher living standards, but more often it is simply a cloak for nationalism. Naturally, China wishes to secure her position. For decades she has been surrounded and ostracised. No doubt she would like to bring under her control all the former
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provinces of the Ching Empire—Manchuria, Mongolia, Turkistan and Tibet—and she would probably also like to neutralise the countries which at one time paid tribute to the Ching dynasty—Nepal, Burma, Siam, Annam and Korea.
I said "neutralise", but I do not believe that China's territorial ambitions extend any further, except possibly, and this is interesting, in the Sinkiang area and Amur River area of the U.S.S.R. It is worth remarking that Mao Tse-tung laid claim to Vladivostok in 1964.
The great danger is that American action will force the Soviet Union into supporting the Vietcong openly, and that in turn could encourage China to take off her kid gloves. In fairness, we should remember that the United States rejected all suggestions for negotiations with the North Vietnam Government or the National Liberation Front until April last year. Two years ago, President Johnson dismissed General de Gaulle's call for an international conference with the famous words,
"We do not believe in a conference called to ratify terror."
Certainly, no conference has ratified the bombing of Hanoi.
As late as February, 1965, the United States stated that a Communist cease-fire was an essential preliminary to any negotiation. In April, 1965, admittedly, they offered unconditional discussions, but immediately repeated the objective as the independence of South Vietnam, which in itself is a condition contrary to the Geneva Agreements of 1954.
The North Vietnam Government have expressed willingness to negotiate, provided that reunification is the ultimate objective. Their attitude, although it has hardened lately, still suggests that the condition of United States withdrawal need only be accepted in principle before negotiations. The Chinese attitude is far less compromising. The United States air offensive undoubtedly prevents the U.S.S.R. at the moment from following an independent policy.
The only sensible solution, in our view, is that the United States should confine her military action in Vietnam to the defence of the areas which the United States forces can effectively control, something on the lines of the Fulbright Plan,

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while conducting at the same time a peace offensive to bring the parties concerned to the conference table.
Britain and the U.S.S.R. should use their influence, such as it is, to reconvene the Geneva Conference. Whilst we welcome the Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to Moscow, and wish him the best of luck in his visit, we should first dissociate ourselves from American action in North Vietnam.
It is fashionable to be a cynic, but it is neither over idealistic nor too late to secure a cease-fire and peaceful reunification of North and South Vietnam on the basis of withdrawal of United States forces to fortified areas, cessation of all bombing attacks, and an undertaking that in due course the United States forces will be entirely withdrawn from Vietnam, leading finally to elections supervised by an international control commission, which would have to remain until an elected Government was in control.
There seem to be just four points in dispute. The United States will not negotiate with the National Liberation Front. They have also said that they want free elections in South Vietnam. If they would agree to negotiate with the National Liberation Front and agree to free elections throughout Vietnam, the position from their point of view would be entirely changed.
On the other side, the North Vietnamese want United States withdrawal as a preliminary condition. They also want no intervention by the United Nations. If they would be prepared to concede on these two points, I see no reason why a solution should not be found within a reasonably short time.
8.54 p.m.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The speech that we have just heard from the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) and many of the other contributions to this debate, including the speech with which the Foreign Secretary opened it, have justified the opinion expressed from all parts of the House that a debate on Vietnam and the situation in South-East Asia was timely. I have constantly suggested to the Patronage Secretary in this Parliament that we should have debates on various geo-
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graphical areas because they would help the House of Commons and Parliament to concentrate its mind on the particular problems. If he were here, I would say to him now that I think it almost a pity that this was not a two-day debate, so much material is there and so many Members are there on both sides who would like to have contributed.
The debate has been valuable also in that it has restored a sense of proportion and perspective, eliminating some of the extreme reactions which we have had to to the situation in South Vietnam in recent weeks. When war is in the air—and on the ground, too—as it is in Vietnam, emotion and panic are bad counsellors, and there have lately been signs of both.
I shall start with some comments on and reactions to the speeches made from below the Gangway opposite. The position of the Government's critics has been restated with force and clarity. I hope that I am not unfair if I paraphrase the speeches in this way. Hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, notably the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Newens), who made the most eloquent speech on the matter, say that they thoroughly dislike the United States policy. They have never given the Americans the benefit of the doubt, and they do not intend to do so now. The fact that the President of the United States has offered peace talks and to come to the peace table without conditions has made no dent in their prejudices.
That is a point of view which they have put with great clarity and strength. It is, of course, a point of view which can be held and which should be ventilated in this House. No one having listened to the debate in the Chamber today could possibly misunderstand the position. It is as I have stated it. No one could question in any way the sincerity of the hon. Gentlemen who have put it forward and who hold that view with passion, although we may question the direction of their criticism. But, although 46—or whatever their number may be—are willing to vote against the Government, and 106 may sign a Motion critical of Government policy and wish for a United States withdrawal from Vietnam, that, if I may say so, is not the reason for or the point of this debate today. It is not what the debate is about.

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The question at issue—fundamentally, this is the subject of our debate today—after the two statements, the first by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Defence that Britain would not sell arms to the United States if they were to be used in Vietnam, and the second by the Prime Minister dissociating himself from the bombing of the oil storage tanks, is whether the Government now have any foreign policy at all.
I interpolate here one comment on the Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to Moscow. Every contact with the Soviet Government by Ministers of Her Majesty's Government is good. I have said in debate after debate that we shall not reach a settlement in South Vietnam unless the co-operation of the Soviet Government is enlisted. That is perfectly true. The Prime Minister's visit to Moscow may smack of opportunism, but that, if I may put it kindly to him, is his own fault because this has been his habit for so long. It smacks, too, of "instant" diplomacy, which very seldom shows diplomatic and positive results because these matters require preparation.
But we support his visit. We wish him well when he goes to Moscow, provided he realises and remembers that he moment he made the statement dissociating himself from the United States action the letter boxes in the Kremlin were wide open day and night awaiting a letter from him asking for an interview. if his own letter was not going to come, no doubt the Russians had one ready. They are the masters of dividing and ruling. Provided that the Prime Minister understands this, as I am sure he does, there will be no danger. I hope that his visit is completely successful and that he makes progress with the Soviet Union on the Vietnam question.
I return to the fundamental question underlying this debate: have the Government got a foreign policy, with a theme and a purpose? They had a foreign policy a few weeks ago. Never was a Government so ostentatiously close to the United States. There was universal comment that they were boastfully dependent on them, and my Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) properly made this point. The Government's policy was
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most emphatically a definite foreign policy.
In a dangerous world it ranged the big battalions on the side of the United Kingdom, and in a period of economic strain it put alongside us powerful reserves of wealth. The policy of close alignment and close alliance with the United States was a realistic one, and it was accepted by a great majority of this country as such.
But suddenly the Prime Minister, who had been the architect of this policy and the champion of it, began to waver, not because he believed that the policy was wrong, but because he had to make political concessions to the anti-American lobby in his party. From that moment the question was raised as to whether the Government had a foreign policy.
The Prime Minister cannot be so insensitive as not to realise the extent of the blow that he has given to a great ally by the two statements, the one which he allowed the Secretary of State for Defence to make, and the other which he made himself. The Secretary of State for Defence said:
"… we do not propose to sell arms"—
to the United States—
"directly or indirectly for the fighting in Vietnam."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1966; Vol. 730, c. 919.]
If the enormity of this is not obvious to the Prime Minister, let me put it to him in this way. He and the Secretary of State for Defence have made Great Britain dependent on the United States for air defence and dependent on American arms to the extent that no other Government has ever done. What would he say, and perhaps will he say, if the United States were to come along and say that those American arms could be used only for objectives of which the United States Government approved? I can imagine his language at that time. He would say that they were not much of an ally, and he would be right.
The second statement was made by himself when he actively dissociated us from the bombing of the oil storage tanks. This is where I thought the Foreign Secretary, who made a most admirable and clear speech, as he does so often, first became unconvincing to the House. It is within the recollection of the House, and it was recalled by the hon. Member for

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Epping, who I am sorry is not in his place.
The hon. Gentleman said that the Prime Minister and the Government had justified the bombing by the United States of supply lines, of arms depots and of unoccupied villages, yet when we come to another essentially military target, for this is what the oil tanks are, the Prime Minister, without waiting for the facts, to see whether there had been extensive casualties—and subsequent events have proved that there were not—immediately dissociated the British Government from this act, with all the implications of this dissociation for the alliance.
I want to ask the Prime Minister a question that was asked earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle). Perhaps he will tell us the answer this evening, if he can. When he made this decision did he have the Report of the Control Commission for Laos in his hands, signed by the Canadian and Indian representatives, which shows clearly the extent of the infiltration through Laos of North Vietnamese troops and supplies? If he did not, will he now make it available to the House? If he had it in his hands and had read the information in it, he had every opportunity, on the evidence of that report, signed by neutral Powers—the Canadians and the Indians—to support the American action in bombing the oil supplies. This Report shows how extensive they are.
I think that I have fairly stated the attitude of the extreme critics of the Government, but when I heard the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Dr. John Dunwoody) speak I was astonished to hear one thing he said. By reputation he is a moderate Socialist, and a supporter of the Government. I know that I am not quoting him exactly, but in effect he said that dissociation from the Americans was a very powerful weapon in our hands. All I can say is that if that is the spirit which animates the Socialist Party when it considers our alliance with the United States we were fully justified in putting down our Amendment this evening.
I should like to know whether, having dealt two successive blows at our American allies, the Government have any
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foreign policy at all. Certainly, on the evidence—there may be a change after the visit of the French Prime Minister; I hope so—the Government have no European policy to substitute for the American one. Our friends in the Middle East accuse us of breaking trust, because we have left there a vacuum of power. The Government profess the intention of retaining a presence in the Far East, but by putting a rigid ceiling on defence expenditure they have reduced the credibility of our intention to our allies and Commonwealth partners.
I hope that we shall not hear any more of one argument which has been used in recent years by the Prime Minister. I hope that after General de Gaulle's visit to Russia the bogus argument that political relations with the Soviet Union would be strained to breaking point if we independently owned our nuclear arm will not be repeated from the benches opposite.
I want to examine some of the facts of the Vietnam situation and some of the questions which have been seriously raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and also to say a word about the shape of possible political solutions. What are the facts? Some hon. Members opposite did not face them fairly or squarely. South Vietnamese independence is threatened not only by the Vietcong but by North Vietnamese troops in substantial numbers. That cannot be disputed.
Nor can it be disputed that North Vietnam has rejected any form of political conference. Nor can anybody question the statement that if the United States shield were withdrawn from South Vietnam before a political settlement—which is what a number of hon. Members opposite want—South Vietnam would collapse and Laos and Thailand would, in turn, be threatened.
There is one question that hon. Members below the Gangway opposite have failed to answer during all our debates in recent months, and today. If a political conference cannot be convened and a truce cannot be established, which is the fact today, what alternative is there but for the Americans to remain and, in doing so, to curtail the aggression so that it is made too expensive to continue? No hon. Gentleman has yet answered that—
Mr. Norman Buchan: Surely the point is that the presence of the Americans is the very irritant which prevents the conference which we all seek from taking place?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: This argument in another form has been repeated ad nauseam during the debate. "Stop the American bombing", they say, "but do not stop the infiltration from North Vietnam". What is the fairness and the sense in that? This is not a proposition which can be sustained.
I would remind the House, as I have done on previous occasions—this was the point of my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys)—that if, as I think is certain, there is a collapse of South Vietnam on the withdrawal of American troops, Laos and Thailand will be the next targets. If Thailand is threatened or attacked, the S.E.A.T.O. alliance and all its conditions comes into operation. We are obliged, under the S.E.A.T.O. alliance, to come o the assistance of Thailand. We can judge the amount of the assistance we give, but the obligation is automatic.
In that case, we should be involved with the United States, Australia, New Zealand and the Philipines in an Asian war. Let us be quite clear about that, I have said before and I say again that the Americans are fighting a battle in advance of the S.E.A.T.O. area, but unless the Americans succeed that battle will become the battle of the S.E.A.T.O. alliance. including Great Britain, against the North Vietnamese and the Chinese. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will at least recognise that.
There is genuine concern about escalation, which a number of hon. Members have felt is a great danger, particularly the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker). I do not know what advice the Foreign Secretary is getting, but I guess that it is something like this, that the Soviet Government will not commit itself deeply, certainly not with troops, and only perfunctorily with arms. It is worth while our asking why they should assist the Chinese to any tactical or strategic advantage, when they know that the areas of the world most coveted by the Chinese are the territories in Central Asia at present included within the frontiers
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of the Soviet Union. They will not help the Chinese to any tactical advantage.
What about China? The Chinese could not in any foreseeable future challenge United States power, nor have they any intention of doing so. The object of the Chinese is to build up their strength over a number of years, if necessary at the expense of their neighbours—if they are easy prey—so that they may, in time, meet the Soviet Union and the United States on equal terms.
War is cruel and harsh and operates harshly on many innocent people, but when one looks at the evidence, one is bound to say—I think the Foreign Secretary is bound to be advised—that the evidence of escalation is indeed small. Certainly, the United States are not concerned to extend their commitments in Asia. Quite the contrary: there interest is to contract them.
Finally, on the broad nature of the possible political settlements and the security of South-East Asia. We cannot separate or put into isolated compartments the situation in South Vietnam today and the whole of South-East Asia tomorrow. One cannot, after all that has happened since 1954 and 1963, divorce the two.
To the British and Soviet Co-Chairmen of the Geneva Conference, the first solution which naturally comes to mind is the creation of a belt of unaligned States, including, at the minimum, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. That idea is attractive. It was the goal in 1954, and it was the goal in the Laotian settlement of 1963, and nobody has been able to think of a very much better solution today.
However, we have, if we are realistic, to remember that this solution, ideal though it may be, has twice broken down; first, because the Vietcong in South Vietnam made the work of the Control Commission impossible, and secondly, because as soon as—although, really before—the ink was dry on the Laotian settlement the Pathet Lao, aided and abetted by the North Vietnamese, did not, as the Geneva Agreement laid down, withdraw their forces. On the contrary, they tightened their grip on one-third of Loatian territory and there they are today, ready to move further into that country the moment it suits them. We must, therefore, remember these things.

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Thus, I think the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary will find that there is now not sufficient confidence anywhere, particularly in Thailand and Malaysia, for such a solution to be repeated in exactly the same form and pattern as it was in 1954 or 1963. The first thing that one must consider is this. If there is going to be an attempt to create a belt of neutral Powers, then not only would the task have to be undertaken by the United Nations, but certainly the Secretary-General of the United Nations would have to drop the condition, which has operated in respect of all policing arrangements up to now, that there should not be a continuance of troops from the great Powers. But it is inconceivable that this area could be policed unless there was policing from police forces including contributions from the larger Powers.
The parallel to any such solution would, I think, have to be something more. If there is no confidence on which to rest a purely political solution of this kind, it is because the countries of South-East Asia in the immediate front line of a possible battle—further behind, India, further away, New Zealand and Australia—have weighed up the intentions of the North Vietnamese, backed by the Chinese, and none of them feels secure.
Therefore, as part of any political settlement, there would have to be devised some security system for South-East Asia as a whole. I suppose that the first and most desirable form which this might take would be a security system, a collective security system, by Asians for Asians. Malaysia and Indonesia have considerable potential strength and if that were based ultimately on the sub-continent of India one would have a combination of strength there sufficient to halt any aggression by the North Vietnamese or the Chinese. But it is only realistic to remember that there is not even the shadow of a fabric of such a military organisation in that part of the world as yet, and, therefore, if this is to come, time must be created in which a collective security system by Asians for Asians can be contrived.
The second possibility is the extension and enlargement of the S.E.A.T.O. alliance. One of the weaknesses of the S.E.A.T.O. alliance has been that it has
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not included the Malays or the Indonesians. They, at any rate, are beginning now to see that they have a common interest in stopping any aggression; they are both equally afraid. Therefore, in time, if the countries of the West and the United States and ourselves were prepared to try to give a lead in organising this kind of collective security system, if the Asian partners were to wish it, the rôle of the United States and Britain might be that of guarding the Pacific and the Indonesian and Indian seas, while the Asians looked after the Asian mainland.
The Foreign Secretary did not in any detail go into these matters. Are the Government considering this kind of question? Have they taken any initiative with the Indians or the Malays or the Thais to see whether the S.E.A.T.O. alliance can be re-formed in a more realistic way, or, indeed, whether the West can create the kind of guarantee behind which an Asian collective security system can be built and therefore that the political evolution of South-East Asia can take its course in order and peace? There is so much, I believe, here that British leadership can do, but there is not any evidence whatever, I am sorry to say, that it is, in fact, being done. I hope that the Prime Minister can remove some of our doubts.
We had to move this Amendment to the Government Motion. That Motion is the longest, the washiest and wettest Motion ever put, I should think, on the Order Paper of the House of Commons. It has the fatal defect from our point of view on these Opposition benches that nowhere in it is there any mention of the Government's full support of the American policy in Vietnam. The Foreign Secretary was much more full-blooded today. If he can make that sort of speech, why cannot he write a Motion saying what he feels, putting it down in black and white? From these benches we wish to demonstrate firm general support of the United States in Vietnam.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), in his new rôle—a very agreeable rôle, and one which would almost qualify him for a seat in another place—[Laughter.]such statesmanship did he show today in putting most polite questions to the Opposition and making the most rough

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and vigorous charges against his own colleagues below the Gangway. He asked me to say what the Opposition would do, where they would stop in supporting the Americans, and I shall answer his question. But the Foreign Secretary quite rightly said, of course, that r o British Government, no one in the British House of Commons, can say "We will support everything the Americans do right or wrong." What we are saying is that in this question of the American bombing of military targets in Vietnam the American Government were right and the judgment of the British Prime Minister was wrong—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] This we have stated—
Mr. William Hamilton: The right hon. Gentleman refuses to answer my question, which was: would the Opposition approve of the sending of British troops and/or the use of the nuclear weapon?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: These questions Lave not arisen—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—if they do we judge these matters on their merits—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—and we support—[Interruption.] I will have to cut in to the Prime Minister's time at this rate. We support the American policy as it has been revealed, and the actions the Americans have taken—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]
We do not know what further action they will take—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—but we judge the alliance quite differently from most hon. and right lion. Members opposite. We do not say, as the hon. Member did, that to dissociate ourselves from the American alliance is a useful and a good weapon to have in our hands. That is not the spirit in which we approach the American alliance, but we judge every case on its merits and because the merits of supporting the Americans in this case are overwhelming, we shall go into the Lobby in support of our Amendment.
9.25 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): The House will feel that what was for the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) a highly effective speech was completely ruined in the last three minutes when he failed to reply to the
798
question which my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) had addressed to him.
I should like to thank the right hon. Member for the good wishes he expressed to me and for his advice and counsel about dealings with the Kremlin. I am sure it was not his intention that his advice should sound so patronising.— [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—I recognise, of course, that he has had substantial dealings with the Kremlin. He will recognise that I was dealing with them also successfully seven years before he became a junior Minister.
When the right hon. Gentleman asked me—[Interruption.]—when the right hon. Gentleman asked me about infiltration in Laos and referred to the report of the Control Commission, as did the Leader of the Opposition, certainly I had that report in mind and certainly its conclusions were well known to us. Indeed, as I have said more than once in this House, it was the fact of infiltration down the Ho Chi-Minh trail—trail it was then, now it is a paved highway—from North Vietnam which led us to support early last year the change in American policy in relation to the bombing of North Vietnam. Although many hon. Members in many parts of the House have referred to breaches of the 1954 Agreement by all parties, it is a fact, of course, that the 1962 Agreement on Laos with which the right hon. Gentleman was so much concerned was in fact breached from the moment Laos was used as a route of entry into Vietnam.
Indeed, I think it is very sad for many of us on both sides of the House that the right hon. Gentleman who negotiated for this neutralist establishment in Laos, for those of us who supported him and pressed him in that work to feel that many of the high hopes we had in Laos two or three years ago have been to some extent frustrated by the regular use of Laos as a supply route into Vietnam.
When he referred to what he thought was a one-sided approach by some hon. Members calling only for an end to the bombing and not for the end of infiltration, the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that it has been the policy of the Government throughout—it was indeed a central feature of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' communiqué

799
on Vietnam last year—that we called for an end of the bombing and of the infiltration as a means of getting an end to hostilities before we could have peace negotiations for a settlement in Vietnam.
Every debate on Vietnam is characterised by great passion, great feeling and great emotion, and understandably so. Everybody in this House, whatever our different points of view, shares the anxieties and the feelings that have been expressed in very graphic terms from different parts of the House and by hon. Members of different points of view about this cruel war in Vietnam. Whatever may divide us—we are divided about the policy that ought to be followed by various of the parties to this dispute, and indeed, by Her Majesty's Government themselves—we are united, every one of us, in our passionate desire—[Interruption.] Perhaps I might appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to rise above his frivolity and take this Vietnam subject with the seriousness which it demands. I was saying that we are united, every one of us—[Laughter.] If hon. Members, who asked for this debate, regard the tragedies of Vietnam as a laughing matter, I can only express my profoundest regret.
I was saying that we are united, every one of us, even those who are laughing and tittering about this Vietnam tragedy—I hope we are united—in our passionate desire to see this war ended at the earliest possible moment. The reasons why we are united about it have been set out by many of us today and in other debates. First, every day that this war continues means the death of more innocent Vietnamese, North and South. To men, women and children it means maiming and mutilation; it means children rendered fatherless, it means families rendered homeless, in a country to which peace has been a stranger now for almost a generation.
Hon. Members have referred to barbarism. Modern war is barbarous and sufferings are not confined to one side. Some of my hon. Friends have referred to the victims of bombing in North Vietnam. All of us have been aware, equally, of those who have suffered as a result of murderous attacks on peaceful villages in the South, because these are part, as
800
we all recognise, of civil war. And a civil war, as in part this is, yields to no other kind of war in atrocities and barbarism.
This will continue as long as the war lasts. This is why it is the duty of every one of us to bring our counsel, aid and resolve, because, without all these, expressions of sympathy are simply empty phrases, not in condemnation, but to laying conditions which could bring this fight to an end at the earliest possible moment. This is one factor which unites us in our determination to end the war.
Equally, we are concerned about the international dangers of this war, the dangers of it spreading into a conflagration covering a far wider part of Asia. Here we cannot exclude the parallel danger of aggression and infiltration into other parts of Asia which, if it is not met with resistance in Vietnam, might spread into other countries which are still at peace. We have to look into these factors when we consider what our policy should be.
There are those who, seeing no possible end to this war, are fearful, not only of its spreading in geographical terms to other parts of Asia, but of an escalation to the frontiers of a nuclear war, perhaps to a thermo-nuclear holocaust. These are the stakes we are debating today.
There is a third reason. All our hopes and dreams of reducing East-West tension in Europe, and more widely than Europe, hopes which all of us feel are matched by real possibilities at this time, remain unfulfilled because this Vietnamese war spreads a cloud of poison over East-West relations. I am convinced, as right hon. Members opposite have said at various times—indeed, hon. Members in all parts of the House have said this—that the Soviet Union is ready, as we are, for practical moves towards reducing East-West tension, that an advance in the field of disarmament and arms control could be within our grasp. Anyone who has talked, as so many of us in all parts of the House have, with Soviet statesmen and others in these past years, and especially over the past 18 months, will know that the Vietnamese conflict lays an icy hand on all our hopes.
So far we are all agreed about the three urgent reasons why this war should be brought to an end. I come to where

801
we disagree. May I say that in our disagreement I accept the deep sincerity of those who are critical of the Government's basic policy as fully as I ask them to believe in mine and that of my right hon. Friends. Where we disagree is in the means of a solution and in the difficulties of a solution and the cause of those difficulties. Indeed, perhaps there is not all that disagreement about the means of a solution. I think all of us recognise now that the problems of Vietnam no longer lend themselves, if they ever did lend themselves, to a purely military solution. I have not heard the argument put forward recently that this problem can be solved with a military solution. There can be no imposed solution by either side. Only a political settlement—one that is also acceptable to the people of Vietnam themselves—can end this war.
Some of us have talked at various times about this but there are those outside this House who carry banners calling for peace in Vietnam. Last weekend there was a march down Whitehall. It came into Downing Street. There were the usual banners with slogans, one of them "Peace in Vietnam". But there was another which said "Victory for the Vietcong". These are incompatible ends. One can talk about victory for someone but not about peace in Vietnam at the same time.
This is why the House will have noted the cynical attitude of the Chinese Prime Minister when he was in Rumania last week. The House will have seen reports in the British Press from Eastern European sources that he told the Rumanian leader that even the destruction of most of Vietnam would be justified by the result, the eventual emergence of a superior Communist society. No one in this House shares the view that this war is to go on to the bitter end to secure victory for one or the other political ideology. It is the view of all of us that we want to see talks so that peace can be negotiated on lines acceptable to the people of Vietnam themselves. That is the view of the United States Government, as it is our view and the view of everyone in this House.
Most of us believe that the right solution would lie in the reactivation of the Geneva Conference so that all parties concerned could negotiate a peaceful
802
settlement. That has been said from both Front Benches for almost as long as we have been debating Vietnam. All of us would feel that such a conference is possible without a prior cease-fire—that it would be possible to negotiate in Geneva even while the fighting went on. However that may be, I think that we would feel that the hopes of a compromise—the give and take needed to get an acceptable solution—would be less easily heard against the background of gunfire or bombing or stealthy infiltration and murder.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that we should be giving thought now to two main subjects—first, how to get a peace conference opened—a matter which has exercised all of us for a long time—and, secondly, the outcome that we want to see emerge from the negotiations. That is not exactly a new point, but perhaps it has not been stressed so much.
I remind the right hon. Gentleman that more than a year ago the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference gave a great deal of thought to these matters and that they issued a statement—all 20 of them, including the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand, to whom the right hon. Gentleman referred. Last October the Labour Party conference unanimously endorsed a statement based on the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' proposals both on the means of getting peace talks started and on the kind of outcome we hoped they would lead to. The Government Motion is completely consistent with both statements. Apart from the necessary House of Commons language, it represents word for word the Labour Party manifesto, which derived from the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' communiqué.
In view of what has been said, I remind the House that the guide-lines for the proposed Commonwealth Peace Mission included the following statement, which, repeat, was agreed on by all Commonwealth Prime Ministers:

"(a) a suspension of all United States air attacks on North Vietnam;

(b) a North Vietnamese undertaking to prevent the movement of any military forces or assistance or material to South Vietnam;"

These two are bracketed together, as the right hon. Gentleman said.

