Sitting of 8 February 1966

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
HOVE CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Read a Second time and committed.
LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
OLDHAM CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    Developing Countries (Business Efficiency)
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloydasked the Minister of Overseas Development what requests he has received from the governments of developing countries in receipt of aid for the services of business experts to assist the private sector of their economies.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Overseas Development (Mr. Albert E. Oram): I call attention to my reply of the 1st February to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Eyre). Requests in this field are relatively infrequent. Our policy in such matters is broadly to respond to the requests for technical assistance which originate in developing countries, rather than to make specific offers ourselves.
    Mr. Lloyd: Will the hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that while many of us admire the technical work of his
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    Department, the purpose of this series of Questions by my hon. Friends and myself is to jog the Department out of its negative attitude on this matter, where the United States leads with the International Executive Corps?
    Mr. Oram: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the first part of his supplementary question, but I do not think that he is right in suggesting that we are negative in this matter. We recognise the importance of the topic which the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are raising, and I am considering ways and means by which such expertise can be mobilised.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloydasked the Minister of Overseas Development what steps he is taking to ensure by promotion of business efficiency that the £300 million per annum being granted to developing countries will be used to the best advantage.
    Mr. Oram: I think the right hon. Member probably means £200 million rather than £300 million. As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Eyre) last week, we are ready to meet requests for assistance in this field. I do my best to promote efficiency in the use of our aid.
    Mr. Eyreasked the Minister of Overseas Development how many volunteers have been assisted by his Department to help private business firms in developing countries.
    Mr. Oram: One, Sir.
    Mr. Eyre: Is not this disappointing? Would not it be possible to change the emphasis of policy, perhaps to encourage an awareness of the economic possibilities for development and to provide chances for volunteers from this country to go to help?
    Mr. Oram: As I said in reply to an earlier Question, I am considering ways and means of meeting the kind of point which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. The present voluntary organisations are not really engaged in this kind of work, but I agree that the general problem needs looking at.
    Mr. Chataway: Will the hon. Gentleman study this American scheme whereby businessmen, some of whom are retired,

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    are enabled to give voluntary service of this kind in the developing countries? I believe that in the United States it is popularly known as the "Paunch Corps". Will he consider whether a similar scheme might be encouraged in this country?
    Mr. Oram: I have already given some attention to the American example. I do not think that it would quite fit our needs, but in the consideration which I am giving to this matter I will take the American experience further into account.
    Mr. J. H. Osborn: Will the hon. Gentleman also undertake to consult British firms with overseas activities to see whether he can help them at the present time? There is a well-defined need.
    Mr. Oram: Yes, Sir. I am seeking ways and means whereby discussions of the kind which the hon. Gentleman has in mind can take place.

    Europe
    Mr. Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Overseas Development what assistance his Department is providing to the developing countries of Europe through the United Nations or the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development by bilateral arrangements, or in other ways; and if he will give details of this assistance and of the British personnel involved.
    The Minister of Overseas Development (Mr. Anthony Greenwood): Since we are providing a good deal of assistance, and detailed information is asked for I will, with permission, write to my hon. Friend to provide it.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on this side of the House would like to congratulate him on his new appointment? Will he bear in mind that there are parts of Europe, particularly the Mediterranean area, and indeed Turkey—which counts as part of Europe for these purposes—where conditions are very bad indeed, where there is malnutrition and grave poverty, and where development schemes are very valuable?
    Mr. Greenwood: I much appreciate my hon. Friend's opening remarks, and I look forward to his co-operation. I have very much in mind the consideration
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    to which he draws attention. Turkey has received a good deal of help, and I think that my hon. Friend will be interested in the figures which I am sending him today.

    Regional Development Divisions
    Mr. Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Overseas Development what progress he has made with the establishment in the Caribbean, in Africa, the Far East and South America of regional development divisions similar to the Middle East Development Division based on Beirut, in view of the demand for British technical assistance in those regions, and the success of the work of his officers in the Middle East.
    Mr. Greenwood: The Caribbean Development Division of the Ministry of Overseas Development will shortly begin work. Office staff have arrived in Barbados and the head of the division, Mr. W. L. Bell, will go there this month. Professional staff will follow.
    I am considering the possibility of similar development divisions elsewhere but this is not a favourable time for their establishment.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Members on both sides of the House will be delighted with his Answer? For many years the work of the Middle East Development Division has been greatly appreciated in the Middle East, in the countries covered by the excellent officers working there. This is an admirable development. Can my right hon. Friend say when he expects the Caribbean Division to be fully operational?
    Mr. Greenwood: My hon. Friend's remarks about the Middle East Development Division will be greatly appreciated by its members. I expect the Caribbean Division to be in full operation some time in April or May.

    Developing Commonwealth Countries (Credits)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Overseas Development to what extent in the last 12 months credits have been provided for developing Commonwealth countries, such credits to be spent on surplus capacity in the United Kingdom; and how much of such credits

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    has been spent in the development districts in Scotland and England and Wales, respectively.
    Mr. Greenwood: We try to take account of the possibility of employing unused industrial capacity when considering requests for aid, but it has not been found practicable specifically to relate credits to surplus capacity and it is not possible to relate expenditure directly to particular development districts. I will, however, gladly consider any suggestions my hon. Friend wishes to make.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the suggestion came from the party itself, in its election manifesto? What steps are the Government taking to implement this policy, in view of the fact that it would help development districts in this country as well as the developing Commonwealth countries with which we are so deeply concerned?
    Mr. Greenwood: I appreciate that this is a point to which we were committed, and also a point on which right hon. Members opposite conducted an experiment a few years ago. We try to take these considerations into account, but it is not always easy to match up the needs of individual countries with the surplus capacity that is available.

    British Council Librarians
    Mr. Chichester-Clarkasked the Minister of Overseas Development what action he is taking to remedy the shortage of British Council librarians in the developing countries.
    Mr. Oram: There is a general shortage of qualified and experienced librarians in the developing countries, but the larger British Council libraries are supervised by professional British librarians employed by the Council. The Council seeks to fill such gaps as exist as funds become available.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is something else he could do to remedy this situation? It is quite dreadful.
    Mr. Oram: I agree that this is a grave matter, but it is not easy for us to create this kind of post unless we have firm requests from overseas Governments. There have not been many of these. When they come in we treat them with every sympathy and urgency.
    Dame Joan Vickers: In view of the great importance of this work, will the hon. Gentleman consider training in this country more people from overseas to act as librarians in their countries of origin?
    Mr. Oram: That is an important point, which we bear in mind in considering the extension of our training programme.

    School Leavers and Overseas Service
    Mr. Molloyasked the Minister of Overseas Development what steps have been taken to implement the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Ealing, North and agreed to by the House on 14th May, 1965, relating to school leavers and overseas service; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Oram: The work outlined in my replies of 20th July and 30th November continues and has been intensified. In the last two months officers of my Department have made 33 visits to institutions of higher education to talk about opportunities for overseas service. A new booklet has been produced to meet the needs referred to by my hon. Friend when he spoke on his Motion, and has been distributed to many undergraduates and sixth formers. I will send a copy to him.
    Mr. Molloy: Is my hon. Friend aware that what he has been able to say this afternoon will gladden the hearts of many people involved in our youth organisations, as well as the young people themselves and members of the profession? Will he consider enlarging the area in receipt of such information and, perhaps in collaboration with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, see that as much information as possible is sent to our schools?
    Mr. Oram: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. I can assure him that we have this matter very much in mind and shall extend the work whenever possible.

    Sabah Designated Officers (Pay and Conditions)
    Dame Joan Vickersasked the Minister of Overseas Development what settlement has been made with the Government of the Federation of Malaysia in regard to the conditions of pay and service of the Sabah designated officers.
    Mr. Oram: Negotiations are in progress with the Government of Malaysia but no settlement has yet been reached.
    Dame Joan Vickers: In view of the excellent relations that we have always had with the Government of Malaysia, and the fact that these excellent officers will be needed for a considerable time, could not the hon. Gentleman press on with negotiations in order to see whether we can get a real settlement this time? It would be a worth-while thing to do.
    Mr. Oram: We are pressing on as the hon. Lady urges. It is a matter of some difficulty and delicacy, however, and I am sure that she will realise that I would prefer not to say anything further at this time.

    India (Food Crisis)
    Mr. Chatawayasked the Minister of Overseas Development what additional help has been offered to India, in view of the famine threatened in that country.
    Mr. Greenwood: We have assured the Government of India that we will respond as swiftly and as fully as we can with help in India's present food crisis. As an immediate and interim contribution we have offered an interest-free loan of £7½ million and the Government of India have warmly welcomed our suggestion that this loan should be used towards the foreign exchange costs of shipping emergency supplies of wheat and other food stuffs from Commonwealth countries, the provision of grain handling equipment for Indian ports and the purchase of commodities of immediate value in helping to deal with the emergency, including pesticides, fertilizers and intermediates for the manufacture of vitamin pills.
    Mr. Chataway: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that this offer of £7½ million is wholly or almost wholly within the sum already pledged by the British Government to help India? Will he say whether he is satisfied that the desperately few remaining weeks before famine is likely to hit India are being used to maximum effort by us and by other Commonwealth countries to aid India in these very severe difficulties?
    Mr. Greenwood: The sum does include £6 million which was available and which
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    would not have been expended. The suggestions we have made have been warmly welcomed by the Indian Government as a contribution towards solving the difficulties that they are facing. We are in consultation with other countries—especially the United States and other members of the Commonwealth—about the possibilities of further help. This is an immediate and interim provision.
    Mr. H. Hynd: To the extent that this loan will be used for buying goods for India, is there any stipulation that they will be bought from Britain or other Commonwealth countries?
    Mr. Greenwood: Not at the moment, so far as I know, but this is a matter on which we are in consultation with other countries. The important thing is to get the help there as quickly as possible, rather than to worry very much at this stage about where the money is spent.
    Miss Harvie Anderson: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the prime need is for maize and that, however important it may be to get a certain amount of wheat there, what will prevent absolute starvation in a few weeks' time is the making available of maize, as this is by far the greatest shortage?
    Mr. Greenwood: Yes. Other countries have food surpluses available for distribution in this way. The main problem is getting the grain-handling equipment into Indian ports. That is an aspect to which we are paying special attention.

    Commonwealth Medical Service
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Minister of Overseas Development what consultations took place at the recent Commonwealth Medical Conference at Edinburgh concerning the creation of a Commonwealth Medical Service; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Oram: None, Sir. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the report of the conference. He will see from the report that the proposal was not raised then.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: When speaking in the House on 20th July last did not the hon. Member undertake to discuss this matter at the Commonwealth Medical Conference? Does not he agree that there is a continuing need, for as far ahead as

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    we can see, for a long-term project of Commonwealth aid on the lines of a career service in Commonwealth medical aid?
    Mr. Oram: Last July I said that the conference might prove a suitable forum for a discussion of what the hon. Gentleman had in mind, but I did not say that we would raise the subject because, as I indicated in my answer then, we did not really believe that this was a suitable initiative for us to take. If there is anything in the idea it would have been better for it to be raised by the Commonwealth countries which are the recipient nations—and they did not see fit so to do.

    Former Overseas Civil Servants, Rhodesia (Tanzanian Pensions)
    Sir J. Fletcher-Cookeasked the Minister of Overseas Development (1) whether he is aware that over 30 former members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service, and widows of such officers, now in retirement in Rhodesia, have not received their Tanzanian pensions since October, 1965; and what steps he is taking to ensure that they receive the pension due to them;
    (2) whether the Government of Tanzania, on ceasing to pay pensions to their pensioners in retirement in Rhodesia, informed Her Majesty's Government of their intention so to default, in view of the Public Officers Agreement to which the Government of Tanganyika, as it then was, and Her Majesty's Government were both signatories, and in view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government have frequently informed Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service pensioners that such Public Officers Agreements safeguard the payment of their pensions.
    Mr. Oram: I am aware of the position. There has been no default on the part of Tanzania. Payment of pensions has been interrupted as a consequence of the general restriction on remittances from Tanzania to Rhodesia. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations is now making representations through the Canadian High Commissioner in Dar-es-Salaam to the Tanzanian authorities with a view to securing the resumption of the payment of pensions.
    Sir J. Fletcher-Cooke: Is the Minister aware that, in view of the fact that the
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    vast majority of these pensioners have nothing else to live on, they are hardly likely to be satisfied by a reply which suggests that negotiations are going on? Have not Her Majesty's Government an obligation, under the Public Officers Agreement, to make good any default, as they did when pensioners from Zanzibar and British Somaliland were unable to receive their pensions?
    Mr. Oram: I agree with both parts of the hon. Member's supplementary question. We recognise the situation and are urging that the financial difficulties should be overcome. We are confident that before long this will be possible. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I would put it to the hon. Member that it is understandable that communications with Dar-es-Salaam have been somewhat difficult. We are taking all steps open to us to get the matter resolved quickly.
    Mr. Chataway: In view of the fact that on the two previous occasions to which my hon. Friend has referred—when payments to British pensioners were discontinued by independent Governments—the British Government stepped in and paid the pensions, can the hon. Member say whether the same practice will be followed on this occasion?
    Hon. Members: Yes or no?
    Mr. Oram: We must, I suggest, await the result of the representations which we have made before we decide what remedial action will be necessary.
    Mr. Hogg: In the meantime, is aid to Tanzania continuing just the same?
    Mr. Oram: There have already been Answers to Questions on that subject.

    Overseas Aid
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Overseas Development what was the total of overseas aid given by Great Britain in 1965; and what proportion of this went to Commonwealth countries.
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Minister of Overseas Development what was the total overseas aid given by Great Britain in 1965; how much of this was private investment and how much Government aid; if he will express each as a percentage of gross national income; how this compares with the previous two

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    years; and what are his financial targets, within the National Plan, for the current year.
    Mr. Greenwood: The figures for private investment and for gross national product in 1965 are not yet available. British Government disbursements of economic aid were provisionally £189 million in 1965, compared with £160 million in 1963 and £191·6 million in 1964. In the latter years the percentages of gross national product were 0·59 and 0·66 respectively. About £147 million of the 1965 total went to the Commonwealth. The Government's target for gross official aid in 1966–67 is £225 million.
    Mr. Fisher: I appreciate that this aid is continuing to run at a very satisfactory level, but would the Minister care to acknowledge that this is directly due to the arrangements made by the previous Government? Indeed, his predecessor said as much last summer.
    Mr. Greenwood: Of course, the figure which I have just announced for 1965 was slightly lower than in 1964 and it reflects the decisions taken by right hon. Gentlemen opposite in their last year of office.
    Mr. Baxter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although we do not want to boast of the amount of aid which we are giving to Commonwealth and underdeveloped countries, he should try to make universally known the amount of work and aid which we give to these places? Having just come back from a Commonwealth conference, I am of the opinion that many people do not know the amount of aid which we give.
    Mr. Greenwood: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, but I am certain that the aid we give is appreciated by the countries which receive it.
    Mr. Osborn: When does the right hon. Gentleman think that we will meet the U.N.C.T.A.D. target of 1 per cent., which was mentioned in his party's election manifesto some time ago?
    Mr. Greenwood: A number of figures are not available. When they are, I shall be in a better position to judge.
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Minister of Overseas Development what discussions he has now had about a special
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    tax for overseas aid; and to what extent such a tax is now official Government policy.
    Mr. Greenwood: None, Sir. Such a tax would not be in accordance with Government policy.
    Mr. Osborn: In a broadcast recently, the Minister undertook to look at this and to have discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Does he not agree that it would be valuable to relate total aid to a tax which the man in the street understands, particularly Income Tax?
    Mr. Greenwood: I think that the hon. Member has in mind the television programme in which he played a most notable part. I was asked, during the programme, whether I would favour a special tax for overseas aid. I replied that, traditionally, we did not earmark taxes for specific purposes and I turned away the question with what I hope was a disarming smile by saying that I should have to consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Rhodesia (Grants and Loans)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Overseas Development what grants or loans for humanitarian or medical purposes from Government or other sources, respectively, for Rhodesia have been blocked; and what grants or loans are to be allowed to be sent to Rhodesia.
    Mr. Greenwood: The British Government had promised the Rhodesian Government £800,000 towards the cost of a new teaching hospital in Salisbury, and, as my predecessor informed the hon. Member in reply to a Question on the 21st December, action on this must follow the general decision to cease aid to Rhodesia.
    The question of the blocking of grants from other than Government sources, and the question of what grants or loans may now be sent to Rhodesia are matters for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Wall: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why an arbitrary cut of 25 per cent. has been made to all missions for education and health purposes and why, for example, the grants for research into tuberculosis have been stopped altogether?
    Mr. Greenwood: Tuberculosis research has now been taken over by a charitable organisation and will not be impeded. The level of the remittances, as I said, is a matter for my right hon. Friend. But it is only right to say that the Conference of British Missionary Societies recently issued a statement saying that it had received every consideration from the Government in the discussion of its problems and that the level of remittances authorised by the Government was reasonable and fair.
    Sir F. Bennett: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any further news of the talks about aid for the university there, which is one of the few non-racial organisations and which is trying to raise the level of African education, which is the Minister's desire as well as that of the rest of the House?
    Mr. Greenwood: Aid is continuing to University College in Salisbury, which is a multi-racial organisation.

    World Bank (Supplementary Financing)
    Mr. Chatawayasked the Minister of Overseas Development what support he will give to the World Bank's recently published proposals for supplementary financing; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Greenwood: The scheme in question is a report by the Bank's staff for the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development rather than a proposal by the Bank. We are giving it thorough consideration. The supplementary financing proposals were sponsored by the British and Swedish Governments and we hope that they will lead to a viable scheme.
    Mr. Chataway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Government have done nothing to follow up the initiatives taken by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition at the 1964 U.N.C.T.A.D. Conference? Will he at last put his weight behind this proposal for ironing out the fluctuations in the export targets of developing countries, as this is of first importance and it stems, as he said, from that U.N.C.T.A.D. Conference?
    Mr. Greenwood: The hon. Member is a little unfair. This is a matter which we have been pressing: it is a most valuable suggestion. It is too early yet to say whether it will prove to be feasible in practice, but it could be a most useful contribution to the prosperity of the developing countries.
    Mr. Dell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it would cause considerable disappointment if the British Government were unable to support these proposals, especially in view of the very low cost put upon them by the World Bank?
    Mr. Greenwood: Proposals are at present before the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development and there is no intention on our part of obstructing them. I am most sympathetic to them, but there are a number of practical details still to be worked out.

    Milk Products (Export)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will take steps to increase the export of milk products to the under-developed countries where the population is suffering from malnutrition.
    Mr. Oram: I am considering with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture the possibility of including skimmed milk powder in the commodity component of the United Kingdom's pledge of $6·2 million to the second 3-year period of the World Food Programme.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister appreciate that, by 1970, there will be a considerable surplus of milk in this country? If this milk is not sold the herds will have to be reduced. Would it not be far better for the Government to buy up surplus milk—or have a plan for doing so—than to spend money uselessly in Cyprus and Singapore?
    Mr. Oram: It is possible that what I have indicated as our present intention could be extended. I will have my hon. Friend's point in mind.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, unless his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture looks favourably at the Price Review for the dairy farmers, there will be a shortage of milk by 1970?

    Africa (Tropical Agricultural Studies)
    Mr. Joplingasked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will examine the need to set up short courses in tropical agricultural studies in Africa for graduates in temperate agricultural studies who are embarking on periods of service on the continent.
    Mr. Oram: The courses already available at the Faculty of Agriculture of the University of the West Indies are adapted to the requirements of service in tropical agriculture generally and we have not yet found any need to supplement these by the kind of course in Africa suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Jopling: Would the hon. Gentleman look at this problem again, in view of the fact that the School of Tropical Agriculture in the West Indies has relatively few teachers with experience of African agriculture? The United States also has this problem and there may well be a case for setting up an institution of this sort for short courses for learning tropical agriculture in Africa itself.
    Mr. Oram: We have this matter under our attention, but the courses available in Trinidad cover the conditions and problems which agriculturists encounter in other tropical zones. We feel that familiarisation with local conditions is most effectively achieved by posting to a specific job.

    Grants (Control of Expenditure)
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister for Overseas Development what control he exercises over the expenditure of grant aid by the receiving country.
    Mr. Greenwood: Grants are made only for approved purposes, which vary widely, and the methods used in controlling the expenditure vary according to the kind of grant. Generally our posts overseas exercise supervision, and there is usually a subsequent accounting or audit.
    Mr. Dempsey: Cannot my right hon. Friend see to it, in the follow-up procedure, so that we may be satisfied that these moneys are spent on, say, the development of the social services in these countries; and can he give an
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    assurance that under no circumstances grant aid money is spent in a fashion which could impede the fulfilment of self-government?
    Mr. Greenwood: The management of aid is one of the most important and difficult aspects of the problem. I assure my hon. Friend that it is a matter which I have very much in mind. If he has any evidence of any misuse of moneys made available through Her Majesty's Government, I will gladly look into it.

  TECHNOLOGY

    Liquids (Sea Transport)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Technology what progress has been made in developing flexible types of seagoing vessels and capsulation methods of transporting liquids in bulk.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology (Mr. Richard Marsh): An articulated ship has been devised by a firm of naval architects. The National Research Development Corporation recently announced its willingness to consider sharing the cost of development of this ship as a joint venture if a suitable industrial partner can be found. N.R.D.C. has for some years been supporting the development of dracones, flexible containers that can be towed on water and used for the bulk transportation of liquids. Dracones are already in production and are operating successfully in several parts of the world.
    Mrs. Short: I thank my hon. Friend for that full and interesting reply. My hon. Friend made it clear that there are proposals which will revolutionise turn-round at the ports. Will he bear in mind that, on these benches at least, we expect that the nation as a whole will gain whatever benefits accrue from public money invested in these schemes and the work carried out at N.P.L.? May I ask—
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must make her questions shorter.
    Mrs. Short: Would my hon. Friend explain what dracones are? I am sure that the House would be interested to know.
    Mr. Marsh: Dracones are flexible containers used for the transportation of liquids and, in some cases, grain. They are usually made of nylon fabric coated with synthetic rubber or some similar substance. [Interruption.] Both sides of the House are interested in progress in this sphere, though one side happens to be rather better at it than the other. An interesting possibility of this development is the articulated ship, which would produce a situation in which cargo could be uncoupled from the after end in port, so expediting turn-round.

    Government Establishments (Wages and Salaries)
    Mr. Martenasked the Minister of Technology by what percentage wages and salaries have risen in the last year in the Government establishments for which he is responsible.
    The Minister of Technology (Mr. Frank Cousins): Changes in individual rates of pay have conformed with such wage and salary movements as have applied to the Civil Service as a whole.
    Mr. Marten: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what action he has taken or is taking to see that wages in the departments over which he has some influence do not go above the norm? For example, would he consider making a firm statement in favour of keeping wage increases in line with the incomes policy?
    Mr. Cousins: It will be the intention of the Government in total, not Ministers as individuals, to maintain the high level of productivity which will encourage high earnings.
    Mr. Biffen: Would the right hon. Gentleman say why he cannot give the percentage increase figure? Has he represented to his right hon. Friend the First Secretary the serious disadvantages under which he labours if he is unable to provide this kind of statistical information, information which must be essential if the Government and the nation are to understand whether or not the incomes policy is succeeding?
    Mr. Cousins: To answer the first part of that supplementary question, I can give the total in terms of a percentage. To ascertain precisely the percentage
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    increase in salary and wage rates would involve a considerable amount of work, but the percentage increase has been approximately 3½ per cent. To answer the second part, of course the information, as is well known by hon. Gentlemen opposite, is not as readily available as it should be in our statistical records.

    Railway Industry
    Mr. Martenasked the Minister of Technology what steps he has taken to stimulate the use of modern technology and new processes by the railway industry.
    Mr. Cousins: British Railways and London Transport already undertake research into the application of modern technology to the railway industry. This work has the support of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and I am considering with her whether any further Government initiative is required, particularly in the field of longer-term developments.
    Mr. Marten: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall the brief which he was given by the Prime Minister, and which appears in HANSARD of last November, that he should stimulate productivity in industry? What has he done to stimulate productivity in British Railways?
    Mr. Cousins: The hon. Gentleman apparently does not recall the statement to which he is referring, which said that I should stimulate productivity in the industries for which I had the sponsorship.

    European Nuclear Energy Agency
    Mr. Websterasked the Minister of Technology what assistance his Department has given to the European Nuclear Energy Agency establishment at Ispra in the evaluation of nuclear developments; and whether this includes costings.
    Mr. Marsh: The Computer Programme Library of the European Nuclear Energy Agency collects and distributes magnetic tapes on which are recorded data related to fundamental scientific and engineering problems in the nuclear field. The library does not handle material relating to the evaluation of nuclear installations or to costings.
    Mr. Webster: Is it not regrettable, now that the advanced gas cooled reactor has a cost advantage over most other recent technological nuclear energy processes, that common criteria are not yet developed, and will not the Minister press for this on the European Nuclear Energy Agency?
    Mr. Marsh: With respect, the hon. Gentleman misunderstands the activities of Ispra. It does not deal in this particular field. Nuclear installations are almost all of an individual design and to evaluate their effectiveness and costing is very much a matter for individual judgment. The answers would be different depending on the economists concerned and the locations involved.
    Mr. Snow: If that is so, how are we to read the Report of this organisation since, owing to the lack of common criteria, it is impossible to judge which forms of production of nuclear energy are more economical?
    Mr. Marsh: I think my hon. Friend will agree that the information which is obtained from this organisation is very valuable indeed. The information relating to nuclear installations is not something which this organisation—or, indeed, anybody else—can cost on a general basis because the criteria are so different.
    Mr. Websterasked the Minister of Technology how many computer programmes have been sent to the European Nuclear Energy Agency establishment at Ispra in the last convenient period.
    Mr. Marsh: Since it became operational in May 1964, the Computer Programme Library of the European Nuclear Energy Agency has received 299 computer programmes, of which 32 were from the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Webster: Since one-third of these computer programmes are provided from the United States, is it not high time that Britain had a greater contribution to make, since this very much concerns our exports to Europe?
    Mr. Marsh: The Computer Programme Library is now approaching the end of its first three-year term of existence. Proposals relating to the centre are under consideration by the Government, who will then consider their policy towards the centre in the light of this. Of the
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    32 programmes sent to the centre by the United Kingdom, 26 were from the Atomic Energy Authority and six from C.E.G.B.

    Concrete Flats, Lichfield (Water Absorption)
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Technology if he will refer to the Building Research Agency the problem which has developed in recently constructed concrete flats at Lichfield and elsewhere, where water absorption has caused serious degrees of mould on inside walls for which there appears to be no remedy.
    Mr. Cousins: I have referred the problem to the Building Research Station, which has already been approached on this matter by the City Engineer of Lichfield.
    Mr. Snow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these flats—and I believe that there are other cases elsewhere—were constructed by a very reputable private enterprise company which has more or less accepted that it does not know the answer to this problem, which is making uninhabitable certain of these badly needed rooms?
    Mr. Cousins: I am aware of that. The problem is not confined to this district or to this reputable firm. It is a question of understanding the need for change in building design and of educating members of the community living in premises which do not have traditional flues.

    Aldermaston
    Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Minister of Technology if he will state the number of occasions on which he has made official visits to the Aldermaston establishment and the dates and reasons of such visits.
    Mr. Cousins: None, Sir.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Why is the right hon. Gentleman so coy about making a visit to this establishment? Surely he enjoyed his former visits, when he marched in the "Easter Parade"?
    Mr. Cousins: I appreciate that the hon. and learned Gentleman finds it a little difficult to hang his supplementary question on to that reply, but the reason why I have not been is not that I am

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    coy but because that particular installation is engaged on defence work, which is primarily the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation. I have spent a great deal of my time going to places that are under my direct control and important to the job I am doing.
    Mr. Hogg: But will not the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is the continued policy of this Government, as it was of the last, to diversify the work at Aldermaston so as to include civilian research? Will he not visit Aldermaston for that purpose?
    Mr. Cousins: Certainly, when it is appropriate to do so.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Aldergrove Airport (Duty-Free Shop)
    Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his policy with regard to an application for a duty-free shop at Aldergrove Airport, Belfast, County Antrim, in order to cater for passengers on charter flights to and from the continents of Europe and America; and if he will make a statement.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): Duty-free shops can only be allowed where there is a likelihood of substantial foreign currency earnings.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Will the Financial Secretary give favourable consideration if a request is made in the circumstances of this case, as this is the airport for the whole of Northern Ireland?
    Mr. MacDermot: No, Sir; not unless the percentage of foreign passengers rises substantially. My information is that 95 per cent. of all passengers from that airport are United Kingdom residents.

    Rhodesia (Payment of Pensions)
    Mr. Wallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements have now been made for the payment of pensions in Rhodesia; and whether pensions are now being paid to Britons in Rhodesia and to Rhodesians in Great Britain.
    Mr. MacDermot: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to the
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    hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) on 7th February. The answer to the second part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
    Mr. Wall: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that pensioners of Rhodesia, both here and in Rhodesia, are receiving their pensions without undue delay?
    Mr. MacDermot: To the best of my knowledge the payment of pensions is now flowing smoothly, thanks to the present arrangements.
    Mr. Peter Walker: But would not the Financial Secretary agree that these payments are going only to public service pensioners, and will he not reconsider the fact that people in private pension schemes are not receiving any payment of pensions at all?
    Mr. MacDermot: No, Sir. That statement is not correct. The arrangements apply also to private pensions.

    Exchange Control Regulations
    Mr. Barnettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take early action to eliminate the effects of exchange control regulations in so far as they are shown to be harmful to companies attempting to increase their export potential.
    Mr. MacDermot: Export policy and exchange control policy are complementary. Both are designed to secure a sound balance of payments. Exchange control policy is always under review.
    Mr. Barnett: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware of the rather idiotic situation that exists, under which a company which sets up a distribution organisation abroad with a view to helping its exports finds that in the existing set-up it costs an extra premium of 20 per cent.—£200 for every £1,000? Is not this a rather silly situation, and will he not look into it?
    Mr. MacDermot: I sympathise with that argument, and I realise that the export trade is immensely important, but it is also immensely important to contain the outflow of capital. In the kind of case to which my hon. Friend refers, a solution can be found by the firm borrowing abroad.

    Government Contracts
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what instructions he has issued to Departmental Ministers as to the conditions to be imposed on applicants for Government contracts.
    Mr. MacDermot: None, Sir.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Financial Secretary at any rate confirm that he does not permit Departments to impose a "closed shop" as a condition of tender, although his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing allows local authorities to do that?
    Mr. MacDermot: If the right hon. Gentleman has any particular case in mind, I shall gladly look into it. I know of no such general direction.

  HOUSING

    Northern Region
    Mr. Urwinasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the total number of houses built in the Northern Region in each year from 1960 to 1965; how many of these were built by traditional methods and by industrialised systems, respectively; and what were the respective numbers in the private and public sectors.

    HOUSES AND FLATS COMPLETED IN THE NORTHERN REGION

    Local authorities and New town corporations

    Housing Associations and Government Departments

    Total Public Sector

    Private Sector

    Total all dwellings

    Industrialised

    Traditional

    1960

    …

    …

    9,827

    726

    10,553

    9,280

    19,833

    1961

    …

    …

    8,537

    684

    9,221

    9,980

    19,201

    1962

    …

    …

    10,066

    736

    10,802

    9,145

    19,947

    1963

    …

    …

    7,827

    894

    8,721

    8,487

    17,208

    1964

    …

    …

    455

    9,693

    659

    10,807

    10,074

    20,881

    1965

    …

    …

    758

    9,930

    617

    11,305

    9,062

    20,367

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Rating System
    Mr. Roseasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he proposes to initiate legislation with a view to a fundamental change in the rating system.
    Mr. Parkasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Robert Mellish): With permission I will circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Statistics of industrialised building relate only to dwellings built by local authorities and new town corporations and for these only since the beginning of 1964. Very few, if any, houses have been built by industrialised methods by other agencies.
    Mr. Urwin: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but would he accept the fact that Cmnd. 2206, issued by the last Administration, though very belatedly, established a target requiring a 38 per cent. increase in housing in the Northern Region? Without planning requirements being carried out, can my hon. Friend say how soon it will be before even this modest target is reached?
    Mr. Mellish: With industrialised system building, whatever has happened in the past we can say that the prospects for the future are extremely good, because in the public sector, for which we have a great deal of responsibility, we are very much hoping that the figures will show an increase from 18 per cent. of the total last year to 25 per cent. or 28 per cent. this year.
    Following is the information:
    he will now introduce legislation to replace the rating system by a more equitable method of local government finance.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Crossman): I would refer my hon. Friends to my reply on 2nd February to a Question by the hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. L. M. Lever).
    Mr. Rose: I appreciate that reply, but would my right hon. Friend bear in mind the enormous burden of rates that falls on families this year, in particular? Would he take action in the matter of priority so as at least to transfer some of the burden from the rates to the Exchequer?
    Mr. Crossman: As my hon. Friend knows, we are certainly concerned about this matter. We are now preparing our second rating Measure, which will be presented to the House in a relatively short time.

  BUILDING AND HOUSING (SPEECH)
  Mr. Costainasked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of the public speech he made at Bletchley on 4th December, 1965, on the subject of building and housing.
  Mr. Murtonasked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of the public speech he made at Bletchley on 4th December, 1965, on the subject of building and housing.
  Mr. Allasonasked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of his speech at Bletchley on 4th December, 1965, about housing and building.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I spoke from notes, so that no complete copy exists. But I am arranging to place in the Library that part of my speech which dealt with building and housing.
  Mr. Costain: Does not the Prime Minister admit that between 1960 and the average level of housebuilding rose by 6½ per cent. and that between and 1969 the Government propose to increase it by only 5½ per cent.? Is he satisfied with this increase? Can he not do something to improve it?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. That is what we are doing. I also recognise that in the last eight years of Conservative rule, there were five years in which they did not get 300,000 houses.
  Mr. Allason: How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile his denial that controls would restrict new housing with the fact that, in the event, controls had the effect of cancelling or postponing £76 million worth of new housing, which is the equivalent of 15,000 houses?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is very wide of the mark. What I said in that speech was that how the party opposite voted on the Building Control Bill would be a test of its sincerity about housing, because one could not both build all the houses needed and all the non-essential building which had up to that time gone unrestricted.
  Mr. Murton: Does the Prime Minister recollect that in his speech he referred to the Conservative housing target as a paper target? Will he say what happened to the 434,000 houses that were left under construction in 1964, of which only 383,000 have been completed? Will he not admit that his own target of 500,000 is, if there ever was one, a paper target?
  The Prime Minister: The Conservative target was a paper target because, in the first place, at the time when they left office they had not provided for the necessary materials—[Interruption.]—and housing was held up all over the country for that reason. Secondly, housing was desperately held up for several months by shortage of labour, and the position was improved only as a result of the stringent controls we put on last July. With regard to the number of houses they left under construction when they went, the numbers are higher now than they were then.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: How can the right hon. Gentleman say that the target left by my right hon. Friend was a paper target, when not only were there 434,000 houses under construction but, by the end of the year, there was a surplus of materials?
  The Prime Minister: We have been over this matter at four successive Question Times, and I am happy to go on for another four provided that I do not have to repeat everything I said last time, which the right hon. Gentleman still has not understood. It was a paper target for the reason I explained: that to start houses does not mean that one gets them finished. But if the right hon.

  203
  Gentleman says that the figures the previous Government left behind prove that it was a real target and not a paper target, he will automatically agree that we now have a real target, and the number of houses started is now 450,000.

  COMMONWEALTH FAMINE RELIEF OPERATION
  Mr. Braineasked the Prime Minister what further developments there have been in the Commonwealth famine relief operation announced on 8th January; how many tons of food have been earmarked for the operation and by which countries; how many tons of food have now been moved; and to what destinations.
  Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister what progress has now been made in the Commonwealth project for the relief of drought in Rhodesia.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer hon. Members to the Answers I gave on 3rd February to Questions by the hon. Members for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser), Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) and Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker).
  Mr. Braine: Is the Prime Minister aware that last week he made no reference at all to famine conditions in East Africa, where they have been as bad as, if not worse than, anywhere else in the Continent? Will he say how much food has been earmarked by other Commonwealth countries and ourselves further to the operations announced early in January, how much has been moved, and to what destination?
  The Prime Minister: I agree that I failed to mention East Africa last week. After the statement was made the Kenya Government said that they thought they would probably need food, but our High Commissioner in Nairobi now tells us, after discussion with the Kenya Government, that food supplies and prospects in Kenya are now adequate and that the local shortages earlier in the year were met by maize imports from the United States. In regard to the second part of the supplementary question, as I explained last week in every case we have studied with the Governments concerned
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  what is required so that we can mobilise Commonwealth assistance in meeting any requirement. As to where it is most urgent, in the case of Bechuanaland and Basutoland there have been very considerable figures—which I shall give to the hon. Member if he asks for them. In regard to the others they are being organised.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: Are not the false hopes raised in Rhodesia by the Prime Minister's proposal mocking the hunger of thousands of Africans? Would it not have been perhaps more helpful in the relief of drought if oil sanctions had not been applied, thus impeding the movement of cattle and grain?
  The Prime Minister: We made quite plain from the beginning that we would deal with any figures supplied to us of Rhodesian requirements. Mr. Smith treated this proposal of ours very scornfully and we had to rely on what information we could get from the Governor. I gave a summary of that information last week. With the recent rains there is less fear of shortage of food for human beings, but the situation will have to be reviewed very carefully in two or three months' time.
  Mr. Heath: The authorities in Australia House and Canada House have stated publicly that after a month they have not been invited to any meetings and not asked to provide relief. They are waiting to hear what they are to do after the Prime Minister's telephone calls to Mr. Menzies and Mr. Pearson. When will the Prime Minister take action on this if this is a genuine attempt to help famine relief?
  The Prime Minister: Of course it is a genuine attempt. Perhaps in his research the right hon. Member missed out the fact that there was a talk with the Prime Minister of Canada at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference in Lagos. We have first to discover the requirements—
  Mr. Blaker: Why was that not done first?
  The Prime Minister: Because it was first essential to know whether we would be able to meet the supplies and not just ask for statistics. We are talking here about food for human beings and

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  the first thing is to find what the requirements are. Some Governments have been a bit slow. Then we shall mobilise whatever help is needed.

  TARIFFS
  Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Prime Minister whether, in his recent talks in Washington, he discussed the question of the lowering of tariffs and following up the initiative that was taken by the late President Kennedy in this respect.
  The Prime Minister: Sir, in all my talks with President Johnson, the joint desire of both Governments to give effect to the late President Kennedy's proposals for lowering tariffs and dealing with other impediments to world trade, has been central to our examination of world economic problems.
  Mr. Ridsdale: Why has the Prime Minister not done mote in the last year to breathe new life into President Kennedy's liberalising initiative? Surely it would be very wrong to make the strengthening of Atlantic relations re-conditional on the uncertain process of European unification? Surely it is possible to ride both these policies in double harness?
  The Prime Minister: However that may be, the reason why faster progress has not been made in the Kennedy Round over two or three years—right hon. Members opposite suffered the same difficulty as we have suffered—has been the long slowing up of the process due to the inability of the E.E.C. to negotiate particularly on agriculture. We all know why it happened. This is one thing which cannot be blamed on either the present or the previous Government.
  Mr. Grimond: Will the Prime Minister assure the House that it is the policy of the Government to reduce tariffs? Can he say when the 10 per cent. surcharge will be removed?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, of course it is our policy to reduce tariffs and we want to ensure that the Kennedy Round is a success. If it is held up indefinitely we shall have to consider other methods of giving effect to the same objective. When the surcharge was introduced I said that we regretted it as a retrograde step
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  because it might be regarded as a protectionist measure. It is not a protectionist measure and as soon as it is safe to remove it we shall do so.

  GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND
  Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Prime Minister if he will advise the replacement of Lord Cromer as Governor of the Bank of England by Mr. Thomas Balogh.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Jenkins: I thank my right hon. Friend on behalf of you, Mr. Speaker, and myself for the brevity and clarity of that reply. Is it not the case that as my right hon. Friend has the advice of Lord Cromer he should occasionally listen to it, because sometimes it may be good? Did Lord Cromer last night give the advice that our defence expenditure abroad had outstripped our needs? Would it not be a good idea that we should look again at defence expenditure overseas to see if we can reduce it?
  The Prime Minister: I am deeply moved, as I am sure Lord Cromer will be, by the fact that since this Question was put down my hon. Friend has become such a rapid convert to some of the things Lord Cromer says. Last night Lord Cromer commended this Government very strongly indeed for the fact that we have been showing the way to exercise—[Interruption.]—I am taking up a very familiar sermon which the noble Lord delivered last year—we have been showing the way to keep a tight grip on the target set for expansion of public expenditure where hon. Members opposite failed to do so.

  SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (SPEECH)
  Mr. Deanasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Secretary of State for Education and Science at Harrogate on 7th January, on comprehensive education, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Dean: Is the Prime Minister aware that the speech of his right hon.

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  Friend is widely regarded as a direct attack on direct grant schools? Would he deny that those schools have an excellent academic record and take children from a wide variety of schools and that if they went comprehensive their character would be destroyed?
  The Prime Minister: I certainly did not interpret my right hon. Friend's speech in that way, nor did he mean it in that way. Nor do the words bear the interpretation which the hon. Member has put upon them. My right hon. Friend referred to direct grant schools and the whole speech was in full accord with statements made from the Government Front Bench and approved when these matters were last debated in this House. What he said in relation to direct grant schools was that he wanted to see them taking their full place in a reformed system of publicly provided education.

  COMMONWEALTH CONTRACTS (PREFERENCE)
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister what consultations he has had with other Commonwealth Prime Ministers regarding his proposal for a specific preference in awarding contracts to Great Britain from the Commonwealth; and what arrangements have been made for introducing such a scheme.
  The Prime Minister: This matter was fully discussed at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Meeting last July and, following their instructions, was further examined at the meeting of Commonwealth trade officials in December, and will be an important point for discussion at the conference of Commonwealth Trade Ministers which is now being arranged.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Can the Prime Minister tell us when the Commonwealth Trade Ministers' meeting is now to take place? Can he tell us, in view of the fact that he has still made no progress with this scheme, what other ideas he has for reversing the decline in progress in Commonwealth trade with this country in the last year?
  The Prime Minister: I agree about the urgency of this matter. I have previously given the appalling figures, and will not repeat them, of the failure to meet the
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  expanding Commonwealth's requirements over the past few years. The final date has not yet been settled, but we are in touch with other Commonwealth Trade Ministers and as soon as it is possible we will announce it to the House.

  MOSCOW (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Prime Minister which Ministerial colleagues and officials will be accompanying him in Moscow.
  The Prime Minister: On present plans I will be accompanied by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Technology and the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Lord Chalfont, the Secretary of the Cabinet and other appropriate advisers.
  Mr. Griffiths: Is the Prime Minister again taking with him his personal television adviser, and is the Minister of Technology going to give this adviser some technical assistance?
  The Prime Minister: I do not in fact have a personal television adviser. [An HON. MEMBER: "You need one."] I probably do need one, but I prefer to get along as best I can relying on our policy and the other things we have to say, instead of relying on adventitious aids, large sums of money, grooming and image to cover up the fact that another party has no image.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is it customary for Ministers to announce the names of officials who accompany them when they go abroad? Has that ever been done before?
  The Prime Minister: It has, of course, been known before, but I think that it is perfectly appropriate to say, as I said, "The Secretary of the Cabinet and other appropriate advisers".
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Would it not be advisable for the Prime Minister to take with him the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance?
  The Prime Minister: No, I do not think so. While the hon. Gentleman is reviving this hoary joke, which hon. Members opposite put round last summer just because the Government wanted to

  209
  do anything to get peace in Vietnam, I would simply say that we shall be debating Vietnam and other parts of South-East Asia later today and, if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I may have something to say on that subject.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the recent Russian successes in technology, resulting in an advance towards landing man on the moon, is it not possible that our Minister of Technology could learn a lot from a Communist society?
  The Prime Minister: On previous occasions when I went to the Soviet Union I had the chance of talking with their technological Ministers and seeing something of what they were doing. They have invited my right hon. Friend for a visit and it was thought convenient that these two visits should be at the same time. I shall, however, on this occasion not have the great advantage that a predecessor of mine had of having a book written about his visit by my hon. Friend.

HOME CIVIL SERVICE (COMMITTEE)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement.
In a reply to the Estimates Committee, published today, the Government accept the recommendation that a committee should be appointed to examine the structure, recruitment and management, including training, of the Home Civil Service.
I am glad to say that Lord Fulton has agreed to be chairman of this committee. I am circulating the names of the other members in the OFFICIAL REPORT. They include the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle), my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams), as well as distinguished representatives of industry, the universities and the public service.
There have been so many changes both in the demands placed on the Civil Service and in the educational organisation of the country that the Government believe that the time has come to ensure that the Service is properly equipped for its rôle in the modern State. The very broad terms of reference will require a fundamental and wide-ranging inquiry in the
210
tradition of the great inquiries of the past, such as Northcote-Trevelyan in 1853 and the Tomlin Commission in 1931. This is a strong committee, and I hope that its recommendations will enable the Civil Service to meet the country's needs for many years to come.
At the outset, however, I should like to make two points about the scope of the committee's inquiry. First, the decision to set up this committee does not mean that the Civil Service has been found lacking in any way by the Government in its current operations. On the contrary, it is the experience of Ministers—and I think that right hon. Members opposite would wish to join me in this—that the Service meets the demands put on it with flexibility and enterprise.
Secondly, the Government's willingness to consider changes in the Civil Service does not imply any intention on their part to alter the basic relationship between Ministers and civil servants. Civil servants, however eminent, remain the confidential advisers of Ministers, who alone are answerable to Parliament for policy; and we do not envisage any change in this fundamental feature of our parliamentary system of democracy.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that we recognise that this committee will be carrying out very important work indeed? I join him in what he has said about the current work of the Civil Service as a whole, to which we would certainly pay tribute. May I express my agreement with the stipulations the Prime Minister made about the scope of the committee's inquiry.
May I ask the Prime Minister one question? Will it be within the scope of the committee's work to examine the actual methods of work of the Civil Service and the functioning of the Civil Service as such, to see whether it is now suitable for dealing with the complicated structure of our society which has developed in the second half of the twentieth century?
The Prime Minister: I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what he has said. It will certainly be within the terms of reference and competence of the committee to inquire into all aspects of the functioning of and recruitment for the Civil Service.

211
As to training, which is relevant to both of these, there is already a very important working party at work on this, which includes representatives of the staff associations and the management side, and the result of that committee's inquiry will be made available to the new committee to be presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Fulton.
Dr. Bray: Is the Prime Minister aware that this is a very welcome response to the recommendations of my colleagues on the Estimates Committee? Is he further aware that the House will wish Lord Fulton and his colleagues on the committee every success in the very important work that they are undertaking? Can the Prime Minister assure the House that the committee will have all the staff and research assistance that it needs to carry out the very fundamental task that it has been given?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said. I think that the Report of the Estimates Committee—my hon. Friend was chairman of the group that produced it—has been regarded as an extremely valuable contribution to the study of this subject. The factual examination was done in greater depth than almost any other inquiry for a very long time.
While not necessarily accepting all the conclusions—I want to make that clear; my hon. Friend would not expect me to accept all the conclusions—of the Report of the Estimates Committee, I am sure that it was felt on both sides of the House that the recommendation of a thorough inquiry of this kind was one that should be accepted. Certainly, the committee will have all the help, statistical and otherwise, that it needs.
Mr. Grimond: May I ask the Prime Minister three questions? First, do I understand that the Foreign Service and, indeed, the Commonwealth Service are excluded? If so, why is this, as they, too, would seem to have problems as much as any other part of the Civil Service, particularly over commercial representation overseas?
Secondly, will this committee be empowered to examine the possibility of exchanges between the universities and business and the Civil Service and, indeed,
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the relationship of the Civil Service to business in general?
Thirdly, will there be anyone on the committee with experience of administration in Scotland? The Scottish Office presents very peculiar problems. It covers a very wide range of subjects, and the Scottish universities are traditionally one of the great recruiting grounds for the public service. I know that the chairman of the committee is in origin a Scotsman. Has anyone else on the committee experience of Scottish conditions?
The Prime Minister: The Foreign and Diplomatic Services were exhaustively examined by the committee presided over by Lord Plowden, of which some right hon. and hon. Members were members, three or four years ago, and most of the recommendations of that committee are now being applied, particularly on the point the right hon. Gentleman mentioned of the strengthening of the commercial side of the Foreign and Commonwealth Services. I would not exclude consideration being given to a further and more limited inquiry, perhaps on the question of recruitment, when the inquiry into the Home Civil Service has got a little further.
Secondly, it will certainly be right—I think necessarily—for the committee to inquire into the question of exchanges between the Civil Service and the universities, between the Civil Service and business, and between the Civil Service and local government. Indeed, such exchanges are already happening to an increasing degree in an experimental way.
As to whether any of the distinguished administrators and others on the committee have had actual administrative Civil Service experience in Scotland, I should like notice of that question to see whether the right hon. Gentleman's point, which is a very good one, is covered.
Mr. Duffy: Will not the Prime Minister agree that, if we are to get a more technically disposed Civil Service, a more interventionist civil servant capable of manning the new planning machinery, it is most desirable that future recruitment be drawn as widely as possible from society and, in its higher reaches, drawn from all the universities?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. This was a point to which the Estimates Committee attached very great importance.

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I am bound to say that in the past 18 months we have had very considerable success in attracting, both from universities and from industry, highly suitable persons for helping with the planning and with the scientific and technological work, and I think that what we have learned in this direction will be useful to the committee.
With regard to recruitment from a wider section of industry, as the Estimates Committee's Report makes clear, there has been the greatest possible effort on the part of all concerned to widen the field of recruiting, not only between universities, but also from non-university applicants. As the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been very active in meeting vice-chancellors from all over the country to try to get more graduates from universities other than the traditional sources of supply to enter the Foreign Service.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: In view of the very great importance of ensuring that Government Departments themselves are kept in the closest possible touch with scientific thinking and developments in technology, will the Prime Minister give an assurance that the terms of reference of the committee will allow it to consider the possibility of not only secondment but part-time weekly service by scientists and technologists within Government Departments on a continuing basis?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, this is very important—and, may I add, between the universities as well as business or other scientific organisations. This is happening at present, of course. For example, the Director-General—if I have his title aright; he may be the Controller—at the Ministry of Technology is a distinguished scientist who works part-time with the Atomic Energy Authority and part-time with the Ministry; and there are many others. But, certainly, this committee, not only through its terms of reference, but through its personnel, will be well fitted to inquire into the point made by the hon. Gentleman.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.
Dame Irene Ward: May I ask the Prime Minister—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I sympathise with the hon. Lady, but I must protect the important business ahead of us.
Following is the composition of the Committee:
Chairman

Lord Fulton, Vice-Chancellor, University of Sussex.

Members

Sir Philip Allen, K.C.B., Second Secretary, H. M. Treasury.

Mr. W.C Anderson, General Secretary, National and Local Government Officer's Association

Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Boyle, M.P., Member of Parliament for Birmingham, Handsworth.

Sir William Cook, C.B., F.R.S., Deputy Chief Scientific Adviser, Ministry of Defence.

Sir James Dunnett, K.C.B., Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Labour.

Mr. Norman Hunt, Fellow of Exeter College, Oxford.

Sir Norman Kipping, K.B.E., formerly Director General of the Federation of British Industry, now Senior Consultant on International Trade, Confederation of British Industries.

Mr. Robert Neild, Economic Adviser to the Treasury.

Professor Lord Simey, Charles Booth Professor of Social Science, University of Liverpool.

Mr. John Wall, O.B.E., Managing Director, Electrical and Musical Industries Ltd.

Mrs. Shirley Williams, M.P., Member of Parliament for Hitchin.

PUBLIC INVESTMENT AND EXPENDITURE
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement.
On 27th July last, I announced the deferment of certain programmes affecting public investment and expenditure. These measures have achieved their purpose. In particular, the rate of expenditure on capital projects has been appreciably reduced. I estimate that, in the six months since the arrangements were announced, about £200 million worth of capital projects have been deferred for six months. I am grateful to all those who have made the result possible. There can be no doubt that this deferment has reduced the pressure of demand below the excessively high level which it would otherwise have reached, has reduced the load on the building industry, and has contributed to the improvement in our balance of payments.