803
"(c) a total cease-fire on all sides to enable a conference to be convened to seek a peaceful solution;
(d) the objectives of such a conference might be to:

(i) end the war in Vietnam;

(ii) secure the withdrawal of all foreign military presence from Vietnam and the neutralisation of the area;

(iii) establish, for a period, an international peace force, under the auspices of the Geneva Agreement, to safeguard peace in Vietnam;

(iv) establish principles for the eventual unification of the country through free and internationally supervised elections."

That was a clear statement.
Obviously, an ultimate solution must be a matter for negotiations and on the whole I would deprecate going into too much detail about what is to emerge. But I remind the House that the United States President has recently again called for unconditional negotiations—unconditional—and that he has laid down no conditions as to the outcome of these negotiations. The problem is, of course, that we have the five Phan Van Dong conditions from Hanoi—there were four and there is now a fifth which is more difficult than the others—saying that in the negotiations not merely must the Viet-cong be represented—which is a reasonable claim which many of us have pressed—but that only the Vietcong shall be represented as speaking for the people of South Vietnam.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon seemed to be criticising some of the parts of our Motion which looked to the future at the end of the fighting and the end of the negotiations. But if he has doubts about parts of that formula, I have to say that he is quarrelling not only with me, which is fairly familiar ground between us, but with virtually the whole Commonwealth in so far as it expressed itself in that communiqué of a year ago. Nevertheless, we all recognise his right to an independent judgment on this if he feels that the Commonwealth is wrong.
This afternoon my right hon. Friend once again gave the House a summary of all that we have done to try to bring the parties to the conference table. Of course it is true that all of these efforts have failed. But I beseech the right hon. Gentleman to dissociate himself from the
804
argument that an initiative which fails is one which ought never to have been undertaken. That is only too easy. There were and there still are a lot of jibes about the Commonwealth Peace Mission whenever it is mentioned in the House from some hon. Member opposite. But, as I have said, this was the view of 20 Commonwealth Prime Ministers and it was enthusiastically supported by, among others, the Prime Minister of Australia, a country to which the right hon. Gentleman frequently referred in his speech today. It was accepted and supported in a great part of the world including Washington.
The fact that Hanoi refused to accept it does not mean that it was wrong to try to get it established, particularly since, for reasons which I have more than once explained to the House, it was not possible to invoke the United Nations for a settlement to this question precisely because of the difficulties of using the Security Council, and the whole House knows of those difficulties. It was, therefore, essential to try to invoke the next best thing, namely, the Commonwealth, representing one-quarter of the world's population and one-fifth of the number of countries in the United Nations and representing every conceivable point of view, non-aligned and pro one side or the other, in the Vietnam dispute.
Few things caused right hon. Gentlemen opposite more innocent fun than the mission of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance to Hanoi last year, but his task was to bring home to the authorities in Hanoi the views of the Commonwealth Mission and the Commonwealth communiqué and to assure them of the sincerity of the 20 Commonwealth statesmen who had joined in taking this initiative. I hope that a year' later, even though that Mission failed, right hon. Gentlemen opposite will no longer think that it was wrong to try, or that it would be wrong to try the next time.
I have told the House often enough, when we have heard from right hon. Gentlemen opposite that we wanted patient diplomatic discussions through Moscow, that the key to this problem lies in Hanoi. That is why we have tried every possible means, and some of

805
them very unorthodox, as I concede, for getting the message through to Hanoi. When I was in Moscow in February, my noble Friend the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, Lord Chalfont, met the chargé d'affaires of the North 'Vietnamese Republic and argued with him for four hours. It failed, but we were right to try and we are right to go on trying.
Today we have the proposal of the Prime Minister of India which, as my right hon. Friend said, we welcome and which, because it is an appeal to the Co-Chairmen, we shall of course study with the utmost urgency. It is very much on lines which we welcome. One point which perhaps I should make right away is that it would seem from the formulation that the Prime Minister of India is talking as though it is necessary to get o cease-fire first. We all believe that this is desirable. On the other hand 1 would not feel, if there is no alternative, that we ought to insist on a ceasefire as a condition for negotiation. As I have said, this was the decision of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. It wanted a cease-fire but did not insist upon it. Let us not get into the position of saying that because 20 initiatives have failed, it is wrong to try a twenty-first.
Having dealt with the basic problems, because these have been the subject of many speeches by my hon. Friends, I now turn to deal with the question of last week's statement of dissociation from the bombing of the oil installations.
Sir Cyril Osborne rose—
The Prime Minister: I have a lot of ground to cover and a lot to answer. I am trying to understand here the position of the right hon. Gentleman. I must say that he spoke this afternoon with much greater moderation than at the weekend, when he was speaking in the country. His argument, as I understood it this afternoon, was that we support the United States in resistance to aggression for the reasons stated by my right hon. Friend and endorsed by the right hon. Gentleman, and that we were therefore wrong to dissociate ourselves from any action considered militarily necessary or of measurable military advantage which helped American troops there having regard also to the fact that
806
there are Australian and New Zealand ground forces there, too. At the weekend the right hon. Gentleman put it rather more extravagantly. He said that this Government, in dissociating themselves, were ratting on our American allies. That was the phrase he used and I am trying to analyse his argument. Is he saying that we must commit ourselves, automatically to support any action for which there is a strong—
Mr. Quintin Hogg rose—
The Prime Minister: We listened very quietly to the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon. I want to go right through the logic of his argument. Is he saying that we must commit ourselves automatically to support any action for which there is a strong case, without any regard to wider considerations? He was asked this afternoon whether he would interpret this doctrine as meaning that he would support nuclear action. His answer was that this was hypothetical. Of course the whole question of the bombing of the oil installations was hypothetical until a week or two ago.
It is right to say that we had clearly stated our attitude in advance—not a day in advance, not a week in advance, but more than six months ago, and stated where it ought to be stated, to President Johnson himself. He understood the position absolutely clearly. We have stated this position publicly in this House last December and subsequently, and I hope that right hon. Gentlemen will feel that we were right to say this six months ago, when we saw this danger, rather than say that it was a hypothetical question and that we would wait until the bombing.
The right hon. Gentleman went so far as to say that he would be opposed to bombing civilian centres. I understood him to say this and this presumably would not be ratting on our allies. This is a matter of principle, and he thinks this is right. The oil installations were, as has been said, two miles from the city centre. Every effort was made, superhuman efforts were made, within the policy decision to carry out the bombing, to keep civilian casualties to an absolute minimum, as would be expected. But if it is wrong to bomb centres of a city, and wrong for us to dissociate ourselves from

807
the bombing two miles from the centre, where do we have to draw the line?
I am not saying that the right hon. Gentleman's argument is unrealistic or illogical. I am saying that it must be a matter of judgment, and that on his argument one has to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. This must be a matter of degree and judgment, up which we can honestly disagree in this House, or between ourselves and our American allies or the Australians and New Zealanders, about the difference between two miles from the city centre and one mile away. Whether it is right to dissociate can only be a question of honest judgment and it does not deserve the use of the extravagant language used by the right hon. Gentleman at the weekend. We believe in our obligations as Co-Chairmen. These are not laid down from Mount Sinai in tablets of stone. They must be matters of judgment, but our interpretation is different from the Russians, and is more austere. We do not go so far as the North Vietnamese, who say that they will not talk to anyone who supports the United States. But we believe that there are responsibilities upon us because we are Co-Chairmen. President Johnson stated this clearly in Washington a few months ago, and said that he recognised this obligation.
I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman accepts that the Co-Chairmanship carries with it separate obligations—for example, obligations different from the position of the Australian and New Zealand Governments. I do not know whether he feels that we are on the same footing or whether the Co-Chairmanship makes a difference. Let me give an example: they send troops, we do not because we are Co-Chairman. Does he agree that we are right? He owes it to the House to say whether he believes—[Interruption.]—I have said that as Co-Chairman we cannot consider sending troops.
Sir John Rodgers rose—
The Prime Minister: I am sorry; I want to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. I have said that as co-Chairman we are not sending troops. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton,—[Interruption.] As Co-Chairman we could not, and we have not consid-
808
ered sending troops for that reason; and for a second reason, which I agree is now ending, namely, the confrontation in Malaysia. But as Co-Chairman we are not sending troops. I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman agrees with that, whether he feels that we should send troops, or whether he still agrees that as Co-Chairman we should not send troops, because if he is saying that he is drawing the line again at a point where we are in a different position from the Americans; and I do not think that he would say that we were ratting if we did not send troops. That is ate point which I wanted to ask him about.
I turn to our Motion, which represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government. It is in full accord with the policies we have outlined in successive debates. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the need for deep thought to be given, not only to the means of getting the parties round the conference table, but to the ultimate solution which may emerge from it. As I have said, we have a duty to do this. Certainly, if we can compare the conditions of Phan Van Dong and, as I would call it, unconditional insistence by the United States on negotiations—that is our position, too—there is obviously a very great gap to bridge between that and the Phan Van Dong conditions. But the President of the United States said, "Let us go without conditions and they can bring up the Phan Van Dong conditions if they want to". But when we say in the Motion that this area should be neutral without foreign troops or bases, this is in accordance with what United States leaders have said a number of times.
Unlike the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, what we say in this statement is what we said in the election. This statement, apart from the last 20 words or so, is taken word for word from the manifesto which we put before the country and upon which all my hon. Friends were elected to the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes. The final words do not represent any change of policy on the part of Her Majesty's Government because, as I have explained, they are the expression after the event, namely, the bombing, of what we always said was our position long before the event. It was stated in the House on

809
21st December. Can the right hon. Gentleman say the same about his Amendment?
I wonder whether the Leader of the Opposition remembers these words on 26th March, five days before polling day in the General Election, when admittedly right hon. and hon. Members opposite were getting desperate:
"Under the Labour Government in the last 18 months, Britain has behaved perfectly clearly and perfectly recognisably as an American satellite…. While the Americans have ground deeper and deeper into the tragic morass of Vietnam, Britain's voice has been that of the obedient commentator. Each successive American act received prompt British endorsement. The Soviet Union could hardly have expected more favourable comment from its satrapes in Eastern Europe."
Those words were used by the right hon. Gentleman's defence spokesman five day's before polling day and they were never repudiated by the right hon. Gentleman. certainly not before the election was over. It was only after the election that he ordered his right hon. Friend to hold his tongue.
But that is not all. [Interruption.] This is not a red herring. The right hon. Gentleman also said on 26th March after referring to Vietnam:
"Over and over again it has been left to the Tory Party and above all to Mr. Hoath himself, to voice the legitimate claim of this country to a rational independence and distinctiveness of outlook and of policy."
[Interruption.] I will not weary the House with the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition himself, unless he presses me. With subtlety and cool calculation he managed during the election to convey that it was the Labour Party which was too close to the Americans, and he played cleverly on what he conceived to be the latent anti-American feeling in the country to which members of the Tory Party always appeal in their moments of desperation. They did it at the time of Suez, they did it over Katanga, and they

Division No. 100.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Abse, Leo

Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

Binns, John

Albu, Austen

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Bishop, E. S.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Barnes, Michael

Blackburn, F.

Alldritt, Walter

Barnett, Joel

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Allen, Scholefield

Baxter, William

Boardman, H.

Anderson, Donald

Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

Booth, Albert

Archer, Peter

Bence, Cyril

Boston, Terence

Armstrong, Ernest

Bann, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

Ashley, Jack

Bennett, James (C'gow, Bridgeton)

Bowden, Rt. Hn. Herbert

Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

Bessell, Peter

Boyden, James

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

Bidwell, Sydney

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

did it in the election last March. They give the impression at these times, somehow, that the Conservative Party—[Interruption.]
Mr. Goodhew Mr. Goodhew rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has obviously not given way.
The Prime Minister: I want the hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) to realise as well as the right hon. Gentleman what we were elected on. I want right hon. and hon. Members opposite, before they go into the Division Lobby, to recognise the extent to which they are dissociating themselves from what they said at the election, whereas we are voting for the precise policy that we put before the electorate, because those were the things that right hon. and hon. Members opposite were saying when they were seeking votes.
Now they are speaking in a different tone, and the difference is that the Motion on which we shall be voting represents, thought by thought and word for word, what we said and what we fought on when we were seeking from the country the mandate which we are now carrying out. That mandate was to do everything in our power to seek to bring the fighting in Vietnam to an end. That is what we are doing. We shall expect the usual jibes on any initiative which we take that may fail. [HON. MEMBERS: "They all fail."] Twenty may fail, and another 20 may fail, but we shall still go on trying. The trouble with hon. Gentlemen opposite and especially the right hon. Gentleman is that he never wins anything because he is never prepared to lose first.
Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 331, Noes 230.

Bradley, Tom

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Mason, Roy

Bray, Dr. Jeremy

Gregory, Arnold

Maxwell, Robert

Brooks, Edwin

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Mayhew, Christopher

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Mellish, Robert

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

Mendelson, J. J.

Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W)

Hamling, William

Mikardo, Ian

Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Hannan, William

Milian, Bruce

Buchan, Norman

Harper, Joseph

Miller, Dr. M. S.

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Hattersley, Roy

Molloy, William

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Hazell, Bert

Moorman, Eric

Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

Heffer, Eric S.

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Cant, R. B.

Henig, Stanley

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Carmichael, Neil

Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Hilton, W. S.

Moyle, Roland

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

Murray, Albert

Chapman, Donald

Hooley, Frank

Neal, Harold

Coe, Denis

Horner, John

Newens, Stan

Coleman, Donald

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

ConCannon, J. D.

Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Conlan, Bernard

Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

Norwood, Christopher

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Oakes, Gordon

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Howie, W.

Ogden, Eric

Crawshaw, Richard

Hoy, James

O'Malley, Brian

Cronin, John

Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Oram, Albert E.

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)

Orbach, Maurice

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Orme, Stanley

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Oswald, Thomas

Dalyell, Tam

Hunter, Adam

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

Darling, Rt. Hn. George

Hynd, John

Owen, Will (Morpeth)

Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

Paget, R. T.

Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak)

Palmer, Arthur

Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

Pardoe, John

Davies, Ifor (Cower)

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Park, Trevor

Davies, Robert (Cambridge)

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Delargy, Hugh

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Dell, Edmund

Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Dempsey, James

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Pentland, Norman

Dewar, Donald

Judd, Frank

Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

Kenyon, Clifford

Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

Dickens, James

Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

Dobson, Ray

Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Doig, Peter

Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

Donnelly, Desmond

Ledger, Ron

Price, William (Rugby)

Driberg, Tom

Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

Probert, Arthur

Dunn, James A.

Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Dunnett, Jack

Lee, John (Reading)

Randall, Harry

Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

Lestor, Miss Joan

Rankin, John

Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Redhead, Edward

Edelman, Maurice

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

Rees, Merlyn

Edwards, Robert (Blister)

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Reynolds, G. W.

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

Lipton, Marcus

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Ellis, John

Lomas, Kenneth

Richard, Ivor

English, Michael

Luard, Evan

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Ennals, David

Lubbock, Eric

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Fernyhough, E.

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

Finch, Harold

McBride, Neil

Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

McCann, John

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

MacColl, James

Roebuck, Roy

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

MacDermot, Niall

Rose, Paul

Floud, Bernard

Macdonald, A. H.

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Foley, Maurice

McGuire, Michael

Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)

Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

McKay, Mrs. Margaret

Ryan, John

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Ford, Ben

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

Sheldon, Robert

Forrester, John

Mackie, John

Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

Fowler, Gerry

Mackintosh, John P.

Shore, Peter (Stepney)

Fraser, John (Norwood)

Maclennan, Robert

Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

Silkin, John (Deptford)

Freeson, Reginald

McNamara, J. Kevin

Silkin, S. C. (Dulwich)

Galpern, Sir Myer

MacPherson, Malcolm

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Gardner, A. J.

Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Garrett, W. E.

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Skeffington, Arthur

Carrow, Alex

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Slater, Joseph

Ginsburg, David

Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Small, William

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

Manuel, Archie

Snow, Julian

Courlay, Harry

Mapp, Charles

Spriggs, Leslie

Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

Marquand, David

Steel, David (Roxburgh)

Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

Stonehouse, John

Walden, Brian (All Saints)

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Swain, Thomas

Wallace, George

Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

Swingler, Stephen

Watkins, David (Consett)

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Symond, J. B.

Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Taverne, Dick

Weitzman, David

Winnick, David

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Wellbeloved, James

Winterbottom, R. E.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Thornton, Ernest

Whitaker, Ben

Wyatt, Woodrow

Tinn, James

White, Mrs. Eirene

Yates, Victor

Tomney, Frank

Whitlock, William

Zilliacus, K.

Tuck, Raphael

Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

Urwin, T. W.

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Varley, Eric G.

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Mr. Lawson and Mr. Grey.

Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Errington, Sir Eric

Lambton, Viscount

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Eyre, Reginald

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Astor, John

Farr, John

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Awdry, Daniel

Forrest, George

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Baker, W. H. K.

Fortescue, Tim

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

Balniel, Lord

Foster, Sir John

Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (Sufford & Stone)

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

Longden, Gilbert

Bell, Ronald

Gibson-Watt, David

Loveys, W. H.

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

MacArthur, Ian

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Biffen, John

Glyn, Sir Richard

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Biggs-Davison, John

Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

McMaster, Stanley

Birch, Pt. Hn. Nigel

Goodhart, Philip

Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

Black, Sir Cyril

Goodhew, Victor

Maddan, Martin

Blaker, Peter

Gower, Raymond

Marten, Neil

Body, Richard

Grant, Anthony

Mathew, Robert

Bossom, Sir Clive

Grant-Ferris, R.

Maude, Angus

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Gresham Cooke, R.

Mawby, Ray

Braine, Bernard

Grieve, Percy

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Brewis, John

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Gurden, Harold

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. Sir Walter

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Miscampbell, Norman

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Monro, Hector

Bryan, Paul

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Morgan, W. C. (Denbigh)

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Bullus, Sir Eric

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Burden, F. A.

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

Murton, Oscar

Campbell, Gordon

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Carlisle, Mark

Hastings, Stephen

Neave, Airey

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Hawkins, Paul

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Cary, Sir Robert

Hay, John

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Channon, H. P. G.

Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

Nott, John

Chichester-Clark, R.

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Onslow, Cranley

Clark, Henry

Heseltine, Michael

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Clegg, Walter

Higgins, Terence L.

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

Cooke, Robert

Hiley, Joseph

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Hill, J. E. B.

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Cordle, John

Hirst, Geoffrey

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Corfield, F. V.

Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Costain, A. P.

Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

Holland, Philip

Peel, John

Crawley, Aldan

Hordern, Peter

Percival, Ian

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver

Hornby, Richard

Peyton, John

Crouch, David

Howell, David (Guildford)

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Crowder, F. P.

Hunt, John

Pink, R. Bonner

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Currie, G. B. H.

Iremonger, T. L.

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Prior, J. M. L.

Dance, James

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Pym, Francis

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Denies, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

Jopling, Michael

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Doughty, Charles

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

Kershaw, Anthony

Ridsdale, Julian

Drayson, G. B.

Kimball, Marcus

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Eden, Sir John

Kirk, Peter

Roots, William

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Kitson, Timothy

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Royle, Anthony

Russell, Sir Ronald

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Webster, David

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Teeling, Sir William,

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

Temple, John M.

Whitelaw, William

Scott, Nicholas

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Sharples, Richard

Tilney, John

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Shaw, Michael (Sc'h'gh & Whitby)

Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Smith, John

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Woodnutt, Mark

Stainton, Keith

Vickers, Dame Joan

Worsley, Marcus

Stodart, Anthony

Walker, Peter (Worcester)

Wylie, N. R.

Talbot, John E.

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Younger, Hn. George

Tapsell, Peter

Wall, Patrick

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Walters, Denis

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

Weatherill, Bernard

Mr. L. W. Elliott and Mr. More

Main Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 299, Noes 230.

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Rees, Merlyn

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Reynolds, G. W.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Moyle, Roland

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Thornton, Ernest

Murray, Albert

Richard, Ivor

Tinn, James

Neal, Harold

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Tomney, Frank

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Tuck, Raphael

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

Urwin, T. W.

Norwood, Christopher

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Varley, Eric G.

Oakes, Gordon

Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

Ogden, Eric

Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

O'Malley, Brian

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Walden, Brian (All Saints)

Oram, Albert E.

Roebuck, Roy

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Orbach, Maurice

Rose, Paul

Wallace, George

Oswald, Thomas

Ross, Rt. Hn. William

Watkins, David (Consett)

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)

Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

Owen, Will (Morpeth)

Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

Weitzman, David

Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

Sheldon, Robert

Wellbeloved, James

Paget, R. T.

Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Palmer, Arthur

Shore, Peter (Stepney)

White, Mrs. Eirene

Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Whitlock, William

Pardue, John

Silkin, John (Deptford)

Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Silkin, S. C. (Dulwich)

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Skeffington, Arthur

Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Slater, Joseph

Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Small, William

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Pentland, Norman

Snow, Julian

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

Spriggs, Leslie

Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

Prentice. Rt. Hn, R. E.

Steel, David (Roxburgh)

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

Steele, Thomas (Dunhartonshire, W.)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

Winnick, David

Price, William (Rugby)

Stonehouse, John

Winterbottom, R. E.

Probert, Arthur

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Swain, Thomas

Wyatt, Woodrow

Randall, Harry

Swingler, Stephen

Yates, Victor

Rankin, John

Symonds, J. B.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Redhead, Edward

Taverne, Dick

Mr. Lawson and Mr. Grey.

NOES

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Corfield, F. V.

Grieve, Percy

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Costain, A. P.

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Astor, John

Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

Gurden, Harold

Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

Crawley, Aldan

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Awdry, Daniel

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Baker, W. H. K.

Crouch, David

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Balniel, Lord

Crowder, F. P.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Currie, G. B. H.

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Bell, Ronald

Dalkeith, Earl of

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

Dance, James

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

Berry, Hn. Anthony

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Biffen, John

Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)

Hastings, Stephen

Biggs-Davison, John

Deedes, Fit. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

Hawkins, Paul

Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Hay, John

Black, Sir Cyril

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

Blaker, Peter

Doughty, Charles

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Body, Richard

Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

Heseltine, Michael

Bossom, Sir Clive

Drayson, G. B.

Higgins, Terence L.

Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

Hiley, Joseph

Braine, Bernard

Eden, Sir John

Hill, J. E. B.

Brewis, John

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Hirst, Geoffrey

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Errington, Sir Eric

Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. Sir Walter

Eyre, Reginald

Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Farr, John

Holland, Philip

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Hordern, Peter

Bryan, Paul

Forrest, George

Hornby, Richard

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

Fortescue, Tim

Howell, David (Guildford)

Buck, Antony (Colchester)

Foster, Sir John

Hunt, John

Bullus, Sir Eric

Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Burden, F. A.

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

Iremonger, T. L.

Campbell, Gordon

Gibson-Watt, David

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Carlisle, Mark

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Cary, Sir Robert

Glyn, Sir Richard

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Channon, H. P. G.

Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

Jopling, Michael

Chichester-Clark, R.

Goodhart, Philip

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Clark, Henry

Goodhew, Victor

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Clegg, Walter

Gower, Raymond

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Cooke, Robert

Grant, Anthony

Kershaw, Anthony

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Grant-Ferris, R.

Kimball, Marcus

Cordle, John

Gresham Cooke, R.

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

Kirk, Peter

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Sharples, Richard

Kitson, Timothy

Onslow, Cranley

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Smith, John

Lambton, Viscount

Nott, John

Stainton, Keith

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Stodart, Anthony

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

Talbot, John E.

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Tapsell, Peter

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

Teeling, Sir William

Longden, Gilbert

Peel, John

Temple, John M.

Loveys, W. H.

Percival, Ian

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

MacArthur, Ian

Peyton, John

Tilney, John

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Turton, Rt. Hn. F. H.

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

Pink, R. Bonner

van Straubenzee, W. R.

McMaster, Stanley

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Vickers, Dame Joan

Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Walker, Peter (Worcester)

Maddan, Martin

Prior, J. M. L.

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Marten, Neil

Pym, Francis

Wall, Patrick

Mathew, Robert

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Walters, Denis

Maude, Angus

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Weatherill, Bernard

Mawby, Ray

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Webster, David

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Whitelaw, William

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Miscampbell, Norman

Ridsdale, Julian

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Monro, Hector

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Woodnutt, Mark

Morgan, W. G. (Denbigh)

Roots, William

Worsley, Marcus

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Wylie, N. R.

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Royle, Anthony

Younger, Hn. George

Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Russell, Sir Ronald

Murton, Oscar

St. John-Stevas, Norman

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

Mr. R. W. Elliott and Mr. More

Neave, Airey

Scott, Nicholas

Resolved,
That this House, deeply anxious to see an end to the cruel war in Vietnam and recalling Her Majesty's Government's repeated urgings that all parties concerned in the dispute should enter into negotiations to stop the fighting and achieve a settlement which would enable the peoples of North and South Vietnam to determine their own future and which would ensure
820
that the whole country became neutral without foreign troops or bases, approves Her Majesty's Government's determination to pursue their efforts to promote the unconditional negotiations already accepted by the United States but so far rejected by North Vietnam; and endorses Her Majesty's Government's announcement on 29th June of its decision to dissociate itself from the bombing of oil installations in the Hanoi and Haiphong areas.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  EMERGENCY POWERS
  Message from Her Majesty [6th July] considered;
  Message again read.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Message communicating to this House that Her Majesty has deemed it proper, by Proclamation dated 5th July 1966, to proclaim that the Proclamation of Emergency of 22nd June 1966 is revoked.—[Mr. Bowden.]
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEES
Ordered,
That, for the remainder of the present Session, a second Standing Committee shall he constituted for the consideration of Bills certified by Mr. Speaker as relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee.
Ordered,
That the said second Committee shall in respect of each Bill allocated to it, consist of not less than twenty nor more than fifty Members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, of whom not less than twenty Members shall represent Scottish constituencies and in nominating such Members the Committee of Selection shall have regard to their qualifications and the composition of the House.
Ordered,
That all Bills certified by Mr. Speaker as relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee shall be distributed between the two Committees by Mr. Speaker.—[Mr. Bowden.]

DAWLEY NEW TOWN (MINISTER'S CANCELLED VISIT)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]
10.29 p.m.
Mr. Jasper More: I wish, first, to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his courtesy in coming to the House this evening at comparatively short notice to hear what I have to say, the more so because what I have to say
822
to him will be of a very censorious kind. What I have to do this evening is to undertake the unpleasant task of saying that the Parliamentary Secretary was ostensibly—I repeat "ostensibly"—guilty of a major discourtesy yesterday to a large number of my constituents and members of the adjoining constituency by failing to keep an appointment which I understand had been fixed at his suggestion some days or weeks previously, and for which it is obvious that extensive preparation had been made.
My constituency includes about one-third of the area which has been designated for the Dawley New Town, the other two-thirds being in the adjoining constituency of The Wrekin. The planning of the new town has gone through a number of difficult stages. It is in the hands of a highly respected and competent development authority which had taken responsibility for all the arrangements for the expected visit of the Parliamentary Secretary. I understand that all these preparations having been made—indeed I was invited some 10 days previously, an invitation which unfortunately I had to refuse on account of duties here—the event was cancelled at what appears to have been something less than 24 hours' notice. I was informed today by one of the local councillors who had been asked to attend that it was not until Wednesday morning that the letter arrived at the breakfast table from the Clerk to the Council to say that unfortunately the whole event was cancelled.
This may seem a small matter for those who do not know the district. The reason for having a new town in the Dawley area has been partly the poor and very under-developed state of the whole area, and that is a state of affairs which has provided exceptional difficulties for the development authority which has undertaken this task. Even to find offices it has had to go five miles away to a country house, and in order to carry out the essential services in the centre of the area it has had to build a temporary building. It has had to use an old-fashioned building called a town hall.
With those rather rudimentary bits of equipment it takes immense trouble on these occasions to make visits as interesting and as agreeable as is possible. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that the Minister paid two visits to this area

823
last year. I was privileged to be present on one occasion and I was able to see the efforts which are made. In particular, the arrangements for yesterday included a lunch, to which the Parliamentary Secretary had been invited. The Development Corporation has an excellent caterer who, in conditions which cannot be at all easy, manages to put on a quite excellent lunch. I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that, quite apart from any other disappointment which he may have had, he missed what I am sure would have been an excellent entertainment.
The serious part of this matter is the impression which is bound to have been created locally. This visit had been widely advertised and it is fair to say that it was very necessary. In the early stages of the development of a new town a development authority obviously has one important link, and that is with the Ministry of Housing by which it is financed and to some extent guided. When a visit from a Minister is advertised, it is a local event. People feel that some interest is being taken in their problems. When it is cancelled at 24 hours' notice, clearly the effects cannot be very good.
There are a number of problems which doubtless the Minister was going down to the area to see for himself. Before I say a word about those, I must ask the question: what was the reason that justified this sudden cancellation? The Ministry of Housing is not one of the Ministries subject to sudden emergencies which require all the Ministers to be in their London headquarters or, indeed, in some other part of the country. Unquestionably, only one conclusion locally can have been drawn from this sudden cancellation, and that was that the Parliamentary Secretary was kept in London, not for any matter connected with his Ministry but with a matter connected with his party. Unquestionably, the conclusion must have been drawn that he had been ordered to remain in London in order to attend the meeting which it is known was being held that morning by the Parliamentary Labour Party.
I do not say that that conclusion is correct, but perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell the House. If it was so, I suggest that it raises a number of
824
questions. Has the Labour Party really got to the point that if a matter of policy has to be discussed all the Ministers have to be present at the party meeting? Secondly, there is the more serious question that if Ministers have contracted, as obviously Ministers have to do, appointments outside London, on important missions such as visiting what is to be, after all, the largest new town in the country, is it right that appointments should be suddenly cancelled, not for any reason of national emergency, not for any reason of crisis in the Ministry itself, but for a reason affecting the Government political party? If this is to be the rule in this country, I am bound to say that Government in this country has fallen to a very low point indeed. I hope that we may have something from the Minister on that, which is, I think, the most important aspect of what I have to say.
In view of what has happened, it is fair that I should ask the Parliamentary Secretary what he feels were the important objects of his visit. I understand from the local Press that he wished to have an opportunity to view the initiation of what I think has been called the "continuity plan". The continuity plan in Dawley is a development which has had to take place as a result of the decision recently made by the Labour Government, when it was proposed that the designated area should be enlarged by the addition of a much greater area to the north, including such places as Oakengates and Wellington.
That had rather serious repercussions on the plans of the development authority, because it meant that in the northern part of the designated area—that part which is not in my constituency—there really had to be a standstill. The Authority had to switch all its activities to the southern part of the area, which is in my constituency—that is why this matter particularly concerns me. The Authority had to revise all its original arrangements. It had to make what has appeared to be a major change of plan, and one which it is very necessary that the Minister should view on the spot—the question of the allocation of a particular area for a possible university.
Dawley new town is to be a very large place when it is completed. If we have

825
this additional area which the Government now propose, it may be an area containing 150,000 people, and clearly might justify a university. There is in the southern part of the designated area a site which suggests itself as being ideally suitable to be reserved for a university site. It is on a plateau overlooking what must originally have been a very fine scene of the Severn Gorge, and which now might be restored to its original beauty. In the continuity plan, all that has had to be scrapped and the area has had to be allocated for housing. I am far from certain that that is a wise decision. It is not in any case one that would, I should think, need to be implemented or finalised immediately. Surely it is a decision which, before it goes beyond recall, would justify a visit from the Minister. Indeed, that was specifically mentioned as a possible objective of the hon. Gentleman's visit.
Other matters which must be in the forefront of the Minister's mind in any such scheme would include the interests of those living in the area, particularly the settlements of Madeley, one of the centres in my constituency, where the proposal is to compulsorily purchase large numbers of houses and, in effect, redesign what is now the urban centre.
I have had a number of letters from present occupiers complaining of the prospects threatening them. In fairness to the Development Corporation, however, I must say that it has taken, in my view, great pains to study the interests of he present residents. It is remarkable not that I have had letters but that I have had so few. But this is a matter which would surely be in the forefront of the mind of a Minister visiting the area.
What is more important to the future is the whole question of industrial development. To what extent is this the responsibility of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and to what extent is it that of the Board of Trade? To what extent is it a joint responsibility? This subject has been brought up by the case of the important firm of Archdale which was very anxious to move into this area. I am not acquainted with all the details of the negotiations and the dealings with the various Ministries which took place, but he upshot was that the firm did not come.
826
This has created considerable concern among a number of people in the area, notably some of the councillors, who rightly think that, if the new town is to get off the ground, the basis of it must be live and powerful industries. The firm concerned seemed to many people an ideal industry to be brought in to the new town at an early stage and it is disturbing that a firm of this kind should have been prevented from moving in, apparently for the doctrinaire reason that it did not come from the right area.
I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman could say something precise about this because it carries serious implications for the future, particularly the early future, of Dawley if it must be the rule that every industry which wishes to go there must come from a defined area. What is important, too, is not only the area from which it comes but also what is the technical designation of the Dawley area itself. Is it or is it not a development area? The main question is, I repeat, to what extent it is the responsibility of the hon. Gentleman's Ministry and to what extent it is the responsibility of the Board of Trade.
Two other matters are outstanding and are of importance. The first is the report, sent to me from the Ministry in February, of a housing study undertaken under its aegis. It was to be published "in due course". I do not expect the hon. Member to be able to answer now but apparently the report had special reference to new towns. I would be grateful if he could say something about this, however.
Secondly, and more important, is the report of the consultant advising on the northern area. The hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Fowler) asked a Question about this a few days ago and the Written Answer to him appeared to be that the report is being slightly delayed for various reasons. Delay has been a bugbear of the new town from its inception. I should be grateful to be given some idea of when it is hoped the report will appear.
My primary objective is on behalf of my constituents and the Development Corporation. Although I have complained, however, I have not been asked to do so. I am saying what I would be saying if I were one of those responsible for arranging the hon. Gentleman's visit.

827
I also want to say that I cannot believe, unless the Parliamentary Secretary tells us so, that he was in any way personally responsible for what has happened. The right course to adopt over this unfortunate incident is for the Prime Minister or the Minister of Housing and Local Government to appear at the Dispatch Box at 11 o'clock tomorrow morning and publicly apologise to my constituents and all those inconvenienced.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Gerry Fowler: I am a little surprised that this matter should have been raised tonight by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. More), not least because, as he has told us, he had not intended to be present yesterday on the occasion of this important visit to his constituency, and to mine, of one of the Ministers concerned with the development of the new town. I had intended to be present. The local paper tonight records that the Minister was not there to meet the list of distinguished guests, including myself, but not including the hon. Member.
Before I was informed that the visit was cancelled, I found that I would have been unable to go. This was not because there was a Parliamentary Labour Party meeting—I set the interests of my constituents above that. It was because the Front Bench opposite, led by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), had decided to censure, not the conduct of the Government or the conduct of any Minister, but the conduct of the Chairman of Ways and Means, and to censure him in a singularly half-hearted, weak-willed manner.
I was kept here, and I have little doubt that my hon. Friend was kept here too. because the right hon. Gentleman decided that yesterday was a suitable occasion for leading the troops on the benches opposite, not only towards the sound of gunfire, but into the gun barrels of my hon. and right hon. Friends. That is why I am surprised that this complaint should come from the benches opposite. I have been on the telephone to various members of the Dawley Urban District Council and have found that there was every understanding why the visit was cancelled. The hon. Gentleman the
828
Member for Ludlow rightly draws attention to the fact that the development of the area has been affected by delay in deciding whether to extend the area of the new town northwards. I too have raised this matter in this Session.
The point I wish to make is that this delay would never have occurred if the correct decision about the designation of the new town area had been taken in the first place, before my right hon. and hon. Friends formed the Government. Delay is essentially the result of a failure of political conviction in the last Conservative administration.
10.48 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Robert Mellish): I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ludlow (Mr. More) saw fit, when he initiated this debate, to accuse me of what he called major discourtesy by failing to attend Dawley yesterday and imputed, by those words, that I had taken a deliberate action which had caused such grave offence to his constituents. He knows me well enough by now. I have been a Member of this House for 20 years and I might be almost the last person to be involved in an incident of that kind, unless there was an absolutely justifiable reason for it.
As my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Fowler) has said, the reason is that I was informed—after having made all the arrangements with the usual channels in view of what the business of the House for the coming week was going to be—that Her Majesty's Opposition had put down a major Motion of censure against the Chairman of Ways and Means and that there would be a Three-Line Whip. I was told that a vote was expected from 5 o'clock onwards. Obviously I could not get to Dawley and do the job which I had to go down to do, to see these very important people, doing a very important job, and be back in this House by 5 o'clock. I did not know of these arrangements until 24 hours before my intended visit.
Therefore, I had no alternative, as my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin rightly mentioned, but to send telegrams, and make phone calls, including a personal phone call to the chairman of the

829
Development Corporation at his hotel, expressing my profound regret. After that to be told by a member of the Opposition that initiated what I call the "glorious disaster" of yesterday—when, in fact, there was not a vote—that I am the one responsible for this major discourtesy, is just about more than even I can take.
Let us get this on record for those who read matters of this kind, and I hope that the local Press in Dawley will at least print this part of my speech. I am terribly sorry that I was not able to get there, because I was looking forward to meeting them and the local authorities there to hear about their problems, and not least to talk with those many people who are inevitably engaged in such a major project as building a new town.
I want straight away to deal with some of the points raised by the hon. Member for Ludlow and the overall picture of Dawley and nearby towns following the West Midlands Study, which was published in July, 1965. At that time the Dawley new town was to be planned for a population of some 80,000 to 90,000 people. The West Midlands Study recommended that consideration be given to taking on a further 50,000 overspill from Birmingham and the Black Country in the neighbouring towns of Wellington and Oakengates. It seemed sensible to my right hon. Friend that the planning studies of Wellington and Oakengates could not ignore the plans already in course of preparation for Dawley.
He decided, therefore, to appoint consultants to prepare reports in two stages. First, the consultants were asked to recommend for my right hon. Friend consideration of an appropriate area founded on Wellington-Oakengates for further development, in conjunction with development of the existing Dawley new town, and they were asked to report on it during this month.
Secondly, the consultants were asked to submit proposals by November, 1967, for an overall plan for development of the Dawley and Wellington-Oakengates areas. By that time the consultants already engaged by the Dawley Development Corporation had gone quite a long way in preparing a master plan for the new town. It therefore seemed sensible to appoint the same consultants for the further two
830
studies, and the terms of reference for the assignment were finally drawn in December, 1965.
We are conscious of the—if I can have the attention of the hon. Gentleman who took so much trouble in raising this debate, so that he can have a smear campaign against some of us on this side of the House, he might hear things that matter to his constituency. We are conscious of possible hindrance to the Dawley new town as a result of these studies, and therefore the terms of reference specifically required the consultants to advise the Department and the Dawley Development Corporation on what areas could be developed over the next four years without prejudice to the overall plan, so as to achieve continuity of development at a high level. The consultants did this quickly, and I am glad to say that the Development Corporation has already embarked on a continuity programme which is likely to keep it going for at least four years, during which time some 3,000 houses are programmed for completion.
Within this continuity programme is the redevelopment of the community of Madeley. The existing Madeley could hardly provide in its present state a district centre for the 26,000 people who will eventually live in and around it. In its redevelopment, which will be expensive, it will be necessary, unfortunately for some, to pull down or improve a number of obsolete properties. The proposal involves making a traffic-free centre of three linked squares, with shopping, housing, car parking and other communal facilities.
The Corporation hopes to buy much of the land in Madeley by agreement, but in dealing with cases where this, regrettably, may not be possible, it has submitted compulsory purchase orders for the area to be covered by the first phase of redevelopment. There have been objections, and if they are not withdrawn there will be an inquiry. In these circumstances, the hon. Member will understand if I make no further comment.
I now come to the difficult problem of getting industry into Dawley. Those new towns built to take overspill from conurbations must have industry. Everyone learnt when the first new towns were being built how important it

831
is to match houses and jobs, for otherwise the houses will remain empty or the inhabitants will travel far to work. No one on this side of the House, or, I imagine, anywhere in the House underestimates the difficulties of getting the right industry from the right places into the new towns and of phasing the movement of that industry to match the building of houses. But this is not to say that the Government can ignore the needs of the development districts. We must have a proper regard for priorities. But, having said that, let me assure the hon. Gentleman that it is our aim, in conjunction with the Board of Trade, to make the new towns a success.
Let it not be thought that no industry has yet been got for Dawley. There are a few firms already going there. At the moment, they amount only to a trickle, but I hope that firms in the Birmingham conurbation which have the right qualifications to go to Dawley will not just think that there is plenty of time but will go into action and try to get into Dawley as quickly as they can, because otherwise they will find that the trickle has turned into a torrent and they will not get the chance. I urge those firms which are interested to get in touch with the Development Corporation and the Board of Trade. The first generation of new towns were successful. The second generation towns will be even more successful and great places in which to live and work.
I want to say something about the slight delay there has been in producing the report on the first part of the consultants' study. This delay has been the subject of three recent Questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrekin, for whose intervention tonight I am much obliged. I know that in Dawley, Wellington and Oakengates, quite justifiably, people are anxious to know what is to happen in the future. I ask them to be patient for just a little longer, but I am able to announce tonight that the first part of the consultants' study, on which my hon. Friend has asked his Questions, will, it is understood, be available in September.
We are anxious to see that we get these reports right. To publish hastily might be to publish wrongly, which no one would want to happen. This is a diffi-
832
cult situation, with a number of areas involved in the new town development, and we want to make sure that, before we start on this enormous development, we are doing the right thing for the whole area.
I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter tonight. Having been critical of me in his earlier remarks, he ended on a rather nice note, and I do not see why I should not do the same. I am grateful to him for drawing attention to the problems of the Dawley new town. I can assure him that I have already made arrangements to visit Dawley. I very much hope to manage it some time this month. I shall go down there myself and apologise personally to those I inconvenienced. But I remind the hon. Gentleman—I do not have to remind anyone else—that my first duty is to the House of Commons. It is inevitable that Ministers, in the course of their jobs, take on appointments in advance which the business of the House then demands that they alter. That I have expressed by apologies is quite clear to all.
I must add that the hon. Gentleman is in no position to make comments about the activity in making visits of my right hon. Friend the Minister or of myself as Parliamentary Secretary. In the last year and six months we have been in power, we have visited more new towns, more county councils and more conurbations than was ever done before in the history of the Ministry. That is a fact. My right hon. Friend, for example, has not had a weekend in London. He has spent them all in doing the job for which he was appointed as Minister. I can also claim, with modesty, to have visited 40 or 50 outside authorities, trying to do the same sort of job. If our record is being challenged on this, I would compare it with that of our predecessors and say that it is pretty good.
10.58 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: It is a pity that the Parliamentary Secretary did not go to the Midlands to learn a little of their problems, which London Members do not always understand. London Members are pretty clear about their own problems and usually very full of them, and it does no harm to visit the Midlands, particularly the part represented by my hon. Friend the Member

833
for Ludlow (Mr. More), to see what is going on there.
I wish to comment on the hon. Gentleman's reason for not going to the meeting to which he had been invited. We know that there was a three-line Whip out, but we know also that it is not unknown for Ministers to be allowed to ignore three-line Whips in order to do I heir jobs. How many of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues on the Treasury Bench were, in fact, doing Ministerial jobs yesterday? The names in the Division lists which followed later that evening show that they were not present.
Mr. Mellish: There was then a two line Whip, after six o'clock. The hon. Gentleman can get up to all kinds of mischief, but let him not confuse the
834
issue about what happened yesterday in the first part of business. There was a three-line Whip for a Motion of censure on the Chairman, and after that Conservative Members were willing and able to pair. Until then, on the three-line Whip, as we know only too well, there was no pairing allowed by the Conservative Opposition, though that was not the attitude of the Labour Party.
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at one minute to Eleven o'clock.

ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Severnside (Development)
  Severnside (Development)
  Prices and Incomes Policy
  Prices and Incomes Policy
BOARD OF TRADE
  Export Promotion Officers
  Export Promotion Officers
  President of the Board of Trade (Visit to Australia)
  President of the Board of Trade (Visit to Australia)
  Amusement Machines (Import)
  Amusement Machines (Import)
  Tubewrights Limited (Closure)
  Tubewrights Limited (Closure)
  Boeing 707–320 C Aircraft (Import Duty)
  Boeing 707–320 C Aircraft (Import Duty)
  International Tourist Year
  International Tourist Year
  Hire-Purchase Act, 1965
  Hire-Purchase Act, 1965
  Factory Building (Scotland)
  Factory Building (Scotland)
  Cotton Textiles (Import Quota)
  Cotton Textiles (Import Quota)
  Coal (Exports to Scandinavia)
  Coal (Exports to Scandinavia)
  Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956
  Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956
  Insurance Companies (Controls)
  Insurance Companies (Controls)
  Butter (Import Quotas)
  Butter (Import Quotas)
  East Anglia (Development Area)
  East Anglia (Development Area)
  Industrial Development Certificates (Portsmouth Area)
  Industrial Development Certificates (Portsmouth Area)
  Boeing 707 Crash (Warning to Tokyo Civil Airport)
  Boeing 707 Crash (Warning to Tokyo Civil Airport)
  Fire Auto and Marine Insurance Co. Ltd.
  Fire Auto and Marine Insurance Co. Ltd.
  British Nuclear Power Equipment (Eastern Europe)
  British Nuclear Power Equipment (Eastern Europe)
  Imported Raw Materials (Allocation)
  Imported Raw Materials (Allocation)
  Courtaulds (Monopolies Commission)
  Courtaulds (Monopolies Commission)
WALES
  Cardiff-Merthyr Trunk Road
  Cardiff-Merthyr Trunk Road
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Students (National Insurance Contributions)
  Students (National Insurance Contributions)
  Schoolchildren (Questionnaires)
  Schoolchildren (Questionnaires)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Maintenance Orders
  Maintenance Orders
  Open Borstal, Gaynes Hall (Absconders)
  Open Borstal, Gaynes Hall (Absconders)
  Retail Trading Hours (Report)
  Retail Trading Hours (Report)
  Children's Department, Dorset (Staff)
  Children's Department, Dorset (Staff)
  Misprision of Treason (Law Reform)
  Misprision of Treason (Law Reform)
BARBADOS
  Independence
  Independence
MAURITIUS
  Parliamentary Secretary's Visit
  Parliamentary Secretary's Visit
SEYCHELLES
  Strikes
  Strikes
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Sausage Prices (Reply to Representations)
  Sausage Prices (Reply to Representations)
  Farm Rents
  Farm Rents
  SOUTH VIETNAM (UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE'S VISIT)
  SOUTH VIETNAM (UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE'S VISIT)
  LAOS (REPORT OF INTERNATIONAL CONTROL COMMISSION)
  LAOS (REPORT OF INTERNATIONAL CONTROL COMMISSION)
  CAMBODIA-VIETNAM FRONTIER
  CAMBODIA-VIETNAM FRONTIER
TRANSPORT
  Travel Concessions Bill (Retired People)
  Travel Concessions Bill (Retired People)
ROADS
  Pedestrian Crossing, Highcliffe
  Pedestrian Crossing, Highcliffe
  Pedestrian Crossing, Cirencester (Traffic Lights)
  Pedestrian Crossing, Cirencester (Traffic Lights)
  70 m.p.h. Speed Limit
  70 m.p.h. Speed Limit
  Cirencester By-Pass (Public Inquiry)
  Cirencester By-Pass (Public Inquiry)
  M4 (Accident)
  M4 (Accident)
  M11 (Draft Proposals)
  M11 (Draft Proposals)
RAILWAYS
  Shelford-Marks Tey Line (Closure)
  Shelford-Marks Tey Line (Closure)
  Surplus Property (Disposal Revenue)
  Surplus Property (Disposal Revenue)
PORTS
  Emergency Committees (Membership)
  Emergency Committees (Membership)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Royal Hospital School, Holbrook
  Royal Hospital School, Holbrook
  Her Majesty's Dockyards
  Her Majesty's Dockyards
  British Forces, Thailand
  British Forces, Thailand
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  National Union of Railwaymen (General Secretary's Salary)
  National Union of Railwaymen (General Secretary's Salary)
  Labour Party (Staff Pay Structure)
  Labour Party (Staff Pay Structure)
  NATIONAL UNION OF SEAMEN
  NATIONAL UNION OF SEAMEN
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (MINISTERIAL DISCUSSIONS)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (MINISTERIAL DISCUSSIONS)
  SEAMEN'S STRIKE (EMERGENCY REGULATIONS)
  SEAMEN'S STRIKE (EMERGENCY REGULATIONS)
  GIBRALTAR
  GIBRALTAR
  PRIME MINISTER (WASHINGTON VISIT)
  PRIME MINISTER (WASHINGTON VISIT)
  PRESIDENT DE GAULLE (STATE VISIT TO LONDON)
  PRESIDENT DE GAULLE (STATE VISIT TO LONDON)
  THAILAND (LOENG NOK THA AIRFIELD)
  THAILAND (LOENG NOK THA AIRFIELD)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Rate Rebate Schemes (Foster Children)
  Rate Rebate Schemes (Foster Children)
  Stansted Airport (Future)
  Stansted Airport (Future)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Housewives (Disseminated Sclerosis)
  Housewives (Disseminated Sclerosis)
POST OFFICE
  British Technology Stamps
  British Technology Stamps
SCOTLAND
  Cervical Cytology Service (Dunfermline and West Fife)
  Cervical Cytology Service (Dunfermline and West Fife)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Derby
The Viscount of Arbuthnott—Took the Oath.
The Lord Roborough—Took the Oath.

PERTHINVERNESS (A.9) ROAD IMPROVEMENT
3.7 p.m.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether plans have been made for the improvement of the A.9 road between Perth and Inverness; and, if so, when it is expected that the improvements will be completed.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LORD HUGHES): My Lords, plans have been made, and powers obtained, for a number of improvements, involving diversions, in Perthshire. Two of these schemes will probably be started this year; but others will have to await the completion of works needed to improve trunk roads in the industrial belt.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that, owing to the vastly increased tourist traffic in the summer and during the skiing season in winter, this road is loaded almost to capacity? May I further ask him whether the accident rate on this road is not abnormally high?
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, as I know from personal experience, travelling on this road at this time of the year, and for the next two months or so, can be a little frustrating, but fortunately it does not go beyond that. Traffic statistics show considerable leeway before the overcrowding of the road brings
1180
about a situation which would compel immediate action. It is being kept further back in the lists, because in the central belts the problem has already become much more acute than on this road. In this situation, where we cannot spend on roads all the money we should like to at any given time, we must work according to priorities.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether this road or any part of it is subject to the 50 miles an hour limit during the busy season, and. if not, whether he would contemplate applying it?
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I think that is another question; but, speaking from my recollection of that road—and perhaps this is why the question was asked—there are very few places on which one can travel for any distance at 50 miles an hour.

THE SEAMEN'S STRIKE ANDNATIONAL ASSISTANCE
3.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the amount of National Assistance paid out to seamen's families during the shipping strike.]
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, approximately £56,000 up to June 28, the latest date for which figures are available. All this was for the assistance of the families and not the men, apart from an extra £800 paid to single men in very urgent need. Some 29,000 seamen or over were on strike, and in relation to that number the amount I have mentioned is not large.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Is he aware that while many people appreciate the contribution made by National Assistance to the alleviation of hardship, they consider that in a strike against the public interest, and particularly a strike which is prolonged in defiance of recommendations of a Government inquiry,

1181
moneys paid from the public purse to the strikers' families should be recoverable in law against the union concerned? Further, could the noble Lord bring this point of view to the attention of the Royal Commission which is now looking into all aspects of trade union law?
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I dare say that there are a number who think as the noble Viscount appears to think, but the great majority of people would not wish to inflict hardship upon innocent wives and children. Certainly since 1948 it has not been the custom to try to secure redress in the way the noble Viscount suggests. I would imagine that, in all the circumstances, most noble Lords in this House and most people throughout the country would prefer to leave things as they are.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has completely misunderstood me? My object is not, of course, to inflict hardship on wives and families; my object is to ensure that if the unions, against the public interest, bring the men out on strike, the poor public should not have to support the men's families, but that their union should.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I would point out to the noble Lord, again, that the total amount of £56,000 is really quite small, and amounts to less than £2 per head for the whole of the six weeks for which the men were out. At the same time, I am sure the point which he has made so eloquently will be observed in the right quarter.
LORD WILLIS: My Lords, would not the Minister agree that the provision of National Assistance in cases of hardship is not a privilege, as is implied by this Question, but a right?

THE FIRE, AUTO AND MARINEINSURANCE COMPANY
3.13 p.m.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why, in view of the evidence made available to them more than a year ago, the Board of Trade took no steps to prevent the sequence of events which led to the compulsory winding-up of the Fire, Auto and Marine Insurance Company.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD RHODES): My Lords, the Board of Trade have been in constant touch with the company from the commencement of its business. Neither the information obtained from enquiries made of the company by the Board nor suggestions made to them from other sources would have justified the Board in making earlier use of their powers under the Insurance Companies Act 1958. The reasons for the failure of the company will be fully investigated by the Official Receiver if the Court makes a winding-up order against the company.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that full reply, may I ask whether he could explain why, since his Department has been in constant touch with this company, an official of the Board of Trade made a Press announcement as late as Friday, June 24, saying "As things are at the moment, there does not appear to be any immediate danger of insolvency", and a week later the company was "bust"?
LORD RHODES: That is how it happens. That is quite true. When he made the statement he was not misleading anybody, but other people were.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, does this not imply that the President of the Board of Trade nowadays does not know what is going on in his Department?
LORD RHODES: My Lords, it shows just exactly the opposite, because the 1958 Act was legislation which was consolidating three previous Acts of Parliament. But it has its limitations now, just as it had in the days when the noble Lord was at the Board of Trade, and we shall take steps to remedy this as soon as possible.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, is this not exactly the kind of case for which we passed the provision in the recent Act, to put in an inspector at an early stage? That does not require the provisions of the Insurance Companies Act or anything else. If that had been done, might not far less loss have been incurred?
LORD RHODES: My Lords, the question is very much to the point. But may I point out that Section 13 of the 1958 Act sets out stringent conditions for the companies which are non-life. The inspection rights arc under Section 14 of that Act. I must say that those provisions need improving, and I am hoping that it will not be long before we have an opportunity to do that.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, when the noble Lord is talking about steps to improve the situation, is he referring only to the steps that he has just now mentioned, or has he something else in mind as well?
LORD RHODES: Yes, my Lords, many. We want improved powers for the Board of Trade to require insurance companies to produce documents; the required solvency margins to apply from the date of commencing business, and not merely after two years; an increase in the required minimum paid-up capital and some power to ensure that it is suitably invested; and, possibly, many more which it would bore the House to read out.

EMERGENCY POWERS ACT 1920
Order of the Day read for the consideration of The Queen's Message of yesterday.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, I beg to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for her Most Gracious Message informing the House that by Proclamation Her Majesty has revoked the Proclamation of the 22nd June, 1966, proclaiming a State of Emergency.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Message communicating to this House Her Majesty's Declaration that the State of Emergency has now ceased to exist.—(The Earl of Long ford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to housing in Scotland, with the exception of certain provisions relating to financial matters. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Hughes.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

MATRIMONIAL HOMES BILL [H.L.]
3.19 p.m.
Order of the Day read for receiving the Report of Amendments.
BARONESS SUMMER SKILL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received. I understand that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, will open the debate with an Amendment.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 2:
Effect of statutory rights of occupation as charge on dwelling house
2.—(1) Where, at any time during the subsistence of a marriage, one spouse is entitled

1185
to occupy a dwelling house by virtue of an estate or interest, then the other spouse's rights of occupation under section I above shall be a charge on that estate or interest, having the like priority as if it were an equitable interest created at whichever is the latest of the following dates, that is to say,—

(a) the date when the spouse so entitled acquires the estate or interest;

(b) the date of the marriage; and

(c) the commencement of this Act.

LORD WILBERFORCEmoved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "an estate or interest" and to insert instead:
"then, if the other spouse obtains an order under section 1 of this Act, any right of occupation conferred by that order shall be a charge on that estate or interest having priority as if it were an equitable interest created at the date of such order:
Provided that a spouse who intends to apply for any such order may register a priority notice and if an order under section 1 is in fact made and registered within six months from the date of registration of the priority notice, the charge hereby created shall have priority as from the date of registration of such notice."
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne, and my noble and learned friend Lord Hodson, have asked me to introduce this Amendment which I will shortly explain. I should like first to offer an apology for raising it at this stage, after we had a fairly full discussion on a similar point at the Committee stage. My reason for doing so is twofold. In the first place, at the Committee stage the matter came before your Lordships' Committee rather late in the day, when very few of your Lordships were able to be present; and as this matter touches upon a subject which is of very wide importance in relation to matrimonial property, since it is going to affect the title to every house owned by married people throughout the country, we felt that it ought to receive some consideration by your Lordships in a fuller House.
The second reason for raising this Amendment again is that during the Committee stage the noble Lady, Baroness Summer skill, pointed out a number of technical defects in our Amendment as then drafted, upon which she invited your Lordships' Committee to reject the Amendment. We have taken the opportunity of, we hope, dealing with those technical defects and of making one
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alteration in substance by way of extending the period, so that the matter now comes before your Lordships in a somewhat different form from that in which it was previously considered.
It would be possible without much difficulty to become a bore on the subject of registration of land, but I must take just a little time to explain the purpose of this Amendment, which otherwise may not be very easily understood. The importance of it is that the Bill, as drafted, proposes a very far-reaching change in the law relating to matrimonial property—a change greater in extent than that needed for the immediate purposes for which the noble Lady has introduced the Bill. In the draft of the Bill before your Lordships at the present stage, the Report stage draft, your Lordships have not the Explanatory Memorandum which originally accompanied the Bill, but it told your Lordships this: that the purpose of the Bill was, first, to deal with the situation created in relation to deserted wives by a recent decision of this House in its Judicial capacity; and, secondly, to give substantial effect, though differing in detail, to the recommendations relating to the matrimonial home made by the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce—and I ask your Lordships particularly to note that last point, because it is one to which I shall return.
If your Lordships will look at the Bill as amended in Committee, you will see, first of all, in Clause 1, that the deserted spouse is given a very substantial and very new measure of protection against the other spouse, the owner of the matrimonial home, who deserts her. All this is new; it is radical, and it is important. Your Lordships can see the effect of it by glancing at subsection (3), which enables the deserted spouse to apply to a court for an order giving him, or her, a right of occupation of the house notwithstanding that he or she has no right of property in that house at all. And your Lordships will see that that is followed through, in a great deal of detail, in cases where the house is let, where it is a protected tenancy, and so on. With all of that, we are fully content. It is a very necessary and salutary reform, and it gives what we hope will be a very useful measure of protection to wives—and husbands, should the case arise—who are

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deserted by their spouses and who otherwise might fear ejectment from the matrimonial house.
But then we come to Clause 2 of the Bill, which enters into a different field. That enters into the field of property, and there it at once causes us to think that there may be other interests involved. Indeed, there are; and here we must be careful to strike a proper balance. We have to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the rights of the deserted spouse who has to be protected against the possibility that the house may be sold over her head or mortgaged over her head, and, on the other hand, the property rights of all the other spouses in this country, of whom there are hundreds of thousands, who live happily in matrimonial homes and are not threatened by break-up of marriage or differences such as might lead to the application of the rest of the Bill. The point here is that it is necessary to strike a balance between the need to protect the deserted spouse, on the one hand, and the need not to interfere unduly with the property rights of the very much greater number of happily married spouses who own matrimonial homes.
It is necessary to bear in mind that all spouses—every single spouse in the country, whether rich or poor—have a great and vital interest in keeping transactions in property cheap and expeditious; in keeping lawyers out of them, if they can; in avoiding complications over the title, which will arise if, in every case, one gets the Land Registry brought in; and in having the title to their house in such a condition that money can easily be raised upon it from building societies or banks for the mutual interest of both spouses. It is because we believe that this clause as at present drafted does very substantially interefere with the rights of the normal spouse in that respect that we have ventured to put down this Amendment.
May I just say at this point, in order to make it clear, that this Bill is not the occasion—and I do not think it is now treated as the occasion—for introducing a substantial reform as to the rights of spouses in matrimonial property? It does not profess to introduce community of property, or anything of
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that kind. That, of course, was canvassed by the Royal Commission. They came out against community; and, as I understand the noble Lady's objectives, she does not intend to use this Bill as a vehicle for bringing about indirectly some regime of community of property. May I also say that, if there were a regime of community of property, one spouse would then have the right to manage the property. That is always so under systems of community. But under this Bill, as Clause 2 is drafted, a spouse who has not a legal interest in the property is given a right of veto over dealings in the property by the other spouse, which in a way ties the position up more tightly than it would be even under a system of community.
Of course, the Royal Commission dealt with this problem of the matrimonial home, and they made a recommendation about it. What they suggested was that a charge should be conferred on the matrimonial home for the benefit of the deserted wife which should take effect on the making of an order such as we now find referred to in Clause 1. That was their recommendation: that the charge should take effect on the making of a court order. This Bill, as your Lordships will find if you look at Clause 2, subsection (1), makes the charge take effect on the latest of three dates, one of which is the date of the marriage. So this is not a case of a charge arising when a court order is obtained, which was the recommendation of the Royal Commission; this is a case of a charge which may arise right from the date of the marriage.
Our Amendment is a half-way house between the two; it is a compromise. What it does is to contemplate' the making of an order, and says that, if an order is made under Clause 1, a charge shall take effect on that date; but, in order to deal with the possibility, which is a real one, that before an order can be obtained a charge or a disposition of the house may have been made by the deserting husband which would prejudice the deserted wife, we make the provision, to be found in the proviso, enabling the deserted spouse to go to the Land Registry six months before and put on what we call a priority notice. So that, in effect, gives a spouse who is deserted, or who is about to be deserted,

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a six-months' period of grace. She can go to the Land Registry, put her charge on straight away, the moment she thinks that there is going to be a threat to her home. And then, providing she does, in fact, go to the court within six months and get an order under Clause 1 of the Bill, the charge takes effect and is given priority right back to the date when the priority notice was put on. We suggest that to your Lordships as a sensible compromise which does all that is necessary to protect the deserted wife in a practical sense, yet does not involve a very far-reaching, general interference and clogging of the property rights of the hundreds and thousands of other people who will never be in the position of being a deserted spouse.
May I say a word or two in explanation of some of the changes we have made, since the noble Lady was good enough to comment on our previous Amendment? We have altered the drafting of the first paragraph in such a way that the charge takes effect as from the date of the order; that is a change from the previous drafting. In the proviso we have altered the period, which in the previous draft was one month, to six months. This was done to meet the point made by several noble Lords in that discussion; and we hope that that is for practical purposes enough. We have anticipated the second Amendment and have drafted a separate paragraph which merely deals with the case of registered land which the noble Lady said we had not dealt with properly in our previous Amendment.
So there is our Amendment. I hope that with that short exposition I have made it intelligible. The Amendment fits in with the purpose of the Bill as announced to the House when it was introduced. It gives effect to the intentions of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce; it is mechanically possible, and, we believe, fits in with the structure of lande registration. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 15, leave out from ("interest") to end of line 23 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Wilberforce.)
3.32 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, with the permission of my noble friend Lady Summerskill, as this is partly a matter
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of law, may I express first the Government's attitude towards this Amendment? On the Motion recently moved in this House by the noble Lord, Lord Alport, I did not think it right, as Lord Chancellor, to take part in the interesting discussion which then took place, nor to vote upon his Motion. Had a Select Committee been established or constituted, it may be that one thing they might usefully have considered would have been whether it is really necessary for your Lordships always to consider every Bill four times.
To one who is perhaps not so used to your Lordships' House for so many years as many of you, it would seem at first sight that here, at least (I suppose I ought not to say what I thought might or might not happen in another place) as we can read a Bill and can see what Amendments we think ought to be made to it, one would produce one's Amendments and there could be a full debate on the whole thing and a decision reached. What in fact we do is to have a Second Reading when anybody who has some objection to the Bill can say what it is and exactly what Amendment he would like to see made; and, after a discussion, that is replied to by whoever introduced the Bill. Then, in the Committee stage, which in this House is a Committee of the Whole House, the same point is gone into all over again and a decision reached. Then on the Report stage, exactly the same discussion can take place all over again for the third time; and on the Third Reading we do it all over again for the fourth time.
Here is a case in which we had an interesting discussion on the Committee stage of the Bill, and the Committee were, I think, much assisted by the speech made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, who, after all, had been for years a Judge of the Divorce Division and subsequently hearing appeals as Master of the Rolls in the Court of Appeal. Having then reached a decision (and at least this can be said about the decision: it was in no way at all—and rightly—a decision on Party lines, because most of those who supported my noble friend Lady Summerskill were, I think, Members sitting on the Opposition Benches) and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, being unable through other duties to be here, we are now considering the matter all over again.