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The Government now propose to replace the deferment of individual projects by the more normal system of control by expenditure limits. Under the new arrangements, revised annual expenditure limits are being fixed in such a way that they will in general be no greater than they would have been under the deferment arrangements. But Departments will now be free to reprogramme their investment. The limits within which Government Departments will work will apply both to their own spending and in their control of capital expenditure programmes by local authorities. As before, housing, schools, hospitals, and projects in development districts will be unaffected. Estimates for 1966–67 are being prepared on this basis.
Circulars will be sent to local authorities, as necessary, notifying them of the new arrangements. Loan sanction and grants for miscellaneous local authority projects outside the main programmes will continue to be given only for projects which are urgently required.
Mr. Iain Macleod: The Chancellor will realise that this is a grave statement. Perhaps I may now give notice to the Leader of the House that we shall wish, through the usual channels, to discuss a mutually convenient time for a general economic debate.
The Chancellor will recognise that this is, in effect, his fourth Budget. It is beyond argument that it arises out of the failure of the incomes policy, and my first question is to ask whether we are to see—or whether it has been dropped—the Bill in relation to the early warning system.
Secondly,—I could pick many examples, but I take the single one of roads, because I hope that the House understands that we are now to continue indefinitely at the lower level—will the Chancellor tell us how he can square this defiance of both pre- and post-election promises with curtailment of the vital investment in roads?
The third point is one of definition but of great importance. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that housing, schools, hospitals, and projects in development districts will be unaffected. When he speaks of development districts,
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does the right hon. Gentleman use that term in the sense of those development districts as existed on 27th July, or is he contemplating the much larger development areas which have recently been introduced?
Finally, the right hon. Gentleman justifies this and his other three Budgets on the effect on the balance of payments. He has had the terms of trade very much in his favour. He will now know the figures for 1965. Has he achieved his target of halving the 1964 deficit?
Mr. Callaghan: If I may take those questions in reverse order, I do not yet know the final figures for 1965; but it looks as though we shall be pretty well on target to clear off the deficit by the end of 1966, as we are determined to do. [Laughter.] I am sure that the whole House will welcome this; and I am sure, also, that, if hon. Members opposite have any alternative proposals for getting rid of the deficit, they will develop them in the economic debate.
No doubt, we shall hear what part, in their view, the "failure" of the incomes policy, as they constantly call it, would play in their calculations. No doubt, we shall hear what measures they would propose to take and whether they would follow an incomes policy or not.
Speaking for myself—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am answering questions—I hope very much that we shall get a clear statement of policy from the Opposition on where they stand on the problem of how the country is to overcome its balance of payments deficit.
The development districts referred to are those in existence on 27th July. There are no new development areas yet in existence. They have to be put on the Statute Book.
On roads, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will make a statement in answer to a Question within the next day or two, I think, and detailed questions can be put to her. I hope that we shall have a clear indication from the Opposition where—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Perhaps I am hoping for too much; I am ready to admit that. I hope that we shall have from them a clear statement of where they stand in relation to these problems. Or do they intend to go on being in favour of everything in general and nothing in particular?
Mr. Mendelson: Everyone will agree that the development districts should receive special treatment, but will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are many other districts in which essential building, for instance, in the provision of libraries and similar services, is necessary but has been delayed? As he is succeeding in solving the balance of payments problem, to our great satisfaction, will my right hon. Friend as quickly as possible encourage local authorities in these other areas to go ahead with their public building?
Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir. I think that we must regard this as a very unwelcome deferment, but I believe that the country is behind the Government in wanting to be solvent again. Certainly, the ratepayers do not want unnecessary expenditure. What we are doing through these programmes is relating the demands which are being made on our resources to our capacity to meet them; and this is why the Government continue to get the support of the people.
Mr. William Clark: The right hon. Gentleman says that, in six months, £200 million worth have been put off and that deferment will be continued more or less indefinitely. Does this mean that the Government have cut back the capital investment programme by £400 million? In view of the statement on 27th July, is it not incumbent on the Government either to renew the deferment or postpone it or cancel it? Was there any reason for not making this statement on 27th January, which happened to be the date of the Hull by-election? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is the longest and severest cut-back in capital expenditure since the war?
Mr. Callaghan: I am glad the hon. Gentleman asked me that because, perhaps, he did not hear what I said. I told the House that £200 million worth of capital projects had been deferred. Capital projects do not necessarily all get completed in one financial year. Therefore, the total effect of the deferment is to defer, for a period of six months, total projects worth £200 million. But that is not to say that £200 million worth of work would have been done in 1966. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman understands that. It is worth about £40 million
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in the current year, 1965–66, and about £60 million in the next financial year.
I realise the anxiety of right hon. and hon. Members opposite about by-elections. I can only tell them that this replacement of the old system of deferment by individual projects by an overall limitation on the level of expenditure is a matter of mechanics. If this statement had been ready before the Hull by-election, it would have been made. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I dare say that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen have not forgotten that there will soon be another by-election, at Falmouth and Camborne, when we shall beat them again.
Mr. Bagier: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side of the House at least are interested in solving the balance of payments crisis? Will he recall that, in his efforts six months ago, he specifically exempted the development districts? That exemption was appreciated and it is further appreciated that he is exempting them once again. He has done this in a vastly different context—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot make a speech at this stage.
Mr. Callaghan: The controls that are being applied are more selective than have been applied on previous occasions. That is why they are being felt in a more gentle way throughout the country. Surely this is something that the House as a whole would welcome. I feel, so far from its being a source of reproach—although, no doubt, it may be made a party point in the country that these statements constitute a continuous series of Budgets—in fact this continuous control of the economy by means of certain regular moves is a far better way of dealing with our economic affairs than one annual Budget in which one lurches violently from one direction to another.
Mr. Iain Macleod: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he has not answered any of the questions I put? Is he aware that, with the exception of what he has said about development districts, his statement is much worse than at first appeared? May I have a definite answer to my questions? Does he know, and, if so, will he tell us, when we may expect to see the Bill relating to the early warning system for the incomes policy?
Mr. Callaghan: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman could have listened to his own questions. I answered all of them. He knows as well as I do that the question of the introduction of Bills is a matter for answer on Thursdays by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. As yet, I am not Leader of the House, but perhaps there will come an occasion when my right hon. Friend will be Chancellor and he will be put in a similar position.
Mr. Snow: Will my right hon. Friend carefully read the proceedings on the Adjournment Motion last night, when the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) received a trouncing at the hands—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not in order to refer to proceedings in the current Session of Parliament in questions.
Mr. Lubbock: How does the Chancellor reconcile his statement that the capital expenditure restrictions have achieved their purpose with the later passage that the revised expenditure limits are no greater than they would have been under the deferment arrangements? Will he bear in mind that it is not only the development districts themselves but the communications with them that are important?
Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that many people will be extremely anxious about the continued restrictions on the road programme? Can he say whether the local authority home loans scheme can now be reintroduced and from what date these changes will become effective?
Mr. Callaghan: My measures of last July have achieved their effect because they have reduced the load on the economy. They have been successful to that extent. What I am now saying is that the continuing load on the economy is such that it is desirable to carry it on at that level, instead of letting the steam build up again. Hence the measures I have just announced and those announced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
The hon. Gentleman must make up his mind. Does he want us to go through the same experience as the country had in
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1963–64, or does he want the economy to remain on an even keel? The Government believe that that is the better way of doing it.
The position regarding home loans is unchanged. What I said on 27th July continues in force. Local authorities will be asked to maintain their home loans at an average rate of £130 million per annum. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is now working out with them the best means and the right basis on which loans shall be made, for example, in relation to building society efforts as well. The hon. Gentleman will, therefore, see that there will be a very substantial home loans effort by local authorities, to a total of £130 million.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Wainwright.
Mr. Callaghan: What the hon. Gentleman—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I called Mr. Wainwright.
Mr. Wainwright: When my right hon. Friend was preparing his statement, did he take note of the undue shortage of teachers throughout the country? Will he bear in mind that there is also a shortage of the larger type of day teachers' training colleges? Will he consider replacing Swinton Day Teacher Training College with a new one, so that the building can return to the purpose for which it was built—as a comprehensive school?
Mr. Callaghan: I make it clear that the annual growth of public expenditure of 4¼per cent. at constant prices is a heavy load on the economy. Priorities have been decided for education, housing, hospitals and roads. We have at least an orderly programme. I am sure that my hon. Friend can put down detailed Questions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, who will no doubt be able to deal with individual cases. This is a question of sorting out the priorities and the Government have done it in a proper way. I am confident that this is the best way to tackle the problem.
Mr. Heath: When the right hon. Gentleman looks back over the last 14 months of continuing measures of restriction, many of which are damaging to

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roads, technical education, universities, and so on, and so many of which have been imposed because, as the leader in today's issue of The Times rightly says, he and the Government always fail to carry conviction, does he ever look back to the Government's White Paper of 26th October, 1964, when they surveyed the whole situation on coming into office? If he does, he will recall that paragraph 7 said, of the domestic situation, that
"…there is no undue pressure on resources calling for action."
Is he aware that many of these measures would not have been necessary if the Government had not succeeded in creating a boom together with stagnant production?
Mr. Callaghan: Yes, I often look back on those early days; and I often reflect how different things would have been if we had not had a balance of payments deficit of the size left us. I would say that the statement in the White Paper to which the right hon. Gentleman referred was made within 10 days of our coming into office and that we probably underestimated at that time the degree of pressure on the economy—I wish that you would keep quiet.
Mr. Speaker: The Chancellor of the Exchequer must not ask Mr. Speaker to keep quiet.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Callaghan: Of course I withdraw, but I do not think that Mr. Speaker was under any misapprehension, or that he believed that my remark was intended for him.
I also wonder how the right hon. Gentleman would both control the economy and, at the same time, add to our financial burdens by a substantial transfer of rates to the Exchequer and cut in taxation.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We have a very important debate ahead and I must protect the business of the House.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Question proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  4.0 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: I wish to make a few remarks on the Second Reading. I know that there are different practices which apply to the discussion of a Second Reading of a Consolidated Fund Bill. Sometimes, the whole of the discussion is devoted to the opinions of back benchers and sometimes it is arranged that the Second Reading should be taken formally and that there should then be a debate on a Motion. At different times, these or other procedures are most convenient to the House.
  However, it has always been acknowledged on both sides of the House and by Leaders of the House of all parties that none of these arrangements can deprive the House as a whole of its rights. It is, therefore, perfectly proper for an hon. Member to do what I seek to do, which is to express views on this Second Reading.
  There are two other reasons why I should do so. First, it has not been very clear from the statements made by the Opposition which aspect of South-East Asian affairs they wish to discuss. When my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey), a few days ago, asked whether the Opposition were retreating from their proposal to discuss the situation in Vietnam, there was considerable laughter on the Opposition side of the House. I am not sure what it implied. Possibly it implied that they were very interested in—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) so early, but he can discuss on the Second Reading of the Bill only the items covered by the Supplementary Estimates for which the Bill provides the money. If he turns to pages 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 of the Civil Estimates, he will find what overseas matters he can raise in this debate.
  Mr. Foot: I certainly bow to your Ruling at once, Mr. Speaker, but I understand that one of the Estimates covered is the Sub-Committee on Defence and Overseas Affairs. That is the matter which I wish to discuss. I would have thought that, following precedent and as indicated under the items covered, I would be fully in order in discussing the main matter which I wish to discuss, which is the situation in Vietnam.
  Mr. Speaker: I understand that defence is not in the Supplementary Estimates on which the Bill is based. The hon. Gentleman would be out of order in discussing Vietnam.
  Mr. Foot: If that is your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, of course I must bow to it, but I ask you to consider whether, in fact, that is the case, because there is a reference to the Sub-Committee on Defence and Overseas Affairs which would fully cover the matter which I wish to discuss.
  I thought that it would certainly be for the convenience of the House, and convenient to myself, if we could discuss this situation before coming to the general debate which the Opposition wish to raise. Not only do I claim that the subject is covered by that item, but there have been several occasions on which fairly wide latitude has been allowed by the Chair in debates on Second Readings of Consolidated Fund Bills.
  Mr. Speaker: Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. There is an occasion in Parliamentary time when the very wide debate which the hon. Gentleman has in mind can take place. That does not apply to this particular Consolidated Fund Bill, which is merely concerned with the money to be found for the Civil Estimates, the Supplementary Estimates, for 1965–66, a copy of which the hon. Gentleman no doubt has with him. The subject of Vietnam does not come under that.
  Mr. Foot: My understanding of the rules is that it would be perfectly proper for me to raise a wide debate on this subject, but it is certainly not my desire—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must take the advice of the Chair. He is a good Parliamentarian. He will be
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  out of order if he seeks to do what he is trying to do.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  Committee Tomorrow.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Edward Short.]

  SOUTH AND SOUTH-EAST ASIA
  4.6 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Heath: Having taken the Consolidated Fund Bill formally, the Opposition are giving the House an opportunity to discuss the affairs of Asia and, in particular, South and South-East Asia. The House will agree that this is not often possible. It has not been possible hitherto in this Session. I say straight away to the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) that we have no desire whatever to limit the debate, or to exclude South Vietnam or North Vietnam. Indeed, if the hon. Gentleman desires the opportunity to vote, it is possible for himself and his hon. Friends to vote on the Adjournment, as he well knows, when we will certainly put the right interpretation on it for him.
  Perhaps I can explain why we wanted a debate on South Asia and South-East Asia. It is because those countries present very great problems and some of my colleagues and I were able to visit them during the Recess. As a result, there are certain views and proposals which I would like to put to Her Majesty's Government, as well as to ask some questions of them. I will confine myself to the Indian sub-continent, to Malaysia and to Vietnam.
  I would like to tell the House the reasons why I personally wanted to go to Asia during the past Recess. First, when we were the Government I sometimes felt slightly guilty, or ashamed, that so often Commonwealth Prime Ministers and other Ministers came to this country, to London, but all too seldom we from this House went to the Commonwealth countries themselves. I personally wanted to try to redress that balance. I realise

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  full well the difficulties of hon. Members in this matter, but I think that we would all like to go to the countries of the Commonwealth much more often. Secondly, I wanted to discuss their problems with them on the spot. Thirdly, there were certain policies about trade, aid, defence, and Europe which I wanted to discuss with them.
  In addition to all this, there are certain themes which run through those countries of South and South-East Asia. First, there is the theme of conflict. There was the conflict between Pakistan and India, now happily brought to a conclusion and about which reconciliation has begun. There is the conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia in confrontation, now, fortunately, at a standstill. There is the conflict in Vietnam, a cruel and horrible war which is being waged with great fierceness and which every hon. Member would like to see brought to a conclusion at the earliest possible moment.
  The second theme is that of economic development, the need for aid and technical assistance. In some countries this theme is showing obvious progress, but in others one feels absolutely daunted by the enormous problems. I would like to say to the Prime Minister that throughout this part of Asia I found great disappointment that so little was emerging from the Kennedy Round and from the operations of U.N.C.T.A.D. as a result of the conference in Geneva in 1964. We had a brief exchange about this this afternoon at Question Time and I believe that there is not only a need but a genuine scope for British initiatives both in the Kennedy Round and in U.N.C.T.A.D. As far as the Kennedy Round is concerned, the amount of time remaining under the President of the United States' powers is now comparatively limited.
  There is, therefore, a degree of urgency about the problem, which we must heed. No longer should we be content with continuing to try to reach an overall 50 per cent. cut across the board as an ideal solution. The time has now come when, in conjunction with those who will support us, possibly in Europe, we should make up our minds to get the best settlement in the time which remains. This will undoubtedly also be of help to the developing countries. I would like to express my personal disappointment that the Government have put so little
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  pressure behind the activities of U.N.C.T.A.D. I would ask them to have a deliberate British initiative so as to try to produce results there.
  The third theme in Asia today is the shadow of China, which is hanging over the continent. The question is always what is the ultimate purpose of China as she develops her power in the modern world, and what policy should be pursued towards her, not only by the countries of Asia, but by the Western countries? Is her ultimate intention to have military domination over as much of Asia as is possible, or is she to continue helping with subversive action, either directly or through supporting other movements of that kind? Will China eventually pass through its present intense revolutionary phase and be prepared to come to some terms of co-existence with other countries and her neighbours in South-East Asia?
  In Asia, I found no unanimity of opinion about the answers to these questions. This is not surprising perhaps, because the whole of Asia is anxiously watching every move and carefully weighing every consideration to try to find the answer to these all-important questions. One thing is true, and that is that all of these countries believe that rapid economic development is their major safeguard against any subversive activity being successful in their own countries. This is the reason they attach so much importance to it and why I always have done so in the work we do in U.N.C.T.A.D. and elsewhere, and why we on this side of the House attach so much importance to this matter.
  There is one other general point that I would like to make. A visit to Asia makes one realise the immense scale of the problems facing the continent, and helps to put into perspective the sort of problems with which we are constantly dealing in this House, either in our domestic affairs or elsewhere. I suppose that it is broadly true to say that in the late 1940s and early 1950s we were mainly concerned with Asia. For the rest of the 1950s and 1960s we have been almost entirely absorbed with Africa.
  If one looks at the comparison, one sees that in Africa there is a total population of 300 million, with Commonwealth countries having just over 100

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  million, whereas in Asia there is a population of 750 million, with a Commonwealth population of 570 million to 600 million. When one looks at the comparable scale of economic development one realises the immense problems facing Asia. I hope that this will help us to get the great continents into the right perspective and help us in deciding our policies in allocating reserves to them.
  In Pakistan, one finds an excellent example of aid being used in a most worth-while fashion. It is probably one of the best countries for economic development. As a result of this development there has been, until the conflict came, a great deal of liberalisation. Aid has been well justified in Pakistan, which is rightfully proud of creating a new capital of Islamabad. The overseas departments are to be congratulated on the action which they have taken in establishing new British headquarters. Everyone in Rawalpindi and Pakistan will be glad when the "prefabs" disappear and permanent building takes its place. That is just a small point. In Pakistan, as in India, there is the dominating problem of Kashmir.
  The other day the Prime Minister said at the end of an exchange that I hoped to settle the problem of Kashmir during my visit. They were rather foolish words. Anyone who has been a member of a Government for 13 years, and seen the problem of Kashmir the whole time, cannot possibly hope to make any but the most modest contribution in any discussion about it, particularly after a conflict such as that between Pakistan and India.
  Above all, time is needed before anyone can hope to tackle the real hard core of the problem of Kashmir. I found that President Ayub was sincere and determined in his attempt at least to start progress towards a settlement at Tashkent, and I believe that I was able to convey that to Mr. Shashtri. I can tell the Prime Minister that this was on the lines of the Rann of Kutch settlement, in which he took a part. It was to my regret that I found in Delhi that that settlement had already gone sour. There are many in Pakistan who would be prepared to take the Rann of Kutch settlement as a model or basis for trying to reach a settlement in Kashmir. Now, as a result of the Rann of Kutch being followed by the conflict, I do not believe that there is
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  much hope of that being accepted in India.
  I found that the Indians were preoccupied with the aftermath of the conflict. As I said the other day, I found to my regret that the state of Anglo-Indian relations left much to be desired. The Prime Minister knows that the reason for that was his statement of 6th September, during the conflict. I greatly regret that this was reopened again in January as a result of the publication of the correspondence he had with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon (Mr. Francis Noel-Baker). It was commented upon again by the Prime Minister of India only yesterday.
  I do not know whether the House realises—although I suppose that one can only realise it when one has been there and seen for oneself as some hon. Members have—the intense feeling, which is not limited to the Government or to those in Delhi, but is found among the ordinary citizens, against Britain, over this incident and the tremendous pressure that there was, and still is in some quarters, for India to leave the Commonwealth.
  It is the responsibility of the Government to mend these fences and they must set about it seriously and earnestly and try to repair the damage which has been done. I hope that the Prime Minister will be able to assure us that this is his intention. As he knows, there have been other difficulties between our two countries over the past year. There has been the question of the submarines, and on that I would like to ask him what the position is now. There are other problems, such as the commercial arms sales. What is to happen to that as a result of the Tashkent settlement?
  There is also the position over the manufacture of British equipment in India under licence, for which some supplies were being withheld? It is understandable that a country which undertakes to manufacture British equipment should ask itself why it should go on doing so when it finds at a time of need that it is no longer able to use this equipment. This is a fundamental question from the point of view of British industry if we are to expand our industry in these countries. There is a major operation to be done to improve Anglo-Indian relations and I hope that we can all help in it.

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  The conciliation between Pakistan and India was started at Tashkent. The contribution which the late Indian Prime Minister made to that has been widely recognised. Alas, it led to his death. I had a long talk with him two days before he went to Tashkent. Little did I think that 10 days later I should be back in Delhi attending his funeral. The President of Pakistan has also made a major contribution to this settlement and that has not been so widely recognised in this country, or in the world. Soviet diplomacy displayed a skill which we have not seen for many years and that must be recognised.
  It was a worth-while settlement in that it meant that the cease-fire lines would be cleared, diplomatic relations started and economic affairs resumed, the last of which is important to this country because of the shipping and cargoes which involved a Lloyd's insurance of about £10 million. The agreement also led to the renewal of the non-aggression agreement in the United Nations. The renewal of contact will, we hope, reduce tension, but the main problem of Kashmir still remains.
  There are two conclusions which I should like to put before the House. First, I believe that as a result of this conflict, and afterwards, India has achieved a new unity and self-confidence which it previously lacked. This will lead to a great increase in its international influence, particularly among the developing nations, and in this country where we are trying to pursue economic policies which will help developing nations it becomes of great importance that we should be able to work with India in this field as well as with Pakistan.
  My second conclusion is that this has led for the first time, whether in imperial or Soviet history, to the extension of Russian influence over the Indian subcontinent. This will undoubtedly be a major factor in international affairs. When one turns to economic development in India and considers the scale of the problem of 450 million people with an income of only £27 a head, one is immediately confronted with this enormous and almost daunting problem of how to achieve growth in an economy of that size and poverty.
  I was delighted to find general agreement that the methods used for aid are
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  working well, but I also found agreement that the best help for an economy of this kind is joint ventures between the developed countries and India as a developing country. It is the industries and firms of this country and Western Europe which have the "know-how" and experience in management which can jointly operate with India as a developing country. There is some anxiety that the Corporation Tax, in its present form, will militate against this and I hope that ways can be found to deal with it, because I am sure that joint ventures hold out much greater hope of a speedy rate of growth than other forms of purely capital aid to industry.
  I hope that it will be possible for India to move, as Pakistan has done, towards economic liberalisation in order to get a more rapid rate of growth. It may be that the new Finance Minister will be able to encourage that. I hope, too, that American aid can soon be restored to India and Pakistan.
  The other dominating factor is the food shortage in 1966. As the House knows, the shortage may well amount to 13 or 14 million tons. The Indians are concentrating on new forms of agricultural development, but when one learns that large farms are being chosen for this but that the definition of a large farm is one of five acres one realises exactly the size of the problem. The United States has undertaken to help with the food shortage this year, and no doubt Canada and Australia will be able to lend their assistance.
  But the shipping for this will cost approximately £40 million sterling. The British Government have offered £7½ million, which is to be welcomed, but the Prime Minister will recognise that £6 million of it is being taken from the existing aid allocation for 1965–66. There is, therefore, only an additional £1½ million to help to deal internationally with the grave food problems facing India this year. I ask the Prime Minister to consider again, obviously in consultation with the Indian Government, whether this is the maximum help which can be given.
  There are four requirements: first, for shipping, with which we should be able to help domestically without there being a great burden on foreign exchange; secondly, port handling equipment—and

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  I have been informed that we have this equipment in our strategic stores and that the firms recommend that it would be suitable; thirdly, the provision of pesticides and fertilisers; and, fourthly, the provision of vitamins for those areas which suffer. All these are practical methods of help which the British Government could adopt without putting a burden on the overseas balance of payments.
  My last point about this part of Asia is this. I believe that any position we want to hold in India in relation to her people and in influencing her must be earned through gaining the confidence of the Indian people. There are some who believe that India can be influenced through external pressures. I do not believe that for one moment. India is a great democracy which has a very large part to play in influencing the developing countries. Britain has a very great interest not only in her history there, but in our industrial investment.
  But the old ties are now passing. This is becoming more and more apparent. Delhi is splendid. I must say, looking back, how strange it seems that during the 1920s and 1930s, when we had employment difficulties in this country, we could have gone on creating New Delhi. There is no doubt that modern India appreciates that; but, as I say, the ties are passing and, therefore, we must gain the confidence and interest of members of the younger generation who are being educated in the universities of the world and who are judging us on our merits. I believe that we must learn this lesson quickly and that we must take advantage of it if we are to maintain the confidence of Indians and to work jointly with them.
  I move further into South-East Asia and come to Malaysia and the confrontation. I am sorry that the Secretary of State for Defence was unable to go to Sabah and Sarawak on his way back from Australia and to see the situation there and the work which the Armed Forces have done. I believe that they have done a splendid job. I doubt whether many hon. Members recognise that the length of frontier which the forces have been covering in the confrontation is the same distance as from here to Warsaw. The joint command is operating magnificently.
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  Some who had doubts about Malaysia playing a part would have had them removed on visiting the two Malaysian battalions which have been created with British officers and for which Malaysia has taken financial responsibility.
  It was interesting to see the vital part which the Gurkhas are playing once again. I remember that some sceptics, two or three years ago, thought that the time had come when the Gurkhas should no longer form part of the British forces. They have been repudiated. The Gurkhas have done a magnificent job in the task of dealing with the confrontation.
  Another point which I should like the Secretary of State for Defence to consider is this. We have undoubtedly concentrated, as we did in Malaya and Korea, on the qualities of the men being able to function on their own in this type of jungle warfare. They have done this immensely successfully. This, too, relates to the problem of Vietnam. But the equipment which is suitable for this type of warfare has been provided, to a very large extent, in its most modern and light forms, by the Australians and Americans. For some reason which I do not know, we in Britain have not developed the highly specialised and light equipment required for these operations. It will be worth while the Secretary of State, who did not have the opportunity to go to the area, looking into this matter. The confrontation is at a standstill, but we should be wise to maintain our forces in the area until there are signs that the Indonesians have finally decided to call it off. We should not expect a formal declaration of this. With a change in circumstances in Indonesia it may well be that it will come about quietly without any formal declaration and then we will be able to make the necessary adjustments in our forces.
  This country has always wanted good relations with Indonesia—there is no reason why we should not have them—and so do Malaysia and Singapore. There are good signs that relations between Malaysia and the Philippines and between Malaysia and Pakistan are improving. There is little support of the concept of MAPHILINDO between the three countries, but I believe that it might be possible to have a wider grouping than MAPHILINDO when confrontation ceases and that it would be advantageous

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  to these countries to have an economic and cultural grouping of the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and even, possibly, Burma, to which the visit of the deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia was not without significance. This would be a helpful development in that part of the world.
  I turn to economic development in Malaysia, which is vital because to the north in the jungle and out of the control of Thailand is the threat of further subversion. We should not close our eyes to that fact. But it is obvious that Sabah and Sarawak require economic development, and I hope that the Malaysian Government will be able to provide this form of assistance.
  There is one point to which I hope, again, the Government will speedily turn their attention, which is the problem of the administrators in those two countries, because there is a danger of a drain of administrators there unless their terms of service are rapidly improved. I hope that the Government have taken steps there to see that this matter can be concluded speedily.
  As far as Singapore is concerned, again there is rapid economic development. Having been there five years ago, I was astonished to see the progress which had been made in housing, roads and particularly in the trading estate. When one considers in this country how the announcement of the new industrial estate of Thornby, in the North-East region, of 400 acres was welcomed as a major step forward, and sees in Singapore how they have created an industrial estate of 17,000 acres already containing a large amount of industry, one realises the scale on which a developing country is operating.
  Of course, there is one great disappointment to them, which is that the common market that they would have had with the rest of Malaysia and which gave the basis for an industrial development of 12 million people no longer exists. That is why I believe that the creation of a wider grouping in South-East Asia would be of economic assistance to them.
  As far as the base is concerned, the Secretary of State himself made a statement in Singapore, with which I very
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  largely agreed. There is no doubt that the British Government are wanted there and that they would like the base to remain. There is absolutely no doubt that there is a function for that base to perform. We have our defence treaties and our obligations, to which both sides of the House will adhere, so it is required as long as we can stay. The actual scale of the base can be discussed and, I believe, needs again to be re-examined.
  Contrary to what we were led to believe, a combined command did not lead to any reduction in the size of the headquarters in Singapore. It led to the expansion which seems almost inevitable as soon as one starts a process of streamlining. Again, the proportion of base personnel as against those who are active needs looking at. Nevertheless, it serves its purpose, and relations are absolutely excellent.
  To come to the problem of Vietnam, which some hon. Members are waiting for rather impatiently, I would like to discuss, first, the situation there. I do not wish to go over past history. There seem to be two matters of importance. The first is the situation there today, and the second is the question of negotiation and reconstruction. It is to those two points that I would particularly devote my remarks.
  No one here can doubt that the Vietnam war is a terrible war. What is more, it is a war on an enormous scale. With 600,000 South Vietnamese fully under arms, 200,000 Vietcong fully under arms, nearly 200,000 Americans and what is sometimes estimated to be 27 North Vietnamese battalions under arms there, it is an enormous scale of modern warfare. It is a situation in which there are great military problems as well as civil ones. I confess that I had not recognised the extent to which the Vietcong covered the country outside the towns and the way in which the towns are themselves cut off.
  There is no doubt that, far from the Vietcong being something of purely a guerrilla organisation, it is a most highly organised military organisation, extremely well-equipped, from the captured arms that I saw of Chinese manufacture, copies of Soviet weapons, and fully equipped with a full-scale modern hospital and every modern form of medicine.
  Mr. John Rankin: Did not the right hon. Gentleman also see American arms?
  Mr. Heath: Yes. I am trying to give the House the benefit of what I saw, to describe one particular aspect of it. No doubt the hon. Gentleman can make his own point if he is fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.
  What is the conclusion about this? First, from the installations which I saw, from the new ports, the new airfields and from the scale of American operations, the United States is determined to see the matter through. I have no doubt about that whatever. It is a conclusion of vital importance as far as the civil population is concerned. There is every evidence, furthermore, that it will be a long war. I do not think that anyone in the House should try to persuade himself that there will be a speedy end to it; and that, also, is of great importance, when considering the policy that we should pursue.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to clarify one point? He said that he did not realise that the Vietcong had such control in the countryside. Would he indicate what conclusion he draws from that? Would he not agree that it indicates the very point which has been stressed by hon. Members on this side so often, that the war in Vietnam is basically a civil war and that the Vietcong has the support of the overwhelming mass of the peasant population?
  Mr. Heath: I would not agree entirely with what the hon. Gentleman has said.
  No one has ever denied that it is a civil war and that South Vietnamese are fighting each other. No one can deny, either, that there is very large-scale intervention from North Vietnam. But the areas controlled by the Vietcong are controlled against the will of the people who live there. They have been terrorised by the activities of the Vietcong, and when one sees the number of heads of villages and chieftains who have been cruelly tortured and assassinated, one realises that there is military domination of those areas. It only illustrates, above all, the extraordinarily cruel and brutal nature of the war; and most civil wars are of that kind.
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  My third conclusion on this point is that if there is to be a successful war against the Vietcong by the United States, the United States has to develop still further not only the weapons, equipment and the scale of fire power, but also the techniques of fighting in jungle such as one sees in Vietnam and the techniques that we have had to master in the past in Malaya and in Sabah and Sarawak today.
  That is the conclusion that I would put to the House and it leads also to my conclusion that it will be a long struggle.
  I now want to turn to the question of reconstruction, because that is of immense importance.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word about negotiations?
  Mr. Heath: I shall be coming to that subject.
  It is often said that the main purpose at the moment must be to gain the confidence of the people in that country, and the hon. Gentleman was hinting at that himself. That is undoubtedly true, but the problem of gaining the confidence of the people is not as it is so often conceived to be, the material one, of providing roads, schools, or a better standard of living.
  The fundamental problem is that of providing security. Until there is security, none of those people can live any sort of reasonable life at all, and it is only with security, when they are not being terrified, that they can embark on reconstruction.
  Mr. Heffer: By American bombing?
  Mr. Heath: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, this is a serious debate. I will come to the question of bombing in a moment.
  There is training going on at the moment to help reconstruction, and that ought to be recognised. But, at the same time, it is quite obvious that to replace a machinery of government which has been destroyed over a large part of the country is no easy matter. It takes a considerable amount of time. Where security is provided and where the machinery of government is restored, then, in Vietnam, they can move on to the fundamental necessities of life—the farm, the fertiliser,

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  the house, the school and the other things which follow.
  Turning to negotiations, I believe—and I think that the Government share this view—from the discussions that I had while in Vietnam and with Mr. Harriman, in New Delhi, that the President of the United States is desperately sincere in his attempts to bring about negotiations. I have no doubt about that whatever. When one examines the 14 points which he has put forward, I believe one sees that they cover the whole ground, and are reasonable. The President himself has said that if they are prepared to enter into negotiations there can be no difficulties about the Vietcong. I believe that the Vietcong must take part in a conference of this kind. When we had the problem of Laos, the Pathet Lao took part in a conference under my right hon. Friend who was then Foreign Secretary. What is more, I have no doubt that there is a problem, but I do not believe that this is a reason for rejecting the President's 14 points, or for rejecting the opportunity to negotiate.
  I also do not believe that the points put forward by the North Vietnamese can at this moment be described as reasonable. Indeed—no doubt the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary will be able to tell us—I believe the last point made by Ho Chi Minh to be entirely unreasonable for any form of negotiation when he says, in a message through Her Majesty's Ambassador to the Government:
  "If the United States really wants peace it must recognise the South Vietnam National Front for Liberation as the sole genuine representative of the people of South Vietnam."
  I do not believe that that can be taken by sensible and reasonable people throughout the world as being a reasonable negotiating position. I do not therefore believe that one can take that attitude towards the North Vietnamese.
  My conclusion here is that I do not think we shall see a reaction from the North Vietnamese, or from the Vietcong, to offers for negotiation which will bring them to the conference table until they are convinced that they are not going to win the present military struggle. I believe that this is a fundamental point, and I can understand it, having been there. I can understand that the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese believe that
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  they will win. I can understand, also, the importance of the South Vietnamese and the Americans convincing them both from the military and from the civil angle that they will see this through. I believe that when that conviction is reached we shall have a similar position to the one in Laos, and we may then get a negotiation. I further believe that the 14 points, including the point about the Vietcong, will enable a proper negotiation to take place; and that, after all, is the same position as we had on Laos.
  I propose to deal next with the question of bombing. I deplore bombing as much as anybody does in this House, and I believe that any bombing should be devoted to the military targets themselves. I believe, furthermore, that when one is waging jungle war any military commander has to ask himself specifically, "Is there a deliberate return for the use of this type of weapon?", and I believe that the American commanders are asking themselves that question the whole time. The bombing is under the tighest form of military control, and under control from Washington. I have no doubt about that, also.
  But the fact has also to be faced that when one has a considerable period of time, with an offer of negotiation which is not accepted, and one knows that there is evidence all the time that the build-up on the other side is continuing and being used to try to out-distance the build-up in South Vietnam, no military commander, and no Government, in that situation, can ignore it unless they are prepared to withdraw from the country, and this, I think, therefore governs the considerations which have to be borne in mind in this House.
  On the question of negotiations in the whole of this situation, what I believe is important is that the British Government should keep open the channel with the Soviet Government so that when the moment arises the two co-chairmen can bring about a conference round the table in which all can take part. I believe that to be essential, and I hope, therefore, that when the Prime Minister goes to Moscow he will devote his energies to trying to improve the climate there between our two countries to ensure that this action will be possible when the time comes.

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  As I said at the beginning, one of the overriding questions is: what are the intentions of China? In the countries which I visited there was probably a general feeling that China did not wish to enter on a campaign for the military domination of Asia. This was not accepted everywhere, but I think that it was in many places. They believe that China will support subversion wherever it is to be found, and in some cases encourage it. If one looks quite impartially at the situation in Vietnam, is not China already achieving a considerable amount, without expense to herself, except in the provision of arms, by the struggle which is going on against the United States?
  That supports the thesis which many people put to me in South-East Asia, but I must add that if the United States were to withdraw from this conflict, I have no doubt, and neither have any of the countries in Asia, whether they are neutral, or are supporting the West, that subversion would then spread, and spread widely and rapidly into their countries. There is no doubt about this; there is no doubt that it would affect Thailand, Malaya, and Malaysia, including Sarawak, so, from the point of view of this country, and of the West, this is a major consideration in the terrible conflict which is being waged in South Vietnam.
  There is, therefore, every argument all the time for taking every possible step to secure a negotiated settlement, and this should be the basis of British policy. I believe that that is the basis of American policy, and I am certain that the time will come, even though it is not now, when the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong will be prepared to negotiate round the conference table.
  Finally, standing back and considering the further problem of the development of China as an atomic Power, Asia asks, "How can this Power be contained? What is to be China's relationship with other countries?". This poses a major problem for us. The admission of China to the United Nations is all-important in this context in an attempt to secure her signature to the Test Ban Treaty, and, therefore, what becomes even more fundamental is that there should be a balance to contain China during this
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  period, which the Western countries can provide.
  I have tried to put before the House some of the impressions which I have gained of the problems of Asia, the scale and intensity with which they face those countries, and, indeed, face us in the West. I have tried to put forward as best I could what I think are reasonable and modest conclusions about the problems which face us. The reasons I have given, and the survey I have made, show why Asia today poses the greatest series of problems of any continent in the world. I believe that that is the reason why today we in the House should be glad to give them the fullest consideration.
  4.48 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): The right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) has given the House an interesting account not only of his recent travels in South and South-East Asia, but also some of the lessons which he drew from them, and for this the House is indebted to him, because his tour, and, I think, this debate, too, recognises one of the really fundamental facts of our times, which is that this House, and, indeed, the country, will probably have to give increasing attention to the problems of Asia and of the Far East.
  I do not think that anything would please this side of the House more than if our friends in Europe were increasingly to join us and our partners in the Commonwealth and in the United States in meeting the great needs of this area. Whether one is thinking in defence terms, or in terms of human aid—and the right hon. Gentleman stressed the need for increasing aid—it is certainly the case that we are bearing very much more than our real share of the burden if one looks at the relationship between the advanced European powers and the advanced Atlantic powers, and the needs of Asia.
  If, during the two decades since the war, the main arguments on defence and security, and the main preoccupations of this House, have been on Europe and the Atlantic area, I do not think that it requires very much skill of prophecy to foresee that our debates over the next two decades, as I have said in a number of these debates, will be weighted very much more heavily with the great problems of Asia and the Indo-Pacific area.

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  It is this problem which has run right through and immensely complicated the task which we have had in carrying out the Defence Review, and, of course, it is these factors which set the context for this afternoon's debate. If there is to be any talk or arguments about top tables, this is what top table talk will be about for the next generation—particularly the Chinese nuclear explosion and the problems of the areas with which this debate deals.
  I want to deal with the three main issues referred to by the right hon. Gentleman—the Indian sub-continent, Malaysia and confrontation, and the problem of Vietnam. The right hon. Gentleman was right to stress that our relations with India are going through a very difficult phase. This was inevitable once the Kashmir issue passed from the stage in which it had been for the previous 18 years—a state of tension and incipient conflict—to one of military engagement. Neither our friends in Pakistan nor those in India, feeling as strongly as they did on this issue could understand our position of neutrality between them. Each would have expected to see our outright support on their side. Each felt that because we did not do so we supported the other side. This problem has been with us for many years.
  To my knowledge, Lord Attlee did his best to solve it in the early post-war years. On more than one occasion at their conferences Commonwealth Prime Ministers have tried to use their good offices—not in the full conferences but in private, with the facilities that these conferences provide—to eradicate this running sore in the political body of the Commonwealth. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite—successive Prime Ministers and successive Secretaries of State—did their best to bring the two parties to that stage of understanding and tolerance in which some solution would have been possible—and none more than the former Secretary of State for the Commonwealth, the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), who was very much involved in these problems and who, from time to time, managed to get into exactly the same position as that into which we have got because, through his attempting to be neutral, it was thought that he was always an enemy of the country in which he was.
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  The Leader of the Opposition referred to the potentially dangerous situation which had occurred earlier in the Rann of Kutch, which led to fighting. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State showed tremendous patience in trying to mediate between the two Governments—and I was involved in it myself—during the Commonwealth conference. But this British mediation was not merely welcomed by them; it was actively sought. They thought that this was the best possible and most appropriate mediation in this difficult area.
  For example, at Chequers and elsewhere, when I was arguing first with President Ayub and then with Mr. Shastri on the question who should go on particular patrol lines at particular times of day, and so on, over a piece of territory which was almost certainly by that time under water, or which would soon be inundated, one could be left in no doubt about the deep feelings raised by one side or the other that national territory and national security was at stake, and it was only by very considerable restraint and courage on the part of Mr. Shastri and President Ayub—by the utmost patience shown by them, and by us, and, perhaps I should say, by the grace of God—that we were able to prevent this conflict from escalating into a major war between the two countries.
  It was very apparent that over a period of time the spirit and the method used to end the danger in the Rann of Kutch might have been applied to a solution of the Kashmir problem, but the Rann of Kutch situation had not been fully dealt with by the time the Kashmir explosion occurred. I do not propose to go over all the difficulties that arose at the time and which were referred to in the statement of my noble Friend Lord Caradon when infiltration began, and our own statement on 6th September. Our concern as a Government was to do everything possible to bring to the earliest possible end this fighting, which by this time had rapidly spread, between two great Commonwealth countries with which we had the closest ties.
  There were a number of possible courses open to us. We could have offered mediation, after the fighting had started, but I do not think that this would have been as acceptable in the situation which had developed as in the Rann of Kutch.

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  Or, as some people in this country and elsewhere have suggested, we could have tried to activate a Commonwealth peace mission of heads of Government to bring the two parties together. Again, I do not think that it would have been successful, and it might have led to misunderstanding—the more so because both parties had at successive Commonwealth conferences made it clear that they felt that this was not a matter in which the outside Commonwealth countries could or should try to mediate, or arbitrate.
  The third course, which we followed, was to give the fullest support to the proposals made by the United Nations and by the Secretary-General of the United Nations. In this, we had strong support from other members of the Security Council. Indeed, it was the Security Council's demand for a cease-fire on 20th September which led directly to a cessation of hostilities. We felt that it was right to give our fullest support, and that of all our friends, to the United Nations in this desperate situation, because we took the view that once the Security Council was involved—and, as it later proved, successfully involved—it would have been dangerous to propose any competing course of action.
  There might have been a serious danger of crossing the wires and frustrating the very delicate operation in which the Secretary-General and the Security Council were involved. So, whatever our natural desires—and many of us on both sides of the House have been involved in India in the past—whatever agonies we went through at the time, and especially in feeling that there was something that we should be doing but were not able to do because of the danger of crossing the wires—and whatever the temptations—were decided that it was right to lend our full support to the United Nations and this was our position from that day right through.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Tashkent meeting. I am aware of the feeling that exists in some quarters that it would have been more appropriate if this important meeting could have taken place under British or Commonwealth auspices, but while the United Nations intervention was at such a critical and delicate stage we felt that it would be wrong for anybody in Britain or in
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  the Commonwealth to cut across what was being done by the Secretary-General for fear that we might, while the fighting was still on, have ended the ceasefire which was being planned The original Soviet invitation was issued before the Security Council met and passed the vitally important resolution of 20th September.
  All of us welcome, as the right hon. Gentleman did, the success achieved at the Tashkent meeting, and I want to support what the right hon. Gentleman said today and what he has said on other occasions. I join him particularly in the tribute that he paid to the statesmanship of the three participants in the meeting. It was not an easy agreement for Mr. Shastri and President Ayub to reach. It required a great deal of give and take on both sides before it was concluded. It was fortunate that we had there—that the world had there—two leaders of India and Pakistan gifted with the necessary vision and statemanship to effect an agreement which is so clearly in the interests of both countries. We applaud this and trust that it will be the beginning of happier days for the sub-continent despite the cruelty of fate which, as the right hon. Gentleman said, removed Mr. Shastri from our midst on the very day that the agreement was signed.
  The first results of the Tashkent agreement are still coming through; the military commanders have now met and have reached a detailed agreement providing for a withdrawal of their forces to the positions held before 5th August last year. The initial disengagement of their troops has already been effected, and withdrawals are scheduled to be completed all along the line before 25th February. The other provision of the Tashkent agreement, which provided for the return of the High Commissioners to their posts, has also been carried out. So there has been a very important step forward.
  But everyone has recognised that there is a long way to go before the bitter scars caused by the fighting are healed and the recent passions which have animated both sides for nearly 19 years can be overcome. But a start has been made, and President Ayub and Mrs. Indira Gandhi have now expressed their determination to promote better relations between their two countries. We shall do all we can to help both Governments in this.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Does not the Prime Minister agree that among the many factors that made the Tashkent agreement possible were the very careful preparations of the Soviet Union and the other interested parties before the meeting, and also the lack of publicity? Were not these very important reasons for success?
  The Prime Minister: I believe that they played a valuable part, although I would not say that there was much lack of publicity about this meeting. There was a great deal. There was very careful preparation—and there were dangerous moments—but, above all, what was responsible for this agreement was quite simply the high degree of statesmanship of all three participants. It was this which was responsible, much more than any detailed preparations; for the problems of the Tashkent meeting were not complicated; they were, if anything, simple, but they required an enormous act of trust by the participants at Tashkent.
  I can understand the feeling about the Soviet Union being involved. Sometimes even a family quarrel is more easily solved by a friend from outside than by another member of the family. This has happened and one thing that we ought to look at today is the evidence provided by the Tashkent meeting that the Soviet Union sees its national interest bound up with the peace and stability of the whole sub-continent. It is important that Russia has been prepared to mediate impartially between India and Pakistan to help them compose their differences. The Soviet Union, which is becoming not an advanced industrial Power—I am speaking politically, not in economic terms—but a senior and mature Power, has more and more vested interest in seeing peace and stability and less and less an interest in seeing disturbance and insecurity created.
  This may be the real heart of what is probably the biggest and most challenging thing going on in the world today, the question of the relations between India and China. Therefore, I think that this could be one of the more hopeful developments in international politics in our time, and a possible further point of common interest between Russia and the West. It is interesting that that point
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  of contact should have been found in Asia.
  I do not think that it would be helpful to say much more now about the Kashmir situation, because this is a tremendous problem and we all know the feelings engaged. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, felt it right not to go into the basic issues and the feelings both of Pakistan and India about the issues which are involved. I think that it is right, however, to refer—particularly since there has been reference to feelings in India about relations between our two countries—that I should say something about the fact that, at the most dangerous and crucial moment of this situation, at the time of the Chinese ultimatum, I happened to be taking part in a big programme on American television, without the help, I may say, of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Osborn), who referred to these things earlier.
  I was asked flat out by the persistent American journalists over the Early Bird satellite about our reaction and about what we would do if the ultimatum were pressed. I do not think that this broadcast has been fully reported in India, so I will say that I then reminded the world of what this House of Commons and the then Government had done—with the full support of the then Opposition—in rallying to India when it was threatened with an ultimatum and the challenge of Chinese aggression three years ago.
  I repeated firmly what our position would be if the ultimatum were pressed and I believe that that statement had some effect. No one in the House can doubt the importance of that statement and what was involved in that reply.
  Before I leave the question of the sub-continent, I will refer, as did the right hon. Member, to the other problem which dominates the position in India and threatens her future. This is the problem of economic development. I have said a number of times—this is an obvious cliché—that the real war going on in Asia today is an economic conflict, in effect, between India and countries like India, on the one hand, and China, on the other, and that the future not only of Asia, but of the world, will be determined by which side wins this competitive struggle, whether it is

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  a democratic India and other democratic countries or Communist China.
  In this struggle, which is as vital to the future of the world as any war could be in Asia, there can be no neutrals. No one in India is or can be in any doubt about which side the British Government and people are on in this struggle, or about the help which has been given.
  The right hon. Gentleman talked today about increasing the aid programme and doing more. As he knows, over the past five years, British Governments have signed aid loans for over £200 million for development in the sub-continent and we intend to go on playing our full part in the great efforts of both countries for the expansion of their economy. The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the famine following the failure of the monsoon last year and this lends emphasis to what all of us have urged—I am sure he did when he was in the Fast East; the President of the United States has, I know, as have other Commonwealth countries—the paramount need for both countries to be able to devote their resources to fighting what is the greatest war on their hands, the war against poverty and famine, and to devote their resources to this rather than to military preparations for conflict across the Indo-Pakistan borders or anywhere else.
  The world is in the process now of mobilising a tremendous operation in sending food to India—the right hon. Member gave the figures—and no one can be in any doubt that the help given in the last few years to both countries by the United States alone almost defies the powers of statisticians. Indeed, this was one of the most important issues which I discussed with President Johnson in Washington, before Christmas. It is not just a question of mobilising the supplies, whether from North America or the Antipodes, and of shipping them to India. There is the no less formidable problem of India's own problems of transport, to say nothing of the problem of distribution and that of port capacity, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred many times when he was there.
  We have assured the Government of India that we shall respond as swiftly and
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  as fully as we can in helping to overcome India's food crisis. We have offered an interest-free loan of £7·5 million; indeed ever since last October, all our aid to India in loan form has been interest-free, which is a very important development in the whole concept of international aid. The Government of India have accepted and welcomed our suggestion that the loan should be used to meet the foreign exchange costs of shipping emergency supplies including supplies of foodstuffs from Commonwealth countries, in the provision of grain-handling equipment for their products and the purchase of commodities immediately required to help deal with the emergency.
  I will now turn, as the right hon. Gentleman did, to the Malaysia-Indonesia confrontation. The previous Government played a great part in the creation of the sovereign, independent country of Malaysia, and, when it was created, they pledged that country every promise of military assistance, should it be required. Of course, that pledge, when made by the then Government, was underwritten by the then Opposition. Tragically, perhaps much earlier than could have been foreseen, the previous Government were called upon to honour that commitment. We have fully continued in that task.
  We have all noted what the right hon. Gentleman said about what he saw there, but he will agree that this is and has been a tragic and unnecessary confrontation arising not out of any dispute between the nations concerned, but out of the determination of Indonesia that Malaysia, as a State, should not be allowed to exist at all. Indeed, so strongly did Indonesia feel that she left the United Nations because of that determination. This was unprecedented in our post-war history.
  Out of our limited military resources and at great cost in terms of military effectiveness elsewhere we, Australia and New Zealand have given the fullest backing to our Commonwealth partners in that area. This has been made no easier by the events of last August, which led to the separation of Singapore from Malaysia.
  Unlike the right hon. Gentleman, who has been in the area on the ground, I

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  have been in almost constant consultation with the two Prime Ministers concerned since the separation. As I explained yesterday, I have had the chance of discussing this with Lee Kuan Yew and Tun Razak, the Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia. No one will underrate the great difficulties for Britain created by the events of last summer. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was, of course, in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur recently and had discussions with Lee Kuan Yew and Tunku Abdul Rahman. Nothing that has happened affects our determination, for as long as it is necessary, to support our Commonwealth partners against any threat from their Indonesian neighbours.
  This confrontation is an unnecessary thing from start to finish. It is totally opposed to the real interests of Indonesia and Malaysia and we, for our part, would like to see, and will do everything in our power to bring about, not merely an improvement in relations between Indonesia, on the one hand, and Malaysia and Singapore, on the other; but also what, I think, will be supported on both sides of the House, which is a steady improvement in relations with Indonesia itself, given the necessary good will from Indonesia.
  It is, of course, difficult for any of us to speculate about precisely what is happening in Indonesia now. I will not try to do that, or try to speculate precisely what has happened since the abortive coup d'etat last summer. The situation has remained confused and there is uncertainty about it. It would be rash and unprofitable to predict what will ultimately happen. However, no one underrates the suffering of the Indonesian people themselves. The last few months have seen that. President Soekarno has spoken of 87,000 Indonesian people having been killed in this struggle, while others place the loss at an even higher figure. This struggle is continuing. One thing is clear: the Indonesian Communists who began it, and who have suffered the most, will be unlikely for many years to regain their former ascendancy.
  During the Commonwealth Conference last year the close relations between China and Indonesia were in evidence over a wide area, not least the close identity of views between them at the time of the
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  abortive Algiers Conference. But a great deal has taken place since then, and many forecasts now indicate that we should look forward to relations with Indonesia on a very different basis in the future from that which has obtained in recent years. Until that happens we will continue to assist Malaysia and Singapore against utterly unjustified attacks made on them.
  We are also taking every opportunity to assure the Indonesian leaders and people that the road to peace is open and that we ourselves are ready and anxious to take any step to improve relations, compatible with our obligations to Malaysia and Singapore. If that can be done—if the confrontation can be ended and the struggle brought to a conclusion—it might cause a quite revolutionary change in relations not only between Britain and Indonesia, but between the West in general and Indonesia, which is a matter of plain common sense and advantage for Indonesia and ourselves and for our allies and partners.
  I turn to the situation in Vietnam. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I do not propose to go over the whole background to the fighting in this war-torn part of the world. In the past, I have stressed that there are three reasons—with which I am sure all hon. Members will agree—why it is urgent that this fighting should cease. The first is because of the tragedy which this war brings on the peoples of Vietnam, people who, after 20 years of almost continuous fighting, want to live in peace, to till their farms and bring up their children. As long as the fighting continues, and there is this tragedy, and while some will blame the deaths, maiming and destruction on one side or the other, these things will continue on both sides.
  The second is because, as I have said on many occasions, as long as this fighting lasts there is the danger of escalation to the scale of a major land war in Asia and possibly something even far worse. The third is because as long as the Vietnam fighting casts a cloud over international relationships, the easing of tensions between East and West, progress in disarmament and progress towards a world agreement to stop the spread of nuclear weapons may be endangered by this poisoning of the atmosphere. I do not think that it would be profitable for

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  me this afternoon to go over the whole history of the dispute—this war which is at once a civil war and an international war—which, as we have said at different times, has rendered more complicated and difficult any solution.
  In a previous debate the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in supporting the American position was being called in question and I do not propose today to go over all the arguments which my right hon. Friends and I have put here in the House and in other debates outside, including the debate at our party conference at Blackpool last October, when there was a very full debate on Vietnam—a very passionate debate on the subject—and when, because we have this old-fashioned habit, we have a vote at the end of it to see what the conference thought about it.
  I wish to recall something I said on this question when we had a debate in the House last July. I want the House to ponder on the consequences of what we would have if there was a unilateral withdrawal of the United States—and I will quote what I said last July:
  "A unilateral withdrawal of the United States would have incalculable results, first in Vietnam. It would have incalculable results, too, over a much wider area than Vietnam, not least because it might carry with it the danger that friend and potential foe, throughout the world would begin to wonder whether the United States might be induced also to abandon other allies when the going got rough."
  There is that danger. I continued:
  "One has only to look at the map of South-East Asia—rich, fertile, mouth-watering, not in current economic terms, but in terms of temptation to those seeking a wider sphere of exclusive influence."
  I went on:
  "Again, in terms of great power relationships"—
  This is what I emphasise:
  "a unilateral withdrawal would be held as a humiliating defeat and would make not only countries such as Russia but—let us be frank—America herself, that much more intransigent and tough and determined to see that the experience was not repeated and that much less inclined to policies of co-existence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th July, 1965; Vol. 716, c. 1128.]
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is that not exactly what Winston
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  Churchill said when we withdrew from India?
  The Prime Minister: I think that on that occasion my hon. Friend and I were on the same side, from the point of view of India. I do not think that there is an analogy or parallel in any way here. I believe that there would be this very great danger of polarisation and of causing great intransigence and that it is not in the interests of world peace that Russia or America should be driven into a position of intransigent isolation.
  Another thing I said in that debate which I believed to be true then—and what has happened since underlines what I said; and the right hon. Gentleman drew attention to it—is the fact that last July there was a very strong hope in Hanoi that the effect of the weather—fighting under monsoon conditions—would make it more likely that the Vietcong would win. We said this:
  "Military means can prevent an imposed solution, but there can be no victory now. This war will end when that realisation penetrates those capitals which are at present intoxicated by hopes of an early military settlement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th July, 1965; Vol. 716, c. 1128.]
  One reason why the Commonwealth peace mission was not allowed to visit Hanoi was that the North Vietnamese and their National Liberation Front Allies thought that the monsoon would be favourable to the Vietcong and that while there was a chance of victory there should be no talk of peace. That assessment was proved wrong. The monsoon did not bring victory and we must get this clear; there will now be no victory for anyone. There must, therefore, be a political solution.
  In the foreign affairs debate on 21st December I reported to the House on my talks with President Johnson, in Washington. As it happened, on that day the foreign affairs debate which had been planned was turned mainly into a debate on Rhodesia and the House was not able to go as fully as I should have wished—and as many other hon. Members would have desired—into the issues which I had discussed with the President.
  I made clear then the desire of the American Government to bring this fighting to an end and I am absolutely convinced about the sincerity of the President in this matter. I could not be more convinced about anything. I am convinced

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  about his willingness to go to the conference table without prior conditions, to give full support for any initiative which we, particularly in our capacity of Geneva co-chairmen, or anyone else might take to get a conference organised. Of course, I could not tell the whole story then. I indicated to the House that I could not say everything that had been discussed about our plans for an all-out effort to bring the parties to the conference table because announcements were then on the way. A suggestion had been made for a brief Christmas truce. We discussed this in Washington and, as the President and I agreed, why only Christmas? I was in touch with him on this matter until very late on Christmas Eve, and again over the Christmas weekend.
  The truce that was agreed was fully honoured, during the limited period, by both sides. The American Government honoured it, and they agreed, as we had urged, that the truce should be extended beyond the Christmas period—provided, of course, that it was honoured by both sides. They agreed that America would not fire the first shot; that if there was no fighting from the other side there would be no fighting by the United States. In the event, a very great chance was missed. The ground fighting did begin again. It was the Viet-cong who began it—but the bombing was not resumed.
  Her Majesty's Government—and I want to say quite frankly what our position has been on this—were anxious that the cessation of the bombing should last long enough to give every opportunity to Hanoi to reconsider their position so that they could decide to come to the conference table. The hopes that we expressed and urged found a response in the attitude of the American Government. More than that, a great peace offensive was mounted. The President of the United States sent personal emissaries to practically every country in the world. And this time the word did get through to Hanoi. There was no question this time—whatever arguments there may have been last May—that the message got through.
  We played our very fullest part in the orchestration of this offensive and in getting these messages through—
  Mr. Neil Marten: Was not the peace conference also a proposal of the Prime Minister?
  The Prime Minister: The peace conference?
  Mr. Marten: The peace offensive.
  The Prime Minister: As I have said, we discussed all the aspects and all the things that needed to be done to get them to the conference table. I told the House before what our own position would be in regard to the initiative; some came from one side, some came from another side, but we were in complete agreement about what needed to be done and both sides gave the fullest support. This was, therefore, quite different from the situation last May. There was a brief bombing pause last May, but then there was reason to doubt whether it lasted long enough for the Hanoi authorities to be clear what its purpose was.
  On this occasion—the 40 days—there could be no doubt. We ourselves, by every means open to us, got our message through, and I can say beyond dispute that there can be no doubt at all that the authorities in Vietnam were not in any doubt that if they would come to the conference table the bombing would not be resumed. I sent messages to Mr. Kosygin and also direct to Hanoi. We were in contact with the North Vietnam representative in Moscow, and the Polish Government were alerted and were given the fullest briefing on the Western argument. In all, 70 countries were approached with the proposals that we were putting forward. No country was omitted that could even indirectly help to get the message through.
  It was our view, and we pressed this, that the cessation of bombing ought to last until the Vietnamese New Year in order to give a period long enough for reconsideration. I urged—and I think that it was a fair point to make, although we are all very much in the dark, really, about many of these things—that the Vietnamese Communists were not of the classical sophisticated type of Communist; people who could take quick decisions and who had a rule book to follow. They needed time to think their position through. We urged that the cessation should last to the Vietnamese New Year, and President Johnson, in spite of considerable public pressure in his own country—let there be no doubt about that—and, above all, in spite of the intensifying of the war in Vietnam by troops who had infiltrated into the area during the

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  bombing pause, continued to hold his hand. The Vietnamese New Year came and went, and still the bombing was not resumed.
  I want to say this to the House quite seriously. Her Majesty's Government having pressed, having urged, that this one-sided truce be continued day after day, week after week, long after the military commanders on the ground felt that it could not be justified in terms of men's lives; having urged that, together with others, in the hope of getting some glimmer of willingness from Hanoi that they would come to the conference table, had to recognise that that glimmer was not forthcoming, and since we had pressed for postponement of the resumption of bombing for all that period in order to get that sign, that evidence, we had to recognise that the American Government understandably felt that they had no option but to resume the bombing.
  If we ourselves had not pressed for the extension all that time, and had our request not been met, perhaps a different argument could have been put, but, having pressed for it to be extended, we felt that it placed an obligation on us when the bombing was resumed—
  Mr. William Yates: The Prime Minister has not mentioned one country, and I am sure that he must wish to mention it both to the House and to the country. Did Her Majesty's Government at the same time make quite certain that the Chinese People's Republic and its Government were fully alerted to what we were trying to do?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, we were fully alive to that aspect, but I shall deal with China in a moment.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My right hon. Friend has referred to the one-sided truce, but is not this a rather false picture? Is it not the case that there has been no bombing at all by the North of the South? Is it therefore correct to call it a one-sided truce?
  The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend will study, for example, the agreed guide lines on the question drawn up by the Commonwealth Prime Minister's Conference, he will find that we always linked the two contributions that needed to be made: on the one hand, the stopping
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  of bombing by America and, on the other, the stopping of the infiltration, particularly, of regular troops from North Vietnam to the South. As far as the Commonwealth test applied in this arrangement, there was certainly a one-sided truce.
  As I have said, having pressed the Americans, as we did, in face of great difficulties, there was this obligation when, at the end of the day, there was no glimmer of hope from Hanoi, and when this occurred, and when the whole world asked Britain where she stood, I took the fullest responsibility for the statement issued by Her Majesty's Government last month.
  I know the feelings of some of my hon. Friends about the bombing—and, indeed, about that statement—and I want to say this to them. They have always been frank with me and I am always frank with them. I have never doubted their sincerity. I have sometimes wanted to see similar passion shown by hon. Members opposite about this—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I should sometimes like, when we are going through these questions, to have the smirks taken from the faces of some hon. Members opposite, who look on this question not in terms of the tragedy it is, but in terms of a little innocent fun in regard to the Front Bench and back benches on this side—
  Mr. Peter Blaker Mr. Peter Blaker (Blackpool, South) rose—
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friends will, I know, allow me to say that, while I have never doubted their sincerity, I shall not accord to them any monopoly of feeling or passion or desire that this fighting should cease. It is not 30 or so Members, but 300 Members on this side—and, I am sure, a large number of hon. Members on the other side—who do not all show it at Question Time, but who basically feel this to be important. Among the 300 hon. Members on this side is to be numbered the Foreign Secretary, who has laboured day after day over the last year to bring the parties to the conference table—and, if I may add it, also the Prime Minister.
  I have reported to the House in previous debates, and week after week at Question Time, what we have done. My right hon. Friend has continually sought

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  to bring pressure on Mr. Gromyko to re-convene the Geneva conference. There has been telegram after telegram, meeting after meeting. And that says nothing of what I have tried to achieve in exchanges with Mr. Kosygin throughout the past year. When I know the facts of what my right hon. Friend has been doing over the past year, I shall not stand aside if I see him attacked in the Press or the country by people who do not know those facts. I know the facts, and I know what my right hon. Friend has sought to achieve. I said at the Blackpool conference, thinking of those outside this House who carry the banner of "Peace in Vietnam", that I will carry that banner with the best of them provided that the message of "Peace in Vietnam" is inscribed not only on the banner, but on the hearts of those who carry it, because if one scratches some of those who partake in these campaigns one finds not "Peace in Vietnam", but "Victory in Vietnam" in their hearts. This means a continuation of the fighting in Vietnam until one side, their side, has won. Do not let us pretend that it is peace in Vietnam that they are after. I share the sincerity of those who want peace in Vietnam, although I do not share their views. Week after week from the summer and up to Christmas I heard in this House and outside that if America were to stop the bombing there could be a peace conference.
  Mr. J. J. Mendelson: Will my right hon. Friend allow me—
  The Prime Minister: I shall come to the speech of my hon. Friend at the party conference, in which he made two points. We have had this point made very frequently, not only in this House but by the Foreign Minister of Hungary when he came over here, in Moscow and frequently at the party conference. It is in the recollection of the House, and has been written 10,000 times in certain sections of the Press, that we cannot have peace while the bombing is on—"Stop the bombing and we shall have peace." I know that there is another point, but, nevertheless, what we were urged to do was to use our influence to get the bombing stopped.
  Frankly, in my heart I hoped that it was true that if America would agree to the cessation of bombing that would
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  create conditions in which Hanoi would come to the conference table. This is why I find difficult to understand why those who urge this so strongly on me—although I did not need any urging; it was one of the cardinal principles stated in the report of the Commonwealth Conference; I did not need any pressing on this—were not so vocal and demonstrative, once the 40-day bombing truce had begun, to see that the same pressure was put on the other side in Hanoi.
  We have had speeches, resolutions, demonstrations and telegrams, but I would have been more impressed if the international cables during the 40-day truce had been sizzling with messages to Hanoi and to Ho Chi Minh saying, when one thinks of all the pressures brought on the United States, "Now conditions for talks exist. Now play your part. Your friends in this country who want peace expect you now to respond." I should like to have seen, "Peace in Vietnam" outside the Chinese Embassy, demanding that the Chinese Government—[Interruption.]—there is a Chinese Embassy here. I should have liked to have seen the peace lobby outside the Chinese Embassy demanding that the Chinese Government should use their influence, or at least diminish their malevolent pressures on Hanoi preventing Hanoi following her perhaps natural inclination to make peace.
  One of the tragic features in all this situation is our inability and the inability of other nations, including the uncommitted nations, to represent the world's views to China in the place in which I should like to see China represented, in the United Nations. As the House knows, in my speech to the United Nations following what my right hon. Friend said there I three times called for the seating of China in the United Nations. I believe this will come. There is no doubt of where Her Majesty's Government stand on this question.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Following the point my right hon. Friend has made, I wonder whether he will explain why we did not vote in favour of the procedural device, which would have enabled China to have been included in the United Nations?
  The Prime Minister: That would be to suggest that we did not consider the

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  seating of China in the United Nations an important question. That was not what was voted on. We think it a very important question and we support the seating of China and have urged it on every conceivable occasion. We shall continue to vote for it, but it can hardly be expected that Her Majesty's Government would vote to say that it is not an important question; it is very important.
  Over the past six weeks Her Majesty's Government have done what I believe the House wanted us to do. We supported the bombing truce to enable Hanoi to go to the conference table, but they did not do so. Until they do I have to say again that the enemies of negotiation, so long as they remain the enemies of negotiation, are for that period the enemies of peace.
  If there is no peace in Vietnam today the House must judge who it is who has refused to come to the conference table. In the United States there are demonstrations of public opinion no less strong—indeed a great deal stronger, I think—than in this country. During the past year there has been a powerful movement in favour of American willingness to negotiate and also a tremendously powerful pressure for tougher measures for expansion of the war to China. We deprecate those pressures for extending the war. We have made it clear in Washington that we could not support any extension of the bombing against North Vietnam by stages to Hanoi or Haiphong. The House knows this and the United States Government knows it. Our general support of the American decision has never stopped us expressing these views when we thought it right to do so. My right hon. Friend last March expressed our strong feelings about the use of gas in Vietnam. He did so in the White House privately and publicly outside. In the history of the 40 days during the bombing pause infiltration continued from North Vietnam. While some may quote the interpretations of the 1954 Agreement, it must be said that this infiltration is in direct contravention of the 1954 Agreement. What we want is to get back to the principles of the Agreement.
  Ground fighting, following the Christmas truce, was resumed. The House can understand the feelings of many Americans that American soldiers are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.
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  During the week ended 15th January while the bombing pause was still on, American casualties numbered 292 more than the total casualties sustained by the total Commonwealth forces in Malaysia during nearly three years of confrontation. It is right that we should get these figures into perspective. We pressed, and had a right to press, for the pause to last long enough to make sure that there was no misunderstanding. Even in the weekend before bombing was resumed, a message was received from the North Vietnamese Chargé d'Affaires and steps were taken to see that we got it quickly in order to see if there were a glimmer of hope of continuing our efforts pressing for a pause. But there was nothing in it that suggested any hope of an immediate conference. If there had been my right hon. Friend would have taken it up.
  When the answer, after the most meticulous examination, was found to be a repetition of North Vietnam's refusal to come to the conference table, we who had pressed for the pause had to admit that it had failed.
  Mr. Stan Newens: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the South Vietnam clique of generals is equally opposed to negotiations and has been bringing pressure to bear on the American Government not to indulge in such negotiations?
  The Prime Minister: I do not deny that there has been a lot of difficulty from that side. This is one of the big problems which the United States has in attempts to get negotiations going. I make it clear that, so far as we are concerned with the policy we have and the responsibilities we have as co-Chairman under the Geneva Agreement and everything we are doing to get peace, we are going on with our efforts and will not be interfered with by any unwillingness, if unwillingness there be—I do not use all the phrases used by my hon. Friend—on the part of anyone in South Vietnam. We want peace in Vietnam and so far as I can see we shall be able to get South Vietnam to the conference table.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
  The Prime Minister: I am sorry, but I should like to finish this part before giving way, if I may. There is the other

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  argument which I know has to be met. We shall be told that there is another impediment to negotiation, the refusal of the American Government to agree to negotiate with the National Liberation Front, the Vietcong.
  First, I would say that some of my hon. Friends have expressed themselves strongly on this and insist on the double condition. This is the point my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) was trying to put, that the cessation of bombing and the recognition of the N.L.F. on equal terms were necessary to get peace. The main argument to which we have listened during all these months has been that, if the bombing stopped, there could be negotiations. To press the other condition and to say that we now want, before we would even send a telegram to Ho Chi Minh, the Americans to come out and say bluntly that they will have the Vietcong there is a little one-sided. It is asking that the American Government must give away all the points at issue before they get to the conference table.
  There are in this House many hon. Members on both sides with experience of industrial negotiations. There are some with a lifetime of experience. They know that to ask one side to a dispute, be they employers or trade union, to give away the whole case before they get to the conference table, while the other side gives away nothing, may always be worth trying but it is not realistic in terms of getting a settlement. I have not much time for those who say, "Of course we will go round the conference table if the other side will give way on every point before they get there". Britain and America are democracies; and although those who quite fairly disagree with the attitude of the Government, whether in Britain or in America, can and do press their Governments to state their position on every point at issue in advance of negotiations, there is no democracy in Hanoi. Therefore, there is no pressure on them to give away their negotiating points before they come to the conference table.
  So week after week I am asked to say that I believe that America should recognise the Vietcong at the conference table on equal terms. But there is no one putting similar points to Ho Chi Minh. There are no banners there.
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  There is no free Press there either. [Interruption.] As far as responsibility for the fighting is concerned, we will look after Saigon. Let me say that to my hon. Friend. We are not going to be pushed around by any unwillingness to go to the conference table. I wish that some of my hon. Friends would look at this through both eyes and not just through one eye.
  Mr. Mendelson: Will my right hon. Friend allow me to remind him that the position he has just described is not just one put forward by me and others at conference. It happens to be the position of Senator Fulbright, the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who pointed out two days ago in a speech in the Senate that, if the President says he wants to negotiate with every Power that he names but refuses to negotiate with the Vietcong and the National Liberation Front, the people he is fighting, all his statements have no point whatsoever. That is the point that my right hon. Friend has to answer.
  The Prime Minister: I recognise this, but I will put this to my hon. Friend. All last year we were told, "No negotiations while the bombing is on". When the bombing stops, there is still no negotiation. If some of my hon. Friends or Senator Fulbright, who is a very old friend of mine, will get out of Hanoi a statement to the effect, "We will come to the conference table if these two conditions are met", we will do all we can to ensure that those two conditions are met. I have not much doubt about the answer. [Interruption.] Of course it is not. That is the point I am trying to make.
  Too often we have been told that there cannot be a peace conference because the other side will not do A, B or C. I am putting the question the other way round, as I put it to my hon. Friend at the party conference. Put it the other way round and let them say, "Yes, we will come to the conference table if these conditions are met". Let us have some statement of pre-conditions from the other side for a change. If they say that they will come if these two conditions of Senator Fulbright are met, we will do anything in our power to get those conditions met. But we will not go on pressing for more and more conditions to be conceded by

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  one side and then still be told that that is not enough; or we will have one condition twisted still further to the point when we are now told not only that the Vietcong must be there but that they must be the sole representative of Vietnam. Therefore, if we can get that straight I am sure that at any rate we can negotiate a peace between us so far as any approach we can make to Hanoi and America is concerned. We are quite prepared to bring the other side of the House into it, if that is what they want.
  We are not going to give up hope. We do not regard the difficulties of the past fortnight as final. We shall go on scorning disappointments or rebuffs until we get there. I want to tell right hon. Members opposite that there may be rebuffs. All this cannot be done through orthodox diplomatic channels. Last year we tried some pretty unorthodox ones. What a reaction there was from right hon. Members opposite. For example, the then Leader of the Opposition said that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was being taken for a ride by the Communists, that he was walking into a Communist trap. My right hon. Friend had never been accused of that before, nor has he since. The Opposition asked us to confine ourselves to orthodox diplomatic channels.
  We have been working the diplomatic channels to the full. We shall go on doing so. We shall go on pressing Hanoi in the new situation, just as we did during the bombing truce. There are those who believe that Hanoi felt that they had nothing to gain by responding to the American initiative. There are some who felt that the bombing, once having stopped, could never be resumed because of the pressure of world opinion. If that was the feeling, perhaps there might be a realistic and welcome reappraisal now in Hanoi. To those of my hon. Friends who are despondent or who might feel that we have reached the end of the road, I say that this is frankly not my view.
  Now, finally, I want to say just one word about where this debate stands in relation to the longer term situation, because behind the fighting and behind the misery there is a much deeper problem here. It is the problem of the sheer primeval, grinding, abysmal poverty in that part of the world. That is why all
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  of us have a duty, and we are making our contribution to the new proposals for the Mekong River development.
  I have spoken frankly this afternoon about this situation, because I want the position of Her Majesty's Government to be utterly beyond doubt. I want it to be recognised that some of us on the Front Bench here, as well as some of those on the back benches, feel as deeply and passionately as any hon. Member in the House about the issues involved. We have listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon. He has visited Vietnam and seen for himself the suffering and immensity of the problem, the fact that in this issue there is no simple solution. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman did not put forward a single new proposal this afternoon. He merely repeated that we should go on talking to Russia. We have been doing that every week and every day since last February. We shall go on doing it, and I shall do it on my visit to Moscow, and I hope that we shall be able to create the conditions in which we can reach an agreement to call the conference, because I believe that once we can get the Geneva Conference convened that will very much alter the situation.
  Sir, I hope that one result of the debate this afternoon has been to underline the deep tragedy of this. There was a feeling last week—perhaps it was a little cynical—that the motive for putting this debate down was not to enable us to have what we have had—that is, a statement from the right hon. Gentleman about the misery and tragedy he saw in Vietnam. I think that some of us were justified in being cynical about this, because although today there has been no disposition to make any party points—there has not—it is a little difficult to reconcile this new attitude, which I welcome, with what went on in recent events in Hull, when the Chairman of the Conservative Party, who many of us will remember from the time when he used to be here amongst us in our debates, went to Hull and built up the Radical Alliance candidate to the skies.
  I find it very difficult to reconcile that with the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman this week. Having had from the right hon. Gentleman a frank statement of how he sees the tragedy in Vietnam,

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  even if in fact he recognises that there are no easy solutions, I hope that from now on, while we can have an exchange of views about this, we shall not regard it as an issue for taunting one side of the House or the other, because hon. Members on this side of the House—on the front benches and on the back benches—feel passionately about these things.
  Lord Balniel: The right hon. Gentleman is repeating the assertion he made earlier in his speech. He said earlier in his speech that most hon. Members on these benches—he emphasised the word "most"—were anxious for peace. How dare he make this assumption? Surely he accepts that every single hon. Member in this House is passionately anxious to end this atrocious war. I might tell the right hon. Gentleman that the reason why some of us on these benches are resentful of the attitude taken by hon. Members below the Gangway opposite is that those hon. Members claim for themselves a monopoly of the desire for peace and they never show an appreciation that in America, many of whose Service men are losing their lives, the same desire for peace exists. How dare the Prime Minister make this point?
  The Prime Minister: I thank the noble Lord for asking me, how dare I say what I said? I want to make this perfectly plain. I said earlier that I am sure that, there is universal sincerity in wanting to see peace, but there has also been far too much in recent weeks like the guffaws from hon. Members opposite, every time my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology comes on to the scene—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] All we get from some hon. Members every time we discuss these deep issues of world peace are just attempts to try to point to divisions on this side of the House. I agree with the noble Lord in resenting anyone thinking that he has a monopoly of passion about Vietnamese affairs and feelings. There is no one in the House who feels more passionately than my right hon. Friend and I about these things. This is the point I have tried to make. I deplore that, while in this House we can talk about these issues, outside in the country we have right hon. Gentlemen and party leaders trying to make an issue of this question as a means of swinging votes to a party—[HON. MEMBERS:
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  "No."] this did happen; of course, it did—and we had Conservative canvassers in Hull going round the housing estates telling people that, if they could not vote for the Conservative candidate, they should vote for Mr. Gott, the Labour candidate. That sort of thing makes a mockery of some of the statements we have been having. But they got their answer.
  Let this debate continue between right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House. None of us will resent any criticism from any part of the House if we are not going the right way to get peace. But let us at least in these debates recognise the tragedy we face in Vietnam and the efforts, which I hope would be supported by the whole House, of Her Majesty's Government in trying to bring Vietnam to the conference table and to peace.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Angus Maude: The Prime Minister's last words rather tended to spoil what was, I thought, an authoritative and, on the whole, helpful speech. I should ge grateful if the right hon. Gentleman could give me his attention for 30 seconds because I wish to ask him a question. Is the right hon. Gentleman trying to tell the House that it is not a political issue with which Parliament should be concerned that members of his own party in the House and outside actively support the enemies of our allies? Is he really saying that that is not a political issue? It is what he tried to tell us at that Box just now.
  The Prime Minister: I hope that this issue is not a political question between the parties. I certainly resent the suggestion of any supporting of enemies of our allies which the hon. Gentleman has just made. After all, there were some very squeamish complaints from that side of the House when some of my hon. Friends talked about right hon. Gentlemen opposite giving aid and comfort to rebels against this country. I think that the difference—if the right hon. Gentleman will understand this; it is a different concept of leadership—is that, whereas there are disagreements on both sides of the House, he does not stand up to those who disagree with him as I hope I do when I consider it to be necessary.
  Mr. Maude: I hope that the House feels that that has clarified the issue. I confess that I do not. The Prime Minister cannot deny that there are those on his side of the House who have actively supported in every way—he has been complaining about it himself—the enemies of our allies—[Interruption]—who have said repeatedly that the Americans are wrong in everything they do and should withdraw from Vietnam, and that everything the Vietcong and the Government of the D.R.V. do is right. The right hon. Gentleman cannot tell us that that is not a political issue. Of course, it is a political issue, and of course his party must be judged as much by those below the Gangway as by those above it.
  Without any doubt whatever, we support what the Prime Minister has said about the policies which Her Majesty's Government and this country should pursue there, but there is a tendency to regard the affairs of Vietnam in isolation from those of the rest of Asia. It has been noticeable today, for example, that the two speeches we have heard seemed to fall naturally into three parts, the Indian sub-continent, the Malaysia confrontation, and the war in Indo-China. It is my suggestion that the problems of South and South-East Asia are not quite so separate as they seem.
  The Prime Minister said that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had produced no new suggestions. This is not an area in which new suggestions can be very frequent or very helpful. But what was interesting was that the Prime Minister himself did not tell us what ultimate future he saw for South Asia. He said that he hoped that the confrontation in Malaysia would, sooner or later, come to an end. He said that he hoped that the Government of North Vietnam would come to the conference table. He said that he hoped that India and Pakistan would come to an agreement about Kashmir. We all hope all these things. But this leaves unanswered the problem of China's intentions. It leaves unanswered the question of what happens to the rest of Indo-China, to Laos and Cambodia. It leaves unanswered the question whether Burma can be brought back into the comity of nations from an isolation which at the moment is leading her very close to economic ruin and increasingly under the influence of China.
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  I thought that the Prime Minister was not particularly helpful when he made a great point of the rivalry in the eyes of the world between democratic India and Communist China. This has been said so often that it has become almost a cliché. I believe it to be a profoundly dangerous one because, if it is suggested that there ever will be a time when one can say clearly that the Chinese experiment has succeeded or that the Indian experiment has succeeded, the one in contradistinction to the failure of the other, it must follow inevitably that the advantages will always be with China in any kind of competition so described.
  China, a totalitarian country, can devote whatever proportion of her national income and resources she wishes to particular prestige projects, to defence, to rearmament, or to development in particular areas. What can be seen of life in China by visitors from outside is always carefully selected by the Chinese Government. What goes on in India, on the other hand, is not only open to the world but minutely documented by economists, by social scientists and by agriculturists from all over the world. To suggest that there is a rivalry between the régimes of these two countries which, one day, will be resolved to the advantage of one of them is, I believe, quite unhelpful to the cause of peace in Asia.
  It has become another cliché to say that the great problem of the second half of the 20th century is the gap between the standards of living of the rich northern half of the world and the poor southern half of the world. It has been said that Africa, Asia and Latin America represent the poor southern half and that the difference in standards of living is increasing and must be reduced.
  I want to suggest that there is one difference which makes Asia profoundly different from Africa or from Latin America. It is not only that the population of Southern Asia is more than twice as large as the populations of Latin America and Africa put together. Above all, it is that neither in Africa nor in Latin America are there any states with Communist Governments.
  It is all very well for anyone to say that this is irrelevant when one is talking in terms, as people do, of the battle for the minds of men in which we have

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  to defeat Communism. In fact, Communism has not succeeded in any underdeveloped area for economic reasons or because of a victory over the minds of men; and until the Left grasps this point it will never really realise what are the issues at stake in Asia now.
  I should be grateful if the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary would not talk quite so loudly, because I am trying to help them with their hon. Friends below the Gangway.
  The fact which must always be borne in mind is that, with the possible exception of Cuba, which most hon. Members would accept as being sui generis, no country in the world has ever gone Communist since 1917 unless it had either a Communist neighbour or a Communist army of occupation in it.
  It does not essentially follow from this that, if a country has a Communist neighbour, it will go Communist. It is as well to remember that, in 1948, six simultaneous Communist rebellions broke out in Asia in countries which had not got frontiers with Communist countries—and all failed. Some of them took a long time to bring under control but nevertheless all failed.
  Mr. Emlyn Hooson: What of China?
  Mr. Maude: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman suggesting that China did not have a frontier with a Communist country?
  Mr. Hooson: I am suggesting that it did not have a Communist army of occupation. It had an indigenous Communist army.
  Mr. Maude: I did not say that it did not. I said that no country had gone Communist unless it had either a Communist neighbour or a Communist army of occupation in it. It is all very well to sneer that what is sometimes called the "domino" theory of Communist expansion is an exploded myth. It is not.
  Mr. Heffer: To pursue this a little further, let us take the question of China. Is it not a fact—and surely the hon. Gentleman understands this matter—that the Chinese Communist Party led the fight for Communism in China despite the Russian Communist Party and in
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  opposition to its ideas—which is surely a completely opposing point of view?
  Mr. Maude: It is not wholly true. I am prepared to concede that the Russian Communist Government under Stalin did not give the Communist forces of Mao Tse-tung very much help—we all know that. But it was very difficult for them to do so considering that, for some years past, they had been collaborating with Chiang Kai-shek.
  The fact is—and no hon. Member opposite can say that it is not true—that no country has ever gone Communist, with the exception of Cuba, without having a Communist frontier next to it or a Communist occupation—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about Russia herself?"]—I said, since 1917. If the hon. Gentleman cannot keep awake he should either go quite to sleep or leave.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: What about Indo-China?
  Mr. Maude: The Indo-China war went on till 1954 and the Chinese Communists had arrived on the frontier in 1949. I hope we have that clear.
  Mr. Silverman Mr. Silverman rose—
  Mr. Maude: I cannot give way again. I have given way a great deal. I might be able to do so a little later.
  We have to accept that any country in Asia which has a mountain or jungle frontier with a Communist State is continuously at risk. Let us see how it is that forces from North Vietnam are now getting into South Vietnam. They are not coming across the 17th Parallel but through so-called neutral Laos, because Laos is now partitioned between the forces of the so-called Pathet Lao and the remaining forces of the neutralist Government under Prince Souvanna Phouma.
  I have been behind the Pathet Lao lines myself. Everyone who has been there knows that the so-called Pathet Lao forces are not Laotian at all but are officered and controlled by officers from the Democratic People's Republic of Vietnam, receiving not only orders but supplies from Hanoi. Indeed, when I was there some years ago, their supplies were being air-lifted in aircraft with Russian markings from Hanoi to an airfield near Khang Khay.

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  The neutrality of Cambodia, despite the alarms sounded by Prince Sihanouk, is being daily violated. It is always being violated by the Communists, who use Laos and Cambodia as a retreat when pursued. It is now sometimes, regettably, being violated by the Americans and the South Vietnamese, which has created a number of incidents. Neutral Cambodia is being used as a base for sorties into which it is impossible to pursue the fleeing enemy.
  If the war in South Vietnam is lost there is no question but that Laos and Cambodia will go next. Ho Chi Minh says that he intends to unite the whole of former French Indo-China under one rule from Hanoi—and there is nothing to make one doubt his intention. One knows the tragedy of Laos: how, consistently, over the years we, the Western Powers and the Russians—everybody—have failed to secure a neutral Laos. We could have secured it in 1957. Then we had a chance to secure a genuinely neutral coalition Government. At that time none of the Western Powers except the French were prepared to work hard to secure it.
  In 1960, at the time of General Kong Lae's coup in Vientiane we would have got a neutralist government, again under Prince Souvanna Phouma. At that time the British and Australians as well as the French had come to the belief that this was desirable. The Americans and the Thais agreed, however, with General Phoumi Nosavan that a neutralist government containing Communists was bound to go Communist. It was not until 1962 that we got the solution that we could have had in 1957—but then it was too late, because, by that time, the Pathet Lao occupied more than half the country.
  If we look at the history of this part of the world, we must know that the only solution is a neutral Laos and a neutral Cambodia as a buffer between the sensitive parts west of there and the expansion of North Vietnam and perhaps of China.
  I have said that all this part of the world must be taken together, and that is true. There is Chinese pressure—how great it is and how far it will be carried we do not know—on the northern frontier of India. China is one of the three coun-
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  tries between which Kashmir is partitioned. There are Chinese in Ladakh. They are infiltrating their influence. Having swallowed Tibet they are infiltrating into Nepal and into North Burma.
  It may well be that the Chinese have not a world revolutionary, expansionist or imperialist nature. We must hope not. But let us not forget that, if we took them at their word, it would be too late if we discovered afterwards that we we were wrong. Too many free nations and peoples would in fact have been swallowed up by then by a totalitarian tyranny from which nothing but a major war could rescue them. If South Vietnam goes and Laos and Cambodia go, what happens to Thailand? Are we to call off the Americans in South Vietnam in order that we may all fight in a war in Thailand later on, on worse ground? That is not a very helpful piece of world strategy.
  In the long run, if we are to solve the questions of Malaysia, Indonesia, Indo-China and Kashmir, we have to consider the whole of South Asia not merely as one land mass, but as one defensible area, as one area for economic development. In the long run, there is no way in which this can be achieved except the neutralisation of the whole of South Asia from the North-West Frontier to the tip of Indonesia under joint guarantees by Soviet Russia and the West.
  If this can be achieved—and goodness knows that it will not be easy and that it will take a very long time—there is the answer not merely to the containment of China, but to the economic development of the whole of South Asia. The Russians will not make it easy for us, but at least what they did at Tashkent shows that they are capable of statesmanlike diplomatic initiatives and understanding of the sort of intractable problems with which one is faced in dealing with South Asia now.
  But it is no good suggesting that while we are waiting for this to happen the Western presence can be withdrawn from South Asia and that everything will go nicely: that the British can withdraw from Singapore and that the Indonesians will just go quietly away and say that Malaysia can carry on uninterrupted. It is no good saying that the Americans can withdraw all their forces from South Vietnam and that we shall get a nice reunited neutral Vietnam not under

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  Communist control. That is too simple. What hon. Members opposite below the Gangway who have pressed these points are asking for is a recipe for international anarchy, in which the strong are always allowed to swallow up the weak. That is not the way in which the future of South Asia can be assured.
  I hope that when he winds up the debate the Foreign Secretary will feel able to say something about the longer-term possibilities. But we must all agree with Her Majesty's Government that there is no hope for a long-term peaceful solution unless it is made obvious, alike to the Indonesians as to the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong, that they cannot win a victory over unwilling people by force, that they must negotiate. But if they are to be brought to negotiation, for goodness' sake let us stop trying to tell our allies to give all their negotiating cards away first.
  7.13 p.m.
  Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I must apologise to the House for my voice and for my manners. I have been briefly afflicted by the current malady. I hope that before I have finished my speech my right hon. Friends will not think that it is an attack of Asian 'flu. I could not speak yesterday and today my doctor tells me that I must leave the Chamber as soon as I sit down.
  I will follow the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) on the domino theory a little later. I want to begin by saying that I disagree with the view, which is sometimes heard, that the policy of the present Government towards Vietnam has been the same as that of the Tory Party while it held power. I am glad to think that that is quite untrue. I remember often urging on the Tory Government that further fighting could never bring a solution to the problem of Vietnam and that Britain's rôle should be to seek an end by conference. I always received a flat rebuff. I could not find a hint, when I looked up HANSARD, from the Government or from the Tory benches that peace by negotiation might be a better plan.
  The present Government's line has been quite different. As the Prime Minister has said, they have tried with all their power to get a conference and if there is now a great world debate about
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  Vietnam, if there is a great questioning going on in the United States, and if the forces for peace by conference are gaining strength, as I am sure they are, that is due in no small measure to the enlightened work and sustained endeavours of the present Government, and particularly of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. They have based their policy on the proposition that armed force will not bring a settlement satisfactory to the people of Vietnam or acceptable to Asia. They have urged throughout that every day of war, with the tortures and atrocities committed by both sides, makes it more difficult to get a just and honourable peace.
  I will not enlarge on their record, on the foreign Secretary's efforts to get Mr. Gromyko to join him in summoning the Geneva conference a year ago, his visit to Washington and his talks with the President of the United States in March, the Prime Minister's talks with the President a little later, the Commonwealth Peace Mission in June, the very striking and important statement in which the Commonwealth Prime Ministers unanimously agreed, the courageous visit of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions to Hanoi—and how the Opposition scoffed and sneered—
  The Prime Minister: Hear hear.
  Mr. Noel-Baker:—the Foreign Secretary's speech to the United Nations in October, with his detailed, precise and impartial proposals on how settlement could be found, the Prime Minister's speech to the General Assembly and his talks with the President then.
  I do not want to exaggerate the results which my right hon. Friends have obtained—other forces have been at work—but it is a fact that the President's speech at Baltimore on 7th April, when he first spoke of "unconditional discussions" followed closely on his talks with the Foreign Secretary at the end of March. The President's invitation to U Thant and the member Governments of the United Nations, the great change in the United States line, his invitation to them to help in getting a conference, came two weeks after the Commonwealth Peace Mission was set up. His recent peace offensive, his bombing pause, his reference of the war to the U.N.,

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  followed his talks with the Prime Minister and the Assembly speeches of my right hon. Friends.
  Unfortunately, the Government of Hanoi say that they accept the Geneva settlement of 1954, which we have been urging, but that they are not yet convinced that the United States Government sincerely does the same. Perhaps some of them do not want to be convinced. One of their leaders, Le Duan, was commander of the resistance against the French in 1954 in South Vietnam. He had great successes. He firmly held a large area of land. He said then that if Ho Chi Minh had taken a stiffer line in Geneva in 1954 he could have got the whole of Vietnam and not just the northern half.
  It is said that this Le Duan is still powerful in Hanoi, that he is the man to blame for the hostile or ambiguous responses which come from there. If so, I think that he is wholly wrong. If I may say so, in answer to the Prime Minister's observations, I have written to Hanoi several times, in common with some eminent people from other countries, and only last week I said on Moscow Radio, hoping that it might reach Hanoi, that anyone who refused a conference now, anyone who allowed the bloody torment of the war to go on, would take a grave responsibility before his fellow men throughout the world.
  I must add in candour that if Le Duan and Ho Chi Minh view the President's peace offensive with caution, or with deep suspicion, I am not surprised. I do not share the view of recent Vietnam history which has prevailed in Washington and in some quarters in this country until today—the view that the Geneva conference set up two sovereign States in North and South, and that the 17th Parallel was the frontier between them; that 900,000 refugees fled in terror from the horrors of Communism in the North and were generously settled by the non-Communist Prime Minister the late Diem in the South; that all went well, that the South prospered and was at peace until the Government of Hanoi started their aggressive war, sending troops, supplies and general staff to destroy democratic government in the South and to impose their
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  own tyrannical form of Communism on the unwilling people there.
  The history has not been at all like that. Before Geneva, while the French were still the Government, the Vietminh had held a large part of South Vietnam. It had acted as a Government in areas which it held and the people had not found it a cruel tyrant. Hon. Members know the writings of the Alsop Brothers in the American Press. They are not exactly "Reds". Joseph Alsop toured rural South Vietnam when the Vietminh were in occupation, before 1954. He wrote as follows:
  "I would like to be able to report—I had hoped to be able to report—that in the long slow canal trip to Vinh Binh, in the Mekong Delta, I saw all the signs of misery and oppression that have made my visits to East Germany like nightmare journeys to 1984. But it was not so. At first it was difficult for me, as it is for any Westerner, to conceive of a Communist Government genuinely 'serving the people'. I could hardly imagine a Communist Government that was also a popular government and almost a democratic government. But this is just the sort of government the Palm-Hut State actually was while the struggle with the French continued."
  And he went on:
  "The Vietminh could not possibly have carried on the resistance for one year, let alone nine years, without the people's strong, united support."
  I am sure that Hanoi believes that this is still true of the Vietcong today. That fact is of immense importance in its thinking now. There are other parts of its thinking, arising from history, for which many of us do not allow.
  The Geneva Agreements of 1954 had five main political provisions.
  The first was that not later than July, 1956, there should be general elections under international supervision to ensure that democratically-elected Governments should be established in accordance with the people's will in both North and South Vietnam. Secondly, the agreement said that the 17th Parallel should be the provisional boundary between North and South. But it set out in terms that the country was only "temporarily divided", that the Parallel was in no way an internationally recognised frontier. It said this because everyone foresaw that after the elections the two halves of the country might want to reunite.
  The third provision was that anyone who desired to do so could move from

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  North to South or South to North, but anyone who stayed, even if in the North he had fought for the French or if in the South he had fought for the Vietminh, should be granted a full amnesty. His life, his property and his rights were guaranteed by Article 14(c) of the Geneva Agreement.
  The fourth provision was that, after the French had left the country, in stages, over a stipulated period of time, no new foreign troops might be brought in, no new bases might be maintained; and a limit of 685 was set on the number of military advisers whom its new protectors, the United States, might introduce into South Vietnam.
  Fifth, the Agreement laid down that an international Commission of Control should be established, provided by India, Canada and Poland. Its task was to ensure that all of these various political provisions were faithfully carried out.
  I ask the House to consider the Geneva Agreements from Hanoi's point of view. Hanoi had stopped fighting after nine years of ferocious conflict, when victory seemed within its grasp. It gave up a lot of territory which it had firmly held in South Vietnam. It accepted the Commission of Control, in which the non-Communists were two to one. It did this believing that the Agreement was an international treaty which the parties would faithfully observe. True, the United States did not sign the declaration endorsing the Treaty, but its delegate, General Bedell Smith, gave a pledge that his Government would seek the unity of the country through free elections under international supervision.
  What followed? The United States, replacing France in Saigon, turned out the Emperor Bao Dai and made the late Mr. Diem President of a Republic instead. It chose Diem on the advice of the C.I.A. Almost at once Diem made trouble for the Commission of Control. He said that he would not allow it to investigate charges that his agents had violated Article 14(c) of the Agreement, that is the amnesty for Vietnamese who had favoured or helped the Vietminh against the French. In other words, he tore up the solemn guarantees that had been agreed to and defied the Commission to carry out its tasks. The Commission formally reported to the Geneva Conference that, owing to Mr. Diem's obstruction, it was
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  "no longer able to supervise the implementation of this Article by the government of South Vietnam."
  Mr. Maude: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is aware, and would wish the House to be aware, that the Government of South Vietnam was not a party to those agreements?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: There was not a Government of South Vietnam when the Treaty was made. There were the French and the Vietminh. The United States had made a declaration that it took note of the agreements and promised to support the elections. After Diem had torn up the Article 14(c) and the Commission reported that it could do nothing, he unleashed a reign of terror in the countryside. Thousands of Vietminh supporters were taken to "re-education centres", 30,000 of them by 1960. Those accused of being active agents of the Vietminh were gaoled or shot. It was a shameful betrayal of the Treaty pledges and of human rights.
  Mr. Maude indicated dissent.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The hon. Member shakes his head. Why was the Government of South Vietnam there at all except by virtue of the agreement made in Geneva? Quite apart from the Treaty is he defending Diem's violation of the human rights which the Treaty had promised?
  Mr. Maude: If the right hon. Gentleman asks me that, I am bound to say that there have been a fair number of violations of human rights in all countries over Asia, not excluding the Communist countries.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Of course, there were grave atrocities by the Vietcong in South Vietnam which, with the Foreign Secretary and all my hon. Friends, I deplore, but I am afraid that Diem set them an example.
  After that, still in the summer of 1955, Diem allowed or organised—I will not say which—demonstrations against the Geneva Agreement, demonstrations in which the hotel which housed the International Commission of Control was burnt to the ground.
  In its sixth interim report the Commission said:
  "The degree of co-operation given by the two parties has not been the same. While the Commission has experienced difficulties in North Vietnam, the major part of the difficulties has arisen in South Vietnam."

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  Still in 1955, Diem announced that he would not allow the elections—which were the very crux of the bargain on which the Vietminh had agreed to peace a year before—to be held either in July, 1956, or ever. Only one explanation has ever been given of this extraordinary decision, supported by the United States, to violate a solemn international pledge. Writing long afterwards, President Eisenhower said in his memoirs that 80 per cent. of the people in South Vietnam would have voted for Ho Chi Minh, who was a national hero. In other words, "Do not let the peoples' will prevail unless it is on your side. Democracy by all means, provided you win. If that is in doubt, scrub the elections, build up your secret police and try all-out repression instead". That is precisely what Diem started in to do.
  From 1955 to 1959, during the so-called period of peace and progress, Diem terrorised the members of the anti-French resistance; he suppressed the various sects who had opposed him; he drove the Buddhists, a large of the nation, into very large scale demonstrations against his rule. I pass over the gross corruption of his brothers, who shared his power, which is eloquently described by Mr. Dennis Warner, a veteran Australian reporter and an ardent anti-Communist. I pass over the misuse of American economic aid—1,000 million dollars—which did less than nothing to help the common people or to aid the national economy.
  In April, 1960, 18 Vietnamese nobles—all Conservatives, some of them ex-ministers, all well known for anti-Communism and for their past ties with the French—petitioned Diem to liberalise his regime. According to the New York Times:
  "The petition said continued arrests had filled the prisons to overflowing, and asserted that a swollen bureaucracy was corrupt and inefficient. The petitioners warned Diem that his policies would soon give rise to soaring waves of hatred and resentment of a terribly suffering people standing up to break the chains that restrain them."
  On 21st November of the same year Diem's elite paratroopers rose in revolt against him. Thousands of civilians joined their march on Diem's palace. After bitter fighting, when 400 men lay dead, Diem remained in power, and he stayed in power until, abandoned by the
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  C.I.A., his generals murdered him in 1963.
  Was it surprising that by the end of 1960 the Vietminh had become the Viet-cong; that they concluded that Diem had closed every avenue of political action to them except the use of force; that many non-Communists—intellectuals, professional men, officers, liberal-minded landlords—had joined them? In 1961, a Rand Corporation researcher, who worked with the United States Air Force, travelled through Vietcong country. He reported that they were fighting with French, American or home-made, jungle-made weapons—none from Hanoi or other Communist sources of supply. This man, George Tanham, said:
  "It is easy, but wrong, to attribute their success solely to terrorist methods."
  A French historian, a specialist on Vietnam, Phillippe Devillers, wrote in March, 1962, that the Communists in the south entered the fight against Diem reluctantly, not on orders from Hanoi or Peking, but in response to Diem's campaign of terror against the former Vietminh. He wrote:
  "The insurrection existed before the Communists decided to take part, and they were simply forced to join in. And even among the Communists, the initiative did not originate in Hanoi but from the grass-roots, where the people were literally driven to take up arms in self-defence."
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: Is not a very important factor that Diem took from the peasants the land distributed to them by the Vietminh and restored it to the land owners, which set the peasants going?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Under Western pressure, Diem brought in what he was pleased to call a land reform. The Communist land reform had given all the land to the peasants. Diem's land reform, following Western models, gave a large area to former landlords and made the peasants pay a high price for the land they retained. It was exceptionally unpopular with the peasants who had been so well treated, as they thought, by the Communists.
  Mr. Blaker: Is it not a fact that in the five years before the reign of terror initiated by the Vietcong about 1959 or 1960 the average rate of growth in food

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  production in South Vietnam was 7 per cent. a year whereas in North Vietnam food production was falling?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: That may well be. The hon. Gentleman is always very well informed on matters with which he deals. I have friends who visited both North and South Vietnam who thought that the North was better managed than the South. When a country is in a state of war, or near war, or is recovering from 10 years of ghastly war against the French, as the North was doing, we cannot expect the economic picture to be very rosy.
  I think that the facts that I have recited explain the fanatical obstinacy of the Vietcong against vastly superior numbers, as the Leader of the Opposition said, and against the infinitely superior armaments which they had to face. These facts explain the Hanoi hatred and suspicion and doubts when the Americans declare that they are defending democracy and human rights.
  It will not be easy to establish trust after the ruthless cancellation of the elections promised in 1954. It is made still harder by the flat denials from Washington that Hanoi had ever agreed to suggestions for negotiation a year ago, in May, or more recently still. I have here the Press conferences of U Thant. I think that the State Department was less than candid with its public and its allies. It is made still harder to establish trust by the State Department's strange White Paper of 8th February, 1965, which contrived to be both naive and disingenuous. It sought to prove that there was no civil war in South Vietnam and that the 17th Parallel was a recognised frontier between sovereign states across which North Vietnam was conducting charter-breaking aggression.
  I have said all this not to justify the Vietcong or to exculpate Hanoi. I repeat that they are entirely wrong to reject the peace negotiations which the President has proposed. I only wish that he had, as The Times said, kept his pause going a few more weeks and given them a little longer to make up their minds.
  I have said what I have today to show the difficulties that we must overcome to get these people to the conference table and the difficulties that we will face when
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  we have got them there. I believe that those difficulties are still further increased by the resumed bombing in North Vietnam. It began a year ago yesterday, on 7th February. We were told that it would discourage the Vietcong, check the movement of troops and supplies from North to South and help to persuade Hanoi to end the war. In those three purposes it failed completely. Indeed, it strengthened the Vietcong, it increased Hanoi's commitment and it stiffened their resistance, just as Hitler's bombing stiffened our resistance in 1940–41.
  I see no reason in logic or experience to believe that the resumed bombing will be more successful now. United States generals have testified that the bombing of the trails in Laos has no military value, and anyone who understands bombing and jungle trails will see how likely it is that that is true. No doubt President Johnson sees no reason why bridges, railways and power stations in North Vietnam should be immune. But I say that if he cares for Asian opinion, if he wants peace and an early conference, as I am sure he does, as a matter of hard political realism he would do much better to call off the bombing.
  What else is needed to improve the hope of peace? The Prime Minister spoke about the status of the N.L.F. I believe that we must do more to clarify what that status is to be. On some days Mr. Rusk says that it is a matter of marginal importance and that, of course, agreement could easily be found once there was a willingness to come to a conference. On other days he says that he deals with Governments only and that the N.L.F. is not a government in any way. I sometimes wonder whether, in the realities of political power, the N.L.F. is not quite as much a Government in rural South Vietnam as is the militarist junta of Air Vice Marshal Ky, who boasts that Hitler is the man he most admires.
  In any case, the N.L.F. has been, is and will remain, a major party in the war, and it must be an equal and accepted party in the conference and in the peace. Without it, we can be very certain that there will be no conference and no settlement.
  I believe that we must clarify the West's commitment to the Geneva Agreement of 1954. Washington repeats that it accepts

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  the essentials of that Agreement; but what does that mean? Does it mean what it meant in 1955? Of course, details can be varied, but the essentials of the Geneva documents, as I have described them, are crystal clear, and this time only honest interpretations will suffice.
  Would the West take a terrible risk, if it agreed to carry out free elections which brought Ho Chi Minh to power? Hon. Members have mentioned Tashkent, but what is the supreme fact about Tashkent? It is that the Soviet Government, instead of trying to create trouble between two neighbours, instead of trying to inflame a war from which they might hope that their Communist parties in India and Pakistan would profit, took the initiative in securing a great agreement, to which Mr. Kosygin made a contribution second to none.
  I call that the supreme fact about Tashkent, and surely it is the supreme proof that the domino theory is nonsense. Of course, much has happened to drive Ho Chi Minh into Chinese arms; but all who know him and his people say that he would follow an independent line and that he would be an Asian Tito. In any case, so far as Vietnam is concerned, the domino theory, repeated today by President Johnson, is simply nonsense.
  I have shown that the war in Vietnam did not start in some deep-laid plan in Moscow or Peking. I answer the hon. Member who raised the point, that its ending, with neutralisation of North and South and mutual armament reductions, would bring no threat to Vietnam's neighbours. It is the war itself which is the danger to Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and China. It is sheer illusion to believe that Communist ideas can be destroyed by guns and bombs. As the Prime Minister said today, war creates the misery and chaos in which Communism breeds.
  Let us end the war and then let us work with Russia and perhaps with China to free the Asian peoples from their ancient enemies of serfdom, usury, ignorance, hunger and disease.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: Hon. Members on both sides will agree that this was a good debate until the Prime Minister brought it down to his level at the end of his speech. I deeply resent,
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  and I know that my hon. and right hon. Friends deeply resent, the shabby device by which the Prime Minister sought to cover up the spilts, dissensions and disloyalties in his own party by an allegation that we on this side are not united in wishing to see the beastly war in Vietnam ended.
  If that is the Prime Minister's idea of a different concept of leadership, let me remind him—and perhaps the Foreign Secretary will be able more easily to get my message through to his right hon. Friend than to Hanoi—that it is a concept which has been shared by every dictator from Napoleon to Franco, and Sukarno, too.
  Having, I hope, expressed myself on that point in sufficiently forceful terms, may I now turn to the interesting and most worthwhile contribution which my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) made to the debate. I would like to follow him in ranging more widely over the area and in not repeating ad infinitum the controversies and intricacies of the Vietnam story.
  I want to follow my hon. Friend particularly because I happen to believe that whatever solution may come in Vietnam—and we all want one—when it comes it will still not finish anything. There will still be subversion, dissension and conflict in South-East Asia, certainly for the rest of the century. As soon as it is settled in one place, it will boil up again in another, and the only hope of preventing it is for us to try to plan ahead and stop the next Vietnam before it starts. I think that hon. Members do no service to the cause of peace by picking indefinitely over certain old bones.
  One country about which we have not heard much this afternoon is one in which I had the pleasure to serve for four years, Burma. This was before the war, and became again briefly after it, a happy country, but now it is far from that. I must choose my words with great care, because I have many good friends in that country. Some are in gaol, and have been held there without trial for three years and more, and some are still free, under the threat, always imminent, of being picked up and put in gaol and held without trial, and I do not wish to make their plight any the worse.