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My Lords, the field we are in is that of human relations and, in particular, our divorce law. I suppose most of us to-day in the field of divorce law are middle-of-the-road men. On the one hand, we think that the ideal to aim at is the union for life between one man and one woman; but we realise of what human nature consists; that if there is no divorce there will inevitably be a large number of unions and a large number of illegitimate children; and that divorce must exist for the purpose for which it really does exist, and that is the relief of human suffering. On the other hand, we feel ourselves unable to take the view that anybody who wants to get a divorce ought to be able to go to a post office and get it, because we think that society has a very real interest, first of all in the stability of married life and in the promotion of good marriage, and, secondly, to see that the injured party, and particularly the children of the marriage, are properly provided for.
I believe I am right in thinking that the State pays out from the taxpayer something like £20 million a year to support former wives and children; because we have to face the fact that in truth not a great many men can afford to support two families. When we are considering the financial position between married people we have also to acknowledge that in most civilized countries today the law recognises the fact that if there are children somebody has to cook the food, look after the children and keep the house. If the wife does not do it, either because she is otherwise occupied or will not, then the man must do it—the children cannot be left abandoned—or they must pay somebody else to do it. That is why the law in most civilised countries recognises that it is only because women as a whole are prepared to devote themselves to cooking the food and looking after the children that the man is free—free from what otherwise he might have to do himself—to go and earn an income for both of them. Therefore those countries generally recognise that what either spouse makes during their marriage is partnership property.
With a few exceptions, it is only in England that after 15 or 20 years of married life, if, unfortunately, the marriage breaks up or the husband falls in love
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with a younger woman, it is found that everything they have accumulated during their partnership apart from the woman's clothes, belongs in law to the husband. That is roughly the position. It may be, and usually is, the case that where a man goes off with a younger woman, leaving his wife and children, the matrimonial home is in his name and is his sole legal property—although in real life, particularly if both are working, how they divide up the hire-purchase instalments and the mortgage instalments between them is entirely a matter for arrangement.
Any husband who went to a judge and said, "I would like you to turn my wife and children out of the matrimonial home so that I can live there with my mistress", would have very short shrift. Because the real sufferers in a divorce—and I think all those of us who have been concerned in a good many divorce cases would agree with this—however inevitable the divorce may be, are usually the children. To be able to go on living in the matrimonial home is at all events something, and no judge in such circumstances would make an order turning the wife out of the matrimonial home. But under English law the husband can do this without having to go to a judge at all. All he has to do is to sell the matrimonial home over his wife's head, and when the purchaser knocks at the door and tells the wife and children to get out, she has no answer to that at all.
Because this was the law, and because it was causing so much injustice, a good many years ago now the Court of Appeal—I must not say "invented"—held that a wife, in such circumstances, had an equity in the matrimonial home, which enabled them not to make an order in favour of the husband who had so sold it. It created difficulties because, of course, this equity had to be weighed against the position of a bona fide purchaser who might have bought the house for his own occupation and been relying on being able to occupy it. Therefore the sort of difficult question which tended to arise was whether a prospective purchaser, when he went to look over a house and found a woman there and saw no man's clothes about, ought to ask her how she was getting on with her husband

1193
or whether her husband had deserted her. Ultimately, in December, while expressing a good deal of reluctance, your Lordships' House held that there was no legal basis for this decision of the Court of Appeal that a deserted wife had an equity in the matrimonial home. So at the present moment, as indeed it will be through August and September, the legal position is that any husband can turn his wife and his children out of the matrimonial home simply by selling it over their heads.
Meanwhile the Royal Commission had considered this and they had proposed a remedy not unlike that of the Amendment—namely, that a wife should be able to go to the court and get an order which would prevent her husband from turning her out. But when, in consequence of the decision of your Lordships' House in December, I had to consider with the Law Commission whether this would be a sufficient remedy, I am bound to say that I came to the conclusion, as they did, that it would not be. In fairness to the Royal Commission I think I must point out that they had first of all to deal with the difficult question: "Should we retain the whole basis of our divorce law", which is that of the matrimonial offence, "or should we change over the whole basis to that of the breakdown of marriage?"
Then they had to consider, separately, each ground of divorce, both in England and in Scotland—nullity of marriage; judicial separation; restitution of conjugal rights, England; jactitation of marriage, England; marriage guidance and conciliation; damages and costs; maintenance in England; aliment in Scotland; the enforcement of maintenance orders made in the High Court; voluntary agreements for separation or maintenance, in England and Scotland separately; the court which should have jurisdiction over matrimonial causes, England and Scotland; the basis of matrimonial jurisdiction and the recognition of the jurisdiction of other countries; matrimonial proceedings in magistrates' courts; the law prohibiting marriage with certain relations by kindred or affinity; the legitimacy of children; the effect of divorce on a will; the reappearance of a spouse after a decree of presumption of death; dis-
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abilities consequent upon divorce in Scotland—and so forth. It is not surprising if, in that very wide ambit, the matrimonial home formed a rather small item in what they were considering; and if they had not time or opportunity to consider, in as much detail as we have since, the practical working of the relief proposed.
What is proposed by this Bill is extremely simple. It is that a wife should at all times have a charge upon the matrimonial home which would be good against a mere gift; that is to say, against her husband simply giving the house to his mistress; but that as against a bona fide purchaser she would have to register her charge on the Land Charges Register. This is very simple. It is fair as against any prospective purchaser who always looks, or gets his solicitor to look, at the Register to see whether or not there are any charges on it. The process of registration is extremely simple. All she has to do is to fill up a form, and if she is doing it in person, accompany it by a statutory declaration, and the total charges are one shilling. That is very simple.
It is said by the movers of this Amendment that this will complicate terrifically any transfers of land at all. If the husband wants to sell the house, he will, in effect, have to get the wife's consent, and all sorts of complications will have to be gone through. This is not so at all. If they are living amicably together, they may be going to sell one home and buy another, and all the wife has to do is to join in the transfer. If she has registered the charge, all she has to do is to send in a notice of cancellation accompanied by another fee of one shilling. The defect of this Amendment is that it gives the wife no charge—apart from the priority notice which I will deal with in a moment—until she has taken proceedings against her husband and has obtained an order against him; and the main point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, when we considered this matter in Committee was that in nearly every case in real life it will be found that she will be too late. This is because if a woman sees that her marriage is in danger of breaking up, which she does not want it to do, the last thing in the world she wishes to do, or ought to be encouraged to do, is to start legal proceedings against her husband because

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that is more likely to be inimical to the continuance of marriage than anything else. Therefore she does not.
It is invariably the man who goes to his solicitor first. If a man is thinking of leaving his wife and going off with another woman, he will be told under the proposed Amendment, "All you have to do is sell the house straight away over your wife's head, then there is nothing that she can do." That is why the Bill departs to this extent from the recommendations of the Royal Commission. It was strongly felt that what was recommended by the Royal Commission, that a wife should have the right if she once went to the court and got an order, did not really give the wife sufficient protection; but the simple scheme which the Bill puts forward enables her to have a charge from the start and to register it when she thinks it right.
It is suggested in the Amendment that there would be no charge at all until she had been to the court and got an order, though it provides for the possibility of the wife's registering a priority notice in anticipation of her obtaining an order; the effect of the priority notice being that if she does in fact later obtain an order from the court, within six months, her charge will take priority from the date of the registration of the notice. This is a little odd, because this is not the present purpose of a priority notice at all. The priority notice is used at the moment where you have a charge. And the object of the notice is to enable you to obtain priority for your charge from the date that the charge was presented, as against another charge. Under the Amendment there would be nothing to prevent a wife from registering a priority notice, and then at the end of six months registering another priority notice, and doing so every six months. This would indeed clog the dealings in property, and do so very much more than would be the case under the Bill as it stands. This is due to the fact that the Amendment proposes to use priority notices for a wholly different purpose from that for which they were originally devised.
I submit that the Bill proceeds on the much simpler basis of giving the wife, by virtue of her position, an interest in the property which by registration is
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valid even as against purchasers for value. If the husband will not sell the property, if the parties are wholly at loggerheads and the husband refuses to join in a conveyance, she can in any case go to court, but in the ordinary way registration of a charge should cause no difficulty or embarrassment. For these reasons, I submit to your Lordships that the protection purported to be given by this Amendment would be not nearly sufficient protection.
There is also a technical point on the Amendment in that a wife who was contemplating applying to court for an order against her husband and wanted to get a priority notice or caution discharged, would have to have the husband's certificate in the case of registered land, and it would be very unlikely that the certificate would be in the possession of the husband. But this is merely a technical point. On these grounds I submit to your Lordships, on behalf of the Government, that this is an Amendment which would deprive the wife of almost the whole of the protection which she would otherwise have been afforded by this Bill.
3.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I have listened with interest to what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has said. I must say that I cannot agree with his conclusion, for reasons which I shall indicate. The noble and learned Lord began by making some observations with regard to the procedure of this House. I imagine that the inference from that was that my noble friends and I should not have tabled this Amendment, as the point raised by it is usually discussed in Committee. Of course, this is a Committee point and not one that would be raised in great detail on Second Reading. The Second Reading of a Bill serves a useful purpose but a quite different one from the detailed consideration in Committee and on Report.
When we came to consider this point in Committee it was at a late hour, but we had a useful discussion which threw up certain points. Then, it is true, we had a Division, but the numbers in the House were so small at that time that if two fewer had voted the matter would inevitably have come before the House on another occasion. That is another reason why I think we are fully justified in bringing this point again to the notice

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of the House. It is a narrow point, but an important one. I have always believed that just as the Committee stage can, so also the Report stage of a Bill can serve a very useful purpose if we are going to get our legislation in proper order.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor spent some time in a general disquisition about the law of divorce and about community of goods and all that. I am not going to follow him into that discussion, because this point is much narrower than that. None of us in this House, I think, disputes or wishes to challenge the proposals in Clause 1 of the Bill. I certainly strongly support that the spouse should have the rights of occupation which are there given. But in Clause 2 we are dealing with the rights of a spouse in relation to the rights of third parties, and that is very important. I, for one, would want to see the wife get adequate protection. As my noble friend has said, it is a question of striking a balance between giving the wife adequate protection and avoiding impeding the easy transfer of property. It is a difficulty, I know, to decide where that line should be drawn. But if I did not think that the proposal we are putting before your Lordships gave adequate support and protection, I certainly should not commend it to your Lordships.
I know that I differ in opinion from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, who thinks that the wife can get adequate protection only if she is in a position immediately after the marriage to go and register this charge, so that it will have priority over any subsequent disposition of or charge upon the property. I cannot think that that is necessary. The number of deserted wives who find that their former husbands have treated them so atrociously as to dispose of the matrimonial home to their mistresses or to someone else is surely very small. These cases when they occur are very distressing and sad, and I certainly think that that spouse deserves full protection. But is it necessary to go from that and argue, as was argued in the course of our earlier debates, that it ought to be a regular course for this charge to be registered immediately upon marriage? That does not look very hopeful as to what is going to happen about the marriage in future. I myself do not welcome the idea that after going to the
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church, and perhaps before going to the reception, a couple should go to the Land Registry Office and register a charge, and I cannot believe that it is necessary.
The Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce considered this, and I should like to draw your Lordships' attention again, if I may, to the sentences they used about it. They said (paragraph 665):
"To give the deserted wife complete protection it would he necessary to give her a right, as against all the world, to stay on in the matrimonial home until ordered to leave by the court. The decisive objection to that course, in our opinion, is the unsatisfactory and insecure position in which it would place third parties. It would be necessary, for instance, for a would-be purchaser of a house, or for an intending mortagee, to make full inquiries into the matrimonial circumstances of the owner before the transaction could be safely completed. On the other hand, to give the wife a right merely against her husband personally would be equally unsatisfactory in as much as she would then have no protection against her husband's disposing of her husband's interest in the home to third parties."
The Commission continue:
"We have adopted a middle course."
The middle course they recommended was that the wife should get protection on desertion by going to the courts. I do not think that that goes quite far enough because, as the noble Baroness has pointed out, it might be too late. And we recognise that. Therefore, our Amendment goes a little further than the Royal Commission, but the reasons which the Royal Commission put forward cannot be lightly brushed aside by suggesting that there are a great many other matters to consider.
We are now told, I believe for the first time, that the Law Commission have been consulted about this and that they agree with the views put forward by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. If the Law Commission have been consulted about this and have reason for dissenting from the considered opinions of the Royal Commission, it would certainly have been useful for this House to have been informed of the reasons of the Law Commission for that dissent, and to have an opportunity of considering them. But we have not been told, except through the mouth of the noble and learned Lord, and of course I agree that we should give weight both to the noble and learned Lord's views and to those of the Law Commission. But is it really necessary, for the protection of

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the few cases where deserted wives may run the risk of having the matrimonial home sold over their heads, to give this right to every spouse from the day of marriage? And if that is not necessary, where does one draw the line? I suggest that this Amendment gets its about right.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor had some fun with the expression "priority notice" and said that it was not what a priority notice usually was. Does that matter? How this Amendment is intended to work is, I think, quite clear. Without going to the court for an order—and that is what the Royal Commission suggested—the spouse can at any time go and register a priority notice. That means that if she has reason to suppose that her position is getting in danger, there is no need for her to go to the court to get protection at the beginning.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor says that women are reluctant to go to the courts. I am sure they are; and it would be a bad thing from the point of view of the marriage. But here this registering of a priority notice can be done without going to the court. And then, if within six months of that registration she gets an order of the court, the charge is effective not only for the six months' period preceeding that order, but also from then on. So she can get protection without going to the court. But the protection will lapse, if she wishes it to lapse, by her not going to the court at the end of six months. If she feels that the situation is not so acute that going to the court is necessary, she can then serve another priority notice and have it registered. I cannot see any real objection to that.
So it seems to me—and I do not speak with anything like the authority on these matters that my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce does—that by this machinery one can provide adequate protection for the wife without going to the full extent that the noble Lady wishes in this Bill; that is, to make such a charge applicable from the date of marriage in all cases, a suggestion which was emphatically rejected by the Royal Commission in this Report.
It is for those reasons that I support this Amendment. It is, I think, a narrow but an important point. I hope the noble
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Lady when she follows me, as I expect she will, will not suggest for one moment that my noble and learned friend and I and those who think with us on this matter are not just as keen as she is to see that the case of the deserted wife is fully covered.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I must agree with my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor—
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Would the noble Lady forgive me? I should like to fulfil a promise. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, asked me to say how sorry he was that he could not be here this afternoon owing to the fact that he was sitting judicially. There were great chances at one time, of course, that the rest of us could not be here this afternoon, but, fortunately for us, it did not work out that way. I want to add one point that I had forgotten. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that the Committee were assisted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, on the Committee stage. Indeed, we were. But I think it is the case that some of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, said misconceived the position; and that is another reason why we should bring it before the House again. The noble and learned Lord in the Committee stage said:
"This proposed Amendment will destroy that protection altogether, because she will not get protection unless she has already gone to the court and got an order before the husband sells to his mistress, or whoever it may be."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 275 (No. 27), col. 646, 28/6/66.]
That misconceives this Amendment, because under this Amendment she can get protection by registering the priority notice.
4.4 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I find it difficult to understand why the noble and learned Viscount and his friends have put down this Amendment to-day, because the principle involved in it is exactly the same as the one which we debated at length last week; and although I agree with the noble and learned Viscount that there may not then have been many Members in the House, nevertheless, the Amendment was defeated by a substantial majority. Incidentally, as my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor had said, most

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of the Members who voted on that occasion were from the Opposition Benches.
What is the object of this Amendment? It is to ensure that a deserted wife's rights of occupation of the home should become a charge on the husband's interest, not from the date of the marriage, nor from the date when the husband acquires his interest, as provided by Clause 2(1), but only from the date when the wife obtains an order conferring right of occupation. In other words, it means that the Amendment provides that the marriage must be in danger of breaking up before a wife can register a charge following an order of the court. In view of the fact that before the marriage is in: danger of breaking up there must have been many trivial quarrels and many major quarrels, surely the husband, unless he is mentally defective, must realise that perhaps the marriage will end and, therefore, he must take action.
Our argument, therefore, is that, although it may look well on paper that the woman has this right when the marriage is breaking up, common sense tells us that a husband will see that the marriage is going to break up and will make arrangements to dispose of the property. I am advised that he could hand it to his mistress, or hand it to a relative; indeed, he could just write a letter overnight saying: "This is yours." Therefore, what protection has a woman if you tell her, as the Amendment does, to wait until the marriage is nearing the end and then she can take action?
Those are the fundamental objections to this Amendment: the need to obtain an order of the court before it becomes possible to register a charge. Again, I want to point out that you are putting the woman in the position of having to decide whether the deterioration of her marriage has reached the point where one day she has to say to herself: "Was that row last night the final one? Should I go to the court this morning?" As I said on the last occasion, the lawyers agree that women hate going to the courts, and they go only in the last resort. We are asking the House to protect the woman before the trouble occurs. It will be undesirable that she should go to the court (I want to emphasise this point) because, after all, we all finally want a reunion.
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I listened to my noble friends on this side of the House cheer when my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack said that it was not in the interests of the marriage to go to the court, because her husband would not like that kind of publicity. I want noble Lords to realise what will happen when she decides to go to court. She will tell her relations, of course, and the publicity will be of such character that the husband will not be anxious for a reconciliation.
To meet the objection that a wife might not apply to the court until it was too late to stop her husband from disposing of the property, this Amendment provides for the possibility of the wife's registering a priority notice in anticipation of her obtaining a court order, the effect of the priority notice being that if she does obtain an order from the court within the next six months her charge will take priority from the date of registration of the notice. I want to prove to the House that this proposal goes too far or not far enough. If, as is only too likely, a wife does not think of registering her priority notice until the state of the marriage is such that she has the possibility of an application to the court in mind, then, as I have said, it may well be too late for the notice to be effective against anyone who acquires the property from the husband.
I want to say to the House that the break-up of a marriage cannot be related to any specified time. Last week, noble Lords came to the House with an Amendment which, instead of six months, as in this Amendment, suggested one month, and I said that it was grossly unfair to ask a woman to have to decide in one month whether she and her children should leave the home or apply to the court. This time the period of one month has been changed to six months. Again I say that we cannot consider any calendar period when we are considering how long it takes for a marriage to break up. For the sake of the family, the decision of the wife must not be hurried. It is not in the interests of the children to make six months the period in which a mother must decide to separate from her husband. There can be quarrels and recriminations, ending in temporary forgiveness.
I would remind noble Lords—because always we are honoured by a number of

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Judges on these occasions—that the Judiciary itself has already shown itself aware of the unpredictability of human nature by refusing, other than in exceptional circumstances, to grant a divorce to a couple whose marriage has not lasted three years. The Judiciary are so much aware of all the imponderables in marriage that they have said that it would be wrong to grant a divorce before the couple have had time to adjust themselves to marriage; before they have had time to get over the initial quarrels and misunderstandings.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Would the noble Lady forgive me—
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: In a moment. I should like to finish my sentence. The Judiciary themselves have decided that three years is an adequate time in which the couple can try to reconcile their problems.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Would the noble Lady forgive me? She should be aware that it was not a judicial decision that decided that point. It was decided by Act of Parliament, by this House and another place, with the Royal Assent. Therefore, observations about judicial decisions seem to be outside the point, and wrong.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I am surprised at the noble and learned Viscount's interjection. Here we have a Bill going through Parliament which concerns the Judiciary, and what have we had? On the Second Reading last week, and again this week, a number of learned Judges have come here to make their contributions. Does the noble and learned Viscount tell me that when this other Act of Parliament went through, which had to be interpreted by the Judiciary, they were quiet and said nothing? I am not a lawyer, as I have told the noble and learned Viscount, but he must realise that when he gets up and makes these sweeping statements there are some of us with sufficient common sense to realise that there is no basis for them.
I should like to relate this Amendment of six months to the realities of life. A marriage has not been going well, and the wife registers a priority notice. It is July now. Very well. Let us say that she registers the notice at the beginning
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of July. This is a public warning to her husband, and it is not calculated to improve relations. The husband may therefore plan to outwit her, in order that she may not get the home—and this, I can assure your Lordships, presents no difficulties when the man is dealing with a mother with children. She gets her priority notice at the beginning of July. He suggests that the family should go to the seaside in August, and she is lulled into a false sense of security. In September she is busy with the children at school, and there is still the glow of the August holiday with her. Soon, Christmas is in the air, and the six months have elapsed. She must then, in that atmosphere, obtain an order of the court if she is to retain her home.
How many women would be prepared to upset the family at such a time, even though the wife might suspect that she was living in a fool's paradise? A woman in that situation hopes always that she may be able to restore harmony in the home. Yet the day after the six months has elapsed, let us say at Christmas, at the end of the year, and no court order has been sought by the wife, the husband is at liberty to sell the house over her head. He has only to bide his time. I would say that this Amendment fails to give the gentlest and most forgiving wives protection: it completely fails, just as the one-month period did last week. I then persuaded your Lordships to reject it. But I suspect that the learned Judges go away with their brilliant brains and never consult a simple mother and housewife. I suspect that if they did, if they invited some devoted mother with three or four children to come and talk it over with them, they would not have put this arid Amendment on the Order Paper. For it does not touch the lives of people and, if anything, seeks to destroy the home and gives the wife or the husband no opportunity for a real reconciliation. But noble Lords who want the Amendment insist that she should go to the court; they insist that she should tell the whole of her family and telephone her mother; and by the time that has been done there is no chance of a reconciliation.
I should like to put another point to the noble and learned Viscount. If, on the other hand, a more astute wife, less gentle, less forgiving, in order to protect

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herself registers a priority notice without any real intention of applying to the court, and re-registers a fresh notice every six months, it would put a clog on dealings with the property of just such a kind as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, said last week that he feared would be the result of the Bill. Have noble Lords realised that, from the administrative point of view, there is a major defect in the Amendment? I felt it was effrontery last week when I pointed out three defects, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, had to come and say that they had put them right for me this time. Now I have to come and tell them that, administratively, there is such a defect that they are all defeating their object. By introducing this Amendment in this way they are completely tying a man's hands.
I hope they will not say to the House, "We will go away and bring it up again on Third Reading." If that is to be their attitude, we really must protest, for the Amendment, I would point out, makes no provision to enable the husband to obtain the cancellation of a priority notice before it expires. This is due to the fact that the Amendment proposes to use priority notices for a wholly different purpose from that for which they were originally devised, namely, to secure priority for a charge from the date of its creation, notwithstanding that it is not registered until later. The Amendment would use the system of priority notices to give priority to a charge before it is even brought into existence. I have, I hope, shown that the Amendment is inhuman; that it gives no protection to a wife; that it is technically defective and, indeed, gives no protection to the husband.
Now I would speak about the Bill. The Bill proceeds on the much simpler basis of giving the wife, by virtue of her position, an interest in the property which, by registration of the land charge, is valid even as against purchasers for value. It is unrealistic to suggest that the need to register the charge will impose heavier burdens on the wife than the system proposed by the Amendment. All that is involved—and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor mentioned this—in registration is the completion of a simple application form (with a statutory declaration, if the appli-
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cant is not represented by a solicitor) and the payment of a fee of one shilling. This can be contrasted with the cost of an application to the court as proposed in the Amendment. It can also be contrasted with the embarrassment which an application to the court would probably cause to the wife where the parties were not living at arm's length. Registration of the charge would not cause any difficulty or embarrassment at all; indeed, it might become common practice, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, urged on Second Reading, for the wife to register her charge as soon as the matrimonial home was acquired, and this should not cause any complication or difficulties in the event of a husband wishing to dispose of the property.
I emphasise this last point. If the parties are living in amity, if the wife is friendly with her husband, she will agree to release her charge in favour of any purchaser or mortgagee, and she can do this either by concurring in the sale or mortgage to release her charge or by lodging a notice of cancellation with the Land Registry and paying a fee of one shilling. If the wife refused to release her charge the husband would be able to apply to the court for an order under Clause 1 which would have the effect of bringing her rights to an end. I would say this to those noble Lords who have put their names to this Amendment. In their desire to avoid giving the wife rights to the home before the break-up of the marriage can be predicted, they have devised a scheme which not only will fail to give the wife adequate protection but may well also introduce into any dealings by the husband complications which cannot arise under the Bill. They agree with the principle of Clause 1, which gives a wife the right to occupy the matrimonial home as part of the status of marriage; but if this principle is right, effective means must be devised for its implementation, and these means are embodied in the Bill. No objection can reasonably be taken to the proposal to give the wife an automatic charge on the property, provided the interests of the third parties are suitably safeguarded. This is what Clause 2 does, for all that a would-be purchaser or mortgagee has to do is to make a search in order to see whether the wife has registered her charge.