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  Yet I think that even General Ne Win would agree that Burma is a country whose economy is in a shambles, that it is a country which ought to be prosperous, but which is going steadily down-hill, where the administration is virtually nonexistent, where the Army is running the shops—and the personnel are changed every three months to make sure that there is no corruption—but the black market thrives.
  No one can say that Burma's future is bright. At any moment when the Chinese cared to move in, if they thought it worth their while to out-flank Thailand, or to get another frontier with India and Pakistan, or to have a port on the Indian Ocean, they could do so. All this has happened in a country which was once a democracy, in a country which received a great deal of aid from East and West, but which has now become almost moribund.
  This is the sort of position which presents itself before us as the focus of another crisis. This is the sort of state of affairs which we should always seek to prevent. Asia is a varied and enormous area. Its homogeneity must not be exaggerated. If we were to put the tip of the Island of Sumatra where the constituency of the right hon. Member the Leader of the Liberal Party lies, we would find that the furthest eastern territories of the Indonesian Republic would lie across the map of Europe somewhere in the region of Turkey. This is the dimension. There is an immense population. The problems are enormous, and so is the scale, but the most enormous problem of all, and the one which concerns us most, is the problem of India.
  As I am sure hon. Members know, India is a Socialist country which, since 1951, has been devoted to a philosophy of economic planning. In that period it has received in foreign aid from various sources, principally the United States, but also from ourselves, from Canada, West Germany, and other prosperous nations too, a sum which must exceed £2,000 million. Yet today India is facing a famine of such tremendous dimensions that people will probably die in spite of all our efforts to get food to them, and economic development in the country is scarcely progressing.
  This state of affairs ought to force us to ask ourselves why we and others in
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  the West help India. Is it because we have a moral obligation? If we have, I think that it is an obligation which an individual can only discharge personally. No one becomes more moral by paying taxes. If we want to support charity, let us support Oxfam. Do not let us think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can acquire a vicarious morality for us by diverting some of the money which he takes from us to poor starving Indians.
  Do we do it to increase our political influence? If this is the reason, I cannot see that it has had any success to commend it. Do we do it to increase our economic influence? I cannot see any particular advantage now enjoyed by us in our economic relations with India which is undeniably the product of the efforts of the last 15 years.
  Do we do it to secure some mutual interest, a self-interest of our own, an interest which we share with the Indians? I think that this is the reason. The objective which we seek is the economic advancement of India, and the translation of this advancement into greater prosperity for each and every one of the subjects of the Indian Republic.
  Have we achieved that objective? We are faced with a famine in India. We are faced with a state of affairs which is even worse than famine. We have a nation which is in grave danger of being pauperised, of moving into the position of being the permanent recipient of international hand-outs. This is partly the effect of the transfer of surplus American foodstuffs, which may be welcome enough itself in an emergency, but which, over a long period, has most harmful effects, because it discourages farmers from trying to increase their produce, and encourages the authorities to avoid making increased production the goal of the farmers. If India is being pauperised, it is something which we ought to stop, and stop now.
  I am not against aid to India, or to any other country. I believe that technical aid, and the transfer of "know-how", techniques, and skills to the underdeveloped world is of the greatest importance, but I am against any aid which does not work. I am against aid which is made ineffective by those who receive it, by a State such as India, which is so short of administrators that it can

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  scarcely carry out effectively the functions which devolved upon it after independence—and yet is still creating more and more work and more paper for its overtaxed administration, by planning, by centralisation, and by the imposition of controls and licensing and all these other products of Socialism which we find intolerable enough in this country. All these are duplicated, perpetuated, and extended in India today until they are one of the prime reasons for the plight in which so many wretched Indians now find themselves.
  I believe that we need a rethinking of, and a new approach to, much of our philsophy and motivation in providing economic aid. Six years ago, in a speech in the United States Senate, Senator Kennedy, as he then was, said that be believed India was on the point of breakthrough to self-sustaining economic growth. Six years and goodness knows how many million dollars later, India is further than ever from that point, and nobody now, even assuming that he accepts that there can be such a thing as a break-through point of self-sustaining growth, would care to forecast when this is likely to come in India.
  I believe that we can hope to see genuine progress only if we rethink our aid policies, and particularly if we use our influence on the United States, because they outweigh us ten times in the transfer of funds, loans and grants to India, and indeed throughout the world; and if they persist in doing what all the evidence shows to be mistaken, it will help very little if we mend our own ways.
  It is a matter of vital necessity that we should say to Governments like the Government of India, that we are anxious to see genuine economic advancement, and we are not interested—and I hope that even hon. Members opposite are not interested—in using the British taxpayer to underwrite the export of Socialism. [Interruption.] I am glad to hear that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) is so interested. I am delighted to have his support.
  The real need is to try to found progress on a system which works, in which "profit" is not a dirty word, in which effort matters, and in which inefficiency, corruption and bribery are eliminated.
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  If we could get this much in India we should have something, because our aid programme—genuinely and sincerely intended and formulated as it was at its inception and in its execution—is no longer immune from criticism on the ground that in many respects, and in its most important respects, it has proved to be largely ineffective.
  One of the most urgent needs is for a review here and in Washington of our foreign aid policies, however great are the vested interests which resist such a review—political vested interests, academic vested interests and bureaucratic vested interests. A great industry has been created on the foundation of foreign aid, and many people are more interested in preserving their own places within it than in seeing it achieve the purposes for which it was originally designed.
  The second great objective which should inspire us in Asia is to maintain peace and to preserve, and assist others to preserve, law and order. However reluctant hon. Members below the Gangway opposite may be to accept this, it means that this nation has a duty to maintain, and possibly to extend, its capacity for defence and its contribution to defensive alliances east of Suez. I follow what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon in this, and I go further.
  If there must be cuts in our defence expenditure overseas—and perhaps there must be—let them come in N.A.T.O. I am not convinced of the permanent and self-perpetuating justification of our contribution to the defence of Europe. It has to be weighed in the light of changing circumstances. I am certain that in the foreseeable future—in the 10 or 15 years ahead—the major need for a contribution from this country to international peace and stability will come in South and South-East Asia.
  I would like to see not only other Western and European nations taking a share in this—even if it means that they, in turn, run down their domestic contributions to N.A.T.O.—but also a conscious effort on our part, and on the part of the United States Government, to work with the Government of the Soviet Union towards the point where the three countries, with any others which would like to come in, are prepared to establish a

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  system of guaranteed stability—a system of frontier guarantees, the maintenance of the status quo, and the prevention of international war in this part of the world.
  This can be done. It will not be easy, but it is essential, and the only way we shall ever achieve it is by raising our eyes a little from Vietnam, now lying at our feet, and looking ahead to see how we can stop the creation of more Vietnams in the future.
  7.4 p.m.
  Mr. J. J. Mendelson: In introducing the debate the Leader of the Opposition referred to his recent investigations, on the spot, concerning the distribution of military and political forces in South Vietnam. He told us quite frankly that before he went to South Vietnam he had not realised that the Vietcong was much more than a mere military organisation. Many people are in his position. He is not among the least informed in the House or in the country, or among international political leaders. There was a deep significance in his admission. Here we reached immediately to the root of the whole political argument that is now going on with the putting forward of proposals for negotiations and for a settlement.
  It is the nature of the conflict—a civil war with an international conflict superimposed—which the right hon. Gentleman saw when he was on the spot, which is the essential basis of our present international difficulties. It is an essential first recognition and realisation that the people who are organised in the National Liberation Front in South Vietnam and those who are organised in the Vietcong have for many years regarded themselves as being engaged in a civil war which was restarted by the persecution meted out by the Diem régime. There has been abundant evidence from all the leading American political and military correspondents who have spent a number of years in South Vietnam, with headquarters in Saigon, that this is not a controversial proposition.
  I want to refer hon. Members to what I consider to be the best book on the subject, written by Mr. Halberstam, called, The Making of the Quagmire. I do not need to carry with me those hon. Members opposite who hope to con-
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  tribute to the discussion later and who can produce better experts on the subject, but the book that I regard as the best account of the position, The Making of the Quagmire, has received the Pulitzer Prize in the United States. Those eminent critics and writers who award this prize agree with me in their estimation of this work. From this and many other works on the subject, written by experts on the spot, it emerges quite clearly that an understanding of the nature of the two conflicts—a civil war with an international conflict superimposed—must be the starting point of any analysis of the situation.
  In an age of nuclear weapons it is of the greatest importance to understand, equally, the security neurosis of the major powers. Since the invention of nuclear weapons, just because we have entered the field of the unknown, the security concern of all the major Powers, on all sides, has grown apace, and every political problem, no matter where it occurs, is looked upon by the advisers of the political leaders—Presidents, Prime Ministers, or whoever it may be—first as a strategic problem and then as a political problem.
  It is because of that that it is so difficult for the parties who are to take part in these negotiations to agree upon the basis for negotiations. We have an example of that diverse approach to the problem in the reports which are coming in from Honolulu today and those which reached London yesterday. The report this morning is of a serious conflict developing between President Johnson and Marshall Ky, the Premier in Saigon. The background to this conflict, of which we have heard nothing so far in this debate, goes back to the period of suspension of bombing which lasted 37 days. One of my chief criticisms of the Foreign Office and of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and, indeed, of the speech today of the Prime Minister, is that we always get a largely one-sided account of that period.
  First of all, during that period, after the bombing pause had lasted for some weeks and the idea of negotiation was beginning to be taken more seriously, there was a meeting of the organisation of generals and officers in Saigon. These people, who have the power and control

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  in Saigon, decided at that meeting to tell the Premier of South Vietnam that if he as much as entered into the foreground of negotiations, they would remove him within 24 hours. That threat could not be taken lightly by the Premier, because he knows that, in that capital 12 Premiers and Governments have been removed in the last few years. Moreover, removal under such circumstances, which would be carried out by military officers, with the label of "traitor" attached to him, might not mean his peaceful removal, but something much worse.
  So seriously were these discussions and decisions in Saigon taken—although we have heard nothing about them in any account by the Foreign Office of this period so far; no reference was made to it in the statement isued last Monday night in support of the resumption of the bombing operations—by Mr. Dean Rusk and Mr. MacNamara, that Mr. Rusk, who was abroad and wanted to return to his department in Washington, changed his plans and went to Saigon instead.
  All these events there, completely in opposition to any approach even to the foreground of negotiations, are of essential relevance to the current position—
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths Mr. Eldon Griffiths rose—
  Mr. Mendelson: Not just yet.
  The Prime Minister, in the many discussions which have taken place on this subject, is fond of using the phrase—he has used it several times—that, in trying to open negotiations, "the key" is in Hanoi. After recent events in Saigon, he should extend his formula to read that, if the key is in Hanoi, the bolt is certainly in Saigon.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman has put himself in the mind of Mr. Dean Rusk and said why he changed his plans. How does the hon. Gentleman know this? What newspapers is he reading from?
  Mr. Mendelson: As I am replying to a question by a newspaper man, I hope that what I say will not offend him. There are two kinds of facts. There are those which one knows oneself by participating in them and they are limited. We cannot be in different places at the same time, as we do not have the quality of biloca-
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  tion. Then there are facts on good authority. This particular fact has been reported in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the New York Herald Tribune, Newsweek, the Christian Science Monitor—I do not think that I should waste the time of the House by producing every one of my sources for this information. It happens to be one of the few facts on this subject on which there is no disagreement. I shall not be much longer, though I will probably be a good deal longer than the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) would like. I am determined to be.
  I turn now to the point which follows from the events in Saigon and which is of equal importance. We hear a great deal about what took place during the 37 days of the diplomatic peace offensive, but we do not hear so much about the movement of troops, the extension of some of the military interventions and the operations in Laos and on the border of Thailand. We hear very little about the introduction of more troops from Korea and very little about negotiations which are going on with Marshal Chiang Kai-shek at present to introduce some of his troops into the conflict. It is absolutely clear that, to the people who have to make policy in Hanoi and to the people who run the National Liberation Front and the Vietcong, the general atmosphere and the activities of the United States during the suspension of the bombing were such as to make them greatly doubtful about the kind of negotiations they were invited into.
  I and those of my hon. Friends who agree with my position on this subject believe that, despite all the uncertainties, it was the bounden duty of the Premier in Hanoi to send a response conditionally accepting the start of some kind of negotiations. However, it is easy for me to proclaim this, as it is for other hon. Members, but the people who belong to the National Liberation Front are not necessarily the automatic subordinates of the Government in Hanoi. I was discussing this the other day with a French diplomat in Paris who had been an active member of the Maquis during the German occupation. He said, "I know the area out there and I have been in the Maquis. When you are involved in a civil war and a war which you also consider to have aspects of national liberation, you are not

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  always most reasonably given to an assessment of an international situation covering a wide area."
  It is wrong to repeat again and again without real knowledge the propaganda slogan that it all depends on whether someone in Hanoi wants to say yes or no. What is essential is that we should try to create such conditions that the possibility of negotiations should make good sense to all those involved. I come, therefore, to my second point, on which the Prime Minister also touched several times. He said that some people had argued that if only one suspended the bombing, there would be the beginning of a period of negotiations. He exempted me and others from that and said quite fairly that when I had dealt with the subject I had always put forward twin demands at one and the same time.
  I have argued that the cessation of the bombing and the recognition by the President of the United States of the National Liberation Front as a separate partner in negotiations are the essential preconditions for the start of a period of negotiation—
  Mr. Christopher Woodhouse Mr. Christopher Woodhouse (Oxford) rose—
  Mr. Mendelson: In a moment.
  Why did I feel so keenly that these twin demands must be put forward together? Because, as the negotiations get under way, there would be a problem for South Vietnam which cannot be solved unless there is a clear declaration of intent and purpose by the President of the United States before the negotiations actually start. Senator Fulbright put it in his own way the other day, that, if the President agrees to negotiate with a number of countries concerned in the conflict but refuses to negotiate with the people he is actually fighting as a separately recognised partner, there is no point in his offer of negotiations.
  There is, however, another reason. The conflict which is reported from Honolulu this morning deals precisely with this point. Some American diplomats are reported as saying in the discussion that they wanted to advance policies which would put some of the people who do not agree with the National Liberation Front in Saigon and South Vietnam in a better negotiating position; that they
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  wanted to build up the country economically and socially so that there would be some non-N.L.F. partners for negotiation. The Premier of Saigon replied with a complete negative, saying, in effect, "We do not want negotiations with these people. We want the destruction of the Vietcong, every one of them".
  Mr. Woodhouse: The hon. Gentleman referred, as did the Prime Minister, to the two conditions which the hon. Gentleman cited as indispensable as a starting point for negotiations. Is he able to answer the question asked by the Prime Minister; namely, whether he knows this to be a necessary, sufficient and final condition which would be so accepted by the Hanoi authorities? In other words, is he in a position to say whether that is either a fact of his experience or a fact based on good authority?
  Mr. Mendelson: In this position nobody in the Government of Hanoi or any other Government will give anybody a guarantee in advance as to what they might do if these conditions were created. However, I am absolutely confident, from the conversations I have had—and many hon. Members have had such conversations—that if there is to be any hope of bringing Soviet diplomacy fully into play as co-Chairman, those two preconditions are essential to opening the door. This is the real key to the situation.
  Mr. Woodhouse: Those two and no others?
  Mr. Mendelson: As far as I can discern. There is an interesting movement of American opinion on this point which I had intended to quote later in my speech but which, because of the hon. Gentleman's intervention, I will quote now. The point has been made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and other members of the Government in the last few days that the latest note from Hanoi was more unhelpful than some previous announcements. However, this is not the only view we need take about this note. Americans who have been following this business closely and who are deeply concerned over it offer a different view. For example, the editor of the New York Times states in an editorial in today's issue of the paper:
  "Hanoi's insistence that the National Liberation Front is the sole genuine representative of the South Vietnamese people has all

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  the outward marks of a bargaining manoeuvre to obtain maximum status for the Vietcong in the negotiations…A Security Council Resolution could well combine a request for suspension of bombing of North Vietnam with a proposal that France, Britain and African members consult the Geneva participants on a way out of the impasse. It could also call upon the International Control Commission in Vietnam to assemble the military commanders of all the combatant forces on the ground in South Vietnam to discuss a cease-fire".
  This seems to me a more sensible way of looking at these pronouncements. Some time ago my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister asked, in effect, "Why would you expect the President of the United States not to have a starting position which is not necessarily the position to which he must stick once the negotiations have started?" The New York Times, applying the same principle, gave this sensible explanation to the note from Hanoi. I am glad to see the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Woodhouse) nodding in, I hope, agreement.
  Mr. Woodhouse Mr. Woodhouse rose—
  Mr. Mendelson: I think that I have given way sufficiently. However, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to disagree, I must give way.
  Mr. Woodhouse: I intervene again merely to point out that I was nodding not to indicate agreement but to show that I was following the hon. Gentleman's argument carefully.
  Mr. Mendelson: I will have to be content with that, but I would like the agreement of the hon. Gentleman wherever I can get it.
  I turn from the point of the difficulties of getting into the foreground of negotiations to the conflict which is reported from Honolulu today as between the view of some American diplomats about those who might become partners of the National Liberation Front and the view of Marshal Ky's Government. His statement, "We do not want any connection with these people. We want to eradicate them" is a direct result of the conference which was held in Saigon before Marshal Ky went to Honolulu; he knew, if he were to agree to some of these American proposals, what effects might await him when he got back.
  I come to some positive proposal on this matter, remembering that the reso-
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  lution of the problem in Saigon is of absolutely first importance. I believe, with the New York Times, that the suggestion I quoted from the paper is a sensible one indeed. The beginning of any proposal to start negotiations must be a request to the President of the United States for the cessation of the bombing operations in North Vietnam. It has been argued that these operations are necessary on military grounds. In a report from Honolulu to the New York Herald Tribune published yesterday official American sources are quoted as having said this:
  "They said the United States has ' unlimited capabilities' to hit the North but that' we could quadruple our operation in the North and it would not have the desired effect…'."
  No serious military argument is being advanced by the American High Command for the resumption of the bombing operations. The most important argument which led to their resumption was the feeling that morale would go down among those who are the Government in Saigon and their limited number of supporters. Anybody who wants to check this need only inquire of Her Majesty's Government. Indeed, I hope that this point will be made clear. I hope that we will be told whether, throughout the eight months while the bombing was going on, it is not true that the American State Department told the British Embassy time and again that among the three reasons why the bombing should go on was this morale factor and that it was a most decisive one. I therefore accept the view of the New York Times that the beginning must be a cessation of the bombing operation.
  We should ask the President of the United States to make a public, official declaration that he fully accepts the N.L.F. as a separate negotiating partner in any forthcoming negotiations. We should make use of the new idea put forward by the diplomats of the Vatican about a neutral committee and we should set up such a committee in the United Nations.
  I now come to what I consider to have been a serious error of judgment on the part of our Foreign Office in making its declaration about the resumption of the bombing. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister occasionally says—he did so this afternoon—that when we

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  talk about the resumption of bombing we might try to create an aura of moral indignation around some of those who take a different view from that of the Foreign Secretary. I do not know if I would be one of those to be concerned with moral indignation or if that would apply to those of my hon. Friends who hold a similar view to mine on this issue. However, I reassure my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary that this has nothing to do with being superior or feeling that one is the least bit more concerned about the terrible tragedy and loss of life compared with anyone in the Government. Let us remove these debating points from the scene so that we can make progress.
  What were the proposals of the New York Times' leader designed to point out? It is important to remember that the very day after this new proposal for a neutral committee was being mentioned in the United Nations and the very day after the President of the United States was going to submit the Vietnam conflict for the first time to the United Nations, the President chose that day for the resumption of the bombing operations. This was bound to create the worst possible atmosphere of insincerity among those on the other side or among the neutrals. Most people in the United Nations say that because he did that it is almost impossible to get the thing off the ground.
  But we can go better than that. We have on record the opinion of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Mr. U Thant, with whom the Government work in close co-operation on many important subjects—and, not least, the Foreign Secretary himself—that the resumption of the bombing of the North would be seriously harmful to bringing diplomatic negotiations to a starting point. It was at that very moment that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary says that he sanctioned the publication of this statement that the British Government understand and support the resumption of the bombing of North Vietnam.
  There is no question here of searching for motives; no question here of moral indignation. We who criticise the making and publication of that statement say that it was a serious error of judgment, that it will go down as such in history, and
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  will not be disputed as such in a few years' time.
  We must move from that position and say, first, that the bombing must cease, and then that there must be recognition of the National Liberation Front. I would then suggest the calling together of an internal conference in South Vietnam. Whilst there have been these dangerous developments in South Vietnam that I have mentioned, and these decisions by the conference of generals, there have also been hopeful developments.
  In my opinion, one of the serious problems in South Vietnam has always been the large number of refugees and the division of the population into religious groups. Most of the Buddhists—some of whom are now searching, I am told, to create a political movement—are very close to being in favour of the opening of negotiations. Following the recent initiative by the head of the Roman Catholic Church, it is reported by very reputable newspapers that many of the representatives on the Archbishop of Saigon's committee representing the Roman Catholic community are also in favour of a policy of co-operation with other sectors of the South Vietnamese people.
  It is true that most of those who represent the refugees from the North have a different view, but there is now a division of opinion, and it is essential that, if the policy I propose should make sense, we must envisage that before the beginning of the negotiations there should be some preparations for a convention or conference of representatives of the people of South Vietnam themselves. If this were done, and if the neutral committee were to take charge and work in two halves, one half visiting one side and the other half visiting the other side and if, at the same time, contracts were beginning to be made inside Saigon, and if the harmful policy of the generals, who want to kill any possibility of negotiation, were to be put on one side, progress might be made.
  I welcome the Prime Minister's statement this afternoon that if there were any hope of going into negotiation, although it would be a serious problem for America he would not be deterred by opposition in Saigon. That being so, he must also persuade the President of the United States not be deterred by it, and that may be much more difficult.

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  The British Government should make these proposals publicly. I submit that there comes a time when one's honourable, decent, active and private intentions have to be matched by public declarations, and in that respect I greatly welcome my right hon. Friend's declaration this afternoon of his total opposition to any extension of the bombing. That is, perhaps, the most important part of the debate. Although it is only a continuation of the policy of the Prime Minister and the Government, and although it was said almost in passing in reply to a question put, I believe, by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), this forthright and firm declaration is a good starting point for the preparation of future discussions.
  I might say in passing that if such proposals were made tonight, or in a few days' time, before my right hon. Friend goes to Moscow, and if the British Government were seen firmly to be developing such new policies and introducing an element of independence into their proposals, it would create the best possible atmosphere for the conference between the Prime Minister and Mr. Kosygin when my right hon. Friend goes to Moscow on 21st February, and where we hope he will be successful in dealing with many important problems.
  That is what we mean when we say that within the given co-operation between the American Government and the British Government, within the given system of alliances, policies have to be advanced by one partner which may be ahead of those of the other partner. One of the things that have been wrong for so long has been this too close and too intimate identification by Her Majesty's Government with every single action and every single act of policy of the United States Government. That is not necessary, nor does it lead to the desired result. But if these proposals that I hold to be constructive were to be taken up and were to become part of the policies of Her Majesty's Government, I believe that there would be a much more real chance of getting Soviet diplomacy into play.
  There are dangers in this policy, as there are dangers in all other policies but, faced with the dangers of escalation, and with the realisation—and it is this,
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  indeed, that has led to the development of public opinion in the United States Senate and in the House of Representatives—that the only way of going on with the military conflict and the bombing of the North is the destruction of ever more lives, faced with the prospect that even this will not lead to a military solution—which all sides regard as impossible—the chance of bringing the matter into the field of negotiation and the chance of showing that, to some extent, we have some independent ideas and are not afraid to speak out when we feel that these ideas should become part of American policy, would create an atmosphere in which the Premier of the Soviet Union and our own Prime Minister might meet between 21st and 24th February, and, having discussed other vital items of policy, might also agree to coming to some co-operation in this field.
  Once we move away from exploiting by propaganda every statement coming out of Hanoi, once we move away from ignoring the difficulties the authorities there must face, just as the United States faces difficulties, once we adopt a stance that is seen to be much more helpful, the chances of succeeding will be all the greater. The alternative is so terrible and desperate that what those of us who have been critical of some of the policies of our own Government urge is representative of the feelings of many of the people of this country, and not least of many people in the Labour movement.
  7.37 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Blaker: The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) described the statement on the subject of Vietnam put out last week as a serious error of judgment on the part of the Foreign Office. As a former member of that Department, I must defend my former colleagues because, as I understand, the Foreign Secretary himself has made it perfectly clear that that statement was issued with his full authority. I do not myself regard it as an error of judgment, but I wanted to put the record straight.
  I want to add my protest to the protests made about the imputation which the Prime Minister made against some hon. Members on this side when he suggested that they were lacking in enthusiasm for the cause of peace in Vietnam.

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  I do so as one who has served for two years in Indo-China, as a result of which some of the things to which I shall refer will be, to use the terminology of the hon. Member for Penistone, facts within my own knowledge. I was anxious to work for peace in Indo-China when I was there, and my desire to do so has in no way diminished since my return. But I do not find that my desire to work for peace in that part of the world is any greater than that of any of my colleagues on this side.
  I thought that the Prime Minister was suggesting at one stage that we should adopt a new convention in this House; and that the only people who should be permitted to discuss differences occurring between themselves and their colleagues on the same side should be they themselves, and that hon. Members opposite should not be allowed to refer to them. That would be a very novel suggestion, particularly coming from the Prime Minister. However, I do not propose to observe it myself.
  I want to go back and talk about the three most publicised initiatives the Government have taken on the subject of Vietnam, the tour by Mr. Gordon Walker, the Commonwealth Peace Mission and the visit by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance to Hanoi. These events occurred some time ago, but they have some lessons for us now as to how to take initiatives for peace, and perhaps more particularly how not to take initiatives for peace.
  I am not attacking these initiatives because they were unorthodox. I entirely agree that unorthodox methods, if they are the right methods and properly put into effect, are perhaps better than the old-fashioned conventional ones. I think these three initiatives deserve criticism because they were badly prepared and for that reason none of them was likely to succeed. I believe that they have significantly reduced the ability of the British Government, for reasons I shall explain, to take a useful initiative now and in the future.
  I consider, first, what I describe as the Gordon Walker stunt. That had three results, two of which were negative. Mr. Gordon Walker during the course of his tour let slip a careless remark which reduced significantly the prospects of
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  setting on foot a conference on Cambodia. Secondly, he failed to be received in Hanoi or Peking. The one positive result was the devaluation of Mr. Gordon Walker. It is hard to imagine Mr. Gordon Walker, with all his experience and ability, being used effectively for some time to come by right hon. Members opposite in the cause of peace.
  Secondly, the Commonwealth Peace Mission stunt. This also was clumsily set on foot. Washington was not warned about it before it became public. Most Commonwealth Prime Ministers were completely in the dark about it until the very day on which the Prime Minister's new scheme became public. It also came to the knowledge of some Commonwealth Prime Ministers that others had been told about it before. President Nyerere, who was in a better position than any other of the Commonwealth leaders present to know what the likely reaction of the Chinese would be to the scheme, was flatly opposed to it.
  On top of this the Prime Minister insisted on leading this mission himself, although he must have suspected that if he did so this would greatly reduce the chance of the mission ever getting off the ground and certainly of being received in Peking or Hanoi. The result was another complete failure. The Government in Peking described the Prime Minister of Great Britain as a "nitwit", although admittedly only semi-officially. So the result of this stunt has been that the possibility of using the Commonwealth, with all the great potential which it certainly possesses, as an instrument for peace in Vietnam has been reduced for some time to come.
  Then we had the Davies peace mission stunt. Here again there was lack of preparation. No effort was made to see by whom the Parliamentary Secretary would be received when he reached Hanoi. He was in fact, received only by a middle rank official, not even a senior official, of the Foreign Ministry in Hanoi. The Foreign Office adviser whom he took with him was left sitting on his suitcase in Ventiane, and not admitted to North Vietnam. He should have insisted that he either took his adviser with him or did not go at all. The result of his going there in these circumstances and being treated in this way is that it is now clear to the North Vietnamese authorities that the present British

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  Government are prepared to be treated as of little value when it comes to searching for a serious solution to the problems of Vietnam.
  It was said at the time the Parliamentary Secretary went to Hanoi that this was a very important initiative because it was the only means of getting through to Hanoi. This, of course, was a completely unconvincing explanation at the time and we have seen it disproved in the last few weeks by the exchanges the Government have been conducting with North Vietnam through our Embassy in Moscow and the Consul-General himself. There were many other channels which could have been used, and still can be used. This puts the real motive of the mission by the Parliamentary Secretary into perspective.
  We have here a story of three flops. The question arises, whom did the Government think they were fooling? Did they really believe that Peking was not fully informed about all the facts I have mentioned? Did they believe that Peking did not understand the inner significance of the way in which the Commonwealth Peace Mission was bungled? Had the Government no reason to believe, in view of the lack of preparation of all these initiatives that this must have been obvious in the capitals of the world? They are not so ignorant about British domestic politics as that.
  In the light of the way in which these matters were handled by the Government had they any reason to believe that these initiatives would be taken seriously? Did they not realise that Hanoi would be perfectly well aware of the internal problems of the Government in relation to many of the members of their party? Did they asume Hanoi did not understand that the Parliamentary Secretary was chosen only because of his impeccably Left-wing views and his past attacks on S.E.A.T.O.? Did they suffer from false ideas about his position in the Labour Party hierarchy? I think that very unlikely indeed. They no doubt suspected that if the British Government had intended and expected serious results from this operation they would have chosen to send someone entirely different.
  Were the Government fooling Washington? Certainly not. President Johnson
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  is very fully informed about Britain's party political problems. The Prime Minister has quoted in this House a number of times the kind words which President Johnson has said about the various initiatives I have been describing, but do the Government not realise that President Johnson is, naturally, very happy to give the Prime Minister a pat on the back about initiatives of this kind so long as he, President Johnson, is getting what he wants on the main issue, which is firm and solid support for American policy in Vietnam?
  The conclusion is that these stunts have not fooled anybody; with one exception. The only people they have fooled, surprising though it may be, have been hon. Members opposite below the Gangway. They seem to have been the only ones who did not understand what the Prime Minister was up to. These initiatives, with their virtually nil chance of success, were received with rapturous enthusiasm by the hon. Members to whom I have referred, and all the time the Prime Minister seems to have been successful in distracting the attention of the hon. Members concerned from what is really happening in the Far East, which is that the Government are working, quite rightly I believe, to produce closer cooperation between Britain and the United States in defence policy, and from that must inevitably follow closer co-operation in foreign policy, too.
  The extraordinary thing about hon. Members opposite below the Gangway is that they are so ignorant. The curious thing is that they are so ignorant about the doctrines of Marx or the Marxist writings. If they look at the authoritative expositions from the Communist side, they will find that what has been happening in Vietnam—the terror; the pretence that the troubles in South Vietnam are due solely to an expression of spontaneous popular will against the Government; the events which led to the foundation of the National Liberation Front in 1959–60—is a copybook example of the Communist tactics and strategy as set out by Lenin, Stalin, and so on.
  Hon. Members opposite below the Gangway talk about the need for international understanding. I wonder how many of them have made the effort which many other hon. Members have made to understand the point of view of the other

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  side. I wonder how many of them have been to the State Department and discussed the reasons and the deeper thinking which the American Government follow in taking the course that they do. I wonder how many of them have been to the American Embassy for serious talks designed to increase their own understanding, as opposed to visits to the American Embassy to present petitions.
  I believe that the Government are sincerely and genuinely working to do what they can to secure peace in Vietnam. I believe that now they are right in saying that they are working behind the scenes with the Soviet Union to use the machinery of the co-chairmanship. I hope that it will succeed. The burden of my criticism is that the three initiatives to which I have referred which were taken last year achieved nothing useful and have cheapened the value of British diplomacy in the world. I believe that they were gimmicks for which the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister alone, was responsible: I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on what I hope and believe is his success in persuading the Prime Minister, now that the conflict has flared up again, not to indulge in another stunt of the same order.
  I hope that the Foreign Secretary will continue to be successful, because I believe that when a solution is found to the problem of Vietnam it will not be found by meretricious and flashy initiatives of the kind I have described but by hard, patient, slogging, work of the kind which the then British Government indulged in when they succeeded in setting on foot the Geneva Conference in 1954, which led to an agreement on Vietnam, and the conference in 1962, which led to a solution of the problem in Laos. In both those crises the then British Government, by patient diplomacy, played a vital part.
  7.54 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Tomney: From the speeches made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) and the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) two classical points emerge which have a fundamental bearing on the conflict and its outcome. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone employed pure dialectics in his argument and his insistence upon two simple points as a basis for negotiation,
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  namely, the recognition of the N.L.F. or Vietcong as a separate unit and the cessation of bombing by the United States. Then there was the point made by the hon. Member for Blackpool, South about the classical Marxist, Leninist doctrine, which interlocks with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone.
  If there were such a recognition, this might be a bargaining factor for use either by the United States Government or by our own. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said this afternoon that he would not rule it out. With regard to such a recognition, history in Europe alone affords many examples of what eventually happens in any liberation movement when a segment of Communist representation is let in. It is found within a few years that the struggle for which one fought goes by default and in effect a Communist Government has taken over. This is classical Marxist mentality.
  This is the situation which confronts us. It is a dilemma confronting us throughout Asia in general. We always insist, from our point of view in the West, on seeing these issues through Western eyes, through eyes used to regarding democracy as we exercise it. This is no answer to the problems of the poverty-stricken Far East, problems inextricably interwoven with the rule of autocracy, of despotism, of problems of religion. We cannot begin to understand what the solution to these problems is unless the West as a whole—not through the United Nations, but on the basis of a consortium—devises financial, political and economic policies which embrace the dividend produce of the West. This should be a concerted effort, not the granting of piecemeal aid which is dissipated and wasted. It should be a concrete policy of taking forward the articles of government and of commerce, the produce of trade and of industry.
  Such a movement would be a leap forward to creating a quite different society from that which exists in the Far East at present, under which people are forced to submit to certain régimes. Make no mistake about it. This is the strength of the Chinese Revolution. Almost overnight a feudal peasant society was changed into a society with a positive purpose. This cannot be written off, nor

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  will it be. China is a nation of 500 million people which the rest of the world will have to deal with.
  In all the welter of words we have heard this afternoon nobody has touched upon the essential intricacies of the problem, which is a quarrel among and between the Chinese people themselves and the Russian people and the American people. There is the vital question of Taiwan, which is still an issue to be determined between China and the United States. This matter is best approached on the basis of researches into history. If we approach the matter as politicians and statesmen and not as the Press or ill-informed television commentators, we are driven to the conclusion that Taiwan, through its long history, with the exception of 200 years under the rule of Portugal, and of 70 years under Japan, was inherently and completely a part of China. This fact must be recognised.
  There is also the question of the Russian drift towards Western society. This is an important facet of the problem at the moment in North Vietnam. It is the Chinese attitude which is forcing Russian arms into North Vietnam, because the Russians cannot afford to lose face. If Russia were not faced with this problem at the moment, there would very soon be an accommodation between Russia and the West on an ever-widening basis. But Russia cannot afford to leave go. Therefore, China is sitting pretty. This is what Tashkent was about. Overtly, the Tashkent meeting arose out of a desire to settle the war between Pakistan and India, but it was really about the fear of an Indo-Pakistan conflict which would grow on Russian's back doorstep, and the opportunities which this would provide for the Chinese. In the past 18 months, there have been no fewer than 150 incidents of a military character on Russia's eastern border with China. Every one of them has been a bone of contention, and every one could, in other circumstances, grow into something more. This is the real state of affairs in the Far East, and in this situation where does Britain stand?
  In an effort to find peace, the Americans suspended the bombing. It has now been restarted, with the concurrence at least, if not the blessing, of our Foreign Office and our party. One has to deal with
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  decisions at the relevant moment of time. Although I respect the sincerity of the views expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker), I must say that, although part of his speech was historically correct, not all of it was. What we must realise in facing the problems in the Far East is that the West, as a comity of nations, must have the chance to breathe before the conflagration spreads.
  Let there be no mistake about what the outcome could be. If the Americans are forced to go on and are seen to be forced to go on, no American commander, being outmatched in jungle warfare, will refuse to use the forces which he has at his disposal. This is what the Americans are now beginning to do. I think that it is a waste of bombs, but I believe that they are doing it in an effort to stop the advance, through what should be neutral country, of supplies for the National Liberation Front. Any American commander would be failing in his duty if he did not use the forces at his disposal. Purely as a matter of strategy, he would do it, and so would we in his position.
  We must not forget what could happen if Laos, Cambodia and Thailand in their turn were to become the victims—or, from the other point of view, the beneficiaries—of the same type of Government, either by conquest or by overthrow. Whether this might happen may be a moot point, but what is obvious is that, if the Americans are forced to go home, the rest of Asia will shudder and tremble. This is what the trouble is really about. This is why the Prime Minister has acted as he has, although the hon. Member for Blackpool, South, thought fit to ridicule it. In this situation, with Britain being placed as it is, we cannot have it otherwise. Not being able to assume the authoritative voice of a world Power, we have done what we could in an effort to bring about a means of settlement and a return to the conference table.
  Of course, neither Hanoi nor Peking was fooled for a second by what was going on. The leaders of China and of North Vietnam are too realist to be fooled by anything of that kind. They know what the stakes are as well as anybody else. But it is up to us to consider carefully what the House of Commons ought to do and what its message tonight ought

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  to be. Here I adopt some of the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition in his opening speech. The right hon. Gentleman covered a wide range, giving us almost a political travelogue and explaining what he had seen, what he had done and what: he hoped to achieve. But what should the West do if there are negotiations and some sort of settlement emerges from a conference? If there is a Korea type settlement, with, virtually, occupation for X number of years, with attendant investment and everything else, this will have to be undertaken, but it should not be undertaken by the United States alone or seem to be undertaken by it. If it is undertaken by the United States, the peoples of the Far East will once again see the measure of American might both in war and in sustenance, but those who receive charity are never, in the end, very thankful.
  I can well understand why President de Gaulle is being cautious. After seeing and reading about the Vietcong at work, I find it fairly easy to understand that the French had no chance at all at Dien Bien Phu. They were really up against it. Not so many actual Frenchmen were in the struggle—they were mostly Foreign Legionaires—but, after seeing some of these things, I think it obvious that they are very determined people over there and I absolutely agree when the Prime Minister says, as he did today, that this war will not be winnable by either side.
  But, as I say, out of the negotiations and out of the peace, if a Korea-type settlement emerges, the burden should be not seen to be undertaken by the United States. For heaven's sake, let us have a concerted effort to show what the West can do in this part of the world, quite apart from aid, in promoting an understanding of what we would really like to do for the people there for their great benefit and in order quickly to change the form and basis of their society as they have known it for so long.
  We talk a good deal about democracy, and it is said that there are several forms of it. This may be so, but we have no doubt about the one which we regard as the highest form. There is a long way to go before the people of the Far East can have it. I think that it was our former right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale, the late Aneurin Bevan,
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  who said in 1951 that Communism has not made and will not make any inroads into Western industrial society. The truth of this has been proved time and time again. The Russian accommodation, quickening every day, in their slide towards the West, is something we should hang on to. Let this House of Commons make a real effort, on a reasonable basis, as distinct from the putting down of Motions from one reason or another. There is a great task to be undertaken by this House, along with the United States.
  8.6 p.m.
  Mr. Emlyn Hooson: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney). Although I agreed with the whole of the first part of his speech, I disagree very much with some of his observations in the second part. The hon. Gentleman said that we tended to look at the problems of the East through Western eyes and judge them by Western standards. The blunt reality of the situation is that, in many of the emergent countries with a low standard of living, the stark choice is between a Communist régime and a corrupt military junta. This is the fatal weakness of the American position in South Vietnam. They have virtually nothing to support.
  In my speech, I shall criticise, and criticise harshly, the policy of an ally of this country. I regard the United States as a very good ally of this country to which the West as a whole is greatly indebted. The United States shares many interests with this country, and a serious rift between her and Britain or between her and Western Europe would be one of the greatest setbacks our world could have. Nevertheless, I feel constrained to express my criticism about what I believe is the wrongness of present American actions and policies in South-East Asia generally, as exemplified by American policy in Vietnam in particular.
  There are some who hold the view that one ought not to criticise a good ally when that ally is in a difficult situation. There were many hon. Members, particularly on the Conservative benches, who took exception to the violent American criticism of this country's actions in the Suez episode. There were many Frenchmen who took

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  great exception to the criticisms levelled at them by the Americans over their policy in Indo-China in 1954. I do not share the view that allies ought not to be criticised. I think that the American criticism of this country and of France over Suez and over Indo-China respectively was justified. An ally is an ally, not a camp-follower. However irritated the political leaders of the United States may be by criticism from this country—I have no doubt that they are and will be irritated—that criticism ought to be made if those who make it feel that it is right.
  I do not delude myself that the opinions, particularly the critical opinions, expressed in this House are likely to have any immediate effect on American policy. I would not expect them to. On the other hand, I feel that a frank expression of our views may well strengthen and sustain those in the United States—among them some of the wisest, most experienced and enlightened political leaders—who have the gravest doubts about the wisdom and efficacy of present American policy towards Vietnam and China.
  Listening to the debate so far, I have been constrained to think that, at the moment, this country, through both the Government and the Conservative Opposition, are more pro-American than the Americans themselves. One would not have thought, from the tone of the debate, that 30 Senators, led by Senator Fulbright, and 80 Congressmen have themselves expressed the gravest doubts about the trend of American policy in Vietnam.
  The situation in Vietnam is constantly changing militarily and, to a certain extent, politically. One thing that cannot have changed very much for the people of Vietnam is the state of war. They have been almost continuously at war for about 20 years. Indeed, there must be millions of young Vietnamese who have virtually never known what a state of peace is.
  If the aim of American policy is to bring peace to Vietnam by breaking the resistance of the Vietcong, all I can say is that there is not the slightest sign of their present military policies achieving this end. If their aim is to sustain a democratic way of life in South Vietnam,
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  there is no present evidence of democracy alive there. I have no doubt that horrible atrocities are committed on both sides—by the Vietcong as much as by the South Vietnamese. When one has lived in an atmosphere of guerrilla warfare for 20 years, the price of life must necessarily have been completely devalued.
  We must ask ourselves what is the aim of present policy and whether the aim shows any sign of being secured by that policy. It is my view and that of my colleagues that the Americans were wrong to renew the bombing of North Vietnam and that Her Majesty's Government were wrong formally and officially to declare their support. The Americans would have been well advised to withdraw to certain areas, as was suggested by Senator Fulbright last year, to clear and defend these areas properly and to take advantage of the breathing space to rethink the whole position with regard to Vietnam and China.
  The Leader of the Opposition expressed surprise to discover that so much of the land area of South Vietnam is in the control of the Vietcong. The Americans would impress the people of the East and of the West far more if they were able to show that they could clear and control areas in South Vietnam. Senator Fulbright is surely right in that.
  The greatest single danger to the West—and it is a very great danger—from the Vietnam war is that it could have the effect of turning Russia full circle towards the East and destroying its ever-improving relationship with the West. There have been times when the war in Vietnam and the American attitude have seriously threatened to weaken the Russian attitude to co-existence.
  In China's present mood there is no doubt that such is China's hope. The Sino-Soviet antagonism, which hardly seemed possible ten years ago, reflects basic historic forces. This forces—as it has done so far—Russia inexorably towards the West, thus diminishing the possibility of an East-West confrontation which certainly threatened and still marginally threatens the civilised world with nuclear destruction.
  But evolutionary force is such that, instead of Russia and China being able to co-operate in establishing Communism

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  in developing areas of the world, they are competing with each other as with Western ideologies in those areas. To a certain extent, this very conflict of ideologies between Russia and China provides an excellent reason for the rest not to become too deeply involved in certain areas, particularly in certain remote areas, where the West's vital interests are not affected.
  However, the concept of world Communism still exists so that although, on the one hand, there are forces which drive Russia and China apart, let us recognise that there are strong forces which still drive them together. We saw it during the Korean war. It is interesting to note that, except during that war, China has been meticulous in avoiding actual confrontation with the United States—and in the Korean war China chanced confrontation because it had Russian support.
  China would not, I am sure, risk confrontation with the United States unless it were assured of Russian support and it is most likely to be assured of it if the United States continues with its present Vietnam policy. This is the greatest danger to the West of the Vietnam war. It still could conceivably push us back to a state of cold war for many years. It could strengthen the force that brings world Communism together and weaken the national evolutionary forces that for historic and other reasons are tending to pull Russia and China apart.
  I was more impressed with the speech of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), when he spoke on defence at the Conservative Party conference, than I have been by any other Conservative speech for many years. He expressed a view of the position of our country and the issues we must consider in the formulation of our defence policy which Liberals have believed in and advocated for years.
  I would like to quote from the handout of this speech. I have checked with the right hon. Gentleman on its accuracy. He said:
  "However much we may do to safeguard and reassure the new independent countries in Asia and Africa, the eventual limits of Chinese and Russian advance in those directions will be fixed by a balance of forces which will itself be Asiatic and African. The two communist empires are already in a state of mutual antagonism; but every advance or threat of advance by one or the other
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  calls into existence countervailing forces, some nationalist in character, sometimes expansionist, which will ultimately check it. We have to reckon with the harsh fact that the attainment of this eventual equilibrium of forces may at some point be delayed rather than hastened by Western military presence."
  I do not suppose that many Conservatives agree with that proposition. I agree with it as a general proposition. Furthermore, I would apply the general to the particular in Vietnam. I believe that the American military presence there delays the eventual equilibrium of forces that we can hope to see in that part of the world.
  This is a harsh choice for anyone to make and to say, but it is true. It is worthy of note that it has been comparatively rare for a successful Communist régime to have been established and orientated towards China. When it has, its relationship has often had serious limitations. One has seen it in North Korea and North Vietnam. These areas have an ancient history and social structure of their own. There is always there a degree of indigenous nationalism which tends to rise. Over and above all that is the competition, which is natural, between China and Russia for influence.
  It is arguable that Moscow still has at least as much influence in Hanoi as has Peking. It is important to remember what the French writer de Juvenal pointed out a long time ago—that the attraction of the Communist creed for developing countries was not so much its ideas of egalitarianism as the belief that the Communist system enabled backward countries to mobilise their resources more quickly and more efficiently for swift industrial and economic development.
  I believe that this belief in the efficacy of Communism in its early stages is not well founded, but it exists. Communism is relatively a dead force in Western Europe and North America. Therefore, we can expect that the two great Communist States wishing to play a rôle in world affairs will turn more and more to the developing countries.
  Particularly has China this compulsion—partly because it feels itself to be surrounded, partly because it is ostracised—and American policy has a good deal to answer for that—and partly because of a combined Russian-American attempt to cut off China from Europe and the rest of the world. China therefore

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  naturally tries to influence the countries around itself and it is completely unrealistic to expect it to have countries on the fringe of Asia which are friendly to the United States and, at the same time, hostile to China. If they are friendly towards the United States, they are perfectly tolerable to China provided that they are also friendly to China.
  It is flying in the face of history to expect a great Power like this to have on its perimeter countries which are friendly to a foreign country thousands of miles away and hostile to the large country. That state of affairs obviously cannot last. It is arrogant of some circles in the United States not to be prepared to permit other political philosophies to circulate in the South-East of Asia.
  I say in passing that our country and other Western European countries should seek to develop far more links with China and not allow themselves to be cut off from contact with that country by the policy of the United States. Moreover, it is my belief that Western Europe should take great care at this stage not to take sides in the developing Russo-Chinese confrontation. It is very important for Western Europe to maintain links with China and not to be drawn on one side or the other in this confrontation.
  I said that I would try to discuss the position in South-East Asia particularly with regard to the position in Vietnam, but I accept that the old régime now in charge of China as a single group—and this is worth reffecting on—has been in control of that great country for an unusually long time. We all know of the forces which drove those men together—their experiences during the Long March, and so on—but there is no doubt that Marxist social and economic philosophy is their mainstay. We know that they are remote from outside influence and have been little exposed to the rest of the world and, because of their country's woefully weak economic posture, they are under tremendous internal political pressures.
  Like all countries facing internal pressures, they like to have diversionary activities under way outside from time to time. As would be the case with any other Government in similar circumstances, they probably like to have a continuing state of tenseness within their
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  own country and the U.S.A. seems obligingly to help them in this by its policy in Vietnam.
  I do not expect a dramatic change in the ideology of China, particularly while the old guard remains. However, there is bound to emerge a new generation of leadership and we can reasonably expect, as one found with the Russians, to have men interested in good relations with the West. What the West can do is to create a framework which is likely to be more hospitable to an entente with China in the long run.
  I do not think that the United States can isolate China, as it thought it could, and nor do I think that it is necessary to do so. China's attitude is partly, although not wholly, attributable to previous American mistakes in policy. In the past, there have been the gravest mistakes in the American treatment of China and the denial of a seat in the United Nations is among the indignities which have been inflicted upon China.
  I accept that while China is in its present mood the West's policy to some degree must necessarily be one of containment until there is a changing attitude, but, while we contain, we should also be creating the framework of better relations. In view of the overwhelming superiority of the West, the great maturity of our political life, our enormous strength and flexibility of economic structure and our preponderance of military power, the West, and the United States, in particular, can afford to be a little more objective about and a little more sensitive to events which are far removed from our true area of interest.
  Where Chinese aggrandisement conflicts with the West's obvious self-interest, as in the American Continent, or the Mediterranean basin, or Africa, I understand that that is one matter to deal with it with massive military and economic power, but I cannot feel that the same posture is justified when Chinese influence occurs in remoter areas.
  It is the harsh truth that America must learn to live and let live. The Americans must be prepared to permit political philosophies other than their own to circulate and must not believe that any régime, however unsatisfactory, is invariably preferable to a Communist régime. If any of us were faced with a

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  stark choice in any backward Asiatic country between a Communist régime of which we did not approve and a military junta which was corrupt and propped up by a foreign Power, most of us, however much we disliked it in the short term, would accept the Communist régime. That is one of the harsh facts which we have to face.
  This, then, is my view of the Vietnam situation—that this is the wrong place and the wrong circumstances for containment, that the United States made a basic miscalculation on wrong assumptions, that it is obsessed with the idea that a military victory in Vietnam is now necessary for its power to appear credible in the eyes of other countries in Asia. The truth is that if America achieves a military stalemate in Vietnam, there is virtually no South Vietnamese democratic régime for it to prop up. Whom would it be supporting then? Who would govern? The situation is vastly different from that which obtains and which has obtained in many other countries in South-East Asia.
  It is basically for those reasons that I think that the United States was wrong to start bombing North Vietnam again. The Americans should build up certain perimeter areas in South Vietnam, for that would be much more impressive to the rest of the world and would give America a breathing space and would ease the right atmosphere and reduce pressure for possible political negotiation.
  The evil which men do lives after them and in many ways the United States, as we have been so often, has been a prisoner of its past. History cannot be rewritten. On the other hand, the alternative to the course which I have suggested is that the United States should get bogged down in a long land war in Asia, one thing which it should take the greatest care not to get involved in.
  It was said of France in 1954 that she was faced with great humiliation in Indo-China. France has not looked back since she amputated her responsibilities in Indo-China and in Algeria. There is a lesson in that for the Americans, too.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. Raymond Fletcher: It is somewhat embarrassing to follow the hon.
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  and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), because I happen to agree with about 90 per cent. of what he said and it is always politically embarrassing for someone who sits in this part of the Chamber, below the Gangway, to be seen to be obviously in agreement with any hon. Member on the Liberal Benches.
  Mr. Hooson: If it is any comfort to the hon. Gentleman, I share his embarrassment.
  Mr. Fletcher: Secondly, it may be embarrassing in another respect. I fully appreciate that we who sit in this part of the House have been expected by most hon. Members opposite to behave throughout the debate as though we were a detachment of the Vietcong determined to liquidate my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Of course this has not happened. I can understand why the Conservative Party is rather disturbed by outbreaks of democracy. Democracy has only just broken out in the Conservative Party and it feels uncomfortable with it. It must understand that dissent is not a disease, and that no matter how much we on these benches may disagree with the Front Bench on this or that matter, when we come to assess the character of the Opposition and their capacity to form a Government, we are completely and totally united. Although, metaphorically speaking, we take a different route to places like Hull, North, when we get there we strike unitedly and with a chastening effect upon the Opposition.
  I want to make another embarrassing admission from the Vietcong benches. I want to say that I thoroughly agree with much of the approach made by the Leader of the Opposition in opening this debate. He stated very firmly that, before we can pass any judgment on any specific policy or any line of policy in South East Asia, we must understand what the Chinese revolution really was, what China really is, and we must try to find out what Chinese intentions really are.
  When I look at Chinese Communism—incidentally I do it with both eyes, not only with the left one—I tend to place as much emphasis on the adjective as on the noun. We are dealing with a Chinese Government which is as strongly nationalistic and in many ways as solidly

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  traditional as it is Communistic. We can only guess here because I have no private sources of information, nor has anyone else, with the possible exception of the Foreign Secretary, but it seems that the nationalist strand in Chinese policy internally and externally is still the strongest strand.
  When we look at China we see that there is a marked contrast between Chinese words—most of the offensive words are not directed towards this country or the United States but towards the Soviet Union—and Chinese actions. There is the difference between the Chinese strategic bark and the Chinese tactical bite. It fulminates about imperialism and colonialism and calls the Russians Communist revisionists and scoundrels, etc., etc. But when it comes to a position where it is confronted with an almost classic piece of colonialism, Hong Kong, rather than blast it out of existence it does business with it for the good and proper reason that it is in China's interest as much as ours that we should be in Hong Kong. I do not use the word colonialism in any pejorative sense. When China had troubles with its boundaries with Burma it was able to reach agreement.
  There is this constant disparity between the fulminations of the Peking Daily and the actions of Chinese diplomats when engaged in negotiations. This gives us a pointer to the future. I think it is possible in the not-too-distant future, and I tend to think in 10-year rather one-year spans, that the Chinese leaders will simmer down, or step upwards—and both metaphors would be equally offensive to the Chinese—into statesmanship.
  We have seen something similar happening to the Soviet Union. It has been said before in the debate, but I see no reason, since the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery has already robbed me of my speech, why I should not repeat it, that the most important thing which has happened to the Soviet Union in recent years has not been this magnificent feat of putting Luna 9 on the moon—it has been the Soviet intervention into Far East affairs through the Tashkent Conference. This invention was not in the character of an international subversive waving a Red Flag in the one hand and the first volume of
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  "Kapital"—to my mind it is the only one which is worth reading—in the other, with the text book of guerrilla tactics in the hip pocket.
  The Soviet Union intervened at Tashkent as a Power using all the resources and skills of traditional diplomacy in order to act as a peace-maker. That is tremendously significant. It opens up the exciting possibility that in future in the Far East we will be dealing increasingly with the Soviet Union, not as an antagonistic something which represents an alien ideology somewhere in Europe, but as an ally and partner. I cannot foresee any kind of permanent security arrangements being made in the Far East unless the Soviet Union is an active participant in those arrangements.
  This is another factor. It adds to the paradoxical nature of the situation with which we are dealing. We have to think in terms of doing business as a potential ally with one Communist Power to correct the eccentricities, pardonable in a youthful régime, of another. This is the way in which we have to look at China.
  This does not solve any of the detailed problems with which the Foreign Secretary has to contend day after day. He knows quite well that the Chinese are awkward and that at times, when they feel in the mood, they can be damned awkward. It does not matter how many messages go out from this House or from the Foreign Secretary or into the world Press to the effect that we understand their problems, and that many of us agree with about nine-tenths of what they have done in China itself. This does not have the slightest effect on people who move into negotiations with people whom they regard as major allies of the United States with their minds rigidly fixed in patterns which may have borne some relationship to the world in 1900 but which are totally at variance with the world in 1966.
  Very little needs to be said from this part of the House—I talk again about my position below the Gangway; it is no use saying that this does not have as much political significance as geograpical significance—about the way in which I believe China will evolve and the way in which we will achieve some form of security; and it is security that we want in the Far East. My conception of the Far Eastern future is one in which all these revolutions all this turbulence—it

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  is not confined to Vietnam—will culminate in a kind of patchwork quilt of States, many of them in varying degrees Socialist but none of them taking orders from or, in a sense, allowing themselves to be straitjacketed within anything which comes out of Peking. But we shall not have security unless we understand China, and we must consider the specific problem of Vietnam in that context.
  I have never stated in or out of the House—and there are reasons with which hon. Members are familiar why I have not been stating very much in the House lately—that the cessation of the bombing of North Vietnam of itself would produce a willingness to go to the negotiating table on the part of the Government of Hanoi or of the National Liberation Front. I say with some hesitation, because one can be misunderstood, that the question of bombing is of marginal significance.
  Far more important, in my view, is the kind of military build-up which is going on, and which has been going on for the last 12 months, in South Vietnam. An inflow of American men and material at the rate which has been going on gives some indication of future intentions to the enemy militarily on the ground and politically in the capital of Hanoi. A build-up of this kind seems to signal to Hanoi and every other interested party that the Americans envisage an almost permanent occupation of South Vietnam. It is because of that, I believe, that the build-up has had a greater degree of importance in the thinking of the North Vietnamese authorities than the actual bombing.
  As for the bombing itself, I would not wish to be a member of a party which did not include others who reacted violently and emotionally when bombs were being dropped. Perhaps I cannot entirely share their point of view, but if ever it becomes universal on these benches that a matter like bombing is discussed as coldly and dispassionately as a minor Clause in a non-controversial Bill, then I shall have no further place on these benches and no part in this party. I am not ashamed to be associated, even if only temporarily and geographically, with people who react in that way to that kind of situation.
  The Foreign Secretary, no less than other hon. Members on this side and no
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  less than hon. Members on the other side, recoils with horror at the prospect of continued and wider bombing, but there is a case against bombing which is not grounded in morality at all, except marginally. It is a case that is purely technical, because I wonder whether in the last 12 months the bombing has been of as much military value as many people in the Pentagon seem to believe. When we read, for instance, that the North Vietnamese are repairing damaged roads in 48 hours and railways in 72 hours, I begin to wonder whether there has been very much effect on the military capacity of North Vietnam as a result of 12 months of bombing.
  The bomb, as we all know, is not a precision instrument. I wonder whether American pilots, who have shown a singular capacity for bombing villages on their own side of the conflict in South Vietnam, can be relied upon automatically to improve their aim as their planes fly northwards. In other words, is the interdiction bombing which has been carried out as precise an instrument of military power as we have been led to believe?
  I do not think that the bombing is going to make very much difference. If it is aimed at the will of Hanoi, its cessation or its continuation will not make much difference either way. It is the build-up which is important and, if the present build-up continues at the rate of the last 12 months, one can foresee that even in order to hold South Vietnam the Americans will have to commit upwards of 600,000 troops, and the only people who could be delighted at that prospect would be the more militant strategists in Peking, because they are troops who bear the same relationship to the country that they are allegedly defending as flies bear to the flypaper on which they are stuck.
  I do not like to be in a position of conflict with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I know that in politics one has to accept package deals. There are some things which one may not approve of, but one supports the package deal because there is so much in the rest of the package with which one agrees.
  I am more or less in complete agreement with the Foreign Secretary's general approach to Far Eastern affairs, because

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  only two or three weeks ago he made a speech which was far more eloquent than the one which I have just made and expressed a similar point of view about security problems in the Far East. The importance of the Foreign Secretary and of this Government, in a very real sense, in relation to Vietnam is potential rather than actual. It is as the co-Chairman of a conference which I hope to goodness will soon be convened, the Geneva Conference, that the Foreign Secretary acquires a rôle in these affairs, and is important in them, and it is because, in spite of my disagreement with him on detail, that I want him to be there when that conference is convened, that I want it to be a Labour Foreign Secretary who is at that conference, that I accept the necessity for supporting the Government in the Division Lobbies, and at by-elections, and at a General Election, whenever it comes. These disagreements in detail do not in any way challenge either the sincerity or the capacity of the Foreign Secretary, but on this issue of the bombing and the build-up, I ask him to believe that it is possible that he is wrong.
  8.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Harvey: The hon. Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Raymond Fletcher) has not said anything with which I could very seriously dissent, but in expressing hopes for the future he will agree with me that we have to find ways and means of formulating policy so that the hopes may be realised, and it is on the question of formulating policy in this part of the world that we are engaged in debate this afternoon.
  I rather felt that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) seemed to think that this part of the world was all pleasantly far away, and that we could, therefore, pull up the anchor and sail further away still, as he said France might have done from both Saigon and Algiers, and live a happy life in consequent isolation. This is not practical politics.
  What has worried me enormously about Rhodesia is that, worrying as the Rhodesian situation itself is, it has tended to obscure a great many other issues, both at home and overseas, to which we
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  should be giving somewhat more attention than we have been doing of late. It has dominated Question Time, almost to the exclusion of many other topics in international affairs, and in exactly the same way, when we come to the problem of Vietnam, it tends to dominate the whole of our consideration of Asia, and the whole of our consideration of China, and I shall, therefore, not spend very long—I cannot anyway—talking about Vietnam. It has been adequately dealt with this afternoon.
  The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) accused his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary of having presented a somewhat one-sided story. I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman would accept that if that were so he adequately redressed the balance.
  On the question of the resumption of bombing, I join all those hon. Members who have regretted its necessity. We are, of course, at one in hoping that it may soon prove possible to bring the parties round a conference table to end the bombing, the war, and the loss of life, if we tend to arrogate to ourselves authority for suggesting that President Johnson chose the wrong day, that he took the worst possible decision at the worst possible time, we must, as one or two hon. Members have reminded us, bear in mind the position of commanders in the field who see a build-up going on which will cost the lives of their men if they allow it to go on indefinitely.
  We must remember that right through this period Peking almost goaded the Americans into restarting the bombing. The Peking Press suggested that the discontinuation of the bombing was a sure sign of American weakness and of the fact that America had reached the end of its tether, and that one had only to press a little longer and complete victory would be there for the asking for the Vietcong.
  The hon. Member for Ilkeston suggested that if we are to have security in Asia we must understand China. That is tremendously important. It is true that the Chinese seem to say one thing and do another. It is also true that years ago Hitler wrote a book called "Mein Kampf", which most of us ignored, as a result of which my generation was drawn into a world war which might have been

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  avoided if that book had not been ignored.
  It is, therefore, important to consider the writings, sayings and actions of the leaders of modern China. One of the most alarming actions occurred in September of last year when, during the Indo-Pakistan conflict, the Chinese discovered some fictitious fortifications in Sikkim and issued an ultimatum to India. That made it abundantly clear that China was seriously thinking of crossing the narrow gap between Sikkim and East Pakistan and poising itself on the Bay of Bengal, in a position from which, at any time, it could have invaded Burma and gone on through Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia and Indonesia. Indonesia might then have been a willing ally, anyway.
  Then we would have seen emerging the same threat that we saw in the case of the Japanese in the last war—the threat to the great Continent of Australia. It seems logical to assume that Chinese policy must have its eyes on this vast continent.
  It is important to examine what the Chinese have been saying. On 2nd September last year Marshal Lin Piao said that it was China's policy to capture Asia, Africa and Latin America by waging wars so that what he called the villages of the world could encircle what he called the cities of the world—North America and Western Europe—and that the cities would be destroyed piece by piece, some by striking at the head and others by striking at the feet. He made it clear in that speech that China wanted revolution as fast as possible in as many places as possible.
  Foreign Secretary Ch'eng Yi, at about the same time, warned the Arab countries that for them to try to form a balance between Peking and Moscow was no longer acceptable, and that China would be asking them to decide in the near future on what side they would stand.
  In terms of revolutionary activity—and these are not figments of anyone's imagination; they are facts—in February last year Foreign Minister Ch'eng Yi announced that Thailand must be the next target for liberation and that the Thai Association, with its headquarters in Peking, would receive constant support
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  from the Chinese Government. Communist guerrilla movements are supported in the North of Thailand, and in the jungles of South Thailand. Ching Peng, the former Secretary of the Malaysian Communist Party and one-time soldiers in his liberation army are reforming. In January of this year a banquet was given in Peking for the Malaysian National Liberation League and the Malaysian National Liberation Army, who have now moved to Peking from Jakarta consequent upon recent developments there.
  Kang Yung Ho, the Vice-President of the Chinese Afro-Asian Solidarity Association, said that China would give all-out support in the struggle for the M.N.L.A. to crush Malaysia. The Philippines are on the list. Guerillas are active in Luzon and Chinese agents have been landed recently in Icol and Visayas. Again, we have evidence recently of orders being placed by China in Switzerland for rifles and machine guns for delivery to various parts of Africa. It is interesting that they are presumably ordering Swiss weapons because the "Made in China" mark will not be there and the weapons will not be so easily identifiable with the people paying the bills.
  These are facts which the House of Commons must face in trying to understand the problem of China, that China and its leaders have said that they want to see more countries possessing the atom bomb—
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths Mr. Eldon Griffiths rose—
  Mr. Harvey: I am sorry. Marshal Lin Piao added to Chou-en Lai's dictum the other day and coined this phrase:
  "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun and rests on the foundation of war and violent revolution."
  On 24th January of this year Hsia Hua, the chief political director of the Chinese Army wrote:
  "There are still many figures in the Army who have not yet conceded that the party must direct the gun."
  These are, of course, alarming trends and tendencies. We have to learn to live with them and to outlive them.
  I share the hope of the hon. Member for Ilkeston that China will go on saying one thing and doing another. If not, the outlook is bleak for the young people of

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  today as we look ahead in a world in which communications are so different from what they were and a world that is growing so much smaller.
  It is important that the leaders of China should come to recognise, as Stalin did, that world revolution does not answer the needs of the poor and under-privileged, that world revolution only adds to the chaos which such people have to face. China must recognise that it is not the power which grows out of the barrel of a gun which can help peoples anywhere, but rather the power which can come from schemes for aid and technical assistance and the stimulation of trade. These are the things which matter.
  If I had had more time, I should have regretted one or two aspects on the question of aid introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), because I do not think that we can tie it to the political complexion of any country, particularly so great a country as India. Indeed, we should be thankful that democracy has managed to survive and flourish in India, even though we may not all find ourselves in close agreement with the political form the democracy takes.
  These are the things which will matter to the under-privileged peoples of the world—not revolution. In ending a little earlier than I might have done had I been more successful in catching your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, or if other hon. Members had been briefer, I would say only that I hope that the words of the rulers of China do not represent the policies by which the country's destiny will be shaped. If they do, this will be a terrible thing for all of us.
  I would gladly join the hon. Member for Ilkeston in going there and trying to explain to them what we mean when we talk about democracy and what we believe the world can do for the betterment of the lot of mankind and particularly of mankind in the less fortunate and fear-ridden parts of the world, where we must use all our influence to ensure peace and stability and the elimination of the fear which, at the moment, gives us all cause for very serious worry about what the future may otherwise have in store.
  9.0 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. John Harvey) said he thought that it was a wise choice to have a different kind of debate from the many which have been overshadowed by Rhodesia, and there I agree with him.
  I, for one—and I hope that other hon. Members felt the same—was very interested in the constructive speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition when he opened the debate. We are all glad to hear observations from personal experience, particularly when they are keen observations.
  This debate has been extraordinarily interesting, not just because of the vast problems of South and South-East Asia, to which many hon. Members have turned their attention, but it has been particularly fascinating because, once again, it has been shown only too clearly from the contributions of nearly every hon. Gentleman opposite that British foreign policy today is supported by the Labour Government's tiny majority and by the official Opposition.
  After all, what is the Motion which stands on the Notice Paper? Signed by 35 hon. Members of the Labour Party, including two members of the National Executive, it is a very serious one because it asks that British support of United States policy in Vietnam should end. Even the Prime Minister's deliberate hints about an early General Election have not managed to keep the party in unison on this point. Yet the Prime Minister had the nerve, if I may say so, to suggest that this was not a political issue. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman was in his place now because I should like to have said this to his face. I found it very repulsive that the Prime Minister of this country should suggest that some of my hon. Friends were more interested in the split in the Labour Party than they were in peace in Vietnam. I suppose that the real answer is that we had to listen to what was a teach-in of the Parliamentary Labour Party because, to use a colloquialism, the Prime Minister was feeling a bit ratty at the time.
  In many cases Vietnam, this hard and anxious problem, has been debated as if it were only an American responsibility. Little tribute has been paid to the

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  Australians and New Zealanders who are taking as gallant a stand beside them—and absolutely no tribute is paid in that Motion. There has been little recognition, too, of the fact that their battle is also ours, for by containing aggression north of Malaysia it prevents her from fighting on two fronts and it holds the pass in advance of our S.E.A.T.O. obligations.
  The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister were under considerable fire, notably from the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson), as one would expect, for the official statement that the Government understood the United States decision to renew bombing after 37 days and supported it. Of course, it is still not clear why this country was told by the main newspapers that it was understood that the Prime Minister did not approve the wording of this statement. We are glad today to hear that the right hon. Gentleman accepts full responsibilty, but before that we had to learn, again from the newspapers, that he had accepted the responsibility at a private meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party. I submit to the House that this is not just a party matter for the Labour Party. It is high public policy and it has a great many repercussions.
  It is not that we are entirely uncritical of Her Majesty's Government on Vietnam by any means, notably in the manner and method they have used to search for peace. On 30th January, the British Ambassador in Moscow received from the North Vietnamese chargé d'affaires a note addressed to Her Majesty the Queen from President Ho Chi Minh giving five conditions for peace talks. This proves that normal diplomatic contacts are always available when there is something definite to say. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) said, it makes even more irrelevant the mission of the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) and the rebuff incurred by Mr. Gordon Walker—not to speak of, of course, and far more serious, the enlistment of the Commonwealth Mission in full publicity without apparently any real grounds for believing what the Prime Minister described in Canada as a whisper of a change. That phrase rather struck me—I suspect that it rather struck the Prime Minister, too. What I really should like to know is what it meant. Were there any solid practical
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  grounds for this claim? None of us has ever heard anything more about it.
  The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) also has a Motion on the Order Paper. He has been courteous enough to say that he was not able to stay to the end of the debate because he has had trouble with his voice—which I seem to have, too. We all seem to have viruses, which is what the doctors call it when they do not really know what it is—
  Mr. John Rankin: Yours is a political virus.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: If it is a political virus, then, at any rate, it is on the right side and at the right time.
  The Motion tabled by the right hon. Member seems to me to ignore the fact that peace moves, if they are ill-timed or ill-prepared, give the impression of a search for peace at any price, and if one is not prepared to pay the price one does not get the peace.
  What gives everyone in this House concern is to consider whether the resumption of bombing will make peace more difficult of achievement. As the Prime Minister said this afternoon, during those 37 days every possible chance was given to Hanoi to give even the slightest hint that they wished to negotiate on reasonable terms. It is, surely, an old and sad delusion that evidence of peaceful intentions in oneself automatically begets peaceful intentions in others.
  What has been the price of the 37-day pause? I think that the price is that the war will go on for much longer. It has been estimated, for instance, that at least nine North Vietnamese regiments, with their supplies, have been pouring into the south. Bridges and roads have been reconstructed. For the President of the United States to decide to bomb again is a lonely and a sombre decision, and for the United States to care so deeply, and to weigh such grave decisions before all the world, is indeed a mark of real freedom.
  Some hon. Members have said that this decision will lead to escalation. As I understand it, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary can confirm this, there is in this particular phase of the bombing very much stricter control by the Americans than there was before the 37-day pause. I believe, and I hope that the

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  right hon. Gentleman can also confirm this, that there is no intention of bombing either Hanoi or Haiphong. After all, General Westmoreland himself has said that bombing is useful but not decisive, which was also the point made by the hon. Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Raymond Fletcher). Here we have a comparison with what happened in Korea. Many hon. Members will remember that, despite many differing and fiercely held views at that time, it was eventually decided not to bomb beyond the Yalu River into Manchuria.
  I am sure that neither side can win. I am equally convinced that the Americans will never lose. In the end, therefore, there must be a settlement, but I do not believe that it can come quickly, particularly if, as one suspects, this conflict is causing more trouble to Russia than to China. The President has laid down 14 points for peace negotiation; Hanoi has laid down five. Americans, considering the latest fifth condition by Hanoi that they should recognise the Vietcong guerrillas as the sole representatives of South Vietnam, are bound to reject this. How could the United States repudiate their allies?
  In any case one has to remember that in the 1954 and 1962 conferences the actual representation was agreed after the conferences were convened. After all, South Vietnam does not have to fight. They could quite quietly melt away. Nearly 1 million people did not have to go from north to south, just as the East Germans still brave the Berlin wall, unless they felt passionately that an alien Communist creed was not for them. As the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney) said,—I hope I have his words correctly—if America goes home, the rest of Asia will tremble. There are, of course, all kinds of different peace moves. There is Pope Paul and his effort. I understand that Sweden and Finland have said that it is inopportune to join his peace mission now.
  The United Nations to date has been powerless, because North Vietnam and China maintain that the United Nations has no jurisdiction. Some hon. Members have asked why we could not do more to encourage the recognition of China, but even if China were invited to sit at the United Nations we have no guarantee
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  that she would accept the invitation. She has constantly opposed the United Nations and threatened to establish a rival organisation. The Chinese Foreign Minister, Ch'en Yi, said at a Press conference in Peking in September:
  "The United Nations has today become a place where two big Powers, the United States and Soviet Union, conduct political transactions. China need not take part in such a United Nations."
  If that is the case, maybe the Soviet Union will be able to take her continuing responsibility as co-Chairman at the Geneva Conference.
  As he is to reply, I ask the Foreign Secretary what the Prime Minister thinks he will achieve in Moscow at this time in this direction in which the Foreign Secretary's visit to Moscow was, alas, hardly a striking success. We have to look beyond a settlement. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), who said that in any settlement policing cannot be undertaken exclusively by neutrals in the future and that in any policing machinery there is and in any controlling commission it is certain that there will not be success unless the United States and China are part of the controlling machinery. I suggest that we cannot entirely compare the Vietnamese conflict with that which took place in Malaya. In the latter we had control of the administration, particularly in the landward areas.
  I ask what is being done to build viable civilian administration in Vietnam, remembering that over 8,000 Vietnamese from the North defected to the South last year. They must be assured that that act of courage has due reward, because surely the crux of any peace is effective government. From Hawaii it is reported that President Johnson is considering increasing his already enormous aid programme. I understand that by June this year it is expected to reach the vast total of 500 million dollars. It is said that we give British aid in some form. I ask the Foreign Secretary in what form and what is the total we give in Vietnam? There will be immense continuing problems after any settlement in Vietnam. This, I suggest, is the only certainty in the situation today.
  While on the subject of aid, I should say that we felt rather disappointed at

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  what the- Prime Minister said in connection with aid to India, because the £7½ million which he quoted was in fact only £1½ million, because £6 million had been already allocated. In view of the very strained relations between this country and India, to which reference was made, I should like to ask the Foreign Secretary whether it is not possible to give more. There was indeed a plea in this respect by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), who at the same time pointed out in a very practical way that it is very important that India and other countries should at the same time bring modern agricultural methods to their economy.
  I suggest that in discussion of South and South-East Asia the House is at a serious disadvantage in not having knowledge of the Defence Review and its far-reaching implications for our foreign policy. We hear that the Prime Minister has discussed this in detail with President Johnson in the context of our joint worldwide obligations, but the House is not given more than an outline of what is afoot. One is bound to ask whether the defence bill is to be arbitrarily pegged at a certain level, with all that it means to our ability to honour commitments overseas already undertaken; or has the Prime Minister decided that we have certain obligations we cannot shirk and that therefore the end must will the means? How is the House to pass judgment on where we are going and why in South and South-East Asia while these facts are withheld? I submit that this is the time and place for the Government to define their policy east of Suez.
  We have welcomed their support in Malaysia, their refusal to allow a vacuum of power in the Middle East, their diversion of V-bombers to the Far East, and their moral support to the American, Australian and New Zealand presence in Vietnam. But rumours spread, and it is widely believed that the Government are seriously considering reducing their commitments in South-East Asia. Yet the Secretary of State for Defence said in Australia
  "We have no intention of ratting on any of our existing commitments."
  Surely this is the moment in this debate for the Government to define clearly,
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  without equivocation, what they have in mind.
  I believe also that the House had hoped to hear the Government's thinking on the prospect for an ultimate settlement in Malaysia after the changed circumstances in Indonesia, because quite a serious misunderstanding arose at the end of last year. Apparently the Foreign Secretary was reported to have told a Socialist discussion group in London that Britain was ready to consider with Indonesia ways in which the confrontation could be ended. This was attacked by the Malaysian Prime Minister, who said that it was Britain's duty to honour its defence agreement and that Malaysia would not accept any move to discuss terms of settlement unless they themselves authorised it. I hope, therefore, that the Foreign Secretary will confirm that there is no change here in British policy.
  We very much welcomed the assurance of steady support in Malaysia, but the Secretary of State for Defence is reported as saying in Kuala Lumpur that Britain was determined to maintain her military presence east of Suez right up to 1970 and even beyond it. We all want political settlements but only if they will give the same security as is given by our presence. Until then we must honour our obligations, however onerous, and that is our justification for the moral support we give the United States, Australia and New Zealand in Vietnam; for if North Vietnam insists on open war and subversion against its neighbour, or if China seeks to extend her Communist empire, the free world has no choice but to put up a shield behind which the new and free nations of Asia can find their feet. It is as well to remind ourselves that the British presence in South-East Asia carried our share of the burden steadily since the Malayan emergency began in 1949, and, until two years ago, we had twice as many troops in South-East Asia as had the United States.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) when he asks what the Government's whole policy in South and South-East Asia is. At Kuala Lumpur, the Secretary of State for Defence said:
  "There is no question of moving our bases from Singapore and Malaysia at present."
  But does he forecast a Spartan version of an east of Suez policy? Governments

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  of all hues have believed that Britain must take her share of peace-keeping in Asia, and the containment of China is a very different affair from the containment of Russia in Europe where it was possible to hold a continuous line. With China's art in planning subversion developed rather than military aggression, the Chinese influence would have to be contained as much in Dar-es-Salaam, Guatemala or Laos, and I agree, therefore, with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) when he argues that we should work for a balance of power among the Asian countries themselves, backed, I would add, by Western military force and, not least, the nuclear deterrent.
  The present Government consider, as have all Governments over the last quarter of a century, that the cornerstone of British foreign policy is close relations with the United States. It may be that the Prime Minister does not think so, as he carries on such long conversations so loudly all the time. But it is a fact that America, in a matter of months, has shifted to an enormous degree her immense military power from the Atlantic to the Pacific—
  The Prime Minister: I am most interested in what the noble Lady is saying. I have been listening carefully to her speech, and I think that everyone feels that not only is it an agreeable speech, but we have had from her, incredible though it might have been thought at this hour, some fresh thoughts on the matter which we shall want to study. I assure the noble Lady that I have been listening to what she has said, and I think that she is making a big impression on the whole House. She must not think that we would not listen to her.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I think that that is the best compliment I shall ever have from the Prime Minister.
  I was saying that America has, in a matter of months, shifted to an enormous degree her immense military power from the Atlantic to the Pacific for the containment of Communism in South-East Asia, and, indeed, has far more powerful forces there than have been kept in Europe for a decade in the support of N.A.T.O. This has been followed by
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  American persuasion of Britain that British soldiers in South-East Asia are of greater importance to international stability even than in Europe and also that we could afford both.
  I suggest that the need is for Britain to distinguish between, first, the forces which are needed to protect our special interests, and, second, those concerned with Asia as a whole. It is very important to remember that, whatever satisfactory financial arrangements have been made or may be made for Britain by the United States, our policy in South-East Asia is decided on its merits, for nothing would erode Anglo-American co-operation more in Asia than any design which made Britain appear as an agent of American policy.
  Of course, the Indian Ocean—the "pond" as the aircraft pilots call it—still harbours great and special British interests. Of course, it may yet be years before the confrontation with Indonesia ends, and one does not know how long the tension between Malaysia and Singapore will last. Above all, there is the threat from the North not only to the Malaysian Archipelago but to Australia and New Zealand, whose defence has been a primary American responsibility for a decade and a half.
  Australia is changing its character in a swift degree from a huge, undeveloped country to an industrial Power. Although she still has huge unsettled areas, it is reasonable to assume that, in future, Australia will take a larger share in the defence of South-East Asia. It is true that her defence budget and national income have risen to about the European N.A.T.O. average, but only 2 per cent. of her people are in uniform, compared with the N.A.T.O. average of 3·5 per cent. and more than 5 per cent. for the United States.
  Above all, Australia is an Asian Power and her future will be determined by her relations with other Asian Powers. She lives in a most dangerous part of the world, a fact of which one is only too conscious when one is there. Increasingly, Australia's internal social and economic policies recognise this fact.
  Surely, therefore, it is a British interest that, in South-East Asia, we should as a whole take our share in being a stabilising influence. For I submit that British power

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  and influence may be used to ensure that the change which sweeps the world so swiftly today is ordered change. This is the insurance for our security and from its burden we cannot contract out.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): I think that everyone will agree that we have heard an interesting and important debate. If I may say so, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition provided us with useful themes on which to conduct it—those of the economic problems of Asia, the various areas of conflict and the great overhanging question of China. I shall want to deal with those themes.
  It appears to me, however, that at times the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) did not rise to the high level of dignity achieved by the right hon. Gentleman, for this debate, treating of these gigantic problems that will affect us all our lives and the next generation, was to her, so she told us, fascinating because it might cause differences between some of my hon. Friends and myself.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: The Foreign Secretary has not been listening with his customary attention. I said that it was an issue of great public policy when there is a Motion on the Order Paper, signed by 35 hon. Members opposite, asking that British support of United States policy in Vietnam should end.
  Mr. Stewart: The hon. Lady certainly said all that. She also said—and I noted her words at the time—that she had found the debate particularly fascinating because of this difference. What I think is odd is that a debate in which there are so many grave issues is of particular fascination for her as a political advantage. [Interruption.] I shall have something to say about the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) later.
  It may well be that the hon. Lady's intentions and real mind are not as unattractive as her words. We must hope of her as the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. John Harvey) hoped of the Chinese—that she will not live up to her worst protestations. But I gladly concede that much of her speech was important and interesting.
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  I want to take up the themes mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition. The first was the economic theme—the question of the Kennedy Round, U.N.C.T.A.D. and aid. This is partly—and it is a measure of the unhappiness of the situation—a limited theme. It is certainly far less highly colourful than all the other things we could discuss. I mention it first because we want to get clear in our minds that our object must be to create, or help to create, in Asia conditions in which these economic problems can be effectively dealt with, as, unhappily, several of them cannot be at the present time.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Kennedy Round. In view of the developments which have recently occurred inside the European Economic Community, we can now look forward, as a month or so ago we could not so easily, to progress with the Kennedy Round and we may hope for a successful outcome in 1967. I know that it is attractive, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, to consider whether one could do something in advance specifically for developing countries, but the right hon. Gentleman himself knows some of the difficulties of that and that they are not difficulties of our making. I therefore believe that we should try first to see what agreement can be reached in the Kennedy Round as a whole and then if we can build on that special measures which may help the developing countries.
  U.N.C.T.A.D. is a new organisation, of course, and, as new agencies are likely to do today—and this is a reflection of the politically disturbed state of the world—it ran through certain initial organisational difficulties. It is now coming through them. We are making progress with the supplementary financial agreement in which the right hon. Gentleman was particularly interested, and with our commodity agreement. The second annual conference of U.N.C.T.A.D. will be held early next year and we are now considering what would be the most useful form of a British contribution to the ideas and policies of that organisation.
  I believe myself that, despite the initial difficulties which this organisation encountered, it can become one of the really important instruments for altering one of the great imbalances in the world,

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  between the poorer and the richer countries. In particular, unless we can do something about commodity prices, we run the risk of spending a great deal on aid and the advantage of it being swept away quite quickly by changes in the terms of trade.
  It would take the debate beyond its scope and there would not be time to set out fully what is being done in terms of economic aid in Asian countries and the Prime Minister has already said a good deal about it. It must be understood that it will be extremely difficult for us or any of the countries which can afford to help to get the amount of economic aid to Asian countries up to anything which approaches meeting the need unless certain of the political conflicts can be resolved. Nations which are asked to give aid not unnaturally ask themselves whether the recipients will fight each other. There is great difficulty in getting a proper administration of aid if whole areas live in political uncertainty. We must, therefore, unhappily, but as a recognition of reality, pass from the first of the right hon. Gentleman's themes to the second, the areas of conflict which are now to be found in Southern and Eastern Asia.
  Of these, I want to mention, first, the conflict between Indonesia and Malaysia. The hon. Lady was again trying to make a brick with too little straw when she tried to suggest that the Malaysian Government had been greatly alarmed at a report of certain remarks of mine. It will be within the recollection of the House that I have on several occasions made it quite clear that it is our plain duty to continue to help Malaysia and Singapore so long as they live under this threat. If it is necessary to repeat that I do so now.
  We can notice, as a plain matter of fact, that the actual degree of fierceness of the confrontation, as it is called, has dropped very considerably in recent weeks. It is a not impossible forecast of the future that out of this situation—the mere fact that the scale of conflict has fallen—Indonesia may come to realise by practical experience that there are very solid advantages to be gained first in allowing this to continue at a low level and finally in bringing it to an end in name as well as in fact.
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  It is quite right to say, and no derogation of our clear duty to our Commonwealth friends, that if as a result of the process I have described any situation should appear in which this country can help to promote a settlement that will both bring peace, and recognise the rights of Malaysia and Singapore, we should not be backward in taking advantage of that opportunity.
  This decline in the level of confrontation is at present due to the turmoil into which Indonesia has been thrown. We would very much rather that it were due to a change of will, rather than to a change of power, on its part. In the longer term there is no advantage to us or to anyone in having this populous and potentially very rich country in a state of turmoil and civil strife.
  If the Indonesian Government would look for a moment at the contrast between how little it can achieve by continuing this confrontation and how much it could achieve if it wanted to cooperate with its neighbours peacefully, it would see what a profitable comparison there is. The right hon. Gentleman I think used the phrase, "The dead duck of Maphilindo."
  Mr. Heath: I said that there was no great support.
  Mr. Stewart: I think that it was one of his right hon. Friends who called something else a dead duck. The right hon. Gentleman may be making too hasty a judgment there.
  There has been a recent pronouncement by the Foreign Minister of the Philippines that would seem to keep this idea alive. There is in existence the Association of South-East Asia. It is not for us to pronounce what form the association of these nations should take, or what nations should be members of it. That is essentially something for them to decide. If, with the free will of all the nations concerned, any sort of association can be formed, of which Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and others are members, it should surely be apparent to Indonesia that it is better to play a distinguished and influential part in such an organisation.
  There really is a startlingly clear choice for Indonesia. It is between pursuing a quite barren path of military adventure,

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  which cannot succeed and can bring her no advantage, and pursuing a policy of co-operation with her neighbours from which she has a great deal to gain. This choice, in different forms, keeps on recurring over the Asian continent.
  I turn to the most serious of all the areas of conflict—Vietnam. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister emphasised the horror of this war and the dangers which it may contain for mankind. I think that it is now universally accepted that all of us, in all quarters of the House, are fully and acutely aware how horrible this struggle is and how desperate is the need to search for a peaceful solution. Because the situation is so horrible and so potentially dangerous, it seems to me that all of us, at every moment of time, while we may have to take decisions and express judgments, must always keep open in some part of the mind a willingness to listen and to learn from any other points of view that may be put forward.
  I have endeavoured to do that throughout the debate. In particular, I listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker). We all know why he is not able to be with us at this moment. I could not accept without qualification the historical account of the proceedings in Vietnam which he gave. I think that it is true to say that every particular fact which he quoted could be authenticated and documented. In the same way, when the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. John Harvey) gave his picture of China, I am sure that every quotation which he made was authentic. But I do not believe that the total picture which he painted at the end was balanced and, therefore, his speech was misleading.
  Similarly, I do not think that my right hon. Friend's historical presentation could be accepted without serious qualifications. But he drew some conclusions to which we must pay attention. We must realise that there is profound distrust on the side of North Vietnam. In view of the horror of the war, I do not say that this is justification for their obstinancy—it is one explanation of it—but we must notice that there is a great deal of distrust in South Vietnam of what might come if they were led into negotiations and not given proper support. If we accept the point for one side, we
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  must accept it for the other, because one of the significant facts is not only the bitterness of this war but the fearful tenacity with which it is being fought by all the parties engaged in it—South Vietnamese as well as Vietcong as well as United States troops.
  But if we admit that both sides have reason to distrust each other, surely it is at the negotiating table that they should seek the safeguards against what they fear. The more their distrust, the more important it is for them to try to hammer out the kind of settlement on which, this time, they will feel they can place full reliance: for one thing is certain, that if the North Vietnamese are saying, "We will not negotiate because in negotiation we should never get certain points we regard as essential", they should consider, also, that they certainly will not get anything that they regard as essential by continuing the fighting. From that they can get only increased suffering and further postponement of the settlement which, in the end, perhaps, by exhausted men and discredited Governments, will have to be made.
  Is there anything that one can do to remove the distrust? My right hon. Friend suggested two things, both of which are very familiar. First, he argued that if the bombing was stopped, presumably if there were another cessation of the bombing, that would help to remove the distrust.
  One must base one's judgment on that in the light of the bombing pause that has actually occurred. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister dealt with it very fully, and I do not think that I need attempt to recapitulate the whole argument. It seems to me that the absolutely essential points are these. The cessation of the bombing by the Americans was of serious military significance to them. Although that has been argued, I have been into this very carefully and there is no doubt that they imposed on themselves a serious military handicap when they took that decision.
  Next, it was a prolonged pause. It gave a good deal of time for the other side to reflect.
  Third, the time during the pause was not wasted either by ourselves or by the United States who, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out,

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  explored a great many avenues in order to try to get a favourable response, and the reply was unmistakably an unfavourable one.
  We had urged on the United States the great importance of negotiating and showing before the world their willingness to make peace and the importance of underlining that by having a truce on the ground and the bombing pause. Then one had to face the plain fact that they had got a reply that was even worse than before the bombing pause began, and I do not think that one could say other than that they were justified in deciding that they could no longer impose that serious handicap upon themselves when the other side had not made use of what had been a very precious opportunity.
  The other thing that my right hon. Friend thought might help to remove distrust was a statement about the negotiating position of the National Liberation Front. I would emphasise again what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said. Suppose we got clearly and unmistakably from Hanoi the proposition not in the negative form, "We will not negotiate while you bomb and we will not negotiate while you do not promise to recognise the Liberation Front", but in the positive form, "Stop the bombing and agree to recognise the National Liberation Front at the negotiating table, and we will come". Unhappily, there have been a great many reports from time to time that Hanoi would do this and Hanoi would do that, which Hanoi itself has not been prepared to substantiate. But if Hanoi itself said that, in my judgment, it would be right to say, "Very well. Then let us come to the conference table." But I think it is true that the United States could be expected reasonably to ask for some kind of cessation of military activity on the part of its enemies if they were to make that important concession.
  At the moment, unhappily, these questions are hypothetical. They only become real when a voice comes from Hanoi saying plainly, "If you do this, we will come to the negotiating table."
  I have said and I must say again that a very great and terrible responsibility rests on those in Hanoi who have taken this attitude. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South, passed the same judgment. They have chosen to go
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  on with the conflict in which, as we are all agreed, there cannot be victory.
  I do not think that anyone in this debate has suggested that the matter can be settled by a complete abandonment of the whole issue by the United States. In the face of that, we have to ask ourselves, in what framework could it be settled? It could be settled through the framework of the Geneva conference. It could be settled, as His Holiness the Pope recently suggested, by mutual arbitrators or mediators, and we are very ready to welcome that proposal if arbitrators or mediators can be found. I notice that in the resolution which the United States put forward on this matter for discussion at the United Nations the same proposal is made, and our delegate is instructed to give it our support.
  It might be solved in other ways, and here I must take issue with some hon. Gentlemen opposite for the readiness with which they have criticised every move which has been made by Her Majesty's Government to make peace. I am referring particularly to the hon. Member for Blackpool, South.
  Mr. Blaker: I think that the right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood what I said. I congratulated him personally on his current patient behind-the-scenes efforts to make peace, and I congratulated him also on dissuading the Prime Minister from indulging at present in the sort of superficial and unsuccessful gimmicks which he went in for last year.
  Mr. Stewart: I heard the words "superficial", "meretricious", and so on, and I got the impression that the hon. Gentleman was criticising the Government. He has now added a suggestion that there is some difference in these matters between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and myself. The hon. Gentleman is wrong. It is a pure invention, and perhaps I might remind the hon. Gentleman of one other ineptitude of his in this matter. At the time of the visit of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance to Hanoi, the hon. Gentleman and one of his colleagues wrote to The Times suggesting, among other things, that this would not be welcome to the United States Government. I daresay that that was the best guess that he

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  could make at the time, but he was quite wrong. He was quite misinformed, and the President of the United States made that very clear shortly afterwards. I really think that with that kind of record the hon. Gentleman should not pose as somebody who is entitled to lecture us on the right and wrong ways of conducting business.
  The matter is, of course, more serious than that. It is not only the question of the framework and the method. It is the substance of a settlement. I believe that the substance must have as its basis the Geneva agreements, and the purpose of the proposals which I made earlier for conference, cease-fire, guaranteed neutrality, and rehabilitation, so that free elections could take place and the will of the people could really be expressed, was to lay the basic conditions on which the Geneva Agreements could in fact be fulfilled, because at the moment it is not much good talking about free elections in either North or South. We have to get the conflict stopped, and the country repaired.
  I was asked about the part that we are playing. I cannot give the hon. Lady a figure, but our work takes a good many forms—teachers, technical assistants, engineers, police advisors, and so on—and I regard this—and so do the United States and the South Vietnamese Government—as an important and proper part for us to play. The nearer we get to a settlement, I hope the more we shall be able to do in this field, and if the United Nations rehabilitation which President Johnson proposed can ever be got going, we shall make a substantial contribution to that.
  I turn now to the other area of conflict to which I want to refer for only a moment, that between Indian and Pakistan, where the conference at Tashkent played so important a part. We have had two examples in India, the Rann of Kutch and the Kashmir dispute, where it has been possible to get the hostilities stopped, and the important moral to be drawn from these events is, first, that it is possible to halt conflict even when the two sides still retain some distrust of each other and great differences of views as to how the matter of substance between them should be solved.
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  Secondly, it emphasises that it is possible for a United Nations initiative to be effective, for the conference at Tashkent was in fulfilment of a United Nations decision. Thirdly, the moral to be drawn from it is that there can be important fields in which this country and the Soviet Union have common interests, as we have a common interest in the peace of Asia. That is why I do not think that my visit to Moscow was quite as useless as the hon. Lady supposed—and certainly my Soviet hosts did not think so. One thing that we were able to arrange there was that there should be a process of continuing dialogue between our two countries, of which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's forthcoming visits will be an important part.
  Finally, overhanging the whole discussion has been the attempt to make an assessment of future relations between China and the rest of mankind. Answering Questions yesterday, I said that I thought that to speak of containing China was an inadequate approach to a very large problem. It is true that if China attacks her neighbours, as she has done in the past—if, by actions or words, she leads an increasing number of her neighbours to think that they must live in dread of her—she is bound to find that increasingly they will take common counsel for their defence.
  But that is not an inevitable development. Side by side with any consideration one gives to that side of the matter one must try to combine it with efforts to bring China into the comity of nations. I dare say that a stern and rigid Marxist hearing that would say that this was exactly the kind of bourgeois sentimentality that might be expected from a Western statesman. But there have been times in history when the advocates of forceful and violent doctrines have had their way and have failed to solve the problems, and when the patient and laborious approach of trying to do things by reason and argument has been justified in the end—and so it may be here.
  What I said about Indonesia's having a choice between fruitless conflict and the possibility of fruitful co-operation applies in even greater measure to the Chinese People's Republic. Recently, I asked someone whose opinion I respect, and who had been in China under the present Government for some time, what

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  the ordinary Chinese peasant living in the far interior of China thought about his Government. His answer was, "He feels that for the first time in centuries there is a Government in China that is interested in his welfare." I believe that to be an important fact.
  But, as we all know, it is possible for Governments to be far-sighted and constructive at home and aggressive abroad. Scottish Members will immediately think of England. There have been other cases in history where what could have been a successful and constructive revolution at home has been wrecked because those in charge of it engaged, perhaps out of fear, in unnecessary adventures abroad. I trust that that will not happen here.
  We are now looking long ahead, but if the West, with China's neighbours, can show that they are prepared to defend themselves, but are also anxious for peaceful relations—if we can all go on steadily making that clear for long enough—I would not despair of a willingness by this great country, in the end, to come into the comity of nations, and when it does many of the problems that we have discussed today will be far easier of solution.
  Mr. Ifor Davies (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Church of England Convocations Bill [Lords] may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Ifor Davies.]

  CHURCH OF ENGLAND CONVOCATIONS BELL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  Mr. Peter Mills: I am very grateful for this opportunity to say a few words on the Bill, as I do not think that it ought to pass through the House without comment. I certainly welcome the Bill and think it is a very wise move in these modern times—the Church bringing itself up to date and changing some of its ancient customs. I do not believe that it is right to insist on a common life for Parliament and the Convocations of the Church. This, to me, is a move in the right direction, another movement towards eventual disestablishment in some form or other—
  Mr. Robert Cooke: No.
  Mr. Mills: I should like to see not complete disestablishment but disestablishment in some form or another, and this Bill is certainly a move in that direction.
  I believe that this partial disestablishment must come if the Church of England is to go forward to become the power which it ought to be in this land—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am extremely interested in what the hon. Member says, but he must discuss on Third Reading only what is in the Bill. We are not discussing at the moment the disestablishment of the Church of England.
  Mr. Mills: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I stood up to speak during the Second Reading debate but was not called, so it looks as if I shall have to sit down now with just those few words.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Thomas): I welcome the tribute which the hon. Member has paid and I should like to say that this Measure changes a custom which has endured for centuries. It is essential to the life of the Church of

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  England and I hope that, since the Measure has gone unamended by either House—it has had an enviable record in the way in which it has passed through—the House will tonight give it a Third Reading.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, would he give an assurance to the House that this is not a precursor to the disestablishment of the Church of England? Will he also confirm that there is no intention—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. If the Minister gave that assurance, interested though the Speaker is in the answer, he would be out of order.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.

  LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Bill referred to the Scottish Grand Committee.—[Mr. Willis.]

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (SERVICES)
  Dame Joan Vickers added to the Select Committee.—[Mr. Ifor Davies.]
  PROCEDURE
  Miss Mervyn Pike added to the Select Committee.—[Mr. Ifor Davies.]

  LONDON TRANSPORT
  10.7 p.m.
  Mr. John Page: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the conditions on which persons other than the London Transport Board may operate public service vehicles in Greater London.
  I am glad to have this opportunity to discuss a subject which, after taxation, is of greater importance to the people of London than any other—their bus services. There is massive and complicated legislation referring to London passenger bus services, but I will confine my remarks to the responsibility of the London Transport Board as summed up in Section 142 of the 1960 Act, which states that it is the duty of the Board
  "…to provide or secure the provision of an adequate and properly co-ordinated system of passenger transport…"
  This duty is clear and the Board must itself provide or arrange for someone else to provide an adequate system.
  What is so extraordinary is that no one other than the Board has any say at all as to what constitutes an adequate system. It is not the Metropolitan Transport Commissioner, it is not the Minister—for he cannot interfere with the day-today running of the Board—and it is not the local authority. The Metropolitan Commissioner, alone of all the transport commissioners in the country, has not the duty laid upon him to take into account the representations of local authorities which are made to him on the adequacy or inadequacy of the transport system of London.
  It might be thought that the decision as to adequacy or not of the Board's services and the quality of service given is provided by the Transport Users' Consultative Committee, but this body is really no match for the Board. It has only a tiny voice with which to shout, no arms with which to fight and it only has feet to queue. I am not hostile towards the London Transport Board and this Bill is designed to help it to break out of the monopolistic prison in which it finds itself by using more frequently and enthusiastically the second weapon or means it was given by Parliament to secure the provision of an adequate service from resources other than its own.

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  Is an adequate service being provided at present? I will quote from the London Transport Annual Report and Accounts for the year ended 31st December, 1964, paragraph 36 of which states:
  "In 1964 the traffic lost miles figure was the highest ever recorded, over 30 per cent. above that for 1963 and more than double the 1959 figure. The total lost mileage by Central buses in 1964 amounted to about 7 per cent. of the scheduled mileage; that is, 19 million lost miles. This is an indication of the extent to which the service actually provided for passengers on central buses fell short of the service that London Transport had set out to operate."
  It is against that background that I seek leave to introduce a Bill to make easier the use of licensed vehicles by private transport operators.
  To bring this about, the main Clause in my new London Transport Bill would make it a statutory obligation on the London Transport Board to try to find a private operator to take over any service which it found that, for any reason, at any time, it had to abandon. Such services, being part of an agreed adequate service, could not be cut out as they may be now without first being offered to a private operator.
  There is a difficulty here which I do not want to cover up, and in respect of which the good will of the Board is absolutely essential. This difficulty was attractively explained in an article in The Times of 1st February, from which I quote the following extract:
  "Another snag for the independent bus company is that they must not pick up 'intermediate passengers'. Yesterday the queues, standing dripping in the rain surged hopefully on to the bus. 'Sorry dear', the conductor cried, 'I can't take you unless you're going the whole way; you'll have to wait for a London Transport bus'.
  "London Transport do not want the bus company to steal their customers for a 62 bus, which covers part of the route. So the public can jolly well wait for a bus of the right colour. "
  Without minimising the difficulty of London Transport in paying its way, I am certain that with good will and determination to serve the public a way out of the difficulty can be found.
  It is particularly fortunate that at this moment, when I am seeking to introduce this Bill, a practical exercise in cooperation between London Transport and private operators is in action. The satis
  352
  faction that this has given to bus travellers all over London, and particularly in my constituency, and the ease with which private buses have become integrated with the London Transport system makes the ideas behind my Bill—which, when I spoke of it before Christmas, people thought quite revolutionary—seem rather old hat now. Just as has happened in the present emergency, I should like to see a friendly liaison growing up between London Transport garages and local private operators so that whenever a particular service had to be cut out for any reason—staff shortage, a breakdown, or the like—the new duty I want to see imposed on London Transport to try to find a substitute bus could usually be met.
  It is waiting for scheduled buses that do not arrive that angers the travelling public more than anything else at all. I have had discussions with private operators who say that they would like to cooperate with London Transport with a standby service, and that, except in their busiest months of June, July and August, they would probably be able to meet most demands at very short notice. Also, if the attitude of London Transport changed, the composition of private fleets of buses could be replanned to meet the possible requests of London Transport.
  I have letters, and I quoted from them in a debate on 9th December, in which a standby service by a licensed operator was actually offered but was rejected—I think unreasonably and out of hand—by London Transport. The two main duties that I would put on the Board would be to find substitute operators and standby buses. Private operators should be encouraged by the transport commissioner and local authorities to operate in the London Transport area mainly off the routes but occasionally, with agreement, going over the routes.
  I do not believe London Transport revenue would suffer. The opposite would happen because, as soon as people found that there was a good, reliable and regular system of public transport they would stop using their own cars and start using public transport for their journeys. In this way we would have more buses, fewer cars and more warm and satisfied travellers.
  To help make these aims become more quickly effective, the rule which demands

  353
  that all private operators who wish to apply to work in the London transport area are compelled to apply first to London Transport for consent, should be cancelled. This is a disincentive to the private operator. Since there is a means of appeal to the transport commissioner in the event of consent being withheld, it does not seem to have much meaning.
  The duty should be placed on the Metropolitan Transport Commission—this probably would be the most important means of changing the whole atmosphere of London bus operations—corresponding to that of every other transport commissioner in the country, to take note of the representations of the local authority about adequacy of transport services. The obvious candidate for this job is the Greater London Council, a body which is strong enough to stand up to the London Transport Board and a body already proved to be responsible enough to be the traffic authority in London, as it is at the moment in that capacity as a body with a great deal of liaising and arranging about turning and stopping points and so on with the Transport Board.
  I should like to see the Metropolitan Transport Commissioner as the referee in the heavyweight contest between the Board and the G.L.C.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member has the right to make a short speech in support of the Bill he is asking leave to introduce. I hope that he will remember that it is a short speech.
  Mr. Page: I had come to my peroration, Mr. Speaker.
  All these proposals have been greatly strengthened by the experience of the last few weeks. In view of the threatened strike on the Underground, urgent action by the Minister along the lines suggested in the Bill which I seek leave to introduce would be most helpful. I believe that the suggestions are reasonable. I think that they are acceptable to London Transport and to private operators and from the letters I have received I am certain that they would be keenly welcomed by Londoners.
  10.19 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: The reason why I oppose this Measure is that while we all understand and share the
  354
  desire of the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) for better transport services many of us believe that he is not looking in the right direction. What he is seeking is that private enterprise should play a larger part. What I am afraid of is that if his proposal were accepted we would get at best no change and at worst chaos in the centre and complete breakdown at the circumference.
  It would be easy to give a dogmatic answer to this Motion and to say that the hon. Member's party and mine are agreed that public transport is the only kind of transport for London and the right way is to have a public monopoly if necessary supported by public finance. I believe that is the right answer, but I will put the view in a manner which perhaps the hon. Member may find more acceptable.
  No one disputes that transport conditions in London, public and private, must be improved. So far there is common ground. The London Transport Board, however, has special statutory rights and obligations. I have been looking into these. The Board has had these rights since 1933. It must provide, as the hon. Member said, an adequate and properly co-ordinated system of passenger transport. A general responsibility is placed upon the Board. This means at all times and in all parts of the area. It must, therefore, be able to protect itself from operators who might be willing to take on profitable services, leaving the Board with the unprofitable problem routes.
  The chaos of the late 1920s, which I am just old enough to remember, even if the hon. Gentleman is not, when dozens, even hundreds, of pirate operators fought each other for passengers on profitable services but neglected other areas completely must not be allowed to return.
  The hon. Member's suggestion that the consent of the London Transport Board should not be required before applications from private operators are considered by the transport commissioner needs a little examination. I think the hon. Gentleman's proposal is that applications should be made only to the transport commissioner and that he should ask the Board for its views. This is not the right way to set about the problem. Improvements

  355
  must be effected as part of a general plan and this sort of piecemeal tinkering would not answer the problem.
  It is not sufficient merely to say that. I must give one or two examples to show why I think this is so. Another point the hon. Gentleman made, to paraphrase his argument, is that private bus services in the area should be encouraged by the commissioner to operate, not in competition with, but alongside, the Board in different areas. This amounts to a suggestion that private operators should be allowed in as long as they do not compete with the Board. I think that is a fair presentation of the hon. Gentleman's point.
  There is no evidence that the Board will not allow such operators on routes which it does not itself wish to operate or for which it sees no need. The figures I have looked into show that the Board does precisely that already and there is no suggestion at all from the figures I have looked into—if I had the time I would quote them in detail—that the Board at the moment is restrictive or that there is a great rush of private operators wanting to get in. The average over the last 11 years is eight applications made every year, four of which have been accepted, four of which have been
  turned down, and two of which are still operating.
  The hon. Gentleman might say that in present circumstances there is a special emergency, but I have further figures to show that even in the present emergency the Board appears to be handling the situation reasonably and fairly.
  Mr. Speaker, it is being hinted to me that I have no time to quote the other figures I have here. Perhaps I have said enough already to suggest to the House that the problem which the hon. Gentleman rightly seeks to solve is not in fact to be dealt with in the way he seeks. I therefore hope that in the short space of time for which I have spoken the hon. Member may perhaps have been persuaded that there is a sufficient reason to withdraw his proposal. If he does not agree with my suggestion, it will be my reluctant duty to ask the House to oppose it. I understand the hon. Gentleman's purpose. I think that he is going the wrong way about it.
  Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
  The House divided: Ayes 58, Noes 157.