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Finally, may I just say this to the House: in almost every other country in the world—let us say less civilised than us, less affluent than us—the law protects the deserted wife. In most countries each partner may take out of the marriage what he or she brought into it, and property acquired during the partnership is shared equally. This rule applies in the Scandinavian countries, in West Germany, France, Spain, and in many of the States of the United States of America. I am not even asking for legislation such as obtains in those countries. This Bill does not confer joint ownership; it only establishes the right to a home for the deserted wife. Surely it should be inherent in marriage that a wife and mother should have the right to a home. Are the women of this country asking too much in seeking the protection enjoyed by women in less affluent societies?
4.25 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I apologise for addressing your Lordships for the third time on this point, but this is a matter which, by and large, will affect only laymen, and as I have taken part in this Bill and being, except for the noble Baroness whose Bill it is, the only layman who has so far intervened, I thought it proper to say something from the lay point of view. What has been said which is purely law I shall leave to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, to answer.
The only thing I would say in regard to the speech made by the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack—and indeed to the noble Baroness—is on this question of the Report stage and the Committee stage. The object of the Report stage is that if we have not got our Amendment right (and we all agree that at the Committee stage we had not got this Amendment quite right) we should be able to get it right at the Report stage. That is all I am going to say about that. I very much regret that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Doming, is not here to-day because we had a little argument about a point that I am going to raise, and I want to refer to something he said; but it will be in a pleasant manner and in answer to the argument he put up.
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We have listened to three speeches from the noble Baroness and two from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and it is quite clear to me that we husbands are a pretty awful lot. We frequently desert our wives, and we evict them at the drop of a hat; and, I take it, at night, when there is snow on the ground. All right, my Lords: we know that there are husbands who do that, and they are adequately dealt with under Clause 1. We fully approve of Clause 1, so that all this further talk from the noble Baroness in two speeches, particularly on the Committee stage, about desertion and eviction, does not in fact come in to what we are talking about.
We husbands have another nasty habit, too: we are very apt to sell the matrimonial home, or give it away, over our wives' heads, without their knowing anything about it; and it is that, and nothing else, that we are talking about now. We know that there are these cases. We know there has been one case in particular, the Ainsworth case, which has caused all this trouble; and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, told us that there have been other cases, though even he, I think, was forced to admit that the cases were not very many, and that there were even fewer cases of that kind in which the court was unable to give protection to the wife.
So we are dealing, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hodson, said last time, with a comparatively few future cases which mayor may not occur. On the other hand—and this is the point—we may be creating great inconvenience for hundreds of thousands of married couples when it comes to dealing with their property. I raised the point, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hodson, raised the point, last time in this Amendment we are concerned with comparatively poor people. If a rich man sells his house over his wife's head she, if she is wise, while these things are going on, trots off to the Ritz and stays there until her lawyers send in the bill. The rich are not going to suffer, whichever way we deal with this clause. We are dealing with the sort of people whose only asset is the matrimonial home. It may be their only capital asset on which they can raise money; and that is quite common, particularly among young married people. It is these people who will be put into

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difficulties if we do not amend this clause, particularly—and I repeat this—particularly as regards raising a mortgage or obtaining an overdraft from the bank.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, pooh-poohed this idea about it being difficult to raise mortgages. He said that it was really quite simple; that the only thing one had to do was to put the wife's name in the mortgage. I thought he was wrong, but I did not like to contradict him at the time. Yesterday I took the trouble to go and talk to one of our most important land and estate agents, who is also the director of a building society. He tells me that it certainly will not make it any easier if we do not amend this clause, and in many cases it will make it more difficult, because they are not very fond of including the wife in a mortgage if she has no property of her own, if the basis on which they grant the mortgage, apart from the building, is what the husband is earning. Because, from their point of view (I am talking purely from their point of view), if the husband, and he is the man who is earning the money, disappears—and that is not unknown—they may have to bring two actions if the wife is joined with the husband. A more important thing as regard mortgage which I had forgotten was pointed out to me; very often, always if possible, I think, the mortgage is raised before marriage, the husband taking it out in the engaged days. The girl cannot be joined with him at that time. If possible—they cannot always afford it—they like to have the house ready for coming back to after the honeymoon.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has been misinformed. The mortgage he is talking about that is taken out earlier has priority.
LORD DERWENT: It has been taken out earlier, but once they are married it has not got priority if the wife registers, and that is the question: whether from the word "Go" the mortgagees grant the mortgage. The way they look at it is this. They know they always run a risk with any married man if he is their only surety. The husband may lose his job. They take everything into consideration. If they do it from the word "Go" there is a slightly greater risk for them. But the
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much greater risk is when a loan is raised in a difficult time from a bank.
May I put it from the other point of view, under the clause as it stands if the Bill is unamended? I take the instance when the husband uses this clause against the wife, and I hope to hear the noble Baroness's comments on that. The picture I have in mind—it is not unusual—is where the house belongs to the wife, left to her by her father. The husband is the wage-earner. The wife may perhaps be, if the noble Baroness can imagine it, a somewhat bossy type, who holds the purse-strings and rather rules the roost. One day, like other women and men before her, she becomes rather extravagant, goes to the bank and says to the bank manager, "I want an overdraft", and he says, "What is the security?". She says, "My house".
He will now say, "Yes, that is all right; but you have to get your husband to sign this form saying that we take priority over his interest", which he would have under the clause as it stands. She goes home with the form in her hand and in at the front door, and says "Henry, come here". He meekly comes in and she says, "Sign there"; and at last the henpecked worm turns and says, "I want to read it". He reads it and says, "No". What will the noble Baroness's comments be on that day? The brutal husband! This is a serious problem, but it is only a serious problem for the poorer people who have no other assets that they can manipulate. I again say that I think it is going too far to say that matrimonial property can be tied up from the word "Go" for these people. It may make things very difficult for them.
Now we come to the question, finally as far as I am concerned, about the six months. The noble Baroness has suggested that we husbands are in a position suddenly to say, "I have got a mistress. Let's give my house away, or sell it". You can give it away quite quickly. If you are going to sell it, it takes a little longer. I cannot believe that any wife in her senses does not know that something is not going quite right, and that is the moment for the wife to go and have a priority registered, at that moment. If she will not do it then, she will not do it when she gets married. If, of course, as my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne said, it is the

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intention that they should all run round on the way to the wedding reception and sign, well and good. But that is not the idea. Very few wives, particularly of the poorer kind—the richer ones may do it because they would be advised by solicitors—are going to register until some trouble comes up or is in the offing. Then they go and register. At the end of six months things may be going better, they may be going absolutely all right; they maybe not quite all right. Then she can go and re-register. But there is a limited period in which handling the property is fully protected. I suggest that we are acting here for very few cases in which this sort of thing happens—selling over the wife's head without her knowing about it. To cover the very few cases which are likely to happen we are making things difficult, particularly in difficult times, for hundreds of thousands of other married couples, which I do not think we ought to do.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord said that the priority notice would give her protection. I do not know whether he appreciates that if the Amendment is passed she has no interest in the property, no charge and no protection at all unless and until, if she can afford it, she goes to the court and gets an order. If she gets an order, then the priority notice may have some effect; but she has no protection of any kind at all unless and until, if she can afford to do so, she goes to court and gets an order.
LORD DERWENT: For all practical purposes that gives her protection, because she is then in a position to go to the court, if the worst comes to the worst, and she then has protection from the original date. Unless the priority notice is put in she does not have protection from the original date. All we are arguing about here is dates. If she goes to the court, with this priority notice, she in fact gets protection which she would not have otherwise, even when she goes to the court. I think I am right.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord said that all we are talking about is dates. No doubt he appreciates that under the Bill as it stands she gets protection without having to go to the court for an order.
LORD DERWENT: I entirely understand that—at the expense of many hundreds and thousands of other married couples.
4.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTON: My Lords, as a layman who is puzzled by several points which I thought I understood at Committee stage and to which I should like to hear the answer, may I put a few questions which I believe will make your Lordships' debate a little shorter? If there is one thing that is more painful than having to argue a subject of this kind four times, as the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has said, it must be to hear Back Bench speakers saying the same things over again, so I shall try to confine myself to what has been said to-day.
The point on dates seems to me the relevant point, because the whole matter turns—without the legal niceties, which are very important, but none of us except the lawyers are qualified to go into them—on whether this Amendment gives protection to a spouse or not. I use the word "spouse" because although I have understood up till now that this is not going to be a Party issue, the noble Baroness, I say with respect, did seem in danger of turning it into a sex war issue, in that she used the word "wife", whereas I was trying mentally and frantically to translate it into "husband". I am not a spouse, but I think that if I married the probability is that I should be a husband, and I like to think how it would affect me. It is because I do not believe it would provide me with proper protection against whatever harpy I might marry that these are the points on which I want to be reassured.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, in his extremely clear statement, made two remarks—they are quotes, I think, from the Preamble, which I stupidly have not got. He said the Amendment was to protect deserted spouses, in effect, without damaging the property rights of those many thousands of married couples, spouses who are not threatened by a break-up of the marriage. I am not quite clear what is meant either by the words "deserted spouses" or by "threatened by the break-up of the marriage". If one is going to make this a question of statistics, does "deserted spouses" mean spouses who have been

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deserted, spouses who are conscious that they are going to be deserted, or spouses who are going to be deserted without being conscious of it? Putting myself in the last category, I have heard nothing that makes me happy about the position for them.
As to those who are not threatened by a break-up of the marriage, I speak as a layman because I think it is a point—I mentioned this before—on which a layman has as much right to express an opinion, and only an opinion, as the lawyers. How many married couples living now, or about to be born in the next 2,000 years, if this Act lasts so long, will be threatened by a break-up of the marriage? If a computer which was fed by Old Moore mated to a marriage bureau which had proper statistics, produced a child, that child might know the answer; but I cannot see how anybody else can know. Surely, on this question we are dealing with an uncertain number of people, and unless the Amendment provides protection in all cases, however many there are, I am not satisfied that it will be of any use.
The second point, and the only other point I want to raise, is the question which has been put extremely vividly and forcefully by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, as to the inconvenience after a marriage ceremony and, as he said, before the reception, of rushing out to register a charge. I have not contemplated matrimony, but I have frequently contemplated death. I have always understood that it was the custom, and I think a not dishonourable custom, that a husband, before getting engaged or when the couple were engaged would make a will.
If I were an advocate in a court opposing that practice, and had considerable experience, I suppose that I could draw a hair-raising picture of a man proposing to a lady who, before telling her, "You have made me the happiest man alive", would leap up and dash into a taxi-cab, and race off, either to his solicitor or to find two witnesses to whom he was to leave no property in the will, and make a will. That is not what happens. But that would not, I think, be a valid argument against making a will when one is at the point
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of death, or is believed, rightly or wrongly, by doctors to be at the point of death: but it is a precaution. Nobody thinks that a young man is morbid if, at the age of 21, on getting married, he either makes a will or alters it; that is, in spite of the fact that the law, even in its unaltered form, gives a certain protection to spouses, I think of both sexes, as to what they receive in the event of death. That seems to me a comparable case; what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, referred to as an ordinary thing to do.
Of course, not everybody would register a charge, just as not everybody makes a will. It would not be the kind of thing that a wife or a husband would sneak off to do. If they were detected in having done so, that would certainly cause a matrimonial row; and if either said openly, "Let me confess that I have done this, not because I think there is a danger of our marriage breaking up but because I thought it was a protection", I should think that that might also cause a row. I have not yet been convinced by any argument I have heard that anything substantially new has been raised, and, with the greatest respect, I must at present vote the same way as I did last time.
4.43 p.m.
LORD COHEN: My Lords, I shall detain your Lordships for but a short time. Indeed, I should not have found it necessary to speak if it had not been that, on the Second Reading, I said that I was unhappy, should the Bill go through as it is drafted, that it would become increasingly difficult to persuade banks and building societies to advance money for the purchase of matrimonial homes. Having listened to the debate, and having listened, in particular, to Lord Derwent, I am not entirely shaken in that fear. On the whole, however, I have come to the conclusion that the risk is not great; that it is not beyond the ingenuity of conveyancers—and I hasten to add that I am not one—to find a means by which, through joining the wife, the requisite facilities could be obtained: for instance, she could release any interest she might have. It would not raise the same difficulties as the noble Lord has mentioned.

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On the other hand, I am convinced by the observations of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the risk of failing to attain the objective for which this Bill is designed, and which is welcomed by all your Lordships—that of protecting the deserted wife—might easily suffer a serious setback if this Amendment were carried. I therefore propose to vote against the Amendment. It may be that there are few women who fall within the category of the deserted wife, but if the Bill is not carried, they will continue to suffer under a real grievance. I hope that your Lordships will not make it more difficult to protect them by carrying this Amendment.
4.47 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall detain the House for a few moments only. Unlike nearly every noble Lord who has spoken, I find this matter difficult. I may say that I was here on the last occasion but, not having heard the whole of the argument, I did not vote. I certainly was not prepared to vote against the noble Baroness without further consideration after hearing the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. On the other hand, I was not prepared to vote then in her favour, because I had not had the advantage of hearing the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce. Since then I have given the matter a little further consideration. I was greatly impressed on this occasion by the argument of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce.
There are only two matters which I should like to mention. One or two noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, drew attention to the rather extraordinary fact that occasionally we vote again on the Report stage on a matter that has already been decided on the Committee stage. There is nothing new about that. On this occasion it so happens that what is thought the more liberal view prevailed on the Committee stage; but it is possible on the Committee stage for some black reactionaries like myself and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter to triumph even if we are subsequently beaten on the Report stage. The right reverend Prelate may remember an occasion when he and I took the same
1216
view on an Amendment on the Legitimacy Bill. On that occasion I carried that Amendment on the Committee stage. But in a much fuller House I lost on the Report stage. I did not feel that I had any great sense of grievance; nor did I complain. I accepted the fact that in a much fuller House the other view had prevailed. There is therefore nothing novel of any kind, and I do not think there is even in another place, if a different view is taken on the Report stage from that which prevailed on the Committee stage.
Nevertheless, I was, I confess, very much impressed by the arguments of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, reinforced as they have been by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cohen. On the other hand, I cannot think that the matter is nearly as simple as was indicated by the noble Lady who found the whole scheme of the Amendment wholly absurd. It happens to be rather more in her favour than the scheme proposed by the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce. If noble Lords will turn to the chapter concerned, they will find the most weighty reasons given why the Royal Commission came to a conclusion which is adverse to the noble Lady. I can only say that I still find the matter difficult and, if it is forced to a Division, I am afraid that I shall probably again abstain.
However, I should like to make one proposal. The Lord Chancellor said that his view against the Amendment and what was recommended by the Royal Commission had been reinforced by some consultation which he had had with the Law Commission. I think that I have that right. It would be of great assistance to Parliament if we could have some statement of the Law Commission's view on this matter and the reasons why they differ so emphatically from the considered conclusions of the Royal Commission. That is all I have to say. I think the matter is a great deal more difficult than has been represented, and I am left in the greatest confusion by the discussion.
4.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce asked me to apologise for the fact that

1217
he could not be here at the end of this debate. I dare say the noble Lady will welcome that if there is, as I think there will be, a Division. May I, with the leave of the House, reply to some of the points which have been made? I am sorry the noble Lady thought that this Amendment should not have been moved at all. It is a difficult point and an important one; it is also a narrow one; but to suggest that it was wrong to raise it and that we were putting it forward as a wrecking Amendment is, in my view, quite unjustified and wholly wrong. I was also sorry that she had apparently failed to appreciate almost completely what this Amendment sought to provide. It goes further than the Royal Commission's recommendations. There, it is true, the protection can only arise when an order is obtained, but here by the giving of the priority notice the woman can safeguard her position.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount says that, but is it not the fact that unless and until she obtains an order she has no protection, though the priority notice, if and when she can afford to go to the court and get an order, can ante-date it?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I said safeguard her position, and I use those words advisedly. She gives her priority notice and then when she goes to court she gets the order and the order dates back to the date of the priority notice. So her position is safeguarded from that date and will take priority over any charge placed on it after that date. It is true that it will not become effecive until she gets the order, but then she has got to get an order under Clause 1; we are here dealing with Clause 2. The noble Lady, who makes such a fuss about going to the court to get an order, in her Bill under Clause 1, in relation to the right of occupation, has the clearest pro-

CONTENTS

Ailsa, M.

Dudley, L.

Ironside, L.

Ampthill, L.

Effingham, E.

Kemsley. V.

Atholl, D.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Bessborough, E.

Ferrers, E.

Merrivale, L.

Boston, L.

Fortescue, E.

Redmayne, L.

Buccleuch and Queensbury, D.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

St. Helens, L.

Clwyd, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Colville of Culross, V. [Teller.]

Grenfell, L.

Soulbury, V.

Croft, L.

Hayter, L.

Stonehaven, V.

Derwent, L. [Teller.]

Hereford, V.

Strathcarron, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Horsbrugh, Bs.

Strathclyde, L.

vision for going to the court to get an order.
The difference really, as I see it—and I am sorry to differ from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and from my noble and learned friend Lord Cohen—is this. Is it really necessary to go so far as to give this general right, subject to no limitation, to every married spouse to provide a protection, for the few sad cases of the deserted wives who may be deprived of the matrimonial home? I do not believe it is, if you can devise a satisfactory alternative procedure, and that I think we have done. It is a narrow point. It may well be that even if the noble Lady gets the Bill in its unamended form, a lot of women will not make use of the power until they think their marriage is threatened. Under our Amendment they will not make use of the power to file a priority notice until they think their marriage is threatened. It may be that in practice this will work out in somewhat the same way, but the difference, as I see it, will be that, if the Bill is carried unamended, it will lead to many inquiries being made by the third parties, and will involve additional investigations and expenses.
I thought the first speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Cohen, when he spoke about the difficulties the banks would have, and so on, was a little more convincing than the speech which he has made to-day which has apparently convinced him that he was wrong. Having said that, I think the best thing is not to debate the matter further, but to proceed to a Division and to see what the opinion of the House is on the issue which I now hope has been made clear.
4.59 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 37; Not-Contents, 54.

Swinton, E.

Vivian, L.

Teynham, L.

Wakefleld of Kendal, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Exeter, L. Bp.

Pargiter, L.

Archibald, L. [Teller.]

Faringdon, L.

Plummer, Bs.

Auckland, L.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Rhodes, L.

Barrington, V.

Gridley, L.

Rowley, L.

Beswick, L.

Hanworth, V.

St. Davids, V.

Boothby, L.

Hughes, L.

Shackleton, L.

Brockway, L.

Kirkwood, L.

Shepherd, L.

Burton of Coventry, Bs.

Latham, L.

Sinha, L.

Campbell of Eskan, L.

Leatherland, L.

Sorensen, L.

Champion, L.

Lilford, L.

Stonham, L.

Chichester, L. Bp.

Lindgren, L.

Strang, L.

Citrine, L.

Listowel, E.

Strange, L.

Cohen, L.

Longford, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Crook, L.

Maelor, L.

Summerskill, Bs. [Teller.]

Darwen, L.

Mitchison, L.

Swanborough, Bs.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Morrison, L.

Taylor, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Moyle, L.

Wade, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Moyne, L.

Williamson, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

BUILDING CONTROL BILL
5.5 p.m.
Brought from the Commons.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time. No doubt the House will have noted that this Bill has been set down for Second Reading next Tuesday, and I hope that the House will agree to take the Second Reading on that day.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

DOCKS AND HARBOURS BILL
Brought from the Commons.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time. This Bill has been put down for Second Reading on Monday, and I hope that the House will agree to that procedure.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BOTSWANA INDEPENDENCE BILL [H.L.]
5.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Beswick.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Consequential modifications of British Nationality Acts]:
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD BESWICK)moved to leave out subsection (5) and to substitute:
"(5) So much of the British Protectorates. Protected States and Protected Persons Order 1965 as relates to former protectorates, and section 5 of the British Nationality (No. 2) Act 1964 in so far as that Order was made by virtue of that section shall have effect in relation to the Bechuanaland Protectorate as if that Order had been made immediately after the appointed day; and accordingly after the appointed day that Order shall have effect as if, at the beginning of Part I of Schedule 4 thereto, there were inserted in the first column the words 'Bechuanaland Protectorate' and in the second column the words ' Botswana Independence Act 1966, section 3(2)'".
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to enable Botswana to be treated immediately upon independence as a former Protectorate, for

1221
the purposes of the British Protectorates, Protected States and Protected Persons Order 1965. It would be in accordance with our policy in respect of former Protectorates to treat Botswana in this way. I am also informed that, if we did not so treat this country, we should be in breach of our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, and the United Nations Convention on the Nationality of Married Women.
I ought perhaps to explain that the subsection which I am inviting your Lordships to delete would have meant that the position of the protected persons was covered by the procedure of an Order in Council. However, it might have been that the Order in Council was passed a week or two after independence, and during that time we should, technically, have been in breach of our international obligations. I suggest, therefore, that the revised form of words is a preferable way of dealing with this matter, and I hope that they will be acceptable to the House. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 38, leave out subsection (5) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Beswick.)
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the Amendment, which I think is quite acceptable to us, although the whole question of modifications of the British Nationality Acts is certainly extremely complicated—almost more difficult, perhaps, than matrimonial homes. But in order to clear my own mind, I should like to ask the noble Lord this question. Am I right in thinking that there are in Bechuanaland a number of citizens of the United Kingdom, and others who may have Commonwealth citizenship; and am I not right in thinking also that most people in Bechuanaland at present are British-protected persons? Am I also right in thinking that they will remain so after independence, and will thus continue to be eligible for the protection of the British Government when travelling abroad? This matter is so complicated that I should be most grateful if the noble Lord could give me an answer on those points.
LORD BESWICK: I quite agree with the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, that
1222
this is a complicated matter. Indeed, I had some difficulty myself in ascertaining exactly who was likely to be affected by this clause. The noble Earl is quite right when he says that at the moment the protected persons in Bechuanaland are protected by Britain. They are British-protected persons.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: They all are?
LORD BESWICK: They all are. On independence, under the provisions of the new Constitution of Botswana, the overwhelming majority of them will become Botswana citizens and Commonwealth citizens, but there will be some who will not automatically acquire Botswana citizenship. They have previously been British-protected persons, but they will not automatically acquire citizenship of the new Botswana Republic. Those are the people whom it is sought to cover by this clause. Under this clause they will be enabled to retain the protection which they previously enjoyed. There are not very many of them, but, even if there are only a few, it is right that we should ensure that, at least, they continue in the position of British-protected persons.
As such, they will, as the noble Earl surmised, be able to travel on the passport of a British-protected person. They will not have the right of entry to this country, and they will not even have the right of entry into Botswana; but they will, at any rate, be British-protected persons, and in that capacity will have a passport. Many of them, I imagine, if they have had a connection with Botswana, will be able in the future, if they so wish, to acquire citizenship of the new Botswana Republic. They will not acquire it automatically. I hope that, with that rather complicated answer on what is a complicated question, the noble Earl will be satisfied, and will agree that this is a proper course to take.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: I think that is quite clear. I accept what the noble Lord has said, and I thank him.
LORD BROCKWAY: May I just ask one question? My noble friend the Minister said that those living in Bechuanaland were British-protected persons. There is a considerable number of

1223
residents there of South African nationality, and I am assuming that they did not come under the umbrella of British protector ship, and will not, after this Bill becomes an Act.
LORD BESWICK: There are some individuals—for example, those born in South Africa—who may have held South African citizenship but who also held the position of British-protected persons in Bechuanaland. On the independence of Botswana, it is quite likely that such people will not wish to take up their South African citizenship. It is such people to whom we should like to continue to give the status of a British-protected person. They could then, in the future, choose, on reflection, to maintain their citizenship of South Africa, or they could choose to travel on their passports as British-protected persons. That position they have enjoyed in the past: that position they will enjoy in the future, if this Amendment is accepted.
LORD BROCKWAY: I thank my noble friend for that answer.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think it would not be fitting if the rather specialised point the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, mentioned about the drafting of this Amendment went entirely without comment from this side. On one of the Consolidation Bills that were dealt with in the last Parliament, there was, if I remember rightly, a considerable amount of comment upon the amendment of an Order by an Act. Now this is being done again here. I understand that the reason for this is that the Order might not come into effect because of its having to be laid, for the requisite length of time, and that there would be a gap; but I think the House ought to note that, by this Amendment, a specific amendment is being made by legislation to subordinate legislation, and I suspect that this is not a matter that the House would look upon with favour. There are not very many noble Lords here, perhaps, who thought about this on the last occasion, but I would ask the noble Lord to treat this an an exceptional case if, from this side, we do not make any further reference to it to-day.
LORD BESWICK: I should like to have an opportunity of consulting my legal advisers on this point, but, as I under-
1224
stand it, this is not a question of amending subsidiary legislation; it is a question of superseding it for this purpose. Under the original form of words we should have been using the procedure of an Order in Council. Here, we are legislating specifically for—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Unless I have misunderstood the Amendment, I do not think that that is what the Amendment says. What the Amendment says is that, accordingly, the Order shall have effect as if a certain amendment were made in the Order. Therefore, from the substantive part of this Amendment it seems to me to bean amendment to the Order. I do not wish to press this point. I have no doubt it has to be done because of the timetable; but I think it is a most undesirable thing to do in legislation, and I hope the noble Lord will make certain it is absolutely necessary and will also make certain that what I have said this afternoon is accepted as a warning against its creating a precedent for a future occasion.
LORD BESWICK: I will certainly read very carefully what the noble Viscount has said. I still think he is under something of a misapprehension, but I will have the point considered, and I will write to the noble Viscount about it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with an Amendment.

LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL
5.19 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. It was in another Session—indeed, in another Parliament—that your Lordships gave consideration to a Bill almost identical to this one: but, despite that, it was a very short time ago. I think, therefore, I should be justified, in my remarks at this stage of the Bill, in commenting only on the points of difference between this Bill and its predecessor—and these, fortunately, are not many.

1225
The first is in Clause 3, and is little more than a matter of drafting. The clause empowers Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to vary the amount of wages protected from arrestment by the Wages Arrestment Limitation (Scotland) Act 1870 as amended. In the first Bill, we provided that this Order in Council should come into effect one month from its being made. The Editor of Statutory Instruments has pointed out that if we make this rigidly one month it could, on occasions such as holidays, make for difficulties. The intention is that it should come into effect approximately one month after being made and the alteration in the present Bill is to make the period not less than one month.
The other change in Clause 9 is of rather more substance. This clause deals with appeals by stated case in summary criminal proceedings. As the clause stood in the previous Bill, it enabled the High Court of Justiciary on application to extend the five-day period within which an appeal must be lodged. Noble Lords will remember that these provisions were introduced at the suggestion of the Scottish Law Commission which felt that the peremptory nature of the periods might cause unjustified hardships. During the proceedings on the previous Bill representations were made from the Law Society and from the Glasgow Corporation that the periods in the 1954 Act were, in themselves, unnecessarily short and might well be extended. It has therefore been decided that these periods should be extended and we are substituting in the present Bill ten days for the previous five. This obviously will have the advantage that it may well reduce the number of occasions on which the High Court would be asked to exercise their discretion. It would not necessarily eliminate them entirely and, of course, we retain the discretionary provision although the period has been altered to ten days. These are the only changes.
I should like to mention two other points which arose on the previous Bill. On the Second Reading then, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest, expressed doubts about a provision declaring that the statutory restrictions on accumulation applied in a case where trustees were permitted to accumulate income but were not under a duty to do so. He considered that this would represent a change
1226
in the law that might give rise to practical difficulties, and he proposed that the relative provisions should be dropped until some such body as the Scottish Law Commission had the opportunity of considering the matter. This was done and the Government have recently received the Commission's advice. I am at present in communication with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest, and I hope to be in a position to put down an Amendment for consideration at the Committee stage which would put into effect the advice we have received from the Law Commission.
The second point relates to the law of marriage. Your Lordships will remember that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, introduced a clause on runaway marriages and withdrew it on my indication that the Government were discussing, or would discuss, with the Scottish Law Commission the question of reviewing the law of the constitution of marriage in Scotland. It has now been decided that a Departmental Committee should he set up for this purpose, and the Government and the Law Commission are discussing suitable terms of reference and how the Commission may most effectively co-operate in the review. Should very much have liked to be able to-day to announce the final arrangements, hut on a matter so important as this it is obviously both desirable and essential that the terms of reference should be got right in the first instance, and it has not been felt wise to rush a decision on the matter merely to give me the pleasure of making the announcement to-day. I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, in due course reads these remarks he will feel that he did not on the last occasion cast his bread on the waters.
As I indicated when the earlier Bill was before your Lordships, the Government welcomed suggestions for improvement which were made and, in reintroducing the Bill, we acknowledge the value of the work that has already been done in your Lordships' House. I think I may add in commending it that the prompt reintroduction of the Bill is an indication of the importance which the Government attach to maintaining progress in the law reform field. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hughes.)
5.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, it is really a pity that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has had to leave the Woolsack for the moment because it would seem to me that, whereas, in regard to the last Bill but one with which we dealt, he was complaining about matters being trotted out on Report stage as opposed to the Committee stage, here we have had an opportunity to look at a number of rather complicated matters of Scottish law and even at this stage have found that not everything is quite right.
I would not wish to depart from the admirable example set by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, or to do anything other than to comment on a few of the matters that he himself raised. The rest of the Bill was accepted by these Benches with a variety of enthusiasms according to the different matters and the different clauses which were dealt with last time. I see no reason to suppose that there has been any change of opinion, but I think we should be grateful for what has been said by the noble Lord this afternoon in making further explanations.
He says that the provisions of Clause 9(1) are new, as indeed they are; and this, I think, is a matter which requires general re-examination wherever it occurs. These very circumscribed time-limits for appeals and so on do cause trouble, and where they are very short and there is no power in the appellate court to grant a dispensation by way of application—where for some reason or another, very often not the unfortunate appellant's fault at all, the time limit has been exceeded—this is a matter which requires general reexamination. I hope that the Scottish Law Commission when it put forward this particular matter to be dealt with found this the only matter in Scottish law which requires similar reform. If there are others, no doubt we shall have another of these splendid hotch-potch Bills before very long to deal, among other things, with them.
I do not think that any comment need be made about the change in Clause 3. But I should like to say this about a
1228
matter which I do not think the noble Lord specified and which I think appears in Clause 6(2). As I understand it, the matter which purports to be declared by that subsection is not the same as that which the last Bill purported to declare; nor is it, indeed, what the law finally is at this moment—or so I understand from having read the debates and from what the noble Lord has said. I think, therefore, that we shall be interested to hear what he has to say if an Amendment is produced on the Committee stage. But we are doubtless extremely glad that on this matter he is still in consultation with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest, and perhaps also the noble and learned Lord, Lord Reid, because in that way we shall get it right, for they will be of much more help than I on this particular point.
I will draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, to what the noble Lord has said about runaway marriages. I think the noble Lord is quite right in saying that the terms of reference are very important in this case because, as I recall it, not only was the particular matter discussed twice on two stages of the Bill and found to be of almost unbelievable technical difficulty, but we also considered whether the idea should be to try to bring Scottish law into line with English law in this matter or vice versa. I hope that the Committee which is going to look into this will keep in touch with the various bodies concerned in England. so that we do not find that this Committee in Scotland and whatever body will consider it in England are working in divergent directions. I think this would be only a renewal of the sort of trouble that was envisaged when my noble friend's Amendments were being discussed last time. Subject to that, I think my noble friend will be happy with what the noble Lord. Lord Hughes, has said; and I will certainly see that it is brought to his attention. With these comments. I hope that the Bill will be given a Second Reading and speedily pass the remaining stages, subject to the one remaining matter that still has to be cleared up.
5.30 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I think it would be proper to add to what the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, has said in welcoming the Minister's statement

1229
about a Departmental Committee which is to inquire into the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood. I should like to supplement what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, about the importance of keeping in touch with the various bodies concerned in this intricate and urgent matter. At the same time, I agree that the very urgency of it should not interfere with the utmost care being taken in drafting the terms of reference. I support the Second Reading of the Bill.
5.31 p.m.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I think that all I need say in reply to the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, on the subject of the Departmental Committee to look into the marriage law is that I think this will not be a committee which will necessarily produce conclusions at lightning speed. The fact that consideration will be going on over a period, and at a time when consideration of the problem of marriage is being examined also in England and Wales, will inevitably produce a desire to have the marriage law of both countries brought as nearly as possible together. It does not follow that in every item it will be capable of being resolved on a basis of identical solutions, but I am quite certain that both bodies in both countries will be seeking to minimise the differences rather than to maintain any historical difference.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

POST OFFICE (SUBWAY) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

COMPANIES AND THE NATIONAL INTEREST
5.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH VISCOUNT HANWORTH rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, before dealing fully with the recommendations of the Jenkins Report on Company Law Reform, they will consider what further measures could be taken to provide an environment in which companies would be encouraged to work not only
1230
in the interests of their shareholders but also of their employees and the nation as a whole, having particular regard to the importance of exports and the needs of the consumer. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is a very broad Question, and I am not aiming to suggest any solutions to the problems I have raised—at any rate, no detailed solutions. Nor do I believe that there are any useful universal panaceas; if there were, I am quite sure that whichever Government had been in office they would long ago have found them and done something about them.
Perhaps this Question suggests a philosophy, and I believe this philosophy lies somewhere between the two extremes; the one, of course, being nationalisation continued into almost every area—which I do not believe that anybody thinks is practical at the present time—and the other extreme philosophy, the turning back to the industrial climate of the nineteenth century. This I think would be standing against the tide. It is an impossibility and cannot lead to any useful results. This nation and every nation is dependent on its industry, both to supply some of its own needs and to provide foreign currency by exports. In the nineteenth century it was held that the natural economic environment would automatically provide the incentives and restraints which were necessary to ensure that everything worked out for the best, at any rate in the long run. Many people then considered that it was wrong and ill-advised to interfere with this process of natural selection. But, my Lords, let us be quite clear that even in those days artificial restraints and incentives, quite apart from the industrial climate, did exist. They have now become hallowed by tradition and we often forget that they are very much the same in a small way as exists in industry to-day.
To-day such a degree of freedom is no longer practicable; we cannot accept the misery caused by unassisted redundancy or large-scale unemployment. It is at least questionable whether the inefficient company does not survive too long. It is even more doubtful whether, with the increased power of advertisement and high import taxes, the consumer in fact gets what he really wants. I am afraid that, whether we like it or not, the increasing complexity of the modern

1231
economy makes more central control an inevitable trend. We can see its necessity for many purposes; for example, to encourage industry to move into depressed areas, or to try to control monopolies and to prevent the ruination of our cities and countryside by unrestricted building. I am giving only a very few examples, but we all know these restraints, which in the past were perhaps not necessary, are essential to-day in a more complicated economic situation. However, unless or until computer techniques have been developed to a point far beyond what now seems practical, most of the decisions must—and perhaps always should—bemade by industry itself and they will, of course, be made in terms of the incentives and restraints which their environment provides.
For these reasons, I would ask the Government to look at this environment from a very broad viewpoint and consider whether, by altering some of the incentives and restraints, it may be possible to avoid further palliative measures which are designed solely to curb actions which are not in the national interest. One example of that, of course, is the Monopolies Commission; but I am not suggesting for a moment that we should do without it. It was designed to put a curb on industry and to halt certain abuses which, by the very fact of setting it up, we admit are going on and will continue to occur.
The first and probably the most intractable difficulty is that the company's legal obligations are almost solely to their shareholders. On these grounds, in theory at any rate, they are justified in operating on the highest profit margin which the market can bear and in paying the highest possible dividend to shareholders. I agree with the views put forward by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, in a recent debate. He said that a company must now be thought of as a partnership between the shareholders, management and other employees. Only by moving in this direction can employers hope to get a good working relationship with labour and a modernisation of outlook from trade unions.
There are many things which can be done to help in that direction, and I do not believe that any one of them alone will produce the result. Once we
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have established that this is the direction in which we want to move, it will be a slow process, and several different methods will have to be used to attain this end. One obvious one, which has been mentioned in the papers recently, is the granting of staff status to manual workers; and this I would very strongly commend to those who are thinking about this problem. I also think that on these grounds, if for no other, some effort ought to be made to discourage companies paying excessively high dividends once the risk taken on capital has received its due reward. I do not believe that we can ask the worker, the employee, to show restraint in his wages if he sees that all the profit is going for the payment of excessively high dividends. I know, of course, that it is a question of what the shares are worth on the market, and that unless you are a founder of the company, or have owned the shares a long time, your profit is not likely to be excessive. But I think that this is wrong in principle, and I do not believe it will ever be possible to make the man in the street feel that this is wholly fair. After all, what I have suggested was merely to discourage the payment of excessively high dividends, and this can be avoided without difficulty by capitalisation.
The level of advertising for many goods is far above that required to inform consumers about the types of goods available, and very seldom is it of a really informative nature. In fact, it has been said that although you cannot fool all the people all the time by substantial expenditure on advertisement, you can usually fool them long enough to replace indefinitely one bad product by another bad product. This state of affairs gives dubious orientation to some economic growth. Moreover, money spent on advertisement is wholly unproductive. I would suggest that, in spite of the difficulties, a graded tax on advertising should be very seriously considered.
Two recently introduced measures, one for redundancy compensation and the other the capitation tax, are interesting, because they are clearly capable of altering the environment under which companies work. The first by itself would tend to discourage companies from reducing their staff, whilst the second can have precisely the opposite effect. There are

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many other methods of affecting the industrial climate—for example, tax concessions on the purchase of new equipment. Major spending departments can do a great deal in the direction of improving efficiency and the quality of goods by means of mandatory provisions in their contracts. This has already been done in the case of developments contracts, where the insistence on programming by such systems as PERT has had important effects. I do not think that the Government should shrink from taking any such measures as would be likely to effect improvement—for instance, in the machine tool industry where the viability of a large number of small firms is highly questionable. I am sure that these and many other possibilities have occurred to the Government Departments primarily concerned, but I very much question whether much attempt has been made to look at such problems as a whole from a broad enough viewpoint.
I turn to matters more within the province of the Companies Act. There are many cases where the ability to form a limited company is being used solely as a means of reducing income tax or as a method of defrauding the public without incurring personal liability. The number of small companies being formed has greatly increased in the last few years and many of them do not survive. I should have thought this an unhealthy sign and that up to a certain size of enterprise there is no reason why the directors should not remain financially responsible, by insisting that the company be unlimited or guaranteed by the directors. In any case, the £100 which is now required seems an entirely inadequate sum on which to limit the liability. This was fixed many years ago and has not been altered.
As I said earlier, a consumer is often unable, without legislative assistance, to enforce his wishes or stop practices which are against his interest. One such practice, which was mentioned in your Lordships' House recently, concerns guarantees. Many of these take away the buyer's rights under the Sale of Goods Act, which include not only replacement of defective parts, but the labour charges and consequential damages. It is very seldom that the guarantee covers a period which is greater than the courts would consider reasonable under the Act. What
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this guarantee usually gives is nothing at all, except possibly a certain amount of convenience in so far as one does not usually have to sue for one's rights. I hope, incidentally, that one would not have to in other cases, but it does appear more likely.
I suggest that legislation to remedy this state of affairs would not only help the consumer, but provide a positive incentive for some manufacturers to improve the quality and reliability of their goods. I feel that to-day the consumer is not able to make his views and wishes as easily known as he did in the past. There are several things that could be done to improve his position. I believe that this increasingly will effect an improvement in industry, because although the consumer in England, if he cannot get what he wants, may just have to "lump it", and is prepared to do so, when it comes to exporting these goods people abroad have no such illusions, and if the goods are not suitable they will not accept them.
What I would say, in general terms, is that anything we can do to strengthen the consumer's voice is well worth doing. I would mention, for instance, schemes for informative labelling and for further consumer education. In both cases, I declare a slight interest. In conclusion, I should emphasise that, though I am in favour of free enterprise, I do not believe it is practicable, either politically or morally, to return to a state where free enterprise alone can achieve the results needed in this modem day and age. Let us make no mistake: if freedom of enterprise is our aim, it will be able to continue only if we are prepared to alter the control and environment affecting the entrepreneur.
5.46 p.m.
LORD CAMPBELL OF ESKAN: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, has raised a question of importance and of far-reaching implications. I agree with a great deal of what he said, but I want to approach the question from a rather different point of view. I suppose that I should declare an interest, in that I am chairman of a public company. I want to take as my starting point the fact that the Jenkins Committee was set pitifully limited objectives. The Cohen Committee in 1943 was

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asked to review Company Law and the "safeguards afforded for investors and for the public interest". The terms of reference of the Jenkins Committee excluded the public interest. The result is that the Report and recommendations of the Jenkins Committee deal exclusively with the relationship between directors and shareholders and with the protection of investors and creditors.
Shareholders are, of course, an essential component in a corporation; but they are only one among other factors involved; they are only one of the parties that need protection. As the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, implies, there are plenty of people other than shareholders with a stake in companies: the customer and the consumer; management and workers, who sell their skills and labour; and the nation, who, by law, have put their trust in the corporations by providing the device of limited liability—which, incidentally, at the time of its origin over one hundred years ago was described as "a rogues' charter". The Jenkins Committee has considered none of these.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, has spoken about providing an environment in which companies would be encouraged to work not only in the interests of their shareholders but also in the interests of their employees, consumers and the nation as a whole. But I do not see how any environmental ploys will or can achieve the noble Viscount's objectives so long as the only members of a corporate company are the shareholders and so long as directors are, in law, accountable only to the shareholders.
However much the Government may decide the social and economic objectives and priorities of this country; however much they can influence the situation by their powers; however much they may forge new Socialist economic weapons, the fact remains that the economic performance of the nation still largely depends in practice upon the actions and decisions and competence of thousands of individual company directors and executives and businessmen.
It is nowadays fashionable to say that management must manage. That is true enough. And it is fashionable to say that responsibility lies firmly with management. But the problem is: to
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whom are managers responsible and for what are they managing? The law says that the interests of shareholders are paramount. Conscience and common sense tell the managers that they have responsibility to their employees—and surely to their customers and to their country as well. The trade unions can justifiably take the view that if the job of management is to maximise profits for shareholders, the job of the unions is to maximise wages and conditions for their members. The Government tell management to try to hold an incomes line, to keep down prices and to export. Faced with this confusion of objectives and loyalties, torn between law and common sense and conscience, how on earth can we expect managers to move confidently and vigorously forward in the battle for the British economy?
The implication of the Question of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, is that Company Law must be reformed in the context of economic and social policy. These two are too often kept apart, whereas they are indivisible. Surely, my Lords, what is needed is a completely new look at the corporation, not simply by lawyers and City experts. The resources of the social sciences, of management and of trade unions must be brought to bear on the future of the corporation. The new thinking that is going on in other countries should be studied and compared.
I do not believe that the Jenkins Committee is a starter. I would urge upon the Government that the least they should do is to set up a new inquiry, including in the terms of reference, first, the reintroduction of the public interest, as in Lord Cohen's Committee, and, secondly, the examination of the desirability, possibility and means of making employees, as well as shareholders, members of the corporation, with rights and duties. It really is extraordinary that the worker's place simply does not exist in company law at the moment. And in a fully employed society, unless we establish the worker's place, how can we expect a sense of participation and co-operation? Without these, investors will not get profits, customers will not get service, and the country will not get the efficiency, productivity and economic growth that are so desperately needed. I am not suggesting that inquiries or laws can change

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the nature of shareholders, managers or workers, but simply that new company legislation should be backed by new inquiry instead of being grafted on to dead stock. What I myself should really like to see is enabling legislation which allowed and encouraged progressive companies to experiment, with the law on their side, in new forms of shared objectives in corporate enterprises.
Finally, my Lords, I am not decrying the role of the corporation in our British economy and society, or criticising the activities of my fellow businessmen. I am simply saying that, unless our responsibilities and objectives can be freshly defined, and the laws changed to take account of present-day social and economic realities, we shall not be able to deliver the goods (in any sense) that the nation needs of us.
5.53 p.m.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, I am sure that everyone in the House would agree that we have listened to two most interesting speeches, and we have good reason to be grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, for introducing this, on his own admission, very wide subject and dealing with it so lucidly. Indeed, it is a pleasure also to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Eskan, with his broad experience of operating successful companies to add to his wise speech to us this afternoon. However much the State may try to arrange things, we in this country, in the end, are always dependent upon the social impulses of the men who are at the top in affairs, whether they be affairs of State or affairs of industry and commerce. I think it is particularly interesting to see how already the directors of many of our leading companies are saying that they are fully aware of their social responsibilities, not only to their own companies, but to the nation as a whole.
In your Lordships' House in October, 1960, there was a most interesting debate upon the responsibilities of management—and here, although I may use the word "management", I should like to draw a distinction between the managers who manage and the directors who direct, because there is an important distinction in this matter. Several noble Lords then expressed views with which I am
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sure the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, would agree to-day. There was, for example, the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, who said that, on the whole, management to-day regards human relations more as a responsibility than it used to do. He went on to say:
"Most firms are careful to see that the importance of the human factor is effectively recognised by all grades of management."
In the same debate the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, paid his tribute to the recognition of public accountability by industry.
A great deal has happened since 1960, and, indeed, a good deal of research work is now going on in this rather difficult field—difficult because it cannot be precisely quantified. Last year, P.E.P., under Mr. John Pinder, started a three-year project, the title of which was "The Role of the Company Boards" including directors' "social responsibility" in taking decisions. Earlier this year the Industrial, Educational and Research Foundation, under the chairmanship of Mr. J. A. E. Reiss, undertook a long cool look at industry under such headings as "Responsibility of Private Industry", "Uses of Power", "Business and Morality", "The Future of the Board" and "Government Plans and Private Industry". I thought that your Lordships would be interested to see that a great deal of work is going on among various bodies in this particular field. I hope that if the Government choose to follow the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Eskan, and set up an inquiry, they will at least take into account the amount of work that is being done in this important field.
I should like to refer to the work which the Institute of Directors does (and here I declare an interest, in that I am a member of the Council of the Institute), because I know that it takes seriously this issue of a director's duties. The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, when President of the Institute, said in one of his speeches:
"I do not think that even for a moment should we allow ourselves to forget that we have the greatest responsibility for the people whom we employ and for their continuing happiness."
Earlier in the same speech Lord Chandos said that the first duty of a board of

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directors was to look towards the continuity of employment of everyone on the company's books. He said:
"That is not money grabbing, nor a fatuous statement. It is something which I profoundly believe."
And he speaks with all the experience, not only of a former Cabinet Minister, but also of one of our industrial leaders.
Perhaps I might also make the point that the director has no greater, but no lesser, duty to the State than that of any other citizen. I believe that he can best render this duty by making his company prosperous. If a company is not prosperous, it is not much use to the employees or to the consumers, whether the company has been supplying good goods or shoddy goods, whether the advertising expenditure has been too great, in Lord Hanworth's view, or not great enough. He must accept that neither he nor his company can exist at maximum profitability in a vacuum. No enterprise is insulated against the general state of the nation's economic health. The director may well, therefore, see it as his duty—a self-enlightened duty perhaps—to fall in with Government policy on, for example, certain matters which may be unpallatable to his company—say, on the redistribution of industry, or the setting up of a second factory in another part of the country a long way away from its main enterprise. But, of course, the director must weigh carefully the pros and cons, and the advantages to the country as against the disadvantages to his company; and he must make the correct decision in the interests of the company, while taking into account the interests of the State. In any event, as the director is responsible for his company, it must be he who in the final resort makes the decision calculated to ensure the success of the company.
I mentioned a moment ago that a director can decide to fall in with the wishes of the Government. It is important to notice to what a great extent now the leaders of industry and commerce provide members of committees of inquiry, and very often, chairmen of important inquiries and commissions, as well as making available for temporary normal Government service some very excellent businessmen and technologists,
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particularly for the Ministry of Technology and for the Department of Economic Affairs. I should like to mention one or two names. The noble Lord, Lord Fleck, Sir Harry Pilkington, Sir Paul Chambers, Mr. Reay Geddes, Sir Donald Stokes, Mr. Scamp, Sir Frank Kearton and Lord McFadzean, are but a few of the names who have been associated in recent years with important Commissions and Inquiries. They have fulfilled some of their social reponsibilities, sometimes giving more of their time, knowledge and experience to the State than to their own businesses
I accept fully that in this country of ours there is always need for improving practices which were innocent when they began but which turn into abuses, and it is for the State at the right time to intervene and check these abuses. The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, referred to the Monopolies Commission. I would not go so far as he did and suggest a graded tax on advertising. I should like to see fewer taxes, not more. I am disinclined to agree with him that dividends are excessive to-day. Indeed it is very hard to find the money to pay the dividend, with the new taxation arrangements. But this is not an occasion to take a Party line. This is an occasion to welcome a most interesting debate, and to say that I am sure that the vast majority of those who are responsible for British industry to-day are fully alive to their social responsibilities, and particularly to those of the community.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, may I make myself clear? I was referring to excessive dividends on the nominal capital, not to the yield.
6.2 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I would join with the noble Lords, Lord Campbell of Eskan and Lord Errol of Hale, in an expression of thanks to the noble Viscount for initiating what is a short, but very interesting, debate. My only regret is that at this time of night it will not receive the same publicity as no doubt the previous debate will receive in the Press to-morrow.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Eskan, put his finger right on the problem. It is how, in a democracy, particularly in time of peace, we can harness

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the energies, the enthusiasms, of the nation as a whole in developing the economic strength upon which all our social well-being depends. In time of war we all accept regulations. You are almost considered a traitor if you try to find some way round a regulation during war time. Yet in peace, although a nation may be facing a moment of equal gravity, the country naturally resents any form of regulation. It will accept it, but in its heart it really resents it. I think this is probably one of the difficulties which has arisen within certain sections of the trade unions in regard to prices and incomes—there is this natural resentment to control.
I think the noble Viscount was right when he said that we must now accept that we shall have to live, and continue to live, under what one might call a controlled economy. There will have to he a basis of restraint. I hope that in due course the restraint will be relieved, and that we shall be able to put more emphasis upon incentives. During their period of office since 1964 the Government have imposed certain restraints. These are all for the short-term issue of balance of payments. However, at the same time they have laid before Parliament, either in White Papers or in legislation, fairly sweeping measures in the incentive field, most of which will show results only in the long term. I will come back to that in a moment.
I believe that the environment about which the noble Viscount was talking will not be produced by legislation. It is true that legislation may remove certain of the major problems in particular spheres, so far as the workers are concerned: redundancy payment; relief from unemployment that arises naturally by the decline of an industry, and the legislation needed to protect the worker because of the increased use of machines. But in essence, the environment can come only from an acceptance by all persons within the community of certain needs and certain actions. This, of course, depends to a great extent on the Government continually putting before Parliament and the country, whether by speech or by other means of communication, what are the broad policies, what are the ends, and how those ends might be achieved. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of
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Hale, that it is not only a responsibility of Government, but a responsibility of the Institute of Directors and national repretatives of directors of companies. It is the responsibility of the Trades Union Congress as the overall co-ordinating body of the great trade union movement of this country. I should have thought that this view was growing apace.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, that many managers, many directors, are playing an important part in discussions with Government. It is true that this Government have undertaken a greater dialogue with both sides of industry than perhaps any Government in peace time in this country. We are making great use of the "Little Neddies" and the organisations set up to help particular industries. We have regional development organisations composed not only of directors or trade union leaders but of men and women from a fairly broad section of life. This is all to the good. I believe this is the way that we shall obtain the environment to which the noble Viscount referred. Your Lordships will have before this House the Docks and Harbours Bill, the Industrial Development Bill and, shortly after the Summer Recess, the Industrial Reorganisation Bill. All these measures are in the broad-term strategy of the Government, and I think they will he generally welcomed by industry.
The noble Viscount mentioned excessive profits. I suppose that whether profits are regarded as excessive depends upon who receives them. My experience is that few shareholders regard dividends as excessive, although some workers may take a different view. But this matter will be dealt with, as the noble Viscount will be aware; and no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, will be very much involved. We shall have in this Parliament a Bill dealing with prices and incomes. Excessive profits may well disappear, because higher profits arise, I suggest, only if prices are not reduced when they could be reduced by higher productivity and higher efficiency of the company. Those prices can be referred to the Prices and Incomes Board, and there is no doubt at all that the possibility of such a matter being referred to the Board—the mere possibility of it—is

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sufficient for the company to think otherwise. There are clear cases where companies have changed their minds very rapidly at the mere suggestion that their price increases should be sent to the Board.
As the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, is no doubt aware, the question of dividends will be submitted to the Prices and Incomes Board. The noble Lord is a fair man, and I do not think he will disagree that if we are to have a Board to examine the prices and incomes of persons, it is only right and proper that all forms of incomes should in some way be included in this examination. I am quite sure that when this Bill comes we shall have the support of the noble Lord.
In regard to obligation to shareholders, the Companies Bill which was introduced in the last Parliament provided for further disclosure of information to the shareholders. I think this is a very good thing. I should not like to say that this Bill will appear in this Session: it may well do. But I will say to the noble Viscount and also to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan, that if it does not appear in this Session they may be a little happier because of this delay, because in fact it may be somewhat broader and may meet some of the criticisms which I know were expressed among the more radically-minded Members of Parliament that the previous Bill was perhaps too limited. It was so limited, in fact, merely so that it could be fitted into the time-table of the last Government. I give that degree of comfort to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan. I will certainly pass on his suggestion of a further inquiry, although personally I do not think at this stage it would be right. The Jenkins Report was exhaustive; it took a good deal of time to produce, and if we were to set out on another long road of inquiry into Company Law I think it would be difficult to proceed, even on the limited basis of the February Bill. However, we will wait and see.
In regard to advertising I would not agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, that advertising is not productive. I have had some experience in business. It is quite clear that if you are to sell your goods you must make the public aware of them, and advertising is
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the only means I know by which you can do that. Therefore in that sense advertising is productive. It is perfectly true that in certain fields which spring to most people's minds (I will not mention them) advertising is probably excessive and could well be reduced.
This question was considered by the Committee that was set up by the Labour Party under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Reith, and while that Committee recognised that there may be cases of excessive advertising, they could not see how we could legislate for it—for instance, in regard to the method it takes, or some other form of limitation—because there are other ways of promoting goods which would involve expenditure to the company, and therefore a higher price of the article, than mere newspaper, television or hoarding advertising. We know that there are many promotional gimmicks, such as putting toothbrushes into packets of soap, which most people regard as being a complete waste of time and money; but one has to take it. It might well be that if we put a limit on newspaper advertising we should be supplied with more of these unnecessary and wasteful gimmicks. But we shall certainly watch advertising. As the noble Lord knows, the tobacco industry has accepted a voluntary restriction on its advertising, and I think this is something on which the Government may initiate a discussion. But it is more for the realm of the "Little Neddies" to decide whether, within a particular industry, the amount of money being spent on advertising is, in fact, necessary.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, also raised the question of small companies and thought that companies with a capital of £100 should not have a limited liability. This question has been carefully considered, and the Government took the view, as was shown in the February Bill, that it would be better not to set a limit and thereby prevent small companies from having that limited liability, but to do at least two things, the first being to remove the old exemption by which small private companies need not publish their accounts. I think that if small companies were required by law, as the bigger corporations are; to disclose their accounts once a year there should be sufficient information for companies and banks wishing to make cash

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advances to them. In fact the Jenkins Report rejected the suggestion made by the noble Viscount but, we did accept one of the proposals contained in the Report; namely, that the registration fees of these companies should be raised.
I have already referred to the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Eskan that there should be a new inquiry. I will see that his remarks are passed on to my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade. It is true that the Jenkins terms of reference were fairly limited. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, should have risen in defence, because I am not sure whether he was at the Board of Trade, when the Jenkins Committee was set up. As I say, it is true that the Committee's terms of reference were limited, but I personally do not believe that at this stage it would be wise to proceed with a new inquiry, at least until the proposed legislation has been before Parliament and is on the Statute Book.
The noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, made one of his gracious speeches. I do not really disagree with anything he said. I think that may be a good omen for the time when we have a number of Board of Trade Bills, on which no doubt he will be leading for the Opposition. I hope that the same spirit of sense and responsibility will continue and that we shall be able to get those Bills through rapidly. In closing, may I thank the noble Viscount for asking this Question?

RACE RELATIONS AND THE "GREATER BRITAIN MOVEMENT"
6.17 p.m.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the policy of the Greater Britain Movement regarding "the large coloured and influential Jewish communities" which is set out in Section 3 of the Movement's Official Programme published by the Albion Press, price sixpence, and whether, having regard to the fact that the contents of the said section would appear to contravene Section 6(1)(a) of the Race Relations Act 1965, criminal proceedings could be brought under the said Act against the person or persons responsible
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for the publication and distribution of the said Official Programme, notwithstanding the fact that in order to obtain a copy an intending purchaser must first become a member of The Viking Book Club by signing an enrolment form and paying a fee of sixpence. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I promise not to detain your Lordships for more than a few moments, but I think it is important that I should let you have the reasons for putting down this Question. The Greater Britain Movement I think is best described as the Nazi Party of this country, and the passage I referred to in my Question is contained in their Official Programme. I propose to read part of it out to you. It is under the heading "Nation and Race". I do not suppose that many of your Lordships ever read Adolf Hitler's Book Mein Kampf, but Chapter 11 of that book has exactly the same title, and there is a great similarity between that chapter and Section 3 of this Official Programme.
It starts off with the old nonsense about the Aryan race, saying that:
"Only those of British or kindred Aryan blood should be members of the nation."
It then goes on to say:
"Citizenship of the State. and hence participation in the life of the nation, should be denied to all those of alien race, including the large coloured and influential Jewish communities, who should be eventually repatriated to their countries of origin or to other countries suitable for settlement by them. Further immigration of such people into Britain should be permanently banned.
"With respect to the Jews; our movement, before as well as after such time as it may represent the Government of Britain, will be dedicated to the most determined exposure and eradication of their power in our land. We hold it to be the Jewish influence, in politics and commerce, in morals and culture, that is perhaps more than any other single factor responsible for the organised filth and corruption that has infected the body of our society. The removal of the Jews from Britain must be a cardinal aim of the new order, and must be directed not to Palestine—which the Jews have plundered from its rightful Arab inhabitants—but to another of the world's open spaces where Jewish money and Jewish labour will support the building of an entirely new Jewish state."
There is only one more paragraph I propose to read:
"For the protection of British blood, racial laws will be enacted forbidding marriage between Britons and non-Aryans. Medical measures will be taken to prevent procreation on the part of all those who have hereditary defects, either racial, mental, or physical."

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Section 6(1) of the Race Relations Act, 1965, to which I also refer in my Question, says this:
"A person shall be guilty of an offence under this section if, with intent to stir up hatred against any section of the public in Great Britain distinguished by colour, race, or ethnic or national origins—
(a) he publishes or distributes written matter which is threatening, abusive or insulting".
I should have thought your Lordships would agree that what I have just read out is certainly all three. There is another section, Section 6(2), which says this:
"'publish' and 'distribute" mean publish or distribute to the public at large or to any section of the public not consisting exclusively of members of an association of which the person publishing or distributing is a member."
The Greater Britain Movement did not miss that section. I propose to mention something about it.
There are a number of places where this charming little pamphlet can be obtained, but the chief one is the Viking Press, in Norwood High Street. Anyone can go there and get a copy, provided that he signs a form; and on the left hand side of the form appear these words:
"The Viking Book Club has been formed for the study of literature dealing with the Jewish question and other racial problems which it is not permissible to sell to the general public under the terms of the Race Relations Act 1965. Membership entitles one to obtain such Literature, and beyond the payment of an enrolment fee of 6d. carries with it no obligations whatsoever."
One then signs a form, in accordance with the notice:
"Please complete the form below and sign it, and cut out and with your enrolment fee of 6d. give it to the Viking Book Club."
A friend of mine got this copy by going to the Viking Press. He was served by no less a person than John Tyndall, whose name may be known to your Lordships. My friend signed the form, not in his own name, because Tyndall said "It doesn't matter what name you use"—and he did not even pay the 6d. That is why I out the Question down, and if, as I apprehend, there is a deficiency in this, Act, I hope that some steps will be taken to repair it.
6.23 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I should like to express appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liver-
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pool, for raising this matter this evening. The noble Lord is becoming almost a character in this House for raising matters of this kind. Recently we had the Swabey case; now he has raised this case, and I notice from the Order Paper that he proposes to raise a case in which there is apparently some doubt whether a sentence of death for murder was correct. He is almost becoming the Ombudsman of the House of Lords.
I rise to support what the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, has said, because I think Members of this House know that over a period of years I have been intensely concerned about this issue. I have introduced Bills in another place for a number of years which have dealt with the danger of the incitement of racial hatred. I recognise at once that there is a difficulty here, because most of us believe in liberty of speech, liberty of writing, and one has to balance the desirability of that liberty with speech or with writing which may bring grave social consequences.
The conclusion to which I came, when I faced that problem, was that, just as an individual who libels or slanders another individual can be brought into court, so an individual who libels a whole race, the consequences of which may be much more serious in social events, should also be liable to prosecution. The phrase which remains in my mind from the passage which the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, has read is this:
"We hold it to be the Jewish influence, in politics and commerce, in morals and culture, that is perhaps more than any other single factor responsible for the organised filth and corruption that has infected the body of our society."
I can imagine no phrase more likely to cause racial antagonism than that phrase. It certainly comes within the provision of the Race Relations Act.
The difficulty is that, superficially at least, one can obtain this pamphlet only by joining the club. I was interested to hear, as I listened to the speech from the Front Bench in the previous debate, how in war time if anyone tried by a "wangle" to escape regulations he was regarded as an enemy of our society. This is quite obviously a "wangle" to escape the effect of the provisions of the Race Relations Act. Indeed, it is acknowledged in the terms of membership

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of this Viking Book Club. They actually state that the purpose of the club is to publish material which would be illegal, under the Race Relations Act, if it were issued other than through the means of a club.
I think it very likely that the Government may say that they condemn this—indeed, I know they would say that they would condemn this as strongly as we do—but that under terms of the present Act it is not possible to proceed with a prosecution. If that is the case, if there is a gap in the Act, I would urge that it be filled as early as possible. On an earlier occasion I have asked whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce an amending Bill to the Race Relations Act. The necessity is recognised, but I gather that it is unlikely to be possible during the present Session. It is for this reason that I have given notice that on August 3 in this House I propose myself to introduce an amending Bill to the Race Relations Act, and I have made arrangements with friends in another place that the Bill shall be similarly introduced there. We shall certainly include in that Bill a clause which will fill this gap, so that these fictitious clubs, like the Viking Book Club, shall not have the opportunity to distribute this racial propaganda which may have such serious effects upon the whole community. If the answer of the Government is that this Act in its present form does not deal with this matter, my plea is that at least the Government will give facilities for the Bill which will seek to amend it to that purpose.
6.29 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, there is little need for me to say that those of us who sit on this Bench, and I am sure all Churches, are concerned in this matter, and we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, for raising it and much hope that the Government will be able to take effective action. I am particularly concerned because the headquarters of the Viking Book Club is in my diocese, or at any rate on the borders of it, and therefore it is a cause of concern to me and to the Church in the Southwark diocese.
I do not want to overrate them. I think that the influence these people have
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is extremely small. They are known for the political perverts they are; and the sad sort of political slime for which they are responsible has little effect on people. Nevertheless, there are some who are affected and, even though it be perhaps only half-a-dozen, I am sure it is in the interest of all of us that their activities should be stopped. So, while I appreciate all the difficulties and do not want to exaggerate them in any way, I hope the Government will be able to take effective steps to stop this nuisance.
6.31 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I think it is thirty years ago when I was in this House and a debate on foreign affairs was going forward that the first Marquess of Reading raised the question of the beginnings of Hitler's persecution of the Jews. I had the honour on that occasion to be the first Peer to express my respectful and sympathetic concurrence with what Lord Reading had to say. I am glad to recall that incident to-day. There are few things that I have done in my life which have given me greater satisfaction. In those days, Hitler's attack upon the Jews was of a comparatively mild nature, and a number of people, quite surprisingly, blamed me for what I had done and thought it was quite unnecessary to take serious notice of the quite mild anti-Semitism that was going forward at that time.
I do not see that there should be any great difficulty in bringing a prosecution against this alleged club. Your Lordships will remember that, quite recently, prosecutions were brought against a theatre club which was joined by an official under a false name. I think there was no objection to that prosecution, and I trust that the Attorney General will give this matter serious thought.
6.33 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, has performed a valuable public service in obtaining copies of the Programme of the Greater Britain Movement and bringing it to the notice of Her Majesty's Government and your Lordships' House. The right reverend Prelate,

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the Bishop of Southwark, quite rightly said that these mindless morons are an insignificant minority. But I was glad that the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, referred 1:0 what be said on an occasion many years ago; they cannot be safely ignored because at the time of which the noble Earl was speaking many people said the same things about Hitler. I have read the whole of this Programme, and Hitler's words and programme are the Alpha and Omega of these Norwood Fascists. Their programme in fact is Mein Kampf unadulterated—it is all there, everything except the gas chambers and the Belsens; and to ignore such infamies would make nonsense, not only of the Race Relations Act but of our deep-seated beliefs in free and equal citizenship for all the inhabitants of these islands.
As my noble friend Lord Brockway has pointed out, the Race Relations Act was designed to deal with minority groups preaching racial intolerance and with anti-Semitic and anti-colour propaganda. The then existing law was admittedly inadequate, and in the new Act we made it an offence to incite to hatred on grounds of colour, race, or ethnic or national origins. The problem, which was a difficult one, was to frame a provision which penalised racial scurrility, inflammatory speeches and publications, without curtailing legitimate comment or controversy. We were determined that legitimate public debate should not be inhibited, and the offence under the new Act was closely defined to ensure that it should bite only on the race-mongers. It was also designed to act carefully and selectively against the leaders and organisers, and that it should not be capable of being used against the ordinary man in the street engaged in ordinary conversation or discussion of the issues and events of the day.
The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, has referred to two parts of Section 6 of the Race Relations Act, and I would point out that they have three arms. First, the matter or words complained of must be threatening, abusive or insulting; second, the matter must be likely to stir up hatred against a section of the pubic on grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origins; third, there must he not only a likelihood, but
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also the intention, of stirring up hatred against a section of the public. Only a court can decide these matters; but it appears to me, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, said, that this Programme issued by the Greater Britain Movement offends violently against all three provisions, and it is obviously intended to do so.
Under the Act it is an offence to publish or distribute such written matter by any method. This is not confined to something done in a public place; it covers also the letterbox campaign. As Lord Russell of Liverpool pointed out, however, there is in Section 6(2), a definition of "publish" and of "distribute" which expressly excludes the publication or distribution of written matter amongst members of an association of which the person publishing or distributing is a member. It is this exclusion which the Viking Book Club have sought to use, in the belief that they can thereby conduct their filthy and dangerous trade with impunity.
As my noble friend Lord Brockway said, this intention is clear because the order form expressly states:
"The Club has been formed for the study of literature dealing with the Jewish question and other racial problems which it is not permissible to sell to the general public under the terms of the Race Relations Act 1965."
Many people would regard this as a full acknowledgement of a deliberate flouting of the spirit of the 1965 Act. I want to point out that this does not mean that the Act is ineffective. There is, indeed, clear evidence that it has had considerable effect, that the amount of offensive literature has been drastically reduced and that the Fascist leaders are doing all they can to avoid distribution to the general public.
I think that the noble Lord by his account has made this clear. But I say now that it certainly would not be safe for the leaders of the Greater Britain Movement to assume that, even if the distribution of pernicious publications is confined to members of the Viking Book Club, this necessarily means that there is not an infringement of the Act.
The particular section of the publication to which the noble Lord has drawn attention epitomises the racial intolerance associated with the Greater Britain

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Movement. Lord Russell of Liverpool did not read it all. There are such choice phrases as these which he did not read out:
"Urban slums made yet uglier by the arrival of imported sub-humanity bringing disease and filth, rape and drug traffic."
There are many more such phrases in this so-called Programme. But however detestable or pernicious these views may be, there is no evidence that they have been disseminated to members of the public at large. This is the important point as the Act now stands.
This publication, I am informed, is not displayed in the window of the Viking Bookshop and the police have no grounds for believing that it is available to persons who are not members of the movement or of the Viking Book Club. I have, however, taken careful note of what Lord Russell of Liverpool said of the manner in which his copy was obtained and what was said to his friend when it was obtained. I will see that those points are considered in the proper quarter. But copies are not posted to or pushed through the letter-boxes of unwilling recipients, or handed to people in the street. They are available only to those who want to read this sort of stuff, and are willing to take the trouble to go or send to the Viking Bookshop and become a member of the Club.
I am informed that active membership of the movement (the Programme clearly defines members and supporters) does not exceed thirty members who pay the required subscription and undertake active work—thirty intellectual illiterates with an inferiority complex so deep that, in order to be able to live with themselves, they have to assume a superiority based on the colour of their skins and an accident of birth. There are also passive supporters, who pay less and make no undertaking, but counting these together with the members of the Viking Book Club, the total number of participants does not exceed some three hundred in all.
As I have said, the publication of written matter strictly among members
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of an association is not an offence under the Act. This provision was thought to be necessary if the affairs of clubs, businesses and even political Parties were not to be liable to unjustifiable interference. But if this provision leads to blatant evasion we shall have to look at it again, although I am bound to add that a satisfactory Amendment will be difficult to frame. My noble friend Lord Brockway mentioned that he hopes to bring in a Bill, and he told me that he would include a clause or clauses which would close this gap. I shall be very pleased to read those clauses when he has drafted them. Meanwhile, as I have indicated, the Act has been effective in confining literature of this sort to clubs such as the Viking Book Club, and checking its distribution to unwilling recipients.
The Government are aware of the policy of the Greater Britain Movement and of the Viking Book Club, and its literature is being closely examined. I can assure your Lordships also that the police are well aware of the club's activities, and if the club takes any action which might he a breach of the law the case will be referred to my right honourable friend the Attorney General with a view to seeking his consent to the institution of proceedings. The Act has been in operation for only a few months, but if experience clearly indicates that its provisions do not suffice to deal effectively with the mischief at which it was aimed, I can assure your Lordships that Her Majesty's Government will be ready to consider the introduction of amending legislation. In the meantime, we must and will work the present Act to its full extent.

BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
Reported without amendment.

BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
The Queen's Consent signified, and Bill reported with amendments.
House adjourned a quarter before seven o'clock.