  Division No. 22.]

  AYES

  [10.25 p.m.

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Grant, Anthony

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Batsford, Brian

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Peel, John

  Bessell, Peter

  Hay, John

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Blaker, Peter

  Hendry, Forbes

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Box, Donald

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Bryan, Paul

  Hooson, H. E.

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Buck, Antony

  Hornby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame P.

  Steel, David (Roxburgh)

  Buxton, Ronald

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Testing, Sir William

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead)

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Cooke, Robert

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Corfield, F. V.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Webster, David

  Eyre, Reginald

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Whitelaw, William

  Fisher, Nigel

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Sir E. Bullus and Mr. Onslow.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Binns, John

  Buchanan, Richard

  Alldritt, Walter

  Bishop, E. S.

  Carmichael, Neil

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Blackburn, F.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Atkinson, Norman

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Boardman, H.

  Coleman, Donald

  Baxter, William

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Conlan, Bernard

  Beaney, Alan

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Bence, Cyril

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b'n&St. P'cras, S.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Rees, Merlyn

  Dempsey, James

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Richard, Ivor

  Driberg, Tom

  Lawson, George

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Duffy, Dr. A. E. P.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Dunn, James A.

  Ledger, Ron

  Rose, Paul B.

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tym, C.)

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Silkin, John (Deptford)

  Fernyhough, E.

  McBride, Neil

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Finch, Harold (Bedwellty)

  McCann, J.

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  MacColl, James

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McGuire, Michael

  Small, William

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Mclnnes, James

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Ford, Ben

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Swain, Thomas

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

  McNamara, J. K.

  Swingler, Stephen

  Freeson, Reginald

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Symonds, J. B.

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Garrow, Alex

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Thomas Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Manuel, Archie

  Thornton, Ernest

  Gregory, Arnold

  Mapp, Charles

  Tuck, Raphael

  Grey, Charles

  Mason, Roy

  Urwin, T. W.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Maxwell, Robert

  Varley, Eric G.

  Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.)

  Mellish, Robert

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Hannan, William

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Harper, Joseph

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Wallace, George

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Warbey, William

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Molloy, William

  Watkins, Tudor

  Hazell, Bert

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick(SheffieldPk)

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Murray, Albert

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Neal, Harold

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Newens, Stan

  Wilson, William, (Coventry, S.)

  Howie, W.

  Norwood, Christopher

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Hoy, James

  Oakes, Gordon

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Ogden, Eric

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Mr. R. W. Brown and Mr. Ennals.

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Orme, Stanley

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Oswald, Thomas

  Mr. John Page: Cheating!
  Mr. Thomas Swain: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member opposite, from his seat, is shouting very audibly the word, "Cheating". Is "cheating" a Parliamen-
  358
  tary word which is allowed to be used in this Chamber?
  Mr. Speaker: When the Chair hears something which is out of order, it will take note of it.

  COLOUR TELEVISION
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Howie.]
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: I wish to draw attention to the subject of colour television, and let me say at once that I have to declare an interest in so far as I am associated with one of the main electronic companies in this country.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I know that the hon. Member has a cold, but I hope that he will endeavour to speak up.
  Mr. Donnelly: Certainly, Sir. I apologise for my cold. I was about to say that my inaudibility was due not to the rosy hue of exuberance, but more to the hectic flush of fever.
  First, I should like to say a word about the general position in the world and the situation in this country. As the House knows, we in this country were among the first in the field of sound radio and we were also the first to introduce a public television service in black and white, before the war. We led at one stage. Since then things have changed. The United States of America have gone through some teething troubles, but they have now established a very widespread public colour television service and there are now over 5 million sets in that country. The initial difficulties have been overcome.
  Japan, also, has a public colour television service. It is true that it is limited to a relatively small number of people and is on view in public buildings such as hotels and among the better-off sections of the community. In the Soviet Union it is proposed to introduce a public colour television service next October to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the 1917 Revolution. West Germany, too, is proposing to introduce a colour television service next year, and in France there is greater interest in colour television than there is in this country.
  It is in this country that we are running into difficulties because of the need to take a number of decisions. If we do not take them it may land our various radio com-
  360
  ponent manufacturing industries in serious trouble. I should like to give an example of this. While we were first in the field with black and white television, unless we compete effectively in colour and get on the same starting point as our European competitors we shall lose ground. Only the other day one of our largest component manufacturers had to turn down a dollar order of about £2 million simply because they were not able to foresee beyond that order the necessity to institute the large capital investment necessary to make the colour television tubes.
  I appreciate the Assistant Postmaster-General's difficulties. What are they? First, there is the difficulty of the various competing systems—the American system to which we first adhered, the German PAL system and the French SECAM. There has been a good deal of debate about these systems and I shall come to that topic shortly.
  The second of the difficulties is the question of money and the various competing claims that exist. After the statements by various Government spokesmen in the last 48 hours we are under no illusion about that problem. As for the capital investment side, I can see the difficulty of establishing a new major network and an ultra-high frequency transmitting station. The consumer side is a different matter.
  There are also the competing claims in the Post Office budget. For instance, there is one for the "University of the Air". This is a completely separate issue because what we are discussing here is a new technology and whether this country will participate in it or is to be left behind, and whether other people will start in front of us and cut their production costs, because essentially in a thing like television it is a question of volume production engineering. It is a question whether other countries will be more competitive because they are several years ahead of us, and the central issue for us is whether our European competitors will be ahead of us. This has serious implications for the thousands of people employed in our television industry and for the general export facet of our eletcronic industry.
  What are the possible solutions? I can see some of the difficulties. The ideal,

  361
  probably, would be to accept Sir Hugh Greene's suggestion and allow the B.B.C. to provide a colour television service. But if he were to do this on his own I can see the political problem and the great outcry which would arise if the independents were not allowed to participate. We therefore come immediately against the independent companies. Some are in favour. Some are more complacent because they are able to get by on their existing capital investment. But in terms of practical politics I can see the necessity for allowing the independents to take part.
  We already have the 625 line U.H.F. service on B.B.C.2. We know the financial difficulties of the B.B.C., which the Government have not faced up to. We know the difficulties encountered in launching B.B.C.2. It has cost about £40 million in capital investment but, on the B.B.C. 's own published statements, it could provide a colour service for about £3 million more in capital investment. So for a fractional proportion of the existing capital cost we could have a colour television service comparatively easily, except for the consumer side of it, where I can at once see the difficulties.
  We could do something soon if we had the will. Taking the non-dogmatic, non-political view, despite all the outcries that might arise in various quarters, there is a very strong case, in getting colour television started, to share the existing B.B.C.2 channel. Perhaps in one week the B.B.C. could have four days and the independents three, while in the following week the independents could have four and the B.B.C. three.
  The question is, first, whether we want a colour television service. But it will happen, so the second question is whether we are to have it early and take part in the technology and the export potential, or whether we are to allow it to pass us by and thus find ourselves having to buy the technology at a higher cost at a later date. That is the central problem for the Government, who must face up to it and determine their attitude.
  I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General will say that we must await the Government's White Paper. When will that be? Will it resolve this difficulty? If it does not resolve it, is my hon. Friend aware of the profound implications for this Indus-
  362
  try and the culpability that will rest upon the Post Office for refusing to take a decision up to this point? A decision must be made as soon as possible to resolve the industry's difficulties.
  10.43 p.m.
  Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I congratulate the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) on introducing this debate at an appropriate moment. We know that the Post Office is thinking about this matter very deeply. Three months ago the Television Advisory Committee recommended, after mature consideration, that we should accept the PAL system. The B.B.C. has been giving very convincing demonstrations of both the NTSC and PAL, but, also, has been experimenting with SECAM and the Russian version of it, NIR/SECAM.
  I hope that the Government will make up their mind. Modifications will, of necessity, go on in the technology of colour television and in no case is it truer to say that "The best is the enemy of the good". The world is going ahead. Are we to be left out?
  Britain pioneered the first public television service in the world 30 years ago. I was honoured to be associated with it. My instinct is that we cannot afford to be left out now; not because of the export potential of receivers. This is small. But transmission equipment exports have a very valuable potential. This is a form of technology from which we should not be left out for the rest of this century.
  It would be a pity to exclude the I.T.A from taking part. I recognise the problem of finance for the B.B.C.I suggest, like the hon. Member for Pembroke, that perhaps the B.B.C.2 network could be shared equally, on some acceptable compromise, between the I.T.A. and the B.B.C. This would help to spread the cost and help to solve the problem of the B.B.C. 's finances.
  If the B.B.C. is short of money surely priority should be given to colour television rather than local broadcasting. This seems to be a service which could well be provided by other means, whereas the B.B.C. has dedicated a great deal of effort, time and expert engineering effort, to examining the whole colour problem. The B.B.C. should get on with that and the I.T.A. should be allowed to participate.

  363
  We have heard about the manner in which the capital goods side of the electronics industry has been greatly disrupted over the last year by the cancellation of the great aeronautical programme the TSR2 and other ventures, and, equally, only today we have heard of the way in which the consumer side of the industry has been disrupted by tighter hire-purchase controls. It is significant that in the last seven years sales in the consumer side of the electronics industry, radio and television, have expanded by less than 1 per cent. The consumer side is, therefore, in a desperately difficult position. We must have a decision from the Government.
  This is an appropriate moment. I hope that we shall hear from the Assistant Postmaster-General that a decision is about to be reached and that he will bear in mind the very useful and constructive suggestions which have been made from both sides of the House.
  10.46 p.m.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): We are all grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) for giving us the chance to discuss colour television tonight. Let me say at once that my right hon. Friend is very well aware of the desire, felt widely although not everywhere, for an urgent decision. I say "not everywhere" because some have wondered whether the country should at this point in time afford any priority to a development which, desirable though they no doubt recognise it to be, should not in their view be regarded as a necessity.
  Mr. Sidney Bernstein has publicly urged us not to start a colour service yet. Others—among them the B.B.C. and the industry—hold quite the other view. They believe that the time has come to make a start. They remind us that, after a slow start, colour television is booming in the United States; that Japan has colour television; and that Western Germany, France and the U.S.S.R. have announced their intention to start. It would, the advocates of colour television say, be a great pity if the United Kingdom, which has led the way in many aspects of broadcasting, should be left behind now. They ask why the United
  364
  Kingdom must wait and say, "Let us have a decision."
  Now, if there is one thing which my hon. Friend knows that I cannot announce tonight it is a decision on colour television. As my right hon. Friend has told the House more than once, he expects to announce the Government's decision on colour television when their comprehensive review of broadcasting policy is completed. What I can do, however, is to outline the main considerations which the Government have to take into account in their examination of the issue. The first I have already touched upon; the question of priorities. This is, of course, a constant factor present whenever any development for which necessity cannot be claimed comes before the Government. So I need say no more now than that the question of priorities has to be weighed.
  What are the other main considerations? It would, I think, be convenient if I referred to them under two broad headings. First, there is the choice of transmission system. Secondly, there is the timing of the introduction of a service.
  The choice of system poses a question not only for us, but for Europe generally. There are, of course, the three main systems: The American NTSC; the German PAL; and the French SECAM. More recently the Russians have devised another variant, embodying features of both PAL and SECAM, which has still to be fully evaluated.
  Now obviously, in making a choice the first question one asks is: what is the best system, technically.
  If the answer to this question is so clear as to be by itself decisive, that should be an end to the matter. But if it is not, then a second question is bound to arise; the question of trying to reconcile the varying preferences of different countries in Europe. For, the exchange of programmes between European countries makes it important to secure, so far as is possible, a common European system.
  At the Vienna conference, last spring, of the international body concerned, the International Radio Consultative Committee, the United Kingdom advocated the adoption in Europe of the American NTSC system. But, as things turned

  365
  out, agreement on a common system for the whole of Europe proved impossible. Further, the chance of getting a wide enough consensus in favour of NTSC was remote.
  In this situation, my right hon. Friend thought it right to ask his Television Advisory Committee—on which are represented both broadcasting organisations and the industry—to reconsider the question of the choice of system in the light of the various views and opinions expressed by other countries at Vienna. As my right hon. Friend told the House in December, in the result the T.A.C. recommended that colour television should be introduced on 625-lines only, using the PAL transmission system. This is the recommendation that the Government now has before them.
  I turn now to the question of the start of a service. Industry has represented its view on more than one occasion in recent months that a great deal of money and effort have already gone into preparations for a colour television service; that the manufacturers cannot continue with an outlay on this scale without an assurance that there is to be a colour service within the next few years; and that unless there is an early Government announcement on the start of a colour service they will be obliged to disperse their research and development teams. In other words we cannot afford to be left behind in this technical field.
  My right hon. Friend has a great deal of sympathy for these views. The view has also been represented that any delay in the earliest possible introduction of a colour service would result in our missing the boat on the export of studio equipment, colour cameras, receivers, colour tubes and other components.
  We must take into account, too, the prospects for exporting television programmes in colour, whether in the form of video-tape or film, prospects which would depend largely on our having a colour service of our own.
  But to these arguments any responsible Government must bring what I have called "the constant factor"—the question of priorities. We must consider the demand on national resources to which a colour service would give rise over the next few years. Here, it is necessary to take account not only the additional cost to the broadcasters of mounting and
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  transmitting television programmes in colour, and consumer expenditure on colour receivers, but also the demands that would arise for the technical manpower needed primarily for the design and manufacture of receivers.
  Finally, the particular problems of colour television have to be set in the general context of broadcasting policy. My hon. Friend has raised this particular problem; and some of those who are anxious that we should start a colour television service soon have asked why a decision must wait upon the outcome of the Government's general review of broadcasting policy. Why cannot the issue of colour television be considered in isolation, and on its own merits? I can well understand this point of view. But, on general grounds, there is a lot to be said for the comprehensive review, for seeing the front as a whole and not as a series of separate sectors. What we plan in one sector must be consistent with what we plan in the others.
  When the Television Advisory Committee reaffirmed, as it did in its recommendation last December, that colour should be introduced on 625 lines only, that recommendation had important implications, as my hon. Friend has pointed out. It would mean that, for the time being at least, only B.B.C. 2 would be able to broadcast colour programmes. So, too, would the fourth television service, when it is started. But B.B.C. 1 and independent television would be confined to black and white services until a method of changing them over from the 405-line standard to the 625-line standard had been settled upon. In summary, a decision to start colour television, as I think is appreciated by both hon. Gentlemen who have raised these matters, carries implications for other aspects of broadcasting policy; and it is better, therefore, that a decision should be presented as part of a comprehensive policy.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke will, I think, recognise that, anxious though he is and as we all are to get an answer on colour television, there are these other and important considerations which must be taken into account when forming a line of approach.
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. John Hay: I must confess that the last thing that I expected to do when I came into the Chamber to

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  listen to the debate was to intervene. But the reply that we have had from the Assistant Postmaster-General is depressing in the extreme, and I felt that I must get up from this side and say that the sort of excuses that he has given for the continued delay in coming to a very important decision which is long overdue just will not do.
  Listening to the beginning of the hon. Gentleman's speech, I was afraid that we were going to be back on the order of priorities being the language of Socialism. One would imagine that we were living in some kind of siege economy, where we had to weigh carefully whether we could afford this sort of thing as a nation. But that is not the situation at all. We are a prosperous country, despite the last 13 or 14 months.
  Mr. Joseph Slater: What about the last 13 years?
  Mr. Hay: Exactly; as a result of the last 13 years.
  If anyone were to say that he was in favour of our making the best use that we could of advances in technological matters, it should be the Prime Minister, who largely relies on speeches of that kind for the position that he now occupies.
  Then again, we had the excuse that we must wait for international agreement. If we wait for international agreement, we may wait for another 20 years. Sooner or later, someone has to take a decision about the matter, and I urge the Assistant Postmaster-General to represent to his Minister that it is about time that he took the T.A.C. by the scruff of the neck and got some advice from it.
  We do not want to hear any more of the excuse that we have to review the whole of broadcasting policy before a decision can be announced. The Government have now been in office a pretty long time—some of us would say too long. Surely they have had time to decide what they want to do about broadcasting policy. To my knowledge, for the past six months we have had speeches from the Postmaster-General and from the hon. Gentleman saying that they have to take their decisions on broadcasting policy and that sooner or later they will publish a White Paper. In the meantime,
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  as my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) pointed out, all kinds of technological developments are being held up.
  I confess that I have an interest in a somewhat similar way to that of the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly), in that I am concerned with television from a business point of view. But I can tell the hon. Gentleman that if the delay goes on much longer he will find a long queue of people outside the doors of the General Post Office clamouring for the blood of the Postmaster-General, although I do not think that they will call for the blood of the hon. Gentleman himself. As we are now living in this rather grey world of Socialism, I hope that something will be done as quickly as possible to bring a little colour into our lives.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Mawby: The hon. Gentleman referred to the question of trying to get compatibility with the nations of the world. This has always been the aim. Three years ago I addressed the London conference of the body which on another occasion met in Vienna and suggested that we ought to get down to business, but no decision was taken.
  The Television Advisory Committee has said that colour ought to be transmitted on 625 lines, and our first step, therefore, ought to be to say that as early as possible all television transmissions in this country will be on 625 lines. This would allow our manufacturers of television equipment to have one assembly line for both home and overseas production. It would be the first step towards getting compatability in line standard.
  The hon. Gentleman may say that this would cause all sorts of difficulties, and would involve a certain amount of extra capital expenditure, and so on, but it would put Independent Television on the same footing as the B.B.C., and it would put B.B.C. 2 on the same footing as B.B.C. 1.
  Having decided that all transmissions are to be on 625 lines rather than 405 lines, we must then duplicate the service until people have worn out their 405 line sets. Once that has happened, we must get down to making a decision on

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  the PAL system. If the Television Advisory Committee says that this is the right system to adopt, we should accept its advice.
  At the last international conference political considerations were more important than technical ones, and I think that we ought to consider this matter on a technical basis, rather than on a political one. Why should we, against our better technical judgment, be moved towards accepting a system such as SECAM? After all, our technicians
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  still lead the world, and I would much rather accept their technical advice than accept the political advice which has been given in international circles.
  If we made the set and said that—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at four minutes past Eleven o'clock.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Independent African Countries (Economic Aid)
  Independent African Countries (Economic Aid)
  Volunteer Graduate Scheme
  Volunteer Graduate Scheme
  Developing Countries (Nationals with Special Qualifications)
  Developing Countries (Nationals with Special Qualifications)
  Tanzania (Grants and Loans)
  Tanzania (Grants and Loans)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Married Men (Comparison of 1938 and Current Incomes)
  Married Men (Comparison of 1938 and Current Incomes)
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  Inland Revenue (Staff)
  Inland Revenue (Staff)
  Foreign Currency (Official Reserves)
  Foreign Currency (Official Reserves)
  Purchase Tax (Boy Scout and Girl Guide Uniforms)
  Purchase Tax (Boy Scout and Girl Guide Uniforms)
  Purchase Tax (Modifications to Disabled Drivers' Cars)
  Purchase Tax (Modifications to Disabled Drivers' Cars)
  U.N. Conference for Trade and Development (Target)
  U.N. Conference for Trade and Development (Target)
  Fuel Tax (Public Service Vehicles)
  Fuel Tax (Public Service Vehicles)
  Initial Allowance (Dentists' Equipment)
  Initial Allowance (Dentists' Equipment)
  Banks (Saturday Closing)
  Banks (Saturday Closing)
  Post Office Savings Bank (Deposit Interest)
  Post Office Savings Bank (Deposit Interest)
  Rhodesia (Insurance Claims)
  Rhodesia (Insurance Claims)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Sewerage Works, Avery Hill (Noise)
  Sewerage Works, Avery Hill (Noise)
  Playing Field, Pershore
  Playing Field, Pershore
  New Review (South-East Lancashire Conurbation)
  New Review (South-East Lancashire Conurbation)
  Alexandra Palace
  Alexandra Palace
  North Devon Water Board (Meldon Down Scheme)
  North Devon Water Board (Meldon Down Scheme)
  Newbury-Swindon Area (Report)
  Newbury-Swindon Area (Report)
HOUSING
  New Statistical Abstract
  New Statistical Abstract
  Rent Assessment Committees and Rent Officers (Remuneration)
  Rent Assessment Committees and Rent Officers (Remuneration)
ZAMBIA
  Assistance
  Assistance
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Commonwealth Secretariat (Administrative Officers)
  Commonwealth Secretariat (Administrative Officers)
  High Commissioners, Africa
  High Commissioners, Africa
  East and Central Africa (Famine Relief)
  East and Central Africa (Famine Relief)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  British Museum (Hebrew Books)
  British Museum (Hebrew Books)
  National Youth Orchestra
  National Youth Orchestra
  H.M. Inspectorate of Schools (Appointments)
  H.M. Inspectorate of Schools (Appointments)
TRANSPORT
  Multi-storey Car Park, Bristol (Loan Sanction)
  Multi-storey Car Park, Bristol (Loan Sanction)
ROADS
  Shoreham Toll Bridge (Walk-way)
  Shoreham Toll Bridge (Walk-way)
  Improvement of Inter-urban Routes (Study)
  Improvement of Inter-urban Routes (Study)
BOARD OF TRADE
  Investment Grants
  Investment Grants
  Fairfields (Glasgow) Ltd.
  Fairfields (Glasgow) Ltd.
  HONG KONG (U.S. FLEET)
  HONG KONG (U.S. FLEET)
  MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SPEECH)
  MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SPEECH)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Police Forces (Resignations)
  Police Forces (Resignations)
SWAZILAND
  Budgetary Grants
  Budgetary Grants
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Hill Cow and Hill Sheep Subsidies
  Hill Cow and Hill Sheep Subsidies
  Agricultural Workers (Earnings)
  Agricultural Workers (Earnings)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Zambia
  Zambia
  Tanzania (Supply Lift)
  Tanzania (Supply Lift)
  Home Defence Force (Northern Ireland Personnel)
  Home Defence Force (Northern Ireland Personnel)
  Beira (Royal Navy)
  Beira (Royal Navy)
  Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations (Civilian Employees)
  Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations (Civilian Employees)
  United States B52 Aircraft (Crash)
  United States B52 Aircraft (Crash)
  Army Volunteer Reserve
  Army Volunteer Reserve
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Bread and Flour (Discussions)
  Bread and Flour (Discussions)
  Soaps and Detergents (Discussions)
  Soaps and Detergents (Discussions)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  West Midlands Electricity Board (Advertising Ban)
  West Midlands Electricity Board (Advertising Ban)
  Gas and Electricity Industries (Expenditure on Fixed Assets)
  Gas and Electricity Industries (Expenditure on Fixed Assets)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  National Health Service (Income)
  National Health Service (Income)
  Population (Rugeley and Armitage)
  Population (Rugeley and Armitage)
HOSPITALS
  Change of Administration
  Change of Administration
  Road Traffic Act, 1960
  Road Traffic Act, 1960
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  B.B.C. 2 (Northumberland and Durham)
  B.B.C. 2 (Northumberland and Durham)
  Colour Television
  Colour Television
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Damaged Kiosks (Derbyshire)
  Damaged Kiosks (Derbyshire)
POST OFFICE
  New Post Office, Airdrie
  New Post Office, Airdrie
  Parcel (Delay)
  Parcel (Delay)
SCOTLAND
  Fishery Protection Fleet
  Fishery Protection Fleet
  Chronic Sick
  Chronic Sick
  Population (Age Groups)
  Population (Age Groups)
  Population (Regional Hospital Board Areas)
  Population (Regional Hospital Board Areas)
  Hospitals, Edinburgh (Consultants)
  Hospitals, Edinburgh (Consultants)
  Agricultural Workers (Earnings)
  Agricultural Workers (Earnings)
  Houses (Completions)
  Houses (Completions)
TECHNOLOGY
  Machine Tools
  Machine Tools
  Departmental Staff
  Departmental Staff

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark

PEDESTRIANS AND TRAFFIC LIGHTS
2.35 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the result of their investigation into the problem of pedestrians being unsighted at traffic lights and the installation of "Wait" and "Cross" signs to overcome this difficulty in the interest of road safety.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF POWER (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, as I have said before, we should be glad to take up with the highway authority concerned any particular cases where this problem may exist. We are still examining the possibility of including in more traffic signals some signs to tell pedestrians that they should wait or cross. Since we have to consider other claims on the expenditure of funds for pedestrian safety, I cannot yet say what the outcome of this examination will be. As soon as I am able I will write to the noble Lady.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I pay him the compliment of hoping he thinks that that Answer is as unsatisfactory as I do? And might I ask him, in connection with what he said, whether the actual examples I have already given to him in this House and in correspondence could be dealt with without my repeating them?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend, who has given a tremendous
636
amount of time, thought and energy to the problem of road safety, not only in this House but in another place as well. One of the problems now is that local government, and its committee system, leads to greater consideration and discussion by a larger number of persons. It also tends perhaps to lead to a little delay, and I am sorry that I have been unable to keep the promise I made to the noble Lady on January 26, that I hoped to be able to give her a definite answer to-day. But as soon as I can, I will do so.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in view of that very successful piece of stonewalling, I had better leave the matter to the next occasion?

SPEED LIMIT ADVERTISEMENTS
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why payments have been made for advertisements in national newspapers to endeavour to convince the public that a 70 m.p.h. speed limit is a desirable measure on all roads before the experiment has even been carried out.]
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the purpose of the Press advertisements was to stimulate interest and discussion and thereby knowledge and observance of the statutory requirement.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, in that case would the noble Lord say why this advertisement should bear, to anybody who has any understanding of the English language, a strong slant that the decision of the Government to introduce this experiment was necessarily right? Because that is the meaning of these words. And since public money must have been involved in this advertising, should it not have come later, when the experiment was finished?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, part of the noble Lord's question really relates to his second Question on the Order Paper, but may I make it quite clear that the National Opinion Poll was not a Government poll sponsored by Her Majesty's Government? It was carried

637
out independently by N.O.P., and I would suggest, with the greatest respect, that it is not unusual for noble Lords on either side of the House to take advantage of information which is suitable to their case. That is what the Government did on this occasion. The National Opinion Poll took its survey, publicised the results, and the Government took advantage of it in their propaganda.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if I trespassed into the realms of the second Question, but may I ask him whether he does not realise that anyone reading this advertisement would consider the issue prejudged by the Government?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I think not. The problem was that here we had a statutory requirement for the observance of the law of the country. So far as classified roads were concerned, there were no 70 m.p.h. limit signs erected, and the purpose of the Government was to make sure as far as humanly possible that every motorist knew of the 70 m.p.h. limit on both classified roads and motorways. In spite of that, the noble Lord may have noticed that in one of the first prosecutions, in Leicestershire, the defence was that the defendant did not know there was a 70 m.p.h. limit.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, while recognising the desirability that everyone should be as fully informed as possible of any changes that may be made in the law, does the noble Lord appreciate that that is not as I understand it, the complaint made? The complaint made is that in doing that, efforts were made by the wording of the advertisement to convince people that the decision of the Government was right, before the public had had any opportunity of judging. Is not that another instance of the Government trying to prejudice public opinion in their favour to prevent the public from forming a fair conclusion on their efforts?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, in the first place, unless the Government had thought it right to undertake this experiment they would not have done so. Because they thought it right to do so they undertook the experiment, and therefore called the attention of as many
638
people as possible to the fact that an infringement of the 70 m.p.h. limit would be breaking the law. This is an experiment and one just as genuine as the 50 m.p.h. limit experiment which was carried out by the previous Government, of which the noble Lord who originated this Question was a distinguished and effective member.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I should like to ask a final supplementary question. May I ask the noble Lord just to make the matter clear, whether he is aware that I applaud the publicity used in endeavouring to bring this matter to the attention of the public? It is the terms in which it is made of which I am complaining. Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware—which he cannot be, but whether he will now become aware—that arising from his answer there comes another most interesting question which I shall have pleasure in putting down later in the afternoon?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, could the Minister give us the figure for the total cost of this publicity?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the total cost was £75,000. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, I have here a copy of the advertisement, and one really must appreciate that it is not merely the question of the 70 m.p.h. limit but also an attempt to influence motorists to reduce speed to 30 miles an hour in fog when the flashing amber lights are on. Reading it again, I think it is good, sound common sense.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that while I should like to accept what he says, all the facts, apart from the explanation in the right-hand corner of the advertisement, are confined to the 70 m.p.h. limit?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, could I ask the noble Lord whether the Ministry of Transport has to obtain Treasury sanction for the expenditure of £75,000 for this advertising?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, as I understand it, and subject to correction, there is an allocation within the Ministry which is available for the use of the Minister and the Department at their discretion. Expenditure over this allocation, for

639
special features such as drink and driving at Christmas, et cetera, must have Treasury sanction. But I think this was within the departmental allocation.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Could the noble Lord tell the House what the allocation is?
LORD LINDGREN: Not without notice.

NATIONAL OPINION POLL ON 70 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT
2.43 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the arrangement made by the Minister of Transport to conduct a National Opinion Poll concerning the 70 m.p.h. speed limit experiment and to publicise the results is a precedent which will be followed in respect of actions proposed or taken by other Ministers.]
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the survey was carried out by the National Opinion Poll on their own initiative and not at the instigation of the Government. The results of the survey were incorporated in the Press advertising to give it topical interest.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, are we to understand that this survey was completely without any form of instigation or push on the part of Her Majesty's Government?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, my Lords.
LORD CHESHAM: Having learned that, may I now ask whether the Government would still have used it if the sense had been contrary?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, it is not unknown for a politician to use such information as furthers his own case, and to neglect information which is against him. I have done it on many occasions, and I am certain that the noble Lord has as well.

LAW SOCIETY AND COMPLAINTS CONCERNING SOLICITORS
2.44 p.m.
LORD FOLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Law Society have published statements to the effect that they receive many thousands of complaints every year regarding the conduct of solicitors; and whether they can reconcile this information with a statement made on December 13, 1965, by the Lord Chancellor in this House that in the current year to that date the Disciplinary Committee considered complaints involving only 22 solicitors out of which 14 were found to be justified in whole or in part and applications to the Disciplinary Committee were made by the Law Society itself in respect of 14 solicitors.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, as I stated in my reply to the noble Lord on December 16 last, the number of complaints received by the Law Society in any year is not a matter falling within the sphere of ministerial responsibility. The Law Society have, however, informed me that they receive a large number of complaints annually, many of which relate to persons and matters which are in no way their concern. All complaints which appear to reflect on the professional conduct of a solicitor are investigated by the Society, but the great majority are found to be without foundation.
In answer to the second part of the noble Lord's Question, there is no discrepancy between the information which I gave to the House on December 16 last, as to the number of complaints received by the Disciplinary Committee and the number of complaints regarding the conduct of solicitors received by the Law Society. Only a small proportion of the latter are of the kind which require consideration by the Disciplinary Committee.
LORD FOLEY: My Lords, while thanking the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his Answer, I should

641
like to ask a short supplementary. Although the number of complaints received by the Law Society concerning behaviour of solicitors is undoubtedly trivial, does he not consider that there is altogether too great a disparity in these figures. Does he not consider that the costly and tedious procedure for submitting facts, by way of affidavits, direct to the Disciplinary Committee prevents many hundreds of cases of prima facie evidence of misconduct from ever reaching the Disciplinary Committee?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, my Lords; I do not think so. It must be remembered that the Disciplinary Committee can be approached not merely through the Law Society but direct. Any private citizen can make a complaint direct to the Disciplinary Committee, who are not appointed by the Law Society but by the Master of the Rolls. If the Law Society had not put before the Disciplinary Committee complaints which they should have done, there would have been an increase in the complaints put forward by private citizens; and that has not been the case.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, at a suitable moment after 3.30 two Statements will be made. The first will be made by my noble friend the Leader of the House, on the setting up of a Committee to inquire into the home Civil Service. The second will be made by my noble friend Lord Shepherd, on expenditure on national projects.

YORKSHIRE REGISTRIES AMEND MENT BILL [H.L.]
2.48 p.m.
Read 2, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

WHITLEY BAY PIER BILL [H.L.]
Read 2, and referred to the Examiners.
ROYAL ALBERT HALL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2, and referred to the Examiners.
LOUGHBOROUGH UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY BILL [H.L.]
Read 2, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

MINES (WORKING FACILITIES AND SUPPORT) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (on Recommitment) (according to Order), on report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (on Recommitment) (according to Order), on report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

COMMONWEALTH SECRETARIAT BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

PROTECTION OF CONSUMERS (TRADE DESCRIPTIONS) BILL [H.L.]
2.54 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, as your Lordships are well aware, the question of consumer protection is one which is very near to my heart. It is therefore not only a privilege but also a great personal pleasure to me to have the opportunity of opening this debate this afternoon for the purpose of putting on to the Statute Book what may well be one of the most momentous pieces of legislation of this century for the protection of the consumer.
I know that this Bill will be welcomed on all sides of the House, and certainly by organisations such as the consumer organisations, the Citizens' Advice

643
Bureaux, the British Standards Institution, and most certainly by all the women's organizations, The Protection of Consumers (Trade Descriptions) Bill is based largely on the recommendations of the Molony Committee on Consumer Protection, and your Lordships will remember that one of their recommendations was that the language of the existing legislation should be simplified. We must, I think, commend the Parliamentary draftsman who has so ably carried out this particular recommendation. We must not, however, be deluded by the slenderness of the Bill into thinking that it has little substance. It is a very substantial dish indeed and contains a great deal of meat In the short time available to me this afternoon I cannot possibly do justice to all that it contains. I shall, therefore, with your Lordships' permission, attempt only to sketch out the broad pattern of the proposed legislation. We shall have ample time, I hope, to go into greater detail at a later stage.
The point of departure for the new legislation is, of course, the present merchandise marks legislation, with its prohibitions on the use of false or misleading trade descriptions on goods. The Bill will carry this theme forward. It will continue the offence of applying a false trade description to goods and the accompanying offence of selling goods to which a false trade description is applied. The matters which may be the subject of a trade description, however, have been extended and now cover all physical characteristics of goods or other details which can be checked as matters of fact, such as age or previous history. We have also tried to deal with false claims to compliance with standards whether these exist or not. And we have introduced some very special provisions about that particular nuisance, dual pricing. All these provisions should go a long way towards protecting the ordinary shopper—I prefer the word "shopper" to "consumer."
I must now mention one matter which I know already from Press reports is likely to be contentious. The Bill goes beyond the present legislation in making oral misdescription of goods an offence. I cannot enter into lengthy argument here—the time for that will no doubt come later, I should, however like to make
644
two points. The first is that this provision simply brings the Bill into line with the Food and Drugs Act 1955 and the Weights and Measures Act 1963. In fact, to penalise oral misdescription is not an innovation. Secondly, if the dangers of shop assistants misleading the consumer are so great as Press reports might have us believe, is it not time the consumer received some protection against them? After all, the seller is in general not required to give information with the goods when he is making a sale. If he chooses to volunteer information, he ought surely to be expected to get it right.
Now I come to descriptions of goods in advertisements. For a long time it has been clear that in this respect the law has been deficient. The position has been, and still is, the peculiar one that, however false or misleading a description in an advertisement might be, a prosecution can be brought only if a direct link can be established between particular goods and a particular advertisement. In other words, the purchaser has to refer to the advertisement for the goods in such a way when making the purchase as to make it quite clear that the description in that advertisement relates to those goods. Clearly, since the ordinary purchaser cannot really be expected to understand all the intricacies of the law, this can happen—apart from mail order purchases—in only the rarest cases, and then probably merely by chance. Yet the buyer may well have been influenced to buy the goods by a description seen in an advertisement. If this happens to be a false or misleading trade description, and he is therefore disappointed in the goods, as the law stands nothing can be done about it. We hope to tidy up this position in the Bill by making it explicit that false trade descriptions relating to goods in advertisements at large shall be subject to the provisions of the Bill. We recognise that, from the advertisers' point of view, this could give rise to a number of practical and technical difficulties. We have tried to mitigate these by providing guidance for the courts as to the matters to be taken into account when considering an action brought relating to an advertisement. But, in the interests of the consumer, we must bring advertisements at large within the scope of legislation.

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This brings me to the next point to which I must draw your Lordships' attention, and I refer to statements about services. The Molony Committee did not tackle the problem of services, not from lack of interest, nor from lack of complaint, but simply because a full-scale investigation into complaints about services would have involved them in a mammoth task and delayed their Report unduly. The Government, however, have seen and heard enough about the shortcomings of some suppliers of some services—I must emphasise that we are not making a general criticism of all who supply services—to decide that an attempt must be made in this Bill to give the consumer protection in the field of services comparable with that which the Bill will give him in the field of goods. This is a tricky area to venture into. When one is dealing with goods, the goods have a physical existence and can be examined to see whether they comply with a trade description. A service is something nebulous: its performance can be judged only after the event, and many factors can enter into such an assessment. The matter at issue may simply be one of non-fulfilment of contract.
This Bill is not the right medium to deal with that question. To keep within the general pattern of the Bill, we think we must rely on the central theme of misdescription, which, when related to an offer to supply a service, implies some intention in the mind of the supplier. We have therefore made the offence relating to statements about services—but only about services—one of knowingly or recklessly making a false statement as to the matters set out in Clause 13 of the Bill. This will throw a burden of proof of intent or recklessness on to the prosetion; but in this very new field we think this is not unreasonable. Moreover, it should help the operator who is not sure whether for the purposes of the Bill he is offering a service or not, to know that if he is acting and speaking honestly he has no need to worry.
Before I leave the misdescription aspect of the Bill, I should refer to one other new feature. I know that many of your Lordships will be pleased to see that we have introduced specific provisions to deal with the nuisance (to use a very mild term) of dual pricing. It is not, of course, our intention to inhibit manufacturers or traders who genuinely want to make price
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reductions from claiming credit for them. Indeed, we should like to see a great deal more of this. But we have introduced certain criteria against which any claim to a price reduction must be measured. Claims which fall short of these criteria will be exposed to the penalties in the Bill. We have also dealt with the irritating but none the less deceptive practice of making the price large and part of the statement of the quantity small, so that the customer thinks he is being offered more for his money than is the case. Under the Bill, this will be an offence subject to the maximum penalty.
I now turn from the misdescription provisions of the Bill to deal with its positive requirements. At present, although a number of Statutes contain provisions which enable marking to be required for particular goods, as in the Food and Drugs Act, or for particular purposes, as under the Merchandise Marks Act 1926, there is no single power to require marking of goods in general. The Molony Committee thought the consumer's interest in having correct information, instructions or warnings about the goods lie purchases demanded that such a power be created, although the Committee hoped that the enlightened policy of manufacturers in introducing voluntary labelling would make its exercise a rare necessity. We have accepted this reasoning, and the Bill contains the necessary power to require classes of goods to be marked with prescribed information. Like the Molony Committee, we hope that we shall need to use it rarely, and only when there is a clear consumer demand. I am sure the noble Baroness opposite, Lady Elliot of Harwood, who is Chairman of the Consumer Council, will be telling us later about the labelling scheme, of which I already have some knowledge, which the Council is developing. We all look forward to seeing the first Teltag label in the shops. Whether it is through this scheme or in some other way, the Government hope that manufacturers will do even more in the future than the progressives are doing to-day to tell the consumer about the goods he buys. Nevertheless, we think it right that there should be a compulsory power in the background.
I have already mentioned the Merchandise Marks Act 1926 in this connection. This Act contains power, subject to the conditions laid down in

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the Act, to require imported goods to be marked with an indication of origin. Since the new legislation will contain a general labelling power, there seems little point in retaining a separate power relating only to marking with origin. The Merchandise Marks Act 1926 will therefore disappear, and origin marking will be treated as any other form of marking under the Bill. I think my noble friend will be developing this point at a later stage. I am concerned here merely to put before your Lordships the structure of the Bill.
The Molony Committee also recommended that the Board of Trade should have a power to give a statutory meaning to terms used in trade and as trade description where such definitions would seem to be in the consumers' interest. The Bill provides such a power in relation to both goods and services. This does not mean, of course, that if a term were defined its use would be obligatory, but only that, if it is used, the goods or services must comply with the statutory definition if its use is not to constitute an offence. As a corollary to the marking and definition powers, we are proposing a power to require advertisements for goods to carry specified information, whether or not there is a marking order in force in relation to the goods advertised. This could serve, for instance, to give the public information or warnings where it was impracticable to do this on the goods themselves.
I shall not trouble your Lordships with all the other matters of detail, important though they are, with which we shall have time to deal more fully later. I cannot close my introduction to this Bill, however, without referring briefly to one of its most important provisions, that of enforcement by the local authorities. The Molony Committee found that one of the great weaknesses of the present legislation was the lack of enforcement. We are remedying this by placing a duty to enforce on those local authorities who are already weights and measures authorities for the purposes of the Weights and Measures Act 1963. In Northern Ireland the Ministry of Commerce will assume this duty. This will leave no doubt in anybody's mind that the Government intend this legislation really to be effective on behalf of the shopper.
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As I said earlier in my speech, this is a major Bill. I have had to scamper through its main provisions in order to give the House some impression of its pattern and its content. I hope that our later discussion will help to fill some of the gaps, which I have been forced to leave in order that we shall have time for the fruitful discussion which I am sure is ahead of us. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2—(Baroness Phillips.)
3.10 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I should like first of all to congratulate the noble Lady on her performance to-day, and to welcome her to the Box on the other side of the House. If I may say so, she has enlightened the House on the way in which the Government are proposing to operate this Bill, as well as setting out its main provisions. She has, if I may say so, made the dish which the Bill offers appear very appetising, and I think I shall be speaking for the whole House when I not only express a welcome to the Bill, but also express a welcome to the noble Baroness.
This is a second of three measures to bring the law up to date, in so far as it seeks to protect the customer from being cheated or deceived. There is nothing new, of course, in the conception that the customer should be protected by the criminal law as well as by his right of redress against the seller for damage due to fraud or negligence. Both are important. Your Lordships will agree that it is right that it should be an offence to cheat a customer by making false and misleading statements about the goods or services which he is offered. It is also right that the law should presume that the person who offers goods for sale should take due care to ensure that the statements he makes about them are not false or misleading. At the same time, we ought not to relieve the consumer of the ordinary responsibility to exercise due care in choosing which goods or services he will buy. But he can make an intelligent choice only if he is told the truth.
Other countries have laws which seem to go further in protecting the consumer than ours do. But the degree of honesty in a country does not depend on what

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the law says so much as on the character of the people and on the spirit in which, and the effectiveness with which, the law is applied. The Molony Committee said categorically, in paragraph 680, that in Britain
"The great bulk of traders conduct their business with probity and do not require the law to tell them what is right."
Their code of conduct already requires that the statements they make about the goods and services they offer should not be false or misleading. It is in their interest, as well as in the interest of consumers that those who do not now behave in this way should be induced to do so.
As I see it, the main reasons for this Bill are twofold. First, it carries further and clarifies the old law. Secondly, the law about trade descriptions as it stands at present relates to their application to goods. It is not clear the extent to which, and the circumstances in which, an advertisement in a national newspaper for, say, a brand of chocolate applies a trade description to a particular quarter-pound bar which I may buy in a particular shop.
At this point, as the Bill deals with advertisements, I should declare an interest. I am Chairman of the Advertising Standards Authority, a company limited by guarantee, set up in 1962 and financed by the Advertising Association to supervise the working of the system of self-discipline which exists in the advertising industry. The Authority consists of an independent Chairman, myself, and an equal number of independent members appointed by the Chairman and of people with experience in advertising, whether in industry, in advertising agencies, or in the Press, television and other advertising media. I need hardly say that I am not speaking to-day for the Council of the Authority, still less for the advertising industry for which I have no right or claim to speak. But what I can claim is that my appointment has given me useful experience in trying, at any rate, to consider impartially some of the more difficult issues raised in this Bill.
We on this side welcome the Bill wholeheartedly. We thoroughly approve of its aims, although we reserve the right to criticise and to seek to improve the methods proposed to achieve those aims. The Bill is, of course, based on the Report of the Molony Committee on Consumer Protection. In the main, the
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Government have followed the Committee's recommendations. Where the Government have departed from the recommendations we shall naturally want to know their reasons for doing so, not because there is anything sacrosanct about the recommendations, but because we have before us in the 324 pages of the Report the arguments for the recommendations, and we shall want to be convinced that the arguments for departing from them are sound.
If this Bill is to be regarded as a consumers' charter it should be intelligible to consumers, and I think that the noble Baroness can claim some credit for the Government for trying to make the drafting simpler. But the Bill is, perhaps, not as clear as it appears to be on first sight, and we shall seek to make it clearer. Dropping the phrase "merchandise marks" and using "trade descriptions" certainly helps. The ordinary customer can understand what is meant by a trade description, and I welcome the change. I welcome, also, the proposal that the protection given to customers against misstatements should be extended to cover services as well as goods.
The Bill is not so clear about the extension to oral misrepresentations of the protection at present afforded against false trade descriptions given in writing. The Molony Committee concluded in Recommendation 155, that on balance the
"law should not be extended to oral misdescriptions".
and in paragraph 659 they give three practical reasons. First, there is the encouragement which the extension would give to spiteful or cantankerous consumers (I use my own language); and consumers are not all angels or innocents; secondly, the difficulty of getting evidence of the alleged misrepresentation; and, thirdly, the likelihood that the extension would make traders hesitate to give as much information and advice to consumers as they would otherwise do.
The noble Baroness said in the course of her remarks that if the trader chooses to volunteer information he should get it right. But, of course, he may be pressed for it, and it may not always be easy for him to give exact information. But whatever the law is to be on this matter, I think I ought also to mention

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the possibility that an unscrupulous competitor who might be intending to prosecute, or other intending prosecutors, might seek to trap a supplier into an oral misrepresentation. Whatever the law is to be on this matter, it should be clear and enforceable. I doubt whether the provision in the Bill, that
"An oral statement may amount to the use of a trade description"
has sufficient clarity. Personally, I feel that oral misdescriptions should be covered, if practicable. This is, therefore, one of the points that we shall have to examine in Committee.
Another is Clause 1 itself. The law at present makes it an offence to apply to any goods a trade description which is false in a material respect. The Bill leaves out the qualification, despite the Molony Committee's strong recommendation that it should be retained. As Molony put it:
"to support a charge under the present law… broadly the error must be of such substance that it could fairly be regarded as capable of inducing a purchase. We would not interfere with this limitation."
I would readily agree that false trade descriptions should not be given, even if the falsehood is only a little one. But ought we to encourage a multitude of prosecutions for infringements which could not influence a customer to make a purchase and therefore do no harm to anyone? My own attitude on this will depend a good deal on the enforcement arrangements, to which I shall come later.
Before I turn to Clauses 4 and 5, I should like to welcome the provisions for definition orders and marking orders. I am not so sure about the provision for information or instructions in advertisements, although Parliament can always reject an Order; but we are grateful to the noble Baroness for the light that she has shed upon this particular clause. I am prepared to assume that the power will not be used to interfere unduly with the advertiser's right to present his case in the way he believes will best serve his purpose. After all, an advertisement is not a prospectus. It is part of the process of selling; that is, of persuading people, by every fair and legitimate means, to buy. One does not tell a barrister how to present his client's case. One gives him the brief, and leaves him to get on
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with it. In the same way, one should not tell an advertising agent, for example, how to advocate the merits of particular goods. It is a skilled job of persuasion, like the barrister's. One can warn him of what not to do, but one should be wary, think, of dictating what he shall do and how he shall do it.
I also welcome Clause 11 which seeks to deal with comparative pricing, dual pricing. I am not quite sure that this clause goes far enough. Clause 6, on the other hand, seems to go too far; and Clause 34 seems to invite widespread evasion of civil liability, to the great detriment of the consumer. It seems to allow any seller to protect himself against civil actions for damages for breach of implied warranty. This goes far beyond Molony's recommendation for the protection of auctioneers and those selling second-hand goods.
I have one general comment, and that is on the Title of the Bill. No doubt, numerically, consumers will be the largest beneficiaries from the Bill, but the protection it affords against false trade descriptions extends to any customer—manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer, institution or the like. Some clauses seem to have little, if anything, to do with the consumer. I should prefer the Bill to be called, simply and briefly, the Trade Descriptions Bill. Incidentally, the article on the Bill in last week's Board of Trade Journal starts off:
"The Government's Bill on trade descriptions was published on January 26…"
My Lords, I turn now to perhaps the most important change in the law—namely, Clause 4, which deals with trade descriptions in advertisements. This is greatly to be welcomed. It is curious, however, that "advertisement" is nowhere defined in the Bill. It has been defined among other places; in the Cancer Act 1939, in the Food and Drugs Act 1955, and subsequently in the Advertisements (Hire-Purchase) Act 1957. In each case the definition is different. The Bill does not venture further than to say in Clause 38 that the word includes catalogues, circulars and price lists, which presumably, in turn, include those menus in which the prices of individual dishes are given. Considering that the Bill gives the Board of Trade power to make regulations about what information should be in advertisements, surely it

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would be just as well to make it clear what is meant by the word "advertisements", at least so far as this Bill is concerned.
Trade descriptions are defined in Clause 2. Matters covered by the expression "trade descriptions" are mainly matters of ascertainable fact, but not entirely so. For example, two of the matters are performance and fitness for purpose. The performance of a machine is a matter of fact; but the performance of a patent medicine is a matter on which doctors often differ. It is often a matter of opinion, rather than of fact. I mention this point now because it is of importance when we come to enforcement.
Perhaps the most difficult clause in the Bill is Clause 5, which deals with misleading indications treated as false trade descriptions. Here, again, we are in the realm of opinion, rather than of fact. The composition or strength of a product can be ascertained fairly readily. It is a matter of fact whether it is truly or falsely stated, just as it is a matter of fact whether the net weight stated on the label is the actual weight of the contents. But the question whether a statement, be it a trade description or not, is misleading, in the sense that it is likely to be taken as an indication of any of the matters covered by the definition of "trade description", is generally a matter of opinion. In this case, truth or falsehood is not the test—indeed, truth can itself be so expressed as to be misleading. For example, the watch and clock importers have complained that some merchants advertise the number of jewels—that is to say, industrial jewels, which are of little intrinsic value—to suggest that a watch is of a much better quality than in fact it is.
Such action is clearly calculated (and by "calculated" is meant "deliberately planned") to mislead. But one has to distinguish from the calculated deception, wilful or deliberate, the description which is not intended to mislead but which others may think is capable of misleading some people. Certainly suppliers and advertisers should take care not to mislead; and most do. But even those who do take care may from time to time say or write things which could, and perhaps do, mislead somebody. Indeed, there is almost nothing one can say that is not capable of being misinterpreted or interpreted in a sense
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different from the intention of the person who says it.
Clause 5, as drafted, does not make the offence depend on the intention of the supplier or advertiser, although the ordinary reader would think that it does. The ordinary reader would think that, for an offence to be committed, the deception must be calculated—and in the Concise Oxford Dictionary the definition given for "calculated" is "deliberately planned". But Molony interprets "calculated" as meaning "likely"—an artificial legal meaning common enough in Statutes, but none the less likely to mislead the ordinary person. I hope we shall put that right. A clause dealing with misleading should not itself be capable of misleading. Of course, what matters to the consumer is whether he is misled, not whether the supplier or advertiser intended to mislead him. If the supplier or advertiser did intend to mislead, he should certainly be punished. But what I would ask your Lordships to consider is whether in other cases, where there was no such intention, prosecution is the best method of dealing with the case.
May I recount a recent experience of my own? The Advertising Standards Authority spotted an advertisement which was, in its opinion, misleading in a particular respect. The Authority approached the advertising agent, who said that he saw nothing misleading in it and showed the Authority the results of a consumer survey related to that advertisement and others in the series. The survey did not indicate that there was anything misleading in that or any other respect. The advertising agent, however, agreed to carry out a further survey, and did so. The further survey showed as a fact that the advertisement did mislead in the respect in question—it was no longer a matter of opinion—and the advertising agent, with the consent of the advertiser, promptly amended the advertisement.
I am not suggesting, of course, that all questions as to whether an advertisement is misleading can be resolved in this way. Advertising's self-disciplinary system gives advice on matters of doubt, and obtains expert advice where appropriate—for example, from doctors or specialists. Where it is felt by the Code of Advertising Practice Committee that advertisements are misleading, advertising agents,

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usually readily and always in the end, alter them. If a difference of opinion should arise, it would be for the Authority, which is neutral as between consumers and producers, to resolve it.
The crux of the Bill is the manner of enforcement. In matters of fact, no special difficulty arises. But the question whether an advertisement is misleading is in most cases a matter of opinion—in the first instance, under the Bill, the opinion of the person who brings the prosecution; in the second the opinion of the person or persons who decide the case. It is therefore extremely important that those to whom these responsibilities are entrusted should be well qualified to discharge them, and that there should be available to the prosecutor panels of expert and well-balanced advisers.
The Molony Committee recommended, and the Bill provides, that in England and Wales prosecutions should be brought by local weights and measures authorities, while in Scotland all prosecutions are brought by the Crown. But the Bill seeks to lay upon these authorities the duty of prosecuting not only on matters of fact—a duty which local weights and measures authorities are well qualified to discharge—but on matters of opinion; that is to say, they will have to take a view not just as to whether a false trade description has been given, but as to whether a description, though not false, and whether or not it is a trade description, is likely to mislead people on matters covered by the definition of "trade description" in Clause 2. And they will have to deal with services, with which they are relatively unfamiliar.
As the Bill stands it would be possible for one of them to bring a prosecution against a firm of national and international repute in a magistrates' court because he thought that there was something in the firm's national advertising that was misleading, albeit not intended to mislead. The firm, its advertising agency and its legal advisers might all have been quite satisfied that the advertisement was not misleading—and, indeed, they would be foolish in their own interests to embark on a costly advertising campaign if they were not so satisfied. Yet, to take an extreme case, a local weights and measures inspector might persuade the local magistrates that the
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advertisement was just capable of misleading some rather benighted person, and the directors and managers responsible—possibly Members of your Lordships' House—would become criminals. And I am far from sure that the defences in Clause 22 would help them, because they are not designed to assist the accused who remains convinced that he is right in a matter of opinion.
It is true that Clause 30 of the Bill requires the local weights and measures authority to give the Board of Trade not less than fourteen days' notice of their intention to prosecute. But can the Board of Trade prevent a local authority from prosecuting even if the Board of Trade disapprove of the prosecution? In Scotland all prosecutions will be brought by the Crown; but in England and Wales the local weights and measures authorities are not the sole prosecuting authorities and no notification to the Board of Trade is required if other persons choose to prosecute. So under the Bill the Board of Trade's control of prosecution would not be complete.
My Lords, I hope very much that we shall in the course of dealing with this Bill be able to improve the machinery at present prescribed in the Bill to deal with matters of opinion. In this respect the experience in America is relevant. Perhaps, at the risk of speaking a little too long, I may give the House some impression of what happens in America. In the U.S.A., wherever inter-State trade is involved, the Federal Trade Commission can issue an alleged complaint and order against an advertiser. The advertiser can then choose, within ten days, whether to dispute the order or to discuss the matter with the Federal Trade Commission with a view to a consent orderbeing made within 30 days, the effect of which is that the advertiser agrees to stop doing what the Commission objects to. If he disputes the matter, formal complaint is made and the case is referred to a hearing examiner of the Commission. An appeal can be made to the Commission against the hearing examiner's finding in the form of a petition for review. If the hearing examiner finds against the advertiser and the Commission confirms his finding, the Commission issues a "cease and desist order" against the advertiser, who has 60 days in which too comply or appeal to the courts. Once the order is made final,

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if he disobeys it and does what he was told to stop doing, he is liable to a fine of 5,000 dollars, or nearly £1,800.
On matters of opinion (I am not talking about deliberate deception) that is a civilised procedure compared with the provisions in the Bill. Under this Bill, a manufacturer, a travel agent or an advertising agent, for example, may be brought to court and punished although he had no intention of deceiving; although there is no evidence that anyone has suffered any harm, although he is firmly of opinion that his advertisement is not misleading. The American procedure implicitly recognises, in a way that the Bill does not, that there may be cases where advertisers are firmly convinced that their statements are not misleading, and yet someone else may think that they are, at least in some circumstances and for some people. Under the Bill, if someone else does think so, that may be enough to brand the advertisers, however reputable and well-intentioned, as criminals. Moreover, much damage to the good will and reputation of firms is done when the prosecution is brought, whatever the outcome may be.
My Lords, I have expressed my misgivings about the enforcement procedure proposed. Now may I indicate what, in my view, is needed if the confidence of producers and suppliers of goods and services is not to be undermined, to the detriment of consumers? In the first place, I suggest that the Board of Trade must exercise a tight control over the whole system. Local weights and measures authorities are well suited to deal with false statements by advertisers about matters of fact. Even in this field, however, the Board of Trade will have to issue guidance to them, particularly on such matters as performance and behaviour of goods, the procedure for testing and the availability of testing establishments and so on. The Board of Trade will also, in my view, have to have panels of expert advisers, and I very much hope that on matters on which opinions are divided no prosecutions will be brought until the appropriate advisers have been consulted.
On the subject of guidance, it is significant that after 25 years' experience of the Wheeler-Lea Act in the U.S.A., which gave the Federal Trade Commission
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power over "unfair or deceptive acts or practices" whether or not they interfered with competition, the Federal Trade Commission are now, to quote the opening words in their 1964 Report:
"placing unprecedented emphasis on the use of industry guidance methods, as alternatives, wherever possible, to formal adversary actions."
That is their language, not mine. Their declared aim is:
"to guide business into legal channels without bringing down upon it the menace of the law."
This is why they now accept "assurances of discontinuance".
We seem to be going in the diametrically opposite direction. The Federal Trade Commission have expressed their aim as
"to prevent violations of law rather than to achieve a statistical record for stopping them."
They often do so by giving warnings rather than by taking formal action. In the field of misleading statements, as opposed to false trade descriptions, at least—that is, where it is a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact whether there is anything deceptive—this seems to me sound common sense. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to assure me that the Board of Trade do intend, wherever appropriate, to issue warnings in lieu of prosecuting. The Federal Trade Commission have also been greatly expanding their efforts to forestall breaches of the law by giving advice to individual businesses on the legality of what they are proposing to do—advice which then becomes binding on the Commission themselves. They are also issuing guidance pamphlets. We have a precedent here in the guidance that was issued in 1949 by the last Labour Government on the food and drugs legislation.
I also hope that the Board of Trade will take over all prosecutions resulting from national advertising, and I should like to be assured that it has the powers to do so. For one thing, such prosecutions might be far too costly for local authorities to envisage undertaking. Where matters of opinion are concerned, I hope very much that prosecutions will not be instituted unless and until advertisers have had an opportunity to amend their advertising. If advertisers are so firmly convinced that they are right that they prefer to be challenged in the courts,

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then if they cannot convince the prosecuting authority, a test case will result, and that will take a long time.
Finally, I hope that voluntary self-discipline will receive still further encouragement. If, as a result of the Bill, the present movement to increase the number of local publicity clubs—not unlike the American "Better Business Bureaux"—each with its own vigilance officers, throughout the country is strengthened and accelerated; and if these clubs work in close co-operation with local weights and measures authorities, I believe that a most valuable partnership for the protection of consumers against false and misleading advertising can be established. As for national advertisers, I suggest that the same kind of partnership can and should be established between the Code of Advertising Practice Committee and the Advertising Standards Authority, on the one hand, and the Board of Trade and other Government Departments concerned, on the other. In passing, I would express my personal appreciation of the help and encouragement that the Advertising Standards Authority has received from the Board of Trade.
This measure can be handled in one of two ways by the Government. It can be improved and operated in such a way as to command the support and co-operation not only of consumer organisations but of the organisations representative of those who sell goods and services, and to encourage them to improve their own self-discipline; or it could divide and produce conflict. I hope very much that it is the intention of the Government to choose the first and not the second course. The Bill has received, as it deserves, a general welcome in principle in the country. Apart from the enforcement provisions, and apart from the one major blemish to which I have referred, it has the makings of a good Bill.

THE HOME CIVIL SERVICE
3.40 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, with your permission, I should like to repeat a Statement about the appointment of a Committee to examine the Home Civil Service which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made in another place.
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These are the words of the Prime Minister:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement.
"In reply to the Estimates Committee, published to-day, the Government accept the recommendation that a Committee should be appointed to examine the structure, recruitment and management, including training, of the Home Civil Service.
"I am glad to say that Lord Fulton has agreed to be Chairman of this Committee. I am circulating the names of the other members in the OFFICIAL REPORT. They include the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Handsworth, the honourable Lady the Member for Hitchin, as well as distinguished representatives of industry, the universities and the public service.
"There have been many changes both in the demands placed on the Civil Service and in the educational organisation of the country, and the Government believe that the time has come to ensure that the Service is properly equipped for its rôle in the modern State. The very broad terms of reference will require a fundamental and wide-ranging inquiry in the tradition of the great inquiries of the past, such as Northcote-Trevelyan in 1853 and the Tomlin Commission in 1931. This is a strong Committee, and I hope that their recommendations will enable the Civil Service to meet the country's needs for many years to come.
"At the outset, however, I should like to make two points about the scope of the Committee's inquiry.
"First, the decision to set up this Commission does not mean that the Civil Service has been found lacking by the Government in its current operations. On the contrary, it is the experience of Ministers—and I think the right honourable Gentleman opposite would wish to join me in this—that the Service meets the demands put on it with flexibility and enterprise.
"Secondly, the Government's willingness to consider changes in the Civil Service does not imply any intention on their part to alter the basic relationship between Ministers and civil servants. Civil servants, however eminent, remain the confidential advisers of

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Ministers, who alone are answerable to Parliament for policy; and we do not envisage any change in this fundamental feature of our Parliamentary system of democracy."
The full membership of the Committee is as follows:
Chairman: Lord Fulton, Vice-Chancellor, University of Sussex.
Members: Sir Philip Allen, K.C.B., Second Secretary, H.M. Treasury;
Mr. W. C. Anderson, General Secretary, National and Local Government Officers' Association;
Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Boyle, M.P., Member of Parliament for Handsworth;
Sir William Cook, C.B., F.R.S., Deputy Chief Scientific Adviser, Ministry of Defence;
Sir James Dunnett, K.C.B., Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Labour;
Mr. Norman Hunt, Fellow of Exeter College, Oxford;
Sir Norman Kipping, K.B.E., formerly Director General of the Federation of British Industry, now Senior Consultant on International Trade, Confederation of British Industries;
Mr. Robert Neild, Economic Adviser to the Treasury;
Professor Lord Simey, Charles Booth Professor of Social Science, University of Liverpool;
Mr. John Wall, O.B.E., Managing Director, Electrical and Musical Industries Ltd.;
Mrs. Shirley Williams, M.P., Member of Parliament for Hitchin.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the noble Earl for repeating to your Lordships the Statement which the Prime Minister has just made in another place. May I say how glad I am that the two points at the conclusion of the Statement were clearly made by the Prime Minister? I am sure that all of us who have had experience of their work can endorse the statement that the Civil Service "meets the demands put upon it with flexibility and enterprise"—and, I would add, with efficiency.
Secondly, I am glad that the Statement has placed on record that it is not the desire or the intention of the Government to consider changes in the Civil Service which would alter the relationship between civil servants and Ministers. I think that it is right, for the reasons given in the Statement, that this inquiry, which was originally recommended by the Estimates
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Committee, should be set on foot. The Committee will have to discharge a function of great importance to the nation as a whole and I wish them well. I hope they will. be able to accomplish their labours fairly speedily, although I should not like to think that they will be subjected to pressure to get on too quickly with their work, because they will have some difficult problems to consider.
May I ask that attention should be given, in particular, to one branch of the Civil Service, of which I and some other noble Lords have a particular knowledge, and which, while it forms part of the whole Civil Service, does, I think, need special consideration, both in regard to its recruitment and its structure, and also in regard to its relation to the rest of the Civil Service. Your Lordships will not be surprised when I say that I am referring to the legal Civil Service. I hope that the noble Earl can give that assurance. I think that it does come within the Committee's terms of reference, though these are not specified in the Statement, which describes them as being very broad.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I was waiting for an intervention by the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party. I must say straight away that I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for all that he has said, which will be highly valued in the Civil Service. I will call special attention to the point he has raised.

EXPENDITURE ON PUBLIC PROJECTS
3.45 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, it may be convenient to your Lordships if I now repeat a Statement which has just been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I use his own words:
"On July 27 last, I announced the deferment of certain programmes affecting public investment and expenditure. These measures have achieved their purpose. In particular, the rate of expenditure on capital projects has been appreciably reduced. I estimate that in the six months since the arrangements were announced about £200 million worth of capital projects have

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been deferred for six months. I am grateful to all those who have made the result possible.
"There can be no doubt that this deferment has reduced the pressure of demand below the excessively high level which it would otherwise have reached, has reduced the load on the building industry, and has contributed to the improvement in our balance of payments. The Government now propose to replace the deferment of individual projects by the more normal system of control by expenditure limits. Under the new arrangements revised annual expenditure limits are being fixed in such a way that they will in general be no greater than they would have been under the deferment arrangements. But Departments will now be free to re-programme their investment.
"The limits within which Government Departments will work will apply both to their own spending and in their control of capital expenditure programmes by local authorities. As before, housing, schools, hospitals and projects in development districts will be unaffected.
"Estimates for 1966–67 are being prepared on this basis. Circulars will be sent to local authorities, as necessary, notifying them of the new arrangements. Loan sanction and grants for miscellaneous local authority projects outside the main programmes will continue to be given only for projects which are urgently required."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. The Statement says that under these arrangements expenditure will be no higher than it has been under the deferment arrangements. That is a little obscure. I take it to mean that expenditure will not be increased over the rate at which it has been proceeding for the last six months since July 27 and that, although some of the £200 million worth of deferred works have a chance of being started again, they will have to take their chance in competition with other measures, provided that all expenditure does not exceed this reduced rate at which expenditure
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has been held since July 27 last. So that, in fact, there is no resumption of the former rate of expenditure on public works. There is only a slight elasticity introduced into the kind of work which will now be undertaken. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could confirm that I am right in this.
Can the noble Lord also tell us, if he knows, what is going to happen about roads? Will any of the deferred road expenditure which was stopped last July, some of it in Scotland and some in England, be resumed? Will there be any encouragement to resume it? The noble Lord mentioned that schools and hospitals were not included in the deferred expenditure. We have all heard of instances of expenditure on hospitals which has in fact been deferred since then. Will any direction be given by the Government to give a prospect of the resumption of these projects? Finally, will any priority be given to the resumption of expenditure on the programme of university buildings under the Robbins Report, the interruption of which was a matter of so much regret, I think, to all of us?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think I should be foolish to say that the noble Earl, in his first supplementary question, was right. He gave a rather involved exposition.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It was an involved Statement.
LORD SHEPHERD: I hope to be able to simplify it, if I may. As the noble Earl will be aware, the Government decided that they would have to limit the expenditure of Departments for the next two or three years. As the noble Earl will remember, the Government set the guiding line of a global figure of 41 per cent. There are elements within Departments involving capital expenditure. The Government in July instructed the Departments to defer capital expenditure for six months. If there were deferment of a project costing, say, £10 million, on which £2 million would have been incurred in the present financial year, £5 million in the next financial year, and £3 million in the next, the effect would be that during the period 1966–67, for which the expenditure was to be £5 million, the amount that would be available from the global expenditure for the

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Department concerned would be reduced by £5 million. The object of this scheme is to enable Departments to plan, within the limits set upon them, the various projects which they have in mind, naturally being able to take into account degrees of priority.
I should not like at this stage to be led into the question of roads in Scotland. As I have explained, in Scotland it will be a matter, I presume, for the Secretary of State, and in England for the Ministry of Transport, to decide how the sums available will be utilised, deciding priorities one against another. With regard to hospitals, I can only repeat—and I have no reason to believe to the contrary—that hospitals have not been affected by the deferment requested by the Government in July. If the noble Earl has in mind a particular hospital which he thinks has been deferred, and will let me know, I will have inquiries made. But, according to my understanding, hospitals, schools and housing were not involved in this deferment.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I was thinking of St. Thomas's Hospital. I do not want to press the noble Lord for any details, but may I ask him this? Would it be not too involved to say that the global expenditure will still be held down to the rate to which it has been held down over the last six months, since July 27?
LORD SHEPHERD: No, my Lords; I would not accept that. I told the noble Earl the manner in which this will be done on the basis of what has been deferred. What would have been capital expenditure for the coming year, the amount that was deferred by the policy decision in July, will be taken from what is the global figure of that Department for the coming year.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Within recent weeks the Minister of Transport has announced an expansion of the road programme up to 1970 of some millions of pounds. Does that remain unaltered by anything the noble Lord has said this afternoon?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will certainly take note of that question with regard to a Ministry for which I do not speak. But the Minister of Transport will be tied, as will every other Minister,
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within the global figure which the Government have set down for capital expenditure in the coming year.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: With all respect to the noble Lord, I may be dim witted, but I do not understand at all what the noble Lord has said. It is only a fortnight or three weeks ago that the right honourable Lady the Minister of Transport, with a great flourish of trumpets, said that millions of pounds were going to be spent. I can only assume that that was within the programme laid down by the Government. Does anything that the noble Lord has said this afternoon alter this?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I would not suggest—and I am sure nobody would join with me if I did—that the noble Lord is dim witted. If the Minister of Transport has announced sums which are going to be spent, one would expect that this was a figure that had been authorised. If that is so, it is not affected by the Statement I have made, except within the context as to the amount that had been deferred on previous projects.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Lord has referred on several occasions to the global amount to be spent next year. What I should like to know is what is the global amount to be spent next year. Is it at the same ratio as the deferred amount that was spent this year?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if the noble Lord reads my remarks (I apologise if I have not made myself clear to him) he will be aware that the Government have said that in the economic situation that confronts the country they took the view—and I thought most noble Lords agreed with this—that we should have to contain public expenditure within an average increase of 41¼ per cent. per annum. That is the global figure to which I was referring.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, I thought I heard the noble Lord say that these restrictions would not apply in development districts. My noble friend Lord Dundee has asked a question in relation to the road programme for Scotland. Practically the whole of Scotland is now a development district. Could the noble Lord say whether or not these restrictions will apply to Scotland?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. I should have appreciated that Scotland is a development district and is, therefore, in a more privileged position than other parts of the country.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it is a development district now, but it was not on July 27 last year. What I wanted to know was whether roads in the districts that were not development districts on July 27 last will now get the privilege.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lord, Scotland is a designated development district. It will become a development district when the piece of legislation is presented to Parliament at an early date.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: When will that be?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will not be led there.

PROTECTION OF CONSUMERS (TRADE DESCRIPTIONS) BILL [H.L.]
3.58 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, continuing the debate on this Bill, I join with the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, on her lucid explanation of the Bill. It is not rare for the Explanatory Memorandum to a Bill to shed more light than the Bill itself does, but it is not always the case that the Minister succeeds in shedding more light on the Bill than the Explanatory Memorandum does. I think the noble Baroness this afternoon surmounted that hurdle very comfortably indeed. Having said that, I should like to say further that in my copy of to-morrow's Hansard I shall certainly underline that part of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, in which he said that this Bill is not as clear as at first sight appears.
I should like to preface the few remarks I have to make upon this part of the Bill by referring to one sentence—an admirable sentence, I think—in. paragraph 610 of the Report of the Molony Committee, where they say:
"We think, however, that legislation affecting transactions of everyday occurrence and touching the interests of everybody, as shoppers
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or traders, should be contained in a single enactment and stated in language as plain and simple as modern draftsmanship can provide."
I would venture to go further, and say that particularly is this important in cases where a Statute is creating an offence which does not depend upon guilty intent in the mind of the person committing it. Where guilty intent is involved in an offence, one has the valuable guide that one's mind directs one to the problem; you may, of course, have a situation in which you know that you are doing something which is not morally right but you think that the law, which is in rather a state of confusion, is on your side, and you may find when you are prosecuted that you were wrong. Well, you have not a great deal to complain about in that case. But where the Statute is creating an offence which depends not at all upon criminal intent, it is, in my submission, fundamentally necessary that the Statute should be as clear and precise as modern draftsmanship can make it. I do not believe—I am not convinced so far, at any rate—that the early clauses of this Bill pass that test.
The clauses with which I have a quarrel are Clauses 5 and 6. If your Lordships look at them, you will find that they do absolutely nothing except employ the device of saying that something shall be deemed to be something else. The way in which it operates is this. If you are wondering whether you will come within the mischief of this Bill, you naturally start by looking at Clause 1. That clause seems to say quite clearly, "If you do this you commit an offence." When you get to Clause 5, that does not say, "If you do that you commit an offence"; it says, "If you do that you will be deemed to have done this, and this is an offence under Clause 1 and, therefore, you have committed an offence." In my submission, that is not the way to make for absolute clarity so far as modern draftsmanship can devise. Subsection (1) of Clause 5 says:
"A trade description which, though not false, is misleading…shall be deemed to be a false trade description."
Why not put that in Clause 1 where it refers to "a false trade description"? Why not refer to "a false or misleading trade description", and then people will know where they are before they get to to the end of Clause 1: they do not have to search for hidden snags in Clause 5?

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The same sort of thing applies to subsection (2) of Clause 5, but it is a little technical and complicated, and I do not think it is suitable for discussion on Second Reading. If your Lordships study it, I think you will agree that the "meat" out of Clause 5(2) could well be put into Clause 2, and then there would be no need for this "deeming" in subsection (2) of Clause 5. Subsection (3) of Clause 5 says:
"A false indication…that any goods comply with a standard specified…shall be deemed to be a false trade description…"
There would not have been any need for that if the Molony Committee's recommendation upon this point had been followed, because in paragraph 638 they took the trouble to draft some wording to be inserted in Clause 2 which would have made this "deeming" in Clause 5 quite unnecessary. The words that the Molony Committee drafted—and they are in italics in paragraph 638—are:
"as to any goods conforming to a standard specified by any person or authority."
Why not include those words in the definitions of Clause 2, for that would do away with the need for Clause 5(3)?
I am not going at this pace through the whole Bill, but I think these matters are fundamental and important. Clause 6 says:
"A person exposing goods for sale or having goods in his possession for sale shall be deemed to offer them for sale…"
Instead of that, where Clause 1 says "offers to supply any goods", why not add the words, "or exposes goods for supply or has goods for supply in his possession"? If that were done, people would know where they were by looking at Clause 1, without having to look at Clause 6. We have heard about there being a great deal of "meat" in this Bill, and about its being an appetising dish. My complaint is that all the "meat" in Clauses 5 and 6 ought to be taken out of those clauses and put in Clauses 1 and 2; and Clauses 5 and 6 should be thrown into the dustbin.
I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and the Molony Committee about this word "calculated", which in almost every case in which it appears in this Bill means "likely". This Bill is absolutely peppered with the word "calculated", and in practically every case it means "likely". "Calculated"
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and "likely" are not the same word, and they do not have the same meaning. If you watch people playing roulette, you see a great number of them with pencils and paper busily calculating what number will come up next. Quite apart from the fact that they do not all arrive at the same answer, if their efforts made it any more likely that the number selected would come up next, I imagine that others besides Mr. Charles Coborn would have broken the bank at Monte Carlo. So if the Minister at the Board of Trade, when he comes to reply to this debate, refers to nothing else that I have said except this, will he please answer me this question: Will it be all right if, at the Committee stage, I put down about 50 Amendments, all of which say "Leave out 'calculated' and insert 'likely'"? Because if there is a convincing argument why I should not do so, I will reconsider it, and it may save those who prepare Marshalled Lists of Amendments a great deal of unnecessary labour.
I listened very carefully to the noble Baroness when she was explaining the difference between Clause 1 and Clause 13, which deals with services, and why it was that, when it conies to services, the offence has to be committed either "knowingly" or "recklessly", whereas those words do not appear in Clause 1, which deals with the supply of goods. I listened carefully, but I am afraid I was not convinced, and I am sure that this distinction will lead to considerable anomalies.
Take the case of somebody in the furniture trade who both sells goods and has an upholstery department. Suppose he has received in good faith from a manufacturer some upholstering material which is described to him as being, shall we say, 70 per cent. Terylene, and he labels it in good faith "70 per cent. Terylene". If I buy some and take it home and make up my own loose covers, that is a sale of goods. Presumably, although he is quite innocent, he is guilty of an offence under Clause 1, because that clause says nothing about knowingly or recklessly. But if I take my old chair to his upholstery department and say, "I will have it done in that material", and he says, "That is 70 per cent. Terylene", and in good faith upholsters the chair in that material, he will not be guilty of an offence; because although the material

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is not as described, he has not done anything dishonest either knowingly or recklessly, and no offence is committed. I should have thought that anomalies like that would arise, and that it was better that Clauses 1 and 13, in relation to both the supply of goods and services, should sing the same tune, so far as criminal intent is concerned.
When we come to's the matter of defences, there is something in Clause 23 to which I should like briefly to draw your Lordships' attention. This clause allows a person prosecuted who is an innocent agent, but who can supply the name and address of the person who is in default, to escape liability. But the trouble is that, under the terms of subsection (2) of Clause 23, he has only seven days in which to furnish the name and address of the person in default, if he is himself to escape prosecution under this Bill. The Molony Committee pointed out that there are numerous instances of goods passing from hand to hand in the trade a great many times before they reach the ultimate consumer. It is inconceivable that the shop which sold the goods to the person complaining could in every case discover the name and address of the manufacturer within seven days. Therefore, I hope that fourteen days or more will be substituted there. I will not say any more about that, because it is perhaps rather a Committee point.
Coming to Clause 25, I think this is a curiosity, in that there seems to be no correlation between the clause itself and the marginal note. The marginal note refers to the "Innocent publication of advertisements" by advertising agencies, but on reading the clause I, at least, can find nothing that conveys the impression of innocence. It would seem that Clause 25, as drafted, is a charter for advertising agents to be as callous and reckless as they choose in the submission of advertisements for publication, and enables them to snap their fingers in the face of this Bill. I think something will have to be done about Clause 25.
On the subject of advertisements—and this is the last matter with which I need detain your Lordships—there is one curious advertising practice which I hope will be caught by the Bill. I hope the Board of Trade will watch it and will see that, if necessary, it is caught by an
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Amendment to this Bill. It is something which I can best explain by reference to a back number of the magazine Which?, which is published by the Consumers Association. In passing, may I say that if this Bill does half as much as the Consumers Association and its magazine Which? have done to make this a better world for people who go shopping, then the Bill will not be doing at all badly.
In the issue of June, 1964, this magazine referred to a certain detergent. This is not the particular detergent about which the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, and I had an interchange some little time ago; it is another one. I will not advertise it this afternoon, but we will say it is called "Super White". The situation in June, 1964, was that if one went into a shop and asked for "Super White", in most cases one got a soap powder, but if one lived in Colchester or in Barrow-in-Furness one was a guinea-pig without knowing it and was liable to be given, not a soap powder but a non-soap synthetic detergent product which had exactly the same name on the packet. That was not all, because if one lived in the Isle of Wight one was a third sort of guinea-pig and received neither soap nor non-soap but a mixture of soap and non-soap, although from the appearance of the packet one was getting the good old "Super White" which had been advertised in the national Press for years. The Consumers Association thought it was a perfectly sensible plan for manufacturers to have trial runs of new products in small localities, but they considered that there was something fundamentally wrong in selling three different products under one name and using people as guinea-pigs without their knowing it, in places that were arbitrarily selected by the manufacturer concerned.
I had intended to say something on the subject of enforcement, but I think what I had to say was covered fairly well by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and I have spoken for long enough. So with those few rather discursive observations I, on the whole, welcome this Bill. I dare say it will be called by some people unnecessarily grandmotherly, but I think in these days, when scientific terms are being bandied about on the outsides of packets of products and housewives do not really know what those terms mean,

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a bit of grandmotherly legislation is probably, on the whole, a good thing. So I welcome the Bill—but I hope we can get rid of Clause 5.
4.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF WOOLTON: My Lords, as this is the first occasion upon which I have had the honour to address your Lordships' House I hope that I may be granted the usual indulgence which is so generously given by your Lordships to those in my somewhat unfortunate position. I feel I should declare a non-interest, if I may use that phrase, in this debate. For the last twenty years—until, let us say, about two months ago—I have been actively engaged in retail trading. In that time I did most jobs that can be done in that trade, and I worked in most of the principal cities in this country. Therefore I think I can say that I have some experience in this field. Last November I severed all connection, both financially and managerially, with the trade, and I can now say that if I have any bias at all it does not come from either of those two factors. Therefore, my Lords, though I cannot claim to speak for the trade, perhaps I may be allowed for a moment to speak about it, and this Bill.
Any Bill which helps to bring about more trust between the shopper and the shopkeeper should be welcomed. Most of the shopping done in this country is inevitably done by women, and in most cases by women who are working to a very tight budget, which is a worrying thing for them. However many prices may be shown to have come down during any given period, it is the ones that go up that stick in the mind; and regardless of what may be the real reasons for the increase in these prices, it is the shop which gets the instinctive blame. If, in addition to this, the shopper becomes aware of any slight, or major, irregularity in the description of goods, then what may have been a normal love—hate relationship before can become one of bitterness. It is precisely that situation which all shopkeepers want to avoid. They are in business to make a profit, and 90 per cent. of them know that their goodwill is everything. If once they lose the confidence of the public, they are as good as bankrupt. Therefore, as I have said, anything which can help in this direction is a good thing; and in general
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terms, and speaking as an ex-shopkeeper, I welcome this Bill wholeheartedly.
There is, however, the other side of the coin. The trend in recent years has been for the public to demand a wider range of goods from which to chose, and, with certain exceptions, the days when people accepted the principle that "You can have any colour you want, so long as it is black" are fast dying. This means, of course, that shops have to stock a far greater range of varieties, with the consequent additional labour involved in the ticketing of prices and descriptions, and in the greater risks of quite natural and unintentional mistakes. This trade has not escaped the general labour shortage, and a relatively unskilled trade is subject to a high labour turnover. All this adds to the problem of seeing that the very proper rules are carried out in the enormous detail which is demanded. I make this point, not out of hostility to Acts or Bills of this kind but in order to point out that there are difficulties involved which the shopkeeper, of all people, wants to overcome.
The final point I should like to make concerns the inspectors of weights and measures, who are the officers involved in the enforcement of this and similar regulations. Theirs is not a particularly easy job, having to act, as they do on many occasions, almost as examining magistrates before deciding whether or not a prosecution should take place. I personally, in my years in the trade, have always found them most helpful and sympathetic people, and I hope that their lives are not going to be made more onerous by too many new regulations. I also hope that the cost of these operations will not leapfrog out of all sensible proportions, because in the end, in one way or another, it is the shopping public who pay for it.
4.21 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, it is the first time that I have ever had the pleasure of congratulating a maiden speaker, and I feel sure that there is nobody in your Lordships' House who does not envy me my task; and perhaps I might say to the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, that I come from Yorkshire, where we do not bandy compliments lightly. First of all, as I am

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sure the noble Earl must know, we welcome him because of his father; and if this sounds rather odd to the Opposition Benches, I might perhaps explain it by remembering that in the mid-1950s, when I was in another place, I always very much hoped that the then Government would not take too much notice of the advice tendered by his father on these matters, because I felt it was first-class advice.
Therefore, having made that clear, I might say to the noble Earl that all of us here, particularly those who have not been here a long time, do know the ordeals of any maiden speech, however competent. We have greatly enjoyed what he had to say. It had the two major virtues of any maiden speech in that it was brief and informed. We always say that we hope we shall have the pleasure of hearing a noble Lord on future occasions, but in this case I personally hope, as one very much interested in this matter, that we shall have the opportunity of hearing the noble Earl during the Committee stage of this Bill, because he so obviously has a great deal to contribute.
Perhaps I might pay tribute to a second maiden speech to-day, but one that came from the Dispatch Box. May I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, how very much all of us who have worked in consumer affairs for many years welcomed her appearance in this House, her appearance on the Front Bench, and her speech to-day? I would enter a caveat, and say that I hope that my words will not be held against me when I venture to differ from something she has had to say. But we certainly greatly enjoyed the speech she made.
I noted in the Economist of January 29 that this particular Bill had been a best-seller; or, if we wish to be more concise, we learn that
"By 11.30 a.m. on Thursday"—
the 27th
"the Stationery Office had sold out of copies of the new Protection of Consumers Bill that had gone on sale that morning; customers were taking away five dozen copies at a time and it is going to be Top Reading among shops for a good many years yet."
I hope, as I know your Lordships will, that it will not be only among shops that this Bill will be "top reading". Perhaps at the beginning of my remarks on the
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Bill it would be fitting that I should declare the general interest that I have in matters of this sort. As I think the House knows, I am a consultant to Courtaulds; I am the director of a firm engaged in the direct selling of domestic appliances, and a member of the Independent Television Authority. I would hope, as the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said when speaking of the Advertising Standards Authority, that these opportunities might help me to make a more informed contribution, as he does; and I am quite sure, in common with him, that neither of us would use this to advance sectional interests.
I welcome this Bill and in common with other Members of your Lordships' House, not least my noble friend on the Front Bench who is to reply, our thoughts go back to 1953 in another place. I thought that the Merchandise Marks Act 1953 was a useful piece of legislation. To my mind, its main weakness was that it was not enforced. For that I blame the Government of the day. This time I think that everyone in this House, from all sides, will agree that we must not have provisions in a Bill that cannot and will not be enforced. I would suggest that responsibility for the "cannot" rests with us in Parliament, while responsibility for the "will not" rests ultimately with the Government of the day. I think that if we allow either of these conditions to come about we shall only bring ourselves and our discussions into contempt.
So we come to the title of the Bill that we are discussing, "Protection of Consumers (Trade Descriptions) Bill". I hope that this will be the last measure that will have to be under the heading of "consumer protection". Reluctantly I would agree that this must be the title, in view of the type of clause included in the Bill. But I believe that everyone here would agree that education of all concerned is the stage on which we should now be operating. I want to see, as I said in the House a year ago, industry in its widest sense, trade and consumer organisations, retailers, consumers, working together on consumer affairs rather than discussing consumer protection, and I am glad that the Bill emphasises this aspect of consultation.

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Therefore, I feel (and I think the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, also made reference to this) that with this reference in the title to consumer protection we must at the same time emphasise consumer responsibility—the responsibility of the shopper. I believe that we should be rendering a disservice to ourselves, and to everyone else, if we conveyed a false sense of security, a feeling that everything will be taken care of even if we shoppers do nothing about it at all. In these discussions, and in the implementation of what is finally decided, the local authority figures more largely than ever before. I welcome this development, as I think will most Members of your Lordships' House. All I would say, in passing, is that I hope local authorities will use authorised testing houses in their work. The House does not need me to tell them that we have many excellent ones in existence, and it would be a waste to ignore their skill.
Later, I should like to make some general comment on Clause 3 ("Applying a trade description to goods"); Clause 9 ("Information, etc., to be given in advertisements"); Clause 11 ("False or misleading indications as to price of goods"). But before doing so there are four particular points that I wish to raise. Three of them, I hope and believe, are taken care of in this Bill; the fourth I should like to be, but at the moment I am not sure about it. I believe that performance-labelling is essential for shoppers, particularly in carpets. If we had a division into only two grades in this merchandise, the customer would be greatly helped. Labels stating "heavy duty" and "light duty" would speak for themselves: they would give guidance as to which carpets were suitable for where. The price range would be a wide one—and here I would emphasise something which I think is not always understood. That is that in this range we should find that some carpets at the lower end of the top category were cheaper than some of the carpets at the top of the second category. As those of us with experience know, it is proving difficult to devise tests giving an accurate guide to performance. But I am quite convinced that in this respect industry is doing all it can.
My second point is that I think care-labelling should be obligatory; but I
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should like it to be obligatory by customers' demand, rather than by legislation. In both these cases performance-labelling on carpets and care-labelling for garments or textiles, I believe very strongly, and have done for years, that fibre content is only a secondary point.
Thirdly, in common with many shoppers, and possibly with many of your Lordships, if you do this sort of shopping, I have frequently been completely misled by the term "stock pattern" displayed so prominently in the china departments of shops and stores. I have been misled, because I assumed that this meant that if I bought china under such a heading and subsequently broke some of the pieces, if I went back to the shop I should be able to replace it. It appears obvious that some noble Lords have found out what I did—that it did not mean what I thought. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that when we are considering statutory definition of trade terms, perhaps we can discover exactly what this term "stock pattern" really stands for.
The fourth point I should like to raise is that of guarantees. The Molony Committee were most disappointing in their conclusions on this matter. In the section dealing with guarantees which is contained from page 131 onwards in their Report, no inquiry could have spoken in stronger terms of the ills of the present system; but their conclusion was a defeatist one. I said that in this House in November, 1962, and I still believe it to be the case. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor gave us his opinion on one aspect of this matter at columns 3 and 4 in Hansard of January 25 last, and I appreciate what he said, but I am wondering whether my noble friend could give us some information on this point when he comes to wind up. Are we to take it in the context of those remarks by the Lord Chancellor that what I will call the ordinary type of guarantee can have nothing done for it by this Government until Parliament comes to deal with the Sale of Goods Act? Does the Minister feel that the Bill we are discussing to-day will get us any further on this particular problem?
Now I come to advertising or, as Clause 9 states specifically,
"Information etc., to be given in advertisements."

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Several times in your Lordships' House I have quoted the ruling given by the United States Supreme Court, and I have still to find a better one—namely:
"Advertising as a whole must not create a misleading impression, even though every statement separately considered is literally truthful."
Obviously, this is what we should all wish to bring about, not least the reputable and vast majority of the advertising profession. But when disputes arise, it seems to me that frequently the argument is conducted on matters of opinion and not of fact. This has already been referred to. Obviously, it is difficult to decide what is a correct impression and what is not. Is it ours or that of the other person? Are we biased or are they? Are we stupid or are they? And for whom are the courts to legislate?
I wonder, when my noble friend comes to reply, whether we can have some elucidation of Clause 9(3), which reads:
"Where an advertisement fails to comply with any requirement imposed under this section, any person who publishes the advertisement shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence."
I should like to know, who is "any person"? Is it, for example, the newspaper, the television company, the advertising agency or the manufacturer? I feel it would be useful to all of us if we could know the thinking of the Government on this general aspect before we reach the Committee stage. I believe that no reputable advertising agency would put out any advertisement that was wrong or misleading. Certainly, some advertising is placed direct and not through agencies.
I should like to come back to the agencies, if I may. During the last two or three years I have given a great deal of thought to this subject, and it seems to me that advertising agencies, through obtaining the whole, rather than a part, of their income from advertising, are in a determining position. As I see it, they are the only body solely concerned with this aspect of commercial life; and I submit to your Lordships that this power must bring its inevitable responsibility. Hence I would suggest that the onus of proof in an advertisement should rest with the advertiser, and not with the consumer; and, furthermore, that the advertising agency is the advertiser in this respect.
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When I put forward this viewpoint in the United States some eighteen months ago, the argument advanced against it by the majority of advertising people who heard me concerned the untenable position in which advertising agencies as well as media might be put if they were to be held accountable for factual misstatements about products which they were in no position to check. But I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench, I believe, quite simply, that agencies must be in a position to check, or accept the responsibility for not checking. Where a firm or a manufacturer places the advertisement direct, then responsibility lies with them, or rather should lie with them. Industry and many other people would be glad to know the thinking of the Government here. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has already spoken, but at some time I should be most interested to know his opinion on this matter. If he would not think I was being fulsome, might I say to him that it seems to many of us in the consumer world that, since he became Chairman of the Advertising Standards Authority, the channels of communication have greatly improved.
I come, finally, to Clauses 3 and 11. It is certainly time, and more than time, that these offences were dealt with. Comment has been made that penalties will be severe. I think they should be. There has been comment also that perhaps publicity about these penalties might have a deterrent effect so that large numbers of prosecutions could be avoided. I am quite convinced that what will be the greatest deterrent of all will be the realisation that we now have a Government determined to take action on these matters.
Clause 3 refers to applying a false trade description to goods. I am sorry, but I am still not happy about subsection (2)
"an oral statement may amount to the use of a trade description".
Your Lordships know that I have raised this matter several times in this House, and I should like immediately to make clear where I stand. I support completely the wish behind this subsection and I should like to see it effective, but I want nothing in this Bill that cannot be enforced. The Lord Chancellor told me on November 17 last, at Columns 676 and 677 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, that he

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did not share my doubts. If I may paraphrase what he said, it was that this was being dealt with all the time in oral contract cases. I should have thought that in general such cases were limited to fairly expensive goods, perhaps a car, where the assistant concerned is easily identifiable. I just do not see this being satisfactory where a small purchase is being made over a shop counter and where no independent witnesses are available.
At one time I worked for five years in a large retail organisation. One of my jobs there was to set up a Department of Merchandise Information. This obviously was aimed at giving the assistants the best type of information to pass on to customers over the counter. A real difficulty that I see in this particular aspect is that even the best intentioned of employers may well feel wary of assistants giving information to shoppers. I say to my noble friend that we might get less, rather than more, help when we ask questions about merchandise. Certainly there is no need for me to tell the House of the considerable turnover of staff in the retail trade, which obviously adds to the problem of staff training.
The particular aspect of advertisements on television, which the Lord Chancellor also mentioned in column 676 of Hansard of November 17 last, would seem to be in a different category. Here enforcement and proof would be helped by the fact that there would be available not only oral evidence but visual evidence, too. Like everyone in the House, I see the value of the deterrent, but I am not convinced that a deterrent which cannot be enforced is a good one ultimately. As a layman, I ask what may well be a stupid question, but would it be possible to take out of the clause any reference to purchases where the Act would clearly not be enforceable, and leave us with a first-class clause, necessary and enforceable in all its aspects?
With regard to Clause 11 in relation to false or misleading indications as to the price of goods, I think that the words "4d. Off!" have almost passed into the English language. We all know exactly what it means. I should like to give an example of what happened to me some years ago when a type of coffee that I normally bought suddenly shot up 8d. per lb., and within a few weeks that company had the impudence to put up labels "4d. Off".
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We shoppers, of course, were really paying 4d. more than we paid originally and were under the delusion that we were paying 4d. less. Also, as many of us know, cartons for detergents with the words "4d. Off" printed on them are made in factories long before they are used—they are just sitting there. I do not call these selling gimmicks; I think they are dishonest. I would ask my noble friend whether I am correct in assuming that when this Bill becomes an Act a cut-price article will also have to be marked with the true price that has prevailed for the previous six months. In other words, reverting back to my coffee, if it had gone up 8d. and had stayed at 8d. for six months presumably they could have put "4d. Off", but it would prevent the "fly by night" merchants doing this for a week or so and then changing it. And it would, of course, mean that cartons made up for detergents in factories would not now just be able to have so many pence off; they would have to show the previous price as well. At least, that is my reading of it, and perhaps my noble friend would confirm it.
I now wish to deal with the matter of the eyesore presented by many shop windows in many of our main streets; "Closing Down", "Final Reduction", "Everything must be sold", "Sale". This in Oxford Street in London is not something one sees occasionally; one sees it in the same shops every day. I suggest that this is completely misleading the public, because it is quite impossible, I should have thought, to have had "Closing Down", "Final Reductions", and so on, every day of every week. I should like to ask my noble friend whether that will come within the category of misleading advertising.
This sort of thing has brought into great disrepute what I would call sales proper. I think the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, spoke about grandmotherly legislation, not in a derogatory sense, but I know exactly what he means. I should not like it to be thought that I was being grandmotherly, or suggesting that we should protect shoppers all the time. Obviously, we cannot and should not wish to do so. Anybody with any sense knows that goods sold in a sale may not be as good as goods sold out of sale time. They may be soiled, or damaged, or they may have been a bad buy by the shop.

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But what has damaged reputable shops and reputable sales for a long time now has been the buying of job lots, the buying of "seconds", neither of them stated on the sales cards inside the shop, while the supposed marking down of prices has become so flagrant that the reductions merely bring the whole system into contempt. I am glad the Bill proposes to deal with this, and particular tribute should be paid to the Retail Trading Standards Association which has campaigned for so long on this issue.
In the recent January sales I went to look for myself to see how we were getting along. In several shops I saw cards in the windows stating membership of the R.T.S.A. and inside cards also for the R.T.S.A., explaining why the sale was being held. They made the position crystal clear. I would quote just three sentences for the information of customers from that notice:
"Where a previous price is shown, that price is the price at which these goods or genuinely similar goods were offered prior to the sale here or elsewhere. Where goods are seconds or imperfect or sub-standard, the fact is made known on all sale tickets. Where we offer a Special Purchase, this will be a line of goods provided at bargain prices because we buy outstanding offers especially for the sale and pass on the savings to our customers."
As the House knows, many shops which are not members of the R.T.S.A. are taking similar action. But we all realise the trouble into which a trade association may run when it pushes ideas like this before they are popular. That is why I wanted to mention the R.T.S.A.
This Bill is a determined effort by the Government to deal with and stamp out practices that offend us all. Practices engaged in by a small minority bringing into contempt the reputable majority. I believe the Bill will be welcomed by industry, trade and consumer organisations, retailers, consumers and local authorities. It seems to me to be non-Party, and I am particularly glad that the Bill has commenced its journey in your Lordships' House for this reason as much as any other. I wish it well, and I hope that its passage into law will not be delayed.
4.48 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, in taking part in this very
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important debate, I should like first to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, on the charming way she introduced the Bill; it was very skilfully and admirably done, and I enjoyed her speech tremendously. May I also add my congratulations to the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, on his maiden speech. I thought back many years to the time when I had the great honour and pleasure of working with his father—not in the retail trade, but in political organisation. I had the greatest possible admiration for him and for his wonderful knowledge and skill in the undertakings in which he was engaged at that time. I am sure his son will be as knowledgeable and as skilful in his work as a shopkeeper, as he said, as anybody in this House. We will welcome his help on the Committee stage of this Bill.
I take part in this debate to-day as Chairman of the Consumer Council. We welcome this Bill, which is a consumers' Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, likes to talk of shoppers rather than consumers, and I agree with her, for the Bill will help shoppers very much indeed. We know that the Bill has now been in the Board of Trade for a long time. Even before the General Election, in earlier years, when my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn was one of the Ministers there this Bill was under discussion. It has now been carried forward and brought to fruition by the present Government, but the very fact that it has been for so long discussed by both Parties makes it to some extent a non-Party-political Bill. I approach the Bill in that spirit, and I want to make what contribution I can to the clauses which we have been discussing.
I look upon myself as free to say either things in favour of or things against the Bill because I am, I hope, representing the interests of the consumer and of my Council. We were very pleased because the Bill includes major recommendations made by the Consumer Council, although there are some proposals which perhaps we should have liked to see strengthened, and I will refer to them as I go through the Bill. I should like to congratulate the authors of the Bill—the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, also referred to this matter—on the fact that this is now a Bill in which it is mandatory upon local authorities to

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take proceedings and the duty of enforcement is not, as in the Merchandise Marks legislation, only permissive. The result of the old system, as we all know, was that for many reasons few prosecutions were taken under the Merchandise Marks legislation, so that, in effect, offences went by default. But I agree with the noble Baroness that it is very important that on this occasion we should have a different approach to these problems.
In this Bill the enforcement will be undertaken by the local authorities, who must notify the Board of Trade fourteen days before instituting prosecutions: this is mentioned in Clause 30(2) of the Bill. It is important that the Board of Trade will take prosecutions themselves, and this should be expressly provided for, for the following reasons. If a magistrates' court decided that there was a charge which referred to an advertisement or a trade description used throughout the country which constituted an offence, there is a possibility that in another court, in another part of the country, there might be a conflicting decision. Although local authorities are given power to combine for the purposes of prosecution, this does not rule out the possibility of conflicting decisions. We believe, therefore, that offences committed on a national scale should be prosecuted by a central authority. To do otherwise would leave a considerable area of doubt, which might well become a hazard to national advertising and trade, without necessarily being in the interests of the consumer. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, made this point in his speech, and I hope that the Government will look at it.
One provision which my Council regards as particularly important is to be found in Clause 3(2), which states:
"An oral statement may amount to the use of a trade description."
This question has been discussed in this debate, and obviously it is a matter which will receive a great deal more discussion. But it follows for us that, if the oral description is incorrect, then the salesman is breaking the law. This means that a lie is a lie if it is spoken, just as much as if it is written. Why should we have to endure the false statements of assistants who assure us that they are selling us a shrink-resistant, all-cotton, colour-
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fast blouse, which, when we get it home, shrinks, pours out colour, and turns out to be a mixture of fibres?
The provision about oral statements has been represented as an innovation, but in fact it is nothing of the sort. There are other examples in the consumer protection field where oral misdescription is an offence. For instance, Section 3 of the Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act 1926 makes it an offence for a person to make any misrepresentation as to the weight or measure, either by word of mouth or otherwise, in connection with the sale of any article of food. Under Section 24 of the Weights and Measures Act 1963, the seller commits an offence if he makes a misrepresentation, by word of mouth or otherwise, as to the weight, measure or number of the articles exposed or offered for sale. Again, Section 2(1) of the Food and Drugs Act 1955 has also been successfully used in prosecutions for oral misrepresentations in the sale of foods. I therefore cannot agree with the argument, produced by certain sections of the retail trade, that this principle is an innovation.
I know it has been said, and it has been said here to-day, that oral misdescription is difficult to prove, and that the retailer may be at the mercy of spiteful or mendacious customers. If it is to the advantage of anybody to be deceitful, in the first instance at any rate, it is the person trying to make a sale who is most likely to be tempted to make a false statement. As a matter of proof, the need for corroboration is shared equally by the customer and the seller. Customers do not have built-in lie detectors, and the inclusion of this provision would ensure that consumers who could prove that they had been induced to buy goods on the strength of false statements would have a remedy. I should like to stress the words, "customers who could prove". My Council hopes that all reputable traders will welcome this measure as a check on the abuse of an admitted minority—but nevertheless a minority which diminishes customers' trust in suppliers. We have heard it suggested that to make telling a tale an offence will mean that shop assistants will be afraid to open their mouths and say anything. My answer is that it would be no worse for the customer if the shop assistants kept silent, than if they made

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false statements about the goods which they were trying to sell the customer.
The great majority of trading in this country is carried out in all honesty, and in recommending the inclusion of an oral misdescription clause the Council does not consider that it goes further than expecting that in everyday buying and selling one's fellow men and women are telling the truth. It will be very chastening to find that this assumption is so false that attempts to bring into line the unscrupulous minority are regarded with fear by the majority engaged in daily commerce.
We should also pay regard to the people most familiar with abuses stemming from misdescription. I refer to the local authority weights and measures inspectors. I understand that they are strongly in favour of oral misdescriptions being made a general offence, rather than provisions being scattered piecemeal through the legislation they are asked to enforce. I shall say a word later about the part of the weights and measures inspectors in the Bill.
In Clause 8 there are reserve powers for the compulsory labelling of certain goods, and I welcome this particularly where matters of safety are concerned. We should, for instance, like to see compulsory warning labels on flammable nightwear for adults. Your Lordships will remember that we were successful in getting legislation on flammable nightwear for children. We have always hoped that manufacturers would also agree to take part voluntarily in labelling schemes. We are ourselves launching our Teltag scheme, to which the noble Baroness referred, which is an informative labelling scheme, on a voluntary basis, sponsored by the Consumer Council in cooperation with the British Standards Institution. This labelling scheme gives information at the point of sale about the goods that we, the shoppers, are buying.
I can give your Lordships one or two examples. If textiles, for instance, were included, the label would show whether they were colour-fast and whether they were shrink-resistant. If carpets were included—and the noble Baroness has referred to carpets and knows a great deal about them—the label would show whether they were suitable for stairs or
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for a living room, rather than for a bedroom which requires a less hard-wearing carpet. If we were dealing with floor coverings, such as linoleum or other material, the label would show whether they would stand up to stiletto heels or heavy boots. If the goods were electrical equipment, the label would show the time a kettle would take to boil or how much water it held. In the case of food mixers, the label would show whether they would mix large quantities or small, or what other things they would do. We feel that this will be helpful to people in choosing the product most suited to their pockets and to their needs.
In addition to sale-labelling, giving information that can be verified by measurement, demonstrated by proof and certified nationally, we should like to see manufacturers take on more responsibility for labelling their products with information about care and use. The more care-labelling there is, the better. This would also help the shop assistants, who would not need to invent things in an effort to sell us their goods, thus invoking the oral misdescription clause which I mentioned earlier. The noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, has stressed care-labelling, and I agree with her wholeheartedly.
Prices have been mentioned in the debate, and Clause 11, which refers to misstatements other than false trade descriptions, is of very great importance to shoppers. It means that at last cut-price notices will be checked, unless there has been a genuine reduction. We know that this recommendation is opposed in some quarters, because with the abolition of resale price maintenance it is difficult to establish a single selling price. However, statements about previous prices can be fixed to a period during the preceding months, and to the prices on offer in similar shops. The Retail Trading Standards Association and the Retail Distributors' Association, which have been referred to by the noble Baroness, have willingly produced voluntary codes of conduct on this basis for their members to observe, and many traders have found it possible to use this code when they have sales, and to explain the methods that have led them to justify price reductions—for example, to say that goods offered in sales for 7s. 6d., reduced from 10s. 6d., are identical to articles that the shop itself

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has stocked and sold at the higher price. It is important that checks on dual pricing should see that the article that is reduced in price is the same in size and quality. We have all been "had" by offers which say, "3d. off—special bargain", only to discover that what is meant is, "3d. off and, although the package looks the same, it weighs three ounces less."
We are also glad that Clause 11 appears to stop the practice of using the size of print for lettering in a way to suggest that a larger quantity is being offered for the price shown than is in fact the case. There must be quite an industry in producing price tickets with the price of, for example, 2s. 6d. written in letters as big as a banner headline in a newspaper, while side by side a special type, legible only to those with exceptional eyesight, states that this relates to half a pound and not, as might be supposed, to a larger quantity.
Coming to Clause 13, dealing with false or misleading statements as to services, one of my Council's particular recommendations was that misleading statements about services are as important as those relating to goods, and we are therefore delighted to see that services, which are the cause of many consumer complaints, are included by new provisions relating to services, accommodation or facilities. These would cover, for example, some of the misleading descriptions used in travel brochures. I referred to this problem when we were discussing travel in your Lordships' House last week. I hope that the inclusion of Clause 13 will make people who supply services (whether accommodation, travel or whatever it may be) particularly accurate in their descriptions.
In connection with Clause 13 of the Bill, I understand that the word "statement" includes statements relating to services in advertisements appearing in the Press or on television. We are very anxious that there should be some check on advertisements (although again I would say that I am referring only to a minority of advertisements), and I should be grateful for the Minister's assurance that Clause 13 will, in fact, cover advertisements in the Press or on television.
Clause 26 refers to the weights and measures authorities, who are the
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enforcing authorities under the Bill. I should like to say a word about the work of the weights and measures authorities throughout the country. Few people among the general public, I think, appreciate the devoted service and the meticulous care which the weights and measures officers take in administering Acts of Parliament. The responsibilities placed upon them are very great. Their offices are often understaffed, and their officers sometimes underpaid, and we are very glad that, under this Bill, the Government are to afford further funds to increase the numbers of men and women who are engaged in this important service. I should like to stress women here, as on one occasion I was invited to address the annual meeting of a weights and measures authority—and a very delightful meeting it was! At that meeting I urged them to train and employ women, as well as men, for I discovered that the number of women in responsible posts in weights and measures administration was almost negligible. I am sure that women would be just as careful and conscientious as men in their duties.
My Lords, this Bill has many authors, not least those who, in the 1950s, fought for the interests of consumers in another place; many M.P.s, some of whom are in your Lordships' House to-day; quite a number of former Presidents of the Board of Trade, including the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, who set up the Molony Committee when he was at the Board, and Mr. Molony himself and his Committee, from whose Report came the Consumer Council and this Bill. If it were a racehorse, it would have a distinguished and varied parentage difficult to describe in a single name. We are grateful to all those people who struggled to bring the Bill to reality. We acknowledge their enterprise and tenacity of purpose. The Bill will provide real safeguards for the shopper; it will alert people to possible dishonest behaviour; and it will assist those who are trying by every means to raise the standards of manufacture and distribution and the services upon which we all depend.
My noble friend Lord Peddie, who is also a member of my Council, will deal, after me, with clauses of this Bill which I have not mentioned. Together we shall help the passage of this Bill through the House, reserving the right to propose

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Amendments in Committee. My Council, my Lords, welcomes this Bill, and I beg to support its Second Reading.
5.5 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, may I also take the opportunity of congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, on his maiden speech—and, by repetition, my congratulations lose nothing in their sincerity. I thought that his contribution had the twin attributes that make for a good speech in this House—at least in my opinion. The first is that of brevity, and the second is that of talking on a subject about which one knows something—and the noble Earl certainly did that. I also congratulate my noble friend Lady Phillips for the really remarkable way in which she handled, in a maiden speech from the Front Bench, all the complexities of this Bill.
Having said that, I turn to a consideration of the Bill itself. On the whole, I would think that all the speeches that have been made so far have been in congratulatory terms. All have indicated the belief that this is a good Bill. I share that view, and I think that all responsible, the Minister in particular, deserve congratulations for producing this Bill. I think we have moved well away from the time when the dominating principle that determined all retail sanctions was that of, "Let the buyer beware"; and it is true that to-day there are many organisations, many people of good will, who make it their business to see that there is some protection for the consumer.
However, protection cannot be limited exclusively to the activities of consumer associations: the Consumer Council, the Co-operative Movement and bodies of that kind which seek to achieve a measure of protection. Legislation is needed; and here, I think, we have a Bill which marks a further milestone along the road of what one might almost describe as the emancipation of the consumer, although I accept the point of view that was so well expressed by my noble friend, that something must be left to the intelligence of the consumer. One cannot erect a barrier so that it is impossible for an individual consumer to exercise some measure of independence and self-determination.
As to my comments on this Bill, after expressing this congratulation there is
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very little comment of a critical kind that I can make. Therefore, any comments that appear to be critical are expressed in a mood of inquiry rather than of criticism. I am glad that the definition of "trade descriptions" has been greatly extended. Any statements that relate to one or more of a number of characteristics of goods are trade descriptions for the purposes of this Bill, and the listing of such characteristics has now been greatly extended in the present Bill beyond the limits set by the Merchandise Marks Acts.
As I think has already been stated by my noble friend on the Front Bench, the new elements include naming of the place, date and manner of manufacture and the person by whom the goods are manufactured; claims about testing by any person; history of previous ownership; quantitative properties of goods and so on—apparently covering the whole range of elements bearing upon this particular matter. Indeed, the provision goes a little further and includes a useful general phrase covering any physical characteristics not otherwise included.
The Consumer Council, of which I am a member and of which the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, is so distinguished and capable a chairman, has the satisfaction of being able to recognise that most, if not all, of the recommendations which the Council has made have been incorporated in this Bill. But there is one small exception on which I wish to comment, not in a critical sense, but in order that my noble friend who is to reply can indicate why the point of view advanced by the Consumer Council has not been accepted. It is this. Here we have in this Bill the tying down of the definition of "trade description" to a specific number of characteristics. They are clearly indicated. Therefore any misrepresentations, even by inference, which fall outside the list of characteristics mentioned in the Bill are not covered by the Bill. The Consumer Council, rightly, I believe, has advocated a different approach for which there is a precedent in the legislation of other countries. Even in a country like Spain, which one does not usually consider as having a great reputation for consumer protection, one finds that there has been the possibility of legislation dealing with this matter.
We, the Consumer Council, believe that the real test of a false statement must be

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its effect on the buyer. That is the real test. It is not merely a matter of a list of characteristics but more a matter of where it can be proved that the buyer himself has been misled. We believe there is no difficulty in applying the test of the "reasonable man", who is a familiar figure in legislation. Therefore we envisage a clause which would allow the courts to determine, in the usual way, whether a false statement has led a buyer to make a purchase which he would not have made but for this falsity. This would deal with the types of false description in advertisements which have become rife to-day and which are particularly popular in television advertising. I want to make it clear, as other noble Lords have done, that the overwhelming majority of advertising put out to-day by reputable agencies is sound and honest. But there are other types of advertisement which, even by inference or omission, tend to mislead. Sometimes we find that a man buys an article, in good faith, on the strength of a description in advertisement which achieves its effect by an element of suppression, omission, implication or half-truth.
While it is true that Clause 5(2) allows a statement which is calculated to be an indication of any of the listed characteristics to be tantamount to a trade description—and this admittedly goes some way beyond previous legislation—any such indication is still limited to the specific characteristics listed in Clause 2. It could be argued that the words "any physical characteristics" give a pretty wide ambit; but there are subtle inferences, and particularly omissions, which ought to be caught but where we have nothing to hang on to, so far as the list of characteristics is concerned.
For instance, one might see in television advertising a white-coated gentleman making reference to a certain product, and there may be a fleeting caption referring to a substance as being "used by most doctors" or "used by most hospitals", and so on. As a result, the viewer may form the impression that some kind of professional blessing has been given to that commodity—indeed, perhaps that is intended by the advertising. Is that misleading? Is it deliberately misleading? If it is, it is of such a character that it would not come within the ambit of this Bill.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Would the noble Lord allow me to intervene at this point? I think the particular practice of which he speaks has been discontinued.
LORD PEDDIE: I am very pleased to hear that. But even if that is the case, there are many indications whereby it is implied that a particular product has been given the blessing of, say, a doctor when, in fact, it has not. I quote that merely as an example of the kind of wrong emphasis which may be given in advertising and which is not dealt with in this Bill. These examples would not be caught by Clauses 4 or 2, for I doubt whether it can be said positively that they relate to "performance" or to "any physical characteristics" (these seem to be the phrases coming nearest to the circumstances) as set out in Clause 2.
I am sure there are many other examples of persuasion by means of omission or half-truth which cannot be clearly related to the characterstics listed in Clause 2. I would ask whether Clause 2, in so far as those statements of particular characteristics are concerned, is, in the opinion of the Minister, adequate. It has been said that if a general misdescription clause, on the lines proposed by the Consumer Council, were to be included it would be too much to expect that the courts would give consistent decisions on such a subjective matter. Yet we have already accepted this process of subjective judgment in many fields of law. Magistrates are required, for instance, to decide what constitutes dangerous driving. That cannot precisely be defined. Even in the present Bill (in Clause 4, I think) the courts must decide whether a person to whom goods are supplied is likely or unlikely to associate an advertisement with those goods. Admittedly, this is a confined use of the principle, because it is linked with the definition of a trade description; nevertheless, it is there.
I have already indicated that foreign Legislatures have had no difficulty in applying the broad rule. West German law strikes at such incorrect data or other material as might produce that effect. Since 1953, France has prohibited any information which, although essentially correct, results in misleading the buyer. The United States Federal Trade Commission, which has already been referred to in this debate, demands that

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an honest advertisement must be so clear that it cannot mislead the more ignorant or the least suspicious buyer; so that mere omission can in certain cases be considered as deceit: an omission is as much deceit as a statement that is deliberately deceitful.
The type of clause the Consumer Council would like to apply to all false statements occurs in our own food and drugs legislation. It occurs in the Labelling of Food Order 1953, Section 8; and, again, in the Bread and Flour Regulations 1963, Section 23. It is an offence for any person to publish an advertisement which indicates, or is calculated to indicate, by—and I quote:
"words, advice or description …either directly or by ambiguity, omission or inference"
that a food is an aid to slimming. By analogy with foreign legislation, we should like this formula to apply to the likely effect of any statement upon the buyer.
My Lords, I turn now to Clause 34 of the Bill which gives the buyer of goods an implied warranty that trade description is not false, with the proviso that the warranty may be excluded by a statement in writing delivered and accepted by the buyer at the time the contract for the sale of goods is made. This, of course, follows Section 17 of the Merchandise Marks Act 1887. But there is one slight difference in this Bill—and again I should like to know the reason for it. The latter required the seller's written exclusion to be signed by him before the implied warranty could be excluded. As noble Lords are aware, to-day most printed guarantees offered with goods are not signed by the seller. Therefore, the mere handing out of a guarantee may kill the effect of Clause 34, since most of the guarantees take pains to exclude liability for any statutory warranties.
But there is an even more important issue raised by this clause. Both Section 17 of existing legislation and Clause 34, in my opinion, are something of an anomaly in Acts dealing with criminal offences, and belong more properly to Sale of Goods law. However that may be, the clause has been retained in its old form apart from the exception I have mentioned. As many of us know from past experience, whenever the question of
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the reform of the Sale of Goods Act 1893 has been broached, the stock reply of the Government of the day has been, "Let us wait for the new Act before meddling piecemeal with this or that section". We know that since 1938 hire purchase legislation has prohibited owners or sellers from excluding the liability for statutory implied warranties concerning the quality and performance of goods, under certain limited provisos; yet we have waited nearly thirty years for similar legislation in the field of cash sales and credit sales not covered by hire purchase legislation—that is, of goods worth £30 or less.
This argument has been seriously weakened by the Misrepresentation Bill, already introduced in another place. Clause 4 of this Bill has sensibly amended two archaic sections of the Sale of Goods Act relating to the definition of acceptance of goods by the buyer. These subtleties of law do not concern us to-day, but I mention them merely to show that where there is a will there is a way, if there is a desire to make a change. The Sale of Goods Act, as an entity, is not sacrosanct. Why, then, must we perpetuate in Clause 34 this freedom to exclude liability for an implied warranty, when this provision has already been excluded in hire purchase law and when it has already been sentenced to death in the shape of a new Sale of Goods Act?
I suggest that we should take the opportunity to grasp this nettle now. The only sensible course would be to strike out the last part of Clause 34, which reads:
"Unless the warranty is excluded by a statement in writing delivered to and accepted by the buyer at the time the contract was made."
I would ask: How can a trader be free to exclude his civil liability while, at the same time, by the operation of the Bill, he cannot exclude his liability for the criminal offence of applying a false trade description? The only answer apparently for this irrationality is that it already exists in Section 17 of the 1887 Act.
I mention these two points, though it would appear almost churlish for me to do so, in view of the fact that all the recommendations made by the Consumer Council have been accepted. Yet I feel it is necessary to get an answer to these

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particular points. Having said that, I would join with other noble Lords in expressing praise of this Bill. I repeat what I said at the opening of my speech. It is a good Bill and one which will make a considerable contribution to the welfare of the consumer. It is a Bill which, I am confident, will be welcomed equally by the trade and by the consumer.
5.25 p.m.
LORD CAWLEY: My Lords, I must first congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, on the able way in which she moved the Second Reading of this Bill. Then I must declare an interest. For the last twenty years or so, it has been part of my job to explain to people what merchandise marks mean, and, when it becomes law, I shall have to explain to people what this Bill means. Therefore, it is of considerable interest to me that this Bill should be as simple and as clear as possible—and I will say, to start with, that I do not think it is. As I go on, I shall mention the various matters which I do not consider are very clear.
For a great mercantile country not to have clear merchandise mark laws has been a scandal for many years. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, when he was Lord Chief Justice, in the case of Slatcher v.Mence Smith in, June, 1951, said:
"We"—
that is, the Divisional Court—
"have considerable sympathy with the lay justices who have to administer the Merchandise Marks Act 1887. It is a most difficult Act to construe and has given rise to many appeals. Those who are responsible might well consider whether new legislation should not be introduced to set out the law on this matter in clear language which the lay justices and others concerned with its administration could understand".
I think that the noble and learned Lord ought to have added to that "and the general public".
I am glad to see that the Merchandise Marks Acts of 1887, 1891,1894,1911,1926 and 1953 are to be repealed, and I congratulate Her Majesty's Government on having grasped the nettle at last. These Acts were full of nearly unintelligible and, in many cases, ludicrous provisions. I am glad that the offence of forging a trade mark has been abolished. This was defined in a former Act as a "registered trade mark". The question of registered trade marks involves civil
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rights alone, which should give rise to actions in tort and not to prosecutions. I think that the Government very wisely did not accept the recommendation of the Molony Committee on this point, but accepted the advice of the late Mr. Hugh Fletcher Moulton, a great expert in this branch of the law, whose evidence, in my opinion, was brushed aside in a cavalier manner by the Committee.
I welcome the general provisions of the Bill, but like most such Bills, it needs a good deal of attention, which I am sure it will get. I do not dissent from the introduction of oral statements in Clause 3(1). They are difficult to prove, but so is perjury if no shorthand note has been taken in court, and I do not think that that ought to deter the Government from persisting with this form of offence. I think, however, that it ought to be extended to smells and tastes. I am not being facetious, and will give your Lordships an example of what I mean. In a supermarket there is a pile of cakes of soap in plain wrappers with, let me say, the words "Excelsior Soap" written on them. It is perfectly plain soap, not scented at all. The dishonest proprietor of the store might scatter a few drops of rare perfume on this pile, thereby inducing the purchasers to think—and, of course, in these stores there are no assistants about—that they are purchasing a finely scented soap, when they are not. The same condition would apply if a shopkeeper were to scent a pile of bottles of cheap and nasty scent with some drops of rare perfume. This would be deceiving the public and I think that the Bill ought to extend to practices of this kind, which are just as important as oral misdescription.
In my view, Clause 12 as it stands is much too narrow. The rubric says:
"False representations as to royal approval or award, etc."
The clause provides that no person shall falsely represent himself as a supplier of goods to Her Majesty, to members of the Royal Family and, surprisingly, to any Government Department. Under this clause it would be an offence to state falsely that one was a supplier of briar pipes to the Treasury or to the Department of Education and Science, but it would not be an offence to say falsely that one was a supplier of briar

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pipes to the Prime Minister, the Archbishop of Canterbury or the National Coal Board, or any other body. In my submission, this provision ought to be extended to a false statement that you are the supplier of goods to any identifiable person. The advantage of saying one was a supplier of briar pipes to the Prime Minister would be infinitely greater than saying one was a supplier of briar pipes to the Treasury, and I think such false statements ought to be stopped. It would also stop another practice, which it may be that the code of advertising does not allow, which is that you use a picture of Mary X, a television star, who says that she attributes her girlish complexion to using "Snibbo" every day. In fact, she has never touched the beastly stuff; the nearest she has got to dealing with "Snibbo" is that she has handled a fat cheque on "Snibbo's" bankers. I think that this should be stopped, and it could easily be done by extending the scope of this clause.
Then I come to Clause 17. There may be a technical reason for this—and I do not require an answer now—but it appears that, compared with the Merchandise Marks Act 1953, the period of imprisonment for an offence prosecuted summarily has been reduced from four to three months. I appreciate that there may be a good reason for this. Also, there is no provision now for larger penalties for subsequent offences. It is true that in both cases there is a provision which allows for indictment, but presumably that would be involved in only very serious cases.
Clause 20 is, I must say, a very weird clause. This morning I consulted Queen's Counsel who is accustomed to dealing in this branch of the law, and we argued for about a quarter of an hour about what the first part of the clause meant, without coming to any consistent conclusion. It appears, if one reads the clause (I will not read it now), that an offence under Clause 1 of the Bill may depend on the state of mind, the intention, of the offender. That would lead to most extraordinary circumstances. Let us say that a man has a roll of black cloth with the word "Black" written on it. That is a perfectly true description, and is not false. Let us say that in Ruritanian language the word "black" means white. That
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is false. It appears from this clause that if the man intends to export the goods to Ruritania, then he is committing an offence, but if he intends to sell them in this country, he is all right. I can see nothing in Clause 1 which deals with that, but Clause 20 does suggest that that is the law, and I think it should be looked into carefully.
A little later in the clause there is the most astonishing phrase, which does not occur anywhere else in the Bill:
"being an indication which could not on any reasonable view be regarded as true."
I do not know what that means. I should have said that, if that were so, it was a false indication. It could not on any reasonable view be regarded as being true. We seem now to have a gentleman who is a reasonable viewer and who has come in. I really feel that the Government ought to consider taking this phrase out altogether. It adds nothing to the Bill, and to me it only creates confusion.
I am glad that in Clause 23 the provisions of the Food and Drugs Act have been incorporated in order to catch the proper criminals. Up to now, if a wretched little shopkeeper was prosecuted, he could not bring in, under the Merchandise Marks Act, the proper criminals. He can do that under the Food and Drugs Act, and I have been in a case where my client was acquitted on those very grounds: he brought in the proper person and proved that he himself had taken all reasonable steps.
The noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, told us about crimes under Clause 9(3) in which she suggested that advertising agents might be in danger. I think that Clause 25 gives them a defence—and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, referred to this. But it does not give anybody except advertising agents a defence. It might be convenient to include newspaper proprietors, printers and so on.
LORD AIREDALE: It gives advertising agents too much of a defence.
LORD CAWLEY: The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, says that it gives advertising agents too much of a defence. But it does not give printers and newspaper proprietors any defence at all.
The question of enforcement is a very vexed one. I feel that the unfortunate state of affairs in which it is possible to

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go around the country and into various magistrates' courts to try to get decisions which are not binding is a serious defect. I know that it follows the precedent of the Merchandise Marks Act, the famous case of Kat v.Diment, which dealt with a product known as a non-brewed vinegar—which, incidentally, the Board of Trade had recognised. But still the vinegar producers went round the country trying to get a decision in their favour that it was a false description. They finally reached one court, after three or four efforts, which said that it was a false description. I do not think it should be possible to go around the country in this way in order to get a decision. I think that in matters like this there should be some authoritative decision on these trade descriptions, and not merely a decision of fact in a small magistrates' court. I would support an Amendment that allowed for this.
Are the Government satisfied that the weights and measures authorities have large enough staffs? Are they satisfied that, if they have not large enough staffs, these can be recruited? I was talking to a civil servant the other day who has a small department, and he suddenly received a large increase in the amount of work he had to do. He went to his superiors and said: "I must have some more staff." They said: "It is quite all right, old boy, you have an establishment." His reply was: "Yes, I have an establishment; but I have not got the bodies. Could you get me the bodies?" I am afraid that we shall find that the recruitment of bodies to these local authorities will be difficult. I hope that this will not be so, but I rather think it will, particularly as recently every Act of this Government and the last Government has showered new duties on local authorities.
Then I feel these new forms of trade descriptions could lead to expensive litigation. I was once engaged in a case at Aylesbury under the 1953 Merchandise Marks Act which concerned a medicine for cows—it was a homœopathic medicine. We set out on this case, and it became a slanging match between fully qualified medical practitioners who practised homoœpathy and fully qualified medical practitioners who practised alopathy or orthodox medicine. They all gave evidence, and in the end the Appeals
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Committee said: "We have heard a lot of medical opinion given on both sides quite honestly"—obviously they were honest witnesses—"and as there has been a complete conflict of evidence, and the onus is on the prosecution, the prosecution fails". The defendants were then awarded £500 costs. That may not be a great sum, but obviously their own costs were considerable, and that was a great drain on the funds of the local authority.
I feel that litigation under this Bill might be most expensive. If you say a thing is black when it is white, anybody can prove in ten minutes whether that is or is not true. But if it comes to these complicated matters of opinion, the problem is much more difficult. There is another point. If the local weights and measures authority does not do its duty, the only sanction appears to be that the Board of Trade can hold an inquiry and "give it a rocket". I do not think it can do anything else. It may be that certain of these authorities would rather receive a "rocket" from the Board of Trade than from their ratepayers, who would say that they have been spending too much money.
Now I return to the word "calculated". I have been through the Bill, and I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, that he is wrong; the word "calculated" appears only ten times. But there will be ten Amendments from three of us, unless something is done before the Committee stage.
I think I ought to refer to the Report of the Departmental Committee on Trade Marks, under the chairmanship of the late Lord Goschen, which was placed before Parliament in April, 1934. It contains the following paragraphs, referring to the Trade Marks Act 1905. In paragraph 64 the recommendation on Section 11 is as follows:
"It shall not be lawful to register as a trade mark any matter the use of which would by reason of its being calculated to deceive or otherwise be disentitled to protection in a court of justice or would be contrary to law or morality or any scandalous design."
On Section 55, the recommendation was:
"The word 'calculated' has been held to mean 'likely' and might be replaced by that word."
That was based on the decision of Mr. Justice Sargent, as he then was, in the Egg Products application. Parliament embodied this recommendation in the

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Trade Marks Act 1938, which is still in force—that is to say, it altered the words "calculated to deceive" to "likely to deceive." The words "calculated to deceive" occur in this Bill in Clause 12(2). At any rate, the word "calculated" surely must have the same meaning all the way through the Bill. I wonder whether the draftsman has ever read Sir Ernest Gower's little book,Plain Words? I think this is a clear case where "calculated" does mean "likely". "Likely" is an ordinary simple, English word, and should be substituted for "calculated" in this Bill.
There is one thing that I would ask. In the 1926 Act it was not necessary for goods originating in a Colony to be marked with the actual name of the Colony from which they came; the word "Empire" was sufficient. I do not know whether the noble Lord who is to reply will be able to say whether the word "Empire" will now be a false trade description for goods coming from Hong Kong, now that the Empire has been liquidated. This was a special provision in the 1926 Act which does not appear to have been reproduced in this Bill. Although at first sight one can welcome this Bill—and I do so without reservation, because certainly this Bill is better than the Merchandise Marks Act, which it replaces—I believe that, like the recent ill-fated Patents (Employees' Inventions) Bill, it needs careful scrutiny, which I have no doubt your Lordships will give it. I give it my blessing, and I do not wish it the fate of the Patents Bill.
5.44 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I rise to speak with considerable trepidation, and I must start by offering the House an apology, because, unlike all noble Lords who have spoken so far, I must confess that I have no specialised knowledge or experience of this problem. My specialised knowledge is limited to a reading of the Molony Report and to a comparison of that Report with the present Bill. My speech will be brief, but I hope it will be the speech of an ordinary unbiased consumer.
We must continually be aware that the Bill with which we are dealing concerns a real human problem: the housewife who has been taken in by the extrava-
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gant claims of the door-to-door salesman or the bargain offers in the local Press, and finds herself having paid precious money for a shoddy article. She is not only unhappy, not only seriously out of pocket, but feels that sense of anger and frustration which any noble Lord must feel who has been taken in and who feels he has had a bad buy. She may try to fight back, and it may well be that she is no match for the smooth talking salesman, or that her case is not covered by the law. Even if she succeeds in getting her money back, she knows that the man who has tried to hoodwink her will go on to hoodwink hundreds of others.
Our answer to this must be twofold. On the one hand, by such methods as consumer education, by the work of the Consumer Council, of the British Standards Institution and of the voluntary trade associations, we must try to direct the shopper towards the reputable tested goods. But this is not enough, and this legislation provides the other side of the coin. It starts at the other end, and tries to prevent and cut down the likelihood of unscrupulous and irresponsible suppliers being able to have their way. The fact that consumer education does not go very far I believe is shown, if I may have your Lordships' permission, by an example from my own business. Here I declare a small interest. I have for a year been director of a newly established travel agency. For the last six months, because this is a newly established company, we have not had the membership of the Association of British Travel Agents. During those six months there has been considerable publicity to encourage people to book through members of the Association. But the number of clients who have asked why we are not members, or whether we shall be members, or who have drawn attention to this fact in any way, has been minimal—just one or two.
The trouble with this kind of consumer education is twofold. First, as I have tried to show, the public do not always listen, and, secondly, voluntary efforts of this kind have the support of only the reputable suppliers and manufacturers. The irresponsible and unscrupulous are kept outside, and they still have every opportunity to try as hard as they can, because the more irresponsible they are in their claims the more persuasive and

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forceful they are likely to be, and the greater danger they constitute to the housewife.
As many noble Lords have said, the Bill follows closely the recommendations of the Molony Committee. I should like to draw attention to two aspects of the Bill where it does not follow those recommendations or, in my opinion, falls a little short. The first has been dealt with by many noble Lords this afternoon—the question of oral misdescription. I think it is essential that this paragraph should remain in the Bill. In particular, I think this is so because it will be the only way of dealing with the menace of the door-to-door salesman. I was horrified to read—and I should like, if I may, to quote to your Lordships a small part—paragraph 742 of the Molony Committee Report, which says:
"We are told that they"—
that is, the door-to-door salesmen—
"are known literally to force their way over the doorstep, to remain in the house for as long as six hours at a time —sometimes until midnight or later—keeping up a hypnotic flow of persuasive sales talk."
It may well be that in the course of that six hours of conversation the salesman will make extravagant oral claims for the product which he is selling, and there must be a remedy, a sanction, of the Criminal Law against what is in effect dishonest conduct.
There are two small points upon which I should like to ask questions of the Minister. They are points upon which I do not think the Bill goes quite far enough in implementing the recommendations of the Committee. First of all, in Clause 2(1) there is the definition of a trade description. I should like to ask the Minister whether he is sure that the paragraphs in that clause, and particularly paragraph (i), really cover the case where goods are offered, usually by implication, as new goods when in fact they are not new. Paragraph (i) refers to their history, including previous ownership or use. It might well be that a false representation as to the lack of history or previous ownership might be interpreted as being outside this clause. I should like to have the opinion of my noble friend on that.
My second question concerns Clause 7. I think it is important that this clause should eventually contain a pro-
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vision that where the Board of Trade has made definitions of certain expressions, similar expressions should also come within the sanctions which are contemplated. In other words, I think it is certain that if the Board of Trade defines the word "shrinkproof" and makes the definition compulsory, the unscrupulous suppliers—and as all your Lordships have said, they are in a minority, but it is this minority with which we are dealing—will immediately change the term and use "shrink resistant", or something like that.
Subject to those two points I welcome the Bill. As my noble friend Lady Phillips rightly said, it is a measure of major importance dealing with a human problem, and I am pleased that it has come to Second Reading in your Lordships' House. Although your Lordships may know that I do not entirely agree with the composition of your Lordships' House, I think this is a very fine place in which this Bill should be initiated.
5.52 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, in rising to make a brief contribution to this debate, perhaps I ought to begin by saying that I fully join in the general welcome which this Bill has received, and therefore I am confining my remarks to inquiries which I have made as to the attitude of local authorities which are going to be entrusted with the responsibility of carrying out the provisions of the Bill. The general reaction is one of welcome for these further measures of consumer protection, coupled, of course, with a welcome for the choosing of local authorities as the responsible bodies for enforcement.
Under Clause 26 the local weights and measures authorities—that is, county boroughs and county councils and many non-county boroughs and some urban districts with a population of 60,000 or more—will have this duty. A different local government pattern of local administration might have been chosen—for example, public health authorities and food and drugs authorities—but the choice made seems to me, and to the authorities, to be reasonable. After all, the weights and measures authority has a ready-made inspectorate, trained and experienced in administrative and investigational techniques, and one that is in continuous contact with all kinds of trading activities. It is true that at present

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there is a shortage of qualified inspectors of weights and measures, but steps are being taken to overcome this, and much of the work contemplated by the Bill could be undertaken by persons without technical qualifications. Where support is required for the testing, for instance, of particular kinds of goods, it can be found in the specialist testing stations established by various agencies, such as, for instance, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.
May I say that the Association of Municipal Corporations is confident that its members will perform their new functions under this Bill to the general satisfaction of the public and the trade, Therefore I have no criticisms to make of the Bill. But there are one or two points that I would suggest need some clarification. For instance, one apparently strange provision appears in Clause 30, subsections (2) and (3). It is not clear why the enforcing authorities should have to give notice to the Board of Trade, accompanied by a summary of the facts, at least fourteen days before they take proceedings for any offence under the proposed Act. It is right that the alleged offender should be given notice and information concerning the results of the tests, as proposed by subsection (1), but the Bill nowhere expressly requires the consent of the Board of Trade to the taking of proceedings, and its consent is not required to proceedings under the Merchandise Marks Act.
If the purpose of the notice to the Board is to enable the Board to reserve to itself the power to control prosecutions, then one feels this displays an unfortunate lack of confidence in the ability of local authorities and the courts to distinguish between a frivolous and a justifiable prosecution. Subject to anything which the noble Lord opposite may have to say, one would like to see this proposal dropped. On the question of the cost of administering these new provisions I think one can anticipate that no objection would be raised by local authorities to the increased financial burden; because the costs would not be too great for any one authority.
There are one or two final small comments that I should like to make. They are perhaps comments which would be better reserved in many respects for the
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next stage of the Bill, but I will just mention them now. Clause 3, by including oral misdescription as a relevant use of a trade description, goes beyond the recommendations of the Committee on Consumer Protection, but I may say that the Association of Municipal Corporations fully supports the proposal, because the need to establish that there has been a written declaration is a limitation on the effectiveness of merchandise marks law. Oral misdescription is an offence under the weights and measures and food and drugs law, and local authorities are well aware of the need to obtain such evidence as would satisfy the courts.
The Bill is not clear, I suggest, as to the place where offences of misdescription are committed. For example, a misdescription which forms part of the packing of an article is applied at the place of manufacturing or packing, and is presumably caught by Clause 3 (1) (a), but is unlikely to be discovered until the goods are actually displayed at sonic later stage and almost certainly in a different place. The place of the commission of the offence is, of course, of importance, as it governs the venue of the hearing of the case. There seems to be no provision in the Bill to the effect that proceedings may be taken either at the place where the offence was committed or where it is detected. One feels that such a provision should be included in order to ease administration of the measure.
Clauses 7 (2) and 10 (2) provide that before making orders defining the meaning of certain expressions and the information to be given regarding certain goods, the Board shall consult representative organisations. Clause 10 (3), however, permits the Board to relax or discontinue the requirements of such orders without such consultation. This, offhand, seems to me to be wrong. Clause 11 may be another controversial clause; it is an attempt to regulate the "3d. off" and "Bargain offer" sales gimmicks. But there may be enforcement difficulties: for example, the accumulation of evidence as to what previous prices had been. But perhaps for experienced officers these may not prove insurmountable.
Clause 23, dealing with offences due to the fault of a third person, differs from the corresponding provisions of the weights and measures legislation; it is

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not immediately clear how this procedure will work, and an explanation would certainly be helpful. For instance, can the person whom the local authority intend to prosecute, by merely notifying the local authority of his intention to invoke the defence provided by this clause, put the local authority in the dilemma of proceeding against a third person as well as against the apparent offender, or awaiting a decision against the apparent offender and, if necessary, starting proceedings a second time, risking, however, that they may be out of time? With these few comments on the Bill, I wish to support the Second Reading
6.5 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, during the past few years there have been a number of Bills to give the consumer increased protection, and this latest Bill is another important measure in this cycle. In many ways it incorporates provisions from all the other Bills, the Weights and Measures Bill, the Consumer Protection Bill; and, of course, it follows closely on the Molony Report. There was, I know, for some time criticism that the Molony Report was not produced quickly enough. But it is a formidable document, one might say; and if this Bill really does justice to the Report—as it does—I think it can be said that the delay in the production of the Report was to a large extent justified.
In general, in company, I think, with most noble Lords, I welcome this Bill enthusiastically. I regard it as a genuine effort to give both the consumer and the honest and scrupulous retailer the greatest possible protection; and the only people who need fear this Bill are those who are out to break the law. Having said that, I would add that the really big test of the Bill will be over its enforcement.
Reference has already been made to oral misrepresentation, and this kind of thing is very bad. One used to hear it to quite a large extent in television advertisements, but this situation has been considerably cleaned up. But one still finds on television advertisements for various kinds of shampoos which are said to contain all kinds of products; for toothpastes, all of which claim to clean one's teeth whiter than the other. I am not clear whether this Bill will cover that kind of advertising. I should
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welcome from the noble Lord some assurance that the more pernicious of this type of advertising is covered. I am certainly not against advertising, because any firm must make its products sell by revealing their good points to the general public. I believe that standards of advertising to-day have improved tremendously, and there are very few instances where the public are being deliberately duped. But that makes it the more important that these instances are brought to light.
I should like to refer to Clause 3, which has already been mentioned. I myself have already had representations from shopkeepers fearing this clause. The usual excuse is that they cannot get sufficient trained staff. They have to have students on holiday and such-like, who are very hard-working people but naturally have not had much experience of the retail trade. But my interpretation of this clause is that it refers primarily to deliberately misleading advertising. Quite clearly, if a young shop assistant does not know the correct answer, he or she can normally contact the departmental manager, particularly if it is a large store; and it is frequently in the larger stores that this misrepresentation so often occurs. I particularly welcome Clause 12. I do not know how many producers are claiming the Royal Warrant to-day. It seems to me that there are a great many—I would suspect many too many; and while I would support the claim of the genuine claimants I feel that this Bill does a good service by exposing manufacturers who deliberately misrepresent the Royal Warrant.
Clause 8, too, I greatly welcome, having had quite a considerable hand in the regulations damning flammable nightwear for children. Of course, labelling certain articles presents a problem. It is the more important that a label is properly sewn on or attached so that it does not come off, than that there should be any claim at all. Frequently one sees paper or cloth labels tacked on to goods which will come off in the first wash. I think it is important, too, that labels should go into some detail, particularly labels on fabrics (as my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood has said), to ensure that it is quite clearly stated if they will lose their effectiveness if they are bleached or boiled incorrectly.

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One suspects that the advertising of some other products—for example, pet foods—is suspect. When advertised, each one seems to claim that it has an equal amount of liver in it. I would hope that this Bill will compel manufacturers to prove this kind of statement. I do not doubt that the reputable manufacturers of these products do their utmost to make sure that their claims are true. But, as I understand it, the present laws provide rather a loophole for the less scrupulous firms to peddle their wares without sufficient check.
Quite clearly, there will have to be lengthy discussions in Committee, particularly on the legal aspects of this Bill. But I believe that the main political Parties can be complimented by the general public for getting for the consumer and the retailer measures such as this, which are designed to give the maximum protection.
6.13 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, there are no further questions, beyond those which have already been put by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, which I want to ask about this Bill. I should not have risen at all had I not felt that it might be a little discourteous that the Bill should conclude without a final word from this Bench, particularly in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, on the most charming and graceful manner in which she has moved her first Bill in this House. I have seldom heard so long a Bill as well explained in so short a time. I think she set a good example, both of clarity and of brevity.
I should also like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, on a maiden speech which was all the more welcome because of the deep affection in which his late father was held in all parts of this House. All of us have many delightful recollections of our dealings with the late Lord Woolton. The noble Earl spoke. I think, with equal knowledge of, and equal sympathy for, the anxieties of the shopper, often working, as he said, on a tight budget, and also the difficulties which the shopkeeper often finds in trying to comply with all the new regulations, and demands by his customers, which are necessary in modern trade. The noble Earl told us that two months ago he had sold his business. I am sure that
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will be a matter of deep regret to all the numerous housewives who have been fascinated by his salesmanship in so many cities all over the United Kingdom; but their loss will be our gain, and I hope that he will now come here often and give us the benefit of his great knowledge and experience by speaking often again.
As for the Bill, I think we all welcome it in all parts of the House with very few reservations. Five or six years ago I had the duty of moving and managing in this House the first Weights and Measures Bill which covered rather similar ground. That Bill was much longer than this. It was generally agreed to in all parts of the House. The Party opposite, who were then in opposition, were most helpful in the progress of the Bill. They were so helpful that they put down no fewer than 530 Amendments to the Bill. I do not think that our gratitude will respond to their generosity quite so munificently as that, although we have already been promised by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, no fewer than 50 Amendments of his own, with which he managed to acquaint us without going through each of them seriatim. I thought perhaps they might all be justified. But our Amendments will all be moved in helpful, and not in hostile, spirit.
I think we must be careful to see that the Bill is not likely to inflict any injustice, particularly in regard to oral misrepresentation, which may be quite involuntary, and particularly also in regard to advertisements, which is a difficult subject. Many of your Lordships have given other examples where it needs close examination, and where it might possibly lead to injustice, which we must do our best to avoid.
In our debates on the Weights and Measures Bill I had to reply to a great many of the Amendments which were moved by saying that they were matters which would be dealt with later when the Molony Report was published. I think, in general, we on this side of the House would say that we think that the Molony Report is a good Report. On the whole, I think that this Bill is better the closer it keeps to the Molony Report; and although the Molony Report is by no means perfect, I think the more dubious parts of this Bill which need the closest examination are those which stray

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furthest from the Molony Report. But we shall do our best to make our help in Committee as brief as we can.
It is of course a little difficult to have the Second Reading of a Bill only nine or ten days after its publication. I do not complain about that, because it is very much to the convenience of Parliament as a whole, both of your Lordships' House and of the other place, that some major Bills like this should be introduced fairly early in the Session in your Lordships' House. It makes for far greater efficiency of the Parliamentary machine as a whole, and I do not think we ought to complain that in seeking to do this it has been necessary to have the Second Reading rather soon after the publication of the Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, said that she thinks housewives will be delighted with this Bill; and the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, claimed that the Bill is a best seller and that the Stationery Office was cleaned out of copies of the Bill on the first day of publication. I do not know whether this was because all the trade associations were in such a hurry to find out what they were being made liable for, or whether it was due to the tremendous boost given to the Bill by Mr. Crossman in a television speech the night before the Bill was published, which also happened to be the night before the North Hull by-election. When I listened to that speech I could not help feeling that it might he a good thing that the penal provisions of this Bill do not apply to political speeches which, although not false, may sometimes be misleading, and which, although not deliberately calculated to deceive, may nevertheless be likely to create an incorrect impression. I wish that all the Government's measures and all their policies, instead of causing prices to rise, were as likely to benefit the housewife as this Bill may be expected to do.
6.22 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD of TRADE (LORD RHODES): My Lords, I would begin by congratulating my noble friend Lady Phillips. She presented the Bill with a felicity that warmed our hearts. I hope she will have many more chances during the Committee stage to answer many of
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the points that will be raised. In regard to the maiden contribution by the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, I entirely agree with my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry that we on this side of the House used to respect his father, but for different reasons from those for which the other side used to respect him. He was, I think, the finest Chairman the Tory Party ever had.
Many questions have been asked during the course of the debate, I calculate that there must have been about 80 of them—far more than I thought likely at the time when I set out on this Bill. I do not pretend to know the answers to all, but I have the answers to many. A good many of them are Committee points, but I will do my best. We have had a full debate, which has shown the vast interest of many noble Lords in these matters. Some of the doughty campaigners who, through the years, have worked for this legislation have expressed satisfaction this afternoon—which of itself is something. There has been general agreement on many of the Bill's provisions. Some have been criticised, but not so deeply as to move anybody to say that they are antagonistic in any way to the Bill. A number of interesting points have been raised, and I will try to deal with as many as possible.
Before doing so, I should like to turn to a point which was made by my noble friend in her opening speech. Speaking of the structure of the Bill and the problems of marking, she told your Lordships that we intended to repeal the Merchandise Marks Act 1926, on which I have been asked a number of questions, with the rest of the merchandise marks legislation, and to assimilate origin marking requirements with the other labelling requirements for which the Bill provides powers. This would appear to be logical. It helps to bring our origin marking legislation up to date and to remove from it the slur of "protectionism" which has been levelled against it. Under the Bill, the requirement to mark the goods with origin will apply not only to imported goods but also to those produced in the United Kingdom. This should be a matter of satisfaction to all our trading partners to whom we have obligations not to operate such regulations in a way which affords protection to domestic producers.

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Secondly, although this does not appear on the face of the Bill, any requirements to mark imported goods with origin will be made only under the power provided by the Bill unless they are made either wholly or partly for agricultural reasons, where special considerations apply and for which the criteria in the Bill are not wholly appropriate, as, for example, in the case of seeds. Under whatever legislation they were made, requirements would not be made except in accordance with our international obligations. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will understand that situation perfectly when one remembers all the negotiations which he and his Department had with EFTA in earlier years. Any orders made under the Bill would be made jointly with the Agricultural Ministers in appropriate cases as provided by Clause 36. For the next three years, the orders made under the 1926 Act will remain in operation unless, in the meantime, they are superseded by orders made under the criteria in the Bill. At the end of that time they will cease to have effect.
I should like to say a word about the amendment of definition of trade description which has exercised the minds of many people in the House this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, would like us to provide that a trade description should be false or misleading "in a material respect". We gave some consideration to this point when drafting the Bill, and we omitted it for very sound reasons. The term is ambiguous. It could mean "as to some matter which is important". In this sense the term, if added to "false or misleading", is both unnecessary and confusing, in our opinion. In Clause 2 the Bill lays down those matters which are important in describing goods. If a description is false as to one of these matters it is an offence. We want to avoid any suggestion that the court must discriminate between such matters and to say, for example, that for plastic goods to be described as "gold", to take that as an example, is an offence because this is important, but to describe the same goods as "brass" is not an offence because, although this is false, it is not important. This is the sort of confusing distinction which we want to avoid. This is the kind of matter we can hammer out during the Committee stage.
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"In a material respect" could mean "to a substantial degree". In this sense, too, it is really unnecessary in the context of the Bill. The courts are well able to disregard trifling inaccuracies in deciding whether a statement is true or false. I can see that on matters of this sort the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, cannot wait for the Committee stage; I think we shall have a very entertaining time. On the other hand, we have had a plea from my noble friend Lord Peddie for the definition of trade descriptions to be extended so as to include descriptions which are misleading by ambiguity or omission and which rely for their effect not so much on the stated fact as on the impression formed in the mind of the recipient. I think that if my noble friend will look carefully at Clauses 2 and 5 he will find that this criticism is not altogether justified. Their combined effect is to penalise anything which creates a false impression as to any of the matters which constitute a trade description.
What we have not done, and did not intend to do, is to include in these matters things which might be subjective, as an omission might be. It has been our aim to make this Bill workable in the courts, and to require them to give decisions on matters which cannot be objectively assessed is, in our view, placing too big a burden on the courts. If there are advertisements which err in this way, they are, I am sure, better left, for the time being at any rate, to the voluntary control which has been set up by the advertising industry and which they have entrusted to the able hands of its independent Chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. May I say that he did not need to tell us this afternoon that he had experience in this field, as it was self-evident all the time he was speaking?
As your Lordships will see, on the one hand we have a request to limit the operation of the Bill by introducing the words "in a material respect". On the other hand, we are asked to widen its scope by including not only what is there in a trade description, but also what is not there. Given these pulls in two opposite directions, we feel that we have done very well to steer such a straightforward middle course.
I come now to oral misdescriptions. My noble friend, in her opening speech, can have left your Lordships in no doubt

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that we are well aware that there is criticism of the introduction of oral misdescription as an offence. As she told your Lordships, this is no innovation in British consumer legislation. Oral misdescription is an offence under the food and drugs legislation, and it looks as if it may have proved a good deterrent. At any rate, there is no record of any prosecution having been brought in the last three years, and if there were any earlier they were extremely rare. Oral misdescription is also an offence under the Weights and Measures Act 1963. It is too soon after the coming into operation of that Act to draw any conclusions at this stage.
I know that the Molony Committee were hesitant about this question, and finally came down against making oral misdescription an offence. They thought that this might possibly inhibit retailers from giving information and advice, as was suggested by my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry during the course of her speech. This may prove to be true in some cases, but is it not better for the consumer to be given no information than to be given the wrong information, which is precisely what the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, said in the course of her speech?
Many of your Lordships may have read the recent letter in The Times on this subject from the Director of the Consumer Council, in which he made the point that it makes no difference to the customer whether the lie is a spoken one or a written one. Mention was made of Clause 3(2), and of the position of employee and employer in regard to oral statements. An employee who makes a false oral statement about goods when serving a customer will commit an offence, unless one of the defences in Clauses 22 or 23 is available. If he or she can show that the misstatement was due to a genuine mistake, and that reasonable steps to avoid making the misstatement had been taken, that is sufficient to ensure acquittal under Clause 22. I will not go over the possibilities in this field. I think we can very well leave that until the Committee stage. Nor will I mention the aspect of safety at the moment, as that has been well covered. In the Consumer Protection Act 1961, the Home Office took adequate care of that, but this Bill may, I think, prove a
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useful complement to that Act, because of the provisions under Clause 9 in regard to advertisements.
I should like to say a word about the new powers, because there have been a good many comments about enforcement. We do not know entirely how we are going to use these powers. We have been very careful in drafting these enabling powers, both to require marking of goods and the giving of information in advertisements, and to issue statutory definitions of terms very widely so that they can be used flexibly. We have deliberately not laid down any rules for initiating any requests for the use of the powers. It may be that the Board of Trade themselves will want, in a particular case, arising from their departmental experience, to introduce a marking regulation or to define a trade term, although I do not think this is very likely.
We are very much in the hands of the population in this field, and it is open to anybody to approach us for action. Perhaps we shall hear from the consumer organisations or from particular trades; but we must wait and see. The only way in which we have tied our hands, which answers one or two of the questions put this afternoon—and I am sure your Lordships will approve of this—is by making it clear that orders will be made under the new powers only after adequate consultation with all bodies has taken place. We shall not use the powers lightly or frivolously, and in making our orders we shall clearly find it necessary to draw on the experience of those who are already practised in the drawing up of requirements of this kind, such as the British Standards Institution. In fact, this is a case where no holds are barred and no doors are shut.
The question of false statements about travel and tourism was brought up, just as it was last week, only then it was in a more ample form. We had a long discussion last week, and I shall not go over all the ground I covered then, though I must say something about it. As I assured the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, on that occasion, we have tried in this Bill to provide some protection in this field for the consumer. My noble friend Lady Phillips explained in her speech that we have had to tread rather carefully in the field of services, of which this is one, because we must

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not do anything to bring straightforward matters of contract within the scope of a criminal Statute. We have therefore tried to draw up, in the field of services and accommodation, and facilities, a set of offences which are analogous to those which the Bill provides in relation to goods. By this I mean that we are making false statements about services an offence, although, for the reasons my noble friend gave when she opened the debate, these statements must be made knowingly or recklessly where services are concerned. I should like to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, now that Clause 13 would cover the question of advertisements with regard to travel and tourism.
Perhaps I could draw your Lordships' attention to the word "reckless", and to the paragraph in the clause about services which makes it clear that a statement made regardless of whether it is true or false shall be deemed to have been made recklessly. I think this should help to solve a good many of the problems arising from statements made about accommodation that is being offered. Your Lordships will also have noticed that in the clause about services we have not only specified "accommodation" but have also spoken about "location" and "amenities" of any accommodation. As I hope your Lordships will agree, we have given a lot of thought to the way in which the holidaymaker can be bamboozled in advance, and we have done our best to cover the position. Of course, this Bill cannot do everything.
My noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry spoke of guarantees and of exclusion clauses in contracts, and there may be something in what she said. We will look at this; and we shall have an opportunity of discussing it on the Committee stage, However, I must point out that this is not altogether a matter that is appropriate to this Bill. I must say that it has more to do with the Law Commission; and in their First Report they have recommended that a study be made of the question of exemption by contract from Common Law liabilities. I think we must leave this matter to be dealt with in this way.
As to enforcement, again I should like to make a few comments on this subject. There has been some suggestion this after-
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noon that the Board of Trade should undertake the enforcement of the new legislation. My Lords, this is not really a practical proposition. The Molony Committee recognised that the Board of Trade did not possess the country-wide organisation or the large body of inspectors necessary to police the law, and they thought that this sort of task was unsuited for a Government Department. I must say that I agree with them. This is a job for the local authorities, whose weights and measures inspectors have been commended by many speakers today and who already have a great deal of experience in this field. I was happy to hear the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, expressing himself as he did, saying that they are ready, and that many of them are anxious, to take on this job.
This does not mean that the Board of Trade will lose interest in the matter with the Act on the Statute Book. I know that the advertising industry, although they welcome the Bill as a whole, are worried about the possibility of a number of prosecutions throughout the country arising from one advertisement. But the Board of Trade are going to be kept informed of pending prosecutions—this is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, made and we shall have power to call for reports from local authorities, as well as of instituting inquiries. So we shall be keeping an eye on things. The advertising industry have referred to the possibility of a wrong verdict of one local magistrates' court severely disrupting a national advertising campaign. That is quite a proper point to make, but I may say that this is a remote possibility, and the law of our country provides for appeals in such cases, anyway.
Moreover, the Board of Trade will also be able to prosecute, and we may well find ourselves doing this in cases of national interest—perhaps where a piece of national advertising is concerned, for instance, and where prosecution by the Board of Trade may not only help the consumer but avoid the wasting of a lot of time and money by a number of prosecutions up and down the country. I can give the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, the assurance for which he asked on this point. But it would not, I think, be wise to go further than this at this stage and to make promises about how the Board

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of Trade might use this power. However, we shall certainly be watching the position.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Lord has been very good, but I wonder whether I might ask him this point, because it is causing a good deal of anxiety in the country. Is it contemplated that the Board of Trade will ever take over cases from local weights and measures authorities? Also, can they stop a local weights and measures authority from taking proceedings where the Board of Trade think that such proceedings ought not to be taken, or in order that the Board of Trade may themselves conduct a prosecution?
LORD RHODES: Yes, I think that would be so. I think that that is implied. If it were on the scale that I have suggested, it would need a central organisation like the Board of Trade to take up a national prosecution. But we can come to that point on the Committee stage.
My Lords, one or two points were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, about the inclusion of scent or taste.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend, if he is leaving the subject of advertising? Can he give any indication of the Government's thinking with regard to Clause 9(3)? He will remember that I asked him specifically what was meant by "any person"—whether this was the television company or the newspaper.
LORD RHODES: There again, I could go on all night answering specific questions, and we should never be finished. If the noble Lady does not mind, I will defer a reply to her until the Committee stage.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I do not wish to be unhelpful, my Lords, but I think this is a general question. The noble Lord got the point about guarantees wrong, because that really was not the point I asked, but I am leaving that until the Committee stage. But I would ask him whether he is aware that it is a matter of particular interest to industry and to the advertising profession who is the advertiser in respect of these advertisements about which he has been talking and about which prosecutions may arise. I did ask him quite specifically whether this was the television
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company, the advertising agency or the manufacturer, and as to where the accusation would lie.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, if I mistook the gist of the question, I apologise. I have not got the answer, but I will get it.
The noble Lord, Lord Cawley, mentioned the inclusion of scent or taste. I do not want to go into that in detail. Perhaps that could be raised on the Committee stage, too. Then, as to the extension of Clause 12 and the Royal Warrants, that is a "continuing" provision which repeats Section 20 of the 1887 Act, but in a clearer form and one more appropriate to the general approach of the Bill, which is intended to protect the consumer against misrepresentation in the field of trade. The clause deals with those forms of misrepresentation based on prestige appeal which in our experience are most common and which are in any case capable of simple demarcation. I am not prepared to argue the case any further at the moment. If the noble Lord wants it to be brought out in more detail later, during the Committee stage, I shall be very pleased to deal with it further then.
The answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, which I have now got, is that the advertiser would be anyone who had responsibility for the contents of the advertisement. If the noble Lady thinks that she is going to pursue me on this point this evening, she is quite mistaken, because this, I contend, is a Committee point, and I hope that she will leave it there.
With regard to enforcement, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Cawley, I think that also is a Committee stage point, as is the replacement of the word "calculated" by "likely." "Calculated" is a widely used legal term with recognised connotations. We should, nevertheless, be ready to consider this suggestion sympathetically. This is the same point as that made by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. The answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, about whether Clause 2(1) is sufficient to cover goods sold as new which are not new, is, Yes. With regard to the point about Clause 7(1) and whether a Board of Trade definition such as "shrinkproof" would cover similar expressions such as "shrink-resistant", the answer is that it

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could do so if provision were made in the order. Each order will be adapted to meet the purpose for which it is made. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, asked for an assurance that statements in advertisements —I think he mentioned toothpaste in this connection—would be caught by the Bill. I can assure the noble Lord that any statement made in an advertisement which would amount to a false trade description would certainly be caught.
My Lords, I apologise if in the time that I have allowed myself, I have not been able satisfactorily to answer every point in detail. I understand that we shall have ample time to discuss this Bill in Committee. I sincerely hope that every noble Lord who has made a contribution to the debate will assist us in the Committee stage to make it a better Bill, because there is no doubt that when this House sets its mind to improving a Bill it can and does improve it. My experience with any Bill that I have had to do with in this House is that it has been considerably improved by the attention of noble Lords during its progress through this House. This is an important Bill. I think it is a good Bill. It has had the commendation of every speaker in the House this afternoon, and I am sure that, with me, all noble Lords look forward to the opportunity that we shall have in later stages for its further consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SOUTHERN RHODESIA (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) (TOBACCO) ORDER 1966
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that he had received, under the proviso of Section 4 of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, a notification that the Southern Rhodesia (Prohibited Exports) (Tobacco) Order 1966 had come into operation before being laid before Parliament, with an explanation thereof.
The said notification and explanation was ordered to lie on the Table.

SOUTHERN RHODESIA (PROHIBITED EXPORTS AND IMPORTS) ORDER 1966
Southern Rhodesia (Prohibited Exports) (Tobacco) Order 1966, dated 7th February 1966, made by the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Statutory Instrument) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NATIONAL OPINION POLL ON 70 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT
  NATIONAL OPINION POLL ON 70 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT